CJ Mahaney Withdraws From T4G2018: Rachel Denhollander Really Got to Them

Here is the letter sent to insiders.

My Friends,

Given the recent, renewed controversy surrounding Sovereign Grace Churches and me individually, I have decided to withdraw from the 2018 T4G conference.

This conference exists to serve pastors with the gospel and exalt the Lord Jesus. I want to do all I can to promote that purpose. Mark, Lig, Al and the other speakers should also be able to devote themselves to that purpose without the distraction of having to defend me or answer questions about Sovereign Grace Churches. They should be preparing their sermons, caring for their families, and serving their unique and strategic ministries.

I am responsible, where necessary and appropriate, to defend myself and Sovereign Grace, and this I continue to do as I have for the last several years. Sovereign Grace churches are led by godly men and filled with good and godly people who love Christ and his gospel. So that there is no lack of clarity on this: I am innocent of the allegations that have been made against me personally, and the recent, public characterizations of Sovereign Grace as a whole are absolutely false. I categorically reject the suggestion that I have ever conspired to cover up sexual abuse or other wrong-doing. No one should interpret my withdrawal as an acknowledgment of guilt. I withdraw out of care for my friends and for the sake of this conference and the cause of Christ.

I do not want this wonderful conference to become a context where questions about me or Sovereign Grace distract from the exaltation of Christ and him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2). I desire the run up to this conference to be filled with nothing but joyful anticipation. I want the experience of the conference to be the deep edification of pastors through preaching, singing, praying, conversation, laughter, food, and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.

T4G is sold out. In 2006, when we held our first conference, we met in a cramped hotel ballroom. Mark, Lig, Al and I did not imagine the conference ever reaching the Yum! Center – much less filling it. It is amazing and humbling. When the four of us are together, we fumble for the right words to describe all that has unexpectedly taken place in and through T4G. I think the psalmist best captures it when he writes, “This is the Lord’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes” (Ps. 118:23). I’m praying this T4G will be the best gathering in the history of this blessed conference.

CJ Mahaney

Comments

CJ Mahaney Withdraws From T4G2018: Rachel Denhollander Really Got to Them — 324 Comments

  1. “…buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”

    Yep, that’s it in a nutshell!

    Mahaney is circling the wagons and going into straight-up damage control. The cash cow’s about to run dry! Stay tuned!

  2. Root 66 wrote:

    “…buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”

    Yep, that’s it in a nutshell!

    Mahaney is circling the wagons and going into straight-up damage control. The cash cow’s about to run dry! Stay tuned!

    Is it bad that that was the line that leaped out and punched me between the eyes as well?

  3. “… buying as many books as one’s credit card allows …”

    Do you reckon Mahaney’s book on humility will still be for sale at the conference? After all, this was an example of just how humble he is by exiting so graciously.

    As I noted on the other TWW post on SGM today: False humility always tries to come across as taking the high road. Thousands of young reformers will buy it, as well as Mahaney’s book on humility which will probably be available at the conference.

  4. ““This is the Lord’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes” (Ps. 118:23).”

    And everybody shouted AMEN!

  5. Listen to CJ’s exact words:

    “……without the distraction of having to defend me or answer questions about Sovereign Grace Churches….”

    “I am responsible, where necessary and appropriate, to defend myself and Sovereign Grace…”

    Is CJ saying that it’s all about him? (sigh) He sounds focused on defending his own honor instead of giving a —— about making the changes necessary to protect children.

    Let’s keep the focus where it belongs—driving the wolves out of the church. If CJ isn’t willing to help with that—he’ll have a lot to answer to God for on judgment day. God isn’t going to accept all the excuses that CJ keeps inventing.

  6. “I want the experience of the conference to be the deep edification of pastors through preaching, singing, praying, conversation, laughter, food, and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.” (C.J. Mahaney)

    OK, this is a multiple choice question. Which item(s) of edification would not be found at a first century church gathering of pastors?

  7. Darn-I had been practicing Pete Seeger protest songs in preparation for my first protest at #T4G2018.

  8. I’m still going to stand on the sidewalk outside the YUM! Center. Here are my reasons:

    1) CJ was sat down in 2014 after Nathaniel Morales was convicted of sexual abuse. But he was brought back again and given a rapturous welcome in 2016. What’s to say the same thing doesn’t happen in 2020? Or next month, when, say, Al Mohler or Mark Dever recognize his presence from the platform? CJ is still a problem for them.

    2) CJ is still denying he covered up child abuse at CLC or in Sovereign Grace. That’s ridiculous on it’s face. He was the head pastor of CLC and the head of SGM. We know how SGM was all up in people’s business, and it makes no sense that he, of all people, didn’t know.

    3) Removing CJ from the speakers’ roster does not solve the intractable problem facing these “Reformed Baptists,” 9 Marxists, Acts 29ers, etc. That problem is they still think child sexual abuse is an internal matter. It’s not. The first yhing a pastor should do upon notification of abuse should be to call the police, not hold an internal investigation and CERTAINLY NOT force victims to apologize to their abusers.

    Plus, it’s not like some of the other plenary speakers don’t have issues. A woman named Jane was harassed by John MacArthur’s “Master’s College” after she was raped, as reported on this blog. And John Piper-his ideas about women range from odd (don’t be too muscular) to dangerous (put up with a season of abuse, then call the church, not the cops). The veiled contempt these men have had for women disqualifies them from speaking, IMHO.

    So I’m still going to Louisville. This is a no-brainer.

  9. “No one should interpret my withdrawal as an acknowledgment of guilt.”

    Nobody ever thought you were repenting or acknowledging wrong doing.

    Thus why it’s so sad that this conference is sold out!

    There is nothing God glorifying about “categorically rejecting the suggestion that I have ever conspired to cover up sexual abuse or other wrong-doing.”

    God has been the one behind “the recent, renewed controversy surrounding Sovereign Grace Churches and me individually” … using the very credible, thorough and integrity filled woman Rachel Denhollander.

    It must be an extra special awful to have such a public voice be not only a lawyer and from their own reformed camp but also a woman!! For this crowd of men, this is too much to handle. All signs that God is at work!!!

  10. Max wrote:

    ““This is the Lord’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes” (Ps. 118:23).”

    And everybody shouted AMEN!

    AMEN!!!!!!!

  11. T3G?

    The other three are pressing on, appearing at the John MacArthur shepherding conference going on right now. Live stream:

    https://www.shepherdsconference.org/

    “SHEPHERDS’ CONFERENCE 2018…join us March 7–9 as we explore the theme “I Will Build My Church” and discuss biblical and practical matters in the church. Our featured speakers are…Albert Mohler, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever…special musical guest will be Bob Kauflin.”

  12. Together For the “… buying as many books as one’s credit card allows …”

    Jerome wrote:

    T3G… Our featured speakers are…Albert Mohler, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever…special musical guest will be Bob Kauflin.”

    Bob Kauflin is a soverign grace ministries big wig, right?
    Place holder for C.J.?

  13. Jerome wrote:

    T3G?

    The other three are pressing on, appearing at the John MacArthur shepherding conference going on right now. Live stream:

    https://www.shepherdsconference.org/

    “SHEPHERDS’ CONFERENCE 2018…join us March 7–9 as we explore the theme “I Will Build My Church” and discuss biblical and practical matters in the church. Our featured speakers are…Albert Mohler, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever…special musical guest will be Bob Kauflin.”

    I think they are trying to distance themselves from Mahaney so they don’t get spattered when this whole thing finally hits the fan! They have to protect their brand-identity, too, you know?!?

  14. dee wrote:

    Darn-I had been practicing Pete Seeger protest songs in preparation for my first protest at #T4G2018.

    There’s still plenty to sing about!

  15. Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:

    And John Piper-his ideas about women range from odd (don’t be too muscular) to dangerous (put up with a season of abuse, then call the church, not the cops). The veiled contempt these men have had for women disqualifies them from speaking, IMHO.

    So I’m still going to Louisville. This is a no-brainer.

    I hope you make some signs with the weird stuff Piper says. That might even hurt the New Cal “We’re smarter than you” campaign to their own…

  16. Root 66 wrote:

    I think they are trying to distance themselves from Mahaney so they don’t get spattered when this whole thing finally hits the fan! They have to protect their brand-identity, too, you know?!?

    Based on Mahaney’s overly-defensive posture in the notice, I think he was asked to step down.

  17. Max wrote:

    Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:

    So I’m still going to Louisville. This is a no-brainer.

    Yep, there’s more than one rotten apple in that bushel.

    Speaking of ‘rotten apples’, my very first thought when I read about this was, “One down, three to go.” But that’s not very “biblical”(TM) of me, is it?

  18. @ Root 66:
    I take no pleasure in this at all. I just wish the whole bunch would repent and stop influencing the next generation with aberrant faith. We could use some real Gospel preachers in America.

  19. ishy wrote:

    Based on Mahaney’s overly-defensive posture in the notice, I think he was asked to step down.

    It’s hard to say at this point. There are none in the T4G cast of characters who are indispensable for the good of the movement. Perhaps he is just a good poker player – know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em. He has re-invented himself a few times – he will still be around.

  20. Mr. Mahaney. I am very confused. Specifically what is, the Lord’s doing? (Psalm 118)

    The Scriptures speak of the Stone, that the builders rejected. What stone is being rejected here? What does attendance at a TG4 conference have to do with the rejection of stones?

    Do you see yourself as a once rejected stone? Who are the builders, in an effort to give context to your quote? Are you not the Chief Builder of SGM? Is not TG4 a gathering of builders, and would be builders?

    Are you possibly confused in your teaching, in that you do not understand, of what you speak?

    Could it not be argued, the only thing the Lord has done, is to toss Larry Nassar’s butt in prison? And, in the most marvelous way? That, and embarrass SGM, in the media, once again?

    Nathan

  21. Root 66

    Yep, there’s more than one rotten apple in that bushel.

    Speaking of ‘rotten apples’, my very first thought when I read about this was, “One down, three to go.” But that’s not very “biblical”(TM) of me, is it?

    It’s very biblical!

    As Rachael Denhollander quoted in the bible (at the end of her detailed summary of all the SGM abuse) : “it’s time for judgement to start in the house of God” 1 Peter 4:17

    I smell damage control.

    It really would have blown up and the heat was already on all the guys sharing a stage & defending him.

    The reality is, that until his defenders and T4G co-founders admit wrong doing with regard to supporting their buddy C.J. nobody will be forgetting the biggest sex abuse scandal and cover up in Evangelicalism.

    It’s time for the other leaders to quit defending him. They need to call out his actions specifically. And repent for backing him up.

    Pressuring to step out behind the scenes to take off the heat is not going to cut it anymore.

    Christians are starting to wise up to these celebrity book writing cash lining pockets conferences that lack integrity.

    Rachel has pulled back the curtain and there is a lot of men behind it saying “there is nothing to see here!”

    It’s not working any longer.
    The gig is up. This isn’t the real gospel without repentance.

    Together for the “buying as many books as one’s credit card allows” … is idolatry.

  22. Due to a mild computer glitch, this post will serve as the post for today but I will try to put up something tomorrow.

  23. Love the *Lig* comments. Yeah, CJ , we know! You are best buddies with the boys. That is why you have lasted this long.

  24. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    T4BS. Together for Book Sales.

    You too? I wonder what kind of deals T4G has for the book sales? It’s a huge thing. If you look at the T4G website, they’re really clear on where you can go to get your free books, and they set times for going to get books (after the preaching, natch). The books are a big draw.

    But can I just say that it’s incredibly tacky for CJ to tell people to come and buy books when talking about something serious? It’s obvious he feels imposed upon and is not showing the seriousness one would expect when talking about child abuse.

    Bob Kauflin (Sovereign Grace’s music guy) is still leading the music at T4G18. They also make a big deal out of the music.

    And finally, I want to thank Rachael Denhollander from the bottom of my heart for putting herself out there and using her credibility to bring attention to CJ Mahaney and the Sovereign Grace abuse situation. She did not have to do that, but she did. She is so much braver than I will ever be and I have so much respect for her. I believe what she has said and wrote has changed things around! (Also her husband JJ deserves a hand too, because I know he probably cared for their children while Rachael was researching and writing.)

  25. “I categorically reject the suggestion that I have ever conspired to cover up sexual abuse or other wrong-doing.”–CJ Mahney
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    “I can’t be a conspirator because I’m not conspiratorial. Besides, everyone knows pastors don’t conspire.”

  26. I’m in agreement with ishy – Mahaney was asked (commanded) to bow out of T4G. There is nothing in his personae that allows me to believe he did so on his own, solely out of concern for others.

    Make no mistake, this is a blow to Mahaney & Mohler. Behind the scenes is a huge scramble and frantic efforts to credibly dissociate from the stink. It still hasn’t dawned on his enablers that the full story, as ably told by Mrs. Denhollander, is damning to all in Mahaney’s orbit – going back over a decade or more!

    All we can tell for sure right now is that Mahaney is radioactive. But the walking wounded have yet to be acknowledged or treated. Accountability is almost non-existent – with notable exceptions like Brent Detwiler, who has been attacked, mistreated & falsely accused for daring to tell the truth and standing up for the victims.

  27. Root 66 wrote:

    his is a multiple choice question. Which item(s) of edification would not be found at a first century church gathering of pastors?

    It would be cool if someone made a whip and showed-up at the book table and started flipping them over.

  28. SallyVee wrote:

    this is a blow to Mahaney & Mohler

    SBC hasn’t brought Mohler to task on his affiliation with Mahaney/SGM yet. It would be the right thing to do, but I don’t see it happening. Mohler is bullet-proof.

  29. The fact that he cracks a joke in the face of these allegations is horrific.

    Children were abused.

    Lives were torn apart.

    There is nothing comical about this.

  30. Mohler’s tweet today: “Why a morally-sane society must consider all the ways in which we can protect our children. #TheBriefing”

    How about protecting them in church?!

    When judgement begins, it will begin at the house of God first.

  31. PC wrote:

    Root 66 wrote:
    his is a multiple choice question. Which item(s) of edification would not be found at a first century church gathering of pastors?

    It would be cool if someone made a whip and showed-up at the book table and started flipping them over.

    When somebody admonishes you with “What Would Jesus Do?”, remind them that flipping out and throwing tables around is an option.”

  32. Max wrote:

    “… buying as many books as one’s credit card allows …”

    If I’m running up my credit card buying books, they’re going to be books I WANT to read, not Books I HAVE To Read.

