Women in these systems are not going to dare question anything IMO simply because they are women and must not usurp authority of men.

Oh man. I wouldn’t bring up the bathroom bill with anyone on a plane. I never discuss religion or politics with anyone I don’t know – present company excepted, excepting politics. I will (and have called) call someone out if they say something horribly bigoted (like the woman in the theater who “confided” in me that she thought there were just too many Asians around. I politely informed her my wife is “asian”. AWKward!)
Anyway, I really keep to myself most times when travelling.
True story: I was reading a book on the history of Islam entitled “A Brief Guide to Islam”. I had more people engage me reading that book than I did reading “Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science”. Number one question from strangers? “Am I going to convert?” My answer “How do you know I haven’t already?” AWKward!

“50 years after the abuse, he began to open up to an outsider.”

Providence is in play when a person who desperately needs to talk is directed to someone who has been called to ‘a listening ministry’

In cases like this, I don’t believe in ‘coincidence’. This case was too important and the man’s need was great, hence his tears.

No offense to these fine folks on the video, but what alternate reality do they reside in? I mean most people are trying just to get by day by day. Do people actually think like this? I had a great deal of rather sharp snarks I was going to add but I just decided to say this. Ladies/gentlemen on the video/church just follow what Dee wrote concerning the gentleman and do the same. God listens to everyone all the time in every situation, should we do any less?

Just Quote Bible Verses When Asked Deep Questions.

Like Calormenes quoting the Poets in Chronicles of Narnia: A Horse and His Boy.

Or a Calvary Chapelite duckspeaking Bible Bullet thoughtstoppers.

This post made me cry. It’s very true that those you come in contact with every day are looking to be understood and accepted, not corrected. To be seen as an immortal soul who matters is something I guess I have very rarely experienced.

I have been in churches where to even question something the pastor says (even if blatantly false) is to sign your own social death warrant. So we play the game of let’s humor the pastor because he’s too brittle to be corrected. So then, what is the difference between pastor and buffoon?

I have also attended a church where the pastor loved questions and welcomed them. He was fine with disagreements, he didn’t have to be right. He’d say what he believed and why and he’d listen to you, and you could talk freely. He did not disapprove of you even if he disagreed with you. He loved to talk about “the word”, he loved to hear what you were learning, what you were experiencing in your walk with God, not so he could correct you but so he could rejoice with you and encourage you more. He was a rare gem.

I agree that a person should always use tact and kindness if correcting an error, regardless of whether the person in error is “in authority” or not. I just don’t relate to this whole “authority” business. I’ve been a Christian 40+ years and it’s only recently that the idea of authority and hierarchy have become commonly accepted in evangelical churches. I’m more comfortable outside of churches now. And being outside, I cringe when I realize how the person on the plane would likely take that response about bathrooms. Christians are always so ready to correct the rest of the world, not so ready to face the fact that more people are sexually assaulted in their own churches than in public bathrooms.

PewSitter wrote:

From these comments, I don’t thing you can conclude unequivocally that she would blithely trip along and let a pastor speak heresy with no pushback.

It seems like she was saying she would probably just not attend a church where the pastor said things she felt were error. I don’t disagree with that. Sometimes it’s not that cut and dried, though.

PewSitter wrote:

Frankly, I appreciate much of what I read on this site, but I don’t buy this one. Rosaria Butterfield didn’t even come close the revealing the entire conversation; you can’t assess her motives without the rest of the context. I have heard her speak with great love and winsomeness on other occasions. And the other woman, though she mentioned pastoral authority, came around to stating that you must “correct, but respectfully.” I don’t think she was really saying you never question the pastor. Or put it this way: From these comments, I don’t thing you can conclude unequivocally that she would blithely trip along and let a pastor speak heresy with no pushback.

You lose me with the word winsomeness. I have not a clue what you mean by this word?

From the video: “What you’re talking about here is boldness. It takes boldness.”
whaaaa? What is bold about qoting a bible verse like a giggly little girl in response to a serious question? Is that how they “tackle” everything? (Assuming that it really happened.) Take note: this little airplane dialog Rosaria brings up is between 2 women …….. What would she have done if the other person had been a man?

Oh, and if you think the pastor is wrong …… eh, maybe just go to the ladies room and touch up your lipstick, I guess.

I don’t know anything about the other 2 ladies, but Trilla Newbell also writes for the SBC’s ERLC. So, she is under a patriarchal umbrella.
It’s all okay as long as the gurlz don’t usurp their manly authorities.

mot wrote:

Ms. Newbell certainly does not want to do anything that will stop her paycheck, I will never get it when women like her are ok with being treated as 2nc class citizens?

On days when I feel weird about working for an “evil too big to fail bank” that has been in the news quite a lot recently, I’m going to remind myself that at least overt patriarchy and second class status is not really part of my job.

I believe that people who cannot accept correction are not only cowards, but they are people who will eventually bring about their own downfall after causing others to stumble. You don’t want to face God with those consequences.

“Listen to advice and accept correction, and in the end you will be wise.” Proverbs 19:20

I remember one time when I tried to correct my pastor. He was General Baptist in Southern California. He had given a sermon that hit me hard because it touched on women and their roles. The statement that caused me to write him a letter was that Bathsheba was to blame for David’s temptation. “She shouldn’t have been bathing on the roof where he could see her.”
I chose to do it in writing because I knew that I would get run over if I had tried it in person.

Before I put the letter in his church mail box, I made sure that I had read things correctly, and even read it to a girl friend to make sure it said what I wanted to say.

The man called me at work, not to arrange a meeting, but to lambaste me for the letter. The call was over 30 minutes and it was only through the grace of God that I wasn’t interrupted. When I finally got off the phone, I felt physically battered. I also felt very fortunate that I was far enough on my way to becoming Catholic, that Fr. Bruce was my true pastor.

Dee, I so appreciate your loving approach and your determination to honor the image of God in whomever you’re addressing. It shows an understanding that love is the greatest commandment. We cannot love if we speak before we’ve listened. A pat answer, even a pat answer with scripture in it, exalts the self of the one giving it and reduces the “neighbor” to something more akin to a question on a multiple choice test. “I have the right answer and you, neighbor, do not.”

Deb wrote:

@ Velour:
It was fun! There is just one in North Carolina right now. Glad it’s close by!

There’s more coming!

From original post:
“But keep your mitts off the pastor. Why? Your guess is as good as mine.”

Okay, here’s my guess. It’s because they have been taught and now teach others to worship hierarchy and authority rather than AnyOne in the Trinity. Their God(s) is/are Authority and Authority Structures set up by power hungry men, not the God of the Bible nor the Savior of the Gospels sent into the world to free us.

It is sad to watch them squirm around in their idolatry. Proclaiming themselves wise, they have become fools and not for Christ’s sake.

Mara wrote:

Okay, here’s my guess. It’s because they have been taught and now teach others to worship hierarchy and authority rather than AnyOne in the Trinity. Their God(s) is/are Authority and Authority Structures set up by power hungry men, not the God of the Bible nor the Savior of the Gospels sent into the world to free us.

What if a husband is teaching heresy in the home? What would they do then?

Nancy2 wrote:

Mara wrote:

Okay, here’s my guess. It’s because they have been taught and now teach others to worship hierarchy and authority rather than AnyOne in the Trinity. Their God(s) is/are Authority and Authority Structures set up by power hungry men, not the God of the Bible nor the Savior of the Gospels sent into the world to free us.

What if a husband is teaching heresy in the home? What would they do then?

Them wimmin must remain silent, it is in the Bible.

I watched that video all the way through…oy vey. I hope I can put to words some of my reactions. First, what was evident to me throughout the video is these women are so preoccupied with gender roles that they can’t answer the question like a normal human being. In that Patriarchal culture, biblical gender roles are the guiding force in so many situations in their lives. It seems they are frequently examining themselves as to whether or not they are crossing the boundaries of what is acceptable behavior for their gender.

