Amy Smith (Watch Keep) Kept It Classy as Ben Ferguson Demonstrated How to Be One Angry Man

“Never annoy an inspirational author or you will become the poison in her pen and the villian in every one of her books.” ― Shannon L. Alder link

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On Monday, January 15, 2O18, Andy Savage appeared on the Ben Ferguson Show. I was grateful that Ferguson admitted, up front, that he had attended Highpoint Church and knew Andy Savage on a friendly basis. That made it much easier for me to listen to the original broadcast. There were moments that, had I been an interviewer, I would have asked for more in-depth explanations. However, I blew it off because Ferguson was an admirer of Savage. These cream puff, kissy face interviews are given all the time on talk shows.

However, when the interview got posted, there were several minutes of the show that were deleted. In fact, I thought I has remembered Savage’s admission that he did not inform Germantown Baptist Church, the next church that hired him, of his organic experience with Jules. I was startled that the admission seemed to be missing.

Here is a link to the show with all of the deleted parts intact.

Amy Smith and her source worked diligently to prove that minutes from the interview were missing.

Amy Smith and her anonymous source did a word by word analysis of Andy Savage’s original transcript/audio on the Ben Ferguson Show with the one later released by the show. They found that, indeed, there were deleted portions of the show. She then went public with her transcript.

Here are the parts of that show which were deleted and my assessment as to why they were important.

The *young girl* faux pas.

This omitted statement is important because, throughout the interview, Savage appeared to be saying that Jules was an adult, who at the age of 17, consented to this organic escapade. However, at the beginning of the show, Ferguson claimed she was a young girl which seemed a bit awkward given Savage’s narrative. I tweeted this concern to Ferguson in light of his *apology* and did not see a response.

BF: “All right, welcome back, it is the Ben Ferguson Show, um, Andy Savage, Highpoint Church, who is on with me today, um, and we are talking about, um, this issue, where a young girl in Texas, 17 at the time, um, has come out and said that 1) the church didn’t handle this correctly… ”

The “I’ve been redeemed, um, uh”

Savage did not tell us what he meant by openness and transparency. We had reason to suspect that, in fact, he had not fully briefed some key people like his next employer, Germantown Baptist Church. In fact, he appeared to say that he had been *very willing* to share, a statement that I found suspect.

AS: “Um, uh, Ben, I did resign, um, when this happened. Twenty years ago, I resigned my position, I stepped away from ministry completely, for a season, um, and I engaged a redemptive process in my life. Uh, I maintained relationships, uh, with key pastors and counselors in my life, I maintained relationships with, uh, transparency, and uh, openness with people, uh, that uh, were trustworthy leaders in my life, uh, and I have rebuilt a life where I have changed, um, to the degree that the lessons I learned through this experience, um, allow me to help people in a way, um, that I-I never would have any other-other way.”

BF: “A lot of people are saying the only reason why you’ve been able to help people, and again, I say this bluntly, because I think it’s important, because you didn’t fully disclose this to the membership at Germantown [Baptist Church] when you were there, the membership at Highpoint [Church] when you were there. That this has been somewhat omitted from your ministry. Is that, is that a fair, way to put it, because a lot of people found out about this, that there was even an incident in Texas, because of a newspaper article, or they came to church on Sunday morning.”

AS: “I have, uh, over the years, been very willing to share, um …”

He admitted that, in fact, he did not tell the *entire congregation* and that he offered to resign from Highpoint.

In this segment he repeated this stupid Highpoint meme “The perfect place for imperfect people.”  Yes, we all sin but we do not all molest students in our ministries. There are some sins that should be disqualifiers for ministry. There are also some sins that need to be reported to the police.

This is NOT a case of Susie gossiping with Betty Lou. This is far more serious. Sexual abuse can have life long consequences for the victim. However, Savage is living proof that some men can do these things and get on with their lives, never going back to their past to attempt to mitigate the damage done by their choice to take advantage of their position as a Youth Pastor.

Had this been reported to the police when it happened, I am willing to wager that Savage would not be a pastor today.

AS: “As opportunity would, uh, would deem helpful. Um, uh, but, but no, I did not, uh, broadcast this information to the entire congregation.”

BF: “Are you sorry for that, to, to the, to – and I say this, forget everybody else, I’m talking about the people at the church, are you sorry that you didn’t be more transparent? Do you feel like you misled them by, by not broadcasting this, as part of your story?”

AS: “No, I believe I was honest and transparent with the leadership at Highpoint, um, and I think that was, uh, the right place for that information to exist.”

BF: “Let’s talk about the-the real issue, and that is, there are um, people that have started petitions to get you to force you out, to resign. Um, there are people that think that honestly you should be dead, uh, milder than that, there are people think you should be in jail. Um, if I was sitting in, y’know, in the chair you’re in right now, I think there’s a large part of me that would think, ‘Why don’t I just resign, and just go away?’ Um have you thought about resigning in the last week since all this became so public, where it’s on the front pages of literally every newspaper in the country?”

AS: “Yes. On several occasions in the last few days, I have wanted to quit.”

BF: ‘Have you offered your resignation?”

AS: “I did.”

BF: “When?”

AS: “On, uh, Sunday [January 7, 2018], I offered to Chris [Conlee] that I would resign, if that was in the best interest of our church”

BF: “What did he say to you then? I mean, because most people would think that it was a ‘no brainer’ um, you have all this turmoil, and you’re resigning. Yes, I’ll take that resignation and run with it.”

AS: “That would certainly be the easy thing to do. I cannot speak for him. I can speak about him. Uh, Chris [Conlee] and the leadership at our church, uh, believe, uh, what we have said, since we started the church, we believe in a perfect place for imperfect people. Um, we believe, that, um…”

Amy Smith at Watchkeep, along with the rest of us who are victims’ advocates, work hard to tell the truth.

Many people do not understand how hard we have to work on these stories. There are hundreds of people who would like to prove that we are all a *pack of liars.” Ferguson must have been unable to believe that anyone would actually spend the time to check his interview. Amy did the grunt, tedious work to make sure she didn’t post something that was wrong.

I admire Amy. She is a woman of truth who deeply cares about victims. She would never jeopardize her good name by deliberately posting a lie. Neither would we. The keepers of the status quo have tried for years to get her, and the rest of us, shut down. But, as our friend, Jeff Anderson, the famous attorney who has successfully sued the Roman Catholic Church for almost a billion dollars, says. “Always tell the truth as you understand it.” We do and so does Amy. Standing ovation for her hard work.

Ferguson’s response was unbecoming as a gentleman, a commentator for CNN, and proves he has a serious anger management problem.

Frankly, I was startled by the following tweets. Yes, I know this was a kissy face interview by an admiring Ben Ferguson but I never thought he would do the following.

The first lie told by Ferguson. In fact, he does allow editing as you will hear.

Ferguson threatened Amy, stating that she is spreading a *deviant lie.*

Ferguson stated again that Amy made a false claim.

He accused Amy of slander, the last bastion of the disingenuous.

Ferguson called her a liar and pulled the Christian card while he was demonstrating how not to respond as a Christian.

And., once again, Ferguson employed the favorite words of Christian leaders who hide information: slander and defamation of character. He didn’t understand that Amy DID her research and that he is the one who didn’t exert himself to figure it out.

Being the real man that he is, Ferguson had to blame this all on his producer when he was proven wrong by a patient Amy Smith.

Ferguson discovered that Amy had done the hard work to prove her allegations. On his next broadcast, he threw his producer under the bus and then posted the real interview. Here is his apology.

Amy Smith explained why these deleted portions were vitally important to the narrative.

The deletion of the comments discussing Andy’s restoration process is significant.

Many readers may not be aware of the process, since it is generally not made public.  It may help church members to understand and ask how has Andy Savage legitimately been restored to ministry?

After a major fall involving sexual misconduct with a flock member some churches will choose to pursue restoration.  Biblically, they should not, because the Pastor can never again be above reproach, but many still do.  But there are high standards before a restoration can take place.

1) After such a major violation of trust, the restoration process would be both lengthy and rigorous.  Andy could not have gone through it at Woodlands Parkway Baptist Church, because he left the Woodlands and returned to Memphis at the conclusion of the investigation.  WPBC had no further spiritual authority over Andy.  They are also 570 miles away from Germantown.  It would be up to Andy’s home church of Germantown Baptist (GBC) to oversee his restoration and future conduct.

2) Andy states that he did not tell anyone at GBC about the “incident”.  His excuse was “they never asked”.  Regardless of the excuse, Andy’s claim is that no one at GBC leadership knew of his sin/crimes.

3)  Even if someone at WPBC had offered oversight for restoration, this process could not be completed without them speaking to Andy’s then current home church, GBC.  It is imperative to the restoration process that the church with the spiritual authority over Andy be in charge of the oversight process.  Having some “mysterious” unnamed wise men speaking into his life is not a restoration process.

4)  Andy could not have completed his restoration process and have continued to conceal his sin/crimes to GBC while simultaneously becoming a pastor at GBC.  This is an extremely egregious concealment as it gravely endangered the young members of the flock there.  No true wise counselor or godly pastor overseeing Andy’s restoration would have ever gone along with this concealment as part of the restoration.  They would have demanded to speak with GBC leadership before Andy returned to ministry, to ensure that safeguards would be in place for the good of all involved.

5) How could Andy have received spiritual restoration from Chris Conlee,  the one man in Memphis who claims he knew about Andy’s sin/crimes upon is return to the city. Chris didn’t become a pastor until he planted Highpoint in 2002. Up until then, Chris was pursuing a career in golf. http://www.highpointmemphis.com/chris-conlee

I have asked Ben Ferguson to apologize via twitter, the medium in which he chose to *defame* Amy Smith in a particularly foul manner. His loathsome Tweets remain on his feed as of the writing of this sentence. (I have screen shots….. Can you believe that I have to take screen shots for proof in case someone goes off on a temper tantrum?)

My thoughts on the matter

I now know that, at the minimum, I cannot trust anything I hear Ben Ferguson say since it is possible his producer is running around deleting things and Ferguson is too busy to check but not too busy to attempt to go on a diatribe against an innocent woman.

At the minimum, Ferguson needs a lesson on what the Bible has to say about slander. I wrote a post called Slander or an Inconvenient Truth? It could be helpful.

Update one a rumor

A rumor is flying around that Andy Savage was not a Youth Pastor in any official way that would be recognized by the state of Texas. Seriously? You mean this Andy Savage who brags about being a young Youth Pastor on his website?

Everybody at the church called him a Youth Pastor, and he was presented as such. Now, they are going to say “Fooled you, didn’t we?” That will be received as well as the standing ovation, he was only 22, and she wanted it. Don’t be stupid.

Comments

Amy Smith (Watch Keep) Kept It Classy as Ben Ferguson Demonstrated How to Be One Angry Man — 360 Comments

  1. Oh Ben Ferguson, a.k.a. BF.
    You really are a BF of Savage, willing to lie for your friend and attack women who call you out for you lies.
    Sorry dude. Ranting and raving like lunatic doesn’t my your version the truth. It just makes you a ranting, raving lunatic.

  2. Ben is an arrogant man who thought he could just yell ‘lie’ and ‘slander’ at Amy without bothering to see what the truth was (and that’s putting it charitably). This man can’t be trusted.

    “AS: “No, I believe I was honest and transparent with the leadership at Highpoint, um, and I think that was, uh, the right place for that information to exist.””

    This quote from andy shows you what highpoint ‘leadership’ thinks of you, members! You don’t need information, as long as andys fellows have elected to ‘forgive’ him and cover it up.

  3. If Ben had apologized after defaming Amy, it would have shown some character. Not that much in that he had no issue having a friendly interview with his friend, Andy, with no hard questions asked.
    However, his lack of apology, throwing the producer under the bus, etc., just continues the travesty started by the AS and CC’s initial responses and horrific ovation they engineered.
    Yuck!

  4. This smells. Even if it was an “honest mistake,” the effect DID protect Savage. Wow! Sorry not sorry in the end is how that sounds (in the sound bite.)

    Who cares about his intent? The effect is significant. And he should have been more charitable towards Amy Smith, IMO.

  5. My bad. I hadn’t heard the audio when posting.
    So Ben did apologize on air but didn’t bother to apologize via Twitter where he attacked Amy.
    Ben said a few times he tweeted out of anger. His character was being questioned. Why shouldn’t he expect pushback after the lame interview?
    I think Ben went out of his way to shift blame onto Amy by saying she should have called him to work it out before accusing him on Twitter. Why should she call someone who is a BFF of Andy? Doing this in writing via Twitter keeps it all in the public eye. It can’t be “he said, she said.”
    Bravo Amy!

  6. >A rumor is flying around that Andy Savage was not a Youth Pastor in any official way that would be recognized by the state of Texas

    One of the Kens keeps trying to say that he wasn’t in the original thread. I guess they think this is some sort of defense but to me it seems to be of the ‘she’s 18/17, it’s legal’ variety which carries no weight with me.

    He was certainly not comparable to a janitor. I’m not even sure how they think these arguments are helpful.

  7. Sandra wrote:

    Ben said a few times he tweeted out of anger.

    I don’t follow twitter much and cannot comment on Mr Ferguson’s birdsong, but as an important general point, it is impossible to tweet out of anger for long without tweeting something silly.

    You might get away with it if you had a squillion followers who applauded you no matter what you said, but I can’t imagine that would happen other than for a very successful comedian who’d made a career out of being outrageous.

  8. Might be interesting to see whether Andy claimed a minister’s housing allowance deduction on his Federal taxes. Another question is when / if he has been ordained. These are corroborating evidence of pastoral status.

  9. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    it is impossible to tweet out of anger for long without tweeting something silly.

    I don’t tweet, but I’ve composed many an angry email before letting it sit until I’m calmer and editing or deleting it rather than sending it out.

    Ben sounded silly.

  10. drstevej wrote:

    Andy claimed a minister

    What’s on his Linked In? What’s the title on his payroll at the churches? His HR files at the churches? Employment is a formal record – as you pointed out, what’s on his tax records?

    Jules was enrolled as a high school student at that time? That, too, is formal and documented.

    No matter the attempt to paint these two as peers at that time, formal records show what the divide, or difference really was.

  11. drstevej wrote:

    Might be interesting to see whether Andy claimed a minister’s housing allowance deduction on his Federal taxes. Another question is when / if he has been ordained. These are corroborating evidence of pastoral status.

    It doesn’t matter one iota what Andy Savage’s given title might be. He was given oversight of those highschool kids. He was in a position of leadership over them. Because of his leadership, some kids shared intimate details of their lives, and he was in a position to take advantage of those kids if he wanted to. And Savage did just that. Jules and Savage were not out on a date. He was supposed to be taking her home.

  12. Today I sat and listened to many of the victim impact statements read at the Larry Nassar trial. What has come out of this is that three major organizations – MSU, USAG, and USOC – knew about Nassar’s abuse and covered it up for years. This is a high level example of systemic abuse.

    All of the people who have been a part of enabling Andy Savage to continue in ministry and not fully accept the consequences of his crime have played a role in systemic abuse. Anyone who attempts to make Savage appear as the victim plays a role in systemic abuse.

    Why don’t people understand that with the way our technology is today you cannot get away with changing the narrative? What good does it do to falsify an interview, then when you’re called out for it to be aggressive and defensive? It will come back to bite you in the ass because someone will find the truth.

  13. @ Bridget:
    The church itself presented him as a ‘pastor’ to a bunch of high school kids. Im with you, I don’t care about housing alliances and formal titles. If he had lied and told them he was a doctor he would be legally misrepresenting himself, we wouldn’t be quibbling about whether the kids accepted it!

  14. @ drstevej:

    “Might be interesting to see whether Andy claimed a minister’s housing allowance deduction on his Federal taxes.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    “i’ll claim the pastor title when it benefits me, but deny the pastor title when it’s a liability for me.”

  15. Ferguson has no credibility. He should have been a decent human being and apologized on the medium he used (Twitter) to erroneously call Amy a liar. Heck, he could have driven across town in Dallas and apologized to her, as his “Memphis” radio show does not actually broadcast from Memphis, because Ben Ferguson actually lives in Dallas (unbeknownst to most/nearly all of his Memphis listeners).

    Yesterday, I tuned in for a minute to here him schilling for a stem cell company in Memphis who advertises with him. He touted the company as being “right here in Memphis” while he is, in fact, in Dallas & not disclosing the fact. It is not the worst of sins to con listeners like this, but it speaks to the credibility of the man.

    Clearly, Ben knows that few people will have heard his quick & inadequate apology for lying about the edits to the interview, but his vindictive tweets linger for a nationwide audience to see and refer to. Ferguson and Savage are plainly trying to control the narrative and know that overt B.S. denials left lingering will distort the truth with the public.

    Time for Memphis WREC and CNN to dump Ben Ferguson and get a man with integrity to do the job! No more smoke and mirrors!

  16. If AS had molested one of my daughters while in his youth group, he wouldn’t have gotten a going away party like his church gave him………

  17. He should apologise on twitter. That’s where he made his claims. It’s be great to see one of the Dudebros do the right thing, for once, without having to be prompted.

  18. elastigirl wrote:

    “i’ll claim the pastor title when it benefits me, but deny the pastor title when it’s a liability for me.”

    Bingo.

    Same with adulthood. Spiritual ‘authority’. Etc.

  19. “A rumor is flying around that an argument that Andy Savage was not a Youth Pastor in any official way that would be recognized by the state of Texas.” (Dee)

    Does anyone know if, when and where Andy Savage was ordained to the ministry?

  20. Max wrote:

    ordained to the ministry

    Sincere question: what does this mean? And, is it the same for everyone, or relative to a particular sect or group?

  21. Ben Ferguson has impulse control problems as well as a low frustration tolerance. These characteristics are unlikely to change; therefore, it’s doubtful he will apologize on Twitter.

  22. I noted with surprise that Ben Ferguson, in his “response” to Amy Smith, descrbed Jules as “a young girl in Texas, 17 at the time” (listen to it at 4:32 in the audio clip).

    Was this not the significant part of the first deletion from the radio interview… the section where Andy Savage also described his victim as a 17 year old girl?

    Thank you Ben Ferguson for ACKNOWLEDGING that Andy Savage assaulted a “young girl”.

    It is a pity that Ben Ferguson failed to “do his research” and listen to the recordings BEFORE making accusations about Amy Smith “not doing her research”. The fact that he failed to check (by his own admission) before publically slandering another person for the exact same action is the height of arrogant hypocrisy. A wise counsellor (King Solomon) once said, “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.” It is a further pity that a professing Christian such as Ben Ferguson did not take “wise counsel” from God’s word.

  23. Max wrote:

    Does anyone know if, when and where Andy Savage was ordained to the ministry?

    He wasn’t at the time of the assault since he was still in college. The only possibility is that he simply had hands laid on him as an ordination . . . at a very young age worth no experience. But I have seen this very thing done with a young man mainly to allow for housing relief. This particular young man was married, but younger than Savage.

  24. @ JYJames:
    At my church, there are different levels – like the deacons and elders are ordained where people lay hands on you and pray in front of the congregation and agree to a few points of faith.

    But pastors have a whole bunch of additional requirements around education, training, etc. and they’re ordained too.

    Baptists and non-denoms are fuzzier to me.

  25. “I stepped away from ministry completely, for a season”
    Season – Gag, I do not hear that word used in this fashion outside of churchianity.

  26. @ Lea:
    Calvary Chapel likes to brag about how you do not need to go to cemetery to be a pastor! So, it really does depend on the denomination, or the non-denomination, denomination..

  27. Bridget wrote:

    The only possibility is that he simply had hands laid on him as an ordination . . .

    Maybe a Neh 13:21 warning about laying on of hands would have been appropriate: “If you do so again, I will lay hands on you!”

    I once heard someone say that Jeremiah pulled out his own hair, while Nehemiah pulled out the hair of others.

  28. Lea wrote:

    >A rumor is flying around that Andy Savage was not a Youth Pastor in any official way that would be recognized by the state of Texas
    He was certainly not comparable to a janitor. I’m not even sure how they think these arguments are helpful.

    If it had been the janitor, they would have called the police.

  29. drstevej wrote:

    Another question is when / if he has been ordained.

    You know that ordination is not necessary to be a pastor in the SBC.

  30. elastigirl wrote:

    “i’ll claim the pastor title when it benefits me, but deny the pastor title when it’s a liability for me.”

    Darn straight

  31. Jackie Newton wrote:

    If AS had molested one of my daughters while in his youth group, he wouldn’t have gotten a going away party like his church gave him

    Can you imagine the two of us?

  32. Thersites wrote:

    Season – Gag, I do not hear that word used in this fashion outside of churchianit

    yeah- quite a season. he went back home and looked for a job and worked in constriction for 4 loooooooong months before becoming a pastor again. It probably took that long for him to fill out the paperwork. This is codswallop.

  33. dee wrote:

    Jackie Newton wrote:
    If AS had molested one of my daughters while in his youth group, he wouldn’t have gotten a going away party like his church gave him
    Can you imagine the two of us?

    Make it 3. If it had been my daughter, AS groupies could have sent flowers to his hospital room.

  34. dee wrote:

    yeah- quite a season. he went back home and looked for a job and worked in constriction for 4 loooooooong months before becoming a pastor again. It probably took that long for him to fill out the paperwork. This is codswallop.

    ***** Germantown Baptist Church
    Young Adult Pastor
    Germantown Baptist Church
    July 1999 – April 2002 (2 years 10 months)
    GBC was the church i was raised in and had the privilege to serve on staff there leading the college and young singles ministries. I started a ministry called Metro Bible Study that served as an outreach to the young singles population of the Memphis area.
    Stone Bridge Church
    Youth Pastor
    Stone Bridge Church
    June 1995 – April 1998 (2 years 11 months)
    Serving as the Youth Pastor at Stone Bridge Church (formerly Woodlands Parkway Baptist Church) was my first full-time ministry position. I learned invaluable lessons and consider Steve Bradley the pastor a mentor and friend even today. ********. From his linked-in profile.

