“Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops.”
Jesus speaking to his disciples (Luke 12:2-3 ESV)
We are absolutely heartbroken about the terrible tragedy that took place this afternoon at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida where an expelled student went on a shooting rampage leaving at least 17 people dead and multiple people injured. Both students and adults are among the victims. Please join us in praying for the victims and their loved ones as well as those who sustained injury.
If ever there was proof that the men leading Sovereign Grace Ministries Churches have no heart, it would be the ill-timed statement they published yesterday. They were responding to Rachael Denhollander’s February 5th request on Facebook that SGC have the Christian organization GRACE “do a thorough independent investigation of the organization’s historical and current handling of abuse complaints, which will be released to the public.” In her FB post Rachael contends that “GRACE has no affiliation with SGM or any survivors and therefore is in a unique position of approaching such an investigation with objectivity and independence”.
This statement by SGC’s Leadership Team came to my attention last night (shortly after it was posted), and my heart breaks when I think of those hurt while in SGM who will be reading it on Valentine’s Day.
In case you haven’t read the testimonies of those who were victimized in this ‘family of churches’, here are links to some of their horrific stories.
(1) Wallace (and Happymom’s) Story – Recently re-published at TWW
(2) Noel’s Story (published by SGM Survivors)
(3) Pam Palmer’s Daughter, Renee (included in the Second Amended Complaint)
Two year old Renee Palmer was victimized by a male teenager who was serving as a “Home Group babysitter”. Often parents in SGM churches would attend ‘home groups’, leaving their children at one of the family’s homes under the supervision of a “home group babysitter”. Items 96-106 of the Second Amended Complaint against Sovereign Grace Ministries, et al. reveal what happened. Here is a screen shot of the beginning of Renee’s testimony.
The Second Amended Complaint confirms that a meeting was arranged between Renee (who had just turned three) and her abuser so they could be ‘reconciled‘. Renee was visibly scared and crawled under a chair upon seeing her abuser. What kind of church does this???
According to the complaint, the named defendants – John Loftness, Gary Ricucci (C.J. Mahaney’s brother-in-law), and Grant Layman (C.J.’s brother-in-law) – “began disseminating false and misleading information to the police and church members about [name withheld pending court ruling on defense motion]’s crimes.” The complaint then states that the defendants (named above) withheld from the police the fact that this unnamed individual had access to other toddlers in his role as Home Group babysitter.
The defendants (Loftness, Ricucci and Layman) instructed the Palmers to remain completely silent about who committed the assault against their daughter, thereby preventing other parents in the church from protecting their own children. The Palmers were threatened with ‘church discipline’ if they named their daughter’s abuser.
According to the complaint, the defendants knowingly permitted Renee’s abuser to participate unsupervised in church activities with children despite his conviction for assaulting three-year old Renee Palmer.
Finally, the “defendants misled the Palmers about court dates in order to prevent them from attending court appearances and filing a victim impact statement”, further preventing parents from knowing that their small children might be in danger.
*** It is important to note that Dee and I have had face-to-face meetings with Noel, Happymom and Wallace, and Pam Palmer. We will NEVER forget their facial expressions as they shared their heartbreaking stories about what happened to their children.
WARNING: Should you choose to read through the entire complaint, you need to know that there is some extremely graphic language, so be forewarned…
For nearly nine years, I have been haunted by comments left over at SGM Refuge by a grieving mother. The date of her first comment was April 21, 2009. It was very early in our blogging (we had launched TWW just a month before this mother posted her comments). Although SGM Refuge has since been taken down, we providentially preserved this mom’s comments in a post about KingsWay Community Church.
Here is the first comment “A Mother’ made over at SGM Refuge: (re-published in our post dated 5/11/09):
“A Mother
April 21st, 2009 at 8:13 pmDid they know my son was raped??????? Why was nothing said???? 11 years old. Richmond VA.church. Virginia BEACH. South side church knew something and said nothing???????????? We find out when he was eighteen, if I knew when he was sixteen I think I could of helped him, I know I could of helped him. Moved to Virginia beach 1989, left 1994. What more can I say, I just live with this, maybe e-mailing this WILL just make me feel a little better, JUST THAT I HAVE TOLD SOME OF THE STORY.
The remainder of our TWW post (published on May 11, 2009) is included below. Since no one was reading our blog way back then, we are glad to be able to share it with our current readership.
Shhh!!!!!! Don’t Talk Post (Published May 11, 2009)
Here’s a summary of this mother’s testimony. Her son was born in 1977 since she states that he was eleven years old in 1988. Her family belonged to the SGM church in Virginia Beach, which we believe later moved to Chesapeake, Virginia.
In order to understand the connection between the “Richmond church” which is now called KingsWay Community Church (located in Midlothian – a suburb of Richmond), it’s important to understand that SGM labels itself as a “family of churches”. There are often strong ties between SGM congregations, particularly when they are located in the same state. Richmond and Virginia Beach are only about 100 miles apart (estimated driving time 1 hour 15 minutes).
Barry Albert, who is currently in prison near Richmond, served in the KingsWay youth group according to the boy’s mother. Barry met and befriended her son at “Celebration East 1988”. “A Mother” writes:
“This man used this other little boy as a reason to have my son come and visit him in Richmond. He was ‘helping’ care for this other boy and would ask for us to allow our son to visit them in Richmond. Up until that time my son was an innocent young boy, only 11. They, the pastors and police, knew of no reason why we shouldn’t allow the friendship and I don’t challenge that.”
Prior to this statement she explains: “I did do what I thought was right in protecting my son, I contacted the local police in Richmond and the pastors of the Richmond and Virginia Beach church to find out if they knew of any reason why I shouldn’t allow my son to spend time with this man.” She confirmed that Barry did attend the Richmond church, now known as KingsWay Community Church.
She continues: I don’t believe they (the pastors) knew at this point who this man was. This all took place between the year 1988 and 1994ish, way before Megan’s Law. I can’t say that the church could have prevented what happened to my son but they did nothing to find all potential victims once this monster was revealed. Who in their right mind wouldn’t find and contact everyone known to be involved with this man?”
WHO INDEED!!!
This mother states that she and her husband “didn’t find out about any of this until 1998 and then quite by accident!” It’s important to note that this is the first time she realized her son had been repeatedly raped, and her son did not reveal his rapist’s identity. She then explains that her family moved back to their home state (unspecified) around 1994 and that KingsWay never informed the SGM church they attended in Virginia Beach of this pedophile situation. She asks “Why?”
Her sad lament continues: “I was in contact with the Richmond church in 1995 and ’96 after my son was injured, I wanted to get in touch with Barry, the now convicted felon. My son had been injured and was seriously hurt. I wanted to let this man know that he could be praying for him.”
“A Mother” innocently called KingsWay in the mid-1990s to try and obtain Barry’s contact information, thinking that he would be a good support for her son. Obviously, she had no idea it was Barry who had seriously hurt her son when he was between the ages of 11 and 16. As had been previously stated, she didn’t discover the truth until 1998. Barry’s conviction record shows he was sentenced with “aggravated sexual battery” on December 7, 1995 and on February 20, 1996 as well as “Forcible Sodomy” on February 20, 1996. The church staff at KingsWay obviously knew what Barry had done when “A Mother” called them. Apparently, her son was so traumatized that he never identified the man who repeatedly raped him.
The following comment written by “A Mother” clearly demonstrates the “Can’t Talk” Rule explained previously. Again, this is the most powerful of all the unspoken rules in an abusive religious system. Here we will see that extremely important information was withheld from those who most needed to know it.
“A Mother” writes:
“Now this was all after he (Barry) had been charged, but did the church secretary or Gene Emerson even then try to contact us to let us know about the charges that had been brought against this man? NO! Even then I explained who I was and this man’s relationship to our family and my son. We had lived in Virginia Beach and my son would spend weekends, and later lived with this man for a short period of time. I say this to say the leadership and other members of that church knew my son, as well as my husband and me. They also knew that my son was exposed to this man and they never tried to find us. My son was part of the youth group in Richmond and attended the church, this man served in the youth group.”
Gene Emerson, whom “A Mother” mentions, continues to serve as Senior Pastor at KingsWay Community Church. Here’s the link:
KingsWay was founded in early 1989 in the Emerson home. Apparently, Barry met this mother’s son at a large SGM celebration in 1988, shortly before the Richmond church was established. It’s interesting to note that two years after KingsWay began, they sent several families to help plant a church in Raleigh, North Carolina, which became Sovereign Grace Church in Apex, NC. They also helped establish a SGM church in Roanoke, Virginia. As a point of clarification, the SGM church in Midlothian was called “Southside Church of Richmond” from 1989 to 2002 when it changed its name to KingsWay Community Church. Just last month (April 2009) this church sent families from their congregation to Fredericksburg, Virginia to plant another SGM church. All of this information can be verified by clicking on the above link.
Based on the brief history of KingsWay Community Church, it’s not difficult to discover the primary focus of Sovereign Grace Ministries — church planting. Not only do they “plant” churches, but they “adopt” existing congregations into their “family of churches”. Based on this mother’s testimony, it appears that the needs of the established flock are secondary to expanding the ministry of SGM.
“A Mother” then writes these gut-wrenching words:
“All that I am saying is when it all came out, my son was still of age when we, his parents, could help him or at least try. We were robbed of any chance to press charges or seek help for our son.”
In her testimony, this mother explains that they finally found out about what truly happened to their son in 1998, two years after Barry was convicted. If Barry was first convicted in December 1995, surely the KingsWay staff knew of his horrible crimes against their youth when this mother called.
It’s difficult to read the painful words of “A Mother” as she writes:
“My motivation for leaving the link and screaming out, for the first time, was for some understanding, my heart is still breaking. My son recently was released from the MENTAL WARD at a hospital. The emotion and betrayal that I feel and that I am sure he feels are more than I can ever express in words.”
Here is another link showing Barry Albert as a sex offender in the Commonwealth of Virginia.
Lest you think that this is an isolated case in Sovereign Grace Ministries, perhaps you would like to read an extremely detailed account written by Noel, the mother of a three-year-old girl who was repeatedly raped by a 15 year old boy caring for SGM children while their parents attended a leaders meeting. After the SGM pastors knew of the boy’s crime, they allowed him to work in the church nursery. The rapist is now married with a child and continues to be a member of the church. His father committed suicide shortly after the crime was discovered. Throughout this outrageous circumstance, the church leaders implemented the “No Talk” Rule to conceal a horrendous crime…
When a church is more interested in self-preservation than the spiritual health of its members (especially the young), you can be certain that Almighty God is taking notice. There are many revered Christian leaders who have turned a blind eye to the horrendous abuses taking place within SGM. Some even want to model their ministries after the authoritarian structure of Sovereign Grace Ministries. Rest assured that our Sovereign Lord is watching, and we believe that one day His judgment will fall upon those leaders who are acting irresponsibly with His children.
Silence is definitely not golden, and that’s why we choose to speak out!
There seems to be a growing AUTHORITARIANISM within some evangelical churches which has us deeply concerned for our brothers and sisters in Christ, especially those who are young in the faith. That’s why we are so dedicated to researching and reporting significant trends within Christendom. We are sounding the alarm! Do YOU hear it?
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.” (Mark 9:42 ESV)
If ‘A Mother’ is able to read this post and re-read her comments from nine years ago, I hope she knows how deeply her story has touched our hearts. We have been calling out Sovereign Grace Ministries (now ‘Churches’) the entire time we have been blogging (nine years on March 19th!).
Perhaps you’re wondering whether Gene Emerson, who founded KingsWay Community Church, is still pastoring there. Well, no he’s not! Back in 2015 the church website revealed that…
Gene [Emerson] was found guilty in Chesterfield County Court of soliciting a prostitute. To this day, he continues to maintain that he is innocent of any illicit activity, though he has humbly acknowledged a significant lapse in judgement regarding his conduct throughout the situation.”
We wrote about it in a post entitled “Another Day, Another SGM Sex Scandal – KingsWay Pastor Resigns Due to ‘Lapse in Judgment’
Now back to the statement posted yesterday by the Sovereign Grace Churches’ leadership team. Here is a screen shot of their opening remarks.
Social media (particularly Twitter) as well as the blogosphere have been abuzz in response to SGC’s lengthy statement. Here is an excellent post published by Warren Throckmorton.
Sovereign Grace Churches Posts New Response to Rachael Denhollander (Updated with Reactions)
In Warren’s post, you will see one of Dee’s reactionary Tweets, as well as a Tweet by Jacob Denhollander (Rachael’s husband).
