Heritage Bible Chapel Elders Channel Pharaoh and LET MARIE GO…

"It is with a heavy heart that we as church leaders are writing to confirm that we have removed you from our membership list in accordance with your wishes."

HBC Elders

https://www.facebook.com/CureJoyInc/videos/586178821575396/?pnref=story

UPDATE (1/15/17):  The Sentinel & Enterprise has just published Marie's story!

Irreconcilable differences — with her church

Excellent reporting by Peter Jasinski!


Six months ago Marie Notcheva stopped attending Heritage Bible Chapel (HBC), where she had been a member for over a decade. Nearly four months ago, she resigned her church membership by certified mail. Why? Because church elders were admonishing her to attempt reconciliation with her unrepentant ex-husband who had emotionally and psychologically abused her throughout their lengthy marriage. They divorced last year. To the best of our knowledge, Marie's ex-husband has never been a member of Heritage Bible Chapel, although we understand he does attend there. 

For those not familiar with Marie's story, we recommend the following TWW posts, which were published last month:

Are Pastors at Heritage Bible Chapel Re-Abusing Wives Harmed in Abusive Marriages?

Heritage Bible Chapel Admonishes a Former Member to Repent Or Else…

Why Won't Heritage Bible Chapel LET MARIE GO Peacably?

It's Heritage Bible Chapel's 'Drop Dead Date'; Marie's Father Pleads "Stand Your Ground Marie!"

Since that's quite a bit of information to take in all at once, here's a recap from this post.


Marie married a native Bulgarian, and during their 20 years of marriage she endured terrible emotional and psychological abuse, which became increasingly worse. Here is an excerpt from the previous post:

Desperate to get away from the tyranny, Marie gave up almost all of the assets to which she was entitled in a mediated divorce. On February 1, 2016, Marie left with her car and personal belongings.  

In March 2016, Marie went to her two pastors and told them she had left her ex-husband and that divorce papers had been signed weeks earlier. She explained that she and her ex-husband had already done months of biblical counseling in 2014. Within months after those counseling sessions, her then-husband reverted back to his abusive behavior and attitude towards Marie, not seeing any issues with his behavior. Marie's pastors were surprised by this news regarding her troubled marriage and impending divorce, but seemed understanding and compassionate.

Eight days later, Marie's pastors asked her to meet with them to “answer a few questions”. The meeting turned into a two-hour interrogation. The pastors' minds were already made up before she entered the room that “abuse, even physical abuse, is never biblical grounds for divorce”. (It should be noted that there are MANY biblical counselors and pastors who do not agree with this position.)

In the months that followed, the pastors expressed their desire that Marie and her ex-husband work toward reconciliation. Given that the couple had done biblical counseling two years earlier which did not help, Marie had no desire to reconcile with her abusive ex. 

On September 28, 2016, Marie sent a certified letter to Heritage Bible Chapel resigning her membership. As an American citizen, Marie is free to associate or disassociate with a voluntary organization. There was also a signed return receipt, indicating that the letter had indeed been received by the church. The letter Marie sent was very similar to the sample letter included in a TWW post published almost five years ago. It is entitled How to Mimimize Damage When Resigning from a Mark Driscoll-like Church.

On October 14, 2016, the HBC elders sent Marie an email response, which included the following:

The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these. 

Marie did not respond to this email. Over a month went by, and the elders sent Marie the following correspondence:

[NOTE: We are including the church’s 4-page letter at the end of the post.]


The 'drop dead' date of December 23, 2016 came and went… Then two days ago Marie received the following correspondence from her former church.

January 11, 2017

 

Marie Notcheva

(Address Redacted)

 

Dear Marie,

        It is with a heavy heart that we as church leaders are writing to confirm that we have removed you from our membership list in accordance with your wishes.  While we deeply wish our conversations with you had gone differently and would have resulted in a different outcome, we acknowledge that you desire no further communication from us and we will not be contacting you further.  We will continue to pray for you and trust that God will faithfully care for you as [you] seek to follow Him.

                                                                                           In Christ,

                                                                                           The Elders of Heritage Bible Chapel


So why have HBC elders suddenly stopped pursuing Marie? It appears they have wisely sought legal counsel. The final statement – "We will continue to pray for you and trust that God will faithfully care for you as [you] seek to follow Him"was of particular interest to us. The elders appear to be backtracking on their plan to label Marie as a someone whose faith needs to be restored.

We found it quite interesting that on New Year's Day Kevin Wright, HBC's Pastor of Counseling and Family Ministries, delivered a sermon entitled The Urgency of Restoring One Another. This message was based on James 5:19-20, which states:

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Dee and I have both listened to Kevin Wright's sermon, and we are troubled that he may have had Marie in mind as he preached on this passage from James. After all, he and Tim Cochrell, along with the other HBC elders, have spent a considerable amount of time since last March attempting to 'restore' Marie. 

To hear the sermon for yourself, go here. Kevin's opening remarks are as follows:

Well this morning we're continuing on in a study that I started with many of you who came out to the first unit, this is something that I've been working on for years, uh this is kind of uh my school's dissertation for my doctorate ministry type of thing that I've been working on and as that kinda came into play in my own life, as I began to get to a point in my studies where as like O.K. um the teachers look at you and like what do you want to study? What do you want to do?

Um I really became just burdened that I was like man I really want to encourage the church or to help the church become all that they want to do or all that we're called to do in the One Another passages. And they're like Whoa! That's a lot of information. Like, there's a lot of those. Let's narrow it down, and so through a process we narrowed it down to this idea of confronting one another in sin and and restoring one another. And I remember going through that like man I don't know if I really want to do that because man confrontation is such kind of a taboo thing in our world today. 

And as I began to study and as I began to pray and as I began to seek God's Word I realized Holy Cow! It may be taboo, but it is exactly what we need, it is exactly what we're called to do. It's exactly the importance that God wired us together in such a way as a community, and so these are things that I want you to do. These are godly things.

Unfortunately, we've taken these godly things and sometimes we've spun 'em around and made 'em awful things. Some of the confrontations that I've seen in the church have been really not good. And so God has really stretched me over the last couple years as I've been studying this topic of the need for Christian community and the need to be able to have these difficult yet loving conversations with one another and the need that's there for it.

And so I'll be sharing with you today um from the Book of James Chapter 5 the passage that was read earlier and next week we'll be looking at Galatians Chapter 6 as we continue on this topic.

According to his bio, Kevin is "currently finishing his Doctorate of Ministry in Biblical Counseling degree at SEBTS" (where he also earned his M.Div.). "Kevin is also a certified biblical counselor with the Association fo Certified Biblical Counselors (ACBC). He became 'Pastor of Counseling and Family Ministries' at Heritage Bible Chapel in March 2015.

So in his doctoral studies at SEBTS, Kevin Wright has been focusing on 'confronting one another in sin and restoring one another'? When I heard those words, the sin sniffing that was so prevalent in Sovereign Grace Ministries came to mind.

So what do you think about Kevin's introductory remarks? Do you think he had Marie in mind as he talked about 'confronting one another in sin and restoring one another?' The timing of his sermon is definitely suspect.

Let's assume for a moment that Kevin did have Marie in mind. Well, here's our question:

How can the pastors at one church claim that someone (like Marie) is NOT a believer while the pastors at another church claims she is indeed a Christian, that they are supporting her, and that they totally disagree with the former church's position. Who gets to decide?

What happens when you have two churches with diametrically opposed positions on someone like Marie? Who is right and who holds the keys to the kingdom?

Make no mistake, Marie is our sister in Christ, and we certainly hope that those at her former church will treat her respectfully when they inevitably encounter her in public settings. It will be an excellent test of their Christian character…

Marie has submitted a final statement, and we will let her have the final word.

God bless you Marie! You have demonstrated tremendous strength as you endured a terrible ordeal. So glad we could be of help!


Final Statement by Marie Notcheva (January 13, 2017)

In light of everything that has transpired at HBC in regards to my divorce, I can only say that my experience with leadership there and Tim Cochrell in particular has served at least two positive purposes:

(1) my standing up to them has prompted a number of other women similarly harassed by current and former leadership to speak up; and

(2) the corruption inherent in their authoritarian “do-what-we-say-or-else”, “you’re-here-to-serve-us” style of “leadership” has now been exposed.

I am eternally grateful for the true Christian counsel I have received that has strengthened me through this ordeal, as well as the support of friends, parents, colleagues, and my new church family. Mostly, I am thankful to my Savior for leading me out of the fear and darkness, and reassuring, protecting and providing for me at every turn.

Having been a part of the American evangelical subculture for 26 years (eleven of them at HBC, and six as a certified ‘nouthetic’ counselor), I was well aware of the practice known as ‘church discipline’. However, it was always my understanding that it was enacted with a church member who was actually in sin. In the case of an abusive marriage, presumably it would be the abuser who would be ‘disciplined’ – not the victim who has removed him or herself from the situation. Unfortunately, occasional chats under the guise of ‘counseling’ by clergy who have little to no experience counseling controlling/emotionally abusive individuals (and who clearly do not understand the psychology behind such a mindset) is rarely, if ever, efficacious in bringing about lasting change. Hence the Church’s astonishingly high failure rate in convincing women to return to such situations.

The 4-page letter I received from the HBC leadership four months after I had left their church would have been laughable, had it not been so vindictive. Although it was full of half-truths, misrepresentation of facts, and a couple outright lies (ie. That I had implied I had been the victim of physical abuse, when in fact I had compared the situation with my former church to a certain article by Boz T.), an attorney advised that I not rebut it publicly. To do so would require another 3-4 pages simply to correct all of the fallacies therein, so I will leave it at this: it was evil.

I will say publicly that I do not believe the pastors at HBC or their entourage to be evil men. They are not. However, in many of the cases of ‘pursuit’ and things said to adults choosing to leave their high-control religious group, their actions and statements are evil. Yet I believe they are acting from deceived hearts rather than malice. Much like William Stoughton, Chief Magistrate who presided over the Salem Witch Trials, I believe that they actually believe they are doing a service to God and “keeping the Church pure” by punishing those who have the audacity to stand up for themselves, and refuse to be cowed, manipulated, or silenced. We were admonished to “keep the circle small” and pretend that our “reaction” to that abuse (whether spousal or spiritual) was sinful. Speaking out is not “slander”, a word the HBC pastor loves to use (while simultaneously holding secret meetings about others). Slander, by definition, must be false. Every word I have spoken/written about Tim Cochrell’s sinful and coercive communication with me has been demonstrably true, and I have provided the 28 pages of emails between the two of us as evidence.

The truth always comes out, for those who have ears to hear it. We can only hope and pray that those precious Christ-followers still at Heritage will have the courage and discernment to hear and see it.


Four-page letter from HBC elders to Marie Notcheva


Letter to Marie Notcheva

 

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Letter to Marie Notcheva

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Letter to Marie Notcheva

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Letter to Marie Notcheva

Comments

Heritage Bible Chapel Elders Channel Pharaoh and LET MARIE GO… — 275 Comments

  1. “we acknowledge that you desire no further communication from us and we will not be contacting you further”
    As when TVC finally caved, some people have to be dragged kicking and screaming to do the right thing.

  2. Well, if they are really channeling Pharaoh then Marie needs to watch her back cause they might be sending chariots after her.

  3. That letter literally drips with condescension – no apology; no admission of wrongdoing; no acknowledgement of the 10 months of harassment, or the pain it caused me (and by extension, my children). Just enough back-tracking to cover themselves legally. Well, kudos. Who has 2 thumbs and is moving on? Yeah, that would be me.

    Anyway, Deb, I honestly doubt that Kevin specifically had me in mind. It reads like typical HBC fare to me. I would venture that the HBC leadership definitely has an unhealthy obsession with me (I mean, really? Secret meetings? Chasing a divorced single mom to the death, for 10 straight months? They seriously have NOTHING better to do with their time?) However, that sounded pretty generic and like SOP regarding how they deal with their membership. I guarantee at any given moment there are at least 6-8 more interesting cases for them to ‘confront’ at HBC then me.

    Ironically, that “letter” actually helped my case today in Probate Court. By way of explanation as to why I ever signed away all my rights last year in the divorce, my attorney showed it to both my former husband’s attorney (mentioning he had previously sent a cease and desist order), and in chambers to the judge. When we were on the stand, he said, “Your honor, my client was in a church that teaches women have no rights. She has since left that church.”

    Now, I’ve worked in the system (courtroom interpreter) for many years, so I can say that’s not going to help much, but it least it gives the judge a context (frame of reference). Another attorney called the Separation Agreement “a product of abuse” and assured me any judge worth his bench would see that.

    That hateful letter very beautifully demonstrated the misogynistic mindset to which I was subject. Judge (pre-session): “Wow. Just…..wow.” You don’t hear that much in the legal system.

  4. It seems to me that HBC has repeatedly “spurned those who are trying to minister truth,” and that “they are in a very dangerous place.” It is with great sadness that I write this (sorry, IMMEASURABLE sadness). I am praying that God would lift the blinding effects or their sin.

  5. “According to his bio, Kevin is “currently finishing his Doctorate of Ministry in Biblical Counseling degree at SEBTS” (where he also earned his M.Div.). “Kevin is also a certified biblical counselor with the Association fo Certified Biblical Counselors (ACBC)”

    Uh huh. And both SEBTS and ACBC teach male headship and female subservience in the homes and churches! May every woman this church and the humble Kevin try to control rise up with the courage and wisdom Marie has!

  6. Okay, I have another issue. What does the church mean by “as?” HBC writes:

    “We will continue to pray for you and trust that God will faithfully care for you as [you] seek to follow Him.”

    Reading between the lines, are they praying that God will faithfully care for Marie IF AND WHEN she seeks to follow Him? As in: “Marie, you are still blinded by your sin. We are praying that you will repent (seek to follow God) so that He may restore (faithfully care for) you.

    I have learned to be on the alert for wordsmithing by slippery pastors and theologians.

  7. The dictionary definition of “as” (when used as a conjunction) includes:

    as: at the same time that; when.

    “Marie, we pray and trust that God will faithfully care for you WHEN you seek to follow Him.”

  8. Marie: “I believe that they actually believe they are doing a service to God and “keeping the Church pure””
    Merely corrupt men are not nearly as dangerous as “holy men” leading true believers.

  9. Check out their events on their web site. This morning Sat 14th at 9 they are doing “when and how to confront” and tomorrow morning Sun 15th at 9 “When confrontation and restoration fail”
    Now what is that all about?

  10. Nancy2 wrote:

    “According to his bio, Kevin is “currently finishing his Doctorate of Ministry in Biblical Counseling degree at SEBTS” (where he also earned his M.Div.).

    HONORARY Doctorate, or just tuition/cash up front?

  11. Bill M wrote:

    Marie: “I believe that they actually believe they are doing a service to God and “keeping the Church pure””

    Merely corrupt men are not nearly as dangerous as “holy men” leading true believers.

    Ask any survivor of Cambodia’s Killing Fields.
    Or any non-Daesh-Muslim in Daesh’s Global Caliphate.

  12. “It is with a heavy heart that we as church leaders are writing to confirm that we have removed you from our membership list in accordance with your wishes.”

    HBC Elders

    Is this Christianese for turning you over to the Devil, that your portion may be with Jannes and Jambres and Korah whom the earth swallowed up?

  13. Dale wrote:

    The dictionary definition of “as” (when used as a conjunction) includes:

    as: at the same time that; when.

    “Marie, we pray and trust that God will faithfully care for you WHEN you seek to follow Him.”

    It all depends on what the meaning of “is” is…

  14. I was well aware of the practice known as ‘church discipline’. However, it was always my understanding that it was enacted with a church member who was actually in sin.

    Surprise, surprise!

    You know what? When a person or group of people are given unquestioned authority over others, how can abuse not happen? It’s just simple human nature.

    Church leaders were not meant to have power over the lives of their brothers and sisters in Christ. Jesus said we are not to “lord it over one another” or “exercise authority over” one another “as the gentiles do.” (Matt 20:25) Secondly, as Romans 13:14 puts it, we are all (“leaders” included) supposed to “put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.” Power is one of those big things that the flesh lusts for. Granting themselves this kind of authority over their brethren makes provision for the flesh, to say the least.