    Apr. 98 through July 98. And, he went from being a “Youth Pastor” who got in trouble for having an “organic moment” with a girl in his “ministry” to being a “Young Adult Pastor” with a ministry that reaches out to singles!!!! Smells so fishy!

  35. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    “I started a ministry called Metro Bible Study that served as an outreach to the young singles population of the Memphis area.”

    [Andy Savage]

    From Twitter:
    Andy Savage Should Resign @MichaelHansen Jan 12
    “On a serious note, that Metro bible study Andy started for “young singles” at GBC was a breeding ground for hookup culture. Funny considering Andy talks so much about “sexual purity.” And why is he so obsessed with youth and sex? It’s been his entire ministry.”

  36. dee wrote:

    You know that ordination is not necessary to be a pastor in the SBC.

    Of course I know this. My point is that IF he is ordained or IF he has taken a tax credit as a pastor it is ADDITIONAL/CORROBORATING evidence of his status.

  37. @ Thersites:
    Right up there with “missional” and using partner as a verb. Just use the words that everyone else does. You aren’t special

  38. @ drstevej:
    … which, as several have point out upthread, is arbitrary at any given moment (according to AS and his colleagues).

    Another instance of putting the “profession” to shame. What a disgrace. One really does not get to do that on a professional level.

    This is so sad. There are stalwart men and noble women who do the right thing in Andy Savage and Friends’ line of work, 22yo or whatever.

  39. I think one problem with the Texas law is it doesn’t define “clergyman”. It also wasn’t clear initially with mental health services provider; that part of the law was amended later to be more specific. It is possibly that other parts of the law or court precedent make things clearer (this is where lawyers prove their worth). Ordination alone isn’t sufficient or necessary (note that Mormons ordain most young teenage males and some religions don’t ordain). I suspect that the key point if this had gone to court is whether he was expected and did provide spiritual advice as part of his position within the church (for instance could youth who confided in him have invoked clergy confidentiality to prevent him testifying to what they said).

  40. @ JYJames:

    “This is so sad. There are stalwart men and noble women who do the right thing in Andy Savage and Friends’ line of work, 22yo or whatever.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    i have such a mounting agitation when i hear the word “pastor”… thanks to so many schmucks (& I’m being polite). i forget that decent, honest, hard-working, pastors do exist.

  41. elastigirl wrote:

    @ JYJames:

    “This is so sad. There are stalwart men and noble women who do the right thing in Andy Savage and Friends’ line of work, 22yo or whatever.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    i have such a mounting agitation when i hear the word “pastor”… thanks to so many schmucks (& I’m being polite). i forget that decent, honest, hard-working, pastors do exist.

    I have greater doubt than I’d like to about this assertion, Elastigirl. Where are these honest pastors standing up to and calling out their fraudulent brethren in the pulpit? Teaching moral courage and Christian virtue, but being afraid to offend the powerful or simply others in the profession that you might see at the next “spiritual conference” or luncheon doesn’t impress me in the slightest.

    As a profession, pastors have less backbone than a school of jellyfish.

  42. A rumor is flying around that Andy Savage was not a Youth Pastor in any official way that would be recognized by the state of Texas. Seriously? You mean this Andy Savage who brags about being a young Youth Pastor on his website?

    Savage also claims on his bio for his upcoming conference in April that he was “serving first as a Youth Pastor at StoneBridge Church in The Woodlands, Texas and then locally as the Pastor of College students and Young Singles at Germantown Baptist Church.”

    http://www.7000days.org/speaker-bios

    Do you know if Savage has actually made the claim that he was not officially the Youth Pastor at StoneBridge? It could be StoneBridge is floating that rumor to avoid legal consequences. Either way Savage should publicly address the matter.

    BF: ‘Have you offered your resignation?”

    AS: “I did.”

    Conlee should have done the right thing and accepted Andy Savage’s resignation.

    Ben Ferguson should do the right thing and resign from his radio show. I am sure he could find another job quickly. I suggest he forward his resume to Sovereign Grace Churches. They have many unethical men on their payroll.

  43. I just finished “The Keepers.” It seems the same scenarios keep playing out over and over. So discouraging. I’m glad that at least the SOLs are being changed in many states. But what happened in Baltimore and Boston . . . so much lying by men who are supposed to be trusted. It is disgusting.

  44. Reading the transcripts from Furguson’s show, both here at Amy’s site, I can’t help but notice all the hemming and hawing: “uhum“. What is that?

    On another note, with friends like Ben Furguson, who needs enemies? He just dug a deeper hole for Andy Savage to dig himself out of. This is what happens when you try to justify and lie about your actions on a public radio program. Be sure your sin will find you out. I think Savage may have forgotten that Scripture.

  45. JYJames wrote:

    Ricco wrote:

    “missional”

    Haven’t yet figured this one out.

    Me either. I wonder if they even know what it means.

  46. Mara wrote:

    Oh Ben Ferguson, a.k.a. BF.
    You really are a BF of Savage, willing to lie for your friend and attack women who call you out for you lies.

    So the transcript could read AS’S BFF…

  47. Max wrote:

    “A rumor is flying around that an argument that Andy Savage was not a Youth Pastor in any official way that would be recognized by the state of Texas.” (Dee)
    Does anyone know if, when and where Andy Savage was ordained to the ministry?

    I think that only matters in churches which require ordination. Evangelical types do not have the same processes. A simple laying on of hands is often enough. This was a business model. AS became a member of the pastoral staff.

  48. And so, we see once again, the true colors of narcissists. Plain as the noses on their faces. Blame shifting, arrogance, sin levelling, gaslighting, grandiose sense of self worth, entitlement… There is really nothing new under the sun with these guys. It’s disgusting. No true man of God operates in this fashion. Simply stated, AS, BF, CC et al don’t fit the qualities of godly men.

  49. Didn’t Ben Ferguson offer Jules an opportunity to appear on his show?

    As a former journalist, now in a volunteer capacity as a media relations director for a charity working with vulnerable people, I advise against it. She has told her story, and I think it’s important she keep her power to speak at her time and choosing, and to freely reject people like Ferguson who are not trained or qualified to handle this type of sensitive interview evenly. Jules is under no obligation to anyone to explain or defend her experience. Even if Jules had an advocate with her, Mr. Ferguson has shown himself to be quick to anger, to take offense, attack and blame, and he is open about being a friend of Andy Savage. No abuse survivor has to go into a lions den to prove anything.
    It’s difficult when someone finds themselves in the limelight. Some become a poster child whether it be for abuse, domestic violence, fraud, crime victim etc. It has been my experience that most are not yet in a healthy place in their lives to be that poster child. No is a healing, necessary and self empowering word.

    When I saw the Ferguson tweets and listened to his apology, Colossians 4:6 came to mind.

    “Let your speech at all times be gracious and pleasant, seasoned with salt, so that you will know how to answer each one [who questions you].” Amplified

    Epic fail.
    Well done Amy.

  50. @ Mercy:

    “And so, we see once again, the true colors of narcissists. Plain as the noses on their faces. Blame shifting, arrogance, sin levelling, gaslighting, grandiose sense of self worth, entitlement… ”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    I’ve observed christian culture as a warm incubator for growing disorders like co-dependency and paranoia. Quite the bacteria-fest.

    it’s been postulated that the pastor/leader role in christian culture attracts narcissists. i don’t doubt that. in addition, though, i tend to think christian pastor culture grows narcissistic behavior and thinking in individuals who would not otherwise be so affected if the were in different career environments.

    i imagine it’s at least possible to have organized religion without the psychological minefield….

    (but that’s not encouraging enough to me to want to re-enter it)

  51. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Mercy:
    “And so, we see once again, the true colors of narcissists. Plain as the noses on their faces. Blame shifting, arrogance, sin levelling, gaslighting, grandiose sense of self worth, entitlement… ”
    +++++++++++++++++++
    I’ve observed christian culture as a warm incubator for growing disorders like co-dependency and paranoia. Quite the bacteria-fest.
    it’s been postulated that the pastor/leader role in christian culture attracts narcissists. i don’t doubt that. in addition, though, i tend to think christian pastor culture grows narcissistic behavior and thinking in individuals who would not otherwise be so affected if the were in different career environments.
    i imagine it’s at least possible to have organized religion without the psychological minefield….
    (but that’s not encouraging enough to me to want to re-enter it)

    Excellent point! I agree. I have personally been there, left, and found myself requiring deprogramming over the past several years out of necessity. I have also stated that i will never, ever darkened the door of one of these man made institutions again in my life. It sickens me through and through.

  52. @ AbuseCrusher:

    elastigirl: “i forget that decent, honest, hard-working, pastors do exist.”

    abusecrusher: “Where are these honest pastors standing up to and calling out their fraudulent brethren in the pulpit?”
    +++++++++++++

    actually, i was trying to be positive.

    i believe there are decent, honest, hard-working pastors out there, but the culture / belief system is screwed up.

    all the focus on unity, and the hyperfocus on disunity: thou shalt not gossip, not slander, not be divisive, not speak an evil word against another, not judge,…..bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, endure all things….

    it’s just a breeding ground for enablers.

    pastors enable each other. they don’t interfere with another’s shepherd/flock domain (there’s a verse or two they use to support this).

    too often a pastor’s career interests and standing amongst peers win out over challenging the status quo.

    church culture is thick enough that not even the best of pastors are immune to these things.

  53. @ Mercy:

    looks like we’ve walked the same road.

    i’m the happiest person, breathing in cool, clean oxygen-rich air every day. (especially sunday)

  54. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Mercy:
    looks like we’ve walked the same road.
    i’m the happiest person, breathing in cool, clean oxygen-rich air every day. (especially sunday)

    I felt disenfranchised at first. But then i received more clarity as i spent more time with the Lord and not the distractions of playing church. I must admit i miss the congregation in worship sometimes. But this is what happens whn you see the truth and begin swimming upstream. It can be lonely.

  55. Ben is the definition of passive-aggressive behavior, trashing Amy Smith verbally in the midst of his ‘apology’. We wonder why the church is shamed by those who purport to speak for her. I wonder if the producer got a bonus for falling on the sword for Ben…

  56. @ Mercy:

    i had to look up disenfranchised. tried to work it out on my own

    (franchise…. mcdonalds is a franchise… enfranchise… to mcdonaldsify….disenfranchise….to reverse the mcdonaldsification…)

    it didn’t go too well, so onto the dictionary. marginalized; an exile — is that the understanding?

    yes, i concur with that feeling. it was kind of an odd feeling, like the limbo after the last day of school as a kid… “wow, so that’s over — what do i do now?” the new normal of freedom was bewildering. but of course, not for long — summertime fun kicked in quick.

    in the same way “free at last” kicked in quick. i do miss the community of friendship, complex as it was (too many non-intuitive social rules). but i have discovered community all around me. i had just been too preoccupied and busy with church to even notice all the marvelous human beings in my midst outside the institution.

  57. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Mercy:
    i had to look up disenfranchised. tried to work it out on my own
    (franchise…. mcdonalds is a franchise… enfranchise… to mcdonaldsify….disenfranchise….to reverse the mcdonaldsification…)
    it didn’t go too well, so onto the dictionary. marginalized; an exile — is that the understanding?
    yes, i concur with that feeling. it was kind of an odd feeling, like the limbo after the last day of school as a kid… “wow, so that’s over — what do i do now?” the new normal of freedom was bewildering. but of course, not for long — summertime fun kicked in quick.
    in the same way “free at last” kicked in quick. i do miss the community of friendship, complex as it was (too many non-intuitive social rules). but i have discovered community all around me. i had just been too preoccupied and busy with church to even notice all the marvelous human beings in my midst outside the institution.

    Yes. That’s right. I have found some beautiful souls outside the church. They aren’t saved but they are real and kind. People are people. My story is complicated, long, sad. But it has pockets of goodness, moments of joy. They are precious to me.

    I ache for Jules and the treatment she has faced, in the past and currently. I absolutely loath these wolves. Clarity and discernment makes it difficult to watch.

  58. elastigirl wrote:

    i believe there are decent, honest, hard-working pastors out there, but the culture / belief system is screwed up

    My assessment exactly. Unfortunately, the culture/belief system doesn’t want decent, honest, hard-working pastors; they aren’t cool enough.

  59. Sandra wrote:

    If Ben had apologized after defaming Amy, it would have shown some character.

    Yes, his behavior has not been a display of Christian character. Looks like hanging out at Highpoint and being buds with Mr. Savage didn’t help develop that.

  60. A biased interview with a radio bud, an awkward standing ovation by church buds, and an “independent” auditor hired by another bud are not helping Mr. Savage’s chances of returning to the pulpit.

  61. Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

  62. Jerome wrote:

    Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    Was this for real? If so, this church should be shut down by the congregants walking out the door.

  63. Jerome wrote:

    Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    Pastors should have “family meetings” with church members when stuff like this comes up. Members deserve an opportunity to talk to their leaders directly; tweets, emails, and mass letters don’t cut it in times like these. Sheep get confused when their shepherds don’t lead; they need to hear his voice. While Mr. Conlee is very busy for 4-6 weeks, some Highpoint members might get busy themselves to look for another church.

  64. Erp wrote:

    I think one problem with the Texas law is it doesn’t define “clergyman”. It also wasn’t clear initially with mental health services provider; that part of the law was amended later to be more specific. It is possibly that other parts of the law or court precedent make things clearer (this is where lawyers prove their worth). Ordination alone isn’t sufficient or necessary (note that Mormons ordain most young teenage males and some religions don’t ordain). I suspect that the key point if this had gone to court is whether he was expected and did provide spiritual advice as part of his position within the church (for instance could youth who confided in him have invoked clergy confidentiality to prevent him testifying to what they said).

    The lack of definition is a feature, not a bug. The legislature wanted to make “clergy” a special category of vile* offenders, but didn’t want to define it, because, as you note, some religious organizations don’t ordain, and some ordain pretty indiscriminately. We’d have to look to the case law to see how judges in Texas have interpreted that statute. And then you might look to states with similar statutes and see how they have defined it.

    * “vile” is not a term of art in law, but just my feeling when it comes to clergy sex abusers.

    Oh, and by the way, Ben Ferguson, if you’re reading this, even I got fooled by your Memphis dodge. It was a *surprise* to learn that you’re actually out of Dallas. Aren’t there more local talk show hosts that could do your job? Probably could be more ethically responsible too…

  65. Highpoint Church, like a vast majority of churches (mainstream or nondenominational) is a corporation. The point is the brand. The shareholders are the pastors & institutions.
    What do they sell? Pop psychology and good feelings mostly. But ultimately, like any other top down scam, it’s about the payday.
    These corporate bodies and the personalities that drive them use the carrot of salvation. A pretty powerful carrot that keeps the people forever reaching (and paying).
    You can’t stop them, only provide a way out for those trapped behind enemy lines.
    But those who stay at churches like highpoint? I feel nothing. They’re being fleeced and seem to enjoy it.
    The rest of us subsidize this fiasco through the denial of taxes. And that’s not going to change until there’s a political will to do so. That would be politcal suicide for any legislator.
    And God? Well, let’s ask him…
    …………………………………………………hmmm. As one highpointer so eloquently put it. Crickets.

  66. Jack wrote:

    What do they sell? Pop psychology and good feelings mostly. But ultimately, like any other top down scam, it’s about the payday.
    These corporate bodies and the personalities that drive them use the carrot of salvation. A pretty powerful carrot that keeps the people forever reaching (and paying).

    They also sell a network. We know folks in churches that completely disagree with what is happening at the top, but they’d never leave their network of friends that connect via the institution. Connections on a weekly, almost daily basis. The face-to-face is powerful.

  67. Jerome wrote:

    Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    Wow! Seriously? Email me but you really aren’t important. I mean, i’m soooooo busy….

  68. Jerome wrote:

    Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    He has no clue. Narcissist chaacteristics come out.

  69. Jerome wrote:

    Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    Jerome- dod you know how far in it was when he said it? Some people want to make a clip of that statement.

  70. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    Oh, and by the way, Ben Ferguson, if you’re reading this, even I got fooled by your Memphis dodge. It was a *surprise* to learn that you’re actually out of Dallas. Aren’t there more local talk show hosts that could do your job? Probably could be more ethically responsible too…

    That would not be difficult. Surely, Fergusdon’s inept handling of this has caused his job to be hanging on a very loose nail.

  71. Jerome wrote:

    y had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    A pastor ……. too busy for church. So, what is he busy doing? Hiding under a rock: talking to lawyers: transferring bank accounts ……….

  72. @ Jack:

    Great comment Jack!
    Especially the bit about lawmakers who lack the cojones to effect change in the non-profit tax laws as applied to religious ‘non-profits’.

  73. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    A pastor ……. too busy for church. So, what is he busy doing? Hiding under a rock: talking to lawyers: transferring bank accounts ……….

    Ah yes, but evil is complicated. Good, on the other hand, is simple: show up, do your job, paycheck in the mail. But deception and the downward spiral take a lot of energy and conniving to maintain the scheming and lying and cover-up. Twisted, lots of curves, anxiety and unpredictability on the dark side. Lawyering, PR’ing, Branding, in other words, layers of facade to maintain the lie of a fake spirituality. The cat’s out of the bag… so how to keep the pews occupied and offering plate filled. The scheme will have to grow.

  74. Mercy wrote:

    Yes. That’s right. I have found some beautiful souls outside the church. They aren’t saved but they are real and kind.

    Beautiful souls, real and kind?
    Why wouldn’t they be ‘saved’?

  75. @ Jerome:
    What exactly does he do? I’ve often wondered this, especially in churches where the pastor is always telling the people it’s their responsibility it visit sick people not his. The congregation should help and visit the sick, but that isn’t because the pastor doesn’t.

    This reminds me of David Platt saying he does 25 hours a week of sermon preparation while being a full time pastor and full time director of the IMB. Or Kevin De Young bragging about his 27 different jobs and 7 kids but still being on Twitter all hours of the day. What exactly are these people doing?

    I have a rule with musicians. You take how much time they say they practice and divide it in half. That is how much they really practice. This is why I never talk about how much I practice. With these glory-hound pastors, maybe we should divide by 6

  76. Ricco wrote:

    25 hours a week of sermon preparation

    Does a qualified business person spend 25 hours in preparation for each presentation?
    Does a qualified professor spend 25 hours in preparation for each lecture? (hour long, 3x’s per week)
    Moreover, doesn’t the pastor have the Holy Spirit to guide him/her in preparation?
    The 25 hours preparation is for a once-per-week 20 minute? or 30 minute talk?

  77. elastigirl wrote:

    “I’ll claim the pastor title when it benefits me, but deny the pastor title when it’s a liability for me.”

    Just. Like. Scientology. They claim to be a religion when it suits their needs, but the rest of the time they’re fine calling themselves a business.

  78. Muff Potter wrote:

    Mercy wrote:
    Yes. That’s right. I have found some beautiful souls outside the church. They aren’t saved but they are real and kind.
    Beautiful souls, real and kind?
    Why wouldn’t they be ‘saved’?

    Because they are New Age. Crystals, etc. That said, i have found their hearts for others to be full of compassion and uncomplicated. It saddens me that the church people i have known have so much less compassion. Are they saved? Doubtful. Wll they be? Perhaps at some point in the future. But i am completely disheartened by those who claim to be Christians yet who show themselves to be Pharisees.

  79. @ JYJames:

    “They also sell a network. We know folks in churches that completely disagree with what is happening at the top, but they’d never leave their network of friends that connect via the institution. Connections on a weekly, almost daily basis.”
    +++++++++++++++

    i believe that the chief purpose of the current infrastructure model of small groups / ‘life groups’, etc. is to engineer a community in which people find it hard to leave and in which people are prone to give their money.

    i know in my recent church, the leaders were constantly reading books and informing themselves through media of all kinds on the latest church ideas. I think “healthy church” was on their minds, not revenue — but i do think that behind all the church model ideas is engineering people for the purpose of stability & revenue.

    even in the days before i started scrutinizing and slowing down to really think things through, i had this feeling i was being used. a pawn, in a larger scheme. it only got stronger over time. (much more could be said about this larger scheme)

    at the bottom of it all, i believe a church’s ultimate mission is to perpetuate itself.

  80. @ Mercy:
    Exactly! Often there is more compassion found outside of the ‘church’ than inside. Why? Because the real church comprises individuals who have been called out. The ‘church’ systems of men are fake.

  81. elastigirl wrote:

    @ JYJames:
    “They also sell a network. We know folks in churches that completely disagree with what is happening at the top, but they’d never leave their network of friends that connect via the institution. Connections on a weekly, almost daily basis.”
    +++++++++++++++
    i believe that the chief purpose of the current infrastructure model of small groups / ‘life groups’, etc. is to engineer a community in which people find it hard to leave and in which people are prone to give their money.
    i know in my recent church, the leaders were constantly reading books and informing themselves through media of all kinds on the latest church ideas. I think “healthy church” was on their minds, not revenue — but i do think that behind all the church model ideas is engineering people for the purpose of stability & revenue.
    even in the days before i started scrutinizing and slowing down to really think things through, i had this feeling i was being used. a pawn, in a larger scheme. it only got stronger over time. (much more could be said about this larger scheme)
    at the bottom of it all, i believe a church’s ultimate mission is to perpetuate itself.

    Amen, Elastigirl.

  82. Kathi wrote:

    Today I sat and listened to many of the victim impact statements read at the Larry Nassar trial. What has come out of this is that three major organizations – MSU, USAG, and USOC – knew about Nassar’s abuse and covered it up for years. This is a high level example of systemic abuse.

    Speaking of Nassar: Did you hear what he tried to do on Thursday? He wrote the judge a snivelling, petulant letter, complaining about having to hear all of these victim impact statements and how emotionally painful the whole process was for him. The judge read out this letter in court, and treated it with all the contempt it deserves. The impact statements, as we all know, haven’t stopped.

    http://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/22143482/larry-nassar-writes-letter-judge-complaining-sentencing-hearing

    Anyone want to place bets on how long it’ll be before Savage starts whining in public about having lost his precious book deals and conference gigs? After all, we’ve already seen Ferguson’s “exemplary” reaction to being called out for dishonesty.

