Southern Baptist Women Unite Against Mistreatment ‘For Such A Time As This’

“For far too long, women have suffered silently and ashamed in many church environments.
The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) has a poor track record in its treatment of women.”

forsuchatimeasthisrally

https://www.forsuchatimeasthisrally.com/what-s-this-about

The annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention is fast approaching, and something unprecedented will be taking place on the first day of the Dallas gathering. A group plans to rally outside the convention center to call attention to the” SBC’s poor track record in the treatment of women”. (see below)

https://www.forsuchatimeasthisrally.com

The recent publicity concerning Paige Patterson, one of the architects of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Conservative Resurgence, has deeply troubled many women as well as men. Patterson has served as a lightning rod, but there are other leaders throughout the convention who share views similar to his regarding the treatment of women. It was exactly 20 years ago that the 1963 Baptist Faith and Message was amended to include the following language: (link)

The husband and wife are of equal worth before God, since both are created in God’s image. The marriage relationship models the way God relates to His people. A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect, and to lead his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation. (emphasis mine)

We believe Dorothy Patterson and Mary Mohler were the only two women who served on the committee to recommend this change.

The election of Paige Patterson as SBC president coincided with this significant change to the Baptist Faith and Message. Two years later, when Patterson was the outgoing SBC president, this language was incorporated into the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 (BFM2000).

Here’s the million dollar question. Are Southern Baptist women better off today than they were 20 years ago (when the above amendment was made)???

It appears that women who have remained in the SBC are indeed worse off. Here is a screen shot from the #forsuchatimeasthis website that explains their concerns:

https://www.forsuchatimeasthisrally.com/what-s-this-about

https://www.forsuchatimeasthisrally.com/what-s-this-about

Their list of concerns are as follows:

  • Domestic Abuse
  • Rape
  • Women Want Respect Too
  • Training Future Pastors
  • Addressing Faulty Leadership

If you want to join the movement and stay up-to-date, you can sign up here.

http://www.csbc.com/news/2016/2017-sbc-theme-pray-for-such-a-time-as-thisWhat I find highly ironic is that the theme of last year’s SBC meeting was Pray! For Such a Time as This (see picture to the left).

This year’s theme appears to be Testify: Go Stand Speak

And that’s exactly what the #forsuchatimeasthis supporters will be doing. They will GO to Dallas, STAND outside the convention center and SPEAK their minds regarding the mistreatment of women by Southern Baptist pastors and other leaders in the convention.

For those participating, please send us pictures which we will include in a follow-up post!


Comments

Southern Baptist Women Unite Against Mistreatment ‘For Such A Time As This’ — 398 Comments

  1. “What I find highly ironic is that the theme of last year’s SBC meeting was Pray! For Such a Time as This.”

    Apparently, their prayers were very effective.

    The time has now come.

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  2. If the list above (women suffering rape, abuse, job loss, etc. due to misguided men) is loving women as Christ loved the Church, then we would need a new Christ. Well, treating women like this is not love and has nothing to do with God and our Savior.

    Thank God #forsuchatimeasthis.

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  3. Beth74:
    “What I find highly ironic is that the theme of last year’s SBC meeting was Pray! For Such a Time as This.”

    Apparently, their prayers were very effective.

    The time has now come.

    And this year, the theme is “Testify. Go Stand Speak.” Which, in most SBC churches, women are not allowed to do in mixed company!

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  4. “A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church.”

    If the men would do this faithfully, maybe Jesus would get a stained glass window.

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  5. Just took a look at Diane Montgomery’s new blog.
    https://speakingthetruthofherheart.wordpress.com/2018/05/28/the-journey-begins/

    My favorite passage:

    “When I asked why other women were allowed to wear shorts and yoga pants, the RAC Director told me that women with a different, less curvy body type could break the dress code at the RAC because they wouldn’t be a stumbling block to men, but my curvier body was a stumbling block, so I wouldn’t be allowed to enter the facility unless I wore baggy men’s clothes to exercise. Afterward, I received an email from the Director apologizing for the discord the conversation put between us and that I got hurt, but that he felt he had made the right decision.”

    Got a boyish body type? You can dress like Twiggy. Got a curvy body type? You probably should wear a burka just to be on the safe side.

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  6. NJ:
    Just took a look at Diane Montgomery’s new blog.
    https://speakingthetruthofherheart.wordpress.com/2018/05/28/the-journey-begins/

    My favorite passage:

    “When I asked why other women were allowed to wear shorts and yoga pants, the RAC Director told me that women with a different, less curvy body type could break the dress code at the RAC because they wouldn’t be a stumbling block to men, but my curvier body was a stumbling block, so I wouldn’t be allowed to enter the facility unless I wore baggy men’s clothes to exercise. Afterward, I received an email from the Director apologizing for the discord the conversation put between us and that I got hurt, but that he felt he had made the right decision.”

    Got a boyish body type?You can dress like Twiggy.Got a curvy body type?You probably should wear a burka just to be on the safe side.

    I don’t know which body type to feel more sorry for: curvy girls (accused of being stumbling blocks), or the slender girls (because, obviously, no men would ever be interested in them).

    Uhg. I’d tell hem to kiss my grits, and find another place to work out.

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  7. Mr Patterson landed his rear end on Fox News website

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/23/southern-baptist-leader-paige-patterson-removed-over-complaints-dangerous-advice-to-abuse-victims.html

    I guess it gets even more serious when major media outlets are writing about you as well. These men are finally getting the spotlight they deserve. Its a shame because there are no doubt many good men in the SBC who will pay a price for their fall (trust is broken).

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  8. drstevej:
    “A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church.”

    If the men would do this faithfully, maybe Jesus would get a stained glass window.

    If male imitation of Christ’s sacrificial love were emphasized (and enforced!) as strongly and consistently as female submission, things might be a bit different. But it isn’t, which ought to be a hint even to its advocates that the complementarian view is more nearly about power relations than about obedience to God.

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  9. Samuel Conner: If male imitation of Christ’s sacrificial love were emphasized (and enforced!) as strongly and consistently as female submission, things might be a bit different. But it isn’t, which ought to be a hint even to its advocates that the complementarian view is more nearly about power relations than about obedience to God.

    What’d Jesus say??? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you ….. love they neighbor as thyself……….. unless, of course, those others and that neighbor are females????

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  10. Interesting the times are. If I recall correctly, the SBC officially (yet under the radar of most of its members) and only a few years ago adopted the neo-Cal doctrines of faith, tweaked and reinvented as misogyny and sociopathic patriarchy. And now this.
    It seems everything TGC touches turns to pooh.

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  11. NJ,

    I just read Diane’s post and was terribly saddened by what she endured in such a misogynistic environment. I never knew that women’s knees were so alluring to men. 🙁

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  12. Deb: I never knew that women’s knees were so alluring to men.

    If some of my co males are too easily distrated, maybe there’s a problem with *them*, not with the women whose bodies so easily distract them?

    So instead of handing out burqa-like clothing to women, let’s hand out blinders to any man who declares that the distraction caused by a woman in common attire is too difficult for him to bear.

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  13. Janet: Interesting the times are. If I recall correctly, the SBC officially (yet under the radar of most of its members) and only a few years ago adopted the neo-Cal doctrines of faith, tweaked and reinvented as misogyny and sociopathic patriarchy.

    An important point to remember which may very well get lost in all the hoopla about Paige Patterson!

    The New Calvinists are equally to blame for the oppression of female believers in the Southern Baptist Convention. While I’m not a fan of Paige Patterson and other ole boy non-Calvinist misogynistic leaders in SBC, the New Calvinists are taking advantage of recent Patterson, Pressler, and Page scandals to appear to take the high road on behalf of women. But, they too have been driving on a low road of oppression of female believers, masked as the “beauty of complementarity.” Anything they offer at the SBC-Dallas gathering will be a smoke screen to obscure their own sins in this regard.

    It’s not clear to me which faction of the SBC (Calvinist or non-Calvinist) is behind the women’s rally at SBC-Dallas. As Calvinization of the SBC continues at break-neck speed, women protesting (and they should) outside the convention center will benefit the New Calvinist candidate for SBC President, J.D. Greear. The picture is being painted that non-Calvinist leaders are just dirty ole men in the New Calvinist blogosphere. Unfortunately, the ole boys club is giving them enough evidence to support their claims. Architects of the Conservative Resurgence, Patterson & Pressler, are certainly coming across that way … while Al Mohler and his band of oppressive complementarians are appearing to be squeaky clean women-lovers (which they are not). When the meeting is over, the new reformers will return to their churches across America to subordinate their women and diminish their giftings in the Body of Christ, as a Calvinism Resurgence replaces the Conservative Resurgence.

    Bottom-line: the SBC has become an unhealthy place for female believers. Both non-Calvinist and New Calvinist patriarchs are to blame. There should be no partisan affiliation at the women’s rally in this regard. If things are going to change, an ax must be taken to the root of this tree … men of whatever theological flavor striving to keep women bound after Christ set them free, which is an unholy endeavor.

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  14. Deb: I never knew that women’s knees were so alluring to men.

    It’s the left eye that get’s to me. So please wear a pirate’s patch over that eye. Aaaaargh

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  15. I hope there is a strong turnout for this.

    Can I say how much submit ‘graciously to the servant leadership’ as phrasing annoys me?? Neither of those little things is in the bible. Might as well have stuff in ‘winsome’. Irritating.

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  16. NJ: “When I asked why other women were allowed to wear shorts and yoga pants, the RAC Director told me that women with a different, less curvy body type could break the dress code at the RAC because they wouldn’t be a stumbling block to men, but my curvier body was a stumbling block

    Yep. That sounds about right. Because women’s bodies themselves, particularly those with prominent curves, are evil in some fashion and should be covered up. That’s the message here.

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  17. Max,

    Yes, Yes, 70 times 7, yes.
    It has become, unfortunately, every faction for itself and, to use an old phrase, “The Devil take the hindmost”. The reckoning has come – but will it be full and complete, or will it wipe away only part, leaving the rest to rot further?

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  18. NJ,

    Look at this one!!

    My last year at SWBTS, I was awarded the Priscilla scholarship. Part of the scholarship entailed one-on-one mentorship meetings with Mrs. Patterson. The meetings turned into me becoming wait staff, serving hors d’oeuvres in the dining room corner at parties where Mrs. Patterson barely offered me a nod.

    Rude.

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  19. Rambler: The reckoning has come – but will it be full and complete, or will it wipe away only part, leaving the rest to rot further?

    Unless the SBC-Dallas gathering become a solemn assembly (Joel 1:13-15) and God is invited into the mix to work genuine repentance, SBC leaders and messengers will return to their respective places in SBC life to try to dress the wound while the decay spreads.

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  20. Lea: “My last year at SWBTS, I was awarded the Priscilla scholarship. Part of the scholarship entailed one-on-one mentorship meetings with Mrs. Patterson. The meetings turned into me becoming wait staff, serving hors d’oeuvres in the dining room corner at parties where Mrs. Patterson barely offered me a nod.” (Diane Montgomery)

    Snooty is not a fruit of the Spirit.

    All of this took place in SWBTS’s presidential mansion, Pecan Manor.

    pecan … a nut
    manor … an opulent house

    Pecan Manor = Nut House

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  21. The Great Commission does NOT say:

    “Therefore go and make disciples of MEN, baptizing MEN in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching MEN to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    If the patriarchal church wants Jesus to be with it always, it needs bring an end to the men’s only club and its subordination of women.

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  22. shauna: Mr Patterson landed his rear end on Fox News website

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/23/southern-baptist-leader-paige-patterson-removed-over-complaints-dangerous-advice-to-abuse-victims.html

    I guess it gets even more serious when major media outlets are writing about you as well. These men are finally getting the spotlight they deserve. Its a shame because there are no doubt many good men in the SBC who will pay a price for their fall (trust is broken).

    It is a shame…but, in the end, all things will be known.

    For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
    Luke 12:2

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  23. Max: Unless the SBC-Dallas gathering become a solemn assembly (Joel 1:13-15) and God is invited into the mix to work genuine repentance, SBC leaders and messengers will return to their respective places in SBC life to try to dress the wound while the decay spreads.

    I think God’s gonna be outside of the center with the women.

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  24. Max: All of this took place in SWBTS’s presidential mansion, Pecan Manor.

    pecan … a nut
    manor … an opulent house

    Pecan Manor = Nut House

    The retirement residence has “Pastor Del Hacienda” inscribed above a window but I keep thinking “Master of the House” from Les Miz.

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  25. Max: Wow, the New Calvinists have even let a woman speak on one of their leading blogs!

    Seems to me that she is toeing the company line of women leading women only. She sounds a lot more like Mrs. Patterson than Mrs. Criswell (who taught a mixed class for years that was broadcast on the radio)

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  26. Deb: I never knew that women’s knees were so alluring to men.

    Back in the 19th century it was women’s ankles. So much depends on contemporary fashion for what is considered alluring and provocative.

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  27. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): Beth74:
    “What I find highly ironic is that the theme of last year’s SBC meeting was Pray! For Such a Time as This.”

    Apparently, their prayers were very effective.

    The time has now come.

    And this year, the theme is “Testify. Go Stand Speak.” Which, in most SBC churches, women are not allowed to do in mixed company!

    I know, right!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  28. drstevej: It’s the left eye that get’s to me. So please wear a pirate’s patch over that eye. Aaaaargh

    Yer’ sposeta’ pluck it out then, if ya wanna’ be truly Biblical and obey God’s Word…

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  29. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): I don’t know which body type to feel more sorry for: curvy girls (accused of being stumbling blocks), or the slender girls (because, obviously, no men would ever be interested in them).

    Uhg. I’d tell hem to kiss my grits, and find another place to work out.

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    I’m starting to wonder if that RAC director was actually Sir Mix-a-lot.

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  30. Lea: Yep. That sounds about right. Because women’s bodies themselves, particularly those with prominent curves, are evil in some fashion and should be covered up. That’s the message here.

    Trying to walk the line between making oneself attractive to the opposite sex in order to get that M.R.S. degree, but not causing them to lust after you, must be exhausting.

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  31. I have gone through the website and cannot find the Name of any group or name of the People coordinating this rally or who hosts the site. Does anyone know where this originated or who is coordinating it?

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  32. FW Rez: Seems to me that she is toeing the company line of women leading women only.

    Her husband is a “lead” pastor, an obvious New Calvinist as evidenced by his retweets of Al Mohler, Danny Akin, Russell Moore, etc. She has to toe the company line!

    I fully expect that most of the women protesting at SBC-Dallas will be from New Calvinist churches, who have bought the complementarian lie about their roles. Oh, there will be some non-Calvinists mingling with them who are equally upset by men acting badly. As I noted upstream, SBC New Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike share in the unBiblical treatment of women, who control, manipulate and intimidate the spiritual life out of female believers.

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  33. NJ:
    Everything Diane described in her post was rude, demeaning, chauvinist, sexist, and in the case of the financial shenanigans, avaricious.

    For real. It sounds like in pattersons world (and many others) they are criticized for either…

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  34. NJ: Trying to walk the line between making oneself attractive to the opposite sex in order to get that M.R.S. degree, but not causing them to lust after you, must be exhausting.

    This is the part I meant to quote above.

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  35. Lea:
    I hope there is a strong turnout for this.

    Can I say how much submit ‘graciously to the servant leadership’ as phrasing annoys me??Neither of those little things is in the bible. Might as well have stuff in ‘winsome’. Irritating.

    Mary Mohler and Dorothy Patterson, along with their husbands, share equal responsibility for this addition to the BF&M.

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  36. NJ: Back in the 19th century it was women’s ankles.So much depends on contemporary fashion for what is considered alluring and provocative.

    Proper ‘ladies’ back then covered their elbows as well.

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  37. NJ: Trying to walk the line between making oneself attractive to the opposite sex in order to get that M.R.S. degree, but not causing them to lust after you, must be exhausting.

    So true!!!

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  38. Deb: Proper ‘ladies’ back then covered their elbows as well.

    Hair can be a problem too. And a veil is not always sufficient.

    Song of Solomon 4:1

    “How beautiful you are, my darling! Oh, how beautiful! Your eyes behind your veil are doves. Your hair is like a flock of goats descending from the hills of Gilead.”

