1?

A succinct summary of events. Well done.

When I was a kid (12) I and a friend were accosted by some creep at a park when we were fishing. He came up and propositioned us and became a bit aggressive. I took a few swings at the guy with a brick and tried to bite him, the brick made contact but I did not get a good mouth full of an arm. He ran off. We reported it to police, this is back in the early 70’s. It was not seen as a big deal and was dismissed. Other things happened things I personally witnessed but I am fuzzy on. It was actually far more common than people let on in and out of the church. Back then it was viewed differently. I worked with people with disabilities who were viciously sexually abused by family or care providers or clergy.

One time I was at a funeral for a priest that passed on the very same day his sister passed, they were both religious. This priest could walk in between the most violent people I have ever met and they would stop and listen to him. I was in awe of this priest, but my evangelical experience taught me that God has a special express bus to hell for Catholics, especially priests. The day after the funeral this headline broke.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/09/12/jesuit-in-bellarmine-abuse-case-also-accused-of-misconduct-at-sacramento-school/

In my evangelical faith group, it was because Catholics worship Satan and because priests are celibate. I cant tell you how this broke my heart, it should not have but it did. The evangelical machine will prove to be far more complicit in abuse than the RCC ever even dreamed of.

It is clear that the story that is being told now is more about the current mishandling of the situation by Highpoint than about the original abuse. The original abuse was dreadful and the way the church handled it back then was abysmal. The way that some of the Highpoint members are still refusing to see things (even the things admitted by the perpetrator) shows exceptional blindness.

They accuse those who are seeking to hold pastors accountable of doing the work of Satan. They way things are being exposed seems rather to be the work of the Holy Spirit. So these modern day Pharisees who continue to put the blame on Jules appear to be repeating the gross error of the original Pharisees, who committed what the Lord Himself described as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the only unforgivable sin. Now that is a very serious position to put oneself in!

I expect a much higher standard from those that profess to be “Christians”. I am personally ashamed at the hypocrisy and the wagon circling. We all sin and when we honestly confess (is there anything God doesn’t know) our sins and ask for forgiveness, it will be given by a just, loving God.

@ Bryan:

The thing that I see over and over in situations like this is people equating forgiveness and freedom of consequences. If you forgive “whoever the perpetrator is” then all is well and everyone should continue on like nothing happened. There is still the law that has to be dealt with, not just in this case but many others that we see on this blog and others.

“The thing that I see over and over in situations like this is people equating forgiveness and freedom of consequences.”

What bothers me more is when they play the “Jesus forgives me” card. No, if you want absolution, you need your victim to forgive you.

@ Paul D.:
Yes, God forgives.
Victims forgive.
Churches forgive.
And forgiven predators can be outed and not granted position and privilege to prey again, registered as offenders for the protection of all.

I want to give Tarana Burke credit for originally creating the me too movement and credit Hannah Paasch and Emily Joy for starting #churchtoo.

@ Paul D.:

This, and it starts with real repentance and actual changing of behavior, not a let’s all stand up here and say how wonderful he/she is and is so repentant and all of you just need to stop with the nay saying and not talk about anything that transpired because if you do you are bitter and sinfully seeking vengeance.

Paul D. wrote:

What bothers me more is when they play the “Jesus forgives me” card. No, if you want absolution, you need your victim to forgive you.

Yes. I don’t care if Jesus forgives you, that’s between you (although I like the guy on twitter who said you better bring a note!).

In life, you need forgiveness from the one you wronged. You may or may not get it, and that has a whole lot to do with you. Some things are too big to forgive and sometimes people know you’re not really sorry. Andy only thinks he violated his ‘personal purity’ standards so why do his helpful spamy followers think Jules should forgive him? He won’t accept the gravity of what he did!

As for all the 20 years people, at the risk of posting in more than one thread, I think Anne Lamott has it right:

Anne Lamott — ‘You own everything that happened to you. Tell your stories. If people wanted you to write warmly about them, they should have behaved better.”

@deb

Highpoint Church Hits a Low Point

The manipulators at Highpoint thoroughly deserve it, but – admit it – you did enjoy writing that heading 😉

The aftermath of this sad chapter in the American church also revealed the hearts of some members at Highpoint and others sympathetic to abuser rather than victim. The blogosphere has been full of trash-talking commenters with little understanding of what has occurred here. It’s as if they collectively ask “What’s the big deal about a pastor having a sexual encounter with a member of his youth group?!” They just don’t get it!

Churches like Highpoint are using every gimmick they can to attract the culture, but don’t seem to be instilling Christian character after they get them there. I suspect there is a Highpoint-like church within reach of everyone reading this. America’s youth are flocking there to “experience” church with all the bells and whistles – cool pastors, cool bands.

Without getting on a band-wagon about New Calvinism again, this appears to be modus operandi at many reformed church plants around the country. New Calvinist pastors in their 20s-30s and their “elder” teams in their 20s-30s mimic message and method of what is working elsewhere to draw a crowd. It’s time for denominations, like SBC, to seriously consider what is going on as Generations X, Y, and Z seek the genuine among the counterfeit. Will young folks no longer respond to the Gospel if it is not filtered through hype?

Michael Flaherty wrote:

We all sin and when we honestly confess (is there anything God doesn’t know) our sins and ask for forgiveness, it will be given by a just, loving God.

Michael, this has never been about forgiveness. The primary concern here is about church leadership covering up and restoring a pastor who has failed morally. TWW commenters are not a cold-hearted bunch; most of us are Christians who just want church leaders to do the right thing. When a young pastor betrays the trust of the Body of Christ, he disqualifies himself from ministry.

Shannon H. wrote:

if forgiveness happens, that does not negate consequences

Amen.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

This type of thinking can lead to a belief that right behavior is not important as long as right beliefs are in place. This is not the historical teaching of Christianity.

We’ve had an outbreak of just that in the 21st century American church. When the priesthood lost their way in Israel “Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.”

After my hands on experiences with rape/ DV victims and facilitating sexual harassment training in organizations years ago, I have concerns with the #metoo movement— to be honest. I don’t equate how the church operates with how world operates. I still believe in due process and always will. I just think church is held to a higher standard. To me, for example, Savage disqualified himself as a minister no matter how it went down. We don’t need court to understand that. And still, had that law in Tx been in effect, he might be facing jail time. That is how serious it is in the world. The church should be a higher standard. Sadly, the church gurus in charge did not think that way.

I won’t be jumping on the #metoo movement bandwagon because it lumps in everything from rape to annoying flirting. It will hurt real victims. And many celebs who are pushing it are guilty of looking the other way for years, even though well heeled, and now use it for virtue signaling. Some even refuse to name their abuser now. That sort of thing hurts real “nobody” victims—- in the long run.

Ducking for cover.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
Same MO with child molestation. He skewered Penn State. After Mahaney, it became generic. What it said to me is there are PC victims.

Lydia wrote:

After my hands on experiences with rape/ DV victims and facilitating sexual harassment training in organizations years ago, I have concerns with the #metoo movement— to be honest. I don’t equate how the church operates with how world operates. I still believe in due process and always will. I just think church is held to a higher standard. To me, for example, Savage disqualified himself as a minister no matter how it went down. We don’t need court to understand that. And still, had that law in Tx been in effect, he might be facing jail time. That is how serious it is in the world. The church should be a higher standard. Sadly, the church gurus in charge did not think that way.
I won’t be jumping on the #metoo movement bandwagon because it lumps in everything from rape to annoying flirting. It will hurt real victims. And many celebs who are pushing it are guilty of looking the other way for years, even though well heeled, and now use it for virtue signaling. Some even refuse to name their abuser now. That sort of thing hurts real “nobody” victims—- in the long run.
Ducking for cover.

I agree. Awhile back i thought that given enough time the #metoo waters would be mddied and real victms would lose their voice.

Shannon H. wrote:

if forgiveness happens, that does not negate consequences

Consequences. Some defenders of Mr. Savage keep harping about the age of consent (17) in Texas, without seriously considering ‘who’ Mr. Savage was at the time … a youth pastor! Civil matters aside, he escaped proper church discipline in Texas and has enjoyed a prosperous ministry for the last 20 years. Some question the seriousness of the offense, but how serious a matter is this in the Kingdom of God? Is it too much to ask that ALL pastors – young and old – live more righteously? When they fail our trust, is it too much to ask that they face consequences for their actions? Some of us think that a “time-out” restoration process is not appropriate … disqualification from ministry should be the consequence. There are other places to serve in the Body of Christ for those who confess moral failure and repent of that sin, rather than church leadership.

Question: Do y’all believe Savage would have “taken a leave of absence” if the story hadn’t exploded on nationwide (maybe even worldwide) secular media?

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Question: Do y’all believe Savage would have “taken a leave of absence” if the story hadn’t exploded on nationwide (maybe even worldwide) secular media?

After that standing ovation?! Absolutely not!

Max wrote:

Civil matters aside, he escaped proper church discipline in Texas

This part is not getting enough attention. The leaders who let him get a pass are the root of the problem. Who was discipling him?

@ Mercy:
……

Agree as well.
Some of these Hollywood people were complicit in their silence. They knew but turned a blind eye….for years.
And, a few budding starlets and studs, had no issue participating in the casting couch, which further fueled the abusers into accepting their own behavior as, just part and parcel of doing business.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

The leaders who let him get a pass are the root of the problem.

Then take an axe to the root of the tree: Cotton, Bradley, Conlee, etc.

It appears that commenters at numerous blogs often neglect the fact this man appointed as a member of the pastoral care staff at the church, serving as the Youth Minister was discovered in a bedroom,…alone with Jules Woodson, engaged in tickling & touching this same 17 year old teenager BEFORE his admitted ‘mutual sexual incident’.

Corrective actions of some type (verbal or written record) were taken by the pastoral leadership, with Pastor Savage being confronted regarding that dangerously compromising position, and directed to never be alone with another female again. It would safely be presumed, that the actual nature of the physical activity (inappropriate ticking & touching) was equally addressed.

None of the narrative accounts I have (so far) read, indicate that Pastor Savage alerted anyone upon the realization that all the other Youth Group kids had departed the church premises, and he found himself alone again with Jules, …inadvertently in violation of the explicit disciplinary admonishment and directive against such opposite gender presence.

If that Youth Group activity was allowed to conclude in the previously described manner,…then it is painfully obvious that Pastor Savage held in low regard, both the persons in authority over him, and their efforts to enforce disciplinary measures that restricted his isolated physical proximity to but one gender, and specifically prohibited such inappropriate ‘intimate activity’ (tickling & touching).

Religious abusers were the focus of Jesus’ most stinging, recurrent public rebukes to a self-promoting, privileged religious order.

Pharisees, Scribes and Sadducees whom were described in scripture, as “loving money”…made it literally, their business, to erect doctrinal barriers that subverted intended financial relief from an adult child to their parent, by the manipulative binding of one’s conscience, through the declaration of such a would-be gift as; “Corban”.

This same pampered social class in similar fashion, ‘devoured’ widow’s houses, and transformed the reverential, sacred space of the temple courts, into a lucrative commercial enterprise. So egregious, were the animal sacrifice defect-identification scams, and the predatory exchange rates levied by the currency dealers, as to elicit physically vigorous expressions of righteous indignation by Jesus.

Drawing attention to themselves with inordinately detailed and costly clerical robes adorned by high-capacity phylacteries as a badge of honor, these hypocrites labored to exhibit their piety in contrived public performance of rehearsed prayer, while expecting segregated seating in public venues and to be addressed by honorific titles of distinction.

That Jesus would even have to address the proper conduct of such individual practices of fasting or bringing an offering to the temple, without undue notice, is yet another blistering condemnation of the profane showmanship the religious leaders adopted, to benefit only themselves.

Despite their avarice and privilege seeking, it was rather, the ABUSE of the ‘least of these’, the little ones, the uneducated, orphaned, widowed, foreigner or otherwise vulnerable population, that hold a special place of nurtured protection in our Lord’s heart.

Any false doctrine or unjust action inflicted upon these ‘little ones’ that would become a stumbling block to their well-being, resulted in the most forceful warning from God incarnate, to anyone whom would seek to deceive, exploit or otherwise make victims of his children.

That a ‘millstone necktie’ and a watery grave, are declared by Jesus, to be the better fate…is an unmistakable, damning pronouncement of the enormity of such sins by those whom violate the welfare of the vulnerable and dependent.

In light of this, I do not see how anyone calling themselves a biblically literate, born again believer, could trivialize Pastor Savage’s publicly known history of these incidents, or his attempts to deflect responsibility and escape evaluation of fitness to serve in ministry.

@ Dave:
This is where a “like” button is needed. Great comment. It’s unfortunate that it even needs to be stated, but it does.

I agree with Jonathan Leeman’s statement that some pastors shouldn’t be restored to the ministry. (I can only assume he is speaking of Andy Savage since in your quote he doesn’t mention Savage by name.) My question is what standard does Leeman use to determine which pastor should be restored and which pastor should not be restored?

More to the point, apparently in Leeman’s book sexual assault = no restoration, whereas blackmail, conspiring to cover up the sexual abuse of children and starting a hush fund to keep a pastor from joining a lawsuit against his denomination = restoration.

I am speaking of course of C.J. Mahaney. Jonathan Leeman’s boss is Mark Dever. Mark Dever has strongly supported C.J. Mahaney in spite of very credible evidence concerning the above mentioned items. Dever has spoken at Mahaney’s run-away church plant, allowed Mahaney to flee church discipline by attending his church and shared the conference stage with him at T4G. (Which he will be doing again in April.)

In my opinion there are no bigger hypocrites than Dever/Leeman and neither one of them should be advising other churches or publishing editorials on who should or should not be restored to the pastorate.

A suggestion for the Deebs. If the cowardly Leeman offers a comment on your blog I urge you to block it. You may recall that in September 2016 Leeman had published an article on his 9Marx website which received many negative comments. He removed many of them because of “strong language.” The truth is the comments were well written and well thought out but they disagreed with Leeman’s narrative. I believe The Wartburg Watch called him out on this and I did as well. His response? He ceased allowing comments on any of his articles.

If you want to read more about this and see the comments he deleted you can check out my article “Jonathan Leeman: Parsing Words and Deleting Comments” here: https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/24/jonathan-leeman-parsing-words-deleting-comments/

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

I am speaking of course of C.J. Mahaney. Jonathan Leeman’s boss is Mark Dever. Mark Dever has strongly supported C.J. Mahaney in spite of very credible evidence concerning the above mentioned items. Dever has spoken at Mahaney’s run-away church plant, allowed Mahaney to flee church discipline by attending his church and shared the conference stage with him at T4G. (Which he will be doing again in April.)