  15. “What happens when you have two churches with diametrically opposed positions on someone like Marie? Who is right and who holds the keys to the kingdom?”

    The 9Marx leaders clanking their keys are in the wrong.
    Always.
    Run away as fast as you can.

  16. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    However, that sounded pretty generic and like SOP regarding how they deal with their membership. I guarantee at any given moment there are at least 6-8 more interesting cases for them to ‘confront’ at HBC then me.

    Not surprised – this is a common tactic among abusive groups, especially religious ones. I spent some time at SBTS a few years back, and was appalled by the culture. NO GOSPEL, plenty of pride, arrogance, and “lording it over” others. Celebrity culture and worship. I actually stopped attending because I couldn’t ethically justify giving them more money, and this from someone who is an avowed capitalist! Not surprised that that kind of culture could produce boy-men tin-horn dictators like this.

  17. “I will say publicly that I do not believe the pastors at HBC or their entourage to be evil men. They are not. However, in many of the cases of ‘pursuit’ and things said to adults choosing to leave their high-control religious group, their actions and statements are evil. Yet I believe they are acting from deceived hearts rather than malice.”

    I will admit, I don’t understand this at all. I don’t know how we divorce evil actions and statements from the person who does them.

    But I am glad it is over and I pray your courage encourages others to free themselves from these high control situations.

  18. Where is there any compassion for a woman who has put up with an abusive man for decades? It is a relentless misery to be married to someone who is unloving towards you -speaking from experience- how about a bit of kindness & a recognition that the marriage itself may have sucked out so many resources she is unable to climb the mountain of ‘righteousness’ set before her? Jeez, I have had some symptoms of serious depression & PTSD after ‘just’ 10 years of serious emotional neglect & abuse. It’s all law with these guys.

  19. When I read through the 4 page letter, my thought was these guys have way too much time on their hands to micromanage the lives of people THEY think are in ‘sin’. Signed by 5 of them to gang up on you showing their power. Is this what normal people do with their time?

    These people need real jobs and to worry about their own families.

    I can remember back when the concept of “church discipline” was first introduced and promoted by the YRR on SBC blogs led by Mohler and Dever followers. It was positioned as a way to clean up church rolls. Truth in numbers reporting. The SBC passed a resolution on that definition of church discipline! It was very benign and a lot of people signed on. Mohler and Dever were strategizing for an eventual bait and switch. As in, ‘get them agreeing to the concept of church discipline by defining it as truth in numbers’. Deception. Just like so much of their movement practices. It has always been about control but that would not sell well. I think we are looking at an institutionalized narcissistic phenomenon.

  20. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It all depends on what the meaning of “is” is…

    In the original context, the issue was whether the use of “is” meant presently or ever in the past. The question was a trick question, intended to trap the person being asked. The answer was “no” if the present tense was meant, and “yes” if it meant “ever in the past”. So whatever a person answered it could be considered a false answer.

  21. @ Irish Lass:

    Thanks for pointing out these teaching sessions at the church. They are obviously a continuation of that New Year's Day sermon preached by Kevin Wright, who is most likely teaching these sessions. After all, this is what he concentrated on for his doctorate at SEBTS. 🙁

  22. Irish Lass wrote:

    Check out their events on their web site. This morning Sat 14th at 9 they are doing “when and how to confront” and tomorrow morning Sun 15th at 9 “When confrontation and restoration fail”
    Now what is that all about?

    I see that the 9:00 session follows a Men’s Breakfast and Bible study that began at 7:30. Wonder whether any women are attending the “When and How to Confront” teaching going on now.

  23. “… he may have had Marie in mind as he preached on this passage …”

    Sure he did! The timing is perfect. While Marie’s situation is fresh on the congregation’s mind, his words send a clear warning to other members who may be considering walking away, while covering HBC practices under a cloak of distorted Scripture. When a pastor preaches “he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death” in the context of what has happened at HBC, he is abusively using Scripture as a hammer to beat folks into submission. His message is control disguised as restoration.

    Thanks to Marie, and the certain legal opinion given to HBC leadership, other members ensnared by this patriarchal system can now submit their own letters of resignation and exit without fear to join the free Church of Jesus Christ where love prevails, rather than illegitimate authority over their souls. For HBC members who have tuned into this piece and find themselves sitting on the fence, now is the right time to get off of it and walk.

    As a side note, when a preacher introduces his sermon with a string of “uh” and “um”, he is not certain about what he is getting ready to say. Many of these preacher boys are simply parroting what they think the New Calvinist big dogs would want them to say about church authority and complementarity, without firmly believing it themselves. Preacher boys never become men of God until they are set free of teachings and traditions of men which misrepresent the character of God. My prayer is that HBC pastors Cochrell and Wright will come to their right spiritual mind in this regard so that God can truly use them in the days ahead. As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I am so sorry that our seminaries indoctrinated them to believe this way.

  24. I should have mentioned in this post, as I did in our first post on Marie's story, that Dee called Tim Cochrell and asked him whether this was his hill to die on. That conversation took place days before we ever wrote one word about Marie's ordeal.

  25. Max wrote:

    As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I am so sorry that our seminaries indoctrinated them to believe this way.

    Me too! It is literally destroying the Southern Baptist Convention, church by church. These guys are not pastors, they are Neo-Cal robots.

  26. Deb wrote:

    I see that the 9:00 session follows a Men’s Breakfast and Bible study that began at 7:30. Wonder whether any women are attending the “When and How to Confront” teaching going on now.

    Why would women attend? True biblical women DO NOT confront, they submit.

  27. “Your church never tried to force you to return to your abuser but you claimed we had.”

    I’m still not sure how to even react to this.

  28. Deb wrote:

    Max wrote:

    As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I am so sorry that our seminaries indoctrinated them to believe this way.

    Me too! It is literally destroying the Southern Baptist Convention, church by church. These guys are not pastors, they are Neo-Cal robots.

    The wonderful SBC that I knew is gone and has been replaced by monsters attempting to lead their churches.

  29. Beakerj wrote:

    Where is there any compassion for a woman who has put up with an abusive man for decades?

    Bah! Most of these men went to "school" at SBTS and/or SEBTS. Kevin Wright is getting a counseling degree through ACBC. All of those places teach that divorce is only permissible in cases of adultery or abandonment, and male headship. Why would they show any compassion to a mere woman in Marie's situation ……. or worse?

  30. Note they carefully said they would not longer contact her. They finally got the message that they were in legal trouble. Some attorney convinced them to cut it out or be willing to face a trial which would not have been pleasant nor end up in their favor.

    I am deeply concerned about a church which would continue to emotionally abuse a woman who has already been abused at home.

    There were no apologies so one can assume that they think they are doing God’s work. Caveat Emptor-let the buyer beware. Go to this church and face up that you. may be on the receiving end of the *learned* theology. This. story outlines the issues. Do not think you will be treated any differently.

  31. I am a tad confused… growing up/trained in an IFB mindset, which while different, in practice is very similar to this NeoCal crowd, I was taught to be a "Soldier for Christ" put on the armor, etc, for what is Biblical… in this case, they caved in…. the NeoCal/ 9 Marks type teach the are the true way, but when it comes to potential legal action, as in this case, they turn tail and run… if they really acted on what they say, they would have carried through on their public discipline/excommunication of Marie.. To me, they either really do not believe the stuff they spew out, or they are crumple under legal pressure, which is the opposite of being willing to "take a stand for Christ"

  32. P.S.

    After I pushed the post button, the Sunday school song, "Stand up, stand up for Jesus, ye soldier of the cross"… came to mind… clearly HBC leaders "sat down"!

  33. NJ wrote:

    “Your church never tried to force you to return to your abuser but you claimed we had.”
    I’m still not sure how to even react to this.

    I should have posted one of the many, many coercive emails from Cochrell. His email to me of May 5, 2016 used the word “reconcile” or “reconciliation” 14 times in 3 paragraphs. There was also mention of “Matthew 18 process”, which in context was a veiled threat.

    As of that point, he had been trying to force me to return (meetings, phone calls, emails) for just under 2 months.

    Someone needs to remind Cochrell that lying is a sin.

  34. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    To me, they either really do not believe the stuff they spew out, or they are crumple under legal pressure

    Maybe both? If they had continued to "pursue" Marie, what would the legal ramifications and the negative publicity have done to their holy reputations, both inside and outside of the church?

  35. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    when it comes to potential legal action, as in this case, they turn tail and run… if they really acted on what they say, they would have carried through on their public discipline/excommunication

    Church membership covenants are like employee no-compete contracts. They are both designed to intimidate and control, but have no legal teeth. Just as an employee has a right to use his training to seek employment elsewhere, a church member need not fear exiting an abusive authoritarian church. Believers are controlled by the Spirit, not law. You have been set free in Christ; exercise your freedom! New Calvinism, under the guise of grace, is more about law than love.

  36. Deb wrote:

    Dee called Tim Cochrell and asked him whether this was his hill to die on

    I am hoping that a vast army of young, restless and reformed will come to the realization in this new year that New Calvinism is not a hill to die on.

  37. Deb wrote:

    Wonder whether any women are attending the “When and How to Confront” teaching going on now.

    No, the poor women of that church are probably wondering about the next onslaught of illegitimate authority which will confront them following this teaching. While this series of TWW articles have dealt with the abuse of a wife, followed by the abuse of her church, the truth of the matter is all the women at HBC are suffering abuse!

  38. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    To me, they either really do not believe the stuff they spew out, or they are crumple under legal pressure, which is the opposite of beinging willing to “take a stand for Christ”

    The fact that they are not taking any action against Marie’s ex, including pushing him into signing a covenant, tells me much the same.

    I don’t think this has anything to do with the Bible, and has everything to do with making an example of women not being obedient to men.

  39. “While we deeply wish our conversations with you had gone differently and would have resulted in a different outcome…”

    This is evidence that they did not change their mind. If they had, they would have said so. No, this means they still believe they are right and Marie is wrong, and that the real problem is she never came around to seeing it their way.

  40. “Heritage Bible Chapel Elders Channel Pharaoh and LET MARIE GO…”

    Moses had to make ten trips to persuade Pharaoh to release the ill-treated Israelites from slavery. After a while, even a New Calvinist will get it through his thick theology to drop the un-Biblical bondage over others. When the watchmen sound an alarm, these guys better start paying attention, lest God …

  41. Humility seems to be missing in this whole scenario. It is why I strongly dislike the whole “call your brother/sister out” sin-quest ministries. That sort of “ministry” is cat-nip to power-hungry, egoists.

    It shouldn’t have taken a consultation with their lawyers for these pastors to let Marie go. Why not actually believe in the Holy Spirit and let go? And–gasp!–maybe one is wrong in the interpretation of the situation?! Both those approaches would require humility in practice, though.

  42. As I’ve said before many times on this blog, if you start sounding like Scientology, you’re in a bad place. Here’s what the church said to Marie:

    The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.

    That’s a lot like Scientology telling a Sea Org member: “You have to ‘route out properly’ before you can leave.” It’s why people like Marc Headley and Ron and Becky Miscavige had to basically escape Gold Base in Southern California. You could never “route out properly.”

  43. @ Ken F:
    I just came across this 9Marx mailbag (I’ve been very negligent keeping up on them) and see that you or another Ken F were able to interact with Mr Leeman in the comments. https://9marks.org/mailbag/43/
    I found his thoughts on relating to excommunicated members a tad confusing. It seems that although members who’ve stopped attending aren’t allowed to resign without permission, excommunicated members are free to keep attending.

  44. Cat-nip for power hungry egoists! I love it, and can think of several situation in the heathen, secular “world” were i will use that phrase!
    My IFB, while not saying “keys”, sure thought they owned the “keys” to heaven, and they would NOT agree will all the Neo-Cal positions. I would love to lock them in a room an watch them “fight” over who has the “keys” to get out and get into heaven! Always fun to watch two power hungry people got at each other over power!!

    Divorce Minister wrote:

    Humility seems to be missing in this whole scenario. It is why I strongly dislike the whole “call your brother/sister out” sin-quest ministries. That sort of “ministry” is cat-nip to power-hungry, egoists.
    It shouldn’t have taken a consultation with their lawyers for these pastors to let Marie go. Why not actually believe in the Holy Spirit and let go? And–gasp!–maybe one is wrong in the interpretation of the situation?! Both those approaches would require humility in practice, though.

  45. You don’t need to buy into dispensational end times teaching to enjoy and benefit and get a bit of baptistic freedom refresher from the old Chuck Swindoll book ” The Grace Awakening.” Pair it with “The Church Awakening” and walk don’t run from these cults.

  46. dee wrote:

    Note they carefully said they would not longer contact her. They finally got the message that they were in legal trouble. Some attorney convinced them to cut it out or be willing to face a trial which would not have been pleasant nor end up in their favor.
    I am deeply concerned about a church which would continue to emotionally abuse a woman who has already been abused at home.
    There were no apologies so one can assume that they think they are doing God’s work. Caveat Emptor-let the buyer beware. Go to this church and face up that you. may be on the receiving end of the *learned* theology. This. story outlines the issues. Do not think you will be treated any differently.

    It’s not just that those attending may end up as victims themselves, but by continuing to attend in silence, you are voting with your presence and your pocketbook for the current leadership. To quote Elie Wiesel, Holocaust survivor: “We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”

  47. Dave A A wrote:

    https://9marks.org/mailbag/43/ … I found his thoughts on relating to excommunicated members a tad confusing.

    Well, I found his following words a tad disturbing: “… the church possesses a declarative authority of binding and loosing …”. “Binding and loosing” really means forbidding and permitting. Taken from a Jewish phrase, it implies that church leaders have indisputable authority over those under their control – to forbid or permit. You can’t question their teaching or decisions … to do so, would result in shunning and/or excommunication. It’s taking Old Testament law and adapting it to New Calvinist belief and practice. It’s law, pure and simple, not Grace.

  48. The second I saw “ACBC,” I did not even have to read any further, I knew. I’m waiting patiently for this anti-biblical movement to blow up into pieces and dissipate, nonsense that it is. Here’s just another example of where its “godly” methods (man-made nonsense, in truth) have messed up yet another life; another victim; another mess it has left behind.
    Please expose this thing called ACBC; it has no place among believers.

    Well, Marie, time to put these monsters behind you for good. Forward now!

  49. Best ending this story could have hoped for. an inspiration to those who think they are trapped, a warning to church seekers, and a call for reform.
    I don’t think we’ve seen the last of this behavior but as mentioned before, sunshine is the best disinfectant. Thanks for sharing.

  50. Boston Lady wrote:

    The second I saw “ACBC,” I did not even have to read any further, I knew. I’m waiting patiently for this anti-biblical movement to blow up into pieces and dissipate, nonsense that it is. Here’s just another example of where its “godly” methods (man-made nonsense, in truth) have messed up yet another life; another victim; another mess it has left behind.
    Please expose this thing called ACBC; it has no place among believers.
    Well, Marie, time to put these monsters behind you for good. Forward now!

    Thank you Boston Lady…..but I have to say, as a former biblical counselor (my certification was under INS, which is ever more conservative than ACBC), not everything about ACBC is bad and many, many of their counselors are good and godly people giving counsel that is, indeed, in line with Scripture. Others, however, (especially those less experienced) do FAR more harm than good. So as is the case with many things, it’s not all black and white…there is a spectrum there.

    Ironically, a number of ACBC folks knew about what Tim & Co. were doing to me and were horrified. His “abuse is never grounds for divorce” stance is not even in line with ACBC teaching (read Rick Thomas’ excellent writing on the subject, for example). Of course, Tim is not actually a biblical counselor but Kevin is, and he was backing Tim up. So I want to make it clear that ACBC was NOT endorsing this debacle.

    On the other hand, there was one ACBC person who knew about the situation and not only supported Tim’s pursuit of me, but sent me the most hateful, accusatory email I have received to date. Ultimate irony? It came from a woman.

  51. dee wrote:

    There were no apologies so one can assume that they think they are doing God’s work.

    That is a big difference between HBC Marie and the abuse of Karen from TVC. At least in Karen’s case there was an apology and the debate raged whether it amounted to repentance. Were they sorry it blew up in their face or were they truly contrite? Would the same abuse be repeated at TVC?

