First?

Another reason the SBC is a joke. I still want to know the story of the 1,000 SBC missionaries that were called home.

This post has many thoughtful insights, especially the character qualities needed to be a loving pastor. Like your husband, I am deeply touched when a pastor knows my name & uses it in a kind way. Sometimes because of past hurts in churches, when I go to a church service, I just want to be an anonymous person who sits in the back. But I know I can’t do that forever. For me personally, it takes faith to be “known” in a church. I’m not there yet.

Wow, that’s a ridiculous number of roles he’s taking on. I’m not sure what title is appropriate for the job he’ll do there (Lecturer? Speaker?) but “Pastor” is certainly not it.

Are people these days accustomed to this style of “church” where they’re just a number and only there to listen to someone completely detached from their lives speak to them for 45 minutes or so? I don’t understand the appeal in attending something like that.

First thought is David Platt misses having a large live audience every week. Second thought is the IMB Presidency is a full-time job which God also “called” him to and God is not as flakey as David Platt appears to be. Third thought is what is wrong with Trustees in the SBC that they cannot act? “You want to be a prima donna with a weekend gig? OK, Don’t let the door hit your tutu on the way out!” Seriously, is this Hollywood or the church of Jesus Christ?

Personally, this is sad because we have a long-ago connection to McLean Bible. What I see happening is horrifying. With the IMB and the NAMB and 9Marks and ERLC there, it sure looks like there will be political consolidation in D.C. of what used to be known as the SBC. I’m sure the new name for the SBC has already been determined because “Southern” and “Baptist” and “Convention” is not going to work. I wonder when they will roll it out.

Sorry for the duplicate!

@ Tree:
They throw that stuff out there expecting the sheeple to believe them. They said it’s a new testament model– so it is.

@ Gram3:
My advice to everyone is to stop giving them money. I promote the Salvation Army over the SBC. Boy did that make some pastors extremely mad. 🙂

I mean, they were so mad I have no doubt they’re trying to find me.

Yeah, my husband and I are not fans of this recent development. McLean Bible Church is the church of my childhood (Lon Solomon is a personal family friend) and my husband came to know Christ at MBC. We are disgusted that it’s gone neo-Cal and SBC. My husband said this evening that it’s like a plague and now even once-immune MBC is falling victim to it. So disheartening.

This concern was raised when Platt took the position at the mission board. Here’s the line he gave then when questioned about the issue:

http://www.bpnews.net/43260/www.bpnews.net/43240/cooperation-central-to-platts-vision-at-imb

On August 27, 2014, Platt spoke “with Baptist media representatives in a telephone press conference”:

Brandon Pickett of Virginia asked Platt about “taking full-time role as the president of the IMB and transitioning out as a pastor.”

Platt assured:

“I’m going to preach at Brook Hills for the next three Sundays….after I finish preaching at Brook Hills….my full energies will shift to full-on IMB….Sept. 14, that will be my last Sunday at Brook Hills, and then we’ll begin to shift totally after that.”

“Call him a speaker, not a pastor.”

I think the title of “pastor” has lost its meaning. It has been assigned to any imaginable paid position in an institutional church.

Head pastor, lead pastor, teaching pastor, senior pastor, preaching pastor, associate pastor, assistant pastor, worship pastor, music pastor, youth pastor, college pastor, building services pastor, executive pastor …

While many take much pride in their pastor title I would be embarrassed at the current level of absurdity. I’ve even seen “multi-media pastor”.

No disrespect to the multitude of honest, hard working “real” pastors who labor faithfully, week in and week out in normal churches with an average of 100-200 in attendance each week. These pastors faithfully execute the responsibilities of their jobs, but those who so desire can carve out a fairly cushy lifestyle as a pastor.

I did a little research of John Folmar, my ex-pastor in Dubai, in 2013, the year I quit. Of the available 52 weekly Friday morning sermons (church in the UAE is held on Friday, Sunday is the first day of the work week) Folmar spoke at exactly half of them – 26. I will grant you that he spoke at other church in the UAE and other countries during some of those weeks, but the fact is he is paid a salary by the UCCD members to be the senior pastor at their church.

Another example is P.J. Smyth of Covenant Life Church. (Formerly pastored by Joshua Harris and C.J. Mahaney.) Smyth started preaching at CLC on January 8, 2017. Smyth has preached 20 out of a possible 35 Sundays since he was hired! He had an 8 week hiatus in July and August, nice work if you can get it. I don’t know of any other job where an employee is granted 2 months of vacation after working for 6 months. (And to be accurate, he preached only 20 of 25 weeks in his first 6 months on the job, so he has effectively had 3 months off in his first 8 months of his job.)

Amazing to me is that these same preachers will harangue the members to up their donations to meet budget shortfalls! More amazing is members will do so.

He has spent some of those weeks off preaching at “Advance” conferences. This is a network of churches Smyth started while preaching in South Africa and is attempting to expand into the USA, but again, it doesn’t appear to me that CLC members are getting an honest day’s work for the salary they are paying Smyth, but the average member doesn’t seem overly concerned about that.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

Can someone explain to me how you can spend 20-25 hours a week preparing a sermon?

Many don’t. They just say they do. Many who say this buy sermon services to write their sermons for them.

I seriously have heard the exact same sermon at three churches, with the same title and even the same examples, and all of those pastors boasted about the amount of time they spent writing their sermons. Nope.

Of course, a lot of people in their church have no idea their pastor has somebody else write their sermons and they don’t go elsewhere very often, so they wouldn’t realize it. These services advertised themselves via students in seminary, passing around flyers and CDs. And they are extremely popular with Baptist pastors, but most Baptists have no idea they even exist.

@ Thersites:

Exactly! “Pastor” has lost its meaning entirely, much like the terms “gospel” and “biblical”. My impression is that these guys truly have no intention to get to know or love anyone–they only desire to lead! It is only a money and power grab for them.

Whenever I feel ashamed to be a Southern Baptist because of the reputation and antics of these snake oil salesmen, I have to remind myself that they are clearly NOT Southern Baptists…they have only ridden on the coat tails of the SBC to seize fame and fortune. Hopefully they will all burn themselves out by being ‘crazy busy’ like Platt and go away!

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

Can someone explain to me how you can spend 20-25 hours a week preparing a sermon?

I expect your educated guess is as good as mine, but ISTM you spend 20-25 hours preparing a sermon if you’ve not much else to do. Parkinson’s Law (Wiki article here for any Wartburgers at a loose end with 5 minutes to spare).

I am certainly not saying that my job is equivalent to giving a sermon at church

Absolutely not. You have an actual job with many other responsibilities. As does a real paster, of course.

The pastor at a church we attend is going to get a three month sabbatical in Jan. They plan on filling his role with members speaking and an occasional pastor from another related church. Every eight years the denomination "requires it". I want to know when did my husband or me get a vacation from life. It certainly wasn't dealing with parents extreme mental illness for 30 years, health problems of both sets of departed parents raising my sister when we had a new baby and the teenage junk she put us thu, it certainly wasn't when my husband lost the use of arm to a accident and spent a year at p.t , it certainly wasn't when my accident caused me a bum leg and I still do my housework dragging it around. it wasn't when we spent 10 years in inter city ministry and certainly not the 60 hour week my husband put in hoping on day his boss will finally honour his words and we can buy in to the company after using his name in a limited parntership where due to the financial mess of '08 we haven't seen a bit of profit but have had insurance go up 40 percent. He needs a vacation, so do I from LIFE.

This is indirectly related to this topic….I am questioning the current practice of “satellite” churches….where a church starts another location with the “pastor” appearing via webcam. What’s up with this? Cheaper….only pay one pastor and get double the offerings? How can you “pastor” a church if you don’t meet the sheep???? A current trend where I live….sounds stupid to me.

@ Todd Wilhelm:
The “salary” thing is often a deflection. Being paid an honorarium for each sermon is not a “salary” so one wonders if this is all spin. In kind renumeration is not a “salary” as you mention. Expenses run high in that stratosphere. He won’t sacrifice financially. That s not how it works.

I just listened to a YRR “pup” give a 45 minute tearful “sermon” on the huge sacrifice he is making to leave the church he ruined after 5 years to be a “teaching pastor” in a mega. I happen to know his income will almost double. He even had the nerve to say he was leaving the church in the best shape it had ever been in and it’s history! It has less than half the members and attendance it had when he came. All the Community out reach programs were killed by him. There are now NO laypeople chairing committees. The non Cal-Staff members eventually left and were replaced with SBTS people. He did nothing but travel on so-called mission trips or went to conferences and seem to be on vacation every other month. My friend tells me that people were really starting to grumble about that. It took long enough!

Anyway, the “sermon” was completely delusional.

@ Gram3:
If a merger is in the works (someone at SBC Today suggested that might be the case and was chided by a writer at SBCVoices for writing it which made me think it’s true) Ezell seems like the likely candidate.

My guess is they are already intertwined in more ways than folks might understand. As I think it’s all going NGO working with the UN and Feds for some of the billions out there.

@ Thersites:
I learned recently that these titles are very important in that world. The man boy who took over my former church immediately had his title changed to “lead pastor”. But there were no other pastors. There was a youth minister a children’s minister and an education Minister. As all were replaced their titles changed with the word pastor not minister. I mean it’s not that big of a deal until you look at a pattern in the entire movement. Evidently the title ‘lead pastor” gives them street cred for moving up in the movement.

Thanks to Ed Setzer, former church planting expert for LifeWay, all came to realize that the title “teaching pastor” means they do not have to interact with the peasant pew sitters. It’s like a code for the party apparatus, comrade. Just don’t ask questions and pay your dues.

@ Julie Anne:

“LOL at Dee telling Deb to check her text messages. I literally LOLed.”