In my opinion there are no bigger hypocrites than Dever/Leeman and neither one of them should be advising other churches or publishing editorials on who should or should not be restored to the pastorate.

FYI…Dever is one of the scheduled speakers at the Downline Ministries summit conference in Memphis in a couple of weeks (http://downlineministries.com/podcast/everything-need-know-downline-summit/). This is the same conference where Conlee was scheduled to speak until Downline dis-invited him because it would look bad in the current media climate.

I would love to say that Downline dis-invited Conlee due to their strong moral compass, but the guys leading Downline (Kennon Vaughan, John Bryson, Soup Campbell, Hamp Holcomb) are the same ship of fools who knowingly hired profuse child molester, Pete Newman, and brought him to Memphis while he was out on bail, and are the same cretins who conspired to cover for exposed video voyeur, Rick Trotter, and paid him handsomely with unknowing donors’ money long after he was caught clandestinely filming women and children in church bathrooms, etc.

Divorce Minister wrote:

TGC took action. Good for them! Nice to see them get this one right.

I meant Acts 29.

On Highpoint Church no longer being in the Gospel Coalition church directory, I actually don’t think that’s a good thing. The church directory only claims to be a list of churches (really pastors) who choose to affirm TGC’s doctrinal statement. If it’s actually an approval of the individual church’s governance, that’s a new development that needs to be publicly announced. If not, they’re just hiding. I know of a “gospel-centered” church where the head pastor fired all the elders who declared him unfit for ministry that’s still in the directory.

The only thing I can see TGC has been talking about since January 5 is steaming hot takes on politics, “Planting a Church is Lonely”, and “How the Hero of ‘Doctor Who’ Is—and Is Not—Like Jesus”.

The Highpoint service just shows us what really hides behind the smiles of the Sunday service. Authoritarianism and obedience. Slavish following of a personality cult in love with power more than the deity they profess faith in.
There are sins & then there are sins. They are not all equal. Only the victim can forgive & only if it’s to their benefit. That does not mean the event is erased.
These churches are just pasted together, like the biblical passages they string together completely out of context. Frankenchurch money machines. They kind of look christian but are made up of dead bits.

Max wrote:

The aftermath of this sad chapter in the American church also revealed the hearts of some members at Highpoint and others sympathetic to abuser rather than victim. The blogosphere has been full of trash-talking commenters with little understanding of what has occurred here. It’s as if they collectively ask “What’s the big deal about a pastor having a sexual encounter with a member of his youth group?!” They just don’t get it!

Churches like Highpoint are using every gimmick they can to attract the culture, but don’t seem to be instilling Christian character after they get them there. I suspect there is a Highpoint-like church within reach of everyone reading this. America’s youth are flocking there to “experience” church with all the bells and whistles – cool pastors, cool bands.

Without getting on a band-wagon about New Calvinism again, this appears to be modus operandi at many reformed church plants around the country. New Calvinist pastors in their 20s-30s and their “elder” teams in their 20s-30s mimic message and method of what is working elsewhere to draw a crowd. It’s time for denominations, like SBC, to seriously consider what is going on as Generations X, Y, and Z seek the genuine among the counterfeit. Will young folks no longer respond to the Gospel if it is not filtered through hype?

We have to be careful to not ascribe the sex abuse to the type of church it is. The church that the pastor sexually abused me in was small, about 60 – people on a typical Sunday, very traditional Baptist, only songs we sang were hymns and the only instruments piano and maybe organ. And the pastor was not Calvinist. Sexual abuse, unfortunately, happens in churches of all styles. #churchtoo

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
I think you are right. My thought is that our behavior matters so much because of how it affects God’s children, the people all around us. Protestants (I am one, I guess) are always arguing the faith/works dichotomy that they miss the simple fact that a life well lived is one that loves all those around us. The Calvinistas would rather build these complex moral systems on “total depravity” and “imputed righteousness” that they miss the simple call of Jesus to live out of his love.

I listened to the whole three hours of Ben’s show and called in. Mine was the first call taken after the interview. I held on through the entire interview hoping to grill Andy with some tough questions but unfortunately no calls were taken during the interview.

Ben was tougher on Andy than I thought he would be yet still protective. Andy did exactly as I expected. He minimized his role and responsibility in every aspect. He was a young college kid not a 22 year old youth pastor, not a senior in college pressuring a junior in high school for sex, and definitely not a youth pastor responsible for the welfare of a minor. He was forced to admit that he lied by omission (only admitted to kissing) when he claimed that he confessed to Cotton the day after he took advantage of Jules. Over all I found him unbelievable and felt that he tried to tailor his testimony and triangulate his responses. He admitted that the “going away” party was strange which I think tips us that the whole truth never came out contra Andy’s repeated assertions that he confessed it all to everyone involved. He also admitted that the standing ovation was weird, so there’s a whole lot of strange weirdness associated with Andy and the churches that he has been affiliated with.

When Ben took my call after the interview had concluded, he prefaced it by saying that he was going to my call first and I’m not sure exactly how he phrased it but it was because I was in an adversarial position to Andy (when the call screener queried me about what I would say, I said “Shame on Andy and shame on Highpoint”). Ben didn’t give me much of a chance to talk and frequently interrupted but I told him that I didn’t believe Andy’s story, especially his account of apologizing to Mr. Woodson, whom he claimed said that he understood the situation and nothing more, kind of like, it was no big deal, which again leads me to conclude that the oral sex wasn’t revealed. Ben then abruptly hung up on me and almost every caller after was a member of Highpoint obsequiously fawning over Andy with almost zero concern for Jules.

What webs of lies we weave when first we practice to deceive.

Bryan wrote:

If Jules can someday forgive Andy this would be a great sign of God’s healing power to non-Christians and Christians alike. Please everyone continue to pray for Jules as she is obviously still hurting…

Bryan, it sounds like your heart is in the right place, but I believe you’re confused about the nature of forgiveness. Forgiveness is often, and mistakenly, taught as an instant cure for the pain of being abused or betrayed. But that’s not true. Forgiveness doesn’t always take away the pain.

Imagine that your spine is crushed because you were hit by a drunk driver. Even if you fully forgive the driver, you’re going to live with a lifetime of pain and disability. Your forgiveness won’t lessen the driver’s legal, financial, or social liabilities. He would still be arrested and charged, he would still lose his license, and he would still be liable for monetary damages. It’s just the nature of the physical world: actions have consequences.

In the same way, emotional wounds can cause pain that never completely goes away. That, too, is a normal consequence, when the injury is severe enough.

Holding perpetrators accountable is the one of the most important ways we can help a victim heal. You wrote of displaying God’s healing power to Christians and non-Christians. Surely, if we refused to tolerate abuse, shallow repentance, and cover-ups in our own midst, instead of hiding them or (what’s worse) giving them a standing ovation, that would also be a mighty display of God’s power, both to the church and the unbelieving world.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

“Hell will be highly populated with those who were “raised right

Even if that is true…that doesn’t mean that good manner and basic decency are bad! That’s nuts!

Forrest wrote:

There is a danger that we get led down a works-based salvation path here. I tend to think of it more along the lines that our behaviour reflects our salvation. In other words, fruit follows.

Gotta’ respectfully disagree with you Forrest. Standard Protestant doctrine teaches a one-directional ‘if then’ relationship between faith and works, your (generic your) works are only good if you have prior ‘faith’.
In other words, your ‘works’ cannot be counted as ‘faith’.

I see the ‘faith’–‘works’ operands differently. I see them with the bi-directional operator ‘if and only if’,
you can’t have one without the other, one is a sufficient condition for the other to exist.

Lydia wrote:

. To me, for example, Savage disqualified himself as a minister no matter how it went down. We don’t need court to understand that.

Completely agree with this.

There is no amount of ‘consent’ that would have made his actions acceptable. Period.

If this were not such a $#@@ serious situation, I would be making so many sarcastic comments w/r “organic sexual moment”……. 。

Lea wrote:

There is no amount of ‘consent’ that would have made his actions acceptable. Period.

Yea. And even if he would have only taken her out for ice cream, it still would have been wrong because he should not have been alone with her, he should not have been pursuing a relationship because of his pastoral role, and he did not have anyone’s permission to do anything but drive her home (even that should not have been allowed). There is so much wrong with this on so many levels, yet many people are tripping over themselves to justify it. This needs to serve as a wake up call for youth ministers and churches everywhere. It’s not just about Andy, it’s about making sure that appropriate controls are in place in every youth ministry.

Beth Duncan wrote:

We have to be careful to not ascribe the sex abuse to the type of church it is. The church that the pastor sexually abused me in was small, about 60 – people on a typical Sunday, very traditional Baptist, only songs we sang were hymns and the only instruments piano and maybe organ. And the pastor was not Calvinist. Sexual abuse, unfortunately, happens in churches of all styles. #churchtoo

Indeed. And across all denominations. I daresay this isn’t even a “Christian” thing.
The issue is exacerbated by closed communities that are xenophobic, foster a real us vs them mentality. The only accountability is to structure that has been rigged to protect itself and project a smooth face to outsiders (with the intention to draw them in).
This could apply to Baptists, Catholics, Scientology or Hollywood.

K.D. wrote:

How do I explain things like this to non-Christians…..I mean seriously. I’ve tried for years and I have no answers. My Chinese daughter in law sees people here that call themselves ( In the family) Christian do some of the most horrible things. Racism at the top of the list. The fact a church she visited while here in Houston had a budget larger than the 6 school districts combined surrounding my home?
Do these people not care? Do pastors see it only as a business now?
Is the organized church so broken it needs to torn down and started over?
I have wondered about this since seminary. Is there an answer? Or Is the American church going to exsist much like the one in Europe?

that is a great question. I no longer know how to explain things to family of mine who are unbelievers or in doubt. I can’t explain my own doubt about these things. I am sad, sickened, and broken. I can’t put things together anymore. How do I explain to my grandchildren that people outside the church care more about sexual assault than people inside the church do? I am holding on to God and Jesus with everything I have, because people who call themselves “his people” have done so much irreparable damage in my life and the lives of others that my faith is at its lowest point ever.

Muff Potter wrote:

I see the ‘faith’–‘works’ operands differently. I see them with the bi-directional operator ‘if and only if’,
you can’t have one without the other, one is a sufficient condition for the other to exist.

And this is also part of the problem. A person should be judged by their actions irrespective of faith. Highpoint Church is using Andy’s faith to justify his exoneration.
And who defines “faith” anyway? All religions claim their faith as “true”.
A person’s actions are the only money in the bank, the only tangible measurement we have.

@ Muff Potter:
The other question we have to ask is what are works? I was taught things like attending church, bible study, and “sharing my faith.” What if works are just living with hearts full of love towards others. When you start questioning what you have been taught, sometimes it strongly resembles a house of cards…

@ Beth Duncan:
I agree. Not everything is a Calvinist problem, or a youth group problem or a modern service problem. They are human problems of abuse. Some systems do a better job protecting the vulnerable and we should absolutely study that, but all systems can fail when the heart is wrong.

Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

Finally, I for one, am not advocating a complete ban on Andy Savage being in ministry. I do not have all the facts, nor do I know how effective a well run restoration plan/program can be.

Really? I disagree because of this:

Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

BUT, I do know enough to see another cover up, and sin leveling expercise going on, and that violates anyone that calls themselves Christians.

Andy Savage had been covering up and sin leveling for 20 years. This disqualifies a second time in my book. The first disqualifying act being that night 20 years ago.

@ Todd Wilhelm:

I agree, which is why I can’t stomach anything they write on these subjects at all!

Forrest wrote:

It is clear that the story that is being told now is more about the current mishandling of the situation by Highpoint than about the original abuse. The original abuse was dreadful and the way the church handled it back then was abysmal. The way that some of the Highpoint members are still refusing to see things (even the things admitted by the perpetrator) shows exceptional blindness.

Exactly! During the radio interview Andy Savage said he knew this family for 3 years!

After I let that sink in, I became even more angry at how this situation was allowed to be covered up. He was most likely known and trusted to Jules since she was 14 years old! So, those saying that she was 17 and of age, sorry, that just does not fly given the relationship. It’s just creepy.

This fact should make every single person sincerely question his bizarre account and blame shifting.

Regarding the “it’s 20 years ago!, get over it” tactic.

Why does law enforcement and the general public care about solving “cold cases”?

Why are numerous TV shows produced that feature solving cold case crimes that are 20,30, 40 or more years old?

Because identifying the perpetrator, exposing the facts and bringing some measure of truth, justice or resolution on behalf of a victim is incredibly satisfying and commendable.

Sometimes the perpetrator has lived for many years getting along with others, acting as if they are a decent person, a pillar of the community. Sometimes there were witnesses that never came forward, due to fear, personal friendship, participation, etc. We still care about decades old rapes, kidnappings, murders. We still care about Nazi war crimes from 75 very long years ago.

Bringing to light an assault that occurred 20 years ago…has merit; because the truth was not declared and justice was not served at the time it happened.

@ K.D.:
I finally admitted to my kids when they were younger that I couldn’t explain the “believers” to them after some very hypocritical situations in private Christian school. (Still the academics and learning envirnment was better there than our public system) I have since readjusted my approach to focusing more on what’s good and evil. Deception and betrayal are high on the list of evil behavior because it always starts with deception and ends in betrayal. I mean, if you can’t trust Christians….what’s the point? If everyone, including Christians, perpetually sin against each other,why bother adding the institutional church to your long to do list?

@ Lydia:

Apparently they don’t.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Question: Do y’all believe Savage would have “taken a leave of absence” if the story hadn’t exploded on nationwide (maybe even worldwide) secular media?

After the emotion manipulation show they put on? No way.

@ Jeffrey J Chalmers:
Oh the word choices. It’s a cool hip thing they did not invent. It goes back to the 80’s when Megas adopted the emerging leadership models in business from groups like Kinsey, Ken Blanchard, Tom Peters and other gurus. It became all the rage to peruse the thesarus and create a tribal language. I was out just as the “DNA” rage got started.

We could have some fun with it someday. Being as we are so “woke” and all, now. 🙂

http://www.andysavage.com/AndySavageShow

“Page Not Found.
We cannot find the page you’re looking for: /andysavageshow.”

+++++++
Looks like another result of the organic incident.

drstevej wrote:

http://www.andysavage.com/AndySavageShow
“Page Not Found.
We cannot find the page you’re looking for: /andysavageshow.”

Well, this page is still up and running on his “Making Marriage Make Sense” site {snort}:
https://andysavage2015.sitewrench.com/support-andy

Jack wrote:

This could apply to Baptists, Catholics, Scientology or Hollywood.

