“Never hide things from hardcore thinkers. They get more aggravated, more provoked by confusion than the most painful truths.” ― Criss Jami link
An overview of the ARC church system
Once again, TWW visits the ARC (Association of Related Churches.) We have written a number of posts on this group. If you have not heard of them, it is time you do. This is the most ambitious church planting group in the world today, beating out the SBC and Acts 29 by a long shot. Here are some background posts for new readers.
- Building the ARC – An Overview of this Church Planting Network (History)
- The ARC’s Church of the Highlands Prayer Force Leader’s Guide and Analysis (The removed manual from the next post-demonology)
- Where Have All the Flowers Gone? Demons, Tongues, and Healings at Chris Hodges’ Church of the Highlands (ARC) (Peculiar beliefs)
- A Closer Look at Pastors in the ARC (Leadership structure)
- Pastorcentric: Looking at the ARC and Robert Morris Thru Chris Hodge’s Church of the Highlands (Leadership/beliefs)
- ARC’s Robert Morris: Paul Preached “Under the Influence” (Strange beliefs on the frequent need for demon exorcism)
- Personal Experiences with ARC’s LifeWay Church of Milwaukee, Wisconsin (Concerning questionable basic beliefs)
- Dino Rizzo, Stovall Weems, and Steven Furtick: Banking on the ARC? ( Quickie restoration for Rizzo who housed his mistress in an apartment while a pastor.)
That should get you started or at least get you to understand that any story about the ARC at TWW will most likely be filled with oddities and concerns. This post is no different.
You, too, can learn to be an ARC church planter in one weekend.
One of our alert readers picked up on this interesting fact. It is important to understand their methods because the subject of today's discussion involves an ARC church plant.
GIVE US 2 DAYS – AND WE WILL SHOW YOU HOW TO START A LIFE-GIVING CHURCH
ARC Launch Training Events center around two days of teaching, equipping and covers the nuts and bolts of church planting. In this training, you will hear from successful church planters, have Q&A discussion panels, and also build relationships with others that share your passion to start a church.
ARC Launch Training is also available to those starting a new campus for an existing church, as well as for existing churches that simply want to learn the ARC model. So whether you’re planting a church, starting a new campus, or looking to strengthen your existing church, ARC Launch Training is available to you. Below you will find a list of upcoming ARC Launch Training events for you to choose from. The cost is $599 per couple.
Quick overview of ARC theology
These thoughts are what I have gleaned from reading a number of their websites. I will link to one of them today. They are most definitely not Calvinists. They are heavy on the gifts of the Spirit, believing in a second spirit baptism. They also are really into demons- exorcizing them regularly and multiple times from people as well as doing *prayer walks* to get rid of them in communities. After TWW featured their *Prayer Force manual*, it was removed from public view but I have reposted it above. Always download copies and take screen shots of weird stuff.
On a positive note: The Dream Centers serve the communities.
A Dream of Changing Lives
Dream Center is a volunteer-driven organization that finds and fills the needs of over 40,000 individuals and families through approximately 70,000 encounters each month, with many accessing multiple services.
We do this through mobile hunger relief and medical programs, residential rehabilitation programs adults, a shelter for victims of human trafficking, transitional housing for homeless families, foster care intervention programs, job skills training, life skills, counseling, basic education, Bible studies and more. We work to meet people where they are at, to bring them hope and a way off the streets.
We’re also equipping others to serve. The Dream Center’s record of success has attracted urban missionaries and Christian leaders from across the U.S. and the world. As they volunteer with us, they gain insight and skills that they can take back to their own communities.
In this way, more than 100 independent Dream Centers have been launched nationally, as well as internationally. Many more churches and ministries have become more effective as we teach those who give their time and talent to do what we do. Many who once needed our services also go on to help others.
What are the beliefs of Building Church, Madison (Huntsville) AL-the subject of today's post?
Here is a link to the beliefs page. As you can see, they have a charismatic bent along with an apparent belief in some form of the health and wealth gospel. Here are a couple of examples from that page. Also here is a screen shot to prove they are part of the ARC system.
JESUS CHRIST INDWELLS ALL BELIEVERS
Christians are people who have invited the Lord Jesus Christ to come and live inside them by His Holy Spirit. They relinquish the authority of their lives over to Him, thus making Jesus both the Lord and the Savior of their lives. They put their trust in what Jesus accomplished for them when He died, was buried, and rose again from the dead (John 1:12; John 14:17, 23; John 15:4; Romans 8:11; Revelations 3:20).BEING FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT
Given at Pentecost, it is the promise of the Father, sent by Jesus after His Ascension, to empower the Church to preach the Gospel throughout the whole earth (Joel 2:28-29; Matthew 3:11; Mark 16:17; Acts 1:5, 2:1-4, 17, 38-39, 8:14-17, 10:38, 44-47, 11:15-17, 19:1-6).GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
The Holy Spirit is manifested through a variety of spiritual gifts to build and sanctify the church, demonstrate the validity of the resurrection, and confirm the power of the Gospel. The Bible's list of these gifts is not necessarily exhaustive, and the gifts may occur in various combinations. All believers are commanded to earnestly desire the manifestation of the gifts in their lives. These gifts always operate in harmony with the Scriptures and should never be used in violation of biblical parameters (Hebrews 2:4; Romans 1:11,12 :4-8; Ephesians 4:16; II Timothy 1:5-16, 4:14; I Corinthians 12:1-31, 14:1-40; I Peter 4:10).HEALING OF THE SICK
Healing of the sick is illustrated in the life and ministry of Jesus, and included in the commission of Jesus to His disciples. It is given as a sign, which is to follow believers. It is also a part of Jesus' work on the Cross and one of the gifts of the Spirit (Psalm 103:2-3; Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 8:16-17; Mark 16:17-18; Acts 8:6-7; James 5:14-16; I Corinthians 12:9, 28; Romans 11:29)GOD'S WILL FOR PROVISION
It is the Father's will for believers to become whole, healthy and successful in all areas of life. But because of the fall, many may not receive the full benefits of God's will while on Earth. That fact, though, should never prevent all believers from seeking the full benefits of Christ's provision in order to better serve others.1. Spiritual (John 3:3-11; II Corinthians 5:17-21; Romans 10:9-10).
2. Mental and Emotional (II Timothy 1:7, 2:11; Philippians 4:7-8; Romans 12:2; Isaiah 26:3).
3. Physical (Isaiah 53:4,5; Matthew 8:17; I Peter 2:24).
4. Financial (Joshua 1:8; Malachi 3:10-11; Luke 6:38; II Corinthians 9:6-10; Deuteronomy 28:1-14; Psalm 34:10, 84:11; Philippians 4:19).
What in the world happened to David Pursifull, senior pastor of Building Church.
A reader who once attended this church alerted us to the following statement on the church's website. Read it carefully. See if you figure out what happened. I have a few ideas but no firm answers at this point. This has to be one of the more bizarre church resignation statements I have read. I've highlighted a few things that jumped out at me.
For those of you who haven't gotten caught up on ARC lingo, the Overseers is a group of ARC leaders who flew in for the occasion and determined *what would happen.* Restoration is their byline. They restored Dino Rizzo very quickly which you can read about that in the above links.
Overseer Statement Building Church – January 1, 2017
“It is with great difficulty we announce a leadership transition for Building Church. The founding pastor, David Pursifull, has offered his resignation to the Board of Overseers.
David has had a 9 year tenure at Building Church. He and his wife Stephanie have brought the church from a small start-up to a portable location to a permanent location. We thank them for their vision, their hard work, and their devotion in raising up a powerful church plant in Huntsville.
The opening of the new building in May of 2016 evidently had a very far-reaching effect on Pastor David. Though he was excited, he began to collapse inwardly, emotionally and spiritually. This often happens when a person has become physically exhausted and spiritually spent.
The subsequent fallout of this collapse exposed some deep issues in Pastor David’s marriage. These issues reached back almost 20 years. They came to a head recently and were observed by both staff members and members of their own family.
As Pastor David’s marriage entered a crisis, he became attracted to an innocent church member. There was no physical contact between them. However, David’s actions toward this individual made it clear he had become infatuated with her mentally and emotionally. The church member contacted the appropriate authorities to report David’s indiscretion toward her. We repeat that she was, and is, totally innocent in regard to David’s issue.
David and Stephanie have been in marriage counseling with a Spirit- filled local therapist for a number of weeks. The overseers consulted with this therapist and interviewed a number of staff members and core leaders. It became clear that David is not able to continue in a leadership capacity. His personal life and family life must be totally rebuilt. He must come into alignment with pastoral accountability.
Effective today, January 1, 2017, David is tendering his resignation. The overseers are placing he and Stephanie into an extended weekly marriage therapy program that will last indefinitely. A new interim pastor, Pat Perkins, is being installed.
The overseers search will begin immediately for a new senior pastor or church that will help Building Church move to the next level. Pastor Pat, the overseers, and other guest speakers will fill the pulpit during this important search process.