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  39. On Gender, Power, and Sin: The Evangelical #MeToo Moment
    http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2018/05/on-gender-power-and-sin-evangelical.html

    From the Experimental Theology blog:

    An irony here is that many evangelicals admit all this, that men have a natural, durable “nature” characterized by dominance and aggression, the characteristics that make men great leaders and warriors.

    That’s the positive spin on those traits. But the darker side of those traits are a proneness to violence and abuse.

    I say this is an irony because evangelicals describe men as being “naturally” wired for dominance and aggression.

    And then they espouse a model of gender relations that gives power to the gender characterized by dominance and aggression. And then they express surprise that this arrangement didn’t work out so well.

    Given their view of the genders, let me express the irony of the evangelical position this way. Complementarianism isn’t a problem because there are no differences between the genders.

    Complementarianism is a problem because there are differences between the genders.

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  40. Deb: Mary Mohler and Dorothy Patterson, along with their husbands, share equal responsibility for this addition to the BF&M

    Ah, but those two get all the perks!

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  41. Deb: It’s really hard to say right now what the true motivations are. The Neo-Cals jumped all over the petition a few weeks ago.

    I think there will be some on both sides in there.

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  42. Deb:
    Beth74,

    It’s really hard to say right now what the true motivations are. The Neo-Cals jumped all over the petition a few weeks ago.

    I guess someone will have to actually go to the rally to see who’s behind it and what they’re advocating.

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  43. Deb: Mary Mohler and Dorothy Patterson, along with their husbands, share equal responsibility for this addition to the BF&M.

    Yep, there’s trouble on both sides of the SBC fence. Makes you wonder if the good doctors ‘made’ their poor wives take this stand. The two camps don’t agree on God’s plan of salvation, but find common ground in subordinating women. How sick is that?!

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  44. Deb,

    On tour in Israel a few years ago, when visiting the temple mount (administered by muslims) we women had to wear long pants and have our elbows covered. The men were allowed to show a lot more skin.

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  45. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): Beth74,

    At least you don’t have to state that you agree with the BFM2000 to sign up!

    Yeah, my family was advised to leave the Southern Baptist Church after 15+ years as Baptists because my husband told the pastor he believed a Christian still ought to keep the 10 Commandments after they are saved.

    Guess they’re not concerned much with accountability or “walking worthy of your vocation” in Christ.

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  46. Beth74: Max,
    You really think this is a stealth effort to thwart real concerns women have about the SBC?

    No, I think New Calvinist women have genuine concerns (which I agree with) about bad-boy patriarchs in the traditional wing of the SBC. Indeed, all SBC women (whether non-Calvinist or New Calvinist) have legitimate concerns about being treated as lesser citizens of the Kingdom by both theological factions. However, I also think that New Calvinists are piling on Patterson et al. for such a time as this to advance the reformed movement. From their history of lying their way into traditional churches to takeover buildings and other resources for the reformed cause, they are not beyond stealth and deception in anything they do. Coming across as supportive of women from a bunch who subordinate the spiritual life out of them, just has a strange aura about it. If the gathering of protesters are primarily the wives of New Calvinist men, there may be more than one cause they hope to advance in Dallas.

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  47. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    Lol.through the UN NGO’s, no less. Usually no names are given in case it’s a big flop. If it’s a success they will come out of the woodwork as the saviors of SBC women. If only they had been this outraged by mahaney. Oh well.

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  48. Lea: Look at this one!!
    My last year at SWBTS, I was awarded the Priscilla scholarship. Part of the scholarship entailed one-on-one mentorship meetings with Mrs. Patterson. The meetings turned into me becoming wait staff, serving hors d’oeuvres in the dining room corner at parties where Mrs. Patterson barely offered me a nod.
    Rude.

    This is what happens to adult singles in many churches, Southern Baptist too. We’re supposed to do the grunt work for the church at large, and be free babysitters to the couples who have small kids.

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  49. NJ: Trying to walk the line between making oneself attractive to the opposite sex in order to get that M.R.S. degree, but not causing them to lust after you, must be exhausting.

    Women are subjected to all sort of contradictory advice and expectations inside and outside of the church, by Christians and by Non-Christians.

    Some Christians are fans of Jordan Peterson, Peterson who implied in one interview that women wearing make-up to a job are hypocrites if they complain about being sexually harassed by men, because if a woman wears make up to a job, she is “sexualizing” the work place.

    (Er no, in many jobs, especially professional office jobs, women are expected to wear make-up, in the way men are expected to wear suits.)

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  50. Max: s I noted upstream, SBC New Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike share in the unBiblical treatment of women, who control, manipulate and intimidate the spiritual life out of female believers

    I dislike sexism regardless of who is teaching it or supporting it, and all sides do it – Calvinists (via complementarianism), Non-Calvinists (via complementarianism), both major American political parties, liberals, conservatives, etc.

    But all those groups don’t want to own up to the sexism in their own group – they only want to point it out in other groups. I see this constantly.

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  51. Max,

    I agree that the mistreatment of women does not just lie with Patterson and I have been side eyeing the bifurcation a lot of SBC leaders are implying that the mistreatment of women lies solely in Patterson and not in any of their groups, persons, or systems.

    As I said on another thread, all my pain, abuse, and mistreatment, gaslighing *galore*, my SBC story, came from the non-Patterson groups and systems you mention. And it didn’t happen 10-15 years ago. Mine is recent.

    I left the SBC and am not going back. But I have been watching to see how this all plays out. So far I don’t see any sort of siginificant sign of self-reflection on enablement and general social psychology and system talk quite yet. Right now everything is centered on Patterson. And of course that leads to discussion of systems and ideals, but it hasn’t gotten past Patterson yet. Maybe it will.

    But I’m at the place where I am mostly trying to move on, process all the pieces and layers and move forward, find myself with people who treat me well.

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  52. jyjames: If the list above (women suffering rape, abuse, job loss, etc. due to misguided men) is loving women as Christ loved the Church, then we would need a new Christ. Well, treating women like this is not love and has nothing to do with God and our Savior.

    This, of course, suggests a genuine desire to be like Christ, whereas the CR/Fundamentalist Takeover was all about preserving white male privilege. This is pooh-poohed, naturally, by – you guessed it – the very white males demanding complete authority and control. They reduced ‘love your wives as Christ loved the church’ to opening doors for them; whereas, what most women want from their husbands is the same thing husbands ought to want from their wives – genuine respect and an earnest attempt to know and understand them.

    All women are no more cut from the same cloth than are all men. Nor was ‘The Church’ (which actually is not even mentioned in scripture) ever authorized to control the make-up, goals and functions that rightly belong to the individual and the family.

    This is about so much more than Patriarchy, which is bad enough. It is about slyly sneaking in the Creedalism that Baptists long rejected, and granting ‘The Church’ a false and damaging authority to manipulate and control people. The problem demands much more than just a re-examination of doctrine; it demands the restoration of freedom of conscience and the autonomy of the individual. This was granted by Jesus when he essentially condemned and obliterated the corrupt institutional religious establishment of his day. What we are looking at is its reestablishment by power hungry men, with strong ties to the political establishment. There is much documentation of the scheming and methodology used by Patterson, Pressler, Mohler and others as they essentially drove out all reasonable, thoughtful leaders and teachers from the SBC and put in their hand-picked yes men. People need to know their history. This is so much more than just a random straying from good doctrine.

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  53. Max: the New Calvinists are taking advantage of recent Patterson, Pressler, and Page scandals to appear to take the high road on behalf of women. But, they too have been driving on a low road of oppression of female believers, masked as the “beauty of complementarity.” Anything they offer at the SBC-Dallas gathering will be a smoke screen to obscure their own sins in this regard.

    For example, consider this from Jason Allen, President MWBTS (formerly Al Mohler’s executive assistant at SBTS) … Allen’s resolution “On Affirming the Dignity of Women and the Holiness of Ministers” to be voted on at SBC-Dallas:

    http://sbcvoices.com/dr-jason-allens-resolution-on-on-affirming-the-dignity-of-women-and-the-holiness-of-ministers/

    High road or low road?

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  54. emily honey: Right now everything is centered on Patterson. And of course that leads to discussion of systems and ideals, but it hasn’t gotten past Patterson yet. Maybe it will.

    The New Calvinists will carefully control the narrative at SBC-Dallas.

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  55. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    Beth74,
    At least you don’t have to state that you agree with the BFM2000 to sign up!

    For real.

    I’ve been out of the SBC for a long time, but this is a point that needs to be made. I just wish they’d make it all the way (women are fully equal not just in ‘essence’)

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  56. Max: For example, consider this from Jason Allen, President MWBTS (formerly Al Mohler’s executive assistant at SBTS) … Allen’s resolution “On Affirming the Dignity of Women and the Holiness of Ministers” to be voted on at SBC-Dallas:

    Ah, you saw that, too! Low road in high road disguise.
    http://sbcvoices.com/dr-jason-allens-resolution-on-on-affirming-the-dignity-of-women-and-the-holiness-of-ministers/

    High road or low road?

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  57. emily honey: Right now everything is centered on Patterson. And of course that leads to discussion of systems and ideals, but it hasn’t gotten past Patterson yet. Maybe it will.

    I hope so. Or at least, when people have opened up about the treatment of women in one quarter, it will lead to the open discussion of treatment in another. Because it all needs to go.

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  58. Lea: For real.

    I’ve been out of the SBC for a long time, but this is a point that needs to be made. I just wish they’d make it all the way (women are fully equal not just in ‘essence’)

    I have decided that if I put any more money in An SBC offering plate, it will be in the form of a foreign currency. Equal in value, but different.

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  59. Max: Janet: Interesting the times are. If I recall correctly, the SBC officially (yet under the radar of most of its members) and only a few years ago adopted the neo-Cal doctrines of faith, tweaked and reinvented as misogyny and sociopathic patriarchy.

    An important point to remember which may very well get lost in all the hoopla about Paige Patterson!

    The New Calvinists are equally to blame for the oppression of female believers in the Southern Baptist Convention. While I’m not a fan of Paige Patterson and other ole boy non-Calvinist misogynistic leaders in SBC, the New Calvinists are taking advantage of recent Patterson, Pressler, and Page scandals to appear to take the high road on behalf of women. But, they too have been driving on a low road of oppression of female believers, masked as the “beauty of complementarity.” Anything they offer at the SBC-Dallas gathering will be a smoke screen to obscure their own sins in this regard.

    It’s not clear to me which faction of the SBC (Calvinist or non-Calvinist) is behind the women’s rally at SBC-Dallas. As Calvinization of the SBC continues at break-neck speed, women protesting (and they should) outside the convention center will benefit the New Calvinist candidate for SBC President, J.D. Greear. The picture is being painted that non-Calvinist leaders are just dirty ole men in the New Calvinist blogosphere. Unfortunately, the ole boys club is giving them enough evidence to support their claims. Architects of the Conservative Resurgence, Patterson & Pressler, are certainly coming across that way … while Al Mohler and his band of oppressive complementarians are appearing to be squeaky clean women-lovers (which they are not). When the meeting is over, the new reformers will return to their churches across America to subordinate their women and diminish their giftings in the Body of Christ, as a Calvinism Resurgence replaces the Conservative Resurgence.

    Bottom-line: the SBC has become an unhealthy place for female believers. Both non-Calvinist and New Calvinist patriarchs are to blame. There should be no partisan affiliation at the women’s rally in this regard. If things are going to change, an ax must be taken to the root of this tree … men of whatever theological flavor striving to keep women bound after Christ set them free, which is an unholy endeavor.

    Absolutely on target, Max! Mohler’s response and false sadness over the current state of affairs in the SBC is the biggest hypocritical false shepherd move since John Calvin walked this earth. He used the same tactics; castigating the Catholics for their abuses, then one-upping them with even greater authoritarian abuse! Never, ever trust the nice sounding words of men – look at the totality of their lives, writings and teaching to judge them properly. When people read the well-parsed verbiage of Calvin, he sounds so godly and meek. When they read his bitter, angry tirades and learn of the unspeakable torture and murder he approved of any who dissented from him, they see his true colors.

    The Calvinists definitely seem to be behind this sudden attempt to blame all of the misogyny and evil of their system on the good ol’ boys behind Patterson, who are mere schoolboys compered to the puritanical Calvinists.

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  60. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    http://sbcvoices.com/dr-jason-allens-resolution-on-on-affirming-the-dignity-of-women-and-the-holiness-of-ministers/
    Blech.

    If you have to do that, you’re already way behind the 8’ball. This is BASIC and should not require a resolution! What nonsense.

    “WHEREAS, the Baptist Faith and Message states the complementary call of husbands and wives”

    They lost me…(blahblahblah, they snuck this in there when it has beans to do with all the rampant misogyny and treatment of women, girls and boys in church.

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  61. NJ: women with a different, less curvy body type could break the dress code at the RAC because they wouldn’t be a stumbling block to men, but my curvier body was a stumbling block…

    This is beyond parody. (I’m assuming it’s not actually a parody, because sadly, it may not be.)

    Secular men (of all body types, mine included) share mixed gyms with women (also of all body types) without tripping over them. But spiritual men apparently can’t control themselves or keep their balance. And how do they avoid stumbling over the loose weights and other equipment if they can’t prevent themselves stumbling over curvy women?

    Perhaps these institutions should be run by non-believing men, who are more resilient and sure-footed.

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  62. truthseeker00: This is about so much more than Patriarchy, which is bad enough. It is about slyly sneaking in the Creedalism that Baptists long rejected, and granting ‘The Church’ a false and damaging authority to manipulate and control people.

    Agreed. Everything else, as miserable as everything else is, is just flailing at the branches and kicking against the pricks. There is no free church of Jesus Christ within New Calvinism. Baptists have historically rejected being tied to creeds; surrendering to New Calvinism will cause Southern Baptists to lose their identity … which, despite their failings have identified with Christ, rather than Calvin.

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  63. Nick Bulbeck: Perhaps these institutions should be run by non-believing men, who are more resilient and sure-footed.

    Funny how women seem to be safer out of then inside of these ‘Christian’ institutions…

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  64. Wait a minute. What does this mean?

    “RESOLVED, that we call upon our congregations and ministers, and especially our denominational employees, to guard their life and doctrine scrupulously, understanding that as they do they ensure salvation for themselves and for those to whom they minister; and be it further…”

    This seems to be saying that a certain action is necessary to ‘ensure salvation for themselves and…’ Really? Ensure salvation? Back in the day that would be the opposite of what Baptists thought about ‘salvation’. As much verbiage has been put forth assuring people that both salvation and also assurance of salvation has been ensured without having to do anything to ensure it how is it that now they are not assured of their ensured assurance? (I learned to talk like that from listening to one too many people in the pulpit who probably should not have been there.)

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  65. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): I have decided that if I put any more money in An SBC offering plate, it will be in the form of a foreign currency.Equal in value, but different.

    Anyone got a source of CONFEDERATE Money?
    (A twofer, given the origin story of the SBC…)

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  66. Lea: Funny how women seem to be safer out of then inside of these ‘Christian’ institutions…

    Sometimes all you can do is Walk Away from Omelas.

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  67. Daisy: This is what happens to adult singles in many churches, Southern Baptist too. We’re supposed to do the grunt work for the church at large, and be free babysitters to the couples who have small kids.

    Until you can Get Married; Then you get to sit at the Grown-Ups’ Table with all the other Grown-Ups and those Singles will have to Serve YOU!

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  68. okrapod: “RESOLVED, that we call upon our congregations and ministers, and especially our denominational employees, to guard their life and doctrine scrupulously, understanding that as they do they ensure salvation for themselves and for those to whom they minister; and be it further…”

    Telling, very telling. These people do not even affirm the doctrine of salvation that most Baptists, and other evangelicals, would affirm.

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  69. Beth74: I guess someone will have to actually go to the rally to see who’s behind it and what they’re advocating.

    I remember Eagle infiltrating rallies like that once or twice.

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  70. Daisy: That’s the positive spin on those traits. But the darker side of those traits are a proneness to violence and abuse.
    I say this is an irony because evangelicals describe men as being “naturally” wired for dominance and aggression.

    That was a default justification for Hypermasculinity, including the motivation of a certain Hypermasculine Austrian with a funny little mustache.

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  71. truthseeker00,

    Well, I don’t affirm that doctrine of salvation, either.

