Al Mohler and Joe Carter Are Just Virtue Signaling When it Comes to Harvey Weinstein and Roy Moore

“I hope I shall possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of all titles, the character of an honest man.” George Washington link

When partiality blurs our ability to do the right thing

All of us want to come to the defense of those who we consider friends. We also want to give our particular friends or colleagues the benefit of the doubt because we believe that they are *really good guys.* Sadly, when our partisanship allow us to defend the indefensible, it can cause harm to the church.

There are many reasons for our inability to identify our biases towards others.

  • We really like them.
  • They compliment us and talk about us positively to others we admire.
  • We get something out of the friendship like notoriety, access to other celebrities, access to money making ventures, access to better jobs, etc.
  • They have given us money and resources to help our ministry.
  • If we admit that we were wrong, we will look stupid.
  • They believe exactly what we believe and help us to stand against all of the *others* out there who do not.
  • We say we believe in sin but really do not believe our friends can be guilty of serious sin.

All of this is understandable until we find out that our best buddy has been accused of doing some really, really bad like children abuse, covering up child sex abuse in the church, having multiple affairs, etc. It is one’s response to revelations like these that really distinguishes the depth of one’s character.

The child sex abuse scandal at Sovereign Grace Ministries,their leader, CJ Mahaney and their friends that stood by them at The Gospel Coalition.

If you are not aware of this story, the news media called this the greatest evangelical child sex abuse scandal in the US. You can read about this at the Washingtonian: The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch: Inside the rise and fall of Sovereign Grace Ministries. It is absolutely vital to understand that the lawsuit was not thrown out of court based on meritless allegations. It was thrown out of court due to the statute of limitations. Many states are in the process (or have already completed the process) of extending the statute of limitations based on the understanding that many children do not report their abuse until they become adults.

Sadly, many members of The Gospel Coalition and other groups like 9 Marks have come to the defense of the man who presided over this disaster, CJ Mahaney. This post will focus on a few of them who now seem to be terribly concerned about sex abuse.

My hope was that things might be changing with Tim Challies.

Tim Challies was (and maybe still is) a big supporter of CJ Mahaney. You can read one of his posts on the matter at Thinking Biblically About C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries. Challies gave one the funniest excuses ever for not talking about the Mahaney situation. It wouldn’t be good time management! I guess learning about children being sexually abused is just too time consuming…

For this reason I have deliberately avoided learning too much. I have had to question my motives, especially since I have repeatedly been on the receiving end of scathing criticism for not using my platform to speak out against Mahaney. I have chosen to read the news stories, to understand the basic facts, but conscience compels me to stop there. To do more may not be spiritually beneficial, it may not reflect good time management, and it may not be loving toward those who are involved.

Recently, perhaps discovering some margin in his schedule, Challies interviewed Boz Tchividjian on Protecting Children From Abuse: An Interview.

This was an important meeting since Challies is no doubt aware that Boz Tchividjian was critical of how the Sovereign Grace scandal was handled. When I read this, I wondered if Challies was having a change of heart.

or…

Are the friends of CJ Mahaney being forced into saying something, anything, whatever, against child sex abuse because their simplistic statements of being *against child sex abuse* were rather thin on action; especially when they post such drivel as this: The Gospel Coalition Seems to Believe That It Is Hospitable to Share Your Home and Kids With a Dangerous Criminal?

Joe Carter believes the victims of Judge Roy Moore and Harvey Weinstein.

When I saw this tweet by Joe Carter today, I almost choked on my breakfast roll.

Just a few weeks before this, he posted the following at The Gospel Coalition (he is an editor): 4 Lessons for Christians from the Harvey Weinstein Scandal

Why do I find his posts startling? Joe Carter went after me on Twitter when I said I believed the victims of the Sovereign Grace Scandal. The Christian Post posted The Gospel Coalition, Christian Bloggers Spar Over Sovereign Grace Ministry, C.J. Mahaney on Twitter

In this exchange, Carter accused Zach Hoag of exploiting a tragedy (SGM) for publicity.

First, he accused Zach Hoag of exploiting this tragedy for publicity. Somehow, though, Carter is not guilty of exploiting this current tragedy for publicity? Go figure.

“Now how about we all agree to stop exploiting this tragedy for publicity. Sound good?” wrote Carter in response to Hoag’s question if he would be willing to “put your affiliations and cash flow aside to root out/denounce any coverup among your friends & colleagues?”

Carter said that I shouldn’t say anything about SGM/Mahaney that hadn’t been proven in court. However, he did the same thing today regarding Roy Moore’s victims.

Besides calling Julie Anne Smith of Spiritual Sounding Board  and me “pathologically dishonest” (he must have taken one of those weekend “how to be a counselor” course from the nouthetic crowd), here is what else he said about me.

Hoag was not the only individual with whom Carter clashed. Dee Parsons, who runs the watchdog blog Warburg Watch, which monitors “church conflict, spiritual abuse, and hyper-authoritarian polity,” also sparred with him, seemingly from his conclusions that she had assumed Mahaney had participated in the SGM’s sexual abuse cover-up, without those allegations being proven in court.

Yet, that is exactly what he did in his tweet today.(Posted above.) He said he believed the victims of Roy Moore but that has yet to be proven in court.

He then accused me of slander for believing the victims.

So, using his definition, isn’t he now guilty of slander?

After Parsons asked him to clarify what “slander” he was referring to, Carter responded “Have you not intimated that CJM was involved in a coverup of sexual abuse?” linking to a recent post on her site where a guest blogger claimed that Mahaney was guilty.

I attempted to school him on the legal definition of slander. So he then called me a gossip.

Using his definition, isn’t he now guilty of gossip?

Parsons defended herself, claiming that “everyone has a right to express their point of view. Also, I tend to believe the victims.”

“Slander/defamation is well defined as deliberately telling a lie in order to hurt another. I have never knowingly told a lie at TWW & have never said anything to deliberately hurt another. When I have been confronted with an obvious mistake, I have apologized and corrected it,” continued Parsons on Twitter.

Carter challenged Parsons, arguing that by publishing posts which argued that the civil lawsuit was true, she was still defaming Mahaney and other SGM leaders’ reputations.

“So accusing someone of covering up pedophilia does not hurt their reputation?” he asked. “So how is ‘I believe it, I can publicly repeat it’ not gossip? Is that the Christians standard now?”

Why is it gospelly for Carter to believe the victims and not gospelly for me to believe the victims?

I have come to the conclusion that, if a person is in Joe Carter’s inner circle and has contributed much to TGC and individuals, he is off limits. Obviously Roy Moore has not been initiated into the inner sanctum of TGC so he is out. Also, Harvey is a great target. He isn’t even a Christian.

Here are a few nuggets from Carter’s post on Harvey Weinstein.

According to Carter, Christians should not turn a blind eye to accusations of sexual abuse. I would imagine that TGC and their BFFs have had plenty of practice in this area.

Huh?

Would you be willing to turn a blind eye to accusations of sexual assault and abuse if it might benefit you in some way, either directly or indirectly?

Of course not. Unlike the denizens of Hollywood, we Christians have stringent moral standards. As servants of Christ we recognize it is our duty to protect the powerless and vulnerable from harm.

to call on all Christians to recommit to our values by refusing to support abusers in the future. It doesn’t take much courage; all it takes is for us to stop rationalizing our decision to ignore abuse, even when doing so benefits us either individually or collectively.

Too close to home, perhaps?

I don’t say that because I believe I’m a moral exemplar or because I’m particularly courageous. I’m neither. I say that because I’m the adopted child of a holy God. I say that because I can’t imagine standing before my King and Father and saying, “Sure, maybe I should have spoke up for those women, but you don’t understand, it was a really, really good job . . .”

Uh oh!

No one should blame the victims who refused to confront him directly. Having already been victimized by the man they were under no obligation to risk suffering more abuse from him. But the people not directly victimized, who knew about the abuse and still did nothing, are all, in one way or another, morally culpable.

T4G 2016/2018?

WE ARE OFTEN TOO QUICK TO RESTORE FAME AND POWER.

This is also the thinking of many Christians, especially celebrity pastors, who have abused the trust of the public and their congregations. Many of us were shocked when televangelist Jim Bakker, who served an eight-year prison term for fraud, returned to a broadcasting ministry nine years after getting out of jail. Today, we’re surprised if a scandalized pastor waits nine months before he returns to the pulpit and the spotlight.

Al Mohler did the same thing Joe Carter did by condemning *virtue signaling* in Hollywood.

TWW demonstrated a few years back that CJ Mahaney gave in excess of $200,000 to Al Molher’s Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. We wrote abut this in $$$ THE MAHANEY MONEY MACHINE $$$.

Mohler has been a ardent supported of Mahaney, even making a despicable joke about all the articles written about Mahaney on the internet. You can read about this at Al Mohler Extolls CJ Mahaney at T4G While Joking at the Expense of SGM Victims. Does Money Play a Role in the Relationship? 

Mohler has pushed Mahaney at conferences, especially T4G 2016 and now at T4G 2018. To this watcher, it appears that $200,000 can buy you undying support.

One would think Mohler would be more careful about taking on the current rash of sex abuse allegations in the news given his own background. He could not help himself. The Harvey Weinstein thing was just too juicy. Go to his Briefing 10/16/17 and click on the third item Hollywood expels one of its own leading figures for the very misbehavior it sells in movies to listen.

He discussed the following situation. Harvey Weinstein Expelled From The Academy Of Motion Pictures Arts And Sciences. Here is the statement issued by the Academy.

“The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences Board of Governors met today to discuss the allegations against Harvey Weinstein, and has voted well in excess of the required two-thirds majority to immediately expel him from the Academy. We do so not simply to separate ourselves from someone who does not merit the respect of his colleagues but also to send a message that the era of willful ignorance and shameful complicity in sexually predatory behavior and workplace harassment in our industry is over. What’s at issue here is a deeply troubling problem that has no place in our society. The Board continues to work to establish ethical standards of conduct that all Academy members will be expected to exemplify.”

Mohler condemned the *virtue signaling* in the statement. What is virtue signaling? I liked the Urban Dictionary’s definition.

  1. To take a conspicuous but essentially useless action ostensibly to support a good cause but actually to show off how much more moral you are than everybody else.
    (ed. example)
    Fred: I see George has changed his profile picture to show his support for refugees.
    Barbara: Has he donated money or time? Is he giving English lessons? Is he making a room available?
    Fred: No, no, he’s just virtue signalling.
  2. Advocating a political or philosophical position, and/or taking up a public cause, from a position of vanity, for the primary purpose of demonstrating your conformity with fashionable pop culture values.
    (ed. example)
    Angela’s sudden advocacy for the local pet shelter was mostly an exercise in public relations and virtue signalling. She had never much cared for dogs and cats before, but she instinctively understood teary-eyed public support for defenseless animals generally said something good about her as a person.

Mohler claimed that most people in Hollywood knew about Weinstein’s serial abuse but they all refused to talk about it in any way that mattered. He called it a conspiracy of silence while raking Hollywood over the coals for their willful ignorance and condemned them for virtue signaling.

Of course, Mohler is correct in regards to Hollywood. Sexual exploitation and the movie industry dance cheek to cheek. There are still people that are members of the Academy who have been convicted of sexual crimes. Roman Polanski Is a Child Rapist. It’s Long Past Time for Hollywood to Cast Him Out.

One would think Christians would do a better job than this. They don’t. TWW has been writing about child sex abuse and the evangelical church since 2009. Mohler does not appear to see the irony in his condemnation of Hollywood. He, too, is virtue signaling. Yes, sirree! Mohler is against all that bad sexual stuff that goes on in Hollywood and all those bad actors like Bill Cosby. But, when it comes to his BFF, CJ Mahaney, such accusations are worthy of a good laugh at a national conference.

Why?

I wonder if any of these men regret their choice in supporting CJ Mahaney. Their refusal to discuss it leaves us to imagine why they support him. Is it money? Besides the $200,000 to SBTS, CJ Mahaney has given money to Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church as well as giving monetary assistance to Wayne Grudem. Thabiti Anyabwile told me on Twitter that Mahaney also donated money to help his church in the Cayman Islands when it was damaged by a hurricane. All of these men support CJ Mahaney.

They leave us little to work with. They condemn others like Weistein and Moore BEFORE any conviction but insult us for believing the victims in the SGM debacle. No wonder evangelicalism is getting a bad rap. Way too many celebrities in Christendom act just like the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Maybe they are all just actors…

(PS: Joe Carter, next time, instead of calling us pathological liars, do what we do. Quote our exact words and prove that we are knowingly telling a lie. That is what Christians and thoughtful people usually do.)


Comments

Al Mohler and Joe Carter Are Just Virtue Signaling When it Comes to Harvey Weinstein and Roy Moore — 325 Comments

  1. “If we admit that we were wrong, we will look stupid.”

    The longer it takes to admit that they were wrong, the stupider they will look. So, put it off as long as possible. Those who endorsed and promoted Driscoll for the good of the movement dropped him like a hot potato when the potty-mouth preacher became a liability rather than an asset … “Driscoll who?” Apparently, the “Fab Four” founders of Together for Calvinism have a blood pact when it comes to Mahaney.

  2. Mohler is such a model of Christian virtue. Here is what he contributed to Sproul’s website today (see http://www.ligonier.org/blog/mystery-gospel/):

    Take a look at what is selling in the bookstores and who is hosting the big conferences. You’ll realize that if you can tell people how to buy property and profit from its renovation, you can sell your messages. If you can tell people how to lose weight, you can sell just about anything. If you can tell people how to become handsome and wise, raise children who are well-behaved, and have their pets like them, you will find yourself to be a very popular speaker. You could put your DVDs and CDs together and write books that would be sold in bookstores and hawked on television.

    But if you preach the gospel, you just might discover that it is not quite so popular.

    News flash: there is no money in The Gospel(TM). No conferences, no speaking fees, no book deals, no money to be made anywhere. Only unpopularity. Who knew?

  3. I want to know what church the guy goes to that compared roy moore to Joseph marrying Mary when she was a teen. I saw that article and posted a comment “Joseph wasnt out doinking every other teenager in town while married” these guys make me puke. How low will they go to condone their friends sexual abuse of others…as low as trying to say pedophilia is biblical?? Reminds me of the mahoney crap about those girls asked for it.

  4. Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler, a Republican, dismissed the charges brought forth in a Washington Post article about Moore Thursday, telling The Washington Examiner that the relationship would be akin to that of Joseph and Mary.

    “Take the Bible: Zachariah and Elizabeth for instance,” Zeigler said. “Zachariah was extremely old to marry Elizabeth and they became the parents of John the Baptist. Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

    In the Bible, Jesus is conceived through the Holy Spirit, not sexual relations between Mary and Joseph.
    http://www.good4utah.com/news/politics/alabama-state-official-invokes-joseph-and-mary-to-defend-roy-moore/855090622

  5. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    if you preach the gospel, you just might discover that it is not quite so popular (Al Mohler)

    Ahhh … but if you can convince Generation X, Y, and Z that the “gospel” is Calvinism, you can sell lots of books, pocket speaking fees, be a celebrity reformed icon, etc.

  6. @ sandy c:

    What you’ve cited is proof positive that Godless liberals do not believe the Bible. Why else would they marshal a railroad smear campaign against a Godly man like Judge Moore?

  7. Gees these are some of the endorsements that Roy Moore got. Not sure if this is before the story broke but even already knowing that he got removed from a court case for ruling lesbians shouldnt have unsupervised visits with their own children..these people endorsed him.
    https://www.roymoore.org/Endorsements/
    I am skipping all the repub politicians that of course endorsed him. Steve Bannon, Dr. Dobsen, Phil Robertson- duck dynasty. Mike huckabee, Jim Zeigler, dr mat staver- liberty university, bob vanter plaats-ceo of The Family Leader, bob livingston- personal liberty digest, Dr Randy Brinson- pres of Christian Coalition, peter labarbera- pres of Americans for Truth , kay daly, john giles- former pres of christian coalition of alabama, ed martin- pres of Phyllis Schlafly Center, matt barber- founder of civil rights watch (should be renamed ‘rights for white wealthy guys-screw everyone else) ,brent bozell-chairman of For America, Jerry Falwell jr, bill blankschaen-author of ‘you will be made to care’ , matt trewhella- author of doctrine of the lesser mahistrate’ , aprox 24 baptist pastors in Alabama, and Paul Gottfried- prof emeritus of humanities @ Elizabethtown College. I wonder if any of them have removed their endorsements so they can instead back Strange who is more trumpian

  8. ““Sure, maybe I should have spoke up for those women, …”
    +++++++++++++

    tell me an editor didn’t just write this… on purpose…

  9. From WaPo today by Nancy French November 10 at 11:10 AM

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2017/11/10/what-its-like-to-watch-men-like-roy-moore-as-a-conservative-and-as-a-sex-abuse-survivor/?utm_term=.2629b16306a6

    “… I loved everything about church — the off-key a cappella rendition of ‘Onward, Christian Soldiers,’ the typos in the bulletin, the ladies who smelled like Aquanet with little round rouge circles on their cheeks, and — yes — men like Moore who said long prayers and ran the show.”

    “This changed one hot summer day when I needed a ride home from Vacation Bible School…”

  10. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    News flash: there is no money in The Gospel(TM)… Only unpopularity. Who knew?

    Spot on.

    “Love not the world…neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides for ever.” – 1 John 2:15-17

  11. I tried to listen to joe carters piece on race relations- i never had read anything The Gospel Coalition had published before- and i just couldnt get through it. Some white ‘Christian’ guy that is going to instruct white people how to reach out to african americans IN 2017 like they never thought of it before. Sadly he and his friends probably never thought of any way to do that before or ever thought it necessary. The Gospel Coalition reminds me of what someone said earlier about churches that have ‘grace’ in their church names…..prob dont have any and likely will really mean legalistic authoritarian church with no grace for anyone but themselves. Gospel Coalition is just now finding out what ‘Gospel’ means??? Oh and carters piece on safety plan for churches- small rural churches dont need off duty police it would be a waste of money but larger churches should hire them….he really said that after the mass shooting in a small rural church?? Oh and them having the church identify congregants who may be at risk of having a domestic violence victim should identify potential victims? In any other church affiliation that may sound reasonable but in the TGC church affiliates its just another form of singeling out certain types of people and it ends up ‘those people’ under the guise of concern are just further ostracized. They probably already identify at risk parishoners- so they know who to abuse! And finally after reading for so long about churches like soverien grace and how they have so many defenders it is sickening for carter to pretend that children are the most important at church and they should appoint people to lay down their lives for them??? When you turn the Gospel into a corporation i suppose you have to appoint all the gifts and fruit of the Spirit: we have me, the pastor and all important One, you 3 be elders, you 2 ladies will be compassion- we will call you deaconesses of compassion- you run sunday school, you 3 guys will be the ones that lay down your lives when necessary, oh we really need a deacon of money and i need a raise. Did we forget anyone? Oh yeah we need a guy thar can do “virtue signaling” joe is good at that, hire him!

  12. I would condemn any example of proven pedophilia and any efforts to cover it up.

    The problem is there is much more proof to support the fact that sexual assaults occurred at SGM and that there were no efforts to report the abuse to police but to try and keep quiet the instances of abuse than there is that Judge Moore is a pedophile.

    But many high profile evangelicals are loath to address the SGM abuse, but are itching to prove their bona fides by condemning Moore.

    It’s backwards!

  13. Joe Carter the Gospel is that God sent His only begotten Son who died on the cross beaten and bleeding for the sins of the world and that He grants forgiveness to all the wretched souls that ask Him to. The thing is that you have to acknowledge your wretchedness, confess your sins in sincerity and ask for forgiveness. People often instead run around proclaiming their own righteousness, point out everyone elses sins and never have the courage the kneel down before Jesus and ask Him to forgive them. The worst of those kind of people use the free Gift of God to make money.

  14. refugee wrote:

    @ sandy c:
    I know, I was horrified by this quote. He sounds just as bad and creepy as Vaughn Ohlman.

    Me too, he has endorsed and financed Roy Moore for many years. The thing that also gets me is if the washington post columnist hadnt dug around and convinced those women it was safe to finally speak up we would be hearing the gospel coalition and thousands of others heaping Christian benedictions on Moore and zeigler and all their friends

  15. Ah the wonders of virtue signaling, it gives you a position of moral superiority while requiring absolutely no responsibility on you part, plus you will be able to demonize others while assuming no personal guilt. Virtue signaling seems to be all the rage these days.

