Updated 2/11/18:Two Female Students With Protective Orders Against Mr. Royal Leave the School, With Another Victim Still in Attendance. Does Indiana’s Hamilton Southeastern High School Prioritize the Needs of Male Students Over Female Students #metoo

“Remember there’s no such thing as a small act of kindness. Every act creates a ripple with no logical end.”-Scott Adams
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Tears for the victims

Update 2/11/18 Victim #3 has decided NOT to complete a protective order, fearing that she might be encouraged to transfer as well. 

On January 31,2017, we posted Female Students at Indiana’s Hamilton Southeastern High School Speak Out Against Sex Abuse and Are Now the Youngest Members of the #metoo Movement

This story, at the time, had three components.

  1. There is a victim of an 18 year old male student who has a Protective Order against him who she claimed molested her. She had to leave Hamilton Southeastern High School due to the lack of support she received from the administration.
  2. The school teachers and administration, many of whom were aware of this situation, then voted to make the perpetrator their Mr Royal-a role model for students and an example of the best the school has to offer.
  3. A number of well spoken female students reached out to Amy Smith and me, seeking to have their concerns heard. They believed that the school had not been responsive to the needs to the student, Victim #1, who was forced to leave the school in order to feel safe. These students reported a culture sexual harassment by male students in the school.They claimed that Mr Royal, as well as other male students associated with sports teams such as football, routinely sent nude pictures to female students. These pictures are/were not wanted. These young women are young and found it difficult to deal with such harassment.

After speaking with these students, I notified Detective Cesar Rodriguez who requested that the students save some of those pictures and give them to the police.

The IndyStar reported on the 3 protective orders.

The IndyStar got this story, Families of alleged rape victims say HSE failed: ‘They were protecting him and not her,‘ only half right for this very reason.

IndyStar does not identify alleged victims of sexual abuse without their permission. IndyStar is not identifying the accused because he has not been arrested or charged with a crime.

Since they have declined to identify the perp in this situation, they cannot expose the greater story which was the school not only protected the male student but the school rewarded him with the title of Mr Royal. It was this story that caused a number of female students to rise up and call a foul on the part of the school administration. These student are the youngest representatives of the #metoo movement and have earned my profound respect. They do not feel safe in the school. Their observations mirror the same conclusions expressed by the victims and their parents.

The IndyStar would do well to thoroughly review this situation. There are some hard and obvious questions to be asked of the school administration.

  • Why does it seem the male student got protected while the female students were/are the ones who are forced to transfer in order to feel safe?
  • Are there teachers in the school actively advocating that students write letters on behalf of Mr. Royal?
  • How much has the school done to look into the reports of the sexual harassment of female students by male students, often members of sports teams, who send unsolicited nude pictures?
  • Do members of sports teams get a pass for sexual harassment since “every school needs a football team?”
  • Are the female students being commended for standing up against sexual harassment? They should be congratulated for being the youngest females in the #metoo movement. These young women are well spoken and get the problem. Has the school reached out for their input or is football their only king?

However, the IndyStar got part of the article right. Could the school be called out for negligence in this matter?

Legal experts say a restraining order does not require a school district to do anything, although several contacted by IndyStar agreed it’s in a school’s best interest to help as much as possible. Some said it could be considered negligence or contempt if a school actively gets in the way of the order.

The school should work with the family to create a plan, said Julie Slavens, attorney for the Indiana School Boards Association. That could include taking the subject of the order out of extracurricular activities to keep them away from the alleged victim and preparing adults in the building to call police if the student makes illegal contact.

Schools have an obligation to keep all students safe, Slavens said, but they also have a responsibility to provide an education to all students.

When it comes to suspensions or expulsions, districts have to follow policies and legal obligations, she said. Hamilton Southeastern’s policy says the school can suspend or expel a student for outside activity only if it is “unlawful” and interferes with “school purpose” or “educational function.”

Slavens said an alleged rape would qualify as “unlawful activity” regardless of whether charges have been filed, but proving it interferes with school may be more difficult.

This comment by Kristen Pulice of the Indiana Council to End Sexual Assault is spot on. She describes the trauma that a victim may experience. This statement is mirrors what I was told by the parents of the victims.

It’s important for school officials to be sensitive to the trauma these girls could be experiencing, said Kristen Pulice, chief operating officer for the Indiana Coalition to End Sexual Assault.

For a victim of sexual assault, Pulice said being in the same building as the abuser can cause anxiety, depression, hyper-vigilance, isolation and flashbacks.

“Having to be around, or in the vicinity of, the perpetrator is not good,” she said. “It might not be just the perpetrator that she’s dealing with or having to avoid, but the people that he’s associated with. That creates a hostile environment for her.”

Concentrated peer pressure is one reason it often takes high school-aged girls longer to report an assault, Pulice said. They may question whether their peers, friends and even parents would believe them.

There are now 3 female students with protective orders against the same male student. Are we dealing with a predator?

The protective orders all name the same 18 year old male student who was recently *crowned*  Mr. Royal. All three families reached out to me to tell me their stories.

This information changes things. This goes way beyond *buyers’ remorse* and seems to indicate the possibility of predatory behavior on the part of that one student. In fact, early onset of sexual predatory behavior is not uncommon. The US Department of Justice published Juveniles Who Commit Sex Offenses Against Minors: 

  • Juveniles account for more than one- third (35.6 percent) of those known to police to have committed sex offenses against minors.
  • Juveniles who commit sex offenses against other children are more likely than adult sex offenders to offend in groups and at schools and to have more male victims and younger victims.
  • Offenses against teenagers surge during mid to late adolescence, while offenses against victims under age 12 decline.
  • Juvenile sex offenders comprise more than one-quarter (25.8 percent) of all sex offenders and more than one-third (35.6 percent) of sex offenders against juvenile victims
  • As a proportion of the total, 38 percent are between ages 12 and 14, and 46 percent are between ages 15 and 17. The vast ma­ jority (93 percent) are male.
  • Concern about juvenile sex offenders is a relatively recent phenomenon. Some communities have mobilized quite ener­ getically in recent years to identify and intervene with such youth, conducting extensive training among law enforce­ ment, child protection staff, and educators and establishing specialized treatment programs. In other communities, however, concern about the problem has been slow to develop.
  • Thus, any effort to prevent or intervene in sexual assault and child molestation must address the risk that juvenile sex offenders pose.
  • Prevention and deterrence messages should be directed to youthful audiences in schools, youth organiza­ tions, on the Internet, on youth-oriented media, and even in families.
  • Fortunately, several intervention strate­gies have proven effective in reducing recidivism among teenage sex offenders, and communities should acquaint them­ selves with these approaches.

Yes, young male (and female) teens can become sexual predators. There is good news, however. If, and this is important, the authorities are well trained and there are smart local counseling venues, early intervention can help reduce recidivism.

The three moms of the high school victims speak out

I had the chance to dialogue with the moms of these young women who have been granted Protective Orders. They reached out to one another this past weekend for emotional support as they navigate the disappointing response of the school system.

In order to protect the identities of the victims, we will use pseudonyms. I shall use the name Mr. Royal for the male student.

These are the stories of the parents. However, to the inevitable lawyers who are reading this, every word in this entire post should be preceded with the word *Alleged.* However, I believe the narrative of the female students.

Victim #1 story: Had just turned 15 at the time of the assault

This student was barely 15 years old when she was assaulted in September 2017. Mr. Royal was 18 at the time. Her parents found out about the assault on 10/5/17 since Victim 1 was embarrassed and scared by the incident. At 7:30AM, that same day, they reported this to the school and met with the the guidance counselor. They requested that her schedule be coordinated in order to prevent her from bumping into Mr Royal. The school told them that their request for a coordinated schedule could not be granted. Instead, they were referred to school based therapy, something that the parents had not requested.

Also, there is a Fisher based police office within the school grounds. They were told that they could not report the assault in that venue. So, they went to the Fisher Police Department which referred them to the Noblesville Police department when they explained where the assault occurred. A criminal case was then opened and a referral was made to the Department of Child Services. Apparently the school did not report this incident to DCS.

After Victim 1 went through the forensic interview with the detective on October 11, the family filed for a Protective Order for their daughter which was granted. After a hearing on October 23, a Permanent Protective Order (PPO) was granted. That PPO did not include church or school since Mr Royal has a right to education and worship.

On October 23, the PPO was presented to the school. The parents were told by a Dean, Holly Reine, that the only way to keep their daughter safe was to transfer her out of the school. Reine was told that Victim 1 was receiving bullying texts from other students which were turned over to school. The family was told the students would be giving a “warning” which was seemingly mild given the school’s supposedly strict anti- bullying policy which claims to have *zero tolerance.”

Victim 1 began suffering from PTSD and the parents saw no other solution than to immediately transfer her out of the school on 10/23. The parents expressed that the administration in the new school has been very helpful and supportive of their daughter. Even so, she occasionally hears from other students who claim she is lying or question her motives. She was even told by one student that Mr. Royal’s parents paid her off which is not true.

This information was handed over to the detective who has sent this on to the prosecutor. They were told that it was unlikely that charges would be filed due to a *lack of physical evidence.* If this was said, then something is wrong. Physical evidence is NOT necessary for a rape to be investigate and prosecuted.

It is important to understand that Mr. Royal was 18 at the time of this contact. They have since been notified that the charges have been resubmitted but that is all they know..

Victim #2 Story: 17 at the time of the assault

The details of this assault will not be repeated here. However, suffice to say that it tracks with the reports of the other two victims. This victim began receiving nude pictures from Mr Royal in her freshman year at the school. She deleted all of them but said there were at least 20 and that she didn’t ask for them. A Protective Order was granted on 2/1/18 after an assault was reported by the student.

Taking matters into her own hands, this brave student notified the police on campus on 1/29/17 and emailed Mr Kegley on 1/31/18 to report the assault. She told him that she didn’t feel safe seeing Mr Royal in the hallways but that she didn’t have any classes with him. She admitted to having panic attacks when she saw him. The principal said he was sorry that she was having panic attacks and that she needed to see the guidance counselor. The police notified the parents that she had also reported the assault to them.

Her mom accompanied her to the counselor’s office. The counselor wanted her to be careful about talking about the sexual assault with her peers and offered advice on how to cope with seeing Mr Royal around the school. I guess they wouldn’t want to embarrass the outstanding Mr. Royal, would they?

This mom made an important point. She claimed that the school never directly reached out to the family, waiting, instead, for them to call the school. She said the following:

It shows how the victims are not their first priority even though they say that the safety of their students is their first priority in every blanket statement they make to the press.

I certainly think she has a point since all three parents expressed similar concerns. It appears that the school picks and chooses which students deserve to be protected in a He said/She said situation. It also appears to me that the male student wins out each in this instance.