    Let’s get real, here: if an “eternally secure” Baptist willfully abuses their position of authority repeatedly, are they still eternally secure?

    How does that work with a Holy God, exactly?

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  72. okrapod: ‘ensure salvation for themselves and…’

    Yeah, a strange way for a Southern Baptist to refer to salvation!

    I also wonder if Dr. Allen had any New Calvinists in mind when he wrote the following, or just those dirty old men in SBC’s non-Calvinist ranks:

    “… a number of Southern Baptist leaders, professors, and ministers have since our last annual gathering sinned against the Lord and against women by their ungodly behavior and language …”

    Would he consider Al Mohler’s continued support of Mahaney ungodly behavior? Or the oppression of women by New Calvinist pastors/elders across SBC as sin?

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  73. “that we denounce not only sexual impropriety and abuse but also anyone who would facilitate or knowingly cover up such acts”

    What about Mahaney?!

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  74. Lydia: Salvation is ensured by the Holy pastor, I guess.

    That’s a New Calvinist stretch of “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls” (Hebrews 13:17).

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  75. Great article by Brian Maclaren on Mohler’s almost apology: https://religionnews.com/2018/05/29/mclaren-oped/

    He writes, aptly:

    “Unfortunately, the bulk of Mohler’s agony and call for mercy focused not on the pain suffered by women and girls at the hands of church leadership, but on the “humiliation” of his tribe, the SBC, which is led exclusively by men.

    Along the way, Mohler lands some jabs at “the liberals who left (the SBC and) have kept marching to the Left” and Catholics with their “unbiblical requirement of priestly celibacy” and their “cesspool of child sex abuse.” These jabs will no doubt play well to his base. But unfortunately, they run counter to an impression of deep repentance or a focus on the splinter in his own tribe’s eye.

    Equally disappointing, Mohler used his acknowledgment to defend the rightness of his tribe’s male-first theology, making it uncomfortably clear that at this moment, at least, his clearest and most intense concern is for Christ’s mercy to protect his theological system and the male-led denomination that upholds it.

    That’s not the same as experiencing deep empathy and understanding for the cries and experiences of those who have been abused.”

    Make no mistake, the Calvinists’ only ‘regret’is in getting caught out. Their intention is to throw their fellow patriarchalists and greatest rivals – the non-Calvinist fundamentalists – under the bus and cast all the blame for good ol’ boys behavior upon Patterson, et al.. Then, as Max has stated, the SBC rot will not only continue, but at an accelerated pace. At least the good ol’ southern boys came appeared gallant; the Calvinists have a hard time coming across as ‘nice’.

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  76. I could be wrong, but I’m thinking that part of Allen’s resolution is a covert way of saying that Complementarianism is crucial to the “gospel”.

    “WHEREAS, men throughout Scripture are called to the servant leadership of the home and of the worshipping community, imaging the self-sacrificial head of the church, Jesus Christ, through their covenantal headship of their home, committing themselves to the protection and defense of women …..”

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  77. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): I could be wrong, but I’m thinking that part of Allen’s resolution is a covert way of saying that Complementarianism is crucial to the “gospel”.

    Until they can manage to make a stupid statement about women being people, and worthy of respect and dignity, and truly equal to men without ‘affirming’ that men are still in charge? I don’t take a word they have to say seriously. Because it is obvious what is really most important to them.

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  78. Lea: Until they can manage to make a stupid statement about women being people, and worthy of respect and dignity, and truly equal to men without ‘affirming’ that men are still in charge? I don’t take a word they have to say seriously. Because it is obvious what is really most important to them.

    I’ve read the entire resolution. Sounds like they got caught kicking the dog and cussing the cat, so Allen came up with a resolution not to kick the dog and cuss the cat anymore.
    Seems to me, that’s about how they rank women, and I am a born-and-raised SBCer!

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  79. Grainne:
    Max,

    Max – would it do any good to put your thoughtson Jason Allens website?

    I.can’t.comment. If I did, my comment would get deeeee-leeeeeted!
    “Could we get a resolution affirming the dignity of trick ponies and show dogs, too?”

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  80. Just to set the record straight;
    “We believe Dorothy Patterson and Mary Mohler were the only two women who served on the committee to recommend this change.” is incorrect. The committee appointed by Paige Patterson at the 1999 SBC to review the BF&M63 and bring their recommendations for revisions to the 2000 SBC were 13 men and 2 women. The women were Susie Hawkins (TX) and Heather King (IN).

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  81. Beth74: Well, I don’t affirm that doctrine of salvation, either.

    Let’s get real, here: if an “eternally secure” Baptist willfully abuses their position of authority repeatedly, are they still eternally secure?

    How does that work with a Holy God, exactly?

    I am not Baptist, and do not, personally, affirm ‘Eternal Security’ or OSAS, (although I suppose Mohler and friends claim to?) but I certainly do not believe that one assures their salvation by maintaining the right doctrine. In fact I believe you can – and nearly all of us will – discover that your doctrine was at least a teensy bit off all along. It is a very Calvinistic mindset to put your trust in your doctrine. Heard that for over a decade before I bolted.

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  82. Max: “unflagging evangelization of the lost”

    New Calvinists do not evangelize the lost … they harvest the elect.

    Too true! My former Calvinist church (over a decade) was the only church in my over 50 years I never even heard anyone called to come to Christ. Lotsa doctrine, though, so, if doctrine saves, those people should be good to go.

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  83. If I understand correctly the whole basis for the gender issue is the idea that the creation stories in Genesis are to be understood literally in their details. The man was created first is used as an argument in the NT. The woman was taken from man-used as an argument. In other words, God made the male from the dust of the ground and only later came up with the idea of a female when it turned out that the man was not content with the animals (I don’t even want to think about the literal meaning of that.) So God did what we sometimes do with woody plants, He made a cutting which morphed into a female. The DNA got changed in the process but skip the details on that.

    But wait, the female got off track when she found something that promised food and knowledge and that is how we got into this mess in the first place. Meanwhile the male apparently momentarily thought that the original situation with the animals might have been good in the first place since he blamed God for making the female in the first place. So God was none too happy about all this and said to the woman, among other things that He said, that look what you have done now because now you have this dude to deal with-meaning the male.

    This means that the male should make all the decision because…well because…just because. Because he was so good at it in Eden perhaps.

    My problem is that so many people seem to believe that this is all some sort of history, science and philosophy and even divine revelation all rolled into one if and only if understood literally. How can this be? But, Paul believed it, some say. Maybe so, or maybe he was referencing his people’s mythology to prove a point; being all things to all men in order to win some? I don’t know, but how it is that we have what we now have from the pulpits of so many is amazing to me. Perhaps the saying that we are all quite mad has some truth to it.

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  84. GVM:
    Just to set the record straight;“We believe Dorothy Patterson and Mary Mohler were the only two women who served on the committee to recommend this change.” is incorrect.The committee appointed by Paige Patterson at the 1999 SBC to review the BF&M63 and bring their recommendations for revisions to the 2000 SBC were 13 men and 2 women.The women were Susie Hawkins (TX) and Heather King (IN).

    If you click on the link in the post where I talked about the change in BF&M language, you will see who served on the first committee that was appointed in 1997. They submitted their recommendation at the 1998 SBC meeting.

    http://www.utm.edu/staff/caldwell/bfm/1963-1998/report1998.html

    Those committee members were:

    Anthony Jordan
    Executive Director-Treasurer of the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma
    Bill Elliff
    Pastor of the First Baptist Church, Little Rock, Arkansas
    Richard Land
    President of The Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention
    Mary Mohler
    Homemaker and Director of the Seminary Wives Institute of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
    Dorothy Patterson
    Homemaker and adjunct faculty member of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
    Damon Shook
    Pastor of Champion Forest Baptist Church, Houston, Texas
    John Sullivan
    Executive Director-Treasurer of the Florida Baptist Convention

    I guess you are talking about a subsequent committee that was named.

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  85. okrapod: “RESOLVED, that we call upon our congregations and ministers, and especially our denominational employees, to guard their life and doctrine scrupulously, understanding that as they do they ensure salvation for themselves and for those to whom they minister; and be it further…”

    Upon reflection, I believe this is a paraphrase of 1 Tim 4:16.I believe that a lot of mistranslation/misinterpretation surrounds the words ‘save’ and ‘salvation’, so that we end up with some perhaps unintended-by-the-author doctrine at times.

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  86. truthseeker00: I certainly do not believe that one assures their salvation by maintaining the right doctrine. In fact I believe you can – and nearly all of us will – discover that your doctrine was at least a teensy bit off all along.

    Amen. The sheep and the goats were certainly not separated according to their doctrine.

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  87. okrapod,

    I find Paul’s argument in 1 Tim 2:11-15 a bit puzzling. The argument at face value seems to be that what happened in Garden has continuing implications for how teaching is done in the churches. The woman was deceived then; therefore today women should not teach or have authority over men.

    But if one embraces the premise that “what happened then in the Garden has continuing implications for how teaching and authority is to properly be done in the churches today”, then it would also seem to imply that since Adam also sinned, and he was married to a deceivable woman and influenced into his sin by her, then today married men should not teach or have authority either. We don’t want “liable to be deceived” women to teach or exercise authority; why would we grant authority to teach or rule to men who are liable to be influenced into rebellion against God by the women to whom they are married?

    Thus it seems to me that the logic of Paul’s argument leads to the view that is held by the Roman Catholic churches since the time of Gregory VII, that only males who are not married to females can teach and exercise authority.

    But this seems to be in conflict with aspects of Paul’s instructions on whom to consider for ordination to church office — “married to one woman”.

    I am strongly tempted by the inner tensions of Paul’s statements in different places to suspect, as has been proposed by others (I think I have encountered this at TWW in prior comments or perhaps a post), that Paul is here expressing personal preference along the line of his “I, not the Lord” recommendations about the preferability of singleness over marriage.

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  88. Grainne: Max – would it do any good to put your thoughts on Jason Allen’s website?

    My thoughts have never been welcome on any New Calvinist’s website! Besides, I’m sure he has lieutenants reporting to him on what’s posted on TWW. Lieutenant, if you’re listening in, did you know that Dr. Allen’s mentor Al Mohler fired Diana Garland, Dean of SBTS Carver School of Church Social Work? She wasn’t fond of Dr. Mohler’s position on women in ministry; he let her know what he thought about that and sent her packing. I wonder if the New Calvinist women protesting at SBC-Dallas will protest that, even though it’s 20+ year old bad news?

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  89. Samuel Conner,

    Indeed, Paul even states in verse 12, “But –I– suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”

    It is Paul’s preference. He gives his reasons.

    Some believe that Eve was an easier target for the devil because she had not been around for as long as Adam and had not been trained and educated in the way he was (similar to the women Paul instructs to do some Scripture learning at home with their husbands.) In that thinking, a woman who is properly trained and educated is suitable to teach all others.

    Some believe that often women, being generally more relationship-oriented than men, care more about what others think, and therefore can be more easily influenced.

    There may be some truth in that, as well. But I don’t think that’s true of all women…as generalizations are prone to exceptions.

    Paul attended Lydia’s prayer meeting at the river for several days. He commended Priscilla and Aquila for teaching Apollos doctrinal truths. He called a woman an apostle, and gave great weight and authority to a letter he received from Chloe.

    In all things, balance, temperance, and sensibility.

    We really ought to judge the character of a person, and not the gender.

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  90. Max: My thoughts have never been welcome on any New Calvinist’s website!Besides, I’m sure he has lieutenants reporting to him on what’s posted on TWW.Lieutenant, if you’re listening in, did you know that Dr. Allen’s mentor Al Mohler fired Diana Garland, Dean of SBTS Carver School of Church Social Work?She wasn’t fond of Dr. Mohler’s position on women in ministry; he let her know what he thought about that and sent her packing.I wonder if the New Calvinist women protesting at SBC-Dallas will protest that, even though it’s 20+ year old bad news?

    Max, I’ve been banned from both the SBC Calvinist and SBC non-Calvinist sites. I can’t even read either site.

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  91. Samuel Conner: Thus it seems to me that the logic of Paul’s argument leads to the view that is held by the Roman Catholic churches since the time of Gregory VII, that only males who are not married to females can teach and exercise authority.

    In practice, however, the Catholic church has not exactly done that. There were abbesses of mixed gender monasteries for example. There are women among the Doctors of the Church. There have been nuns who had a teaching ministry to mixed male and female audiences; as for example Mother Angelical of EWTN fame as a recent example. There have been both male and female saints who were married. So, only males is not consistent with catholic history and neither is only celibate persons consistent with church history. Currently there are some married male catholic priests also. And some nuns who are church administrators in the absence of a full time resident priest. While only a priest (celibate or married) can consecrate the elements the consecrated elements can be used for the sacrament in certain circumstances by non-priests. And married or unmarried male deacons have various designated functions which may overlap with certain otherwise priestly functions.

    The Roman Catholic Church is much better at all this than conservative protestants as a whole, in my opinion. I think that people see celibacy as currently practiced and have such a negative emotional reaction to it, that it is easy to miss the rest of the story.

    But I am not any authority on this and I am not a Roman so any catholics here please correct me on this as needed. I feel very strongly that there is a lot of misunderstanding between catholics and protestants and I big time think we will all be better off is we develop some better understandings. That means starting with me, so please submit corrections.

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  92. Beth74: We really ought to judge the character of a person, and not the gender.

    Amen! We would do well to recognize and mobilize the gifts of God given to His church, regardless of the gender possessing them. The early Church did – that should be our model, rather than one patterned by men who control and intimidate women in their version of church.

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  93. Max,

    I’m wondering when Wayne Grudem will be breaking HIS silence? After all, he was the main driver of complementarianism and a contributor to the ESV bible translating the curse for women as, “desires CONTRARY” to her husband instead of the original language of, “desires TOWARD” her husband.”

    Much more to say, but the curse for the man is still alive and active and influencing SBC men who have an infatuation with RULING over the women.

    Mr. Grudem…please, hold your silence no longer. We need a theologian of your influence that will back up the train and admit, “I was wrong.” “Better late than never,” would be a good motto about now.

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  94. I wish there would be a voluntary MeToo movement among church leaders and pastors across America. “It’s MeToo Jesus, standing in the need of prayer.” At this juncture, we need a come go Jesus moment … by the pulpit!

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  95. Augustine: I’m wondering when Wayne Grudem will be breaking HIS silence?

    Dr. Mohler probably asked Grudem to lay low for a while. He was becoming a liability, rather than an asset to the New Calvinist movement.

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  96. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): Deb: Mary Mohler and Dorothy Patterson, along with their husbands, share equal responsibility for this addition to the BF&M
    Ah, but those two get all the perks!

    Mary and Dorothy…how kind of you to submit to and support your husbands leadership who are the epitome of malehood and headship. Have they girded a towel and washed your feet recently?

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  97. Lea: Look at this one!!
    My last year at SWBTS, I was awarded the Priscilla scholarship. Part of the scholarship entailed one-on-one mentorship meetings with Mrs. Patterson. The meetings turned into me becoming wait staff, serving hors d’oeuvres in the dining room corner at parties where Mrs. Patterson barely offered me a nod.
    Rude.

    Deceptive.

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  98. emily honey: truthseeker00,
    I agree that the hyper-authoritarian spirit in the SBC the past 30 or so years is the root culprit behind everything.

    ANY authoritarian structure is problematic in the church.

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  99. Lea: Nick Bulbeck: Perhaps these institutions should be run by non-believing men, who are more resilient and sure-footed.
    Funny how women seem to be safer out of then inside of these ‘Christian’ institutions…

    Worth noting.

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  100. Beth74</stronah

    Beth74: Evidently, the Baptists are being forced to own up to the fact that salvation is ensured by actually ACTING like a Christian, not just professing to be one.

    I suspect they have a very different definition of “acting like a Christian” than you do. 🙂

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  101. Deb: Several years ago Wayne Grudem revealed that he has been diagnosed with Parkinson’s Disease.

    That would explain his absence from the current New Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist scuffles in SBC ranks. He has more serious stuff to deal with than folks vying for position.

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  102. Lydia:
    I have gone through the website and cannot find the Name of any group or name of the People coordinating this rally or who hosts the site. Does anyone know where this originated or who is coordinating it?

