Ignite: Remove Alleged Rapist, Ben Roethlisberger, and Joe White, Who Is Being Sued for Child Sex Abuse Cover Up, From the Speaker Lineup!

"Wise leaders generally have wise counselors because it takes a wise person themselves to distinguish them." –Diogenes of Sinope link

It is beyond imagining why Liberty University would allow Ben Roethlisberger (from now on referred to as BR) to headline Ignite, a men's conference. Also, one might question why any of these speakers would agree to appear on the same stage with BR. Ignite claims the following: 

Imagine joining 10,000 men—fathers, sons, brothers, seekers and Christ-followers—coming together to worship God and learn more about the life of true adventure He intends for us.

Even more, imagine a two-day event packed full of workshops, exhibits, and fun around the stuff that men love: hunting, fishing, football, motorcycles, racing, extreme sports, and other outdoor activities—featuring some of the leading experts in the world.

Welcome to Ignite Men’s Impact Weekend Conference! After years of perfecting our men’s impact weekend, we have landed on a unique format that helps men align their everyday passions with God’s eternal purpose. We are here to take on the everyday challenges that men face—a godless culture, fatherlessness, broken relationships, and the lack of male leadership in the Church. This ground- breaking, extreme weekend is scheduled for March 17-18, 2017 at the Liberty University Vines Center in Lynchburg, Virginia.

This blurb mentions aligning men's passions with God's eternal purpose. Are claims of rape part of that purpose? 

It is interesting to note that this event was organized by Tim Clinton who is the current president of the American Association of Christian Counselors. Is this how Christian counselors view rape?

Who is Ben Roethlisberger?

According to Wikipedia

Benjamin Todd Roethlisberger Sr. (/ˈrɒθlᵻsbɜːrɡər/; born March 2, 1982), nicknamed Big Ben, is an American football quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers of the National Football League (NFL). He played college football at Miami University (Ohio), and was drafted by the Steelers in the first round (11th overall) of the 2004 NFL Draft.

Roethlisberger earned the AP NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year Award in 2004 and his first Pro Bowl selection in 2007. He became the youngest Super Bowl-winning quarterback in NFL history, leading the Steelers, in only his second professional season, to a 21–10 victory over the Seattle Seahawks in Super Bowl XL at the age of 23. Roethlisberger led the Steelers to a second Super Bowl title in four seasons as they defeated the Arizona Cardinals in Super Bowl XLIII, 27–23, after completing a game-winning touchdown pass to Santonio Holmes with 35 seconds left in the game.

Roethlisberger has been one of the most efficient passers in NFL history. He currently ranks 9th all-time in NFL passer rating (94.0), tied for 6th in yards per attempt (7.93), and tied for 10th in completion percentage (63.85%) among quarterbacks with a minimum of 1,500 career attempts. He has the fourth highest career winning percentage (.710) as a starter in the regular season among quarterbacks with a minimum of 100 starts. He is one of six quarterbacks in NFL history to have beaten at least 31 of the current NFL teams.[1]

The troubling history of rape allegations against Ben Roethlisberger 

In a paper, Without Consequence: When Professional Athletes Are Violent Off the Field by Bethany Withers, the situation surrounding Roethlisberger is well outlined. The link is to the full paper which examines many allegation of various palyers. Wither is a graduate of Harvard Law School whose goal was to 

examine league treatment of MLB, NBA, and NFL players who have been accused of domestic violence or sexual assault.

The following are excerpts, provided by a reader, from that paper.  These deal specifically with the accusations and events  surrounding Ben Roethlisberger.

It is important to note that the author alleges that BR could be a serial rapist. Also,Sgt Jerry Blash, who interviewed one of the victims, admitted to calling her *a drunken bitch* and eventually resigned from the force.


Begin:

Excerpts from:
WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE: WHEN PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES ARE VIOLENT OFF THE FIELD
6 Harv. J. Sports & Ent. L. 373
Harvard Journal of Sports & Entertainment Law
Spring, 2015
by Bethany P. Withers

(I have added extra breaks and some highlighting to make reading on a blog easier. No words have been changed.)

While most people remember the headlines regarding an alleged sexual assault committed by Roethlisberger against a Georgia college student, the details of the Roethlisberger case are important–including, for instance, that he has reportedly also been accused of sexual assault on three other occasions. He was publicly accused of sexual assault by a woman in Nevada-the prosecutor declined to press charges on her behalf, so she initiated a civil suit.69 In addition, two other sexual assault accusations surfaced against Roethlisberger that were not as publicized, given the accusers’ reluctance to come forward to the police or to initiate a civil suit.70

The much publicized Georgia case against Roethlisberger was mishandled at best, and a total failure of the justice system allowing a serial rapist to continue playing professional football at worst. In the case against Roethlisberger, a Georgia college student was at a bar with her sorority sisters, allegedly led down to a bathroom by Roethlisberger’s bodyguards *391 and then raped by Roethlisberger. The alleged victim immediately reported the rape and Sergeant Jerry Blash conducted the initial interviews–he was the only individual to interview Roethlisberger and he was the officer to whom the accuser made her initial report and, as such, would ordinarily be a key witness in her case, as he could attest to her condition and what was said immediately after the alleged assault.

Blash had been pictured smiling with the quarterback earlier in the evening and was overheard by multiple witnesses calling the accuser a “drunken bitch” and saying, “This pisses me off, that women can do this,” statements which Blash later admitted making.71 He also discouraged her from reporting the rape and immediately notified Roethlisberger of the allegation.72 Further, he coordinated with the off-duty police officer and state trooper that served as Roethlisberger’s bodyguards that night.73 Blash has since resigned from the Milledgeville police force.74 The crime scene was never sealed off and, twelve hours after the incident, the club’s janitor swabbed the bathroom with Clorox and Pine-Sol.75

Georgia District Attorney Fred Bright was in charge of examining the evidence and concluding whether it was sufficient for the state to press charges against Roethlisberger. In the press conference in which Bright announced his decision not to press charges, he stressed the accuser’s intoxication and her inconsistent statements. Bright mentioned Roethlisberger’s drunken state only once when he said “[b]oth parties had been drinking alcohol.”76 Bright overlooked the botched investigation and Blash’s biased statements and neglected to recount the accuser’s version of events, as well as her sorority sisters’ eyewitness accounts.

As revealed in the report by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, which investigated the Georgia allegations along with the Milledgeville police force, the accuser said that one of Roethlisberger’s two bodyguards, later identified as police officer Anthony Barravecchio, escorted her into a hallway and sat her on a stool, at which point Roethlisberger walked down the hallway and exposed himself.77 It was at this point that she said it wasn’t okay, tried to leave, and went to the first door she saw, which happened to be a bathroom– Roethlisberger followed her into the bathroom, shut the door, *392 and then, allegedly, had sex with her against her will.78 Her friend, Nicole Biancofiore said that she saw the accuser “dragged by a bodyguard to the back room.”79

Two other friends said they saw the bodyguard lead the accuser down the hallway and knew she was drunk and were worried about her.80 Ann Marie Lubatti claims she approached one of Roethlisberger’s two bodyguards and said, “This isn’t right. My friend is back there with Ben. She needs to come back right now.”81 According to her, the bodyguard, later identified as Pennsylvania state trooper Ed Joyner, would not look her in the eye. Upon questioning, Bright conceded that the accuser’s friends said they spoke to one of the bodyguards in an effort to get their friend from the bathroom and that he would not look at them.82

Further, he said that the accuser’s friends confronted the manager who “basically said, look, he’s an NFL quarterback with the Steelers–something to that effect–he’s not going to risk his career doing anything foolish.”83 After the accuser reported the alleged assault to the police, she then went to the hospital and the examination showed lacerations, bruising, and bleeding in her genital area, though the doctor indicated that he could not conclusively say if these resulted from trauma or sexual assault.

Roethlisberger was never prosecuted–a discouraging outcome, given that many rape victims (a) do not immediately report to the police, (b) do not go to the hospital, (c) lack evidence of physical trauma to the genital area (whether conclusive or not) and (d) are not raped in public places with multiple witness accounts as to suspicious behavior of the alleged rapist. This evidence provides valuable insight into the events that occurred that night, and more evidence than many other rape victims have when faced with the decision of whether to report a sexual assault. If this allegation of rape does not lead to prosecution in a court of law, it is not hard to figure out why so few women report rape.

*396 As discussed previously, the fact that Roethlisberger’s two bodyguards, Barravecchio and Joyner, were an off-duty police officer and state trooper responsible for leading the alleged victim to the bathroom and then barring her sorority sisters from assisting her indicates some level of complicity–at the very least, they knew they were facilitating some sort of private interaction, likely sexual, between Roethlisberger and a drunk, underage woman whose friends were concerned for her. At the worst …

The formal relationship between Roethlisberger’s bodyguards and law enforcement (and other bodyguards and team security with law enforcement) underlies and informs the bias that police officers have exhibited in favor of professional athletes accused of domestic violence and sexual assault. Roethlisberger’s bodyguards were not the only biased witnesses on hand when, and shortly after, the alleged attack occurred–witnesses claim that Sergeant Jerry Blash demonstrated little patience with the alleged victim, allegedly saying, “You can file a statement but this man has a lot of money and good attorneys.”102

After the accusation was made, Blash warned Roethlisberger and his bodyguards, telling Barravecchio, “We have a problem, this drunken bitch, drunk off her ass, is accusing Ben of rape.”103 He told Joyner, “There is no way it could have happened.”104 Former District Attorney J. Tom Morgan observed, “With that kind of attitude, what victim would want to go through with a prosecution? … After the way she was treated, it was going to be hard to move forward with this case.”105

End


However, many believed that BR should have been held to account. Even BR seemed to admit he was out of line. In Ben Roethlisberger's ban at 4 games:

In that one-on-one meeting, which took place at Westchester County Airport, about 30 miles north of the NFL offices in Manhattan, Roethlisberger was contrite and real, a source with knowledge of the meeting told ESPN's Sal Paolantonio. Then Goodell informed Roethlisberger that the suspension would be reduced — but that Roethlisberger must continue to avoid any further violations of the personal conduct policy.

Roethlisberger was suspended in April for violating the league's personal conduct policy, but Goodell said at the time he would review the player's behavior over the next few months. Goodell was satisfied that the quarterback has followed the league's guidelines and stayed out of trouble.

"I have learned a lot over the past several months about myself as a person," Roethlisberger said in a statement. "I am committed to continuing on this path of being the type of person my family raised me to be, and exceeding what is expected of me as the quarterback of the Pittsburgh Steelers."

…Roethlisberger is the first player suspended by Goodell under the NFL's personal conduct policy who was not arrested, charged with or convicted of a crime. However, Goodell said in April the policy allows him to impose such a penalty when the league's integrity and reputation are at stake.

In another article, BR's actions were criticized.  'Grow up,' DA tells Roethlisberger while announcing decision not to prosecute rape case

"Everybody could be criticized for their actions that night. I'm not condoning what he did," Mr. Bright said. "There was too much drinking going on. If he were my son, [I would say], 'Ben, grow up. Come on, you're supposed to stand for something. I mean, you're a leader, you should be a role model. You don't need to put yourself in this position anymore."

In that same article, a statement was made that should have put the kibosh on BR speaking at a Christian men's conference.

We do not prosecute morals," Mr. Bright said. "We prosecute crimes."

Just in case you want to see Roethlisberger during the time of this incident, here is a link to him partying with the woman in question, wearing a Satan tee shirt. This is a Christian role model for men? 

BR was accused of rape in 2008 and settled out of court.

From Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger settles lawsuit with woman who claims he lured her into his hotel suite and raped her:

Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger and a woman who accused him of raping her at a Lake Tahoe hotel-casino in 2008 have reached a settlement, ending her civil suit against him.

Andrea McNulty, a former VIP hostess at Harrah’s Lake Tahoe casino hotel, accused the Super Bowl star of luring her into his penthouse suite and forcing her to have sex with him.

…David Cornwell, Roethlisberger's lawyer, did not immediately return a telephone call seeking comment on Friday. His agent, Ryan Tollner, said neither he nor Roethlisberger would have any comment.

A third accuser comes forward

According to A THIRD ROETHLISBERGER ACCUSER?

On Friday, ABC News reported a third woman has told police that Roethlisberger sexually accosted her while drunk, according to a police report.

…Police contacted the woman, but she declined to press charges and asked that her name not be released. Her name was blacked out in department documents.

According to the police report, the woman said she drove an inebriated Roethlisberger home from a party and helped him into his bedroom. When she tried to leave, he slammed the door shut and pulled down his pants, the police report stated.

The report does not state when the alleged incident occurred.

A week later, Roethlisberger invited the woman to a party at his home, according to the police document. He showed her his new bed and asked her to lie down on it, the report stated.

“During this, Roethlisberger was allegedly forceful with … and put his hand up …. skirt. Eventually … was able to push Roethlisberger’s hand away and … went to leave the residence. As she left, Roethlisberger allegedly became angry with …. ,” the police report stated.

Like the other Georgia incident, the woman and her family declined to press charges.

Adding insult to injury,  Joe White, who is fending off charges that Kanakuk failed to protect a number of children from sex abuse, is also headlining Ignite.

Full disclosure: Two of my children attended Kanakuk when the abuse was occurring. They were girls and the abuser preferred boys. My son refused to go. He was smarter than his mom but at least I didn't make him go.

I have been contacted by some of the victims' families and expect that there will be an incredible amount of disturbing information coming out in the near future.

Judge to Kanakuk's Joe White: Stay away from sex abuse victim

The e-mails, phone calls, letters, and packages have added to the boy's "emotional and psychological problems that stem from his sexual abuse," the motion said.

The $10 million lawsuit against White, Newman, and Kanakuk alleges that Newman's sexual assault of the boy and others came after White ignored obvious danger signals and allowed Newman to continue working with young boys.

Newman is serving two life sentences, plus 30 years, after pleading guilty last year to several sex crimes involving teenage boys.

Ignite appears to show concerning disregard for the safety and well being of women and children by the speaker lineup.

This conference is not teaching anyone how to be a leader in the home or Christian community. Whoever agreed to this lineup has a lot to learn. It is doubly concerning that Christian counselors would consider this line up as healthy Christian leadership. Just because a guy can throw a ball does not make him a leader or a Christian.

Please do not allow Ben Roethlisberger and Joe White to speak. If you do, we will know that you are not serious about protecting women and children from abusers.

Readers: Please feel free to contact the phone number on the picture at the top of the post to express your concern about the speakers for Ignite. I have left a message fo Dr Tim Clinton, the head of the Christian counseling association.


Comments

Ignite: Remove Alleged Rapist, Ben Roethlisberger, and Joe White, Who Is Being Sued for Child Sex Abuse Cover Up, From the Speaker Lineup! — 392 Comments

  1. “Everybody could be criticized for their actions that night. I’m not condoning what he did,” Mr. Bright said. “There was too much drinking going on. If he were my son, [I would say], ‘Ben, grow up. Come on, you’re supposed to stand for something. I mean, you’re a leader, you should be a role model. You don’t need to put yourself in this position anymore.”

    Just how could the girl be criticized for her actions? Drinking isn’t a crime!

    According to the witness, she was dragged to the back, tried to leave, was followed, and locked in, then raped. Maybe drinking too much isn’t always wise, but I can’t see how she did anything wrong. But everybody else involved certainly did something wrong!

  2. I am sick to death of professional athletes and celebrities getting a pass on their bad behavior. They have this mind set that no one can do anything to me. I’m a star and who is going to stop me. Then they top it all off by saying “I’m a Christian, and I’m forgiven”. I don’t want any of them near me or my female friends or family members. Get thee behind me satan!!

  3. I predict that the show will go on as usual. These kind of testosterone glorifying conferences have no shame. It’s all about promoting the brand – the manly-man, Christian dude who must profess his manliness by doing all those manly things. It’s Mark Driscoll Christianity. I wonder what they think of men who write beautiful poetry, paint/sculpt beautiful pieces of art, cook exquisite meals, and a host of other things that aren’t on that manly to-do list.

  4. Darlene wrote:

    I predict that the show will go on as usual. These kind of testosterone glorifying conferences have no shame. It’s all about promoting the brand – the manly-man, Christian dude who must profess his manliness by doing all those manly things. It’s Mark Driscoll Christianity. I wonder what they think of men who write beautiful poetry, paint/sculpt beautiful pieces of art, cook exquisite meals, and a host of other things that aren’t on that manly to-do list.

    There probably will be very little about living like Jesus in this life. I guess people just turn their brains off when it comes to these “events.’

  5. Uhhhh, you would think that Ignite organizers could have found some men with a better Christian background than some of these characters. Perhaps they should leave God and Christian living out of the promotion for this event and simply bill it “Where Men and the Outdoors Come Together.”

    In addition to Roethlisberger and White, Tony Stewart is well-known for his bad temper on the Nascar circuit – not exactly a role model for conference attendees. And, of course, some of us have problems with the culturally-relevant theology packed by the token New Calvinist who will be on stage, J.D. Greear. I suppose I’m just an old fuddy-duddy, but I also have problems with Christian comedians such as Dennis Swanberg … in these desperate times, the church needs to be praying not laughing. But, considering the condition of the church in America, I’m sure that thousands of churchmen will be bused in for the event and will have a rip-roaring time of “Christian” entertainment.

  6. I’m a big Steelers fan …. learned the game of football in the Mean Joe Green-Franco Harris-Lynn Swan-Terry Bradshaw era. That said, BR has no business being a featured speaker at a “Christian” men’s retreat. Even though I don’t want the allegations against him to be true (hey, he is a Steeler), but there is just too much evidence to the contrary.
    Sports organizations and universities, especially those universities that call themselves “Christian”, even churches, seem to be committed to protecting the reputations of men with total disregard to the damage done to women and children. As the case against BR proves, some law officers even jump on the team bandwagon ……. A united front dedicated to letting men do as they please with no repercussions. WHAT.SO.EVER! Christian, my foot!
    Uhh, how long is that list, now?
    Dethrone the abusers!
    I would like to say a lot more, but my temper is getting the best of me……. most of my thoughts would not be constructive.

  7. Darlene wrote:

    It’s Mark Driscoll Christianity.

    Yep, a display of “holy” testosterone and dude-bros lovin’ on each other. They will be fueled up during their time together to go back to their home churches and subordinate women.

  8. Max wrote:

    Tony Stewart is well-known for his bad temper on the Nascar circuit

    For sure! I used to follow NASCAR closely. My all-time fave: Mark Martin ….. never heard an ugly word come from his mouth. Tony Stewart would have made a sailor blush.

  9. “Even more, imagine a two-day event packed full of workshops, exhibits, and fun around the stuff that men love: hunting, fishing, football, motorcycles, racing, extreme sports, and other outdoor activities—featuring some of the leading experts in the world.

    Welcome to Ignite Men’s Impact Weekend Conference! After years of perfecting our men’s impact weekend, we have landed on a unique format that helps men align their everyday passions with God’s eternal purpose. We are here to take on the everyday challenges that men face—a godless culture, fatherlessness, broken relationships, and the lack of male leadership in the Church.”

    While there is no excuse for inviting a rapist to speak at this conference, it has been proven that having an individual who covers up the sexual abuse of children as a featured speaker at a Christian conference is not only acceptable, a guy like Al Mohler can even make jokes about it. (CJ Mahaney ar T4G.)

    I believe we have had quite enough of this manly-man theme in Christianity. It is damaging.

    You may also wish to voice a complaint with the sponsors of this conference, one of whom is the SBC of Virginia.

    “Minutes of the meeting show that he accepted that Mr Smyth had beaten boys with a wooden bat, showered with them, and encouraged them to swim naked.

    The documents, now disputed by Mr Colman, record him saying that “the beatings and nudity were justified in the context of a weak church; Zambesi Ministries was aimed at portraying Christianity as a rugged, manly religion”.”

    https://goodnessandharmony.wordpress.com/2017/02/02/christian-crusader-john-smyth-in-teen-abuse-scandal-son-pj-smyth-heads-us-megachurch-embroiled-in-sex-scandal/@ ishy:

  10. “imagine a two-day event packed full of workshops, exhibits, and fun around the stuff that men love: hunting, fishing, football, motorcycles, racing, extreme sports, and other outdoor activities — featuring some of the leading experts in the world.”

    Or better yet, imagine a two-day event packed full of the stuff that God loves: humility, prayer, repentance, and seeking His face – featuring some of the most Godly men in the world.

    God, forgive us for substituting the best things with things of the world … for focusing on ourselves and not You.

  11. Max wrote:

    the token New Calvinist who will be on stage, J.D. Greear.

    He loves CJ Mahaney and recommends his books.

  12. The ad:

    “WHERE MEN, GOD, LIFE, AND THE OUTDOORS COME TOGETHER.”

    Really, … God will show up at this event? D’ya think?

  13. JYJames wrote:

    The ad:
    “WHERE MEN, GOD, LIFE, AND THE OUTDOORS COME TOGETHER.”
    Really, … God will show up at this event? D’ya think?

    Their god will. (Take notice of the lower case ‘g’)

  14. @ Darlene:
    A chance to spend time together before Eternity seals the deal.

    Back when church scandals (such as Jimmy Swaggart’s) were breaking news, a teen in the youth group commented, “I guess I’m opting for h-ll, since it looks like heaven will be a Christian or-gy, … all of that togetherness ‘in the name of G-d.'”

  15. Darlene wrote:

    I predict that the show will go on as usual. These kind of testosterone glorifying conferences have no shame. It’s all about promoting the brand – the manly-man, Christian dude who must profess his manliness by doing all those manly things.

    Like rape.

