I’m having trouble sleeping – it’s 2am in England !!

In regards to #5, one of the local Lutheran churches fell apart when its denomination embraced same-sex marriage. A large portion of the congregation left and went elsewhere. I suspect that has and will repeat itself multiple times in the coming years.

Also, there is such a thing as “power groups” in churches, particularly in smaller rural ones. I think the closeness of a community inside and outside the church plays a big part of this. A pastor may or may not be a part of that group, though in my experience usually isn’t. More often than not I’ve seen that whoever comprises them, they are personality, not doctrinally motivated.

“Declines in membership can occur when the pastor has an agenda that is not supported by many in the church, knows it and proceeds with it anyway.” (Dee)

This could very well be the #1 reason for church membership decline within SBC right now! Young, restless & reformed pastors are taking over and splitting traditional SBC churches all across America. There is a good reason why Rainer didn’t include this in his list … he is in Al Mohler’s pocket and would never cast a negative spin on the New Calvinist movement.

I am guessing my former church was one of those 4 churches. 🙁 It still hurts my heart that not one person saw the deception in the whole search process. I was there. I remember. Nobody had any idea.

Pastors and elders definitely can be part of a “power group” and often are in Baptist circles. Anyone who says otherwise is probably selling a book with a Lifeway logo on it.

Jack wrote:

How about relevancy? When the focus becomes biblical literalism (read young earth creationism, focus on secular issues like gay marriage or general intolerance toward anyone who isn’t them) and then they wonder why their numbers aren’t growing. Most of us don’t want to hate our neighbours, coworkers and non-christian (at least by their definition) family members.

It’s a good question. I think it’s true to some extent. Though I’ve seen SBC churches present a more politically correct face to the public and then you find out they believe something very different. I’m also sad to say that many people who call themselves Christians are often more worried about fixing everyone’s morals than loving them. Please don’t believe all Christians are like that. It’s not true. It’s just that those are often the loudest ones while the ones who are practicing love are quietly doing so.

True story:

I went to a big church with a well-known pastor for 7 years before I moved here. It claimed to be more egalitarian, but like many large churches, they had staff to do almost everything. So I became a greeter on Sunday mornings because that’s pretty much the only thing they would let me do as a single woman with a day job besides miss the service to work in the nursery.

Once, someone asked me how blessed I was to go to church under this famous pastor and hear him preach every week. That was the biggest blessing of that church, right? I thought about it, and finally had to say, no, it wasn’t.

There was an elderly gentleman who was also a greeter. Not only had he been a greeter since the church opened, but he had been a greeter at the church that planted this church for something like 15 years before that. He said his favorite thing about church was seeing everyone come in smiling every week. He remembered everyone’s names even though it was a big church. Everybody would hug him going into the service.

Those are the people that show true faith. Those are the people making a difference. He didn’t get paid to be a greeter. He had to come early every week and stand for an hour as people came in. He was the biggest blessing of that church. Not the famous pastor with the TV ministry.

ishy wrote:

True story:
I went to a big church with a well-known pastor for 7 years before I moved here. It claimed to be more egalitarian, but like many large churches, they had staff to do almost everything. So I became a greeter on Sunday mornings because that’s pretty much the only thing they would let me do as a single woman with a day job besides miss the service to work in the nursery.
Once, someone asked me how blessed I was to go to church under this famous pastor and hear him preach every week. That was the biggest blessing of that church, right? I thought about it, and finally had to say, no, it wasn’t.
There was an elderly gentleman who was also a greeter. Not only had he been a greeter since the church opened, but he had been a greeter at the church that planted this church for something like 15 years before that. He said his favorite thing about church was seeing everyone come in smiling every week. He remembered everyone’s names even though it was a big church. Everybody would hug him going into the service.
Those are the people that show true faith. Those are the people making a difference. He didn’t get paid to be a greeter. He had to come early every week and stand for an hour as people came in. He was the biggest blessing of that church. Not the famous pastor with the TV ministry.

It sounds to me like the actual pastor in your story, at least per biblical standards, was the kindly greeter, and probably not the one who stood under the spotlight and strutted about with the title “pastor”.

Joe Reed wrote:

In regards to #5, one of the local Lutheran churches fell apart when its denomination embraced same-sex marriage. A large portion of the congregation left and went elsewhere. I suspect that has and will repeat itself multiple times in the coming years.

I wonder how happy they’ll be elsewhere when they discover that the pastor behaves like a tribal chieftain and wants to micro-manage way more than one’s individual beliefs on human sexuality.

Law Prof wrote:

The main reason I’ve experienced for declines in attendance is abuse from church leaders who take advice from people like Thom Rainer.

Great point! Reckon Thom would add this to the list (as written) if we sent it to him?

Lydia wrote:

Not credible, IMO.

Yep, never listen to a man who can’t even spell Tom right.

There will always be power struggles as long as there are people alive. But just once I’d like to see a Calvinista write passionately about how pastors can be just as guilty of seeking power as anybody else.

Dee – I have written a few posts on Tom (Sorry, I meant “Thom”) Rainer over the years.

Thom Rainer Shows How Not to Answer Questions from Critics

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/06/thom-rainer-shows-how-not-to-answer.html

Crybaby Pastors Part 1: Thom Rainer Issues Call to Church Members to Deal With Critics

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/02/crybaby-pastors-part-1-thom-rainer.html

Crybaby Pastors Part 2: Drying the Eyes With An Alternative Message to Pastors About Criticism

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/03/crybaby-pastors-part-2-drying-eyes-with.html

Scam Alert: Thom Rainer Offers to “Mentor” Your Pastor – For $249.97 a Month

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2016/01/scam-alert-thom-rainer-offers-to-mentor.html

SBC Mega Church Compensation for Sr. Pastors – As Malachi Said in Mal 3:10, the Pastors are Robbing God, Not the Pew Sitters

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2015/10/sbc-mega-church-compensation-for-sr.html

Several years ago my church hired a younger senior pastor with sublime preaching skills, but 0 people skills. People started going to other churches (we have three excellent, 500+ attendance churches within 10 square miles, all connected by freeways in a large urban areas) because he just couldn’t relate. He then forced through the dismissals of two staff members, per his own reasons, who were quite relational. That was the death knell, and he resigned within a year. Thankfully, my church did better with the second choice and some people are returning. I almost left, but I have of “sweat equity” invested in our smaller Hispanic congregation and channeled all my efforts there. Thankfully, the leadership board did better with the current pastor, who is a good preacher/teacher and highly people-skilled. So, it’s not just power groups. Sometimes pastors just aren’t cut out for the task they feel “called” to.

George Whitefield received a good bit of criticism of his ministry during his lifetime. His tombstone reads, “Here lies G.W. What sort of man he was the great day will discover.”

This assessment of a ministry is the one that counts.

deeI would contend that Rainer is (deliberately?) overlooking the biggest power group of all-the pastor and his friends.

I’ve checked out some of Rainer’s stuff before, went over to his site and read over it a couple years back. This is his absolute mantra: Pastors are the courageous, the strength of the church, the heroes–but at the same time, these great, strong men also need coddling, comfort, and constant praise.

Sorry, Dee, I posted a previous post with some links to my blog on Thom Rainer pieces, but this is the one I think that is most pertinent to this current Thom Rainer piece you are discussing:

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/02/crybaby-pastors-part-1-thom-rainer.html

It shows the heart of Rainer, how he views critics of the pastor as the great hindrance to pastors. If you read my post, you will see how he has things 180 degrees backwards.

In my blog post above, there is a link to Rainer’s 2011 article on critics, but the link doesn’t work. Here is the current link to the piece I critiqued:

“The Great Distraction to the Great Commission” – Thom Rainer

http://thomrainer.com/2011/01/the_great_distraction_to_the_great_commission/

Just met two new folks at our church today at our mid-week bible study. How about this reason for church attendence decline? They left their church right down the street from us because they had enough. A new teaching series from Ephesians about the “proper” roles for women drove them out. Our church has women pastors, majority women board and teaches an egalitarian view of marriage.
Their college senior daughter sees a reason to come to a church that values women as a full and equal partner in God’s Kingdom. Good luck with that one Thom Rainer!