More insider stuff? 🙂

Lydia wrote:

the title “teaching pastor” means they do not have to interact with the peasant pew sitters. It’s like a code for the party apparatus

It is also a biological code. The “Youth and Family Pastor” becomes “Youth and Family Director” when held by a female.

“Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.” – Acts 2:41, NKJV

Was Peter a pastor to these souls or just a talking head? He clearly could not know everyone by name as our capacity as humans–sociologically speaking–taps out at around 150 (if you look at the literature).

Just something to consider.

I think there is a place for leadership at these larger churches. That does not excuse poor leadership or unwise over-commitments as Platt seems to be doing here.

It is true that to have a pastoral relationship, the congregation or ratio needs to be 150:1. However, I can tell you as a senior pastor type that it’s hard to find the funding to hire enough pastors to make that a reality. This is a problem that cuts both ways.

Arnold Smartarse wrote:

Well, I think it’s clear what the problem is. It seems to me that you’re all just looking for the perfect church.
What I would say is, if you ever find the perfect church, don’t join – you’ll spoil it.

No worries, Arnold. Churches have nothing to fear from me! I embrace imperfection.

I agree with pretty much all the critique here…. With one exception: If I was a pastor, I can understand taking 20-25 hours for study and sermon preparation. I would also spend the other 20-25 hours getting to know the people and doing visitation-type activities.

I think we see a lot of cases where pastors shy away from becoming “friends” with the people in their church. It is like they think they are crossing some sort of line if they drop their guard and form genuine relationships. There is no excuse for the lack of shepherding, love, and caring that we are seeing in the modern church. I believe they will be held accountable.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

… final sermon at “The Church at Brook Hills” today and he stated he still has the dream of going on mission to Nepal.

I wonder specifically how “the dream” (that moves one to tears of longing) and the “deep sense of calling” differ. Couldn’t one set up some form of webcast in order to preach_the_gospel in Nepal or anywhere else?

It so happens we know a couple hereabouts who spent several years living in Nepal – indeed, but for a specific unforeseen family commitment (I’m deliberately being vague as I’ve not asked their permission to share their story) they might still be there. I’m sure they could help. Incidentally, they didn’t go there to preach the gospel as such. They went to provide medical expertise and other practical support to Nepalese men and women while they preached the gospel. The Nepalese believers don’t seek expenses-paid work jollies or international trips, or book deals. The church there is made of people like us; it’s not free of difficulties or personalities. But they serve others, and visit the sick. And, while they’re about it, lay hands on and pray for them.

Our friends are grounded, thoughtful and medically qualified; and not remotely given to sensationalism or exaggeration. They are also quite able to live in the tension where not everyone is miraculously healed. But they brought back many well-researched case studies of people who were. I’m sure they could help Mr Platt find a fulfilment of his dream.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

They went to provide medical expertise and other practical support to Nepalese men and women while they preached the gospel.

…well, and they themselves explained the gospel when the occasion demanded. But you know what I mean: they didn’t go there predominantly to be public speakers.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

…well, and they themselves explained the gospel when the occasion demanded. But you know what I mean: they didn’t go there predominantly to be public speakers.

To be fair to Platt, in his final sermon I referenced he actually made a strong plea for Christians to go to different countries not as professional missionaries, but as workers with regular jobs who can spread the Gospel through normal contacts and also assist to strengthen local churches. I believe this is the way missions should be viewed and accomplished. I have long been an advocate of this. The ironic thing is that the 9Marx pastor in the town of Fujairah (a smaller town on the east coast of the UAE) wrote an article that was published on the 9Marx website that was bemoaning the fact that there are too many missionaries. His view was that too many immature Christians are going overseas and they cause lots of problems. He basically made it sound like unless you were “Elder” material you shouldn’t be a missionary. I disagree.

These pastors do a lot of fund raising in the USA, selling themselves as making a huge impact on the muslim world for the cause of Christ. They actually have a very limited impact. What their job is, without exception, is pastoring a church for expats. The impact on the muslim world is accomplished very slowly through sincere friendships made through contacts by normal working people. These friendships take years to cultivate. The local church has an indirect impact in that it can serve as a place of training, fellowship, etc. for those working normal jobs in the community.

Divorce Minister wrote:

“Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.” – Acts 2:41, NKJV
Was Peter a pastor to these souls or just a talking head? He clearly could not know everyone by name as our capacity as humans–sociologically speaking–taps out at around 150 (if you look at the literature).

I get your point but you will also notice in Acts 2 that believers had all things in common, met daily in the temple and broke bread together in homes. We don’t know how intimately accquainted Peter and the other Apostles were with all the Jerusalem believers, but it sounds like their lifestyle would lend itself to knowing each other much better than today’s mega church pastor. When I attended a Sovereign Grace Church the pastors had their own small group! For whatever reason they didn’t feel comfortable mixing with the common folk. That probably should have clued me in to the fact that things were unhealthy there.

Also, someone up the comment ladder was mentioning campus churches where the pastor is only on the big screen. I totally disagree with that concept. There is an interesting discussion on this subject between Mark Driscoll, James McDonald and Mark Dever here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ukvHuwFzBA

As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with Dever’s viewpoint on this subject.

Again, I have no earthly clue why anyone would think it’s a good idea to take a word, “pastor” which appears only once in the singular in the entire New Testament, and then only fourth in a list of five giftings useful for the church, a word that is not explicitly defined in the Bible in terms of role, and make up a meaning for it out of whole cloth, defined as he one head person to be the primary teacher and CEO of a fellowship, big or small, to whom all, if push comes to shove, must ultimately submit. That is simply not a position that exists in the New Testament. Does not. So why do we continue supporting this made up role? Why do we continue attending fellowships that such a person presides over and wonder why things go wrong? Why do we all invariably say “Ah, but you don’t know my pastor, I love my pastor, he’s different.” Even assuming the best of him (or her), you’re just flat asking for it when you set up any sort of king position that does not exist in the New Testament. Why do we persist, neurotically supporting this model? Why are we so downright stupid?

The last time such a position existed was over 3,000 years ago, it was a special circumstance, it was explicitly ordained by the Lord Himself, and it was filled by one who was stated by God to be the most humble man in the history of the world. And yet, in spite of all that, that man led them in circles for forty years until everyone who’d started on the journey was dead and desiccating in the desert—and even that humble man himself blew it and died without entering the Promised Land. Again, I ask, what exactly makes anyone think their fellowship is somehow going to do it better that the most humble man in the history of the world? And to boot in the New Testament era when such single leader roles are absolutely no part of the New Testament? Why are we so stupid?

Is it common for Calvinist pastors to preach almost word for word Piper / MacArthurs sermons on the same exact texts? Bringing out the same exact thoughts / ideas?

The pastor has stated he spends 15 – 20 hours a week preparing his sermon…but in reading the comments above about how pastors will say that but just copy & paste other people I just found a sermon by MacArthur on Psalm 19 and it sounded exactly like the sermon my pastor preached a few weeks ago on Psalm 19.

The people in this church are very nice & supportive…but I’m starting to think it’s time to move on.

@ Todd Wilhelm:

Interesting, I always thought Platt was the dullard they sent on errands when they talked about the secret stuff.

Hmm-methinks my upbringing has given me an entirely different take on what the preacher should be. See, I grew up in the remoter parts of the domestic oilfields. Church was run, shepherded, pastored, whatever you want to call leading the flock by all of us. We called a man (we were SBC)to preach. Usually didn’t pay or didn’t pay much. We were an all volunteer army. But we didn’t expect him to know us all by name, succor us through the tough times of life, or somehow “be there” for us 24/7. He had his family and his oilfield job, and we were either adults or in families with adults.

So while I dislike Platt’s platitudes in general, I’ve no problem with him supply preaching for the church. (But seriously, 20-25 hrs a week on prep? Must be a slow reading inefficient thinker.)

Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

@ Law Prof:
Tradition, and anyone that questions tradition is a “liberal”, and we all know where that leads…

Yep, I am one of the “liberals” and it has created much exiling in my SBC life.

@ Jeffrey J Chalmers:
Plus, it has been my experience, that while this is way overly simplistic, there seems to two kinds of people: 1. Tell me want to do/believe, and I will do it, … I do not want to figure it my self… to much work… and, 2. Don’t you dare tell me what to do unless you have a reason that “I” approve. Of course there are many in between, but I continue to be amazed how many people do not put much thought into what they do and say….. our “immediate culture” is makin this worse…. so, having a “pastor” think for “me” is very easy..

Divorce Minister wrote:

“Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.” – Acts 2:41, NKJV
Was Peter a pastor to these souls or just a talking head?

IMHO – Peter was doing evangelism, like Billy Graham, for example, and not pastoring.

Paul, on the other hand, addresses pastoring in practicing detail, in some of the epistles.

If a “pastor” is not willing to serve the congregation through hospital visits and preaching funerals, then they are not tending to their flocks. If a “pastor” cannot take the time to officiate at a member’s wedding or to provide pre-marriage or marriage counseling, then that “pastor” has no business getting up and preaching a sermon on Sunday morning about the sanctity of marriage. Remember that the word Pastor derives from the Latin for Shepherd, if these “pastors” were employed as actual shepherds they would be lucky to have any sheep left after a week, they would either wonder away, be eaten by wolves, would starve to death or dehydrate, since they seem to believe that they are only supposed to do one job and not deal with the other responsibilities.

I have said for years, that the problem with many of these “pastors” is that they want to be Evangelists like Billy Graham, but they want the security of a permanent church. One reason that have always respected Billy Graham is because he knew that he was called to be an Evangelist not a Pastor. While he did pastor churches in his twenties, once he launched his Evangelism ministry he never again pastored a church, even though almost any church would have offered him any deal he wanted, because he knew he could not be an Evangelist and a Pastor without shortchanging the church he was supposed to be pastoring.

