Are There Untold Truths About Paige Patterson?

“In this difficult situation, the Executive Committee based its decision on the current performance of the president and did not allow the legacy of Dr. Patterson or the #MeToo pressure to steer the outcome. We did not react; rather, we decisively exercised our responsibility based on the Seminary’s biblically informed core values and integrity.”

Kevin Ueckert, Chairman of SWBTS Board of Trustees

https://twitter.com/_PPatterson_/mediaPaige Patterson

I am continuing to follow the Paige Patterson debacle with great interest since I am a Southern Baptist. As I have previously mentioned, I was once a member of the same Baptist church as the Pattersons. When my family joined that congregation, Dr. Patterson had just ended his two-year stint as president of the Southern Baptist Convention and was serving as president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS).

My most vivid memory of him in that church occurred one Mother’s Day when he delivered the sermon. It was my first time ever hearing him preach. When the service concluded I walked up to him and introduced myself, greeting him with a handshake. I felt compelled to tell him that the next time he saw his good friend Adrian Rogers, please let him know that his messages have had a profound impact on a woman in Raleigh. I used to watch Dr. Rogers every Thursday morning at 7 a.m. on cable (via WGN in Chicago). FYI – we have moved our membership several times since then.

The first time I ever attended a chapel service at SEBTS was in September 2003 when John MacArthur came to speak. Even though Dr. Patterson had been appointed president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary earlier that summer, I seem to recall that he introduced Dr. MacArthur.

As I reflect back on that time, it is now heart-wrenching to learn that a female student at Southeastern Seminary had been ‘allegedly’ raped by her boyfriend, also a seminary student, just months earlier. Based on what I have read, it was Paige Patterson’s mishandling of this situation that led to his being fired by the Trustees at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Here is how the local news reported it late last week. (sorry about the small size of the video below – couldn’t figure out how to make it larger).

On Friday, June 1, Kevin Ueckert, Chairman of the SWBTS Board of Trustees, issued this statement:

Based on a number of follow-up questions I have received this week, I am providing this additional statement related to our May 30, 2018 statement. The unanimous decision by the Executive Committee to immediately terminate Dr. Paige Patterson was prayerfully considered and warranted.

We confirmed this week through a student record, made available to me with permission, that an allegation of rape was indeed made by a female student at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in 2003. This information contradicts a statement previously provided by Dr. Patterson in response to a direct question by a Board member regarding the incident referenced in our May 30 statement. The 2003 rape allegation was never reported to local law enforcement. SWBTS will not release the student record to the public without additional appropriate permissions.

In addition, as previously disclosed, a female student at SWBTS reported to Dr. Patterson that she had been raped in 2015.  Police were notified of that report. But in connection with that allegation of rape, Dr. Patterson sent an email (the contents of which were shared with the Board on May 22) to the Chief of Campus Security in which Dr. Patterson discussed meeting with the student alone so that he could “break her down” and that he preferred no officials be present. The attitude expressed by Dr. Patterson in that email is antithetical to the core values of our faith and to SWBTS. Moreover, the correlation between what has been reported and also revealed in the student record regarding the 2003 allegation at Southeastern and the contents of this email are undeniable.

Further, SWBTS received a request from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary requesting the return of any documents taken by Dr. Patterson upon his departure from Southeastern. Counsel for SWBTS, Michael Anderson, immediately reached out to counsel for Dr. Patterson, Shelby Sharpe, on May 25 and made inquiry regarding the documents. Mr. Sharpe advised Mr. Anderson that Dr. Patterson only took documents from Southeastern that belonged to him. Yet, independent of that request, following the May 30 Executive Committee meeting, SWBTS located Southeastern documents on the SWBTS campus and began taking steps to preserve them.  Mr. Anderson is in contact with George Harvey, counsel for Southeastern, and is working with Mr. Harvey regarding Southeastern’s request for the return of its documents.

The morning after the May 30 Executive Committee meeting, Mr. Sharp provided a few documents he reportedly obtained from Dr. Patterson. The documents clearly dealt with Dr. Patterson’s tenure at Southeastern and should have been previously provided in response to Mr. Anderson’s May 25 request. Shortly after these documents were provided, the wife of Dr. Patterson’s Chief of Staff published a blog and attached these documents without the permission of the students referenced in the documents or appropriate leadership from SEBTS or SWBTS. I believe this was inappropriate and unethical. Regardless, the additional documents do not alter the decision of the Executive Committee.

Ultimately, the decision of the Executive Committee to immediately terminate Dr. Patterson was clear and unanimous.

I also want to reiterate what SWBTS Interim President Dr. Jeffrey Bingham said earlier this week.  SWBTS denounces all abusive behavior, any behavior that enables abuse, any failure to protect the abused, and any failure to safeguard those who are vulnerable to abuse.

In this difficult situation, the Executive Committee based its decision on the current performance of the president and did not allow the legacy of Dr. Patterson or the #MeToo pressure to steer the outcome. We did not react; rather, we decisively exercised our responsibility based on the Seminary’s biblically informed core values and integrity.

I join Dr. Bingham in his call for the SWBTS community to join the Body of Christ in praying for healing for all individuals affected by abuse.

During Paige Patterson’s tenure as SWBTS president, another female seminary student was ‘allegedly’ raped in 2015, with the police being notified this time. What is much more disturbing is this portion of Ueckert’s statement:

But in connection with that allegation of rape, Dr. Patterson sent an email (the contents of which were shared with the Board on May 22) to the Chief of Campus Security in which Dr. Patterson discussed meeting with the student alone so that he could “break her down” [emphasis mine] and that he preferred no officials be present.

In the wee hours of the morning on May 23, the Board terminated Patterson. Then a week later he was stripped of all of his retirement perks (while he was out of the country, I might add…)

In a stunning move, Sharayah Colter, the wife of Paige Patterson’s (former) chief of staff, Scott Colter released a statement May 31 defending Patterson and refuting the allegations against him. Her post is entitled:

The untold truth: Facts surrounding Paige Patterson and his removal from SWBTS

It’s good she revealed that she is solely responsible for the post and the information it contains because she may have violated some confidentiality laws. She took screen shots of the 2003 correspondence to Paige Patterson from Megan (Nichols) Lively (who revealed her identity via Twitter on May 28, two days before Shari’ah’s post). Sharayah claims that Paige Patterson doesn’t recall meeting with Megan.

With regard to the second accusation of rape (at SWBTS), it has been revealed that Patterson notified the police and the one being accused admitted to the sexual ‘incident’ but said that it was consensual.

Then there is the accusation that Patterson said that a wife should stay with her abusive husband (see the twisted version in screen shot below):

Sharayah Colter concludes with this (see screen shot below):

https://sbcissues.wordpress.com/2018/05/31/the-untold-truth-facts-surrounding-paige-patterson-and-his-removal-from-swbts-by-sharayah-colter/

Earlier today another statement was released. It begins as follows:

Given the wide-spread misrepresentation and misinformation regarding Dr. Patterson, it is important to set the facts straight. Insofar as they continue to be misrepresented publicly, accurate and appropriate responses will be issued.

This media release is in response to a release late Friday afternoon, June 1, 2018, from Kevin Ueckert, chairman of the board of trustees of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SWBTS), concerning an executive committee decision of May 30, 2018, to terminate Dr. Patterson immediately.

The sole purpose of this release is to set forth facts and to put into perspective the committee’s decision and the way in which that decision was made.

I strongly encourage you to read the entire statement, which I plan to discuss in an upcoming post. Can you imagine what’s gonna happen in a week when SBC messengers converge in Dallas?

Will Paige Patterson be addressing the assembly? These are unprecedented times in the Southern Baptist Convention!


Comments

Are There Untold Truths About Paige Patterson? — 243 Comments

  1. Ian,

    Incidentally, we’ve heard good reports of the welcome you afforded Dee down in That London. Lesley and I clearly have a hard act to follow! We’ll do our best.

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  2. The whole saga reads like a combination Thriller novel and book of Esther all rolled into one. Chapter 12: Lawyer Attempts Damage Control

    A fight doesn’t really seem wise though (or even possible) given the number of people stepping forward- the librarian saying documents were stolen, the former SWBTS employee who testifies to unethical bending of rules in admissions. Documents which Patterson couldn’t produce at a board meeting he called, now suddenly showing up in the hands of his assistant’s wife. New people testifying every day on the web to what they saw and heard the man do. Does he really not understand what is happening?

    Mr. Patterson has said women should not take their cases to public court against husbands because it would be a bad witness. Ha! I guess it’s ok for him to do it.

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  3. Incidentally, another very slow journey in prospect this morning; the slow train in front of us is very late again. We’ve caught up with its signalling path already and we’ve not even gone through Falkirk yet.

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  4. And I am supposed to respect this kind of leadership? How many times have we all heard Protestants bash Roman Catholicism?

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  5. Oh, another thought. Are any of the “principals” involved in this “Paige Patterson” train wreck members of a 9Marks Church? I think we should report them to the 9Marks organization for disciplinary action…. clearly non-truths are being told somewhere in this mess..

    Oops, silly me, 9Marks disciplne is only for “pew peons”, not for church leaders/big shots, like we learned with another fiasco associated with good old “CJ” and the leader of 9Marks himself!

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  6. Fisher: Mr. Patterson has said women should not take their cases to public court against husbands because it would be a bad witness. Ha! I guess it’s ok for him to do it.

    Actually, so far he’s being consistent. Not that hiring Peacemakers is necessarily a good idea, but it does come right from his playbook. I did notice in the SEBTS statement that they don’t explicitly say they’ll never sue in a secular court.

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  7. Grainne: Peacemakers is a very bad idea. GRACE should be called in

    I am not totally convinced of that. Once money has changed hands then disinterested objectivity is compromised, regardless of what organization is involved.

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  8. Grainne:
    Peacemakers is a very bad idea. GRACE should be called in.

    GRACE does have a lot better reputation and track record than Peacemakers.

    Peacemakers is just a weapon-for-hire for the rich and powerful and Righteous.

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  9. Fisher: Mr. Patterson has said women should not take their cases to public court against husbands because it would be a bad witness. Ha! I guess it’s ok for him to do it.

    RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.

    And Rank Bestowed by Divine Right Hath the Most Privileges of All.