We regret that leaders are human and flawed. Their humanity always disappoints people. The goal of all leaders is to be, as the Scriptures say, a “vessel of honor.” We continue to show our love and support to David and Stephanie until their marriage is restored and a new life and ministry can begin for them in another location.”
Letter from David and Stephanie Pursifull Building Church – January 1, 2017
Building Church Family,
Stephanie and I want to let you know that over the last month we have been praying and talking with our Overseers and Pastor concerning our future at Building Church. We both feel that it is time for us to step aside as Lead Pastors. Stephanie and I need a break to recharge, focus on our family and also prepare for the next season of our ministry. Our Pastor and Board of Overseers have been extraordinarily helpful to us and we are so grateful for them.
I want to apologize to you for letting you down as your pastor. I realize I have made some mistakes that will require a time of restoration. I am truly sorry for any hurt this brings to you and your family.
Building Church will remain under amazing leadership and will continue to impact and reach our community. We are so grateful for each of you and your many years of labor reaching and loving people in our community. It has truly been an honor to serve you and serve with you. We love you all deeply and you will forever be in our heart! Thank you for letting us be part or your life. Thank you for praying for us as we step into our next season of ministry. We love and honor you all.
Forever grateful! David and Stephanie
- What did Pursifull do to that innocent church member that was not physical contact but required a report to authorities?
- Were the authorities that were mentioned law enforcement?
- What is meant by developing an infatuation?
- Was he stalking this individual or doing something else equally creepy?
- What happened 20 years ago in his marriage that affected his actions today?
- Was an agreement made with the victim which caused the Overseers to emphatically state she was innocent?
- Why are the overseers already talking about restoration?
- Why do they mention ministry in a separate location?
- Do you think they already have plans for where Pursifull's next position will be?
- What do they mean by a *spirit filled* therapist?
- Do they plan to do the demon exorcism stuff?
- Did the devil make him do it?
- Why is the word *sin* not mentioned instead of the word *mistakes?*
- Pursifull himself seems to believe he is going to a new ministry so is this a done deal?
- How do they know that he is not a man with a serious mental illness?
- Pursifull seems to pat himself on the back by saying the church will *remain* under amazing leadership?
Pursifull holds a leadership position within Surge Project
What is the Surge?
The Surge Project
Surge is a part of a new paradigm in missions. Beginning in the early 90’s, we have seen a sharp turn in world missions. In the traditional outreach model of the past, missions organizations focused on sending people into remote parts of the world to preach the Good News. Although this model met with success, the obstacles posed by differences in language, culture, and distance made this model relatively slow and expensive. There is now a concentration on partnering with key apostolic leaders in the nations of the world. The emphasis is on investing in these leaders and helping them to train and send new leaders to reach the lost in their part of the world.
The Strategy
The paradigm of world missions has shifted from sending individuals across the world to evangelize, to partnering with established leadership to prepare and send church planters into the harvest. This model is being reproduced worldwide. Our strategy is to mobilize and train the local leadership willing and able to take the Gospel to their own people. Surge has accepted the task of training and partnering financially to help send these national workers into the harvest field.
The Surge Project, first and foremost, is intricately connected with the ARC. Chris Hodges is de facto supreme overseer of ARC.
Pursifull is still listed as part of the leadership for the church planting effort for Central America. (Special thanks to Cobber for this info.)
In a book, The Surge: A Global Church-Planting Initiative, written by Larry Stockwell, the leader of the Surge Project, this is what is said about Pursifull and his wife. (Thanks again to Cobber)
Why does any of this extra stuff matter?
I believe that David Pursifull did something highly creepy and scared someone so badly that reports to authorities were made. It is my opinion that the statement by the ARC Overseers stressed the innocence of the victim due to the involvement of authorities and, perhaps, lawyers. I predict that Pursifull, like Dino Rizzo before him, will be sent for a nice long rest in Hawaii on the ARC dime which is provided to the tithers who would most likely not be sent to Hawaii if they had problems. He will then, like Rizzo, be moved into a position of leadership immediately so that he can continue his work with the ARC. And they will work like maniacs to conceal what Pursifull did.
TWW hopes some brave soul at Building Church will tell the real story of David Pursifull. Also, be prepared for him to be back in some form of ARC leadership inside of 6 months.
First?
@ Refugee:
Faster than Petunia running for her favorite doggie treat!
There is a large ARC church here in my city. I know someone who goes there. Frankly, that church gives me the creeps. When this man started going there, he was recently divorced. The church staff totally love bombed my friend. If you’re not familiar with the term, it’s a technique used by abusers to get victims quickly attached.
After reading the post, the Criss Jami quote at the top makes total sense. Why hide, if there is nothing to hide?
Or, “Lies come up in the elevator; the truth takes the stairs but gets here eventually.” – Koffi Olomide
However, in this case, it would be deception or hiding, in lieu of “lies”.
“David’s issue”
Why not call it David’s sins like they do when it is women?
I would not want to live in a house with a pervert, be married to a pervert, or have a father that is a pervert. Are they trying to manipulate this woman to stay married to the perv?
@ Guest:
Definitely sinful and creepy.
“Definitely sinful and creepy.”
Something tells me he should not be trusted around children.
I wonder if David Pursifull knows Pete Wilson? Both churches are ARC, and Huntsville and Nashville aren’t that far apart.
I think there’s more to this story, too. A church isn’t going to relieve a pastor of his duties and send him to extended counseling just because we went all doe-eyed (and nothing more) over another woman.
Uh, I might need to mention I am a charismatic. Some of the stuff you might think of is weird is stuff I have seen, or practiced, or experienced-and that I believe the Bible teaches.
Can we separate out the disagreements re Charismatic doctrines from the other stuff? Just asking. I am not saying my style of church is any more or less prone to issues-just like any other type of church-but just wanted to throw that out there.
I think we can all agree on the major stuff, like God being loving and kind, like abuse being dealt with properly, etc. I have to say that the fellowship I am in now would score very highly on stuff you folks like. Plus we have women preach periodically 😀
From the ARC Dream Center website:
”
Here are some of the many ways you can give:
Give stock, bonds, life insurance or real estate. There are even ways to give that can provide you or your loved ones with tax-advantaged income.
Develop a family-giving plan. You’ll teach your children the importance of giving, and over time your regular gifts will add up significantly.
Give a portion of an inheritance you have received from your parents or others.
Name the Dream Center Foundation as a beneficiary, or residuary beneficiary, of your pension, or 403b or 401k retirement plan.
Consider the Dream Center Foundation as a way to remember deceased loved ones and friends.
Make the foundation a beneficiary of your estate, or include a gift to the foundation in your will.”
This is probably the strangest statement like this that I’ve read, in that it gives so many details yet still leaves so much mystery, as illustrated by that long bullet list of questions, questions I was asking in my mind, too. When it said “the church member contacted the appropriate authorities to report David’s indiscretion” I was like wait, authorities? Is this church authorities? or law enforcement? Is this “church member” underage? Is that why they don’t say “woman”?
But, not to worry. All is taken care of with the appropriate hocus-pocus of “Spirit-led counseling” and a move to a new locale should do the trick.
What kind of a name is The Building Church, anyway?
This is just sort of an aside, but I think that there are certain types of people who love beginning projects, they get excited about new things, they love to ‘promote’ and build. Once a project is going, they get bored with it. I wonder if some of these church planting “pastors” are like that- they love the initial excitement of promoting and building a group but once it’s off the ground and the newness wears off, their issues come to the forefront. I don’t know, I’ve just seen these kind of people in business. I’m convinced some of them were bipolar.
What exactly do they mean by “key apostolic leaders”? If they’re already there, what do they need missions for? I’m kind of confused here.
Did the devil make him do it?
No, silly. It was the spirit of Jezebel. According to Jennifer Leclaire of Charisma magazine, Jezebel is picking off pastors one by one as they succumb to their evil desires.
This is off topic.There is so much that could be said and much that has been. ‘bishop’ Eddie Long died on Sunday from an aggressive form of Cancer. I was taken back a bit by the rage on both sides but I think I understand some of it.
Nancy2 wrote:
sensible conclusion, yes
Canna wrote:
Well if you primarily define the “spirit of Jezebel” as leaders with a sense of entitlement, then yes it likely was.
Bill M wrote:
It must be VERY difficult for neo-Cals when the same organ that grants ‘headship’ to a man also has the power, when bewitched by a female evil spirit (Jezzie-baby), the same male organ can go awol …….. and make the great man forget all and act like a stag in heat
kinda wonder about the powerful esteem these neo-Cals have invested in the male organ in question …… a most unsuitable and highly excitable loci in which to invest one’s credentials, I would say
Putting this here, too so as not lost in the shuffle….