    I am aware of a couple of the people behind it and they are not patriarchists. Neither Pattersonites, nor New Cals. They give this away a little bit on the site when they disagree with the firing of women from the seminaries, their rejection of absolute anti-divorce stances, and in that they hint that they reject biblical counseling for abuse and divorce.

    Their choices of articles to repost are telling as well–TWW, Wade, and Diane’s articles are all featured, and Mohler’s is not.

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  103. Samuel Conner:
    okrapod,

    I find Paul’s argument in 1 Tim 2:11-15 a bit puzzling. The argument at face value seems to be that what happened in Garden has continuing implications for how teaching is done in the churches. The woman was deceived then; therefore today women should not teach or have authority over men.

    But if one embraces the premise that “what happened then in the Garden has continuing implications for how teaching and authority is to properly be done in the churches today”, then it would also seem to imply that since Adam also sinned, and he was married to a deceivable woman and influenced into his sin by her, then today married men should not teach or have authority either. We don’t want “liable to be deceived” women to teach or exercise authority; why would we grant authority to teach or rule to men who are liable to be influenced into rebellion against God by the women to whom they are married?

    Thus it seems to me that the logic of Paul’s argument leads to the view that is held by the Roman Catholic churches since the time of Gregory VII, that only males who are not married to females can teach and exercise authority.

    But this seems to be in conflict with aspects of Paul’s instructions on whom to consider for ordination to church office — “married to one woman”.

    I am strongly tempted by the inner tensions of Paul’s statements in different places to suspect, as has been proposed by others (I think I have encountered this at TWW in prior comments or perhaps a post), that Paul is here expressing personal preference along the line of his “I, not the Lord” recommendations about the preferability of singleness over marriage.

    The late J. Vernon McGee has an interesting take on this passage. He was a DTS graduate, as conservative as they come and his Through the Bible radio program is still on even though he has been dead for 30 years. His commentary on verses 9-10 states that if a woman sings, speaks or takes part in a worship service she needs to keep in mind that her appeal should in no way be based on sex. He goes on to say that verses 11-12 are dealing with the teaching of doctrine and Paul again is cautioning against woman teaching because the leaders of the pagan religions in Ephesus were woman and sexual orgies were part of the services. Dr. McGee states that Paul’s suggestion that woman not speak publicly was because he was concerned about people who were used to a religion that was based on sexual practices being derailed if a woman taught. This suggests that Paul’s statements are culturally based. Dr. McGee, while very traditional, even states that he supported a woman preacher in a town revival because she was preaching the gospel even though it wasn’t his preference. According to his commentary verses 13-15 are suggesting that because Eve sinned first, every time a child is born she brings another sinner in the world. However, the she shall be saved through childbirth is referring to Mary giving birth to Christ.

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  104. BJ: According to his commentary verses 13-15 are suggesting that because Eve sinned first, every time a child is born she brings another sinner in the world. However, the she shall be saved through childbirth is referring to Mary giving birth to Christ.

    A lot of what McGee says sounds pretty okay.

    But Mary was human, too, and Jesus’ flesh was from her DNA, so that would mean he would have to be a sinner, too (which he wasn’t.)

    Which messes with the whole idea of babies being born sinners from the get-go.

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  105. Deb: Max,
    Yes. He was vocal at the ETS meeting at which The Trinity was discussed a couple years ago.
    http://www.waynegrudem.com/ets-presentation-on-trinity-11-15-16/

    You don’t want to miss this debate at Biola U regarding “eternal subordination of the Son” and Grudem’s and Bruce Ware’s grounding of gender subordination in “eternal subordination of the Son” and in the Trinity.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0_mYvbgcKE&t=1868s

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  106. Lydia: And countless other female faculty.

    Regarding Al Mohler’s poor treatment of SBTS female professors, the New Calvinists look the other way when it’s their guy.

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  107. In all my years of monitoring the SBC annual meetings, I don’t recall a female messenger ever taking the mic on the convention floor to make any resolutions or question the speakers. I suppose it’s happened, but I just never saw it. Maybe this will be the year!

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  108. Deb: He was vocal at the ETS meeting at which The Trinity was discussed a couple years ago.

    Grudem was getting close to being branded a heretic by his theologian peers at that one.

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  109. BJ: The late J. Vernon McGee has an interesting take on this passage.He was a DTS graduate, as conservative as they come and his Through the Bible radio program is still on even though he has been dead for 30 years. His commentary on verses 9-10 states that if a woman sings, speaks or takes part in a worship service she needs to keep in mind that her appeal should in no way be based on sex.He goes on to say that verses 11-12 are dealing with the teaching of doctrine and Paul again is cautioning against woman teaching because the leaders of the pagan religions in Ephesus were woman and sexual orgies were part of the services.Dr. McGee states that Paul’s suggestion that woman not speak publicly was because he was concerned about people who were used to a religion that was based on sexual practices being derailed if a woman taught.This suggests that Paul’s statements are culturally based.Dr. McGee, while very traditional, even states that he supported a woman preacher in a town revival because she was preaching the gospel even though it wasn’t his preference.According to his commentary verses 13-15 are suggesting that because Eve sinned first, every time a child is born she brings another sinner in the world.However, the she shall be saved through childbirth is referring to Mary giving birth to Christ.

    I used to listen to J. Vernon McGee every morning. He was one of the best bible commenters I have ever heard. Very down to earth, rubber meets the road theology. He would not put up with this nonsense that is going on today.

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  110. Mark Dever: A Word of Empathy, Warning, and Counsel for “Narrow” Complementarians
    https://www.9marks.org/article/a-word-of-empathy-warning-and-counsel-for-narrow-complementarians/

    Is it just me, or is this a bunch of double-talk? I can’t even make sense of Dever’s vacillating on this issue. As with many of the male sect in the SBC, it seems he’s trying to distance himself from the worst of the worst in the SBC who marginalize women. Problem is, he’s in the “worst” category and doing a very poor job of distancing of distinguishing himself as any different. Nice try, Dever. Try again later.

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  111. Augustine: Mark Dever: A Word of Empathy, Warning, and Counsel for “Narrow” Complementarians
    https://www.9marks.org/article/a-word-of-empathy-warning-and-counsel-for-narrow-complementarians/

    Is it just me, or is this a bunch of double-talk?

    Double-talk, hypocrisy, smoke screen.

    As I noted in an upstream comment:

    “The New Calvinists are equally to blame for the oppression of female believers in the Southern Baptist Convention. While I’m not a fan of Paige Patterson and other ole boy non-Calvinist misogynistic leaders in SBC, the New Calvinists are taking advantage of recent Patterson, Pressler, and Page scandals to appear to take the high road on behalf of women. But, they too have been driving on a low road of oppression of female believers, masked as the “beauty of complementarity.” Anything they offer at the SBC-Dallas gathering will be a smoke screen to obscure their own sins in this regard.”

    As truthseeker noted “The Calvinists definitely seem to be behind this sudden attempt to blame all of the misogyny and evil of their system on the good ol’ boys behind Patterson, who are mere schoolboys compared to the puritanical Calvinists.”

    High road or low road? When it comes to the oppression of female believers by their unBiblical complementarian belief and practice, they are not all of a sudden pro-women. Their is a motive behind their niceness … perhaps to fool the protestors and media who will be there and get them focused on the bad boys in the other camp. These guys are slick.

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  112. Max: That would explain his absence from the current New Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist scuffles in SBC ranks.He has more serious stuff to deal with than folks vying for position.

    I don’t mean to sound cold and callous. I am sorry that Grudem is ill. But, what comes around goes around. He will soon be completely dependent upon his wife to care for him and protect him, if he isn’t already.

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  113. Beth74: Let’s get real, here: if an “eternally secure” Baptist willfully abuses their position of authority repeatedly, are they still eternally secure?

    When it comes to perseverance of the saints, you must first be a saint before you can persevere. One must be truly born of God by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be eternally secure. There is little evidence of spiritual regeneration in the behavior of certain bad-boy leaders and pastors in the SBC. You will know them by their fruit.

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  114. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar),

    Probably.

    https://www.9marks.org/article/a-word-of-empathy-warning-and-counsel-for-narrow-complementarians/

    The podcast on the topic (same link) between Dever and Leeman is even more interesting. Not their typical snarky style…more careful, but still feels cunning, nonetheless.

    They’re now speaking about “gray” areas between egalitarian and complementarian. Never heard them even slightly elude to that one before.

    Seems like Dever is trying to influence Leeman but who could know the true agenda?

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  115. Augustine: https://www.9marks.org/article/a-word-of-empathy-warning-and-counsel-for-narrow-complementarians/

    “A woman ought to act according to her design, her hardwiring, her DNA, her body, her social and psychological constitution. A man, too. Doing so is wise, just as it’s wise to operate everything according to its design principles—from computers, to space-shuttles, to chess.” (Jonathan Leeman)

    Brother!

    In the Kingdom of God, each believer (male and female) are to operate according to their spiritual gifting not their “hardwiring.” Allowing all God’s children to function freely where ‘He’ puts them in the Body of Christ, rather than where men think they belong, is wise.

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  116. Augustine: Not their typical snarky style…more careful, but still feels cunning, nonetheless.

    Perhaps they fear that they will soon have a rebellion of women in New Calvinism shortly. I keep waiting for female believers trapped in “the beauty of complementarity” to rise up and shout “Just a darn minute here!” and then begin to drag their sorry husbands / boyfriends out of this mess.

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  117. NJ: “When I asked why other women were allowed to wear shorts and yoga pants, the RAC Director told me that women with a different, less curvy body type could break the dress code at the RAC because they wouldn’t be a stumbling block to men, but my curvier body was a stumbling block, so I wouldn’t be allowed to enter the facility unless I wore baggy men’s clothes to exercise.

    What a debilitating and stultifying hamster wheel of a religion to try and practice!

    Women’s bodies are their own and have nothing whatsoever to do with men’s ability or inability to control their reproductive urges.

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  118. Max,

    Interesting and astute observations on how the politics behind all of this may go. I agree, the neo-Cals are no safer for women, but this could play right into their hands.

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  119. Max: In the Kingdom of God, each believer (male and female) are to operate according to their spiritual gifting not their “hardwiring.” Allowing all God’s children to function freely where ‘He’ puts them in the Body of Christ, rather than where men think they belong, is wise

    Thanks, Max. Good way to put it.

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  120. truthseeker00: At least the good ol’ southern boys came appeared gallant; the Calvinists have a hard time coming across as ‘nice’.

    The difference between Boss Hogg and a Baptized-in-Vinegar Puritan.

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  121. NJ: Trying to walk the line between making oneself attractive to the opposite sex in order to get that M.R.S. degree, but not causing them to lust after you, must be exhausting.

    Impossible I think. You just can’t please those guys.

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  122. Nick Bulbeck: But spiritual men apparently can’t control themselves or keep their balance. And how do they avoid stumbling over the loose weights and other equipment if they can’t prevent themselves stumbling over curvy women?

    Haven’t laughed so hard in weeks. Thanks for that.

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  123. Max: Regarding Al Mohler’s poor treatment of SBTS female professors, the New Calvinists look the other way when it’s their guy.

    It looks to be more than that. It looks to me like a coordinated effort to pin all SBC misogyny on Patterson so they could reimage the SBC as more female friendly and scape goat Patterson for the recent past, too. Get rid of him as fixing the real problem and ignore everyone else like Mohler, Moore, etc. (The list is long)

    Mass deception and manipulation. It often works, sadly. No good guys here, imo. Just clever ones.

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  124. ishy: I am aware of a couple of the people behind it and they are not patriarchists. Neither Pattersonites, nor New Cals. They give this away a little bit on the site when they disagree with the firing of women from the seminaries, their rejection of absolute anti-divorce stances, and in that they hint that they reject biblical counseling for abuse and divorce.

    Their choices of articles to repost are telling as well–TWW, Wade, and Diane’s articles are all featured, and Mohler’s is not.

    Men? Women? Both? I would never show up to anything like that where they did not identify themselves. But that’s just me because I hate being easily manipulated. But other people’s mileage will vary.

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  125. BJ: The late J. Vernon McGee has an interesting take on this passage.He was a DTS graduate, as conservative as they come and his Through the Bible radio program is still on even though he has been dead for 30 years. His commentary on verses 9-10 states that if a woman sings, speaks or takes part in a worship service she needs to keep in mind that her appeal should in no way be based on sex.He goes on to say that verses 11-12 are dealing with the teaching of doctrine and Paul again is cautioning against woman teaching because the leaders of the pagan religions in Ephesus were woman and sexual orgies were part of the services.Dr. McGee states that Paul’s suggestion that woman not speak publicly was because he was concerned about people who were used to a religion that was based on sexual practices being derailed if a woman taught.This suggests that Paul’s statements are culturally based.Dr. McGee, while very traditional, even states that he supported a woman preacher in a town revival because she was preaching the gospel even though it wasn’t his preference.According to his commentary verses 13-15 are suggesting that because Eve sinned first, every time a child is born she brings another sinner in the world.However, the she shall be saved through childbirth is referring to Mary giving birth to Christ.

    There’s so much about the ancient pagan context into which Paul was ministering that isn’t obvious from a “plain sense” reading of his epistles.

    I like to look for inconsistencies in application as clues to the motives of people who insist on their interpretation/application of controversial texts. Two complementarian inconsistencies that seem very obvious to me are

    a) inconsistency in the frequency and force of contemporary echoes of Paul’s commands to husbands and wives. In Paul’s writings, the husband is given the more difficult and demanding call — to imitate Christ’s actual historical self-giving love toward the Church. But complementarians don’t seem to get upset about widespread husbandly failure to live this way. They are preoccupied with wifely failure to imitate an eschatological ideal of the Church’s perfect submission to Christ.

    b) It appears to me that complementarians are not particularly concerned to compel women to conform to Paul’s head-covering command in 1 Cor 11. This is odd because Paul adduces two arguments in support of this command, one “from nature” and a mysterious theological argument about “the angels” (that may be rooted in a concern not to risk a repeat the events of events of Genesis 6:1-2, also recounted in the “Book of Watchers” of 1 Enoch, a story that was widespread at the time, sort of a 1st century analogy of our contemporary “Left Behind” books)

    Paul uses stronger language in his discussion of head coverings (while also permitting covered women to speak, as in “pray”) than he does in 1 Timothy 2. But the former text just isn’t that important (it seems) to complementarians.

    These inconsistencies suggest that the complementarian teaching is not primarily about “conforming church practice to the Word of God” but rather about maintaining power relations
    in favor of the people who are already in charge.

    (As an aside — the ancient contextual logic of Paul’s “from nature” argument in 1 Cor 11 is explored here

    http://www.nakedbiblepodcast.com/naked-bible-86-the-head-covering-of-1-corinthians-1113-15/

    which shows why this command made perfect sense in Paul’s context but is not relevant to ours. This suggests to me that we shouldn’t assume that we understand why Paul made his other gender-specific commands and should not implement unless we can establish that the reasons he made them are relevant in our context.)

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  126. NJ: Trying to walk the line between making oneself attractive to the opposite sex in order to get that M.R.S. degree, but not causing them to lust after you, must be exhausting.

    Post of the week.

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  127. Augustine: Not their typical snarky style…more careful, but still feels cunning, nonetheless.

    Yes, more careful. But still quite shallow thinkers whose depth doesn’t even completely wet your toes.

    Also, they always want to have it both ways: sometimes people can’t be patriarchal enough, sometimes complementarianism is definitely not the same as patriarchy.

    I want churches that disciple their members both out of patriarchy and out of interchangability.

    Have they talked avbout this with their friend Russell Moore who does not like the term “complementarianism” because he thinks “patriarchy” is a better match for the concept represented by this term?

    As a European who has no beef in the infighting of SBC subsects, I could not care less who wins in this fight. That being said, I also get the feeling that by removing Patterson the NeoCals are using the problem of misogyny (of which they are just as guilty as the tradistionalists, albeit without the public leering of PP) to get rid of the tradidtionalist influence together with PP – the coup de grâce in their takeover of the SBC.

    In the long run, this is just another skirmish in a battle that has become completely irrelevant. This is just like the competition to become the biggest manufacturer of iron horse shoes or of starched shirt collars in 1930.

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  128. Samuel Conner: This suggests to me that we shouldn’t assume that we understand why Paul made his other gender-specific commands and should not implement unless we can establish that the reasons he made them are relevant in our context.