There have also been Tweets by the usual Mahaney defenders – Ray Ortlund and Kevin DeYoung. Perhaps you remember that it was Ortlund and DeYoung who served on the impartial preliminary panel that found Mahaney fit for ministry back in the summer of 2011 – we wrote about it here). Notice how Ortlund and DeYoung’s Tweets sound very similar…
Under Warren Throckmorton’s post, ‘Ryan M.’ left an enlightening comment (see below).
Unfortunately, SGM’s behavior in all of this doesn’t surprise me. Right after college, I interned at the SGM church I attended all through college. They’re as corrupt, unhealthy, and spiritually abusive organization as you’ll find in American Christianity. I’m incredibly glad that I got out when I did, roughly ten years ago, and I’m continually amazed that anyone outside of the organization had the temerity to defend them. To anyone reading this who may be thinking about visiting an SGM church: don’t. To anyone who’s thinking about visiting one of the churches that disaffiliated from SGM a few years ago when all of this started becoming public: be real careful, and ask hard questions about what they’ve changed.
As we have observed above from the testimonies of those hurt in churches belonging to Sovereign Grace Ministries, the victims were re-victimized by their church leaders. They were told not to go to the police, to reconcile with their abusers (after all, we are ALL sinners!), and to keep quiet. Shame on them!
Now we have Rachael Denhollander, the first woman to come forward publicly about the police report she filed against Larry Nassar. It was her courage that enabled over 260 more women to come forward and reveal that Nassar violated them, too.
Years before she went public about Nassar, Rachael compiled information that troubled her about C.J. Mahaney and SGM and presented it to the pastors at her non-SGM church. Instead of taking to heart her concerns about this ministry, the pastor defended his friend and colleague C.J. Mahaney and told her and her husband that they needed to find another church. This is how victims like Rachael (who was sexually abused by Nassar) are re-victimized by those who should be wholeheartedly supporting them.
As we see it, Rachael Denhollander is being re-victimized once again – this time by the leaders of Sovereign Grace Churches. Clearly, Rachael has a heart for those who have been victimized, and all SGC’s leadership team wants to do is shut her up, just like they were able to do for decades to those who dared to come forward and reveal the abuse they had experienced in SGM.
What’s most encouraging to us at this juncture is that the world is watching!
Thanks for this post.
Praying.
2
How do they continue to deny what anyone with internet access can find out is the truth??
They truly believe they are above any questioning or investigation. The people they consider to be their equals are protecting them, not questioning them.
Only ‘the little people’ are raising their voices, and just who do they think they are?
What Soveriegn Grace is doing can only be described as despicable. They are calling evil good and good evil. If they do not repent then many of their number will rot in hell for eternity
Has everyone read Brent Detwiler’s brand new documentation posted yesterday, Feb. 13? It’s devastating. Completely blows the lid off Mahaney’s, Layman’s and multiple others at SVG having full knowledge of abuse in 1991 and covering it up – resulting in untold numbers of add’l children being subsequently abused in 4 states plus Puerto Rico. Grant Layman (Mahaney’s bro-in-law) admitted this under oath – tho he is still lying about the dates – says he learned of abuse in 1993, but Detwiler proves it was 1991.
READ DETWILER HERE
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/cj-mahaney-covenant-life-church-the-conspiracy-to-cover-up-t.html
P.S. one of the most surprising and heartbreaking details in Detwiler’s documentation is about the 17 yr. old sister of one of the victims. Her name is Rachael. She went to bat in 1991 for her little brother – and MULTIPLE OTHER BOYS who’d told her of their abuse. She did what she could, far more than any adults including her own parents did! She told 2 SGM pastors and the school principal. And from there the matter was systematically buried, and the abuser was cast off, kicked down the road to continue his predations for many more years. It is utterly outrageous and indefensible. And again, Grant Layman admits this, unequivocally, as you’ll see for yourself. And there is much more.
@ SallyVee:
I cannot understand why these men, such as Layman, are not in prison already for their multiple failures to report these things to the appropriate authorities.
Thank you Deebs for supporting victims of sexual abuse. I hope that the evil deeds of these men who were complicit in covering up for and protecting sexual abusers in their midst will be dealt with in this life. Which brings me to ask: Will there be a group demonstrating outside the ‘Together for the Gospel’ conference in Louisville this year? People need to speak truth to power outside of that phony conference and expose these hypocrites for what they are!
“There seems to be a growing AUTHORITARIANISM within some evangelical churches which has us deeply concerned for our brothers and sisters in Christ, especially those who are young in the faith.”
Watching the Leah Remini series, hard to see a difference in the way image issues are handled that can affect the revenue flow.
Good work Deb. I believe the FBI has good cause to investigate all Sovereign Grace leadership. I pray it happens.
Forrest wrote:
I wonder what has kept some of the family members of the abused from going vigilante?
Hey Deb, not a big deal, but I wanted to note one small error in your post. Gary Ricucci is C.J. Mahaney’s brother-in-law, not son-in-law. Gary is married to C.J.’s sister. Grant Layman is also C.J.’s brother-in-law. He is the brother of C.J.’s wife. The family ties can get a little confusing, I know. 🙂
@ Marge Sweigart:
Thanks! I knew that. Not sure why I wrote SIL. 🙁 Making the correction.
Forrest wrote:
Yes. It is astonishing to me that they are allowed to stay in business. Because let’s face it – that’s all they are, a lucrative business wrapped up in faux-religiosity.
I have one simple question. Why is “CJ” not still head of what use to be called “SGM”?? Resigning, and running away tells me everything..
roebuck wrote:
Apparently, there may be $$$ involved in the cover-ups:
“I believe Charlie Llewellyn would have been reported to the police in keeping with the law if not for his wealth and relational connections.” – Brent Detwiler
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/the-conspiracy-surrounding-plaintiff-grace-goe-at-covenant-l.html
Marge Sweigart wrote:
Mahaney likes to keep it in the family. BIL Ricucci and SIL Chesemore are on the pastoral staff at the Louisville outpost. SIL Steve Whitacre was a deacon, but Mahaney announced in January he was crowning him an elder. I assume that is a paid position as they have never had lay elders. SIL Mike Bradshaw is still a lowly deacon, but with all the knowledge garnered as an intern at Mark Dever’s church it should only be a matter of time until he also assumes his role as an elder. Then there is son Chad. Undoubtedly a real disappointment to CJ, he was arrested for DUI a few years ago and I believe he served some jail time.
On a somewhat-related note to this post, CLC (aka Covenant Life Church, aka “The Mother Ship) will be changing its name. I watched a few minutes of this video, and can’t believe PJ talks about “exiting their first 40 years well and entering their next 40 years well.” I don’t know if I can watch the whole thing. So. Hard.
A name change is always a good way to “exit well”, and BONUS, it’s a super handy way to distance your institution from the yucky trail left by CJ Mahaney!!!!
https://vimeo.com/254199353
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-young-rob-porter-mormon_us_5a844a06e4b0cf06752087ae
Substitute Evangelical for “Mormon” or “LDS”. From the comments:
“Is there anyone out there that can enlighten me on whether or not there is ANY religion that does not tell its women that whatever their men do is somehow okay?”
“… the logical conclusion in a religion where women are considered to be the ‘property of the priesthood.'”
“I don’t follow any man-made religion these days.”
“How dare you expect to live when your husband needs someone to choke?”
Note: With SGM and their ilk, children are also considered property.
@ JYJames:
Another comment (to the tune of “by their fruits, you shall know them…”):
“Every single fundamentalist, evangelical based religion that is based heavily on a patriarchal belief has this issue.”
Jen C wrote:
Cover-up as MO. Nothing new. Apparently transparency is not a virtue in these networks.
Rachel Denhollander has just outclassed Sovereign Grace Churches, CBMW, T4G The Gospel Coalition, and Kevin DeYoung.
“This former gymnast raised an army to take on Larry Nassar. Can she take on sex abuse in churches next?
”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/02/15/this-former-gymnast-raised-an-army-to-take-on-larry-nassar-can-she-take-on-sex-abuse-in-churches-next/?utm_term=.16014fbbea5f
dee wrote:
From Judges 4, NASB:
“Behold, the Lord, the God of Israel, has commanded, ‘Go and march to Mount Tabor, and take with you ten thousand men from the sons of Naphtali and from the sons of Zebulun. I will draw out to you Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his many troops to the river Kishon, and I will give him into your hand.’” Then Barak said to her, “If you will go with me, then I will go; but if you will not go with me, I will not go.” She said, “I will surely go with you; nevertheless, the honor shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hands of a woman.”
… into the hands of a woman: Rachel, Dee, Deb…
“When a church is more interested in self-preservation than the spiritual health of its members (especially the young), you can be certain that Almighty God is taking notice.” (Deb)
You can be certain that God is not present in their ministry! Certainly, He is near the abused and broken-hearted, but He will not have anything to do with church leaders who are more interested in themselves than their members. Except for a payday someday, of course.
“Over the past few years, we have regularly shared details on these matters privately with those who have approached us in good faith with understandable concerns.” Quote from sovereign grace statement
This. Is. Nonsense. It’s also a real indicator of ONE of the many problems with their theology and doctrine.
“Right after college, I interned at the SGM church I attended all through college. They’re as corrupt, unhealthy, and spiritually abusive organization as you’ll find in American Christianity.” (Ryan M.)
Confirmation from an insider. Although, I wouldn’t consider SGM affiliated with American Christianity (the real one that is).
I have read the response from Sovereign Grace Churches. If I wanted to be an objective observer, how can I be now. I know from the testimony of Brent Detwiler that C.J. Mahaney was not above blackmail of a former ministry co-founder and presumed long time friend. Now I am supposed to believe that he would not lie when he would say “I never conspired to cover up….”. All of the petty ways we know he brow beat and held grudges against those who tried to help him. How he was in my opinion conniving and vindictive and not above spiritual abuse, to hold on to his ministry and remain the king of it. Now I am supposed to believe he is just being persecuted and we should believe him. Sorry C.J. you gave up all credibility a long time ago. And many, many of your former churches and former members saw you for what you were and left.
But still he tries to tell us we just misunderstand. Incredible. His 3 big name friends should be ashamed of themselves. And anybody else who makes excuses for him. Thanks to Rachel for bringing it back to the forefront.
Marge Sweigart wrote:
Nothing worse than a ministry which is a family affair. Blood is thick – they cover for each other. This is particularly the case with church leaders who are in the same family – no accountability structure.
Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:
Don’t forget that the “everything” includes running to Louisville to be sheltered by the most powerful man in the SBC … his T4G bosom-buddy, Al Mohler.
Max wrote:
Why is CJ and his church now affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention??
Jen C wrote:
An example where folks need to judge the cover by its book.
It never fails to amaze me how people who subscribe to Total Depravity can insist that — in practical terms, where the rubber meets the road — it applies to everyone but themselves.
Brava, Rachel. And prayers.
I will allow that CJ and other PDI/SGM/SGC/CLC might not have said the literal words “let’s conspire to cover up sexual abuse. Let’s cover up Nathaniel Morales’ many crimes so he can go on to abuse.”
I will allow it.
Maybe the conversation went more like this: “Let’s handle this in-house; we know better how to deal with sin, and we’re all the worst sinners we know, so hey, we got this covered. Anyway, we wouldn’t want to tarnish The Gospel by alerting the wider public to what has happened within our walls. We got this. We good.”
CJ is really good at skirting responsibility on a technicality. He (and I mean all of SGC) can perhaps say with some truthfulness that these exact words didn’t cross their lips “let’s conspire to cover up child sexual abuse.”
BUT, they’re ACTIONS speak louder than words. They forget that our theology is proven by how we live, not by the mere words we say. The Gospel is a person, Jesus Christ, not a “correct theology.” And boy, do these patriarchal guys like to be correct!!
Probably my favorite quote from SGC’s latest post:
“As for the “culture” charge, nothing could be further from the truth. The culture C.J. helped to create, by the grace of God, was one of loving the gospel, honoring Christ, and pursuing holiness. The church was not a perfect church, but it was a faithful, healthy, and fruitful church. Accusations that C.J. and the pastors at that time created a culture that engendered abuse or enabled abusers is not merely false, it is absurd.”
Covenant Life was NOT a healthy church!! I really believe the pastors then (and maybe even now) believe that everyone else must have surely loved the dearest place on earth as much as they did. They are so out of touch with real people, real problems, real consequences……..
@ Jen C:
Hadn’t heard about that. Hmm….
Jen C wrote:
ChEKA changes its name to OGPU which changes its name to NKVD which changes its name to KGB…
Jen C wrote:
Ees Party Line, Comrades.
Right up there with such Official Truths as “Two Plus Two Equals Five”.
I just re read the statement posted by SGM. I read it yesterday but it triggered so many sickening feelings I couldn’t think clearly enough to comment. I left a SG church over 5 years ago. I was a member for over 13 years (much to my shame). I read the sex abuse stories on this blog and on survivors and that is one of many reasons I finally left.
