first

This is very serious and its wrong in my opinion allegedly if he did this. I will admit I chuckled at “bromances” that really does say it all. Why cant people just follow through with commitments. You know I made a few promises to students, one was to help them actually graduate Hight School, it took me ten years to keep that one for two of my students. Some promises have taken me decades to fully keep.

His statement on his divorce reads so similarly to Tullian’s.

siteseer wrote:

Seek to enter by the narrow gate.

matter of time before this phrase from sacred Scripture will be used by some famous ‘leader’ to justify living in a wealthy gated community

The recent election in the US attracted some coverage here. At one point, some students at a religious organisation, of I forget exactly what nature, were asked by a BBC laddie about the now-President-elect’s history of scornful attitudes (and behaviour) towards women. One of the students talked about how they “believe in the power of forgiveness”.

So, what is the “power” of forgiveness? What does it do, for whom?

AWWBA, this from Luke 19:

[Jesus] entered Jericho and was passing through. And there was a man called by the name of Zaccheus; he was a chief tax collector and he was rich. Zaccheus was trying to see who Jesus was, and was unable because of the crowd, for he was small in stature. So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to see Him, for He was about to pass through that way. When Jesus came to the place, He looked up and said to him, “Zaccheus, hurry and come down, for today I must stay at your house.” And he hurried and came down and received Him gladly.

When they saw it, they all began to grumble, saying, “He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.”

So far, so familiar – we’ve seen all this before. Rich scumbag sucks up to popular preacher and they cosy up together. ker-CHING!!!.

Only, AWWBA, this story continues.

Zaccheus stopped and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, half of my possessions I will give to the poor, and if I have defrauded anyone of anything [which he almost CERTAINLY had], I will give back four times as much.” And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Salvation didn’t just come to that house, but to a lot of other houses who were financially under its influence. God’s forgiveness kicks butt. The counterfeit doesn’t.

I have been following the stories about Israel Houghton since they broke, but was not aware of the children he had out of wedlock. It’s all so very heartbreaking. I hate the idea of Christian celebrity; however, if you find yourself on such a pedestal, you should have great fear of God to be an example for others and not a fool. It’s especially sad for me since I love Israel Houghton’s music and always wanted to see him in concert, but no more!

Though, TBH, when discerning Wartburgers really want to read something that’s packed with scripture, they’ll probably stick with a bible.

ishy wrote:

The stuff he says publically is so odd and out of the realm of Christianity that he’s running a different religion up there.

I remember seeing a ‘coloring book’ page for the children of his ‘church’ ….. it was a picture of Furtick himself ….. the caption was ‘Elevation Church is built on the vision God gave Pastor Steven. We will protect our unity in supporting his vision.’

I guess either God has revealed Himself anew or this is just one more creepy cult, as if our country needed more crazy.

Nancy2 wrote:

Um, um, um. What would happen if a woman behaved the way these men do?

Obviously that wouldn’t be ok. But you know, when you ‘fail’ in your marriage (is that considered a man fail or a man win?) repeatedly over an extended period of time, that’s just dandy.

Btw, so sorry to hear about your family member. I hope he recovers.

Velour wrote:

ishy wrote:
I have a lot of friends that put Christian music on a pedestal, and it’s always made me uncomfortable.
I thank God that I’ve never liked Christian music stations or music my entire Christian life. I found it cloying and fake.

I do find some Christian music uplifting. But like a poster said above, I do get tired of hearing the same five songs in a row after a while. I want to say, ‘Yes, I get the point. Now will you PLEASE play something else!”

As always with WWW, the issue is the kids…. how can that guy go to all those nice places and not support his own kids??? If we does not think they are his, you can now have DNA testing.. so that is not an excuse!
Repentance and forgiveness involves volitional actions to follow…. this guys lack of supporting his own kids, while spending lavishly on European trips clearly disqualifies him from church leadership, PERIOD..

I’m not a fan of the Christian music industry at all. I don’t listen to Christian radio (though I do own some Christian music). The motto for the station here in Atlanta (last I heard) was “safe for the whole family”, which just makes me think the music is watered down. I don’t want music that is “safe”. Dealing with the spiritual is one of the most important aspects of our lives- that shouldn’t be “safe”.

And there is so much bad/questionable theology in the songs; it’s reasonable. It’s not like the artists are there because they are learned Bible teachers, but it does mean we need discernment. We can’t just let anything in.

Of course, the hypocrisy is real, since I’ve recorded my own fair share of Christian music (and I’m not a Bible scholar!), but I’ve never really felt comfortable in the scene.

For anyone interested, here is the album I recorded (with a friend of mine doing female vocals- she’s a much better singer than I am!) after my divorce, which really tells the story of how I was abandoned by the church and the process of renewing my faith. It was a healing project to do, and it’s always been my hope that others who have been hurt by the church/divorce might find it helpful.

http://noisetrade.com/steadyon/through-the-darkness

I’ve tried to verify the allegation that Houghton had to be sued for child support. I’m not finding reliable info.

Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:

As always with WWW, the issue is the kids…. how can that guy go to all those nice places and not support his own kids???

CORBAN.

Tina wrote:

I do find some Christian music uplifting.

But do you also find it positive?

Burwell wrote:

Burwell wrote:

Furtick is the logical result of Christianity’s reduction into slogans, jingles, and bumper-stickers.

Like, “God is good (all the time)” and the definition of justification – “Just As If I’d never sinned”

Don’t forget “It’s all Under the Blood.”

Jeff S wrote:

I’m not a fan of the Christian music industry at all. I don’t listen to Christian radio (though I do own some Christian music). The motto for the station here in Atlanta (last I heard) was “safe for the whole family”, which just makes me think the music is watered down. I don’t want music that is “safe”. Dealing with the spiritual is one of the most important aspects of our lives- that shouldn’t be “safe”.

I just moved from Atlanta to Athens, so that’s exactly the station I was talking about. And I literally have had friends who have criticized my faith because I refused to listen to it, even though I said I downloaded Christian music as an alternative.

NJ wrote:

Ishy, if you’ve never done so, google Elevation church and baptisms for the story about how they used people planted in the *audience* to jumpstart others coming forward to be baptized. My personal favorite is the infamous children’s coloring page showing Furtick preaching, and at the bottom it said We are united under the Visionary.

Yeah, I’ve seen quite a few things about Elevation and the fakery they employ, and that’s one of them. Plus, I’ve seen Furtick speak on multiple occasions, and the stuff he says is empty and devoid of any real Christian theology. He’s all about money and popularity, and his giant house and employment of other fake Christians is evident of that.

The advocates of biblical church discipline for the sake of a healthy church in Furtick’s denomination are surely in the case.

ishy wrote:

I used to have a roommate that would blast worship music at 7am every morning so loud that the neighbors complained, but she said she couldn’t “worship” without blaring it. Add that to the fact that there were usually 2 or 3 people in the house still sleeping, and asking her to turn it down earned a flat “No” and a slammed, locked door every time. I think music can be an idol it in its own right, that pretends to be a way of faith but is really an emotional crutch that has nothing to do with trusting God.

She couldn’t use head phones? What a horrible witness and a self-centered person.

I bought headphones with a 30′ cord just so I could do my early morning stretching exercises and not disturb anyone else.

Velour wrote:

She couldn’t use head phones? What a horrible witness and a self-centered person.
I bought headphones with a 30′ cord just so I could do my early morning stretching exercises and not disturb anyone else.

There’s a lot of things she could have done besides that, but she never did, despite multiple people, including non-Christian neighbors, asking her to. Nobody could get through to her.

ishy wrote:

I think music can be an idol it in its own right, that pretends to be a way of faith but is really an emotional crutch that has nothing to do with trusting God.

I think you are right about some people using it as a crutch. But if you think about it, we all need crutches sometime, when we fall and are weakened. I suppose music is many things for many people. What I know is that every day, in my life, there will be music, even if I am only remembering a far off melody from a time long, long ago.

” 7When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38)

David wrote:

Yes, and encouraging!

Ha! Glad someone got that 🙂

bonnie knox wrote:

I’ve tried to verify the allegation that Houghton had to be sued for child support. I’m not finding reliable info.

According to news sources, the case was non-suited last week, i.e., dropped by the state. That does not mean Houghton is off the hook. What I suspect happened is that Houghton paid the back child support and is now signed up for wage garnishment.

You’ll notice we’ve not heard a word about child support for the children from his marriage. That’s because, in Texas, in order to get a divorce with dependent children, you have to show tbe kids are being supported. And Texas has had, since the 1980s, a state constitutional amendment allowing for paycheck garnishment to pay child support. Basically, a court order goes to the employer of the owing parent and the money is taken out of the parent’s check. Back in the day, the county used to collect and issue the child support payments, but I haven’t lived in Texas for two decades, so have no idea how it’s done today. The whole purpose of the state getting involved was to hold deadbeat parents accountable and to get children off welfare.

Velour wrote:

Christiane wrote:

I love Christian music also, and there are times when it rises to a form of prayer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXrCD5KNLxQ

This is a nice piece, Christiane.

It has substance compared to the drivel on ‘Christian’ radio, which I have never liked.

