Deana Holmes is protesting outside of the Yum! Center in Louisville. She, like Rachel Denhollander and many others, including this blog, are calling for an independent investigation into the charges that Sovereign Grace Ministries/Churches under the leadership of CJ Mahaney, did not appropriately respond to reports of child sex abuse. CJ Mahaney was forced to step down from a speaking role at T4G18 but we are not sure if he is in attendance.
This morning she was approached by Mickey Connolly who often speaks for Sovereign Grace Churches/Ministries
He was quite specific in his message. He said that there will NOT be an independent investigation of Sovereign Grace. Ministries/Churches.
TWW is not surprised. We have had no doubt that Mahaney and friends will do everything they can to avoid being questioned. The question remains is “Why?”
They don’t want to know. They don’t want to change. And they definitely don’t want anyone else to know!
Join me in being not surprised.
/Sidenote: these daytime posts give me chances at being first!/
I think we know ‘why’, they still have too much to hide! But thanks to those who continue to keep up the pressure anyway, including Rachel, Deana, and this blog.
You go, Deana! The Lord is with you. You are speaking for those who have no voice, who have not been believed. Seems to me that Jesus set the example for you. I am thankful for you!
Breaking At The Vatican: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/1 2/601742861/pope-apologizes-for-serious-mistakes-in-handling-of-chile-s-sex-abuse-scandal
“In the extraordinary three-page letter, Francis also apologized for accusing abuse victims of slandering Barros. Pope Francis has acknowledged “serious mistakes” in his handling of Chile’s sex abuse scandal and summoned the country’s bishops to an emergency meeting in Rome to discuss the matter.
“I ask forgiveness of all those I have offended and I hope to be able to do it personally in the coming weeks,” the pope said in the letter released by the Vatican on Wednesday.”
No more looking down your nose, turning away, arrogant condemning judgment from the Protestant world…
“Our” house is as fouled as “theirs”, with much less effort shown to call out the guilty and nurture the victims.
So I guess that we can just assume that the worst is true? CJ and other power players were in on the cover-up, and everyone should makes as much noise about it as possible, so that it continues to follow him for as long as he has a public platform or “ministry.”
Of course they won’t. There’s enough evidence out there for most people to know it’s pretty bad, particularly with the Morales trail. So they’re just going to go on pretending that doesn’t exist because it’s probably much worse than we even know.
ishy wrote:
I feel like for most of these churches, they wont admit mistakes because then they might have to change. They might have to change leaders, they might have to change theology even. This is easier.
@ Molly245:
If you know someone who looked down their nose please state their names. I have heard this before and I am not assuming they are not out there. We need to know.
My view is most of these closed “spiritual institutions” are dangerous, not transparent and we should take it all seriously and each one individually.
The pope also came home from Chile and made the implication that the reports from Chile about Barros were “fake news”.
I am glad he apologized and I hope he does the right thing in removing such people immediately. Maybe even a discipline of less pension or something. Take it very seriously this time. Not just move them around.
Lydia wrote:
I am glad he is doing the right thing now (hopefully), but since he just came to this conclusion a day or two ago it seems a bit early to be knocking all protestants as lesser. Catholics have had a heads up on their serious issues with abuse of what 10-20 years? Yes, please by all means handle it.
Protestants need to handle things too, but we don’t have a ‘top man’ to speak for the whole so we are doing it in pieces. {Unless we want to count Rachel as our spokesperson which I would be happy to do!]
Given current trends, how much longer will there be an SGC? I don’t know how things are going at CJ’s church plant at the Marriott, but at one point there were 150 showing up, and 5 “pastors.” That’s not usually sustainable, and I’m assuming they are running on leftover fumes from SGM.
Correction: They are now meeting at a school gym.