Lydia wrote:

If a merger is in the works (someone at SBC Today suggested that might be the case and was chided by a writer at SBCVoices for writing it which made me think it’s true) Ezell seems like the likely candidate.

Could be. Putting some pieces of the puzzle together, ISTM that Platt is being transitioning into Senior Pastor at McLean Bible, though obviously that announcement cannot be made just yet because Appearances and Propriety and Timing. The Teaching Pastor Part-time Unpaid 65% gig serves as a bridge to that and also keeps the McLean pewpeons sticky during the transition period between Senior Pastors which is always tricky. It’s also tricky if there is something messy with IMB and NAMB that is as yet undisclosed.

What Happened wrote:

what these guys are doing and see some of the connections.

The main trend I’ve seen over the past 20 years or so is that the Calvinist/Non-Calvinist divide at the top of the SBC does not seem to be an issue. In other words, ISTM that the Mohler faction has won that war. They seem to have united around pragmatic Authoritarianism and Complementarianism. Mohler does as he pleases, as far as I can tell.

We talk about the Pope and Pravda, but I think that’s because some of us have seen scary stuff.

@ Gram3:

Mohler and Company: The tweets from these guys add an extra dimension to the posts at TWW. You get character development, plot development and backstory.

Recently, a few of these guys were in Germany for a few days doing the Martin Luther tour. I don’t remember exactly who was there, but I remembered wondering how they could fill their other responsibilities and who was footing the bill. Their disregard for anything outside their circle was heartbreaking. There were more interesting and relevant things that I can’t remember from that story.

With Mac Brunson you see tweets about Lambert and Mohler and trivializing the impact of Irma on the community while whining about the minor ways it inconvenienced him personally. Just today he seems to throw a jab at Paige Patterson.

And, sometimes, you get the pleasure of seeing their petty responses to someone that they have no other way of harming. My post probably doesn’t do justice to the actual experience of reading them for yourself.

Incidentally, in the spirit of holding fast to that which is good, I’ll choose to remember David Platt for his superb goal for England against Belgium in the 1990 World Cup finals in Italy:

FaceTube clip of David Platt’s goal

#ThereMayBeMoreThanOneDavidPlatt

@ Nick Bulbeck:

Incidentally, Platt captained England on numerous occasions and his Wiki bio says the following:

The official England history regarded him as a tireless runner and tidy passer, leading by quiet example providing inspiration at a time when it was a rare commodity.

He was certainly a captain whom you could rely on to turn up and put in a shift when the team was under pressure.

Loren Haas wrote:

The big boys all use “research services” to do the heavy lifting.

This year I’ve been watching 5 churches that broadcast their worship live on Sundays. Often, they are on the same track, preaching the same series, with a slightly different title for each series. The messages were pretty much the same.

Tree wrote:

“The model in the New Testament was shared leadership.” You’re modeling New Testament now? In what respects? The “shared leadership” not taking full-time pay checks from their fellow believers, perhaps? Meeting in homes instead of large “church buildings”? Day-to-day leaders of the church living and working shoulder-to-shoulder with all the “one anothers”? Local believers who had plenty sharing personally with other local believers who had need? Personally collecting and sending funds from one local body of believers to a non-local body of believers who were in need? What about the way New Testament leaders and teachers apparently worked to provide their own physical sustenance, so they would not be burdensome on the believers, oh, say, tent-making, for example? That kind of New Testament model?
Or do you mean the Mega New Testament Church model, in which the large full-time staff are comfortably paid wages from the offering baskets of the local believers (believers that they must manage) especially the ones who are “sharing” leadership with them on a non-paid basis, fitting it around the hours they work to earn money to live. Could you quote me some specific passages on that? My concordance doesn’t include an entry for “paid pastor”.
I’m fine with paying staff, pastors, etc, but don’t insist there’s a New Testament mandate for the paid career program we see. Unless you show me some passages that demonstrate it was the norm. Please preface it with, “As the New Testament CLEARLY shows in XYZ…”

Dang, that was well said.

And when we take the word “pastor” and make of it a title and paid formal position rather than a gifting useful for service to others (which is all it appears to be in Eph 4), and when that position is essentially that of congregational CEO who is the head motivational speaker and (hopefully benevolent) king to whom all submit (rather than submitting one to another, and ultimately, of course, to Jesus), why are we surprised when we attract to that position those who are nothing more than entrepreneurial CEOs, vapid, idiotic motivational speakers, and little kings and God-haters who demand submission?

Why are we surprised at those results when we’re flat begging for them?

I don’t have a problem with the word “pastor” being used for clergy. Jesus refereed to shepherds and called Himself a shepherd a number of times.

However, I do think it represents something about care and compassion of the sheep and knowing them by name. Just being a preacher doesn’t make you a pastor. I also think it’s something all Christians should aspire toward, though I do believe all Christians are equal priests in a priesthood lead by Jesus. Anyone who claims the title of “lead pastor” or “head pastor” is usurping Jesus’ authority in the lives of believers.

Law Prof wrote:

why are we surprised when we attract to that position those who are nothing more than entrepreneurial CEOs, vapid, idiotic motivational speakers, and little kings and God-haters who demand submission?

I see you met the “pastor” at my former church.

Law Prof–I hear ya!

For the life of me I’ve never understood, either, why we think we need someone to hold our hands when someone dies besides the Body of Christ. Why we think the head guru can marriage counsel better than those in the Body who have successfully been married 40 plus years. Why if Aunt Tilly is sick we think the head shaman’s prayers are needed more than our next door neighbor sister or brother in Christ’s prayers?

Why we continue to metaphorically want a “father” clergyperson when Jesus Himself said a resounding no to that model?

Why we think we can somehow be in authority over anyone else spiritually?

I cannot see the “pastor” as all that in Bible. I do see the Body of Christ doing all those things, and more, but not paid clergy. I do believe the quickest way to clean up the Body is STOP the clergy/laity divide and go to the all volunteer movement. Learn from the Primitive Baptists and early Holiness folks (not today’s clergy model) and early Quakers (not today’s nonChristian version.)

We believers are all priests, Jesus is our high priest, and we were not supposed to embrace this pagan shamanism nonsense to begin with.

And when it goes badly we want to blame the clergy for not being Jesus to us. They are not supposed to be, as they are not supposed to exist.

But it is so much easier than getting off our collective duffs and doing our own jobs, huh?

Tree wrote:

Or do you mean the Mega New Testament Church model, in which the large full-time staff are comfortably paid wages from the offering baskets of the local believers…

Just like the Priests of the old Egyptian gods…

Alucius wrote:

Re: the 20-25 hour person thing.

For what it’s worth, I preach somewhere around 10 Sundays a year doing pulpit supply around my area. I’d say it takes me anywhere from 8-15 hours to put together a new sermon depending on my familiarity with the passage. 20-25 hours might involve something like translating the passage out of the original language, maybe?

Or to paraphrase Dilbert:
“One hour to download it from a ‘Research Service’ and trim off the labels, 19-24 hours to play ‘Doom’…”

What Happened wrote:

Lydia wrote:

My guess is there’s some bigger strategy going on. The trustee statement is rather curious, too.

“The Takeover Part II-Mohler’s Revenge”

After the Coup comes the Cleansing.

Lydia wrote:

@ Thersites:
I learned recently that these titles are very important in that world. The man boy who took over my former church immediately had his title changed to “lead pastor”. But there were no other pastors. There was a youth minister a children’s minister and an education Minister. As all were replaced their titles changed with the word pastor not minister. I mean it’s not that big of a deal until you look at a pattern in the entire movement. Evidently the title ‘lead pastor” gives them street cred for moving up in the movement.

Is there a bonus for adding “Lead Prophet” and/or “Head Apostle” to the title?

Last post was meant to be two separate, one responding to Muff, the other to Nick/Bombast/”God”

Law Prof wrote:

No liberal lefty here, in fact, not really political at all,

Actually, ‘liberal lefty’ functions only as temporary place holder for me. I’m all over the continuum insofar as views go. Here’s one that’s guaranteed to make my progressive brothers and sisters recoil in horror and get their boxers and panties in a dither every time:
I’m a firm believer in Capital Punishment.

Law Prof wrote:

Given my personal state, that’s not exactly comforting!

You might be surprised.

😉

Best regards,

God

@ Mandavilla:
I hear you. I’d love a sabbatical too.

I am surprised the IMB would go for this.

Also surprised MBC would go for this. MBC deserves a full time pastor.

IMB deserves a full time, fully engaged chief executive.

Muff Potter wrote:

Law Prof wrote:
No liberal lefty here, in fact, not really political at all,
Actually, ‘liberal lefty’ functions only as temporary place holder for me. I’m all over the continuum insofar as views go. Here’s one that’s guaranteed to make my progressive brothers and sisters recoil in horror and get their boxers and panties in a dither every time:
I’m a firm believer in Capital Punishment.

I’m big on capitol punishment, as in punishing the politicians who work at the capitol.

JYJames wrote:

Law Prof wrote:
one head person to be the primary teacher and CEO of a fellowship, big or small, to whom all, if push comes to shove, must ultimately submit. That is simply not a position that exists in the New Testament. Does not. So why do we continue supporting this made up role?
It evolved; a culture developed around it; rules and regulations; holidays and celebrations; the yearly church calendar; working people could show up, pay up, and leave; eventually the CEO posted a job roster for the volunteers; duties and titles; gender roles; power and access became linked to donated money; book$ and conference$ and web$ite$ and broadcast$; celebrity and status; trips and missions and safaris; etc. What does any of this have to do with God? Not a clue.

Yep, that’s it.

___

Free Ride: “Please, No Explanations Inside The MBC Church…”

hmmm…

Is Lon’s final act – his final ‘rock drop by event'(tm) to take MBC, its 25,000 people and the whole of the Washington D. C. area for a dark closeted stealthy ride into Calvinism’s Dystopian fake gospel?

huh?