  33. Most people when deceptive don’t come right out and lie but omit information, fail to answer the question, and reinterpret words to their own personal meaning. Let’s read what he said and believe him unless he gives us a reason not to (As that’s how we would like to be treated.) Here’s my brief analysis:
    So that there is no lack of clarity on this:
    Here he states the purpose of the following.
    I am innocent of the allegations that have been made against me personally,
    True, in the United States we are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. When accused of something it’s natural to respond “I didn’t do X.” So here he didn’t clearly say he didn’t do it. Note here he limits it to those made against him personally.
    and the recent, public characterizations of Sovereign Grace as a whole are absolutely false.
    Which “public characterizations”? “As a whole”- we say when part of it is true. As in, “As a whole you did a good job but…” So what parts are true? What about the accusations against certain individuals (parts) including leaders?
    I categorically reject the suggestion that I have ever conspired to cover up sexual abuse or other wrong-doing.
    True, he categorically rejects the suggestion. This is a statement about what he is doing right now but not about what happened. The statement “I categorically tell you I am Superman” would be true (that’s what I’m telling you) but would not correspond to reality.
    No one should interpret my withdrawal as an acknowledgment of guilt.
    This is not a statement of fact but what he’s saying no one should do. Why shouldn’t they? Because he hasn’t acknowledged his guilt?
    I withdraw out of care for my friends and for the sake of this conference and the cause of Christ.
    This looks like a true statement but we would have to know what he means by “the cause of Christ”.

    He fails to achieve his purpose “So that there is no lack of clarity on this:” Everything he says could be true and most or all (I haven’t read them carefully enough to compare of them in detail to this analysis here) of Rachel’s, or some others, accusations also could be true. There is no reliable denial of the accusations. To be clear was his purpose and it would’ve been easy to achieve. This indicates he’s being deceptive.

  34. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Maybe have Biker Xenu accompany you?

    There really is a woman who lives in SoCal who used to be Xenu at the protests because she was small enough to fit in the costume. I wonder if she still has it?

  35. [ here is a more clearly formatted version of my above comment.]
    Most people when deceptive don’t come right out and lie but omit information, fail to answer the question, and reinterpret words to their own personal meaning. Let’s read what he said and believe him unless he gives us a reason not to (As that’s how we would like to be treated.) Here’s my brief analysis:
    CJ:”So that there is no lack of clarity on this:”
    Here he states the purpose of the following.
    CJ:”I am innocent of the allegations that have been made against me personally,”
    True, in the United States we are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. When accused of something it’s natural to respond “I didn’t do X.” So here he didn’t clearly say he didn’t do it. Note here he limits it to those made against him personally.
    CJ:”and the recent, public characterizations of Sovereign Grace as a whole are absolutely false.”
    Which “public characterizations”? “As a whole”- we say when part of it is true. As in, “As a whole you did a good job but…” So what parts are true? What about the accusations against certain individuals (parts) including leaders?
    CJ:”I categorically reject the suggestion that I have ever conspired to cover up sexual abuse or other wrong-doing.”
    True, he categorically rejects the suggestion. This is a statement about what he is doing right now but not about what happened. The statement “I categorically tell you I am Superman” would be true (that’s what I’m telling you) but would not correspond to reality.
    CJ:”No one should interpret my withdrawal as an acknowledgment of guilt.”
    This is not a statement of fact but what he’s saying no one should do. Why shouldn’t they? Because he hasn’t acknowledged his guilt?
    CJ:” I withdraw out of care for my friends and for the sake of this conference and the cause of Christ.”
    This looks like a true statement but we would have to know what he means by “the cause of Christ”.

    He fails to achieve his purpose “So that there is no lack of clarity on this:” Everything he says could be true and most or all (I haven’t read them carefully enough to compare of them in detail to this analysis here) of Rachel’s, or some others, accusations also could be true. There is no reliable denial of the accusations. To be clear was his purpose and it would’ve been easy to achieve. This indicates he’s being deceptive.

    Sent from my iPad

  36. @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
    If these men had an ounce of the character and courage Rachael lives out, we would not have this mess in the first place. Jesus lovers look much different than this crowd of bullies.

  37. SallyVee wrote:

    Brent Detwiler, who has been attacked, mistreated & falsely accused for daring to tell the truth and standing up for the victims.

    Brent is no saint. He was part of the heavy handed leaders of SGM and hurt many people as well.

  38. @ Nathan Priddis:
    I am also confused. If C. J. Mahaney did nothing wrong, why is he still not the “head” of SGM, and why did SGM change its name??? Given that “branding” is all the rage these days, why would what to “change your brand”, unless there is a “negative” associated with your brand???

  39. Interesting to see how the T4G website reflects this change. The home page says nothing about it, but does continue to include this quote: “Together for the Gospel 2018 offers this: the culture may call churches to conform, but God calls us to be Holy. Set apart. Sanctified. Distinct.” What about being Holy, Set apart, Sanctified, Distinct when it comes to abuse?

    Mahaney has been entirely removed from the lists of seminars, panels, and gatherings. He shows up only under the list of Plenary Talks with a link to the letter Dee copied above (I compared the two versions – they are identical). See http://t4g.org/announcement/.

    In addition to all the comments here on TWW, look at the failed opportunities:
    1) In the letter Mahaney could have called for a 3rd party investigation and called for churches to do better with respect to abuse. He did not.
    2) Mohler, Duncan, and Dever (and perhaps Mahaney?) could have issued a joint statement about the reasons for this change and a call for churches to embrace transparency and accountability with respect to abuse. They did not.
    3) The Mahaney time slots could have been filled with competent experts in abuse to teach pastors about things like mandatory reporting laws and more appropriate ways to handle abusers and victims. They were not.
    4) This could have been a golden opportunity for T4G to turn a corner. Instead, they made some administrative tweaks to their schedule and pressed on almost as if nothing happened.
    5) The other celebrities in all the various venues could make their own personal statements about all of this. As far as I can tell, none of have have done so.

  40. I wonder if CJ will still attend and be seated up front with all the speakers just like he did previously when he wasn’t supposed to be a speaker? I remember Todd sharing a picture of this on his blog.

    https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/10/4665/

    Someone shared this link on another blog where RachelDenhollander tells why she spoke up.

    http://amymantravadi.com/2018/01/24/heroes-among-us-brought-larry-nassar/

    One thing she shared in this video was this statement:

    Need to realize. When you are dealing with a prominent public figure the only thing that will make that organization stop backing them is a public outcry.

    Maybe a “public outcry” is starting to work?

  41. Nathan Priddis wrote:

    Mr. Mahaney. I am very confused. Specifically what is, the Lord’s doing? (Psalm 118)

    The Scriptures speak of the Stone, that the builders rejected. What stone is being rejected here? What does attendance at a TG4 conference have to do with the rejection of stones?

    Do you see yourself as a once rejected stone? Who are the builders, in an effort to give context to your quote? Are you not the Chief Builder of SGM? Is not TG4 a gathering of builders, and would be builders?

    Are you possibly confused in your teaching, in that you do not understand, of what you speak?

    It’s simple, Nathan. C.J. Mahaney is a New Calvinist. New Calvinists are famous for taking Biblical text out of context to support this or that.

    Psalm 118 is a precious prophecy of the humiliation and exaltation of the Lord Jesus. It has nothing to do with T4G2018, anybody who attends there, or anything that goes on there. As C.J. noted in the previous sentence “we fumble for the right words.” Yep, this was another fumble.

  42. Steve240 wrote:

    Here is a video of Kauflin “worshipping” Mahaney.

    Well, if that song was delivered in a service honoring Mahaney, it has to be one of the most blasphemous things I’ve heard in the context of church worship. Was that a service devoted to recognizing and honoring Mahaney somewhere?

  43. SallyVee wrote:

    ************ T4BS *************

    We need T-shirts!

    It would be fun to wear them to T4G. I wonder how long it would be before we were asked to leave. Maybe if they were polo shirts with a little T4BS logo over the pocket.

    And we might want to add a tagline so they know that BS refers to book sales. They might think it referred to something else…

    My guess is that CJ is hacked that he won’t be getting a speaking fee, so he’s comforting himself by thinking about the book sales. Which raises the question, will CJ’s books be given away, and sold? Will CJ show up, and sit in the crowd, or on the front row? CJ isn’t speaking, but is he still making bank?

  44. SallyVee wrote:

    All we can tell for sure right now is that Mahaney is radioactive. But the walking wounded have yet to be acknowledged or treated. Accountability is almost non-existent – with notable exceptions like Brent Detwiler, who has been attacked, mistreated & falsely accused for daring to tell the truth and standing up for the victims.

    True, re: Brent, but I don’t think he has ever owned his role in the shepherding aspect.

  45. dee wrote:

    Darn-I had been practicing Pete Seeger protest songs in preparation for my first protest at #T4G2018.

    Seeger? (Baez, Dylan…)
    I thought they were just for old lefties like me.
    You surprise me.

  46. Max wrote:

    It’s simple, Nathan. C.J. Mahaney is a New Calvinist. New Calvinists are famous for taking Biblical text out of context to support this or that.

    And then there’s Genesis 3:16 in the ESV 2016….

    “I don’t like how that verse doesn’t say what I want it, too.”
    “Well, we’ll just change it then and declare it unable to be ever changed again.”

  47. It’s amazing how brazen wolves in sheepskin are these days “…and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.” He’s saying I’m a sheep (or a shepherd’s shepherd), and he’s simultaneously flaunting his fangs in the same letter. He denies the horrific things he’s done and then advertises being a wolf fully expecting the sheep or shepherds to be gullible and is having fun with how dumb they are. i.e. No child of God is going to tell the sheep/shepherds to max out their credit cards to buy their books. In fact wouldn’t a real man of God either give the books away (if they were truly meant to be edifying/help the sheep/shepherds) or at least sell them at cost? But no C.J. wants you to buy them to line their pockets and he tells them to accumulate a lot of credit card debt/interest to pay off to do so.

  48. This is just the beginning … The Lord is going to bring FULL justice to those that did not repent from their evil deeds. T4G and CJ’s “henchmen” will have to go down with the Mahaney ship or quickly distance themselves from him. Watch closely to what they say … My bet is that they don’t come rushing to his defense. Too risky for their book sales!

    Lord Jesus … help them fully repent. Restore what only you can restore!

    Rachel, please continue listening to the Lord! Thank you for people like you and Brent who are faithful friends to those whose hearts are hardened!

  49. Sister wrote:

    But no C.J. wants you to buy them to line their pockets and he tells them to accumulate a lot of credit card debt/interest to pay off to do so.

    All in the spirit of sola scriptura, of course…

  50. Max wrote:

    Mohler’s tweet today: “Why a morally-sane society must consider all the ways in which we can protect our children. #TheBriefing”
    How about protecting them in church?!
    When judgement begins, it will begin at the house of God first.

    These sorts of constant hypocritical comments from Mohler infuriate me. He did not give a darn about SGM children. #Mohlerisafraud

  51. Have you noticed that, if you say the right Evangelical or Reformed talking points, you can fairly enough get away with anything.

    “I do not want this wonderful conference to become a context where questions about me or Sovereign Grace distract from the exaltation of Christ and him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2).”

    So godly. Reminds me of Ravi Zacharias’ confession of “impropriety.” Oh, is that what the kids are calling today?

    This was perhaps my favorite: “I want the experience of the conference to be [of] deep edification … and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.” Nothing like maxing out your credit card, getting further into debt, for the “glory” of God. Great stewardship sermon material right there.

  52. CJ’s letter says, “I am responsible, where necessary and appropriate, to defend myself and Sovereign Grace, and this I continue to do as I have for the last several years.”

    How my heart aches to have had him and everyone else say, “I am responsible, where necessary and appropriate, to defend those who have been abused, hurt and who have had God misrepresented to them because of what they suffered at the hands of “the church”, and this I continue to do as I have for the last several years.”

    Dear Jesus, we know YOU care. Now only if those who claim to be ministers of the gospel would care, too.

  53. Shepherds Conference… “I will build my church.”

    Likely less about Jesus building His church and more about Dever wielding his keys. Something is glaringly wrong when the emphasis and proclaimed success story is on the wielding of keys instead of on a redeeming Christ.

    Can’t wait to tune in.

  54. Max wrote:

    Well, if that song was delivered in a service honoring Mahaney, it has to be one of the most blasphemous things I’ve heard in the context of church worship. Was that a service devoted to recognizing and honoring Mahaney somewhere?

    They put some type of a dinner for Mahaney when Mahaney decided to give the Sr. Pastor position at Covenant Life Church to Josh Harris. Here is another “act” put on at that same dinner:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im_cwlWqOd4

    If you click on the SGM Survivors name in YouTube you will find other videos of what happened that night.

    Here is another video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSyaeGJ_yCQ

    Seeing these videos and you hear people questioning that SGM/SGC became a personality cult. These sure make it clear that it was IMO.

  55. Somewhereintime wrote:

    This is just the beginning … The Lord is going to bring FULL justice to those that did not repent from their evil deeds. T4G and CJ’s “henchmen” will have to go down with the Mahaney ship or quickly distance themselves from him. Watch closely to what they say … My bet is that they don’t come rushing to his defense. Too risky for their book sales!

    Lord Jesus … help them fully repent. Restore what only you can restore!

    Rachel, please continue listening to the Lord! Thank you for people like you and Brent who are faithful friends to those whose hearts are hardened!

    Dear Lord Jesus I hope.

  56. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    I just think they all should go out of business. Why they have any spiritual credibility is beyond me. The “protect and promote” Mahaney thing has gone on for years. Look what it took to just have him off stage this year. An articulate nationally known young woman victim lawyer speaking up. They can’t marginalize her without serious blowback. They are all long time spiritual frauds, IMO, and have nothing to teach anyone.

  57. Lydia wrote:

    The “protect and promote” Mahaney thing has gone on for years.

    It’s worked pretty well for them so far. They will not change until the consequences of not changing become unbearable for them.

  58. Root 66 wrote:

    “…
    Mahaney is circling the wagons and going into straight-up damage control. The cash cow’s about to run dry! Stay tuned!

    Yes, it is udder destruction.

    Maybe some of these guys will actually have to work for a living. In our churches, all of our pastors do.
    J.M.

  59. Earlier, regarding this thread, I tweeted:

    Is this not déjà vu from years ago? He backs away. He’s “innocent.” His defenders defend him. He tries to come back years later. He’s embraced. He’s confronted. He backs away. He’s “innocent.” His defenders defend him. He tries to come back years later. He’s embraced. He’s confronted. He backs away.

    Enough already.

  60. Lydia wrote:

    These sorts of constant hypocritical comments from Mohler infuriate me.

    Interesting timing for a piece from Mohler on protecting children.