I have attended many home bible studies in my lifetime and I’ve never been worried about stepping on someone’s toes. Then again, I view myself as a child of God first and foremost – not a female who must subscribe to certain biblical social mores. Sometimes at those bible studies, I, or another person (male or female) would question or disagree with something that the teacher, or someone else at the bible study had said. From that questioning would arise some lively conversations about different people’s beliefs. In the process, we were actually able to get to know each other better, because expressing disagreements enabled others to open up about their struggles with certain beliefs and teachings that exist within Christianity. In these Gospel Coalition women’s lives, it seems that the environment in which Bible study and teaching takes place is very rigid, stilted and ordered to the point where folks are squelched and freedom to express one’s ideas is looked upon with suspicion. The biblical gender roles world, I believe, suppresses people from behaving as they truly are, and instead playing a part that is a facade – not who they really are. It is a fake world that fosters insincerity and artificiality. I want no part of it.

Kathi wrote:

Timothy Hammons recently wrote about how the congregation is responsible for false teachers.
https://timothyjhammons.com/2017/02/19/the-responsibility-for-false-teachers-falls-on-the-congregation/#more-12958
What I so desperately want to ask him is if the congregation deems that he is a false teacher, would he be willing to abide by their correction?

Ha! That fella is what I would call the alt-Right of Neo-Calvinism. He rebuked me a few times on that National Women’s Day thread. He never actually addressed anything I said. He reminds me of the Fundamentalists who are always shouting: Show me a verse from the Bible!!! Do these folks go around quoting Scripture all day to everyone they meet? I doubt it. But it seems they think the only way Christians should have a discussion with each other is with a Bible Verse. If you can’t find a Bible Verse for everything you do, then maybe you are being deceived by the devil. It is a small world in which they live.

Darlene wrote:

First, what was evident to me throughout the video is these women are so preoccupied with gender roles that they can’t answer the question like a normal human being.

I noticed that too. It’s not just reformed outfits either, you’ll see the same dynamic amongst say Calvary Chapel women out here in the Bible belt West.

As a department leader, I corrected the pastor of my former church cult. Although he was Word of Faith, which has a bucket full of issues all its own, the particular flavor of Christianity really had no bearing. He went vicious and threatened to throw me out, solely because he was a narcissist and how dare I suggest I might know more than he did in my field of expertise – because he was never wrong and even if he were, all the toys belonged to him and he could do with them whatever he pleased, even if he ruined them. Yeah.
Now, some theologies lend themselves to the narcissistic world view more readily than others, but narcissists will be found in pulpits from all denoms, in my experience. And narcissists will always default to a position of being above questioning or correction. So….to me, if a pastor is claiming that he should never be corrected, he is exposing his true nature.
Sadly, so many people would rather have a ‘king’ to tell them what to believe and assure them they are goin to go to heaven that they would rather be slaves to a charismatic or powerful man than exercise the responsibility of knowing truth and being free.

Dee you made a good point about those asking questions. I never thought about it like that.

“A pastor’s authority (whatever that means) appears more important than the truth.”
This reminds me of Larry Taylor’s “The Ministry of An Assisting Pastor” (Calvary Chapel)

“34. Make the Pastor Look Good
Never make him look bad.
This is a basic principle of employment. Make the boss look good. Give him the credit for your good ideas. Decrease that he might increase.”

There is a mutant strain running through churchianity that seeks to elevate pastors to the level of Christ himself.

Darlene wrote:

The biblical gender roles world, I believe, suppresses people from behaving as they truly are, and instead playing a part that is a facade – not who they really are. It is a fake world that fosters insincerity and artificiality. I want no part of it.

Yes, Darlene.

And the fake friends are just as fake as the fake world in which they live. It’s a complete waste of time, in my opinion.

Well, I tried to get the italics right, but I didn’t quite. Sorry about that!

Loren Haas wrote:

I recently deleted something my pastor posted … [for the following honest reason]…
When he got back I told him what I did and why. Know what he said?
“Thanks! I did not read that one carefully and it was terrible. I appreciate you correcting me.”

It does happen, then!

This sounds promising, Loren. I’m keen to learn more – does this reflect a more general “team dynamic” in the congregation there?

@ ishy:

Ishy, exactly right! But may I add that that group (Neo or pre-Neo) failed the test 500 years ago already (in fact, even earlier). Run, indeed, as far away from them as you possibly can. And don’t look back, as you might just turn into a pillar of dust mites as you “keep house.”

As a reminder (oh, and puhleeaze, don’t let anyone try to “contextualize” the following bird droppings):

“The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Works 12.94

“No gown worse becomes a woman than the desire to be wise.” –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)

“Men have broad and large chests, and small narrow hips, and more understanding than women, who have but small and narrow breasts, and broad hips, to the end they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children.” –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Table Talk

Source: https://valerietarico.com/2013/07/01/mysogynistquoteschurchfathers/

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

It does happen, then!

If I’m reading these comments right then pastors that you can actually disagree with are thin on the ground. Being married to a Christian, I’m really trying to make my peace with it, but when I see the video above, the smug ‘we know it all’ attitude…My animosity starts to creep back.
Sorry gang but if someone started yammering at me about Bible based gender roles on an airplane, my thought is “Froot Loop”.

I’ve been on every side of this. I have no problem voicing my opinions about things (and opinions should be treated differently than facts). I generally don’t correct facts in class, unless I know the person just misspoke. It’s demoralizing if the person put in a lot of work. Normally it’s not a heretical kind of mistake, just a harmless one. Now, if it’s a discussion based class where the teacher is really a facilitator, I’ll speak up a lot.

On the other hand, I know exactly how many hours are put into every lesson and sermon my husband does. Not just that week, but over the years of schooling and experience. It’s frustrating when someone comes up and corrects him with the attitude of “you’re just wrong.” He has no problem being corrected, just be respectful and thoughtful. And for goodness sake, don’t tell everybody else except the preacher. Biggest pet peeve.

On the third hand, we’ve been “under” a preacher who frequently said things that were just plain wrong. The few times we did correct him, or even just offer up a different perspective, he became really passive aggressive and we eventually left. He is not Calvinist (I don’t think he even believes Baptists are saved), he was just lazy and arrogant.

Mutual respect goes a long ways. The preacher should have respect for the congregation, and the congregation should have respect for the preacher.

Bill M wrote:

“A pastor’s authority (whatever that means) appears more important than the truth.”
This reminds me of Larry Taylor’s “The Ministry of An Assisting Pastor” (Calvary Chapel)

It reminds me of Reichsmarshall Goering:
“If the Fuehrer says so, Two Plus To Equals Five.”

Abi Miah wrote:

A pat answer, even a pat answer with scripture in it, exalts the self of the one giving it and reduces the “neighbor” to something more akin to a question on a multiple choice test. “I have the right answer and you, neighbor, do not.”

Coup Counted.

“I Know I’m Right —
I HAVE A VERSE!”

@ An Attorney:

Amen to everything you said. I hope your pastors were respectful about it all.

Boston Lady wrote:

Ishy, exactly right! But may I add that that group (Neo or pre-Neo) failed the test 500 years ago already (in fact, even earlier). Run, indeed, as far away from them as you possibly can. And don’t look back, as you might just turn into a pillar of dust mites as you “keep house.”

Oh, I post the list of cult items occasionally to see where they stand, and after this video, I figured it was time for a checkup. Piper’s recent tirades against women having friends really set me off a bit, especially since he seems to think men should just treat women like housemaids and they shouldn’t speak to even their husbands, either.

I wish the SBC would wakeup and start calling a spade a spade, though, instead of ranting about politics. A cult’s taken over their denomination, and they barely even noticed.

The CS Lewis quotes remind me of one of my favorite lines from Doctor Who: “900 years in time and space and I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t important.”

An Attorney wrote:

I have heard pastors say things in the pulpit, in my areas of scientific and legal knowledge, that I know to be false. I have approached them privately and explained why I disagree with what they said and provided chapter and verse of reference works that backed me up. And said as well, “If I misspoke in your field of knowledge and expertise, would you not want to advise me of my misunderstanding?”
One example: Pastors often say that the Supreme Court of the U.S. ruled that students cannot pray in school. That is a common false understanding. The Supreme Court ruled that public schools, including public school EMPLOYEES, cannot lead or organize prayer by/for students in the school. Students can pray, and can even organize themselves to pray, on the same basis that any other student group can organize and meet together.

I understand that school prayer is legal as long as it is “student led and student initiated”. (I also agree with the bumper sticker that says, “As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools!”)

One saying that seriously annoys me is when I hear people say, God is not allowed in schools. One day, I may say back, “So, are you saying that when a Christian steps foot on campus, the Holy Spirit–which is a manifestation of God–slams into this invisible wall that’s around public school property and leaves the Christian behind until he/she leaves public school property, at which time it re-enters the Christian?”