    With HBC the question is whether they were even chastened. While they have finally let go of Marie they did so without communicating any sense of humility. Without a simple “I’m sorry” for their abusive actions there remains a high likelihood for future abuse as there is no visible sign of future restraint. If I were in the church insurance business I would drop HBC as an insured.

  52. “According to his bio, Kevin is “currently finishing his Doctorate of Ministry in Biblical Counseling degree at SEBTS” (where he also earned his M.Div.).”

    “Well this morning we’re continuing on in a study that I started with many of you who came out to the first unit, this is something that I’ve been working on for years, uh this is kind of uh my school’s dissertation for my doctorate ministry type of thing ….. the teachers look at you and like what do you want to study? What do you want to do?

    … and so through a process we narrowed it down to this idea of confronting one another in sin and and restoring one another…”–Kevin
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    so, this is how I read all this:

    1) doctorate, eh…. totally devalues the word doctorate and those golden letters PhD. seems like cheating to me.

    2) using human lives to justify his ‘dissertation’.

    utterly revolting, all of it.

  53. @ Dave A A:
    That was me. I make comments there every now and then. But the dialogues on the 9Marks comments section are not very interesting. They shut down meaningful exchange of ideas.

  54. @ dee:

    “There were no apologies so one can assume that they think they are doing God’s work.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    kevin can’t apologize — it would nullify his dissertation.

  55. Lydia wrote:

    It has always been about control but that would not sell well. I think we are looking at an institutionalized narcissistic phenomenon.

    I really think you have described the phenomenon very well. The church as personal kingdom.

  56. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    On the other hand, there was one ACBC person who knew about the situation and not only supported Tim’s pursuit of me, but sent me the most hateful, accusatory email I have received to date. Ultimate irony? It came from a woman.

    Marie, thanks so much for replying personally. The wonderful thing that I did read in your response is that you are a former biblical counselor. I truly hope you are now able to leave these things behind you. With ACBC, I stand my ground. It’s a franchise that poses. However, what’s important now is that you live out your freedom to its fullest. Remember, when Jesus sets us free, we are free indeed.
    Love and blessings!

  57. Lydia wrote:

    I will admit, I don’t understand this at all. I don’t know how we divorce evil actions and statements from the person who does them.

    Honest comment that most of us could make. The only answer must be ‘grace’. I remember that for some Christian people, it was possible …. so it can be done:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jup3MVIyasM

  58. The three or four churches I have been in to date have exercised church discipline for serious sin (adultery, embezzlement of church funds, publicly sowing discord in the church). However, cases have always been handled so much more differently than 9Marks. If the congregant doesn’t respond, they are allowed to leave. Usually, the person in question rescinds their own membership, or the church does it if they haven’t attended for a year. The reconciliation door is always open. There isn’t the “we will control you until you submit or die” factor. My church went through some big pastoral issues half a decade ago. We had one couple that wasn’t just outspoken; they were on a campaign to oust all of the leadership. They were warned by the elders, and they left. Fast forward five years-they have recently returned and are reconnecting. If they want to be members, they will need to join again, but no groveling or licking of boots has been requited. True forgiveness and reconciliation at work, I think.

  59. Boston Lady wrote:

    Please expose this thing called ACBC; it has no place among believers.

    Looks like we have another important topic to investigate. Is this 'Nouthetic Counseling 2.0'?

  60. Deb wrote:

    Is this ‘Nouthetic Counseling 2.0’?

    Well, as a matter of fact, it is!

    https://biblicalcounseling.com/about/

    Who is ACBC?

    In 1976 Dr. Jay Adams founded the National Association of Nouthetic Counselors (NANC) with the desire that the organization and its rigorous certification process would become the backbone of the biblical counseling movement. Today the organization is now known as the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors (ACBC) and is the oldest and largest biblical counseling organization in the world. The training and certification of ACBC counselors is recognized worldwide with over 1,300 counselors in 29 countries that speak 27 languages with these numbers growing yearly. ACBC also has 60 certified training centers ranging from seminaries to churches.

  61. ishy wrote:

    I don’t think this has anything to do with the Bible, and has everything to do with making an example of women not being obedient to men.

    Male authority is a house of cards. If you let a woman leave her husband because of physical abuse, then pretty soon others will want to leave for verbal abuse. And then what about sins “lesser” than abuse? Pretty soon women will expect to call their husbands out on any sin and of course you can’t have that.

    The male authority that these churches practice ensures control stays in the hands of those with penises, but also it prevents them from having to deal with the sin in their lives. Their unwillingness to let their wives, who know them best, point out their sin is, I believe, a big motivation. Why work on your own heart and salvation when you can just focus on your wife’s sins?

  62. i find this whole thing about exposing sin and finding sin in other’s lives disturbing. When I point the finger at someone else, I have 3 pointing back at me (my mom always used to tell me this). Why are people so concerned about other people’s “sin”? Shouldn’t we be more concerned about their walk with Christ at a christian, and not pointing out all their faults? We should be praying with people who have a problem, not bashing them. Where is the caring in all of this that went on with Marie and others like her. Where is the empathy? It’s not there. More and more of this sounds like Scientology or other so called religions that are more concerned about your sins and how you are harming the “church” than they are about your soul. What happened to Marie, could have happened to any of us, or situations like this. HBC needs a big wake up call, or as we say in my neck of the woods, “a come to Jesus meeting”. Marie isn’t the one that needs to repent. She has done nothing wrong. I hope HBC is reading these blogs. They need to see how strangers are standing by Marie when they aren’t and wouldn’t.

  63. “Are you faithfully Protestant?” Is the name of the 2017 ACBC conference and below is their main theme.

    “It takes a commitment to biblical counseling to restore the truths of Scripture, Jesus, grace, and faith to counseling practice so that broken people would give glory to God alone. This commitment is what is required to be faithfully protestant.”

    Anyone besides me have a problem with this? I mean, it’s like saying anyone who is not on board with what they claim about Biblical counseling is not a faithful Protestant!

  64. Harley wrote:

    What happened to Marie, could have happened to any of us, or situations like this.

    A situation like this can be much worse, even deadly, for women who do not have the knowledge and courage to take a stand, the way Marie did!

  65. Kemi wrote:

    The male authority that these churches practice ensures control stays in the hands of those with penises, but also it prevents them from having to deal with the sin in their lives. Their unwillingness to let their wives, who know them best, point out their sin is, I believe, a big motivation. Why work on your own heart and salvation when you can just focus on your wife’s sins?

    Now I’m wondering how much of their pressure was Kevin wanting a prime, likely very edited example for his doctoral dissertation. And of course, it couldn’t be of a man because what man in their congregation would actually want to change? Men go to neo-Calvinist churches to be told that God lets them do whatever they want.

  66. Kemi wrote:

    The male authority that these churches practice ensures control stays in the hands of those with penises, but also it prevents them from having to deal with the sin in their lives.

    well, as the good says:
    ‘ if thine eye offend thee ……’

    Origen took this verse literally and off came the offending organ that ‘had caused him to sin’
    I don’t think too many Christian men are going to follow Origen’s example ….. they likely think of such a thing as Origenal Sin, seeing that their whole ‘male-headship’ thing goes down the tubes when that organ is removed …. 🙂

  67. Marie:

    Congratulations on receiving a letter that resolves the issues with your former church and which actually confirms your position in this matter.

    We do not know one another, but I wish you the best as you move forward. I am sorry that your marriage was so abusive. I know that the Lord will continue to work in your life and to heal you.

    Also, I know that God is going to use you in a great ways in the lives of others.

  68. Bridget wrote:

    “Are you faithfully Protestant?” Is the name of the 2017 ACBC conference and below is their main theme.
    “It takes a commitment to biblical counseling to restore the truths of Scripture, Jesus, grace, and faith to counseling practice so that broken people would give glory to God alone. This commitment is what is required to be faithfully protestant.”

    Yes, I have a huge problem with that, not just you!

    “I mean, it’s like saying anyone who is not on board with what they claim about Biblical counseling is not a faithful Protestant!”

    Yes, there it is, and vice versa! And what else goes with the territory? Male dominance? And some dodgy, dodgy man-made doctrine. I wish people would connect the HUGE dots that are right in front of their eyes regarding this “biblical” movement ACBC. If it were a snake, it would bite you in the face twice. And then in the back, thrice.

    Take care, Bridget.

  69. @ Bridget:

    “”It takes a commitment to biblical counseling to restore the truths of Scripture, Jesus, grace, and faith to counseling practice so that broken people would give glory to God alone. This commitment is what is required to be faithfully protestant.”

    Anyone besides me have a problem with this?”
    +++++++++++++++

    yeah. who made them the arbiters of ‘faithful protestantism’?

    and, the counseling practice has been devoid of ‘the truths of Scripture, Jesus, grace, and faith’? really? just how esoteric can these truths be?

    i get the feeling these “truths” amount to manufactured rigmarole contortions for living. apparently, only the spiritually elite know about the hidden 72 sins one must repent of with one foot behind your head while hopping on the other foot and clapping 3 times.

    “broken people giving glory to God alone” — first of all, what’s glory and how is it that we can give it?

    second of all, no joy allowed in self-esteem and -value? not even for having been fearfully and wonderfully made? no kudos to oneself for hard work and dedication? or any other accomplishment? or just feeling good about oneself being in one’s own skin? nope, not allowed?

  70. NJ wrote:

    “Your church never tried to force you to return to your abuser but you claimed we had.”

    I’m still not sure how to even react to this.

    I guess they think that ‘separation with the goal of getting back together’ is not trying to make you get back together? Not logical.

    Also, it bugs me how these men never seem to think enough time has passed. There is literally no amount of time to ‘wait and see if he changes’ that would be enough for them.

    And have they provided any explanation at all why he isn’t in trouble? Because he didn’t try to leave?

  71. elastigirl wrote:

    @ dee:

    “There were no apologies so one can assume that they think they are doing God’s work.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    kevin can’t apologize — it would nullify his dissertation.

    How perfect to see it in black and white.

  72. Harley wrote:

    i find this whole thing about exposing sin and finding sin in other’s lives disturbing.

    Me too. All this ‘sin sin sin’ stuff. I think mostly people should back off unless it’s something serious, ala ‘stuff even the pagans think is vile’. Excepting close friends and family, who can call you out on things that are affecting them (like say a wife).

  73. Bridget wrote:

    Anyone besides me have a problem with this?

    Yes. And if you think this is bad, wait till you read this about the Calvinist confessions posted recently by Founders: http://founders.org/2017/01/09/a-new-year-for-old-confessions/

    Take some time to schedule out the next year to work your way through the confession not only thoughtfully, but devotionally. What you are reading are not mere propositions, but presentations of life-giving truths that will not only shape your mind but your heart.

    They almost elevate their confessions and doctrines to the level of deity. This movement has run amok.

  74. Christiane wrote:

    I don’t think too many Christian men are going to follow Origen’s example

    Any guesses as to why Origen was deemed a heretic? It was not because of his plumbing modification. It was because he taught the Eternal Subordination of the Son. So yes, too many Christians are following his example.

  75. Christiane wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I will admit, I don’t understand this at all. I don’t know how we divorce evil actions and statements from the person who does them.

    Honest comment that most of us could make. The only answer must be ‘grace’. I remember that for some Christian people, it was possible …. so it can be done:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jup3MVIyasM

    Grace is overlooking perpetual evil deeds done to others in the Name of Christ? I think not.

  76. Abi Miah wrote:

    It’s not just that those attending may end up as victims themselves, but by continuing to attend in silence, you are voting with your presence and your pocketbook for the current leadership. To quote Elie Wiesel, Holocaust survivor: “We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”

    I agree with this. It’s how corrupt institutions stay in business and corrupt.

  77. Bridget wrote:

    Anyone besides me have a problem with this? I mean, it’s like saying anyone who is not on board with what they claim about Biblical counseling is not a faithful Protestant!

    Why would anyone want to be a “faithful” Protestant? Why not a faithful follower of Christ? They seem to think they are one and the same.

  78. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    hmmmm. could be. but also, people enjoy being the agent of help to other people and being industrious. there’s great satisfaction in that. and in being God’s agent.

    being privy to all God’s answers for all the hurting people who are lining up with a wait list must be a huge rush.

  79. Bridget wrote:

    “It takes a commitment to biblical counseling to restore the truths of Scripture, Jesus, grace, and faith to counseling practice so that broken people would give glory to God alone. This commitment is what is required to be faithfully protestant.”

    This also implies that all problems are sin problems resulting from disobedience to the “truth”. There’s little to no training in identifying mental illnesses

    BTW, when I first started looking at mission agencies while I worked at NAMB, people there told me not to admit to any counseling if I applied to IMB. They said it implied you had “sin issues” to the primarily fundamentalist trustees. At the time, the only counseling I had received was grief counseling after my mother died as a teenager, but apparently that was not okay.

    So, I guess pretending like you were not a sinner was better than admitting you had problems once in awhile.

    Now the SBC wants everyone to go through forced “counseling” to make sure you know your place as a peon.

    Boy, am I glad I’m not Southern Baptist anymore!

  80. ishy wrote:

    Boy, am I glad I’m not Southern Baptist anymore!

    I’m living on borrowed time as a Southern Baptist Pastor. My church people and I work well together as I love them and try to serve them the best I know how, but I would not give you 2 pennies for the 2000 BF&M, I no longer support the Lottie Moon or Annie Armstrong offerings.

  81. @ Lea:

    well, it seems to me that all these new buzzword doctrines marketed all over the place — all these secondary, tertiary, quaternery, quinary issues/and-or inventions (church discipline, complementarianism, gender roles, etc.) — are simply “New! And Improved!” attention-getters. Just like on a box of pancake mix.

    The “newly discovered angle” for self-promotion. To make a name for themselves. Just like so many celebrity exercise videos and lifestyle/cookbooks.

    The purveyors of all these pet doctrines have staked their reputation, their careers, and their income on them. They have invested so much, including social media branding, there is no way they can recant now without a shattering loss.

    such a crazy conflict of interests for people who are supposed to be all about honesty, integrity, and what is right and good.

    talk about nincompoops. (& that’s much more polite than they deserve)

  82. Max wrote:

    when a preacher introduces his sermon with a string of “uh” and “um”, he is not certain about what he is getting ready to say.

    I agree, and also hear something else. His meaning is somewhat understandable when heard, but utter nonsense when written, even if the “uh” and “um” are removed.

    I think he’s trying to “relate” to his audience through such casual language, and to demonstrate humility as he invites the audience into his ivory tower experience (which he might think too intimidating for the pewpeons). Maybe he thinks that sounding educated would turn people off. Actually, maybe they could understand him better, especially if they actually read his words.

  83. ishy wrote:

    Boy, am I glad I’m not Southern Baptist anymore!

    I can understand that sentiment! I do want to emphasize, though, that the issues we often discuss here are not simply a Baptist or Neo-Calvinist problem. These issues are prevelant in many churches including Presbyterian, non-denominational, Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, etc. The Biblical Counseling may not be found in all of the institutions, but the authoritarian/heirarchial issues are present where people desire power.

  84. @ Christiane:
    Here is a quote from the link listed

    “Biblical counseling, as it’s taught here at Southwestern, is based upon a number of convictions, but one of the primary convictions is our belief that the Bible is sufficient for the counseling task,” Babler explained. “It’s not the Bible plus something else; the Bible is sufficient for the counseling task.”
    Really??? I did not known that the Bible talks about clinical depression, bipolar disorder, and other quantifiable conditions, that in some cases csn be trared with persciptiin drugs and really help people! They later talk about the “DNA” of the church… what Bible talks about all this??? I want one… and PS, there is very good evidence that some mental disorders are genetic.. ie .. in your DNA!!

  85. Dave A A wrote:

    I just came across this 9Marx mailbag (I’ve been very negligent keeping up on them) and see that you or another Ken F were able to interact with Mr Leeman in the comments.

    Comments? I thought they excommunicated comments from the 9Marks blog. Was this the blog where Jonathan said that 9Marks policy on church membership is basically the Biblical approach to membership and then proceeded to describe how each one of the 9 Marks are Biblical even though they are not actually in the Bible?