The ‘Sanctus’ is taken from the Book of Isaiah, this:
” 3And one called out to another and said, “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts, The whole earth is full of His glory.” 4 And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out”

The ‘Sanctus’ also shows up in the beautiful Eastern Orthodox ‘Trisagion’, the ‘Thrice Holy’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHi-1taeqeo

@ ishy:
The hope is that the crutch will be temporary, until we are strengthened again. I do know what you mean, though. For some people, the crutch becomes something of an ‘excuse’ or something to hide behind

and sometimes, a ‘crutch’ can turn into something destructive: a dependency on pain meds, or on drugs, and the ‘help’ then becomes a millstone which pulls a person downward

And another thing … calling something a “revival” doesn’t make it so. Revivals are a genuine move of God. They cannot be scheduled in advance on a calendar. They cannot be organized by men. You can’t make revival happen; only God can. The creator of the universe must be peering down from Heaven and wondering what has happened to Christianity in America – in times past, it was filled with pure and holy pursuits; now it is so far from Him.

I feel badly for this guy’s kids. I hope the pressure and attention will cause Houghton to keep up his payments, and maybe even spend more time with them.

And I agree with the sentiments on “Christian” radio. I’ve often wondered if I am a Christian, since I find “Christian” radio and television completely useless.

GSD wrote:

I’ve often wondered if I am a Christian, since I find “Christian” radio and television completely useless.

maybe it’s not you who isn’t ‘Christian’ ….. I’ve seen some of the stuff on telly and I don’t recognize it as meaningful, no

Jeff S wrote:

I’ve definitely seen Christian music used as a replacement for genuine connection to the Christian community and real spiritual growth.

While the same may be true for other groups, I’ve noticed a common model for planting New Calvinist churches in my area:

(1) set up shop in a store front, old warehouse, school gym, etc. in an uppity neighborhood

(2) invest church planting funds in the best sound and light equipment that you can get your hands on; erect a stage to strut on

(3) the first, and most important, staff member MUST be a cool “praise & worship” guy … the band is more important than the preacher to draw a crowd

(4) set the cool worship guy loose to find an equally cool praise & worship team, with loud whiny guitars, drums, and hoochie-coochie singers in tight jeans (it matters not if any in the team have a “background”; they must be talented)

(5) open a coffee shop in the foyer

(6) get on stage, do church … it’s important to be macho and cool in dress and talk

(7) control the congregation by coercing them to sign a membership covenant

(8) corral the members into small group meetings so you can keep an eye on them

(9) shun and/or excommunicate dissenters

(10) ignore watchmen in the blogosphere which blow the trumpet to warn and correct

If you surround yourself with bigger scoundrels bigger than youishy wrote:

This is my biggest concern about Christians in general. I see very few people even trying to have discernment in their lives. They blindly follow celebrity leaders, books, and other people in their lives without really struggling with issues for themselves.

Christians? Says who? A Christian is someone who loves Jesus and worships Him, not men. A Christian is someone who loves the truth and hates fraudulence and phony garbage, 17,000 square foot houses for pastors so-called, coverups, victim abuse, self-glorification. A Christian is one who’s marked with love, not lust, who struggles against their sins and when they fall has at least a shred of repentance, who would want no part of being put on a stage and held up as a role model and given a fat salary when they’ve just destroyed the hearts of their children by trading the wife of their youth in on a shiny newer model with loads of plastic surgery, the type who lives to show her surgically-enhanced cleavage on Instagram.

I call bull, total and absolute bull. Don’t talk to me about your Christianity, Mr. Houghton. Bull. Go read James.

“For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts”

GSD wrote:

And I agree with the sentiments on “Christian” radio. I’ve often wondered if I am a Christian, since I find “Christian” radio and television completely useless.

Any attempt at creative arts in the Christianese Bubble becomes Sturgeon’s Law on Steroids cheap propaganda. This has been commented on many times in many blogs.

Most of my exposure to Christianese music was a few years each side of 1980. Larry Norman (when he was competing with mainstream groups, not other CCMers), Steve Taylor (before “I Blew Up the Clinic Real Good” ended his CCM career), and Don Francisco (who specialized in taking incidents from the Bible and turning them into powerful story ballads). The others (and Christianese radio/TV) — Meh at best.

Law Prof wrote:

Christians? Says who? A Christian is someone who loves Jesus and worships Him, not men. A Christian is someone who loves the truth and hates fraudulence and phony garbage, 17,000 square foot houses for pastors so-called, coverups, victim abuse, self-glorification.

BTW, we are talking about two different types of people here. People who follow and people who lead. Just because the people who lead do all the things you mentioned doesn’t mean the people that follow do the same things.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Any attempt at creative arts in the Christianese Bubble becomes Sturgeon’s Law on Steroids cheap propaganda. This has been commented on many times in many blogs.

There is a lot of good stuff out there, but it would never get played on a Christian radio station. I tend to like female hard rockers, along with rock folk. Women in mainstream Christian music have to be much like comps want women to be – sweet and soft and without much spiritual challenge.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Any attempt at creative arts in the Christianese Bubble becomes Sturgeon’s Law on Steroids cheap propaganda. This has been commented on many times in many blogs.

I was not familiar with Sturgeon’s Law. So I looked it up. Brilliant.

sturgeon’s law. “Ninety percent of everything is crap”. Derived from a quote by science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon, who once said, “Sure, 90% of science fiction is crud. That’s because 90% of everything is crud.”

I remember those early pioneers of Christian music. There was something edgy and counter-cultural about them. Didn’t Francisco do a sarcastic song about an Xtian theme park called Bibleland, which was oddly prophetic about Ham’s Ark Park? They weren’t really “safe for the whole family.”

There is a drive by the Evangelical Industrial Complex to make everything safe, to avoid offending anyone, and it kills art. All that’s left is :crud.” Maybe it’s why all the mass-market Xtian art, movies, music, books and study Bibles seem so… Plastic. “Christian” becomes synonymous with bland, because bland sells. And maybe it’s why someone who can sing “really good” and get backsides in the seats can be a deadbeat dad running around the world with questionable women. Accountability would cost money.

bonnie knox wrote:

I’ve tried to verify the allegation that Houghton had to be sued for child support. I’m not finding reliable info.

Legal paperwork starting this process was provably filed in Harris County seeking to establish paternity which is generally the first step taken prior to determining state mandated child support. The Christian Post covered this story http://www.christianpost.com/news/israel-houghtons-respond-child-support-lawsuit-rumors-170993/

In Texas, the custodial parent typically files this paperwork to lay the groundwork to establish formal child support payments that can then be enforced by the state. If an acceptable private agreement for child support is reached prior to the court date, the action can be vacated. Often the initial papers are filed to get the supporting parent to come to the table faster and with a better offer. This is especially true when public figures are involved.

Five days ago, the Latina Times claimed to have an exclusive with Israel’s long term mistress, De Vawn Moreno, and Israel’s lawyers. The mistress stated “‘the case was halted because the facts weren’t straight from the start’ though she declined to elaborate.”

What is known is that if the case had proceeded “The state wanted Houghton (to) come up with his tax returns, checking and savings accounts statements, 401K info, proof of health insurance coverage and income history so that the court could figure out how much he possibly owed.”

The salaries of the highest paid megapastors are one of the most highly guarded secrets in America. We know that Israel’s boss, Joel Osteen, makes millions a year. If Israel had to submit this information it would legally become a public record and that could have been very embarrassing for Lakewood Church. Miraculously, after filing the initial court action, when it became apparent that this sensitive data might come out, the mistress suddenly halted her legal action and says that everything is fine now.

The article further states that “Houghton’s lawyer exclusively told the site that the dad of six was already financially supporting his sons, and had never actually been served with the suit.” However, Houghton’s attorneys had previously stated that the reason Houghton had not been served was because he had been out of town on an extended praise and worship tour, not because the papers weren’t trying to be served.

Israel’s lawyers confirmed to the Latina Times that Israel has SIX children?
With his wife Meleasa, Israel has three children: Mariah, Israel II and Milan Lily. With his long-term mistress De Vawn Moreno he has two children: Kingston age 4, and Khristian age 2. So who is the SIXTH child, and who is that child’s baby mama? It’s not like celebrity lawyers to get such an important number wrong. Are they subtly preparing the public for the next baby mama story to drop?

I am very relieved that the children are being looked after financially. For their sake I wish that this action had not been publicly filed. Perhaps the threat of revealing Israel’s net worth is what it took for Moreno to receive what she felt was a fair settlement.

http://www.latintimes.com/israel-houghton-paternity-suit-texas-attorney-general-drops-child-support-case-over-406523

Elizabeth Lee wrote:

Alternatively, it might be that he’s treating them the way he wants to be treated if he ever gets caught in the same position. I’m not saying that he’s cheated on his wife or done anything illegal. I’m just wondering if he’s making a public display that sin is not that bad. So if HE sins, it’s not that bad.

Surround yourself with people who do worse things than you and you’ll always look better by comparison. But at the end of the day, I doubt Mr. Furtick has thought about it that deeply, doubt he’s capable of thinking things through deeply, just reacting and acting on impulse to build his empire and feed lusts. I think Mr. Furtick thinks only of what will pump attendance and if he thought he could get away with it, he’d hire Bill Cosby to do a little stand up routine on Sundays to boost attendance and giving.

Christiane wrote:

can it be that these folks have elevated music to ‘worship’

The church I was involved with that went NAR believed that music was the new way way people were coming to faith in Christ- they actually started teaching that people were becoming Christians just by hearing Christian music, without hearing or needing to understand the gospel message. They were supporting young musicians as missionaries, sincere kids but with little experience or theological understanding.