  61. I just thought I’d dig back a few years in the Internet, specifically to the 2014 Together For The Gospel Conference Guide. You can find it here: http://t4g.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/T4G-Conference-Guide-2014.pdf

    In that document, you’ll notice that the usual suspects are there, the same guys as this year: Anyabwile, Chandler, Dever, DeYoung, Duncan, MacArthur, Mohler, Piper and Platt. And then there’s this note, about the missing CJ Mahaney on page 5:

    There are some changes in the lineup of speakers. CJ Mahaney
    will not be addressing us. While this saddens us, we pray for CJ and
    for his continued pastoral ministry at Sovereign Grace Church of
    Louisville. We thank God for the many messages we have heard from
    him at previous T4G’s and in so many other settings over the years,
    and we pray that God will continue to grow him and increase his
    usefulness as the days and years go by.

    The issue that caused Mahaney to drop out/be dropped in 2014 has not been resolved, but he was invited back in 2016 to rapturous praise from Al Mohler and applause and cheers from the crowd. And he was invited back again this year. It says volumes about the guys who run the Together For The Gospel shindig that they’ve had to drop Mahaney not once, but twice. In their minds, the very real possibility that Mahaney may have covered up child abuse at his church and within Sovereign Grace seems not to matter in the least. That calls into question their judgment.

  62. ishy wrote:

    And then there’s Genesis 3:16 in the ESV 2016….

    “I don’t like how that verse doesn’t say what I want it, too.”
    “Well, we’ll just change it then and declare it unable to be ever changed again.”

    The old Calvary Chapel honchos* teach the same crapola about Eve and they used KJV to do it long ago.

    *the old guard from the days when Papa Chuck was as revered and obeyed as Chairman Mao was in a bygone China.

  63. ishy wrote:

    Based on Mahaney’s overly-defensive posture in the notice, I think he was asked to step down.

    This was my thought too. I also note the complete (and unsurprising) lack of humility or concern for victims. I am pleased to see him step down from the conference, but I hope that the pressure stays on the T4G guys long enough to demand a response other than silence or bad jokes.

  64. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    These sorts of constant hypocritical comments from Mohler infuriate me.
    Interesting timing for a piece from Mohler on protecting children.

    They do it on purpose. Mohler always has good timing. He even called Racheal Denhollander’s husband to offer support. It was a political movebecause it was all over the media. Yet, he cared nothing for SGM victims and even dismissed them as rebelling against “strong” leadership.

    Who is going to believe he would protect and promote a pedophile enabler/protector when he makes such phony virtue signaling statements to the world? It’s all good if you just say the right things at the right time.

    The man is a spiritual fraud.

  65. Left unaddressed is the question of speakers fees. Specifically, is CJ Mahaney still slated to get his cut of what I assume is a significant amount?

    I would like to see some transparency from T4G. Make public the financial payouts from your conference. I am certain the world would be shocked.

  66. “…buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God…This is the Lord’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes…”

    C.J., you have crossed the line into the realm of The Onion. This is high parody. I want to thank you, sir, for demonstrating once and for all just what you’re all about, and demonstrating, quite succinctly, that Jesus has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

  67. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    T4BS. Together for Book Sales.

    Is that URL taken? It would make a great spoof site. For someone with time on their hands.

    *Cough* twitter @TG4BS

  68. The Denhollanders have clearly demonstrated that when churches and their networks no longer have a moral compass, the legal compass comes into play.

  69. Thersites wrote:

    Mahaney: “T4G is sold out.”

    A surprisingly succinct description of T4G.

    I was thinking “moneychangers in the Temple” and Simon the sorcerer from Acts 8, who offered the apostles money for the gift of the Holy Spirit. Seriously, even though there is a live stream, they are selling the Word of God for money in so many ways: conference attendance, books, and their own version of the Bible, the ESV.

  70. The heart of the matter remains CJ Mahaney is an unrepentant blackmailer and co-conspirator in covering up CSA. Those who have enabled him in the past continue to do so by allowing this proclamation of his innocence. Glad he is out but his statement is woefully inadequate.

  71. The fact he withdrew is good news by itself. The often quoted statement here says it all: “I want the experience of the conference to be the deep edification of pastors through preaching, singing, praying, conversation, laughter, food, and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”
    The meeting is not about Jesus, but about Mammon passing hands from low level pastors to higher level ones, just like a multi-level marketing scheme which is what this is. I can hardly believe that this neo-pharisee admitted it so candidly. This situation must have him really nervous so he is letting the truth slip instead of the usual religious empty platitudes.
    The real Jesus plainly states that you cannot serve God and Mammon. You will love one and despise the other. But we rich Americans just do not want to hear that. So our itching ears go after any teacher that tells us lies we want to hear. The original Pharisees had this same problem and they killed Jesus to silence His message. Nothing has changed in 2 millennia…

  72. “buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”

    I’m not that old, as I am a millennial, but I remember when Preachers, especially ones connected to the SBC, would preach about how it was sinful to buy on credit and be in debt to others.

    I don’t have an ESV edition of the Bible, did it leave out the parts about usury, the camel through the eye of the needle, Christ clearing the temple, Mammon, etc…?

  73. Happymom wrote:

    The fact that he cracks a joke in the face of these allegations is horrific.
    Children were abused.
    Lives were torn apart.
    There is nothing comical about this.

    Nothing comical at all. People don’t matter to these guys. Their bottom line is their own celebrity and the money. Disgusting. I know we don’t always see justice in this world, but one day it will be handed down. My preference would be sooner than later. How these men can lie, cheat, steal, and cover up and sleep at night is beyond me!

  74. Happymom wrote:

    The fact that he cracks a joke in the face of these allegations is horrific.

    Children were abused.

    Lives were torn apart.

    There is nothing comical about this.

    This tells us all we need to know about CJ and his buddies. The consequences of his actions and inactions were as serious as it gets.

  75. Max wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    Here is a video of Kauflin “worshipping” Mahaney.
    Well, if that song was delivered in a service honoring Mahaney, it has to be one of the most blasphemous things I’ve heard in the context of church worship. Was that a service devoted to recognizing and honoring Mahaney somewhere?

    That leaves a sour taste in my mouth, too, Max.

  76. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Specifically, is CJ Mahaney still slated to get his cut of what I assume is a significant amount?

    Good question.

    Will he have books selling so folks can, as he recommends, max out their credit cards?

  77. The “leaders in the know” have continued to ignore Peter Lumpkins authored SBC resolution to their hazard.
    @Al Mohler, @Mark Dever

    ======================

    https://christianreforms.wordpress.com/2013/10/12/sbc-leaders-ignoring-abuse-decree/

    SBC leaders ignoring abuse decree
    Georgia pastor Peter Lumpkins says SBC agency heads “cannot and should not” align with individuals or organizations in ways that harm the reputation of all Southern Baptists.

    By Bob Allen

    A Georgia pastor and blogger says denominational officials are ignoring a resolution adopted at this year’s Southern Baptist Convention calling for a zero-tolerance policy toward the sexual abuse of children in churches.

    Peter Lumpkins, who blogs at SBC Tomorrow, proposed the 2013 SBC resolution on sexual abuse of children and amended a committee-drafted version from the floor urging denominational leaders and employees to “utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.”

    In comments posted Oct. 10, Lumpkins said high-profile SBC leaders are carrying on with business as usual in the kind of practices that first prompted his concern.

    He criticized Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary President Danny Akin forpromoting an upcoming collegiate conference featuring C.J. Mahaney, the former head of Sovereign Grace Ministries named in a lawsuit alleging what some call the biggest evangelical sex-abuse scandal to date.

    He also lamented that others appearing on the same program include Russell Moore, the recently elected president of the SBC Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission.

    “What are we saying to the public, Southern Baptists?” Lumpkins queried. “What are we saying to abused victims, Southern Baptists? What are we saying to the assembled messengers at the 2013 Southern Baptist Convention, Southern Baptists?”

    Lumpkins also called out Southern Baptist Theological Seminary for offering academic credit toward a seminary degree for participants in a “Pastors College” open to members of Sovereign Grace churches.

    Notoriety from the class-action lawsuit filed in Maryland prompted Mahaney to withdraw from Together for the Gospel, a biennial preaching conference that he organized with Southern Seminary President Albert Mohler and two others beginning in 2006.

    Sovereign Grace Ministries, however, supported Mahaney in a “note of thanks” when he stepped down as president of the 80-church church-planting network in April. The SGM council of elders released a statement in August affirming Mahaney as “a qualified minister of the gospel” and dismissing accusations against him as slander.

    Recently Sovereign Grace Ministries welcomed its 16th Pastors College class and the second in Louisville, Ky., where the ministry headquarters relocated in part to strengthen connections with Southern Seminary.

    “The first year proved to be a rich one with much blessing coming from our new location, including our degree-completion program with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary,” the group reported on its website.

    Last November, Sovereign Grace Ministries announced the program allowing Pastors College alumni to pursue a master of divinity degree from Southern Seminary without disrupting their church ministry.

    The program allows transfer of up to 35 credit hours from the Pastors College to Southern Seminary, more than a third of the way toward the 94 hours required for the M.Div. in Christian ministry. Flexible learning options including online courses and brief intensive classes make it possible for Sovereign Grace pastors to complete their studies without moving to Louisville.

    Lumpkins termed the program an “in your face, Southern Baptists” decision. He said paid denominational employees “cannot and should not be empowered to jeopardize either our entities or our name by forging friendly liaisons with people or organizations who pose probable liability to us.”

    Moore, who taught theology and served as dean of the School of Theology and senior vice president for academic administration at Southern Seminary before starting work as head of the Southern Baptist Convention’s public policy and religious liberty agency in June, has appeared alongside Mahaney before.

    In August 2012, Moore and Mahaney were part of a panel discussion and gave plenary addresses at an inaugural Strengthening Your Marriage in Ministry conference held in the Southern Seminary chapel.

    Mahaney wrote the foreword for Moore’s 2009 book, Adopted for Life: The Priority of Adoption for Christian Families & Churches.

    Lumpkins submitted his first-ever SBC resolution in May after reading graphic allegations in a second amended complaint alleging that Mahaney, a popular Calvinist speaker with a strong following in the SBC, colluded to cover up sexual and physical abuse of numerous children in SGM churches from 1982 until the present.

    The original resolution, reworded by a committee before being adopted by annual meeting messengers in June, urged “denominational servants, entity leaders and our trustee boards to sever all ties, whether official or unofficial, with any evangelical organization, fellowship of ministers, and/or celebrity leader who, presently or in the past, is facing criminal and/or civil litigation for neglecting moral or legal obligations to protect the little children whom Jesus said suffer to follow Him.”

  78. Mercy wrote:

    I know we don’t always see justice in this world, but one day it will be handed down.

    I don’t think God recognizes man’s statutes of limitations.

  79. Jarrett Edwards wrote:

    I don’t have an ESV edition of the Bible, did it leave out the parts about usury, the camel through the eye of the needle, Christ clearing the temple, Mammon, etc…?

    Jesus said that man can’t serve two masters. CJ just made it blatantly obvious which master he serves.

  80. In other news, Covenant Life Church had a members meeting Sunday night, and I’m dying to know whether they “voted”on their name change.

  81. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Left unaddressed is the question of speakers fees. Specifically, is CJ Mahaney still slated to get his cut of what I assume is a significant amount?

    I would like to see some transparency from T4G. Make public the financial payouts from your conference. I am certain the world would be shocked.

    DITTO!

  82. Ron Oommen wrote:

    He’s still in the pantheon…er…photo on their FB page.
    https://www.facebook.com/TogetherfortheGospel/

    Ugh…people commenting on Facebook here are still begging for tickets to go even though it’s sold out, after all of this! It reminds me of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah, when, even after being struck blind by the angels, still groped in their darkness to find them!
    It is horrible to see how blinded and deceived people are by these guys.

  83. T4G is sold out. In 2006, when we held our first conference, we met in a cramped hotel ballroom. Mark, Lig, Al and I did not imagine the conference ever reaching the Yum! Center – much less filling it. It is amazing and humbling. When the four of us are together, we fumble for the right words to describe all that has unexpectedly taken place in and through T4G. I think the psalmist best captures it when he writes, “This is the Lord’s doing and it is marvelous in our eyes” (Ps. 118:23). I’m praying this T4G will be the best gathering in the history of this blessed conference.

    So said C.J. Mahaney in his statement.

    My take on this is the possibility that they would have a number of people cancel their attendance and ask for refunds. What an embarrassment that would be to the leadership putting this on. That certainly could have been a possibility. They wouldn’t want to risk their income coming in would they.

    One the other hand my guess is that most of the people attending this event have their head in the sand and it would be doubtful they would cancel attending.

  84. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Left unaddressed is the question of speakers fees. Specifically, is CJ Mahaney still slated to get his cut of what I assume is a significant amount?
    I would like to see some transparency from T4G. Make public the financial payouts from your conference. I am certain the world would be shocked.

    This would ruin the ambience. :). I told the story here before of a church friend asking my stepfather to put up a T4G attendee years ago who could not afford the hotel. He drove about 700 miles one way to come but was dead broke with a wife and child at home. My stepdad put him up, fed him and even gave him money for the trip home but also could not help but tell him the money would be better spent on the needs of his family.

    Let a guy like that see speakers fees. Would it matter? I don’t know. It’s very cultish.

  85. Steve240 wrote:

    My take on this is the possibility that they would have a number of people cancel their attendance and ask for refunds … On the other hand my guess is that most of the people attending this event have their head in the sand and it would be doubtful they would cancel attending.

    The great multitude of New Calvinists who idolize the “Fab Four” would fall in the latter category. They will still line up for Mahaney’s signature and a selfie with the Apostle if he shows up. If so, a list of conference attendees should be circulated throughout Christendom to see if a pastor near you was at the gathering of new reformers in Louisville – so you can avoid his church.

  86. Root 66 wrote:

    It is horrible to see how blinded and deceived people are by these guys.

    They have been sent a strong delusion that they should believe the lie.

  87. World magazine just published an article on Rachel. They had a notice in it about her research on SGM. The article said more about it will be published.

  88. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    I don’t think God recognizes man’s statutes of limitations.

    In the Kingdom of God, there is no statute of limitations on child abuse. Instead, a pile of millstones is waiting for those who offend the little ones and those who cover their abuse.

  89. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Georgia pastor Peter Lumpkins says SBC agency heads “cannot and should not” align with individuals or organizations in ways that harm the reputation of all Southern Baptists.