  16. “But the people not directly victimized, who knew about the abuse and still did nothing, are all, in one way or another, morally culpable.”–Joe Carter
    +++++++++++++++++++

    (from The Washingtonian article) …a back-and-forth between Morales’s lawyer and former CLC pastor Grant Layman, one of Mahaney’s brothers-in-law:

    Q: . . . [A]s a pastor, when you become aware of sexual child abuse, did you have a responsibility to report that to the police department? That’s a yes or no.

    A: I believe so.

    Q: And you didn’t do it.

    A: No, sir.

  17. “Mohler claimed that most people in Hollywood knew about Weinstein’s serial abuse but they all refused to talk about it in any way that mattered. He called it a conspiracy of silence while raking Hollywood over the coals for their willful ignorance and condemned them for virtue signaling.”

    Kettle black.

    Are they blind to their hypocrisy or do they assume their minions are too dense to notice?

    And here is what I think of Mohler’s use of “virtue signaling” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag

  18. @ sandy c:

    “Zachariah was extremely old to marry Elizabeth and they became the parents of John the Baptist. Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”–Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    good grief…. yet another moron. joe carter and al mohler incriminate themselves by stepping in hypocritical dog doo on purpose, and now this… what is going on??

  19. I have been following some news comments online regarding the Roy Moore allegations, thought i would share a few-

    “The case where the girl was 14 at the time can still be prosecuted. There is no statute of limitations for sex crimes against children under age 16 in Alabama.”

    This next one really goes to the heart of how could TGC ever have supported Moore in the first place. Politically it seems like the same as in their little isolated churches like sovereign grace it doesnt matter what someone does if they are in the good-old boy network:

    “…call it a sick plot, by who? The Washington Post interviewed THIRTY people who confirmed the story. Three other women have come forward saying the same thing. I guess you believe they’re ALL lying. You ask why now, because it’s time. Women in all walks of life are coming out with their stories of abuse and these women are doing it as well. Would it be any better if they waited until AFTER the election. Would they be more believable then. Your guy isn’t a saint and has a questionable history of misconduct. He recently made a very racist statement saying, Keith Ellison, D-Minn., should not be allowed to serve in Congress “because he’s a Muslim.” He was also twice removed from his state Supreme Court position for disobeying court orders and the Constitution. This man is a lying, racist, child molesting POS! Anyone who ignores his history and votes for him will be just as guilty. Some say he won’t go to jail because of the statute of limitations, he also shouldn’t be representing Alabama and OUR country in the Senate either.”

  20. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Are they blind to their hypocrisy or do they assume their minions are too dense to notice?

    My guess is that they’re convinced that their minions are too scared-you-know-whatless of hell to think anything different, and that they’ll hoe the row the way they’re told to hoe it.

  21. Injun Joe wrote:

    What you’ve cited is proof positive that Godless liberals do not believe the Bible. Why else would they marshal a railroad smear campaign against a Godly man like Judge Moore?

    What?

  22. I don’t believe that they have changed one iota. It is simply that Harvey Weinstein and Roy Moore aren’t part of their club. Harvey isn’t a Christian and Roy is a Southern Baptist, but I do not know if he is the correct kind of Baptist for these people, regardless he isn’t in their club.
    Also, I love how they try to hide behind the idea that we shouldn’t gossip. Discussing and gossiping aren’t the same. If these people were around in Bible times, they would have told Mary Magdalene that she was gossiping when she came to tell them of the resurrection.

  23. It has seemed like ever since the fall of Driscoll, TGC has been in this Trump-like mode of “nobody cares about women more than us, everybody agrees!” And this is just part of it. But all they have to do is apologize for promoting him.

  24. Muff Potter wrote:

    My guess is that they’re convinced that their minions are too scared-you-know-whatless of hell to think anything different, and that they’ll hoe the row the way they’re told to hoe it.

    This is what infuriates me more than anything. Hollywood wannabes suffer abuse so the producer will let them have a part in a movie, i understand that its sick and abusive but i can understand how people would cave to that kind of pressure. When a church does it using the tightly woven ‘if you dont obey us you are disobeying God and will burn in hell. It is sick coercive and abuse x 1000. And i hope people reading would understand its the theology doctrine twisting that is done over time that makes victims and whole congregations blind to what is really going on.someone once described it as ‘if you put a frog on a pan of cold water and turn the heat up gradually he wont know youre trying to cook him till its too late.’ so many people looking on it without never having known it themselves will say, i would have spoken up, i would have never let that happen to me, they must have asked for it. Those people have no idea what its like to be a member of a large church that appears to follow scripture and you suddenly realise you are being cooked and everyone around says, no your not he’s a man of God! Arrrgh

  25. Jarrett Edwards wrote:

    I don’t believe that they have changed one iota. It is simply that Harvey Weinstein and Roy Moore aren’t part of their club. Harvey isn’t a Christian and Roy is a Southern Baptist, but I do not know if he is the correct kind of Baptist for these people, regardless he isn’t in their club.

    I wish one of them was vain enough to run for public office so we could see their financials and doners! That Jim Zeigler had donations from 4 or 5 different PACs and all of the PACs were owned by the same company Fine Geddie & Associate’s who also donated tons of money individually! I have a hunch that Sovereign Grace et all and Joe Carter et all would be horrified if anyone followed their financials. Jesus said the love of money is the root of all evil. It also leaves a great trail from leaf to branch to trunk to root of those loving it so much they would cover up sexual abuse of children.

  26. Jim Zeigler of the infamous ‘joseph did it with mary’ comment was also on theresurgent several times…here is his take on luther strange- he compares him to the guy that tried to sell president obamas senate seat but is now in prison “Gov. Blagojevich is now in federal prison. He was impeached and is not eligible for release until 2024. This is eerily similar to what Luther Strange and Bentley are now doing.” Zeigler, a populist grassroots Conservative that has used his position as a bully pulpit to call out corruption across the state, is rumored to be considering a run for the Governor’s seat himself. http://theresurgent.com/al-governors-impeachment-suspended-by-attorney-general-applying-for-senate-appointment/

  27. Just so everyone can gawk and be stupified when the resurgent (as i think they will) endorses luther strange for the senate:

    ““I met with Gov. Bentley the day he appointed Strange and told him, ‘If you do this, you will be impeached’,” Henry recalls. “Gov. Bentley’s reply to me was, ‘Ed, we have to get rid of him. He’s corrupt.’ And I said, ‘You’re going to appoint someone who you believe to be corrupt to the U.S. Senate?’ He said, ‘We have to.’ I said, ‘Even if that means you most likely will be indicted or impeached?’ He said, ‘I’m not going to be indicted, I get to appoint his successor.’” Senator Strange blamed the criticism on a “small group of disgruntled legislators” http://theresurgent.com/alabama-update-governor-ivey-drains-the-swamp-senator-strange-under-fire/

  28. Does their churches sound just like politicians or do politicians sound like TGC churches???

  29. “Randy Brinson: Governor Should Call For Ethics Hearing On Luther Strange
    By Trey Edwards | July 31, 2017, 09:34pm “NEW: Following our article last Friday about the Alabama Ethics Commission delaying their hearing on possibly felony campaign finance violations by Senator Luther Strange until the day after his special election on the 15th, one of his opponent..” “As the concerns about Strange are very similar to those against Bentley, a similar outcome is very likely. Should this occur, and Strange choose to withdraw from the campaign, those voters who cast their ballots for him would be effectively disenfranchised.”
    http://theresurgent.com/randy-brinson-governor-should-demand-ethics-hearing-on-luther-strange/

    “Of course, the idea that Strange is going to stand up to Mitch McConnell is laughably absurd. As Dale’s link to The Washington Examiner pointed out, the Senate Leadership Fund (SLF), which is a pro-McConnell PAC, has poured $9 million into the Alabama Senate race on behalf of Strange. In the Senate, Strange has proven himself to be a “rubber stamp” for McConnell and will continue to be one if he win the runoff election.” “Hopefully Alabamans won’t fall for it. Conservatives have a real chance to cause to strike fear into the hearts of Mitch McConnell and the establishment squishes in D.C. by electing Roy Moore to the Senate.” http://theresurgent.com/luther-strange-campaigns-against-mcconnell-despite-being-backed-by-mcconnell/

  30. Ok so my point is that “the resurgent has already stated Luther Stranges corruption AND they actually endorsed Roy Moore: “Hopefully Alabamans won’t fall for it. Conservatives have a real chance to cause to strike fear into the hearts of Mitch McConnell and the establishment squishes in D.C. by electing Roy Moore to the Senate.” http://theresurgent.com/luther-strange-campaigns-against-mcconnell-despite-being-backed-by-mcconnell/ AND now republicans are trying to ditch Moore because of some really courageous chicks that spoke up and that means many of them are endorsing Luther Strange and my oh my what is Joe Carter gonna say? This is as complicated as a sex abuse scandal in a church!!

  31. I was trying to figure out where Joe Carter personally stands on Roy Moore and Jim Zeigler both today and more importantly before the moore scandal and geez Joe should be a politician himself cause he is great at double speak and rationalization. This quote of his on the trump/clinton election may shed some light on how he weighs church leadership…scary if its saying its ok to ignore abuse in leadership for the good of the Gospel. “For the Justice side, this means deciding how to convince others that supporting Trump and downplaying character is consistent with the biblical standard of leadership, and how their choice won’t impede gospel advance. For the Witness side this means figuring out what additional measures can be taken to offset the detrimental effects on justice that will result from a Clinton presidency.” http://www.christianexaminer.com/article/election-exposes-widening-chasm-among-southern-baptist-evangelicals/51200.htm.

    Sorry i was looking for the gospelTM- trademark logo but hit the by accident lol

  32. What you’ve cited is proof positive that Godless liberals do not believe the Bible. Why else would they marshal a railroad smear campaign against a Godly man like Judge Moore?
    Sorry, but your comment makes me want to weep for victims.I think you’ll find that harrassment/rape claims – usually by women against more powerful men – are nearly always found to be true. Only a very small percentage are fabricated. The odd fantasist is usually caught out by inconsistencies in her account. I’m old enough to remember the 1960-70s. It was not understood back then the lasting harm that is caused by sexual abuse/harrassment. Ask anyone who was abused as a child/teen, they will tell you the trauma, the PTSD has lasted many decades and had a profound effect on, or even ruined, their adult lives. And the reason they didn’t report it earlier, but lived with the trauma that ate away at the very core of their being? They knew in past times they would not be believed reporting abuse by a powerful and often power-mad male perpetrator. Especially if he were a ‘Godly’ one.

  33. In his own twittery words:
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Oct 10
    Replying to @mississippi1962 and @purpleyodalove
    I don’t think it’s right to blame the actual victims. But people who enable the abuse should be held accountable.
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Oct 10
    Replying to @mississippi1962 and @purpleyodalove
    I’m sorry to hear that. Do you think any other person who had knowledge of the assault had a moral obligation to say something?
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Oct 10
    Replying to @mississippi1962
    So are you saying that none of the people who knew about his behavior had any moral obligation to protect women from further abuse?
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Oct 10
    Replying to @purpleyodalove and @mississippi1962
    So it’s okay if people know about abuse and don’t say anything or try to stop it?
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Oct 10
    Replying to @purpleyodalove and @mississippi1962
    I’m referring only to the women who it didn’t happen to but who knew the abuse was happening to other women and said nothing.
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Oct 10
    Replying to @mississippi1962
    I’m not saying she should have gone to the police. But shouldn’t she have done *something* to protect other women?
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Oct 10
    Replying to @wigglesmcghee
    Yes, I agree. That too is shameful.
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Oct 10
    Replying to @wigglesmcghee
    I’ll leave that to her own conscience. But if she knew and kept quiet that is certainly troubling.
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Oct 10
    Keeping silent about it also allowed it to happen again.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/joecarter

  34. Conversation
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Aug 31
    “Did God really say…?”

    The Bible: Yes

    “I’m a Christian! Who gave you authority to tell me what to believe?”

    The Bible: God
    Charlie Rosen
    Charlie Rosen
    @cacisor
    ·
    Aug 31
    Ha, you never really address the fact that the Bible can be and has been interpreted in hundreds of different ways.
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    ·
    Aug 31
    Some things, yes. Most things, no.
    Charlie Rosen
    Charlie Rosen
    @cacisor
    ·
    Aug 31
    Christian ‘intellectuals’ confidently saying that the Bible is clear, when theres 100s of ex. where its not causes doubts in everything else
    Joe Carter
    Joe Carter
    @joecarter
    Replying to @cacisor
    The Bible tends to be clear on matters of doctrine and ethics (including sexual ethics). But we have the church to help interpret it.
    6:28 PM · Aug 31, 2017https://mobile.twitter.com/joecarter

    Cause we all know God needs Joe to interpret it for us argh

  35. What’s happened in the entertainment industry easily parallels what’s happened in these churches. Yet where those in the entertainment industry are falling over themselves to condemn the abuse – hey, their payday is at stake – many church leaders by and large ignore it.
    The difference is in secular society you can’t use god as a leverage to keep people in line.

  36. Max wrote:

    you can sell lots of books, pocket speaking fees, be a celebrity reformed icon, etc.

    Yes. I was obviously expressing sarcasm about Mohler’s article. When I read it yesterday morning his hypocrisy nearly made me gasp. These guys hold numerous conferences, are flooding the market with books, speak all over the place, and then Mohler has the audacity to say there is no money or popularity in it. Wow.

  37. @ sandy c:
    It would be better to not go down the political path on this site because of hove divisive it can get. I am personally disgusted with politicians on both sides. The one area where politicians seem very bipartisan is how both parties provide ample evidence of fallen humanity. The system seems rigged against normal people becoming national leaders.

  38. I don’t know if people are actually being threatened with biblical hell for how they vote. I do know that there is a rather? prevalent idea that if one does not vote in a certain way then the America which the other side is trying to create is the hell which one will have helped create for themselves and their progeny.

    People on both sides of an issue will overlook a lot in the lives and ideas of the people they support just in order to avoid something they think is worse. Nixon got elected to a second term, for example, while everybody knew there were problems. Something about ‘pick your poison’. In the last election there were a lot of people, if you believe what people say, who thought that if they voted at all they would be voting for somebody they did not really want to see in the white house.

    I have voted from time to time for the lesser evil in political elections when it was that or refuse to vote at all. That said, the deep south is not necessarily like the rest of us-and yes that is bias. I would not put money on the Alabama vote.

  39. And now one of my pet peeves. If Moore had early on been practicing the Graham/ Pence rule then he would not have had the opportunity to abuse anybody and nobody would have been abused, and nobody would have had the opportunity to either accuse or falsely accuse him, and we would not be seeing this mess right now.

    Pet peeve #2: High dominance people, male and female, do high dominance things including stuff which is legally and morally wrong, just a lot of the time. Are we really all that surprised when they get caught?

  40. elastigirl wrote:

    ““Sure, maybe I should have spoke up for those women, …”

    +++++++++++++
    tell me an editor didn’t just write this… on purpose…

    I assume this was someone from hereabouts in Scotland, where the imperfect is generally used for the past participle. As in, “I should’ve went…” “I should’ve spoke…” etc. I’d need to hear the original quote being spoken, though, because without the right accent it’d sound like a cheap imitation.

  41. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    the audacity to say there is no money or popularity in it

    There has always been money and popularity for those who preach “another gospel.” The cult of personality sells.

  42. sandy c wrote:

    The Bible tends to be clear on matters of doctrine and ethics (including sexual ethics). But we have the church to help interpret it. (Joe Carter)

    Herein lies the reason you don’t hear New Calvinists preaching much about the ministry of the Holy Spirit. If you cut the Spirit out of the equation, you need a man to teach you.

    “The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you everything” (John 14:26)

    If we rely completely on the teachings and traditions of men for “truth”, rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us to Truth, we can be led astray … e.g., New Calvinism.

  43. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    These guys hold numerous conferences, are flooding the market with books, speak all over the place, and then Mohler has the audacity to say there is no money or popularity in it.

    He says there’s no money or popularity in preaching the gospel.

    I don’t want to put words in his mouth, either directly or by stealth and connivance (i.e., by saying “I don’t want to put words in his mouth” and then crudely implying just the opposite). So I won’t speculate on what Mr Mohler intends to imply by saying this. But what his words actually imply, objectively speaking, is that he has made a career and gained considerable influence by doing things other than preaching the gospel.

  44. Max wrote:

    If you cut the Spirit out of the equation, you need a man to teach you.
    “The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you everything” (John 14:26)

    Well stated.

  45. Max wrote:

    those who preach “another gospel.” The cult of personality sells.

    Israel demanded a king. God wasn’t good enough.

  46. okrapod wrote:

    High dominance people, male and female, do high dominance things including stuff which is legally and morally wrong, just a lot of the time.

    Power. Corrupts.

  47. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    Well, if their constituents followed your lead and voted with their feet, they would no longer have an audience supporting them, and it really would drain the swamp, so to speak.

  48. TO OUR READERS

    Please listen to Sean Hannity’s interview with Roy Moore. It is rather disconcerting. Hannity is a Moore supporter but he carefully asked questions of him and was not getting the answers he expected. It was bit startling.
    https://youtu.be/F197-E_U3aY

  49. okrapod wrote:

    And now one of my pet peeves. If Moore had early on been practicing the Graham/ Pence rule then he would not have had the opportunity to abuse anybody and nobody would have been abused, and nobody would have had the opportunity to either accuse or falsely accuse him, and we would not be seeing this mess right now.

    And the Graham/Pence rule is used to keep women in subordinate positions in business and life, because OMG a man can’t be trusted to be in the same room alone with a woman. When I go into the office, many times I’m the only woman and some days I’m the only woman with a guy next door in the same office suite (we both have badges to get into the suite). In all the years I’ve worked with Greg or Erich or Jay in the room next door, I have never worried there was going to be hanky panky–we’re entirely too busy for that!

  50. @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:

    I understand that. That however does not negate all these accusations about people who experienced something entirely different from your experience. If we are to believe every story, then both those who had good experiences and those who had bad experiences are to be believed. So, why is it not a legitimate choice as to how to conduct one’s life in this area? I obviously think that it is, but I also think that those who disagree with me may disagree. That does not mean, however, that I plan to be silent about what I think is a legitimate choice as how to avoid certain kinds of problems. If, of course, we believe all these accusers who are coming forth. I tend to believe them, but I could be mistaken.

  51. @ dee:
    Rebecca Rose Woodland, trial lawyer, points out (after the interview) that the women accusers don’t know each other and separately tell similar stories.

    This is exactly how the WWII Holocaust was verified when it was up in the air about what was happening in Europe. Separate unrelated individuals’ testimonies all told similar stories.

  52. @ dee:
    Good Lord! We live in a day when you can’t even trust some pastors to be Christlike … we certainly shouldn’t expect all politicians who call themselves Christian to be righteous! Raising a national son to a high office who is without shame in his background is like looking for a California Condor on a mountain peak … they are rare and endangered species.

  53. I guess what shocks me the most is not so much the initial story, but the reaction. There are some supporters of Roy Moore who have flatly said they would vote for a pedophile before they voted for the other candidate. Sorry, that’s cultic. That’s NUTS. You’d vote for someone who has sexual desires for children (and maybe has acted upon them) before you’d even consider the other candidate? Some things should just be beyond the pale.

  54. THE MORE VIRTUE SIGNALLING, THE GREATER THE ABUSE AND CORRUPTION.

    I have observed that in various milieus for decades, but only now have recognized the generic pattern.

  55. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    And the Graham/Pence rule is used to keep women in subordinate positions in business and life, because OMG a man can’t be trusted to be in the same room alone with a woman.

    As in “All Men Are Rapists”, “All Women Are Whores”, or both?

  56. Good interview by Hannity.

    I am not from Alabama and neither I do not respond positively to Roy Moore. At all.

    But, if it is shown that he did date girls 15 years younger than himself and if they were over 16, then he did not break the law. Why would I care? When my mother was 19 she began dating my father who was 15 years older than she was. One of mother’s sisters also married a much older man. I would not like to do that myself, but it is not immoral and is not apparently illegal in Alabama.