There are many parts of their statement that are troubling and hurtful but one part that really struck me was the last section that addresses the accusations made about their culture:
“As for the “culture” charge, nothing could be further from the truth. The culture C.J. helped to create, by the grace of God, was one of loving the gospel, honoring Christ, and pursuing holiness. The church was not a perfect church, but it was a faithful, healthy, and fruitful church. Accusations that C.J. and the pastors at that time created a culture that engendered abuse or enabled abusers is not merely false, it is absurd.”
Something that surprised me when I began investigating SG churches (before I left) was how alike the experiences of members were even though the churches were spread out across the country. .The thread that ran thru the members stories was the “culture”. The culture of “believe the best” ,” asking questions is close to gossip and slander” , “women don’t work outside of the home” “girls don’t go to college” “no dating” , “obsessed with sin and the cross” ,” hierarchy of members – pastors, elders, small groups leaders,
men in any leadership position and then the rest of us “minions”. I could go on and on….
It is that very culture that created a “perfect”place for predators. The statement says “it wasn’t a perfect church but it was “faithful, healthy and fruitful”. Prater is right about two of those descriptions -they were/are very faithful to their culture and they have produced “fruit” – rotten fruit. As for healthy ,the longer I am away the more I see just how UNhealthy they are.
This is one of those times I wish I had the gift of writing so I could better express what I’m trying to say. I believe the more they defend themselves the more they open themselves up to examination – perhaps this is a small silver lining .
Marge Sweigart wrote:
Have they claimed Divine Sanction for half-brother/half-sister marriages like in Saudi?
Or just Spanish Hapsburg cousin/cousin marriages?
(Both keep Power and Wealth within The Family and ONLY The Family — NO Outsiders.)
“If your family tree does not fork…” — Jeff Foxworthy
…you might be Royalty (or Head Apostle/Lead Pastor/Elder material.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Agreed. It is a totally depraved thing for SGM to continue to deny past leadership failures to protect their members. As a result, the world and many corners of Christendom continue to call them into account for what they refused to do themselves.
dee wrote:
Now THAT I’d like to see.
She’s on a roll, she’s got name recognition, and she’s been burned by SGM.
Max wrote:
Side effect? The name of Christ stinks like a freshly-opened can of Surstromming.
TomkeinOK wrote:
Ever heard of “Fake News”?
___
Occupy SGM/SGC: “The Whole World Is Watching, Perhaps?””
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mR6BeerSSWw
hmmm…
Intro: Ad hominem, short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
This is what SGM/SGC is currently engaged in as SOP.
Remember: The intellectual visionary is not welcome in SGM/SGC: nor have they ever been welcome.
Critical thinking is not welcome ether.
Neither is an thoroughly mature understanding of the scriptures.
I kid you not!
Consider the New SGM/SGC Religious Calvinist with eyes focus only to see truths that only their so-called Elect, the Enlightened, the Predestined can see.
If only you would REAALLLLY understood their pet doctrines, you would never be sucked into their theological madness and their proverbial highly threatening religious insanity.
Remember, critical review of their dogma is forbidden, because it is the source of their power over you to induce a condition of self-deception.
Remember: They will evangelizes (force) you to join in their un-conscious bliss or you will ahem! Cough Cough, suffer the wrath of their various cosmic powers.
I kid you not!
Note: When folly is advocated as a defense against the obvious, – – as a virtue that defies question, and a shield against interrogation; it begs the question who does the folly serve. The answer will provide you with an understand as to its function. Only you will have to answer your own question, as impertinence or insolence is not tolerated.
Warning: It does not matter how inconsistent the ideas or insane the rationale at the hallowed halls of SGM/SGC are, they will act until their pretzel logic is fulfilled.
Therefore, when you see these masses of obsessive 591(c)3 religious people taking the same destructive actions, find the foundational assumptions and you will find the cause.
By many previous reports, this is no isolated incident of proverbial Pastoral insanity and horrific doctrine-driven conduct. The NOEL story (for example) merely set a new low for a thirty year prevailing internal trend. Noel’s little girl was molested by a 15-year-old recidivist with very sad intentions. In a stroke of proverbial insanity, SGM leadership spent roughly a decade trivializing the boy’s actions and elevating Noel and Grizzly’s response to the boy’s gross injustice in a mad tide of moral equivalency and character assassination. According to Noel’s story as originally posted on http://www.sgmsurvivors.com (see link below),
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/the-stories/
…over time the molester was elevated to some form spiritual leader within the SGM organization.
What?!?
Where was/is SGM/SGC’s participation in the ongoing conversation on sundry blogs concerning their proverbial SGM/SGC 501(c)3 religious insanity? Did anyone in SGM/SGC leadership come forward to the defense of Noel’s daughter, or help her family navigate the onslaught of moral relativism and pastoral council bankruptcy?
***
Kris and Guy at http://www.sgmsurvivors.com are (and have been) ‘pioneers’ ™ for creating the first public forum where people could begin to realize they are not crazy; where people could begin to see that their treatment/mis-treatment was no isolated incident as SGM/SGC was/ is always inclined to portray conflict with their vaunted SGM/SGC leadership as a form of prideful foward behavior.
Or, how about JimP over at http://www.SGMrefuge.com (now closed) who spent the better part of two years OPENLY detailing the SGM/SGC injustice and mistreatment: a man who has OPENLY r and kindly eached out to a number of other denominational leaders in an effort to galvanize people towards bringing this path of destruction to a close?
That was pioneering work.
And I am Sooo not done pioneering my response as well.
(grin)
—> Shock The Proverbial SGC/SGC Pastoral Monkey(s), Perhaps?
SKreeeeeeeeeeetch!
—> Be set free;
Cuz whom Christ sets free is free indeed!
(Sêê the Bible for details…)
Q. Are you hurting, maybe fearful, or seriously confused about the content of your spiritual life and the pain of spiritual abuse SGM/SGC has caused you?
You might want to start your busy schedule today with a small note or brief call to the Wartburgwatch.com blog (their contact info is kindly listed on a page linked at the top of their blog) You will find these fine ladies very helpful… And you’ll be very glad you did!
Please remember: the more an individual has been a member of an authoritarian group such as SGM/SGC, the less likely they will be able to successfully (on their own) address ‘their’ own pressing needs, and present concerns.
*
*
Blessings!
ATB
Sòpy
—
intermission:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=egJR3K6UIJY
;~)
– –
They have shared details (1)‘privately’ with ‘those who have (2)approached us (3)in good faith (4)with understandable concerns’.
That is a LOT of qualifications.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yet we pew-peons can get past the Fake News fakery via Mr. Google. Thankfully!
A few years ago I saw a fascinating film about the marketing and advertising industries, called The Naked Brand. It pointed out that marketers used to be able to pull the wool over people’s eyes, but that’s no longer true. The Internet has changed everything. Unscrupulous companies can be exposed to the world by mom bloggers, Yelp reviews, Glassdoor reviews, Facebook pages, Internet discussion fora, etc. The film cited a case in which a mom blogger brought down one evil marketer…I forget the circumstances, as it has been a few years since I saw the film, but it was pretty inspiring, a true David-vs-Goliath story. More recently, companies that have shown sneering contempt for their customers — e.g., LuluLemon — have been seriously burned by customer blowback over the Internet. Go, customers!
I’m certainly not saying that justice will always be done just because information is so much more accessible than it used to be. Nonetheless, as LuluLemon learned and CJ is now learning, both sportswear buyers and pew-peons currently have more access to the truth — and hence more power — than we used to have.
Power to the pew-peons!
Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:
It is amazing that people fail to note this. And the rebranding/name change deal.
That stuff doesn’t scream ‘nothing to see here’.
Lea wrote:
Especially the “privately” part!
Lea wrote:
It sure is. I’m no PR expert, but does anyone else think that Sovereign Grace would have done better to just be silent than to put out this statement? Their true believers and stakeholders are sticking by them no matter what, and anyone with concerns has to be dissatisfied with this. This statement shows very little insight IMO.
@ The other deb:
Then why did “C.J.” run away??
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Which is really weird.
I remain morbidly fascinated by Mohler et al’s commitment to CJ. Why has he not been pushed out of the “inner circle”? I don’t actually expect any of them to admit being wrong, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he became so problematic for them that he just disappeared from conferences, etc, as if they never knew him. I know that some have attributed the loyalty to his giving money to various ministries and institutions, but I’m not convinced that the amounts of money have been large enough to continue to buy his seat at this table.
Lea wrote:
Lea, I thought the same thing! Of course, only “healthy” churches require that you approach them privately, in good faith, and with understandable concern.
Here’s the implication: if you dare publicly “accuse” a pastor of anything, you are not a person of good faith and your concern is self-motivated, and you are easily discredited in their stingy economy. (Straw man anyone?) You can’t be angry, depressed, have mixed motives, have suffered abuse yourself, be unfaithful in your church attendance, and a host of other disqualifying factors.
Caroline wrote:
This has always been my thought as well. 10k for Dever? That’s not enough.
Also, there was some clip the other day for that t4tg with four of them, and CJ was downright embarrassing Mohler. He was cringing. Interesting to watch.
dee wrote:
That’s hardly a surprise.
Deb mentioned that Mahaney and Co’s latest statement proves that “they have no heart”. My opinion: it’s proof they have no brains. Seriously, they imagine that they can tell Rachael Denhollander what the law is all about!? This is so breathtakingly stupid, I can hardly believe that they’ve gone this far.
Apart from trying to convince their remaining sheep that “we’re winning”, I have no idea what they hope to accomplish with this.
Sovereign Grace has Mohler and co in back pocket. Full protection for years. Denhollander is at SBTS.
The cognitive dissonance is mind numbing.
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
My long time complaint about that doctrine!
I, too, read the Washington Post article Dee referenced when Jacob posted it on his wife’s Facebook page. That Rachael and Jacob remain clear thinkers throughout this ordeal is impressive. ““You saw again the exact same dynamics that sexual assault victims always suffer from: minimizing the severity of the abuse, mitigating the damage that was done, and misusing principles of grace and forgiveness to keep a man in leadership who has done something that is very, very serious and disqualifying from leadership.””
The article concluded with an announcement Rachael and Jacob are expecting their fourth child in July! Congratulations. I will be praying for them and especially for Rachel’s health and well-being. (Hopefully no one will do a drive by and kick sand in my face, so to speak, for saying I’ll be praying.) The love and support this couple has for one another, the discipline it takes to obtain college degrees in law and religion while having a young family is also very impressive. And to take on this fight, which comes with a very high price in a multitude of ways, to include others takes tremendous strength.
@ Caroline:
They are using the opportunity to rewrite history. Then they can point people to the statement. Viola!
I skimmed it and found glaring problems that should be fact checked with a timeline.
“Gene [Emerson] was found guilty in Chesterfield County Court of soliciting a prostitute. To this day, he continues to maintain that he is innocent of any illicit activity, though he has humbly acknowledged a significant lapse in judgement regarding his conduct throughout the situation.””
+++++++++++++++++++++
my, my, my…. if this doesn’t typify responses from so many evangelical leaders when faced with confrontation of the facts.
“it is completely false that SGM leaders conspired to cover up abuse” and they corporately and individually told parents of molested and raped children not to say a word.
“i wasn’t a pastor just a worker” and yes his title was youth pastor.
“we champion women” “equality” “this is not discrimination”, while they simultaneously deny women agency and opportunity and the sound of her voice and the exercise of her knowledge, skill, expertise.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
This is an incredibly dynastic attitude. Have lots of sons, but daughters are ok too because you can marry them off and bring more sons into the family.
This is really sick thinking, and I’m not just throwing stones. What made me stop being a comp was realizing I was just a moderate Doug Wilson. This really shook me up, so I followed the comp logic all the way to the ground and realized this is where it leads.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
The world has made more sense to me since I rejected the doctrine of total depravity. I believe that none of us is all we were created to be, but that isn’t the same thing. Total depravity necessarily leads to sin leveling
Lea wrote:
More like a lot of hoops to jump through. Righteously angry parents and abused children probably not included. All their good buddies (Mohler, Dever, Ligon Duncan, Kevin DeYoung, etc.) probably so.
Sovereign Grace Churches, I will be calling you out in Louisville because you decided to go after victims of your own inaction and bad actions again!
Lydia wrote:
But why? Has that much money changed hands? Or is it just that important to save face?
I agree about the cognitive dissonance.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I think that’s all they’re doing…giving their followers and sycophants something to point to and say ‘See! Asked and answered.’ Just like people who dismiss everything because a lawsuit SOL issue. Ludicrous on its face.