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  10. Fisher: A fight doesn’t really seem wise though (or even possible) given the number of people stepping forward- the librarian saying documents were stolen, the former SWBTS employee who testifies to unethical bending of rules in admissions. Documents which Patterson couldn’t produce at a board meeting he called, now suddenly showing up in the hands of his assistant’s wife. New people testifying every day on the web to what they saw and heard the man do. Does he really not understand what is happening?

    No.
    He is from Planet Patterson, where All Bend the Knee in Reverence to Him and no other reality is possible.
    WHO has taxidermy trophy heads on his walls?
    WHO is on the Stained Glass Window in the Holy of Holies?

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  11. In the sbcvoices item:

    https://sbcvoices.com/breaking-statement-from-sebts-administration-on-internal-investigation-patterson-documents/

    this line:

    “We [i.e. SEBTS administration] have made a request to Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SWBTS) and are working amicably with the institution to preserve and return all documents that are the property of SEBTS to our campus in Wake Forest.”

    caught my attention, especially “to preserve”. Are they concerned that documents might be destroyed to prevent their return?

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  12. “Will Paige Patterson be addressing the assembly?”

    Dr. Patterson is scheduled to deliver two messages at SBC-Dallas: a report on the evangelism task force (which he chairs) and the convention sermon. They are back-to-back talks, so Patterson would be on stage for an hour or so. I don’t see either happening. I believe the messengers gathered there will attempt to call for a special vote to remove him from the program, if he doesn’t voluntarily withdraw. The convention center will be abuzz with New Calvinists who have never liked him, as well as previous pro-Patterson folks who are not so supportive of him these days.

    I’m not sure about the parliamentary procedure for doing that, however. The long-time SBC parlimentarian, Barry McCarty, who presides over rules of order at the convention would have to get involved. A couple of interesting side-notes about McCarty: (1) he “converted” to the SBC a few years ago after a long affiliation with the Disciples of Christ denomination (not sure why the SBC had a non-SBC member advising SBC Presidents in this capacity for nearly 30 years?), and (2) Patterson honored McCarty for his role during the Conservative Resurgence by depicting him on one of the SWBTS chapel stained glass windows.

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  13. I beg to differ with the comment that they were not reactionary to the me too movement. If it were not for that movement none of this wold have come to light in the first place!

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  14. SBC Voices is down, apparently our web service decided we were using too much bandwidth for a site on an unlimited plan. One of the team is working on getting us transferred, but for the moment, we are not visible in all places.

    East Coast was working better than Mid-US. DNS settings are working through it, but there are some complications because the couple of guys who really run the place don’t actually own it, the guy who owns it doesn’t get involved much and has a real job, and you have to get the owner to approve some of the changes.

    On a comment above—the hiring of Dr. McCarty as Parliamentarian “back in the day” was intentionally seeking a person who was a certified parliamentarian, a Christian, but who had no connections to either side of the “Resurgence” and was, therefore, impartial. That’s why we had a non-SBC advising, he was an expert on Robert’s Rules. We’ve long also had associate parliamentarians that are SBC. It was a good idea then…I wondered how long it would take before we recognized that Dr. McCarty becoming SBC and working for an SBC entity could be a problem.

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  15. Are There Untold Truths About Paige Patterson?

    Well, there is that Paul Pressler lawsuit still pending. Patterson has been accused of participating in the alleged cover up Pressler’s sexual abuse of young men. Patterson & Pressler were co-architects of SBC’s Conservative Resurgence. I’m starting to feel sick again.

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  16. And all the stained glass windows need to go. We’re not an illiterate society needing windows to teach history. Want to build a “hall of fame?” That’s another story–and more like a museum. The Baptist Sainthood Society needs to be dissolved.

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  17. This whole thing is such a cluster. And that Colter person made a fool of herself.

    I did not like the reference to the #metoo movement pressure being referred to in a negative way. I think everyone needs to examine themselves on this.

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  18. Lea: This whole thing is such a cluster. And that Colter person made a fool of herself.

    I did not like the reference to the #metoo movement pressure being referred to in a negative way. I think everyone needs to examine themselves on this.

    Two things are most likely contributing to Ms. Colter’s position on this: (1) she has bought the hard-core version of the “beauty of complimentarity” and (2) her husband, Patterson’s chief of staff, lost his job – bitterness may be setting in.

    Indeed, as you note, the time has come for Southern Baptists to examine themselves. This is a test.

    “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?” (2 Cor 13:5).

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  19. FW Rez: Max: Perhaps McCarty should recuse himself from SBC-Dallas!

    Baptist Blogger’s appeal: https://baptist-blogger.com/2018/03/19/convention-parliamentarian-must-recuse-himself-from-southwestern-matters/

    Well, looks like someone thought of that before me! However, since “The Baptist Blogger” sent that appeal to SBC leadership, a lot of water has flowed under the bridge! Frank Page (copied on the letter) lost his job as President/CEO of SBC’s Executive Committee due to moral failure and Patterson was terminated. McCarty may recuse himself just so he wouldn’t have to go to SBC-Dallas! It’s going to be a zoo there!

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  20. Headless Unicorn Guy: GRACE does have a lot better reputation and track record than Peacemakers.

    Peacemakers is just a weapon-for-hire for the rich and powerful and Righteous.

    My impression from past reading is that an abuser or enabler calls Peacemakers in when they want to muzzle the victim and control (shut down) any further flow of information.

    Sort of like a rich philanderer getting his bits on the side to sign non-disclosure agreements. Except it’s all done biblically and usually involves victim blaming, sin leveling, and no compensation for such things as therapy or damages.

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  21. Max: Patterson honored McCarty for his role during the Conservative Resurgence by depicting him on one of the SWBTS chapel stained glass windows.

    I have no words anymore for this stuff…

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  22. Jeffrey Chalmers: Oh, another thought. Are any of the “principals” involved in this “Paige Patterson” train wreck members of a 9Marks Church?

    Patterson’s and Colter’s pastor was with them in Germany when this whole thing went down. The church recently (either just before or after the May 22 meeting) gave Patterson the obligatory standing ovation. I don’t think discipline is in the forecast.

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  23. Kevin Ueckert:
    “We did not react; rather, we decisively exercised our responsibility based on the Seminary’s biblically informed core values and integrity.”

    Integrity? Then why didn’t you do it years ago? Integrity can be defined as what you do when no one is looking. Unfortunately it is amazing how much pressure must be applied before some organizations do the right thing. Then their spokesman comes out to say the public pressure did not motivate them, if anything Ueckert’s statement solidifies the opposite conclusion.

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  24. Grainne: Peacemakers is a very bad idea. GRACE should be called in.

    I think it’s time for the lawyers, myself.

    There are so many facets to this, let me briefly mention what they are:

    1) Patterson’s employment. We don’t know if Patterson had a contract or was an at-will employee. While there’s an assumption that he had a contract while president of SWBTS, we don’t know for sure. And even if he had a contract as president, did he have one as president emeritus? You might think so, but the decision to move Patterson from president to president emeritus was taken quickly. It’s possible there was no contract (he was an at will employee) or he left for Europe without signing a contract.

    Of course, all of this could be resolved if we knew about the terms of his employment. Patterson’s supporters have been wailing about how SWBTS didn’t give him due process and allow him to hear the evidence against him. The problem with that is this is a private employer, not a government entity. SWBTS doesn’t have to provide him with the chance to answer unless it is a documented part of its internal process (i.e., in an employment handbook) or part of Patterson’s contract, if he has one. Otherwise, SWBTS could have acted as it did (assuming there aren’t other factors involved).

    2) The purloined documents. These do not appear to be Paige Patterson’s personal documents, but the property of SEBTS, and SEBTS is asserting ownership over them. If Patterson wasn’t the owner of the documents, he couldn’t hand them over to Sharayah Colter for posting on the Internet without possible consequences attaching. Also, if the documents were part of student records, SEBTS, Patterson and possibly Colter could be facing charges for disclosing documents under FERPA. (SEBTS for not appropriately protecting the dovmcs and Patterson and Colter for disseminating them).

    3) The purloined documents, part 2. Posting those documents with the intention of hurting Megan Lively. It is entirely possible that Oatterson and Colter could be sued civilly for invasion of privacy, defamation and intentional infliction of emotional distress. (A good lawyer would also find reasons to bring in SWBTS and SEBTS as the deep pockets.) It’s possible that Ms. Lively won’t sue. But given the badmouthing going on in various crevices of the Internet, she might be tired of being bashed by worshipers of Paige Patterson and wants to put a stop to it.

    This is just a bare review of the possible legal issues involved. None of this should be taken as legal advice, your legal counsel may differ, your mileage may vary.

    IMHO, Patterson and his worshipers would do well to shut up and make amends. And, again, bring in the lawyers. When you get into federal law and civil torts territory, you’re way beyond the remit of Peacemakers or GRACE.

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  25. Bob:
    The release of facts in response to further accusations against terminated SWBTS president Paige Patterson From Shelby Sharpe Sharpe, personal attorney for Dr. Pattersonhttp://www.sbcissues.com

    Ah, reminiscent of what Patterson did to Dilday, except Patterson treated Dilday worse – and Dilday wasn’t protecting rapists and treating women as chattel …….
    I wonder if Patterson is familiar with the words, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”?

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  26. Nancy2(Kevlar): Dilday wasn’t protecting rapists and treating women as chattel …….

    No, Dilday’s sin was that he was a moderate conservative – he preferred the term “constructive conservative.” The fundamentalists didn’t want to make room for Dilday in the new SBC. Now, there’s another new SBC and its leaders are using the same methods the fundamentalists used to bring in a new kingdom. While MeToo may be driving the change right now, there’s other bad stuff going on in SBC ivory towers that is not pleasing to God. It’s all about control and power in high places.

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  27. Max: Patterson honored McCarty for his role during the Conservative Resurgence by depicting him on one of the SWBTS chapel stained glass windows.

    How close was his Stained Glass Window to that of The Great One?

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  28. I, too, am a Southern Baptist woman who is watching this situation unfold. At first I was ready to rush to judgment. Now, I am not so sure. Yes, times they are a-changin’. I don’t think this will be resolved quickly and I think that all Southern Baptists should start asking ourselves the hard questions. Perhaps the reason our numbers are shrinking is that we are no longer gospel-focused, and have devolved into a theological abyss created by obsession with systematic theologies and micro-managing how families operate.

