Paul Pressler’s ‘Alleged’ Molestations – Worst Kept Secret in Houston? Two More Accusers Come Forward

“He’s been very blatant and very careless over the years running after young boys and picking them up from these various church youth Bible study groups.”

Daniel Shea, Attorney for Gareld Duane Rollins 


https://www.facebook.com/JudgePaulPressler/photos/a.109387189138908.15016.109387009138926/109387192472241/?type=1&theater

Paul Pressler – Facebook Profile Picture (screen shot)

Last Friday the Houston Chronicle revealed that more male accusers have come forward with claims against Judge Paul Pressler. In a previous post, we reported that a second man has broken his silence regarding an incident that occurred when he was 15 or 16. That individual was involved in the youth program at a Presbyterian church in Houston, and the leader of that group was Paul Pressler.

One night Pressler drove the teen to the Houston Oaks Country Club. Said teen had gone to the country club with Pressler before, but always with a group. This time he was Pressler’s only passenger. During their time at the Club, the teen alleges that Pressler groped him while they were alone in the steam bath/sauna. A Baptist News Global article quotes this individual as follows:

“I was absolutely not aroused,” the statement says. “I froze. Shocked, stunned and utterly frightened, I had no idea what to expect next. I was naked and trapped — miles from home — and I needed to be beyond Pressler’s reach.”

“My instincts told me to carry on as though nothing had happened — to end the incident with no further incident. With great difficulty, I talked calmly, while staying alert. We returned to the locker room and dressed. Then Pressler drove me to my car without further incident. I went home and from that moment I have stayed away from him.”

The Houston Chronicle revealed the name of this individual late last week. He is Toby Twining, who is now 59 and a New York City musician. According to the Houston Chronicle article,

At that time, Pressler was a youth pastor at Bethel Church in Houston; he was ousted from that position in 1978 after church officials received information about “an alleged incident,” according to a letter introduced into the court file.

If what Toby Twining alleges is true, then this scenario occurred just a year before Paul Pressler and Paige Patterson masterminded the takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention.

The Houston Chronicle article, entitled More men accuse former Texas judge, Baptist leader of sexual misconduct, names another accuser, Brooks Schott. (see excerpt below)

Brooks Schott, 27, now a lawyer in Washington state, says in an affidavit that he resigned his position at Pressler’s former law firm after Pressler in 2016 invited Schott to get into a hot tub with him naked. He also accuses Jared Woodfill, Pressler’s longtime law partner and the head of the Harris County Republican Party until 2014, of failing to prevent Pressler’s sexual advances toward him and others, which Schott says were well-known among the firm, the documents state.

Here is a screen shot from Brooks’ affidavit, which can be accessed via the Houston Chronicle article, along with Toby Twinings’ affidavit. Brooks Schott stated:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/More-men-accuse-former-Texas-judge-Baptist-12831892.php

This is highly disturbing! How many people may have known of Pressler’s ‘alleged’ predatory behavior through the years?  Shame on anyone who has been complicit in covering up criminal behavior!

When news of a lawsuit against Paul Pressler broke last year, the The Texas Monitor published an article entitled “Worst kept secret in Houston: Defamation lawsuit emerges against Pressler, Woodfill.” In the wake of that lawsuit filed on behalf of Gareld Duane Rollins, Daniel Shea (Rollins’ attorney) told The Texas Monitor (in an exclusive interview):

“I’m getting a lot of responses from a lot of people”

Attorney Shea went on to state:

“If any victims decide they want to be added to the suit that can be done..

The Texas Monitor article further states:

“Shea had strong words for the 87-year-old Pressler, calling his alleged molestations the “worst kept secret in Houston.”

“He’s been very blatant and very careless over the years running after young boys and picking them up from these various church youth Bible study groups,” Shea said.

We found the comment section of this Texas Monitor very revealing. Here are some thought-provoking screen shots.

https://texasmonitor.org/paul-pressler-jared-woodfill-defamation-suit/

https://texasmonitor.org/paul-pressler-jared-woodfill-defamation-suit/Another Texas Monitor article, Lawsuit alleges decades-long molestation by former Texas lawmaker, has some disturbing comments (see screen shots below).

https://texasmonitor.org/paul-pressler-lawsuit-alleges-decades-long-molestation/#comment-6780

https://texasmonitor.org/paul-pressler-lawsuit-alleges-decades-long-molestation/#comment-6780

https://texasmonitor.org/paul-pressler-lawsuit-alleges-decades-long-molestation/#comment-6780


https://texasmonitor.org/paul-pressler-lawsuit-alleges-decades-long-molestation/#comment-6780

We will be following these developments very closely and will provide timely updates. In the meantime, we would appreciate your sharing your thoughts and praying for those who have allegedly been hurt. Pray for their courage to come forward!


Comments

Paul Pressler’s ‘Alleged’ Molestations – Worst Kept Secret in Houston? Two More Accusers Come Forward — 278 Comments

  1. Anybody who preys on young boys or girls needs to be removed from all positions of authority permanently and reported to the authorities for their crimes. Even if they appear to get away with it, God sees it all and He has made His views clear in Matthew 18.

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  2. Thanks for another important post, TWW. From the post:

    From the “Family Friend” December 28, 2017, 11:53pm

    “… I have been in the family home over the years. Even when I was a teen, his relations with young men seemed very odd. But he was the king of the castle, and no one dared to question his ‘Christian’ methods.”

    The Church is God’s castle. Church people need to step up. This type of predatory pervert “king” and his methods should have no affiliation with God’s people, with any children, with any persons, for that matter.

    Leadership = do the right thing, certainly in regard to children. No hand wave, no dismissal. Minors are completely out of their element with this type of “king in his castle”. For example, the poor kid at the Club froze, terrified. The boy had no idea, until he figured out what this church-sanctioned “king in his castle” was up to, and he was already trapped. Betrayal. Tricked, and the “king” used the church to find trusting victims.

    Time to dethrone the predatory “king”.

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  3. Ken P. wrote:

    I finished reading the article. Now I REALLY can’t sleep.

    Too bad the folks who put up the stained glass window in this predator’s honor can’t sleep. They are the ones who should be losing sleep, as well as their positions.

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  4. Note the theme of people not wanting to take down a man of importance and a movement. It’s not like we’ve seen anything like in the comments section in recent days…

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  5. This comment is astounding:

    “I also told a Baptist leader about it, and got a response that the cause of Biblical inerrancy was so important that he didn’t want to jeopardize the conservative resurgence.”
    ____________________________________________________________
    “For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness;
    with you, evil people are not welcome.
    The arrogant cannot stand
    in your presence.
    You hate all who do wrong;
    you destroy those who tell lies.
    The bloodthirsty and deceitful”
    -Psalm 5:4-6

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  6. ishy wrote:

    This comment is astounding:

    “I also told a Baptist leader about it, and got a response that the cause of Biblical inerrancy was so important that he didn’t want to jeopardize the conservative resurgence.”

    IMO,They had to TAKEOVER the SBC and it did not matter if any of their leaders were immoral. The fruits of the TAKEOVER are quiet evident in the SBC today.

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  7. Forrest wrote:

    Anybody who preys on young boys or girls needs to be removed from all positions of authority permanently and reported to the authorities for their crimes. Even if they appear to get away with it, God sees it all and He has made His views clear in Matthew 18.

    The sad part Pressler is in his 80’s.

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  8. My deceased father, while not a intellectual giant, but liked practical truism, much like Yogi Berra ( baseball was my fathers life). Anyway, one of these truisms was: look out, “what ever the preacher preaches the most about, he is probably guitly of !”
    I wonder how often the “conservative resurgence” has preached against child molestation, and homosexuality?

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  9. It angers me that SBC funds are having to be spent in defense of this lawsuit but as it starts to appear that there was a systemic cover-up of Pressler’s behavior, it makes sense.

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  10. ishy wrote:

    You hate all who do wrong;
    you destroy those who tell lies.

    Get this one printed up and sent to the ‘biblical inerrancy’ crowd.

    It seems the leadership was all dirty. Maybe current folks should consider that the fruit of that might be spoiled as well?

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  11. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    I knew that some dirty old men spearheaded the bfm2k, but I had no idea they were this dirty.

    Remember, Al Mohler was also on the revision team for the unnecessary revision of the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000. This was the greatest compromise of mainline Southern Baptist belief and practice in over 150 years! BFM2000 essentially opened the door for reformed theology to become the default in SBC life, contrary to what millions of Southern Baptist believe – it has underpinned the trend toward Calvinism in the denomination.

    At the time, many Southern Baptists were startled at some of the revisions … many SBC churches chose not to adopt the revision, opting to keep the 1963 version as their statement of faith. I’ve wondered why certain committee members surrendered so easily to these changes. Perhaps they compromised because one or more of the committee members had dirt on prominent leader(s) of the Conservative Resurgence (e.g. Pressler)? Certainly, it has been dirty business ever since, as the new reformers take over the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America by stealth and deception.

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  12. FW Rez wrote:

    Paige Patterson’s plausible deniability of any awareness of Pressler’s lewd behavior patterns is quickly dissipating.

    This is likely why the SBC would not bother to step in at our former SBC / 9 Marks affiliated church when the pastor was arrested for soliciting prostitutes! By the way, the remnant that stayed at the church wanted their “King” back and he remains in the pulpit. Shame.
    https://www.whio.com/news/xenia-pastor-guilty-trying-hire-prostitute/Gfzuv3ZFPZQSVB5EZOAVLJ/

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  13. FW Rez wrote:

    Paige Patterson’s plausible deniability of any awareness of Pressler’s lewd behavior patterns is quickly dissipating.

    Look for Patterson to retire soon, one step ahead of the axe. The heat is being turned up too high in the kitchen.

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  14. Augustine wrote:

    This is likely why the SBC would not bother to step in at our former SBC / 9 Marks affiliated church when the pastor was arrested for soliciting prostitutes!

    The SBC tends not to get involved in local church matters….. until they allow a woman in the pulpit.

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  15. DEEBS – I want to pause here and thank you for your dedicated efforts to inform and warn the Church about these matters. I know you work tirelessly to represent the least of these who have been abused in one form or another by church leaders. You do that with no compensation nor standing ovation. My wife just said that you remind her of the women who supported Jesus out of their private means (Luke 8:3). You have been raised up for such a (rotten) time as this. Thank you for staying focused in the midst of weeping and gnashing of teeth from the followers of those you expose.

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  16. @ mot:
    This is the fundamental question…… It ia apparently OK to be “ultaconservative” on the outside, and be depraved in secret? Saying it is OK to abuse little boys should not even be in the same senta e as being “liberal”..

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  17. Max wrote:

    mot wrote:
    But Max, the TAKEOVER got rid of all the “liberals”.
    Well, this bunch has certainly redefined “conservative” in my mind.

    Well said. We have heard about this situation for the last 9 years of blogging. It was all word of mouth and no-one felt comfortable. going on the record. I get it. This guy was powerful and people were afraid today anything. I never thought anything would come of it.