  83. Max wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    i believe there are decent, honest, hard-working pastors out there, but the culture / belief system is screwed up
    My assessment exactly. Unfortunately, the culture/belief system doesn’t want decent, honest, hard-working pastors; they aren’t cool enough.

    Moose: “I’m not helping you sell that! There are plenty of good cereals for kids out there.”
    Ad Exec: “Yes, but we don’t sell the good cereals here. We sell CRUNCHY CRAWLIES!!”
    — from “Cucumber”, a classic kids show produced by TVOntario

  84. elastigirl wrote:

    at the bottom of it all, i believe a church’s ultimate mission is to perpetuate itself.

    – Perpetuate Jesus.
    – But, Jesus doesn’t pay and the church runs on money.
    – Maybe, the Church should run on the Holy Spirit (fruits [not self-help & pep talks] such as love, joy, and peace), and gifts: Rom. 12, 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4. One of the gifts from the Holy Spirit is the gift of giving, but in that case, the Holy Spirit, Giver of the gift, is still in charge. He is giving or withholding the gift. One doubts the Holy Spirit would support pedo practising or enabling people in the pulpit or in leadership. In that case, gifts gone.

  85. Ricco wrote:

    This reminds me of David Platt saying he does 25 hours a week of sermon preparation while being a full time pastor and full time director of the IMB. Or Kevin De Young bragging about his 27 different jobs and 7 kids but still being on Twitter all hours of the day. What exactly are these people doing?

    I used to teach math …… 6 classes per day …….. 120 to 130 students ….. lessons to plan …… papers to grade ….. disciplinary paper to fill out ……. parent-teacher conferences ….. teachers’s meetings …… PD sessions ……

    These poor, overworked babies need to try something like that for a while!

  86. ___

    “Heavenly dreamin’ on such a winter’s day…”

    hmmm…

    Scripturally Jesus’ church is people, who physically gather together in His name, who have this in common: trusting and believing in Him to saved them. They honor the holy scriptures, and delight in them, and they await the promise of His coming. (1)

    When you enter the premises of a 501(c)3 non-profit organization it can very well be quite a different story.

    (sadface)

    *
    ♪♩♪♩ hum, hum, hum …”Ooh, All the leaves are gone and the sky is gray.
    I’ve been for a brisk walk on a winter’s day,
    I am safe and warm in Jesus’ presence;
    I am ready to be with Him today,
    Heavenly dreamin’ on such a winter’s day…”

    ♪♩♪♩ hum, hum, hum …

    (b safe & warm!)

    ATB

    Sòpy

    (1)John 3:16, 2 COR 5:17, Psalm 1, Luke 21:34-36, Matt 18:20…

    ;~)

    – –

  87. “Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.”

    Highpoint’ website invites you to “Meet the Staff” followed by 52 photos and individuals with more job titles than any church I have ever come across before. How many of them have also taken a leave of absence such that Conlee is now SO busy?

  88. JYJames wrote:

    They also sell a network. We know folks in churches that completely disagree with what is happening at the top, but they’d never leave their network of friends that connect via the institution. Connections on a weekly, almost daily basis. The face-to-face is powerfu

    I’ve seen the good in such a network (people helping others through adversity) but a church is not required. I’ve found more fulfillment in my secular relationships than I ever found at a church.
    I think the network is more of trap in churches like highpoint. People won’t leave their families and friends. The peer pressure must be fantastic. Maybe events like this will force some of the good folks to rethink their relationships.
    Ultimately in any relationship, secular or otherwise, when one party benfits at the expense of the other then there is something awry.
    Cui bono, right?

  89. Ricco wrote:

    This reminds me of David Platt saying he does 25 hours a week of sermon preparation while being a full time pastor and full time director of the IMB. Or Kevin De Young bragging about his 27 different jobs and 7 kids but still being on Twitter all hours of the day. What exactly are these people doing?

    Lying.

  90. drstevej wrote:

    Might be interesting to see whether Andy claimed a minister’s housing allowance deduction on his Federal taxes. Another question is when / if he has been ordained. These are corroborating evidence of pastoral status.

    Beg pardon if this was answered already, but I seem to remember he was being housed by one of the church families at the time. Didn’t he take Jules back to “his” room in the tickling incident? Or am I remembering incorrectly?

  91. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    I used to teach math …… 6 classes per day …….. 120 to 130 students ….. lessons to plan …… papers to grade ….. disciplinary paper to fill out ……. parent-teacher conferences ….. teachers’s meetings …… PD sessions ……

    These poor, overworked babies need to try something like that for a while!

    I hear you! Don’t forget those folks who work the off shifts. Hospital staff, airport workers, maintenance staff of all types, cops, soldiers. People who keep the lights on and computers powered so these “deep thinkers” can operate.

  92. Bridget wrote:

    drstevej wrote:

    Might be interesting to see whether Andy claimed a minister’s housing allowance deduction on his Federal taxes. Another question is when / if he has been ordained. These are corroborating evidence of pastoral status.

    It doesn’t matter one iota what Andy Savage’s given title might be. He was given oversight of those highschool kids. He was in a position of leadership over them. Because of his leadership, some kids shared intimate details of their lives, and he was in a position to take advantage of those kids if he wanted to. And Savage did just that. Jules and Savage were not out on a date. He was supposed to be taking her home.

    Exactly. Good summary.

  93. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    He wrote the judge a snivelling, petulant letter, complaining about having to hear all of these victim impact statements and how emotionally painful the whole process was for him. The judge read out this letter in court, and treated it with all the contempt it deserves. The impact statements, as we all know, haven’t stopped.

    I saw that. The judge had contempt for it, and so should we, when ANYONE attempts to silence a person telling their story.

    Take note, churches. If they had kept this quiet and with the ‘proper’ authority chain, it would still be going on. Many tried to tell people along the way and were rebuffed. Predators operate ina similar way to each other, and keeping things quiet and in house only protects them, and creates more victims.

    If anyone tries to keep you quiet, ignore them and treat them with great suspicion.

  94. Muff Potter wrote:

    Great comment Jack!
    Especially the bit about lawmakers who lack the cojones to effect change in the non-profit tax laws as applied to religious ‘non-profits’.

    Thanks! I wondered if it was a bit much. I sometimes forget I’m on a Christian forum.
    The political will comes from the people. I think we forget how powerful a mass movement can be.
    I can rail against the injustice but I’m not part of the faith so it’s not like I really have a place at the table.
    It’s a Christian problem that requires christians to act. Only when those sitting in the pew have had enough will reform truly happen.
    That being said, church folks (clergy & laity) who do not report abuse per the laws of the land should face full prosecution.

  95. @ JYJames:

    yes, agreed. perpetuate Jesus. And Jesus doesn’t pay. Not glamorous or exciting enough. I’m quite sure that’s just the way he wanted it.

    i do feel for churches — the whole enterprise has gotten too big. the only way to sustain it is to turn it into a money-maker. as cyndi lauper says, “MONEY….money changes everything”.

    i would love to see church reinvented so that no money stays in the organization.

    –All are volunteers.
    –Money is donated each Sunday (or whenever they meet) to cover cost of facility
    –and to give to organization(s) doing well at relieving human suffering (& which don’t enrich themselves).
    –by the end of Sunday, bills paid and check written to organization(s), zero balance

    yes, money changes everything. and it can fund solutions that help people in dire need instead of enriching the christian enterprise for its own sake.

  96. @ drstevej:

    From the stories it sounded like Andy was living with a family from the church, so I doubt he would be able to claim anything on his taxes.

  97. Jerome wrote:

    Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    The lawyers probably have a big backlog.

  98. Everybody at the church called him a Youth Pastor, and he was presented as such. Now, they are going to say “Fooled you, didn’t we?” That will be received as well as the standing ovation, he was only 22, and she wanted it. Don’t be stupid.

    He was Youth Pastor when it was to his and the church’s advantage to be Youth Pastor (“Bow before your Betters, Laity!”) and he is not Youth Pastor when it is to his and the church’s DISadvantage to be titled “Youth Pastor”.

    This is called “Plausible Deniability”.
    With an aside into “Two Plus Two Equals Five” and “The Chocolate Ration of Twenty Grams Has Been Increased to TEN Grams”.

  99. Muff Potter wrote:

    Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

    Calvary Chapel likes to brag about how you do not need to go to cemetery to be a pastor!

    They (CC) do run a School of Ministry.
    It’s short, sweet, and eerily similar to the school of ‘Biblical” counseling that the Deebs profiled awhile back here at TWW.

    Calvary Chapel distills down and concentrates all the ways a Christian ministry/church can go sour.

  100. @ Ricco:
    Hah! I am reminded of a famous fiddler/concert violinist. While in town to play with the local symphony as a guest artist, he had an appearance at a music store to sign CDs. A mother pushed her son towards him in the line, saying, “Go on, ask him.”
    The kid reluctantly asked the musician how much he practiced.
    The musician answered, “I don’t practice.”
    The kid beamed. The mom’s face fell.
    The musician went on to explain that he had nerve damage, so he had to limit his playing to orchestra practices and performances, which could sometimes work out to as many as 8 hours daily, some days more.
    The faces of both the kid and his mom were interesting to behold when they heard that.

  101. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    It was a *surprise* to learn that you’re actually out of Dallas. Aren’t there more local talk show hosts that could do your job?

    But they’re not C*E*L*E*B*R*I*T*I*E*S like him.

  102. Max wrote:

    While Mr. Conlee is very busy for 4-6 weeks, some Highpoint members might get busy themselves to look for another church.

    And risk Losing Their Salvation and SHUNNING?

  103. JYJames wrote:

    We know folks in churches that completely disagree with what is happening at the top, but they’d never leave their network of friends that connect via the institution. Connections on a weekly, almost daily basis. The face-to-face is powerful.

    And Disconnect Decree LRH can come down from Flag.

  104. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    Ben is the definition of passive-aggressive behavior, trashing Amy Smith verbally in the midst of his ‘apology’. We wonder why the church is shamed by those who purport to speak for her. I wonder if the producer got a bonus for falling on the sword for Ben…

    All the Nobodies around a CELEBRITY are exepcted to fall on their swords for the sake of the CELEBRITY.

  105. Mercy wrote:

    And so, we see once again, the true colors of narcissists. Plain as the noses on their faces. Blame shifting, arrogance, sin levelling, gaslighting, grandiose sense of self worth, entitlement…

    The new Fruits of the Spirit?

  106. JYJames wrote:

    “On a serious note, that Metro bible study Andy started for “young singles” at GBC was a breeding ground for hookup culture. Funny considering Andy talks so much about “sexual purity.” And why is he so obsessed with youth and sex? It’s been his entire ministry.”

    This is generally called “packing his brains below his belt” or (as that one young predator said to Chris Hansen) “I was thinking with the wrong head”.

  107. dee wrote:

    If it had been the janitor, they would have called the police.

    Highborn and Lowborn.

  108. JYJames wrote:

    Ricco wrote:

    25 hours a week of sermon preparation

    Does a qualified business person spend 25 hours in preparation for each presentation?
    Does a qualified professor spend 25 hours in preparation for each lecture? (hour long, 3x’s per week)
    Moreover, doesn’t the pastor have the Holy Spirit to guide him/her in preparation?
    The 25 hours preparation is for a once-per-week 20 minute? or 30 minute talk?

    In some of the churches where the “ministry of preaching” (they have a much fancier way of putting it that I don’t quite recall) is elevated as the most important part of the church service, the sermon runs a minimum of 45 minutes. It seems to go on forever.

  109. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    You might get away with it if you had a squillion followers who applauded you no matter what you said, but I can’t imagine that would happen other than for a very successful comedian who’d made a career out of being outrageous.

    Or a third world dictator like Beloved Leader Comrade Kim Jong-Un.

  110. The “I’ve been redeemed, um, uh”

    You can only get away with that many “um,uh”s in a statement if you’re a painfully-shy butter-yellow pegasus pony mare, AND HE ISN’T!

  111. Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.
    dee wrote:

    Jerome- do you know how far in it was when he said it? Some people want to make a clip of that statement.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGuO127squg

    34:30-36:15 Conlee appears to be reading a script from his tablet.

  112. Dee wrote:
    “This is NOT a case of Susie gossiping with Betty Lou. This is far more serious. Sexual abuse can have life long consequences for the victim.”

    Unfortunately, in the eyes of church leaders, Susie gossiping with Betty Lou is as bad, or worse than sexual abuse.
    In my mind, there seems to be two reasons why this sin-leveling occurs in the case of gossip.

    1) I’m not a Greek scholar but a lot of translations of the Bible translate words that have a strong connotation of slander, or malicious slander to the English word gossip. But gossip isn’t necessarily slanderous, saying negative things about someone else isn’t slander unless it’s untrue.

    2) Based on these lousy translations, Church leaders use passages like 2 Corinthians 12:20 or Romans 1:29 to equate any negative comments anyone makes about anyone else with more serious sins. They do this so they can suppress criticism and escape accountability to their congregants and those outside.

  113. refugee wrote:

    In some of the churches where the “ministry of preaching” (they have a much fancier way of putting it that I don’t quite recall) is elevated as the most important part of the church service, the sermon runs a minimum of 45 minutes. It seems to go on forever.

    But the big scam in a lot of those churches is that the pastors either don’t write their sermons or they recycle the same 10-15 sermon series over and over again. They’re not spending 20-40 hours a week writing sermons like tell their congregations.

    The sermon services start recruiting through students while in seminary. I even got flyers, though “not qualified” because of my gender at SEBTS.

  114. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The “I’ve been redeemed, um, uh”
    You can only get away with that many “um,uh”s in a statement if you’re a painfully-shy butter-yellow pegasus pony mare, AND HE ISN’T!

    So true.

  115. Flathead wrote:

    Unfortunately, in the eyes of church leaders, Susie gossiping with Betty Lou is as bad, or worse than sexual abuse.

    It’s sad, but true. And you’ll never hear about pride or greed from them…

  116. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    If he and the church were misrepresenting him as a pastor (not that I think they were but for arguments sake) how would it be the 17 year old girls fault for seeing him as such?

    Either way, practically, that is how he was presented. I’ll go with that.
    refugee wrote:

    Jerome wrote:

    Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    The lawyers probably have a big backlog.

    Yep.

  117. Jerome wrote:

    34:30-36:15 Conlee appears to be reading a script from his tablet.

    Two things about this clip.

    1. It’s weird to me that he’s reading off a tablet. Very unprofessional looking and andy read his statement off his phone or something too. Weird! That wouldn’t fly in most settings.

    2. That is a very weird shirt, untucked, that conlee is wearing. He looks like he’s going out to work on a farm.

  118. Mercy wrote:

    Because they are New Age. Crystals, etc.

    I sincerely doubt that the Almighty, He who wove the fabric of reality as we know it with unspeakable power, is all that miffed over crystals and silver talismans with purported ‘magical’ powers.

    I think He’s far more concerned with what kind of Stewards we are with what He’s given us and with how we treat each other.

  119. Muff Potter wrote:

    Mercy wrote:
    Because they are New Age. Crystals, etc.
    I sincerely doubt that the Almighty, He who wove the fabric of reality as we know it with unspeakable power, is all that miffed over crystals and silver talismans with purported ‘magical’ powers.
    I think He’s far more concerned with what kind of Stewards we are with what He’s given us and with how we treat each other.

    They are good people. But we know that our Lord has given us salvation through His Son. He alone judges that.

  120. Flathead wrote:

    “This is NOT a case of Susie gossiping with Betty Lou. This is far more serious. Sexual abuse can have life long consequences for the victim.”

    Holy Guacamole! Didja’ see what Rhonda Sue wore last Sunday?

  121. Muff Potter wrote:

    Mercy wrote:

    Because they are New Age. Crystals, etc.

    I sincerely doubt that the Almighty, He who wove the fabric of reality as we know it with unspeakable power, is all that miffed over crystals and silver talismans with purported ‘magical’ powers.

    I think He’s far more concerned with what kind of Stewards we are with what He’s given us and with how we treat each other.

    The truth is that there are decent people (with moral standards) both in and out of the ‘church’. The Lord has provided a way for us to be able to stand before God with His own righteousness. It is His righteousness, not ours. We have nothing to be proud of. He hates pride in a ‘christian’ setting. He hates legalism. When we look down on those who are not, or not yet, saved, then we show pride, which brings into question how well we actually know Jesus.

  122. Pardon the tangent , but I’m not following the college student timeline. Perhaps someone can explain it.

    How was a nineteen-year-old who graduated from Houston High School , which I assume is the one in Germantown, TN, going to college in Memphis, TN, WHILE working in Woodlands Parkway Baptist Church in The Woodlands, TX? That’s a hell of a commute.

    Was he working as a Youth Pastor (or whatever his official title was at WPBC) WHILE attending another college in Texas part-time? Eighteen to nineteen is typically the age of college freshmen who enter college directly from high school. Surely the pastors at WPBC knew whether or not Savage was attending ANY college during his employment (even if the course Savage was taking was correspondence only) since it would be really hard to hide that fact from leadership because of conflicting scheduling issues. Was the congregation of WPBC under the impression that Savage WAS a college student the whole time he was employed there? Did Savage “fudge” his college situation on any of his bios because that would speak to his character, yes?

    Was he taking classes at the University of Houston, Sam Houston State University, the local community college –Montgomery College campus/Lone Star College for several years before transferring to the University of Memphis when he went back to TN? Did he graduate from high school early and start college early and then graduate college early? Did he do mostly correspondence or online classes? Was he not really a college student while at WPBC and simply got his Univ of Memphis degree long after leaving The Woodlands?

    Basically, was Savage telling the truth about being a college student during his time at WPBC? If not, that raises the question of what he was like he was when he was hired at WPBC. Did he drop out/flunk out of college in Tennessee and need a job? Why not continue in college in TN or at least try to find a Youth Pastor job there? Why come to TX for a job? Did Savage (or his family) have some significant connection to someone in The Woodlands who could have gotten a nineteen-year-old guy from Tennessee the job 500+ miles away at WPBC?

    It just seems VERY curious that a guy who had recently graduated from high school in Tennessee ended up at a church in The Woodlands, Texas, so soon after high school.

    If he was, in fact, a college student at The University of Memphis while working in Texas, how was he working for WPBC (now known as StoneBridge Church) during the spring of 1998 because online classes were not a huge offering in the late 90s? Is the whole “college student” aspect of his time at WPBC not entirely true?

    Perhaps it’s just the cynic in me, but something about his being a “college student” while at WPBC seems off.

  123. @ Mercy:

    “they are New Age. Crystals, etc. That said, i have found their hearts for others to be full of compassion and uncomplicated. It saddens me that the church people i have known have so much less compassion. Are they saved? Doubtful. Wll they be? Perhaps at some point in the future. But i am completely disheartened by those who claim to be Christians yet who show themselves to be Pharisees.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    i can’t help but be disillusioned about this “saved” bit, and to question it all.

    i, too, observe superior behavior (behaving easily and naturally, seemingly without trying) in people who don’t wear the “christian” label. there is nothing to prove, no one to please. it is kindness for its’ own sake and for the sake of the object of the kindness (the person, animal, etc).

    does it all come down to the magic words of the sinner’s prayer and then you’re in like flynn? add baptism and you’re really in like flynn?

    i really have my doubts. i do think common sense plays a part in understanding these things.

  124. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Ferguson has no credibility. He should have been a decent human being and apologized on the medium he used (Twitter) to erroneously call Amy a liar

    This changing of the medium is positively diabolical. Only a fraction who read the tweets will listen to the apology.
    A megachurch near me did this. The pastor suddenly resigned and vanished, claiming God was changing his job description. This guy was much more widely known than SAvage. A whole official letter from him was posted to the church website explaining how it was God’s timing since the young guy hardly anyone had heard of was in place to take over. 6 months later the new pastor sadly announced that there may have been an indisgression the old pastor forgot to mention, but he’s confessed now so all’s well. But the video of this was posted with no transcript and a title like “important announcement” without the words affair or adultery or even, IIRC, the old pastor’s name. So Internet or TV followers or even folks who just missed that service still had no idea months later. And of course if they did see the announcement, they then had to watch a video to find out.

  125. Jerome wrote:

    Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    The new young pastor in the megachurch near me did something like this in his announcement of the old pastor’s sin— like “We’re here to help in this difficult time, but this is the only information we’ll be sharing…”
    And there was LOTS of info he didn’t share– like the length of the affair or that it was with a staff person (a pastor for all practical purposes who could only be a “director” because female).

  126. Boyd wrote:

    Was he taking classes at the University of Houston, Sam Houston State University, the local community college –Montgomery College campus/Lone Star College for several years before transferring to the University of Memphis when he went back to TN?

    I have been assuming he was attending school in tx before he lost his job and came home, and transferred credits. And then just put the school he actually graduated from on his bio, which would be normal. but I have no idea. It might help to know what year he graduated. It seems like he took some extra time for school but since he was working part or full time (?) maybe he was not trying to finish in four years.

  127. Ha. Conlee already has a statement about that 4-6weeks business!

    Highlights. That sin 20 years ago is equated to bloggers being ‘hateful’. And some sources are not reliable. I guess he’s talking about Jules.

    But they aren’t minimizing! /proceeds to minimize

  128. Bridget wrote:

    I just finished “The Keepers.” It seems the same scenarios keep playing out over and over. So discouraging. I’m glad that at least the SOLs are being changed in many states. But what happened in Baltimore and Boston . . . so much lying by men who are supposed to be trusted. It is disgusting.

    I feel the same way. I’ve said that I don’t trust evangelical leadership anymore because if they don’t abuse people, they support people who do.

  129. @ Tina:
    You only get one chance to get this stuff right. There is no ‘oh well it was 20 years ago nobody’s perfect. If that is your response you still don’t get it!