The mom reports that there has yet to be harassment from the other students but she is not sure how many students know about it at this time. One female dean reached out to the student to say she felt bad for what the student was going through.

This past week, she was disturbed when Mr Royal, being the fine, upstanding role model that he is, waved at her. She went immediately to the office and met up with her parents.

Update 2/7/18 I received a text from the mom late this afternoon. Her daughter has elected to transfer to another school because of the panic attacks she gets when seeing Mr Royal walking around the school. She graduates in May but does not feel safe at her current school. This report breaks my heart.

Victim #3 Story: 14 years old at the time of the assault

This student began a friendship with Mr. Royal in December 2016. Her mom had met his parents and believed that the friendship was innocent. She would later learning that Mr Royal kissed her daughter a few times in a visit to his home in mid December. On December 19, Victim 3 sneaked out of her room during the night to “go look at Christmas lights” with Mr. Royal

When the parents discovered this on12/20, they had a conversation with her. At that time, the daughter said that Mr Royal forced her to perform oral sex on him. She was 14 when this occurred. She was upset and didn’t want to but he was rather forceful, becoming very mad. He pushed her head down and proceeded with an act that caused her to gag which made him more angry. Victim 3 begged her parents not to say anything because she was afraid of retaliation which she had heard happened with others who tried to deal with such encounters with him.

At this time, she had a number of nude texts from him along with texts in which he urged her to sneak out of her house. Unfortunately, the mom deleted those texts, thinking this was all over. It wasn’t. In August 2017, he allegedly told her that she was now the *one for him.* Mom asked her not to respond to him but later discovered a picture of her sitting with him at a football game. On September 12, she discovered that he convinced her to sneak out and talk to him because he “had changed.”

Mom took away her daughter’s cell phone and texted Mr Royal to leave her daughter alone. He asked to speak with her so he could tell her how he had changed. She refused. She then called Mr. Royal’s mother and asked her to tell her son to leave her daughter alone. His mother told her that she didn’t know what to do with him and didn’t know how to control him. She promised to tell him to leave the daughter alone and asked that she be called if he didn’t obey her wishes.

Victim 3 became concerned when she found out, in November 2017, that two of her friends had been approached by Mr. Royal for sexual encounters. One of those girls was 15. She decided that she needed to get counseling to sort out her feelings. Shortly thereafter, he was crowned *Mr Royal* and she became very upset. Then, she received texts from a student claiming that all those who chose to have sex with Mr Royal were the ones who had the problem.

The mom called the school and asked why he was chosen Mr. Royal. She asked to speak to Mr Kegley but Mr Hoover, the assistant principal called her back. He admonished her for not reporting the incident when it happened. He then asserted that Mr. Royal had won the award “fair and square.”

Digression for editor’s note: Folks, at this point, the school was aware of Victim 1 who had been forced to transfer out of the school. Why did teachers and the administration vote for him, knowing this was true? This needs to be investigated by the local media because it sure seems like alleged sexual assault should be a show stopper for a student to be picked as a role model. He was chosen *fair and square?* This is deeply concerning to me.

Mr Hoover called her back 3O minutes later and stated that he would inform the police of her report of her daughter’s sexual encounter with the school role model (sorry-sarcasm intended) Mr Royal and then read her the canned statement “At HSE we take these matters very seriously…” (You can read that statement in my initial post. The victim’s mom said to me:

I didn’t feel like the school cared at all.

I have to agree with her assessment. There appears to be an inherent coldness to those who are victims of sexual assault. Could it be that male students are considered more worthy of protection?

Sadly, Mr Royal got a couple of days off from school but returned. The victim was approached by a female student calling her disgusting phase that I will not repeat here.

The victim and the family have decided that she will not be the one to transfer from the school. She has a 4.2 GPA. They believe that he should be the one to transfer. They have now been granted a Protective Order against Mr Royal, the role model of HSE High School. Update 2/11/18: The family has decided not to complete the protective order because the other two students were encouraged to transfer and she wishes to remain at the school.

Update 2/7/17: A guidance counselor called the family today. This is the first time anyone from the school reached out to offer help. The counselor asked permission to alert her daughter’s teachers about the situation. She wanted the teachers to keep an eye out for her daughter in order to ensure that Mr Royal doesn’t attempt to speak with her. The mom gave her permission and said:

This is definitely a step in the right direction.

C’mon, school-this really isn’t that hard…

My prayers for the victims:

Contrary to popular belief, I can say that I believe that there are victims and I can say that I believe the victims. Just like I can say that I still believe that OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony are guilty even though the were declared “not guilty.” I am not the only one who believes that! My belief is not legal proof. But it is my belief, nonetheless.

To the three young women: I am so, so sorry. I believe that you were failed, not only by your abuser, but by a tone deaf school system. Some day, your experience will lead you to reach out and help many more women who will be abused in this fallen world in which we live. I shall pray that you become leaders in the #metoo movement. Find your voice and use it when you are ready. It may take some time but I believe in you. Can I ask you a favor? When you find that voice (and I know you will) will you let me know? I will want to share your story. You have much to offer all of us.

By the way, you have pretty awesome parents who also believe you and have your best interests at heart. Give them a hug once in awhile.

My thoughts on the response for the school.

I would have been inclined to cut the school some slack in attempting to navigate this situation but I will not do so. The outcome of the Mr Royal vote is indicative that there is more at play here than an innocent school trying its very best on behalf of all students.

It was absolutely unnecessary for that male student to receive that award. There were teachers and administrators that voted in that election that knew of Victim 1. She had been given no choice but to transfer to get away from this male student. So why did they elect him?

I have received reports from students have said that there is at least one teacher actively involved in trying to clear Mr Royal’s name by getting students to write letters on his behalf. Is this true? Given the outcome of Mr Royal, I would say that it is not beyond the realm of possibility.

  • Does the school understand that this sort of response sounds quite lame in today’s current climate of scrutiny involving sexual abuse?
  • Do they understand they have a #metoo situation on their hands?
  • Does the school understand  with three Protective Orders they now have much more serious situation on their hands?
  • Is the safety of ALL students their priority or is the safety of male students who play sports their priority?
  • Do female students occupy a lower rung than male students?
  • Is there are *boys will be boys” attitude within the administration?

My encouragement of the female students who are taking a #metoo stand

My generation botched it up. We were the ones who were supposed to change the world. Instead, we left the mess for you, our younger sisters. It’s a world that expects women to go along with sexual harassment in order to keep a job or to avoid being harassed. You will soon leave that school and go into college and the work force. You will be startled to find that things are still the same. The good news is that younger women are waking up and taking a stand. You are well spoken and can see though the baloney.

Stand with your fellow students who are being sexually harassed. Expose these young men for what they are: creepsters. Collect those pictures. Turn the pictures into the police and embarrass those boys If you don’t, they will keep on doing this to women in college and in the workplace.

They may turn out to be another Anthony Weiner which is so disgusting. Do you know this story? He called himself Carlos Danger. This old guy sent pictures of his naked private parts to a teen age girl while his toddler son sat on the bed behind him. He used to be a Congressman!!! This is who creepsters at your school will grow up to be.

When I saw this commercial during the Super Bowl, I thought of all of you. Stand by the victims and stand with one another. You can make a difference. Show us how it is done. Maybe next year, they’ll make a commercial about all of you.


Comments

Updated 2/11/18:Two Female Students With Protective Orders Against Mr. Royal Leave the School, With Another Victim Still in Attendance. Does Indiana’s Hamilton Southeastern High School Prioritize the Needs of Male Students Over Female Students #metoo — 175 Comments

  1. The fact that they have a “Mr. Royal” contest alone tells me there’s a big problem. Why is it only for males? Do women just have some sort of beauty pageant?

    And why couldn’t Mr. Royal’s mom “control” him even a little bit? Couldn’t she at least take away his internet and phone so he’s less likely to send photos to underage girls?

  2. Thank you Dee for shedding light on this grossly mishandled situation at the school!! This story needs to be told, because our “Mr Royal” exists at most high schools. It’s unacceptable how the school has been treating these young ladies and it has to stop NOW!!

  3. @ ishy:
    I’ve thought the same thing! Where are the parents in all of this? Can they not say “no” to him – I guess not. Instead he’s an entitled thinks he’s invincible 18 year old. Disgusting! I also don’t understand why a search warrant hasn’t been issued to look at the contents on his phone and computer either. I can’t even imagine what he has one there.

  4. I would bet on it (if I were a betting person, and I’m not) that there are more victims of Mr. Royal in the high school. There has to be. The victims are just afraid to come forward because of the victim shaming the others have already gone through. To these girls who are the victims, Stand strong my friends. The truth will come out. It has do. God bless you girls for not taking the low road on this. Schools are mandated to report sexual assault, just like any other place. They shouldn’t be afraid to go to school to get their education when their predator is walking the halls.

  5. An article on the Mr. Royal contest (before the event and mentioning no names); it seems
    https://www.hsenews.com/2018/01/23/more-on-mr-royal/

    I suspect “Mr. Royal” is both a star athlete and a star student and the school doesn’t want to ruin his chances of getting into a top college and the glory that reflects back on them (that he is the one risking his chances and that they are definitely hurting the chances of the young women might not occur to them).

  6. “She had to leave Hamilton Southeastern High School due to the lack of support she received from the administration … forced to leave the school in order to feel safe.”

    When will we get these things right in America?! It matters not how popular Mr. Royal is, how important he is to the football team, how “charming” he comes across to teachers and administrators. His transgressions were abuse, pure and simple. HE should be the one who had to leave school, demanded to leave by administrators while these allegations were investigated by the proper authorities. His victims should have been protected by the school system, rather than shunned by them.

    This pattern sounds so familiar to multiple accounts of abuse by church leaders. A recent example, Andy Savage comes to mind. The popular young preacher was protected by “administrators” … his victim shunned by leaders who would not address the matter properly. God help us if Mr. Royal becomes a preacher some day! Sadly, this could happen … strange days in America, strange days in the church.

  7. You ladies and your parents are AMAZING. It takes a lot of strength and courage to stand up to a predator.

    This is just beyond disgusting, although, sadly, not surprising. I am still confused why the school isn’t required to proactively come up with a plan to keep the subject of the Orders away from the victims.

  8. Max wrote:

    protected by “administrators” … his victim shunned by leaders

    Important point, Max. The leaders are completely off, and the liability falls on them. That’s why with Larry Nassar, the leaders are now resigning. They did not do their job.

    Entertainment, sports, government, churches, schools – where are the leaders?

  9. Erp wrote:

    I suspect “Mr. Royal” is both a star athlete and a star student …

    Son of a prominent family in the community?