@ Loren Haas:

This one is not going away. It’s not just “feelings” about inequality of women or the dubious concept of “roles” but their entire scholarship presented to undergird Patriarchy, is faulty. And these says anyone with the will can do some serious research and find the massive holes in that doctrine.

It’s just not going away.

“The Voices Research Group” just released the results of their own study into declining church attendance. According to “The Voices”, people point to the following factors outside the local church.

1. Colin Hansen looks like Chris Farley. When his books are recommended by church leaders, congregants associate the name Colin with coolness like Colin Farrel. When they see the real Colin, they associate him with living in a van down by the river.
2. The quizzical look on the face of Trevin Wax. Once again, it’s a confidence issue.
3. Forty years old Kevin DeYoungs tweets make it clear that people can’t be trusted with their own spiritual walk.
4. Al Mohler’s tie. It’s the confidence thing again.
5. Mark Dever’s seems to be hiding something from himself.
6. Francis Chan epiphanies. How could he have led so confidently before the epiphany.
7. Piper’s Piperisms.
8. Driscoll.
9. Chandler and Platt look like seniors at BYU.
10. Discernment.

“The Voices” is staffed by my imaginary friends who sometimes share important information with me.

In my experience of over 50 years being adult enough to follow the happenings in churches of which I was a part or attended for a few months or more: An organizational structure that makes congregationally elected church leadership is a key to a lasting church, coupled with a pastor who realizes that he is not the only person with a relationship with the Savior and a calling to serve the congregation. A church my family helped to start had a long term membership. People who were there when I was a teenager are still there or their children are. Pastors come and go. A strong lay leadership, seeking to serve God through their church is a key to long life, with the exceptions being FBC of Wherever if Wherever does not have a seriously shrinking population.

___

Consequential Quagmire: “Religious Might Makes Doctrinal Right?”

hmmm…

With a ‘Calvinism makes right pastoral attitude’ , and a miss-informed, un-knowledgeable congregation, –an environment of ‘systematic theological railroading’ ™ will continue.

—

Lydia wrote:

The commercial profitable Jesus.

Unfortunately church is just another business venture for so many of these guys.

On another note, I am no scholar, but was wondering if someone who is could comment on what the perception is of someone who holds a Masters and Doctorate from Southern. Does it hold much weight with those who are outside of the SBTS faithful? It seems like those pursuing a Doctorate might wish to broaden their education a bit.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

was wondering if someone who is could comment on what the perception is of someone who holds a Masters and Doctorate from Southern. Does it hold much weight with those who are outside of the SBTS faithful? It seems like those pursuing a Doctorate might wish to broaden their education a bit.

No, definitely not. And SBTS has become much less reputable outside SBC circles since many of their grads have adopted ESS.

Having both says “Mohler indoctrinated” which only is a shoo-in for SBC jobs. Being that one of their classes is how to “revitalize churches”, I doubt that would fly over well anywhere else.

Law Prof wrote:

I’ve checked out some of Rainer’s stuff before, went over to his site and read over it a couple years back. This is his absolute mantra: Pastors are the courageous, the strength of the church, the heroes–but at the same time, these great, strong men also need coddling, comfort, and constant praise.

Boy this is true. I have observed how often pastors, especially the mega-church pastors, seem to make themselves out to be victims, martyrs and warriors of the faith. Criticism is so very difficult for them to endure.

Check out this gem from a 2014 Rainer article entitled “Five Reasons Your Pastor Should Take a Sabbatical”:

“Pastors who have sabbaticals view the time off as an affirmation from their churches. I have heard from many pastors who share with me a sentence similar to this one: ‘I know my church loves me because they give me a sabbatical.” Pastors need affirmation. Sabbaticals can accomplish that goal.'”

Get a load of that, “pastors need affirmation”. Why not “doctors need affirmation”, or “engineers need affirmation”, or “electricians need affirmation”. And do feel affirmed, we should give them a month or two off from time to time.

@ Tom R:

The sabbatical necessity really annoys me too. Gee whiz, who doesn’t need a rest from work? Except we peons call it a, vacation.
As for the affirmation plea. Again who doesn’t need affirmation from time to time. Generally speaking in the real world, one gets that in their, annual review from their team leader, or boss.
A friend of ours SBC ( reformed ) pastor recently went on a five week sabbatical. It was sickening to read on his FB page, all the sheeple extolling how much he and wife deserved the time off. I wanted to ask the flock how many of them got 5 weeks off with pay?

Another reason people are leaving the church is because pastors no longer preach from the Bible. They preach from Piper books and whoever else is the latest and greatest published pastor that has a big following. I have been there…I was under Dennis Darville from First Baptist Rocky Mount. We were lulled to sleep while he preached from everything BUT the Bible.
I should of stood up and shouted when I looked around every Sunday and Bibles were closed. People still brought them to church, but they were closed tight on our laps. Why were they closed you ask? Because we allowed this man to stand in the pulpit and preach out of everything but what truly matters, The Bible.

Definitely #5 is why we left.( were given the left boot of fellowship)
I remember the new pastor citing “carnality” in the flock. When we asked him what carnality there was, he claimed it was the flock being less then biblical in it’s worship. What he really meant was he was changing church constitution so women could not be deacons,and could not be on any boards, position of leadership, etc..Apparently, that was his definition of , carnality.
Of course the other changes were specifically the reformed dogma. ESV bible, Tulip, Piper books and so on.
Our church didn’t, change. The new pastor and his followers were forcing changes on the Congregation. Either you agreed, or you were told it might be best if you left.
Thankfully, we gave our written grievances to the elders, and left. It was a very hard , heartbreaking decision. We had been members for,twenty seven years. Lot of memories there. But, after a while of mourning,the Lord led us to another church, where we are happily in fellowship with other believers.

To clarify, LifeWay does not receive any tithe or offering money from SBC churches. Rainer’s salary comes entirely from LifeWay not from offerings sent to the Cooperative Program. Additionally, LifeWay is the single largest contributor to the Cooperative Program. LifeWay tithes back to support SBC missions. @ Lydia:

@ Watchman on the Wall:

Good observation. It’s preaching the merits of Calvin this, Piper that. You are right, the bible comes in as a distant companion.

Muff Potter wrote:

I wonder how happy they’ll be elsewhere when they discover that the pastor behaves like a tribal chieftain and wants to micro-manage way more than one’s individual beliefs on human sexuality.

At least one of the families I know is very happy in their new church family, with a widely respected, kind, and much loved pastor of 35 years who holds to the long-standing interpretation of scripture on these matters.

I don’t think your either/or paradigm is necessarily accurate

Mae wrote:

It’s preaching the merits of Calvin this, Piper that. You are right, the bible comes in as a distant companion.

Especially considering how much they brag about being “more biblical” than everybody else.

Most organizations are over-managed and under-led. Poor pastoral leadership is more common than most would admit. Seminary training needs more emphasis on leadership so that pastors are better equipped in this area.

Law Prof wrote:

The main reason I’ve experienced for declines in attendance is abuse from church leaders who take advice from people like Thom Rainer.

Touche! 🙂

Root 66 wrote:

Another trend I am seeing, at least in our area, is that larger churches seem to be setting out to gobble up smaller churches in order to establish “satellite” churches.

They call that “replanting” in SBC ranks. Taking over struggling traditional churches, they will send in young reformers with the “true gospel” to get them back on their feet. New Calvinism has various tentacles as it reaches into SBC life.

