Paige Patterson Appears Unrepentant / Does the Male Headship He and Others Profess Contribute to Abuse?

“We are of course hurt, but we did not compromise.”

Paige Patterson

As we discussed in our previous post, the trustees of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SWBTS) deliberated for 13 long hours regarding the fate of Paige Patterson, who has served as seminary president since 2003. They decided to send him packing, but he won’t be going very far. As president emeritus, he and Dorothy will be moving from Pecan Manor to the new digs being built on campus (see photo above).

Patterson’s retirement plans were announced nearly four months ago in an article published by Southern Baptist Texan. The Baptist Heritage Center, a $2.5 million facility designed to house ‘the largest collection of conservative resurgence material’ (we presume in the world), will also serve as Paige and Dorothy Patterson’s residence. According to the article:

‘Patterson plans to live in one of the one-bedroom apartments in the center, along with this wife—after his retirement—until they could no longer take care of themselves.”

In that way it “would give me access to my own library to write,” Patterson said, explaining the trustees “kindly said, ‘Yes.’”

It goes on to state that:

In September 2017, the SWBTS trustee executive committee extended an official invitation for the Pattersons to reside in the Baptist Heritage Center as its first theologians-in-residence.

Although the Baptist Heritage Center is slated to open in fall of 2018, it is hoped that messengers attending the SBC annual gathering next month in nearby Dallas will be able to tour the facility. If that does happen, we hope some of our readers who attend the SBC gathering will let us know how it goes…

After the trustees’ announced their decision regarding Paige Patterson, he appeared to dig in his heels. Baptist News Global shared Patterson’s remarks. (see below)

“We are of course hurt, but we did not compromise,” Paige and Dorothy Patterson said in an email hours after Tuesday’s marathon trustee meeting precipitated by a backlash to his previous comments about women. “What matters in all this is not the lives of a couple of old soldiers, but your bright futures for Christ.”

Patterson has previously apologized for once counseling a woman to stay with an abusive husband and sexual innuendo in a sermon illustration involving a minor, but he also contends there is a campaign against him.

As Dee revealed in a previous post, while the SWBTS trustees were behind closed doors determining Patterson’s fate, news broke about a former student who claimed that back in 2003, when Patterson was president of the seminary she attended (SEBTS), he urged her not to report to the authorities that she had been raped.

On the heels of this breaking news, another woman reported via Facebook that she had experienced something similar. Baptist News Global shared the following information regarding that woman’s claim:

Megan Cox, a pastoral counselor in Denver who runs a non-profit to help women fleeing an abusive spouse, said she first went to campus officials to report what she knew about abuse happening to a friend.

Cox said a seminary official told her “this happens all the time” and said casually “there is nothing we can do,” even though the man was studying to be a pastor.

Cox said she called the same counselor many times about her own non-physical abuse by her then-husband, a seminary student, and he advised her to be more active in bed. Eventually, when “things began to get physical” she packed up their four kids and left.

“Paige Patterson’s teaching and support of the good ole’ boy system has hurt so many more women than I could count,” she said, encouraging the Post reporter to “keep on digging” into the story.

As a Facebook friend of Megan Cox, I (Deb) read her FB post shortly after she posted it. And providentially, Dee and I had the privilege of meeting Megan several years ago and hearing her story first hand. We can testify that Megan is a courageous woman with the gift of ministering to women who have been hurt by their significant others.

As Megan explained, she believes Patterson’s teaching has contributed to the abuse of women – physically, emotionally and/or spiritually. When men have pounded into their brains that they are to be the AUTHORITY in the home, some take said authority to an extreme. Yes, leaders like Patterson will tell husbands that they are to model Christ, but for certain men that edict falls on deaf ears. All they hear is that being ‘in charge is their God-given authority.

Lest you think this is only a problem at seminaries where Paige Patterson has led, let’s take a look at a couple of men who have been affiliated with the SBC’s flagship institution – Southern Seminary.

Russell Moore who for years was Al Mohler’s right-hand man, has made public pronouncements that he prefers the term “patriarchy” over “complementarianism”. In a 2006 publication entitled “After Patriarchy, What? Why Evangelicals are winning the Gender Debate”,  Moore wrote:

Authentic Christian patriarchy also has immediate implications for the welfare of the family. There is a growing trend among the weaker segment of complementarians to seek to indict complementarianism for not writing more on the issue of spousal abuse. On the one hand, the charge is a red herring, since complementarian evangelicals speak to the issue all the time. On the other hand, the charge itself reveals a tacit acceptance of a fallacious egal- itarian charge: that male headship leads to abuse.

Moore goes on to contend:

Ironically, a more patriarchal complementarianism will resonate among a generation seeking stability in a family-fractured Western culture in ways that soft-bellied big-tent complementarianism never can. And it also will address the needs of hurting women and children far better, because it is rooted in the primary biblical means for protecting women and children: call- ing men to responsibility. Soft patriarchy is, in one sense, a reaffirmation of what gender traditionalists have known all along—male headship is not about male privilege. Patriarchy is good for women, good for children, and good for families.

What is absolutely stunning is that Russell Moore holds up C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries as models of male headship that are to be emulated. He states:

It is noteworthy that the vitality in evangelical complementarianism right now is among those who are willing to speak directly to the implications and meaning of male headship—and who are not embarrassed to use terms such as “male headship.” This vitality is found in specific ecclesial communities— among sectors within the Southern Baptist Convention, the Presbyterian Church in America, the charismatic Calvinists of C. J. Mahaney’s “sovereign grace” network…

Given what we now know about Sovereign Grace Ministries Churches, Moore’s words are frightening!

To hear Russell Moore discuss his views, check out this 9Marks interview from 2007. Highlights from the interview are:

  • Moore says egalitarian couples are really in ‘same-sex marriages’ (4:10)
  • Hierarchy is a good thing to Moore (37:22)
  • Moore doesn’t like the term ‘complementarianism’ (38:40)
  • He purports that we have headship/patriarchy – a headship that reflects the headship/fatherhood of God (38.54)

Again, Dever, Moore, and gang stress headship and don’t spend much time explaining how a husband is to model Jesus Christ. They are tickling the ears of men with terms like ‘patriarchy’ and ‘headship’.

Then there’s Bruce Ware, a professor at Southern Seminary, who is enamored with male headship. A decade ago Ware spoke on “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” at a Denton Bible Church conference. You can listen to his hour-long message by clicking here.

In response, Bob Allen wrote an article entitled: Southern Baptist Leader Links Spouse Abuse to Wives’ Refusal to Submit to their Husbands

Kate Johnson, who at the time was president of the Christian Coalition Against Domestic Abuse, took issue with Ware’s talk. You can read here remarks here.

We have known about Bruce Ware for nearly a decade, and we are VERY concerned about what he’s teaching regarding gender roles at SBTS. We discussed his remarks not long after we launched our blog.

Denny Burk claims Ware’s words are being misunderstood, but you be the judge.

It’s been nearly 40 years since the Conservative Resurgence began, and things certainly appear to be heading in the wrong direction for the Southern Baptist Convention. Church membership is in decline, baptisms are falling, and women who have been abused are coming out of the woodwork, not to mention pastors and seminary professors who are demonstrating their fallenness to a watching world. There is much confusion about male headship, and when one looks at what leaders like Paige Patterson and his ilk have said and done, is it any wonder that there are serious problems among their followers?


Comments

Paige Patterson Appears Unrepentant / Does the Male Headship He and Others Profess Contribute to Abuse? — 229 Comments

  1. Megan was my roommate and one of my dearest friends in college.

    I can attest to her integrity and her devotion to Christ. She prayed hard for me, as we loved each other dearly and yet did not share the same faith (I was an agnostic at the time.)

    She is the real deal. Her words are not to be taken lightly, because she, like Rachael Denhollander, found herself fighting a system that she had profoundly believed in and invested herself into.

    She beat the odds in her own life, and has now devoted herself to restoring those injured by the same abuse and hypocrisy that she overcame.

    To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
    Rev. 3:21

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  2. Stating that keeping women in bondage is good for them dirsn’t make it so, Mr Moore. I believe Jesus came to free us from bondage, not to put us into it.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  3. Forrest,

    Well put. A quote featured in the post that jumped out at me quite possibly also jumped out at you:

    …male headship is not about male privilege

    Privilege is exactly what “headship” is about, and it is exactly what “headship” has always been about. As an infamous propagandist in Europe in the 1930’s notoriously observed, the most effective lie is the lie so big that nobody can believe anybody would lie that much.

    We must never shrink from confronting the lie that patriarchy is meant to be good for women, children, or anybody other than patriarchs. Patriarchy is about power. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not women. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not the family. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not “God’s word”.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  4. Meanwhile, former WIllow Creek elder Betty Schmidt calls foul on the current elders for another failure to investigate the sins of Bill Hybel. This is a long article with several interesting things in it.
    https://churchleaders.com/news/326149-willow-creak-church-betty-schmidt-there-can-be-no-reconciliation-without-repentance.html
    She reports that in 2006 Hybels and the elders had a fractured relationship due to Hybels abuse of staff members and others who had taken complaints to the elders.
    “After a day and a half of intense, guided discussion, the final session was attended by only five of the participants: the three mediators, Bill Hybels, and one elder, who, as it turned out, became the scapegoat for the fracture that had developed between Bill and the elders. I vehemently protested this meeting and demanded that all of us, but minimally I, be allowed in, but was denied entry…by David Schlachter. The result was tragic, and Bill was never called out for sin of abusive powering up on certain staff members and others who had raised complaints about him to the elders.”
    Schmidt strongly criticizes the mediator used then who has now been retained as an “impartial” mediator for the current charges against Hybels.
    Vonda Dyer is also quoted.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  5. What convinces me that (for the great majority of advocates — there are probably some good-hearted people in this crowd) complementarianism/patriarchy is mostly about power relations is that:

    the people who are assigned more authority tend to be held to a lower standard of compliance than the people who are assigned less authority.

    Given that Christ is sinless and the churches fallen, it ought to be the other way round. But one rarely if ever hears of husbands disciplined for the representational blasphemy of their failure to love their wives as Christ loves the church.

    I see the same pattern in the teaching (which tends to occur in the same groups) about unquestioning lay obedience to the authority of pastors and elders.

    In the long run, I think that these teaching patterns will prove self-defeating.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  6. Raswhiting,

    Betty Schmidt’s own post on her website: https://veritasbetold.wixsite.com/website/blog/updated-statement-from-betty-schmidt

    One commenter, lauriwarren.lcsw, offers a good model for repentant abusers to use in a letter to a victim:

    [Begin Quote]
    I require my clients to complete this assignment as part of their treatment. I would never attempt a reconciliation process until I was sure that the victims would not be further harmed by the process. That is absolutely irresponsible.Good for you for refusing to be a part of that.The focus should be completely on the victims and their healing.

    Writing Clarification Letters

    Clarification means making things clear. In this letter you will make clear to both yourself and your victim information about your sexual offense and the harm it caused to the victim and to others.

    What do you want to say to this person?
    What do you think you should say?
    What do they need to hear from you?

    You should add specific examples of what happened. To say “I abused her” or “I tricked him” is not specific enough. How did you abuse the victim? How did you trick the victim?

    This letter should be for them and not for you. Don’t ask anything of the victim.

    Include:

    1) An appropriate greeting.
    2) A statement about the victim having control to read or not read the letter.
    3) An acknowledgement that the abuse was your fault and your fault only and that the victim was right to disclose.
    4) Describe your victim. How did you use his/her good qualities (such as trust or innocence) against them?
    5) A detailed version of exactly what your did, including grooming, lies, and cognitive distortions.
    6) How your behavior may have harmed the victim physically, emotionally, spiritually, and how it may continuue to affect them in the future.
    7) A statement about you being in treatment and three things you have learned in treatment.
    A statement why you will continue to lead a life without additional offenses.
    [End of quote.]

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  7. Raswhiting,

    Here is Vonda Dyer’s own response to the new”mediation” [cover-up] effort by Willow Creek:
    https://vondadyer.weebly.com/blog/the-cart-before-the-horse

    She includes this alarming statement about Willow Creek Association and its plans for the next Global Leadership Summit. An employee of WCA slandered her when working to get a church as a GLS site:

    [begin quote]
    That the WCA publicly apologize to me that a WCA employee, while attempting to retain a GLS host site, told leaders of that church that Willow Creek had found email evidence indicating that I was romantically pursuing Bill in Sweden, and said that I was a disgruntled former employee with a vendetta against Bill. The WCA employee had no evidence of these things, and they were not true.
    [end quote]

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  8. I’ll also note that, given the reality of sociopathy and the reality that church affiliation does not seem to awaken either conscience or empathy in people with this personality type (sociopaths as a group might be considered a subset of that portion of humanity that conservative Reformed refer to as “reprobate” — outside the purview of Christ’s atonement and God’s saving intentions), it is criminal to command an abused spouse to return to near proximity to someone who may be this kind of person. (It’s criminal to send an abused spouse back whether the abuser has a sociopathic personality or not, but IMO worse in the case of sociopathy; such people rarely change and there is nothing good, contra PP, to be hoped for from sending the victim back to the abuser).

