“Once in our world, a stable had something in it that was bigger than our whole world.” CS Lewis link
Christmas Schedule: We will post E Church and a repeat of my Christmas Eve spent in an old mountain bar. We will not post again until Wednesday. Merry Christmas!
TWW series on biblical counseling is getting noticed.
I have been getting feedback from professors and professional counselors who are encouraging us in this series. They particularly like our direct quotes from the actual sources. I plan to continue this series, once a week, until I feel like I have significantly covered what is available out there.
Here is a list of the articles in the series thus far. (Click on title to read the post.)
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Part 1: The Biblical Counseling Movement and Timberlake Baptist Church and Counseling Center
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What is the Difference Between Nouthetic and Biblical Counseling? Just the Spelling
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Biblical Counseling: Anyone Can Do It, Sin Is the Focus, Confidentiality Is Not Guaranteed and Women Should Beware
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Biblical Counseling Training: Inadequate Education, Problematic Resources and Questionably Educated Leaders
Phase 2: The Exam
After the students have listened to the 30 hours of lectures and read their choice of 1,000 pages of books as outlined in our post last week, Biblical Counseling Training: Inadequate Education, Problematic Resources and Questionably Educated Leaders, they are now tested on their knowledge. Please remember this is the ACBC certification process. We will look at the other groups and compare them at a later date. We will look at Phase 3 next week.
The exam consists of two parts: theology and counseling.
The *easy peasy* format: Plenty of help is available.
These open book, essay exams are completed at home and sent in for evaluation. There appears to be an expectation that each answer will be 1 1/2 pages in length on a 12 font, 1.5 spaced Word document which puts it about 375-560 words (If my math is correct!) per answer.
If the students don’t pass, they need not panic. Usually they will be assigned to do rewrites and they can even talk to the grader about what was done wrong so they can redo it!
Your exams are graded on a pass, rewrite, or fatal error basis. If you are required to submit a rewrite, your grader will give input to help you deepen your understanding of the topic. He will be available for further discussion, when necessary. You will have three months to submit your rewrites from the date your graded exams are emailed to you.
Students can even study and figure it out with a friend!
You can study for your exams with someone else. However, each person must do his/her own individual study on the topic, and you must write your answers individually.
The purpose for working together is accountability, encouragement and sharpening. It is not to cut the work load in half.
The theology part of the exam: Do you believe what ACBC believes?
Please download the PDF in order to see all of the questions. ACBC lists a total of 24 questions for this part of the exam.
If I am reading this correctly, the students simply take their time and, working with or without a friend, answer the questions. However, they must write their own answer. I would expect that this section would focus on questions dealing directly with the theological impact on counseling. However, I am not sure that this is the focus. It seems to me to be a rather simplistic query into basic biblical beliefs. My guess is that the students” answers would need to be predicated on the theological bias of this particular group. I will list some of the questions that I found most interesting. (Numbers correspond to my responses in the next section.)
Describe the biblical understanding of manhood and womanhood from both an egalitarian and complementarian perspective. Explain which view you embrace and outline why you believe it to be the most biblical.(1)
Explain the doctrine of common grace relating the doctrine to the ability of secular psychologists to understand true information about the human condition.(2)
Explain the doctrine of the noetic effects of sin relating the doctrine to the ability of secular psychologists to understand true information about the human condition (2)
Describe your position on the nature of continuing revelation (i.e., prophecy, tongues, words of knowledge). In particular explain whether you believe prophecy is a present gift in today’s church. Explain the relationship between your understanding of the gift of prophecy and the sufficiency of Scripture.(3)
Describe the sufficiency of Scripture. Relate the doctrine of the sufficiency of Scripture to the practice of biblical counseling. Research and respond to the arguments of at least one integrationist or Christian Psychologist regarding the insufficiency of Scripture for counseling.(4)
What role should the church play in the counseling process? (5)
Question/concerns about the theology exam questions and assumptions.
(1) Since ACBC has a statement that they believe in complementarianism, I wonder what would happen if someone professed a belief in egalitarianism. Here is a direct quote from ACBC which we documented in a post.
…God made mankind in two complementary genders of male and female who are equal in dignity and worth. Men are called to roles of spiritual leadership particularly in the home and in the church. Women are called to respond to and affirm godly servant leadership particularly in the church and home.
(2)These questions discussing secular psychologist is particular fascinating since ACBC adamantly stands against any sort of secular psychology. I am not even sure what the define as *secular.*
Because the central elements of counseling include God, the nature of the human problem, and God’s solution in Christ, the counseling methods of secular people are ultimately at odds with a uniquely biblical approach to counseling.
In fact, the head of ACBC, Heath Lambert, appears to believe that even a Christian who practices psychology is unbiblical as demonstrated by his rather arrogant attack on a fellow colleague. One must question how ACBC defines *secular.* It seems to me that they may define secular as anything that does not agree with their beliefs.
(3) This interesting question on charismatic gifts brings back memories that I am sure Al Mohler and SBTS (where Heath Lambert is a professor) would rather us forget. Al Mohler is a BFF of CJ Mahaney who leads a ministry which has been all in, in the past, with prophecy, speaking in tongues, etc. CJ also used to call himself the Head Apostle. I wonder how they reconcile this with their intimate relationship? We will be discussing Sovereign Grace Ministries and their tie in with the biblical counseling movement in a future post. I could not find a statement on charismatic gifting so I am going to make a guess. ACBC is not excited about charismatic belief.
(4) Note the assumption in this question. Scripture is sufficient for counseling. Who needs research? Who needs medication?
(5) This question is important to note because ACBC apparently believes that the church should have significant input into counseling. This means that there is a possibility that counseling confidentiality is not considered a biblically important value.
The counseling part of the exam
Once again, download a PDF of the questions. Here are a few questions that jumped out at me.
Describe in biblical categories the operations of the devil. Is there a difference between Believers and unbelievers regarding the activity of the devil? What is a biblical methodology for responding to the demonic in the context of counseling? (1)
Describe the role you believe church discipline should play in biblical counseling.(2)
Describe what you believe to be the role of confidentiality in biblical counseling. What kind of commitment to confidentiality should a biblical counselor make? What biblical and practical considerations limit confidentiality? What is the responsibility of a biblical counselor to report to civil authorities on matters of domestic violence, sexual abuse, and other illegal matters? How should biblical counselors cooperate with the authorities about these things? (3)
(1) Wow, demons!!! I cannot, for the life of me, see these poorly educated students making decisions about demons, ever!! Major red flag!!!
(2) And here it is, folks- church discipline and counseling. Counseling should be confidential and that there is no way the counselors should be reporting anything to the church. If there is abuse involved, that should be reported directly to the authorities.
(3) As you can see from this question, there are all sorts of ways to skirt the usually confidentiality on expects from a counselor. This is a major concern of mine. This week I spoke with a woman whose story I shall be presenting whose pastor broke confidentiality and reported intimate details to members of the church. I am also hoping the the answer to reporting abuse is always, always always repot abuse first to the authorities.
An assignment for TWW readers: How would you answer this question on the ACBC exam?
I have some ideas but I decided to keep my lips zipped. I will weigh in the next couple of days. Please pay particular attention to the questions asked at the end. I have noticed something in many of the ACBC questions. They give you the answer they expect in how they ask the question.
Tim and Emily
Tim and Emily come from a church across town, and have asked to meet you because of some help that you offered their friends several months ago. They are coming because of a persistent problem they have had in their marriage. They explain that in their six years of marriage Tim has always had a “short fuse.” He regularly “loses it” when he comes home from work which fills the evenings with tense communication. Their weeks are filled with arguments about everything from dinner being ready on time, to whether they should have kids. Tim thinks Emily is a good wife, admits the problems are his fault, but says he just doesn’t know how to “maintain control.” About a year ago Tim went berserk screaming at Emily, kicking the kitchen table and throwing plates on the floor in response to Emily’s complaint that he came home late without calling. Emily was always uncomfortable with Tim’s previous pattern of outbursts, but this was different. She was truly scared. Tim was too. In tears she told Tim that something had to change.Tim talked to his pastor who told him that he needed to see a professional therapist. Tim followed the advice and made an appointment with the Christian counselor whom his pastor recommended. Tim met with the therapist for a few sessions, who ultimately recommended he see a psychiatrist for medical care. When Tim met with the psychiatrist he was told that he had bi-polar disorder and began to take the medications prescribed by the physician.
Tim was initially discouraged to learn that he had a disease that would likely last his entire life, but he was thankful to have a plan to deal with problem. Emily was also encouraged that there was now at least something they could do.
Their encouragement quickly gave way, however, when after several months on the medication Tim had still not really changed. While his temperament seemed milder in general the loss of control, and screaming were still present. It was at this point that Emily began to regret ever marrying Tim. All the arguments together with the couple’s lack of children were taking their toll. She realized she was in a marriage that she did not want to be in, but didn’t think she had any options.
Then last week Tim “went completely crazy.” Emily suggested on a Saturday morning that Tim should cut the grass because he had not done it the week before. Tim did more than scream and throw things this time. As he yelled and became more “worked up” he threw the phone at Emily. He missed her, knocking a hole in the wall, but they both knew he had crossed a line.
Emily said she couldn’t take it anymore and wanted out of the marriage. She told him that if something didn’t change very quickly she was going to leave. That is when he reached out to his friend who recommended you.
Tim and Emily both profess faith in Christ, and relate their testimonies of conversion in their teen years. Both are also terribly discouraged. Tim doesn’t know how to treat Emily better since he is “plagued” by this disease. Emily loves Tim and would like their marriage to work, but she is worn out with the lack of change. She feels badly about wanting to leave because she knows he has an illness, but she is increasingly convinced that God is telling her to divorce Tim.