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  29. Max: No, Dilday’s sin was that he was a moderate conservative – he preferred the term “constructive conservative.”

    They preferred the term “Ideological Traitor and Apostate”.

    Just like among the Taliban & ISIS, being More Devout a True Believer than Thou is a survival edge.

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  30. Lea: Max: Patterson honored McCarty for his role during the Conservative Resurgence by depicting him on one of the SWBTS chapel stained glass windows.

    I have no words anymore for this stuff…

    I have to say that Patterson assembled an odd group for those windows, but finding McCarty there – not even a Southern Baptist during the Conservative Resurgence (?!) – is very peculiar.

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  31. Bystander: I think that all Southern Baptists should start asking ourselves the hard questions. Perhaps the reason our numbers are shrinking is that we are no longer gospel-focused, and have devolved into a theological abyss created by obsession with systematic theologies and micro-managing how families operate.

    And everybody said AMEN! (or should have)

    The old SBC – the one that evangelized the nations years ago – was focused on delivering the whosoever will message of the Cross of Christ for ALL people. The new SBC – the one where Calvinism = Gospel – is focused on delivering a theology rejected by 90% of Christendom worldwide.

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  32. Max,

    I have noticed that Christian women will back up anything that has worked for them personally. Going quiverfull? Sure, if you’re the Duggars. Tithing 10% of your gross income? As long as you’re at least solid middle class and a frugal spender. Patriarchy? Being related or married to one of the Big Guys makes a huge difference.

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  33. Muslin, fka Deana Holmes: Grainne: Peacemakers is a very bad idea. GRACE should be called in.

    I think it’s time for the lawyers, myself.

    Certainly. But also, I would avoid any ‘mediation’ where you have to abide by their decisions, from a group chosen by Patterson and his lawyer. Bad plan.

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  34. Muslin, fka Deana Holmes: SWBTS doesn’t have to provide him with the chance to answer unless it is a documented part of its internal process (i.e., in an employment handbook) or part of Patterson’s contract, if he has one

    I would think that most people in this type of position have some sort of clauses in their contract about things they can be ousted for. Like Bad press, for instance. Or moral failure. Or failure to follow XYZ procedure, that can jeopardize the school.

    However, I suspect that ‘lying to the board’ is the big no-no that ultimately got him unambiguously fired and that it is airtight in some way, and they have proof. So all these ‘he didn’t get due process’ people are just blowing smoke. Perhaps they gave him enough rope to hang himself, ultimately.

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  35. Max: No, Dilday’s sin was that he was a moderate conservative – he preferred the term “constructive conservative.” The fundamentalists didn’t want to make room for Dilday in the new SBC.

    It appears what happened with the CR is that they drove out, or drove out of power, many if not most of the caring members of the denomination. Then they taught people to be hard hearted and mean spirited towards all women, lgbt, liberals, etc, and told them it was godly. It turns out this was led by a man who is deeply misogynistic and a man who was an abuser. We are seeing predictable results.

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  36. Nancy2(Kevlar): I wonder if Patterson is familiar with the words, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”?

    It does not appear so. And, what about all the women he had fired from the college? We’re they treated well?

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  37. Bridget: And, what about all the women he had fired from the college? We’re they treated well?

    Right?

    Their due process was ‘Woman? Check. Fired’. Patterson’s supporters think they have such great arguments and they all sound pathetic to me. Blind folks, they are.

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  38. Muslin, fka Deana Holmes: Patterson’s supporters have been wailing about how SWBTS didn’t give him due process and allow him to hear the evidence against him.

    They don’t seem to get the fact that perhaps the single biggest factor in them firing him outright was that he lied to them during the very process they say he was denied.

    You’ve done a great job of breaking down some of the legalities and that has been very helpful. Thanks.

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  39. A thought about the M. Lively letters to PP that were improperly published by S. Colter as exculpatory evidence in favor of PP:

    I haven’t read these (and will not), but from the minimal descriptions I have seen of their contents they appear to paint PP in a favorable light without explicitly referencing details of the alleged assault. (I’m using the term “alleged” here in a pro forma way; I believe ML’s testimony, but the facts of the matter have not yet been established in a proper judicial proceeding)

    As I understand it, these letters were written during a period of time in which ML was under discipline at SEBTS on account of the circumstances surrounding the alleged assault (ie, she allowed a male into her apartment). I wonder whether it is sound to consider any statements made by the weaker party in the context of such a large power imbalance to be “uncoerced.” In such a situation, the weaker party is likely to conform to the expectations of the stronger party in order to avoid a worse outcome. ML may herself have been facing expulsion.

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  40. Max: The new SBC – the one where Calvinism = Gospel – is focused on delivering a theology rejected by 90% of Christendom worldwide.

    Which means it must be FORCED on the other 90% by any means necessary.
    “RAM IT DOWN THEIR THROATS! DEUS VULT!”

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  41. Dr. Molly Marshall was fired from SBTS not long after the “Takeover.”–An intelligent teacher who probably intimidated the brethren.

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  42. Max: I have to say that Patterson assembled an odd group for those windows, but finding McCarty there – not even a Southern Baptist during the Conservative Resurgence (?!) – is very peculiar.

    Is it possible to sneak into the SBTS Holy of Holies with a can of transparent brown paint and recolor all the noses except for Patterson’s?

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  43. Florence in KY:
    Dr. Molly Marshall was fired from SBTS not long after the “Takeover.”–An intelligent teacher who probably intimidated the brethren.

    After the Coup, the Cleansing.

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  44. I read a snippet supposedly from Patterson lawyers that say he explained the ‘context’ of ‘break her down’ at the first meeting to people’s satisfaction. Curious what on earth context could possibly have made that acceptable.

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  45. But from the beginning, it was not like this. While Adam was asleep, God took a rib from his side to make a woman. So woman was not made from the crown of the head so she could lord over man, nor from the sole of his foot so he could step on her. She was taken from his side so she can be his helper. And it was good even though Adam never figured her out because she was formed when he was dreaming.

    So Jesus, Son of God became the Son of Man to be the sacrifice to reverse all curses and save us from sin. So He came to find His own bride on the cross. He, the eternal LORD, received all these dust, sweat, thorns, evil day, sorrow, curses, strikes, pains, suffering, the curse so we are blessed, loved, lifted, up, marvel,….

    He, my only true hero had “But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.” flower the church with the washing and cleansing of His beloved on His side in the eternal. Amen.

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  46. Bystander,

    The numbers are shrinking because of how they treat women. Blaming women for every thing is a recipe for failure.

    No matter how we might differ on theology, each part of the body of Christ needs to take an honest look at how Jesus honored, valued, and respected women. We have a long way to go to get the church to behave like Christ.

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  47. Lea:
    I read a snippet supposedly from Patterson lawyers that say he explained the ‘context’ of ‘break her down’ at the first meeting to people’s satisfaction. Curious what on earth context could possibly have made that acceptable.

    From what I have read, it is claimed that by “break her down” PP meant, “get a break-down [i.e. a detailed description] of what is alleged to have happened”. That strikes me as a bit far-fetched but maybe there are people who talk this way.

    For someone who functioned as a communicator for a significant part of his career, PP seems to have had seriously tone-deaf ear. Not a whole lot like Paul the apostle, who was always concerned to not lay unnecessary stumbling blocks before his hearers.

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  48. Samuel Conner: From what I have read, it is claimed that by “break her down” PP meant, “get a break-down [i.e. a detailed description] of what is alleged to have happened”. That strikes me as a bit far-fetched but maybe there are people who talk this way.

    Uh-huh. Far fetched for sure.

    I notice this is a favorite excuse of people who communicate for a living – that they have been misunderstood. Seems to me if that is so, they are in generally in the wrong profession.

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  49. The stuff I’ve heard Paige Patterson say in person, with my own ears, merits his firing. Some of those things, like the story about the abused wife, which he really liked to tell, are public recordings.

    Even if his “break her down” comment is explained away, there’s 100 other things to replace it.

    The idea that his firing was unmerited is ridiculous.

    And I personally know a number of other SBC leaders that should follow for this atrocious power gaming they do that has no place in Christian churches, ministries, and agencies.

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  50. Lea:
    I notice this is a favorite excuse of people who communicate for a living – that they have been misunderstood.

    “The deception of the ego is that the narcissist can hide behind misfortune and victimization in order to shame you into feeling and believing that they suffer more than you do. They will say that you don’t care enough for them. They will make you feel that you have not done enough to help them. The ego wants attention, control, gain, and power over others by positioning itself as a “poor and helpless” victim. It does this; all the while it soaks up the attention and control over others. In the eyes of an extreme narcissist, their situation is always right and totally justified. Instead of taking responsibility for self and consequences, the extreme narcissist tries to make others feel responsible for their plight. Because extreme narcissists are incredibly adept at the game of manipulation, they will always find a way to turn the tables on you. They will try to make you responsible and feel guilty for not helping them or taking their side and cause.”

    https://psychcentral.com/blog/narcissists-who-cry-the-other-side-of-the-ego/

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  51. Headless Unicorn Guy: Is it possible to sneak into the SBTS Holy of Holies with a can of transparent brown paint and recolor all the noses except for Patterson’s?

    I have wondered how many worshippers are lighting candles at the base of the stained glass image of PP!!!

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  52. Lea: Right?

    Their due process was ‘Woman? Check. Fired’. Patterson’s supporters think they have such great arguments and they all sound pathetic to me. Blind folks, they are.

    Jesus sometimes separated the boys from the men, but I don’t recall Him ever separating the women from the men,
    I have heard people say that the ground at the base of the cross is level. That may be, but men men have worked to keep women behind the ropes on that ground. Many, like PP, have done it and are proud of their work!

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  53. Florence in KY: Dr. Molly Marshall was fired from SBTS not long after the “Takeover.”–An intelligent teacher who probably intimidated the brethren.

    And let’s don’t forget Dr. Diana Garland – Mohler sent her packing, too! He probably thought it was God’s idea.

    I’d like to hog-tie some of these SBC comp leaders and force them to listen to a sermon I would preach to them on Deborah as a judge of Israel, Jesus’ inclusion of women in his ministry, and Paul’s praise for women in ministry like Priscilla, Phoebe, Junia, Julia, Tryphaena, and Tryphosa. I’d go on to tell them how God had called women to various leadership positions in the Church of Jesus Christ over the last 2,000 years.

