'THE BEST IS YET TO COME'
Quote from the top of Perry Noble's Facebook page
Downtown – Anderson, South Carolina
A week ago Dee wrote an enlightening post entitled Perry Noble Goes on a Rant and Demonstrates Why He Doesn't Belong in the Pulpit, and it generated much discussion. Dee ended her post with these words:
One thing is certain. There is much more that is unknown this story and, in my opinion, Noble needs to stay out of the pulpit. That rant sealed the deal for me.
Little did we know that Perry Noble had already filed Articles of Incorporation for a new church named…(see screen shot below)
How original! There is nothing novel about the name Noble has chosen for his new church plant. We already have a church by that name here in North Carolina (link). Another one is located in Illinois, and a quick Google search reveals there are others….
We are grateful that Warren Throckmorton is staying on top of developments involving Perry Noble. Earlier today he alerted his readers about the Second Chance Church, which is how we found out about it. Throckmorton wrote:
After NewSpring Church former pastor Perry Noble was fired by the church he founded, he went into a brief period of media silence. The firing related to alcohol use and family issues and the response was to enter rehab followed by a helping relationship with psychologist John Walker. More recently, Noble launched a consultation business called the Growth Company which targets both businesses and churches. Even more recently, Noble has been preaching at churches as a guest speaker. Now, apparently, Noble plans to launch a new church — Second Chance Church.
We had no idea that Perry Noble was in our neck of the woods a few weeks ago (see his speaking schedule). What a missed opportunity! No doubt those who attended the Incite Conference loved hearing Perry. Some of those who likely attended were the ones who started the Change.org Petition to Reinstate Pastor P at Newspring (see screenshot below).
The goal a year ago (when the petition was posted) was to get 100 supporters; however, only 5 signed the petition, and now it's closed.
We assume that the Second Chance Church will be meeting in the vicinity of Anderson, South Carolina. Since one of NewSpring's congregations gathers in Anderson, it will be interesting to see how many abandon the NewSpring ship and set sail with Noble. Hopefully, there won't be any antics between factions like those that happened to James Duncan, who documented what occurred over at Pajama Pages.
BTW, if this one doesn't work out, Noble could next use the name Another Chance Church. There's already a church in Virginia that goes by that name.
Sorry, but I can't resist sharing this song that was a big hit when I was in college long, long ago… I was humming it as I was putting this post together. 🙂
First again?
Two. Second Chance, Second Post. BAM!!!!!
I love Perry Nobles name, ” Pastor Pee”!
@ drstevej: 🙂
@ Jackie Newton:
Maybe that's why he didn't get much support with that petition. 😉
@ Ian:
You're an early bird. Hope you got a good night's sleep.
Do you think Perry might do a little sheep stealing from Newspring? I know of 5 people who would go with him.
Heat’s blown over, time for The Comeback.
Just like Jimmy Swaggart, plant a new Church and rustle as many sheep from the old one as possible.
“IO, TRIOMPHE!”
Jackie Newton wrote:
It’s appropriate.
Deb wrote:
Not sleeping too well at the moment – family issues. Please pray.
Perry’s apparently trying to pull a Mark Driscoll, though unlike Driscoll, Perry’s trying to mount his new church in the same city as his former one. By the sound of his rant, this might be deliberate, an act of revenge against the church that “wronged” him.
Also, wonder if this song will be performed by the worship band at Perry’s new church: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRkaPdfjzEk
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m trying to resist flippant comments but it is hard when something like this comes up. I simply do not get the “Petition to Reinstate Pastor P at Newspring”. What is the motivation to prop someone up and put them back into a position they have proven they are unfit to hold? They may claim compassion but it has to be something less heroic. If these supporters actually cared for “Pastor P” they would have to admit that a pastor-ship is the last thing the guy needs. Seriously, I am curious.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
For sure!
There are other churches named,
“Second Chance Church ‘, I guess you can’t make this stuff up!
I’m sorry but all I can think of, is second chance to get fleeced or, slightly used salvation, etc. You get the drift. Face slap!
I think a more appropriate church name would be Reflux Church.
The change.org petition certainly looks disrespectful to Newspring congregation from where I sit. For one thing, that’s not what change.org is for in the first place. To be fair to the Newspring organsation, they don’t seem to’ve taken the petition seriously and it looks as though only the ringleaders signed it. In fact, the number of signatures is similar to the number of commenters TWW had last week claiming to support Mr Noble. You wonder whether it’s the same people! (Or person…)
I have been exploring Perry Noble’s blog. There’s a lot of of words about how to be a great leader, and sales pitches for PN conferences on how to be a great leader (self-aggrandizement and sales pitches for the great opportunity to bask in Perry’s glory) ……… not much about Jesus, salvation, love, etc.
I did stumble upon this piece ….. uhm, does he realize he is describing himself? Oh, don’t skip the sales pitch at the end of the article!
https://perrynoble.com/blog/10-signs-a-leader-is-losing-it
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
” There’s gold in them pews! “
@ Ian:
Keeping you in my prayers.
It would be very hard to have any empathy towards those who follow him given all that’s known. Kind of how I feel towards those who still follow Driscoll.
@ Jack:
This saying comes to mind…
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Then at the very least he should pass a urine test before being allow on stage again?
Sorry, I’ll show myself the door.
Thersites wrote:
Faith in their REAL Personal LORD and Savior. Following, and marvelling, and worshipping, saying “Who Is Like Unto Pastor Pee? Who Can Stand Against Him?”
AnonInNC wrote:
I see your 38 Special and raise you one Olivia Newton John:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2hawbp5XT4
I would suggest Noble call his church “Not A Chance.”
The best is yet to come.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
It's startling how many followers Perry Noble has on Twitter.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
How’s about The Best Has Come and Gone?”
Important comment by Warren Throckmorton
Warren Throckmorton Mod mirele • 16 hours ago
No, this is all wrong. For awhile the psychologist had a video of Noble touting the psychologist’s services. I contact him and he took it down. However, he didn’t answer my questions about the dual relationships citing confidentiality.