1. How will you decide whether to pursue Tim and Emily as believers or unbelievers? What difference will their status as Christians make in your counseling?
2. Describe, as fully as you are able, your strategy to help Tim and Emily think biblically about his diagnosis and their use of bi-polar and illness language.
3. Emily is “Convinced that God is telling her to divorce Tim.” Write out your word-for-word response to Emily on this matter. In your response, be sure to address the themes of biblical decision-making and permission for divorce and remarriage.
4. What strategy would you employ to see repentance, reconciliation, and restoration happen between Tim and Emily?
5. Describe a detailed plan of restoring marital communication that you would pursue with Tim and Emily.
We wish you a wonderful Christmas celebration with your family. We also know that many of you have a hard time during Christmas due to complicated family situations. Please know that the birth of Jesus made you part of a bigger family- the Body of Christ. May you experience the hope He brings us all.
First???
second
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
You whooooo!
4
The Tim & Emily scenario is a typical domestic abuse story, even down to the abusive husband being diagnosed with a mental health condition and the treatment of the condition having very little to no effect on his abusiveness.
The questions ACBC ask re the Tim & Emily story are typical of the woman-oppressing line that biblical counselors take on domestic abuse.
I am going to be publishing a series on Chris Moles in the early new year. Chris Moles is a biblical counselor who has written and spoken a lot about ‘working with abusive men’. His teaching has a few good points but the bad aspects far outweigh the few good things is teaching. And yes, Chris is a member of ACBC… and is scheduled as one of their speakers at their 2018 Conference which will be about Domestic Abuse.
Stay tuned!
I’d like to comment more later. When I saw this part: “Tim and Emily”
I thought, “this must be a martial problem.”
Because these counselors are complementarian, I can tell off the bat the problem is (of course!) with the wife. The husband is slacking off on his Spiritual Servent Leader Manly Man Role, and the wife is not submitting enough.
That is just a guess, and I’ve not read any further past the “Tim And Emily” heading. 🙂
Regarding Number 1 of the questions/Concerns about the Exam (The Quote):
I’d like to ask them what the justification is for putting “spiritual” in front of “leadership” for men and “servant” in front of “leadership” for women (I was under the impression that all Christian leaders, male or female, are supposed to be servant leaders).
I think I know what their answer would be – I wonder if their language is giving them away.
I’d flunk hands down. Probably have my Christianity called into question as I disagree with them on multiple counts. Not to mention having undergone secular counseling and been on medication.
Well, my thought was that if Tim is not getting any real relief on his medication, he needs to see his psychiatrist immediately to have a medication adjustment, a change of medication, or *gasp* even bringing in a secular counselor to work with Tim on his responses to situations.
Oh and this also raised a red flag to me:
Tim was initially discouraged to learn that he had a disease that would likely last his entire life,
I wonder if these “biblical” counselors recognize there are some forms of mental illness that will be with people their entire lives? I remember when I was in the hospital back in 1999, the doctor told me flatly that I would have to take medication for the rest of my life. I sure didn’t want to hear it, and there were a couple of times early on when I slacked off on medication with deleterious results (although not a return trip to the hospital). But I get the uncomfortable feeling these guys don’t believe in lifelong mental illness, particularly in light of this question:
2. Describe, as fully as you are able, your strategy to help Tim and Emily think biblically about his diagnosis and their use of bi-polar and illness language.
It sounds like a counselor is supposed to talk them out of his medical diagnosis and tell them to use biblical language to describe his bipolar disorder. I can’t stop shaking my head on this. They’d never tell a plumber to describe plumbing in biblical terms, but they think they can describe mental illness in biblical terms? Is the next step going to be to tell Tim he shouldn’t be taking his medications?
There’s so much more on this, I could riff on the entire thing, but what I come away with is this–Tim and Emily should leave that church! They have a problem and they need to find a church that will work with them to face it head-on, not try to cover it up by turning to biblical language and talk of submission and sin-sniffing.
The whole example upsets me greatly!
1. How will you decide whether to pursue Tim and Emily as believers or unbelievers? What difference does their status as Christians make in your counseling?
:: Has anyone ever seen a counselor “pursue” someone who needed their help? “Pursue” makes Tim and Emily sound like prey, not people. ::
Because all they have is a hammer, nouthetics see nothing but nails. No matter what type of problem someone has, a nouthetics will see them as either (a) a believer who is suffering from their own disobedience to God, or (b) a reprobate who is suffering from their own rebellion against God. They really do engage in rather childlike magical thinking. In the noutheitic world, people who follow God’s rules don’t have problems, so if YOU have PROBLEMS then YOU’RE DOING IT RONG.
I have a friend who is currently seeing a nouthetic counselor. Rather than directly addressing my friend’s specific problem, the counselor has given my friend hours of bible study homework and verses to memorize. Whenever my friend tries to discuss the issue she went to the counselor about, the counselor tells her she’s not thinking biblically, she is indulging in the sin of impatience and bitterness, and then gives her more homework and more verses. It’s as if the counselor is intentionally trying to exasperate my friend so she can accuse my friend of sinning.
Biblical counselling = ooo eee ooo eee aaa bing bang walla walla bing bang ooo eee ooo eee aaa walla walla bing bang bang
I think I could pass the test and that’s a scary thought!
This “test” is nothing to do with a person’s qualification to bind up the brokenhearted, and everything to do with a test of how conformed they are mentally to a chosen doctrinal stance.
When considering cults and cultic behaviour, including that described above, I’m often reminded of the following line spoken by Richard Dreyfus’s character in Jaws:
Of course, the phrase “miracle of evolution” triggers a certain kind of response, but ironically, I find it singularly appropriate. This approach to “evangelism” has emerged as a very successful one at building empires over the centuries. It has cast out and demonised the Holy Spirit and made Him the enemy; thus freeing those who have nothing of the Holy Spirit to rise to the top. And all this machine does is market, and eat, and make converts who go out and make more converts, to make more converts. And that’s all. It doesn’t proclaim, much less achieve, justice for the poor and the oppressed. It doesn’t heal the sick and raise the dead – it doesn’t even “spiritually” heal the “inwardly” sick, declaring instead that it’s “successes” cannot be measured and aren’t meant to produce any evidence.
It just swims, and eats, and makes little sharks.
@ Jenny:
Oh the homework verses. I remember those. I also had to read the “Bitterness Book.” I guess that was to see if I was bitter.
Not good times…
>When Tim met with the psychiatrist he was told that he had bi-polar disorder and began to take the medications prescribed by the physician.
Describes anger only as a symptom.
Claims this mythological person was dx with bi polar disease.
These ‘counselors’ writing the question have NO clue what bipolar disorder even is!
Beyond that they clearly switched right back to blaming Emily for all of the problems. No wonder these idiots are causing destruction everywhere!
So I’m with my in-laws over Christmas, and they are big into deliverance ministry and spiritual warfare. I’ve wanted to deal with it by composing demon-themed Christmas songs, but my wife doesn’t want me to ruin her favorite season.
I would love to hear what you all think about demons and demonic activity. I have found thinking about the true self/false self dichotomy that Brennan Manning and Brad Jersak to be far more helpful in finding a way through negative thoughts and emotions. If demons do attack people, I don’t believe that people can be truly “possessed” and all they can really do is lie to you and try to deceive you as to who you really are. What do you all think?
@ Jenny:
That sounds completely useless!
I don’t understand what these people think the point of counseling is. If I wanted a bible study I would go to bible study!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I was baffled by the relevance on the questions of whether prophecies have ceased (which is an argument I got into with my 3rd grade teacher for some reason) until I read the thing about how Emily can’t possibly be trusted on what she feels led to do.
I guess for this system to work they have to convince people
1. You cannot have anything you think or feel that counts
2. God is not speaking in any way anymore but through a book, and
3. Our interpretation of said book is the only correct one.
Then they can just tell you what to do. Easy peasy.
I think this exposure is excellent as you are using their own words. Next thing they want to hear is that Emily would be wrong for wanting a divorce. I think Emily should just have an affair so Tim has biblical reasons to divorce het! Gotta have an affair to get out…right??? So what if he’s dangerous!!!
Abigail wrote:
She would get blamed an equal amount or possibly even less for an affair! Divorce is clearly the worstest sin in the world to these folks. Maybe next to being a woman in general. Because that makes everything wrong your fault, for ‘role related’ reasons.
@ Abigail:
Honestly the more I think of it the madder I get. There is literally nothing Emily would be allowed to do but suffer and die in this situation.
@ Lea:
Yup! When you destroyed a person’s ability to trust what they think or feel, they are forced to rely on what “leaders” tell them. Some people would say you should rely on the Bible. I agree to a point, but all bible reading is interpretation to one extent or another. Whose interpretation will you trust. If you come to the “wrong” conclusion, are you a heretic.
Look of Gal. 1:16 in the KJV. It says God revealed his Son “in” Paul. This was Saul the murderer of Stephen before his conversion. We can trust our heart because that is where Jesus lives. We can hold up our desires to the Light of Jesus and figure out which course to take.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The “test” is pretty much useless, except to place burdens on already burdened people. But that’s what these kind of programs consist of. Anyone can tell a person to read certain scriptures, memorize verses, stay sweet or man up, etc.
What people need is healing, comfort, medicine, love, hope of better days ahead….
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nick, thanks for providing a singularly appropriate insight. “Biblical counseling” is not the only corner of Christianity where this applies. The YEC/anti-evolution advocates also appear to be the terminal stage of this kind of thinking, but in a different domain.