    IMO, the elders at HBC did what the ELDERS at The Village did with Karen Hinckley. They backed down because they were wrong, but of course they did not admit that they were wrong even though it was obvious to everyone else. This was also very similar to what happened with Mahaney fleeing church discipline to Dever at Capitol Hill, Mark Driscoll being sheltered until the last possible moment at Acts29, and on and on and on.

    Most recently it happened at ETS with Grudem and Ware suddenly having an epiphany in San Antonio about the doctrine of the Eternal Generation of the Son, and they are now able to affirm it! It just never, ever occurred to them prior to the Trinity kerfuffle over the summer to consider the matter! Rules and Repentance are for the Little People. The Big and Important People get to pretend It Never Happened and Shame On You For Mentioning It.

  86. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    Here is a quote from the link listed

    “Biblical counseling, as it’s taught here at Southwestern, is based upon a number of convictions, but one of the primary convictions is our belief that the Bible is sufficient for the counseling task,” Babler explained. “It’s not the Bible plus something else; the Bible is sufficient for the counseling task.”
    Really??? I did not known that the Bible talks about clinical depression, bipolar disorder, and other quantifiable conditions, that in some cases csn be trared with persciptiin drugs and really help people! They later talk about the “DNA” of the church… what Bible talks about all this??? I want one… and PS, there is very good evidence that some mental disorders are genetic.. ie .. in your DNA!!

    How many people’s lives are these “pastors” going to destroy with their counseling approach?

  87. Gram3 wrote:

    Comments? I thought they excommunicated comments from the 9Marks blog.

    Yes. They disabled comments for all posts except for the mailbag. And yes, it is the site focused on discipline.

  88. mot wrote:

    How many people’s lives are these “pastors” going to destroy with their counseling approach?

    As many as possible.

  89. Ken F wrote:

    mot wrote:

    How many people’s lives are these “pastors” going to destroy with their counseling approach?

    As many as possible.

    That is what is so sad! The counseling these “pastors” are giving is not counseling IMO.

  90. @ Ken F:
    Hopefully you and Dave AA and Todd Wilhelm will keep us informed of what the KingdomKeysKops are up to. We must try to keep a sense of humor about this because it is clear that they take everything (especially themselves) way too seriously.

  91. Gram3 wrote:

    Hopefully you and Dave AA and Todd Wilhelm will keep us informed of what the KingdomKeysKops are up to.

    I check the sites of the usual suspects pretty much daily. The amount of info they collectively pump out daily is mind-numbing. I think their strategy is to dumb down their followers. TGC posts about six to eight new articles every day but Sunday. Almost the same with Piper’s site. It’s mostly stupid advice like “pray before writing a sermon” or what to think about a particular topic. Founders used to post new info every few weeks, but they recently picked up their game by posting new info every few days.

    RightNow Media is a new wrinkle to this (my SBC church recently signed up for it). They don’t seem to be outright Calvinist because I can find some non-Calvinist material on their site, but not much. The New-Calvinists have posted so much to the web in the last few years that it’s not surprising to find it dominating this site. It’s being billed as the Christian Netflix.

  92. Bridget wrote:

    the authoritarian/heirarchial issues are present where people desire power.

    So true. Repeating what has been said so many times here, Jesus said it should not be so among his disciples who should be marked out by their love and service and humility toward one another.

  93. Deb wrote:

    Irish Lass wrote:

    Check out their events on their web site. This morning Sat 14th at 9 they are doing “when and how to confront” and tomorrow morning Sun 15th at 9 “When confrontation and restoration fail”
    Now what is that all about?

    I see that the 9:00 session follows a Men’s Breakfast and Bible study that began at 7:30. Wonder whether any women are attending the “When and How to Confront” teaching going on now.

    Women attending? I seriously doubt it. Since when are women in their insular environment permitted to confront anything? That’s a man’s job. Besides, it might give some uppity women the idea that they can confront their pastors/elders regarding their attempts at mind control and spiritual manipulation. Can’t have any of that. Women need to know their place, as the Bayly Brothers & those like them are fond of reminding folks.

  94. From 2005, not a peep about “nouthetic” but that is what the shift was all about:

    http://www.bpnews.net/20152/southern-seminary-launches-new-vision-for-biblical-counseling

    “Southern Seminary Launches New Vision for Biblical Counseling February 15, 2005

    “The new vision was approved overwhelmingly by the faculty on Feb. 2, distinguishing the seminary’s counseling philosophy from its former ‘pastoral care’ model”

    “The ramifications of this course correction will be felt in congregations throughout the Southern Baptist Convention and the evangelical world.”

    “Southern has appointed two new professors to help carry out its renewed vision of biblical counseling: Stuart Scott will serve as professor of biblical counseling at both the seminary and in its undergraduate program, Boyce College, while Randy Stinson will serve as assistant professor of gender and family studies. Currently, Scott is professor of biblical counseling at The Master’s Seminary in Sun Valley, Calif., and is a former pastor of counseling at Grace Community Church, where he served under Pastor John MacArthur. He is the author of the recent book ‘The Exemplary Husband: A Biblical Perspective.’ Stinson has served since 2000 as executive director of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, which is located on the campus of Southern Seminary. Stinson will complete a Ph.D. at Southern in the spring and will also continue as the leader of CBMW.”

  95. You don’t need two morning seminars to convince people that the guy raiding the family savings to go to strip clubs needs to be put in line.

  96. Gram3 wrote:

    Comments? I thought they excommunicated comments from the 9Marks blog.

    When Jonathan Leeman announced the 9Marx comment purge, he said the only interaction allowed would be through his Dear Abby style “Mailbag” column. But at the time he had not published a Mailbag for months. He resumed the Mailbag late last year.

  97. Ken F wrote:

    the elders at HBC did what the ELDERS at The Village did with Karen Hinckley. They backed down because they were wrong, but of course they did not admit that they were wrong even though it was obvious to everyone else.

    Exactly.

  98. @ Gram3:

    That pretty much sums it up… just like so much white colar crime gets wrist slap while twi but criminals get hammered…. opps, I forgit that the church is not like the world

  99. Ken F wrote:

    The amount of info they collectively pump out daily is mind-numbing. I think their strategy is to dumb down their followers.

    Well, the best (most reliable and least troublesome) followers are not independent thinkers. Or deep thinkers. The trick is to get their consumers to believe that they are deep and independent thinkers and, most of all, SERIOUS THEOLOGiANS. Appeals to pride and vanity usually work well. Speaking for myself. 🙂

  100. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    but one of the primary convictions is our belief that the Bible is sufficient for the counseling task

    This is so stupid. I know it’s cliche but they don’t consider the bible sufficient for any other medical issues. Do they think the brain is not the body?

  101. @ Gram3

    My thoughts exactly…. years ago when i got "secular" counseling i was really surprised how accurate/helpful it was, and how my experiences were not unique…. i was taught the "neu…" stuff, and not impressed

  102. Darlene wrote:

    Besides, it might give some uppity women the idea that they can confront their pastors/elders regarding their attempts at mind control and spiritual manipulation. Can’t have any of that. Women need to know their place

    Really? Wait until my third book comes out. Its working title is “Broken Toys: How the Church Fails Victims of Failed Marriages”. I’ll certainly be examining spiritual abuse/manipulation and un-twisting some Scriptures. I suppose that could be seen as ‘confronting sin’.

  103. Deb wrote:

    I should have mentioned in this post, as I did in our first post on Marie’s story, that Dee called Tim Cochrell and asked him whether this was his hill to die on. That conversation took place days before we ever wrote one word about Marie’s ordeal.

    Now the Deebs are women who know how to confront! I wonder in that study this Saturday morning if they addressed the issue of women and their audacity to confront wrong behavior on their blogs. 😉

  104. Lea wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    but one of the primary convictions is our belief that the Bible is sufficient for the counseling task
    This is so stupid. I know it’s cliche but they don’t consider the bible sufficient for any other medical issues. Do they think the brain is not the body?

    No – they make a distinction between the brain (which is a biological organ) and the mind (which is immaterial). Adams has a lot of lectures touching on this.

    So basically, if it can be seen under a microscope and is organically identifiable, it is considered a neurological disease. ‘Mental illness’, according to Jay Adams, does not exist because the mind cannot be ill, not being an actual organ.

    It should be noted that not all biblical counselors agree with this – or the idea that SSRIs are always a bad idea – but Adams (the founder of the nouthetic counseling movement) is at the extreme end.

  105. @ Marie Notcheva:

    Wow… they really have their head in the sand!!! Functional MRI is making huge strides in linking the brain ti thoughts and actions….
    but then, the YEC have their head in the sand also!!

  106. Stan wrote:

    You don’t need two morning seminars to convince people that the guy raiding the family savings to go to strip clubs needs to be put in line.

    Ain’t that the truth! If they were only going after major issues, like abuse and adultery and theft they wouldn’t have any problems. People woukd be pretty much on board.

    It’s the anything we don’t agree with is a sin follow by church discipline that doesn’t play well.

    One day someone will pull out data and numbers on this nonsense and that will be interesting.

  107. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Mental illness’, according to Jay Adams, does not exist because the mind cannot be ill, not being an actual organ.

    Whoa!

    So, that’s wrong. But interesting to hear they actually address the issues and how.

  108. Lea wrote:

    Stan wrote:
    You don’t need two morning seminars to convince people that the guy raiding the family savings to go to strip clubs needs to be put in line.
    Ain’t that the truth! If they were only going after major issues, like abuse and adultery and theft they wouldn’t have any problems. People woukd be pretty much on board.
    It’s the anything we don’t agree with is a sin follow by church discipline that doesn’t play well.
    One day someone will pull out data and numbers on this nonsense and that will be interesting.

    Coupled with the fact that HBC is notoriously inconsistent on how they deal with divorces. There are members in good standing at HBC who have had “unbiblical divorces” and re-married (one did so twice) WHILE members there, and leadership never raised an eyebrow. While women in abuse cases are consistently pursued and brow-beaten, (which will be highlighted by the testimony on tomorrow’s newspaper), around the time they started in on me there were a couple others (similar circumstances) they let slip through the cracks. One of the women, seeing how they were harassing me, feared she would be the next target and quietly left the church. Others have not had any chase at all.

    It’s totally arbitrary and bizarre — it’s as if they choose their targets, and once you are in their cross-hairs, they will relentlessly gaslight and attack you until you either cave in or lose your sanity.

    I did neither. The fact that their attacks only further vindicated me (and helped my ministry!) must make their hearts quite heavy indeed. 😉

  109. By the way, since HBC is a 9Marx church I wanted to mention a concern I have for some dear friends of mine that I’ve known for many years. They were former members, like myself, of that toxic Christian cult. They stayed much longer than my husband and I and endured horrific spiritual abuse. Anyway, I’ve known some time that they have been attending a Calvinist church. Today I decided to go to the church’s website and do some investigating. You can imagine the sadness I felt upon discovering that the church is a solid 9Marx, even though they call themselves “non-denominational.” In looking over their website, it didn’t take long to recognize the obvious Red Flags: “Biblical” counseling, small groups, Member Covenant, Commitment to Accountability and Church Discipline, Main pastor a graduate of Master’s College (John MacArthur), and the following book recommendations – “Stop Dating the Church by Joshua Harris, Spiritual Discipline Within the Church by Donald Whitney, and drum roll….”9 Marks of a Healthy Church by Mark Dever.”

    It seems my dear friends have jumped from the frying pan into the fire. In speaking with my friend today who lives in Ohio and knows them, the last she knew, they weren’t interested in becoming members, only attending services. I can only hope that she is right. They haven’t responded to my messages on Facebook or my phone calls in a few years now.

  110. http://www.riverviewchurch.net/site/default.asp?sec_id=140007754

    The above is the 9Marx church some dear friends of mine are attending. I’m quite concerned about them since they were members of the same Christian cult that I once belonged to. These churches seem to be cropping up all over the place. What I find disturbing is that they disguise themselves as “non-denominational.” For trusting, naive, well-meaning Christians, this can be a trap. Dear Christians: Please read the entire church website before you commit yourself. Please Proceed With Caution.

  111. Nancy2 wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    I see that the 9:00 session follows a Men’s Breakfast and Bible study that began at 7:30. Wonder whether any women are attending the “When and How to Confront” teaching going on now.
    Why would women attend? True biblical women DO NOT confront, they submit.

    Oh my, Nancy2. I just read your comment now and you were thinking the same thing as me. Confront? That is a *Male* role.

  112. mot wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    Boy, am I glad I’m not Southern Baptist anymore!

    I’m living on borrowed time as a Southern Baptist Pastor. My church people and I work well together as I love them and try to serve them the best I know how, but I would not give you 2 pennies for the 2000 BF&M, I no longer support the Lottie Moon or Annie Armstrong offerings.

    I’m surprised you have not switched to the CBF. This SBC church
    I’ve been writing about takes up a collection for Lottie Moon and
    Annie Armstrong but he rarely speaks their names from the
    pulpit. This past year even the special envelopes only used their
    initials.

  113. Max wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    Dee called Tim Cochrell and asked him whether this was his hill to die on

    I am hoping that a vast army of young, restless and reformed will come to the realization in this new year that New Calvinism is not a hill to die on.

    True Believers have only one reaction:
    Fortify that hill, Double Down, and SCREAM LOUDER!

  114. Lane wrote:

    This SBC church
    I’ve been writing about takes up a collection for Lottie Moon and
    Annie Armstrong but he rarely speaks their names from the
    pulpit. This past year even the special envelopes only used their
    initials.

    Of course their names cannot be mentioned.
    THEY’RE JUST WIMMEN.

  115. Gram3 wrote:

    The trick is to get their consumers to believe that they are deep and independent thinkers and, most of all, SERIOUS THEOLOGiANS.

    Fluttering Hands and Curse of Babel Word Salad.

  116. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    years ago when i got “secular” counseling i was really surprised how accurate/helpful it was, and how my experiences were not unique

    Secular medical doctors saved my life, secular lawyers successfully argued my case, secular professors instructed me for my future profession.

  117. Lane wrote:

    mot wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    Boy, am I glad I’m not Southern Baptist anymore!

    I’m living on borrowed time as a Southern Baptist Pastor. My church people and I work well together as I love them and try to serve them the best I know how, but I would not give you 2 pennies for the 2000 BF&M, I no longer support the Lottie Moon or Annie Armstrong offerings.

    I’m surprised you have not switched to the CBF. This SBC church
    I’ve been writing about takes up a collection for Lottie Moon and
    Annie Armstrong but he rarely speaks their names from the
    pulpit. This past year even the special envelopes only used their
    initials.

    Lane: I probably should have been clearer I do not support the Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong offerings because they are used to finance a Neo-Cal position. My lack of support has only come about in the last year. I am pro-women and that definitely makes me a black sheep in the SBC world.

  118. JYJames wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    years ago when i got “secular” counseling i was really surprised how accurate/helpful it was, and how my experiences were not unique
    Secular medical doctors saved my life, secular lawyers successfully argued my case, secular professors instructed me for my future profession.

    And I now teach all that secular bioengineering, including old earth and evolutionary biology… man, I guess I really am compromised, as Ken Ham calls it!!

  119. Kemi wrote:

    The male authority that these churches practice ensures control stays in the hands of those with penises, but also it prevents them from having to deal with the sin in their lives. Their unwillingness to let their wives, who know them best, point out their sin is, I believe, a big motivation. Why work on your own heart and salvation when you can just focus on your wife’s sins?

    This reminds me of Lori Alexander’s blog, formerly called “Always Learning” changed to “The Transformed Wife.” Ken, Lori’s husband, wrote an article on her old blog that reveals the very kind of thinking that male headship fellas embrace. The comment section is quite eye opening. After reading the article and comment section, I have no doubt that Ken Alexander dislikes women. He makes no attempts whatsoever to hide his misogyny. It’s out and in the open. Here is the link:
    http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-self-discipline-of-one-flesh.html

  120. mot wrote:

    Lane wrote:

    mot wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    Boy, am I glad I’m not Southern Baptist anymore!

    I’m living on borrowed time as a Southern Baptist Pastor. My church people and I work well together as I love them and try to serve them the best I know how, but I would not give you 2 pennies for the 2000 BF&M, I no longer support the Lottie Moon or Annie Armstrong offerings.