Ah, Scientology, the gold standard of cults everywhere. Back in 1995, a Scientologist was convicted of molesting his two stepdaughters. The Co$ knew about it, but because this guy had an elite status (I believe he was in “power” at the time, and please don’t ask me to explain it), the mother was told not to report it to the police. It did get reported to the police, and the guy was convicted of child sexual abuse. He got out of prison in 2013 but has to register as a sex offender. That’s neither the first or the last time sex crimes were covered up in Scientology.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Very few New-Calvinists have weighed in on this, which is unfortunate given that Highpoint was a TGC church until after this story broke. Al Mohler came out with this yesterday: https://albertmohler.com/2018/01/12/moralism-not-gospel-many-christians-think/.

I looked at article and did write Mr. Mohler urging him to write an article on clergy abuse considering recent events at Highpoint and SGM. I also mentioned “easy grace” and trotting out Calvinistic platitudes instead of dealing with abusive leaders correctly. This is coming from one who has Calvinistic leanings but also understands there are painful consequences for our actions. I wrote to him another time considering another issue but never heard back-this time will be the same. Considering all that has been going on this past year, I have become disillusioned with our evangelical thought leaders, but have also learned to be more discerning.

I’m curious then.

I’m assuming Ed Stetzer and Jonathan Leeman are now arms and doors wide open ready to listen to women (and anyone else) about women, abuse, mistreatment, and trauma and how that all manifests and plays out specifically in the SBC.

No?

There’s a complex (or not so complex) system of theological thought and practice that allows stories like Jules, and a lot of us have already walked and suffered on the roads and trails to see where it all comes from and how it all connects.

@ Steve240:

Whenever my church gets recommendations for a new hire, one of the questions is “do you know of anything else that could prevent this candidate from serving effectively in our congregation?” Obviously, you need to depend on the honesty of the reference, but this question prevented a couple of prospective candidates from being hired on the last search committee I served on. It was just the lingering doubts that made us say no.

Lance wrote:

I wrote to him another time considering another issue but never heard back-this time will be the same.

These guys don’t seem to respond to people outside their bubble. I’ve sent reasonable questions to Mohler, Piper, Challies, Ligon Duncan, and a few others. No replies. The people inside that bubble only seem to communicate inside that bubble. All the rest of us are considered liberal compromisers.

AbuseCrusher wrote:

The ministry scam is so good,

And apparently very old. The Didache is a very old Christian writing. Chapter 12 has this:
1. Let everyone who “comes in the Name of the Lord” be received; but when you have tested him you shall know him, for you shall have understanding of true and false.
2. If he who comes is a traveller, help him as much as you can, but he shall not remain with you more than two days, or, if need be, three.
3. And if he wishes to settle among you and has a craft, let him work for his bread.
4. But if he has no craft provide for him according to your understanding, so that no man shall live among you in idleness because he is a Christian.
5. But if he will not do so, he is making traffic of Christ; beware of such.

Beware of those “making traffic of Christ”

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

If the cowardly Leeman offers a comment on your blog I urge you to block it.

I usually agree with you but not in this case. First Leeman would not lower himself to comment here but if he were it would only add to understanding, the least of which is highlighting the hypocrisy of not allowing comments on his site.

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):

No way. But once it got out into the secular press, it became harder to control.

Highpoint preaches the false gospel of prosperity. Those members simply are not taught the Bible. Even their website blurb on the importance of reading the Bible directs them to buy a book written by Conley on how to read the Bible. Go watch the sermon by Andy from 11-19-2017 and see him put his words, not scripture, up on the screen. Well, he does put Matthew 6:25 up and says that is Jesus giving us a theology of prosperity. This is what churches all over hear every Sunday from these so-called pastors who are being churned out by the thousands from leadership programs that teach how to merchandise this false theology. The reason their church members are defending Andy is because they follow him instead of Jesus.

@ Linn:
It seems like we didn’t used to shirk from calling these kind of guys ‘cads’ or worse. Remember how Rhett butler in gwtw ‘wasn’t received’?

I wanted to comment on two issues:
1. Someone accused Dee of “amateurish” writing and she conceded this fact. You do not have to be a “professional” to write with clarity, strength and skill. You do not have to be a “private investigator” to do first rate investigation and perform quality research and reporting. Add to the fact that so many “professionals” obfuscate the truth.
2. A comment on people saying “the incident” occurred 20 years ago. When one has experienced abuse or abusive behavior one does not forget, even after 50 years. The “sting” may go away but not the memory. You may forgive the perp but may never trust them again nor ever wish to see them in positions of power. The fact of the matter is that many people suffer but will never tell another soul-not even their spouse. I would guess that those who mention the “20 years ago idea” personally know someone who has been abused or has a friend who has never mentioned it to them. Why don’t they go ask a loved one about abuse and see what happens when the say, “Oh, that was 10,15,20,30 years ago, why don’t you just forgive and forget?”

Considering all that has been going on this past year, I have become disillusioned with our evangelical thought leaders, but have also learned to be more discerning.

after listening to the radio interview again today something struck a nerve and I began to count up how many times Andy Savage says he received “wise counsel”

He sought “wise counsel” when he confessed.
He sought “wise counsel” when he says he was told no one else besides a future wife ever needed to be made aware of what happened.
He sought “wise counsel” after showing his wife the email in which “wise counsel” encouraged him to not respond to
He sought “wise counsel” and was encouraged to tell his story on the radio

Definition of “wise counsel” – what your itchy ears want to hear

This is why so many are disillusioned. Many of these evangelical leaders are in an echo chamber of their own understanding that can be removed of clear, biblical mandates when it does not suit. The danger; they are utterly convinced of their own superior knowledge.

Donna D. wrote:

@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):

No way. But once it got out into the secular press, it became harder to control.

++++++++++++
If there is any doubt about whether they’d have covered it up further without extensive media attention (or if there is any “hope” provided by Austin Stone suspending Larry Cotton for his role–pending the vague “3rd party” investigation), check out the recent WatchKeep post (https://twitter.com/watchkeep?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) from the plea she got from a victim of Austin Stone….

“Hey, admin. Would you mind contacting me directly? I have a story to tell about an elder at the Austin Stone ignoring me when I reported a rape case. I was victim shamed and the rapist got promoted to being a small group leader. When I emailed the head pastors about it a year ago, I got no reply. I want to share my story. The only reason the Austin Stone removed Cotton is because this story is public. They did not remove the elder who ignored my story on the other hand because it was not public.”
++++++++
In short, these churches NEVER do the right thing for the right reasons. They only do CYA moves when publicly shamed.

AbuseCrusher wrote:

They only do CYA moves when publicly shamed.

Jeff Anderson agrees. http://www.andersonadvocates.com Damage control, only. Churches built on branding cower and cave with clay feet when justice-challenged.

Lea wrote:

it can still be a good idea to talk about how badly everything was handled

Yes. Things could be handled better.
http://www.slate.com/authors.ruth_graham.html
– How the Evangelical Culture of Forgiveness Hurts Victims of Sexual Abuse
– One Group That Thinks Grown Men “Courting” Teen Girls Is Natural? Fundamentalist Home-Schoolers

Beth Duncan wrote:

We have to be careful to not ascribe the sex abuse to the type of church it is.

Agreed. Sex abuse has no denominational/theological affiliation. New Calvinism only has its share of wayward pastors.

dee wrote:

In the meantime, when Savage said he has an “organic sexual experience* with Jules, I started coughing so hard I almost choked.I want this to become a meme at TWW. We will call if Savage’s OSM.

….

YES!

JYJames wrote:

@Julie_rodgers “It’s exhausting to think about the number of youth pastors who publicly pleaded with us girls to ‘save ourselves for our husbands’ and then sexually assaulted us in private. #MeToo #churchToo” 10:20 AM – Jan 10, 2018

The rank hypocrisy of this and the true love waits thing have been mentioned in passing but not fully explored.

This hasn’t been brought out yet – I wander if she was the only 1 he did this too. Could there be others there and in other churches? Will we see more women coming forward in the next few months that he also did things too?

https://splinternews.com/why-churches-havent-truly-had-their-own-metoo-moment-1822004980

“Why Churches Haven’t Truly Had Their Own #MeToo Moment” by Molly Osberg
“Andy Savage and Chris Conlee hug it out.”

Austin Stone is a big deal in The Gospel Coalition. The megachurch’s founder and ‘Pastor of Preaching and Vision’ Matt Carter is on the Council of TGC:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/about/council/#council

Googling “site:thegospelcoalition.org austin stone” yields over two hundred links to pages on The Gospel Coalition website containing the church’s name.

I have read the printed articles here and I am grieved, tears running down my face. And as I cry, millions of tears running down my face, my chest heaving with pain, I am reminded of how religious hypocrites freely forgive their own, but NOT the victim.

No, NEVER the victim, for she is always the guilty one, as deemed by the religious hypocrites of Jesus’ day, and the GUILTY ONE of our modern day Christian Religious Industrial Complex.

No, Jules is not the victim here, according to the RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS of our day, but in fact, Andy Savage is, because he is after all, a RELIGIOUS LEADER.

Yes folks, A RELIGIOUS LEADER. He was, in fact, the leader of a group of younger group of individuals.

A LEADER. I personally don’t care if he was labeled as a youth pastor, a youth minister, or a youth counselor. He was, in fact, in charge of a group of young people who in fact were not able to vote according to the law of the Constitution, so thus, were not adults according to the Constitution, and therefore, Andy Savage, was in fact, the proposed “adult” in charge of a group of young people.

Andy Savage was the described “adult” at twenty-two” years of age. Jules as the point of this unlawful crime, was in fact, seventeen years of age.

I am sickened, in fact, I want to vomit, at the fact that there are those who support the perpetrator here. I want to run to the mountaintop and yell, “Jesus, why are the wicked and evil people who portray themselves as pastors, still stand with pride in front of congregations who applaud the sins of man, who stand as an ovation for the sexual sins of a man who has NOT fully repented of his sins, let alone the wolves in sheep’s clothing who surrounded the wicked and evil youth pastor, in shutting up the poor lamb’s voice – ie. Jules.

As I follow this story, my heart grieves, my heart cries for Jules. She was literally “groomed” by the sick in the mind youth group leader. His name was printed “Andy Savage” via the church directory. Andy Savage knew exactly what he was doing, this wasn’t a “mistake sin,” nor was it the fault of a teenage “jezebel” who was pursuing this so called “pure leader” within the Christian Industrial Complex.

No.

Andy Savage is completely responsible for his own actions……Jules never held a gun to his head and instructed him to pull his penis out of his pants for her to engage. The CIC (Christian Industrial Complex) loves, loves, loves to blame the innocent….especially the women who accept extra-special attention from a pastor, a youth pastor, a music minister pastor, or any other pastor as labeled by the modern church, because their hierarchal leaders never sin…………only the lower laity sheep do……………or at least the lower laity sheep deserve the abuse from the hierarchal religious leaders for they are deemed as “less spiritual,” “the lesser important”, and the “least of these.”

The “least of these” are far more easily to abuse, especially by the clergy folks, ie., Andy Savage, and his cohorts…..his pastor friends.

I am a mother of daughters. And I am angered by what Andy Savage did to Jules twenty years ago. And I am angered by pastors, who still to this day, abuse their authority to abuse Jesus’ sheep; young girls who are seeking the LORD through the modern day church system, and women who are seeking the LORD through church leadership.

Psalm 4:4 still speaks to us today: “Be angry and do not sin…..”

I am angry. And I am NOT sinning.

Andy Savage, you do not belong in a leadership position for the sheep of our LORD, for you have freely chosen by your own actions, to disqualify yourself from caring for the innocent sheep of our LORD. You can still be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, however, you have eliminated yourself from the strict qualifications of leadership as specified by God, the Holy Spirit, per the Holy Scriptures.

Yes, you can be forgiven, BUT, NEVER, ever would I allow my daughters be in the presence of your so called “leadership,” or would I ever allow my daughters or sons for that matter, be allowed to be “alone” with you for “counseling”, unless I was present to DISCERN every word that cometh out of your mouth.

Folks, be a Berean!

In case people haven’t seen this:

http://makechurchsafe.com/2018/01/12/stonebridge-church-statement-andy-savage-jules-woodson/

Certainly interesting claims. Not supporting the statement but just making people aware of this.

@ Steve240:
http://makechurchsafe.com

More on the same blog.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

1) Why write something generic about morality instead of specifically addressing this particular issue? It gives the appearance of avoidance.

I know that you are specifically asking about Mohler, but there are a few voices that have been notably silent or very vague. I can think of a few reasons for this, including the interconnected nature of many of these leaders’ domains, as well as reluctance to favor a woman who challenges a man in leadership. I also think that too many of these ministers may have their own stories, maybe not as the Savage, but possibly as the Conley or the Cotton or the Bradley. (We know that the T4G guys are fine with looking away from Mahaney.) Maybe they are afraid of being called out themselves if they respond too strongly on this?

Caroline wrote:

Maybe they are afraid of being called out themselves if they respond too strongly on this?

Exaclty. They are all in hiding, waiting for it to blow over. They all have fingerprints on either this or some other very similar case.

I am rather stunned by the description of highpoint offered by Dale. It makes me weep. I am stunned that they call this place a church if they have the young people in a worldly environment and just throw the name Jesus in every now and then. I also am ashamed of parents that would send their kids to that youth group. Have they no desire for holiness?? For what is sacred?? Have they no holy fear of God?? I think the congregation is also at fault here for funding this nonsense. May a revival break out in Memphis!!!

Caroline wrote:

I also think that too many of these ministers may have their own stories, maybe not as the Savage, but possibly as the Conley or the Cotton or the Bradley

I think the later is probably true of way, way too many guys in ministry at this point.

Atticus Finch wrote:

Al Mohler’s “joke” about C.J. Mahaney and laughter he got from pastors in the audience at the T4G conference is as bad or worse than the standing ovation given to Mr. Savage.

Absolutely. It was appalling. Not to get too far off topic (don’t get me started on Mohler et al), but if light is going to shine into dark corners of the church, that’s one place to look for sure.

Abigailj wrote:

I am rather stunned by the description of highpoint offered by Dale. It makes me weep. I am stunned that they call this place a church if they have the young people in a worldly environment and just throw the name Jesus in every now and then. I also am ashamed of parents that would send their kids to that youth group. Have they no desire for holiness?? For what is sacred?? Have they no holy fear of God?? I think the congregation is also at fault here for funding this nonsense. May a revival break out in Memphis!!!

