"The most influential women’s leader at your church may be someone who has never stepped inside its sanctuary. It may be someone your pastor has never even heard of."
In case you haven't noticed, national women's ministries have become a 'force of nature' over the last five to ten years. Sharon Hodde Miller, a pastor's wife and mom, who also holds a Ph.D. focused on evangelical women and calling, recently wrote a thought-provoking article published on the Christianity Today website. The title — What I Want Pastors to Know About Women's Ministries: Is the local church meeting half the needs of the congregation? should serve as a wake-up call, especially for those who minister in the local church. The CT article begins as follows:
There was a time, in our not too distant past, when women’s ministry was a punchline. For years, women’s ministry was viewed as a second rate ministry, more akin to a social club than a serious effort at discipleship. The label conjured images of women sipping tea and doing crafts, occasionally discussing Jesus, but mostly recipes and self-esteem.
Because of this stereotype, many women have tended to avoid women’s ministry events. In my own years of serving this arm of the church, I can’t tell you how many times I heard, “That’s just not my thing.”
But the wind is shifting, and women’s ministry is not what it used to be. Change at the local level has been slow, but national women’s ministries have become a force of nature.
A related Christianity Today article mentioned the recent dust-up with Jen Hatmaker, one of the biggest writers and speakers among today’s generation of evangelical women. When LifeWay stopped selling her books after she spoke out in support of same-sex marriage, many took notice. For those who haven't been paying attention to this trend, they suddenly realized that Christian women are increasingly looking to nationally known female leaders for spiritual growth and inspiration—"especially when they don’t see leaders who look like them stepping up in their own churches."
Several months ago I was listening to Nancy Leigh DeMoss Wolgemuth on the radio, and she expressed great sorrow and frustration that we don't have female prayer warriors like those of the 70s and 80s. I was incensed and responded to her out loud with these words: "Well, duh… You and your cohorts have silenced women through your mantra of submission."
It now appears that the younger generation of women are circumventing the local church and seeking spiritual nurturing elsewhere. And who can blame them? According to the CT article that mentions Hatmaker:
Titles by Bible teachers Lysa Terkeurst, Priscilla Shirer, and Beth Moore regularly outsell new releases from pastors such as Max Lucado and T. D. Jakes, according to rankings from the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association. Bloggers such as Hatmaker and Ann Voskamp—with books popular enough to land on TheNew York Times bestseller lists—have triple as many Facebook followers as the biggest congregations in the biggest denomination in the country.
Jen Wilkin, a women's ministry leader who attends The Village Church, explained:
"While most evangelical women know their Tim Kellers from their Rick Warrens, male pastors aren’t expected to parse female teachers. The bookshelves in their offices contain no books by contemporary female authors, and their sermons typically do not reference female voices, other than the usual suspects of Elisabeth Elliot or Corrie ten Boom—both dead, for the record. The typical church organizational structure tends to segregate women’s ministry as an autonomous unit—a mysterious kingdom that operates according to its own set of rules.”
The CT article goes on to state;
Wilkin, who leads a citywide women’s Bible study in the Dallas area, wants to see more churches focus on the gifts of the women in their own congregations. “Local churches of all sizes tend to forget to identify, equip, and celebrate ‘church mothers’ who can—among other things—serve those younger in the faith in tangible, relational ways,” she said. “When these women are missing, the voices of women with national platforms can become too loud in the ears of younger women, in particular.
“National women leaders should be a reference point,” she said, “but not a replacement for female leadership at the local church level.”
Sharon Miller, who earned her Ph.D. at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (and lives near us!) explained that while evangelicals were debating the role of women in the church, many women were finding ways to use their gifts (in many cases outside their church). Clearly, these larger women's ministries are filling a need, and one has to wonder whether local church leaders will finally respond to that need.
Miller expresses her desire below:
It is my hope that the rise in influence of evangelical women on the national level will testify, in an undeniable way, to the powerful gifts of women. I also hope it will instill church leaders with a greater sense of urgency to steward those gifts. God is gifting women with talents to build up His church, but women are too often left to do this work alone. Women need the church to help cultivate their gifts, provide healthy accountability, and offer financially viable routes to ministry.