    Someday we will have reliable tests for sociopathy and sensible single people will demand that their intendeds be tested for this before “tying the knot”. Much, much later, conservative churches will begin using the results of these tests as a screen pastoral candidates, and some time after that conservative seminaries will screen for it in admissions. Maybe it will happen in this century.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  9. Random word pictures I get while reading this at 3:30 AM.

    Pecan Manor = Nut House. (Litteral interpretation but also function as an Omen when they move in 2018)
    Baptist Heritage Center = Curio Exhibit / Miniature Museum. (Actual function. Name is also an omen. Baptist inherit and now own, a collection of junk, artifacts and one elderly couple)
    PP and Dorothy = Museum Artifacts..but very animated..and have probably have every inclination to keep talking..even if some SBC leaders eventually want them to shut up. (Litteral function but also future Omen)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  10. Raswhiting,

    Nancy Beach also weighs in: http://www.nancylbeach.com/blog/2018/5/25/what-caring-for-the-women-would-look-like

    Quote: “The narrative they are putting forward is that this is all about a “dispute” between the Willow leaders and former members that needs to be resolved. Fundamentally, that is not what this is about. It’s about an abusive pastor and church leadership who have not adequately investigated his behavior, have not named it as sin, and have failed to confront and address it, calling for consequences for Bill Hybels.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  11. Patterson wasn’t fired. He was promoted.

    He was given permission by the SBC to control the historical perception of a dastardly plan that is destroying a once effective organization which was devoted to spreading the good news of Christ

    While he does that we will pay the bills with CP dollars.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  12. Abigail: Isn’t it ironic that on the issue of abuse that the “world” has led the way and the church follows, kicking and screaming?

    If you live in North America or western Europe then that “world” is chock full of Christians. Not really ironic that they are apalled.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  13. No surprise church membership is declining & baptisms are down. Authoritarianism is a hard sell. The ranks are probably drawn from those raised in the faith. I don’t see a lot of new recruits signing up, especially women.

    There’s a reason people risked life & limb to get out of places like North Korea or the Soviet union.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  14. Jack: No surprise church membership is declining & baptisms are down. Authoritarianism is a hard sell. The ranks are probably drawn from those raised in the faith. I don’t see a lot of new recruits signing up, especially women.

    Hence Mohler banging the drum for young marriage, as well as the quiverfull influence.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  15. Patterson still sits on the board of trustees at Cedarville University even though a petition is circulating calling for his ouster. PP was a mentor to the current president, Thomas White. TW’s article written about women (and most likely influenced by PP) mysteriously was scrubbed from the internet shortly after he became president. Look at the chapel speaker line up and you will see familiar names (Denny Burk, Al Mohler, Heath Lambert, Paige Patterson, to name a few)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  16. Forrest: Stating that keeping women in bondage is good for them doesn’t make it so,

    Keeping men in Patriarchal Power and their narcissistic self egos is equally bondage.

    Indeed, Jesus died to set us free from others’ egos and from our own egos. Deny self, Jesus said, to be filled with the Holy Spirit and restored to fellowship with God and collaboration (not hierarchy) with our fellow persons and partners. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  17. Anthony: While he does that we will pay the bills with CP dollars.

    Time for “we” to take a hike out of range of the SBC Golden Calf.

    “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  18. drstevej:
    Dang, Nathan beat me to it. But, the testimony of two witnesses makes it so.

    Nope, that just for murder.

    Nevermind.

    Only cuzz I wasn’t feeling well and woke up, so I kinda cheated.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  19. Raswhiting: lauriwarren.lcsw, offers a good model for repentant abusers to use in a letter to a victim:

    Thanks for this comment.

    A similar model should be used for abuser enablers, the abusers’ fan club and those that provide the abuser with the enabling teaching. ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’ Matt. 15.9

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  20. “Patriarchy is good for women, good for children, and good for families.” (Russell Moore)

    Ask women and children how thrilled they are to be trapped in Amish, Mennonite, and certain other patriarchal societies! SBC complementarianism may look a little more civilized, but it is still oppressive … I can see it on the faces of young women at New Calvinist church plants near me. Female believers, Jesus set you free … there are to be no distinctions in race, social class, and gender in God’s Kingdom in the here and now. We are to be one in Christ, exercising the spiritual gifts we have been given for the common good of the Body of Christ and the fulfillment of the Great Commission together.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  21. Deb: Quite an insightful post:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2018/05/more-than-a-pr-problem-paige-patterson-and-the-southern-baptist-convention.html

    Yes, very insightful, from the post: “The conservative takeover of the SBC was largely engineered by Paige Patterson and a judge named Paul Pressler.”

    [This was the classic pairing of the Church Enabling False Teacher Authority with the Community Stealth Predator/Pedophile.]

    “The Southern Baptist Convention as it presently exists was shaped and molded [transformed into a false teaching & predator cult], guided and led by these men [False Teacher & Pedophile/Predator] and by people [Fan Club – now including Stetzer] who admired these men [False Teacher & Predator]. One of those men stands accused of being a long-time sexual predator [Pedophile/Predator], the other has revealed himself as someone who views women as property [False Teacher].

    A rose is a rose.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  22. Beth74: “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Rev. 3:21

    YES! Time to overcome the derailment of the institutional church and do church in the Holy Spirit’s fruit (love, etc.) and gifts (including discernment).

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  23. Theologians in Residence?!

    The Pattersons are not theologians!

    Regarding their tenure at the Baptist Heritage Center, the next SWBTS President (most likely to be a covert New Calvinist appointment by Al Mohler) may have something to say about that:

    “In September 2017, the trustees graciously offered for President Paige Patterson and his wife to reside as the first theologians-in-residence so they can use the library resources to complete writing projects for the benefit of Southwestern Seminary and the SBC. Thereafter, the president of Southwestern Seminary approves who resides in the short-term theologian-in-residence apartment … Patterson accepted the offer with the caveat that the next president invites him and his wife to reside there while working on writing assignments.” https://swbts.edu/news/releases/southwestern-serve-open-house-baptist-history/

    Last fall, Patterson appeared to be having concerns about “the next president” inviting him to stay on. After the dust has settled from the current scandals, Patterson may continue to lead SWBTS from behind the scenes since he will be just a skip and a hop from the president’s office.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  24. Nick Bulbeck: We must never shrink from confronting the lie that patriarchy is meant to be good for women, children, or anybody other than patriarchs. Patriarchy is about power. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not women. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not the family. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not “God’s word”.

    “The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering upon the powerless.”
    — Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, Nineteen Eighty-Four

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
    — Lord Voldemort

    “For the hearts of Men are easily corrupted, and a Ring of POWER has a Will of its own.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  25. Max: Last fall, Patterson appeared to be having concerns about “the next president” inviting him to stay on. After the dust has settled from the current scandals, Patterson may continue to lead SWBTS from behind the scenes since he will be just a skip and a hop from the president’s office.

    Like Putin when he switched off with Medvedev in 2008.

    Or George Wallace switching off Governor of Alabama with his wife to get around term limits.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  26. Max: Theologians in Residence?!

    The Pattersons are not theologians!

    But they have their own Stained Glass Window in the Holy of Holies!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  27. Deb,
    Thanks for all of the links in your post. From this link to an interview:
    “To hear Russell Moore discuss his views, check out this 9Marks interview from 2007.”
    – Moore says that egalitarian marriages are actually same sex marriages! Apparently, he knows nothing of collaboration (with diverse God-given gifts and talents) but equal in the fruit of the Spirit (love, etc.). Clearly his loss in his own primitive system of patriarchy.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  28. Max: “Patriarchy is good for women, good for children, and good for families.” (Russell Moore)

    And Slavery was good for black savages —
    Remember the Jerk with his Kirk up in Idaho and his Southern Slavery As It Was?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  29. ION: Sport

    England are just four wickets away from an innings defeat inside 3 days at Lords against Pakistan who, let us not forget, are (in many cases) fasting during daylight hours during Ramadan.

    Other sport is also happening.

    Meanwhile, in Kiev at 18:45 UTC, Liverpool play Genuine Madrid in the final of the GiveUsYerMoney Cup – arguably the biggest game in club fitba’. While Madrid are undoubtedly favourites, we’re in with a chance. Tomorrow, I’ll either be euphoric or despondent – at least in a fitba’ sense.

    #CantBearToWatch
    #YNWA

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  30. Max: Theologians in Residence?! The Pattersons are not theologians!

    But they are False Teachers in the most robust sense. (They should read with trembling what the Bible – their “inerrant Word of God” – says about False Teachers. Not an enviable position to be in before the Almighty.)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  31. Max: Ask women and children how thrilled they are to be trapped in Amish, Mennonite, and certain other patriarchal societies!

    Aside Fact: Remember that one of the staples of Jesus Junk stores are “Bonnet Books”, AKA Amish Romances AKA “Just like Harlequin, Except CHRISTIAN!” Soft-focus (bonneted) woman on cover and all.

    Of which the best comment I’ve read was:
    “When I pick up a book about the Amish, I want to read about the Amish. NOT some Evangelical’s idea about what the Amish are like.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  32. Samuel Conner:

    … I see the same pattern in the teaching (which tends to occur in the same groups) about unquestioning lay obedience to the authority of pastors and elders.

    In the long run, I think that these teaching patterns will prove self-defeating.

    Agree … I have seen and continue to see what you described in many contexts (church, work). What strikes me as odd is the following:
    – I don’t think I have heard any who occupy the top levels of leadership / authority state to their peers “We need to regularly look at ourselves and ask, Am I leading well, am I shepherding well?” Additionally, these top leaders Have not in my experience extended any opportunities for those under their authority to give feedback. Where is the posture of a serving leading? Where are the leaders who invite feedback and create environments where all are given equal hearing on matters without regard for position or title?
    – Most work evaluations are top-down … If those under authority mess up, they will be held accountable, period. But are those under authority given regular (annual) opportunity to evaluate those who are over them? In my experience NEVER.

    My premise: Too many in our circles are continually trying to sniff out someone who may be slipping in their doctrinal position(s), without ever taking the time to “come alongside” to build a true engaged relationship where the focus is on striving to become like Christ, not further refinement of an already too long doctrinal statement!

    While I’m at it … what is the end goal of the hermeneutical spiral?
    – is it an arrogant posture which states “God, thank you that I am right and have the correct positions on everything?” No … see the Pharisees prayer in Matthew.
    – is it creating pockets, churches, even denominations where everyone must be in exacting agreement on minutiae? No
    – is it creating churches where weak and forced unanimity are an acceptable replacement for a robust and healthy biblical unity? No

    The end of the hermeneutical spiral is to have the Scriptures inform not only our doctrine (meaning we are willing to change doctrine statements whenever we learn more; not write them in marble never to be changed again) but also, and most importantly, inform how we live! This is missing and has led to the current state of affairs with Sovereign Grace, Willow Creek, the SBC and Paige Patterson, etc.

    We need to return to the “one another’s” of scripture and strive for times where we “consider (plan, strategize) how to stimulate (encourage, promote) one another to love and good deeds.” (Heb 10:19-25)

    I know that is the kind of Christians community I desire, but honestly is difficult to find. May these crucial times produce a change of heart throughout people and churches!

    Thanks TWW and others (Wade Burleson) for providing a forum where small voices can speak and hopefully be heard!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  33. Nathan Priddis: Baptist Heritage Center = Curio Exhibit / Miniature Museum. (Actual function. Name is also an omen. Baptist inherit and now own, a collection of junk, artifacts and one elderly couple)

    Except this one won’t show up on Roadside America, Adam the Woo, or Carpetbagger.

    PP and Dorothy = Museum Artifacts..but very animated..and have probably have every inclination to keep talking..even if some SBC leaders eventually want them to shut up. (Litteral function but also future Omen)

    Animated or ANIMATRONIC?

    (Thought Experiment: What would Disney Animatronic figures of these two be like? What would be their script and shtick?)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  34. Samuel Conner: Someday we will have reliable tests for sociopathy and sensible single people will demand that their intendeds be tested for this before “tying the knot”. Much, much later, conservative churches will begin using the results of these tests as a screen pastoral candidates, and some time after that conservative seminaries will screen for it in admissions.

    Screening out or Screening FOR?

    Screening can work both ways, Sam. And there have been companies who Screen FOR Sociopathy when hiring Middle Managers, because Sociopaths Get The Job Done while being Very Supporting to top management.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  35. Nick Bulbeck: We must never shrink from confronting the lie that patriarchy is meant to be good for women, children, or anybody other than patriarchs. Patriarchy is about power. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not women. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not the family. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not “God’s word”.

