Heritage Bible Chapel Admonishes a Former Member to Repent or Else…

"Marie, we love you in Christ and our hearts ache for the consequences of your choices in your own life and in your family. We are praying that God would lift the blinding effects of your sin and help you to recognize your sin and repent of it so that you might be restored."

HBC Elders (in letter below)

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=4031&picture=holy-bible

Holy Bible

How reprehensible that during this Christmas season the Board of Elders at Heritage Bible Chapel are making an incredible demand of Marie, whose testimony we featured in our post entitled Are Pastors at Heritage Bible Chapel Re-Abusing Wives Harmed in Abusive Marriages?

To recap the story, Marie married a native Bulgarian, and during their 20 years of marriage she endured terrible emotional and psychological abuse, which became increasingly worse. Here is an excerpt from the previous post:

Desperate to get away from the tyranny, Marie gave up almost all of the assets to which she was entitled in a mediated divorce. On February 1, 2016, Marie left with her car and personal belongings.  

In March 2016, Marie went to her two pastors and told them she had left her ex-husband and that divorce papers had been signed weeks earlier. She explained that she and her ex-husband had already done months of biblical counseling in 2014. Within months after those counseling sessions, her then-husband reverted back to his abusive behavior and attitude towards Marie, not seeing any issues with his behavior. Marie's pastors were surprised by this news regarding her troubled marriage and impending divorce, but seemed understanding and compassionate.

Eight days later, Marie's pastors asked her to meet with them to “answer a few questions”. The meeting turned into a two-hour interrogation. The pastors' minds were already made up before she entered the room that “abuse, even physical abuse, is never biblical grounds for divorce”. (It should be noted that there are MANY biblical counselors and pastors who do not agree with this position.)

In the months that followed, the pastors expressed their desire that Marie and her ex-husband work toward reconciliation. Given that the couple had done biblical counseling two years earlier which did not help, Marie had no desire to reconcile with her abusive ex. 

On September 28, 2016, Marie sent a certified letter to Heritage Bible Chapel resigning her membership. As an American citizen, Marie is free to associate or disassociate with a voluntary organization. There was also a signed return receipt, indicating that the letter had indeed been received by the church. The letter Marie sent was very similar to the sample letter included in a TWW post published almost five years ago. It is entitled How to Mimimize Damage When Resigning from a Mark Driscoll-like Church.

On October 14, 2016, the HBC elders sent Marie an email response, which included the following:

The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these. 

Marie did not respond to this email. Over a month went by, and the elders sent Marie the following correspondence:


Letter to Marie Notcheva

Page 2

Letter to Marie Notcheva

Page 3

Letter to Marie Notcheva

Page 4

Letter to Marie Notcheva


Keep in mind that Marie resigned from her church on September 28, 2016, by certified letter. What don't these elders understand???

So according to the above church correspondence, if Marie doesn't change her ‘heart’ condition and repent of her ‘sinful choices’ by December 23, 2016, HBC elders will hold a church-wide meeting in which they will tell their version of events, and Marie will be publicly chastised.

The church refuses to recognize the divorce, claiming that abuse does not constitute grounds for divorce.  For ten long months they relentlessly pressured Marie to pursue reconciliation. It was her understanding that any eventual reconciliation would be contingent upon her abuser’s confession of the abuse, repentance, and subsequent changed heart and life; but sadly just the opposite has happened. Nevertheless, Marie is the one painted as being ‘in sin’ (and therefore subject to church discipline).

Her ex-husband, bolstered by the support of his church, continues to intimidate, humiliate, and smash Marie down any and every chance he gets. Her ex-husband has successfully manipulated and swayed the pastors at Heritage Bible Chapel to his cause. Unfortunately, conservative churches seem predisposed to believe the man (especially absent physical abuse), no matter how much testimony and specific data/documentation the woman produces in her own defense.  

Marie wishes she didn’t have to share her testimony; however, what choice does she have?  In January 2017, these men will call a meeting in the church where Marie served for eleven years; raised her children; counseled hurting women, and taught Bible studies. They will spin their side of the story, which is full of half-truths, misinformation, and twisting of the truth. Therefore, she is telling her side of what happened. It is her fervent prayer that this will help prevent further church-sanctioned castigation of abused women.

Last Friday Dee Made a Phone Call…

Lest any of our readers think we are springing all of this on the pastors and elders of Heritage Bible Chapel without their prior knowledge, let us put your minds at ease. At Marie's request, Dee phoned the church last Friday and spoke with Pastor Tim. She introduced herself and our blog and said that we would rather not write about Marie's situation. If they would withdraw their demands of Marie and leave her alone as her resignation letter requested, all of this could be put to rest. Dee said to Pastor Tim something along these lines: 

You do understand that this situation is pretty bad, and it's not going to look good for your church if we publish Marie's story.  Is this the hill you want to die on?

She told him that if he wished to make a statement, we would publish it verbatim either as a stand alone post or as an update to a post. Dee also told him that he is more than welcome to leave a comment under the post regarding Marie's story.

To that Tim responded: "I do not think that would be wise."

She also asked Tim whether he knew that 9Marks is loosening their stance on congregants leaving their churches and urged him to contact Jonathan Leeman. 

Hey folks, it's important to remember that in the United States a person has the right to break a contract with a voluntarily association, and that includes churches. Attempting to prevent someone from exercising this right could result in dire consequences…

We are happy to report that Marie is finally in a solid church, receiving Godly counsel and trying to forgive not only her ex-husband, but also her former pastor for the damage he has done.

FINALLY…

In order to bring this matter to a close, the pastors at Heritage Bible Chapel should inform Marie in writing that they are ceasing and desisting their efforts to draw her back into her former church for correction and to begin reconciliation efforts, and they should apologize for the pain they have caused her and her family by this illegal harassment. Otherwise, the next step will be taken…

To brighten Marie's spirit this Christmastide, we are sharing a wonderful rendition by the Vienna Boys' Choir. 

Marie, may you feel God's love during this wonderful Christmas season when we celebrate the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Comments

Heritage Bible Chapel Admonishes a Former Member to Repent or Else… — 743 Comments

  1. What a despicable church and despicable pastors/elders. It’s high time that these types of pastors/elders be arrested and prosecuted for the likes of criminal conspiracy (an agreement among 2 or more persons to commit a criminal act), stalking, and other crimes. And to be sued in civil courts.

    Not to leave a grown woman alone? Who left?

    It’s just like my ex-pastors/elders at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. They too have engaged in a pattern and practice of criminal harassment, in my opinion, of former church members that should get them arrested as well as sued in civil court.

  2. “…..humbly and faithfully calling you as a wandering sheep to return to the loving arms of the shepherd. ”

    No. The least they could do is speak the truth: “arrogantly and determinedly attempting to force you back as a mere female under the absolute control of the dictator.”

    Extended seperation is okay, but never divorce??? No. That’s just asking for more trouble. Creditors can hold one spouse legally liable for any debts that they cannot pay, or refuse to pay – hospital bills or gambling debts, makes no difference.

    Marie has to do what she needs to do to protect herself and heal. After 20 years of abuse and failed counciling, what else is left for her to do? These narcissists (who eat untold amounts of their manly food) do more harm than good. They seem to know that, but don’t care. To them, it doesn’t matter what a husband does to his wife. As long as he doesn’t commit adultery, she has to bear it.

  3. I counted 15 times in that letter where the word sin/sins/sinful was referred to Marie.
    It’s not just her ex-husband that’s abusing her.

  4. Tim Cochrell, Brian Keogh, Pete Monaghan, Kevin Wright, and Arnie VanDoren;
    How would your marriages fare if your wives treated you, FOR.TWENTY.LONG.MISERABLE.YEARS, the way Marie’s husband treated her, and continued to treat you that way no matter what???

  5. I’ve not finished all the OP yet. I just glanced over the, what is it, four page? long screen shots of their letter or e-mail. I’ve not read that yet, either – I’m just seeing four long pages of stuff.

    I am just dumb founded and shocked that they sent her a FOUR PAGE long, single spaced, in tiny font no less, correspondence to someone just for resigning from their church.

    That right there is a tip-off to me that something is horribly wrong.

    That reply from them is much too long, which means they must spend at least 80% of it lecturing her, shaming her, and telling her what they think she “ought” to do (I am just guessing at this point).

    I will now go back and finish reading the entire O.P.

    I just had to pause to say I find the church’s four page long, small font, single- spaced response total over-kill.

  6. Folks, we've been sounding the alarm about these Neo-Cal, elder-led, authoritarian-based churches.

    Please, please think twice before getting involved with one of these kinds of churches!

  7. I am still reading my way down the church’s insanely long, scoldy letter. I’m about 3/4th down page 1 of it so far.

    I’ve spotted a run-on sentence in one of their paragraphs on that page. That missing comma is driving me a bit nuts. Anyway.

    It appears to me as though this church is equating Marie divorcing her abusive husband and/or leaving their church as being the same as her leaving Jesus.
    They need to get over themselves.

    (I refer to the parts where they refer to Marie as a lost sheep who they want to return to The Shepherd, they want to draw her heart back to the Lord, etc.)

    Just because she decided to leave their church does not mean she’s turned into an apostate.

  8. ‘Repentance of her sin’ they say in their letter. -What sin?

    All she did was want out of an abusive marriage and to leave their church. Those are not sins.

    Regarding the first part on the page where they are biting Marie’s head off for wanting to leave the husband (Ivo) without seeking any more input from the church about that choice – well, she’s lived with the abuse for around 20 years.

    Abusers like this do not change, and I think after 20 years, she came to that realization.

    How I’ve seen this play out with other women in the same/ similar situations:

    If Marie sat around and dealt with the church’s ineffective “leadership,” advice, and counsel, she’d just be spinning her wheels for years and years (and years…)

    While they played the game of pretending to “counsel” Ivo (with tactics that don’t work), and Ivo would pretend to play along with them while continuing to abuse her in private.

    My guess is that she’s already been through TWENTY YEARS of it and did not want to go through another 20 (or 10, or 5 or another six months) while the church fiddled around.

  9. Daisy wrote:

    Just because she decided to leave their church does not mean she’s turned into an apostate.

    Exactly! She is being spiritually nourished in a loving and caring congregation. God bless them!

  10. I am still reading my way down the church’s letter….

    Re: Page 2. I don’t think her divorce is unbiblical or that her reason cited was unbiblical. I also don’t think the Bible teaches in the “permanence of marriage” view.

    The church is in error for expecting the victim of abuse to be 50% responsible for the relationship, which this church does on page 2.

    Even in books on workplace harassment (of which I’ve read a billion), you never do that, the experts say. The abuser alone bears the burden for changing and fixing things.

    Abuse or harassment in marriage or on the job is not a 50/50 deal.

    God and Ivo the spouse had 20 years to get or cause Ivo to repent. Marie gave the guy 20 YEARS. That is more than long enough.

    The church never proved that Marie “flagrantly transgressed clear commands of Scripture.” I do not grant them that premise, so I don’t grant them the conclusions that flow from it.
    They need to first prove she “flagrantly transgressed clear commands of Scripture.”

    This will come down to their interpretation of what the Bible says about divorce vs. what other Christians think such verses mean. I think the interpretations that allow for divorce in cases of abuse are just as valid.

    The church talks a lot in one paragraph about Marie meeting with Ivo or returning to him in order to facilitate his repentance or change of heart.

    That sort of thing is the Holy Spirit’s job, not another human being’s, but complementarian type churches are always demanding that wives play the part of “Holy Spirit” to a husband – but the Bible does not assign that tremendous duty to women or wives.

    Getting the husband to change, soften, or become Godly and non-abusive is NOT the wife’s responsibility. And her staying married to the guy is not going to magically change him.

  11. Thank you, Deb. I applaud Marie for her courage in standing up to these so-called “shepherds”. By leaving her husband, Marie was, in fact, getting out and away from sin (her husband’s)!

  12. Re: part 3 of their letter.
    It’s America, pastor Tim and HBC Church. Marie can go on social media and rant about the crummy non-support she’s getting from her church if she wants to. I don’t blame her, seeing what y’all put her through.

    From what I gleaned from part 1 of this blog’s coverage of this story, the church initially said all the right-sounding things to Marie; they SOUNDED as though they would sincerely help her resolve things, but through their ACTIONS, they showed this was not so.

  13. Still reading under part 3 of the church’s letter…
    Regarding the portion where the church complains about how each of their (insert eye roll here) “gentle, loving” letters to Marie was, each time, met with a cease and desist type letter from Marie or her attorney-

    Wowzers. This church is like that creepy guy who, because you loaned him a pen once in history class, assumes you are warm for his form, may want to date him, so he’s always there-after following you around all over school…

    Even though you’ve told him 100 times you’re not interested in him like that, will he please leave you alone already ???

    (It’s called stalking, HBC church – you are acting like a teen-aged boy with a crush who won’t take the hint and buzz off.)

    From part 3, by the church:

    However, if you will not reengage in conversation or repent of your own sinful response then we are called to continue to pursue you.

    This part sounds like it could have been the basis for the 1980s Sci-Fi movie “The Terminator,” the film about the cyborg villain character from the future who was programmed to find Sarah Connor.

    If your church sounds like the T-800 cyborg from that movie, that should be your first clue your notion of “caring for sheep” is way off and has entered Creepy-ville.

    I didn’t get a loving, concerned vibe off this letter, in spite of their sign off that they ‘really do care about Marie.’ Their letter sounds like a slightly stalkerish guy who wants to be a girl’s boyfriend, but she isn’t interested.

    This church is way off base to treat a victim of domestic violence as equally at fault for marital issues as the abuser.

    The church is also at fault to chastize her over her totally understandable reactions, (public and private), to the marital abuse AND to the church’s bumbling handling of the whole thing.

    What this church did to Marie is terrible, and that they are treating the abusive ex husband with kid gloves is positively nauseating to me.

    I am happy to read that Marie is at least now in a more loving, supportive church.

  14. NJ wrote:

    If I may ask, what exactly is the next step?

    Being lied about and slandered by pastors/elders before the entire congregation.

    Having the pastors/elders’ order a ‘sic ’em meeting at church with all church members
    to ‘pursue’ the person, basically stalk and harass them.

    It happened at my ex-church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, to a married, middle-aged, godly, professional woman who wanted to leave for a saner church.
    The senior pastor accused her before everyone (she wasn’t there) of “not being submissive to her husband” or “to the elders”. She’s a grown woman and a tax payer and a voter. She can leave a bizarre church whenever she wants, but alas they didn’t think so.

    The woman at my ex-church told me she was screamed at by pastors/elders who visited her home and did same to her, besides screaming at her in meetings at church. The harassment got so bad that she had to move out of the family home, disconnect her cell phone, and disconnect her email.

    I think the pastors/elders at these churches should be arrested and prosecuted for criminal conspiracy, assault (the threat; battery is a completed assault), stalking,
    and a variety of other charges.

    We build jails and prisons in this country for the likes of these thugs at these churches.

  15. “Marie, we love you in Christ and our hearts ache for the consequences of your choices in your own life and in your family. We are praying that God would lift the blinding effects of your sin and help you to recognize your sin and repent of it so that you might be restored.”

    I’d like to translate this from christianese to normal English:

    “Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah”

    These guys are not living in reality.

  16. Daisy wrote:

    The church never proved that Marie “flagrantly transgressed clear commands of Scripture.” I do not grant them that premise, so I don’t grant them the conclusions that flow from it.
    They need to first prove she “flagrantly transgressed clear commands of Scripture.”

    Good grief, they are the ones ‘flagrantly transgressing’ every shred of honesty and common decency. The Spanish Inquisition is alive and well!

  17. siteseer wrote:

    I’d like to translate this from christianese to normal English:
    “Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah”
    These guys are not living in reality.

    I also think this is equally accurate:

    “Blah blah blah blah …. My programming has instructed me I must bring you back to Sky Net, where, after you are interrogated, you will be terminated…. blah blah blah blah blah”

  18. How do these pastors not see emotional and psychological abuse as abandonment? It seems that their premise that this divorce is not based on abandonment allows them to consider Marie to be “in sin.”

    Why are the pastors arbitrators of a marriage that they have not lived in for 20 years?

    Nowhere in scripture does it say:

    – Husbands and wives cannot divorce without their pastors’ permission.

    – Women and men cannot leave a church body.

    – Men and women cannot know and respond to the sin in their spouse’s life without their pastor’s permission.

    – Men and women are subjects to their pastors.

    – Pastor’s act in God’s place.

    – Husbands and wives can separate for life, if necessary, but never divorce.

    I’m sorry that this has been so difficult for you, Marie. I wish these pastors could see past the letter of the law.

  19. Velour wrote:

    NJ wrote:
    If I may ask, what exactly is the next step?
    Being lied about and slandered by pastors/elders before the entire congregation.
    Having the pastors/elders’ order a ‘sic ’em meeting at church with all church members
    to ‘pursue’ the person, basically stalk and harass them.

    Bingo. Which is not going to happen. But if it does, guess who has two thumbs and is going to walk away from this a very wealthy woman? Yup. That would be me. 🙂 The one who “sinned” by leaving an abusive marriage and had the nerve to stand up for herself to these bullies.

  20. Thugs. Five men against one woman.

    Six, including Ivo.

    Six men pooling their combined ire in a dedicated, determined assault on Marie.

  21. Remnant wrote:

    Thugs. Five men against one woman.

    Six, including Ivo.

    Six men pooling their combined ire in a dedicated, determined assault on Marie.

    They operate on the assumption that I’m afraid of them. I’m not. When someone tries to intimidate you, but you can see right through them and expose them, it rather ruins the effect.

    I’m sure these “pastors” assume the average rank-and-file member doesn’t know the Bible well or the law. They have greatly underestimated me…on both counts.

  22. After reading this “love” letter (ed.), I have the same concerns, only now multiplied by 5 (ed.). My blood pressure spiked reading this communique (ed.), and I don’t even know Marie in real life. Marie, I can only imagine the reactions you had upon reading it.

    Marie, if I may, you have said that there was no physical abuse, and I believe you that he did not hit you.

    But what many people don’t realize, even these pastors, is that physically striking is not the only form of physical abuse. Physical INTIMIDATION is a form of physical abuse. If he comes at you with raised fist, yet does not strike you, that counts as physical abuse. If he uses his larger size, or his greater strength, or if he towers over you with the goal to make you cower or give in to him, that is physical abuse because he is using his bodily strength to gain power over you

    And physical intimidation is only a smidgen away from landing a physical blow, and that is a first step towards striking a possible fatal blow. A husband who kills his wife, does not start with pointing a gun, he starts with anger, intimidation, then moves on to striking and ends with pulling the trigger on the gun.

    A pastor who seeks to love a woman who is an abused wife, will help her escape a potentially fatal situation, not try to coerce her into staying with her abuser.

  23. I am sorry to hear of the abuse Marie has suffered from both her ex-husband and her ex-pastors. I am glad to hear she is now in a non-abusive church.

    Chalk this up to more bad spiritual fruit from the 9Marx tree.

    The Deebs have warned people against signing membership contracts or covenants. I would advise anyone looking for a new church to conduct a preliminary internet search. First I would go to the 9Marx website and do a “church search” for the church you are thinking of attending. If the church appears on the 9Marx list I would scratch that church from my list of potential churches to visit. It seems to me that many churches have realized the negative connotations of being on the 9Marx list, therefore they are now refraining from getting their name on the 9Marx website.

    If the church name does not show up on the 9Marx website I would go to the individual church website and see if they require members to sign a membership contract/covenant. If so, I would scratch that church from my list of potential churches to visit.

    A third thing I would look at is the leaders page. If a pastor has been educated at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) or Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) I would be very cautious to attend. Most graduates from these institutions are Neo-Calvinists thoroughly schooled in 9Marx doctrine.

    In the case of Heritage Bible Chapel of Princeton, MA (heritagebiblechapel.org ), they are not listed on the 9Marx church search page, but they do require members to sign a church contract. Additionally, pastor Tim Cochrell “recently earned his Ph.D in Leadership from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.” (What a ringing endorsement for the SBTS doctoral program in Leadership!)

    Additionally, assistant pastor Kevin Wright earned a Masters of Divinity from SEBTS and is currently working on a Doctorate of Ministry in Biblical Counseling at SEBTS.

    I also went to the website of Dayton Avenue Baptist Church in Xenia, OH. This is where Tim Cochrell formerly worked as an assistant pastor. This church is not found on the 9Marx church search page. Jon Young has been the senior pastor there since 2005 and is a graduate of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Buried in the church constitution was the church covenant. It reads nearly verbatim to the church covenant that UCCD has (my former church in Dubai), which in turn is a copy of Mark Dever’s CHBC covenant.

    It is safe to assume that both Heritage Bible Chapel and Dayton Avenue Baptist Church are 9Marx churches, that is, they are attempting to, or have already, implemented all of pope Dever’s 9 Marks of a Healthy Church. Additionally, if these churches have suggested reading lists, or libraries I would bet they have all the 9Marx books recommended.

    As Marie has already proven, Heritage Bible Chapel is toxic. My guess is Dayton Avenue Baptist is also toxic. I believe 9Marx churches are every bit as harmful to Christians as the Shepherding Movement was in the 1970’s.

    Once you have been out of these types of churches for a period of time, you realize just how suffocating they are. Your best course of action is never join one.

  24. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    A third thing I would look at is the leaders page. If a pastor has been educated at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) or Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) I would be very cautious to attend. Most graduates from these institutions are Neo-Calvinists thoroughly schooled in 9Marx doctrine.

    I would amend SEBTS to post-2005 degrees. Southeastern was a very different school before Akin took charge of it. It’s hard to say when Mohler went really hard-core at SBTS, though.

  25. I love your comment that you are not afraid of these big bad wolves. It took courage to escape 20 years of Ivo's aggression. You've also display courage and strength in exposing this spiritual intimidation.

  26. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    First I would go to the 9Marx website and do a “church search” for the church you are thinking of attending.

    Also search on Founders.org and The Gospel Coalition’s site.

  27. This type of abuse is the fruit of a badly twisted view of God. Here is a RC Sproul quote that is easy enough to find on the internet:

    “May the Lord curse you and abandon you. May the Lord keep you in darkness and give you only judgment without grace. May the Lord turn his back upon you and remove his peace from you forever.”

    Here is Tim Challies’ take on that “malediction”:

    “But consider this. Where there are benedictions–good words from the Lord–there must also be maledictions–bad words. As God gives words of blessing to the people to whom he shows favor, he gives words of curse to those who remain in willful rebellion against him.”

    This is from http://www.challies.com/christian-living/gods-forever-favor

    If a person has such a twisted view of God, then it is no surprise that they would abuse people they deem unrepentant, while at the same time believing that their abuse is a godly response. This abuse needs exposure.

  28. Institutional stalking.

    This ‘church’ is acting more like a hired entity to harass Marie, since ‘Ivo’ is now a $upporting (tithing?) member of this ‘church’.

    If this happened to me, I would call on all the powers of the law, the police, and paid personal protection to prevent any more contact with this ‘church’ who is now acting like an extension of the abusive ‘Ivo’ in persecuting Marie.
    And then I would turn it around on this ‘church’ so that they could never do this to another woman again. They are no ‘Church’. They are an abusive lot who see themselves as ‘under-shepard’ replacements for the Holy Spirit and as having over-riding authority to disregard Marie’s private moral conscience and dignity as a human person. No Christian Church can come between a person and their relationship with God Who meets with them in their conscience.

    What a sickeningly terrible story of emotional harassment and abuse. No one should have to go through this hell.

  29. This automatically made me think of the post on Gary Thomas – marriage is to make you holy, not happy.

    If the neo-cals (and others) insist on using an abusive marriage to represent the relationship between Christ and his bride……… something is seriously wrong with them, both spiritually and mentally.

    Marie,
    I am so proud of you for having the courage, knowledge, and wisdom to stand up for yourself against these egomaniacal dictators. I hope that more women trapped in situations similar to yours will draw strength from you. Woman is not just a service animal that God gave to man! Far too many women have been led to believe that nonsense.

  30. That letter was ‘sin,sin,sin,sin,sin’. Sheesh! ‘Yes, it’s bad that your husband treated you terribly, but look at you, having emotions about it’.

    And that threat to take private stuff to the church as a whole is so transparent. Why won’t they just leave her alone?

  31. Nancy2 wrote:

    “…..humbly and faithfully calling you as a wandering sheep to return to the loving arms of the shepherd. ”
    No. The least they could do is speak the truth: “arrogantly and determinedly attempting to force you back as a mere female under the absolute control of the dictator.”

    It’s like if they keep telling her they are really doing this because they care about her she will believe it. They just have to repeat it a few times.

    Hey geniuses? People can read between the lines to your actions. Threatening to gossip about her because she wouldn’t do what she wanted is not loving. Trying to force her back to her husband is not loving. Trying to control her life is not loving. Back off.

  32. Daisy wrote:

    Their letter sounds like a slightly stalkerish guy who wants to be a girl’s boyfriend, but she isn’t interested.

    I hadn’t read your comment before I commented above, but YES, I agree fully with you that ‘stalking’ behavior is written all over their letter to Marie. It’s HORRIBLE.

    These guys are NOT Christian ministers. They are as abusive and controlling as ‘Ivo’ in the way they are attempting to harass Marie further.

    You called it well, Daisy: STALKING

  33. Nancy2 wrote:

    FOR.TWENTY.LONG.MISERABLE.YEARS

    It is so incredibly arrogant of these people to act like they can just wave a magic jesus wand and fix the abusive person. A person will not change until they want to.

  34. siteseer wrote:

    “Marie, we love you in Christ and our hearts ache for the consequences of your choices in your own life and in your family. We are praying that God would lift the blinding effects of your sin and help you to recognize your sin and repent of it so that you might be restored.”
    I’d like to translate this from christianese to normal English:
    “Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah”
    These guys are not living in reality.

    I’ll translate! “Marie, you married the guy so you’re stuck with him. Stop fighting it, that’s a sin’.

  35. Lea wrote:

    Why won’t they just leave her alone?

    if this is out in the public, and they are exposed, and Marie is able to overcome their abuse, then their own power and control over other women in their cult will be weakened …..

    they don’t want this to be exposed … they are afraid of losing control over the women in their perceived ‘control’.

    They are bullies: and in their letter to Marie THEY HAVE EXPOSED THIS TRUTH ABOUT THEMSELVES. (yes, I’m yelling, at 7 in the morning, and I feel better! )

  36. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    They operate on the assumption that I’m afraid of them. I’m not. When someone tries to intimidate you, but you can see right through them and expose them, it rather ruins the effect.

    Indeed. They only have as much power as you give them. They are lashing out because you won’t let them control you.

  37. @ Marie Notcheva:

    So in other words, it would be lawsuit time.

    I can just hear the eventual griping; ” the State is preventing us from doing Biblical discipline”. I wonder if they’ll get a clue or ratchet up the spiritual pressure. There is already an oblique suggestion in their latest letter that Marie may go to hell if she doesn’t repent according to their ideas.

  38. NJ wrote:

    There is already an oblique suggestion in their latest letter that Marie may go to hell if she doesn’t repent according to their ideas.

    I suppose these men feel that if they have the power to tell someone they are saved that they also have the power to tell someone they are damned.

    How little they know.

  39. @ Christiane:
    The reference to “social media” is funny. I blocked those guys (as well as blocking their numbers in my phone) months ago. They basically just admitted they have moles stalking me and reporting back to them.

    Good grief…..can you imagine if I’d actually DONE something wrong? Like have an affair or something? I can’t believe this level of obsession. Trust me; I’m a pretty boring person. I can’t afford most forms of sin…LOL!

  40. @ Lea:
    “our hearts ache for the consequences of your choices in your own life and in your family.”

    And yet no achy-hearts over the sin of my abuser. His “choice” of sinful anger is what destroyed our family. Fact. They can twist the truth and repeat their lies as many times as they want, it doesn’t change reality. And the members of their own church know the truth.

  41. I should point out that it is as an American resident not citizen that she is free to associate or not with a church. A non US citizen living in the US is also protected and if she were living elsewhere she might not be.

  42. I don’t get how they seem to think they can control Marie and all her actions. She is an adult woman, over 21, who lives in the U.S. Unless she is proven mentally insane, which she isn’t, then she has control over her own life. It’s like they are treating her like a child, which she isn’t. She has a mind of her own. I can clearly see patriarchy at work in this church and especially in this long fictional letter. We are the men, you must obey. You are merely a woman. We have complete control over you.

    I have known people who have gone thru divorces and counseled with their churches. It didn’t work. I personally don’t believe a church has any business in the divorce of a couple except to offer their support to those involved. Not to be judgmental. Not to point fingers at them, not to tell them they are sinners, nothing. They just don’t have a stand in this.

    Over 20 years ago my husband and I did go thru marital counseling with a christian counselor. This was after I had gone thru a life changing medical event. My doctor, suggested we meet with this woman. We met together with her and separately. It was never the church that counseled us.

    We’ve now been married almost 32 years. It’s had it’s ups and down, and hasn’t always been easy.

    Marie – may you have a very Blessed Christmas this year. Take time to be with your family and those who love you. The WWBers will be praying for you a lot.

  43. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    The reference to “social media” is funny. I blocked those guys (as well as blocking their numbers in my phone) months ago. They basically just admitted they have moles stalking me and reporting back to them.