  16. Max wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    It’s Mark Driscoll Christianity.

    Yep, a display of “holy” testosterone and dude-bros lovin’ on each other.

    But NOT Homosexual(TM) lovin’, just Manly-Man on Manly-Man.

  17. dee wrote:

    He loves CJ Mahaney and recommends his books.

    The New Calvinists promote each other. It’s good for the movement and the pocket-book. It’s called merchandising the gospel … which, of course, is not the Gospel.

  18. “…and the lack of male leadership in the Church. ”

    I want to know. Where are these churches that lack male leadership? Can someone ask them for me please? No offense to the fellas, but I wouldn’t mind spending a few Sundays in some churches that lack male leadership. It would be kind of refreshing for me for a little while to counter act 5 decades of attendance at churches that all had only male leadership. I had no idea we had a Matriarchy problem in the Church and what better way to overcome the problem than to get advice from a rapist, foul mouthed race car driver, and a man complicit in the sexual abuse of children?

  19. “…and the lack of male leadership in the Church. ”

    I don’t know how these guys can claim there’s no male leadership in the church, when in their own churches, they don’t let women do anything. So who the heck is running things? Martians? Do we need to check them all for antennas?

  20. I have to say, that Georgia story of the football player was disturbing. I have always been rather cynical about rape prosecution, it’s an uphill battle, especially when people report so late that no physical evidence can be gathered. But that was clearly not the case here. The results of the stanford swim guy case, where he was literally caught in the act, were very concerning. This one is in some ways worse, but it’s also such a classic case of a rock star/hollywood/pro ball player getting preferential treatment that it’s not surprising me as much as the other case.

    But obviously neither of the people you mentioned should be speaking at this conference. Whoever is in charge should be fired.

  21. ishy wrote:

    Just how could the girl be criticized for her actions? Drinking isn’t a crime!

    Seriously! I don’t buy that it makes you commit a crime either. Whoever this Ben person is when drinking is who he really is. And his bodyguards should go to jail too, for accessory to a crime.

  22. Sister wrote:

    Where are these churches that lack male leadership? Can someone ask them for me please?

    My church ordains women and we still are not lacking in male leadership! But we’re probably on the naughty list.

  23. What I find strange is that if any of these speakers at this conference held to the Theory of Evolution, that women could (and I think should) be preachers, affirmed SS marriage, denied any of the sola’s, etc they would be off the list in a second. Am I the only one that thinks there are some rather twisted priorities?

  24. Darlene wrote:

    I wonder what they think of men who write beautiful poetry, paint/sculpt beautiful pieces of art, cook exquisite meals, and a host of other things that aren’t on that manly to-do list.

    In those circles there is only one conclusion possible for men who stray outside their god (small ‘g’ intentional) ordained roles determined solely by plumbing received at birth. Queer, fag, gay, homo, you get the picture, and all derived from a few verses in Paul’s letters.

  25. brian wrote:

    Am I the only one that thinks there are some rather twisted priorities?

    Not at all brian. I’ve said here more than once that theirs is a sick and twisted religion.

  26. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    “…and the lack of male leadership in the Church. ”

    I don’t know how these guys can claim there’s no male leadership in the church, when in their own churches, they don’t let women do anything. So who the heck is running things? Martians? Do we need to check them all for antennas?

    Sadly, I think the female leadership they were complaining about was the Gospel itself and those leaders who tried to model it. Combine that with a growing frustration of being forced to treat women as equals in the secular world, they turned to the one scapegoat they good get away with blaming – the women in their own churches.

  27. You know I have been to parties where there were some very very drunk people some were young ladies, I had an awful habit of calling cabs or other lady friends take them home. I would not drive them home myself for logistic and insurance reasons but I would do my best to make sure they did not drive or get in the car with a drunk man. I actually have these very broad lines I draw about such situations even now. I don’t give rides home to people I don’t know. I will get and pay for a cab but not drive people due to well just the terrible situations that can happen, very very long story.

  28. A couple of things struck me: first BRs penalty was the same as Brady’s for deflated footballs! Second: in the list at – http://www.jdgreear.com/recommended-reading – is a book called Christless Christianity: The Alternative Gospel of the American Church (by the conservative Calvinist Michael Horton – with a foreword by the rather liberal Methodist William Willimon!).

  29. If my understanding of Christianity were limited to conferences like this, and the nonsense that plays on “Christian” TV and radio, and the contents of your average Lifeway store, I’m not sure I would still be a Christian. I’m really thankful for places like this, and old books, and history, which reminds me that I’m part of something very old and rich… A faith which is deeper than popular Christian culture.

    It does make me think twice about “identifying myself” as a Christian. If the person I’m talking to knows little more than what they see in popular culture, then their understanding of the word “Christian” is so skewed that I honestly hesitate to call myself that. I’m not ashamed of the gospel; I’m ashamed of what we’ve made the gospel into.

  30. My dear husband of 40 years is a geek. He is also a writer. He had been published in 3,anthologies in the last two years. When anyone needs help he is there, he has been a servant leader to me and our six kids. He lives out his Christianity daily, he loves his God, his family, his friends and his neighbors,.He has been an elder in the church, which he gave up because he saw abuses in the church. A lot of people woukd nit call him a manly man. Yet the character of this man is what Jesus woukd call a manly man.

    @ Darlene:

  31. L. Lee wrote:

    A couple of things struck me: first BRs penalty was the same as Brady’s for deflated footballs! Second: in the list at – http://www.jdgreear.com/recommended-reading – is a book called Christless Christianity: The Alternative Gospel of the American Church (by the conservative Calvinist Michael Horton – with a foreword by the rather liberal Methodist William Willimon!).

    What struck you about the inclusion of Christless Christianity? It’s a superb book. Willimon, in his laudatory foreword, admits that he is indirectly “judged” by the contents of the book.

  32. Darlene wrote:

    I predict that the show will go on as usual. These kind of testosterone glorifying conferences have no shame. It’s all about promoting the brand – the manly-man, Christian dude who must profess his manliness by doing all those manly things. It’s Mark Driscoll Christianity. I wonder what they think of men who write beautiful poetry, paint/sculpt beautiful pieces of art, cook exquisite meals, and a host of other things that aren’t on that manly to-do list.

    I think we should start taking bets on which of these guys is the first to openly claim that God has a penis (not Jesus’ human penis, but a “divine” one).

    There was a commenter on the IMDB message boards who kept repeatedly telling people that they would be sitting in front of God’s almighty, kingly, enormous member on judgment day and then He’d cast them into hell. The poster was probably just trolling, but you never know. (He’s one of the reasons the message boards eventually got shut down).

    But the way this “manly church” trend is going, it sadly won’t surprise me if pastors start talking like that for real. Or else maybe next year’s conference will feature Roosh V as a speaker.

  33. brian wrote:

    What I find strange is that if any of these speakers at this conference held to the Theory of Evolution, that women could (and I think should) be preachers, affirmed SS marriage, denied any of the sola’s, etc they would be off the list in a second. Am I the only one that thinks there are some rather twisted priorities?

    Liberty is historically very anti-Calvinist, so I am surprised to see Greear on the list. Many of their big supporters would be offended by a Calvinist teaching solas besides sola Scriptura, though are very fundamentalist so would support the other things. LU does have a problem of being too swayed by whoever has the money though, and I wonder if the Calvinistas are pulling spots that way.

  34. I would like to say I’m surprised, but I’m not. The President of Liberty University is Jerry Falwell Jr, who was one of the most outspoken religious supporters of Donald Trump. Although Falwell Jr turned down the cabinet position of Secretary of Education, he did accept an official (but unspecified) role working for Trump for the next couple of years. http://wsls.com/2017/01/24/liberty-university-president-jerry-falwell-junior-will-have-official-role-with-trump-team/

    Whatever one may think of Trump’s politics, few could credibly argue that he treats all women with decency, modesty, humility and total respect. Yet, this is the man that Liberty University’s President respects and reveres. Should we surprised that Falwell not only invited, but is paying large honorariums to BR to appear at this event? One can only wonder if JFJ would be willing to allow his 16 year old daughter, Caroline, to hang out with Roethlisberger alone in the green room? If not, why not? Isn’t BR the bastion of Christian manhood?

    Realistically, men like JFJ enjoy using their church and university funds in order to meet and hang out with celebrities like Tony Stewart, Duck Dynasty’s Uncle Si and Ben Roethlisberger. It makes men like Falwell Jr feel like cool, popular, worldly celebrities themselves. Once they have amassed millions in their personal bank accounts and are living the high life in their mansions and designer vacation homes, they need some sort of new perk that demonstrates their superior status to the world – something that will make other people respect and ENVY them.

    In a world dominated by selfies and social media, the new “it” thing is for preachers to use tithes to pay to hang out with the rich and famous, working the red carpet, hanging out in the green rooms and getting the selfies at the private after-parties at the finest restaurants. THAT is why LU’s line-up looks like this. The “conferences” the celebs grace for 30-45 minutes are strictly for appearances, to keep the members and accountants from griping too much about the astronomical “program expenses”. The real reason celebs are paid so much to show up to these events is for the egos of the VIPs.

    However, as long as members/students continue to attend these events, this trend will continue. In the end, Roethlisberger is only going to appear because 10,000 Christian men are willing to shell out $73 and show up to hear him speak. If those same 10,000 men (who are all sons, fathers and/or brothers) said NO, not until BR is removed from the event, he’d be dropped in a Virginia second.

    I can’t speak for other churches, but at Gateway Church in Southlake, TX you never saw that church spending MILLIONS to get a president elected, prior to this year. And it wasn’t just Gateway. Trump fever spread into other megas in DFW like Prestonwood Baptist and First Baptist Dallas.

    All of these pastors paid to attend the inauguration and in the case of Robert Morris of Gateway Church and GW elder James Robison and his ministry Life Today, actual ministry funds were used to SPONSOR the Inaugural Ball. In Robison’s case, his ministry funds come from donations raised to provide clean water, food and education to starving orphans. But that is so 2015. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2017/01/24/gateway-church-pastor-robert-morris-dines-in-style-while-youth-group-kids-pay-for-pizza/

    No such efforts were ever made for Mitt Romney,John McCain, Presidential hopeful and pastor Mike Huckabee or any other GOP presidential candidates including the very Texan and Charismatic George W Bush. Why? Certainly not because those men were less conservative or less godly than Trump. So what did they lack? Simple… They lacked l’essence de la celebrite, or as Simon Cowell would put it, the X Factor. I mean c’mon, who wants to chat up Laura Bush in her prim tropical wool suit dress when you can leer down Melania’s plunging neckline while mentally recalling her girl-on-girl nude photo layouts? That’ll get the ole sermon writing juices flowing.

    Chucking out their principles (and bibles) while wasting tithes and offerings to get close to a man like Trump, hoping his billionaire reality TV persona will rub off on them, is done by these preachers with both passion and excitement. So what’s the big deal about having a superstar NFL player/rapist masquerading as a Christian on their stage? Who cares about his character? The pastors/Christian uni presidents will get SO MANY likes on their Instagram it’ll be off da chain! And everyone knows that getting likes is how you store up your treasures in heaven.

    The real question is why is it that the same students who PROTESTED Falwell Jr’s support of Trump, based on Trump being a misogynist, are doing nothing to protest the appearance of a guy like Roethlisberger? Even if he wasn’t criminally charged, BR freely admits he went pub-crawling, prowling for university chicks. He found an underage girl he had never met before, illegally plied her with shots of hard liquor, then had her taken back to a tiny, dark, dirty bathroom stall where he used enough force on her to cause bruising, bleeding and tearing. Those facts are not in dispute.

    In what universe is any such man, regardless of the level of consent given or not given, fit to stand up and sermonize at a Christian event with Christian students in attendance about his role in society as a Christian man? Answer: The same universe where churches/Christian universities are backing Donald Trump as being the God anointed savior of the world, because it is so cool when he says, “Ya know what? You’re fired!”

    C’mon Liberty University students… The world KNOWS you can do better on this. Please demonstrate that loathing egregious, sexist, violent, immoral behavior applies to ALL misogynists; not just the ones you happen to disagree with politically. Your true colors will show on this. At the very least, consider what could happen to one of your fellow students if this great Christian speaker decides to go out partying after the event? That underage Georgia student could now be a Virginia student.

  35. * clarification to my comment. The Georgia student was 20 years old. She was “underage” for being served alcohol. She was not a minor.

  36. “We are here to take on the everyday challenges that men face—… and the lack of male leadership in the Church.”
    ++++++++++++

    well, considering women aren’t allowed to lead in the Church, who pray tell has been doing it all along? leprechauns?

  37. elastigirl wrote:

    “We are here to take on the everyday challenges that men face—… and the lack of male leadership in the Church.”
    ++++++++++++
    well, considering women aren’t allowed to lead in the Church, who pray tell has been doing it all along? leprechauns?

    “Well, THAT’S a problem that didn’t need solving!”

  38. @ brian:

    “…parties where there were some very very drunk people some were young ladies, I had an awful habit of calling cabs or other lady friends take them home. I would not drive them home myself for logistic and insurance reasons but I would do my best to make sure they did not drive or get in the car with a drunk man.”
    ++++++++++++++

    awful habit? you’re a hero!

  39. This “Ignite” weekend thing is like going to a stripper for marriage counseling (or any counseling). It has filth written all over it. Women, keep your husbands home…

  40. I assume that most of these men would affirm that the Bible is the “literal” Word of God”. I wonder if any of the speakers will lead the men to think about the manly aspects of the Sermon on the Mount?

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. MT 5:38-42

  41. ishy wrote:

    Liberty is historically very anti-Calvinist, so I am surprised to see Greear on the list. Many of their big supporters would be offended by a Calvinist teaching solas besides sola Scriptura, though are very fundamentalist so would support the other things. LU does have a problem of being too swayed by whoever has the money though, and I wonder if the Calvinistas are pulling spots that way.

    Absolutely.

    As to the first part of your statement, good luck trying to make people understand that fundamentalist on the one hand and evangelical (calvinist) on the other hand are not the same positions. I have tried but they don’t believe me. I can’t make people understand apparently.

    As to the issue of money, you got that absolutely correct. Liberty is not what it used to be, some of which may be for the better but some of which is for the worse. The lure of size and money and apparently political influence may do them in.

  42. Leslie wrote:

    My dear husband of 40 years is a geek. He is also a writer. He had been published in 3,anthologies in the last two years. When anyone needs help he is there, he has been a servant leader to me and our six kids. He lives out his Christianity daily, he loves his God, his family, his friends and his neighbors,.He has been an elder in the church, which he gave up because he saw abuses in the church. A lot of people woukd nit call him a manly man. Yet the character of this man is what Jesus woukd call a manly man.

    @ Darlene:

    Leslie: There is no doubt your husband is a Godly man! He is a man of principle that is Christian principles and I am confident lost “friends” over giving up his elder position.

  43. okrapod wrote:

    As to the issue of money, you got that absolutely correct. Liberty is not what it used to be, some of which may be for the better but some of which is for the worse. The lure of size and money and apparently political influence may do them in.

    Unfortunately, the money thing was quite true while I was there. They talked about money all the time, and even collected from students for the school during convocation on occasion.

    I will try to do a fundamentalist Baptist vs. Calvinista primer later on today when I’ve had more coffee. There are profound differences in belief and methodology.

  44. Anecdote on the money drives:

    When I attended LU from 1996-2000, they had just built the coliseum, but most of the campus was old buildings. Boy, were they proud of that coliseum. I think they wanted to build something out in the athletic fields, and I guess Falwell, Sr. didn’t get the donations he wanted for it. I don’t remember exactly what it was. So he gave this impassioned speech about all the students just giving $1. Then they passed around the Kentucky Fried Chicken buckets like they always did (I can’t see a KFC without thinking of LU).

    For weeks after that, anytime us students had a problem among ourselves, we’d yell at each other, “IF YOU’D JUST GIVE ONE DOLLAR, I COULD… (whatever)!”

    I don’t remember if I gave just one dollar or not. I don’t remember feeling interested at all in the reason for having to give a dollar. And they requested donations in convo fairly often.

  45. ishy wrote:

    I will try to do a fundamentalist Baptist vs. Calvinista primer later on today when I’ve had more coffee. There are profound differences in belief and methodology.

    Bless you. I think that some of the difficulty with comprehending what is going on in Baptistville is that people who have not been there and done that do not understand this very issue.

  46. okrapod wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    I will try to do a fundamentalist Baptist vs. Calvinista primer later on today when I’ve had more coffee. There are profound differences in belief and methodology.

    Bless you. I think that some of the difficulty with comprehending what is going on in Baptistville is that people who have not been there and done that do not understand this very issue.

    I think this would be very helpful. The fundy/evangelist divide always seemed law and rules verses spreading the word? Although that’s awfully simplistic. Calvinists are a newer breed, who seem to have taken fundy elements and fused them with presbyterianism?

    Leslie wrote:

    A lot of people woukd nit call him a manly man. Yet the character of this man is what Jesus woukd call a manly man.

    I grew up thinking manly men were protective and respectful of women in their person and perspective (i.e., would actually engage), secure in themselves, capable, etc. Not that they liked nascar and football and were cool treating women like dirt.

  47. ishy wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    “We are here to take on the everyday challenges that men face—… and the lack of male leadership in the Church.”
    ++++++++++++
    well, considering women aren’t allowed to lead in the Church, who pray tell has been doing it all along? leprechauns?
    “Well, THAT’S a problem that didn’t need solving!”

    The church has 99 problems and ‘lack of male leadership’ ain’t one.

  48. brian wrote:

    denied any of the sola’s,

    Ummm. No, I think that would not be one of the criteria. Liberty is fundamentalist, in some people’s thinking fundamentalist light, and the calvinist solas are not part of the requirements of that perspective. Check back later; ishy is going to do a primer on fundamentalism vs evangelicalism.

    So, IMO, the conspicuous calvinist on the agenda may come under ‘sharing the pulpit’ with a representative of the affluent (money) and large (size) group they may want to be pals with. True fundamentalists would accuse liberty of the great transgression of ‘compromise’ with this bevy of speakers. But that would not be the first time that ‘true fundamentalists’ had accused Liberty of ‘compromise’. Even back when one of my kids was there three decades ago Liberty was seen by some as heading in the direction of ‘compromise’ which in fundamentalist thinking is seriously to be avoided.

    I looks to me, based on several things going on at Liberty (not just this) that Liberty is trying to play from both sides of a number of issues.

    This message brought to you from a former fundamentalist (me).

  49. Sister wrote:

    but I wouldn’t mind spending a few Sundays in some churches that lack male leadership. It would be kind of refreshing for me for a little while to counter act 5 decades of attendance at churches that all had only male leadershi

    Love this comment.

  50. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes wrote:

    don’t know how these guys can claim there’s no male leadership in the church, when in their own churches, they don’t let women do anything. So who the heck is running things? Martians?

    Great comment!!!

  51. Lea wrote:

    The fundy/evangelist divide always seemed law and rules verses spreading the word? Although that’s awfully simplistic. Calvinists are a newer breed, who seem to have taken fundy elements and fused them with presbyterianism?

    That is not what I see. I think ishy can clear this up. She is super good in this area; far better than I. And far younger and more recent. And she has been exposed to both the fundamentalists and the evangelicals. I was a non-fundamentalist non-calvinist in my youth (old style SBC) and then I was a fundamentalist when I was rearing children, but I have never been an evangelical (calvinist) so my experience is at variance with ishy’s experience. This is good, because there is no such thing as ‘identical’ in Baptist thought or practice.

    FWIW the key issue is free will. If one has free will then one is responsible for themselves, not only to choose to follow Christ but also free and responsible to conduct one’s life decisions adequately. Some see this as legalism, but it actually is based on the idea of free will and individual responsibility. But they are also highly evangelistic, since they think the gospel must be presented to people and people must have the opportunity to choose to follow Christ.

    This is the direct opposite of predestination in both theory and practice.

  52. @ brian:
    Great comment. I also wouldn’t advise a football player to go into a room with his pants unzipped and his *parts* (that s what my son called it when he was a young boy) hanging out after a drunk woman has been led in there.

  53. Loren Haas wrote:

    Nancy, it was actually the Atheistic Director and he was neck deep in the scandal:

    Oops …. you’re right! Athletic director ….. Football team scandal. There are just too many scandals to keep them all straight!

  54. <a href="#comment-309654" title="Go to comment of this author"

    elastigirl wrote:

    well, considering women aren’t allowed to lead in the Church, who pray tell has been doing it all along? leprechauns?

    I think they may be upset by what they call functionally egalitarian marriages. Complementarian in name only. Just guessing here. Or they may be talking about guys who are irresponsible. Who knows? Regardless, I don’t see what race car driving or football, or the other stuff has to do with real manliness.

  55. ishy wrote:

    Liberty is historically very anti-Calvinist, so I am surprised to see Greear

    Yeah, well JDG claims he’s not a Calvinist – in a deceiving, roundabout sort of way. So, I guess they just have to take the good ole boy’s word for it.

  56. elastigirl wrote:

    well, considering women aren’t allowed to lead in the Church, who pray tell has been doing it all along? leprechauns?

    Demons?

  57. This is my guide to the differences between fundamentalist Baptists and neo-Calvinists. I have attended churches with both, and went to a fundamentalist Baptist college.

    I’m sure I left some things out, but hoping this will at least establish some basic differences.

    CHRIST

    Fundie Baptist — They love Him, and preach from the gospels in the Bible often. If you really want to get things going, just start singing a round of “Victory in Jesus”. Everybody will join in!