Lea wrote:
Precisely. They’d probably struggle to deny that “Jesus” is “the way” (in some empty figurative sense) to God, but they must at all costs make you believe that they are the way to “Jesus”.
Ricco wrote:
Well, it was only a matter of time before you all invited demons to dinner. Typical of this wretched hive of scum and villainy.
You’re all rubbish.
Up Yours,
Roger Bombast
I couldn’t pass…..nor would I want to…..( actually I probably could. I passed all the Texas teacher’s exams by thinking like the nitwits who wrote the test…..)
“All the arguments together with the couple’s lack of children were taking their toll.”
I’d advise E to get on birth control RIGHT NOW! And if she decides against all wisdom to stay with him, she should consider a tubal ligation.
From the ACBC website under “STANDARDS OF DOCTRINE”, (emphasis mine):
“V. The Doctrine of Divine Grace. Salvation is thoroughly a work of divine grace from beginning to end. Before the foundation of the world the Father elected to save a people who would compose the church. Jesus Christ purchased the salvation of those individuals through his life, death, and resurrection. The Holy Spirit applies the work of Christ to all who believe, creating the gift of faith in their hearts, and he keeps them in that faith forever.”
Jay Adams is a Calvinist. Heath Lambert is a Calvinist.
Must one be a Calvinist to be an ACBC counselor? If so, how does counseling mesh with TULIP?
K.D. wrote:
I’d flunk on purpose!
Maybe Calvinism and biblical counseling are linked through total depravity. If you believe in total depravity, then the “secular” world has nothing to offer you because it is all bad.
The exception to this would be medicine, but if you split the body from the spirit, then you can view medicine that heals the meat machine as good but medicine that works on the mind as evil.
I think this thinking is flawed because I don’t believe tota depravity anymore, but I’m trying to understand.
I am loving your comments on the exam question!! You are one smart group of people!
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
This needs to be hammered home and shouted from the rooftops. The entire body of Christ needs to know that ‘biblical’ counseling = New Calvinist counseling.
Mae wrote:
If I understand you aright, you’re basically saying they need good news. Now, if only there were some good news…
Here’s a thing, though. The new testament writers made regular use of the everyday Greek word for “good news”. It wasn’t a brand, or a theological term, it meant nothing more or less than “good news” and it signified exactly what it said on the tin.
The theological term “Gospel™”, on the other hand, is not an everyday word and is perfect for re-branding with an obscure and toxic meaning.
dee wrote:
No, they’re not. They’re all rubbish.
Up Yours (and theirs too, and everyone else’s, come to that),
Roger Bombast
I’m curious to find out what their stance is on the practice of demonic exorcism. Do or have any of them ever pulled a Mark Driscoll?
Well, my first observation is that Tim and Emily should ONLY be counseled separately. Counseling them together is worse than useless… it will actually make things worse… it gives Tim the opportunity to blame shift on to Emily, and then Emily will accept the blame because that’s what Christian victims of abuse are programmed to do. Emily desperately needs the opportunity to safely unburden her heart to someone who will listen without any judgment or condemnation. Yes, Emily is also a sinner, but what is happening here has NOTHING to do with her sin. Tim had this “anger” problem long before he met Emily and he’ll have it long after she is gone. It has nothing to do with her except that she happens to live under the same roof and experience the fall-out.
If you are required to submit a rewrite, your grader will give input to help you deepen your understanding of the topic. He will be available for further discussion, when necessary.
Obviously “grader” is another office Paul reserved exclusively to men…
Christians must be thankful for the display of God’s common grace that leads many experts in the field of secular psychology to know much true information, from which Christians can learn a great deal.
@ L. Lee:
He gives directives, she does the work? Boss and drone?
Well clearly their lack of children means that Emily is not fulfilling her God given role & it is the frustration of having such an ungodly home life that is fuelling Tim’s anger. If she repents of this & asks Tim to forgive her, & sets her mind to respecting him by constant submission & bearing many children, then he will be enabled to be less angry & to come off the medication as his bi-polar is not a medical condition, it is the results of his wife’s disobedience.
Their communication will be repaired if she listens & obeys to his husbandly commands.
Simple. (Like anyone who believes this stuff).
We can’t be surprised at the path biblical counselling heads down. These folks believe the bible literally so of course there are demons.
All of mental illness, or relationship problems or domestic violence or abuse is boiled down to a binary (and simplistic) “good” (as defined by strict biblical literalism) or “bad” (using biblically literal criteria)
So a gay teen gets the message “god hates you and wants you dead”. Women are told to submit to abusive husbands. Children must forgive their now repentant abusers.
No consideration of any external influences like past experiences, economic, medical pathology, poverty, ptsd.
No! We must party like it’s 999bc.
All we need is a talking donkey and we’re off at the races.
I worked for a long time in a mental health facility. It’s not a game!
These clowns and their dumb butt test are the worst of Christianity writ large.
drstevej wrote:
Yes. This would be nice. I just don’t see many Christians embracing this concept. They prefer to take the view that God cannot work through non Christians. I wish they would read scripture and learn.
“she is increasingly convinced that God is telling her to divorce Tim”
Maybe because her parents are telling her to ditch Tim, her friends are telling her to move on, and her co-workers think she is over-analyzing and should simply divorce the bully. I guess “God” hasn’t spoken until the “pastor” gives the okay.
Bridget wrote:
Actually, I copied this from the ACBC site. It is thesis 41 of 95
https://biblicalcounseling.com/ninety-five/
I agree with this particular ACBC statement.
I am also noting in the Tim and Emily narrative a dig at the “professional therapist”. Number one is they have Tim’s treatment as entirely ineffective and there is no follow-up to understand why. Number two I would question the bipolar diagnosis as there is only a description of bullying and not of mood swings or depression. Who ever wrote this implausible “story” did not put together one that makes sense.
drstevej wrote:
Oh my! Continue reading after number 41 and it’s a complete disaster.
Roger Bombast wrote:
I was waiting for you to show up, Roger! No conversation here would be complete without you. Have a Merry Christmas!
Bridget wrote:
Yep, I would not send people to them for counseling training.
1. This is a stupid question. They claimed to be believers and that is what it is.
2. Stupid…again. they can do their thinking later. Its now time for collision avoidance. Emily can not allow any pregnancy. Tim likely has severe limitations on what can and cannot be said to him with triggering a sudden reaction. She cant ask him to be something he is not.
A sepration may be the logical way to pause long enough to dicide what she is willing to tolerate. It should not be annouce to Tim alone, or in an isolated location.
Here is my shot at the answers to these questions:
1. I won’t “pursue them.” If they tell me they are Christians, I will respect their beliefs. If they tell me they aren’t Christians, I will respect their beliefs.
2. The word “bi-polar” isn’t in the bible. Psychologists, who were given their dreams and talents by God, have studied the human brain and personalities to be better able to help people. Tim should listen to his doctors and seek their help. He should understand that God still loves him and wants him to learn how to deal with his illness so he can live a full life and love the people he is in relationship with.
3. I would ask Emily why she believes God is telling her to divorce Tim and LISTEN to her. I would advise her to listen to what the police say if they have been involved. If I was her friend, I would definitely recommend her to move out for her own safety. She could visit Tim, but always with someone else present until he is safe to be around.
4. Tim would need to get his meds figured out and be able to control his anger. If he was safe to be around, I would encourage Emily to pursue reconciliation if she wanted to AND if I thought he was safe for her. Without either of those two factors in place, I would not encourage reconciliation.
5. IF they chose to reconcile, and IF I thought they could safely do this, then communication strategies would be helpful. Without those two factors present, this discussion would be pointless.
Do I pass? Do I get my totally meaning less Biblical(tm) Counseling ™ certificate?
Also, in my understanding, real counselors don’t usually give advice. Their work is much more geared towards listening and letting the patient construct the right answer for them with the help of the counselor.
Nathan Priddis wrote:
If Tim has anger management problems now, with violent outbursts, how is he going to behave with a sick or teething baby crying most of the night???
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
It almost sounds like what you are saying is that filling their quiver won’t solve all their problems. I’m shocked! SHOCKED!!
Thersites wrote:
Exactly. Mania and depression do not equal physical abuse. There is a different problem. Of course, this whole example is cleary written by people who have no idea what a bipolar diagnosis even means.
Hoo boy, where to start.
There is questioning of a diagnoses given by a psychiatrist, casting asperation on whether there is such a thing as “bipolar” and whether medication is good or not. Plumber trying to do heart surgery much?
Tim’s issue is not only bipolar – he is a classic power/control abuser that is escalating. He is already using physical abuse (the throwing things, using physical presence to get his own way, etc) – this is a VERY dangerous situation, the marital equivalent of cancer, not the lifestyle counselling “common cold” equivalent.
Tim has already committed a crime – domestic violence, numerous instances.
How do you deal with this? Get the safety aspect dealt with first, do domestic violence risk assessments, go over the Duluth Models for abusive and non-abusive relationships and DO NOT COUNSEL TOGETHER. Be someone completely trained in domestic violence intervention or get someone like that on board.
Divorce or not is a discussion for later – you need someone for Tim, trained in abuser intervention. You need someone for Nikki, trained in victim dynamics and how to keep an abused wife safe. IMO, if someone hubristically thinks that they can “fix” a DV situation like this and the victim is injured or killed, there should be liability for practicing outside of their capability assessed to the counsellor, just like we would with first aid attendants, doctors, or other medical providers.
Jack wrote:
Lol!!! I remember that song.
Lea wrote:
I was thinking the same as both of you.
His behavior as described doesn’t line up with bipolar disorder. He sounds generally abusive, but he may and/or be NPD. Maybe he’s anti-social. Maybe there’s also something off in his brain where he struggles with impulse control. Maybe a combination of various things, clustering together, on top of him being an abusive person. A ton of possibilities that more accurately line up with how they describe him.