    I’m surprised you have not switched to the CBF. This SBC church
    I’ve been writing about takes up a collection for Lottie Moon and
    Annie Armstrong but he rarely speaks their names from the
    pulpit. This past year even the special envelopes only used their
    initials.

    Lane: I probably should have been clearer I do not support the Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong offerings because they are used to finance a Neo-Cal position. My lack of support has only come about in the last year. I am pro-women and that definitely makes me a black sheep in the SBC world.

    I understood your meaning. I learned the neo-calvinist had taken
    over the IMB and NAMB. I was just meaning in this church the collection is focused on missions only and he de-emphasizes the use of the name Lottie Moon
    and Annie Armstrong as much as possible.

    BTW, I advocate an egalitarian attitude toward women as well.

  121. Here’s an article written by Lori Alexander from her current blog, “The Transformed Wife.” Just like her husband, she blames women for the problems in marriage. What is especially disturbing is that Ken and Lori have been counseling people for many years. Here’s the link:
    https://thetransformedwife.com/what-about-him/

  122. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    And I now teach all that secular bioengineering, including old earth and evolutionary biology… man, I guess I really am compromised, as Ken Ham calls it!!

    This weekend I had a bugger of a time routing ip traffic from an OpenVPN client over an ipsec tunnel. Apparently the solution escaped me because I was using a secular approach rather than a biblical one.

  123. Bridget wrote:

    “Are you faithfully Protestant?” Is the name of the 2017 ACBC conference and below is their main theme.
    “It takes a commitment to biblical counseling to restore the truths of Scripture, Jesus, grace, and faith to counseling practice so that broken people would give glory to God alone. This commitment is what is required to be faithfully protestant.”
    Anyone besides me have a problem with this? I mean, it’s like saying anyone who is not on board with what they claim about Biblical counseling is not a faithful Protestant!

    “Faithfully Protestant.” What does that even mean anymore? There are myriads of Protestant denominations, quite a few claiming to be the Genuine Church, while all others are apostates and not true believers.

  124. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    compromised

    So with the stipulations about what is true and worthy professional counseling…, with this ABC group…
    And the stipulations the Desiring Piper folks have with women in law enforcement or with women in professional authority over guys at their place of employment…
    Righteousness gets complicated.

  125. ishy wrote:

    Men go to neo-Calvinist churches to be told that God lets them do whatever they want.

    I want to say something about this. I’m not so sure that all men fall into the category of being drawn to Neo-Calvinism in order to be able to “do what they want.” Yes, I do think that Patriarcy/Comp has to be part of the package. In other words, no egalitarian man would be drawn to a Neo-Cal church. Or if they did start attending, they would not survive long in that sub-culture. But I think gist of it is, these Neo-Cal men actually believe they are to be Servant/Leaders and practice Headship – and here’s the real rub: EVEN WHEN THEY DON’T WANT TO BE THE LEADER ALL THE TIME. So, it wouldn’t be doing “whatever they want.” I don’t know how many times (but it’s been a lot) I’ve heard it said by Neo-Cal types that this is a grave responsibility and many times they aren’t up for the task. But, since God commands them to be Heads over their wives and households, they must resist the temptation to be lazy or irresponsible in this area. Further, I think that men who aren’t able to fit into the category of what is proper Biblical Headship according to the Neo-Cal blue prints, will get just as much flack as the uppity women. He will be regarded as an effeminate, wimpy man who is slack in his responsibility to *lead.* And he will be ostracized and treated like an unfaithful Christian.

  126. Christiane wrote:

    @ Deb:
    Paige Patterson shut down the certified counseling department at SWBTS. But there is now an SWBTS connection to some very dangerous faux counseling methods which purport to help people with depression, this:
    https://swbts.edu/news/quick-takes/biblical-counseling-explained-advocated-grindstone-panel/

    What absurdities these people believe. Lord have mercy on people who are suffering grief, pain, and loss and go to these “Biblical” counselors. Any kind of suffering will be minimized and people will be manipulated by guilt trips with a Bible verse attached. Ask me how I know. Been There Done That.

  127. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    to curry favor with the likes of T$G (their “We Are Protestant” conference, & all)?

    It is, after all, the year 2017 – the 500th Anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

  128. Lydia wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I will admit, I don’t understand this at all. I don’t know how we divorce evil actions and statements from the person who does them.

    Honest comment that most of us could make. The only answer must be ‘grace’. I remember that for some Christian people, it was possible …. so it can be done:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jup3MVIyasM

    Grace is overlooking perpetual evil deeds done to others in the Name of Christ? I think not.

    LYDIA, when you write
    “Grace is overlooking perpetual evil deeds done to others in the Name of Christ? I think not”
    How did the Amish do ‘overlook’ what was done to their beloved children? I don’t think these sorrowing people for a moment did that when they surrounded the widow and the mother of their children’s murderer with loving-kindness.

    The Amish did something that we humans normally can’t do: they saw the tragedy from the perspective of One Who forgave from the Cross….. the result: their kindness surrounded and embraced the shocked and grieving family of the murderer because they drew strength from doing it, because loving-kindness empowers those it touches but also those who express it. That is a part of the ‘mystery’ of Christ.

    I don’t know what ‘grace’ is, but I can tell you that whatever it is, the Amish were able to express it, and the family of the murderer were blessed by it.

  129. Lydia wrote:

    Grace is overlooking perpetual evil deeds done to others in the Name of Christ? I think not.

    “Some commentators criticized the quick and complete forgiveness with which the Amish responded, arguing that forgiveness is inappropriate when no remorse has been expressed, and that such an attitude runs the risk of denying the existence of evil,[21][22][23] while others were supportive.[24][25] Donald Kraybill and two other scholars of Amish life noted that “letting go of grudges” is a deeply rooted value in Amish culture, which remembers forgiving martyrs including Dirk Willems and Jesus himself. They explained that the Amish willingness to forgo vengeance does not undo the tragedy or pardon the wrong, but rather constitutes a first step toward a future that is more hopeful.”

  130. Ken F wrote:

    I check the sites of the usual suspects pretty much daily. The amount of info they collectively pump out daily is mind-numbing. I think their strategy is to dumb down their followers. TGC posts about six to eight new articles every day but Sunday. Almost the same with Piper’s site.

    They must be taking a cue from the Doug Wilson playbook. That fella pumps out propagandized pieces on a daily basis. I wonder how he gets any *pastoring* done.

  131. Darlene wrote:

    Here’s an article written by Lori Alexander from her current blog, “The Transformed Wife.” Just like her husband, she blames women for the problems in marriage. What is especially disturbing is that Ken and Lori have been counseling people for many years. Here’s the link:
    https://thetransformedwife.com/what-about-him/

    I read both articles you referenced and some of the comments on the articles. Okay, husbands are the heads and wives are ………. appendages???
    Oh, Please!!! Men who think that way should just forget about women and adopt a dog from the nearest animal shelter! Then, they could REALLY lead! (And, get bitten a few times, I hope!)

  132. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Besides, it might give some uppity women the idea that they can confront their pastors/elders regarding their attempts at mind control and spiritual manipulation. Can’t have any of that. Women need to know their place
    Really? Wait until my third book comes out. Its working title is “Broken Toys: How the Church Fails Victims of Failed Marriages”. I’ll certainly be examining spiritual abuse/manipulation and un-twisting some Scriptures. I suppose that could be seen as ‘confronting sin’.

    Marie, I hope you know that I was being sarcastic. 😉

  133. @ Christiane:
    ” The quality of mercy is not strain’d,
    It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
    Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
    It blesseth him that gives and him that takes|”

    The Bard 🙂
    (Merchant of Venice)

  134. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    JYJames wrote:
    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    years ago when i got “secular” counseling i was really surprised how accurate/helpful it was, and how my experiences were not unique
    Secular medical doctors saved my life, secular lawyers successfully argued my case, secular professors instructed me for my future profession.
    And I now teach all that secular bioengineering, including old earth and evolutionary biology… man, I guess I really am compromised, as Ken Ham calls it!!

    Jeffrey, I’d love to sit in on one of your classes. Do you have a blog or somewhere that you write articles on line? I’d really be interested in learning more bout the ‘old earth’ and ‘evolutionary biology.’

  135. ishy wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    To me, they either really do not believe the stuff they spew out, or they are crumple under legal pressure, which is the opposite of beinging willing to “take a stand for Christ”

    The fact that they are not taking any action against Marie’s ex, including pushing him into signing a covenant, tells me much the same.

    I don’t think this has anything to do with the Bible, and has everything to do with making an example of women not being obedient to men.

    This is really interesting, if they really are caving under legal pressure, it sure doesn’t make me trust their own conviction on this issue. I mean Christians were thrown to the lions for their beliefs, in the olden days. You’d think they’d continue to pursue the poor woman into the dead of the night, regardless of whether this ended in a courtroom. It appears the Achilles heel of patriarchal theology is a quality lawyer;).

  136. SureWhyNot? wrote:

    I mean Christians were thrown to the lions for their beliefs, in the olden days. You’d think they’d continue to pursue the poor woman into the dead of the night, regardless of whether this ended in a courtroom. It appears the Achilles heel of patriarchal theology is a quality lawyer

    Bullies are, at heart, cowards …… the woman alone was seen as vulnerable to their intimidation attempts,
    but when their intended victim becomes armed with a ‘quality lawyer’, the bullies gave up, abandoned all, and ran away

    neo-Cal-ism would not have survived the first three centuries of Roman rule, no

  137. Lydia wrote:

    Why would anyone want to be a “faithful” Protestant? Why not a faithful follower of Christ? They seem to think they are one and the same.

    Yes, that’s what they think, Lydia. And you are anathema if you ain’t (a protestant). The silly world of men and their idolatrous presuppositions. By virtue of definition and application, these two concepts cannot be the same. Someone is lying.

    There’s a knock on the door…I think it’s the Church police coming to take me away to Camp Calvin (indoctrination period: one lifetime).

  138. SureWhyNot? wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    To me, they either really do not believe the stuff they spew out, or they are crumple under legal pressure, which is the opposite of beinging willing to “take a stand for Christ”
    The fact that they are not taking any action against Marie’s ex, including pushing him into signing a covenant, tells me much the same.
    I don’t think this has anything to do with the Bible, and has everything to do with making an example of women not being obedient to men.
    This is really interesting, if they really are caving under legal pressure, it sure doesn’t make me trust their own conviction on this issue. I mean Christians were thrown to the lions for their beliefs, in the olden days. You’d think they’d continue to pursue the poor woman into the dead of the night, regardless of whether this ended in a courtroom. It appears the Achilles heel of patriarchal theology is a quality lawyer;).

    It is the Theology of winning, ends justifies the means, defending the apologetic, winning, overcoming, dealing with it, moving on, utilitarianism, etc. I always found that to be antithetical to the teachings of Jesus.

  139. jerome wrote:

    But at the time he had not published a Mailbag for months. He resumed the Mailbag late last year.

    Yes, there was a five month break between #38 and #39. The other recent change is removing the mailbag icon from the front page. It’s still possible to get to the list of archives, but it is not as intuitive. Here is the link for anyone interested: https://9marks.org/mailbag/archives/.

  140. Ken F wrote:

    jerome wrote:

    But at the time he had not published a Mailbag for months. He resumed the Mailbag late last year.

    Yes, there was a five month break between #38 and #39. The other recent change is removing the mailbag icon from the front page. It’s still possible to get to the list of archives, but it is not as intuitive. Here is the link for anyone interested: https://9marks.org/mailbag/archives/.

    What is he so afraid of?

  141. Lane wrote:

    I understood your meaning. I learned the neo-calvinist had taken
    over the IMB and NAMB. I was just meaning in this church the collection is focused on missions only and he de-emphasizes the use of the name Lottie Moon
    and Annie Armstrong as much as possible.

    BTW, I advocate an egalitarian attitude toward women as well.

    If the Neo-Cal pastors were honest they hate women and especially in the Southern Baptist Convention where the two largest offerings of the year are in honor of two women that these boys could not hold a candle to. I love and support what Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong represent and supported these two missions for decades. I can not in the right conscious support them very much now.

  142. SureWhyNot? wrote:

    This is really interesting, if they really are caving under legal pressure, it sure doesn’t make me trust their own conviction on this issue. I mean Christians were thrown to the lions for their beliefs, in the olden days. You’d think they’d continue to pursue the poor woman into the dead of the night, regardless of whether this ended in a courtroom. It appears the Achilles heel of patriarchal theology is a quality lawyer;).

    This is why I’ve changed my mind about why they went so far. The fact that this went on for so long tells me they had something personal invested in it.

    I don’t think it was a conviction. I think it was a “class project”. Kevin probably needs an example of how they handled “reconciliation” for his doctoral thesis, and I’m betting his thesis would have spelled out something very different from what actually happened. It’s not just making an example of women, but he might fail his dissertation, especially now that how they handled the situation was made public, and lawyers got involved.

  143. mot wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    jerome wrote:

    But at the time he had not published a Mailbag for months. He resumed the Mailbag late last year.

    Yes, there was a five month break between #38 and #39. The other recent change is removing the mailbag icon from the front page. It’s still possible to get to the list of archives, but it is not as intuitive. Here is the link for anyone interested: https://9marks.org/mailbag/archives/.

    What is he so afraid of?

    It may just be my computer but the link is not working. I would not be surprised one bit if he shuts this down to. Coward!

  144. ishy wrote:

    I don’t think it was a conviction. I think it was a “class project”

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised, since he’s now doing a lecture/class on the subject, right after that December 23rd deadline!

    But the theology is still there, it’s just clearly not consistent. They pick and choose who they go after, it seems like.

  145. Lea wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    I don’t think it was a conviction. I think it was a “class project”

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised, since he’s now doing a lecture/class on the subject, right after that December 23rd deadline!

    But the theology is still there, it’s just clearly not consistent. They pick and choose who they go after, it seems like.

    Wonder if they ever allow the Holy Spirit to guide their preaching?

  146. @ Christiane:
    Yes, this is very disturbing. Moore shut down the (pretty excellent) state certified counseling program at SBTS and replaced it with some hogwash “biblical counseling” nonsense. I still can’t figure out if this was an attempt to sugar o’er the devil himself, or wallpapering the inability to maintain accreditation following the fundamentalist purge.

  147. mot wrote:

    mot wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    jerome wrote:

    But at the time he had not published a Mailbag for months. He resumed the Mailbag late last year.

    Yes, there was a five month break between #38 and #39. The other recent change is removing the mailbag icon from the front page. It’s still possible to get to the list of archives, but it is not as intuitive. Here is the link for anyone interested: https://9marks.org/mailbag/archives/.

    What is he so afraid of?

    It may just be my computer but the link is not working. I would not be surprised one bit if he shuts this down to. Coward!

    My bad, the link works now.

  148. Lea wrote:

    But the theology is still there, it’s just clearly not consistent. They pick and choose who they go after, it seems like.

    Oh, no doubt, or he wouldn’t have picked that as a topic. I bet he really believed that their perceived authority would cause people to obey. But the authority they believe they have has been self-granted, not granted by God as the Calvinistas have probably told them, and it’s never going to work when it comes into the light. He got more and more desperate to force the reconciliation, probably telling his professors it was all under control. I’m sure he also never imagined that Marie would make all this public, because he was so certain he could manipulate the Marie and the narrative.

  149. Deb wrote:

    FYI: Marie’s story has been published in the Sentinel & Enterprise.
    Irreconcilable Differences — with her church
    Excellent reporting by Peter Jasinski!

    Nice!

  150. ishy wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    But the theology is still there, it’s just clearly not consistent. They pick and choose who they go after, it seems like.

    Oh, no doubt, or he wouldn’t have picked that as a topic. I bet he really believed that their perceived authority would cause people to obey. But the authority they believe they have has been self-granted, not granted by God as the Calvinistas have probably told them, and it’s never going to work when it comes into the light. He got more and more desperate to force the reconciliation, probably telling his professors it was all under control. I’m sure he also never imagined that Marie would make all this public, because he was so certain he could manipulate the Marie and the narrative.

    Thank God for a woman that would not submit!!

  151. @ Deb:

    Excellent. So glad word is getting out to the larger community. This is tough with mega church problems because so many members are connected to local advertisers and the media does not want to offend them.