Everyone should carefully read the comment section of the Throckmorton post. I found the comments on the psychologist involved most concerning. According to some commenters, the psych dude has been involved with Noble for 6 years. Is that correct? I don’t know but it it is, then ….lots to question.
I love that ‘we’ve ALL made mistakes’ rant. I’ve made mistakes. I would like to be senior pastor of your church, thanks. Please give me all the monies.
I think Noble’s rant the other day about how he was going to make a living told the tale. This is about money. This is his chosen career, and the fact that he is an alcoholic will not deter him.
dee wrote:
If there ever was a best, it has surely, Come and Gone.
Once again, it is important to understand that Lucretia Noble is not living with Noble from all reports. She is not stupid. She is a primary care physician. They have a daughter who looks to be around middle school age. In these situations, it is always wise to see who the family is responding. They are not which says smelling loud and clear to me.
I hope that NewSpring is not pressuring her to go back to her husband. She would be wise to listen to her gut in this one.
Lea wrote:
Your comment is excellent. He is an alcoholic although, from what I can tell, he has never used those words. That makes it even more concerning. That rant was downright scary to anyone with half a brain. We are watching a man who looked like he had serious problems.
Think about it. His psychologist was advertising he was Perry Noble’s shrink. Warren got him to take it down because it is unethical to do something like that. Who is this guy? I am planning to write something about this in the near future.
Here’s the deal Noble stated
“John Walker has been my therapist for around seven years now and I hold him in highest regard. In those seven years I’ve allowed him to speak into me; however, I am now humbly submitting myself to him and giving him authority over me as I believe he will serve as my pastor, my psychologist and my spiritual formations director in this next season”
This therapist knew this stuff was going on for 7 years. Now, he’s going to counsel Perry some more? SMH
Jack wrote:
The cult of personality has darn near taken over the American church! Driscollites, Piperites, Nobleites, etc. abound. Paul warned the church about this:
“Now this is what I mean: Every one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” (1 Corinthians 1:12-13)
Were you baptized in the name of Perry Noble?! A lot of folks are professing to be Christ-Followers, when they are really following someone else. Forgive Perry Noble for his past transgressions? Yes. Restore him to ministry? NO! What does it take in America these days for a pastor to be disqualified from that office?!
Second chances? When a man steps into a pulpit, he takes on an awesome responsibility before God – the chance of a lifetime, one time. If pastors paint a picture that they are no better than the pew in holy living, how can they exhort others to holiness? When Paul said “I urge you to imitate me”, he was instructing those to whom he preached to “be followers of me, as I also am of Christ.” In the cult of personality, Christ is superseded by self.
Preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ is serious business … we need servants of God who take their calling seriously. There are too many pulpiteers who do otherwise, who draw great followings after them. When will this madness end?!
dee wrote:
What?? That is really odd. I don’t think it’s actually ‘healthy’ to give your therapist ‘authority’ in the first place. And a psychologist is not your pastor. I hope this nonsense is coming from Perry himself because it doesn’t sound like good practice at all to me!
Alcoholic is sort of a colloquial term, but once you’ve been fired and your family has left because of your problem with alcohol, it is clear that you have deep problems with dependence. There are a lot of functional alcoholics who never get to that point. Things must have been really bad.
@ Max:
Spot on.
Thersites wrote:
It’s the “but” that breaks speech free from the constraints of civility and the “because” that makes it ok. I don’t always make comments for a cheap humor, “but” I will in this case “because” we all need a laugh and I firmly believe it was mentioned in the article for just this reason. So, here it is in the form of an update to the story.
Due to financial considerations, Noble has switched psychologist from “Johnnie Walker” to “Evan Williams”.
Lea wrote:
It certainly appears that Walker was practicing some form of parental transference ‘therapy’ with Noble, which is neither healthy nor beneficial. All in all, I suspect that Walker viewed Noble in the same manner that Noble viewed New Spring (and the ministry as a whole) – as steady stream of income.
Jesus told us to watch out for these guys in Matthew 24:24, “For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.”
What is it about this group of preaching “rock stars” that makes people fawn all over them and hand over their money? I just don’t get it–not even remotely. People need to wake up!
God never instructed us to check our brains at the door and blindly follow these vaunted “church leaders”…in fact He encourages us to ‘try the spirits’ and to be ‘good Bereans’ when it comes to examining these men and their doctrine. God is not intimidated by our scrutiny!
Burwell wrote:
The money minded attracts, the money minded.
Root 66 wrote:
Shallow folks like to swim in shallow water.
A long time ago when we were in Greenville, South Carolina we thought it might be worthwhile to drive to Anderson and hear Perry Noble speak at his New Spring church.
On the way to Anderson we somehow turned off the parkway and ended up in a very rural area. Being lost, we needed directions to get where we wanted to go. The only place around which was open early Sunday was a rather run down convenience store with an old pick-up parked out front. The store clerk pointed to a water tower in the distance and said that’s where we wanted to go. As we navigated our way towards the water tower we came across a huge flea market and decided to make a quick visit. We had some peanuts roasted on an antebellum peanut roaster and the quick visit turned into hours. We never made it to the church.
dee wrote:
If he ain’t fixed yet, he probably won’t be!
Ken G wrote:
You made the right decision!
Burwell wrote:
As with Jane Aquanet of Spin Dale or Spindale, I wonder how anyone with a minimally functioning brain would get within spitting distance of any of this nonsense. Honestly.
@ Grainne:
“Many men claim to be men of unfailing love, but who can find a faithful man?” (Proverbs 20:6)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E05kjABjoNY&feature=related
scott hendrixson wrote:
I thought you were just making a joke, but then I saw the guys name actually is ‘john’ walker! oy.
Max wrote:
Yes, but the shallows seem to be filled with sharks!