    Calvinista — Jesus is lesser to God the Father. They believe He only existed as a sacrificial lamb, and don’t talk about His life, ministry, or resurrection at all. This is why I do not consider them evangelicals or even Christians, and think those terms are misnomers.

    SALVATION

    Fundie Baptist — Walk forward during Sunday service, say, “Jesus is My Lord and Savior”. Traditionally followed by water baptism. If your salvation is ever questioned, just say you went forward and got baptized at “_______ Baptist Church”. Knowing the date helps.

    Calvinista — You sign the covenant at their church and remain a member for eternity without making any sort of mistake like letting your wife speak, work, or drive you to church.

    MINISTRY STYLE

    Fundie Baptist — Most fundie Baptist churches have a lead pastor who is beholden to the congregational vote, but still has a lot of sway in that fundies often assign preaching pastors a sort of celebrity status. If the church has other pastors, they are usually not given the same sort of status, and thought of more like middle managers.

    No female pastors, but women may run women’s ministry, children’s ministry, or hold administrative positions. Members may leave at will, though they might call to check up on you why your membership letter hadn’t been transferred to another fundamentalist church. After that, they’ll likely never speak to you again.

    Calvinista –A board of seven to nine elders run the church. Sometimes the pastoral staff is separate, but sometimes the pastor who preaches most of the sermons is considered one of the elders. No congregational input at all, and they are offended by the idea.

    Women may hold administrative positions if they are single or haven’t had children (yet), and married women are expected to do all cleaning, nursery, and janitorial jobs in the church.

    Members sign strict covenants that the churches decides all of their affairs, and the church may call them for discipline or counseling for any reason. Members are only allowed to leave the church in cases of transfer, and then they must transfer their membership to a church of the same beliefs, and with the guidance of the elders.

    THE SERMON

    Fundie Baptist — God pours out His spirit on anyone who hears the sermon, and does magical things in the lives of anyone who hears. It lasts usually until lunch, when everyone goes out to eat and acts like jerks to their waiter.

    Sermons often taken from one verse, sometimes out of context, and about five minutes in you realize you have no idea what this story about a golf ball has to do with Micah 6:8. This goes for the rest of the sermon. Sermons may not run past 12:05 pm because then all the seats at the restaurant will be filled.

    Calvinista — The sermon is for the purpose of correct Doctrine. Correct Doctrine makes one right with God. One can only hear correct Doctrine at a neo-Calvinist church when in a right covenantal relationship with the church.

    Sermons may only be from the Old Testament, or a few Pauline verses. They are often cold and analytical, and yet devoid of any consideration for the text if it goes against other Calvinista doctrines. Sermons can run up to two hours if the church really needs a lot of correct Doctrine that day.

    RULES

    Fundie Baptist — Proper church dress is very important, because you have to impress both God and the pastor. Men wear ties, and women wear dresses with a lot of coverage. Skirts must cover the knees.

    Some churches allow women to speak at church meetings, and some don’t. Many of these fundamentalists churches have powerful women who are really the ones running everything, and they just pretend like the men are in charge.

    Music is always southern gospel, and you will stand, sing, and clap and act like you are enjoying it or ten people will be over after the service to find out what is wrong.

    Calvinista — Obey the elders absolutely. You may not ask questions, imply something is wrong, or even think for yourself.

    Women are not allowed to speak unless spoken to, and even then have nothing beneficial to say, since they are clearly out to sabotage your relationship with God.

    Dress code varies by church, but is often casual, as that draws a lot of people in to get them to sign that covenant.

    HOT BUTTON ISSUE

    Fundie Baptist — Politics and legislating morality, even if you agree with them on the issue they are harping on. I have tried to analyze why fundamentalists are so passionate about politics and have come up empty. It’s something that doesn’t come directly out of their theology. There is an element of making themselves famous/known by it. I think a few people started it, and it just became expected practice.

    Calvinista — That you are not a covenantal member of their church.

    GETTING RID OF EVANGELIZERS

    Fundie Baptist – Tell them you love Jesus, and they’ll be your best friend for 10 minutes then likely never bother you again

    Calvinista – Signing their church covenant might get them to leave you alone for awhile, but they’ll probably expect more and more time from you given to church activities, and be back often to tell you everything you are doing wrong

    QUICK ANALYSIS

    I think the main reason the Calvinistas were able to take over the SBC so fast is that Baptists are way too trusting of whoever comes to their church and acts like a member. This is true for fundamentalist Baptists as well as traditional Baptists (who may be more politically moderate). The Calvinistas are much more cunning in that respect, forcing people to sign on the dotted line.

    I’m certain that Paige Patterson and Jerry Falwell, Sr. had no idea what Al Mohler had in mind when they changed the BFM 2000. I don’t think a lot of people realize how much Falwell was related to the changes, as he was independant Baptist at the time. Falwell made a big deal of promising to join the SBC if the passages about women were added, but no one questioned the other changes, which they should have. They believed in the concepts of soul competency and the priesthood of the believers, and had no reason to change those.

    Liberty remains independent from the SBC, and calls themselves the largest Christian university instead of focusing on their Baptist roots.

  58. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    There was a commenter on the IMDB message boards who kept repeatedly telling people that they would be sitting in front of God’s almighty, kingly, enormous member on judgment day and then He’d cast them into hell.

    Which god? The original Baphomet?

  59. okrapod wrote:

    FWIW the key issue is free will. If one has free will then one is responsible for themselves, not only to choose to follow Christ but also free and responsible to conduct one’s life decisions adequately. Some see this as legalism, but it actually is based on the idea of free will and individual responsibility. But they are also highly evangelistic, since they think the gospel must be presented to people and people must have the opportunity to choose to follow Christ.
    This is the direct opposite of predestination in both theory and practice.

    I agree with this, though I think top neo-Calvinists have only adopted strict Calvinist ideals for the purposes of controlling others, and not because it’s something they really believe in. Leaders like Mohler tend to change what they say depending on who they say it to, and then you have the whole trend of redefining words so that even neo-Calvinists don’t agree on what they mean.

    Fundamentalist Baptists may seem like rules lawyers, but they really believe it makes them (and everyone else) better people, and they believe in letting people have freedom. And they won’t try to convert you too hard if you go to a different church. Even Falwell, Sr. had a lot of non-Christian political friends. People say a lot of things about him, but he really did love people. I met him once and shook his hand, and you know, he never forgot my name after that. If he saw me on campus, he said, “How are you doing today? Everything going well?”

  60. Nancy2 wrote:

    Yeah, well JDG claims he’s not a Calvinist – in a deceiving, roundabout sort of way. So, I guess they just have to take the good ole boy’s word for it.

    Well, he’s trying to get elected to SBC president. You do that the same way you take over a non-Calvinist church–by telling everyone you’re not a Calvinist.

  61. Every time I look at that picture of Joe White I think of the Eloi. Maybe Newman was a mutant Morlock.

  62. @ ishy:

    Oh, that is awesome.

    I have an idea about the politics issue. Traditionally fundamentalists have tended overall to have less or rather more limited education, less money, been blue collar, felt that they had less voice in the larger culture (a despised minority position?), and been less able to hold their own against some of the secular cultural issues of the past century. Largely for these reasons, IMO, the idea of ‘separation’ grew to be the issue it became. Jerry was quite up front with this when he started Liberty. He said he wanted to correct the education gap, and indeed he accepted students at the time who had no hope of post-secondary education otherwise. Some fundamentalists were wary of this approach. I sent him some money for the school (not much) early on because I believed in this approach. Anyhow, now we have what we have in the political involvement of ‘champions for Christ’ and those who identify with this idea be they actually fundamentalist Baptists of not. Except the ‘champions’ now have graduate and professional degrees and have become part of a force to be reckoned with in the culture.

    May I note that those who do the stat on who voted how in our recent election have some stats at to how this did/did not affect the outcome of the election. I keep hearing the term ‘blue collar’ used in the political sense as well as ‘values voters’. And the stats show a significant number of Roman Catholics went this route politically also.

  63. NJ wrote:

    Every time I look at that picture of Joe White I think of the Eloi.

    You’re right.
    Meat animal for the Morlocks.

  64. @ ishy:
    I would say you are largely on track with your “Fundie” vs. “Neo-Cal” comparison. I would add that there is no spiritual life flowing through either ministry. Southern Baptists as a group are not a very spiritual people. I say that as a 60+ year Southern Baptist who finally found enough sense to become a “Done”, although I prefer to think of myself as a Bapti-costal – a Biblicist who is neither Arminian or Calvinist.

  65. Nancy2 wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    well, considering women aren’t allowed to lead in the Church, who pray tell has been doing it all along? leprechauns?

    Demons?

    WITCHES!

  66. Sister wrote:

    I want to know. Where are these churches that lack male leadership? Can someone ask them for me please? No offense to the fellas, but I wouldn’t mind spending a few Sundays in some churches that lack male leadership. It would be kind of refreshing for me for a little while to counter act 5 decades of attendance at churches that all had only male leadership. I had no idea we had a Matriarchy problem in the Church and what better way to overcome the problem than to get advice from a rapist, foul mouthed race car driver, and a man complicit in the sexual abuse of children?</blockquote

    *Mic Drop*

    Matriarchy, indeed.

  67. okrapod wrote:

    I have an idea about the politics issue. Traditionally fundamentalists have tended overall to have less or rather more limited education, less money, been blue collar, felt that they had less voice in the larger culture (a despised minority position?), and been less able to hold their own against some of the secular cultural issues of the past century. Largely for these reasons, IMO, the idea of ‘separation’ grew to be the issue it became. Jerry was quite up front with this when he started Liberty. He said he wanted to correct the education gap, and indeed he accepted students at the time who had no hope of post-secondary education otherwise. Some fundamentalists were wary of this approach. I sent him some money for the school (not much) early on because I believed in this approach. Anyhow, now we have what we have in the political involvement of ‘champions for Christ’ and those who identify with this idea be they actually fundamentalist Baptists of not. Except the ‘champions’ now have graduate and professional degrees and have become part of a force to be reckoned with in the culture.

    That’s an interesting point. I came at a time when Liberty was full of mostly affluent pastors’ kids. Being a megachurch pastor was highly in vogue. Pastoral majors hit on me with “I’m going to found a megachurch”. There was a good deal of schmoozing with people who might be able to be connections later. I think the ideals were very much different at that point. Everything was about being rich and famous while being a “champion for Christ”, as you said.

    Liberty gave me a half-scholarship, which is what made my agnostic dad begged me to transfer there. I really didn’t know anything about the school before I went, and I never applied before they gave me the scholarship. I’m not even sure how I got on a list for one. My dad is very conservative politically, so he wasn’t at odds with Falwell for those reasons.

  68. okrapod wrote:

    I think ishy can clear this up. She is super good in this area; far better than I.

    I will be interested to hear her thoughts. I do think evangelical is hard to define for me. It was sort of like water is wet growing up-everyone seemed to fit in that category.

  69. Max wrote:

    I would say you are largely on track with your “Fundie” vs. “Neo-Cal” comparison. I would add that there is no spiritual life flowing through either ministry. Southern Baptists as a group are not a very spiritual people. I say that as a 60+ year Southern Baptist who finally found enough sense to become a “Done”, although I prefer to think of myself as a Bapti-costal – a Biblicist who is neither Arminian or Calvinist.

    I’m not sure I would call a lot of Southern Baptists fundamentalists. Many are more middle of the road, but just didn’t want to leave during the split. I think a lot of those are very apathetic, or just view church as a free country club.

    I also think the more modern megachurch culture has done a lot of damage to Christians in terms making people believe that all they have to do is show up to a service and their checklist for God is done for the week. That’s true of non-Baptist megachurches as well as SBC megas.

  70. okrapod wrote:

    but I have never been an evangelical (calvinist) so my experience

    Ah, see I NEVER associated evangelical with Calvinist growing up. Maybe now they are somewhat linked. So, interesting to see how people’s experience differs.

  71. Nancy2 wrote:

    JDG claims he’s not a Calvinist

    If you talk like a duck, walk like a duck, and are continually seen in the presence of ducks … you are most likely a duck.

  72. Lea wrote:

    Ah, see I NEVER associated evangelical with Calvinist growing up. Maybe now they are somewhat linked. So, interesting to see how people’s experience differs.

    I also do not consider Calvinists evangelicals. I think it’s another one of those things that they call themselves that is totally untrue, and I refuse to call them that.

  73. ishy wrote:

    very apathetic, or just view church as a free country club … show up to a service and their checklist for God is done for the week

    You have just described most churchmen, regardless of denomination.

  74. ishy wrote:

    Sermons often taken from one verse, sometimes out of context, and about five minutes in you realize you have no idea what this story about a golf ball has to do with Micah 6:8. This goes for the rest of the sermon.

    Sermons like this are very popular in non-denom churches. And one of the reasons why I stopped going to church for a very long time.

    Interesting thoughts. Obviously I’m reading down@!

  75. ishy wrote:

    Falwell made a big deal of promising to join the SBC if the passages about women were added

    Why on earth did Falwell matter so much to the SBC that they would want to change their official statement of faith for that reason? I had no idea any of this was going on at the time. It’s just unreal.

  76. ishy wrote:

    Sermons often taken from one verse, sometimes out of context, and about five minutes in you realize you have no idea what this story about a golf ball has to do with Micah 6:8.

    Well ishy, don’t you know that every time you tee a golf ball that it’s a reminder of what the Lord really requires of you?!

  77. ishy wrote:

    I’m not sure I would call a lot of Southern Baptists fundamentalists. Many are more middle of the road, but just didn’t want to leave during the split. I think a lot of those are very apathetic, or just view church as a free country club.

    Just my opinion based on limited observations, but that “country club” view seems to be particularly true for women. I wonder …… did I develop that opinion because that’s just how it is, or because so many women just decided to accept the hand they were dealt and make the personal best of it?

  78. Max wrote:

    If you talk like a duck, walk like a duck, and are continually seen in the presence of ducks … you are most likely a duck.

    Or a quack!

  79. Lea wrote:

    Why on earth did Falwell matter so much to the SBC that they would want to change their official statement of faith for that reason? I had no idea any of this was going on at the time. It’s just unreal.

    There were thousands of independent Baptist churches that would follow Falwell’s lead and join the SBC if Thomas Road Baptist joined. That meant money, and lots of it.

    However, the conservative movement within the SBC was fairly strong, so they may not have needed Falwell and the IFB churches to change the BFM. I really don’t know what kind of deal was struck for the priesthood of believers and soul competency lines to be changed, but something like that must have happened. I really wish Patterson would come out and tell everyone, but something is keeping him in check.

  80. Max wrote:

    I prefer to think of myself as a Bapti-costal

    Ha! Someone used that term the other night. I think that’s pretty close to how I was raised.

  81. ishy wrote:

    Not exhaustive by any means, but hopefully helps a little:

    Yes, sorry I was reading in order and hadn’t gotten there yet. I think my thing is I never really put fundamentalists and evangelicals in the same pot, or at least, there might be overlap, but not the same. Fundamentalists always seemed more…something. Something negative, I guess. More likely to be cultish or on the spectrum at least. Evangelical by contrast seemed a fairly neutral term?

  82. ishy wrote:

    I’m not sure I would call a lot of Southern Baptists fundamentalists. Many are more middle of the road, but just didn’t want to leave during the split. I think a lot of those are very apathetic, or just view church as a free country club.

    Oh, definitely. Baptist fundamentalism is enough different from moderate SBC that making the leap in the direction of fundamentalism would be quite difficult for the Sunday social set in the SBC. Both fundamentalism and calvinism require a lot from their people; just not the same thing. The culture of fundamentalism has a very different flavor than the culture of moderate southern baptist. That leap is precisely the one I made, from moderate non-calvinist southern baptist to fundamentalist free will baptist. And that was not as radical as those to go the IFB route.

  83. ishy wrote:

    There were thousands of independent Baptist churches that would follow Falwell’s lead and join the SBC if Thomas Road Baptist joined. That meant money, and lots of it.

    Qui bono. I hope that strategy bites them back where it hurts, in the pocketbook.

  84. Nancy2 wrote:

    Just my opinion based on limited observations, but that “country club” view seems to be particularly true for women. I wonder …… did I develop that opinion because that’s just how it is, or because so many women just decided to accept the hand they were dealt and make the personal best of it?

    I don’t know. I think secular culture influences it a lot, but I do know a lot of women who pretty much only get peace at church, where somebody else watches their kids and does the cleaning. I know some who wouldn’t ever go to church if they couldn’t drop their kids off to children’s church for two/three hours.

    I think there is also a belief among a lot of Christians that if they involve their kids in everything at church, they won’t grow up to be monsters, even if they are spoiled rotten and/or neglected. I can tell you, people who sent their kids to Liberty believing Liberty would keep them “pure”–WRONG! Your kids partied, had sex, and acted like jerks, and they are probably still jerks!

  85. @ Lea:
    The Word and the Spirit must flow together if you are going to have real Church! Southern Baptists were once known as a people of the Word when most of them actually read it in large doses, but they’ve always relegated the Holy Spirit to the back pew. I saw through that error years ago and started making trouble in SBC churches which had good Bible training but no spiritual life flowing through them. I’m always encouraged to meet another Bapti-costal … we are a rare and endangered species.

  86. Lea wrote:

    Evangelical by contrast seemed a fairly neutral term?

    Back in the early Billy Graham days when the word evangelical was becoming popular that is exactly the reason given at the time for the use of the word. They wanted to avoid the appearance of fundamentalism while at the same time have some term which could be used across denominational line to indicate more or less conservative non-calvinist thought and practice.

    Like ishy says, the calvinists have latched onto it and basically destroyed the original idea, it seems to me.

  87. Lea wrote:

    Baptist fundamentalism is enough different from moderate SBC that making the leap in the direction of fundamentalism would be quite difficult for the Sunday social set in the SBC.

    I can see how Calvinism would be a simpler jump for a the country club SBC types.

  88. Lea wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    Not exhaustive by any means, but hopefully helps a little:
    Yes, sorry I was reading in order and hadn’t gotten there yet. I think my thing is I never really put fundamentalists and evangelicals in the same pot, or at least, there might be overlap, but not the same. Fundamentalists always seemed more…something. Something negative, I guess. More likely to be cultish or on the spectrum at least. Evangelical by contrast seemed a fairly neutral term?

    Yes, I agree. Evangelical is more of an umbrella term for Christians who believe that sharing the gospel (of Jesus) will cause people to believe in Christ. Most Baptists and non-denoms would fit in this category, as would many charismatics and Pentacostals. As neo-Calvinists do not believe sharing the gospel results in more Christians, I do not consider them evangelicals. And most classical Calvinists would be offended to be called evangelical.

    Fundamentalism is a style of Christianity more than a set of beliefs, just like many non-denom churches have a specific style. They do have rules, and I would say they tend to have higher expectations of attendance and actions than non-denoms, but I’ve worked in secular places that were even more rules-based, so I think it’s just a product of human nature.

  89. okrapod wrote:

    that is exactly the reason given at the time for the use of the word

    Ah! Always interesting to get backstory. I’m speaking mostly of impressions, but maybe that was spin that worked. But with all terms, you can only use a neutral term for so long until people catch on and associate with bad things. See: Grace.

    ishy wrote:

    I know some who wouldn’t ever go to church if they couldn’t drop their kids off to children’s church for two/three hours.

    I can see that. There is some idea that kids need socialization and to be raised in church, so that’s probably part of it too. Adults need socialization too, and sometimes church is an easy way to get it. I don’t actually think those are bad things at all, I am a ‘raise the flag high for potluck’ kind of girl. But those benefits go away if church because actively harmful to your person or your spirit.

  90. ishy wrote:

    There were thousands of independent Baptist churches that would follow Falwell’s lead and join the SBC if Thomas Road Baptist joined. That meant money, and lots of it.

    I am not so sure of that. The fundamentalists that I knew at the time were highly disapproving of Falwell’s trying to play footsies with SBC. Again the battle cry of ‘compromise’ but also the fact that a plethora of church-related schools as well as bible colleges and bible institutes had a lot to lose from any merger with SBC. Now, Jerry did dangle that in front of the SBC people. Publicly, which is how the pushback came for him on that. Maybe the dangled deal fell through because Jerry could not deliver on that idea.

  91. ishy wrote:

    I’ve worked in secular places that were even more rules-based, so I think it’s just a product of human nature.

    Someone was telling me the other day about the rules in one bicycle club, and how another bicycle club didn’t want to follow their rules and so created their own club that also had rules but different ones. So yeah.

  92. okrapod wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    There were thousands of independent Baptist churches that would follow Falwell’s lead and join the SBC if Thomas Road Baptist joined. That meant money, and lots of it.
    I am not so sure of that. The fundamentalists that I knew at the time were highly disapproving of Falwell’s trying to play footsies with SBC. Again the battle cry of ‘compromise’ but also the fact that a plethora of church-related schools as well as bible colleges and bible institutes had a lot to lose from any merger with SBC. Now, Jerry did dangle that in front of the SBC people. Publicly, which is how the pushback came for him on that. Maybe the dangled deal fell through because Jerry could not deliver on that idea.

    They were definitely split, but Falwell had a lot of followers, and some of those churches were quite large and powerful, including my hometown Woodstock Baptist. He had a list of churches that agreed to join. Maybe there were some benefits the SBC was offering to bait them, but I don’t remember that.

  93. Everybody has rules. There is a bias for our own rules and a bias against the other people’s rules. But to say that this group has rules and that one does not is not accurate. Society is about rules. Whether the
    rule is that you dress up for church or dress down for church, either way there is a custom (a rule) for a dress code. Whether people are expected to socialize before the service starts or whether people are expected to remain respectful and preferably kneel on the kneeler for a moment of prayer before service, either way these are cultural expectations, aka rules. And there are scads of these cultural expectations in social groups including churches.