    And with this lie, False Teachers derail a church community, where in Christ there is to be neither class, nor race, nor gender privilege. Take a hike, run, church people, from false teaching. Shake the dust from your sandals.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  36. Lowlandseer:

    There is such a being as an ex-Christian. I have no role in the cause of Christ and no ground to stand; the real epiphany came when I realised that to whatever extent I am patient, kind, ungrudging, truth-loving and similar, I am DESPITE my ill-fated pursuit of the cause and not because of it. If anything, I am leaving in search of some ground to stand.

    For a’ tha’, I appreciate your comment for its being well-meant.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  37. Samuel Conner: In the long run, I think that these teaching patterns will prove self-defeating

    True. And the False Teacher can abide in his flat amidst the trinkets, comtemplating how False Teachers fare in Eternity. Ouch.

    Praying for the falsely-led to find Truth, believe-it-or-not, in the actual complete Word of God, one-to-one with the Holy Spirit, sans the False Teachings. TWW et al are also helpful.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  38. Avid Reader: Beth74,

    Thank you for sharing. We would love to hear the story of how you came to know Christ.

    I actually converted in high school, but then walked away from the faith in college. Megan never quit believing I would come back. 🙂

    I sort of trickled back…until my husband died in 2007 and left me with two small children to raise on my own.

    I wanted to die myself. He took his own life; I wanted to take mine. I thought maybe my kids would be better off.

    But I just couldn’t seem to turn my back on God. After my husband effectively gave the testimony that God was just not big enough,I couldn’t echo that testimony to my children and my parents and my friends. I knew that He was big enough…and even in my utter despair and self-blame, I knew that God was good.

    I turned to Him in the middle of those terribly alone nights when there was no one else to turn to. I pored over my Bible and poured myself out to the Lord, over and over again.

    I kept going, kept functioning…sometimes (often) barely.

    But I began to see things in Scripture that I had never learned by just sitting under a pastor at church. I began to understand the Scripture for myself. I began to listen to the Holy Spirit…He was real, and He was showing me things I never knew. He faithfully revealed truth to me every time I read my Bible.

    I began to trust God with everything. I began to teach others the things I was learning. I wanted everyone to know how much they were valued by God and how they could really make a difference in this world, be used by Him for good, no matter what circumstances they came from.

    Nearly six years ago, I ran into my college sweetheart, who was also a young widow. We still had old feelings…so we married. 🙂

    We are now co-pastors at a little church in town, and he is a Chaplain intern at our hospital. We are finishing our Master’s in Pastoral Ministry together at a Nazarene university.

    My children are in high school and college now, and they are a delight. My daughter is a musician, and my son feels called to ministry! We all love spending time together and enjoying each other.

    Thank you for asking, Avid Reader. I relish the opportunity to share my story of God’s goodness,faithfulness, redemption, and restoration whenever possible.

    In the words of my very favorite gospel band, the Isaacs:

    “He ain’t never done me nothin’ but good.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  39. Headless Unicorn Guy: Screening out or Screening FOR?

    Screening can work both ways, Sam. And there have been companies who Screen FOR Sociopathy when hiring Middle Managers, because Sociopaths Get The Job Done while being Very Supporting to top management.

    It’s a good point. I have read that some law enforcement agencies screen out people who are squeamish about applying force to others.

    Obviously, I meant “screen for it” in order to exclude “in admissions.” But who knows; if the churches become fixated on hierarchy as indispensible to the fulfillment of whatever it is that they conceive their mission to be, they may need enforcers more than pastors.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  40. Beth74: But I began to see things in Scripture that I had never learned by just sitting under a pastor at church. I began to understand the Scripture for myself. I began to listen to the Holy Spirit…He was real, and He was showing me things I never knew. He faithfully revealed truth to me every time I read my Bible.

    Beautiful! This is exactly what I am praying for those misled by False Teachers. Thanks for sharing. Your story if full of hope and redemption – exactly what we need in these times.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  41. jyjames: Beth74: “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” Rev. 3:21

    YES! Time to overcome the derailment of the institutional church and do church in the Holy Spirit’s fruit (love, etc.) and gifts (including discernment).

    AMEN.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  42. MERCY OF GOD!

    I just looked at the Patterson window closely for the first time. The only thought I had was…not good…I’ll take my life any day.

    My only prior thoughts on the windows, were that I would never memorialize myself, or fam/ friends, in glass. It would be an actual portrayal of “ministers of light.”

    I’ll post my thoughts later when I have more time. For now, the image is one of different fates for the couple.

    Does anyone see anything striking in the window?
    (Window with Dorothy seated)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  43. This whole situation makes me just less and less enthused about attending church services, and I’m not even a Baptist. These power-crazed old boys can’t really believe what they’re saying, can they?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  44. Does the Male Headship He and Others Profess Contribute to Abuse?

    beginning of rant:

    I’m going to answer this with an unqualified YES. Because this headship is all part and parcel of patriarchy, or the exclusive rule of men. And when men rule and make the rules, those who are not men suffer and are treated as property. It’s OK to hit your wife, because she’s property. It’s OK to keep your daughter locked up at home (stay at home adult daughter) because she’s your property. Sexual abuse of kids in your church? Well, they’re not fully human because they aren’t adult males. And if you have a perverse view of sin, repentance and forgiveness, you can use your patriarchal authority to force victims to apologize to their (usually adult male) abusers in the guise of “forgiveness.”

    I don’t recall who said this, but I’d just point out that the rule of men over women, which groups like CBMW and people like Denny Burk and the rest of the comp/patriarchy crowd favor, is not what God intended. It’s part of the fallen condition. It’s not what we should be striving for. God did not intend for men to be over women, it’s what happens when we don’t look to God but instead try to organize power and authority for ourselves.

    /end of rant sorry not sorry.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  45. Beth74: In the words of my very favorite gospel band, the Isaacs:
    “He ain’t never done me nothin’ but good.”

    Polycarp is recorded as saying something similar on the day of his martyrdom, “Eighty and six years I have served Him, and He has done me no wrong”, (copied from wiki)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  46. majj27:
    This whole situation makes me just less and less enthused about attending church services, and I’m not even a Baptist. These power-crazed old boys can’t really believe what they’re saying, can they?

    I think that it is really easy to deceive oneself into believing what one wants to be true. Scripture can function as a tool to justify the position one prefers rather than a standard by which to evaluate one’s heart. So PP might sincerely believe it is better for an abused woman to go back to her abuser than to flee for personal safety.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  47. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    A test that I think about a lot in my reflection on the meaning of “leadership” in the churches is 1 Jn 3:16

    (NIV) This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.

    I think this is an “acid test” for would-be leaders of Christ’s flocks — are they determined to image Jesus in the quality of their relationships and the extent of their self-giving for the good of those in their care.

    In the old days, I think that there were many church leaders like this. There may still be, more likely in smaller and more relationally close congregations where it is actually possible for a shepherd to know the members of the flock by name.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  48. Nick Bulbeck: There is such a being as an ex-Christian. I have no role in the cause of Christ and no ground to stand; the real epiphany came when I realised that to whatever extent I am patient, kind, ungrudging, truth-loving and similar, I am DESPITE my ill-fated pursuit of the cause and not because of it. If anything, I am leaving in search of some ground to stand.

    I’m with Nick on this. I was most definitely a Christian. Felt the power the whole nine yards.
    But after leaving the faith, I realized I was the same Jack.
    There is good and evil in this world. How it all works, I’m comfortable with not knowing but Christianity does not have a lock on the answer.
    The problem is everyone assumes that you have to be ‘broken’ or ‘damaged’ when you walk away.
    In the context of this post, this is exactly how authoritarian churches work. The problem is always you. Patriarchy is force multiplier towards women. They are crushed into believing that they are not only to blame for themselves but their husband as well.
    That’s a deep hole. I respect anyone who can get out of it.
    “The world” nay the entire universe is full of wonder. I can’t subscribe to a belief that rejoices in its eventual destruction.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  49. I think the ultimate aim of men who promote patriarchy is to be God. To usurp God’s authority over others. To claim for themselves the acclaim and glory that belongs only to God.

    The level of pride and greed shown by these men openly and plainly means that they should be expelled from all levels of ministry.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  50. “Baptist Heritage Center, a $2.5 million facility designed to house ‘the largest collection of conservative resurgence material’”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    2.5 million dollars for what, now?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  51. “male headship” is the stupidest-sounding term. made all the stupid-er by the degree to which it is dignified.

    gender, male, ‘head’, all wrapped in 1 concept… they might as well have said peni$-ship.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  52. “The Baptist Heritage Center, a $2.5 million facility”

    “Ten gracious donors funded the vision for this center. A fundraising campaign was not required, and the donors supplied the full construction costs as well as an endowment for its maintenance and operations” https://swbts.edu/news/releases/southwestern-serve-open-house-baptist-history/

    Talk about leverage! I’m sure the “gracious donors” are PP buds. It’s going to be tough kicking him out and expect these donors to fund other SWBTS projects.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  53. Jack,

    Nick Bulbeck: “There is such a being as an ex-Christian. I have no role in the cause of Christ and no ground to stand; the real epiphany came when I realised that to whatever extent I am patient, kind, ungrudging, truth-loving and similar, I am DESPITE my ill-fated pursuit of the cause and not because of it. If anything, I am leaving in search of some ground to stand”

    Jack: “I’m with Nick on this. I was most definitely a Christian. Felt the power the whole nine yards. But after leaving the faith, I realized I was the same Jack.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    Nick, Jack, me… i think we have a problem with the christian party platform. not with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit (names given to these entities that all seem to work together)

    we have felt the power because the entities of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are real.

    the label “christian” is like any other label — “democrat”, “republican”, “green party”, “vegetarian”, “vegan”.

    we can jettison the label, the party platform in all its engineering. like the self-liberation of quitting a miserable & abusive place of employment and walking out a free individual.

    God is alive and well, accessible and available, outside the engineered confines of party platforms.

    we can keep it simple. God is as available as air, as the sun in its warmth, in the hope of its rising and the delightful beauty of its setting. and we can just be.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  54. Max,

    “It’s going to be tough kicking him out”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    if i was an SBC member, messenger, whatever it takes, i’d go to the convention, smuggle in posterboard signs (create a fold up/unfold model), and as he took the podium i’d hold them up and shout statements of my conviction. i’d find like-minded companions, and we would do it together.

    polite and passive audiences (with their saccharine sweet smiles) are part of what has enabled the bacterial infection of the SBC boy’s club to ‘flourish’.

    it’s egregious enough.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  55. Jack,

    This is a good discussion. I’m still “in,” but barely. Thinking of the Bible metaphorically has helped me on the days that I don’t have any faith.

    It’s a struggle for me to believe that life has any meaning some days. I’ve realized that faith in the meaning of life is the same as faith in God. It is for me anyway.

    Beth74,

    I am so sorry for your loss. My mom committed suicide 6 years ago. It is such a struggle for me to keep the nihilism at bay some days. Forcing my grief into strict doctrinal boxes was death to me. If there is a God, and most days I believe that there is, He is ok with me relating to him in the only ways I am capable of. I know that it will evolve over time, and I hope it gets better as I go, but I won’t force doctrine onto myself anymore.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  56. …….”I’m a little nervous, because glass breaks and a million things could go wrong,” said Don Young, the artist/owner of Don Young Glass Studio, as workers installed the ninth of more than five dozen stained-glass windows destined to enhance the J.W. MacGorman Chapel….”…

    Let’s remember these are memorials. They are meant to immortalize, and therefore, transcend this present life.

    1. Page and Dorothy are separated by a black border. It’s likely the border is a structural member, making the spouses portrayed in separate panels. I read this as a sepwrstion at death.
    2. The spouses are doing very separate things, with Dorothy seated. While John spoke with one of the Brethren, we are described as seated. Dorothy’s chair appears to represent a throne.
    3. Page is placed next to a dog. In this life, we are to beware the dogs and the concision. This would also represent a location outside the City.

    I never noticed the verses on the panels before.
    https://baptistnews.com/article/paige-patterson-controversy-tests-sbcs-no-criticism-code-says-former-denominational-worker/#.Wwmu_BllA0M

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  57. Deb: I have gotten the same message on occasion, so don’t take it personally.

    I’ll have a wee look at the AVH plugin but, basically, if it’s good enough for you – it’s good enough for me!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  58. So, what is “male headship,” practically speaking? I listened to the whole 9Marx interview, and one of the dudes described headship in these terms: There is a young couple in the church, and the guy is wondering why his wife is always upset. She’s struggling with a work situation, and the guy has told her that he will support her decision, whatever it is. And these guys say he should go home and announce, honey, I’ve got a plan!

    And from their other comments, that plan could include him taking a second job, and/or moving into a double-wide trailer, I guess so the wife can do what all women secretly long to do, which is to stay home by herself and take care of the kids.

    Good gosh, what horrible advice. Maybe the wife is sad that her husband is a workaholic, and gone all the time. Maybe she’s depressed because she’s a better leader than her idiot boss, but she’s stuck in a position that’s a bad fit. Maybe she’s upset because neo-cal patriarchal nutjobs are taking over her church.