When Mary the mother of Jesus, sang the magnifcat, she wasn’t tithing. Neither was Elizabeth. There are so many instances in Psalms where David and others gave their bodies to God as worship. David danced before the Lord. He played his harp, he sang, he wrote Psalms. I don’t ever remember him tithing first or it being brought out in the Psalms about this. So many times when I play on my keyboard the old Hymns of the church, I am worshiping God. I am not tithing to any place or anything. I am simply singing and praying. When I listen to my favorite hymns on-line, I’m doing the same thing. Robert Morris is so wrong on this issue. To me, Morris is a modern day Pharisee. All about the money. All about “see me, see how much I give, I must be important to God”. Spare me from the likes.

Jan wrote:

This is the purpose of most of the worship music and worship time in the megachurches. The mind-numbing music is played to the point where people can be manipulated into thinking and believing most anything.

At Gateway, it seems like the music is the only excuse you would have for convincing people that they need to go to a physical building, because the stupid service is on tv.

ishy wrote:

I just moved from Atlanta to Athens, so that’s exactly the station I was talking about. And I literally have had friends who have criticized my faith because I refused to listen to it

And why should those who listen to pious (or not so pious) glop not feel superior? They are making a daily sacrifice by drowning the voices of reason and conscience in the sticky stuff. [sarcasm off]

It was, I think, CS Lewis who said that even holy shoddy is still shoddy.

GSD wrote:

I was not familiar with Sturgeon’s Law. So I looked it up. Brilliant.
sturgeon’s law. “Ninety percent of everything is crap”. Derived from a quote by science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon, who once said, “Sure, 90% of science fiction is crud. That’s because 90% of everything is crud.”

I understand the original used a stronger word than “crud”.

And someone I knew in junior college came up with the Rosenberg Corollary to Sturgeon’s Law:
“90% of everything is crud, BUT OH THAT 10%!”

@ LT:
Hey GwInsida! Two thumbs up for the whole of your comment. You are dead on. Satan has a false church going for close to 2,000 years now. I think that master devil is trying to see how far he can stretch the “Church” thing and still get someone to believe that Jesus is for such an ungodly charade. Lust for fame, fortune and the rich, partying lifestyle is not what Jesus died for. Christianity was never designed to be glitzy, glamorous, carnal, erotic, luxurious, self-absorbed and focused only on the now.
Only a pure narcissist would ignore his own children because he thinks there is nothing in that for him, while he throws money around on the most self-absorbed lifestyle jet-setting around the world. The lemmings supporting people like this are more than mere victims, they are true enablers participating in the sins of others. There must be repentance, which means we must have our consciences awakened so they function again as they should. We need a renewal movement of people who call all of this idolatry and sin, which is what it is. Oh, to truly value Jesus again for who He is and what He has done and to shatter our idolatrous 21st century icons! Let such a move of God’s Spirit come upon our nation.

Burwell wrote:

Yet Furtick has a misunderstanding of what grace is – it is not the sweeping of sin under a rug and pretending it never existed; rather, it is full embrace of God’s holiness and mankind’s sinfulness, and the contrition that is the natural response of the redeemed (which is joyful, to be sure).

That would apply equally to Tullian Tchividjian.

dee wrote:

MidwesternEasterner wrote:
not Jim West.
– – – – – – – – – – –
I am so sorry. I wrote this way too late last night. It is corrected.

I sure hope Jim West is not a sex offender. He was a secret service agent on Wild, Wild West. 🙂

Far as I’m aware, he was a good guy on that show, fighting villains.

Jeff S wrote:

There is a wide scale of quality, both in terms of lyrics/theology and artistic value,

How to Write a Worship Song (In 5 Minutes or Less)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhYuA0Cz8ls

Jeff S wrote:

But it isn’t perfect

No where is perfect. I think you pick the things that are most important to you at that time and go with it.

The benefit of a mega, like a big school, is that there are so many people you will hopefully be able to find some people or group or activities that fit you. Maybe some would describe this as too ‘social’ but I am not opposed to that.

I’m not saying I would go to Furtick’s church for that reason! But if you find an otherwise decent church, I would certainly not reject it for being large.

Max wrote:

and hoochie-coochie singers in tight jeans (it matters not if any in the team have a “background”; they must be talented)

There is definitely some kind of divide going on in some churches.

Previously on this blog, I’ve linked to worship team guidelines published by some churches, and they are very restrictive and sexist.

Such rules lists for attire for women are teen feet long, and severely mandate what women cannot wear, but the men get like two lines in total.

Not that I am advocating for women to dress as hoochie-mamas on a church stage, but the typical gender comp church reaction, which is to nit-pick and insanely regulate ladies over their bodies, fashions, and sexuality, ticks me off.

I have seen some truly awful fashion guidelines for women pumped out by these churches. One went so far as to tell women to wear shirts with sleeves down to their elbows, and so on.

Women are once, under that sort of thing, being held responsible for male sexual sin and male sexual desire, rather than men being taught to practice responsibility and self-control.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Did a little YouTube search — wasn’t Don Francisco, but Terry Talbot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo8jBqr3aLs

That’s it! Thanks HUG. I totally forgot the part where Pharoah got busted for smoking weed! Again, not something you would hear these days on the radio.

And from what LT reports, it sounds as if the attention has already encouraged Mr. H to keep up with his child payments. That’s a good thing. [A vasectomy might also be a good thing.]

LT wrote:

and that the true purpose of attending church is the singing and the waving the hands part

I don’t mean to offend any church musicians on this blog, but honestly, I don’t like music in church. It’s not for me.

I don’t like to listen to it, I don’t like to stand-up and sing along, either.

I used to sometimes time my entrance to one Baptist church to the ten after mark, because most Baptist churches normally schedule the first 10 minutes for singing.

When I tune into watch church services on TV, I will ignore the first ten minutes to avoid the music numbers, because most of them follow the formula of doing music during the first 5 – 10 minutes.

My preference (if I even go to church) is to listen to a sermon delivered in a calm fashion.

Lea wrote:

I was just reading an article at patheos about how we’re ‘doing sunday school wrong’ because sunday school is about teaching the word, and not ‘how to live it in your day to day life’ or something. Which annoys me because that is ALL pastors seem to ever talk about in so many churches, is the day to day application.

I really don’t like that kind of preaching, or rather a little is ok but before you know it you’ve got someone spending 1 hour talking about their kids and their golf game and telling goofy stories and quoting maybe one bible verse. Is that what they want for sunday school too?

I have mixed feelings about this. To a degree, I’m okay with pastors trying to make the Bible applicable to our daily lives.

But you are quite right it can turn very irrelevant and annoying when pastors veer off into telling -what is to them- amusing anecdotes about their kids and the latest cute thing their kid did, or whatever.

I usually don’t find their “humor” very funny but flat or stupid and wish they would just leave it out. Not that I’m against all humor in a sermon, if the preacher can inject some humor in a decent way.

Daisy wrote:

When the Noisy Neighbor is a Church
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/realestate/when-the-noisy-neighbor-is-a-church.html?_r=0

The church in the article is just terrible. I don’t see how churches could justify to themselves blaring music for periods of time and calling it a “witness”, which is what I’m sure they did.

I can hear church bells from my new house, but they play at noon every day and play the Cambridge Chimes (Big Ben song), which is 8 notes. Then on Sundays, several of the churches ring bells at 11 for the service, but also just lasts a few seconds. One church also rang the bells during a tornado warning, as I found out a couple weeks ago. But I can hardly fault them if they do that.

ishy wrote:

The church in the article is just terrible. I don’t see how churches could justify to themselves blaring music for periods of time and calling it a “witness”, which is what I’m sure they did.

That is just that one church. In the past several years, I’ve read about a few others who are guilty of blaring music or bells, too.

@ Lea:

I see a lot of rules for women’s dress in workplaces and churches to be unduly limiting for women.

Churches in particular seem very afraid of women’s bodies and sexuality. They apparently want women to dress in fuddy-duddy, baggy, dowdy ensembles.

Nancy2 wrote:

Um, um, um. What would happen if a woman behaved the way these men do?

Pile of rocks to a chorus of “PRAISE THE LOOOOORD!”.

“We are expecting God to move in a mighty way.”

What does this even mean? I sojourned in Evangelical circles for around 3 decades. Looking back I recall all sorts of lingo that was spoken without even questioning what it actually means. This is one of those phrases that goes unquestioned. If the person says “God is moving” or some such thing, no one is to question it. It is assumed that such a thing is true. But what does it even really mean? And where does the expression even come from? I recall in Genesis where the writer says “the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” But how this would have any correlation to God moving within a church service is beyond me. Anyone got any ideas?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

That’s not just a pastor thing. I’ve run into it several times in various fandoms — the guy who can’t help but tell & show everybody how amusing and witty he is.

ION:

Oh – wait.

Nancy2 wrote:

Um, um, um. What would happen if a woman behaved the way these men do?

Actually, there are quite a few women in Evangelicalism that behave badly. Ever hear of Paula White for starters?

Jan wrote:

The mind-numbing music is played to the point where people can be manipulated into thinking and believing most anything.

African tribes discovered this centuries ago. Such music has been known to induce a hypnotic spell on listeners, releasing a supernatural force which is not holy. Yep, there are some strange things going on in the American church. I’m not sure these folks know who they are worshiping.