Silence, as the cancer stealthy grows?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8xysVNigCsU

What?

(…another church bites the dust?)

SKreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

Has MBC been corrupted from ‘the simplicity of Christ’ ™?
(2 Corinthians 11:3)

Could b.

Not a sermon, just thought…

*
*

Bet your proverbial @zz, MBC is being played…

(sadface)

Sòpy
___
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nIBOG8BRcdY

🙁

—

linda wrote:

So while I dislike Platt’s platitudes in general, I’ve no problem with him supply preaching for the church. (But seriously, 20-25 hrs a week on prep? Must be a slow reading inefficient thinker.)

Even if he does prep his own sermons ……. there’s no way it could really take 20-25 hrs per week!!! With a seminary degree????
Please, I prepped lesson plans for 6 math classes per day (4 different grade levels) in way, way, way less time than that!

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Please, I prepped lesson plans for 6 math classes per day (4 different grade levels) in way, way, way less time than that!

I sincerely doubt that Platt has the mental acuity you have.

@ Thersites:

“I’m familiar with the loophole, it is another one of those things that violates my classical liberal sensibilities as does the property tax exclusion that no other non-profit enjoys.”
++++++++++++++++++++

i would love to see an accounting illustration, showing how much each tax payer in a pastor’s neighborhood has to contribute to cover the shortfall of the public services which the pastor enjoys and expects.

the same for a church facility.

pastors should see this and understand it.

only 1 church in my town would let me hold a musical recital at their facility. i called every single one. one person i talked to went to so far as to say “we can’t allow this, or else our tax-exempt status would be jeopardized”.

that is the hill to die on — protect their tax exempt status. deny the community access to their facility which they help sponsor with their tax dollars.

think of how useful the church facility could be to the community — instead of sitting closed up 96% of the week, it could be the locale for after-school tutoring, teaching english, teaching vocational skills, job counseling, a place for performing arts, plays, concerts, meals served to homeless people.

no — tax exempt status comes first.

i think most pastors are trained (whether by others or by self) to feel justified in being the recipient of tax breaks. i have a feeling it is an easy process. the realities of who bears the burden of the costs isn’t part of this training. i have a feeling it isn’t wondered about.

Law Prof wrote:

everyone who knows the Lord has a calling to the ministry, all of us are high priests, and every calling is of utmost importance

Agreed, especially when the pastor who is taking money from the church would claim to be more important than those putting the money in. This is not to argue against paid staff but it should certainly argue for much more humility than what is often demonstrated.

elastigirl wrote:

…only 1 church in my town would let me hold a musical recital at their facility. i called every single one. one person i talked to went to so far as to say “we can’t allow this, or else our tax-exempt status would be jeopardized”.

They’re either ignorant of the law or lying to you and blowing you off. Nonprofits are one of my fields of research. Of course, were they to turn it into a profit center and start renting it out for profit, that’d be different, but nothing in the tax code stops them from performing a community service like that.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Tree wrote:
Or do you mean the Mega New Testament Church model, in which the large full-time staff are comfortably paid wages from the offering baskets of the local believers…
Just like the Priests of the old Egyptian gods…

Wasn’t there some problem or other with Eli’s sons, taking the best parts of the sacrifices for themselves?

As I recall, that didn’t come out too well for them, or for their father.

Going back to the comments about receiving Communion. While I don’t know the names of even regulars, I probably recognize them, nor are we allowed (if we follow the church guidelines) to say names.) But, I try to see every person who comes to me as a long lost brother or sister. That has even helped me turn this “not quite the usual “parishioner into someone that I am truly glad to see every Sunday.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Even if he does prep his own sermons ……. there’s no way it could really take 20-25 hrs per week!!! With a seminary degree????
Please, I prepped lesson plans for 6 math classes per day (4 different grade levels) in way, way, way less time than that!

No pastor that is paid full-time could say that and be hired or kept on in a Baptist church. It’s a lie that endures because the congregations think that should be how much time a pastor spends on the sermon. It’s the most important part of the Baptist church, in the eyes of many. And often a committee wants Adrian Rogers in a church of 300. So many turn to sermon services and hide in their offices reading books or doing anything else but writing their sermon.

Did anything ever become of this at the IMB?

http://www.wadeburleson.org/2017/06/the-southern-baptist-international.html

“Pastor X called me by my names tonight when he handed me the bread. He said “Bill, this is Christ’s body, broken for you.” I have NEVER had anyone do that in communion before. He actually knew my name and used it.” My husband had tears in his eyes.

I love this story! This happens at my church too and it is lovely. (Communion servers switch around, so not every time, but it has definitely happened from the pastor. He makes a concerted effort to know people’s names. And he doesn’t mispronounce! Bless him).

@ Nick Bulbeck:

I am sure my staff are wondering why I laughed so loudly a moment ago. Incidentally, that is.

Law Prof wrote:

They’re either ignorant of the law or lying to you and blowing you off. Nonprofits are one of my fields of research. Of course, were they to turn it into a profit center and start renting it out for profit, that’d be different, but nothing in the tax code stops them from performing a community service like that.

Last Thursday night, my church hosted a community hearing about a city street-widening project in the immediate area which affected them among others. Presented by a city councilman and including several city engineers. In the parish hall of my church. Got a bit lively, but no legal or 501c3 problems.

“olks, find a church in which you have a real pastor, not a talking head who offers nothing different than a podcast Find a pastor who knows your names and will come and sit with you when you are in the hospital. Find a pastor who will do your funeral and not punt it to the third tier pastoral staff. Find a church in which the pastor knows you name and truly cares about you-not an abstract you who is just a part of a mass of faces. In oterh words, find a real church.”

Says it all.

I find it curious that those that are not Roman Catholic expect the preacher to function as the parish priest. He isn’t married in order to allow him to be the uberparent to the parish. The father. The one who dries your tears and holds your hand in the hospital and does your funeral and your weddings.

Many in the radical reformation rejected that idea as unbiblical. We all dry each other’s tears. We all hold each other’s hands in the hospital. We made funerals and weddings church events when they never were in Bible times. Many of us take seriously Jesus telling us to have no man as our father in that sense.

I don’t like Platt. Never did. Probably never will. But that doesn’t make him wrong for being basically a “supply preacher.” Actually, it is the Biblical model.

Spartacus wrote:

an abstract you who is just a part of a mass of faces

This phrase lacks, IMHO, just a single “e”.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Last Thursday night, my church hosted a community hearing about a city street-widening project in the immediate area which affected them among others. Presented by a city councilman and including several city engineers. In the parish hall of my church. Got a bit lively, but no legal or 501c3 problems.

That’s interesting. A church in my area was hosting some type of “Coffee House” service very late on Friday nights. Other businesses in the area complained that the “Coffee House” was not a legitimate church service because it was designed to attract young people and compete with their businesses. Therefore, the playing field needed to be levelized by having the church comply with certain business ordinances. I believe they prevailed.

Muff Potter wrote:

the property tax exclusion that no other non-profit enjoys.

I’m a liberal lefty too, and I think it’s high time to revamp the tax codes so that the loopholes are closed and that all non-profits (religious or no) must abide by the same rules…

Late coming to this, but I have some issues with property taxes in general and can see why that might be a needed exemption. Some are completely reasonable, and some would run any old church in an area that appreciated out of town. We have a property tax exemption for people over a certain age for that reason, and it isn’t allowed to be increased more than 5% a year.

Now, does pastor o’sittin’ around need a person ‘parsonage’ exemption up to 30% of his salary? Maybe not.

So, a bit of a frustrating afternoon/evening trying to instal jUnit on the Mac. Despite endlessly checking the classpath variable in bash_profile, and umpteen different variations thereon, I couldn’t get a test file to run (it took long enough to get it to compile).

🙁

Muff Potter wrote:

Which is why (for me anyway) labels behave more like a fluid than a solid.

To slightly turn the phrase, may your non-tribe increase.

Lea wrote:

Late coming to this, but I have some issues with property taxes in general and can see why that might be a needed exemption. Some are completely reasonable, and some would run any old church in an area that appreciated out of town.

I know of churches that have moved into an area and purchased an existing building. The building which was on the tax rolls is now removed causing a decrease in the tax base and higher taxes for others.

On the subject of tax: David Platt’s Radical Inc. (and also the Gospel Coalition and Ken Ham’s Answers in Genesis) are “non-profit 501c3 organisations”. I did a Google search on this and found that many other fundamentalists (whom I often disagree with) have heavily criticised churches and organisations that have signed up to 501c3. They allege that these “government churches” have sold their soul and their freedom to the State (according to their critics, the First Amendment already makes them tax exempt anyway). Their incorporation into 501c3 could have serious consequences for them if they are preaching against government legislation (eg. abortion, homosexuality or swaying opinion in favour of Trump over Clinton (or the reverse)). To be fair, I am not sure how accurate this information is but it is worth checking out.

Hope wrote:

We are disgusted that it’s gone neo-Cal and SBC. My husband said this evening that it’s like a plague and now even once-immune MBC is falling victim to it.

This plague has even crossed the Atlantic and come to the UK. I have mentioned the FIEC network in the UK and they are selling themselves out to the Go$$$pel Coalition. They promote their conferences, they sell books by Piper, Mahaney, DeYoung and the rest. Their national director promoted Thom Rainer’s miserable article on why pastors should not visit often which explains why the pastoral state of their churches was extremely poor when I attended. Their doctrines are like leaven – and Jesus warned us to beware of the leaven of the Pharisee’s and Sadducees. Some things never change.

Mr Platt aint got nuttin’ on Mr Crazy Buzy DeYoung. Full time pastor.TGC chairman. Seminary professor. PHD student. Books. Blogs. Conferences.