Anna A wrote:

I remember one time when I tried to correct my pastor. He was General Baptist in Southern California. He had given a sermon that hit me hard because it touched on women and their roles. The statement that caused me to write him a letter was that Bathsheba was to blame for David’s temptation. “She shouldn’t have been bathing on the roof where he could see her.”
I chose to do it in writing because I knew that I would get run over if I had tried it in person.
Before I put the letter in his church mail box, I made sure that I had read things correctly, and even read it to a girl friend to make sure it said what I wanted to say.
The man called me at work, not to arrange a meeting, but to lambaste me for the letter. The call was over 30 minutes and it was only through the grace of God that I wasn’t interrupted. When I finally got off the phone, I felt physically battered. I also felt very fortunate that I was far enough on my way to becoming Catholic, that Fr. Bruce was my true pastor.

Sheesh!!! I’m sorry you went through all of that!

If I remember the Biblical story correctly, wasn’t it David on the roof of his palace who saw Bathsheba bathing? I don’t think she was on her roof; and what some critics of Bathsheba fail to remember was that she was performing a purification rite as required by Jewish law–a ritual cleansing after her menstrual cycle!

I like what Liz Curtis Higgs says about the David and Bathsheba story in one of her Bad Girls of the Bible books: The Bible says that he saw her but it never says that she saw him!

And David was the one that got the blame. Not Bathsheba.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

I wasn’t going to respond to this, but you used the word “winsomeness.”

LOL.

Tina wrote:

Sheesh!!! I’m sorry you went through all of that!
If I remember the Biblical story correctly, wasn’t it David on the roof of his palace who saw Bathsheba bathing? I don’t think she was on her roof; and what some critics of Bathsheba fail to remember was that she was performing a purification rite as required by Jewish law–a ritual cleansing after her menstrual cycle!
I like what Liz Curtis Higgs says about the David and Bathsheba story in one of her Bad Girls of the Bible books: The Bible says that he saw her but it never says that she saw him!
And David was the one that got the blame. Not Bathsheba.

That can’t be so! Otherwise, why would Nathan have went to Bathsheeba and said, “Bathsheeba, thou art the woman!” ??? ; ^ )

mot wrote:

Just remember the leaders in these SBC churches that go along with the 2000 BF&M hate and have a deathly fear of women IMO.

Yeah. I can make them act like a bunch of rabid dogs all by myself. They can’t even look me in the eye …….. once I figure them out, I can’t help but have this look in my eye if they speak to me …….. Ya know?
And if they slip up and open a proverbial door ….. tee hee!
I love to twist scripture use “do unto others” and the Great Commission on them…….. because it’s so obvious that Jesus could not possibly have meant to include women when he gave those instructions, doncha know!

Jack wrote:

yammering at me about Bible based gender roles

Has anyone else noticed that the New Calvinists spend more time trying to convince the rest of us about gender roles than they do preaching about Jesus? And when they finally do get around to dropping His name, they subordinate Him too!

Max wrote:

Jack wrote:

yammering at me about Bible based gender roles

Has anyone else noticed that the New Calvinists spend more time trying to convince the rest of us about gender roles than they do preaching about Jesus? And when they finally do get around to dropping His name, they subordinate Him too!

Max, they do not like the Jesus of the Bible.

The idea that pastors are such special snowflakes that any form of honestly asking questions or even questioning things said by a pastor automatically undermines their authority seems really strange to me.

Yes, a pastor probably knows more about a theological topic than anyone who didn’t study theology at university/seminary. That’s why it should be easy for them to either

– explain to me where I am wrong OR
– understand why my question raises an important point, or even invalidates my claim

In my experience, any preachers/speakers who are worth listening to will also listen to questions or criticism. Generally, if a criticism is not malicious, it’s a chance for me to learn something, and questions may help clarify the subject at hand.

Those speakers who do not answer questions or brush you off with a pat answer are usually not worth listening to.

If you have a suspicion that all questions are malicious and all those who ask them are “out to get you”, then you have a major problem and should seek professional help.

Oh, and BTW, and on the topic of verses:

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, […]

dee wrote:

Here is a good review of the situation.

Goodness, that quoted pastors even knows that David was not where he was supposed to be!

I think folks like this should ask themselves why they are so unwilling to blame david for his own sin? Why they are so unwilling to accept that he was the one in the wrong. Completely.

An Attorney wrote:

I have heard pastors say things in the pulpit, in my areas of scientific and legal knowledge, that I know to be false.

I have heard pastors say things in the pulpit, in my area of scientific knowledge, that I know to be true; but nowhere near as often as I’d like!

The smiles on those women’s faces in the video ……. is it just me ……….. or do they look sooooooo fake?

Nancy2 wrote:

dee wrote:

When I taught a class, I encouraged people to correct me if they knew I was wrong on anything.

I did the same thing when I taught math. And I can’t lecture in math – I desperately need back and forth communication and involvement.
I’m human. I make mistakes. If I’m wrong, call me on it. (Please, 2 + 3 isn’t 6, and at some point I just might write something like that on the board.) Even if it turns that I’m right, it’s a great thing to have the dialog and hash things out, and find out what’s going on – might be helpful to many of the class members, not just the one who thought I was wrong.
The same thing applies to SS, VBS, etc as far as I’m concerned!

The last few times I attended a Southern Baptist Sunday School class it appeared to me the Sunday School literature has been designed for a lecture approach and not a discussion approach.

Lea wrote:

Are you referring to something Piper himself said, or that weird article on DG?

He didn’t write it, but he pushed it with his own platform, which to me is the same thing.

ishy wrote:

Lea wrote:
Are you referring to something Piper himself said, or that weird article on DG?

He didn’t write it, but he pushed it with his own platform, which to me is the same thing.

Ok. Just seeing if I missed something.

BTW, correct above that ludicrous Bathsheba thing was from Debi Pearl, so it’s not surprising it’s idiotic.

I didn’t find anything supporting Pastoral Authority Trumps Truth in the video. In fact, they gave a couple of ways of questioning the pastor. It just needs to be done with respect; the same respect you would give any other professional.

An Attorney wrote:

I have heard pastors say things in the pulpit, in my areas of scientific and legal knowledge, that I know to be false. I have approached them privately and explained why I disagree with what they said and provided chapter and verse of reference works that backed me up. And said as well, “If I misspoke in your field of knowledge and expertise, would you not want to advise me of my misunderstanding?”

Did the pastor go back in the pulpit and correct the falsehoods?

Preacher’s Wife wrote:

Mutual respect goes a long ways. The preacher should have respect for the congregation, and the congregation should have respect for the preacher.

Good words of wisdom.

And from yet another aspect…

The schools keep talking about how they can at least partially replace teachers with computers in the classroom, and the teachers have been officially been given a heads up that it is coming. Already homeschool curricula are available which are largely computer based. Already post-secondary schools offer online instruction. And already preachers preach at multiple locations via video screens. IMO, some sunday school situations would be greatly improved with some good quality online instruction.

In our case, we are glad that the g’kids are in religious day schools where religion is a class, because what is available at the churches is of lesser quality and quantity and often has very different goals from what people aimed for in the past. But not everybody has the option of a religious day school or the option of homeschooling and with both parents working and trying to survive in our frantic society how can they come home and pour the time into it that a quality religious education requires? So what is to become of these kids who go to church but end up with little to show for it?

In my own parish, which we all agree is the best that we have found for our family, there is not much emphasis on the kind on instruction that I had in church as a child or that my children had in church as children. It is not that they neglect the kids, far from it, it is rather that their vision as to how to train up a child in the way he should go is different from ours. I/we understand that; it is nobody’s ‘fault’ and lots of folks agree with that. Nevertheless we/our family are turning out kids whose religious beliefs are largely either lutheran (for two kids) or else catholic (for one kid) because we have had to get out and scrabble around for both secular and religious education at the level we want. That is only a partial and temporary solution however. Anyhow when some of them were at SBC mega before we all went to where we are now they were getting basically nothing but social indoctrination and memorize some bible verses. That is not enough.

Perhaps the fundamentalists are doing better than this, and perhaps that may be one of the attractions of fundamentalism. Training of the children. I don’t know; it is just a thought.

okrapod wrote:

But not everybody has the option of a religious day school or the option of homeschooling and with both parents working and trying to survive in our frantic society how can they come home and pour the time into it that a quality religious education requires?