Appears that essentially, daycare seeking is an element, as ‘they’re not on the streets.’ Plus, many churches make it very difficult for oversight, so many people just back off and are told it’s fine. Getting told that assuages immediate conscience, money keeps rolling in, the circle continues.

Andy Savage when asked why he didn’t tell the whole truth about what happened with Jules Woodson ‘I was young and it was very embarressing.’

Andy Savage when asked about how he handled it after the assault ‘I was young and just did what the church leadership told me to do’

Andy Savage when asked why he didn’t tell Germantown Church about his abusive past: ‘I spoke to an older man at Woodlawn Church (now Stone Bridge Church) , kinda like a father figure, and he said I didn’t have to tell anyone but my future wife about it’

Andy Savage about why he didn’t tell anyone at High Point Memphis about his abusive past ‘no one asked me’

Andy Savage about why he didn’t disclose to the congregation at High Point after it became known by Chris Conlee, ‘I was doing what the lead pastor said’

Andy Savage about why he didn’t answer Jules Woodsons email, ‘I asked an older wiser person and they advised me not to’

Andy Savage explanation about what is going on now, ‘I am fully submitted to do whatever church leadership tells me to’

Andy Savage’s defense of himself is always that he was young and has always done whatever church leadership tells him to do.

When Jules Woodson said she was young and just doing what church leadership-her Youth Group Pastor Andy Savage who was 5 yrs older than Jules Woodson told her to do, Savage’s response is that she knew what she was doing and that she was an adult at 17 under Texas State Law. He implied that it was mutual and consensual and put blame on her, he was just a young guy that couldn’t help himself.

@ Dave:
i wish this comment of yours was published in every single christian media outlet in america, all of it.

The question of whether Andy Savage “should” continue in the career to which he’s committed his life… should be answered solely by his fully-informed congregation.

What ‘right’ or ‘standing’ do the rest of us have to banish this man entirely from a particular vocation. Now, if he had “truly assaulted” another human being; or done anything of the like with a “true minor” in the time and place of jurisdiction, then I would agree that he should be held to account with every high standard of recompense.

No demonstrations toward ‘mob justice,’ nor any other consortium of the opinionated, gets to exercise mastery over the administration of other private organizations. Yes?

Here in this case, it is illogical, irrational, and wholly unjust that anyone other than Mr. Savage’s informed congregation decide on his pastoral fate.

Almighty God will judge ALL parties to this and every other situation on earth.

Daisy wrote:

You’re upset that a pervy pastor who premediated on when and how to prey on a teen girl in his care is being held accountable for that past perviness? Am I understanding your post correctly?

My words speak clearly and civilly for themselves.

Your words? Sadly, they represent you as well.

Daisy wrote:

Women who have been forced to endure unwanted male sexual groping, dirty jokes, etc, to the point it breaks them down and they quit a job, etc, are another type of “victim.”

None of that is to say that groping and the like is as bad as rape, but none of it is acceptable behavior from men, either.

You know, you might be the perfect candidate to assist all the female teachers around the country with the epidemic of ‘female adult teacher rape of minor male students.’

I mean, seeing as how you recognize acceptable behavior so thoughtfully.

Daisy wrote:

So you’re a sexual abuser apologist. In your world, all a guy has to do out of having coerced a teen girl into sucking his willy is to say he’s sorry. I for one don’t care if he loses his career, his book deal, etc. I am hoping his wife gets some sense and divorces him, too.

Uh … maybe just consider visiting a therapist for a while. Do it for yourself.

God bless.

College Boy wrote:

Daisy wrote:

So you’re a sexual abuser apologist. In your world, all a guy has to do out of having coerced a teen girl into sucking his willy is to say he’s sorry. I for one don’t care if he loses his career, his book deal, etc. I am hoping his wife gets some sense and divorces him, too.

I would be willing to consider paying your therapy tab … IF … you calmed down and communicated more civilly.

Civil discourse. Just consider.

College Boy wrote:

I would be willing to consider paying your therapy tab … IF … you calmed down and communicated more civilly.
Civil discourse. Just consider.

I also hope Savage’s pet dog runs away from home, leaving him.

You need to see a therapist and stop being so shrill. I’ve been so civil in my responses to you, but you’re clearly too emotional.

@ College Boy:

Like I said, you’ll likely find yourself blocked from this blog by tomorrow morning if not the noon. Goodnight, sexual predator apologist and troll boy.

@ Karen:
Amen.

Daisy wrote:

I would be willing to consider paying your therapy tab … IF … you calmed down and communicated more civilly.
Civil discourse. Just consider.

I also hope Savage’s pet dog runs away from home, leaving him.

You need to see a therapist and stop being so shrill. I’ve been so civil in my responses to you, but you’re clearly too emotional.

You just can’t make this stuff up. Reality beats fiction every time.

College Boy wrote:

You just can’t make this stuff up. Reality beats fiction every time.

You’re referring to Andy the Savage and what he did to Jules, followed my the cover-up by men who profess themselves to be “men of God” here, right???

@College Boy

I can only assume you are a troll or are someone who might be mentally/mentally/spiritually ill-equipped to handle this issue by virtue of being mis-trained and misled at Highpoint or some shallow church like it…

However, to keep it simple, so that even the kid on the stool with the pointy labeled hat can understand it…

Our church leadership is to be “above reproach!” (Titus 1)

Now, we can debate about what it means to be above reproach, but I think any clear-headed person can say that it probably includes “not sexually assaulting women/children in your charge as minister…ever!” If you can’t understand that, we have a different Jesus.

The real Jesus would have a millstone tied around the neck of this guy—don’t tie yourself to him. The millstone is there; you just can’t see it.

@ AbuseCrusher:
Birds of a feather, maybe?

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

@ AbuseCrusher:
Birds of a feather, maybe?

Probably. I suspect the fellas at NAMBLA get pretty protective of each other when you rightfully refer to them as “perverts,” too!

College Boy wrote:

Here in this case, it is illogical, irrational, and wholly unjust that anyone other than Mr. Savage’s informed congregation decide on his pastoral fate.

Almighty God will judge ALL parties to this and every other situation on earth.

I think it’s a travesty that Mr. Savage’s well informed congregation and other well heeled cults like it get a tax free payday. Every single Sunday. Yep, a real bunch of heroes.
Real “worthy bunch” one might say (or maybe scream out in a sort medical event oops! My bad!… Spiritually inspired event)
And yes, please sic God on me!
*hugs*

Jack wrote:

Cricketts!

Nope, when contemplating Highpoint Church, I’m thinking of something a little more parasitic. Bedbugs!
Or in your vernacular… Bedbuggs!

College Boy wrote:

God bless and good luck to those spreading hate and ginning up anger. According to the Lord, you’ll need it.

Must be a that college education or maybe it’s a highpoint thing. How does one gin up anger? Is actual gin involved? Or is it something you guys do when a young lady isn’t so enamoured with your charms?

College Boy accused me of being a man hater on a different thread. No one has mentioned hate at all on these threads except College Boy. College Boy has also made derogatory remarks about several people on these threads. It’s interesting to watch him do what he accuses others of doing.

I have NEVER been witness to anyone more sarcastic and evil in my whole life!

College Boy needs to be blocked ASAP. His venom is tainting the good people here with such filth that i feel we all need to be decontaminated.

___

[The Way Ahead…]

Bible 101: “Measuring Up To Biblical Standards, Perhaps?”

hmmm…

In the Christ’s community of devoted dedicated believers, sex is only by biblical standards permissible between two consenting individuals bonded by matrimony.

Those who wish to be deacons and elders in this christian community must measure up to a strict drawn-up standard set forth in the holy scriptures.

That message is quite clear.

Those that can not ascribe to or measure up to this standard are requested directly and indirectly by scripture to aspire to another type of work.

Holy scripture gives the reasons and necessity for the performance of this standard in several places.

Adherence to this standard (1) is crucial to the support, sustenance, and continuation of an healthy Christian community. Non-compliance results in great harm to this community.

Please see your bible for further details.

*

“Not a sermon, just a thought…”

*

“hum, hum, hum…Little becomes much when you place it into the Master’s hands…” (2)

ATB

Sòpy
—
(1) https://bible.org/seriespage/2-biblical-qualifications-pastoral-eldership-titus-15-9-1-tim-31-7-1-peter-51-4
(2) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8tUmXbrgo_Q

;~)

– –

Doesn’t “college boy” even know that Any Savage 20 years ago first tried to claim what he did with Jules was just a kiss? That was what Andy reportedly said during his recent radio interview.

College Boy is a fantastic example of the problem, not the solution. I especially enjoy his picking on other people’s language as a deflection from the substance of their comments. And his personal faux concern for their health as a deflection from the substance of their comments. And his laying down how clergy should be judged as a deflection from the substance of their comments.And…

Just another sarcastic smart arse apologist for criminal behaviour. Your arguments just don’t cut it with anyone discerning, educated or professional here.

College Boy wrote:

College Boy wrote:

Daisy wrote:

So you’re a sexual abuser apologist. In your world, all a guy has to do out of having coerced a teen girl into sucking his willy is to say he’s sorry. I for one don’t care if he loses his career, his book deal, etc. I am hoping his wife gets some sense and divorces him, too.

I would be willing to consider paying your therapy tab … IF … you calmed down and communicated more civilly.

Civil discourse. Just consider.

College Boy, you need to shut up – you are blatantly trolling here. Deebs, consider this a formal complaint.

Lea wrote:

Worst case scenario here is Andy has to get another job. Let’s not be so dramatic.

It is a bit funny that they really do consider this a worst case scenario. AHHH!! I MIGHT HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO WORK AT AN AVERAGE PAYING JOB!? No one will write my sermons for me! I will have to actually show up every day! How can I ever support my family! We’ll be RUINED! We won’t even be able to afford our MILLION DOLLAR HOME ANYMORE!

College Boy wrote:

Now! Can you say the same for the high school senior, Jules Woodson; or the 20 years older-now Jules?? Crickets!

Oh look! Crickets is now spelt correctly…who’s a clever boy then!

I figure there are multiple College Boys sitting around a lap top in a coffee shop or bar drafting darts to shoot across cyberspace … or perhaps just one living in his mother’s basement. The really sad thing is there is a segment of church in America shouting “Go get ’em College Boy!”

Bill wrote:

College Boy should just be ignored

I’m not really sorry. I actually think this clown is sincere. He is what’s behind the mask at Highpoint Church (and probably other churches like it).
I say, troll away “Friends of Andy” what would we call them? “Frandies”?
All joking aside, I see no need to play nice. We suffer the actions of these “entitled” christians who sit in their tax free megachurches and sneer and spit on the very society whose constitution gives them right to espouse their feudal take on life.
So entitled that all they really do is take. Whatever they can get their hands on, your freedom, your money, your time and your children’s childhood (in the worst possible way).
The only beneficiaries are wanna be big men. Parasites. Bedbugs feasting on the good intentions of gullible congregations.
College Boy has done a great job laying it out for all to see.

ishy wrote:

Well, if this is the kind of person Savage and Conlee are training, then it’s just one more reason neither belong in ministry.

Ishy, in its attempt to be culturally-relevant, many “pastors” have forsaken their calling to equip disciples of Christ by training them in righteousness. The result has been a following of folks attracted to a church experience, but not an encounter with Christ. Followers of cults of personality have a passionate following of man and message, and sincerely believe they are on the right track, but do not grow spiritually as they ought. When the weaker elements of any church occupy the majority, they will end up controlling a leader’s approach to doing church – he will lead them in the direction they want to go in order to keep drawing them to the pew (you can find that even in traditional churches). If/when this madness breaks in America, members of churches of this sort will represent a great mission field for the Gospel. I pray that there are men of God in the wilderness right now who will come forth to meet the challenge. Lord knows that the church has experienced enough preacher-boys! We need men of God!!

P.S,
I speak with personal experience the use of “spirtual intimidation” that these profession preacher like to use on us. We all need to have personal security that was fundamental to the reformation, namely, that we do not need a priest to acess G$d. Questioning behavior of our leaders is NOT rebellion to G$d in basic form. Of course our motives can be selfish, just as much as our leaders motives can be selfish…… that is the messness of our world…. but the “ touch not thine anointed” is one of the biggist lies out there…

Max wrote:

culturally-relevant

Andy Savage once carried the following title at Highpoint “Pastor of Relevant Environments” … his nickname was the “Smoke and Soul Guy” … think about it. In the pursuit of mega, there’s just so much irrelevant about being culturally-relevant! Someday, a young man or two will step into the picture who will not rely on doing church with gimmicks, but will preach the pure Gospel that saves to the uttermost. Men of God, rather than preacher-boys, will draw a crowd – their churches will become mega of the good kind. No relevant environment or smoke and soul necessary. The Name of Jesus will be lifted above all names as the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and repentant souls gather under the banner of the Cross. The early church added to their fellowship daily those who were being saved … do it again, Lord!

Ken G wrote:

Who would have thought that one man’s behavior 20 years ago would cause so many to become unhinged today?

Yes, part of the consequences that are piling up because church leaders in Texas did not do the right thing … followed by church leaders in Memphis not doing the right thing. The Body of Christ – both at Highpoint and worldwide at this point – should not have to deal with this reproach on the church.

ishy wrote:

Well, if this is the kind of person Savage and Conlee are training, then it’s just one more reason neither belong in ministry.

Like.

ishy wrote:

Lea wrote:

Worst case scenario here is Andy has to get another job. Let’s not be so dramatic.

It is a bit funny that they really do consider this a worst case scenario. AHHH!! I MIGHT HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO WORK AT AN AVERAGE PAYING JOB!? No one will write my sermons for me! I will have to actually show up every day! How can I ever support my family! We’ll be RUINED! We won’t even be able to afford our MILLION DOLLAR HOME ANYMORE!

I sincerely believe ever single pastor/professional Christian should have a secular trade/job training, period. If it was good enough for the apostle Paul…

I say that because in the back of my mind I do have concern for the wife and children of a pastor that needs to step down from ministry. I am sure others do as well. In any case sales jobs are an option. And a stint in the *real world* is good for them. Some of the finest pastors I know did their time at UPS. The pastor I have now has a day job. Best pastor I ever had-and I have had some very very good ones and that is a high bar.

College Boy

It is time for you to say goodbye You will not win this argument because the facts are clear He was 22 years old and old enough to be a teacher nurse a firefighter a soldier She was a typical 17-year-old girl who like every other 17-year-old girls get crushes on cute guys about once every four hours He violated his trust as a youth pastor and a such should never be in the pulpit again You insult every good and decent 22 year old man out there who does for fill the obligations of their job and does so with integrity and dignity Savage did something really bad and most of the watching world gets it.

