John Piper Thinks That God Could Have Caused a Miscarriage Because a Dad Used Porn

God pardons like a mother, who kisses the offense into everlasting forgiveness.  -Henry Ward Beecher link

Recently, on Twitter, I saw a link to a concerning post titled No, John Piper, God Doesn’t Kill Babies Because Their Dad Looked At Porn written in 2016 by Benjamin Corey. It was his response to a post at Desiring God titled Ask Pastor John: Did My Lust Cause Our Miscarriage? 

Let me get this out of the way before I begin. Yes, looking pornography is a sin. Even worse, the filming of  pornography often involves human trafficking victims. In the near future, TWW will be unveiling a new project to help actual victims of human trafficking. Here is an informative article The Connection Between Sex Trafficking and Pornography which explores the links between the pornography industry and human trafficking victims. So keep in mind that pornography supports the enslavement of human beings as well. 

Let's get back to the question at hand. Did God kill an unborn baby because the baby's dad viewed pornography?

The trajectory of John Piper's argument at Desiring God.

  1. Does God discipline his children for their sin? Yes, he does. This is described, perhaps, most fully in Hebrews 12. He even speaks of bloodshed if necessary as the price we might pay for our sin. “
  2. In other words, God can view his children both as perfected by Christ and still in need of perfecting in this life. And we should take tremendous heart from his painful perfecting work as evidence that we are perfected.
  3. May that discipline come in the form of harm, even death, to others that we love, as well as ourselves? And the answer is yes, it may. This was certainly the case with David’s sin of adultery and murder with Bathsheba and her.
  4. I would certainly say in my own life, the most painful and humbling disciplining from the Lord has regularly been though the pain and suffering and sometimes death of those I love, rather than through any blows against my own body. (Piper is referring to himself)
  5. What should this person, this man, do if he believes that God has dealt him such a painful blow?
  6. We don’t need to be sure about the connection between our particular sufferings and our particular sins in this life, because the death of Christ is sufficient to forgive the worst sin in spite of the worst suffering.

God may be secretly punishing you for something you did but you can never be sure.

Piper's bottom line is quite clear. From what I read, he is saying that is entirely possible that God did kill that man's baby but that poor man can never know for sure. This makes it even worse. So, God kills a baby but He doesn't let you know if it was because of something you did?

Let me put it to you this way. When my daughter was 3 years old, she was diagnosed with a brain tumor and we were given a less than 10% chance of her survival. Do you think that God was punishing me for cussing out a driver that cut me off? Was God getting back at me for the times I disobeyed my mother when I was growing up? I could make myself crazy trying to figure out what I did wrong whenever anything awful happened to me. Even then,  I might not find a definitive answer. So, to be on the safe side, I guess he is implying that it is best to assume that God is punishing me whenever anything bad happens…Really? What does that say to us about God?

Do you not think that if God wanted to punish you for doing something bad, He would want you to know that up front? Why would He do something something so horrific, like killing a baby, without letting you know that you were the cause of His action?  Does this resemble the God that you know?

I know that John Piper is supposed to be some sort of big deal theologian but His view of God, in this instance, is disturbing to me. I do not believe that God is running around, killing babies and destroying Houston while playing a game of "Guess why I am furious with you?!"

Does God hurt those others we love in order to punish us?

What is even more disturbing is Piper's apparent belief that God is deliberately causing harm to friends of John Piper in order to punish John Piper for his sins. If this is truly the case, I would highly recommend that people stay away from Piper because Piper sins just like the rest of us. Did you know that Piper believes that God even kills beloved pastors to punish people in their church?!!!  Benjamin Corey had this to say.

The most painful type of punishment god dishes out is when he kills people you love. Piper also cited the views of Jonathan Edwards, and claimed that god will often punish a disobedient church by killing their pastor.

The important issue that John Piper skips over way too much. We live in a fallen world.

It appears to me that John Piper delights in pontificating on the reasons for God's wrath that he claims to see everywhere he looks. We wrote John Piper Addresses God’s Sovereignty Amid Calamity. In this he claimed to know why a tornado strick a Lutheran church (they married gays) and why a bridge in Minnesota collapsed and killed many (To make John Piper repent of his own sin. Piper was not on the bridge. He just thought it had somethign to do with him…) 

Piper appears to have a limited view of God's sovereignty. He believes that Godhe must control every little thing or the universe would spin out of control.  Even the outcome of the game of Scrabble, including whoever gets the dreaded *Q* with no *U,* is determined by God for the sake of the universe. 

"So every spin of the roulette wheel … you know Las Vegas … every roll of the dice in your family board game, every reaching of the hand for the scramble of the letter, is determined by God."

We live in a world in which bad things happen. When dealing with my  daughter's brain tumor, I didn't spend time wondering if I had done something wrong. I realized that it is a consequence of living in a fallen world. During her illness, I felt the comfort of a Savior who loved me and who loved my daughter. I knew that I would see her again even if she died. God comforted me and did not condemn me for all of my sins. Sins, which had been and continue to be, forgiven.

To that poor man who may be still wondering whether his porn viewing caused a miscarriage: If you have repented, your sins are forgiven. God weeps with you in your pain. You serve a loving, forgiving Father who is not out there planning His next secret act of revenge against your family for your sin. He loves you very much, even in your sin. Never forget this wonderful verse. Romans 5:8 NIV

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

In the meantime, here are a couple of other Bible verses to contemplate and discuss. 

Ezekiel 18:20 NIV Bible Hub

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

John 9:1-3 NIV Bible Hub

1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 

Comments

John Piper Thinks That God Could Have Caused a Miscarriage Because a Dad Used Porn — 275 Comments

  1. OK, so I will at some point actually read the post, which does seem to merit some sober treatment.

  2. I wonder if Piper realizes his comments embody a major reason people are turning from their faith? Or reject it outright in the first place?

  3. Well, obviously, you shouldn’t judge. We should just let God do these things in his timing.

    I think the trouble here is that you’re all looking for the perfect church. But what I would say is, if you ever find the perfect church, don’t join it because you’ll spoil it!

    Best regards,

    Arnold Smartarse

  4. Piper’s god is an idol crafted in his own mind, nothing more. His viewpoint is not only stupid, but harmful. I’ll never understand why people follow that man.

  5. This is such a distressing view of the Almighty. While the Bible is full of examples of God’s wrath in the Old Testament, the whole point of Christ and the New Testament is that through the sacrifice of God himself we are saved from his wrath through faith. If God truly behaved, as Piper suggests, than the Gospels would read completely differently. If God punishes us in this life by killing or maiming us or those around us for our sins, then Christ would not have been the loving preacher of the Gospels, instead Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John would have chronicled the world’s first serial killer.

    It seems to me that pastors like Piper are addicted to God’s wrath, because these pastors are so insecure in their own masculinity that they insist that God is hyper masculine, ie aggressive, violent, angry. They seem so afraid of any emotion that they view as non-masculine that they can’t view God as expressing those emotions because then they might feel as Mark Driscoll said before, that Jesus wants to be in a homosexual relationship with them.

    Personally, I think a get many of these pastors should be thankful that God does not work like they are suggesting, since many of them would have no families, friends, church etc… if He really acted as they suggest and punished them for the pastor’s sins.

  6. Argh…Piper. He never misses a miserable, horrific, sad circumstance, without heaping guilt upon the victim.

    He is a master at throwing false guilt around. How can one be truly repentant if one doesn’t know for sure which sin God was disciplining one for? It’s all a crapshoot.

    Piper negates the mercy and love of God, for His creation, by constantly harping on, our deficiencies.

    “God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble…” God knows we live in a fallen world. When trouble comes, as it always does, He is with us, not against us.

  7. Bah. I think global warming is God’s way of killing puppies and kittens to punish you all for being rubbish.

    You’re all rubbish.

    Up Yours,

    Roger Bombast

  8. False guilt for sure.

    But more than that, why is it always the pelvic issues with these guys? Like nothing else is a sin. You will never hear from them how some tragedy happens because of someone’s greed, or pride, or dishonest business dealings, or lies, or gluttony. Nope. Always it’s something sexual. Most recent example being the Nashville obsession ….err, I mean statement.

    Something just isn’t right here.

  9. Well, I’ve no comment to make on Mr Piper’s position, not having read it in detail at source. I can neither confirm nor rule out the possibility, therefore, that he has picked a peck of pickled pepper. I think it unlikely, given that pepper can only realistically be pickled after it’s been picked.

    But the broad idea, that God might be
     punishing us, or
     speaking to us, or
     leading us, or
     calling us, or
     angry with us, or
     otherwise holding some posture towards us which we should fear
    is depressingly common.

    When our elder wean was four, he asked us out of the blue: What’s it like when God talks to you?

    This is arguably the first question any adult should ask on becoming a believer! But it’s the one question christians in (Blighty at least) seem reluctant to ask, much less answer. I’ll have to pick it up tomorrow, though, as it’s bedtime here.

  10. “6. We don’t need to be sure about the connection between our particular sufferings and our particular sins in this life, because the death of Christ is sufficient to forgive the worst sin in spite of the worst suffering.”

    I was going to come up with a snark rewording of point six but it’s too horrible for sarcasm.

  11. John Piper is an idiot. Why does anyone care WTF he says? For as long as I’ve been aware of him he has been a blithering fool, just spouting out the most stupid, hurtful, whackadoodle nonsense. Maybe once he was a serious human being, I don’t know.

    The man needs his friends to tell him to shut up, for his own good, and that of the Church. That he still has any kind of traction in the Evangelical world or the YRR world or NeoCalvanista world, or whatever you want to call this bunch, is very telling. The sooner this phenomenon burns itself out, the better.

  12. John wrote:

    False guilt for sure.
    But more than that, why is it always the pelvic issues with these guys?

    Because “these guys” have very dirty minds.

  13. OP:

    In this he claimed to know why a tornado strick a Lutheran church (they married gays) and why a bridge in Minnesota collapsed and killed many (To make John Piper repent of his own sin. Piper was not on the bridge. He just thought it had somethign to do with him…)

    This brings to my mind that song by Carly Simon, “You’re So Vain” where she sings, “you probably think this song is about you”

    When I hear about a natural disaster or traffic accident, I myself don’t first think, “I wonder what sin I did for God to cause that to punish those other people.”

    I think it actually takes a pretty warped sense of pride to think in those terms. Like some of the Christians I see online who humble-brag about how they’re the greatest sinner ever.

  14. I agree with your concerns. I guess we do need to factor in passages that do speak about God disciplining his children though (Heb 12:5-11), along with the wonderful assurances in the passages you cite. But yes, we live in a fallen world, as well as a world where God sends the rain on the righteous and unrighteous (Matt 5:45) so trying to interpret providence and individual suffering is not the wisest place to start.

  15. John wrote:

    I guess we do need to factor in passages that do speak about God disciplining his children though (Heb 12:5-11),

    Correct. I don’t see where Piper used the word ‘punish’.

  16. Lea wrote:

    I can’t even with this guy.
    What does god do if you sit around watching teenagers make out?

    Oh snap!

  17. Lea wrote:

    What does god do if you sit around watching teenagers make out?

    He makes your son get a divorce!

  18. I’m thinking of starting The Prophetic Weather Channel, where prophetic forecasters [all men, of course] tell us where there will be horrible weather and natural disasters, and then tell us what God is trying to say through that weather.

    Have you noticed that when these guys say God speaks, He’s always angry? A tornado is god being angry about something, but a sunny and 70 degree day is just nice weather. Why can’t a perfect day be God’s way of saying, “You guys rock!”

    Why? Because their god is always angry about something.

  19. Mae wrote:

    He never misses a miserable, horrific, sad circumstance

    Misery loves company. Insecurity, also, loves company.

  20. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    Why? Because their god is always angry about something.

    Their god is a compulsive abuser in a constant rage, always going to and fro looking for something to PUNISH PUNISH PUNISH.

    Like what I mentioned in the other thread about “The Calvary Road”, demanding impossible Perfection so he can make with the beatdown when you fall short.

    A tornado is god being angry about something, but a sunny and 70 degree day is just nice weather. Why can’t a perfect day be God’s way of saying, “You guys rock!”

    Like the Christianese definition of “Judgment”. Instead of “a binding decision”, it means somebody gets it in the neck. Always someone other than the one preaching about it.

  21. So what judgment from God is around the corner for Piper for leading a generation away from Truth? What awaits the Pied Piper who has filled the minds of new reformers with error?

  22. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Their god

    “You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride
    You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side
    You may be workin’ in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair
    You may be somebody’s mistress, may be somebody’s heir

    “But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes
    You’re gonna have to serve somebody
    Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you’re gonna have to serve somebody”

  23. I actually fill a tinge of pity for Piper. His views reflect the Bible as a rule book and God as a scorekeeper. This is tragic to say the least.

  24. It is ironic that WW posted another post about the wacky things that the Piper says. I was just thinking this morning during a breast cancer research meeting in a department that has a women as its head, should I not take this program as seriously as I would if it was headed by a man? Further I have male and female research collaborators, and some of your joint papers/work are lead by female, some by male, and some by me… Is the work lead by women less that work by men (didn’t the Piper say women are more prone to being deceived?) and am I less of a man for not “leading” all of the work that I do with female collaborators (remember the Piper comment about women cops?) ??