    Btw, conlee said: ‘ “We’re gonna do everything we possibly can to answer everybody and to give reasonable people the story.”

    Lol. Before we talk to you we will decide if you are ‘reasonable’?

  130. Lea wrote:

    I have been assuming he was attending school in tx before he lost his job and came home, and transferred credits. And then just put the school he actually graduated from on his bio, which would be normal.

    So you think he graduated from a TN high school and chose a TX college to attend?

    Possible, but it would be very strange to chose a Houston area university or community college in TX as his first school UNLESS he already had a job lined up in The Woodlands. If he didn’t have the job at WPBC lined up already, and he went to some other TX university for a semester and then transferred to a local school in the Houston area, it still begs the question of why he ended up in The Woodlands, yes?

  131. Boyd wrote:

    So you think he graduated from a TN high school and chose a TX college to attend?

    I don’t see why not.. I know a lot of people from Arkansas who went to Texas or Tennessee. Houston is maybe a ten hour drive from Memphis?

  132. Boyd wrote:

    Possible, but it would be very strange to chose a Houston area university or community college in TX as his first school

    Why would that be strange?

    If mean, I moved a thousand miles away for school but it doesn’t seem odd at all to go a state or two over..

  133. Jerome wrote:

    34:30-36:15 Conlee appears to be reading a script from his tablet.

    I’ll bet anything related to this event will be approved by a lawyer first.
    Andy may not face criminal charges but a civil suit is a possibility.

  134. Max wrote:

    A biased interview with a radio bud, an awkward standing ovation by church buds, and an “independent” auditor hired by another bud are not helping Mr. Savage’s chances of returning to the pulpit.

    I don’t think guys like Savage know how to make a living outside of ‘ministry’. Or probably a better way to say it is, they have no interest in making a living outside of ‘ministry’. Working hard at a job behind the scenes, out of the public eye where accolades and fawning fans do not exist, is not something that interests these kind of men. I think they get some kind of high off of all the excitement in the limelight, all the followers, all the compliments, etc. Except when being in the limelight backfires on them and women like Jules come forward to expose their deeds.

  135. ishy wrote:

    recycle the same 10-15 sermon series over and over again

    Oh yeah, that’s modus operandi in Easy Church … actually, they could get away with only 10-15 individual sermons, not a series! Most folks just come for the cool music and light show, not the sermon.

  136. Lea wrote:

    That is a very weird shirt, untucked, that conlee is wearing.

    Lea, that’s standard attire for pastors in cool church.

  137. Jerome wrote:

    Conlee today told congregants today that if they had questions they should email him with them and they could expect an answer in four to six weeks as he is really busy.

    That’s what Kevin DeYoung calls “Crazy Busy”!

    He needs to be very careful at this point in how he responds to anyone … so he will have his legal team approve the promised Q&A document – that takes time, say 4-6 weeks.

  138. Max wrote:

    Lea, that’s standard attire for pastors in cool church.

    It’s usually untucked but a different kind of shirt. More put together. That one wasn’t good.

  139. Darlene wrote:

    I think they get some kind of high off of all the excitement in the limelight, all the followers, all the compliments, etc.

    Classical narcissistic behavior.

  140. Max wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    I think they get some kind of high off of all the excitement in the limelight, all the followers, all the compliments, etc.

    Classical narcissistic behavior.

    Yep. Nobody claps and gives you a standing ovation when you sell office supplies. The wealthy power players in town don’t invite you to lunch, either.

    I’ve long maintained that the problem with these narcissists claiming a “calling” to ministry is that if you told them if they would leave their mega, and pastor a church of just 60 folks while having to deliver pizzas to make ends meet, BUT you could assure them that those 60 folks would have the most profound effect for Christ in the last 1,000 years, they’d all want to stay at their cushy positions. Granted, it is a wild hypothetical, but when framed that way, I think we understand that it is money and power that they love, not Jesus.

    Modern pastors are not at all the same sort of folks who dropped their fishing nets and followed Jesus wherever he led.

  141. Seems like Conlee and the elders are driving the naive congregation down a dark back road with the promise of ice cream.

  142. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Modern pastors are not at all the same sort of folks who dropped their fishing nets and followed Jesus wherever he led.

    Rare and endangered species in the American church. In my 60+ year Christian journey, I’ve met very few and was honored to know them.

  143. Spartans: By age 14, boy is a survival expert. By 18, he is the best warrior on earth.

    Vikings: At age 6, a boy learns glima (Scandinavian martial arts). By 18, he’s a skilled warrior and survival expert.

    Today’s male pastor: At age 23, sexually assaults 17 year old in his guardianship–too chicken to take responsibility–says he was “just an young college student.” Soon writes manuals & sermons about “How to be an Authentic Man”. Age 42 , still can’t take responsibility for misdeeds, calls them an “incident”, cries in front of church to manipulate them into feeling sorry for him, while blame-shifting to the victim. Runs to lawyers across the country begging them to protect him. Rallies church to shield him from the “mean” women and men who are “attacking” him online. Lauded as a “leader” by the sheeple in his congregation.

    Wonderful progression of manhood, eh? Pathetic.

  144. Darlene wrote:

    I don’t think guys like Savage know how to make a living outside of ‘ministry’. Or probably a better way to say it is, they have no interest in making a living outside of ‘ministry’

    You were probably right the first time, Darlene. I know a few pastor types who have work experience outside the walls of the church, but not many. And often, it’s an entry-level type job that wouldn’t pay their current bills. It’s a bit traqic, really, because these guys often live in fear of offending the wrong power players at the church and having to go back to work.

    And I’m really amazed at how many ways there are for these guys to steal sermons. If I had done something like that at University or in the corporate world, it’s instant termination. They treat it like it’s no biggie, even when I can find the artwork, outlines, and the name of the real author in a minute or two.

    One thing I haven’t seem mentioned. I do feel for Savage’s wife and kids. They are caught in the middle here, and it’s got to be stressful at home. Imagine having to live with this knucklehead.

  145. @ Lea:

    “That is a very weird shirt, untucked, that conlee is wearing. He looks like he’s going out to work on a farm.”
    +++++++++++++++

    it’s quilted. reminds me of my hollie hobbie bathrobe when i was 9… all quilted, kind of puffy between the quilted stitching just like chris’s… big round plastic buttons…

  146. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    You were probably right the first time, Darlene. I know a few pastor types who have work experience outside the walls of the church, but not many. And often, it’s an entry-level type job that wouldn’t pay their current bills. It’s a bit traqic, really, because these guys often live in fear of offending the wrong power players at the church and having to go back to work.

    +++++++++
    It is not just that they don’t have the skills, but that they enjoy an incredible life of ease in the ministry. Had multiple people in the ministry remark to me that they “could never have a real job.”
    +++++++++++++++
    @GSD “And I’m really amazed at how many ways there are for these guys to steal sermons. If I had done something like that at University or in the corporate world, it’s instant termination. They treat it like it’s no biggie”
    ++++++++++++++++
    A famous pastor once told me with a smile when I commented that he had stolen some sermon material…”Good pastors borrow; great pastors steal!”

    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    @GSD “I do feel for Savage’s wife and kids. They are caught in the middle here…”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++
    Savage claims he told his wife all of the details BEFORE they got married. If true, she was complicit, and we shouldn’t feel too sorry for her. Plus, she is currently busy sending private email chains trying to get the church members to defend them from this “Satanic attack”.

    If she knew everything, I have little sympathy for her. If she now knows, and can’t encourage her husband to do the right thing (take full responsibility and resign) I have little sympathy for her. She has been sucking at the golden church teat for some time in hopes that the fraud would not be found out. In short, she wants all of the benefits and none of the responsibilities.

    I do feel sorry for the kids, as their dad has been exposed as a fraud. However, were he to resign, he can still earn a living in the real world, and the kids will be financially fine. They’ll have more respect for their dad (and this can be a crucial teachable moment in their formative years), if Andy starts to act like a Christian man, assumes responsibility and begins looking out for someone other than just himself.

  147. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Lea:

    “That is a very weird shirt, untucked, that conlee is wearing. He looks like he’s going out to work on a farm.”
    +++++++++++++++

    it’s quilted.

    Thank you!!! That’s it. Just an odd choice.

  148. @ Lea:

    well, my observation is that many professional christians are “dressed” by stylists (like celebrities going to public events).

    it just comes off weird — overdone, out of context, trying to look haphazard like you don’t care but clearly it took a lot of time and styling products and care to get that don’t care look.

    talk about silly…

  149. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Plus, she is currently busy sending private email chains trying to get the church members to defend them from this “Satanic attack”.

    Oh, I didn’t know that. I don’t necessarily believe Andy when he says he told his wife the whole truth before they married. Maybe he did, but he seems to be really good at spinning a story. But now that he’s admitted everything, and she’s still defending him… Yeah, sounds like she might be complicit.

    I still feel sorry for the kids. And I don’t know that Savage is capable of working outside the church. He has no experience or training that I know of, other than 4 months in construction. However, given his skill at spinning a story, politics might be an option ;^)

  150. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Plus, she is currently busy sending private email chains trying to get the church members to defend them from this “Satanic attack”.

    Bwaaaa haaa haaa haaa! No doubt, she knows full well that she’s married to that satanic attacker.

  151. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    And I don’t know that Savage is capable of working outside the church. He has no experience or training that I know of, other than 4 months in construction.

    +++++++

    He could do SOMETHING; I’m just sure it won’t be as profitable and easy as ministry.

    He professionally spins things to an audience…maybe he could be one of those guys who (generally, honorably) travels around to various CostCo stores demonstrating blenders. etc. His integrity tank is more empty than a Gary Glitter concert hall, so perhaps he could one day work his way up to being the next TV infomercial version of Vince, the ShamWow guy.

  152. Speaking of Nassar: Did you hear what he tried to do on Thursday? He wrote the judge a snivelling, petulant letter, complaining about having to hear all of these victim impact statements and how emotionally painful the whole process was for him. The judge read out this letter in court, and treated it with all the contempt it deserves. The impact statements, as we all know, haven’t stopped.

    Anyone want to place bets on how long it’ll be before Savage starts whining in public about having lost his precious book deals and conference gigs? After all, we’ve already seen Ferguson’s “exemplary” reaction to being called out for dishonesty.

    Serving Kids: I like this judge. She’s fantastic!

    As far as Savage, it will be interesting to see if he says anything over the next couple of weeks.

  153. Thersites wrote:

    “I stepped away from ministry completely, for a season”
    Season – Gag, I do not hear that word used in this fashion outside of churchianity.

    If I never again hear the word “season” used in this context, it will be fine by me.

  154. “There are some sins that should be disqualifiers for ministry. There are also some sins that need to be reported to the police.”

    Exactly. This stands tall amongst all the straw men with which the spin things.

  155. AS: “No, I believe I was honest and transparent with the leadership at Highpoint, um, and I think that was, uh, the right place for that information to exist.”

    As opposed for the information to exist in a conviction file and sex offender list. Church oversight for the loss.

  156. Does saying that something is slander and defamation of character that is not slander and defamation of character constitute slander and defamation of character? Ben might want to figure that one out.

  157. First time commenting – the blog and ACFJ have been more helpful to me getting out of an abusive marriage and cult-like church than the therapy I pay for.

    Anyway just a quick comment about Andy’s wife. I know nothing about her, or what she did or didn’t know and when, but IME, the pressure to stand by him (one flesh union, you know! Like Christ and the church!), “forgive” (ignore and reconcile as if nothing happened) and the other “church” bs must be pretty intense.

  158. Boyd wrote:

    Pardon the tangent , but I’m not following the college student timeline. Perhaps someone can explain it.

    How was a nineteen-year-old who graduated from Houston High School , which I assume is the one in Germantown, TN, going to college in Memphis, TN, WHILE working in Woodlands Parkway Baptist Church in The Woodlands, TX? That’s a hell of a commute.

    Was he working as a Youth Pastor (or whatever his official title was at WPBC) WHILE attending another college in Texas part-time? Eighteen to nineteen is typically the age of college freshmen who enter college directly from high school. Surely the pastors at WPBC knew whether or not Savage was attending ANY college during his employment (even if the course Savage was taking was correspondence only) since it would be really hard to hide that fact from leadership because of conflicting scheduling issues. Was the congregation of WPBC under the impression that Savage WAS a college student the whole time he was employed there? Did Savage “fudge” his college situation on any of his bios because that would speak to his character, yes?

    Was he taking classes at the University of Houston, Sam Houston State University, the local community college –Montgomery College campus/Lone Star College for several years before transferring to the University of Memphis when he went back to TN? Did he graduate from high school early and start college early and then graduate college early? Did he do mostly correspondence or online classes? Was he not really a college student while at WPBC and simply got his Univ of Memphis degree long after leaving The Woodlands?

    Basically, was Savage telling the truth about being a college student during his time at WPBC? If not, that raises the question of what he was like he was when he was hired at WPBC. Did he drop out/flunk out of college in Tennessee and need a job? Why not continue in college in TN or at least try to find a Youth Pastor job there? Why come to TX for a job? Did Savage (or his family) have some significant connection to someone in The Woodlands who could have gotten a nineteen-year-old guy from Tennessee the job 500+ miles away at WPBC?

    It just seems VERY curious that a guy who had recently graduated from high school in Tennessee ended up at a church in The Woodlands, Texas, so soon after high school.

    If he was, in fact, a college student at The University of Memphis while working in Texas, how was he working for WPBC (now known as StoneBridge Church) during the spring of 1998 because online classes were not a huge offering in the late 90s? Is the whole “college student” aspect of his time at WPBC not entirely true?

    Perhaps it’s just the cynic in me, but something about his being a “college student” while at WPBC seems off.

    This is exactly what bothers me, too. I can’t figure out how he was a 22 year old college student who graduated from the University of Memphis and was working in Texas at the same time. Also, when he says he left the ministry altogether for “a season” and worked construction, I wonder if he was working for his father’s construction company, Savage Construction?

  159. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    lessons to plan

    Exactly. Many lessons to plan per week, plus follow-up with many students and sometimes parents individually done solo without a support staff. 25 hours for 1 presentation would put a school or business out of operation.

  160. A snippet from the John Piper answer on the Desiring God site,

    Is There a Place for Female Professors at Seminary?
    https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/is-there-a-place-for-female-professors-at-seminary

    (by John Piper)

    So a closing word. The issue, as always, is not the competence of women teachers or intelligence or knowledge or pedagogical skill. It’s never competence! That’s not the issue in the home or in leadership. It’s not the issue in church leadership. It’s not the issue in seminary leadership.

    The issue here at the seminary level is largely the nature of the seminary teaching office

    So, in John Piper’s world, it appears that it would be better to have an incompetent man in a leadership position than a competent woman. It’s the plumbing that matters, not what’s in the brain.

  161. elastigirl wrote:

    i would love to see church reinvented so that no money stays in the organization.

    Interesting.
    Back in the day, George Müller, director of orphanages in England, cared for 10,024 orphans during his lifetime and provided educational opportunities for the orphans to the point that he was even accused by some of raising the poor above their natural station in British life. Müller died without accumulating wealth for himself, and his bookkeeping was transparent.

  162. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Wonderful progression of manhood, eh?

    Great juxtaposition, it certainly highlights the infantilization of a supposed dominant male. Good job.

  163. @ elastigirl:
    Seminarian Müller spent three days in jail for thievery and had his “come-to-Jesus” moment at that time. Thereafter he gave up his thieving ways, never solicited funds for his orphan ministry AND he published his financial records publicly.

    Apparently, God heard his repentance and honored his change of heart, because a lot of money passed through his hands into his ministry to support those orphans. But he never built a dynasty and died without an endowment. All went into the support of orphans and paying all employees (including himself) a normal living wage.

    It was exactly as you describe, no money stayed in or built an organization. Müller and his family lived in rooms in the orphanage, like everyone else. No mansion or estate.

  164. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote [on people who can get away with tweeting angry]:

    Or a third world dictator like Beloved Leader Comrade Kim Jong-Un.

    Yes, a certain kind of politician might get away with it, too. One with a quasi-religious support base.

  165. Lea wrote:

    Why would that be strange?

    If mean, I moved a thousand miles away for school but it doesn’t seem odd at all to go a state or two over..

    I went to school in TX, and mycollege freshman roommate was from Maryland, so it isn’t strange in the sense that he went out-of-state, but it would be odd if he chose the local community college in The Woodlands UNLESS he had a job lined up at WPBC when making the decision in high school about where to attend college.

    If he chose U of H, it is not a 20 minute commute to either the downtown or main U of H campuses even as the crow flies, and rush hour traffic … bad, so why not live closer or on campus if U of H was his college? And going to school at U of H while working asa Youth Pastor in The Woodlands? I don’t buy it. Yes, there are college freshman who live on the north side of Houston who commute to U of H, but they almost always live at home with their parents. The downtown campus is filled with students who work downtown and often do night school.

    If he chose Sam Houston University, that’s in Huntsville, and it has on campus housing, too, plus there are lots of apartments near campis. Lots of people who live north of Houston do make the commute to Huntsville, so that seems like a reasonable choice IF HE WAS PLANNING on living in The Woodlands from the very beginning. But why would he have been planning on living in The Woodlands and commuting to school unless the job at WPBC was a given from the time he started college?

    JUST choosing a TX school in the Houston area AND living in The Woodlands seems off. The Woodlands isn’t a college town or an urban center. It’s an upper middle class master planned community that is filled with families with kids.

    So, how did he end up in The Woodlands!? Connections with someone of influence at WPBC seem likely. And it may be a factor in why things were handled the way they were at WPBC.

  166. Max wrote:

    Pastors should have “family meetings” with church members when stuff like this comes up. Members deserve an opportunity to talk to their leaders directly; tweets, emails, and mass letters don’t cut it in times like these. Sheep get confused when their shepherds don’t lead; they need to hear his voice. While Mr. Conlee is very busy for 4-6 weeks, some Highpoint members might get busy themselves to look for another church.

    This is an ongoing issue with me. I think the loss of flat congregational led churches is a big part of the current problems within many “evangelical” churches. And from what I can tell it is now baked into the seminary system so all the new young pastors coming out have been taught to believe that THEY are in charge and the regular church members are “below” them. And it seems to be a tenet of YRR types.

    I love this article from a decade or so ago by Micheal Spencer, the original Internet Monk. I grew up in a church with such meetings as parodied here.

    http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-pope-needs-a-business-meeting

    Interestingly IM was talking about a situation that looks very mild today in terms of the authority of pastors over the membership.

  167. Darlene wrote:

    Reading the transcripts from Furguson’s show, both here at Amy’s site, I can’t help but notice all the hemming and hawing: “uh…um“. What is that?

    Nothing to see here. People who study how humans communicate will tell you that the vast majority of us not reading a prepared speech or script (TV, movies, etc…) will insert a LOT of “um’s”. It seems to be our brain’s way of letting our thought catch up with and prepare the next words for what is coming out of our mouth.

  168. drstevej wrote:

    Another question is when / if he has been ordained.

    The Southern Baptist Convention does not ordain pastors as a denomination. There is no standardized ordination process or oversight. Southern Baptist churches like StoneBridge and High Point “ordain” pastors on the local church level. So Andy was never ordained by a denomination with examination and oversight.

  169. JYJames wrote:

    – Maybe, the Church should run on the Holy Spirit (fruits [not self-help & pep talks] such as love, joy, and peace), and gifts: Rom. 12, 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4. One of the gifts from the Holy Spirit is the gift of giving, but in that case, the Holy Spirit, Giver of the gift, is still in charge. He is giving or withholding the gift. One doubts the Holy Spirit would support pedo practising or enabling people in the pulpit or in leadership. In that case, gifts gone.

    Absolutely!
    Our sermon yesterday touched on how Judas walked with Jesus, heard his teaching, saw his miracles, even preached himself and cast out demons with the others. And yet his heart was hard towards God and he betrayed Jesus. He didn’t leave in disgust. He stayed with Jesus almost to the end, but he was a traitor. It really opened my eyes to how an abuser can appear godly and gifted and be involved in the church, but actually be hard-hearted. I wish more people understood this.

  170. dee wrote:

    If it had been the janitor, they would have called the police.

    I’d like to think so, but.

    A former janitor at a Tulsa megachurch who admitted to sex crimes against three girls told his victims Wednesday that “no one’s perfect” in an statement in which he pointed to Scripture just before a judge sentenced him to 55 years in prison.

    A 13-year-old girl who was raped by Chris Denman sobbed in the first row of the courtroom as the judge handed down the sentence. The scandal at Victory Christian Center also ensnared five other church employees who are accused of waiting to report the August rape in a church stairwell.

    Source:
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/12/ex-tulsa-megachurch-worker-gets-55-year-prison-term-after-pleading-guilty-to.html

  171. I couldnt leave a comment anymore on the slander article linked here, but what is brought up about Matthew 18 is noteworthy.

    The initial scenario describes both a relative equality of participants (brother to brother), and something in which an internal matter between two Christian siblings as it were had occurred. (tFor contrast, the Greek addition eis is widely translated “against you”). What is written in 1 Cor. 6 also corrrsponds to internal confrontation of a personal dispute or matter (Gr. pragma). In this case, the result of not going to an earthly authority appears to at worst represent someone being wronged (Gr. adikeisthe) or defrauded/cheated (Gr. apostereisthe).

    Context seems to strongly indicate personal tort matters between siblings as it were. Also adding perspective is the goal in Matthew 18 of being heard and gaining a brother, implying this is in large matter a matter of fellowship rather than uniform dispute settling of criminal matters. Again, looking at the end result, the penalty as it were in this case is a loss of fellowship (being treated as a heathen or tax collector). Does that sound like the way a criminal situation involving sexual assault would be settled?

    If you’re going to use Bibical counseling as it were, here the whole counsel. Throw in Romans 13 for the place of civil authority and being subject to them, As pointed out, the law of the land in all 50 states is clear. The brother vs. brother matters in Matthew 18 and 1 Cor. 6 do not negate the reality of rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and submitting unto authorities. Another bonus is that most churches subject their entities to governmental authority, from their tax-evading status down to the gold-trimmed flags likely on premises, which if I’m not mistaken is a signal of subjection to admiralty law and civil authority. So you’re going to do that in one instance, but act like you’re a Christian tribunal justice dispensary excising other acknowledged authority in another?