@ Caroline:
We know that SGM gave a bunch of money to Al Moher’s seminary and to the Southern Baptist Convention, even though they aren’t part of the denomination. They also paid for Wayne Grudem’s sabbatical so he could work on the ESV, the translation that was good enough for Calvin, so it’s good enough for us (sarcasm).
Ricco wrote:
Could not agree more.
@ Ricco:
I’ve heard about those donations, but Is that really enough? If I remember correctly, the donations small amounts compared to the massive $$$ that moves through the SBC. (This is a few years old but here’s a link to some of the convention’s financial numbers from a past SBC president http://www.ronniefloyd.com/blog/8470/southern-baptist-convention/11-financial-facts-of-the-southern-baptist-convention-2/ )
It seems risky for Mohler to risk losing support of even a portion of the SBC pewsitters for the relatively small following of Mahaney and SGM.
@ Caroline:
Should say “donations were small amounts”
I never seem to be able to comment here without sounding like an idiot.
—> TWW please note: This is an Corrected Copy… Thanx!
___
Occupy SGM/SGC: “The Whole World Is Watching, Perhaps?””
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mR6BeerSSWw
hmmm…
Intro: Ad hominem, short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
This is what SGM/SGC is currently engaged in as SOP.
Remember: The intellectual visionary is not welcome in SGM/SGC: nor have they ever been welcome.
Critical thinking is not welcome ether.
Neither is an thoroughly mature understanding of the scriptures.
I kid you not!
Consider the New SGM/SGC Religious Calvinist with eyes focused only to see truths that only their so-called Elect, the Enlightened, the Predestined can see.
If only you would REAALLLLY understood their pet doctrines, you would never be sucked into their theological madness and their proverbial highly threatening religious insanity.
Remember, critical review of their dogma is forbidden, because it is the source of their power over you to induce a condition of self-deception.
Remember: They will evangelizes (force) you to join in their un-conscious bliss or you will ahem! Cough Cough, suffer the wrath of their various cosmic powers.
I kid you not!
Note: When folly is advocated as a defense against the obvious, – – as a virtue that defies question, and a shield against interrogation; it begs the question who does the folly serve. The answer will provide you with an understanding as to its function. Only you will have to answer your own question, as impertinence or insolence is not tolerated.
Warning: It does not matter how inconsistent the ideas or insane the rationale at the hallowed halls of SGM/SGC, they will act until their pretzel logic is fulfilled.
Therefore, when you see these masses of obsessive 501(c)3 religious people taking the same destructive actions, find the foundational assumptions and you will find the cause.
By many previous reports, this is no isolated incident of proverbial Pastoral insanity and horrific doctrine-driven conduct. The NOEL story (for example) merely set a new low for a thirty year prevailing internal trend. Noel’s little girl was molested by a 15-year-old recidivist with very sad intentions. In a stroke of proverbial insanity, SGM leadership spent roughly a decade trivializing the boy’s actions and elevating Noel and Grizzly’s response to the boy’s gross injustice in a mad tide of moral equivalency and character assassination. According to Noel’s story as originally posted on http://www.sgmsurvivors.com (see link below),
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/the-stories/
…over time the molester was elevated to some form spiritual leader within the SGM organization.
What?!?
Where was/is SGM/SGC’s participation in the ongoing conversation on sundry blogs concerning their proverbial SGM/SGC 501(c)3 religious insanity? Did anyone in SGM/SGC leadership come forward to the defense of Noel’s daughter, or help her family navigate the onslaught of moral relativism and pastoral council bankruptcy?
***
Kris and Guy at http://www.sgmsurvivors.com are (and have been) ‘pioneers’ ™ for creating the first public forum where people could begin to realize they are not crazy; where people could begin to see that their treatment/mis-treatment was no isolated incident as SGM/SGC was/ is always inclined to portray conflict with their vaunted SGM/SGC leadership as a form of prideful foward behavior.
Or, how about JimP over at http://www.SGMrefuge.com (now closed) who spent the better part of two years OPENLY detailing the SGM/SGC injustice and mistreatment: a man who has OPENLY r and kindly reached out to a number of other denominational leaders in an effort to galvanize people towards bringing this path of destruction to a close?
That was pioneering work.
And I am Sooo not done pioneering my response as well.
(grin)
—> Shock The Proverbial SGC/SGC Pastoral Monkey(s), Perhaps?
SKreeeeeeeeeeetch!
—> Be set free;
Cuz whom Christ sets free is free indeed!
(Sêê the Bible for details…)
Q. Are you hurting, maybe fearful, or seriously confused about the content of your spiritual life and the pain of spiritual abuse SGM/SGC has caused you?
You might want to start your busy schedule today with a small note or brief call to the Wartburgwatch.com blog (their contact info is kindly listed on a page linked at the top of their blog) You will find these fine ladies very helpful… And you’ll be very glad you did!
Please remember: the more an individual has been a member of an authoritarian group such as SGM/SGC, the less likely they will be able to successfully (on their own) address ‘their’ own pressing needs, and present concerns.
*
*
Blessings!
ATB
Sòpy
—
intermission:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=egJR3K6UIJY
;~)
– –
I grew up in Harrisonburg VA in the Mennonite Church. Both sides of my family grew up as conservative Mennonites, either in our parents or grandparents generation. I remember always hearing as a kid about not turning people in to the police. Mennonites are strong form pacifists. My wife learned in Mennonite school that if someone breaks into your house and rapes your wife, you should not use violence to resist that person. The police use violence, therefore they should never be involved.
3 years or so ago, there was a big scandal where Luke Hartman, a professor at Eastern Mennonite University, formerly of Heston University (Mennonite), Heston Basketball Coach, and Public School Administrator, had a *organic sexual experience* with a young girl in the youth group he was leading. The church, Linville Mennonite, did the typical thing and tried to “handle it in house” with the typical disastrous results. This young women was very brave, and did just disappear.
I never realized the link between the pacifist “don’t call the police” mindset and sex-abuse coverup until today. This story immediately made me think of the attitude of not involving the authorities I was taught as a kid. This is dangerous, stupid, and flat-out wrong. I think it grows out of this idea that we have to separate ourselves from the world. The Mennonites have always believed that and have lived it out with dress codes, passive resistance, pacifism, non-participation in government, and closed communities. SGM is operating in the same paradigm. I have found the dualism between the secular and the sacred to be incredibly damaging in my own life. This life is real, and we can live in the reality of Jesus or we can choose to live for ourselves with no regard for others. Either way, how we live in this world matters because our lives affect others who Jesus also loves (all people). Dividing people into the “godly” and the “wicked” seems to always have the same, horrible results.
@ Caroline:
You are great! You are right, it seems like an incredibly small amount of money. I don’t have a good answer for you. It could be ideological corruption rather than money corruption. These guys are big time culture warriors. When you are at war, you ally yourself with anyone fighting the same enemy. That leads you to do horrible things and align yourself with horrible people (think the US allied with the USSR in WWII). The problem is, the Gospel of Jesus isn’t a war, it is good news for all people. This is one of the reasons I formally retired from the culture war (read I told my wife I retired). I hated the idea that I have to be an ally of anyone fighting the people evangelical elites are telling me to fight.
Maybe this explains it, but it is speculation. I don’t really understand this very much anymore. It is incredibly stupid and is highly likely it will blow up in people like Al Mohler’s face.
Ricco wrote:
Thus uniting House Baratheon and House Lannister on the Iron Throne.
(Or House Bolton securing the North by forced marriage of the last known Stark daughter…)
Let the Game of Thrones begin.
Ricco wrote:
You see a secular version of this with the Social Activists turned Assemblymen-for-Life in Sacramento.
Though “Corruption of Righteousness” is more descriptive than “ideological corruption”.
You would not believe how Pious and Righteous the ideologically-corrupt can get for The Cause.
Ken A wrote:
All depends on Redefining “conspire” and “cover up”.
All Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.
Ricco wrote:
And when that isn’t Godly and Separated enough for you, there’s the Old Order Mennonites.
And when that isn’t Godly and Separated enough, the Amish.
And when that isn’t Godly and Separated enough, the Old Order Amish.
And when that isn’t Godly and Separated enough…
See where Entropy over time plus “Can You Top This?” can lead?
Caroline wrote:
Money is a carrot.
What if Cee Jay has a stick as well?
(There’s been off-and-on speculation of blackmail behind the scenes. Chuckle Chuckle.)
Lydia wrote:
Oceania has ALWAYS Been at Peace With Eurasia and the Chocolate Ration has ALWAYS been Ten Grams!
@ Ricco:
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I’m realizing that I sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist. I think that there must be something about CJ that keeps him from being dropped. I don’t think blackmail is too far-fetched.
Caroline wrote:
These folks are New Calvinists. It’s commonly reported that a streak of arrogance runs through their tribe. You cannot get an arrogant leader to remain silent for very long; know-it-all-I-am-right guys must defend themselves – it’s in their DNA. They refuse to be corrected and rebuked; such folks dig the hole deeper and deeper until they can’t get out. In this case, they use talk as a shovel.
I don’t think the issue is money. It is the protection of their reputations. People use money to protect reputations but I don’t think enough money (that we know of) has changed hands to allow for this widespread cover up. Those who support CJ do not have the guts to admit their mistake (or else they are criminally lazy and not willing to read a few documents). I tweeted a plea to Josh Harris to please make a public statement. For some reason I believe that out of the bunch, he might be the most likely to ever do so. He was humble enough to admit that “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” had caused some harm so he may be willing to address this issue.
@ Caroline:
I think it is completely reasonable to ask this question. There is probably a rational reason for how these people are behaving, it is just hidden. The other possibility is these people are hopelessly stupid. I don’t know which it is.
Ricco wrote:
After Mahaney gave that wad of money to Mohler, he and Sovereign Grace Church-Louisville joined the SBC. It was a very quiet thing – but, yep, they are Southern Baptists now!
http://www.sbc.net/church/2015064333/sovereign-grace-church-of-louisville
Ken A wrote:
Just to play devil’s advocate for a second here— SGC are really missing an opportunity. Point out the domestic violence accusations against “Satin, the Rod, and Your Child’s Bod” (or something like that) author Larry. Point out that much of the alleged violence happened AFTER the chuckling humble one rightly degiffed and unapostled Larry.
While you’re at it, point out that many of the other mistakes were made “37 years ago” or similar. Always specify the number of years ago rather than the dates. If it was 37 years ago it likely never happened at all, just like the moon landings.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
The problems in SG are immense. Definitely requires investigation.
Caroline wrote:
Mohler only has to have the support of the Trustees of Southern Seminary and sometimes just the Executive Committe. They are the ONLY ones he is directly accountable too. For evidence, look at the recent granting of a retirement home to Paige Patterson on SWBTS’s property. All it took to accomplish this was a vote of the Executive Committee behind closed doors.
It’s fascinating to watch how they keep trying to rewrite reality and pretend that nothing happened. Funny how they keep trying to tell Rachel what to think and then being shocked that she can process info without their guidance! No surprise after Ray Ortland wrote a whole chapter in Recovering Biblical Manhood about keeping women in their place.
Ray taught
“A man, just by virtue of his manhood is called to lead for God.”
(p. 102)
(Question—So does that make Nassar qualified to lead and Rachel disqualified?)
“(Eve) was not his equal….”
(p.102)
“The man interprets her identity in relation to himself….not only for his own understanding of her but also for her self-understanding.” (p. 102)
“(God) allowed Adam to define the woman, in keeping with Adam’s headship. Adam’s sovereign act not only arose out of his own sense of headship, it also made his headship clear to Eve.” (p. 103)
“She found her own identity in relation to the man….by the man’s definition.”
(p.103)
Read between the lines. Ortlund believes that it’s his job to do the thinking for women since obviously God didn’t give us brains to think for ourselves! That’s why they are trying to tell Rachel what her own experience is.
FW Rez wrote:
And all of these folks are obviously in Mohler’s pocket. It’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen … for millions of Southern Baptists (predominantly non-Calvinist) to allow one man to redirect the belief and practice of a whole denomination. The man is bullet-proof.
Max wrote:
“It is with a single man that error usually commences” (Al Mohler quoting James Boyce, SBTS Convocation Address, 1993)
@ Caroline:
I’m morbidly fascinated by this too. Why are they so committed to propping him up, way beyond anything that seems reasonable? It does seem like it has to be more than money – but what?
Rachel,
We are praying for you and your family. Whatever you decide to do next—KEEP TALKING!!!!
The more you talk, the more terrified they are of you!
“Shout loudly! Don’t be quiet! Yell as loud as a trumpet! Confront my people with their rebellious deeds…”
Isaiah 58:1a (NLT)
@ FW Rez:
I understand that there is little direct accountability. I was thinking more indirectly of decreasing the cash flow in the convention as a whole, which could impact his seminary in a bigger way over time than some generous one-time donations.