Max wrote:

They call that “replanting” in SBC ranks. Taking over struggling traditional churches, they will send in young reformers with the “true gospel” to get them back on their feet. New Calvinism has various tentacles as it reaches into SBC life.

Yes, our church has been attacked from the inside (by a reckless YRR pastor, who wanted to give the church away) and outside (large churches wanting to “partner” with us.)
Whatever happened to the SBC hallmarks of church autonomy and the priesthood of all believers?!?
These are troubling times, but Jesus said in John 16:33, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”

All of the churches I’ve attended have a big divide and conquer approach to members. They established cliques/special groups and made big shows of those who were members (y’know, the ones that have all kinds of paperwork and training to prove it!) in comparison to those who were not.

And always, everyone was afraid to question the pastors, the pastors’ wives, the pastors’ children/relatives, the elders, the elders’ wives/husbands, the elders’ children and so on and so forth.

Seriously, I think “power groups” are okay by me. It prevents division (which, come to think of it, is what Satan feeds off of).

@ Root 66:
Borg initiative for sure.
Our former church ( taken over ) 150+ year old church, had no mortgage, had good upkeep/ maintenance, a good rainy day account, and a substantial memorial gift.
It still pains me the new crew got all those, hard worked for thru generations of, assets. They earned nothing but took everything.
Hang in there with your,” malevolent “, parishioners!!

scott hendrixson wrote:

1989 the number another summer (get down)
Sound of the funky drummer
Music hittin’ your heart cause I know you got soul
(Brothers and sisters, hey)
Listen if you’re missin’ y’all
Swingin’ while I’m singin’
Givin’ whatcha gettin’
Knowin’ what I know
While the Black bands sweatin’
And the rhythm rhymes rollin’
Got to give us what we want
Gotta give us what we need
Our freedom of speech is freedom or death
We got to fight the powers that be
Lemme hear you say
Fight the power
Lemme hear you say
Fight the power
Lemme hear you say
Fight the power
Lemme hear you say
Fight the power
Lemme hear you say
Fight the power
Lemme hear you say
Fight the power
We’ve got to fight the powers that be

Sorry, I inadvertently posted too much.

Mae wrote:

@ Root 66:
Borg initiative for sure.
Our former church ( taken over ) 150+ year old church, had no mortgage, had good upkeep/ maintenance, a good rainy day account, and a substantial memorial gift.
It still pains me the new crew got all those, hard worked for thru generations of, assets. They earned nothing but took everything.
Hang in there with your,” malevolent “, parishioners!!

One church that wanted to “partner” with us seemed upset and disappointed when our treasurer told them “We’re in fine shape” financially. They left with their tails tucked after that. They were hoping that we were struggling so that they could come in and “save” us. I think this trend is gaining ground because it’s much easier to take over a small church with an older congregation than it is to start your own new church work. As I have discovered through this journey, most of these Millennials are too lazy to bother with that!
Thanks for the encouragement. We are hanging in there…most of our congregation now “get it” and understand that these other churches are playing for keeps. They don’t really want to “help” us. They’re just licking their chops over the church’s assets and solvency!

ishy wrote:

Though I’ve seen SBC churches present a more politically correct face to the public and then you find out they believe something very different.

I think politics is a huge issue, liberal or conservative. Churches in general should stop trying to shove their politics down people’s throats.

Tom R wrote:

Platt’s quivering voice and pseudo-crying

Jimmy Swaggart cried without tears, too, and had a tremendous following for years. Gimmicks work.

Platt’s persona and New Calvinist icon status captured him a key SBC position, President of the International Mission Board (IMB). He promptly recalled 1,000 foreign missionaries (predominantly non-Calvinist), citing a funding shortage. If/when those missionaries are replaced, I wonder what theological flavor they will be? At the same time that IMB had a funding shortage, the North American Mission Board spent $60 million annually to plant 1,000 new churches … guess what theological leaning most of those young church planters are? If mainline Southern Baptists don’t see this, they are blind indeed.

dee wrote:

If that church continues in that vein, it will die.

My son-in-law was naive when he entered the ministry. He thought all church folks loved God and each other, were of one mind and Spirit in Christ, and that the only agenda they had was the Great Commission. He knows better now.

@ dee:
Snowflakes. Let’s send them coloring books. They really need some time in the real world of work.

ishy wrote:

Please don’t believe all Christians are like that. It’s not true. It’s just that those are often the loudest ones while the ones who are practicing love are quietly doing so.

I know all Christians aren’t like this (present company included!). I have Christian friends (and people very close to me – my wife) who are devout Christians.

I daresay that it’s a silent majority. I would be surprised if anyone in this forum would advocate killing for so-called “moral” crimes or having our armed forces wipe out enemies to the last man, woman, child, camel, cow and donkey – and then enslave any survivors – to obtain their “God Given” land.

But in essence this is exactly what those of us in the secular world are hearing!

I don’t visit SBC Today but did swing by to see what it was about – it’s been talked about here and elsewhere. The article that came up was one in which the old “homosexuality agenda” argument was espoused. And one of the first response comments was the “put to death” quotes from the OT.

We live in a pluralistic society and as I mentioned earlier, this crud just doesn’t fly anymore. I don’t believe my Hindu co-worker who brought lunch for us all last week and his family are going to heck. I won’t hate them. And those “loudest voices” seem to be in control of the Christian infrastructure.

It’s not just Baptists – I used to attend a Pentecostal church. Same message, just more hand waving. The RC church? They are more measured but same message. Even mainline protestant friends that I have discussed this issue with cannot refute the bible. It’s the elephant in the room for all the good and bad that Christians do.

With this push toward a more authoritarian church – like patriarchal Calvinism, complementarianism and similar doctrines you will moderates leave, not the church but the faith as well.

I know that our society isn’t perfect. I know that political correctness can run amok. But I would take our liberal democracy any day over any religious theocracy.

Max wrote:

On a related note, my son-in-law (a bi-vocational SBC pastor) recently experienced Reason #6 up close and personal: “A power group continues to wreak havoc in a church.”

At least he’s bi-vocational.
He has a fallback position; it isn’t a choice of Take it or Leave It, the pulpit or the cardboard box and the dumpster.

dee wrote:

Sorry about the late approval of comments. My mother is sick, my stepfather’s nurse arrived and needed me, and my husband has a serious cellulitis of his forearm-?MRSA. My morning has been hectic.
However, all is well.

You have a lot on your plate. Prayers for you and your family.

dee wrote:

@ Tom R:
I love this quote from one of the links.
“Rainer says criticism leaves pastors with “little energy to do anything else” when they have to suffer through criticism…”

My Widdle Snowflake,
My Speshul Snowflake…

Law Prof wrote:

This is his absolute mantra: Pastors are the courageous, the strength of the church, the heroes–but at the same time, these great, strong men also need coddling, comfort, and constant praise.

My Widdle Snowflake,
My Speshul Snowflake…

But what happens when Speshul Widdle Snowfwake hears the word “No”?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YersIyzsOpc

@ Max:
The great commission is dead for the institutions. You know, this probably sounds dumb but I often ask myself how many people are there in the US who have never heard of Jesus? I bet it is few. yet, our religious institutions act like it’s most people while they compete for tithing sheep.

I think It’s beyond that now. The question, in my mind, is more about WHO is Jesus and what that means.

Jack wrote:

Even mainline protestant friends that I have discussed this issue with cannot refute the bible. It’s the elephant in the room for all the good and bad that Christians do.

A big problem involves translations and culture. A lot of churches don’t acknowledge that translations are often biased and concepts like marriage, homosexuality, and even church as we think of them now did not exist when the Bible was written. Marriage was often political or financial, not based on love or romance. Your wants, desires, or sexual orientation were irrelevant.