    Wade Burleson posted a very comprehensive explanation about some of Paul’s statements that were the result of current cultural practices. The title is “Artemis and the End of Us: Evangelical Errors Regarding Women.” Here:

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/02/artemus-and-end-of-us-evangelical.html

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  129. Deb:
    Augustine,

    Thanks for letting us know about that 9Marks post. BTW, it was written by Jonathan Leeman (no doubt at Mark Dever’s request).

    Leeman makes more sense than Dever. I haven’t heard any crazy statements on this topic from Dever, so if anyone knows of one I would love to hear it.

    (I read this Leeman article before and I didn’t like it for various reasons, but that’s true of most of his articles. It’s clear he isn’t’ willing or interested in calling people out for foolishness that hurts women.)

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  130. Lydia: It looks to me like a coordinated effort to pin all SBC misogyny on Patterson so they could reimage the SBC as more female friendly and scape goat Patterson for the recent past, too. Get rid of him as fixing the real problem and ignore everyone else like Mohler, Moore, etc. (The list is long)

    Mass deception and manipulation. It often works, sadly. No good guys here, imo. Just clever ones.

    That’s what I’m seeing, as well. There’s a master plan behind this and it wasn’t written by a holy man.

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  131. https://www.9marks.org/interview/ep54/

    OK so I listened to this podcast again this morning and Dever said that when he was grading (women’s) papers in an egalitarian church culture he felt “intellectually slimy” and “bad before the Lord.” Something is very wrong when an SBC major player and influence for church polity thinks and speaks in terms, “intellectually slimy” when grading papers on women and ministry.

    D/Deb… Please check me on that and if that’s actually the case could you please do some deeper reporting around this?

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  132. Lea,

    You really have to listen to the podcast between Dever and Leeman on the same link before they take it down … But do it before your morning breakfast as it may not stay down.

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  133. Augustine: Dever said that when he was grading (women’s) papers in an egalitarian church culture he felt “intellectually slimy” and “bad before the Lord.”

    His description of himself is right on! It fits multiple other New Calvinist elite in SBC ranks! Southern Baptists are out of their spiritual minds to allow this cast of characters to take over their denomination without effective opposition.

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  134. I just read the comments about Allen’s resolution on Voices. I commented, “It would be nice if these committees would start talking to women, and not just talking about us.”

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  135. Samuel Conner: In Paul’s writings, the husband is given the more difficult and demanding call — to imitate Christ’s actual historical self-giving love toward the Church.

    These people who can’t even give up decision making for any reason are not going to give up their lives either.

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  136. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): I just read the comments about Allen’s resolution on Voices. I commented, “It would be nice if these committees would start talking to women, and not just talking about us.”

    Oh but Nancy, the New Calvinists are now thinking that women have dignity, too, and are calling for more women to serve on committees! Not ministry, but committees. Lord knows that Southern Baptists have enough committees for women to serve on! The new reformers want them to become so busy on a committee that they will not sense the call of God on their lives to teach the Word to men and preach the Gospel to ALL people! Yeah, let’s put every Southern Baptist woman on a committee!! What a cunning idea!

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  137. Soooo … Jason Allen suddenly comes up with a brilliant resolution to officially affirm the dignity of women. It seems to me that Jesus did that 2,000 years ago. How many more years will it take Southern Baptists to affirm God’s call on women to do anything but serve on a committee? If the New Calvinists have their way, never.

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  138. Deb,

    I have found the link below to be very useful in comparing changes to the Baptist Faith and Message over the past 93 years. It lays out the 1925, 1963 and 2000 BFMs in a side-by-side comparison. It is from this comparison that I got the information concerning the 15 members appointed by Patterson at the ’99SBC to present any changes at the ’00SBC.
    http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfmcomparison.asp

    …and just to lighten the subject a little bit, I find it quite humorous that the 1925 version allowed for “bread and wine” at the Lord’s Supper (Section XIII), but wording was changed to “bread and the fruit of the vine” in the 1963 version (Section VII). I’ve been in the SB denomination all my life and it would be considered sacrilegious at even the thought of using “real wine” in the Lord’s Supper :).

    Keep up the good work Deb and Dee. My wife and I have been “reading” for quite awhile, but this is the first time to “participate”.

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  139. Augustine: Dever said that when he was grading (women’s) papers in an egalitarian church culture he felt “intellectually slimy” and “bad before the Lord.”

    i.e. The Girl Cooties on the papers were infecting him.

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  140. Max: Soooo … Jason Allen suddenly comes up with a brilliant resolution to officially affirm the dignity of women. It seems to me that Jesus did that 2,000 years ago.

    That was Jesus, Not CALVIN.

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  141. Gus: Also, they always want to have it both ways: sometimes people can’t be patriarchal enough, sometimes complementarianism is definitely not the same as patriarchy.

    “What’s Yours is Mine and What’s Mine is MINE!”

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  142. Leslie,

    Sometimes my church uses “How Firm a Foundation” as an entrance or recessional hymn.
    I keep expecting J Vernon McGee’s voice-over intro to come in after the first verse…

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  143. Deb,

    OK…just looked at the link you had referenced and that was a committee appointed to look at ONE specific article of the the BFM on the “The Family” (Article XVIII added as a 1998 amendment). The next year, SBC’99 was when Patterson selected the committee of 15 to review the WHOLE BFM’63.
    A little interesting is that the ’99 committee did not even accept the exact verbiage of the ’98 committee’s recommendations on “The Family” (one can easily see that in the side-by-side comparison of the 3 BFMs)…again the link is: http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfmcomparison.asp

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  144. GVM,

    My reason for bringing this up in the post was to demonstrate that both Dorothy Patterson and Mary Mohler played significant roles in this initial change to the BF&M. Looks like it was subsequently fine-tuned.

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  145. GVM: I have found the link below to be very useful in comparing changes to the Baptist Faith and Message over the past 93 years.
    http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfmcomparison.asp

    1925 version: “The Gospel Church: Its Scriptural officers are bishops, or elders, and deacons.”

    2000 version: “The Church: Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”

    Note the not-so-subtle changes between the versions. They took the “Gospel” out of the heading for that section and added a sentence to send a message to women that church leadership is a men’s only club. Thus, they were right to take the word Gospel out of the title for that section.

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  146. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    I just read the comments about Allen’s resolution on Voices.I commented, “It would be nice if these committees would start talking to women, and not just talking about us.”

    I find the whole concept extremely arrogant and somewhat medieval. As a grown up, I don’t receive my value or dignity from other individuals who think they can decide the time or place for such. Bizarre.

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  147. Max: How many more years will it take Southern Baptists to affirm God’s call on women to do anything but serve on a committee? If the New Calvinists have their way, never.

    Max, the non-Calvinists are doing no better.

    (my non-sbc Calvinist church actually affirms women in every way. I get that there are SBC politics at play, but my perspective on this is different)

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  148. GVM: I find it quite humorous that the 1925 version allowed for “bread and wine” at the Lord’s Supper (Section XIII), but wording was changed to “bread and the fruit of the vine” in the 1963 version (Section VII).

    LOL. So Baptist.

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  149. drstevej:
    Every committee needs tasty snacks. So ladies, bake something tasty, cover your knees and join the guys.

    Jut remember to be properly winsome — approach on your knees, holding up the offering bowl of manly snacks.

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  150. Lydia: I find the whole concept extremely arrogant and somewhat medieval. As a grown up, I don’t receive my value or dignity from other individuals who think they can decide the time or place for such. Bizarre.

    Yep. Include me 100%, or count me out. Either way, I don’t need them to justify my existence as a human being, as a child of God.

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  151. Lydia: As a grown up, I don’t receive my value or dignity from other individuals who think they can decide the time or place for such. Bizarre.

    Yes. I don’t want to be around men, in general, who feel the need to make some sort of point that I am person. I’ll just stick with the people who don’t need to make it clear because it is already clear, thanks.

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  152. Lea: Max, the non-Calvinists are doing no better.

    However, X-Treme Calvinism does enable (and supercharge) these particular dysfunctions and heresies.

    TWW tends to focus on X-Treme Calvinism as a whistleblowing target; Wondering Eagle is focusing more and more on Christian Culture War/Christian Nation types.

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  153. Headless Unicorn Guy: However, X-Treme Calvinimsm does enable (and supercharge) these particular dysfunctions and heresies.

    I don’t know. The Patterson types seem to do fine on their own. The non-Calvinists fundamentalists as well.

    I think it’s a dodge to blame all this patriarchy on calvin and I will continue to bring it up when people do so, not because I’m offended (even though my presby church is the first one I’ve ever attended that does not limit women in any way), but because I think it misses the heart of it.

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  154. Lea: Max: How many more years will it take Southern Baptists to affirm God’s call on women to do anything but serve on a committee? If the New Calvinists have their way, never.

    Max, the non-Calvinists are doing no better.

    Agreed. I’ve been a Southern Baptist for 60+ years. Misogynist non-Calvinist leaders were rough on women long before the New Calvinists showed up. My point about the New Calvinists is that they are clearly in charge of the denomination now and will most likely be there for a long time to come. A generational shift is occurring, trending toward Calvinism as the Southern Baptist default in belief and practice … the “beauty of complementarity” will rule the day. The subordination of women in the SBC is one of the few things that both SBC non-Calvinist men and Calvinist men share. Unless God intervenes, it will remain that way.

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  155. drstevej: Hipwaders are for baptizing folks and only men do baptisms.

    I know. But if they were real men, they wouldn’t wear hip-waders, especially not in a sissified, indoor, heated baptistery.
    Question: can a person even be saved in baptist world without the presence, prayers, and leadership of a male?
    I’ve never seen it happen.

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  156. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): Well then, I’ll just wear a floor length skirt. That way, my knees will be covered, as so will my ankle holster!

    I think you just solved the whole respect of women issue. Can I fetch the pulpit for you?

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  157. There is a segment of our culture that believes in and practices the subjugation of: women, children, employees, and a wide variety of ‘others’ based on various criteria. This is there regardless of religion or no religion. As long as that is true, then for a religion to turn that into a virtue will be profitable for that religion. They will be able to market the idea that such subjugation is not a sin but rather a virtue. Have we not been there before? Well, we are still there.

    I don’t see comp disappearing all that much. Maybe some more christian groups will decide that it is not a good idea for christians in its present form, but there is always the ‘what next’ fear. If women are no longer seen as less than, what group might be next? Who can I be better than? Please don’t make me spell it out; I would have to get into politics and social theory. IMO this idea of who is better than whom will not go away in this life in this world at this time.

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  158. Deb: Max: The subordination of women in the SBC is one of the few things that both SBC non-Calvinist men and Calvinist men share.

    Absolutely true!

    And my dear wife adds: “And now they are trying to do it to Jesus!”

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  159. Max: Allen’s resolution “On Affirming the Dignity of Women and the Holiness of Ministers” to be voted on at SBC-Dallas:

    http://sbcvoices.com/dr-jason-allens-resolution-on-on-affirming-the-dignity-of-women-and-the-holiness-of-ministers/

    From my 60+ year perspective as a Southern Baptist regarding resolutions, I offer this. They are presented at SBC annual meetings, discussed, voted on, and approved or not. Approved resolutions make the long list of SBC resolutions passed over the years. When those at SBC-Dallas are approved, Southern Baptists will return to churches across America and largely forget about them.

    For example, consider a resolution passed at SBC-Houston in 2013 “On Sexual Abuse Of Children” http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230/on-sexual-abuse-of-children

    From that resolution:

    “RESOLVED, That we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.”

    Al Mohler was present when that resolution was presented and approved. He then went back to Louisville to ignore it, as he continued his promotion of C.J. Mahaney and SGM. Mahaney and his church are now Southern Baptists! Heck, he will probably be at SBC-Dallas!

    If Allen’s resolution is approved, I don’t look for SBC women to be treated any differently or become any more dignified in the eyes of SBC men … except maybe to be approved to serve on a few more committees. MeToo in the pew ain’t caught up with the pulpit yet … if/when it does, we might also reconsider an affirmation of the “Holiness of Ministers” in SBC life.

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  160. Lydia: Men? Women? Both? I would never show up to anything like that where they did not identify themselves. But that’s just me because I hate being easily manipulated.But other people’s mileage will vary.

    Women, and they plan to be open at the rally. The powers that be are very much against a female-led rally without “proper male leadership” or that isn’t promoting the patriarchy line.

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  161. Max: Allen’s resolution “On Affirming the Dignity of Women and the Holiness of Ministers” to be voted on at SBC-Dallas:

    http://sbcvoices.com/dr-jason-allens-resolution-on-on-affirming-the-dignity-of-women-and-the-holiness-of-ministers/

    From my 60+ year perspective as a Southern Baptist, I offer the following about resolutions. They are presented at SBC annual meetings, discussed on the convention floor, voted on by messengers, and approved or not. Approved resolutions are then added to the long list of resolutions approved over the years. SBC messengers then return to their respective churches across America and largely forget about them.

    For example, consider a resolution approved at SBC-Houston in 2013 “On Sexual Abuse Of Children” http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230/on-sexual-abuse-of-children

    From that resolution:

    “RESOLVED, That we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse”

    Al Mohler was present when that resolution was approved. He then returned to Louisville to continue to promote C.J. Mahaney and SGM. Mahaney and his church are now Southern Baptists! Heck, C.J. may be spotted at SBC-Dallas hanging out with his buds Mohler and Dever!

    If Allen’s resolution is approved, I don’t look for things to change much for SBC women. They may be given a little more dignity by asking them to serve on more committees, but I doubt that they will be recognized as more dignified citizens of the Kingdom by SBC men just because a resolution said they should be. MeToo in the pew ain’t caught up with the pulpit yet. If/when it does, then we might reconsider the second half of Allen’s resolution to affirm the “Holiness of Ministers” in SBC ranks.

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  162. FW Rez: Sarah Smith of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram

    Someone might tweet Sarah and ask if she has interviewed anyone from the From Such A Time As This movement. I’m not an active Tweeterer.

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  163. ishy,

    To each his/her own! My “protest” is take our money and leave. For me, some institutions are not worth the effort to save especially with that pesky BFM2000 as all the rage now. I would still never turn out to something that was so anonymous. So what if the “powers that be” don’t want it?

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  164. Max: Perhaps they fear that they will soon have a rebellion of women in New Calvinism shortly. I keep waiting for female believers trapped in “the beauty of complementarity” to rise up and shout “Just a darn minute here!” and then begin to drag their sorry husbands / boyfriends out of this mess.

    More likely, when they realize the equally distorted teaching on divorce, they will leave their sorry husbands to do whatever they want. This, I believe, is what weak, ungodly men in these establishments fear most – actually being held accountable for being decent human beings.

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  165. Lydia: For me, some institutions are not worth the effort to save

    I have left as well, but I think that has to be a very personal decision. If you are going to stay, and call out misogyny where you see it, you may end up getting booted anyway, but you may also say to someone else that this is WRONG and they aren’t the only one who thinks so.

    I don’t think we can judge people who want to try to change the system for the better, whether we think it will be a fruitful effort or not. As long as they are being honest and speaking to the things that are wrong.

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  166. __

    “If you want to get somewhere else, you may have to run at least twice as fast…, perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    As an ever expanding dynamic media force, ‘The Wartburg Watch’ tackles tough issues, aiding the victims of sexual abuse, shaping the 501c3 abuse reform narrative, and ever provoking thoughtful and beneficial dialogue that leads to greater, tangible, and exceedingly visible respect for women in that fateful arena.

    huh?

    “Either the well was very deep, or she fell very slowly, for she had plenty of time as she went down to look about her and to wonder what was going to happen next…” -Lewis Carroll

    What?

    Max may very well be correct. Your efforts and others may be helping to push the SBC into the arms of the New Calvinists. Respectfully, Good Luck With That. Richard Albert Mohler Jr. (1) certainly has been given a bit more tread, don’t you think?

    KRunch!

    Beware the Calvinwock ™, my friends!The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!

    Lord, make us all aware…

    ATB

    Sòpy

    (1) https://albertmohler.com/the-briefing/
    https://albertmohler.com/thinking-in-public/

    WartTube(tm) Bonus: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GXHMTuoK060#fauxfullscreen

    ;~)

    – –

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  167. Lydia: It looks to be more than that. It looks to me like a coordinated effort to pin all SBC misogyny on Patterson so they could reimage the SBC as more female friendly and scape goat Patterson for the recent past, too. Get rid of him as fixing the real problem and ignore everyone else like Mohler, Moore, etc. (The list is long)

    Mass deception and manipulation. It often works, sadly. No good guys here, imo. Just clever ones.