    So headship means the man makes the decisions? Always? He’s the boss [and hopefully he’s also loving and humble]? That’s it?

    2007 was a long time ago.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  59. Nathan Priddis: Dorothy’s chair appears to represent a throne.

    I was walking through Scarborough Hall one day and saw a banner listing all the academic chairs. Dorothy’s was top and center in a larger font than all the others. Talk about royal treatment.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  60. I’m curious. PP is now “retired”. There’s an interim prez at SWBTS. Will DP continue to teach there, or is she “retired”, too??? Will the silly women’s program for degrees in “homemaking” continue to be offered???

    (Sheesh. I gotta stop cooking and doing dishes and canning and freezing and sewing and ……..
    I’m just not qualified to do all that stuff – no degree, no references, ……)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  61. elastigirl: “male headship” is the stupidest-sounding term. made all the stupid-er by the degree to which it is dignified.

    “…I gotcher’ headship right here…”
    — Joe Pesci —

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  62. NuttShell,

    750 signatures now exist on that petition: https://www.change.org/p/cedarville-university-board-of-trustees-and-dr-thomas-white-a-call-for-the-removal-of-paige-patterson-from-the-cedarville-university-board-of-trustees

    Even more telling are some of the comments by female alumni, answering the question in this article’s title with a resounding “yes.” As is well known, the current President of Cedarville University is Thomas White, who has been a protege of Patterson’s for decades. White earned his MA and PhD from Southeastern and followed Patterson to Southwestern in 2004/5. Patterson has wielded power on CU’s Board of Trustees and became the architect of the “Conservative Resurgence” (a.k.a., fundamentalist, patriarchal SBC takeover) at CU six years ago. PP basically handpicked White as President.

    When White came in, CU was already conservative doctrinally–very conservative–but certain constituents feared (quite unnecessarily) that “liberals” were somehow gaining power there. It was paranoia incarnated. What resulted was a complete overreaction and overcorrection as Bible faculty were purged. White also created immediate divisiveness by obsessing over complementarianism and gender roles; up till that point, complementarians and egalitarians had loving unity on campus, and egalitarians were actually significantly outnumbered.

    As a result, White’s leadership has resulted in consistent denigration of women and bullying of women faculty. White’s wife has even told female students they cannot work outside the home and be good wives; their marriages won’t last, she has said in chapel, if they hold the jobs their very CU degrees would earn them (such as being a pharmacist). It is a nightmare to teach there for female faculty not only because of such insane commentary but also because of the censorship policy enacted a year ago. Female professors in the liberal arts experience a double whammy, therefore.

    This comment from one female alumna on the petition sums up well the problems CU now has under White’s leadership:

    “I attended as a student and worked as a staff member at CU. I am grateful for the time I spent there. However, the hardest thing about the culture there is the ignorance of certain issues such as rape culture. I was sexually abused as a child and had a hard time coping with some of the expectations placed on women there. A friend of mine was sexually assaulted by another student on campus and felt the university did not have her back when she tried to report it. Another friend was assaulted in her internship and was told there was nothing the university could do to protect her from having it happen again. We HAVE to do better than this. Things need to change and I don’t care if it’s expensive, time-consuming, and offensive to people. I’m tired of the excuses. No more supporting abusers or abuse apologists. #TimesUp Cedarville University.”

    CU Alumni want PP off the Board of Trustees at CU as much as the folks here wanted PP ousted as Southwestern’s President (and now, fired from being President Emeritus and enjoying that house on campus). But many would like to see White go, too, because he’s PP’s horrifying legacy, a nightmare that lives on at Cearville University . . .

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  63. Muff Potter,

    complementarian engine that runs on male headship and its phallus celebrants was turned off a while ago (maybe they’re beginning to realize it).

    i’m enjoying hearing the whirring machinery unwind.

    i hope they feel embarrassed. it’s the appropriate response on their part.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  64. Jack:
    No surprise church membership is declining & baptisms are down. Authoritarianism is a hard sell. The ranks are probably drawn from those raised in the faith.

    It stands to reason, especially as the metrics tick down, for there to be more in-house baptisms in many cases than those new to the faith.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  65. Ricco,

    So sorry for your loss, too. It’s so very painful…

    I found my hope in the Scriptures, not in the doctrines of men or modern teachings.

    As I delved deeper and read more, I found a very different God and Jesus Christ than I had known of before.

    If someone asked me to put into one sentence what I felt God was trying to communicate in His word, I would say: God loves you, so love others, too — and actions speak louder than words.

    Those are a couple of my biggest takeaways from the Bible.

    I gain the most understanding using the King James Bible. It requires one to lean on the Holy Spirit to understand its concepts — and I’ve found He’s a more reliable teacher than any other I’ve had.

    God bless you!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  66. Following our GiveUsYerMoneyCup defeat, I will be sulking in a basement for the next week, and will not be commenting on anything anywhere. In fact I may be in mourning for several months. But I’m sure you’ll manage without me.

    #LiverpoolFan

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  67. Raswhiting:
    Raswhiting,

    Here is Vonda Dyer’s own response to the new”mediation” [cover-up] effort by Willow Creek:
    https://vondadyer.weebly.com/blog/the-cart-before-the-horse

    She includes this alarming statement about Willow Creek Association and its plans for the next Global Leadership Summit.An employee of WCA slandered her when working to get a church as a GLS site:

    [begin quote]
    That the WCA publicly apologize to me that a WCA employee, while attempting to retain a GLS host site, told leaders of that church that Willow Creek had found email evidence indicating that I was romantically pursuing Bill in Sweden, and said that I was a disgruntled former employee with a vendetta against Bill. The WCA employee had no evidence of these things, and they were not true.
    [end quote]

    Troubling. Circling back to the q in the article header, I think manipulators work at finding the water level and play to it. It certainly surfaces again and again in religious life. Want to keep people from asking questions — especially about items that may not reflect on the authority/leadership? Proof text a verse about a divisive person. Want to keep things in house? Add on Matthew 18/ 1 Cor. 6 and insinuate it authorizes church-centered smokie-free dispute settling of all manner of things outside of prying public eyes.

    As we’re seeing in the Willow Creek case, it seems to be the wagon-circling, top-down, accountability and oversight-starved, crisis-managing, business-modeling, centralized way of the world that is a common thread in these matters.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  68. OP title:
    “Paige Patterson Appears Unrepentant / Does the Male Headship He and Others Profess Contribute to Abuse?”

    Oh Deb, no. You’re just asking any disgruntled soft complementarians to wade into this thread to tell us that…

    Real, honest- to- goodness complementarianism “done right” won’t result in domestic abuse, because, they will tell you, they’re a married complementarian man themselves, and they have never, ever abused (emotionally, physically, or otherwise) THEIR wife, so complementarianism “done right” must be true, non-abusive, and godly.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  69. Re:
    “Denny Burk claims Ware’s words are being misunderstood, but you be the judge.”

    Guys who promote sexist views often claim that they were misunderstood, or “taken out of context” when their sexist commentary receives much blow-back.

    Same thing happened last week or so when Jordan Peterson blamed violence by “Incels” on feminism and women: his solution, as stated in the NY Times, I believe it was, was to enact “enforced monogamy” on women, and/or force women to marry and give sex to incels.

    He was, like so many complementarians, making women responsible for the sins of men, and also asking women (or asking governments to force women) to fix those mistakes – mistakes women did not create.

    Naturally, Peterson’s views infuriated a lot of people (other people just laughed and thought he was a nut), so he came out with a blog post later saying he was just misunderstood and taken out of context.

    No, he was not.

    Peterson said what he meant, and he meant what he said the first time, in the NY Times article. He was just sorry his views were being mocked or ruthlessly picked apart afterwards, so he started walking back his views and saying he was “misunderstood.” No, he was understood just fine the first time around.

    But this is pretty standard among religious or non-religious men who say outrageously sexist things, and who get strong criticism for it later – they like to say they were “misunderstood.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  70. Nick Bulbeck: Forrest,
    Well put. A quote featured in the post that jumped out at me quite possibly also jumped out at you:

    (Moore quote): …male headship is not about male privilege // end quote

    Privilege is exactly what “headship” is about, and it is exactly what “headship” has always been about. As an infamous propagandist in Europe in the 1930’s notoriously observed, the most effective lie is the lie so big that nobody can believe anybody would lie that much.
    We must never shrink from confronting the lie that patriarchy is meant to be good for women, children, or anybody other than patriarchs. Patriarchy is about power. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not women. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not the family. Patriarchists love power and privilege, not “God’s word”.

    Thank you, yes.

    Headship is all about privilege, power and control for men.

    There’s a complementarian guy over at Julie Anne’s blog named “KAS” who said the other day, or complained, that egalitarians often say that complementarianism is about power.

    I guess KAS is tired of hearing that charge. Well, you’re hearing it because it is true, even if you peresonally are not abusing your church’s complementarian male authority position to beat your wife up – other comps are in fact using comp teachings to excuse their abuse of their wives.

    I’m incredulous guys like KAS do not see it – Complementarianism, with its stress upon “male authority” and “male headship” is the very definition of power and control. Comp is all about men having power and control of women as its very basis, but KAS (and guys like him) are denying that.

    If that is not the case with comp, then go ahead and say women can be leaders, preachers, and teachers of men, and say that women can have equal decision-making in marriages. If you’re not willing to concede such Complementarian dogma, that is a telling sign that comp is yes, about men want to hold on to power over women.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  71. Tacticians listen up. Just like a well-managed war can invigorate an economic landscape, a well-managed crisis can invigorate organizational alliances.

    These alliances have people that do that, and they pay those people in cash and influence.

    The rot will be excised strategically with a goal to reinforce the existing power dynamics. All the while, power brokers, all sorts of consultants, PR and marketing people, publishers, legal firms, and anyone involved in social media or digital marketing are MAKING BANK. Paid for by contributions and tithes.

    And just like in war, these organizations will have piles and piles of just these kinds of people digging around in the ashes for post-conflict opportunities. Fun times ahead unless you can head it off somehow.

    From your friendly neighborhood PR executive.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  72. My husband and I were up in Ft. Worth today. While driving home we passed the road for the Baptist Seminary. Within sight of this exit was this big billboard. It said “We prosecute sexual assaulters”. I could hardly hold back my laughter. This was right by the Seminary. Maybe the lawyers that put this sign up to promote their business know something.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  73. Read this first-person story written by a female SWBTS ’07 graduate(M.A.Th.). She published today, after a decade of silence. A national journalist is talking to her.

    https://sbctoo.wordpress.com/2018/05/26/why-the-removal-of-paige-patterson-isnt-enough/

    She now has a PhD from Princeton also. She ends her story with these words: “Now is the time to tell the Board of Trustees and the Southern Baptist Convention that their action on May 23 was too little, too late. We await their repentance.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  74. DebWill: She ends her story with these words: “Now is the time to tell the Board of Trustees and the Southern Baptist Convention that their action on May 23 was too little, too late. We await their repentance.”

    You will be waiting a long time, I fear. There is no repentance there. They don’t even get it. Still.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  75. DebWill:
    Read this first-person story written by a female SWBTS ’07 graduate(M.A.Th.). She published today, after a decade of silence. A national journalist is talking to her.

    https://sbctoo.wordpress.com/2018/05/26/why-the-removal-of-paige-patterson-isnt-enough/

    She now has a PhD from Princeton also. She ends her story with these words: “Now is the time to tell the Board of Trustees and the Southern Baptist Convention that their action on May 23 was too little, too late. We await their repentance.”

    As I read this, my takeaway is that it needs to be not just Patterson but Mohler, Moore, and others going into other fields of seri e. This powerbroking system needs to die, and now, or it may well be that people need to starve the denomination financially and decentralize the influence of these well-compensated kingmakers.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  76. Harley: Maybe the lawyers that put this sign up to promote their business know something.

    I’ve always said that when the courts are no longer squeamish about going after the fundagelical boyz club, the gavel’s gonna’ come down hard and heavy.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  77. roebuck: There is no repentance there.

    “We are of course hurt, but we did not compromise.” (Paige Patterson)

    A dose of godly sorrow that worketh repentance is in order here. PP might think about compromising long enough to do that. It would be good not only for his soul, but a whole denomination waiting for him to do the right thing.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  78. Headless Unicorn Guy: Next step: A Side Altar beneath both windows, with pre-measured pinches of incense.

    Normally I am not one to support vandalism, but should I ever read in the paper that someone thread a baseball through that awful Paige Patterson stained glass window and broke it, or spray painted devil’s horns on it, I would have a difficult time mustering up a sense of disapproval.

    If it had been me, I would’ve been too embarrassed to have a stained glass representation of myself in a window like that. I would’ve requested that they please depict Jesus of Nazareth, or design a simple cross… not me.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  79. Daisy: Normally I am not one to support vandalism, but should I ever read in the paper that someone thread a baseball through that awful Paige Patterson stained glass window and broke it, or spray painted devil’s horns on it, I would have a difficult time mustering up a sense of disapproval.