    If the allegations about the 14 year old are correct then is was illegal at the time in Alabama and he should not be in the senate or any other elected office, much less the judiciary as he has been.

    And yes, he is equivocating on the subject in the interview. And yes, this does smack of politics. All of the above.

    Surely Alabama could do better than this for the senate. But here we sometimes do tend to think that any politics from south of our border just might be rather, well, ‘different’, so what can I say.

    I think he might get elected. We will see.

  57. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    cultic… sexual desires for children …

    Some of these “righteous” guys have been around a loooong time, operating stealth in every sphere of society. Duplicitous. Who was that guy banging on doors in airport bathrooms…? Who would have guessed? Married with kids, grandkids.

  58. Max wrote:

    “If we admit that we were wrong, we will look stupid.”

    Sunk Cost Fallacy, the grifter’s greatest Friend.

    Get the marks so emotionally invested in the swindle that they’ll stay in (and even defend the con man), even when they KNOW they’re being taken to the cleaners. Because otherwise they’d have to admit they got conned.

  59. okrapod wrote:

    One of mother’s sisters also married a much older man. I would not like to do that myself, but it is not immoral and is not apparently illegal in Alabama.

    I’ll betcha’ (down in Bama’) that if the gal is 15 years older than the guy, then all of a sudden it’s sick and perverted.

  60. Max wrote:

    sandy c wrote:
    The Bible tends to be clear on matters of doctrine and ethics (including sexual ethics). But we have the church to help interpret it. (Joe Carter)
    //
    Herein lies the reason you don’t hear New Calvinists preaching much about the ministry of the Holy Spirit. If you cut the Spirit out of the equation, you need a man to teach you.
    “The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you everything” (John 14:26)

    Yeah, I thought that quote of Carter’s from Twitter was rather telling: “But we need the church to interpret it.” Of course, he doesn’t mean “church”. He means “elders in a New Calvinist church”. Peons wouldn’t be capable of listening properly to God and need “submission to loving authority” (Joe Carter, comments of the Broken Wolves article) to be informed what the Bible says.

    Because an elder is higher than God…

  61. @ Anonymous Oracle at Delphi:

    “But many high profile evangelicals are loath to address the SGM abuse, but are itching to prove their bona fides by condemning Moore.”
    ++++++++++++++

    oh yes — they’ve gotten out their signal headpieces, changed the bulb to the red one, carefully placed it on top of their head, tied it under their chin, and turned it on. they’ll walk around like this for at least the next few weeks.

    virtue signalling — what a great term. i’ve been looking for just the right word(s) to describe what professional christians do. THANK YOU, Al Mohler!

  62. @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:

    “I guess what shocks me the most is not so much the initial story, but the reaction. …You’d vote for someone who has sexual desires for children (and maybe has acted upon them) before you’d even consider the other candidate?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    well, according to Mr. Moore, the shadowy figures orchestrating all these allegations are “veeerrrry liberal”. the sky is falling for sure this time!

  63. @ dee:

    dee — are the likes of Joe Carter, Al Mohler, & friends being called out for their hypocrisy on twitter? (i don’t quite understand twitter — living in my own private techno-hamlet here)

  64. Condemning Hollywood elite and polital insiders costs these men nothing. Actually being morally strong and ethical is not something these men practice. They’d rather sound ethical then be ethical.

  65. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    But what his words actually imply, objectively speaking, is that he has made a career and gained considerable influence by doing things other than preaching the gospel.

    Very true. I wonder if he meant to imply that he became popular for this very reason, that he does not preach the gospel. Freudian slip?

  66. dee wrote:

    Please listen to Sean Hannity’s interview with Roy Moore.

    People are going to hear what they want to hear from this interview. I think the only thing it really proves is that he is a good politician (using ‘good’ in the very worst sense of the word). What bothers me most is how the timing impacts the election. I wish this would have come out much earlier. It came out too late for his party to find a good alternative (as if there is such a thing as a good alternative politician for either party).

  67. I think it was an excellent interview by Hannity.

    It seems clearer now that this is all politically motivated. Waiting 40 years and four weeks before an election raises a red flag. So when you are trailing in the polls by 11 percent, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain with making politically motivated charges which probably can’t be proven either way. I believe if Roy Moore’s opponent was ahead in the polls by 11 percent these charges would not have surfaced because they wouldn’t be needed to win the election.

  68. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    What bothers me most is how the timing impacts the election. I wish this would have come out much earlier.

    It bothers me too. But if the agenda is to win the election, why would the opponent give Moore’s party time to find another candidate?

  69. Ken G wrote:

    It seems clearer now that this is all politically motivated.

    Would you opine this is a Democrat was alleged to have done this and there were only 30 days left in the election?

  70. mot wrote:

    Would you opine this is a Democrat was alleged to have done this and there were only 30 days left in the election?

    I believe Roy Moore stated that it was four weeks before the election. I assume that is correct. Politically could mean your opponent or it could mean anyone of any political persuasion who doesn’t want you to get elected.

  71. @ Ken G:

    Did you listen to the three folks he talked to after the interview? They had a different perspective with some valid points that I also picked up on during the actual interview.

  72. I wouldn’t vote for Roy Moore even if the current
    allegations hadn’t come up. He appears to have very little respect for the Constitution.

  73. okrapod wrote:

    I am not from Alabama

    I am not from Alabama even more.

    I did grow up near Birmingham, but it was actual Birmingham.

  74. Jamie Carter wrote:

    This twitter thread talks all about the evangelical thinking that underlies the acceptance of courtships between adult men and young girls – it’s related to what’s going on.

    It’s accepted because it’s Biblical. It’s Biblical because that’s what the Hebrew Patriarchs did, right? It’s only fought against now because Godless liberals don’t believe the Bible.

  75. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):

    If I had time I would dissect line by line how Moore “admits” his guilt in this interview. At the very very very least, his confession of such faulty memory alone should disqualify him from public service.

  76. Bridget wrote:

    Injun Joe wrote:

    What you’ve cited is proof positive that Godless liberals do not believe the Bible. Why else would they marshal a railroad smear campaign against a Godly man like Judge Moore?

    What?

    “Godless liberals” ÷ A term I have come to disparage because of the likes of those who use it and the context in which they use it.

  77. Patti wrote:

    At the very very very least, his confession of such faulty memory alone should disqualify him from public service.

    If that is the standard, most of our politcians are disqualified. Big name politicians from both sides have similar problem with not remembering important details. I am not thrilled with either party.

  78. Patti wrote:

    At the very very very least, his confession of such faulty memory alone should disqualify him from public service.

    And when you were six years old you took another cookie from the cookie jar after your mother told you not to take another cookie. How do you respond to that allegation? Well, I really don’t remember. There it is – proof you have faulty memory and you should be disqualified from ________ (fill in as appropriate)

  79. Bridget wrote:

    I wouldn’t vote for Roy Moore even if the current
    allegations hadn’t come up. He appears to have very little respect for the Constitution.

    I certainly do not think he has a very high view of women, but this will probably help him get the votes of Southern Baptists.

  80. I absolutely disagree that this older men and young females is religious only. It is not uncommon, it is not limited to fundamentalists, and how anybody got to thinking it was an evangelical thing, as opposed to a thing in the larger culture, amazes me.

    The lady on twitter says it is not about the south. Well, it is about the culture and not just about religion, and if her statement is correct then the yankees are doing it also.

    Moore is trying to obfuscate as to whether or not he was dating or trying to date older adolescents. I have every idea that he was, and that like he said their mothers wanted their daughters involved with him at the time. This happens. He has no choice at this point but to try to deny it because of the current social attitude that this behavior is unacceptable. In trying to deny, however, the most he can plead and get away with it is lack of memory. Once he has claimed loss of memory, then who could prove that he was lying? It may be that this did not come up in prior elections because it would not have been particularly an issue for Alabama, but now Washington and the whole nation is watching and it is an issue.

    The thing about alleged sexual assault on a 14 year old minor is a different issue.

    I do not believe his claims of memory loss, but I have to say that I have loss of memory. My children are forever saying don’t I remember when they were children and ‘how we used to…’ and verily I tell you, I do not remember any such thing. I am even inclined at times to think that my children are not telling the truth. That said, while I do have an aging brain I have no symptoms of actual diagnosable dementia. Moore is no spring chicken either. So, who knows what may be a lie and what may not.

    I think he is pulling one, and doing so cleverly enough that he may yet get elected.

  81. ___

    “Unreported Abuse?”

    hmmm…

    It is common knowledge that Reverend Joe Carter, a pastor of Grace Hill Church, in Herndon, Virginia, and his TGC Calvinist associates continue to this day to cover up for SGC Right Reverend C.J. Mahaney whose documented heinous POD/PDI/SGM in-house policy resulted in the unreported abuse of children and minors for over thirty years, Maryland State statute of limitations not withstanding. Note: Mahaney was never accused of sexual misconduct himself.

    In retrospect, in 2007, Nate Morales told Reverend Grant Layman he sexually abused boys at SGM Covenant Life Church.  Layman testified under oath that he shared this information with the “pastoral team” at CLC.  He further testified that he had a responsibility to report these crimes but didn’t do it.  Upon reception of this information, the “pastoral team” discussed how they should handle the situation and what they should do with the information.  Like Laymen, they did nothing.  None of the pastors reported the acknowledgment of sex crimes by Morales to the police.  That is ever so serious.  Layman also testified at the trial that he knew about Morales’ sexual abuse all the way back in 1992.  Layman also testified under oath at the trial that so did other pastors like C.J. Mahaney, Robin Boisvert and Chris Glass who knew as well.  “Handling the Nate Morales issue” is a reference to “the events related to 2007” when Nate Morales told Grant Layman he was a sex abuser and Layman conveyed this information to Pastors Harris, Maresco, Megorden, Boisvert and others.  Once again, the “issue” concerns them NOT reporting Nate Morales crimes to police. 

    In January 2105, Michelle Boorstein, the religion reporter for The Washington Post, wrote an article about Joshua Harris leaving Covenant Life Church for seminary.  During an interview, Harris told her about the policy not to report the sexual abuse of children to law enforcement.  This policy was set by C.J. Mahaney and carried out by his staff.  Here is the relevant excerpt. 
    Pastor Joshua Harris, an evangelical outlier, heads to mainstream seminary:
    ___
    http://wjla.com/news/crime/nathaniel-morales-of-covenant-life-church-convicted-of-sexually-abusing-young-boys-103175

    http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/joe-carter-of-the-gospel-coalition-says-detwiler-is-making-u.html/

    —-

  82. okrapod wrote:

    I think he is pulling one, and doing so cleverly enough that he may yet get elected.

    If I was a betting man–if he does not drop out he will get elected.

  83. Max wrote:

    Herein lies the reason you don’t hear New Calvinists preaching much about the ministry of the Holy Spirit. If you cut the Spirit out of the equation, you need a man to teach you.

    “The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you everything” (John 14:26)

    Good point! After reading hours and hours of joe carter posts on his past and present blogs and hundreds of tweets i dont recall even pne time seeing the words: Jesus, Christ, Cross, Crucified, Holy Spirit. This is very disconcerting.

  84. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Sunk Cost Fallacy, the grifter’s greatest Friend.
    Get the marks so emotionally invested in the swindle that they’ll stay in (and even defend the con man), even when they KNOW they’re being taken to the cleaners. Because otherwise they’d have to admit they got conned.

    I’ve talked to ex-Scientologists and that is the biggest thing with them. They’re afraid to leave, because they’re seriously worried they’ll lose their eternity. So they stay in conditions that most people would be, “Hey, WHAT?” about until they finally decide to leave on their own or DM and his minions hit a line they simply will not cross. But up until then, they’ll do terrible things they hate, like cut family members out, because they’re terrified they’ll lose their ability to continue “Up the Bridge.”

  85. Ken G wrote:

    It seems clearer now that this is all politically motivated. Waiting 40 years and four weeks before an election raises a red flag. So when you are trailing in the polls by 11 percent, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain with making politically motivated charges which probably can’t be proven either way. I believe if Roy Moore’s opponent was ahead in the polls by 11 percent these charges would not have surfaced because they wouldn’t be needed to win the election.

    No, apparently this was known in some circles in Alabama but it wasn’t until the Washington Post sent down reporters to cover the race that it became an issue. There are four women, and their stories are backed by 30 other people. I also saw a woman who used to work with Moore when he was an assistant District Attorney on Twitter, and she said it was known in the office that he went after much younger women.

    But this is the deal, I dislike, I resent, I HATE this idea that it can’t be true because it happened 40 years ago and this should raise a red flag. No, this is the deal. Back in 1979, if a 14 YO girl had said she’d been pawed by an assistant DA, who would be believed, the girl or the ADA? I can tell you who would be believed, and that would be the ADA. We all grew up knowing who had the power and Roy Moore was in that group. I’m still astonished, even though I haven’t practiced law in over two decades, the amount of deference I get because I used to be a lawyer.

    Back when Dee visited Tucson earlier this year, I told her about how I was sexually assaulted when I was 9 years old, back in 1969. I had never told anyone before I told Dee. Because who would have believed me? I completely understand why these women were silent all these years.

    So, no, I’m frankly not in the mood for wondering why the women didn’t step forward years ago. Not when the women did step forward today and they’re being called liars and being doxxed at their places of work and so on and so forth. That’s why they didn’t say anything. And yes, I believe them.

  86. mot wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    I think he is pulling one, and doing so cleverly enough that he may yet get elected.
    If I was a betting man–if he does not drop out he will get elected.

    It appears he’s going forward. News just announced he’s going to sue the Washington Post for defamation.

  87. ishy wrote:

    It appears he’s going forward. News just announced he’s going to sue the Washington Post for defamation.

    Sorry, apparently his wife has announced that.

  88. dee wrote:

    TO OUR READERS

    Please listen to Sean Hannity’s interview with Roy Moore. It is rather disconcerting. Hannity is a Moore supporter but he carefully asked questions of him and was not getting the answers he expected. It was bit startling.
    https://youtu.be/F197-E_U3aY

    WOW

  89. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I guess what shocks me the most is not so much the initial story, but the reaction. There are some supporters of Roy Moore who have flatly said they would vote for a pedophile before they voted for the other candidate. Sorry, that’s cultic. That’s NUTS. You’d vote for someone who has sexual desires for children (and maybe has acted upon them) before you’d even consider the other candidate? Some things should just be beyond the pale.

    I saw a woman (on ccn i believe)actually say she would still vote for him! Because, she said, God has already forgiven him and he is still better than a democrat!! Beyond the pale, way way beyond!

  90. okrapod wrote:

    But here we sometimes do tend to think that any politics from south of our border just might be rather, well, ‘different’, so what can I say.

    I think if the allegations were just over him dating younger women many would agree with what you said. The younger girls that were of the age of consent that he agreed he might have dated and then denied dating in the same interview with sean hannity point to a pattern that gives great credence to the 14yr olds story and lends credibility to a pattern of targeting vulnerable young women and not a case of an older man that fell in love with and married a particular young woman. and it also shows that he is waffeling on his answers depending on if sean points out if its dispicable or not. When Sean pointed out dispicable behavior his answer was no, before that it was well their moms gave me permission if i did do it.

  91. Bridget wrote:

    I wouldn’t vote for Roy Moore even if the current
    allegations hadn’t come up. He appears to have very little respect for the Constitution.

    And also if we are to believe him in the interview he is showing and saying that his memory is gone. I dont remember i dont remember. A 32 yr old guy can prob remember if he dated hot 16 yr olds or not..how on earth is he going to be able to remember obscure legal decisions that are decades old that apply to current court cases!

  92. ishy wrote:

    mot wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    I think he is pulling one, and doing so cleverly enough that he may yet get elected.
    If I was a betting man–if he does not drop out he will get elected.

    It appears he’s going forward. News just announced he’s going to sue the Washington Post for defamation.

    Satan or Roy Moore for Alabama Senate. Roy Moore wins in a land slide. These are truly amazing days we are living in.

  93. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I am not from Alabama even more.

    I did grow up near Birmingham, but it was actual Birmingham.

    My gramma was from Alabama and its pronounced Bama! Lol

  94. Darlene. wrote:

    Injun Joe wrote:

    What you’ve cited is proof positive that Godless liberals do not believe the Bible. Why else would they marshal a railroad smear campaign against a Godly man like Judge Moore?

    What?

    “Godless liberals” ÷ A term I have come to disparage because of the likes of those who use it and the context in which they use it.

    Also horribly offensive is when they slur other ethnicities to make themselves look hip. Ndn my arse

  95. Ken G wrote:

    And when you were six years old you took another cookie from the cookie jar after your mother told you not to take another cookie. How do you respond to that allegation? Well, I really don’t remember. There it is – proof you have faulty memory and you should be disqualified from ________ (fill in as appropriate)

    The bible is clear that sexual sin is worse than other sins, flee from fornication… There is absolutely no comparison between stealing a cookie or raping a young woman. The effects are written on the conscience of both victim and abuser with a diamond pointed pen. I really have to wonder what kind of a person would defend an accused pedo with an arguement like this? Do you have such a seared conscience of your own that you would think it the same as taking cookies from a cookie jar???

  96. A former prosecutor who once worked alongside embattled Alabama GOP Senate candidate Roy Moore in the early 1980s told CNN it was “common knowledge” at the time that Moore dated high school girls.

    “It was common knowledge that Roy dated high school girls, everyone we knew thought it was weird,” former deputy district attorney Teresa Jones told CNN in comments aired Saturday. “We wondered why someone his age would hang out at high school football games and the mall … but you really wouldn’t say anything to someone like that https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teresa-jones-says-roy-moore-common-knowledge-dated-teens/

  97. Injun Joe wrote:

    It’s accepted because it’s Biblical. It’s Biblical because that’s what the Hebrew Patriarchs did, right? It’s only fought against now because Godless liberals don’t believe the Bible.

    You got it, Joe! Funny how we godless liberals were able to make statutory rape the law of the land in a majority Christian nation. Guess all them god fearin’ christians were really asleep at the switch when we pulled that one off!

  98. mot wrote:

    Satan or Roy Moore for Alabama Senate. Roy Moore wins in a land slide.

    Well, I certainly hope that ANY human being would win in a landslide election against Satan. But I don’t think you are implying that the Democratic candidate is Satan. At this point in the process, people are no longer voting for individuals, they are voting for the party they think will best represent their interests (or at least do the least harm). How Moore came to be the Republican candidate is a twisted story that is related to the corrupt Gov Bentley. Okrapod’s earlier comment about choosing one’s poison is very applicable for this special election.

  99. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Very true. I wonder if he meant to imply that he became popular for this very reason, that he does not preach the gospel. Freudian slip?

    I was trying to put a little ‘TM’ by an earlier post of mine but im new at smart phones and it came out: TGC atm. The little emoticon didnt show up on my post but i was sure rofl

  100. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    What bothers me most is how the timing impacts the election. I wish this would have come out much earlier. It came out too late for his party to find a good alternative (as if there is such a thing as a good alternative politician for either party).

    I think people can confidently assume that the wa post was timed to release for political reasons and also that the women did not do this for political reasons, those can both be true. I wish more people would be helping more abuse victims find courage to come forward and also help them locate counseling help in between elections as well.

  101. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    So, no, I’m frankly not in the mood for wondering why the women didn’t step forward years ago. Not when the women did step forward today and they’re being called liars and being doxxed at their places of work and so on and so forth. That’s why they didn’t say anything. And yes, I believe them.

    Absolutely agree with your post! Also people forget that there was no protection for victims if their boss fired them for daring to speak up!

  102. ishy wrote:

    It appears he’s going forward. News just announced he’s going to sue the Washington Post for defamation.

    He also said ‘they’ (his political backers?) were already investigating the people making allegations. Notice he didnt say investigating the allegations- investigating the post and accusers

  103. I think people can confidently assume that the wa post was timed to release for political reasons and also that the women did not do this for political reasons, those can both be true. I wish more people would be helping more abuse victims find courage to come forward and also help them locate counseling help in between elections as well.

    So the Post also used these women to further their political agenda. That stinks too.

  104. I must be missing something about the allegations.

    What sort of abuse are the older girls claiming? I do know one mentioned that he ‘supplied’ her with alcohol and she was underage, but it is not clear what supplied means. But are any of them claiming assault of any sort? I read one place where no sexual intercourse has been claimed by any of the older girls. If he was having sex with them this would be immoral but not illegal after the age of 16. So what exactly is the claimed abuse of these older ones?