    I would concur. I even imagine a few conversations that went something like : “Look Paige, you may have to take a few blows, but we’ll take care of you. You’ll keep the house, the money and the privileges. You just need to take one for the team. We will make it as pain-free as possible. . . .”

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  168. FW Rez:
    Sarah Smith of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram has been struggling on line with the one real true issue of the SBC Convention in Dallas: What is the correct hashtag? #SBC18, #SBCAM18, and now #SBC2018. It has been a running joke since the SWBTS Trustees’ meeting.

    There were actually people who got really upset about using what they considered the “wrong” hashtag. I was just rolling my eyes at some of them.

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  169. Lea: Did you know Shel Silverstein wrote this along with a bunch of other songs including Boy Named Sue?

    I’m not surprised.
    Shel Silverstein was a regular on the Dr Demento Show; I remember hearing a LOT of his weirder songs — Sarah Cynthia Silvia Stout, The Smoke-Off, an a lot of others I can’t remember right now.

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  170. Max: The subordination of women in the SBC is one of the few things that both SBC non-Calvinist men and Calvinist men share.

    Like the Pope, Luther, and Calvin during the Reformation Wars — the only thing they shared was a Final Solution to the Anabaptist problem.

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  171. Lea,

    Just giving an opinion. Not judging anyone—although that would be impossible with anonymity. Often people, like me, have to learn some things the hard way. Five years later…….., they get it. Like me. Hee hee.

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  172. truthseeker00,

    I don’t think that happened at all. I think the entire Trad wing was just annihilated by clever well connected Neo Cals. It’s only a matter of time. Those guys are good at what they do. That’s why they control 80% of SBC entities and resources. My comment has nothing to do with good or bad guys. There are no good guys in any of it, IMO. Which is just another reason why I don’t think it’s worth saving. Do Women really think it’s all about women? I don’t think so. It’s about power and egos, in my estimation from being around these crews too long.

    It’s been rather amusing, though, in some ways. Some who had previously positioned themselves as egalitarians are now promoting comp by explaining it’s just never been done right. I am not convinced that terminology can be rehabbed but who knows? I am wondering if the anonymous group that is putting on the rally will affirm the BFM 2000 so they will be listened to? Sigh. Everyone is dancing around the elephant in the room problem of “roles”. Oh yes, we dignify the ladies but, roles! Russell Moore has to find a way to convince some of the guys that everything that he taught them is now wrong?

    Popping popcorn for this.

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  173. ishy: There were actually people who got really upset about using what they considered the “wrong” hashtag. I was just rolling my eyes at some of them.

    Do you know what the “AM” in “SBCAM18” is supposed to represent? Drop the “B” and you have SCAM18.

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  174. FW Rez: Do you know what the “AM” in “SBCAM18” is supposed to represent? Drop the “B” and you have SCAM18.

    That was the have they were defending. And they were hard core New Cals. I think they just didn’t want to mix with the little peons. Probably initiate church discipline on the people using the wrong tag.

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  175. Lydia: Everyone is dancing around the elephant in the room problem of “roles”.

    Roles falls apart utterly when you are dealing with a grown single, divorced, widowed woman. Especially one with no children.

    How you can be in your ‘god given role’ if it’s only about relating to other people?

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  176. Lydia:
    truthseeker00,

    I don’t think that happened at all. I think the entire Trad wing was just annihilated by clever well connected Neo Cals. It’s only a matter of time. Those guys are good at what they do. That’s why they control 80% of SBC entities and resources. My comment has nothing to do with good or bad guys. There are no good guys in any of it, IMO. Which is just another reason why I don’t think it’s worth saving. Do Women really think it’s all about women?I don’t think so.It’s about power and egos, in my estimation from being around these crews too long.

    It’s been rather amusing, though, in some ways.Some who had previously positioned themselves as egalitarians are nowpromoting compby explaining it’s just never been done right.I am not convinced that terminology can be rehabbed but who knows? I am wondering if the anonymous group that is putting on the rally will affirm the BFM 2000 so they will be listened to? Sigh. Everyone is dancing around the elephant in the room problem of “roles”.Oh yes, we dignify the ladies but, roles! Russell Moore has to find a way to convince some of the guys that everything that he taught them is now wrong?

    Popping popcorn for this.

    I really hope women aren’t falling for this group of current people who are coming out in defense of them in the SBC circles. Some of these people will spin anything to they and their own groups advantages so that they can position themselves to get more power. Women, take your OWN power back, and don’t fall for these people…they have such split agendas. Please, I beg. Don’t trust them with your stories, your defense, mental health care or anything else!!! Cindy Treadway (signing my name, time to sign)

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  177. Lea,

    Roles fall apart when one doesn’t look to them to affirm ones dignity and value.. Not sure why so many give them that sort of power? And it has to be given to them.

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  178. Sòpwith:
    __

    “If you want to get somewhere else, you may have to run at least twice as fast…, perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    As an ever expanding dynamic media force, ‘The Wartburg Watch’ tackles tough issues, aiding the victims of sexual abuse, shaping the 501c3 abuse reform narrative, and ever provoking thoughtful and beneficial dialogue that leads to greater, tangible, and exceedingly visible respect for women in that fateful arena.

    huh?

    “Either the well was very deep, or she fell very slowly, for she had plenty of time as she went down to look about her and to wonder what was going to happen next…” -Lewis Carroll

    What?

    Max may very well be correct. Your efforts and others may be helping to push the SBC into the arms of the New Calvinists. Respectfully, Good Luck With That. Richard Albert Mohler Jr.(1) certainly has been given a bit more tread, don’t you think?

    KRunch!

    Beware the Calvinwock ™, my friends!The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!

    Lord, make us all aware…

    ATB

    Sòpy

    (1) https://albertmohler.com/the-briefing/
    https://albertmohler.com/thinking-in-public/

    WartTube(tm) Bonus: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GXHMTuoK060#fauxfullscreen

    ;~)

    – –

    amen…Cindy Treadway

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  179. Ct,

    And you will love this bit. Heath Lambert cancelled the conference that the ACBC scheduled at SWBTS. Why? Because SWBTS is mean to women. Okay. But what is ACBC? Who is Heath Lambert? And what does ACBC do? Lololol. It just gets better and better. Hypocrisy on steroids.

    https://baptist-blogger.com/2018/05/29/fbc-jax-pastor-announces-boycott-of-swbts/

    “The trustee decision to continue enabling and supporting Paige Patterson is now costing the seminary the opportunity to host conferences on campus that deal with the critical issues of ministry to victims of abuse.”

    Oh sure. The SBC Biblical Counseling program has really helped victims of abuse. You can’t make this stuff up!

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  180. Lydia,

    Roles fall apart for many reasons! Obeying someone is not a role, unless that role is slave. Motherhood is a thing, but transitional and doesn’t apply to everyone. ‘keeper of the home’ is a thing everyone does, single men and women included. Or you can hire that ‘role’ out. (as you can some childcare). etc.etc.

    None of this applies to everyone. None at all stages of life. Any roles assigned to women neglect SO much, there is more to life! Yet, they stubbornly repeat it, over and over again. Comically at times. Like zombies saying ‘brains’.

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  181. Lea: I think it’s a dodge to blame all this patriarchy on calvin and I will continue to bring it up when people do so, not because I’m offended (even though my presby church is the first one I’ve ever attended that does not limit women in any way), but because I think it misses the heart of it.

    Wow, what denomination are you a part of? They allow women pastors, elders and teachers? They do not explain how you should submit properly to your husband’s leading, i.e., let him have whatever he wants? That’s a rare Presby church, as far as I can see, and the exact opposite of the one I attended for over a decade. The day an elder admitted they (who?) had discussed whether or not they should introduce a dress code for the ‘ladies’. That was news to a few elders, I can assure you; most of (us) and the few families that had been there long (I believe our family holds the record) are no longer there, thanks be to God.

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  182. Lea,

    I should have been more clear. If one wants to stay in that world and be heard, “roles” are defined FOR them. My guess is that they are going to open up a lot more opportunity in the way of deacons and committees. That should appease the ladies for a while. Lol.

    My point is they decide, then make it “biblical”.

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  183. Does anybody remember this: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/07/31/have-you-been-reported-to-your-church-leaders-weve-got-you-covered/. ???

    Hey Deb, I think maybe it’s time for another humorous break. ……. Maybe when Dee gets back and the SB Convention is over —- if you can squeeze one in. I don’t know about everybody else, but I could use a good laugh. The SBC certainly may be setting itself up for some jokes!

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  184. truthseeker00: all about preserving white male privilege

    Subsequent to Civil Rights, some folks cling to privilege, including “the privilege of being the winsome wife of the privileged husband”.

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  185. Lydia:
    Lea,

    If one wants to stay in that world and be heard, “roles” are definedFOR them. My guess is that they are going to open up a lot more opportunity in the way of deacons and committees. That should appease the ladies for a while. Lol.

    IMHO, as woman raised SBC (and hanging on by a thread), if women ever truly rise to any kind of prominence in the SBC (positions not influenced by gender roles, or any positions with authority over any man/men) we will have to rise from the ashes of the SBC as we know it. I don’t see that happening. Since the CR, male priority has just been ingrained to deep into an entire generation.

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  186. Just my humble opinion but when it comes to roles in the church it is something like this:

    What if God forbade ANYONE from playing the cello in the church. But with time and history and a good bit of scripture twisting the church began to allow men only to play the cello. Then not just any man, but only members of the cello guild. And then women began twisting scriptures and fighting for their right to play the cello in church. Some churches allowed them to do so, some fought to keep only men playing the cello in church.

    And forgotten in the ash heap of time was the fact NO ONE WAS TO PLAY THE CELLO IN CHURCH.

    I see the whole paid pastorate, career track clergy laity divide the same way. I am not an Old Regular Baptist but they may be right eliminating the paid part. And some of my certain-Mennonite-quaker-homechurch friends may get the rest right.

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  187. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar),

    Check out this thread. Especially that last 4-5 comments. Hysterical! They prove you most likely right. Oh the mental gymnastics!

    http://sbcvoices.com/dr-jason-allens-resolution-on-on-affirming-the-dignity-of-women-and-the-holiness-of-ministers/

    Btw, women teaching young men at seminary as a new “approved role” may have more to do with future enrollment numbers. In general, seminary enrollment trajectory isn’t looking good. Women are a market niche.

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  188. My son is 16 now, so I’ve pretty much just stopped talking to him altogether… lest I “influence” him in some terrible unChristian way.

    PS — I’m a niche! I’m a female seminarian.

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  189. Lydia:
    Ct,

    And you will love this bit. Heath Lambert cancelled the conference that the ACBC scheduled at SWBTS. Why? Because SWBTS is mean to women. Okay. But what is ACBC? Who is Heath Lambert? And what does ACBC do? Lololol. It just gets better and better. Hypocrisy on steroids.

    https://baptist-blogger.com/2018/05/29/fbc-jax-pastor-announces-boycott-of-swbts/

    “The trustee decision to continue enabling and supporting Paige Patterson is now costing the seminary the opportunity to host conferences on campus that deal with the critical issues of ministry to victims of abuse.”

    Oh sure. The SBCBiblical Counseling program has really helped victims of abuse. You can’t make this stuff up!

    I’m aware…I attended fbc jax. no …you can’t make up any of it. Don’t forget people…AGENDAS. cindy treadway

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  190. Beth74,

    I meant female students and faculty. I can just see it now, M.Div for Director of Women’s Ministry, or, Director of Children’s ministry. You are an untapped niche. Females are outpacing males in college entrance and grad school.

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  191. Lydia,

    I know. I’ve read it all – twice, plus the quotes!
    It would be hilarious if they weren’t so oh-so-rightously serious!
    This is what is left of the SBC that I used to know …… comparable to food scraps that I put in the compost heap.

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  192. Speaking of Paige Patterson … unless things change, he will have the stage for back-to-back talks at SBC-Dallas to deliver the Evangelism Task Force Report and the Convention Sermon. In the audience, will be those who love him or loathe him, and some who waver between the two. He really needs to bow out, but he may very well show up for his last curtain call and standing ovation.

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  193. Lydia:
    Beth74,

    I meant female students and faculty. I can just see it now, M.Div for Director of Women’s Ministry, or, Director of Children’s ministry. You are an untapped niche. Females are outpacing males in college entrance and grad school.

    Ha! Seems to me that they are carving out a big place for Dorothy Patterson’s legacy (BS & MA in homemaking) to continue, and spread to other seminaries!

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  194. Victorious: Wade Burleson posted a very comprehensive explanation about some of Paul’s statements that were the result of current cultural practices. The title is “Artemis and the End of Us: Evangelical Errors Regarding Women.” Here:

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/02/artemus-and-end-of-us-evangelical.html

    Thanks!

    I just ordered the book that is mentioned in the “sources” comment at that post:

    “What’s with Paul and Women” by Jon Zens. Wade B. wrote the forward and in his “sources” comment at that Istoria post he points to an appendix of the book on the connections between the Artemis cult and 1 Timothy 2 written by Frank Ames.

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  195. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar),

    Ha Nancy, I see you got in your comment 🙂

    Here is one that is along the lines I have been thinking: “We will also hemmorage the best and brightest women to other denominations/ fields of study where they are respected”

    Is there a woman who, after seeing women truly respected and treated as equal, who will rush back to a denomination that thinks her inferior?

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  196. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): if women ever truly rise to any kind of prominence in the SBC (positions not influenced by gender roles, or any positions with authority over any man/men) we will have to rise from the ashes of the SBC as we know it. I don’t see that happening.

    Actually, it’s already happened! It’s called the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship – formed by “moderate” Southern Baptists who withdrew from the SBC during the Conservative Resurgence over various philosophical and theological differences, such as SBC’s prohibition of women serving as pastors. I haven’t followed them in recent years, but I believe they have about 2,000 member churches now … some have ordained women as pastors.

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  197. I got this reply from a comment I made on Facebook about Heath Lambert:
    “Heath Lambert was one of my professors in college (SBC school) and I can tell you he provided the same directions for women as Patterson in my counseling classes. This is on his hands, too.”

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  198. Not only does the Southern Baptist seminary encourage a sexist environment, but they also adhere to the “pray mental health problems” away mentality:

    The Religious Right’s #MeToo Reckoning Is Coming
    https://newrepublic.com/article/148609/religious-rights-metoo-reckoning-coming

    Relevant portion:

    Burbrink, then a student in the school’s biblical counseling program, said she eventually began suffering from severe anxiety, which she attributed to an “emotionally and verbally abusive” romantic relationship and a “toxic” environment at work and in school. But she found little support.

    “I was hearing from them that I was depressed because I didn’t have enough faith in God, and I don’t really think that that’s a very responsible way to handle someone,” she told me.

    Burbrink [who also worked at SWBTS] eventually left SWBTS without completing her degree.

    Asked if she believes the school has adequate resources available for women in abusive relationships, she answered emphatically: “No. No, I do not.”

    (The Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, which sponsors a course at SWBTS, teaches that anxiety and depression have spiritual dimensions and advocates prayer as a treatment for psychiatric disorders like depression.)

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  199. Beth74: Evidently, the Baptists are being forced to own up to the fact that salvation is ensured by actually ACTING like a Christian, not just professing to be one.

    Multiple times, we have in the Gospels of the importance of recognizing the fruit of one’s actions. This stands to James 2 where the evidence of fruit is tied to ones faith, with the absence of such being a problem. Even one of most clear Scripture passages of salvation being by grace through faith in Ephesians 2 still ties works into the equations as far as purpose and evidence (with God preparing the works beforehand, that we should walk in them).

    Additionally, it is by the type of fruit that false prophets (also described as wolves disguised as sheep) are to be identified. Paul writes much about the need of good fruit being evidenced, including as it pertains to pastors (above reproach, etc.). And yet, when people dare to examine the fruit of such leadership, wagon circling proof texts of being divisive, gossiping, unforgiveness, and the like are too often the default rather than getting at the truth.