So their hypothetical example (though ny guess is it’s probably loosely or not so loosely based on a real life situation/s they have encountered) isn’t even in line with what a doctor or psychiatrist would diagnose in real life.
But to them, understanding the nuances and differences between personality or mood disorders and/or brain issues seemingly isn’t important to them anyways. No use in portraying and representing their “opponents” and competing ideas correctly, a natural outworking of their condescension and dismissiveness toward it all.
Having dealt with three bipolar relatives, one very much like “Tim” I would say:
Tim needs to see his dr. Often it takes several tries to get bipolar under control. If his meds are ineffective he needs different meds. He also needs secular counselling to help him learn to cope without the anger issues. Bipolars CAN have anger and impulse control issues, especially if manic or worse yet, in a mixed state. If he is on anti depressant without mood stabilizer his anger outbursts can indeed be made worse on meds.
She needs a domestic violence counsellor to help her come up with a safe exit strategy. Personally, I would have no problem with her divorcing him for safety. If she has strong scruples re divorce she can legally separate or divorce and not remarry. She should talk to a good geneticist before having kids with him since bipolar can run in families.
They don’t need this “Biblical counselling” although each of them, separately, probably needs a good mature Christian mentor or two to walk with them through this and call them to accountability.
She has to learn his diagnosis may be the reason for his actions but yet is not an excuse for them. He has to learn that also. It may be he has to be his own best advocate to get on an effective medication regimen, or seek inpatient treatment, or find his own best team to hold him accountable to avoid situations that trigger him, even if that means choosing a life of singlehood.
And both need support groups: her for families of the mentally ill and he for his illness.
I’m not seeing major spiritual problems nor bad people. I am seeing mental illness wreaking its usual havoc on the family. It calls for effective treatment or avoidance. (By her, of him.)
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The ” good news ” is just that, good. No gobilly gook over Christian vs non Christian counselling. Scripture doesn’t tell us how to build houses, or perform surgery, fly to the moon etc. People need real answers (hope) for their given circumstances. Christ is the spiritual answer for all but that doesn’t fix a broken body, heal an abused child, fix a soldier’s PTSD, etc. I do thank God for giving people the skills to attend to our broken body, broken mind.
The good news of Christ coming to set us free from sin’s consequences, saturates our whole being, spiritual, emotional, physical.
Ricco wrote:
Here are some notes from an (out of print) book I once read on demons: 1) Jesus’ encounters with demons were directly related to his claim to be the Messiah. 2) No where in the Epistles are there commands or examples of exorcising of demons. 3) The only command given to believers for dealing with Satan is to resist the devil. 4) Christ secured complete victory at the cross over Satan and the demonic. 5) Many today have too low a view of God’s power and too high a view of Satan’s power. 6) We are told in 2 Thes 3:3 that “the Lord is faithful and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one”.
@ linda:
He could very well just be a bad charactered person.
He also *might* be bipolar. But I don’t think there is enough in their description to make it clearly sound like bipolar. Other than saying that’s what the doctor said.
So if they are really basing this off a real life case, they need to share more of his mania symptoms and depressive and possible dissociative episodes that would have warranted a doctor or psychiatrist in giving that diagnosis.
All their description gives is that he has anger and rage issues and becomes verbally and physically intimidating…which could be caused by so many different factors or disorders or clusters and so on. Bipolar or another mood disorder could be a part of it. They need to be more descriptive because the logic isn’t following or all inclusive to give someone enough information to go on.
Regardless, point being, they oversimplify behavior and oversimplify responses and treatment. So none of that nuance matters. Or how the doctor came to that diagnosis if based on a real life case. Skip over that and just call it sin, and likely put all the burden on the wife, “Emily” in that scenario.
Humans and relationships are nothing more than caricatures and short check lists of criteria in their system.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Pyramid Scheme.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-KWb6JuYp0
Amway without the soap (but keeping the SCRIPTURES).
In Campus Crusade in the Seventies this was called “multiplying ministry”. Sheep whose only purpose is to WITNESS to Save More Sheep whose only purpose is to WITNESS to Save More Sheep whose only purpose is…
It did not suprise me to learn that Bill Bright (founder of Campus Crusade) had a background in Sales and Marketing.
GreekEpigraph wrote:
i.e. A Biblical Manly Man. “WOMAN! SUBMIT!”
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
Beat them like a Biblical Manly Man until they shut up, of course.
Quiet and Polite First-Time Cheerful Obedience.
Remember Voddie Baucham, the Pearls, the Ezzos, etc?
Thersites wrote:
JUST LIKE SCIENTOLOGY!
emily honey wrote:
………… Does he have outbursts in front of coworkers, friends, and/or other family members, or only in front of his wife????
This little imaginary scenario leaves out a lot of critical info.
Through a glass darkly wrote:
But what about Tim’s Ever-filling Quiverfull of Heirs and Spares?
1. How will you decide whether to pursue Tim and Emily as believers or unbelievers? What difference will their status as Christians make in your counseling?
I would ask Tim and Emily each to describe their individual conversion experience when they were teens. I would then ask Emily to explain why she believes Tim is a Christian based on her experience living with Tim in marriage for six years. I would then ask Tim to explain why he believes Emily is a Christian based on his experience living with Emily in marriage for six years. I think the answers to those questions would provide a good basis for determining their status as Christians. If it turns out that either one or both are not Christians, then biblical counseling is inappropriate.
2. Describe, as fully as you are able, your strategy to help Tim and Emily think biblically about his diagnosis and their use of bi-polar and illness language.
The key here is the statement that Tim loses his temper when he comes home from work. I think it is possible something happens at work which results in such behavior. It could be pressure, an unreasonable supervisor, fear of losing his employment, bypassed for promotion, fear of not being a good provider, etc. Thus, Tim may not necessarily be bi-polar or have an illness. The work environment needs to be explored. Emily needs to accept that Tim may not be the rising star he thought he would be.
3. Emily is “Convinced that God is telling her to divorce Tim.” Write out your word-for-word response to Emily on this matter. In your response, be sure to address the themes of biblical decision-making and permission for divorce and remarriage.
I would ask Emily how does she know that God is telling her to divorce Tim? I would also ask her if she knows the biblical permission for divorce and remarriage? Finally, I would ask her if she sees a conflict between what she believes God is telling her and what is written in the bible.
4. What strategy would you employ to see repentance, reconciliation, and restoration happen between Tim and Emily?
Tim admits the problems are his fault, but says he just doesn’t know how to “maintain control.” The repentance, reconciliation and restoration are Tim’s problems. Tim needs training in how to handle difficult situations, such as may be the case at work, and Emily should be there to help and support Tim by listening to his work related concerns.
5. Describe a detailed plan of restoring marital communication that you would pursue with Tim and Emily.
Tim needs to open up and be willing to share with Emily the concerns he may have. Emily needs to think about what is important to her regarding communications and write those down on paper for Tim. Emily needs to realize that telling Tim, “he should cut the grass because he had not done it the week before” is not really communication; it’s an order.
Ken G wrote:
Really? It was “suggested.” Is that an order? And no matter how she said it, she has no control over how he responds. He is responsible for his response.
“Then last week Tim “went completely crazy.” Emily suggested on a Saturday morning that Tim should cut the grass because he had not done it the week before. Tim did more than scream and throw things this time. As he yelled and became more “worked up” he threw the phone at Emily. He missed her, knocking a hole in the wall, but they both knew he had crossed a line.”
Ken G wrote:
The counselor is going to decide if one or both of them are or are not Christians?
A pastor (and two other elders) who I had known for 9 years once started asking me questions about my conversion when I questioned them about something. It was really insulting. I had been a Christian for 30 years. I had served and been in that church for 17 years. If they could not tell from being around me for that amount of time that I was a Christian, they should not be leaders.
Bridget wrote:
I didn’t write that the counselor makes the decision. I wrote that Tim talks about Emily and likewise Emily talks about Tim. They decide whether they believe they are married to a Christian. If either one believes the other is not a Christian, then that issue needs to get resolved before further counseling. If they believe they are married to a Christian, then I would accept their judgment.
Bridget wrote:
It’s and order because Emily said that Tim SHOULD (emphasis on the word should) cut the grass because he had not done it the week before. Of course he is responsible for his response; he even admits that’s his problem, but the topic the counselor is being asked to address is communication. What is being communicated? Is it a desire to have the lawn look nice or is it an attempt to point out a failure? To the counselor, it seems to be the latter and not the former because Emily doesn’t mention the harm caused by not having the grass cut.
@ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
What if he is in complete control of his emotions, and is really charming and “nice” in front of everyone else. But is another way, as described, with Emily behind closed doors? What if he is merely controlling and abusive? What if he’s a sociopath?
What if Tim is secretly having an affair, and his raging outbursts are him projecting onto and gaslighting Emily?
What if Tim has a brain tumor and that’s actually the cause of his behavior change?
Did he use to be normal and kind and one way, and did his behavior suddenly take a dramatic turn?
What if Tim…etc. etc.
So many possible scenarios and reasons for what is going on!
But when violence or the threat of it is present, what’s important is that Emily is safe and gets out imediately. That is priority number one.
I also think divorce is usually (if not always) the wisest decision when chronic abuse is present in a marriage. This would automatically fail me in the biblical counseling world.
* chronic abuse of any kind. Not just physical.
Ken G wrote:
I cannot tell you how little I would care about Tims opinion of whether or not Emily is a Christian in this scenario.
Bridget wrote:
Emily needs to realize that her husband cannot be trusted and leave. Or kick him out. After getting a safety plan.
also, re the grass, in most cities you are legally required to cut it after it gets to a certain point.