    Tattle tales and sycophants. 🙁 Wait til it happens to them… And when it does, we'll gladly post their testimonies, too. 

    THIS INSANITY HAS TO STOP!

  44. The letter states that, direct quote, “Your church never tried to force you to return to your abuser but you claimed that we had.” Then the letter goes on to tell her that her divorce is not valid, that she has sinned in her response in her husband, and that they demand that she “submit” to a process of counseling so that she will return to her abuser. Do they even listen to themselves?

  45. @ ishy:
    It probably took a couple of years for the transition to take place, so I would say post 2007 or 2008.

    It’s hard for me to believe that I joyfully attended quite a few chapel services at SEBTS during the 2005-mid 2008 time frame.

    For instance, during the 2006 school year, Danny Akin preached through the Jude.

    http://www.danielakin.com/category/chapel-messages/jude-series/

    I heard every single message in this series in person. I sat at the back of the chapel and took notes!

    I was very supportive of Southeastern back then and had no idea at the time what was really going on to change the seminary.

    Al Mohler delivered a chapel message at SEBTS in 2006, and I was in attendance.  I even shook the hands of Akin and Mohler on the way out.  My, how things have changed… 🙁

  46. Remnant wrote:

    But what many people don’t realize, even these pastors, is that physically striking is not the only form of physical abuse. Physical INTIMIDATION is a form of physical abuse.

    Indeed. It was quite a revelation to me when I realized that my (now-ex) husband was deliberately driving in a way that frightened me and the kids. He would speed or harass other drivers. I remember one time in particular we stopped at a red light and the other driver was yelling at us. I was terrified. That’s a form of physical abuse.

  47. Lisa wrote:

    Do they even listen to themselves?

    Four pages gives them a lot of room to rant about Marie’s sin and not remember what they actually wrote.

    They said nothing in the letter about the ex-husband, or his sin, which is what drove the wedge between the couple.

  48. Elizabeth Lee wrote:
    I realized that my (now-ex) husband was deliberately driving in a way that frightened me

    I have read that is not an uncommon tactic of abusive men.

  49. 9 Marks Summation: Persistent abuse of a husband is no grounds for divorce; persistent harassment by elders is no grounds for leaving a church.

  50. NJ wrote:

    @ Marie Notcheva:

    So in other words, it would be lawsuit time.

    I can just hear the eventual griping; ” the State is preventing us from doing Biblical discipline”. I wonder if they’ll get a clue or ratchet up the spiritual pressure. There is already an oblique suggestion in their latest letter that Marie may go to hell if she doesn’t repent according to their ideas.

    A lot of the so-called “religious liberty” pressure groups, like the Alliance Defending Freedom, also support the “right” of church leaders to do whatever they want without state interference, even mistreat their own parishioners in the name of “discipline” and “covenants”. I’ve heard that a lot of those guys have theonomist leanings, too (which means they actually want “religious liberty for me, but not for thee).

  51. drstevej wrote:

    9 Marks Summation: Persistent abuse of a husband is no grounds for divorce; persistent harassment by elders is no grounds for leaving a church.

    Excellent! The only thing I would change is this: 9Marx Summation

  52. Marie,

    Thanks for sharing a page (or several pages) out of these pastors' playbook.

    Can there be any doubt that one of Dee's Tutorials will soon be posted?

  53. I am sure there is a local attorney there that will take on a suit against the church for harassment, defamation, etc. Probably could be found with a recording of the church meeting, by having a credible investigator attending that meeting. And the church could easily be destroyed by it. I think a several million dollar damage award would be appropriate.

    These pastors are in SIN, and are ignorant of their (un)legal situation. They seem not to recognize that they have been digging a hole that will become the grave of that church!

  54. Deb wrote:

    @ ishy:
    It probably took a couple of years for the transition to take place, so I would say post 2007 or 2008.

    No, Akin actually brought a contingent of SBTS students with him, and some of those grad students were installed on staff at the end of the 2004-2005 year. I remember, because I had a friend who was incensed by the appointment of a doctoral student over a longtime professor. Then they dropped my MA program at the end of the year, when I had 4 hours left, and told me I had to get an MDiv or leave. A professor told me they reorganized, and suddenly he had a lot of other people’s classes, and they couldn’t do any individual studies for those of us in the MA.

    Those that graduated before around 2008 that were indoctrinated probably transferred, but there were some.

  55. ishy wrote:

    Those that graduated before around 2008 that were indoctrinated probably transferred, but there were some.

    I’ll sum up to say that the move to hyper-Calvinize SEBTS was clearly planned in advance.

    And NAMB had just published that study that Southeastern produced the least number of Calvinist graduates, though now I suspect that study was funded just for the sake of the takeover.

  56. drstevej wrote:

    9 Marks Summation: Persistent abuse of a husband is no grounds for divorce; persistent harassment by elders is no grounds for leaving a church.

    With RC Sproul Jr in the news, having been fired by his Dad’s religious organization after his arrest for DUI and endangering a child, I discovered a shunning letter he and fellow elders sent 11 years back. A member had sent an official resignation letter explaining he and his family had come to believe in Baptist rather than Presbyterian practices, and that Sproul and fiends were disobeying Presbyterian order. But resignation couldn’t be allowed: “this letter is a call to you to repent and submit to the government of the church as you have sworn to do. This censure is the beginning of further proceedings that could lead to excommunication, should you not repent.”
    http://hushmoney.org/AustinCensureLetter.doc

  57. @ Deb:
    Good catch! It’s interesting that in the situation I referred to above, Sproul and fiends would have shunned Dever himself for “contumacy”, but followed Dever’s MO to a T.

  58. Sprout Jr. had previously been taken to task for setting up an Ashley Madison account, so it’s not the first time he’s made a poor decision and suffered for it.

  59. ishy wrote:

    I would amend SEBTS to post-2005 degrees. Southeastern was a very different school before Akin took charge of it. It’s hard to say when Mohler went really hard-core at SBTS, though.

    I agree, albeit to a point. The theology is diametrically opposite at SEBTS now, but the authoritarian view of the pastor’s ‘position’ is the same. I attended under both administrations, in ’97-’99 and ’05-’07.

  60. JESUS ADMONISHES LEADERS AT HERITAGE BIBLE CHAPEL TO REPENT OR ELSE …

    “You hold to the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes (overlords, conquerors of the lay people), which thing I hate. Repent or else I will come unto thee quickly …” (Revelation 2)

  61. Shannon H. wrote:

    It’s not just her ex-husband that’s abusing her.

    You are correct. And Heritage Bible Chapel better step up to the plate and apologize or the next step will be taken. They better not make the mistake of thinking we are blowhards, either.

  62. Deb wrote:

    Folks, we’ve been sounding the alarm about these Neo-Cal, elder-led, authoritarian-based churches. Please, please think twice before getting involved with one of these kinds of churches!

    And if you have already been ensnared by one, only think once before you put your behind in your past as quickly as possible!

  63. ishy wrote:

    Then they dropped my MA program at the end of the year, when I had 4 hours left, and told me I had to get an MDiv or leave.

    You’ve told this story before and I feel like it’s basically fraud. I bet you would have had a decent case if you sued.

  64. Deb wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    Thanks! We knew Sproul Jr. had been ‘let go’. Had not heard why.

    Without any information, the things you can know for sure are that it was a ‘moral failure’ and made public!

  65. Daisy wrote:

    Marie can go on social media and rant about the crummy non-support she’s getting from her church if she wants to. I don’t blame her, seeing what y’all put her through.

    It is important for pastor and church leaders to understand that they do not control the narrative any longer. The Deebs are so grateful to God for allowing our blog to be well read. We want to use it as a platform for those who 20 years ago would be crushed by stupid, controlling, narcissistic, and/or authority fruitcakes.

    It is time for everyone to realize that John Piper does not speak ex cathedra for God and his pronouncement son” never a divorce at anytime” is causing harm in these wannabe churches. Talk about “the hardness of hearts!”

  66. Hey Heritage pastors™:

    Stop this nonsense now. Recently I heard from a journalist friend who asked if I has any stories that I thought might be worthy of a national medium. Unless this gets resolved over the weekend, this will be the first story that I suggest.

    Oh, I almost forgot, this is not “the next step” as mentioned in the post. It is *in addition to*

    How could any of you guys call yourselves pastors and do this to Marie? Where are your hearts? I am really, really upset about this situation in case you haven’t figured that out by now.

  67. NJ wrote:

    If I may ask, what exactly is the next step?

    We are not at liberty to say, but I bet if you think hard enough, you could figure it out. I wager the pastors have already. But, here's the deal. We will tell you in the near future.

  68. siteseer wrote:

    I’d like to translate this from christianese to normal English:
    “Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah”
    These guys are not living in reality.

    You made me laugh. I bet they thought they had written a *brilliant treatise* and believe they are theological jocks. They aren’t.

  69. Bridget wrote:

    I’m sorry that this has been so difficult for you, Marie. I wish these pastors could see past the letter of the law.

    Great comment.

  70. BTW, just in case the pastors are reading this, you cannot use the Hosea and Gomer story to justify keeping anyone in an abusive marriage. That book was written for one purpose and I will discuss it next week. What are they teaching in these seminaries! Good night!

  71. Remnant wrote:

    But what many people don’t realize, even these pastors, is that physically striking is not the only form of physical abuse. Physical INTIMIDATION is a form of physical abuse. If he comes at you with raised fist, yet does not strike you, that counts as physical abuse.

    In law, the threat is the crime of “assault”. A “battery” is a “completed assault”/physical contact was made with another person by body, object, etc.

  72. Remnant wrote:

    Physical INTIMIDATION is a form of physical abuse. If he comes at you with raised fist, yet does not strike you, that counts as physical abuse. If he uses his larger size, or his greater strength, or if he towers over you with the goal to make you cower or give in to him, that is physical abuse because he is using his bodily strength to gain power over you

    What an insightful thought! Thank you.

  73. @ Lea:

    I'll have to check into this. If someone is investing in a degree from an accredited institution and the administration makes changes like this without giving students a reasonable head's up, there could be some liability involved.

  74. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    It seems to me that many churches have realized the negative connotations of being on the 9Marx list, therefore they are now refraining from getting their name on the 9Marx website.

    In my discussion with the pastor, I realized that there is link in terms of theological agreement with 9 Marks. In the next week or so, I am going to do a *TWW tutorial* on how to spot a stealth church. I discovered it during this situation when doing research on figuring out how they got to be so ridiculous.

  75. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    They operate on the assumption that I’m afraid of them. I’m not. When someone tries to intimidate you, but you can see right through them and expose them, it rather ruins the effect.

    The only control authoritarian patriarchies have over church members is through manipulation and intimidation. But be of good cheer … “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind” (2 Timothy 1:7).

    The first battleground such leaders have is to try to control your mind with half-truths and text out of context to support their aberrant doctrines. If they can conquer your mind, they have you where they want you. If you allow someone’s weaknesses to control your strengths, they own you. But if you stand against a church’s errant belief and practice, you stand on good ground. Authoritarian leaders are not a very loving bunch (even though they may tell you that), so they have to intimidate folks to make them yield. If you find your mind drifting to fear, remember that power, love and a sound mind can be found in Him. Give the battle to the Lord, rest in His love, and watch as His hand moves.

  76. dee wrote:

    Recently I heard from a journalist friend who asked if I has any stories that I thought might be worthy of a national medium.

    If HBC is convinced they are right, you would think they would welcome such publicity. Why wait?

  77. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    Go over to the Charles River Church in Boston which was started by this church. Look at their recommended books. Whoops, they are probably reading this. I need to finish up with my screen shots.

  78. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    Our American Baptist church recently hired a young pastor on short term, part time position. (They relocated while his wife finished her doctorate) As part to the church board, I participated in interviewing him prior to hiring. Very nice man, MDiv from Fuller, but one part of his education I had to ask him about. He did his undergraduate work at a SBC college in the South. So straight up I asked him if he would describe his theology as Calvinist. He looked me in the eye and said, “No, but I can understand why you would ask and appreciate you asking. I know the problems the Neo-Cal’s have caused and I assure you I am the most non-Calvinist you will ever meet.” Done deal! He now signs off his emails to me as “Your non-Calvinist friend.

  79. How do these elders not see that they are continuing the abuse? I would hope that if they bring this before the church someone in the flock would stand up in opposition to this.

    For the love of God, let her go already. Call it an agreement to disagree, trust and believe that she is being ministered to by a family of believers that doesn’t make her face her abuser on a weekly basis, pray for her in love, AND LET HER GO.

  80. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    NJ wrote:
    If I may ask, what exactly is the next step?
    Being lied about and slandered by pastors/elders before the entire congregation.
    Having the pastors/elders’ order a ‘sic ’em meeting at church with all church members
    to ‘pursue’ the person, basically stalk and harass them.
    Bingo. Which is not going to happen. But if it does, guess who has two thumbs and is going to walk away from this a very wealthy woman? Yup. That would be me. The one who “sinned” by leaving an abusive marriage and had the nerve to stand up for herself to these bullies.

    That’s right, Marie. That’s exactly how it works. I watched it at the authoritarian, abusive Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, my ex-church (9 Marxists/John MacArthur-ite/Patriarchy-Complementarian garbage).

    The pastors/elders went as far as blaming me for being ‘in sin’ for a Dyslexic woman church member’s memory loss. She has short-term memory problems, working memory problems,
    auditory memory problems, failed school, can’t work due to her severe disability, gets a monthly check from the Social Security Administration for her disability (and has gotten it for 30 years), and was medically diagnosed with this severe disability years ago. She refuses all medical care and refuses to be in special support groups for her severe disability to help her with it. They have very good help available, which she refuses.

    When it all goes wrong, she accused other people like me of “lying” and said that entire events and consversations hadn’t taken place.

    The enraged pastors/elders, headed by the senior pastor with two fake degrees (including a fake Ph.D. for $299 from a diploma mill according to the U.S. Department of Education) came sailing down my back. They repeatedly engaged in the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, rendering medical diagnosis. The California Medical Board is now involved.
    There is a reason they license people to practice medicine and make it a crime to practice (including diagnosis) without having gone to medical school and be licensed.

    These NeoCalvinist pastors are all nutcases. Just stay away from them.

  81. dee wrote:

    how to spot a stealth church

    A good friend of mine recently re-located about an hour away and needed to find a new church to attend. Lots of churches in the area, but he did not want to visit them all to find a good fit. So we sat at the computer one Saturday and went through various churches websites. Yow, what a mess! We quickly decided to just look for keywords in their faith statements or “What we believe”. This does not tell the whole story, so I cross checked them against Acts29 and 9Marks websites. A few I searched google with the pastor’s name linked to the usual suspects. (Driscoll, Piper, MacArthur, etc) It is amazing the connections you can find if you try.
    God Luck on your tutorial!

  82. Sara wrote:

    For the love of God, let her go already. Call it an agreement to disagree, trust and believe that she is being ministered to by a family of believers that doesn’t make her face her abuser on a weekly basis, pray for her in love, AND LET HER GO.

    An Example Must Be Made.
    Or other Widdle Wifeys might get Uppity.
    Especially Pastor/Elder’s Wifeys might Get Ideas.

  83. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    A third thing I would look at is the leaders page. If a pastor has been educated at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS) or Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) I would be very cautious to attend. Most graduates from these institutions are Neo-Calvinists thoroughly schooled in 9Marx doctrine.

    Good advice, Todd.

    And I’d add to the list…avoid graduates of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary.
    Avoid any churches tied to Acts 29 (more heavy-Shepherding/cultic/controlling/un-Biblical control from the 1970’s movement). Read the Bylaws. Do the pastors/elders say they have to have control over your life?

    I’d avoid any church with ties to Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood, which is just more insufferable, un-Biblical, Patriarchy.

  84. Sara wrote:

    trust and believe that she is being ministered to by a family of believers that doesn’t make her face her abuser on a weekly basis

    This cannot be overstated! Thanks.

  85. Remnant wrote:

    Physical INTIMIDATION is a form of physical abuse. If he comes at you with raised fist, yet does not strike you, that counts as physical abuse. If he uses his larger size, or his greater strength, or if he towers over you with the goal to make you cower or give in to him, that is physical abuse because he is using his bodily strength to gain power over you

    Like a Gospelly(TM) version of four year olds in the back seat on a road trip — one running his finger half a centimeter from the other going “I’M NOT TOUCHING YOU! I’M NOT TOUCHING YOU!”

  86. ishy wrote:

    It’s hard to say when Mohler went really hard-core at SBTS, though.

    Well, it may have taken a few years for his new reformation to materialize, but Dr. Mohler fired a clear warning shot about his intentions over the SBC bow during his SBTS convocation address in 1993. In his charge to rally his Southern troops around the Abstract of Principles (reformed confession), he made the following statements:

    “The Abstract remains a powerful testimony to a Baptist theological heritage that is genuinely evangelical, Reformed, biblical, and orthodox … We bear the collective responsibility to call this denomination back to itself and its doctrinal inheritance. This is a true reformation …” (Al Mohler)

    Mohler then went on to say…

    “Those who teach the ministry bear the greatest burden of accountability to the churches and to the denomination … It is with a single man that error usually commences.”

    Of course, he would never personalize his words, but they fit.

  87. Lea wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    @ Dave A A:
    Thanks! We knew Sproul Jr. had been ‘let go’. Had not heard why.
    Without any information, the things you can know for sure are that it was a ‘moral failure’ and made public!

    Legion-ear said it was “personal reasons”– as if he maybe wanted to spend more time with his family or something— knowing the moral failure would soon go public.
    Here’s the story: http://www.christianpost.com/news/r-c-sproul-jr-resigned-from-ligonier-ministries-after-felonious-dui-arrest-with-minor-in-vehicle-172192/
    Interestingly there are numerous things by Srout’s (Sproul Jr’s) opponents from over a decade ago calling him out for excessive drinking. All off-topic– of course. But on topic, SSB commenter Rebecca stated, “Besides these other things, after his Ashley Madison exposure RC Sproul also continued to be a long-distance elder at Heritage Church in Centerville, TN, where he participated in the disciplining and ex-communication of a woman whose husband had committed adultery. Long story there, but it was just one more way he was standing in judgment of others while doing these things.”
    She clarified this is personal knowledge only, so no internet story yet.
    Guess I’ll need to shun churches with “heritage” in the names just like ones with “grace”.

  88. dee wrote:

    You made me laugh. I bet they thought they had written a *brilliant treatise* and believe they are theological jocks.

    Legends in Their Own Minds, laughingstocks to everyone else.
    Like the Jerk with the Kirk in Moscow and wannabe-writer fanboys I’ve encountered in various fandoms.
    “SEE HOW CLEVER *I* AM? SEE? SEE? SEE?”

  89. ishy wrote:

    I would amend SEBTS to post-2005 degrees. Southeastern was a very different school before Akin took charge of it. It’s hard to say when Mohler went really hard-core at SBTS, though.

    Good comment.

  90. Deb wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    Fiends – interesting misspelling (or perhaps not )…

    Misspelling the first time, which I liked so well I did it on purpose the next. Just as I will henceforth refer to Sproul Jr as “Sprout”.

  91. Max wrote:

    JESUS ADMONISHES LEADERS AT HERITAGE BIBLE CHAPEL TO REPENT OR ELSE …

    “You hold to the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes (overlords, conquerors of the lay people), which thing I hate. Repent or else I will come unto thee quickly …” (Revelation 2)

    “…to chew bubblegum and kick some ass and I’m out of bubblegum.”

  92. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    Sprout Jr. had previously been taken to task for setting up an Ashley Madison account, so it’s not the first time he’s made a poor decision and suffered for it.

    Right up there with Josh Duggar.
    Heir to House Duggar, meet Heir to House Sproul.

  93. Dave A A wrote:

    he participated in the disciplining and ex-communication of a woman whose husband had committed adultery

    Uhhhh … was the husband disciplined and excommunicated?! Is there more to this story or just another case of authoritarian patriarchy gone wild?

  94. I think I was fortunate my first couple of years in the Kingdom that I did a lot of Scripture reading on my own, without the interpretive helps that are so highly recommended. As I read Hosea, my take was always that Hosea’s marriage to Gomer was a picture of the heart of God toward His people–He loves us based only on the merit of His character, not ours.

    When I had interpretive questions, an older Christian once told me to always choose the interpretation that best reflects the heart of God as revealed in Christ. I am not sure what attracts men to in interpretive grid in Scripture that motivates them to place one of God’s dearly loved daughters in harms way, as it appears this situation reveals.

    I hope at some point enough people in these type of churches will stand with those the elders are seeking to control.

  95. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    A lot of the so-called “religious liberty” pressure groups, like the Alliance Defending Freedom, also support the “right” of church leaders to do whatever they want without state interference, even mistreat their own parishioners in the name of “discipline” and “covenants”

    Freedom = NOW *I* GET TO HOLD THE WHIP!

  96. @ Max:

    My church recently provided new ESV Bibles to our youth. 🙁

    My husband and I expressed our displeasure to our pastor. We are not as generou$ in the wake of this decision, as well as other changes being implemented by our newly hired pastor.

  97. Erp wrote:

    I should point out that it is as an American resident not citizen that she is free to associate or not with a church. A non US citizen living in the US is also protected and if she were living elsewhere she might not be.

    You are correct. Good point.

  98. I favor influence earned through trust, rather than control based on position. I realize that makes me a lonely heretic in much of Western Christianity–though I always feel at home here. Thanks to you all.

  99. These guys have dedicated their lives, not to proclaiming the Gospel, but to turning the Church into sects of mobs, mafia, and street gangs.

  100. Lisa wrote:

    Do they even listen to themselves?

    They play word games. I saw this a lot when we dealing with the Mahaney/SGM scandal.

  101. Christiane wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    There is already an oblique suggestion in their latest letter that Marie may go to hell if she doesn’t repent according to their ideas.

    I suppose these men feel that if they have the power to tell someone they are saved that they also have the power to tell someone they are damned.

    What would God ever do on J-Day without Pastor Grima Wormtongue at His right hand to whisper in His ear who is REALLY Saved and who is not?

    “ME SHEEP! HIM GOAT! HER GOAT! HER GOAT! HER GOAT! HER GOAT! HER GOAT! …”

  102. Remnant wrote:

    I realized that my (now-ex) husband was deliberately driving in a way that frightened me
    I have read that is not an uncommon tactic of abusive men.

    This is a good observation.

  103. drstevej wrote:

    9 Marks Summation: Persistent abuse of a husband is no grounds for divorce; persistent harassment by elders is no grounds for leaving a church.

    Now that sums it up/

  104. Lea wrote:

    That letter was ‘sin,sin,sin,sin,sin’

    “Deliver me Lord from the Judgment
    Of SAINTS WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN CAUGHT…”

  105. Dave A A wrote:

    RC Sproul also continued to be a long-distance elder at Heritage Church in Centerville, TN, where he participated in the disciplining and ex-communication of a woman whose husband had committed adultery. Long story there, but it was just one more way he was standing in judgment of others while doing these things.”

    He is one of the Elect, chosen before the creation of the world. Therefore, he can do no wrong!

  106. Dave A A wrote:

    With RC Sproul Jr in the news, having been fired by his Dad’s religious organization after his arrest for DUI and endangering a child

    Can you point me to a source for the DUI and child endangerment. I would love to get this out on Twitter.

  107. Max wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    he participated in the disciplining and ex-communication of a woman whose husband had committed adultery
    Uhhhh … was the husband disciplined and excommunicated?! Is there more to this story or just another case of authoritarian patriarchy gone wild?

    Rabid NeoCalvinism on steroids.

  108. Loren Haas wrote:

    No, but I can understand why you would ask and appreciate you asking. I know the problems the Neo-Cal’s have caused and I assure you I am the most non-Calvinist you will ever meet.” Done deal! He now signs off his emails to me as “Your non-Calvinist friend.

    Love this guy! Give him a hug from TWW.

  109. Deb wrote:

    We are not as generou$ in the wake of this decision, as well as other changes being implemented by our newly hired pastor.

    I can think of far better ministrie$ that could benefit from your genero$ity.

  110. Deb wrote:

    other changes being implemented by our newly hired pastor

    Hmmmm … start looking for other red flags … it can happen even to a Wartburger.

  111. Ken F wrote:

    Here is Tim Challies’ take on that “malediction”:
    “But consider this. Where there are benedictions–good words from the Lord–there must also be maledictions–bad words. As God gives words of blessing to the people to whom he shows favor, he gives words of curse to those who remain in willful rebellion against him.”
    This is from http://www.challies.com/christian-living/gods-forever-favor
    If a person has such a twisted view of God, then it is no surprise that they would abuse people they deem unrepentant, while at the same time believing that their abuse is a godly response. This abuse needs exposure.

    Challies also firmly believes that a wife should submit to and obey her husband in everything, unless the husband is trying to get the wife to do something that clearly contradictory to the Bible.
    He has stated that marriage is a hierarchy and the wife is the subordinate.
    I assume that men who think this way would be a blow against a wive who is being abused. If she fights back or takes a stand for herself and the children, she is not submitting to and obeying her husband.

  112. Deb wrote:

    We are not as generou$ in the wake of this decision

    Some churches, after getting wise to the stealth and deception of New Calvinist pastors “coming in the back door” (an SBC-YRR church planter told me they come in that way), are responding by starving their pastors out (out the door).

  113. dee wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    With RC Sproul Jr in the news, having been fired by his Dad’s religious organization after his arrest for DUI and endangering a child
    Can you point me to a source for the DUI and child endangerment. I would love to get this out on Twitter.

    Christian Post wrote about it here:

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/r-c-sproul-jr-resigned-from-ligonier-ministries-after-felonious-dui-arrest-with-minor-in-vehicle-172192/

  114. Off-topic announcement. Shuana in Texas does not have funds to provide a Christmas for her son Billy (whom Dee covered his story of being abused by a church member). Shauna does have some part-time work, thankfully, at a grocery store. Please continue to pray for her on this front.

    If folks here could contribute to the GoFundMe account so that she can provide a Christmas for Billy, and pay some basics for them (like food, gasoline, etc), that would be a blessing!

    Thank you.

    ______
    Shauna wrote:
    Update: im at work now and am on my break! So yaaay that im able to work and have a job. My hours will be at around 20 Hours a week im going to stick with it and continue to try to get more hours in other departments. As it stands today it doesn’t look like I will make anything in time for Billys Christmas this year. I tried to earn enough but unfortunately this paycheck isn’t even enough to cover my utilities, phone, and car insurance this weekend that is due. Im 300 short and this doesn’t include my landlady , food and gas. Im praying that I can do something so please continue to pray for my son. I don’t have the heart to tell him no Christmas this year. My next step is to go sell my plasma which is my last resort. I hate needles and my veins don’t hold up well when they draw blood. Anyways the good news is im working I just have to work from the bottom up. If you think about it pray for Shauna and Billys gofundme. Thank you all so much.

    This is Shauna and Billy’s GoFundMe account. https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  115. Max wrote:

    Mohler then went on to say…

    “Those who teach the ministry bear the greatest burden of accountability to the churches and to the denomination … It is with a single man that error usually commences.”

    Of course, he would never personalize his words, but they fit.

    Rather ironic in light of the ESS controversy.

  116. Thanks for sharing this story. The 4 page letter seems to be a very ham handed attempt at black mail.

    The church is attempting damage control, perhaps because if other members get wind that they can leave abusive situations then…

    There is also an obsession with image.

    My personal opinion is that this stems from the literal interpretation of the Bible.

    I would add if the church has “inerrant” & “infallible” as it pertains to scripture in the belief statement then leave the place alone.

  117. dee wrote:

    @ An attorney:
    Thank you. You can imagine hat is going on behind the scenes. This is a slam dunk case.

    Best. Quote. Of. Day. 🙂 I’m thinking of going back to Albania and building a few orphanages and maybe a school or two when all this is over. 😉

  118. Deb wrote:

    @ Lea:
    I’ll have to check into this. If someone is investing in a degree from an accredited institution and the administration makes changes like this without giving students a reasonable head’s up, there could be some liability involved.

    At the time, they said we had to get an MDiv or finish with individual study and using electives. Then they made it so the professors left couldn’t lead any individual studies because they were so overburdened teaching for the professors that had been laid off or reduced in classes to the point of being unable to keep working there.

    But in true Calvinista fashion, it was all couched in double-speak, that we could finish on our own. Behind the scenes they made sure people couldn’t. There were only about 20 of us in the MAIS, and most had way more left to do, so they switched degrees. Administration (specifically the admissions office to me) also said that the program was being “retooled”, which technically is true, because missiology means something vastly different from evangelicalism to hyper-Calvinism. Now it’s called “Proclamation” and only about preaching and teaching the authority of the Calvinistas.

  119. @ Max:

    I knew before the pastor was hired that he was a Neo-Cal. I did my internet research. It's been fascinating seeing a Neo-Cal takeover from the inside. 😉 Not bailing yet…

    Who knows what will come of it??? A book perhaps?

  120. ishy wrote:

    Administration (specifically the admissions office to me) also said that the program was being “retooled”, which technically is true, because missiology means something vastly different from evangelicalism to hyper-Calvinism. Now it’s called “Proclamation” and only about preaching and teaching the authority of the Calvinistas.