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  200. Loren R Haas:
    I got this reply from a comment I made on Facebook about Heath Lambert:
    “Heath Lambert was one of my professors in college (SBC school) and I can tell you he provided the same directions for women as Patterson in my counseling classes. This is on his hands, too.”

    This doesn’t surprise me in the least.

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  201. JDV,

    Not only are many SBS leaders producing rotten fruit (and guarding it relentlessly) – they are also deliberately and systematically stunting the growth of many who have the potential to produce good fruit.

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  202. Deb: Loren R Haas:
    I got this reply from a comment I made on Facebook about Heath Lambert:
    “Heath Lambert was one of my professors in college (SBC school) and I can tell you he provided the same directions for women as Patterson in my counseling classes. This is on his hands, too.”

    This doesn’t surprise me in the least.

    “If God put you together you’re not allowed to separate” (Heath Lambert)

    https://cryingoutforjustice.com/2017/12/04/if-god-put-you-together-youre-not-allowed-to-separate-says-dr-heath-lambert-executive-director-of-acbc/

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  203. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): https://swbts.edu/news/releases/statement-southwestern-theological-seminary/

    “… new information … demanded immediate action and could not be deferred to a regular meeting of the Board, based on the details presented, the Executive Committee unanimously resolved to terminate Dr. Paige Patterson, effective immediately, removing all the benefits, rights and privileges provided by the May 22-23 board meeting, including the title of President Emeritus, the invitation to reside at the Baptist Heritage Center as theologian-in-residence and ongoing compensation.” (SWBTS Board of Trustees, May 30, 2018)

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  204. Max: Speaking of Paige Patterson … unless things change, he will have the stage for back-to-back talks at SBC-Dallas to deliver the Evangelism Task Force Report and the Convention Sermon.

    Well, looks like as I was writing those words, the SWBTS Board of Trustees Executive Committee was in the process of terminating Paige Patterson. I doubt that he will be speaking at SBC-Dallas; the messengers there would not allow it by casting a vote to remove him from the program as soon as they gathered in the convention hall. Sad, sad development before a watching world.

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  205. “Deeming the information demanded immediate action and could not be deferred to a regular meeting of the Board, based on the details presented, the Executive Committee unanimously resolved to terminate Dr. Paige Patterson, effective immediately, removing all the benefits, rights and privileges provided by the May 22-23 board meeting, including the title of President Emeritus, the invitation to reside at the Baptist Heritage Center as theologian-in-residence and ongoing compensation.”

    https://swbts.edu/news/releases/statement-southwestern-theological-seminary/

    WOW!

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  206. Yesterday as I was gardening the Lord brought this thought to mind, “I love Paige Patterson. I want him to repent. Pray. he. does.”

    The weight of that felt really serious. So I prayed for him a lot yesterday (which was nighttime/ morning of May 30th American time since I’m overseas). Like the rest of us, I had no idea another vote was eminent.

    “For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:30-31

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  207. Max: Another example of the New Calvinists taking advantage of the sad situation with Paige Patterson and SWBTS.These guys are slick.

    you realize, right, that Mac Brunson just left fbcjax and supported paige patterson and now heath lambert is the new pastor and is coming up with this mohler, anti patterson stuff right? none of this is an accident. (you just had to be there, I don’t know what else to say) there are so many agendas in this little play by play, I don’t even know what to say people. The only agenda in this that i am afraid is actually truthfully missing is the concern for the victims of abuse, rape, violence, and domestic violence. We are all numbers on a chalkboard, pawns in a chess game. Jesus knows whats up, make no mistake about that…anybody who think God is blind right now is stupid. He knows His flock, He knows the hearts of these pastors, and He knows it’s being perceived as not sincere, at least by me. I’m not a happy camper right now; these last four weeks have been trying.

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  208. Long time overdue, but still concerned about his exit leaving the door open for a complete takeover by Calvinists, whose misogyny is as bad or worse, and whose authority hangups are much worse.

    For me, the problem is not ‘who gets to rule’, but that anyone ‘rules’ at all. Note scripture sets forth that one person at a time give a word – not a description that suggests an almighty pastor who regales all weekly with his personal opinions and words of wisdom. So, no, I am not seeking women pastors; I’m looking for the day when the ekklesia looks something like what it was intended to look like.

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  209. Max: Well, looks like as I was writing those words, the SWBTS Board of Trustees Executive Committee was in the process of terminating Paige Patterson.I doubt that he will be speaking at SBC-Dallas; the messengers there would not allow it by casting a vote to remove him from the program as soon as they gathered in the convention hall.Sad, sad development before a watching world.

    The SBC minions and “foot soldiers” have supported, praised, nearly worshiped PP for almost half of a century, and much of the world knows it. People must wonder, “How dirty is the SBC, as a whole? Are they all like him?”
    I wonder, was the SWBTS’s BoT’s actions triggered by rightousness, or by publicity?

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  210. Ct,

    I was raised in SBC churches, baptized in ’76, joined a church as a member in ’78. For the last two years+, I have been dangling by a thread. The events of the next few weeks may push me out of the SBC.
    Ps: My husband is a part-time preacher!

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  211. BTW, praying for PP does not in ANY WAY excuse what he did nor reduce the need to address it. A truly repentant person-broken and humbled- can be used by God’s to heal many grievous wounds.

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  212. emily honey:
    Ct,

    I have the exact same thoughts and concerns as you.
    I’m sick, because I know there’s something terribly wrong. Paige Patterson, Mac Brunson, Eric Johnson, keep these names in mind. God, help. He that hath clean hands and a pure heart? There’s something terribly terribly wrong. (you just had to be here)

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  213. Deb: Dorothy Patterson and Mary Mohler played significant roles in this initial change to the BF&M.

    Yes, the lengthy commentary explaining the language of the 1998 amendment was largely the work of DP:

    https://swbts.edu/sites/default/files/images/content/docs/journal/SWJT_54_2.pdf

    “Dorothy…with committee input and approval, largely penned the commentary provided to the convention participants at the time of the vote” —Paige Patterson, p. 191

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  214. I don’t know if this has come up in any posts in the past. Has anyone noticed how Beta males are treated almost as badly as women by these Alpha, charismatic, narcissistic leaders? My husband is a kind, gentle man. He is very nurturing and has been a good Shepherd to many. He was on the Elder Board of a Church many years ago. They tried to run him off, and eventually succeeded. They said he was the conscience of the Elder Board. Obviously they wanted Alpha, authoritarian makes, and not kind gentle shepherds.

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  215. Bridget: It had to be done.

    And that’s the sad thing: it should have been done before this, but the golden parachute approach was the door they went through. Only after it reached even more of a prairie fire status did today’s event get approved. It’s too bad, because if the Mohlers and Moores of the world were invited to engage their talents elsewhere simply on the basis that the faces of the sbc need to be ones that aren’t powerbrokers but that are accountable going forward and willing to operate with sufficient proactive oversight, the next set of prairie fires might be avoided.

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  216. I’m glad we finally saw some serious action from SWBTS, but I agree that the New Cals will not be a better choice. However, I can’t help but wonder if they will be able to get away with the same tricks in the future now that everyone is watching.

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  217. How the mighty are fallen.

    From my reading of the statement put out after the May 30 it seems apparent that the radical reversal of the May 23 “golden parachute” decisions by the SWBTS trustees was based on a single piece of information related to PP’s tenure as SEBTS president.

    Sometimes a solitary voice can be immensely powerful.

    One wonders what would happen in the SBC if a significant fraction of those who have been mistreated were to speak out in unison. It would be earth-shattering.

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  218. Samuel Conner: It would be earth-shattering.

    More like ‘myth shattering’. These men only think they rule the earth. I hope every one of the controlling, power hungry narcissists that have been manipulating and feeding on the naive sheep are shaking in their boots. Did they think their was no God? Did they think they could strike terror with their false authority forever?

    “Arise, O Lord; O God, lift up thy hand; forget not the afflicted. Why does the wicked renounce God, and say in his heart, ‘Thou wilt not call to account’? . . . Break thou the arm of the wicked and evildoer; seek out his wickedness till thou find none . . . O Lord, thou wilt hear the desire of the meek; thou wilt strengthen their heart, thou wilt incline thy ear to do justice to the fatherless and the oppressed, so that man who is of the earth may strike terror no more.” – from Ps 10

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  219. It was a shattering experience to realize that ‘The Church’, which I had been brainwashed into seeing as ‘The Body of Christ’ building his ‘kingdom’ was merely a man-made institution. An institution in which, all too often, power hungry narcissists run roughshod over the naive, trusting and wounded individuals who come through the door looking for help and safety.

    God will arise to defend the weak and the helpless.

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  220. I was young, but now am old, and as I speak to my younger relatives, inlaws and children’s friends, I am amazed and saddened to hear the heartbreak, confusion and disillusionment so many have concerning ‘The Church’ and their religious upbringing. These are the best and the brightest, the ones we were supposedly sheltering and protecting from the evils of the culture. And they saw it long before we did – the hypocrisy, abuse and lies. What can be more evil than feeding on the trusting children of God under cover of holy garb?

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  221. People can complain about the Baptist Faith and Message, but wasn’t it adopted by the convention as a whole? As in, when the thousands and thousands gather, was it not voted on by all delegates?

    Unless I’m wrong in how it was adopted, that means that if the convention doesn’t want it or didn’t want it, they didn’t have to accept it. So how relevant is it who was on the committee? If the convention didn’t like it, they could have just rejected it.

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  222. Leslie: Has anyone noticed how Beta males are treated almost as badly as women by these Alpha, charismatic, narcissistic leaders? My husband is a kind, gentle man. He is very nurturing and has been a good Shepherd to many.

    I dislike the whole alpha/beta thing, but I get what you’re saying. These type of men don’t respect quiet decency. It’s so unlike them.

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  223. JDV: And that’s the sad thing: it should have been done before this, but the golden parachute approach was the door they went through.

    They were idiots to make the decision they made only a week ago.

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  224. ishy: However, I can’t help but wonder if they will be able to get away with the same tricks in the future now that everyone is watching.

    I think the key is for people to *keep* watching. I’m sure they hope they can throw Patterson out and the heat will die down. People will have to not let it, if they want to see any real change.

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  225. Robert: People can complain about the Baptist Faith and Message, but wasn’t it adopted by the convention as a whole? As in, when the thousands and thousands gather, was it not voted on by all delegates?

    Unless I’m wrong in how it was adopted, that means that if the convention doesn’t want it or didn’t want it, they didn’t have to accept it. So how relevant is it who was on the committee? If the convention didn’t like it, they could have just rejected it.

    Those were the days when Southern Baptists trusted their leaders on committees to do the right thing, so they somewhat blindly adopted BFM2000 without really considering the consequences. They didn’t fully realize that long-standing Baptist doctrines of soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer were being diminished in the new BFM, that women were being subordinated even more than before, that subtle changes would provide wiggle room for Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America, that reformed theology would become the theological default, that the Conservative Resurgence would merge into a Calvinist Resurgence, that Scripture would be interpreted through doctrinal propositions about grace rather than through a Christocentric lens of Grace. Traditional Southern Baptists are waking up to the sad fact that they can’t trust denominational leaders any longer … there are theo-politics at work in the details to what they say and do. Their leaders are compromising Southern Baptist identity to make room for a generational shift in belief and practice.

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  226. Ct: you realize, right, that Mac Brunson just left fbcjax and supported paige patterson and now heath lambert is the new pastor and is coming up with this mohler, anti patterson stuff right?

    Oh yes, I can read between the lines. FBCJax is now another jewel in the New Calvinist crown. Once a bastion of traditional SBC belief and practice under Jerry Vines, it will now trend Calvinistic under Lambert. I’m not sure the pew there really has a clue about this and how significant the loss of their church is to the New Calvinist movement.

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  227. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): “How dirty is the SBC, as a whole? Are they all like him?”

    I’m not a fan of Paige Patterson, but Southern Baptists need to know that the ‘real’ bad boy going to SBC-Dallas is Al Mohler. Patterson’s transgressions have been dealt with and will be forgotten soon. Mohler is getting a pass with his rebellion to Calvinize the SBC, shelter and promote Mahaney, etc. … his sins have not been dealt with … yet.

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  228. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): The events of the next few weeks may push me out of the SBC.
    Ps: My husband is a part-time preacher!

    My son-in-law is (was) an SBC bi-vocational pastor who has been faithful to serve in rural churches while still working a full-time job. He is a graduate of SWBTS. The events of the past few years (Calvinization of the denomination, theo-politics in high places, nasty old men leading the SBC, etc.) caused him to reevaluate his allegiance to the SBC. He recently resigned his pastorate and took his family out of the SBC.

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  229. Lydia:
    ishy,

    They just want you to forget their past and move on. They are changed now. Sigh.

    ChEKA changes to OGPU which changes to NKVD which changes to KGB.
    But the liquidation quotas in GULAG keep being filled without interruption.

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  230. Max: Those were the days when Southern Baptists trusted their leaders on committees to do the right thing, so they somewhat blindly adopted BFM2000 without really considering the consequences. They didn’t fully realize that long-standing Baptist doctrines of soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer were being diminished in the new BFM, that women were being subordinated even more than before, that subtle changes would provide wiggle room for Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America, that reformed theology would become the theological default, that the Conservative Resurgence would merge into a Calvinist Resurgence, that Scripture would be interpreted through doctrinal propositions about grace rather than through a Christocentric lens of Grace. Traditional Southern Baptists are waking up to the sad fact that they can’t trust denominational leaders any longer … there are theo-politics at work in the details to what they say and do. Their leaders are compromising Southern Baptist identity to make room for a generational shift in belief and practice.

    Good analysis. Thanks.

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  231. Max: the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America

    Actually, the largest single protestant denomination in America. The Baptists were by no means the majority of the non-calvinists in the US. I am not trying to disrespect the Baptists. I am trying to be sure that we do not think that Calvin’s ism holds more sway than it actually does.

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  232. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): they brought in bus loads of people to vote their way

    You can be sure that gobs of New Calvinists already have their bus tickets for the SBC-Dallas meeting … to cast their vote for J.D. Greear. After securing the SBC throne, they will then tip a glass of Calvinus Beer to each other before they get back on the bus.

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  233. Max: My son-in-law is (was) an SBC bi-vocational pastor who has been faithful to serve in rural churches while still working a full-time job.He is a graduate of SWBTS.The events of the past few years (Calvinization of the denomination, theo-politics in high places, nasty old men leading the SBC, etc.) caused him to reevaluate his allegiance to the SBC.He recently resigned his pastorate and took his family out of the SBC.

    I know he must have a heavy heart over the decision he was forced to make.
    I hope the people he ministered to understand and have the wisdom to follow suit and vote their church out of the SBC.
    I do so with that 3 churches in my area (near and dear to my heart) would wise up and leave. Our current church is not one of those 3. I think our current church (along with 1 of the 3 that has become more restrictive towards women over the past 10 years) places too much “value” on male-priority to leave the SBC over ***some silly issues about women***.

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  234. truthseeker00: I was young, but now am old

    You sound as old as ole Max! In your search for truth in your Christian journey, truthseeker, you are probably realizing as this old guy has, you can’t find much of it in the organized church.

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  235. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): I know he must have a heavy heart over the decision he was forced to make.

    My son-in-law agonized over his decision to leave his SBC pastorate; months later, he still carries a heavy heart. He looked down the road to the SBC his children would be raised in and just didn’t like what he saw coming. He was continually fighting demon-deacons who were not spiritual men and the growing influence of reformed theology being fed to the pew through LifeWay literature. He’s a good preacher/teacher; God will use him again.