    For a sickening look at Mohler and his triumphant entry at SBTS, as well as a glimpse at the thinking of other leaders of the Conservative Resurgence (including Patterson) take a look a 25-minute documentary “Recovering the Vision: The Presidency of R. Albert Mohler, Jr.”

    (If I’m not mistaken, the narrator sounds like Al Mohler … providing the commentary in a piece about himself!)

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  54. Samuel Conner: From what I have read, it is claimed that by “break her down” PP meant, “get a break-down [i.e. a detailed description] of what is alleged to have happened”. That strikes me as a bit far-fetched but maybe there are people who talk this way.

    Agreed!

    We all know what Patterson meant by “break her down”.

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  55. Deb: We all know what Patterson meant by “break her down”.

    To intimidate the living daylights out of her until she “confessed” to what she hadn’t done. It’s a form of mental torture usually done by some big scary looking guy, like Paige Patterson … Baptist water-boarding.

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  56. Maybe Patterson was *really* fired for being an idiot and a lech, but mainly for not being a neo-cal. I still think these events are primarily politically motivated, with little concern for morality or victims. The fact that there is some [overdue] justice being served is coincidental.

    I showed my wife some images of the seminary windows, because of her interest in stained glass art. Her first response was that the human figures look like ghosts, mostly because they are shown in greyscale over a very colorful background. Almost as if they were shadows of their former selves.

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  57. PP is now off the board at Cedarville University but the president of Cedarville was Director of Student Life at SEBTS during the time the student claimed rape (I believe her claim) and PP did not report it to police. TW claims he was not involved in the case but does he expect anyone to believe he didn’t know about it? Did he report it to the authorities ? If not, and he knew, he is as culpable as PP.

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  58. GSD [Getting Stuff Done]: shadows of their former selves

    And boy are we ever learning about the former selves of some of these folks!

    I really think a future SWBTS President and his Board of Trustees will try to do something about those stained glass windows. Some of the immortalized icons now detract from chapel visitors trying to worship there. At the very least, they should think about curtains.

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  59. Max: To intimidate the living daylights out of her until she “confessed” to what she hadn’t done. It’s a form of mental torture usually done by some big scary looking guy, like Paige Patterson … Baptist water-boarding.

    Decades ago, when Paige Patterson was at SEBTS, I heard about his office decor – the heads of HUGE African game mounted on the wall – all killed by the man himself.

    No wonder women like Megan were terribly intimidated by Patterson.

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  60. What I wonder is surely Patterson had to know Pressler was a closeted and predatory guy man. When did he know and how long has he been covering up for Pressler?

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  61. Max: To intimidate the living daylights out of her until she “confessed” to what she hadn’t done. It’s a form of mental torture usually done by some big scary looking guy, like Paige Patterson … Baptist water-boarding.

    As I said in the last thread, I can see this entire event laid on the woman’s shoulders because she “broke the rules” by letting a man into her room. Yes, she could have even been told to write thank you notes after being convinced it was all her fault. Because, in Baptist world, inviting a man in is equal to consent. 🙁

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  62. Deb: HUGE African game mounted on the wall – all killed by the man himself!

    On the pew peons’ dime, with a babysitter-guide holding his hand the whole time!
    Hey, I made a rhyme!

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  63. Deb: Decades ago, when Paige Patterson was at SEBTS, I heard about his office decor – the heads of HUGE African game mounted on the wall – all killed by the man himself.

    That was indeed the case and it was not a large office, but there were large animal heads on every wall. His office was terrifying.

    And I doubt he’s a good hunter as he claims. Probably went on tours where the animals were herded right to them.

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  64. Deb,

    Thomas White claims he wasn’t a part of the Megan event but as Director of Student Life, it’s incredulous to me that he was not knowledgeable about it. I do not know who all questioned her.

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  65. Bridget: Because, in Baptist world, inviting a man in is equal to consent.

    I have had three men tell me an unmarried woman consenting to sex is just as bad as a man raping a child.

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  66. Guest: I have had three men tell me an unmarried woman consenting to sex is just as bad as a man raping a child.

    It’s gotta’ be mind-boggling how they derive that one from Scripture.

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  67. Todd Wilhelm: https://twitter.com/turnermaurice/status/971527429662572544

    I also note the “Dr.” Terry M. Turner. Over the years I’ve had the pleasure of working with several dozen people with PhD’s in hard fields such as engineering and the sciences. Not one ever used “Dr.” prominently in front of their name.

    The only time I ever heard one refer to himself as “Dr” was when he was leading some high schoolers hauling a canoe out from a river across a field and was confronted by the farmer who owned the field. I was one of those high schoolers, a long long time ago.

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  68. Bystander: Perhaps the reason our numbers are shrinking is that we are no longer gospel-focused, and have devolved into a theological abyss created by obsession with systematic theologies and micro-managing how families operate.

    100% connection. A church I’m associated with shrank from two packed services to one service that can barely fill the sanctuary. Happened during the tenure of a neoCalvinist who got his phd at SBTS – while micromanaging everyone’s beliefs in “his” church. You can read about it on an earlier post of TWW http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/05/15/a-successful-church-takeover-using-stealth-strategies-in-the-calvinista-playbook/

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  69. Guest: I have had three men tell me an unmarried woman consenting to sex is just as bad as a man raping a child.

    This is because of the lie that “sin is SIN” to God. Pastor Jimmy Hinton, whose father was a closet pedophile, says this is bunk.

    The Catholics have a sense of this with “mortal sin” vs. “venial sin.” The apostle John explains that “there is a sin unto death.” A sin unto death is the breaking of the 10 Commandments because they cause so much harm and destruction to people, families, society-at-large. If they are broken, one must repent in order to have fellowship with God again.

    Things like smoking, swearing, overindulging, losing your patience — we need to curb these things and keep ourselves accountable, for sure… but they are not the same and do not carry the same weight.

    Only ONE sin merited Jesus advising that you just take yourself out before you met the wrath of God — those who would desire to OFFEND a little one, causing them to stumble.

    That is the definition of predatory behavior toward children.

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  70. One of the things that struck me about PP situation is the vast difference between professional/branded (real) Christians and the rest of us who are just not quite as good. If you are/were just a congregant there is not a possibility that you would be given all the chances PP has been given. At the very slightest wif of mistake, need, mess up, ticking off leadership the average congregant no matter how faithful, which is utterly useless would be gone in a nanosecond. There would not be any mercy granted them at all. Now the professional folks they are granted nothing but grace unless they threaten the status quo. I find that rather sad, irrelevant but sad.

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  71. Nae train updates today, I’m afraid – the train was an old class 158. Whilst it had nice posh re-upholstered seats, the WiFi was gubbed.

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  72. Guest: I have had three men tell me an unmarried woman consenting to sex is just as bad as a man raping a child.

    I’m guessing that what is going on here has something to do with the old concept of the absolute authority of the paterfamilias. It’s worrisome to think that this may be coming back, and in the churches of all places.

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  73. Muff Potter: It’s gotta’ be mind-boggling how they derive that one from Scripture.

    I’m sure they don’t. To stumble a little one is, in Jesus’ saying, as serious in its implications for the offender as a capital offense. OTOH, in the OT, if a man violates a women who is not yet married or pledged to be married, the consequence is that he has to pay the bride price to the father and, if the father consents, marry the woman.

    I suspect that the logic of the asserted equivalence (consensual intimacy and child rape) is more connected with the idea that in both cases the REAL offended party is the father (of the woman or of the underage child). IOW, the old paterfamilias concept. Maybe that’s a flawed interpretation, but if it’s valid, it may be another instance of the way that males are elevated within some flavors of “comp” thinking to the function of the local god of the nuclear family.

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  74. brian:
    One of the things that struck me about PP situation is the vast difference between professional/branded (real) Christians and the rest of us who are just not quite as good. If you are/were just a congregant there is not a possibility that you would be given all the chances PP has been given. At the very slightest wif of mistake, need, mess up, ticking off leadership the average congregant no matter how faithful, which is utterly useless would be gone in a nanosecond. There would not be any mercy granted them at all. Now the professional folks they are granted nothing but grace unless they threaten the status quo. I find that rather sad, irrelevant but sad.

    Not a good look for men who claim to be imaging and representing and ministering in the Name of the God who does not break bruised reeds or snuff out smoldering wicks.

    NT Wright makes what sounds like an audacious proposal but that makes perfect sense within the flow of Paul’s argument in 2 Corinthians that 5:21 refers to Paul’s own ministry expressing or embodying God’s faithfulness to His ancient covenant promises (and by extension the imperative that this also happen in the churches).

    Here’s a quick summary:

    http://www.covenantoflove.net/theology/wrights-explanation-of-2-corinthians-521/

    One is tempted to ask “what is being embodied in the ministries of people who call themselves shepherds but who treat the sheep in this way?” It looks to me more like the “robber” than the “Good Shepherd” of John 10, who lays down His life for the sheep.

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  75. brian,

    Branded Christians, sounds like a denomination. Branding, as in identifying with one particular sect. Interesting terminology.

    One of the liabilities of never completely joining ranks with a particular “brand”, is not being recognized as legit in the Kingdom.

    However, IMHO, not in God’s POV.

    Nowadays, branding is kind of a big deal.

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  76. The report of the seminaries follows Patterson’s convention sermon on the program:

    http://www.sbclife.net/article/2551/2018-sbc-annual-meeting-program

    “WEDNESDAY MORNING, JUNE 13

    …..

    9:36 — Evangelism Task Force Report — Paige Patterson, chairman; president, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas

    9:46 – Worship — Mark Blair

    9:55 — Convention Sermon — Paige Patterson

    10:35 — Prayer of Response — Bob Pearle, senior pastor, Birchman Baptist Church, Fort Worth, Texas

    10:40 — Joint Seminary Presentation and Reports — Daniel L. Akin, president, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, N.C.; Jason K. Allen, president, Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Kansas City, Mo.; Jeff Iorg, president, Gateway Seminary of the Southern Baptist Convention, Ontario, Calif.; Charles S. Kelley Jr., president, New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, New Orleans, La.; R. Albert Mohler Jr., president, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Ky.; Paige Patterson, president, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas”

    Notice also that Patterson’s pastor from Birchman Baptist is scheduled to give the prayer following the convention sermon.

    In the event Patterson does not preach, the substitute convention sermon preacher is Kie Bowman, a SWBTS trustee.