    I am so grateful to all oft he brave people out there coming out of the closet after abuse and speaking the truth. Times are changing and people are listening now. I am so glad that I lived to see the beginning of change in this area.

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  18. Max wrote:

    it has underpinned the trend toward Calvinism in the denomination.

    Max: Do you see a relationship between Authoritarianism and Calvinism? I agree with you that Calvinism has increased under BFM2K. I also think that BFM2K has contributed a lot to a general rise in Authoritarianism, making the SBC more palatable to Fundamentalists of all ilks. I’m just not sure of the correlation between the two. Honest question. I always respect your opinion.

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  19. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    This is the fundamental question…… It ia apparently OK to be “ultaconservative” on the outside, and be depraved in secret? Saying it is OK to abuse little boys should not even be in the same senta e as being “liberal”..

    I cannot understand how he could do all that stuff for the SBC, getting rid of *liberals* while accosting boys. What is broken in his soul? How many people stood by and said nothing?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  20. Max wrote:

    DEEBS – I want to pause here and thank you for your dedicated efforts to inform and warn the Church about these matters. I know you work tirelessly to represent the least of these who have been abused in one form or another by church leaders. You do that with no compensation nor standing ovation. My wife just said that you remind her of the women who supported Jesus out of their private means (Luke 8:3). You have been raised up for such a (rotten) time as this. Thank you for staying focused in the midst of weeping and gnashing of teeth from the followers of those you expose.

    Amen!! Articles like this help me to make sense of how my denomination was hijacked and gives me validation of my suspicions that those behind the changes weren’t always has idealistic as they wanted us to believe.

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  21. FW Rez wrote:

    I agree with you that Calvinism has increased under BFM2K. I also think that BFM2K has contributed a lot to a general rise in Authoritarianism, making the SBC more palatable to Fundamentalists of all ilks. I’m just not sure of the correlation between the two.

    I don’t think Patterson, at al. had any idea they were bringing in the age of the New Calvinists in the SBC. I think they wanted to be the ones in change. It seems to me they didn’t plan as far ahead as Mohler did.

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  22. Max wrote:

    Look for Patterson to retire soon, one step ahead of the axe. The heat is being turned up too high in the kitchen.

    Ah, but then a Mohlerite will attain his position. Which is the lesser of the two evils?

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  23. dee wrote:

    I cannot understand how he could do all that stuff for the SBC, getting rid of *liberals* while accosting boys. What is broken in his soul? How many people stood by and said nothing?

    I don’t see how people in his inner circle could not know what was going on ……. But then Patterson protected a sexual predator for years.

    Yeah, these are the people who spearheaded the “conservative resurgence”!!!!

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  24. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    I don’t see how people in his inner circle could not know what was going on ……. But then Patterson protected a sexual predator for years.

    I have always wondered why Patterson and Pressler have been untouchable to this point in time. The plan for the TAKEOVER began almost 50 years ago.

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  25. dee wrote:

    I am so grateful to all oft he brave people out there coming out of the closet after abuse and speaking the truth. Times are changing and people are listening now. I am so glad that I lived to see the beginning of change in this area.

    I also have an infinite amount of respect for for those who are coming out of the closet. It may sound a bit strange, and hard to understand, but I feel very little sympathy for them. It’s hard for me to feel sympathetic toward warriors, and these people have turned into warriors for truth!

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  26. FW Rez wrote:

    I agree with you that Calvinism has increased under BFM2K. I also think that BFM2K has contributed a lot to a general rise in Authoritarianism, making the SBC more palatable to Fundamentalists of all ilks. I’m just not sure of the correlation between the two.

    I think if there is a connection it is a reverse causation one…

    IE, some of these guys are switching things up to take control. My regular presby church/elder board doesn’t act like we see.

    I also think if you look only at Calvinism you are missing all the authoritarianism that is simply about controlling women and obviously for some of these guys, children, so they can use and abuse them. I’m sure there are many who bought into this sincerely and with no ill intent and didn’t realize what people like Pressler were about. But there was a dark side here too.

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  27. mot wrote:

    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    I don’t see how people in his inner circle could not know what was going on ……. But then Patterson protected a sexual predator for years.

    I have always wondered why Patterson and Pressler have been untouchable to this point in time. The plan for the TAKEOVER began almost 50 years ago.

    I think we are seeing why. Joel Gregory wrote about the infamous airport meeting with all the big cheeses back in the CR. It was all about Paige Patterson. He was always one step ahead of the firing ax but always landed on his feet. I used to joke that he probably knew where all the bodies were buried.

    I don’t think it’s a joke anymore.

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  28. @ Augustine:
    The $64,000 question. Giles is very good. Loved his books on ESS/comp.

    I am not about forcing people to change or telling them what kind of a church they are allowed to go to. But I’ve always wondered why people (women) so willingly fell for the comp focus as the “Gospel”.

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  29. I read this stuff and think back to the church I grew up in during the 60s-mid70s. There were a lot of rumors about the pastor, especially after he invited another pastor to move in with him and they both came down with something that turned out to be an STD. There were rumors about boys and trips, and my mom stopped encouraging me to attend youth group. I never knew if it was true or not, but I had very little resistance from my parents when I started attending a more supervised youth group in a larger church with co-ed, adult leadership. The pastor died a decade later. I am afraid a lot has happened in many churches with staff, and we will probably never be aware of all the stories.

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  30. Lydia wrote:

    I am not about forcing people to change or telling them what kind of a church they are allowed to go to. But I’ve always wondered why people (women) so willingly fell for the comp focus as the “Gospel”.

    I think you have a lot of people who grow up in it and it take a while to say ‘wait a minute’. Stronger question is why adults go along.

    I think so many people are scared of being ‘liberal’ they can’t think outside of their denominational box.

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  31. @ mot:

    He has little power except his fiefdom at SWBTS with the windows and fancy retirement McMansion. And he deftly played both sides of the cal/non Cal divide a bit over the years.

    I also think they will have to carry Mohler out on a guerney at SBTS, too.

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  32. Linn wrote:

    a more supervised youth group in a larger church with co-ed, adult leadership

    I don’t have anything against single leaders, but my youth group was led by a married couple and looking at all the issues in youth groups, it seems that may have been wise.

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  33. @ Lea:
    Depends on how you Define liberal. A classical liberal does not believe in big over-reaching micromanaging regulatory government.

    I have no idea what it is in Christendom. I believe that scripture teaches mutuality which is liberal to some. But I also believe that churches have the right to operate how they wish. If we don’t believe that, we need to go back and take a closer look at the Civil Rights Movement.

    Clearly designated labels just aren’t working for me anymore.

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  34. @ Max:
    Amen! While I don’t post often, I read nearly every day to stay abreast of the abuses in the church. The Wartburg blog is a valuable resource for those who have been abused; spiritually, emotionally, or physically.

    Thank you Dee and Deb. May God richly bless you for your compassion for them as well as your endeavors to bring justice to the perps!

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  35. Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Depends on how you Define liberal. A classical liberal does not believe in big over-reaching micromanaging regulatory government.

    I’m not talking about politics, just the church. Although ‘liberal’ churches do often support liberal politics in some fashion. I would rather not hear about politics in church, but that doesn’t seem to happen in either direction.

    And in practice, it seems to mean ‘doesn’t treat women like baby factories who should obey their husbands and be seen and not heard’. At least, that’s my perception.

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  36. @ Lydia:
    Regardless of what liberal actually means in church spaces, it is a word used to keep people in line at this point. IE, don’t go to that church because they are ‘liberal’. They also tie it in with biblical inerrancy.

    I think it’s one reason women stay.

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  37. Max wrote:

    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
    I knew that some dirty old men spearheaded the bfm2k, but I had no idea they were this dirty.
    Remember, Al Mohler was also on the revision team for the unnecessary revision of the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000. This was the greatest compromise of mainline Southern Baptist belief and practice in over 150 years! BFM2000 essentially opened the door for reformed theology to become the default in SBC life, contrary to what millions of Southern Baptist believe – it has underpinned the trend toward Calvinism in the denomination.
    At the time, many Southern Baptists were startled at some of the revisions … many SBC churches chose not to adopt the revision, opting to keep the 1963 version as their statement of faith. I’ve wondered why certain committee members surrendered so easily to these changes. Perhaps they compromised because one or more of the committee members had dirt on prominent leader(s) of the Conservative Resurgence (e.g. Pressler)? Certainly, it has been dirty business ever since, as the new reformers take over the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America by stealth and deception.

    Yes, and the reaping what they have sown continues. I’m just sick….

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  38. @ Lea:
    This church was very liberal theologically, but the people had a complete trust of the pastor. They couldn’t imagine not being able to trust him. I was a tween who didn’t figure out most of it until I was an adult, and I had totally lost contact with the church.

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  39. @ ishy:
    The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, as told by the “Conservative Resurgence”

    Lucy: Aslan, you have to save him, he’s our brother.

    Aslan: Back off little girl, I have an important battle to fight. Edmund picked his side, and he’s totally depraved anyway. His death will bring glory to the Emperor over the Sea, whose perfect justice is made manifest by the suffering of sinners. THERE IS A WAR GOING ON. All that matters is that we win. So go learn a weapon and stop bothering me with your little family issues. Sometimes some little people have to die so that the war can be won.

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  40. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Ah, but then a Mohlerite will attain his position. Which is the lesser of the two evils?

    Well, Calvinization of the SBC is pretty much a done deal at this point, so I’m not sure one is lesser than the other. Except for individual churches staying true to SBC non-Calvinist belief and practice (the prevailing theology for the past 150 years), most SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house) are now controlled by New Calvinists. As time goes on, the generational shift to reformed pastors coming out of the seminaries will take the rest of the churches down that road.

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  41. @ Lea:
    But many of the inerrancy folks are now social justice Warriors. Also the big Cal/non Cal divide in the SBC put the inerrancy issue on the back burner for good reason. Things have changed over last 30-40 years. And if the money keeps flowing it will change drastically again and again.

    My view is we can learn from all this. Things are rarely what they seem. Beware of falling for rally cries which usually have hidden agendas. I am to the point where I will discuss ideas, agendas, issues, etc but won’t defend groups or institutions. I’ve lived long enough to be snookered too many times.

    I am to the point that if I ever start attending a church again, I probably won’t defend it or promote it. Why? Because we really have no idea what’s going on from headquarters to the office during the week.

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  42. ishy wrote:

    I don’t think Patterson, at al. had any idea they were bringing in the age of the New Calvinists in the SBC. I think they wanted to be the ones in change. It seems to me they didn’t plan as far ahead as Mohler did.

    Patterson was too busy killing wildlife in Africa to pay much attention to SBC’s theological shift. I’ll give him this – Mohler is an excellent strategist.

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  43. Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    But I’ve always wondered why people (women) so willingly fell for the comp focus as the “Gospel”.