  94. ishy wrote:

    Maybe there were some benefits the SBC was offering to bait them, but I don’t remember that.

    I never heard that SBC had made an offer or was pursuing the matter, but I was not SBC at the time so I never got the message on that.

  95. ishy wrote:

    Maybe there were some benefits the SBC was offering to bait them, but I don’t remember that.

    At that time, the SBC was changing …. growing more in line with Falwell’s beliefs. I have wondered if Falwell might have, at some time, had his eyes on the presidency of the SBC.

  96. Lea wrote:

    There is some idea that kids need socialization and to be raised in church, so that’s probably part of it too.

    Oh yes. In my parish the word ‘formation’ is used to describe not only what would be sunday school but rather the entire idea of raising children, and helping adults, to be not just christians but also episcopal style christians. Other churches do that also but perhaps with different terminology.

    For illustration, our parish is offering a 15 week course in church latin aimed both at those with no prior exposure to the language and also aimed at those who had some latin in school but learned classical pronunciation rather than ecclesiastical pronunciation. So RE and I both had some latin in school, and now the young adolescent at this house (who BTW was confirmed last Sunday) also said she wanted to ‘pick up some Latin’ so we are all going. This comes under the heading of socializing people to be anglo-catholic episcopalians. Everybody where I have ever been socializes their people in how to do it their way, baptist or episcopal or whomever.

  97. Late to the party here, but this advertisement and the guest speakers is only consistent with the belief that men can only learn and grow spiritually if it’s encased in the manly terms of sports sports sports, regardless of the witness of the guests personal lives.

  98. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    Late to the party here, but this advertisement and the guest speakers is only consistent with the belief that men can only learn and grow spiritually if it’s encased in the manly terms of sports sports sports, regardless of the witness of the guests personal lives.

    I was the Omega Male of my high school, where Football was the State Religion and “FAG!” was someone not completely into Football.

    Where does this leave guys like me?
    Beaten up in the gym showers while the PE coach looks on?
    Threatened with being dragged behind the backstop and raped?

  99. ishy wrote:

    Sermons often taken from one verse, sometimes out of context, and about five minutes in you realize you have no idea what this story about a golf ball has to do with Micah 6:8. This goes for the rest of the sermon.

    I had that happen to me once, during my time at Cal Poly. My dorm roomie & I were sampling a splinter church someone had recommended to us and the wild man-looking preacher (big shaggy beard and loud voice) was preaching on Revelation (natch).

    Well, he began with that verse mentioning the “Nicolaitans” and that Greek had two words for “Priest” — Presbyteros and Ekklesiastika. From there he spun a long web of connections and SCRIPTURE until some twenty minutes later he PROVED that Catholics worship Satan.

    It was an example of what would later be called “Fridge Logic”. As long as he was preaching he made perfect SCRIPTURAL sense, but ten minutes after the sermon ended you were “WTF did I just hear? A Kook Rant?”

  100. Leslie wrote:

    My dear husband of 40 years is a geek. He is also a writer. He had been published in 3 anthologies in the last two years.

    What genre does he write in?
    And were those anthologies small-press or mainstream?

  101. ishy wrote:

    This is my guide to the differences between fundamentalist Baptists and neo-Calvinists. I have attended churches with both, and went to a fundamentalist Baptist college.

    I’m sure I left some things out, but hoping this will at least establish some basic differences.

    CHRIST

    Fundie Baptist — They love Him, and preach from the gospels in the Bible often. If you really want to get things going, just start singing a round of “Victory in Jesus”. Everybody will join in!

    Calvinista — Jesus is lesser to God the Father. They believe He only existed as a sacrificial lamb, and don’t talk about His life, ministry, or resurrection at all. This is why I do not consider them evangelicals or even Christians, and think those terms are misnomers.

    SALVATION

    Fundie Baptist — Walk forward during Sunday service, say, “Jesus is My Lord and Savior”. Traditionally followed by water baptism. If your salvation is ever questioned, just say you went forward and got baptized at “_______ Baptist Church”. Knowing the date helps.

    Calvinista — You sign the covenant at their church and remain a member for eternity without making any sort of mistake like letting your wife speak, work, or drive you to church.

    MINISTRY STYLE

    Fundie Baptist — Most fundie Baptist churches have a lead pastor who is beholden to the congregational vote, but still has a lot of sway in that fundies often assign preaching pastors a sort of celebrity status. If the church has other pastors, they are usually not given the same sort of status, and thought of more like middle managers.

    No female pastors, but women may run women’s ministry, children’s ministry, or hold administrative positions. Members may leave at will, though they might call to check up on you why your membership letter hadn’t been transferred to another fundamentalist church. After that, they’ll likely never speak to you again.

    Calvinista –A board of seven to nine elders run the church. Sometimes the pastoral staff is separate, but sometimes the pastor who preaches most of the sermons is considered one of the elders. No congregational input at all, and they are offended by the idea.

    Women may hold administrative positions if they are single or haven’t had children (yet), and married women are expected to do all cleaning, nursery, and janitorial jobs in the church.

    Members sign strict covenants that the churches decides all of their affairs, and the church may call them for discipline or counseling for any reason. Members are only allowed to leave the church in cases of transfer, and then they must transfer their membership to a church of the same beliefs, and with the guidance of the elders.

    THE SERMON

    Fundie Baptist — God pours out His spirit on anyone who hears the sermon, and does magical things in the lives of anyone who hears. It lasts usually until lunch, when everyone goes out to eat and acts like jerks to their waiter.

    Sermons often taken from one verse, sometimes out of context, and about five minutes in you realize you have no idea what this story about a golf ball has to do with Micah 6:8. This goes for the rest of the sermon. Sermons may not run past 12:05 pm because then all the seats at the restaurant will be filled.

    Calvinista — The sermon is for the purpose of correct Doctrine. Correct Doctrine makes one right with God. One can only hear correct Doctrine at a neo-Calvinist church when in a right covenantal relationship with the church.

    Sermons may only be from the Old Testament, or a few Pauline verses. They are often cold and analytical, and yet devoid of any consideration for the text if it goes against other Calvinista doctrines. Sermons can run up to two hours if the church really needs a lot of correct Doctrine that day.

    RULES

    Fundie Baptist — Proper church dress is very important, because you have to impress both God and the pastor. Men wear ties, and women wear dresses with a lot of coverage. Skirts must cover the knees.

    Some churches allow women to speak at church meetings, and some don’t. Many of these fundamentalists churches have powerful women who are really the ones running everything, and they just pretend like the men are in charge.

    Music is always southern gospel, and you will stand, sing, and clap and act like you are enjoying it or ten people will be over after the service to find out what is wrong.

    Calvinista — Obey the elders absolutely. You may not ask questions, imply something is wrong, or even think for yourself.

    Women are not allowed to speak unless spoken to, and even then have nothing beneficial to say, since they are clearly out to sabotage your relationship with God.

    Dress code varies by church, but is often casual, as that draws a lot of people in to get them to sign that covenant.

    HOT BUTTON ISSUE

    Fundie Baptist — Politics and legislating morality, even if you agree with them on the issue they are harping on. I have tried to analyze why fundamentalists are so passionate about politics and have come up empty. It’s something that doesn’t come directly out of their theology. There is an element of making themselves famous/known by it. I think a few people started it, and it just became expected practice.

    Calvinista — That you are not a covenantal member of their church.

    GETTING RID OF EVANGELIZERS

    Fundie Baptist – Tell them you love Jesus, and they’ll be your best friend for 10 minutes then likely never bother you again

    Calvinista – Signing their church covenant might get them to leave you alone for awhile, but they’ll probably expect more and more time from you given to church activities, and be back often to tell you everything you are doing wrong

    QUICK ANALYSIS

    I think the main reason the Calvinistas were able to take over the SBC so fast is that Baptists are way too trusting of whoever comes to their church and acts like a member. This is true for fundamentalist Baptists as well as traditional Baptists (who may be more politically moderate). The Calvinistas are much more cunning in that respect, forcing people to sign on the dotted line.

    I’m certain that Paige Patterson and Jerry Falwell, Sr. had no idea what Al Mohler had in mind when they changed the BFM 2000. I don’t think a lot of people realize how much Falwell was related to the changes, as he was independant Baptist at the time. Falwell made a big deal of promising to join the SBC if the passages about women were added, but no one questioned the other changes, which they should have. They believed in the concepts of soul competency and the priesthood of the believers, and had no reason to change those.

    Liberty remains independent from the SBC, and calls themselves the largest Christian university instead of focusing on their Baptist roots.

    This is absolutely hilarious.

  102. okrapod wrote:

    Back in the early Billy Graham days when the word evangelical was becoming popular that is exactly the reason given at the time for the use of the word.

    A popular book around New Cal circles promoted years back actually blames Billy Graham for diluting the “Gospel” in evangelistism. The book compares evangelical with ecumenical and puts Billy Graham in the latter category.

    https://www.amazon.com/Evangelicalism-Divided-Record-Crucial-Change/dp/0851517838#productDescription_secondary_view_div_1487092966403

    I have no idea who fits into what categories of fundamentalists/Evangelical. It seems to be who ever is making the rules today. When I think of fundamentalists, I think of KJO, Jack Hyles, Bob Jones, etc. Boy was I wrong, I guess.

    I do remember Falwell and the SBC flirting. I liken it to the Neo Cals simikar attempt trying to be too big to ignore with Acts 29, SGM, Presbyterian groups, Baptist 21, Sojourn, etc.

    IMO, at that level, I think it boils down to who gets to control the resources.

    AL Mohler eventually won. :o)

  103. Lydia wrote:

    I have no idea who fits into what categories of fundamentalists/Evangelical. It seems to be who ever is making the rules today. When I think of fundamentalists, I think of KJO, Jack Hyles, Bob Jones, etc. Boy was I wrong, I guess.

    I was specifically talking about fundamentalist Baptists, though I believe fundamentalism is wider than just Baptists. I still think it’s more of a style of church, and not so much a belief system, so it can encompass various theologies. I think it’s attractive to people who want to impress others with how devoted they are to God, just as neo-Calvinism attracts those who want to impress people with how smart and logical they are (though I don’t think either works as well as they think it does).

    I do think the neo-Cals are redefining evangelical to include themselves and make themselves attractive to potential members, just as they redefine lots of other words for the same reasons.

  104. Lydia wrote:

    AL Mohler eventually won.

    If SBC wanted the resources of and control over the then loosely connected fundamentalist empire, varied though it be, then SBC and Al Mohler lost. But SBC did retain control of itself and in that Al Mohler won. If Jerry wanted a slice of the non-fundamentalist Baptist pie, then he lost but then he/they went out an became a big power of their own and right now Jerry Jr is head of an education task force appointed by the current president to do something or other in the field of education. Depends on what you call winning and what you call losing.

  105. @ ishy:

    That’s quite the list of distinctives there ishy. It begs the question:
    What is it in the human psyche that causes folks to sign onto all this stuff and put themselves under such toltalitarian religious regimes?
    Probably a good question for the Deebs to explore in an upcoming post?

  106. Among the fundamentalists I found several recognizable situations which may have contributed to the fact that they were fundamentalists. I ran across a number of died in the wool anti-alcohol people who grew up in a home with an alcoholic father for example. I ran across a number of people who would not have succeeded as most popular, or top academic, or sports person in high school, but who found themselves as it were in scripture study or quartet singing or faithfully showing up when the doors were open. And I found people who were fleeing the cultural revolution of the 70s and 80s, and concurrently fleeing ‘higher criticism’ which became sort of an umbrella term for religious liberalism. But most of them, while a tad more earnest and perhaps a tad driven, were nevertheless honest to goodness sincere christians trying their best as they knew to do.

  107. Muff Potter wrote:

    What is it in the human psyche that causes folks to sign onto all this stuff and put themselves under such toltalitarian religious regimes?

    Well, like I said just now….

    But also, baptist fundamentalism does not have anything like the totalitarian regimes that I hear described in neo-calvinism. There are no contracts to sign. No problem with leaving the fold and moving on. And those who continually ‘struggle’ but don’t ever seem to get with the program are more than welcome to continue to struggle in their midst, just have to declare themselves struggling and there you go.

    There is a down side, of course, but that does not mean that they do not have much to offer as well.

  108. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    Sermons often taken from one verse, sometimes out of context, and about five minutes in you realize you have no idea what this story about a golf ball has to do with Micah 6:8. This goes for the rest of the sermon.
    I had that happen to me once, during my time at Cal Poly. My dorm roomie & I were sampling a splinter church someone had recommended to us and the wild man-looking preacher (big shaggy beard and loud voice) was preaching on Revelation (natch).
    Well, he began with that verse mentioning the “Nicolaitans” and that Greek had two words for “Priest” — Presbyteros and Ekklesiastika. From there he spun a long web of connections and SCRIPTURE until some twenty minutes later he PROVED that Catholics worship Satan.
    It was an example of what would later be called “Fridge Logic”. As long as he was preaching he made perfect SCRIPTURAL sense, but ten minutes after the sermon ended you were “WTF did I just hear? A Kook Rant?”

    Just once? I am so jealous!

    One of the reasons I was so tired of SBC and non-denom churches was the useless and yet tiring sermons. Even in seminary, the preaching professor insisted this was “expositional Bible preaching”, and yet he could never answer my question as to why it was when 95% of the sermon had very little to do with the verses covered.

    And you went to Cal Poly…

    I grew up in the Bay Area, had a number of friends go there. All engineers. I don’t do math. At all. I’d rather be shot. But I hear it’s pretty in SLO.

  109. okrapod wrote:

    If SBC wanted the resources of and control over the then loosely connected fundamentalist empire, varied though it be, then SBC and Al Mohler lost. But SBC did retain control of itself and in that Al Mohler won. If Jerry wanted a slice of the non-fundamentalist Baptist pie, then he lost but then he/they went out an became a big power of their own and right now Jerry Jr is head of an education task force appointed by the current president to do something or other in the field of education. Depends on what you call winning and what you call losing.

    I don’t think Mohler was ever interested in the fundies, except by which they might be potential money-makers or takeovers. I think Mohler just used Patterson and Falwell to accomplish the changes that would allow him to take over. Whatever deal was struck, I think Patterson, and even maybe Falwell, believed they would be king of the Baptists, and then suddenly Mohler came from nowhere and was in charge of it all.

    How Mohler assembled so much power so quickly would make a good biography.

  110. I do think the neo-Cals are redefining evangelical to include themselves and make themselves attractive to potential members, just as they redefine lots of other words for the same reasons.

    Some historians define evangelicalism as being based on 4 priorities: conversionism, crucicentrism, Biblicism, and activism.

    I don’t think the Quiverfull/Bill Gothard folks fit that definition, since they seem more focused on breeding more Christians than on converting more of them. And the neo-cals don’t fit either because they’ve sidelined Christ, and their focus doesn’t seem to be on the sacrifice on the Cross itself, but rather on the Father’s wrath which it appeased (PSA).

    Keep in mind that historians primarily regard American evangelicalism as having originated with Pietistm, Methodistm, and revivalism; none of whom the neo-Cals are particularly fond of. (19th century evangelicalism was arguably a lot less conservative than its 20th century offshoot would be, because a lot of evangelicals in the 19th century were postmillennialist and therefore saw social reforms as potentially ushering in the Kingdom).

  111. Lydia wrote:

    @ ishy:
    I thought Hyles, Jones, etc called themselves Baptists?

    Jones was not Baptist; he considered himself non-denominational. He grew up Methodist. Some of BJU teaching has a charismatic flair. Hyles is Baptist.

    I still think it covers all of them…

  112. Loren Haas wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    Nancy, it was actually the Atheistic Director and he was neck deep in the scandal:

    Oh no!
    My auto-correct made a Freudian slip.
    ATHLETIC director

  113. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    Keep in mind that historians primarily regard American evangelicalism as having originated with Pietistm, Methodistm, and revivalism; none of whom the neo-Cals are particularly fond of. (19th century evangelicalism was arguably a lot less conservative than its 20th century offshoot would be, because a lot of evangelicals in the 19th century were postmillennialist and therefore saw social reforms as potentially ushering in the Kingdom).

    Despite their insistence that they are always more right than everyone else, I think the neo-Cals are much more concerned with assimilating people than with using correct terminology. In fact, I think their constant redefinitions are just another sign of their deception methodology and the fact that their leaders are not true believers.

    In other words, I think it’s all a pyramid scheme.

  114. @ okrapod:
    I think the CR was mostly about controlling resources. Who knew the young guy mentored and employed by the “liberals” would be the eventual Pope of the SBC. I agree that who won what depends is in the eye of the beholder.

  115. @ ishy:

    What we thought at the time, where I was and when I was, was that Jerry wanted to escape the label of fundamentalist in order to better build Liberty and attract students from a larger pool. I had no idea that he wanted to play politics in the SB convention.

  116. okrapod wrote:

    What we thought at the time, where I was and when I was, was that Jerry wanted to escape the label of fundamentalist in order to better build Liberty and attract students from a larger pool. I had no idea that he wanted to play politics in the SB convention.

    That may very well be true. And that would explain what bonus he was getting to throw his weight in.

    I am not sure about playing politics in the SBC, I was just echoing what someone else said earlier in the thread (maybe Nancy?). And I think Falwell really did believe it would lead to more people gaining faith in Christ. He talked about that quite a bit.

  117. Lydia wrote:

    Hee hee. I thought they were branches of the IFB. Are the Westport Baptists, IFB?

    Westboro? I am not even sure you can consider them a church. They’re really just one family of lawyers. And Fred was bat crazy.

  118. ishy wrote:

    Westboro? I am not even sure you can consider them a church. They’re really just one family of lawyers. And Fred was bat crazy.

    Incidentally, Westboro or others of their persuasion spit on me going into the 1999 SBC convention. I was a student and got extra credit for going, and it was in my hometown (Atlanta).

    There was a gay pride group also protesting, but several of them gave me hugs.

  119. Muff Potter wrote:

    What is it in the human psyche that causes folks to sign onto all this stuff and put themselves under such toltalitarian religious regimes?

    I grew up around Catholics who believed birth control was against God and always had the biggest families. Divorce was a one way ticket out of the church. No remarriage in the church without annulment (even with kids!). No interfaith marriage in the church, pregnant teens sent away, priest as final word and absolver of sins. And so on.

    Of course my Catholic peers rebelled like crazy (in secret) so that might be why the “rules” evolved. But, we thought they were totalitarian/Fundy ones.

  120. Max wrote:

    “imagine a two-day event packed full of workshops, exhibits, and fun around the stuff that men love: hunting, fishing, football, motorcycles, racing, extreme sports, and other outdoor activities — featuring some of the leading experts in the world.”
    Or better yet, imagine a two-day event packed full of the stuff that God loves: humility, prayer, repentance, and seeking His face – featuring some of the most Godly men in the world.
    God, forgive us for substituting the best things with things of the world … for focusing on ourselves and not You.

    MAX MAX MAX – I am lovin’ on your posts. Especially this above.

    Imagine if these men took the weekend to fast and pray. Seriously.

    I think this struck a chord with me because I loathe these types of events for women – all touchy-feely weekends meant to be filled with tears and laughter and sisterhood. Not that there is anything wrong with tears, laughter or sisterhood. But what my heart yearns for is a time to gather with women around those things you mentioned which bear lasting fruit. I could never put it into words until you did it for me. Thanks.

  121. Nancy2 wrote:

    Dethrone the abusers!
    I would like to say a lot more, but my temper is getting the best of me……. most of my thoughts would not be constructive.

    Why is it that I thank God for your gift of ‘temper’ which is serving the Church far better than you realize, NANCY TWO 🙂 Stay strong.

  122. ishy wrote:

    And I think Falwell really did believe it would lead to more people gaining faith in Christ. He talked about that quite a bit.

    I liked Jerry personally, though I did not agree with everything he did. I went to Thomas Road a time or two and he was so kind and warm and outgoing. Perhaps jolly is close to the word I am looking for. As far as could tell he knew almost everybody by name. I can see why people took up with him. One short story. YoungDaughter was working check out at a local grocery store when Jerry stopped in to get some stuff. He recognized YD as a student of Liberty, though did not know her name, and he was warm and ‘pastorly’ in the exchange between then. She thought he was one of the nicest people she ever met. And a bit of a rascal bouncing his car all over campus like he had lost his last brain cell, just enjoying people. That is a real talent to be able to relate to people like that. But there is a downside to all things and all people; life is like that.

  123. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It’s all about promoting the brand – the manly-man, Christian dude who must profess his manliness by doing all those manly things.

    Like rape.

    http://people.com/crime/toby-willis-the-willis-family-star-arrest-for-child-rape/

    sometimes an ‘example’ shows up that harbors ALL of the hell of patriarchy: quiver-full ‘christian’, controlling, ‘male headship’, child abuse, rape, etc. etc. ……. and all in one person ….. THIS is a poster boy for the updated ‘Josh Duggar’ brand of patriarchy

  124. ishy wrote:

    Westboro? I am not even sure you can consider them a church.

    When I first saw their website, I thought it was a parody site. Like the onion, for church.

    I still think that’s not far off.

  125. Lydia wrote:

    No remarriage in the church without annulment (even with kids!).

    I can never get over the concept that you have an ‘annulment’ when you have been married 10-20 years, with kids.

    It’s like the people who will tell you you can’t get divorced in an abusive case, but you can separate from your husband for the rest of your life. As if that’s a ‘marriage’.