Lea wrote:

Like, should you really be wearing cold shoulder tops to your job at the bank?

I work for an evil too big to fail bank. I do not wear “cold-shoulder” tops–because the building is FREEZING. But there are other women in the building who do. However, in order to get into the building, you have to go through three badged entrances. So it’s not public-facing. So people wear a lot of stuff that wouldn’t work at a branch.

@ bonnie knox:

I hope he has been supporting his children non stop, but that does not mean he should be leading worship. He was having an affair and children with the mistress. And he may have a sixth child. He is disqualified from leading anything.

Christiane wrote:

“How shall we sing the song of the Lord in a strange land?” How indeed.

Amen Christiane. As I grow older, I feel like a stranger in the American church. As a Christian, I know that I am a citizen of another world; just a pilgrim passing through this one … but, yet, I have to live in this land for a while longer. I try my best to fit, but the church has more counterfeit than genuine – it was not always so during my Christian journey. Sad days, indeed.

Tina wrote:

Velour wrote:
ishy wrote:
I have a lot of friends that put Christian music on a pedestal, and it’s always made me uncomfortable.
I thank God that I’ve never liked Christian music stations or music my entire Christian life. I found it cloying and fake.
I do find some Christian music uplifting. But like a poster said above, I do get tired of hearing the same five songs in a row after a while. I want to say, ‘Yes, I get the point. Now will you PLEASE play something else!”

I stopped listening to Christian stations long ago. Although I must admit that every so often I will allow myself to be entertained just for the heck of it, because I’m bored or curious while driving.

Burwell wrote:

Burwell wrote:
Furtick is the logical result of Christianity’s reduction into slogans, jingles, and bumper-stickers.
Like, “God is good (all the time)” and the definition of justification – “Just As If I’d never sinned”
As NT Wright said concerning the popular worship chorus line “I’ll never know how much it cost to see my sin upon that cross” (and by default all other oversimple reductions):
…the New Testament does tell us precisely what it cost (the blood of God’s own son), and since the jingle in question is as confused in theology as it is deficient in rhyme, we are not much farther ahead. – The Day the Revolution Began, 17

And then we have this little ditty that went viral a few years ago. “Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chXECFpGwu8

David was restored, Peter was restored, and Paul was restored….Why not Israel Houghton?

Israel has repented of his sin and is now living in the light of God’s love. Pastor Steven does not judge and does not focus on the past- he is like Jesus in that he tells people to “go and sin no more”.

The “questionable” issue is this Blog and the Pharisee’s that support it

Bill Rogers wrote:

David was restored, Peter was restored, and Paul was restored….Why not Israel Houghton?
Israel has repented of his sin and is now living in the light of God’s love. Pastor Steven does not judge and does not focus on the past- he is like Jesus in that he tells people to “go and sin no more”.
The “questionable” issue is this Blog and the Pharisee’s that support it

He has no business working at a church and in being in any kind of leadership.
He is a poor witness and a poor testimony. His life is in shambles and he has failed to uphold his responsibilities.

He responsibility was to his children, and his ex-wife, not to some ‘new honey’.
What a disgrace.

Where are the real men in Christendom?

@ Bill Rogers:
The church must have leaders who are above reproach; the precious Gospel of Christ is too important to trust it to those who aren’t. A Christian leader who has surrendered his call to pursue the flesh, wasted his reputation and tarnished that of the church he represented, and destroyed trust among his followers has lost the ability to lead by example. Should we forgive the truly repentant? Certainly! Should we restore them to fellowship? Absolutely! But not to leadership.

Darlene wrote:

Christiane wrote:
Christiane wrote:
The ‘Sanctus’ also shows up in the beautiful Eastern Orthodox ‘Trisagion’, the ‘Thrice Holy’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHi-1taeqeo
Beautiful! The first time I walked into an Orthodox church and heard the music, I was overwhelmed with a sense of another world, a heavenly realm that came to earth.

Yes. Beautiful.

Bill Rogers wrote:

Israel has repented of his sin and is now living in the light of God’s love.

How do you know this, Bill?

LT wrote:

The music, the lights and the fog machines put people in a dreamy receptive, dizzy, sort of buzzy delta state where everything feels good.

Like the mind-controlling Parasymp organs used by The Heirarchy (a corrupt religious dictatorship) in Fritz Leiber’s Gather, Darkness!

Max wrote:

African tribes discovered this centuries ago. Such music has been known to induce a hypnotic spell on listeners, releasing a supernatural force which is not holy.

Which sounds almost word-for-word what you heard from various “Rock & Roll = The Devil’s Music” preachers.

And the reference to AFRICAN tribes opens up a real can of worms and baggage from a dark past —
Before Rock there was Jazz, before Jazz there was Ragtime.
All three began with the stigma of “N*gg*r Music”; only when they crossed over to white audiences and white musicians entered the genre did they become respectable.

Jeff S wrote:

We go to a mega church (one of the largest in the nation) with a big band and all of that. I don’t question the motives of the musicians, or even the people who put them on stage. I believe they have an earnest desire to see God worshiped and respond to him (I know the roommate of one of the worship leaders). And to help others do so as well. I don’t believe they are trying to manipulate people into accepting an emotional message.

Being at a mega church has certainly been an internal wrestling match for me, but it’s been a good tension. I’m learning to find God, and the good in others, in places where I’m uncomfortable. And I know there are those here who would object to the church and our being at it, but through much prayer and discussion with my wife, we are convinced that, for now, this is where we need to be.

But it isn’t perfect

Hi Jeff,

I just wanted to clarify that what I write is about Gateway and what I know to be the truth there. What they do is by no means universally applicable to all other mega churches.

In Gateway’s case, I know that Robert IS manipulating people and I know that in part because they are one of Leadnet’s largest clients. They pay a load of money for Leadnet’s studies and consulting services and then implement the findings that tell them how to engage in this manipulation. It is cold, strategic and calculated. Last year that manipulation earned them a cool $150M at just 5 campuses. Plus, their ultimate motivation is far more apparent when you listen to Robert Morris’ actual sermons and look at his and the other top executives’ obscenely wealthy personal lifestyles (and nepotism) that it’s all about the money for them.

FTR I think that some of the nicest and most sincere people working at Gateway work on the worship team. I have no fond feelings for the top dogs who are paid outrageous salaries and squander millions on high end European, Asian and Australian vacations, loosely labeled as “mission trips” to make it more palatable. But the rank and file singers and musicians that I knew were good people who loved the Lord and loved music. I think many are being as misled as the members. But for the ones ordained as pastors, I do believe they will have more to answer for at some point in the future.

If people need a massive 10-15 piece band with 95 decibel music, laser lights and so much smoke that you can’t see your hand in front your face, to feel closer to God, I don’t think that is wrong. It is only the motivation at the very top – the people making the decisions and the data they are basing those decisions on – that are manipulative, and when done in the name of Christ, are wrong.

Last year those 10-15 piece bands at Gateway helped “usher” the giving units “into God’s high tech presence” where they in turn gave $7,700 per adult to Gateway. That, and the outrageous way Gateway executives personally enrich themselves off all of this, is what I take exception to.

I am sincerely glad and grateful that you can enjoy the music and still have enough objectivity to be on the watch just in case some of Robert Morris’ doctrine or greed leaks into your church. The truth is that experiencing a wide range of religious services can give you more appreciation for what, in the end, you feel your family needs and benefits most from. One size does not fit all. God has the almighty power to put us where we need to be. Having sensible people like you involved inside a large church helps. Enjoy!

Darlene wrote:

And then we have this little ditty that went viral a few years ago. “Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chXECFpGwu8

True story Darlene – about 2 years ago Gateway paid Jefferson Bethke to fly out from Hawaii to repeat his slam poetry and sell his latest book at the Young Adults Service. Astonishingly, enough of the young adults knew of Jefferson from back in his Mars Hill days and physically got up and walked out. The young adult service draws a different crowd and has a far different message than the weekend service. It was large enough exodus to be noticeable. Many others, however, did stay and waited in line to buy his book and take selfies with him. I fear if it were the regular weekend service all the people would have stayed and thrown money at him.

LT wrote:

Robert also taught this at his big Pastors’ Conference, so now there are 4,000 mini-Roberts running around telling their congregants to give more and just listen to the music so they don’t need any sermons or the Bible.

Man. Just when I thought they sunk to new lows by doing nothing but sitting in their big, cushy executive chairs all day, sipping on coffee and ignoring people’s phone calls (*), they are now just having a band play during services so they don’t even have to give a sermon.

*Why Most Pastors Aren’t Answering Your Phone Calls
http://www.christianitytoday.com/karl-vaters/2016/august/why-most-pastors-arent-answering-your-phone-calls.html?paging=off

Christiane wrote:

the man Israel is supposed to be a ‘revival leader’, but what is being ‘revived’???

The only “revival” I can think of for this guy might involve Viagra!

Nancy2 wrote:

Bill Rogers wrote:
David was restored, Peter was restored, and Paul was restored….Why not Israel Houghton?
David was not a church leader. How many mistresses and illegitimate children did Peter and Paul have?
Was Lucifer restored? Was Judas restored?
Considering the way IH has lived, while professing to be a Christian, I’ll cut him a little slack as soon as a big fish swallows him, swims around with IH in the fish’s belly for a few days, and then spews him out near a beach somewhere.

Preach it, Nancy2!

Max wrote:

Christiane wrote:

“How shall we sing the song of the Lord in a strange land?” How indeed.