Sharon Miller then explains that while conducting her research, she discovered a number of practical options for pastors in leading female congregants. She states:
The first is rather simple: affirm the gifts of women. This can be done in a number of ways, such as citing women authors in your sermons and blog posts, or recommending books by women.
Another way to affirm the gifts of women is to include women in leadership development, especially when it comes to mentoring. Both inside and outside the church, women are often excluded from mentoring due to their gender, and concerns of appropriateness. However, some male leaders have responded to this obstacle with creative alternatives to the traditional mentoring model. Ed Stetzer, for example, wrote about mentoring a group of women in his own organization.
She then concludes with this wonderful recommendation:
That leads to a final practical step, which is to support your women’s ministry with financial resources. It communicates a lot to emerging female leaders, when they are encouraged to serve in a ministry that the church isn’t invested in. It also discourages the most trained and gifted women from contributing to your church, because they can’t lead in a volunteer position and support themselves financially.
Women’s ministry is not what it used to be. More and more women are getting advanced education, learning Greek and Hebrew, and reading theology, all with the aim of serving their churches for the glory of God. God is raising up a generation of women who are highly equipped and eager to serve, and we are tasting the earliest fruits of the harvest. I can only imagine what an amazing crop of leaders the church would reap, should it sow into all of the soil.
Unfortunately, there appear to be fewer and fewer ways for women to serve their congregations, particularly those that have embraced complementatrianism/patriarchy. Hoping to meet Sharon Hodde Miller someday! We are grateful she is paying close attention to how women are being treated by their pastors and other Christian leaders and is reporting on it.
Ladies, If you won’t be respected in your church, your gifts, the gifts of other women, the gifts of your daughters…slam those wallets shut and don’t give that church a dime, in my opinion.
We shouldn’t fund places where we aren’t wanted. If they won’t respect us, and the Holy Spirit that indwells us, then they can obviously survive without our money.
Decent men are just as offended by women being treated as second-class citizens, which isn’t of God.
“support your women’s ministry with financial resources”
an honorable and righteous suggestion for the SBC whose men have, for many years, relied heavily on the income from contributions honoring valiant Christian women like Lottie Moon
Velour wrote:
Yes!
From the OP:
Julia Duin pointed this very thing out in her book “Quitting Church” which was published several years ago.
In that work, Duin already pointed to the trend of Christian women joining para-church groups or starting their own ministries to get around the sexist and limiting gender complementarian culture and rules which prevent women from contributing meaningfully within churches.
I think the internet has been another outlet for Christian women.
If complementarians won’t allow women to speak within churches, they will go outside the church, or leave churches altogether, and find other ways to put their gifts and skills to use.
You know if you just read the 4 Gospels and look at the stories concerning women and men, well the men do not fair to well. The people who stayed with Christ, outside of John and I think that is debatable, were women. The people who supported Christ financially were women Luke 8:1-3, the first to proclaim the good news was Mary Magdalene. All the “apostles” headed for the hills when Jesus was arrested. I know people know this. My experience in the evangelical machine was constantly hearing about how women can be deceived, are inferior, can’t be pastors, want to usurp a man’s authority, need to be in subjection etc. It was rather sad. Now I experienced similar in being reminded what a spiritual piece of human filth I am and how I make Jesus want to vomit because I’m lukewarm bla bla bla.
The more I look back on it, it was unrelenting with the Eve fell deceived Adam basically women caused the fall of the entire universe. What a mind twist, and God only knows how much pain this has caused. I mean true pain that I honestly do not think men can fully grasp because it is so ingrained in many faith communities.
This might make me a heretic or even apostate maybe even in league with Satan himself but I see God wanting us to strive with passioned filled grace to fulfill our part in God’s grand symphony, strands in the hands of the great weaver, strokes in the tapestry of the great painting etc. Let those that can teach, teach, those that can be pastors be pastors, those that are the breadwinners do so etc.