Molly245 wrote:
The Chile story didn’t get much coverage in Canada, but Pope Francis’s recent refusal to apologize to residential school survivors in Canada did:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/pope-residential-school-apology-reaction-1.4598264
@ Lea:
I haven’t read anything about them disciplining Barros which puts feet to the apology. But I haven’t followed it since he came back from Chile and announced the reports as fake news.
If you get a chance listen to Rachael Denhollander’s Harvard Veritas talk if you haven’t. It’s powerful. I am so jaded about public Christianity these days I don’t expect consistency. She delivers.
With that said, I am not a big fan of having a spokesperson. Believe it or not people like Russell Moore at ERLC could end up as your spokesperson! Sigh. But I get your point because Protestants are not one big monolithic Church. All the more reason for victims to have places like this to tell their stories publicly.
@ GSD [Getting Stuff Done]:
I didn’t know they moved to a school gym.
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
For real?
Next step is somebodys living room…
Lydia wrote:
Yeah, I’m a protestant for a reason. My main point is we can’t just point to the pope and say ‘look, that settles it’. A fix, for better or worse, is going to have to come in pieces, individual churches, denominations, etc.
I will see if I can listen to Rachel’s speech though. I think she’s fantastic. A lot of people are probably fantastic, but she has the ear of the world at the moment and she is using it.
@ Lea:
She has a gift for explaining the overly complicated and often misunderstood concepts of justice/forgiveness.
For all those who say SG has changed for the better, with every statement the SG Leadership makes, they continue to reveal who are and what they believe. And that has not changed. The leadership operates under the very same false ideologies that made the cover up these sexual abuse cases (in addition to other abuses) possible. Sad but not surprised.
This is no surprise.
An investigation will just keep things alive for longer.
They are banking on not talking about it, and letting it go away.
T4G is all in on race now. That’s the big topic for the Reformed crowd now. Thabiti just wrote that all white Americans, their parents, and their grandparents need to apologize for being complicit in the murder of MLK.
So they are moving on to other topics. C.J. might even co-write a book with a prominent African American about race.
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
I have no idea how many members they have but it’s easier than you think to support 5 pastors when at least some of these pastors are being paid by Sovereign Grace Churches instead of Mahaney’s church. I wouldn’t be so happy if I was paying into another SGC to support all those pastors at Louisville.
Molly245 wrote:
No more “WE THANK THEE, LOOOOOOOOOOORD, THAT WE ARE NOTHING LIKE THOSE FILTHY ROMISH PAPISTS…:
Lea wrote:
AKA “Ten guys in socks chanting in somebody’s living room” Syndrome.
I am not surprised by the refusal of SGC to allow an independent investigation, many of us expected this.
Brent Detwiler, the former #2 man in Sovereign Grace leadership, played a major role in initially breaking the story of the sexual abuse and cover-up in SG Churches. The Mahaney loyalists turned on Detwiler like a pack of rabid dogs. One pastor from Covenant Fellowship Church, Jared Melllinger, stated in a sermon to his congregants that viewing Detwiler’s website was worse than viewing porn!
Detwiler has proven to be correct about SGM/SGC time after time. He was correct again when he stated:
“The only thing that matters is an independent investigation of him [C.J. Mahaney], Covenant Life Church, and Sovereign Grace Churches, Inc. But that is something he/they will never allow because he/they are guilty on so many counts.”
-“Mahaney’s Withdrawal from Together for the Gospel Is Meaningless as He Continues to Run from an Independent Investigation with the Help of Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, et al.”
March 9, 2018
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/mahaneys-withdrawal-from-together-for-the-gospel-is-meaningl.html
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I hope none of us want to be like Romanish papists or Protestant papists! Some have their own version.
@ Anonymous Oracle at Delphi:
Image rehab virtue signaling mode. Sadly, It works.
@ Anonymous Oracle at Delphi:
“Thabiti”
I was shocked his original name was Ron Burns. Had no idea!
Anyone listen to John MacArthur’s sermon on the pastor handling criticism? I’m sure it’s a treasure trove.