    If it had been me, I would’ve been too embarrassed to have a stained glass representation of myself in a window like that. I would’ve requested that they please depict Jesus of Nazareth, or design a simple cross… not me.

    No kidding, Daisy.

    What unbelievable hubris! But it just goes to show, this is not about Jesus – it’s about powerful men. It’s quite sickening, really. Along with much else going on with these people.

    I really like the idea of spray-painting devil horns on PP… not that I would ever do such a thing, no sir!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  80. Samuel Conner: I think that it is really easy to deceive oneself into believing what one wants to be true. Scripture can function as a tool to justify the position one prefers rather than a standard by which to evaluate one’s heart.

    Well said. Very well said.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  81. Samuel Conner: I think that it is really easy to deceive oneself into believing what one wants to be true. Scripture can function as a tool to justify the position one prefers rather than a standard by which to evaluate one’s heart.

    Well, that’s the problem in a nutshell, isn’t it? Sola Scriptura, and every man/woman their own Pope, eh? People cherry pick like crazy, and can ‘prove’ whatever they want to Biblically ‘prove’. I.e., what they already believe. I.e., millions of different ‘doctrines’ and ‘dogmas’.

    As over against Tradition… and the next thing you know, you have the dread Roman Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church, and what have you, and you place your trust in purported traditions of old.

    Or, you simply throw up your hands and say, I quit. I think this is happening a lot lately.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  82. roebuck: Well, that’s the problem in a nutshell, isn’t it? Sola Scriptura, and every man/woman their own Pope, eh? People cherry pick like crazy, and can ‘prove’ whatever they want to Biblically ‘prove’. I.e., what they already believe. I.e., millions of different ‘doctrines’ and ‘dogmas’.

    As over against Tradition… and the next thing you know, you have the dread Roman Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church, and what have you, and you place your trust in purported traditions of old.

    Or, you simply throw up your hands and say, I quit. I think this is happening a lot lately.

    An alternative might be to respect one’s own conscience (which, yes, does raise the specter of schism) but from a posture of humility that recognizes the possibility (and indeed likelihood) of one’s own error. From that posture one could be more patient with the views of others with whom one disagrees, and even consider the possibility that there might be something to learn from them.

    For those of us who still think (or at least hope) that God is exercising some kind of Lordship over this chaos, 1 Cor 11:19 offers some comfort. And it is looking like the patriarchists are not going over the long haul to win God’s approval. The fruits are too evil.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  83. Samuel Conner: An alternative might be to respect one’s own conscience (which, yes, does raise the specter of schism) but from a posture of humility that recognizes the possibility (and indeed likelihood) of one’s own error.

    That seems to me to be the exact same problem. ‘One’s own conscience’ is going to be different from some other ‘one’s own conscience’. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who is humble? Who should acquiesce? It’s subjective all the way down.

    I grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, and I know from experience that people can become convinced that the most outrageous things are ‘true’. And they feel it in their gut, in their conscience, you name it. They ‘know’ it’s ‘true’, and woe betide anyone who tries to convince them otherwise.

    This, to me, is a huge problem – the human ability and propensity to have some vaguely numinous experience, ‘know’ that it’s ‘true’ (because that’s how it felt), and become fanatical about it. A lot of soi disant Christians are so because of some ‘feeling’ they had in some difficult situation, and they cling to it.

    They’re caught up in a raging river of trouble and emotion, and they grab the first piece of metaphysical flotsam that comes by, and make it to shore. They mistake this for some kind of resolution, when it’s really just an avoidance of what they need to deal with. I’ve seen it time and time again.

    Within the the human nervous system, the darndest things get flagged as ‘true’, and it’s always been so. People commit mass suicide for frackin’ Comet Cults, fer godz sake!

    Discernment seems almost impossible sometimes.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  84. Daisy: Normally I am not one to support vandalism, but should I ever read in the paper that someone thread a baseball through that awful Paige Patterson stained glass window and broke it, or spray painted devil’s horns on it, I would have a difficult time mustering up a sense of disapproval.
    If I lived there, those things would already have rocks through them!

    If it had been me, I would’ve been too embarrassed to have a stained glass representation of myself in a window like that. I would’ve requested that they please depict Jesus of Nazareth, or design a simple cross… not me.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  85. Daisy: so complementarianism “done right” must be true, non-abusive, and godly.

    Kind of like Doug Wilson’s claim that slavery done right was benevolent. Wrong.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  86. jyjames: YES! Time to overcome the derailment of the institutional church and do church in the Holy Spirit’s fruit (love, etc.) and gifts (including discernment).

    It’s sort of exciting when you look at it like that. Just think if the overthrow of the Institutional Church actually ushered in a real awakening of men about who God is and what he desires to do for, in and with us!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  87. roebuck: That seems to me to be the exact same problem. ‘One’s own conscience’ is going to be different from some other ‘one’s own conscience’. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who is humble? Who should acquiesce? It’s subjective all the way down.

    I grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, and I know from experience that people can become convinced that the most outrageous things are ‘true’. And they feel it in their gut, in their conscience, you name it. They ‘know’ it’s ‘true’, and woe betide anyone who tries to convince them otherwise.

    This, to me, is a huge problem – the human ability and propensity to have some vaguely numinous experience, ‘know’ that it’s ‘true’ (because that’s how it felt), and become fanatical about it. A lot of soi disant Christians are so because of some ‘feeling’ they had in some difficult situation, and they cling to it.

    They’re caught up in a raging river of trouble and emotion, and they grab the first piece of metaphysical flotsam that comes by, and make it to shore. They mistake this for some kind of resolution, when it’s really just an avoidance of what they need to deal with. I’ve seen it time and time again.

    Within the the human nervous system, the darndest things get flagged as ‘true’, and it’s always been so. People commit mass suicide for frackin’ Comet Cults, fer godz sake!

    Discernment seems almost impossible sometimes.

    “And they searched the Scriptures to see if these things be true.” As a tradition, evangelicalism/fundamentalism has no ability to search the scriptures with a consistent exegesis and hermeneutic, no ability to break down an argument, has lost contact with the corrective Book of God’s Works (creation) to keep them grounded in reality, and no ability to discuss things with each other, manage conflict and problem solve. The average corporate boardroom (and that’s AVERAGE, not good) is far better at ALL of this than the best church board I’ve ever seen. So, yes, there’s a problem – does in mean that people shouldn’t learn, should leave it all to the experts, so there’s no schism? No, that creates EXACTLY what this post is discussing.

    But pastors and Boards and Christians would have to get over their fear, learn a bunch of tools for dealing with the Bible, literature, history, creation and people and get moving. (Too much to ask? Yeah, thought so.)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  88. GreekEpigraph: So, yes, there’s a problem – does in mean that people shouldn’t learn, should leave it all to the experts, so there’s no schism? No, that creates EXACTLY what this post is discussing.

    Yes, that would be the dilemma I was originally speaking to. But if you leave it to individual people’s interpretation of Scipture, it leads straight to the mess that is ‘evangelical’ Christianity today. I know a lot of Christians that go around from church to church, looking for a good ‘fit’. They never quite seem to find it – some non-negotiable fiddly little bit of doctrine or other. So then they do a house church for a while, until that fizzles, and then they go around from church to church…

    Small ‘c’ church. There are a an awful lot of them, all preaching something subtly different. Very confusing.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  89. FW Rez: I was walking through Scarborough Hall one day and saw a banner listing all the academic chairs. Dorothy’s was top and center in a larger font than all the others. Talk about royal treatment.

    The whole thing leaves me somewhat stupefied.

    Dorothy – She hath done what she could: Mark 14:8.
    This could be taken so many ways, I’m not sure what to presume.

    Page – And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    Revelation 12:11.

    The simplest interpretation, is this prophecy is spoken against Page Patterson. His name does appear below the text.
    (They) overcome him, due in part to public testimony.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  90. roebuck: But if you leave it to individual people’s interpretation of Scipture, it leads straight to the mess that is ‘evangelical’ Christianity today.

    To be honest, I don’t know what this means.

    The authority rests with God Himself, and like siblings in a family, as individuals, we do hear things differently. We each read, listen to the Holy Spirit, and interpret. Yet, healthy siblings and communities still collaborate and bond.

    Aren’t we each responsible to read the Bible and listen to the Holy Spirit without an “authority” standing over us and approving – except God Himself?

    Does there have to be a human hierarchy like Patterson and his patriarchal minions? Can we not find common ground aside from having an icon who only makes a fool of himself at the top?

    I think God by the grace of Jesus, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit can do it again today like the book of Acts. Problems, yes, as evidenced in the Epistles. Yet putting a guy at the top was never a recommendation from Paul to solve anything. He beseeched the brethren to put on their big-guy or big-girl pants and do the right thing or suffer the consequences in Eternity. It was on them, individually, to “as for them and their house, they each would serve the Lord.” When they disagreed, Paul and Silas and Barnabas and Mark went on two separate missions but no one established a dynasty – they didn’t end up with the Paul/Silas and Barnabas/Mark establishments/theologies/doctrines/schools/funds/followers, etc.

    It’s messy for each of us to be in the Word, but the alternative of a particular person as THE authority when each individual reads the Bible is worse. Listening to Bible teachers never replaces personal Bible study. It is because folks have taken it upon themselves to study gender in the Bible that the complementarian false teaching is uncovered. Someone had to dig deeper and not trust the “authorities” on that one.

    The disciples knew who Jesus was, and they knew their place. They wouldn’t have dared to establish each their own little kingdoms. That would have been the beginning of the end of their mission.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  91. Nathan Priddis: Does anyone see anything striking in the window?
    (Window with Dorothy seated)

    Sure do. “She has done what she could.” I bet. Because heaven help us if she had been free to do more! right. “what she could” indeed. You can be sure it was precious little compared to her “awesome husband” who is pictured towered over her with the quote, “They did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.” No comment about that one.

    And while we are talking about images of Mr. Patterson, does anyone else (who is old enough to remember) think that the pictures posted of him preaching all look like Archie Bunker from the 1970’s sitcom “All in the Family” ??? Just askin.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  92. Fisher: And while we are talking about images of Mr. Patterson, does anyone else (who is old enough to remember) think that the pictures posted of him preaching all look like Archie Bunker from the 1970’s sitcom “All in the Family” ???

    Not being an SBCer, I had never seen Patterson in action until I looked him up recently. Archie Bunker is exactly who he reminds me of – so much so that I have a hard time not laughing at him. He simply seems like a bizarre television caricature.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  93. Wow; excellent article! I know firsthand how a seminary will turn their back on an abused woman and her abused children. It is disgusting and beyond shocking!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  94. TimesUp,
    Cederville U also is a hard core young earth creationist institution. I do not know how a honest Scientist could teach there. CU’s position would impact most science disciplines….

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  95. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): I’m curious. PP is now “retired”. There’s an interim prez at SWBTS. Will DP continue to teach there, or is she “retired”, too??? Will the silly women’s program for degrees in “homemaking” continue to be offered???

    DP’s twitter bio has been scrubbed in the last few days. She formerly put herself forth as:

    “@SWBTS First Lady, Wife of @_PPatterson_, Mother…, Grandmother…, Author, Speaker, Mentor, Prof. to Women, Tea Connoisseur”

    That suddenly shrunk to:

    “Wife of @_PPatterson_, Mother…, Grandmother…, Author, Speaker, Mentor, Tea Connoisseur”

    [references to her being ‘First Lady’ of the seminary and a professor have been dropped]

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  96. roebuck:

    This, to me, is a huge problem – the human ability and propensity to have some vaguely numinous experience, ‘know’ that it’s ‘true’ (because that’s how it felt), and become fanatical about it. A lot of soi disant Christians are so because of some ‘feeling’ they had in some difficult situation, and they cling to it.

    They’re caught up in a raging river of trouble and emotion, and they grab the first piece of metaphysical flotsam that comes by, and make it to shore. They mistake this for some kind of resolution, when it’s really just an avoidance of what they need to deal with. I’ve seen it time and time again.

    Within the the human nervous system, the darndest things get flagged as ‘true’, and it’s always been so. People commit mass suicide for frackin’ Comet Cults, fer godz sake!

    Discernment seems almost impossible sometimes.

    I agree and I don’t have an obvious solution. The inexcapable subjectivity of life is a problem and for those who prefer order, one of the attractions of highly defined systems such as the RCC or the conservative Reformed system is that they significantly limit the scope of the individual’s believer’s freedom of conscience.

    I have known good people who became so strongly convinced (subjectivity) of their specific God-given personal missions that it seemed to me they were transgressing plain commands of Scripture in order to “get the (God-assigned) job done.” This was so disheartening to me that I have become somewhat skeptical of the idea of “subjective personal call” altogether. I don’t doubt that people will continue to experience this, and if they think it is “from God”, then they will be conscience-bound to pursue it. But it might be helpful to inject an element of self-skepticism into the process of discerning such calls. It might be wise to place more weight on the views of the larger local christian assembly to help determine whether one really has aptitude and character appropriate for vocational ministry.