    Simply put, you can’t cherry-pick per your interpretation of Scripture as an excuse to evade the administration of justice by applicable authority. This circles back to the issues with personal-take “Biblical” counseling setups where once again, latitude is too often given for authority can be whatever one personally interprets chosen verses to be, which of course can lead to spiritual abuse. (Of course, to be sure, I need to check with whatever spiritual leader [sic] at the local Christian-labeled tax-free entity I’m told to subsidize per an old covenant/Mosaic law proscription. They might have a divergent opinion and exert discipline.)

  172. I am at a loss to see how there can be a congregational model of church governance, think SBC in the old days on the one hand, and at the same time have denominational control over ordination with denominational oversight of the clergy.

    IMO there can be problems either way, but the two forms of church governance have distinct differences in practice. Personally I spent the first almost half century of my life as first SBC and then FWB and got a rather good look at some issues handled or no handles by the local congregations. Then later with the grandchildren I witnessed a church/school kerfluffle in an LCMS church-eventually solved by the hierarchy. And now we are members of an Episcopal church-which also has a hierarchical structure. For myself I prefer a hierarchical structure, but for those who see that as forbidden by scripture then the ordination issue will apparently have to remain local and not denominational.

  173. okrapod wrote:

    I am at a loss to see how there can be a congregational model of church governance, think SBC in the old days on the one hand, and at the same time have denominational control over ordination with denominational oversight of the clergy.

    doublethink.

  174. NC Now wrote:

    People who study how humans communicate will tell you that the vast majority of us not reading a prepared speech or script (TV, movies, etc…) will insert a LOT of “um’s”. It seems to be our brain’s way of letting our thought catch up with and prepare the next words for what is coming out of our mouth.

    Here in SoCal, the filler syllables are “Like… You know…” instead of “Uh… Um…”.

  175. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Yes, a certain kind of politician might get away with it, too. One with a quasi-religious support base.

    An additional problem with Twitter is that in a 140-character txtmsg, it’s really hard to do anything more detailed or deep than “I made a poopie!” (Even if you attach MySpace links to “selfies” of each piece floating in the loo.)

  176. Thersites wrote:

    “I stepped away from ministry completely, for a season”

    Translation: “I stepped away from ministry for a very short while.”

  177. Daisy wrote:

    So, in John Piper’s world, it appears that it would be better to have an incompetent man in a leadership position than a competent woman.

    And TWW is cataloging the results of that.

  178. elastigirl wrote:

    well, my observation is that many professional christians are “dressed” by stylists (like celebrities going to public events).

    I cannot see a stylist picking that out.

    Sorry for getting off on this style thing, it was just weird. Of course, ministers in my church wear robes when they speak.

  179. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    I don’t necessarily believe Andy when he says he told his wife the whole truth before they married. Maybe he did, but he seems to be really good at spinning a story. But now that he’s admitted everything, and she’s still defending him… Yeah, sounds like she might be complicit.

    She wasn’t there 20 years ago. I’m sure he told a story that made him sound much better (like the kiss one he told a bunch of people – or he told her he wasn’t ‘pure’ ugh).

    I don’t blame her, she wasn’t complicit then and she hasn’t really had time to process now. Her husbands behavior is not her fault. I have been thinking about this impulse to blame the wife when things are found out, but this didn’t even happen when they were married! Now, if she’s sending emails round now she can be faulted for that, but it’s not the same as being complicit.

    That said, I don’t like this idea I sometimes see that men should not be held accountable for their actions because it might hurt their wife and kids. All he is being asked at this point is to take a different job. That happens to fathers and husbands and families all the time. We know even if it does happen, the church will probably give him a giant severance.

  180. Kathi wrote:

    how emotionally painful the whole process was for him

    Yes! So many parallels.

    Someone confronts you about damage you did to them, and suddenly it’s all. about. you. Take note, Savage defenders.

  181. Daisy wrote:

    The issue here at the seminary level is largely the nature of the seminary teaching office

    I can’t quote the chapter and verse where the requirements for “seminary teaching office” are defined, but I believe it they are found in II Pseudohermeneutics.

  182. Daisy wrote:

    It’s never competence!

    Heaven forbid we consider competence when looking at anything.

    No wonder churches are such a mess, if they’re listening to this drivel.

  183. Boyd wrote:

    So, how did he end up in The Woodlands!? Connections with someone of influence at WPBC seem likely.

    Even if that is true, I don’t think it’s nefarious. But we just don’t know, all of this is speculation.

  184. NC Now wrote:

    It seems to be our brain’s way of letting our thought catch up with and prepare the next words for what is coming out of our mouth.

    I did toastmasters, where they ‘bleep’ at you when you um/uh. But most people who have learned not to do that, substitute different words. I can’t remember off hand what they are called, but they are basically thought pauses (like ‘So…’). It takes a lot of work to get rid of them, but some sound better than others.

  185. Daisy wrote:

    The scandal at Victory Christian Center also ensnared five other church employees who are accused of waiting to report the August rape in a church stairwell.

    There is something seriously wrong in so many churches.

  186. Clay Crouch wrote:

    Thersites wrote:
    “I stepped away from ministry completely, for a season”

    Translation: “I stepped away from ministry for a very short while.”

    Further Translation: My BFF’s at church were not able to cover for me once the truth came out so I had to leave ministry. I got back in literally as soon as I could move home and find a place that would take me.

  187. FW Rez wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    The issue here at the seminary level is largely the nature of the seminary teaching office

    I can’t quote the chapter and verse where the requirements for “seminary teaching office” are defined, but I believe it they are found in II Pseudohermeneutics.

    My thoughts exactly. I laughed out loud when I read Piper’s line. He adds to scripture more than anyone I know.

  188. @ NC Now:
    Lol, as soon as someone says “nothing to see here” I look to see what they are trying to divert my attention away from.

  189. @ Jen:
    Excellent post/link! Here are excerpts:

    “So long as he [the offender, or sinner] does not restore what is taken away, he remains in fault; and it will not suffice merely to restore what has been taken away, but, considering the contempt offered, he ought to restore more than he took away. For as one who imperils another’s safety does not do enough by merely restoring his safety, without making some compensation for the anguish incurred; so he who violates another’s honor does not do enough by merely rendering honor again, but must, according to the extent of the injury done, make restoration in some way satisfactory to the person whom he has dishonored. Anselm, Cur Deus Homo”

    “I have counseled and been an accountability partner for several men who committed adultery. What I learned is that once the notoriety fades, they all want to go back to the way things were, to just pick up where they left off. They start telling me they are deeply repentant and ashamed, they have suffered, and they know God has forgiven them. They might even tell me their spouse has forgiven them. They are desperate to have it all back. I have to tell them the truth: you can never go back because you have altered too much; I tell them they must find a new way with God – and it will be a long, lonely, and humble journey to a new reality…”

  190. NC Now wrote:

    it is now baked into the seminary system so all the new young pastors coming out have been taught to believe that THEY are in charge and the regular church members are “below” them. And it seems to be a tenet of YRR types

    No doubt about it. I dare say that ‘most’ new SBC church plants are staffed by YRR pastors who install elder-rule governance as a first act of their ministry. Trained in SBC seminaries now leaning reformed, they are in their 20s-30s with “elder” teams of same age. A church model which is an accident waiting to happen, as flesh competes with spirit over who will be on the throne.

  191. @ Jen:
    Thanks for the link to an interesting post. In the end, the writer presents good ideas for the case of Savage/Conlee/HP. The part about having a moral compass is particularly compelling. Excerpts:

    “Launch a sermon series about consent and power and sex, and admit that Christians are no better on these issues than the culture at large, and the idea of ‘purity’ has contributed to the problem.”

    “Thank the bloggers and social media critics for holding you accountable.”

    “None of that made the list. Instead, Conlee cited a Bible verse suggesting those critics (*waves*) are the Devil. We prowl around like a lion seeking someone to devour. And then he emphasized that we weren’t really that strong anyway.”

    “Does this church have anyone at the helm with a moral compass? Maybe they should find one of those instead of wasting everyone’s time acting like the church is the real victim in all this.”

  192. @ Jen:
    Yes, good post. Thanks for the link. They quote Anselm:

    “So long as he [the offender, or sinner] does not restore what is taken away, he remains in fault; and it will not suffice merely to restore what has been taken away, but, considering the contempt offered, he ought to restore more than he took away…”

    In this case, Savage would have to admit kidnapping, trickery, lustful assault on unsuspecting innocence, and subsequent lying. The churches who hired him would have to also own up to their part. In all cases, the dignity and courage of Ms. Woodson would be lauded, by the perpetrators and failed leadership.

  193. Lea wrote:

    I don’t blame her, she wasn’t complicit then and she hasn’t really had time to process now. Her husbands behavior is not her fault. I have been thinking about this impulse to blame the wife when things are found out, but this didn’t even happen when they were married!

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    The problem is that Andy said in his statement that his wife new every detail BEFORE they were married. If that is true, then she is complicit.

    Of course, we know that Andy is an inveterate liar/manipulator of the truth. Let’s suppose that he is lying about his revealing to her of all details…she is allowing him to throw her under the bus and lie about her prior knowledge…hence, complicity in perpetuating lies.

    In either case, she bears some responsibility.

    Maybe I have a funny perspective, because I am married to a principled woman, but my wife would not tolerate me painting her as a witting dupe nor lying about her involvement in order to cover up a sexual abuse issue. I realize Savage’s wife has a lot on the line (income, prestige, etc.), but those of us in the real world have to choose to do the right thing daily, and sometimes it costs us, too.

  194. @ Jen:
    “What happened 20 years ago was wrong. What is happening with bloggers and social media critics being so hateful is also wrong.” (Chris Conlee)
    Reminiscent of Robert Morris trying to shame the people of God for expressing concerns about their leaders in his “Satan’s Hit List” rant: “I’m really concerned about how much time people spend on the Internet. I’m extremely concerned about it. Extremely concerned about it; here’s one thing, just even the blogs that mention Christian leaders, and I’m one of ‘em. Praise the Lord, I’ve made the Satan, Satan’s hit list now you know, but here’s what blows me away. You wouldn’t listen to gossip, but you’ll read it.” (Robert Morris, Gateway Church)

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/09/27/gateway-pastor-robert-morris-calls-blogs-satans-hit-list/

    I suppose some bloggers are mean-spirited and “hateful”, but the initial blogs which flagged this problem (Watchkeep and TWW) don’t fall in that category. They have a track record of expressing concerns about church leaders who fail morally and then continue to be sheltered and supported by their ministry peers until the potato becomes too hot to handle. Indeed, pastors who don’t do the right thing should be very concerned about their congregations spending time on the Internet! They will often find essential truth there, rather than filtered communications. You can trust the Wartburger community, except for the occasional knucklehead and troll who stop by.

  195. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    The problem is that Andy said in his statement that his wife new every detail BEFORE they were married.

    Andy is not a reliable source.
    AbuseCrusher wrote:

    If that is true, then she is complicit.

    This still would not be true! Complicit means she was involved in his illegal/wrong activity. If you are talking about Jules, she was not at all involved! She found out afterwards and could not change it.

    If you mean she is involved in damage control now? Sure. But that’s not surprising and it still does not make her responsible for his behavior, at least any more so than his whole church is. And of all people to blame for ‘standing by’ someone in the midst of controversy, the wife is the last one I am going to blame.

  196. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Maybe I have a funny perspective, because I am married to a principled woman

    Oh please.

    The question is, why in the face of a man doing terrible things is the first impulse in some quarters to go hard after the wife??? There is a reason there and you are deflecting.

    I am thinking about this because I have been reading up on the Nassar case, where I have several mentions of his wife. In the Sandusky case, there were several people talking about the wife. I think people do this from a ‘how could they not have known’ place, and from a general impulse to blame women for mens actions, and I am rapidly losing patience for it.

  197. @ Lea:
    At least in the cases of Sandusky and Nassar, the wife was actually married to them when the abuse occurred, so I can kind of understand.

    But that is not the case with Andy.

  198. Lea wrote:

    I don’t blame her, she wasn’t complicit then and she hasn’t really had time to process now. Her husbands behavior is not her fault.

    This is true. Good point. She isn’t complicit in Andy’s actions 20 years ago, but she is involved in the attempt to minimize his actions now and shame his accusers. But, I don’t know these folks at all, and there might be some manipulation in the marriage. Heck, Andy could be writing those emails on his wife’s account. He may have her believing that if she leaves, he will get the kids. We just don’t know. Until there’s more info, I’m going to feel some sympathy.

  199. Lea wrote:

    And of all people to blame for ‘standing by’ someone in the midst of controversy, the wife is the last one I am going to blame.

    Like Tammy Faye Bakker, she might have come from (and is immersed in) a culture where the wife “Stands By Her Man” no matter what. Plus (like Tammy Faye seems to have been) she might have been deceived by her husband. Or (like Mrs Bill Cosby) the money and prestige might have spawned a “Don’t Rock the Boat” attitude.

    However, if hard evidence comes out that she WAS complicit the whole time…

  200. JYJames wrote:

    “Launch a sermon series about consent and power and sex, and admit that Christians are no better on these issues than the culture at large, and the idea of ‘purity’ has contributed to the problem.”

    I have long maintained that Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else these days, they just show it differently.

  201. Clay Crouch wrote:

    Thersites wrote:
    “I stepped away from ministry completely, for a season”

    Translation: “I stepped away from ministry for a very short while.”

    i.e. “Just until all the heat blows over.”

  202. Max wrote:

    Sadly, it appears that Crunchy Crawlies have taken over the church here. Hope things are better in Japan.

    That would depend on one’s definition of “better”. I’ve heard very few stories of abusive churches making the news here in Japan (or at least, no stories about abuse on this scale), so that’s a good thing. But that’s probably due to a number of factors, not least of all the fact that the Christians still make up no more than 2% of the total population. Megachurches like Highpoint are hard to come by.

    There’s also the horrible legacy of the Aum Shinrikyo doomsday cult, whose crimes would probably overshadow anything done in a church, by a pastor or its members.

    The clergy/laity divide is still alive and well here; I’ve heard stories of church splits and pastors accused of bad behaviour; I’ve seen guys like Driscoll and Piper promoted among ex-pats (this was before I encountered Julie Anne or the Deebs). So there’s no telling how things might go among churches in the future.

  203. Don’t hate me.

    The Savage/Conlee/Ferguson (SavConFer) show is hilarious and I’m getting quite the kick watching them and anticipating their next faux pas.

    First the standing O, which stunned the world, complete with flashing lights, fog, and a worship leader worshiping Andy shouting that he is worthy of honor! [Um, wasn’t it Jesus who hung and bled for sins he did NOT commit?] Conlee letting that statement stand is beyond my comprehension. The weak excuses show a complete lack of understanding and compassion. And the latest sermon claims a demonic attack?

    Conlee is calling precious daughters of the Most High and Honorable King demonic! Jules, Amy, Dee, Deb.

    If it weren’t for you pesky girls, their self-worship show could go on unabated. Tsktsk, girls!

    Meanwhile, Jules, you aren’t forgotten and I pray that these awful shenanigans bring down that filthy house.

  204. A couple of comments/tweets by others have stuck with me this week:

    Andy shouldn’t have offered to resign. He should have resigned.

    If you act in way that is not above reproach, you can never again claim to be above reproach.

  205. Remnant wrote:

    Conlee is calling precious daughters of the Most High and Honorable King demonic! Jules, Amy, Dee, Deb.
    If it weren’t for you pesky girls, their self-worship show could go on unabated. Tsktsk, girls!

    If it weren’t for pesky Jules, this wouldn’t have happened.
    If it weren’t for people listening to pesky Jules, this wouldn’t have happened.
    If it weren’t for those pesky girl gymnasts, Nassar could still be a doctor.
    If it weren’t for that pesky wife at TVC following her own impulse and annulling her marriage, everything would be fine.
    If it weren’t for those pesky women in #metoo, we wouldn’t be hearing all these terrible stories.
    If it weren’t for brave men and women telling their stories of abuse, abusers would still be able to go about their business.

    God bless the pesky; without them nothing would change.

  206. Lea wrote:

    Oh please.

    The question is, why in the face of a man doing terrible things is the first impulse in some quarters to go hard after the wife??? There is a reason there and you are deflecting.

    +++++++++

    Hardly my first impulse, as I’m sure you know. I believe (as do most readers here) believe that Conlee is complicit in this, as well (and with many others, apparently), despite the fact that he did not commit the actual sexual abuse, himself.

    Andy’s wife is, in fact, complicit in the cover-up (whether for many years or just recently). She shouldn’t get a pass, strictly because she is a woman (I think we all respect women too much to infantilize them in this way). She knows right from wrong and is actively choosing wrong. As a man, if my wife were the pastor doing what Savage has done, I would not expect a free pass for perpetuating my spouse’s lies from the pulpit, & I feel pretty confident I’d be roundly (and properly) criticized for doing so; let’s give Andy’s wife the same respect.

  207. So Conlee says that bloggers are hateful. Let me pull the quote …

    “What is happening with bloggers and social media critics being so hateful is also wrong… there are some sources in life that are not reliable or responsible…”

    I think what he is missing is this:

    The facts of the case – of the way Youth Pastor Savage groomed and tickled Jules in a bedroom (what was he doing in a bedroom with a girl??!) and then continued to be alone with her after being admonished, of the way he was alone with her in a car, of the way he CHOOSE not to bring her home as promised, of the way he whipped out his precious, of what he had her do to it, of his crocodile tears, of the satanding O, and the paltry ridiculous excuses, THOSE are the hateful things!

    The hateful thing is what Andy did!
    The hateful thing is the lack of anyone is taking responsibility.
    The hateful thing are the excuses.
    The hateful thing is the twisted standing O.
    The hateful thing is the soft peddled interview by a radio personality friend.
    The hateful thing is the spin.
    The hateful thing is the manner bloggers are being called demonic.
    The hateful thing is the admitted truth of what happened and how it is now being spun.

    The hateful thing is NOT that Jules story has been brought to ligh nor that bloggers speak about it and voice disgust.

    It is hateful what SavageConleeFerguson are doing with Jules.

  208. @ Lea:

    “Sorry for getting off on this style thing, it was just weird. Of course, ministers in my church wear robes when they speak.”
    +++++++++++

    well, people in the public eye present themselves in such a way to communicate something. they intend for the public to look and form conclusions; indeed, we can’t help but look and form conclusions. or, be at a loss for any kind of conclusions (quilting…..hmmm…)

  209. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I have long maintained that Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else these days, they just show it differently.

    Agreed. And in opposite extremes.

  210. Lea wrote:

    AbuseCrusher wrote:

    I would not expect a free pass for perpetuating my spouse’s lies from the pulpit

    As far as I know, his wife is not in any pulpit.

    The analogy was if my wife were on the pulpit doing the Savage thing, and I were complicit in covering for my spouse’s lies from said pulpit…the analogy holds true.

    Lea, I get the feeling this is a raw nerve for you in some way. Perhaps, it is a raw nerve for me, as well, because I saw this happen up close and personal at Fellowship Memphis. There was a rush to protect the church worship leader, Rick Trotter, when it was discovered that he had been taking voyeuristic videos of women and children in the church bathroom and in his home, etc. Much of the desire to protect him was from overwrought emotion for his wife, Heather Loritts Trotter; however, most folks didn’t realize that she had known about his behavior and had a code word with him for which, when used, no questions would be asked. She gladly stayed with him and participated in the coverup (including a massive payout to her and her pervert husband and provision of housing in return for their public silence). She had meetings to silence the victims, and (at least tacitly) encouraged her husband to take another church worship minister job in town (with no checks and balances & with the pew-sitters having no idea that their music minister was a pervert who preyed on congregations). Of course, he was caught again at the new church, but she waited months afterward to leave him (only doing so when his actions were finally reported on TV, thereby humiliating her).

    So, maybe I do have a bias by virtue of experience. I do know that Ms. Savage is actively using her “pastor’s wife” position to send out email chain pleas for the church body to protect her husband from this “satanic attack.” She should be encouraging her husband to tell the truth (or she could even tell the truth herself), but I’m afraid she (like her husband, Conlee, et al) likes the perks of paid ministry life too much.

    She may be in a hard position (it is possible she put herself there). Worth questioning. Certainly can’t be overlooked.

  211. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    However, if hard evidence comes out that she WAS complicit the whole time…

    And even if hard evidence is forthcoming, what choice do women have in those kinds of religious regimes?

    They are taught and drilled incessantly that they have no legitimate human agency beyond what they believe the Bible ‘teaches’ concerning the place of women.

  212. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Lea, I get the feeling this is a raw nerve for you in some way.

    Don’t go this direction. It’s not. I just think this impulse to blame wives should be noted and checked.

    I do AbuseCrusher wrote:

    I feel pretty confident I’d be roundly (and properly) criticized for doing so

    This is where you are wrong. Your pastor wife, if such a scenario were allowed to exist in an SBC church which it would not, would be soundly criticized. You would probably be thought the poor husband. There is a double standard at work here, I think.

    The worst his wife is guilty of is possibly sending an email, which assuming it exists who knows if she even wrote it – it could have been directed by her husband and sent through the lawyers. You want to criticize her for that, go ahead. But she is not ‘complicit’. That word has meaning.

  213. Muff Potter wrote:

    And even if hard evidence is forthcoming, what choice do women have in those kinds of religious regimes?

    What choice indeed?

    Her only choice would be to loudly and publicly criticize her husband maybe? Is that the only thing that would relieve her of being ‘complicit’? That would likely lead to the disillusion of her marriage. That’s a hard choice.