I thought about this for a while.
I guess it doesn’t matter what a person is being ‘taught’ in some class about ‘religion’ if when they look at their parents it is not reinforced by the WAY the parents are living as example to the children.
I was blessed to have a father who ‘taught’ the faith in how he lived. It doesn’t get any better than that.

Christiane wrote:

I guess it doesn’t matter what a person is being ‘taught’ in some class about ‘religion’ if when they look at their parents it is not reinforced by the WAY the parents are living as example to the children.
I was blessed to have a father who ‘taught’ the faith in how he lived. It doesn’t get any better than that.

Two things. Why would you assume that parents who, like Lydia once said, crawl through broken glass to get keep their kids in a religious day school would not be ‘living as example to the children’ at home? That is not a viable assumption with some evidence to back it up.

But and also, I do think that kids can pick up things at school and at church and wherever that gives them a vision for a quality of life not only different from but better than what they may be seeing at home. The public schools strive for this all the time in their sphere, at least in the departments of special ed like ResidentEducator is in. If that does not help, then we need to cut the budgets for this in the public schools and just shrug our shoulders and use that money for something else. How is it possible that public schools can have a beneficial effect like that but religious schools cannot? I don’t see that idea at all.

okrapod wrote:

I do think that kids can pick up things at school and at church and wherever that gives them a vision for a quality of life not only different from but better than what they may be seeing at home.

yes, this

I was teaching writing to a sixth grade inner city class: I had bought yellow highlighters for them and had them write on a topic, and then highlight their ‘golden line’ and offered and opportunity to share it with the class:
response, much
It was a VERY productive year and they went home with portfolios filled with poems and stories and photo/magazine picture autobiographies, book reports, and fables, and little books they made themselves from equipment I bought in to bind papers together, all decorated with their ‘kid art’. Their portfolios were packed.

at the end of the year, I overheard a girl say: ‘Mrs. Smith is helping me to see things differently’
Needless to say, it was one of the highlights of my career to overhear that…..

As to the IMPORTANT things of faith: ‘words’ versus ‘example’ ? For children?
I think ‘example’ is more the powerful teacher for the very young, yes.

@ okrapod:
true, this
I still remember the responses in Latin, the whole Credo in unum Deum, the Pater Noster, etc. all the way to the ‘ite missa est’ 🙂

long time ago, yet I remember the Latin, and the Greek ‘Kyrie’ also

@ Christiane:

I am glad you said that. I remember our public school latin also, -us -i -o -um -o etc and never ending et cetera. Only I thought I remembered it because I have aging brain syndrome where older people forget anything recent but remember in detail from long ago. Maybe not so much then.

@ okrapod:
yeah …. I can name everyone in my seventh grade graduating class, but I have trouble recalling very recent names and events quickly…. it’s really funny 🙂

Bill M wrote:

I later ran across the phrase if you continually need to give someone the benefit of doubt, you should doubt their benefit.

I like that one, Bill!

Christiane wrote:

But if you took the average twelve year old in a Sunday School and asked them some basic questions about ‘Who Christ Is’ and ‘the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity’, and ‘the Characteristics of God’,
would they be able to verbalize their understanding?

It depends. One anecdote. In either a ninth or tenth grade class at CertainSchool one girl stood up and challenged the teacher about something (it was a literature class) and she announced that she was a five point calvinist and therefore she believed whatever and whatever and believed that the teacher, and I assume the piece of literature, were wrong based on her calvinism. The teacher that this happened to had to ask RE what a five point calvinist was, never mind that the teacher herself is active in her church as has a child not much younger than young 5 pt cal there.

So I am thinking that what people know or not varies from church to church. And, like you say, from home to home.

And back to the topic of the post, I am thinking that perhaps if people were less concerned with whether or not they appeared submissive and teachable and were more concerned with content then this issue might have an entirely different picture.

okrapod wrote:

I am thinking that perhaps if people were less concerned with whether or not they appeared submissive and teachable and were more concerned with content then this issue might have an entirely different picture.

agreed ….. I think it is in Scripture that we are supposed to be able to give some account for our faith,
but if someone (a young person, especially) doesn’t KNOW what they believe …. then that can be difficult for them;
so the Church has an obligation to catechize at appropriate levels the teachings of the faith, in so far as that denomination finds them meaningful, as a matter of responsibility to the children and, in this, I think the Church is also accountable to God for how it presents Jesus to the children …. and I don’t mean a scene like that ‘Jesus Camp’ either …. what a horror of abuse that was!

Lea wrote:

I think folks like this should ask themselves why they are so unwilling to blame david for his own sin?

They know why they are unwilling to blame him. Because even though he is held responsible for the sin as the head of woman and head of state, he isn’t really guilty. He is only held responsible. They know who is actually guilty. They know who the evil temptress is and it’s not David. Every woman has the potential to be the evil temptress, pretty much from cradle to grave. It is in our nature. That’s why we have to work so hard to make sure we don’t fall into that roll because it’s easier than falling off a log. We don’t even have to try. It just happens. So much training must be poured into us and we must inflict so much supernatural diligence upon ourselves in order to keep us from falling off that log.

Another question they won’t ask themselves is why they turn a blind eye to Jesus holding men responsible for their own lusts. Again they know. It’s he woman’s fault. She is guilty because she exists. There is nothing more needed to incriminate her.

okrapod wrote:

It depends. One anecdote. In either a ninth or tenth grade class at CertainSchool one girl stood up and challenged the teacher about something (it was a literature class) and she announced that she was a five point calvinist and therefore she believed whatever and whatever and believed that the teacher, and I assume the piece of literature, were wrong based on her calvinism.

Cage Phase.
i.e. The Total Arrogance of the Predestined Elect.

Gus wrote:

The idea that pastors are such special snowflakes that any form of honestly asking questions or even questioning things said by a pastor automatically undermines their authority seems really strange to me.

I have to deal with Speshul Snowflakes at my job.
“HUG SMASH!!!!!”

mot wrote:

Just remember the leaders in these SBC churches that go along with the 2000 BF&M hate and have a deathly fear of women IMO.

Muscular(TM) or Not.

Mara wrote:

It is in our nature.

Actually I learned this idea with only slight modification at the university-biology department in fact. The theory runs like this, that civilization is built and/or enabled by the fact that the female of our species does not have an estrus cycle and therefore is available almost any time. Back in the day this was extremely important for survival since the female needed the male to stick around and provide food while she had a young infant. He stuck around, so the story goes, because of wink wink. So in the bargain what she brought to the table was wink wink and what he brought to the table was food.

Fast forward. Only recently have females been able to support themselves and their children adequately without a man. So women have used what they had to attract and keep a male-part of which was wink wink, thanks to her biological availability. Some were better at it than others, some could get and keep more dominant males, but make no mistake, the basic bargain was sex and food. Now we might say relationship and life style. But yes, the theory goes, women use what they have to get what they need.

This theory, you note, is amoral and has nothing to do with guilt or shame or religion.

Part of the reason I am a ” None/Done” is the fact so many ministers today are scared to death of being wrong…..and then, sadly, I am seen as a threat by most pastors in area. I went to the seminary. I know some of the stuff you’re saying is well, ” Bull” and sadly, so many of these guys can’t pull it off without ” Bull.” And I have/had a bad habit of calling them on it.
It doesn’t make me a popular person sitting out there in the pews. Especially from the pulpit.

Tina wrote:

“I Know I’m Right —
I HAVE A VERSE!”

My number one frustration with Christianity these days is that everyone believes they are right and can “prove” it by Scripture. Everyone “has a verse”!

It becomes an obsession with Scripture quoting for every minutiae of life. I’ve observed this on Christian sites over the past decade. Situations which call for common sense are replaced with “I have a verse!”. Listening to one’s conscience is replaced with “I have a verse!”. By the way…Should I go grocery shopping at Weis or Whole Foods? Is there a verse somewhere about that? LoL.

Lea wrote:

Anna A wrote:

The statement that caused me to write him a letter was that Bathsheba was to blame for David’s temptation. “She shouldn’t have been bathing on the roof where he could see her.”