  25. John Piper has 937,000 Twitter followers! I guess they enjoy reading things like:

    “The ugliness and desperation of every disease is meant by God to show us the ugliness and desperation of our sin.”

    “Pastors, when you preach, shape and enlarge your people’s vocabulary. Language limits our ability to experience God.”

    And this tweet last Saturday: “The word of God is like throwing open a window of bright morning sunshine on the roaches of sin masquerading as satisfying pleasures.”

    I guess this is how a Christian hedonist thinks. Piper is a strange little man.

  26. Irma may give Piper a lot to write about. Please pray. There is no way that 20 million can evacuate up two interstate highways. If the trough over the eastern US will push Irma out, it would be so super. If not, then the lights are going out in Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and parts of North Carolina and Tennessee. It’s probably because I had that second bowl of ice cream.

  27. Gram3 wrote:

    Irma may give Piper a lot to write about.

    Irma means “War Goddess” … yep, Piper will have something to say about that.

  28. Gram3 wrote:

    Irma may give Piper a lot to write about.

    Didn’t he go to Dubai a few years back and say something strange that went out on youtube?

  29. @ Max:

    It’s interesting how people like Piper & MacArthur rarely mention Proverbs 6:16-19. Probably because more than a few of those things could apply to them and their apologists.

  30. My wish for John Piper is that he will retire to a beachfront home where he can take a daily stroll with a muscular woman in a bikini and collect sea shells.

  31. Max wrote:

    John Piper has 937,000 Twitter followers!

    The internet is God’s curse on Piper. If his were just the rants of some guy down the hall few would know the his deficiency, with the internet it is amplified to millions. Fear not for the 937,000 they may be just subscribing to “Joke of the Day”.

  32. Gram3 wrote:

    Irma may give Piper a lot to write about.

    I’m surprised he hasn’t Twittered about Harvey.
    Harvey’s movement back out to sea to recharge then coming back in over Houston sounds like a natural.

  33. A story from when I first became a “Christian” I lived on a court growing up, 15 houses before I moved out we lost well over five young people with suicide, drugs, accidents etc. If I expanded that circle past say 2 miles I knew well over 35 kids that had died due to some tragic accident or murdered. I struggled with that as a kid and that is a shame on me, that kind of stuff we should have nailed down in the back yard before we are six or maybe eight years old. I get that.

    On my block were two Mormon families and one day I was outside on the court when the police and ambulance were there. I must state that was extremely common on our block especially the police. Again I should have had our total depravity nailed down in the backyard before I was in kindergarten or better or basically, I am a satan worshipper but that is another post. What is primary it should not have had any effect on me whatsoever. God hates that emotionalistic nonsense. Well anyway a baby died, not the first one I have seen, and as I watched the firefighter was walking out with two women, one was crying and really upset and the other was comforting the crying person. It confused me because the one crying was the babysitter and the one comforting her was the parent (I came to understand later) was the parent of the child that had died.

    When I found this out I was blown away by the grace shown by the parent comforting the babysitter. Both parents were LDS which of course shows that the child who died was a noncovalent child thus reprobated in eternal torment to the glory of the Prince of Peace. I mentioned this happening to several people at my faith fellowship, after the initial wanting to shove their hands down their throat and heaving the entire contents of their stomachs out in the sanctuary one brother mentioned maybe God was sparing that child the experience of becoming an unbelieving adult. To my eternal shame, as a true follower of the way should not ever need comfort, it gave me some. But I was almost immediately rebuked learning that one of the leaders did not hold to infant salvation if you died in infancy, preborn what ever and could not fully articulate all aspects of the articles of faith you were eternal toast for the glory of the God of Reconciliation who gave Himself up for us very few.

    I will admit I ran out of the fellowship to not commit the sin of what the F is wrong with you and your psycho god. The coward I was I did not say much that day, I will admit I said a bit later concerning how pathetic and stupid such a “theology” was. I made them look stupid but later I was rebuked for my insensitivity. It turned out later that the primary person holding to God sending all noncognizant humans to hell turned out to be crazy as a loon. Which I could have told you from day one. If people do not think doctrine and church polity cannot cause damage may I humbly suggest, U have no clue to this day I still bear that scare and it runs very deep and it still hurts.

  34. ONE of the reasons I left the faith is the delusional beliefs of so many Christians I either personally know or know about. I’m glad I no longer worry about those kinds of issues

  35. Bad things happen to good people. Good things happen to bad people. A hurricane is caused by the sun’s energy over large masses of water, cancer cells have defective DNA. These events aren’t good or bad, as far as malicious intent goes. There’s no grand design to it all.

    Makes me think of the Twilight zone episode with the card dispensing Swami. The people gave up their freedom to magical thinking.

    I saw a bumper sticker that stated “125000 children will starve today, why should God answer your prayer?”

    Magical thinking leads to disappointment and sadness.

    If there is a God then he/she/ it really doesn’t play favorites.

  36. Pingback: Theology-related quote for the day | Civil Commotion

  37. I doubt Piper believes any of this stuff is true for him, just everybody else. His sons seem like a big disappointment to him, but I can’t believe he’s blamed himself for that. He’s so quick to blame natural disasters on people being sinful.

    Wouldn’t a son walking away from the faith be completely against what’s taught by most New Cals if you are Elect? But I bet he’s blamed this son for that and not himself, but if the exact same person in his church came with the same issue, I bet he’d blame the parent (if he was consistent with the things he writes online).

  38. 1. I seriously doubt God caused a miscarriage because dad was looking at ( as we say in East Texas) ” nekkid folks” on the internet. That makes God evil and wicked.
    2. I am back home. My home is in good shape compared to my neighbor’s. As the first verse of the Doxology says….” Praise God from whom all blessing flow.”

  39. What makes David different from that poor guy who emailed Piper, is that David had the prophet Nathan to tell him that the death of Bathsheba’s firstborn was a specific judgement on David. Unless Piper has the chutzpah to compare himself to Nathan, the comparison makes no sense if you really think about it. Unlike anything in the Old Testament, we have no special divine revelation accompanying whatever bad stuff happens.

    I would call Piper the next Pat Robertson, but I think they’re of the same generation.

  40. What is even more disturbing is Piper’s apparent belief that God is deliberately causing harm to friends of John Piper in order to punish John Piper for his sins.

    Friendship with Piper should come with a warning label.

  41. John Piper keeps trying to figure out the Almighty God and put Him in a little box of theology. He should instead bow his knee and realize God’s ways are unfathomable.

  42. “The most painful type of punishment god dishes out is when he kills people you love. Piper also cited the views of Jonathan Edwards, and claimed that god will often punish a disobedient church by killing their pastor.”

    Jonathan Edwards needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but John Piper appears to have swallowed his stuff straight. He’s been a fan of Edwards his whole adult life.

  43. @ NJ:

    it was also not “just” about the adultery or “just” about the murder but the abuse of divinely granted royal power and prestige. People keep ignoring that David was already besieging an Ammonite city that, at least according to prohibitions in Deuteronomy, he wasn’t really supposed to be besieging to begin with. Jacob Wright has a monograph on David that discusses that topic at moderate length that’s worth reading.

    Something else that’s struck me about the confrontation between Nathan and David that I have not, as yet, seen scholars discuss, is that it seems David had a personal prophet, Gad the seer, who’s nowhere to be found in the narrative. Did Gad the seer have an opportunity to confront David that he didn’t take? To reformulate the question, did Nathan step in to rebuke David because someone who already could have played a prophetic role in rebuking David for abuse of royal power was unwilling to do so?

    The adultery and murder were, of course, bad, but it seems like American Christians keep forgetting that there was substantial misuse of royal authority prior to all that. Thing is, I’ve come across people who think that, prohibition in Deuteronomy withstanding, David choosing to besiege an Ammonite city was basically okay or understandable. Maybe if you believe Deuteronomy wasn’t actually composed until the reign of Josiah … but I’m fairly sure nobody who would choose to take someone like John Piper seriously would ever grant THAT proposal.

  44. Abigail wrote:

    John Piper keeps trying to figure out the Almighty God and put Him in a little box of theology.

    Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To put the mind of God into a neat theological box is to stand in arrogance before Him. Such is New Calvinism; there is no shortage of arrogance among the elite in the new reformation.

  45. Thersites wrote:

    The internet is God’s curse on Piper.

    Piper actually thinks that!

    “One of the curses of our modern day is that everything John Piper says is immortalized on the web.” (John Piper)

    Keep talking Dr. Piper. We are listening.

    If it weren’t for social media and the blogosphere, the New Calvinist movement would barely be a blip on the radar. The new reformers have used cyberspace effectively to advance their cause. It may also prove to be their downfall. TWW is doing its part to expose New Calvinist aberrations in belief and practice – thank you Deebs!

  46. Donnie wrote:

    It’s interesting how people like Piper & MacArthur rarely mention Proverbs 6:16-19. Probably because more than a few of those things could apply to them and their apologists.

    Well, there’s plenty of deception in New Calvinist ranks for sure! And God hates theological chicaneries which diminish Jesus, subordinate believers, and place overlords in the church to control, manipulate and intimidate followers into un-Biblical submission. There will be a payday someday for such leaders.

  47. Dear God,

    Please ensure that Piper is taking his meds. If he is already taking some, please have a pharmacist check the side effects of said medications, then suggest a reasonable, less hallucinatory/psychosis-enducing substitute.

    Sincerely,

    Everyone

  48. Jarrett Edwards wrote:

    Personally, I think a get many of these pastors should be thankful that God does not work like they are suggesting, since many of them would have no families, friends, church etc… if He really acted as they suggest and punished them for the pastor’s sins.

    I wonder if that is why Piper must say things like “A bridge, that I was not on, collapsed and killed other people so I would repent. It seems to be about Piper-n matter what happens.

  49. Mae wrote:

    How can one be truly repentant if one doesn’t know for sure which sin God was disciplining one for? It’s all a crapshoot.

    Good observation.

  50. John wrote:

    You will never hear from them how some tragedy happens because of someone’s greed, or pride, or dishonest business dealings, or lies, or gluttony.

    That is most insightful

  51. Tim wrote:

    I was going to come up with a snark rewording of point six but it’s too horrible for sarcasm.

    I am astonished that his followers let this stuff pass without carefully thinking about what he is implying.

  52. Piper sounds a lot like Job’s “friends” who were telling him the disasters befalling his family were due to his sin.

    Piper sounds a lot like the confused disciples asking Jesus: “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

    Jesus seemed to address this issue also when He told people that those who died when the tower of Siloam fell on them were no more in sin than anyone else in Jerusalem.

    Of course God can punish sin, and sin has very natural consequences, but the sun rises on good and evil and it rains on the good and the evil. One cannot burden people with a formula that says: “You saw porn, ergo the Lord might kill your baby”. That doesn’t seem to be a biblical burden—it’s the sort of burden a Pharisee put on another.

  53. Max wrote:

    Abigail wrote:
    John Piper keeps trying to figure out the Almighty God and put Him in a little box of theology.
    Scripture speaks much about the sovereignty of God. Scripture speaks much about the free will of man. It all works together in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To put the mind of God into a neat theological box is to stand in arrogance before Him. Such is New Calvinism; there is no shortage of arrogance among the elite in the new reformation.

    True, true.

  54. Jack wrote:

    If there is a God then he/she/ it really doesn’t play favorites.

    You know, Jack, we’ve had our differences and that will continue, but you’re starting to veer into the truth, did you know you just quoted the Bible? Romans 2:11

  55. Jarrett Edwards wrote:

    they might feel as Mark Driscoll said before, that Jesus wants to be in a homosexual relationship with them

    I’m sorry, is this a real thing that he said??? I heard the ‘I don’t want to be able to beat up Jesus’ one, but not that. #whydopeoplelistentoANYofthem??

  56. @ Sam:
    I get your point but Piper has been saying these sorts of things for 20 years. Social media has been a game changer.

  57. @ roebuck:
    He is basically the dean of the Neo Cal Young restless and reformed movement. No one is going to confront him about anything. They just pretend it never happened. Just like they have done with Mark Driscoll and CJ mahaney. And now ESS.

  58. @ ishy:
    This is a man who excommunicated his son because he played in a band in bars. And drank alcohol. IOW, he had a young man who rebelled against his strict upbringing.

  59. Law Prof wrote:

    Romans 2:11

    I like the following translation of that verse: “There is no preferential treatment with God” (Romans 2:11 Phillips).

    Do you reckon that God shows no partiality by race, class or gender? (Galatians 3:28) Folks who preach “Jesus is less than God” and “female is less than male” do not know God.

  60. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    My wish for John Piper is that he will retire to a beachfront home where he can take a daily stroll with a muscular woman in a bikini and collect sea shells.

    Lol! The really big sins!

  61. @ Lydia:
    And on that score remember Piper’s retirement video? Everyone was expecting him to go to deepest darkest Africa and we would never hear from him again.

    Fraud.

  62. Lydia wrote:

    And on that score remember Piper’s retirement video? Everyone was expecting him to go to deepest darkest Africa and we would never hear from him again.
    Fraud.

    I honestly didn’t know that he’d made one. In that case, forget the meds…maybe possession?