I once had a professor that said, “When people open their Bibles, they close their minds.” That’s always stuck with me and I’ve since made it my aim to keep my heart (and spirit) open when I look at God’s Word. His Word is life-changing and life-giving, and it will stand even after all of these guys have bilked the ‘shallow people’ for everything they’ve got! If only people desired “thus saith the LORD” instead of having itching ears, Noble, Driscoll, et al would have to go out and get real jobs!
@ Ken G:
Must have been divine providence. God works in mysterious ways. 😉
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Triumph des Willens
drstevej wrote:
Brilliant. I laughed out loud.
Reflux Church
We Burn for God
We need a medication for Reflux Church Syndrome. Maybe… Wartburgerin. Side effects may include wisdom, discernment, the ability to spot charlatans and hold people accountable, good humor, an appreciation for food and recipes, lack of comfort with the status quo, cultural perspective, and general irritability in the presence of hypocrisy.
Root 66 wrote:
Amen! Folks get what they want. If you don’t seek and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you into truth, there will always be some man waiting to feed you error.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
WT includes this in his article, “At the end of July, Noble posted a reflection after a year of being in recovery. He described a bit about his experience since going into rehabilitation in Tucson, AZ. Curiously, he did not mention his wife or former church.”
As Of Now, Comrade, She Never Existed!
Doubleplusunwife.
So Pastor P is making his public comeback and starting Reflux Church, all the while pretending his wife never existed. But every few days he must see her to pick up the kids or talk to her about other stuff separated married people need to talk about. And the hundred thousand or so fans have no problem with this because he makes such wonderful speeches! His marriage is none of our beeswax!
Root 66 wrote:
In “The Confidence Game: Why We Fall for It … Every Time”, Maria Konnikova writes that the oldest profession is that of the Con, the Confidence Artist:
“They wear suits and ties, host corporate retreats, look like legitimate self-help movements of modern corporate America* … but they wear at your sense of self and slowly change the parameters of your world. They are all founded on meaning, community: what everybody wants… Spiritual cons exploit us at our most vulnerable. And because the process is so natural and insidious, it is particularly difficult to resist. You become a sucker almost in spite of yourself.”
Discernment? Watchman Nee wrote “Spiritual Reality or Obsession”, a free pdf if you google the title. “… obsession is self-deception…he who deceives people is a liar; he who deceives himself is obsessed…obsession is rooted in pride.” [obsessive pride being the confidence game or con, in Konnikova’s book]
[*or they wear jeans and T’s with fab hair, like celebs, all a part of the con.]
Lea wrote:
I’m waiting for his next shrink to be named James “Jim” Beam…
Ken G wrote:
That massive flea market would be the Anderson Jockey Lot, it’s kind of a local landmark in the Anderson area. I’ve been there quite a few times during my college years (Clemson), though it’s been over a decade since my last visit. Fortunately, I only went to Noble’s church once during my time in college, and that was because two of the guys in my dorm took me there. I don’t remember much from that visit, except that it was held at Anderson University at the time. Guess whatever Noble preached about that day didn’t have a huge impact on me.
Root 66 wrote:
I dunno. I don’t think a lot of people even bother to open their Bibles. They see someone on TV and that person becomes their Bible.
I made the same decision while I was in college, though, never to take my beliefs for granted. I would rather not know the answer to something than hold tight to something or someone false. And I’ve met a lot of people in the church who are so obsessed with following a certain framework that they have no idea what the Bible actually says.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Now I’m thinking Makers Mark sounds pretty religious…
I am only about 45 minutes from Anderson. I actually think it’s probably not the best place to put a wannabe megachurch, but Noble doesn’t strike me as much of a strategist. That’s probably going to cause him problems.
I think Newspring must have had a strategist/organizer in the background that helped make it successful. A lot of people think it’s the lead pastor with all the charisma that makes a church successful, but usually there’s someone who puts it all together in the background that is the real mastermind.
ishy wrote:
Yes.
ishy wrote:
Billy Graham did the preaching, George Wilson ran the org. (In no way comparing them, however to the present topic of the post.)
ishy wrote:
ishy wrote:
Good observation.
Dave A A wrote:
“SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
— Leon Uris, Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin, describing a Nuremburg Rally
“WHO IS LIKE UNTO PASTOR PEE? WHO IS ABLE TO STAND AGAINST HIM?”
— paraphrase of Rev.13:4
“THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN! THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”
— Acts 12:22
I don’t think any of these celebrity motivational speakers are really talking about “second chances”. Once you’ve established yourself as a bookseller, speaker and guru, it’s a job for life.
ishy wrote:
Not “that person”.
The spin-doctored Public Image of “that person”.
ishy wrote:
As Brigham Young was to Joseph Smith. (Though in that historical example, the two were NOT simultaneous. More like BY picked up the pieces and worked with them after JS got shot.)
And with Reflux Church, the Joseph Smith is trying anew without a Brigham Young.
Muff Potter wrote:
Which is itself the spin-doctoring for a HUGE Revival Meeting.
Lotsa pageantry, lotsa preaching. All leading up and pointing to a charismatic Lead Pastor.
Headless Unicorn Guy
Not “that person”.
The spin-doctored Public Image of “that person”.
You are right, but it’s even worse than that. Even if they do terrible things, those people are first in line refusing to believe their imaginary friend could ever do something like that.
Reminds me of some guy friends I had in college and their manic pixie dream girls. They’d tell me all about how she is “perfect for them” until I’d inevitably ask if they’ve actually had a conversation with them. The answer was always no. *sighs*
Dave A A wrote:
Stealing my shtick, huh?
ishy wrote:
Anime Waifu is NOT a two-way communications medium…
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManicPixieDreamGirl
ishy wrote:
Yes, most celebrity pastors have leadership behind the scenes that make it happen. The celebrity is not there because of his business savvy (much of the American church is really a business), but because he has good looks, a touch of charisma, and a gift of gab. Noble only has 1 out of 3, so he needs a lot of leadership going on behind the scenes.