  126. LT wrote:

    The real question is why is it that the same students who PROTESTED Falwell Jr’s support of Trump, based on Trump being a misogynist, are doing nothing to protest the appearance of a guy like Roethlisberger?

    Because it’s not political? It’s more fun to protest a politician than a football player.

  127. okrapod wrote:

    And a bit of a rascal bouncing his car all over campus like he had lost his last brain cell, just enjoying people. That is a real talent to be able to relate to people like that. But there is a downside to all things and all people; life is like that.

    He once drove up on the sidewalk behind me honking and yelling out the window, “ISHY! GET OUT OF THE WAY!!” then he cackled manically at my panicked look and drove away.

  128. @ ishy:
    WOW !!!! Thank you for this. You and Okrapod have pointed out some important differences that I have not been aware of. My use of the word ‘fundamentalist’ has been informed by what I first read on Wade Burleson’s blog concerning the ‘fundamentalist take-over’ of the SBC with some of the fall-out for missionaries and some of the power-grabbing by Pressler and Patterson ….. lots of destructive fall-out in my view.

    Is there a way to separate the larger category ‘fundamentalist’ into sub-categories of what is ‘respected’ and what is seen to be truly destructive????? Are there some more useful words out there that are more clearly definitive?

  129. ishy wrote:

    Fundamentalist Baptists may seem like rules lawyers, but they really believe it makes them (and everyone else) better people, and they believe in letting people have freedom.

    thank you for this insight …. apparently there is a very wide gulf between the Calvinistas with their strict determinism and the people you are calling ‘Fundamentalist Baptists’ who believe in letting people have freedom. I take it that ‘freedom’ in this regard would mean ‘free will’? What is known as ‘soul competency’? What I would call being in possession of a God-given moral conscience that could be guided by the Holy Spirit?

    We have around here a group called the ‘Free Will Baptist Church’ and I wonder if they would fall into the category you identify as ‘Fundamentalist Baptists’. I have a feeling they are as far from neo-Cals as the East is from the West. 🙂

    Thanks again for sharing your insights.

  130. Christiane wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    Fundamentalist Baptists may seem like rules lawyers, but they really believe it makes them (and everyone else) better people, and they believe in letting people have freedom.
    thank you for this insight …. apparently there is a very wide gulf between the Calvinistas with their strict determinism and the people you are calling ‘Fundamentalist Baptists’ who believe in letting people have freedom. I take it that ‘freedom’ in this regard would mean ‘free will’? What is known as ‘soul competency’? What I would call being in possession of a God-given moral conscience that could be guided by the Holy Spirit?
    We have around here a group called the ‘Free Will Baptist Church’ and I wonder if they would fall into the category you identify as ‘Fundamentalist Baptists’. I have a feeling they are as far from neo-Cals as the East is from the West.
    Thanks again for sharing your insights.

    I agree. In my experience, Fundamentalist Baptists (but, like all other labels, the definition is in the eyes of the beholders) do very much believe in free-will… many will take people back that do bad things, and over and over again… you are responsible for your actions… they also a realistic, some say jaded, view of sin in everything… and some branches are big into not just staying away from sinful things, but staying away from people/organizations that are more “liberal” than they are… they are second degree separitst.. for example, they will associate with Billy Graham..
    They are fundamentalist in being literal about the Bible.. but again, it is always selective literal, but they do not like it when you point that out!!!

  131. Christiane wrote:

    Is there a way to separate the larger category ‘fundamentalist’ into sub-categories of what is ‘respected’ and what is seen to be truly destructive????? Are there some more useful words out there that are more clearly definitive?

    Not really, as it depends on the leader or individual group. Churches are autonomous, and make decisions for themselves. Autonomy is still supposed to be true for the SBC, but I have a feeling the next big move by Mohler and friends will be to dismantle that and put a more authoritarian structure in place.

  132. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    you are responsible for your actions… they also a realistic, some say jaded, view of sin in everything… and some branches are big into not just staying away from sinful things, but staying away from people/organizations that are more “liberal” than they are… they are second degree separitst.. for example, they will associate with Billy Graham..
    They are fundamentalist in being literal about the Bible.. but again, it is always selective literal, but they do not like it when you point that out!!!

    Yeah, I think that comes with free will, in that you become afraid that your humanness will mess up your or someone else’s relationship with God. Or you might cause someone to not follow Christ. They are definitely afraid of a lot of things. That is something they have in common with the neo-Cals, though I think they are much more trusting of God to help them through it.

    I think a lot of groups are selectively literal, just about different things. What they really disagree on is what is most important to be literal about.

  133. Christiane wrote:

    Is there a way to separate the larger category ‘fundamentalist’ into sub-categories of what is ‘respected’ and what is seen to be truly destructive????? Are there some more useful words out there that are more clearly definitive?

    I know you asked ishy but I can’t resist. No.

    There is a lot of individual freedom in a lot of things, and people disagree all the time with each other and maybe they even disagree with themselves. This aspect of baptist fundamentalism is soooo different from what I perceived to be the catholic way of doing here at St L’s. In my experience catholics tend to be waaaay more careful in what they say and how they say it and to whom they say it. My experience with you all is limited, but I think this is probably a good contrast between catholicism and baptist fundamentalism.

    Also, in baptist fundamentalism there is nobody and no group and no process and no one particular school of thought which would determine what is ‘respected’ as compared to what is ‘destructive’. Like ishy said, there is theological leeway. Baptist fundamentalism is a large bunch of individuals running around carrying bibles and somebody within hearing distance is sure to be ready to debate any idea or point you want to bring up. But be careful in asking because somebody is sure to inquire about your salvation, then flip the bible open to the Romans Road (Romans as in the bible) and may even ask you if you want to pray with them. They are sincere about your soul; this is not an act. And they will most certainly pray for you and ask their SS class to pray for you since you are considered a ‘contact’, which is to say that God was behind the fact that you and they crossed paths and they now have the responsibility to at least pray for you.

    There Is No Central Authority except of course the bible.

  134. And Now for Something Completely Different:

    The name “Ignite”.
    Same naming convention as “Acquire the Fire”?
    (And with the same baggage?)

  135. okrapod wrote:

    I liked Jerry personally, though I did not agree with everything he did. I went to Thomas Road a time or two and he was so kind and warm and outgoing. Perhaps jolly is close to the word I am looking for. As far as could tell he knew almost everybody by name. I can see why people took up with him.

    If you’re talking the original Jerry Falwell, I came across these stories about him shortly after his death:

    Staff at his favorite restaurant reminisced that he was a big tipper. Said Christians had a reputation as lousy tippers and that he was trying to offset that.

    He did not like getting fanboyed; if someone came up to him all fanboy-gushing, he’d punch them in the gut.

    After Teletubby-gate, he got sent a lot of Tinky Winky dolls in protest. Said his grandkids ended up with the biggest Teletubby collections in Virginia that way.

    And his comment when he was caretaker during the PTL scandal, getting sabotaged by Jim & Tammy loyalists every step of the way:
    “If I’d known what I was getting into, I’d have taken the first flight back to Lynchburg.”

  136. ishy wrote:

    Just once? I am so jealous!

    That’s the only one I remember. Maybe because it was so over-the-top.

    And you went to Cal Poly…

    I grew up in the Bay Area, had a number of friends go there. All engineers. I don’t do math. At all. I’d rather be shot. But I hear it’s pretty in SLO.

    I was Cal Poly POMONA, not SLO.

    Known for Agriculture, Architecture, and Engineering.

  137. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    They are fundamentalist in being literal about the Bible.. but again, it is always selective literal, but they do not like it when you point that out!!!

    it’s that ‘selectiveness’ that is problematic if a group is said to be, or self-defines as ‘literal about the Bible’

  138. ishy wrote:

    Autonomy is still supposed to be true for the SBC, but I have a feeling the next big move by Mohler and friends will be to dismantle that and put a more authoritarian structure in place.

    I am fearful for the old people in the SBC who are faithful Christian people, if this is true. How will they cope? Will the ones who cannot ‘conform’ to the neo-Cal cultish ways be put out? Where will they go?

    For the old, Church is often a life-line. I hope someone speaks for them and advocates FOR them if Mohler gets his way. Sad to think about this.

  139. Christiane wrote:

    We have around here a group called the ‘Free Will Baptist Church’ and I wonder if they would fall into the category you identify as ‘Fundamentalist Baptists’.

    The Free Will Baptists split into more than one group. Splitting is what Baptists do best. One group is fundamentalist. One group is not. And whether there are other groups I know not. You would have to ask that church which kind they are.

  140. ishy wrote:

    I think a lot of groups are selectively literal, just about different things. What they really disagree on is what is most important to be literal about.

    Yes. Absolutely.

  141. @ Jeffrey J . Chalmers:
    Thanks Jeffrey,
    yes, I had been told about the ‘Billy Graham’ controversy among some in the SBC. My Church loves Billy Graham, which seems theologically strange, but he has been identified as someone who believes in and preaches Jesus Christ Crucified and Risen From the Dead, and so, we have great affection for him in my Church. When Billy passes from this Earth, I think my Church’s bells will toll in mourning. Sometimes we show respect for the good people of other faith communities in that way, as the mourning bell of the Catholic Cathedral tolled in Salt Lake City when the beloved Mormon President of the Church Gordon B. Hinckley passed away.

  142. Christiane wrote:

    I am fearful for the old people in the SBC who are faithful Christian people, if this is true. How will they cope? Will the ones who cannot ‘conform’ to the neo-Cal cultish ways be put out? Where will they go?
    For the old, Church is often a life-line. I hope someone speaks for them and advocates FOR them if Mohler gets his way. Sad to think about this.

    They will be fine. The only problems would be about doctrine, and I am with Max on this in that if they knew or cared they would have done something long ago. They don’t care. Perhaps never did care all that much about doctrine. SBC has always been partially calvinist and partially not. IMO it will not be a big deal to them one way or the other.

  143. @ okrapod:
    Trying to get Baptists in lockstep is like herding cats. That is why Mohler/Ezell were more interested in planting churches that did not have the name Baptist in them– even though they were paid for by the SBC. The church takeovers were not as profitable as they kept splitting. Now they are trying desperately to change the subject… Again.

  144. ishy wrote:

    I think a lot of groups are selectively literal, just about different things. What they really disagree on is what is most important to be literal about.

    Great way to put it.

  145. On a lighter note:

    Sunday at my church the bishop came and we had baptism and confirmation along with the usual stuff. But a visit from the bishop is a tad elaborate. Alright, more than just a tad.

    So oldest g’kid got confirmed and the other grandparents came. Nobody else from the other side of the family came; the young person’s father did not come. Now the other grandparents are baptist, deacon and choir baptists, every time the door is open baptist. Lifelong baptist. Have the bible partly memorized baptist (that’s a stretch of course). They of course were gracious and had impeccable manners, and there was much friendliness all around, but inside they were baptists. They did not take communion with us.

    So I am thinking that I could do a comedy routine about this more or less like Mark Lowry goes to Home Depot. I could call it Nana and Papa Baptist go to the episcopal church. It is just a thought.

  146. okrapod wrote:

    I could call it Nana and Papa Baptist go to the episcopal church. It is just a thought.

    Loved this comment. LOL

  147. I must admit that at first I was a little put off (i.e., took umbrage to all you Neo Cal trolls) by viewing Ben Roethlisberger through the lens of the allegations; then I read the post. Now I see that it is completely correct and the behavior is considered alleged only because nothing has been brought to and through trial. The worst he seems to have received is a “boys will be boys” and “it’s time to grow up” speech from various D.A.s.

    I wondered why LU would host, much less promote, a conference on authentic manhood which featured the likes of Roethlisberger, Tony Stewart, Joe White, etc. (unlike Max) and then I remembered that Falwell the Younger prominently tweeted a picture of himself with Trump in front of an adult magazine cover featuring Trump (Worst. Centerfold. Ever.) and I thought…maybe Falwell the Minor is looking for his own famous names to put alongside his glamour shot.

  148. Most of you are not in Texas and just don’t ” get it” he’s a FOOTBALL player…..He IS God….

  149. Christiane wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    Fundamentalist Baptists may seem like rules lawyers, but they really believe it makes them (and everyone else) better people, and they believe in letting people have freedom.

    thank you for this insight …. apparently there is a very wide gulf between the Calvinistas with their strict determinism and the people you are calling ‘Fundamentalist Baptists’ who believe in letting people have freedom. I take it that ‘freedom’ in this regard would mean ‘free will’? What is known as ‘soul competency’? What I would call being in possession of a God-given moral conscience that could be guided by the Holy Spirit?

    We have around here a group called the ‘Free Will Baptist Church’ and I wonder if they would fall into the category you identify as ‘Fundamentalist Baptists’. I have a feeling they are as far from neo-Cals as the East is from the West.

    Thanks again for sharing your insights.

    There was a “Free Will Baptist Church” a while back (called Gulnare, I believe) that got a lot of publicity for banning interracial marriages. A lot of commenters on the news articles were pointing out the obvious irony.

  150. Free Will Baptists are classic Arminians. That is what they mean by free will. About as far as you can get from Calvinist and be in the same state 🙂

    Most are hyper conservative, often downright holiness when it comes to teaching and conduct, although they deny entire sanctification.

    Where traditional SBC are “once saved always saved” these folks are “if you are saved and lose your salvation you are now always lost.” As opposed to Wesleyans who think you can be saved, lose salvation, regain it, lose it, regain it……..

  151. Christiane wrote:

    Sometimes we show respect for the good people of other faith communities in that way, as the mourning bell of the Catholic Cathedral tolled in Salt Lake City when the beloved Mormon President of the Church Gordon B. Hinckley passed away.

    Contrast your Church’s gesture of kindness and respect with some of the more virulent forms of fundagelicalism. The latter would allow no such sign of respect. If anything, they’d revel in an under current of cocksure smugness that Hinckley’s roasting in hell (in accordance with their religion).

  152. Muff Potter wrote:

    Contrast your Church’s gesture of kindness and respect with some of the more virulent forms of fundagelicalism. The latter would allow no such sign of respect. If anything, they’d revel in an under current of cocksure smugness that Hinckley’s roasting in hell (in accordance with their religion).

    it’s HOW they get to that way of thinking that terrifies me …… Pres. Hinckley was a good man and was known as such by mainline Christians as well …… he was a very beloved kindly person. Some would call him ‘saintly’.

    I don’t understand the ‘virulence’ or the ‘cocksure smugness’ among any group of people who claim Christ as Lord. It doesn’t ‘translate’. Nope. It doesn’t make sense.

  153. @ Christiane:

    Did anybody actually do anything egregious or virulent or such when this man died? I don’t remember seeing anything in the media about that.

  154. linda wrote:

    Where traditional SBC are “once saved always saved” these folks are “if you are saved and lose your salvation you are now always lost.” As opposed to Wesleyans who think you can be saved, lose salvation, regain it, lose it, regain it…….

    Yes they do. However, In all fairness to the FWB they use Hebrews 6 for this belief, and that passage is more complex than the idea of ‘losing’ salvation, like say one would lose their car keys. It does not say for instance that if one falls into sin then one loses one’s salvation. It does not have anything to do with the catholic concept of mortal sin.

    So let’s see, some people adhere to the FWB position on salvation. some people believe in mortal sin, some believe that you can’t know if you are one of the elect in this life, some say once saved always saved, some say that people are working toward salvation but cannot be said to ‘have’ salvation yet, and some say there is no such thing as saved vs lost and it is all fantasy and some say that the Christ event saved the entire world so there is such a thing as saved but not such a thing as lost. What have I left out of this list? It is so good to know that Christianity is so clear on this issue. (Last sentence is sarcasm.)

  155. Remnant wrote:

    Imagine if these men took the weekend to fast and pray. Seriously.

    Remnant, I long for the day when the “remnant” gets serious about the things of God and activate the “Then Will I” of God:

    “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN WILL I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14)

    IF My People … THEN Will I. But will we?

  156. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Leslie wrote:
    My dear husband of 40 years is a geek. He is also a writer. He had been published in 3 anthologies in the last two years.
    What genre does he write in?
    And were those anthologies small-press or mainstream?

    One was published by Los Positas College. The other two are on Amazon. “Across The Genre’s”. And Voices of the Valley” Two of the stories are on child abuse. The third is about Geeks and computers.

  157. Lydia wrote:

    I think the CR was mostly about controlling resources.

    SBC theo-politics have always been about that! Whoever is on the throne at the time is interested in controlling SBC’s vast resources (seminaries, publishing house, mission agencies, 45,000+ churches, etc.). The elite haven’t proven to be motivated by things like reaching souls for Christ! It’s New Calvinism’s turn to drive the car … they too may run off the road when a newer movement comes along – next time I hope it’s a genuine God-thing.

  158. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I think the CR was mostly about controlling resources.

    SBC theo-politics have always been about that! Whoever is on the throne at the time is interested in controlling SBC’s vast resources (seminaries, publishing house, mission agencies, 45,000+ churches, etc.). The elite haven’t proven to be motivated by things like reaching souls for Christ! It’s New Calvinism’s turn to drive the car … they too may run off the road when a newer movement comes along – next time I hope it’s a genuine God-thing.

    If the truth is told the FUNDAMENTALIST stole the SBC–they did not support through their giving the seminaries etc. yet they took them over and ran off the people who supported them. I am not surprised at all that the CR failed IMO.

  159. Remnant wrote:

    But what my heart yearns for is a time to gather with women around those things you mentioned which bear lasting fruit.

    Start with a woman or two of like-mind to pray and seek God’s face. I’m convinced you will never convince the church masses to join you; they prefer to swim in shallow water. All God needs is a small band of faithful believers to move hell out of a community (or a church!)… “IF” they humble themselves, repent, seek His face, and listen for His voice.

  160. mot wrote:

    C–they did not support through their giving the seminaries etc. yet they took them over and ran off the people who supported them. I am no

    Is wasn’t a Conservative Resurgence, it was espionage and infiltration. I don’t think it failed.

  161. Nancy2 wrote:

    mot wrote:

    C–they did not support through their giving the seminaries etc. yet they took them over and ran off the people who supported them. I am no

    Is wasn’t a Conservative Resurgence, it was espionage and infiltration. I don’t think it failed.

    My point was they failed in the sense they destroyed the mission of the SBC.

  162. SureWhyNot? wrote:

    This is absolutely hilarious.

    I too thought Ishy’s list was spot on. And having lived through the Salem Witch Trials II at my former rabid, authoritarian, abusive NeoCalvinist gulag Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley…I thought the list was sobering.

  163. @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    I might add that Fundies get really hung up on devil music.
    Also, at my fundie high school we had a chapel sermon about how holding hands leads to murder! You see, holding hands leads to kissing, which leads to all those other bad things which leads to abortion, which is murder!

  164. Max wrote:

    Start with a woman or two of like-mind to pray and seek God’s face. I’m convinced you will never convince the church masses to join you; they prefer to swim in shallow water. All God needs is a small band of faithful believers to move hell out of a community (or a church!)

    True:
    Two praying women moved God to visit the Isle of Lewis (Scottish Hebrides). It began with two housebound sisters in their eighties, one blind, the other crippled with arthritis, waging a prayer campaign that delighted Heaven and defeated Hell. http://bit.ly/2l6nyn6

  165. If an alleged rapist and a child sex abuse cover-upper is all the church has to offer (for leadership) – how can it be called the church? What is the point?

  166. JYJames wrote:

    If an alleged rapist and a child sex abuse cover-upper is all the church has to offer (for leadership) – how can it be called the church? What is the point?

    Doing church without God.

  167. Max wrote:

    Doing church without God.

    So, not really church.
    How could God possibly even show up. Mind-boggling.
    Someone commented above that their “god” will be there. Who is that?
    Go figure.
    Makes one’s skin crawl.

  168. Bill M wrote:

    And: “Superior Court Judge Cara Beatty, who acknowledged she has read numerous letters of support from people who back Crawford,”

    Head spins.

    Maybe there needs to be some kind of letter writing campaign to support victims.

  169. K.D. wrote:

    Most of you are not in Texas and just don’t ” get it” he’s a FOOTBALL player…..He IS God….

    Apparently that’s the way he sees it.

  170. Bill M wrote:

    molly245 wrote:
    Note that “many of his congregation” showed up at the courthouse to support him…
    No wonder I am “Done!!
    http://www.redding.com/story/news/local/2017/02/10/redding-pastor-accused-molesting-children/97749738/
    And: “Superior Court Judge Cara Beatty, who acknowledged she has read numerous letters of support from people who back Crawford,”
    Head spins.

    I am so glad for those motorcycle groups that show up for victims when no one else will.

  171. @ Muff Potter:
    I don’t know why it is a bigger deal when a big name celebrity religious guy dies than when John Doe nobody dies. It’s one thing I don’t get about our society.

  172. And no-one else has mentioned the title of this conference? It’s hilarious: Ignite Men. Oh go on then, if I must, pass me a match 😉

  173. JYJames wrote:

    If

    Question of the day. And why would such a “religious” system ever be trusted again unless the whole thing dismantled? What on earth did it have to do with Christ while hiding such heinous evil? I think people are very naive when it comes to religious caste systems.

  174. @ Beakerj:
    Lol! It went right over my head. Many SBC youth groups are named Ignite. See how that works? We become oblivious to the obvious!

  175. @ Lydia:

    Well, celebrity and all, be it religion or politics or whatever. But I don’t understand the church bell ringing procedure and mystique. Evidently some churches have bells or electronic chimes or something and some do not. The Greek church in my neighborhood does something more or less at noon every day, but that is the only church I know about who does that. I did hear one woman in a small group some years back (UMC) mention that a former church where she was switched from something manually operated to automatic electronic and of course some people wanted to get riled up about switching to electronic. I wonder if there is some theology behind all that, one way or the other.