  63. @ Sam:
    Oh Sam! You have to watch it. it’s classic Piper full of deep dark emotion. Think of it… he flew a crew to film his retirement video in Geneva in front of a statue of Calvin!
    (We are not talking about a Frugal man of God here)

    https://vimeo.com/50857619

  64. Sam wrote:

    forget the meds…maybe possession

    Perhaps Piper and CJM are actually the same person, and “Piper” is a shape-shifter. Maybe he has already been “possessed” as in Alien Abduction.
    Reopen the X-Files please…

  65. Max wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Romans 2:11
    I like the following translation of that verse: “There is no preferential treatment with God” (Romans 2:11 Phillips).
    Do you reckon that God shows no partiality by race, class or gender? (Galatians 3:28) Folks who preach “Jesus is less than God” and “female is less than male” do not know God.

    We’re on the same page, as usual. Don’t know if that should comfort you or terrify you.

  66. A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    Reopen the X-Files please…

    That would actually make a lot of sense. Also, that would make for an excellent episode….Oh, oh, oh, we could have a Christian version of the X-files, committed to debunking strange teachings and church policies!

    The truth is out there!

  67. Law Prof wrote:

    You know, Jack, we’ve had our differences and that will continue, but you’re starting to veer into the truth, did you know you just quoted the Bible? Romans 2:11

    Probably less different than you might think. I was raised Christian (in a socially liberal household) so western Christian culture is what I most identify with.

    The issue that I have with Piper and those who believe in the whole predestination concept is that it is all “God’s will”.

    One of the things that I do respect about most evangelical Christians is the emphasis on action and personal responsibility. You accept salvation and it’s between you and God.

    I find that some atheistic thoughts veer into nihilism. That’s the universe, no rhyme or reason, you are nothing more than cosmic flotsam and jetsam.

    Piper would tell me it’s nothing more than God’s will that 125000 kids starved today.

    For me that bumper sticker should read “125000 children will starve today, what are you going to do about it?”

    If you want to put it into Christian terms then we should read the old testament as history, and the new testament as a call to action.

  68. Lydia wrote:

    @ Sam:
    Oh Sam! You have to watch it. it’s classic Piper full of deep dark emotion. Think of it… he flew a crew to film his retirement video in Geneva in front of a statue of Calvin!
    (We are not talking about a Frugal man of God here)
    https://vimeo.com/50857619

    I only watched a minute of it and that video is the scariest thing ever. Piper’s emotions and wonder at Calvin are something to be cringed at, (especially when you consider the history of Calvin and his persecutions.)

  69. For Piper to say the man’s sin of pornography caused his wife’s miscarriage, is beyond cruel. There are untold numbers of pregnancies that end in miscarriage. Many of us here have had one. Me included. Mine was very early. But I do know in my heart that I have a little girl in Heaven that I will meet one day. A lot of pregnancies just aren’t viable. That’s the way it is. Nothing causes it.

    Years ago, a man in my church was very ill with kidney disease. This was before kidney transplant became available. Everyone knew this fine man of God was dying. On the Sunday morning that the pastor announced his death, he said this “he came to me and asked me (pastor) what sin he had committed that was causing him not to be healed. He (pastor) replied that there wasn’t any sin. It was just his time, and the man accepted it. I will never forget that Sunday. We all loved this man and his wife.

  70. Jack wrote:

    Piper would tell me it’s nothing more than God’s will that 125000 kids starved today.

    “IN’SHAL’LAH…”

  71. Harley wrote:

    For Piper to say the man’s sin of pornography caused his wife’s miscarriage, is beyond cruel. There are untold numbers of pregnancies that end in miscarriage. Many of us here have had one. Me included.

    I was the firstborn, circa 1955; my mother had four or five miscarriages before she had me.

  72. Lydia wrote:

    @ Sam:
    Oh Sam! You have to watch it. it’s classic Piper full of deep dark emotion. Think of it… he flew a crew to film his retirement video in Geneva in front of a statue of Calvin!

    That wasn’t a retirement video, it was public announcement of his claim of Heir to Calvin’s Iron Throne.

  73. Mae wrote:

    He is a master at throwing false guilt around. How can one be truly repentant if one doesn’t know for sure which sin God was disciplining one for?

    That’s why you NEED Him of the Fluttering Hands and Piping Voice whom God has on personal speed-dial.

  74. Daisy wrote:

    I think it actually takes a pretty warped sense of pride to think in those terms. Like some of the Christians I see online who humble-brag about how they’re the greatest sinner ever.

    That’s called “Race For The Bottom”, a “More Depraved Sinner Than Thou” version of One-Upmanship.

    I am so sick of One-Upmanship.

  75. Sam wrote:

    Piper’s emotions and wonder at Calvin are something to be cringed at, (especially when you consider the history of Calvin and his persecutions.)

    Yes, I found myself cringing also.
    Considering the suffering that Calvin and his henchmen caused it is difficult to have any sympathy for his own alleged suffering because he didn’t have “indoor plumbing”.
    Here is a man who used his office as a cover to execute people who disagreed with him. A serial killer disguised as a man-o-gawd. Brilliant! Let me know when it appears on Netflix…

  76. Law Prof wrote:

    We’re on the same page, as usual. Don’t know if that should comfort you or terrify you.

    LP, it appears that you and I have the same ministry … to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable!

  77. In the book of Job, his ‘friends’ tried to logically dissect and diagnose the reasons for his suffering. Piper’s rationale differs very little from theirs! However, in the end Bildad, Eliphaz and Zophar are told by God that they didn’t tell the truth about Him and God required them to repent and offer sacrifices and have Job pray for them. As ancient as the account of Job is, I find it remarkable that we still can’t seem to get it straight!

    Piper’s mind-set here bears a striking similarity to a lot of Bill Gothard’s stuff. To these guys, God always seems to be looking for reasons to squash us! However, Jesus said, “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.”

  78. Lea wrote:

    Jarrett Edwards wrote:
    they might feel as Mark Driscoll said before, that Jesus wants to be in a homosexual relationship with them
    I’m sorry, is this a real thing that he said??? I heard the ‘I don’t want to be able to beat up Jesus’ one, but not that. #whydopeoplelistentoANYofthem??

    I was paraphrasing but his quote was “(I learned) ‘to love Jesus without feeling like we had a thinly veiled homosexual relationship.’”

  79. Lydia wrote:

    @ ishy:
    This is a man who excommunicated his son because he played in a band in bars. And drank alcohol. IOW, he had a young man who rebelled against his strict upbringing.

    He quit going to a New Cal church with a covenant, so that is considered walking away from the faith in their minds. He did walk away from Piper’s brand of faith. I’m actually surprised he didn’t try to excommunicate Barnabas as well.

    But that wasn’t really my point. My question is where does he put the blame for that? He’s very quick to blame bad events on sin of certain people, but does he blame himself for the actions of his sons? By his own theology and words he should, but because he continues to be so blatant and quick to place blame on others, I doubt he does for himself.

  80. Jack wrote:

    For me that bumper sticker should read “125000 children will starve today, what are you going to do about it?”

    Bingo.

  81. ishy wrote:

    He quit going to a New Cal church with a covenant, so that is considered walking away from the faith in their minds.

    I forgot about that part.

    The news about Abraham did not really come from Piper at the time. So you are right he did not use his own experience to blame himself.

  82. This kind of comment from Piper could be horribly toxic for grieving moms. My husband and I lost identical twin girls to Twin-to-Twin-Transfusion-Syndrome 3 years ago at 23 weeks along in my pregnancy. We have a beautiful two year old boy and I am pregnant with another girl, due in December. But I am still dealing with the grief, the trauma, and the aftermath of our girls’ birth/death. In fact I am in counseling right now with a (secular) psychiatrist who specializes in pregnancy and postpartum. We moms who have lost babies already have the predisposition to feel guilty, to wonder if we are to blame, to think “if only I’d done x,y, or z, could things have been different.” We don’t need men like Piper telling us that maybe our babies died because God is punishing some sin in our lives or the lives of those close to us. (And I speak this as someone who was raised Reformed and who is currently struggling to figure out how much of the Reformed doctrines I still really hold to. Voices like Piper’s do not help.)

  83. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    That wasn’t a retirement video, it was public announcement of his claim of Heir to Calvin’s Iron Throne.

    Now there’s a show I don’t want to watch. All in favor of boycotting a Game of Biblical Tomes (and its sequel, A Song of ESS and Fire)?

  84. Jack wrote:

    Piper would tell me it’s nothing more than God’s will that 125000 kids starved today.

    No, that’s just a convenient excuse to ignore the suffering and misery of others (because hey, it’s not like Jesus expects his sheep to actually feed and clothe those less fortunate…) Nope, once again, the suffering of others, is all about reminding Piper of his sins. Especially the one about narcissism.

  85. Lydia wrote:

    @ A.Tumbleweed:
    I was floored. And this was around the time the young restless and reformed just salivated over his every word.

    When they weren’t piddling all over the floor like giddy puppies from the Presence of the Big Dog.

  86. Jack wrote:

    For me that bumper sticker should read “125000 children will starve today, what are you going to do about it?”

    Agreed. The vast majority of the bad stuff in the world is because we let it go on. So in that way, you (generic you) could say that God is not in control, we are.

    Jack wrote:

    If you want to put it into Christian terms then we should read the old testament as history, and the new testament as a call to action.

    Good point.

  87. Meredithwiggle wrote:

    We don’t need men like Piper telling us that maybe our babies died because God is punishing some sin in our lives or the lives of those close to us. (And I speak this as someone who was raised Reformed and who is currently struggling to figure out how much of the Reformed doctrines I still really hold to. Voices like Piper’s do not help.)

    John Piper continues to disqualify himself as a teacher – ignore most of what he says. His New Calvinist brand of reformed theology is not the classical Calvinist belief and practice that you may have been raised in. Piper is always looking for an extreme position to draw attention to himself, expand his following, and sell more books. The young, restless and reformed adore him for some strange reason. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

    So sorry about the loss of your twins. Praying for a healthy pregnancy and birth of the baby girl you are now carrying. Trust Jesus, not Piper, in the days ahead.

  88. @ Meredithwiggle:

    You’ve been through a nightmare. So sorry.
    Hoping counseling helps you. The Lord does know your pain. We live in a world that is fallen. Life can be hard to bear at times. Even creation calls out to be delivered, healed. I pray the same for you.
    Best wishes for this new little life you are expecting in December.

  89. When I had to sit through two semesters of systematic theology, one of the concepts they taught was the Divine Decree. In other words, ever single thing that ever happened, is happening, or will happen is ordained by God. Yep, everything.

    Guess who has rejected Calvinism now?

    God did not ordain that I bought crackers earlier today. But He always knew it in His foreknowledge. God does not ordain cracker buying.

    Sometimes stuff just happens. Many times the why of it is way beyond my pay grade. I am okay with that.

  90. bunny wrote:

    Divine Decree. In other words, ever single thing that ever happened, is happening, or will happen is ordained by God. Yep, everything.

    How can they not see that their philosophy of God puts his hand on every gun, his finger on every trigger, and his hand on every zipper?

    Their god is not God. And guess what religion they have more in common with? God wills it! Puke.

  91. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    piddling all over the floor

    OK, I’ve been dying to offer this link about the Irish family that tries to use a tea towel to catch a bat in their kitchen. You have kindly provided the pretext.

    (Alert: the vid contains cusswords, but in an accent I personally could not understand the first ten times I watched it. Not sure what John Piper would make of my decision to view this…)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lk0pA-G0Kz8

  92. @ Roger Bombast:
    Roger, what in the world is wrong with you, that you think it’s appropriate, or funny, or God knows what, to conclude your every post with “You’re all rubbish, Up Yours”? Is this supposed to be British banter, that you think is endearing? I watch the BBC, I appreciate the clever British style of debate and wit that goes in Parliament. You’re not clever, brother.

    I know in Britain the police even allow you to hurl insults at an officer of the law, so apparently words mean nothing over there. Over here, you try that and you get a boot on your neck, and you should. You see, America is a country where people don’t just insult each other, they take an insult and act on it, and real people get hurt, stabbed, shot — or worse, they sue the other guy and ruin his life if they can. So we have to be careful with our words. because America isn’t one big English pub full of layabouts where no one ever backs up their words with action. My forbears left England because they were sick of just sitting around complaining about their lives — they did something about it. They risked everything to get on a boat in the 17th century which might well never even make it across the Atlantic. When it did, they then had to start over here with nothing.

    So if you don’t really mean it when you say “Up yours”, stop saying it. If you do mean it, get specific about it and put up your dukes like a real man. Stop hiding behind the Internet and grow up.

  93. @ Codon:

    You’re kidding, right? This commenter comments under several names, sometimes serious and sometimes outrageous. Right now I can think of four (4) personas he uses. When he comments as himself there are few here who can match either his insights or his facility with the language.

  94. Codon wrote:

    Over here, you try that and you get a boot on your neck, and you should. You see, America is a country where people don’t just insult each other, they take an insult and act on it, and real people get hurt, stabbed, shot — or worse, they sue the other guy and ruin his life if they can.

    Are we all like this over here? Not I.

    Codon wrote:

    So we have to be careful with our words. because America isn’t one big English pub full of layabouts where no one ever backs up their words with action.