    This is the kind of article they end up having to write when women’s role are so narrowly defined and prescribed:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/dont-sideline-women-church-plant/

    Oh yeah. The old “comp is the gospel” isn’t great for planting churches that appeal to millennials. So they don’t teach that anymore and now invite women to “meetings”.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  44. FW Rez wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Look for Patterson to retire soon, one step ahead of the axe.
    Looks like work is progressing nicely on his retirement “apartment”:

    Not a Furtick Mansion?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  45. Lydia wrote:

    I am to the point that if I ever start attending a church again, I probably won’t defend it or promote it. Why? Because we really have no idea what’s going on from headquarters to the office during the week.

    I used to tell folks I witnessed to in the workplace and elsewhere that they were “safe” to attend a Southern Baptist Church, indicating that Southern Baptists were a “people of the Word” who discipled new Christians well and that it was a denomination which preached the Gospel of Christ for ALL people around the world. I can’t do that any longer in good conscience.

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  46. Lydia wrote:

    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    Like Mahaney. It seems position and title cover a lot of sin.

    RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
    (Including SEXUAL Privileges over your Inferiors.)

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  47. @ Lydia:
    You know what else is interesting? I have come across a few Millennial women who have started attending Neo Cal plants who have never heard of the word “complementarian”.

    So I have been pondering that as someone at their age that’s all I heard in Christian circles. Including egalitarian ones. It was the dominating issue. Hmm.

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  48. Max wrote:

    Patterson was too busy killing wildlife in Africa to pay much attention to SBC’s theological shift.

    Man-Eaters of Kumaon — the Role-Playing Game!

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  49. Note that Pressler’s “conquests” were in their teens — EHEBEPHILIA, not Pedophilia.

    And same-sex; now same-sex pedos identify (and arouse) as straight (keying on the pre-pubescent males’ lack of masculine sexual characteristics), but same-sex Ehebephiles (going after post-puberty jail bait) identify (and arouse) as gay.

    Guess like the Sultans of the Turkish Empire, HOMOSEXUALITY is also a Privilege of Rank.
    (If you’re the Superior one on top penetrating an Inferior, that makes it OK. That’s the usual workaround for the strong & powerful in a society/religion with a homosexuality taboo.)

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  50. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    I am to the point that if I ever start attending a church again, I probably won’t defend it or promote it. Why? Because we really have no idea what’s going on from headquarters to the office during the week.
    I used to tell folks I witnessed to in the workplace and elsewhere that they were “safe” to attend a Southern Baptist Church, indicating that Southern Baptists were a “people of the Word” who discipled new Christians well and that it was a denomination which preached the Gospel of Christ for ALL people around the world. I can’t do that any longer in good conscience.

    Funny thing, Max, was in Calfornia, my nevk of the woods, the SBC was considered more liberal than many of the General or Regular Cobsevative Bapstists, but not as liberal as the American Baptists. Years later has me shaking my head. I tried a baptist church a couple of months ago and was disappointed. I’m with Lydia and doubtful I can find a church ever.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  51. The depredation is bad enough but parents not coming to the defense of their children makes this travesty even worse.

    Many people knew what this man was doing. God d*mn them all.

    You cannot trust these closed communities.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  52. dee wrote:

    I cannot understand how he could do all that stuff for the SBC, getting rid of *liberals* while accosting boys. What is broken in his soul? How many people stood by and said nothing?

    I think it’s just plain old human failing, and by no means confined to Baptists.
    There were thousands of good German Lutherans who also said and did nothing when the cattle cars were loaded with Jews going East.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  53. Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    But many of the inerrancy folks are now social justice Warriors.

    Yes, I noticed. Of course, that’s only where race is concerned. Women still don’t matter.

    It’s all marketing to me. Do any of them really ‘mean’ any of it?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  54. Max wrote:

    Patterson was too busy killing wildlife in Africa to pay much attention to SBC’s theological shift. I’ll give him this – Mohler is an excellent strategist.

    I remember that very first time I went to Wake Forest and toured SEBTS. As Patterson gave his meeting pitch, I just stood there totally creeped out by all the giant dead animal heads looking at me.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  55. Lea wrote:

    Of course, that’s only where race is concerned. Women still don’t matter.

    It’s all marketing to me. Do any of them really ‘mean’ any of it?

    Sure, as long as they are men!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  56. Linn wrote:

    @ Lea:
    This church was very liberal theologically, but the people had a complete trust of the pastor. They couldn’t imagine not being able to trust him.

    That is a failing common to humanity, I think. We’ve talked before about how con-men work I think – once you have believed a person, trusted them, it takes a lot to realize you were wrong. It’s not fun. I’ve been there, although not in church.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  57. Lydia wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    You know what else is interesting? I have come across a few Millennial women who have started attending Neo Cal plants who have never heard of the word “complementarian”.

    I never heard that word before I started hearing this blog (but I’m a wee bit older than a millennial).

    The concept I’ve heard, but mostly the ‘soft’ version that used to be more common (no women pastors and husband gets tie breaker vote, basically). I never heard it is a huge focus growing up.

    Even that mild version I cannot accept as an adult. So I don’t do the SBC thing.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  58. Lydia wrote:

    It was the dominating issue. Hmm.

    I honestly thought growing up and for a long time that only scary little cultish churches believed some of the stuff I’ve heard coming out of SBC/TGC/Etc. It’s been mind boggling to hear, but good to know whatever instinct kept me away from the SBC and other such churches before I knew about it was sound.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  59. @ Lea:
    I heard it at Seeker megas that were not SBC. It was also big in some Methodist, Presbyterian, etc churches. In the eighties and nineties there was this huge speaking circuit for comp. Marriage stuff. Family stuff.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  60. Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    But many of the inerrancy folks are now social justice Warriors.

    Yes, I noticed. Of course, that’s only where race is concerned. Women still don’t matter.

    It’s all marketing to me. Do any of them really ‘mean’ any of it?

    It’s all about recruiting new people. Russ Moore never mentions his rabid patriarchy in WaPo OP’s. But he mentions everything else cultural. He is rebranding. I think it’s going to get even more interesting.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  61. Lydia wrote:

    Russ Moore never mentions his rabid patriarchy in WaPo OP’s. But he mentions everything else cultural. He is rebranding. I think it’s going to get even more interesting.

    It’s scary but freeing when you know people can’t be trusted.

    Go with the evidence. Trust what they do, not what they say. Watch. Wait. IDK.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  62. Lydia wrote:

    Russ Moore never mentions his rabid patriarchy in WaPo OP’s.

    He’s become big enough now that he can start distancing himself from those who put him in power to appear sociologically-correct … he no longer needs to be theologically-correct. He’s been a shrewd theo-politician to date, covering his religious stripes well.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  63. Now it appears why the SBC would not entertain the adoption of an anti child abuse program. I find it hard to believe that the “leaders” had no clue that this man had this proclivity. A perverted child predator the head of the “resurgence”. No one ever heard a rumor?
    I go from being appalled to wanting to cry. This organization says it is all about the gospel. God have mercy. Repent SBC!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  64. Ken A wrote:

    A perverted child predator the head of the “resurgence”. No one ever heard a rumor?

    “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” for the good of a Christian denomination?!!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  65. Max wrote:

    Ken A wrote:

    A perverted child predator the head of the “resurgence”. No one ever heard a rumor?

    “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” for the good of a Christian denomination?!!

    Max: These “leaders” have destroyed the SBC IMO.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  66. Lea wrote:

    Yes, I noticed. Of course, that’s only where race is concerned. Women still don’t matter.

    Subjugation of and control over women is the last bastion of white male superiority.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  67. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I wonder if these teen boys fell into the category of poor, fatherless, etc. That was a big issue highlighted in the movie Spotlight when it came to priests and who they typically targeted and why. It is much more dangerous to Target teens from strong families who have your back.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  68. @ Ken A:

    Well, read the article and links. Apparently, their were rumors and a few complaints, but it was covered up and hushed up for 40 years. So, there are many other people complicit in this sicko’s hidden life.

    To all this man’s victims, I’m sorry for what you have endured in life while Pressler looked to have an upright, glorious life. YOU, VICTIMS, are the real HEROS.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  69. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I wonder if these teen boys fell into the category of poor, fatherless, etc. That was a big issue highlighted in the movie Spotlight when it came to priests and who they typically targeted and why. It is much more dangerous to Target teens from strong families who have your back. Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Russ Moore never mentions his rabid patriarchy in WaPo OP’s. But he mentions everything else cultural. He is rebranding. I think it’s going to get even more interesting.

    It’s scary but freeing when you know people can’t be trusted.

    Go with the evidence. Trust what they do, not what they say. Watch. Wait. IDK.

    Totally agree. And as my mother used to always tell me, everyone puts their pants on the same way. IOW, stop with the idolizing.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  70. Lydia wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I wonder if these teen boys fell into the category of poor, fatherless, etc. That was a big issue highlighted in the movie Spotlight when it came to priests and who they typically targeted and why. It is much more dangerous to Target teens from strong families who have your back

    Even more dangerous if the families are not only strong, but RICH and POWERFUL.

    Just like a Roman Patrician with his sex slaves (it’s only adultery if it’s with a free person), target the Family-less, Poor, and (most important) POWERLESS. WIWA ROMA!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  71. Lydia wrote:

    It’s all about recruiting new people. Russ Moore never mentions his rabid patriarchy in WaPo OP’s. But he mentions everything else cultural. He is rebranding.

    oceania has always been at peace with eurasia, comrades.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  72. Lydia wrote:

    And as my mother used to always tell me, everyone puts their pants on the same way.

    Except, of course, they don’t. There are religious laws regarding how to put on clothes. But within any one particular group, I suppose, the maxim would hold.

    I say this because not everybody does put on their pants the same way metaphorically either. Whether it would be important how one put on one’s pants would certainly be divisive though.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  73. Every time I read about Paul Pressler I just remember how we had to keep silent about the real cause of death for one of my law school classmates, who was a clerk on the 14th Circuit Court of Appeals. That was so he didn’t end up an object lesson in one of Pressler’s bloviations.

    And now it looks very much like Pressler was molesting boys. I haven’t lived in Texas for almost 25 years, but he was quite the mover and shaker back then. People knew who he was. *shakes head* The rocks are being overturned. That the Houston Chronicle would run such a big story is important.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  74. Lydia wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    I missed the religious laws. I certainly hope I’m doing it right.

    Lyds, I think people ‘like us’ are supposed to be putting on skirts, not pants! ; ^ )

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  75. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Look for Patterson to retire soon, one step ahead of the axe.
    Looks like work is progressing nicely on his retirement “apartment”:

    Not a Furtick Mansion?

    I can’t find any mention of the square footage of the Patterson house [sorry, it’s called “the Baptist Heritage Center” in Forth Worth], but the cost appears to be $2.5 million. So it’s a Furtick-level structure.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  76. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ okrapod:
    I missed the religious laws. I certainly hope I’m doing it right.
    Lyds, I think people ‘like us’ are supposed to be putting on skirts, not pants! ; ^

    Years ago I spent a few months in the UAE, where most (female) skin needs to be covered. A local lady lifted up the bottom of my long “dress” once and saw I didn’t have pants on underneath, then gave me a pair because it wasn’t good enough to be wearing only one or the other!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  77. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    I wonder how often the “conservative resurgence” has preached against child molestation, and homosexuality?