  105. sandy c wrote:

    After reading hours and hours of joe carter posts on his past and present blogs and hundreds of tweets i dont recall even pne time seeing the words: Jesus, Christ, Cross, Crucified, Holy Spirit. This is very disconcerting.

    New Calvinists talk a lot about “God”, with only occasional mention of Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. In their sermons, they drop the names of Calvinist icons more than Jesus. Another gospel.

  106. Max wrote:

    sandy c wrote:

    After reading hours and hours of joe carter posts on his past and present blogs and hundreds of tweets i dont recall even pne time seeing the words: Jesus, Christ, Cross, Crucified, Holy Spirit. This is very disconcerting.

    New Calvinists talk a lot about “God”, with only occasional mention of Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. In their sermons, they drop the names of Calvinist icons more than Jesus. Another gospel.

    Max: But so sadly the SBC has pretty much been taken over by the Calvinists.

  107. mot wrote:

    the SBC has pretty much been taken over by the Calvinist

    Most SBC entities are now controlled by New Calvinist leaders, including leading seminaries, home and foreign mission agencies, publishing house, and a growing number of churches (by takeover or church plant). SBC’s aggressive church planting program is primarily a New Calvinist venture to plant reformed theology, rather than Gospel churches where the name of Jesus is raised above all names. As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I’m saddened to see a once great evangelistic denomination go this route.

  108. JYJames wrote:

    LA Times By KATHRYN BRIGHTBILL NOV 10, 2017 Op-ed

    “Roy Moore’s alleged pursuit of a young girl is the symptom of a larger problem in evangelical circles”

    http://beta.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-brightbill-roy-moore-evangelical-culture-20171110-story.html

    The New Calvinists are not going to like this article, especially things like:

    “Prominent conservative Reformed theologian Doug Wilson has a documented history of mishandling sexual abuse cases within his congregation. Nevertheless, he continues to be promoted by evangelical leaders such as John Piper, whose Desiring God site still publishes Wilson’s work.”

  109. Just a reminder: TWW wishes to stay away from politics and instead focus on the abuse. It is fine to discuss the fact a candidate has been accused of abuse, especially those who claim to be Christians. However, who one should or should not or did not vote for is not a subject for this blog. There are a gazillion other blogs for that. We get in enough trouble discussing abuse. If we added politics to this blog, we may as well shoot ourselves in the foot.

  110. drstevej wrote:

    So the Post also used these women to further their political agenda. That stinks too.

    I dont know if the post did or not honestly. It is well known that they have a history of “breaking stories” right before elections. I would go read the wa post to see why they released this story when they did but i cant afford to subscribe to be able to read their online or offline news.

  111. @ Jamie Carter:
    Im not even going to waste my time reading that. Are you seriously saying that there is something in the bible that says patriarchs used to entice young girls to their tents, ply them with alcohol and have sex with them, lots of them and never marrying any of them and so guys like roy moore are just being biblical????

  112. @ Sòpwith:
    Thank you for posting this!

    From one of the links: Brent Detwiler: “Nor did Carter hear Assistant State’s Attorney Jessica Hall tell the jury three times in her opening statement that the “heinous crimes” committed by Morales were “covered up” by Covenant Life pastors.

    “Joe Carter should be spending all his time exposing the widespread criminal conspiracy to commit and cover up sex abuse at Covenant Life Church and in Sovereign Grace Ministries rather than discrediting those who are on the side of justice.”

    Well said Mr. Detwiler!

  113. http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/joe-carter-of-the-gospel-coalition-says-detwiler-is-making-u.html/

    Here is the link to my last comment, the quote from Mr.Detwiler.

    Quote:Brent Detwiler: “Nor did Carter hear Assistant State’s Attorney Jessica Hall tell the jury three times in her opening statement that the “heinous crimes” committed by Morales were “covered up” by Covenant Life pastors.

    “Joe Carter should be spending all his time exposing the widespread criminal conspiracy to commit and cover up sex abuse at Covenant Life Church and in Sovereign Grace Ministries rather than discrediting those who are on the side of justice.”

  114. Max wrote:

    As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I’m saddened to see a once great evangelistic denomination go this route.

    I am wondering how it happened. Maybe young charismatic pastors that can get large amounts of followers quickly, to restore dwindling church membership. Whatever happened its really really hard to undo 🙁

  115. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    And the Graham/Pence rule is used to keep women in subordinate positions in business and life, because OMG a man can’t be trusted to be in the same room alone with a woman.

    When I go into the office, many times I’m the only woman and some days I’m the only woman with a guy next door in the same office suite (we both have badges to get into the suite).

    In all the years I’ve worked with Greg or Erich or Jay in the room next door, I have never worried there was going to be hanky panky–we’re entirely too busy for that!

    I pretty much oppose the Billy Graham Rule because it’s sexist. Treats women like sex objects. Limits the opportunities of women in the work place, and so on.

    The solution is not to assume or treat all women like harlots, temptresses or possible law suits, but to teach men to keep their pants zipped up.

    It’s annoying how women have to pay the price for the shortcomings of men all the time. Then people who defend BGR put a premium on “defending men” and a man’s rep than they do protecting women.

    Society should stop sexualizing everything and everyone, especially women.

  116. okrapod wrote:

    I understand that. That however does not negate all these accusations about people who experienced something entirely different from your experience.

    Women have jobs in our society. BGR limits them unfairly.

    I’ve held jobs where I worked with men, and none of us had sex with each other.

    Men need to learn to work with women.

    Reality is what it is. We’re not reverting back to June Cleaver Time when all women stayed home, married, had kids.

  117. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I guess what shocks me the most is not so much the initial story, but the reaction. There are some supporters of Roy Moore who have flatly said they would vote for a pedophile before they voted for the other candidate. Sorry, that’s cultic. That’s NUTS. You’d vote for someone who has sexual desires for children (and maybe has acted upon them) before you’d even consider the other candidate? Some things should just be beyond the pale.

    Just so you’ll know, if it reassures you at all-

    I am a former Republican, am still a right winger, but I do not support pedos, whether they have an R, D, or ‘I’ after their names, or whatever political affiliation.

    There are times when Democrats overlook Dem politicians known for sexual assault, so it happens on both sides.

  118. Ken G wrote:

    Waiting 40 years and four weeks before an election raises a red flag.

    Not necessarily.

    (I’m a right winger, btw. I am not a fan of the Democratic Party, so there is my political cred for you. I don’t have a political axe to grind in this.)

    Victims of sexual abuse) have all sorts of legitimate reasons why they may wait until many years to step forward to discuss it – feelings of shame, fear.

    Maybe the current “Harvey Weinstein” climate helped embolden these victims to come forward now.

    If you look at the Weistein scandal, many actresses (and some actors) were terrified to speak up publicly until after that scandal broke open a couple of months ago.

    Then, they felt there was safety in numbers, victims were being believed-

    So not only did Weinsten victims go public in droves, but it opened a flood gate where other vics of other Hollywood producers / actors are stepping forward too, to claim actors and producers such as Kevin Spacey, Charlie Sheen, Richard Dreyfuss, Dustin Hoffman, etc. etc. are sexual predators or harassers.

    Male victims such as actor Terry Crews (who is physically a huge, muscular dude!!) got the courage to finally publicize his assault by a male Hollywood employee, due in part to seeing all the Weinstein coverage, and all the other victims come forward on twitter to talk about THEIR assaults.

    Last I heard, Crews even reported his groper to the L.A. police.

    People may have any number of good or understandable reasons why they wait until they do.

    In a way, isn’t it good that voters in Alabama are learning about this stuff now?
    Wouldn’t you want to know that the dude you are considering voting for is allegedly known for molesting kids?

  119. @ Ken G:
    I listened to the guy’s interview the other day with Hannity and read a transcript of it the other day, as well. Based on what I remember, here are some of my impressions:

    Really, the only correct answer to,
    “as an adult, when you were 30 years old, did you ‘date’ kids under the age of 19?,”
    is, “Hell no!”

    But we did not get a clear cut “hell no!!” from this guy, but waffle wording, which makes me uneasy.

    Also, Hannity worded things weird- don’t just stop at “date,” ask things like, “did you kiss, fondle, grope, have sex with…” etc…

    Moore sounded too weasel-like in his replies.

  120. I am retracting my comment that the washington post probably did this story and released it for political reasons. (Well since i cant access the wa post i am still not sure about the timing of the release) cnn interviewed beth reinhard of the washington post and asked why the accusers spoke up and if it was politically motivated. http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2017/11/09/lead-beth-reinhard-live-sexual-harrassment-roy-moore-alabama-senate-jake-tapper.cnn
    The reporter said they had a reporter doing a story on Roy Moore’s supporters and rumors emerged about him and then they sent 2 reporters to investigate the rumors and that none of the 4 women had sought the wa post out but instead the wa post sought them out. Reinhard said the women were at first reluctant to speak publicly but because of the high office he was seeking and the hipocrisy they said they kept hearing from him they agreed to speak publicly, and that he was famous as the 10 commandments judge but liked to pick up young girls at the mall. In the video on cnn you can see a picture of Moore addressing the FRC Action board. Reinhard also said the statue of limitations was long since expired and the women never brought up anything about charging him.
    Seems like the wa post just stumbled into the story according to them.

  121. I dont speak christianese and am wondering if FRC stands for Family Research Council? I noticed that a certain Joe Carter has on his resume ‘Former Director of Internet Communications at Family Research Council’ and thats the only time i have seen a name that could match that acronym FRC so i thought i would ask.

  122. The Washington Post article says that none of the older girls accused him of any sexual behavior with them. None. They said that either he asked them for a date or else they had a few dates with him. No sexual encounters were involved, according to the women.

    Makes one wonder what happened to the story after that. And why it happened.

  123. @ Dee sorry bout getting into the political aspect, you have a great point. It is difficult since Roy Moore keeps bringing his religion into his politics (his brother said Roy was being persecuted just like Jesus) Still i can see how this could totally get into a political debate and i will be more careful with my posts.

  124. @ okrapod:

    The older women are not claiming abuse. I think they may be implying that his behavior was just weird. The younger woman, who is now 53, said that she did not go to the newspaper, but the newspaper sought her. She didn’t report this sooner because she has been divorced three times and has some financial problems which she believes would cause her to lose credibility.

  125. Daisy wrote:

    I am not a fan of the Democratic Party, so there is my political cred for you.

    By the way, before 1992 Roy Moore ran for political office as a Democrat and then switched to Republican in 1992.

  126. okrapod wrote:

    I must be missing something about the allegations.

    What sort of abuse are the older girls claiming? I do know one mentioned that he ‘supplied’ her with alcohol and she was underage, but it is not clear what supplied means. But are any of them claiming assault of any sort? I read one place where no sexual intercourse has been claimed by any of the older girls. If he was having sex with them this would be immoral but not illegal after the age of 16. So what exactly is the claimed abuse of these older ones?

    Sorry it took awhile to find a link to the allegations that isnt subscription only. PBS newshour interviewed the wa post reporter and this has the exact allegations:

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/report-that-roy-moore-had-sexual-contact-with-a-teen-raises-questions-about-his-senate-run

  127. sandy c wrote:
    Also people forget that there was no protection for victims if their boss fired them for daring to speak up!

    And in previous decades, children – and adults even – did not have the words. Younger folk forget that. My mother would never have even said ‘breast cancer’. She’d have whispered ‘cancer’ with a vague gesture to her upper torso. As a young teacher, I went on a Child Protection course and was so pleased and relieved to be told that if a child reported abuse to me, I was to reply, ‘It’s never OK for anyone to touch you on the parts of your body that are covered by your bathing suit’. Now I had clear and appropriate words to use. As I wrote in an earlier comment, the abused are impacted by the trauma for decades. We now know that, so hope Moore’s alledged victims are able to make victim impact statements – they would be in the UK, not sure about the US.

  128. ___

    “Unreported Abuse?” (corrected copy)

    hmmm…

    It is common knowledge that Reverend Joe Carter, a pastor of Grace Hill Church, in Herndon, Virginia, and his TGC Calvinist associates continue to this day to cover up for SGC Right Reverend C.J. Mahaney whose documented heinous POD/PDI/SGM in-house policy resulted in the unreported abuse of children and minors for over thirty years, Maryland State statute of limitations not withstanding. Note: Mahaney was never accused of sexual misconduct himself.

    In retrospect, in 2007, Nate Morales told Reverend Grant Layman he sexually abused boys at SGM Covenant Life Church.  Layman testified under oath that he shared this information with the “pastoral team” at CLC.  He further testified that he had a responsibility to report these crimes but didn’t do it.  Upon reception of this information, the “pastoral team” discussed how they should handle the situation and what they should do with the information.  Like Laymen, they did nothing.  None of the pastors reported the acknowledgment of sex crimes by Morales to the police.  That is ever so serious.  Layman also testified at the trial that he knew about Morales’ sexual abuse all the way back in 1992.  Layman also testified under oath at the trial that so did other pastors like C.J. Mahaney, Robin Boisvert and Chris Glass who knew as well.  “Handling the Nate Morales issue” is a reference to “the events related to 2007” when Nate Morales told Grant Layman he was a sex abuser and Layman conveyed this information to Pastors Harris, Maresco, Megorden, Boisvert and others.  Once again, the “issue” concerns them NOT reporting Nate Morales crimes to police. 

    In January 2015, Michelle Boorstein, the religion reporter for The Washington Post, wrote an article about Joshua Harris leaving Covenant Life Church for seminary.  During an interview, Harris told her about the policy not to report the sexual abuse of children to law enforcement.  This policy was set by C.J. Mahaney and carried out by his staff.  Here is the relevant excerpt:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/long-an-outsider-popular-evangelical-pastor-heads-for-the-mainstream/2015/01/30/31827364-a881-11e4-a7c2-03d37af98440_story.html
    ___
    http://wjla.com/news/crime/nathaniel-morales-of-covenant-life-church-convicted-of-sexually-abusing-young-boys-103175

    http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/joe-carter-of-the-gospel-coalition-says-detwiler-is-making-u.html/

    😉

    —-

  129. ___

    According to the 2007 sworn Maryland court testimony in question, Reverend Harris and others SGM pastors declined to report sexual abuse to the police because they were afraid of lawsuits…

    ;-(

    – –

  130. According to a major class-action civil lawsuit filed against this Church and its parent para-Church organization, in a sworn testimony, its leaders used 501(c)3 non-profit Church funds to help Church members accused of sexual abuse evade the criminal justice system.  SGM tithe dollars helped this Church pay lawyers to assist credibly accused child molesters in evading the law and possibly continuing to abuse children, because the members and leaders of this Church were afraid of lawsuits respecting sexual abuse. 

     🙁

    – –

  131. ___

    “Obstruction Of Justice?”

    hmmm…

    According to Maryland SGM lawsuit documents, Church leaders and some of their prominent members threatened to excommunicate kids/their families if they reported the alleged and/or now proven (through criminal convictions) sexual abuse, in question, to the police.

    ;-(

    – –

  132. ___

    The documented sex abuse problems occurred while the SGM churches were under senior pastor C.J. Mahoney’s leadership, and when questions about Reverend Mahaney’s integrity, previous actions, and former leadership arose, it is documented that Revenand Mahaney left the SGM flagship church rather than answer those questions.

    ;-(

    – –

  133. Matilda wrote:

    We now know that, so hope Moore’s alledged victims are able to make victim impact statements – they would be in the UK, not sure about the US.

    The older girls are not claiming to have been victims. They say that they either dated him for a few dates or else that he asked for a date and they did not go out with him. They are saying that they were past the age of consent at the time. If they are telling the truth then Moore’s behavior can be seen as inappropriate and even tacky (a good ole southern word) but not either immoral or illegal. And the girls should not be labeled as victims.

    This was clear in the original Washington Post article.

    It is also clear in the admission from the then DAs office that they knew he was dating older teens and did nothing, which they would surely have had to do had they evidence of illegal behavior especially since he was an ADA at the time. If they deliberately failed to investigate and prosecute when they suspected or knew laws were being broken then surely they would not be telling that to the press at this time.

    People are seeing what they want to see in this situation, apparently for either political or religious reasons.

    There is one alleged victim. Her allegations should be taken very seriously.

  134. @ sandy c:
    I have noticed a pattern over the years. White People like Carter and others who pontificate about race are usually those who are pretty much removed from it (except colleagues in their socio economic class) in terms of daily interaction, in and out of different neighborhoods, etc. It’s why I laugh when liberals call me nefarious names because I believe in individualism and not the collective group identity junk. That thinking is fatal.

    Joe Carter doesn’t have a clue. ERLC. Russ Moors. All frauds. All they want is camera time and money to promote themselves as “thought leaders”. We are supposed to forget what they taught, defended and promoted just a few years ago. They rebranded!

  135. Daisy wrote:

    I pretty much oppose the Billy Graham Rule because it’s sexist. Treats women like sex objects. Limits the opportunities of women in the work place, and so on.

    The solution is not to assume or treat all women like harlots, temptresses or possible law suits, but to teach men to keep their pants zipped up.

    Consider the opposite perspective…perhaps the BGR identifies the male as someone who can’t control his sexual urges…in other words, he is weak in the area of self-control. So it’s not necessarily her attire that’s the problem, but his pants/zipper and he’s pretty much admitting it when he announces his BGR practice in his life.

  136. Victorious wrote:

    Consider the opposite perspective…perhaps the BGR identifies the male as someone who can’t control his sexual urges…in other words, he is weak in the area of self-control. So it’s not necessarily her attire that’s the problem, but his pants/zipper and he’s pretty much admitting it when he announces his BGR practice in his life.

    Yep. Then there is the matter of living in a culture which has gone bonkers in thinking that everybody is a potential perp or else a potential victim, and there is always somebody ready to say that they saw him and her at the same time so there must be hanky and panky going on. Even if there is not.

  137. sandy c wrote:

    I am wondering how it happened.

    There are three types of people in the world: (1) those who plan to make things happen, (2) those who make things happen, and (3) those who wonder “What happened?!”

    Southern Baptist New Calvinists fall in the first two categories … they planned and schemed and executed their takeover of America’s largest non-Calvinist denomination well. They truly believe they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the “gospel” that the SBC lost (gospel = Calvinism to them) … and they have had the passion to pull it off.

    Southern Baptists of traditional non-Calvinist belief and practice (they number in the millions) have been uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant as they surrendered their denomination to the new reformation without much of a challenge. It has been one of the darnedest things I’ve ever witnessed in my long life, as the SBC masses wonder “What happened?!”

    I lay the primary blame at the feet of 45,000+ traditional SBC pastors who have not had “family talks” with their congregations about the theological shift taking place in their denomination. The “whosoever will may come” message of Southern Baptists for the past 150 years is slipping away as a new generation of preachers take over. SBC’s torch of evangelism to ALL people is being extinguished as reformed theology becomes the SBC default in belief and practice.

    What happened?! Complacency in the pulpit and pew.

  138. Victorious wrote:

    the male as someone who can’t control his sexual urges…in other words, he is weak in the area of self-control

    Or his anger since the battered wife must hang in there and endure.

  139. sandy c wrote:

    JYJames wrote:
    LA Times By KATHRYN BRIGHTBILL NOV 10, 2017 Op-ed
    “Roy Moore’s alleged pursuit of a young girl is the symptom of a larger problem in evangelical circles”
    http://beta.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-brightbill-roy-moore-evangelical-culture-20171110-story.html
    Very spot-on article!

    Evangelical culture intersects with Hollywood and Political Limelight. Who would have guessed that Moore, Weinstein, Piper, Wilson et al, would end up at the center intersection of the Venn Diagram. Common thread: My Way or the Highway?

  140. Just a reminder, we have decided not to discuss politics on this blog. If you decide you can’t stand us, we want your decision to be based on our stand on abuse and other religious matters. One comment not approved.

  141. Lydia wrote:

    It’s why I laugh when liberals call me nefarious names because I believe in individualism and not the collective group identity junk. That thinking is fatal.

    Join the club Lyds. Free thinkers get lambasted on both sides of aisles.

  142. JYJames wrote:

    Evangelical culture intersects with Hollywood and Political Limelight.

    “Christians” have become such an entertaining bunch in the 21st century! You can find them scantily clothed in Hollywood claiming Christ … strutting their stuff under spotlights in churches … and quoting Bible passages during political campaigns.