    That is insulting. You don’t even know this person, nor have you slowed down to ask any questions about his comments.

    Codon wrote:

    My forbears left England because they were sick of just sitting around complaining about their lives — they did something about it. They risked everything to get on a boat in the 17th century which might well never even make it across the Atlantic. When it did, they then had to start over here with nothing.

    You come across like you are somehow more special because your ancestors immigrated and his didn’t.

    You have certainly entered the conversation with a bang.

    Maybe you could ask some questions of the commenter instead of hurling insults?

  95. Jack wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    You know, Jack, we’ve had our differences and that will continue, but you’re starting to veer into the truth, did you know you just quoted the Bible? Romans 2:11
    Probably less different than you might think. I was raised Christian (in a socially liberal household) so western Christian culture is what I most identify with.
    The issue that I have with Piper and those who believe in the whole predestination concept is that it is all “God’s will”.
    One of the things that I do respect about most evangelical Christians is the emphasis on action and personal responsibility. You accept salvation and it’s between you and God.
    I find that some atheistic thoughts veer into nihilism. That’s the universe, no rhyme or reason, you are nothing more than cosmic flotsam and jetsam.
    Piper would tell me it’s nothing more than God’s will that 125000 kids starved today.
    For me that bumper sticker should read “125000 children will starve today, what are you going to do about it?”
    If you want to put it into Christian terms then we should read the old testament as history, and the new testament as a call to action.

    I find that the average nihilistic atheist and the average determinist John Piper follower have a lot in common: they tend to be very repulsive to be around. The main difference between them would be a nihilist like Nietzsche or Thomas Hardy is generally more straightforward about their beliefs and the consequences thereof, whereas someone like Piper tends to be intellectually dishonest and shifty about the consequences of their belief system. The vibe I get from the many Piper followers and neocalvinists is remarkably similar to the many atheists. Ugly vibe, they’re flip sides of the same coin.

    By the way, not suggesting all atheists are jerks, some are very fine people and have a lot of integrity. Even though I think they’re fools to think they could possibly obtain sufficient data to declare there is no God, that doesn’t mean they’ve completely obliterated the image of God in which they were made. Would rather have a beer with the average atheist than the average neocal.

  96. Codon wrote:

    @ Roger Bombast:
    Roger, what in the world is wrong with you, that you think it’s appropriate, or funny, or God knows what, to conclude your every post with “You’re all rubbish, Up Yours”? Is this supposed to be British banter, that you think is endearing? I watch the BBC, I appreciate the clever British style of debate and wit that goes in Parliament. You’re not clever, brother.
    I know in Britain the police even allow you to hurl insults at an officer of the law, so apparently words mean nothing over there. Over here, you try that and you get a boot on your neck, and you should. You see, America is a country where people don’t just insult each other, they take an insult and act on it, and real people get hurt, stabbed, shot — or worse, they sue the other guy and ruin his life if they can. So we have to be careful with our words. because America isn’t one big English pub full of layabouts where no one ever backs up their words with action. My forbears left England because they were sick of just sitting around complaining about their lives — they did something about it. They risked everything to get on a boat in the 17th century which might well never even make it across the Atlantic. When it did, they then had to start over here with nothing.
    So if you don’t really mean it when you say “Up yours”, stop saying it. If you do mean it, get specific about it and put up your dukes like a real man. Stop hiding behind the Internet and grow up.

    You probably need to hang around here a little longer and get to know people like our friend from the British Empire before you go off half-cocked. There’s a context to everything, don’t shoot first, ask questions second.

  97. The more I think about John Piper’s response the more upset they make me. I can’t think of what he might have told my parents. I am their only child, their miracle baby. They tried for 15 years of marriage to conceive and carry a child to term, before finding one of the then leading fertility doctors right in the area in which we live, which resulted in my birth. I love my parents, but every year I asked Santa for a little brother or sister, sadly I didn’t know that when I was around two, my little sister did not survive to term, not because of either of my parent’s sin, or for any future sin I would commit but because medical science couldn’t save her. How horrible it is for a “pastor” to basically tell a grieving family that they are the cause of their child’s death, that is not spiritual support that is spiritual abuse.

  98. @ Law Prof:

    True.
    The verses you reference always bring a smile due to a bit of poetry I learned as a child, which I shall attempt to quote many decades later:

    “The rain, it raineth every day
    upon the just and unjust fella
    But more upon the just because
    the unjust hath the just’s umbrella.”

  99. Codon wrote:

    God knows what

    suspect are your other names: Ick, Nice, Roger, Nick, and some others I may have missed. 🙂

  100. dee wrote:

    you are also attempting satire?

    Codon is a clue. The American stereotype is over the top and classic!. Maybe God will tell us definitively.

  101. In other news:
    I just got an email invitation to T4G18, which is next April in Louisville. Early bird pricing is just $229.

    I did find an error on their website. On the main page, at the bottom in the background image behind “Pricing and Registration,” there is a woman at the far left of the photo. Can’t really see her face, but she’s there. A female. Don’t know how that slipped past the editors. I sure hope she isn’t depriving a man of his seat.

    And yes, Piper is speaking, along with all the usual suspects. Including CJ.

    http://t4g.org/

    Hey, they do have exhibitor tables! Maybe TWW should buy a small table and be a lone voice of reason.

  102. ___

    “It’s About Ideas, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    This is an issue that is being fueled by the application of false ideas.

    huh?

    John Piper, as we all know, is a prisoner, not unlike Johnathan Edwards, chained to a (now) five hundred year old religious cult started by John Calvin, a religious madman who resurrected the nefarious Gnostic writings of Augustine, who in doing so eternally condemned with his ‘gospel’ a great portion of mankind prior to birth for something he called his god’s good pleasure, and the satisfaction of divine glory, a man who ‘dispatched’ (i.e. murdered) one of his opponents for simply disagreeing with his own writings, which history records he wantonly ‘dispatched’ (for lack of a better word…) with green wood. In conclusion, it was false ideas that fueled John Calvin’s merciless mayhem.

    So What?

    It should be of no surprise that many of his (John Calvin’s) present day followers should tread and hoe a ‘similar’ religious insanity.

    (sadface)

    Sòpy

    🙁

  103. Gram3 wrote:

    “Layabouts” is another clue. Codon is not speaking American.

    Not convinced on that, unless Nick is able to swap flags.

  104. Kate Millett died yesterday at age 82. I do not want to discuss Kate Millett and will not discuss her pro or con because that would be OT. For the youngsters, she was a second-wave feminist who I bring up in a Piper thread because she saw relationships between the sexes as fundamentally (necessarily?) a power struggle by women against the Patriarchy. Piper and Grudem and the CBMW crew reacted to Millett’s (and others’) ideas by presenting the Christianized version of it in RBMW, including Susan Foh’s ~1974 power struggle interpretation of Genesis 3:16. There is a generation of people who don’t know anything else and never will if they have the ESV Permanent Version!

    Imagine if, instead of reacting to Millett’s thesis these Christian leaders, had offered the Gospel of New Creation reconciliation in Christ who died and was raised to make possible the reconciliation between males and females, including husbands and wives. What if they said that reconciliation in Christ meant that racism is not compatible with the Kingdom of Christ where we are brothers and sisters of the same Father? If the leaders had done that beginning ~1974, they would have been way ahead of the curve instead of decades behind.

    Until they wake up, they will always be behind because they are playing the world’s game of power instead of proclaiming that Jesus Christ has defeated it.

  105. Bridget wrote:

    unless Nick is able to swap flags.

    Good and extremely obvious point. Thank you for providing the perfect Fallback Position: Satin spoofed the flag. 🙂

  106. He hasn’t written about Harvey because so many Calvinistas live in Houston. I think that city was punished for driving my husband and me from the church.

    There. I said it.

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

  107. @ dee:
    It’s still rude and unpleasant, not funny. Satire that is really funny takes talent. I don’t see any here.

  108. @ Gram3:
    This is a profound analysis…
    And, unfortunately, not first time that church “leaders” “miss-the-boat” by looking backwards…. a very similar analysis can be said about church leaders response to modern science…

  109. ___

    “Pardon Codon?”

    hmmm…

    When Roger says : ” “You’re all rubbish, Up Yours”, he is really bringing needed levity and encouraging all who read and participate here not to take themselves and their neighbors too seriously. That grace is better than judgment, laughter better than suspicion, hope better than fear. This is something a new visitor would not surmise.The TWW community is a nifty breed.

    Pardon Codon…
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJEwVDf_C8
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K3JUa6SUHCg
    he know not what he do-do.

    (grin)

    Call Roger Bombast, that’s the name and away goes sadness down the drain…

    hahahahahahaha

    ATB

    Sòpy

    😉

  110. Perhaps John Piper’s son got a divorce because John is teaching heretical garbage. The sins of the son projected on the sins of the father theology.

    So when did Piper decide he was god?

  111. @ Karen:
    While your post might sound sarcastic, this is so true…. it has been my eperience that the more a “preacher” likes to ponticate in ways that Piper does, the more you should like at their life, and you will find quickly how they do not apply the “principles” they put on us pewpeons on themselves…

  112. Hypothetical question:

    If I, as a Christian, intentionally stop giving to my local church so I can afford a giant flat-screen TV, then my house roof collapses and destroys that new TV…

    … Is God punishing me for that sin by taking away the thing I sinned to get?

    No, because what I deserve for that sin and every sin is not a collapsed roof or broken TV, but rather an eternity of separation from God. However, all punishment for all my sin was taken by Jesus on the cross, so whatever happens in my life, it is NOT the just punishment for my sin.

  113. Bookbolter wrote:

    “The rain, it raineth every day
    upon the just and unjust fella
    But more upon the just because
    the unjust hath the just’s umbrella.”

    I like that one!

  114. @ Codon:

    I don’t think he is trying to be funny. I know actual people like Bombast. I thought it was rather like several people here who repeat and repeat a particular idea wherever it seems appropriate until it is hard to miss the idea.

    Sorry you got your feelings hurt, but I don’t think he was aiming at you.

    One thing however does ‘offend’ me since it is all the rage right now to be offended. I am officially offended at anybody trying to police what people say. First amendment and all. Hate language is one thing, crudity is quite a different thing. Bombast is merely crude.

  115. @ Nick

    I remember saying to you recently that I was waiting for your next persona, and I remember your rejecting my suggestion as to what that might me, while not saying that you might not do something in some direction with another persona.

    So, if codon is your latest, how did you change the flag? I don’t know how that works.

  116. From the OP –

    Does God discipline his children for their sin? Yes, he does. This is described, perhaps, most fully in Hebrews 12. He even speaks of bloodshed if necessary as the price we might pay for our sin.

    Perhaps someone has written this above – I have not read all the comments – but Piper starts off his argument with a rather serious misinterpretation, that God is willing to shed blood (presumably ours but possibly others).

    I assume he is referring to Hebrews 12:4, which states In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood (NIV). Most commentators believe that the sin referred to in the first three verses of Ch. 12 is the sin of unbelief, not sin in general (though sin in general may be applicable at some points).

    Based on the writer of Hebrews’ line of argument in 12:1-4, the thought is that the Christians have not yet been called on to die for their loyalty to Christ and their resistance to the world. The writer even refers back to Ch. 11 (yes, I know there are no chapters in the original Greek texts) as some of the “great cloud of witnesses” were killed for their faith. The writer seems to be saying that in their firm stance for the faith against the world, the Christians may have to die as well. This has been demonstrated throughout the Common Era by the martyrs of Christendom.

    Returning to Piper, God is not threatening the believers with bloodshed if they give in to temptation. Rather, He is letting them know what their faith might cost them – their very lives.

  117. PRAYER REQUEST

    All – I would appreciate prayers for my sister Beth and brother-in-law Will in Tampa, Florida. They were preparing to leave there as Hurricane Irma approaches, but Will decided to stay behind to coordinate gasoline transports for the evacuees. He will keep 200 drivers and their trucks supplying gas as long as they can (this is associated with his business, but working with State emergency management authorities). They were planning to evacuate to Alabama, but felt a need to stay and help in this way. Beth and their pets will be staying in a shelter, since their home is near Tampa Bay. Please pray for them as they come to mind over the weekend. Thank you.

  118. @ Burwell:
    +1
    Heard that idea preached not too long ago from the pulpit of the church we just left. “If you mess up too badly, then God will kill you because of your sin.”

    I’m surprised that I’m not dead already. Made me wonder why Jesus had to die. Of course, a lot of the pronouncements from that crowd have me asking that question.

  119. Just read the headline. Only the headline. My comment: does this guy just write down whatever comes into his brain, and go from there? Because it seems that way. And people find him inspiring. I may not be able to read any farther than the headline, but good works deebs, offering discussion (destruction) space here. Guy is a maroon. And people find him inspiring. Sh*t.

  120. @ Max:

    Yes, please pray for my sister and her husband in Bradenton, FL. BIL has Parkinson’s and lymphoma. Can’t really travel very easily.

  121. @ Burwell:

    Or maybe Piper was thinking about 1 Corinthians 11 and what Paul said along this line. That segment can be troubling in more than one way.