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  236. Max: Oh yes, I can read between the lines.FBCJax is now another jewel in the New Calvinist crown.Once a bastion of traditional SBC belief and practice under Jerry Vines, it will now trend Calvinistic under Lambert.I’m not sure the pew there really has a clue about this and how significant the loss of their church is to the New Calvinist movement.
    they don’t want to know I don’t think. Except trouble like me. I asked Heath Lambert why he and dr. brunson didn’t speak the last service. I’m talking not a word to each other. He said he “begged Dr. Brunson to stay and was so sorry when he left.” I have no idea what parsing of words allowed him to say that, but I found out later that it wasn’t exactly how things went down. At all. So that starts me off with thinking the new pastor blatantly lied to me. I have no idea how it’s thought of, the things they say. They clearly don’t think of them as lies. I was a member at that point, but when I found out what I found out, I revoked membership. For all the bad words about Dr. Brunson that I’ve heard over the years, I didn’t ever believe he was lying about things. That’s why I think he left without a word, and blessed the church on the way out the door. As that’s the only church I had transportation to, I have no idea when I will next go to church, or when I will want to. If you only know what I and my family have been through in the southern baptist church. And he was faithful to the Bible, Dr. Brunson was. They won’t even sell his last two sermons at FBCJAX. What a joke. You can see them on youtube under Trey Brunson or Eddie Towers is his name I think. I gotta tell you, my questions are many, and the answers are few. I asked three times Heath Lambert why they didn’t speak. Three times he gave no answers while all the time claiming to be “transparent”. Ha. My new hate word. I used to hate “it is what it is” Now I DESPISE the word “transparent”. If you have to say it so many times….

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  237. truthseeker00:
    I was young, but now am old, and as I speak to my younger relatives, inlaws and children’s friends, I am amazed and saddened to hear the heartbreak, confusion and disillusionment so many have concerning ‘The Church’ and their religious upbringing. These are the best and the brightest, the ones we were supposedly sheltering and protecting from the evils of the culture. And they saw it long before we did – the hypocrisy, abuse and lies. What can be more evil than feeding on the trusting children of God under cover of holy garb?

    My son and grandchildren have seen right through it all as well.

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  238. Max: Those were the days when Southern Baptists trusted their leaders on committees to do the right thing, so they somewhat blindly adopted BFM2000 without really considering the consequences. They didn’t fully realize that long-standing Baptist doctrines of soul competency and priesthood of ‘the’ believer were being diminished in the new BFM, that women were being subordinated even more than before, that subtle changes would provide wiggle room for Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America, that reformed theology would become the theological default, that the Conservative Resurgence would merge into a Calvinist Resurgence, that Scripture would be interpreted through doctrinal propositions about grace rather than through a Christocentric lens of Grace. Traditional Southern Baptists are waking up to the sad fact that they can’t trust denominational leaders any longer … there are theo-politics at work in the details to what they say and do. Their leaders are compromising Southern Baptist identity to make room for a generational shift in belief and practice.

    (Quote) (Reply)

    Excellent, and on target as always.

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  239. Ct: So that starts me off with thinking the new pastor blatantly lied to me. I have no idea how it’s thought of, the things they say. They clearly don’t think of them as lies.

    It is not beyond a New Calvinist to lie to church members. They do it all the time to pastor search committees, in order to bring reformed theology into traditional SBC church pulpits. It is happening all over the SBC landscape. Stealth and deception have become modus operandi by many in the YRR ranks. They justify such behavior by sincerely believing that they are on a mission for such a time as this to restore the gospel that the SBC has lost. To them Calvinism = Gospel; thus, their passion drives them to do things on the dark side. It is a misplaced passion.

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  240. Ct: My son and grandchildren have seen right through it all as well.

    Much of “discernment” is simply observation … listening and watching carefully. Once you see it, you can’t un-see it. Once it is in your knower, you can’t un-know it! New Calvinists now have FBCJax in their hands; that’s why Mr. Lambert has been evading your questions. That church was once a great lighthouse of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for ALL people.

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  241. I wish Franklin Graham would walk back his recent plea for forgiveness of Paige Patterson (https://www.facebook.com/FranklinGraham/posts/1923129741076531) in light of the information about Ms. Lively, whose rape Patterson covered up and ignored.

    I support Operation Christmas Child and, in general, Franklin Graham. He has been silent so far on Patterson’s firing.

    Stand up for righteousness, Mr. Graham. I believe you can.

    Even better — show up at the “For Such a Time as This” rally and lend your support to stopping abuse in the Southern Baptist Church.

    Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
    James 4:17

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  242. Max: It is not beyond a New Calvinist to lie to church members. They do it all the time to pastor search committees, in order to bring reformed theology into traditional SBC church pulpits. It is happening all over the SBC landscape. Stealth and deception have become modus operandi by many in the YRR ranks. They justify such behavior by sincerely believing that they are on a mission for such a time as this to restore the gospel that the SBC has lost. To them Calvinism = Gospel; thus, their passion drives them to do things on the dark side. It is a misplaced passion.

    That is perhaps what is known as a respectful understatement? The essence of authoritarian dictatorship – for which Calvin wrote the script – is two-facedness, doublespeak and outright deception. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not talking about the pew, which is frequently incredibly naive and trusting until everything falls apart around their unsuspecting heads – but the pulpit. I truly pray that God shows people who have gone through the Calvinist wringer how to warn and help those who don’t know what they are in for.

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  243. truthseeker00: Not bad for an ‘ole guy’

    Old age doesn’t always produce wisdom, but it helps. I know a few things, because I’ve seen and experienced a few things. The Calvinization of the SBC is as plain as the nose on your face.

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  244. Max,

    Except to trusting sheep who honestly cannot even fathom false teachers or wolves in sheep’s clothing in THEIR midst – ’cause they’re the ‘good guys’.

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  245. truthseeker00: I truly pray that God shows people who have gone through the Calvinist wringer how to warn and help those who don’t know what they are in for.

    As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I can attest that there is a blissful ignorance in the pew about SBC life outside of the local church. The wringer sneaks up on them before they know it … and even then, they tolerate a drift in belief and practice as long as you don’t mess with their fellowship times.

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  246. truthseeker00: ’cause they’re the ‘good guys’

    The days are over that Southern Baptists can think of SBC national leaders as good guys. Trust is being betrayed; seems like all the big boys have an agenda now but the Great Commission.

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  247. Max,

    If I was in the SBC, I would loudly march out, as I had to do in my equally oppressive Calvinist church. I’m afraid I could not find a mute on my BS meter, and my weekly attempts to not guffaw out loud at things said from the pulpit were failing. Spouse didn’t want to go – until the kids chimed in that they wanted out too – a surprise to both of us.

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  248. truthseeker00: If I was in the SBC, I would loudly march out

    Well, I’m done; I just haven’t quit yet. I’ve been fighting skirmishes locally and in cyberspace, but will lay that down and throw in the towel if J.D. Greear is elected SBC President … that will signal mission-accomplished for the New Calvinists. The young reformers have no use for old non-Calvinists like me and I don’t want to give SBC any more money. I started feeling that way when Platt recalled 1,000 missionaries from foreign fields. The New Calvinists are not evangelists, no matter how you spin it. My heart is slanted toward reaching the lost with the precious Gospel of Christ, not harvesting the “elect.” Those are two distinctly different missions, even though New Calvinists will try to convince you with their mumbo-jumbo that they are not. I have yet to hear a New Calvinist preach the Gospel … the one for ALL people of every nation, tribe and tongue … that Jesus saves.

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  249. Max,

    How does BFM destroy soul competency and the priesthood of all believers if the attendees to the convention still get to vote on what is adopted?

    Individual churches could also withdraw.

    My point is that there is a lot of complaining, but the majority of SBCers clearly want a more complementarian view of things. This has been going on for 40 plus years.

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  250. Max,

    I have yet to hear a New Calvinist preach the Gospel … the one for ALL people of every nation, tribe and tongue … that Jesus saves.

    Might I suggest you listen more carefully. I’m no Platt fan myself, but Platt, Mohler, Dever, and all the other New Calvinists all regularly preach that anyone from any nations who believes in Jesus will be saved.

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  251. Robert: the majority of SBCers clearly want a more complementarian view of things

    There are 16 million Southern Baptists. The vast majority are non-Calvinist; the vast majority are egalitarian. Only the majority of current SBC leaders (New Calvinists) clearly want a more complementarian denomination … no one is asking the millions in the pew what they think about that. A few thousand messengers is not a good representation of Southern Baptists at large. Most of SBC’s 45,000+ churches no longer send messengers to the annual meeting; they decided there was little point in doing that several years ago since important matters were being decided by a handful of SBC elite.

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  252. Robert: priesthood of all believers

    The long-standing Baptist doctrine is “Priesthood of ‘The’ Believer”. Al Mohler made a sly change to BFM2000 to diminish an individual’s priestly standing before the Lord by replacing “The” with “All”. A big difference if you think about it. I have found that there is a mistrust by New Calvinists in personal Christian experience … they prefer to think of Christianity in terms of doctrinal propositions about grace, rather than a direct experience of Grace, an encounter with the living Christ.

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  253. Max: I have found that there is a mistrust by New Calvinists in personal Christian experience … they prefer to think of Christianity in terms of doctrinal propositions about grace, rather than a direct experience of Grace, an encounter with the living Christ.

    Once again, you are too kind. I have serious doubts as to whether many of these New Calvinists have ever had a serious encounter with the living Christ. For most, it is truly all about having the right doctrine. Walked among them for over a decade, and it finally came to me (after God opened my eyes the hard way) that I was becoming as cold and dead as these doctrine pushers. I decided to go home to God, and am rejoicing to have had restored to me the joy of my salvation.

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  254. truthseeker00: I have serious doubts as to whether many of these New Calvinists have ever had a serious encounter with the living Christ. For most, it is truly all about having the right doctrine.

    Jesus is just a black word on white pages to many of them.

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  255. Max: You can be sure that gobs of New Calvinists already have their bus tickets for the SBC-Dallas meeting … to cast their vote for J.D. Greear.After securing the SBC throne, they will then tip a glass of Calvinus Beer to each other before they get back on the bus.

    The Rajneeshees tried a similar form of Knock-and-Drag to swing elections when they were trying to take over Antelope, Oregon. My informant from Northern California said the Rajneeshees sent buses as far south as Redding (a couple hundred miles/kms) to pick up Northern California homeless and ship them north to Antelope/Rajneeshpuram to register for the elections.

    Then the Rajneeshees crossed the line into BioWar when they contaminated several salad bar buffets with Salmonella culture a couple days before the election to make the other side’s voters too sick to get to the polling places…

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  256. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    Max,

    Plus, they brought in bus loads of people to vote their way, to out number the more moderate voters.

    This is called KNOCK & DRAG, and is an old method to skew an election.
    Usually you knock & drag the Projects and the Homeless.

    “I dibs on the Moonies and the Winos!”
    — early Doonesbury

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  257. Max,

    You are splitting hairs by calling that a “big difference.” A big difference would be the priesthood of some believers. Replacing “all believers” with “the believer” is meaningless, particularly in a denomination that has a congregational polity by and large.

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  258. Max,

    The Calvinist gospel is the biblical gospel—anyone who believes will be saved. Calvinists don’t know who the elect are, so they preach to everyone. By the way, most non-Calvinists also believe in election, it’s just election based on divine foreknowledge. So when the non-Calvinist preaches, he knows that only the elect—those whom God knew would believe—will believe. Since he doesn’t know who those people are, he preaches to everyone as well.

    In both cases, there is a class of people who will not believe that God already knows will not believe.

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  259. Max,

    A few thousand messengers is not a good representation of Southern Baptists at large. Most of SBC’s 45,000+ churches no longer send messengers to the annual meeting; they decided there was little point in doing that several years ago since important matters were being decided by a handful of SBC elite.

    Well if that’s the case, then people who don’t send representatives shouldn’t complain. The conservatives took back the denomination from apostasy by organizing. You want to change things, then organize and send people.

    Very clearly, most in the SBC don’t want to change. The denomination has been trending more conservative and more complementarian for decades.

    It’s actually probably fairer to say that most laypeople don’t really care one way or the other. They would trend conservative and prefer male leadership, probably because of tradition and not because of any theological thinking about it. The point is that not enough people are disturbed by the things you are to want to change it. So you can try to organize things to go your way or you can leave. I’m not sure what whining in a comments thread does for your position positively.

    BTW, I’m not Southern Baptist.

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  260. Robert: The Calvinist gospel is the biblical gospel

    This is the same thing as saying there were no true Christians until less than 500 years ago. You should read some historical church writings other than Augustine’s. Calvinism is not the gospel, not even close. It is no more than a theory that is has never been believed by more than a very thin minority of Christians. Believing in Calvinism does not make one unsaved, but it can lead to having a very bad view of the Trinity and of mankind.

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  261. Robert: The Calvinist gospel is the biblical gospel—anyone who believes will be saved.

    Robert, you and I will not solve this debate on TWW … it’s been raging in Christendom for over 500 years. Ninety percent of Christians reject Calvinism as gospel truth.

    A great gulf separates Calvinist and non-Calvinist on the understanding of “anyone.” Here’s the rub between competing theologies. Calvinists believe that God chooses certain individuals to be saved; non-chosen people cannot and will not be saved. Non-Calvinists, on the other hand, believe that God chooses to save anyone … anyone … who believes in Christ. Anyone who hears the gospel can be saved. Calvinists believe that the “elect” believe in Jesus because they are already saved; Non-Calvinists believe that anyone can be saved when and because they believe in Jesus. These are two completely different gospels – one is good news for ALL people, the other is not.

    Since you consider my input “whining”, I won’t whine to you any more in response to your comments.

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  262. Augustine:
    Mark Dever:A Word of Empathy, Warning, and Counsel for “Narrow” Complementarians
    https://www.9marks.org/article/a-word-of-empathy-warning-and-counsel-for-narrow-complementarians/

    Is it just me, or is this a bunch of double-talk?I can’t even make sense of Dever’s vacillating on this issue.As with many of the male sect in the SBC, it seems he’s trying to distance himself from the worst of the worst in the SBC who marginalize women.Problem is, he’s in the “worst” category and doing a very poor job of distancing of distinguishing himself as any different.Nice try, Dever.Try again later.

    That 9Marks article is a jumbled-up word salad!

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  263. Lydia: I find the whole concept extremely arrogant and somewhat medieval. As a grown up, I don’t receive my value or dignity from other individuals who think they can decide the time or place for such. Bizarre.

    Exactly, Lydia. That resolution piece at SBC Vouces is just a bunch of men sitting around trying to figure out what women do and don’t deserve. And the arrogance of it all is that they have no interest in hearing an actual woman’s perspective on the matter. They live in an echo chamber.

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  264. At the risk of stirring up a gigantic hornet’s nest, I will timidly observe that the preceding discussion/argument about which faction within the visible Church has the correct understanding of “the Gospel” (where “the Gospel” is understood as “how to be saved” [with associated issues of foreknowledge/predestination/monergism-vs-synergism in view on the periphery]) may be making a significant terminological error in using the term “Gospel” in a way that is alien to the New Testament texts.

    In the four Gospels, the term “euangelion” refers to Jesus’ announcement of the imminent arrival of God’s Kingdom, with the associated implications (which would have been obvious to 1st century Jewish hearers of Jesus’ message) of the return of YHWH to Israel, the end of Israel’s long exile, the restoration of the Davidic kingdom and the fulfillment of OT eschatological promises, including the ingathering of Gentiles into an enlarged “people of God”.

    What we today call “the Gospel” is not what the Gospel authors seem to have meant by the term, but something more nearly akin to “practical individual soteriology/personal eschatology”.

    This proposal is well set out in NT Wright’s “Jesus and the Victory of God.”

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  265. Darlene: And the arrogance of it all is that they have no interest in hearing an actual woman’s perspective on the matter. They live in an echo chamber.

    Arrogance is a common descriptor of New Calvinists. Pride is the root of all sin. To put female believers back in bondage, after Christ has set them free, is sin.

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  266. Samuel Conner: At the risk of stirring up a gigantic hornet’s nest,

    No risk of that on an older thread like this. I agree with your thoughts here. I am nearly finshed with Wright’s “The Day the Revolution Began.” Very thought provoking.

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  267. Samuel Conner: At the risk of stirring up a gigantic hornet’s nest, I will timidly observe that the preceding discussion/argument about which faction within the visible Church has the correct understanding of “the Gospel”

    We stir up hornet’s nests and open cans of fishin’ worms on a regular basis here at TWW. You’re in good company.

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  268. Robert: Very clearly, most in the SBC don’t want to change. The denomination has been trending more conservative and more complementarian for decades.

    By design. What do you think happens when you kick out the ‘liberals’, anychurch that calls a woman as pastor, etc. the ones who left often go the cbf

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  269. Muff Potter: We stir up hornet’s nests and open cans of fishin’ worms on a regular basis here at TWW.You’re in good company.

    “I seek out those with Holy Hand Grenades in their pockets and pull the pins.”
    — some long-ago interview on a Christianese talk show

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