1. David was the one who was not where he was supposed to be.
2. His reaction to you is a sign that he was not a safe pastor.
3. Can we talk about how all the ‘secret sin’ people are way too fond of David, and this blaming Bathsheba seems to be coming from that place? Because the bible doesn’t blame her. At all. Just like it doesn’t blame Esther for sleeping with the King of Persia.

These are the same folks who will blame a woman for being complicit in her rape because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The same folks who will fault a woman if a man lusts because she exposed her knees or a bit of cleavage.

@ Adrian Romano:

Hilarious! Almost as funny as The Beverly Ayrabs (old SNL skit).

Max wrote:

Jack wrote:

yammering at me about Bible based gender roles

Has anyone else noticed that the New Calvinists spend more time trying to convince the rest of us about gender roles than they do preaching about Jesus? And when they finally do get around to dropping His name, they subordinate Him too!

Max, I think it’s because these folks seem themselves to be Culture Warriors. In their world, Feminism is to blame on most of the ills in our society. Their cure is Biblical Gender Roles. If women today just knew their place, we could go back to the Good Old Days when men were in charge. Of course, I happen to think that every every generation has had its problems. Human history is fraught with egregious failings. There is no such thing as the good old days. Only in Christ’s Kingdom in the Ressurection will sin finally be conquered by the King of Kings.

okrapod wrote:

Darlene wrote:

By the way…Should I go grocery shopping at Weis or Whole Foods? Is there a verse somewhere about that?

Go to the one that is farthest away.
Proverbs 31:14

Isn’t this fun? It could be a TV game.

Whole Foods it is then!

“he pointed out”–continuity is awesome.

Nancy2 wrote:

The smiles on those women’s faces in the video ……. is it just me ……….. or do they look sooooooo fake?

Nancy2, as I said up thread it’s a system that fasters insincerity and artificiality. The under current in that system is that women must always be cognizant of what their role and place is – in the church, at home and in society at large. I would feel wound up tighter than a drum living that way.

Lea wrote:

ishy wrote:

Piper’s recent tirades against women having friends really set me off a bit, especially since he seems to think men should just treat women like housemaids and they shouldn’t speak to even their husbands, either.

Are you referring to something Piper himself said, or that weird article on DG?

Because I think that one was about fear that good friends would all turn into secret lovers in the nighttime.

Actually, that article about friendships was written by a woman, not Piper. But I’m sure everything on the DG website must pass the Piper approval.

Darlene wrote:

These are the same folks who will blame a woman for being complicit in her rape because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The same folks who will fault a woman if a man lusts because she exposed her knees or a bit of cleavage.

Just like Shari’a According to Wahabi & Talibani.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

Deb wrote:

We are going to the Grand Opening of Sprouts!

Sprouts is one of the local grocery chains around here. Cheaper than Whole Paycheck.

Ah…perhaps Sprouts is the Biblical Gospel-Centered grocery store. Alas, there is not one in my area.

Ron wrote:

Dee, I watched the whole video. All three said they would respond in some way with the truths of scripture, but do it in a way that recognizes the specifics of the group. I did not hear them advocate saying nothing, just the opposite.

In the video, they pretty much limited their range to a “back porch Bible study”.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

I have heard pastors say things in the pulpit, in my area of scientific knowledge, that I know to be true; but nowhere near as often as I’d like!

Me Too, and if it is different (contrary to, more specific, etc.) than the common knowledge, I personally thank the pastor and inquire about his research that led to the statement!.

Ken G wrote:

It just needs to be done with respect; the same respect you would give any other professional

Professional? How about the same respect for any other human being. Professionals and Pastors alike are not deserving of more respect than anyone else.

Victorious wrote:

Some are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good!

If they were really heavenly minded, they would be of earthly good. Lord knows we need more heavenly minded church folks! (but, I know what you mean)

unepetiteanana wrote:

I’ve listened to a few of her lectures, and she’s had several transgender friends. I think she knows and understands them just as much as you do …

Look, I couldn’t really give a rip about sticking up for RB, I just find your comment arrogant.

I’m sorry if you find my comment about RB arrogant. I find RB arrogant in her attitudes towards transgender people. She is saying that their lives aren’t good enough unless they conform to her gender and sexual mores. I just happen to have up close and personal experience with what happens when the attitudes expressed by RB and her ilk get to my transgender friend. Nobody, NOBODY should feel so depressed about her body and life that she tries to kill herself. Nobody.

I love those two quotes from CS Lewis. Those thoughts keep coming back to me, especially when I am tempted to simply dismiss someone. They also make me flinch when I see someone mistreating someone else online without cause.

I love Jesus. He is my everything.

Muff Potter wrote:

In many Evangelical belief systems it’s taught that you cannot trust your common sense and especially your on board conscience. You (generic you) cannot trust them because they are hopelessly sullied by ‘sin’ inherited from Adam. And they have scads of verses to ‘prove it’.

That is one part of it. Another part of it is the idea? observation? that some people apparently cannot differentiate the voice of their conscience from whatever other ‘voices’ whisper in their ear, and hence one sees people who do terrible things all the while claiming that their conscience is clear.

And yet another part of it is that some people merely use the appeal to conscience as a means to do whatever and make people ashamed for disagreeing with them, while they no more are thinking about their conscience than the man in the moon. They are pulling a complete sham.

This is seen both in forbidden sexual situations and also in shady business deals a lot.

IMO it is not necessarily the conscience which cannot be trusted but more so it is the person with the alleged conscience who cannot be trusted. When my husband did the things that he did, and we parted ways, he claimed that his conscience was clear. It probably was-people can sink to that level.

@ okrapod:

I concur. It is completely possible to go hog-wild in the other direction.

Muff Potter wrote:

Dale wrote:

I love Jesus. He is my everything.

Me too. I trust in his very person and nothing more. I hope to eat grilled fish with him one day.

‘and of a honeycomb’
(from the Holy Gospel of St. Luke 24:42)

Muff Potter wrote:

In many Evangelical belief systems it’s taught that you cannot trust your common sense and especially your on board conscience.

It may be part of the zero tolerance/zero judgement phase that Western culture seems to be going through. I’ve experienced too much institutional thinking that seeks to replace judgement with a rule book. Hence we have churches where a veteran believer with 40 years of good reputation is trumped by the 30 year old pastor who sees the Bible as a set of rules to live by.

Friend wrote:

Tina wrote:

One saying that seriously annoys me is when I hear people say, God is not allowed in schools.

Agreed… if God can be thrown out of the schools, God is not terribly powerful.

These people who complain would complain even more if the public school were to become a place where its Muslim students could openly pray.

I think people want their ‘own version’ of God and their own teachings about God to be present in the public arena;
and my goodness, the very same people spew such venom and hatred and contempt on people of other faiths …..

what they are about has nothing to do with ‘God’, no;
they are about power and control of the ‘narrative’ and there will be no pleasing them unless THEY have THEIR way. So much for prayer in the schools.

A morning ‘silent moment’ before class ??? That is different, and it can be meaningful also for every student and every teacher, yes:
‘Only in silence the Word’
(Ursula Le Guin)

@ Gram3:

What? You have never convinced an atheist of his need for Christ while cruising at 30,000 feet? That is unbelievable. I suppose also you have never witnessed to the car in the other lane while waiting at a red stoplight? Do you also pass up elevator opportunities? Doctor’s waiting room chances for a quick testimony? You have never converted the chair side assistant in the dental office while waiting for the anesthetic to take effect? I am just so disappointed to hear this.

okrapod wrote:

@ Gram3:
What? You have never convinced an atheist of his need for Christ while cruising at 30,000 feet? That is unbelievable. I suppose also you have never witnessed to the car in the other lane while waiting at a red stoplight? Do you also pass up elevator opportunities? Doctor’s waiting room chances for a quick testimony? You have never converted the chair side assistant in the dental office while waiting for the anesthetic to take effect? I am just so disappointed to hear this.

There’s a one-panel cartoon of a guy wearing an “ASK ME ABOUT JEESUS!” T-shirt saying to others:
“I wear this when I have to fly; always gives me a whole seat row to myself.”

Muff Potter wrote:

Dale wrote:
I love Jesus. He is my everything.
Me too. I trust in his very person and nothing more. I hope to eat grilled fish with him one day.