  214. re: Andy’s wife
    Hateful bloggers and media
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    part of being in the christian church bubble is being surrounded by niceness.

    smiley niceness, all the time.

    christians step in and out of their church bubble, all for relatively brief periods of time. Too brief for anything to happen that would provoke anything other than smiley niceness.

    christians are told that THIS is God’s kingdom on earth. This is what is authentic. This is what is real. Not the evil worldly world outside. They are told they are not of this world, they are foreigners in this world. their citizenship is in heaven, hence this outpost of God’s kingdom (their church).

    it’s utterly unreal, of course. it’s nice and pleasant. but not real. not reality.

    they (a good many christians) don’t know what to do with plainspeaking. with conflict directed at their smiley nice bubble. because of the us vs. them paradigm, the only way they can understand it is by seeing it as an attack from the enemy.

    they have been programmed to think this way.

    Play the God card followed by the biblical card and the Gospel- card with smiley niceness and you can get people to believe just about anything.

    (but this is old news)

  215. Lea wrote:

    You would probably be thought the poor husband. There is a double standard at work here, I think.

    ++++++++
    Doubtful, but we can agree to disagree.

    What I don’t want to do is get us in a circular firing squad over the ancillary issues (this is what Savage, Conlee, and their “wise counsel” would like).

    I think we need to work together to call for justice for Jules and to call out cover-ups by anyone who is trying to bury Jules’ story by telling lies, distorting the truth, enabling the liars, or attacking those who would tell the truth.

  216. elastigirl wrote:

    because of the us vs. them paradigm, the only way they can understand it is by seeing it as an attack from the enemy.
    they have been programmed to think this way.

    Yes. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    AbuseCrusher wrote:

    What I don’t want to do is get us in a circular firing squad over the ancillary issues (this is what Savage, Conlee, and their “wise counsel” would like).
    I think we need to work together to call for justice for Jules and to call out cover-ups by anyone who is trying to bury Jules’ story by telling lies, distorting the truth, enabling the liars, or attacking those who would tell the truth.

    I do not consider it a ‘circular firing squad’ I consider it a distraction from the real issues, which are primarily with leadership in the various churches that hired Andy.

  217. Lea wrote:

    That would likely lead to the disillusion of her marriage. That’s a hard choice.

    Yep. Especially when there are children involved. Been there and done that; it is a horror. I am pretty sure that she probably swore a public oath to the effect of for better or for worse. And I am pretty sure that there has been no evidence forthcoming as of yet to indicate that he has repeated his prior behavior with other people, so she probably believes him in whatever he is saying about it. And I know for sure that when she gave birth to those children she acquired a biologically driven responsibility to act in the best interests of the children.

    She has limited knowledge since she was not there at the time and limited options, and nobody can make her decisions for her at this stage when all of the possible decisions carry the risk of being wrong and perhaps even disastrous.

    Were the circumstances different I would feel differently about her behavior, but at this point I think people need to hold off making decisions about her unless/until further information comes forward.

  218. okrapod wrote:

    Were the circumstances different I would feel differently about her behavior

    Of all times where I have seen wives blamed for their husbands behavior, this one seems the least fair. She is responding to events in the past, prior to their marriage. The circumstances were wrong on his part from an abuse of power standpoint, but the assault portion is fuzzier. I cannot blame her for believing her husband over a stranger (and I am not sure Andy himself doesn’t believe it was consensual. I think he does).

    She may change her mind or not, but if I were her I would not be making a move until I had given it an awful lot of thought. And it would not be in public.

  219. okrapod wrote:

    She has limited knowledge since she was not there at the time and limited options, and nobody can make her decisions for her at this stage when all of the possible decisions carry the risk of being wrong and perhaps even disastrous.

    Sometimes the best decision possible is the least bad of a bunch of bad alternatives.

  220. A little history of the word “Ovation”:

    In the Roman Empire, an “Ovatio” was a parade of public honor from the gates of Rome to the Capitoline Hill second only to a “Triumph” (which by then was reserved for the Emperor only — “AVE, CAESAR!”) The main difference was the one being honored either walked or rode horseback at the head of the parade instead of being borne in a chariot with a laurel crown held over his head. Otherwise, the two were very similar, cheering crowds and all.

  221. elastigirl wrote:

    re: Andy’s wife
    Hateful bloggers and media
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    part of being in the christian church bubble is being surrounded by niceness.
    smiley niceness, all the time.

    Successful Sociopaths are always soooo Polite and sooooo Nice.
    (As Nice as its namesake N.I.C.E….)

  222. Lea wrote:

    She may change her mind or not, but if I were her I would not be making a move until I had given it an awful lot of thought. And it would not be in public.

    Me too. There can be real benefit in just saying nothing.

  223. @ Mary Yoder:
    SBC voices is ridiculous, but I’m glad that they posted the article Jen linked.

    But then I went back to the old article to read comments and found this:

    In all seriousness though, perhaps (and I’m spit-balling here) if appropriately harsh steps were taken against perpetrators we would see less of this activity;

    He’s just ‘spitballin’ lol. *headdesk*

    No. Kidding. I honestly cannot tell if this was sarcastic or a genuine brilliant thought he just had.

  224. I’ve never posted here before although I’ve been reading here daily for about 4 yrs. I found this site while researching my former church’s practices (an elder ruled Calvary Chapel with it’s share of John Piper/Francis Chan/David Platt lemmings). The church was suddenly demanding we sign a church covenant and this website was instrumental in my walking out and never looki back. Thanks to a major medical event I had about that time, I now struggle with putting words and thoughts together and am embarrassed to write anything so stay in lurk mode, but in light of Jule’s story, felt compelled to come out of hiding..

    I suffered sexual abuse from the time I was maybe 4-5 until I was at least 13. My abuser was not clergy but was a “pillar of the community” so I was dealing with much the same situation as Jules. Between threats, shame and being a shy introvert, I did not get up the nerve to tell anyone until I was about 19-20 yrs old. To my shock, they knew, or at least strongly suspected. The person I told was in a positon to take action, instead it was blown off as of little consequence. It took another 20 yrs before I told another trusted person just the most basic details. They felt I should have put it in the past and forgotten about it many years earlier.. I have tried, but sexual abuse is not something you “get over” or “put behind you”…ever. It affects who you are, the choices you make, how you react, and how you view yourself and others for the remainder of your life. It never goes away. I know, I am a widow nearing retirement age and still don’t fit iin anywhere socially. Other than family functions, I prefer to be alone most of the time, convinced everyone else sees me as defective in some way. The saddest part is I was not the only victim of this man, he abused both my siblings (who had their own set of problems) and many, many other children. Like many abusers, he joined groups with many children, and convinced parents to leave their children with him for days/weeks at a time. My best guess, with absolutely no exaggeration, is that he had upwards of 500 victims over his lifetime, possibly many more. One of his own daughters committed suicide, I have my suspicions as to why. So far as I know, not one child told, or at least not to anyone who reported it. He died with a clean and glowing record. However, he’s in Jesus’ hands now.

    I am 99.9% certain his wife knew everything. There was no way she could not have known. She chose to make herself scarce and leave him alone with his young victims. It would have caused considerable social embarrassment and a loss of income, too high a price to pay, apparently. I don’t know if AS’s wife knew prior to Jules’ story, I suspect she did not, at least not the whole picture. The point is, she does know now yet still chooses to defend him, likely for the same reasons my abuser’s wife looked the other way…life might get uncomfortable. Because she did not do the actual abusing is no reason to leave her out of this. I would have more respect for her if she chose to say/do nothing until she’s had time to digest this whole mess and make a decision. Instead, she is choosing not to upset the apple cart, which IMHO now makes her fully a part of this along with AS, CC and others.

    Jules’ story has been a very difficult one for me to read, there have been many PTSD moments and many nights of tears, for her, for myself, and for the multitude of abused children out there. The one bit of sanity in all this is knowing the lies, smoke and mirrors, etc will never fool God. There may or may not be consequences in this life but there will be a reckoning some day. It may come sooner than any of them think. For now, I thank God that women like Jules are having the courage to come forward, and that they are being believed. I thank Him for blogs like this where people are getting the word out and supporting the victims.

    I apologize for this overly long, rambling, poorly written post but just needed to get some of this out. I believe Jules and pray for her healing. I thank her for coming forward.

  225. I have a few questions for anyone who heard the live broadcast:

    In the first published segment, Ben doesn’t introduce Andy, except to say that he knows him from attending Highpoint Church. He doesn’t introduce Jules. He doesn’t introduce the events at hand. It doesn’t feel like the beginning of the show, it feels like the middle (or like the missing Q&A section of the service at Highpoint Church on the previous Sunday).

    Am I missing something?

    Ben goes on to say, “I want people to know that, um, this is awkward for me, uh, that is just very clear, and I said that when I talked to Andy the first time.”

    What is he referring to when he says he talked to Andy the first time?

  226. @ Jen:
    Reading the SBC Voices comments from ‘pastors’ is fascinating sometimes, if also disgusting.

    Related to Andy (from the previous article) here from a man in the comment section:

    It’s gone on for as long as I’ve been in ministry (24 years at this point). I was even *told* by a pastor when I was a young (under 22) youth minister that if ended up “fooling around” with one of the youth girls, I’d have to resign…but he’d help me find another place if I was repentant.

    I am so disgusted by this I could spit.

  227. Mary Yoder wrote:

    @ Jen:
    Jen, I am surprised you recommended SBC Voices. Did you not see this article from a few days ago? “If the wife is Queen?” http://sbcvoices.com/if-the-wife-is-queen-is-the-husband-king-egalitarianism-equality-or-veiled-matriarchy/

    Lol. Oh that article is practically egalitarian compared to what Jared Moore used to teach. He was from the Driscoll wing of “Husband as Prophet, Priest and King”.

    Cracks me up how they never go back and clean up their old teaching as if it never happened. I think the Deebs once offered to buy his church a phone. But it looks like he is now a teaching assistant at SBTS. Big dream for Jared who adores Mohler.

  228. @ Lea:
    I doubt that would have been standard operating procedure in the early church: sin, repent, move along to another church … sin repent, move along to another church … etc.

  229. Bio of Attorney Scott Fredricks, hired by Highpoint as ‘independent counsel’ to assess Andy Savage, on his law firm’s website:

    http://canteyhanger.com/attorneys/scott-fredricks/

    “Scott Fredricks has represented clients in complex commercial cases including antitrust, copyright, patent, securities and trademark issues since joining Cantey Hanger in 1999. Scott and his wife, Shelley, have four boys at home and are active members of Fort Worth Presbyterian Church.”

  230. Lydia wrote:

    Lol. Oh that article is practically egalitarian compared to what Jared Moore used to teach.

    Jared CBMW/ESS Moore!

  231. Please, please stop trying to accuse, judge or cast aspersion on Mrs. Andy Savage, her motives and husband supporting gestures (if any). This has to stop. She is not the focus. What happened to Jules at the hands of single youth pastor Andy Savage is the focus.

    It is a waste of time *and wrong* to speculate on what a wife does or doesn’t know about her husband’s actions, nor speculate on what we think she should do. If at this time, Mrs. S chooses to stand by Andy it is in no way remarkable. I’m sure she is in a lot of pain right now, as this situation is none of her doing. It is Andy who is responsible for the fallout of his prior actions having a devastating impact on his wife and family.

    I believe Jules and completely support her seeking justice in this matter. I do not support making negative comments about Andy’s wife.

  232. Song of Joy wrote:

    I do not support making negative comments about Andy’s wife.

    Agreed. It’s not right for commenters to take the low road at this point. Stay on the ridge and stay focused on “Mr.” Savage.

  233. Lea wrote:

    Related to Andy (from the previous article) here from a man in the comment section:
    It’s gone on for as long as I’ve been in ministry (24 years at this point). I was even *told* by a pastor when I was a young (under 22) youth minister that if ended up “fooling around” with one of the youth girls, I’d have to resign…but he’d help me find another place if I was repentant.

    I saw that too. Reprehensible. The guy who posted it knows that’s the wrong way to think and behave. I do think that things are changing, but slowly.

  234. Lea wrote:

    One of the Kens keeps trying to say that he wasn’t in the original thread. I guess they think this is some sort of defense but to me it seems to be of the ‘she’s 18/17, it’s legal’ variety which carries no weight with me.

    He was certainly not comparable to a janitor. I’m not even sure how they think these arguments are helpful.

    I’m the “one of the Kens” you mentioned in your above post. I’ve attempted to point out that the title “Youth Pastor” is meaningless absent an explanation of the duties and responsibilities of that title. Andy’s “Youth Pastor” position could have been nothing more than providing glorified babysitter services to the youth group on one extreme to providing one-on-one spiritual guidance in private to a guilt ridden youth group member on the other extreme.

    I’m aware that pastor may be used in other titles such as “Vision Pastor” or “Music Ministry Pastor” These titles like “Youth Pastor” need to address the duties and responsibilities and the nexus to the word “pastor” being included in the title. In other words they need to explain the significance is the word “pastor” being included in the title.

    I think I am asking fair questions, but I have yet to read any response to my comments that provides that explanation.

  235. okrapod wrote:

    And I know for sure that when she gave birth to those children she acquired a biologically driven responsibility to act in the best interests of the children.

    I had forgotten to included that in my previous comment. Yes, a good mother will weigh all the plus and minus factors involved and use those to arrive at a decision that’s in the best interests of her kids.

  236. From the OP – Savage did not tell us what he meant by openness and transparency

    There can probably be no greater indictment of the American church, at least certain segments of it, than the above statement. When terms openness and transparency need to be defined or else face the diluting waters of nuance, you know that for men like Savage, Conlee, et al, truth is relative and trust is conditional.

    This raises the question (which may be written upstream – I have not looked): what Jesus are they preaching? It would seem that the Jesus they preach is one who looks remarkably similar to their own reflection.

    And people assert that post-modernism is passe. I say – Nay nay (a la John Pinette)

  237. @ Jerome:
    Thanks.
    I had a strange thought while watching. If I randomly met him on the street, and had only a similar 1-2 minute interaction, I would presume he was likely gay.

  238. @ Ken G:
    Regardless of their defn of “Youth Pastor”, Savage obviously outranked “Sunday school teacher”, or the word “pastor” wouldn’t be tacked on. What if he had just been an SS teacher? Would that have made a difference?

  239. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Clay Crouch wrote:

    Thersites wrote:
    “I stepped away from ministry completely, for a season”

    Translation: “I stepped away from ministry for a very short while.”

    i.e. “Just until all the heat blows over.”

    “Until I was able to find another job.”

  240. @ Lea:
    Toastmasters, as well as high school and college speech classes, teach to just remain silent as opposed to “um,” etc.

  241. @ Lyn:
    Lyn, I am so sorry to hear of your suffering, & that of other children. It’s just heartbreaking you weren’t listened to properly, & that your abuser was allowed to just keep on abusing. How could they do that?

    I wish you & all his other victims all good things.

  242. @ Lyn:
    Lyn.
    Some people need to think out loud. I often do. I don’t think any apology is warranted, nor where you rambling. You where just thinking.

    There is a season for every purpose……a time to kill and a time to heal…..a time of war and a time of peace.

    It does not sound that you have a clear understanding of what season this is. You have not gone to war, but you have seemingly never been at peace. Jules went to war.

    What I do know….. A wise man is strong, yea, a man of knowledge increases strength.
    For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war; and in the multitude of counsellors there is safety….

    Go seek counsel. From women. Not pastors. Perhaps include Dee. (you speculated 500. that means what…a recognizable or major ministry setting? )
    You could include a non Christian therapist in order to receive an outside opinion as well. I recomend it.

    Choose your advisors carefully. Do not ask personal friends, or family, to exhibit wisdom and bravery that is beyond their capacity.

    Finally, whatever is meant to be, is meant to be. Do not fear the cost, only be fearless.

  243. Muff Potter wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    And I know for sure that when she gave birth to those children she acquired a biologically driven responsibility to act in the best interests of the children.

    I had forgotten to included that in my previous comment. Yes, a good mother will weigh all the plus and minus factors involved and use those to arrive at a decision that’s in the best interests of her kids.

    A Christian mother follows Jesus, tells the truth, and figures that is more important than owning a house with an extra game room.

    This “biological imperative” argument is a slippery slope, as Andy Savage could claim he was following his own to have sexual relations with a 17 year old girl in his care. He could also claim that he should continue to cheat, lie, and loot from the church, as it best provides for his family. Conlee is certainly following this line of thinking in his perception of a necessary “survival at all costs” (as long as those costs are borne by someone else). (It should be noted that “survival” is frequently being conflated with “comfort.”)

    I state this not to wade back into treacherous waters, but I can see what is coming…the church will soon tell us that Andy must be kept on staff, because…”think of his wife and kids!” (as if there is no other way to make a living & as if were not her choice to stay with a lying schemer)…cue the manipulation music.

    I’ve seen this before with churches that hired and covered for video voyeur, Rick Trotter. I’ve seen Downline Ministries and Fellowship Memphis bring admitted child-molester, Pete Newman, to work in the ministry in Memphis WHILE HE WAS OUT ON BAIL! When pressed for justification, one elder said, “What did you want us to do…let his family starve?” (BTW, “no”—I just knew he shouldn’t be in the ministry and that there were other ways to provide for his wife and kids–if that was actually the main concern— than moving them all to Memphis to work around an unwary congregation.) It should be noted, too, that Newman’s wife was aware he was out on bail, aware that he had written a confessional letter to Kanakuk, and aware that her husband was under court-order to not be anywhere near kids while out on bail, yet she felt no moral compunction to cut off the church cash flow and do what was right.

    “Complicity” is “being involved with others in a state of wrongdoing.” Covering for lying spouses meets that simple definition, whether or not we emotionally want it to do so.

    The thing Highpoint wants congregants to do is turn their brains off and just “feel.” It is a trap. Many will feel sorry for Andy that he lost his status for sin from years ago (even though it was serious and disqualifying); it does not excuse his actions and especially the current ones of truth manipulation, blame the victim, etc. Many will feel sorry for Chris Conlee, who did not commit the sexual actions, but covered for his friend/business partner. Many will feel sorry for the sheeple who attack those on the side of justice for Jules & who continue to support a clearly discredited church leadership, as they are, too, emotionally attached to Savage/Highpoint and are confused and hurt by this whole mess. None of that earns a pass for wickedness.

    Dealing with facts that fly in the face of what we wish to be true takes moral courage. Amy Smith at Watchkeep significantly states in a pinned Tweet at the top of her Twitter account that her parents will no longer speak to her, nor see their grandkids, because Amy exposed a child-molester cover-up at her home church; Amy has the moral courage and love of Jesus to do what is right, even when it hurts. Thank goodness we have people like that among the bulk of society’s cowards and cultists who put their biological imperatives first.

    Again, I know this is emotionally difficult. Every day, real people make real decisions in the real world to choose between doing what is righteous (often with consequence), turning a blind eye to evil, or participating in wickedness and deception; we can’t give those who choose the wrong path our blessing (whether tacit or active), as God does not. (“Better is an open rebuke than hidden love.”–Prov. 27:5)

    We should be careful to not hold different standards for the people we like most or best identify with in the midst of sin. We should love fully and righteously, even when it hurts. Doing otherwise concedes to and excuses evil. All standards disappear.

    We just need to be careful. Even with the best of intentions, in excusing those promulgating a lie, we have some great people on the forum advocating for something emotionally satisfying, but intellectually dishonest. The only way Highpoint can get a “win” for wrongdoing is to wield emotional control. It is what their PR pros are advocating.

    By the same token, I am sure that they would like to portray those criticizing the handling of this tragedy as uncaring and callous toward Amanda Savage; that is emotional manipulation and deflection. It will be another tactic of their professional spin doctors.
    Beware!

  244. @ Lyn:
    Not a long, rambling post. …. organized and well written!
    I’m glad you came out of the shadows – you don’t belong there.

  245. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    A Christian mother follows Jesus, tells the truth, and figures that is more important than owning a house with an extra game room.

    If Mrs savage had been present when these things occurred with Jules, maybe you would have an argument about her lying. But she was not. The rest is uncalled for.

    I am, however, not sympathetic to the idea of stopping things because he has a wife and kids. Most predators do.

  246. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    @ Lyn:
    Not a long, rambling post. …. organized and well written!
    I’m glad you came out of the shadows – you don’t belong there.

    Indeed.

    It is not enough for children and adults to report, they must be believed and people must act.

  247. Ken G wrote:

    I’m aware that pastor may be used in other titles such as “Vision Pastor” or “Music Ministry Pastor” These titles like “Youth Pastor” need to address the duties and responsibilities and the nexus to the word “pastor” being included in the title. In other words they need to explain the significance is the word “pastor” being included in the title.

    Jules said herself that she had told Savage in confidence about her past abuse. And he probably used that against her. For me, that is clergy abuse.

  248. Lydia wrote:

    Lol. Oh that article is practically egalitarian compared to what Jared Moore used to teach

    I couldn’t even get through it! When anyone made a point in the comments he said stuff like ‘letting your wife get extra sleep when she needs it is not in the bible’. Drivel.

  249. ishy wrote:

    Ken G wrote:

    I’m aware that pastor may be used in other titles such as “Vision Pastor” or “Music Ministry Pastor” These titles like “Youth Pastor” need to address the duties and responsibilities and the nexus to the word “pastor” being included in the title. In other words they need to explain the significance is the word “pastor” being included in the title.

    Jules said herself that she had told Savage in confidence about her past abuse. And he probably used that against her. For me, that is clergy abuse.

    True. Thank you ishy.

  250. Connie wrote:

    In the first published segment, Ben doesn’t introduce Andy, except to say that he knows him from attending Highpoint Church. He doesn’t introduce Jules. He doesn’t introduce the events at hand. It doesn’t feel like the beginning of the show, it feels like the middle (or like the missing Q&A section of the service at Highpoint Church on the previous Sunday).

    Am I missing something?

    I don’t think you’re missing anything; I think you (and I) were not the target audience for what is really just propaganda. I think that interview was to continue to control the narrative to the Highpoint members so they wouldn’t demand Savage’s resignation. They had already had the service and some probably knew Ferguson already from his former membership.