  176. MAX, thanks for the encouragement. It’s difficult to find like-minded women in real life, and even if I did, the pressures of life with the responsibilities of raising a family and being the heart of her home, make it neigh on impossible for a woman to commit to setting aside time for gathering in study and prayer on a regular basis. It’s just a consequence if the times in which we live, I think.

  177. Lydia wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    I don’t know why it is a bigger deal when a big name celebrity religious guy dies than when John Doe nobody dies. It’s one thing I don’t get about our society.

    I don’t even know who that guy was, anyways. Big deal to some people in Salt Lake maybe.

  178. This doesn’t really surprise me, unfortunately. Conservative evangelicalism is so overwhelmingly defined by its reactionary opposition to feminism that being a “man’s man” qualifies you as a moral leader, regardless of your actual character. I wonder if they’ll be heading down to the rifle range in between sessions…

    More specific to this event, Liberty University seems absolutely hell-bent on convincing the world that they hate women and view them as worthless.

  179. Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    I don’t know why it is a bigger deal when a big name celebrity religious guy dies than when John Doe nobody dies. It’s one thing I don’t get about our society.

    I don’t even know who that guy was, anyways. Big deal to some people in Salt Lake maybe.

    I get it. Mine was more of a philosophical “why” people so revere religious celebrities of all stripes.

  180. My thoughts – Christianne, I was visiting my daughter and son-in-law in Salt Lake City when President Hinckley died. Even my son-in-law said how well he was loved. (They aren’t mormons).

    Football is almost a religion in itself in the south. It’s almost a sin if your kids are in highschool, not to go to a weekly game. So I can see why the conference is having BR there. Not that I agree though.

    The church we went to for awhile had a turkey shoot at Thanksgiving time. Quite common here, and most all the men go deer hunting (plus a lot of women).

    This conference seems like a big testosterone convention, nothing more. Glad I don’t have to hear about it being touted, down here in Texas. So let these so called manly men go to this convention and hear speakers that have no business being there. Wonder what they will learn. Not much, except for how they spent a lot of money for nothing.

  181. Harley wrote:

    Football is almost a religion in itself in the south. It’s almost a sin if your kids are in highschool, not to go to a weekly game. So I can see why the conference is having BR there.

    I would get it if they had Tim Tebow. But they probably couldn’t get him.

    This guy though???

  182. Back to the conference.

    I think it is tacky. Poor taste. Ridiculous. But some people are tacky and act ridiculously in poor taste, and if they want to spend their money on this it is their call. I am sure the university can find some use for the money. And I bet the wives of the attendees can use a few days away from their man and doing something else for a time rather than mostly whatever he wants to do. And, she can always confront him with how much money he spent of this poor taste program so now she has a right to an equal amount of cash to spend on herself. There may be something good that can be harvested from this.

    And, yes, the University should be embarrassed by this, but also yes there do seem to be right many men who just might be willing to part with some cash to do this. Education is a business. Religion is a business. Business is business. This is pure business, neither education nor religion.

  183. Second comment; other subject.

    In the south, and I am just a bit south of Lynchburg, there is football (bow) there is car racing (bow) there is hunting (bow) and none of this is exclusively for male fans. Lots and lots of women engage in the pursuit of following all that, all the way from dating a football player in high school (means the female has status) to following car racing including the personal lives of the drivers when possible, and including being facile with weaponry and ammunition and admiring the men who are. We also tend to respect the military (where was General Whoever in the lineup?) and grow tomatoes in the back yard.

    Some of those things describe me and some do not, but I would never/never/never criticize any people who follow football, racing, hunting or the military. Not out loud. Ever. And I am giving up on German Johnson and going back to Better Boy this spring.

  184. The reason we are lacking good male leadership in the church is that they are going to conferences like this and not praying and walking humbly.

  185. okrapod wrote:

    And, she can always confront him with how much money he spent of this poor taste program so now she has a right to an equal amount of cash to spend on herself.

    This was my mom’s philosophy on golf.

  186. okrapod wrote:

    Some of those things describe me and some do not, but I would never/never/never criticize any people who follow football, racing, hunting or the military.

    Yes. I love football and don’t get nascar at all, and I don’t want to hunt because clean up seems gross but I can shoot a gun all the same. There is nothing wrong with any of this. But to put a gloss of ‘Christian/male’ on all of it, and then ask for a bunch of money that could have been spent on actually hunting or what have you to hear ‘christian’ rapists and protectors of child molesters? That is a completely different thing.

    I am much more leery of these man events since hearing all the negative stuff about promise keepers, too. I don’t think we should be separating out by sex.

  187. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Dan from Georgia wrote:

    Late to the party here, but this advertisement and the guest speakers is only consistent with the belief that men can only learn and grow spiritually if it’s encased in the manly terms of sports sports sports, regardless of the witness of the guests personal lives.

    I was the Omega Male of my high school, where Football was the State Religion and “FAG!” was someone not completely into Football.

    Where does this leave guys like me?
    Beaten up in the gym showers while the PE coach looks on?
    Threatened with being dragged behind the backstop and raped?

    HUG…

    Really sorry and it pains me that people treated you that way. I too was called “Fag” once, along with “wuss” and “pussy” by a couple of toughs as a church retreat when I was a teen. That wasn’t the last time I was emotionally abused at a church function.

    The whole culture of getting guys to church through Sports Sports Sports really makes me sick. I don’t have anything against some sports (a few sports I do have a beef about), but c’mon, we are not dumb simpletons. And to bring in people of questionable reputation is beyond me.

  188. And these “Ignite” and “Acquire The Fire” conferences? Many teens show up bringing in their idols of the world to toss in a dumpster in a show of devotion to God, only to go back into the world and buy back those secular CDs and movies and magazines a few months later.

  189. @ Dan from Georgia:

    Indeed they do. What do you suggest as a solution to that problem?

    Our rector started out as a youth pastor with numeric success at the time, but followup years later has shown that the people who persist in the faith learned it at home, while those who do not tended to be kids who just came for the fun and when that is over they drifted away. So he has said that our new curate, when we get him, will not be primarily focusing on the youth and that the parents are going to have to pour themselves into their own kids to make it happen. I get that, but how should the church deal with kids from unchurched families, or from families who don’t care one way or the other. Is a little exposure better than nothing, or should we give up on trying to evangelize adolescents, or what?

  190. Lea wrote:

    I don’t think we should be separating out by sex.

    If we tell the men they can’t go off and hang out with just men (good luck on that) we also have to tell the women that they can’t go off and hang out with just women. I am not ready for that to happen in my life, but I think that those who favor that approach should be free to do whatever they think is best.

  191. okrapod,

    Not really sure if there is a single solution (I know you didn’t suggest a SINGLE solution in your comment above), or a silver bullet, so to speak, for keeping the youth in the faith. What you alluded to above may be a key factor – ongoing spiritual care. Healthy spiritual care. Whether through family or friends or a church. Not getting them so sign up for a program or overly committed to church functions and activities, but having good healthy people invest in them. Getting them to see Jesus as friend and savior, and not someone sitting over there shaking their fist at them for being a kid. Getting them to fall in love with Jesus, not some fundamentalist set of virtues or some church program. Ok, rambling a bit here.

    Anyways, the phenomena of going back to the things we have surrendered before isn’t unique to youth events, but is something that can be observed in many post-event lives of those in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, and beyond. Heck, even I do it. Honestly, I am on my 3rd copy of a Coldplay CD!

  192. okrapod wrote:

    If we tell the men they can’t go off and hang out with just men (good luck on that) we also have to tell the women that they can’t go off and hang out with just women.

    I don’t care what people want to do on their own (guys go golfing, women go shopping, whatever), I just don’t think that church should be making a point of always separating them out for bible study.

  193. @ Lea:

    I think separating out men and women specifically for studying the bible creates this blue/pink gospel problem. And riffing on what HUG said, it also can have negative affects for men and women who don’t conform to things like ladies tea, mens hunting, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with arranging a hunting trip, and inviting people from church. Or a ladies tea.

    But if you are studying the bible, there is no need to break them out. And I’m pretty sure conferences are stupid at this point, although if anyone has evidence to the contrary feel free to share.

  194. Lea and okrapod,

    re sports and separating the sexes in church. I once was on the side of “stop separating the sexes and just speak to us a people.” But eventually I came to a view that, if God is leading you to set up a ministry for a certain segment of society, be it men, women, artists, scientists, sports fans, etc, then if God is going to work that way, then so be it and who am I to argue.

    But honestly I steer away from “men’s groups” because they all seem to be the same: “men – behave your selves and become good little boys…keep your hands to yourselves and straighten up…and of btw lets meet for some football and chili next weekend…”

    OK, maybe a little jaded here. I would rather be in a group focused on ministering through the arts and sciences than anything else. And here in da south, those kinds of ministries are almost unheard of.

  195. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    @ Dan from Georgia
    Brining in the “big name” stars does not surprise me.. if you are all about getting more “butts” in the seat, what better way?

    True! Nevermind about bringing in some unknown saint who’s been misistering for a long time through persecution and trials…heck, then no one would show up, because we all want that faith that says “God has a wonderful plan for your life”, and that plan better not involve pain and suffering.

    /rant

  196. @ Gram3:

    “I think they may be upset by what they call functionally egalitarian marriages. Complementarian in name only. Just guessing here. Or they may be talking about guys who are irresponsible. Who knows? Regardless, I don’t see what race car driving or football, or the other stuff has to do with real manliness.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    yeah, “lack of male leadership in church” must be code for something else.

    or perhaps they have something very specific in mind with the general ‘male leadership’, something they want from men but aren’t getting it. something they don’t want from women but are getting.

    your idea that they feel threatened by equality/equal rights and the pro-woman movement (if we can call it that) and the growing trend in that direction makes sense to me.

    they can’t come out say what they think and feel. it would sound very bad, and make them look bad. it would merely reveal their innermost feelings: their deep insecurity and need to squash others to make them feel better about themselves — bad, indeed.

    so, they just use what has become the common tagline for being a ‘Gospel Man’ — lead, leadership. (i feel sick now)

    they remind me of KKK members but extremely timid. Timid perhaps because of how insecure they are, but also because i think deep down inside they know it is very wrong. And they can’t really face it. so, they cover it all up with making it a ‘gospel issue’. They know they can’t hide their identity with the white pointy hats — it would repel their target audience. So they have to hide their motives instead. Even from themselves.

    but this is old news.

  197. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    @ Dan from Georgia
    Brining in the “big name” stars does not surprise me.. if you are all about getting more “butts” in the seat, what better way?

    I dunno…
    How about The Gobbledy Gooker, Dink the Evil Clown (and his midget tag-team sidekick Doink), Cheatum the One-eyed Midget, and The Necrophilia Angle?
    http://www.wrestlecrap.com/
    All those (and other gimmicks) were to get more butts in seats.

  198. elastigirl wrote:

    they can’t come out say what they think and feel. it would sound very bad, and make them look bad.

    Absolutely. This whole thing, from the label ‘complementarian’ on, feels like deceit and talking in code.

    This is why no one will define complementarian truly, because if they said it out loud (beyond no female pastor) most sensible people would run the other direction.

  199. okrapod wrote:

    Back to the conference.
    I think it is tacky. Poor taste. Ridiculous. But some people are tacky and act ridiculously in poor taste, and if they want to spend their money on this it is their call.

    Ever heard of a game called “Tack-O”?
    You go to a mall gift shop and try to find the tackiest item in the store.

    There’s a variant called “Christian Tack-O”:
    You go to a Jesus Junk store (i.e. Christian Bookstore) and try to find the tackiest item there. I remember an Eighties radio interview with the then-editor of Wittenberg Door who had a large collection of “The Tackiest Items You Find in Christian Bookstores”, and some of them were well into “What Were They Thinking?” surrealism.

  200. Lea wrote:

    Absolutely. This whole thing, from the label ‘complementarian’ on, feels like deceit and talking in code.

    “Use proper code words: Relocation. Resettlement. Delousing.”
    Holocaust (miniseries)

    This is why no one will define complementarian truly, because if they said it out loud (beyond no female pastor) most sensible people would run the other direction.

    AKA “The Handmaid’s Tale FOR REAL, with US as the Commanders of Gilead”?
    Or “The Taliban, Except CHRISTIAN”?

  201. Harley wrote:

    This conference seems like a big testosterone convention, nothing more. Glad I don’t have to hear about it being touted, down here in Texas. So let these so called manly men go to this convention and hear speakers that have no business being there.

    And trash and urine-scent-mark the women’s restrooms in the convention center…

  202. Bill M wrote:

    And: “Superior Court Judge Cara Beatty, who acknowledged she has read numerous letters of support from people who back Crawford,”
    Head spins.

    Remember Boz T’s observation:
    In all his years as a prosecutor specializing in sexual abuse (especially pedo), he has NEVER seen a church come alongside the victim. ALWAYS “RALLY ROUND THE PERP, BOYS! GAWD SAITH!”

  203. Lea wrote:

    I just don’t think that church should be making a point of always separating them out for bible study.

    No, I don’t think that the church should ‘always’ do it either. But my recent experience in church in the last few decades has been that there may be no sunday school option for women only, or men only. In other words they take the ‘always’ in the other direction. I personally just avoid the entire scene. It is easier that way.

  204. @ Dan from Georgia:

    “But eventually I came to a view that, if God is leading you to set up a ministry for a certain segment of society, be it men, women, artists, scientists, sports fans, etc, then if God is going to work that way, then so be it and who am I to argue.”
    +++++++++++++

    i take “God is leading you to” with an industrial-size bag of salt.

    Seems to me God is leading men to cater to their insecurity by taking power away from others and giving it to themselves.

    These days, part and parcel of separating sexes in church is the implicit/explicit message that a woman pleases God when she gives up her power, and that a man pleases God when he takes her power from her.

  205. Just now, I heard a co-worker a few cubicles away say something about a newsfeed item where “They adopted two children from Africa and beat them to death in the name of God”. Went over to his cubicle, had him find the original news article (from Butte County, CA, circa 2010) and check it for the names “Pearl”, “Ezzo”, etc.

    Sure enough, “Michael Pearl” and “Desiring God Ministries” popped up in the article as the parents’ childrearing gurus. Quarter-inch plumbing supply line and all.

    I told him about this unofficial cult and how TWW, Spiritual Sounding Board, Homeschoolers Anonymous, etc, have been blowing the whistle on them for years.

  206. elastigirl wrote:

    These days, part and parcel of separating sexes in church is the implicit/explicit message that a woman pleases God when she gives up her power, and that a man pleases God when he takes her power from her.

    He holds the Whip, she feels the Whip.
    (And Pastor holds the Whip over him, and God holds the biggest Whip of all. Great Chain of Being.)

  207. Trying to see things in perspective here, and of course we all have different perspectives. Some people have brought up the issue of how things like football or car racing have to do with real manliness. I don’t know. Let me expand on that, why have a men’s camp out in the mountains some weekend (our parish does that) and why take the teens to a local gym a couple times a year for some sort of pit ball playing (we do that also) but what does that have to do with manliness or teen-ness? Or why should the women take one of those weekend trips maybe even going there on the train, just for fun? What does that have to do with being a godly woman?

    IMO, and in defense of this sort of thing, we are not just ‘saved’ for the sweet bye and bye and limited in living this current life to earnest and serious and perhaps even somber pursuit of issues. Since when can we not be whole persons between now and the sweet bye and bye?

    Disclaimer: Liberty could surely have done better in picking the attractions for this gathering under discussion. They made some bad choices. But to say that men ought not go off with men, or women with women, or that men and women including married partners become bound together like conjoined twins–not everybody wants that. And, it leaves the single and the widowed and the divorced in a really bad and awkward position.

  208. elastigirl wrote:

    These days, part and parcel of separating sexes in church is the implicit/explicit message that a woman pleases God when she gives up her power, and that a man pleases God when he takes her power from her.

    And I can make other people of other “religious” convictions mad when I say that they would like to take power from males and reserve that power for females. Regardless of the religious or other label, if we are talking about zero-sum power games, we are not going to get anywhere good relationship-wise.

    I am just as nauseated by some self-described feminists who claim to honor women (as long as they are the right kind of women) as I am by the “complementarians” who claim to honor women (as long as they are the right kind of women.) Same for men who fit corresponding categories.

  209. elastigirl wrote:

    These days, part and parcel of separating sexes in church is the implicit/explicit message that a woman pleases God when she gives up her power, and that a man pleases God when he takes her power from her.

    Well, that’s always been the world’s message. The church just tries to use God to keep doing it.

  210. Gram3 wrote:

    I am just as nauseated by some self-described feminists who claim to honor women (as long as they are the right kind of women) as I am by the “complementarians” who claim to honor women (as long as they are the right kind of women.) Same for men who fit corresponding categories.

    I think what bothers me is the idea that being a champion for your cause means you can be a horrible person, but if the other side does anything not even half as bad, they are much worse. Extremes are always guilty of this, no matter what side you are on.

    Extreme complementarians give men a whole lot of passes on horribly bad behavior, but should a woman want to run away from abuse, leave a church, or even just dare to have an opinion, she will be treated like a criminal. Actual criminals should be allowed to get away with their crimes, provided they are male.

  211. okrapod wrote:

    But my recent experience in church in the last few decades has been that there may be no sunday school option for women only, or men only.

    Funny enough, we have a ‘mens’ sunday school class and at the kickoff thing (where they describe all the classes) the person who presented on it was an older woman, who explained that was basically a historical name of the class because it turned into a mixed group.

  212. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Remember Boz T’s observation:
    In all his years as a prosecutor specializing in sexual abuse (especially pedo), he has NEVER seen a church come alongside the victim. ALWAYS “RALLY ROUND THE PERP, BOYS! GAWD SAITH!”

    Stockholm syndrome?

  213. okrapod wrote:

    Trying to see things in perspective here, and of course we all have different perspectives. Some people have brought up the issue of how things like football or car racing have to do with real manliness. I don’t know. Let me expand on that, why have a men’s camp out in the mountains some weekend (our parish does that) and why take the teens to a local gym a couple times a year for some sort of pit ball playing (we do that also) but what does that have to do with manliness or teen-ness? Or why should the women take one of those weekend trips maybe even going there on the train, just for fun? What does that have to do with being a godly woman?

    Exactly. I love professional football, college basketball, camping canoeing, fishing, ‘coon and possum hunting with our dogs (gimme a break, animal lovers…. coons and possums are chicken killing, garden destroying rodents and I have it in for them.)……… I used to love NASCAR, but I’m not too keen on the current generation. If my husband started going on these no-girls-allowed fishing, camping whatever things, there would be trouble!
    On the flip side, I also love to cook, crochet, and sew. I don’t mind working in or managing the kitchen at church, in fact I’m pretty good at it, and I use to enjoy it.
    But when churches and religious organizations start drawing very definite lines in the sand between “womanly” things and “manly” things, count me out – count me out of all of it. I’m walking away.

  214. okrapod wrote:

    And, it leaves the single and the widowed and the divorced in a really bad and awkward position.

    My preference is for mixed groups based on a topic, personally. Sometimes age range as well. That includes all. Although I did accidentally join a womens bible study group last month. We’ll see how it goes. I’m not actively against them, really, I just think the balance can be off. I don’t’ think they should be focused on being ‘womanly’ or ‘manly’. That’s probably a bigger deal.

  215. Gram3 wrote:

    Regardless of the religious or other label, if we are talking about zero-sum power games, we are not going to get anywhere good relationship-wise.

    Yes!! Relationships shouldn’t be about power games.

  216. ishy wrote:

    Extreme complementarians give men a whole lot of passes on horribly bad behavior, but should a woman want to run away from abuse, leave a church, or even just dare to have an opinion, she will be treated like a criminal.

    Someone said the innocent party gets the law and the evil doer gets grace, in these instances, and that’s about the best description I’ve seen.

  217. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    I might add that Fundies get really hung up on devil music.
    Also, at my fundie high school we had a chapel sermon about how holding hands leads to murder! You see, holding hands leads to kissing, which leads to all those other bad things which leads to abortion, which is murder!

    When I was a growing up we were taught rock music had all sorts of Satan and sex references. And if you played the tape backwards you could hear it.

    My my little ponies were thrown in the trash because the symbols on their hips were demonic. Same with my troll and cabbage patch dolls. In our homeschool group people would say after burning the cabbage patch dolls their kids would suddenly be healed of their mystery illness.

    Oh kissing was basically sex to fundies. And as girl YOU were entirely responsible for how far you went before marriage. If things got to touchy it was ALL YOUR FAULT and YOU were responsible for how the guy behaved since they had the strongest sex drives.

    I’ve been to many fundie weddings where the first kiss that had been saved for the altar was bragged about from the pulpit during the ceremony. My husband and I snuck off and enjoying kissing in secret before marriage ;)!! and I told my fundie preacher who married us I didn’t want a mention of the kiss. I had to put up with the submit and obey crap but I atleast had some control of how the ceremony went.

    I’m 29 1/2 years old and I am just now reading Harry Potter for the first time. It. Is. GLORIOUS.

  218. okrapod wrote:

    position on salvation. … What have I left out of this list? It is so good to know that Christianity is so clear on this issue. (Last sentence is sarcasm.)

    If it is important I’d think it would be clear, maybe it is not that important.

  219. Lea wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    And, it leaves the single and the widowed and the divorced in a really bad and awkward position.

    My preference is for mixed groups based on a topic, personally. Sometimes age range as well. That includes all. Although I did accidentally join a womens bible study group last month. We’ll see how it goes. I’m not actively against them, really, I just think the balance can be off. I don’t’ think they should be focused on being ‘womanly’ or ‘manly’. That’s probably a bigger deal.