    They have said since that I could come back and finish it, but why would I want to? I don’t want to have anything to do with them.

  121. I tried to look up HBC on Twitter and couldn’t find anything, and the pastor seems to have suspended his account. Can anyone confirm?

    Here’s the thing: whether it’s these jokers or Matt Chandler, they need to be proud of this! This is the sell on biblical church discipline: in a brave new world where there are no more Ted Haggards or Newt Gingriches or Jim Bakkers, atheists will be forced to say the church is truly above reproach and bow to Jesus Christ. Hey atheists, look at we’re doing about this awful hag divorcing her husband just because of verbal abuse. Or in Village Church’s case, just because her husband likes infant porn. Aren’t you impressed?!

    Marie, thanks for sharing. It warms my heart to know that you are cared for by God’s true people.

  122. Max wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    he participated in the disciplining and ex-communication of a woman whose husband had committed adultery
    Uhhhh … was the husband disciplined and excommunicated?! Is there more to this story or just another case of authoritarian patriarchy gone wild?

    Probably he told somebody he was ‘sorry’ and that makes it all better! Because that’s how people work.

    Interestingly, I looked up my pastor and he went to southern (?) for one degree, but it seems like he was more associated with the presbyterian school, about which I know nothing.

  123. @ ishy:
    Years ago, I thought about getting a Masters from SEBTS. So grateful I didn’t waste my money because I would now be ashamed to have a degree from that seminary. 
    🙁

  124. OK, I’m going to give Heritage Bible Chapel a tiny legal lesson into why people resign from churches.

    Back in the day, you could not resign your membership in the Mormon Church. The only way to get out was to be excommunicated. A guy named Norman Hancock, who lived here in Arizona, submitted a letter of resignation to the Mormon Church, which then promptly excommunicated him, because that was the only way it allowed people to leave. The problem with excommunications in those days is that they got announced in church and if you lived in a heavily Mormon community, this could be a social death penalty as people avoided you, you awful horrible sinner that managed to get yourself excommunicated for writing a letter.

    Norman Hancock had studied the Oklahoma Guinn case (which I would also advise you to study up on) and he decided, sans attorney, to sue the Mormon church. He sued for $18 million. At this point, I have to tell you, the case was settled out of court. What is alleged to have happened is that the Mormon church’s lawyers waved money in Hancock’s face, but Hancock said, “I’m not interested in money. I want to resign and have my name cleared.” Apparently that is what happened and that is what occurs today. You can now resign your Mormon church membership. There are a number of websites which will walk you through how to write your letter and there is also a Utah attorney (Mark Naugle at QuitMormon dot com) who will submit your letter on your behalf to the Mormon church.

    Now my point in going through this history is because the letters used by people to resign from high-controlling churches (such as yours) come out of the experience former Mormons had in trying to get free from the Mormon church. Ms. Notcheva is no longer a member of your church–she’s resigned–but you’re trying to keep hold of her. As mentioned above, being a member of a church is a voluntary thing in the USA. You cannot force her to be in your church. I also suspect a few actions you’ve taken since September have been tortious in nature and may buy your church a lawsuit.

    It also makes me want to stand across from your driveway entrance on Brooks Station Road in Princeton, MA on a Sunday morning, at 9 am and 10 am with a sign saying FREE MARIE NOTCHEVA. Thankfully, for you, I live in Arizona and don’t have any plans at the moment to come to Massachusetts. I could revise those plans, however, if you keep up with ignoring Marie Notcheva’s civil right not to be a part of your organization.

    Have a nice day!

  125. My daughter and I have been watching Leah Remini’s program on A&E about leaving Scientology. We were appalled at a story about a teenager’s rape and the abuse and cover up of the crime by her church. This week, after watching the damage Scientology pours out on those who leave, I spoke to my daughter about always remembering that when she’s in a church or organization she is there voluntarily and can leave whenever she wants and that sometimes clergy and church people are under the demonically inspired notion that they have power over their congregants’ lives. So, here is Marie’s story today. This church, supposedly one that follows Christ, acting like a cult. It’s long past time these churches understand – we, the people of God, DO NOT BELONG TO YOU!! We belong to our savior and we follow him.

  126. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Deliver me Lord from the Judgment
    Of SAINTS WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN CAUGHT…”

    That reminds me of Mae West: “There are no good girls gone wrong – just bad girls found out.”

  127. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    dee wrote:
    @ An attorney:
    Thank you. You can imagine hat is going on behind the scenes. This is a slam dunk case.
    Best. Quote. Of. Day. I’m thinking of going back to Albania and building a few orphanages and maybe a school or two when all this is over.

    I’ll visit you and lend a hand. I love that kind of ministry.

  128. Burwell wrote:

    The theology is diametrically opposite at SEBTS now, but the authoritarian view of the pastor’s ‘position’ is the same. I attended under both administrations, in ’97-’99 and ’05-’07.

    I didn’t experience that very much while I was there, but I had just come from Liberty, where that was all anyone talked about. But I took preaching at SEBTS and nobody said a word to me about a woman taking preaching. I did have a couple students give me bad ratings, but I ignored them.

    I do wonder if at the time Patterson was already fairly distracted by the takeover, though. It was really his fault, in many ways, as his push toward fundamentalism opened the door to hyper-Calvinist theology with the rewrite of the BFM 2000.

  129. Jack wrote:

    The 4 page letter seems to be a very ham handed attempt at black mail.

    That was my thought as well. Those people in memphis did something similar with the people caught on camera by that man.

    Is blackmail a fruit of the spirit now?

  130. @ ishy:

    Awful! I mean, ianal obviously so I can’t say legally, but morally it sounds fraudulent. They should have made something work for you. I hate that.

  131. Lea wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Awful! I mean, ianal obviously so I can’t say legally, but morally it sounds fraudulent. They should have made something work for you. I hate that.

    I agree, though my utter disgust at what has become of Southeastern keeps me from wanting a degree from there now. I remember being so bewildered and frustrated, and wondering what was going on that they couldn’t squeeze me in to take a four hour class to graduate.

  132. Lea wrote:

    Is blackmail a fruit of the spirit now?

    Well, it goes with control, manipulation and intimidation – the other fruit of the “spirit” in authoritarian patriarchies. Jesus rebuked disciples that got off track with “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of.”

  133. @ Lea:
    Blackmail? Whenever I hear that term, I immediately remember how C.J. Mahaney blackmailed Larry Tomczak.

    And Heritage Bible Chapel’s church plant adores Mahaney.

  134. “”Marie, we love you in Christ and our hearts ache for the consequences of your choices in your own life and in your family. We are praying that God would lift the blinding effects of your sin and help you to recognize your sin and repent of it so that you might be restored.”HBC Elders (in letter below)”

    Codswallop!

  135. one of the little people wrote:

    My daughter and I have been watching Leah Remini’s program on A&E about leaving Scientology. We were appalled at a story about a teenager’s rape and the abuse and cover up of the crime by her church. This week, after watching the damage Scientology pours out on those who leave, I spoke to my daughter about always remembering that when she’s in a church or organization she is there voluntarily and can leave whenever she wants

    I have seen Leah’s program come across my Facebook. I also thought a lot about the similarities in these high-control, Thought Reform groups.

    Leah, by the way, was very kind to me on Twitter about how to rebuild my life after I was excommunicated/shunned on some trumped up charge by my ex-pastors/elders at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. And before me, it was a doctor in his 70’s (godly man, faithful husband, faithful and loving father, gave of his time and money to the church, paid for our pastor’s vacation, started the church lending library and bought high-quality DVDs and books), and before the good doctor a godly woman in finance who volunteers with the mentally ill in group homes and the elderly in convalescent homes. Anyone with at least two working brain cells was subjected to withering, abusive church discipline and screaming sessions by the pastors/elders, threats, etc.

  136. @ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:
    Awesome comment (I am laughing so hard I am almost crying right now….) 😀

    18 MILLION?!? That would sure go a long way in Eastern Europe. I might even go all Forrest Gump and buy myself a new dress and a couple of Dr. Peppers. I love my job too much to quit, though, which is fortunate for the patients.

  137. Also, it was at that same time that the mission agency I was supposed to go with denied me and refused to recant, so I was fairly devastated and broken. I’d poured everything into going back onto the mission field.

    The reason they denied me is that the counselor said that my autoimmune disease, which I’d had since I was young, wasn’t cured, so therefore I didn’t have enough faith to be a missionary. I needed… you guessed it! Nouthetic counseling! And I got it, and my counselor thought the missions counselor was nuts, and they argued about it for almost a year. I think that guy was a Gateway’er or in a similar camp.

  138. ishy wrote:

    missiology means something vastly different from evangelicalism to hyper-Calvinism

    I’m glad other folks see this! When the New Calvinists started taking over in SBC, they went about redefining terms … the first red flag to me that something was amiss. Missiology is not evangelism, since the young reformers are not evangelistic. Missiology to a young Calvinist is to study what works for the culture at hand and adjust as necessary … it’s all about being “culturally-relevant” to draw a crowd, rather than holding up the Cross of Christ to draw men to the Truth. That’s why missiology in SBC’s church planting program looks like a cookie cutter was turned loose … they found what works and mimic it.

  139. What a ironic name for the church that this specific post is all about!

    I am accused at times for generalizing to much; however this current situation at Heritage Bible Chapel is, IMHO, one of the reasons The United States of America was founded and how we all need to fight for our liberties, including religious liberty!

    To play the “binary card” that our culture tends to do these days, consider the case if Heritage Bible Chapel were state sponsored. At the time of the founding of the USA, most European countries has State sponsored religions, with a range of state sponsored abuses perpetrated on its members depending on the power of the church.

    Considering that church members were burnt at the stake for things that, IMHO, were trivial compared to the abuses perpetrated against the women in this story, I am not just speaking theoretically here.

    Considering the 4 page letter presented above, and the lack of due process in all of this, I really do not think I am overreacting to state that this Churches behavior flies against the very core values of being an American.

    I have grave concerns for this situation, and the general rise of “spin”, lack of Truthfulness, “lists”, and lack of due process that seems to be on the rise in the USA…It is time for us all to finding our own hills to stand and fight for….

  140. Nancy2 wrote:

    This automatically made me think of the post on Gary Thomas – marriage is to make you holy, not happy.
    If the neo-cals (and others) insist on using an abusive marriage to represent the relationship between Christ and his bride

    Their assumption about marriage playing this sort of role doesn’t work anyway, because the divorce, never married and widows don’t have spouses to “make them holy.”

    The Bible says nothing about a person needing a spouse to sanctify them, but it does talk about the Holy Spirit sanctifying a person.

    As I said on this thread or the previous, these churches assign the burden and responsibility of the Holy Spirit to the wife.

    It’s not the wife’s job to clean up or make a husband more godly – that is God’s job alone.

    Churches need to stop asking husbands to “be Jesus” to a wife and stop demanding that wives “be Holy Spirit” to husbands.

    Human beings cannot do so anyhow.

    I’ve had troubled friends in my past who were so emotionally needy, they clung to me as though I was their savior. They leaned on me severely instead of leaning on God.

    It was extremely mentally exhausting being a little deity to another person.

    To a degree, it’s okay to lean on another person in a time of need, but to the point you’re leaving them drained, something is going wrong, IMO.

  141. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

    being a member of a church is a voluntary thing in the USA

    Being a member of the Body of Christ has always been voluntary! Religious institutions which don’t operate this way are not the free church Christ died for. Beware of church membership covenants … the small print is seldom written in red.

  142. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

    As mentioned above, being a member of a church is a voluntary thing in the USA. You cannot force her to be in your church. I also suspect a few actions you’ve taken since September have been tortious in nature and may buy your church a lawsuit.

    That puts it an understandable terms for church leaders who seem to think they are above the law.

  143. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    Sprout Jr. …

    Is anybody else hearing the Veggietales theme here?

    Less frivolously, both letters – that sent by McSproul and his fellow elders, and that sent to Marie – are examples of the grossly deluded thinking that a splinter-group, detached and isolated from the rest of the church locally (which, admittedly, consists largely of groups just like this), can meaningfully “ex-communicate” anyone. They even use the term “covenant” for the agreements they require their “members” to sign (when did Jesus ever demand that anyone sign anything?). Perhaps they think that if they called it a “contract”, they’d stray too close to civil law and have to obey the governing authorities. But in calling it a “covenant”, they place themselves in a far more perilous firing line: they’ve stolen biblical language and have, to all intents and purposes, declared the New Covenant to be insufficient for them.

  144. Lea wrote:

    I looked up my pastor and he went to southern

    Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was not always a bad place to go to. It was fairly balanced in theological training until Al Mohler took the reins there in 1993.

  145. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I loved Veggie Tales! Bob and Larry were fun! The hairbrush song was fantastic, and Madame Blueberry was a hoot!  Oh, and let's not forget the Grapes of Wrath!

  146. Lea wrote:

    That letter was ‘sin,sin,sin,sin,sin’. Sheesh! ‘Yes, it’s bad that your husband treated you terribly, but look at you, having emotions about it’.

    I remember that in his book on domestic violence, Bancroft said this is one tactic of abusive husbands: not only do they abuse the wife, but some of them, after they see the wife crying or acting anxiously due to the abuse, some of them will blame the wife again – by mocking her for her emotional reactions or what have you.

    So, some abusers get the victim twice: first the actual abuse, and then, they abuse the victim again when they see her reacting to the abuse.

    This church is re-victimizing someone who was already victimized once.

    And in domestic violence, it’s not a split even 50-50 proposition where both parties are equally to blame and equally responsible for fixing the relationship. The abuse belongs on the abuser alone.

    This church does not understand the dynamics of abusive relationships at all.

  147. @ ishy:
    Hahahahaha…..thanks, guys! I am free – since 1 February 2016. Living my life happily and freely – with the love, support and fellowship of my new church family.

    These guys really thought intimidation, coercion and several counts of criminal harassment was the way to go? Bad idea.

    It’s ironic, because when I obtained my (absolutely biblical and completely legal) divorce, all I wanted from them was to be left alone. THEY are the ones who escalated this.

    Yeah……as I said, REALLY bad idea.

    Not just “bad”. It was a ‘sinful choice’ and a manifestation of a ‘hardened heart’.

    And illegal. But I’m happy to be free!

  148. one of the little people wrote:

    My daughter and I have been watching Leah Remini’s program on A&E about leaving Scientology. We were appalled at a story about a teenager’s rape and the abuse and cover up of the crime by her church. This week, after watching the damage Scientology pours out on those who leave, I spoke to my daughter about always remembering that when she’s in a church or organization she is there voluntarily and can leave whenever she wants and that sometimes clergy and church people are under the demonically inspired notion that they have power over their congregants’ lives. So, here is Marie’s story today. This church, supposedly one that follows Christ, acting like a cult. It’s long past time these churches understand – we, the people of God, DO NOT BELONG TO YOU!! We belong to our savior and we follow him.

    It’d be nice if you could drop a note to Leah Remini about her influence here. I’ve never met her, although several of my friends have, and they’ve worked with her on this series as well. I think Leah and her crew would be pleased to know that the lessons of Scientology are being heard and absorbed elsewhere!

  149. Christiane wrote:

    I hadn’t read your comment before I commented above, but YES, I agree fully with you that ‘stalking’ behavior is written all over their letter to Marie. It’s HORRIBLE.

    The funny and pathetic thing is, I guess they believe they can hide that by couching the letter in terms about wanting to “shepherd her soul” and other Christianese lingo.
    No matter how much they try to pretty it up, it’s clear they’re mistreating her.

  150. P.S.
    I witnessed the bleeding out of the Ohio State knife attacker from a 4th floor window in my building a couple weeks ago. And I know several of the victims…. AND, I do not agree that the answer is to ban Muslim refugees…. We are country of various types of refugees… We need to fight any type of religious persecution, which IMHO is what Heritage Bible Chapel is doing…
    After all, Steve Job’s biological father was a Syrian Muslim!!

  151. Daisy wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    That letter was ‘sin,sin,sin,sin,sin’. Sheesh! ‘Yes, it’s bad that your husband treated you terribly, but look at you, having emotions about it’.
    I remember that in his book on domestic violence, Bancroft said this is one tactic of abusive husbands: not only do they abuse the wife, but some of them, after they see the wife crying or acting anxiously due to the abuse, some of them will blame the wife again – by mocking her for her emotional reactions or what have you.
    So, some abusers get the victim twice: first the actual abuse, and then, they abuse the victim again when they see her reacting to the abuse.
    This church is re-victimizing someone who was already victimized once.
    And in domestic violence, it’s not a split even 50-50 proposition where both parties are equally to blame and equally responsible for fixing the relationship. The abuse belongs on the abuser alone.
    This church does not understand the dynamics of abusive relationships at all.

    That’s exactly what my ex would do….I had to leave the house to hide the tears when he’d rip me up one side and down the other.

    No, they do not understand it and yes, they are perpetuating it. I offered the counseling pastor my copy of the Lundy Bancroft book, “Why Does He Do That?” but he did get his own copy.

  152. Lea wrote:

    I’ll translate! “Marie, you married the guy so you’re stuck with him. Stop fighting it, that’s a sin’.

    This is often Pat Robertson’s advice to women who write to him for marital advice. (He hosts a Christian TV show)

    On a small number of occasions, if a wife writes in saying their spouse has been physically abusive, Robertson has given them the green light to divorce.

    However, in many other marital situations that most women (who have normal, healthy boundaries) would not tolerate (and possibly divorce the guy over), Robertson will usually tell the wives,

    “Darlin’, you have a broken picker. You cannot divorce. You chose him, now you have to live with him.”

    Robertson can be a mixed bag on this. In some cases, like if a wife writes in to his show to say her husband is consistently verbally abusive, financially inept to the point they may lose their home, and/or has a porn addiction that is destroying their marriage, (situations that don’t involve physical abuse), he normally tells them they chose the guy, so they must remain married to him.

    That doesn’t sit right with me. No, just because you “chose him” does not mean you have to stay with the guy.

    Also…. some abusers hide their abusive tendencies (or other issues, such as a severe porn addiction) until after they have married a woman.

    Sometimes a woman does not find out that the man she married is a great big louse until months or years into a marriage. I don’t think it’s fair to tell women in these marriages they are “stuck” with a creep.

    You just know that men who are abusive (not the physical abusers but other varieties) just LOVE these Christian talking heads coaching wives to stay and put up with the control and mistreatment. The men pay no consequences for their actions.

  153. Deb wrote:

    It’s been fascinating seeing a Neo-Cal takeover from the inside.

    I resemble that remark. I think the Lord takes us to and keeps us in places to educate us to what is wrong with the church … so that we can speak with first-hand knowledge to warn others. Our personal experience is no match for another man’s argument. While it may be agonizing at the time, it is redeeming in time. Paul saw the early church drifting off course; he wrote about the good, the bad, and the ugly as he both encouraged and rebuked. Even Jesus Himself walked through churches which were off track and warned with “Repent or Else!” We can still reflect on His words 2,000 years later and draw parallels to the counterfeit church you blog about.

  154. Remnant wrote:

    Six men pooling their combined ire in a dedicated, determined assault on Marie.

    Just one way to avoid that: DO NOT MEET IN PRIVATE!

    Meet with them in a public place where others can see (and/or hear) what is happening. Only way to keep bullies in their place – they may be bullies but usually do not want others to know that they are, or to find out firsthand.

    When I wrote the elders of my church a letter, the wanted to pull me aside on Sunday after church, and I could see from their faces that they were angry. I told them that anyone could hear what I had to tell to them, and I would talk to them in public only. They were livid, but they had to keep up appearances, and the conversation was a lot more civilised than it would have been otherwise. For one thing, they couldn’t really gang up on me …

    🙂

  155. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

    It’d be nice if you could drop a note to Leah Remini about her influence here. I’ve never met her, although several of my friends have, and they’ve worked with her on this series as well. I think Leah and her crew would be pleased to know that the lessons of Scientology are being heard and absorbed elsewhere

    Great idea!

  156. Gus wrote:

    When I wrote the elders of my church a letter, the wanted to pull me aside on Sunday after church, and I could see from their faces that they were angry. I told them that anyone could hear what I had to tell to them, and I would talk to them in public only. They were livid, but they had to keep up appearances, and the conversation was a lot more civilised than it would have been otherwise. For one thing, they couldn’t really gang up on me …

    Well played. This is great way to use their own weaknesses against them.

  157. Deb wrote:

    Folks, we’ve been sounding the alarm about these Neo-Cal, elder-led, authoritarian-based churches.

    Please, please think twice before getting involved with one of these kinds of churches!

    I would also like to add, please be careful joining any church associated with the New Apostolic Reformation. When your pastors think they are apostles/prophets and that those who disagree with them are functioning under a “religious spirit” or are “old wineskins”, it is not going to end well.

  158. Gus wrote:

    Just one way to avoid that: DO NOT MEET IN PRIVATE!
    Meet with them in a public place where others can see (and/or hear) what is happening. Only way to keep bullies in their place – they may be bullies but usually do not want others to know that they are, or to find out firsthand.

    I am also against meeting in public.

    My ex-pastors/elders at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (9 Marxist/NeoCalvinist/Authoritarian/John MacArthur-ite) ordered me and other church members into public meetings at restaurants and coffee houses. There was no way of getting out of it, even when people like me refused. The pastors/elders would later lie and tell the entire congregation that we “worked with so and so” for so long. I have never wasted so many hours of my life, over so many years, by incompetent bullying men and having to pretend that I was “grateful” for their dumb advice in order to escape.

    With authoritarians…don’t meet at all. Not in private and not in public.

  159. @ Jack:

    Truth and righteousness has nothing to hide! Just look how time after time here on WW the abusive leaders and systems have to try to “cover up” the abuse for the “sack of the gospel”.. The true gospel does not need man to “protect it”!!

  160. […] The pastors’ minds were already made up before she entered the room that “abuse, even physical abuse, is never biblical grounds for divorce”.

    It seems to me that these pastors do not understand marriage and what destroys it:

    They exclude any other ground for divorce but adultery. But adultery IMHO is not confined to exchange of bodily fluids by two people. There is a lot more that can be seen as adultery:

    – Tullian T.’s grooming of women other than his wife, pulling them into his orbit, trying to make them emotionally dependent on him, is definitely adultery even before the first “action” has taken place.

    – Making love to your own anger and indulging it in any way possible IS another form of adultery – you love another better than your spouse.

    Why does anybody with 2 eyes and 2 braincells to rub together see what these “professional” “christians” fail to see? Why does the world have better standards than many churches when it comes to the protection of children, of women, of the “not powerful” from abuse, when both the Old and New Testaments are full of passages where abuse and the failure to defend the weak against it are condemned?

  161. Harley wrote:

    I don’t get how they seem to think they can control Marie and all her actions. She is an adult woman, over 21, who lives in the U.S. Unless she is proven mentally insane, which she isn’t, then she has control over her own life. It’s like they are treating her like a child, which she isn’t. She has a mind of her own. I can clearly see patriarchy at work in this church and especially in this long fictional letter. We are the men, you must obey. You are merely a woman. We have complete control over you.

    I have one blog post at my ‘Miss Daisy blog” where I mention this in one or two posts. A lot of gender complementarianism infantilizes adult women.

    The Bible talks about putting away childish things when one is an adult, but complementarians act as though adult women should be treated like toddlers indefinitely.

  162. I’d also note that apparently Leah Remini’s show about Scientology is so popular that she’s having a special question and answer session on Monday night on A&E. You have simply no idea how happy this makes me. Twenty-plus years of hard work, we would have never seen this two decades ago, people were so afraid of Scientology.

  163. dee wrote:

    I am going to do a *TWW tutorial* on how to spot a stealth church.

    I am very much looking forward to reading this. I think there is much that goes on behind the Sunday service.

    Knowledge is power and it’s the type of power that some pastors do not want the rank and file to be aware of.

    Thanks for the hard work in getting this information out

  164. Max wrote:

    Uhhhh … was the husband disciplined and excommunicated?! Is there more to this story or just another case of authoritarian patriarchy gone wild?

    Both, I’d guess. Won’t know unless some documentation comes out. If this is like other cases, the guilty party will have been penitent and cooperative and restored to good “membership” standing. The innocent party will have been dismembered for getting a non-sanctioned divorce.

  165. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    MidwesternEasterner wrote:
    Sprout Jr. …
    Is anybody else hearing the Veggietales theme here?

    Sprout is also the name for nickelodeons toddler tv network!

  166. Velour wrote:

    I am also against meeting in public.

    Agreed. I would not advise anyone to meet with abusers and authoritarians if you do not feel up to it, or repeatedly.

    In my situation at the time, I was already free, they couldn’t do anything to me. I quite enjoyed it, actually, I have to confess – seeing how they wanted to meet me in a room apart and gang up on me, and forcing them to talk to me in public, in front of the church, where they had to be on their best behaviour – priceless!

  167. So, let me get this straight:

    These pastors are spending all this energy on someone who has left their church while the abuser, her ex-husband, sits in their midst. So, if this is correct, they have access and authority to address the abuser and his sin but are instead choosing to harass his victim who is no longer under their authority or attending their church.

    A suggestion: Why not focus upon the party with whom you have access and authority then trust the Holy Spirit with the outcome from there? Oh, that is right. That would mean taking the abuse seriously AND giving up perceived power/authority over the abused spouse.

  168. I would add that the hypocritical “love-bombing” makes me want to puke. My former father-in-law would do this; he learned such techniques well from being a member of Mark Driscoll’s Mars Hill Church.

  169. @ Jeffrey J . Chalmers:
    Do these so-called pastors REALLY believe they will stand before God and give an account? They need to envision that in light of Marie’s situation. I don’t believe God would want one of His precious children to be emotionally and psychologically abused til death do them part from their abusive spouse – that goes for both sexes!

  170. An attorney wrote:

    I am sure there is a local attorney there that will take on a suit against the church for harassment, defamation, etc. Probably could be found with a recording of the church meeting, by having a credible investigator attending that meeting. And the church could easily be destroyed by it. I think a several million dollar damage award would be appropriate.

    These pastors are in SIN, and are ignorant of their (un)legal situation. They seem not to recognize that they have been digging a hole that will become the grave of that church!

    And the little darlings have put it all in writing. They are being so helpful to any court case Marie might pursue.

  171. In the opening paragraph it says: “Marie gave up almost all of the assets to which she was entitled in a mediated divorce.”

    I apologize if this has already been addressed, but considering the duress she has been under, is it too late for her to claim half the assets? Is there an attorney who might be willing to take this case pro bono?

  172. Remnant wrote:

    I realized that my (now-ex) husband was deliberately driving in a way that frightened me
    – – – – – –
    I have read that is not an uncommon tactic of abusive men.

    I remember reading a small number of case studies I have in different books how, when a married lady manages to get her abusive husband into some form of treatment (where they have to show up WITH the husband), that the husband will act all civilized DURING the meeting with the counselor, but…

    In the car on the drive home, the husband will unleash all the fury, start weaving on the road in the car, banging his fists on the dash board, etc.

    The abusive husbands pretend to hold it all in and keep it all together during therapy meetings but secretly resent their wives for having them go in for treatment, so they let the anger out in the car drive on the way home.

  173. @ Deb:

    Unfortunately, it has been my experience that many of these "leaders" are deluded, or worse, and think they are "righteous" and will be proud to stand before G&d! I have even seem them quote bible verses about "righteous persecution" when they take heat for their crazy behavior!!

  174. Divorce Minister wrote:

    So, let me get this straight:

    These pastors are spending all this energy on someone who has left

    I had that same thought and at first believed the other church members were getting the short end of the stick (time wise) because the pastors appear laser-focused on Marie.

    But with control freak pastors like this, maybe that's a blessing! 😉

  175. Deb wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote:
    So, let me get this straight:
    These pastors are spending all this energy on someone who has left
    I had that same thought and thought the other members were getting the short end of the stick. But with control freak pastors like this, maybe that’s a blessing!

    They are making an “example” of her to keep the members “in line”….. They cannot let a women disobey them without a scene!!

  176. @ Jeffrey J . Chalmers:
    That’s EXACTLY what my boss said, Jeffrey!! (She was an eye-witness to the panic attack brought on by Tim’s May 5th e-mail, and has already offered to testify as a witness to the extreme anxiety and duress I experienced as a direct result of his coercion, should I decide to litigate.)

  177. Max wrote:

    Beware of “lead pastors” who carry an ESV Study Bible!

    Of course, the rhythm pastors can also do a lot of damage.

  178. Divorce Minister wrote:

    These pastors are spending all this energy on someone who has left their church while the abuser, her ex-husband, sits in their midst.

    It shows you their priorities. Abuse is ok, divorce is not.

    Staying in church despite whatever you do outside of it is ok, leaving (their church) is not.

    Her real sins are probably being a woman and not listening to them.

  179. Sergius Martin-George wrote:

    the rhythm pastors can also do a lot of damage

    And some of them probably do – they sure like to gyrate on stage! New Calvinist pastors like to be called “lead” pastors, even if they are the ‘only’ pastor! They just want to take the lead over something!