If money is the motivation, it would be more lucrative to make some power-plays within the denomination. I don’t think money is the (sole) motivation for keeping CJ around.
Now, who can I talk to about getting one of those fancy retirement homes?
GC wrote:
Perhaps a “blood pact” between T4G’s Fab Four (Mahaney, Mohler, Dever, Duncan)? Stick together to the bitter end? Stand together against all attacks for the good of the movement? Or something more sinister?
Max wrote:
Yeah, I’ve seen this stuff first-hand. What Mohler decides, happens. Whether or not anybody seems to agree with him or likes him.
I think they could have an evil supernatural force behind them…
Caroline wrote:
There’s a committee to decide what gets discussed at the convention and it has been stacked with New Calvinists, just like the Executive committee.
Now, I personally think the New Cals will burn themselves out in the not too distant future. People are onto them now, particularly after eternal subordination of the Son and aforementioned ESV 2016 debacle.
I don’t think people usually stay in New Calvinism. They target brash, arrogant very young men who think that women will be their slaves, and then they find out that they aren’t as smart as they think and women are not as stupid as they think.
People are already leaving the SBC in large numbers. While some of these leaders might politico themselves into the future, I don’t think they will do it with New Calvinism.
ishy wrote:
There’s no doubt that what is going on in the SBC right now is “spiritual” … and it ain’t Holy Spirit!
ishy wrote:
For some reason, I’m now plotting out a 2018 version of a Frank Peretti novel…
ishy wrote:
Oh yeah, that is SOP for the ruling party in SBC during any given year – control the narrative. The story with Frank Page puzzles me though; as President & CEO of the SBC Executive Committee, Dr. Page once was a very vocal anti-Calvinist – he even wrote a book “Trouble with the Tulip” when New Calvinism began to raise its head in SBC ranks. It appears that Dr. Mohler got the upper hand on Dr. Page somehow … Mohler is smooth.
Lea wrote:
I’m convinced that the New Calvinist mess and its various manifestations (from Mohler to Mahaney … from T4G to TGC … from Piper to Driscoll … authoritarian control, subordination of women, etc. etc.) will be the subject of a 20/20 report, 60 Minutes episode, or something similar. It’s just too juicy for the media to pass up. And it ain’t Fake News!
Max wrote:
Yeah. There’s definitely some weird stuff going on, as we saw with Patterson and his SBC-funded seminary grounds retirement home. Patterson was definitely not a New Cal, either, and was quite vocal about soul competency at one time. I remember him talking about it.
This is why I find the rumor that Mahaney is blackmailing people to keep his place has merit. I think these alley deals go on a lot more than we think with these guys.
Lea wrote:
I actually started a fantasy novel that had some basis in this. I’d like to get back to it, but going back to (software development) school via scholarship kinda stalled that.
ishy wrote:
Patterson is done – he just hasn’t quit yet. All these SBC elite must have dirt on each other. Speaking of dirt, what happened to Paul Pressler, architect of SBC’s Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence? Last time I saw him in the news, there was allegation of messing with boys in his past. Good Lord, it’s amazing that SBC has been able to survive as a denomination – it won’t much longer.
Max wrote:
Well, if you ever want to see him, I’m sure the horrifically ugly SWBTS chapel stained-glass windows will accommodate.
Satin wrote:
“God, the Rod and Your Child’s Bod” by Larry Tomczak. Of all the allegedly religious subjects he could write about, he chooses corporal punishment. Now this is outside of child sexual abuse, but I wonder how many Sovereign Grace kids were beaten raw by their parents because they didn’t obey the first time?
@ ishy:
A lot of these guys are whatever the current audience needs them to be. Criswell was somewhat Calvinist. Patterson worked for him for years.
@ Max:
Peer pressure is a thing with grown ups, too.
Lydia wrote:
I don’t think Patterson has ever publicly taken up New Cal theology, though. And though there are New Cal elements at SWBTS, it has remained much less reformed than the eastern seminaries.
Now, one thing they seem to wholeheartedly agree on is complementarianism. Though, Patterson seemed just fine with female missionaries when I knew him. That’s something Akin quickly changed when he took over.
Caroline wrote:
You aren’t crazy. Many hints have been dropped over the years (won’t mention them so won’t be deleted anywhere just in case) that Mahaney runs the conference organizing . This goes way back to him and Dever when CJ was emperor of his empire and didn’t have anyone to answer to.. I am not so sure they could easily extricate themselves from whatever agreement is in place. Nothing else makes sense. CJ continues to be a total embarrassment. But why do they do stupid things like Russ Moore having CJ write the forward when his book was republished. This was pretty recent. All the info out there. They go out of their way to give CJ credibility. It boggles.
Caroline wrote:
Money changed hands with big donations years back. But, CJ was to bring his “family of churches” into the super sized reformed movement Mohler was building that was taking over everything. It was so bad for a while that Mohler at SBTS was awarding academic credits to CJ’s “pastors college” boys. The pastors college is a joke. Most did not even have Bachelors degrees! More like a shepherding cult initiation. There was a big pushback in the SBC blogosphere on that when people found out. Now they all pretend it never happened. Right. Mohler the Scholar. Sheesh!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think the Deebs hit the nail on the head with “It’s the money”. Together for the Gospel 2016 was reported to draw 20,000 willing participants to plop down over a $100.00 for the privilege of hearing these guys. Do the math. They are all making quite a nice check on this venue. There are lots more places where they give each other speaking fees. They do quite well with these things. It would be tragic (for them) if they let something happen to end all this cash coming in, wouldn’t it?
@ Max:
Some of Patterson’s protégés have talked in the past. I want to know why NONE of Mohlers ever do. I knew a few who worked for him who told me things AFTER they left SBTS and the SBC AND moved away. They were that scared of his influence.
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
Seriously, one could write a book or two just about the close tie-in between corporal punishment and child sexual abuse, all within just a couple degrees separation from CJ. The guy hopefully to go on trial soon in AZ had several victims he allegedly beat without molesting, and a couple others with both. I don’t think he’s friends with CJ, but a former friend of friends. Then there’s Smyth, whose son now leads CLC. Several alleged victims in the lawsuit reported both beatings and sexual assaults. These guys love beating kids’ BARE behinds, as if the Bible commanded this somewhere.
@ Ken A:
BINGO!
Lydia wrote:
Control, manipulation, and intimidation are not fruit of the Spirit.
@ Lydia:
@ Ken A:
Your comments help me to make a little more sense of this. It seems that T4G provides a significant amount of personal income for each of them. And possibly the original agreements are such that there can be no T4G without CJ. If so, things will have to get much more uncomfortable before they distance themselves from him. (That may happen yet. As Lea (I think) mentioned upthread, he seems to make Mohler cringe a bit already.)
Report: International Relief Charities Have ‘Institutionalised Pedophilia’ Problem
https://hotair.com/archives/2018/02/15/report-thousands-predatory-sex-abusers-target-aid-charity-jobs-get-close-vulnerable-women-children/
A WHISTLE blower has claimed UN staff could have carried out 60,000 rapes in the last decade as aid workers indulge in sex abuse unchecked around the world.
The claim is in a bombshell dossier that former senior United Nations official Andrew Macleod handed over to DFID Secretary Priti Patel last year.
In it, Professor Macleod also estimated there are 3,300 paedophiles working for the world body’s various agencies alone.
Thousands more “predatory” sex abusers specifically target aid charity jobs to get close to vulnerable women and children…
Caroline wrote:
Hmmm, this is a good theory.
ishy wrote:
Could have?
I believe in the existence of supernatural agency, much to the chagrin of my uber-liberal-progressive brethren who believe no such thing:
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
— From the writings of St. Paul —
ishy wrote:
Look for a New Calvinist to assume the presidency at SWBTS when Patterson retires. Mohler will hand-pick him. Mohler’s fingerprints can be seen on other seminary presidential appointments: Danny Akin at SEBTS (former Dean of the School of Theology, and Senior Vice President for Academic Administration at SBTS under Mohler) … Jason Allen at MWBTS (former Executive Assistant to Mohler at SBTS). Mohler is a great strategist. If he was a general on the battlefield, he would win the war. If he was a CEO at a major corporation, he would crush competitors. He is behind the New Calvinist takeover of the SBC, while the non-Calvinist majority slumbers. The SBC pew is financing this rebellion; they ain’t got a clue!
Hmm.
ishy wrote:
They are Keepers of the Brothers’ (Each Others’) Secrets?
Please pray for me and my family!
@ Sam:
Praying.
Max wrote:
I would like to see Craig Blaising as the next President. He is now Executive Vice President and Provost, Professor of Theology. We were classmates in seminary (Dallas) and I have a lot of respect for him.
Avid Reader wrote:
Oftentimes, I wonder if the CBMW and the contributors to RBMW believe females are even human. And, as far as Rachael D. isconcerned, since her hubby is a student at SBTS they probably assumed she was well trained to jump through all of the appropriate hoops at the YRR championship wife show.
Daisy wrote:
Ding, ding, ding. Russell Moore (SBC ERLC) is connected to the UN. Shhhhhhh!
You expressed it beautifully. So complex, but you made me understand. Everyone needs to read and understand your points here about “culture.”
By the way, so happy that you got out! @ Soarin”:
@ Sam:
I prayed for you and your family just now.
Sam wrote:
Praying
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
That’s a perfect metaphor for their view of women.
@ drstevej:
Or David Allen, perhaps?
I just think it’s going to be a tough row to hoe for any SBC non-Calvinist to become the next President at SWBTS. I figure the Mohler machine has been working behind the scenes to make sure this doesn’t happen. Mohler has power. The New Calvinists have assumed leadership at most SBC entities (leading seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house) – Calvinization of the denomination is well underway.
GC wrote:
http://www.janaygarrick.com/pink-blog/2018/1/25/youre-egalitarian-youre-fired
Someone who didn’t jump. Through all the appropriate hoops.
FW Rez wrote:
And who’s the Chairman of the Executive Committee of SBTS’s Board of Trustees?
Mr. Matt Scmucker of course. Schmucker’s bio at 9Marks:
“Matt Schmucker was the founding executive director of 9Marks. He now organizes several conferences, including Together for the Gospel”
@ Todd Wilhelm:
How did Joshua Harris go from Gresham, OR, to back East? Do you know where along the timeline the CJ connection occurs?
Leeman interviewing Schmucker and 9Mark Dever in a recently posted video celebrating the business’s twentieth anniversary:
https://www.9marks.org/interview/ep37/
At 3:40-4:40 they let slip a bit more info about who Mister Moneybags was, the unsaved neighbor who bankrolled the Center for Church Reform (later renamed 9Marks) to the tune of $100,000 per year for three years.
Schmucker identifies the neighbor as a history buff with a PhD from Yale.
When Schmucker admits “To this day I’m not sure he’s a believer,” Dever says “He certainly means to be.”
Huh? “He means to be a believer”? Is that some sort of 9Marxist lingo?
Does anyone know whether PDI doing outreach at the University of Maryland in the 1980s?
https://www.9marks.org/article/journaltestimonies-underestimated-gospel/
“9Marks asked all the T4G plenary and break-out speakers and panelists to provide us with a one sentence answer to this question: What were the human means and instruments of your conversion?”
Matt Schmucker: “I was converted during my senior year at the University of Maryland through hearing an open-air preacher after listening to him for three years.”
Max wrote:
Praying!
Soarin” wrote:
Reminiscent of another autocratic paradise, this one from the Prisoner TV series in which authority is never to be questioned — even as they work to use the prisoners for their own gain: “Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself.”
Wow, per the last post, I’m secretly Canadian, eh? Beauty!
Daisy wrote:
As a side note, the ERLC is a Southern Baptist organization headed by Russell Moore. In a rather lengthy article I outlined the ERLC’s involvement with the United Nations. https://thouarttheman.org/2016/10/14/ethicsreligiouslibertycommission/
One would rightly wonder why the SBC has seen fit to use donor dollars to support the United Nations.
Nathan Priddis wrote:
This might help:
http://www.newreleasetoday.com/authordetail.php?aut_id=31
I’m praying that the entire lid will be fully blown off of SGM, the Pipers, the Mohlers and those supporting SGM. Christians that claim Christ as their Lord and Savior, that unduly follow men, and not Christ, should be completely ashamed of themselves.
Brent Detwiler laid the groundwork showing the Christian community what a farce CJ Mahaney and company are. Now I am praying that Rachel will show the WORLD this same truth. Go Rachel!
I was in SGM for 25+ years. I stood up to my pastor and confronted him with all of the facts that plagued Mahaney and the leadership team. I literally begged him to take our church and leave SGM. Didn’t matter. His heart was for CJ, not Jesus. He is now leading one of the SGM regions.
This is the problem! Leadership with tremendous pride. And followers who care more their “leaders” than their Savior.