  122. Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

    @ Karen:
    While your post might sound sarcastic, this is so true…. it has been my eperience that the more a “preacher” likes to ponticate in ways that Piper does, the more you should like at their life, and you will find quickly how they do not apply the “principles” they put on us pewpeons on themselves…

    Precisely Jeff. I was conveying sarcasm to a point because frankly, I’m sick and tired of these people (The Piper included) who claim to be teachers and preachers, deciding that they are God, LORD of all creation. I’m sick and tired of them sitting on their man-made thrones throwing stones at people who are suffering and in pain, telling them it’s because of a certain “sin” that a particular painful mishap occurs.

    Has anyone told Piper that the reason his son divorced is because Piper is engaging in the sin of playing god? More elitist sarcasm here.

    And when Jesus knelt before the religious folks of His day and penned words in the sand with His finger, who then was left standing in Judgement? Would Piper still be standing there, or would he have walked away as well with his tail between his legs.

    Had a religious man tell me once when I had a tumor removed, “Well, it’s because of your sin that this is happening.” He is now on the church board at his c’hurch. Scary!

  123. @Max

    Praying for your sister and brother-in-law and others there. May our LORD protect and keep them.

  124. Allie wrote:

    He hasn’t written about Harvey because so many Calvinistas live in Houston. I think that city was punished for driving my husband and me from the church.
    There. I said it.

    You should write him a letter and point the obvious out him 😉

  125. Gram3 wrote:

    Imagine if, instead of reacting to Millett’s thesis these Christian leaders, had offered the Gospel of New Creation reconciliation in Christ who died and was raised to make possible the reconciliation between males and females, including husbands and wives. What if they said that reconciliation in Christ meant that racism is not compatible with the Kingdom of Christ where we are brothers and sisters of the same Father? If the leaders had done that beginning ~1974, they would have been way ahead of the curve instead of decades behind.

    They could have responded like this. But they chose and continue to choose a “culture war” scenario, just like Jesus . . . ?

  126. Andy wrote:

    If I, as a Christian, intentionally stop giving to my local church so I can afford a giant flat-screen TV, then my house roof collapses and destroys that new TV…

    … Is God punishing me for that sin by taking away the thing I sinned to get?

    Don’t confuse Gods judgement for natural consequences of a poorly constructed roof or lack of maintenance. If someone is motivated by selfishness the likely “judgement” is a shallow life.

  127. I came across a text analyser tool and compared Codon’s contribution with Nick’s. Results are as follows
    Lexical Density 76.1 Codon; 87.2 Nick
    Readability. 8.0 Codon; 11.1 Nick
    Sentence length. 17.56 Codon; 16.89 Nick
    Words with more than ten letters 10 Codon; 16 Nick

    Even without the above info, I don’t think it is a Nick creation. There’s no warmth and even at his most bombastic, whichever persona he uses, there is always warmth and humanity. (Yes, I realise I’m setting myself up for a fall if it turns out otherwise. Lol)

  128. Gram3 wrote:

    Imagine if, instead of reacting to Millett’s thesis these Christian leaders, had offered the Gospel of New Creation reconciliation in Christ who died and was raised to make possible the reconciliation between males and females,

    Great point Grams3. With the growing revulsion against identity politics some in the church will regret adoption of their own version of identity politics such as CBMW.

  129. @ okrapod:
    Is there a czar minister to decide what is hate? What ever happened to just ignoring offensive boorish jerks? Sadly, Not agreeing is now hate.

  130. And Now: Cricket

    A fine half-ton from Ben Stokes, and a decent rearguard knock of 38 from Stuart Broad, has converted a slender first-innings lead into a surprisingly big one at Lords.

    The Windies have now begun their second innings and Jimmy Anderson promptly took his 500th Test wicket, clean-bowling Kraigg Braithwaite. The Test remains, nonetheless, intriguingly poised and there are still plenty of overs left in what is already a fine day’s cricket.

    Best regards,

    God

  131. Hopefully when my earlier comment gets through moderation, this comment will make sense. The author of the article is the son of a prominent theologian in the Free Church of Scotland of which the late Rev Iain D Campbell was a minister. It strikes me that there is a disparity between how they treat sin in the ordinary person and sin in one of their elite.

  132. Codon wrote:

    It’s still rude and unpleasant, not funny. Satire that is really funny takes talent. I don’t see any here.

    Nicholas, despite the fact that I strongly suspect this is you, I’m going to reply anyway: it’s hilarious.

  133. Sorry, everyone; bit late to the party here. (Job interview in Edinburgh…)

    Thankyou all for your words of support. Codon isn’t me, just in case anybody was wondering.

    To be fair, “Codon” (are they related to Colon?) may not be familiar with internet Poeists. Bombast is more obvious than most, especially since (if his avatar fotie is anything to go by) he looks like God. But still.

    Codon – you have a bit to learn about humour, if I may say so. You haven’t quite got the fake outrage. OTOH, respect for trying.

  134. P.S. For anyone who didn’t realise Codon was joking, the clue is in this phrase:

    I watch the BBC, I appreciate the clever British style of debate and wit that goes in Parliament.

    Let me be the first to say (unless someone upthread has beaten me to it): That is funny.

  135. Law Prof wrote:

    The vibe I get from the many Piper followers and neocalvinists is remarkably similar to the many atheists. Ugly vibe, they’re flip sides of the same coin.

    Or like each other’s evil twin.

  136. I’ve just got to tell you all this.

    I was reading Codon’s rather splendid post to Lesley, and concluded with the phrase: everyone seems to’ve taken Codon seriously despite the fact that it’s the most obviously made-up name…

    That’s as far as I got before Lesley burst out laughing… I think it was the name “Codon” that did it!

    😉

  137. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    That doesn’t quite read the way I meant it to… I really do appreciate your kind words. (Lesley’s been married to me for getting on for 25 years…)

    Seriously, though, I don’t know who Codon is, but (s)he is definitely Bombastic. I hope you can all appreciate the humour.

  138. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    (if his avatar fotie is anything to go by) he looks like God.

    Is that because ‘his head resembles Heaven, For there is no parting there?’
    😉

  139. Spartacus wrote:

    does this guy just write down whatever comes into his brain, and go from there? Because it seems that way. And people find him inspiring

    I liken Piper’s weird proclamations to sensational news reporting. He overhypes situations and events to draw attention to himself. His outlandish claims about God reminds me of headlines you see in supermarket tabloids. His goal is to increase or sustain his following of young reformers who are searching for truth, but not finding much in Piper’s words. There is no Biblical basis for much of what Piper teaches and preaches. As in this case, he causes more harm and confusion in the Body of Christ than good. The only folks who find him inspiring don’t have any more sense than he does!

  140. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    The vibe I get from the many Piper followers and neocalvinists is remarkably similar to the many atheists. Ugly vibe, they’re flip sides of the same coin.

    Or like each other’s evil twin.

    Like Communists and Objectivists — total opposites on the surface, Identical Beneath, eternally at each others’ throats to the death.

    Like the Half-White and Half-Black aliens in Original Star Trek’s “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”.

    Fundamentalist Righteousness and Fury don’t need to be hooked into a religion. Any belief system will do. Some convert from one to the other, but bring their Fundamentalist Righteousness along and apply it to their new One True Way.

  141. Max wrote:

    I liken Piper’s weird proclamations to sensational news reporting. He overhypes situations and events to draw attention to himself. His outlandish claims about God reminds me of headlines you see in supermarket tabloids.

    In the words of the prophet Alfred Yankovic:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GRKQm–we4

  142. Estelle wrote:

    Is that because ‘his head resembles Heaven, For there is no parting there?’

    😉

    It also resembles a black hole; which, according to the famous theorem, has no hair.

    Apparently, this sounds really bad in French, where “black hole” is a euphemism for

  143. And I used to listen to Piper’s Desiring God podcasts via the internet, when I was dumb, foolish, thinking I needed a shepherd instead of the One True Shepherd.

    Psalm 23 “The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall not want.”

    And thankfully, Praise our LORD, He is now my Shepherd, and I don’t desire John Piper any longer, thank-you very much. What in the world was I thinking? So I do identify and empathize with all of those blind sheep out there who desire to continue to bask in the stench of Piper’s foolishness and double standards.

    I believe this would be called a genuine “deliverance out of bondage!”

  144. Bridget wrote:

    Karen wrote:
    So when did Piper decide he was god?

    A very long time ago it seems.

    Predestined before the Foundation of the World…

  145. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It also resembles a black hole; which, according to the famous theorem, has no hair.

    “Fred Astaire has no hair
    Nor does a chair
    Or a chocolate éclair —
    And where is the hair on a pear?
    Nowhere, mon frere…”
    — George Carlin, “The Hair Piece”

    Apparently, this sounds really bad in French, where “black hole” is a euphemism for…

    Same in Russian; that’s why Russian astronomers call them “frozen stars”.

  146. I think the problem here is that many of you are looking for the perfect church.

    What I would say is, if you ever find the perfect church, don’t join it because you’ll spoil it!

    Yours sincerely,

    Arnold Smartarse

  147. Karen wrote:

    And when Jesus knelt before the religious folks of His day and penned words in the sand with His finger, who then was left standing in Judgement? Would Piper still be standing there, or would he have walked away as well with his tail between his legs.

    I think he would have thrown the first stone, as hard as someone of his height and weight could throw.

  148. My daughter has had two early term miscarriages. If Piper (or anyone else, for that matter) told me to my face God killed my grandchildren because of some sin my son-in-law committed, Piper might just be sitting around pontificating, for 4 to 6 weeks, on what he sin he (Piper) committed to cause God to use a “weaker vessel” to break his jaw.
    Maybe he’d preach a different sermon when the oral surgeon removed the screws and wires?

  149. Allie wrote:

    He hasn’t written about Harvey because so many Calvinistas live in Houston. I think that city was punished for driving my husband and me from the church.
    There. I said it.
    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    i.e. Just like that wildfire that hit Colorado Springs a few years back or PastorChuckSmithCalvaryChapelCostaMesa’s lung cancer diagnosis.

  150. Karen wrote:

    What in the world was I thinking?

    You weren’t thinking, that’s the point.
    You were reacting.
    Fear is a very powerful motivator.
    Fear of the lash, fear of the bogeyman, you name it.
    And it’s not just Mr. Piper and his Neo-Cal followers.
    There are many Arminian outfits that use the same tactics.
    If you truly ‘Know the Lord’, you’ll hoe the row the way we tell ya’ to.
    And if ya’ don’t? It means that you don’t know Jesus and there can be only one destination for you when you expire from this life.
    Works like a charm every time.

  151. Max wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    We’re on the same page, as usual. Don’t know if that should comfort you or terrify you.

    LP, it appears that you and I have the same ministry … to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable!

    And “Search out those with Holy Hand Grenades in their pockets and pull the pins.”

  152. I wonder what Martin Luther would have had to say about John Piper? Probably not fit for publication.

  153. Muff Potter wrote:

    A.Tumbleweed wrote:
    I’ll never understand why people follow that man.

    One word. Fear.

    The Direct Line to God, the Keys of the Kingdom, the Dispensing of Existence.

    “FEAR ALWAYS WORKS!”
    — Acting Mayor Bellwether, Zootopia

  154. I think I found it!

    “How is it, then, that you drivel like people in their second childhood?”

    From The Bondage of the Will, pg. 127 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 33

  155. A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    I wonder what Martin Luther would have had to say about John Piper? Probably not fit for publication.

    Well, Lootair (Luther) did love to frequent the beer halls*. And I suspect that when he packed a few of those big steins away he could get quite colorful.

    *remembering also that beer in Germany is not the anemic mule-piss they sell here in the States.

  156. Bridget wrote:

    But they chose and continue to choose a “culture war” scenario, just like Jesus . . . ?

    Yes, and, in all fairness, it is also important to remember that this took place in the shadow of Roe v. Wade in 1973, and that became the lens through which anything to do with “feminism” was viewed. It really did not matter how benign or even good the issue might be, it was too easy to paint women as rebellious against motherhood and and men because the most vocal feminists were, of course, the most extreme ones. That’s one reason that Susan Foh’s interpretation was accepted so uncritically at Westminster Philadelphia and why a woman’s teaching of a core doctrine has been so readily accepted by so many men and has been written into the ESV as scripture! The irony is thick and rich.

  157. Thersites wrote:

    some in the church will regret adoption of their own version of identity politics such as CBMW.

    Maybe when their daughters and sons bitterly resent them for them to be cardboard cutouts instead of real, healthy and resilient human beings modeled on Christ instead of modeled on fake conference speakers.

  158. Gram3 wrote:

    That’s one reason that Susan Foh’s interpretation was accepted so uncritically at Westminster Philadelphia and why a woman’s teaching of a core doctrine has been so readily accepted by so many men and has been written into the ESV as scripture! The irony is thick and rich.

    One other reason it was so readily accepted is that it fits a narrative that gives power to men.

    Again, so much like Jesus . . . ?

  159. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Codon – you have a bit to learn about humour, if I may say so. You haven’t quite got the fake outrage.

    I’m so disappointed! Alternate hypothesis: Codon is a UK subject vacationing (on holiday?) in Florida who has been forced to evacuate and is understandably very irritable as he or she sits in traffic on the Florida Turnpike or I-75.