Amen Christiane. As I grow older, I feel like a stranger in the American church. As a Christian, I know that I am a citizen of another world; just a pilgrim passing through this one … but, yet, I have to live in this land for a while longer. I try my best to fit, but the church has more counterfeit than genuine – it was not always so during my Christian journey. Sad days, indeed.

and yet, being here ‘for a while longer’, we follow a Lord Who came here among us and told us how to live …. it is my belief that even the smallest act of Christian kindness and compassion in this world makes a difference that resounds in all eternity. Love is the most powerful force in creation. We are here to care for one another and to bear one another’s burdens.

I think Dietrich Bonhoeffer expressed this well, when he wrote:
“”” We now know that we have been taken up and borne in the humanity of Jesus, and therefore that new nature we now enjoy means that we too must bear the sins and sorrows of others. The incarnate lord makes his followers the brothers and sisters of all humanity. The “philanthropy” of God (Titus 3:4) revealed in the Incarnation is the ground of Christian love towrd all on earth that bear the name of human. The form of Christ incarnate makes the Church into the body of Christ. All the sorrows of humanity falls upon that form, and only through that form can they be borne. The earthly form of Christ is the form that died on the cross. The image of God is the image of Christ crucified. It is to this image that the life of the disciples must be conformed: in other words, they must be conformed to his death (Phil. 3:10; Rom. 6:4). The Christian life is a life of crucifixion.”
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer)

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

I smell sock puppet.

LOL, great phrase, HEADLESS …. you bring joy here and a lot of good sense with it

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

A man of no celebrity or conspicuous wealth, who might fairly be described as a victim, spoke with extraordinary authority in the face of tragedy. If any of you wish to hear a truly great sermon, I urge you to listen to the brief excerpt from the interview at Wikipedia/Gordon_Wilson (peace campaigner). I defy anyone of decent character to hear it unmoved.

That is what it means to be living in God’s love.

Wow. I am particularly moved that this was ‘a man of no celebrity or conspicuous wealth’ ….. that it was he who was able to speak out of his pain with only love …. like the Lord this man no doubt follows Who from the Cross said ‘Father forgive them for they know not what they do’

one person at a time, one act of love at a time, one gift of compassion at a time ….. like ripples in a pond expanding ever outward

thanks, NICK … a good way for me to begin my day here in a country where we will be needing to understand more than we have done for a very long time, come January and ‘the changing’. God have mercy on us all.

Bill Rogers wrote:

David was restored, Peter was restored, and Paul was restored….Why not Israel Houghton?

Israel has repented of his sin and is now living in the light of God’s love. Pastor Steven does not judge and does not focus on the past- he is like Jesus in that he tells people to “go and sin no more”.

The “questionable” issue is this Blog and the Pharisee’s that support it

Is he fully supporting all his kids?

Bill Rogers wrote:

David was restored, Peter was restored, and Paul was restored….Why not Israel Houghton?
Israel has repented of his sin and is now living in the light of God’s love. Pastor Steven does not judge and does not focus on the past- he is like Jesus in that he tells people to “go and sin no more”.
The “questionable” issue is this Blog and the Pharisee’s that support it

Wonderful example satirizing what this crew say!

Right?

Shannon H. wrote:

I’ve heard of how singers/musicians become “Christian” artists because they don’t think they’d make it in secular music. Could this be the case?

That would certainly explain why they think they are entitled to groupies…

Lea wrote:

Wonderful example satirizing what this crew say!
Right?

Now you mention it, I believe we do have some repeat visitors (possibly regulars) here who leave comments parodying the Elevators. IIRC, one or both of Deebs has had some contact with them away from the site in which they have confirmed that they are, indeed, joking.

I believe Mr Rogers is one of them. Certainly we’ve seen him before; here is a rewarding example of his comedic style:
Bill Rogers on That House

They tend to follow the golden theatrical rule: Never come out of character onstage (or, in this case, online). I get why – it would kind of ruin the joke. But it means you won’t generally be able to converse with them.

@ Nick Bulbeck:

Yes. Mr. Rogers is a periodic regular 🙂

@ LT:

I appreciate you sharing all of that. I was a little springboarding off your own experience to share mine.

The thing is, I DON’T enjoy the music at my church, which is a shame, because I do love music. And I even enjoy contemporary music. I just feel disconnected (but my wife does not, so I recognize my experience is not universal).

But yeah, I do believe that, regardless of my own experience, that the desires and hearts of the leaders in the church are aimed toward responding to God, and that part sounds different from what you are describing.

It looks like the child support charges have been tossed

Bill Rogers wrote:

David was restored, Peter was restored, and Paul was restored….Why not Israel Houghton?…like Jesus in that he tells people to “go and sin no more”

Oh, my. David was forgiven, remained king, but the results of David’s sins wrecked havoc in his family and compromised his leadership and the sword did not depart from David. If that is ‘restored’ then sure, people who blatantly habitually sin can be ‘restored’ to a relationship with God, but repentance does not make something ‘as if it never happened’ or something like ‘a free pass from the consequences’ based on the example of David. Nor did forgive mean forget in the case of David.

Peter denied knowing Jesus under a situation where he feared for his life, not as a habitual life style/position. The early church dealt with the issue of what to do about people who denied Christ under persecution/torture/mortal threat and decided that yes, even they could be restored, but not by merely saying they were sorry. I am not seeing mortal threat in IH’s situation. Does God forgive? Certainly, on His own terms and in His own time and only as between Him and the person, because God only (not man) knows the heart. Should the church assume that a person has repented and been forgiven based on that person’s testimony. Well, yes but verify by looking at that person’s post-repentance life style before rushing forward to ‘restore’ someone to public ministry without seeing evidences of repentance but only hearing ‘sorry’ sung to the tune of whatever?

And Paul was ‘restored’? What and when? Paul was converted to believing in Jesus from not believing in Jesus, but Christianity has called this a damascus road conversion, not some restoration. And Paul did not cease to say the rest of his life that he was the worst of sinners, and that he continually disciplined himself, apparently because he knew what he was. This was not restoration. This was conversion. And there was the testimony of his post-conversion lifestyle.

And ‘go and sin no more’ looks like all that Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery about her future. He did not say ‘now you go on over to the temple and be like Anna the widow and prophetess in the temple’. Jesus tells everybody ‘go and sin no more’ but that does not make everybody an example to the church, the world and the children. Nor is ‘go and sin no more’ a call to a ministry vocation, but rather is is a baseline minimal requirement of us all.

Unless, I suppose, one is a musician or a motivational speaker who can attract the crowd and deliver the cash in the service of The Great Money God. Or unless one kisses the appropriate anatomy of the appropriate celebrity? Or unless one has accumulated some sort of personal power which one can then sell to those who are also all about power, and at that point we have the politics of religion. Have we not seen enough of that historically?

Way back in the day we used to pitilessly criticize the catholics for what you are recommending. We used to say that catholics could live any way they wanted all week and then just go to confession come Saturday and get declared forgiven, until after mass on Sunday when they would get right back to those things which they had just confessed. I don’t see that in scripture. Nor was that what the RCC actually taught, but it sure did seem to get practiced by some folks. That is not okay, and it does not become okay merely because it seems to be a popular idea in high profile protestantism today.

Sorry there Bill but you need more substantive arguments.

@ okrapod:

And BTW, if Bill was being satirical he none the less gave me a chance to preach against something that is prevalent in christianity today. So if that was satire, then thanks Bill, for the soap box.

dee wrote:

They were funny but a bit off colour…

Yes, I get that a lot.

@ dee:

Is anybody else getting the phrase “Poe-ing competition” here? That could work!

dee wrote:

You make me laugh after only one sip of coffee.

Well, just as long as it doesn’t happen mid-sip.

#LaurelAndHardyMoments

Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

The three biblical characters you refer to went through significant, public repentance,

The Biblical record is clear; Mr. Houghton’s lifestyle is clear … Israel Houghton ain’t no David, Peter or Paul! How many “reproaches” does the church allow Mr. Houghton before they disqualify him from ministry? Adultery wasn’t reproach enough … divorce wasn’t reproach enough … an affair while ministering wasn’t reproach enough … having children out of wedlock wasn’t reproach enough … dodging child support wasn’t reproach enough. So how does his church define “above reproach” as a qualifier for church leadership? Are there different rules for Christianity Lite? Are these approaches deemed OK in order to be culturally-relevant? Do you have to live like the devil in order to reach others who are living like hell? Do you have to have an immoral background in order to be credible to those you minister to? What in hell is wrong with such stinkin’ thinkin’?! (“in hell” might be a clue).

Janey wrote:

It’s fantastic this dude has posted all those travel and jewelry photos on the internet. It makes life so much easier for his ex-wife’s attorney.

Yep, just the “happy couple in Greece” photo posted above would swing the court’s decision for sure!

“Israel Houghton: A Questionable Revival Leader for Steven Furtick and Elevation Church”

Another disturbing element to this headline is that there are thousands who would flock to Elevation to hear Houghton sing! These “worshipers” would willingly ignore the concerns posted on this blog if they could just be gathered with the multitude to sway to his “Christian” beat. Yep, I don’t know what disturbs me most … the fact that the church has such folks on the stage or that they have an audience! Strange days in the American church as strange fire is offered up to Heaven.

Janey wrote:

All I can say: It’s fantastic this dude has posted all those travel and jewelry photos on the internet. It makes life so much easier for his ex-wife’s attorney.