Perhaps you noticed that I didn’t mention a calling of god or anointing for ministry in the above as requirements for mega-church. That’s because you can do church without that in America. Just prop up a pretty-boy who can talk the talk … walk the walk is not necessary to be a successful preacher these days. A weird magnetic personality, a wicked past that identifies with the pew, or some unique gimmick can substitute for good looks.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Uh oh — you forgot to register your shtick as a trademark ™.
@ Max:
You know Max, I had some pretty rebellious days in my youth. Men in the pulpit eluding, ” a wicked past “, would have troubled me then, as much as it does now. One does not brag on wickedness. It’s humbling to admit, we’ve done evil in God’s sight. Certainly isn’t something to revel in.
I know without a doubt God forgives our past behavior. Usually though if we speak of those rebellious days, it’s done quietly, and often through tears.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
What no you tube for Neil Diamond’s ,, Brother love salvation show ?
Mae wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5va1iaLj2M
Mae wrote:
But there is an element in American Christianity that has really itchy ears for Spectacular (and/or JUICY!) Testimonies. Sort of a “Pornography for the Pious”, giving the Church Lady types their fix of the JUICY Stuff while still remaining Respectable.
Mae wrote:
There are men in the pulpit who use their wicked past to promote their ministries. They keep bringing it up to attract folks who have had a similar wicked past. They just need to get over it! If Christ has set you free, live like it and sing a different tune!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
🙂 Thanks.
Max wrote:
I dislike this idea that because people made awful choices they are somehow better or more spiritual than people who didn’t. I think some of this emphasis ‘here is my testimony’, when your testimony consists of you doing stupid or terrible things, promotes that thinking.
That said, we learn a lot from mistakes and I’m not opposed to talking about them. But there is a line that seems to get crossed somehow…
I don’t much care about people’s pasts, but I do think trust is earned and has to be kept to be a shepherd of others. Though I haven’t met many megachurch pastors and Christian celebrities who were true shepherds. And I’ve met a few of them in my years at NAMB, LU, and SEBTS. Or I’ve met their wives and kids and knew that they were not who their public persona proclaimed.
I do have admit that as much as I disagreed with Jerry Falwell, he never once forgot my name even though I only was introduced to him once. He never failed to stop and see how I was doing when I was a student. I went to churches smaller that LU for years where the pastor never once remembered me.
In the OP Deb wrote, “We assume that the Second Chance Church will be meeting”
It crosses the mind that this may not be a safe assumption to make. Pastor P has said/posted NOTHING in public about Second Chance Church. His fans have no idea he even filed the papers. If Warren hadn’t done the research, no one would.
So its POSSIBLE that
A: He’s just getting an early start on a church he might decide to plant months or years from now. He’s doing this just as a Plan B (ala Pete Wilson) in the event his Growth biz fails to grow.
or B: It’s just a Non-Profit branch of his business for accounting and tax purposes.
@ Lea:
A line does get crossed. I don’t think it’s emotionally healthy, for the speaker or the listener, to take a trip down sinful memory lane.
Mae wrote:
As I said on Warren’s comment thread: I fear that in years to come, the name will change to, “Fooled You Twice Church”.
Max wrote:
Three more reasons why I can’t be a preacher at a 9Marks church.
Gram3 wrote:
Ahhh, Gram3 … 1 out of 3 ain’t bad!
@ Dave A A:
C: Whatever combination he can make happen? I think child support is not optional, and he needs to get a plan together for the future. But that’s just me being all about the numbers.
Max wrote:
The “charisma” is just my meds making me sound like Piper. I might fool DeYoung, but I would never get past Leeman.
@ Dave A A:
Great points!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Yes. It's all they know.
A few weeks ago I broke the story of Perry Noble’s new church on my blog, although the name of the church was a bit off:
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2017/07/perry-noble-announces-his-new-church-in.html
Church of Universal Life at Timmonsville (C.U.L.T.) Your readers might find this satire piece a bit amusing.
@ Tom R:
Looking forward to reading your satire.
@ Tom R:
C.U.L.T. … As well as the CLUB – An Hispanic satellite in Bradenton, Florida is planned, and will be called Church de Life Universal at Bradenton.
LOL.
@ Max:
I live in Anderson, SC (have lived here my entire life). The biggest surprise to me is that this isn’t huge news here in town. I first saw it early afternoon yesterday when pajamapages tweeted it. I shared it on my fb page but I never saw anyone else on fb share it. A year ago it was the talk of the town. I was away at a church camp (I’m a youth pastor) when his dismissal happened. Got back home and everyone was like ‘start a new church/you’ll always be my pastor/etc.’
That’s why I would have thought by now that Anderson people would be all over this story. Maybe they’re waiting for something more than the screenshot, idk.
I’ve never been to the church, I live maybe 18 minutes from it, maybe 15 minutes from his ‘old’ house, and maybe 12 minutes from the address listed on the screenshot.
If anyone is interested in my uneducated analysis, one comment mentioned the megachurch stragedy (or something like that) for a church that size in our town. There really isn’t that much competition as far as huge megachurches go. There’s the local university, then Clemson right up the road. Greenville is a big town but it’s 45ish minutes away. Newspring is pretty close to the interstate, so local people and I imagine Greenville people make it so big. It is on the ‘north anderson’ side of town. For non Anderson folks, that’s where the doctors and lawyers live, the ‘nicer’ of our two high schools, and the nice homes. In our town there’s a bunch of little churches, a good many good size churches, and maybe, idk, a dozen give or take that would be in the 500 member size range.
People seem to like Clayton king. He used to have a local radio show in the early 2000’s. I listened to it when I was a teenager. I was surprised at their public meeting in July that they didn’t announce him as the main guy.
My one thought (and it’s just a thought I have no NS connections): in the PN video a few days ago he mentioned the NS people he has met with. He also mentioned he’s met with six NS employees but he was leaving them anonymous. I wonder if those six anonymous people he referred to are tied to this?