  180. Lea wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote:
    These pastors are spending all this energy on someone who has left their church while the abuser, her ex-husband, sits in their midst.
    It shows you their priorities. Abuse is ok, divorce is not.
    Staying in church despite whatever you do outside of it is ok, leaving (their church) is not.
    Her real sins are probably being a woman and not listening to them.

    No no no. I’m “bitter and worldly”. That’s what I’ve been called in the smear campaign that commenced after my September 28th resignation.

    The “worldly” charge was an intriguing one. I’m a single mom, living without alimony or child support; working 10, 12, sometimes even 14-hour days (long commute) to survive; was driving my Dad’s 2002 Buick for a couple months when my mini-van died…….I wanna know, exactly what type of “worldliness” do these self-appointed judges think I can afford??

    No, please tell me; cuz I would really like to know. I have neither the time, nor money, nor energy to be as deep in sin as they want to believe 😉

  181. Regarding church membership, marriage, job or anything else, and in the recent words of ResidentProsecutor: “It is not a prison sentence. Nothing is a prison sentence except a prison sentence.”

  182. dee wrote:

    BTW, just in case the pastors are reading this, you cannot use the Hosea and Gomer story to justify keeping anyone in an abusive marriage. That book was written for one purpose and I will discuss it next week. What are they teaching in these seminaries! Good night!

    I’ve never attended a seminary, but.

    The pastors don’t seem to understand that under the New Covenant, some of the rules from the Old Covenant are not binding, and God does not deal with believers under the New the way he did under the Old.

    This church behaves as though Jesus Christ was never incarnate, never died on the cross and rose again.

  183. Dave A A wrote:

    Guess I’ll need to shun churches with “heritage” in the names just like ones with “grace”.

    Seems like the “heritage” they are referring to is the curse.

  184. dee wrote:

    In my discussion with the pastor, I realized that there is link in terms of theological agreement with 9 Marks. In the next week or so, I am going to do a *TWW tutorial* on how to spot a stealth church. I discovered it during this situation when doing research on figuring out how they got to be so ridiculous.

    And there are so many church elders and pastors out there in a tizzy because church membership and attendance is steeply dropping.

    These churches think the way to get folks back in the doors is to abuse them more, guilt trip them more, keep acting as though church is a business, or add more Kewl, Happenin’ rock bands and coffee shops. How can they be so blind?

  185. Lea wrote:

    It shows you their priorities. Abuse is ok, divorce is not.

    Staying in church despite whatever you do outside of it is ok, leaving (their church) is not.

    Because if they let you walk, their own Little Wimmen might get ideas.

  186. Daisy wrote:

    I remember reading a small number of case studies I have in different books how, when a married lady manages to get her abusive husband into some form of treatment (where they have to show up WITH the husband), that the husband will act all civilized DURING the meeting with the counselor, but…

    Transforming himself to appear as an Angel of Light.
    Including grooming the counselor into taking his side.

  187. Dave A A wrote:

    Won’t know unless some documentation comes out. If this is like other cases, the guilty party will have been penitent and cooperative and restored to good “membership” standing. The innocent party will have been dismembered for getting a non-sanctioned divorce.

    “Bros before Hos!”
    (Remember the Bromance lap dance with The Visionary and his court favorite worship singer?)

  188. @ ishy:

    Possibly Patterson’s fundamentalist overreach paved the way for the Mohler/Neo Cal take-over (though it should be noted that Patterson recently disinvited all Calvinists from the SBC and encouraged them to join one of the conservative Presbyterian denominations – it seems he’s not going gently into that good night of retirement and obscurity), but I suspect that the Founders group was planning a small “r” Reformation in the SBC anyway.

    I’m curious, btw, which MA was discontinued prior to your completion?

  189. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

    I’d also note that apparently Leah Remini’s show about Scientology is so popular that she’s having a special question and answer session on Monday night on A&E. You have simply no idea how happy this makes me. Twenty-plus years of hard work, we would have never seen this two decades ago, people were so afraid of Scientology.

    And Remini’s being Fair Gamed from Flag.
    Including official Dead Agent press releases about her “BITTERNESS(TM)”.
    (Deb? Dee? Sound familiar?)

  190. In the church letter to Marie they start out recommending she have “clarity of thought and a soft heart”. To HBC, good grief people, look at yourselves.

  191. Daisy wrote:

    The Bible talks about putting away childish things when one is an adult, but complementarians act as though adult women should be treated like toddlers indefinitely.

    And allegedly-adult MALE Complementarians sure act like toddlers.
    As in purple-faced Screaming Poop-My-Diaper rages any time they hear the word “No”.

  192. Burwell wrote:

    Patterson recently disinvited all Calvinists from the SBC and encouraged them to join one of the conservative Presbyterian denominations

    Once a staunch, out-spoken anti-Calvinist, Paige Patterson in recent years became silent on his opposition to the proliferation of Calvinism in SBC. I’d be interested to read more about his recent change of heart, if you have a link you could provide.

  193. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    What a ironic name for the church that this specific post is all about!

    Remember “People’s Democratic Republics(TM)” in the Third World. As TV Tropes put it, the more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.

  194. Speaking of “Repent or Else”, I bet Israel Houghton is glad that we moved on to another topic. There are so many church knuckleheads to cover!!

  195. dee wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Control.They get to play little game of little men.

    “A cold Iron Throne
    Holds a boy barely grown;
    His crown based on lies —
    YOU WIN OR YOU DIE…
    Game of Thrones!”

  196. dee wrote:

    Lisa wrote:

    Do they even listen to themselves?

    They play word games. I saw this a lot when we dealing with the Mahaney/SGM scandal.

    Remember your Semantics, My Dear Wormwood.

  197. siteseer wrote:

    Seems like the “heritage” they are referring to is the curse.

    I was thinking more along the lines of Mosaic Law in regard to women.

  198. This whole situation is SO similar to what our daughter went through when the church followed through on their threats (just as outlined in the letter above) and publicly excommunicated her in a Sunday morning service. They SAY that it’s somehow different if there’s been physical abuse or adultery… but it’s not. Physical abuse??? You’re exaggerating. Show us the bruises. Sexual abuse??? Learn to enjoy it. Adultery??? He’s repented and now God expects you to forgive him and go back. The bottom line is that the unpardonable sin is for an abused wife to leave her marriage. The man can be as immoral and cruel as he pleases, but if he puts on a show of submission to the church, he is embraced with open arms. The abused wife, on the other hand, is kicked to the curb.

  199. My pastor once said that the opposite of love is not hate but fear. He warned that the path of fear leads to control. This is of the “Dark Side” and is not walking in the Light. So one thing that I have noticed is that the heart motivation behind leaders who act like ass-h-s is fear. They do not trust God, nor His Holy, Holy Spirit. These leaders morph into the Spirit behind the Pharisees of Jesus’ day. This Spirit is not dead. We do not battle against flesh and blood. The Pharisees were control freaks. They were incensed that Jesus’s disciples picked grains of wheat in a field on the Sabbath and did not do ceremonial washings before eating. They declared themselves to be tyrannical rulers who “placed heavy burdens on peoples shoulders, but did not lift a finger to help.” We know them by their fruit.
    I want to encourage everyone to see the bigger picture here. This is not just about a few jerks who signed the long letter listed above. There is something bigger going on. They are but a few of thousands of pawns around the country. The battle is real. Prayer is essential. God does not normally work through the big people with the degrees, or the rich and famous. He works in the trenches with little people like us to make a mockery of the principalities that sit in high places of evil. The war is real and so are the casualties. The problem is bigger than Calvinism, it is a Spirit of Bullying and Control. People with that attitude can be found in virtually every denomination. It is not limited to a single race or sex or any other way that we like to divide people up into sub-groups. Jesus is the answer to this scourge.

  200. Velour wrote:

    In law, the threat is the crime of “assault”. A “battery” is a “completed assault”/physical contact was made with another person by body, object, etc.

    Thank you for his legal clarification.

  201. one of the little people wrote:

    I would also like to add, please be careful joining any church associated with the New Apostolic Reformation. When your pastors think they are apostles/prophets and that those who disagree with them are functioning under a “religious spirit” or are “old wineskins”, it is not going to end well.

    Good to know.

  202. Remnant wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    In law, the threat is the crime of “assault”. A “battery” is a “completed assault”/physical contact was made with another person by body, object, etc.
    Thank you for his legal clarification.

    Welcome.

  203. siteseer wrote:

    Seems like the “heritage” they are referring to is the curse.

    Indeed, the ‘curse’ of Eden was God’s observation of how His original plan for the loving union of either to other in Christian marriage would turn into the garbage that the neo-Cals celebrate with their misogynistic idealization of the nightmare that patriarchal marriage has become.

    The early Christians would have been horrified by these misogynistic men ….. this from the letter of Tertullian to his wife:
    “How beautiful, then, the marriage of two Christians, two who are one in hope, one in desire, one in the way of life they follow, one in the religion they practice. They are as brother and sister, both servants of the same Master. Nothing divides them, either in flesh or in spirit. They are, in very truth, two in one flesh; and where there is but one flesh there is also but one spirit. They pray together, they worship together, they fast together; instructing one another, encouraging one another, strengthening one another. Side by side they visit God’s church and partake of God’s Banquet; side by side they face difficulties and persecution, share their consolations. They have no secrets from one another; they never shun each other’s company; they never bring sorrow to each other’s hearts. Unembarrassed they visit the sick and assist the needy. They give alms without anxiety; they attend the Sacrifice without difficulty; they perform their daily exercises of piety without hindrance. They need not be furtive about making the Sign of the Cross, nor timorous in greeting the brethren, nor silent in asking a blessing of God. Psalms and hymns they sing to one another, striving to see which one of them will chant more beautifully the praises of their Lord. Hearing and seeing this, Christ rejoices. To such as these He gives His peace. Where there are two together, there also He is present; and where He is, there evil is not. “

  204. dee wrote:

    Hey Heritage pastors™:

    Stop this nonsense now. Recently I heard from a journalist friend who asked if I has any stories that I thought might be worthy of a national medium. Unless this gets resolved over the weekend, this will be the first story that I suggest.

    This would be an excellent story for the secular press to cover. Those in the bubble could really benefit from the reality check it would offer. They need to see how people outside the bubble view and respond to a situation like this.

  205. Mary27 wrote:

    This whole situation is SO similar to what our daughter went through when the church followed through on their threats (just as outlined in the letter above) and publicly excommunicated her in a Sunday morning service.

    I am so sorry. Please give your daughter my good wishes for her recovery from such a horrible experience (spiritual abuse) and betrayal by church leaders.

    Merry Christmas, as well, to you all.

  206. @ Max:

    From the Baptist News Global article:

    “I know there are a fair number of you who think you are a Calvinist, but understand there is a denomination which represents that view,” Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, said at the close of Tuesday’s chapel service. “It’s called Presbyterian.”

    https://baptistnews.com/article/chapel-speaker-terms-calvinism-trojan-horse/#.WFWSOp9OnqA

    I’m sure it was spoken with a nod towards hyperbole, but I also believe he meant it.

  207. Loren Haas wrote:

    This does not tell the whole story, so I cross checked them against Acts29 and 9Marks websites. A few I searched google with the pastor’s name linked to the usual suspects. (Driscoll, Piper, MacArthur, etc) It is amazing the connections you can find if you try.
    God Luck on your tutorial!

    Isn’t it interesting (or sad, funny) how the guys who run these churches probably think of themselves as really great, godly Christians BECAUSE they follow or agree with 9Marx, Driscoll and other abusive persons or systems, but those are the very things or people the rest of us use as red flags to run in the other direction?

  208. @ Max:
    I’ll say it one more time…

    When Dee kept after me about starting a blog, my main objection was that I didn’t think there would be enough to write about – say three times a week.

    Boy was I WRONG!!! Things has really ratcheted up since we launched TWW in March 2009.

  209. And on the issue of whether they can force her to not separate from the church unless they say so, I coincidentally posted this meme (Fellowship Farewell) moments before coming here to read your great post, Deb. Who do they think they are to dictate where she is allowed to fellowship? I hope they wake up and think differently just as Paul did when he realized Mark was someone he should be in relationship with, not separate from.

  210. Mary27 wrote:

    The bottom line is that the unpardonable sin is for an abused wife to leave her marriage. The man can be as immoral and cruel as he pleases, but if he puts on a show of submission to the church, he is embraced with open arms. The abused wife, on the other hand, is kicked to the curb.

    What a terrible and heartbreaking situation.

    We’ve heard in the past from some men who were in abusive marriages, too, that the church system worked against them, as well. It seems that the church does not see abuse as a problem, and marriage has become an idol to be served above God himself. In fact, it seems like their hierarchy is church first, then marriage, then, somewhere down the line, is God.

  211. Max wrote:

    Burwell wrote:
    Patterson recently disinvited all Calvinists from the SBC and encouraged them to join one of the conservative Presbyterian denominations
    Once a staunch, out-spoken anti-Calvinist, Paige Patterson in recent years became silent on his opposition to the proliferation of Calvinism in SBC. I’d be interested to read more about his recent change of heart, if you have a link you could provide.

    Since SWBTS recently hosted a 9Marx conference, Patterson has obviously caved into the NeoCal pressure.

  212. @ Marie Notcheva:
    I hope he reads the book.

    My older sister is verbally abusive to me quite often. Back when I would get upset and leave the room, she’d follow me to the next and scream at me for getting up and leaving.

    She apparently feels that not only is she entitled to verbally abuse me but that I should sit in silence and just endure it.

    She also would at times, mock me or scold me for crying or getting upset at her tirades.

    When I finally started standing up to her, she then either would
    a. play the victim herself (pity me, my life is so tough, that is why I take it out on you),
    or she b. doubles down and screams even more.

    My ex fiancee started getting a bit verbally / emotionally abuse of me the last year and a half or two of our relationship, but the bulk of my problems with this stuff myself has been with family members, especially my sister.

    These abusive types will abuse you and then on top of that yell at you more or ridicule you for crying and getting upset by the abuse they cause! It’s so hypocritical and twisted.

  213. Burwell wrote:

    I’m curious, btw, which MA was discontinued prior to your completion?

    Master of Arts in Intercultural Studies. At first the story was that Akin didn’t approve of the MAs at all and wanted everyone to get divinity degrees. Then it was they needed “retooling”, which is eventually what happened. They brought it back only after a couple years or so, but in looking at the classes, it’s a very different degree.

    I think somebody must have fought it a bit on some level, because the story they told me was that it would not be brought back, and only those already in it could “finish”. But every time I went into the registrar’s office, they told me a different story.

  214. ishy wrote:

    Burwell wrote:
    I’m curious, btw, which MA was discontinued prior to your completion?
    Master of Arts in Intercultural Studies.

    For non-seminary people, the MAIS is a degree for missionaries, usually done through the college and not the seminary, so that missionaries can go on the field with a seminary-level masters, but it is a bit safer to not have a seminary degree. My concern wasn’t safety, as Japan is totally open about that, but it could have unlocked some doors that an MDiv would not have. One reason I chose SEBTS was that I could study Greek at a high level while getting a degree that would benefit me on the field.

  215. Divorce Minister wrote:

    I would add that the hypocritical “love-bombing” makes me want to puke. My former father-in-law would do this; he learned such techniques well from being a member of Mark Driscoll’s Mars Hill Church.

    All the false sweetness in the church’s letter comes across as so phony and fake. I don’t know who they think they’re fooling.

    Christianese lingo also makes me want to throw up now, and there was a lot of it in this letter.

  216. @ siteseer:
    I was thinking of that when I typed ‘Tertullian’ ….. imagine the contrast …… I wonder if Tullian ever saw this letter written by his namesake those ages ago??

    perhaps it might have helped him some …. maybe

  217. Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

    They are making an “example” of her to keep the members “in line”….. They cannot let a women disobey them without a scene!!

    They may think by harassing Marie they are keeping currently lady members in line, but – have they considered that women who are not already members, after looking all this mess up online, won’t want to join? They’re not going to attract NEW members once word gets out.

  218. Daisy wrote:

    Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
    They are making an “example” of her to keep the members “in line”….. They cannot let a women disobey them without a scene!!
    They may think by harassing Marie they are keeping currently lady members in line, but – have they considered that women who are not already members, after looking all this mess up online, won’t want to join? They’re not going to attract NEW members once word gets out.

    Some of their current membership – male as well as female – know about what they’re doing to me and have privately written me to share their support (and disagreement with leadership). Which is one more reason if they do th church-wise gossip session thing, it will blow up in their faces. People aren’t stupid.

  219. Deb wrote:

    Since SWBTS recently hosted a 9Marx conference, Patterson has obviously caved into the NeoCal pressure.

    I think Patterson was secretly on board from the beginning of his ‘takeover’ if you look at how he treated Dr. Sheri Klouda ….. I have no doubt he is closely connected to the tenants of the neo-Cal faith that are locked into the misogynistic treatment of wives in marriage which is very much opposed to the way of Christian sacramental marriage of ‘either to other’, only possible in a loving union.

  220. Mary27 wrote:

    The bottom line is that the unpardonable sin is for an abused wife to leave her marriage. The man can be as immoral and cruel as he pleases, but if he puts on a show of submission to the church, he is embraced with open arms. The abused wife, on the other hand, is kicked to the curb.

    Every thing in your post is spot on, but this part especially.

    With so many blogs giving voice to women’s experiences like this, something has to change. I do not see how churches can maintain their ignorant policies and harassment against women who are being abused by their spouses.

  221. Bill M wrote:

    In the church letter to Marie they start out recommending she have “clarity of thought and a soft heart”. To HBC, good grief people, look at yourselves.

    It’s a masterful example of doublespeak. They would do well to pay attention to Psalm 34:12-13:
    “Who is the man who desires life
    And loves length of days that he may see good?
    Keep your tongue from evil
    And your lips from speaking deceit.”

    Or as the King James puts it, guile. I think that couching heartless control tactics in terms of christianese concern is a blatant example of guile. And, I might add, a good example of James 3:14, as well.

  222. Deb wrote:

    Patterson has obviously caved into the NeoCal pressure

    Patterson is anti-Calvinist, but not anti-complementarian. Whether he has caved or not to the neoCals, it’s obvious that he is done in SBC but not quit yet.

  223. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    That’s exactly what my ex would do….I had to leave the house to hide the tears when he’d rip me up one side and down the other.

    And when a time comes that you absolutely cannot take one more moment of an abusive angry outburst (not that all, or even most, abuse is loud or angry) and you yourself raise a voice in protest, then you are the one chastised for being out of control and labeled angry and abusive.

    They bring you to the breaking point and blame you for breaking.

  224. Deb wrote:

    I didn’t think there would be enough to write about

    As long as New Calvinism lives, there will be plenty of kindling for the fire.

  225. Christiane wrote:

    if you look at how he treated Dr. Sheri Klouda …

    I have altered my opinion on the Klouda affair somewhat since I googled it as to what actually happened at the time, and as to what she did afterwards and after what she asked the court to rule on. I don’t know if you have checked on all that, but I assume so. I am not ready to make the Klouda affair a martyr story at this point, albeit it all happened at a very difficult time in her life IMO it could have been handled better by the seminary.

  226. Burwell wrote:

    @ Deb:
    He made the Presbyterian comment from the chapel at SWBTS after the 9Marks conference.

    Wow. I need to look into this. Sounds post worthy to me.

  227. @ Tim:

    Tim, what you say is exactly correct…. They are attempting to create a “covenant” that supersedes the tradional “New Covenant” of the New Testament…
    It is really quite shocking when you step back and look at it… all i can say is on the judgement seat i am glad i do not have to defend a document like that… can you imagine what it would be like to have G$d, or Christ say, “On what authority did you tell MY sheep that this covenant is valid?”

  228. Velour wrote:

    With authoritarians…don’t meet at all. Not in private and not in public.

    This is quite a few comments ago now, so to set some context:
    @ Gus suggested meeting with would-be controlling elders/leaders, but in public, where they couldn’t gang up as easily
     It is this kind of meeting to which Velour is referring

    I beg to offer another alternative, which is:

     Don’t go into a meeting in which you are alone

    That is to say, don’t meet with your accusers unless you yourself are accompanied by someone entirely independent of their control, who will stand with you and in particular will at least double your chances of calling out twisted logic, subterfuge and trickery (ad hominem attacks, double standards, changing the subject, etc etc) on their part. In practice, this is likely to mean a leader, of recognised standing, from a separate congregation of the local church.

    If they refuse such a meeting, or simply attack the person standing with you, have nothing to do with them. By their refusal, they testify that they are split off from, and divided against, the rest of the local church, in which they are building only their own faction. Treat them, as the bible instructs, as pariahs.

  229. Tim wrote:

    “The covenant that you entered into when you became a member does not permit you to resign during circumstances such as these.” Yet another stark example of how ungodly these types of membership covenants are.

    The New Testament doesn’t have a church covenant to e a part of God’s people. “Jesus is Lord and is risen from the dead” is the only requirement.

  230. Lisa wrote:

    The letter states that, direct quote, “Your church never tried to force you to return to your abuser but you claimed that we had.”

    If the church is telling the truth, it seems that the church wanted her to remain separated. The letter also asked her to postpone or dismiss the finalization of her divorce without first giving God the opportunity to heal and restore her marriage.

    From the reading of the letter, I don’t think the church believes that abuse is not grounds for divorce. It’s a matter of the timing of the divorce. That is, give God a chance to heal and restore the marriage. If that fails then get a divorce. I think they believe that God wasn’t given that chance.

  231. siteseer wrote:

    In fact, it seems like their hierarchy is church first, then marriage, then, somewhere down the line, is God.

    And nowhere to seen is Jesus. 🙁

  232. siteseer wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    And Tullian Tchividjian was named for Tertullian, was he not? Oh, the irony!

    And named for Billy Graham before that– Tullian being just his second middle name…

  233. Ken G wrote:

    From the reading of the letter, I don’t think the church believes that abuse is not grounds for divorce. It’s a matter of the timing of the divorce. That is, give God a chance to heal and restore the marriage. If that fails then get a divorce. I think they believe that God wasn’t given that chance

    The pastors/elders from that church are presumptuous and arrogant. They have taken the place of the Holy Spirit in Christians’ lives. They have NO right interfering in other peoples’ lives this way. They are simply exerting rabid authoritarianism in its new guise, NeoCalvinism.

  234. NJ wrote:

    There is already an oblique suggestion in their latest letter that Marie may go to hell if she doesn’t repent according to their ideas.

    In any fear based fundagelical religion, the hell card will almost always do the trick in retrieving runaway slaves.

  235. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

     Don’t go into a meeting in which you are alone
    That is to say, don’t meet with your accusers unless you yourself are accompanied by someone entirely independent of their control, who will stand with you and in particular will at least double your chances of calling out twisted logic, subterfuge and trickery (ad hominem attacks, double standards, changing the subject, etc etc) on their part. In practice, this is likely to mean a leader, of recognised standing, from a separate congregation of the local church.

    That’s a good alternative, Nick.

    At my former church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (9 Marxist/Authoritarian/rabid NeoCalvinism/John MacArthur-ite/Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood’s patriarchy nonsense/semi-Arian trinitarian heresy) when the very conservative church secretary left she brought her new pastor with her to the meeting that the pastors/elders demanded.

    My ex-senior pastor told me that he didn’t know why she wasn’t at church any more. He lied, like all of the other lies.

    But the church secretary was extremely smart to plan her move carefully and the pastors/elders weren’t expecting that and they could say nothing to her in the face of an outside witness/man/pastor.

  236. @ okrapod:
    am praying for you and yours and will continue to do so during this difficult time

    my opinion of the Klouda situation was formed by Wade Burleson’s reports on it, so I am trusting of that source of information …. I still cannot believe what she was put through

  237. @ Dave A A:
    oh no …..

    in my Church we attach some significance to our children’s namesakes …. hopefully to encourage the child who is named after good people to emulate that goodness in their own lives

    in this case, it hasn’t worked …. at least not yet ……but Tullian is still alive and there is still time for some intervention, but I’m afraid it will have to come from on high and it will likely have to be a painfully difficult one in order to be able to bring him to a sense of who he REALLY is before the Lord

  238. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Mosaic Law protected women FAR more than these 21st-century misogynists would have us believe. I wrote about that here:

    You’re right about that. After the Fall, women became property, no better than sheep or cattle. But, when most “Christian” men refer to Mosaic Law pertaining to women, they use it to keep women in a chattel position both in churches and in marriages.

  239. roebuck wrote:

    And nowhere to seen is Jesus.

    New Calvinists talk a LOT about sovereign God, but seldom mention Jesus, and a hardly a word about the Holy Spirit.

  240. Christiane wrote:

    in my Church we attach some significance to our children’s namesakes …. hopefully to encourage the child who is named after good people to emulate that goodness in their own lives

    Let it be so! I was named after my great-great-grandmother. She was a very strong woman. She was a Christian (Methodist), but she was meaner than a rattlesnake when circumstances demanded. She always spoke her mind, and stood her ground. I remember her. She lived to be at least 109 ( she lied about her age a lot, so no one is really sure how old she was)!

  241. Im sure some of these folks are just ticked to no end that they are now being forced to beam down from the mothership and walk among the “little” people that make up their congregations. My hope is that the little people continue to gain an equal footing. Dont ever sign a church membership contract, it will be used against you and never for you.

  242. Max wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    And nowhere to seen is Jesus.
    New Calvinists talk a LOT about sovereign God, but seldom mention Jesus, and a hardly a word about the Holy Spirit.

    Preach it, brother Max!!!

    So true!

  243. Velour wrote:

    Max wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    And nowhere to seen is Jesus.
    New Calvinists talk a LOT about sovereign God, but seldom mention Jesus, and a hardly a word about the Holy Spirit.

    Preach it, brother Max!!!

    So true!

    I think they have some real problems with the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity

  244. Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Max wrote:
    roebuck wrote:
    And nowhere to seen is Jesus.
    New Calvinists talk a LOT about sovereign God, but seldom mention Jesus, and a hardly a word about the Holy Spirit.
    Preach it, brother Max!!!
    So true!
    I think they have some real problems with the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity

    And before we get to that doctrine, they have some REAL problems with God and with Jesus.

  245. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Don’t go into a meeting in which you are alone

    VERY good advice.

    Not just because this person can help you untwist twisted logic, deflect ad hominems, etc. But also because there is an independent witness who can at least tell the truth. They may contradict the truth, but it becomes much harder.

    Also, it levels the playing field – authoritarians want you in the weaker position to more easily “win”, so they come in a group to outtalk you. A second person will make that more difficult: they will have to let you speak, they will find it more difficult to interrupt you.

    A witness will dissuade/deter at least some of the worst behaviour.

  246. Ken G wrote:

    If the church is telling the truth, it seems that the church wanted her to remain separated. The letter also asked her to postpone or dismiss the finalization of her divorce without first giving God the opportunity to heal and restore her marriage.

    This is not their call to make. They have no right to put their own timetable on Marie’s suffering. She spent 20 years being abused. When she’s done, she has the right to be done.

    From the reading of the letter, I don’t think the church believes that abuse is not grounds for divorce. It’s a matter of the timing of the divorce. That is, give God a chance to heal and restore the marriage. If that fails then get a divorce. I think they believe that God wasn’t given that chance.

    They have no right to make themselves the arbiters of what God is supposedly doing or of what kind of chance Marie is supposedly giving or not giving Him.
    There is no promise they would ever think she had given it “enough” of a chance. They were not dealing with the reality of the situation and were playing their games with she and her childrens’ health and well-being.

  247. Max wrote:

    roebuck wrote:

    And nowhere to seen is Jesus.

    New Calvinists talk a LOT about sovereign God, but seldom mention Jesus, and a hardly a word about the Holy Spirit.

    Already trending towards Deism, perhaps?

  248. Gus wrote:

    A witness will dissuade/deter at least some of the worst behaviour.

    especially if you arrive with an attorney 🙂

  249. Christiane wrote:

    she sounds wonderful …. was she a pioneer woman in her day, Nancy?

    She spent her whole life in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky. She worked as a cook at a coal mine camp, where she met her first husband. She lived through the “coal wars” with the unions that devasted families. She lost her first husband (my gg-grandfather) and their oldest son on the same day in a coal mine cave-in. She lived to bury 3 more husbands and 3 of her 4 children. She never gave up. She never quit.

    She died when I was 11 (1975 – so she was born by or before 1866). The last time I saw her was that summer – she was out in her garden picking green beans when we arrived at her house. I hope I inherited a bit of her strong spirit.

  250. Christiane wrote:

    am praying for you and yours and will continue to do so during this difficult time

    Thank you for your prayers. No need to keep on praying; the die is cast. We have now made the decisions, for better or for worse. I cannot tell the details, but for reasons we had nothing to do with ResidentEducator has removed her children from the school where they were, as have many other middle school parents, and mention has been made of the possible closing of the middle school due to loss of so many students. This just blew up in our faces. We are close to heart broken over this, but we will get over it. Places have been found for the children elsewhere. We will make it work if at all possible.

  251. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    Already trending towards Deism, perhaps?

    There are certainly some concerns emerging in this regard. New Calvinists which are camping out in SBC right now appear to have a mistrust in personal born-again Christian experience. Their version of Christianity appears to place doctrinal propositions about “grace” over a direct experience of Grace. They certainly don’t talk much about the living Christ; there’s just not much spiritual life flowing through their ministries.