College Boy wrote:

Andy Savage has ALWAYS owned up to HIS participation in that long-ago consensual encounter with Jules Woodson. He has even apologized. Back then, and presently.

Now! Can you say the same for the high school senior, Jules Woodson; or the 20 years older-now Jules?? Crickets!

You see … some people, instead of ‘wallowing in the mire’ of victimhood, move on, seek repentance, build positive character, progress in life, and prosper – while acknowledging the imperfections of their humanity.

Others … accompanied with an ample supply of foolish pride, wallow in the mire of victimhood and hope that mobs of haters (95% of contributors here) rally around them to go out on the attack and seek to destroy stable families – get this – 20 years later. Not kidding. It’s a new millennial sort of ‘hate.’

Foolish pride, as evidenced by angry mobs (95% of contributors here) seeking to crucify others, comes before destruction.

God bless and good luck to those spreading hate and ginning up anger (95% of contributors here). According to the Lord, you’ll need it.

Nah. If he truly was accountable for what he did he would have at the very least stepped down at the time from the pastoral work he had just shown himself to be unqualified for character wise. I do agree the leaders back then failed him for not holding him more accountable at the time. I am not God and I am not his judge but just the fact he went on that radio show shows me he really has no understanding of how this all looks. And I would say that if Jules had been proven to be a wanton slut (Which I do NOT believe, let me make myself clear.) And frankly whether or not Jules forgives him is none of my business and not even relevant, in my mind. I see this whole thing as God giving him a chance to deal with personal issues that he just swept under the rug at the time. This is a time when God is dealing with things and cleaning things up and HE is the final authority, not the leaders at his church and not anyone else. God is not mocked, period. I have not seen any grief from him for what HE did. Let me know when he is done blaming others for what HE did, and I will listen.

This whole thing is for his good and for the good of the church ultimately but only if he will permit God to deal with him over it. Will he?

Lea wrote:

Hero worship. Possible mixed with mra

On a tangent, if his moniker is to be believed it is yet another indication of the failure of the academy. A number of reasonable psychologists have theorized that the current fashion on campus to indoctrinate social justice warriors will have the opposite effect on just as many, driving them to an opposite extreme. I certainly hope our future is not defined by the likes of college boy and SJWs, they are two sides of the same vulgar coin. Pray for sanity.

Thersites wrote:

I’m thinking of the poster

I just went over to find it again
https://despair.com/collections/demotivators/products/mistakes
and noticed on the page that is was “Perfect for: Disaffected college students”

bunny

I sincerely believe ever single pastor/professional Christian should have a secular trade/job training, period. If it was good enough for the apostle Paul…
I say that because in the back of my mind I do have concern for the wife and children of a pastor that needs to step down from ministry. I am sure others do as well. In any case sales jobs are an option. And a stint in the *real world* is good for them. Some of the finest pastors I know did their time at UPS. The pastor I have now has a day job. Best pastor I ever had-and I have had some very very good ones and that is a high bar.

Pretty much agree.
Two of the best Pastors we had, also had employment outside the church. Present pastor was a music teacher( just retired after 32 years ) He didn’t go to Seminary until age 40. Was a part time pastor for 10 years, now our full time pastor at age 55.
Another good Pastor we had, also didn’t go into the ministry/seminary until age 38. Previous to that he owned a barber shop.
They knew how to work and support their families, apart from depending on coffers of the church.

Max wrote:

“Pastor of Relevant Environments” … his nickname was the “Smoke and Soul Guy” …

I keep seeing this image of James Brown, the “Godfather of Soul”, with a Bible in his hand!

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

“Pastor of Relevant Environments”

Have you viewed the YouTube parody of “Contemporvant” church? It fits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfTjcz7ys7I&t=54s

Hi all
Let me tell you what has been going on with me.

My computer crashed last week. I bought a new one (with tons and tons of memory, RAM ) but GBTC was going to be out of town until today and he needed set up my computer with certain geek things. My new computer comes to my house late today and I am so relieved.

I have a serious bronchitis with a high temp and my husband was concerned that I would have to go to the hospital but I refused and have survived but am still not great.

Add to that, I have been helping Jules and our team wade through all of the offers she is getting from famous groups-trying to figure out how to manage things. The good news is this, her story is going to be told and it won’t be on a local talk show where the guy is a Highpoint attendee and a friendly acquaintance of Savage.

I plan a post tomorrow to show the dangerous implication of stating that Savage was JUST a 22 year old college boy. This has implications that are far reaching and I am not sure that we want to go there as a society or within the church. Also, I plan to discuss why a 17 year old high school teen still needs to be protected by both the church and our society.

I will link to the kissy face interview with Ferguson and point out the deeply concerning statement that Savage made. You can listen to it yourself. That interview was poorly thought out. It only raised the eyebrows of a number of well known outlets and individuals.

Didn’t you all just about die when Savage mentioned he had an *organic sexual experience* with Jules?

The facts are clear in this situation. The implications are deeply disturbing for all of our daughters in the church and in society.

Thankfully, college boy’s statements are public, they now belong to us to do with what we please, and they will be shared as an example of the difficulty women have in the church today. Wouldn’t it be interesting to know who he is…?

Dee Parsons wrote:

Wouldn’t it be interesting to know who he is…?

Could college boy be a seminary lad?

Dee Parsons wrote:

I have a serious bronchitis with a high temp and my husband was concerned that I would have to go to the hospital but I refused and have survived but am still not great.

You be careful and take care of yourself!
Dee Parsons wrote:

I plan a post tomorrow to show the dangerous implication of stating that Savage was JUST a 22 year old college boy. This has

“JUST a 22 year old college boy.”
This irks me to no end!
My husband joined the army at age 19. Two of my 2nd cousins joined the marines at age 18. ……. By age 20, none of those men would never have dreamed of doing what Savage did at age 22!

@ Dee Parsons:

Dee, you’ve been sick but such a trooper. You are an amazing woman. Thank you.
Now, i hope you can get over your organic experience quickly. 😉

@ refugee:
Wow, that is a great point. They definitely don’t believe that Jesus died for everyone. When you believe Jesus died for all, you know who everyone is, even if they don’t yet.

@ Mercy:
Amen to that!

@ bendeni:
Exactky, Bedeni. Savage is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

I’m going to add a couple of things here that I think need to be very clear in this debate about young & very young Youth Workers or Pastors. The first should be obvious, the second may not be.

1. When you are in any position of leadership over young people, which is recognised as giving you a significantly enhanced ability to influence them, for good or for ill (which is the rationale behind the law) you are subject to a law that says you may not get personally/sexually involved with those Young People under your care. It doesn’t actually matter if someone is 17 or 18, or 19, for the purposes of the law, & your Youth Pastor is 22, if they are known to you via your professional role with them they are totally off limits for sexual involvement & to cross that line is an offence. We all know if Andy had been a school teacher & Jules his pupil, he’d be on the sex-offenders register & barred from teaching.
Along with that I’d like to emphasise. & I can’t believe that it needs saying (but it clearly does), even if a Young Person from your church or youth project or whatever blatantly comes on to you, attempts to seduce you, or similar they DO NOT FORFEIT THEIR RIGHT TO BE PROTECTED FROM INAPPROPRIATE SEXUAL CONTACT WITH ADULTS IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY OVER THEM. This is not what happened with Jules, btw, but should underpin all work. In those situations you take that straight to your manager for help, particularly if you think someone is trying to cause you mischief this way. You don’t get to say ‘they were asking for it’ when crossing the line is a crime.

2. If your Youth Pastor/Youth Worker ‘persona’ depends on your being seen as a rule breaker, a rebel, one who skirts the boundaries & walks on the wild side, as Andy’s was said to be, & this spills into interpersonal relational boundaries, you have no place in youth work. This is because your self-image & self-esteem will gain a huge boost if you break a rule, as it affirms your’identity’, & that will muffle the full effect that an offence should have on your conscience. There will be a psychologically heightened battle between doing what makes you feel affirmed, & what you know is right. I’ve seen this before – workers who convince themselves that their ongoing big failings (drink, drugs, sex, criminality of other kinds) makes then MORE qualified to lead Young People, not less, as they’re so real & authentic & so close to what the Young People go through, etc etc. No, it doesn’t. It smacks of you needing your identity to be propped up by the admiration of teenagers, as pseudo-peer, not you fulfilling your responsibility as a role model. Come back in 10 years when you’ve grown up & we’ll see.
If you are too young to know appropriate boundaries then your senior worker should be drawing them for you, checking you understand them in your context, requiring you to keep those boundaries & keeping you in a close feedback mechanism.

All of this stuff is everyday work for anyone in various forms of Youth Work. All of these ifs & buts & ‘incidents’ are ridiculous to one with any proper professional experience as there are tried & tested ways of behaving, & of managing the normal hazards & risks of the profession.

Forrest wrote:

So, is he ‘organic’ or ‘inorganic’?

🙂

@ K.D.:
What do you mean by the church in Europe? Not sure I follow.

@ Dave:
Your remarks are well put. I would also add the word ‘racist’ to the late modern vocabulary. If you do not want to continue or cannot answer legitimate inquiries you will be called a racist. Jesus indeed was skeptical as He knew what was in their hearts.

refugee wrote:

But with his reported flirting, I would be inclined to peg him as a “sex is god’s wonderful gift” guy. With all the implied guilt that goes along with it, not recognizing the diversity in people’s drives and experience and attraction and energy and such.

Isn’t he the one that goes on about ‘atheistic sex’ or similar, by which he clearly means having a sex life that is not subject to Biblical values, as he sees them? So I would say your assessment is spot on – their version of sex is always so regimented & prescribed & imposed upon people, as though mankind was made for sex, not sex for mankind.

bunny wrote:

. I have not seen any grief from him for what HE did.

Indeed. A true and real apology followed by a change in behavior and maybe this would have stayed in the past.

@ Jeffrey J Chalmers:
Unfortunately,
You cannot take college baby (boy, infant etc.) seriously. Do not be offended by his one-sided viewpoint. It is often nearly impossible to take oneself out of the ‘culture’ one has been brought up in. We also would never wish ill on a fallen pastor’s family. The pain they are going through is an unfortunate by-product of what was done in the present and 20 years ago. I do hope they have strong support and a qualified counselor outside of the church to help them through this great trial. Andy would do well to get a regular job and make friends with true, biblical, wise men who can show him the ‘tough love’ that he needs. I am not saying this flippantly as we all need to have some accountability to those who have our best interests in mind, not want we want to hear.

JYJames wrote:

https://twitter.com/Ponder_Anew

Aigner gets to the point (re: interview) with a new title for the Pastor.

How odd. I have been blocked by the user even though I have only posted or retweeted in support of Jules.

@ refugee:
Same here.

Mercy wrote:

@ refugee:
Same here.

That makes me feel a little better. I thought the guy made good points (from what I remember) and liked and may even have retweeted a few, but now I suspect I’m not seeing his tweets at all. I do see a few “content unavailable” messages in my feed. So much for my first week of using Twitter!

Mercy wrote:

@ refugee:
I signed up last week primarily to keep up with all of this. I liked his posts too, which is why this is strange. He must have his reasons. I doubt it is anthing personal as our twitter accounts are sepaate from TWW.

I signed up for Twitter quite awhile ago but have mostly ignored it since then and only started Tweeting last week. I still don’t completely grasp how it works.

Dee.
Well done.
Thank you.

@ ishy:
Yes. That makes sense.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2018/01/14/andy-savage-search-truth-road-justice/1029330001/

Abigailj wrote:

I am rather stunned by the description of highpoint offered by Dale. It makes me weep. I am stunned that they call this place a church if they have the young people in a worldly environment and just throw the name Jesus in every now and then. I also am ashamed of parents that would send their kids to that youth group. Have they no desire for holiness?? For what is sacred?? Have they no holy fear of God?? I think the congregation is also at fault here for funding this nonsense. May a revival break out in Memphis!!!

I used to have a vinyl record containing a scathing song sung by Michael Omartian with the theme “They’ll see Jesus in my guitar.” You can find it on YouTube if you google “Big Time” and Michael Omartian.

ishy wrote:

Mercy wrote:

I signed up last week primarily to keep up with all of this. I liked his posts too, which is why this is strange. He must have his reasons. I doubt it is anthing personal as our twitter accounts are sepaate from TWW.

His profile either has been deleted, is on private, or Twitter received complaints about his posts and haven’t investigated yet. I’m guessing it’s the latter, since the Highpoint people did the same sort of thing on Facebook with all the news about Savage.

Oh, that makes sense. Thank you for the explanation.

@ ishy:
So that will still show up as my being blocked by the user? Still trying to figure Twitter out.

College Boy wrote:

College Boy wrote:

Daisy wrote:

So you’re a sexual abuser apologist. In your world, all a guy has to do out of having coerced a teen girl into sucking his willy is to say he’s sorry. I for one don’t care if he loses his career, his book deal, etc. I am hoping his wife gets some sense and divorces him, too.

I would be willing to consider paying your therapy tab … IF … you calmed down and communicated more civilly.

Civil discourse. Just consider.

Which logical fallacy is being employed here? Classic technique.

Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

All,
Take a look at this video: Andy Savage is telling us how to have backbone to raise kids!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrgn7YwNiDk

Because …………
His parents failed to keep him on a short leash when he was ……… 22???

How much college boy (he does not deserve capital letters) reminds me of my ex – always sliding around the question, dodging a direct answer by throwing it back on the other writer, demeaning, blaming and blame-shifting, knows what others should do and think, and has all the pat, often smart-alek, answers. And the cherry on the top (like Andy Savage), trying to look oh-so-spiritual – finishing with “God bless”. All too familiar. Might he be a narcissist?

refugee wrote:

@ ishy:
So that will still show up as my being blocked by the user? Still trying to figure Twitter out.

It depends on the app. For me, on desktop Chrome browser, it says “Page not found.”

Twitter has a couple different ways of handling bans, so we’ll just have to wait it out a bit.

refugee wrote:

You know, since coming out of an abusive church I have given a lot of thought to the matter, and I don’t think any church should have 501c3 status.

At the very least they should have to abide by the same rules and have to submit to the same reporting standards. That a “church” can collect considerable funds and potentially use it to pay huge salaries is illegitimate, that they can do it legally without requirements to even report it to their doners is shameful.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/news/2018/01/14/andy-savage-search-truth-road-justice/1029330001/

Quoting from the story:

But other women have criticized Savage in the wake of Woodson’s story, though not charging sexual misconduct.

“He (Savage) was one of the college youth leaders at my church while I was in high school,” Rachel Cox tweeted. “He flirted with me and I told the main leader. Nothing was done, of course.”