@ Mary27:
Do you remember the name of the book? I would be interested in seeing if I could find it somewhere. That sounds reasonable and balanced. I wonder what they would say about when Paul casts out the demon in Acts 19. It seemed super obvious. He clearly wasn’t going out to hunt demons.
Lea wrote:
You may not care, but do you think Emily might care or Tim might care about Emily’s opinion?
Ken G wrote:
Best case scenario, he says she’s a Christian which she already knows.
Worst case, this abusive, angry man tries to tell HER that she isn’t a Christian. Which is the last thing she needs.
And none of this has done anything to solve the actual problem, which is Tim.
@ Lea:
Yes! A safety plan is important.
I realize I put get out immediately, but should nuance it that getting out “right now” without a plan might be more dangerous in some situations. As soon as she can and it is safe for her to do so.
Lea wrote:
The narrative doesn’t state what Emily does all day. Obviously, she is not taking care of any children. Does she have a job like Tim or does she stay at home? If she does not have a job, perhaps she could cut the grass. I see many women in my neighborhood behind a lawn mower!
Beakerj wrote:
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. That is exactly how those types of people think. In complementarianism, the wife is to blame even when she’s not to blame, and even then, she’s still to blame!
About the only time I’ve seen complementarians hold husbands responsible ends up re-enforcing the male hierarchy: they may tell the husband that he failed to ‘lead’ his wife enough.
But ultimately, everything with complementarians says the wife is at fault.
linda wrote:
She can remarry if she wants to and still “have scruples.”
As others have said there is not enough information to really know what is happening with Tim and Emily to be an effective counselor to them both. First and foremost any counselor working with Tim should be working hand in hand with his doctor.
Lea wrote:
The counselor would have to be the moderator in directing Tim to explain why he claims she is not a Christian while providing ample opportunity for Emily to reply. Emily may be offended by Tim’s remarks, but counseling is not necessarily a pleasant experience.
Ken G wrote:
His work is not the problem.
You’re suggesting that Tim has a right or an excuse, due to supposed job stress, to come home and take his anger out on Emily. Wrongo.
My sister who is a verbal abuser does the same thing: she verbally abused me for years and one of the justifications she offers for the verbal abuse is that she is under stress (due to her job, her boyfriend, the lousy weather, her foot hurts, whatever).
And on that basis, my codependent mother asked me for years to just excuse the rotten behavior, to feel sorry for my sister, to try to empathize with her for having a bad day.
Wrongo again. I finally figured out (and with confirmation in books by psychologists) that there is no justification for any sort of abuse.
It does not matter if Tim (or my sister) had a bad day at work. That is irrelevant.
Nobody has a right to scream and throw things at someone else because they had a bad day at their job.
Tim is choosing to handle any supposed job stress by lashing out. That is a choice he is making.
He can also choose to deal with his anger in a constructive manner that does not hurt his wife.
Ken G wrote:
Tim doesn’t care.
Emily is only under the illusion that she cares about what Tim thinks because…
She’s been programmed by a Christian community to think she has to be a good Christian girl, which means, among other things, caring about what other people think, more than caring what she thinks about herself, her marriage, or anything else.
When Emily divorces Tim (you go girl!) and has a revelation on her own (or realizes via non-quack therapy), she’ll see that….
She’s been making decisions based on what other people want her to do, or what will make other people happy, because that is what she was taught is her proper, Godly designed, Biblical Gender Role for women.
And this will make her angry to think of all the time and energy she wasted not living her life for herself but what other people told her to do and be.
@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
Telling people to quit taking prescribed medication is practicing medicine without a license. Period.
OTOH Bipolar is not an excuse for domestic violence. Believe it or not.
I wonder if these counselors understand a separation can very well save a marriage in the long run?
Ken G wrote:
Maybe Emily has grass allergies, a weak heart, or is going through chemo. Who knows what the reason is why she cannot or does not mow the lawn.
Daisy, you misunderstand what I said. I would have no problems with Emily divorcing Tim and remarrying. But it would be quite possible she would have a strong belief that would be wrong. She could still seek safety, divorce, and not remarry. It would not be the counsellors place nor anyone else’s to make that decision for her.
Going with the scenario given, I would tend to trust that Tim’s drs considered his case thoroughly before diagnosing bi polar. Arm chair shrinks not so much.
It is not uncommon for a bipolar person to find no relief with the first med regimen and many stick with ineffective treatment for years. Tim could well do what he does due to bipolar. Frankly we can all be jerks at times and my experience with bipolar people not on good treatment is that any jerk tendencies are sometimes made worse by the disease. Just as many diabetics have days of being difficult when sugar is high. Or hormonal upsets make teens downright crazy at times.
So again, assuming a proper diagnosis (would have ruled out a brain tumor, etc) Tim needs better treatment and Emily needs a safe exit plan, and counselling separately would be in order for both of them. Tim doesn’t need to be judged a bad person even though his actions cannot be tolerated. And Emily needs to know his disease does not have to control her life.
But if I knew such a couple in real life, I would also offer up lots of prayers for each of them. Life isn’t going to be easy peasy for either one.
Niteowl wrote:
I think you are 100% correct. With that, I’ll sign off and wish everyone a Merry Christmas.
After watching Leah Remini’s show on A&E about Scientology and reading this blog and learning more about New Calvinism and its offshoots like “biblical counseling,” I am constantly amazed at how similar they are in their mindset. Scientology believes that Psychiatry is evil and all the answers are located in the writings of L. Ron Hubbard and these people likewise feel that secular Psychiatry is wrong and all the answers are in the Bible. But, the true similarity is that both seem to be more about power over others and extracting as much money out of people as possible, with no real concern about truly helping people.
However, I must say that as much as I disagree with Hubbard, I respect him more than some of these “Christian” leaders because at least he created his own religion instead of trying to twist Christianity to fit his twisted ideas.
Ken G wrote:
Really? We need to tip toe around and worry about saying should vs. could? Walking around on egg shells about every bit of communication is very stressful.
It’s interesting that you are highlighting the word should and not the word suggested. How is a suggestion an order?
Ken G wrote:
I would not want to judge someone’s salvation, especially if mental illness might be involved. And we disagree about this issue needing to be resolved before further counseling.
GMFS
So, this “Tim and Emily” thing.
“Tim and Emily” are, presumably, a generic couple; even if they’re not, they’re a couple the candidate has not met. That is, to the candidate, “Tim and Emily” are total strangers. They also represent an invented, generic failed “church across town”. The questions nevertheless ask the candidate to write out the “correct” answers to very serious relationship and mental health problems affecting these total strangers.
Ironically, people within the fundagelical industrial complex normally don’t like people doing this; they call it slander or gossip and claim that it is attacking the church. Maybe that’s the test – the “correct” “biblical” answer is to write words to the effect of: I refuse to engage in speculation or gossip concerning a godly husband and his Gospel attempts to Biblically provide Biblical leadership to his wife, except insofar as they belong to another church that lacks correct doctrine.”.
So: merely by absorbing a few lines of theory and doctrine from our teaching, you will have the answers to correct all the problems suffered by individuals, and to correct the failings of these other second-rate churches. Of course, when our “solutions” don’t work, we don’t talk about it, or else we assert that no-one can expect fleshly outward evidence of the deep spiritual changes that are created by our theories.
GMFS: Part 2
More on the “Tim and Emily” thing. My answers to those “questions” would be along the following lines.
These answers are not about “Tim”, or “Emily”, or any other characters in this invented scenario. This is about you, the ACBC, and your claim to be able to accredit “counsellors”. Why do you need to invent stories, and make up evidence discrediting other believers with whose doctrine you disagree? Why do you need to discredit them at all? You must be aware of those who have been greatly helped, both by what you might term “secular” counselling. You must also be aware of those who have been powerfully impacted by manifestations of the Holy Spirit just like those that are promised in scripture. Which raises another important question: why, in the scenario you have invented, do you feel the need to plant evidence discrediting them?
Those of you who lead and speak for the ACBC, this is not about “Tim” or “Emily” or the “church across town”. This is about you, is it not? When you see people doing things you can’t do, and enjoying a walk with the Holy Spirit, promised in Scripture, that seems deeper and richer than yours, and when you see promises of Scripture fulfilled in the lives of others but not in yours, it’s very easy to become downcast – just like Cain. It’s very tempting to become angry and resentful, and blame those who have what you do not have, and lash out at them.
To the people of the ACBC, there is no reason for you to remain trapped in those patterns of thinking, but you cannot remove specks from your fellow-believers’ eyes while their are planks in your own. You cannot give to others what you refuse to receive yourself. If you were to pursue relationships with other groups of believers that currently you resent and reject, and listen with humility to their stories of God’s goodness, and their testimonies of how the Author of scripture has brought it to life among them, you would find that you have much to learn. Not only that, but you would also find the freedom to do what you long to do – in other words, share your own stories and teach your own insights. But neither of those things will happen for you unless you can let go of your own rebellion and unrepentance.
@ Daisy:
Right?
Also maybe Emily had a bad day at work. Did anybody ask her?
God save all women from counseling from people like Ken.
Lea wrote:
For sure.
Really , all this counselling consists of are Bible readings, bible memorization, shallow examinations, guilt shifting, completarian viewpoints. There are no apparent professional credentials required other passing the ,”test”….that is scary. Ken’s post exposes the endless list of biblical rules ( man-made).
If Santa set up a distribution center in Antarctica would he be diagnosed as bi-polar?
drstevej wrote:
Umm. Having a friend dealing with a grown son with severe mental illness, and seeing the heartbreak she goes through, has this joke leaving a sour taste.