Somewhereintime wrote:
I agree. The whole thng needs to be exposed. This business about statutes of limitations, witnesses, etc is ridiculous. Children and young people are being thrown to the wolves while the wolves get protection. It makes me sick. Our judicial system should be ashamed. These churches are about evil men. There is absolutely nothing about Jesus in them. They pay lip service to the One who has the power to throw them into hell.
It makes me so sick. Every morning I read about a new report.
GC wrote:
I think its creepy in this crowd how the only mention of women tends to be as ‘wives’. They are nothing else.
Lea wrote:
The power dynamics between women depend completely on the status of the men – deacon’s wife, elder’s wife, pastor’s wife, etc.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
From the linked article you mention:
“The celebrity leaders listed above have paid lip-service to articles such as Mohler’s, many have even added policies at their churches aimed at implementing Mohler’s suggestions, but when it comes to actually carrying out these policies we have seen, at least when it comes to a fellow celebrity preacher, they side with the enabler/abuser and have no time for the victims of sexual abuse.”
” … we share and commend Rachael’s passionate concern for victims of sexual abuse. Having said that …” (SGM Statement, Feb. 13)
Whenever you hear “Having said that”, you can rest assured that the speaker is about to negate anything affirmative they may have said before. They are about to unload something that will disagree with what they uttered in their previous breath; a big slam on Rachael is forthcoming. It’s a phrase used to signal I-am-right/you-are wrong, a defensive posture that SGM continues to hold. If they reverse their position on this now, they are done and they know it.
“To all Christians, truth matters, and zeal without knowledge leads to error and strife.” (SGM Statement, Feb. 13)
Good Lord, people, read the countless real-life accounts of SGM victims! They are the source of truth and knowledge which continues to cry out against you! Their zeal is to bring to light what was done in the dark, to expose SGM leaders who covered abuse and protected abusers.
” … one of the two churches that were accused of wrongdoing commissioned an independent investigation of its involvement in these matters …” (SGM Statement, Feb. 13)
To be “independent” means that you don’t depend on your parents to pay your bills.
“The statute of limitations is no mere technicality, but a legal provision that protects people from false accusations made many years after the fact.” (SGM Statement, Feb. 13)
Uhhhh … SOL laws were never intended to protect people from accusations … most sources define a statute of limitation as simply “any law that bars claims after a certain period of time passes after an injury.” While civil laws establish SOL timeframes, in the Kingdom of God there is no SOL when it comes to abuse of God’s people by overlords. Payday someday.
“With respect to caring for victims, we readily acknowledge that we have learned much over the last 30+ years.” (SGM Statement, Feb. 13)
Why should church leaders have to learn anything in this regard?! If one is truly called to shepherd God’s people, He has a responsibility to care for them as soon as he hits the pulpit. Protecting and caring for victims should be in his DNA. He shouldn’t have to ‘learn’ to do that!! Having to learn such behavior is a sure sign that these leaders should have never been in a leadership capacity in the first place.
“The culture C.J. helped to create, by the grace of God, was one of loving the gospel, honoring Christ, and pursuing holiness.” (SGM Statement, Feb. 13)
Many under his leadership at the time say otherwise. They refer to control, manipulation, and intimidation. The self-proclaimed Apostle fell far short of your claim.
It’s clear from reading the statement in its entirety that SGM leaders are too emotionally invested in this matter – they continue to hold particular beliefs that aren’t letting them clearly see other viewpoints, nor respect multiple reports by SGM survivors. This is a huge bias blind spot on their part. I suppose I am biased, too … and, if proven wrong on this issue, I guess I will just have to stand guilty before God for loving folks too much and taking the side of those who have claimed they were abused. Then again, any church leader should be biased to love their members and help them on their Christian journey rather than take advantage of them – reports to the contrary continue to stream across cyberspace.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Yes, that’s what bothers me! It’s so pervasive.
The obvious solution to their belief that they can’t be alone with women seems to be so simple – women as elders, pastors, deacons…
These people do NOT hate child rape.
Mercy wrote:
IMHO every state should abolish “statutes of limitations” for sex offenses against minors (or against the powerless, regardless of age).
Max wrote:
My understanding is that trustees do the hiring. If PP has them enough under his control to arrange a retirement home on property for the rest of his life, I imagine he will get to same his successor.
It is crystal clear that C.J. Mahaney, his churches, and his friends do not think child sexual abuse should be against the law. Any parent or church who does not see to it that a child’s rapist go to prison does not believe the rape of the child is prison worthy.
Is child rape legal? Do these churches want it to be?
If you do not hate the rape of a child you have no right to have children and should not be allowed around children. There is nothing more vile and evil than child sexual abuse.
@ FW Rez:
Patterson used to vigorously debate Mohler on reformed theology. At one time, PP would have been characterized as anti-Calvinist. Then he got strangely quiet as New Calvinism began to sweep through SBC ranks. Could it be that Patterson and Mohler cut some sort of deal? I think a New Calvinist will be the next SWBTS President – and it could very well be one that PP blesses before the trustee board, as strange as that may sound.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Also, every time they want a woman’s perspective, they refer to these men’s wives. Like, maybe your wife is an idiot.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Absolutely!
@ Max:
Nicely summarized… as I said above, true “saints” do not run away and hide behind Statue of Limitations… they are cowards, defending a coward… if all the accusation are untrue, as SGM claims, stand up and defend yourselves! And if they are saints and did nothing wrong, what did they “learn”??
Muslin fka Deana Holmes wrote:
As of now, comrades, Larry Tomczak never existed!
Nathan Priddis wrote:
As of now, comrades, Joshua Harris never existed!
Somewhereintime wrote:
As of now, comrades…..
Same goes for Dave Harvey. Same for Covenant Life Church — according to “A response to allegations” it is merely (if it ever existed at all) “one of the churches named in the civil suit”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmvCHwiDjDQ
Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:
If they can’t admit they did anything wrong, they can’t learn. Period.
You only have one chance to do the right thing for a particular person, but if you at least LEARN you might do right by the next person. SGM refuses to learn, because they refuse to admit they were wrong.
Lea wrote:
And SGM church culture would tend to maximize the chance of that.
Sort of the Godly(TM) version of “dumb broad”.
Also, this means a wife’s position is entirely dependent on her husband’s position and rank, and that opens up a Pandora’s Box of some pretty dark stuff as said widdle woman tries to maximize her position through her hubby.
Guest wrote:
It’s becoming a Privilege of Pastoral Rank.
Paterfamilias ALWAYS has total sexual privileges over all his household/flock/animate property.
Dave A A wrote:
doubleplusunperson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmvCHwiDjDQ
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Which leads to some of the nastiest behind-the-scenes manipulation.
Imelda Marcos, Elena Ceaucescu, Roxanna of Sultan Sulieman’s harem, dozens of “Corrupter of Empire” empresses in Chinese folk history; She Who Must Be Obeyed (in secret).
Ken A wrote:
Over Two Million gate receipts alone, not counting swag sold at any dealers’ tables.
100% Tax Free — remember, it’s a MINISTRY(TM).
Max wrote:
“WHO IS LIKE UNTO THE BEAST?”
— Revelation 13:4
Max wrote:
Comes as part of the package.
They’re the Predestined Elect, God’s Speshul Pets, the Master Race by Divine Election.
Lea wrote:
Can you imagine the shock wave that would spread across the SGM network of churches if its leaders would wake up tomorrow and say “We were wrong.”! With 70 churches and thousands of members at stake, they are not going to do that at this point. They will opt to continue to dodge the matter by ignoring he said/she said … their ministries (and paychecks) would be on the line if they wavered even the slightest. It’s one thing for leaders to not do the right thing, but I’m amazed at the thousands of followers who still go to churches with such an ugly past! This is not an “accuser of the brethren” thing … these are brethren with real-life abuse stories.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And the real kicker. With non profits/ Foundations, You can pay high fees for speakers, high salaries, travel the world on org business, etc, etc. it’s quite the in thing now.
@ Daisy:
The place is a cesspool. Been reading up on it.
Dave A A wrote:
This is so true.
My wife would like our son to be more involved in church activities. I’ve always been involved in kids activities (volunteer, attend games, get to know the other parents/coaches).
Due to my beliefs or lack thereof, I’m unable to do this with the church. My wife is capable but they have boys group (Christian service brigade) where boys are “discipled by godly men”. It’s a no girls allowed situation. Normally I’m a live & let live person but based on the christianese of the group & what i’ve read here, i’ve said no to him joining. This really confirms I’ve made the best decision. If neither my wife or I can be involved then neither are the kids.
Jack wrote:
Sadly, that may very well be the safest route these days to protect our children. Church leaders don’t seem to have the level of discernment they need to vet youth workers/pastors and predators are too easily sneaking in the backdoor at many churches. I suppose TWW readers have become more sensitized than an average church member to these problems, but caution is warranted.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Totally agree with this!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well then T4G has got to get its act together.
2017 Catalyst Atlanta charged ~$300/person (ed.) and drew about 15k in attendance. And attendees still had to pay for room and board (hotels and food trucks).
T4G is leaving money on the table. $100? that’s chump change. Seriously.
Jack wrote:
I have very little confidence anymore in boys being ‘disciple by godly men’.
Oops, sorry – ~$300/person.
Still…!
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Late 90’s is a little after my time, but I used to be in Gresham on occasion. Church attendance across this region was ultra low. Groups would have been small.
Groups that I was once connected with did not have a good view of the area, because there where small aberrant affiliations, including Portland’s east side. I would not consider this area unhealthy. Any influence his father had would seem to be related to affiliation with outside networks, not from the influence of a local mega church. it would be hard to picture.
Nathan Priddis wrote:
correction: I would consider this area unhealthy.
Max wrote:
Conspiracy theory? We will see.
Calling all Wartburg Watch readers! I would like to request that you all pray for me and my family, we’re going through some rough spots right now.
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Then, they probably also put the blame on him for not properly training his wife to obey because “real men” can make their wives obey.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Max and HUG, you are quite a double act. Max reports that Max thinks a streak of arrogance runs through New Calvinists and HUG comes out with his well worn slogans borrowed from the two great political systems of the 20th century.
It should remembered that no sect is perfect, least of all the Anabaptists, of whom it is recorded in the ‘History of the Reformation, Volume 8, chapter 3’ – “These fanatics fancied themselves alone to be the children of God, and like the Israelites of old believed that they were called to exterminate the wicked.”
The funny thing is, though, then, like now, it was the Reformers’ fault, because in ‘The Radical Reformation, chapter 10.3.c’ it is written that one of the Anabaptists, Melchior Hoffman, “was cruelly rejected by Luther who disparaged the pretensions of an untrained layman to ‘prophesy and interpret Scripturek. Luther, reflecting on the encounter in a letter to Nicholas Amsdorf in Magdeburg, 17 May 1527, wrote (as magisterial reformer with a university degree and the backing of the chief magistrate):’This man unbidden and without a call, goes about dealing with mRvellous things beyond himself.’
And that is the problem here – not Calvinism or even new Calvinism, but men taking it upon themselves to appoint themselves leaders of a church of their own making for their own ends and not for the glory of God or in line with the Great Commission.
Sam wrote:
Praying for you and your family, Sam.
@ Lowlandseer:
And Lowlandseer, you show every sign of being an apologist for the Neo-Cals and all the baggage that goes with them. Whistleblower watchblogs like this tend to attract Defenders of the Abusive Faith, whether actual Truth Squads or just True Believers reacting to Blasphemy.
P.S. Not “great political systems” of the 20th Century.
“Most Destructive Political CULTS”.
Lydia wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeET7Z1ZGlw
We’re all in the wrong Racket.
To paraphrase Elron, “If you want to get rich, start your own Minstry”.
Max wrote:
How can Those Who Can Do No Wrong admit to anything?
@ Mercy:
Thanks. I think I’ve been deceived recently, but I’m not sure. Please pray for wisdom and discernment.
Sam wrote:
Definitely praying.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
What I get most here is the flags to watch for whatever your belief system. What I see in common are closed authoritarian communities. Xenophobic, more often than not guided by a manifest destiny be it god or dialectic. Usually under the watchful eye of chosen ones be they mullahs, priests, pastors or dictators.
Jerome wrote:
It was called “Gathering of Believers “ than, but the short answer is yes, most definitely. It was descended from a “Teaching Ministry “ called TAG that met ai Christ Church on Mass. ave in DC . It was much into the shepherding movement. Hope this helps.
J. M.
FW Rez wrote:
How can our thoughts about New Calvinism be called conspiracy theories when they give us so much evidence?!