I have posted a new update on my status on the open discussion thread. Thank you all so much.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-11/#comment-305572
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
Canna wrote:
These Dylanesque lyrics peg it to the dartboard with aplomb…
…She’ll expose you, when she snows you
Off your feet with the crumbs she throws you
She’s ferocious and she knows just
What it takes to make a pro blush
All the boys think she’s a spy, she’s got Bette Davis eyes…
— Originally written by Jackie DeShannon and covered by Kim Carnes in 1981 —
From the letter to the Church…
David and Stephanie have been in marriage counseling with a Spirit- filled local therapist for a number of weeks. The overseers consulted with this therapist and interviewed a number of staff members and core leaders. It became clear that David is not able to continue in a leadership capacity.
Questions I’d like to add to the list:
– Is this therapist licensed?
– Did the therapist divulge information gained in therapy sessions? It seems the information gleaned from the therapist was used to make “clear” a decision regarding David.
The age of the recipient of his affections is not given, but stalking or harassment type behaviours towards an adult woman could also fit into needing to be reported.
@ Christiane:
Bingo.
On point.
Remnant wrote:
Good question.
And reference post by Dee on 1.09.2017.
[BTW, TWW banner needs to update to 2017.]
Nancy2 wrote:
Why not just go ahead and sign everything over to the church and be done with it.
Canna wrote:
It always has to be the woman’s fault. Maybe God should never have made women because men just so easily succumb to them–I am being very sarcastic!
@ Nancy2:
You are right. There is something more to this story. There is no question in my mind that the *innocent victim* felt seriously threatened.
Bunny wrote:
Could you please tell me what I said that you would consider normal practice in charismatic circles? I deliberately did not mention things like speaking in tongues, etc. because I do believe those are secondary issues.
However, the claim that the Holy Spirit does not indwell Christians at the time of their conversion, Robert Morris’ belief that demons indwell believers and that everyone needs to be exorcized on a regular basis along with the Apostle Paul who he believes had a demon, the belief that God will heal you if you believe hard enough and that God wants to make you financially prosperous are the issues that I meant to convey as weird.
Also, my husband became a Christian in a charismatic group in college and I attended a charismatic prayer meeting for a few years so I am not opposed to charismatics, only the excesses.
siteseer wrote:
Its cool to have weird names these days.
siteseer wrote:
I think I mentioned in one of the linked posts about their belief in the continuation of the apostolic ministry. Whoever I see that, my radar goes off. CJ Mahaney used to call himself the Head Apostle and you know what happened with him.
The Overseers are considered some sort of apostle.
Canna wrote:
Yeah-it has nothing to do with their own hormones. If the spirit of Jezebel had left them alone, the would be fine.
I have been called Jezebel on occasion. It kinds of reminds me of Elvira of the Night.
brian wrote:
We wrote about him here.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/09/27/bishop-eddie-long-accused-of-seducing-young-men/
Christiane wrote:
I had a good laugh over this. I bet I will use it in the coming years.
Remnant wrote:
I can assure you that the *spirit filled*therapist is reporting directly to the Overseers and that was part of the agreement so they can get Pursifull back on line as quickly as possible.
Licensed? I bet that had nothing to do with their consideration. He/she is probably an approved ARC therapist and that is all that matters. Pursifull will be declared demon free and cured before he jumps back into ARC business.
Beakerj wrote:
I am leaning in this direction myself.
JYJames wrote:
We are in the process of a full blog revamp. It will take about a month or so.
Joking aside, this teaching that the spirit of Jezebel, Mammon, Ashera, and Baal is the cause of your problems is saying the devil made me do it. Chris Hodges has a series on several spirits in the Church of the Highlands sermon archives. It’s interesting that the Dream Center originated at the Angeles Temple, which was built by Aimee Semple McPherson. She was also a pastor that got into a little trouble with someone else’s husband.
dee wrote:
And his wife? I wonder what she is putting up with by him and the “therapists” in order to get “him” back on his feet?
@ dee:
All good.
I wonder what this guy does when he goes to Mexico, Central America etc.?
dee wrote:
Will there be counseling available for those of us who are change intolerant?
Appreciate all the effort that goes into making TWW such a valuable resource for understanding what is going on in the world. I, for example, had never heard of ARC before coming here.
“… a break to recharge, focus on our family and also prepare for the next season of our ministry … I have made some mistakes that will require a time of restoration …” (David Pursifulls)
It always alarms me when I read stuff like this from a pastor who has failed. It means he will disappear for a short season and come baaaacccckkkk. I see no example in the New Testament of a creepy pastor regaining his ministry; but numerous warnings to believers to be on guard of them. Local congregations need to be the body which restores the fallen to ministry based on a full revelation of their sins and demonstrated repentance, not distant “Overseers”. However, in my humble but accurate opinion, any ‘pastor’ which has “issues reaching back almost 20 years” and who has messed with “an innocent church member” has disqualified himself permanently from ministry. Forgive the genuinely repentant? Absolutely! Restore them to ministry? NO!
I watched all 8 of the videos from the Launch Training, back when they were publicly accessible on Vimeo. It was… interesting. Lots of practical advice on how to start a church, like finding a location, how to organize things and find volunteers, the best and worst times of the year to do a launch… Everything a new franchisee, I mean lead pastor needs to know.
One thing that really struck me was when Hodges was talking about the Overseers, and how the Pastor was accountable to them, and not the people in the church. His reasoning was, that parents aren’t accountable to their kids, right?
Wait, did he just say that?
That’s the mindset. Some guy with a whole weekend of training and the title of Pastor knows more than the sheep in the seats. Even though some of those sheep might be Doctors and business leaders and all sorts of highly trained professionals.
ARC seems to be about quantity, not quality. They need lots of pastors to plant lots of churches, so they make it as easy as possible to become one, and stay one.
Max wrote:
As I think more about what I just said, local congregations share the blame when stuff like this happens. They are responsible for propping up such folks and ignoring red flags along the way. Too many 21st century church folks are attracted by charisma and gimmicks, lacking the spiritual discernment to see the eventual train wreck coming. This not Church, this is doing church without God.
dee wrote:
Well, since I have had several healings from God, that is not weird to me. As to the Holy Spirit, I think there is theological confusion about getting baptized in the Holy Spirit being the infilling but like you I believe if you belong to Christ the HS is in there. 😉 The rest of that stuff, without more detailed context-yep, probably weirdness. Our flavor of Christianity does seem to attract stuff that is out there. But on the other hand some stuff I believe might seem weird if out of context. I do not want to derail the discussion-I just was hoping as a charismatic I would be welcome here, mostly.
GSD wrote:
Does anyone know if ARC requires a certain percentage of a church plant’s annual revenue to be designated to ARC?
GSD wrote:
Some of most spiritual and discerning believers I have known during my long church experience have been in the pew, not the pulpit.
@ dee:
🙂 y’all are an inspiration
Max wrote:
There are detailed numbers in the first post, Building the ARC. Basically, ARC will give matching funds to new church planters, and member churches give to support ARC and new plants.
dee wrote:
I had a flashback to an episode of Star Trek, The Next Generation – “Who Watches the Watchers.”
THE OVERSEER HAS COME!
Bunny wrote:
Preach it! I love this website, but I do have Charismatic background, and there is nothing abusive about Charismatics in general. So, yeah, I hear you and when I saw that “weird doctrines” bit, I was thinking that those doctrines have nothing to do with the problems this article is on!
Max wrote:
And most have been female, in my experience.
The ARC perspective on women is hard to figure out. Probably light complentarianism. They will refer to a wife as a “pastor,” if she’s mentioned with her pastor husband (Pastors Joe and Mary Smith), but while Joe will often be renamed “Pastor Joe,” I’ve never heard an ARC wife referred to individually as “Pastor Mary.”
And I’m pretty sure that if Pastor Joe got hit by a bus (or got in legal trouble involving some vague charge of impropriety), the Overseers would not allow Mary to take over as the Pastor. She’s not really a pastor, after all. They would usually find another Pastor/Overseer dude to move to town and sort things out.
I’m not sure what happened at Crosspointe in Nashville. Maybe they had enough people on staff that they had a longer bench of guys with speaking ability.
GSD wrote:
If it weren’t for female believers, many SBC struggling churches would have closed. But the women gathered to meet and pray, while their men faded to the background. It continues to amaze me that certain corners of Christendom (e.g., New Calvinism) want to take these warriors out of the army.
dee wrote:
I read this page https://www.bethany.com/ministries/surge and by the time I translated the Christianese gobbledy-gook into English, it seems like they are saying the “old paradigm” of training missionaries, having them learn the language, and sending them into remote areas was too expensive and slow moving. Instead, they “mobilize and train the local leadership willing and able to take the Gospel to their own people.” I’m not a missions person so I must be missing something here, but I thought the purpose of missions was to go into areas where there are no local believers? How is this different than the past?
According to the Surge page, “There is now a concentration on partnering with key apostolic leaders in the nations of the world. The emphasis is on investing in these leaders and helping them to train and send new leaders to reach the lost in their part of the world.” So are these “key apostles” (such a presumptuous title, sorry!) in “the nations of the world” (so vague!) already local to the areas they are sending missions to? It seems like if an area has an “apostle” then it is already an area with a Christian presence?