  152. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    @ elastigirl:
    It isn’t counseling they are after; vulnerable and hurting people are perfect marks for reinforcing their cult. It is disgusting to me.

    Yes, like most cons or abusers, they target who they think is weak. The Catholic Priests targeted kids from mainly single, low income families. Hierarchical churches target women who don’t have well heeled support systems they fear. and so on. They don’t expect those they perceive as weak to fight back.

    Way to go, Marie.

  153. A few weeks ago I read about this situation and remembered I heard of Tim somewhere. Then I remembered. I had interviewed at Heritage for a staff position 4 years ago. At the time, I would’ve agreed with their elders decision because I was a huge 9 Marks proponent. I am not any more and would not handle the situation like they did. My family will never step back into a “9 Marks church” due to our experience in Louisville when we were at one and where I served as an elder. Thanks for your work on exposing pastoral abuse. I hope this lady finds healing and care elsewhere.

  154. Men and women as fellow human beings on level ground vs women as subhuman and men as superhuman. Who would have known that the church would be reduced to this twisted enterprise.

  155. @ Darlene:
    You make a very important point which I want to tie back to the Piper nonsense of a few days ago. The point of a legalistic system is to have so many rules that are fuzzy that the subjects of the rules are always off balance and unsure. Therefore they are always in search of reassurance which the Superiors are always willing to provide at a conference or in a book or in a sermon. The peons are also subject to the whims of interpretation of the rules by their Superiors. That is the importance of Piper’s “when it is done right” remark.

    The Superiors can always find something wrong with what either the man or the woman is doing because the rules are deliberately vague. The rules can be applied capriciously, too, so Favored Ones can escape consequences while Unfavored Ones suffer consequences. That is the way these systems work. They are not Christian systems, and they do not belong in the Church of Jesus the Christ, but there we find them.

  156. JYJames wrote:

    women as subhuman and men as superhuman

    Heck, the New Calvinists have even put Jesus as subGod! So, it should be no surprise that they would put women as mere derivatives of men and place them into subordination to them in all things.

    JYJames wrote:

    Who would have known that the church would be reduced to this twisted enterprise.

    John Calvin and Al Mohler.

  157. ishy wrote:

    Men go to neo-Calvinist churches to be told that God lets them do whatever they want.

    Yep, sorry excuses for men go to such places to get their women in line.

  158. Gram3 wrote:

    The Superiors can always find something wrong with what either the man or the woman is doing because the rules are deliberately vague. The rules can be applied capriciously, too, so Favored Ones can escape consequences while Unfavored Ones suffer consequences. That is the way these systems work.

    This is how totalitarian systems work as well. The laws are so overreaching that it makes compliance impossible. It gives the authorities the power to blackmail citizens into ratting each other out. Failure to comply means arrest, prosecution, and imprisonment.

  159. ishy wrote:

    But the authority they believe they have has been self-granted, not granted by God as the Calvinistas have probably told them, and it’s never going to work when it comes into the light. He got more and more desperate to force the reconciliation, probably telling his professors it was all under control. I’m sure he also never imagined that Marie would make all this public, because he was so certain he could manipulate the Marie and the narrative.

    No doubt at all about the authority being self-granted. The rest of what you wrote is very, very interesting. They are losing control of the narrative and also the means of controlling the narrative. I think Driscoll was the turning point. They tried every means of intimidation and it did not ultimately work. Grudem threw a toddler fit over Trueman and Pruitt exposing Grudem’s unorthodox Theology. That did not work. 9Marks and the others put their pouty faces on and put their fingers in their ears. That will not change anything except that they will only dig themselves deeper holes and make themselves more impenetrable bunker bubbles. All the while telling themselves and us how to build better relationships and communities. They do not get it.

  160. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    You make a very important point which I want to tie back to the Piper nonsense of a few days ago. The point of a legalistic system is to have so many rules that are fuzzy that the subjects of the rules are always off balance and unsure. Therefore they are always in search of reassurance which the Superiors are always willing to provide at a conference or in a book or in a sermon. The peons are also subject to the whims of interpretation of the rules by their Superiors. That is the importance of Piper’s “when it is done right” remark.
    The Superiors can always find something wrong with what either the man or the woman is doing because the rules are deliberately vague. The rules can be applied capriciously, too, so Favored Ones can escape consequences while Unfavored Ones suffer consequences. That is the way these systems work. They are not Christian systems, and they do not belong in the Church of Jesus the Christ, but there we find them.

    It’s when you try to question them on any vague rule or teaching they become very defensive. Truth is, they can’t handle the questions. So the unwritten rule becomes don’t question me or you are rebellious and angry. And they seek to marginalize those types.

    But they don’t do this with their respected and accepted peers. As we saw with Ware and Grudem on ESS. Mohler was positively cheeky on ESS.

    If one watches long enough they see the game for what it is. Rigged.

  161. ishy wrote:

    SureWhyNot? wrote:
    This is really interesting, if they really are caving under legal pressure, it sure doesn’t make me trust their own conviction on this issue. I mean Christians were thrown to the lions for their beliefs, in the olden days. You’d think they’d continue to pursue the poor woman into the dead of the night, regardless of whether this ended in a courtroom. It appears the Achilles heel of patriarchal theology is a quality lawyer;).

    This is why I’ve changed my mind about why they went so far. The fact that this went on for so long tells me they had something personal invested in it.
    I don’t think it was a conviction. I think it was a “class project”. Kevin probably needs an example of how they handled “reconciliation” for his doctoral thesis, and I’m betting his thesis would have spelled out something very different from what actually happened. It’s not just making an example of women, but he might fail his dissertation, especially now that how they handled the situation was made public, and lawyers got involved.

    I am thankful that the authority of the church is impotent when pitted against government authority, but its sort of a lousy thing to be thankful for. Its a sad day when the world’s culture is safer than that of the church.

    Wouldn’t things be so much easier if there were one–JUST ONE–Bible scripture that read, “Any man who treats his wife viciously shall lose his wife, and she is free to remarry.”

    Just one. SO simple. At the risk of sounding blasphemous, this scripture would have saved a gender from centuries of conflict and belittling.

  162. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Moore shut down the (pretty excellent) state certified counseling program at SBTS and replaced it with some hogwash “biblical counseling” nonsense.

    “This new vision for biblical counseling is historic and groundbreaking in Southern Baptist life. It means moving beyond the clinical professionalism of what historically has been dubbed “pastoral care” in the therapeutic guild, but it also means recovering true “pastoral care” as defined by the Scriptures.” (Russell Moore, http://www.sbts.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2010/09/counseling-book-moore.pdf)

    Of course, Moore means “true pastoral care” according to the patriarchal authoritarian complementarian twisted-Scripture teachings of New Calvinism. The product of such pastoral counselor training at SBTS is being manifested across the SBC landscape – Marie’s experience is but one example.

  163. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Biblical counseling, as it’s taught here at Southwestern, is based upon a number of convictions, but one of the primary convictions is our belief that the Bible is sufficient for the counseling task,” Babler explained. “It’s not the Bible plus something else; the Bible is sufficient for the counseling task.”

    I wonder if this “counseling” is like Scientology–if they find out you have taken “evil psych drugz,” you’re disqualified from their services?

    Conversely, I could see their “counseling” of a person with an undiagnosed psychiatric condition could be problematic at best, and could lead to disaster at the worst. If these people were licensed by the state (and I bet they’re not, at least not the 19 ACBC types in Arizona), it would be malpractice to not refer them to a psychiatrist. But they’re hiding behind religion and destroying lives in the process.

    What scares me is that there may be some of those ACBC types counseling people to throw away their medications. That can be disastrous.

  164. mot wrote:

    Wonder if they ever allow the Holy Spirit to guide their preaching?

    Does it sound like their preaching is led by the Holy Spirit?!

  165. @ Gram3:

    I think the big cheeses know they have to rebrand. And I think they are trying with more of a focus on a social Gospel (except patriarchy!) they are now using “Protestant” instead of Reformed, Founders or Doctrines of Grace in their promotions. (The big tent approach).

    They are crafty.

  166. Lea wrote:

    But the theology is still there, it’s just clearly not consistent. They pick and choose who they go after, it seems like.

    New Calvinism would not exist if they didn’t do that!

  167. @ Max:
    I am going to send that link and the Henry Institute paper link to the NPR reporter who thinks Russ Moore is the moral savior of the SBC. :o)

  168. mot wrote:

    I love and support what Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong represent and supported these two missions for decades. I can not in the right conscious support them very much now.

    That’s because the mission pertaining to missions has changed with the New Calvinist takeover of SBC mission agencies. The primary mission now is to to plant reformed theology on home and foreign fields, using Lottie and Annie to do so.

  169. Darlene wrote:

    I wonder how he gets any *pastoring* done.

    New Calvinist “lead pastors” delegate pastoring to their elder teams, so they can sit in coffee shops and tweet their lives away on social media. If and when they reach mega-status, they use their time to write books and speak at conferences … their “pastoring” then becomes restricted to an occasional appearance at their church to preach a sermon or two, before they disappear again.

  170. Bill M wrote:

    “Your ministry is helping me to submit to and not argue with my husband …”

    The unspoken completion to that sentence “… so you don’t discipline, shun and/or excommunicate me.”

  171. Darlene wrote:

    I think that men who aren’t able to fit into the category of what is proper Biblical Headship according to the Neo-Cal blue prints, will get just as much flack as the uppity women. He will be regarded as an effeminate, wimpy man who is slack in his responsibility to *lead.* And he will be ostracized and treated like an unfaithful Christian.

    Now, doesn’t that sound like Jesus?! Heck, that doesn’t even sound like Paul!

  172. @ Max:
    Hierarchy of the Holy Trinity; whack. A click off, just enough to “land” in the ocean instead of on the carrier, as they say in Navy aviation.

  173. @ Max:
    From Moore’s book: “Fukuyama sees in the therapeutic establishment’s attempt to “medicalize everything” an attempt to escape the “constraints” even of gender:
    There is a disconcerting symmetry between Prozac and Ritalin. The former is prescribed heavily for depressed women lacking in self-esteem; it gives them more of the alpha-male feeling that comes with high serotonin levels. Ritalin, on the other hand, is prescribed largely for young boys who do not want to sit still in class because nature never designed them to behave that way. Together, the two sexes are gently nudged toward that androgynous median personality, self-satisfied and socially compliant, that is the current politically correct outcome in American society.”

    While I was teaching, I encountered a few students who were hyper-hyper active and completely out of control when they did not take their medication. Russ Moore adopted 2 boys from Russia, and, if I recall correctly, the boys are challenged (ADHD or ADD??). So, does Moore just skip medical doctors and medication and take his boys to a “biblical ” counselor for fear that a medical doctor will sissify them?

  174. Adam E. wrote:

    A few weeks ago I read about this situation and remembered I heard of Tim somewhere. Then I remembered. I had interviewed at Heritage for a staff position 4 years ago. At the time, I would’ve agreed with their elders decision because I was a huge 9 Marks proponent. I am not any more and would not handle the situation like they did. My family will never step back into a “9 Marks church” due to our experience in Louisville when we were at one and where I served as an elder. Thanks for your work on exposing pastoral abuse. I hope this lady finds healing and care elsewhere.

    Best. Comment. Ever.

    Thank you sir and I would like to shake your hand. You wouldn’t find a very big congregation at HBC anyway these days, had you accepted the position.

  175. Darlene wrote:

    It is, after all, the year 2017 – the 500th Anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

    On that very dark note (the reformation was an act of “God”, remember? Don’t ever dare speak against it! Puh-leeze!), the following quotes about us “wimmen” folk by those who have spread the darkness for 500 years or so… (quotes taken from https://valerietarico.com/2013/07/01/mysogynistquoteschurchfathers/ )

    1) Woman is a temple built over a sewer. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

    2) For it is improper for a woman to speak in an assembly, no matter what she says,
    even if she says admirable things, or even saintly things, that is of little
    consequence, since they come from the mouth of a woman. –Origen (d. 258): Fragments on First Corinthians, 74

    3) Woman does not possess the image of God in herself but only when taken together
    with the male who is her head, so that the whole substance is one image. But
    when she is assigned the role as helpmate, a function that pertains to her
    alone, then she is not the image of God. But as far as the man is concerned, he
    is by himself alone the image of God just as fully and completely as when he and
    the woman are joined together into one. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

    4) The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Works 12.94

    5) No gown worse becomes a woman than the desire to be wise. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)

    6) Men have broad and large chests, and small narrow hips, and more understanding than women, who have but small and narrow breasts, and broad hips, to the end they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Table Talk

    7) Thus the woman, who had perversely exceeded her proper bounds, is forced back to her own position. She had, indeed, previously been subject to her husband, but that was a liberal and gentle subjection; now, however, she is cast into servitude. –John Calvin, Reformer (1509-1564): Commentary on Genesis, p. 172.

    8) The second duty of the wife is constant obedience and subjection. –John Dod: A Plaine and Familiar Exposition of the Ten Commandments, Puritan guidebook first published in 1603

    And so the list goes on. Many on this blog have said it: RUN from this movement and its tentacles. Run.

    I hope I have not messed up your weekend, but, hey, aren’t we all “temples” built over a sewer? Hey, ladies? With that fantastic image I end.

  176. ishy wrote:

    Now the SBC wants everyone to go through forced “counseling” to make sure you know your place as a peon.

    Say what? Everyone…forced…counseling. I must have missed where that was discussed. Can you elaborate?

  177. Max wrote:

    Bill M wrote:

    “Your ministry is helping me to submit to and not argue with my husband …”

    The unspoken completion to that sentence “… so you don’t discipline, shun and/or excommunicate me.”

    I shuddered when it appeared that quote might be attributed to me.

  178. JYJames wrote:

    Hierarchy of the Holy Trinity; whack. A click off, just enough to “land” in the ocean instead of on the carrier, as they say in Navy aviation.

    Well, it’s bad enough to drown yourself with such an error … but the New Calvinists are submerging multitudes in a sea of theological blunder.

  179. Nancy2 wrote:

    So, does Moore just skip medical doctors and medication and take his boys to a “biblical ” counselor for fear that a medical doctor will sissify them?

    I hope he does not skip medical analysis and care if necessary. There are people who need medication for ADHD/ADD and if they don’t get proper care they can end up self medicating, which is never good.

  180. Adam E. wrote:

    A few weeks ago I read about this situation and remembered I heard of Tim somewhere. Then I remembered. I had interviewed at Heritage for a staff position 4 years ago. At the time, I would’ve agreed with their elders decision because I was a huge 9 Marks proponent. I am not any more and would not handle the situation like they did. My family will never step back into a “9 Marks church” due to our experience in Louisville when we were at one and where I served as an elder. Thanks for your work on exposing pastoral abuse. I hope this lady finds healing and care elsewhere.

    Thanks for sharing. It would be helpful to hear your entire story and what you learned during this experience. If you are interested, maybe you could email or call Dee and Deb.

  181. Bridget wrote:

    I hope he does not skip medical analysis and care if necessary. There are people who need medication for ADHD/ADD and if they don’t get proper care they can end up self medicating, which is never good.

    In addition to what I saw as a teacher, 6 or 7 years ago, one of my 1st cousins adopted a boy from a Siberian orphanage ….. ADHD. My daughter has a stepson who is bi-polar and is learning disabilities. – he will never be able to function independently. I can see clearly, first hand, how laughable “biblical counseling would be for my young Russian-born cousin and my daughter’s step-son.
    I do believe certain meds are sometimes over-rated and over-prescribed, but the idiots who favor “biblical” counseling instead of professional medical care really need to live with and care for some children/people with serious ADD/ADHD, depression, bi-polar, schizophrenia, etc.

  182. Adam E. wrote:

    My family will never step back into a “9 Marks church” due to our experience in Louisville when we were at one and where I served as an elder.

    Thank you so much for commenting. Hope lives in your story. May your tribe of Former-But-Never-Again-9Marks-Elders increase!