Slavery and prostitution colors the words translated to homosexuality because often people would visit pagan temples to have sex with slaves of either gender who had no choice. Some of those slaves were children. Violence was common. STDs were rampant. Most would already be married and they’d pass those STDs to their spouses. Prostitution was and is truly heinous, particularly child prostitution. Whatever someone’s belief about gay marriage, the culture the Bible was talking about was something very different. A lot of this stuff I learned in Latin and classics classes before I ever studied koine Greek.

Bible translations sum up these giant concepts in single words to which we give modern connotations but never question how those words and connotations might be different.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Following and Marvelling and Worshipping, saying “Who is like unto The Pastor? Who can stand against Him?”

Excuse me? Just what Bible have those people been reading? (Last time I checked, that was NOT in there! But hey, what do I know, I’m a woman. I could be leading you all astray right now…)

Root 66 wrote:

I think Mr. Rainer is failing to see the 500 pound gorilla in the room:
Churches are declining because pastors are taught in seminaries to lie to search committees in order to “reform” that church, the 9Marx way!

The Party (with its Perfect Ideology) Can Do No Wrong.
Ees Party Line, Comrades.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

At least he’s bi-vocational.

His “seasoned” father-in-law advised him to consider that route for a while. I’ve known too many Southern Baptist pastors who “resigned” without another income stream. A lot of SBC churches – particularly in rural areas – aren’t going to get any better until the old deacons die! I hate to be blunt, but SBC deacon bodies in traditional churches exercise too much authority … when they have, in a word, NO authority Biblically. I’m certainly not a fan of the YRR movement in SBC ranks, but I can see why the young folks want to do church differently than their parents.

Lydia wrote:

The question, in my mind, is more about WHO is Jesus and what that means.

Jesus?! The Name above all names is seldom mentioned in New Calvinist works. I visit churches and often leave wondering “What happened to Jesus?!”

Max wrote:

Lydia wrote:
The question, in my mind, is more about WHO is Jesus and what that means.
Jesus?! The Name above all names is seldom mentioned in New Calvinist works. I visit churches and often leave wondering “What happened to Jesus?!”

But, the Apostle Paul is surely mentioned. Intertwined with what Calvin and Piper think of him. I think Paul would be appalled by all the adoration heaped up him.

Jesus is our Savior. That thought should be paramount in our hearts. When times have been particularly tough for me, it’s Jesus who I call out to.

Who else knows us like Jesus? We don’t call out for help to Peter or Paul, Calvin or Piper. From the beginning, to the end, it’s Jesus who we place our heart and hope in.

Law Prof wrote:

The only way of understanding what the Lord inspired through Paul is through the filter of Jesus.

AMEN! If you read Paul first, you might read Jesus wrong … but if you read Jesus first (the Gospels), the writings of Paul come into perspective. That’s why I counsel young folks to read the words in red before they try to figure out what Paul is saying.

Jack wrote:

I would be surprised if anyone in this forum would advocate killing for so-called “moral” crimes or having our armed forces wipe out enemies to the last man, woman, child, camel, cow and donkey – and then enslave any survivors – to obtain their “God Given” land.

I have no problem with it…3,400 years ago in that particular place and time under those particular circumstances. Some of those moral crimes involved publicly torturing infants to death to appease imaginary gods–and the Lord was pretty clear that if the Hebrews didn’t wipe those cultures out, they’d in short order become just like them (and as we discover, they didn’t wipe them out and did become just like them). I have no problem with letting God be God, because He knows the infinite number of different results that would occur given infinite courses of action. He knows everything, loves everyone, knows who is and isn’t beyond all hope and knows precisely the best course of action to bring out the greatest possible good. And of course, that is not the path we’re to take today in the age that began with Jesus–we’re to love our enemies (though that’s an OT concept also, interestingly).

One reason people’s struggle with brutal things that happened at the command of God millenia ago is I think they imagine a god who has great power to do things but is otherwise like us, just an entity taking sides, not the actual God who loves everyone and knows everything. If I were in the shoes of my great, great grandfather in Germany in the 1800s and the Lord told me to kill an innocent boy, I better do it, I might be killing Hitler.

@ Law Prof:
Add to that a once renowned Music program that was totally trashed by Mohler to become the SGM Kauflin worship style department. It’s a joke in professional musician circles. But the now old timers who made it through back in the day have been some of the best around.

@ ishy:
It’s shocking to learn how marginalized women were. Many Greek warriors preferred little boys and even took them to war. Women were strictly for breeding. Babies they did not want were thrown on garbage heaps. The cultural backdrop is shocking.

Jack wrote:

know that our society isn’t perfect. I know that political correctness can run amok. But I would take our liberal democracy any day over any religious theocracy.

Agreed! In trying to make his kingdom of this world, religious folk are at war with the expression of his Kingdom in this world. I’ve gone through the painful process of losing some of those beliefs that were so comfortable to me, but I’m left with a much richer faith that has the power to really change me.

Sam wrote:

Excuse me? Just what Bible have those people been reading? (Last time I checked, that was NOT in there! …)

It’s a filk of Rev 13.4. I’ve been getting a lot of mileage out of it in the past few months.

@ Lydia:
Wikipedia wasn’t very explicit about what happened to him nor were the articles I was able to find on a google search. Except that he could not be “leader of the liberal democrats and a Christian”. Sounds to me like he disagreed with his party and they voted him out. Politics as usual. Do you have any specific material?

The transgender issue is way outside the scope of this blog but suffice it to say the same mechanisms that the PC crowd use are available to Christians as well. If you don’t like what’s happening, get involved, get out and vote. It ain’t the perfect system but if we feel strongly about a given issue, we still have freedom of speech. Everyone from the Communist Party in Canada to the KKK has a website. They just can’t condemn anyone to death.

ishy wrote:

A big problem involves translations and culture. A lot of churches don’t acknowledge that translations are often biased and concepts like marriage, homosexuality, and even church as we think of them now did not exist when the Bible was written. Marriage was often political or financial, not based on love or romance. Your wants, desires, or sexual orientation were irrelevant.

This goes a long way to addressing the elephant. Context is everything and those who wrote the bible were writing from a perspective that we cannot understand with the modern mind. We need to understand the history to understand the context. Biblical literalists tell us that every single word is true and inspired. You either believe all of it or none of it. With eternal souls at stake, too many aren’t willing to take the chance. Of course you throw in the fact that groupthink plays a huge role. When all your family and friends are part of the church, that goes a long way to squelching doubts.

Mae wrote:

I have no desire for either. Both liberal democracy and religious theology, have too many negatives for me. I’ll take the middle of the road, nothing in excess path, any day.

“Liberal” has too many connotations, maybe I should have used constitutional democracy. Majority rule with the constitution to protect all citizens. I agree with you.

@ Law Prof:
“….through the filter of Jesus….” Good counsel.
When I get confused over theology or discouraged over the State of the church, the world, I start reading through the Gospels. The gospel of Luke is my favorite.

Josh wrote:

So let me say, as a member of that hated minority myself, I will give a flying rip what the [traditional] church has to say about how I live my life when they start showing a hint of caring about the consequences of consigning us to lifelong celibacy in an environment that idolizes marriage, orients all of its community and care efforts toward couples, and beats up on single people. In the meantime, I’ll try to love God and love my neighbor to the best of my ability, and let the rest sort itself out between God and myself. In other words, if you’re not going to be a part of the solution, quit whining when I look for solutions on my own.

It comes down to knowing right from wrong. I know what’s right…. to paraphrase a famous American. We do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard. I don’t think most Christians realize what they promote and say and how that sounds to non-christians. I guess every Christian should live by the golden rule not the old testament ones.

Lydia wrote:

Snowflakes. Let’s send them coloring books.

Or therapy dogs to to support them when they are not on sabbatical or on their 4-5 weeks of paid vacation or conference leave.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Those were the crazy prophecy days. I used to buy into some of that craziness…it drove me nuts. So, I decided to take Jesus at His word and trust when I need to know when the end time has come, the Holy Spirit would prompt me. No promptings as of yet. 🙂

Max wrote:

“What happened to Jesus?!”