    Jesus said “It is not everyone who keeps saying to me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but the man who actually does my Heavenly Father’s will.” Matthew 7 has a lot to say in this regard … Jesus reminds us that who they ‘are’ is the main thing, not what they say. Don’t be impressed by charisma; look for character.

  143. @ Max:

    Yep, there is some questionable stuff that goes on. No doubt about that. However, I am leaning toward thinking that evangelicals just might be doing something right or else why are they so upsetting to ‘the world’? Reference biblical statements including from Jesus which you know as well as I do. Goodness knows ‘the world’ tolerates just oceans of stuff under the ideas of freedom and individuality and personal choice and cultural differences. So why this chicken yard pecking order that puts evangelicals on or at least near the bottom even on stuff that appears to harm no one?

    I feel myself sliding toward a more tolerant opinion of evangelicals the more opposition I hear against them.

  144. dee wrote:

    Just a reminder: TWW wishes to stay away from politics

    Filtering out ingredients not tainted by politics in the Weinstein and Moore stories leaves pretty thin gruel. The Weinstein story revealed as much about what was already known by news organizations and suppressed by same as it did about about Weinstein. The reason why allegations were likely suppressed and ignored bears a strong resemblance to Mohler’s and Carter’s overlooking Mahaney’s transgressions. In the case with Carter and Mohler it may not be related to government but it is still about “politics”.

  145. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    it was actual Birmingham

    I.e., the last syllable is pronounced m, not hairm.

    I believe the correct pronunciation is “hah-yam,” with the sliding dipthong, thus: “BUR-ming-HAEH-yam”

    But if you start talking about English vs. Alabaman football, I’m afraid things will get ugly…

  146. @ dee:
    Relief from the divisive Us-Them deal of labels. Yes.

    Paramount: the safety, dignity, and integrity of the person.

    Thank you, TWW.

  147. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Please listen to Sean Hannity’s interview with Roy Moore.

    People are going to hear what they want to hear from this interview. I think the only thing it really proves is that he is a good politician (using ‘good’ in the very worst sense of the word)

    In the words of the author who wrote the book that my pseudonym is NOT based upon:

    “The word “good” has many meanings. For example, if a man were to shoot his grandmother at a range of five hundred yards, I should call him a good shot, but not necessarily a good man.”

  148. Daisy wrote:

    Maybe the current “Harvey Weinstein” climate helped embolden these victims to come forward now.
    If you look at the Weistein scandal, many actresses (and some actors) were terrified to speak up publicly until after that scandal broke open a couple of months ago.
    Then, they felt there was safety in numbers, victims were being believed-

    A lot similarities to what has been previously discussed here regarding certain Christian groups if you consider Hollywood as closed a community as some religious persuasions. I read a book by Margaret Singer , “Cults Among Us”. The book was written in the nineties but expanded the cult mindset of control and obedience to such varied groups as Diet Cults, Corporate Cults – not just religious groups. You could probably toss abusive families on that pile as well.
    Hopefully that empowerment will unleash a massive correction to the status quo. Abuse is not ok in any shape or form.
    It’s time for our society to have the hard conversations that hopefully will lead to greater awareness.

    But I think it will make things harder for those who are deep into the patriarchal religious groups (Christian or otherwise). I would not be surprised if these groups (9 Marks, IFB, Driscollites and Piperites and other such ites) will become even more Draconian in their enforcement of patriarchal doctrines.

    It will not be an easy time for the women and children trapped behind the theological barbed wire so to speak.

  149. Daisy wrote:

    (I’m a right winger, btw. I am not a fan of the Democratic Party, so there is my political cred for you. I don’t have a political axe to grind in this.)

    I am left of centre and would define myself as liberal, and I completely agree with Daisy’s assertions- so I don’t quite get why this needs to be even stated. This has come up a couple of times in this thread. Maybe it’s a cultural thing but does standing up against abuse somehow label one in the states?

  150. Daisy wrote:

    Maybe the current “Harvey Weinstein” climate helped embolden these victims to come forward now.

    You have a good point, but there are some differences. As far as I can tell there is only one potential Moore victim that has been identified, not multiple victims. The “age of consent” teenagers have not claimed that he abused them and they have not identified themselves as having been victimized by him. In the Weinstein case there are many actresses describing very similar cases of abuse. Enough to clearly establish a pattern. And there are non-victims confirming the victims’ stories, or at least confirming that these allegations are consistent with what they know about Weinstein. If the current allegations against Moore are true I would expect more stories from victims (and non-victims) to come out because it is extremely unlikely that he only did this once (if in fact he did it). One thing odd about this is Moore has been a political lightening rod for 40 years. He has been through many heated elections and controversies where this new information would have been very useful. That fact that it never came up before does not prove anything, but it is still a data point because this would have been such good ammo to use against him in the last few years.

    I don’t know if Moore is guilty. I hope that he is not because if he is then it likely means multiple victims (who would ever hope for more victims?). If he is guilty, people in the know should tell what they know ASAP in order to confirm the allegations before the election. Right now it is a he-said-she-said story that has potentially huge political ramifications.

  151. sandy c wrote:

    @ Jamie Carter:
    Im not even going to waste my time reading that.

    They talk about a lot of things. They link to a news story that says:

    “When it comes to child marriage laws, the U.S. in comparable to countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen, Reiss said. Her organization is lobbying legislators across the country to restrict marriage to those 18 and older.” – https://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-marriage-in-the-u-s-surprisingly-widespread/

    They mention Marantha and Matthew Chapman being married at 15 and 27 years age, respectively. How their courtship is often told in homeschooling circles as an ideal example of a godly match. And They link to another story where Marantha’s daughter Lauren marries when she’s 16 to a guy that was 26. (The minimum age for marriage laws had changed to 16 because of the FLDS church practicing polygamy in Texas – they wanted to restrict how much they could get away with by changing the marriage age.)

    They talk about the Christian homeschooling block / quiverfull crowd who really believe in the mandate to out-breed their enemies, and establish their sons and daughters in positions of power (politics) in order to take control of our nation’s future and ensure it’s a christian one.

    They talk about Gothard, IBLP, Duck Dynasty, Don Wilson – they cover a lot of topics and connect a lot of dots.

  152. Jack wrote:

    This has come up a couple of times in this thread. Maybe it’s a cultural thing but does standing up against abuse somehow label one in the states?

    No, not exactly, but there are definite differences of opinion as to what constitutes abuse and what the best way to deal with it is. This is partly cultural and partly political and partly more but I am not sure what.

    I have an illustration or two, not one of which is the whole answer.

    For a start you might want to google the word ‘snowflake’ and then pursue the ideas where they take you. That is a lot about post-secondary education and the way some people are acting. The word ‘fragile’ comes to mind.

    As opposed to the snowflake mentality there is the girls’ softball mentality which at least at CertainSchool is part competitive sport and part the opportunity to learn and practice what the coach says-a lot- ‘toughen up, buttercup’.

    Now take those different approaches and apply the ‘feel’ of each to various situations and I think you will get the picture. Example: I heard a well known and well respected female member of a husband and wife team of Baptist relationship speakers maybe 15 years ago say that women need to quit denying their husbands sexual access, because ‘so what if some dirty old man ran his hand up your skirt when you were a teen’, don’t let that ruin your marriage. Now this is diametrically opposite from the approach of you poor victim, now your life is forever ruined, how dare anybody think differently.

    So, yes we think abuse needs stopped and needs dealt with, but we do not agree on the definition of abuse or necessarily on the approach to abuse, depending of course on what the thing is that is being called abuse and the individual circumstances.

    At the same time we are a highly diverse population, and what looks like abuse in one subculture may not seem abusive in another subculture. There is a heavy emphasis on acceptance of cultural diversity. There are even those who think that ‘cutting’, some would say limited ‘cutting’, should be legal because-cultural and religious diversity.

  153. My dad seriously just tried to pull the Hannity “it’s rare” argument on me, knowing full well I was sexually assaulted not two years ago. I am furious.

  154. sandy c wrote:

    Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler, a Republican, dismissed the charges brought forth in a Washington Post article about Moore Thursday, telling The Washington Examiner that the relationship would be akin to that of Joseph and Mary.

    “Take the Bible: Zachariah and Elizabeth for instance,” Zeigler said. “Zachariah was extremely old to marry Elizabeth and they became the parents of John the Baptist. Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

    http://www.good4utah.com/news/politics/alabama-state-official-invokes-joseph-and-mary-to-defend-roy-moore/855090622

    Read that statement again, substituting “Mohammed (pbuh)” for “Joseph”, “Aisha” for “Mary”, and “nine-year-old” for “teenager”. Sounds Talibani, doesn’t it?

    (Note: modern Muslim scholars say that while Aisha was traditionally married off at nine, she was more likely actually in her mid-to-late teens, nine still being below age of majority in Arab tribal culture of the time. The “age nine” may have been when the marriage was arranged.)

  155. Max wrote:

    Southern Baptist New Calvinists fall in the first two categories … they planned and schemed and executed their takeover of America’s largest non-Calvinist denomination well.

    “Today the SBC, TOMORROW THE WORLD!”

  156. Daisy wrote:

    I pretty much oppose the Billy Graham Rule because it’s sexist. Treats women like sex objects. Limits the opportunities of women in the work place, and so on.

    As I said last time the subject came up here, the BGR does make sense for a public figure who may have enemies seeking any way to discredit him. This is a very limited scope, except for people who are Important Public Figures Surrounded by Enemies in their own mind and nowhere else.

  157. sandy c wrote:

    I saw a woman (on ccn i believe)actually say she would still vote for him! Because, she said, God has already forgiven him and he is still better than a democrat!!

    God: Wholly-owned subsidiary of the GOP.

  158. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I can tell you who would be believed, and that would be the ADA. We all grew up knowing who had the power and Roy Moore was in that group.

    Along with all the other Boss Hoggs.

  159. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I guess what shocks me the most is not so much the initial story, but the reaction. There are some supporters of Roy Moore who have flatly said they would vote for a pedophile before they voted for the other candidate.

    Party First, Comrade.

  160. okrapod wrote:

    evangelicals just might be doing something right or else why are they so upsetting to ‘the world’?

    Agreed. For all the fake ones trying to get elected or their hand in your wallet, there are genuine evangelicals standing their ground in Jesus’ name.

  161. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (Note: modern Muslim scholars say that while Aisha was traditionally married off at nine, she was more likely actually in her mid-to-late teens, nine still being below age of majority in Arab tribal culture of the time. The “age nine” may have been when the marriage was arranged.)

    Everything I’ve read said the marriage happened when she was six and consummated when she was nine. He was 54. She was the daughter of Muhammad’s best friend, who became the first caliph. I am guessing that the modern scholars might be revising history. I’ve read fatwas that say nine is ok because of the precedent that was set with Aisha.

  162. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Party First, Comrade.

    An oversimplification, it is more like real politik. I find supporters on both sides give lip service to candidate’s personal mores but end up voting policy. In other words, my guy’s a schmuck but his policies aren’t as bad as your guy. It is so common that I question it when someone claims they are shocked when confronted by such an admission, especially when they may make the same calculation themselves. For the record I try to adhere to some semblance of consistency but it has become more difficult of late.

  163. It’s tough to go against one’s own interests. Mohler and Dever and the other Glitterati will never speak against Mahaney because Mahaney made the Gospel Glitterati into the Gospel Glitterati, IMO. He did not have the substance, but he knew how to put together the road shows and the franchise businesses. Without the Gospel Glitterati, Joe Carter, Challies, and the others are just pastors of churches. Boring. They know they are more important than that. Jonathan Leeman wouldn’t get to crow about exercising the Keys of the Kingdom and all that jazz. Kevin DeYoung might have time to visit the sick in the hospital. Joe Carter wouldn’t have to think up 9 things he thinks everyone needs to know about everything. They don’t want to wash feet. That’s the kind of stuff Jesus did back then. They’re cool and important.

  164. JYJames wrote:

    Evangelical culture intersects with Hollywood and Political Limelight. Who would have guessed that Moore, Weinstein, Piper, Wilson et al, would end up at the center intersection of the Venn Diagram. Common thread: My Way or the Highway?

    All day long are stories today in mainstream media asking Al Mohlers opinion on everything from the tragedy in the Texas church to the Roy Moore thing. They all are interviewing the head of the sbc Al

  165. Kevin DeYoung might have time to visit the sick in the hospital. Joe Carter wouldn’t have to think up 9 things he thinks everyone needs to know about everything. They don’t want to wash feet. That’s the kind of stuff Jesus did back then. They’re cool and important.”
    i noticed Joe has gone beyond what they should know into “what they should think about” i think christians have to start getting back to the basics and stop looking at the “cool and important” and start looking at things like you do: ‘is this what Jesus does?’ thanks for your post

  166. JYJames wrote:

    LA Times By KATHRYN BRIGHTBILL NOV 10, 2017 Op-ed

    Also from the article:

    “Much of the sexual abuse that takes place in Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, or IFB, churches involves adult men targeting 14- to 16-year-old girls. If caught, the teenage victim may be forced to repent the ‘sin’ of having seduced an adult man. Former IFB megachurch pastor Jack Schaap argued that he should be released from prison after being convicted of molesting a 16-year-old girl, asserting that the ‘aggressiveness’ of his victim ‘inhibited [his] impulse control.’ In the wake of the Schaap case, numerous other stories emerged of sexual abuse cover-ups involving teenage girls at IFB churches. In another high-profile case, pregnant 15-year-old Tina Anderson, who was raped by a church deacon twice her age, was forced to confess her ‘sin’ to the congregation.”

  167. The Alabama situation is messy in many ways, and that’s probably going to get me in trouble here, speaking of going against the grain. We are in the midst of a moral panic about sexual abuse — including child sexual abuse — and we are also in the midst of an unprecedented political national mental breakdown. So the midst of a must-win Senate special election campaign is probably not the best time to figure out what happened or did not happen between a young teen girl and a 30-something man 40 years ago. This just has trouble written all over it if the main concern is truth and justice and the protection of children.

    That is what concerns TWW, but I am certain that is not what concerns the WaPo which could have published this story when voters in the Republican primary would have this knowledge. That would have been responsible journalism which is now nearly an oxymoron. It is hard to deny that it is a journalistic hit piece by the WaPo which is scandalous because it detracts from the very real possibility that the story is true. No matter whether the story is true or false, the fact of its timing is scandalous.

    Moral panics are tricky. On one hand, victims feel empowered to speak. On the other hand, fatigue sets in, and people become weary and the definitions of abuse become blurred and expanded and less well-defined. The #metoo expansion has been remarked upon elsewhere. That said, this story is icky, as even the Judge said. Every person then needs to decide separately whether it is credible, and it is tough to do that fairly and justly with such limited information, IMO. Some dismiss her with the nuts and sluts slander. Others believe her because Victim. It is unavoidable that her story is in the context of politics, so she will be viewed as a political pawn, which further muddies the issue. In other words, her story would have been much more powerful and credible to more people outside the context of a campaign, especially one which is so nationally important. That’s going to raise hackles, but I think it’s just the truth.

    Likewise, with the Judge, his interview with Hannity was shaky and inconsistent at points, IMO. That may be because he was being dishonest. Or it may be because he was emotional and confused and outraged and speaking whatever came to mind. It wasn’t a prepared statement by his attorney. People see what they expect to see. If you expect to see a pedo, then you see a pedo who got caught. If you expect to see a guy who is falsely accused, then you see a guy who is falsely accused after 40 years and is outraged. IMO, a good mental exercise is to role-play the opposite character. If you can’t do that, then that’s a big problem. Clearly he prefers much younger females. No way would he “date” a daughter of mine who was 18 years younger or whatever. But I know some folks who thought differently and did fine.

    Here’s the problem for those of you all who are against all forms of the Billy Graham Rule. This is how you get the Billy Graham Rule. If, in fact, this is a false accusation and the accuser must be believed, then there is no defense except absolute prevention. It isn’t the fault of the institution or the individual for managing risk.

    My takeaway is that the Alabama election law needs to be fixed soon because the laws as they are written have been gamed, and that is unfair to the voters of Alabama. Somehow there should be flexibility written into the procedure to preserve an orderly election with as few distractions as possible.

  168. okrapod wrote:

    When my mother was 19 she began dating my father who was 15 years older than she was.

    Yes, but there is a huge difference between 16 and 19. I don’t know what the age of majority was in the US at that time, but at 19 nowadays you are no longer a minor, you have been an adult for all legal purposes for a year. You can make all decisions concerning your life.

    If any of my kids had had a BF/GF at 14, I wouldn’t exactly have been very happy and would have tried to set explicit limits on what they should/shouldn’t do and explained these limits to them.

    If a thirty-two year-old had come courting my 16- or 17-year-old daughter, I would have got a doberman (and a gun, maybe, even if I hate guns).

    What kind of 30yo man is interested in basically kids less than half his age? And the important point here is “kids”. The age difference becomes less important when the younger partner becomes older.

    32 and 16 – gross. 38 and 22 – less so.

    I think the point here is that someone who goes after 16yo girls at age 32 does not really want a partner, an equal. Maybe because they are afraid that they will never be able to be an equal to an adult woman themselves.

    Complementarianism and related ideas becomes so much easier if the woman is a child.

  169. GMFS

    ION: I sustained a slightly scratched cornea yesterday in a freak willow-tree attack. Specifically, I was edging the lawn right under the willow-tree in blustery conditions when a sudden gust caught one of the many trailing strands and it hit me in the eye.

    The lesson: when working around a willow tree in windy conditions, always wear eye protection.

    IHTIH

  170. If you all are interested in objective statistics about adolescent sexual activity may I suggest the web site of the Guttmacher Institute. They give stats for the 15-19 age group and for the 14 and under age group, which is helpful in the current discussion. I do not think that opinion pieces, or pieces that target certain religious or ethnic groups give the full picture of the issue. Guttmacher is better but does not answer all the questions.

  171. okrapod wrote:

    Ouch! Sorry about that.

    That’s OK – it wasn’t your fault! I finished that bit of lawn this morning anyway, as it’s very still outside today.

    ishy wrote:

    Oh no, Nick! I hope it gets better fast!

    Thanks – it was a very small scratch, fortunately, and it’s already on the mend. I had a worse one years ago when my son caught my eye with his fingernail. (It wasn’t his fault – he was only 9 months old.) Really sore, though. I remember the exact place on the road, driving back fae the hospital, where the local anaesthetic abruptly wore off..!

  172. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    I am not from Alabama

    I am not from Alabama even more.

    I did grow up near Birmingham, but it was actual Birmingham.

    Haha I too also grew up near(ish) actual Beeh-ming-m.

  173. I no longer trust male evangelical leaders or male conservative politicians.

    If they don’t abuse people, they defend those who do.

  174. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Really sore, though. I remember the exact place on the road, driving back fae the hospital, where the local anaesthetic abruptly wore off..!

    If it happens again ask them for a topical pain relief med to take home with you. I am not an authority on the subject, but a couple of years ago when I had cataract surgery (under local this time) they sent me home with a topical med for pain. It is worth inquiring about anyhow.

  175. Liz wrote:

    Haha I too also grew up near(ish) actual Beeh-ming-m.

    Och, aye? Whereabouts *? I lived in Sutton Coldfield.

    * This is pronounced “furryboots” north of The Border, of course.

  176. @ okrapod:

    That makes sense; they did send me home with an antibiotic cream; you never know where your baby son’s fingernails have been, after all. But apart from that, they suggested ibuprofen (or “iburp-u-fen” as my daughter used to call it); on a scale of 1 to 10, it was completely useless.

    But I think surgery trumps a scratch any day, so your need was greater than mine!

  177. Ok I’m posting one last place. I’m not sure how often the other places are checked Dee…. : )

    Hi Dee,

    It’s ok to take down the GOFUNDME!!!

    I have been working and I’m not sure if you got my email awhile ago letting you know that Billy and I will be ok. I want to thank everyone who have seen us through the most difficult time in our lives and I know we still have a long road ahead coping at times. Please know he is doing pretty good and although we may struggle God has completely carried us and has provided. I don’t have words to express my gratitude for the support we have had since we met you and Deb. The Christians here have shown more love and compassion than we received after it all happened. I don’t say this to put down some of those at our former church because I have come to realize a lot of the members were given false information and were lied to. How could we fault them for not knowing? There were some who stood by us and also took some of the heat for standing up for us. All this to say is we are so grateful for this blog and the church community here. All of you kept my faith strong as I saw God use you to care for us. I happy to report that God is opening doors for us that I never dreamed.