    I’m not sure, but if it’s anything like they (used to) speak out against heterosexuals having pre-marital sex but don’t actually support life long adult celibates (such as myself), it doesn’t amount to squat.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  78. Forrest wrote:

    Anybody who preys on young boys or girls needs to be removed from all positions of authority permanently and reported to the authorities for their crimes. Even if they appear to get away with it, God sees it all and He has made His views clear in Matthew 18.

    I agree, and just IMHO, it adds an extra special layer of ickiness that this guy’s habit (as stated several times over in the various articles and reader comments in the screen caps) chose to prey on the young men right after Bible studies.

    It’s bad enough for people to sexually prey on others, but to do so in the context of Christianity, Bible studies, or in the name of God, is (at least for me), even ten times more creepy and disgusting.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  79. ishy wrote:

    This comment is astounding:
    “I also told a Baptist leader about it, and got a response that the cause of Biblical inerrancy was so important that he didn’t want to jeopardize the conservative resurgence.”

    Yes. Often, a doctrine, famous person, etc, is considered more important than victims.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  80. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    I can’t find any mention of the square footage of the Patterson house [sorry, it’s called “the Baptist Heritage Center” in Forth Worth], but the cost appears to be $2.5 million. So it’s a Furtick-level structure.

    Curious as to how much access the Pattersons will have to Seminary staff resources? Security and grounds are a given. Administrative Assistants? Housekeeping? Chefs? Concierge?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  81. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    I can’t find any mention of the square footage of the Patterson house [sorry, it’s called “the Baptist Heritage Center” in Forth Worth]

    It appears that the Pattersons will live in the Baptist Heritage Center as “theologians-in-residence” upon retirement.

    “In September 2017, the trustees graciously offered for President Paige Patterson and his wife to reside as the first theologians-in-residence so they can use the library resources to complete writing projects for the benefit of Southwestern Seminary and the SBC. Thereafter, the president of Southwestern Seminary approves who resides in the short-term theologian-in-residence apartment. Although he does not have any immediate plans to retire, Patterson accepted the offer with the caveat that the next president invites him and his wife to reside there while working on writing assignments.”

    https://swbts.edu/news/releases/southwestern-serve-open-house-baptist-history/

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  82. FW Rez wrote:

    Curious as to how much access the Pattersons will have to Seminary staff resources? Security and grounds are a given. Administrative Assistants? Housekeeping? Chefs? Concierge?

    Whatever they get, they couldn’t have done it without Paul Pressler!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  83. FW Rez wrote:

    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
    I can’t find any mention of the square footage of the Patterson house [sorry, it’s called “the Baptist Heritage Center” in Forth Worth], but the cost appears to be $2.5 million. So it’s a Furtick-level structure.
    Curious as to how much access the Pattersons will have to Seminary staff resources? Security and grounds are a given. Administrative Assistants? Housekeeping? Chefs? Concierge?

    https://baptistblog.wordpress.com/2018/03/24/southwestern-seminary-plunders-faculty-retirement-repayment-to-muzzled-oxen-long-overdue/

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  84. ION: Fitba’

    So: Brighton and Spurs drew 1-1 this evening. This is a useful result from Liverpool’s POV; it means Spurs remain 2 points behind us after having used up both their games in hand, so we remain in 3rd place. Two more wins will guarantee entry into next season’s GiveUsYerMoney Cup.

    IHTIH

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  85. Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ Lea:
    But many of the inerrancy folks are now social justice Warriors.
    Yes, I noticed. Of course, that’s only where race is concerned. Women still don’t matter.
    It’s all marketing to me. Do any of them really ‘mean’ any of it?

    Not in my opinion. That is what I have learned. Sigh. We have made it into something it was never meant to be, IMO, and they have to not only keep our attention but relate to new generations to attract them. It just seems like drama after a while. (Doing my Hemingway impression-nada, nada, nada.)

    I read this today and wept. It’s just too much. Note the logo bottom far right on the second picture—

    https://paulspassingthoughts.com/2018/04/16/when-is-enough-enough-texas-church-massacre-exposes-the-black-heart-of-church/

    But Jesus Christ is not like any of it, IMO.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  86. Daisy wrote:

    I agree, and just IMHO, it adds an extra special layer of ickiness that this guy’s habit (as stated several times over in the various articles and reader comments in the screen caps) chose to prey on the young men right after Bible studies.

    That anything like “Making Long Prayers for Justification”, or just concentration of Easy Prey with their guard down?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  87. Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    But many of the inerrancy folks are now social justice Warriors.

    I’m in California.
    After enough run-ins with Social Justice Warriors (especially those in positions of power), I’d trust Littlefinger from Game of Thrones before I would any of them.

    It’s all Virtue Signalling/Rubbing their Righteousness in us Lowborn’s faces, with no regard for any collateral damage.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  88. Daisy wrote:

    Yes. Often, a doctrine, famous person, etc, is considered more important than victims.

    Just ask the Killing Fields of Cambodia.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  89. Jack wrote:

    The depredation is bad enough but parents not coming to the defense of their children makes this travesty even worse.

    Either:
    1) They were really really clueless (it happens).
    2) They were too wrapped up in themselves or their own problems.
    3) They were “groomed” by the predator and/or The System.
    4) They were in awe of God’s Shadow Upon Earth and could not believe otherwise.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  90. Augustine wrote:

    Why have we tolerated complementarism with such shallow and imposed textual “Interpretation?”

    Because the promoters of comp doctrine found a large demographic of shallow young restless and reformed gullible enough to swallow it. This teaching and other aberrations of faith have produced lots of money for New Calvinist leaders in book sales, conferences, and other angles of getting in the pockets of YRR. There is no effective accountability system in place for church leaders who bring false teachings into the American church.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  91. Marie wrote:

    I am praying great comfort and healing for the victims and true repentance from those at fault.

    Confession must precede repentance. We have not heard that yet from Judge Pressler, Bill Hybels, and assorted other “Christian” leaders. Heck, they probably think ‘they’ are the victims since they didn’t get to retire with honor!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  92. Enough of this sicko is now been confirmed publically that I have NO respect for SBC leadership. To me, “above reproach” includes NOT taking little boys, by yourself, to saunas after “bible study”… or sleeping in beds with them… let alone the more “serious” allegations. I just can not get head around this…

    But the worst thing to me is not this “sicko”, we will always have to deal with pedos the issues is the other SBC leadership…. it reminds me Penn State… but, the smug selfrighteousness of typical fundies, and the “stained” glass which proves their arogance, makes me want to throw up…

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  93. This piece inspired me to add the phrase ‘persistent & enduring rumours, particularly where they seem not to have been investigated fully historically’ into a safeguarding review at work, under the section of what things employees may deem suspicious enough to report about co-workers or others of influence in our organisation or in those we work closely with. It is now an reportable category in my organisation.

    Thanks Deebs.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  94. @ Ricco:
    The whole “but inerrancy” and “but the liberals” is so disgusting to me. The ends DO NOT justify the means. I don’t agree with the ends of the conservative resurgence anymore, but even if I did, the DO NOT excuse someone’s abusive actions. Why I realize now is that these things need to be exposed, and if that causes an institution to crumble, then that is what needed to happen. I don’t want to tear things down just to watch them burn, but protection of the innocent should ALWAYS come before protecting an institution or a “big man”

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  95. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    ION: Fitba’

    Can you explain “relegation” to me? I listen to the BBC and right now all the talk is about being clear of the relegation zone in the various leagues. You can assume we don’t do relegation here in America.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  96. Has it been noted that Steve Bradley was on staff at Houston’s Second Baptist Church for nearly a decade and a half before becoming pastor in 1993 of Woodlands Parkway Baptist (now rebranded ‘Stonebridge’) Church?

    https://www.woodlandsonline.com/npps/story.cfm?nppage=39841

    “Bradley serves as the senior pastor of StoneBridge located in The Woodlands. Prior to moving to The Woodlands in 1993, he served at Second Baptist Church in Houston for 14 years.”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  97. Lydia. wrote:

    I read this today and wept. It’s just too much. Note the logo bottom far right on the second picture—

    Why does the peasantry still put up with all this chicanery?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  98. Muff Potter wrote:

    Why does the peasantry still put up with all this chicanery?

    Groomed. He groomed his victims, his community, the SBC throughout the ranks, top to bottom and back up again. To the point where he and his wife get a window, no less. Idols. When the rock star is a predatory pedophile, it says something about the entire network.

    Women can’t preach, but the hierarchy, lower-archy, and the middle-archy, can assault children.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  99. Lea wrote:

    These are the people who decided women’s roles should be minimized.

    People should really think about this.

    Lea – was this the case at Willow Creek as well?

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  100. Lea wrote:

    Regardless of what liberal actually means in church spaces

    I’m not sure if anyone know the meanings anymore, many of the liberal movements have not been very liberal and had totalitarian trappings and the conservative movements have not held to their supposed ideal either. I dispensed using the terms except as an epithet draped in irony.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  101. Daisy wrote:

    I agree, and just IMHO, it adds an extra special layer of ickiness that this guy’s habit (as stated several times over in the various articles and reader comments in the screen caps) chose to prey on the young men right after Bible studies.

    It’s bad enough for people to sexually prey on others, but to do so in the context of Christianity, Bible studies, or in the name of God, is (at least for me), even ten times more creepy and disgusting.

    Yes, sad.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  102. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    Can you explain “relegation” to me? I listen to the BBC and right now all the talk is about being clear of the relegation zone in the various leagues. You can assume we don’t do relegation here in America.

    Happy to help!

    In England and Wales (Scotland works separately here), professional fitba’ is divided into four separate league divisions. In descending order, they’re named (rather frustratingly) the Premiership, the Championship, League One and League Two – this is entirely for money reasons as they’re kind of set up separately for negotiating sponsorship. To all intents and purposes, they are (respectively) divisions 1 to 4.

    Each season, which lasts from around September through to May, every team in each division plays every other in the same division, twice: once at home and once away. A win gets three points, a draw one point, and a defeat, none (obviously). Now, finally, onto relegation.

    At the end of the season, the bottom few teams in each division are relegated to the division below, where they will play next season. In turn, they are replaced by the same number of teams who are promoted to the division above. Teams relegated from the bottom division drop out of the professional football league and into the murky waters of the semi-professional fitba’ leagues. So, the “relegation zone” is the bottom few places in each division.

    IHTIH

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  103. ION: Computering

    Whilst on the train this morning I’ve managed to get my new Apache Tomcat server up and running on my MacBook Air and even got as far as setting up users in the tomcat-users.xml file so that I can access the gui interface on localhost 8080.

    Yippee!

    Also, Scotrail’s wifi service is working on this train. Which is why I’ve been able to comment twice on Wartburg!

    Double yippee!!