    I no longer care to join women’s bible studies because it is just pre packaged stuff all pink and soft from Lifeway. And boring. The women sit pretty and watch the dvd and “study” while the men get to go out and help in the community. I told my husband from now on I will be serving on the edge of the church by scouting around and listening to who is in need, sick, needs a meal, etc. I can’t do it any longer. I have been in church since before birth and after 29 years I can’t play the games any longer.

  220. Bill M wrote:

    If it is important I’d think it would be clear, maybe it is not that important.

    That is exactly what I am thinking.

  221. Gram3 wrote:

    I am just as nauseated by some self-described feminists who claim to honor women (as long as they are the right kind of women) as I am by the “complementarians” who claim to honor women (as long as they are the right kind of women.) Same for men who fit corresponding categories.

    Ditto here Gram3. The other pendulum extreme from the fundagelical one is just as Orwellian.

  222. Lea wrote:

    I’m not actively against them, really, I just think the balance can be off. I don’t’ think they should be focused on being ‘womanly’ or ‘manly’. That’s probably a bigger deal.

    I can agree with that. I think this womanly or manly stuff is cultural backlash against what some see as excesses in the secular culture. Surely we will get past this with time.

  223. I fear a cage wrote:

    The women sit pretty and watch the dvd and “study”

    At my former church we had a men’s retreat and a women’s retreat. At the men’s, the pastors taught the sessions.
    At the women’s, they played DVD’s of, you guessed it, John Piper.

  224. @ LT:

    Thanks for saying this… You know in my mind I was considering doing a post about how Jerry Falwell Jr doesn’t have a problem with allegations of rape. I mean consider.

    1. He has been one of the biggest promoters of Donald Trump who I consider to be a sexual offender. His Access Hollywood comments were dismissed by Jerry Falwell Jr.

    2. Then you had the Baylor scandal with the new athletic director who was hip deep in the situation. That situation at Baylor keeps getting darker and darker.

    3. I have also heard rumblings of another situation at Liberty which I don’t know if I am at “liberty” to discuss. (Pun intended)

    The point of all this is that rape appears to be a part of the “Liberty Way.” Why should people be surprised about the speaking schedule of Ignite after the way Falwell has embraced Donald Trump and the Baylor Athletic Director?

    Liberty is a sick school and I would stay far away from it. Yes Boz is there, but you can only run in the same company for so long, and turn the other way when this stuff is happening in your own university. The students and faculty need to revolt and challenge the leadership.

  225. linda wrote:

    Where traditional SBC are “once saved always saved” these folks are “if you are saved and lose your salvation you are now always lost.” As opposed to Wesleyans who think you can be saved, lose salvation, regain it, lose it, regain it……..

    What do you (generic you) mean by salvation?
    I think it’s a fair question and deserves a defining of terms.

  226. In regard to my previous post on different schools of thought re salvation: salvation defined as being assured one will be in heaven.

    FWB believe you can stop believing, or give up your faith, or back slide to the point of no longer being a believer. Apostasy. But they believe, as do all classic Arminians, if you do that you cannot regain salvation. (Ever go to heaven.) Wesleyan Arminians believe you can regain salvation and still go to heaven. Traditional SBC believe once saved always saved, and Calvinists believe if truly saved you will not backslide. Those are also called preservation of the saints vs perseverance of the saints.

    Just clearing up that FWB is about more than just who can be saved.

  227. I fear a cage wrote:

    I told my husband from now on I will be serving on the edge of the church by scouting around and listening to who is in need, sick, needs a meal, etc.

    In Christianese, you’re becoming a Rebellious Jezebel Spirit.
    Has your husband got your back?
    Because he’s going to catch it from Pastor and the other men for having an Uppity wife.

  228. Gram3 wrote:

    Regardless of the religious or other label, if we are talking about zero-sum power games, we are not going to get anywhere good relationship-wise.

    Because in a zero-sum game, the only way to get more for me is to take it away from you. The only way for me to Win is to Make You Lose.

    And in a zero-sum power game, the only question is who gets to Hold the Whip and who gets to Feel the Whip. Let the Game of Thrones begin; Power Struggle Without End, Amen.

  229. Bill M wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Remember Boz T’s observation:
    In all his years as a prosecutor specializing in sexual abuse (especially pedo), he has NEVER seen a church come alongside the victim. ALWAYS “RALLY ROUND THE PERP, BOYS! GAWD SAITH!”

    Stockholm syndrome?

    Don’t think so.
    Strictly speaking, Stockholm Syndrome is when the VICTIM accepts the Abuser’s reality and cleaves to the abuser like Bella to Edward (sparkle sparkle).

    These are third-parties allying with the abuser. Probably more like grooming.

  230. Lea wrote:

    Someone said the innocent party gets the law and the evil doer gets grace, in these instances, and that’s about the best description I’ve seen.

    At which point, why not become an evil doer, i.e. a Winner instead of a Loser?

    (And the kids growing up as eyewitnesses see. And learn. And resolve.)

  231. I fear a cage wrote:

    I no longer care to join women’s bible studies because it is just pre packaged stuff all pink and soft from Lifeway.

    Some years ago, I saw a blog post with some examples of titles and covers of Christianese “pre-packaged stuff all pink and soft”. One look and I could feel my testicles shriveling up, ready to fall off from the estrogen overload. You’ve heard of “chemical castration”, this was sight castration. One look was all it took.

    I’m surprised nobody’s looked into that as a Prostate Cancer/BPH treatment; it would knock out Gleason 6 tumors and shrink that prostate a lot quicker than Finasteride.

  232. elastigirl wrote:

    i take “God is leading you to” with an industrial-size bag of salt.
    Seems to me God is leading men to cater to their insecurity by taking power away from others and giving it to themselves.

    Some years ago, there was a comment on this blog that went something like:

    “God is Leading Me To…” should be spoken with the same forethought and caution as “Please Castrate Me”.

  233. okrapod wrote:

    They of course were gracious and had impeccable manners, and there was much friendliness all around, but inside they were baptists.

    In my case they were Presbyterians, and it was my wedding, and it was only their shyness that prevented them from politely addressing the priest as “Father Debbie.”

  234. @ Friend:

    That is priceless. A few more stories like this and we could have a set of cartoons. Chronicles of Father Debbie.

  235. Bill M wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Remember Boz T’s observation:
    In all his years as a prosecutor specializing in sexual abuse (especially pedo), he has NEVER seen a church come alongside the victim. ALWAYS “RALLY ROUND THE PERP, BOYS! GAWD SAITH!”

    Stockholm syndrome?

    Or them what ‘protects’ are also involved and the ‘perp’ has the goods on them
    (my goodness, the current political scene has made me SO cynical 🙂 )

  236. @ ishy:

    yes, indeedy doodah. that’s why i reserve my very best ironic facial expression in response to the valiant “CULTURE WARRIORS!”, sporting their best William Wallace facial expression.

  237. Dave A A wrote:

    Well actually it’s just 4 days collecting litter unless he reoffends.

    There’s a good chance that he will reoffend, since they dismissed two other violations in exchange for his guilty plea. Naghmeh was right to seek protection.

  238. linda wrote:

    Free Will Baptists are classic Arminians. That is what they mean by free will. About as far as you can get from Calvinist and be in the same state

    Most are hyper conservative, often downright holiness when it comes to teaching and conduct, although they deny entire sanctification.

    Where traditional SBC are “once saved always saved” these folks are “if you are saved and lose your salvation you are now always lost.” As opposed to Wesleyans who think you can be saved, lose salvation, regain it, lose it, regain it……..

    So, any attempts to ‘classify’ or categorize now becomes even more challenging…. instead of a dichotomy of ‘neo-Cal determinists’ and ‘free will fundamentalist Baptists’;
    I would be better off doing a grid that provides even more specific categories …. and still would I get it right??? What ‘grids’ out there better serve to increase understanding???

    maybe better to try to ‘listen’ to what individuals find meaningful in their faith ????

    maybe less important to attempt to understand by classifying and labeling that which cannot be more than a ‘tool’ to place people into boxes that don’t reflect more than the most shallow understanding of what these individuals may hold to in their faith and Christian practice?

    much to think about

  239. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Strictly speaking, Stockholm Syndrome is when the VICTIM accepts the Abuser’s reality and cleaves to the abuser like Bella to Edward (sparkle sparkle).

    These are third-parties allying with the abuser. Probably more like grooming.

    Along with willful blindness, self-interest, and cowardice.

    I read this morning that coach Kathie Klages has been suspended from MSU connected with the gymnastics sex abuse scandal. A girl in the program had tried to talk to her about the fact that Dr. Nassar was sexually assaulting her and Klages response?

    According to the court documents, Klages told the girl that she had known Nassar for years and could not imagine him doing anything questionable. She further explained that the girl must have been “misunderstanding” or “reading into” the treatment Nassar was providing.

    Sound familiar? You would wish things were different in the church but no. SOP.

  240. I fear a cage wrote:

    I told my husband from now on I will be serving on the edge of the church by scouting around and listening to who is in need, sick, needs a meal, etc.

    Oh my dear, you will not be ‘on the edge of the Church’. You will be within it’s beating heart. God Bless!

  241. Lea wrote:

    I would get it if they had Tim Tebow. But they probably couldn’t get him.
    This guy though???

    As a much younger guy, Ben R. was one of those football players for Jesus. Many people saw it as annoyingly shallow. He then spent too much time in bars, doing things that included this possibly criminal act in Georgia.

    After Georgia, he went through a somewhat promising time. He actually lived quietly, not doing a big repentance book tour. His family exerted influence over him. He married a local woman he met at church.

    All of that is good. He needs to keep living quietly and not hold himself out there as a QB for JC. Ugh.

  242. okrapod wrote:

    football (bow) there is car racing (bow) there is hunting (bow)

    OK I know where to get bow-hunting equipment, but where can I get a car bow and a football bow? 😉

  243. Friend wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    football (bow) there is car racing (bow) there is hunting (bow)
    OK I know where to get bow-hunting equipment, but where can I get a car bow and a football bow?

    I think Okra meant:

    “Bow Your Head With Great Respect and —
    GENUFLECT! GENUFLECT! GENUFLECT!”
    — Tom Lehrer, “Vatican Rag”

  244. Friend wrote:

    OK I know where to get bow-hunting equipment, but where can I get a car bow and a football bow?

    Kentucky, Tennessee. Alabama, Georgia, Arkansas ………….. ; ^ )

  245. Friend wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    I was Cal Poly POMONA, not SLO.
    Known for Agriculture, Architecture, and Engineering.
    Did you design unicorn barns?

    No, I was Business Data Processing/Information Systems, with a weekend minor in Dungeons & Dragons.

  246. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    Not really sure if there is a single solution (I know you didn’t suggest a SINGLE solution in your comment above), or a silver bullet, so to speak, for keeping the youth in the faith. What you alluded to above may be a key factor – ongoing spiritual care. Healthy spiritual care. Whether through family or friends or a church. Not getting them so sign up for a program or overly committed to church functions and activities, but having good healthy people invest in them. Getting them to see Jesus as friend and savior, and not someone sitting over there shaking their fist at them for being a kid. Getting them to fall in love with Jesus, not some fundamentalist set of virtues or some church program. Ok, rambling a bit here.

    I really like this.

    The church’s programs for men, women and youth have all become so cliche.

    If youth could belong to a group where the leaders and others in the group care about them, listen to them, provide a place they can be themselves and be heard, valued, feel like an important part, maybe it would attract fewer youths but have more lasting impact. The tendency is to offer lots of entertainment (at least in the churches I’ve been in), rowdy crazy stuff a lot of times, and yet the youth in those programs can end up dealing with the same miseries they are getting in school and elsewhere: cliques, bullying, platitudes for the issues they are dealing with, and even grooming and abuse from leaders or just being used for the leaders’ own ego boost or pet projects.

    They have to have activities to form relationships around but it seems like the cart is pulling the horse. It’s all about this activity or that and the real stuff, the relationships, are mostly not happening.

    When my kids went through that age range we had tried different churches but mostly met with disappointment as far as youth programs went.

  247. Friend wrote:

    OK I know where to get bow-hunting equipment, but where can I get a car bow and a football bow?

    I would have said gennuflikt but I don’t know how to spell jenewfleckt and besides there may be folks who would denounce me for a fundamentalist if I even knew what jennieflict even meant.

    And no, not the head, at least from the waist.

  248. okrapod wrote:

    And no, not the head, at least from the waist.

    The bow that is. If you put a bow on your head it might fall when you bow your head, but if you put a bow at your waist it could get crushed when you bow from the waist. Decisions. Decisions.

  249. okrapod wrote:

    If you put a bow on your head it might fall when you bow your head, but if you put a bow at your waist it could get crushed when you bow from the waist.

    YouTube has some very earnest videos about bowing and genuflecting. And not arriving ten minutes late with a big can of iced tea. 🙂

  250. @ Friend:

    Well, we are supposed to bow in church according to procedure but I have vertigo. Just guess how that turns out. We are supposed to kneel (a slight problem) and then get up (a near impossibility) and we are supposed to be able to navigate amid the swirling mob of after church but not yet to your car. So I carry a cane, which gets kicked back under the pew and hard to reach and which clattered to the floor once during communion.

    But, I do tend to see possibility is most things, so I have been practicing cane fighting moves. I started this for when I might run into some man when taking a g’kid to a public potty and then the idea sort of caught on and I have fantasies of going amok in church or the grocery store or wherever and being the hero of the hour. I don’t know; maybe it is dementia or something.

  251. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    Well actually it’s just 4 days collecting litter unless he reoffends.
    There’s a good chance that he will reoffend, since they dismissed two other violations in exchange for his guilty plea. Naghmeh was right to seek protection.

    Likely I should say “until” rather than “unless”.

  252. @ okrapod:
    I think it’s ‘okay’ to not go through the gymnastics of genuflection and bowing if you have health difficulties. No one minds. The Good Lord knows your heart. I had a knee replacement. I need another one for the other leg, of course, so I sit rather than use the kneelers these days …. genuflecting? oh goodness … I turn towards the altar and bow my head and then I go and sit down. No one minds. A lot of the older folks do the same thing. We do what we can, and then we are peaceful. 🙂

  253. okrapod wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    And no, not the head, at least from the waist.
    The bow that is. If you put a bow on your head it might fall when you bow your head, but if you put a bow at your waist it could get crushed when you bow from the waist. Decisions. Decisions.

    Not to be confused with the opposite of stern, which is the opposite of lax. Nor with the first half of -wow. Nor with bough which causeth the cradle to fall when it breaks Nor with a beau, who, like a suitor, s kinda passé. Nor with little Bo who is a bad pastor– soon to write a poor me article on expastors.com.

  254. I fear a cage wrote:

    I’m 29 1/2 years old and I am just now reading Harry Potter for the first time. It. Is. GLORIOUS.

    Freedom from a tribal and fear based religion is indeed glorious. I know where you’re coming from. I survived the Calvary Chapel cult for nearly two decades.

  255. I fear a cage wrote:

    In our homeschool group people would say after burning the cabbage patch dolls their kids would suddenly be healed of their mystery illness.

    Goodness, I grew up hearing about the smurfs (which in fairness, had a warlockish person and a cat named gargamel) and all sorts of other things, but I don’t recall anybody mad at cabbage patch kids! They’re just dolls.

  256. Lea wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:
    In our homeschool group people would say after burning the cabbage patch dolls their kids would suddenly be healed of their mystery illness.

    Goodness, I grew up hearing about the smurfs (which in fairness, had a warlockish person and a cat named gargamel) and all sorts of other things, but I don’t recall anybody mad at cabbage patch kids! They’re just dolls.

    DEMON-Possessed(TM) dolls. Don’t remember the details, but at the time there was this Christian Urban Legend passing from pulpit to pulpit about Demons infesting the dolls. Something about treating the dolls as if they were living children (part of the Cabbage Patch shtick) would open them up to possession. Said to have made it onto Pat Robertson’s 700 Club.

    This would have been the early- to mid-Eighties during the Satanic Panic, after D&D and before or around the time of Backwards Masking and Satanic Ritual Abuse. This would also be near the peak of the Satanic Panic in general (thank you Mike Warnke, Johanna Michaelson, Constance Cumby…).

  257. elastigirl wrote:

    @ ishy:
    yes, indeedy doodah. that’s why i reserve my very best ironic facial expression in response to the valiant “CULTURE WARRIORS!”, sporting their best William Wallace facial expression.

    i.e. the William Wallace IIs who never got a clue that Braveheart was HEAVILY fictionalized.

  258. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Don’t remember the details, but at the time there was this Christian Urban Legend passing from pulpit to pulpit about Demons infesting the dolls.

    Gothard propagated this, too. In one of his Basic Care newsletters dispensing medical advice, he diagnoses the reason for a woman’s difficult labor as having a Cabbage Patch doll in the house. Oh, and troll dolls are also problematic.
    http://images.gawker.com/1289746095410496551/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg

  259. Lea wrote:

    Who do you bow to?

    In the episcopal way of doing things everything varies from parish to parish and from one kind to the other of service (high. low, more formal and older style English vs modern English) and varies with just however people actually do. We have some people who do a lot of gestures, bowing and making the sign of the cross, and we have some people who basically don’t do anything. So for information you can google it and find out what I mean by variation. If you ever go to an episcopal service you can do nothing or you can watch other people and see what they do. The good part of it is that nobody cares what you do or don’t do. So I do what I want to do, according to what I personally think is appropriate for me.

    I bow to Jesus, and only Jesus, based on the scripture passage that eventually every knee shall bow. I bow mostly with a bowed head, but really bowing from the waist would be better. How that translates, and why I say Jesus, is that I bow to the reserved sacrament not because I (or episcopalians in general) believe what the catholics believe about the consecrated sacrament but rather because Jesus said this is my body, this is my blood, and if he really only meant ‘this represents my body/blood’ even so it deserves a bow in recognition of the mandate that the eucharist in the words of scripture shows forth the Lord’s death until He comes. The priest will bow with a slight nod every time the name of Jesus is mentioned during the liturgy of the sacrament only but the people do not do this.

  260. @ Christiane:
    Thanks for asking …. yes, excellent result on rt. knee from best doctor in the whole area …. I know I was fortunate to get that help and I am thankful to the Good Lord

  261. @ Christiane:
    okrapod wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    I hate that about your knees. Did you get good results with the surgery on the one?

    Thanks for asking …. yes, excellent result on rt. knee from best doctor in the whole area …. I know I was fortunate to get that help and I am thankful to the Good Lord

  262. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Gothard propagated this, too. In one of his Basic Care newsletters dispensing medical advice, he diagnoses the reason for a woman’s difficult labor as having a Cabbage Patch doll in the house. Oh, and troll dolls are also problematic.
    http://images.gawker.com/1289746095410496551/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg

    Sounds like to Got Hard, Cabbage Patch/Troll/MLP dolls are what Louisianans call “gris-gris”.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gris-gris_(talisman)

  263. Lea wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Apparently the demon doll rumors never reached arkansas. Thank goodness!

    But a couple years ago someone reported the demon My Little Pony rumor preached from the pulpit somewhere in the Carolinas.

  264. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:

    I told my husband from now on I will be serving on the edge of the church by scouting around and listening to who is in need, sick, needs a meal, etc.

    In Christianese, you’re becoming a Rebellious Jezebel Spirit.
    Has your husband got your back?
    Because he’s going to catch it from Pastor and the other men for having an Uppity wife.

    He does indeed. He’s a laid back soul but I pity the first person that tries to cross him about it.

  265. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Don’t remember the details, but at the time there was this Christian Urban Legend passing from pulpit to pulpit about Demons infesting the dolls.

    Gothard propagated this, too. In one of his Basic Care newsletters dispensing medical advice, he diagnoses the reason for a woman’s difficult labor as having a Cabbage Patch doll in the house. Oh, and troll dolls are also problematic.
    http://images.gawker.com/1289746095410496551/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg

    It’s true! Half the people in my homeschool group when I was a kid burned them. I had my cabbage patch & troll dolls and my my little ponies all when away for the same reasons

  266. I fear a cage wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I fear a cage wrote:
    I told my husband from now on I will be serving on the edge of the church by scouting around and listening to who is in need, sick, needs a meal, etc.

    In Christianese, you’re becoming a Rebellious Jezebel Spirit.

    Has your husband got your back?
    Because he’s going to catch it from Pastor and the other men for having an Uppity wife.

    He does indeed. He’s a laid back soul but I pity the first person that tries to cross him about it.

    OK. He’s got your back on this one. Just (judging from prior TWW postings on the subject) he may get denounced as a p*ssyfied man-fail for not keeping you in line (and winsomely sweet). (These MoGs are SO predictable…)

    If that goes down, giv us an after-action report. The way you describe your hubby, it could get spectacular. You always gotta watch out for the laid-back quiet ones…

  267. I fear a cage wrote:

    It’s true! Half the people in my homeschool group when I was a kid burned them. I had my cabbage patch & troll dolls and my my little ponies all when away for the same reasons

    I came from the patriarchal homeschooling subgroup, as well. The “church” I was part of had its own brand of crazy, but I’ve since learned their ideas weren’t exactly original. They were bottom feeding off the cesspool of cray that Gothard, Phillips, and others brought to the table.

  268. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But a couple years ago someone reported the demon My Little Pony rumor preached from the pulpit somewhere in the Carolinas.

    Remember the Satanic Proctor and Gamble???

  269. Dave A A wrote:

    Nor with little Bo who is a bad pastor

    If only Bo would stop peeping, or letting out a peep.