And easier for the ex-mistress.

And for the he possible third child’s mother.

And I hope the new Mrs. has her eyes wide open!

Max wrote:

Another disturbing element to this headline is that there are thousands who would flock to Elevation to hear Houghton sing! These “worshipers” would willingly ignore the concerns posted on this blog if they could just be gathered with the multitude to sway to his “Christian” beat. Yep, I don’t know what disturbs me most … the fact that the church has such folks on the stage or that they have an audience! Strange days in the American church as strange fire is offered up to Heaven.

Most of them probably have no idea, and don’t bother to find anything out about the people that lead them.

Max wrote:

Christiane wrote:

I think that Paris wedding shot was the winner.

Yeah, contrast that with an image in your mind of his children grieving for their father.

not hard to imagine …. saw many heart-broken kids when I was teaching …. parents have no clue how intensely children suffer from family troubles

Christiane wrote:

Yeah, contrast that with an image in your mind of his children grieving for their father.
not hard to imagine …. saw many heart-broken kids when I was teaching …. parents have no clue how intensely children suffer from family troubles

I saw that teaching as well, along with the parents blaming the other parent, ex-in-laws, us teachers… anybody but themselves for their children acting out.

Max wrote:

Christianity Lite is the theme of the day – we’ve taken the salt out of salt!

Yep. But Christianity Lite is not Christianity, according to Somebody or other whom we used to pay attention to when He commented that salt without its savor is worth nothing but to be thrown out and walked on. Now we package this worthless substance in pretty packages, sell it for 10% plus, and threaten and accuse people if they don’t lap it up, even for crying out loud threaten them with demon possession if they don’t join the parade.

Here is the theological question: if one is on fire for foolishness is that the same as being lukewarm for the things of Christ? Does on fire for foolishness deserve being spewed out of the mouth?

We are losing out collective mind(s).

Lea wrote:

dee wrote:
True satire-when you don’t know whether they are kidding or not.
I honestly didn’t know one way or the other! I think what makes it seem more like satire than truth is the lack of malice. Anger always seems to come through the true believers.

And True Believers will always go farther out than a satirist can ever imagine.

As crazy as you can go for humor, there will always be a True Believer out there twice as crazy, twice as far out, and DEAD SERIOUS.

Max wrote:

Another disturbing element to this headline is that there are thousands who would flock to Elevation to hear Houghton sing! These “worshipers” would willingly ignore the concerns posted on this blog if they could just be gathered with the multitude to sway to his “Christian” beat.

Eyes closed, hands upraised, swaying like a reed in the breeze.

Christiane wrote:

saw many heart-broken kids when I was teaching …. parents have no clue how intensely children suffer from family troubles

My daughter was a teacher for “at risk” children. Essentially, these were kids who were behind in school because of their home environments (dads in prison, moms on drugs, grandparents struggling to raise them, etc.). She would go into school early to let a first grader in who was dropped there by a family member. He never knew where he would be sleeping each night and was always exhausted. She gave him a snack, fixed him a little bed in a corner of the classroom behind a bookcase and would wake him when the other children arrived. She let those children know that she loved them, secretly prayed with them, read them Bible stories, and told them about Jesus (she could have lost her job for this). When they left her class, most tested at grade-level. She was their “church”, while she educated them.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

As crazy as you can go for humor, there will always be a True Believer out there twice as crazy, twice as far out, and DEAD SERIOUS.

For new Wartburgers, the principle cited by our cranially-challenged magical equine friend is actually A Thing, and is known informally as “Poe’s Law” – see the wiki page thereon.

Lynn wrote:

Wow, I can only imagine the conversation surrounding King David and Sheba –

Ummm, no. I believe that was Solomon, a man of many wives and at least that one who was not a wife. You are recommending that behavior?

Lynn wrote:

… we tend to spend a lot of time harping on ministers and celebrities they are easy targets ….. let He who is not in the lime light and without sin throw the first stone

That is exactly the point. There ought not be ‘celebrities’ or those ‘in the lime light’ in the first place. This is not biblical. The church has gone way off base in letting this happen at all.

“check your heart”

Glad to, while you go and check scripture. Check back when you have chapter and verse in how to deal with celebrities and lime lighters in ‘ministry’.

Lynn wrote:

Wow, I can only imagine the conversation surrounding King David and Sheba – hmmm, and he was selected by God – spend more time in prayer and pray for the Saints in the spotlight so that they will have testimonies that will bring sinners into the Kingdom. Do not let the world see Christians behaving like they do – check your heart

Wow, I can only imagine what your opinion would be like if you actually read the Bible or cared even a tiny bit what it had to say about qualifications for leaders and what to do when those who presume to have some ability to lead in a fellowship sin.

“As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all…” I Tim 5

But there’s your problem, Lynn, the Bible, and quite possibly the One Who inspired it. Take it up with Him, He’s the One you’re struggling against.

okrapod wrote:

Lynn wrote:
Wow, I can only imagine the conversation surrounding King David and Sheba –
Ummm, no. I believe that was Solomon, a man of many wives and at least that one who was not a wife. You are recommending that behavior?

Gosh, I didn’t catch that. Her post was written by the biblically illiterate for the biblically illiterate. Just shows the mindset that surrounds the whole Furtick phenomenon. It’s a sick and disgraceful world.

LT wrote:

Lea wrote:
At Gateway, it seems like the music is the only excuse you would have for convincing people that they need to go to a physical building, because the stupid service is on tv.
Exactly. And with attendance and giving way down this year Robert Morris has been pushing the music and personal attendance as hard as he can. That sermon I referenced above is the last one from a 13 week series called “Living in His Presence”. Five of those weeks were guest speakers, but for the ones that Morris spoke at, every one of those sermons was the same thing – – you MUST show up in person to listen to the worship band because they are the ones who “usher you into the ‘Presence of God’”.
It was so incredibly boring. Every week, Robert just found a different way of saying the same thing, which is worship music is what is REQUIRED for all humans to be able to hear from God. No word on how the hearing impaired hear from God or are ushered into his presence. These 13 weeks built up to the final sermon I quoted from where Robert admitted his message is just the “icing on the cake” but the “cake” was the worship portion of the experience since that is how you enter “His Presence”.
Robert also taught this at his big Pastors’ Conference, so now there are 4,000 mini-Roberts running around telling their congregants to give more and just listen to the music so they don’t need any sermons or the Bible. There are also 4,000 mini-Roberts investing in hugely expensive sound systems, lights, smoke machines and acoustic ceiling panels, instead of using those funds to help the needy or spread the gospel.
I have heard others say before that if the current ARC megas lost their music programs they would fold within a month. I’m not sure that’s true, but in at least 3 months I could see it. The music, the lights and the fog machines put people in a dreamy receptive, dizzy, sort of buzzy delta state where everything feels good. I have heard members joke about how Gatewayt must have found a way to put aerosol Molly into the ventilation system, because the effect is like a bit a “love drug”.
The funny part is that the Saturday 5:45pm service this last weekend showed less than 250 people in a 4,000 seat auditorium. The 12:30pm Sunday service isn’t much better. The other services are also thinning out quite a bit. The 4:00pm Saturday service, which is the one that is televised and broadcasted, stays pretty full because the 800 employees are told to attend that service, with family, plus all the small groups, TKU and now Young Adults are all pressured to attend, so the TV audiences can be fooled into thinking Gateway is full and thriving. But when you watch that big auditorium with hardly any people inside, the buzzy feeling suddenly becomes sad.
Interestingly, the worship leaders literally never change. It’s like they are Stepford worship leaders or cyborgs. They have the identical smiles, pauses, chest thumping, “spontaneous” cued kneeling and differing hand gestures at each of the five services. Not a single expression changes regardless of whether they are performing for 3,600 people or 200. The younger worship leaders on weeknights do show the strain, and seem to lack energy when audience numbers and approval is down. But not the pros on weekends.
I guess the show must go on. But if people figure out that they don’t need a million dollar sound system to “usher them into the presence of God” then Gateway is finished. That’s probably why Robert desperately spent 13 solid weeks banging that 20 piece drum kit over and over on this one topic.
For those who want to hear Robert’s grand finale referenced above https://gatewaypeople.com/ministries/life/events/living-in-his-presence/session/2016/12/10/his-christmas I think this is what desperation smells like.

Thing is, big churches are typically leveraged to the point of danger, and it’s likely Gateway is no different. It may be that Gateway is not long for the world unless Morris can find some angel investors, so to speak.

Max wrote:

She would go into school early to let a first grader in who was dropped there by a family member. He never knew where he would be sleeping each night and was always exhausted. She gave him a snack, fixed him a little bed in a corner of the classroom behind a bookcase and would wake him when the other children arrived.

your daughter’s kindness to the children is radiant …. it is true that proselytizing can get someone fired, but I think kindness to those little ones is not the same thing at all ….. I remember a little girl saying to me that she wished she had a father, and (without thinking) I told her that she had a heavenly Father Who loved her far more than any earthly father ever could. I know I did the right thing. She was comforted, I think. Could I have got in trouble for that???? I don’t know. I’m not sure I cared. In the moment when a child needs to be comforted, you don’t take a look at ‘the rules’ first and plan what you are ‘allowed’ to say to them. . . . . it doesn’t work that way.