    All kinds of awkward.

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  77. Samuel Conner: in both cases the REAL offended party is the father

    That sounds rather like some thinking of bringing shame on the ‘family’ as in the thinking, if I am correct, of one of the other “Abrahamic’ religions. The offense can only be removed if the ‘family’ executes justice against the ‘consensual’ offender. It would not remotely surprise me if similar thinking were present in Christianity. The ‘victim’ or the ‘consensual offender’ was the property(?) of the father/family and shame is shame.

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  78. Jerome: The report of the seminaries follows Patterson’s convention sermon on the program:

    http://www.sbclife.net/article/2551/2018-sbc-annual-meeting-program

    I saw a program update on the meeting website yesterday which indicated Patterson would not be giving the evangelism task force report, nor the Southwestern seminary report, but still scheduled to deliver the convention sermon.

    For you brave souls who want to tune into the weeping and gnashing of teeth and/or display of false humility and unity of SBC brethren & sistern, you can catch the meeting live stream in 4 days at: http://www.sbcannualmeeting.net/sbc18/program

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  79. Lea: I did not like the reference to the #metoo movement pressure being referred to in a negative way. I think everyone needs to examine themselves on this.

    I have received that impression from other ‘Christian’ bloggers as well. It almost appears that the ‘official’ view of the #metoo movement is that it is a bunch of sharks looking for blood. What is totally ignored is that social media, whatever its pitfalls, has allowed, for the first time in history, every day people to have a voice, to even join forces and speak to power.

    Now, who might be threatened by that?

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  80. okrapod,

    While not always true, I have observed over the years, the more “controlling/authoritarian” the “Christain group” is, the more it likes to grap Old T. verses, and use them out of context to justify their “authority”… we could go on and on, but to me, so much of the NT is about being “set free”, not going back to “bondage under the law”….

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  81. Max: The fundamentalists didn’t want to make room for Dilday in the new SBC. Now, there’s another new SBC and its leaders are using the same methods the fundamentalists used to bring in a new kingdom. While MeToo may be driving the change right now, there’s other bad stuff going on in SBC ivory towers that is not pleasing to God. It’s all about control and power in high places.

    And those who are not SBC, but have lived in Calvinist circles, can tell you that the new Sheriff in town is even more corrupt than the old. The more things unravel, the more I suspect Patterson was working hand-in-glove with the Calvinists all along (more than we already know), as they share the same perspectives on women and authority. Patterson was simply the reassuring ‘non-Calvinist’ figure to preserve a figment of tradition. Perhaps the concern here, on the part of the Calvies, is that Patterson might spill his guts, so they have to make sure there is nothing left of his reputation. Not to mention, get a hold of those documents. I hate to say it, but when things get tough, these guys eat their own.

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  82. Max: Bystander: I think that all Southern Baptists should start asking ourselves the hard questions. Perhaps the reason our numbers are shrinking is that we are no longer gospel-focused, and have devolved into a theological abyss created by obsession with systematic theologies and micro-managing how families operate.

    And everybody said AMEN! (or should have)

    The old SBC – the one that evangelized the nations years ago – was focused on delivering the whosoever will message of the Cross of Christ for ALL people. The new SBC – the one where Calvinism = Gospel – is focused on delivering a theology rejected by 90% of Christendom worldwide.

    Amen and amen. As someone who follows traditional Baptist Leighton Flowers’ blog – Soteriology101.com – there are quite a few who were taken in by this Calvinism nonsense who have come to their senses and see both the flaws and dangers in Calvinism. For others, the truth only sinks in amidst the rubble of their church or family.

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  83. truthseeker00: when things get tough, these guys eat their own

    Oh yeah, when the potato gets too hot to handle, they drop it! New Calvinist icons stood with potty-mouth Driscoll to the bitter end, before he became more of a liability than an asset. They then distanced themselves from him to protect their own skin.

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  84. truthseeker00: there are quite a few who were taken in by this Calvinism nonsense who have come to their senses and see both the flaws and dangers in Calvinism

    Too little, too late for traditional Southern Baptists. New Calvinists now control most SBC entities: seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, and a growing number of non-Calvinist churches taken by stealth and deception. Reformed theology – New Calvinist style – is quickly becoming the theological default in SBC.

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  85. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): OH, big whoop.

    Ha! Yeah, I’ve seen lots of deer and quail mounts here and there. I don’t like them, but I doubt I would have found them terrifying. As I said above, just tacky and gross.

    (That doesn’t mean others wouldn’t have, though! I think his being president of the university and throwing his weight around would have been scary to a 22 year old me. Not so much me now).

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  86. Guest: I have had three men tell me an unmarried woman consenting to sex is just as bad as a man raping a child.

    Disgusting.

    There is something deeply wrong in baptistland perceptions having to do with consent/sin regarding sex. This should not be complicated.

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  87. Thersites: Over the years I’ve had the pleasure of working with several dozen people with PhD’s in hard fields such as engineering and the sciences. Not one ever used “Dr.” prominently in front of their name.

    Many of the people I work with have MD’s or PHD’s. Phd’s generally use their Dr. title in professional correspondence or with patients, primarily. Not with other people.

    The only college prof I had who made a big deal about calling her ‘DR’ had literally just gotten her phd. I think it’s insecurity.

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  88. Lea: I notice this is a favorite excuse of people who communicate for a living – that they have been misunderstood.

    It is also the favorite claim of two-faced, political types who speak with forked tongue in order to claim ‘But this is what I really meant!’

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  89. Lea: I think it’s insecurity.

    I do it because both my first and last names are some of the most common names around. You can call me stevej if you like… no problem.

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  90. Bridget: As I said in the last thread, I can see this entire event laid on the woman’s shoulders because she “broke the rules” by letting a man into her room. Yes, she could have even been told to write thank you notes after being convinced it was all her fault. Because, in Baptist world, inviting a man in is equal to consent.

    In Baptistland (and Calvinville) being an attractive woman is equal to consent. That is why their subordination is such a huge issue. They truly view women as mere objects who exist for their use and pleasure. Just like slaves. It is not without reason that this movement is still known as ‘Southern’, however folks prefer to deny it. It is when I thought of my daughters being objectified and treated like second class citizens that the light bulb finally came on to how horrendous this innocent sounding ‘complementarianism’ truly is. Sorry it took so long, but the brainwashing is pretty thorough.

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  91. Lea: There is something deeply wrong in baptistland perceptions having to do with consent/sin regarding sex. This should not be complicated.

    There are two ways to make it simple: (1) go strictly by the bible/NT using the OT only to help understand what the NT might be saying, or (2) go strictly by the customs of the culture in which one lives as to what is or is not approved conduct. But trying to put those two approaches together is not simple, and therefore there will be huge disagreements between persons trying to do so.

    There are some really bad pejorative terms used for christians who try either plan (a) or plan (b).

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  92. Donna:
    I beg to differ with the comment that they were not reactionary to the me too movement. If it were not for that movement none of this wold have come to light in the first place!

    I think the underlying reason why they distanced themselves from the #Metoo Movement is because they don’t want to be associated with, or perceived as *Liberal Feminists*. It matters not if there is merit in such a movement. One of the worst things that a Conservative Christian can be classified as is *liberal* or *feminist*. Of course these terms get bandied about all the time these days and are used erroneously. If one doesn’t fit into strict conservative categories, then they must be on the enemy’s side.

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  93. Leila:
    Guest,

    In their eyes, I wonder, is an unmarried MAN consenting to sex just as bad as raping a child?

    Any married or unmarried man having sex with anyone not his wife, including children, has clearly been ‘tempted’ by the woman or the devil or both. *eyeroll*

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  94. Darlene: I think the underlying reason why they distanced themselves from the #Metoo Movement is because they don’t want to be associated with, or perceived as *Liberal Feminists*.

    ‘Liberals oppose rape so we are for it’ is not a good look.

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  95. jyjames: Branded Christians, sounds like a denomination. Branding, as in identifying with one particular sect. Interesting terminology.

    One of the liabilities of never completely joining ranks with a particular “brand”, is not being recognized as legit in the Kingdom.

    However, IMHO, not in God’s POV.

    Nowadays, branding is kind of a big deal.

    Does this bring to anyone else’s mind the required stamp of the image of the beast, or is it just me? Just as Anapabtists were murdered for not being part of the ‘official’ church, we seem frighteningly close to having restored that qualification in order to be a part of ‘the kingdom of God’. My former Calvie pastor made no bones about insisting that only those in good standing with an ‘official church’ (with the ‘right’ doctrine, wink wink) could be considered part of ‘the kingdom’. Scary stuff.

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  96. Lea: Ha! Yeah, I’ve seen lots of deer and quail mounts here and there. I don’t like them, but I doubt I would have found them terrifying. As I said above, just tacky and gross.

    (That doesn’t mean others wouldn’t have, though! I think his being president of the university and throwing his weight around would have been scary to a 22 year old me. Not so much me now).

    Being able to bag an animal doesn’t prove “real manhood”.
    After the bear, my cousin realized how pointless trophy hunting is. Oh, he still hunts……. But, if he won’t eat it, he won’t take it down. Sorry Paige. Your manliness was outdone by a child.

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  97. What boggles my mind is how Paul Pressler, a known predatory gay man who was removed from his Presbyterian church because he molested a young man, how does that guy get called by God to come and save the Southern Baptist Convention? Secondly, at what point has Paige Patterson learned this about his colleague, yet still works with him to achieve their mutual political ends?

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  98. ishy: And I doubt he’s a good hunter as he claims. Probably went on tours where the animals were herded right to them.

    “Canned Hunts”.
    May as well bring the quarry out in a small cage and have the poser shoot them in the cage.

    I know a couple actual hunters from a rural culture where hunting and shooting was part of the culture. In a REAL hunt, the quarry must have a reasonable chance of escape/evasion. In Big Game hunting (such as the African Big Five), the quarry must also have a chance of putting the hunter in actual danger.

    I’ll believe REVEREND Trophy Heads is a REAL big game hunter when he takes a Cape Buffalo (most deadly of the Big Five) in brush on foot. Or bags a lion in the traditional Masai manner — solo, on foot, with a spear.

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  99. Lea: (That doesn’t mean others wouldn’t have, though! I think his being president of the university and throwing his weight around would have been scary to a 22 year old me. Not so much me now).