  251. Lea wrote:

    If Mrs savage had been present when these things occurred with Jules, maybe you would have an argument about her lying. But she was not.

    She knows lies are being told and does nothing to correct the record, because doing so would not be beneficial to her maintaining her current lifestyle. Conlee does the same.

    Her husband said in his “official statement”:

    “The incident happened before Amanda and I were engaged and I shared every aspect of this situation with her before I asked her to marry me.”

    He either told her fully as stated (displaying her responsibility) or he threw her under the bus in a lie to garner sympathy, and she willingly abided. A good person does not abide in deception. Everybody makes their choices, she made hers (whether before marrying him, after, or both) regarding this matter. She has further been outspoken in an attempt to aid her husband’s deception.

    If she gets a pass, so does Conlee. They both are said to have fully known. Consequences are consequences.

    No flirtation with the slippery slope of allowances because of “feelings” should be made.

    Allows for the “Otter” defense. Very rousing, but shallow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PYb_anBMus

  252. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    She has further been outspoken in an attempt to aid her husband’s deception.

    We have one person who has made a statement to that effect. It could be true; it seems likely. But I think it’s a stretch to go after her at this point in time based on that one statement.

  253. On the other hand, we have tons of the own words of Savage, Conlee, and others that pretty much make it clear what kind of people they are. So I think that’s where the focus of this should be.

  254. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    If she gets a pass, so does Conlee.

    Wrong. Conlee hired him for the position of pastor. The questions about his fitness for that office are completely valid.

    Amanda married him. She didn’t hire him and she has not authority to fire him. That’s…not at all the same thing.

    Even if she publically trashed him and left him, he could still be pastoring the church because she had no control over that.

  255. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Everybody makes their choices, she made hers (whether before marrying him,

    You are holding her responsible for marrying him! That’s not right.

  256. ishy wrote:

    On the other hand, we have tons of the own words of Savage, Conlee, and others that pretty much make it clear what kind of people they are. So I think that’s where the focus of this should be.

    Exactly my point.

    As I said earlier, this is a deflection from be real issue, which is how abuse of power is treated within the church.

  257. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Andy’s wife is, in fact, complicit in the cover-up (whether for many years or just recently). She shouldn’t get a pass, strictly because she is a woman (I think we all respect women too much to infantilize them in this way).

    I’m not comfortable at this point saying either way about his wife.

    At this stage, I don’t know what she knows, what Savage told her, and if he talked to her, how accurate was the content of what he said, and when she learned what she knows (if anything).

    Re: Trotter’s wife, Sandusky’s wife, Bill Cosby’s wife, Driscoll’s wife. I have to take each wife on a case by case basis.

    Some of those women may have known, some didn’t know, some maybe knew but were being bullied by their spouse and were too afraid to act. Depending on factors like that, my opinion would change from woman to woman.

  258. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    A Christian mother follows Jesus, tells the truth, and figures that is more important than owning a house with an extra game room.

    What if her only option is living on the streets with her kids, out of their car, or in a day by day hotel room not knowing when if or how she’s going to be able to pay for the next day’s lodging, or how to feed the kids?

  259. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    She knows lies are being told and does nothing to correct the record, because doing so would not be beneficial to her maintaining her current lifestyle

    You are assigning a motive to her!!! And one not based on any factual info as far as I can tell. I don’t know of ANY evidence that shows she has done anything wrong at this point. Why do you keep harping on her? Is that the upstanding thing to do… go after the wife of a man who has done wrong?

    For all we know, Mrs. Savage is blameless and merely demonstrating the typical loyalty of a shell-shocked wife reeling from a fresh scandal of her husband’s making. We don’t know what she is thinking. Just because she apparently believes her husband’s story and is standing by him now, that doesn’t give you the right to keep making unfounded negative assertions about her.

    I fully believe and support Jules. But I am very turned off by unjustified comments attacking the wife of Andy Savage.

  260. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    “Complicity” is “being involved with others in a state of wrongdoing.” Covering for lying spouses meets that simple definition, whether or not we emotionally want it to do so.

    I’ve not been following the Andy Savage saga probably as thoroughly as some others here, but. So.

    Have there been any news reports of, or has A.S.’s wife admitted, what all she knows, and when she knew it, what exactly Savage told her about Jules, and, that yes, she’s covering for him now, and covering just to keep a 400K McMansion?

    I’ve so far not seen any detailed reports or a confession by the wife where she’s said exactly what she knows, when she learned it, and why she’s still with the husband, etc.

    I have no idea what’s going on with Savage’s wife and figured someone on here must know, there must have been some new development, since she became a topic of conversation? If there’s been no confession or more articles about her, I don’t know if it’s wise to make lots of assumptions about her either way.

  261. @ Lyn:

    Lyn,

    As a family here at TWW, we want to honor your courage in sharing some very personal experiences to help others. Your voice is needed here. We hope you will continue to share your thoughts.

  262. Daisy wrote:

    I have no idea what’s going on with Savage’s wife

    I have no idea about his wife. I calculated they must have dated about 9-10 years but that is all I know. He claims to have told her everything. She has neither confirmed nor denied it. There are 5 children involved, one of whom has Down’s syndrome. I bet she is busting her tush to protect them during this time.

  263. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    She knows lies are being told and does nothing to correct the record, because doing so would not be beneficial to her maintaining her current lifestyle. Conlee does the same.

    If she gets a pass, so does Conlee. They both are said to have fully known. Consequences are consequences.

    I am not grasping or seeing the wife and pastor parallel there.

    Conlee – he’s a pastor and says IIRC that he knew of Savage’s sexual abuse before taking him on. As an employer and church preacher, I can see holding Conlee accountable.

    The wife as far as I know does not hold a leadership position of any significance at the church or make money there?

    You said,

    He either told her fully as stated (displaying her responsibility) or he threw her under the bus in a lie to garner sympathy, and she willingly abided.

    My personal gut feeling is that Savage told her prior to marrying her what happened, but he omitted a lot of things.

    My guess is that he white-washed the story to make it sound like a consensual, pre-marital romp that happened when he was a naive young fool that he regrets now.
    So his wife probably thought, ‘well, he should not have been doing pre-marital diddling, but I guess I can overlook that and marry him anyhow.’

    You said,

    She knows lies are being told and does nothing to correct the record, because doing so would not be beneficial to her maintaining her current lifestyle

    This is a little too cut and dry for my tastes.

    I don’t know what her background is, but if she’s uneducated (no college degree), with no living family to help her, little to no job experience on a resume’, if she were to dump the husband or flatly contradict him publicly, where is she to go to get financial assistance, or a couch to crash on?

    Are you going to let her sleep on your sofa and support her until she can get a degree and a job so she can support herself?

  264. Lea wrote:

    AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Everybody makes their choices, she made hers (whether before marrying him,

    You are holding her responsible for marrying him! That’s not right.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    If she knew all the details (as stated by Savage in his “official statement”) BEFORE the proposal, then absolutely! Knowing as I do the other nefarious dealings of Conlee/Savage at Highpoint, I feel sure that she is/has been aware of his suspect character.

    If I known my girlfriend had a sexual encounter with a high school student while she was the youth pastor, I never would have asked her to marry me. If someone knows and accepts that, so be it, but they should be ready for eventual fallout (especially since the act was illegal even at the time).

    If I didn’t know she had done that, she got caught & called out while leading another ministry, and in her “official statement” she falsely claimed I knew it all along, I’d give her about 30 seconds to change that public statement before I made some public statements of my own!

    The “for better or worse” thing is not meant to be that you suck it up while your spouse lies to the public about you in an effort to cover his sexual misdeeds so that you can stay on the pulpit and preserve your income.

  265. Daisy wrote:

    AbuseCrusher wrote:

    A Christian mother follows Jesus, tells the truth, and figures that is more important than owning a house with an extra game room.

    What if her only option is living on the streets with her kids, out of their car, or in a day by day hotel room not knowing when if or how she’s going to be able to pay for the next day’s lodging, or how to feed the kids?

    ++++++++++++++++++
    Red herring. That is not her only option. If she wants to tell the truth and needs protection, I’d be happy to help provide for her (as I’m sure would countless others).

  266. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    No flirtation with the slippery slope of allowances because of “feelings” should be made.

    I should probably add I am not really going on “feelings” when I made my posts to you above about this, and you keep bringing this up in relation to Lea, when you reply to her.

    I find it a bit patronizing any time a person (usually male, and I don’t know if you are male/female) keeps telling someone with an obviously female-looking name (“Lea”) that she must be objecting to your points all based on nothing but “feelings.”

    We’re getting into that trope about how men are logical and rational, but if women disagree or fight back on something, it must be due to “Feelings!,” “Emotions!,” and it’s, “Hormonal,” and Lea, why aren’t you taking your Midol now, if you know what I mean.

    If it ever turns out that Mrs. Savage is playing cover up for her spouse, I would say I would think poorly of her for it, but at this point, I’ve not seen anything new to prove that either way.

  267. Song of Joy wrote:

    You are assigning a motive to her!!! And one not based on any factual info as far as I can tell. I don’t know of ANY evidence that shows she has done anything wrong at this point. Why do you keep harping on her? Is that the upstanding thing to do… go after the wife of a man who has done wrong?

    I’m not Abuse Crasher, but I think I know how he may respond here. 🙂

    He will likely point to known cases of wives who did know the entire time that their pastor husband was a dirt bag (such as Trotter’s wife), yet did nothing.

    Which is why I told Abuse Crasher several posts above I take each wife of each dirt bag on a case by case basis.

    Some wives know, some don’t, and even some of the ones who do are also victims (the husband abuses them as well, and they are too afraid to leave, divorce, or go to the cops).

    There are different factors at play with each couple, and I don’t know enough about Mrs. Savage to make a big conclusion at this point.

  268. Daisy wrote:

    Some wives know, some don’t

    This is an excellent general point. I think reading all then wives in one of julie Anne’s threads had been eye opening on that score.

    And I found the ’emotions’ comments patronizing too. And wrong, really. The worst andys wife had done thus far is maybe send an email (unconfirmed) defending her husband. Not relevant to the main issue at all and she, of everyone, can be forgiven most for being ’emotional’.

  269. Song of Joy wrote:

    AbuseCrusher wrote:

    She knows lies are being told and does nothing to correct the record, because doing so would not be beneficial to her maintaining her current lifestyle

    You are assigning a motive to her!!! And one not based on any factual info as far as I can tell. I don’t know of ANY evidence that shows she has done anything wrong at this point. Why do you keep harping on her? Is that the upstanding thing to do… go after the wife of a man who has done wrong?

    For all we know, Mrs. Savage is blameless and merely demonstrating the typical loyalty of a shell-shocked wife reeling from a fresh scandal of her husband’s making. We don’t know what she is thinking. Just because she apparently believes her husband’s story and is standing by him now, that doesn’t give you the right to keep making unfounded negative assertions about her.

    I fully believe and support Jules. But I am very turned off by unjustified comments attacking the wife of Andy Savage.

    Relax.

    I know the people involved in this mess personally. My co-worker receives Ms. Savage’s notes to stop the “satanic attack” that is befalling this “innocent” ministry. My concerns are not “unfounded.”

    If the concern is that she would be “living on the streets” “out of her car”…not only is that blatantly never going to happen (as previously mentioned), but it does speak to her desire to not upset her personal comfort applecart.

    The only reason this got to be an issue is because someone had posted how sorry they feel for the wife of Savage. My suggestion was that she knows better and chooses (for whatever reason) not to do better. We shouldn’t reflexively defend her by virtue of gender. Conversely, if she allows her husband to continue to victim-blame Jules, lawyer up and hire investigative teams (that presumably investigate the victims and those who expose the perpetrator), and encourage the church to vilify those on the side of truth (and she has done all of these things), calling into question her guilt at some level is appropriate. If we feel the reason could really be abuse, then we need to send people to rescue her.

    Interesting article posted yesterday, BTW….

    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/california-pastor-used-church-to-satisfy-his-ftish-for-explicit-photos-and-his-wife-helped-lawsuit/

  270. Lyn wrote:

    I don’t know if AS’s wife knew prior to Jules’ story, I suspect she did not, at least not the whole picture. The point is, she does know now yet still chooses to defend him, likely for the same reasons my abuser’s wife looked the other way…life might get uncomfortable. Because she did not do the actual abusing is no reason to leave her out of this. I would have more respect for her if she chose to say/do nothing until she’s had time to digest this whole mess and make a decision. Instead, she is choosing not to upset the apple cart, which IMHO now makes her fully a part of this along with AS, CC and others.

    This is an excellent point.
    There are studies of predator men and their defender wives, how the defender wife plays her complicit part. Time will tell more about Savage’s wife, however, she has been able to see this play out like the rest of us. Moreover, she, like Conlee and others in leadership, has seen the trail of behavior of AS; AS’s inner circle has a view of the inside track.

    There have been a number of tweets about the legacy of AS in his various church positions – not pretty. Leans toward being somewhat of a pervert, according to these eye-witnesses.

    There comes the day when the wife may have to decide whether to stand by her man – Jesus – or not. Just like the congregation had to decide a Sunday ago and they came up short, which is now headlined around the world.

  271. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    If she knew all the details (as stated by Savage in his “official statement”) BEFORE the proposal, then absolutely!

    I said when this story first broke that there is no way I’d walk into a marriage knowing my fiance’ was a pervert.

    Most women aren’t going to do that, either. My guess is that Savage portrayed his sexual abuse of Jules as a harmless, consensual teeny fun romp, which a lot of people are guilty of.

    So, the wife probably reasoned, ‘well, that’s not ideal, but I can forgive that.’

  272. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    We shouldn’t reflexively defend her by virtue of gender

    You are completely misrepresenting why she is being defended.

    Comment on her email (assuming it exists), sure. But that doesn’t make her complicit in andys crime.

    And telling someone to ‘relax’ is condescending.

  273. Lea wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Some wives know, some don’t

    This is an excellent general point. I think reading all then wives in one of julie Anne’s threads had been eye opening on that score.

    And I found the ’emotions’ comments patronizing too. And wrong, really. The worst andys wife had done thus far is maybe send an email (unconfirmed) defending her husband. Not relevant to the main issue at all and she, of everyone, can be forgiven most for being ’emotional’.

    At a minimum, she knows, now. She’s not calling from the mountaintops to straighten the record or to check on Jules, is she? Nope. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    And the messages you say are “unconfirmed” are, in fact, “confirmed.”

    Do we forgive all of Andy’s transgressions, too, then? This is a very emotional time for him, as well.

    While many of these churches are misogynistic, I do think it is insulting to assume Ms. Savage is too stupid to understand right from wrong in the midst of her emotions.

  274. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Red herring. That is not her only option. If she wants to tell the truth and needs protection, I’d be happy to help provide for her (as I’m sure would countless others).

    No, at this stage, I’d say your odd obsession with the wife is the red herring.

    As I said, I don’t know Mrs. Savage’s financial situation.

    If she’s broke, no living family, no job, etc, yeah, she may very well have to live out of a car or in a hotel.

    Are you going to fund her, provide her and her five kids with a couch to crash on and help her get a college degree so she can get a job and support herself?

    If she dumps the husband pronto, as you are chomping at the bit for her to do, she has to support herself and their five kids some way. That is a very real concern for her, not a red herring.

    You said, “If she wants to tell the truth and needs protection, I’d be happy to help provide for her (as I’m sure would countless others)”

    I don’t know about that. What if she needed help past a six month point? Is your offer of help contingent on how she apologizes and the content, and did she do so sincerely enough and 546 other factors? If so, if I were her, I’d not count on you as a backup plan.

  275. Lea wrote:

    But that doesn’t make her complicit in andys crime.

    +++++++++++
    Very simply, if she knew before marrying him, it does.

    If she is only complicit in the cover-up now (and she is) then she is complicit is a massive fib perpetrated on the church and on Jules.

    Neither is admirable.

  276. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    If the concern is that she would be “living on the streets” “out of her car”…not only is that blatantly never going to happen (as previously mentioned), but it does speak to her desire to not upset her personal comfort applecart.

    Dude, no. You’re moving the goal posts, for one thing. You first were depicting her as someone who did not want to give up her 8,000 sq ft McMansion that comes with the Billards room.

    When I pointed out, we don’t know her situation.

    If she divorces or speaks out against Mr. S (and he thus gets angry and divorces her), what is her fate? Does she have a family that will take her in? Does she already have a paycheck? Does she have a college education so she can job hunt? Those are all very real concerns for her.

    Not wanting to be destitute and not wanting to live under a cardboard box on a street is hardly the same thing as not wanting one’s personal comfort apple cart disturbed.

    You brush off her possible scenarios should she divorce the guy or he leave her as though it’s no biggie for her (or their kids).

    You’re showing about as much empathy for a possibly hurting / troubled / or in-trouble person as Conlee and that goofy church are. You’re sort of coming across like the people you’re criticizing.

    You said
    “(as previously mentioned)”

    Er, no. It might. I seriously doubt you are going to follow up and sponsor Mrs. S and her five kiddos, especially if any apology she makes is not in your opinion and demanding standards, up to snuff.

  277. @ AbuseCrusher:
    You make a great point at the end. I have seen the “it will hurt the family” used as a censoring tactic many times. And it does hurt the family. That’s what bad decisions and behavior do—hurt the innocent.

    As far as the wife is concerned, she won’t be the first or last young lady to believe what she was told and put trust where it wasn’t wise. DV centers are full of them, for example. I”m not big on kicking the collateral damage when they are down. She has 5 kids to be concerned about. And her life might be changing drastically, anyway. She has enough on her plate.

    Now, if we are talking about a wife who looks the other way and even protects a pervert —that is an accomplice and a whole other issue. I say, take them down. And don’t spare the horses.

  278. @ Daisy:

    I swear to goodness this is one of those very things I ran into after Mom died – these folks who say they’re Christian but very black and white, unloving, etc, that helped drive me from Christian Ave on to Agnosticism Blvd.

    Christians sometimes ask, “Why are you doubting the Christian faith now? How can you think of leaving?”

    See Abuse Crusher’s posts to me so far if you want one clue as to why. LOL. Mercy.

  279. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Point 1
    My suggestion was that she knows better and chooses (for whatever reason) not to do better.
    Point 2.
    We shouldn’t reflexively defend her by virtue of gender.

    Dealing with Pt 2. first.

    I haven’t read every post here, but has anyone just given Mrs. S the green light across the board based on her biological sex alone?

    I haven’t seen that. I’m not giving her a full pass based on gender alone.

    Point 1, you said,
    “My suggestion was that she knows better and chooses (for whatever reason) not to do better.”

    This part of your statement here, “(for whatever reason)” really matters.

    That is part of the unknown information I’d have to know before I’d feel comfortable pardoning her or condemning her or whatever.

    The situation may be more complicated than you are presenting it or perceiving it.

    Like the time someone on this blog was blaming Grace Driscoll left and right for enjoying the McMansion paid for by Marky Mark Driscoll.

    The problem is, Grace was probably a victim of Mark’s, too. He sounded like an abuser and controller of her, going back to their college days.

    The only way gender may factor in here is how Christian women are indoctrinated differently from men folk: to be passive little doormats.

    Some of us Christian ladies are told or were brought up to think it’s godly and good for us to be compliant, unquestioningly obedient drones.

    My Mom, God bless her, was a doormat, partly because she grew up in an alcoholic family -AND- learned stupid traditional gender roles from her church – she was codependent as a result.

    You can still know intellectually what is “right” but emotionally not know how to deal with the right thing to do, or not have the courage (from years of being an emotionally abused doormat) to do something about it.

    I know my parents (who raised me to be codependent) did not equip me to fully make choices for myself, think for myself in relationships, or have the self esteem to stand up to jerks at all times, etc.

    Maybe Grace Driscoll and Andy Savage’s wife received the same sort of indoctrination from their parents or churches as they were growing up as I did, which is also likely the same type that left Jules vulnerable to going along with Savage, trusting him, not being able to fight back that night, etc.

    There are all sorts of variables going on we don’t know enough about to say, but you feel very confident based on one or two e-mails the wife supposedly sent out begging help for her husband or her church, and you draw all sorts of conclusions from that.

  280. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    While many of these churches are misogynistic, I do think it is insulting to assume Ms. Savage is too stupid to understand right from wrong in the midst of her emotions.

    It’s unrealistic to expect someone who may be in emotional duress to act in a purely logical and robotic manner about it and act instantly.

    You are too cut- and- dried about this.

  281. Lea wrote:

    AbuseCrusher wrote:
    Do we forgive all of Andy’s transgressions, too, then?
    – – –
    This type of argument feels disingenuous.

    I’m also not grasping it.

    Who was it that drove Jules down a dark road years ago and coerced her into playing tonsil hockey with genitalia – Andy Savage or Savage’s now wife?

    Did Mrs. S. pin the young lady victim down while Savage did his thing to her? Did the now-wife lure the young victim into the vehicle? I don’t think so.

  282. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Very simply, if she knew before marrying him, it does.

    No, it would make her naive or lacking morals on some level, but to be “complicit,” she would have to have KNOWN prior about his plans to sexually assault and done nothing about it, or aided him directly (tied the victim down) – and that sort of thing.

    I think what is the most likely scenario is that Savage lied to Mrs. Savage way back when before they married about what exactly happened that night: he said it was just a case of teen-age necking, or something of that nature.

  283. Daisy wrote:

    You said
    “(as previously mentioned)”

    Er, no. It might. I seriously doubt you are going to follow up and sponsor Mrs. S and her five kiddos, especially if any apology she makes is not in your opinion and demanding standards, up to snuff.

    As a matter of fact, I have a long history of taking in families in need. Did it for one this year, in fact. Provided clothing, Christmas presents, and counseling last month for another woman and her daughter leaving an abusive boyfriend. In short, you have no reason to doubt my sincerity. That said, I also understand that everyone on the interwebz is a ‘hero.” 🙂

    Look, I’m not blaming Amanda Savage as if she is the primary villain, here. Just not giving her a hall pass for her mishandling of her end, either.