CJ wrote an entire small book on that topic. I’m sure the two are relatively similar: ignore the trolls and tell your members to be submissive.
Also, I saw Jacob Denhollander tweeting how he wished SGM would take ownership and get an investigation– that the pope at this point was doing better.
CJ’s books are being sold at T4G18. Cha-ching. Even if he’s not there, he’s still making some dough.
Lydia wrote:
No kidding? Me either.
Steve240 wrote:
First of all, SGC is an extremely unhealthy denomination. I would suggest members resign. Failing that, I would refuse to give them any money until such time as an independent investigation is completed.
Lydia wrote:
1. I am not and have never been a Catholic.
2. who is “we”? Are you part of the Wartburg Team?
3. Are you expecting me to give you individual names of people I have encountered in decades of Evangelical Christianity?
4. Are you saying that you do not believe me unless you yourself know and recognize the names?
5. I understand your objection to the Pope’s statement,that he has just recently spoken on Chile, although he has done other things in the past years to try to remedy the situation.
6. Please do remember that; through the Catholic Church, in more than a few countries has been provided a searchable database of all priests (sorted by name, or diocese) who have been creditably accused of sexual abuse in the last many decades. I was able to find (to my sorrow) the names of 3 priests from my local parish.
7. This is certainly not all that needs to be done but do at least give credit–if not to the Catholic Church–at least to people like SNAP and the Boston Globe whose tireless work has lead to those databases.
8. Do remember too that in the end, the info. came from the Catholic Church. When it came down to it, someone in power recognized that the problem was huge—and told the truth.
9. Very much of Protestantism has yet to be even that forthcoming.
10. You might want to reference what has been done in Australia recently from within the Church.
11. I feel that many replies to my post were at least somewhat about wanting to “Catholic bash” instead of looking at objective actions, lists, and investigations.
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12. I maintain that Protestants. Of. Which. I. Am. One.–still retain an unwarranted feeling of superiority when looking at Casting the First Stone.
9.
Anonymous Oracle at Delphi wrote:
This is disgusting. There are many things our country needs to face regarding racial issues and reconciliation, but do I trust these guys–the Mohlers, Devers, Duncans, Mahaneys, etc.–to do it? NO. I do not. Because they’d be doing it as a way to grab power, and not so much (not at all!) to help.
@ Molly245:
1.Ok. not sure why that matters?
2. “we” was used as a sort of “royal we” as in people need to know who is claiming Protestants are less worse than the Catholics I think it’s ridiculous that it is a measuring contest to begin with.
3. I thought you might have had some in mind that you had heard say that.
4. I am not sure what it is you want me to believe? It’s too vague.
5. I followed the brouhaha in Chile a bit and a little afterwards with his comment about it being fake news. I did wonder in another comment if they had disciplined Barros. I am no expert on the matter.
6. I think that’s great but I am against a database in most denominations because I would not trust the people who would have power over it. It’s like the fox is guarding The Henhouse, IMO. Another problem, For example, would CJ Mahaney be on an SBC database as overseeing a pedophile ring? Would he fit the Criterion to be in a database? He was never accused. But he knew and protected them.
But no big cheeses have asked my opinion. 🙂
7. You must not have been reading my comments very long to make a comment like that so I will just ignore it and choose not to be offended.
8. Not sure which problem in the Catholic Church you are referring to here? Chile? The entire scandal? The sources I read said that it was parishioners who reported it. And that it was the Catholic hierarchy that protected Barros. I have absolutely no problem at all being corrected on that.
9. Again, I don’t view the problem as an ‘us vs them’ measuring context. I think that distracts from the overall evil.
10. I am all for it everything being reformed but I will never trust ‘closed’ systems. Ever.
11. Not at all. I want to know who or what groups are making such public comments. I try to focus on specifics so people can better address them. I have heard that blanket statement many times. I am looking for sources. To try and let them know it’s not a measuring context. It’s about Innocents no matter where it is done. It’s evil.