Cue in to the “nothing was done” part. Nothing was done. NOTHING WAS DONE. They told Andy Savage to stay away from the girls, but you know, he flirted with them and tickled Jules in a back bedroom. *shakes head.*

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Dee Parsons wrote:

I have a serious bronchitis with a high temp and my husband was concerned that I would have to go to the hospital but I refused and have survived but am still not great.

You be careful and take care of yourself!
Dee Parsons wrote:

I plan a post tomorrow to show the dangerous implication of stating that Savage was JUST a 22 year old college boy. This has

“JUST a 22 year old college boy.”
This irks me to no end!
My husband joined the army at age 19. Two of my 2nd cousins joined the marines at age 18. ……. By age 20, none of those men would never have dreamed of doing what Savage did at age 22!

My 18yo nephew would be sickened and incensed to be told Savage’s behavior was in any way normal or to be expected.

FYI…Amy Smith (Watchkeep on Twitter) is reporting that the Ferguson interview as posted on the Highpoint website appears to have been EDITED!

“More
I’ve been told that the recording that’s been released of @benfergusonshow Andy Savage interview seems to have been edited. About 3.5 minutes appear to be missing that contain comments unfavorable to Andy and @hpmemphis. Transcripts are being worked on. #metoo #justiceforjules”

++++++
But really, these guys at Highpoint are just good men committed to the truth, right?

#kickthem2thecurb #shameless

Max wrote:

Dee Parsons wrote:

Thankfully, college boy’s statements are public, they now belong to us to do with what we please, and they will be shared as an example of the difficulty women have in the church today. Wouldn’t it be interesting to know who he is…?

Mark Driscoll used to troll the blogosphere as “William Wallace II” to defend himself (true story). College Boy is probably not a “college boy” at all, but a mature man who is spiritually immature. His moniker is intended to make him appear smarter than the rest of us. Or, he could be a college boy living in his mother’s basement.

Hope you get to feeling better soon, Dee. You are a real trooper for the Kingdom of God. You have come into the world for such a sad time as this.

Or someone who was a college boy a couple of decades ago.

After @memphisnews story revealing Andy Savage marriage book page redirects to “drive thru dating” marriage manual, that page has since been removed.

That, of course, is the manual that encouraged dating questions, such as “What is the most trouble you’ve ever gotten into in a car?”

You can’t even make this stuff up!

Why aren’t all of the Highpoint cult members protesting the interview edits and the removing of select (damning) Savage references on their website?!?!? I thought there was nothing to be ashamed of here that occurred less than 20 years ago (?!?!?)

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Because …………
His parents failed to keep him on a short leash when he was ……… 22???

Right? I mean, I was living a thousand miles away from my parents at 22 and seemed to manage not to molest any teenagers but ok.

@ refugee:
I thought he stopped posting because he’s mostly drunk posting in the middle of the night…

@ Thersites:

Despair.com was a training resource for me so I am biased. In a world of meaningless Orwellian slogans and platitudes it was a humorous balm in Gilead. :7

@ Thersites:
Bingo.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

Gaga wrote:
Wartburg Watch has finally “jumped the shark”.
Yes, focusing on abuse in the church is way off topic for TWW…

And everybody knows that the DEEBS have been diligently working for years to protect abusive pastors! (Snort, snort, snort???)

Lydia wrote:

Anonymous Grandma wrote:

College Boy wrote:
I’ll pray for you.
I wonder if he really will.
He doesn’t come across as someone with much of a prayer life.

Imprecatory prayers, maybe?

“Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and destroy them?” But He turned and rebuked them and He said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are” (Luke 9:54-55)

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

I’m not a sweer tea fan (I live I’m the South but did not grow up in the south). Does it taste better coming out the nose?

NEVER! Most certainly not when one is still suffering the after effect of flu and bronchitis!

Gaga wrote:

Wartburg Watch has finally “jumped the shark”. Hat tip Happy Days

So late nineties! Guess that’s the last time your pastor let you read anything not related to his worldview.
Hat tip goes to some guy named John Gein (I think anyways) who popularized the phrase when talking about Happy Days. Look it up before the pastor calls to stop you looking at the internet. You’re courting church discipline though…tut tut.
Don’t worry…just yell some “you’re worthies” at him next Sunday. It’ll be cool.

Jack wrote:

I see no need to play nice.

Nor do I.
Being nice to people who need a sincere wake up call is not doing them any favors.

Gaga wrote:

Wartburg Watch has finally “jumped the shark”

We can actually determine if this assertion has validity. The colloquialism is used to describe something that is past its prime, when it starts using something for publicity that does not warrant the attention. So two points,

1) Is TWW readership down? I haven’t heard such a contention, does Gaga have documentation to support the implication?

2) Does this story warrant the attention given by TWW? Do an internet search on the story and you will see this story has been been picked up by a lot of news organizations both foreign and domestic. Does Gaga claim a better understanding of what constitutes news than actual news organizations?

Methinks the organization that might be past its prime is the subject of this thread and not TWW.

@ Beakerj:
My church tends to hire youth pastors who are about 30, married, and seminary trained. They are responsible to train their staff, but they also have another senior staff over them. Young adults also don’t meet on the same night the jr high/high school to keep relationships in the right circles. Nothing is foolproof, but the church does seem to take an interest in having adults involved in the youth ministry. I’ve been impressed with the two youth pastors we’ve had in the 20 years I’ve attended. I say this because I was in a couple churches where the teen supervision was terrible, including the church I grew up in. My mom didn’t let me go on the river trip because she didn’t think there was enough supervision. A young boy drowned on that trip, and I didn’t question her about her permission to attend an event ever again (even back in 1972, churches were sued, and they had to pay).

@ dee:
That’ll be interesting. Telling and compelling. What they want known and not – what lies beneath or gets shoved back under the rug. However, like in forensics, you already photographed the scene, before it was “staged”.

Mike Sloan Retweeted Highpoint Memphis
“Excellent case study in manipulative tactics” [regarding the interview]

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

refugee wrote:

Not just that, but I suddenly realized that “all God’s children” takes on a completely different meaning in a calvinist light. Would they see it as “all god’s elect”?

Piper answered your question this evening (see: https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-god-love-the-non-elect)

He does have a different love — an electing love, a saving love — for some and not all.

Just for the record, I reject Calvinism. I could be wrong, but I don’t see how a Calvinist can argue that all people are God’s children in the same sort of way.

This is so sad. Does that mean he thinks that only the elect are made in the image of god, and the rest are golems?

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
If this is true, and you have more than one kid and love them all the same, you are a better parent than God. That can’t be true.

@ JYJames:
“A particularly eye-opening 2011 study found that people in leadership often pick up phantom sexual signals from subordinates that aren’t really there.”

Thus, it was “consensual” and “organic”.

Ken G wrote:

Did your church ever have a single never married adult about 30 in a responsible position, such as youth pastor / worker, or is being married a necessary qualification? If singles are excluded, then the message is that we don’t trust you and you are not really welcome here, but we’ll take your money.

Churches are masters at overlooking singles who have aged out of Singles College classes. If you’re 30 and older, you don’t exist.

A lot of singles deal with the marginalization by just dropping out of church.

Then you do have churches that notice that there are tons of never marrieds over age 30, but their only “solution” to that is to shame us for having not married, to assume all of us intentionally chose life long singleness, etc.

dee wrote:

Thank you. To reassure everyone, we have the original transcript and recording and will be doing a comparison. More tomorrow.

I await that with interest, Dee.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Question: Do y’all believe Savage would have “taken a leave of absence” if the story hadn’t exploded on nationwide (maybe even worldwide) secular media?

Not even slightly. He would have carried on as usual if the media hadn’t picked up on this, if he hadn’t been exposed. That alone tells me he is not repentant.

@ Linn:
Those are certainly steps in the right direction aren’t they? I have no issue with having younger Youth Workers, but there are extra risks that come with that.

These days I’m very leery of anyone who is ‘down with the kids’, supercool in youth culture terms etc, dudebros are very unlikely to make it even to interview. Experience is a great teacher!

Lance wrote:

2. A comment on people saying “the incident” occurred 20 years ago. When one has experienced abuse or abusive behavior one does not forget, even after 50 years. The “sting” may go away but not the memory

Plus it is a medical/ psychological truth that people who have experience serious trauma don’t just remember it. Their brain responds to the memory of it as if it were happening right now. So Jules and other like her don’t just have a bad memory of something that happened a long time ago, they are reliving that horrible experience over and over and over.

Beakerj wrote:

? I have no issue with having younger Youth Workers, but there are extra risks that come with that.

I think if you have truly younger people (especially college students!) they need more adult supervision. They need clear boundaries to be taught and enforced and if they are caught crossing them they need to be put down, hard.

None of that happened here.

Liz wrote:

K.D. wrote:
Is the organized church so broken it needs to torn down and started over?
I tend to think yes, on that one. At the very least, I am seeing denominations having to radically shake up the way they do things. God has been speaking to our church about “pushing out the walls”, ie remembering that church is the people, and so long as you have a group of people gathered to worship and pray and share life together, it is a church. I see many people who are interested in Jesus, but have nothing but disdain for the institution of the church, because they see it as irrelevant at best, and harmful at worst.

I happen to believe that the orgaized church became broken during the time of the apostles. What we are witnessing today is a man made institution. I agree with everything you have stated. So, my husband and i are the church in our location. We know of no others who wish to gather with us. It is a bit sad but we are convinced that the Lord is with us. This is more authentic that going along to another group that is not right.

Liz wrote:

Lance wrote:
2. A comment on people saying “the incident” occurred 20 years ago. When one has experienced abuse or abusive behavior one does not forget, even after 50 years. The “sting” may go away but not the memory
Plus it is a medical/ psychological truth that people who have experience serious trauma don’t just remember it. Their brain responds to the memory of it as if it were happening right now. So Jules and other like her don’t just have a bad memory of something that happened a long time ago, they are reliving that horrible experience over and over and over.

This is a problem I have with statement analysis. I was listening to someone recently fired who went through a shocking and traumatic situation in his career with people he had trusted. During the hour entire interview he kept referring to them as “we”. He kept referring to the situation as it ‘had been’ while talking about what happened and then amalgamating that with use of pronouns. It’s hard to explain but when one has put their total trust in someone or an institution and have had good experiences with it until the blindsided “bad”, there is a sort of cognitive dissonance that comes with that. Add in frontal cortex development for even more of it.

Victims desperately need good advocates.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

Steve240 wrote:

What will be interesting to see is how much attendance and contributions drop off in these following weeks at Highpoint Church. I imagine the only thing that will get the attention of Highpoint leadership is if attendance and contributions drop significantly. But then I imagine it will be lower staff people that are laid off first vs. top leadership.

What concerns me is that the investigation into Andy might be short-circuited by the need to bring him back to the pulpit as soon as possible to keep up the cash flow. Why, the giving units might start getting restless and start looking around for another church in Memphis where they can hear a dynamic speaker and have a rock concert-like experience at 9 am on Sunday morning! And this is not speculation. We know giving at the imploded Mars Hill churches in Seattle dropped off in the summer of 2014 when Driscoll was put on a leave of absence.

I fully expect that Andy Savage will be back in the pulpit in May, and maybe even sooner.

I have no doubt that the answer they want with Andy Savage is to have him back as their speaking pastor. I am sure Highpoint leadership will do what they can to have the “independent” investigation show that Andy should come back. I am sure the leadership is just playing the politics they were forced to deal with regarding Andy.

From what I have seen they aren’t the smartest politically. Most churches even when they want to keep a leader would have played the suspension card immediately vs. the cast the first stone message that was give the 1st Sunday after what Andy did became public. Thus even if they weren’t serious about looking in Andy’s sin they would have at least given the appearance.

Daisy wrote:

Ken G wrote:

Did your church ever have a single never married adult about 30 in a responsible position, such as youth pastor / worker, or is being married a necessary qualification? If singles are excluded, then the message is that we don’t trust you and you are not really welcome here, but we’ll take your money.

Churches are masters at overlooking singles who have aged out of Singles College classes. If you’re 30 and older, you don’t exist.

A lot of singles deal with the marginalization by just dropping out of church.

Then you do have churches that notice that there are tons of never marrieds over age 30, but their only “solution” to that is to shame us for having not married, to assume all of us intentionally chose life long singleness, etc.

Having worked in ministry, I can tell you that there are 2 primary reasons that singles age 30+ are overlooked for youth pastor-type positions:

1. Follow the money trail. Churches like young married folks (and really only couples that have stay-at-home wives) because they are trying to get 2 employees for the price of one. They expect the wife to do ministry for free. They particularly prefer childless couples, because then, they don’t have other obligations that keep them from spending all of their extra time with the youth group kids. Also, to them, a married man is less likely to be homosexual, so they can cross that off their “worry list.”

2. You are right in that they have contempt for the singles (particularly older singles). In their haughtiness, they assume that because someone deemed them (the pastors) “marriage-worthy,” they are somehow better than those God has not called to that (yet or at all). Most pastors are terribly insecure and are (by normal standards outside of ministry) socially awkward; their insecurity manifests itself in a spiritual narcissism.

A wildly-popular pastor I used to work for in my youth believed in “election” and pre-destination” (concepts open for theological debate in a different thread, but germane here only for what follows next). His term (in his private ministry circles) for the older singles in his congregation was “The Frozen Chosen.” Now, of course, his callous dismissal & derision of these men and women (equally valued by God) did not keep him from accepting their donations/tithes to the ministry or from asking them to do many labors (for free) for the church.

In short, it is not simply that the modern church leadership doesn’t care about the congregants, it has actual disdain for them.

Mercy wrote:

So, my husband and i are the church in our location. We know of no others who wish to gather with us.

Maybe you just need a fog machine? 🙂

@ Max:
Mercy wrote:

What we are witnessing today is a man made institution.

Oh, no doubt about it. But that has been occurring for a long time. There are some 30,000 Christian denominations and organizations worldwide. Most (if not all) began when a good man here and there decided to launch his own thing, convinced that he had a corner on the truth unlike all the other choices on the menu.
This “30,000” is a made up number. They used every separate church to make it up.

AbuseCrusher wrote:

Mercy wrote:
So, my husband and i are the church in our location. We know of no others who wish to gather with us.
Maybe you just need a fog machine?

Maybe…..

AbuseCrusher wrote:

the older singles in his congregation was “The Frozen Chosen.”

like Gladys Aylward in China?
Amy Wilson Carmichael in India?
the ten Boom sisters in Holland and beyond?
John the Baptist in the Bible?

With the “wildly popular pastor” – the gates were down and the lights were flashing, but the train never came.

