Mark Driscoll – Back in the Public Eye

"And so the governing board in authority over me invited us to continue, and we prayed about it and talked about it as a family and felt like we heard from the Lord, and I resigned…"

Mark Driscoll (Life Today Interview)

https://twitter.com/pastormark?lang=enMark Driscoll – Twitter

We were expecting severe weather here in the Raleigh area yesterday morning, so as soon as I got up I wanted to watch the local forecast. I'm still not sure whether what happened was human error or divine providence (perhaps both?). As I punched the numbers on the remote, the image that suddenly appeared on our TV screen was that of Mark Driscoll!

The program I had inadvertently tuned into was Life Today, and Mark Driscoll was being interviewed by Sheila Walsh and Randy Robison. Here is a short clip from that interview.

You can watch the entire 18-minute interview on Mark Driscoll's website — just click here.

Of course, Driscoll made sure his Twitter followers knew about his public appearance by sending out the following Tweet (see screen shot below).

As the interview began, Randy Robison said to Mark, "You've been, you know, a little hidden for a while," to which Driscoll responded, "Yeah, I've been in the witness protection program." 

Early in the interview, Driscoll explained how 10,000 people were baptized during the existence of Mars Hill Church, that 15,000 attendees would show up on a typical Sunday in 15 locations in 5 states, and that his ministry exceeded all expectations. Then Mark Driscoll had this to say of his previous church (Mars Hill):

We had a governance war at the church that went eight years behind the scenes over who's in charge and how things play out, and so at the end we had 67 elders in 15 locations in 5 states, a large percentage of whom I had never met, and they wanted to have independent local churches and we were one large church in many locations so there was an eight-year battle that finally went public the last year. It was very painful for everyone involved, especially the wonderful, dear generous amazing people that served and gave and made it all happen. And so the governing board in authority over me invited us to continue, and we prayed about it and talked about it as a family and felt like we heard from the Lord, and I resigned and left without uh… Didn't have an opportunity to say good-bye to the people, so I want to just let them know how much I love them and appreciate them and wish I would have had that opportunity, and we took some time off just to heal up. I signed a non-disclosure agreement, you're not gonna talk about it which was fair and reasonable and I agree with and just decided to spend time together as a family, to heal up, to meet with wise counsel, to learn what we could learn, and to see what the Lord had for us in the next season of our life…. There's the whole story.

After this lengthy explanation, Sheila Walsh said you [Mark] start so small, see God do amazing things, and it grows and grows, and suddenly there's this death by committee. Then she asks: "What did that do to you?"

Sheila, Sheila, Sheila — there's ALWAYS two sides to every story, and you're hearing only one side. It would behoove you to spend some time talking with some of those 'dear people' who faithfully gave their time, talent, and treasure to Mars Hill Church, only to be berated by Mark Driscoll. The first two people who come to mind were pastors/elders at Mars Hill – namely Paul Petry and Bent Meyer. Sheila, did you know that your buddy Mark FIRED them? Sorry, but that doesn't line up with the story Mark Driscoll shared with you and Randy Robison. Mark was definitely the boss, lording it over these two elders. He even spoke about it in one of his sermons. Check out this clip.

Does that line up with what Mark told you? Absolutely not! And then there's this montage of quotes from Mark.

Does that sound like a loving pastor who cares for his flock like a father loves his children?

Then there are the serious charges of plagiarism in Driscoll's books, his using $200,000 of church funds to ensure that his book Real Marriage was a New York Times bestseller, his scandalous sermon on the Song of Solomon, which he preached in Scotland. By the way, it was so vile that it was quickly removed from the church website.

Did you know that Mark sees things? Wonder if he saw the demise of Mars Hill Church before it actually happened.

Then there was the re-writing of the by-laws in order to give Mark Driscoll more power. Here is an excerpt from a well-documented article in The Stranger entitled "Why the Mars Hill Faithful Have Started to Queston Mark:

Then Driscoll—along with right-hand man Munson—proposed rewriting the bylaws, concentrating more power in Driscoll’s hands.

Sheila, it would behoove you to read this article in order to understand what REALLY happened to Mark Mars Hill Church. (Whoops! That was an honest typo from a late night of blogging).

And one last thing, I'm still angry at Mark Driscoll for coming to my daughter's college, speaking to her Campus Crusade for Christ group, and pretending (that's what I believe happened) to be asked a question about oral and anal sex. I heard a recording of his talk and wrote about it in this post from 2009 – Driscoll's Sex Tips and the Tipping Point.

So Sheila, instead of having so much compassion for Mark Driscoll, why not spend some time reading about his antics (there is so much information online!) and reaching out to those who have been hurt by him. We would be more than happy to put you in contact with some of them.

There's a saying – Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Well, there are MANY who refuse to be fooled by Mark Driscoll a second time, and we believe your interview with Mark was most likely hurtful to them. 🙁


Comments

Mark Driscoll – Back in the Public Eye — 281 Comments

  1. Blergh. You don’t even know how much it annoys me to see that man’s ugly mug again.

    The fact that he’s still infesting Scottsdale bugs me to no end.

    And I blame the Calvinistas (*you know who you are*) for not dealing with him when he first became a problem. He’s STILL your problem.

  2. “And one last thing, I’m still angry at Mark Driscoll for coming to my daughter’s college, speaking to her Campus Crusade for Christ group, and pretending (that’s what I believe happened) to be asked a question about oral and anal sex. I heard a recording of his talk and wrote about it in this post from 2009 – Driscoll’s Sex Tips and the Tipping Point.” – Deb

    Mark Driscoll isn’t just sick, but sickening. (Loosely quoting attorney/child abuse advocate/ and author Andrew Vachss and what he says about enablers of sex abusers.)

  3. Deb wrote:

    @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes:
    AMEN! They worshiped and adored him, and look what happened. The church he founded is no more.

    I prayed and fasted for the closing of Mars Hill Church, it was so destructive. And I’m all of the way in California.

    To me it was an answer to prayer when it shuttered.

    And then there is the likes of John Piper who called it “a loss for The Gospel” in Seattle.
    Some people NEVER get it.

  4. Demonic torment???? I know who the demon is!!!! I know who the demon is!!!! The demon is the narcissist who “sees things”! And he did cause much torment. He needs to be committed to a mental institution.

  5. Nancy2 wrote:

    He needs to be committed to a mental institution.

    He needs to be “committed” to making amends and restitution to all of the people he damaged, starting with the Paul Petry family in Seattle whom he ordered be excommunicated from Mars Hill Church and the firing of Paul Petry (an Ivy League attorney, godly man and church elder).

  6. Mark Driscoll, in the first video, is always the victim and never the abuser in his own eyes. Sick. And dead wrong.

  7. Velour wrote:

    He needs to be “committed” to making amends and restitution to all of the people he damaged, starting with the Paul Petry family in Seattle whom he ordered be excommunicated from Mars Hill Church and the firing of Paul Petry (an Ivy League attorney, godly man and church elder).

    While we’re asking for the impossible… I would like a rainbow unicorn please.

  8. Jack wrote:

    I would like a rainbow unicorn please.

    LOL.

    I can only make you a rainbow unicorn cake, Jack, completed with colored layers of cake.
    But we could all sit down with a slice of cake and a cup of strong coffee…and contemplate “the impossible”.

  9. These two interviews about Mars Hill came out in the past month or so if people have not been made aware of them:

    https://player.fm/series/pastor-with-no-answers

    Episode 74 and Episode 81.

    The interviews feature two Mars Hill women who were in prominent leadership positions in the church alongside their husbands..sharing their story of what they experienced behind the scenes and how they have been healing and processing everything. They also both go into how the environment and gender theology effected them as women. I was really impressed with both of them and how they articulated and presented everything. So much good stuff in both!!

    It seemed like there are more women who will be interviewed and featured in the future?

  10. Marky (or should I say Malarkey) is on the P.R. trail and doing Damage Control. Maybe some rumors of Driscoll’s bad behavior started floating around his new church plant. Gotta make sure those tithes keep comin’ in. Solution: Go on a public format where they’ll be sure to sympathize with his story. Gotta hand it to Driscoll. He sure knows how to use strategic management techniques to his advantage.

  11. “Mark” Hills Church. That’s about the size of it, Deb.

    As far as that perverted Song of Solomon sermon, I found it on YouTube in audio format about 2 years ago. One of the most degrading parts was his instruction to wives on how to evangelize their unbelieving husbands.

  12. Listening to his “Under the Bus” clip absolutely makes my skin crawl!! He is despicable beyond mere words, and a worker for the Kingdom of Darkness. It’s Amazing how Jesus’ model for leadership is the complete opposite of Driscoll’s. He doesn’t sound like a shepherd that would lay down his life for the sheep–no, he’d have “flattened lamb” after running over everyone! Perhaps Driscoll should have read the rest of the New Testament about the judgment that awaits those who causes one of the “least of these” to stumble. God help us if this is what the Bride of Christ has become!

  13. Men like Driscoll and his cohorts need to be made to do hours and hours of community service in the worst areas of the big cities. Maybe then they might learn the lesson of humility. They would hear the stories of the down and out who really need a helping hand. Maybe they could be put on dead animal pick up detail. That’s a tough one. So many people struggle in life to just get by and then you have the likes of Mr. Driscoll who rub it in their faces. They build bigger and bigger buildings and collect a mass of wealth. It will all come tumbling down. Like Humpty Dumpty who fell off the wall and couldn’t get up again.

  14. Deb wrote:

    So basically the ones at Mars Hill Church who were not compliant became road kill.

    Not just compliant, but completely obedient …… and completely committed …….not to God, but to Driscoll.

  15. @ Root 66:
    well, the big man threw his wife under the bus too when he publicly talked about his ‘vision’ of her pre-marital infidelity

    what kind of Christian does that?
    what kind of man does that?

    ?

  16. Christiane wrote:

    well, the big man threw his wife under the bus too when he publicly talked about his ‘vision’ of her pre-marital infidelity
    what kind of Christian does that?
    what kind of man does that?

    One who is not a man, but a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

  17. What I find telling is MD’s focusing on numbers…. The numbers of attenders and numbers of baptism’s justify everything else??
    The Mormons claim large numbers also!

  18. Theme from “The Godfather” played in my head as I listened to the “under the bus” spiel. Don Corleone, however, was never that crude.

  19. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    What I find telling is MD’s focusing on numbers…. The numbers of attenders and numbers of baptism’s justify everything else??
    The Mormons claim large numbers also!

    I went to a certain large church that used to add the numbers of a certain large Christian university that I attended to its membership roles, so they could tell people they had huge numbers of people joining every year.

  20. Spartacus wrote:

    Theme from “The Godfather” played in my head as I listened to the “under the bus” spiel. Don Corleone, however, was never that crude.

    Driscoll reminds me more of Sonny Corleone with his verbal crudities, though I’ve never heard of Marky actually beating anyone up.

  21. Nancy2 wrote:

    Does Driscoll have to don the Mickey Mouse t-shirt before he can see things?

    I know. He ruined it for me. Brand damage. Sigh.

  22. After one paragraph of bragging, blaming, and Christianese jargon Mark Driscoll said, “There’s the whole story.”

    Right.

  23. Dee and Deb: is anyone archiving videos of Driscoll and others, to prevent them from disappearing from youtube?

  24. I still can’t get over those vests Driscoll now wears over his Oxford shirts. That plaid one looks weird. I’m half expecting him to start wearing tweed jackets with leather patches on the elbows, and perhaps take up smoking a pipe. Maybe he can get a fake degree from Cambridge while he’s at it. I mean, if you’re gonna go hipster, might as well go all the way.

  25. NJ wrote:

    I still can’t get over those vests Driscoll now wears over his Oxford shirts. That plaid one looks weird. I’m half expecting him to start wearing tweed jackets with leather patches on the elbows, and perhaps take up smoking a pipe. Maybe he can get a fake degree from Cambridge while he’s at it. I mean, if you’re gonna go hipster, might as well go all the way.

    Hey, did you ever see him with the puka shell necklace? His Seattle-casual look?
    I wore that kind of necklace in junior high!

  26. I used to have a great deal of respect for James Robison when he was operating within his gifting as an evangelist. He doesn’t appear to have much discernment as a guest show host – that can happen if you step outside of your caling. He surely approves who comes on the show, whether he personally interviews them or not. As you note, Life Today needs to vet their guests better. There are not two sides to every story with Driscoll … there is really only one as he makes his unrepentant comeback. Many of the horror-story preachers in the New Calvinist movement which end up as TWW subjects were influenced by the potty-mouth preacher from Seattle. Forgive him (if he truly repents)? Yes. Restore him to ministry? NO!

    Note: Matt Chandler has also been a guest on Life Today.

  27. Velour wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    I still can’t get over those vests Driscoll now wears over his Oxford shirts. That plaid one looks weird. I’m half expecting him to start wearing tweed jackets with leather patches on the elbows, and perhaps take up smoking a pipe. Maybe he can get a fake degree from Cambridge while he’s at it. I mean, if you’re gonna go hipster, might as well go all the way.

    Hey, did you ever see him with the puka shell necklace? His Seattle-casual look?
    I wore that kind of necklace in junior high!

    No I didn’t, but that doesn’t surprise me. I was familiar with the Mickey Mouse getup, which thankfully he’s ditched. I suppose after being prophetically spoken over, he needs to look the part of a father instead of the older brother. He must not like ties, though.

  28. “… suddenly there’s this death by committee …”

    Driscoll braided the rope over a period of years and hung himself.

  29. I wonder if Mark actually did sign an NDA, which he implies was something imposed on him, although he agreed to it. Which means he can’t talk about it beyond the other things he’s implied. As somebody once said, “how conveeeeeeeeeeenient”.