ZechZav wrote (quoting an established evangelical motivational speaker):

“I’m very upfront with my role to my church [sic]. I explain I can’t do funerals, visits, phone calls, or meetings. This leaves the door wide open for our congregation to see areas of leadership where they are needed, and to respond accordingly.”

I remember a quote from Rick Warren’s The Purpose-Driven Church in which he describes how often he hears pulpit professionals tell him, I just love to preach! Warren observes that this never impresses him, and that it raises the question of whether they love the people they’re preaching to as much as they love the rush of public speaking. At the risk of opening up a rabbit-trail of dislike for Mr Warren, he is at any rate correct on this, and he lifts the lid on something that needs emphasising much more often than it currently is.

A lot of nonsense is talked about people’s fear of public speaking. It’s true that not everyone likes it, but many people do. Preaching is fun. Standing up on a stage, being the only voice heard in a comfortably organised setting where everyone is explicitly there to hear you speak, is among the most seductively intoxicating pleasures anywhere in this life. It’s no wonder men want it for themselves; it’s no wonder so many idealistic, but ambitious and easily-seduced young men are both dazzled by those who find fame and fortune doing it, and want it for themselves.

The lure of preaching reminds me a great deal of Solomon’s “adulterous woman” in Proverbs 7, luring a “simple youth” to his destruction. The great irony is that, in their vast contempt for women, these young men are haplessly led (“like an ox going to the slaughter”) astray by preaching itself, the true “adulteress” in this scenario. And once fully addicted to the mind-blowing joy of preaching to a captive audience, who on earth wants to grub around in the tedious undergrowth of mundane serving of others?

@ ZechZav:
And there is now a “DidaskoFellowship” of churches which is about to set up a “Didasko Presbytery”. This is made up of churches that left the Churchn of Scotland over homosexual ordination/ marriage etc and other churches that either are or became independent within the Gospel Partnership group.

I came across the Disasko reference here.

http://anglicanmainstream.org/leaving-the-denomination/

When The Tron church heft the CofS their website said they were goingto join the International Presbyterian Church. That changed to an affiliation with an American Presbyterian group then that disappeared and the West Of Scotland Gospel Partnership arrived. Now we have Didasko.

Lowlandseer wrote:

When The Tron church heft the CofS their website said they were goingto join the International Presbyterian Church. That changed to an affiliation with an American Presbyterian group then that disappeared and the West Of Scotland Gospel Partnership arrived. Now we have Didasko.

Well, I think I can see what the problem is here. The Tron, and others (some of which are known to me directly) are looking for the perfect church network.

What I would say is, if they ever find the perfect church network, they shouldn’t join it because they’ll spoil it.

Yours sincerely,

Arnold Smartarse

@ Lowlandseer:

Abandoning the “Arnold Smartarse” joke for a moment (…!), there’s a church here in Stirling I know of that, as far as I know, has left the Kirk and gone independent; there are undoubtedly others locally I don’t know about. A lot of these groups are, to my mind, strongly analogous to the none/done population. They’re a kind of corporate “lone ranger Christian” (as the saying goes), having abandoned assembling together with anyone else locally, albeit trying to find some kind of belonging somewhere.

All of which probably sounds more dismissive than I mean it to. In fact I sympathise with them to a certain extent, and perhaps I should do so to a greater extent insofar as they not unlike me. At least they’re coming to understand that, whilst it’s relatively simple to join something, belonging is more complex.

Well, at least they will try and find you now or at least know your name

Lowlandseer wrote:

@ ZechZav:
Have you seen what their next conference is going to be?

Hmmm…is there NO one in the UK and/or Ireland who can speak at the FIEC Leaders’ Conference that an American has to be “imported”? Or is FIEC the T4G/TGC/9Marks beachhead in the kingdom? That makes me sad.

For all the problems which have been pointed out about SBC Voices, Dave Miller, et al, made sure that the speakers at the 2017 SBC Pastor’s Conference (the prelude to the annual SBC gathering/business meeting) came from “small” churches (< 500 members) and, though all were male, they were not all white.

Bridget wrote:

I wonder how much time he actually spends with his wife and children . . .

Even if he mostly avoids distractions from pesky parishioners and students, and mostly recycles and repackages his content, there’s still unavoidable meeting time with the church staff who tend the flock, grad assistants who grade the papers, TGC comrades, researchers, editors, publishers etc. And all the travel time. Can’t leave much time for family.

@ linda:

Does everything have to be done according to the Bible?
It’s a fair question.
What’s wrong for you may be right for another believer and vice versa.
Don’t get me wrong, the Bible is a great and wonderful thing, and as far as holy books go it has no equal. But I also think it has two drawbacks:

1) Not giving it the credence it deserves at one extreme.
2) And making way too much of it at the other.

In my opinion, the real trick is how much of that stuff do you (generic you) wanna’ extrapolate out the Bible’s way back when and try an’ make it apply in the here and now?

linda wrote:

We made funerals and weddings church events when they never were in Bible times.

Just because we are not catholic and they are no longer ‘sacraments’ doesn’t mean they cease to be important.

I think the problem is less than someone might be only delivering sermons than that they are being paid, essentially, a full time salary or a hefty salary and are refusing to do the traditional ministerial/pastoral duties. If I want to just listen to a sermon I can do that online. You could pull a gateway and just pipe them in. Why a building, and a ‘pastor’ if they are going to refuse to do any of the real work of the church?

___

“David Platt, An MBC (1) Teaching Pastor, Is Infected With Calvinism.” (Don’t let him infect you!)

hmmm…

The gospel [good news(tm) ] that Jesus presents in John 3:16, for those that are infected with Calvinism, is simply not enough.

huh?

You must have T.U.L.I.P., the doctrines of grace.

So What?

—> Well, Calvinism is not the gospel.

Bump.

(but David Platt thinks it is…)

Calvinism, it comes from John Calvin’s “Institutes Of The Christian Religion”; which is simply regurgitated 4th century Augustinian Gnosticism, a false gospel message.

SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!

(Don’t be fooled.)

What is Jesus’ gospel? : —> God so loved YOU that He sent His only Son, Jesus, that if YOU will ‘believe’ in Him, YOU will not perish, but receive God’s eternal life.

Believe in Jesus today, you’ll be very glad YOU did!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I4vnQc59N-w

(See the bible for details…)

ATB ❤️

*
*

KRunch!

Has MBC (1) senior pastor Lon Solomon proclaimed the suspension of Jesus’ gospel, and substituted Calvinism in its place?

hmmm…

Could b.

Not a sermon, just a thought…

(tears)

Sòpy
___
(1) McLean Bible Church, https://www.mcleanbible.org

🙁

—

@ Gram3:
I could not agree more!!!

@ Bill:
You are spot on except for the money. Lon Solomon rarely asked for money in my many years at McLean.

@ Abigail:

I hate that. Every church needs an actual pastor who actually is physically present and actually knows and cares for his people. One guy is not so indispensable and amazing that we need a video feed of him; it can be done by a real person in the location. If one person does happen to have a message that the church feels is important to be shared across all the campuses, then that person can travel around and deliver the message in person.

Just where can you find all these multitalented people who are biblical scholars who can do all their own research, have a commanding ability at teaching, are people persons who are adept at counseling and hand holding and socializing (three different things there) and who will work 80 hours a week for minimum pay and who refuse to delegate but do it all themselves?

And somebody please give me chapter and verse where it says that all these task skills need to be present in one person.

Dale Rudiger wrote:

Dave A A wrote:
Mr Platt aint got nuttin’ on Mr Crazy Buzy DeYoung. Full time pastor.TGC chairman. Seminary professor. PHD student. Books. Blogs. Conferences.
If I’m not mistaken, K. Deyoung is also a competitive masters runner. I ran in a 5k on Labor Day where he won the 40-44 division.

He sounds like a driven man. It makes me wonder what he’s running from. Running so fast, so frantically cramming his life full to overflowing, it doesn’t seem as if there would be any time left over to listen to a still small voice, among the least of these.

Sopwith wrote:

Calvinism, it comes from John Calvin’s “Institutes Of The Christian Religion”; which is simply regurgitated 4th century Augustinian Gnosticism, a false gospel message

Is this the same Augustine who is considered one of the fathers of the faith? Augustine of Hippo, author of The City of God?

I believe in the paid pastor role – a laborer is worthy of his/her hire. A shepherd is one who feeds. This feeding of the flock is via the Word of God and given out with a piece of oneself. It is both costly and enriching to do so.
The flock is right in holding its paid shepherd role accountable, sadly lacking today. This discussion so far has focused on ministry unto the flock, but Leviticus is full of “ministry unto the LORD.” I wrote the following a few years ago:

Nothing compares to knowing Him

No thing compares to knowing Him. No created thing compares to knowing Him. No science or study of created things compares to knowing Him – in short, theology over sociology (social sciences or created things).
We minister unto the LORD. Out of that tent of meeting comes the grateful and loving response of worship and service. We do not build service upon ministering unto others – created things cannot be our motivation. Moses and Joshua ministered unto the LORD; Samuel was ministering unto the LORD (trimming the lamps); Paul and Barnabas were ministering unto the LORD when the Spirit separated them unto Himself (Acts 13:2). One could have ‘successful ministry’ (cast out demons, heal, & build numerical flocks), yet be told to depart for He never knew you (Matt. 7). Everything is predicated upon knowing the LORD!
Insidious idolatry always tries to put the created thing ahead of the Creator. Many today are flocking to leadership seminars in order to learn how to fish from successful fishermen – sociological pragmatism, pop psychology, new models of ministry, and ad nausea. Our LORD has said, ‘Follow me and I will make you fishers of men.” Out of the tent of meeting, God will make you. This is not to say that valuable info can’t be gained from the study of created things. Where is most of one’s time spent? Does theology (study of God) take precedence in your schedule? Our forefathers knew that the study of God’s Word and prayer was the foundation for ministry. We have greatly improved our administration (add ministry) for which I am thankful. But it has come at the cost of ministry (unto the LORD, tent of meeting). Is there anyone who has a word from the LORD?
We are in great peril if our skills and talents exceed our spiritual character. For leadership (in Timothy and Titus) is predicated upon godly character traits and just one skill, apt to teach. God will make you into His image in the tent of meeting. The suffering of self-sacrifice in this tent of meeting will produce the godly character necessary for ministry unto the LORD, and then unto others. Those who know Christ (theo) best are better suited to ministry, not those who know sinners (socio) best.
The worth of something is predicated upon its cost. If we hope to reveal the worth of God’s love to others, what has it cost us? If it is only value-added, the world will view us as self-interested and just another organization of created things bent in upon itself. If we show the world what a high cost we are willing to pay for God’s love, the world might be able to look outside the order of created things and see a Hope that they would be willing to pay the cost for. Who will pay the cost as a revelation of the worth of God’s love? Count it all joy to pay the cost and reveal His worth! Nothing compares to knowing Him!

dee wrote:

To our readers
Apparently this post is getting a lot of play out there. I have been hearing from a few folks. Take this opportunity to tell these supposed *pastors* what you think a pastor should be.