I’m going to teach him how to dredge the fish in a cornmeal, flour batter and deep fry it with taters and hush puppies. 😉

brian wrote:

I need a bit of prayer/advice. It is budget season again and part of that is advocacy. I spend pretty much 20 hours a week during this season with phone calls, reading, writing emails going to meetings and being called names. Usually not me in particular but my profession is brought into disrepute. We are lazy, liars, Satanists, Communists, Nazis, leaches….. Not everyone, not even a majority but a very vocal minority. Anyway, it hit me today after going over some issues. I don’t want to get political per rules and my deep respect for the people who run the board and all of you. My main prayer request. I am open to any changes in how to provide services, any changes that can save money but hold services at least at this level. I just need some folks to talk to about it without the rhetoric. I usually try to do all of this on my own but this year I cant. Thank you.

Praying for you. You have been through a lot in life, and you continue to put yourself at some risk to help vulnerable people. I appreciate your unique voice, your unique experience, your unique viewpoint. You are willing to ask hard questions and seek answers. All of these things make you strong and effective. Have faith in yourself and in the worth of what you do.

brian wrote:

I need a bit of prayer/advice.

Praying for you… the rest of my comment is awaiting X-ray results.

Ken G wrote:

You are confusing respect for an individual with respect for a professional opinion.

I want to question the assumption in the video and in the comments about the “professional opinion” or “usurped authority.” I do not find any reference in the actual text to professional Christians or to any kind of universal un-usurpable authority conferred on certain individuals.

I did not take the time to watch this video or its larger context. However, as a pastor (that’s my role, not my title), I would strongly disagree with the premise (whether or not it is accurately summarized here) that pastors are above confrontation. What?! I should be the FIRST one confronted if I go astray at all! If I speak heresy I could lead others astray and therefore must be corrected immediately. Just this past Sunday in between our 2 services, one of our elders suggested that something I said could have been misconstrued. I thanked him and changed my message accordingly in the second service. I often have great conversations with folks who see things slightly different than I do. Thank God for them and their correction.

For the record, my soteriology is reformed and our church reserves the role of elders for men. Some here would despise these beliefs. That’s your right, but I am trying to say that not all Calvinists are like what is often talked about on this blog. From my experience, these excesses are less common. Nevertheless I am glad whenever abuse of any kind–especially in a leader–is uncovered. Truth and love, truth and love. That’s all we have.

K.D. wrote:

I’m going to teach him how to dredge the fish in a cornmeal, flour batter and deep fry it with taters and hush puppies.

And Jesus will divide the food and it will multiply into more than enough to feed all of us – like the 5,000!
Hey, how ’bout some tater salad, white beans with ripe tomato relish, and some sweet iced tea to go with it? Maybe some fried green ‘maters, and oooo, what’s fer dessert?

okrapod wrote:

I don’t think I would confront a preacher about anything, not because I think they are exempt, but because I try to avoid them like the plague.

This belongs in Ecclesiastes.

okrapod wrote:

@ Gram3:
What? You have never convinced an atheist of his need for Christ while cruising at 30,000 feet? That is unbelievable. I suppose also you have never witnessed to the car in the other lane while waiting at a red stoplight? Do you also pass up elevator opportunities? Doctor’s waiting room chances for a quick testimony? You have never converted the chair side assistant in the dental office while waiting for the anesthetic to take effect? I am just so disappointed to hear this.

I suspect YOU are being sarcastic . . . 🙂

However, I’m also reminded of my old church, where we were “encouraged” (read: told) to “make the most of every opportunity”, which translated into “invite everyone you see to church”. I was part of weekly meetings where we WERE asked, “How many people are you inviting each day to church?” and if we weren’t, we WERE rebuked for it!

Tina wrote:

However, I’m also reminded of my old church, where we were “encouraged” (read: told) to “make the most of every opportunity”, which translated into “invite everyone you see to church”. I was part of weekly meetings where we WERE asked, “How many people are you inviting each day to church?” and if we weren’t, we WERE rebuked for it!

I’ll bet didn’t even invite your obgyn dr to church when you went for your Pap smear!

Anon in the EFCA wrote:

Some here would despise these beliefs.

I do not despise those who hold that belief since I once held that belief for the same reasons that most non subordinationists hold them. What I do despise are the beliefs that women are by nature more rebellious than men and desire to overthrow male authority. That exhibits a deep-seated contempt for women that I think many men have not faced squarely. Thankfully there are some conservative Reformed female voices that are speaking up on this issue, and I hope that some wise men will listen to them. FWIW, I do not agree with some of the strident and broad-brush criticism of Calvinism from some here. I am a Baptist, and I would not like to be measured by a few that I can think of off the top of my head…

Tina wrote:

One of them is Jeremiah 17:9–“The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?”

Yup. That one’s theeee hundred-megaton-clobber-verse that gets Hueyed (helicoptered) out of context (Hebrew Bible) every time.

Here’s another one that has gotten highly weaponized too:

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”
— Romans 7:18 —

Ken G wrote:

You are confusing respect for an individual with respect for a professional opinion. I most certainly can respect an individual and have little or no respect for their opinion about a subject matter for which they are unqualified to address. I wouldn’t necessarily respect my dentist’s opinion about plumbing and likewise I wouldn’t respect my plumber’s opinion about tooth cavities, but both are professionals and I could ask them questions in their field of expertise. As humans they both deserve respect.

I don’t think I am confusing the two things. The same respect would be given to all people in my little world, if I was at my best. I would not have different respect for a professional because he gave a professional opinion than I would for a non professional in any interaction I was having with them. A pastor is a brother/sister in Christ not, in my opinion, a professional.

@ okrapod:
That was rather robustly unwinsome 🙂

@ okrapod:
I think it is too bad that Little Okrapod had to internalize that idea and not “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.” That was not on the approved list at our most recent former church, to the best of my recollection, sadly.

Ken G wrote:

If the word “professional” is a stumbling block

Stumbling block or not, my point is that it is not a position of privilege but one of service, contra the ladies in the video and the Professional Clergy Class of all Brands. If people want to pay for services, that is fine, but saying that an Office Bearer ha an exalted position worthy of deference because the Bible says so is something else.

Ken G wrote:

If the word “professional” is a stumbling block, then a possible solution would be to find a church that doesn’t have a paid individual as the pastor.

well, vows of poverty are a feature among some in Christianity who take them, but I don’t think such people are into the pride thing that demands a recognition of superiority. Likely, such people see themselves as ‘servants of the servants of God’.

I expect there are many a pastor out there that works at a ‘day job’ to support his family and also serves a congregation. Such men seem to be ‘in it’ far more for the ‘calling’ itself than for the financial rewards being accrued by them what lives in gated communities, keeps their salaries ‘secret’ and beats the sheep who cannot afford to tithe.

Ken G wrote:

I have used the term “professional opinion” with the dictionary definition of the word “professional.” According to the dictionary, a professional is a person engaged in a specific activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as a pastime. If your pastor earns his living b

That’s a bit of a tell. Are they pastoring for the money and the rank? Are they the church presidents/CEOs? Are they looking out for themselves more so than anything or anyone else? Are they as committed to the people as much as they are the conferences and book writing and sales?

Gram3 wrote:

“Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.” That was not on the approved list at our most recent former church, to the best of my recollection, sadly.

It’s more than sad Gram3. How could the beauty and hope (faith is hope) in that child’s song be flung from approval?

@ dee:
It’s about approaching people appropriately and without malice.

In the video, the person using the theoretical airplane story seems to think that referring it to the bible will bring on some sort of “oh wow” enlightenment to the (presumably) non-christian (wrong christian?) listener.

It’s like we non-christians are just too dumb to know anything better. It’s an insult to a person’s intelligence and a definite turn off if you want to engage in any meaningful way.

Listening to these folks talk, a meaningful way appears to involve no small amount of passive aggressiveness. Just the way they talk to each other. It’s like any disagreement is distasteful. Makes me think of my mom’s “Well, you’re welcome to your opinion but…”

I know this attitude is prevalent everywhere, certainly the more aggressive atheist literature takes on this same tone. Dawkins and Hitchens more aggressive than passive.

Using the bible alone will never convince anyone that your faith is the right faith or that your church is the right church. Actions speak louder than words. I shared a story about my wife’s aunt who was the first Christian in her family coming from a Muslim/Buddhist background. Bible verses alone did not facilitate that conversion. A caring community did, a community that saw her as a person, not a number.

okrapod wrote:

@ Tina:
I have never been in a situation where people had to account for how many ‘contacts’ they made or where anybody was rebuked for it one way or the other. I have seriously heard it recommended that people use every available opportunity to ‘witness’. And I have hear some pretty outlandish stories of some witnessing activities of the weird kind.