It always makes me think that God is just so far away and close to us at the same time. God sees all eternity in an instant but in the most profound acts of kindness and power in the bible the smallest moments take on an eternal significants. I think that is why I love the people I work with because the “simplest” acts are the most celebrated. There is great comfort in those moments that are often lost in all the local noise. Life is the great equalizer, not death because all will be made right by God on this side of death or in eternity. Each and every tear will be wiped away, what is true grace in action is that God gives us the privilege and the responsibility to try to comfort/”wipe away” each of those tears here only for those acts of kindness to be echoed in eternity.
As angry and frustrated even white hot angry I get at God I just can’t stop believing in His goodness and quiet grace. I hope you all have a very nice morning.
GMFS
It seems evident that people latch onto favourite gurus and admire then whatever. Rich and successful? Look how rich and successful he is. Fallen and boastfully unrepentant? Look how he refuses to let the devil keep him from the pulpit. Fallen and remorseful? Look how humble and repentant he is. Once a guru, always a guru. Those who know how to attract a crowd, will always find a way: they can be charismatically commanding, or charismatically remorseful.
GMFS 2
One reason for the enduring popularity of crowd-pullers among evangelicals is the love of signs and wonders. It does seem that there’s a bit of a divide between “evangelicals” who don’t believe in healing miracles, and “charismatics” who do. I’m not claiming that this applies as a generalisation, but it’s not a bad approximation. (And it’s not a value-judgement either way, because if somebody loves their neighbour, I’m not that fussed about whether they believe in healing miracles or not.)
Thing is, if you want signs and wonders, and they are part of your appeal, you have to find a way to come up with them. Although “evangelicals” (more often than not) may not believe in healings, they do believe in miraculously transformed lives. Both “charismatics” and “evangelicals” see genuine miraculous works of God. But both “groups” contain people who are willing to counterfeit them. The “evangelical” equivalent of the fake “charismatic” healing is the fake gospel response and transformed life.
The Watchdog does it!
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2017/08/nsa-has-secretly-wiretapped.html
An Attorney wrote:
This was really funny!
@ Tony Walker:
Thanks for your local perspective, Tony. Perhaps PN doesn’t have mega in mind this time around. Dave AA upstream suggested that the new church might simply be “a Non-Profit branch of his business for accounting and tax purposes.” The location is still close enough to his old church to draw some faithful followers to help get it off the ground. Get you a bag of peanuts and watch the show start!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This is one of the reasons why trying to reason with people doesn’t work. They will just shift their arguments…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Same Yogi, different day. I am waiting for Noble to go all Sgt. Pepper’s on the evangelical world.
Lea wrote:
It’s extremely difficult to reason with cult-personality followers. They have blinders on, viewing themselves as the faithful ones and outside observers who criticize their leader as the enemy. They will defend their leader to the bitter end. Certainly, being a Perry Noble groupie is far less harmful than being a Jim Jones follower, but such behavior is still cultish.
Max wrote:
Given what was chronicled in the pajama pages, I’m not sure of that.
Max wrote:
I also think “Pornography for the Pious” JUICY Testimony is a factor.
@ brian:
Gorgeous, cloud free , deep blue sky, this morning it CT. Having coffee outside admiring the beauty of dozens of sunflowers in my garden.
Quiet and peaceful. Hope you have a quiet, peaceful and blessed morning.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes, getting a taste of sin, without actual participating in sin.
@ brian:
Brian, this was comforting to read and contemplate. Thank you.
brian wrote:
This does not surprise me.
How odd. That last comment was not a quote from brian, but from someone local to the story. Sorry.
Mae wrote:
Our sky is dulled by the smoke of many wildfires, and the cats are fighting over who gets to sit next to the window… But it is still a beautiful morning, and the birds are singing.
Pray for the smoke jumpers and other firefighters. It’s pretty bad out there, and high temps and no rain in the forecast.
Mae wrote:
And more important, staying RESPECTABLE.
“Not from any Heavenly Virtue, but from Hellish Respectability.”
— G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown mysteries
@ refugee:
Will pray for the fires to cease, and for firefighters protection.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Interesting and true. Guess you gotta start somewhere in the manufacturing department if you want to “start” a church. Funny how people think churches are started like they start a vehicle or something. Not sure anyone can start a church.
kin wrote:
Well; not unless they water down the meaning of “church”, to mean something entirely different from what the word means in scribsher.
I suspect we’re of one mind on this…
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Yeah, I succumbed and used the word I don’t care for since it’s loaded to the hilt with baggage. I don’t care for kirk either. 🙂
Jesus started it all. The beauty belongs to him. The ugliness is man’s fault.
@ kin:
Beautifully put!
Jack wrote:
I’ve been reading some pajama pages today. First I was reading some good stuff about Clayton King, the new new spring leader. Fabricated stories passed off as true in his book. Saying sheeple need to grow fangs to protect their guru er pastor. No wonder Pastor P feels betrayed by him. No wonder Clayton and friends paid Pastor P a tidy totally unknown sum of hush money to keep quiet about some things when they took over.
Then I started reading about Gary Lamb. A decade ago he was a top Pastor P Protege. Right up there with Pastor Steven. Then in 2009 after sermon series about “Naked” and “Bringing Sexy Back” maybe he forgot to pray and preyed instead upon his “personal assistant”, about whom he’d previously told his church “There aren’t many advantages to being the pastor, but there are some.” Anyway, after he resigned, Pastor P and Pastor S seem to have dropped him like a lead balloon. Years later, with a new “the love of my life” wife, Pastor Gary is back pastoring in the same town as his former megachurch. Pastor P should check out the website (actionchurch.tv). Not sure how long since Pastor G planted it, but looks like they couldn’t have more than 100 from the chairs. Not sure whether that’s bad or not but likely not a piece of cake for Pastor G to bring in a large income. To help out he has side hustles including entrepreneur consulting and BBQ/Brew festivals.