  252. Christiane wrote:

    I think they have some real problems with the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity

    Yes, the Eternal Subordination of the Son mumbo-jumbo holds the Trinity hostage.

  253. @ Ken G:

    She was in counseling two years before the divorce. It didn’t bear fruit. She didn’t rush to a decision. It is her decision and she appears to have given her ex plenty of time.

    Pastors are not the arbitrators of what her 20 year marriage has been like, nor whether she can now divorce or not.

    Why do assume that Marie has not given this decision a proper amount time and much weight?

  254. Ken G wrote:

    I think they believe that God wasn’t given that chance.

    They were not in the 20 year marriage nor in counseling with the couple. She does not need their approval.

  255. dee wrote:

    In my discussion with the pastor, I realized that there is link in terms of theological agreement with 9 Marks. In the next week or so, I am going to do a *TWW tutorial* on how to spot a stealth church

    Dee, by this do you mean a church that follows 9Marks practices but has not joined or does not wish to be known as a 9Marks affiliate?

    If so, that’s interesting. During the attempted complementarian takeover of my church, two of the chief proponents mentioned that 9Marks affiliation is a plus for many who are seeking a church. That may be changing.

    I recognized a lot in the letter from the HBC elders. That could have been written by Jonathan Leeman.

  256. Ken G wrote:

    From the reading of the letter, I don’t think the church believes that abuse is not grounds for divorce. It’s a matter of the timing of the divorce. That is, give God a chance to heal and restore the marriage. If that fails then get a divorce. I think they believe that God wasn’t given that chance.

    Is it that or is it just in the end that Marie was not submissive to the “pastor”.

  257. Ken G wrote:

    From the reading of the letter, I don’t think the church believes that abuse is not grounds for divorce. It’s a matter of the timing of the divorce. That is, give God a chance to heal and restore the marriage.

    Why is the letter four pages long then, and why do the pastors bring up what they perceive as Marie’s sin 14 times?

  258. Max wrote:

    mistrust in personal born-again Christian experience

    I have mixed feelings about this actually. I have some really uncomfortable past experience with people who insisted that someone was not ‘saved’ unless they could name a date and time in which they ‘got saved’. This put some of us who were practically born on the back pew of the church, who had been taught that at some point one made a public profession of faith and got baptized, and that there was no need for some date and time when one fell off one’s horse en route to Damascus. It got really seriously ugly for a while before I learned how to deal with it. I made up a date and time and everybody was happy. They did not even require a ‘testimony’ of a sudden and drastic experience, just date and time.

    I think, actually, that this may be like the sinners prayer controversy. IMO God deals with individuals in His own way and in His own time and that this varies from person to person, and I really think that we err to insist on our systems, especially since the systems vary from one group to the next.

  259. Ken G wrote:

    I think they believe that God wasn’t given that chance.

    Poor god, nobody gave him a chance – he too is a victim of this terribly unrepentant woman. If only he had been given more time, maybe he could have done something…

    What a twisted view of God.

  260. Bill M wrote:

    Is it that or is it just in the end that Marie was not submissive to the “pastor”.

    It then gets weirder when the pastor demands submission from someone who is no longer a member of his church. This is church discipline taken to the extreme when pastor MUST have the last say … one last chance to excommunicate. Authoritarian patriarchs will attempt to control the very life out of you by hammering and hammering until they wear you down. If you escape their clutch, they will then control you by authorizing the rest of the church to shun you. There is nothing Christian about this behavior at all.

  261. My God. I just got a message from another woman who used to go to HBC…they did the same thing to her.Se said even the wording of Tim’s letter was eerily similar to mine. I knew of a few cases like this at HBC, (of course the leaders tried to deny there were others), but this was relatively recently!

  262. Max wrote:

    Patterson is anti-Calvinist, but not anti-complementarian. Whether he has caved or not to the neoCals, it’s obvious that he is done in SBC but not quit yet.

    Patterson is not useful to cause now.

  263. Ken G wrote:

    Lisa wrote:
    The letter states that, direct quote, “Your church never tried to force you to return to your abuser but you claimed that we had.”
    If the church is telling the truth, it seems that the church wanted her to remain separated. The letter also asked her to postpone or dismiss the finalization of her divorce without first giving God the opportunity to heal and restore her marriage.
    From the reading of the letter, I don’t think the church believes that abuse is not grounds for divorce. It’s a matter of the timing of the divorce. That is, give God a chance to heal and restore the marriage. If that fails then get a divorce. I think they believe that God wasn’t given that chance.

    The church is NOT telling the truth, and I have the emails to prove it. He looked me straight in the eye and said “I do not believe that abuse ever justifies divorce.” I then clarified, what if it’s physical abuse? Nope, no divorce. Not ever. (He also preached this publicly, from the pulpit, in August 2016). They allow for a temporary separation, during which time BOTH ex-spouses are to have “weekly or bi-weekly” counseling, “with the ultimate goal of reconciliation”. There is no other option.

    And yes; it was 20 years and ex repeated many, MANY times “I’m not going to change!” When I took him at his word, I was told I “have a low view of Christ”. And that I’M the one in sin ‘with a hard heart’.

    True story bro.

  264. Nancy2 wrote:

    I hope I inherited a bit of her strong spirit.

    Based on what you share with us here, I would say you most certainly did.

  265. @ okrapod:
    sorry to hear that the situation has not gone well …. I will continue to pray for the best possible outcome that remains

    sometimes one door closes and another one opens ….. so many times have I seen this in my own life, yes but I only understood how this works for good from the perspective of many years later in life

  266. Max wrote:

    Bill M wrote:

    Is it that or is it just in the end that Marie was not submissive to the “pastor”.

    It then gets weirder when the pastor demands submission from someone who is no longer a member of his church. This is church discipline taken to the extreme when pastor MUST have the last say … one last chance to excommunicate. Authoritarian patriarchs will attempt to control the very life out of you by hammering and hammering until they wear you down. If you escape their clutch, they will then control you by authorizing the rest of the church to shun you. There is nothing Christian about this behavior at all.

    “Boss, I quit!”
    “No, you can’t quit!”
    “Why not?”
    “Because you’re FIRED!”

  267. @ Christiane:

    Thanks. One thing RE did before leaving SBC mega was go ahead and let the youngest be baptized-that would be believers baptism by immersion, because I suggested that they do that in case the child ever had to deal with the Baptists again. Kind of, check all the boxes. So she went to class and got baptized in a way that I think almost every group would recognize, trinitarian formula and all. Well, lo and behold, the school where the youngest will be going is Baptist, so that will not be an issue. It would not be an issue except in religion class, but still I am glad it is one thing to not worry about.

  268. This same thing happened to me at this same church.
    My husband and I were separated and I was subjected to repeated phone calls and texts asking me to repent within a certain period of time or I would be presented to the membership as an “unbeliever”.
    Following withdrawing my membership I continued to receive communication. When I asked them to discontinue the calls and texts, they refused.
    It pulled me away from the church for awhile and was one of the most upsetting experiences of my life.

  269. Its because of a**hats like these that I won’t step foot in a church. I didn’t leave the church because of mediocre worship bands or lack of classes but because spiritually abusive ministers and invasive, manipulative leaders. These men, if you can call them that are duped by their patriarchal paradigm into re-abusing victims of the abusers they side with.

    In my opinion these men are NOT ministers of the gospel but instead are Pharisees in the most classic and literal sense. They bind burdens on people to difficult to bear and stone the woman rather than chastise the abuser and offender.

  270. I had a very similar experience at HBC. I was separated from my husband. During this period I received repeat phone calls and text messages from the pastor and elder board. I was told that this would escalate to members of the church if I did not reconcile with my husband before “x” amount of time, at which point I would be presented to the church membership as an “unbeliever” and they would ask the membership to approach me as such.
    I withdrew my membership from the church and asked them to discontinue communication with me.
    Following this, I received further communication stating that the communication (harassment) would continue further as they are still bound to holding me accountable for my sinful behavior due to being a member of the church even though I had withdrawn my membership to the physical local church.
    I then sent an email asking the harassment to discontinue and received one from the pastor yet again stating why he believed his communication was not “harassment” and that it would continue.
    This experience pulled me away from the church for a time and caused me anxiety that I had not previously experienced.

  271. If a Christian husband abuses his Christian wife, is he really a Christian? Genuine born-again believers are new creatures in Christ, partakers of His divine nature. Abuse is contrary to the divine nature. It looks nothing like Christ. Disciplining church members assume they are also members of the Body of Christ … when, in fact, some aren’t. Church membership does not equal knowing God and being known by God as one of His own. A pattern of abuse is to live a life of sin and rebellion before God, out of fellowship with Him and others, lost and undone without God or His Son. Instead of pursuing the spouse who chooses to flea from abuse, church leaders should pursue the one who abuses in an attempt to lead him to Christ.

  272. Nancy2 wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    in my Church we attach some significance to our children’s namesakes …. hopefully to encourage the child who is named after good people to emulate that goodness in their own lives
    Let it be so! I was named after my great-great-grandmother. She was a very strong woman. She was a Christian (Methodist), but she was meaner than a rattlesnake when circumstances demanded. She always spoke her mind, and stood her ground. I remember her. She lived to be at least 109 ( she lied about her age a lot, so no one is really sure how old she was)!

    Christiane, I saw that you mentioned your great-great-grandmother was from Eastern Kentucky. I was born in Harlan County, Kentucky. Wonder if she was from the same area. 🙂

  273. Nancy2 wrote:

    This automatically made me think of the post on Gary Thomas – marriage is to make you holy, not happy.

    I ran across this 25 years ago in a Precept Ministries Bible study, with recorded lectures by Kay Arthur. I can still hear her saying that. It badly upset one of the women in the class, who later divorced.

  274. Christiane wrote:

    NJ wrote:
    There is already an oblique suggestion in their latest letter that Marie may go to hell if she doesn’t repent according to their ideas.
    I suppose these men feel that if they have the power to tell someone they are saved that they also have the power to tell someone they are damned.
    How little they know.

    But they do think that! At least, in our former church, the elders talked about the power of the keys. They seemed to think that as they were God’s servants, anointed as elders, they had the power of the keys to let in believers or lock out the unrepentant. They used this in excommunications, as I recall, and also in welcoming back those few who returned after sufficient chastening.

    Matthew 16:13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, 15 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
    19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” – Matthew 18: 18-20

  275. Why is the comment from the other Heritage woman not showing up? Could the mods please checkif it needs approval? She texted me screenshots of the “loving” messages Tim sent HER in 2014. The wording is almost the same as to me – same condescending tone; same doublespeak….but Tim seems to misunderstand how civil law works in the U.S.

  276. Harley wrote:

    Marie – may you have a very Blessed Christmas this year. Take time to be with your family and those who love you. The WWBers will be praying for you a lot.

    Harley said it better than I could. Marie, wishing you all the best. Thank you for allowing your story to be shared.

  277. Dave A A wrote:

    But resignation couldn’t be allowed: “this letter is a call to you to repent and submit to the government of the church as you have sworn to do. This censure is the beginning of further proceedings that could lead to excommunication, should you not repent.”

    You can’t resign! You’re not allowed to leave on your own recognizance; no, the power is all ours: we have to kick you out.

  278. Tina wrote:

    Christiane, I saw that you mentioned your great-great-grandmother was from Eastern Kentucky. I was born in Harlan County, Kentucky. Wonder if she was from the same area.

    My gggrandmother, Tina. She was born in Perry County, just north of Harlan. But she spent much of her very long adult life in Bloody Breathitt. I am very familiar with Jackson and Hazard — and Elkatawa.

  279. Max wrote:

    Uhhhh … was the husband disciplined and excommunicated?!

    It appears that these elders took The Village ELDERS debacle as a script. The husband was not disciplined, but Karen was because she defied the ELDERS by declining to be pushed under their care. They must be obeyed because they “must give an account.” Naturally, Matt Chandler did not say they had been wrong but only acknowledged that they exercised their (Biblically mandated) authority with insufficient sensitivity. Honestly, a sane person could not make this kind of “reasoning” up.

    Note to Heritage elders: Paul nowhere wrote in his canonical letters that Christians may not resort to the civil authorities. That interpretation totally misses the point of Paul’s declarative statement regarding the Corinthian church and its failures. Not that the Heritage elders would take any heed to the admonition from a woman to stick to the text and not make stuff up.

  280. Gram3 wrote:

    Paul nowhere wrote in his canonical letters that Christians may not resort to the civil authorities.

    Perhaps there’s more to “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s” than just paying taxes. Domestic abuse moves outside the jurisdiction of the church and is subject to civil law. Church leaders would not have to give an account for someone under their care who stepped away from the things that are God’s … let Caesar handle it!

  281. @ Gram3:
    I was thinking the same thing — the whole “you must return to our control so that we can care for you properly” thing reminded me of the Chandler church “push her under our care” thing.

  282. @ Gram3:

    I grew around church leaders that thought they were “above” civil leaders because they were believers AND had the true doctrine.. , basically, they are better than the civil authorites and they have the “Truth”… my bet these characters do as well…

  283. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Thank you!!! I will! This is the first Christmastime I can remember that I haven’t felt depressed and alone. Every day is a blessing!

    That’s wonderful! You deserve to be able to live like this. Everyone does.

  284. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Why is the comment from the other Heritage woman not showing up? Could the mods please checkif it needs approval? She texted me screenshots of the “loving” messages Tim sent HER in 2014. The wording is almost the same as to me – same condescending tone; same doublespeak….but Tim seems to misunderstand how civil law works in the U.S.

    Not to worry. It happens when people are new here. Also when we have tough subjects to discuss and there are extra words that make the comments delayed. And it even happens to our lovely blog queens Dee and Deb. Please give them a chance to review anything.

  285. Mary27 wrote:

    The bottom line is that the unpardonable sin is for an abused wife to leave her marriage. The man can be as immoral and cruel as he pleases, but if he puts on a show of submission to the church, he is embraced with open arms. The abused wife, on the other hand, is kicked to the curb.

    Also true when the sexes are reversed. Because the husband can always be “cared for” by The Elders for not being sufficiently Christ-like and sacrificial. Or he will stay in the marriage because he believes he must in order to be like Christ who laid down his life for his Bride. Just like an abused wife may stay in the marriage due to pressure (internal or external) to be more submissive because Christ and the Church Metaphor which can be pressed into service in whatever way is expedient.

  286. Jenn wrote:

    I withdrew my membership from the church and asked them to discontinue communication with me.
    Following this, I received further communication stating that the communication (harassment) would continue further as they are still bound to holding me accountable for my sinful behavior due to being a member of the church even though I had withdrawn my membership to the physical local church.

    Welcome to TWW, Jenn.

    I am so sorry to hear about your case too of being terribly treated by church leadership when you already have a tough marriage to deal with.

    I think that we should all start calling the police, filing for restraining orders if necessary, and civil lawsuits against these abusive clergy who think they’re above the law.

  287. Jenn wrote:

    I had a very similar experience at HBC. I was separated from my husband. During this period I received repeat phone calls and text messages from the pastor and elder board. I was told that this would escalate to members of the church if I did not reconcile with my husband before “x” amount of time, at which point I would be presented to the church membership as an “unbeliever” and they would ask the membership to approach me as such.
    I withdrew my membership from the church and asked them to discontinue communication with me.
    Following this, I received further communication stating that the communication (harassment) would continue further as they are still bound to holding me accountable for my sinful behavior due to being a member of the church even though I had withdrawn my membership to the physical local church.
    I then sent an email asking the harassment to discontinue and received one from the pastor yet again stating why he believed his communication was not “harassment” and that it would continue.
    This experience pulled me away from the church for a time and caused me anxiety that I had not previously experienced.

    ….and there it is. Tim claimed that there were no other “counseling cases that were mis-handled” (read: women being coerced into ‘reconciliation’ and shamed/threatened when they refused). Good thing Jenn saved those messages! There are several other women who have come forward with similar stories from Heritage Bible Chapel as wel.

    What astounds me most is that they actually thought they would get away with this. These are intelligent, educated men. Did they REALLY think they can threaten, talk down to, and intimidate us, and we were all just going to take it? I mean…….really??

  288. Ken G wrote:

    I think they believe that God wasn’t given that chance.

    How might they determine that? From where do they derive their authority to make that judgment? I think you are correct about their reasoning, and I think their reasoning is fatally flawed logically and textually.

  289. I wonder what these elders employers would think of their harassment of this woman. I think this would be grounds for termination in most businesses today.

  290. Jenn wrote:

    I had a very similar experience at HBC. I was separated from my husband. During this period I received repeat phone calls and text messages from the pastor and elder board. I was told that this would escalate to members of the church if I did not reconcile with my husband before “x” amount of time, at which point I would be presented to the church membership as an “unbeliever” and they would ask the membership to approach me as such.
    I withdrew my membership from the church and asked them to discontinue communication with me.
    Following this, I received further communication stating that the communication (harassment) would continue further as they are still bound to holding me accountable for my sinful behavior due to being a member of the church even though I had withdrawn my membership to the physical local church.
    I then sent an email asking the harassment to discontinue and received one from the pastor yet again stating why he believed his communication was not “harassment” and that it would continue.
    This experience pulled me away from the church for a time and caused me anxiety that I had not previously experienced.

    I am so sorry for what you experienced.

    This church has a lot of nerve. What they are doing is not supportive, loving, or caring. It strikes me more as stalking, abuse, and harassment.

  291. @ Jenn:
    Welcome, Jenn.

    It sounds as if you also have grounds to “take the next step”.

    I think the elders at our former church were a bit more legally astute. They only harassed us a little. Relatively speaking.

    I still get jumped on by people still in that church whenever I post anything about gender “roles” or patriarchy on my FB. Occasionally they accuse me of slander for doing so, or for someone mentioning the name of the church in the FB comments.

  292. @ refugee:
    Yeah, I got that too. Slander, by definition, must be FALSE. Publishing a pastor’s email or relating a true experience is not slander.

    Reminds me of that line in Princess Bride: “I do not think that word means what you think it means!”

  293. Gram3 wrote:

    Naturally, Matt Chandler did not say they had been wrong but only acknowledged that they exercised their (Biblically mandated) authority with insufficient sensitivity.

    The Party Can Do No Wrong, Comrades.

  294. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    I just got a message from another woman who used to go to HBC…they did the same thing to her.

    Not surprising, this seems to be often the case when someone pushes back as you did. This is also why we can swat away the authoritarian defenders who pop in to chide us that a story such as yours is an isolated case, suggesting that you are the only victim. Authoritarian “pastors” usually leave behind a trail of bodies thrown under their bus. Thanks for your courage in taking them on publicly, the other survivors of HBC will find validation in your story.

  295. @ Gram3:

    Great so have you back commenting, Gram3. I’ve missed you and I have been thinking of you.

    Merry Christmas to you and Gramp3.

  296. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    @ refugee:
    Thank you!!! I will! This is the first Christmastime I can remember that I haven’t felt depressed and alone. Every day is a blessing!

    Wonderful! Be sure to enjoy the EChurch post this week. May this be a Christmas to remember.

  297. MidwesternEasterner wrote:

    Max wrote:

    roebuck wrote:

    And nowhere to seen is Jesus.

    New Calvinists talk a LOT about sovereign God, but seldom mention Jesus, and a hardly a word about the Holy Spirit.

    Already trending towards Deism, perhaps?

    Or Islam.

  298. Muff Potter wrote:

    In any fear based fundagelical religion, the hell card will almost always do the trick in retrieving runaway slaves.

    “Fear will keep the systems in line. Fear of this Battle Station.”
    — Grand Moff Tarkin, commanding officer, Death Star

  299. Remnant wrote:

    And when a time comes that you absolutely cannot take one more moment of an abusive angry outburst (not that all, or even most, abuse is loud or angry) and you yourself raise a voice in protest, then you are the one chastised for being out of control and labeled angry and abusive.

    They bring you to the breaking point and blame you for breaking.

    And when y9u break, they put on their Angel of Light mask, so serene, so polite, so respectable, so gentlemanly. “See what We Respectable Polite Gentlemen have to put up with — this out-of-control raging Crazy?”

    My brother. To me. Sixteen years while growing up.

  300. siteseer wrote:

    Or as the King James puts it, guile. I think that couching heartless control tactics in terms of christianese concern is a blatant example of guile.

    Concern(TM) is the Mark of the Sociopath.

  301. Daisy wrote:

    With so many blogs giving voice to women’s experiences like this, something has to change. I do not see how churches can maintain their ignorant policies and harassment against women who are being abused by their spouses.

    “ABRACADABRA = I Speak And IT! IS! SO!”

  302. Max wrote:

    If a Christian husband abuses his Christian wife, is he really a Christian?

    Max, not to defend abusers, but generations of “Christians” perpetrated the abuse of slavery. These would include Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield, foundational theologians of American evangicalism. Even as Christians we are victims of self-deception and cultural indoctrination. I prefer to judge a person’s behavior and allow God to decide their status as a Christian.

  303. Thank you Wartburgers for your donations to the GoFundMe account to help Shauna in Texas provide a Christmas for her son Billy (the abuse story that Dee wrote about here and how their Texas church blew it).

    Shauna has been blessed with a part-time job at a grocery store for 20-hours per week.
    But it isn’t enough for her as a single mom to pay the bills and to provide a Christmas for Billy (which she has been worried about as a mom).

    This is Shauna and Billy’s GoFundMe account. https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  304. Daisy there is one truly powerful force that will sway many in the American religion and it will change things very quickly and miraculous. That is economics it is the most powerful force in the universe for the Evangelical Corporation based in the United States. The church of Jesus is moved by the Holy Spirit through the power of grace but I find He is not welcomed in most of the Franchises and corporations using His name.

  305. brian wrote:

    The church of Jesus is moved by the Holy Spirit through the power of grace but I find He is not welcomed in most of the Franchises and corporations using His name.

    Spot on.

  306. Max wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Paul nowhere wrote in his canonical letters that Christians may not resort to the civil authorities.
    /
    Perhaps there’s more to “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s” than just paying taxes. Domestic abuse moves outside the jurisdiction of the church and is subject to civil law. Church leaders would not have to give an account for someone under their care who stepped away from the things that are God’s … let Caesar handle it!

    Actually Paul wrote specifically that this was the case in Romans 13:

    “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.” Romans 13:1-7 ESV

    The ESV even calls the governing authorities “ministers of God”. Interesting. And this would surely also apply to people calling themselves “ministers” who are in rebellion against the civil authorities to harm others.

  307. I’ve noticed that in several of the cases that TWW has covered (including Karen Hinkley’s) about church leadership giving members grief over divorce from abusive spouses and subsequently leaving that church, their targets have been women. I doubt they treat the men they go after any better (just as much victim-blaming) but I bet the language is different. With the women it’s all about “submission,” (I’ve reaaaally come to hate how they use that word) which is really code for plain subservience, and treating women as if they aren’t independent adults in charge of their own lives, but what kind of language and tactics do they use on men in the same situation?

  308. Serah wrote:

    I’ve noticed that in several of the cases that TWW has covered (including Karen Hinkley’s) about church leadership giving members grief over divorce from abusive spouses and subsequently leaving that church, their targets have been women. I doubt they treat the men they go after any better (just as much victim-blaming) but I bet the language is different. With the women it’s all about “submission,” (I’ve reaaaally come to hate how they use that word) which is really code for plain subservience, and treating women as if they aren’t independent adults in charge of their own lives, but what kind of language and tactics do they use on men in the same situation?

    I don’t know. Maybe Divorce Minister can add his thoughts later. He’s preaching today.

    I do know that a woman (Natalie) on Facebook posted that she is being excommunicated from John Piper’s former church in Minnesota, Bethlehem Baptist. Natalie has also left an abusive marriage of many decades. Natalie posted a few weeks ago on Facebook that she was at Christian therapist Leslie Vernick’s conference and met scores of other Christian women who were ordered to be excommunicated and shunned for leaving their abusive husbands!
    So Natalie wasn’t alone.

    In the future, when Natalie’s story wraps up she said that she would write it for The Wartburg Watch.

  309. Ruth Tucker wrote:

    I apologize if this has already been addressed, but considering the duress she has been under, is it too late for her to claim half the assets? Is there an attorney who might be willing to take this case pro bono?

    There are attorneys who do that kind of work, and I am one. But, this kind of case takes a tremendous amount of work and an attorney is more likely to take it on contingency — that is, for a percentage of whatever they get for her from the church. And this case would be rather lucrative.

  310. Velour wrote:

    Serah wrote:
    I’ve noticed that in several of the cases that TWW has covered (including Karen Hinkley’s) about church leadership giving members grief over divorce from abusive spouses and subsequently leaving that church, their targets have been women. I doubt they treat the men they go after any better (just as much victim-blaming) but I bet the language is different. With the women it’s all about “submission,” (I’ve reaaaally come to hate how they use that word) which is really code for plain subservience, and treating women as if they aren’t independent adults in charge of their own lives, but what kind of language and tactics do they use on men in the same situation?
    I don’t know. Maybe Divorce Minister can add his thoughts later. He’s preaching today.
    I do know that a woman (Natalie) on Facebook posted that she is being excommunicated from John Piper’s former church in Minnesota, Bethlehem Baptist. Natalie has also left an abusive marriage of many decades. Natalie posted a few weeks ago on Facebook that she was at Christian therapist Leslie Vernick’s conference and met scores of other Christian women who were ordered to be excommunicated and shunned for leaving their abusive husbands!
    So Natalie wasn’t alone.
    In the future, when Natalie’s story wraps up she said that she would write it for The Wartburg Watch.

    Natalie and I have become friends. I am working on a book project called “Broken Toys”, and she is one of the women who will be featured. I’m hoping either Barbara Roberts or Jeff Crippin will write the Foreword. Together, all of us are going to expose this evil, hatred-filled misogyny that is tolerated in American evangelical churches. And with Leslie Vernick’s work, we have quite a platform!

  311. Loren Haas wrote:

    Max wrote:

    If a Christian husband abuses his Christian wife, is he really a Christian?

    Max, not to defend abusers, but generations of “Christians” perpetrated the abuse of slavery. These would include Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield, foundational theologians of American evangicalism. Even as Christians we are victims of self-deception and cultural indoctrination. I prefer to judge a person’s behavior and allow God to decide their status as a Christian.

    even the devils believe ….. I have heard people say that their belief in Christ saved them, but I think HE is the One who does the saving

    some follow Him, some try to follow Him, some SAY they follow Him but they do not live for Him but serve another instead, some WANT to follow Him and are very, very wounded and have many troubles …. each person has a story of their own known fully only to God

    I think there IS some wisdom in what C.S. Lewis wrote in ‘The Last Battle’ concerning the characters who follow Aslan and those who follow the evil Tash:
    “Lord is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the
    earth shook (but his wrath was not against me)
    and said, It is false. Not because he and I are
    one, but because we are opposites, I take to
    me the services which thou hast done to him,
    for I and he are of such different kinds that no
    service which is vile can be done to me, and
    none which is not vile can be done to him.”

    Whatever the state of the soul of a person who is hurting others, in the Church we can never believe that bringing harm to others is something that honors God and this is where the neo-Cals get it so wrong:
    there is no kissing up to their Higher Power and kicking down on their subserviant submissives. They are in truth serving another master and a record is being kept, you bet.

  312. Max wrote:

    Yes, the Eternal Subordination of the Son mumbo-jumbo holds the Trinity hostage.

    They have attempted to re-define the Holy Trinity in a new way so that they can use THEIR premise to support THEIR patriarchal teachings about the ‘place of women’.

    Quite frankly, it is no more than a despicable display of heresy for the worst of self-serving reasons. But what is so very difficult to see is how they portray Our Lord. That is something I fear they may answer for if they have any inkling that they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit is doing so. They have only succeeded in letting the world know who they are themselves: schemes and manipulation of orthodox doctrines for selfish purposes can only be judged as despicable. They worship ‘male headship’: that is not our faith, that is not ‘Christianity’, no.

  313. Serah wrote:

    what kind of language and tactics do they use on men in the same situation?

    You need to love her more and lead her more. You need to serve her more. You need to be more patient with her. You need to cherish her when she is hurling abuse at you because Jesus blessed those who cursed him. You want to be like Jesus, right? She’s a sinner and so are you. You need to forgive her 490 times.

    The tactics are exactly the same because they are based on the same faulty interpretation of the Christ/Church metaphor which also supports Female Subordinationism. The words change but the toxicity is the same.

  314. @ Velour:
    Merry Christmas to you, too. I will be in and out at TWW for various reasons but try to keep up with the discussions here.

  315. Serah wrote:

    With the women it’s all about “submission,” (I’ve reaaaally come to hate how they use that word)

    I was once a part of a internet forum where people, mostly former abuse victims, hashed out their healings. It was secular, but they had Christian sub-groups.

    I can’t help remembering what this one lady said who escaped abuse. Her ex abused her with it so long and so hard that years later, every time see saw this word, even in situations that had nothing to do with female submission, it would kick up her PTSD.

    She would see something like, “Please submit payment to _________ (fill in the blank),” and it would send her into a tailspin.

    I don’t know. I’m just and ignorant woman. But I’m pretty sure Paul didn’t write those words in Ephesians and elsewhere in order to give women PTSD. And I’m pretty sure God isn’t happy with how that word has been used as a bludgeoning tool against his daughters.