    There is no doubt that Pastor Lumpkins had Al Mohler’s affiliation with Mahaney/SGM in mind when he penned his resolution “On Sexual Abuse Of Children”, which was approved at the SBC national meeting in 2013. http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1230/on-sexual-abuse-of-children

    Mohler has apparently ignored that resolution which states “we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse.” Dr. Mohler not only ignored that warning, but helped Mahaney set up shop in Louisville, and continued to promote him through T4G. Mahaney and his church are now members of the SBC!

    Pastor Lumpkins tried. The big dogs won. But God …

  90. Lydia wrote:

    Mohler always has good timing. He even called Racheal Denhollander’s husband to offer support.

    To which Mr. Denhollander should have replied “Dr. Mohler, if you really want to help support Rachael’s mission, sever ties with Mahaney & SGM!”

  91. “and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”
    Really??? This has to be a hoax! No one would say such a thing and think that would not come back to haunt you. No 3 friends would let you say that and not immediately think, “that one is going to come back and haunt us”.
    They couldn’t be that insensitive, could they? Wait, the three of them, maybe so.

  92. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Interesting to see how the T4G website reflects this change. The home page says nothing about it, but does continue to include this quote: “Together for the Gospel 2018 offers this: the culture may call churches to conform, but God calls us to be Holy. Set apart. Sanctified. Distinct.” What about being Holy, Set apart, Sanctified, Distinct when it comes to abuse?

    Mahaney has been entirely removed from the lists of seminars, panels, and gatherings. He shows up only under the list of Plenary Talks with a link to the letter Dee copied above (I compared the two versions – they are identical). See http://t4g.org/announcement/.

    In addition to all the comments here on TWW, look at the failed opportunities:
    1) In the letter Mahaney could have called for a 3rd party investigation and called for churches to do better with respect to abuse. He did not.
    2) Mohler, Duncan, and Dever (and perhaps Mahaney?) could have issued a joint statement about the reasons for this change and a call for churches to embrace transparency and accountability with respect to abuse. They did not.
    3) The Mahaney time slots could have been filled with competent experts in abuse to teach pastors about things like mandatory reporting laws and more appropriate ways to handle abusers and victims. They were not.
    4) This could have been a golden opportunity for T4G to turn a corner. Instead, they made some administrative tweaks to their schedule and pressed on almost as if nothing happened.
    5) The other celebrities in all the various venues could make their own personal statements about all of this. As far as I can tell, none of have have done so.

    These are excellent points!!!

  93. Steve240 wrote:

    My take on this is the possibility that they would have a number of people cancel their attendance and ask for refunds. What an embarrassment that would be to the leadership putting this on. That certainly could have been a possibility. They wouldn’t want to risk their income coming in would they.

    It’s also highly likely that it’s mostly sold out because SBTS required or professors gave extra credit to go. I got extra credit at both Liberty and SEBTS for going to the SBC conventions. I doubt the students would ask for refunds. So this whole “we’re sold out because we’re super popular” may just be a facade, just like Driscoll having Mars Hill buy all his books to put him on the bestseller lists.

  94. It’s International Women’s Day and while our nations in principle have equality for all, in some areas we know that isn’t happening.

    So a salute to the strong women who run this blog, the strong women who comment here and women everywhere who work against injustice, be it in the workplace or the worship place.

    I heard a great quote by a First Nations female pilot (both groups are not well represented in aviation). Her dad was a pilot as well and when she told him she had no role models he said “If you can’t find one, become one”

  95. Forrest wrote:

    Happymom wrote:

    The fact that he cracks a joke in the face of these allegations is horrific.

    Children were abused.

    Lives were torn apart.

    There is nothing comical about this.

    This tells us all we need to know about CJ and his buddies. The consequences of his actions and inactions were as serious as it gets.

    If I remember correctly, Al Mohler cracked totally inappropriate jokes a few years ago as well.

    Mark, Al, and Lig have been supporting CJ publicly forever; without ever investigating anything.

  96. Muff Potter wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Darn-I had been practicing Pete Seeger protest songs in preparation for my first protest at #T4G2018.
    Seeger? (Baez, Dylan…)
    I thought they were just for old lefties like me.
    You surprise me.

    I had long hair in which I wore a bandana, wire framed glasses, bell bottoms with sewn on embroidered hems, and a serious expression that signaled that I was fighting for world peace.

  97. Geoff Smith wrote:

    Jerome wrote:
    Mark, Lig, Al
    Those guys must be “Mark, Lig, [and] Al,” CJ’s good buddies.

    He’s letting you know he is still part of the in group who will continue to protect him for reasons unknown, well, partially unknown. The $200,000 to SBTS helped.

  98. Root 66 wrote:

    Ugh…people commenting on Facebook here are still begging for tickets to go even though it’s sold out, after all of this!

    And it will be livestreamed… for free! I guess it’s worth a few hundred bucks for some people to be in the same room as their idols… I mean, their favorite celebrity preachers.

    I watched a bit of Mohler at the Pastor’s Conference last night. Seems like the big question is, who’s got the Keys to the Kingdom? His answer: We do! And he managed to toss in some mild Catholic bashing.

  99. @ ishy:
    I have always wondered about this. Especially after I saw the academic credit they were looking at for sgm pastors College.

  100. Stunned wrote:

    CJ’s letter says, “I am responsible, where necessary and appropriate, to defend myself and Sovereign Grace, and this I continue to do as I have for the last several years.”

    How my heart aches to have had him and everyone else say, “I am responsible, where necessary and appropriate, to defend those who have been abused, hurt and who have had God misrepresented to them because of what they suffered at the hands of “the church”, and this I continue to do as I have for the last several years.”

    Dear Jesus, we know YOU care. Now only if those who claim to be ministers of the gospel would care, too.

    THIS.

    AMEN.

  101. Ken A wrote:

    “and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.”
    Really??? This has to be a hoax! No one would say such a thing and think that would not come back to haunt you.

    The young reformers love their idols when they crack funnies like this – so unbecoming of a man of the cloth. No one has accused Mahaney of being very smart – he obviously wasn’t thinking when he uttered that in the context of the seriousness of the issue at hand. These folks are taking the church for a ride – they love to see those credit cards whipped out to buy their books.

  102. Geoff Smith wrote:

    Those guys must be “Mark, Lig, [and] Al,” CJ’s good buddies.

    Mary Mohler, Al’s wife, calls Mark, Lig, and C.J. “Al’s little playgroup.” If that doesn’t creep you out, nothing will!

  103. Max wrote:

    The great multitude of New Calvinists who idolize the “Fab Four” would fall in the latter category.

    “Fab Four”?
    “IT’S LIKE BEATLEMANIA!”
    (Mohlermania? Devermania? Mahaneymania? Screaming Teenybopper Groupies and all?)

  104. Lydia wrote:

    My stepdad put him up, fed him and even gave him money for the trip home but also could not help but tell him the money would be better spent on the needs of his family.

    “But the needs of my family are SECULAR and FLESHLY! This Is SPIRITUAL and GODLY!”

  105. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Fab Four”?
    “IT’S LIKE BEATLEMANIA!”

    Yep. Mohler/Duncan/Dever/Mahaney. … the Fab Four of Together for the Gospel (Gospel = Calvinism to them). They are real-life celebrities in New Calvinist ranks, much bigger than the Beatles!

  106. Max wrote:

    They are real-life celebrities in New Calvinist ranks, much bigger than the Beatles!

    And didn’t John Lennon once put his foot in his mouth about The Beatles are bigger than God?

  107. Lisa Belliveau wrote:

    In other news, Covenant Life Church had a members meeting Sunday night, and I’m dying to know whether they “voted”on their name change.

    Lisa,the vote on the CLC name change was delayed out of respect for Rachel Denhollander. The elders first want to discuss the implications of her statements.

  108. Deb wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    Mohler’s highly inappropriate joking was at T4G2016, and it demonstrated his stone cold heart.

    And “Al” spoke volumes with that joke IMO. It gave a much clearer picture of how seriously he takes abuse than any of his carefully crafted and expediently timed statements. I feel the same way about CJ’s credit card joke.

    I’m so glad the SGM abuse victims are getting attention again. It gives me hope that attitudes are slowly changing.

  109. Paul wrote:

    I am innocent of the allegations that have been made against me personally,
    True, in the United States we are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. But that doesn’t mean he didn’t do it.

    “JUST BECAUSE YOU DID IT DOESN’T MEAN YOU’RE GUILTY!”
    — billboard ad for a criminal defense attorney

    P.S. Three words: O. J. SIMPSON.

  110. Lydia wrote:

    That describes my high school uniform. Seriously!

    Another conforming non-conformist. I recall back then everyone looked like they came out of the same factory.

  111. Caroline wrote:

    And “Al” spoke volumes with that joke IMO. It gave a much clearer picture of how seriously he takes abuse than any of his carefully crafted and expediently timed statements. I feel the same way about CJ’s credit card joke.

    Yep. Like Deb said above, it exposes their hardened hearts.

  112. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    I watched a bit of Mohler at the Pastor’s Conference last night. Seems like the big question is, who’s got the Keys to the Kingdom? His answer: We do!

    I knew it!

    For the record…if the sheep are misbehaving, it’s not a sheep issue as much as it a preaching issue. It’s time for the preacher to ask, “Why isn’t my expert exegesis effective to the point of profoundly changing the hearer? Why is there no power in my preaching?”

  113. Law Prof wrote:

    I would like to see some transparency from T4G. Make public the financial payouts from your conference. I am certain the world would be shocked.

    So would I. All that need be done is an overhaul and revamp of the 501(c)(3) laws as applied to religious outfits.

  114. I believe that Rev. Mahaney continues to gain some advantage by focusing on the term “conspiracy.” That term implies a type of scheme and certain actions in people’s minds such that, even if technically appropriate, does not resonate with some well meaning people.

    I would encourage people to focus on what was done. SGM had a policy to handle sexual abuse “in-house.” SGM did not report sexual abuse to legal authorities. SGM discouraged families from reporting the abuse to authorities. SGM attempted to coerce forgiveness between the sexual abusers and their victims and families. SGM did not warn churches where sexual abusers in SGM later went. SGM counseled families to remain silent about abuse, so that more abuse occurred. And SGM used disciplinary procedures and threats toward the families of victims who would not agree to follow SGM leaders’ advice.

    And Rev. Mahaney was the head “Apostle”, the titular head of SGM, and the Senior Pastor at CLC. And other pastors there were his relatives. He helped to develop all of these policies, and he saw and knew that these policies were implemented.

    This is what needs to be said about Rev. Mahaney. And these are the charges to which the Rev. Mahaney needs to respond.

    Vague references to “I deny that I conspired to cover up …” do not get to the heart of the matter, and they allow Rev. Mahaney to avoid examination of the particulars. This should be allowed no further.

    If Rev. Mahaney says that he is going to continue to defend himself and SGM and CLC, he must be required to address these specifics. Otherwise, he is not really engaged in a defense. He is only issuing blanket, non-specific denials, that are designed to obscure as much as they are designed to sound strong and authoritative.

    And Rev. Mahaney’s defenders, likewise, should have to answer these specifics, and not hide behind a general denial.

  115. Lydia wrote:

    I told the story here before of a church friend asking my stepfather to put up a T4G attendee years ago who could not afford the hotel. He drove about 700 miles one way to come but was dead broke with a wife and child at home. My stepdad put him up, fed him and even gave him money for the trip home but also could not help but tell him the money would be better spent on the needs of his family.

    One of the saddest and most poignant things you’ve regaled us with.
    I wonder if the guy ever woke up from the mirage-dream-world he was living in.

  116. 2006 T4G blog post “Confronting CJ” by Mark Dever:

    http://t4g.org/2006/02/cj-confronted/

    [CJ had expressed he felt it was such an undeserved honor to be numbered with the other three, as the most he could do would be to sit at their feet asking questions]

    Dever: “it’s time to confront you now in open posts. You SAY that you’re no good for this blog, except to ask the rest of us to answer your questions in public. I beg you, in your humility, to consider that you may be wrong in this conclusion…you have been in pastoral ministry longer than Al, me & Ligon combined…you have learned pastoral wisdom that you could share with us”

    That’s what passes as ‘public confrontation’ amongst the T4G set? Reminds me of the ‘You Are Worthy!’ shouts of assurance at Highpoint Memphis.

  117. Caroline wrote:

    feel the same way about CJ’s credit card joke.

    Give us all of the money you have, and all of the money you plan to have?

  118. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    She is the perfect example of why most evangelical churches won’t let women speak from the pulpit. She combines hard truth with class and blows them all out of the water.

    As I’ve quipped here before, these kinds of guys are scared-you-know-whatless of the primal power of women.

  119. ishy wrote:

    Root 66 wrote:

    I think they are trying to distance themselves from Mahaney so they don’t get spattered when this whole thing finally hits the fan! They have to protect their brand-identity, too, you know?!?

    Based on Mahaney’s overly-defensive posture in the notice, I think he was asked to step down.

    That’s the same thought I had.

  120. Bridget wrote:

    BoughtTheField wrote:
    Lisa,the vote on the CLC name change was delayed out of respect for Rachel Denhollander.
    Seriously? Please . . .

    Also, overlooked because of the phenomenon called Rachel Denhollander, Brent Detwiler recently posted a detailed calendar of events surrounding P.J.’s involvement (as young adult) in his father’s dealing with the harassment claims against him.

    The blog post is titled: New & Indisputable Evidence Proves P.J. Smyth Knew All About Father’s Violent Beating of Boys – He & Pastor Continue to deceive Covenant Church Despite My Appeals

    Two very clearly documented issues in one week has evidently served to derail CLC’s agenda.

  121. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Ken F said: Interesting to see how the T4G website reflects this change. The home page says nothing about it, but does continue to include this quote: “Together for the Gospel 2018 offers this: the culture may call churches to conform, but God calls us to be Holy. Set apart. Sanctified. Distinct.”

    Holy = holier than thou
    Set apart = isolationist (listen only to your trusted leaders)
    Sanctified = sin-leveling sin-sniffers
    Distinct = like the Pharisees

  122. Sister wrote:

    It’s amazing how brazen wolves in sheepskin are these days “…and buying as many books as one’s credit card allows, all for the glory of God.” He’s saying I’m a sheep (or a shepherd’s shepherd), and he’s simultaneously flaunting his fangs in the same letter. He denies the horrific things he’s done and then advertises being a wolf fully expecting the sheep or shepherds to be gullible and is having fun with how dumb they are. i.e. No child of God is going to tell the sheep/shepherds to max out their credit cards to buy their books. In fact wouldn’t a real man of God either give the books away (if they were truly meant to be edifying/help the sheep/shepherds) or at least sell them at cost? But no C.J. wants you to buy them to line their pockets and he tells them to accumulate a lot of credit card debt/interest to pay off to do so.