    Baptistland: “Consent? What’s Consent?”
    As long as all the Rules are followed chapter-and-verse, who needs “Consent”?
    (That is how I read “Baptistland” sexual mores — that and looking for a chapter-and-verse Loophole.)

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  100. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Being able to bag an animal doesn’t prove “real manhood”.
    After the bear, my cousin realized how pointless trophy hunting is.

    Wouldn’t it be poetic justice if a hunter from space made a trophy of him?

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  101. truthseeker00: In Baptistland (and Calvinville) being an attractive woman is equal to consent.

    I remember an internet meme with a fat oily rapist type looking smug and the caption “I Was Horny, So She Was Willing”.

    In Baptistland they just tack on “GOD SAITH!”
    In Calvinville, “DEUS VULT!”

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  102. Muff Potter: Wouldn’t it be poetic justice if a hunter from space made a trophy of him?

    You sound like my old DM speculating on “What if sealers ran into a bunch of sealoid aliens with laser rifles?”

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  103. Lea: ‘Liberals oppose rape so we are for it’ is not a good look.

    “If we must stand because Enemy Christians kneel, that is Protestantism taken to its most sterile extreme.”

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  104. truthseeker00: My former Calvie pastor made no bones about insisting that only those in good standing with an ‘official church’ (with the ‘right’ doctrine, wink wink) could be considered part of ‘the kingdom’. Scary stuff.

    Voltaire said that those who can make you believe absurdities can also make you commit atrocities.

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  105. ,

    “For a sickening look at Mohler and his triumphant entry at SBTS, as well as a glimpse at the thinking of other leaders of the Conservative Resurgence (including Patterson) take a look a 25-minute documentary “Recovering the Vision: The Presidency of R. Albert Mohler, Jr.””
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    do we get a glimpse of the velvet ropes i hear they set up to separate Al Mohler from the rifraff as he moves around after having emerged from a fancy chauffeur-driven car?

    that’s a crystallized image of the silliness of SBC’s power games. And worth drawing attention to. i have to think justified ridicule would get through to them.

    plus it would make a good dart board for fun at the pub.

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  106. Max: Too little, too late for traditional Southern Baptists.New Calvinists now control most SBC entities: seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, and a growing number of non-Calvinist churches taken by stealth and deception. Reformed theology – New Calvinist style – is quickly becoming the theological default in SBC.

    This is commonly called “Fait Accompli — It’s All Over But The Screaming.”

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  107. elastigirl: do we get a glimpse of the velvet ropes i hear they set up to separate Al Mohler from the rifraff as he moves around after having emerged from a fancy chauffeur-driven car?

    Surrounded by a cordon of Armed Bodyguards stroking their shoulder rigs.

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  108. Leila:
    Guest,

    In their eyes, I wonder, is an unmarried MAN consenting to sex just as bad as raping a child?

    According to some of the mottos of the good old boys society:
    Boys will be boys.
    Sowing their wild oats.

    Probably they would not equate the two.

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  109. truthseeker00: And those who are not SBC, but have lived in Calvinist circles, can tell you that the new Sheriff in town is even more corrupt than the old. The more things unravel, the more I suspect Patterson was working hand-in-glove with the Calvinists all along (more than we already know), as they share the same perspectives on women and authority. Patterson was simply the reassuring ‘non-Calvinist’ figure to preserve a figment of tradition.

    Who has now Outlived His Usefulness.

    (Why do I see the scene from the Sabaton music video “Rise of Evil” where Roehm of the SA is shot by Heydrich of the SS during the Night of the Long Knives?)

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  110. Leila:
    Guest,

    In their eyes, I wonder, is an unmarried MAN consenting to sex just as bad as raping a child?

    Much Worse.
    That would be HOMOSEXUALITY(TM), and raping a child is just Privilege of Pastoral Rank.

    (Though in other Male Supremacist cultures in history, the usual workaround for a Homosexuality taboo is the rich and powerful can get away with it as a Privilege of Rank. The Lowborn, however…)

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  111. refugee: According to some of the mottos of the good old boys society:
    Boys will be boys.
    Sowing their wild oats.

    Probably they would not equate the two.

    Oh, wait, I was comparing a man to a woman having unmarried sex.

    Unless it was man-to-man. And even there, Patterson protected his buddy. But maybe that provides the answer to the original question. The answer sickeningly implies that Patterson’s buddy got a pass because boys were involved instead of grown men. Thus, both the acts of an unmarried man having sex, and hurting children, may be considered regrettable but not reprehensible by the power brokers and their supporters.

    I’m feeling sick.

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  112. elastigirl,

    i feel a business opportunity coming on….

    would we get in trouble for starting a business of SBC dart board games? offering a variety of SBC entity images, with the bullseye in just the right place.

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  113. ___

    Let the 501c3 church’s distilled toxic poisoning choke the life outa me?

    huh?

    True, my faith ain’t getting any younger,

    What?

    But that ain’t no reason to give up on Jesus,
    My way, my truth, ahem! my very life…

    Your the greatest!

    (p.s. come bacK soon)

    [tears]

    *

    Page Patterson?

    hmmm…

    Remember, they always dump the trash before going to vindication…

    ATB

    Sòpy

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RRzHJrx-g3A

    ;~)

    – –

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  114. Muff Potter: Voltaire said that those who can make you believe absurdities can also make you commit atrocities.

    Isn’t that what 9Marks teaches with their emphasis on membership?

    Isn’t that what Mohler was saying with his “Where else will they go?”

    It was very scary for me to leave the “safety” of the ranks of the saved, but I find life, and that abundantly, is much more abundant out here in the wilderness.

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  115. refugee: The answer sickeningly implies that Patterson’s buddy got a pass because boys were involved instead of grown men.

    There’s another dynamic at work in this:

    Same-sex pedophiles identify as Straight, not Gay. I have heard of studies showing it is the pre-pubescent boy’s lack of male secondary sexual characteristics (deep voice, rougher skin, heavier body/facial hair) that arouses same-sex pedos — FEMALE characteristics (high-pitched voice, smooth hairless skin), so it isn’t REALLY Homosexuality. (“LOOPHOLE!”)

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  116. (Muff Potter, above, was responding to a Cal pastor asserting that only those who were members of an approved body (which I have heard codenamed “the local church” in churches hereabouts) are included in the “kingdom”. That’s what I was responding to in my previous comment, but the quote left that part out.)

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  117. We need a true religious revival in the U.S. The culture is listing into a combo platter of nihilism, fuzzy-headed hedonism and rabid egalitarianism (defined now not by the very right notion that all people are intrinsically equal, but the very wrong one that all beliefs and behaviors are intrinsically equal—except for those informed by historical Christianity.

    One cannot expect this revival to come from the churches; for the institutional churches have for the most part lost any moral authority and seem positively worse than the culture at large, witness the scandals of Hybels, Mahaney, Patterson, witness the smug, cold-hearted attitudes of MacArthur and Piper, the Machiavellian schemes of Falwell, Driscoll, Mahaney and Mohler, the avarice of Furtick, Dollar, Copeland, Duplantis, Franklin Graham. Too many Christian leaders have become utterly corrupt; they do not believe in Jesus or care even the slightest bit about Him except as He can be used to promote their self-proclaimed authority, market their church expansion projects, and build their personal wealth and influence.

    We’re in a mess—and the so-called leaders of the so-called church are at the front of it, driving it.

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  118. Samuel Conner: I suspect that the logic of the asserted equivalence (consensual intimacy and child rape) is more connected with the idea that in both cases the REAL offended party is the father (of the woman or of the underage child). IOW, the old paterfamilias concept.

    Wasn’t “the old Paterfamilias concept” part of PRE-CHRISTIAN (commonly called PAGAN) Roman Culture?

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  119. Leila,

    “In their eyes, I wonder, is an unmarried MAN consenting to sex just as bad as raping a child?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    pretty sure in their eyes consent doesn’t factor in regarding men and sex. they conquer and colonize, that is all. as well they should.

    (i mean, did any SBC or TGC man actually object to Doug Wilson’s scum-of-the-earth characterization? any at all? no, i didn’t think so. all of ’em, giving their approval through their typical passive silence.)

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  120. okrapod: That sounds rather like some thinking of bringing shame on the ‘family’ as in the thinking, if I am correct, of one of the other “Abrahamic’ religions.The offense can only be removed if the ‘family’ executes justice against the ‘consensual’ offender.

    i.e. Honor Killing. (“AL’LAH’U AKBAR!”)

    It would not remotely surprise me if similar thinking were present in Christianity.The ‘victim’ or the ‘consensual offender’ was the property(?) of the father/family and shame is shame.

    Something about an Honor/Shame Culture:

    Guilt (like suicide) requites one; Shame (like murder) requires at least two.
    If nobody knows of my Sin, I AM NOT SHAMED.
    (All too easy to add “And Dead Men Tell No Tales.” — again, Honor Killing.)

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  121. refugee,

    “It was very scary for me to leave the “safety” of the ranks of the saved, but I find life, and that abundantly, is much more abundant out here in the wilderness.”
    +++++++++++++++

    and, like me, I reckon you’ve seen the magnificence of human beings, the world over.

    that this can be surprising to christians is… don’t have a strong enough word. (really disgusted, here)

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  122. Beth74: This is because of the lie that “sin is SIN” to God. Pastor Jimmy Hinton, whose father was a closet pedophile, says this is bunk…

    Only ONE sin merited Jesus advising that you just take yourself out before you met the wrath of God — those who would desire to OFFEND a little one, causing them to stumble.

    That is the definition of predatory behavior toward children.

    Of course, this is true. These are word games they’re playing. Either they know it and don’t care, because they have to lie to justify themselves and are too evil to care, or they don’t know it and are simply blind, because perhaps they know Jesus, but are confused, deluded, have lost their way and no longer can be relied upon to speak for Him.

    All sin is sin in the sense in one sense: it separates us from God and makes it necessary that we have a savior, Jesus. But all sin is not the same in every possible sense. It goes without saying that the obvious destructive effects of some sin (mass murder) would have a more destructive effect than others (a child’s white lie or a person being impatient and irritable).

    It also goes without saying that some sin is an indication of the perhaps reprobate state of the sinner’s soul (such as, perhaps, premeditating an in-person psychological “breakdown” of a young, innocent woman, only recently abused in a most horrible way, so as to protect your reputation and institution, or, as you mention, the leading astray of a little one (which of course would include their sexual abuse). And of course, as you point out, Jesus called this sin out for special treatment. He could not have been more blunt.