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  104. This sicko was never a leader! Shame on him and anyone who participated in covering for him! Disgusting individual. I’m so tired of hearing leadership and authority these people are men who appoint themselves as such! I don’t buy into this leadership crap anymore and only follow those who show that they are worthy of it! The apostle Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. Nowhere do you see him placing himself up as some great leadership or ultimate authority. These men have people follow because a lot have in their mind that this is some great leadership, they are about titles and reputations, very foolish! I’m disgusted with the missionary parents basically served their kid up after the fact by covering it up, the parents who knew are just as bad if not worse! They loved this man more than their son, sorry but it’s true

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  105. Muff Potter wrote:

    Lydia. wrote:

    I read this today and wept. It’s just too much. Note the logo bottom far right on the second picture—

    Why does the peasantry still put up with all this chicanery?

    I guess the people whose lives were devastated at Sunderland have little choice at this point in order to receive help that donors intended for them.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  106. Ken A wrote:

    Now it appears why the SBC would not entertain the adoption of an anti child abuse program.

    If SBC had adopted such a program decades ago, complete with a pastor-sex-offender’s list, Judge Pressler may have been on that list due to his alleged transgressions as a youth pastor in the 1970’s. If you continue that string of “what-ifs” … he may not have held other church positions over his lifetime, had a successful law degree, been nominated by President Bush to serve as Director of the Office of Government Ethics, served as a Director for the National Association of Religious Broadcasters, received the Ronald Reagan Award for Lifetime Achievement, served as Director of the Southern Baptist International Mission Board and Vice President of the Southern Baptist Convention, become the architect of SBC’s Conservative Resurgence, and been immortalized in stain glass at an SBC seminary.

    Who else in SBC leadership ranks might be on that list if it existed? What other dark secrets are yet to be exposed? They seem to be coming like wildfire now … in due season, one shall reap what one has sown. Power and position blind-side only us mere mortals, but not a Holy God.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  107. John wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    These are the people who decided women’s roles should be minimized.

    People should really think about this.

    Lea – was this the case at Willow Creek as well?

    John- why are you asking questions you know the answer to?

    We are talking about a purposeful plot to change a denomination in a specific way that was orchestrated from individuals. One of whom was acting in ways completely contrary to everything he professed to believe.

    WC certainly involved hypocrisy but it was specific to an individual and church. There is no shortage of such men in Christendom, apparently.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  108. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Whilst on the train this morning I’ve managed to get my new Apache Tomcat server up and running on my MacBook

    Several years ago my company decided to do a JBOSS implementation to see how they liked it. We built and deployed one project and they decided to go completely .NET. I ended up babysitting one Tomcat instance on a long forgotten server for 15 years.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  109. JYJames wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:
    Why does the peasantry still put up with all this chicanery?
    Groomed. He groomed his victims, his community, the SBC throughout the ranks, top to bottom and back up again. To the point where he and his wife get a window, no less. Idols. When the rock star is a predatory pedophile, it says something about the entire network.
    Women can’t preach, but the hierarchy, lower-archy, and the middle-archy, can assault children.

    It says we put an awful lot of faith in people and because of that, we tend to elevate the diabolically clever or the totalitarian niceness cons. Take your pick. Both are long con disasters. In our search for “great leaders” we forget to be our own leader— as was always intended by our Lord.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  110. Thersites wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    Regardless of what liberal actually means in church spaces
    I’m not sure if anyone know the meanings anymore, many of the liberal movements have not been very liberal and had totalitarian trappings and the conservative movements have not held to their supposed ideal either. I dispensed using the terms except as an epithet draped in irony.

    Lol. Love the last sentence!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  111. Lydia wrote:

    It says we put an awful lot of faith in people and because of that, we tend to elevate the diabolically clever or the totalitarian niceness cons.

    Beware. There may be a diabolically clever and totalitarian nice guy pastoring a church near you!

    Consider how far deception might reach if not detected/discerned – see my comment at 08:56 AM this morning.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  112. @ Max:
    This is a big lesson. I am going to focus on the perp for a moment. They sought to fool a lot of people with a Jesus outfit on for decades. They were obviously able to rationalize their heinous behavior with their purported beliefs. That is diabolical in and of itself. With these types (Pressler/Hybels/etc) nothing is more important to them than legacy. (You can see it in the windows at SWBTS or the how WC is handling Hybels) Legacy is everything because they have everything else they need and more when it comes to basic life comforts and achievements. Legacy tells their world they were important.

    So they are close to the end and that legacy is in danger of being a big fat nothing burger because people find out who they really were and it was all a big con. The erasing begins to save The institutions that made them great. Chances are slim that either one will pay any sort of legal price for their abhorrent behavior but at a certain point they lived for the legacy.

    I believe there will be abundant joy some day for being a “blameless” nobody. Something to consider.

    For their victims, the story is very different.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  113. Lydia wrote:

    Pressler/Hybels … Legacy is everything

    Then they should have lived with their final chapters in mind. What a waste. History will wad up the resumes of their lives and toss them in the round file. The “yeah buts” are storming cyberspace in their defense, citing all their great achievements, but it’s all for nought when you consider their double-lives while stacking up the positives. One of Hybels’ supporters said he was the greatest Christian of the last two centuries – I personally know an obscure humble servant of the Lord at a rural church who may very well be. One of Pressler’s supporters defended his perversion saying his leadership during the Conservative Resurgence was worth it. Worth what?! I just don’t think that is how God is looking at things.

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  114. Max wrote:

    One of Hybels’ supporters said he was the greatest Christian of the last two centuries

    That just tells you how deeply they’ve drunk the koolaid…

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  115. @ Max:
    The irony is that before the internet it was a lot easier to secure such a legacy. I think what shocks me is how little fear there is in understanding that someday all things will be known. they never really believed what they taught.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  116. Max wrote:

    One of Hybels’ supporters said he was the greatest Christian of the last two centuries –

    Really?
    Let’s do some stack-up between Hybels and say Oskar Schindler, and see who wins.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  117. ishy wrote:

    I don’t think Patterson, at al. had any idea they were bringing in the age of the New Calvinists in the SBC. I think they wanted to be the ones in change.

    You can NEVER have only one Coup. Because that first Coup sets the precedent.
    Like the Dantonists, Hebertists, and the first Banana Republic Generalissimos:
    “B-But NOBODY was supposed to Stage another Coup after WE Did!”

    It seems to me they didn’t plan as far ahead as Mohler did.

    Successful Sociopaths ALWAYS lay their plans Twenty Chess Moves ahead of everyone else.

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  118. Max wrote:

    History will wad up the resumes of their lives and toss them in the round file.

    I wonder if some great [sic] leaders will someday wish it were only history tossing their resumés in the round file.

    Your mention of the genuinely great, but quietly anonymous, believer in a rural church reminds me of a comment attributed to Heidi Baker. According thereto, someone asked her who was the greatest believer she’d ever met. She replied: “You haven’t met her; she’s dying in a hospital in Mozambique”.

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  119. Lydia wrote:

    @ Max:
    The irony is that before the internet it was a lot easier to secure such a legacy. I think what shocks me is how little fear there is in understanding that someday all things will be known.

    Translated from the Parseltongue:
    “Yea, Hath God Said?”

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  120. Max wrote:

    The “yeah buts” are storming cyberspace in their defense, citing all their great achievements, but it’s all for nought when you consider their double-lives while stacking up the positives.

    “Yeah, but the Fuehrer created the Autobahn!”

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  121. @ Muff Potter:
    Exactly. But that begs the question; what exactly are we measuring?

    And that is where I think typical Christianity loses the plot. If it is not about being a decent honorable blameless person who believes death was conquered by our Lord and we will spend eternity with him, then what is it about?

    How big the church? How popular the pastor? Having correct Doctrine? How much wrongdoing we can get by with before it actually counts?

    What is the “fruit” Jesus was talking about?

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  122. Max wrote:

    One of Pressler’s supporters defended his perversion saying his leadership during the Conservative Resurgence was worth it. Worth what?!

    WINNING.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  123. Lea wrote:

    Lydia. wrote:
    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I might agree with you if I had a clue about Game of Thrones.

    Chaos…is a ladder.

    Don’t forget “He would burn the whole world if it meant he could be King over the ashes.” — Lord Varis

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  124. Max wrote:

    Because the promoters of comp doctrine found a large demographic of shallow young restless and reformed gullible enough to swallow it.

    Adding “GOD SAITH!” to “Bros & Hos”.

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  125. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You can NEVER have only one Coup. Because that first Coup sets the precedent

    That’s one of the big Questions that Game of Thrones asks. Is it worth it to kill the king? Is the chaos that ensues worth it. It’s the exact question we have to ask about the Iraq War.

    I think the other question it asks is what is the price of honor, but that doesn’t apply to this situation as much.

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  126. Stuck at the signal just E of Larbert, waiting for the southbound train to go through the junction. It’s late (we’re certainly not early).

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  127. Lydia wrote:

    How big the church? How popular the pastor? Having correct Doctrine? How much wrongdoing we can get by with before it actually counts?

    What is the “fruit” Jesus was talking about?

    During my time in-country, it was “HOW MANY SOULS DID YOU SAVE???”
    Your sales record (with Souls(TM), not people, as the Currency of Heaven, and MONEY TALKS!)

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  128. JYJames wrote:

    Women can’t preach, but the hierarchy, lower-archy, and the middle-archy, can assault children.

    Rank Hath Its Privileges, and Woman Must Submit.

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  129. Ricco wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Refer to my dramatic retelling of the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe above. That fleshes out how sick this is. @ Ricco:

    Theirs is a High and Lonely Destiny, Digory.

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  130. Lydia wrote:

    Having correct Doctrine?

    I was going to make a joke about schindler not having the right doctrine, but yeah. I’m one who doesn’t care too much about doctrine so long as it’s in the right ballpark and not actively harmful (comp nonsense for instance). I think actions/real care are much more important.

    Don’t lose the plot. Exactly. Paul even spells it out…if there is no love in what you’re doing it’s worthless. They need to drill that into these seminary idiots heads…

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  131. Lydia wrote:

    they never really believed what they taught

    That’s because they never really “believed” perhaps. Church history has been populated with lots of Matthew 7:21-23 “Christians.”

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  132. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Yeah, but the Fuehrer created the Autobahn!”

    “And had the idea for Volkswagen. A car for every citizen.”

    (Like… over 6 million Jews+ later, guess what – someone would eventually have come up with the ideas for the Autobahn and the Volkswagen. Hitler’s legacy was carnage. Period. These church scoundrels have only the legacies of their cons and the damages done to innocents via their evil in sheep’s clothing.)

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  133. Lydia wrote:

    In our search for “great leaders” we forget to be our own leader— as was always intended by our Lord.

    Such an insightful comment. Where are the preachers preaching that we each need to guard and retain our own agency? That would be useful right now: “Folks, do NOT drink the Kool-aid” with chapter and verse.

    Also, your reference to being disguised in a “Jesus outfit”. Apt term.