The Person of Jesus who spoke real words and worked real works has been replaced by the placeholder of “gospel” which can then be filled with whatever meaning the speaker or writer desires in order to serve his/her own purposes. I wish I were not being serious.

Whoops I meant 18th century BC document – which will make a whole lot more sense when my comment clears customs.

Mae wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Those were the crazy prophecy days. I used to buy into some of that craziness…it drove me nuts.

Same here. Flashbacks didn’t stop until the late Eighties (just in time to bypass Whisenhaunt’s 88 Reasons Rapture Scare) but some of the scars remain. My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) credits John Nelson Darby and Hal Lindsay with “destroying Protestant Christianity in America”.

scott hendrixson wrote:

“Hundreds followed Jesus, but the pastor leads thousands.”

And The Beast(TM) will lead millions to billions.

@ dee:

Hi Dee

Here are a few good British TV shows (especially if you like detective programs): Line Of Duty (SO good, especially Season 2 & 3); Shetland; The Missing (esp S02); Inspector Gently; Endeavour; Vera; and (not British) the Swedish Wallander is very good. That should keep you going for awhile.

@ Max:
My small town got one of those plants five years ago. Young pastor and wife, assistant pastor of music/arts, and his wife. Not self sufficient yet. Oh, and the young pastor and wife, just went on a sabbatical, for all their loooong and arduous labor. Bleh!

Half my church, including almost all of the ministry leaders and all of the elders, left because the New Apostolic Reformation came into our church when one of their top apostles told our pastor, who was in sin at the time and needing to step down, that he was an apostle and none of the elders were on his level of authority.

Two issues have finally completely exasperated me with the Evangelical/Pentecostal Church: the constant drumbeat about revival while the church itself is sick. I have finally concluded revival has more to do with the pastor’s ambition than feeding the flock; and the political support by a large percentage of white evangelicals for a man none of them would consider qualified to sit on their local school boards.

ION:

It was overcast on Emerald Isle this morning, which is perfect weather for a trip to the NC Aquarium at Pine Knoll Shores. When we arrived we saw several camp buses in the parking lot, which was a bit of a discouragement, but we located a parking space fairly easily. We bought a one year family pass, which includes free trips to the NC Zoo, as it was only $27 more than a one day pass to the aquarium. The kids (4 & 5) did great until we reached the gift shop where things went pear shaped for a moment or two as Brooke and I said “No” to a (another) plush stuffed mermaid and river other, but quickly righted themselves in the car on the way back to the cottage.

This afternoon the sun came out and the weather was perfect for time on the beach, which we all (daughter in college and her friend included) enjoyed. Now it’s time to throw some chicken on the grill and get the jambalaya started.

Here’s to “wasting your life” at the beach. I love God’s creation.

(HT Nick)

@ Root 66:

My comment was all sarcasm with a small “g” on men of god.

@ Josh:

I am sorry you feel so alienated.
I don’t believe I lean heavily to any side. Would like balance, fairness, as much as possible.
Until then, I wish you well.

@ Gram3:
Me too.

Mae wrote:

I don’t believe I lean heavily to any side. Would like balance, fairness, as much as possible.

The local University has “Social Justice Training” for all incoming students and follows this up with BRT (Bias Response Teams) that investigate reports on fellow students or faculty. I escaped from an authoritarian church but it had nothing like that Orwellian level of control.

As to the left vs right divide I’m finding many who are socially liberal and socially conservative finding common cause in leaving each other alone and that gives me some hope.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Mae wrote:
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Those were the crazy prophecy days. I used to buy into some of that craziness…it drove me nuts.
Same here. Flashbacks didn’t stop until the late Eighties (just in time to bypass Whisenhaunt’s 88 Reasons Rapture Scare) but some of the scars remain. My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) credits John Nelson Darby and Hal Lindsay with “destroying Protestant Christianity in America”.

I can remember being pretty resentful towards God because my wife and I were engaged to be married in ’89 and she refused to marry on minute before she graduated from college. So I can remember there was some day in ’88 when it was all supposed to happen–perhaps in September, but can’t remember for certain–and I held my breath and then fell to sleep that night thinking Jesus was returning before I woke up so the marriage scheduled for the next year was off. The woke up next morning and wondered if there was some kind of mistake…then it dawned on me it would still be that day for quite a few hours somewhere in the world, so I half expected it all to end in hours. When I woke up the day after that, think I’d earned my first real lesson in life about people who claimed to pursue Jesus but really just wanted fame, book deals, and everyone hanging each Sunday on their every word–and the claim the world was about to end will put them on the edge of their seats! And now it’s been 28 years of marriage and nine children and a grandchild and now I know a lot of people in the Christian media/big church complex are liars and full of it. That was just the first in three decades of lessons learned.

“Declines in membership can occur when the pastor has an agenda that is not supported by many in the church, knows it and proceeds with it anyway.” (Dee)
Declining membership … I hate being part of a statistic but your statement represents my experience. Forty years a member, worked against and then battled an increasingly authoritarian agenda, finally felt compelled to leave and didn’t go quietly. I now decline membership.

Thersites wrote:

Mae wrote:
I don’t believe I lean heavily to any side. Would like balance, fairness, as much as possible.
The local University has “Social Justice Training” for all incoming students and follows this up with BRT (Bias Response Teams) that investigate reports on fellow students or faculty. I escaped from an authoritarian church but it had nothing like that Orwellian level of control.
As to the left vs right divide I’m finding many who are socially liberal and socially conservative finding common cause in leaving each other alone and that gives me some hope.

Let’s hope the rest of society does not mimic the, BRT, model. Orwellian indeed!
Leaving each other alone is a healthy perspective. A self imposed peace treaty.

The spouse and I really enjoyed Shetland. We stumbled upon it when Netflix still had star ratings. Which I miss.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) credits John Nelson Darby and Hal Lindsay with “destroying Protestant Christianity in America”.

I think he’s largely right about that. The history of Darby and Scofield is… colorful and a little scary, and the impact they had on Evangelicalism in the US and UK is profound.

@ Thersites:
I am all about the gov not micromanaging me to death and people pretty much leaving each other alone. 🙂

Lydia wrote:

I am all about the gov not micromanaging me to death and people pretty much leaving each other alone.

Amen!

(That also works with “pastor and elder board” in place of “government” IMHO : )

Thanks for your concern, I am fine. Actually I used to live right next door to “The Torch.” A vacant lot separated me from that building. I have some good video of the first fire! Living in a building in Dubai called “The Torch” has proven to be about as dangerous as living in a trailer park in Oklahoma! Anyway, I heard there were no injuries, so thank God for that.

@ Todd Wilhelm:
Appreciate the update.

Thersites wrote:

I now decline membership.

Same here. Funny how the 9Marx authoritarians continually push their propaganda about the “necessity” of joining their church, but in my four years of attending the local Anglican Church I have not heard one sermon on the subject. For all their talk about ‘the gospel” I found the local 9Marx pushed membership much more frequently than the good news of our Savior’s atonement.

As a side note, I actually think it would be best to scrap the term “the gospel’ and “gospel centered” as they have become utterly meaningless due to misuse and over-use in the Gospelly Coalition crowd.

@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
Amen.

Law Prof wrote:

One reason people’s struggle with brutal things that happened at the command of God millenia ago is I think they imagine a god who has great power to do things but is otherwise like us, just an entity taking sides, not the actual God who loves everyone and knows everything. If I were in the shoes of my great, great grandfather in Germany in the 1800s and the Lord told me to kill an innocent boy, I better do it, I might be killing Hitler.

You’d better be for darn certain God is speaking to you, because you know as well as I do that “God told me to do it” is not a defense to murder in an American courtroom. If you’re lucky, you might get to spend the rest of your life in a mental institution. If you’re not, you may end up on death row.