I’m just confused on what they are trying to say?
Max wrote:
so it was even at the Crucifixion ….. only St. John stood with the women at the Cross ….. the other men had dispersed into hiding out of fear
“We regret that leaders are human and flawed. Their humanity always disappoints people.” (ARC Overseers)
Well, Overseers, the Church of the Living God is getting darn disappointed at this point following multiple reports of ministry failures. The Body of Christ has become increasingly concerned that we have men in the pulpit who are more human than spiritual and that we have church-planting organizations which are giving them a quick and easy route to a pulpit. If they were truly led by the Spirit, they would not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We are praying and waiting for a new generation of leaders who will not bring their human desires and sin into the pulpit … these are not the examples to the flock which God calls pastors to be; thus, they are not called. God plants those after His heart, not organizations.
Nancy2 wrote:
That’s true. I find these kinds of statements fascinating, where they are trying to gloss over things but it just can’t help but make you wonder about the real details. Like Mr. St. Louis’s ‘inappropriate with women but not technically adultery’ issue.
@ Christiane:
AMEN! May we never forget that women were the first believers to preach the Gospel!
https://www.arcchurches.com/launch/faqs
“FAQs
…..
Do church plants give back 10 percent or 2 percent?
…..
Starting on month seven, after your launch, you will begin to repay ARC at a rate of 10 percent of your church income. Since ARC churches give 10 percent (or a tithe) to missions, this amount counts as your missions dollars during the repayment period.
Once you have repaid the funds loaned to you by ARC, your missions giving will be 2 percent to ARC and 8 percent or more to your choice of recipient(s).”
Max wrote:
A couple I know went to Oklanoma to minister to people on/near an Indian reservation several years ago. Their church congregation began with only 4 women. If it were not for the women, there would have been no church.
Christiane wrote:
I never understand why this is ignored by so many men. This is significant IMO.
mot wrote:
it IS major ….. one of the greatest Christian vigils of all time
Jerome wrote:
On the surface, it sounds like a good program. In the case of SBC’s “Cooperative Program”, a significant percentage of an individual church’s CP giving is siphoned off by local, state, and national administration before it actually goes to missions.
From a puff piece on ARC founder and president Greg Surratt in Charisma’s ‘Ministry Today’ magazine (Sep/Oct 2016) p. 22:
https://issuu.com/charismamediaproduction/docs/mtso16_dig?e=6700021/37940313
“The Association of Related Churches’ (ARC) connections in the church-planting world extend into the nation’s-largest Protestant denomination. Mac Lake, who is now senior director of planter development for the Southern Baptist Convention’s North American Mission Board (NAMB), spent nearly seven years as leadership development pastor at Greg Surratt’s Seacoast Church.”
Canna wrote:
There is no end to what these guys will try to Huey (helicopter) out of the Hebrew Bible (aka Old Testament) and make it apply in the here and now.
Max wrote:
Most people in the pews are totally ignorant how the CP actually works in the SBC. I remember years ago when there was something called Training Union to teach us Baptists about how the Convention worked, but this was done many years ago. There had to have been some mighty important reasons because for years this usual Sunday night program was well attended.
“As Pastor David’s marriage entered a crisis, he became attracted to an innocent church member…David’s actions toward this individual made it clear he had become infatuated with her mentally and emotionally. The church member contacted the appropriate authorities to report David’s indiscretion toward her.”
I’d bet you can change “infatuation” and “attracted” to obsession, stalking and possibly some culminating creepy/scary/terrifying confrontation. And of course this behavior was triggered by a crisis in his marriage. Of course it was, and not because he’s mentally ill!
“The overseers are placing he and Stephanie into an extended weekly marriage therapy program that will last indefinitely,” which I think will be some variation of ‘you will not divorce your husband or seek any non- nouthetic counseling; the problems in your marriage are not related to you husband’s mental illness. What is your role in this?’ Of course, there’s no indication that he is being required to seek psychological counseling or psychiatric care. Sigh.
Bridget wrote:
It sounds like she works there too, so their entire financial world is tied into this church perhaps.
In rereading the statement, it does sound curious they said ‘individual’ instead of woman. It may not mean she was a child, but then again it was chosen for a reason.
As I said on Twitter, I’m getting an “American Beauty” vibe from this.
FW Rez wrote:
Neither had I, but I had apparently been to a couple of their churches. Funny who that works? This secret denomination thing is kind of creepy.
GSD wrote:
I thought it was sort of interesting/irritating that letter was signed by the husband and wife but written from the husband’s voice.
mot wrote:
Yes, I’m old enough to remember those! The “training” in an SBC Training Union depended on local church leadership. Some of them were simply weekly Bible studies which stayed in the Word … others were cluttered with denominational indoctrination. As a layman, I personally hijacked some of them to make sure we stayed in the Scripture and away from theo-politics. I guess I’ve always been a trouble-maker.
FW Rez wrote:
TWW does a great job on reporting fringe movements of this sort. Unfortunately, the fringe is growing and the mainstream is shrinking. “Another gospel” is replacing the Gospel at the margins. Here’s how one commenter described their ARC experience on another blog:
“1) The ARC churches are seeker sensitive or emergent, depending on the church.
2) A lot of ARC churches can be dangerous spiritually, which is no joking matter.
3) The governing system of the ARC can decrease the amount of control by the members.
4) Lots of ARC churches, even the most solid ARC churches do support/mention false teachers. This alone should be a giant red flag.
5) I would almost never recommend an ARC Church to a new Christian; and even then, I would warn them of a lot of things to know before going in.
6) The ARC should be avoided due to their sketchy affiliations and how a lot of their churches are [as in their doctrine].
Although the ARC is not all bad and has its few good points, it should in general be avoided. I highly disagree with a lot of the ARC itself but there are a few somewhat solid churches [and those do not go that much in depth; more like evangelism and gospel messages presented frequently in all new formats for sermons] in the ARC (and even those are highly misguided). If at all possible, avoid the ARC due to their sketchy affiliations.”
Max wrote:
This is one of the main issues for me. They seem very secretive. Gateway doesn’t vote on Robert Morris’s salary, there is a huge conflict of interest inherent in this ‘overseers’ thing.
Max wrote:
The first person Jesus had a dialog with after his resurrection was a woman. The men were skeptical in various degrees when they heard the news from a woman. This seems to go against the teaching in some churches that men have such great discernment and the woman should just be silent.
Bridget wrote:
My guess? They have promised good things to come within the ARC and since she is considered a pastor alongside her husband, she is hanging in there.
Max wrote:
I agree but I guarantee you that he will be back soon. It’s an ARC thing.
GSD wrote:
Great comment.
Bunny wrote:
Let me ask you if you can document any healings from serious illnesses. By this I mean a limb that was amputated which grew back or a terminal cancer which are documented by pictures, MRIs, blood work, etc. that immediately disappeared after prayer without medical intervention. Not anecdotal stories but actually documentation like an arm that was amputated which grew back.
They tried to get Benny Hinn to provide claim of even one healing. He provided a before and after photo of a tumor but didn’t mention the surgery the patent had.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/12/31/hinn-does-not-heal-–-liar-liar-pants-on-fire/
Jesus told the lepers to go to the Temple to confirm their healing. Christians must do the same.
The same goes for David Platt who claims people are being raised from the dead on the mission field but he does not provide one scintilla of proof. Merely anecdotal word of mouth stories.
http://blog.godreports.com/2016/09/david-platt-recounts-story-of-man-raised-from-dead-in-southeast-asia/
I think things like this make us look like fools in the eye of the world. We have a guaranteed precious miracle to offer to all those who are forgiven of our sins and we water down the miracle each time pass on an undocumented physical miracle.
Before you get to thinking that I am cold on this subject, my daughter survived two neurosurgeries for a malignant brain tumor. Did she have a supernatural miraculous healing since they gave her a less than 10% chance of survival? I do not know. I am content to say that her pediatric neurosurgeon was top notch and God was merciful to my family.
I think Matt 9:1-7 shows the real intent of physical miracles and that was to show that Jesus was who he said he was.
Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home.
The man wished to be healed. Jesus said “Your sins are forgiven.” That is the real miracle of healing-our relationship with God.The Pharisees knew that only God could forgive sins and they didn’t believe Jesus was God. Jesus then healed the man physically to show them that He was truly the Son of God.
I think so many times we get caught up in wanting to be healed from our illnesses and wanting to be wealthy in this life, we overlook the real miracle which is our sins our forgiven. That is what we need to offer to this fallen world.