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  134. Lea wrote:

    I was going to make a joke about schindler not having the right doctrine, but yeah. I’m one who doesn’t care too much about doctrine so long as it’s in the right ballpark and not actively harmful…

    I’ve seen so many

     selfless, decent who are patient, kind, keep no record of wrongs, hope, believe and endure all things, and who would lay down their lives for another, who have technically incorrect doctrine and
     self-important, arrogant, judgemental people whose correct doctrine fills them with pride, empties them utterly of compassion and love (except love of fame, money and glory), and motivates them to shun their fellow human beings with zeal and relish

    that I regard doctrine as little more than idle intellectual curiosity. Ravening wolves are every bit as likely to peddle accurate doctrine as false. The mere fact that a person believes that God sent his Sonjesus to dieonthecross for yoursin means nothing – nothing – regarding whether that person actually loves or not.

    But hey; take no notice of me. I’m just a liberal agnostic.

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  135. JYJames wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    Stuck at the signal just E of Larbert,
    Near Bonnybridge Golf Course?

    A mile from Bonnybridge golf course, and right next to Falkirk golf club.

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  136. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

     self-important, arrogant, judgemental people whose correct doctrine fills them with pride, empties them utterly of compassion and love (except love of fame, money and glory), and motivates them to shun their fellow human beings with zeal and relish

    To me, the problem is righteous certainty. Have whatever doctrine you want, just be willing to say “I could be wrong.” I know I run down Calvinism a lot, but I have no problem with humble Calvinists who say, “I believe I’m right, but I could be wrong.”

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  137. @ Daisy:

    Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I am not about forcing people to change or telling them what kind of a church they are allowed to go to. But I’ve always wondered why people (women) so willingly fell for the comp focus as the “Gospel”.

    I think you have a lot of people who grow up in it and it take a while to say ‘wait a minute’. Stronger question is why adults go along.

    I think so many people are scared of being ‘liberal’ they can’t think outside of their denominational box.

    I think the reasons Lydia mentions are right, and, in my experience, having been in cultish & extremely patriarchal Reformed (not YRR, but old school Reformed) churches for my adult life, there are a number of factors. The biggest one, I think, though, is how trapped a woman is when her male “head” -father or husband- joins the abusive patriarchy. Ipso facto, you can’t leave. It’s contumacy.

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  138. JYJames wrote:

    Where are the preachers preaching that we each need to guard and retain our own agency?

    Agency?! Anathema. (Plus it’s a worldly word. Doesn’t even appear in the Bible!). Plus, that wouldn’t be “unified,” the byword of cultish churches.

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  139. FW Rez wrote:

    Max wrote:

    it has underpinned the trend toward Calvinism in the denomination.

    Max: Do you see a relationship between Authoritarianism and Calvinism? I agree with you that Calvinism has increased under BFM2K. I also think that BFM2K has contributed a lot to a general rise in Authoritarianism, making the SBC more palatable to Fundamentalists of all ilks. I’m just not sure of the correlation between the two. Honest question. I always respect your opinion.

    Not Max, but if you read Calvin and the Reformers, they absolutely preach authoritarianism, both ecclesiastical and familial (because the family reflects the church which reflects the Godhead. An authoritarian pyramid.)
    I personally, experientially or theorically based on my reading, cannot reconcile Calvinist and Reformed doctrine with a non-abusive system. I can’t speak to your questions about New Calvinism within the SBC – I only learned of it from reading this blog.

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  140. @ Daisy:

    “It’s bad enough for people to sexually prey on others, but to do so in the context of Christianity, Bible studies, or in the name of God, is (at least for me), even ten times more creepy and disgusting.”

    Yes. Evidence of a seared conscience.

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  141. Lydia wrote:

    JYJames wrote:
    Muff Potter wrote:
    Why does the peasantry still put up with all this chicanery?

    It says we put an awful lot of faith in people and because of that, we tend to elevate the diabolically clever or the totalitarian niceness cons. Take your pick. Both are long con disasters. In our search for “great leaders” we forget to be our own leader— as was always intended by our Lord.

    This is it. We can’t pass the buck on accountability and figure eyethings fine just because so and so seems like a good guy or gal and seems to get you and/or has some other reason(s) to have our respect or even sympathy in some cases. It’s like the old song Smiling Faces Sometimes, they aren’t always telling the truth, or the whole truth that matters.

    Plus, emotional manipulation is a key factor here. Even when there’s smoke, the authoritarians in question too often orchestrate or allow themselves to look like the aggrieved party, as their supporters speak long and hard about forgiveness, gossip, judgment, etc. I’ve starting dubbing it the Wounded Lion Syndrome, after a recent case I’ve dealt with that shares commonalities with many of those being discussed.

    When oversight or accountability was being brought to bear on issues that clearly needed attention (for a 501 c3, especially one involving big time Kingdom-dedicated funds — *waves at those who might pass this along to the powers that be*, over and over, the power(s) that be would take a put-upon demeanor and act like those exercising the oversight duties were exhibiting distrust, disunity, you name it. Looks like many wounded lions are licking their paws at the moment in the Christian world, sadly.

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  142. Lydia wrote:

    Exactly. But that begs the question; what exactly are we measuring?

    I say deeds. Others will insist that the tape measure is calibrated in beliefs passed on to others to the tune of:
    How many have you led to Christ?

    Lea wrote:

    I was going to make a joke about schindler not having the right doctrine, but yeah. I’m one who doesn’t care too much about doctrine so long as it’s in the right ballpark and not actively harmful (comp nonsense for instance). I think actions/real care are much more important.

    As the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding; no matter how loudly some will claim that the pudding is not relevant, only the recipe.

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  143. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    P.S. I got home eventually, but the train was delayed by over 20 minutes by a bizarre series of bothers.

    “A Bizarre Series of Bothers” sounds like a worthy successor to Keeping Up Appearances.

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  144. FW Rez wrote:

    Do you see a relationship between Authoritarianism and Calvinism?

    Within SBC, certainly! The New Calvinist movement has produced a new generation of authoritarian-wannabe young reformers who are either planting new churches or taking over non-Calvinist churches via stealth and deception. They sincerely believe that Calvinism = Gospel and are passionate about their cause. These young men have been fed a steady diet of complementarianism, elder-rule church governance, and an unbalanced form of church discipline by New Calvinist icons (Piper, Mohler, Dever, etc.). They are determined to restore the “right” gospel to the church and feel they must exert the long arm of the law to do so … authoritarianism is naturally the result.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  145. @ Max:

    Thanks for the response. Excellent summary. There is a militant tone to so much of what I read, i.e. “The gospel must be defended” or “Any true preaching of the gospel must confront sin” that they seem to be on a war-path. There are ways to present God’s grace without sounding like you’re “locked and loaded”.

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  146. @ Max:

    “One of Pressler’s supporters defended his perversion saying his leadership during the Conservative Resurgence was worth it.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    …..??? i can’t breath… where did you see/hear such a remark?

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  147. JDV wrote:

    “A Bizarre Series of Bothers” sounds like a worthy successor to Keeping Up Appearances.

    I first read it as “Brothers” which would make it a good successor to Allo, Allo!

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  148. @ FW Rez:

    My point is that there is a much more confrontational tone to a lot of tweets, memes, and FB posts by the Neo-Cals than there needs to be. Jesus was confrontational when he was challenging the self-righteous religious leaders of the day. Otherwise, He was compassionate, providing healing, hope, and the promise that the Kingdom of God was near.

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  149. @ Muff Potter:
    “I say deeds. Others will insist that the tape measure is calibrated in beliefs passed on to others to the tune of:
    How many have you led to Christ?”

    That is where I am, for the most part. And it causes many heads to explode so I just keep it to myself except for places where it’s ok to discuss.

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  150. @ JDV:
    Add to that– most Christians spend their lives looking for good (godly?) leaders. Insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  151. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    that I regard doctrine as little more than idle intellectual curiosity. Ravening wolves are every bit as likely to peddle accurate doctrine as false. The mere fact that a person believes that God sent his Sonjesus to dieonthecross for yoursin means nothing – nothing – regarding whether that person actually loves or not.

    idle intellectual curiosity. That’s how I see so much of it too. Dismissing people because their ‘doctrine’ is not right also seems incredibly foolish.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  152. Muff Potter wrote:

    As the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding; no matter how loudly some will claim that the pudding is not relevant, only the recipe.

    My mind is going in all sort of directions on this analogy….

    The thing is, you can get to the ‘pudding’ of human kindness as it were without any recipe but what’s in us as humans.

    And you can follow a recipe exactly and still have a bad outcome, because cooking is temperamental. Hm.

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  153. Lydia wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    “I say deeds. Others will insist that the tape measure is calibrated in beliefs passed on to others to the tune of:
    How many have you led to Christ?”

    That is where I am, for the most part. And it causes many heads to explode so I just keep it to myself except for places where it’s ok to discuss.

    I think we only truly bring people to Christ by example.

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  154. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Yes, I noticed. Of course, that’s only where race is concerned. Women still don’t matter.

    Subjugation of and control over women is the last bastion of white male superiority.

    Well there are still children. I suspect that the teens in the Bible studies were carefully taught unquestioning obedience to their elders within the community thus making them easy prey for some of those elders even for some time after the teens cease to be legally children.

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  155. @ Lea:
    Bingo. Fair, just,responsible, etc. are huge. I hesitate to mention “love” because these days it is often practiced totalitarian niceness. Definitions for Christian “love” are all over the place. And I don’t “tolerate” pedophiles out of love. 🙂

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  156. Lydia wrote:

    I hesitate to mention “love” because these days it is often practiced totalitarian niceness. Definitions for Christian “love” are all over the place.

    Many have redefined ‘love’ in dumb ways like ‘tell my wife what to do, so she’ll be ‘sanctified’, or ‘tell everybody in church what to do’, etc.

    In the context of the fruits of the spirit it seems more clear, because in addition to love you have joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

    Telling them this stuff won’t fix them, though. Because they need to have some sort of caring coming from inside. A list of rules/behaviors can be good (manners, for instance) but will never work on someone’s heart.

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  157. Max wrote:

    The New Calvinist movement has produced a new generation of authoritarian-wannabe young reformers who are either planting new churches or taking over non-Calvinist churches via stealth and deception. They sincerely believe that Calvinism = Gospel and are passionate about their cause. These young men have been fed a steady diet of complementarianism, elder-rule church governance, and an unbalanced form of church discipline by New Calvinist icons (Piper, Mohler, Dever, etc.). They are determined to restore the “right” gospel to the church and feel they must exert the long arm of the law to do so … authoritarianism is naturally the result.

    Max, I always thought you lived in the south, but by this comment it is clear to me that you live in my small town in Massachusetts. This is what happened to my former church; the new pastor has been following the playbook to perfection.

    Lydia wrote:

    I have come across a few Millennial women who have started attending Neo Cal plants who have never heard of the word “complementarian”.

    In my former church they never used this word, but it is what they taught. And I doubt anyone in the pew has heard it. In all the new SBC (and other complementarian) church plants in the Boston area, very few mention it on their website, or the fact they’re SBC. My friends attend one such church and have no idea that that is the teaching of the church, and they don’t question why the leadership is all male.