GMFS: where we’re just out of the medals…
@ Nick Bulbeck:
It seems I’m tied for fourth place (to the nearest minute anyway) with Brian; presumably he was given fourth after They examined the photograph.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Hey, NICK
I’ve got two medals: second and third ….. you can have one if it will make you happy 🙂
@ Christiane:
That’s very kind, Christiane, but I kind of feel that a medal must be earned, and you earned both of yours!
Though I generally consider these to be scored (for want of a better word!) rather like a long-jump competition; that is, entrants are ranked according to their single best jump, with their other jumps counting only in the event of a tie.
I’m still half awake and processing, but can I just say how tacky I think it is that CT’s comments post to Ed Stetzer’s Facebook page? And that he’s mentioned in just about every CT article I read (even this one), so I wonder if the editors insert him?
While I’m glad CT is tackling issues like this, Stetzer is another glaring example of a Calvinista.
The one thing I will say about this article right now is that I wish we could talk about how women might serve in church, not in womens’ ministry.
But seriously… I’ve actually read the post the noo.
I would personally like to see the day when we don’t really have “mens’ ministry” and “women’s ministry”, but instead we have (and I don’t really like the word, but for want of a better…) ministry.
There are several men, and women, whose output Lesley and I regularly peruse and and find useful. They commonly work together, sharing platforms in public and organising/building alongside one another in private (I don’t mean “in secret”, simply that this work is part of the necessary behind-the-scenes activity).
A strong leadership team of any kind is likely to have both men and women on it, all capable and qualified by training, experience and character. A woman who knows her stuff is much more interesting to us than a man who doesn’t, and vice versa.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
well said!
brian wrote:
But following their argument to its next conclusion, they are saying that the blood of Jesus is good enough to atone for a man’s sin (Adam’s) but not for a woman’s sin (Eve’s). Thus, Eve is more powerful/greater than [insert appropriate math symbol] than Jesus!
In the end their faulty argument makes a mockery of Jesus.
And it makes a mockery of the Holy Spirit. According to them, the Holy Spirit is fully functioning in men but not in women. Therefore the Holy Spirit is defective.
And then…they insult God.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Like (pastor) Pete Briscoe at Bent Tree Church in Texas who encouraged our own dear Dee (Parsons) to teach the Bible to women AND men while she lived in Texas.
Here in the UK, the Anglican church has many many female vicars doing a great job. In fact the church would collapse without them. Other denominations have women leaders too. Many are very gifted, with first class honours degrees and doctorates who’ve left extremely lucrative careers (one being my DD who was a PA to Cabinet Minister in Parliament) to follow their vocation. Recently I was told I was meeting a Rev Sam XXXX and was surprised to find that he was male, I was expectina him to be a Rev Samantha XXXX, as female vicars are so much the norm here!
matilda wrote:
That is wonderful!
And by the way, greetings from across The Pond (and a Pebble).
Velour in California, up sipping coffee
I am thankful that women are having these discussions.
If the system stays the same and uncomfortable conversations about the subtle, overt and wherever on the spectrum, shape or form, manifestations of sexism is never addressed…the talk about women in ministry/church will not do anything except arrange furniture and lay down rugs and talk about maybe we should get some blue curtains instead of the red because the blue pops a little more color and really ties this wall over here together.
So there may be some buying some more female staff and accenting some more female mentions from the pulpit or hanging up some female names up on the the theological blog world and decorating some more female students in seminaries, but what we would not have is sorrowful repentance and a true pursuit of healing and reconciliation. Real dialogue, real prayer, real listening to women will be absent. The courage to pick up an ax and destroy the rotting wood of what actually caused problems and silence or abuse for women in the first place. Otherwise you have cosmetic changes that will last a few years, but the problems will just keep resurfacing while the foundation continues to crack and sink.
What’s going on with the foundation? How was it built, with what, and when, and what got us to this point? We need historical, cross-cultural, interracial voices on the women experience and how it has been destroyed, taken, lessened and has kept her confused and hindered from the Triune God who loves her.