    And I can hear a man’s voice in the back of my mind saying in exasperation, “Geez, it was just a joke! Lighten up! Doesn’t anybody have a sense of humor anymore?”

    ‘Cause that’s how gaslighting works.

  123. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Max wrote:

    The great multitude of New Calvinists who idolize the “Fab Four” would fall in the latter category.

    “Fab Four”?
    “IT’S LIKE BEATLEMANIA!”
    (Mohlermania? Devermania? Mahaneymania? Screaming Teenybopper Groupies and all?)

    Mahania

  124. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Caroline wrote:
    feel the same way about CJ’s credit card joke.

    Give us all of the money you have, and all of the money you plan to have?

    “Hold up your checkbooks so we can read the routing numbers for Auto-Tithing. If you don’t, Our Security Cameras are so good WE WILL KNOW WHO YOU ARE!”
    — Grinning Ed Young, Megapastor (of Seven-Day Sex Challenge fame)

  125. Augustine wrote:

    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    I watched a bit of Mohler at the Pastor’s Conference last night. Seems like the big question is, who’s got the Keys to the Kingdom? His answer: We do!

    I knew it!

    For the record…if the sheep are misbehaving, it’s not a sheep issue as much as it a preaching issue. It’s time for the preacher to ask, “Why isn’t my expert exegesis effective to the point of profoundly changing the hearer? Why is there no power in my preaching?”

    More like… “Why isn’t my expert eisegesis effective…?”

  126. Muff Potter wrote:

    So would I. All that need be done is an overhaul and revamp of the 501(c)(3) laws as applied to religious outfits.

    Last time someone in Congress tried anything resembling that (an investigation of crooked televangelists), he found out the hard way that GAWD’s Special Privileges(TM) was a hotter third rail than Social Security.

  127. Once upon a time, there were four little boys, three went to seminary. And they were each assigned very hazardous duties…

  128. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    The heart of the matter remains CJ Mahaney is an unrepentant blackmailer and co-conspirator in covering up CSA.

    Forgive my ignorance, I am late to this party. I LOVE what Rachael Denhollander is doing. Could you please point me in the direction of the Mahaney/Tomzcak blackmail story? thx

  129. Lydia wrote:

    How much you wanna bet Rachael is a comp.

    I would be shocked if she wasn’t. I think that part of the story is awesome. Some might call it “soft complementarianism,” but I think it’s great that she can speak so clearly, bravely and gently within this framework.

  130. anon in the EFCA wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    How much you wanna bet Rachael is a comp.

    I would be shocked if she wasn’t. I think that part of the story is awesome. Some might call it “soft complementarianism,” but I think it’s great that she can speak so clearly, bravely and gently within this framework.

    What are you talking about? She is not speaking gently. And, it shouldn’t matter if she is comp. or not.

    A woman should be heard because she speaks the truth(.) The fact that some men will only listen if a woman presents truth in a way that is acceptable in the comp world is a blight on those men, not on women who aren’t complementarian.

  131. Bridget wrote:

    What are you talking about? She is not speaking gently. And, it shouldn’t matter if she is comp. or not.

    That’s a fair observation.

    I do believe that her strong words still maintain a gentle tone. Her husband feels the same way.

    “While sarcasm feels way better, you won’t ever regret being gentle, reasonable, and gracious in your speech. It may bear unexpected fruit. Of course, I only know that from observing Rachael, not personal experience.” (Jacob Denhollander, Tweet on 2/17/18)

    I must have misunderstood why you brought up Rachael’s likely comp. position. Please help me understand your comment.

    I agree that truth is truth, regardless of your comp/egalitarian viewpoint. And I also agree that it doesn’t always have to be communicated by how we/some define gentleness. There are times for more forcefulness. My comment relates to the fact that IF Rachael holds a comp. position, I think that all of her bravery and truth speaking testify to the fact that this can still fit into a comp. viewpoint.

  132. anon in the EFCA wrote:

    Please help me understand your comment.

    Sorry Bridget. Lydia raised Rachael’s likely comp position, not you. I thought Lydia was replying to my comment.

  133. I think C.J. might be realizing that his schtik of crazy fake smiling with bouncy nodding of head has run its course.

    His schtik served him well for decades within his narrow world, and it must be a rude awakening that most people, people who do no rely upon him for paycheck and/or recognition, think he’s not such a big deal and aren’t afraid to call his actions for what they truly represent.

  134. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Max wrote:

    They are real-life celebrities in New Calvinist ranks, much bigger than the Beatles!

    And didn’t John Lennon once put his foot in his mouth about The Beatles are bigger than God?

    HUG:. Lennon said that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus. But I think his statement was misunderstood. That is why he attempted to clarify it but the damage has already been done.

  135. BoughtTheField wrote:

    Lisa Belliveau wrote:

    In other news, Covenant Life Church had a members meeting Sunday night, and I’m dying to know whether they “voted”on their name change.

    Lisa,the vote on the CLC name change was delayed out of respect for Rachel Denhollander. The elders first want to discuss the implications of her statements.

    I would venture to say that they’re just waiting for the publicity to die down. Then they will institute the name change.

  136. Can anyone remember what the joke (I don’t know if that is the right term, but maybe snide comment is better) which Mohler made at the 2016 T4G? I think it was something about the protesters outside who were asking people to consider the victims of sexual abuse when they rose to their feet to applaud someone who may have possibly turned his back on the victims.

    Anyone?

  137. Stunned wrote:

    an anyone remember what the joke (I don’t know if that is the right term, but maybe snide comment is better) which Mohler made at the 2016 T4G? I think it was something about the protesters outside who were asking people to consider the victims of sexual abuse when they rose to their feet to applaud someone who may have possibly turned his back on the victims.

    Anyone?

    Here’s the entire introduction by Albert Mohler, as transcribed by myself:

    Albert Mohler introducing C.J. Mahaney, Together For The Gospel 2016

    He has modeled endurance. It would be very easy to get up here and say, “C.J. Mahaney is going to speak for us,” but I think faithfulness in my responsibility this afternoon in introducing him is to say that we know he has demonstrated endurance in the face of an incredible trial and he has been a model of endurance for us.

    Kindness. I have never heard C.J. Mahaney say anything unkind about anyone and that has been a great gift to me in friendship.

    Consistency. C.J.’s preaching the same gospel he’s always preached. He’s preaching the scripture, in season and out of season, in a remarkable consistency over time and space, as his ministry moved from Maryland to here in Louisville, Kentucky where he’s the pastor of the Sovereign Grace church. He continues to exert massive influence through the reach of Sovereign Grace Ministries.

    Steadfastness. Biblically defined as being immovable, where the Christian man should be immovable, in the faith, in the truth, in Christ. C.J. has been, from the very moment I first met him, an encourager. And for that, I am just incredibly thankful. I have never left a conversation with C.J. discouraged. We sometimes, as friends do, had to talk about things that are in themselves discouraging because sometimes the world around us presents us things that are discouraging, but he’s never been less than encouraging.

    The final word I want to use is joy. To know C.J. is to know a man whose joy is in Christ, whose joy is in the gospel and a man through whom joy is so very, very evident. Part of the reason for that, humanly speaking, is his wife, Carolyn, and the fact that they together now have three now married daughters, one son and 12 grandchildren.

    I told C.J., when I was getting ready to introduce him, I decided to Google to see if there was anything on the Internet about him. [audible laughter] And that’s where I discovered—having discovered this on the Internet [more audible laughter] that C.J. cheers for the Washington Redskins and the Washington Nationals and against the Dallas Cowboys, the New York Yankees, and Duke Basketball [loud laughter]. That is a section missing from any biographical material on me. [very loud laughter] But I know it to be true because I read it about C.J.. [lighter laughter]

    What I know about C.J. is C.J. loves Christ, loves the gospel and I know that in this room, C.J. Mahaney, who is blessed by God with a wonderful church and a wonderful movement, by a wonderful wife and a wonderful family, in this room, has 10,000 friends. Let’s look forward to hearing the word of God from C.J. Mahaney. [applause]

    Hope that helps.

  138. Remnant wrote:

    His schtik served him well for decades within his narrow world, and it must be a rude awakening that most people, people who do no rely upon him for paycheck and/or recognition, think he’s not such a big deal and aren’t afraid to call his actions for what they truly represent.

    Good insight for some of the celeb clergy. Big fish in a small world, “their” small world.

  139. Stunned wrote:

    Can anyone remember what the joke (I don’t know if that is the right term, but maybe snide comment is better) which Mohler made at the 2016 T4G?

    I believe there was a post about this on TWW at that time.

  140. Lydia wrote:

    How much you wanna bet Rachael is a comp.

    If I were a gambler, I’d bet money on it!
    I do believe she has her limits, though. And she has the courage to call out anyone who crosses the line in the sand.

  141. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    So would I. All that need be done is an overhaul and revamp of the 501(c)(3) laws as applied to religious outfits.

    Last time someone in Congress tried anything resembling that (an investigation of crooked televangelists), he found out the hard way that GAWD’s Special Privileges(TM) was a hotter third rail than Social Security.

    That was Chuck Grassley, and I sincerely regret he didn’t stand by his guns and take down the crooks.

  142. @ anon in the EFCA:

    I was. My position is that comp doesn’t matter in a blessed alliance between believers in marriage. But the movement in those circles sold it to thousands as part of the Gospel.

    I think we probably have no idea how many young women Rachel has influenced whether as a prophet or as a Survivor.

  143. Abigail wrote:

    World magazine just published an article on Rachel. They had a notice in it about her research on SGM. The article said more about it will be published.

    I am really hoping they hold to that

  144. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Meghan wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/march/cj-mahaney-withdraws-t4g-conference-sgm-rachael-denhollande.html
    I wish they leaned on him harder, and addressed Rachael’s evidence more

    Cee Jay’s a CHRISTIAN Head Apostle, and Rachael’s just a Woman.

    Truth. I didn’t have a lot of Hope but they’re first article addressing Sovereign Grace was pretty to the pointNancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    @ Lydia:
    RD was bluntly honest, with style and grace.

    Lydia wrote:

    @ anon in the EFCA:
    Totally agree. My guess from what I have read is her and her husband face this together and he supported her. That is a blessed Alliance. Mutuality.

    Tweet from Jacob, 3/3: I get complimented a lot for supporting Rachael and not being jealous of the platform she has been given. While I genuinely appreciate the kind words, I think it shows us a lot about our expectations of men. I doubt many women get praised for not being jealous of their husbands. And I don’t mean that in snarky way, directed at men in the public sphere who have supportive wives! It’s just evidence of an idea that when a man does it he is “letting” his wife do something, but it is just the expectation for women.

    It’s not a criticism, just an observation.”

  145. Lisa Belliveau wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    That was my question. Is this for real?

    It’s for real that they said it. Now if people actually believe that’s why they postponed the vote, well I can’t help them.

  146. Darlene wrote:

    BoughtTheField wrote:
    Lisa Belliveau wrote:
    In other news, Covenant Life Church had a members meeting Sunday night, and I’m dying to know whether they “voted”on their name change.
    Lisa,the vote on the CLC name change was delayed out of respect for Rachel Denhollander. The elders first want to discuss the implications of her statements.
    I would venture to say that they’re just waiting for the publicity to die down. Then they will institute the name change.

    Wouldn’t be shocked.

  147. Meghan wrote:

    I am really hoping they hold to that

    With Al Mohler on the board of directors? World will not do much with this until Mohler is ready to let it happen.

  148. About comp and Rachael (and her husband).

    I do not think that comp will totally go away. It has been traditional for a long time, it works for some people, a lot of people are put off by women’s lib perceived excesses, and then there are ‘bible’ verses. If it turns out that Rachael can popularize a picture of comp which is not inconsistent with an image of female power within a comp-ish setting, then that will be a step in the right direction. And when I glanced at what her husband was writing at SBTS I think that is part of what would be consistent with his paper, granted that I did not read every word of it.

    So, the comp thing may be yet one more side effect of Ms Rachael’s impact (to use a modernized version of an old southern form of address of respect for a woman.)

    I think that both sides of the comp/non-comp argument have some people who are committed to ‘my way or the highway’ on this issue, and I think that Lydia’s idea in comment above in which she said “My position is that comp doesn’t matter in a blessed alliance between believers in marriage.” is a far far better position than rigid idealism on either side of the issue. I vote for freedom and more freedom for couples as they do what works for themselves. And I vote for fewer and fewer people, including pastors, who try to micro-manage other people’s lives and choices.

  149. okrapod wrote:

    And I vote for fewer and fewer people, including pastors, who try to micro-manage other people’s lives and choices.

    Wouldn’t that be lovely!!!

  150. Somewhereintime wrote:

    It’s a worship event for them… worship of man.

    I long for a day when thousands of preachers are genuinely “together for the gospel” rather than to celebrate a pet theology. It continues to amaze me that much of 21st century preaching does not focus on the centrality of the Cross of Christ. We’ve lost our Christocentric bearing in the American church. Yes, we desperately need a “gospel coalition” which will focus on Christ not man. The “gospel” we are serving up in many corners of Christendom is not scaring the devil much, nor leading lost folks to salvation in Christ. We don’t need to proclaim doctrines of grace – we need to preach the Cross to lead people to a direct experience of Grace, an encounter with the living of Christ. The disciples which are produced by both are distinctly different.

  151. okrapod wrote:

    . I vote for freedom and more freedom for couples as they do what works for themselves. And I vote for fewer and fewer people, including pastors, who try to micro-manage other people’s lives and choices.

    Amen!

  152. Celebrity pastors simply will not be held accountable by their peers. It is a simple fact.

    I have been battling a Celebrity pastor for 10 years who has make over $3Million dollars off of false testimonies regarding my sister who committed suicide last year. He still refuses to keep his promise and still is speaking at national conferences. The reality is that many people would rather make idols of men than confront them and call them to accountability.

    Fifteen Months Later – “The Story Behind the Story of Roberta Langella and Jim Cymbala” – Part 4
    https://theauthorofmyfaith.org/2018/03/08/fifteenmonthslater/

    http://www.jaxpastorsconference.com/conference-information/speakers/

  153. @ Steve
    I have no idea.

    Here is an interesting link about how much exhibitors will be paying for space at T4G.

    http://t4g.org/exhibitors/

    And then there’s this…

    T4G Bookstores

    T4G offers 2,000+ titles in a curated bookstore covering 70,000 square feet across two locations in The Galt House Hotel and the Main Concourse of the Yum! Center, where our main sessions gather. Lifeway, our bookstore partner, has negotiated handsome discounts with the publishers that are only available during the three-day conference.