  30. I hope Sheila Walsh and Randy Robison somehow get wind of this TWW post and read the real story behind Driscoll’s rise and fall. They have just given the potty-mouth a national stage painting a picture of an anointed one and and rejection by his disciples. Well, Mark ain’t Jesus. Life Today owes the good folks who follow their ministry an apology, retraction of the piece, and purging of the interview from their video file so it doesn’t get further distribution.

  31. A psychologist familiar with body language, facial expression, and art of deceptive words would know that Driscoll is weaving a lie. A discerning Christian familiar with his “ministry” would also know that.

  32. NJ wrote:

    I still can’t get over those vests Driscoll now wears over his Oxford shirts. That plaid one looks weird. I’m half expecting him to start wearing tweed jackets with leather patches on the elbows, and perhaps take up smoking a pipe. Maybe he can get a fake degree from Cambridge while he’s at it. I mean, if you’re gonna go hipster, might as well go all the way.

    You left out the walking cane and the bowler hat.

  33. Velour wrote:

    always the victim

    Unfortunately, there is always a corner of the church which will buy “Poor Mark” lies and keep deceivers on stage (Driscoll, Mahaney, etc.). The organized church doesn’t have enough discernment to see the enemy coming, so it is not prepared for battle. Thank God for watchmen on the walls who see and warn.

  34. On a more serious note, I worry a bit about the Driscoll children. With a father like that, what will the children grow up to become ……….? I hope the boys don’t follow in their father’s footsteps. And, I fear that the girls have been raised to be doormats.

  35. Christiane wrote:

    well, the big man threw his wife under the bus too when he publicly talked about his ‘vision’ of her pre-marital infidelity
    what kind of Christian does that?
    what kind of man does that?
    ?

    The kind of man who is pastoring a church in Scottsdale today–and whose attendees don’t seem to care that he treated Grace abominably.

  36. Driscoll is not new to Life Today. I recalled an interview (2014) he had with Randy Robison before his fall and located the following video. Life Today essentially promoted not only Driscoll in the piece, but the New Calvinist movement since Driscoll was a key spokesman for the resurgent church, after his stint as emergent, and before he became submergent … but he is rising again.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9wHN0whYUQ

  37. Nancy2 wrote:

    On a more serious note, I worry a bit about the Driscoll children.

    Agreed. I also have had concerns about his wife over the years. Was she forced to play the potty-mouth game?

  38. Max wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    On a more serious note, I worry a bit about the Driscoll children.
    Max wrote: Agreed. I also have had concerns about his wife over the years. Was she forced to play the potty-mouth game?

    Not to mention all of the adolescents in the church who have reached the age where they realize that the adolescent members of the opposite gender really don’t have cooties!

  39. From what I’ve read about the way he pursued Grace when they were dating, Driscoll has *stalker* written all over him.

  40. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    The kind of man who is pastoring a church in Scottsdale today–and whose attendees don’t seem to care that he treated Grace abominably.

    What is so awful is that he published private details of their relationship which to me should have been kept private, as those details are sacred. Example: “Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her.”
    Now just TELLING her this would have been heart-breaking, but no, he doesn’t stop there ….. he writes it up and publishes it in his book and it is there for all of us to see. And worse, her sons and daughters will one day read this, and they will be hurt by it also.

    I think what passes between a husband and wife should be kept sacred, private. When one trashes the other publicly, it reflects more on the one doing the trashing than on the victim, the victim in this case being Grace. No one deserves that kind of abuse. If that is a sample of how Driscoll wants his followers to treat their wives, then OMG, no wonder his world fell apart. What he did to Grace was unmanly and cruel and destructive.
    If I knew nothing more about him than that he wrote such a thing about his own wife, I would not think well of him or see him as someone who could be trusted with the well-being of any soul.

  41. Could it be that ROBERT MORRIS is behind Driscoll’s appearance on Life Today?

    Morris is currently on Driscoll’s governing board at his new church in Arizona. At one time, Morris was a regular on Life Today and was known as James Robison’s pastor.

  42. Max wrote:

    Driscoll is not new to Life Today. …

    Right, Max, and thanks for that link. I was just looking for it. I knew I’d seen Driscoll on Robison’s show within the past few years. I don’t think I watched the whole thing, though. That was around the time I pretty much gave up on Christian TV.

  43. Poor Persecuted Mark. The guy who threw all those people under the bus – bragging about it no less – found himself without a church for a while. Boo hoo.

  44. Max wrote:

    Could it be that ROBERT MORRIS is behind Driscoll’s appearance on Life Today? …

    Probably. I’m wondering about that as well.

  45. Max wrote:

    A psychologist familiar with body language, facial expression, and art of deceptive words would know that Driscoll is weaving a lie. A discerning Christian familiar with his “ministry” would also know that.

    I played the Mark Driscoll “Under the Bus” video for my husband today. He’s never heard of Driscoll and pegged him right away. He couldn’t understand why anyone would want to listen to the guy. That “Paul threw people in the wood chipper comment was over the top.

  46. @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    When I was in high school, I po’d an SBC youth minister who was bragging about how many people were ‘saved’ at a revival. All I asked was ” Wouldn’t Jesus be happy with just one person?”

  47. Talmidah wrote:

    Max wrote:

    Could it be that ROBERT MORRIS is behind Driscoll’s appearance on Life Today? …

    Probably. I’m wondering about that as well.

    I wouldn’t be surprised. He’s learned the language of that Christian Camp well in order to fit in. A chameleon that can make the system work for him.

  48. Darlene wrote:

    Poor Persecuted Mark. The guy who threw all those people under the bus – bragging about it no less – found himself without a church for a while. Boo hoo.

    And by all that’s good and holy he should still be without a church.

    I can only assume that there were no other churches up and running when Driscoll blew into Scottsdale. I can see no other reason one might attend The Trinity Church…but that’s just me.

  49. Talmidah wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    … A chameleon that can make the system work for him.
    Agreed, Darlene. I’d also call him a Marjoe:
    https://archive.org/details/Marjoe.1972.Legendado

    In defense of Marjoe Gortner, he did that documentary to expose what was going on.

    My late father played a lot of things about his childhood close to the vest because growing up on the farm was extremely stressful. (For one, they didn’t own the land. They were sharecroppers.) One time, during the Jim Bakker scandal in the later 1980s, we were driving together to something and he started talking about the evangelists who would come through his small Oklahoma town in the 1930s and 1940s. He said one particular evangelist had a rattletrap car that barely held together with string and bailing wire. The guy timed it to hit town (with the connivance of the local pastor) right about the time the chief crop, cotton, was going to market and people actually had cash in their pockets. Dad said the evangelist would just rake it in during those weeks, leaving people basically to survive on the produce from their gardens. And, he concluded, when he left Oklahoma to go to California after high school, he looked up the evangelist and his cute daughter. They had a nice ranch house, a nice car, etc. My dad was *furious* but there was nothing, absolutely nothing you could tell the people back home. Oh, and the local pastor did the same thing. While Rev. Evangelist was preaching and raking in the dough in his church, Pastor was doing the same thing as a guest evangelist at another church somewhere else.

    My dad’s also the one who said that religion in America was like a river a mile wide and an inch deep.

  50. Talmidah wrote:

    Agreed, Darlene. I’d also call him a Marjoe:

    At least Marjoe came clean, and exposed the ugly underbelly of his profession. I don’t see MD ever doing that.

  51. Talmidah wrote:

    From what I’ve read about the way he pursued Grace when they were dating, Driscoll has *stalker* written all over him.

    Not if Grace was raised in a patriarchal household. Then Mark was good to go as long as he paid the "bride price".

    There was a Gib Martin who wrote or co-wrote some books that were published through LifeWay. One book was about romance and delved into Song of Sol. Does anyone know if that same Gib Martin was Grace's father?

  52. Nancy2 wrote:

    Talmidah wrote:

    Agreed, Darlene. I’d also call him a Marjoe:

    At least Marjoe came clean, and exposed the ugly underbelly of his profession. I don’t see MD ever doing that.

    Exactly, Nancy & Muslin. Here’s something to consider about Marjoe. He was groomed by his Mama at a young age to be a preacher. He really had no choice in the matter. His Mama paraded him around the Evangelist circuit, selling him as a Spirit-filled preacher at 5 years old. Apparently there was a market for that sort of thing in Pentecostal circles.

    Brainwashing takes some to get unhinged from. When Marjoe came to his senses, he exposed the scheming shenanigans of the Pentecostal Preaching Circuit. When I saw his documentary back in the 70’s, I was befuddled by how gullible Christians can be. Then I became one of those statistics, hoodwinked by a cult leader. It seems things really haven’t changed much on the “Christian” landscape these many years later.

  53. Mark Driscoll, according to various secular news outlets and Christian survivor blogs, was an abusive pastor. Driscoll has so many victims.

    Not only was Driscoll’s personal behavior towards people damaging (he would bully people, from what I read), but his teachings about gender, sex, marriage, etc., created a lot of pain and problems for women who went to his church.

    (Some of these women from his Mars Hill’s church had to enter into group therapy to un-learn and recover from Driscoll’s toxic teachings.)

    For years, I have watched many episodes of “Life Today,” which is normally hosted by James and Betty Robison (it is aired on TBN and other Christian networks, on a daily basis).

    James in particular will often turn to the camera in tears and weep over things like little girls being sold into human trafficking. He goes on and on about how much he cares for victims.

    It is therefore mind-boggling to me that Robison would then turn around and allow a spiritually abusive and sexist guy such as Mark Driscoll (who has had many victims) to come on to his television program and act like an innocent little dove – and no doubt to advertise a book or his new church.

    Driscoll is not a victim. He created victims. The Robisons should be more discriminating about who they allow on their program.

    The Robisons are on friendly terms with that blond, bloated-looking preacher from Dallas, from Gateway Church (forget his name).

    This bloated looking blondie pastor is often a guest on “Life Today,” where he hawks his own books.

    If I am remembering correctly, Rev. Bloated Blondie had Driscoll come on to the stage at his church a couple of years ago to lend him some credence.

    Maybe Rev. Bloated Blondie pulled some strings to get the Robisons to have Driscoll on their show?
    I cannot imagine under what other scenario that show would have a bully such as Driscoll on as a guest.

    The Robisons regularly appeal for funds from viewers to do things like get girls out of human trafficking, and to provide clean water for the poor in Africa.

  54. Root 66 wrote:

    Listening to his “Under the Bus” clip absolutely makes my skin crawl!! He is despicable beyond mere words, and a worker for the Kingdom of Darkness. It’s Amazing how Jesus’ model for leadership is the complete opposite of Driscoll’s. He doesn’t sound like a shepherd that would lay down his life for the sheep–no, he’d have “flattened lamb” after running over everyone! Perhaps Driscoll should have read the rest of the New Testament about the judgment that awaits those who causes one of the “least of these” to stumble. God help us if this is what the Bride of Christ has become!

    Would “flattened lamb” be lamb scallopine?

    Sorry…great post and excellent insights, but Lent is making me hungry.

  55. Getting back to Driscoll, I don't know how anyone could have endorsed the man after he preached that appalling, disgusting sermon on the Song of Solomon over in that church in Scotland. If I had been present during that sermon, I would have up and walked out and never returned to that church again. That no one stopped Driscoll, even as he delved deeper into his perverse interpretation of the text, is mind boggling. As a woman I would not have felt safe there.

    And to think Piper had the gall to say – after Driscoll's fall from Mars Hill – that he preached the gospel shows what kind of man he is. They're misogynists cloaked in sanctimonious garb.

  56. Ted wrote:

    After one paragraph of bragging, blaming, and Christianese jargon Mark Driscoll said, “There’s the whole story.”

    Right.

    I was amused that he said that right after mentioning the non disclosure agreement!

    Of course that isn’t the whole story!

  57. Daisy wrote:

    The Robisons regularly appeal for funds from viewers to do things like get girls out of human trafficking, and to provide clean water for the poor in Africa.

    Does anybody know where that money goes? What percentage of actually goes to help those in need?
    Rev. Bloated Blondie ………. Robert Morris?
    I can’t wait to see what you would call Steve Gaines! Ha!

  58. Nancy2 wrote:

    Does Driscoll have to don the Mickey Mouse t-shirt before he can see things?

    He’s traded in the hipster T-shirts for gradpa like jackets with leather patches on the sleeves.

    Driscoll even brought this up a year or two ago in an interview (I think in Christianity Today – I linked to it on this blog somewhere, over a year ago), because he was trying to re-brand himself as a “pastor to pastors.”

    He needed the older, wizened owl, old guy persona to do that, which meant he had to ditch the trendy t-shirts.

    “Look at me in my patched- elbow jackets, my pipe, reading glasses on the tip of my nose, eating a Werther’s Candy! I am so wise. Learn from me.”

  59. Nancy2 wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    The Robisons regularly appeal for funds from viewers to do things like get girls out of human trafficking, and to provide clean water for the poor in Africa.

    Does anybody know where that money goes? What percentage of actually goes to help those in need?

    Wow… that’s exactly what I was going to ask. Do the Robinson’s disclose their financial statements to the public? Are they above board and honest in their disclosure to their financial contibutors?

  60. Max wrote:

    I hope Sheila Walsh and Randy Robison somehow get wind of this TWW post and read the real story behind Driscoll’s rise and fall. They have just given the potty-mouth a national stage painting a picture of an anointed one and and rejection by his disciples.

    I just sent Ms. Walsh a tweet with a link to this blog post. Her Twitter handle is @SheilaWalsh
    I copied Dee on that Tweet. I just very nicely asked her to please read the blog post here.

    In all the time I’ve seen Ms. Walsh on that show, and a few others, she seems like the “real deal.”

    She’s been very transparent about her struggles in life when she is on TV, which I do admire. She seems like a genuinely nice person.