The life and pain and promise of all women in the church past, present, and future and how it has manifested and gone wrong since the beginning of time needs to be embodied and resurrected. To go back to when the first concrete of death was laid and to replace it with the cornerstone of Christ, to work up from there to reorient a Christ life for women today. Many women and places and churches have done great work in this and she speaks all the way back from Eve to Ruth to the first gospel witness of Jesus’ resurrection to the work of Acts to Timothy’s mentors/life givers, through all of history until now. It’s all there to be discovered and unearthed, she is there to be heard and seen.
For women, if these things are not dealt with or listened to it is wise to leave and find a place that does. Otherwise, lasting change will not occur or be possible.
Daisy wrote:
Or go to a non-comp church that actually respects women and includes them in all levels of leadership, not just ‘women’s ministries’. Stop segregating and stop ignoring.
I’m not surprised that women buy more books, though.
Emily Honeycutt wrote:
Yes!
Where are the female N.T. Wrights? With all due respect to Beth Moore and the rest, some of us are waybeyond that and the average women’s Bible study is as intellectually stimulating as a bowl of oatmeal. It’s healthy, it’s good for you, but after a while you just want a plate of bacon and eggs.
Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
From what I hear, our own Dee (Parsons) here at The Wartburg Watch was an indepth, challenging Bible teacher at Bent Tree Church in Texas, encouraged by her then pastor
Pete Briscoe.
Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
Well, for the most part, they’re advancing stan’s kingdom from within the hated “charismatic” movement. That’s where Lesley and I find them, anyway.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I don’t understand your comment here, Nick. Could you elaborate?
Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
Personally, I’m skeptical about the majority of women’s bible study materials being healthy and good for you. I can’t respect female authors teaching the prosperity gospel, goofy silly mysticism, saccarine sentimentalism, or Created To Be His Helpmeet.
Maybe if the seminaries would quit kicking out the Sheri Kloudas and quit steering all the wives and fiancees into the homemaking track, and actually let them get the M.Div. and similar degrees, the Body of Christ might have better discernment.
@ Bridget:
I would also be curious to hear any recommendations. What I took mirele to mean was something on the more scholarly side. You would think the charismatics would be less scholarly in style than the neocalvinists, since they are so focused on intellect. But maybe they don’t let the girls focus on that.
I don’t know. Does prosperity gospel fall under charismatic or no?
NJ wrote:
Interestingly, I was talking to a lady the other day about her seminary degree. She said she went to a ‘northern’ Baptist school and they were fairly welcoming of her. So that’s good, I guess.
brian wrote:
What a gorgeous picture, Brian! Amen!
ishy wrote:
Ishy – BOOM!
Yes – why do we even have segregated ministries? The Bible speaks to both equally!
ishy wrote:
Exactly. I don’t get the whole pink and blue focus in spiritual matters. I am fine learning from either male or female theological scholars. Have learned a lot from Carolyn Custis James and quite a few others who are no longer with us like Bushnell and Booth.
Like many of their male counterparts, not a fan of Beth Moore, Elyse Fitzpatrick or Jen Wilkins, anyway. The others- am not familiar.
Btw: Is Jen familiar with Karen Hinckley– formerly of the Village?
@ Deana Holmes (fka mirele):
LifeWay had Beth Moore churning out bestsellers like hot cakes. Big money machine with fancy POS displays and church distribution. I remember one Moore bible study question as I was perusing the workbook at my cousin’s house. Something like this:
What would you buy Sarah for a baby shower gift?
Sigh.
The women mentioned in the OP that I am familiar with stay within comp doctrinal confines. Must be part of the inner ring contracts.
If female believers are to be set free to use their spiritual gifts to edify the Body of Christ and be a part of the Great Commission, they need to stay the heck away from New Calvinism! Authoritarian, patriarchal pastors of the new reformation desire to keep the sisters in bondage, rather than turning them loose. They are only “free” to read books and attend conferences authored/led by women blessed by the New Calvinists, such as Beth Moore and Priscilla Shirer. They pose no threat to the movement.