12. Thank goodness I am not Protestant! 🙂
Blessings!
Lydia–your reply astounds me. I will not engage with you further.
Lydia’s comment above had mentioned Rachael Denhollaner’s speech at Harvard’s Veritas group. I googled it and found it. I thought it was so insightful. I feel like I need to listen to it several times for it to sink in. God is definitely using this brace woman of God to speak the truth. I have copied the URL from Soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/user-248999605/can-we-reconcile-justice-and-forgiveness-rachael-denhollander
I’m sharing it from the SoundCloud iOS app — get it here, free: https://app.adjust.io/c1ofg4
@ Molly245:
I am sorry to hear that.
Todd,
Brent Detwiler did not break the child sex abuse stories out of SGM, the victims, parents and family members told their stories a few years before Brent came on the scene.
Lea wrote:
Rachel DenHollander, Protestant Pope?
Lydia wrote:
I love it when people simplify the needlessly complex and remove the ‘feature-bloat’ so to speak. Do you have a link to her views on those topics?
Molly245 wrote:
Agreed about arrogance and condescension not having a place. I do have to observe that the one in charge probably isn’t looking at personal consequences by and large, and accountability and oversight is also a different animal.
Warren wrote:
From the story: “There is no excuse for not apologizing, Sinclair said, adding he suspects their reluctance to do so might be because of ongoing litigation in Canada and elsewhere. “Also I believe there is a strong element within the church leadership that residential school survivors are not telling the truth,” he said.”
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
Well, and of course, if an inroad for book sales and denomination growing and seminary student placements just happen to be a benefit of extending hands to a well-churched part of American society, I’m sure that will lid be an unexpected bonus for them…
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
Take two: Well, and of course, if an inroad for book sales and denomination growing and seminary student placements just happen to be a benefit of extending hands to a well-churched part of American society, I’m sure that will lid be an unexpected bonus for them…
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
The church I attend is roughly eight times that size. We have six full-time clergy and two part-time clergy.
Molly245 wrote:
That says it so much better than saying ‘if I offended anybody’. I am so sick of the ‘if’ cop-out.
Francis dropped the ball big time on this issue. B16 retired saying that he had come to the point where he could not keep up with the job. JPII hung on long after the time when he was unable to do what he had done before. Their system is more than just the Pope, and it obviously has problems; problems which some of them seem to be trying to work on. Good luck with that; I mean it.
The protestant systems also have flaws and pretty much there is a system-less system which has huge issues. Some protestants are complaining and trying to change that. Good luck with that; I mean it.
So, yes, in my opinion we all need to quit pointing fingers at the other guys and work on our own situations because that is where changes can be made-if any happen. Something about beams and splinters. In this issue more like beams and beams.
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
Sounds like SGL may be going broke. 150 people? How many of those would be employed adults who are putting money in the plate. ~~~ 50, maybe? If all 5 of those pastors are getting paid, where is the money coming from? That school gym they are meeting in is at a private Christian school. Chances are, SGL couldn’t afford to meet at the hotel anymore.
Happymom wrote:
Yes, you are correct, sorry for my error.
As Mickey Connolly unloaded on Deanna, I can hear him singing “Nanny Nanny Boo Boo, Stick Your Head in Doo-Doo … You Can’t Catch Me, You Can’t Catch Me.”
God, for the life me, I can’t understand to this day why people attend Sovereign Grace Churches! What’s wrong with them?!!
Molly245 wrote:
Not Catholic bashing (and am sort of tired of hearing that accusation brought), but also not particular impressed for the same reason I’m not impressed when people ‘confess’ and expect instaforgiveness when they have been publically outted by someone else. It took the Boston Globe and lots of others tirelessly seeking out answers to get the church to admit them. I’m glad it happened.