  61. Christiane wrote:

    What is so awful is that he published private details of their relationship which to me should have been kept private, as those details are sacred. Example: “Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her.”

    I’m pretty sure Driscoll admitted in a book, sermon, or blog post that he was not a virgin when he married Grace. I think he was fooling around prior to marriage – don’t remember if it was with her or another lady.

    So, if I’m remembering this right, Driscoll is being hypocritical. He’s upset his wife wasn’t a virgin on their wedding night – well, (if memory serves), neither was he!

  62. Max wrote:

    Could it be that ROBERT MORRIS is behind Driscoll’s appearance on Life Today?
    Morris is currently on Driscoll’s governing board at his new church in Arizona. At one time, Morris was a regular on Life Today and was known as James Robison’s pastor.

    Great minds think alike! I just said the same thing a post or two above, but I wrote my post before seeing your comments.

    Yes, “Morris” is his name. I forgot what it was in my posts.

  63. nmgirl wrote:

    When I was in high school, I po’d an SBC youth minister who was bragging about how many people were ‘saved’ at a revival. All I asked was ” Wouldn’t Jesus be happy with just one person?”

    You cannot possibly mean the same Jesus who compared himself to the Shepherd who would leave the 99 in search of the lost one? Nah. LOL.

  64. Nancy2 wrote:

    Does anybody know where that money goes? What percentage of actually goes to help those in need?
    Rev. Bloated Blondie ………. Robert Morris?
    I can’t wait to see what you would call Steve Gaines! Ha!

    I don’t know where their ministry donations go. I would like to think they are above-board and all funds go to the impoverished or whomever they are claiming to help.

    About Morris looking bloated.

    Morris, with his big, bloated head, reminds me of “Mr. Mackey” on South Park, the guy who wears his ties so tight, it makes his head inflate like a very large balloon.

    Video showing Mr. Mackey:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRMuH5iWusY

  65. I listened to a video of him and his wife discuss sex and the bible. It was so disgusting my 60 year old friend about fainted and I wanted to vomit! It was like listening to a porn novel. I had heard of Mars hill church but didn’t know anything about him until I heard his name looked him up that video popped up and all I could say was icky icky yuck yuck!!! Definitely doesn’t respect the sanctity of sex and marriage.

    Velour wrote:

    “And one last thing, I’m still angry at Mark Driscoll for coming to my daughter’s college, speaking to her Campus Crusade for Christ group, and pretending (that’s what I believe happened) to be asked a question about oral and anal sex. I heard a recording of his talk and wrote about it in this post from 2009 – Driscoll’s Sex Tips and the Tipping Point.” – Deb

    Mark Driscoll isn’t just sick, but sickening. (Loosely quoting attorney/child abuse advocate/ and author Andrew Vachss and what he says about enablers of sex abusers.)

  66. Daisy wrote:

    For years, I have watched many episodes of “Life Today,” which is normally hosted by James and Betty Robison (it is aired on TBN and other Christian networks, on a daily basis).

    James in particular will often turn to the camera in tears and weep over things like little girls being sold into human trafficking. He goes on and on about how much he cares for victims.

    It is therefore mind-boggling to me that Robison would then turn around and allow a spiritually abusive and sexist guy such as Mark Driscoll (who has had many victims) to come on to his television program and act like an innocent little dove – and no doubt to advertise a book or his new church.

    Driscoll is not a victim. He created victims. The Robisons should be more discriminating about who they allow on their program.

    AMEN!

  67. Velour wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    My response to Driscoll’s bovine defecation:
    https://youtu.be/kfdpcrOgUp4

    Good one, Todd!

    LOL, Todd! I also like what Judge Judy says: “Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.” She said her father used to say that and she even wrote a book with that title.

  68. Darlene wrote:

    Talmidah wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    … A chameleon that can make the system work for him.

    Agreed, Darlene. I’d also call him a Marjoe:

    https://archive.org/details/Marjoe.1972.Legendado

    Except that Margo came out of that Pentecostal Movement and exposed how phoney preachers milk the system. Driscoll is still milking the system.

    Right – and I thank God that Marjoe had the guts to leave and expose that garbage. He could have disappeared quietly into obscurity but chose to do a great thing.

  69. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes

    … My dad’s also the one who said that religion in America was like a river a mile wide and an inch deep.

    Amen. Marjoe did a great and courageous thing by simply choosing to tell the truth.

    I don’t doubt a word of your dad’s story. My grandmother used to tell me similar stories and I’ve had my own run-ins with rotten preachers aka crooks. What a stench.

  70. Nancy2 wrote:

    Talmidah wrote:

    Agreed, Darlene. I’d also call him a Marjoe:

    At least Marjoe came clean, and exposed the ugly underbelly of his profession. I don’t see MD ever doing that.

    Right on.

  71. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Would “flattened lamb” be lamb scallopine?

    Sorry…great post and excellent insights, but Lent is making me hungry.

    Hope you’re having a blessed Lent, my friend – and pesach starts next week, then Easter. I love this time of year.

  72. Christiane wrote:

    I think what passes between a husband and wife should be kept sacred, private. When one trashes the other publicly, it reflects more on the one doing the trashing than on the victim, the victim in this case being Grace. No one deserves that kind of abuse.

    Wise words for everyone. My heart breaks for his wife and everyone he has harmed.

  73. Talmidah wrote:

    From what I’ve read about the way he pursued Grace when they were dating, Driscoll has *stalker* written all over him.

    Yes!

  74. Daisy wrote:

    … James in particular will often turn to the camera in tears and weep over things like little girls being sold into human trafficking. He goes on and on about how much he cares for victims.

    Sometime in the mid-’80s I read an article someplace that a fella had written about Jimmy Swaggart. This man said that he had a satellite dish, one of those big honking things that would take up half of your yard.

    He said that he could watch the direct satellite feed for Swaggart’s show, before any editing, and that Swaggart would tape a week’s worth of shows – 5 – in a day. Like clockwork, at the same time for each show, Swaggart would turn on the waterworks toward the end while he practically begged for donations. This went on week after week, and was always the same.

    I remember his show and I don’t doubt this a bit. It all seemed perfectly timed and scripted and makes sense.

    I used to watch Robison too and can’t help but wonder if he does this as well.

  75. NJ wrote:

    Driscoll reminds me more of Sonny Corleone with his verbal crudities, though I’ve never heard of Marky actually beating anyone up.

    Nah, more like Joe Pesci in a Scorsese mob flick.

  76. Muff Potter wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    Driscoll reminds me more of Sonny Corleone with his verbal crudities, though I’ve never heard of Marky actually beating anyone up.

    Nah, more like Joe Pesci in a Scorsese mob flick.

    Tommy D. 🙂

  77. Talmidah wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:
    NJ wrote:
    Driscoll reminds me more of Sonny Corleone with his verbal crudities, though I’ve never heard of Marky actually beating anyone up.
    Nah, more like Joe Pesci in a Scorsese mob flick.
    Tommy D.

    Rodney Dangerfield, minus the jokes and laughs? Come to think of it, Driscoll does bear some physical resemblance to Dangerfield.
    And, then there’s Richard Pyror ……… Driscoll doesn’t look like him, but the language is very similar.

  78. Talmidah wrote:

    Sometime in the mid-’80s I read an article someplace that a fella had written about Jimmy Swaggart. This man said that he had a satellite dish, one of those big honking things that would take up half of your yard.

    He said that he could watch the direct satellite feed for Swaggart’s show, before any editing, and that Swaggart would tape a week’s worth of shows – 5 – in a day. Like clockwork, at the same time for each show, Swaggart would turn on the waterworks toward the end while he practically begged for donations. This went on week after week, and was always the same.

    I remember his show and I don’t doubt this a bit. It all seemed perfectly timed and scripted and makes sense.

    I used to watch Robison too and can’t help but wonder if he does this as well.

    I’m dating myself here, but when I was living in the co-op at university, we used to watch Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker every night after the news. Tammy Faye really knew how to turn on the waterworks.

    We stopped watching them when MTV came on the air in 1981. Because then we had actual choices.

  79. Nancy2
    … And, then there’s Richard Pyror ……… Driscoll doesn’t look like him, but the language is very similar.

    I’d take Richard Pryor over Driscoll any day. At least Richard Pryor was honest, from what I’ve seen.

  80. NJ wrote:

    still can’t get over those vests Driscoll now wears over his Oxford shirts.

    Remember Nash Bridges, the cop show with former Miami Vice star Don Johnson? His character always wore vests, partly to hide the girdle that masked Don’s middle-aged spread. Not that Mark would EVER do that. (And an image consultant might suggest I do the same thing!)

  81. According to the Better Business Bureau and Charity Navigator, Life Outreach International refuses to make their financial and charity information known. They do consider themselves an “organization of churches”, and not a charity.

    However, they have annual reports listed on their website: http://lifetoday.org/ways-to-give/financial-accountability/ and claim to comply with Evangelical Council for Accountability (ECFA) standards. They also say they release copies of audits on request.

    On paper, this looks fine to me. However, I wonder, if they are churches, do church staff salaries fall under “Ministries and Missions”?

  82. The moral of his story that I take away is, you can “do church” at home and “it’s OK.” Wouldn’t he be considered a NONE?

  83. JYJames wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    is the ‘audience’ that colludes with his abuse really a ‘Church’?
    I was thinking about this today. Personally, I stay away from casinos, bars, nightclubs, rock concerts with drugs, etc., as each of these venues feels like a toxic environment to me. I was wondering if a certain type of church is also toxic and a venue to be avoided.

    This got lost in moderation, however, I was still wondering about venues to avoid, even so-called churches, that may be toxic. Can a church be comparable to these other toxic venues?

  84. Divorce Minister wrote:

    bad theology MD taught harmed my first marriage even though I was never a member of his church

    There is no doubt that Driscoll’s aberrant teachings reached far beyond Mars Hill. I can take you to YRR church plants in my area that are “pastored” by Driscollites who still adore the man, who still drop his name in their sermons and promote his books.

    A line from your article “Driscoll commits the classic exegetical error known as eisegesis” essentially describes most of the preaching/teaching in New Calvinism. They take Biblical text out of context and impose their interpretations and ideas into and onto the text. The new reformers have no shame about distorting Scripture to support presuppositions, agendas, and biases of reformed theology. New Calvinism would not exist if it wasn’t for eisegesis.

  85. ishy wrote:

    On paper, this looks fine to me. However, I wonder, if they are churches, do church staff salaries fall under “Ministries and Missions”?

    I’m not absolutely sure, but I think they do ….. including transportation costs, hotels, etc.

  86. Daisy wrote:

    Driscoll is not a victim. He created victims. The Robisons should be more discriminating about who they allow on their program.

    I have absolutely no empathy for those currently supporting this clown & his circus. There’s enough information about his abuses and excesses.
    Those supporting him are like him. There’s no middle​ ground.
    We all know where the seed cash for his latest endeavor came from.
    Those supporting this garbage are just as bad including this TV program.
    All about fleecing the sheep.

  87. Talmidah wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Would “flattened lamb” be lamb scallopine?

    Sorry…great post and excellent insights, but Lent is making me hungry.

    Hope you’re having a blessed Lent, my friend – and pesach starts next week, then Easter. I love this time of year.

    Thank you and same to you!!

  88. Max wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote:

    bad theology MD taught harmed my first marriage even though I was never a member of his church

    There is no doubt that Driscoll’s aberrant teachings reached far beyond Mars Hill. I can take you to YRR church plants in my area that are “pastored” by Driscollites who still adore the man, who still drop his name in their sermons and promote his books.

    A line from your article “Driscoll commits the classic exegetical error known as eisegesis” essentially describes most of the preaching/teaching in New Calvinism. They take Biblical text out of context and impose their interpretations and ideas into and onto the text. The new reformers have no shame about distorting Scripture to support presuppositions, agendas, and biases of reformed theology. New Calvinism would not exist if it wasn’t for eisegesis.

    Sadly, they criticised others for doing this. Lack of insight into self, I suppose.

  89. @ Divorce Minister:

    I never knew you had that personal connection with Mars Hill, thanks for sharing. One of Driscoll, and Matt Chandler’s, calling cards is encouraging women to be disappointed in their husbands while promoting himself as the ideal. It’s sick and evil.

  90. Driscoll Attempts To Rewrite History of Mars Hill
    https://thouarttheman.org/2017/04/08/6283/

    The intro:

    Mark Driscoll recently appeared on a television program called “Life Today.” During the interview Driscoll, being the smooth manipulator that he is, attempts to rewrite the history of Mars Hill church wherein he would have us believe he is a victim, not the cause for the demise of Mars Hill.

  91. Talmidah wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Would “flattened lamb” be lamb scallopine?

    Sorry…great post and excellent insights, but Lent is making me hungry.

    Hope you’re having a blessed Lent, my friend – and pesach starts next week, then Easter. I love this time of year.

    As an Orthodox Christian we celebrate Pascha on Saturday evening into early Sunday morning. I love this time of year as well.

  92. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    I’m dating myself here, but when I was living in the co-op at university, we used to watch Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker every night after the news. Tammy Faye really knew how to turn on the waterworks.

    We stopped watching them when MTV came on the air in 1981. Because then we had actual choices.

    Even Twisted Sister six times every hour was preferable.

    (Though I used to keep the 24-hour Gene Scott channel on as background…)

  93. Nancy2 wrote:

    Rodney Dangerfield, minus the jokes and laughs? Come to think of it, Driscoll does bear some physical resemblance to Dangerfield.

    Now if he’d only Get No Respect for once…

  94. Talmidah wrote:

    He said that he could watch the direct satellite feed for Swaggart’s show, before any editing, and that Swaggart would tape a week’s worth of shows – 5 – in a day. Like clockwork, at the same time for each show, Swaggart would turn on the waterworks toward the end while he practically begged for donations. This went on week after week, and was always the same.