    Please pray for us as I move into this position that I am a blessing to those who trust me to do the job and that we are able to build life long relationships. So far the people whom we have had the privilege to meet are amazing and have been incredibly kind to my son. They seem to be very fond of him and that makes me so happy. They are thoughtful people and when considering me Billy is included always. What more could a mother ask for from anyone?

    Thank you
    shauna & Billy

  178. Gus wrote:

    What kind of 30yo man is interested in basically kids less than half his age?

    Given what’s been covered on this blog for years, A ManaGAWD!

  179. Tina wrote:

    I no longer trust male evangelical leaders or male conservative politicians.

    If they don’t abuse people, they defend those who do.

    With or without Making Long Prayers for Justification?

  180. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    I’ve read fatwas that say nine is ok because of the precedent that was set with Aisha.

    i.e. It’s SCRIPTURE!

    Again, how does that differ from:
    “Take the Bible: Zachariah and Elizabeth for instance,” Zeigler said. “Zachariah was extremely old to marry Elizabeth and they became the parents of John the Baptist. Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus. There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”
    Gus wrote:

    Complementarianism and related ideas becomes so much easier if the woman is a child.

  181. Not too long ago we were talking about Justin Welby and the C of E and the stuff that was going on in certain organization(s) and school(s) in UK.

    The latest in the secular press is about new directives for C of E church schools in the area of sex/gender diversity and school uniforms and such. It is an interesting read. The issue of what one must teach children in this area to be in sync with UK today is also interesting.

    This comment is for information purposes only. I am not trying to initiate conversation on this issue.

  182. @ Gus:

    Yes, but. You may be missing a couple of things. This was Alabama some 40 years ago.

    Think long standing and long accepted cultural patriarchy in the south, and which even still exists. The equal partner idea you mentioned was not, to my knowledge, the only idea or for that matter the predominant idea of marriage in the south I lived in. I think this is one reason why complementarianism (sp?) has been so easy to sell in SBC circles. It predates neo-cals by a long shot.

    Also think poverty. A youngish ADA would be a prize for any girl to bring home. RE, my daughter, said that there were some girls in her class in high school who sought out men who had already established their own business or were settled in a ‘good job’ and did so at the instigation of their mothers. Let me say this, and I am not trying to be anything but culturally as accurate as possible, the idea of ‘why give it away free to a poor man when you can sell it to a rich man’ is still prevalent. In a poverty ridden area an ADA would have been a good catch, and he could have pretty much had his pick of the pickins.

    I am not a fan of Alabama politics, but it is amazing to me that the older girls all deny that he got sexual with them. I think that was probably due to his religious beliefs, because the patriarchy of the south at the time would not have blamed him if he had, at least not in the part of the south were I have lived the last 50 years. How do I know? The way the law was written in that it would not have been against the law.

    Now about the 14 year old. If he did that then there is no excuse, then or now, north or south, Baptist or heathen infidel. If he did, however, it does not fit the pattern of behavior described by the older girls and that is troubling.

    Other things that he has done trouble me greatly, but that would be politics and I am not discussing politics here; merely cultural expectations and tolerances about male/ female behavior in some stata of our culture.

    As to my mom, she was dirt poor from east Texas, and dad was a lawyer in a big city in KY. Yes, well, imagine that.

  183. What I left off of my book late last night is the personal context for what I wrote. I got an early lesson in child sexual abuse, but it wasn’t as a victim or as a mother, as some of you have experienced. It was as a witness who, along with others, was not believed by those in authority. The case was interesting because the victim was a middle teen who was “willing” and who denied everything, much less that she was being abused. The perp was charming and popular and there were other circumstances which made it difficult to pursue the case at that time. Bottom line is that speaking up did not make me and the other witnesses popular among our peers who admired the perp who they thought was a great guy. Personally that was very difficult to understand. Why would so many adults turn a blind eye? A couple of years later, however, some other young ladies came forward. He was held to account, and his long-standing pattern came to light, including many girls before the girl that I knew. People react in strange ways, and usually see what they want to see which is also what makes them feel the best about themselves.

  184. Gram3 wrote:

    Bottom line is that speaking up did not make me and the other witnesses popular among our peers who admired the perp who they thought was a great guy. Personally that was very difficult to understand. Why would so many adults turn a blind eye?

    Do not totally discount the fact that it is much more acceptable to say ‘I don’t believe it’ than to ‘So what, I don’t really think it is all that bad’.

    I don’t know what it was that was going on, but I do know that what people say is often what it is acceptable to say rather than what they actually think in their hearts, for a lot of reasons.

  185. Gram3 wrote:

    The Alabama situation is messy in many ways, and that’s probably going to get me in trouble here, speaking of going against the grain.

    You’re in good company Gram3. I’m cooking the books as we speak with something that questions and goes against the prevailing grain with this whole Hannity-Moore imbroglio. Potter’s known for that and skates on thin ice periodically here at TWW. Stay tuned.

  186. Injun Joe wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    It’s why I laugh when liberals call me nefarious names because I believe in individualism and not the collective group identity junk. That thinking is fatal.

    Join the club Lyds. Free thinkers get lambasted on both sides of aisles.

    I know! I was astonished the other day to hear independent thinking lambasted from the pulpit!

  187. okrapod wrote:

    @ Max:

    Yep, there is some questionable stuff that goes on. No doubt about that. However, I am leaning toward thinking that evangelicals just might be doing something right or else why are they so upsetting to ‘the world’? Reference biblical statements including from Jesus which you know as well as I do. Goodness knows ‘the world’ tolerates just oceans of stuff under the ideas of freedom and individuality and personal choice and cultural differences. So why this chicken yard pecking order that puts evangelicals on or at least near the bottom even on stuff that appears to harm no one?

    I feel myself sliding toward a more tolerant opinion of evangelicals the more opposition I hear against them.

    Having lived on the “persecuted” side for a couple decades, a few years after leaving it is becoming ever clearer to me how oppressive evangelicals have been/are in insisting their choices become everyone else’s burdens.

  188. Re: shauna’s comment

    Hooray!!!

    Will continue to remember you and Billy in prayer. What an encouraging update.

  189. There seems to be a news conference about a new accuser of Roy Moore. Gloria Allred conference, this afternoon.

  190. Gus wrote:

    I think the point here is that someone who goes after 16yo girls at age 32 does not really want a partner, an equal. Maybe because they are afraid that they will never be able to be an equal to an adult woman themselves.
    Complementarianism and related ideas becomes so much easier if the woman is a child.

    Indeed; complementarian theology, as far as I’ve seen it explained, rests on the tacit assumption that women are, functionally speaking, babies. That’s how they can be “equal in value” whilst treated in every meaningful sense as inferior.

  191. Refugee wrote:

    Having lived on the “persecuted” side for a couple decades, a few years after leaving it is becoming ever clearer to me how oppressive evangelicals have been/are in insisting their choices become everyone else’s burdens.

    Yes, it’s easy to upset people when you sit in constant judgement of them. One of the main reasons I no longer go to church. I was on the fence, it reading the bible with an evangelical eye that pushed me off it.

  192. shauna wrote:

    Ok I’m posting one last place. I’m not sure how often the other places are checked Dee…. : )
    Hi Dee,
    It’s ok to take down the GOFUNDME!!!
    I have been working and I’m not sure if you got my email awhile ago letting you know that Billy and I will be ok. I want to thank everyone who have seen us through the most difficult time in our lives and I know we still have a long road ahead coping at times. Please know he is doing pretty good and although we may struggle God has completely carried us and has provided. I don’t have words to express my gratitude for the support we have had since we met you and Deb. The Christians here have shown more love and compassion than we received after it all happened. I don’t say this to put down some of those at our former church because I have come to realize a lot of the members were given false information and were lied to. How could we fault them for not knowing? There were some who stood by us and also took some of the heat for standing up for us. All this to say is we are so grateful for this blog and the church community here. All of you kept my faith strong as I saw God use you to care for us. I happy to report that God is opening doors for us that I never dreamed.
    Please pray for us as I move into this position that I am a blessing to those who trust me to do the job and that we are able to build life long relationships. So far the people whom we have had the privilege to meet are amazing and have been incredibly kind to my son. They seem to be very fond of him and that makes me so happy. They are thoughtful people and when considering me Billy is included always. What more could a mother ask for from anyone?
    Thank you
    shauna & Billy

    WHEEEEEEE!!!!! What wonderful news!!

  193. okrapod wrote:

    Good analysis. I say amen to everything you wrote.

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Well said and I concur.

    I consider your opinions a good check. Thank you.

    Gloria Allred. As if it were not bad enough Allredy.

  194. Thersites wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    Gloria Allred
    Good grief, I figured she would show up. This doesn’t add credibility.

    What can you say about a lawyer who has her own TV studio?

    And who showed up on South Park, played absolutely straight?
    “No wonder you were on South Park — you ARE a cartoon!”
    — KFI afternoon drive-time, during an unsuccessful interview

  195. Are you sure it has a “g” in it?

    The Man Who Wasn’t Thursday wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    it was actual Birmingham

    I.e., the last syllable is pronounced m, not hairm.

    I believe the correct pronunciation is “hah-yam,” with the sliding dipthong, thus: “BUR-ming-HAEH-yam”

    But if you start talking about English vs. Alabaman football, I’m afraid things will get ugly…

  196. Max wrote:

    evangelical leaders such as John Piper

    Not everyone considers this guy a leader.

    https://timfall.wordpress.com/2017/11/13/the-negative-doctrine-of-biblical-manhood/

    Tim Fall writes:

    “Those concepts, in fact, are entirely absent from the Bible passages Mr. Piper cites. He … sees a doctrine in what is not there.”

    “He uses the absence of information in a few passages to create an entire doctrine on how men and women are to relate to one another.”

  197. okrapod wrote:

    Do not totally discount the fact that it is much more acceptable to say ‘I don’t believe it’ than to ‘So what, I don’t really think it is all that bad’.

    I don’t know what it was that was going on, but I do know that what people say is often what it is acceptable to say rather than what they actually think in their hearts, for a lot of reasons.

    If i remember right, when the story first broke the older girls said they didnt think about it much until they were older and then thought, yes it is odd, a man that much older dating girls as young as they were. Okrapod i think you are right about the norms and view of things 40 yrs ago and now.

  198. sandy c wrote:

    Okrapod i think you are right about the norms and view of things 40 yrs ago and now.

    Let me expound on that topic just a tad more, because I think it is significant beyond the Moore situation.

    I just read an article this morning about how ‘they’ are interviewing some of the people in that town in AL and some are saying that there was a habit of roaming around the mall and checking out the high school girls. People, including mall security, the article is saying allegedly kept an eye on that, and people are saying that all this was common knowledge.

    So, why was nothing done? They thought it was ‘odd’. ‘Odd’. But look, nobody confronted him about it, apparently, nobody thought they had evidence of actual sexual predation, apparently, and they still voted for him. I am assuming that DA was an elected office.

    Sometime we need to talk about what ‘odd’ meant. There was, in my day, and there is still I am thinking, a high tolerance for oddity in the South. Reference the fictional literature written about odd and dysfunctional southern families. They are an identifiable kind of novel. My sister, who is more literary than I, said that if this were the UK people would be using the word ‘eccentric/ eccentricity’. Yep. Sounds right.

    It was said of some, and I am first person reporting here, I heard this sort of talk as a pretty standard approach to some things, ‘He is just like that, but as far as I can tell that is as far as it goes’. Or, from a speaker of the same race but a different stratum of our class structure: “He ain’t kwite rite but he don’t mean no harm by it’. I am not ridiculing anybody here; I am trying to illustrate how extensive across the cultural boundaries this attitude is.

    I believe them when they say people knew whatever it was they knew but thought it was odd and nothing more. Now we will see if indeed it was more than odd and actually pathologic and/or criminal.

  199. @ okrapod:

    While I am on this subject, back when I went to med school the nation was just beginning to plunge into drastic change, but prior to that people thought that for a female to be a doctor was ‘odd’ as in ‘who would want to do that’ and is she (deleted) or what. What is wrong with her, anyhow. But they tolerated it. All except one dean of women at one university who tried to warn me against any such foolishness as the pursuit of medicine as a female. Which was ‘odd’ because she was obviously ‘odd’ herself. As in wink wind odd. So apparently wink wink odd was more tolerated than ‘hen medic’ odd in wink wink circles? Had I been wink wink everybody would have understood and nobody would have cared.

    All of which seems odd in today’s culture. And we wonder why comp and purity culture and such find root in the south rather easily.

    I am not the least surprised in what the people of the town say that they thought and did in the Moore situation.

  200. @ bonnie knox:

    Depends on the region — cities generally keep the “g”, however diminished, and rural accents tend to drop or slur it.

    But in any case, the final vowel is the same as a Southern “am,” “ham,” “ma’am,” etc. as well as long “i” as in “right,” like,” “hike,” etc. (rat, lack, hack, respectively), sometimes adding an extra syllable.

  201. You all might be interested in this news thing on YAHOO dated 11/14/17. ‘When child sex isn’t rape: French to set age of consent’. It appears that they may be going to legally establish some age of consent, apparently something which they have not had before. Some are apparently thinking maybe 15 but 13 has also been suggested.

    Somebody brought up ole Phil’s attitude toward early marriage, and I note the French history in Louisiana and I wonder if there is some connection between the current differences of opinion about age of consent with the different cultural heritages of various areas of the US.

    Just a thought, because law is one thing and pockets of public opinion are another thing.

  202. sandy c wrote:

    Okrapod i think you are right about the norms and view of things 40 yrs ago and now.

    Yes, I hear y’all, but when Moore was 32, that was, wait, 1979, not 1949 or 1959. I’m sure that you know a lot about this, and I practically nothing. But for 1979, this feels VERY odd, even so.

  203. Gus wrote:

    Yes, I hear y’all, but when Moore was 32, that was, wait, 1979, not 1949 or 1959. I’m sure that you know a lot about this, and I practically nothing. But for 1979, this feels VERY odd, even so.

    Of course if is odd and very odd. But if you think this is odd, before then ( before 1979) and then (1979) and now (2017) , then you would have a cardiac arrest if you really understood some aspects of certain sub-cultures here in the US south.

    I and mine have always lived in the south, but we moved from one side of the mountains to the other side and into a rural/ small town setting, and we were stunned at how different it was in some ways from where we had been in an urban setting in an area known as border at the time of the civil war.

    There is no need to opine as to whether the south will rise again; it never completely went away. IMO, one reason this particular case of odd survives is because it/he is ‘one of us’ so to speak. He may be odd but he is our odd. Native southerners will recognize that I have modified the original form of that last sentence to meet this current issue.

    Note also that the opposing party has said they don’t want any outside ‘help’ aka interference because they will handle this themselves. Read: Yankees stay home.

    If you are one of us then we will let you get away with a lot. And if you are anti-PC then you are obviously one of us in some way and may even be a hero. Why let a history of odd spoil all that? That, I think, is part of what is going on.

  204. okrapod wrote:

    Of course if is odd and very odd. But if you think this is odd, before then ( before 1979) and then (1979) and now (2017) , then you would have a cardiac arrest if you really understood some aspects of certain sub-cultures here in the US south.

    I and mine have always lived in the south, but we moved from one side of the mountains to the other side and into a rural/ small town setting, and we were stunned at how different it was in some ways from where we had been in an urban setting in an area known as border at the time of the civil war.

    Just to demonstrate this cultural point, one might even say this whole issue is “si-gogglin”

    To the uninitiated, that means caddywhampus (or caddawhampus, cattywompus, etc.).

    A perfect description of the situation.

  205. sandy c wrote:

    The bible is clear that sexual sin is worse than other sins, flee from fornication…

    There are many who don’t see the alleged clarity in the Bible as you see it.
    And that’s okay too, we don’t all have to be in lockstep formation on everything ‘Biblical’.

  206. Gram3 wrote:

    Gloria Allred. As if it were not bad enough Allredy.

    Allred smells money. And she’s on it like a hound treein’ a coon at full-moon.

  207. okrapod wrote:

    Note also that the opposing party has said they don’t want any outside ‘help’ aka interference because they will handle this themselves. Read: Yankees stay home.

    When Sherman pillaged and burned a swath through Georgia in 1864, it was the only time Americans have ever known what total war means. Is it any wonder that Southerners are still leery of any Yankee help?

  208. Injun Joe wrote:

    When Sherman pillaged and burned a swath through Georgia in 1864, it was the only time Americans have ever known what total war means. Is it any wonder that Southerners are still leery of any Yankee help?

    Yes, and then there was the reconstruction era which was an attempt to obliterate any residuals of the southern culture. I grew up being told that it was a shame that Mr Lincoln did not live, because he wanted to save the union and would not have tried to destroy something to the extent that healing the union would not happen.

    The war was a horror for north and south. Reconstruction was a horror for the south. I doubt that the residuals will ever go away. There is a lot of pride and identity in the south, nobody gives that up if they can help it.

  209. Injun Joe wrote:

    When Sherman pillaged and burned a swath through Georgia in 1864, it was the only time Americans have ever known what total war means.

    I understand singing “Marching Through Georgia” in Atlanta will still get you beaten up.

    (The song was written to celebrate the destruction of Atlanta by Sherman’s forces.)

    And one of Jimmy Carter’s first acts as President was a direct order as Commander-in-Chief to stop the hazing of military academy cadets from Georgia by forcing them to sing “Marching Through Georgia”. He had it done to him numerous times during his time at Annapolis.

  210. Injun Joe wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Gloria Allred. As if it were not bad enough Allredy.

    (ed.) According to the mouthy lawyer who hosts KFI morning drive-time, her reputation in the legal community is that of a total Media (ed *&). Even the ambulance chasers can’t stand her.

  211. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Complementarianism and related ideas becomes so much easier if the woman is a child.
    Indeed; complementarian theology, as far as I’ve seen it explained, rests on the tacit assumption that women are, functionally speaking, babies. That’s how they can be “equal in value” whilst treated in every meaningful sense as inferior.

    I am going to disagree on the teaching of New Cals but not most soft comps, who I do think believe that.

    Many of the New Cal leaders do hint or infer that women are “more easily deceived” and therefore need men to lead them but they are much more blatant about the idea that men can’t be men if they don’t treat women like babies. “God made men to control everything around them and if you as a man aren’t controlling everyone, then you aren’t a real man.” This is evident in Piper’s a woman who gives a man directions is “offending his masculinity”, Doug Wilson’s just awful quote “A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants”, Joe Carter’s attack on women who don’t submit in his Broken Wolves article, pretty much everything Mark Driscoll has ever said, and Mohler who leads them all.

    These men just want to do what they want and say what they want and everybody to be a robot in serving them. That’s not strength, or power, or control. It’s self and sin. I think it takes a great deal more strength to be like Jesus and be merciful and in control of self above all.

  212. If you want to get angry, read the latest from Denny Burk: http://www.dennyburk.com/moral-clarity-and-witness-are-the-priority-not-politics/. All of a sudden the gospel gliteratti are finally agreeing that this stuff is bad. But I have not yet seen them go after any of their own who appeared to have tolerated abuse in their midst (e.g. Doug Wilson and CJ Mahaney who had people under them who are now in prison). This quote by Mohler is particularly rich in light of how Mohler introduced Mahaney at the last T4G conference:

    We also understand a particular responsibility to defend the defenseless and to speak up for those who need that defense, and we must make very clear that predatory sexual behavior, especially predatory sexual behavior addressed to a child, to a minor, is absolutely heinous, reprehensible, and cannot be accepted by any morally sane society. Even in our sexually confused age, we should be thankful for the fact that there is at least enough residual moral sense in the American people that they understand that any contact by an adult male with a minor female, or for that matter you could even change the genders, it’s absolutely wrong, immoral, and unacceptable. So we should at least state that about the charges right up front: If indeed the allegations are true, they are genuinely, morally devastating and they should be politically devastating as well.

    When will the T4G “leaders: finally address the Mahaney scandal?

  213. okrapod wrote:

    It appears that they may be going to legally establish some age of consent, apparently something which they have not had before. Some are apparently thinking maybe 15 but 13 has also been suggested.