Your daughter is a blessing. You can be thankful. 🙂

Steven sure organized a motley crew for his “revival”… wonder if Perry Noble would’ve been a speaker if he hadn’t been defrocked. And between Mr. Vigue and Mr. Houghton, Mr. Furtick seems to have a hard time choosing heroes who are above reproach.

I’m pretty sure I’ve heard at least one of Houghton’s songs without even realizing it. My former church worship band played contemporary music almost exclusively, so I’m guessing his songs would be in their mix (a pretty shallow mix, as every few weeks or so songs would start repeating.) I haven’t followed Christian music (or any music for that matter) very closely since around 2002 or so, so I can’t tell who sang what song originally. I do recall that one song that popped up a lot talked about “sloppy wet kissing” which sounds more suited for a nightclub than a church (then again, the lights and fog machines were more suited for a nightclub, as well.) Other songs were just as theologically limp, if not quite so creepy.

One annoying thing my old church did was transform “7/11” songs into “7/24” songs, to the point where it transformed from singing to mindless cult-like chanting. I’m not sure when mindless repetition became a trend, or why this church felt compelled to make a bad thing even worse, but I couldn’t stand their type of worship.

On a final note, Houghton goes on expensive European vacations. Furtick lives it up in his 16,000 square foot mansion. Birds of a feather?

okrapod wrote:

Oh, wait, I am thinking that ‘Sheba’ is reference to the Queen of Sheba who allegedly went back to Ethiopia pregnant; the whole Ethiopian story which continues to this day. You may have meant ‘Bathsheba’

Yeah, I figured she was being cutesy shortening Bathsheba, but she could have been confused.

Lea wrote:

ishy wrote:

Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.” -1 Tim. 3:12

It would be nice if people would quit pretending David was a spiritual leader, too. His job was never teaching gods word, he was King. His job was political. I loved to read Samuel growing up because the stories were so interesting but I am so tired of hearing that everybody in ministries sin/criminality is ok because of David. No.

LEA,
I’m Catholic, so I don’t know from what you were taught about King David, but what the nuns told us was that David’s name holds a key to how he lived his life:

the ‘V’ in the middle of ‘DAVID’ reminds us that he fell badly into sin in the middle of his life;
but then that wasn’t the end of the story, and he repented and was able to turn again toward the Lord: the ‘V’ show that David fell downward, but then after he hit bottom, he came up again with God’s help and was able to return to God.

Now Solomon is another story: The nuns would write his name on the board starting with a large ‘S’, a slightly smaller ‘O’ and they would decrease the size of the letters until they got to the tiny ‘n’ at the end of his name,
all to teach us that Solomon had started out in the friendship of God, but that over the course of his life, he turned away from God.

Good we don’t see these two men in the same way. Each one tells the ages-old story of mankind’s choices in this world, some depart from God, but return to Him and others depart and do not return to Him.

Our goal was to end this life IN the friendship of God.

okrapod wrote:

Here is the theological question: if one is on fire for foolishness is that the same as being lukewarm for the things of Christ? Does on fire for foolishness deserve being spewed out of the mouth?

Excellent observation! And I tend to think that when the state of being “on fire” gets a lot of play, foolishness usually turns out to be involved.

Lynn wrote:

Wow, I can only imagine the conversation surrounding King David and Sheba…

“Sheba” used to be the archetypal name for a dog over here. Especially a large dog (there were a lot of German shepherd dogs called “Sheba” for some reason).

That’s probably it.

I can’t tell whether Lynn is a satirist or a new concern troll – we’re on fire today!

siteseer wrote:

okrapod wrote:
Here is the theological question: if one is on fire for foolishness is that the same as being lukewarm for the things of Christ? Does on fire for foolishness deserve being spewed out of the mouth?

Excellent observation! And I tend to think that when the state of being “on fire” gets a lot of play, foolishness usually turns out to be involved.

Remember “Teen Mania” and “Acquire the Fire”?

Fred Rogers wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Have you seen the display in Terminal C of Pittsburgh Airport?
Just glad they didn’t put my sneakers and sweater by O’Hare’s gate C-17, where they might get abducted by UFO’s.

I’ve been through O’Hare a couple times on the way to Pitt & Philly.
(Not one of my favorite transfer airports — Denver’s much better.)
What’s the significance of Gate C-17?

AnonInNC wrote:

Steven sure organized a motley crew for his “revival”… wonder if Perry Noble would’ve been a speaker if he hadn’t been defrocked. And between Mr. Vigue and Mr. Houghton, Mr. Furtick seems to have a hard time choosing heroes who are above reproach.

I’m pretty sure I’ve heard at least one of Houghton’s songs without even realizing it. My former church worship band played contemporary music almost exclusively, so I’m guessing his songs would be in their mix (a pretty shallow mix, as every few weeks or so songs would start repeating.) I haven’t followed Christian music (or any music for that matter) very closely since around 2002 or so, so I can’t tell who sang what song originally. I do recall that one song that popped up a lot talked about “sloppy wet kissing” which sounds more suited for a nightclub than a church (then again, the lights and fog machines were more suited for a nightclub, as well.) Other songs were just as theologically limp, if not quite so creepy.

One annoying thing my old church did was transform “7/11” songs into “7/24” songs, to the point where it transformed from singing to mindless cult-like chanting. I’m not sure when mindless repetition became a trend, or why this church felt compelled to make a bad thing even worse, but I couldn’t stand their type of worship.

On a final note, Houghton goes on expensive European vacations. Furtick lives it up in his 16,000 square foot mansion. Birds of a feather?

The song you’re thinking of is “How He Loves” by John Mark McMillan. Apparently, it’s a southern term.

http://kevinsimmons.org/2011/in-defense-of-a-sloppy-wet-kiss/

Daisy wrote:

LT wrote:

and that the true purpose of attending church is the singing and the waving the hands part

I don’t mean to offend any church musicians on this blog, but honestly, I don’t like music in church. It’s not for me.

I don’t like to listen to it, I don’t like to stand-up and sing along, either.

I used to sometimes time my entrance to one Baptist church to the ten after mark, because most Baptist churches normally schedule the first 10 minutes for singing.

When I tune into watch church services on TV, I will ignore the first ten minutes to avoid the music numbers, because most of them follow the formula of doing music during the first 5 – 10 minutes.

My preference (if I even go to church) is to listen to a sermon delivered in a calm fashion.

I wonder what’s wrong with just having the Eucharist being the focal point of worship again. That’s not something you can get by just watching TV. But on the other hand, it isn’t flashy or entertaining either. So Furtick and Morris et al., aren’t going to go for that.

okrapod wrote:

Where did we ever get the impression that God played by our rules? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around.

Probably when they realized it came with large amounts of money.

Lynn wrote:

… but we tend to spend a lot of time harping on ministers and celebrities …

And ministers often harp on their congregants. That’s the point. For instance, Mark Driscoll; he didn’t stay under his own church’s discipline and elder guidance, he just up and left and started a new church. Most of these celebrity pastors demand much more of their congregants than they do of themselves – that’s the problem.

At my most recent church we went over a year whilst singing together in a meeting just once, at Christmas. It just happened that way, and I think we still managed to keep Eph5:19 and Col 3:16 about making melody in our hearts to the Lord. I actually found it refreshing.

It’s late here in Blighty (not to mention dark, the shortest day being a week today), so I’ll just add one observation on the topic of music and other performing art in a gathering of the church.

Comment 1 of 1

Came across someone not long ago who led off every meeting with the phrase “I think we should have some worship”. Bit of a shame, really.

Comment 2 of 1

I think we should incorporate the Maori haka.

One example here… but there are many others.

And no, I’m not joking.

LT wrote:

Darlene wrote:
And then we have this little ditty that went viral a few years ago. “Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chXECFpGwu8
True story Darlene – about 2 years ago Gateway paid Jefferson Bethke to fly out from Hawaii to repeat his slam poetry and sell his latest book at the Young Adults Service. Astonishingly, enough of the young adults knew of Jefferson from back in his Mars Hill days and physically got up and walked out. The young adult service draws a different crowd and has a far different message than the weekend service. It was large enough exodus to be noticeable. Many others, however, did stay and waited in line to buy his book and take selfies with him. I fear if it were the regular weekend service all the people would have stayed and thrown money at him.

LT, I didn’t know Jonathan Bethke attended Mars Hill. Do you know how long? Why did those folks walk out of the service? When I saw the Bethke video for the first time, it was evident to me that it dripped with condescension and arrogance. From what I remember, there were some Neo Calvinists who liked his video as well.

In other words, it wasn’t just Gateway folks who liked that Bethke video. It fed into the arrogance of many others groups within Evangelicalism.

Where is this dude’s fear of God? I assure you; even if man is giving him a pass on these things that God won’t. Too bad the pastors that have relationship with him do not wake him up to the real spiritual danger his soul is in for such blatant defiance of God’s will.

And fathering TWO kids via adultery is SERIOUS SIN! It is a pattern. A pattern demonstrating a scary willingness to live a treacherous, deceitful, and utterly wicked double life. DO THEY REALLY THINK THEY ARE SAFE TRUSTING SUCH A PERSON WITH DEMONSTRABLY BAD CHARACTER?! Crazy.

(Besides, I don’t see the Bible giving an adulterer a pass to remarry…just saying).

Divorce Minister wrote:

Where is this dude’s fear of God?

I’m not sure where Houghton weighs in on New Calvinism, but the misplaced grace message in that movement provides a lot of wiggle room for sinners.