@ AbuseCrusher:

“In short, it is not simply that the modern church leadership doesn’t care about the congregants, it has actual disdain for them.”

I can attest to this first hand from my mega consulting days. It’s the strangest thing, too. They know they are dependent on bottoms in seats (that is where the bulk of money comes from not tithing) but they resent it and think themselves above the plebes. That could very well be the case in any stage/media profession where numbers of followers are the goal.

Ken A wrote:

the problem is with the model. “Elders” and/or “pastors” running everything and thinking their authority is supreme. As Dee and Deb have shown over and over, this model is very flawed. It can’t be right. They set themselves up as demi-gods.

“In recent years, a growing body of research has shown how power warps one’s perception of others and alters people’s behavior.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/12/20/what-makes-some-men-sexual-harassers-science-tries-to-explain-the-harvey-weinsteins-of-the-world/?utm_term=.7bb87ece83a1

@ Thersites:
According to Alexa. I’m, TWW has jumped up the rankings by almost 85000 in the last 30 days

https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/thewartburgwatch.com

@ Deb:
But that is a secular article. Don’t you trust the sufficiency of scripture rather than some article written by unregenerate, worldly people? /sarc

@ Ricco:
Oops. Replied to the wrong post. That was meant for JYJames

@ Deb:
Russell Smith wrote:

In case you haven’t seen it – here’s a post from a Memphis area pastor about this
https://edspastorblog.blogspot.com/2018/01/thoughts-on-my-fellow-memphis-area.html#.Wly1fSOZMgp

Thank you for sharing this. He understands….

Ken A wrote:

@ Max:
I stand corrected.

Still the number “30,000” is a lie.
http://justforcatholics.org/a86.htm

@ dee:
College Boy is Savage?

dee wrote:

Savage complained about the awful people who have been commenting on him.

Awful comments supporting him, in his defense? Yes, seen those.

Ken A wrote:

I think we can all see that the problem is with the model.

On a new blog in support of Jules Woodson’s account, I put a similar comment, with questions about how “church” is structured. The comment was deleted and never cleared moderation. My guess is that the admin seeks to fix and not address structural issues in the institution.

In the erased comment, I wondered if the model is similar to how we believe in Santa Claus until our eyes are opened and we see that our parents and family put the gifts under the tree. We grow up and out of the fantasy.

Max wrote:

Ken A wrote:

the number “30,000” is a lie

True or not, thousands of Protestant denominations (whether it be 1,000 or 30,000) is not a good thing. Some argue that there is one true church in various manifestations … but finding where it is hiding out is getting tougher by the day!

So why quote “30,000” if it may not be correct? We could get into a debate about why there are any denominations in Protestantism. But to quote a number that is demonstrably false is being disingenuous.

Forrest wrote:

Andy has continued to operate exactly the same way throughout – minimise and then blame shift and minimise.

I mentioned this last week. I’m not understanding why all his “wise counsel” do not see it. It’s possible they don’t want to see it.

Max wrote:

There is a systemic problem in some religious circles which shelters failed pastors, while failing to minister to those who have been impacted by their sins.

Rank Hath Its Privileges.
Especially when conferred by Divine Right.

Ricco wrote:

@ Deb:
But that is a secular article. Don’t you trust the sufficiency of scripture rather than some article written by unregenerate, worldly people? /sarc

I have found that secular articles on secular subjects (which can apply equally in a church setting) often are very helpful. Same way that I would seek advice from my doctor about a physical symptom instead of asking a pastor.

Ricco wrote:

@ Deb:
But that is a secular article.

AKA FAKE NEWS(TM).

(Aside: Ever since the 2016 elections — and the later election circus around Roy Moore — I have been puzzled by American Evangelicals’ backing of Trump. I’m starting to come to an explanation, but still need some thinking it over. The basic idea is that the behavior, attitudes, and tropes of American Evangelicalism set up its members for “Trumpism” which fulfilled a lot of their expectations (from pulpits and MenaGAWD) for Godliness. Their loyalty just transferred over from their pulpits.)

Don’t you trust the sufficiency of scripture rather than some article written by unregenerate, worldly people? /sarc

SCRIPTURE(TM) should be capitalized. (It is when they say it.)

Max wrote:

Editors.

The edits and wise counsel should have happened before the act:

20 years ago
Holy Spirit: Do NOT drive this teen in your car alone.
Holy Spirit: Do NOT lie about where you are really going, abducting her into your machiavellian plan, etc.

Today and ever since:
Holy Spirit: Come clean, own your lust, schemes, arrogance, lies, pride, deceit. Take it to the Cross. Find another trade.
Instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64oT3EYvi3Q

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Welcome back, HUG!

Forrest wrote:

Andy continues to portray himself as the spiritual guy

Ken A wrote:

So why quote “30,000” if it may not be correct?

I figured Christianity Today was a reliable source. Sorry.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/topics/d/denominations/

@ JYJames:
Or this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG6n0CakXUs

I’m still tracking down when the bit in Texas law about clergy and sexual assault was added. It certainly predates 1998.

see SB 542, 75th Regular Session (1997) which is amending an adjacent section of the law but includes the clergyman bit for context
Acts 1997, 75th R.S.,ch. 1031, General and Special Laws of Texas
http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/legis/BillSearch/text.cfm?legSession=75-0&billtypeDetail=SB&billNumberDetail=542&billSuffixDetail=&startRow=1&IDlist=&unClicklist=&number=101

the actor is a clergyman who causes the other person to submit or participate by exploiting the other person’s emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman’s professional character as spiritual adviser

@ Max:
Regarding abuse survivors in our present discussion, stats, and numbers, this is why corroboration is key. Andy Savage has a 20-year trail (of deceit, etc.). Every time the “20 years ago” is brought up by himself and his defenders, they are actually gesturing to his unfortunate path. 20 years is a pattern and pattern denotes character. It’s all there.

A case study leads to discourse which inevitably brings many witnesses to the foreground, which leads to a class, and class action.

Holocaust scholar Terrence Des Pres looked at 4,000+ holocaust documents to write his phenomenal The Survivor: An Anatomy of Life in the Death Camps. https://www.amazon.com/Survivor-Anatomy-Life-Death-Camps/dp/0195027035/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1516038368&sr=1-1&keywords=9780195027037

@ Max:
“Let those who love the LORD hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.” Psalm 97:10 NIV

Great song!

JYJames wrote:

The edits and wise counsel should have happened before the act:

20 years ago
Holy Spirit: Do NOT drive this teen in your car alone.

Exactly. In fact, this is precisely what happened. After the tickling incident, Andy was counseled–ordered, actually–never to be alone with Jules again. By driving Jules home that night, he was not only ignoring wise counsel (the only truly wise counsel he received in this whole debacle) but willfully defying orders from a superior. He defied social norms; he defied his boss; he defied the Holy Spirit. It was a rebellious act from start to finish.

Excellent article shared by Boz…
http://www.netgrace.org/blog-list/2016/5/4/false-narratives-of-christian-leaders-caught-in-abuse

AbuseCrusher wrote:

Highpoint is an absolute fraud, and anybody who was previously defending the leadership should see clearly that Truth is not their aim. Conlee and Savage are professional deceivers!

The more Highpoint leadership reacts/explains, the more they reveal their true identity.

Erp wrote:

Do you have the bill number for when clergy were added? This particular law became effective on Sept 1, 1997 (signed on June 19, 1997) but the section on clergy already existed.

The bill as originally written in 1997 included “clergyman.” There were amendments to the bill that added certain provisions related to health care professionals. But the clergy reference was in this bill.

Clearly if it were not for the statute of limitations, Andy Savage could be subject to prosecution based on this 1997 law.

Erp wrote:

Dale Rudiger wrote:

Erp wrote:

I’m still tracking down when the bit in Texas law about clergy and sexual assault was added. It certainly predates 1998.

It sure looks like the law was enacted in April, 1997.

Do you have the bill number for when clergy were added? This particular law became effective on Sept 1, 1997 (signed on June 19, 1997) but the section on clergy already existed.

If this is the case, why did the DA let Savage go?

Uppity Bimbo wrote:

If this is the case, why did the DA let Savage go?

The SOL has run out I believe.

@ Uppity Bimbo:
“If this is the case, why did the DA let Savage go?”
That would be the statute of limitations, Uppity.

I have tried to determine the statute of limitations that would apply in Texas regarding sex crimes against a minor by clergy:

Current law: Art. 12.01. FELONIES. Except as provided in Article 12.03, felony indictments may be presented within these limits, and not afterward:

No limitation:

(B) sexual assault under Section 22.011(a)(2), Penal Code, or aggravated sexual assault under Section 22.021(a)(1)(B), Penal Code; [this applies to a child under the age of 17]

Ten years from the date of the commission of the offense:

(E) sexual assault, except as provided by Subdivision (1); [age 17 and older]

Dates of changes to the statute of limitations:

1997 H.B. 921 amended Art. 12.01(1) of the Code of Criminal Procedure, by providing a limitations period of 10 years from the 18th birthday of a victim of indecency with a child under §21.11(a)(1) of the Penal Code (had been 10 years from the date of the offense), sexual assault under §22.011(a)(2) of the Penal Code (had been 10 years from the date of the offense), and aggravated sexual assault under §22.021(a)(1)(B) of the Penal Code (had been five years from the date of the offense).

2005 The 80th Texas Legislature passed H.B. 8 (“the Jessica Lunsford Act”). The law: 

4) eliminated the statute of limitations for indecency with a child by contact or exposure, sexual assault of a child, aggravated sexual assault of a child, and continuous sexual abuse of a young child or children;

@ Erp:

Not sure I understand your question. The section regarding the clergy was part of this 1997 bill. I don’t think there was any provision to carve out clergy as an excepted class prior to this bill.

Russell Smith wrote:

In case you haven’t seen it – here’s a post from a Memphis area pastor about this

https://edspastorblog.blogspot.com/2018/01/thoughts-on-my-fellow-memphis-area.html#.Wly1fSOZMgp

The post from the Memphis area pastor raises some serious questions. He wrote, “I too was a young youth minister while finishing college, and I remember (sometimes with an accompanying facepalm) plenty of foolish mistakes and times when I sinned against those in my youth group or congregation. Throughout my adult life I’ve also faced my share of temptations toward sexual sin and other sins, and have failed in succumbing to those temptations more times than I wish were true. And, again thinking back to my late teens and early 20s, I remember times when, even as a Christian, I was inappropriately physical with women I was dating….But the situation with Andy Savage is different.”

I think you need to fully explain why your sins as a youth pastor and again as an adult pastor are a different situation. I didn’t see that explanation or whether or not you betrayed the trust placed in you as a youth and as an adult pastor.

JYJames wrote:

Aylward in China?
Amy Wilson Carmichael in India?
the ten Boom sisters in Holland and beyond?
John the Baptist in the Bible?

Then there’s the apostle Paul, Lottie Moon, and some dude that got nailed to an old rugged cross!

@ Ricco:
Secular article, yes.

Innumerable discoveries are made and benefit mankind, no matter the discoverer. Science. God is the One behind Science even if the discoverer is in some ways a dope. (And I get the sarc part, LOL.)

@ Anonymous Grandma:
All talk no action with those leaders. They crumbled when their dude-bro went off the rails.

@ Ken G:
I see what you are saying, but in the evangelical context, “wise counsel” often means “ask a church leader.” If those people are corrupt, you are going to get poor advice. Also, I have heard at my church that you can only get wise counsel from Christians. That would disqualify any “secular” source from giving a Christian “wise counsel.” That seems like a silly position, but that is the way “wise counsel” has been presented in the evangelical churches I have attended

Erp wrote:

Found when the clergman clause added, 1995, section 6, of SB15 (a huge bill, Acts 1995, 74th R.S.,ch. 318, General and Special Laws of Texas, page 734 of 750 of the pdf http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/LASDOCS/74R/SB15/SB15_74R.pdf#page=734). It took effect on Sept. 1, 1995.

Wow, Erp, good sleuthing!

Here is a timeline of events as I perceive they have unfolded over the past 10 days:

Fri 5 Jan. Jules Woodson releases her account of sexual assault by her Youth Pastor, Andy Savage, in 1998.

Sun 7 Jan. Andy Savage informs Chris Conlee that he is willing to resign from his pastoral position.
Chris Conlee admits that what Andy Savage is about to confess, he has known about for a lot longer than just the past few days.
Andy Savage confesses to a “sexual incident” during the Sunday worship service at Highpoint (and receives a standing ovation), but no announcement by Conlee/Savage of resignation or even leave of absence. (Would there have been the same reaction if there had been a disciplinary announcement commensurate with the gravity of the moral failure?)

Thur 11 Jan Andy Savage is interview by Ben Ferguson on radio. Savage announces that he will be taking a leave of absence. (Normally this would first be made public by the church leadership, not the individual under discipline, especially as it was suggested by Savage it was for the purposes of an investigation into his suitability to remain in ministry…unless it was not really about disciplinary procedures, but just a pastor announcing he is going to be taking a long paid holiday?)

Sat 13 Jan Highpoint make recordings of the radio interview available.

Sun 14 Jan Claims that the recorded version of the Savage interview have been edited.

Mon 15 Jan Full transcript of the interview revealed, but not by Highpoint. Redacted sections reveal that Highpoint leadership refused to accept Savage’s resignation, and chose to edit the interview to remove Andy Savage’s testimony which revealed the history of failure by pastors/leadership of Woodlands, Germantown and Highpoint churches, and the fact that they had enabled Savage to return and benefit from pastoral ministry for the past 20 years without him ever facing the full consequences of his immoral and illegal behaviour.

I will leave it up to each to now decide whether Highpoint and its leadership has any integrity or spiritual authority. This is very much about NOT doing anything more that brings dishonour to the name of Jesus Christ and his true church.

The issue of money as well as whether A. Savage was continuing to receive a salary were mentioned in earlier posts. According to the Shelby County Tax Assessor’s Website, both Andy Savage and C. Conlee live in Eads, TN, a suburb approximately 17 miles from Memphis. A. Savage’s Home is valued at $408,000.00; C. Conlee’s Home at $335,000.00; well above the mean property value of homes in Shelby County, which is $135,000.00.
Income of Head Pastors in large churches is an issue. Second Presby’s previous head pastor’s salary was at least $500,000.00.

@ Erp:
I suspect the courts would look less favorably on a pastor abusing a teenager, above the age of consent or not. (Sidenote, a legal adult is still 18, just because she was over the age of consent doesn’t mean she is not still a minor).

@ anonymous:
It’s ridiculous.