My point is you’re making a huge assumption here, that God is speaking to you and telling you to take the life of someone. Really? Really? Now the Old Testament may talk about genocides, but what we’re learning is that these people didn’t disappear–they intermarried with the Yahweh followers.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/canaanite-bible-ancient-dna-lebanon-genetics-archaeology/

I have an opinion about the historical veracity of the genocide stories in the Old Testament, but out of respect for the Deebs, I’ll stop here.

Max wrote:

In my neck of the woods, the reformed church planters talk about gospel-centered this and gospel-centered that (gospel-centered coffee, etc.). One of the young preachers even refers to himself as the gospel!

It’s like “People” and “Democratic” in the name of a Third World Dictatorship.

“The more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.”
— TV Tropes, “People’s Republic of Tyranny”

Josh wrote:

Lydia wrote:
You should read up on Tim Ferron, a former liberal British MP and Christian and what PC did to him. He resigned even though he voted liberal but that was not good enough for the PC crowd.
But does not the exact same thing happen in conservative circles? Let’s not pretend that this is a malady that afflicts only the left, when anyone with conservative evangelicalism who ceases to toe the party line on the culture war issues du jour is summarily de-platformed.

Much of this is well beyond my ability to comprehend, but I can quote an obscure theologian on the subject:

“The President’s against the Congress
The Senate is against the House
People are against politicians
And I’m against cats in the house
But I’m for love and I’m for happiness
And I’m for “if you don’t like it can’t you just let it rest.”

Another line from the same work says:

“Hey, I’m for love I’m all for happiness
And I’m for not looking for something to make us mad”

Bocephus of Shreveport

In their Pharisetical arrogance, the leaders of these organizations deem it their duty to take two dimensional stances on issues that effect multi-dimensional human beings.
Love considers all dimensions. If you find a multi-dimensional pastor, please let me know.

Lea wrote:

As an adult, I pretty much stopped trying Baptist churches because every program had 15 male ‘pastors’ and a handful of women ‘directors’ and I just decided it was nonsense. That’s without a ‘proper roles’ sermon.
So yes. Valid.

We are a Baptist church. An American Baptist congregation.

Law Prof wrote:

But that said, there’s plenty there that is pretty clear, and the message of Christ is right there in one’s face, not a lot of wiggle room allowed when you have a person who claimed to be God in the flesh and to die for our sins.

I think if churches focused on Christ and less on all these side issues, we wouldn’t need to discuss this. But they make these moral issues more important than being a witness for Christ. I don’t believe you can moralize other people without giving them the central reason for faith first. There are churches who have a right focus. But the ones with the wrong focus end up being louder and more aggressive and usually they aren’t honest about the issues in the first place. So we have to talk about them.

Mae wrote:

We never thought we would attend a baptist church….until we went to an American Baptist. We call it home now. We have male and female deacons, teachers, pastors.

There’s a really good American Baptist church in my city. It’s a bit farther away than I want to go, but I know one of the female pastors there, along with several other people.

I think ABC churches are not common down here in the south, though. There’s more Cooperative Baptists, but even though they consider themselves egalitarian, they seem a bit behind in hiring female pastors. And there’s just soooo many SBC churches that seem like they take over everything, sometimes. I’ve only lived here a year and have been lectured by a few New Cals. They seem to get around to “proclaiming” their non-gospel “Gospel” at everyone.

Mae wrote:

We lived in Georgia for four years. Southern Baptists were dominant. Maybe you could find a good Methodist Church.

I live in Athens, GA and do attend a Methodist church. It has a female pastor and is wonderful. It just makes me sad there aren’t more egalitarian churches down here. Most of the ones that are egalitarian are tiny and do not have the influence that the SBC churches do.

I think I would have left the SBC much earlier had I found a more egalitarian church. Might even be ordained by now. And then, I ended up on the frontlines several times in seeing the SBC taken over by the New Cals and that was quite disturbing. I see nothing of Christ in authoritarianism, only pride and greed and other selfish sins.

Josh wrote:

Sorry, not sorry.

I lean libertarian because I have strong desire to leave everybody alone to live their lives, and be left alone myself, as much as is practical. [not fully libertarian, because the party is pretty much crazy]

@ Mae:

My aunt was a deacon in an American Baptist church in the 60’s and 70’s. It just wasn’t a big deal.

scott hendrixson wrote:

Bocephus of Shreveport

Now I find myself singing ‘the coalition to ban coalitions’ lol.

Lea wrote:

I got into some conversations about divorce the other day in which I basically said ‘let the spouse decide’ when there was abuse, adultery, ‘every man’s battle’, etc, and people (well, generally men) could not handle that at all! OMG, what will happen if we let people make up their own minds about their own marriages?

Why, their own wives might Get Ideas!

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

And (unlike Preacher Boyz who were born into Seminary and given a Church Plant Lead Pastorate at 20) such “Second Vocation” ordainments have Real World Experience.

I wish experience counted for more when churches chose pastors in any denomination, but often trendy is what they choose.

ishy wrote:

I wish experience counted for more when churches chose pastors in any denomination, but often trendy is what they choose.

I think there is something here related to true elders having more years in the faith, and with it hopefully the wisdom and experience to teach well, compared to men who have checkered pasts and suddenly renounce them and open up a church.

If I had a blog I might work something out with a bunch of examples of how this has turned into a huge problem – with both bad teaching and scandals as a result?

Lea wrote:

If I had a blog I might work something out with a bunch of examples of how this has turned into a huge problem – with both bad teaching and scandals as a result?

That sounds both scary and necessary….

Ken P. wrote:

@ Lea:
There is a grand total 2 American Baptist Churches here in the great state of South Carolina.

Actually, I am surprised there are two that exist! 🙂 Good on them!

Ken P. wrote:

@ Lea:
There is a grand total 2 American Baptist Churches here in the great state of South Carolina.

I found only 1 in my state!

Here’s an interesting article on a related topic in a recent edition of the Telegraph – “Bishop: Church ‘abandons’ the poor because clergy won’t leave middle-class areas with trendy coffee shops”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/03/bishop-church-abandons-poor-clergy-wont-leave-middle-class-areas/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

I also think so much in ministry culture often really stems from fear and control and decorating that control and fear with theology and phrases and programs and tribes – and it’s not often really about Jesus himself, not *really*. Though God language may often and sometimes be tediously used.

And identity issues in that the issue is someone’s identity is primarily anchored in a demonination, doctrine, job, label, etc and not really in Christ*. So typical group think and almost rabid like self-preservation and mob mentality to keep and sustain your false “identity” and the outfit you must dress in to keep the appearance. That false identity supersedes and prevents discovery, discerning and approaching reality and nuance in life and people, and ultimately God.

*Which is hard to do. I do not say this as “Oh Great One” who has no identity issues herself, lol.

__

“A Prolific Scalable Injection Of Calvin’s Hammer, Perhaps?”

hmmm…

The core system of doctrine as taught by John Calvin in his ‘Institutes’ ™, is simply repackaged Augustinian Gnosticism. It is this questionable doctrinal system that is currently being integrated by LifeWay Christian Resources book materials into the SBC.
___
http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/calvin-institutes-christianity/

😉

—

@ NC Now:
Sorry.

Sidenote on abuse and how it isn’t just churches that practice CYA…just saw a very passionate video regarding a guitar store that does lessons with kids, apparently did no background checks and thus hired someone with prior charges, and when the man was arrested for child abuse, was unwilling (according to an employee who resigned in protest) to notify any other parents of this teacher and tried to keep it all quiet. Can’t verify this story, but it sounds quite familiar.

@ NC Now:
@ Max:
Sorry, too, since I enjoyed Max’s comment, about name spelling. Read as humor, not serious.
Actually the name Thomas given by the parents can be shortened by the son in different ways. Kids will do that, so maybe the parents aren’t responsible after all. Maybe the son is a creative type or enjoys being different, unique.