Our church is currently seeking a new pastor and articles like this are extremely useful to help us figure out what is/isn’t a pastor! Platt is clearly NOT a pastor. Guest speaker or consultant perhaps, but not a pastor. Reminds me of our former YRR pastor who told us he didn’t come here just to “serve, serve, serve all the time!” Still scratching my head over that one! Thanks!

ishy wrote:

Having been in SBC churches for 20 years, I can honestly say that most megachurch sermons are shallow and quite devoid of teaching of Scripture.

The same is true for many ARC churches. Much of the sermon is basic storytelling. I actually timed it once. In a 35 minute sermon, how much time would you think was spent either reading from the Bible or explaining with those versus meant? About 3 minutes. They also repeat the same series of sermons at the same time each year, and the series are the same ones that you’ll hear at other Arc churches. Deep stuff like At the Movies or You Asked for It.

Lea wrote:

ishy wrote:
Having been in SBC churches for 20 years, I can honestly say that most megachurch sermons are shallow and quite devoid of teaching of Scripture. Nor do they ever get any deeper.
//
In many of them, and also non-denoms, they are both shallow AND long.

I know, I mean, how many golf stories can one hear?

Lea wrote:

ishy wrote:
I know, I mean, how many golf stories can one hear?
Or insipid video series made by the pastors wife/youth group/whatever?

But who else is going to feature that boring hallway that nobody ever uses?

Lowlandseer wrote:

@ ZechZav:
Have you seen what their next conference is going to be?
https://fiec.org.uk/events/event/leaders-conference-2017

That saddens but not surprise me.

Law Prof wrote:

ishy wrote:
…most megachurch sermons are shallow and quite devoid of teaching of Scripture. Nor do they ever get any deeper. Because those are more entertaining, particularly to a TV audience.
Have you considered that it’s because most megachurch pastors care very little about Scripture, as that’s just not the point? They care about as much about the Bible as they do about the truth, about justice, about the Fruits of the Spirit, about Jesus, and about those who have been made in His image.

I don’t disagree. But since we were talking about why hire a teaching pastor who is already employed full-time elsewhere for only the purpose of giving sermons, and okrapod asked why can’t pastors and staff be diversified. They can. But now most megas treat their head/lead/teaching pastor as the answer to continued success as a church and I think it’s a reason for this very unhealthy obsession with Christian celebrity pastors.

They say they study and write sermons for 20-25 hours a week. They say they write their own sermons. They say the importance of the sermon is a reason they can’t have any interaction with the congregation. I think it’s all bogus. So yes, I do think they don’t really care about the other things, too. But those things are not what they are hired to do in megachurches.

dee wrote:

To our readers

Apparently this post is getting a lot of play out there. I have been hearing from a few folks. Take this opportunity to tell these supposed *pastors* what you think a pastor should be.

I do think ministry of the Word takes precedence over pastoral care. Both should be evident, though. One is an outgrowth of the other.
I’m a newbie here, so I’m reluctant to put up a lot of text, but I do think this is applicable to the discussion. I felt the LORD give me this analogy/story line a few years ago concerning juggernaut corporate bakeries and local artisan bakeries. For those across the pond, ConAggerback is word play on ConAgra and Saddleback Church, and General Willow Mills is play on General Mills and Willow Creek.

The Forgotten Mandate: Feed My Sheep or Putting Bread on the Table

David said, “Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies.” In the tabernacle was a table with showbread and a candlestick. The bread is indicative of the Bread of Life, and the lighted candlestick indicates someone’s home – the presence of the Holy Spirit. Oh, that we would prepare bread for our congregations and that the Holy Spirit would be present to illuminate the Bread! We should consider what ought to be on the table in the tabernacle.
In recent years we have made great strides in add ministry; that is, administration. This should not be confused with ministry. Improvements in administration were sorely needed and we have become better stewards.
Think of a bakery. One can improve the business by power of advertising and might of distribution. Marketing a need for the bread will create a desire for those who feel that by purchasing the bread, they too will be beautiful, successfully suburban with beautiful spouse and kids under blue skies – like the advertising. My life is so much better now that I have the bread/dough (double entendre). More customers flock in/buy in to the marketing strategy and feel that the product enhances their life – it’s even enriched and fortified. Madison Avenue helps to appeal to the wants and desires of the target audience.
Next, improvements in distribution will enable more people to have access to the bread: more markets and bigger market-share. More trucks and drivers, better on-line delivery and inventory control systems all make for increased efficiencies. Most bakeries by this time will start feeling the cash flow pinch. Yes marketing is creating more customers, and increased investment in distribution helps to deliver the product and access to more markets; but a shifting of resource allocation and cost-cutting measures are needed. No longer is this business an artisan bakery, but a big time corporation.
Uniformity of the product and driving down of the raw cost of goods is next on the agenda. Rather than whole-wheat flour with all its bran and uneven texture, enriched bleached white flour makes a uniform product – and its cheaper and plentiful from corporate granaries that have their own juggernaut marketing and distribution channels. They will help the bakery improve marketing and distribution: Corporate granaries such as ConAggerback and General Willow Mills. No longer are the artisan bakers needed – too costly; standardize the formula and hire those who will not think but just follow the dictates of the formula – ‘how to do it.’ It’s soft and glides down the throat – kids love it with the crust cut-off. Its soft texture conforms to you when you grasp it! Its high-glycemic index gives a rush of exhilaration as it floods into the bloodstream like pure sugar. You can feel it! The shareholders are proud of their new corporate bakery enterprise.
Soon the hospital evidences a growing problem. More and more of the community are showing up with poor eyesight and bad circulation in the feet. Ever wonder (Wonder Bread) why the lame and the blind are mentioned so often together in scripture? They are the symptoms of diabetes – an epidemic in our generation. The quick exhilaration of excitement and energy packaged with brightly colored dyes is an easy sell to the consumer. It leaves in its wake dis-ease. How many of our churches are creating spiritual diabetics? – unable to endure sound doctrine of bitter, the roughage of whole bran, the artisan heavy-bread with its uneven texture and low-glycemic index but a lasting satiety which sustains the hungry soul! The blind are unable to discern and the lame are unable to walk by faith. Do we then marginalize the spiritually handicapped after we’ve sold them the uniform white, conforming to you, mass produced bread? Do we condemn them after we have taken our profit (Ezek. 34:1-10)?
The wonder of it all is that God still honors His Bread. Even during a famine, the lowly, needy, hungry lepers find bread in another camp (1 Kings 7:9) – the presence of their enemies, and proclaim the “Good News” that will end the famine. It is ended, neither by might of appeal (marketing) nor power of delivery systems, but by My Spirit, says the LORD. Is it any wonder why those of discerning tastes are leaving the brand of loyalty and switching bakeries? We ought to consider again what we are putting on the LORD’s table and to who we are accountable: the hungry souls, and the One who blesses, breaks, and gives.

dee wrote:

Platt, unfortunately, was merely a podcast in person.

What a perfect way to capture the video presenter multi-site phenomenon. As much as I fault 9Marks, one of the things that Mark Dever got right was a panel discussion at SBTS many years ago about multi-site churches. At least I think it was Dever, though it may have been one of his lieutenants. Anyway, he was a clear advocate for personal pastors and not video presenters at multi-sites.

“Podcast in Person” reminds me of the scary movie. Pod People do not need more than a podcast, and are very easy to manage. Real people need real pastors who walk with them through real life like Jesus did, not an image projected on a screen that is scripted and is not real. Those of us who have seen behind the curtain know that it is not real. What never ceases to amaze me is that many who know that do not care as long as they get to participate in the fantasy! Madness.

ZechZav wrote:

I don’t understand why they want to borrow celebrities.

People do what they think will achieve the goal that they have. As you said, there are clearly gifted men and women in the UK equal to the Anyabwiles and the others. So then why else? The Anyabwiles can draw a bigger crowd? Human nature says yes. The organizers can gain favor with the Gospel Glitterati by inviting them to the conference? Human nature says yes. Generally, human nature is fairly predictable once we give up the notion that we ourselves or our group is somehow exempt.

Using the same idea to answer another enigma, why did Mark Dever himself give up the entire 9Marks system in order to protect C.J. Mahaney? I think the answer lies in two seemingly unrelated things sometime ~1997 when 9Marks took off and when SGM became “Reformed.” C.J. gained entrance to the respectable theologians club, and Dever gained a proven marketing program. I think a marriage of convenience took place, and human nature made sure that it stayed that way when things became very inconvenient a few short years later. But maybe that’s just me trying to figure out how in the world the Odd Couple ever got together and why Dever sold out what he claims to believe so fervently.