  154. Deb wrote:

    “T4G offers 2,000+ titles in a curated bookstore covering 70,000 square feet across two locations in The Galt House Hotel and the Main Concourse of the Yum! Center, where our main sessions gather. Lifeway, our bookstore partner, has negotiated handsome discounts with the publishers that are only available during the three-day conference.”

    Every reformed publishing house in America will be set up there – this is a huge event for them! Crossway, of course, is the biggest dog of the pack.

    LifeWay has been an enabler for the reformed movement within SBC ranks – the average Southern Baptist is not aware of this. Millions of non-Calvinist SBC members blindly trust their publishing resource to promote only mainline SBC belief and practice in the products they sell.

  155. okrapod wrote:

    I do not think that comp will totally go away.

    Nor do I. But I think that it will no longer enjoy the absolutism of a non-negotiable doctrine thundered out of Horeb (so to speak) by the various brands of Protestant Evangelicalism.

  156. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Last time someone in Congress tried anything resembling that (an investigation of crooked televangelists), he found out the hard way that GAWD’s Special Privileges(TM) was a hotter third rail than Social Security.

    Forgot all about that HUG, true enough.
    It would be hard enough to do (religious non-profit financial reform) in the blue states. But in the red states below the Mason Dixon line?
    You might as well try and…(fill in the blank)…

  157. Yep. That information and doing some quick number crunching led me to ask my question. I can’t find anything about their financials online.

    @ Deb:

  158. Muff Potter wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    I do not think that comp will totally go away.

    Nor do I. But I think that it will no longer enjoy the absolutism of a non-negotiable doctrine thundered out of Horeb (so to speak) by the various brands of Protestant Evangelicalism.

    The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

  159. Max wrote:

    We’ve lost our Christocentric bearing in the American church. Yes, we desperately need a “gospel coalition” which will focus on Christ not man. The “gospel” we are serving up in many corners of Christendom is not scaring the devil much, nor leading lost folks to salvation in Christ. We don’t need to proclaim doctrines of grace – we need to preach the Cross to lead people to a direct experience of Grace, an encounter with the living of Christ. The disciples which are produced by both are distinctly different.

    Good point. It’s classic Bait-and-Switch, and yes, of course, the results are vastly different. Just like Koolaide (sugar, paint, water) produces vastly different results from, for example, freshly squeezed orange juice.

  160. Max wrote:

    Steve wrote:

    Does anyone know if T4G is a nonprofit?

    I assume so. It’s certainly a non-prophet!

    LOL. Very clever (and very true!)

  161. okrapod wrote:

    And I vote for fewer and fewer people, including pastors, who try to micro-manage other people’s lives and choices

    My vote as well.

  162. Max wrote:

    Yes, we desperately need a “gospel coalition” which will focus on Christ not man. The “gospel” we are serving up in many corners of Christendom is not scaring the devil much, nor leading lost folks to salvation in Christ.

    But which version of Christ? Every group that calls itself Christian has a different take.
    As it continues to schism you’ll see more and wilder sects arise, each one getting back to the “real church”.
    All you can do is put out warning signs and care for the victims.
    What’s going on though is more information about choosing where you go.

  163. okrapod wrote:

    I do not think that comp will totally go away. It has been traditional for a long time, it works for some people, a lot of people are put off by women’s lib perceived excesses, and then there are ‘bible’ verses.

    I think this is a great point. It all comes down to freedom. I don’t want the government to block anyone’s ability to live the life they believe they should live. This is happening in the world today, but thank God we have gotten rid of the majority of that in the US. (If I’ve overlooked glaring instances of this still going on here, I’m happy to be proven wrong).

    I also don’t want religious leaders using their claimed authority to tell people their lives should look just like theirs. There is no principle for what every life should look like. There is only following the path to God that each of us was born with. If that involves a “traditional” family with the mom staying home with the kid and the dad working, great! If the mom wants to be a CEO or a soldier or a lumberjack, great! The funny thing about the “traditional” thing is that back when everyone lived on farms, the average woman did TONS of manual labor that would have been unheard of in the 1950s, which is the era of perfect comp families that these people hold up.

    I think the science of gender differences is fascinating. My wife thinks it is pointless. Am I wrong to be fascinated by it (honest question). The scientist who study it are always quick to point out that there is more variation within groups than between groups.

    We will never get rid of comp in practice, but we should DESTROY the theology that says it is the only Biblical ™ way to live.

  164. 9Marxists Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, and Matt Schmucker chuckling about an unnamed outfit Schmucker now runs that “quietly supports various ministries”:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VNz714D6kw&t=25s

    Super creepy.

    It’s been suggested that the T4G brand is operated via this Gospel Projects entity:

    https://www.taxexemptworld.com/organization.asp?tn=2290610

    But book sales $$$ presumably goes through convention bookstore operator Lifeway, the publishers, and then the authors get their royalties. It’s a “curated” bookstore at the T4G convention.

  165. Max wrote:

    The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other …

    Including Homosexually?
    That was a historical pattern in many male-supremacist societies —
    “Women for breeding stock, Men for love, Boys for pleasure.”

  166. Bridget wrote:

    A woman should be heard because she speaks the truth(.) The fact that some men will only listen if a woman presents truth in a way that is acceptable in the comp world is a blight on those men, not on women who aren’t complementarian.

    I refuse to categorize at all. For Christ’s sake – literally, for Christ’s sake – let the text speak without man-designed categories or structures imposing on it and distorting the text’s intention. It continues to astound me how the curse is actually proving itself a reality.

    Case in point…”and your DESIRE shall be for your husband and he shall RULE over you…”

    DESIRE = yearning after and reaching out toward. (Maybe, her desires will now be for her husband instead of her God, i.e., tendency to make her husband her god?) RULE OVER = Dominate.

    “Yearning after,” versus “ruling over” – hard not to see these as two DIFFERENT tendencies. Neither are good but both are fixed in the gospel…where we SHOULD BE united, “together…for the gospel.”

    Just saying.

  167. Max wrote:

    Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    C.J. Mahaney … in this room, has 10,000 friends … [applause]

    And that, friends, is a snapshot of just how far and how many have drifted from what is right.

    I picture a bunch of plastic smiles and fake applause. Sycophants idolizing their leaders, some hoping that perhaps one day, they too, can share the limelight on stage with their hero.

  168. Lydia wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    . I vote for freedom and more freedom for couples as they do what works for themselves. And I vote for fewer and fewer people, including pastors, who try to micro-manage other people’s lives and choices.

    Amen!

    Second Amen! But I can say with a good amount of certainty that this will not happen in the majority if New Calvinist churches. Control and micro-managing is how they keep their members. It is how their leaders stay in power.

  169. @ Jerome:

    That video…*shudders* Visceral reaction.

    One of the major reasons I left SEBTS and the SBC is because of 9Marks and deep, personal experiential and intellectual disagreement with their philosophy and theology on pretty much everything regarding church, humanity, God. What it does with and to people….

    I also left because of SGM support and ignorance.

    (And for many other reasons).

    P.S. Rachael is *awesome*!!! She is a force to reckoned with.

  170. Max wrote:

    The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

    Max, I’m going to disagree with you on this one. I think there will always be women in the patriarchal movement. Some women seem hardwired to be part of that environment, and will not allow themselves to think outside the narrow box of patriarchy that confines them. In fact, they would say that they are not confined at all and feel quite secure and happy. Different strokes for different folks.

  171. @ Steve:

    Hi, Steve. I read the story of your sister. I’m so very sorry. It deserves to be told. Roberta deserves for it to be told.

  172. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):

    It’s been suggested that the T4G brand is operated via this Gospel Projects entity:

    https://www.taxexemptworld.com/organization.asp?tn=2290610
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    why in the world should entities like T4G be given tax-exempt status?
    have they declared themselves churches?

    loophole city

    i host a prayer meeting in my living room. i think i’ll declare us a church and my house is the church building so i can get tax-exempt status, too.

  173. Jerome wrote:

    9Marxists Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, and Matt Schmucker chuckling about an unnamed outfit Schmucker now runs that “quietly supports various ministries”:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VNz714D6kw&t=25s

    Super creepy.

    Yes, creepy. Lots of ego stroking going on there. So smug and filled with hubris, this 9MARKS Movement. At one point Matt Schmucker was asked why they changed their name to 9Marks from ‘The Center for Church Reform’. Duh. That’s a no-brainer. Their former name sounds something right out of Marxist thinking. More like ‘The Center for Thought Reform and Mind Control’. Though of course, they would never say such a thing directly.

  174. @ emily honey:
    It was hard to watch even five minutes of that 9Marks video. I can’t imagine attending a church or seminary where I would have to hear that kind of drivel on a regular basis. I’m glad that you got out.

  175. Darlene wrote:

    Max wrote:

    The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

    Max, I’m going to disagree with you on this one. I think there will always be women in the patriarchal movement. Some women seem hardwired to be part of that environment, and will not allow themselves to think outside the narrow box of patriarchy that confines them. In fact, they would say that they are not confined at all and feel quite secure and happy. Different strokes for different folks.

    I think you are correct there, Darlene. It’s something that defies logic but it happens nonetheless.

  176. Darlene wrote:

    Max, I’m going to disagree with you on this one. I think there will always be women in the patriarchal movement. Some women seem hardwired to be part of that environment, and will not allow themselves to think outside the narrow box of patriarchy that confines them. In fact, they would say that they are not confined at all and feel quite secure and happy. Different strokes for different folks.

    Yes. It is rather like the walls around the rich people’s clusters of houses, which seem to be really popular around here. We like to joke about how glad we are that somebody walled those people in since now we are safe from them. Of course, their idea of the wall is entirely different.

  177. How about the part at 04:15 where Schmucker tells about his and Dever’s generous neighbor, a serial entrepreneur, whom they’d impressed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VNz714D6kw&t=257s

    Schmucker: “To make a long story short he said why don’t you start something that does that and he offered to give us $100,000 a year for three years in row to see if we could get it off the ground. To this day I’m not sure he’s a believer.”

    There are tax documents showing this neighbor among the officers of Dever’s ‘Center for Church Reform’ (later rebranded as 9Marks).

  178. These program services brought in $1,671,940 in revenue for the Gospel Projects organization in 2016. Only $5,090 is noted under Contributions/Grants

  179. Max wrote:

    The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

    Indeed Max, just like what became of poor old Abner Hale in James A. Michener’s novel Hawaii.

  180. In 2016, for T4G + CROSS conferences (Gospel Projects Form 990):
    Registration: $993,253
    Sponsorships: $240,700
    Exhibitor Fees: $162,839
    Other Conference Revenue: $146,962
    Meal Plan: $81,750

  181. Darlene wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    . I vote for freedom and more freedom for couples as they do what works for themselves. And I vote for fewer and fewer people, including pastors, who try to micro-manage other people’s lives and choices.

    Amen!

    Second Amen! But I can say with a good amount of certainty that this will not happen in the majority if New Calvinist churches. Control and micro-managing is how they keep their members. It is how their leaders stay in power.

    That is what I have found so interesting about the Denhollanders and the NeoCal/Reformed movement they are a part of. How they choose to live their life is none of my business. But it’s an interesting aspect to consider since comp Doctrine has been marketed as the gospel.

  182. Lydia wrote:

    Gospel Project? Is that the name of the nonprofit?

    “The Gospel Project” is a Bible study series by Lifeway. Not surprisingly, many of the links in its site go to TGC articles.

    “Gospel Projects” appears to be something different. Its address is 525 A Street, N.E. Washington, D.C. 20002. This is the same address as Capitol Hill Baptist Church, pastored by Mark Dever. This is the same address used for sending donations to 9Marks (from the 9Marks donation page: “Checks should be made payable to ‘9Marks’ and mailed to: 9Marks, 525 A Street NE, Washington, DC 20002.”)

    There is another ministry with that same address: http://thefrontporch.org/about/meet-the-brothers-on-the-front-porch/. Thabiti Anyabwile is one of the big players in 9Marks and TGC. “The Front Porch National Conversation” is sponsored by T4G, Lifeway, and TGC. It’s not clear to me how T4G can sponsor anything if they are not something like a real organization.

    I’m normally not bad at finding things on the web, but I have not been able to find anything about “Gospel Projects.” Yet it seems to be bankrolling T4G and other New-Calvinist things per info provided by Jerome and Chemie. None of these sites mention “Gospel Projects.” Something does not smell right…

  183. Chemie wrote:

    These program services brought in $1,671,940 in revenue for the Gospel Projects organization in 2016. Only $5,090 is noted under Contributions/Grants

    You can’t tell much from a revenue number without subtracting all the expenses. Just sayin. And I am no fan of this group.

  184. Lydia wrote:

    That is what I have found so interesting about the Denhollanders and the NeoCal/Reformed movement they are a part of. How they choose to live their life is none of my business. But it’s an interesting aspect to consider since comp Doctrine has been marketed as the gospel.

    I firmly believe they use the word “gospel” to mean “God-ordained hierarchy”. Not just through complementarianism, but through unquestioned and absolute elder/pastor leadership. They came up with ESS not just to control women, but to create a way to deny the model Jesus offered of ministering as the “least of these”.

    There are no servant leaders in Christ’s kingdom but Him.

    I’m not sure a lot of members of New Calvinist churches realize that their leaders don’t even follow Christ.

  185. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Something does not smell right…

    Agree. One of the things that came up on old survivors site when CJ was busy fleeing CLC was his “conference” business located there. that was part of the negotiation of him leaving and taking that with him which ended up in Louisville in an East End office Park not far from where I live.

    No one has really been able to piece all this together. I think it has several branches.

  186. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Frankly, the name Gospel Projects threw me off. I am quite familiar with LifeWay Gospel Project. It was quite the controversy when it came out. I find it extremely interesting that the boys have a non-profit of the same name.

  187. Bridget wrote:

    You can’t tell much from a revenue number without subtracting all the expenses. Just sayin. And I am no fan of this group.

    Good Point – The Gospel Projects 990 is available for 2015 (when it gained nonprofit status), and 2016.
    -2015 Gross Revenue: $1,066,144
    -2015 Expenses: ($318,105)
    -2015 Net Revenue: $748,039
    ______________________________
    -2016 Gross Revenue: $1,680,996
    -2016 Expenses: ($2,131,574)
    -2016 Net Revenue: ($450,581)
    ______________________________
    Note that Gospel Projects supports two main conferences: the CROSS missions conferences, held on odd years at the Louisville Convention Center, and the T4G conference, held on even years at the KFC Yum! Center.

    An interesting note: T4G was held at the convention center through 2010. 2012 was the first year of T4G at the KFC Yum! Started. 2013 was the first year of the CROSS conference. Reading between the lines, it looks as if the CROSS missions conference was started to pay the rent for T4G.