I believe that God can heal the whole world but he chooses not to do so at this time. I do not believe that God provides physical miraculous healings in great quantities nor are they to be expected. They do happen occasionally but I want to see them scrupulously documented.
dee wrote:
In a roundabout way (via ARC member Robert Morris), they put unrepentant Mark Driscoll back on the map. Anything … anything … is possible in the American church. But, I have a feeling that God will show up soon … but not the way they are expecting Him.
dee wrote:
Oh wow. I read the link. I had no idea Platt told that to the exec committee.
dee wrote:
An obvious difference from the New Calvinist model, ARC appears to be all over the place on doctrine … pushing “seeker friendly” over correct theology. I wonder if wife/pastor has a ‘real’ ministry in ARC churches, or just in name only?
dee wrote:
From the link “Jokingly, Platt said if he wasn’t dead, God chose an opportune moment for the man to cough.”
Southern Baptists are out of their right spiritual mind to allow New Calvinists to control SBC entities. I just wish the denomination could be raised from the dead!
@ Max:
Max- Thanks for the overview.
Lea wrote:
That is interesting… And consistent. She probably doesn’t have a voice. Unless it involves children’s church. Or paint colors. You know, girly stuff.
I should add that not all ARC churches are equally dysfunctional. And there are some elements that could be pretty cool, like the Dream Centers. But the health of each church depends largely on the health and character of the leadership.
Sadly, there seem to be ARC commonalities. There are reasons that these folks gravitate toward starting an ARC church, or joining an existing church to ARC. Sometimes, the ARC structure is an improvement from the total dysfunction of their previous church. Sometimes, it’s partly about the Benjamins, or the way the pastor is put on a pedestal and doesn’t have to answer to those below him. And the way errant leaders are given lots of leeway, and returned to ministry quickly. Dee’s right, it’s an ARC thing.
@ dee:
Platt does not say that the man was dead but rather that they thought he was dead, and Platt clearly indicates that he is inclined to believe it. This is unusual but not rare for somebody to be thought dead when in fact they are not. From time to time the media report somebody who was declared dead and sent to the hospital morgue and was later found to be alive. There was a case of this at a hospital where I was, but many years before I got there. You would think that hospital personnel could recognize death, but apparently not always.
Jesus told the people that the little girl was not dead but only ‘sleeping’ and what he told her was to get up. If we take that at face value then the girl was indeed not dead and they were mistaken in thinking that she was. However, Lazarus had apparently been dead. IMO we can see both kinds of phenomena in scripture in relation to Jesus’ miracles. That does not make these people in the morgue miracles nor does it make the incident that Platt reports a miracle, but it does I think introduce another variable in thinking about these sorts of things.
And now I read that the people researching death are saying that we are not dead, as in forever dead, at the moment we have cardiorespiratory failure but that rather they think they can bring people back as it were for a rather long time after that, except apparently with some brain damage due to anoxia. I am not thinking this would be a good idea exactly until they can get some really good long term results. But in the meantime they are staying just keep on keeping on with the CPR-much longer than they used to say.
So, I am agreeing with you that we need to be cautious, but I do think that there is just a lot that we still do not know about death.
okrapod wrote:
they are saying
okrapod wrote:
… and God.
Canna wrote:
My goodness – she must be getting really tired. 😉
Did You Hear the Weird Story About Pastor David Pursifull’s Resignation from the ARC’s Building Church?
He also lived in a Weird House, check out the link below
http://www.wgem.com/story/8506712/cracked-house
Max wrote:
Yes. And that idea is biblical.
Ken G wrote:
Hmmm ….. an act of God ……. one of those David Platt “miracles”?
siteseer wrote:
That is very much my ex-husband. When I put my foot down (one of the rare occasions) about him becoming a church pastor, he quickly abandoned seminary and began starting businesses.
@ dee:
“Its cool to have weird names these days.”
+++++++++++++
i’m waiting for Erection Church to come on the scene.
@ okrapod:
I am going to disagree with you on this one. He doubled down on the guy was dead with this statement “Platt acknowledged he doesn’t have medical evidence from the remote location to verify the resurrection, but said: “I do know at villages like this, they know how to recognize death.” Then he joked
“Jokingly, Platt said if he wasn’t dead, God chose an opportune moment for the man to cough.
“Here’s what I do know: We have the Good News of a God who has conquered death, who has power to say to the dead, ‘Come to life.’”
How many times have you been a in church or missions conference in which everyone agrees that all kinds of miracles are being performed on the mission field: people raised from the dead as one such example. But, no one has any proof, including Platte. If you do not have proof, don’t tell the story like a miracle happened.
elastigirl wrote:
Well that one woke me up on this rainy day in Raleigh!!! Can’t wait to share it over dinner with hubby!
@ Ken G: I think the sinkhole was some sort of prophecy of what was going to happen a few years later.
@ dee:
I do not care to share my medical history publically but I have had several small and one pretty large thing healed. That last thing was incurable by medical science but I was released by my doc over a decade ago and has not come back.
I also know other folks who have had healings. I am not arguing that there are not charlatans out there, and I am not saying that every person I ever saw prayed for got healed, but I am saying that the question has been answered to my own satisfaction. I am not interested in arguing with anyone or trying to convince you or anyone else. I just know what I have experienced and what I have seen and heard.
dee wrote:
Hopefully it will not lose its straight forward simplicity and ease of navigation. And hopefully too, it won’t succumb to ‘feature bloat’.
Oh, and I am totally NOT one of those folks against doctors and medicine. God heals in many ways. He is God and He likes variety!
elastigirl wrote:
SHHHHH!!!! don’t give Driscoll any ideas for new material!
@ Muff Potter:
It will be the same old, same old just in an easier to read version with a few pages of explanation regarding some of our FAQ.
@ Bunny:
No need to convince me. However, it is very difficult for families who have lost children to cancer to hear if they had only prayed harder, their child would have survived. This brings into question why? Did the person who got healed pray better, longer, harder, etc.
Some parents have been told that if they only had faith, God would heal their child. Then the child dies after the fervent prayers of the parents and many friends. The parents are left then with feeling of grief and pain. I mention these circumstances because they are close and personal to our family having had one child who survived a brain tumor as well as a friend of the child who died of leukemia.
Interestingly, I did not think God would heal my daughter because I know that most children with these types of tumors die. So, I spent most of my time praying that God would help me walk through this in such a way as to help my child. Conversely, the family friends who lost their daughter to leukemia absolutely believed she would be healed. They had so many people praying. They would not let anyone into the hospital to see her who did not believe that God would heal her. They even fired the psychiatrist because he was trying to prepare the family and the young teen for the inevitability of her death. And she did die.
I think these are difficult questions. I remember one time Pat Robertson prayed that a hurricane wouldn’t hit his area. he rejoiced that it didn’t. Instead it hit further up the coast and hurt many people. Yet, he said God answered his prayer. I guess he prayed better than people up the coast?
Just some things to think about.
I totally agree with what Bunny has said. I also was raised charismatic. I am not going to tell you all the times that God has healed me, but he has. I’m not going to share the times he has healed many of my family members and friends, but he did. Yes, a couple of them were documented, but that is not for me to tell, it is their story, not mine. Do I still believe God heals today, yes I do. Do I believe he lengthens limbs, yes I do. Have I ever seen it no. I never liked the so called “Healing Services” and the likes. I know there are a lot of charlatans out there who claim to do things in the name of God, and they don’t.
Dee, what you wrote above about prayer and healing, this is an area where I am really struggling. I’ve never been part of a charismatic church, and have never consciously believed most distinctively charismatic doctrine (I.e., the secondary stuff).
That said, this kind of thinking has deeply infiltrated the church as a whole, I think. I’ve got two kids with potentially life-threatening illnesses. My own health is shaky enough that I struggle to care for them and my other child. And while I don’t believe in magical thinking regarding prayer or even one’s speech/choice of words, there’s still something there that rails – and wails – against God not providing stability if not healing.
This is my problem with everyday miracle-type thinking. Rationally, I know all the Bible answers; but my heart still shrinks from God.
Meanwhile, all the good old boys, of all types and stripes, prosper, are surrounded by love, are restored to the fold.
Persephone wrote:
You ask tough questions. I, too, have struggled in this regard. It seems like God tends to heal sore backs a whole bunch but many children of faithful families still die of cancer.
I attended some talks by Joni Erickson Tada who addressed a medical gathering on the needs of the handicapped. She discussed her years of prayer for healing and the ability to walk again (she is a quadriplegic.) She is a faithful woman yet God has not healed her of her paralysis. He has given her a ministry from her wheelchair that has touched many people. She said that her wheelchair is God’s answer to her prayer.
For many years, I waited for my daughter’s brain tumor to return. In fact, on MRIs they could see what they called residual tumor. I would wake everyday and wonder if it would be this day that her tumor showed itself again, growing quickly.
I believe in a God who can do miracles. After all, he created the universe and gave us this beautiful planet on which to live. But people pray and still die of illness, starvation, accidents. etc. People lose limbs or are confined to wheelchairs due to paralysis. Children are born severely handicapped, living with the minds of infants, unable to walk. Children are kidnapped and tortured and people are sold into slavery.
Within all of these groups. there are faithful families who have prayed for miracles. Yet, more often than not, the wished for miracle, healing or rescue from any of the above does not happen. Then we have to think-how do we live with this pain.