See prior comment clearing customs for quoting sermon titles. This quote from former Pastor P Protege Gary Lamb is appropriate;
“I worked less than the people I pastored. Ministry was my job yet I asked our people to serve, volunteer, etc. AFTER they have worked 50-60 hour work weeks.”
@ Dave A A:
Entitlement. Capital E.
@ Tony Walker:
The venue and the demographic are the first step in the process of establishing a following among otherwise rational and functional society:
1 – selection (those seeking community, connection)
2 – seduction (lavish)
3 – shape (reward)
4 – isolate (us versus them)
5 – control (so do this…)
– from Richard Walter, Robert Hazelwood, Maria Konnikova, etc., studies, research, publications.
It’s interesting the way Jesus faced off the devil in the wilderness, denying satan any foothold on Him and His ministry, right from the get-go: Matthew 4, Mark 1, Luke 4. No seducation, shaping, isolation, or control. Jesus was the one Guy Who was impenetrable by the methodology of a ————— (don’t know the word) who entraps into their scheme.
JYJames wrote:
And part of the feeding cry of the leech:
“I’M ENTITLED! YOU GOTTA GIMME!”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
So the blank in the comment just above, should be “leech”? where I did not have the word? – “… the methodology of a leech who entraps into their scheme”?
JYJames wrote:
Thank you! This was really helpful.
@ A.Tumbleweed:
Welcome.
Thank God for His Word, His Son, His Spirit, insight, His community, i.e., TWW. We’re learning.
dee wrote:
I think this gives some insight into P’s mindset. He “allowed” Dr. Walker to “speak into him.” I’m assuming that means he let this guy tell him things he didn’t want to hear. Does someone have a better definition? My Christianese is rusty. But it sounds as if this was unusual, and P wouldn’t normally listen to someone who is “under” him.
But now, P is going to submit to this guy, to act as if this guy is “above” him and has the right to tell him what to do, and the only way to do this is to call him “Pastor.” As if the title magically gives a person the authority to tell others what to do.
It’s the mindset that “Pastors” are above the rest of us, literally and spiritually, and as such, they have no reason to listen to those of us below them. Only other pastors can “speak into them.” That can really isolate a person from reality.
Hopefully the new church is just a tax dodge.
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
The whole ‘above’ and ‘below’, ‘over’ and ‘under’ nonsense that these clowns prattle on about is just one more clue into their sick mindset. That is, they are preoccupied with hierarchy and power-over.
What does any of this have to do with Jesus? Why would anyone submit themselves to this bull… I mean, nonsense? What is wrong with people?
roebuck wrote:
That’s a really good question. About 33,000 “owners” submitted themselves and their families the first time around. I can’t imagine why. So, even though we might imagine that Second Chance is a long shot, Pastor P has pulled this off previously. Somehow. He drew a crowd the first time. He might do it again.
Here’s the kicker. I’ve never been to this part of the world, but I found that Anderson is a small town, about 27,000, with 75,000 in the metro area. I’m sure P pulled some folks from nearby Greenville, but still, that’s a big “church” in a small town.
From Christianity Today:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/august/fired-megachurch-pastor-perry-noble-second-chance-newspring.html#storystream
roebuck wrote:
I have lost count of the number of iterations of “authority” I’ve heard during the latest sermon series on what makes a church, a congregation (to culminate in the signing of a new membership covenant because two 9Marks churches are merging here).
I have told my near and dear how uncomfortable this all makes me, and they keep trying to tell me “maybe it won’t be so bad.” Unfortunately, I think it might be just as bad as I’m fearing.
The church, to this point, has not been very 9Markish even though they quote Dever and Leaman and Matt from TVC a lot (among others). The elders show a marked ability to listen to feedback and humility and, as far as I’ve seen, not a whole lot of authoritativeness. A person going to that church would have a hard time thinking ill of 9Marks teachings (unless they’d read the horror stories here and elsewhere). There’s a lot of love and care (not the kind of care in the TVC story but real, honest, bearing one another’s burdens) in the church. At this point, at least.
When and how do elders transform from caring, empathetic “servants” (or come-alongsiders) to control freaks?
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:
That phrase PN uses caught my attention, too ……. and not in a good way……….. like PN is a Hoy Roman Emperor, and then some!!!
refugee wrote:
@ JYJames:
In the 5 steps researched and documented by the behavioralists [correction Roy Hazelwood not Robert] mentioned above, it would be after lavish (#2) and leading up to control (#5). So somewhere in steps #3 (shape with rewards) and #4 (isolate with us vs. them).
The key is to be able to walk away with agency (self intact) at any time, so:
1 – instead of selection, mutual attraction
2 – instead of seduction, reciprocity or share
3 – instead of shape, collaborate
4 – instead of isolate, inclusivity
5 – instead of control, teamwork.
What is the fine print in the document/covenant/pledge about walking away at any time, with integrity?
Noble, Furtick, Dever, the SBC good ole boyz network, etc always make me think of this song:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wsEwK69LXjQ
refugee wrote:
When you start asking pesky questions such as “where does the bible teach sola scriptura” or start denying “essential” doctrines such as young-earth creationism, 5-point Calvinism, penal substitutionary atonement, etc.
roebuck wrote:
I don’t get it either. There must be some pull, emotional trigger, naivety, which allows people to be willingly bossed around. Like it is some sort of Christian virtue, to be so obedient to elders/pastor.
Deb wrote:
“… Perry currently does not meet the biblical qualifications of a pastor, teacher, shepherd.” (NewSpring leadership)
When a pastor subjects himself to a leadership team, he needs to listen to them. Noble’s refusal to heed NewSpring correction and counsel sends a clear message to future leaders at his new church that he will ignore them, too. Authoritarians are accountable to no one.
@ Max:
“Pastor Perry Noble’s former megachurch isn’t ready to give him a second chance. So he’s giving himself one.” – Christianity Today article of Deb’s link.