  316. A serious issue in many reformed churches is a misunderstanding of sanctification. Are we sanctified by Christ or Moses? Covenant theology under plays the newness of the New Covenant.

    I finally had my “aha” moment when I was fenced from the Lord’s Supper for not being a member. I have a whole new outlook as to who is not “discerning the body” at 9marks and PCA churches who fence the table from the sheep.

  317. ishy wrote:

    The ESV even calls the governing authorities “ministers of God”. Interesting. And this would surely also apply to people calling themselves “ministers” who are in rebellion against the civil authorities to harm others.

    To quote James Woods’ character from the film “Contact”:

    That lS interesting, isn’t it?

    The word here translated “ministers” is λειτουργοὶ, which actually means a public official. The word is formed from two other words which mean “belonging to the people” and “work”, and it might literally be translated “those whose work belongs to the people”.

    In Greek-speaking Jewry (as in, for instance, the greek-language Septuagint manuscript that was widely used in Jesus’ time), and in the early church, the word was widely used to refer to a priestly office. The point being that a priest approached God on behalf of the people and the work he was doing was therefore considered a public service. If he was lax or negligent in doing it, he was obviously slighting God Himself, but he was also failing the people who had trusted him with an important task.

    Paul’s comment on the civic authorities (he identifies them very explicitly as such by referencing their tax-raising duties) is a direct challenge to a certain mindset that would have been a constant threat in the early church and that certainly is prevalent among the YoungRebelliousReformed set today. That is, a form of dualism whereby there’s “ordinary”, “secular” authority, and then there’s true, “spiritual” authority that we have in the church and that is superior. Ergo, eminent churchmen aren’t accountable to “secular” authorities because instead they are “under God’s authority”. Paul rebuffs this notion: he explicitly describes the IRS, the FBI, CPS and similar as representing God’s authority.

    As the events reported on TWW constantly prove, the increasingly-notorious First Amendment as currently applied is a great weakness for the American church. Undoubtedly (and, IMHO, rightly) founded to protect citizens from the appalling tyrannies of state religion, it has instead become a vast loophole in which godless and lawless men (and women) can hold themselves above the law.

  318. Dale wrote:

    I have a whole new outlook as to who is not “discerning the body” at 9marks and PCA churches who fence the table from the sheep.

    What is your take on what it means?

  319. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    As the events reported on TWW constantly prove, the increasingly-notorious First Amendment as currently applied is a great weakness for the American church. Undoubtedly (and, IMHO, rightly) founded to protect citizens from the appalling tyrannies of state religion, it has instead become a vast loophole in which godless and lawless men (and women) can hold themselves above the law.

    What? Did you actually say…? Gasp..choke…somebody get me something, like my rescue inhaler or my smelling salts or something…… Okay, I can feel my heart rate slowing back toward normal as I type. Please furnish some further information as to what you mean by that.

  320. Dale wrote:

    Covenant theology under plays the newness of the New Covenant.

    Bingo. There is no doubt that Covenant Theology (or Federal Theology) has influenced the New Calvinist movement and their view of God vs. Christ, leading to a distorted grace message. The aberrant teachings of J.I. Packer and R.C. Sproul in this regard have filtered their way into the new reformation.

  321. Christiane wrote:

    They have attempted to re-define the Holy Trinity in a new way so that they can use THEIR premise to support THEIR patriarchal teachings about the ‘place of women’.

    No doubt about it. If they can get you to believe that Jesus is subordinate to the Father rather than being one with Him, it’s an easier task to convince you that women are derivatives of men and lesser citizens of the Kingdom who must submit to them. Re-defining the Trinity to fit your belief and practice is dangerous ground, indeed.

  322. Dale wrote:

    I finally had my “aha” moment when I was fenced from the Lord’s Supper for not being a member. I

    I would love to know how they did this.

  323. The whole context of 1st Corinthians 11 and much of the entire book is division in the body Christ. And the solution Paul provides is stated in the 13th chapter – the preeminence of love.

    I think there is a misapplication of the text when most churches demand that the participants at the Supper engage in introspection for unconfirmed “sin.” When this is done, the focus turns away from Christ. I think the Supper should be open to all who have received the righteousness of Christ by faith alone. It is His righteousness that qualifies us to participate with Jesus and our brothers and sisters at the Supper.

    I am a former Catholic and it seems to me that seeking to qualify oneself for the table based on our level of righteousness is perilously close to the Roman Catholic notion of needing to be in a state of grace before participating.

    We are to “do this in memory” of Jesus. When we solemnly stare at our navel, we forget our former purification from sin and the fact that our siblings have also been purified.

  324. @ Max:
    essentially, they have played with the teachings that human persons are made in the image and likeness of God, are each endowed by God with an immortal soul, and for that reason alone, are deserving of dignity and respect.

    my own take on their treatment of Christ is that they needed to shore up their pitiful ‘male-headship’ idolatry

    but you can’t do what they did and not receive push-back from orthodox Christians …. I think it is at the confrontation over the place of Christ in the Holy Trinity that the male idolatry crowd crumbles before the witness of the whole Church.

  325. dee wrote:

    Dale wrote:

    I finally had my “aha” moment when I was fenced from the Lord’s Supper for not being a member. I

    I would love to know how they did this.

    The PCA in 1990 formulated a rule that requires membership in an evangelical church to join in the Lord’s Supper. The BFM 2000 mandates believers baptism to participate. Most 9marks churches that I have attended require membership. They all warn you not to partake unless you thus qualify. If I have learned nothing else from this website it is that their are multitudes of sheep that have been abused by their churches. In my mind these wounded ones are revictimized each time they are fenced from the table.

  326. Dale wrote:

    I am a former Catholic and it seems to me that seeking to qualify oneself for the table based on our level of righteousness is perilously close to the Roman Catholic notion of needing to be in a state of grace before participating.

    I would say that the Church asks us to make confession as needed and to try to reconcile our differences and make peace with those we have troubled in so far as it is possible to do this PRIOR to coming to communion. My understanding is that this has been something in place since the early days of the Church and in fact, does have some reference in sacred Scripture. I’ve had no problem with this request myself. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this with us.

    Ideally, I wish all people were invited to the table as Our Lord Himself ate with tax collectors and sinners, but I understand that the communion involves not only Our Lord but also the whole Body of Christ, and that means if we want to celebrate Eucharist, we need to make peace with God, with ourselves, and with one another and come to the table as a family together. I understand both sides. I can respect the perspective of those who disagree with the Church on how the Eucharist is to be celebrated in community.

  327. Loren Haas wrote:

    I prefer to judge a person’s behavior and allow God to decide their status as a Christian.

    When Jesus said “You shall know them by their fruit” (Matthew 7), He was presenting us a test whereby to determine the real character of those who profess His name, but who look nothing like Him in their walk. If someone’s behavior continues to run contrary to the mind of Christ … if the ‘fruit’ of his life does not reflect Christlikeness … is he a genuine follower of Christ?

    “It is not everyone who keeps saying to me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the man who actually does my Heavenly Father’s will. In ‘that day’ many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we preach in your name, didn’t we cast out devils in your name, and do many great things in your name?’ Then I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you. Go away from me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7)

    Certainly God is the ultimate judge of us all, but to maintain purity within His church now on earth, Scripture makes it clear “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?” (1 Cor 5:12). Every believer has been called to do this; every believer is a priest. But spiritual maturity and discernment must be exercised. It is not my responsibility to judge those outside the Body of Christ, but it is certainly my responsibility to judge those who I gather with who have taken the name of Christ, but who live outside His will … such as abusing others within the Body, whether the abuser be in the pew or pulpit.

  328. To the pastors at HBC

    @ Marie Notcheva:

    Rumor has it that the pastors are saying that the church cannot be liable for their actions since one would have to prove that they proceeded with their actions *with malice.* As my Russian grandmother would say; “Ay yi yi yi yi!”

    First, said pastors are erroneously looking at the legal definition of slander, malice and/or defamation instead of harassment. In order to prove slander, et al., one must demonstrate that:

    A lie was told.
    The lie was told deliberately and knowingly.
    The lie was knowingly told in order to bring harm to another (malice).

    I will be looking at the letter they sent Marie this week. In that letter, they incorrectly use the word slander. I wonder who is advising them…

    Now, the cancelation of membership is another matter altogether. In this instance, a party to the membership contract (covenant) must accept the resignation of another party to that contract. Once that contract is rescinded, as it has been in Marie’s case, pursuing the individual and claiming that they cannot resign because they are *under discipline* is a dippy construct put in place by authority driven churches. Unfortunately for the church and fortunately for the prevailed upon member, it has no legal standing in US law.

    In the US, people have the right to leave a voluntary association at any point, even with a so called *membership covenant.* In the same respect, a church can undo the membership contract from their end stating the person is no longer a member. I got this information from Jeff Anderson, the attorney who sued the Catholic Church for abuse. Trust me, he knows what he is doing.

    So, if the church had simply removed Marie from membership, with or without her blessing, they would be in the clear. But, authority driven jocks cannot stand not being able to control the lives of people. They think a few years in seminary gives them the right to do whatever they please. Thankfully, US law is put in place to protect people from such boorish behavior.

    So, once the contract is void by a resignation, as in Marie’s case, the church must cease and desist all efforts to pursue her against her will. This has nothing to do with malice and everything to do with her rights to liberty from groups that want to emulate Scientology.

    If they continue, this can be construed as harassment Let me put this simply. Cut the abusive baloney and let Marie go. Stop harassing her! This is nuts! And I thought my former church was weird…

  329. Max wrote:

    Perhaps there’s more to “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s” than just paying taxes. Domestic abuse moves outside the jurisdiction of the church and is subject to civil law. Church leaders would not have to give an account for someone under their care who stepped away from the things that are God’s … let Caesar handle it!

    These religious “leaders/shepherds” have gone beyond covering up, interfering with, and trying to prevent civil authorities from doing their jobs. They have appointed themselves as judges, juries, and executioners. They are usurping God.
    It’s almost like they think they will be the ones in charge of the Great White Throne.

  330. Perhaps “fencing the table” is to excommunicate without all the usual safeguards that would normally be associated with that process. At the last 9marks church I attended I was effectively excommunicated by the lead pastor for disagreeing with him privately concerning his cult of membership. I was told not to set foot on the property or the police would be contacted. Another form of excommunication without getting the body involved.

  331. I’m late in the game of reading this, but this stopped me in my tracks:

    “In just a few paragraphs we will outline our concerns for you…”

    At that point I scrolled to see how many “few paragraphs” they wrote. It’s a freaking four page letter!! This is the written equivalent of that awful two hour meeting Marie had to endure.

  332. @ Dale:

    Interesting. I was raised Baptist, studied catholicism for three years at a catholic church but did not convert, and am now an episcopalian. As you no doubt know, episcopalians come in a lot of diversity. Our particular church is “an episcopal church in the catholic tradition”. Which pretty much tells you all you need to know about what we think about the eucharist. We have a corporate prayer of confession and corporate absolution prior to receiving the elements (think state of grace) we have a ritualistic passing of the peace with the other pew persons in our vicinity (think being reconciled to ones neighbor) and we believe in the Real Presence but we are really vague about what that means. We practice open communion in which any person who has been baptized (any denomination, any amount of water, any age, trinitarian formula) is welcome to participate. All of this is ritual/liturgical, but that does not mean that we do not mean it. It only means that we do not ad lib it.

    So, that pretty much is rather opposite of what you are saying I suppose. We are neither Roman Catholic nor Conservative Protestant in our understand of imputed righteousness, which I gather is the doctrine you are talking about. I don’t know much about covenant theology. I will have to read up on that, because it does seem that that word keeps popping up in comments from time to time. I hate to be so ignorant of it. I do know about the calvinist doctrines of grace and the spin off beliefs and practices and teachings. I/we are not that.

  333. Dale wrote:

    I was told not to set foot on the property or the police would be contacted.

    Calvin held that threat over Geneva, but in his case the church was linked to the hip with the State. The magisterial reformers used the strong arm of the law to toss them out of the city, imprison, torture and kill those who opposed Calvin’s religion. Servetus was condemned by Calvin and subsequently burned at the stake by the State.

  334. I know this is a tad off topic, but relates to inclusiveness vs not. And it is part of what we are losing sleep over, so grant me this comment please. This morning after mass ResidentEducator told Father S that she was taking the kids out of the imploding Lutheran school and would be sending them to a conservative Baptist school and the school would be wanting a statement from him. Father S said, yeah you have to get out of that situation; I will sign anything they want; and he made the sign of the cross-that thing that priests do with the sideways flat right hand. This, people, is what I like about a ‘liberal’ tradition. F-r-e-e-d-o-m.

  335. “We explained…”
    “We have called you…”
    “We asked you…”
    “We urged you…”
    “We observe…”
    “We are called to continue to pursue you…”

    Hey, elders! You have a problem. You have become drunk with the power of lording over people’s lives. You have lost your first love. The reality is that you would never have been willing to live 20 years in an emotionally and psychologically abusive marriage. You have never walked in Marie’s shoes. So get over yourselves! You are not that important to have to so much control over someone’s life and tell them what to do!

  336. Kathi wrote:

    I scrolled to see how many “few paragraphs” they wrote. It’s a freaking four page letter!!

    Can you imagine the sermons in that joint?

  337. @ Max:

    I think you make my point for me:

    In 1968 I was judged to be in rebellion because my hair was past my collar. (I had hair then)
    In 1968 my Evangelical church was OK with abortion. Only Catholics were vocal about it.

    In 2016 hipster pastors are the norm.
    In 2016 no Evangelical church is OK with abortion.

    Judgements about behavior of those “saved” or “unsaved” vary.
    Yes, we must judge people on the basis of their behavior in order to protect ourselves and the community. But extending that to how God will judge them is a bridge too far.

  338. Max wrote:

    Servetus was condemned by Calvin and subsequently burned at the stake by the State.

    Whenever I mention Servetus on my blog, I am inundated by Calvin apologists who claim Calvin had nothing to do with his execution, claiming it was the government that did it. After laughing out loud for about 3 minutes, I proceed t explain that Calvin was in control and if he merely said “Stop it” , it would be stopped. The moment one must form an apologist brigade to defend an action, people like me know there is a serious problem.

  339. dee wrote:

    Can you imagine the sermons in that joint?

    Dee: Unfortunately, yes I can. I, too, have sat through a 2 hour meeting with a pastor that could have been resolved in 10 minutes. His sermons were painful to sit through.

  340. Loren Haas wrote:

    But extending that to how God will judge them is a bridge too far.

    I believe this is what the Bible means with “Judge not.” God only knows the heart and judges mercifully. I think there will be more people in heaven that the Calvinistas believe.

  341. @ Kathi:
    Doesn’t surprise me. The gospel boys have written all kinds of posts saying that the sermons are the pivotal experience for the Christians each week. They claim they spend 30 hours of *research* and then must pray a whole bunch and that is why they have no time to mingle with the riff raff.

  342. dee wrote:

    @ Dale:
    I am absolutely dying to hear you story. I know Todd Wilhelm would as well.

    I have written it in the former of a newsletter that I recently sent out. I tried to send it to you but apparently you never received it. I also did an analysis of 9marks.

  343. okrapod wrote:

    We are neither Roman Catholic nor Conservative Protestant in our understand of imputed righteousness, which I gather is the doctrine you are talking about.

    When I started my investigation of Calvinism almost two years ago I did a search on imputed vs imparted righteousness. I did this because I found that conservative evangelicals typically go apoplectic when someone expresses doubt about “imputed” righteousness. I found the Eastern Orthodox perspective on it here: https://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/gods-righteousness.

    This article had a huge impact on me seeing that theology is much less binary that I was taught in my conservative evangelical training. It’s been a fascinating journey ever since.

  344. Max wrote:

    Servetus was condemned by Calvin and subsequently burned at the stake by the State.

    Thankfully we have legal protection from horrendous church leaders such as Calvin but the same oppressive spirit is continues to be exhibited by some “pastors”. If HBC is eventually brought to heel, I will hope for a good outcome but am inclined to think the best we can expect from HBC leaders is the Matt Chandler approach, they will promise to be nicer despots next time.

    Instead of dismantling their command and control system they will continue to believe in their superior vision and will maintain their power over other people. Regardless how they tweak their oppressive system, it will continue to abuse.

  345. This former Baptist, former dispensationalist now attends one of those holiness churches. One that has grown up a bit with the times, and welcomes also those of us who like John Wesley are Anglo-Catholic in our views. Communion is completely open.

    Off topic but for those that enjoy studying the details of the faith, there is an interesting EWTN show on youtube called The Star of Bethlehem. Enjoy, even if you are not a partial preterist like me.

  346. dee wrote:

    @ Kathi:
    Doesn’t surprise me. The gospel boys have written all kinds of posts saying that the sermons are the pivotal experience for the Christians each week.

    Just like Fidel Castro’s speeches were the pivotal experience for the Cuban Proletariat.

  347. dee wrote:

    They claim they spend 30 hours of *research* and then must pray a whole bunch and that is why they have no time to mingle with the riff raff.

    The barista at their favorite hangout gets more airtime than any non-staff member at “their” church.

  348. dee wrote:

    God only knows the heart and judges mercifully. I think there will be more people in heaven that the Calvinistas believe.

    With some of these guys, I think they believe there will only be ONE person (guess who?) in Heaven.

  349. What all this boils down to is right and wrong.

    Forget the Bible. No one should be forced to associate with someone who has abused them.

    Everyone on all sides seems to be pulling verses out of their hats.

    It’s kind of become trench warfare.

    I feel bad for anyone caught in this.

    I really hope those trapped in the abusive church situations are able to close “the good book” for a while and listen to their hearts & heads.

    There’s times it’s ok to not turn the other cheek. It’s ok to be outraged. It’s ok to be offended, and above all, it’s ok to walk away.

    When it gets so awful, it’s ok to look out for number one.

    If you’ve ever flown on an airline they tell you in an emergency to put your own oxygen mask first. If you are incapacitated, you will not be able to help those who depend on you.

    It was tough to break the programming but I did it. I never experienced church abuse on a level identified here but l felt the pressure to conform.

    Once you have your freedom you can engage the church on your own terms.

    The cost is high though. I won’t get into details but my Christmas list got a lot shorter.

    And it’s going to take time.

    “Trust yourself, you know more than you think you do” – Dr. Spock

  350. Kathi wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Can you imagine the sermons in that joint?

    Dee: Unfortunately, yes I can. I, too, have sat through a 2 hour meeting with a pastor that could have been resolved in 10 minutes. His sermons were painful to sit through.

    Comrade Fidel’s speeches were said to run for Six Hours, with Enforcers patrolling the crowd to punish anyone who nodded off or didn’t applaud enough.

  351. Nancy2 wrote:

    It’s almost like they think they will be the ones in charge of the Great White Throne.

    What do you mean “think”?

    What would God ever do without Pastor Grima Wormtongue to whisper in His right ear telling Him who is REALLY Saved and (more important) who is NOT?
    “ME SHEEP! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! …)

  352. dee wrote:

    So, if the church had simply removed Marie from membership, with or without her blessing, they would be in the clear. But, authority driven jocks cannot stand not being able to control the lives of people.

    And Parade Their Own Righteousness before all those Heathen.

  353. okrapod wrote:

    I don’t know much about covenant theology. I will have to read up on that

    A really good analysis is the book “Christ is All: No Sanctification by the Law” by David Gay. I think you can get it on Kindle for 99 cents.

  354. Dale wrote:

    A serious issue in many reformed churches is a misunderstanding of sanctification. Are we sanctified by Christ or Moses?

    Neither.
    Calvin and Predestination.

  355. dee wrote:

    Can you imagine the sermons in that joint?

    I looked through their sermons posted on the site. One is titles “Symptoms of a Hardened Heart”. I wonder if it contains reference to harassment and intimidation of fellow believers.

  356. Bill M wrote:

    One is titles “Symptoms of a Hardened Heart”. I wonder if it contains reference to harassment and intimidation of fellow believers.

    of course, those pastors have marvelously gospel™ hearts.

  357. dee wrote:

    I believe this is what the Bible means with “Judge not.” God only knows the heart and judges mercifully. I think there will be more people in heaven that the Calvinistas believe.

    I think some of these Calvinists will never be in a position to do a headcount. They may not be there.

  358. Ken F wrote:

    theology is much less binary that I was taught in my conservative evangelical training

    Oh, yes. Preach it.

  359. dee wrote:

    of course, those pastors have marvelously gospel™ hearts.

    Is it any wonder then if this is ‘god’s spell’ (small ‘g’ intentional), that most of the world at large wants nothing to do with it?

  360. Muff Potter wrote:

    Is it any wonder then if this is ‘god’s spell’ (small ‘g’ intentional), that most of the world at large wants nothing to do with it?

    They make good news sound like bad news.

  361. dee wrote:

    I think there will be more people in heaven that the Calvinistas believe.

    I have no desire to go to evangelical heaven. The Jewish version (Olam Ha-Ba) of an afterlife is far more appealing to me.

  362. Jack wrote:

    Forget the Bible.

    Not everyone can do that.
    Don’t get me wrong. I agree with you.
    I just know there are those that NEED Bible answers. And those answers do exist. No matter what the Pastors Tim, Brian, Pete, Kevin, and Arnies of the world have to say with their, “the Bible clearly teaches” propaganda.

    For those here that do, here is an oldie but goodie:
    http://visionarywomanhood.com/are-boundaries-biblical/

    Uhm. To answer the question in the link. Are boundaries biblical? YES! Very much so.
    Shut up Tim, Brian, Pete, Kevin, and Arnie! You do NOT speak for God. You do NOT teach God’s will, and you do NOT represent Him on this earth.
    As an above commentor stated already, get over yourselves. And beyond that, repent from your sin of usurping God’s authority over others.

  363. Kathi wrote:

    . The reality is that you would never have been willing to live 20 years in an emotionally and psychologically abusive marriage.

    perhaps they have …. and that’s the problem ….. how could Marie expect understanding from such people, if that WERE the case?????

    Dear God, how could any decent Christian man EXPECT a human person to willingly submit to something so dreadful for Christ’s sake, when Our Lord was the One who went through torment for all of us? The only thing these men are doing is asking for another woman to be sacrificed again on the altar of male dominance ….. it has nothing to do with marriage or with Christianity, no.

  364. Bill M wrote:

    Thankfully we have legal protection from horrendous church leaders such as Calvin but the same oppressive spirit is continues to be exhibited by some “pastors”.

    Indeed, the Spirit of Calvin still lives! You can find it alive and well in a church near you. Different look, but same spirit. Calvin wasn’t a “pastor” and neither are some of the characters which go by his name.

  365. Max wrote:

    Calvin wasn’t a “pastor” and neither are some of the characters which go by his name.

    He was trained as a lawyer, which explains a lot.

  366. dee wrote:

    To the pastors at HBC
    @ Marie Notcheva:
    Rumor has it that the pastors are saying that the church cannot be liable for their actions since one would have to prove that they proceeded with their actions *with malice.* As my Russian grandmother would say; “Ay yi yi yi yi!”
    First, said pastors are erroneously looking at the legal definition of slander, malice and/or defamation instead of harassment. In order to prove slander, et al., one must demonstrate that:
    A lie was told.
    The lie was told deliberately and knowingly
    The lie was knowingly told in order to bring harm to another (malice.)
    I will be looking at the letter they sent Marie this week. In that letter, they incorrectly use the word slander. I wonder who is advising them…
    Now, the cancelation of membership is another matter altogether. In this instance, a party to the membership contract (covenant) must accept the resignation of another party to that contract. Once that contract is rescinded, as it has been in Marie’s case, pursuing the individual and claiming that they cannot resign because they are *under discipline* is a dippy construct put in place by authority driven churches. Unfortunately for the church and fortunately for the prevailed upon member, it has no legal standing in US law.
    In the US, people have the right to leave a voluntary association at any point, even with a so called *membership covenant.* In the same respect, a church can undo the membership contract from their end stating the person is no longer a member. I got this information from Jeff Anderson, the attorney who sued the Catholic Church for abuse. Trust me, he knows what he is doing.
    So, if the church had simply removed Marie from membership, with or without her blessing, they would be in the clear. But, authority driven jocks cannot stand not being able to control the lives of people. They think a few years in seminary gives them the right to do whatever they please. Thankfully, US law is put in place to protect people from such boorish behavior.
    So, once the contract is void by a resignation, as in Marie’s case, the church must cease and desist all efforts to pursue her against her will. This has nothing to do with malice and everything to do with her rights to liberty from groups that want to emulate Scientology.
    If they continue, this can be construed as harassment Let me put this simply. Cut the abusive baloney and let Marie go. Stop harassing her! This is nuts! And I thought my former church was weird…

    They did the same thing to Jenn (who sent me screenshots last night of her constant emails from Tim AFTER she ALSO resigned her membership in 2014). And it’s pretty easy from the October 14 and December 5 emails to prove malice – there were veiled threats and a couple false accusations in there.

    HBC has no idea how much trouble they are in legally. This just keeps getting deeper and deeper with more women coming forward.

  367. Amy Smith wrote:

    After one tweet of mine tagging pastors Tim Cochrell and Kevin Wright, they immediately deleted their accounts. This dude doesn’t like us calling them out.

    Neither does that Ken Vendler guy, apparently. He complains that you and the Deebs weren’t appointed by anyone to do what you do, and that you’re accountable to no one.

    So, who appointed him to complain about you in public? And to whom is he accountable?

    The lack of logic among these chauvinists and pastor-groupies is simply astounding…

  368. Max wrote:

    Bingo. There is no doubt that Covenant Theology (or Federal Theology) has influenced the New Calvinist movement and their view of God vs. Christ, leading to a distorted grace message. The aberrant teachings of J.I. Packer and R.C. Sproul in this regard have filtered their way into the new reformation.

    Miles Stanford wrote about this a lot way back when it was getting it’s foot in the door. https://web.archive.org/web/20101225182820/http://withchrist.org/MJS/subjects.htm

  369. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    The lack of logic

    Lack of logic.
    Lack of reason.
    Lack of love.
    Lack of justice.
    Lack of balance.
    Lack of wisdom.
    Lack of understanding.
    Lack of discernment.

    Wow. Started that list with a couple things in mind. And as I typed, I kept thinking of more and more. I had to stop myself cause this list to run into double and triple digits.

  370. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

    I’d also note that apparently Leah Remini’s show about Scientology is so popular that she’s having a special question and answer session on Monday night on A&E. You have simply no idea how happy this makes me. Twenty-plus years of hard work, we would have never seen this two decades ago, people were so afraid of Scientology.

    Woohoo!

  371. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    He complains that you and the Deebs weren’t appointed by anyone to do what you do

    I think the pretty much covers it: Ephesians 5:11-12 – “Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.”

    That sounds like a good enough appointment.

  372. Jack wrote:

    and above all, it’s ok to walk away.

    I have never heard a sermon on the rightness of walking away, but it is right there in scripture. Lots. I am talking from memory here, but as I recall the stories. Moses got the heck out of Egypt after he himself got into trouble, never mind that he was trying to save somebody’s life at the time. Elijah fled for his life after his triumph over the priests of Ba’al. He had done no wrong. Jesus apparently did not waste his time further on either Nazareth where they tried to throw him over a cliff or Capernaum where he could do not mighty works because of their unbelief. Jesus told the 70 to walk away and shake the dust off their sandals if their message was not received somewhere. They had to let Paul down in a basket over the city wall at one time. The NT teaching about slaves submit to your masters also includes the admonition to get your freedom if you can. About divorce Paul says basically do the best you can by your unbelieving spouse but if he/she want to go let them, the believer is not ‘bound’ in that case. If I were preaching on this I would research it, but since I am not…But I do see a pattern.

    I think there is a time to endure and a time to cut your losses and move on, as the scripture says a time to keep and a time to throw away, and I think that is biblical.

  373. siteseer wrote:

    Someone bought the copyright to his work (not sure who) and forced all of his articles offline after he died

    It would be interesting to know who that “someone” was.

  374. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Merry Christmas to you, too. I will be in and out at TWW for various reasons but try to keep up with the discussions here.

    That’s good to hear.

    Thank you for the good wishes.

  375. Kathi wrote:

    At that point I scrolled to see how many “few paragraphs” they wrote. It’s a freaking four page letter!! This is the written equivalent of that awful two hour meeting Marie had to endure.

    Maybe they should heed Miss Manners’ advice! https://books.google.com/books?id=Q348PWE1p6MC&pg=PA605&dq=miss+manners+%22most+of+them+happen+to+be+four+pages+long%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjigZ6Vq_7QAhUKzmMKHQi1AxMQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=miss%20manners%20%22most%20of%20them%20happen%20to%20be%20four%20pages%20long%22&f=false

    LOL

  376. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Natalie and I have become friends. I am working on a book project called “Broken Toys”, and she is one of the women who will be featured. I’m hoping either Barbara Roberts or Jeff Crippin will write the Foreword. Together, all of us are going to expose this evil, hatred-filled misogyny that is tolerated in American evangelical churches. And with Leslie Vernick’s work, we have quite a platform!

    That’s good to know, Marie.

    I’m glad to hear about the book.