For me, the only thing that I held onto during my daughter’s illness was knowing that she was going to be cured after her death and that one day I would see her again in heaven-made whole and free from pain. I clung to that throughout her illness. It took 10 years before the neuro-oncologists and surgeons were willing to say she was a cure. During the 10 years I watched many children in the brain tumor clinic fade away and die, inspire of the prayers of faithful people.
What those families would have given for a miracle. I have come to the conclusion that I must keep my eyes focused on the very real miracle that is a guarantee for all believers. That is the hope of heaven and final healing.
In the meantime, I think it is hard for those who struggle to hear others tell them “God will cure your child” when they are only hoping and guessing. I also do not like the bait and switch. They say “We know your child will be healed.” The child dies. Then they say “See, she is now healed.”
When people approach those who are dealing with serious tragedy and illnesses, their promises of physical healing in this life are painful because all of us know that God does not usually physically heal those with serious cancers, paralysis, etc. But, He does walk with us and give us peace and strength for the day. But, the pain, deep in your gut, lingers. To this day, I still suffer the residual anxiety of those years.
I am so sorry for the pain that you are suffering as you fear for the lives of your children. I will pray that you feel God’s presence in those times when you are exhausted and cry yourself to sleep. I understand and have been there.
dee wrote:
I had a dear friend who died of cancer who literally had people all over the world praying for him. Yes, there are hard questions. I think blaming people for lack of faith, etc. is just plain cruel. But I am also one of those people who is okay with not having everything figured out. God is God and I am not. (Interestingly that was a familiar saying of my dear departed friend.)
For me, I am like the three Hebrew men whom Nebuchadnezzar threw into the fire-I believe God heals today. But even if He does not, I still love and trust Him. I also believe like Abraham-who fully faced the fact his body was dead (in regards to producing an heir) but still believed God.
God knows every one of our days before one of them came to be. Only He knows when we are done. But He is a good Daddy, and I will always ask Him for healing when appropriate. He let me know one time He hates suffering and the ONLY reason He ever allowed it is if there were a greater good to come out of the situation. I have been through a lot in life but I know I never went through any of it alone.
I live an hour or so from Raleigh so maybe one day these things could get discussed in person if there is interest. But really, I just wanted to let you know your audience was a bit broader than maybe you knew. 😉
elastigirl wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1PsTtESoKQ
siteseer wrote:
I’d be like “Indiscretion(TM)” — did he get caught with a live boy or dead woman?
After all, it really worked for those Romish Papist Pedo Priests, didn’t it?
dee wrote:
Just like all the SPECTACULAR Paranormal stuff in the tabloids. All way over in some unnamed Third World country where you can’t check on it. Or where any documentation has been destroyed/suppressed/silenced by The Conspiracy.
@ Bunny:
I would love to meet you!!! You will get a TWW certified bag of Cheetos-to symbolize that we are living in our mothers’ basements in pajamas and eating Cheetos.
I know our audience is varied. There are atheists who are loyal readers as well.
Bunny wrote:
From a broad view I would agree. However, have you ever sat in a room watching a little child dying of cancer, crying in discomfort and unable to understand what is happening? I am not sure this is for God’s greater good. I believe it is something that we all must share. Our rebellion caused this child to suffer. It would not have happened had we obeyed from the beginning.
In the meantime, I am concerned that David Pursifull might be put back in the pulpit along with a declaration of his demons being vanquished and him being healed of his creepy behavior. Instantaneous healing of a mental illness. is something to watch out for.
I have close personal ties to some Gateway members who steadfastly tell me Gateway is totally nondenominational. I pressed and asked “what about a loose association of churches?” And he said absolutely not, it’s totally nondenominational. I see obvious ties from many of the churches featured on TWW, but how could I find Gateway on a list or a way to show them? The website you linked was a map only with no ability to search individual churches. Are they hiding in plain sight?
@dee maybe I missed something, but is “healing” a trigger topic? seemed like @bunny got attcked for saying she had been healed in the past, instead of rejoicing, she was admonished at length. I’m taken back. She also didn’t say any of the things mentioned in later post. Not sure of @bunny history on TWW, but wow! I’ve not been healed, for decades, but I pray still. Eyes on Jesus, but if I do get healed, should I share it here, or will I be thrown out of the temple and my parents grilled? I take great comfort in Joni’s testimony, and others; she’s gone through amazing things and has spoke comfort to many. @bunnys rebuke sure was discouraging. Thanks for reading, appreciate it.
@ Finallyfree:
I am heading for bed. I’ll get you some links I the AM. Yes, they are nondenominational but they are ARC as well.
Finallyfree wrote:
https://www.arcchurches.com/about/find-a-church
Plug in “Gateway” in the search field (you have to scroll down below the map) and you’ll get six entries with “Pastor Robert Morris.”
@ Finallyfree:
@ Finallyfree:
Here is a quickie thing for your to do. Go to this link at the ARC.
https://www.arcchurches.com/about/find-a-church
In the search at the top of the page, put in Gateway and viola! More in the AM
Bunny wrote:
The only ‘greater good’ I believe in is that the vast majority of human suffering is on our own dime and that we have the power to put an end to it.
dee wrote:
I find the mindset among Word of Faith Charismatics on this can be found in other types of theologies or denominations.
I was raised in a Southern Baptist background, and they’re not into WOF, far from it. Yet, I come across this thinking (even among Baptists), that if you need or want God’s help (for a physical healing or some other issue), if you just do X, Y, and Z enough (pray enough, have enough faith), God will heal you.
So, if you have clinical depression (like I used to have), you should rely only on spiritual means for a healing. You will be shamed for relying on counseling, medications, etc.
You will be encouraged to pray, trust in God, etc., for a healing.
But when those faith measures don’t work, you will be blamed by those Christians. You’ll be told that you must lack faith, you have hidden sin in your life, and other possible explanations are given, all that blame YOU.
I never knew what to do with that type of thinking, because over much of my life I was the most sincere, goody- goody, Jesus- Loving- Christian you could ever meet. Yet, I didn’t get a supernatural healing.
Neither did my mother. She didn’t get a supernatural healing. My Mom was a very loving, devout Christian, too (no hidden sin, she prayed hard enough, had faith).
I find it difficult watching most Christian television programming any more, because 99% of the time, they only feature the interviews with the people who got a divine miracle healing.
(And the healing is usually INSTANT, like within five minutes, or 24 hrs, after the person prays for it).
In all my many years of watching Christian TV, I’ve seen only about TWO interviews (with 2 different people) where one did not get their healing they were seeking, and the other lady got her healing, but only after like 20 or 30 YEARS (decades!!) of praying for it.
I find this sort of thing very discouraging, and I think it’s “deceptive advertising” by Christians.
I’d actually find more comfort seeing more Christians interviewed on these shows who admit, “I never got my healing, not even after 30 years of praying,” or, “In spite of all the prayers, my spouse died from the disease any how.”
If I saw those kinds of interviews, at least I would then know God is not neglecting my family or me, and playing favorites. At least I’d know other people were in the same boat as me, and I’d feel less alone about all this.
But anyway, I do have some problems with the ‘Word of Faith’ view that you will get a miracle if you just pray long enough, hard enough, be positive enough, utter enough biblical positive confessions, or do whatever recipe they tell you to do – and more often than not, none of this stuff brings about a miracle.
There’s a lot I could say about the healing subject but I will hold my tongue. Just please think about how your words sound to people who are dealing with serious, incurable illnesses or have loved ones that are.
Daisy wrote:
Thank you for this, Daisy. You understand.
Bunny wrote:
I’m glad for you, but this has not been my experience.
God didn’t heal my mom. She died. I was left to cope all alone.
I tried reaching out to other Christians (family and local churches), and they either condemned me or gave me platitudes or lame advice. Nobody wanted to walk with me through the pain.
God did not make his presence known or felt, so after a few years of praying, I sort of slacked off.
On some days, I don’t pray at all, because it is easier than praying and still not getting an answer or help.
I had to walk this all alone. No help from God or from Christians. I don’t see any good coming out of i or that came from it.
@ rich:
You might want to read my post here, unless you already have. It might inform you as to why some of us are not comfortable or do not like the “I was healed by Jesus, and all I did was have faith/ pray!!” type stories:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/01/16/did-you-hear-the-weird-story-about-pastor-david-pursifulls-resignation-from-the-arcs-building-church/comment-page-1/#comment-305761
I find such “I was healed” testimonies pretty discouraging. Not uplifting.
siteseer wrote:
You’re welcome. I’d just like to add, I don’t limit this only to healing. It can be anything.
If you’ve been laid off from a job, wanting a new one, but God is not answering your fervent prayers for a new job, that can be anxiety provoking or painful.
Or, maybe your marriage (if you have one) is on the brink, and instead of restoring your marriage as you’ve been begging God, your spouse handed you divorce papers the other day.
It could be any thing, any sort of problem.
God does not always deliver people from any and every bad thing they are going through when they pray about it and have faith.