    I have nothing to gain for any of this. I have stood up in person to abusers in Memphis (and elsewhere) and have given solace and voice to the victims to afraid to confront these evil dipsticks by themselves. I have watched as the pastors (and their wives) inflicted great pain on the victims simply to preserve their false veneer of “spotless” families. Most people typing on this forum will never have their professional lives, families, and safety threatened for standing up to expose sexual predators in the church and parachurch ministries…i have…and I was not even the victim in any of these cases…I just stand for those being bullied into silence… I’m a bit sick of the coddling of the pastorate and those who cover for them in any capacity (and, yes, very frequently that includes their spouses).

    So, I hope you’ll forgive me for being a bit short on patience. Fighting a fight with no reward and no end in sight gets tiresome. After so many battles on behalf of others, my tolerance for this church nonsense is thin.

    Don’t think for a single moment I expect anyone to feel sorry for me (any more than we feel sorry for the Deebs in pursuing their calling). I simply ask that you might give me benefit of the doubt in being knowledgeable about what is going on here.

  284. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    At a minimum, she knows, now. She’s not calling from the mountaintops to straighten the record or to check on Jules, is she? Nope. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    When a predator husband/father comes to light in the news, I am always in great admiration of the wives/mothers who pick up their children and get away from that guy, sometimes at great financial cost. Raw courage – those that do right by their children and admit they (the wife) were wrong about that guy they fell in love with (fell for) long ago. It’s got to be humiliating, heart-breaking, shattering their world. But, they are at a crossroads and they do right.

  285. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    If she knew all the details (as stated by Savage in his “official statement”)

    Here is where I stop with speculation regarding his wife. We have no idea what Savage told his wife then or now. We don’t know if he told the truth to her then or now, do we? So for me, that leaves too much open for speculation. My personal opinion is he has been able to waggle his way around for 20 years so I’m inclined to believe he has lied along the way, possibly to his wife as well.

  286. @ AbuseCrusher:

    You act as though you have all the facts already, but I have not seen you link to any material that shows any.
    You just mention a time or two an e-mail the wife may have sent out recently defending her husband and make several assumptions off that, ones I am not comfortable buying into at this stage.

    And sorry, but if I were Mrs. S., I would not count on you for financial support and a place to stay, should she need one.

    You said,

    “In short, you have no reason to doubt my sincerity.”

    Yes, I do. I’ve been let down by self-professing Christians before.

    And for all I know, you could be a Penguin typing these messages. Any one can claim anything online.

    You said,

    Look, I’m not blaming Amanda Savage as if she is the primary villain, here.

    You’re sure behaving up and down this thread like she’s the main villain.

    It manages to detract from the one who is, Andy Savage, and secondly, the pastors at the church who knew about him, hired him anyhow, and who continue to act as his apologists.
    They’re the ones who are behind his employment at the church, not the wife.

    You said,

    I’m a bit sick of the coddling of the pastorate and those who cover for them in any capacity (and, yes, very frequently that includes their spouses).

    That only applies in cases where the spouses knew and had the emotional/financial and whatever else capacity to leave or do something.

    Not all spouses know or have the ability to leave or change anything.

    In some of the cases I’ve seen, the guilty spouse (who may be sexually abusing kids or whatever he or she is doing) is also abusing the innocent spouse (so the innocent spouse is another victim in need of aid or rescue, not blame).

    I am not going to assume from one or two e-mails sent by a wife which category she falls into.

    I’d have to read or hear more about her and what she knew and when before arriving at a conclusion.

  287. Daisy wrote:

    What if her only option is living on the streets with her kids, out of their car, or in a day by day hotel room not knowing when if or how she’s going to be able to pay for the next day’s lodging, or how to feed the kids?

    I was just gonna’ say ‘Biblical Ethereals’ are great and lofty sentiments, but until you (generic you) have walked a mile in a woman’s moccasins who’s out on the street with her kids, that’s all they are, lofty sentiments, and little more.

  288. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Regardless of their defn of “Youth Pastor”, Savage obviously outranked “Sunday school teacher”, or the word “pastor” wouldn’t be tacked on. What if he had just been an SS teacher? Would that have made a difference?

    It doesn’t to me, but apparently it does to Lea because she brought it up and associated my name “Ken G” with a rumor going around that the State of Texas wouldn’t recognize Andy as a pastor and implied (see comment # 8 in this thread) that I’m providing a defense. By the way, I’m unaware that the bible even mentions pastor, but to Lea it seems the word pastor is sacrosanct.

    I think you made my point when you wrote, “Savage obviously outranked Sunday school teacher, or the word pastor wouldn’t be tacked on.” So are we to conclude that you mean the word pastor is simply used to designate a rank or pecking order in a church and nothing more? Sorry, but I think the word pastor designates more and that’s why I’ve focused on attempting to learn of the duties and responsibilities.

    The State of Texas may or may not have recognized Andy as a pastor. But how would they make that determination if there is no definition for the word pastor?

    In conclusion, it wouldn’t make a difference (to me) Whether an individual has pastor tacked on to their title, is called a Sunday school teacher or even has no title.

  289. ishy wrote:

    Jules said herself that she had told Savage in confidence about her past abuse. And he probably used that against her. For me, that is clergy abuse.

    Ishy, there is no need to speculate whether Andy used or did not use the confidential information about Jules past abuse against her. Jules can provide that answer if she wants to. But if Andy shared that confidential information with another individual, he would be in violation of Rule 505 because Jules thought he was clergy (pastor in the title) even if the State of Texas didn’t recognize Andy as clergy.

  290. Daisy wrote:

    And sorry, but if I were Mrs. S., I would not count on you for financial support and a place to stay, should she need one.

    ++++++
    I am actually very sincere that I’d help. However, I do feel confident in any event that she’d not be “homeless” and “in the streets with her kids”, as her parents live just 6 miles away in a huge (nearly 8,000 SF house with 8 baths) house. Cue the sad Sarah McLaughlin music (“In the Arms of an Angel”) over a commercial of shoeless kids looking in dumpsters for food, I suppose.

    I have not walked in her moccasins, nor has she in mine. However, I have stood up to stop lying in the church done to protect predatory ministers and have gladly been willing to pay the costs involved (and have done it even when it cost my family significantly). I’ve had opportunities to stay silent in the face of church abuses, and instead chose to pay the price for doing what is right. So I do know a bit about the biblical concept of “swearing to one’s own hurt.” Doing right when it costs you something tends to indicate which team you’re on.

    This case at it’s genesis really is about Andy Savage’s misdeeds and a single victim, but has blown up into an exposing of the Ministry Industrial Complex, which has many tentacles, vested interests, players, dependents, and victims. The first victim of the MIC tends to be the truth.

  291. @ Lyn:
    Lyn, thank you for feeling safe here and for writing your thoughts in an understandable and clear manner. I lurked for years also, until this story came out. Life is hard and tragic for so many. I agree with you about AS’s wife. And time will tell.

  292. @ Lyn:
    Thank you for sharing, Lyn. I too agree with your view about AS’s wife. Your comments were very clearly written.

  293. Ken G wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    One of the Kens keeps trying to say that he wasn’t in the original thread. I guess they think this is some sort of defense but to me it seems to be of the ‘she’s 18/17, it’s legal’ variety which carries no weight with me.

    He was certainly not comparable to a janitor. I’m not even sure how they think these arguments are helpful.

    I’m the “one of the Kens” you mentioned in your above post. I’ve attempted to point out that the title “Youth Pastor” is meaningless absent an explanation of the duties and responsibilities of that title. Andy’s “Youth Pastor” position could have been nothing more than providing glorified babysitter services to the youth group on one extreme to providing one-on-one spiritual guidance in private to a guilt ridden youth group member on the other extreme.

    I’m aware that pastor may be used in other titles such as “Vision Pastor” or “Music Ministry Pastor” These titles like “Youth Pastor” need to address the duties and responsibilities and the nexus to the word “pastor” being included in the title. In other words they need to explain the significance is the word “pastor” being included in the title.

    I think I am asking fair questions, but I have yet to read any response to my comments that provides that explanation.

    Even a glorified babysitter has a position of authority, which has huge responsibilities attached to it. There is no explanation possible that will clear Andy Savage.

  294. My take on the wife…. she knew somehing before she married him. We don’t know what. We know Andy Savage skirts the truth at best and flat out lies at worst. They have a cushy lifestyle, five sons, one with Down’s. When the story broke i can only imagine what was going on in her mind. Other than marrying a sexual predator, her biggest mistake was in sending out those emails. That made her a focus of attention. Perhaps it was suggested by those “wise counsellors” or something she decided on her own. But she blew it there.

    I believe he is as guilty as they come and should be tossed out of ministry forever. He could flip burgers somewhere. I don’t care! We all have compassion for innocent collateral damage, in this case their children. But to suggest that he be allowed to keep his position so he can feed his family is preposterous. (Not that anyone here is suggesting that. ) There are agencies in place to deal with that.

    Amanda Savage is a product of conditioning in churchianity. Many of us have been there. The “stand by your husband so God is glorified” teaching. This is what happens. Time for her eyes to open. She has a couple of choices. My money says she stays true to that conditioning. It will be far easier than leaving the jerk and raising your family alone.

    The clock is ticking….

  295. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    And sorry, but if I were Mrs. S., I would not count on you for financial support and a place to stay, should she need one.
    ++++++
    I am actually very sincere that I’d help. However, I do feel confident in any event that she’d not be “homeless” and “in the streets with her kids”, as her parents live just 6 miles away in a huge (nearly 8,000 SF house with 8 baths) house. Cue the sad Sarah McLaughlin music (“In the Arms of an Angel”) over a commercial of shoeless kids looking in dumpsters for food, I suppose.
    I have not walked in her moccasins, nor has she in mine. However, I have stood up to stop lying in the church done to protect predatory ministers and have gladly been willing to pay the costs involved (and have done it even when it cost my family significantly). I’ve had opportunities to stay silent in the face of church abuses, and instead chose to pay the price for doing what is right. So I do know a bit about the biblical concept of “swearing to one’s own hurt.” Doing right when it costs you something tends to indicate which team you’re on.
    This case at it’s genesis really is about Andy Savage’s misdeeds and a single victim, but has blown up into an exposing of the Ministry Industrial Complex, which has many tentacles, vested interests, players, dependents, and victims. The first victim of the MIC tends to be the truth.

    :thumsup

  296. Ken G wrote:

    By the way, I’m unaware that the bible even mentions pastor, but to Lea it seems the word pastor is sacrosanct.

    I was reacting to your comments because you seem to imply that there was no good reason anyone would see andy as a pastor, unless you saw his job description? And now you’re throwing this at me?

    Nonsense. My point has always been that Jules saw him as pastor, the church saw him as a pastor, and all the abuse of power issues were present.

  297. Lea wrote:

    I was reacting to your comments because you seem to imply that there was no good reason anyone would see andy as a pastor, unless you saw his job description? And now you’re throwing this at me?

    Nonsense. My point has always been that Jules saw him as pastor, the church saw him as a pastor, and all the abuse of power issues were present.

    No, it’s your comment that is nonsense. Would Jules and the church see an individual as a pastor who had the title “Janitorial Service Pastor”? Of course they wouldn’t. They would laugh because they know what he does (cleans the floors and stocks the restrooms) which doesn’t comport with any significance implied by the word pastor. Yet with Andy you believe everyone should see him as a pastor without knowing what he does and there there is something wrong with them (that’s me) if they should ask questions in an attempt to ascertain that significance.

  298. I find it very strange that AbuseCrusher has been allowed to completely derail this post, which by the way, was about BEN FERGUSON AND HIS ANGER.

    Why is that??????

    Instead, we have been subjected to a wildly irresponsible and ungentlemanly personal attack on Mrs. Andy Savage. Lots of negative speculation, no facts. I find it very cruel to attack the character of a wife *with no factual evidence* as if she herself is the accused perp her husband is.

    It is completely irrelevant that another woman in an abuse case, who after the facts have been revealed, has been proven to be an enabler to her criminal husband. We have all read about those stories.

    Mrs. S is a different individual, and the far more common scenario is that the wife is innocent and blindsided about what her husband has done.

    I don’t see how this continuous wife-bashing, speculative commentary is being constructive to the situation at hand.

    And, WHAT ABOUT BEN FERGUSON?????? I guess what he did is not worth discussing.(sarcasm)

  299. AbuseCrusher wrote:

    However, I do feel confident in any event that she’d not be “homeless” and “in the streets with her kids”, as her parents live just 6 miles away in a huge (nearly 8,000 SF house with 8 baths) house. Cue the sad Sarah McLaughlin music (“In the Arms of an Angel”) over a commercial of shoeless kids looking in dumpsters for food, I suppose.

    Or in the words of the prophet Linda Ronstadt:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRV84iDlvkE

  300. Ken G wrote:

    But if Andy shared that confidential information with another individual, he would be in violation of Rule 505 because Jules thought he was clergy (pastor in the title) even if the State of Texas didn’t recognize Andy as clergy.

    But “Seal of the Confessional” is ROMISH.

  301. Ken G wrote:

    Would Jules and the church see an individual as a pastor who had the title “Janitorial Service Pastor”?

    sigh.

  302. Could we please avoid commenting about Amanda Savage. Please put yourself in her shoes. I bet she didn’t realize how bad Savage’s organic escapade was. Remember, he admits to not telling some people the full story. She is probably trying to do everything she can to keep her family and her sanity together. Assume if she is sending out notes to folks that she is desperate and in much pain.

    Think about having your world turned upside down in the course of a just a couple of days. Suddenly, CBS and the NYT are discussing you husband’s actions. And think of her little boys, wondering why mommy is crying.

    All of their lives have changed forever. Savage is the only one to blame here. He put his family at risk by ignoring this situation for 20 years.That is the real result of the 20 years. It wasn’t “That was 20 years ago, get over it.” It was “That was 20 years ago and you had all that time to make it right. Why didn’t you?”

    Pray for their families.

  303. Ken G wrote:

    Yet with Andy you believe everyone should see him as a pastor without knowing what he does and there there is something wrong with them (that’s me) if they should ask questions in an attempt to ascertain that significance.

    Good night. Ken. Are you really that blind? Janitor Pastor. SMH How hard you are trying…

    Savage was a a youth pastor. he led meetings, led Bible studios, taught True Love Waits and took the kids skiing. Hew was a a Youth Pastor and abused his position. The church said he was one and he said he was one. He has written about being one.

    Andy Savage was a Youth Pastor who abused his position as clergy. Deal with it.

  304. Song of Joy wrote:

    And, WHAT ABOUT BEN FERGUSON?????? I guess what he did is not worth discussing.(sarcasm)

    I mean, he is a man. It’s much less fun to talk about when men are wrong? /AlsoSarcasm

  305. Ken G wrote:

    Yet with Andy you believe everyone should see him as a pastor without knowing what he does and there there is something wrong with them (that’s me) if they should ask questions in an attempt to ascertain that significance.

    I’m pretty sure Jules refers to him as having been her pastor in her story. Doesn’t that suggest at least one person saw him as a pastor?

  306. dee wrote:

    All of their lives have changed forever. Savage is the only one to blame here.

    *Thank you!*

    I apologize if I was too emotional in the last post. I didn’t intend to come across as yelling at all the kind folks who were also trying to object to and answer AbuseCrusher in a reasonable way. I just wanted him to drop the insinuations against Mrs. Savage.

  307. dee wrote:

    Ken G has been placed into moderation.

    Whew! Talk about somebody that just doesn’t get it! Do you reckon Ken G is a member of Highpoint?

  308. @ dee:
    Thank you.

    Praying. Good suggestion.

    So. To return to the thread… has BF tweeted an “Oops, sorry, I was mistaken” tweet yet?

    Not that I’m holding my breath or anything.

  309. @ refugee:
    I think he just passive aggressively stuck it into a broadcast while taking swipes at amy, but I couldn’t make it through the clip so you may want to listen for yourself..

  310. Oh, I understand that he offered some kind of apologetic rhetoric (not sure from the accounts I’ve read that it constitutes an actual apology or owning what he did). However, his ALL CAPS tweets (how many were there? 5? More?) have been all over Twitter.

    Thus, it would seem the appropriate place to print a retraction of his inflammatory (or do I mean defamatory?) charges.

    If I were a schoolmarm or headmaster, I might even assign him to write one tweet for each defamatory tweet. But even one tweet would be more than he has evidenced to date. (“I am sorry for flying off the handle and defaming Amy Smith in ALL CAPS when I did not have the whole story.” There. Even gave him a little bit of face-saving rhetoric there.)

    What he really needs, it sounds like, is a reality check. Kind of like the kid writing on the board in front of the class…
    I will not tweet furious-sounding, baseless accusations.
    I will not tweet furious-sounding, baseless accusations.
    I will not… (etc.)
    Lea wrote:

    @ refugee:
    I think he just passive aggressively stuck it into a broadcast while taking swipes at amy, but I couldn’t make it through the clip so you may want to listen for yourself..

  311. Max wrote:

    Whew! Talk about somebody that just doesn’t get it! Do you reckon Ken G is a member of Highpoint?

    Ken G. has been around for awhile. I have, however, failed to understand what he has been trying to convey on this thread. No amount of rules explained to the kids in the group would negate the responsibility of a leader of that group, no matter what his written responsibilities or titles state.

  312. Kathi wrote:

    Why don’t people understand that with the way our technology is today you cannot get away with changing the narrative? What good does it do to falsify an interview, then when you’re called out for it to be aggressive and defensive? It will come back to bite you in the ass because someone will find the truth.

    Actually, it is amazing how quickly and frequently ‘the truth’ can be memory-holed even in, rather, due to our amazing technological era. I am stunned at how articles that I had pulled up rather easily are ‘disappeared’ for one reason or another. Entire viewpoints or perspectives are effectively marginalized by our new controllers at Google. Doing any research on theological issues, for example, will pull you up pro-Calvinist returns that not only dominate, but are at times exclusive. I have been doing intensive research on the internet for decades, and the Google era has eliminated the possibility of finding genuine, unfiltered information. Entire histories of people, events or viewpoints vanish, never to be traced again, apart from a ‘sorry, this page is not archived’ notice, even with exact quotes and/or titles. Perhaps some perceive this as accidental.

  313. I had never heard of any of these people, but this Ben Ferguson sure made a fool of himself, and his non-apology blaming his “producer” was ridiculous.

    Thanks TWW for bringing this to light.

  314. MomKB wrote:

    I had never heard of any of these people, but this Ben Ferguson sure made a fool of himself, and his non-apology blaming his “producer” was ridiculous.

    Craft (behind the camera) are always expected to fall on their swords to protect the CELEBRITY Talent (in front of the camera).

  315. @ AbuseCrusher:

    Your attitude just blows.

    You continue to behave as though you know with exact certainty what the wife did or knows or knew – but you don’t.

    I’m not comfortable with throwing her to the wolves until and unless I have more information, not just hunches.

  316. Bridget wrote:

    Max wrote:

    Whew! Talk about somebody that just doesn’t get it! Do you reckon Ken G is a member of Highpoint?

    Ken G. has been around for awhile. I have, however, failed to understand what he has been trying to convey on this thread. No amount of rules explained to the kids in the group would negate the responsibility of a leader of that group, no matter what his written responsibilities or titles state.

    I got the impression—though I may well be mistaken—that he was trying to say that if there was some kind of tangible “legal” proof that AS was “officially” clergy (for example, ordination, getting pastoral tax benefits from the IRS, etc.) that the churches in Memphis and Texas would have no choice but to acknowledge what he did was clergy abuse.

    I don’t think he was saying that it wasn’t abuse if lacking official documentation. But I could have misread his comments.

    And now all of a sudden I am thinking of the US Postal Service officially “recognizing” Kris as Santa Clause in Miracle on 34th Street by sending all the children’s letters to the courtroom during the trial.

  317. refugee wrote:

    that the churches in Memphis and Texas would have no choice but to acknowledge what he did was clergy abuse.

    Well, those churches will not admit to anything as far as I can tell. Also, even if proven, it doesn’t matter because the SOL is expired.

  318. Bridget wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    that the churches in Memphis and Texas would have no choice but to acknowledge what he did was clergy abuse.

    Well, those churches will not admit to anything as far as I can tell. Also, even if proven, it doesn’t matter because the SOL is expired.

    I got the impression he thought andy wasn’t clergy, otherwise why so many comparisons to janitors and babysitters?

  319. Regarding all the discussion between differences between the Janitor and Pastor job titles.

    I’m sorry if this is the second time I posted to this thread before about this, but churches still get into trouble when even a church janitor sexually assaults kids and then covers it up.

    One example:
    Former Victory Christian [Church] janitor sentenced to 18 months for making lewd proposal to a child, October 2013
    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/former-victory-christian-janitor-sentenced-to-months-for-making-lewd/article_729bdcb9-de53-55ef-9f0c-789d66f36a84.html

    The church staff and pastors dragged their feet or tried covering up what happened at their church. One of their janitors raped one young teen girl on church grounds, and I think he also molested another child or two.
    They still got into all sorts of trouble over this, even though the perp’s job title was “janitor.”

  320. Lea wrote:

    I got the impression he thought andy wasn’t clergy, otherwise why so many comparisons to janitors and babysitters?

    Which is why I had a hard time figuring out his point.

  321. I’m not in the least surprised you have to screenshot stuff. I do that all the time too. It’s the only way to keep the scum from disappearing inconvenient truths.

  322. Truthseeker00 wrote:

    Entire viewpoints or perspectives are effectively marginalized by our new controllers at Google. Doing any research on theological issues, for example, will pull you up pro-Calvinist returns that not only dominate, but are at times exclusive.

    For what it’s worth, there’s an online PR “consultant” firm that was advertising on local AM talk radio. They speak of their services being able to bury bad press and put “YOUR side” first in all the search engines — for a fee, of course. And the ad NEVER mentions the word “Manipulation”…