    Obviously before Swaggart got caught with a prostitute.

  95. Daisy wrote:

    The Robisons regularly appeal for funds from viewers to do things like get girls out of human trafficking, and to provide clean water for the poor in Africa.

    More like those Necessities for Ministry, Furtick Mansions and Private Jets.

  96. Darlene wrote:

    Here’s something to consider about Marjoe. He was groomed by his Mama at a young age to be a preacher. He really had no choice in the matter. His Mama paraded him around the Evangelist circuit, selling him as a Spirit-filled preacher at 5 years old. Apparently there was a market for that sort of thing in Pentecostal circles.

    It’s called The Child Evangelist, and I’ve seen and heard of some examples that really belong on South Park.

  97. Max wrote:

    He surely approves who comes on the show, whether he personally interviews them or not. As you note, Life Today needs to vet their guests better.

    Hi Max,
    As you correctly surmised James has 100% control on every aspect of his show. Life Outreach International is a 501(c)3 Religious Org (church) that was founded and is controlled by James and his wife Betty. They bring in $65M a year by soliciting donations for all kinds of causes like hungry children, kids with severe facial deformities, treating diseased children, building water wells and the new push is about freeing child sex slaves. That “ministry” is run by his daughter’s partner’s wife. The well ministry is owned by very close family friends. All are members of Gateway.
    .
    Despite telling his audience that their contributions will specifically buy shoes (he even holds up a pair of tiny crocs and weeps over the ringworm the kids will get without them), buy back a sex slave, build a water well, etc, every single episode features a super fast speaking 5 second exculpatory clause that says James can spend the money however he sees fits. Just like Kenneth Copeland. I guess people’s eyes are too filled with tears to read the fine print before giving him all that money. James films every episode in his own studio in Euless then broadcasts it to literally hundreds of stations all over the country and globe.
    .
    Perhaps you were not aware of this, but James is an Apostolic Elder of Gateway Church and was the man responsible for launching Robert Morris’ career. An appearance of Life Today is highly coveted, as virtually every single guest is selling their latest merchandise (books, dvds, cds etc). An appearance on this show translates into big sales.
    .
    As you may have noticed, Mark was not selling a product, per se. So why give him one of these highly coveted slots? Because Gateway Church planted Mark’s new church. James is merely doing the bidding of his church to rebuild Mark’s reputation and brand. This was not done out of ignorance. James prides himself on being one of the first men to give Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart a speaking gig after their falls. All of these men are disqualified from ministry, yet men like James Robison, Robert Morris and Jimmy Evans continue to prop up these disqualified men over and over, to the detriment of the public.
    .
    Mark currently collects tithes and offerings from his new TTC flock, yet he does not allow them to access their own sermons. He hoards them on his personal website and holds them back for months, then releases them to subscribers. So if a TTC member has to miss a week due to illness or emergency, well, tough luck. Big Daddy Mark has to make his cheeeeeze. Sheep schmeep. Let em starve.
    .
    Mark was officially declared to be disqualified by his own church planting org. He should not be pastoring anywhere. People like Robison are aiding and abetting this mercenary because it is in their own best interest. Robison wants to make sure no pastor can ever defrocked. Why? Well, why don’t you look at what he really does with that $65M a year, or what he personally did stumping for Trump on Trump’s campaign trail AFTER the vulgar tapes were released.
    .
    Robison vouched for Trump declaring him to be a Christian in good standing, despite Trump claiming he has never had a need to confess anything. He was also able to launch a major right wing media empire prior to this election that he promotes on and through Life Today. He is also President Trump’s primary spiritual advisor.
    .
    This isn’t a vetting issue. Robison knows exactly who he is promoting on his show. Any man who would use money intended to go to the worst off in the entire planet to fuel his own political ambitions would have no shame in propping up an unethical man like Driscoll who basically took money from his own flock to personally enrich himself and buy his own fame. To James, Mark’s lack of ethics and compassion aren’t a bug, they’re a feature.

  98. This is interesting John Piper discusses an “exorcism” of some young lady. I may be wrong and this is just my opinion, but I dont buy this story. It does discuss some students not letting this “possessed” person leave the room they had her in.

    https://youtu.be/0SK07TY1uh0

  99. ‘We had a governance war at the church that went eight years behind the scenes over who’s in charge and how things play out, and so at the end we had 67 elders in 15 locations in 5 states, a large percentage of whom I had never met, and they wanted to have independent local churches and we were one large church in many locations so there was an eight-year battle that finally went public the last year. It was very painful for everyone involved, especially the wonderful, dear generous amazing people that served and gave and made it all happen. And so the governing board in authority over me invited us to continue, and we prayed about it and talked about it as a family and felt like we heard from the Lord, and I resigned and left without uh… Didn’t have an opportunity to say good-bye to the people, so I want to just let them know how much I love them and appreciate them and wish I would have had that opportunity, and we took some time off just to heal up. I signed a non-disclosure agreement, you’re not gonna talk about it which was fair and reasonable and I agree with and just decided to spend time together as a family, to heal up, to meet with wise counsel, to learn what we could learn, and to see what the Lord had for us in the next season of our life…. There’s the whole story.’

    This is a dreadfully dishonest or deluded account of what happened at Mars Hill. In particularly, the non-disclosure agreement imposed on many staff for fear financial penalty when they were asked to leave has presented any chance ‘truth and reconciliation’ from occurring. Pontius Pilate couldn’t have done better. Essentially, the core leadership were shown to be lacking in integrity on a number of fronts and the people who attended Mars Hill showed their integrity by leaving to go to other churches. Mark does not seem to have learned anything from his experience at Mars Hill, not least about the corrosive and damaging effect of using spin and PR distortion to preserve his own reputation at the expense of other people. A truly selfish account from someone who has done so much to damage the reputation of the Church in the USA.

  100. Stan wrote:

    promoting himself as the ideal.

    the ‘celebrity’ aspect of these men is raised to new heights when they promote THEMSELVES as the objects of honor as ‘ideal’ leaders …. and they don’t even have the grace of innocence of the poor confused donkey in Chesterton’s famous Palm Sunday poem:

    The Donkey, by GK Chesterton

    When fishes flew and forests walked,
    And figs grew upon thorn,
    Some moment when the moon was blood,
    Then surely I was born.

    With monstrous head and sickening cry,
    And ears like errant wings,
    The devil’s walking parody
    Of all four-footed things.

    The tattered outlaw of the earth,
    Of ancient, crooked will;
    Starve, scourge, deride me: I am dumb,
    I keep my secret still.

    Fools! For I also had my hour;
    One far fierce hours and sweet:
    There was a shout about my ears,
    And palms before my feet.

    The next time one of these ‘celebrity’ pastors brays about his ‘ideal’ personage or his ‘visions’, imagine him wearing donkey ears as the crowd cheers and lays their dollar bill before him ….

  101. A most repulsive, unbiblical false teacher selling a false gospel. And he has a perverted mind, IMO, and a filthy, filthy mouth that overflows from what’s on his mind. This person is an instant salmonella, just seeing him, and instant diarrhea hearing him, IMO. Ugh!!!!!

  102. Good Lord! I can’t get away from Driscoll this weekend!!

    I was flipping through the local TV channels this morning, and there he was! Preaching at a mega-Assembly of God church in Springfield, MO (James River Church). Yep – there he was preaching on marriage (contract vs. covenant) … on stage with an older appearance, clean shaven, with his hair combed, and a more gentle (no potty-mouth) preaching style. He continues to make his unrepentant comeback, using whatever gullible pulpit he can find. It’s as if the hierarchical elite controlling the American pulpit have declared Driscoll now “clean” and “restored” … and the pew peons just need to live with their anointed decisions about who they expose us to!

    Oh … and get this … Driscoll is a featured speaker at James River Church’s “Stronger Men’s Conference” later this month in Springfield, MO. http://strongermen.org/

    The conference is promoting Driscoll as a “world class communicator … with a skillful mix of bold presentation, accessible teaching, and unrelenting compassion for those who are hurting the most …” I guess they didn’t check with the great multitude of those who are hurting the most from his past ministry failures. Or perhaps they do know about his potty-mouth, plagiarism, and throwing dissenting elders under the bus … and just don’t give a big whoop what the rest of the church thinks since Driscoll continues to draw a crowd and mammon.

    Madness!!

  103. Talmidah wrote:

    Easter. I love this time of year.

    Me, too, Talmidah.

    Imagine my great surprise when I turned on TV to find Driscoll preaching at a local church. I suspect it was taped at an earlier date, but they aired him on Palm Sunday!
    See my upstream comment about this.

  104. Darlene wrote:

    A chameleon that can make the system work for him.

    Almost my exact words to my wife this morning after watching Driscoll on TV this morning “preaching” at a mega-Assembly of God church in my area. In his prior life, he mocked Assembly of God folks – he has now changed colors … whatever it takes to deceive.

  105. Shauna wrote:

    icky icky yuck yuck!!! Definitely doesn’t respect the sanctity of sex and marriage.

    If sex sells in the world, it will sell in some corners of the American church. Driscoll knew that and cashed in.

  106. Talmidah wrote:

    pesach starts next week, then Easter. I love this time of year.

    All nature celebrates the renewal of Creation at this time of year. Beautiful celebration of life!

  107. When I worked at a Bible College my boss ( a former pastor) told me ” if a pastor is a good speaker, that hides a multitude of his sins.” I questioned further and he said people like a good speaker they don’t care about his character really. My husband has been a pastor now for over thirty years and I always remember that comment made long ago, because it is so true.

  108. dee wrote:

    Deb

    Pete Wilson is playing the victim just like Driscoll. Poor me!

    https://www.facebook.com/PastorPeteWilson

    Wow. Why is that people who screw up big, feel the need to tell others how to live their life. He talks about being embarrassed and feeling shame, but wouldn’t those feelings preclude you from yapping about it on social media? Blech.

  109. @ LT:

    I heard a beautiful Rabbi from Nazareth say something to the effect of:

    …They have their reward…

  110. something about the facial expression in that photo (in the blue plaid vest).

    it’s mask-like.

    reminds me of the times i’ve seen someone with very conflicted emotions (disappointed, frightened, anxious, angry, etc.) don a full-face smile for PR purposes.

    it’s not altogether convincing, because something contradictory from behind the face shows through.

  111. I had some college prof somewhere and sometime or other who used to keep talking about ‘pearls’ which one could pick up from lectures, books, wherever. The lasting value of takeaway pearls.

    So I a heard pearl this morning at church. What made it pearly was the setting in a homily which was part of an elaborate episcopal palm sunday liturgy preached to our deplorably privileged congregation. Father S enjoined us to not yield to ‘sentimentality or cliché’ about any of the issues surrounding any part of the easter story. And then he elaborated a tad on that.

    There is a tendency to slide into sentimentality and cliché when the stories become too familiar and when we trivialize, even unwittingly, the horror and the power and the victory of the work of Lord Christ at calvary and beyond. For example, while Father was reading the description of the mob scene in Matthew I was thinking about mobs we have seen recently and how terrifying a mob can be, and Jesus refused to offer a defense, just refused. How does one face down a mob while refusing to offer a defense, in the face of imminent execution? And yet I had heard that tale so much I hardly any more thought about the pure raw courage and self control it takes to do that-trivialized it based on familiarity.

    So I got a pearl: beware sentimentality and clichés.

  112. lynn wrote:

    When I worked at a Bible College my boss ( a former pastor) told me ” if a pastor is a good speaker, that hides a multitude of his sins.”

    “THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!
    THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”

  113. elastigirl wrote:

    it’s mask-like.

    Botox and filler. Not sure about surgery, but possible. Or maybe Photoshop. The vest is almost as bad as the Mickey Mouse shirt.

  114. I wish I could make people “out there” understand that a lot of these men in Christian power think lay people and the people they “serve” or anyone else not in or near their position, are idiots. And they treat you as such. And talk about you in that way behind closed doors. And make decisions and form and communicate narratives to each other about you that insinuates and assumes as such.

    You can see it in their material as well. A lot of their books and training sessions and pastor conferneces have a lot of contempt for “the sheep”.

    It is sometimes subtle but if you hear and sit with it enough, it will start showing itself. Like one of those “Magic Eye” posters, behind all the rhetoric and measured cadence that seems “Scriptural” and just discussions of “theology” – if you focus on it long enough it will pop out and you won’t be able to unsee it. It was there all along.

  115. emily honey wrote:

    You can see it in their material as well. A lot of their books and training sessions and pastor conferneces have a lot of contempt for “the sheep”.

    You are absolutely correct. It’s not even subtle anymore. All of the “reformed” sites, such as Ligonier, Desiring God, TGC, Al Mohler, Tim Challies, Founders, Monogerism, 9Marks, you name it, post endless articles on how to think, how not to think, how to act, how not to act, what to believe, what not to believe, etc. ad nauseum. There are only two possible conclusions: 1) the followers of these “leaders” are idiots who cannot think for themselves, and/or 2) people go to their sites merely out of curiosity or comic relief. I follow some of them pretty religiously just to see what they are up to. Maybe it’s people like me who are making those sites appear popular based on the number of hits.

  116. Ken F wrote:

    I follow some of them pretty religiously just to see what they are up to.

    good move ….

    I would question the ‘leadership’ skills of any group that micro-manages to the extent of the neo-Cal/male headship crowd ……. the ‘leadership’ are trying to emphasize their ‘authority’ by the heavy handedness, but it is obvious from their many ‘shoulds/should not; musts/must nots’ as well as the vicious ‘discipline’ they put people through who question their ‘authority’ that these leaders have no clue how to lead responsibly as servants of the Word.
    They are banking on ‘power’ of the kind this world uses; not the kind of power the Holy Spirit activates which is far from destructive and infinitely more powerful than that of this world

  117. Ken F wrote:

    All of the “reformed” sites,

    Just to clarify, I put “Reformed” in quotes based on an earlier thread indicating Reformed does not equal New-Calvinist. If there is a difference, the New-Calvinists are not aware. For example, this recent link from Monergism is a list of “Reformed Podcasts” that includes all the usual New-Calvinist suspects: https://www.monergism.com/blog/reformed-podcasts.