How interesting would it be if someone at the UK conference asked Thabiti or one of the 9Marks reps why Mahaney was exempted from church discipline when others are subject to it?

More than anything, I want a church that’s actually about God.

okrapod wrote:

I have heard so much drivel from the pulpits over the years that they probably won’t even have to use formaldehyde, or whatever, on my body; the drivel will be enough preservative.

LOL, and unfortunately true.

Bridget wrote:

TEDSgrad wrote:

I do think ministry of the Word takes precedence over pastoral care. Both should be evident, though. One is an outgrowth of the other.

I disagree here. All believers have access to Jesus, scripture, and the power of the Holy Spirit. We do not “have” to have a man to minister the Word to us from a pulpit on Sundays; teachers – yes, pastors (caregivers) – yes, administors – yes, elders – yes, etc.

As far as one being the outgrowth of the other. I have not seen that to be true in most churches with most Teaching on Sunday Elders.

Hi Bridget,
All believers do have access, yes.
I don’t know what triggered you to interpret ‘have to have a man’ from my text. Please let me know so that I don’t continue to trigger you or others. My own mother has preached in the pulpit a time or two, or three…

My Word as precedence comes from conviction that faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Who God is, and what He has done in Christ on our behalf takes precedence. Therefore, Who God is and what He has done is paramount for the faith community. Faith is a response to God’s Self-revelation. The Creator takes precedence, and His revelation of Himself is central. This is Creator-centric.
Worship is the response to a revelation of Who God is. It is our reasonable service in light of Who God is. It contains: praise to God, sacrifice to God, ministry to others, acts of kindness, loving one another, and many more. Pastoral care fits, here. Ministry to believers is creature-centric.
Without a revelation of Who God is, the people will run wild, unrestrained. They will respond with worship to the created thing – Idolatry. So a proclamation of Who the object of our faith is, gives focus to our faith, and direction to our worship (which includes pastoral care). Our main motivation is Who God is, and that informs us as to how to love one another (because He first loved us).

Now every believer does have access, but in the church gathered there is order of service (not chaos) and some invested authority (don’t want to debate who and how much, just that it exists).

I use Word, revelation, and proclamation almost inter-changeably. But they are the foundation to faith and give definition and motivation to service (in light of His great love). Faithful proclamation of God’s Word is essential, because it is upstream of faith and worship/service. To shepherd is literally ‘to feed.’ Also, the church scattered (during the week) is where much evangelism and service takes place, because they have just been fed on God’s great love.

I hope this clarifies why the preaching of the Word is central.

Gram3 wrote:

How interesting would it be if someone at the UK conference asked Thabiti or one of the 9Marks reps why Mahaney was exempted from church discipline when others are subject to it?

In the UK there has been a complete silence from UK church leaders about Mahaney. To be fair most denominations have never heard of him as the lawsuit has not received any media coverage over here. But the church leaders who are in bed with the Gospel Coalition and selling books by Mahaney himself, or DeYoung, Carson, Piper and the others really should know better. I wrote to one FIEC church elder who stocks books by Mahaney and he fobbed me off with “I am busy at the moment I will look as time permits” and that was over a year ago. In my experience, this is a typical response of FIEC church leaders and it is a cowardly of saying “I don’t want to know!” So sadly I doubt that any of them would care.

TEDSgrad wrote:

To shepherd is literally ‘to feed.’ Also, the church scattered (during the week) is where much evangelism and service takes place, because they have just been fed on God’s great love.

This is odd to me. I don’t view Christians (during the week) as scattered. I don’t believe we are fed on Sunday morning in some special way. As a Christian of many years, Christ feeds me in many ways, in many places. I have heard nothing new from a pulpit in many years.

Also to Shepherd means –

a person who herds, tends, and guards sheep. 2. a person who protects, guides, or watches over a person or group of people. 3. a member of the clergy.

To me, it’s not mainly about feeding. It is much more than that and there are many, many Christians who do this quite well without drawing any attention to themselves at all.

@ refugee:
Yes but the issue of him and Calvin being promoters of Valentinian Gnosticism was put to bed a long time ago.

TEDSgrad wrote:

Thanks for the man/human explanation. I try to use gender inclusive language, but I don’t bend over backwards. Sometimes I think it insults women’s intelligence that ‘man’ can’t be a corporate term.

I don’t try to use gender inclusive language. As many genders as people are claiming now there is no way to be ‘inclusive’ much less to do so with any common sense at all.

Jack wrote:

Arnold

As does C H Spurgeon, the author of the quote. This is it in its entirety. Throws a different light on things.

“If I had never joined a church till I had found one that was perfect, I should never have joined one at all; and the moment I did join it, if I had found one, I should have spoiled it, for it would not have been a perfect church after I had become a member of it. Still, imperfect as it is, it is the dearest place on earth to us.”

I actually did. Joined a lovely little church which felt like family the moment I walked in the door.

dee wrote:

Tekva wrote:

I am a member of MBC…but now a former member as of today.

Look for a church in which the pastor knows your name and will sit by your bedside when you are in the hospital. Platt, unfortunately, was merely a podcast in person.

Yeah, I think I get your point, and I appreciate the response. I just see things through a very different lens. Maybe it comes from living through two church blow-ups, and narrowly avoiding another, but I am nervous when a church is seen as the focal point of anyone’s spiritual life. Or when the weekly sermon is the main source of our biblical sustenance.

And, I don’t see church life as being an effective way to keep theologians from getting off-track. The ESS controversy is a great example, but there are more.

And while I’m at it, I’ve been on enough church building projects to know that buildings and public meetings aren’t necessarily blessings. The early church did without them for centuries, and was pretty effective. The same is true of the underground church today, especially in China.

So, I might be jaded.

C H Spurgeon : “The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach today, or else be false to my conscience and my God.”

C H Spurgeon : “There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace (ed. aka T.U.L.I.P.) than I do …”

___

Charles Spurgeon’s : “Defense Of Calvinism” :
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/A%20Defense%20of%20Calvinism%20by%20Spurgeon.pdf
__

Lea,
I understand what you’re saying, but there are few legal resources for church conflict. The legal profession just balks. My father lost his position due to lies by officials above the local church and was told to vacate the parsonage with 60 days notice culminating Dec 31. Job and home gone in one fell swoop. That was a while back, though, when parsonages were still en vogue.

GSD,
Yeah, I have had to have church at home on three different occasions in life. It was never my preferred choice, though. I do it for my housebound parents on Wed. May you be richly blessed.

TEDSgrad wrote:

Yeah, I have had to have church at home on three different occasions in life.

You are the church. You happen to gather at a home, is how I view this.

@ Sopwith:
Mahaney was never a Calvinist, much the same as these New Calvinists aren’t either.

@ okrapod:

But the salvation of the world has a purpose beyond that. John 3:16 God so loved the world….God loves us all and wants us to spend eternity with him. Yes mission is important but it is the means, not the end.

magnus wrote:

at MBC platt was speaking about salvation and missions.. and i quote “reason you were saved is to go on missions”

I usually dread listening to missionaries speak, anticipating the guilt trip that they sometime put on other people for not being as extreme and missional and sacrificial as them.

I find it interesting that Paul never did this, at least in his letters. He never chided believers to get out there, knock on doors, join me on mission, serve your community, hand out water bottles at marathons, plant a community garden. He always seems to focus on relational aspects, having a good marriage and family life, caring for each other in the church… Never a guilt trip about not being missional enough.

Because healthy community is missional. People want to belong.

okrapod wrote:

Zechzav wrote:
Yes mission is important but it is the means, not the end.
So if it is ‘the means’ then why are people upset when Platt says that people need to get with it regarding the means? Why would people say ‘Jesus loves me’ and just stop there; where is the rest of the sentence as to what that means to be loved by God?
I think there is more going on. I think that people are more comfortable with ‘Jesus loves me’ (a song) than they are with ‘keep my commandments’ (a direct quote from the mouth of Jesus) and some folks find it easy to play the two off against each other in order to avoid whatever they want to avoid and take advantage of whatever they want to take advantage of. This gets dicey when one looks at Jesus’ own descriptions of the judgment, with Himself as the judge, and He spells out what people whom He knows look like in their behavior. It seems perfectly obvious to me that He wants more when it comes to eternity than just hanging around and thinking pleasant thoughts, so to speak. And it is He himself, the Jesus of ‘keep my commandments’ who says to some ‘depart from me..’. He may well ‘love’ all but he has said that not all survive the judgment. If one is to fulfill the requirements of love, then it is not enough that God loves us but we must also love God, the first and greatest commandment. If we then love God we will/should obey God, or so Jesus said regarding himself. Those things cannot be torn apart and pitted against each other; they are part and parcel of the whole.

This is true. I believe Jesus summed this up best when he followed up the first greatest commandment with the second, to love your neighbor as yourself.

And this is wonderful . . .

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

I find it interesting that Paul never did this, at least in his letters. He never chided believers to get out there, knock on doors, join me on mission, serve your community, hand out water bottles at marathons, plant a community garden. He always seems to focus on relational aspects, having a good marriage and family life, caring for each other in the church… Never a guilt trip about not being missional enough.
Because healthy community is missional. People want to belong

___

Sneak-Peek: “R U Representing Christ, Perhaps?”

Lowlandsēēr,

Hea,

hmmm…

The real eternal issue before us is not some form of Calvinism, but Christ!

huh?

“When people grasp us too strongly, either with their love or with their dependence, we are intuitively conscious that they are not looking to God, and we become paralyzed in our efforts to help them. United prayer, therefore, requires that the one for whom we pray be looking away from us to the Lord Jesus Christ, and we together look to Him alone” (1)

What?

…respectfully, as you anticipate heavenly things, make every effort to be found at peace with The Lord Jesus, and that pressing towards being without spot or blemish, growing in the grace and knowledge of our Savior Jesus Christ…

The grace of Our Lord Jesus be with you!