Ricco wrote:
The name of the book is “Overrun by Demons” by Thomas Ice and Robert Dean. I think about Acts 19 they say the apostles were still establishing that the Jesus they were preaching was truly the Messiah.
bunny wrote:
I keep wondering when a court case will arise which revolves around exactly that (practicing medicine without a license).
I think it’s just a question of time, especially now that money is changing hands in those circles.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
In the context of God sending and giving His Holy Spirit, and then His Holy Spirit giving us spiritual gifts (Rom.12, 1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4), one wonders what the refusers are up to when they are in position in the church.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Are the Biblical Counselors advising the pastors who have marriages in trouble? (a number of them mentioned on this blog)
Or this situation?
“A 29-year-old North Carolina woman whose newlywed husband told 911 he believed he killed her after overdosing on cold medicine was found to have been stabbed and slashed 123 times, officials said.”
bunny wrote:
No disagreement here. I wrote my remarks off the cuff. Based on further thought, I’d tell Emily to get out of the house and get somewhere safe. But I’m afraid these ACBC types would think Emily needs to stay in the home and put up with a season of abuse, even when it’s already crossed over the line into the crime of domestic abuse.
The whole thing is disgusting. There’s so much wrong here and this “Biblical counseling” is NOT GOING TO HELP.
One thing that might be helpful in the counseling process would be to assist Emily to establish boundaries which she can enforce (regardless of the path forward). These can be along the “if then else” line of thought.
For instance, “If Tim throws an item at me I will notify the police and leave the premises until safety can be contracted.” Just what “leave the premises” means is something she needs to work out. Perhaps she stays at her parents. Perhaps she checks into a hotel or stays with a friend…for an undetermined amount of time. Maybe this move is what Tim needs to get it into his skull that throwing items at his wife is not acceptable behavior and will not be tolerated. And…that she will not be back home until such activity ceases.
Similar boundaries can be erected around other unacceptable behaviors. “If Tim yells and overturns furniture out of anger – for any reason, provoked or otherwise – I will notify the police and leave the premises.” And further, “I will not tolerate these incidents, meaning, if even one such incident happens, I will move out.”
So, as counselor – the establishing of boundaries paints the way toward Emily’s stated pathway of divorce…or considered reconciliation. If toward reconciliation, these same boundaries guide the way. “Tim must be properly managed and compliant on medications with improved behavioral outcomes – particularly, no outward exhibited risk or escalation of physical violence – else I will not consider moving back into the same residence. And this must be sustained over a year to show proof of management and recovery.”
This is just one example but the counselor can guide Emily to set up several such boundaries for herself and toward Tim that will assist in the decision making process: either toward permanent separation or toward reconciliation.
Although, I doubt highly that my answer would “pass” their test. In real life; however, it was how I passed my own test and it worked quite well to establish proof of repentance.
Merry Christmas everyone! Hope you all are enjoying some well deserved rest with your families!
Really interesting discussion here. I agree with the other commentators that there’s been too much emphasis in the church on looking for demons and not enough emphasis on personal responsibility. I believe that there’s a reason Jesus focused on personal responsibility when He taught on this topic.
(Luke 11:24-26)
While we are on the subject of demons, I was just reading the book Tramp for the Lord by Corrie Ten Boom. Totally surprised that she got on the topic of demons as well. Wasn’t expecting that at all.
Many of you know the story of how Corrie Ten Boom’s family hid people in their home until they were betrayed and caught during the darkest days of World War II. In the book, Corrie writes about how her worst fear was being sent to a German concentration camp. As long as she was in prison in Holland she felt safe. But then the day came that her and her sister were loaded onto a train and shipped right where she had heard so many horrific stories about.
There’s a really powerful part of the book where she describes what it was like to lead Biblestudies in that camp. She describes how one night they were in the barracks and she was ministering to the ladies when one of the worst guards starts coming their direction.
The other ladies are trying to signal Corrie to hide the Bible that they had so carefully smuggled into the camp. Yet she continues on—teaching from the Bible and deciding to lead the group in a song. The female guard stops and listens. Then to their surprise, the guard asks them for another song. The guard says she likes the songs. As Corrie describes, “In a crude sort of way, she became a friend.”
Corrie describes the suffering they endured. Having to stand for hours in the freezing cold at the crack of dawn while the roll was taken. Yet she also talked about how all that suffering “was worthwhile” because that was the only way she was able to lead many of the other ladies to Christ before they died.
In the book—Corrie writes about what it was like to look at the crematoriums everyday and wonder if you were going to live or die. Yet in the middle of that darkness, the Holy Spirit starts talking to her and her sister about what to do after the war. Betsie tells Corrie, “God showed me that after the war we must give to the Germans that which they now try to take away from us—our love for Jesus.”
As the book continues, Corrie describes the miracle of how she is suddenly released from the camp. No explanation whatsoever. So after the war, she goes out to help heal the deep wounds.
Then she describes how traveling in Germany after the war—she dealt with demons. There’s a story about her going behind the Iron Curtain. Many of you know how she traveled with Brother Andrew who once described that it was easier to go behind the Iron Curtain with a Dutch passport than if he had had an American one. Corrie’s Dutch passport probably helped her travels as well.
Corrie describes speaking at this church behind the Iron Curtain. While she’s ministering, she notices that the congregation is not hearing anything she’s saying. She can feel heavy spiritual resistance. She feels led by the Holy Spirit to rebuke the demonic principalities that are trying to close eyes and ears. (see 2Cor 4:4)
Afterward the other pastors have this big theological debate over whether demons exist. Finally the pastor says “God has this evening given Corrie the grace to take the authority of Jesus and in His name cast out devils. We should be thankful instead of all this arguing.”
Anyway, that was a great book if anyone is looking for something uplighting to read during their holiday vacation.
We need to be careful not to add anything to what the Bible teaches us about demons. There’s Christian books and manuals that claim to describe all kinds of demonic powers. But how much of that is pure speculation?
Also, the church as a whole needs to deal with the false doctrine that labels every strong woman as a “Jezebel.” Nope. Not at all. God wants strong women. Reading that book, helped me understand more about what it means to be a strong woman of God. How to resist the kind of very intense evil that Corrie faced. Anyway, all I’m saying is let’s find the balance between understand the existence of demons while still keeping our focus on Christ as we run this race with patience.
Ricco wrote:
Comedian Flip Wilson answered this question 30 years ago: The Devil made me do it.
Thersites wrote:
Oh, this is so true. Seen it many times.
It’s scary that people who passed this silly test would be counseling real people with real problems.
Totally off topic, and yet, relates to the NeoPuritan view of women.
Some one please take a peek inside the new Spurgeon Study Bible, specifically the notes on the rape of Dinah in Genesis. It sounds to me like those notes blame Dinah–had she just stayed home and not gone to the dude’s house he wouldn’t have had the chance to rape her is the gist of it IF I read it correctly. Never mind the Scripture says she went to visit the young women of the land.
Ya’ll check it out and let me know if I am misreading it or if this sort of drivel is now passing muster over at Holman. And is it still the publishing wing of the SBC.
I hope I am misinterpreting the notes. Otherwise it is egregious victim blaming. I cannot imagine what it would do to a woman who has suffered violent assault to read it.
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
Ain’t that the absolute truth….
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Oh, Nick – THIS! Thank you for this.
The Father sent the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit to be with us and in us and for us as one of us. He made it possible for us to be free and have life abundantly, walking in His hope, His love, His joy, His peace. What an indescribable and priceless gift we remember and celebrate this night.
Merry Christmas, everyone.
@ linda:
Linda iirc that is the gothard version of that story! What a mess.
Side note, merry Christmas all!
Merry Christmas to the best comment section on the internet!!
@ Mae:
True.
Moreover, is this the same group that has philandering leaders and wayward youth counselors going after their young charges? If so, maybe they should fix themselves, their leaders, first.
After all, what is their track record?
There’s no way an unregenerate reprobate like Potter could ever become a certified Biblical counselor.
Muff Potter wrote:
Merry Christmas from an unregenerate gadfly who doesn’t want to be certified by some gratuitous organization.
Merry Christmas to all!
Merry, Merry Christmas from an ornery ole country girl!!
My pretty, 13 year-old niece gave me a Christmas gift this year, for the very first time.
She gave me a coffee cup. On both sides of the cup there is a picture of a dog and a firearm, and it says,
“Never mind the dogs. Beware of owner!”
I told my niece that I would give back all of my other gifts just to keep the cup!
If I ever meet with a “biblical” counselor, I’m taking that cup with me!
Tee Hee!
Jenny wrote:
It doesn’t sound all that different from TVC’s desire to “push” a woman who was divorcing her pedophile husband under their care.
Daisy wrote:
You stated that very well. There is no way to live up to what other people think you should be. Or to live in the box they think you should be in. Trying to do so can put you in a really bad spot. My wife spent 3 years in the pit of anxiety due that effort. 6 years later she is still trying to find her identity. We were influenced by the patriarchal pastor and his what seemed to be repressed wife that married us, plus a Sunday school class shortly after we were married that ran down women.
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
I think Ken might possibly pass the test with the answers he gave.
I also have to say that I found his answers very troubling, even though I had the impression he was sincere in his efforts and believed his answers to be reasonable, loving, and effective. (None of which, IMO, is actually true, sorry to say.)
Real life only works this way in a complementarian’s dream world, not in real life, in my experience.
Ricco wrote:
I’m afraid you left out the most important part — gauging ability to pay and for how long. Don’t forget the specification in their guidelines that this valuable service calls remuneration. Priroties, my good human.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
The words of Matthew 23 come to mind in relation to these “biblical” counsellors.