If there is an Achilles heel to New Calvinism, it may very well be when women within its ranks rise up en masse to declare “Wait just a darn minute here!”. The movement will fade into obscurity when bold women start dragging their sorry husbands/boy friends out of the mess. He whom the Lord has set free is free indeed, except in complementatrian patriarchies.
@ Emily Honeycutt:
Great comment.
ishy wrote:
Stetzer is a master at playing on both sides of the fence. He has been elusive in his exact theological leaning; he knows how to ride the most popular waves to stay afloat.
Emily Honeycutt wrote:
Welcome to TWW.
Lydia wrote:
Exactly, as noted in my upstream comment.
brian wrote:
brian wrote:
My experience hasn’t been quite like yours. I haven’t heard the women are more easily deceived or inferior stuff. Not usurping a man’s authority is constant, though. Women have to be protected, and taken care of, and submissive. It’s like women are some kind of hybrid fragile china doll/Labrador retriever mix. Please! In this day and age, what are the men going to protect women from? Raping, pillaging Bedouin tribes that roam the public schools, the malls, and the Walmart super centers?
Eve and the original sin??? Ha ha ha. Eve had nothing to do with the original sin! She didn’t count! It didn’t matter ’til Adam took a bite.
I haven’t been to church since February …… got tired of the comments. When my husband and I go somewhere in his truck, he drives: when we go in my car, I drive. There is a church deacon, no less, who makes fun of my husband every time I drive to church. There are men who will come shake my husband’s hand with me right beside him, but don’t even acknowledge that I exist.
A friend through church collects snake skins – he puts them on hunting bows that he sells. When I bagged a copperhead with a clean head shot, my husband couldn’t resist skinning the snake and taking the skin to the man at church. Several men gathered ’round and asked my hubby where he bagged the snake. My husband said, I didn’t bag it – my wife did. There was total silence. You could see the disgust and disdain on most of the faces.
@ Max:
Dee and I had the pleasure of having lunch with Emily several years ago. We were impressed with her intelligence and insights regarding Neo-Calvinism.
@ Max:
Great comment!
Emily Honeycutt wrote:
You forgot about kitchen detail at fellowship meals and teaching children.
I’m 52. Over the past 20 years or so, I’ve watched the churches in Southern Kentucky backtrack on what women should be allowed to do, revoking rights that we used to have.
Jean wrote:
Amen! Why indeed!
But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 1 Cor. 12:25
Christiane wrote:
Ha, if a woman today behave like Lottie Moon, she’d get kicked out of an SBC church! They use a great woman to promote what is, by and large, male missionaries. If you are a married woman and want to be a missionary/plant curch, it’s a no go. The hubby must be the primary missionary and the wife must sign a contract stating that she will support and serve the husband in his missionary work.
Max wrote:
Boy is that true!
@ Deb:
Deb, the treatment of women in New Calvinist ranks is really starting to wear thin on my spiritual nerves! My wife and I have “complemented” each other with our spiritual gifts for over 40 years. I recognize her as a born-again baptized believer who is just as important to the Kingdom as me. I often tell her that she is one of the most godly men I know – to which, I get the ‘look’ ;^)
The great shame of authoritarian patriarchies is that female believers have to go to a woman’s conference to find unity … since they can’t worship freely in spirit and truth with the men at their home church.
ishy wrote:
The veil between Jew and Gentile may have been rent in twain, but a very heavy veil between male and female is still very much in existence.
Do unto to others as you would have them do unto you ……. unless those others are women???
Nah. I vote for treating these men the same way they treat women.
@ brian:
Beautifully said!!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Like fleas?
Nancy2 wrote:
First, I have to say that this sounds amazing.
Nancy2 wrote:
This, otoh, is maddening.
Although I occasionally get annoyed at the political bent in my church, it is so peaceful to me to see women respected and in all positions.