As Lydia and I discussed, protestants are a different animal and any actions/solutions will look different. I think something more akin to denomination ‘licensing’ that is searchable (similar to doctors, where you can see hits on their record) would make more sense for us. It’s not one organization.
Ricco wrote:
I honestly think she’s more akin to an old school profit.
Lea wrote:
LOL. I’m blaming autocorrect. Prophet!
Lea wrote:
Perfect description. Not a real confession, no real remorse or repentance, but stronghanded insistence on immediate forgivness and restoration, or you’re showing you’re not a Christian!
beatitude wrote:
What was something is that CJ Mahaney wrote his series of posts that were put into a book type form when he was being confronted privately in Brent Detwiler with the series of documents that Brent sent CJ (now are public).
One response you didn’t hear C.J. Mahaney state in his posts/book was the possibility that his critics just might be right. Mahaney gave a whole slew of other responses but never mentioned the possibility that they just might be right. Now looking back on Mahaney’s actions it really doesn’t surprise me that Mahaney wouldn’t mention the possibility that the criticism is justified.
Lea wrote:
Nah…She don’t strike me as bein’ like one o’ them old bearded badgers.
I see her as a present day Jael who took down a present day Sisera.
Max wrote:
Leon Uris (in his novel Mila 18) wondered the same thing about the Polish peasants cowed and beaten down by the old aristocracy well into the 20th century.
Muff Potter wrote:
She is both. Jael to Nassar, a Prophet to the church.
Warning them.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Most seem to be employed at SBTS or some spin off ministry.
Muff Potter wrote:
I am specifically relating this to her explanation of forgiveness/justice. I don’t agree with the PSA view of atonement at the end. (I feel smarmy even mentioning it but it doesn’t help the first part)
https://soundcloud.com/user-248999605/can-we-reconcile-justice-and-forgiveness-rachael-denhollander
Lea wrote:
On second thought you’re right. She’s also a prophetess bearing a warning to all of Evangelical Protestantism (reformed or non):
Change your ways or dry up and blow away like so many Walmart bags snarled in a chain-link fence.
Lydia. wrote:
Listened to her talk at Harvard.
And yeah she does cut through all the feature bloat.
But still, I too cannot accept PSA, it violates my conscience.
@ Muff Potter:
Denhollander is soft spoken and it belies the steel in her spine.
She really is a present day Jael.
She has more courage (the real stuff) than all the macho cage fighters combined.
She’s cut from the same cloth as the Russian women who fought and died on the Eastern Front (1941-1945).
@ Muff Potter:
Yes,as soft spoken and extremely articulate, therefore non threatening to those easily threatened in Christendom. In this case, “blameless” in a way they don’t dare touch.
But the elephant in the room is she is preaching/teaching men.
Lydia wrote:
Ya’ gotta’ give em’ some credit though. Even those nabobs know what’s go for them in a perverse sort of way.
Lydia wrote:
Changing your name to an AFRICAN one (or “X”) was a thing among black Americans of a certain age cohort. Some sort of African Identity riff.
Also, converts to both Christianity and Islam often take a new Christian/Islamic name to announce the change in their life.
Muff Potter wrote:
Anyone want to crowdsource her a couple cases of tent pegs?
(And where’s that Precious Moments Jael graphic?)
okrapod wrote:
His first major bad move.
With JP2, there was no precedent for a Pope abdicating into retirement. (That came with B16.)
JP2’s mismanagement of the Pedo Priest scandal is THE big stain on his record. There was also another factor in play:
JP2 came from Cold War Poland, where the government was hostile to the church. I understand making false accusations/insinuations of clergy sexual abuse was one of the government’s ways to discredit the church and its bishops. This would have “groomed” JP2 to automatically reject the pedo-priest accusations as more disinformation.
Muff Potter wrote:
Mila 18?
Isn’t that the one about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (and massacre)?
Which is one of the Leon Uris novels I’ve never read. Could you go into more specifics about the Polish peasant attitude and how it relates?