    I think the post is funny, and reminds me of what many visitors from outside the U.S say about Americans. Sort of like Americans who travel and expect to find everything “just like home.” Grrrr.

  160. Just rescued a spider from the bath; it (the spider, not the bath) was a rather fine specimen of the species Eratigena atrica or Giant House Spider. Despite the name, its leg span is only around 5 cm (body length being less than 2cm) and it is quite harmless to humans.

    Giant House Spiders pose an interesting challenge to anybody trying, for instance, to rescue one from a bath. The bigger they are, the faster they can run; and they tend to run away from a human trying to pick them up – broadly speaking, an eminently rational strategy on their part. Possibly because my hand is warmer than their surroundings, however, I’ve found that once they get used to me they really get used to me, and it can be quite hard to persuade them to leave.

    I like spiders.

    IHTIH

  161. Gram3 wrote:

    Codon is a UK subject vacationing (on holiday?) in Florida who has been forced to evacuate and is understandably very irritable as he or she sits in traffic on the Florida Turnpike or I-75.

    Maybe (and, frivolity aside for a moment, all our thoughts and prayers are with those in the Caribbean and surrounding region at the moment). They certainly understand the UK parliament…

    Quite a good, if brief and expletive-laden, skit on the subtle differences between the British and Italian parliaments here:

    (Comedian from the Scottish Borders does quite a good, if brief and expletive-laden, skit on the subtle differences between the British and Italian parliaments)

  162. @ Max:
    Prayers for your family and Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, and Tennessee. Florida has never, as far as I can remember (and that’s a long time), had a hurricane go straight up the peninsula like Irma seems poised to do, never mind a huge monster as powerful as Irma.

  163. John wrote:

    You will never hear from them how some tragedy happens because of someone’s greed, or pride, or dishonest business dealings, or lies, or gluttony. Nope. Always it’s something sexual.

    And it’s never their own failings either. For example if a disaster happens in Minneapolis will John Piper come forward and say “it’s my fault for supporting CJ Mahaney!”

  164. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    all our thoughts and prayers are with those in the Caribbean and surrounding region at the moment).

    Absolutely. The pictures from the Virgin Islands were heartbreaking and unrecognizable. St. John was a paradise. What is worse for is that the destruction of the tourism infrastructure means the destruction of the income of the most vulnerable local residents.

    Speaking only for myself, your Parliament is very funny. I suspect that our Congresscreatures wish they could do what your MPs do. In the past, they were a bit rowdier, or so I hear. I think they are trying to

  165. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Giant House Spiders pose an interesting challenge to anybody trying, for instance, to rescue one from a bath. The bigger they are, the faster they can run; and they tend to run away from a human trying to pick them up – broadly speaking, an eminently rational strategy on their part. Possibly because my hand is warmer than their surroundings, however, I’ve found that once they get used to me they really get used to me, and it can be quite hard to persuade them to leave.

    I would tell them if they don’t pay rent, they simply cannot stay in my house!

  166. …pretend they are all that and a cherry on top once they get elected after they spent the entire campaign pretending they are just folks.

  167. ION: Climbing

    Czech laddie Adam Ondra has recently put up what is almost certainly the world’s hardest single-pitch rock-climb. For those who care to follow the link to a fotie thereof:

    link to a fotie thereof

    … bear in mind that, in said fotie, he is not handing on the rope, but from his left foot wedged into a small crack above him.

  168. That last comment wasn’t supposed to be all in bold, obviously – missing html tag as usual.

  169. Lydia wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:
    My wish for John Piper is that he will retire to a beachfront home where he can take a daily stroll with a muscular woman in a bikini and collect sea shells.
    Lol! The really big sins!

    He will probably pontificate about how seashells stop you giving glory to God or give an insufferable sermon on why collecting them is another thing that a woman should not be allowed to do!

  170. ZechZav wrote:

    I would tell them [spiders] if they don’t pay rent, they simply cannot stay in my house!

    They kill midges – that qualifies as paying rent!

    “Dementors are among the foulest creatures on earth, apart from midges” – Remus Lupin

  171. Anyway, it’s getting late here in Blighty.

    z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z.

  172. Jarrett Edwards wrote:

    How horrible it is for a “pastor” to basically tell a grieving family that they are the cause of their child’s death, that is not spiritual support that is spiritual abuse.

    You are right- it is spiritual abuse. That is just dreadful.

  173. We unexpectedly and tragically lost our firstborn when she was 7. John Piper is clueless. We don’t have answers to why things like this happen. The most appropriate response is, “I am so sorry. I know you’ll miss her/him every single day.” And then walk alongside parents as they work through their loss. A way to do that is to be a good listener don’t fade away.

  174. @ Lydia:
    I only watched the first 10 minutes, or so, and I thought it was very superficial.. There is so much more at play in Europe during that time than just John Calvin…..

  175. I almost never post, but am submitting a prayer request for my parents in Tampa. They are as prepared as anybody could be, but nonetheless I’m a mess. Thanks.

  176. Rachel wrote:

    I almost never post, but am submitting a prayer request for my parents in Tampa. They are as prepared as anybody could be, but nonetheless I’m a mess. Thanks.

    Prayers for your parents and all of Florida. I’m very nervous for my sister and BIL,they live in Bradenton.

  177. Rachel wrote:

    I almost never post, but am submitting a prayer request for my parents in Tampa. They are as prepared as anybody could be, but nonetheless I’m a mess. Thanks.

    Praying for you. 🙂

  178. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Max:
    Prayers for your family and Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, and Tennessee. Florida has never, as far as I can remember (and that’s a long time), had a hurricane go straight up the peninsula like Irma seems poised to do, never mind a huge monster as powerful as Irma.

    Thing is, after Harvey stalled over Houston, moved out to sea to recharge, then came inland again for a second strike on Houston; with Irma going right up the peninsula like on a strafing/bomb run; it seems as though these hurricanes were being guided for maximum damage. Not hard to make the jump to Conspiracy-a-Go-Go or Hand-a-GAWD.

  179. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    That last comment wasn’t supposed to be all in bold, obviously – missing html tag as usual.

    Nick aka Bombast – What in the world is wrong with you? I am sick and tired of your use of bold face, you may think it’s funny, but it’s offensive. Why I’ve watched Monty Python before and they’re funny and clever—but you are not clever. My forefathers left England just because of King George III’s use of bold letters. I live in a country where the misuse of the typographic arts regularly results in slaughter in the streets, biblical levels of carnage. If you use bold face again, you better be prepared for a fight to the death!

  180. ZechZav wrote:

    it’s never their own failings either. For example if a disaster happens in Minneapolis will John Piper come forward and say “it’s my fault for supporting CJ Mahaney!”

    Of course not, even when it hits them in their own driveways:

    Tom Ascol, Founders “Ministries” Blog, July 15, 2008
    https://web.archive.org/web/20130128190618/http://blog.founders.org/2008/07/display-of-divine-greatness-and-mercy.html

    “I went out first, barefooted and wearing shorts and t-shirt, and walked up to our Buick Skylark. In a perfectly timed instant, the moment my right hand gripped the door handle the most brilliant flash of light and loudest crack of thunder I have ever witnessed provided a most electrifying experience. Beginning at my right hand and traveling up my arm, down my side and right leg and foot, I got the shock of my life. I was thrown back several feet and on to the ground. The policemen let expletives fly and hovered over me, asking me questions that made no sense. Another bolt of ligtning [sic.] struck nearby and they helped me up and back inside my house, as they called for paramedics.”

    Baptist Press, Nov. 17, 1989
    http://media.sbhla.org.s3.amazonaws.com/6882,17-Nov-1989.PDF

    “The storm system moved into Georgia and caused several tornadoes around 7:30 p.m. Eastern
    time, around Atlanta. Albert Mohler, editor of the Georgia Baptist Christian Index, said his automobile was totaled when a tree fell on it at his home in Gwinnett County, east of Atlanta.”

  181. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Not hard to make the jump to Conspiracy-a-Go-Go or Hand-a-GAWD.
    Only if someone is superstitious. I guess it is not hard to jump to the conclusion that some of these guys are superstitious. Florida is going to need a lot of prayer. The thing is that recovery efforts in the Caribbean will be affected by the devastation in Florida. Pray, Wartburgers.

  182. Law Prof wrote:

    By the way, not suggesting all atheists are jerks, some are very fine people and have a lot of integrity. Even though I think they’re fools to think they could possibly obtain sufficient data to declare there is no God, that doesn’t mean they’ve completely obliterated the image of God in which they were made. Would rather have a beer with the average atheist than the average neocal.

    Everyone has a reason for thinking the way they do. I don’t think ‘fools’ is how I’d describe them. Healthy skepticism is a good thing. Unquestioning biblical literalism is worse in many ways.
    Even in polar opposition, debate must be maintained. As inneffective as the United Nations may appear, I’m convinced that outlet prevented nuclear war.
    In my wife’s church, they often bemoan the”world” (read: secular society) without realizing that our freedom to debate is the”world’s” greatest gift.

  183. Hey folks
    Could we keep the physical descriptions of revenge to a minimum? The blog is being watched and some of those individuals pretend that this is serious and then say they are being threatened. I know that isn’t what you mean. I get it. Sometimes I want to slap someone upside the head myself. One comment not approved. I am not mad at you, BTW.

  184. Jack wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    By the way, not suggesting all atheists are jerks, some are very fine people and have a lot of integrity. Even though I think they’re fools to think they could possibly obtain sufficient data to declare there is no God, that doesn’t mean they’ve completely obliterated the image of God in which they were made. Would rather have a beer with the average atheist than the average neocal.
    Everyone has a reason for thinking the way they do. I don’t think ‘fools’ is how I’d describe them. Healthy skepticism is a good thing. Unquestioning biblical literalism is worse in many ways.
    Even in polar opposition, debate must be maintained. As inneffective as the United Nations may appear, I’m convinced that outlet prevented nuclear war.
    In my wife’s church, they often bemoan the”world” (read: secular society) without realizing that our freedom to debate is the”world’s” greatest gift.

    I’m making a biblical reference there: “The fool says in their heart there is no God”. It’s something I honestly believe. It’s the darndest thing ever to think one has the right to declare. Here’s somebody, a tiny speck on a single planet which itself is a speck in an insignificant solar system surrounding a very average star in a modest galaxy in a universe with millions or billions of galaxies that is unimaginably vast—and who knows what other dimensions there are and other universes there might be? They might be endless. And yet here is this tiny speck who knows absolutely nothing about anything squeaking out across the universe: “There is no God!” Jack, that’s a side-splitter. I have no respect for someone when they think they have the data to make that pronouncement. They lose me to the point where I wonder if they’re even sane. I can understand someone saying “I haven’t seen sufficient evidence of a God”, or “I don’t think a good God would allow bad things to happen” or stuff to that effect. OK, I can work with that. But “There is no God”, as in someone knows there is none? Nahh, I’m out, baby, not wasting time on that person. By the way, in my experience most people who call themselves atheists don’t fit this category.

  185. Gram3 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Not hard to make the jump to Conspiracy-a-Go-Go or Hand-a-GAWD.

    Only if someone is superstitious. I guess it is not hard to jump to the conclusion that some of these guys are superstitious. Florida is going to need a lot of prayer. The thing is that recovery efforts in the Caribbean will be affected by the devastation in Florida. Pray, Wartburgers.

    Wasn’t one of the beefs the Romans had about these “Christians” was they weren’t superstitious enough to be a REAL religion?

  186. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Once you catch it, you need to dangle it over a candle…… you can then recreate Jonathan Edwards infamous ” sinners in the hands of an angrey G$d”…. very fitting for the post on the Piper..

  187. Muff Potter wrote:

    My grandkids and me just loved Zootopia!

    Yeah. It was one of those movies where everything just came together and fitted right into place. (Naturally it was a BIG hit in Furry Fandom; Zootopia is definitely “Furry” and is what the genre could be.)

  188. @ Jerome:
    I have heard that story. I think it would be really good to pray for Tom Ascol, his family, his Grace church, and his Cape Coral community which appears to be set to take a direct hit from Irma. It is right on the west coast near Ft. Myers and Sanibel and the expected storm surge is 8-10 feet. I hope that everyone got out.

    Al Mohler may have had his car totaled by a tree in Atlanta. By the time Irma is finished with Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, and the Carolinas, a lot of old Loblollys and Oaks a Poplars are going to be on cars and houses. And people. What Sherman didn’t do and Opal didn’t get, Irma will finish. Please pray that the South will not lose her beautiful old canopy and that people will be spared when they fall.

  189. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Not hard to make the jump to Conspiracy-a-Go-Go or Hand-a-GAWD.

    And the jump is being made:

    Actress/Celebrity Jennifer Lawrence made the news with an interview on England’s Channel 4 claiming that Harvey and Irma are “Nature’s Rage and Wrath” on America for electing Trump.