    I try to support Natalie and I ask others to do the same by ordering soaps and other personal care products from her business that she uses to support herself and her children. A friend here on TWW saw one of my comments and ordered some of Natalie’s
    products and loves them. High quality stuff.
    http://www.applevalleynaturalsoap.com/

  377. siteseer wrote:

    Mary27 wrote:
    The bottom line is that the unpardonable sin is for an abused wife to leave her marriage.

    What a terrible and heartbreaking situation.

    We’ve heard in the past from some men who were in abusive marriages, too, that the church system worked against them, as well. It seems that the church does not see abuse as a problem, and marriage has become an idol to be served above God himself. In fact, it seems like their hierarchy is church first, then marriage, then, somewhere down the line, is God.

    I am thinking it’s become kind of like men who won’t break up with their girlfriends but will do everything possible to drive them away…so the person in the marriage who makes it unbearable gets no blame but the person who finally says enough does. Stupid.

  378. Just re-read the excerpt at the top of the post:

    “Marie, we love you in Christ and our hearts ache for the consequences of your choices in your own life and in your family. We are praying that God would lift the blinding effects of your sin and help you to recognize your sin and repent of it so that you might be restored.”

    HBC Elders

    Fluent Christianese, oozing Concern(TM) and Sincerity(TM) like a Sociopath, the Politeness and Intellect of Gentleman Theologians(TM), with a side helping of Love Bombing.

    Screwtape would be Proud.

  379. Lea wrote:

    I am thinking it’s become kind of like men who won’t break up with their girlfriends but will do everything possible to drive them away…so the person in the marriage who makes it unbearable gets no blame but the person who finally says enough does.

    This is a standard M.O. of abusers who HAVE to look Respectable and Righteous. Otherwise how could they play the Poor Poor Innocent Victim of The Crazy B#tch? (ed.)

    “Not out of Heavenly virtue, but Hellish Respectability.”
    — Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries

  380. siteseer wrote:

    Miles Stanford wrote about this a lot way back when it was getting it’s foot in the door … Someone bought the copyright to his work (not sure who) and forced all of his articles offline …

    It would make sense that “someone” within the New Calvinist movement would want to purge his work from Christian history with writings like:

    “Calvinist teaching concerning salvation is that Christ gained eternal life for the elect by keeping the Law on their behalf (“active obedience”), and, in dying (“passive obedience”), He paid the penalty of the broken Law. The heart of all Calvinism is the Law! Remove their doctrine from that center and there is total collapse … The entire realm of the believer’s identification with the Lord Jesus in His death and ascension is not only misunderstood, but usually avoided by Calvinism … Calvinism emerged from the dark ages, but is still in the twilight – half in the darkness and death of the law, half in the light and life of the Saviour. It has a fleshly affinity for fetters, hence it is the life of the ‘hang-dog’ heart, the wretchedness of Romans Seven.” (Miles Stanford)

    Yep, I can see why the new reformers wouldn’t want you to know what Brother Stanford knew. He, too, saw the over-emphasis on “God” at the expense of Christ.

  381. Bill M wrote:

    I looked through their sermons posted on the site. One is titles “Symptoms of a Hardened Heart”. I wonder if it contains reference to harassment and intimidation of fellow believers.

    No, only Rebellious Spirit against Pastor and Elders.

    “If you question what I Say To You
    YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!!!”
    — Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”

  382. dee wrote:

    Whenever I mention Servetus on my blog, I am inundated by Calvin apologists who claim Calvin had nothing to do with his execution, claiming it was the government that did it.

    Two words: PLAUSIBLE. DENIABILITY.

    Like Calvary Chapel, a Single Move of God United Behind Papa Chuck when it was to CC’s advantage, all totally-independent Moses Models when Plausible Deniability was needed.

  383. @ Ken F:
    I’ve heard it’s a ‘thought system’ where one idea (construct) supports the next idea and so on until you get a string of ideas that are man-made so that their theologians use their own man-made ideas to support one another ….. a strange sort of ‘logic’, if you can call it that

    OTOH, I am so very impressed with the Christianity of the Dutch Reformed Church in New Jersey ….. I see them living the faith and I don’t hear or have any inkling that they are like the neo-Cals coming out of SBC seminaries these days …..

    they don’t seem related to the neo-Cal folk at all, and yet they call themselves ‘reformed’ ….. beautiful Christian people indeed

  384. Ken F wrote:

    I’ve had similar conversations.

    A good list of contradictions to reflect on, Ken. Thanks.

    Every time I’ve had a discussion with a New Calvinist, they grow quiet when I relate my personal experience with the living Christ. They mistrust folks who have a testimony. They prefer to put all their trust in rigid unrevisable doctrines of grace, rather than a direct experience of Grace. If and when the New Calvinist dust settles, one of the greatest mission fields for evangelism will be within their ranks. Sooner or later these folks will grow disillusioned with reformed law and start searching for life in Christ.

  385. @ Christiane:
    Classical Calvinists are not the same folks as New Calvinists. As a Southern Baptist, I have worshiped alongside “old” Calvinists for decades (even though they have been an SBC theological minority). I have found them to be civil and respectful in their discourse, offering good perspectives to Bible studies. On the other hand, this new breed is arrogant, aggressive, and militant … totally different beasts from their reformed brethren in other Calvinist groups.

  386. @ okrapod:

    I was referring to the reluctance of the American courts to intervene in cases of spiritual abuse because The_First_Amendment. The Amendment itself is often referenced by the phrase “separation of church and state”, although that’s more a legal principle; the wording of the amendment, AWWBA, is

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    … which is actually about much more than just the separation of church (or, for that matter, mosque) and state.

    I doubt very much whether the FoundingFathers (incidentally, where were the Founding Mothers?) foresaw a time in which shepherding doctrine and its equally toxic mutations would lead individuals to establish a religion, and indulge in the free (for them) exercise thereof, in such a way as to subject ordinary Americans to cruelty, slavery and oppression.

  387. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I doubt very much whether the FoundingFathers…

    P.S.

    Shepherding and cultic religion doesn’t by any means just happen in the US, of course, but that’s where the Constitution under discussion applies.

  388. On a different note, for Christmas. Father S has a new project for our church. It seems that both the university medical center hospital and also the county hospital are looking for a church to bury abandoned dead babies. So, we have some land, and FS is saying surely we can clear some of it to establish a cemetery for abandoned dead babies. Yeah, I will get behind that, but how heartbreaking that there even is such a thing as abandoned dead babies.

    And what is Christmas but an example of the utter difference between unto us a child is born, and what can be do with these abandoned wee ones.

  389. @ okrapod:
    Okrapod, you have brought the Wartburgers back to the reality of the world we live in. While we fuss about religion gone amiss, the lesser ones among us are suffering and dying. I will never get “abandoned dead babies” out of my mind.

  390. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I doubt very much whether the FoundingFathers (incidentally, where were the Founding Mothers?) foresaw a time in which shepherding doctrine and its equally toxic mutations would lead individuals to establish a religion, and indulge in the free (for them) exercise thereof, in such a way as to subject ordinary Americans to cruelty, slavery and oppression.

    On the contrary, while maybe not shepherding doctrine specifically, I think they foresaw much evil from unrestrained religious leaders. Many of the early leaders in the republic were quite distrustful if not disdainful of clergy.

    John Adams on referencing “abuses” and the cross of Christ:
    “knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history.”
    I think Adams knew of a few HBC Elders of his day.

  391. Velour wrote:

    Marie Notcheva wrote: Natalie and I have become friends. I am working on a book project called “Broken Toys”, and she is one of the women who will be featured. I’m hoping either Barbara Roberts or Jeff Crippin will write the Foreword. Together, all of us are going to expose this evil, hatred-filled misogyny that is tolerated in American evangelical churches. And with Leslie Vernick’s work, we have quite a platform!

    That’s good to know, Marie.

    And we will be happy to write a book review. 🙂  Remember, Dee and I receive NO KICKBACKS for book recommendations, unlike some Neo-Cal bloggers…

  392. Christiane wrote:

    I’ve heard it’s a ‘thought system’ where one idea (construct) supports the next idea and so on until you get a string of ideas that are man-made so that their theologians use their own man-made ideas to support one another ….. a strange sort of ‘logic’, if you can call it that

    Yes, I very much agree with this. And I also agree with Max that the older Calvinists tend to be much more gracious in accepting differences in theological beliefs.

    I am also becoming more and more convinced that their bad theology is at the root of their stance on the types of abuses covered here. This house of cards needs to collapse soon. It probably will not happen until the right type of pressure is applied.

  393. Max wrote:

    I will never get “abandoned dead babies” out of my mind.

    we had it happen near us …… a beautiful new-born baby boy, dressed and wrapped in blanket, was left in the woods in the snow and it was freezing ….. we thought the mother must have been very young

    it was written about in the news and the reporter said he hoped the angels came quickly for the child to take it home, as it was found dead, frozen … the sadness of this was felt in our community for a long time and efforts were made to get word out to leave unwanted children at the hospital or at a Church, rather than to hide it away to die alone ….. heart-breaking? oh yeah, very much

    the town buried the little one with great loving care and prayer vigils were held …. we never found out who the mother was or even if she lived in our own community, but we took that baby into our hearts and mourned him

  394. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    HBC has no idea how much trouble they are in legally. This just keeps getting deeper and deeper with more women coming forward.

    Praying that more women from HBC (as well as other churches) will come forward. If anyone wants us to tell their story (like we have told Marie's), send us an email or give us a call.  Hoping Jenn will give this offer serious consideration.

    Our contact info is at the top of our website.

  395. Ken G wrote:

    From the reading of the letter, I don’t think the church believes that abuse is not grounds for divorce. It’s a matter of the timing of the divorce. That is, give God a chance to heal and restore the marriage. If that fails then get a divorce. I think they believe that God wasn’t given that chance.

    This is how they lie, though. God had 20 years. God had two years. God had a year. How long do they think God needs?

    Answer: As long as Pastor Tim says. Which is not a good answer.

  396. dee wrote:

    If they continue, this can be construed as harassment Let me put this simply. Cut the abusive baloney and let Marie go. Stop harassing her! This is nuts! And I thought my former church was weird…

    I just have these words to say to HBC: “intentional infliction of emotional distress.” That is all.

  397. Max wrote:

    I will never get “abandoned dead babies” out of my mind.

    Nor will I Max. My conscience won’t let me.

  398. Christiane wrote:

    the sadness of this was felt in our community for a long time and efforts were made to get word out to leave unwanted children at the hospital or at a Church, rather than to hide it away to die alone ….

    There are Safe Houses nationwide implemented for a number of purposes. Most fire stations are safe houses where an unwanted baby can be taken and I understand that program has been fairly successful for both that purpose as well as teens in need of help.

    http://www.safehavenbabyboxes.com/

  399. Max wrote:

    They prefer to put all their trust in rigid unrevisable doctrines of grace, rather than a direct experience of Grace.

    Here are some passages from the New Calvinst Bible (NCB)https://predestinationstation.wordpress.com/2013/12/28/introducing-the-new-calvinist-bible-ncb/. Passages like this help to illustrate their theology.

  400. Lea wrote:

    This is how they lie, though. God had 20 years. God had two years. God had a year. How long do they think God needs?

    Answer: As long as Pastor Tim says. Which is not a good answer.

    Agree!

  401. Ken F wrote:

    Max wrote:

    Calvin wasn’t a “pastor” and neither are some of the characters which go by his name.

    He was trained as a lawyer, which explains a lot.

    You want to hear something funny? I read Calvin’s “Institutes” when I was in law school. As *light reading*. NO KIDDING.

  402. Mara wrote:

    Forget the Bible.

    Not everyone can do that.
    Don’t get me wrong. I agree with you.
    I just know there are those that NEED Bible answers.

    Fair enough. I sometimes get ahead of myself. Been away too long I guess.

  403. okrapod wrote:

    I have mixed feelings about this actually. I have some really uncomfortable past experience with people who insisted that someone was not ‘saved’ unless they could name a date and time in which they ‘got saved’. This put some of us who were practically born on the back pew of the church, who had been taught that at some point one made a public profession of faith and got baptized, and that there was no need for some date and time when one fell off one’s horse en route to Damascus.

    At my presby church they mentioned this specifically as part of the baptizing babies thing, and that in Calvin’s day (I think) they baptized you as a baby and then expected some sort of fruit/proof of regeneration? And I was thinking for baptists it’s basically a baptism which is when (as a child for those raised in church) you officially make that decision. But you are always sort of there, you know? So that is actually one way where baptism as a baby makes a little more sense now.

  404. @ okrapod:
    Not sure of the context of the Bible in those cases but no one should endure when it comes to spiritual abuse. Or spousal. Or familial.
    Get out of Dodge if you can.

  405. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    My God. I just got a message from another woman who used to go to HBC…they did the same thing to her.Se said even the wording of Tim’s letter was eerily similar to mine. I knew of a few cases like this at HBC, (of course the leaders tried to deny there were others), but this was relatively recently!

    Goodness! Do they have a form letter for this?

  406. Lea wrote:

    Goodness! Do they have a form letter for this?

    Perhaps it happens so often they have boilerplate paragraphs they can plug into a letter. I use Quick Parts in Outlook for some things I do at work (incident investigations, problem ticket audits, creating on call phone lists). Maybe they do too!

  407. Jack wrote:

    What all this boils down to is right and wrong.

    Forget the Bible. No one should be forced to associate with someone who has abused them

    In the case of me, my wife and my daughter the pastors were more concerned with getting us to allow the family that abused my wife and daughter around us again. We refused on the grounds that the pastors word that everything was covered by grace and we were in sin by our refusal to obey the pastors as well as forgive the offenders and act as though the last 12 months had never happened.

    Forgivness was not the issue, it was the refusal of the offenders to acknowledge their actions/words and the insistence of the pastors that we were sinners and therefore had a hand in it as well. If you cant acknowledge what you’ve done or stop doing what we’ve asked you to stop doing there is no reason I’m going to allow you to continue being around us.

  408. @ Lea:

    It starts when they get involved, anything before that doesn’t count because they as the “Shepherd ” wasnt there to act as the all knowing benevolent guide through this “sin.” Therefore your response is sinful because they only have been just told about it and you are just having a sinful emotional resonse to something and must be guided through it by the “one who must give account,” get back in your place and submit woman….

  409. @ Victorious:
    the incident in our community occurred in 2003, and after it happened there was a lot of reporting about other incidents like it happening elsewhere ….. sadly these tragedies at least led people to DO something positive to offer a safe alternative for the sake unwanted babies

  410. @ Christiane:

    I got the impression that mostly what the hospitals are talking about is babies who die in the hospital and the parents abandon them when they die. I did not get the impression that these were foundlings, but perhaps they meant both.

  411. @ Jack:

    Np. I’ve dealt with both those who need Bible answers and those who turned atheist or pagan in dealing with this stuff. And some of my Christian turned atheist friends turned back Christian again. But they had to go through atheist land to get there first. That was the only way to root out all the religious toxicity.

    There are many roads. I want to make sure to be respectful of people and their personal recoveries.

  412. Kathi wrote:

    The reality is that you would never have been willing to live 20 years in an emotionally and psychologically abusive marriage. You have never walked in Marie’s shoes. So get over yourselves! You are not that important to have to so much control over someone’s life and tell them what to do!

    My sentiments exactly.

    I was just saying on another thread (and maybe earlier on this one) that the guys who command women to stay in abusive relationships would not themselves take abuse off another man – but they expect women to do so.

  413. @ dee:
    I wonder if people like that realize that Christianity can survive just fine without Calvinism?

    Calvinism is not necessary for the faith, to be a Christian, to believe in Christ.

  414. Lea wrote:

    I am thinking it’s become kind of like men who won’t break up with their girlfriends but will do everything possible to drive them away…so the person in the marriage who makes it unbearable gets no blame but the person who finally says enough does. Stupid.

    I’ve had that happen in romantic relationships and in the world of work (platonic working relationships).

    As far as employment goes – the boss makes your work day so miserable she wants to get you to quit because you quitting requires less time, effort paperwork on her part than her firing you.

  415. I am well acquainted with the news media in the Boston/Worcester area. I can just imagine how they would view a church which was trying to make an abused woman return to her abuser. Better yet,I can imagine how they would react if they saw the abuser getting the royal treatment in the church because he is *repentant.*

  416. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    They did the same thing to Jenn (who sent me screenshots last night of her constant emails from Tim AFTER she ALSO resigned her membership in 2014). And it’s pretty easy from the October 14 and December 5 emails to prove malice – there were veiled threats and a couple false accusations in there

    Please let any of these women know that we will be happy to post their stories. It is astonishing to me how ill-advised these so called leaders are. Even their elders are acting naive. Good night! What a bunch!

  417. On the one hand, it is embarrassing that “top notch” SBC seminaries are turning out narcissistic anti-christ “pastors” like this. On the other hand, I do hope Marie follows through with legal action. This kind of bullying is beyond disgusting and is illegal in many jurisdictions, including my own.

  418. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I do hope Marie follows through with legal action. This kind of bullying is beyond disgusting and is illegal in many jurisdictions, including my own.

    Are you aware of lawsuits against specific churhc “leaders”? If it is difficult to file a civil suit against a church, what about filing suit against the individuals who are doing the harrassing? Or are they under some kind of legal protection because they are doing it in the name of the church>

  419. Daisy wrote:

    I wonder if people like that realize that Christianity can survive just fine without Calvinism?

    It did for the first 1500 years and despite it for the past 500.

  420. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    it is embarrassing that “top notch” SBC seminaries are turning out narcissistic anti-christ “pastors” like this

    And with doctorates no less! As I keep saying, education does not produce one ounce of revelation.

  421. Velour wrote:

    It’s high time that these types of pastors/elders be arrested and prosecuted for the likes of criminal conspiracy (an agreement among 2 or more persons to commit a criminal act), stalking, and other crimes. And to be sued in civil courts.

    Correct.

  422. Brother Maynard wrote:

    @ Lea:
    It starts when they get involved, anything before that doesn’t count because they as the “Shepherd ” wasnt there to act as the all knowing benevolent guide through this “sin.”

    IOW, Arrogance, pure and simple, thinking they can do what the lord has not done, and other counselors have not done, and other pastors have not done. They do know pride is a sin, right?

  423. Lea wrote:

    IOW, Arrogance, pure and simple, thinking they can do what the lord has not done, and other counselors have not done, and other pastors have not done. They do know pride is a sin, right?

    They’re the Predestined Elect.
    God’s Speshul Pets, Elected before the Foundation of the World.
    And they have the Get Out Of Hell Free Card signed by God Himself certifying that They Cannot Sin.

  424. dee wrote:

    Marie Notcheva wrote:

    They did the same thing to Jenn (who sent me screenshots last night of her constant emails from Tim AFTER she ALSO resigned her membership in 2014). And it’s pretty easy from the October 14 and December 5 emails to prove malice – there were veiled threats and a couple false accusations in there

    Please let any of these women know that we will be happy to post their stories. It is astonishing to me how ill-advised these so called leaders are. Even their elders are acting naive. Good night! What a bunch!

    Dee, you were saying you were getting inquiries from some journalist?
    If these other victims of HBC come on board, maybe you can give him a scoop?

  425. @ Ken F:
    This is highly relative to jurisdiction; I recommend asking a local attorney. There are hundreds of lawsuits against churches and elders, the details of which can be researched online. I was involved in one lawsuit, but it actually revolved around stealing property, not abuse.

  426. Bill M wrote:

    John Adams on referencing “abuses” and the cross of Christ:
    “knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history.”
    I think Adams knew of a few HBC Elders of his day.

    John Adams of Massachusetts came from New England Puritan stock.

  427. Max wrote:

    On the other hand, this new breed is arrogant, aggressive, and militant … totally different beasts from their reformed brethren in other Calvinist groups.

    As I keep saying, three generations ago they would have been on fire for Communism instead of Calvinism — getting in on the ground floor of The Mass Movement That WILL Remake The World To Perfection!

  428. Christiane wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    I’ve heard it’s a ‘thought system’ where one idea (construct) supports the next idea and so on until you get a string of ideas that are man-made so that their theologians use their own man-made ideas to support one another ….. a strange sort of ‘logic’, if you can call it that

    Like Medieval Angelology and Demonology — each generation taking the previous generation’s speculations as fact and foundation for their generation’s speculation. Until after a couple centuries you have these incredibly elaborate encyclopedias and atlases of Heaven and Hell and all the Choirs (ranks) and Orders and organization therein in great detail.

  429. siteseer wrote:

    @ siteseer:

    Miles Stanford also took a lot of the leaders of those days to task https://web.archive.org/web/20101202081834/http://withchrist.org/MJS/persons.htm

    Someone bought the copyright to his work (not sure who) and forced all of his articles offline after he died but many still live on at the wayback page.

    Not “forced offline”.
    As of now, They Never Existed, Comrade.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Soviet_censorship_with_Stalin2.jpg

  430. Deb wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Marie Notcheva wrote: Natalie and I have become friends. I am working on a book project called “Broken Toys”, and she is one of the women who will be featured. I’m hoping either Barbara Roberts or Jeff Crippin will write the Foreword. Together, all of us are going to expose this evil, hatred-filled misogyny that is tolerated in American evangelical churches. And with Leslie Vernick’s work, we have quite a platform!
    That’s good to know, Marie.
    And we will be happy to write a book review.   Remember, Dee and I receive NO KICKBACKS for book recommendations, unlike some Neo-Cal bloggers…

    That would be great! A book review for Marie’s book.

  431. dee wrote:

    I am well acquainted with the news media in the Boston/Worcester area. I can just imagine how they would view a church which was trying to make an abused woman return to her abuser. Better yet,I can imagine how they would react if they saw the abuser getting the royal treatment in the church because he is *repentant.*

    The kicker is, my abuser doesn’t even PRETEND to be “repentant”. (After however many more months of “counseling”).

    OCTOBER 7, 2016:

    ME: “Do you at least admit that you abused me?”
    HIM: “No! I didn’t! You DESERVED ALL THAT AND MORE! You were not submissive enough. You are the reason I had to get so angry.”
    ME: “Wait….do you actually BELIEVE that? Your sin is my fault.”
    HIM: “Yes, it is!!”
    ME: “So you didn’t abuse me, those 20 years of constant screaming, humiliation, criticism, false accusations….”
    HIM: “No! You deserved it. Everyone see (sic) you have problem with the authority.”

    Yup. All kinds o’ repentance going on there, I tell you what. 😉

  432. Max wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    other changes being implemented by our newly hired pastor
    Hmmmm … start looking for other red flags … it can happen even to a Wartburger.

    Did anyone ask the new pastor, before he was hired, about this thoughts about John Calvin?

  433. @ Deb:
    The Lord knew exactly where to put you in your journey to prepare you for your future TWW mission. You can better spot the deceivers now.

  434. @ Marie Notcheva:

    I spend time with a lot of domestic violence victims, and none of their abusers think they’ve abused them in any way. The abusers actually think they are entitled to punish their victims, and claim they are doing it for their own good.

    One woman’s husband who beat her on a regular basis for 20 years, admitted to hitting her only once in his entire life.

    They are sick people…and very charming, bright, and manipulative.

  435. Velour wrote:

    Did anyone ask the new pastor, before he was hired, about this thoughts about John Calvin?

    I’ve known pastor search committees which asked those questions, only to be deceived with elusive answers. New Calvinists are really good at stealth and deception – they have used their “talents” well to takeover non-Calvinist churches in the SBC and elsewhere … and justify it for the sake of the new reformation.

  436. @ Ken F:

    Maledictions. really?

    Even Jesus forgave those who deliberately betrayed him, beat him, and killed him. What gives Sproul and Challies the right to do otherwise? Whom do they follow? To whose image do they try to conform their lives?

  437. Mara wrote:

    Marie Notcheva wrote:
    You DESERVED ALL THAT AND MORE!
    The words of a die-hard, unrepentant abuser.

    Oh, but I’m the one with the ‘sinful reactions’, claim the leaders (I refuse to call them pastors) at HBC. And thus they shall spin it to their congregation, in hopes of humiliating me.

    Three words.

    BRING. IT. ON.

    At least half their membership knows the real story, and supports me 100%. They will hang themselves on their own words and lose even more members if they try that tactic. 🙂

    A sure sign they have desperately prideful and hardened hearts.

  438. Ken F wrote:

    If it is difficult to file a civil suit against a church, what about filing suit against the individuals who are doing the harrassing? Or are they under some kind of legal protection because they are doing it in the name of the churc

    Let me reassure you all. In this particular situation, where a member resigned and it is documented, along with all of the emails, etc kept by Marie, it is not difficult whatsoever.

  439. dee wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    f it is difficult to file a civil suit against a church, what about filing suit against the individuals who are doing the harrassing? Or are they under some kind of legal protection because they are doing it in the name of the churc
    Let me reassure you all. In this particular situation, where a member resigned and it is documented, along with all of the emails, etc kept by Marie, it is not difficult whatsoever.

    Especially where there are multiple former members who did the same thing, and have saved all the written documentation. 🙂

    We are not nearly as stupid as Timmy & Co. take us to be. 😀 😀

  440. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Dee, you were saying you were getting inquiries from some journalist?

    The Boston Globe dominates the market. Do you remember them from Spotlight? I am sure they, along with subsidiaries would be interested on how evangelicals do abuse. Not only do we cover up child sex abuse, we abuse women who are abused by husbands.

  441. Max wrote:

    @ Deb: The Lord knew exactly where to put you in your journey to prepare you for your future TWW mission. You can better spot the deceivers now.

    It's a piece of cake now. 😉

  442. Deb wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I don’t think they knew to ask.

    So sad that it has come to this. NeoCalvinists deceiving the church folk.

    And I learned here on TWW that we do have to ask these questions.

  443. Thank you, friends, to all who have donated whatever amount you could afford to the GoFundMe account so that Shuana in Texas can provide a Christmas for her son Billy (whose tragic story of being abused by a church member was written about by Dee here).

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

    Shauna is a single mom, works part-time at a grocery store, and she needs assistance to pay basic bills and fund Christmas.

    God bless you all. Please continue to pray for this little family and their needs.

  444. Just got yet another message from a former HBC member who was bullied out – along with her husband (not a divorce case – just garden-variety spiritual abuse). Same summer Jenn was being tortured by Tim over HER “unbiblical divorce”. I’m sitting here thinking, ‘Don’t they have more important things to do than antagonize people?! When do they get time to write sermons?”

    “Dysfunctional” and “authoritarian” are two word former HBC members keep using to describe the church, again and again. That alone speaks volumes.

  445. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    When do they get time to write sermons?”

    Many pastors copy sermons or buy sermons from sermon services.

    I think my former pastor must do this at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. His Ph.d. is a fake from a Missouri diploma mill and so is his other “advanced degree”. A teaching credential he claimed he had supervisors with California Teacher Credentialing said is a lie and they’ve never credentialed anyone with his name to teach. He’s cheated at everything else, lied about countless dear Christians (complete with excommunications and shunnings). His cuttiing corners and doing things the easy way must also show up in his 90 minute sermons. I just haven’t had the time to check.

  446. Velour wrote:

    So sad that it has come to this. NeoCalvinists deceiving the church folk. And I learned here on TWW that we do have to ask these questions.

    Frank Cox addressed this issue when he was nominated for the SBC presidency:

    “Evidently there are pastors accepting churches, never raising the flag that they are a Calvinist to the pastor search committee. They are called to the church and begin to teach their view and it is bringing great strife to some of our congregations. That concerns me. I feel pastors who hold to Calvinistic views ought to be up front with the congregation that is calling them, just as pastors who believe in “whosoever” ought to be up front to those congregations who hold to Reformed theology. I also believe pastor search committees must be thorough in their responsibility to investigate more, so they can have a reasonable understanding as to what their new pastor believes before they issue a call to him. There is mutual responsibility on both the pastor’s part and the congregation’s part in dealing with this issue.”

  447. @ Marie Notcheva:
    Let them know we are here for them. And tell them to keep ALL written communication, including text messages, from the church. I believe we are now uncovering a serious situation in your former church.

  448. @ Deb:
    Let’s just keep on posting and then unsuspecting people will have lots of information with which to make an informed decision re. attending the church.

    For those who are currently attending, whatever you do, Do.Not.Sign. the. Membership.Covenant! If you have, you can request that your contract (covenant) with the church be rescinded. They must do it if you so request.

    You can still attend the church (if you want to….) but you will not be considered to be a legal member of the church.

  449. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Especially where there are multiple former members who did the same thing, and have saved all the written documentation.

    Hallelujah! Also, make sure that you keep any text messages or voice mail messages on your phone. Also, all calls from the church, regardless if a message was left should be noted.

  450. dee wrote:

    Marie Notcheva wrote:
    Especially where there are multiple former members who did the same thing, and have saved all the written documentation.
    Hallelujah! Also, make sure that you keep any text messages or voice mail messages on your phone. Also, all calls from the church, regardless if a message was left should be noted.

    There are a variety of ways to save your cell phone and text messages to an email account.
    http://www.howtogeek.com/112852/how-to-backup-your-text-messages-to-your-gmail-account/

    http://time.com/3666242/save-voicemails/

    Perhaps others here can post the simple instructions if they use that feature.