    Erp wrote:

    … and the school doesn’t want to ruin his chances of getting into a top college

    Consequences.

    Erp wrote:

    and the glory that reflects back on them

    Instead, the reflection that they are experiencing now may cost some school staff their jobs. They are mandated reporters and failed to meet a legal obligation to protect the children entrusted to them.

  10. JYJames wrote:

    The leaders are completely off, and the liability falls on them. That’s why with Larry Nassar, the leaders are now resigning. They did not do their job.

    Accountability always floats up.

    JYJames wrote:

    Entertainment, sports, government, churches, schools – where are the leaders?

    We have a leadership crisis in America.

  11. Max wrote:

    His victims should have been protected by the school system, rather than shunned by them.

    This type of situation is probably where the rubber meets the road, or the bottomline of authenticity, when it comes to leadership, systems, and institutions.

    “Whatever you do to the least of these…”

    What do they say about sales – when you get a dud and you need customer service, how does the company respond? That’s where a loyal customer base is built. Test and evidence.

  12. Erp wrote:

    star athlete … ruin his chances of getting into a top college

    The college sports news is replete with high school star athletes who were recruited by top colleges, and subsequently kicked out due to assault, rape, drugs, robberies, and assorted other crimes. I suspect that many of these bady-boys were protected by high school administrators because they made their school athletic programs look good. We think more highly of sports in America than we ought. I’m an old guy – I played baseball and basketball in my heyday – but we didn’t have these problems in the 1950s-1960s in the schools I attended.

    I truly believe that America is now a mess because the church is a mess. The standard of righteousness has fallen in the streets and our children have become victims of a society which has largely forsaken God. Preachers in far too many pulpits don’t exhort the pew to holiness, because they themselves don’t live holy lives.

  13. Harley wrote:

    I would bet on it (if I were a betting person, and I’m not) that there are more victims of Mr. Royal in the high school. There has to be.

    What is the old saying for every rat you catch you know that are at least a few you didn’t catch. Thus as you say I am sure sadly there are more victims of Mr. Royal.

  14. My head is swirling with thoughts, with red hot anger toward this school, and with such sadness and a desire to protect these girls.

    “Zero tolerance” my butt. That’s all talk. Where is the action? These school administrators have proven to be completely lackng in professionalism in the care of adolescents. They should be terminated immediately. No if’s, and’s, or but’s. They should NEVER be allowed to teach or to hold a position with students again. Even a janitorial job in a school should be out of the question.

    This boy’s parents clearly have not been able to control him according to his mother. And where is his father? Is this more about the school’s image, athletc department, good ol’ boys network? Is it about money? They should be held accountable for raising a psychopath. He will continue to commit these crimes against others unless he is stopped. The fact that he is 18 means that in some instances he should be able to be arrested and tried as an adult. My personal belief would be to call for castration. No mercy.

  15. Just thinking about protective orders in schools…it seems like it would be really difficult to keep people apart from each other entirely when they are going to the same school, especially if they were in the same grade. Some classes are only offered once, for instance.

    Not that I have sympathy for this school/administrators, who went the extra mile in giving him an award.

  16. He was chosen *fair and square?* This is deeply concerning to me.

    Me too. What does that even mean in a contest that as far as I can tell is about teacher popularity? It’s not like he took a test and this was his score.

  17. To the victims of “Mr. Royal Rat,”

    I am sorry for the pain and unjust treatment you are experiencing because of Mr.Royal Rat and the school administration that has supported him and his kind. I hope you all find peace and justice very soon.

  18. Dee,

    If I understand correctly, some of these alleged assaults happened when Mr. Royal Rat was 18 years of age. Is there some reason you are withholding Royal Rat’s name?

  19. Max wrote:

    Erp wrote:
    … and the school doesn’t want to ruin his chances of getting into a top college

    Consequences.

    At 18, I think real consequences are the only thing that might convince him to be a better person. Or at least pretend to be.

  20. Harley wrote:

    I would bet on it (if I were a betting person, and I’m not) that there are more victims of Mr. Royal in the high school. There has to be. The victims are just afraid to come forward because of the victim shaming the others have already gone through.

    Make an Example of One and you Silence a Thousand.

  21. Max wrote:

    The college sports news is replete with high school star athletes who were recruited by top colleges, and subsequently kicked out due to assault, rape, drugs, robberies, and assorted other crimes. I suspect that many of these bady-boys were protected by high school administrators because they made their school athletic programs look good.

    Just one word — FOOTBALL — would explain everything.
    (Speaking as the Omega Male of a Football-worshipping high school. All who did not bend the knee, burn the pinch of incense, and take the Mark of the Pigskin and Gridiron were dealt with.)

    And when The Humble One (chuckle chuckle) got into Role-Playing Games, which did he get into? Satanic D&D or Respectable “NFL Team Owner/Manager: The Role-Playing Game”, AKA Fantasy Football?

  22. Max wrote:

    When will we get these things right in America?! It matters not how popular Mr. Royal is, how important he is to the football team, how “charming” he comes across to teachers and administrators.

    Welcome to the world of High School.

    “OOOOOO! POP-U-LAR!!!!!”
    — Daria’s airhead blonde sister Quinn, Daria

  23. ishy wrote:

    And why couldn’t Mr. Royal’s mom “control” him even a little bit? Couldn’t she at least take away his internet and phone so he’s less likely to send photos to underage girls?

    Absolutely agree! Take away phone, car keys, ground the kid, etc. I’m sure the parents are the ones paying for them…
    My daughter (8th grade) says that boys sending nudes around are so common that it’s “not worth reporting” to the school. I just wish some of these guys could be taught a lesson early on, in hopes of avoiding worse consequences as they grow up!
    A student from our community lost his coveted place in a military academy after being accused of sexual assault (both students impaired from partying); he pleaded guilty to a lesser charge than rape, went to jail for a year and no more military career – what a way to ruin his own and other lives, ugh.

  24. This information changes things. This goes way beyond *buyers’ remorse* and seems to indicate the possibility of predatory behavior on the part of that one student.

    “Once is happenstance.
    Twice is coincidence.
    Three times is Enemy Action.”
    — Ian Fleming

  25. Lea wrote:

    Just thinking about protective orders in schools…it seems like it would be really difficult to keep people apart from each other entirely when they are going to the same school, especially if they were in the same grade. Some classes are only offered once, for instance.

    Not that I have sympathy for this school/administrators, who went the extra mile in giving him an award.

    It seems like the solution is clear. Consequences for this type of behaviour should be exclusion from these classes. If there are permanent consequences then that is fine too. They brought it on themselves. Perps need to sufferconsequences.

  26. They may turn out to be another Anthony Weiner which is so disgusting. Do you know this story? He called himself Carlos Danger. This old guy sent pictures of his naked private parts to a teen age girl while his toddler son sat on the bed behind him. He used to be a Congressman!!! This is who creepsters at your school will grow up to be.

    When Weiner was in the news out here, there was a LOT of drive-time radio snark about the appropriateness of his name and jokes about “Weiner and his wiener”.

    P.S. “Carlos Danger”? Really? Was he trying for his own Reality Show, or just cosplaying a pulp/superhero?

  27. Lea wrote:

    Max wrote:

    Erp wrote:
    … and the school doesn’t want to ruin his chances of getting into a top college

    Consequences.

    At 18, I think real consequences are the only thing that might convince him to be a better person. Or at least pretend to be.

    Yes, I too suspect it would only lead to a surface change at best. He would still be the same person.

  28. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    “Carlos Danger” sounds like one of the screen names from “To Catch A Predator”.

    And I’m sure we’ll see Mr Royal on TV some day:
    “I’m Chris Hansen, Dateline NBC, and we’re doing an investigation on online sexual predators….”
    (It was at that moment that “Mr Royal”/”Carlos Danger” knew… He was F’ed.)

  29. Forrest wrote:

    If there are permanent consequences then that is fine too. They brought it on themselves. Perps need to sufferconsequences.

    And ruin his future NFL Career?

  30. readingalong wrote:

    Take away phone, car keys, ground the kid, etc.

    Loss of a college athletic scholarship and perhaps a prison sentence. This is serious stuff.

  31. As the grandmother of one of the victims I want to thank you for all you have done to get this story “out there”. I am so very proud of my granddaughter for telling her story as I know it had to be very difficult for her. I absolutely hate watching her suffer with anxiety and panic attacks and cannot believe how little her school cares! She will not be able to graduate with her classmates of 4 years, yet Mr. Royal will be allowed to “proudly” walk across the stage and accept his diploma, while she will walk across a stage at a school she barely knows how navigate, with students she barely knows. How is that fair? This young man is one sick individual and his parents should have him in counseling or as you stated earlier he will continue these acts in college and the workplace. HSE should be ashamed of themselves for how they have failed these wonderful young women, along with other young women at the school. Again, thank YOU so much for standing by the victims and telling their stories.

  32. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Forrest wrote:

    If there are permanent consequences then that is fine too. They brought it on themselves. Perps need to sufferconsequences.

    And ruin his future NFL Career?

    Yup! That would certainly have the greatest overall benefit.

  33. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Max wrote:
    The college sports news is replete with high school star athletes who were recruited by top colleges, and subsequently kicked out due to assault, rape, drugs, robberies, and assorted other crimes. I suspect that many of these bady-boys were protected by high school administrators because they made their school athletic programs look good.
    Just one word — FOOTBALL — would explain everything.
    (Speaking as the Omega Male of a Football-worshipping high school. All who did not bend the knee, burn the pinch of incense, and take the Mark of the Pigskin and Gridiron were dealt with.)
    And when The Humble One (chuckle chuckle) got into Role-Playing Games, which did he get into? Satanic D&D or Respectable “NFL Team Owner/Manager: The Role-Playing Game”, AKA Fantasy Football?

    How many Lifetime Movies have been made with this theme? Prophetic or Reality TV?

  34. From the main post up top:

    “The counselor wanted her to be careful about talking about the sexual assault with her peers and offered advice on how to cope with seeing Mr Royal around the school. I guess they wouldn’t want to embarrass the outstanding Mr. Royal, would they?”

    Narcissistic bullies don’t get embarassed.
    They only get pissed-off when the flashlight crimps their style.
    This is true of them all, from small-fry like Mr. Royal up to and including…
    Well, I’ll just leave it at that…

  35. Forrest wrote:

    Consequences for this type of behaviour should be exclusion from these classes.

    I’m not sure if that would work, particularly when no one has been convicted of a crime. Thankfully doesn’t seem to be the case here.

    However, I was mostly of people seeing each in the halls, parking lots, etc. Almost unavoidable. I don’t what the solution is if you can’t yank the kid from the school and put them in whatever alternate school is available.