    I suspect that would tend to result in the recruitment of older, more mature and better-tested people into vocational ministry. I keep coming back to that. I think that the current system of recruiting youths, intensive professional training, and dropping into leadership of groups they don’t know and that don’t know them, is not what the writers of the New Testament had in mind.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  97. Ray:
    Just finish reading a blog post from April Armstrong. I am speechless and angry. Her post clears away any last shred of doubt that SWBTS is corrupted to the core. These leaders’ consciences are seared.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/AprilCArmstrong/status/1000492167704596480

    Whew! Rewarding the man with a prestigious title, house, and pension sounds even more inappropriate now!

    That SWBTS Trustee Board sounds like an ole boys patriarchal fraternity who stick together no matter what, rather than Christian men who are able to discern right from wrong.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  98. Walking away from Christianity requires that we walk away from Jesus Christ. Think about that for a moment. In a cruel world full of hatred and evil—how can we leave the one person who actually cares about us the most?

    What other god out there is willing to sacrifice themselves for us? None of them. All they want is what they can take from us.

    Yes there are lots of other philosophies about life out there. But which one of those philosophers would nail themselves to a cross for us? None! Why? Because none of them actually care about us as much as they care about themselves.

    There’s a reason that Jesus said that these other pathways out there were “thieves and robbers.” (John 10:18) Think about that for a moment. Why would we want to walk away from the one person who actually cares about us—just to go down some other pathway designed by someone else to take from us?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  99. Max: Whew! Rewarding the man with a prestigious title, house, and pension sounds even more inappropriate now!

    April writes that clearly the man is a woman-hater, and then gives evidence. Troubling to say the least.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  100. roebuck,

    One other possibility (beyond retreat to one of the current systems) for dealing with the chaos comes to mind. Part of the problem is that hermeneutics (which I distinguish from exegesis) is not well constrained in present practice. Even exegesis is strongly conditioned by the mentality of the exegete. Luther, for example, was tormented by fear of Divine wrath; that surely shaped the theology he found as he taught Romans to his students.

    Other writers here have suggested that constraints can be placed on exegesis and hermeneutics/application by involving other disciplines. This is surely true.

    Here’s a remarkable example that touches on the patriarchy/authority question:

    http://www.nakedbiblepodcast.com/naked-bible-86-the-head-covering-of-1-corinthians-1113-15/

    Granting the validity of the argument presented there (and it looks highly persuasive to me), it seems to me that one is compelled to admit that we don’t know to what extent Paul’s gender-specific commands were not intended to be timeless principles but rather were shaped by the cultural context in which he was ministering (a context in which women were intrinsically lower status than men of the same social class). That ought to be a subject of intense research interest.

    Given the widespread availability of the Scriptures in modern languages, we will probably never get the “genie” of the “individual interpretation” approach, that flattens the “two horizons” problem into a kind of direct personal revelation, back into the bottle, but I think that it is possible that over time, at least in the scholarly community, there could be more consensus about what these documents meant to their original authors and recipients, and that consensus might lead to better (and more uniform) interpretive application of the texts into the life of the present-day churches.

    I have been very impressed with the work of an Anglican theologian, NT Wright. His interpretation of Jesus’ message and ministry to Israel in “Jesus and the Victory of God” is stunning/thrilling while still being familiar in terms of more traditional views. Wright tries to locate the Gospel narratives in the context of their historical context — 2nd Temple Judaism, Roman occupation and the messianic ferment of oppressed Israel, and Hellenistic influences. The result is impressive and I suspect will be with us for centuries to come.

    I agree that the present situation is disheartening, but I’m not persuaded that it’s beyond redemption.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  101. jyjames: Troubling to say the least.

    There is a lot in SBC life right now that is troubling. Leadership in both camps (non-Calvinist and Calvinist) just don’t view female believers as God does – through the Cross of Christ. On one hand, you have folks like Paige Patterson representing the ole boy remnant from the Conservative Resurgence with ingrained misogynistic attitudes. On the other hand, you have folks like Al Mohler representing the Calvinism Resurgence and their softer version of patriarchy, the “beauty of complementarity.” Respective followers have mistaken their idols’ in-your-face, put-women-in-their-place leadership styles as an anointing from God.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  102. Samuel Conner: The result is impressive and I suspect will be with us for centuries to come.

    Possibly, since he is just part of a more extensive movement which is taking another look at Jesus. And similarly the other movement which is taking another look at Paul.

    I am reading Jesus Before the Gospels by Ehrman right now, and he has just got into the discussion that during the period after the crucifixion and resurrection including the time after pentecost the disciples were taking another look at Jesus and asking what now.

    I think we got pretty far off track in some things. Well, the offspring of the reformation think that about the pre-reformation church. It is just that I also think that about the post reformation church. Heck, I think we started going off track from the get go. Which puts me in good company albeit the professionals know a lot more of what they are doing than I know of what I am doing.

    Perhaps we miss some solutions because we look straight at things and fail to see them, like the experiment that Ehrman quotes of the gorilla on the film. Or like the ‘motto’ which more or less referenced Goethe that one sees what one looks for and one looks for what one knows to look for. IMO we fail to look for some things because if we actually ‘saw’ them the personal consequences would be more than we want to deal with.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  103. Phil Johnson is trying to resurrect his Pyromaniacs blog:

    http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2018/05/phils-back.html

    “I…Dan Phillips and Frank Turk…launched the team blog in January of 2006. We wrote a lot of good, thoughtful posts…But we quickly noticed a couple of surprising trends. First, the more purposefully rational and irenic our content, the less discussion our writing evoked.”

    “I formally retired in 2012 on my 59th birthday, and most of the evangelical blogosphere breathed a deep, cosmic sigh of relief.”

    “So here’s the thing. I suddenly have the itch to write…Not every day, of course, but from time to time—perhaps weekly or so… I’d love to get occasional contributions from [Dan Phillips and Frank Turk]…or anyone else who shares both my passion for biblical Christianity and my contempt for every effort to make the evangelical movement more politically correct. Consider this an open invitation to submit articles you think might be of interest to my readers. If you write enough blogposts that fit, I’ll give you a set of keys to the blog and make you an official PyroManiac.

    A commenter responded Phil’s Thursday announcement:

    “THANK YOU GOD!!!! Frank Turk….please, please, please pick up the pen again!”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  104. okrapod:
    I think we got pretty far off track in some things.Well, the offspring of the reformation think that about the pre-reformation church.It is just that I also think that about the post reformation church.Heck, I think we started going off track from the get go.

    I have similar intuitions, which are deeply offensive to churchmen of all flavors, invested as they are in the systems of which they are part.

    The two great commands, “Love God with your whole being” and “Love your neighbor as yourself”, have been collapsed in much practice into what often becomes a kind of theological tribalism. Conservative Reformed, for example, believe that God hates the non-elect; it is not surprising that there is not much kindness in them (in my experience, at least) toward outsiders.

    There was beauty in the earliest churches that attracted the notice of unbelievers. The first congregation, in Jerusalem, “enjoyed the favor of all the people.” Pagan Romans were impressed by the courage and generosity of persecuted believers.

    “Love one another as I have loved you”; “By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you love one another”.

    And, of course, 1 Jn 3:16

    In my experience, these agendas are subordinated to other things, such as the necessity of maintaining doctrinal uniformity or perceived imperatives of implementing numerical growth strategies. I suspect that if it were somehow possible to simply “image Christ in the quality of our relationships, one with another”, it might be transformative, and local churches might enjoy the favor of the people among whom they seek to minister. Jesus is still attractive, and where He is plainly visible, people are still drawn to Him.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  105. Avid Reader: Walking away from Christianity requires that we walk away from Jesus Christ. Think about that for a moment. In a cruel world full of hatred and evil—how can we leave the one person who actually cares about us the most?

    Walking away from Jesus of Nazareth vs. walking away from the various trappings that have grown up around him through the centuries is not equivalent, nor is it one and the same (my opinion).

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  106. Avid Reader: Walking away from Christianity requires that we walk away from Jesus Christ. Think about that for a moment. In a cruel world full of hatred and evil—how can we leave the one person who actually cares about us the most?

    Disregarding that after a couple generations of Godly Christian Nation, the name “Jesus Christ” will have acquired the same baggage as the name “Adolf Hitler”?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  107. Jerome: DP’s twitter bio has been scrubbed in the last few days.She formerly put herself forth as:

    “@SWBTS First Lady, Wife of @_PPatterson_, Mother…, Grandmother…, Author, Speaker, Mentor, Prof. to Women, Tea Connoisseur”

    That suddenly shrunk to:

    “Wife of @_PPatterson_, Mother…, Grandmother…, Author, Speaker, Mentor, Tea Connoisseur”

    [references to her being ‘First Lady’ of the seminary and a professor have been dropped]

    But she’s still on the Stained Glass Window in SWBTS’s Holy of Holies…

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  108. truthseeker00: It’s sort of exciting when you look at it like that. Just think if the overthrow of the Institutional Church actually ushered in a real awakening of men about who God is and what he desires to do for, in and with us!

    Or it could just as easily spawn fragmentation into even more little Independent Real True Fellowhips drifting into CULT territory — the “twelve guys in someone’s living room chanting in their socks” syndrome.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  109. Samuel Conner: “Love one another as I have loved you”; “By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you love one another”.

    And, of course, 1 Jn 3:16

    In my experience, these agendas are subordinated to other things,

    That is the issue, when God’s agenda is lost in man’s pursuit of … whatever. Revelation notes the church that has lost its first love, which is as you stated.

    https://mereorthodoxy.com/paige-patterson-abuse-scandal/ This village vs. individual post touches on how to be true to one’s own relationship with God while participating in a group (church). A commentor then noted: informed consumers (reading the Bible, listening to the Holy Spirit for themselves) in the village connect while maintaining integrity.

    Not rocket science. Healthy offspring mature into their own lives & opinions while respecting elders. Unfortunately, sometimes elders step over the line and distance is best. Jesus went beyond distance, he repudiated the religious elders of his community, #timewasup.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  110. __

    “What matters most is an individual‘s bright dedicated future in Christ?”

    hmmm…

    Privileged predatorial 501c3 professional clergy’s truest enemy and Christianity’s greatest ally, is the self-educated individual who has read the holy scriptures for themselves, believes and understands them, while in turn consistently acting favorably upon them, moderates their gratification, and walks around with their eyes wide open.

    ATB

    Sòpy

    ;~)

    – –

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  111. roebuck: That seems to me to be the exact same problem. ‘One’s own conscience’ is going to be different from some other ‘one’s own conscience’. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who is humble? Who should acquiesce? It’s subjective all the way down.

    Who is Right?
    He who can FORCE His Will on Others.
    Who is Wrong?
    He who goes under the bus of He Who Is Right.

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
    — Lord Voldemort

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  112. Headless Unicorn Guy: Or it could just as easily spawn fragmentation into even more little Independent Real True Fellowhips drifting into CULT territory — the “twelve guys in someone’s living room chanting in their socks” syndrome.

    True. We have religious freedom and cults can thrive (Sheela and the Rajneesh).

    The Holy Spirit can also pull together God’s Remnant. The internet is a paradigm shift for journalism, education, retail sales, telcom, entertainment, politics, etc. It may play a part in pulling God’s people together. It certainly is outing a few bad apples (who can run but they cannot hide). I wondered about the guy who does not use his last name. Hiding something from a google search?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  113. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    The Might is Right deal didn’t work in the Resurrection of Jesus. Just when the disciples thought all was lost and evil had the upper hand – voila – Jesus had the last word.

    God is dismantling aspects of the institutional church before our eyes. How God’s people will rise from the ashes, perhaps only God knows.

    Silent women in the pews for many years thought, “This is not right”. Last-minute-God, patiently finally got to it. What’s next? God is full of surprises. Who foresaw #MeToo and #ChurchToo…

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  114. Sòpy: Christianity’s greatest ally, is the self-educated individual who has read the holy scriptures for themselves, believes and understands them, while in turn consistently acting favorably upon them, moderates their gratification, and walks around with their eyes wide open.

    YES!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  115. Muff Potter: Walking away from Jesus of Nazareth vs. walking away from the various trappings that have grown up around him through the centuries is not equivalent, nor is it one and the same (my opinion).

    Also my opinion. And there is the issue that some messianic Jews do not call themselves Christians even though some people disagree with their self characterization as not actually Christians. Bottom line, whoever gets to define the words also controls the discourse.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  116. Muff Potter: Walking away from Jesus of Nazareth vs. walking away from the various trappings that have grown up around him through the centuries is not equivalent, nor is it one and the same (my opinion).

    I agree.

    A lot of what goes on in the SBC has nothing to do with true Christianity.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  117. Max: Headless Unicorn Guy: But they have their own Stained Glass Window in the Holy of Holies!

    So does Paul Pressler.