Hearing other people go on about how they were instantly delivered from their failed marriage, sickness, financial woe (whatever the issue is), actually bums me out more, because it makes me feel that God must love me less or does not care about me, since he didn’t answer my prayers for help with X, Y, Z.
Max wrote:
It’s ‘life’ I don’t think we ‘get’.
I wonder why we try to draw a strict dividing line between the natural world and the supernatural power of the God that creates and holds the natural world intact and holds the life of every creature in His Hand? Can we separate the two utterly? I would leave it to mystery.
That David Platt could ‘joke’ about what he says he witnesses to betrays him, I think.
@ Daisy:
I understand both views, but I think we should weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice.
Bunny was not disparaging anyone about not being healed. She just seemed to be sharing her experiences.
I do disagree with her point about “not being healed because there must be a greater good,” though.
@ Daisy:
dee wrote:
Yeah, this world is broken. And we did the breaking.
Bridget wrote:
Oh, I do not believe that either. I believe in fighting for healing. In war there are casualties. I am not a theologian but I believe God is good, and if something is not good, He is against it. I will never claim I understand the theology of healing. I just know I have experienced it. I have also seen people NOT get healed. And my big theological answer is I DO NOT KNOW WHY.
Finallyfree wrote:
I am not offended. It is a tender subject for many. As I said on another post in this thread, I lost a dear friend over a decade ago. Many many prayers were prayed and many tears were shed by MANY and he still died. I know some folks had their faith shaken. In my case, I understand that *I do not know* is a valid answer for me. I have to trust God with the mysteries.
I worked as a ward clerk in a Catholic hospital while I was at university. There was a sign at the main entrance that read:
‘We bandage the wound. God heals it.’
I am certain we take even the smallest healings that are ‘natural’ for granted, but I think we need to take a step back away from that ‘strict’ separation because we miss so much of the witness of the Creator that is found within the ‘natural’ world. It is said that death is a part of life. All I know is that for Christian people, we have this prayer: “Jesus Christ, we trust in You”, and that there is a certain peace found in that trusting, that death is not the end for those who were loved.
https://vimeo.com/65019294
@ Daisy:
I am not Word of Faith, just so you know. I think people who are antimed for things like depression have maybe never known what depression was. I certainly do not agree with that stance!
@ Bunny:
oop@ Bunny:
Can someone delete this? I quoted the wrong post!!!
rich wrote:
I am not offended. This is a tender subject for many. I understand.
Bunny wrote:
In the SBC churches I’ve belong to, they’ve always said, ” God answers our prayers, but he doesn’t always give us the answers we want, and he doesn’t always answer when we want him to.”
2 Corinthians 12:7-10New King James Version (NKJV)
The Thorn in the Flesh
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
dee wrote:
There is a 9Marks-affiliated church in Burnsville, MN, not far from where I live, called Eden Baptist Church. Its logo? A fig leaf.
@ Bridget:
No, I got that she was “just sharing” her experience, but I’m saying for me, hearing about such experiences can be a downer
I also feel that people who joyfully yak about their healing seem naively oblivious to the pain the rest of us feel who did NOT get a healing (for ourselves or a family member)
@ Bunny:
Well, my mother and I fought for healing and neither one got it.
I think Arc is best characterized as a marketing/business development organization. It’s more entrepreneurial than spiritual.
Also, thank you for reporting on Arc! We had a very difficult experience with an Arc church a few years ago and you guys were one of the few sources of information I found.
Christiane wrote:
That is exactly correct. The best that medicine can do is make some inroads into understanding how nature works and try to work with/against that to get the patient into a position where they can live with their best functions enabled to function at their best and where the invasive forces of nature that would hinder that are beaten back and immobilized to the extent possible.
When we say did God do it or did nature do it or did our people in white coats to it the answer is ‘yes’ as far as we know. I believe and and I hope that those of us who do or did wear white coats are on God’s side, but I also know that there is an enormous amount that we just do not know, about nature and about God.
We still have, as believers, ‘thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’ and ‘give us today our daily bread’ and if all is bleak and there is no bread today we still pray that again and again because we were told to do that, and because we do not understand. Nor are we promised understanding-yet.
Muff Potter wrote:
Yes.
okrapod wrote:
Amen.
Job speaks to us of his God ‘In Whose Hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind’
(from Job 12:10)
I have found the film ‘The Tree of Life’ to be helpful in the midst of deep grief. But I didn’t know why it helped as it did, maybe with perspective.
I was just thankful.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Moving bad actors around is a bad idea. You would think someone would have picked up on that.
Finallyfree wrote:
I got a similar answer talking to gateway people. They do not know or believe they are a denomination. It is very sneaky.
siteseer wrote:
I can see why it’s a touchy subject. I think it’s in the way people talk about it, sometimes. It is a clear fact that God very often does not give us what we want in life. Life isn’t fair. We aren’t all healed. We don’t all get the things we pray for. That doesn’t mean it’s not ok to praise him when we do, but somewhere it can cross a line into blaming those who don’t (whether we’re talking about healing, or wealth or relationships). I think the blaming aspect, and the ‘you just didn’t have enough faith’ part is where it goes too far. I also don’t think children dying is for God’s glory or for the greater good and I’m never going to be persuaded of that.
Nancy2 wrote:
I grew hearing God answers all prayers. Sometimes it’s a Yes, sometimes it’s a no, and sometimes it is ‘wait’.
rich wrote:
I think you used the word *attacked* as well. Sometimes, I find it helpful, not only for the readers, but for myself to discuss issues that have caused much pain in my life as well as the lives of others. healing is one of those things. I have no problem with Bunny or anyone else saying that they were healed from something. However, in this community are also many people who have not been healed of incredibly serious diseases along with those who have been seriously abused, etc.
I think it is valid to discuss what we believe about healing and look at the claims of miraculous healing. Reread my comments. I have a daughter who survived a large malignant brain tumor. Was it a miraculous intervention or was it due the care of her pediatric neurosurgeon? She also survived despite my pessimism that she would.
In contract, that daughter’s dear friend was diagnosed with leukemia in high school. That family believed that God would miraculously intervene and save her he didn’t. That family lives with the guilt that perhaps they didn’t pray hard enough, believe enough, etc.
This subject got started when someone brought up David Platt (maybe it was me) who claimed a man was raised from the dead. I do not think Christians should make such claims unless they are willing to share the medical proof.
I am sorry that you feel that I admonished her and attacked her. I really didn’t think I was doing that. I was just exploring some hard questions. I am sorry if it came across that way. It was not my intent and my motivation was to explore hard questions.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, there is a passage in Hebrews about heroes of the faith who did not obtain what they sought-and that the world was not worthy of them. I think about that when I think about folks in your shoes.
scott hendrixson wrote:
I am glad the blog was of help to you. We try quite hard to give information so that people can explore what is going on their churches.
Out of curiosity, you don’t have to give details, etc. what sort of difficulty did you experience? You don’t need to answer but I am always trying to figure out how the things I write about manifest themselves in the daily lives of readers.
On the issue of healing, look at this post. Being aware of how ARC and the Overseers have handled this in the past, how would you feel if they claim, in the future, that Pursifull has been healed in short order and put back into a position of leadership?
@ dee:
I know you were not attacking me.
I think there is a lot that God wants to teach us on the subject. I know that the most important thing to God is our relationship to Him. He does not shy away from hard questions but on the other hand He does not seem to feel obligated to answer them a lot of times either. When I was going through some particularly rough stuff I found the book of Job comforting.
I know that when Jesus walked on the earth He healed all that came to Him, and I know He said that if we saw Him we saw the Father. I take that to mean that God wants us well. We live in a broken world, we see through a glass darkly, but I will always have hope in Him when it comes to things. He did not keep my family from losing our house and car a few years ago, but through that struggle there were things He did for us spiritually that I would not exchange for anything. One of my healings came during that time when there was NO money for a doctor whatsoever. Either He took care of the issue or I continued in pain. Well, He took care of it. Now the same God who fixed the issue could have fixed our financial crisis, but He had a different path for us for that. OR perhaps we missed his leading somewhere-but even then He was with us. Even when people, not so much. People can and will fail you.
My heart hurts for people like Daisy. Such things should not be. And such things are not Gods heart for her.
dee wrote:
I think what you are is suspicious, and rightly so. What I read from your initial comment (aside from pain, apologies if that’s too personal), was a very scientific method of looking at reports of healing. That skepticism is needed, because unscrupulous persons use reports of healing to obtain money and personal power and adulation.
What bunny speaks of, to me, is a different, more personal look at her own life. When an illness goes away, we can thank the doctor, or we can thank god or we can thank both. Processing grief is much more difficult. So is survivors guilt.
dee wrote:
I would say a lot of time needs to pass before he should be trusted (time for proof). Depending on what the issue is, maybe he should never be trusted in a leadership position again. Character healing is a different issue and cannot be proven quickly like a medical healing might be proven, or not.