The opening two sentences of the article are telling.
Max wrote:
” … in my time at NewSpring I learned principles that will help anyone in any industry clarify their vision, unify your team and absolutely maximize your business potential …” (Perry Noble, https://iwantmybusinesstogrow.com/why)
But he failed to learn how to listen to his team.
roebuck wrote:
kin wrote:
The million $$$ question.
kin wrote:
Jesus said “I will build my Church.”
There are a lot of churches in America started by men, but not built by Jesus. There’s a vast difference.
Max wrote:
Max,
As usual, you nailed it.
Thank you and bless you for insights that you share here!
roebuck wrote:
Strange days in the American church. It seems that a “Christianity” without Christ has taken over in far too many places. The Main thing is no longer the main thing as we promote men and their teachings. In some corners of the church, Christ is little more than a beloved symbol. What happened to Jesus?!!
@ roebuck:
Jesus said He would build His church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. Look around us, Hell is prevailing against the churches men have built. Ministers and ministries are failing every day. Before you know it, Perry Noble will start a new church! (oh wait a minute, I forgot)
Max wrote:
Matthew 7, Luke 6, built on sand instead of rock, what Jesus said.
refugee wrote:
When they decide that being about disciples of Mark Dever is more important than being disciples of Jesus Christ. There will come a point when that will be tested. More than likely there will be several points where that will be tested. We know how that worked out for The Village ELDERS who clearly showed that they were disciples of Mark Dever and the 9Marks System when they abused Karen Hinckley the way they did. Let’s not forget Mark Dever’s compromise of 9Marks principles regarding C.J. Mahaney. I think that 9Marks is essentially Authoritarianism that is centered on Mark Dever , and that can only be masked for an extremely limited period of time. It is what it is.
Breaking news, off topic, but relevant to TWW in general – a terrible abuse situation at a private Christian school in Tennessee (graphic textual descriptions within the link):
https://amp.tennessean.com/amp/552578001
refugee wrote:
When they misplace their passion, when they take their eyes off of Jesus and put a man or a system on the throne. Any leader who controls, manipulates and intimidates the Body of Christ through aberrant belief and practice does not love God and others. If they do not love Jesus, they will not love you.
Josh wrote:
From the link:
“Brentwood Academy Headmaster Curtis G. Masters is accused of telling the 12-year-old boy to “turn the other cheek” and “everything in God’s kingdom happens for a reason.”
Chilling.
Max wrote:
That’s because his team was never supposed to disagree with him. By design.
Burwell wrote:
The SBC is currently planting hundreds of new churches per year. In my neck of the woods, most of them have lead pastors fresh out of seminary in their 20s-30s. They are primarily reformed in belief and practice and hand-pick “elders” also in their 20s-30s. When preacher-boys and his yes-boys run the church, anything can happen. If a team member dissents, he can be easily replaced … if the pastor can pick ’em, he can kick ’em.
Gram3 wrote:
I think it’s also when they lose the focus on the individuals and focus instead on the systems and rules, because somewhere in that they lose all compassion.
Josh wrote:
Horrible nightmare for that child….absolutely disgusting ( and criminal ) that the administration did not call authorities to report rampant sexual abuse.
@ Max:
Our new SBC plant pastor was 24 when he came here….same with pastor of music.
Can you imagine sitting under their teaching???
Even when I was young I wanted teachers, elders, pastors, to be a bit older then me…..say like in their 30’s.
I’ve met this pastor, very aggressive in involving himself into town issues as well.
One could admire perhaps, his enthusiasm or one could observe his hubris is notable.
Mae wrote:
Calvinjugend.
Or Chairman Calvin’s Red Guard.
Young True Believers, starry-eyed on fire for The Cause.
Josh wrote:
The description of the actual rape (in the boys’ locker room) sounds like a prison rape.
They “made a woman out of him” in an ANIMAL forced-dominance display.
Max wrote:
But sadly familiar.
“So What Else Is New?” familiar.
Now to see if Brentwood Academy has the Power of the Keys over the local court system.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Exactly. It’s not in anyway Paul commissioning young Timothy.
These young men just got a self proclaimed call, to be in the, “ministry”.
Mae wrote:
The traditional model of doing church in the SBC was more Biblical in pattern. Not too many years ago, young men fresh out of seminary would serve in an associate capacity for a few years under an older, seasoned senior pastor. Now, these young whippernsappers are released on the church as “lead” pastors with no experience. It could work depending on the spiritual maturity of the man, but my experience has been that these guys are preacher boys, not men of God.
Mae wrote:
If he came in open and willing to learn, it might be interesting. If he came in like a teenager who knows everything, not so much.
I’m guessing it might be the later.
With respect to Perry Noble, and a second time around… Pretty hard to top having your worship band doing an authentic rendition of “Highway to Hell” on Easter Sunday (sarcasim here)
Lea wrote:
He came into decadent, spiritually dead New England because only SBCs plants could hope to deliver salvation to the lost.
Five years later about 97% of their 80 member church, were members of other local churches.
Mae wrote:
That leaves only 2-3 left, of which I assume one was the young cocky SBC pastor.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
How about proclaiming a Seven Day Sex Challenge (from a bed where the pulpit would be) on the same Sunday liturgical churches celebrate the Feast of Christ the King?
Mae wrote:
Not a great plan!
BTW, I was reading a twitter exchange with some Noble fan who was a bit bonkers.
@ Lea:
How arrogant or hopelessly naive, to believe, New England would be into another revival, if more SBC churches were planted.
Lot of promotion to their church being biblical, a lot of how to’s, on this and that, but not much Jesus.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ed Young did something like that several years ago:
https://www.dallasnews.com/life/life/2012/01/16/dallas-area-pastor-puts-bed-on-top-of-church-encourages-sex-for-7-days
I forget exactly what Scripture that was …
Max wrote:
I doubt it. He’s quite correct to admit that NewSpring was set up purely as a profit-making business, but the business model is uniquely dependent on attracting customers who love being treated like dirt. In the world of value-adding business, it’s harder to demand that your customers give you free money, or to tell them that if they won’t, they should clear off and give their seat to someone who will.