  118. emily honey wrote:

    I wish I could make people “out there” understand that a lot of these men in Christian power think lay people and the people they “serve” or anyone else not in or near their position, are idiots. And they treat you as such. And talk about you in that way behind closed doors. And make decisions and form and communicate narratives to each other about you that insinuates and assumes as such.

    You can see it in their material as well. A lot of their books and training sessions and pastor conferneces have a lot of contempt for “the sheep”.

    http://i1.wp.com/www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/lamb-thoughts.jpg

    It is sometimes subtle but if you hear and sit with it enough, it will start showing itself. Like one of those “Magic Eye” posters, behind all the rhetoric and measured cadence that seems “Scriptural” and just discussions of “theology”.

    Gentlmanly discussions in Gentlemanly cadence from Gentleman Theologians(TM), of course.
    http://i1.wp.com/www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/the-theologians.jpg

  119. elastigirl wrote:

    something about the facial expression in that photo (in the blue plaid vest).

    it’s mask-like.

    His Angel of Light Mask needs some more fitting?

    I’m waiting for his eyes to get the “Predator Stare” like Charles Manson & David Miscavage.

  120. Off-topic.

    There are many prayer requests over on E-Church for those who have time to pray for people and needs.

    Thank you!

  121. Velour wrote:

    he ordered be excommunicated from Mars Hill Church and the firing of

    After watching the videos and MD’s pronouncements of generous forgiveness for himself, because, after all, that is what Jesus is all about …

    Does anyone else see the contradiction in MD’s own quick judgments of others: kick them off the bus, run over them, leave them in the dust, don’t let them on the bus, etc.

  122. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    “I’m waiting for his eyes to get the “Predator Stare” like Charles Manson & David Miscavage.”
    +++++++++++++

    i know that stare. or that look.

    saw it at an optometrist appt when i picked up my glasses. the ‘technician’ adjusted he glasses, polished the lenses, i tried them on, looked at him for him to make sure they fit my face right.

    oh my goodness….. what i saw in his eyes….. don’t know if i can even describe it — something like “i see you, i’m seeing in to you, i will conquer you” — but much more threatening than that. shivers. somehow the eyes of a very blank face communicated this.

    saw it at church during communion, too. leaders stood at the front with ‘the elements’, people went up to get their portion from leaders. i took my ‘bread’ & ‘wine’, made brief eye contact with the leader and a friendly smile. he didn’t return the smile. the look in his eyes…. again, hard to describe — very threatening — it was like he was saying with his eyes, “you better watch it, or i’m going to k|ll you.”

  123. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    “the “Predator Stare”
    +++++++++++

    there’s such thing as a celebrity pastor stare. i went to an enormous church nearby not long ago. after the service, he was in the lobby chatting. the small group i was with was chatting with him. he had this perma-smile, eyes and facial muscles sort of fixed (as opposed to responding to the moment).

    my take was that he is “on” so much, that this simply his unconscious behavior habit.

    but i thought, this is ridiculous. that church should get to this point.

  124. elastigirl wrote:

    i know that stare. or that look.

    Me too.

    I saw a look in the eyes of my former SIL once that scared the mess out of me. He looked at me, or right through me, gave no indication that he even knew there was a person there, but the scary part was that the look in the eyes looked like there was not a person behind the eyes.

    I have seen unconscious people with their eyes open; that was not it. I have seen dead people with their eyes open. This was not that. I have watched people hallucinate; not it. There was absolutely nothing that looked like anything alive behind the eyes. Maximum creepy. I have never seen the eyes of somebody during an absence seizure-so maybe it might be like that, I have no idea.

  125. @ elastigirl:

    “celebrity pastor stare”
    +++++++++++++

    or else it was “Yes, I really am all that. (i feel your adulation and i’m loving it)

  126. @ okrapod:

    “like there was not a person behind the eyes.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    yes. with the optometrist asst., that describes it. totally impersonal. but no less threatening.

    not so much with the church leader. it was more like condensed hate. very personal. and very threatening.

  127. @ LT:

    Keep up the good fight. Expose them for what they are. If there’s enough regular folks who are not taken in by these mountebanks, maybe we can get the financial disclosure laws (501-c3) changed so that they can no longer hide their ill-gotten wealth under the guise of ‘religious freedom’.

  128. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    “I’m waiting for his eyes to get the “Predator Stare” like Charles Manson & David Miscavage.”
    +++++++++++++

    i know that stare. or that look.

    It’s supposed to be a characteristic of psychopaths.

  129. elastigirl wrote:

    my take was that he is “on” so much, that this simply his unconscious behavior habit.

    Like the Tragedian in The Great Divorce — he had worn the mask for so long that the mask had become his face, so long that NOTHING was left under the mask.

  130. JYJames wrote:

    After watching the videos and MD’s pronouncements of generous forgiveness for himself, because, after all, that is what Jesus is all about …

    Some Are More Equal Than Others, Comrades, and I AM THE MOST EQUAL OF ALL!

    Does anyone else see the contradiction in MD’s own quick judgments of others: kick them off the bus, run over them, leave them in the dust, don’t let them on the bus, etc.

    http://i0.wp.com/www.nakedpastor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/achievement.jpg

  131. As I have gotten older, I have gotten to where I cannot stand the Christian celebrity culture. Stars interviewing other stars, promoting their books, music and other materials is just so opposite of the way of the cross and self-denial. I very much want all the celebrities to go away. I do not want to listen to their music or read their books. I cannot stand the shameless self-promotion and self-serving attitudes. They are an unrighteous clique who treat themselves as superior to the common man. May all the shameless selfish ambition end! End of rant…

  132. elastigirl wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    “like there was not a person behind the eyes.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    yes. with the optometrist asst., that describes it. totally impersonal. but no less threatening.
    not so much with the church leader. it was more like condensed hate. very personal. and very threatening.

    Wow…all this talk about human-less, eye stares is frightening. What comes to mind for me are certain serial killers. They died long ago – figuratively speaking – and all that remains is a being without empathy, compassion, love, kindness, etc. More like a robot made of flesh. A person in administration while I was teaching, and did everything in his power to get me fired – even blatantly lying – had those kind of stark, cold eyes. Every time he came into my classroom, my heart would race as I was trying to control an anxiety attack.

  133. Deb wrote:

    Driscoll is being resurrected

    It appears that the next go around he plans to be a Charismatic Calvinist. After making inroads into SBC life via Acts 29 church plants, he will now start whittling away at the AOG denomination. New Calvinism within SBC is now in good hands with Matt Chandler who replaced him on the Acts 29 throne and, of course, Al Mohler. Driscoll’s appearance at the upcoming strong man conference indicates he still prefers the macho-man gospel.

  134. Max wrote:

    The conference is promoting Driscoll as a “world class communicator … with a skillful mix of bold presentation, accessible teaching, and unrelenting compassion for those who are hurting the most …”

    You know, when I was picketing Mark Driscoll, I’d go over to a nearby restaurant, eat breakfast and watch his show so I’d know when he’d stopped preaching and I could catch the people leaving. I was never impressed by his preaching. Never. Maybe I am just too demanding. But all these guys they say are good preachers, good communicators–I am so unimpressed. In Driscoll’s case, I think it was because I, a woman, was not really his audience. His audience is really the men in his church.

  135. This is off topic but not sure where else to put it. Saeed Abedini is running amok against Franklin Graham on his Facebook page.

  136. emily honey wrote:

    These two interviews about Mars Hill came out in the past month or so if people have not been made aware of them:
    https://player.fm/series/pastor-with-no-answers
    Episode 74 and Episode 81.
    The interviews feature two Mars Hill women who were in prominent leadership positions in the church alongside their husbands..sharing their story of what they experienced behind the scenes and how they have been healing and processing everything. They also both go into how the environment and gender theology effected them as women. I was really impressed with both of them and how they articulated and presented everything. So much good stuff in both!!
    It seemed like there are more women who will be interviewed and featured in the future?

    I have listened to both now.

    Jen Schmidt’s testimony is powerful. “Angry, forceful men at Mars Hill were adored and embraced, and emotional, mouthy women were not… mouthy, strike that from the record! Smart, outspoken, thinking, emotional women were not.”

    Now Tricia Wilkerson is married to Mike Wilkerson, who is now associated with “Redemption Groups”, and TWW archives cover these: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/06/22/bent-myer-speaks-out-about-redemption-groups-at-mark-driscolls-mars-hill/. Now, this organization promotes and licenses the practice to any church that wants to incorporate it. I know this well because my previous “gospel-centered” PCA church did this, and this church is considered to be one of PCA’s flagships. In the podcast, she claims to be an egalitarian now and “run” it with Mike, although there is no sign of her as a leader on https://redemptiongroups.com/. My ultimate point being, she is financially vested in the same idea promoted by everyone in the TGC-sphere since the collapse: Mark Driscoll’s doctrine was correct, but he was a poor church administrator. She really does not sound like someone who has been hurt the way Mrs. Schmidt did, there was proud peppering of Christianese, and I don’t think her analysis of Mars Hill and Driscoll’s ideas was consistent. It was a weird listen and I’M NOT BUYING IT. However, if it’s worth a listen, it’s because of her account of how many affairs and divorces have happened among ex-Mars Hill members.

  137. Max wrote:

    New Calvinists preach to men – they will tell you that.

    Wonder if this is why some in the SBC have embraced and support him?

  138. mot wrote:

    Max wrote:

    New Calvinists preach to men – they will tell you that.

    Wonder if this is why some in the SBC have embraced and support him?

    The only SBCers that embraced Driscoll were the YRRs … they loved his macho-man teaching and potty-mouth preaching style (nothing to have to live up to). Mohler and the more sophisticated New Calvinists held him at a distance. His legacy lives on within SBC via church plants that have dual Acts 29 & SBC affiliation (Matt Chandler spearheads that program now). Before his fall, Driscoll inspired numerous Driscollites who will haunt the SBC for years to come.

  139. Mara wrote:

    He was all about his own personal eisegesis and completely lacking in any thoughtful exegesis.

    There has been an outbreak of that in New Calvinism.

  140. I’ve never quite figured out why someone would “preach to men” – any hunter, farmer or other population biologist can tell you that population increase is completely dependent on the number of females. If a farmer wants more calves, it ain’t bulls he buys!

  141. okrapod wrote:

    the scary part was that the look in the eyes looked like there was not a person behind the eyes.

    I saw that look in the eye of a sociopath that casual “friends” thought was a sweet little lamb. Saw a cold as ice look in the eye of a pastor that was frightening because I had never seen it before I saw it that first time.

    Driscoll’s smile in that picture looks to me like “You’re buying this, right? Right??”

  142. emily honey wrote:

    You can see it in their material as well. A lot of their books and training sessions and pastor conferneces have a lot of contempt for “the sheep”.

    You are so right, but people would never believe it. The really fun thing is that when you actually confront them with facts, they do not know what to do because all they have been taught is to repeat a script. I am being totally serious and I am talking about persons with advanced degrees who are clearly not educated in the actual text. I think the point of the conferences is to continually convince one another that they do have the right answers and also to persuade one another that therefore it is unnecessary for any of them to entertain any questions from anyone else or to ask any questions themselves.

  143. @ GreekEpigraph:

    “I’ve never quite figured out why someone would “preach to men””
    +++++++++++++++++

    yes, when logic and reason are applied it is very silly.

    as to why Matt Chandler, MD, & co. ‘preach to men’ and feel so good about it as to advertise it, a few things come to mind:

    1. ego problems (inflated egos, or anemic & insecure egos). thus, #2:

    2. it makes them feel powerful.

    -they need to be the hero
    -they institute a hierarchy and they are at the top
    -it’s pleasurable knowing there are inferiors beneath you
    -they believe God wants it this way, and that God wants them at the top (that has to feel good!)
    -they create a men only club, and they are of necessity the alpha male (that has to feel good!)

    3. they are afraid of women

    -they don’t want to compete with women for opportunities for fear of women surpassing them in ability, skill, and smarts, thus highlighting their own inadequacies; better to reserve all the power for men, in particular for the pastor himself

    4. they are terrified of being weak

    -if women have power, they feel weak
    -perhaps they see woman as mother-figures, and it is intolerable to return to being a little boy again. perhaps they’ve worked very hard to finally be a man, and that means no woman will ever again tell them what to do.

    **BOTTOM LINE: because of 1-4, best practice is for women to be invisible.

    -they get to pretend they’re not even there.

  144. Leslie wrote:

    This is off topic but not sure where else to put it. Saeed Abedini is running amok against Franklin Graham on his Facebook page.

    What do you mean?

    Franklin Graham has enabled Saeed.

  145. @ Gram3:

    “I think the point of the conferences is to continually convince one another that they do have the right answers and also to persuade one another that therefore it is unnecessary for any of them to entertain any questions from anyone else or to ask any questions themselves.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    it seems that deep down inside they must be terrified.

    terrified of being inadequate, of being wrong, of appearing weak, of being weak, of coming up short in anyone’s estimation including their own…

    is that what’s behind all this?? being so frightened and insecure?

  146. Talmidah wrote:

    From what I’ve read about the way he pursued Grace when they were dating, Driscoll has *stalker* written all over him.