JDV wrote:
Ah, must put a monetary value on holiness and salvation!
Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!
PASTOR HAS TO KEEP UP WITH THE FURTICKS!
Refugee wrote:
Ideology must always trump Reality, Comrades.
Hypothetically speaking, let’s say someone was submerged in water for a period of time which led to effects on the brain. Conceivably, his future actions could then be affected by this, to a varying degree. Those who knew of the precipitating cause would reference it continually per its effect on future actions. (Another example would be the concussion matter in the NFL — and the other football as well, though the press seems slower on the uptake for now).
So here’s Tim. Violent outbursts, throwing things, demonstrating himself being a danger to others. Going back to the worldview as it were of this counseling collective, “Because the central elements of counseling include God, the nature of the human problem, and God’s solution in Christ, the counseling methods of secular people are ultimately at odds with a uniquely biblical approach to counseling.”
Said methods of “secular people” include involving physical and physiological factors in diagnoses designed to complete the counseling picture. And as many people have pointed out in this series, not just “secular people” but Christian psychologists, psychiatrists, and other health professionals do this as well, notwithstanding the apparent strawman created which offers only an either/or perspective, one having to necessarily be at odds with the other.
Once again, we see an emergence of an authority priority, one that puts that authority in the hands of a few, and excising what is known and observable to the opinions of those ceding to themselves spiritual authority. They’re working the same side of the street as Mary Baker Eddy, who they’d almost certainly view as having an unbiblical worldview. References to the cult aspects of this appear don’t appear to be at odds with reality.
For Q3: I would explain to Emily that abandonment is acceptable grounds for divorce and that abuse would certainly fit within that realm. I would be honest that others would disagree in the letter of the law but that it would be very inconsistent with the whole of God’s message for Him to expect her to remain a captive in an abusive situation. (This is consistent with what we taught our daughter in her teenage years before she met and married a wonderful husband where we would never expect such a conversation to need to occur.)
Considering Tim’s escalating tendencies (most people at least mature some over 6 years), I would strongly suggest to Emily that she take every conceivable precaution against getting pregnant with the current state of their marriage [snark alert: the wording was intentional].
Sorry for coming late to the conversation.
Ricco wrote:
No, sorry. Way too much logic and common sense is present in these answers. Therefore, you fail this first time. Go back to your grader and he will give you the answers you need to write down.
I will review your answers this Friday in another post on biblical counseling.
dee wrote:
If you are grading on a curve, I’m in BIG trouble. So many great responses.
If I learned anything in college, it’s that the secret to passing tests is to tell the instructor what they want to hear. So, let’s try a short version of the test.
1. How will you decide whether to pursue Tim and Emily as believers or unbelievers? What difference will their status as Christians make in your counseling?
All I can do is examine their fruit. Emily is rebellious, and Tim has anger issues, so they are both maybes. If they aren’t really saved, we have to fix that first. Lost people have no hope. It would help if I knew whether either of them have tatoos.
2. Describe, as fully as you are able, your strategy to help Tim and Emily think biblically about his diagnosis and their use of bi-polar and illness language.
I’m going to have to use Bible verses to convince them that Tim has a sin problem only. No bi-polar nonsense.
3. Emily is “Convinced that God is telling her to divorce Tim.” Write out your word-for-word response to Emily on this matter. In your response, be sure to address the themes of biblical decision-making and permission for divorce and remarriage.
Emily, when God finished the Canon, He stopped talking. He isn’t telling you anything, although He will “Lead” important people in a vague sort of way, especially if it involves a pastor moving to a bigger church with a better salary. But you are a peon, so all you get is a bunch of verses that say you can’t divorce. Ever. Unless he has an affair, and even that’s a maybe.
4. What strategy would you employ to see repentance, reconciliation, and restoration happen between Tim and Emily?
They must agree with all of my verses, hopefully memorizing some, and build their marriage on the word of god. Or at least on my interpretation of it. And that means that Tim is the boss, and Emily must obey him. And Emily can’t tell him what to do, no matter how tall the grass gets. She could mow the grass herself, if Tim allows it, and she asks submissively. The grass was the symptom… The real problem was submission to God’s order of marriage.
5. Describe a detailed plan of restoring marital communication that you would pursue with Tim and Emily.
They have to get their marriage in order, and then communication will flow. Tim must lead, Emily must follow. And they need to have kids, several in fact, to ease the strain on their marriage. Because not having kids is ignoring God’s command to be fruitful, and several small helpless screaming depraved little sinners will do so much to relieve stress. [Just ask Paul Washer.] Tim and Emily are selfish, and getting into god’s order [according to his word] will fix everything.
—————————————- End of Test
Both the secular frame and biblical framework in counseling are sorely lacking something of the involvement in practicality and understanding nature of the Holy Spirit. The husband is NOT tuned into the Holy Spirit and pharmacology is not the key him transforming. Most pharmacology is used as a way to cope or smooth out some matters not cure the soul. Likewise, patriarchal submission is not either. There is one key verse that would help that is if he doesn’t understand his wife as co-heir of God’s grace, God will not meet him in what he really needs.
Bridget wrote:
Am I not a true Christian, because I never had a conversion experience? I was raised in a Christian home, spent my childhood in Church, and read the Bible. Later, starting in Middle School, I was the Assistant Music Director. I never needed to be “converted,” because I have always believed, and did not need a road to Damascus type conversion. To me, being a Christian is just a natural part of who I am, just like having brown hair and being male. Every Christian is not a convert and does not have a dramatic story of being saved, but it doesn’t make us any less devout.
I know that many Completmentarians would not agree with this quote, since it comes from a female ruler, but whenever people start discussing if others are true Christians or not, I am always reminded of the famous, and wise, quote from Queen Elizabeth I, “I have no desire to make windows into men’s souls.”
@ GSD [Getting Stuff Done]:
You’ve grasped the nail firmly between the eyes there, GSD; I think you’ve done a sterling job of telling the “examiners” everything they want to hear, too.
If I might gild the lily, I suggest a slight extension to your answer regarding whether the fictitious Tim and Emily are actually “Christians™. It would indeed help to know whether they had tattoos, but whereas if “Emily” has tattoos it proves she is not a Christian™ (1 Pet 3:3 *), it’s different for “Tim”. If he has worldly tattoos he is not a Christian™, but if he has biblescribsher tattoos then he is.
*Of course I had to look up the exact chapter/verse reference, although the content of the verse will be familiar to many/most Wartburgers.
Jarrett Edwards wrote:
The quote about the “Tim and Emily thing” was actually mine. I’ll return to it in a separate comment because I think it’s pertinent.
Anyway, back to your comment, I must say I’m with you on this; I can’t remember a time when I’ve never had a conversion experience that would sell books either. I know you didn’t put it in those words, but the dramatic “conversion” stories do seem to sell books, don’t they?
I’ve mentioned this before, but I attended a wee conference once in which the speaker described exactly this – i.e., where somebody’s conversion experience sits on various spectra – dramatic/low-key, sudden/gradual, out of the blue while they were in prison or in an everyday prayer meeting, and several others. He observed that in each case it is the former kind that sells books and fills conferences, but the latter kind is much more common.
So, this “Tim and Emily” thing.
There’s been a lot of to-and-fro argument on this thread about what “Tim” thinks and what “Emily” thinks and, if I may be blunt, some unwarranted personal accusations between Wartburgers.
I know that there are people (men and women, although the character of “Tim” is male) with explosive tempers. I know there are people with bipolar disorder, and that explosive anger can be a symptom of bipolar disorder – and therefore treatable with medication – as well as a habit learned by over-indulging one’s emotions over many years.
Nevertheless, “Tim” and “Emily” are fake. They’re a made-up, generic couple created according to specific stereotypes to reinforce the simplistic thinking the ACBC wants to encourage. For that matter, in the scenario presented, even “you” are fake. “You” have a track-record in helping people through your wise “biblical counselling” such that they are now referring others to you. These “others” are those who have been let down by “false” diagnoses and ineffective medication supplied by secular counsellors. Sometimes they’ve been referred to these false authorities by fake “pastors” from fake “other churches”.
The whole scenario, in other words, is rife with deceit, misdirection and trickery. The tricks it contains are common enough – they’re all over the internet, for instance – and whether the author(s) was/were thinking tactically or just copying from elsewhere, I don’t know. But with that caveat, the scenario is designed to trip you up into thinking a certain way. Wartburgers (and similar) are often criticised as speaking without all the facts, but in this case, there are no facts.
We can’t tell what “Tim” or “Emily” thinks, and I don’t believe the case sheds a lot of light on either bipolar disorder or domestic abuse. It is, rather, a testimony from ACBC, and they are the only people it sheds light on.
It’s a trick question. Your instinct is to see Tim as the problem, but Emily is obviously being willfully disobedient to her husband’s biblical headship. She probably has a demon. Tim should beat her.
Can I have my certificate now?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
True, I was perhaps rude to Ken in response to his well meaning answers, and I apologize.
It is no excuse, but I underwent counseling with a well meaning pastor whose approach was very similar (and this in real life, not a simulation), and though his words seemed reasonable and loving, ultimately they were not helpful, as the solution involved the husband “leading better”, the wife “submitting better”, and the children “obeying better”. In other words, just do more of what we had been trying to do, only try harder.
I wish that these kind, gentle, and loving complementarians could see that while it may work in their families (and how I still grieve over our “failure” and wonder why it seems to work in those other, apparently happy and loving families), one size does not fit all.
Or maybe it only works for true christans, and we are just fooling ourselves that we are among those loved by God.
Refugee,
It’s not your fault that it didn’t work.