    A few months after the influx of muslim immigrants into Germany (which i support) German authorities found that many of the immigrants had 12-13 yr old wives. This came to light because when Germany did this refugee reseltment on humanitarian reasons, people watching the news brought up ‘why are mostly adult men and children, refugees, where are the mothers?’ The german government had to investigate and found alot of men had indeed listed 12-13 yr olds as their wives and many of those ‘wives’ had children themselves, and they said they would accept refugees but that they would have to follow German law on this issue of age of legal marriage or be deported. It was something that most western countries were shocked to learn but ‘culturally normal’ in those other countries where the refugees lived. I wonder if the newly released brides (the ones that left their husbands but stayed in Germany) have had a speedy culture awakining and are now viewing themselves as having been abused and taken advantage of, wheras some people my age (almost 60) in the US have seen this cultural awaking take decades to come around.

  214. Gus wrote:

    Yes, I hear y’all, but when Moore was 32, that was, wait, 1979, not 1949 or 1959. I’m sure that you know a lot about this, and I practically nothing. But for 1979, this feels VERY odd, even so.

    My mothers family was from Alabama but she married and i was raised on the west coast. I regularly visited and had contact with my mothers side of the family and actually attended college for a time in Georgia in 1979+ The difference in cultural norms was huge even then. What was customary in AL was often considered to be old-fashioned, too constrictive and too prudish in the west coast larger cities. But i will say that also some in WA, OR, ID, & MT, (the very rural areas) still had no qualms about young girls (with parental consent) marrying older men, life on farms and ranches could be as gruelling as the old wild west in some areas. They did however usually have questioning to make sure they were old enough to understand the choice they were making unlike arranged marriages or forced marriages.

  215. Gus wrote:

    But for 1979, this feels VERY odd, even so.

    It wasn’t odd in that era, at least in the South. Honestly, there seems to be some measure of elitism embedded in this. Acceptable elitism, to be sure, in these PC days, but only for a select few groups. “These are just hicks from Alabama. What do you expect? If we don’t like their choice, then we’ll just reject him.” I suggest that this is very dangerous territory for a Constitutional republic. And I think we are in a very dangerous moment but not for the reasons that seem to be shouted on social media at both extremes. There are *lots* of people in Congress I think are unfit, but they were elected by their constituents.

    Here’s what I think is very odd for any era. The idea that it is perfectly fine to take the life of a living human of the gestational age of 39 weeks or so. Or 36 weeks. Or 32 weeks. That isn’t considered child abuse while said human fetus/child is inside the woman’s body but *is* considered child abuse the moment said human fetus/child is *outside* the woman’s body. I am not making a political argument or statement but a moral and logical argument. This form of child abuse never gets discussed in the WaPo or many other places because it is insane. The real moral choice between the candidates — if we are going to moralize this situation as the WaPo and Gloria Allred and the Senate want us to do — then the choices come down to unverifiable claims that are odious and verifiable positions that are odious. Let’s not pretend that one position is a safe harbor for virtue in this 11th hour crisis. Stop and think and make a sound judgment.

    The moral preening by the Senators is especially galling. Mary Jo Kopechne’s voice never was heard in the Senate’s chambers by those who are so morally outraged now. No one threatened to expel Edward Kennedy from the Senate because he drove while drunk and she slowly waited to drown while he ran away, coward that he was. Has the WaPo even mentioned Robert Menendez’ trial or the name Jeffrey Epstein? I hate to bring up money all the time, but I just wonder what might lurk in those frozen bank records of Prince Alwaleed that might have folks in DC a little nervous this past week or so? Did Gloria Allred mention that her daughter paid to have “research” done to blackmail and smear the victims of Weinstein? I didn’t think so. She has no concern for victims.

  216. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    This quote by Mohler is particularly rich in light of how Mohler introduced Mahaney at the last T4G conference

    Once you understand that Mohler is a political operative and not a theologian, the things he says and the things he does make a lot more sense. He will *never* change his position on Mahaney because to do so would be to reveal the nature of the entire enterprise.

  217. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    But I have not yet seen them go after any of their own who appeared to have tolerated abuse in their midst

    “There will be more and more public figures who will be discovered to be private menaces.”
    “These countless instances of abuse are the natural and unsurprising result of a culture—of a world—that devalues women. And considers them disposable. And treats them as if agency is nonexistent. And attempts to corral their sexuality and maintain a lordship over it while simultaneously rewarding men for conquering it.” – Damon Young, Today 12:04pm

    https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com/how-if-you-re-a-man-to-deal-with-the-fact-that-you-re-1820410857

  218. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    So, no, I’m frankly not in the mood for wondering why the women didn’t step forward years ago. Not when the women did step forward today and they’re being called liars and being doxxed at their places of work and so on and so forth. That’s why they didn’t say anything. And yes, I believe them.

    There is a video posted by Darrel Nelson the stepson of Beverly Young Nelson, Roy Moore’s latest accuser, claiming the allegations of his stepmother are all lies.

  219. ishy wrote:

    These men just want to do what they want and say what they want and everybody to be a robot in serving them. That’s not strength, or power, or control. It’s self and sin. I think it takes a great deal more strength to be like Jesus and be merciful and in control of self above all.

    Quite right. There’s a school of thought among those who study psychology profession that people who seek to control others often do so because they cannot control themselves. When you (generic “you”, obviously) preach an ideology, or “gospel™”, that in reality is just a dumb idol – rules made by men, sprinkled with some paraphrases of what God has said – then your ideology is powerless to “transform lives” whatever the marketing message may claim. So, you’re obliged to demonise the people who don’t make your ideology look true.

  220. @ JYJames:

    Thanks for the link. I did not read every word, but I did scan through it adequately.

    Some of us were taught in the growing up years that ‘this is just how men are, so be careful and protect yourself’. Today to say ‘this is just how men are’ is considered sexist in the extreme and loudly denounced. It can’t be both ways. Either this man’s article, and millions of mothers’ cautions to their daughters are correct, or they are not.

    It would be irrational and hyper-biased to look at the ideas which this man is saying and praise him for it while at the same time calling the mothers I have mentioned religious fanatics into purity culture.

    Likewise, it would be irrational to automatically believe every abuse claim that comes forward while at the same time looking at the mothers who have been warning their daughters and labeling them religious fanatics or worse.

    This man is either telling the truth or he is not. The moms have either been telling the truth or not.

    And the Graham/ Pence behavior is either one possible choice for a man who wishes to say ‘not I’ and I can prove it, or it is not.

  221. @ Gram3:

    ” I suggest that this is very dangerous territory for a Constitutional republic.”

    Amen

    Mr. Lincoln brought up the issue as to whether this nation would survive. His was a different precipitating issue, but the idea that it may not survive was then and is now a valid issue to consider.

    If people are functionally disenfranchised, whatever group and by whatever means, they will find a way to be heard. Some of those ways we don’t want to see and some may threaten the stability of the nation itself.

    “Here’s what I think is very odd for any era. The idea that it is perfectly fine to take the life of a living human of the gestational age of 39 weeks or so. Or 36 weeks. Or 32 weeks. That isn’t considered child abuse while said human fetus/child is inside the woman’s body but *is* considered child abuse the moment said human fetus/child is *outside* the woman’s body. ”

    Amen

    There are some so-called prophetic voices who are saying that we are making our children pass through the fire to Ba’al by doing this; that this is due to choosing the wrong values to worship instead of God. And saying that the results in ancient Israel for Ba’al worship will be the same sort of results for any nation which goes down that road. I guess we will have to see if that is true.

    “The moral preening by the Senators is especially galling. Mary Jo Kopechne’s voice never was heard in the Senate’s chambers ….. Has the WaPo even mentioned Robert Menendez’ trial or the name Jeffrey Epstein? I hate to bring up money all the time, but I just wonder what might lurk in those frozen bank records of Prince Alwaleed that might have folks in DC a little nervous this past week or so? Did Gloria Allred mention that her daughter paid to have “research” done to blackmail and smear the victims of Weinstein? I didn’t think so. She has no concern for victims.”

    You got that right. The hypocrisy is staggering.

  222. @ JYJames:
    Now you have a problem because Ariana Huffington has been recently accused of covering up sexual harrassment by one of her top guys.

  223. @ Lydia:

    I would vote policy if the offenses were no more than what ‘everybody’ does, because ‘everybody’ may well be doing bad stuff. I one time asked YS if there were all that many cases to prosecute in the military and I got the answer that they were soldiers, not angels.

    I am not against hard nosed decision making even if one has to vote for one rascal rather than the other rascal, especially when it comes to top priority issues. Reality has to be dealt with even when it is disgusting.

  224. okrapod wrote:

    but I just wonder what might lurk in those frozen bank records of Prince Alwaleed that might have folks in DC a little nervous this past week or so?

    I think this has the potential to be huge if it makes the light of day.

  225. @ okrapod:
    My view is the smaller the gov the less power they have to control us and hide a lot of things. Before the 24/7 news cycle that had gatekeepers, we really did not know much. But back then government wasn’t involved in what people eat, either.

  226. Lydia wrote:

    But back then government wasn’t involved in what people eat, either.

    Don’t be too sure about what the gov did or did not do back when. RE says that she learned in her class on the history of public education in this nation that public education has always been first and foremost about turing out ‘citizens’ who can earn a living and be good americans according to the changing needs of the nation. It has never been education for the same of education, or so they taught her when se was working on her masters in teaching.

    I am not saying that this has been a bad idea, only that the gov has been more than some of us perhaps realized over the years.

  227. JYJames wrote:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/since-you-asked-roy-moore-here-is-why-victims-of_us_5a0724e5e4b0cc46c52e6ae6?section=us_politics

    “Since You Asked, Roy Moore, Here Is Why Victims Of Sexual Violence Wait Decades To Come Forward: Attempting to defame and discredit the abused is a tried and true method of silencing them.”
    by Dani Bostick, Huffington Post 11/11/2017

    That’s a good article with great information for anyone who doesn’t understand why people who have been abused don’t always come forward in a timely manner. The writer has first hand knowledge, unfortunately.

  228. Lydia wrote:

    @ JYJames:
    Now you have a problem because Ariana Huffington has been recently accused of covering up sexual harrassment by one of her top guys.

    It’s a problem for those involved and should be exposed, but it does not diminish the work of every writer who has contributed or exposed truth.

  229. @ okrapod:
    Not sure what “good citizen” curriculum has to do with what I said. Perhaps it’s not changing “needs” but changing social engineering tactics? I have a Masters in education, too, but not as impressed with the historical trajectory of education. Too much Hegelian philosophy for my taste.

  230. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    When you (generic “you”, obviously) preach an ideology, or “gospel™”, that in reality is just a dumb idol – rules made by men, sprinkled with some paraphrases of what God has said – then your ideology is powerless to “transform lives” whatever the marketing message may claim. So, you’re obliged to demonise the people who don’t make your ideology look true.

    That also goes for Ideology without even a hint of the word “God”.
    Look at the history of the Soviet Union and its Third World imitators.

  231. Gram3 wrote:

    The moral preening by the Senators is especially galling.

    It’s all Virtue Signaling.
    And the more Virtue Signaling, the worse the Corruption.

    Didn’t this Rabbi from Nazareth have a lot to say (none of it complementary) about the preening Virtue Signallers in his society?

  232. @ Lydia:

    You were, I thought from your remark about the government and what people eat, saying that there used to be less government involvement in people’s lives, I made the assumption that you meant ordinary and everyday lives, not just nutritional guidelines. That was purely assumption. I was trying to establish the position that the public schools for example, which are government funded and controlled, were under mandate to create a certain thinking style in the populace as it (the gov) determined the need for some particular thinking style to be, and that this level of impacting people’s live goes back to the beginning.

    This issue has come up in the recent decades about historical revisionism in textbooks (which is alleged to be recent) but also in the lack of instruction in black history, black literature, and women’s history all of which have been neglected from back in the time which I thought you were talking about. This all is a sort of government mind and opinion control, but I just don’t see it as only recent but also as something which goes way back.

    Congrats on your masters in education. That is not RE’s degree. She did not do a major in education as undergrad but rather in psych and then went into teaching later, so she has a master’s in teaching with emphasis on learning disabilities, something which built nicely on her undergrad major. I tried to get her to go further in psych, but she had become disillusioned with it. I dare say there is overlap in material in the different education/teaching degrees but the emphasis is somewhat different. Just trying to be accurate here; this has no meaning to this conversation that I know of.

    But, no, I was trying to talk about gov impact on people’s live whether we saw it so much or not.

  233. Gram3 wrote:

    Here’s what I think is very odd for any era. The idea that it is perfectly fine to take the life of a living human of the gestational age of 39 weeks or so. Or 36 weeks. Or 32 weeks. That isn’t considered child abuse while said human fetus/child is inside the woman’s body but *is* considered child abuse the moment said human fetus/child is *outside* the woman’s body. I am not making a political argument or statement but a moral and logical argument. This form of child abuse never gets discussed in the WaPo or many other places because it is insane. The real moral choice between the candidates — if we are going to moralize this situation as the WaPo and Gloria Allred and the Senate want us to do — then the choices come down to unverifiable claims that are odious and verifiable positions that are odious. Let’s not pretend that one position is a safe harbor for virtue in this 11th hour crisis. Stop and think and make a sound judgment.

    Amen and Amen Gram3. The hypocrisy of the liberal-latte-set needs to called out too. I’m not one bit averse for doing so, and as many of you here know, I’m an equal opportunity offender. Another case in point:

    Y’all know the Keurig Coffee Maker folks right?
    Well, when Sean Hannity’s interview with Roy Moore didn’t go to their liking, they pulled their ads. Really? They manufacture their glitzy plastic junk with slave-labor in third-world sweat shops, sell em’ Stateside for obscene markups, and now they’re on a moral high-horse?
    If it weren’t so ludicrous it would almost be funny.

  234. Lydia wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    Unless, of course, they expose the same problem where they work?

    I say, good for them, if they expose the problem where they work!

  235. Lydia wrote:

    “The morality of what *a certain President* did hasn’t changed. The politics did.”

    “I didn’t have politics with that woman!”

  236. Lydia wrote:

    Bill Clinton identifies as Southern Baptist.

    Oh yes! He even sang in the choir at First Baptist, Hope, AR. But, his home church never called him into account for his assorted sins.

  237. @ Muff Potter:
    They have politicized sports, entertainment and even food. But Coffee? Now I am really mad. Coffee is neutral. It brings a smile of enjoyment to all creeds and sizes. I prefer a pot over one mug but understand the mug people. We are one. It’s gone too far. Coffee. Hands off!

  238. @ okrapod:
    When I was in high school the feds were not making the requirements or decisions on our school lunches. That was a local decision wth state oversight. But then the federal department of education had not been around long enough to overtake the states.

    Education masters. What a joke it is.

  239. Gram3 wrote:

    The idea that it is perfectly fine to take the life of a living human of the gestational age of 39 weeks or so. Or 36 weeks. Or 32 weeks. That isn’t considered child abuse

    When doing a stint on a local non-profit board I found that many women were pressured into taking the life of their unborn child by family or more commonly their boy friend. If you want to consider abuse, consider pressuring a young woman to take the life of her child instead of giving her love and support. I’ve heard many a story of regret and their stories sound similar to those of abuse survivors.

  240. Just saw where France is considering lowering the age of consent to 13. Some others are too, but can’t remember which ones exactly offhand. Why? Islam.

    So is morality changing or politics?

  241. Lydia wrote:

    Just saw where France is considering lowering the age of consent to 13.

    That would just open children up to being abused by older/cunning people and/or pushed into something by parents. Not a good one in my opinion. Hope it doesn’t happen for children’s sake.

  242. Lydia wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    Not so good if they need to pay the mortgage!

    Nope. But many have gone up against their own employers to expose evil, and they often suffered for it.

  243. @ Bridget:

    The report I saw said that there is not now nor has there every been any law regarding age of consent in France. That report said they were considering 15 but that someone had said that 13 had not been totally ruled out. There was some mention of a court case or two which accepted sex at 11 and some folks thought that was too young.

    It does not look like they are getting more liberal but rather for the first time considering not being as liberal as they have been.

    I have no idea if the report was accurate.

  244. Bridget wrote:

    That’s a good article with great information for anyone who doesn’t understand why people who have been abused don’t always come forward in a timely manner.

    For me, at least, it isn’t the 40 years but rather the unique circumstances of this complex of events that make each claim more difficult to believe ***than they would have under other circumstances.*** As I understand it, there are two claims that are attempted (actual?) sexual assaults on girls 14 and 16, and other inappropriate behaviors that are alleged by other witnesses.

    As many others have said, these are outrageous behaviors and should have been brought out by they adults in the community much earlier in the many contested races which were largely centered on moral issues. There was another deputy DA who is now in another state who now claims that he or she knew about something fishy going on. So why didn’t he/she say something back then? Everyone understands why a child wouldn’t say something to authorities, but another assistant DA? The WaPo has not produced a plausible account of how the story was developed and why it was suddenly produced only after the ballot was locked. The pattern fits other dirty tricks, and that isn’t helpful to the victims, if their stories are true.

    It may very well be that the victims’ stories are true. But the circumstances under which their stories have been brought forth muddies the whole picture, and, because there are problems in the stories on both sides, it makes it difficult to discern what is true and what is not true for people who are trying to be fair-minded. Keep in mind that my first experience with sexual abuse was as a witness who was not believed along with other witnesses who were not believed about a victim who denied the abuse until another victim spoke up later. I get it. But I also get it about false accusations and justice.

  245. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It’s all Virtue Signaling.
    And the more Virtue Signaling, the worse the Corruption.

    Didn’t this Rabbi from Nazareth have a lot to say (none of it complementary) about the preening Virtue Signallers

    Yes, he did. Long fringes hanging from the corners so everyone could see their righteousness. Just like the Gospel Glitterati who like to tell their subjects like the lowly Deebs and Wartburgers to sit down and shut up, so the Senators tell the subjects (fka citizens) in Alabama who shall represent them.

    Here’s the thing with these Senators. Scoundrels have been kicked out for treason and bribery. None have been kicked out on the basis of mere accusations of behavior 40 years prior to their election. Certainly none have been threatened with expulsion before an election has even been held! That is actually a threat against the citizens of the state of Alabama. What a kangaroo court banana republic clown show these sorry guys are.

  246. Thersites wrote:

    If you want to consider abuse, consider pressuring a young woman to take the life of her child instead of giving her love and support. I’ve heard many a story of regret and their stories sound similar to those of abuse survivors.

    Yes, indeed. There is more to choice than is often discussed. And there is also mutual responsibility. The best pro-life investment, IMO, is 3-D ultrasound. Let everyone see what everyone is actually talking about doing. Informed consent should mean really informed.

  247. Gram3 wrote:

    Everyone understands why a child wouldn’t say something to authorities, but another assistant DA?

    I find it hard to believe that a bunch of 16/17 year olds were not swapping tales at the time. Have times changed that much?

  248. Gram3 wrote:

    As many others have said, these are outrageous behaviors and should have been brought out by they adults in the community much earlier in the many contested races which were largely centered on moral issues. There was another deputy DA who is now in another state who now claims that he or she knew about something fishy going on. So why didn’t he/she say something back then? Everyone understands why a child wouldn’t say something to authorities, but another assistant DA?

    I have more of a problem with the above. Why did everyone just let it go? Why didn’t they bring it up? They didn’t want it brought up is one possible conclusion . . . they were willing to give it a pass if it meant their guy wins?

    I don’t necessarily believe it’s up to WA PO to break the story in a way that makes everyone happy. Who knows, maybe they didn’t have all the info until they actually broke the story?

    Unfortunately, another woman came forward today 🙁

  249. @ okrapod:

    Thanks for that info. I hope you’re correct and that France is coming up with a reasonable age of consent — not one that will only make it worse for adolescent children.

  250. @ JYJames:
    I read this article more than once and I don’t understand your reason for referencing it. The author’s main point is that ALL men (and especially white men) are trash.

  251. Gram3 wrote:

    Yes, indeed. There is more to choice than is often discussed. And there is also mutual responsibility. The best pro-life investment, IMO, is 3-D ultrasound. Let everyone see what everyone is actually talking about doing. Informed consent should mean really informed.