    Yes, the some of the stories he tells of their dating years – YIKES. I remember listening to sermon podcasts where he told a story about a time when Grace drove herself to college, approximately 5 hours away and forgot to call him and let him know she arrived safely. Since this was before cell phones, he promptly drove 5 hours to make sure she arrived and then turned around to drive back home. When I first heard him tell that, I remember thinking, “that’s messed up and a huge red flag of a controller”, but I’m sure she was too young to recognize that. Thinking back on myself when I was college aged, I MIGHT have been flattered and thought, “that guy really loves me a lot.”

  147. M. Joy wrote:

    Since this was before cell phones, he promptly drove 5 hours to make sure she arrived and then turned around to drive back home. When I first heard him tell that, I remember thinking, “that’s messed up and a huge red flag of a controller”, but I’m sure she was too young to recognize that.

    Or the time that Mark Driscoll showed up at Grace’s college dorm and said to the guys that Grace was all his and was menacing to them. What.A.Nut.Case.

    I think of threat assessment Gavin de Becker and his book The Gift of Fear. “Men who can’t take ‘no’ for an answer choose women who can’t say ‘no’.”

  148. @ Mr. Jesperson:

    i’m with you.

    continuing to go to church became intolerable.

    church = a celebrity christian franchise. the music, the sermons, the structure, the small groups, the topics, the study guides, the lingo…. all of it straight from the celebrity christians.

    and then there’s Right Now Media to ooze in and cover over anything that got skipped.

    i’m free now! celebrity christians are of zero consequence to me. (at least i hope so)

  149. elastigirl wrote:

    is that what’s behind all this?? being so frightened and insecure?

    Like any group of people, there is a mixture. Good, bad, frightened, bold, sincere, fake, foolish, you name it.

  150. Daisy wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    What is so awful is that he published private details of their relationship which to me should have been kept private, as those details are sacred. Example: “Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her.”

    I’m pretty sure Driscoll admitted in a book, sermon, or blog post that he was not a virgin when he married Grace. I think he was fooling around prior to marriage – don’t remember if it was with her or another lady.
    So, if I’m remembering this right, Driscoll is being hypocritical. He’s upset his wife wasn’t a virgin on their wedding night – well, (if memory serves), neither was he!

    Absolutely. This was a personal, painful, private matter. No loving husband would have written the things he did about Grace in Real Marriage. The story you refer to is where he claims God gave him a vision of her past sin. If I recall correctly, she was pregnant with their first child and he was yelling at her about a sin she committed with a boy in HIGH SCHOOL. So here’s Grace, pregnant and crying while he’s informing her he would have never married her if he had known. WHAT. A. JERK.

    He states in Real Marriage that both he and Grace were not virgins when they first met, so he had a lot of nerve to put a guilt trip on her when he hadn’t kept himself sexually pure either.

    I’m rather disgusted that he still has a following. The evidence for his abusive practices is easy to find. At this point, if a person doesn’t have enough discernment to see through his facade, they deserve him.

  151. Velour wrote:

    What do you mean?
    Franklin Graham has enabled Saeed.

    Franklin Graham may have enabled Saeed, but Saeed on his Facebook is coming down hard on Graham because Saeed thinks Graham should have basically given him a job. I’d also note that he’s also complaining about Calvary Chapel pastors who fundraised in his name for a house for his family while he was imprisoned. Saeed says he’s not seen the money and says the press is asking him about it. Saeed also claims that the Calvary Chapel pastor who did the fundraising is suing him. (For what, I have no idea. A quick Google search indicated nothing.)

    Personally, what I got out of the ranting and raving on Saeed’s Facebook is that I hope Naghmeh and the children are in a safe place. It looked to me like Saeed was losing it.

  152. Leslie wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Check out Saeeds Facebook. Things are getting ugly.

    Whoa. What a circus. That thread is so long, I don’t have time to read through all the comments. Seems to me like the summary is: it was all good as long as Franklin was writing Saeed checks, but now that the money flow is cut off, Saeed’s mad because he knows Franklin lives a life of obscene wealth and won’t share anymore.

  153. elastigirl wrote:

    i’m free now! celebrity christians are of zero consequence to me. (at least i hope so)

    Enjoy! TWW is really the only place I ever hear about these clowns. In my day to day life, not a peep.
    I did some informal polling with friends & coworkers, they’ve never heard of a Driscoll or Piper (except for the wrestler, Rowdy Roddy).
    They are only legends in their own minds.

  154. Max wrote:

    Oh … and get this … Driscoll is a featured speaker at James River Church’s “Stronger Men’s Conference” later this month in Springfield, MO. http://strongermen.org/
    The conference is promoting Driscoll as a “world class communicator

    Yep. I posted about that a few days ago on an earlier thread.

    IMO, nobody should be hiring Driscoll to appear at any Christian conferences or asking him to appear on their Christian TV shows. He seems to give off all the traits the Bible says belong to a false teacher, or wolf in sheep’s clothing.

  155. M. Joy wrote:

    Whoa. What a circus.

    I think he also wanted Graham to arrange a meeting with the President.
    In the latest post he’s tearing into his ex-wife and ex-pastor and another pastor who supposedly raised a bunch of dough which Saeed never saw. Oh — and he’s an apostle. Facebook friends are starting to suggest he take a time out and get some help.

  156. Leslie wrote:

    This is off topic but not sure where else to put it. Saeed Abedini is running amok against Franklin Graham on his Facebook page.

    Can you elaborate? Under which posts is he posting? Is he angry?
    I just went to FG’s facebook page and have skimmed over a few of the comment threads but don’t see anything by S. Abedini.

  157. @ Daisy:
    Oh sorry, you meant on his own Facebook page not on FG’s page.

    Okay, I just found his post about FG where he says (in part):

    We as persecuted church and Christian always have been used with famous and rich Pastors and Preachers who used us for fundraising and recently because of special media attention on me some of them tried to show themselves as saviors of the persecuted churches and me which it wasn’t true and right but their own benefit.

    One of theses pastors is Franklin Graham
    Who has about 1000,000 $ salary and so many planes and private jets and every time he flies his gas price is just 10,000$ means tides of 300 teachers with 3000$ salaries and he flies a lot with his jets.

  158. M. Joy wrote:

    Whoa. What a circus. That thread is so long, I don’t have time to read through all the comments. Seems to me like the summary is: it was all good as long as Franklin was writing Saeed checks, but now that the money flow is cut off, Saeed’s mad because he knows Franklin lives a life of obscene wealth and won’t share anymore.

    You’re not kidding. He sounds like he’s angry that FG is not giving him money any more.

    I am still skimming down his post. Here is part of it:

    by Saeed, on his Facebook page:

    A week after I got released and Franklin Graham welcomed me home (because of the huge international media attention on me he badly wanted to be involve) he knew I don’t have any place to go but he left me alone in Boise until I was forced to call him to ask money to rent a place .

    When all cameras and social media attention were gone in my life, all the famous pastors and lawyers were gone too, and just a week after my freedom, I saw myself so alone with my family while still news were talking about me.

    During the whole last 1/5 year, I asked Franklin Graham to help me to find a job to pay my bills but he didn’t and he always gave me the worse and lowest he could.

  159. Daisy wrote:

    Leslie wrote:
    This is off topic but not sure where else to put it. Saeed Abedini is running amok against Franklin Graham on his Facebook page.
    Can you elaborate? Under which posts is he posting? Is he angry?
    I just went to FG’s facebook page and have skimmed over a few of the comment threads but don’t see anything by S. Abedini.

    I just got some information on Facebook about it from Julie Anne at Spiritual Sounding Board: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2017/04/09/saeed-abedinis-strange-online-behavior/

  160. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    Personally, what I got out of the ranting and raving on Saeed’s Facebook is that I hope Naghmeh and the children are in a safe place. It looked to me like Saeed was losing it.

    Got it, Mirele. Thanks for the info.

    Yes, Saeed looks like he’s losing it and his ex-wife (are they divorced yet?) and children should take action steps to be safe given this latest meltdown.

  161. My eyes were playing tricks on me. I glanced at the title of this post this morning and my brain read, “Driscoll Giving the Public a Black Eye.”

    “Back” turned to “black” and moved places.
    Then the brain suggested the rest cause the brain knows that such a statement isn’t that far off from the truth. I think Driscoll would love the idea of giving the public a black eye.

  162. Velour wrote:

    And one last thing, I’m still angry at Mark Driscoll for coming to my daughter’s college, speaking to her Campus Crusade for Christ group, and pretending (that’s what I believe happened) to be asked a question about oral and anal sex.

    This has always been a red flag for me. It’s not that I’m a prude, and I think college kids definitely need some straight talk on sex. However, there is this little thing called propriety. Sex talk in chapel is inappropriate. When I see a “public speaker” who doesn’t understand these kinds of boundaries, it is a signal to me that they may have significant psychological issues, including a lack of empathy.

  163. Saeed’s mask is coming off.
    Ha! Sounds like Saeed should seek help from Mark Driscoll, and take some lessons from him.

  164. elastigirl wrote:

    is that what’s behind all this?? being so frightened and insecure?

    I think its all about money for the people putting them on, and adulation that they might want (narcissists maybe?).

    For the people attending, well, sometimes its a paid vacation. I don’t know what they get mentally out of it. I pretty much don’t go to conferences that are not work mandated 🙂

  165. M. Joy wrote:

    I remember listening to sermon podcasts where he told a story about a time when Grace drove herself to college, approximately 5 hours away and forgot to call him and let him know she arrived safely. Since this was before cell phones, he promptly drove 5 hours to make sure she arrived and then turned around to drive back home. When I first heard him tell that, I remember thinking, “that’s messed up and a huge red flag of a controller”

    Wow that is weird!

  166. Lea wrote:

    I don’t know what they get mentally out of it.

    I don’t either, but I have a thought about what people get out of theological systems like the neo-cals are offering. I think people want answers to lots of things but for various reasons they want to or have to turn to the back of the math textbook and look up the answers rather than learning how to solve the problems, and it looks to me like teaching which claims to be authoritative (specific word) is like looking it up in the back of the book.

    And I think that sometimes when protestants say ‘the bible says’ and sometimes when catholics say ‘the church says’ they are looking it up in the back of the book instead of engaging and processing the matter at hand. Not always, but it sure seems to be sometimes what goes on.

    I don’t much blame non-professionally religious folks for this all that much. We all have lives to live and limited time and energy and motivation to have to thrash through everything all the time.

  167. okrapod wrote:

    I think people want answers to lots of things but for various reasons they want to or have to turn to the back of the math textbook and look up the answers rather than learning how to solve the problems, and it looks to me like teaching which claims to be authoritative (specific word) is like looking it up in the back of the book.

    Interesting. Maybe. I guess you can recycle someone else’s thoughts if you are a preacher and that makes it easier, too. And the hero worship of seeing or meeting people you’ve read?

    It could also be that they simply enjoy the non-conference parts of the conference, which in my experience generally involves a lot of socializing with coworkers in a non-work setting, and in larger conferences it involves meeting people you wouldn’t otherwise have met. I guess they aren’t so much going out drinking (?) but they can be networking with people, staying up late talking about Piper or whatever.

    Also, if pastors are taught now often that they ‘can’t be friends’ with their parishioners, maybe they think that leaves only other pastors and these are ways of facilitating that? I don’t think that’s a healthy attitude probably, but if you have it I could see how conferences might be useful.

  168. okrapod wrote:

    I have a thought about what people get out of theological systems like the neo-cals are offering. I think people want answers to lots of things but for various reasons they want to or have to turn to the back of the math textbook and look up the answers rather than learning how to solve the problems

    Yep, the New Calvinists promote reformed theology as having all the answers with the mind of God neatly packed in a theological box. The Generation Xers and Millennials love a religion that gives them a quick fix so they don’t have to look up from their cell phones and search for truth themselves. (speaking of which, I was almost killed yesterday by a young whippersnapper texting while driving … but the devil missed and I live another day to join other Wartburgers to expose his evil deeds)

  169. Leslie wrote:

    Check out Saeeds Facebook. Things are getting ugly.

    I had to stop when I saw the line – “As number one face of persecuted church in the world today, I have this hard responsibility…

  170. Burwell wrote:

    I had to stop when I saw the line – “As number one face of persecuted church in the world today

    Bit much, isn’t it?

    He seems to be losing it and I know his motives are not our motives for saying this, but it is a legit question whether that private yet is defensible from a fiscal perspective if it is being paid out of ministry funds.

  171. Velour wrote:

    Franklin Graham has enabled Saeed.

    Franklin Graham has learned what many of us have … there are “pastors” out there who lie and deceive. I wonder how many I have enabled over the past half-century with my tithes and offerings?

  172. okrapod wrote:

    I have a thought about what people get out of theological systems like the neo-cals are offering. I think people want answers to lots of things but for various reasons they want to or have to turn to the back of the math textbook and look up the answers rather than learning how to solve the problems, and it looks to me like teaching which claims to be authoritative (specific word) is like looking it up in the back of the book.

    There’s a good number of YRR that really just want to be right when everyone else is wrong. I think it goes hand in hand with the idea of election. It’s almost like they take perverse joy in everyone else going to hell.

    I’ve been thinking about this a lot in reading some of the stuff in Biblical feminist sites and groups, and from personal experience, but a lot of young Baptist men are very pampered (read: spoiled) growing up. I don’t think girls are treated even close to the same way. Boys are told that they will be leaders, champions, and warriors for Christ and girls are told their job is to raise boys who will become leaders, champions, and warriors for Christ.

    I think it’s many of these guys that become YRR. They are very entitled, very self-righteous, and for many of them, “No” was not a word they heard growing up. They were also told that as soon as they were old enough, God would provide a wife who would spoil them just like their moms did. So like Mr. Driscoll, they grow up believing that the point of everyone else was to cater to all their wants, and the sole purpose of marriage was centered around the husband. It’s still surprising to me hearing Christian guys talk about their “needs”, and everything they are talking about is really a selfish want (no, your wife providing sex on demand is not a need!).