  183. @ Ken F:

    “RightNow Media is a new wrinkle to this (my SBC church recently signed up for it). …The New-Calvinists have posted so much to the web in the last few years that it’s not surprising to find it dominating this site. It’s being billed as the Christian Netflix.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    my most recent church subscribed to RightNow Media. I was very uncomfortable with it. I don’t believe the pastors at the church vetted any of it — well, how could they, it’s such an onslaught of information.

    it seemed to me that the pastors subscribed to this as a very convenient way of providing “bible study” programs for the people at their church.

    instead of bible study, it was simply reading other people’s thoughts and conclusions about the bible. and about very other topic imaginable.

    It is a machine that tells you what to think.

    Like a milk dispensary flowing with milk laced with some drug that wears down objectivity little by little.

    RightNow Media is a propaganda machine, merely channeling the loudest christian powerbrokers.

    it’s one of the reasons i no longer attend that church. i felt like we were all getting hooked up to the machine, from the pastors & staff to the members & attenders. A machine controlled by christian powerbrokers and other shadowy entities whose interests are money, power, and control.

    (shades of “1984”? i’m a bit fuzzy on it — high school freshman english was a long time ago)

  184. @ Adam E.:
    You and your wife are rare. Not many are willing to question or walk away from high control groups, especially when they are at the top.

  185. @ SureWhyNot?:

    “I am thankful that the authority of the church is impotent when pitted against government authority, but its sort of a lousy thing to be thankful for. Its a sad day when the world’s culture is safer than that of the church.”
    +++++++++++++++

    well, as I see it, at rock bottom, brass tacks & all, the church exists to perpetuate itself. strip all varnish and that is the mission.

    because of money and power.

    too much has been invested in the institution (the cost of the facility, expensive ministry education, careers, salaries, benefits, a platform down to a niche of power and significance…) for it to be sacrificed.

    “church”. it’s not what it purports to be.

  186. elastigirl wrote:

    my most recent church subscribed to RightNow Media. I was very uncomfortable with it.

    David Platt, Tony Evans, Matt Chandler, Noel Piper ……… the “Authentic Manhood” series??? Yeah, count me out!

  187. okrapod wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    Now the SBC wants everyone to go through forced “counseling” to make sure you know your place as a peon.
    /
    Say what? Everyone…forced…counseling. I must have missed where that was discussed. Can you elaborate?

    I am speaking at an institutional level, and driven by the neo-Calvinists, and not for the majority of Southern Baptists. As others have said, the institutions have dropped their certified counselor programs and switched to these authoritarian biblical “counseling” programs. They teach pastors to pressure members toward biblical counseling any time someone is not fully in compliance.

    As we saw with Marie, those pastors told her they were going to give her counseling, but it was really an interrogation. Their concept of “biblical counseling” and chains of accountability are really the same thing. It’s to keep people in line.

  188. elastigirl wrote:

    RightNow Media is a propaganda machine, merely channeling the loudest christian powerbrokers.

    That is exactly how I see it. You cannot get to the search function from the home page (which I find suspicious), but you can get to it if you do an internet search on RightNow Media along with a famous Christian name. From there you can make all kinds of searches. I did a search on Arminianism and the only hit was a Piper book on TULIP. I tried some non-Calvinist theologians like Barth and MacDonald and got nothing. I did find a leadership series by the United Methodist Church, which is not Calvinist. But Calvinist hits are the vast majority of the content.

  189. ishy wrote:

    As we saw with Marie, those pastors told her they were going to give her counseling, but it was really an interrogation. Their concept of “biblical counseling” and chains of accountability are really the same thing. It’s to keep people in line.

    I’ll add that they say they won’t let members leave if they are “in church discipline”. Dee was posting on Twitter about some of the churches she found that had that in their rules. So, like in Marie’s case, they chase people down and try to break them down. It’s not legal, but I don’t think many people realize that.

  190. @ SureWhyNot?:

    “Wouldn’t things be so much easier if there were one–JUST ONE–Bible scripture that read, “Any man who treats his wife viciously shall lose his wife, and she is free to remarry.”

    Just one. SO simple. At the risk of sounding blasphemous, this scripture would have saved a gender from centuries of conflict and belittling.”
    +++++++++++++

    yes, would be helpful. i imagine “viciously” would end up being redefined with a number of loopholes, though.

    i can think of a number of things in the bible which, if they had been phrased differently or excluded altogether, would have eliminated much unnecessary burden, relational dysfunction, and harm.

    but really, i think it comes down to how human beings view the bible.

    –Missing the forest by examining the bugs on the sap on the trees?

    –A textbook of rules rather than a story of God saying “Hey! Here I am! Get to know me, because I know you and I am for you!” and people responding, God responding back, etc.

    –An instrument to control people.

    …but this is old news.

  191. ishy wrote:

    But the authority they believe they have has been self-granted, not granted by God as the Calvinistas have probably told them

    This is where it gets confusing. They believe they have the ‘key’s’. But who grants them those keys functionally? US! We choose what church we go to whether they like it or not. There is no state church. There is no actual authority granted to them that we don’t grant them ourselves. So the moment someone responds to their guilt/power tripping with a firm ‘NO’ that’s the end of it. They can rant and rave and send letters, but they cannot force you to go to their church. They cannot force you to grant them authority.

    Which gets to the ones who believe women should submit to husbands, the minute a woman says no and means it is the minute their supposed ‘authority’ is gone.

    All they have is shaming and guilt tripping, they have no real functional power.

  192. Nancy2 wrote:

    From Moore’s book: “Fukuyama sees in the therapeutic establishment’s attempt to “medicalize everything” an attempt to escape the “constraints” even of gender:
    There is a disconcerting symmetry between Prozac and Ritalin. The former is prescribed heavily for depressed women lacking in self-esteem; it gives them more of the alpha-male feeling that comes with high serotonin levels. Ritalin, on the other hand, is prescribed largely for young boys who do not want to sit still in class because nature never designed them to behave that way. Together, the two sexes are gently nudged toward that androgynous median personality, self-satisfied and socially compliant, that is the current politically correct outcome in American society.”

    Oh this is cr*ptastic. I take a cocktail of antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications so I can function in society. It’s not a matter of high serotonin levels, it’s a matter of getting my serotonin levels up to a normal level. If I didn’t take my evil psych drugz, I’d be (at best) unable to get out of bed in the morning, and (at worst) trying to kill myself.

    I’d also note that a female relative was given Ritalin back at the end of the 1960s because she was so hyperactive she would disrupt an entire classroom of kids. Interestingly, the Ritalin was ONLY for when she was in school. The family had to put up with her hyperactivity after school, on weekends and whenever school wasn’t in session!

    If I had a chance to speak to Moore, I doubt I’d talk to him. Instead I’d hurl my bottles of medication at him to show my utter contempt for his inability to handle science. And then I’d collect my bottles of medication, because my insurance will not pay to replace them.

  193. @ Lea:

    I want to also say I think I heard something said, although I can’t recall where, that if someone ‘chooses’ to submit than they have really submitted? Or something? Because there is choice involved. I may be getting that mixed a bit, but they kind of know that there is no there, there. We always choose, ultimately. Church or marriage.

    And they hate that. They hate it so much they try to force it through church discipline, and men try to force marriage control through violence in the worst scenarios (sadly sometimes to the point of killing someone who tries to leave, because they cannot be controlled).

    They should think about the ultimate end of their theology of control here, because it’s nothing good.

  194. Boston Lady wrote:

    4) The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Works 12.94

    Hey, Martin! *waves* Not a wife, not a prostitute here! I have a well-paying job and I contribute to society. Nothing wrong with being a wife, I wish we didn’t have prostitution, but don’t shove all of us into boxes!

    (Note, too, how he dissed his wife Katharina von Bora’s former profession, which was that of “nun.” He thought women devoted to prayer and chastity were a problem!)

  195. Gram3 wrote:

    The Superiors can always find something wrong with what either the man or the woman is doing because the rules are deliberately vague. The rules can be applied capriciously, too, so Favored Ones can escape consequences while Unfavored Ones suffer consequences. That is the way these systems work.

    Yes. All of this. Problem in a nutshell.

  196. Lea wrote:

    All they have is shaming and guilt tripping, they have no real functional power.

    I think the real power that they have is the threat of the removal of your social network. Perhaps your main social network. And if you have kids, one of their main social networks. And if you are concerned about having your kids in a “good” environment and “flourishing,” you are concerned about keeping them plugged in there. Generic you.

  197. @ Ken F:

    “You cannot get to the search function from the home page (which I find suspicious), but you can get to it if you do an internet search on RightNow Media along with a famous Christian name.”
    +++++++++++

    so, i’m wondering if a church can choose what resources to make available to the people in their churches. only allowing certain things.

    so much policing. thought-policing. the fact that this seems to be the norm is very troubling. (how many very’s am i allowed to use?)

  198. @ ishy:

    “They teach pastors to pressure members toward biblical counseling any time someone is not fully in compliance.”
    ++++++++++

    since you come from christian academia, where & how is this taught? i understand it is probably all in the realm of subtle wordsmithing. i’d be interested to hear your experience & observations in more detail.

  199. Max wrote:

    submerging multitudes in a sea of theological blunder

    Guiding the lot in the wrong direction.
    Seeker, beware.

  200. @ mot:

    “I’m living on borrowed time as a Southern Baptist Pastor. My church people and I work well together as I love them and try to serve them the best I know how, but I would not give you 2 pennies for the 2000 BF&M, I no longer support the Lottie Moon or Annie Armstrong offerings.”
    +++++++++++++++

    you are good person, mot. i admire and respect you very much. i feel the tension of this rock & a hard place. what do you think of the idea of changing denominations? i know change is hard, especially when there are positive established relationships.

  201. elastigirl wrote:

    @ SureWhyNot?:
    “Wouldn’t things be so much easier if there were one–JUST ONE–Bible scripture that read, “Any man who treats his wife viciously shall lose his wife, and she is free to remarry.”
    Just one. SO simple. At the risk of sounding blasphemous, this scripture would have saved a gender from centuries of conflict and belittling.”
    +++++++++++++
    yes, would be helpful. i imagine “viciously” would end up being redefined with a number of loopholes, though.
    i can think of a number of things in the bible which, if they had been phrased differently or excluded altogether, would have eliminated much unnecessary burden, relational dysfunction, and harm.

    There is a verse that tells you not to be ‘harsh’ with your wife. That tells you to love her. Etc.

    It’s just that they consider the marriage/divorce stuff more important. I think the bible is clear that love is prioritized but people being people, they are going to take what they like and emphasize it.

  202. ishy wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    As we saw with Marie, those pastors told her they were going to give her counseling, but it was really an interrogation. Their concept of “biblical counseling” and chains of accountability are really the same thing. It’s to keep people in line.

    I’ll add that they say they won’t let members leave if they are “in church discipline”. Dee was posting on Twitter about some of the churches she found that had that in their rules. So, like in Marie’s case, they chase people down and try to break them down. It’s not legal, but I don’t think many people realize that.

    Add to that the fact that expressing the intention or merely the desire to leave is grounds for being put under church discipline (one of the unwritten rules in our old church) and you can’t win for losing.

  203. Gram3 wrote:

    I think the real power that they have is the threat of the removal of your social network. Perhaps your main social network. And if you have kids, one of their main social networks

    No you’re right. I almost went into that, but I thought it would clutter my point lol!

    They have social power, but again, that’s only if it’s granted by the congregation. Pastor bob can tell the whole congregation to shun you, but if they ignore him he can’t do a thing about it except kick them all out and try to start again.

    All the power comes from the people, ultimately, even the social power.

  204. @ Lea:

    “Also, it bugs me how these men never seem to think enough time has passed. There is literally no amount of time to ‘wait and see if he changes’ that would be enough for them.”
    +++++++++++

    ha… stringing them along to avoid the blight of a divorce on their ministry record.

    they don’t seem to realize how transparent they are. it’s all about them.

  205. Gram3 wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    All they have is shaming and guilt tripping, they have no real functional power.

    I think the real power that they have is the threat of the removal of your social network. Perhaps your main social network. And if you have kids, one of their main social networks. And if you are concerned about having your kids in a “good” environment and “flourishing,” you are concerned about keeping them plugged in there. Generic you.

    Nailed it. This is a big part of what kept us captive for years. We didn’t want to remove our kids from their social network, the same network of smug hypocrisy and veiled cruelty that ultimately drove them to embrace atheism.

  206. Lea wrote:

    Also, it bugs me how these men never seem to think enough time has passed. There is literally no amount of time to ‘wait and see if he changes’ that would be enough for them.

    So if in the case here 20 years wasn’t enough time, then the “right” amount of time apparently must be measured in decades rather than years.

  207. elastigirl wrote:

    they don’t seem to realize how transparent they are. it’s all about them.

    Yes! Especially when they were all, you only gave it two months!! Waa!

    Wrong. She gave it years. Why would two months make any difference if someone refuses to change?

  208. elastigirl wrote:

    since you come from christian academia, where & how is this taught? i understand it is probably all in the realm of subtle wordsmithing. i’d be interested to hear your experience & observations in more detail.

    They had a certification program while I was there. It was taken out after I left, and the nouthetic program put in. And I met with the head of that department for a year while trying to get accepted to a mission agency, and he was a very honest, straightforward counselor. In fact, it was the mission agency counselor that was a bit cuckoo with similar ideas, though I think he was more charismatic word of faith, and my counselor said he was nuts after they debated on it for months. LOL

    But I did meet a few people who were very much “All secular counseling is bad”, and many more who really believed a few Bible verses could fix all problems. Most of them had major life problems of their own, and never should have been allowed to go into ministry, but Baptists were sadly pretty lax about that even then.

    Many Christian books for a long time are formulas for quick life fixes, and I think a lot of churches have allowed beliefs like that to persist without confronting them. I don’t believe Christians should always be gentle in dealing with problems, and I do think Christians need a lot more honesty, but at the same time, sometimes people need medical help or help from multiple sources not just in the church. I know from a lifetime of health problems that our bodies can be very unbalanced, and I’ve been a devoted Christian for many years, but I still have those problems. Pretending like they aren’t there just because it makes some Christians uncomfortable is a lie, and it’s wrong.

  209. @ ishy:

    “Now I’m wondering how much of their pressure was Kevin wanting a prime, likely very edited example for his doctoral dissertation.”
    +++++++++++++++

    this seems quite probable to me. if true, dang, so incredibly revolting.
    —————-

    “And of course, it couldn’t be of a man because what man in their congregation would actually want to change? Men go to neo-Calvinist churches to be told that God lets them do whatever they want.”
    +++++++++++++

    christian leaders (generally speaking) seem to have 2 views of women:

    –as convenient pawns

    –as terrifying threats

  210. @ ishy:

    Thanks for taking the time with your thoughtful reply.

    Have you ever witnessed this or heard about it second hand:

    “They teach pastors to pressure members toward biblical counseling any time someone is not fully in compliance.”

  211. @ Lea:

    “They have social power, but again, that’s only if it’s granted by the congregation. Pastor bob can tell the whole congregation to shun you, but if they ignore him he can’t do a thing about it except kick them all out and try to start again.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    i long to hear of a congregation literally standing up en masse and saying “No. It is wrong.”

    you know, critical mass has to start somewhere… with one person.

    but there will be others who share the same conviction. it takes one person, just one person as a catalyst to draw the others out.

  212. elastigirl wrote:

    you know, critical mass has to start somewhere… with one person.

    This may have something to do with the bystander effect and so on. If one person did stand up and say something out loud, what would happen? Sometimes people just need a leader.

    And other times people do things in secret, or they simply don’t know what’s happened until it happens to them, which is why this style of authoritarian is so keen on keeping people from freely sharing information. But that doesn’t seem biblical to me at all! Shining a light on the truth, that is what we should be about. Anything done in secret is suspect.

  213. elastigirl wrote:

    Have you ever witnessed this or heard about it second hand:
    “They teach pastors to pressure members toward biblical counseling any time someone is not fully in compliance.”

    Just read the story above. That’s exactly what HBC did to Marie. They told her it was counseling, but it was an interrogation to get her to go back to her husband.

    Sadly, a former church of mine has things like this plastered all over their website:
    “Show your commitment by posting on our Facebook page once a week.”
    “Commit to reading our blog every week.”

    with…
    “By signing our covenant you commit to the pastors’ guidance and direction, and to their counseling and discipline when problems arise.”

    The neo-Calvinists call it “biblical counseling”, but I don’t believe there’s very much counseling involved at all.