@ NC Now:
@ JYJames:
NC Now was right to correct me. I accept it.

http://bit.ly/2wfdNrS Frank Schaeffer reveals the path from sincere faith to nefarious empire by some leaders in churches. Although I don’t share Frank’s theology necessarily, his insider journey is an expose of right gone wrong. He says he gets letters from pastors who want out but don’t know how to support their families. Frank struggled with this, too.

@ emily honey:
Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. You can tolerate it, treat it as secondary issue but it gnaws subconsciously because there isn’t even doctrinal justification for it —if one has done their homework. Therefore, any sermon quoting the supposed ‘no girlz allowed” verses is excuriating to sit through as a spectator. It wouldn’t work so well if real interaction was part of the venue.

Lydia wrote:

@ elastigirl:
The neo Cal boys are the most vacationing lot I have ever seen. All for the Gospel, of course.

RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
And rank bestowed by Divine Right hath the most Privileges of all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DxJ-zUtl60

Lea wrote:

Ken P. wrote:
@ Lea:
There is a grand total 2 American Baptist Churches here in the great state of South Carolina.
I found only 1 in my state!

There are 5 ABCs in Kentucky, but they are in the central and northern parts of the state. The closest one to me is. 110 mile driven each way.

@ GSD [Getting Stuff Done]:
@ JYJames:
In this video, link up-thread, Frank Schaeffer mentions pastors that do not agree with the direction of their church but need to support their families. Difficult choices.

Lydia wrote:

@ elastigirl:
The neo Cal boys are the most vacationing lot I have ever seen. All for the Gospel, of course.

Don’t you know a sabbatical is much holier then a vacation? ( sarcasm )

Dee and Deb,
You probably know this, but I doubt Rainer’s adherence to New Calvinism is particularly sincere. He was a big advocate of the church growth movement back in the day. If New Calvinism was not currently prominent in the SBC, I doubt he’d support it. From what I’ve seen of both Stetzer’s and Rainer’s publications, they are intelligent enough to probably realize New Calvinist approaches to church growth are not working in the SBC and also cynical enough not to care. By the way, Rainer had some pretty interesting connections to C. Peter Wagner, back in the day, though he appears to have distanced himself from Wagner. At times I have wondered if this is because Rainer wanted to claim the mantle of leadership in church growth circles, though by now, with the church growth movement dying, I suppose that’s a non-issue.

Regards,
John Weaver

In the interest of fair disclosure, I am a Calvinist and a complementarian. Hopefully I am a nice one!

There are just are not enough mature, humble men in leadership in most churches. I am referring specifically to unpaid, volunteer leadership positions. We used to call them elder boards or deacon boards, but I guess that term is not cool so we do not use it nowadays. It opens the door for some of these young immature wannabes to find their way into leadership. In other words, they are millennials that cannot find a real job or do not bother looking for one. ( I know I am generalizing )

In my own career I know several men who are very experienced and want to retire. The funny thing is, their companies keep talking them out of retirement because it is tough to find good replacements that are younger. They are over 65 and very capable leaders. In these cases, the compensation is phenomenal. These men can be trusted to work and not sit on their smart phones all day.

I see in my own church three or four men who really are qualified but very burdened with other responsibilities. Their businesses are trying to do more and more with fewer people. So men who would otherwise be serving as lay leaders are working 55 and 60 hour weeks. Many have a heavy travel schedule. These men would be very qualified to lead many ministries, but they simply turn it down. They could also serve to hold paid leadership accountable, or perhaps simply mentor them.

I am not suggesting that this is an excuse for not serving. We will all be held accountable to God for how we spend our time. However, once you are entangled in a career, it is very difficult to unwind it all.

I point this out because I believe a lot of the issues discussed on this blog, would be resolved if the grownups were in charge.

George wrote:

In the interest of fair disclosure, I am a Calvinist and a complementarian … There are just are not enough mature, humble men in leadership in most churches … I believe a lot of the issues discussed on this blog, would be resolved if the grownups were in charge.

AMEN!

George, your comment crosses theological lines – thank you for providing your perspective. Church is supposed to be comprised of multi-generations in their proper Biblical roles … older men teaching younger men, older women teaching younger women. In many corners of the New Calvinist movement, congregations are populated primarily by Generation X, Y, and Z … older folks are missing. When you have a pastor in his 20s-30s and an “elder” team of 20-30 year olds, the youth group is running the church! I’m not saying that all folks in their 20s-30s are not spiritually mature, but age sure helps get to that point. Our churches need the wisdom of older folks coupled with the energy of youth; young folks to speed things up, older folks to slow it down … balance.

The early church did not have the division between pulpit and pew that we have today. Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part!

Max wrote:

Church is supposed to be comprised of multi-generations in their proper Biblical roles … older men teaching younger men, older women teaching younger women.

My boss is a woman, and she also trained me in my current role. When I was a lab supervisor, I mentored and supervised women and men.

Maybe this divide between the sexes in churches is contributing to decline in attendance.

Especially if those roles involve men discussing the business while the’gals’ serve dinner and watch the little ones.

Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

Jack wrote:
Especially if those roles involve men discussing the business while the’gals’ serve dinner and watch the little ones.

That is a big part of why I stopped attending church,

I haven’t quit my complementarian SBC congregation yet, but the next time I need to look for a church, the trait mentioned here is one I will take pains to avoid. Starting next time, it’ll be only full egalitarian churches for me (and as you might have picked up earlier, there will be other factors at play in my selection as well, but beyond being … well, Christian … this is of prime importance).

@ George:
George, I do believe that you are a nice Complementarian Calvinist. So, no disrespect intended, but I do believe it is a shame that some capable women can’t step up and fill some of the gaps in your church. We come in grown up versions, too.

I stopped attending church because our current church is so strict on women —— Sing in the choir, teach women or small children, and bring the covered dishes .,,, that’s it. Can’t speak in business meetings or mixed gender SS classes. There are men’s meeting prior to the business meetings or determine what will be discussed at the business meetings – no gurlz allowed. All of the deacons will come around, shake my husband’s hand and speak to him, but I guess I’m invisible. Two of the deacons constantly insult women drivers……. Half the men in the church almost fainted when they found out my husband didn’t shoot that copperhead — I did. Gasp!

As a former high school math teacher and a woman who was also very active in our former church, I feel like an outcast in this church, just because God decided to make me a female.

elastigirl wrote:

@ George:
men men men men men

I expect you are very nice person, indeed….. but if you only know how obnoxious it all sounds.

Yeah…it struck me that way too. stop limiting leadership to half your membership, maybe solve some of the problems and more besides.

Max wrote:

Jack wrote:
Maybe this divide between the sexes in churches is contributing to decline in attendance.
No doubt about it. Scripture also records women having churches in their homes and serving in the offices of prophet and deacon. I have no problem with women preaching and teaching the whole Body of Christ if they are gifted to do so. Any subordination of believers by race, class, or gender is just wrong … we are all one in Christ.

Biblical truth!

Josh wrote:

So let me say, as a member of that hated minority myself, I will give a flying rip what the [traditional] church has to say about how I live my life when they start showing a hint of caring about the consequences of consigning us to lifelong celibacy in an environment that idolizes marriage, orients all of its community and care efforts toward couples, and beats up on single people. In the meantime, I’ll try to love God and love my neighbor to the best of my ability, and let the rest sort itself out between God and myself. In other words, if you’re not going to be a part of the solution, quit whining when I look for solutions on my own.

Josh, you took words right out of my mouth. I left a church over this and I could not care less any more about their opinion. Especially as they also sell books by Piper and Mahaney. They abused me over the way I chose to live my life and for leaving church. I told them to get their own house in order and stop selling books by pastors that enable child abuse and domestic violence. They were clearly not interested because I sent them the evidence and their facial expressions and vocal tones showed discomfort with “we will look when we get time”. A year later they have not looked, and I have given up asking them about it. I said to them “I have no doubt that you would remove the books instantly if they were written by women”. It really opened my eyes to what kind of people they really are and I have no intention of setting foot in a church associated with the Gospel Coalition again.