@ Max:
The gimmicks just do not end….. is this what my Christianity is based on/the result of?
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
This has nothing to do with Christianity. Religious entertainment, but not Christianity. Religious amusements that crowd out the serious things of God.
Max wrote:
Ecclesiastes 9:10: “Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might…”
@ Max:
” … in my time at NewSpring I learned principles that will help anyone in any industry clarify their vision, unify your team and absolutely maximize your business potential …” (Perry Noble, https://iwantmybusinesstogrow.com/why)
But he failed to learn how to listen to his team.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
and how to use pronouns.
@ Max:
@ Max:
I was trying to make a generic post, I didn’t mean for it to be directed at you. It was my first post here. Just trying to give people an idea of our neck of the woods. Since I commented, the local news paper did an article, and yesterday WYFF4 (the local news channel that is based in Greenville) did an article on it. This morning it had about 1,000 comments. So the news is spreading. As far as I know, he hasn’t responded to any questions from the media.
@ Max:
When I was in college 30 plus years ago, campus ministries use to us gimmicks to get students tp their meetings/events… it use to bug me then, and now it has devolved to “Highway to Hell” on Easter Sunday….
sigh….
Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:
The larger a ministry becomes, the more gimmicks it has to come up with to keep the pew’s attention. The survival of a mega-church pastor depends on how gimmick-savvy he is. In my younger days, folks went to church to hear the word of God proclaimed; now they have to be entertained.
With the threat of nuclear war once again looming over America, it’s a strange thing that so many professed followers of Christ are gyrating to the beat of loud drums and whining guitars and attending macho-man seminars … rather than humbling themselves, repenting, praying, and seeking God’s face for the days ahead.
___
ProtoConfusing Scriptural Presentation: “He Is Not One Of Us, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
“Who ever welcomes one of these little children in My name welcomes Me, and whoever welcomes Me welcomes not only Me, but the One who sent Me.” John said to Him,“Teacher, we saw someone else driving out demons in Your name,and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” But Jesus replied, “Do not stop him. No one who performs a miracle in My name can turn around and speak evil of Me. -Jesus (Mark 9:37-39)
All things considered, ‘apparently’ only a several select few individuals of the New Spring locations really have expressed a particular desire, i.e. want(ed) said pastor re-instated.
huh?
Now they will get their second chance?
What?
hmmm…
could b.
Q. It is ‘illegal’ for this said ‘repentant’ permissibly past ostracized professionally credentialed religious pastoral individual — “to ( ed. currently) preach the gospel to the poor, to proclaim release to the captives, to set free those who are downtrodden” (Luke 4:18) in a professional 501(c)3 religious setting?
SKreeeeeeeeeeetch!
Q. Will he be pi**ing out of the proverbial ‘revival’ tent, or pi**ing in?
(snicker)
*
hum, hum, hum…now I know a lit’l secret, there is nothing that I lack–If I give my love to you,Jesus, You will surely give it back! Please, Jesus, let your love rating down on me!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_OJeR4544XY
Let it rain, rain, rain…
*
Prayer: Let the Lord Jesus be praised!, Brother Perry, take your ‘second chance’ !
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K8CMNyIwlfg
Make it the third deck in right field… a grand slam…
(grin)
hahahahahahahaha!
Q. How can anyone call on Jesus if they have never believed in Him? How can they believe in Jesus if they have not heard of Him? How can they hear without someone sharing with them the Lord Jesus and His marvelous salvation. And how can they share this good news unless they are permitted to go? As it is clearly written in the pages of the holy scriptures: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”…
Holy Spirit, Bring It!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vvWPf5U8lwg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WiKvo_9feC4
ATB
Sòpy
😉
—
@ Max:
The real “stinker” is that they use yo tell us that the best thing you could with your life is to “go on staff with them to win souls for Christ”. Humm…
Tony Walker wrote:
With all the local press continuing to flag Noble’s ministry failures and his rejection of NewSpring leadership offers to help him over the past year, I would think he would have trouble attracting church members. But his cult of personality followers will be there to cheer him on, I’m sure. The American church gets stranger by the day.
@ Max:I wonder how comfortable Jesus would be in a
Mega church. He’d probably ask he people to follow him outside and
teach from the Bible and use parables. I think he would even go
Without drums and colorful back-lighting. How many Mega-churches would
tolerate a simple, genuine, and pure Jesus?
__
The Revolving Sin Watch: “Every Step You take?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOGaugKpzsy
hmmm…
To those who know of the ‘whiles’ Satan takes, it is quite easy to turn an individual who’s life’s foundation is no longer secured upon the word of God.
huh?
In these precarious cases an individual might wanna cast all their anxiety on Jesus, because He cares! Folks, might wanna also be sober-minded and alert; as Satan has been seen to prowl ‘amiably’ about like a very hungry lion, seeking an individual to chew up! Chomp! Chomp! Ernest folks are able to resist him by standing firm upon their faith in Jesus (John 3:16) and in the knowledge that their fellow Christ believers throughout the world are also undergoing missive ‘self-inflected’ suffering as well…Yet forgiven by Christ’s act long ago outside Jerusalem upon that fateful tree.
What?
SKreeeeeeeetch!
There is hope?
Yep.
Seek it, Secure it, today!
(See your bible for details…)
hum, hum, hum…Thyz loving kindness is bedder dan life…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bGSvZRDw67k
In a melody to the Almighty, David sang: “During the night watches I meditate on you.” He declared: “I rise before dawn and cry for help; I wait for Your words. My eyes anticipate the night watches, That I may meditate on Your word.Hear my voice according to Your lovingkindness; Revive me, O LORD, according to Your ordinances…” (Ps. 119:148-149
תהילה
ATB
Sòpy
😉
—