    Ditto here. I remember a Boston Legal episode years back in which James Spader watched an ultrasound and remarked that it’s getting increasingly more difficult to argue that it’s just a “blob of tissue”. And I think you’re right, ultrasounds may convince many young women to adopt their babies out to childless couples who will cherish and love them, rather than terminating those little ones and disposing of them as if they were just garbage.
    I’m staunchly anti-abortion, always have been.

  252. okrapod wrote:

    I find it hard to believe that a bunch of 16/17 year olds were not swapping tales at the time.

    I imagine they were. In the instance where I was a witness, the mid-teen girl was not particularly open about it, but it was known among a few other teen girls who told some of their parents who talked among themselves. Incredibly, some of those parents dismissed it as no problem because you don’t want to know why. I was astonished and shocked. This girl sought the attention, and did not want to end it. The situation was complicated by other external factors (which today might be characterized as political correctness) which made it “convenient” or, really, expedient for the responsible adults to whom it was then reported to disbelieve the parents who were throwing the red flags. The responsible adults were labeled with labels which were not pleasant, but truth tellers sometimes pay a price. A few years later there was undeniable proof positive of abuse, and then the authorities finally acted. So, sometimes knowledge among the teens stays among the teens and their parents until something else happens.

  253. Bridget wrote:

    I don’t necessarily believe it’s up to WA PO to break the story in a way that makes everyone happy.

    It isn’t about making people happy but rather about credibility. On its face, it’s a political hit piece which was perfectly timed as a hit piece. It may not be a political hit piece, but it has all the marks of one. At this point, additional stories don’t really bolster the basic case because the *nature* of the case has probably been determined in most people’s minds. Gloria Allred’s presentations are almost identical from one to the next.

    If the WaPo has provided a plausible explanation for their reporting methodology, I would like to see it. However, absent that, I think it is more likely that it is a product of what Larry Sabato of UVA and Glenn Simpson of the WSJ (at the time) wrote about back in the 1990’s about the future of journalism and politics and so forth. You may recognize Simpson’s name from Fusion GPS which has been linked mostly with with one party but which is happy to take money from any one.

    Journalists are lazy, and the WaPo does not make money for Bezos. Ergo, somebody has probably paid for that “journalism.” That same rule applies if news favorable to the Red party appears. Somebody who benefits from the Red party has probably paid for that, too.

  254. Lydia wrote:

    Maybe there are no “good” guys so policy becomes the default?

    Tangential but I wonder if there were purists in Daniels day that condemned his association with the Babylonian government.

  255. Gram3 wrote:

    It isn’t about making people happy but rather about credibility

    I’ll virtue signal first, Moore would not be my candidate and if the allegations are true he should step aside, that said the WaPo has a negative credibility here. As already signaled, I don’t like Moore but I don’t like planned political character assignation either. There have been so many of these late timed hatchet jobs for an easy acceptance of an explanation for the timing. They even have their own name, “October Surprise”.

    My guess is this type of negative story is not as effective as it once was, many are now cynical about what the press reports, what it doesn’t report, and the apparent cynical timing. All this adds to a climate where it is harder for normal people to even speak to each other. Too bad the center no longer holds.

    By the way, love the picture at the top of Mt Rainier, one of my favorite places. The wild flower displays at Paradise in late July and August are unsurpassed.

  256. It goes like this:

    Penitent: Bless me father for …..I am cynical from too many years of working with the public, and too many years pouring over medical records and seeing what people get treated for, and too many years working for the gov, and too many years listening to gossip and picking up on people’s body language and noting the trends of ‘pastoral’ sermon series, and listening to RE and YS who each work in the midst of the mire, and too many times of hearing something addressed to me and which begins with ‘I just thought you ought to know, but…’and too many cautionary letters from my old malpractice insurance carrier about the dangers to be avoided in dealing with people, and too much surprise surprise of what we ‘unexpectedly’ found on the ultrasound, and too much discussion of DNA evidence that 10% of people think the wrong guy is their daddy, and ….well, it just goes on and on. I am cynical. I don’t see any trustworthy repositories of virtue in any designated group. I don’t trust politics or religion or family or co-workers; and I sure don’t trust the reliability of sources of information. Trust is gone. Faith in humanity is a farce. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.

    Priest: You think you feel like this? You have not scratched the surface of how I feel. Thanks for stopping by. Have a chocolate chip cookie and carry on.

  257. Thersites wrote:

    As already signaled, I don’t like Moore but I don’t like planned political character assignation either. There have been so many of these late timed hatchet jobs for an easy acceptance of an explanation for the timing. They even have their own name, “October Surprise”.

    Same thinking here. The timing and the method used for this hit will only serve to make it harder for some future victims to be heard. And God forbid if you are a victim of someone popular and supported by the media/current cool people.

    Moore is an easy guy to hate but there is no pattern for over 30-40 years. That is unusual in and of itself. And if you read about his career there was every reason for the Alabama legal establishment to dig and use the innuendos against him to get rid of him for once and for all. They tried everything else.

    However, I have known Mitch M since local days.

    Btw, my parents were 20 years apart in age. They married after she was out of college at 21.

    I kept thinking of Elvis/Priscilla and Seinfeld/Shoshanna.

    Oh well. No one can accuse me of being PC. And sadly, any questioning of the timing or method and one is thought to be a wacked out Fundy. No. I am more concerned with politicizing victims for a political hit job and how that plays out for the future of victims.

  258. Lydia wrote:

    Btw, my parents were 20 years apart in age. They married after she was out of college at 21.
    I kept thinking of Elvis/Priscilla and Seinfeld/Shoshanna.

    Thank you for saying that.

    And no, nothing in the rest of your comment makes you a wacked out fundy. Nor am I, but I share your concerns.

    I am also concerned that people are convicted on the testimony of one witness, provided only that the witness claims victimization of some sort. Both the OT and the NT say that is a no no and no exception is made as to the nature of he allegation.

    Oh, but the alleged victim always tells the truth? Really, well then we can quit using DNA evidence of paternity; just believe what the woman says. NOT

    We are in dangerous territory if we let that sort of thinking continue unchallenged.

  259. Lydia wrote:

    Same thinking here. The timing and the method used for this hit will only serve to make it harder for some future victims to be heard. And God forbid if you are a victim of someone popular and supported by the media/current cool people.

    What are the alternatives, don’t investigate the rumor? Don’t do the story? Wait until after the election to print the story?

    IMO, it’s now PC to despise the media. There has been much exposure to wrong by the media, so I’m not sure we want to go without.

  260. Lydia wrote:

    Btw, my parents were 20 years apart in age. They married after she was out of college at 21.
    I kept thinking of Elvis/Priscilla and Seinfeld/Shoshanna.

    That is different than a 14 YO and a 32 YO who has some power.

  261. JYJames wrote:

    … or, he is cutting a wide swath about a culture that devalues women.

    Do you agree with him that ALL men are trash? I personally do not find that viewpoint helpful. It’s the secular version of the abusive sin-sniffing shame-based worm theology that causes so much damage. We cannot lift up any demographic by pushing down others. That approach tends to backfire.

  262. Bridget wrote:

    What are the alternatives

    Be sober-minded and wise. Treat others as we would want to be treated. Would I want to be believed? If I were Judge Moore? If I were one of the women? Then I deserve to be heard. The problem with the mass media’s credibility is that they have squandered it themselves. No one has forced them to squander it. The way to recover their credibility is to cover stories without obvious bias. For example, how about giving some coverage to the Robert Menendez bribery trial that has been going on for WEEKS? There have been multiple allegations of sexual misconduct with underage girls by him in addition to bribery. Yet where is the breathless wall-to-wall coverage ***of a sitting Senator?*** That is the problem which the media has created for itself and which only the media can fix. However, I don’t believe that it will because I don’t think that the purpose is to truthfully inform but rather to shape belief in a particular way.

    If the new Rule is that your life and career can be ruined by one vindictive Victim who has a persuasive Story, then be prepared to be ruined. If you are a female teacher, then prepare yourself just as much as your male colleagues…

  263. Gram3 wrote:

    If you are a female teacher, then prepare yourself just as much as your male colleagues…

    Goodness yes. The local school system rule is that no teacher can ever be alone with any student in any room with the door closed for any reason. Ever. Never. And it is not always about sex.

    The teachers have insurance and union representation and the school system has lawyers of its own.

    GK#1 signed up for the academic team and the leader, a male teacher, asked her mom for permission to put her on the notification list as to notification of practice times-since the message would appear on her phone. Otherwise, no notification per phone message, for everybody’s protection.

    The world has become so dangerous for everybody, the alleged innocent right along with the alleged guilty and the alleged victim.

    And the alleged press loves it.

  264. @ Bridget:
    I’m a big reader of history and I can just feel the shadow of Maos cultural revolution lurking in the background not just with this but on a much bigger level. Now it takes courage to dare disagree and be willing to be labeled as a Fundy rube, racist, etc. people lose their jobs over this sort of thing. it’s happening in my town right now to a pretty good guy.

    Anything I write comes off as supporting Moore and dissing victims. Again, shades of Mao. In truth, in the long run, this will only harm victims. The kind I have worked with in person. The kind that don’t have powerful jobs or powerful political backing. I think he was blindsided. I think he is not a sympathetic figure. Alred is not helping credibility. Research on Moore’s life and the accusations is not helping the victims.

    I don’t have answers for you except it would’ve been much more helpful and believable before the primary. I do think we should be asking a lot of questions. For the sake of everyone. Especially future victims. It’s dangerous stuff for us all when the Senate has the power to decide who can be your Senator. I live with votes. I go to work the next day.

  265. okrapod wrote:

    The teachers have insurance and union representation and the school system has lawyers of its own.

    Seen the flip side of that one.
    The Teacher’s Union in my state is really screwed up.

  266. @ Bridget:
    Priscilla was 14. I think ithat creepy because of lack of further education is typical. But a lot of people thought my parents 20 year difference was a problem, too. I heard lots of insults about my “grandfather”.

  267. @ Bridget:
    For many years I had to read about SGM and CJ Mahaney on blogs because the media did not cover it. Years later a local magazine article came out. So when you say it’s PC to despise the media, we will have to go into a little bit more depth about what that is and what that means. These days it’s about reading a lot of things and piecing it together for yourself trying to pick out patterns and facts and evidence. A democracy can only survive with a people who are willing to do that.

  268. Lydia wrote:

    Now it takes courage to dare disagree and be willing to be labeled as a Fundy rube, racist, etc. people lose their jobs over this sort of thing. it’s happening in my town right now to a pretty good guy.

    Ya’ got that right. See what happens to you on a ‘progressive’ Christian blog if you dare even the slightest critique of the Orwellian race meme which basically says that white folks are the source of all the ills that plague the Church and society in general.
    They’ll descend on you with a fury.
    I’ve always said we have common ground Lyds, even though we disagree greatly on the virtues of Libertarianism and Socialism.

  269. Lydia wrote:

    it’s PC to despise the media

    I despise media and Congresscreatures, both (R) and (D) who ignore the trial of Senator Robert Menendez(D) and the alleged bribery and theft of millions from Medicare and Medicaid and his associations with Jeffrey Epstein and the alleged sexual abuse of children. I think that this is one reason that so much smoke is being blown about Judge Moore over this issue of child sexual abuse in particular. WaPo and the NYT do not want to talk about Menendez because he is among (at least for the moment) the Right People even though the Right People have done really bad things. For a time, Weinstein was among the Right People. Bill Clinton was among the Right People. This week, the media has started to talk a bit about his “weaknesses” and their failure to talk about them, but they only failed to report because the “right” was so awful to him.

    Right now what is strictly Politically Correct is to ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE THE VICTIMS NO MATTER WHAT. Anyone who does not immediately affirm every part of every victim’s story is tarred as a re-victimizer. I think that is very unwise as an iron-clad rule absent wisdom. We are in the midst of hysteria. *If* the 2 victims in this case are not telling the truth, then the real victims are Judge Moore and the voters who supported him. Think about that just for a few moments and let the weight of what has happened sink in. The WaPo has not been transparent. Their stance has been basically Authoritarian “You Must Not Question Our Authority.” They are Pravda *and* Izvestia. Now think about what that means. They have interfered in the election while covering themselves with a fig leaf. The foundation of our Constitutional republic is that we have self-correcting “peaceful revolutions” via elections and that the voters decide. If that is no longer the case, then we are in danger.

    I really hope that something comes out of the Prince Alwaleed and Prince Bandar bank records. WaPo and the NYT could take some time to look at those to discover if there has been child trafficking, but I don’t think they really want to do that because it might implicate the Right People.

  270. Gram3 wrote:

    The way to recover their credibility is to cover stories without obvious bias.

    This will only come if they have real diversity within their ranks and will not with the groupthink where everyone thinks and votes the same way when opinion in the rest of the country is evenly divided. I’d much rather a Lydia/Muff Potter mix of opinions, although someone may come and revoke Potter’s lefty credentials as he has wondered off the plantation of late.

  271. Gram3 wrote:

    This week, the media has started to talk a bit about his “weaknesses” and their failure to talk about them

    It is so very convenient, Bill is now safely out of power and they want his significant other to go away also. Granted this thread is about Al Mohler and Joe Carter and it is a good reminder that when leaders in the church get to similar levels of corruption it is a terrible waste of the opportunity to shine a light in the world.

  272. Lydia wrote:

    Priscilla was 14. I think ithat creepy because of lack of further education is typical.

    Her parents were involved with all this as well if you read up on it. After a point, pretty early on, they were okay with the ten year difference. But, again, I imagine money and fame lent a hand . . .

  273. Lydia wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    For many years I had to read about SGM and CJ Mahaney on blogs because the media did not cover it. Years later a local magazine article came out. So when you say it’s PC to despise the media, we will have to go into a little bit more depth about what that is and what that means. These days it’s about reading a lot of things and piecing it together for yourself trying to pick out patterns and facts and evidence. A democracy can only survive with a people who are willing to do that.

    Most of my fb is filled with “it’s all Fake News.” I get constant posts from news sites that offer no information about their business at all. When I point out the craziness of no “about page” for a site that looks like a news site, I get silence from the posters.

  274. Thersites wrote:

    Granted this thread is about Al Mohler and Joe Carter and it is a good reminder that when leaders in the church get to similar levels of corruption it is a terrible waste of the opportunity to shine a light in the world.

    No kidding. Groupthink is the only kind of thinking that is permitted inside the Gospel Glitterati universe, which is the one I have most recently occupied. Been There. Sinned by Questioning. Keyed Out. Must Not Question Authority Placed Over Us For Our Good And God’s Glory.

    Absolute and unquestionable authority corrupts, and it does not matter if it is right or left or political or religious or what flavor of religious or whether it is male or female, as long as it is human. For some inscrutable reason, we think that this time it will be different if it looks like us or talks like us or thinks like us. There must be a correction mechanism which gets seized up in some way and must be un-seized up. That is usually difficult and messy.

  275. Gram3 wrote:

    Absolute and unquestionable authority corrupts, and it does not matter if it is right or left or political or religious or what flavor of religious or whether it is male or female, as long as it is human. For some inscrutable reason, we think that this time it will be different if it looks like us or talks like us or thinks like us. There must be a correction mechanism which gets seized up in some way and must be un-seized up. That is usually difficult and messy.

    I have wondered about this. If we take it a step further we get to the idea of whether or not there is a single god who has ultimate authority. I wonder whether people would be wanting to think there is such a god if they did not want there to be a depository of absolute authority. And being from the position I frequently reference, I wonder if some of this is in born-in biologic makeup similar to the single dominant male in some other species. I heard some ideas way back in school as to how this pattern leads to healthier/ smarter/ whatever offspring in the next generation-breeding from the dominant male in species that do that. I wonder if both male and female humans respond to a single dominant male type in similar ways in which some other species respond to single dominant males.

    And in religion, what is more single and dominant and traditionally male than YHWH, or that matter Allah. Meanwhile we note that protestantism seems to have a ‘feel’ about the doctrine of the Trinity which is more to almost always refer to Jesus as ‘Son’ while Catholicism emphasizes more than protestantism (it seems to me) the doctrine of the virginity of Mary who was impregnated by God (the Spirit).

    Well, it is just a thought/ observation, but it looks very real to me. And there is Romans 1 where we are told that something about God can be seen in creation. Perhaps this may be part of that.

  276. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Interpretation. We’re outsiders looking at a 3rd Party, the writer, and what he is saying.

    POV – some see the problem as cultural – a system – and the fact that, historically, women suffered reprisal when they came forth with their stories, and where were The Good Guys – individuals – to back them up? Again, POV – is it possible the writer is calling his gender to task, himself included?

  277. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Here is a similar piece from yesterday’s TWW post: (same thing the article writer was getting at – a Culture of Coercion – and where were The Good Guys & Gals? standing with victims, historically, that is.):

    brian on Fri Nov 17, 2017 at 01:44 AM said:
    “Just a thought, my entire Christian experience it was made very clear that I swim/slither very close to the shallow, polluted end of the spiritual gene pool. Trust me that was made clear on a permanent basis in my real-world experience. I just think women and children are treated horribly in our nation, I really do. Women have carried our species, they are the life givers, they are the backbone of the faith, they did not abandon Jesus at the cross. So why would a pastor rattle on protecting some mall rat looking to score (sorry about being crude). I realize he does not play a real big part in the modern evangelical industry but Jesus never reviled back against people who reviled him. I mean He listens to the worst of the worst and He continues to stay His hand, of course, He does, that is what a Father does.
    So I offer this, I am sorry to all women, to the jokes, the leers, the sordid jokes, the power inequities, using God as an excuse to treat U all like a nonhuman. We turned a blind eye to injustice and abuse. I just wanted to add that. God be with U all.”

  278. @ JYJames:

    My experience has been more mixed than that. No way do I see men as intrinsically evil and women as intrinsically good, for example. People individually and corporately are a mixed bag. I think that Ken/tweed has a point.

  279. JYJames wrote:

    POV – some see the problem as cultural – a system – and the fact that, historically, women suffered reprisal when they came forth with their stories, and where were The Good Guys – individuals – to back them up? Again, POV – is it possible the writer is calling his gender to task, himself included?

    It boils down to the value of POVs. If all POVs are equally valuable then they are also equally irrelevant, and therefore useless to bring up since no one can gain anything of value from another equally valuable POV. I don’t believe all POVs are equally valuable. I believe some are worthless, and some are highly valuable.

    I consider Damon Young’s POV as expressed on his site as less than worthless because it is a POV that fuels abuse. I get the part that each one of us should do some soul searching and that each of us has blind spots. But to label all men as trash means that men lack any ability to further the cause of women. If that is true, we men should all give up because we worthless pieces of trash who cannot possible get it right, and even if we do one thing right there are countless other things we have completely screwed up because we have not done enough sin-sniffing and navel-gazing.

    Quoting Damon Young on gender relations is just as useful as quoting John Piper on the value of women. Sure, they both get a few things right, but in the total context of everything else they say and write they badly miss the mark and do more harm than good.

    POVs should be challenged and tested. The good ones will rise to the top.

  280. @ okrapod:
    @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    True. We all fall short, Romans 3:23. Genderless.
    True, as a culture, there’s a corporate issue of how men (and some women) treat women. Vast impersonal data.
    True, everyone’s individual experience is personal, unique and different. Not stats.

    Now some men are saying enough is enough, apologizing corporately, albeit crudely.
    Of course, some cannot speak for all.
    Bravo for the ones who acknowledge, speak up and apologize, however imperfectly.
    For those not so inclined, God bless you, too.

    The writer says there will be much more forthcoming about what has happened in private with public figures. Why? Because he has witnessed and did not speak up, for example, at social gatherings. He’s talking about himself and the crowd he runs with.

    In contrast, bravo for the heroes who have always done the right thing.
    Bravo, again, for those who now want to do the right thing, like this writer.

  281. https://twitter.com/BozT/status/931323521661272064

    “Why do professing non-Christians seem to be more likely to acknowledge their abusive behavior than those who profess to follow Jesus??” 4:50 PM – 16 Nov 2017 Boz Tchividjian

    This is an interesting question from Boz Tchividjian. Even more interesting are the Tweets in response. Incredible. Follow the link for the Group Think. Some are Dones, some are defensive, and others weigh in with ideas and experiences.

    So, a question follows: Do truth-seekers find themselves in quite a mixed-bag and unusual crowd?

    Is this what happened with Jesus?

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