Jack wrote:
In the words of Rudyard Kipling:
Whether the State can loose and bind
In Heaven as well as on Earth:
If it be wiser to kill mankind
Before or after the birth—
These are matters of high concern
Where State-kept schoolmen are;
But Holy State (we have lived to learn)
Endeth in Holy War.
Whether The People be led by The Lord,
Or lured by the loudest throat:
If it be quicker to die by the sword
Or cheaper to die by vote—
These are things we have dealt with once,
(And they will not rise from their grave)
For Holy People, however it runs,
Endeth in wholly Slave.
Whatsoever, for any cause,
Seeketh to take or give,
Power above or beyond the Laws,
Suffer it not to live!
Holy State or Holy King—
Or Holy People’s Will—
Have no truck with the senseless thing.
Order the guns and kill!
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/MacDonough%27s_Song
Lowlandseer wrote:
Oh yeah. It’s the old straight man/punchline routine … the good cop/bad copy method of bringing home a point. Pleased to hear that our tag-team has entertained you. Hmmmm … maybe Max and HUG are the same person? Nah, HUG likes to rib Max every once in a while; Max wouldn’t do that to himself.
Lowlandseer, I think both HUG and Max would agree with your assessment that the overriding problem in much of the organized church is not theological flavor, but “men taking it upon themselves to appoint themselves leaders of a church of their own making for their own ends and not for the glory of God or in line with the Great Commission.”
https://imgur.com/a/jgOas
New Logo Just released by SGC!
@ Kari:
Thank you for the prayers. I think they are working, slowly but surely.
Really, that “Response to Allegations” is diabolical, IMO. I wish I had time to go through it line-by-line.
Look at the very beginning: “by Sovereign Grace Staff”
And the end: “The Sovereign Grace Churches Leadership Team”
None of them can even be bothered to put their names to it.
And then there’s the beginning of the end, just before the “flawed but forgiven sinners” paragraph: “Still, we have undertaken the effort in good faith, and we anticipate that this response will be our last public comment on the details of these allegations.”
They can’t be bothered to say anything more! They’ve already been greatly put upon!
And then, somewhere near the end of the beginning:
“Many have the impression that abuse was widespread throughout Sovereign Grace churches. This is not true. The lawsuit brought against Sovereign Grace in 2012 included accusations of abuse in two churches that had occurred many years earlier. No other Sovereign Grace churches were named in the lawsuit. While a single incident of abuse is grievous, it is simply false to characterize this as widespread within Sovereign Grace churches, whose experience with this horrible sin is, sadly, not unusual in our culture. We have been grieved to see pastors and church members tainted by this false impression.”
Who are these “Many”? They can’t be bothered to quote Rachael or Brent or glamorous blog queens. They state a generalized “impression” which is subjective and relative. What exactly would constitute “widespread”? Well, this “impression” is not only untrue and doubly false, we are grieved to see pastors and pewsitters “tainted” by it.
By mentioning “a single incident of abuse” they mean to put in the reader’s minds that a single incident is all there was. They support this later by only providing details on a single perp (who just might have perpetrated more than just a single incident, but who’s counting?). Oh, and it’s “our culture” which causes experiences with this horrible sin, anyway, isn’t it?
@ Max:
Max, you and HUG are very different people. You are traditional SBC and HUG is a Cold Warrior. We have one thing in common, I think, and that is we don’t take ourselves too seriously. Long may we continue to prod each other!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG, I do it for a laugh. You Max and me are about the same age, have lived through the same times, admittedly in different places, but I think we have a lot in common.
Lowlandseer wrote:
Well said. And from Mike Phillips with Julia Dahl M.D.:
“Within the clergy… there appears to be much higher levels of the most destructive expressions of narcissism than in the general population. The problem is real, and it seems that ministry attracts narcissists for the same reasons that elementary schools and playgrounds attract pedophiles: these institutions provide access to victims.” https://mikeinsac.com/2018/02/12/the-grooming-behavior-of-pastoral-predators-part-1/
@ Lowlandseer:
I’m so old and traditional that I remember church during a better day … when the mission was the Great Commission, when it was more about Jesus than self. I don’t recognize most of the church today, and it’s not just a different cultural expression of doing church that bothers me. I’ve never had a problem with form, as long as there is some substance to it. In far too many places, we are doing church without God. New Calvinism is but one concern I have in this regard. We need a genuine revival to right the ship, but I don’t see much movement in that direction.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Sorry HUG, if you read my occasional posts you’ll see that I’m not defending any one position. As for “the great political systems” quote, I don’t go along with the idea of “cults” whether they be of personality or anything else. It’s much deeper than that, namely, the actions of a fallen humanity.
Max wrote:
Amen to that! If we continue to speak up and speak out, who knows what WE can achieve?
Max wrote:
They have probably already counted the cost and decided it’s not worth it. This link describes how leaders of a large cult actually said, “We were wrong.” – https://www.gci.org/aboutus/history. It was a very costly move for them. I bring this up as an example of what it could look like for SGM (and the rest of the gospel glitterati) to publicly repent. I don’t believe they will do what GCI did because of their fear of how much they would lose. It’s possible that they could change, but not likely.
Lowlandseer wrote:
New Calvinism is a direct result of men who want to make a theology to control others. Theology can be and often is created to manipulate others.
And, this is all so easy for you to say, isn’t it? That the theology isn’t a problem? You are clearly male. Of course, you think the theology isn’t a problem, because New Calvinists tell you that as long as men like you show up, you can be privileged like them.
They invented an entire theology to make women a lower class. Bruce Ware says I’m not even made in the image of God. Of course, me talking to you about proper theology is a direct usurpation of God’s will. ESS is a theology and it’s heretical. And it’s still taught at STBS even though Mohler doesn’t claim to believe it.
So I don’t buy your “It’s not the theology” at all. Of course the theology is a problem. It’s a huge problem and those men will be standing on the wrong side on judgment day, totally convinced they were the only ones going to heaven.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Another example of admitting that a ministry was wrong is Bill Hybels. Guru of the Willow Creek model for doing church (seeker-friendly), Hybels about 10 years ago reflected back on three decades of ministry and said “We made a mistake.” He admitted that in the pursuit of getting a crowd to come to church by whatever it took, they failed to make disciples. Willow Creek members were essentially Biblically illiterate because they didn’t put an emphasis on spiritual growth through prayer and study of Scripture. Everything was being done to get numbers in the door, rather than equipping the Body of Christ to go into the world. Did Hybels pay a price for that admission? When was the last time you heard his name before I brought it up here?
ishy wrote:
It’s very hard to criticize a corrupt system when you’re personally benefiting from it.
“I Got Mine,
I Got Mine,
I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
NOW THAT I GOT MINE!”
–Gleen Frye
LancasterCaster wrote:
Sweeping things under the rug???
Max wrote:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/october/willow-creek-bill-hybels-names-co-ed-pastors-to-succeed.html
Charis wrote:
Figure $270, anybody who’s anybody probably got the “early bird” $30 discount. So act now to lock in your special discount for next year …. But Wait!!! there’s more …
Dave A A wrote:
Your series of posts reminds me of the old photo of Stalin with three other men. It went through three successive edits as the others were purged till only Stalin remained. Eventually Stalin died and then his image was pulled down too, all the while the miserable regime continued to grind on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soviet_censorship_with_Stalin2.jpg
Lowlandseer wrote:
This sounds suspiciously like an attempt to level the playing field. Are you willing to share with us your real purpose here and perhaps also which church denomination you think gets things more right than most?
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
That article comes across as a major exercise in whitewash. Armstrong was a sexual predator who started his own cult.
ishy wrote:
Male privilege. It’s been the tradition, and one not of God. I’ll say it agsin, churches are not of God. This backing and forthing, trying to be the one who is right, looks quite silly when you stand back and watch it. In the end it is about male privilege, control, and money, lots of money, money, money……what are those dreaded words. Oh yes, “Depart from me, I never knew you.”
Max wrote:
The Hybels, Warrens, Emergents used to be the new kids on the block. Easy believism, big numbers, book deals etc. The pendulum has swung to the other extreme. The New Cals have taken over with their return to piety and the law.
Forrest wrote:
A rather odd assumption and questioning of motives which give an insight into your own so your questions will remain unanswered but keep reading.
Forrest wrote:
Are you one of those people who cannot ever see good in things like this? I only mentioned GCI as an example of a cult that completely changed course. I did not read that article as an attempt to whitewash, but read it as the story of their conversion to mainstream. In terms of how they view sexual abuse of children, it looks to me like they are doing something well (I found this after a very short search):
I get it that churches should be perfect in all ways. On the other hand, I don’t know where one could find such a place. When we find an example of an abusive cult repenting and becoming mainstream we should encourage the progress rather than throwing them under the bus for old associations/practices from which they have repented. I have never set foot in a GCI church, but from what I’ve read, they look much safer than SGM/SGC.
Lowlandseer wrote:
More a reflection of how you are coming across. You have an opportunity to clarify.
@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
A deeper level if research can be helpful here.
I don’t understand the point you are making. It sounds like you are denying the possibility of real cultural change. Do you have evidence that the stated change in this case is false?
Back to the point I was trying to make, it would be very costly for SGM/SCC to repent, which makes it unlikely. However, if they did repent, what evidence would make it good enough? Or would no amount of repentence be sufficient?
@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
My last comment was for @Forrest – I forgot to hit the reply button.
Mercy wrote:
This is why I think the emphasis on Calvinism misses the boat. They’re not the only people who want control over women in particular. They’re just the current popular flavor.
@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Although GCI addressed beliefs they now consider heretical, these were only a part of the problem with Armstrongism. They failed to address what some may consider to be the more serious issues associated with the cult. They continue to regard this charlatan as a christian who can be looked up to. It would be like SGC/SGM moving away from patriarchy but failing to deal with Mahaney.
Mercy wrote:
Yep, the mantle of aberrant faith has been passed to another … who also have easy believism, big numbers, book deals, etc. Emergent has been replaced by Resurgent, just another mile-wide lake which is only one-inch deep. When the pendulum swung this time, it traveled back 500 years to bring back Calvin with it. If only the church would go back 2,000 years and pursue Jesus again; a return to the ancient paths would do it some good.
Mercy wrote:
The persecuted Church of the Living God throughout the world stands in utter amazement as it gazes at the American ‘church’.
@ Forrest:
There continues to be serious concerns about CGI’s strict hierarchical structure.
Max wrote:
Yes. But i am concerned about “the ancient paths.” Some of those lead to New Age teachings which have infiltrated Christendom.
Max wrote:
Hybels is still admired and making waves with LARGE volume impact. He was a keynote speaker at Catalyst Atlanta 2017. And it is his model that Andy Stanley reveres and follows.
So, no, I don’t think he “paid the price” for that. If anything, he turned his church model into a “business” leadership model.
And…his own conference is widely known and followed: The Global Leadership Summit.
Thersites wrote:
You got that right! The promotionals are ridiculous.
@ Thersites:
Statures. They never existed.
@ Lowlandseer:
Usually Reformed folks trot out Munster. So thanks for that. Except a tiny minority, Anabaptists were usually running from either Catholics or Protestants to escape punishment and death. Very few of their writings remain. They had no political power but the Reformers did. And they were not monolithic at all. Some were standing against forced infant baptism. Some were standing against state church, and so on. For the majority of Ana Baptist it wasn’t about being perfect but staying alive after voicing disagreement with the state Reformers.. Big difference.
But why was it Luther could decide who was “called” and who was allowed to interpret scripture? Same arrogance he accused Hoffman of! But since it’s the great Luther, few question his position. They should.
@ ishy:
My view is a bit more complicated but I don’t think we can discuss Christian theological history/tradition without adding in the political. The 95 Theses were theological and political. Political structures were intertwined in Christian history, it’s impossible to ignore. Political Caste systems were built into the “theology”.
@ Max:
And swung back. Many realize they need the tactics of the growth machine seekers to stay alive, grow and attract more followers. Driscoll adopted it early on with the mantle of Calvinism and men on top. But he doesn’t exist anymore, Comrade.
More and more are adopting seeker tactics. J.D. Greear adopted them, too, to grow a mega. . Many are now downplaying Calvin for social justice issues. But not for members—no justice for members who question. They still must go along with leaders. (Wink)
This cracks me up. Do you know how many YRR told me over the years they were raised in SBC “seeker” churches who taught easy believism and that is a big reason they went Calvinist? Because it’s the true gospel! But now they adopt seeker tactics to get people in! If you live long enough you see things go full circle with the pendulums.
My view? People put way too much stock in “church” and “mere men” when it comes to salvation.
Lydia wrote:
Bingo!
@ Mercy:
@Max @Lydia
So, like in business, to keep going, growing and profiting, one re-invents or re-packages “church”? Latest and greatest?
As you mentioned above, Max, where is the Jesus of the Bible in all this? Where is the guidance/power/ministry of the Holy Spirit?