SKreeeeeeeetch!

Please remember the Bible directly implies: All men will die in their sins unless they are converted, so when the Bible talks about the new birth(2), it is very, very important.

“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Look to Him & His word and learn ‘Honorable’ ‘Little Christ'(tm) , share what you’ve learned with others…

(grin)

(Please see your bible for details…)

“The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. Isa. 40:8

Lift up your voice mightily, O Christian, bearer of Jesus’ good news; lift it up, do not fear. Say to the cities of America, “Believe in Jesus Christ and be saved!

Yahooooooo!

ATB ❤️

Sòpy
___
(1)http://biblehub.com/library/simpson/days_of_heaven_upon_earth_/april_22_christ_is_the.htm
(2) The born-again experience: i.e. “A spiritual birth which transforms someone into a true Christian, a saint, by the activity of the Holy Spirit.” See Matthew 3:11; John 3:3-8; 7:39; 14:17; 20:22; Acts 2:38; Romans 8:2-26; 14:17; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 3:16; 6:11-19; 12:13; 2 Corinthians 3:3; 17-18; Galatians 3:2-5, 14; 4:6; Ephesians 1:13; 3:16; 4:30; 5:18; Philippians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:14; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 6:4; 1 Peter 1:2,22; 1 John 3:24; 4:13; Jude 1:20.
*
Notes:
http://www.christianebooks.com/TheGrahamFormulaDownload.pdf

😉

—

What I find today, is the Church Growth Leaders have confused worship with mission. And the buzz word ‘missional’ has taken over their thought process. One can have a missions agency and not be a church. They know the church won’t stand for taking away the Worship Service, so they gut it of all meaning and keep the label.
We are to go into all the world and BE witnesses. This is a predicate. Of course, we are to do stuff, but the text never says we are to do witnessing – as if it is apart from who we are.

The Holy Spirit’s indwelling Presence IS our witness.

It’s much better to have the Holy Spirit glory Christ in me, than I trying to be ‘intentional’ about it. Of course, we need the leaders to tell us what all this do-do looks like (imperatives, again) – it fills all their conferences and publishing. But they can never cover all of life, and if the manual was so complete, then we would not have the freedom to go and do. A scripted life is not freedom.
If you are “in Christ” and have the Holy Spirit, then you ARE a witness and an ambassador. One’s talents, skills, personality are all part of that, and you do not have to suddenly come out of your introvert cocoon to become an extrovert Pied Piper.

This is why ecclessiolgy and philosophy of ministry is so important. Definitions are all changing under our feet (the boundary markers are being moved). The Church gathered to worship is a witness that God indwells His people. Anointed proclamation shows that God speaks when all the idols of our culture are deaf and dumb. If we would just let God be God, He would draw all men unto Himself. Where is my intentionality in all that? – by BEING in right relationship with Him.
If God is truly visible in our midst, we will not have to build bridges to the community; they will build them to us to get to God. We could show them how to have a relationship with God by being preoccupied with that, ourselves – separated unto Him. Be Holy, for I am Holy!

okrapod wrote:

I don’t try to use gender inclusive language. As many genders as people are claiming now there is no way to be ‘inclusive’ much less to do so with any common sense at all.

And the “Global Replace String ‘man’ With String ‘person'” approach gets pretty silly.

GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

I usually dread listening to missionaries speak, anticipating the guilt trip that they sometime put on other people for not being as extreme and missional and sacrificial as them.

Same here.
As JMJ over at Christian Monist would frequently point out, there’s a LOT of Guilt Manipulation in the church.

TEDSgrad wrote:

We are to go into all the world and BE witnesses. This is a predicate. Of course, we are to do stuff, but the text never says we are to do witnessing – as if it is apart from who we are.

I do believe I read ‘somewhere’ about how can they believe in Him of whom they have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher, and how can they preach except they be sent… That sure sounds like witnessing to me.

If you love the Lord and truly follow the Lord, He will open opportunities where He wants you to be.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

They must have gone in in laparoscopically.

Yes, Hug. It was an emergency appendectomy, but we got to the hospital fast and it had not ruptured. Dr. said it was about to go, but he got it out without the mess.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Sorry you had to go through that, Hug. Anything bursting in there makes surgery, clean up, and recovery much more extensive. My son is also in his prime (26) which certainly helps recovery.

___

Lost In Space: “Gospel Replacement In Progress…”

hmmm…

How long will it take the 13-25 thousand people who attend services at the McLean Bible multi-plex Church in Northern Virginia on a regular basis to realize they are being had by preachers who are now pushing stealth Calvinism, and hanging out with and supporting 501(c)3 organizations that do?

___
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=llNnlE6Hbuc

🙁

—

Ok, maybe I’m missing something but he’s offering to preach for free.

Is this confirmed that he is doing it for free? Most pastor positions are salaried.

The church is the Bride of Christ, it is a place to make disciples and make the Gospel known. It is not a place where 1 man is in charge. It is the body of Christ.

Shouldn’t we all be spending time with Christ, studying? I spend 7-10 hours studying God’s word and I am not preparing a sermon. I am preparing myself to disciple others. The Church is there to train us, teach us. It is not a place for mature Christians to sit in the back and ask 1 man “what can you do for me?”. We are there as a BODY to ask “what can we do to GLORIFY GOD?”

@ TEDSgrad:
Wonderful

@ Sopwith:
Sopy, you’ve been too long on the mushrooms I think.

___

“A Proverbial Shortcut To Mushrooms, Perhaps?”

hmmm…

“I think we should get off the road…” (1)

(sad face)

Lon knows quite clearly that the people of McLean Bible Church don’t throw stones…

They drop them!

ATB

Sòpy
__
(1) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3mvDQWOQ2iI

;-(

—

CJ Mahaney and Larry Thomsak (both names probably spelled incorrectly) were very instrumental in my early Christian growth with the TAG meetings in D.C. Really loved those meetings. I don’t know much about them beyond that — once TAG disbanded I lost contact — but a friend of mine did attend CJ’s church and said he was a Calvinist. Don’t know. If so, I’m so sorry to hear it.

@ Lowlandseer:

Richard Norman wrote:

Do you think the Apostle Paul really knew the names of the “thousands who were added to the church daily” or that he made hospital visits? At MBC we have a large pastoral staff who make hospital visits, perform weddings and funerals, etc. David is a teacher to the world, literally, online, through his books, through the IMB, etc. He is now “our teaching pastor” and I am thrilled God brought him to

David is no Paul. There is no such thing as a teaching pastor in scripture. As far as being a teacher to the world, I hope the world reads scripture, knows Jesus, and does not believe everything that comes from David’s mouth or writings. They will be far better off knowing the Son of God.

@ AnonInNC:
I would like to say to all of you. I had no idea who David Platt was two months ago, until I started listening to his sermons. I grew up Church of Christ however; denominations mean nothing to me. After reading your comments I was deeply discouraged, wow this man must be seriously egotistical and really has no heart for the church body. Then I had to remember all the sermons I had listend to and how deeply moved I was by his heart for Missions and Jesus. So I went and prayed, then listened to his latest sermon and once again I was reminded possibly by the Holy Spirit how anointed this man is. have you guys even listened to his sermons?? Im not so sure God is so worried about all our acronyms..SBC, IMB, etc… Is not our mission unity in love… Making disciples, preaching the word to all nations? He is doing exactly this! We should be supporting not admonishing!

@ Paul:
You are one of the lucky ones if you can see through him. To others, it takes years, years during which lose sleep worrying about not doing enough social work and not being worthy of salvation.

As a former member of Brook Hills where David was once my pastor, I am concerned about this. David may be a great speaker, but he’s not a good people person in my opinion. He didn’t know our names in a 4000 member church. And that was his only job then. He once preached a sermon on Mother’s Day about biblical motherhood, and it was all about stay at home moms. When I emailed him asking to clarify if he believed working moms are disobeying God’s call, he forwarded my letter to an assistant to respond and I never really got a clear reply. He finally harped so much on Radical that my family left Brook Hills after 4 years, spiritually drained and exhausted. He was completely tone deaf to our concerns. I was thrilled to learn when he left Brook Hills and I personally don’t think he should be pastoring anywhere, frankly. It is not my place to question God’s call on this man’s life, but again, I have a lot of concerns about this. A lot of people love David Platt but I am not a fan, and the idea that he can lead the IMB and spend that much time on one sermon per week, while trying to raise a family and be a godly man, is astonishing to me. I will be very interested to see how long this lasts. He’s only been at the IMB for 3 years – I didn’t know it could be a part-time job.

@ Eric:
CountEric wrote:

@ Paul:
You are one of the lucky ones if you can see through him. To others, it takes years, years during which lose sleep worrying about not doing enough social work and not being worthy of salvation.

Count me among those who spent years spinning my wheels until I figured out I disagreed with David (what a concept! While he was at Brook Hills it was practically heresy to disagree with David.). I’ll never make that mistake again.

Jessica Steensland wrote:

@ AnonInNC:
I would like to say to all of you. I had no idea who David Platt was two months ago, until I started listening to his sermons. I grew up Church of Christ however; denominations mean nothing to me. After reading your comments I was deeply discouraged, wow this man must be seriously egotistical and really has no heart for the church body. Then I had to remember all the sermons I had listend to and how deeply moved I was by his heart for Missions and Jesus. So I went and prayed, then listened to his latest sermon and once again I was reminded possibly by the Holy Spirit how anointed this man is. have you guys even listened to his sermons?? Im not so sure God is so worried about all our acronyms..SBC, IMB, etc… Is not our mission unity in love… Making disciples, preaching the word to all nations? He is doing exactly this! We should be supporting not admonishing!

You can support him by experiencing him as your pastor for several years. See how you feel then.