    Maybe it’s the abomination of desolation! HA HA!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  118. Am I the only one who was stunned by the opulence in that “Pecan Manor” video? How does this compare to the rest of the faculty?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  119. Samuel Conner: I think that it is really easy to deceive oneself into believing what one wants to be true. Scripture can function as a tool to justify the position one prefers rather than a standard by which to evaluate one’s heart. So PP might sincerely believe it is better for an abused woman to go back to her abuser than to flee for personal safety.

    You are charitable. My feeling is that by the time someone has reached the level PP is at, there have been many, MANY -innumerable- forks in the road in which one was faced with a choice between right and wrong, good and bad, truth and deception, light and dark… A person who believes sincerely but mistakenly will come up against many checks and balances in life, many struggles to rectify what one believes with what one sees happening to other human beings in one’s sphere, many times where one must come down on the side of love or- the other side. Choices have been made consistently over decades in spite of being faced with the truth. To me this speaks of cynicism as opposed to sincerity. Just my own impression.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  120. elastigirl: Nick, Jack, me… i think we have a problem with the christian party platform. not with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit (names given to these entities that all seem to work together)

    we have felt the power because the entities of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are real.

    the label “christian” is like any other label — “democrat”, “republican”, “green party”, “vegetarian”, “vegan”.

    we can jettison the label, the party platform in all its engineering. like the self-liberation of quitting a miserable & abusive place of employment and walking out a free individual.

    God is alive and well, accessible and available, outside the engineered confines of party platforms.

    we can keep it simple. God is as available as air, as the sun in its warmth, in the hope of its rising and the delightful beauty of its setting. and we can just be.

    YES.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  121. jyjames: village vs. individual

    A healthy village (community) is comprised of healthy individuals.

    Note the church leadership that negates people thinking/studying/discoursing on their own (both genders), and further note a dysfunctional community. At that point, it is wise to walk on, alone even, to find healthier individuals for a healthier community.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  122. Siteseer: Am I the only one who was stunned by the opulence in that “Pecan Manor” video?

    Well, I ken I’m not the only one who thought it strange they named it after a nut.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  123. Siteseer: You are charitable. My feeling is that by the time someone has reached the level PP is at, there have been many, MANY -innumerable- forks in the road in which one was faced with a choice between right and wrong, good and bad, truth and deception, light and dark… A person who believes sincerely but mistakenly will come up against many checks and balances in life, many struggles to rectify what one believes with what one sees happening to other human beings in one’s sphere, many times where one must come down on the side of love or- the other side. Choices have been made consistently over decades in spite of being faced with the truth. To me this speaks of cynicism as opposed to sincerity. Just my own impression.

    I agree. I was trying to adopt a sympathetic to “what it is like to be PP” posture, without justifying or defending beliefs or actions. If one does negotiate with conscience enough, one probably is able to attenuate its influence (the “seared conscience”) and then there is not much restraint on the will to obtain what one desires, except perhaps fear of repercussions.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  124. Fisher: Sure do.“She has done what she could.”I bet.Because heaven help us if she had been free to do more! right.“what she could” indeed.You can be sure it was precious little compared to her “awesome husband” who is pictured towered over her with the quote, “They did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.”No comment about that one.

    And while we are talking about images of Mr. Patterson, does anyone else (who is old enough to remember) think that the pictures posted of him preaching all look like Archie Bunker from the 1970’s sitcom “All in the Family” ??? Just askin.

    A portrayal of Dorothy as the weaker sex is one definite option.
    This is a fragmented verse, and devaluation of womanhood, would be arguably literal.(if viewed only as a segment)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  125. elastigirl: Nick, Jack, me… i think we have a problem with the christian party platform. not with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit (names given to these entities that all seem to work together)

    Nope. Past a certain point, I simply have to say: this just doesn’t work.

    I don’t have a problem with the idea of Jesus of Nazareth, or the idea that he, as recorded in the four mainstream gospel accounts, is God reaching out to us in human form. But what I’ve experienced is so capricious, and the signal-noise ratio is so low, that I can’t say I have any strong confidence in the explanation that there must be a God. To me, the alternative explanations for all the (genuinely) interesting phenomena I’ve seen are starting to make more and more sense.

    I call myself an agnostic, not a None or a Done. I really don’t know whether there is a “God” or, if there is, what he/she/it is like. What I can say is: my experience as a whole, in around 40 years of pursuing the idea of “God”, is a null result.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  126. Avid Reader,

    “Walking away from Christianity requires that we walk away from Jesus Christ. Think about that for a moment. In a cruel world full of hatred and evil—how can we leave the one person who actually cares about us the most?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    “christianity” is a collection of many different interpretations of a text, the proponents of which all believe only they are correct and all the others are wrong. to the point of destroying their careers, the social fabric of their lives, their reputation, sprinkled with ignoring them as if they do not exist.

    Jesus Christ is far above all of this.

    ——————————–

    “Why would we want to walk away from the one person who actually cares about us—just to go down some other pathway designed by someone else to take from us?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    been on the “Christian” pathway designed by many people with an agenda for far too long. it didn’t lead to Jesus Christ.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  127. Avid Reader: Walking away from Christianity requires that we walk away from Jesus Christ.

    … “Christianity” = “Jesus Christ”?











    I can only assume this is a joke. There is no more compelling evidence that “Jesus Christ” is a myth than “Christianity”.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  128. I’m struggling with wanting to share my story publicly because all of my issues happened recently in the SBC, and with people and systems who are generally non-Patterson camps.

    I fear I won’t be believed or valued by sharing, and it might make it worse. My whole experience really messed me up in a lot of ways and re-created and re-enacted past trauma. So much other non-SBC stuff has happened alongside it that kind of made it all into this complex perfect storm in my life that I’ve been reeling in for awhile.

    I really resonated with April Armstrong’s experience as a female academic in their circles.

    Me just saying this much here is all the courage I can muster as I type through tears. I think this is all I can share at the moment, as vague as it is. I think I feel better typing this much out and I hope it can also help someone else.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  129. emily honey:
    I fear I won’t be believed or valued by sharing, and it might make it worse. My whole experience really messed me up in a lot of ways and re-created and re-enacted past trauma. So much other non-SBC stuff has happened alongside it that kind of made it all into this complex perfect storm in my life that I’ve been reeling in for awhile.

    You may just need more time and that’s alright. Tell your story when you are ready, if that is what you feel you should do.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  130. Nick Bulbeck: Avid Reader: Walking away from Christianity requires that we walk away from Jesus Christ.

    … “Christianity” = “Jesus Christ”?

    I can only assume this is a joke. There is no more compelling evidence that “Jesus Christ” is a myth than “Christianity”.

    But Christianity means the following of Jesus Christ.

    John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

    Those who walked no more with him were no longer his.

    Christianity is not the same as “Churchianity.” It is belonging to Christ. Not being a Christ-ian means not belonging to Christ, not walking with him and in his ways.

    No one who loves God should let the corruption of Church leaders cause them to no more walk with Jesus Christ and keep his commandments.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  131. emily honey: I think I feel better typing this much out and I hope it can also help someone else.

    You do help by identifying with the struggle, #ChurchToo. Thank God for social media, as here is a group newly formed that is going to gather in Dallas with the #SBCtoo message. Every voice of shared truth helps. It took many witnesses and documents to verify the WW2 Holocaust. One testimony didn’t do it. Survivors all told the same story in separate accounts = confirmed witnesses.

    https://www.forsuchatimeasthisrally.com/

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  132. ishy,

    Thanks!

    I have been trying to speak out against ideas and systems while in the SBC and after I have left. Telling my personal story is a matter of timing, I think. I want to add my voice in any way possible. My story is more covert and has a lot of layers.

    Some of the stuff I am still really confused by and working through and need more distance to zee more clearly.

    I should say my story doesn’t involve sexual assault or anything of that nature, however. But how I was treated by some men and others made me feel like I was reliving past trauma around that issue. I did experience sexual harrassment/inappropriate comments in the SBC, though. I never really felt safe.

    Glad to see other former SBC women like you around!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  133. Nick Bulbeck: I call myself an agnostic, not a None or a Done. I really don’t know whether there is a “God” or, if there is, what he/she/it is like. What I can say is: my experience as a whole, in around 40 years of pursuing the idea of “God”, is a null result.

    Not a null result. Seems to me you came through it with an awful lot of knowledge.

    I don’t consider my “Christian era” to be a waste of time. It made me who I am.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  134. Beth74: No one who loves God should let the corruption of Church leaders cause them to no more walk with Jesus Christ and keep his commandments.

    Which path? The Roman Catholic one? The charismatic one? The Eastern orthodox one? The baptist one?
    They can’t all be right.
    Absence doesn’t make the heart grow fonder. I don’t miss religion and Jesus hasn’t seen fit to reveal anything to me. But neither has Krishna, Buddha, Allah or the Chipmunks.
    I would recommend anyone struggling with faith to take a break (if you can). Read books other than Christian literature or Christian music.
    For what it’s worth there are christians who balance the secular and their faith. My wife is one of them.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  135. Sherry,

    Thomas White fired the only female bible prof at Cedarville shortly after arriving. Sound familiar ? The mentee doesn’t fall far from the mentor. A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher. Like 6:40

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  136. Jack: Which path? The Roman Catholic one? The charismatic one? The Eastern orthodox one? The baptist one?
    They can’t all be right.

    That is true that they can’t all be totally right, but they all do seem to have some valuable insights which can be useful. Choosing a clan and declaring it the totality of one’s thinking can be disastrous.

    But just saying that some clan, some discipline, some group has inadequacies and therefore there is no value in any of it, that can also be a bad idea. For one thing, the truth is, that what your doctor tells you about something will probably be declared wrong just a few years from now. But in the meantime one does the best one can.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  137. Jack: Read books other than Christian literature or Christian music.

    Jack,

    Think about the last time that you took your wife out to a nice meal. While you were enjoying yourselves—there were lots of other people driving past the restaurant. None of them choose to eat there that night. Did their refusal to eat there stop you from enjoying a nice dinner with your wife? Of course not.

    Yes, there are lots of other pathways out there that turn away from Jesus. Yes, there are endless amounts of human opinions on religion that often change. But so what? Who cares? Their indecision shouldn’t stop us from making our own decisions.

    In blog comments, it can be hard to hear tone of voice. I’m not trying to be sharp here. My point is that the existence of many other voices in the world speaking to us—still doesn’t prove that what they are saying is good for us.

    Now for the record—I’ve already done a crazy amount of heavy duty reading. We’re talking about reading real books, not just basic internet searches but real heavy duty research. I’ve devoted many hours to reading all kinds of books with points of view way outside my beliefs. That’s why it bothered me that you assumed that just because we are people of faith that must mean we haven’t already done that kind of research. Yes, we actually do read all kinds of secular books and listen to both sides.

    That heavy duty research is exactly what made me realize that all these other points of view never cared as much about us as they care about themselves. They are just looking for what they can take from us.

    Yes, there are lots of other pathways out there. So what? The existence of these other pathways doesn’t prove that it should matter to us. Just because other people have endless opinions on who Jesus is—doesn’t prove that those opinions are valid.

    We follow Christ. Not all these other different denominations. Our faith is rooted in Christ. Not all these other human opinions that keep changing.
    No other god, politician, philosopher, Hollywood celebrity, or anyone else cares enough about us to do what Christ did.

    All that heavy duty reading is what made me realize that Jesus really is the Way the Truth the Life.

    If you don’t believe that—then just keep driving past the restaurant. That won’t stop the rest of us from enjoying our dinner. All we ask is that you would stop jumping to conclusions about us. Just because we are people of faith doesn’t mean that we’ve lost our critical thinking skills. Logic and reason is exactly why we believe in Jesus.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  138. Just listen to this panel discussion from the link mentioned in your article …
    https://www.9marks.org/interview/feminism-your-church-and-home-russell-moore-randy-stinson-and-cj-mahaney/

    Not only is it offensive, it is the very thing that incriminates all four of these men. As someone once said you can’t unring a bell.

    Any author, speaker, Pastor, PhD, movement leader, etc., that (accurately) writes about women as deacons, but fails to have any in his own church, is sending a clear message. Oddly, all that that message encompasses, words fail me to describe.

    I’m reminded of the words of Jesus, that perfect love casts out fear. So, I would challenge Dever with this, “What are you really fearing in all your clever, strategic subjugating of women?”

    I would say that you have not yet truly apprehended the perfect love of Christ in your own life and when (and, Lord willing, if) you do, it will cast out the fear that is keeping you from loving your sisters well and fearlessly to the point that you not only invite them to the leadership table, but you encourage and support their ministries and see that their ministries are carried out, based on their Holy Spirit distributed giftedness, not their gender.

    I’ll add this, if you wanted to know the truth about your gender restrictive “proof texts” you could learn it… it’s not a matter of being unable, it’s a matter of being unwilling. (Although I should add that if it is unable, you must wonder why you have an inability, even though you have a responsibility.)