JYJames wrote:
Yes, the Holy Spirit is missing. I’ve been saying that for a long time now. Thank you for bringing that to our attention!
Mercy wrote:
Both ancient and modern paths have those risks. The difficulty is that if we want to believe anything about Christianity, we have to follow at least one ancient path since Christianity is an ancient religion. There has to be at least one path that is solid, otherwise there is nothing of any value in Christianity. But it’s not so easy to sort out which ancient paths are better than others, especially when you dig into the historical writings.
Forrest wrote:
It’s a good point. I view them as a work in progress – not all the way there yet, but MUCH better than where they came from. Most mainline denominations have hierarchical structures with some bad actors, so in that sense I don’t find them very remarkable. My involvement with GCI is more indirect than perhaps yours. When I was trying to get my head around the damage being wreaked by New-Calvinism I kept running across their site. I eventually listened to all of their “You’re Included” interviews with Trinitarian theologians (including women, gasp). The interviews include quite an eclectic mix. Working through those interviews was very helpful for my recovery after investigating Calvinism. Maybe those interviews positively impacted me in a way that left me thinking too favorably about GCI.
JYJames wrote:
Church is a sort of business. They have mortgages, electricity, employees, parking lots to fix, etc, etc. it costs big to keep that up. While I don’t see buildings or paid Jesus employees as sinful, I do question the tactics it takes to maintain and grow it all. Without the tactics would it flourish? Should it? I am old enough to remember when the saints ran the church by heated business meetings then voting. People accepted and went to work. I think they were more independent grown ups back then. Not sheep being led around by another sheep with a title.
My experience with Megas really jaded me to it all. It caused me to look deeper at it in all churches. At the same time, I appreciate that old Cathedrals are kept up as they are historical sites. Same with old country churches. They tell us about history. Will the modern mega become the same?
I have a cognitive dissonant conundrum! Help!
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
I don’t find a risk in following Jesus.
@ Max:
Considering my experience with the Hybels world back in the day, I have a hard time giving him a pass. He made his millions and then has regrets? At no time while those “leadership” guys were plotting “Good to Great” things for Christendom did they stop to question their motives or tactics. They literally turned humans into numbers/giving units for Christ. We can also thank that crew (Buford, Warren, Hybels, Branford, etc) for “Servant-Leader”, vision casting, etc. a lot of real silliness. And frankly, the Neo Cal movement was effectively promoted as the anecdote to their tactics. Now the Neo Cals have adopted them! Live long enough you see it go full circle.
I constantly and carefully approach the idea of “movements” or identity groups with my teens and losing a personal identity to be in a group. It’s such time wasted when we could be developing ourselves and enjoying all kinds!
Mercy wrote:
Neither do I. The big risks are encountered when we follow somebody else and their take on religion.
Mercy wrote:
Which Jesus? If you follow the Jesus of the New Testament you are relying on an ancient path. There are a number of ancient and modern paths that teach different versions of Jesus. Choosing the right Jesus is the hard part. Right now I am thinking that about the best we can do is follow the decisions of the seven ecumenical councils. But that has its own set of disadvantages. If one chooses a different standard, how does one judge the validity of it? I’m not trying to be difficult – this is a very complicated topic once one takes into account church history. I wish it were simpler.
@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Your comment made me think of NT Wright saying that each generation needs to revisit the historical Jesus. (As He has been reinvented many times) Would that be an ancient path? I do wonder. What if the Lutheran Church in Germany of the 30’s had been revisiting the historical Jesus? You could ask this if any generation/geographic area throughout history. This led me to think of Verduin”s book, Anatomy of a Hybrid. He draws a line from Creation to JTB to Christ with finally the concept of Freedom of Speech. (The book is about church state history)
And he was a Dutch Reformed Scholar!
I am thinking from a birds eye view but fear we tend to view the path through the lens of Western Christianity.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
But it is simple. Only theologians complicate it.
Lydia wrote:
This is an excellent point. Perhaps the core demographic of the modern megas represents numbers but shallow in maturity.
Back in the day, I also recall a lot more volunteerism and fewer hired professionals at the local level of church. Folks pitched in. Less emphasis (if any) on tithing.
@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
I know the challenges with this but I finally settled on Jesus Christ as a manifestation of Yahweh in the Flesh. My study on ESS convinced me that all Three often did the same things. Not to mention Yahweh is “father” of Israel in the OT. Not Father of a Trinity. It’s shocking when you study it. Cheryl Schatz did a yeomans work on it. Then there is Isaiah 9 which just boggles all the old stereotypes.
Of course the Neo Cals call me a Pelagian, Arian, Oneness, etc, etc. But it’s actually glorious. Jesus is God. He CAME here! Blows my mind.
Mercy wrote:
Well, you are right on, IMHO, and so is Max on TWW, who also consistently mentions the missing ministry of the Holy Spirit. I became aware of this myself through TWW comments – from Max, you, and so on. Now, my friends and I talk about this, as in, “Are you listening to the Holy Spirit?”
There is a pastor I ran into online through Dee’s tweets. Looked on his website, and he says when a congregant has a question, he, the pastor, then asks, “Well, what is the Holy Spirit telling you?”
I’d never before heard of a pastor asking such a question, acknowledging that the Holy Spirit speaks to and guides everyone individually – and then encouraging this.
Lydia wrote:
I think I agree with you. I personally believe that the seven ecumenical councils basically got it right. And if they didn’t, then I don’t know what to say because that pretty much leaves us with everyone choosing their own view of God. It seems pretty easy to just follow Jesus, but don’t we have to know what/who we are following? Is Jesus just one mode of a unitary God? Or is Jesus the first created being from God but not equal to God? Was Jesus just a spirit that had no material body? Or was he born just a man but became the son God sometime after he was born? Did he have both a human nature and a divine nature, or only one nature? These and other issues about Jesus were dealt with at the ecumenical councils. While it sounds like unnecessary complication, the answers to these questions have very practical implications. I always enjoy reading your thoughts on how you wrestle with this. It helps me to think through it.
Lydia wrote:
You got off easy. I’m considered an unregenerate heretic of reprobate mind who will never be ‘saved’.
Muff Potter wrote:
Depending on the source, that is quite a compliment! I am both in awe and jealous!
Jerome wrote:
Talking with a few people it was probably Tom Short with Great Commission that was this repeated speaker.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Short
According to one person I know Covenant Life/Gathering might have occasionally preached on campus but not the repeated 3 years described in your quote.
Great Commission was a college campus ministry similar to Maranatha Ministries in many ways though Great Commision wasn’t charismatic like Maranatha was. It does appear that according to this article some of the leadership of Great Commission did eventually see the error of their actions and admit them. Maranatha and other movements never really made any type of confession from what I have heard and read.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commission_church_movement
What I really found appalling in Sovereign Grace Church’s statement was this
Do you really think Sovereign Grace Leaders think they will have to give an account to God for their actions? Their actions over the years and especially those shown in Brent’s documents strongly IMO contradict that they really think they will have to give an account.
Do you think C.J. Mahaney remembered he would have to give an account when he blackmailed Larry Tomczak?
Do think other Sovereign Grace leaders who declared C.J. fit for ministry really were thinking about this at that time?
What about the leadership’s team response to the documents and declaring them “slander” vs. pursuing confession reconciliation and change?
One other item. Brent has a new post up. This time it is about the Philadelphia Sovereign Grace Church covering up sexual abuse.
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/sarah-kacala-speaks-out-against-covenant-fellowship-church-f.html
Steve240 wrote:
If they believed it there are are better references than their favorite and often used for their own affirmation, Hebrews 13:17.
Lydia wrote:
That was pretty crazy stuff though. Wow.
But there were a lot of awful things in history, Catholics and protestants have both their fair share of bloodshed.
Lydia wrote:
I’m surprised that the Leadership Network (Bob Buford et al.) has escaped attention in the blogosphere. They essentially spawned the Emergent movement (according to Driscoll) and have had a hand in the New Calvinist movement by nurturing a leadership network of YRR who’s who.
@ Charis:
Thanks for the update on Hybels. I’ve been so focused on the New Calvinist mess of late that I haven’t been keeping track of the seeker-friendly gurus. There are just too many church gimmicks out there to keep up with!
JYJames wrote:
Jesus has been kicked out of the pulpit and the Holy Spirit relegated to the back pew.
@ Steve240:
I read that post and am angered at what happened.
Lydia wrote:
In regard to New Calvinism, I hope to outlive it. As an old hunter, I know what happens to a rabbit when it circles back to where you jumped it.
Max wrote:
Seems to me they both got chucked out of the building.
@ Max:
Lol. Trying to picture that. How can it escape the ones recruited early for the Neo Cal movement that their leaders have moved on and are promoting a different shitck to recruit a new crop?
Steve240 wrote:
I’m praying fervently that they will have to give an account for their actions. They have caused so much pain in the lives of their followers for decades.
Thank you everybody who prayed for me. I will be praying for everybody here.
Thersites wrote:
Someday they may pull down the Mahaney image as well.
There was a pastor who founded Solid Rock church in Maryland. After many years he got acquainted with the SGM apostles (it may still have been PDI) and joined his church up with them. The apostles declared him ungifted to minister and offered him the church janitor position, which he accepted for awhile. Now it’s impossible to find any reference to him and it’s as if he never existed. Sadly, even I have forgotten his name.
Lydia wrote:
Yep– “Obey your leaders” is the ONLY verse they could think of for their response. But they don’t want followers to “consider” too much the “outcome of their faith”. Nor should followers consider too much just HOW they BECAME leaders. In the case of Mickey Connolly, who I’d wager is the individual author of the response, we know how he became a leader. He was discipled by the forgotten leader I referenced above. Then, with Brent’s help, he usurped him.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/11/18/sgm-and-confusion-in-the-camp/#comment-31114
@ Dave A A:
Your story about
– a founding pastor who
– collaborated with wolves
– was declared unfit to lead by those wolves
– stepped away from his founding position
– then disappeared, forever…
… demonstrates that who one collaborates with counts… they can take you down, one way or another.
The leaders that enabled Savage have also, in another fashion, brought him down by enabling his criminal behavior.
@ Dave A A:
This is so typical in that world!
@ Max:
They came of consolidated power before social media took off. I am convinced that the same timing saved Mohler.
@ Lea:
One can only stomp on people for so long and demand they always turn the other cheek. There are better ways like running as most anabaptists did. Many were drowned.
I heard a scholar who researched ‘meek’ as in inherit the earth. He found it referred to “those with sheaved swords”. Interesting
Dave A A wrote:
One other thing that I have always said about Sovereign Grace Leaders and their use of Hebrews 13:17 is that they were always quick to want to tell members that they needed to submit to their “authority” and were big on emphasizing that but actions never showed they really believed they would have to give an account to God one day. In other words they only practiced the first part of the verse.
Brent’s post of what happened at Covenant Fellowship Church is another sad example (if what is alleged is anywhere near the truth) that these really aren’t contemplating that they will one day have to give an account for their actions.
I am sure the “technology” God has to use to when each of these leaders have to give an account far surpasses what we have here on earth or can even imagine.
Steve240 wrote:
Some leaders teach that they’ll give an account for how well some of their followers (those who’ve officially signed on the dotted line) follow. This gives them another reason to “discipline” wayward followers.
Spiritual abuse is just as rampant in churches as is sexual abuse
https://theauthorofmyfaith.org/2016/10/28/in-robertas-own-words-the-story-behind-the-story-of-jim-cymbala-and-roberta-langella-part-2/
@ Max:
Those are not all the relations. Roger Dillon, married to Carolyn Mahaney’s sister, was principal of the school for many years. The school where abuse occurred and where pedo griney’s wife was a teacher. Then there is Chriss Glass and his wife Linda, who is sister to Grant Layman’s wife, Karin (pronounced Corrine). The Morales abuse was going on during the years of Glass being youth group leader. The Pyle family in the church is also related and there are several other relations.
One of the many signs of it being a cult is how many families are in leadership together. The excuses of CJ lacking knowledge of abuse are bold-faced lies. Josh also lied multiple times as abuse was going on and he knew about it at the time he was there.
It’s so delightful that they want to take on the name of a more Anglican / Episcopal church. More deception as they are the furthest thing from a beautiful, liturgical church who welcomes people who “drift in.” Not at Covenant Life. Beware. They have current members who are sex offenders, and their current pastor lied multiple times about not remembering that his father raped boys repeatedly and killed one of them in a drowning “accident.” If you love your kids, stay away from this church and all of Sovereign Grace.
There was also a boy who killed himself while I was attending the church (Covenant Life). I cannot prove that he was abused by Morales or others, but that’s my belief. One day, perhaps that will come out as well. His parents and family still attend there, last I checked.