    I’ll be here all week. Try the veal, and remember to tip your waitress.

  270. okrapod wrote:

    even so it deserves a bow in recognition of the mandate that the eucharist in the words of scripture shows forth the Lord’s death until He comes.

    that’s beautiful

    in thinking about the Eucharist, I remember the Hebrew blessing
    ” “Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who brings forth bread from the earth.”
    and I recall that Our Lord spoke of Himself as ‘the bread of life’ and how it was that after three days in the tomb, He was brought forth from the earth in Resurrection

    however Eucharist has real meaning for Christian people, I think it should be celebrated with a corresponding respect to honor Our Lord Himself

  271. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Dan from Georgia wrote:
    Late to the party here, but this advertisement and the guest speakers is only consistent with the belief that men can only learn and grow spiritually if it’s encased in the manly terms of sports sports sports, regardless of the witness of the guests personal lives.
    I was the Omega Male of my high school, where Football was the State Religion and “FAG!” was someone not completely into Football.
    Where does this leave guys like me?
    Beaten up in the gym showers while the PE coach looks on?
    Threatened with being dragged behind the backstop and raped?
    HUG…
    Really sorry and it pains me that people treated you that way. I too was called “Fag” once, along with “wuss” and “pussy” by a couple of toughs as a church retreat when I was a teen. That wasn’t the last time I was emotionally abused at a church function.
    The whole culture of getting guys to church through Sports Sports Sports really makes me sick. I don’t have anything against some sports (a few sports I do have a beef about), but c’mon, we are not dumb simpletons. And to bring in people of questionable reputation is beyond me.

    The ” tough” guy image is part of my becoming a “Done.” I no longer care about American football. Or baseball. I no longer hunt. I no longer fish. I don’t listen to country music. I can’t stand ” Southern Gospel.” I listen to ” Classical” music. Instead of listening to the Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity station as mentioned often by men in Sunday School, I listen to NPR ( Yes, there are NPR stations in Texas.) . Instead of going camping or going to Destin, FL ( the Redneck Riviera ) on vacation, we traveled to New England, the Canadian Martimes, Great Britain. ( We don’t have boats, lake houses, 3 ATVs, or $80,000 pick-up trucks, we travel) Speak or vehicles, we don’t drive pick-up trucks, we have a Subaru Outback, a rarity for Texas. Our male child doesn’t work at a refinery, he’s a professor in ( God-forbid) China.
    Then the theological differences. I believe the earth is older than 6,000 years old. I am okay with my wife making
    more money than me. I questioned if Jonah or Job were actual people. I think politics needs to be out of church. And the biggie, I am okay with gay marriage.
    I am not looked at as a ” real man.” I am in their eyes, not a Christian because I am ” different.”

  272. @ K.D.:
    I relate to lots of this. I’m a woman in Alabama instead of a man in Texas, but the politics and cultural “norms” are obstacles for me too. And believe me, I’m different. I have left the SBC. I have been visiting an Episcopal church recently. I love the liturgical worship but may never get all of the standing / sitting / kneeling / genuflecting right.

  273. @ K.D.:

    “I am not looked at as a ” real man.” I am in their eyes, not a Christian because I am ” different.””
    +++++++++++++++++

    Cardboard souls and minds, just like the cardboard stereotype they aspire to — it’s a compliment to you.

  274. K.D. wrote:

    I believe the earth is older than 6,000 years old.

    Me too.

    My grandmother, a Presbyterian, died at 102 years old and she had a science degree from a top university in California that she earned in the 1920’s. Not even she believed this Young Earth nonsense and Presbys didn’t.

  275. K.D. wrote:

    I am not looked at as a ” real man.” I am in their eyes, not a Christian because I am ” different.”

    You are a good soul.

  276. K.D., i am different in some ways too. I am a white, middle-aged, male, and therefore I am in a despised demographic according to the zeitgeist du jour. It is assumed that because I am a WASP, that I voted for Trump (which I didn’t). Although I like football and baseball, I would rather visit an art museum that go to a live sporting event. I love to paint and play guitar, and I listen to Trance and Heavy Metal. As I mentioned before, I have no desire to be in a men’s church group because 1) I have met more than a few jerks masquerading as evangelical guys, 2) I don’t want to sit around and talk sports, business, or politics, and 3) most church men’s groups are only focused on getting men to be good little boys. I have no desire to be a leader, and the only fellowship group that I have any interest in joining would be an artists fellowship. I can’t hunt, throw a football or baseball very well, and don’t care for college sports (which if it was publicly known here in GA, could get me killed).

    Welcome!

  277. K.D. wrote:

    or going to Destin, FL ( the Redneck Riviera ) on vacation

    The beach is legit gorgeous, though. Better than any east coast beaches I’ve been to.

  278. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Beaten up in the gym showers while the PE coach looks on?

    Looking back, I think I might have conflated two or three separate incidents into that line. (Things can blur together over 40+ years.)

    I was badly bullied in the gym showers, DEFINITELY.
    I was ambushed and beaten up (almost dislocated my jaw) in a school boy’s room and the administration was indifferent to what happened, DEFINITELY.
    The PE coach WAS indifferent to the plight of all who were not jocks or on the fast-track for the Varsity team, DEFINITELY.
    (After I graduated, my brother — the sweet smiling manipulator — made it onto a varsity team (not football) and rubbed it in my face that the same coach told the team that since they were ATHLETES, they would automatically pass their classes.)

  279. K.D. wrote:

    Instead of listening to the Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity station as mentioned often by men in Sunday School, I listen to NPR ( Yes, there are NPR stations in Texas.) .

    Rush Limbaugh & Sean Hannity…
    All you need to do is add Glenn Beck and you have a new Holy Trinity right there.

  280. Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher

  281. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Beaten up in the gym showers while the PE coach looks on?
    Looking back, I think I might have conflated two or three separate incidents into that line. (Things can blur together over 40+ years.)
    I was badly bullied in the gym showers, DEFINITELY.
    I was ambushed and beaten up (almost dislocated my jaw) in a school boy’s room and the administration was indifferent to what happened, DEFINITELY.
    The PE coach WAS indifferent to the plight of all who were not jocks or on the fast-track for the Varsity team, DEFINITELY.
    (After I graduated, my brother — the sweet smiling manipulator — made it onto a varsity team (not football) and rubbed it in my face that the same coach told the team that since they were ATHLETES, they would automatically pass their classes.)

    In my early career ( education) it would not shock me if the ” coach” looked on and did nothing….” Gotta make a MAN outta that boy.”
    I was almost fired for complaining about the Vocational Ag teachers letting the older students haze the Freshman in the agriculture shop, and some of the hazing was downright physical abuse….but then again, this was 1970s Texas.

  282. Lydia wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    Trying to get Baptists in lockstep is like herding cats. That is why Mohler/Ezell were more interested in planting churches that did not have the name Baptist in them– even though they were paid for by the SBC. The church takeovers were not as profitable as they kept splitting. Now they are trying desperately to change the subject… Again.

    I think it is really deceptive that the NAMB counsel their church planters to name their church something bland, community oriented and completely non-denominational sounding. The church is still founded and supported as an SBC church. The pastors are SBC seminary trained. They run the churches on the DL using SBC teachings and traditions. So why conceal it? And more importantly, if you have to deceive your own flock about your polity and true origins, should you be in the church business at all?

    Imagine if Mormons started doing this; forming church plants with names like Community Fellowship of Akron. They could omit all LDS references and practices in the early years, like dropping the Jesus and Lucifer “born” as spirit brothers, conceived with God’s holy DNA, the eternal smile magic underwear and so forth. They could just do communion and read some scripture out of the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. They could really drive the numbers that way, especially with all of the other incredibly well organized social programs – they would just need to leave out the Mormon bit.

    Then after a few years, once families were fully invested, they could start sneaking in a little LDS doctrine at a time, like boiling the frog slowly. I think people would be pretty upset if they found out that they had been attending a secret Mormon Church plant all along. That’s essentially what Gateway Church has done. They were founded by Church of Foursquare Apostles, but portrayed themselves as non-Denom with some light Charismatic touches. Now they are full-blown holy rollers. Why hide it, if it’s what you believe in?

    I think all church plants that do stuff like this should be called out. If you’re ashamed of who you are and what you stand for, you shouldn’t be doing it.

  283. LT wrote:

    Why hide it, if it’s what you believe in?

    What they believe ultimately isn’t theological. It’s money and power. More people = more money and power.

    Gateway is certainly guilty of that, and I believe that’s the motive of the leaders of the Calvinistas. Even though they are not in a strict hierarchy, all those minions buy their books and pay for their seminars.

  284. Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    @ LT:

    Thanks for saying this… You know in my mind I was considering doing a post about how Jerry Falwell Jr doesn’t have a problem with allegations of rape. I mean consider.

    1. He has been one of the biggest promoters of Donald Trump who I consider to be a sexual offender. His Access Hollywood comments were dismissed by Jerry Falwell Jr.

    2. Then you had the Baylor scandal with the new athletic director who was hip deep in the situation. That situation at Baylor keeps getting darker and darker.

    Hi Eagle,

    With all the writing you do on this industry, you might be interested in reading a book by the famous crime writer Kathryn Casey called Deadly Little Secrets. It’s about a Baylor student, Matt Baker, who went on to Baylor’s Truitt Seminary. As a grad student he worked in the athletic department where he violently sexually assaulted another young female student who was also working as a trainer for the Baylor Football Team.

    The student reported the assault and, as I recall, the Baylor Campus Police and the Waco PD covered it up. Basically Matt got finger wagging for something that was clearly a felony. Then Baylor helped this same evil man receive ordination and helped him get a job on staff with the local church affiliated with Baylor’s George W Truett Seminary.

    Pastor Matt went on to commit more assaults before murdering his wife in a particularly hideous and humiliating way. It is also believed that he killed his baby daughter prior to this, to ensure local community sympathy and support as well as an alibi of sorts for his wife’s murder. Waco PD did what can only be described as a total grease job investigating both deaths and ruled out homicide on both them despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. Many speculate that was done to cover-up for the shoddy work they did on the original sexual assault complaint and subsequent ones.

    I’m not sure many people know about or think about that case with all that is going on with their current scandal, but it paints an even darker picture of Baylor. Things should have changed radically for the better after this murder case, but they didn’t.

    The first reported assault victim’s life was completely shattered and the trail of tears probably would have extended beyond the two murders if it weren’t for locals starting a grass roots campaign seeking “Justice for Kari” (the wife’s name).

    Perhaps you should consider posting about this story to refresh people’s memories of what happened? There was little mention of his connection to Baylor in the local press. The media also largely ignored the violent sexual assault that took place in the Baylor football locker room. Had this crime been handled properly as the felony it was in the first place, that young, devout, cheerful school teacher and her child would still be alive.

    This might be time for a little reminder Eagle.

  285. Gram3 wrote:

    . Regardless of the religious or other label, if we are talking about zero-sum power games, we are not going to get anywhere good relationship-wise.

    Bingo.

  286. @ LT:
    Actually, Mormon promotional materials i have seen over the past 10 years or so looks almost identical to typical mega church stuff.

  287. LT wrote:

    That’s essentially what Gateway Church has done. They were founded by Church of Foursquare Apostles

    No kidding? You should have heard the odd responses I got from gateway people when I asked them what kind of church it was.

  288. Pingback: 2017 Ignite Christian Conference Receives Criticism for Featuring Ben Roethlisberger, Who Has Been Accused of Rape, and Joe White, Who Is Being Sued for Child Sex Abuse Cover Up | BCNN1 – Black Christian News Network UNITED STATES

  289. LT wrote:

    They were founded by Church of Foursquare Apostles, but portrayed themselves as non-Denom with some light Charismatic touches.

    Is that the same as the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel? Like, Jack Hayford? An evangelical/pentecostal group descended from Aimie Semple MePherson?

  290. Lydia wrote:

    @ LT:
    Actually, Mormon promotional materials i have seen over the past 10 years or so looks almost identical to typical mega church stuff.

    https://baptistnews.com/article/mormons-southern-baptist-zombies/#.WKcmn4WcFaQ

    “Mormons out-Southern Baptist the Southern Baptists by almost any measure. Their children all serve as missionaries and their numbers are growing. Mormons generally have a reputation of being socially conservative, nice people with good family values. What’s more, many Mormon converts were previously Southern Baptist.

    “Isn’t this simply a version of the basic plot of any zombie movie?”

  291. LT wrote:

    Imagine if Mormons started doing this; forming church plants with names like Community Fellowship of Akron. They could omit all LDS references and practices in the early years…

    Depends.
    I’m suspicious of anything with “Fellowship” in its name.

    Plus, there’s the example of a local Baptist church that has changed its name two-three times in the past couple years; TRENDY(TM) name each time, none of which even hint that it’s a church. (The one I remember was “Portal”, all in maroon and light grey business card graphics.) I know this because I keep getting their literature shoved under my door, none of it in any way suggesting that it’s a church.

  292. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    K.D., i am different in some ways too. I am a white, middle-aged, male, and therefore I am in a despised demographic according to the zeitgeist du jour.

    And our Betters in the Chattering Classes wonder why so many white middle-aged males went Trumpeter?

  293. caroline wrote:

    I love the liturgical worship but may never get all of the standing / sitting / kneeling / genuflecting right.

    It takes a while to work into the rhythm.
    Especially if you came out of a non-liturgical church.
    And even then, if you look around the congregation there’s probably someone else standing/sitting/kneeling out-of-sync with the others.

  294. Friend wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    Nor with little Bo who is a bad pastor

    If only Bo would stop peeping, or letting out a peep.

    Or join Peep behind Hale-Bopp…

  295. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And our Betters in the Chattering Classes wonder why so many white middle-aged males went Trumpeter?

    Makes me wonder too if reality is starting to set in with those who went with
    Il Duce

  296. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    am different in some ways too. I am a white, middle-aged, male, and therefore I am in a despised demographic according to the zeitgeist du jour

    Whatever the issue, it’s all your fault. You were born privileged and should feel guilty. Nay, you ARE guilty for existing unless you repudiate yourself. It’s a lot like Calvinism. :o)

  297. Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And our Betters in the Chattering Classes wonder why so many white middle-aged males went Trumpeter?

    Makes me wonder too if reality is starting to set in with those who went with
    Il Duce

    You mean the last guy? And you can keep your doctor. And big brother IRS is tracking your healthcare purchase, too.

  298. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I could have sworn their communication/marketing people were the same as a lot of mega churches. It’s uncanny.

    I do give the Mormons credit –like the Jews they stick together and help their own.

  299. @ okrapod:
    You mean for this year’s return. I just had to prove it for last year or be fined for not buying. I can’t believe that happened in America.

  300. Lydia wrote:

    I can’t believe that happened in America.

    After reading Lifton’s book on what happened to the German medical profession I can believe anything.

  301. Lydia wrote:

    Dan from Georgia wrote:
    am different in some ways too. I am a white, middle-aged, male, and therefore I am in a despised demographic according to the zeitgeist du jour
    Whatever the issue, it’s all your fault. You were born privileged and should feel guilty. Nay, you ARE guilty for existing unless you repudiate yourself. It’s a lot like Calvinism. :o)

    Darn straight it’s my fault. Lol!!

  302. @ Lydia:

    Dan from Georgia wrote: “am different in some ways too. I am a white, middle-aged, male, and therefore I am in a despised demographic according to the zeitgeist du jour”

    Lydia: “Whatever the issue, it’s all your fault. You were born privileged and should feel guilty. Nay, you ARE guilty for existing unless you repudiate yourself. It’s a lot like Calvinism. :o)”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    is it possible that we (in the majority) take our privileges for granted and don’t realize it? (harkening to the ‘let them eat cake’ idea?) and it shows? but we are blind to it.

  303. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I’m suspicious of anything with “Fellowship” in its name.

    Plus the double whammy of “Grace”, which is really NeoCalvinist authoritarianism like at my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley.

  304. Muff Potter wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    And our Betters in the Chattering Classes wonder why so many white middle-aged males went Trumpeter?
    Makes me wonder too if reality is starting to set in with those who went with
    Il Duce

    Here’s the latest weirdness that showed up in my newsfeed at work:

    GROUP THINKS ISLAM WILL DESTROY US, SAYS IT HAS A ‘DIRECT LINE’ TO PRESIDENT:
    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/this-group-believes-islam-threatens-america-%E2%80%98it%E2%80%99s-a-spiritual-battle-of-good-and-evil%E2%80%99/ar-AAn2UII?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

    After the past few months, I literally cannot tell if this is just another set of tinfoil hats with delusions of grandeur or whether their claims and brags are for real. Especially since they use Christianese Spiritual Warfare vocabulary. I literally cannot tell these days.

  305. Velour wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    I’m suspicious of anything with “Fellowship” in its name.
    Plus the double whammy of “Grace”, which is really NeoCalvinist authoritarianism like at my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley.

    Like the “People’s Republic of Tyranny” trope at TV Tropes:

    The more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.

  306. okrapod wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    I can’t believe that happened in America.

    After reading Lifton’s book on what happened to the German medical profession I can believe anything.

    By “German medical profession” do you mean the Reich League of Doctors?

  307. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    Dan from Georgia wrote: “am different in some ways too. I am a white, middle-aged, male, and therefore I am in a despised demographic according to the zeitgeist du jour”
    Lydia: “Whatever the issue, it’s all your fault. You were born privileged and should feel guilty. Nay, you ARE guilty for existing unless you repudiate yourself. It’s a lot like Calvinism. :o)”
    ++++++++++++++++++++
    is it possible that we (in the majority) take our privileges for granted and don’t realize it? (harkening to the ‘let them eat cake’ idea?) and it shows? but we are blind to it.

    elastigirl…I agree with you about having privilege and not really being aware of it! I am privileged and wasn’t aware of it for a long time.

  308. @ Dan from Georgia:

    i think our awareness has its limits. (referring to you, me, & anyone describing themselves as majority – caucasion, hetero, whatever)

    and i think we’re a bit clueless to that, too.

    we feel good about our awareness (it is a good thing). i think our self-congratulations (so to speak, exaggerating a bit) on how ‘aware’ we are, and the accompanying lack of awareness of these limits, are also all too apparent to others.

    all in all, these are sensitive issues, and humility is the order of the day.

  309. @ elastigirl:

    Very vague. How can people apply vague? Is it just about using PC words in public? It seems to be. What about seeing individuals instead of groups? How does any one person represent an entire group without losing individual identity? I have never understood that.

  310. Lydia wrote:

    @ Dan from Georgia:
    You have been elected president? I thought that was a privilege. I am so out of the loop with PC!

    Ha! You didn’t get the memo?

  311. .Lydia wrote:

    Makes me wonder too if reality is starting to set in with those who went with
    Il Duce

    You mean the last guy?

    Lea wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    why so many white middle-aged males went Trumpeter?

    They went swan?

    Lea, Lydia, “playing dumb” to put the enemy on the defensive in this way is probably on a list of abuser’s tricks & tactics somewhere.

  312. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Dan from Georgia:
    You have been elected president? I thought that was a privilege. I am so out of the loop with PC!

    Ha! You didn’t get the memo?

    Dan could definitely run a Presidential press conference better than the one yesterday.

  313. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    elastigirl…I agree with you about having privilege and not really being aware of it! I am privileged and wasn’t aware of it for a long time.

    Problem is, accusations of “privilege” are becoming a thoughtstopper and weapon to count coup on the Other.

    “If I can’t find a Friendship Problem, I’LL MAKE ONE!”
    — Twilight Sparkle, “Lesson Zero”

  314. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Dan from Georgia wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    @ Dan from Georgia:
    You have been elected president? I thought that was a privilege. I am so out of the loop with PC!
    Ha! You didn’t get the memo?
    Dan could definitely run a Presidential press conference better than the one yesterday.

    You’re setting the bar there REALLY high! Or is it low?….

  315. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Disagreeing is always abusive. :o) I always thought political stuff was not welcome here and I never start it I just respond to those who dare bring it up.

    As I recall,you mapped my mentioning the ability to self govern to the philosophy of Ayn Rand. (Gee, I was thinking Constitution) then you went several rounds on Rand… you don’t call that abusive or tactics?

    You play the game well.

  316. @ Lydia:

    i have no idea what’s PC and what’s not these days — no time to monitor that. i see plenty of individuals — my variety of friends who come from very different circumstances than I do. i’m only going on about my own life experience here, with the assumption that there’s nothing new under the sun and logically there’s relevance for others, too. if it’s vague, surely the concept of humility is not. i’m not advocating anything beyond that.

  317. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    By “German medical profession” do you mean the Reich League of Doctors?

    The book’s title might get my comment sidetracked for a time. Lifton chronicles the shift in thinking among the medical profession which allowed some people to practice/cooperate with atrocities while others remained silent with various degrees of agreement. What I found life changing about it was how their thinking was manipulated by use of what they at least at first would have considered their higher values. Prevention of suffering in various forms, for one thing. It was gradual, subtle and perhaps even kind in appearance at first, but before they realized they had basically endorsed mass extermination.

    I have never seen the ebb and flow of political ideas in the same light since reading that book.

  318. Lydia wrote:

    I do give the Mormons credit –like the Jews they stick together and help their own.

    I do too. They have a better handle on reality as far as disaster preparedness goes than any evangelical ixtian outfit around.

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  320. @ mot:
    Have you been to one of these conferences? Okay then. I don’t agree with some of the guys they’ve had in line ups and it has nothing to do with “manly-man” complex. They have had a guy whose ministry was done though painting. Please don’t assume and slander if you are not presenting all of the facts.

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