  188. Trademark search for “Together for the Gospel”:

    http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4807:l955e5.2.1

    TOGETHER FOR THE GOSPEL
    Goods and Services…Arranging of seminars and conferences; Online journals, namely, blogs featuring Theology and Ecclesiology.
    FIRST USE: 20050101.
    FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20050101
    Serial Number 78814107
    Filing Date February 14, 2006
    Registration Number 3187140
    Registration Date December 19, 2006
    (REGISTRANT) Schmucker, Frank Matthew INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 525 A St. NE Washington D.C. 20002
    (LAST LISTED OWNER) GOSPEL PROJECTS NON-PROFIT CORPORATION D.C. 525 A ST. NE WASHINGTON D.C. 20002
    Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20161219

  189. March 2006, T4G guys at John MacArthur’s Shepherds event, getting putting-on-a-conference tips from Mac’s man Dan Dumas:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060426193040/http://blog.togetherforthegospel.org:80/2006/03/shepherds_confe.html

    Ligon Duncan: “It was a blessing to be with John MacArthur and his team, and the good folks of Grace Community Church at this year’s Shepherds’ Conference. I have never been so well-taken care of in my life…Dan Dumas is a genius at organization and a gracious host.”

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060427104723/http://blog.togetherforthegospel.org:80/2006/03/california_drea.html

    Mark Dever: “Throughout the week Matt Schmucker (9Marks) & Paul Medler (Sovereign Grace) were there, getting expert help from Dan Dumas in preparing for the Together for the Gospel Conference…a special after time organized by Dan Dumas & Eric Bancroft was fun, humbling & incredibly kind. I kept thinking that there was some mistake, me sitting there being honored with CJ, Lig & Al. Dan & Eric, thanks so much!”

  190. Paul Medler and Dan Dumas eventually moved to Louisville.

    Medler has continued to be involved with T4G organization.
    I’m not sure about Dumas’s involvement; he was hired by Mohler at SBTS, and has been in the news recently for an embarrassing stint in Kentucky’s state government:

    http://news.sbts.edu/2017/05/03/gov-bevin-appoints-dumas-overhaul-kentuckys-adoption-foster-care-system/

    May 3, 2017 “Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin announced May 3 the appointment of Daniel S. Dumas, senior vice president for institutional administration at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, to lead a transformation of the state’s adoption and foster care system, effective June 19…Prior to coming to Southern Seminary, Dumas served at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, as an executive pastor and executive director of conferences.”

    https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/joseph-gerth/2018/02/09/matt-bevin-adoption-czar-waste-money/302139002/

    Feb. 9, 2018 “Matt Bevin’s adoption czar: a $200,000 bust…Kentucky paid him…$140,000 for work he did and another $60,000 for him to just go away.”

  191. A TWW post in 2010 noted:

    “According to Kevin’s DeYoung…the planning of Together for the Gospel falls squarely on the shoulders of three key individuals at 9Marks and Sovereign Grace Ministries.”

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevin-deyoung/praying-for-t4g/

    “the folks working behind the scenes…three men in particular…:

    Paul Medler (Sovereign Grace)
    Matt Schmucker (9Marks)
    Andrew Sherwood (9Marks)

    Paul Medler…wrote: ‘the key people are Matt Schmucker, assisted by Andrew Sherwood (both 9Marks) and me.'”

  192. Lydia wrote:

    No one has really been able to piece all this together.

    But Jerome seems to be doing a pretty good job. Following the money here could be very enlightening.

  193. Jerome wrote:

    Feb. 9, 2018 “Matt Bevin’s adoption czar: a $200,000 bust…Kentucky paid him…$140,000 for work he did and another $60,000 for him to just go away.”

    True! I am a Kentuckian, and it was all over the local newspapers. I did not know that Dumas is connected to T4G. Considering the fact that Matt Bevin is a staunch conservative evangelical though, I am really not surprised.

  194. Darlene wrote:

    Some women seem hardwired to be part of that environment, and will not allow themselves to think outside the narrow box of patriarchy that confines them. In fact, they would say that they are not confined at all and feel quite secure and happy. Different strokes for different folks.

    I guess I would have to agree with you Darlene. I know folks like that. It’s sad to see any child of God in bondage to the teachings and traditions of men, not able to walk freely in Christ.

  195. Max wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    I do not think that comp will totally go away.

    Nor do I. But I think that it will no longer enjoy the absolutism of a non-negotiable doctrine thundered out of Horeb (so to speak) by the various brands of Protestant Evangelicalism.

    The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

    I remember visiting a group of *Christians* in a small coastal community in Scotland to preach the gospel about 20 years ago. Only the men were permitted to speak. The women were to remain silent. The same rules applied to their business meetings. Interestingly, the women were perfectly happy with the situation – they had already told their men what they had to say before the meeting took place. I heard one women from that community comment that although the man might be the head, the woman was the neck.

  196. Forrest wrote:

    I heard one women from that community comment that although the man might be the head, the woman was the neck.

    Lol. I have heard that before and it kind of negates their entire doctrine. So the men are just marionette dolls?

    What’s even better is if she tells him wrong, she is in the clear. Maybe that is the draw?

  197. @ Jerome:
    Too bad The Courier-Journal refused to cover all sorts of Horrors like this, I saw personally, for the last 20 years. But it wasn’t PC.

  198. Deb wrote:

    And then there’s this…

    T4G offers 2,000+ titles in a curated bookstore covering 70,000 square feet across two locations in The Galt House Hotel and the Main Concourse of the Yum! Center, where our main sessions gather. Lifeway, our bookstore partner, has negotiated handsome discounts with the publishers that are only available during the three-day conference.

    Well, Lifeway has apparently not withdrawn Mahaney’s books, which means he will still make a lot of money off of this conference. Here is their list of books: https://www.amazon.com/Gomorrah-Saviano-Roberto/dp/B001MEZJ1S/. It includes 14 titles with Mahaney. Even though Beth Moore is a big seller for Lifeway her name does not appear on the list. Coincidence?

    Lifeway sponsors T4G but I cannot find any reference to T4G on the Lifeway website, not even under their list of events. The only way I could find this list was to do an internet search on “T4G Lifeway.” It’s almost like they don’t want their normal customers to know about this. Weird.

  199. Darlene wrote:

    Max wrote:

    The end result of complementarity will be just a bunch of old authoritarian guys sitting in their little Horeb patriarchies enjoying each other … their women will be long gone.

    Max, I’m going to disagree with you on this one. I think there will always be women in the patriarchal movement. Some women seem hardwired to be part of that environment, and will not allow themselves to think outside the narrow box of patriarchy that confines them. In fact, they would say that they are not confined at all and feel quite secure and happy. Different strokes for different folks.

    I agree comp won’t go away. However if Rachel and Jacobs version of comp becomes more common, it moves closer and closer to a functionally egal and at the very least a much more healthy marriage relationship. So I’m glad to see Rachel and Jacob seemingly living out what comp at its core should be called look like.

  200. Meghan wrote:

    I’m glad to see Rachel and Jacob seemingly living out what comp at its core should be called look like.

    Yes, there is Comp and then there is comp. My wife and I have been married nearly 50 years. We are both believers. Her spiritual gifts complement mine. We are a team. The Body of Christ is called to oneness, not sameness. It functions best when we recognize and treat each other as equals in our walk with Christ, for “in Christ” there are to be no distinctions of race, class or gender – no abusive lording over others.

  201. @ Ricco:

    “There is only following the path to God that each of us was born with. If that involves a “traditional” family with the mom staying home with the kid and the dad working, great! If the mom wants to be a CEO or a soldier or a lumberjack, great!”
    +++++++++++++++++

    this may go along with what you’re saying here — i think life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness factor in.

    it is so depressing to think that my life must be dictated by finding the path that leads to God.

    I remember that popular bible study “Experiencing God” many years ago — the premise was finding where God was at work and joining God there. I think the opposite is what is valid.

    I believe God finds us where we are ‘at work’ and God joins with us there. in fact, it just happens (just like $h|t happens). it’s as sure as the sun rising this very day (which i’m watching out my window), and tomorrow, the next day. as sure as air being there when we breath in.

    work… play… whatever it is we might be doing. i think christians (& other religious people) discount happiness for its own sake. too much freedom in it. too scary a thought, like riding a bike “with no hands” (how can that possibly work, who knows where you’ll swerve!) turns out it works fine. one’s body is able to find other ways to steer.

    I believe — no, i know that God finds us in the midst of our happiness for its own sake. hell, He’s enjoying it as much as we are.

    (i don’t mean to divorce happiness from right/wrong, wise/unwise)

    i think christians (& other religious people) are afraid of decision-making. really afraid of choices. what if i choose A, but C was the right one? is that sin? will God be disappointed? what cosmic eternal consequences will that unleash?!? surely the sky will fall!!

    enter professional christians to tell everyone what decisions to make. Because only God’s best is acceptable. And of course they decide what qualifies as ‘God’s best’.

    However, i think God can work with plan A, B, C, D… and i think God especially enjoys it when we as individuals exercise our moxie, make our own decisions, and tread with traction going forward in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. if God has spiritual adrenalin, it kicks in as He treads on with us. we work together, God & us.

    i think God respects our decisions, choices, and works with them. be they about sheer practicality, duty, self-fulfillment, personal preference, happiness, self-denial.

    christian culture causes people to nervously second-guess their own lives and to be afraid of liberty and the pursuit of happiness. it shouldn’t be this way.

  202. Two things about C. J. Mahaney which might help those less familiar understand his words and actions:
    1. He was always, to quote The Music Man, “a by-God spellbinder.” CJ was the cool, rebellious kid in high school, always able to fast-talk his way into and out of scrapes, and always with a pack of hanger-ons. This pattern followed into the church, where he made a living smooth-talking, lying, and flattering as required. Don’t see how (pseudo-)intellectual fast talkers fit into evangelicalism? Cf. Jack Hayford, Ravi Zacharias.
    2. Unlike many men in ministry, CJ is a total sports fan, and in the worst way possible. He has long been a sycophant to the ESPN culture of wealthy, powerful and culturally influential athletes.
    In sports, unlike the church, there’s long been an undercurrent of toxic masculinity, which takes the form of “trash-talking,” ie, boasting, taunting and gloating toward one’s opponents. in this tradition, CJ has regularly confused his Christian listeners with his trash talk, especially his boasts of athletic prowess, in golf, and most particularly, basketball.
    – CJ wanted so badly to Be Like Mike (Michael Jordan) that that’s actually why he started to shave his balding head in the late ’80s.
    – The “Fab Four” is doubtless another Mahaneyism – no one else in that group would dare to even joke with that kind of hubris – but I’ll guarantee you it’s actually a basketball reference (look up the “Fab Five.”) Also, Mahaney is not particularly a music fan.

  203. elastigirl wrote:

    christian culture causes people to nervously second-guess their own lives and to be afraid of liberty and the pursuit of happiness. it shouldn’t be this way.

    I could not agree more with this. Your whole comment was spot on.

    One thing I have learned is that thing a people say that may be positive, when heard through the fundagelical lense, can put us right back in bondage.

    I’ve been really impacted by Brennan Manning’s books, especially his writing about the true self/false self. What I meant by the “path to God” comment was that when we live out of our true self, not out of the insecurity that causes us to build a false self to convince everyone we are better than we are, that life leads towards God. I did NOT mean it in the sin-conscious way that makes us triple think every decision and couch every decision in religious terms. I have been there, and for me, that way lies madness.

    I don’t think we need to go in search of our path. The happy people I know, Christian and not, have followed the good desires that they have. I had to stop believing total depravity when I started thinking this way, and that has made my outlook so much more positive.

  204. elastigirl wrote:

    enter professional christians to tell everyone what decisions to make. Because only God’s best is acceptable. And of course they decide what qualifies as ‘God’s best’.

    Professional Christians preach that we are all hopelessly separated from God.

    I don’t believe that anymore, and it has radically improved my outlook on life.

  205. Lydia wrote:

    Forrest wrote:

    I heard one women from that community comment that although the man might be the head, the woman was the neck.

    Lol. I have heard that before and it kind of negates their entire doctrine. So the men are just marionette dolls?

    What’s even better is if she tells him wrong, she is in the clear. Maybe that is the draw?

    Control without responsibility.

  206. KMD wrote:

    Two things about C. J. Mahaney which might help those less familiar understand his words and actions:
    1. He was always, to quote The Music Man, “a by-God spellbinder.” CJ was the cool, rebellious kid in high school, always able to fast-talk his way into and out of scrapes, and always with a pack of hanger-ons. This pattern followed into the church, where he made a living smooth-talking, lying, and flattering as required

    The other thing about Mahaney or to add what you said is that Mahaney seem to have the nack that both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton of being able to get away with things that others wouldn’t able to do with.

  207. Max wrote:

    Meghan wrote:

    I’m glad to see Rachel and Jacob seemingly living out what comp at its core should be called look like.

    Yes, there is Comp and then there is comp. My wife and I have been married nearly 50 years. We are both believers. Her spiritual gifts complement mine. We are a team. The Body of Christ is called to oneness, not sameness. It functions best when we recognize and treat each other as equals in our walk with Christ, for “in Christ” there are to be no distinctions of race, class or gender – no abusive lording over others.

    It sounds like you both have much wisdom to pass on, Max.

  208. Ricco wrote:

    Professional Christians preach that we are all hopelessly separated from God.

    I don’t believe that anymore, and it has radically improved my outlook on life.

    I too am glad I left that brand of theology behind. It was debilitating, stultifying, and filled with despair.

  209. Steve240 wrote:

    Anyone seen this.

    https://warhornmedia.com/2018/03/07/c-j-maheney-learning-from-our-brothers-mistakes/

    Sure sounds like a kool-aid drinker.

    I read it. Pure BS. Basically says mistakes were made (as opposed to crimes), we all sin (sin leveling), it was a quarter of a century ago (ancient history), we know more now (as if no one would have though it wrong back then).

    “A quarter-century ago when these mistakes were first being made in Sovereign Grace’s homes, schools and churches, no one knew what we know now.”

    And the credit he gives to Rachael is undone by his disappointment that a woman had to do it rather than a man. Pretty sick all around.

  210. elastigirl wrote:

    i think God respects our decisions, choices, and works with them. be they about sheer practicality, duty, self-fulfillment, personal preference, happiness, self-denial.

    Not according to them. God has a plan for your life that is completely scripted and mapped out.