Erp wrote:

Found when the clergman clause added, 1995, section 6, of SB15 (a huge bill, Acts 1995, 74th R.S.,ch. 318, General and Special Laws of Texas, page 734 of 750 of the pdf http://www.lrl.state.tx.us/LASDOCS/74R/SB15/SB15_74R.pdf#page=734). It took effect on Sept. 1, 1995.

Then…. this would mean it was in effect when the assault happened?

@ JYJames:
I think I’d need to read the study, then. Maybe you were referencing a different issue.

Gary Boswell wrote:

I will leave it up to each to now decide whether Highpoint and its leadership has any integrity or spiritual authority.

IMO, if they submit to any spiritual authority, it is an evil spirit!

Lea wrote:

@ Erp:
I suspect the courts would look less favorably on a pastor abusing a teenager, above the age of consent or not. (Sidenote, a legal adult is still 18, just because she was over the age of consent doesn’t mean she is not still a minor).

True but that is more in the sentencing rather than the conviction. The judge might also when sentencing have considered his youth as extenuating circumstances especially if he had several pastors vouching for his character. Note also that he and others have downplayed that he was clergy during his time at her church.

There is the question of whether he was clergy as defined by Texas law (which can be different from whether he was clergy by his church’s view). If his role was offering spiritual advice and counseling youth, then I suspect the answer is yes.

It still was against the law at the time, though, which is something Savage has been claiming was not the case.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

“Hell will be highly populated with those who were “raised right.” The citizens of heaven will be those who, by the sheer grace and mercy of God, are there solely because of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.”

This quote from Mohler reveals what is wrong with New Calvinism – they have utterly distorted the gospel.

This false theology – that what you do doesn’t matter as long as you have the imputed righteousness of Christ – is what leads to a great deal of the abuse in the Institutional Church. Augustine, Luther and Calvin created this false system under which they could commit fornication a thousand times a day, according to Luther – all in the name of ‘saved by faith’. This is what you call ‘perversion’. The genuine meaning of righteousness by faith is essentially that God judges man’s heart, motivations and intentions, rather than demanding a sinless perfection that mortal man is incapable of. It does not mean God overlooks any and all sin as long as you recite the proper creeds.

In 2000, Chris Conlee was the “Pastor of Biblical Maturity” at Far Hills Baptist of Dayton:

https://web.archive.org/web/20001210125500/http://www.farhills.org:80/staff.htm

Can somebody help me figure out how being the Pastor of Biblical Maturity at the largest Southern Baptist church in Ohio in 2000 fits into the narratives Conlee has given of his life?:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100304065221/http://myprioritytime.com:80/about/

“In the midst of his collegiate golf career, Chris had a crisis of belief that led him to abandon his dream of golf and to relentlessly pursue the heart of God. After completing his bachelor’s degree from the University of Memphis and his Master of Divinity from Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary, Chris followed God’s direction to plant a church that would be a perfect place for imperfect people.”

http://www.highpointmemphis.com/chris-conlee

“Just over 20 years ago, the idea of pastoring a church wasn’t even on Chris Conlee’s radar. After graduating from the University of Memphis with a degree in Communications, he was busy pursuing a career in golf. However, God had other plans…A turning point came in October 2000 when God led Chris to abandon his dream and relentlessly pursue Him. For the first time, Chris realized life wasn’t about chasing his own dreams, but rather how he would serve the Lord’s purposes. It wasn’t about being a better person or living a happier life; it was about pouring God’s love into the lives of those around him. Chris had a total paradigm shift that shaped the journey he would soon embark upon. He started to see people through the lens of God’s perspective, and he began to pursue the Lord’s call on his life with the exact same passion with which he’d pursued his golfing career. Shortly after receiving his Masters of Divinity from the Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary, God spoke directly to Chris out of Exodus 3 and challenged him to act upon what God had been stirring in his heart: to plant a church.”

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

(Aside: Ever since the 2016 elections — and the later election circus around Roy Moore — I have been puzzled by American Evangelicals’ backing of Trump. I’m starting to come to an explanation, but still need some thinking it over. The basic idea is that the behavior, attitudes, and tropes of American Evangelicalism set up its members for “Trumpism” which fulfilled a lot of their expectations (from pulpits and MenaGAWD) for Godliness. Their loyalty just transferred over from their pulpits.)

And are we to conclude that you are NOT puzzled by individuals who identify as Christians and back Clinton? I will guess you are not puzzled and completely understand why such Christians support her.

Jerome wrote:

In 2000, Chris Conlee was the “Pastor of Biblical Maturity” at Far Hills Baptist of Dayton:

https://web.archive.org/web/20001210125500/http://www.farhills.org:80/staff.htm

Looks like Far Hills had their problems, too. Senior Pastor John Jackson resigned after admitting to an “unnamed sin” http://www.topix.com/forum/city/far-hills-nj/TR6G72DMO6HG5BIRB

These megas sure have their problems.

Ken G wrote:

I think you need to fully explain why your sins as a youth pastor and again as an adult pastor are a different situation. I didn’t see that explanation or whether or not you betrayed the trust placed in you as a youth and as an adult pastor.

I believe this is treading on shaky ground. This is one of the problems with making a public comment, do you have to give a detailed account of your own personal transgressions, I think no. I thank Ed Eubanks for his thoughtful post and am willing to concede his situation is different and leave it at that. Turning around and focusing on Eubanks sounds awfully close to a general inquisition.

Lydia wrote:

Wise council in this situation, even 20 years ago, would have been that such a lack of basic wisdom and self control as a youth pastor in a position of trust automatically disqualified him from ministry. Period.

Yes, that’s the bottom-line. Wisdom would not pass the young man up the line.

Dale Rudiger wrote:

slandered

It’s the magic word!

@ Lea:
Golf

That whole “wise counsel” thing is such a dodge. Mark Driscoll’s church in Scottsdale has a page called “wise counsel” and it includes such luminaries as Jimmy Evans and Robert Morris of DFW’s Gateway Church. The young earth creationist and convicted felon Kent Hovind went to 15 pastors–“wise counsel”–to see if it was ok for him to remarry after his wife of 43 years divorced him in 2016. And yes, it was ok (but the woman he married in September 2016 has since moved from Alabama to South Carolina for unknown reasons).

Based on those two examples, plus now the Andy Savage example, I’m convinced that “wise counsel” is just a dodge to avoid responsibility if things go pear-shaped.

“My ‘wise counsel’ told me this would be OK to do!”

Thersites wrote:

I believe this is treading on shaky ground. This is one of the problems with making a public comment, do you have to give a detailed account of your own personal transgressions, I think no.

The pastor made a definitive statement that his situation is different. For those like me who would like to understand his reasoning, I think it is a very fair question. He doesn’t need to give a detailed account of all his transgressions because that my not be of any help. In general, professionals are very willing to explain their position or how they arrived at a certain conclusion. I would feel very uncomfortable and begin looking elsewhere if a professional was unwilling or unable to share an explanation and pastors should not be given a pass.

Well, that was interesting. There’s a guy named Brooks Hansen on Twitter, I guess he’s some sort of sports guy (likes the University of Memphis Tigers). Apparently he’s also involved in some way in media in Memphis. Well, earlier today he put a Periscope (which is kind of like a video Twitter–my God, do I sound like an Old Person Explaining New Technology here LOL):

https://twitter.com/brookshansen247/status/953023881543147520

This video is about 9 minutes long. After a bit of a wait, he talks about the kinds of edits done on the audio files from the Ben Ferguson show and he’s pretty critical of Ben Ferguson.

Then at about 6:10 Brooks drops a bombshell. Andy Savage did the interview with Ben Ferguson from Dallas. Because Andy was in Dallas on Thursday with other Highpoint leaders. Which is where Ministry Safe is located. Brooks strongly suggests that the interview was “specifically concocted to get out a specific message.” Brooks also hints broadly that the interview was edited as part of getting that message out.

Earlier in the video he’d alluded to how much time it takes to get a recording out and it’s not very long. Like But it took over a day for this recording (which we now know to be doctored) to get out and it wasn’t due to technical difficulties (my read). My opinion is that Ben Ferguson was working with Andy Savage, Chris Conlee and who knows else to put out an edited version of Andy’s interview. Which was already a creampuff interview to start out with!

(I KNEW I should have just recorded the interview using Audacity, but that would have required me to be awake during the interview and I desperately needed a nap at that point. Next time…)

@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:

FYI…Brooks Hansen is a brave man who called out the pastor who sexually abused him as a child and the head pastor who covered it up (as well as the pedophile abuse of others). It should surprise no one that the church where that happened merged with…wait for it… Highpoint, and Conlee/Savage worked ruthlessly to mis-classify the merger, so that the boys (now men) would be denied justice.

Great guys we have in the pastorate, eh?
#kickthem2thecurb #justice

AbuseCrusher wrote:

FYI…Brooks Hansen is a brave man who called out the pastor who sexually abused him as a child and the head pastor who covered it up (as well as the pedophile abuse of others). It should surprise no one that the church where that happened merged with…wait for it… Highpoint, and Conlee/Savage worked ruthlessly to mis-classify the merger, so that the boys (now men) would be denied justice.

Great guys we have in the pastorate, eh?
#kickthem2thecurb #justice

OMG! That explains his passion for the subject! Thank you so much for the background!

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

know in more liturgical churches they tend to rotate the pastors through the services

We do this, although I would say the senior pastor preaches most often. But they sermons are a short part of the service. A lay person will do the liturgy, a different pastor general does the prayer, someone else does the children’s sermon, etc. I’m sure that helps some.

@ Ken F (aka Tweed):
I wonder if this comes from a theology of God punishing sin. God will punish everyone for their sins unless he sees Jesus’ blood when he looks that them, then he won’t. I’ve been thinking now if, in lots of instances, sin is it’s own punishment. This seems to make sense with things like substance abuse and unforgiveness. We hurt ourselves in these ways and the consequences can be painful without God punishing us. A well-functioning legal system punished people when they hurt other people.

I heard someone say once that heaven is a place where we deal with each other in absolute honesty. Can you imagine having to face someone you hurt without being able to justify and deflect. That sounds like a difficult punishment.

I guess I’m just spitballing here. What I think I know is that God’s wrath is his fury at anything that hurts his children (read: everyone). He’s not a schoolmarm slapping us on the wrist for not tithing enough. He “takes sin seriously” because he is wrathfully opposed to anything that hurts his little ones. He really cares about the hurts we cause others, especially ones done in his name. I think he particularly hates that.

dee wrote:

Parker Dax and College Boy are one and the same and his comments are not allowed.
Miss Girl Bye is banned as well.

Are they connected with “Smart Woman” who commented earlier this evening on the initial piece about Savage?

@ Lea:
Not necessarily. Your point is well-taken. I was just making note of another situation.

The whole idea of phantom signals rings true when folks “read into” something/someone they are feeling themselves and not meant by the other person.

Thanks for the discourse.

Gary Boswell wrote:

Here is a timeline of events as I perceive they have unfolded over the past 10 days:

thanks for posting this, and thanks to the other posters as well, this has been a triggering event and seeing it called what it really is- victim blaming and cover-up step by step has been so helpful for me.

Jerome wrote:

from Andy Savage’s staff bio at Highpoint in 2008:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080520234136/http://www.highpointmemphis.com:80/staff
“Andy Savage: Teaching Pastor & Creative Thinker
Things I love: My wife’s legs…”

Wow.

sandy c wrote:

Doesnt this mean the statute of limitations is eliminated in Jules case also??

While SOL in the civil arena may apply, there should be no statue of limitations in church when it comes to pastors who fail morally. They have betrayed the trust of the Body of Christ. They have disqualified themselves from ministry. When repentant, they should be forgiven but not restored to ministry. There are other ways to serve in the Body of Christ.

Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

It’s as if the rationale is “God no longer cares about my past sins, so neither should anyone else.”

There are even My Little Pony fanfics that put the lie to that.

AbuseCrusher wrote:

Ben Ferguson addressed the edits on his show today in the first few minutes. After viciously attaching Amy Smith at Watchkeep as a “liar” over the weekend (IN ALL CAPS, NO LESS),

Vigorously denouncing counter-revolutionary Thoughtcrimes against The Party.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Just “Want. Take. Simple.”

Ha, I just posted Buffy’s ‘Want, Take, Have’ in the other thread.
https://youtu.be/XYGCjKmWkMc

Max wrote:

There are other ways to serve in the Body of Christ.

Church groundskeeper. Now that would really be “organic”!

Eric Bonetti wrote:

Taken as a whole, churches are really bad at handling abuse of any sort.

Agreed. But when it comes to a pastor accused of sexual abuse, the basics should always be:

(1) Suspend pastor immediately
(2) Call 911 (civil authorities investigate alleged crimes, not churches)
(3) Reach out to the victim
(4) Inform church
(5) Never cover it up and never pass your problem to another church

Max wrote:

sandy c wrote:
Doesnt this mean the statute of limitations is eliminated in Jules case also??
While SOL in the civil arena may apply, there should be no statue of limitations in church when it comes to pastors who fail morally. They have betrayed the trust of the Body of Christ. They have disqualified themselves from ministry. When repentant, they should be forgiven but not restored to ministry. There are other ways to serve in the Body of Christ.

This is it. In the body of Christ it has to be different.

Muff Potter wrote:

Cannon fodder. Use up the infantry first, then let the cavalry go in before they can fully reload.

Because in European military traditions, Infantry were always Commoners (Lowborn) while Cavalry started out as Aristocrats (Highborn).

Daisy wrote:

The “Me Too” movement was never meant to be limited to rape only, but to any sort of sexist behavior against women on the job.

But there are two big errors that can happen (and probably will in a polarized Age of Extremes). Sin-levelling Up and Sin-levelling Down, both caused by denying that this is a “spectrum disorder”, with rape at the high end and stupid sexist talk at the low end.

Saying that only rape produces “real” victims is to minimize other abusive behaviors women endure. Women are basically being told to put up with any and all other forms of dehumanizing, demoralizing behavior except for rape, which I find disgusting. And puzzling.

That is Sin-levelling Down. (AKA the MRA response.)

But the Me Too movement has to watch itself for signs of Sin-levelling Up, pushing everything to the top of the rape spectrum and going witch-hunting for sexism real or imagined. At which point we have Celebrity Deathmatch: MeToo vs the MRA/Manosphere with the rest of us as collateral damage. (It’s happened to True Beleivers and mass movements before.)

“Andy Savage’s standing ovation was heard around the world. Because it was wrong.” – Ed Stetzer

“Standing ovation” =
o/~
“O Come Let Us Adore Him,
O Come Let Us Adore Him,
O COME LET US ADOOOOOOORE HIIIIIIIIIIM…”