I heard a few stories about “weird” witnessing activities during my days in my old church.

I heard of someone that decided to fast until he shared his faith (i.e. invited someone to church.) He fasted for EIGHT DAYS.

I heard about a group of guys that made it their goal to share their faith with everyone they made eye contact with.

I attended a movie with a group of Christians where one of the people with us started to stand up and preach at the very end, inviting everyone to church. The movie was The Mission (with Robert DeNiro) and the person doing the inviting was one of the ministers (we knew in advance that he was going to do that.)

A church in London, England that was part of the group of churches I was part of invented the term “tubing”. A group of Christians would get on the tube (the Underground) and then the tube would start, the Christians would start handing out cards inviting people to church. And such behavior was applauded by those in leadership. If you did it, you were “bold” and “evangelistic” and held in high esteem.

From CBMW, June 2016:
Practical Guidelines for Pastors (“teaching the beauty of complementarity” – there is a video on the page)
http://cbmw.org/uncategorized/practical-guidelines-for-pastors/

How ought pastors teach on the beauty of complementarity? Ligon Duncan gives 8 ways.

“You have to teach and preach on these issues. If you fail to address this with an ordinary diet of pastoral ministry in the local congregation, we lose on this issue.”

Watch the video above for more.

Nancy2 wrote:

Maybe some fried green ‘maters, and oooo, what’s fer dessert?

Dessert? I’m thinkin’ rhubarb pie. The rhubarb grown in the rich black loam of Southeastern Wisconsin. It’s a long time favorite where I’m originally from.
And yeah those fried green tomatoes sound scrum-dilly too!

Christiane wrote:

Was there a final ‘last straw’?

Yes. We were excommunicated. Or, as I call it, keyed out. Same thing.

@ Christiane:
Yes, and I think that other people feel the same way when they have been excommunicated from various ‘churches’ for various reasons other than children’s songs throughout history, too. Fact is, the institutional church often does not honor her Lord because the institutional church has become drawn away by a lust for power and fame and money. Some things just never change, unfortunately. But God is no bound by human failure, thankfully.

Tina wrote:

I heard about a group of guys that made it their goal to share their faith with everyone they made eye contact with.

“Just keep walking… DON’T make eye contact…”

okrapod wrote:

Darlene wrote:
By the way…Should I go grocery shopping at Weis or Whole Foods? Is there a verse somewhere about that?
Go to the one that is farthest away.
Proverbs 31:14

Isn’t this fun? It could be a TV game.

What color should you wear?

Purple! Proverbs 31: 19 (ish)

@ dee:

“I prefer to interact with the comments and the wonderful people behind the comments. I love dialoging. I think everyone gets more out of that then just a lecture-no matter how good.”
++++++++++++++++++++

yes. so very much. i am so surprised the ‘sermon’ model is still being perpetuated as the norm. i think it is an example of perpetuating tradition for its own sake, sort of mindlessly, without considering if it’s even worthwhile or necessary.

if it is meant for learning, there are better ways. but i don’t think the sermon is altogether about learning/teaching. i believe that behind it are things like:

*checking off a box on the duties list so as to fulfill expectations (expectations mindlessly held)

*checking off a box on the biblical list (the bible says words like sermon, preach, preacher — wow, 3 biblical boxes get to be checked each week!)

*showmanship

*for the ‘audience’ (that’s what it is, an audience), it is a unique experience in a busy, tiring week where you can sit in warm place with nice people who are friendly to you, and you don’t have to do anything. it meets some social needs without having to do anything. you can zone out, daydream, doze, let your eyes unfocus and just be…. and all the while feel like you’re earning god points.

@ mot:

“I would quickly add these SBC leaders and pastors hate any man that will tell them they are wrong about women in the church.”
++++++++++++++++

they are the ones who will be marginalized more and more until they occupy this small reinforced bunker. which they will do as a badge of honor, believing they are earning the place of honor of nearness to God’s throne in heaven when they get there.

meanwhile, those on the outside will be engaging more and more productively and humanely.

women are storehouses of knowledge, understanding, wisdom. they have a huge variety of skills, are multi-tasking wonders. women easily and quickly see the big picture, what’s needed, what’s not needed, what’s not needed, what’s advantageous and what’s not, what’s stupid and what’s not, what is the shortest distance between 2 points and how to get there well.

only a fool would say no.

@ elastigirl:
they seem to have energetically and purposefully wandered from their ‘first love’

a new god they make? a golden male calf?

@ Lea:

“I think folks like this should ask themselves why they are so unwilling to blame david for his own sin? Why they are so unwilling to accept that he was the one in the wrong. Completely”
+++++++++++++++++++++

hmmmm… i don’ think natural-born d|ckheads are good at that.

@ Nancy2:

“The smiles on those women’s faces in the video ……. is it just me ……….. or do they look sooooooo fake?”
++++++++++

i suspect they’re just giddy that they were finally given the mic.

to be jane austenish about it, delighted with the condescension.

@ mot:

“The last few times I attended a Southern Baptist Sunday School class it appeared to me the Sunday School literature has been designed for a lecture approach and not a discussion approach.”
+++++++++++++

(i’m catching up by reading down from the top… finding lots to respond to)

my kid’s teen-age sunday school has become exactly this. they hate it. it is pointless for them. they no longer want to go. they get lectures all during the week — 7 of them a day. every 45 minutes, a new lecture. they’re sick of it. the last thing they need or want is a lecture about God.

(ha — is it about God? or is it about all the things they can’t do and all the things they have to do, and the highly prescriptive way to do it? too riddled with nonsense for me to even want them to go anymore)

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Darlene wrote: “Max, I think it’s because these folks seem themselves to be Culture Warriors. In their world, Feminism is to blame on most of the ills in our society. Their cure is Biblical Gender Roles. If women today just knew their place, we could go back to the Good Old Days when men were in charge.”

Headless Unicorn Guy said, “Thought Experiment: Substitute “The Jews” or “Infidels” or “Yankee Imperialists” for “Feminism” and see where the rabbit hole goes.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

good comment. you quick-crystallized my slowly congealing thoughts for me. no need to invoke Godwin’s Law.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

Problem: What if that pastor, whom you want to question, gets to decide what “respectful” means? And what if he’s decided that no questioning can be “respectful”?

Solution: Find another church.

Nancy2 wrote:

The best church pastor I’ve ever known did not call themselves “professionals”: they called themselves servants, and behaved accordingly.

That may be true, but if they earn their living from being a pastor they are “professionals” according to the dictionary regardless of what they may call themselves.

@ elastigirl:

I can see why the sermon in a large church is not discussion based. But sunday school? Teaching and discussion work so well in that format!

Lea wrote:

@ elastigirl:

I can see why the sermon in a large church is not discussion based. But sunday school? Teaching and discussion work so well in that format!

I do not think the SBC leaders trust the Sunday School members to discuss the scriptures particularly the women. I just do not get their strategy at all.

Ken G wrote:

Nancy2 wrote:

The best church pastor I’ve ever known did not call themselves “professionals”: they called themselves servants, and behaved accordingly.

That may be true, but if they earn their living from being a pastor they are “professionals” according to the dictionary regardless of what they may call themselves.

Why are you so hung up about the dictionaries definition?

@ elastigirl:

It’s crazy insane to me anymore.

@ mot:
well, he may be focusing on the origin of the word, which when first used meant a profession of religious vows publicly

it is also a synonym for a ‘calling’

Gram3 wrote:

Can anyone summarize what these ladies actually said? I think they ended up saying something like “It’s all there in the Bible” or something like that. I’m trying to get the point of their video (if there really is one.)

If you’re correcting someone outside of the church, “be bold”. If an authority figure in the church needs correcting, think hard about it and maybe just change churches.

@ siteseer:
@ siteseer:
Thanks. TgC could use your editing skills.

elastigirl wrote:

my kid’s teen-age sunday school has become exactly this. they hate it. it is pointless for them. they no longer want to go. they get lectures all during the week — 7 of them a day. every 45 minutes, a new lecture. they’re sick of it. the last thing they need or want is a lecture about God.