It doesn’t work because at the root, they are trying to turn your marriage into a parent/child relationship.
As famous evangelist John Rice (who pioneered the fundamentalist movement) once said,
“The rebellion of a wife against her husband is exactly the same in spirit as the rebellion of a disobedient child against his father.”
(The Home p. 109)
For those who are wondering who John Rice was:
He is the father of Elizabeth Rice Hanford who wrote
Me? Obey Him?
That’s the book that Elizabeth Elliott loved to recommend on her radio program and newsletter.
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Refugee wrote:
Or, perhaps it’s not working for the “true” Christians. They could just be faking it, putting up a facade, the women wearing their plastic smiley faces ……….
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Yes indeed!
The whole thing isn’t real – not in just the sense that it is a hypothetical test question – but it isn’t actually “real” in every other sense you mention. It’s a holisitically false reality, based on micro-false realities and assumptions.
“Is this even real? Why or why not?” -> Something I’ve learned to immediately ask myself, especially when dealing with theology.
What’a ironic is that in these kind of systems, there isn’t an actualized moral structure and way of encountering reality that is consistent, objectifiably and subjectively discernible, incarnational, peer-reviewed, and transcendent.
So while claiming ultimate right and wrongs, much of what is presented is actually theologically contradictory and not a morally consistent paradigm, which leads to confusing and opressive ethics and practices. Which is a vicious system, not a virtuous one.
That viciousness underlying the system can explain why this kind of counseling often leaves people feeling so cold, oppressed, misunderstood, confused, worse off, burdened, etc. The practices end up being diverting – sleight of hand, bait and switch, manipulative.
All side effects of viciousness, not something operating in virtue, or producing fruits of the Spirit.
All while they are claiming “good!” And “right” and forcing the idea that “this will produce the right kind of fruit!”
If it’s not producing healing and fruits of the Spirit (the fruit that God counts), bringing about virtue for people, is there something not *real* there? And where is it, how deep does it go, is the whole thing not real?
Avid Reader wrote:
Because on Raxacoricofundamentalistorius, ‘woman’ and ‘child’ are one category.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That’s very correct, Nick. The content and context of the tats is critical. In old-school evangelicalism, any sort of tat was verboten. Today, older tats can show that “you have a history,” and newer scribsher tats can be very hip and trendy in many circles.
But I was thinking that the people who wrote the test would be very old-school, and would look down on any sort of tatoo, and thus it was an attempt to gain their favor by playing to their prejudices. It’s all about passing the test by telling them what they want to hear, and brown-nosing is allowed. [Which is how I got my degree.]
Refugee wrote:
Refugee, firstly, I realise the above is a very small snippet from your comment, and it may not be the one you would have picked as a representative sample. But I hear you on this.
One of the great weaknesses of western and (it has to be said) protestant christendom is the splitting of the church into small monocultures. It means we never have to grasp the nettle of learning to love, respect and get on with believers who are very different. This goes far deeper than “agreeing to differ”. I’d be very surprised if you were hamstring by a fundamental “failure” on your part; it took me 30 years to become convinced that the blank I drew with charismatic christianity wasn’t a “failure” on mine. I am convinced, though, that splintered denominational christendom doesn’t work. Like the broken clock that’s right twice a day, any church sub-set will work for a sub-set of people; but it can’t work for everyone and it doesn’t know how to.
As you graciously pointed out, people in these settings generally mean well. I remain convinced that the Kingdom works, but it’s a steep road through a narrow gate to find it. At least, someone once said that, and I’m very much afraid He knew His stuff. May we each find joy in our journeys…
Jenny wrote:
One word.
Clom.
@ Refugee:
Great comment. Blessings to you, and thanks for having the courage to share.
I learned from Tired of Trying to Measure Up by Jeff VanVonderen that any tree that grows out of the soil of shame will wither and get tired eventually. It doesn’t matter if it is addiction or Sunday School teaching.
I completely identify with the feeling of maybe it works for others, but it doesn’t work for me. Those others could be faking it, or they could have never faced a challenge like some of us have. I’m trying to learn to be glad for the new faith I have while still grieving the hurts that it has grown out of. It’s a really hard process and I have a really long way to go, but I think it’s worth it.
I am tattoo-free…..
drstevej wrote:
Many years ago I chose to declare my individuality by not getting a tattoo. I continue to rebel against the system by remaining tattoo-free. Kind of like the famous Monty Python quote concerning individuals – “I’m not.”
Jenny wrote:
Untermensch.
Jarrett Edwards wrote:
In some circles, you must be able to remember your conversion experience for it to be valid. And it’s a big plus to have lurid stories of your pre-conversion hijinks, especially if they involve sex, drugs, and/or rock ‘n’ roll.
It’s a bit like asking a person whether they recall being born at the hospital, and accusing them of not being alive when they admit to having no memory of the event.
I think your story is the way things are supposed to work. It reminds me of NT Wright’s background.
Jarrett Edwards wrote:
Let’s suppose a child was brought up in a home where the parents owned a restaurant. Through out their young life they spent time in the restaurant and kitchen, read the recipe books, memorized some of the recipes, believed the food was the best, and even helped out in the kitchen with some tasks such as folding napkins, stacking plates, etc. As the child grew into a young adult the restaurant was just a natural part of who he is. But can this young adult now claim they are a cook? Until the young adult steps behind a stove and actually prepares a meal the answer is, no.
In the Christian world let’s substitute church for restaurant, bible for recipe book, church activities for helping in the kitchen, etc. Can a young adult claim they are a Christian because they were raised in such a Christian environment? Until the young adult actually makes a decision about Jesus the answer is, no.
Ken G wrote:
Are you saying that beliving, but without being able to pin a date on it, is the same thing as being a non-believer?
Ken G wrote:
Isn’t worshipping, giving, serving, honoring, praying, etc., to God a decision even if there is not an aha! moment or day?
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
What I’m saying we can speculate all we want about religion and theology, study the bible all our life, sing hymns and serve in our church, give our money, time and effort to worthwhile causes and develop fine ideas about Jesus without answering the basic question: “Who do you say I am?” The comment I responded to was heavy in the accoutrements of religious / Christian experience and light, only one word “believe” with no explanation of what is believed. The emphasis should be on what is believed about Jesus and an individual can then determine for him or herself whether they are a true Christian.
@ Bridget:
See my response to Ken F.
@ Ken G:
Thanks for the reply. I’ve known people who have said if you cannot remember the moment of your conversion then you are not a believer. I don’t believe this is true for all people. Knowing Jesus is more important than knowing the time and date.
2. Describe, as fully as you are able, your strategy to help Tim and Emily think biblically about his diagnosis and their use of bi-polar and illness language.
I think it is important to impress upon Tim the gravity of this diagnosis: if it is indeed the case that he is bipolar, he will likely have to take his medication–very diligently–for the rest of his life. This is a lot like being a Type 1 diabetic: if you take the meds, you have a good, fighting chance. If you don’t take your meds, you are risking disaster.
Sure, Tim may be discouraged by the diagnosis; who wouldn’t be? BPD is serious business.
Given that he is within inches of getting a domestic violence conviction, he’d better get serious about getting to the bottom of why he is responding disproportionately to Emily. Is this due to the BPD and his meds being out of whack? Is this due to sin? Has sin exacerbated his BPD? Any of those are possible; the cynic in me says he’s got BPD which is being exacerbated by his sins, Even so, Tim MUST get a grip on defusing whatever is driving his outbursts.
Does this mean that Emily doesn’t have any faults? Of course not. She’s all over the map. But her issues aren’t the most imminent threat; Tim’s issues are.
Once Tim gets his meds straightened out and gets vigilant about staying on-target with those meds, that will get him to the point where BC will help.
The other caveat: it might not be a bad idea to get a professional therapist in on this case.
This does not take the BC out of the mix; far from it. But there may be some issues that require a licensed therapist to address.
In this case, things have snowballed pretty badly, and an “all hands on deck” approach might not be a bad idea.
I recently acquired a replacement copy of George Mackay’s 1841 book Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.
Regarding Biblical Counseling(TM) and Demons(TM), the chapter on “The Witch Mania” and some of “The Alchymists” show how far accreted superstition and detailed theological speculation can go, especially when wedded to Power over the laity.
Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:
Evangelicals are already known for tunnel-visioning on Decision for Christ; it’s part of a Gospel of Personal Salvation and Only Personal Salvation plus the Altar Call/Sinner’s Prayer cultural conversion mania. And that tunnel-vision focus has its own Dark Side, from Testimony Inflation to ignoring/denouncing those who did NOT have a spectacular Damascus Road experience.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Eeeexxactly.
I think I could probably pass this, but I would be going against all my personal experience, my conscience and my knowledge of Scripture.
In reality, I would be encouraging Emily to leave for her own safety.
I would tell Emily that God is saddened by her oppression, and I would remind her that He came for us to have life to the full, and to set the captives free, not condemn them to a potentially life-threatening situation.
I would be encouraging Tim to seek professional psychiatric help to manage his condition, and I would be telling him that it will probably take years to find the right balance.
I would be telling Tim that if he really loves Emily, he will not want to harm her, and he will want her to be safe. Even if that means removing himself from her life. I would talk to them both about what real repentance looks like, so that Emily will hopefully not be suckered in by worldly sorrow from Tim, and end up getting injured or even killed when he loses control again.
I would encourage them to seek separate counselling, absolutely not couples counselling.
I would let them know that if they want to seek reconciliation, it can be done from a distance initially. Emily must feel safe and must feel she can trust Tim before they even try to move forward with their marriage. If she doesn’t feel that’s possible within a reasonable amount of time, then she can leave permanently. His problems shouldn’t mean she is left hanging forever.