  36. Lea wrote:

    I’m not sure if that would work, particularly when no one has been convicted of a crime. Thankfully doesn’t seem to be the case here.

    However, I was mostly of people seeing each in the halls, parking lots, etc. Almost unavoidable. I don’t what the solution is if you can’t yank the kid from the school and put them in whatever alternate school is available.

    Yes, but it is, likewise, absurd that the victims find themselves leaving the school (in effect punished) for being victims. If an accusation is made, why can’t the alleged perp go to an alternative school instead of the victim?

  37. Lea wrote:

    Forrest wrote:
    Consequences for this type of behaviour should be exclusion from these classes.
    I’m not sure if that would work, particularly when no one has been convicted of a crime. Thankfully doesn’t seem to be the case here.
    However, I was mostly of people seeing each in the halls, parking lots, etc. Almost unavoidable. I don’t what the solution is if you can’t yank the kid from the school and put them in whatever alternate school is available.

    Don’t many districts have alternative campuses? Perfect solution until an investigation is completed.

  38. From the OP: “He asked to speak with her so he could tell her how he had changed. She refused. ”

    Mr Royal is learning at a young age how to fake repentance.

    I heard these same exact words from my EXH. “Can’t we meet somewhere so I can tell you how I’ve changed? How will you know unless I tell you about it?”

    I gave him the same response the victim gave Mr Royal; and she was wise to do so: NO.

    Transformation/repentance is not proven through discussion. It is proven through sustained behavior/practice.

    Fruit can be SEEN for what it is: rotten or false. No one needs a sales pitch to convince them that the bananas stapled to the apple tree are fake. And they will find out for themselves soon enough that the fruit is spoiled – as soon as they get past skin deep.

    Refusal to meet was wise. All that would’ve resulted was manipulation and spin. Bait:Hook:Caught. Best to avoid all that by going no-contact. I applaud them.

  39. Charis wrote:

    From the OP: “He asked to speak with her so he could tell her how he had changed. She refused. ”
    Mr Royal is learning at a young age how to fake repentance.

    Mr Royal has a lucrative career ahead of him as a Celebrity or Megachurch Lead Pastor/Founding Apostle.

  40. Diane wrote:

    She will not be able to graduate with her classmates of 4 years, yet Mr. Royal will be allowed to “proudly” walk across the stage and accept his diploma, while she will walk across a stage at a school she barely knows how navigate, with students she barely knows. How is that fair?

    We support your granddaughter and will be with her in spirit on her graduation day.

  41. Bridget wrote:

    Yes, but it is, likewise, absurd that the victims find themselves leaving the school (in effect punished) for being victims.

    I agree with you, it is absurd. It is absurd that people have to leave a school to stop being bullied as well. Sometimes these are practical solutions, but not fair ones.
    Bridget wrote:

    If an accusation is made, why can’t the alleged perp go to an alternative school instead of the victim?

    This is what would happen at work, the accused would be moved into a different department until an investigation is completed. But an investigation will be completed, and the accused will have an opportunity to address things. I don’t see that these things are really being adjudicated. The PPO is given more freely than a guilty verdict would be, but from the article, it sounds it excludes school for all these practical reasons – because the accused is still provided with an education. So what happens when this is reported to the police, and they refuse to investigate? A mess, apparently.

  42. Mercy wrote:

    Don’t many districts have alternative campuses?

    On this, there was an incident recently here…I don’t recall all the details but it turns out criminals are allowed to attend regular school and someone found out about it and was asking a bunch of questions. So I’m not even sure who goes to the alternate school. Confusing.

  43. Charis wrote:

    From the OP: “He asked to speak with her so he could tell her how he had changed. She refused. ”

    Good for her. Honestly, it isn’t relevant if he changed, or at least it wouldn’t be to me. To other people, sure.

    But the damage is already done and any attempt to minimize it would just make me angry.

  44. Lea wrote:

    Mercy wrote:
    Don’t many districts have alternative campuses?
    On this, there was an incident recently here…I don’t recall all the details but it turns out criminals are allowed to attend regular school and someone found out about it and was asking a bunch of questions. So I’m not even sure who goes to the alternate school. Confusing.

    So much wrong.

  45. Lea wrote:

    Forrest wrote:

    Consequences for this type of behaviour should be exclusion from these classes.

    I’m not sure if that would work, particularly when no one has been convicted of a crime. Thankfully doesn’t seem to be the case here.

    However, I was mostly of people seeing each in the halls, parking lots, etc. Almost unavoidable. I don’t what the solution is if you can’t yank the kid from the school and put them in whatever alternate school is available.

    If there has been any form of court order requiring that the perp stays away from his victim then alternative schooling is definitely the way to go. Even better if it hurts… oops, did I say that last bit out loud?

  46. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Just one word — FOOTBALL — would explain everything.

    I would not be surprised if this were true. Americans worship at the Alter of the Pigskin and revere all things related to this sport.

    This situation is beyond sickening and I hope that Mr. Royal will get his just desserts.

  47. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And I’m sure we’ll see Mr Royal on TV some day:
    “I’m Chris Hansen, Dateline NBC, and we’re doing an investigation on online sexual predators….”
    (It was at that moment that “Mr Royal”/”Carlos Danger” knew… He was F’ed.)

    Dick Wolf will probably have Olivia Benson go after Mr. Royal on an episode of SVU too.

  48. Lita wrote:

    This situation is beyond sickening and I hope that Mr. Royal will get his just desserts.

    Karma and her sister Comeuppance are working on it right now. They are like T-1000 models from the future. They will not stop until Themis’ balances are reset.

  49. Erp wrote:

    An article on the Mr. Royal contest (before the event and mentioning no names); it seems
    https://www.hsenews.com/2018/01/23/more-on-mr-royal/

    According to the linked news article, the “Mr. Royal” contest seems to be sponsored by or associated with HSE’s National Honor Society chapter. If this is true, perhaps NHS should be asked about why it’s affiliated with such a questionable activity, not to say such an inappropriate choice for “Mr. Royal.”

  50. Forrest wrote:

    If there has been any form of court order requiring that the perp stays away from his victim then alternative schooling is definitely the way to go.

    According to the story above, the school and church were specifically excluded from the order.

  51. Lea wrote:

    Forrest wrote:

    If there has been any form of court order requiring that the perp stays away from his victim then alternative schooling is definitely the way to go.

    According to the story above, the school and church were specifically excluded from the order.

    I think the problem is systemic. It’s as if nobody in authority really cares about the harm that is being done.

  52. hoipolloi wrote:

    According to the linked news article, the “Mr. Royal” contest seems to be sponsored by or associated with HSE’s National Honor Society chapter. If this is true, perhaps NHS should be asked about why it’s affiliated with such a questionable activity, not to say such an inappropriate choice for “Mr. Royal.”

    Sounds like a good avenue to explore.

  53. Diane,
    I’m so sorry your granddaughter was assaulted by a fellow classmate. I will be praying for her healing both emotionally and physically.

    Tto add insult to her injury she was not protected or cared for properly by their schools’s administration and to top that crap sundae off they elected him “Mr. Royal” of HSE’s 2018 school year.

    I am saddened and disgusted.

    Thank you Dee and Deb for once again shining a light on very dark people and places.

    Prayers for these girls and an added cry for justice.

  54. Two Female Students With Protective Orders Against Mr. Royal Leave the School, With a Third Still in Attendance. Does Indiana’s Hamilton Southeastern High School Prioritize the Needs of Male Students Over Female Students #metoo

    I think it’s more accurate to say they Prioritize the Needs of Star Athletes (i.e. CELEBRITIES) over mere Lowborn Students.

    The Laws of CELEBRITIES are in effect, i.e. the CELEBRITY Cannot Be Inconvenienced In Any Way Whatsoever.
    Omelets and Eggs, you understand.

  55. Lea wrote:

    So what happens when this is reported to the police, and they refuse to investigate?

    I’d wonder how many cops or their superiors in high places are ex-High School Athletes or really into Fantasy Football. For instance, the towns in California’s Central Valley are infamous for Athlete Worship, and that includes the authorities.

    (California Central Valley small-town Football Worship forms the background of the movie The Best of Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_of_Times_(film) ; the movie pokes fun at the culture, but with serious undertones.)

  56. Having spent most of my career in a high school two things of note come to mind.
    1. What sport is he needed for?
    2. Who is the family?
    Y’all may think I am kidding, this is at every school I have ever taught at….and the “clique” will go to great lengths to protect the person.

  57. Lea wrote:

    A lot of cops are also abusers, according to the women’s shelter I visited.

    Then the fox is “guarding” the hen house.

  58. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-flink-porter-domestic-violence_us_5a7cc657e4b0c6726e115d79?section=us_opinion
    “According to news reports, Porter’s ex-wives did almost everything they needed to do to document their alleged abuse. They took photos, obtained a protective order, told a trusted religious leader. As often happens, a religious lay leader discouraged Porter’s second wife from speaking out about her alleged abuse because it might harm Porter’s career and reputation. Perhaps it’s no wonder, then, that his first wife didn’t report Porter to the police. She was afraid, she told The Intercept, that they would dismiss her allegations.”

    In another venue, another case of religious leaders asleep on the job.

  59. I think it’s very telling that Mr. Royal, with a number of PO’s against him, had the nerve to boldly wave at victim #2 in the school. In my opinion, this indicates he feels confident in his protected standing at that school… protected enough so he can indulge in taunting and harassing her with the wave.

  60. How did he treat the girls in his churc? I don’t believe his only victims were his schoolmates.

    Anyone investigating his church relationships?

  61. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Two Female Students With Protective Orders Against Mr. Royal Leave the School, With a Third Still in Attendance. Does Indiana’s Hamilton Southeastern High School Prioritize the Needs of Male Students Over Female Students #metoo

    I think it’s more accurate to say they Prioritize the Needs of Star Athletes (i.e. CELEBRITIES) over mere Lowborn Students.

    The Laws of CELEBRITIES are in effect, i.e. the CELEBRITY Cannot Be Inconvenienced In Any Way Whatsoever.
    Omelets and Eggs, you understand.

    Exactly. “All animals are equal,but some are more equal than others.”

  62. In Letterman’s recent interview with Clooney, the actor says forensic accountants traced the money trail of human rights abusers right to their bank accounts. Clooney then took the investigations to the bank leaders with, “You can say you didn’t know your clients were human rights abusers but here’s the evidence, so as business leaders what are you going to do about it now?”

    TWW has put forth the evidence of the ilk of Andy Savage and Mr. Royal Rapist to church leaders and community leaders. The leaders can say they didn’t know, but NOW THAT THEY KNOW (evidence), what are they going to do about it?

  63. @ Diane:

    Diane, I’m proud of your granddaughter and of you as a grandmother. It means a lot to have family support and love when it seems like things are so unfair.

  64. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    So what happens when this is reported to the police, and they refuse to investigate?

    I’d wonder how many cops or their superiors in high places are ex-High School Athletes or really into Fantasy Football. For instance, the towns in California’s Central Valley are infamous for Athlete Worship, and that includes the authorities.

    (California Central Valley small-town Football Worship forms the background of the movie The Best of Times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_of_Times_(film) ; the movie pokes fun at the culture, but with serious undertones.)

    Having lived there for over twenty years, I agree.

  65. JYJames wrote:

    In Letterman’s recent interview with Clooney, the actor says forensic accountants traced the money trail of human rights abusers right to their bank accounts. Clooney then took the investigations to the bank leaders with, “You can say you didn’t know your clients were human rights abusers but here’s the evidence, so as business leaders what are you going to do about it now?”
    TWW has put forth the evidence of the ilk of Andy Savage and Mr. Royal Rapist to church leaders and community leaders. The leaders can say they didn’t know, but NOW THAT THEY KNOW (evidence), what are they going to do about it?

    This is key. Putting key facts in front of leadership and documenting such makes the post-WWII German excuses of “we didn’t know” fade in the sunlight.

  66. “Concern about juvenile sex offenders is a relatively recent phenomenon. Some communities have mobilized quite ener­getically in recent years to identify and intervene with such youth, conducting extensive training among law enforce­ment, child protection staff, and educators and establishing specialized treatment programs. In other communities, however, concern about the problem has been slow to develop.”

    The priority of institutions to look the other way on behavior like this has been picking up steam over time. And the upcoming push for federal legislation to avoid “criminalizing” the crime-committing populace figures to only have a wrist-slapping effect going forward. Also, look at the number of cities like Indy with thousands of untested rape kits. Sunlight into these bunkers is desperately needed, and the work you all are doing in that regard is appreciated.

  67. JYJames wrote:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-flink-porter-domestic-violence_us_5a7cc657e4b0c6726e115d79?section=us_opinion
    “According to news reports, Porter’s ex-wives did almost everything they needed to do to document their alleged abuse. They took photos, obtained a protective order, told a trusted religious leader. As often happens, a religious lay leader discouraged Porter’s second wife from speaking out about her alleged abuse because it might harm Porter’s career and reputation. Perhaps it’s no wonder, then, that his first wife didn’t report Porter to the police. She was afraid, she told The Intercept, that they would dismiss her allegations.”

    In another venue, another case of religious leaders asleep on the job.

    Or perhaps wide awake but just doing a different job to the one they should be doing.

  68. @ Song of Joy:
    That was the last straw. After the wave is when Victim #2 decided she couldn’t attend her school any longer and made the decision to transfer. 🙁

  69. Diane wrote:

    I am so very proud of my granddaughter for telling her story as I know it had to be very difficult for her. I absolutely hate watching her suffer with anxiety and panic attacks and cannot believe how little her school cares!

    Your granddaughter is a strong young lady with lots of potential. I do hope and pray that she can use what has happened, and what is happening in positive ways. Please give her a hug from us, and tell her that Lord only knows how many friends she has, whom she’s never met, who support and admire her.

  70. JDV wrote:

    Sunlight into these bunkers is desperately needed, and the work you all are doing in that regard is appreciated.

    Yes!

    – Institutions that look the other way
    – Legislators who de-criminalize criminals
    – Churches that applaud predators and “forgive”
    – Leaders who subvert the truth, employ predators, shun/shame victims
    Etc.

    Let their core character be known.

    Was Sandusky’s The Second Mile nonprofit organization for underprivileged youth worth the damage of those he then selected, targeted and victimized? Are Weinstein’s, Polanski’s, Cosby’s, Woody Allen’s films – worth it? What kind of a world do we want to live in?

  71. Every administrator in that school should be looking for a job in another field, losing their license to be in education. Every teacher who became aware of the situation and did not act to protect the abused students should take an unpaid sabbatical to consider what they should have done and why they didn’t. It is criminal, immoral, and unethical to do what has been done here by the school personnel; if it is not criminal under state law, the state needs some new legislation.

  72. An Attorney wrote:

    It is criminal, immoral, and unethical to do what has been done here by the school personnel

    Even if Mr. Royal is popular, smart, and a star athlete?! What would be wrong with giving him a break to protect our school’s reputation, our jobs? We wouldn’t want to drag his nice family through this; we can handle it. We just bent the moral and ethical rules a little bit to cover his sins – doesn’t even the Bible say something about covering a multitude of sins? Besides, good high school football players are very important, you know … they are even more important than school administrators and teachers. Like that young preacher in Memphis, we looked at this as an “incident”, not abuse. We can handle it just like his church did.

  73. Max wrote:

    Mr. Royal is popular, smart, and a star athlete

    Max wrote:

    Like that young preacher in Memphis

    Time to re-consider: Who is a Star?

    An agent of a world-class musician once told us that he doesn’t represent bad characters – “… no matter how much ‘talent’ they have. Not worth it, to promote a jerk. Find other talent. They’re out there. The good guys.” I

    In these cases, a criminal.

  74. TomkeinOK wrote:

    How did he treat the girls in his churc? I don’t believe his only victims were his schoolmates.

    My guess would be that there was a lot of overlap between church and hs, at least that was the case when I was in school..

  75. An Attorney wrote:

    Every administrator in that school should be looking for a job in another field, losing their license to be in education. Every teacher who became aware of the situation and did not act to protect the abused students should take an unpaid sabbatical to consider what they should have done and why they didn’t. It is criminal, immoral, and unethical to do what has been done here by the school personnel; if it is not criminal under state law, the state needs some new legislation.

    That’s so easy for you to say, sadly teachers, administration trying to do the right thing are often discarded like and replaced by someone else. Trust me it happen to me and I had to move 300 miles to find a new lower paying teaching position. Luckily I wasn’t faced with the same situation.

  76. This advice from SBTS is being mercilessly mocked by Christians on other sites who disagree with complementarianism:

    How to pastor women (without making them uncomfortable)
    http://equip.sbts.edu/article/pastor-women-without-making-uncomfortable/

    The consensus is that the guy who wrote it doesn’t want himself or other male pastors to feel uncomfortable, it’s not really about putting women at ease.

    This is point 2 on his list:
    “2. COPY THE WOMAN’S HUSBAND AND YOUR WIFE IN EMAILS”

    Hmm. So if you’re a single woman, then what?

    Snippet from his page:

    1. THE “OLD ENOUGH TO BE YOUR GRANDMOTHER” RULE
    I feel a freedom to visit an elderly widow in her home or the hospital alone if there is a sizable gap in age versus going to visit a needy, flirtatious, recently divorced woman around my age, which I never do alone! It’s wise not to compromise this rule. Remember, the rule is “grandmother” not “mother.”

    Both ageist and sexist all at once (and all divorced women around his age are too flirty, needy, etc?). Nice job on getting so much offensiveness all in one fell swoop.

  77. Daisy wrote:

    Greg Laurie Rebukes Christians Who Go Church Hopping or Vent Against Their Church Online
    https://www.christianpost.com/news/greg-laurie-rebukes-christians-who-go-church-hopping-or-vent-against-their-church-online-217156/

    I guess people are supposed to just stay in abusive or generally lousy churches and keep quiet about it? That sounds like what that headline is suggesting.

    Or perhaps it just suggests that Mr Laurie doesn’t like people knowing what’s going on in his cult.

  78. Forrest wrote:

    doesn’t like people knowing what’s going on in his cult

    Reminiscent of Robert Morris calling blogs “Satan’s Hit List”:

    “I’m really concerned about how much time people spend on the Internet. I’m extremely concerned about it. Extremely concerned about it; here’s one thing, just even the blogs that mention Christian leaders, and I’m one of ‘em. Praise the Lord, I’ve made the Satan, Satan’s hit list now you know, but here’s what blows me away. You wouldn’t listen to gossip, but you’ll read it.”

  79. Daisy wrote:

    Greg Laurie Rebukes Christians Who Go Church Hopping or Vent Against Their Church Online
    https://www.christianpost.com/news/greg-laurie-rebukes-christians-who-go-church-hopping-or-vent-against-their-church-online-217156/
    I guess people are supposed to just stay in abusive or generally lousy churches and keep quiet about it? That sounds like what that headline is suggesting.

    Quotes from the article: “Church is not just a place to attend, it’s a place to participate. You become a family. It’s in the church that you find accountability. Church is a place to develop and use your gifts, and you need a pastor and a consistent theology. Other pastors will agree with me on this statement.”
    Does that accountability extends to the overseers/leaders? There’s those Scriptures about being blameless; where is the accountability for(often) paid leadership going to come from?

    “Sometimes the problem isn’t the church, the problem is you,” Laurie said, noting that no church and no person is perfect.”

    What if wolves disguised as ministers of righteousness come in and don’t spare the flock? In those cases the problem is the church leadership, so how is that to be addressed, especially if the wolves weaponize Matthew 18 Hebrews 13:17 etc. to their advantage and abuse it?

    “Later on in the sermon, he also warned against Christians who are critical and vent online about the problems in their church.”

    Note as has been discussed that the action itself receives the chilling rebuke rather than whether it is necessary and/or warranted. If one has gone through channels and leadership has failed and or deceived (actively or by omission or stonewalling), criticizing and rebuking that through straightforward means — which can include online discussion and stating one’s case — is legitimate. It’s good to do so advisedly and minimizing vitriol, but just because the truth can bring about anger and division does not mean it is not Christian to share it (as apparently some need to be reminded of that).

  80. JYJames wrote:

    Another high school, with “elite” athlete predators (student “leaders” and “stars”), as well as victims, this time, fellow athletes: high school boys.

    In my high school (Arroyo High, El Monte, CA, 1969-73), this was called “taking you out behind the backstop”, and I was frequently threatened with it.

    And it is NOT considered Homosexuality. (Except for the rape victim, who is now and forever the “School Fag”.) Just like in prison showers, where it’s called “Making a WOMAN out of him”. And those who penetrated him are even More Manly because they did so. They can do to another man what is done to a woman — Penetrator over Penetrated in an ANIMAL forced-dominance display — “PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”

  81. Thank you WW for this detailed report.

    To Diane above, and to the three young victims: I’m so very sorry for the harm you’ve endured and the ongoing pain of justice denied. And not only denied, but also including extra heaps of mockery and mob bullying. I wish I could tell you this is outrageous and will certainly be rectified. But the sad truth in our fallen, increasingly pagan society, is that your situation is far more the norm than it is an outlier.

    So I’d recommend pacing yourselves, bracing for defeats, and most of all fortifying yourselves with God’s Word and fellowship with faithful believers. Please closely follow the example and ongoing efforts of Rachael Denhollander. Realize how long and arduous was her path to obtaining justice for Larry Nassar. Her perseverance and careful steps over many years, combined with her strong faith, yielded justice for the perpetrator and much peace & healing for hundreds of victims.

    I wish you and your entire families the peace of our Lord, and all the strength and endurance required to come through this ordeal whole, and even to help and inspire others along the way.

  82. Daisy wrote:

    This advice from SBTS is being mercilessly mocked by Christians on other sites who disagree with complementarianism:

    How to pastor women (without making them uncomfortable)
    http://equip.sbts.edu/article/pastor-women-without-making-uncomfortable/

    The consensus is that the guy who wrote it doesn’t want himself or other male pastors to feel uncomfortable, it’s not really about putting women at ease.

    This is point 2 on his list:
    “2. COPY THE WOMAN’S HUSBAND AND YOUR WIFE IN EMAILS”

    Hmm. So if you’re a single woman, then what?

    Snippet from his page:

    1. THE “OLD ENOUGH TO BE YOUR GRANDMOTHER” RULE
    I feel a freedom to visit an elderly widow in her home or the hospital alone if there is a sizable gap in age versus going to visit a needy, flirtatious, recently divorced woman around my age, which I never do alone! It’s wise not to compromise this rule. Remember, the rule is “grandmother” not “mother.”

    Both ageist and sexist all at once (and all divorced women around his age are too flirty, needy, etc?). Nice job on getting so much offensiveness all in one fell swoop.

    The Grandmother Rule! Laughable. And Flirtatious Divorcees….they actually put all of that in writing! These men don’t trust themselves to be men of integrity.

  83. Mercy wrote:

    These men don’t trust themselves to be men of integrity.

    Many of these men have never been men of integrity. They just want to pass themselves off as such.

  84. Disgusted wrote:

    What’s equally disturbing is Mr Royal’s mom is a teacher. @ ishy:

    This actually explains a lot about the voting situation then.

    It makes me much more suspicious about mom’s “I can’t control him!” comment, though. Homeschool him. Move him to an alternative school. Make him take his GED and start college online. Control his internet and phone.

  85. JDV wrote:

    “Church is not just a place to attend, it’s a place to participate. You become a family. It’s in the church that you find accountability. Church is a place to develop and use your gifts, and you need a pastor and a consistent theology. Other pastors will agree with me on this statement.”

    I bet church hopping is viewed as a big problem to a megachurch. They attract by being trendy, and when the shine and smoke wears off, people go elsewhere. And all those huge staff budgets still have to be paid somehow!

    These giant churches don’t want to be places for people to use their gifts. They want you to be greeters and put you in huge life groups where only one person is in charge. I know. I’ve been to a bunch of them.

    My tiny church worries about people who leave wondering if they are okay. Does Greg Laurie’s church do that? I can’t think of a megachurch where anybody cared when I left.

  86. Disgusted wrote:

    What’s equally disturbing is Mr Royal’s mom is a teacher. @ ishy:

    Ah. You know, that explains winning a popularity contest to me. Teachers always know the other teachers kids

  87. Mercy wrote:

    And Flirtatious Divorcees….they actually put all of that in writing!

    I was more saddened by the ‘needy’ description. Sometimes women actually genuinely need something, especially after a divorce. And I’m not talking about sex. There is nothing wrong with that and maybe if you are going to presume to counsel or care for people, you should have compassion for that and not contempt.

  88. ishy wrote:

    These giant churches don’t want to be places for people to use their gifts. They want you to be greeters and put you in huge life groups where only one person is in charge. I know. I’ve been to a bunch of them.

    I only experienced 1 mega. Didn’t mind the anonymity so much. When I stopped attending, it was a clean break. A friend of mine is having a challenge leaving a closer knit small church. Six of one, half a dozen of the other I suppose.

  89. I think that this school could be considered a closed community, like a church or even Hollywood where your networks, your future, in some cases your career are dependent on others. At our school there was a strong code of silence around certain individuals. Rumors about certain students & teachers. Time to start breaking that cycle. It can no longer be “business as usual”.
    In another “what the blink” moment one of my newsfeeds posted a story about a Pennsylvania town that just elected a convicted sex offender as fire chief and the mayor supports it! There’s still a lot of work to be done. According to the article, the guy claims it was 20 years ago and he’s changed after prison. We should start naming this the “20 year syndrome”.

  90. Lea wrote:

    Ah. You know, that explains winning a popularity contest to me. Teachers always know the other teachers kids

    They don’t know this teachers child very well then, do they? Or, the alternative is, they don’t care about Mr. Royal’s treatment of female classmates.

  91. Max wrote:

    Do you reckon that T4G will come to this realization?!

    Not until they lose $pon$or$hip and conference attendees. They will have no reason to make any changes until what truly matters to them is taken away.

  92. ishy wrote:

    My tiny church worries about people who leave wondering if they are okay. Does Greg Laurie’s church do that? I can’t think of a megachurch where anybody cared when I left.

    Mrs. Muff’s hairdresser briefly attended Laurie’s mega-church in Riverside. She said the place has a high turnover rate except for the hardcore cadre of tithing units in the pews.
    But the real kicker for her was the ‘singles’ ministry.
    She said she would have felt safer in a piranha tank.

  93. Muff Potter wrote:

    But the real kicker for her was the ‘singles’ ministry.
    She said she would have felt safer in a piranha tank.

    A participant tweeted the same about a singles ministry that Andy Savage ran at some point.

    Is there a method to the madness of supplying fresh opportunities for those seeking “incidents”?

  94. I am confused about this “Mr. Royal” contest. Is it something only teachers and administrators vote on? It seems kind of inappropriate, in my opinion.

  95. ION: Sport

    A stirring second-half comeback at SirAndyMurrayfield this afternoon gave Scotland a 32-26 win over France in the Six Nations rugby. Next up for Scotland is another home game – against England. There’ll be no lack of atmosphere… I’m very tempted to try and get tickets.

    #SplitLoyalties

  96. MomKB wrote:

    I am confused about this “Mr. Royal” contest. Is it something only teachers and administrators vote on? It seems kind of inappropriate, in my opinion.

    Sounds like it would select for brown-nosers and suck-ups to the teachers and administrators. With inside-track bonus if you’re a teacher/administrator’s kid.

  97. JYJames wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:
    But the real kicker for her was the ‘singles’ ministry.
    She said she would have felt safer in a piranha tank.
    A participant tweeted the same about a singles ministry that Andy Savage ran at some point.
    Is there a method to the madness of supplying fresh opportunities for those seeking “incidents”?

    Must be “organic” oppotunities….

  98. JYJames wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    But the real kicker for her was the ‘singles’ ministry.
    She said she would have felt safer in a piranha tank.

    A participant tweeted the same about a singles ministry that Andy Savage ran at some point.

    Is there a method to the madness of supplying fresh opportunities for those seeking “incidents”?

    Brings all the prey within easy range of the lazy predator.
    Feature, not Bug.

  99. Muff Potter wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    My tiny church worries about people who leave wondering if they are okay. Does Greg Laurie’s church do that? I can’t think of a megachurch where anybody cared when I left.

    Mrs. Muff’s hairdresser briefly attended Laurie’s mega-church in Riverside. She said the place has a high turnover rate except for the hardcore cadre of tithing units in the pews.
    But the real kicker for her was the ‘singles’ ministry.
    She said she would have felt safer in a piranha tank.

    Now that speaks volumes. Lots of opportunities for ‘organic’ moments?

  100. Jack wrote:

    I only experienced 1 mega. Didn’t mind the anonymity so much. When I stopped attending, it was a clean break. A friend of mine is having a challenge leaving a closer knit small church. Six of one, half a dozen of the other I suppose.

    I was basing my arguments purely from Laurie’s. I know his church probably isn’t anything that he says it is. I don’t know how many megachurch pastors I’ve heard say that they are all about helping people use their gifts and being about fellowship when that is wholly untrue in every one of those churches I’ve visited. Not many people get to use their gifts in megachurches and if there is fellowship, it’s because a few people who aren’t in leadership have created their own groups.

    There definitely is some advantages in the anonymity of going to a megachurch, though I do think it gets old after awhile when no one cares whether or not you go.

  101. MomKB wrote:

    I am confused about this “Mr. Royal” contest. Is it something only teachers and administrators vote on? It seems kind of inappropriate, in my opinion.

    Yep! I totally agree.

  102. Bridget wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Ah. You know, that explains winning a popularity contest to me. Teachers always know the other teachers kids

    They don’t know this teachers child very well then, do they? Or, the alternative is, they don’t care about Mr. Royal’s treatment of female classmates.

    What I mean is that teachers kids get extra leeway from other teachers, more likely to be nominated for stuff based on that (my school teachers nominated for girls/boys state for instance). Especially in a large school. They knew his name and that he was a teachers kid. That bumps him above random kids. I don’t mean they judged him correctly.

  103. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Next up for Scotland is another home game – against England. There’ll be no lack of atmosphere… I’m very tempted to try and get tickets.

    Never! Never let the English trample on yer’ God given rights!

  104. JDV wrote:

    It’s in the church that you find accountability.

    This is part of the problem. Quite a few years ago I got out a concordance looking for proof-texts on accountability. The results shocked me. Accountability among believers is not taught in the Bible, which is contrary to what I was taught in fundagelicalism. However, God did give civil government the power of the sword. I suppose this means that civil matters such as sexual abuse should be handled by civil authorities.

  105. Muff Potter wrote:

    Mrs. Muff’s hairdresser briefly attended Laurie’s mega-church in Riverside.

    What – Hugh Laurie, the laddie who played House? I didn’t know he owned a church. It would make sense, mind.

  106. Muff Potter wrote:

    Never! Never let the English trample on yer’ God given rights!

    Well, to cut a long story short… your advice comes a bit late, TBH.

    🙁

  107. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Here in my area of Southern Cali, fitba’ is gaining popularity by leaps and bounds.
    Much more so than in times past due in large part to the influx of immigrants from Mexico.
    Many Anglo-Saxon lads here are now choosing fitba’ over the risky brutality of football.

  108. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    This is part of the problem. Quite a few years ago I got out a concordance looking for proof-texts on accountability. The results shocked me.

    I remember when you articulated this some months ago. Accountability had been bandied about in my realm of Christendom for decades. Recalling the old Promise Keepers who seemed to rigorously push the idea of accountability, at the time it seemed wrong headed and was certainly discouraging. So, when you made your comment I already had my suspicions which your insight sharpened and so far that judgement has held up with further scrutiny.

  109. Thersites wrote:

    Recalling the old Promise Keepers who seemed to rigorously push the idea of accountability, at the time it seemed wrong headed and was certainly discouraging.

    I got liquored up on accountability through both PK and The Navigators. But unlike you, I could not see it being wrong-headed until, in my zeal, I tried to proof-text it. After that I went the other direction. Now, in light of topics like this on TWW, accountability is looking more positive again. Good or bad, one cannot use the Bible to push accountability. Maybe it is a bad tool in the church but an outstanding tool for civil authority. Hence the need for mandatory reporting.

  110. Thersites wrote:

    the old Promise Keepers who seemed to rigorously push the idea of accountability

    Ahhh, yes the PK accountability groups. They were famous for men dragging their butts into group meetings week after week and confessing their sins before the brethren … then going right back out to sin again … then coming back the next week to confess again … etc. etc. I bet there are some of those groups still meeting, with men never actually being held accountable to anything, nor advancing in their spiritual walk enough to overcome temptation.

  111. Max wrote:

    men dragging their butts into group meetings week after week and confessing their sins before the brethren … then going right back out to sin again

    That was the discouraging part. Generally if you focus on something it is hard not to do it. On the other hand a positive purpose is a great tonic to crowd out sin. So instead of helping us find our purpose and set goals they focused on sin, small minds.

  112. Max wrote:

    I bet there are some of those groups still meeting, with men never actually being held accountable to anything, nor advancing in their spiritual walk enough to overcome temptation.

    Mulling the idea over, can it be posited that accountability groups rely more on group pressure which seems to reward cowardice and even dishonesty? I’m trying to put a finger on my gut reaction way back then.

  113. ishy wrote:

    JDV wrote:
    “Church is not just a place to attend, it’s a place to participate. You become a family. It’s in the church that you find accountability. Church is a place to develop and use your gifts, and you need a pastor and a consistent theology. Other pastors will agree with me on this statement.”
    I bet church hopping is viewed as a big problem to a megachurch. They attract by being trendy, and when the shine and smoke wears off, people go elsewhere. And all those huge staff budgets still have to be paid somehow!
    These giant churches don’t want to be places for people to use their gifts. They want you to be greeters and put you in huge life groups where only one person is in charge. I know. I’ve been to a bunch of them.
    My tiny church worries about people who leave wondering if they are okay. Does Greg Laurie’s church do that? I can’t think of a megachurch where anybody cared when I left.

    Their only care would be how it impacted their budget.

    J.M.

  114. @ Judas Maccabeus: My personal experience. In the past nine years, I’ve had to move on from two “churches”, one a medium size nondenominational and one a Southern Baptist (that was for all intents a mega-church). In both cases, I never heard from anyone checking up on me to see if I was okay or to ask me what happened. I’m not angry about it, more sad and disappointed. I now consider myself a “done” although I am still a believer and still fellowship with my Christian friends in a variety of ways.

  115. @ Max: Robert Morris needs to understand that it isn’t gossip if its true. Further, sometimes airing the truth online is the only avenue left when so-called leaders refuse to listen to the honest critique from “good Bereans”.

  116. Thersites wrote:

    Generally if you focus on something it is hard not to do it. On the other hand a positive purpose is a great tonic to crowd out sin.

    This is such a great insight! It summarizes the ickiness that I feel toward certain approaches to youth ministry too. Imagine if all that time and energy spent harping on purity Purity PURITY were used toward supporting kids growing into young adults of faith who live in the real world.

  117. Thersites wrote:

    So instead of helping us find our purpose and set goals they focused on sin, small minds.

    So then came along Rick Warren and his purpose-driven life, with little attention given to sin and repentance. It takes a balance. Someone once said that an overemphasis of a long-neglected truth can become heresy. Accountability groups won’t do it. Purpose-driven lives won’t do it. It takes a personal relationship with the living Christ to get it right – forgiveness, redemption and purpose can only be found in Him.

  118. Caroline wrote:

    Imagine if all that time and energy spent harping on purity Purity PURITY were used toward supporting kids growing into young adults of faith who live in the real world.

    Amen. The American church does the next generation a great disservice by trying to control the flesh without feeding the spirit. The purity message forces a young mind to dwell on “don’t do this”, while a pursuit of holiness (a forgotten message in today’s church) puts Christ back at the center “do this in Jesus’ name.” Most youth ministries just keep flesh-babies entertained, rather than nurturing Christlikeness and maturing young adults in the things of the Lord. True love might wait, but the real world is now … and young Christians need to be equipped to live in it.

  119. Caroline wrote:

    approaches to youth ministry

    An area that needs a great overhaul in the American church! Instead of putting our youth under an inexperienced preacher-boy fresh out of seminary, we need seasoned men and women of God leading them.

  120. I remember the accountability push – Navigators, PK, and more. We were encouraged to link up with one or two close friends and create Partners to whom we would confess all and be held accountable in loving honesty.

    Even then, I remember the nudge of the Holy Spirit whispering to me that my accountability was to God alone. It struck me then that if I could not reset the alarm within my mind/conscience to be alert to the gentle tug of the Holy Spirit whenever I crossed the line, sinned – then no amount of discussing the matter with a friend would help.

    Case in point, these scandals we see – reflect the human tendency to extend a wrong form of grace. To look the other way. To see in the other person our own fallen nature and brokenness. To extend a “pass” and cheat the system.

    No. Accountability is not with one another. It is with God. We answer to Him and Him alone.

  121. @ Max:
    Max, you said it better than I could. A list of “don’ts” or a set of boxes to check won’t add up to discipleship. Too many church people only have those lists of dos and don’ts but lack real discernment and maturity.

  122. Charis wrote:

    I remember the accountability push – Navigators, PK, and more. We were encouraged to link up with one or two close friends and create Partners to whom we would confess all and be held accountable in loving honesty.

    Which all too often degenerated into Party Cells, each with a Commissar/Informer in Loving Honesty(TM).
    Long Live Big Brother.

    And the Navigators specifically had a reputation for extremism — JMJ/Christian Monist has some horror stories about his experience as a Nav. And at Cal Poly Pomona in the Seventies, they had a rep for the highest burnout and flunkout rates.

  123. Max wrote:

    The purity message forces a young mind to dwell on “don’t do this”

    I agree with your sentiment.

    I read an article a couple years back (can’t recall the source) that posited “rules fail.” I think it was a parenting article. It intrigued me. Parenting can largely be rules based. But this article was coming from a different direction – teach critical thinking. Teach concepts and values and then allow the child the freedom to choose. Allow consequences to be reward/punishment of those choices and the child will grow much deeper in the values you are instilling. Because why…rules will always fail. There will be an exception. There will be a rebellion. There will be an reason why it doesn’t fit. Etc. Etc. Rules fail.

    So, what’s my relevant example?

    My small son (6yrs old) has a camera (fisher price learners toy). He found it funny to sneak into the bathroom and snap photos of me while I was shaving my legs (inappropriate attire for photos). My instinct was to discuss with him the “rules” of using a camera: We don’t take photos of people without their consent, We don’t take photos of people who aren’t fully clothed, etc. And I started down that path – discussing the logic and reasoning behind such good rules of photography.

    Then I read the article and could see all the exceptions (age, artistic expression, etc). So I changed tactics. The issue is one of respect and this is a much better conversation to have with him. It is a concept we continually discuss that touches all areas of life…including who we take photos of and how. It includes self respect.

    So, my encouragement is – the church would do well to consider the same. Move away from “don’t do this” or “do this.” Maybe move more toward “this is what love looks like” or “this is what repentance looks like” and let the youth digest that for themselves.

  124. Max wrote:

    Amen. The American church does the next generation a great disservice by trying to control the flesh without feeding the spirit.

    Max, the main flaw in your writing is overuse of Christianese “insider language”. It obscures your clarity to outsiders.

    The purity message forces a young mind to dwell on “don’t do this”, while a pursuit of holiness (a forgotten message in today’s church) puts Christ back at the center “do this in Jesus’ name.”

    The Purity Message(TM) is also a pursuit of holiness, just the Purity Message defines Holiness entirely in NEGATIVE terms — “Thou Shalt Not”.

    Result? Obsessive sin-sniffing, Excessive Scrupulosity (a form of OCD), living in fear and terror of “backsliding” into “impurity”, and “Don’t-Think-Pink Syndrome”. Type Example (according to Slacktivist)? Kirk Cameron.

    What you term the “pursuit of holiness” is Holiness presented in POSITIVE terms — something to strive for instead of something to sniff out and shun.

    Max wrote:

    So then came along Rick Warren and his purpose-driven life, with little attention given to sin and repentance. It takes a balance. Someone once said that an overemphasis of a long-neglected truth can become heresy.

    Chesterton once wrote that Christianity is a dynamic balance of many opposing doctrines, “any one of which in isolation could lay waste to a world”.

  125. Charis wrote:

    teach critical thinking … rules will always fail … move more toward “this is what love looks like” or “this is what repentance looks like” and let the youth digest that for themselves

    Good words. Children/youth need to develop critical thinking skills or they will be ensnared by group-think. There is no better way for a young person to mature spiritually than to be taught and shown what genuine faith looks like. How-to and self-help books won’t do it … a youth minister armed with the latest formulas for corralling the flesh won’t do it. Christlikeness must be patterned before them. Mature saints of God need to be instructing our children, not preacher-boys who don’t have control of their own flesh.

  126. Caroline wrote:

    A list of “don’ts” or a set of boxes to check won’t add up to discipleship.

    It’s the difference between law vs. life.

  127. Charis wrote:

    that posited “rules fail.”

    I completely agree with this. I think if you don’t sign on to the principle behind the rule, you will never follow the rule itself when no one is watching and you will never know when rules should be broken.

    Teach what’s important, why we value other people…teach true kindness and morality. Teach why you don’t touch a hot pot, not just blind obedience. And the kids will hopefully grow and be able to interpret and decide for themselves.

  128. @ Charis:
    That’s a great example. I try to talk with my kids about decisions in this general way too. You can get a lot of mileage with teenagers out of the same questions that you use with young children: Is this a kind or helpful thing to do? Is this a safe and healthy situation? etc

    Also, I find it ironic that your 6-year-old understands responsible photography better than the teenagers in the post.

  129. Max wrote:

    Mature saints of God need to be instructing our children, not preacher-boys who don’t have control of their own flesh

    Much to agree upon with this Max. Ageism is rampant in the secular world too. When it trickles into the Church, the kids have no reference frame into the past, what was good from the past, and what should be held onto.

  130. Muff Potter wrote:

    the kids have no reference frame into the past, what was good from the past, and what should be held onto

    In many corners of Christendom, the youth group is running the church! A balanced church is multi-generational. We need the energy of youth coupled with the wisdom of age … young folks to speed things up a bit, older folks to slow it down. Scripture is clear that older saints are to instruct younger believers. It seems that we’ve lost this balance in the American church.

  131. Max wrote:

    Caroline wrote:

    approaches to youth ministry

    An area that needs a great overhaul in the American church! Instead of putting our youth under an inexperienced preacher-boy fresh out of seminary, we need seasoned men and women of God leading them.

    Exactly! It needs wisdom and that generally comes with experience. It’s not about being cool.

  132. Max wrote:

    we need seasoned men and women of God leading them.

    How about their parents as the first option.

  133. Max wrote:

    We need the energy of youth coupled with the wisdom of age

    I see a lot of younger seminary types being taught by the elders…like Piper.

    Age doesn’t always come with wisdom.

  134. Charis wrote:

    So, my encouragement is – the church would do well to consider the same. Move away from “don’t do this” or “do this.” Maybe move more toward “this is what love looks like” or “this is what repentance looks like” and let the youth digest that for themselves.

    I believe it was rules-based religion that led to the eventual divorces of most of my Christian college friends. Marriage and purity was pushed so hard there that people rushed to get married without knowing the person they were marrying. Most chose based on looks and/or the first person that asked them out. Many seemed to desperately want this “love at first sight” narrative, but I believe it’s what their parents demanded from them “to keep them from sin”. I know, as a female especially, I heard over and over that my only worth was in how pure I kept myself.

    I never bought it, but many of my friends and acquaintances did. I didn’t come from an evangelical family though, so I can’t imagine the intense pressure that many people I knew there endured because their parents saw sex outside of marriage as the worst possible sin. I had one friend that told me after her divorce that she knew he was not good for her, but she was afraid she’d never get married if she didn’t marry him (note, she was maybe 25).

  135. Bridget wrote:

    Max wrote:
    we need seasoned men and women of God leading them.
    //
    How about their parents as the first option.

    I’m really torn on youth ministry. But my experience working with the youth for several years was that the parents were way bigger snobs than the kids.

    I actually volunteered in that ministry right after I heard several of those moms talking in the bathroom about how to keep the “undesirable” kids in the youth group away from their children. And what they considered undesirable was that those kids were lonely, hurting, and not “cool”. I marched straight to the youth minister that week to volunteer. I saw those parents say and do some horrible things and be some of the worst influences on that group. Their kids, however, did a much better job of being Christlike and showing love to one another.

    I will note, though, that most of that snobby group left during the church split for a New Cal church. I am afraid that their kids bought the New Cal lies and turned into the same kind of people.

  136. Max wrote:

    So then came along Rick Warren and his purpose-driven life, with little attention given to sin and repentance. It takes a balance. Someone once said that an overemphasis of a long-neglected truth can become heresy. Accountability groups won’t do it. Purpose-driven lives won’t do it. It takes a personal relationship with the living Christ to get it right – forgiveness, redemption and purpose can only be found in Him.

    Max,

    THANK YOU for saying what many of us have been feeling for a LOOOOOOONG time! There’s too much fruitcake preaching in the church that just makes people feel good but never deals with real issues. God isn’t going to start erasing all His standards just because some people get offended by them and others are afraid to preach them.

  137. @ ishy:
    There were definitely cliquish aspects to my youth group, and I know the youth pastor(‘s wife, who I’m just going to say was just as much a pastor as he was) noticed, commented and was saddened by it. I think some of it is an extension of high school that most people grown out of and possibly unavoidable. It shouldn’t be encouraged, though.

  138. @ ishy:

    I hear what your saying. However, parents need to grow up in Christ and be a model to their own children and not trust/expect some other adult to do their job.

    I cannot trust leaders in churches with children at this time. They seem to end up power hungry the way the system is now.

  139. FW Rez wrote:

    “[David] Platt asks trustees to begin search for successor”

    Certainly OK with me. During his time there, he gutted one of the greatest mission forces for evangelism on the planet. He “retired” 1200 career missionaries (predominantly non-Calvinist) claiming a funding shortage, while his buddy Kevin Ezell over at the North American Mission Board found enough money to spend $60 million per year to plant 1,000 New Calvinist churches each year. If and when they replace those foreign missionaries, they will be reformed.

  140. Max wrote:

    During his time there

    For those who may not know, David Platt is President of SBC’s International Mission Board (foreign mission program). A New Calvinist icon, Platt got that position during the New Calvinist takeover of key SBC entities.

  141. Lea wrote:

    Age doesn’t always come with wisdom.

    Agreed … but it helps. 🙂 Gray hair didn’t help Piper, though – by his own admission, he’s a hedonist.

  142. ishy wrote:

    my experience working with the youth for several years was that the parents were way bigger snobs than the kid

    Some of the meanest adults on the planet are church members. I just returned from a trip to the grocery store – parked by a truck with the following bumper sticker: “Spiritual People Inspire Me; Religious People Frighten Me” …. yep. American churches are packed with religious people who are spiritually destitute … they are a scary bunch indeed.

  143. Bridget wrote:

    parents need to grow up in Christ and be a model to their own children and not trust/expect some other adult to do their job.

    I know I have said this before, but here I go again. Our pastor started out as a youth pastor, and he has done a 10 year follow up on how the kids turned out. He concludes that kids turn out to be like the families they come from–church youth group or not. He has told our church basically these are your kids and your responsibility and we are not hiring a youth pastor. That said, the new and younger curate is teaching ‘formation’ which is like Sunday School. Young curate is married but no kids yet, pleasant and rather calm and laid back. Father S has done a few things like take the kids over to the local synagogue where the rabbi talked to them about Judaism–nothing remotely like the neo-cals do.

    GK#1 aka the competitor was given the opportunity to go to SBC mega for high school because of the academic advantage, but she said she basically wanted nothing further to do with ‘snotty rich kids’. She is thriving academically in public school and is happy enough. And this time last year she requested to be confirmed in our church and completed the process.

    So we are thinking, who needs the current idea of ‘youth group’. In our family we are on a long process of basically dropping out of a lot of ‘accepted’ ways to doing right many things, and we are having success in the process.

    BTW and for what it’s worth. I was worried about my son because we knew he was on some sort of assignment and he was out of touch. I asked Max to pay for him. Max said he and his wife did-and Crasher said she did. Anyhow, when we got up the next morning I found a text from him on my phone. Imagine that. Thanks Max, Max’s wife and Crasher. Could be co-incidence–or not.

  144. @ okrapod:

    Error: to ‘pray’ for him

    Aging brain syndrome. I am not as accurate as I used to be and I never was. (That is not a typo.)

  145. okrapod wrote:

    Could be co-incidence–or not.

    Praise the Lord, Okrapod – great to know that you have heard from your son! So glad that I was at my computer when your prayer request came in – in Kingdom work, I don’t believe in coincidence.

  146. okrapod wrote:

    Our pastor started out as a youth pastor, and he has done a 10 year follow up on how the kids turned out. He concludes that kids turn out to be like the families they come from–church youth group or not. He has told our church basically these are your kids and your responsibility and we are not hiring a youth pastor.

    Forty years ago, we attended a rural church near a coal strip mining community. We decided to run a bus ministry there. Many of the children came from broken homes, some with parents in prison for various crimes. The first Sunday, we had 37 kids on the bus. They had never been to church before and were unruly to say the least. To control the chaos, children were assigned “grandparents”, church members to sit with and talk to them. We didn’t have a youth minister, so the members took care of them and told them about Jesus. As time went on, we saw many of those children come to Christ, three of the boys later went into ministry, others are now leaders in that church. We just rolled up our sleeves, loved them, and discipled them in Jesus’ name … perhaps, a youth minister would have done a more professional job.

  147. Bridget wrote:

    I hear what your saying. However, parents need to grow up in Christ and be a model to their own children and not trust/expect some other adult to do their job.

    I cannot trust leaders in churches with children at this time. They seem to end up power hungry the way the system is now.

    I think no youth ministry is a better option than that kind of youth ministry. And I think that kind of youth ministry is quite common in evangelical churches where parents are seeking to never let their kids out of their sight.

    If the church isn’t teaching adults how to follow Christ and love their neighbor, teens certainly aren’t going to learn it from their parents or their churches. Youth ministry would be pointless.

  148. okrapod wrote:

    I know I have said this before, but here I go again. Our pastor started out as a youth pastor, and he has done a 10 year follow up on how the kids turned out. He concludes that kids turn out to be like the families they come from–church youth group or not. He has told our church basically these are your kids and your responsibility and we are not hiring a youth pastor.

    That’s very interesting and I am not surprised.

    I wonder if volunteering and serving others may be a better solution than youth ministry. We have this idea of church as a place to go and learn, but Matthew 18 says to be going and making disciples. This idea of insular ministries where everybody is sorted by age and marital status that never leaves the church grounds isn’t working for churches.

  149. ishy wrote:

    This idea of insular ministries where everybody is sorted by age and marital status that never leaves the church grounds isn’t working for churches.

    It’s not working for the Kingdom of God either.

  150. Max wrote:

    We just rolled up our sleeves, loved them, and discipled them in Jesus’ name … perhaps, a youth minister would have done a more professional job.

    I don’t think so. What you did is what ministry is all about. “Go and make disciples.” Literally.

  151. Lea wrote:

    @ ishy:
    There were definitely cliquish aspects to my youth group, and I know the youth pastor(‘s wife, who I’m just going to say was just as much a pastor as he was) noticed, commented and was saddened by it. I think some of it is an extension of high school that most people grown out of and possibly unavoidable. It shouldn’t be encouraged, though.

    I felt the “cliquish aspects” to the youth group I was in growing up. In fact, I remember the youth minister at my church speaking to me exactly ONCE.

    On the other hand, the youth minister at the church we currently attend was *very* involved with my son and has tried to be involved with the other members as well. My son has autism (and he just turned 19 this past Sunday). Our church’s youth minister, and several other adults, met with me right before my son went into the youth group and they said they would do everything they could to help my son participate to the extent possible.

    By the time my son was a senior, he went ALONE to a youth retreat, and the woman who was assigned to him as a “helper” reported, “He didn’t need my help.” I wish more churches were like this.

  152. @ JYJames:
    A sad, but interesting connection to this story. One of the bus captains was a farmer and Sunday School superintendent at the church. A faithful man who truly loved the bus kids and they loved him. He was killed a few years ago in a tragic farm accident. One of the young ladies who came to Christ through the bus ministry stepped into his role as SS superintendent following his death (30 years later).

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