I found that my church and Sunday school was not teaching or educating the congregation. They were all about indoctrination. I got sick of it and was able to enroll in a course on Romans at a near by bible institute. I think I learned more taking that one course than I could ever learn at church.

Gram3 wrote:

I imagine that these ladies are quite intelligent and it is a pity that they are wasting their abilities in service to false teaching which is actually not found in the text. Ironically.

In their world, intelligence and gifting have nothing whatsoever to do with it. It’s determined solely by plumbing received at birth.
Here’s a youtube vid on a segment of the senior pastor’s conference held in Philadelphia. One of the big honchos relates an anecdote of an exchange he had with the founder’s (Papa Chuck) wife who happened to be teaching a women’s Bible study at the time.
It starts getting really poignant at about the 5:55 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSKU2GA4mrc

siteseer wrote:

And listening to the same few basic messages over and over again, really. Week after week, year after year, decade after decade…

“Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”
— Reichsminister Josef Goebbels

mot wrote:

Those guys in that video stink on every level. These men need to quit limiting how God wants to use women.

What did you expect from Calvary Chapel?

I’m uploading this comment less than 20 miles/30km from CC’s Vatican in “Costa Lotta”. When I was in-country circa 1980, CC dominated Christianese AM airwaves; to the point non-denom “Fellowships” were nothing more than CCs with the labels painted over. There was literally No Salvation Outside of Calvary Chapel/Papa Chuck. And to me, CC distilled down and concentrated all the ways Fundagelicanism could go wrong.

“I grew up in King’s Landing.”
— Maester Aemon Targeryn, Game of Thrones

mot wrote:

Those guys in that video stink on every level. These men need to quit limiting how God wants to use women.

It’s not just CC. Listen to/read Moore, Piper, Mohler, Patterson, Keller, Duncan, every SBC leader …….. God doesn’t use women. God made women for men to use. It appears to me that there is no direct link between God and women. Everything women do in the churches and in the family has to be either ordered or approved by the men.
Oh, they won’t say it so directly ….. flowery words, and all that ….. but if you (generic) really listen and use just a small portion of your brain, it’s easy to tell what they mean.

Nancy2 wrote:

It’s not just CC. Listen to/read Moore, Piper, Mohler, Patterson, Keller, Duncan, every SBC leader ……

No it’s not just Calvary Chapel. And I think it was Dr. Fundy who originally said that Arminian fundagelicalism and Neo-Cal fundagelicalism are kissin’ cousins, and that any purported ‘differences’ are purely cosmetic.

mot wrote:

Those guys in that video stink on every level. These men need to quit limiting how God wants to use women.

Those guys are the last of the old guard in the Calvary Chapel brand. They are fast fading into the sunset. Early on in the vid, one of the big honchos is up front about it and says that the Bible teaches no wimminz in the pulpit period, no ifs, no ands, and no buts.
These guys sincerely believe that Paul’s alleged ‘command’ (1 Timothy 2:12) is directly from the Lord Jesus himself and not to be thought of in any other fashion.

I’m an optimist and believe that the days of this teaching are numbered in the CC brand and it will not see the 22nd century. If history is any teacher at all, Southern Baptists eventually gave up the idea that it’s perfectly okay to own slaves, and as new and younger blood moves into the upper leadership cadre of CC, cognitive dissonance will do its thing, and they will no longer keep gifted and talented women out of the pulpit.

elastigirl wrote:

i am tired, so tired, of panels that are all-men. Boards and committees and leadership teams that are all men. i love men just as much as i love any and all human beings. but come now, is homogeneity ever a good thing?

I’m just saying, if they are talking about viruses or something I don’t care who they are, male/female, black white or purple if they know their stuff.

That’s not what this is, though. Especially when women are being specifically excluded from this ‘role’ (their favorite word!) of preaching/teaching because of gender, by men who have specifically chosen to exclude from this role.

@ Muff Potter:

“Those guys are the last of the old guard in the Calvary Chapel brand. They are fast fading into the sunset.

…as new and younger blood moves into the upper leadership cadre of CC, cognitive dissonance will do its thing, and they will no longer keep gifted and talented women out of the pulpit.”
+++++++++++++++++++

i see this greater subject as similar to the human beings getting taller with each generation (at least i think they are). better nutrition, better health care, more circumspect understanding of this/that/& the other as it pertains to life and what is life-giving.

to me it’s so dang obvious — subjugation of human beings, benevolent or not, is not life-giving (except to the subjugator, of course). is not progress. is not for the greater good.

that christian gender rolesians miss this is just…. don’t know whether laugh or cry.

….but this old news.

elastigirl wrote:

subjugation of human beings, benevolent or not, is not life-giving (except to the subjugator, of course). is not progress. is not for the greater good.

And it has never, NEVER, not been abused.

Witness all of human history.

mot wrote:

Particularly as a Pastor in the SBC you do not publicly go against this or you will lose your pastoral position.

Which is why, among other things, Russell Moore is no hero. People who see him as some sort of blend of Nathan and Mr. Smith are viewing him through a very narrow lens. He is a totalist on his issues, and if you disagree with him on patriarchy, you are zero. If you are a woman, you are zero, despite his folksy style.

Russell Moore and everyone else who claims to be from the free church tradition just needs to keep their political opinions out of the pulpit and out of the media. And I think that the ERLC has gone way beyond the mission of cooperative missions envisioned by Southern Baptists and needs to be de-commisioned.

Muff Potter wrote:

Nancy2 wrote:
It’s not just CC. Listen to/read Moore, Piper, Mohler, Patterson, Keller, Duncan, every SBC leader ……
No it’s not just Calvary Chapel. And I think it was Dr. Fundy who originally said that Arminian fundagelicalism and Neo-Cal fundagelicalism are kissin’ cousins, and that any purported ‘differences’ are purely cosmetic.

Make sure to toss the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches (Jack Schaap anyone?) in that mix.

I always thought church leaders were the ones who were supposed to be especially subject to correction, rebuked in the presence of all, prophets subject to the prophets, Paul’s public in you face refutation of Peter, etc. etc.

The problem with these people is they just don’t care jack squat about the Bible. Either than, or they have utter contempt for it when they cannot twist it round to making them gods and making Jesus nothing.

Peter was the head of the church. In fact many considered Peter the first pope. Peter was there with Jesus for the whole 3 years of ministry. And Peter was the only one who walked on water. Peter did many other signs and wonders from the power of God. No one in the church had more authority than Peter.

Then we have Paul who was a “newer” Christian. In fact he was at one time an enemy of the church. It was the grace of Jesus that changed Paul. And it was the mercy of the Church that forgive Paul and bring him into fellowship.

So what happened when Peter start teaching falsehood?

Paul: But when Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he [i]stood condemned. (Galatians 2:11)

Oh but that’s just Paul. He isn’t Jesus. What did Jesus do?

The leaders of the temple (or church) at the time was the Pharisees. They “deserve” all respect. They have all authority. No one can challenge them.

Jesus was a no body. He didn’t have any authority in the temple system. In fact the only reason the Pharisees pay attention to Jesus was because Jesus draw a crowd by his love.

So what did Jesus do when the Pharisees preach falsehood? Let us “watch” Matthew 23.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3ZArH1K8gE

So Paul withstood against Peter when Peter taught falsehood. And Jesus withstood against Pharisees when they preached falsehood. Is it clear now that position and authority in the church means nothing. Everyone is accountable to be corrected and disciplined, if they preach falsehood.

Neo-Calvinists themselves always say that there are plenty of false teachers around. Ok so think about this. But they also say members cannot challenge false teachers, because false teachers are pastors. And at the same time members are, of course, not allowed to spread any gossip against these false teachers. Then how does the members protect each other against false teachers? Neo-Calvinists contradict themselves!

Of course Neo-Calvinist defend this by saying that false teachers only exist outside of neo-Calvinist churches. Inside neo-Calvinist churches all teachers are 100% correct 100% of the time, so there is really no need to correct the pastors inside neo-Calvinist churches.

Wait! Does this really make any sense to you? No one is perfect except Jesus. Neo-Calvinists agree to that. So of course neo-Calvinist pastors can make mistakes and preach falsehood. So they need to be corrected. Think think think!

I just want neo-Calvinists to think. All that I just wrote, are they from God or are they from Satan? Everyone must pray and decide for themselves.