    I remember Deana saying years ago that the people in Boston wouldn’t stand for all this Neo Cal/complementarian teaching. Sadly, I have to disagree. They have checked their brains at the door and are embracing everything. No one wants to be seen as the source of disunity, which was loudly preached at my former church.

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  158. @ Lea:

    Muff Potter wrote: “As the old saying goes, the proof is in the pudding; no matter how loudly some will claim that the pudding is not relevant, only the recipe.”

    Leah wrote: “My mind is going in all sort of directions on this analogy….

    The thing is, you can get to the ‘pudding’ of human kindness as it were without any recipe but what’s in us as humans.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    yes, many directions with the kitchen/food analogy. like, too many cooks spoil the soup.

    or, velveeta vs stilton where the processing & treatments of information is concerned. less processing, & the absence of extra & synthetic ingredients is what yields healthy, high quality, good-tasting.

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  159. Max wrote:

    One of Pressler’s supporters defended his perversion saying his leadership during the Conservative Resurgence was worth it.

    Crying shame the person who said this wasn’t one of Pressler’s victims!

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  160. elastigirl wrote:

    yes, many directions with the kitchen/food analogy. like, too many cooks spoil the soup.

    Yes!

    Maybe cooking is the perfect analogy because it is so imperfect, and there are so many factors, techniques, experience, ingredients that make a recipe turn out right. And two people make the same thing, and it will be completely different. Recipes are just a direction really…

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  161. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    “that I regard doctrine as little more than idle intellectual curiosity.”
    ++++++++++++++

    i see it as game-playing. like, these board games that some adults latch on to (Axis & Allies, Settlers of Catan).

    i truly think it’s real-life game playing. to win, you have to separate yourself(selves) out from the losers. and identity them as losers.

    slap a God sticker on it and you feel righteous about it, and your prize has eternal proportions. talk about an exciting game!

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  162. Erp wrote:

    I suspect that the teens in the Bible studies were carefully taught unquestioning obedience to their elders within the community thus making them easy prey for some of those elders even for some time after the teens cease to be legally children.

    FEATURE, NOT BUG.

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  163. Lea wrote:

    I think we only truly bring people to Christ by example.

    Not by High-Pressure Sales Manipulation?
    (“WITNESS! WITNESS! WITNESS! WORK FOR THE NIGHT IS COMING! WITNESS! WITNESS! WITNESS!”)

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  164. Lea wrote:

    idle intellectual curiosity. That’s how I see so much of it too.

    Whether twirling pens or not, making everything into an abstract intellectual exercise can destroy what humanity you have.
    “A Million Deaths is only a Statistic.”
    “Only a Three-point-Seven Gigadeath situation. Insignificant.” (smug smile) “Have A Nice Day.”

    Dismissing people because their ‘doctrine’ is not right also seems incredibly foolish.

    No different than the classic Communists with their “Purity of Ideology”.

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  165. JDV wrote:

    We can’t pass the buck on accountability and figure eyethings fine just because so and so seems like a good guy or gal and seems to get you and/or has some other reason(s) to have our respect or even sympathy in some cases. It’s like the old song Smiling Faces.

    A song warning about Deceit and Manipulation — Let Him Who Has Ears to Hear, Hear:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3wfsbTvk_s

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  166. Lea wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Whether twirling pens or not

    I love how you keep bringing this up after I mentioned it.
    It is a real thing!!!!

    That’s because it strikes me as a meaningless gesture of Smug Superiority.

    As well as all those accounts from ATI, Douggie ESQUIRE’s group, and Homeschoolers Anonymous about Quiverfull Reconsructionists being obsessed with Debate an training their boys in Debate – pen-twirling Uruk-Hai for Culture War Without End, Amen.

    From what I’ve seen of Debaters, there is no Truth, there is no Lie, there is Only WINNING The Debate.
    AND the attitude of Smug Superiority over your Inferior Losers.

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  167. Lydia wrote:

    @ JDV:
    Add to that– most Christians spend their lives looking for good (godly?) leaders.

    The spillover of which explains a lot of the Christian vote in 2016.

    Insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.

    Remember: It’s always the OTHER Guy who’s Insane.
    You’re always the Rational and Reasonable (and Righteous) One.

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  168. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Max wrote:

    One of Pressler’s supporters defended his perversion saying his leadership during the Conservative Resurgence was worth it.

    Crying shame the person who said this wasn’t one of Pressler’s victims!

    These defenders never cared as long as they were not the victim. There were and are a lot of victims of the TAKEOVER.

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  169. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    That’s because it strikes me as a meaningless gesture of Smug Superiority.

    That was certainly how I took it.
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    From what I’ve seen of Debaters, there is no Truth, there is no Lie, there is Only WINNING The Debate.

    I wouldn’t go so far as to say there is no ‘lie’ in debate, but it is not set up to determine truth. It is set up to structure your arguments, use evidence, etc. It is actually a fantastic way to learn a topic, as you have to learn the whole topic. The position you take changes every time you debate.

    But your skill at debating has little to nothing to do with what is true, or right. You cannot say ‘that person is a great at rhetoric and thus they are correct’. That is a useful thing to realize.

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  170. Lydia wrote:

    That is where I am, for the most part. And it causes many heads to explode so I just keep it to myself except for places where it’s ok to discuss.

    Good policy Lyds.
    It’s prudent to stay submerged until it’s safe to surface.
    Because the shrapnel from heads that explode can get ugly and rancorous.

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  171. Muff Potter wrote:

    I say deeds. Others will insist that the tape measure is calibrated in beliefs passed on to others to the tune of:
    How many have you led to Christ?

    If the standard is going to be how many people have you lead to Christ, like many evangelicals insist, then shouldn’t we balance that number against how many people you have driven away from the church, screaming in horror, by your spiritual abuse, mean-spiritedness, and hatred. Many of these people who are out there talking about “winning souls for Christ” would have a number way below zero.

    The interesting thing about Calvinism is, I think it gives an out for what I mentioned above. People who don’t believe were reprobate anyway, so it couldn’t have been anything you did that made them not want to be a part of your church, it was their total depravity. That is very convenient out that allows you to treat outsiders however you want.

    I think the standard by which we are “judged” (I honestly have no clue what that means) will be how we treat others, particularly those who have nothing to offer us.

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  172. Ricco wrote:

    The interesting thing about Calvinism is, I think it gives an out for what I mentioned above. People who don’t believe were reprobate anyway, so it couldn’t have been anything you did that made them not want to be a part of your church, it was their total depravity.

    At the same time, this obnoxious soul winning does not seem to be common in my presby denom. That is a truly evangelical thing. It is actually more about doing good works. We have never been encouraged to treat outsiders badly, quite the opposite.

    But it’s not one of the neo type churches. Which is why I will say there are so many other factors that go into that attitude.

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  173. @ elastigirl:
    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    “I was a seminary professor in Texas for a number of years. A student told me about a young man who had experienced similar behavior from Pressler … told a Baptist leader about this incident, and got a response that the cause of biblical inerrancy was so important that he wouldn’t jeopardize the conservative resurgence.”
    (comment by “Kent”, The Texas Monitor, https://texasmonitor.org/paul-pressler-jared-woodfill-defamation-suit/comment-page-1/#comments)

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  174. @ Lea:
    That’s interesting. Do you see big differences between evangelical presbyterianism and more mainline, non-evangelical presbyterianism. Is it as simple as the difference between PCA and PCUSA.

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  175. Lea wrote:

    At the same time, this obnoxious soul winning does not seem to be common in my presby denom. That is a truly evangelical thing.

    Maybe it’s a fusion of two or three separate “church traditions” — Revivalism, Fundamentalism, and Calvinism — that’s causing this. Like the corporate cultures of Trump Tower and the Executive Branch, they do not mix well.

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  176. mot wrote:

    These defenders never cared as long as they were not the victim.

    Hard to see anything wrong with a System when you’re one of those who personally benefit from it.

    “There’s nothing wrong with The System.
    The System works Just Fine (for MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE)!”

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  177. Ricco wrote:

    To me, the problem is righteous certainty. Have whatever doctrine you want, just be willing to say “I could be wrong.” I know I run down Calvinism a lot, but I have no problem with humble Calvinists who say, “I believe I’m right, but I could be wrong.”

    Wonderfully put, Ricco, on all counts.

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  178. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Hard to see anything wrong with a System when you’re one of those who personally benefit from it.
    “There’s nothing wrong with The System.
    The System works Just Fine (for MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE)!”

    This, to me, sums up the christian religion. To paraphrase Mary’s song, which Luke quotes: He/she/it has filled the minority with good things, and the rest he/she/it has sent empty away.

    Christianity provides lavish rewards and glittering careers – or mind-blowing ecstatic emotional arousal if they already have ample in the way of career – to a tiny minority. To a larger minority, who are 98% fed and supported by “the world”, it provides a satisfying emotional top-up. But most people, if they look below the surface, will never find anything in it.

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  179. @ Susanna:
    You have nailed it. they have let go of the terminology but are still teaching it. They just say they are simply teaching the Bible. But they ignore a lot of Scholars who interpreted very differently. The sad part is how that keeps people from maturing. It’s perfectly okay to disagree but let’s study first!

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  180. Susanna wrote:

    No one wants to be seen as the source of disunity, which was loudly preached at my former church.

    The irony is that the church you describe was, presumably, entirely separate from the rest of the church (whether of other denominations or the vanity projects of other self-appointed leaders) in the area. And if anyone had suggested that everyone abandon their differences and form one local church, to display unity… ROFL.

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  181. @ mot:
    The 30,000 people who showed up at the conventions back then. That doesn’t mean it was the right decision. That doesn’t mean there weren’t political strategies. That doesn’t mean there weren’t bad people on both sides.

    There was no vote to go calvinist.

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  182. Lydia wrote:

    @ mot:
    The 30,000 people who showed up at the conventions back then. That doesn’t mean it was the right decision. That doesn’t mean there weren’t political strategies. That doesn’t mean there weren’t bad people on both sides.

    There was no vote to go calvinist.

    Thank you, Lydia. I understand what you are saying now.

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  183. Susanna wrote:

    Sadly, I have to disagree. They have checked their brains at the door and are embracing everything. No one wants to be seen as the source of disunity, which was loudly preached at my former church.

    It’s another one of those things that is parroted to the followers that they don’t think about, as the Gospel Coalition are the kings of disunity in the church. Their covenants and their leaders have made it clear that you can only have unity if you are submitted to them, because of course, they have the only true Gospel™.

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  184. Lydia wrote:

    @ mot:
    The 30,000 people who showed up at the conventions back then. That doesn’t mean it was the right decision. That doesn’t mean there weren’t political strategies. That doesn’t mean there weren’t bad people on both sides.

    There was no vote to go calvinist.

    I was at that convention and I still don’t think most of those people had any idea what they were truly voting for. Many seemed to think it was more political than theological.

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  185. Lydia wrote:

    There was no vote to go calvinist.