    But where in the behavior of those to whom you refer is there anything that would indicate they care at all about what Jesus says? Don’t they seem more like they hate Jesus with thinly-suppressed rage? I can’t judge another’s soul or ultimate fate, way beyond my paygrade, cannot say what I’d have done had I been given the nature and nurture of the typical abuser (perhaps I’d have made Paige Patterson look like a hero by comparison, who can know?), but I can judge actions. And we are discussing things here that appear to be diabolical, there’s no nice way to put it. Some sins have horrific consequences and are indications that something is catastrophically amiss.

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  123. I have been around, reading this blog for a while. I agree that it is a service to the overall body of Christ. I am grieved by the abuse of the overly authoritarians that have taken over the SBC.
    I don’t know if this is the time to state this. I was not raised a Southern Baptist. I was raised in a very Liturgical “C”hurch. I had friends who claimed to be Southern Baptist. They were what I thought Southern Baptist to be. After the Lord saved me, there was one thing I knew I would never be. A Southern Baptist. I now know there were probably good Southern Baptist Churches in the SBC, but I never saw any here were I live. My second opinion of Southern Baptist’s was from a TV ministry of a Southern Baptist preacher here in town who was a guy who screamed at his congregants. He was very, what I thought, “holier than thou”. I never had anyone share the gospel with me here in our community. Southern Baptist or otherwise. So when I came to Christ I was not looking for Southern Baptist churches to attend.
    Did the Southern Baptist’s need some changes? It appeared to me that they sure did. I can remember being very hopeful when the Conservative Resurgence came about and started making changes. That didn’t work out so well I must admit. But there seems to be sometimes, by some that comment here a very Pollyanna view of what was there before the Conservative Resurgence. At least from what I experienced. Anyone else have a similar experience? I agree that it seems to have gone totally off the tracks. Now I wonder if there could ever be any hope for the SBC.

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  124. truthseeker00: My former Calvie pastor made no bones about insisting that only those in good standing with an ‘official church’ (with the ‘right’ doctrine, wink wink) could be considered part of ‘the kingdom’. Scary stuff.

    As noted, not God’s POV. There is no official brand of church. Nothing wrong with joining ranks with a group, in theory (depends on the group), however, not necessary for the two official requirements:
    1-Love God with all heart, soul, mind, strength
    2-Love neighbor as self.

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  125. Ken A: But there seems to be sometimes, by some that comment here a very Pollyanna view of what was there before the Conservative Resurgence.

    My experience was different in the details, but yes I am not as impressed with what there was in SBC before the resurgence. In fact, we left just shortly before the resurgence.

    What I saw was of course compared to Catholicism, and I envied the Catholic kids who could quote the catechism, brief as it was, while we had to wallow around and quote some bible verse which might not even be applicable. How humiliating.

    Then there was the time when during the summer there was a guest youth worker (seminary student I think) and once he was presenting some biblical subject to our group of kids. Some high school girl who was Wesleyan Methodist challenged him on something or other and just mopped the floor with him. About this time I was beginning to think that we Southern Baptists needed to either get competitive or else get out of the game.

    I have several stories like this, but these two will suffice to make the point. IMO if all the Baptists do is go back to what they were before the CR then that is not enough. They have to figure out what went wrong in the first place that made them susceptible to the current situation and correct whatever that was.

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  126. okrapod: IMO if all the Baptists do is go back to what they were before the CR then that is not enough. They have to figure out what went wrong in the first place that made them susceptible to the current situation and correct whatever that was.

    I think the CR was a move in the wrong direction, and I think it’s time for the SBC to admit it. That doesn’t mean it was perfect before this is true, but the CR seems to have gone in the wrong direction. Instead of opening things up for women, it closed them. Instead of opening minds to studying the bible more deeply, it forced them into even tighter boxes.

    If you aren’t allowed to think outside of the parameters set by someone at a seminary, or the preacher, or what have you..if you aren’t allowed to question, you can never grow.

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  127. Lea: If you aren’t allowed to think outside of the parameters set by someone at a seminary, or the preacher, or what have you..if you aren’t allowed to question, you can never grow.

    True. And if you do think and question you may just think and question yourself right out the front door. If Al wants to know ‘where are they going to go’ the answer is lots of places, none perfect, but some a whole lot better places for those who think and question.

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  128. okrapod: If Al wants to know ‘where are they going to go’ the answer is lots of places, none perfect, but some a whole lot better places for those who think and question.

    Yep. Lots of places. Once you realize you don’t have to stay in their little box.

    And they might even be reformed, just the unacceptable to them kind.

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  129. okrapod: If Al wants to know ‘where are they going to go’ the answer is lots of places, none perfect, but some a whole lot better places for those who think and question.

    Oh, but Dr. Al says there are no viable options out there if you want to be exposed to Truth! If you want to be theologically correct, New Calvinism or something like it is your only choice!

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  130. Law Prof: We need a true religious revival in the U.S. … We’re in a mess—and the so-called leaders of the so-called church are at the front of it, driving it.

    If/when a genuine revival spreads through America, there will be a whole new crop of leaders called forth by God to usher it in. He will not use the current bunch – they’ve had their chance. God will raise up men and women after His heart to lead the Church (the real one) out of the wilderness when His people humble themselves, pray, repent and seek His face. I don’t see much movement in that direction yet.

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  131. Samuel Conner: From what I have read, it is claimed that by “break her down” PP meant, “get a break-down [i.e. a detailed description] of what is alleged to have happened”.

    He wanted to be alone in his office with a rape victim, to get a detailed description of her rape.
    No matter how you interpret “break her down,” his actions were abusive, vile and a huge red flag. His behavior can never be made right by saying he meant this or that, as though it’s just a question of interpretation. It’s not.

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  132. Headless Unicorn Guy: i.e. “Trainspotting II — Edinburgh” is postponed due to technical difficulties.

    “Trainspotting” was set in Edinburgh although, Ironically, it was mainly filmed in Glasgow. The opening was shot in Edinburgh and the ending was shot in that London.

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  133. Max: Oh, but Dr. Al says there are no viable options out there if you want to be exposed to Truth! If you want to be theologically correct, New Calvinism or something like it is your only choice!

    As to the first sentence, truth as a word is open to definition, but in christianity Truth is a Person; that is an entirely different concept. Al does not have Truth Himself under exclusive contract.

    As to the second sentence, that reminds me of something C S Lewis said about people who think that the only real fish forks are the fish forks they have at their house. I had to look up what a fish fork even was. Fish forks are a waste of time. Al needs to be careful lest he major on the minors such that he misses the major stuff itself. Oops, I meant to say the Major Stuff Himself.

    Poor ole Al seems to have built a mini-empire to the Great God Doctrine. Is there not something in scripture where Jesus talks about people who say to Him at the final reckoning, but Lord we (even) cast out demons in your name…Al could raise the dead and cast out demons but if it is not about Jesus then Al has not chosen wisely.

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  134. Nick Bulbeck: Really? What text would he expound to them to do this?

    Yeah. Maybe he could do whatever the witch of Endor did who got Samuel, sort of, and then claim that NT is post-resurection and post pentecost, and ‘greater works’ so maybe a spirit could materialize, going from spirit to matter.

    And there is always whatever you ask in my Name..

    Of course Al would have to get over his humility and self doubt to even try it—yes, well, never mind.

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  135. okrapod: I had to look up what a fish fork even was.

    Goodness knows I had to as well. (sidenote: dude called me one time asking if I had seafood forks or shrimp forks or something one time that he could borrow. Nope.)

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  136. okrapod,

    I appreciated your response. You have admitted to being a little older than me. Being raised after Vatican II, I couldn’t have spelled catechism, much less did I know what it was. Anyway, I am still praying for you. Hope that you are doing okay. Blessings!

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  137. Lea: If you aren’t allowed to think outside of the parameters set by someone at a seminary, or the preacher, or what have you..if you aren’t allowed to question, you can never grow.

    Boy is this true from the seminary crowd. There are some areas you just aren’t supposed venture into. The powers that be keep a tight reign on what is acceptable thinking.

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  138. ishy: That was indeed the case and it was not a large office, but there were large animal heads on every wall. His office was terrifying.

    And I doubt he’s a good hunter as he claims. Probably went on tours where the animals were herded right to them.

    Patterson is fat and old. I doubt he could waddle more than 100 meters before having to stop and take a break. He’s not physically capable of traipsing around Africa in search of quick, nimble prey.

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  139. Darlene: I think the underlying reason why they distanced themselves from the #Metoo Movement is because they don’t want to be associated with, or perceived as *Liberal Feminists*. It matters not if there is merit in such a movement. One of the worst things that a Conservative Christian can be classified as is *liberal* or *feminist*. Of course these terms get bandied about all the time these days and are used erroneously. If one doesn’t fit into strict conservative categories, then they must be on the enemy’s side.

    I do think that is part of it.

    I’m a conservative but despise sexism, and the ‘Me Too’ movement is just a way of various women from different backgrounds have of discussing any sexual harassment they’ve faced.

    The Me Too movement is not a monolith. Not everyone who tweets about it is a liberal.

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  140. okrapod: . If Al wants to know ‘where are they going to go’ the answer is lots of places, none perfect, but some a whole lot better places for those who think and question.

    Interesting…some Mormon leader a few years back asked in a sermon directed at Mormons who were bailing out-“Where will you go?”

    The response has been-“anywhere but church” and they’re voting with their feet. So this is not just a Mohler problem.

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  141. There are a lot of Patterson supporters on Twitter. What I noticed is there’s not even a bit of concern for the women who have come forward; in fact the general thing has been to support trashing them.

    It also doesn’t appear that these guys (mostly guys) haven’t figured out yet that they’ve made Patterson toxic with what they’ve been doing. SWBTS isn’t going to take him back, not with the legal issues hanging over his head.

    But the way Patterson’s accusers have been treated by Patterson’s supporters-seriously, it makes the SBC look horrible.

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  142. Max: Oh, but Dr. Al says there are no viable options out there if you want to be exposed to Truth!If you want to be theologically correct, New Calvinism or something like it is your only choice!