    And as I was stuck in traffic today, KFI’s early evening talk show played the audio of a viral video by the one and only Kirk Cameron at Orlando airport. Started out with The Cam saying how he was in Florida for some Christian Music Award Show, naming names neither the KFI guy or I had ever heard of. Then he went onto Hurricane Irma, and started reading from the Book of Job. In the process, he mentioned how every atom in the universe is directly controlled by God (sound familiar?) and how God sent Harvey and Irma to “teach us about humility” and “show how God is in control”. Here’s the only YouTube copy I could dig up on short notice:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2A4WsN9qgY
    (Needless to say, it started an Internet Firestorm. Just as polarized as everything else these days. Just enter “kirk cameron orlando airport” into a search engine and enjoy the ride.)

  190. Gram3 wrote:

    Al Mohler may have had his car totaled by a tree in Atlanta. By the time Irma is finished with Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, and the Carolinas, a lot of old Loblollys and Oaks a Poplars are going to be on cars and houses. And people. What Sherman didn’t do and Opal didn’t get, Irma will finish. Please pray that the South will not lose her beautiful old canopy and that people will be spared when they fall.

    I’m going to be sleeping in the pantry under the stairs because of all those trees. We don’t have a basement…

  191. Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

    Once you catch [the spider], you need to dangle it over a candle…… you can then recreate Jonathan Edwards infamous ” sinners in the hands of an angrey G$d”…. very fitting for the post on the Piper..

    Hmm… since I like spiders, I’d put it somewhere congenial to it, thereby (to some extent) recreating “sinners rescued by a God who loves them”.

  192. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Jerome:
    I have heard that story. I think it would be really good to pray for Tom Ascol, his family, his Grace church, and his Cape Coral community which appears to be set to take a direct hit from Irma. It is right on the west coast near Ft. Myers and Sanibel and the expected storm surge is 8-10 feet. I hope that everyone got out.

    Just checking livestreams on Irma before bed.
    Looks like Target Tampa.

  193. For the record, I don’t believe miscarriages are generally caused by the sin of the parent. Although also for the record, Piper is correct about the death of David and Bathsheba’s child, so it is possible God could do it. I just seriously doubt He does.

    But then I read the article by Piper and just did not hear him say what some heard him say. Perhaps this is a time when our own life experiences color our perceptions? Those of us that have lost children or nearly lost them may be incensed at anyone voicing the idea our sin caused it. BTDT and it hurts badly when someone says that. On the other hand, I cannot deny the many instances in the Bible where the sin of a parent cost the loss of the children or family. Didn’t that happen to Achen? (probably misspelled his name.) So it is within the realm of possibility God WOULD take a child as part of the conviction of sin/cost of sin in a parent’s life. We see that as total tragedy BUT if God sees that as the only means to unite that family forever in the hereafter, it isn’t tragedy from HIS perspective.

    What I got from Piper is that sin does bring pain, and when we feel the sting of that pain we need to turn or turn back to God. No argument there.

    And I do think whenever we start thinking “I could never love a God Who…..” we are into or flirting with idolatry. We want to make a God in the image of the God we want. Usually that means cream the guy who’s sin hurts me and mine, and let us off, please. But I believe in the relentless love of God, Who doesn’t so much send pain as just not step in to prevent it when and if experiencing that horrific pain is to the greater good.

  194. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Not hard to make the jump to Conspiracy-a-Go-Go or Hand-a-GAWD.
    And the jump is being made:
    Actress/Celebrity Jennifer Lawrence made the news with an interview on England’s Channel 4 claiming that Harvey and Irma are “Nature’s Rage and Wrath” on America for electing Trump.
    And as I was stuck in traffic today, KFI’s early evening talk show played the audio of a viral video by the one and only Kirk Cameron at Orlando airport. Started out with The Cam saying how he was in Florida for some Christian Music Award Show, naming names neither the KFI guy or I had ever heard of. Then he went onto Hurricane Irma, and started reading from the Book of Job. In the process, he mentioned how every atom in the universe is directly controlled by God (sound familiar?) and how God sent Harvey and Irma to “teach us about humility” and “show how God is in control”. Here’s the only YouTube copy I could dig up on short notice:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2A4WsN9qgY
    (Needless to say, it started an Internet Firestorm. Just as polarized as everything else these days. Just enter “kirk cameron orlando airport” into a search engine and enjoy the ride.)

    I think Kirk was just fine until he started taking up with neocals like Ray Comfort. Have to think if Paul were here, he’d say words to the effect of: “What has bewitched you? You started in the spirit and are now ending in the flesh!”

  195. ___

    Adoption, Eternal Life, And Salvation are for you and your children, —> all for the asking… ❤️

    Yep!

    Assurance of adoption into God’s household.
    “To all who received him (e.g. Jesus), to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God.”
    JOHN 1:12

    Assurance of eternal life.
    “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me (e.g. Jesus) has eternal life and will not be con- demned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
    JOHN 5:24

    Assurance of Salvation.
    “And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son (Jesus). He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”
    1 John 5:11-12

    Assurance of Answered Prayer.
    “Until now you have not asked for anything in my name (Jesus). Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.”
    John 16:24

    “If you remain in me(Jesus)and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.”
    JOHN15:7

    Assurance of Victory.
    “No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”
    1 Corinthians 10:13

    Assurance of Forgiveness.
    “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
    1 John 1:9

    Assurance of Guidance.
    “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.”
    Proverbs 3:5-6

    Assurance of understanding what God has freely given us.
    “We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.”
    1 CORINTHIANS 2:12

    God delights in giving good gifts to his children, so don’t forget ask!

    (See your bible for details)

    ATB

    Sòpy

    😉

  196. linda wrote:

    For the record, I don’t believe miscarriages are generally caused by the sin of the parent

    So, in your worldview, It doesn’t generally happen but it sometimes happens? Do you realize the burden that you are now putting on people by such a statement? Do you truly believe that God is in the business of sometimes (the antonym for generally) causing abortions for the sake of the kingdom. You must then also believe that God causes these abortions and does not tell a person specifically why they happened so the person is left wondering, for their entire life, if God might have caused it for their sin?

    Do you really think God causes a life to end in order to punish someone and doesn’t tell them that he did so? Do you then think people should be wondering, for their entire lives, whether their sin caused the miscarriage? And for what kind of sin would he do this? Viewing porn, cheating on one’s taxes, being unkind to other and suggesting they God is punishing them?

    linda wrote:

    And I do think whenever we start thinking “I could never love a God Who…..” we are into or flirting with idolatry.

    Seriously? Asking honest question of a God is bordering on idolatry? idolatry of what? Believing that some things are right and wrong-a moral code in our hearts to teach us right from wrong?

    I think you serve a harsh God and you are responding harshly to the sincere questions of those who love and seek God. I also think it is sometimes easier to say “God did it and since God did it it must be good instead of asking questions such as “Did God really do that?” and struggling with the answers.

    I would find it difficult to serve a God was was sneaking around, punishing me for my sins like causing my child to have a brain tumor and not telling me he was doing so. Maybe you have an insight. What sin did I commit that would cause God to make my 3 yo have a brain tumor?

    Suggestion: Do not tell your buddies that God might be causing their miscarriages.

    That makes zero sense to me as I read the Scriptures. But, if it makes you feel good to know. that God is skulking around punishing you without telling you, then go for it.

  197. @ linda:
    Also, have you ever considered the possibility that God passively allowed David and Bathsheba’s son to die as opposed to actively causing it. Just as some infants in the womb are miscarries due to horrific genetic defects, the same thing goes for infants who die right after birth.

    So, it is possible that the child of tat union was born with an unviable defect and God was not going to intervene in the saving of that child. This is called passive wrath. Back in David’s day, people used the term “struck” dead as dying from natural causes. In other words, God was not about to do a Goliath in this instance.

    http://www.evidenceunseen.com/bible-difficulties-2/ot-difficulties/1-samuel-2-chronicles/2-sam-1215-why-did-god-kill-davids-boy-for-davids-sin/

    “Did God actively judge David’s sons? Not necessarily. Sometimes the Bible speaks of dying from natural causes as being “struck” dead by God (2 Chron. 13:20). Thus when the text states, “The Lord struck the child that Uriah’s widow bore to David, so that he was very sick” (v.15), this could possibly be God’s passive wrath—not his active wrath (c.f. comments on 1 Sam. 18:10).

    But, in your book, I guess my thinking about this possibility is *idolatry* and that you are the one who is being *godly* but not struggling with it.

  198. ___

    “*Succumbing To Double Religious Jeopardy, Perhaps?” (1)

    hmmm…

    Of a truth, the theologian John Calvin, (the founder of Calvinism) was obsessed with terms like ‘the Sovereignty of god’ and ‘Predestination’. His followers became obsessed with terms like ‘the doctrines of grace’, which is nothing more that code words for their false T.U.L.I.P. theology. Their ‘default’ bible is the ‘Institutes of the Christian Religion (2)’; they adhere to Calvinist creeds like ‘the Westminster Confession of Faith’. Their religious ‘ideas’ are false and misleading. Their gospel is a (now) five hundred year old false gospel based upon the Gnostic writings of Augustine. Their message and methods cripple the Christian pulpit and exasperate the mission field. Their religion, not unlike their fellowship is progressively egotistical, argumentative, exclusionary, authoritarian and legalistic in nature. They possess absolutely no biblical assurance of the salvation Jesus came to present. They do not preached the gospel Jesus preached. They do not preach the gospel that Jesus came to establish for His people Israel.

    *

    A broken record?

    huh?

    The true message of the gospel was later preached to the gentiles (e.g. the people’s of the whole world). Calvinist don’t believe this inclusive gospel. The Calvinists have corrupted this inclusive biblical message with their own ‘exclusionary theology’ ™ .

    Is the New Calvinist a stealth religious 501(c)3 ninja crusading professionally in sheep’s clothing?

    What?

    Don’t you be deceived by the Calvinist message if it is brought to you or your church pulpit.

    That the message that God so loved everyone that He gave His only Son, that if an individual would put his or her faith in Jesus they will be adopted into the household of God, redeemed, saved, covered with the blood of Jesus, and granted eternal
    life, is the best message on the planet. Please don’t accept any other substitute!

    (Please see your bible for details)

    *

    Listen to the tide slowly turning
Lord, wash all our heartaches away
We are part of the Holy Spirit’s true fire that is burning
And from His church 21st century reformation we can build another day
But I’m frightened for your children
And the present church life that we are living is in vain
And the sunshine we’ve been waiting for
Will turn to rain

    …When the final line is over
And it’s certain that the curtain’s gonna fall
We can hide inside your sweet sweet love, Jesus
Forever more… (3)

    **

    ATB

    Sòpy
    ___
    Notes:
    *(1) The risk or disadvantage incurred by two nefarious false religious sources simultaneously. (The sovereignty of god, and predestination as presented in the ICR ( (2) Institutes of the Christian Religion) See: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes

    *
    Intermission :

    Moody Blues – “Question”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tmOZFAYeurY
    Moody Blues – “Balance”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9jhfWH1h2OQ
    Moody Blues – “Ride My See Saw”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GXHMTuoK060
    (3) adapted fr. Moody Blues – ‘The Story In Your Eyes’
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbxz0IxFHeI

    😉

  199. Pingback: Linkathon! – PhoenixPreacher UNITED STATES

  200. dee wrote:

    I would find it difficult to serve a God was was sneaking around, punishing me for my sins like causing my child to have a brain tumor and not telling me he was doing so. Maybe you have an insight. What sin did I commit that would cause God to make my 3 yo have a brain tumor?

    Maybe we shouldn’t be so quick to put words in Piper’s mouth. I’ve yet to see him ascribe the word ‘punish’ to this concept that you are discussing.

    “27 So anyone who eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord unworthily is guilty of sinning against[g] the body and blood of the Lord. 28 That is why you should examine yourself before eating the bread and drinking the cup. 29 For if you eat the bread or drink the cup without honoring the body of Christ,[h] you are eating and drinking God’s judgment upon yourself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick and some have even died.

    31 But if we would examine ourselves, we would not be judged by God in this way. 32 Yet when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned along with the world.”

  201. kinny wrote:

    Maybe we shouldn’t be so quick to put words in Piper’s mouth. I’ve yet to see him ascribe the word ‘punish’ to this concept that you are discussing.

    Please do me a favor. If I have misinterpreted what he said, could you prove it to me with other direct quotes from him? Prove it, as well, from the statement that sits on the Desiring God website. I do not believe that I am putting words in his mouth. His post seems pretty clear that God could have punished this man by killing his unborn baby. And if that was the case, God somehow did not clearly convey he had done so. In my understanding of Scripture, God is loud and clear when he does something radical-like take a life.

    Secondly, you use a Biblical description of communion, a sacrament. This is not the verse to use in this situation since communion was not the issue. I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to say.

  202. Huge difference between the concepts of punishment and discipline. I think u know that. Piper most likely would deny the former.

    I Cor 11 is at minimum a passage that shows causality in relationships between God and his children that u seem to be adamantly denying. People died because they were disobedient in not discerning the body of Christ. Pretty radical and frightening.

    Oh, and there are no sacred cows (sacraments) in the kingdom of Jesus. Just common life shared by those United by the blood of Jesus.

  203. Kinny wrote:

    Huge difference between the concepts of punishment and discipline. I think u know that. Piper most likely would deny the former.
    I Cor 11 is at minimum a passage that shows causality in relationships between God and his children that u seem to be adamantly denying. People died because they were disobedient in not discerning the body of Christ. Pretty radical and frightening.
    Oh, and there are no sacred cows (sacraments) in the kingdom of Jesus. Just common life shared by those United by the blood of Jesus.