    Exactly. Millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists, the majority belief and practice for 150 years, had zero say in the matter. There was no resolution raised on the convention floor, no ballot circulated to 45,000 SBC churches, no letter mailed to members from SBC headquarters. The largest non-Calvinist denomination in America is trending toward Calvinism through stealth and deception by a handful of New Calvinists intent on taking the denomination back to its reformed roots … even though the tree doesn’t want to go there.

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  186. Lydia wrote:

    @ ishy:
    My goodness. What year are you talking about? I thought you were a little spring chicken.

    1999-2001. I was a student at Liberty and got extra credit to go to the first two, and worked at NAMB in 2001.

    When they pushed the 2000 BFM, they focused hard on the religious liberty addition and the family unit addition. Things like the elimination of soul competency and the change in wording from “the priesthood of the believer” to “priesthood of believers” were barely mentioned.

    I just read over it again and noticed the change in wording about Christ, which was “The criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted is Jesus Christ” to “All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.” Doesn’t the second sound very New Cal vague?

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  187. Max wrote:

    a handful of New Calvinists intent on taking the denomination back to its reformed roots

    Al Mohler learned how to pull it off via strategic appointments of New Calvinist leaders at most SBC entities. He watched Paul Pressler do that during the Conservative Resurgence when they routed perceived moderates/liberals from the denomination. Perversion in the SBC has taken on various forms over the years.

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  188. ishy wrote:

    I just read over it again and noticed the change in wording about Christ, which was “The criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted is Jesus Christ” to “All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.”

    This change in the 2000 revision of the Baptist Faith and Message essentially deleted a Christocentric criterion for interpretation of Scripture.

    ishy wrote:

    Doesn’t the second sound very New Cal vague?

    Indeed. Fits right into the New Calvinist ESS doctrine. The new reformers are treading on dangerous ground by subordinating Jesus!

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  189. @ ishy:
    In some ways, this is the cost of the reformation. I’m a protestant, so I’m not just throwing stones. Everything has a price, though, and now churches keep splitting into smaller and smaller groups as we try to narrow down our faith in our pursuit of evangelical nirvana.

    Many in the evangelical world confuse conformity and submission with unity. They are NOT the same thing

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  190. Max wrote:

    Indeed. Fits right into the New Calvinist ESS doctrine. The new reformers are treading on dangerous ground by subordinating Jesus!

    I do remember there being a good bit of controversy over that part, but I don’t think anyone had any idea of how it would be later interpreted.

    Just another giant neon sign pointed at how deceptive Mohler and friends were and are. They clearly knew why they were changing it way back then. I mean, they didn’t really go big with ESS until 2016-2017.

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  191. Ricco wrote:

    Many in the evangelical world confuse conformity and submission with unity. They are NOT the same thing

    I think it may be even deeper than that. Many conflate their own desire for power as God’s will. So they come up with theology to grant them that power and help them keep it. And many Christians don’t want to do the work of discernment because it means facing how bad humans can really be to each other.

    I know this is why New Cals run away from talking about the gospels in the Bible and tried to minimize Him with ESS. Jesus taught the last would be first and the weak would be strong. Everything He said was everything they don’t want to be.

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  192. @ ishy:
    Good points. That thing you said about using Jesus to interpret all scripture was very interesting. I’ve come, through a long winding process, to the perspective that this is the way we should read scripture. It is amazing that a denomination would throw that away. I think all scripture, from Genesis to Psalms to Paul to Revelation, should be read through the person of Jesus Christ.

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  193. @ ishy:
    I was thinking 1979 or 85. Inerrancy.

    I wasn’t involved back then but it was a huge topic with my extended family. Remember SBTS was one of the last to go over. My cousins came home from the mission field after 18 yrs when they were required to sign the bfm2000. She had an m.div and did Church while he was planting in the bush. So they could not sign it in good conscience. Nasty stuff.

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  194. Ricco wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Good points. That thing you said about using Jesus to interpret all scripture was very interesting. I’ve come, through a long winding process, to the perspective that this is the way we should read scripture. It is amazing that a denomination would throw that away. I think all scripture, from Genesis to Psalms to Paul to Revelation, should be read through the person of Jesus Christ.

    Agreed. There is a scarlet thread woven throughout the whole of Scripture. The SBC denomination didn’t throw the Christocentric interpretation of Scripture away … Al Mohler and his band of New Calvinists did. How the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America let him get away with it is beyond me! Millions of Southern Baptists have been uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant about Calvinization of their denomination.

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  195. @ ishy:
    It was very deceptive and sneaky wasn’t it? But even weirder I grew up in the SBC and around SBTS and never once heard about a BFM until 2000. We were never really in a creedal type Church but were in plenty of churches! Not even my last SBC church ever brought it up until the Neo cal pastor took over. I was told he preached a series on it. Sigh

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  196. @ Max:
    I can handle losing a vote. I just go to work the next day. But their tactics of stealth and deception means they are not who they say they are.

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  197. Lydia wrote:

    My cousins came home from the mission field after 18 yrs when they were required to sign the bfm2000.

    My cousin and family came home as well from South Africa after nearly 20 years there. They would not sign BFM2000. Southern Baptists have surrendered their denominational gift of evangelism to all nations, tribes and tongues, IMO … thanks to the New Calvinist takeover.

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  198. Lydia wrote:

    @ ishy:
    It was very deceptive and sneaky wasn’t it? But even weirder I grew up in the SBC and around SBTS and never once heard about a BFM until 2000. We were never really in a creedal type Church but were in plenty of churches! Not even my last SBC church ever brought it up until the Neo cal pastor took over. I was told he preached a series on it. Sigh

    That’s why I think nobody really knew what they were voting for in that. I don’t think Baptists considered the BFM all that important because churches were autonomous and believers had soul competency. Baptists tended to dislike creeds.

    It really wasn’t the changes that made the difference, but the fact that Mohler put his people in place at the heads of all the agencies to enforce his changes in the BFM. And that included a lot of money and the ability to influence all the baby pastors that come through the SBC seminaries.

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  199. Just realized Mohler must view it as a covenant. And by being Southern Baptist, you must accept the covenant. Just pretend that word “autonomous” is not still there, just like Jesus’ life and ministry isn’t really in the Bible…

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  200. @ ishy:
    I once heard a megachurch pastor tell the audience to “trust positive intentions”. That just went right through me. How in the world can 20 thou people know if his intentions are positive? It’s creepy how they manipulate.

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  201. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The irony is that the church you describe was, presumably, entirely separate from the rest of the church

    Absolutely ironic! It is a completely unaffiliated church and the pastor has no oversight that I’m aware of other than his board of yes men. He was ordained as a PCA pastor but it is not a PCA church.

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  202. I’m trying to write a blog this morning on what is happening in the SBC….These people have never heard of Wartburg Watch, and are so “Baptist” they “can’t see the forest for he trees.”

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  203. Lydia wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    “I say deeds. Others will insist that the tape measure is calibrated in beliefs passed on to others to the tune of:
    How many have you led to Christ?”

    That is where I am, for the most part. And it causes many heads to explode so I just keep it to myself except for places where it’s ok to discuss.

    Any time I see this question asked the following verse comes to mind:

    1 Corinthians 3:6
    I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

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  204. K.D. wrote:

    I’m trying to write a blog this morning on what is happening in the SBC….These people have never heard of Wartburg Watch, and are so “Baptist” they “can’t see the forest for he trees.”

    What is your blog? I would love to read your Post about the SBC.

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  205. Lydia wrote:

    They offered to sign their Bible but that wasn’t good enough.

    Well, that should have been enough! Those missionaries had already professed their commitment to Southern Baptist belief and practice outlined in the 1963 version of the Baptist Faith & Message when they signed on. There were those on the foreign mission field who felt that the BFM2000 trended toward creedalism – Baptists have not historically been folks who put their faith in creeds written by mere men … and, of course, many could see the trend toward Calvinism in the revision and how that might impact their ministries on foreign fields. Over 1,000 who signed BFM2000 to stay on the field were forced to come home anyway under New Calvinist David Platt’s leadership of the International Mission Board, citing a funding shortage. But during the same time, New Calvinist Kevin Ezell (Home Mission Board) spent $60 million per year to plant 1,000 new churches in North America (led primarily by YRR pastors). Priorities?

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  206. mot wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    I’m trying to write a blog this morning on what is happening in the SBC….These people have never heard of Wartburg Watch, and are so “Baptist” they “can’t see the forest for he trees.”

    What is your blog? I would love to read your Post about the SBC.

    Me too!

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  207. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    They offered to sign their Bible but that wasn’t good enough.
    Well, that should have been enough! Those missionaries had already professed their commitment to Southern Baptist belief and practice outlined in the 1963 version of the Baptist Faith & Message when they signed on. There were those on the foreign mission field who felt that the BFM2000 trended toward creedalism – Baptists have not historically been folks who put their faith in creeds written by mere men … and, of course, many could see the trend toward Calvinism in the revision and how that might impact their ministries on foreign fields. Over 1,000 who signed BFM2000 to stay on the field were forced to come home anyway under New Calvinist David Platt’s leadership of the International Mission Board, citing a funding shortage. But during the same time, New Calvinist Kevin Ezell (Home Mission Board) spent $60 million per year to plant 1,000 new churches in North America (led primarily by YRR pastors). Priorities?

    Apparently, especially given what you and others here have discussed regarding the push for homes and properly-corralled sheep for the seminary grads. It’s a lot easier to sell said grads on domestic assignments, amongst other realities.

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  208. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    They offered to sign their Bible but that wasn’t good enough.

    Well, that should have been enough! Those missionaries had already professed their commitment to Southern Baptist belief and practice outlined in the 1963 version of the Baptist Faith & Message when they signed on. There were those on the foreign mission field who felt that the BFM2000 trended toward creedalism – Baptists have not historically been folks who put their faith in creeds written by mere men … and, of course, many could see the trend toward Calvinism in the revision and how that might impact their ministries on foreign fields. Over 1,000 who signed BFM2000 to stay on the field were forced to come home anyway under New Calvinist David Platt’s leadership of the International Mission Board, citing a funding shortage. But during the same time, New Calvinist Kevin Ezell (Home Mission Board) spent $60 million per year to plant 1,000 new churches in North America (led primarily by YRR pastors). Priorities?

    Max: The Women’s Missionary Union carried the SBC for many years in many ways. Now I hear little to nothing about the WMU. Women just do not count in the SBC world according to the “leaders.” It makes me beyond sad!

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  209. mot wrote:

    The Women’s Missionary Union carried the SBC for many years in many ways. Now I hear little to nothing about the WMU.

    May be another casualty of SBC’s New Calvinist movement. Some traditional SBC churches still have WMU groups, but none of the SBC-YRR church plants in my area have them.

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  210. JDV wrote:

    Apparently, especially given what you and others here have discussed regarding the push for homes and properly-corralled sheep for the seminary grads. It’s a lot easier to sell said grads on domestic assignments, amongst other realities.

    Riches, Comfort, and Luxury instead of Hardship; just toe the Party Line.

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