    Mark me down as theologically incorrect according to Mohler, then. Which I suspect puts me far ahead in many ways. Let me be a Mary sitting at the Lord’s feet, rather than a Pharisee proclaiming the (man-defined) “right” way to approach God—which looks to work out as a way to actually distance oneself further from God.

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  143. SBCToday is back up and running. For info on the Patterson events, they merely provide a link to SBCIssues, where all articles are pro-Patterson.

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  144. Law Prof:

    We’re in a mess—and the so-called leaders of the so-called church are at the front of it, driving it.

    For a number of years I have had the sense that North American christianity (at least the conservative protestant parts of it that I have some awareness of) is headed into, if not already in, something akin to the exile of Old Israel.

    It’s not clear to me how the institutions might “return from exile.” Maybe it’s possible, but I don’t expect it in my lifetime.

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  145. Samuel Conner: For a number of years I have had the sense that North American christianity (at least the conservative protestant parts of it that I have some awareness of) is headed into, if not already in, something akin to the exile of Old Israel.

    All signs are pointing to the institutional church having entered the Age of Apostasy.

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  146. This was posted by Lisa Bevere, who I believe is some kind of Christian personality.

    I think I’ve seen Bevere on TBN (Christian channel) as a speaker before or promoting books she’s written.

    She wrote this on her Facebook page (and I disagree with most of it – you might have to log in to read it):

    by Lisa Bevere
    https://www.facebook.com/lisabevere.page/videos/10160261237695447/

    June 4, 2018

    Many of you have shared heart wrenching harrowing stories of how your church or its leadership has betrayed & abandoned you.

    I am truly sorry. I too have been betrayed & abandoned by those I thought would protect me.

    But, you don’t take your grievances public to a secular world & decry the BODY of Christ as a whole on your social media because a faction has failed you.

    If abuse exists & people are at risk or in danger, by all means speak up & go to the authorities (police) if it is illegal or the church board if it is unscriptural.

    But if you are frustrated with a local church, leader or denomination do it according to the biblical model by going to them.

    If they don’t hear you then go with another person.

    Sometimes there is no resolution & we have to move on. But we don’t curse. We speak truth & leave. Social media has a lot of margin for misunderstanding. (As evidenced here.) my point is that the RIGHT people need to be part of the conversation if you want to see the RIGHT results.

    And avoid taking a broad stroke with your brush.

    Some churches are abusive & oppress women, but far from ALL churches are this way. Most churches are growing in grace & truth.

    But if you go to a church that doesn’t it may be healthiest if you leave & join a body that is truly a family.

    NEVER go against the family… and NEVER tell someone outside the family what you are thinking.

    Regarding comments such as these:

    “But, you don’t take your grievances public to a secular world & decry the BODY of Christ as a whole on your social media because a faction has failed you.”

    Why not? Is Christianity so weak it cannot stand up to some public scrutiny?

    Demanding that everyone keep all disappointments or misdeeds “in-house” actually makes things worse, for a lot of reasons I won’t enumerate here, and which most regular readers of this blog already know anyhow.

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  147. Max: Mohler has declared that the “Reformed” faith is the only viable option for thinking Christians.

    Branding.

    What did Jesus say: love God heart, soul, mind, strength & love neighbor as self. Exude the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.) and practice gifts of the Spirit. Love is the branding of a Christian, how we are to be known – how we love each other.

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  148. Max: I heard “Yanny” and “Laurel”, so guess I’m covered! Whew!

    I heard “Yanny” the first time (on the evening news), and when they repeated it on the morning news, I heard “Laurel”.

    Weird!

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  149. Law Prof: We need a true religious revival in the U.S.

    I just had a crazy thought. What if we have been standing, gazing up into heaven, looking for he coming religious revival, and we have it all wrong?

    What if we do not really need a ‘revival’ like the preacher boys drum up with their hyperbole and ginned up stories, but a real awakening. And what if, THIS IS IT?

    What if, one by one, two by two, men and women are waking up to the virtual reality world they have been inhabiting called church, and are exiting into – real life in Christ?

    Maybe this is the moment we have been waiting for. The great deception has seen its cover blown, and we are part of witnessing to a watching world who God really is, how he really loves and all he has to offer. What if we are what is needed?

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  150. Daisy: This was posted by Lisa Bevere, who I believe is some kind of Christian personality.

    She is one of those complementarian mouthpieces – like Beth Moore – who is simply a useful tool to the autocrats. Keeps the women amused and out of trouble focusing on ‘women’s’ issues.

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  151. Muslin, fka Deana Holmes: There are a lot of Patterson supporters on Twitter. What I noticed is there’s not even a bit of concern for the women who have come forward; in fact the general thing has been to support trashing them.

    That has been the horrible theme with all these fallen Christian leaders.

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  152. Daisy: “But, you don’t take your grievances public to a secular world & decry the BODY of Christ as a whole on your social media because a faction has failed you.”

    Why not?

    Because Jesus set the example. He never publicly excoriated the religious leaders of his time. /sarcasm off

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  153. truthseeker00: She is one of those complementarian mouthpieces – like Beth Moore – who is simply a useful tool to the autocrats. Keeps the women amused and out of trouble focusing on ‘women’s’ issues.

    At least she seems to be allowing dissenting comments and there are a lot of them.

    Christianity has so many predators because Christians have let them in. I believe it’s our own fault. And many of those predators already have been confronted personally and refused to take responsibility because they believed they could get away with it and have. So her argument that #metoo victims have never confronted someone sounds like she has no idea what she’s talking about, to me.

    The church needs to accept the consequences of the way they’ve treated victims and allowed predators to flourish.

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  154. okrapod: Yeah. Maybe he could do whatever the witch of Endor did who got Samuel, sort of, and then claim that NT is post-resurection and post pentecost, and ‘greater works’ so maybe a spirit could materialize, going from spirit to matter.

    I’ve generally found BiblicalBiblical people argue that “greater works” refers to expounding the Biblescriptures™. Being able to offer one’s opinions about a verse from the Bible is, certainly, a far greater miracle than raising the dead – any idol-worshipping fool could do that. Why, only yesterday I raised four people, a hedgehog, and a small japanese maple tree from the dead *, and I’m not BiblicalBiblical at all.

    Frivolity aside, I genuinely don’t know what Mr Mohler’s beliefs on miracles are.

    * Not in a frivolous, physical sense, but in a deeper, spiritual sense.

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  155. Daisy (quoting another lassie on Facetube):

    NEVER go against the family… and NEVER tell someone outside the family what you are thinking.

    AWWBA, that’s not Judeo-Christian wisdom; it’s actually a quote from The Godfather.

    They had various ways of addressing wrongs and perceived injustices in The Godfather, but they didn’t represent Judeo-Christian wisdom either.

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  156. Daisy: Why not? Is Christianity so weak it cannot stand up to some public scrutiny?

    These people must not think so. They act like the Almighty isn’t strong enough to defend His own name. Of course, He isn’t going to defend their actions, which it seems they know all too well.

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  157. I’m curious to fid out what the “real” truth is regarding Paige Patterson.
    I’m not sure if this should all be called:
    SBC Gate
    As the Baptists Blather
    Baptist Burnout
    Baptistcapades…

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  158. Linn: I’m curious to fid out what the “real” truth is regarding Paige Patterson.

    Problem is, things are developing into a “WHOSE Truth?” situation.
    Low Signal (“real” truth) to high Noise (“Whose TRVTH” propaganda).

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  159. Max: All signs are pointing to the institutional church having entered the Age of Apostasy.

    Define “Age of Apostasy”. I don’t have a Secret Decoder Ring.

    During my time in-country “Age of Apostasy” or “Great Apostasy” was all tied in with Rapture Ready End Times Fulfillments, a period immediately preceding the Rapture and Tribulation. With an undercurrent of “I Thank Thee, LOOORD, That I Am Nothing Like All Those Apostates….”

    Max, did you “grow up born-again”, i.e. raised in a church bubble environment where everyone spoke and thought in Christianese? I grew up completely outside a church environment and notice how you seem to speak and write in Christianese Jargon, obscuring what you’re trying to say to those without the Automatic Decoder Ring in the cultural brain wiring. Beware when Technical Language shades into Mystery Language.

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  160. Max: refugee: Mark me down as theologically incorrect according to Mohler, then.

    Mohler has declared that the “Reformed” faith is the only viable option for thinking Christians. New Calvinists ooze with arrogance.

    Well, when you’re The Predestined Elect, God’s Speshul Pets who are Always Absolutely Right…

    “The most important thing in the Devil’s theology is to be Absolutely Right and to prove everyone else to be Absolutely Wrong.”
    — Thomas Merton, “Moral Theology of the Devil”

    Complete essay at http://thegroundoffaith.net/issues/2008-10/Merton.htm ; does Merton’s description of this theology sound familiar?

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  161. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    About the use of the term apostasy, or great falling away, or age of apostasy.

    I grew up like Max, pretty much as I understand his use of terms. That would be before Late Great.
    Here is a very short snippet, less than 5 minutes, in which Al Mohler explains his position as ‘not a dispensationalist’ and believing in classical premillenialism.

    What Al is saying was the standard approach in my day, and possibly still in Max’s day. I agree with Al. Imagine that. The rapture theory of two second comings is dispensationalism. Not everybody who believes in the second coming agrees with dispensationalist understandings of end times prophesy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vPI8ZgIeg0

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  162. Doug Hibbard: On a comment above—the hiring of Dr. McCarty as Parliamentarian “back in the day” was intentionally seeking a person who was a certified parliamentarian, a Christian, but who had no connections to either side of the “Resurgence” and was, therefore, impartial.

    But McCarty ended up on one of the SWBTS chapel stained glass windows celebrating heroes of the Conservative Resurgence (?).

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  163. elastigirl: do we get a glimpse of the velvet ropes i hear they set up to separate Al Mohler from the rifraff as he moves around after having emerged from a fancy chauffeur-driven car?

    History records only a handful of great religious leaders – prominent people who have changed the world by founding distinct forms of worship: Jesus, Muhammad, Martin Luther, Mary Baker Eddy, Confucius, Buddha, Joseph Smith, Krishna, Helena Blavatsky, Fourteenth Dalai Lama … and Al Mohler, of course.

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  164. Max: Dr. Al may be intelligent, but he is not very smart.He will box himself into a corner some day.

    Isn’t the same thing said about sociopaths?
    Brilliant and cunning in the short term, epic fails in the long?

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