    You are a voice, Mark Dever, and a movement that fortunately many pastors are seeing their way through it’s fallacies and no longer buying the plug and play model of church that you are peddling for profit and fame.

    I have often wondered… If the women could text Paul, and say, “hey Paul, this is what my church is requiring, and this is what my church is no longer allowing, and this is what my church is doing”…what would Paul’s reply be? Let’s remember that it was Chloe’s people that wrote Paul about the problems in Corinth.

    Oh, who should the women appeal to today in the Southern Baptist convention? Is there one?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  139. Just listen to this panel discussion from the link mentioned in your article …
    https://www.9marks.org/interview/feminism-your-church-and-home-russell-moore-randy-stinson-and-cj-mahaney/

    Not only is it offensive, it is the very thing that incriminates all four of these men. As someone once said you can’t unring a bell.

    Any author, speaker, Pastor, PhD, movement leader, etc., that (accurately) writes about women as deacons, but fails to have any in his own church, is sending a clear message. Oddly, all that that message encompasses, words fail me to describe.

    I’m reminded of the words of Jesus, that perfect love casts out fear. So, I would challenge Dever with this, “What are you really fearing in all your clever, strategic subjugating of women?”

    I would say that you have not yet truly apprehended the perfect love of Christ in your own life and when (and, Lord willing, if) you do, it will cast out the fear that is keeping you from loving your sisters well and fearlessly to the point that you not only invite them to the leadership table, but you encourage and support their ministries and see that their ministries are carried out, based on their Holy Spirit distributed giftedness, not their gender.

    I’ll add this, if you wanted to know the truth about your gender restrictive “proof texts” you could learn it… it’s not a matter of being unable, it’s a matter of being unwilling. (Although I should add that if it is unable, you must wonder why you have an inability, even though you have a responsibility.)

    You are a voice, Mark Dever, and a movement that fortunately many pastors are seeing their way through it’s fallacies and no longer buying the plug and play model of church that you are peddling for profit and fame.

    I have often wondered… If the women could text Paul, and say, “hey Paul, this is what my church is requiring, and this is what my church is no longer allowing, and this is what my church is doing”…what would Paul’s reply be? Let’s remember that it was Chloe’s people that wrote Paul about the problems in Corinth.

    Oh, who should the women appeal to today in the Southern Baptist convention? Is there one???

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  140. Siteseer: My feeling is that by the time someone has reached the level PP is at, there have been many, MANY -innumerable- forks in the road in which one was faced with a choice between right and wrong, good and bad, truth and deception, light and dark…

    From the Atlantic Magazine: Power Causes Brain Damage | How leaders lose mental capacities—most notably for reading other people—that were essential to their rise
    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/power-causes-brain-damage/528711/

    Once you have no one to challenge your ideas and decisions, you are practically doomed.

    That’s why kids are so good for you.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  141. Another fact- Paige Patterson was behind the massive exodus/retirement of IMB missionaries a few years back. His reason? The missionaries weren’t theologically sound and church planting movements were wreaking havoc abroad. Of course, because Church planting movements they are the polar opposite of all Mr. Patterson stands for.

    Movements typically produce house churches, most of which don’t have preaching at all, but focus on group discovery bible study. Members search the scriptures together and each person comes up with an action step based on what they just studied/read. Groups are small. Meetings are usually in homes. They are led by local people serving as elders rather than highly educated superstar “pastor teachers”. Men and women serve as the Holy Spirit leads.

    Church planting movements focus on the priesthood of all believers- disciples make disciples and nobody controls anyone. There are over 600 verified church planting movements around the world today which have brought joy and transformation to millions of people. Literally.

    And who are the most vocal voices criticizing such new believers and new churches? Seminary professors from the SBC. No. They would rather have one man preach and everyone else sit silently. They want member covenants, women silenced and men reduced to handing out bulletins while THEY get to rule them all. Control, control, control.

    Meanwhile some of the IMB’s best and brightest were actively seeing God launch movements around the world. And they were actively training cross cultural workers from many backgrounds to start new movements.

    No wonder Mr. Patterson was apoplectic and declared war on the IMB missionaries. He couldn’t control it!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  142. Gus,

    Insightful article… “the “power paradox”: Once we have power, we lose some of the capacities we needed to gain it in the first place.”

    A strong word to those who have ascended in power.., those domating ruler/pastors who would recoil at the thought of kneeling and girding their waist with a towel to do the lowliest or tasks. “Nah, that’s a gender role defined task which we will relegate to the women. As for us, we will ascend….”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  143. Avid Reader: If you don’t believe that—then just keep driving past the restaurant. That won’t stop the rest of us from enjoying our dinner. All we ask is that you would stop jumping to conclusions about us. Just because we are people of faith doesn’t mean that we’ve lost our critical thinking skills. Logic and reason is exactly why we believe in Jesus.

    I’ve stated multiple times that christianity and critical thinking aren’t mutually exclusive. But people stuck in these authoritarian communities have had that taken away from them.
    I no longer have a dog in this fight and have no interest in mixing it up with you or anyone else on this blog. Been there. Done that.
    But I have a Christian wife so I get a fair bit of take out from cafe Christianity.
    Some franchises in the Christian restaurant are serving rotten food.
    All i’m saying is a balanced diet is required and sometimes you need to find somewhere else to eat.
    It’s ok for people to leave. You can always go back when your stomach has settled to a place with a cleaner kitchen.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  144. okrapod: Also my opinion. And there is the issue that some messianic Jews do not call themselves Christians even though some people disagree with their self characterization as not actually Christians. Bottom line, whoever gets to define the words also controls the discourse.

    We have a congregation of Messianic Jews here in my town. And as you’ve observed, they don’t use the label ‘Christian’ for a variety of reasons, some of which I would imagine are to retain and maintain certain cultural markers of Judaism.

    When you go to their website, it could just as well be any one of a half dozen other fundagelical* websites here in town, only the labeling scheme is different.
    And yes, once you control the words and labels, you also own the terms and conditions which apply.

    *I use the term ‘fundagelical’ here not as a pejorative, but only as a descriptor.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  145. Nick Bulbeck,

    “Nope. Past a certain point, I simply have to say: this just doesn’t work.

    I don’t have a problem with the idea of Jesus of Nazareth, or the idea that he, as recorded in the four mainstream gospel accounts, is God reaching out to us in human form. But what I’ve experienced is so capricious, and the signal-noise ratio is so low, that I can’t say I have any strong confidence in the explanation that there must be a God.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    i’m sure i was presumptuous, Nick. sorry. it’s one of the last things i want to be.

    yes, the signal-noise ration is disappointingly low.

    i’ve tended to see it like a scene from the movie “The Abyss”:

    –A military person joins the crew in the under-the-sea station. he demonstrates a new technology for breathing in a water environment.

    –He takes container, pours it with the high-tec blue fluid, puts a lab rat in it…

    –at first the lab rat panics a little and struggles, then the rat relaxes, and actually starts breathing.

    –learning to breath something so other.

    i think we can learn to receive the signal from God fm. and learn to have sensitive antennae.

    i don’t think cerebral thinking/analysis is part of the process.

    but i don’t think God demands any of us to DO IT NOW.

    i don’t think God is hard to please, and any and all random acts of kindness for the sake of our fellow human beings and senseless acts of beauty for their own sakes mean a lot to God.

    (i could have been anthropomorpho sis’ as my super identity)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  146. emily honey: Glad to see other former SBC women like you around!

    I’m still an “SBC woman”, but just barely. I haven’t attended church in more than 2 years. I’m fed up and ticked off at the way women are marginalized and shut out in church services. Well shoot, most sermons I hear don’t even apply to women because we are not allowed to do certain things. When sermons do apply to women, it’s all about submitting! Hissssssss!
    I was raised a rough and tumble country girl to the core, so I have a mean streak. I don’t go to church because I’m afraid of what some man might do or say. I don’t go to church because I am afraid of what I might do or say!

    Your story, Emily …… take your time. When (and if) it feels right to you, share. Maybe you can write your story….. proof read,p….. think a while….. then send it to the DEEBS to post on TWW. Whatever you choose, whatever your story, you have people here that are with you in spirit!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  147. Augustine:
    Just listen to this panel discussion from the linkmentioned in your article …
    https://www.9marks.org/interview/feminism-your-church-and-home-russell-moore-randy-stinson-and-cj-mahaney/

    Not only is it offensive, it is the very thing that incriminates all four of these men. As someone once said you can’t unring a bell.

    Any author, speaker, Pastor, PhD, movement leader, etc., that (accurately) writes about women as deacons, but fails to have any in his own church, is sending a clearmessage.Oddly, all that that message encompasses, words fail me to describe.

    I’m reminded of the words of Jesus, that perfect love casts out fear.So, I would challenge Dever with this, “What are you really fearing in all your clever, strategicsubjugating of women?”

    I would say that you have not yet truly apprehended the perfect love of Christ in your own life and when (and, Lord willing, if) you do, it will cast out the fear that is keeping you from loving your sisters well and fearlessly to the point that you not only invite them to the leadership table, but you encourage and support their ministries and see that their ministries are carried out, based on their Holy Spirit distributed giftedness, not their gender.

    I’ll add this, if you wanted to know the truth about yourgender restrictive “proof texts” you could learn it… it’s not a matter of being unable, it’s a matter of being unwilling. (Although I should add that if it is unable, you must wonder why you have an inability, even though you have a responsibility.)

    You are a voice, Mark Dever, and a movement that fortunately many pastors are seeing their way through it’s fallacies and no longer buying the plug and play model of church that you are peddling for profit and fame.

    I have often wondered… If the women could text Paul, and say, “hey Paul, this is what my church is requiring, and this is what my church is no longer allowing, and this is what my church is doing”…what would Paul’s reply be? Let’s remember that it was Chloe’s people that wrote Paul about the problems in Corinth.

    Oh, who should the women appeal to today in the Southern Baptist convention?Is there one?

    I tried. I couldn’t stomach the first 10 minutes of it. Please, just start putting bride prices on all the single women and auction them off at the church altar!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  148. Muff Potter,

    didn’t like the end, though. at least in my memory. looked like a ride at the fair — should have retained a mysterious edge.

    do you remember that lab rat breathing liquid scene? do you see apt and/or useful metaphors in it?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  149. Anthony,

    …so immature.

    like my sister at age 4 — because she didn’t win, flipping the chinese checkers game board up into the air to crash on the floor scattering so many little game pieces clattering to the four corners of the room. then storming out of the room for others to clean up.

    (just have keen memory of it — my pieces were hot pink transparent, hers were yellow opaque. little white round metal board with holes. and boy was she mad! red-faced & all)

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  150. Jack: Which path? The Roman Catholic one? The charismatic one? The Eastern orthodox one? The baptist one?
    They can’t all be right.

    Who says they have to be all right (or all wrong for that matter)?
    I consider myself a Smorgasbord Christian (one of the few who’ll admit to it and own it).

    I pick and choose from the long tables what I want to put on my plate and leave the rest.
    I’m under no obligation to eat what I have no taste for.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  151. elastigirl: i don’t think cerebral thinking/analysis is part of the process.

    Funny you’d mention that, because in all my wanderings (not all who wander are lost) I’ve never needed a lock-stock-and-barrel-airtight-ironclad-Euclidean style proof for what I believe by faith.

    Even Voltaire wrote on the phenomenon of ‘faith’:
    “Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  152. elastigirl: like my sister at age 4 — because she didn’t win, flipping the chinese checkers game board up into the air to crash on the floor scattering so many little game pieces clattering to the four corners of the room. then storming out of the room for others to clean up.

    “I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.”
    — Ecclesiastes 9:11 —

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  153. Tim:
    Theologian in Residence is a title that shows unmitigated approval for his doctrine and practice. SWBTS remains Paige Patterson’s seminary.

    In medieval Japan, when an Emperor retired he often could wield more power than he could as Emperor, no longer constrained by the ceremonial rules and protocols of the Imperial throne.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  154. Muff Potter: We have a congregation of Messianic Jews here in my town. And as you’ve observed, they don’t use the label ‘Christian’ for a variety of reasons, some of which I would imagine are to retain and maintain certain cultural markers of Judaism.

    Not sure what “cultural markers of Judaism” they retain.

    My observation of “Jews for Jesus” types is they do not show a lot of the traits of Judaism — the respect for learning, the sense of humor, the earthiness I associate with Jews.

    When you go to their website, it could just as well be any one of a half dozen other fundagelical* websites here in town, only the labeling scheme is different.

    Instead, they come across as Calvary Chapels with Hebrew terminology and buzzwords:
    “HAVE YOU ACCEPTED YESHUA HA-MOSHIYAH AS YOUR PERSONAL ADONAI AND SAVIOR?????”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  155. Augustine: A strong word to those who have ascended in power.., those domating ruler/pastors who would recoil at the thought of kneeling and girding their waist with a towel to do the lowliest or tasks. “Nah, that’s a gender role defined task which we will relegate to the women. As for us, we will ascend….”

    “…until our Thrones are Exalted above that of the Most High.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *