A *Hateful* Blogger Responds to Chris Conlee’s 1/21/18 Sermon at Highpoint Church

I shall never be a heretic; I may err in dispute, but I do not wish to decide anything finally; on the other hand, I am not bound by the opinions of men. Martin Luther link


Martin Luther: The first hateful blogger?

Martin Luther: the original hateful blogger

Take a look at the name of this blog: The Wartburg Watch. I was not a member of the Lutheran Church when I started this blog. Even at that time, I was a great admirer of Martin Luther. Luther spent 10 months hiding out at the Wartburg Castle under an assumed name. From Wikipedia:

From May 1521 to March 1522, Martin Luther stayed at the castle under the name of Junker Jörg (the Knight George), after he had been taken there for his safety at the request of Frederick the Wise following his excommunication by Pope Leo X and his refusal to recant at the Diet of Worms. It was during this period that Luther translated the New Testament from ancient Greek into German in just ten weeks.[4] Luther’s was not the first German translation of the Bible but it quickly became the most well known and most widely circulated.

Luther was one of the world’s first bloggers. He published his 95 Theses also known as Disputation on the Power of indulgences. Within this document was contained the ammunition that would birth the Reformation. When Luther was called before Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at Diet of Worms, he refused to recant.

In the Theses, Luther claimed that the repentance required by Christ in order for sins to be forgiven involves inner spiritual repentance rather than merely external sacramental confession. He argued that indulgences led Christians to avoid true repentance and sorrow for sin, believing that they could forgo it by purchasing an indulgence. They also, according to Luther, discouraged Christians from giving to the poor and performing other acts of mercy, believing that indulgence certificates were more spiritually valuable.

The Holy Roman Emperor viewed Luther as a threat and many feared for his life. He was considered a hateful, dangerous person for merely speaking the truth that entrance to heaven cannot be bought by money.

Mercifully, when Luther was able to move freely, the Gutenberg Press was in full swing. The Economist published How Luther went viral: Five centuries before Facebook and the Arab spring, social media helped bring about the Reformation

The unintentional but rapid spread of the “95 Theses” alerted Luther to the way in which media passed from one person to another could quickly reach a wide audience. “They are printed and circulated far beyond my expectation,” he wrote in March 1518 to a publisher in Nuremberg who had published a German translation of the theses. But writing in scholarly Latin and then translating it into German was not the best way to address the wider public. Luther wrote that he “should have spoken far differently and more distinctly had I known what was going to happen.” For the publication later that month of his “Sermon on Indulgences and Grace”, he switched to German, avoiding regional vocabulary to ensure that his words were intelligible from the Rhineland to Saxony. The pamphlet, an instant hit, is regarded by many as the true starting point of the Reformation.

I love this next part of the article.

The media environment that Luther had shown himself so adept at managing had much in common with today’s online ecosystem of blogs, social networks and discussion threads. It was a decentralised system whose participants took care of distribution, deciding collectively which messages to amplify through sharing and recommendation. Modern media theorists refer to participants in such systems as a “networked public”, rather than an “audience”, since they do more than just consume information. Luther would pass the text of a new pamphlet to a friendly printer (no money changed hands) and then wait for it to ripple through the network of printing centres across Germany.

Sex abuse and the cover up by the church is abusive, hateful and unholy.

The evangelical church responded poorly to the exposure of widespread sex abuse in the Catholic Church. Uneducated people claimed that such abuse was caused because “priests were not allowed to marry” and assumed that there was no such problem in Protestant churches. They were dangerously mistaken. Sex abuse is not caused by celibacy. Sex abuse is caused by people who want power over another individual. Priests didn’t abuse because the were celibate. They abused because they were abusers, asserting power and control over others.

With that knowledge in place, Boz Tchividjian, an attorney and Billy Graham’s grandson and the head of GRACE was quoted as saying:

While comparing evangelicals to Catholics on abuse response, ”I think we are worse,” he said at the Religion Newswriters Association conference, saying too many evangelicals had “sacrificed the souls” of young victims.

“Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics,” said Tchividjian, a grandson of evangelist Billy Graham and executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), which has investigated sex abuse allegations.

What does this mean for evangelicals? It means that we have married abusers in the pulpit who discuss how to have a wonderful marriage while at the same time concealing sex abuse in their background. Married sex does NOT prevent sex abuse. Thy are not the same thing.

In an Psychology Today article Sexual Assault Is About Power: How #MeToo Campaign is Restoring Power to Victims

Despite its name, sexual abuse is more about power than it is about sex. Although the touch may be sexual, the words seductive or intimidating, and the violation physical, when someone rapes, assaults, or harasses, the motivation stems from the perpetrator’s need for dominance and control. In heterosexual and same-sex encounters, sex is the tool used to gain power over another person. And as #MeToo attests with heart-breaking clarity, sexual abuse affects children and adolescents as well.

Far and away, most sexual assaults and sexual violence are perpetrated by men, and typically arise within asymmetrical power dynamics, where the perpetrator occupies a more powerful or dominant position in relation to the victim. Although the vast majority of #MeToo stories describe occurrences within the family, with a classmate, a man on the street, in a bar or at a party – where men assert power bestowed on them by mere virtue of their being men, the events that propelled the recent social media outcry involve powerful, prominent men who use their positions and the perks of their power to seduce, coerce, manipulate, and attack.

In other words, Andy Savage held the power in the relationship with Jules Woodson, a high school student. In case a reader is tempted to say that he was only 22, my response to that is “So all 22 year old professionals assault and have sex with people under their care?” That is despicable and insults every hard working 22 year old out there. Andy Savage did this to Jules Woodson because he held the power and he decided to exercise that power.

Authority figures can unjustly abuse the power of the pulpit and have done so for centuries.

Just like the Holy Roman Emperor misjudged the influence that Luther would have in conjunction with the Gutenberg Press, today’s pastors do the same thing. Blogging took the internet by storm. Suddenly, average people could have a voice and that voice could be effective. Some pastors, enjoying exclusive access to the pulpit’s microphone, were used to controlling the narrative. They would throw in a few Bible verses about submission to church authorities and they had a lock on the discussion.

The mistake that such pastors made was thinking they could utilize the internet to expand their own influence and ministries without getting burned. They thought that they could reach out and say, ” Look at us”  while at the same time controlling what people would see. When a church invites a watching world to look, they cannot control the narrative any longer. That is why I am writing this today. Chris Conlee is NOT going to be the only voice heard in this debate nor should anyone expect him to be.

Are we hateful, irresponsible bloggers or devoted Christians doing the work that Chris Conlee, Andy Savage, Larry Cotton and Steve Bradley should have done?

First, I would suggest that people ask Chris Conlee what he meant by calling us hateful bloggers this last Sunday.

Ask him to spell it out. We simply told Jules’ story. That story, unfortunately, caused people to ask why the people who were told the story did nothing more than say “It was 20 years ago and he has repented. No harm, no foul.”

Ask him what he means that we are not reliable. Prove it. Could he really mean that we don’t buy Savage’s account and all reliable people must do so? Ask him why we should believe it. Is it because Savage is a celebrity pastor and that means he must be believed? Does that mean he would not conceal and obfuscate? Is that what the Gospel tells us?

As for us being irresponsible, let’s take a look at the responsibility demonstrated all 4 men who claim to know the *full story* of the *full monty.*

Ask Conlee if it is loving and responsible that not ONE of these men *full of exemplary integrity* ever reached out to Jules as they skipped merrily on to what some would say are successful ministries. I look at success very differently. Jesus reached out to those who were let down and abused, often by the church of His day. He ate dinner with them, not the Pharisees.

  • Chris Conlee claims he was told the *entire* story about Savage’s organic escapade with Jules.
  • Did he ever say to Savage, “Is she doing OK? Does anyone know?”
  • Did Savage ever express concern for her welfare in the 20 long years after the event? 20 years in which he could have dealt with this. 20 years with apparently doing nothing?
  • Did he call Larry Cotton and Steve Bradley to see if they reached out to her?
  • Did anyone care that she was struggling for every one of those 20 long years?
  • Did anyone try to find her?
  • Did anyone wonder about how her faith was impacted by being ignored?
  • Why did it have to be left up to us *hateful* bloggers to surround her with the love of Christ after Savage ignored her email of December 1, 2017 because so called *wise counsel* advised it? (Message to Savage: Stop blaming this on your wise counsel. This is your fault and they weren’t wise.)
  • Who were the ones who actually showed the courage and concern for Jules?

Chris Conlee seems to have forgotten who the Pharisees were.

The Pharisees were the religious leaders who got the big jobs with the big money and all the book deals and conferences of their day. They were the ones who dressed in expensive robes brought with the money tithed to them. Strangely, they sound a lot like Conlee – throwing the little guy under the bus to save the big guy who can bring in the money. The Pharisees looked at Jesus as the key person who could muck up their little hold on their paradise on earth.

Churches in trouble always tell their people to look out for the bloggers.

We have been blogging since 3/2009. Chris Conlee sounds just like so many pastors caught in a mess doing the same old, same old with the same old manipulative techniques. The first thing they do is blame the bloggers just like the Holy Roman Empire tried to blame their sinful teaching and actions on Martin Luther. “If only Luther wasn’t so hateful, advertising our dirty little secrets, all would be well.” No, it wasn’t Luther who was wrong, it was the church leaders.

Did you know that the Georgia Baptist Convention once made a resolution against blogging, claiming it brought division amongst its members? We wrote about it 2010: Georgia Baptist Convention- It’s the Sin, Stupid! This attempt was roundly derided and totally ignored. It was obvious to everyone that they were merely trying to cover up the sin that was being exposed by blogging. Chris Conlee is stuck in the tired rhetoric of a past decade.

Did Highpoint leadership know that every single church who has been caught in a scandal has tried to blame it on those who discuss the scandal? I bet they did because they used the same old, dusty, ineffective playbook. First, there was the ill-advised, 20 second standing ovation. I predicted they would do this publicly. Instead of being smart, they employed this manipulated maneuver and were scorned by just about everyone looking in. How could they be so dumb?

How could they be so stupid in trying to deflect the blame for their foolish and unloving decisions onto bloggers? This will only haunt them in years to come. If they had done a good job in handling this, they would be shouting it from the rooftops instead of finding someone to blame. This is classic deflection and it means that things are not going very well for them.

Chris Conlee says he is going to fight, just like Jesus.

Oh good night! This is another blast from the past. Mark Driscoll tried to portray Jesus as a bad assed warrior and was banished to Phoenix for his nonsense.

Jesus went to the Cross willingly. He forgave those who hurt him and He didn’t cover up sex abuse. He told us to turn the other cheek. In fact the only time Jesus really got mad was with people (with the religious leaders’ blessings) turning the Temple into a money making venue. Are you feeling that one yet, church?

Chris Conlee doesn’t know us nor does he understand our motivations and that should make his church a bit worried. We have no desire to see the church fail. I happen to love my church. I am convicted and encouraged on a weekly basis due to the wonderful leadership of my two pastors, the vicar, the director of Christian education, etc. I want for Highpoint what I want for every church: that it be a safe church for everyone who attends.  Conlee needs to grow up and ask what bloggers actually want. The fact that he pretends to know is dangerous and a lie.

True motivation: I tweeted that the church might try too do an obligatory standing ovation the day before the first church service after the postings on Savage. I did that in an attempt to inform the church that it would NOT be a smart idea to do so. Conlee and the church leadership plowed forward with decades old, embarrassingly ineffective, ungodly responses. They may have fog machines but they are woefully out of date on how to handle situations like this.

Conlee appears to be stuck in world of his own making. He sees himself as a revolutionary when he is simply a purveyor of worn out tactics to silence those who really care about the church. C’mon, Chris, be a true revolutionary and care for lost, the let down and abused. Reach out to those who won’t give you a standing ovation or give your book better ratings. Emphasize love and compassion in your bio instead of your corporate speeches.

Chris is a gifted communicator in any setting, and he regularly teaches at leadership seminars, Christian conferences, and in the corporate world. His highly acclaimed book, Priority Time: Addicted to God’s Word,

(ed. note: which has one review and today was ranked in at #1,226,650 in Books. Update 9:00PM: I have also been informed that it is self published as well. )

has revolutionized people’s understanding of how to have a “quiet time,” and is a valuable resource for anyone who desires to spend time with God daily through the Word and in prayer.

And whatever you do, do not sound unhinged by…

Comparing bloggers who critique to Satan (or as Amy and I like to call him, Stan.)

Last year, a couple of kooky people called Amy and me “daughters of Stan (sic).” Another similar individual followed with *minions of Satin.* We made the requisite jokes like:

‘My dad was named Walter. He must be spinning in his grave since he didn’t know about Stan.”

“I can’t be a minion of Satin. I only buy wash and wear.”

Do you know how silly this looks? Do you think that we would ever compare Savage or Conlee to Satan? Well, Herman Mehta, The Friendly Atheist, picked this up in Megachurch Leader Scolds Bloggers Who Wrote About Pastor’s Assault of Teen Girl

This really upsets me that an atheist (who is also a really nice guy, by the way) gets the pain of sex abuse more than a pastor who is supposed to be revolutionizing the church to care for the downtrodden.

What Conlee is saying is just jaw-dropping. Yes, the assault was bad, he admits, but so are the people criticizing them.

This isn’t a Trump speech. There are not “some very fine people on both sides.” There’s the pastor who assaulted a teenager, and the people who simply pointed out his feeble and pathetic response, noted the church’s lack of true sympathy for his victim, and posted in-context videos and quotations of what Savage said.

Conlee likened bloggers and critics to Satan by quoting 1 Peter 5:8 (NIV) Bible Gateway.

 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lionlooking for someone to devour.

Mehta made some suggestions and proved, once again, that the church can fall behind the world when it comes to morality.

Admit you screwed up by bringing Savage onto your staff and not telling anyone about what he had done.

Say that you’ll make a significant donation to an organization that works to prevent abuse and takes care of victims.

Launch a sermon series about consent and power and sex, and admit that Christians are no better on these issues than the culture at large, and the idea of “purity” has contributed to the problem.

Thank the bloggers and social media critics for holding you accountable.

None of that made the list. Instead, Conlee cited a Bible verse suggesting those critics (*waves*) are the Devil. We prowl around like a lion seeking someone to devour. And then he emphasized that we weren’t really that strong anyway.

Does this church have anyone at the helm with a moral compass? Maybe they should find one of those instead of wasting everyone’s time acting like the church is the real victim in all this.

Highpoint Church: You are in need of some people to teach you how to handle this situation since it seems like you don’t get how badly your response is going. You can hide in your little Baptist church and stick your fingers in your ears and sing “la la la”,  but eventually you will have to come out and figure out what is going on. Sadly, I believe that your leadership is sorely lacking in common sense as well as in love and compassion for those in pain or these mistakes wouldn’t keep occurring.

500 years ago it was indulgences. Today, sex abuse may well be the defining issue for churches. May God’s gift of the Internet continue to bring forth truth to the church when it becomes hardhearted. May all of us be as bold as Martin Luther when we see the church abuse those who have been let down.

Comments

A *Hateful* Blogger Responds to Chris Conlee’s 1/21/18 Sermon at Highpoint Church — 207 Comments

  1. “For where God built a church, there the Devil would also build a chapel.”
    ― Martin Luther

  2. In many ways, this situation is so weird to me. Savage hasn’t denied the things Jules has said. Conlee says he knew about it all along. Of course, Savage’s story did change from “Yes, I did it and I was wrong” to “She made me do it and it was consensual”.

    In many of the other things we see on here, the truth comes out here or somewhere else first, and the pastor denies, denies, denies. Then others come out, more truth comes out, and it all explodes in their faces.

    These guys have admitted to it all, at one point or another. And they are trying to change the narrative after admitting to the truth.

    I guess the media firestorm really scared them. And the only real repercussion they might face is having to get a normal job. What cowards!

  3. Why does this pastor feel he needs to tell his people WHAT to think? Every single person in the HP congregation has a God-given brain that is able to reason and evaluate information, even if they read it on a blog. Every literate person there can read the Bible for themselves and see how Jesus cared non-stop for those oppressed by the religious elite. The Holy Spirit is active in every believer leading them to LOVE… everyone… especially the victims of abuse (and maybe even bloggers). Why can’t he respect his congregation enough to allow them to think for themselves?

  4. Sex abuse is not caused by celibacy.

    So true! It’s also not caused by singleness or married people who don’t get enough sex. If that’s all you’re looking for, you are going to miss so much.

  5. Mr. Savage admits to a “sexual incident” with a high school girl under his care as a youth pastor … congregation gives standing ovation.

    Mr. Conlee calls other Christians “hateful” who intercede on behalf of the abused … congregation applauds.

    What is wrong with these people?!

  6. Max wrote:

    Mr. Conlee calls other Christians “hateful” who intercede on behalf of the abused … congregation applauds.
    What is wrong with these people?!

    They are being manipulated.

  7. Outstanding post Dee. Please keep pressing forward despite the costs.

    These “men” at HP Memphis keep telling & showing us who they really are. Let them continue to reveal themselves.

    These boys don’t like the internet. They can’t control their sheep if they are allowed to read for themselves. They need qualified “interpreters”. That reminds me of something…

    HP Memphis – some will be heartbroken and dismayed because their beloved pastors are NOT living what they have been preaching. Those things apply to the sheep; not the pastors. Will ask questions but ultimately will leave. Others, not “qualified” to read for themselves, will pat themselves on the back for how righteous they are and how they have not allowed “satan” to break their unity. Will disown those who have questioned.

    Thankful for our electronic Gutenberg press!

  8. Gotta “love” the false equivalency Conlee does. Sexually abusing a teenager 20 years ago is wrong like exposing the dirty deed to the light. Really?! Both are “equally” wrong? Clergy sexual abuse is just as wrong as exposing the cover up?!

    I suggest Conlee get a new moral compass if he really believes this. It is clearly broken.

  9. dee wrote:

    They are being manipulated.

    And the bloggers are being intimidated. Control, manipulation, and intimidation are not fruit of the Spirit.

    Church elders (if there are any with backbone) really need to step into the gap at Highpoint and have Mr. Conlee sit out of the pulpit for a spell. He’s not preaching from a healthy place right now.

  10. You know who was pretty much first on the whole “Internet is a problem and needs to be shut down” thing? Yep, that’d be Scientology. They didn’t like that their sooper sekrit sakrid skripchers (the ones that now cost pretty close to a cool million dollars to read) were being put up on the Internet. Helena Kobrin (hi Helena!) tried to remove alt.religion.scientology from Usenet (using the rmgroup command) in early 1995 because she thought it would fix her problem. Nope, all it did was spread the group, because back in the day, bandwidth on Usenet was extremely limited and sysops didn’t subscribe to any groups unless they were requested. After Kobrin sent out her rmgroup message, I know I contacted a couple of sysops I knew to send newgroup messages, alt.religion.scientology continued to be a problem for the rest of the 1990s, and then it moved to the Web, then YouTube, Facebook and Twitter.

    The moral of the story for Chris Conlee here is this: It wasn’t ex-Scientologists who said “Hey, waitaminute, what are you doing? We’re having a discussion here.” It was free speech nuts, people like me who had discovered how utterly WEIRD Scientology was (but really, we didn’t know how weird, dangerous and downright criminal then) and we were the ones who kept up the discussion for over a decade until Scientologists started leaving in their dozens and hundreds to take up the discussion.

    I am not saying that’s going to happen here, because every situation is different, but eventually the truth comes out. It’s been painful to read the accounts of the young women in court this past week, who have been giving their victim impact statements at the sentencing of Larry Nassar. They’re able to confront Nassar and tell him how they felt. And we know it’s affecting him, because he told the judge he felt like he shouldn’t have to put up with it!

    My point is that when you try to cut off or shut down discussion with “hateful bloggers,” you’re sowing the seeds of your own destruction. It is far better that these things get out and get FIXED than it is to try and stuff down any dissension, because when the explosion comes, it is far, far worse.

    I’m pretty sure, Chris Conlee, that you’re looking for the right moment to bring Andy Savage back. I’m going to tell you here that’s probably not going to be a good thing, because the whole situation with Jules and two decade long coverup WHICH IS STILL CONTINUING is going to blow up in your face. I think you need to look at a post-Savage future for Highpoint Memphis, and maybe a post-Highpoint Memphis future for yourself too. It wasn’t even four years ago when Mars Hill in Seattle looked to be strong and growing stronger, planting in other states, but when the elders told Mark Driscoll to sit down, he refused to do so, and the whole megachurch cratered before the end of 2014.

    There’s a future here for Highpoint, but it has to be charted with honesty, openness and integrity, otherwise people will be looking to see what else is wrong in your cult of personality. Just a thought or two from someone who has been through actual *lawsuits* by litigious attorneys trying to shut down discussion.

  11. If anyone is investigating me, they are going to be so bored. My husband did get a speeding ticket on Sanibel Island in October. That will cause people to sit up and take notice. he also works really long hours but investigator are welcome to see him in his office. His fees are usual and customary. I know it took us until yesterday to get our Christmas flag down so our decorating faux pas will be noted by the always stylish Memphis crowd.

  12. From Dee’s post:

    “Some pastors, enjoying exclusive access to the pulpit’s microphone, were used to controlling the narrative. They would throw in a few Bible verses about submission to church authorities and they had a lock on the discussion.”

    “The mistake that such pastors made was thinking they could utilize the internet to expand their own influence and ministries without getting burned. They thought that they could reach out and say, ‘Look at us’ while at the same time controlling what people would see. When a church invites a watching world to look, they cannot control the narrative any longer.”

    Yes! Hierarchal Applecart upset.

  13. Mary27 wrote:

    Why does this pastor feel he needs to tell his people WHAT to think? Every single person in the HP congregation has a God-given brain that is able to reason and evaluate information, even if they read it on a blog. Every literate person there can read the Bible for themselves and see how Jesus cared non-stop for those oppressed by the religious elite. The Holy Spirit is active in every believer leading them to LOVE… everyone… especially the victims of abuse (and maybe even bloggers). Why can’t he respect his congregation enough to allow them to think for themselves?

    Because they do not seem to believe in Soul Competency, liberty of conscience, Priesthood of All Believers, or the power of the holy spirit to lead the congregation, instead they believe that the sheep (the congregation) must be led by a Priest-King (Preacher) and his loyal sycophants (elders) because the sheep are to dumb and spiritually immature to figure out anything on their own. Though they seem to not understand that the reason that their congregations are full of such spiritually immature people, is because of the shallow teaching and entertainment they are receiving in these churches.

  14. Oh brother. They have learned nothing from this at all. From standing ovation one Sunday to fighting the good fight. They’re only fighting for their now stained reputation at this point.

    People of Memphis, wake up! Don’t stand for this hogwash!

  15. ishy wrote:

    These guys have admitted to it all, at one point or another. And they are trying to change the narrative after admitting to the truth.

    Yes. I was almost impressed that he didn’t deny everything from the beginning although he did minimize. And then that interview…

  16. Conlee: “there are some sources in life that are not reliable or responsible”

    Is Conlee aware of the concept of irony?

  17. Jarrett Edwards wrote:

    they do not seem to believe in Soul Competency, liberty of conscience, Priesthood of All Believers, or the power of the holy spirit to lead the congregation

    Shhhhh … authoritarian church leaders do not want their congregations to know what authentic Christianity looks like. Getting a grasp on Soul Competency and Priesthood of The Believer will set you free!

  18. The thing these people don’t see is that free speech is absolutely fundamental to a societies ability to function. I may think I know the truth, but my ideas get refined and corrected when I speak them to others. My wife has been that person for me when I haven’t had anyone else, and I am eternally in her debt. By speaking, we put our ideas under the light of criticism and this helps us learn.

    Authoritarian regimes have always learned, to their grief, that you can’t make ideas you don’t like go away. You can make them go underground, but that isn’t the same thing. Forcing these discussions underground won’t make dissatisfied people suddenly satisfied in church. Now, thanks to the internet, they can’t egen force the discussion underground. Conlee can tell his people to avoid certain things, but he risks the Streisand effect. That is where Barbara Streisand sued because an environmentalist took pictures of her house that she wanted to be private. Because the pictures became public in the lawsuit, millions of people saw the pictures who would never have if she would have just said nothing. Conlee is driving traffic to the blogs he doesn’t want people to see by 1. Being dishonest, and 2. Telling people not to read the blogs.

  19. Ricco wrote:

    I may think I know the truth, but my ideas get refined and corrected when I speak them to others. My wife has been that person for me when I haven’t had anyone else, and I am eternally in her debt. By speaking, we put our ideas under the light of criticism and this helps us learn.

    Great insight.

    BTW, same here with my husband, and my BFF girlfriends. Put it out there, listen, and grow.

  20. Chris might do well to call up Mac Brunson at FBC Jax and ask his opinion of how HP is handling the Bloggers. So far it sounds textbook. The internet is full of situations like this where some self annoited “pastor/wolf” has told his followers not to read the trashy blogs and only listen to official sources. It has blown up every single time!! Whoever at HP who is monitoring this blog (and I’m positive someone is) you need to get old Chris in to a holy huddle and school him fast or the lesson will be much more painful to everyone involved. Or you could just let him continue to show what sort of ‘christian” he is.

  21. One of your best posts ever, IMHO.

    I’m struck by the parallels of how the post describes the power strategem of sexual abuse and the manner in which Conlee is managing the power of his pulpit.

    Pulling quotes from the quotes:

    – is more about power
    -arise within asymmetrical power dynamics
    -perpetrator occupies a more powerful or dominant position
    – assert power bestowed on them by mere virtue of their being men
    – powerful, prominent men who use their positions and the perks of their power to seduce, coerce, manipulate,
    – need for dominance and control
    – used to gain power over another person.

  22. Would Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Isaiah, Jerimiah, etc, be “hateful bloggers” …… or would they all get a free pass because they are men?

  23. Maybe the bit about the book was a typo — instead of highly acclaimed, it was Highpoint acclaimed?

  24. The language Conlee used in his recent sermon was manipulative and propagandist with his movie metaphor:

    “Do you want us to COMPROMISE and CAVE-IN to the CRITICS?
    {head scratching} Now that I think of it, that doesn’t seem right…

    “Do you want us to QUIT?”
    {head shaking} No, that’s definitely not the right thing for the protagonist of our pretend movie to do…

    “See that’s what the ENEMY wants!”
    {head slapping} Of course! We’ll never let the bad guy win!

    “WHAT YOU WANT US TO DO IS BE PEOPLE OF INCREDIBLE INTEGRITY.”
    {head bowing} This is the only way.

    Can’t wait til the sequel comes out!

  25. Remnant wrote:

    One of your best posts ever, IMHO.

    I’m struck by the parallels

    Agreed. This is an excellent post. And the parallels, well, yes, it is no wonder the leadership (in 3 churches, in 2 states? systemic…) didn’t call out Savage on his shenanigans with youth in his youth group(s), they’re pulling parallel nonsense with those “under” them in the pew. Rooted with the same power/control issues. Set themselves up as icons, and get away with it.

  26. An absolutely brilliant response! Watching Conlee and Savage, it seemed their care and concern was not for the survivor, but for the survival of their platform. After all, the show must go on – it’s something they insist upon!

    But well done to all the caring, compassionate, Christ-like bloggers everywhere. This type of evil needs to be exposed! And it’s clear that people who love power and control don’t love bloggers, because they hate being unable to control the narrative. (I started blogging, anonymously, to tell my story of experiencing bullying and spiritual abuse in my ex-church, and two “pastors” tried to use legal action to intimidate me into silence.)

  27. Rinse, repeat. Sadly, far too many evangelical church leaders are cur from the same cloth and follow the same, tires old routine. Exactly as you have described.

    Blind leaders of the blind.

    Btw, I believe the Friendly Atheist is Hemant Mehta, not Herman.

  28. Ricco wrote:

    Authoritarian regimes have always learned, to their grief, that you can’t make ideas you don’t like go away. You can make them go underground, but that isn’t the same thing. Forcing these discussions underground won’t make dissatisfied people suddenly satisfied in church. Now, thanks to the internet, they can’t egen force the discussion underground.

    There’s always those that still keep trying, though. I think it takes a really special kind of narcissist to believe that you can control everyone around you but they do seem to keep trying. I have them in my family and I know it’s the type of person that is attracted to running these authoritarian churches.

  29. This is the “disclaimer” at the end of the “letter” :
    “This email and its contents are confidential. I know you would never betray me, but just in case let me insert this long disclaimer filled with scary legal terms as if you are my client and I am your lawyer, even though you haven’t agreed to any confidentiality, but perhaps you will think you have because you just opened and read this email.”.
    🙂

  30. @Dee:

    Great Post!!

    The parallels between Luther’s use of the communication tools available during his day and the use of the internet for blogging today are very interesting.

    May the church be blessed with more like you who will seek justice by proclaiming the truth and remaining steadfast. We need more “Here I Stand” moments such as this.

  31. Of course we can’t see behind the scenes but it woukd be comforting if we could—I bet. I have seen how a bit of it might play out in other less serious scenarios. First you have the wagon circling. And that is usually an all out effort when the cult of personality the whole edifice is built on is at stake. If the person is removed for a time it gets tricky because it’s public. As time goes on, it starts to effect others credibility. Then the dude bros are using their phony stage tactics on each other. But, Some are asking themselves: Is Andy worth it? Should we cut our losses and produce a new and more entertaining show? And that is most likely what is worrying Andy at this point. Because that might be what he would do in their place— but in a nice Jesus fake way, of course. .

    That is how shallow, banal and even evil all this cult of personality stuff really is. It’s about saving the money producing fake Jesus org— that isn’t worth saving.

  32. Lydia wrote:

    Then the dude bros are using their phony stage tactics on each other.

    Once you see behind the mask, the stage tactics don’t work.

  33. Raswhiting wrote:

    Conlee is following the well worn playbook for cover-ups. Wade Mullen’s Medium.com has published the playbook to expose those who use it.
    https://medium.com/@wademullen/the-c-m-leon-emails-how-to-cover-up-evil-and-silence-your-accusers-b4ec03b349b9

    The first two pieces of advice to the guilty celebrity pastor:
    “First, I know you’ve done a good job over the years of ingratiating your followers. They love you partly because you say nice things about them, do them favors, and have acted in ways that lead them to believe you are on their side, and their side is the right side. Keep doing that and you’ll continue climbing the ladder. The higher you climb, the more untouchable you will be.
    Second, chances are you’ll survive this because you’ve established yourself as an exemplary model of success. You’ve written books and spoken at countless events. Now people base their own life and work off of you. They will protect you because they see you as their role model. No one wants to find out they’ve been following a phony. It’s not just your identity at stake; theirs is as well.”

  34. Ricco wrote:

    Conlee is driving traffic to the blogs he doesn’t want people to see by .. Telling people not to read the blogs

    Church folks who participate in a standing ovation when their pastor confesses of sexual sin or applauding when another pastor calls Christians hateful for interceding for the abused, are likely to darn well do as they please.

  35. @ Raswhiting:
    “No one wants to find out they’ve been following a phony. It’s not just your identity at stake; theirs is as well.”

    Exactly! They have made an emotional investment in a person (sometimes it’s even a dead person!) and that is the hardest thing in the world to admit when reality is staring back.

  36. mitch wrote:

    Whoever at HP who is monitoring this blog (and I’m positive someone is) you need to get old Chris in to a holy huddle and school him fast or the lesson will be much more painful to everyone involved.

    If you are the senior pastor of the church and CEO of the corporation, does anyone have the authority to tell you to calm down? Without having to submit to a higher authority, who helps identify your blind spots? In cults of personality, all the power in the church resides with you. If you have no system in place in your church to receive healthy criticism or turn away outsiders who do (e.g., Christian bloggers), you are pretty much on your own to dig a deeper hole.

    I suspect that Highpoint’s primary “brand” rests with Andy Savage, not Chris Conlee … the brand is in danger. Mr. Conlee is trying to hold it together as a leader, but after a while he’ll lose all objectivity and his sermons will get meaner as he assumes a more defensive stand. This is a major problem in cults of personality. When the church brand is based on an individual and the individual gets in trouble, the brand and the church based on it dies (e.g. Driscoll/Mars Hill). Churches which raise the Name of Jesus above all names survive the storm; those who don’t fade into obscurity.

  37. The Holy Roman Emperor viewed Luther as a threat and many feared for his life. He was considered a hateful, dangerous person for merely speaking the truth that entrance to heaven cannot be bought by money.

    16th Century Prosperity Gospel — “Just Send Your Seed Money To My Ministry and Wait for The Blessing!” Ken Copeland and Robert Tilton would be proud. TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!

    The evangelical church responded poorly to the exposure of widespread sex abuse in the Catholic Church.

    “I THANK THEE, LOOOOOORD, THAT I AM NOTHING LIKE THOSE FILTHY ROMISH PAPISTS OVER THERE!!!!!”

    Chris Conlee says he is going to fight, just like Jesus.

    Not “Chris Conlee says he IS Jesus”? He’s claiming Omnipotence and Omnipresence seeing deep in to the hearts of those Satanic Bloggers…

    I’ve heard it said that Christianity goes through a major shakeup every 500 years or so.
    Remember all the “500th Anniversary of The Reformation” hoopla last October?
    Looks like we’re due for another major shakeup.

  38. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I’m pretty sure, Chris Conlee, that you’re looking for the right moment to bring Andy Savage back. I’m going to tell you here that’s probably not going to be a good thing, because the whole situation with Jules and two decade long coverup WHICH IS STILL CONTINUING is going to blow up in your face. I think you need to look at a post-Savage future for Highpoint Memphis, and maybe a post-Highpoint Memphis future for yourself too.

    My thought is that with what “character” that Conlee has showed with all of this maybe Highpoint needs to be looking at a future without both Conlee and Savage.

  39. Steve240 wrote:

    maybe Highpoint needs to be looking at a future without both Conlee and Savage

    In cults of personality, there is no Highpoint without Conlee and Savage. It didn’t work for Mars Hill when Driscoll left the scene.

  40. @ Max:
    It does make you wonder if, when selecting a church, one should reject all that do not have a long history, with multiple pastors.

  41. Raswhiting wrote:

    Conlee is following the well worn playbook for cover-ups. Wade Mullen’s Medium.com has published the playbook to expose those who use it.
    https://medium.com/@wademullen/the-c-m-leon-emails-how-to-cover-up-evil-and-silence-your-accusers-b4ec03b349b9

    Here is another list of possible tactics:

    https://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/

    One doesn’t even have to be one of the personality types used to use this tactic.

  42. @ The other deb:

    “…will pat themselves on the back for how righteous they are and how they have not allowed “satan” to break their unity. Will disown those who have questioned.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    “unity”…..

    how many times have i seen churches blame the devil and demons for their own stupidity. and those holding them accountable for their wrong doing are evil agents of division and destruction.

    pastors reframe the issue as spiritual attack against “unity”, and of course the reason for the attack is that they are so spiritually effective and highly strategic for God.

    “oh the pressure… the spiritual attack… if you only knew…. I’M the victim, here…….no, wait — i’m the HERO!”

  43. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I’ve heard it said that Christianity goes through a major shakeup every 500 years or so.

    I read that somewhere. Hard to define a trend on 3 data points: 500 AD, 1,000 AD, and 1,500 AD. That’s not to say we aren’t due a shake up but I wouldn’t base that conclusion on the calendar alone.

  44. Lea wrote:

    @ Max:
    It does make you wonder if, when selecting a church, one should reject all that do not have a long history, with multiple pastors.

    It would at least demonstate staying power.

    Max wrote:

    In cults of personality, there is no Highpoint without Conlee and Savage. It didn’t work for Mars Hill when Driscoll left the scene.

    It’s rare for a Joseph Smith to be succeeded by a Brigham Young who can turn his ad hoc personality cult into a self-sustaining system. Much more likely is total disintegration when The Founder/Leader dies or leaves. (And sometimes The Founder/Leader makes sure his personality cult does not outlive him — remember Jonestown and/or Heaven’s Gate?)

  45. Max wrote:

    Steve240 wrote:
    maybe Highpoint needs to be looking at a future without both Conlee and Savage
    In cults of personality, there is no Highpoint without Conlee and Savage. It didn’t work for Mars Hill when Driscoll left the scene.

    Which proved the larger point it was built on cult of personality all along.

  46. Lea wrote:

    It does make you wonder if, when selecting a church, one should reject all that do not have a long history, with multiple pastors.

    Selecting a church in America has become a challenge period! In some churches with congregational polity, powerful families and demon-deacons eat up preachers one after another. In some churches with elder-rule, autocrats are on the throne forever. Finding authentic Christianity in the menu of churches has become near impossible. I favor looking for a church which: (1) raises the Name of Jesus above all names, (2) preaches a Gospel of the Cross of Christ which offers salvation to ALL people, (3) equips believers to do the work of the ministry, (4) engages the whole Body of Christ in the Great Commission, with their individual spiritual gifts, and (5) has a leadership that loves Jesus more than themselves. Such churches, of course, are like looking for a needle in a haystack in the 21st century American church … there’s too much working against the real deal.

  47. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    You know who was pretty much first on the whole “Internet is a problem and needs to be shut down” thing? Yep, that’d be Scientology. They didn’t like that their sooper sekrit sakrid skripchers (the ones that now cost pretty close to a cool million dollars to read) were being put up on the Internet.

    “Sooper Sekrit Sacred SCRIPTUREs” as in “R6 Bank Images” and “The Wall of Fire Implant” (AKA Galactic Emperor Xenu)?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4SBfhRmvzU
    (Could’t find the South Park version online…)

    When your Church reminds people of “Just like Scientology!”, that’s NOT a good sign.

  48. Lydia wrote:

    Which proved the larger point it was built on cult of personality all along.
    (re: Mars Hill / Driscoll)

    When 1st century church pastors were crucified on crosses and displayed on the road to Rome, their churches continued because the presence of God was still in their midst to carry them through troubled times. Throughout the ages, the Church has been its best when it was persecuted … not for defending a brand or a pet theology, but for standing for Christ at all costs.

  49. Conlee is now to my mind a joke. Attack the messenger! It is obvious now, as ends up being the case always in these things. “Follow the money”. You have attacked the cash cow. Therefore you have to be destroyed if possible. The fact that it isn’t going to happen, just will not enter there heads. Down this church will go. They are paying for good legal advise, but that will not keep people in the seats giving money. Women and hopefully some good men, are just not going to put up with this nonsense. There will be an mass exodus, in my opinion.

  50. I would remind Conlee and the movers and shakers at Highpoint Memphis about a particular applicable story from the Bible. It’s from Jeremiah 36, where Jeremiah received a prophecy from the Lord, Baruch wrote it down, took it to the palace and finally to King Jehoaikim, who didn’t like what was said and burned it in a firewood. The Lord told Jeremiah to write down the prophecy again and it ultimately didn’t go well for the king.

    Not saying the Deebs are prophetesses, but this event is worth thinking about.

  51. Robert M wrote:

    Meanwhile Jesus is standing at the door of the church and knocking, asking to be let in.

    And Pastor has called the cops (including the off-duty cops with the cream-puff Church Security jobs).

  52. Ken A wrote:

    Conlee is now to my mind a joke. Attack the messenger! It is obvious now, as ends up being the case always in these things. “Follow the money”. You have attacked the cash cow. Therefore you have to be destroyed if possible.

    In the words of the prophet Steve Taylor:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1TCDwCN-KE

    They are paying for good legal advice, but that will not keep people in the seats giving money.

    But it will make the lawyers big $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

  53. @ Lowlandseer:
    Very interesting, but wow does this part disturb me regarding an abusive father:

    “My father hadn’t changed much, but my mom was following Jesus and wanted to love others,” says Conlee. “I remember her telling me that marrying my father again might be the only chance he had of meeting Jesus.”

  54. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It’s rare for a Joseph Smith to be succeeded by a Brigham Young who can turn his ad hoc personality cult into a self-sustaining system.

    With the passing of Papa Chuck, Calvary Chapel has found itself in this pickle big time.

  55. Conlee is accustomed to people holding him in high regard: applauding his “wisdom”, giving him money to speak, buying his books, esteeming his character. He deserves the acclamation!

    He doesn’t know how to respond to the current state of affairs where the world doesn’t hold him in high esteem.

    The only possible explanation he can find is that this must be Satan because, to him, duh, reasonable people acknowledge his greatness.

  56. elastigirl wrote:

    how many times have i seen churches blame the devil and demons for their own stupidity. and those holding them accountable for their wrong doing are evil agents of division and destruction.

    The Medievals used to blame the Jews for poisoning the wells when it was their own idiocy which caused raw sewage runoff to find its way into the clean water supply.

  57. “Chris Conlee says he is going to fight, just like Jesus”

    I realize this may not be same but the results will be… Someone might want to remind him about the Streisand effect.

  58. Dee wrote ‘”minions of Satin”
    Hell-low again! Satin here! Thanks for the free PR. Speaking of which, those low-point guys shoulda got themselves a better PR firm. And that Savage fellow probababelly didn’t get despired (opposite of inspired) to do the organic mutual incident by my people, And he didn’t learn that particular method of sexual assault by reading his Bible. More likely it was the 3 PR’s of Pronogaphy, Prostitutes, or President I did not have sex with that woman.
    Let me make one thing perfectly clear– I did not despire any hateful bloggers. In fact, —- hold on a sec—
    Could you throw me a towel, please?
    Where was I– oh yeah– in fact, I personally hardly despire ANYONE anymore. Far too— hang on again–
    I’d like a Pina Colada, please, with an extra large umbrella. Hot today, isn’t it.
    Sorry about that. Way, way, way too BUSY!
    But I’m sure some minion in our Memphis department came up with the mutual organic stuff, and especially the oft-repeated 20 years ago idea. Seems like forever! Probably so long ago it never happened at all! Have to give him a promotion. If my Memphis minion reads this, kindly send me an email and I’ll get back to you in 4-6 weeks. We promises.

  59. Satin wrote:

    Hell-low again! Satin here! Thanks for the free PR.

    “Please allow me to introduce myself
    I’m a man of wealth and taste…”

  60. Divorce Minister wrote:

    Gotta “love” the false equivalency Conlee does. Sexually abusing a teenager 20 years ago is wrong like exposing the dirty deed to the light. Really?! Both are “equally” wrong? Clergy sexual abuse is just as wrong as exposing the cover up?!
    I suggest Conlee get a new moral compass if he really believes this. It is clearly broken.

    Conlee needs to be broken first. His pride and arrogance is in the way of the Holy Spirit.

  61. ION: Tennis

    So, the first Slam of the year is well underway. Wee Kyle Edmund is through to his first Grand Slam semi-final (indeed, his first semi-final of any kind on tour) but, sadly, Rafa is out injured. It’s only his second retirement in 264 grand slam matches, I gather. The other two mens’ quarters are tonight (or, as they say at the time of writing in Melbourne, “today”). Fed vs Berdych and two surprise newish guys… including the wee laddie who knocked out Novak Djokovic. The other question… will Liverpool fan and sometime world number 1 Caroline Wozniacki finally make it in a Slam? She will if she can win two more matches.

    IHTIH

  62. Raswhiting wrote:

    This is the “disclaimer” at the end of the “letter” :
    “This email and its contents are confidential. I know you would never betray me, but just in case let me insert this long disclaimer filled with scary legal terms as if you are my client and I am your lawyer, even though you haven’t agreed to any confidentiality, but perhaps you will think you have because you just opened and read this email.”.

    Btilliant!

  63. Lydia wrote:

    Of course we can’t see behind the scenes but it woukd be comforting if we could—I bet. I have seen how a bit of it might play out in other less serious scenarios. First you have the wagon circling. And that is usually an all out effort when the cult of personality the whole edifice is built on is at stake. If the person is removed for a time it gets tricky because it’s public. As time goes on, it starts to effect others credibility. Then the dude bros are using their phony stage tactics on each other. But, Some are asking themselves: Is Andy worth it? Should we cut our losses and produce a new and more entertaining show? And that is most likely what is worrying Andy at this point. Because that might be what he would do in their place— but in a nice Jesus fake way, of course. .
    That is how shallow, banal and even evil all this cult of personality stuff really is. It’s about saving the money producing fake Jesus org— that isn’t worth saving.

    I see that possibility also. What will Chris do wth Andy?

    Pass the popcorn….

  64. @ Muff Potter:

    elastigirl wrote: how many times have i seen churches blame the devil and demons for their own stupidity. and those holding them accountable for their wrong doing are evil agents of division and destruction.

    Muff wrote: The Medievals used to blame the Jews for poisoning the wells when it was their own idiocy which caused raw sewage runoff to find its way into the clean water supply.
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    “my dog ate my homework!”

    “Twinkies made me pull the trigger!”

    “who, me? what? why am i holding this apple that has a bite taken out of it? it was her! she made me do it!”

    human nature, it seems.

    but, of course “Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above.” (Rose to Charlie, in The African Queen)

    and good grief, i’ve had more than enough of those who brand themselves as role models and leaders hiding behind human nature as a defense.

    when will christian adults raise the level expectations for themselves and others?!

  65. Injun Joe wrote:

    Satin wrote:
    Hell-low again! Satin here! Thanks for the free PR.
    “Please allow me to introduce myself
    I’m a man of wealth and taste…”

    I saw Stan laughing with delight the day the music died…

  66. Well, I wouldn’t recommend Conlee’s book.

    From the expert: “A priority time is a daily, unhurried, inspired time to read the Word of God to know the God of the Word. If you apply this truth, you will replace impure addictions with pure addictions and ultimately become a compulsively devoted follower of God. You will be addicted to loving God, loving people and making disciples.”

    From Chapter 1 (available thru Amazon’s Look Inside preview): “How did I overcome my addiction to sin? How can you overcome your addiction to sin? The only way to overcome an addiction is to replace it with one that is grater. I must replace my addiction to the world with an addiction to the Word. I must replace my addiction to sin with an addiction to God. My story of recovery isn’t the story of recovery. It is the story of a greater addiction.”

    From the Forward, written by Savage: “You’re fellow addict,”.

    This says a lot. He’s replacing one addiction for a “greater” addiction. This is a terrible view of what the Scriptures are to us. They are sweet as honey but convicting as a sword. A way of life, peace to us, faith to us, love to us. But not an addiction. Does God want us to love and worship Him, or be addicted to Him. When Jesus sought out quiet time to pray to His Father, did He do so out of love and fellowship, an intimate relationship, or He was merely addicted and couldn’t help Himself.

    I feel for the people under Conlee’s teaching. What little I’ve heard, he’s taken the Word out of context to justify his desires, vs. studying to find what it really being taught. He’s using God’s Word for his purposes and his congregation will suffer.

  67. Lisa wrote:

    I must replace my addiction to the world with an addiction to the Word. I must replace my addiction to sin with an addiction to God. My story of recovery isn’t the story of recovery. It is the story of a greater addiction.”

    Addiction seems a deeply unhealthy way to think of relating to God and Christian living…

  68. Thersites wrote:

    Conlee: “there are some sources in life that are not reliable or responsible”

    Is Conlee aware of the concept of irony?

    As I read this quote in the original, I was reminded of the playground chant: I am rubber, you are glue….

    In this case, Conlee, of course, is playing the role of the glue.

  69. Heather wrote:

    “WHAT YOU WANT US TO DO IS BE PEOPLE OF INCREDIBLE INTEGRITY.”

    Yes, Chris. Demonstrated by owning your failures, apologising and resigning your position.

  70. @ Lea:
    I agree. Being “addicted to God’s word” is a really weird way to tell someone to read their bible. What if you are addicted and you loose your bible and it takes you a while to get a new one. Will you go through withdrawal?

  71. Lisa wrote:

    This says a lot. He’s replacing one addiction for a “greater” addiction. This is a terrible view of what the Scriptures are to us.

    No repentance, no salvation here …… simply trading one crutch for another.

  72. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    ION: Tennis

    So, the first Slam of the year is well underway. Wee Kyle Edmund is through to his first Grand Slam semi-final (indeed, his first semi-final of any kind on tour) but, sadly, Rafa is out injured. It’s only his second retirement in 264 grand slam matches, I gather. The other two mens’ quarters are tonight (or, as they say at the time of writing in Melbourne, “today”). Fed vs Berdych and two surprise newish guys… including the wee laddie who knocked out Novak Djokovic. The other question… will Liverpool fan and sometime world number 1 Caroline Wozniacki finally make it in a Slam? She will if she can win two more matches.

    IHTIH

    I watched the match and initially went “Kyle who?”. Should have been “our” Nick playing Kyle but he wasn’t good enuff to get past the Bulgarian dude.

    Now that Rafa and Novak are both out, I’m barracking for someone – anyone – other than the Fed. Cilic, are you listening? Maybe one of the new guys can give the Fed a whupping?

  73. Lowlandseer wrote:

    For anyone interested, this is a detailed bio of Chris Conlee. It raises many questions, particularly regarding who founded Highpoint.

    http://www.outreachmagazine.com/features/25901-healing-wounds-one-pastors-journey.html

    Having read the posted article, makes me think I understand what is going on a bit more. This is someone who grew up in what frankly was an abusive home. It sounds like his mother forgave his father but we do not know -there is no evidence presented-that his father was held accountable for any of his abuses. And of course Dad was a beloved nice guy in the community. (A lot of abusers are, for the record.) Maybe Chris thinks forgiveness is just pretending bad things did not happen. JUst forgetting about them. Maybe he has never seen real accountability modeled. Maybe he really really thinks he is doing right by Andy by *putting the past in the past* He would not be the first to think that way.

    My pastor has taught us that before we can forgive anyone truly, we have to face up to the totality of the sin they have committed against us. Not make light of it. Because only when we see the totality of the debt can we truly forgive. And it is not shallow foregiveness.

    Maybe Andy really has repented. I do not know. I know that 20 years ago the situation was horribly mishandled. Maybe Chris really feels that God expects them to forget about what happened to Jules. But the issue is that undealt with situations fester until they possibly can cause a spiritual gangrene. It would not surprise me if Chris himself has unhealed wounds from his upbringing that have never ever been healed yet.

    Just because someone is a pastor of a large church does not automatically mean they know what to do in a situation or that they will always act wisely when presented with such a situation. It does not even mean they are spiritually healthy. And the worst thing about it is that most of the time we feel that pastors do not need healing and that if they show any weakness at all they need to quit being pastors-when the truth is the best ones, like the best therapists, deal with their stuff on an ongoing basis.

    I am not going to throw a rock at this church but what I would like to see is a true reckoning. I would want to make totally sure that Andy has not done anything else like this ever again-altho tbh I agree with all that say he should have been disqualified 20 years ago. I would want to know just how he dealt with the character problems that allowed him to do what he did to Jules because I am sorry, this does not just up and disappear without having been dealt with.

    PS -and this is not just for this one church-I think the character quality of humility is one that has not been highlighted in a lot of the church in general for a long time. If we do not humble ourselves God has ways to do the job for us.

    And that is all I am going to say about that.

  74. bunny wrote:

    I know that 20 years ago the situation was horribly mishandled.

    This has been a critical element for me in this whole sad saga. Pastors protecting other pastors who fail is a systemic problem in certain corners of Christendom. If this had been handled properly in Texas, Memphis wouldn’t be having to deal with this and the church at large having to suffer reproach once again from the world.

  75. Remnant wrote:

    He doesn’t know how to respond to the current state of affairs where the world doesn’t hold him in high esteem.

    This definitely hits the nail on the head. Many of these guys have absolutely no genuine relationships outside of their christian bubble, so are clueless as to how they come across.bunny wrote:

    Maybe Chris thinks forgiveness is just pretending bad things did not happen. JUst forgetting about them. Maybe he has never seen real accountability modeled. Maybe he really really thinks he is doing right by Andy by *putting the past in the past* He would not be the first to think that way.

    Wise words.

  76. Muff Potter wrote:

    With the passing of Papa Chuck, Calvary Chapel has found itself in this pickle big time.

    Have the daggers and vials of poison come out yet?

    There Can Be Only One, and The Tithes Must Flow.

  77. Maybe if your husband didn’t work such long hours, you wouldn’t be such a bitter trash talking feminist

    Close down this rag sheet, and feed the poor, visit the sick, spread the gospel

  78. ___

    “Heavenly Dreamin’ On Such A Winter’s Day…”

    hmmm…

    Scripturally Jesus’ church is people, who physically gather together in His name, who have this in common: trusting and believing in Him to saved them. They love God, love their neighbor, honor the holy scriptures; delighting in them, share His story with others, and they await the promise of His coming. (1)

    When you enter the premises of a 501(c)3 non-profit organization it can very well be quite a different story, and the experience possibly presents a different outcome.

    (sadface)

    Sòpy

    (1)John 3:16, 2 COR 5:17, Psalm 1, Luke 21:34-36, Matt 18:20

    ;~)

    – –

  79. __

    “Be Sêêing You?”

    hmmm…

    TWW’s blogging to date is primarily identified with the abuse victims of abusive religious men in a 501(c)3 non-profit organizational setting.

    Reverend Conlee’s 501(c)3 pulpit, on the other hand, as of this date, is perceptively identified with a religious associate sporting a checkered past and his personal response to it’s wide discovery.

    It is kind of hard to be objective when the whole world is laughing at you…

    ;~)

    – –

  80. I love everyone wrote:

    Maybe if your husband didn’t work such long hours, you wouldn’t be such a bitter trash talking feminist

    Close down this rag sheet, and feed the poor, visit the sick, spread the gospel

    Your moniker certainly does not fit your nasty comment!

    What makes you believe that Dee and Deb don’t feed the poor, visit the sick and spread the gospel?

  81. I love everyone wrote:

    Maybe if your husband didn’t work such long hours, you wouldn’t be such a bitter trash talking feminist

    Close down this rag sheet, and feed the poor, visit the sick, spread the gospel

    Really? That’s the best you’ve got? Personal attacks?

    I’m sure there are days when Dee and Deb would love to close this site, and focus on their busy lives. This is a sacrifice. They are spending money on this blog, not making it. I can’t imagine how much time this blog consumes.

    Why do they keep doing it? It’s not that they need something to fill their empty lives. Or the need to express their “feminism.” But they can answer that question.

    Personally, I’m very thankful for what they do.

  82. Sòpwith wrote:

    ___
    “Heavenly Dreamin’ On Such A Winter’s Day…”
    hmmm…
    Scripturally Jesus’ church is people, who physically gather together in His name, who have this in common: trusting and believing in Him to saved them. They love God, love their neighbor, honor the holy scriptures; delighting in them, share His story with others, and they await the promise of His coming. (1)
    When you enter the premises of a 501(c)3 non-profit organization it can very well be quite a different story, and the experience possibly presents a different outcome.
    (sadface)
    Sòpy

    (1)John 3:16, 2 COR 5:17, Psalm 1, Luke 21:34-36, Matt 18:20
    ;~)
    – –

    It would appear that the 501 non profits are gaining strength and numbers.

    But Jesus said that wherever two or more were gatherd He would be in their midst. I take comfort in that.

    Sadly, great numbers at the non profits have not heard the true gospel.

  83. @ bunny:
    A lot of these guys have really intense backgrounds. I’m afraid Chris may have learned the wrong lessons, though.

  84. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    I’m sure there are days when Dee and Deb would love to close this site, and focus on their busy lives. This is a sacrifice.

    No, this is a ministry. A real one. People miss it because they don’t expect it to come from women, online.

  85. Lea wrote:

    No, this is a ministry. A real one.

    Exactly, and it’s a ministry to many people who have been marginalized by modern Christianity. Or who have been abused in that context, and need a safe place and a voice. And the fact that it’s online, and it’s run by [gasp!] women makes it hard for people to see it as a real ministry.

    I guess that, in some sense, all real ministry involves sacrifice.

    My point is, Dee and Deb weren’t sitting around the house one day, waiting for their hubbies to get home after a long day at the office, and just thought they would start a blog to fill their spare time.

    And it’s probably not a good idea to try debating “I love everyone” types.

  86. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    And it’s probably not a good idea to try debating “I love everyone” types.

    True. But sometimes it’s good to point out their poor reasoning and logic, for onlookers.

    For instance, I always find it fascinating when people say something like ‘why aren’t you feeding the poor/doing good works/etc, instead of talking online’. As if those things are mutually exclusive? As if the person also responding online spends every waking moment doing those things? Such a silly criticism.

  87. Lea wrote:

    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
    And it’s probably not a good idea to try debating “I love everyone” types.
    True. But sometimes it’s good to point out their poor reasoning and logic, for onlookers.
    For instance, I always find it fascinating when people say something like ‘why aren’t you feeding the poor/doing good works/etc, instead of talking online’. As if those things are mutually exclusive? As if the person also responding online spends every waking moment doing those things? Such a silly criticism.

    Their assumptions truly are fascinating. Remembering that old Enjoli perfume commercial, “i can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, etc” It was supposed to represent the modern woman of the 70’s. Today’s woman can blog, go to the gym, help in their child’s classroom, and work at the Food Bank. And it’s often done quietly.

    The criticisms keep coming in from the Perfect Love crowd…..

  88. Mercy wrote:

    The criticisms keep coming in from the Perfect Love crowd….

    Or, maybe the “Love Works” crowd.

  89. I love everyone wrote:

    Maybe if your husband didn’t work such long hours, you wouldn’t be such a bitter trash talking feminist
    Close down this rag sheet, and feed the poor, visit the sick, spread the gospel

    My husband is my biggest fan. In fact, it is his hard work that pays the bills for this blog since we do not take advertisements. I want people to know that we do this out of compassion for abuse in the church and we do not make one thin dime in doing so.

    He works long hours caring for the sick. He cares for a number of patients who cannot afford health care through Project Access. I am sorry that you are so ill educated that you do not understand the sacrifices that physicians make for their calling.

    I do not understand why you say I am bitter and trash talking. Why don’t you demonstrate your IQ by documenting this like I do? Also, your use of the word *bitter* is old timey Baptist talk. I have nothing to be bitter about. Do you?

    What is your definition of a feminist?

    Now, I wonder how much you have done to care for the poor. You obviously are a Highpoint bot who just showed up so why do’t you read this and reconsider your silly comment. In fact, would you donate to the charity that I started to care of the poor? Also, I spent two years working on the Navajo Reservation and spent years tutoring low income children through groups such as Mission Raleigh. I would be happy to compare my efforts in caring for the poor with yours. I look forward to receiving your list of accomplishments in that area,.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/12/18/tww-initiative-help-us-bring-vital-health-care-directly-to-actual-victims-of-human-trafficking/

  90. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Have the daggers and vials of poison come out yet?

    They may as well. Word on the street has it that the court intrigue at Costa Mesa (CC’s flagship ‘campus’ and their own Geneva) rivals that of Medici Italy.

  91. dee wrote:

    What is your definition of a feminist?

    My guess: Anyone who doesn’t idolize Andy Savage.

  92. Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Have the daggers and vials of poison come out yet?

    They may as well. Word on the street has it that the court intrigue at Costa Mesa (CC’s flagship ‘campus’ and their own Geneva) rivals that of Medici Italy.

    Let the Game of Thrones begin.
    There can be only One.

    “A crown based on lies,
    You Win or you Die,
    Game of Thrones…””

  93. It will be interesting to see how all of this affects the attendance and income coming in at Highpoint. Does anyone have any information on how their attendance has done these last few weeks? I imagine the only thing that will get their attention will be reduced attendance and especially reduced contributions.

  94. Lea wrote:

    For instance, I always find it fascinating when people say something like ‘why aren’t you feeding the poor/doing good works/etc, instead of talking online’. As if those things are mutually exclusive? As if the person also responding online spends every waking moment doing those things?

    It’s just the Righteous counting coup against the Unrighteous. Again.

    “I THANK THEE, LOOOOOOOOOOORD, THAT I AM NOTHING LIKE…”

  95. Lea wrote:

    @ bunny:
    A lot of these guys have really intense backgrounds.

    If “intense” means what I think it means, so do a lot of the guys in Comics, Anime, and Furry Fandoms.

  96. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    You should read the article. Abusive dad, mom took him back three times, the last time ‘even though he hadn’t change, she thought it would save him’? He remarried them twice. Brother died young, tried to take his place in golf but wasn’t good enough, and so decided to preach. Really messy.

  97. Ken P. wrote:

    Cymru am byth!

    Well, yes, but – historically – Liverpool is the capital of north Wales.

    I don’t know what that’s about, mind you.

  98. Now, back to Conlee/Andy/HP response. With the Nassar trial going it’s really hard not to draw parallels, even though that was a different case, between the responses to the girls when reporting.

    Even now, after having plead guilty and heard 160ish impact statements, I read that a letter from Nassar says, “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” and accusers are “seeking media attention & financial reward.”

    This is the SAME response I have seen from so many highpoint defenders.

    On the SBC voices article, one man made a statement that youth pastors should not be left alone with girls and women because they might “FALSELY ACCUSE” them. Even with an admission from Andy he said this!!! That is his chief concern in church, not the protection of vulnerable young girls and women, not for the decency of church personnel which honestly should be a given but is absolutely not,? Until this stupidity is fixed, women, children and any other vulnerable person, will never be safe in these systems. Never.

  99. I love everyone wrote:

    Maybe if your husband didn’t work such long hours, you wouldn’t be such a bitter trash talking feminist
    Close down this rag sheet, and feed the poor, visit the sick, spread the gospel

    Beautiful – a man after my own heart. After all, didn’t Jesus say we should love everyone?

    God bless,

    Arnold Dummarse

  100. I love everyone wrote:

    Maybe if your husband didn’t work such long hours, you wouldn’t be such a bitter trash talking feminist
    Close down this rag sheet, and feed the poor, visit the sick, spread the gospel

    Finally, someone’s talking sense. It’s the wife in Proverbs 31 who works the long hours so her husband can blog, like Mr Love Everyone here. But I wouldn’t expect anyone here to know that.

    You’re all rubbish.

    Up Yours,

    Roger Bombast

  101. Lea wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    You should read the article. Abusive dad, mom took him back three times, the last time ‘even though he hadn’t change, she thought it would save him’? He remarried them twice. Brother died young, tried to take his place in golf but wasn’t good enough, and so decided to preach. Really messy.

    Who marries their ex twice after the first divorce?
    I learned much about Chris Conlee. I believe in a gracious and merciful God who transforms us into His image. But goodness gracious, poor Conlee… no wonder he doesn’t understand. Don’t know if he ever will.

  102. I love everyone wrote:

    feed the poor, visit the sick, spread the gospel

    You are on the right track. Jesus took up for the most vulnerable and stood against those whose religious standing empowered them authority. Giving a voice to someone who has been abused by the clergy, as Dee has done here, is 100% consistent with the spirit of Matthew 25.

  103. @ Lowlandseer:
    I think so much of this sort of advice is based on externalities, avoiding women, avoid flirting, avoid lustful thoughts, avoid ‘materials’, etc. Which makes it easy to blame those externals when something happens.

    When what they should really be focused on is respecting women as whole people, respecting and loving your wife truly, too much to hurt her, and respecting other women too much to hurt *them*.

    Even if he had followed his own advice, his advice is bad.

  104. Lea wrote:

    You should read the article. Abusive dad, mom took him back three times, the last time ‘even though he hadn’t change, she thought it would save him’? He remarried them twice. Brother died young, tried to take his place in golf but wasn’t good enough, and so decided to preach. Really messy.

    I wonder if the mother was influenced by 1 Corinthians 7:14, “the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife.” Too much magical thinking about scripture.

  105. @ Lea:

    Well, that was a scary insight into the mind of a mega pastor. The first piece of advise was the worst.

  106. ___

    In A Nutshell: “The Wartburg Watch Blog, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    If two women at their own initiative, expertise, expenses, and time, use the internet to kindly and graciously help individuals without cost that have been abused in an 501(c)3 Christian church organizational environment, why then are few ordained pastors and their staff lending their support, assistance, and good cheer?

    (sadface)

    Sòpy

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UivbhZ4X-qA

    ;~)

    – –

  107. Lea wrote:

    I think so much of this sort of advice is based on externalities, avoiding women, avoid flirting, avoid lustful thoughts, avoid ‘materials’, etc. Which makes it easy to blame those externals when something happens.

    It’s all about sin management rather than heart change. If you do all the right things, you’re good to go. We shouldn’t ask about the stinky smell around that whitewashed tomb or notice that his actions are not lining up what what he says.

    Lea wrote:

    On the SBC voices article, one man made a statement that youth pastors should not be left alone with girls and women because they might “FALSELY ACCUSE” them.

    “Everyone knows” that women and girls are just out to get these poor youth pastors with their false accusations of impropriety and get them out of ministry. The distrust of women and girls is sometimes palpable in these places.

    After the past couple of church experiences, I’ve got a way of quickly telling whether a pastor is safe or not. If they start spouting Christianese when I ask about their advice to women or children who have suffered abuse, they aren’t safe. If they thoughtfully engage and come up with support and empathy for those who have been abused, they are safe. And, if they ask you if you feel safe, it’s a huge red flag.

  108. Kari wrote:

    “Everyone knows” that women and girls are just out to get these poor youth pastors with their false accusations of impropriety and get them out of ministry. The distrust of women and girls is sometimes palpable in these places.

    Like a cross between Taliban-level Islam.

    Or a particulary-nasty cartoon meme (which I’ve heard was done to both Mark Driscoll and grimdark comics artist Frank Miller): a portrait of the subject with a thought balloon going(“Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores Whores…”)

  109. I love everyone wrote:

    Maybe if your husband didn’t work such long hours, you wouldn’t be such a bitter trash talking feminist

    Close down this rag sheet, and feed the poor, visit the sick, spread the gospel

    Woah!
    So you named your pet taipan “everyone”? Very gospelly indeed.

  110. Lea wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    You should read the article. Abusive dad, mom took him back three times, the last time ‘even though he hadn’t change, she thought it would save him’? He remarried them twice. Brother died young, tried to take his place in golf but wasn’t good enough, and so decided to preach. Really messy.

    That’s the kind of “intense” background I’ve come across in furry fandom.
    Not just “messy”, but a background that can really screw up someone’s head.

    Let me get this straight:
    “Tried to take his place in golf” as in preaching was a second choice after professional golfer?

  111. Bridget wrote:

    What makes you believe that Dee and Deb don’t feed the poor, visit the sick and spread the gospel?

    The Arrogance of The Righteous(TM).

  112. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Let me get this straight:
    “Tried to take his place in golf” as in preaching was a second choice after professional golfer?

    I skimmed the article, but the brother was better and he was trying to take his place at urging of dad is the way I read it. I know nothing about golf aside from it’s really good television to nap to though so maybe I missed a nuance.

    I don’t think your past defines you, but the way he talked about it may tell us something. I saw little condemnation of dad/support or protection of Mom, for instance, that I might expect here. Idk.

  113. Bridget wrote:

    feed the poor, visit the sick and spread the gospel

    … and toss in some reproof and rebuke for those who walk contrary to their calling in Christ.

  114. Yes, NPR mentioned the Andy Savage story while I was driving home tonight. The standing ovation is really getting a lot of heat. Too bad that Wartburg Watch didn’t get a mention on NPR!

  115. Mercy wrote:

    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Mercy wrote:
    The criticisms keep coming in from the Perfect Love crowd….
    Or, maybe the “Love Works” crowd.

    Yes. I prefer to call them The Fake Love crowd.

    Love Works. Just struck me in a totally different way. They love works! They are in love with works!

    Now… how did Jesus put it? (See Matthew 23, for starters.)

  116. I get it, disagree with the Dee and you will get banned

    I hope you feel self satisfied knowing that the 25 people who follow your little blog think you are a saint.

    Toughen up

    MOD: Read my reply to this.

  117. I get it, disagree with the Dee and you will get banned

    I hope you feel self satisfied knowing that the 25 people who follow your little blog think you are a saint.

    Toughen up

    MOD: Read my reply to this.

  118. Former Fundy wrote:

    NPR mentioned the Andy Savage story while I was driving home tonight. The standing ovation is really getting a lot of heat.

    The piece was aired on NPR’s “All Things Considered” program, which has over 15 million weekly listeners. Add that to the coverage by major TV networks and leading newspapers across the country, this poor testimony of the Church has received lots of attention. Most have keyed in on the poor way this “incident” was handled by church leaders for 20 years, and promotion of an abuser with little disregard for the victim … and of course the tacky standing ovation. As Ed Stetzer said “Andy Savage’s standing ovation was heard around the world. Because it was wrong.” I wonder if the folks at Highpoint understand this yet.

  119. dee wrote:

    Max wrote:

    Mr. Conlee calls other Christians “hateful” who intercede on behalf of the abused … congregation applauds.
    What is wrong with these people?!

    They are being manipulated.

    The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. Authoritative pastors dream of having church congregations which trust every word, every decision, every action. If you are a good communicator, you can control and manipulate the outcome of just about anything. The only way an individual sheep can keep from going over the cliff is to veer sharply to the right just before the flock gets to the edge.

  120. Sorry to but in, but could anyone reading this post pray for me. I’m in a bad situation right now.

  121. Sam wrote:

    Sorry to but in, but could anyone reading this post pray for me. I’m in a bad situation right now.

    I’ve had the feeling now the last few years that God doesn’t listen to me pray, but maybe God listens if I pray for someone else, so I prayed for you, that God comfort you through whatever it is you’re going through now and resolve it in your favor.

    I hope everything is okay or works out okay for you.

  122. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Mercy wrote:
    The criticisms keep coming in from the Perfect Love crowd….

    Or, maybe the “Love Works” crowd.

    Or the Righteous(TM) crowd?

    So the ‘Self’ is silent before ‘Righteous’?

  123. Daisy wrote:

    Sam wrote:
    Sorry to but in, but could anyone reading this post pray for me. I’m in a bad situation right now.
    I’ve had the feeling now the last few years that God doesn’t listen to me pray, but maybe God listens if I pray for someone else, so I prayed for you, that God comfort you through whatever it is you’re going through now and resolve it in your favor.

    Luke 18 has given me comfort: “Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not lose heart.” The parable of the persistent widow follows. That it is a woman in a societal status seen as disadvantaged is a worthwhile aspect to note, especially as she faces an unjust authority holding sway over her case.

  124. Max wrote:

    The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.

    I think it may be HUG that who pointed out the concept to me that it is easier to con someone than to convince someone they are being conned.

    The deceiver often puffs you up while the voice of reason has to contend with overcoming your pride. It is a hard thing to admit you were fooled, it is even harder if you have invested untold time, energy, and resources into a bad investment. This must be another reason that humility is so important, a humble person can more readily admit their error.

  125. @ I love everyone:

    Judgenoone wrote:

    I get it, disagree with the Dee and you will get banned

    I hope you feel self satisfied knowing that the 25 people who follow your little blog think you are a saint.

    Toughen up

    MOD: Read my reply to this.

    Hmm. We have between 3000 and 4000 unique visitors a day on a typical day. Hasn’t been below 3000 in a long time. And while I haven’t taken a count I figure that at least 10% or more disagree with Dee a lot. 40% some of the time.

    What WILL get you banned is being a jerk. Want to make a point, make it. Want to call people names for not acting how you want them to do so? Start a blog. You CAN do it for free.

    Oh, yeah. Trying to post comments from multiple IP addresses and names doesn’t help your cause. At least with us.

  126. JDV wrote:

    Raving fans

    Raving fans of Jesus would be nice. They certainly would not take improprieties with a teen girl in their youth group.

  127. @ Max:
    The NPR story – I heard it earlier today, too, on “All Things Considered”.

    Thanks to Jules Woodson, Dee and Deb, as well as Watchkeep’s Amy Smith. Bravo, ladies, you have brought #MeToo into the Evangelical realm. About time. God bless you all! And may God keep you and your families in the palm of His Mighty Hand. This is a watershed moment.

  128. @ Judgenoone:
    There are balancing texts in the Bible on judging, it is not as simple as “do not judge”. There are also demands that we do not stay silent in the face of injustice and there are warnings about false prophets and that we should use judgement. Paul even commended people who verified what he was preaching.

    Your posts here are not a good advertisement for Andy Savage’s teaching if he is your “teaching pastor”.

  129. Judgenoone, I Love Everyone, et al
    Proverbs 17:15
    He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

  130. @kari
    “It’s all about sin management rather than heart change. If you do all the right things, you’re good to go. We shouldn’t ask about the stinky smell around that whitewashed tomb or notice that his actions are not lining up what what he says.”

    Yes. My ex knew all about that.

  131. Thersites wrote:

    Max wrote:

    The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.

    I think it may be HUG that who pointed out the concept to me that it is easier to con someone than to convince someone they are being conned.

    The deceiver often puffs you up while the voice of reason has to contend with overcoming your pride. It is a hard thing to admit you were fooled, it is even harder if you have invested untold time, energy, and resources into a bad investment. This must be another reason that humility is so important, a humble person can more readily admit their error.

    That is an excellent point, Thersites. Those who have been deceived often appear to be able to deny the obvious.

  132. Thersites wrote:

    It is a hard thing to admit you were fooled, it is even harder if you have invested untold time, energy, and resources into a bad investment.

    I drove by a church sign yesterday that said “Church is Cool” … try selling that to the persecuted church throughout the world! Millions in America invest in cool church, which offers very little return in eternal terms.

  133. Thersites wrote:

    There are balancing texts in the Bible on judging, it is not as simple as “do not judge”. There are also demands that we do not stay silent in the face of injustice and there are warnings about false prophets and that we should use judgement. Paul even commended people who verified what he was preaching.

    1 Corinthians 5 comes to mind. Paraphrasing: “I’ve heard you’ve got one member who is carrying on with his father’s wife, and you are proud of this?” The only reason I can think of the Corinthians might be proud is because they treated grace too cheaply.

  134. Max wrote:

    I drove by a church sign yesterday that said “Church is Cool” …

    Sure that shouldn’t be spelled “KEWL!”?

  135. JDV wrote:

    Raving fans too often equates to echo chamber, and the subsidy of them from the sheep via Kingdom-dedicated funds.

    “Raving fans” as in:

    “See His Face! Hear His Voice! Fuehrer! Fuehrer! Fuehrer!”
    — Leon Uris, Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin, describing a Nuremberg Rally

  136. Max wrote:

    The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. Authoritative pastors dream of having church congregations which trust every word, every decision, every action.

    i.e. they dream of being The Antichrist.
    (Or at least Kim Jong-Un.)

  137. If Luther was one of the world’s first bloggers, then he said some remarkably prescient things about the current debate about Andy Savage who described his actions as a”sexual incident” and not assault.

    In his response to the first papal bull (Exsurge Domine) condemning many of his 95 theses and inviting him to recant, our valiant blogger Martin said this

    “”It is an outrage that cannot be tolerated that men should do such violence to God’s Word and call that a defect which God calls sin. The whole Scripture could be enfeebled by saying that the word, “sin,” wherever it occurs means, “defect.” Then nothing would be sin anymore, but merely a defect or a weakness. Who would then prevent anyone from saying that adultery, murder, and robbery are only “defects” and “weaknesses,” but not sin? To be sure, they are defects and weaknesses, but they are sinful defects and weaknesses, which must be healed through grace.” (Response to Second article, Defence and Explanation of All the Articles, 1521; volume 32 of Luther’s Works)

    I’m beginning to think Lutheranism is the place to be. Unfortunately they have only one church in Scotland (two if you count a German speaking congregation that meets monthly in Edinburgh)

  138. I love everyone wrote:

    Maybe if your husband didn’t work such long hours, you wouldn’t be such a bitter trash talking feminist

    Close down this rag sheet, and feed the poor, visit the sick, spread the gospel

    Here’s a love offering for you, it appears you forgot them in your posts -> ….

  139. I just heard from a member of HP that a group of members had independently hired someone to investigate the situation. Specifically, this individual/group is NOT from the Ft. Worth law firm hired by HP, Canty Hanger. Does anyone know who this individual/group is?

  140. anonymous wrote:

    I just heard from a member of HP that a group of members had independently hired someone to investigate the situation. Specifically, this individual/group is NOT from the Ft. Worth law firm hired by HP, Canty Hanger. Does anyone know who this individual/group is?

    I will refer this on and see if I can get an answer for you. Please feel free to contact me via email. That email will be held in strict confidence.

  141. I love everyone wrote:

    I get it, disagree with the Dee and you will get banned
    I hope you feel self satisfied knowing that the 25 people who follow your little blog think you are a saint.
    Toughen up
    MOD: Read me reply to this.

    ROFL!!!!!!!!!!

  142. @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
    Excellent thoughts.

    I am a HP member. I no longer attend and will be looking for a new church home. This has been incredibly heartbreaking because under this poor leadership are swarms of wonderful loving people. I suspect many will stay for a time, mostly because this has been so shocking that it is hard to accept as it truly is. It is difficult to break those bonds of unity and also bias. It is my hope that once the emotions die down a little, common sense will prevail.

    These are two men that demanded “double honor” last year in a sermon series. They used the Bible to teach that aspect of Scripture but for some reason are now silent on requirements for leadership that would make them due such double honor. Is more expected of leadership or not?

    Andy was young and had terrible counsel. However, that does not change the following issues:

    He was a leader. A teacher. A pastor. He STILL posts his failed time at that Texas church as some kind of success on his background. Hmmm… Does his time there count or not?

    He has endorsed the poor mentoring he was under calling it “wise counsel.” Uh, NO. If he thinks that, then what has changed?