Divorce Minister wrote:

Too bad the pastors that have relationship with him do not wake him up to the real spiritual danger his soul is in

Wake him up?! Heck, they are providing opportunities for him to perform in church without correction! It is a synergistic relationship whereby they benefit each other.

Lynn wrote:

check your heart

Let me guess, is your last name also Rogers?

I remember seeing a meme that went:

“I’m an Orthodox Christian in favor of school prayer. Because conservative teachers won’t find it weird that my son says an akathist to the Theotokos every morning after venerating his favorite icon”.

@ LT:

Have you ever seen a video of people cheering for Kim Jong un or Kim Jong il? Everyone’s trying to outcheer the next guy, or else. I’ve seen worship music sessions turn into that.

Your narrative reminds me of something I read from Robert Morris’s good neighborino Matt Chandler. I’ve been reading the sermon series “A Beautiful Design” where he lays out of his version of complementarianism. One week he brings in a goon pastor to bash men and tell them all the ways they do horrible things and don’t do good things, and one of his points was that not being into the worship tunes enough was “sinful refusal to delight in God”. Can you imagine that? A bunch of Matt Chandler’s biblical men closing their eyes, hugging themselves, and swaying?

Further up comment, a poster mentioned Furtick’s 16,000SF abode. This is a needed accoutrement for Furtick to rub shoulders with people like Joyce Meyer, Houghton, etc. It shows he’s arrived!

This year there’s a $13,800+ real estate tax bill that goes with the property. You can bet, Steven is thrilled he pays not one penny in Federal income taxes on money he uses to pay this expense.

How much more would we all have if we no longer had to pay Federal income taxes on ALL of our housing expenses? These so-called religious men of God are only too happy to have the Federal government help them out year after year.

Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele wrote:

what happens when a teacher decides her religion holds sway in the classroom. She can tell a seven year old child, “Deana, we are not pigs, we pray before we eat.”

“pigs” There are also derogatory descriptions I can use for a teacher that bullies a student.

okrapod wrote:

@ Nick Bulbeck:
Good idea. You go first.

Kikiki kakaka kauana!
Kei waniwania taku tara
Kei tarawahia, kei te rua i te kerokero!
He pounga rahui te uira ka rarapa;
Ketekete kau ana to peru kairiri
Mau au e koro e – Hi! Ha!
Ka wehi au ka matakana,
Ko wai te tangata kia rere ure?
Tirohanga ngā rua rerarera
Ngā rua kuri kakanui i raro! Aha ha!

Ka mate, ka mate! ka ora! ka ora!
Ka mate! ka mate! ka ora! ka ora!
Tēnei te tangata pūhuruhuru
Nāna nei i tiki mai whakawhiti te rā
Ā, upane! ka upane!
Ā, upane, ka upane, whiti te ra!</strong

siteseer wrote:

Bill Rogers wrote:

Israel has repented of his sin and is now living in the light of God’s love.

How do you know this, Bill?

Its the Little Voices.

@ Muslin, fka Dee Holmes & mirele:

Never said she was fired. My comment was simply a theoretical where and when.
There have been abuses on both sides of the issue since Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka in 1954. That’s why we have federal appeals courts, so that each case can be evaluated and judged on its own merits.
Tell ya’ what. Let’s you and me tangle before the bench in that theoretical where and when, and may the best bull$#i++er win.

brian wrote:

Even having people pray that God would take me out if I did not repent comes to mind.

i.e. Putting a Hex on you.

MidwesternEasterner wrote:

The song you’re thinking of is “How He Loves” by John Mark McMillan. Apparently, it’s a southern term.

They say that type of CCM is real popular in the Gay Community.
Because “Where else can you hear a man singing a gushy love song to another man?”

Muff Potter wrote:

since Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka in 1954.

Here is Brown v. Board of Education, which was about segregation, not school prayer.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1955/347us483

“Question
Does the segregation of public education based solely on race violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment?”

Yes. Chief Justice Earl Warren delivered the opinion of the unanimous Court. The Supreme Court held that “separate but equal” facilities are inherently unequal and violate the protections of the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court also held that the segregation of public education based on race instilled a sense of inferiority that had a hugely detrimental effect on the education and personal growth of African American children.

@ Velour:

This comment is not directed to Velour specifically, but I am quoting her comment to ponder below.

I find some rulings, like this one, interesting. It seems that many government and public meetings have had some form of prayer to start them off since the first amendment was instituted. I wonder what those original men did mean when they established the amendment since many of them continued to pray publicly at public and working government gatherings. Of course, the public school system, itself, did not even exist when the amendments were ratified.

Have government officials, and others, been violating the constitution for all these years?

Bridget wrote:

I wonder what those original men did mean when they established the amendment…

I, too.

My best guess is that they established it as a bulwark against the kind of state religion seen for many generations in Europe, that had been the cause of so much corrupting of the church and thence of so much oppression and cruelty.

It’s always difficult to build something really effective that’s fundamentally against something else, though. What you’re building is still defined by what you’re rejecting and there will always be consequences, some of them quite unintended.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

My best guess is that they established it as a bulwark against the kind of state religion seen for many generations in Europe, that had been the cause of so much corrupting of the church and thence of so much oppression and cruelty.

I am in total agreement with this thought. I believe they had seen way too much religious and state cruelty, especially when the two are combined.

It is interesting to watch how current day courts interpret the Constitution versus how men 300 years ago would interpret the same text. I think we see/suffer/experience similar issues with scripture.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

LT wrote:
Robert also taught this at his big Pastors’ Conference, so now there are 4,000 mini-Roberts…

The phrase “4000 mini-Roberts”, all by itself, was enough to make me shudder and want to lie down for a while.

Paraphrasing the villain in the Austin Powers movie…

“I Shall Call Him ‘Mini-Me’! And Mini-Me! And Mini-Me! And Mini-Me! And …”

@ Velour:

Thanx for the correction. Sorry to get my cases (segregation & religion) mixed up. I still stand on my original position however, that expressions of religious faith and those expressions derived from religious constructs should not be prohibited in the public square, public educational facilities, or public buildings.

ishy wrote:

…Add that to the fact that there were usually 2 or 3 people in the house still sleeping, and asking her to turn it down earned a flat “No” and a slammed, locked door every time. I think music can be an idol it in its own right, that pretends to be a way of faith but is really an emotional crutch that has nothing to do with trusting God.

Or, in the case of your friend, an opportunity to be passive aggressively cruel bordering on viciously sadistic in the name of god.

Two things I’ve seen defenders of leaders so-called such as Houghton use are 1). “Touch not the Lord’s anointed” and 2). “But what of David? Have you no forgiveness?”

1). “Touch not the Lord’s anointed” – Referred to King Saul and David’s desire not to leap ahead of God’s plan to do whatever He wished with Saul. Remember, the Lord told the Israelites NOT to seek a king, warned them about how said king would enslave them and send their sons off to deadly wars, which is essentially what Saul did. Saul was not a follower of the Lord, he was eventually killed in battle and rejected by the Lord.

So if supporters of abusive, self centered leaders who lead the people in sin want to compare their leaders to one who was not part of the Lord’s best plan, one whom the Lord warned the people about, one who would enslave the people and kill off their young men, eventually being rejected by the Lord and killed off, then I suppose the supporters may have, in their biblical ignorance, unwittingly swerved into more truth than they intended.

2). “But what of David?” Yes, it’ true that on one hand David slept with Bathsheba and killed off her husband and on the other was called by the Lord “A man after My Own heart.” But it’s also true that after David sinned so glaringly calamity came upon him and the “sword never left his house”: he was publicly called out by the Prophet Nathan in the strongest terms, such that we still cluck our tongues at it 3,000 years later, the death of his infant son, the rape of daughter Tamar by son Amnon, the violent death of Amnon at the hands of his brother Absalom, the rebellion of Absalom against David, cowering in exile, humiliation, his concubines publicly slept with by Absalom and more humiliation, the violent death of Absalom, the execution of son Adonijah, and on and on. He died bitter, calling upon his offspring to execute several.

So if supporters want to point to David as an example of a godly leader who publicly sinned and was forgiven and then snarl at detractors who call their leaders to task, asking them if they even understand the meaning of “forgiveness”, I wonder if they understand the meaning of forgiveness and if they’d be willing to have their heroes put through what David endured for the remainder of his life after he’d sinned? The answer, of course, is “No”, because they care nothing about the Bible, they only misuse it to prop up their idols.

Shauna posted on the Open Discussion thread that she does not have funds to provide a Christmas for her son Billy. (He is the minor who was abused by a church member and Dee covered the tragic story and how the church mishandled it.)
https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

If anyone could help out, including for presents, give cards for places like WalMart, etc.
they have some very tangible needs right now. Including the basics for living life.

Thank you.

Former CLCer wrote:

I was listening to the gospel music station, and they played a clip of Israel Houghton and his new wife singing together, and the announcers said that this is their favorite couple. (Head bang!)

If you raise your window and listen closely, you will hear Wartburgers across the country banging their heads with you!

“Let he who has no sin cast the first stone…” I’m glad God is NOT like so many of you.

The issue highlights the bareness and conceitedness of the American gospel movement. The lack sight and standards. We are more pagan than the pagans. We full hell from the church pew and pulpit. The churches have plenty people and money but no God. Israel and Stephen represent cold callous religion not Jesus Christ.