    A lot of my female Christian friends have married non-Christians because a lot of Christian guys treated them like dirt. Most of the Christians who got married in their younger 20s are all divorced, and for that reason. Some of them married jerks very much like Driscoll just to get married and then regretted it instantly. And though I think the stats are opposite in neo-Cal churches, in most other churches I’ve been to, single women outnumber single men.

  173. @ ishy:

    What a mess.

    I periodically go back and ask what it was the Mohler meant in his where-are-they-going-to-go comment. What exactly about what the neo-cals are teaching and doing does he think that people want enough to hang around his bunch based on some idea that it cannot be found elsewhere? He seems to think they have tapped into some human need that people are impelled to satisfy, or perhaps some inescapable theological principle which the Spirit convicts people about until they submit to the idea. Somewhere he seems to be targeting something he sees in people, but for the life of me I don’t see exactly what it is.

  174. okrapod wrote:

    I periodically go back and ask what it was the Mohler meant in his where-are-they-going-to-go comment. What exactly about what the neo-cals are teaching and doing does he think that people want enough to hang around his bunch based on some idea that it cannot be found elsewhere? He seems to think they have tapped into some human need that people are impelled to satisfy, or perhaps some inescapable theological principle which the Spirit convicts people about until they submit to the idea. Somewhere he seems to be targeting something he sees in people, but for the life of me I don’t see exactly what it is.

    I think he is targeting young men raised in fundamentalist Christian homes, but he does so with a perspective of one who feels just as entitled, so he doesn’t realize he is alienating everyone else. Or maybe he does, and he just doesn’t care. Mohler is more careful than some (*ostentatiously points at Piper*).

    I don’t know that he completely believes people are impelled to it, though, or he and others in the neo-Cal movement wouldn’t push covenants so hard. Even if it’s not conscious, I think many of them realize that as soon as people figured out what the neo-Cal leaders were really pushing, they’d walk away quickly.

  175. ishy wrote:

    They were also told that as soon as they were old enough, God would provide a wife who would spoil them just like their moms did.

    Yuck.

  176. @Talmidah & Velour

    I’ve posted another quick bread recipe on the cooking page (Easy Rolls) – easier than biscuits! My momma’s aunt gave me this recipe over 30 years ago. I make the rolls fairly often. I made half a batch Sat. night and thought, why not put the recipe on TWW! The only bad part – I hate washing muffin pans, and they’re just not the same if you use cupcake papers. I like a crispy crusts!
    Max might know about Easy Rolls.

  177. Max wrote:

    Talmidah wrote:

    Max wrote:

    Could it be that ROBERT MORRIS is behind Driscoll’s appearance on Life Today? …

    Probably. I’m wondering about that as well.

    Shhhhh … Robert Morris doesn’t like us talking about him on the internet:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NyXAtOO8GA

    Ahh yes. The gossip video. Funny how anything negative is nearly always gossip to so many of these guys. God forbid they should be guilty of wrongdoing and be called out for it. 🙂

  178. ishy wrote:

    I think it’s many of these guys that become YRR. They are very entitled, very self-righteous, and for many of them, “No” was not a word they heard growing up.

    I think there is a great deal of credence to this idea. Our former YRR pastor (who was in his early 30’s) was absolutely astounded when people started to tell him “NO” about implementing a covenant that members had to sign. 9 out of the 10 people on that committee were dead-set against membership “contracts.” He didn’t really know how to handle that very well. I think he just expected us all to roll over and play the part of blindly obedient sheep. God gave us minds and discernment for a reason!

    Funny thing is–millennials perceive themselves as very spiritual people. This is an assessment our former pastor gave as well. I seriously CANNOT see that. Most millennials are straight-up narcissists and know-it-alls. I wouldn’t think either of those traits are very ‘spiritual’ people. Unless of course, they are the “Christian Hedonists” that Piper talks about!

  179. @ Max:

    He does seem to be all over the place right now, Max. Maybe he figures things have gone back to business as usual. Thank God that some of us haven’t developed amnesia and don’t mind reminding others of his vile shenanigans.

  180. @ Nancy2:

    Sounds great, Nancy2, and thanks! I have something for you and Velour and anyone else who may be interested as well. I’ll post it on the cooking page after I rest a bit. 🙂

  181. Talmidah wrote:

    Maybe he figures things have gone back to business as usual.

    He was probably advised to lay low for a while until the church’s short memory forgot about him. By coming out in a new and improved (?) version, he can recapture his stage. This guy will never fade from the public eye. He needs to be idolized … it’s a sickness. He is a master at re-inventing himself. The church forgot he was emergent before he became resurgent … his emerging church stint with Rob Bell, Don Miller and Brian McLaren was about as weird as his New Calvinism stardom. They’ll forget his potty-mouth rebellion at Mars Hill given enough time. Most probably don’t know that he has resurfaced in Arizona.

  182. Talmidah wrote:

    Funny how anything negative is nearly always gossip to so many of these guys.

    These preacher-boys should know that believers are to “be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort” (2 Timothy 4:2). We are not gossiping about these knuckleheads – we are reproving and rebuking their word and deed as we have been called to do. Do they think we will encourage and exhort their error and rebellion?! It’s OK to usurp illegitimate authority … it’s necessary to keep the church free from charlatans and false teachers. Praise God that there are pew peons who have some spiritual sense about them and bold enough to speak.

  183. ishy wrote:

    Some of them married jerks very much like Driscoll just to get married and then regretted it instantly.

    I call it the “trapped coyote stage” in marriage. If a coyote is ensnared by a leg-hold trap, he will eventually chew his leg off to get out. I’ve seen some young women at YRR church plants near me who look like they are about ready to do that.

  184. It’s telling that Driscoll wouldn’t submit to his own system’s “restoration” program. How many members were subjected to a similar program – all the simply retain their family and friends, just to watch the man at the head of it all walk away and not subject himself to the same idiocy?

  185. Leslie wrote:

    This is off topic but not sure where else to put it. Saeed Abedini is running amok against Franklin Graham on his Facebook page.

    Feral junkyard dogs turning on each other…

    (Don’t call them “Wolves” — Wolves have more CLASS than that.)

  186. elastigirl wrote:

    something about the facial expression in that photo (in the blue plaid vest).

    it’s mask-like.

    Took another look at the picture.
    It’s so 1950s TV Nice Kid, BIG Smile and all —
    The Central Casting ARCHETYPE of the Ozzie & Harriet/Donna Reed Clean Cut Choirboy!

    The CUTE Clean-Cut Choirboy — Butter Wouldn’t Melt in his Mouth!

    With his KYOOOT Pudgy Face and Widdle Vest just like Daddy’s!

  187. Max wrote:

    I’ve seen some young women at YRR church plants near me who look like they are about ready to do that.

    you wonder at what point a young woman who has had ‘enough’ reacts and how she reacts ….. sadly, some may fall into depression as a way to suppress their anger, not knowing any way out of their particular hell ….. some may confront the nonsense and abuse successfully (the lucky ones) and some …. well, we’ve read stories here about what goes on when they try to escape the nightmare

  188. ishy wrote:

    There’s a good number of YRR that really just want to be right when everyone else is wrong. I think it goes hand in hand with the idea of election. It’s almost like they take perverse joy in everyone else going to hell.

    A LOT of Church Culture is one-upmanship (“ME SHEEP! YOU GOAT! HAW! HAW! HAW!”) and this edition of God’s Speshul Pets just ramped it up to 11.

    I still think they’re trying to PROVE to themselves that THEY are Truly Elect, God’s Speshul Pets, and in the Zero-Sum Game the only way to rise to the top is to kick everyone else to the bottom.

  189. ishy wrote:

    It’s still surprising to me hearing Christian guys talk about their “needs”, and everything they are talking about is really a selfish want (no, your wife providing sex on demand is not a need!).

    Even if (like Marky-Mark) you haven’t gotten any for THREE WHOLE DAYS??????

  190. Nancy2 wrote:

    @Talmidah & Velour
    I’ve posted another quick bread recipe on the cooking page (Easy Rolls) – easier than biscuits! My momma’s aunt gave me this recipe over 30 years ago. I make the rolls fairly often. I made half a batch Sat. night and thought, why not put the recipe on TWW! The only bad part – I hate washing muffin pans, and they’re just not the same if you use cupcake papers. I like a crispy crusts!
    Max might know about Easy Rolls.

    Yum!

  191. Max wrote:

    Yep, the New Calvinists promote reformed theology as having all the answers with the mind of God neatly packed in a theological box.

    WE and WE Alone Have God All Figured Out!
    How Dare HE Act in Any Other Way!

    The Generation Xers and Millennials love a religion that gives them a quick fix so they don’t have to look up from their cell phones and search for truth themselves.

    You find that a LOT more among Millenials than Gen-Xers. Especially Millenials who have been indulged as their Boomer Parents’ Mini-Mes and Keeper Kids. Gen-Xers were often the discard pile of First Attempts.

    I know a few Gen-Xers, and those I know are scared of the Completely Entitled and Detached from Meatspace Reality of Millenials. Most recent stories are of Millenials going “What’s Wrong with Slavery?” and always being the ones who initiate the sub-subject of Owners’ SEXUAL rights over their Animate Property.
    (speaking of which, I was almost killed yesterday by a young whippersnapper texting while driving … but the devil missed and I live another day to join other Wartburgers to expose his evil deeds)
    Remember that church bus that got head-oned? Thirteen Dead?
    Driver was texting.
    Before the bang, there was a trail of reports of said church bus weaving all over the rosd (txt txt txt txt txt txt txt txt txt…)

  192. Max wrote:

    Yep, the New Calvinists promote reformed theology as having all the answers with the mind of God neatly packed in a theological box.

    WE and WE Alone Have God All Figured Out!
    How Dare HE Act in Any Other Way!

    The Generation Xers and Millennials love a religion that gives them a quick fix so they don’t have to look up from their cell phones and search for truth themselves.

    You find that a LOT more among Millenials than Gen-Xers. Especially Millenials who have been indulged as their Boomer Parents’ Mini-Mes and Keeper Kids. Gen-Xers were often the discard pile of First Attempts.

    I know a few Gen-Xers, and those I know are scared of the Completely Entitled and Detached from Meatspace Reality of Millenials. Most recent stories are of Millenials going “What’s Wrong with Slavery?” and always being the ones who initiate the sub-subject of Owners’ SEXUAL rights over their Animate Property.

    (speaking of which, I was almost killed yesterday by a young whippersnapper texting while driving … but the devil missed and I live another day to join other Wartburgers to expose his evil deeds)

    Remember that church bus that got head-oned? Thirteen Dead?
    Driver was texting.
    Before the bang, there was a trail of reports of said church bus weaving all over the rosd (txt txt txt txt txt txt txt txt txt…)

  193. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    When I see a “public speaker” who doesn’t understand these kinds of boundaries, it is a signal to me that they may have significant psychological issues

    I think that ‘public speakers’ know precisely what they are doing in these situations.
    They like a to have a captive audience.

    The best thing to do is to stand up and ask for another speaker to speak on a more relevant topic.

  194. Max wrote:

    … Praise God that there are pew peons who have some spiritual sense about them and bold enough to speak.

    Yes, yes to your entire comment. Wise words.

    I do hope more believers speak up, and slam their wallets and pocketbooks completely shut to the phony-baloneys of the church world. No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

  195. “Mark Driscoll – Back in the Public Eye”

    Why are the Christian elite so intent on putting Driscoll back on stage? They surely know his dark past and have undoubtedly heard his perverse eisegesis of Scripture. Why risk their own ministries to make room for him again? Perhaps they really aren’t in charge of their pulpits at all when they invite him to speak … perhaps the problem lies with the pew, a crooked and perverse generation controlling the pulpit to give them what they want. A guy like Drisoll would have no stage if it wasn’t for an audience. It’s only where a form of godliness exists, rather than the real thing, where you find such characters prospering in ministry. Driscoll sells tickets because Christianity Lite is scrambling to buy them. When Driscoll is back in the public eye, the church gets a black eye. As long as most of the church ain’t the Church at all, folks like Driscoll can walk in and take over.

  196. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Took another look at the picture.
    It’s so 1950s TV Nice Kid, BIG Smile and all —
    The Central Casting ARCHETYPE of the Ozzie & Harriet/Donna Reed Clean Cut Choirboy!
    The CUTE Clean-Cut Choirboy — Butter Wouldn’t Melt in his Mouth!
    With his KYOOOT Pudgy Face and Widdle Vest just like Daddy’s!

    Eddie Haskell, disguised as the Beaver.

  197. Max wrote:

    Why are the Christian elite so intent on putting Driscoll back on stage? They surely know his dark past and have undoubtedly heard his perverse eisegesis of Scripture. Why risk their own ministries to make room for him again?

    I wonder ……. maybe the Elite think that Driscoll will, in turn, cover their (ahem) assets, if they ever go down in flames?

  198. Nancy2 wrote:

    I wonder ……. maybe the Elite think that Driscoll will, in turn, cover their (ahem) assets, if they ever go down in flames?

    Oh yes. That’s what they do.

    Cowards.

  199. Hey, I just had an idea: maybe Mark Driscoll could take on Saeed Abedini as his sidekick, and hit all the Christian TV shows and conferences.

    Now, I myself would pay to see that.

  200. Talmidah wrote:

    Hey, I just had an idea: maybe Mark Driscoll could take on Saeed Abedini as his sidekick, and hit all the Christian TV shows and conferences.
    Now, I myself would pay to see that.

    Can you see them arguing over who gets to be the sidekick?

  201. Talmidah wrote:

    Hey, I just had an idea: maybe Mark Driscoll could take on Saeed Abedini as his sidekick, and hit all the Christian TV shows and conferences.