DEE … During your research on ARC, did you run across any connection to the “Leadership Network”? I see occasional reference to common characters in both movements (e.g., Robert Morris). Mark Driscoll once said that the emergent movement was essentially created by LN. I wonder what hand they have had in other movements such as New Calvinism and ARC? From what I understand about LN, they help facilitate new ways of doing church by networking up-and-coming leaders who will drive the American Church of the future. As we are finding out, “new and improved” has been causing some problems.
Daisy wrote:
There is definitely a balance needed. I understand, all too well, the feelings of sadness when others are rejoicing about their life, kids, health, money, etc. and how God is so good and wonderful because He yadayadayada for them. On the other hand, I don’t want to resent what God has done, or the good fortune and joy other people are experiencing because I am not experiencing those things. It is a constant struggle for me.
sometimes we are cared for by the providence of God, but we do not recognize this at the time because the circumstances are so ….. well, here’s an old Jewish story that illustrates how this might happen:
“Rabbi Akiva was accustomed to saying “Everything God does is for the good”. Once Rabbi Akiva was traveling with a donkey, rooster, and candle and when night came he tried to find lodging in a nearby village only to be turned away. Although Rabbi Akiva was forced to spend the night in the field, he did not lament his fate. Instead his reaction was “Everything God does is for the best”.
A wind came and blew out his candle, a cat ate his rooster, and a lion came and ate his donkey, and again Rabbi Akiva’s reaction was “Everything that God does is for the best”. That night a regiment came and took the entire town captive, while Rabbi Akiva who was sleeping in the field went unnoticed and thus was spared. When Rabbi Akiva realized what happened he said, “Didn’t I tell you that everything that God does is for the best”?” If the candle, rooster or donkey would have been around, the regiment would have seen or heard them and would have also captured Rabbi Akiva.”
@ Max:
the “Leadership Network”
++++++++++++++
mmmmmmm… when i think of ‘christian’-shadowy-entity The Leadership Network is the first thing that comes to mind.
dee wrote:
I have a great appreciation for the balance I’ve found here between hard questions and concern for individuals. I also humorously note that the blog queens have the humility to let stand their own typos. If I had the ability I would be tempted to go back to fix some of mine.
elastigirl wrote:
Well, there is/was certainly a lot of shadows associated with the emergent church movement, where Driscoll got his start … and who could ever forget Rob Bell and his heresy?! According to the Berean Research group, “The Leadership Network has played a pivotal role in the Emerging Church movement”. LN organized leaders of that crazy movement to work their magic on the American church. http://bereanresearch.org/emergent-church/
Driscoll himself also admitted LN’s involvement with emergent church: https://criswell.wordpress.com/2006/03/27/hello-world/
Driscoll left emergent to become resurgent … and was submergent for a while before reinventing himself again in Arizona.
dee wrote:
This is done to victims all the time. “God has not healed them and they are not moving on”. Many churches will position a seeking of justice as “not being healed”.
But for some strange reason God instantly cures the perp of their evil. Sigh.
@ Lydia:
All I know is what has been reported here. But in general if someone is dealing with a moral failure, to me the big difference is this-did THEY come and confess and repent and then submit to a restoration plan OR were they caught first? I know of at least one person who did have moral failure but who took responsibility and humbled themselves-and, oh, the horror-went to work in the marketplace for awhile. But in neither case that I am aware of was it a quick fix. In one it took years. In the other I think it was about a year but they were not a senior pastor. I personally that in that latter case they really were restored and walked in moral freedom from there on out for the rest of their life.
Having said that-I am quite aware that in other cases either people got a slap on the wrist, or for whatever reason refused to subject themselves to a restoration process in whole or in part and then went off to get back into ministry again. Ministry is NOT the be all and end all or the untouchable career. I personally think anyone considering full time ministry can and should have a job skill they can and could use in the marketplace-because frankly that is where Jesus is doing a lions share of the work to start with, and also because bivocational ministers understand much better the stresses of their congregants. My pastor is bivocational (our church is small) and has made it work for him quite well. It also forces the rest of us to step up and help with the work of the ministry-which we are supposed to do to start with.
@ dee:
Well put dee. There’s a vast gulf of difference between attacking someone for their religious beliefs on healing and simply pointing out that supernatural intervention by the Almighty is the exception rather than he rule.
Lea wrote:
I had a work colleague who got lung cancer. We weren’t close friends but once when I stopped by to see how she was doing, she started confiding her frustrations with people’s comments–I’m guessing I was a safe repository because I was not part of her church community (or any church community. We worked at a small rural school where most people’s lives were intertwined.
She said one thing that really hurt her was people who asked if she smoked (she didn’t), because the implication was so strong that their sympathy would be lessened if she had. But the worst was when fellow Christians would tell her that God never gives us more than we can handle. She said she had never realized what a unhelpful, judgmental, dismissive statement that was until she got sick.
Lydia wrote:
Rank Hath Its Privileges, and Some Are More Equal Than Others.
@ dee:
@ dee:
Dee
When we had our issue, I looked everywhere for validation. Ultimately, I found validation only in the love and acceptance of Jesus that I’m not sure I had ever before realized. As God’s love filled my heart, I was able to love the very source of the pain. Before I came to the place of love and forgiveness, I spent some time alone in the desert. Many of our old friends were still in the crowd and the ones who left with us were either angry or run into after their own religious ambitions. My wife didn’t seem to fully understand at first why we couldn’t just go along and get along and we found little help from the other Christian communities we visited. Your posts contained information and encouragement without the spite that would have driven my desire to get even. Your posts confirmed the things that I knew in my heart to be true about what had experienced. I’d be glad to tell you everything I know about ARC and our experience if there’s a way to do that without everyone seeing all the details. Thanks again!
Max wrote:
That is quite a lot of, um, transformations. No, the same old person changing labels is not really having a transformation. Emergent, then resurgent, then submergent. I guess now he has re-emerged so he can re-surge? Kind of like a torpedo? I am sure all of that would make a nifty PowerPoint presentation.
Jacob wrote:
“Grudge rhymes with fudge!
And when I eat too much fudge
I get a pudge!
And then I can’t budge!”
— Pinkie Pie, “Running of the Leaves”
@ Jacob:
all in all, too much ‘virile’ imagery. (as was the design, all along, I believe — on the part of the christian-shadowy-entity puppetmasters)
Hi everyone! I’ve been reading this blog for a few years, but this is my first comment.
I just wanted to express my appreciation for the thoughts & perspectives on healing that some of you have shared. I lost my 15yo brother to cancer about 3 years ago, so this topic is very personal to me. I struggled with praying for healing, because realistically, it was improbable. I wondered what was wrong with me — didn’t I trust God? didn’t I know he loved my brother? didn’t I believe he was powerful enough to heal? Yes, yes, and yes — but I still couldn’t bring myself to have faith that he definitely would. I felt such guilt over that, as though I personally were the one holding back God’s healing.
As far as I recall, nobody in my life ever directly expressed to me that if I just had enough faith, God would certainly heal. But somehow, having grown up in the church, I absorbed that (false) principle. I wish somebody had told me differently at the time. So thank you to those who have shared their stories & struggles. It helps to know I am not alone!
Jacob wrote:
Those who are really born-again Christians have become that way through “transformed” theology, not reformed theology. Reinventing yourself with external things will never change the inner man. A chameleon is always a chameleon … but those truly in Christ become a new creation – the old man is passed away. Driscoll, to date – whether he be emergent, resurgent, or whatever in his theology – has not demonstrated to the world that he is a new man.
@ scott hendrixson:
If you scroll to the top of this page there is a “Contacting Us” toggle. You can contact Dee and Deb privately there.
@ AKCowdrey:
I am sorry about your brother. That is difficult. I’m glad you have found some relief by reading here. Questioning and guilt can be really hard in a Christian community where you are given scripture quips that are supposed to make you shape up or feel better in short order, otherwise you are frowned upon. It is sad that we have not mastered to mourn with those who mourn.
Well David bless you’re hart there is nuttin wrong with this sitiashion its called if you dunt get cot ain’t none a sin. One time I married my cousin Sharon and ain’t no won found out #rolltide #missingteeth #nationchampionships #marryyourkin #keepitinthefam #jesus #youareforgivin
elastigirl wrote:
Wasn’t worship of the male organ and ejaculation part of all those fertility cults ancient Judaism was always wrestling with?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There have been attempts to revive that religion in recent times.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Priapus_Church
As you would probably guess, most of the members (so to speak) of that church are gay men.
Is Tsei Tan a bot?
@ Debi Calvet:
I believe so, since it is a completely nonsensical comment.
@ AKCowdrey:
Welcome!
Bridget wrote:
Yeah I think so too. My best guess is it was probably a troll of the 4chan or /r/atheism variety who wrote a bot that would automatically leave comments of that nature on articles about Christianity.
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Weird religions are a dime a dozen these days, and any religion where getting laid is a sacrament is going to be popular.
Surprised that one started in Quebec, though.
California has the rep of being the Weird Religion capital of North America.