    He may have gifts of a teacher, but per Scripture, he most likely forfeited his potential as a pastor per Scriptural requirements.

    Even for those whose hearts break for what his family is enduring and feel he is a changed man, whose understanding are you leaning upon? I think the Bible is clear.

    Chris has broken hearts as I cannot deny his desperate attempts to manipulate his church family. He sets out with the defense and attack above, but doesn’t seem to understand the problem isn’t applying Scripture, it is misapplying it a picking and choosing what will be addressed. Such poor leadership. So deaf to the people around the world demanding justice and improvement. Chris should be putting the victims and the church and its reputation before Andy. Andy should be doing the same. That is at least what humble leadership would do.

    There have been some mean people scattered about in comments but most of what I see are people seeking to protect others and insisting that the church behave itself at least as well as those outside of it.

    I hope no one here lets up the pressure to stop abuse. I hope people do not retreat from demanding more from HP. I hope somehow through your work, you manage to save it. I think they are counting on things dying down before reinstating Andy. May that not happen and may Chris step down as well so that church can continue the good work.

  143. @ Joan:
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Joan. This must be a very difficult time for many at HP. It truly is a choice between Jesus and men, between standing for the truth and saving face.

  144. Listening to KCBS radio in San Francisco Bay Area. They are doing a report with someone named Neil J Young on Andy Savage , the pressure to forgive particularly leaders who sexually sin abuse and the implications.

  145. Chris Conlee truly believes he is the anointed one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzj3MaOf_EM

    52:02 “So let me share with you some prophetic words that I believe gifted men and women have spoken into my life since 2016, predominantly in 2017.

    … in the fall of 2016, Russ Parker … prayed over my life and blessed me with this. He said, “You are doing the right thing. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. The Lord gives you visions from him, and He will take you further than you can imagine. Listen to this. You are doing the right thing. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.“

    And the reason that is so significant and important is because I AM a visionary. God is constantly downloading visions. I’m constantly trying to evaluate to make sure those are from the Lord or not. And he [Russ] was speaking into the giftedness that exists in me.

    In the Spring of 2017, Russ was here. He was with us, and during that time he prayed this over me.

    “You have God’s special favor at this time. Bless your locations as holy ground. Bless your buildings as holy places. This is not hard work, this is God’s work. This is going to be a place of encounter. This is the place where people will come to know Jesus without even hearing sermons.”

    …In the summer of 2017, this woman prophesied over me, and she put her hands on my shoulders, and said, “God is all over you. I could feel the heat coming off your body. He gave me a picture of a fire spreading from the south to the north and from the east to the west. This is going to be a fire that spreads through you from coast to coast.”

    In the summer of 2017 I’m in London and I have dinner with Russ Parker and his wife, Roz, and he blessed me and prayed over me, and said,

    “God bless you with a deepening unity and God’s purposes in your life for just this moment. Chris, God give you wisdom and discernment about what, what’s worth putting down in order to take hold of the new that he’s bringing to you. I bless you, Chris, with an increasing sense of destiny because I do sense God is going to take you on a ministry role beyond Highpoint Church, not apart from it, beyond Highpoint Church, not to recreate it in other places, but (watch this), but to actually be an evangelist to wounded churches, so they can heal, grow and develop. God is going to put gifts in you to give away. May God bless you, to know where and when that is to be done.”

    [Chris, to congregation]: You can’t be an evangelist to heal wounded churches if you lose the battle. Since this is a spiritual battle, it’s going to be won spiritually, and since it’s spiritual warfare, the enemy is, the enemy has never won that and God has always won.

  146. Forrest wrote:

    I’m convinced that Conlee is more dangerous than Savage.

    Well, most of Christendom is certainly disagreeing with the way Mr. Conlee is handling things. He has now become the primary focus of the mess, while Mr. Savage is on leave. Surely, there must be some “wise counsel” in Memphis that could advise Mr. Conlee in this regard.

  147. Max wrote:

    Forrest wrote:

    I’m convinced that Conlee is more dangerous than Savage.

    Well, most of Christendom is certainly disagreeing with the way Mr. Conlee is handling things. He has now become the primary focus of the mess, while Mr. Savage is on leave. Surely, there must be some “wise counsel” in Memphis that could advise Mr. Conlee in this regard.

    He would be well advised to be very careful as to which “wise counsel” he listens to.

  148. Mercy wrote:

    @ Connie:
    Pompous, prideful, deluded, dangerous man…….

    I was struck by the fact that Chris couldn’t stand up and say to his church, “I will do the right thing.” He needed Russ Parker to say it for him. He couldn’t say to his church, “I am trustworthy. I am strong” He played a recording of an anonymous woman to say it for him. (see 1:02:45 in the video).

    He even undermined his own endorsements by introducing the mostly anonymous group of men and women (plus Russ Parker) whose “prophetic words” he shared, by describing them as “I believe, gifted men and women,” leaving the impression that their giftedness is a matter of perception. He later made a random observation that the prayer organization where he went to be prophesied over by two women who have never met him has the acronym IHOP. (‘Cause nothing inspires confidence like equating prophesies with pancakes).

    Pride and pomposity are in the mix, but I came away with more a sense of emotional instability and desperation. (Dangerous, but to whom?)

    Is Chris being forced out of his own organization?

  149. Connie wrote:

    Mercy wrote:
    @ Connie:
    Pompous, prideful, deluded, dangerous man…….
    I was struck by the fact that Chris couldn’t stand up and say to his church, “I will do the right thing.” He needed Russ Parker to say it for him. He couldn’t say to his church, “I am trustworthy. I am strong” He played a recording of an anonymous woman to say it for him. (see 1:02:45 in the video).
    He even undermined his own endorsements by introducing the mostly anonymous group of men and women (plus Russ Parker) whose “prophetic words” he shared, by describing them as “I believe, gifted men and women,” leaving the impression that their giftedness is a matter of perception. He later made a random observation that the prayer organization where he went to be prophesied over by two women who have never met him has the acronym IHOP. (‘Cause nothing inspires confidence like equating prophesies with pancakes).
    Pride and pomposity are in the mix, but I came away with more a sense of emotional instability and desperation. (Dangerous, but to whom?)
    Is Chris being forced out of his own organization?

    Any professed leader, especially one who appears to be highly successful, is leading people astray and away from the true Jesus, perhaps away from genuine sAlvation. I would consider that to be extremely dangerous. If he is emotionally unstable and desperate he really has no business behind the pulpit.
    Chris Conlee would appear to be using Andy Savage’s sin to bolster his own reputation and church. What an evil con man! He needs to be forced out immediately.

  150. Forrest wrote:

    He would be well advised to be very careful as to which “wise counsel” he listens to.

    Well, there’s “wise” counsel and then there’s “WISE” counsel. One must have enough discernment to know the difference. Depending on which counselors he sits under may very well determine the destiny of Mr.Conlee’s ministry and the future of Highpoint. There is little evidence that he is under “WISE” counsel currently. WISE spiritual counselors don’t tell you what you want to hear; they tell you what you need to hear as the Spirit leads.

  151. On the LOCAL CBS news affiliate at 6:00 pm this evening, the top news story was demonstrators at HP. How do I Post this without bothering Jules? How does one start a new topic? While I regularly use an iPad, I’m clueless about how to go about doing this and keeping my email private? Thank you for your help.

  152. Frances wrote:

    On the LOCAL CBS news affiliate at 6:00 pm this evening, the top news story was demonstrators at HP. How do I Post this without bothering Jules? How does one start a new topic? While I regularly use an iPad, I’m clueless about how to go about doing this and keeping my email private? Thank you for your help.

    Story here…
    http://wreg.com/2018/01/29/church-sexual-abuse-survivors-call-for-firing-of-pastor-andy-savage/

    It seems that HP has made a statement…

    In response to the protest, Highpoint Church released a statement to WREG this afternoon:
    “What happened to Jules Woodson 20 years ago in Texas was not only wrong but a violation of trust placed in church leaders. We are very sorry for the pain she has suffered…”

  153. Thank you, Forrest. Is it possible to start a new stream with this on the Wartburg Watch? I’m not tech savvy. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

  154. Frances wrote:

    Thank you, Forrest. Is it possible to start a new stream with this on the Wartburg Watch? I’m not tech savvy. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

    As this is a blog site, only the site owners can start new topics. We can then comment on the articles posted.

  155. This is the last WW thread on Highpoint, so I’m bringing today’s sermon excerpt here.

    On a high note, Russ Parker is easy to listen to.

    On a low note, the conspiracy theories abound.

    “You must not let your leaders be in isolation when trouble comes. You must not assume that all is well for them and say, “well, it’s on their watch, therefore it’s their responsibility. You’ve got my support, in some kind of distant way.”

    1:06:45 … and if you have a fight in this church, then it belongs to all of you. Yes? [Sparse audience response]. You’re far too quiet for me. Yes? I hope this is not boring you. But you know far too many leaders go down not because they haven’t got faith and abilities but because they’re too lonely and not supported enough. I’ve seen great ones go down totally unnecessarily, because we don’t think it’s our place. And part of battle, you know, is to assure that you cover your leader’s back. You cover his wife’s back and his children’s back [sic]. I’ve run into far too many churches in my ministry and seen that the sickness in the church is far too much in the pastor’s house, because there’s some kind of isolation and we’ve not gone in this together. I’ve spent lots of my time saying to churches, “when did you last pray with your leaders? When did they last know by contact that you’re for them?”

    I can ask you the obvious. “Are you for your leaders in this church at this time? Are you?” [Audience: Yes, yes, applause] “Are you?”

    1:15:56 Thirdly, Jehoshaphat, as he’s preparing to say “How do we respond to this fight?” pronounces the power of God and the deeds of God. “Are you not the God of heaven? Yes. Did you not defeat our enemies? Yes. Did you not bring us to this place to be the people of God? Yes you did. And if that’s what you did, the whoever threatens our right to be the people that we are hasn’t got a battle with us, they’ve got a battle with God.”

    That’s why the man had to stand up and say, “Just in case you think this is about you; just in case you think the enemy’s doing this because your career is too successful, or whatever it is, it’s not about you. It’s actually attacking the purposes of God.
    You have the honor of representing that if you’re a leader or otherwise, but Satan actually has a bigger purpose than making us feel bad about ourselves, it’s to try and destroy what God has done.

    Which is why, incidentally, it strengthens our faith to say the obvious: “Did you not build this church, Jesus? Did you not call Highpoint in existence for a purpose to reach people who at the moment have not yet been reached—,” or whatever the reason is, are you not building ministries that go round the globe from this place?”

    So whoever comes in like a flood against us is coming in against because they see what God is doing in this place.”

  156. Relating Jehoshaphat’s dilemma to HP) Parker says:

    1:18:51…The fifth one is he [Jehoshaphat] focused on God. He didn’t talk about the size of the enemy, he didn’t talk about his opinions of: “How dare they do this? What must be going on in them, that they come up with this stuff?” He doesn’t spend any time trying to understand the motivations of the enemy, he just keeps his focus on God, who does understand the motives of the enemy.

    End quote.

  157. I am dismayed to see that the new “Going Public” videos at HPMemphis feature children. Nothing says “we are the church that doesn’t exploit children” like exploiting children.