    Dee was asking you to address the point made about Piper, does he or does he not claim God will punish a man for viewing porn by killing his unborn baby? You seemed in your first post to say “No, that’s not what Piper was saying, you’re putting words in his mouth.” But in the follow up, when Dee asked you to support your statement in light of what Piper said in Desiring God, you seemed to be switching the goalposts entirely by then supporting the concept that you said Dee was wrongly accusing Piper of making. So are you now saying Dee wasn’t misinterpreting Piper and that he made a valid, Biblical point with which you agree? And then you end with that nonsequitur about sacred cows, common life and the Blood, which has nothing to do with anything being discussed.

    Kinny, you’re not coming across coherently. Stick to a thought, answer the questions presented. If I can be so blunt, this type of confusion is just what many people cite as a reason not to follow Piper, having read many of his hilariously incoherent tweets. This is also a phenomenon I’ve noted among many of his followers: absolute mental disarray.

  204. Kinny wrote:

    Huge difference between the concepts of punishment and discipline. I think u know that. Piper most likely would deny the former.

    Huge difference? OK-for the sake of argument, suppose I give you that. So, here we go. God is sneaking around, stealth *disciplining* people by killing their unborn children and not telling them. This is somehow better?

    Also, I did not put words in John Piper’s mouth. We always provide links to the articles in question. You may not like our interpretation of his words but you cannot accuse us of not revealing exactly what he had to say.

  205. Law Prof wrote:

    And then you end with that nonsequitur about sacred cows, common life and the Blood, which has nothing to do with anything being discussed.

    I didn’t get that part either so I stuck to what I did understand. Stealth *discipline* makes as much sense as stealth punishment which makes no sense at all.

  206. dee wrote:

    I didn’t get that part either so I stuck to what I did understand. Stealth *discipline* makes as much sense as stealth punishment which makes no sense at all.

    How bout’ both good and bad stuff happens to the good, the bad, and the ugly alike?
    No rhyme or reason for it.

  207. dee wrote:

    I didn’t get that part either so I stuck to what I did understand. Stealth *discipline* makes as much sense as stealth punishment which makes no sense at all.

    Sorry I am not being fully coherent. Long term health issues do make it more difficult for me to articulate clearly/quickly, plus weeks of only 12 hrs. sleep and having to support a family make it even more challenging.

    Here are some of your statements that seem to me to be clearly twisting Piper’s concept of loving discipline/chastisement into the idea of punishment/revenge/exacting justice:

    “Was God getting back at me for the times I disobeyed”

    ” I do not believe that God is running around, killing babies and destroying Houston while playing a game of “Guess why I am furious with you?!””

    “God comforted me and did not condemn me for all of my sins.”

    ” You serve a loving, forgiving Father who is not out there planning His next secret act of revenge against your family for your sin.”

    “He’s watching you very closely and plotting his next move to punish you…”

    “I would find it difficult to serve a God was was sneaking around, punishing me for my sins like causing my child to have a brain tumor and not telling me he was doing so”

    “But, if it makes you feel good to know. that God is skulking around punishing you without telling you, then go for it.”

    My statement about the sacred cows was in reference to you compartmentalizing the I Cor. 11 passage and stating it does not apply since it’s referring to a “sacred” activity. I’m not “moving the goal posts” by referencing that passage…merely showing a cause (disobedience of a believer) was resulting in an effect (suffering, sickness, death) of people who are loved by God in the NT since you dismissed OT examples. No ideas of punishment and exacting revenge or justice is to be found here.

    The supper shared by those in Corinth was a meal that satisfied their hunger and united them around the death and life of Christ. In the New Covenant all things are sacred and are to be done to the glory of God. Those that got sick and those that died because they pigged out and didn’t have the decency to wait for the poor folks did not know the cause until Paul told them much later in a letter. The canon wasn’t complete until four centuries later…betcha there were many people suffering the same effects and not knowing exactly why. Was God being unfair? Certainly not.

    Perhaps, if you would have made clear to the readers here what Piper did say in his response to that man:

    “”Every loss that we endure as sinful children of God have two designs: one from Satan, one from God. Satan designs our unbelief and rebellion and renunciation and guilt and paralysis and loss of faith. God designs our purification and that we would hope less in this world and more in God who raises the dead.

    I don’t know whether our friend who wrote this question lost his child in miscarriage as a direct discipline from God because of his pornography. I do not know. He does not know. I do know that in the loss of the child, God wills a new humility and a new submission and a new faith and new purity through the pain of this loss…

    So, what our friend must do in this confusion — he says, “I am confused.” Okay, so I am saying, what he must do in his confusion is stop fretting about whether his pornography was the direct cause of his miscarriage. He should stop fretting about that. He will never know for sure the answer to that question, short of some direct revelation. Whether he knew it was or wasn’t, the lesson remains the same. The Lord gives and the Lord has taken away. And God’s merciful design for our friend is that he worship. Blessed be the Lord (Job 1:21). Worship more deeply the way Job did.

    God also designs that he renounce sin more fully the way Job did and that he lay afresh on the power of the Holy Spirit to flee all temptation and that he renounce in the presence of his wife for her joy that he is done with this sin.””

    you most likely would not have solicited all the “WTF” and “if Piper told me God killed my babies because of…I’ll knock his teeth out and break his jaw” responses.

    I’ve greatly benefited from some of your posts on Piper and the responses from the women around here, no doubt (have stated that numerous times in the past), but I think you’re take on Piper has gone to the point of picking/pissing at times and you can’t see it, nor can the inner circle of posters that you hold dear, which is why you seem overly critical on someone like linda who doesn’t necessarily agree with you.

    Just my .02

  208. I will also add that I find it ironic that Luther came out of the Wartburg with a change of heart that had terrible consequences to the body of Christ, namely, that he decided to unite the cross with the crown as many of the other Reformers sadly did.

    Will pray that your continuing efforts will not divide the body, but rather unite them solidly around Jesus.

  209. kinny wrote:

    namely, that he decided to unite the cross with th hie crown as many of the other Reformers sadly did.

    That was going on long before the Reformation. The Reformation only continued the bloodbath.

  210. Bridget wrote:

    kinny wrote:

    namely, that he decided to unite the cross with th hie crown as many of the other Reformers sadly did.

    That was going on long before the Reformation. The Reformation only continued the bloodbath.

    My point being that pre-Wartburg Luther’s views sided with the Anabaptist.

  211. kinny wrote:

    I think you’re take on Piper has gone to the point of picking/pissing at times and you can’t see it, nor can the inner circle of posters that you hold dear, which is why you seem overly critical on someone like linda who doesn’t necessarily agree with you.

    I do not think you understand the purpose of this blog. It does not exist to merely let everyone spout their viewpoint and go on their merry way. I bear no ill will to anyone who disagrees with me. You do understand that I am paying for this blog site and that I am actively soliciting comments in order to have a discussion, right? We allow almost every comment we receive to be posted, including this comment of yours.

    I happen to disagree with Linda and, because this is my blog, I push back, attempting to see if she, along with others, can answer my questions. I would do the same with an atheist or anyone else outside the faith. I certainly have no trouble discussing my thoughts with those within the faith. In fact, I let you comment and push back at me.

    And anyone who appears to accuse me or anyone on this blog of bordering on idolatry deserves to be challenged a bit unless you think we should merely respond and say, “Thank you” and move along. Or perhaps you would prefer us to not respond at all and let you all say what you will. Then this blog becomes merely a notebook for people to record their thoughts.

    Disagreement is not cruel. If you want to find a blog that doesn’t give a hoot about what you say, there are plenty of others out there. Instead, I try to understand those who disagree with me. And, believe it or not, I occ. change my mind about things. I have grown much in the 9 years I have been writing.

    It’s actually interesting that you should bring this subject up up because I am currently auditing (starting tonight a seminary course emphasizing 2 Corinthians 10-13 in which Paul is caught in a bit of a sticky wicket. Does he defend himself and be called arrogant or does he stay quiet and be called weak? I sometimes feel like I am caught in the same trap.

    Back to your comments: I do not think I am putting words in Piper’s mouth and to be sure that doesn’t happen, I link to exactly what he said. I can assure you that I am not the only one who disagrees with him on this one not am I the only one who has had something to say about Piper’s apparent trajectory, so I am not being unreasonable. I just disagree with you. Convince me otherwise.

    I do believe that Piper is saying that God stealthily punishes (or disciplines-whichever word you personally prefer) people for their sins. I disagree with that. In my reading of Scripture-and I tend to emphasize the whole of Scripture as opposed to word by word analysis-I do not see God invoking a punishment or discipline upon people unless they know why it is happening. I find God to be rather straightforward in the matter. I think he is that way because he wishes to draw all men to himself and that means helping us to understand him more clearly.

    You pick one of the most confusing Scripture verses in the New Testaments as a proof text since we rarely see people dropping dead from coming to the table lightly. Maybe you have kept a record of this occurring in your own church life. I would be interested in seeing the evidence of this. Sadly, in a couple of churches that I attended, I saw a rather flippant approach to communion on the part of the church and on the part of the people. I did not see a significant rise in the death rate at either church.

    You see, God even forgives us when we are flip, tired, angry etc. He even does that when we approach communion as a matter of form and not of the heart and I do not think, unless you can prove to me otherwise, that God is killing off people who come to the table unprepared or thoughtlessly. I think he works with all of us within that circumstance. In fact, I left my last church for precisely that reason and attend a church that does a wonderful job in how they view and approach communion which we take on a weekly basis, preceded by a time of confession.

  212. @ Dee Parsons:

    Thanks for your response.

    I believe your first four paragraphs were based on a misunderstanding of what I am implying regarding your response to Linda. Of course the purpose of this blog is to interact with folks who agree and disagree with you (and I’m grateful you aren’t a coward and let dissenting opinions stand), but if you genuinely are about wanting feedback with those who don’t hold to your opinion, then don’t open both barrels on them in response while leaving a gracious spirit in the closet. That’s what I’m implying by stating ‘overly critical’. It’s not the first time you’ve treated Linda in that way.

    Remember in your early years how you stated constantly that if one person voiced an alternative opinion there were probably a hundred more out there that are thinking the same thing?

    I still believe any rational person who reads the link you posted regarding Piper’s response to the question at hand in this blog could not possibly come away with the ideas that I copied and pasted from your comments about it. Seems to me you caved and responded emotionally instead of logically, and ended up twisting his words. After all, your disdain of Piper is not small.

    Not even Piper believes God punishes his children. He states on his Desiring God website:

    “When you suffer physical pain, and it lasts a long time, and seems to get worse instead of better, and it even seems that it may end in death and not healing, the accuser (our own thoughts, the devil, Job’s friends) comes and says, “It’s punishment. You are under God’s condemnation. That’s why you are suffering so much.” How are you going to survive that assault? Answer: With Romans 8:1, “No, I am not under condemnation. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And I trust Christ, my Righteousness and my Pardon. My sins are covered. I will not come into condemnation. I have passed from death to life (John 5:24). Be gone tempter. Oh, Christ let your power be perfected in my pain.”

    There is a huge difference between the punitive aspects of punishment and the loving discipline of a Father to his children, and for you to deny it is being intellectually dishonest and totally unfair/uncharitable to Piper.

    Lastly, I Cor. 11 is not one of the most confusing passages “because we don’t see people dropping dead from dropping to the table lightly” (your remarks), but rather, it states many people got weak and sick, while a lesser amount died (probably after a battle with illness).

    I’ve been around many people in my four decades of “church” life that have gotten sick (some very sick and subsequently died), but cannot with certainty say any of it was a result from them not discerning the body of Christ properly. Some of it could have been (based on I Cor 11), but no one ever said “God told me I’m being disciplined because I didn’t honor the Jackson’s and the Smith’s (who I don’t really care for because they eat cat meat, while I rescue every cat I can) and went ahead before they arrived and helped myself to the entire meal and got tipsy on the wine”.

    The majority of the groups I was part of were abdicating the headship of Christ, were void of the Spirit of God, and distorted (via ritualization) a simple (yet important) meal/feast Paul speaks of that maintains the unity/oneness people share in Christ.

    Can we really expect God to be present disciplining his children as he did in the days of Corinth with so many modern day “fake” and polarized gatherings? Probably not.

  213. Every time you write something about Piper, I read your version first and end up feeling like “judging” the guy for interpreting the word of God so wrongly. But that attitude about him and his teachings changes automatically (almost every time), the moment I click into the link that directs to the original Desiring God page and I read what is actually being said there….It’s so sad to see how you always take a genuinely decent post from John Piper and make it sound so horrifying. It’s like the Pharisees who always twist and turn everything that Jesus has to say and try to find faults for the same reason that they never actually liked Jesus to begin with. I don’t even think the entire purpose of this post and even the blog is centered towards helping people turn away from “false” teachings more than it is about judging and mocking people who are equally saved by the same blood that we all are. Cuz the truth is, there is no better right or better wrong when it comes to the bible; there is only RIGHT and WRONG. And criticizing Pastors(even the wrong ones) the way you do here doesn’t make you the better “RIGHT”, it just makes you equally, WRONG!