  451. Deb wrote:

    Has anyone Googled ‘Heritage Bible Chapel’ lately to see what comes up on page 1?

    When I did it, TWW came up at number 3.
    Priceless.

  452. Pingback: A Letter from My Father – marie_notcheva.com

  453. https://marienotcheva.wordpress.com/2016/12/19/a-letter-from-my-father/

    “I think part of the problem is that I have zero sympathy for the whole attitude of “well, this is just how we deal with our women – get used to it”. Sorry, but this is America. Men and women are on an equal footing here, which is the only sane way for a society to act and function, in my jingoistic and extremely biased opinion. You want to act like a jackass? Fine – go back to Bulgaria.”

    That excerpt was from my brother.

  454. Deb wrote:

    Has anyone Googled ‘Heritage Bible Chapel’ lately to see what comes up on page 1?

    Not the search engine optimization HBC was hoping for.

  455. Velour wrote:

    Max wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    other changes being implemented by our newly hired pastor
    Hmmmm … start looking for other red flags … it can happen even to a Wartburger.

    Did anyone ask the new pastor, before he was hired, about this thoughts about John Calvin?

    To paraphrase Dishwalla:

    “Tell me all your thoughts on John
    ‘Cause we’d really like to see him
    And ask if he thinks we’re elect”

  456. Mara wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    Has anyone Googled ‘Heritage Bible Chapel’ lately to see what comes up on page 1?
    When I did it, TWW came up at number 3.
    Priceless.

    Yeah!

  457. siteseer wrote:

    “Marie, we love you in Christ and our hearts ache for the consequences of your choices in your own life and in your family. We are praying that God would lift the blinding effects of your sin and help you to recognize your sin and repent of it so that you might be restored.”
    I’d like to translate this from christianese to normal English:
    “Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah”
    These guys are not living in reality.

    The most accurate translation ever! 😀

  458. dee wrote:

    You can still attend the church (if you want to….) but you will not be considered to be a legal member of the church.

    For all we know, the “membership covenant” may actually exclude signees from legal membership, opting rather for a “spiritual membership” which allows no oversight into the pastors’ actions.

    Personally, I’d tell anyone who signed a membership covenant to drop a note in the mail tomorrow morning rescinding the covenant. Don’t give a reason. Just rescind.

  459. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    “I think part of the problem is that I have zero sympathy for the whole attitude of “well, this is just how we deal with our women – get used to it”. Sorry, but this is America. Men and women are on an equal footing here, which is the only sane way for a society to act and function, in my jingoistic and extremely biased opinion. You want to act like a jackass? Fine – go back to Bulgaria.”
    That excerpt was from my brother.

    I suggest they go to the Middle East – Syria maybe? There is an Islam sect there that believes women do not have souls!
    The plus would be (tee hee) “Timmy and Co.” would certainly stand out in a crowd.

  460. Just in case the term “Servant Leader” hasn’t been fully discredited yet, the lead pastor at HBC, Tim Cochrell, has a 300 page paper at sbts.edu about “Servant Leadership”. When the term “servant leader” gets bandied about, it is about being a leader and the servant part becomes inconsequential. If I may beat the drum further, we’re called to be servants, not leaders, or servant leaders.

  461. Bill M wrote:

    Just in case the term “Servant Leader” hasn’t been fully discredited yet, the lead pastor at HBC, Tim Cochrell, has a 300 page paper at sbts.edu about “Servant Leadership”. When the term “servant leader” gets bandied about, it is about being a leader and the servant part becomes inconsequential. If I may beat the drum further, we’re called to be servants, not leaders, or servant leaders.

    Exactly.

  462. The thing that’s just killing the leaders so-called here is not the divorce. Sadly, people get divorced all the time within Christian churches; self-proclaimed leaders get divorced as well, trading their middle-aged wives in on newer models, often twenty or thirty-something church celeb groupies. And after sometimes losing a church leadership position (and sometimes not) but typically getting a nice new position at another church (so called) after a “season of repentance” that lasts maybe months, they’re back at the lecture circuit, the book tour.

    No, divorce isn’t the deal here. The thing is someone is doing something that they can’t control and that is just killing them. The spirit of control is not a Christian spirit. It does not come from Christ. It comes from hell.

  463. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Oh, but I’m the one with the ‘sinful reactions’, claim the leaders (I refuse to call them pastors) at HBC. And thus they shall spin it to their congregation, in hopes of humiliating me.
    Three words.
    BRING. IT. ON.
    At least half their membership knows the real story, and supports me 100%. They will hang themselves on their own words and lose even more members if they try that tactic.
    A sure sign they have desperately prideful and hardened hearts.

    It does seem to be the script these people follow, they overplay their hand–as do most abusive personalities–and in time, end up shuttering the church and walking away forever or are left with nothing but a handful of pathetic masochists left in the pews. Saw it happen at one neocal (church shuttered), saw it happen at a charismatic church (nothing left but two or three dozen, all very defeated, most of them extended family, out of what had once been a bustling congregation of 200 with a private school and all) and once attended a mega with 8,000 members that hired a pastor who was probably personality disordered and was certainly abusive and within four or five years the church was just gone like that.

    By the way, I wouldn’t even call them “leaders”. Leaders are to be the least and the last always and without exception, they are specifically told in the Bible to lead, if at all, by godly example, never, ever by compulsion. So since they don’t care jack about perhaps the most important things the Bible says about Christian leadership, they are not leaders.

  464. dee wrote:

    @ Deb:
    Let’s just keep on posting and then unsuspecting people will have lots of information with which to make an informed decision re. attending the church.

    For those who are currently attending, whatever you do, Do.Not.Sign. the. Membership.Covenant! If you have, you can request that your contract (covenant) with the church be rescinded. They must do it if you so request.

    You can still attend the church (if you want to….) but you will not be considered to be a legal member of the church.

    Who was the first to originate the ‘membership contract’ idea and apply it to the Church? Who originated this nightmare???

  465. Law Prof wrote:

    The thing is someone is doing something that they can’t control and that is just killing them. The spirit of control is not a Christian spirit. It does not come from Christ. It comes from hell.

    Oh, yes. Tell it.

  466. Christiane wrote:

    Who was the first to originate the ‘membership contract’ idea and apply it to the Church? Who originated this nightmare???

    Yes, that is the first question, and to play with words the second question is like unto it, how did it get started that people would agree to such a thing in the first place anyhow?

    I do see that our society is, how shall I say it, in transition? going to perdition in some areas? unstable at best in some aspects. I do see that people would do almost anything to escape chaos. But I do not know if that is the whole explanation. Is this about a frightened and susceptible populace being preyed upon by opportunistic predators, or is there more to it than that? Why do people remain in these abusive churches even in the face of so much pain? What do they get out of it that makes it feasible to stay?

    I just don’t get it, any of it. When the church/school situation that we are dealing with blew up I saw irate parents and grandparents stand up in the open meeting and accuse the pastor to his face. And I saw the church inform the hierarchy who then sent in an investigative team. Where is that is these abusive churches? And if not, why not?

    My heart hurts for what is happening to Christianity in the US. God help us.

  467. @ Jack:
    When my family became members of a church plant in September 2003 I believe we signed some kind of membership covenant. At the time we saw no problem with it.

    We left that church and recently joined a Southern Baptist church by just ‘walking the aisle’. My husband and I filled out the little blue information card, and that was it.

  468. Bill M wrote:

    Just in case the term “Servant Leader” hasn’t been fully discredited yet, the lead pastor at HBC, Tim Cochrell, has a 300 page paper at sbts.edu about “Servant Leadership”.

    WAR IS PEACE
    FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

  469. Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    Did anyone ask the new pastor, before he was hired, about this thoughts about John Calvin?

    I’ve known pastor search committees which asked those questions, only to be deceived with elusive answers. New Calvinists are really good at stealth and deception – they have used their “talents” well to takeover non-Calvinist churches in the SBC and elsewhere … and justify it for the sake of the new reformation.

    Again, a few generations ago it would have been Marx & Lenin instead of Calvin.

  470. dee wrote:

    In my discussion with the pastor, I realized that there is link in terms of theological agreement with 9 Marks. In the next week or so, I am going to do a *TWW tutorial* on how to spot a stealth church. I discovered it during this situation when doing research on figuring out how they got to be so ridiculous.

    In our (the Raleigh) area, I can think of at least two. One is Christ Baptist, on Newton, and the other is Richland Creek (in Wake Forest). Richland Creek has long been advocating church discipline, submission to authority (i.e., pastors), and hyper-complementarianism. The only major difference at Richland Creek is that they are not especially Neo-Calvinistic, leaning more towards soft Arminianism.

    On the plus side, one of the buzzwords around the place is “I love my church” – it is even printed on the walls towards the back of the original building. That, and the head pastor has said, and actually believes, that Richland Creek is the only church that ‘gets it right’.

  471. @ Burwell:

    Of no interest to anybody but me, but let me say. When we first moved to NC RDU was not what it is now, and Raleigh and that whole area were different. We would come over here on a little Piedmont plane which would discharge passengers somewhere out from the terminal and we would walk the distance into a little terminal. We though the whole thing was quaint. We would get off the plane and feel the difference in the humidity and the different air pressure and think we had moved to some exotic area almost tropical and that was oh such an adventure. Can you even imagine that? It was a different world.

    I miss all that. Gone, not with the wind but with the crowds. And then there was the Intimate book store in Chapel Hill. I guess that ‘heaven’ probably has its advantages, but there is a lot to be missed also.

  472. Grrr. It angers me when motives are written off as “emotional intensity”. Because “I don’t want to subject myself to abuse any more” is unreasonable and overly emotional?

    Nice tip of the hand when they say she shouldn’t identify with an article about physical abuse. In their minds, it isn’t the same thing.

    The threat of a public meeting to talk about her publicly is just gross. 🙁

  473. Law Prof wrote:

    The spirit of control is not a Christian spirit. It does not come from Christ. It comes from hell.

    It doesn’t come from Christ? It comes from hell?
    Does that make it the spirit of Anti-Christ?

    I know. Inflammatory words. They don’t always help the argument.

    But I have more.

    In my opinion, the spirit of control is also connected to Phariseeism and Pharaohism (I am the God of Egypt!). The Pharaoh wouldn’t let God’s people go. The Pharisees wouldn’t enter God’s Kingdom and prevented others from entering as well.
    I also believe it is connected to Baal worship. Baal translated means lord. It’s all about hierarchy, control, and who’s the boss.

  474. Law Prof wrote:

    No, divorce isn’t the deal here. The thing is someone is doing something that they can’t control and that is just killing them. The spirit of control is not a Christian spirit. It does not come from Christ. It comes from hell.

    Indeed! I don’t think folks realize the “spiritual” involvement in these situations. We focus on men who are exercising certain religious belief and practice, without realizing that there is a spirit driving the flesh to act with such behavior … and it ain’t holy! Jesus even had to address this with some of his followers:

    “They said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” But He turned and rebuked them and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” (Luke 9:54-56 NASB)

    As you note, a spirit which manifests itself in ministries to control, manipulate and intimidate the children of God (to destroy their life in Christ) is from hell … and we so often just write it off as traditions and teachings of men. These places are not healthy to be in … they will suck the spiritual life out of you if you linger there too long.

  475. Jeff S wrote:

    Because “I don’t want to subject myself to abuse any more” is unreasonable and overly emotional?

    No. That is entirely rational.

    Emotional is staying.

  476. Marie Notcheva wrote:

    Good grief…..can you imagine if I’d actually DONE something wrong? Like have an affair or something? I can’t believe this level of obsession. Trust me; I’m a pretty boring person. I can’t afford most forms of sin…LOL!

    Marie – I like you. You’re awesome.

    “Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” – Galatians 5:1

    Thank you for being a light to others who are trapped in this vicious cycle. I’m praying that you find healing and joy.

  477. Lea wrote:

    Jeff S wrote:
    Because “I don’t want to subject myself to abuse any more” is unreasonable and overly emotional?
    No. That is entirely rational.
    Emotional is staying.

    What is interesting about these situations is that pastors who want women or men to stay and submit to husband and/or leadership use the emotional state of the absused and “emotions” to make their arguments. They then turn around and call the abused “emotional” and claim the abused cannot possibly make a Godly, rational decision without submitting to elders/pastors. Absurd!

  478. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    the beginning of the end for SBC seminaries. When you can’t trust your supply chain, you go elsewhere.

    That’s an excellent way to put it … “supply chain.” There is no doubt that SBC’s seminary supply chain for young pastors has become untrustworthy in recent years … untrustworthy to produce young pastors which will preach and teach the non-Calvinist theology that SBC has held to for the past 150 years.

    Several SBC places of “higher” learning have fallen to New Calvinist leadership and reformed indoctrination, not reflecting the theological belief and practice of SBC’s majority members and churches. Besides seminary indoctrination, the supply chain has also been tremendously influenced by non-SBC reformed organizations (Acts 29, SGM, 9Marks, T4G, TGC, and others). New Calvinists in-training also look to prominent influencers outside of SBC for teachings they can carry to their pulpits (John Piper, Tim Keller, Ligon Duncan, John MacArthur, etc.).

    Yep, a dependable supply chain has been disrupted. New Calvinism is all about preparing a next generation of pastors. They are targeting young folks which will bring in a future church free of the “whosoever will may come” message and ministry which Southern Baptists have carried to a lost world since the Civil War!

    Isaac Newton observed, “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.” There are 45,000+ SBC churches – most have not yet been tainted by the proliferation of New Calvinism, but most have not reacted. It is not too late for these churches to unite and demand that the supply chain for young pastors be purged of New Calvinist influence … or look for another supply chain.

  479. @ Burwell:
    This is very interesting. One day we must get together and compare church stories in the area. Maybe we could develop a conclusive list. I concur wth your thoughts on those two. Did you know that Anne Graham Lotz’s book Wounded by God’s People deals with her time at Christ Baptist?

  480. @ Bridget:

    I definitely felt very silenced and that my experiences were discounted because of “emotions”. Which is terrible. God gave us emotions for a reason and we ignore them at our own peril.

  481. Burwell wrote:

    Richland Creek has long been advocating church discipline, submission to authority (i.e., pastors), and hyper-complementarianism. The only major difference at Richland Creek is that they are not especially Neo-Calvinistic, leaning more towards soft Arminianism.
    On the plus side, one of the buzzwords around the place is “I love my church” – it is even printed on the walls towards the back of the original building. That, and the head pastor has said, and actually believes, that Richland Creek is the only church that ‘gets it right’.

    Richland Creek was the church I attended when I went to SEBTS. And I went to many of the church meetings for the pastoral search which resulted in David Sims’ appointment. He was clearly deceptive in sharing his theology, and nothing that RCCC is now was given as an answer when asked of him. RCCC was not Calvinist before he came on board. No one on the staff that was there when I went is still there.

    Their website is frightening. “Commit” this and “commit” that. Prove your commitment by posting on the Facebook page every week. Prove your commitment by giving us money.

    Richland Creek Community Church is a model of exactly what happens with these guys. They are liars and frauds, and they are corrupting the children of God.

  482. Bridget wrote:

    What is interesting about these situations is that pastors who want women or men to stay and submit to husband and/or leadership use the emotional state of the absused and “emotions” to make their arguments. They then turn around and call the abused “emotional” and claim the abused cannot possibly make a Godly, rational decision without submitting to elders/pastors.

    This is a really important observation, IMHO. It’s a form of two-stage attack that is extremely nasty and destructive.

    Analogous to kicking a person who’s either on the floor or else otherwise incapacitated by weight of numbers – the follow-up causes much worse injury than the first ambush. Likewise, the most dangerous structure-destroying ordnance is designed first to penetrate the building or ship, and then to detonate, so that the force can be directed against structural components (and people) that are not blast-hardened. In both cases, it’s the second stage that’s the most destructive.

    Likewise, attacking or slandering a person from within a church setting (where they were expecting friendship) can certainly floor them, or at least throw them off balance. That will invariably be hurtful, but may not in itself be that damaging yet. (I reject the idea that every believer is a fragile, weak and vulnerable butterfly.) But if, having slandered them, you can successfully land the follow-up, painting them as emotional and hurt, you inflict real damage on them. That’s because you’ve destroyed their name and their credibility: nobody will believe or respect them, but will at best look on them with “loving”, condescending, pity. You can’t respect someone from that position. Now, everyone else will set about destroying the victim for you, all the while convinced they’re being “loving”.

  483. Max wrote:

    “They said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” But He turned and rebuked them and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” (Luke 9:54-56 NASB)

    An interesting sidebar to my upstream comment which contained this passage, is that the ESV chops most of it:

    “They said, “Lord, do you want us to tell fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” But he turned and rebuked them. And they went on to another village.”

    The ESV (and some other versions) opted for a manuscript which avoided the “spiritual” significance of Jesus’ reply, as well as the fact that He came to save. They took the life out of the passage.

  484. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Likewise, the most dangerous structure-destroying ordnance is designed first to penetrate the building or ship, and then to detonate

    Or bullets that fragment inside…

  485. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Likewise, attacking or slandering a person from within a church setting (where they were expecting friendship) can certainly floor them, or at least throw them off balance. That will invariably be hurtful, but may not in itself be that damaging yet. (I reject the idea that every believer is a fragile, weak and vulnerable butterfly.) But if, having slandered them, you can successfully land the follow-up, painting them as emotional and hurt, you inflict real damage on them. That’s because you’ve destroyed their name and their credibility: nobody will believe or respect them, but will at best look on them with “loving”, condescending, pity. You can’t respect someone from that position. Now, everyone else will set about destroying the victim for you, all the while convinced they’re being “loving”.

    This is what I see happening in almost every abuse case we have read about on TWW. It is horribly scary to me that men who are supposed to be “pastors” don’t see, or refuse to see, that they are doing this. More horrible yet are those who do it on purpose, and I believe they are out there.

  486. Christiane wrote:

    Who was the first to originate the ‘membership contract’ idea and apply it to the Church? Who originated this nightmare???

    Aren’t MC’s from the abusive, cultic Shepherding Movement from the 1970’s? Some of the Florida founders of Shepherding later repented for its un-Biblicalness and abusiveness and said it was wrong.

    Perhaps Brad Sargent/FuturistGuy blog, Todd Wilhelm, Gram3, and Lydia can weigh in on their knowledge of Membership Covenants’ history.

  487. Jeff S wrote:

    towards

    I’m sure you did feel silenced and were, in fact, silenced. If you could be labeled “emotional” when you tried to share your experiences, and “emotional” had been declared sinful by the spiritual authorities, then “BAM!” The authorities won’t listen to you. It is quite evil, as far as I’m concerned.

  488. Wow….just…WOW. Threats, some veiled, some not so veiled. Color me picky, but these guys only care about their authority, real or imagined but don’t bother with correct punctuation of the personal pronouns of Father (“father”) and Spirit (“spirit”) leading me to believe the really cherished this opportunity to come down on someone.

    This instance and example is the primary reason I don’t involve myself and my family in the tangled web of church membership…I don’t HAVE to be under someone’s “authority” when I have the Holy Spirit indwelling who can put a whoop’n on me better than any board of elders (little “e” intentional”)….I can say without hesitation or lack of courage that TODAY’S church, more often than not, is about power over the purse and power over the person….Christ died for the Church…UNIVERSAL and the LOCAL body is a microcosm of the larger Body…not someone’s inane idea of a personal kingdom.

  489. @ Deb:
    I’m going into my wayback machine here as I no longer own the book but it felt like the whole “Purpose Driven” program was a marketing ploy. I recall there being a “covenant” to sign to commit to go through the whole 40 day program.

    Not sure if those covenants were intended to control or not but certainly the goal was to ensure that you (and your wallet) stayed in the pew.

    In this church’s case, the covenant was signed after attending a membership class. It was pretty much a word for word rip from Purpose Driven.

    Interestingly enough the church no longer mentions membership on their website. There used to be a form to apply (like a job description you had to list your previous churches, your Christian credentials etc) I have a hunch the whole “covenant”/ application thing just turned people off.

    When I started attending, I too filled in the little blue card and for years after received a birthday card from the pastor, even after I ceased attending. My wife also filled in the little card and never received anything – maybe only one birthday card for the “head” of the household?

    In the case of HBC (and some of the other cases mentioned) the whole “commitment” thing has been taken to ridiculous (and dangerous) extremes. But it must have worked on some of the congregation before, otherwise they wouldn’t do it.

    My guess is these guys are going to be hit by an avalanche of their own making. I’m thinking of Wile E. Coyote when the pebble is removed from that boulder.

  490. Bridget wrote:

    If you could be labeled “emotional” when you tried to share your experiences, and “emotional” had been declared sinful by the spiritual authorities, then “BAM!” The authorities won’t listen to you. It is quite evil, as far as I’m concerned.

    Indeed! And when you think about trauma causing grief, and anger being part of the grieving process then you realize how completely messed up it all is to hold grieving people responsible for anger! (or sadness, or anything else).

    Especially when they are being compared to abuse, unrepentant, mean persons who have had no trauma. So unfair!

  491. @ Bridget:

    Bridget,
    It’s things like this that just further confirm the idea that pastorates are CAREERS rather than a calling…After Sem, many of these guys view their local charge as a personal corporation rather than a gathering of Believers…Corporations have building programs, education programs, meetings over the color of the carpet, choir robes and of course, the almighty compensation. IMHO, the leadership should have regular, 40 hr week jobs and once a week meeting of the flock for instruction and prayer….that’s it, no giving unless it is to help support another in need…leadership isn’t depending on the church to support them, no mortgage to pay, no parking lot to pave…we need to rethink how things are done. Parting thought, if Jesus had no place to lay his head and the churches of Paul’s time met in homes, why do we need more?

  492. Jack wrote:

    Not sure if those covenants were intended to control or not but certainly the goal was to ensure that you (and your wallet) stayed in the pew.

    I can’t remember if I finished that book, but it felt more like the bschool/pop psy ‘writing down your goals makes you more likely to accomplish them’ line of thought than a control mechanism? I think the difference is what is meant to be self-motivating and what has teeth in the form of a bunch of elders trying to tell you what to do.

    Jack wrote:

    for years after received a birthday card from the pastor, even after I ceased attending. My wife also filled in the little card and never received anything

    How strange!

  493. @ Mike Smith:
    Lastly, to keep on topic, in the scenario I’ve just described, ONLY true/real Believers would attend and no “discipline” would be necessary unless it’s for real reasons (“Corinthian” reasons) and real sin, not the idea that someone wants to leave and the leadership just doesn’t want to get jiggy with it (shades of R.C. Sproul Jr.anyone?).

  494. Mike Smith wrote:

    I don’t HAVE to be under someone’s “authority” when I have the Holy Spirit indwelling who can put a whoop’n on me better than any board of elders (little “e” intentional”)….I can say without hesitation or lack of courage that TODAY’S church, more often than not, is about power over the purse and power over the person….Christ died for the Church…UNIVERSAL and the LOCAL body is a microcosm of the larger Body…not someone’s inane idea of a personal kingdom.

    Preach it, brother Mike!

  495. Mike Smith wrote:

    It’s things like this that just further confirm the idea that pastorates are CAREERS rather than a calling

    I refer to them as “franchises”. Many of these guys go to seminary, in my opinion, to train to become franchisees of The Brand (TM).

    At my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley the authoritarian, abusive senior pastor used the right code words like he was “called by God” (someone who lies about Christians, abuses them, screams at them and excommunicates them for trumped up reasons was NOT “called by God”) to shut down opposition and critical thinking in the same way they use “Biblical” to shut down thinking/opposition. Any opposition is — gasp — “un-Biblical”.

  496. Mike Smith wrote:

    I don’t HAVE to be under someone’s “authority” when I have the Holy Spirit indwelling

    This cannot be emphasized enough! If a church leader convinces you that you ‘must’ submit to their authority on all matters in and out of the church, they are asking you to step away from the ultimate authority over the life of a Christian. If they can strip you of your individual priesthood in Christ and your free access to God directly through the Holy Spirit, they have you where they want you.

  497. Max wrote:

    the spiritual life

    I think you touche on something important here:
    we are given ‘choice’ between ‘good’ and ‘evil’ and we are also given within our own hearts a guide from God:
    “I will put My Laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds.”
    We have to meet with God in the private sanctuary of our consciences, and it is there that we are directed to the ‘good way’. No ‘leader’ can usurp the role of a person’s private conscience. And if these ‘leaders’ claim that they can, the sacred Scriptures stand in witness against them.

  498. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Likewise, the most dangerous structure-destroying ordnance is designed first to penetrate the building or ship, and then to detonate, so that the force can be directed against structural components (and people) that are not blast-hardened.

    All the way back to battleship AP shells. AP cap to smash through the belt or deck armor and a delay fuse on the bursting charge, timed to detonate about halfway through the target ship. Remember HMS Indefatigable, HMS Queen Mary, HMS Invincible, HMS Hood…

  499. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    But if, having slandered them, you can successfully land the follow-up, painting them as emotional and hurt, you inflict real damage on them. That’s because you’ve destroyed their name and their credibility: nobody will believe or respect them, but will at best look on them with “loving”, condescending, pity. You can’t respect someone from that position. Now, everyone else will set about destroying the victim for you, all the while convinced they’re being “loving”.

    And getting doublepluswarmfeelies from being so Loving(TM) and Concerned(TM).
    (“There there” + Pat Pat Pat on the head…)

  500. ishy wrote:

    Their website is frightening. “Commit” this and “commit” that. Prove your commitment by posting on the Facebook page every week. Prove your commitment by giving us money.

    Prove your commitment by smelling out Witches and all others who are not Committed.
    Prove your commitment by informing on your parents for a Hero Medal and a pat-pat-pat on the head.

  501. Mike Smith wrote:

    It’s things like this that just further confirm the idea that pastorates are CAREERS rather than a calling

    It’s increasingly clear that thousands of young wannabe pastors are being drawn to the excitement of the New Calvinist movement, rather than being called into ministry by God (you know them by their fruit). Choosing a career in ministry vs. God calling you into it are distinctly different. Most who fail in ministry and/or behave miserably while in it were never called to it in the first place. Folks who sit under a “called” pastor will be nourished with Truth and will be equipped to do the work of the ministry themselves. Those who sit under a “career” pastor often have the spiritual life choked out of them.

  502. Mike Smith wrote:

    Parting thought, if Jesus had no place to lay his head and the churches of Paul’s time met in homes, why do we need more?

    There’s a problem with that. At the time you refer to, the church sometimes met in the homes of women who had no “head”. These “male-headship” “servant-LEADERS” would never tolerate that.

  503. Burwell wrote:

    On the plus side, one of the buzzwords around the place is “I love my church” – it is even printed on the walls towards the back of the original building.

    HE LOVED BIG BROTHER.
    — the last four words of 1984 by G.Orwell

  504. Bridget wrote:

    This is what I see happening in almost every abuse case we have read about on TWW. It is horribly scary to me that men who are supposed to be “pastors” don’t see, or refuse to see, that they are doing this. More horrible yet are those who do it on purpose, and I believe they are out there.

    The problem, or one like it, is widespread in the Church here in Blighty.

    It’s a weird thing, you know. There’s a very prominent meme about how I, you, he, she and everybody is “God’s child”. God loves you, you see, because you’re his precious little child. This attracts a particular kind of toxic personality: the person who fantasises, consciously or sub-consciously, that they are a parent to all the needy babies around him/her. In transactional analysis, this personality is the classic “rescuer”, noting that there is always a fine line between “rescuer” and “persecutor”.

    The “rescuer” enthusiastically infantilises those around them because (s)he finds his/her own need for significance met by belittling others and pretending that (s)he alone can save them from the invisible monsters of hurt and pain that they can’t cope with. Hence, even as they attack others, the rescuer feels good about themselves for doing it. The more you try to tell such a person that you’re not crippled and hurting, the more aggressively they will try to breastfeed you; I speak from both first- and second-hand experience here.

    I’ve

  505. Max wrote:

    Most who fail in ministry and/or behave miserably while in it were never called to it in the first place. Folks who sit under a “called” pastor will be nourished with Truth and will be equipped to do the work of the ministry themselves. Those who sit under a “career” pastor often have the spiritual life choked out of them.

    A “preacher/pastor” who is truly called serves as a teacher/mentor – not as a dictator.

  506. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The “rescuer” enthusiastically infantilises those around them because (s)he finds his/her own need for significance met by belittling others and pretending that (s)he alone can save them from the invisible monsters of hurt and pain that they can’t cope with.

    In the words of Twilight Snapple:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxo1qlk6gEI

  507. Max wrote:

    It’s increasingly clear that thousands of young wannabe pastors are being drawn to the excitement of the New Calvinist movement, rather than being called into ministry by God (you know them by their fruit).

    Yet again, a couple generations ago they would have been drawn in to the excitement of the Communist Party.

    THE Mass Movement that WILL Remake The World into Utter Perfection.

  508. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The more you try to tell such a person that you’re not crippled and hurting, the more aggressively they will try to breastfeed you; I speak from both first- and second-hand experience here.

    Isn’t that pathological?
    (And more than a little Kinky?)

  509. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    There’s a very prominent meme about how I, you, he, she and everybody is “God’s child”. God loves you, you see, because you’re his precious little child.

    Apparently calling someone a ‘daughter of the king’ is a christianeez thing too, at least at #Gateway.