    I’d rather hear about the dumbnamic duo teaming up to start underground churches in Iran.

  202. Burwell wrote:

    Leslie wrote:
    Check out Saeeds Facebook. Things are getting ugly.
    I had to stop when I saw the line – “As number one face of persecuted church in the world today, I have this hard responsibility…“

    Saeed sounds like a narcissist, plain and simple.

  203. ishy wrote:

    Can you see them arguing over who gets to be the sidekick?

    Yeah lol…I’d pop popcorn and sell tickets for that!

  204. Nancy2 wrote:

    I’d rather hear about the dumbnamic duo teaming up to start underground churches in Iran.

    Me too, but we know that dog just ain’t gon’ hunt. 😉

  205. @ Bridget:

    I agree. Did you see Barbara Roberts’ post re him on SSB? It was right on. Other good posts there too.

    I saw on his FB page that his divorce was finalized April 6th. Good for Naghmeh. I hope she and the kids stay safe and far away from him.

    And while we’re on the subject, he seems to still have quite a following. Perhaps his friends can hand over their hard-earned cash to him so he can stop already with the whining about money. Please.

  206. Nancy2 wrote:

    I wonder ……. maybe the Elite think that Driscoll will, in turn, cover their (ahem) assets, if they ever go down in flames?

    “One Hand Washes the Other…”

  207. Bridget wrote:

    Saeed sounds like a narcissist, plain and simple.

    Which (along with Sociopathy) is becoming THE Requirement for a Celebrity Preacher.

  208. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    Saeed sounds like a narcissist, plain and simple.

    Which (along with Sociopathy) is becoming THE Requirement for a Celebrity Preacher.

    Or, maybe he’s just misunderstood. 🙂

  209. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Yep, the New Calvinists promote reformed theology as having all the answers with the mind of God neatly packed in a theological box.
    WE and WE Alone Have God All Figured Out!
    How Dare HE Act in Any Other Way!

    “Whatever difficulties he may have had with philosophy, Latin, and calculus, there had never been a time since the age of twelve when Eddie Fislinger had had difficulty in understanding what the Lord God Almighty wanted, and why, all through history, he had acted thus or thus.”

    Elmer Gantry- by Sinclair Lewis (Kindle Locations 580-582).

  210. Max wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    Some of them married jerks very much like Driscoll just to get married and then regretted it instantly.
    //
    I call it the “trapped coyote stage” in marriage. If a coyote is ensnared by a leg-hold trap, he will eventually chew his leg off to get out. I’ve seen some young women at YRR church plants near me who look like they are about ready to do that.

    One of my best friends moved to Europe after her divorce. Both their families are Christians, so I’m sure there was some pressure for her not to divorce him. He immediately turned around and got remarried.

  211. Short off-topic announcement.

    Thanks to the donors who contributed to the GoFundMe account to pay for Shauna and Billy’s April rent where they live in Texas, the 8% fees that GoFundMe charges, and to the donor who provided some money in the interim for food, household items, and gasoline while Shauna looks for another job. (Her part-time job at a grocery store was reduced to 13 hours.)

    Billy is in high school and he is growing quite quickly. He needs more clothes and shoes.
    Shauna is unable to afford to buy him these things at this time. If any of you would like
    to buy any of these items for Billy that would be great. (I have asked Shauna to email Deb here at TWW the mailing address for Shauna and Billy.)

    You can leave messages for Shauna over on the Open Discussion thread.

    The List.

    Short off-topic announcement.

    Thanks to the donors who contributed to the GoFundMe account to pay for Shauna and Billy’s April rent where they live in Texas, the 8% fees that GoFundMe charges, and to the donor who provided some money in the interim for food, household items, and gasoline while Shauna looks for another job. (Her part-time job at a grocery store was reduced to 13 hours.)

    Billy is in high school and he is growing quite quickly. He needs more clothes and shoes.
    Shauna is unable to afford to buy him these things at this time. If any of you would like
    to buy any of these items for Billy that would be great. (I have asked Shauna to email Deb here at TWW the mailing address for Shauna and Billy.)

    You can leave messages for Shauna over on the Open Discussion thread.

    ————————-

    Billy's sizes

    Jeans / pants: 30/32 he also fits 30/34 he’s 6 ft tall now

    Shirts: Medium
    He likes the in style T’s but will be fine with anything you know how teens are.

    Gym Shorts: Medium – Large
    He likes Nike – keep in mind we are not requesting any name brands just letting you know what he wears. I always find killer deals at Ross on those clearance racks are the best.

    Shoes: Size 11

    Boxer briefs: Size 30-32

    Socks: men’s 9-11 he likes short and long

    Sweat pants / work out pants: Medium and large

    Anything is a blessing to Billy, and I know he will wear what he gets with pride like the last time.

  212. unepetiteanana wrote:

    It’s telling that Driscoll wouldn’t submit to his own system’s “restoration” program. How many members were subjected to a similar program – all the simply retain their family and friends, just to watch the man at the head of it all walk away and not subject himself to the same idiocy?

    This!

  213. Velour wrote:

    Short off-topic announcement.

    Thanks to the donors who contributed to the GoFundMe account to pay for Shauna and Billy’s April rent where they live in Texas, the 8% fees that GoFundMe charges, and to the donor who provided some money in the interim for food, household items, and gasoline while Shauna looks for another job. (Her part-time job at a grocery store was reduced to 13 hours.)

    Billy is in high school and he is growing quite quickly. He needs more clothes and shoes.
    Shauna is unable to afford to buy him these things at this time. If any of you would like
    to buy any of these items for Billy that would be great. (I have asked Shauna to email Deb here at TWW the mailing address for Shauna and Billy.)

    You can leave messages for Shauna over on the Open Discussion thread.

    The List.

    Short off-topic announcement.

    Thanks to the donors who contributed to the GoFundMe account to pay for Shauna and Billy’s April rent where they live in Texas, the 8% fees that GoFundMe charges, and to the donor who provided some money in the interim for food, household items, and gasoline while Shauna looks for another job. (Her part-time job at a grocery store was reduced to 13 hours.)

    Billy is in high school and he is growing quite quickly. He needs more clothes and shoes.
    Shauna is unable to afford to buy him these things at this time. If any of you would like
    to buy any of these items for Billy that would be great. (I have asked Shauna to email Deb here at TWW the mailing address for Shauna and Billy.)

    You can leave messages for Shauna over on the Open Discussion thread.

    ————————-

    Billy’s sizes

    Jeans / pants: 30/32 he also fits 30/34 he’s 6 ft tall now

    Shirts: Medium
    He likes the in style T’s but will be fine with anything you know how teens are.

    Gym Shorts: Medium – Large
    He likes Nike – keep in mind we are not requesting any name brands just letting you know what he wears. I always find killer deals at Ross on those clearance racks are the best.

    Shoes: Size 11

    Boxer briefs: Size 30-32

    Socks: men’s 9-11 he likes short and long

    Sweat pants / work out pants: Medium and large

    Anything is a blessing to Billy, and I know he will wear what he gets with pride like the last time.

    Alas, I am retired from Huge Apparel Company as of this past December, but I have noticed that Amazon has amazing prices on youth/men casual clothing. I will ask my husband if I can send some stuff along.

  214. I’m from the Seattle area and knew of Driscol’s despicable attitudes toward’s women, his abusive nature and narcissism long before it landed on national radar. A group of us prayed relentlessly for years for his exposure and the deposing of the Driscol empire before he could destroy the faith any more than he already has. It was a glorious day when he was finally held to account and a profound answer to prayer. Watching him rewrite the history about why he was deposed from his dictatorship into a victim whine in which he is exercising his gracious forgiveness towards those bad people (his victims) is absolutely sickening. When I checked out his church site recently and saw that he is teaching a series on “leadership” I was astonished

    One of the worst examples of leadership in recent church history is now a subject matter expert about leadership. The lack of integrity in this interview both by those conducting it and the true monster and liar whose feeding them a revisionist history is a sad commentary about the mediocrity of Christian talk shows.

  215. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Alas, I am retired from Huge Apparel Company as of this past December, but I have noticed that Amazon has amazing prices on youth/men casual clothing. I will ask my husband if I can send some stuff along.

    Congratulations on your retirement!

    Thank you for being such a sweetheart and getting Billy clothing last time.

    And thanks for being willing, with a vote from your husband, to getting Billy some more clothing. I will have to check out the prices on Amazon. I was thinking about going to Costco, Wal-Mart, and Target.

  216. Disgusted in Seattle wrote:

    I’m from the Seattle area and knew of Driscol’s despicable attitudes toward’s women, his abusive nature and narcissism long before it landed on national radar. A group of us prayed relentlessly for years for his exposure and the deposing of the Driscol empire before he could destroy the faith any more than he already has. It was a glorious day when he was finally held to account and a profound answer to prayer.

    Hi DisgustedinSeattle,

    Thank you for praying to get rid of this monster in Seattle. I too prayed my heart out from California. I got down on my knees and thanked God when Mark Driscoll was exposed and forced to step down. But the damage he did…to the Paul Petry Family and to so many others….wow. Just wow. Driscoll has NEVER made amends.

  217. @ M. Joy:

    Right…and I can relate, unfortunately. Hindsight kicks in and you wonder what in the world you were thinking!

  218. @ Velour and Catholic Gate-Crasher:

    Velour, thanks a ton for posting Billy’s sizes, and thanks to you, CG-C and anyone else for the willingness to pitch in.

    I’m always on the lookout for deals on super-inexpensive clothing. Right now, Michaels craft stores have Gildan T-shirts for $2 each, in a wide range of colors. I bought my younger grandson a stack of these the last time they were this price, which was just a few weeks ago. Michaels prices are always pretty good but you may have to pay a few dollars to ship, even when you do ship-to-store. I hope they change that.

    http://www.michaels.com/gildan-short-sleeve-adult-tshirt/M10093625.html?dwvar_M10093625_color=Heliconia#q=shirt&start=1

    They also have youth sizes and women’s shirts, if anyone’s interested. I’ve bought both on sale. The Gildan quality is fine.

    My husband is a Goodwill lurker on weekends and he already looks for young men’s stuff for our grandsons. He’s a very good shopper, so I’ll give him Billy’s sizes.

    Walmart always has great prices on Hanes and Fruit of the Loom, and they recently changed their shipping policy (to compete with Amazon, of course). It’s much better now.

    I do all my shopping online and hunt deals all the time. Whenever I see especially good ones I’ll post them on Open Discussion.

    BTW, I’m wondering what Shauna needs…?

    I’ll also post this over on OD now.

  219. Disgusted in Seattle wrote:

    A group of us prayed relentlessly for years for his exposure and the deposing of the Driscol empire before he could destroy the faith any more than he already has. It was a glorious day when he was finally held to account and a profound answer to prayer.

    Thank you “Disgusted” for hearing God, discerning error, and faithfully interceding. Your testimony points to the most effective way for the Body of Christ to deal with such ministers and ministries. It’s by my Spirit, saith the Lord.

    May others join your lead and pray that America will be purged from the ails of New Calvinism which create “leaders” like Driscoll. May a great multitude of Christians get disgusted enough to shout enough is enough and get on their knees to cry out for God to forgive us, cleanse His church, and heal our land.

    Thank you for not wasting your disgust.

  220. @ Talmidah:

    You’re welcome, Talmidah. It’s just my little ministry here, and in life. Rallying the troops to a good cause!

    Thanks for your shopping advice about getting good deals on clothes for a young man like Billy.

    I’ll catch up with you on the Open Discussion thread.

  221. I was truly hoping that Mark Driscoll and his teachings would be thrown out with the baby and the bath water. He is one disturbing wolf in sheep’s clothing leading the blind sheep to slaughter.

  222. Karen wrote:

    I was truly hoping that Mark Driscoll and his teachings would be thrown out with the baby and the bath water. He is one disturbing wolf in sheep’s clothing leading the blind sheep to slaughter.

    Unfortunately, there are deceived powers-that-be who nurse wounded wolves back to health and release them again into the sheepfold. Forgive Driscoll if/when he repents? Yes. Restore him to ministry? NO!

  223. I agree Max. You say, “Forgive Driscoll if/when he repents? Yes. Restore him to ministry? NO!”

    Correct, if in fact there is true godly sorrow that occurs within his heart which will show him the truth regarding the Scriptures in context. Repentance and turning to the teachings of Jesus Christ will create a new heart in him, as in being born again of the Spirit of our LORD.

    We must remember there are some leopards whose spots never change.

  224. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    You watched Gene Scott too? I used to have insomnia in college in the mid-1980s and one of the local UHF channels carried his program for several hours each night. It was fascinating stuff, especially the mathematics of the Egyptian pyramids and other topics that he would cover.

  225. Max wrote:

    I hope Sheila Walsh and Randy Robison somehow get wind of this TWW post and read the real story behind Driscoll’s rise and fall. They have just given the potty-mouth a national stage painting a picture of an anointed one and and rejection by his disciples. Well, Mark ain’t Jesus. Life Today owes the good folks who follow their ministry an apology, retraction of the piece, and purging of the interview from their video file so it doesn’t get further distribution.

    They won’t. TV people rarely do research, just bring in someone who can get them some excitement, viewers, and ratings.

  226. For all Mark Driscoll’s talk, he, the driver, leader and vision caster ended up under the bus he was supposed to be driving.

  227. Actually, everybody, the Walsh/Robison interview from 4-6-2017 is now 404. The only way to watch the video interview at the moment seems to be markdriscoll.org.

    Which is almost a shame, in a way, now that there’s finally a long-form analysis of the narrative Driscoll provided to Walsh and Robison about what he said was a years-long conflict behind the scene about governance

    http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/search/label/walsh%20Robison%20interview

    It took a while to compile all this stuff and it must be said, it’s kind of a slog.

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