@ emily honey:

“I also think so much in ministry culture often really stems from fear and control and decorating that control and fear with theology and phrases and programs and tribes – and it’s not often really about Jesus himself, not *really*. Though God language may often and sometimes be tediously used.”
++++++++++++

oh, absolutely true. i like that “decorating fear and control with theology and phrases and programs and tribes”. i’m so disappointed in this silly religion of mine — it’s like a rabid virus passed between pastors and parishioners, fear and the need to control and decorating it with “God” words to justify it to oneself and to others. so very dishonest.

at this point it goes without saying, but it’s the reason complementarianism exists. it’s the premise behind the flood of christian books and the reason why they sell.
————————-

“And identity issues… someone’s identity is primarily anchored in a demonination, doctrine, job, label, etc and not really in Christ*. So typical group think and almost rabid like self-preservation and mob mentality to keep and sustain your false “identity” and the outfit you must dress in to keep the appearance. That false identity supersedes and prevents discovery,”
++++++++++++++

yes, a uniform people put on, based on the identity which people with power determine for them. all based on fear and control. those with power fear losing their power, those without power fear what their influencers have trained them to fear. the group together fears the loss of predictable order imposed by the grid of fear and control.

yuck

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

Law Prof wrote:
One reason people’s struggle with brutal things that happened at the command of God millenia ago is I think they imagine a god who has great power to do things but is otherwise like us, just an entity taking sides, not the actual God who loves everyone and knows everything. If I were in the shoes of my great, great grandfather in Germany in the 1800s and the Lord told me to kill an innocent boy, I better do it, I might be killing Hitler.
You’d better be for darn certain God is speaking to you, because you know as well as I do that “God told me to do it” is not a defense to murder in an American courtroom. If you’re lucky, you might get to spend the rest of your life in a mental institution. If you’re not, you may end up on death row.

Of course you’d better be darned certain. And you better be prepared to be put on death row or killed outright. That’s exactly what happened to most of the disciples of Jesus, by the way. If God tells you to do anything, you’d better be prepared to do it completely without regard to what might happen on this earth. That’s the point. If we’re assuming the true God of the Universe is speaking to you, you do what He says no matter what.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

My point is you’re making a huge assumption here, that God is speaking to you and telling you to take the life of someone. Really? Really? Now the Old Testament may talk about genocides, but what we’re learning is that these people didn’t disappear–they intermarried with the Yahweh followers.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/canaanite-bible-ancient-dna-lebanon-genetics-archaeology/
I have an opinion about the historical veracity of the genocide stories in the Old Testament, but out of respect for the Deebs, I’ll stop here.

Hey, that was my point. Yes, “really, really?”. Yes, absolutely. If God does truly speak to you, you do absolutely anything, including putting your own child on the altar (see Abraham/Isaac). Of course! Again, this is if God is truly speaking to you. Another point is you’re right, and that’s what I was referring to, the Israelites did intermarry with people from that region, and it was exactly the wrong thing to do. They disobeyed God and as a result became just like those people who were torturing their children to death, with consequences that are still felt to this day. They absolutely should have obeyed God and wiped those people out 3,400 or so years ago. Again, I am making the assumption that God actually told them to do that–the God who knows everything, the God who knows who is and isn’t beyond all hope.

Of course, you’re making an assumption also, that God didn’t rreally say what the Bible says He said. In all candor, I think that’s a scarier assumption than the one I’m making. My point is simply that there are times when things sound crazy to our human ears but if it’s God doing the talking, assuming He really is the God who knows past, present, future, then you have to assume that He knows best and you follow Him. No. Matter. What. That’s faith, that’s the point. You don’t just get to make up your own theology of right and wrong and follow that. That’s what kills you in the end. Not following God regardless of how crazy it sounds. Note that I’m not saying anyone who claims to follow God is doing so, I’m not saying there aren’t insane people who say “God told me so”–of course there are.

Law Prof wrote:

My point is simply that there are times when things sound crazy to our human ears but if it’s God doing the talking, assuming He really is the God who knows past, present, future, then you have to assume that He knows best and you follow Him. No. Matter. What. That’s faith, that’s the point. You don’t just get to make up your own theology of right and wrong and follow that. That’s what kills you in the end. Not following God regardless of how crazy it sounds.

Yeah, and the reason I reject the interpretive lens that leads to this ideology is that it leaves me in the position of having no other frame of reference – I can’t think about another person’s perspective, I can’t consider whether it seems cruel or vindictive – with which to evaluate purported commands from God. For example, God literally tells you in scripture to stone me to death (for being gay, BTW). The fact that you’re not doing this either means that you fear the US government more than you fear God, or you may not be taking your stated beliefs to their full logical conclusion.

anon in the EFCA wrote:

I often say in sermons, “As go the leaders, so goes the church.” Even when there are unhealthy power groups, they often grow out of an unhealthy church culture with poor leadership.

I was young and now am old. During my long journey in both business and church, I’ve observed a dynamic regarding leadership that takes place in various institutions, including companies, churches, and homes. After a while, the institution takes on the personality of its leader(s).

I’ve also come to realize that everything which comes against the church cannot be blamed on the flesh or the world. The devil – the enemy of the church – gets involved at some point and establishes strongholds within the church that are tough to remove. We see the flesh (e.g., prominent families that ‘own’ the church demanding their way), but we fail to discern the spirit driving the flesh … which is not holy. For some reason, these strongholds appear to be most prevalent in rural America, where controlling families and their minions ‘run’ the pastor and deacons. It takes a strong leader to overcome this culture and he better be prepared to intercede for the Lord’s help with focused prayer and wise preaching/teaching to lead the people out of bondage.

I agree, Max, that there can powerful folks in the pews that cause division and heartache. And I appreciate your reminder that we “do not wrestle against flesh and blood…” We desperately need that reminder. However, as a pastor, I am much more quick to lay blame at the feet of the pastor and elders, EVEN when the people in the pews rebel. Some rebel because they are incredibly prideful and power hungry but others rebel because of some form of abusive leadership, however great or small.

Our small town has a LONG history of terrible church splits. When I helped plant the church 17 years ago, one of my prayers at the time was, “Lord, if this new church is going to cause more harm than good in this community, please kill it.” I’d rather have had a failed church plant and be out of a job than to cause “one of these little ones to stumble.”

So if I were to write a list like Rainer’s, people in the pews would be on the list but pastor/elder blame would be at the top.

anon in the EFCA wrote:

Our small town has a LONG history of terrible church splits.

I live in an area that has 18 Southern Baptist churches within a 20 mile radius. Most are splits off of a large “First” church during the last 50 years. One of those recently split again when a young New Calvinist took over the pulpit of a traditional church through stealth and deception. The older non-Calvinist church members started another church to continue preaching whosoever will may come. One of the YRR members in their old church joking tells folks that it is their new church plant! The arrogance of these new reformers continues to amaze me.

Mae wrote:

They have the nerve to overtake a church, and then call it a new plant.

In this case, they call the church they stole a “replant” since they have brought in the true gospel they say the previous church lost (they mean Calvinism, of course). They jokingly refer to the folks who left to form another church their church plant. These folks are sick.

Apropos people in the pew, I find that folks take their cues from clergy. And if the clergyperson stays long enough, the church even takes on a personality much like him or her’s.

This paradigm also can come about through inaction. Or as one person said of a clergyperson I know, “I would never belong to [that] church. And it’s because of the way people talk to each other. And it goes right to the top. And I’ll tell you right now, [he] will never say anytbing about it. And because [he] engages in a certain amount of it himself, he shows people it’s okay.”