  214. elastigirl wrote:

    you know, critical mass has to start somewhere… with one person.
    but there will be others who share the same conviction. it takes one person, just one person as a catalyst to draw the others out.

    I think it needs to start with pastors informing their congregations about it, but it was dead silence at my last SBC church, and I KNOW that pastor is uncomfortable with the neo-Calvinists.

    Many Southern Baptists aren’t even aware that their leadership have mostly dumped Christ from their theology.

  215. ishy wrote:

    “Show your commitment by posting on our Facebook page once a week.”

    This is just silly. What are you proving by that?

  216. elastigirl wrote:

    Have you ever witnessed this or heard about it second hand:
    “They teach pastors to pressure members toward biblical counseling any time someone is not fully in compliance.”

    Ah, you mean evidence they teaching this at SBTS and SEBTS? We know what the neo-Calvinists believe, because if anything, they are quite prolific on social media. Dee wrote quite a good post on their views of members: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/11/06/9-marks-and-grace-to-you-you-dumb-sheep-cant-last-without-an-approved-church-to-protect-you/

    But there is class at Southern called “Reformational Counseling” that is required for all counseling students. I think the name speaks for itself.
    http://www.sbts.edu/bgs/degree-programs/mdiv/biblical-counseling/

  217. Lea wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    “Show your commitment by posting on our Facebook page once a week.”
    //
    This is just silly. What are you proving by that?

    I messaged Dee after I found this, totally freaked out, as she knows that church (it’s by SEBTS). I was there when that pastor was hired, and he made himself out to be as middle-ground as you can get. It’s terrifying!

  218. @ Gram3:

    “And if you have kids, one of their main social networks. And if you are concerned about having your kids in a “good” environment and “flourishing,” you are concerned about keeping them plugged in there.”
    +++++++++++++

    (continuing to read upwards here, commenting all the way…)

    my feeling is that it is unwise to “put all your eggs in one [social] basket”.

    my time in 1st Church Of Dysfunction had us so busy we didn’t have opportunity to cultivate relationships anywhere else. But even if we had the time, we were so conditioned to view the ‘outside world’ with grave suspicion.

    over time, the church shrunk until there were only a handful of people left.

    all our investment (with time, money, effort, and socially). gone. poof.

    since then, i make sure my kids & I have a wide social arena, capitalizing on our neighborhood first. the people we rub shoulders with every day. what fabulous human beings are within the 1/2 mile radius of where we live.

    i have found that people everywhere are good, moral, kind, honest. i can’t think of any good reason whatsoever not to invest socially in them. so much mutual joy and strength in friendships of all kinds.

  219. elastigirl wrote:

    @ mot:

    “I’m living on borrowed time as a Southern Baptist Pastor. My church people and I work well together as I love them and try to serve them the best I know how, but I would not give you 2 pennies for the 2000 BF&M, I no longer support the Lottie Moon or Annie Armstrong offerings.”
    +++++++++++++++

    you are good person, mot. i admire and respect you very much. i feel the tension of this rock & a hard place. what do you think of the idea of changing denominations? i know change is hard, especially when there are positive established relationships.

    I think this might eventually happen.

  220. Dee, from the blog post:

    “How can the pastors at one church claim that someone (like Marie) is NOT a believer while the pastors at another church claims she is indeed a Christian, that they are supporting her, and that they totally disagree with the former church’s position. Who gets to decide?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Marie. (all the other yapping can be ignored)
    ———————-

    Dee, from the blog post:

    “What happens when you have two churches with diametrically opposed positions on someone like Marie? Who is right and who holds the keys to the kingdom?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    Marie. Circumstances like Marie’s are too complex to be subjected to any church’s or individual’s supposed ‘biblical’ legislation.

    as to the keys to the kingdom, my belief is that all in whom the Holy Spirit resides hold them, for the purposes of addressing the parallel spiritual world. ie- When my son & i felt some kind of dark/cold/foreign presence in his bedroom, we both stood up, opened the window, read a few verses, sang a bit, then emphatically ordered it to leave immediately, making it clear we did not permit it to hang around. This is nothing special or unusual, just standard operating procedure. and not science either — always attendant mystery.

    i’m really astonished and appalled that the likes of these 9 Marxists claim these “keys” for themselves.

  221. Gram3 wrote:

    And if you are concerned about having your kids in a “good” environment and “flourishing,” you are concerned about keeping them pl

    John Piper has caused me to despise the word “flourishing”!
    From one of his articles:
    “From all of this, I conclude that God has given Christianity a masculine feel. And, being a God of love, he has done it for the maximum flourishing of men and women. He did not create women to languish, or be frustrated, or in any way to suffer or fall short of full and lasting joy, in a masculine Christianity. She is a fellow heir of the grace of life (1 Peter 3:7). From which I infer that the fullest flourishing of women and men takes place in churches and families where Christianity has this God-ordained, masculine feel. For the sake of the glory of women, and for the sake of the security and joy of children, God has made Christianity to have a masculine feel. He has ordained for the church a masculine ministry.”

  222. Nancy2 wrote:

    From which I infer that the fullest flourishing of women and men takes place in churches and families where Christianity has this God-ordained, masculine feel. For the sake of the glory of women, and for the sake of the security and joy of children, God has made Christianity to have a masculine feel. He has ordained for the church a masculine ministry.”

    Not one bit of this masculine feel junk is supported by Scripture. And it is surely not supported at all by research.

  223. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    “You cannot get to the search function from the home page (which I find suspicious), but you can get to it if you do an internet search on RightNow Media along with a famous Christian name.”
    +++++++++++
    so, i’m wondering if a church can choose what resources to make available to the people in their churches. only allowing certain things.
    so much policing. thought-policing. the fact that this seems to be the norm is very troubling. (how many very’s am i allowed to use?)

    Yes, churches can choose what materials on RightNow media are available to “their” subscribers.

  224. Lea wrote:

    SureWhyNot

    Lea wrote:

    There is a verse that tells you not to be ‘harsh’ with your wife. That tells you to love her. Etc.

    It’s just that they consider the marriage/divorce stuff more important. I think the bible is clear that love is prioritized but people being people, they are going to take what they like and emphasize it.

    I know:(. The church looks so foolish to the world. These divorce issues are the worst form of evangelism. We are supposed to believe that the secular world can’t get its act together–that its totally hopeless without God. And then we have idiotic scandals like this where we can’t protect women, or children for that matter. And we make marriage look so miserable, and unaccountable to common sense. A real win for Christianity.

    I know most of these pastors are thinking, “Ah well, we didn’t win this round. But that woman is going to hell. And we’re going to wear a crown of gold in heaven for protecting Scripture.”

    But all they’re really doing is making “heaven” sound unpalatable to the rest of us.

  225. @ Ken F:

    Pretty much my assessment too. The site is long on state-of-the-art web design with glitzy visuals, but little or no substance. Definitely not for inquiring minds.
    …Where’s the beef???

  226. elastigirl wrote:

    my time in 1st Church Of Dysfunction had us so busy we didn’t have opportunity to cultivate relationships anywhere else. But even if we had the time, we were so conditioned to view the ‘outside world’ with grave suspicion.

    ‘Isolating’ with the use of ‘fear of the outside world’ is a ‘must’ for those seeking to control the narrative and to control people:
    a classic ‘cult’ tactic a la Jim Jones

    we see in the ‘culture’ today a lot of stirring up of fear of ‘the government’, the ‘media’, and even the intelligence community …… two guesses where this is leading and what it is leading to

  227. Christiane wrote:

    we see in the ‘culture’ today a lot of stirring up of fear of ‘the government’, the ‘media’, and even the intelligence community …… two guesses where this is leading and what it is leading to

    I never put trust in in huge systems anymore no matter who is in power. Some fear is healthy as to not be lemmings and believe everything one is told. Like affordable health care and the IRS. Questioning is good and healthy.

  228. Christiane wrote:

    we see in the ‘culture’ today a lot of stirring up of fear of ‘the government’, the ‘media’, and even the intelligence community …… two guesses where this is leading and what it is leading to

    Yes, well, the last 15 years of my long work life I worked for the U S Dept. of Veterans Affairs. Three guesses how I think/feel about any sort of just blindly trusting the government to do the right thing. They cannot even when the want to in some areas.

    There is that old idea in religion about the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. I worked with a lot of good people during my time as a gov employee, but that segment of the system is broken. There is no salvation by government alone.

  229. Gram3 wrote:

    I think the real power that they have is the threat of the removal of your social network. Perhaps your main social network. And if you have kids, one of their main social networks. And if you are concerned about having your kids in a “good” environment and “flourishing,” you are concerned about keeping them plugged in there. Generic you.

    I know parents at a nearby SBC-YRR church plant who go to church there, knowing that the theology is questionable, because their children would not go to church anywhere else … they like the cool band and hip “lead pastor.” I’ve been there – I would not call it a good environment where folks flourish (maybe in the flesh, but not the Spirit).

  230. elastigirl wrote:

    RightNow Media is a propaganda machine, merely channeling the loudest christian powerbrokers.

    No doubt about it. When you check it out, you will see it is promoted by one of the New Calvinist who’s who … RED FLAG!

    “It’s like the Netflix of Christian Bible study.” (Matt Chandler, Lead Pastor of the Village Church in Dallas, TX and Acts 29 President)

    The New Calvinists are masters at using social media and related resources to advance their movement.

  231. Christiane wrote:

    we see in the ‘culture’ today a lot of stirring up of fear of ‘the government’, the ‘media’, and even the intelligence community …… two guesses where this is leading and what it is leading to

    My reaction is this is a partisan statement that distracts from the conversation.

  232. Nancy2 wrote:

    “He has ordained for the church a masculine ministry.” (John Piper)

    No He hasn’t!

    “But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be” (1 Cor 12:18).

    The Church of the Living God is not to be characterized by the way it “feels” by race, class or gender!

    “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).

    Piper needs to flush most of what he teaches! It just ain’t right!

  233. Max wrote:

    The New Calvinists are masters at using social media and related resources to advance their movement.

    They started early with the explosion of social media. They had the financial resources and platforms of the SBC/Lifeway through Mohler to exploit. Ed Setzer was a real mover and shaker in this area during his Lifeway tenure as the church planting guru. They have silly titles like “Content Strategist” they give to young guys like Barnabas Piper. They blanketed the internet. The same platform the peasants now use to tell their horror stories from dealings with them.

  234. Max wrote:

    I know parents at a nearby SBC-YRR church plant who go to church there, knowing that the theology is questionable, because their children would not go to church anywhere else …

    Yes! We have good friends who are still going to the controlling, abusive, woman-stifling church we left, because they don’t want to split their family and it is the only church their older (adult and teen) children will attend. And *religiously* attend, with the full pharaseeical meaning of “religiously” used there.

  235. Lydia wrote:

    They started early with the explosion of social media … The same platform the peasants now use to tell their horror stories from dealings with them.

    Such things have a way of coming full circle. We can only hope that this same platform will bring an end to the movement.

  236. Bill M wrote:

    My reaction is this is a partisan statement that distracts from the conversation.

    Agree on that, though I continue to disagree (very politely) with you on the nature of Matt Chandler’s apology to Karen Hinckley. 🙂

  237. Max wrote:

    I would not call it a good environment where folks flourish

    To be clear, I detest the word which I first heard from Tim Keller. It makes me cringe almost as much as “joyful” because I know it is likely being used to mask something. I hear you on the youth. One of our many painful church memories is visiting one of our childhood churches to find that it had become the religious equivalent of a circus of crazy.

  238. Max wrote:

    We can only hope that this same platform will bring an end to the movement.

    Yes. The more they write the more they expose their errors and the more they indict themselves. There is already enough on the web and bookstores to completely discredit them for anyone willing to take the time to string together the details.

    Proverbs 10:19 – “When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.”

  239. SureWhyNot? wrote:

    I know most of these pastors are thinking, “Ah well, we didn’t win this round. But that woman is going to hell. And we’re going to wear a crown of gold in heaven for protecting Scripture.”

    But all they’re really doing is making “heaven” sound unpalatable to the rest of us.

    I have zero desire to wear a crown or to “rule over” others. And yes, their “heaven” is to me very unpalatable:

    The dog is a gentleman; I hope to go to his heaven not man’s”
    — Mark Twain —

  240. Gram3 wrote:

    Max wrote:

    I would not call it a good environment where folks flourish

    To be clear, I detest the word which I first heard from Tim Keller.

    Well, you certainly won’t “flourish” listening to Tim Keller! Keller talks in circles worse than Piper. He can’t even give you a clear presentation of the Gospel when asked to do so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0g-s4Qhtyk

  241. Lydia wrote:

    Ed Setzer was a real mover and shaker in this area during his Lifeway tenure as the church planting guru.

    Mr. Stetzer moved and shook himself out of Lifeway, but not before he helped Mohler with his mission to Calvinize the SBC! For those of you who haven’t heard, Mr. Stetzer is now Executive Director of the Billy Graham Center for Evangelism at Wheaton College. Evangelism?!! Can a New Calvinist at-heart truly evangelize?! Of course, Stetzer may now be a non-Calvinist … some of these guys are chameleons.

  242. Gram3 wrote:

    though I continue to disagree (very politely) with you on the nature of Matt Chandler’s apology to Karen Hinckley.

    If you happen back to this thread I would be interested on your take over on the “Open Discussion”.

  243. Muff Potter wrote:

    SureWhyNot? wrote:

    I know most of these pastors are thinking, “Ah well, we didn’t win this round. But that woman is going to hell. And we’re going to wear a crown of gold in heaven for protecting Scripture.”

    But all they’re really doing is making “heaven” sound unpalatable to the rest of us.

    I have zero desire to wear a crown or to “rule over” others. And yes, their “heaven” is to me very unpalatable:

    The dog is a gentleman; I hope to go to his heaven not man’s”
    — Mark Twain —

    Remember that Far Side cartoon where “through some unfortunate celestial mix-up, Ernie is sent to hog heaven?”

  244. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    Yes, this is very disturbing. Moore shut down the (pretty excellent) state certified counseling program at SBTS and replaced it with some hogwash “biblical counseling” nonsense. I still can’t figure out if this was an attempt to sugar o’er the devil himself, or wallpapering the inability to maintain accreditation following the fundamentalist purge.

    So, SBTS went from a state certified counseling program to Nouthetic counseling which basically disqualifies them from counseling anywhere except in a church. What a waste of money for anyone paying for that kind of counseling. Can I call this a dumb move?

  245. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele

    I wonder if this “counseling” is like Scientology–if they find out you have taken “evil psych drugz,” you’re disqualified from their services?
    Conversely, I could see their “counseling” of a person with an undiagnosed psychiatric condition could be problematic at best, and could lead to disaster at the worst. If these people were licensed by the state (and I bet they’re not, at least not the 19 ACBC types in Arizona), it would be malpractice to not refer them to a psychiatrist. But they’re hiding behind religion and destroying lives in the process.
    What scares me is that there may be some of those ACBC types counseling people to throw away their medications. That can be disastrous.

    I also wonder what happens to a person who begins Nouthetic Counseling in one of these churches and decides it isn’t helping them so they decide to get professional counseling instead. Are they treated like people who leave their churches without *permission* – disciplined & excommunicated if they don’t tow the line.

  246. Lea wrote:

    I think the bible is clear that love is prioritized but people being people, they are going to take what they like and emphasize it.

    And what happens when the word *LOVE* is redefined? That’s a whole ‘nother playing field altogether.

  247. Gram3 wrote:

    Max wrote:
    I would not call it a good environment where folks flourish
    To be clear, I detest the word which I first heard from Tim Keller. It makes me cringe almost as much as “joyful” because I know it is likely being used to mask something.

    And we must not forget *winsome* and *robust.* 😉

  248. Darlene wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    I think the bible is clear that love is prioritized but people being people, they are going to take what they like and emphasize it.

    And what happens when the word *LOVE* is redefined?

    Nya ha ha, My Dear Wormwood…

  249. Darlene wrote:

    So, SBTS went from a state certified counseling program to Nouthetic counseling which basically disqualifies them from counseling anywhere except in a church.

    Feature, not Bug.
    Ensures loyalty to Pastor (and Calvin).
    Where else can they go?