  211. @ Muff Potter:

    where’s the joie de vivre in that?!? how utterly boring. leave it to religious nincompoops to deaden the fizz of living one’s own life.

    i would bet a very large sum of money (if there was a venue for it) that a flourishing creative person doe not exist in any of their churches. i truly don’t see how its remotely possible.

  212. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    “A quarter-century ago when these mistakes were first being made in Sovereign Grace’s homes, schools and churches, no one knew what we know now.” (Tim Bayly)

    Well, folks, that’s about the weakest defense of C.J. that you will ever hear!

    Those who call themselves Christians know the difference between right and wrong now better than they did 25 years ago?! We should look at mistakes in ministry then on a different plane than now? Good Lord, these folks are digging deeper for more shallow excuses for C.J. and SGM.

  213. elastigirl wrote:

    i would bet a very large sum of money (if there was a venue for it) that a flourishing creative person doe not exist in any of their churches. i truly don’t see how its remotely possible.

    I’m a professional classical musician, and I feel completely out of place in church. You are completely right about the stifling of creativity. There needs to be true belonging for creativity. You can’t take creative risks without a feeling of safety. When your acceptance is contingent on you having the right answers, creativity goes away.

  214. Muff Potter wrote:

    Not according to them. God has a plan for your life that is completely scripted and mapped out.

    Wm. Paul Young talks about God being an artist rather than an engineer. That has been a very helpful analogy for me. Basically, the entirety of the Shack has helped me see God in a more positive way. (and all the right people think that book is from the Devil. Piper, Mohler, etc.):-)

  215. @ Ricco:

    part of creative expression is living beings to receive it — as opposed to a void, or a wall that shuts it off. fear is a wall that shuts it off. the bigger and more open the receiving, the deeper, brighter, & more enlivened the expression. the more inspiration can manifest itself through the creative expression. and everyone is changed because of it, including the ‘conduit’.

  216. @ Ricco:

    i’m a musician as well. i’ve totally given up on church as a venue. yuck. if it is received, it’s laden with legislation. she was too focussed on the music, she wasn’t worshipping, she was showing off, she wasn’t demure enough, she wasn’t dressed right, it sounded too “worldly”, it was too loud, it was too much this, not enough of that.

    ridiculous.

    and now i’m free to play music i actually enjoy, minus the non-intuitive forced lyrics that i frankly have no feeling for. (not to mention the male-centric dynamic of rehearsals — nothing like being invisible, ignored, and dismissed)

  217. @ elastigirl:
    Art with a pre determined storyline isn’t art, it’s propaganda. It’s like my in laws who will only go see “Christian” movies. If the art doesn’t tell them what they want to hear, they want no part of it.

  218. elastigirl wrote:

    not to mention the male-centric dynamic of rehearsals — nothing like being invisible, ignored, and dismissed)

    That sounds awful. I’m glad you aren’t being put through that anymore.

    I don’t play an instrument that is ever used in worship music, so I’ve mostly avoided that. I’ve played for more than my share of jerk conductors, but they aren’t being jerks “in the name of Jesus,” so it’s not as hard to take

  219. Ricco wrote:

    Art with a pre determined storyline isn’t art, it’s propaganda. It’s like my in laws who will only go see “Christian” movies. If the art doesn’t tell them what they want to hear, they want no part of it.

    You would hate the worship style of my parish. We are an anglo-catholic episcopal parish. We are even into ‘propaganda’ to the extent that one of the four scripture portions is actually the chanting of a portion from the psalms. And the hymns have simple melodies, mostly limited to a singing range of one octave, and focused on the message and not the music. Yes, I said hymns; that would be for congregational singing.

    IMO, when it comes to ‘the arts’, be it music or visual or drama or dance or whatever, there is a time for everything under the sun, but the artist does not get to determine what that time is; he has to adapt to other people’s wants and needs just like the rest of us is he wants market success for his product. The seller can set the price and determine the product, but it is the buyer who makes the final decision as to what he buys, if anything.

  220. Ricco wrote:

    Wm. Paul Young talks about God being an artist rather than an engineer.

    I like to think that the Almighty is both (artist and engineer). Perhaps best embodied in William Blake’s The Ancient of Days:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ancient_of_Days
    I’m a long time Blake fan.

    Btw, I loved The Shack! And yeah, fundagelicals (both reformed and non) fumed and farted over it as being blasphemous.

  221. elastigirl wrote:

    (not to mention the male-centric dynamic of rehearsals — nothing like being invisible, ignored, and dismissed)

    That’s okay elastigirl, tell your detractors that it was the woman’s genome God chose to bring himself into this world with, Not The Man’s.

  222. @ Muff Potter:

    “Mike, you’re overplaying right there, and it was the woman’s genome God chose to bring himself into this world with, Not The Man’s.”

    Now that will get his attention. Muff, you’re a genius!

  223. Ricco wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    enter professional christians to tell everyone what decisions to make. Because only God’s best is acceptable. And of course they decide what qualifies as ‘God’s best’.
    Professional Christians preach that we are all hopelessly separated from God.
    I don’t believe that anymore, and it has radically improved my outlook on life.

    You don’t need them as a “mediator”. They fear more will figure that out.

  224. @ Ricco:
    It certainly got an important conversation started! I also think that in many ways it helped make ESS more obvious to current Christians. Through him, I found the very interesting scholar and former Calvinist, Baxter Kruger and although quite different and interesting, Francois du Toit and his Mirror bible.

    None of this is an endorsement of anything. I just love to research this stuff. Young is too “universalist” for my taste despite his protest to the contrary. I don’t feel like a bad person for admitting I don’t want to spend eternity on a redeemed earth with Pol Pot, for example. Francois is a bit too charismatic for my taste but his Mirror bible “mirrors” some of the research I had already done. 🙂

    You just never know where things lead!

  225. @ Ricco:
    I grew up around your type and now my daughter is a classic vocalist. And I totally get where you are coming from because I was around when the church change was in full swing in my neck of the woods. It might be hard for you to imagine that 30-40 years ago, SBTS was considered one of the best classical music post grad programs in the region. Al Mohler chased them out.

    It’s one reason we keep visiting the Episcopalians a few times per year because of their appreciation for the classics. And in those circles, a lot of violinists, organists and vocalists end up there.

  226. @ Ricco:
    “The point is this. The arts are not the pretty but irrelevant bits around the border of reality. They are the highways into the center of a reality which cannot be glimpsed, let alone grasped, any other way. The present world is good, but broken and in any case incomplete; art of all kinds enables us to understand that paradox in its many dimensions. But the present world is also designed for something which has not yet happened. It is like a violin waiting to be played: beautiful to look at, graceful to hold-and yet if you’d never heard one in the hands of a musician, you wouldn’t believe the new dimensions of beauty yet to be revealed. Perhaps art can show something of that, can glimpse the future possibilities pregnant within the present time.”

    ― N.T. Wright, Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense

  227. @ Lydia:
    That is an amazing quote. I don’t agree with NT Wright on everything, but I love reading his work and that quote is beautiful! I’m glad your daughter is a musician and, since I’m in my early 30s, it is hard to imagine SBTS with a classical music program.

    I need to read the Mirror Bible. It is on my list. I really like Baxter Kruger. He is very well grounded in the whole history of Christian thought, and listening to and reading him always makes me go back and reconsider things I always thought I knew.

  228. @ Ricco:
    I do appreciate those who teach in a way that makes me think and seek more information instead of preaching at me or emotionally manipulate. I find Wright interesting for historical context. He was originally an Ancients Scholar before he became a Theologian. I find plenty to disagree with him on, too. He certainly gets that, it seems.

  229. Muff Potter wrote:

    Btw, I loved The Shack! And yeah, fundagelicals (both reformed and non) fumed and farted over it as being blasphemous.

    Fundagelicals (both reformed and non) fume and fart over anything and everything other than Jack Chick, Left Behind, or the latest words from the mouth of their Head Apostle du Jour.

  230. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    Anyone seen this.
    https://warhornmedia.com/2018/03/07/c-j-maheney-learning-from-our-brothers-mistakes/
    Sure sounds like a kool-aid drinker.
    I read it. Pure BS. Basically says mistakes were made (as opposed to crimes), we all sin (sin leveling), it was a quarter of a century ago (ancient history), we know more now (as if no one would have though it wrong back then).
    “A quarter-century ago when these mistakes were first being made in Sovereign Grace’s homes, schools and churches, no one knew what we know now.”
    And the credit he gives to Rachael is undone by his disappointment that a woman had to do it rather than a man. Pretty sick all around.

    He describes Rachael as a mother who has been trained as a lawyer. I wonder if he woukd describe himself as a father who as been trained as a pastor.

  231. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    where’s the joie de vivre in that?!? how utterly boring. leave it to religious nincompoops to deaden the fizz of living one’s own life.
    i would bet a very large sum of money (if there was a venue for it) that a flourishing creative person doe not exist in any of their churches. i truly don’t see how its remotely possible.

    Certainly not in our former church. I remember at one point, when the patriarchal crowd had gained the ascendancy, there was talk of how our people would spark a new Renaissance of art and music. “Truth and beauty!” was the cry.

    Instead, the unspoken rules multiplied, the grip of fear and control tightened bit by bit, and creativity was stifled into a pallid imitation of the real thing.

    Before we finally left, I noticed that toward the end, even the worship music (mostly out of the hymnbook) that had been full and rich and enthusiastically sung in four-part harmony sounded like people were singing under their breath, or just going through the motions.

    Talk about quenching the Spirit!

  232. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    Anyone seen this.
    https://warhornmedia.com/2018/03/07/c-j-maheney-learning-from-our-brothers-mistakes/
    Sure sounds like a kool-aid drinker.
    I read it. Pure BS. Basically says mistakes were made (as opposed to crimes), we all sin (sin leveling), it was a quarter of a century ago (ancient history), we know more now (as if no one would have though it wrong back then).
    “A quarter-century ago when these mistakes were first being made in Sovereign Grace’s homes, schools and churches, no one knew what we know now.”
    And the credit he gives to Rachael is undone by his disappointment that a woman had to do it rather than a man. Pretty sick all around.

    Oh, yes. At least he’s consistent in his wrongness. It was Tim Bayly who said it was wrong for women to call out John Piper and Doug Wilson, as I recall. I don’t know if he went so far as to say that it would be better to have false preaching than to have a woman point it out (if a man couldn’t be bothered to), but that’s the impression that I remember.

  233. LeslieWrote:

    He describes Rachael as a mother who has been trained as a lawyer. I wonder if he woukd describe himself as a father who as been trained as a pastor.

    Speaks volumes about who and what he is.

  234. John’s words might be a good note of caution for these Untouchables…

    …there stands One among you whom you do not know… One who actually ranks higher than you…who was before you and who is full of GRACE and TRUTH.

  235. refugee wrote:

    Certainly not in our former church. I remember at one point, when the patriarchal crowd had gained the ascendancy, there was talk of how our people would spark a new Renaissance of art and music. “Truth and beauty!” was the cry.

    Instead, the unspoken rules multiplied, the grip of fear and control tightened bit by bit, and creativity was stifled into a pallid imitation of the real thing.

    Just like Truth and Beauty, Art and Music in the old USSR or Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.

  236. Deb wrote:

    And then there’s this…

    T4G Bookstores

    T4G offers 2,000+ titles in a curated bookstore covering 70,000 square feet across two locations in The Galt House Hotel and the Main Concourse of the Yum! Center, where our main sessions gather. Lifeway, our bookstore partner…

    A “curated” bookstore? Interesting way to describe the arrangement.

    ‘Curated’ as in no Bibles except the ESV and a few HCSB!

    Thanks, Ken F, for finding this complete list of the items allowed to be sold at T4G’s ‘curated’ conference bookstore in 2014, posted by Jonathan Howe, Lifeway’s ‘Director of Strategic Initiatives’:

    https://www.lifeway.com/pastors/t4g-resource-list/

  237. Steve240 wrote:

    Sure sounds like a kool-aid drinker

    Tim Bayly? He’s practically on a kool-aid IV drip. Christianese Patriarchy is his daily bread, from what I can tell.

  238. @ Root 66:
    Jerome wrote:

    Thanks, Ken F, for finding this complete list of the items allowed to be sold at T4G’s ‘curated’ conference bookstore in 2014,

    Every now and then I miss obvious important details. In this case I missed the part about it being a 2014 T4G bookstore rather than the upcoming one. But this highlights an even bigger question for me. Why is it not possible to find any reference to Lifeway’s sponsorship of T4G on the main Lifeway web site? And why does their pastors site not include any info after 2014? It could be that I am searching their sites incorrectly, but I would think that as the major sponsor of T4G they would show some kind or reference linking Lifeway with T4G. What is a good explanation?

  239. Max wrote:

    Well, folks, that’s about the weakest defense of C.J. that you will ever hear!

    And did you notice how Bayly insults and lampoons Brent Detweiler, but without mentioning him by name? If Brent’s accusations of Mahaney are so patently ridiculous, then why not link to Brent’s site and trust everyone else to come to the same conclusion? It’s almost as if Bayly doesn’t want people to see all the accusations about Mahaney and SGM…

    Although it seems even Bayly had the sense not to try that with Rachael. Slightly more intelligence than the SGC goons have shown.

  240. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    Although it seems even Bayly had the sense not to try that with Rachael. Slightly more intelligence than the SGC goons have shown.

    It would be like Ken Ham going up against Marie Curie.

  241. @ refugee:
    I remember when roaming around the YRR blogosphere years ago, a serious focus on doctrinally incorrect hymns! It was all the rage to point out the doctrinal problems with say, Fanny Crosby and other old favs.

    It was bizarre.

  242. @ Jerome:
    Curated? I am trying to figure out how they are using this word. Carefully chosen for you by the big cheeses? Approved by the experts?

  243. https://paulwilkinson.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/an-outsider-looks-at-together-for-the-gospel/

    “One of the things that really stood out to me was the constant reference to the conference bookstore. In addition to some books that delegates received gratis, there were books promoted by the chairperson for each session, and discussion panelists who mentioned a book were often informed seconds later that the particular title was indeed, available at the store.”

  244. Lydia wrote:

    My guess is because a lot of non calvinist Baptists probably use the site?

    That’s the only explanation I can think of. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

  245. Jerome wrote:

    and discussion panelists who mentioned a book were often informed seconds later that the particular title was indeed, available at the store

    Pure coincidence…

  246. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Why is it not possible to find any reference to Lifeway’s sponsorship of T4G on the main Lifeway web site? And why does their pastors site not include any info after 2014? It could be that I am searching their sites incorrectly, but I would think that as the major sponsor of T4G they would show some kind or reference linking Lifeway with T4G. What is a good explanation?

    Maintain Plausible Deniability.