Nancy2 wrote:
With the proliferation of New Calvinism in SBC ranks, for the first time in my 60+ years as a Southern Baptist, I am saddened when they take up the Lottie Moon Christmas offering for foreign missions. The same can be said about the Annie Armstrong offering for North American missions, knowing that most of those funds are going to plant New Calvinist churches – to provide jobs for the growing army of fresh YRR seminary graduates. It’s so sad to witness a once-great evangelistic denomination on this route. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against planting more workers on foreign fields or planting more churches in America … but this is really about planting theology contrary to SBC’s majority belief and practice. And the SBC pew still doesn’t have a clue.
Nancy2 wrote:
I read someone in reference to the Tullian situation talk about how no pastor should be counseling a female parishioner, it should always be the pastors wife. Who has what kind of training? Possibly none at all. But obviously women should go to her. Honestly, the pastors wife might be a very nice lady but I find this insulting really.
If we are talking about practical reasons, the simple solution of actually having women with training on staff and in ministry who are available to counsel never crosses any of their minds.
@ Lea:
too true
Nancy2 wrote:
WITH BENEFITS (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean know what I mean…)
(ed.)
While my evangelical experience was relatively brief (about 4 years), I did notice they enjoy placing people into buckets.
Women’s ministry, men’s ministry, single women ministry, single mom ministry, deaf ministry, French ministry, African ministry and on and on.
One day a pastor greeted myself and MJ (my wife), turned to MJ and said “We have a Filipino church fellowship here, you know” – I’m not Filipino so I guess the expectation is that she would go to her “ministry” while I attend the general service.
Nancy2 wrote:
“PENETRATE! COLONIZE CONQUER! PLANT”?
or
“DO AS I SAY OR I BEAT YOU!”?
Nancy2 wrote:
That’s why you’re our Fearless Leader at Camp Backbone.
HUG
Do me a favor. Some of our newer readers may not know that you are directly quoting Doug Wilson. When you use one of his obnoxious statements, could you put Doug Wilson’s name next to it? The same goes for Mark Driscoll’s comments.
Max wrote:
And Nancy Leigh DeMoss (whatever her married name is now).
Sigh. Such brain-washing. Delivered like Michelle Duggar.
Max wrote:
Yes, Max! Speaking as a younger-ish woman who grew up in complementarian circles, I have been so empowered by ‘national’ leaders such a Phyllis Tickle, Carolyn Custis James, and others. Their example of leadership means so much to me -not just because of what they say, but because they claim the authority to say it. Unfortunately, I have yet to be a part of a community that openly recognizes and celebrates this kind of leadership. I know a lot of the more conservative friends lump them in with ‘prosperity gospel’ speakers because they seem to make a lot of money off conferences and resources…but the NEED is there – and they are filling a huge void left by local churches.
Nancy2 wrote:
Mic Drop!
Jean wrote:
So true. Because women at so many churches have been silenced, except I guess the ‘pastors wife’ or ‘elders wife’ or whoevers wife is allowed to speak. Whatever their qualifications or personal talents.
Jean wrote:
As long as the organized church runs unbalanced in this area, there will continue to a void in local congregations of doing the right thing before God. Para-church ministries have gotten a bad name by certain religious groups, but I have found many of them to be closer to the true church than the churches which criticize them.
On a related note (and maybe a thread will be forthcoming), one of the victims in the rick trotter case is speaking out because the pastor who gave him a pass and covered it all up (iirc) was invited to speak at a womens ministry!
Because that makes sense.
I’ve really enjoyed listening to Tickle. She was a sharp lady.
We recently met the new Pastor at the downtown Presbyterian church in our small town. Very smart, with an actual earned Doctorate, but also very personable and friendly. We hope she does well there. There are also 2 female pastors serving at the downtown Methodist churches. We find that encouraging.
The Babylon Bee nails it (parody site)
http://babylonbee.com/news/complementarian-church-now-allowing-women-give-announcements-non-authoritative-manner/
Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
Katharine Bushnell has long passed on, and may she awaken to a goodly inheritance in Olam Ha-Ba. Here credentials were impeccable, medical doctor and self-taught Hebrew and Greek scholar.
Present day?
Ann Nyland probably fits the bill as a world class New Testament Greek scholar. Interestingly, her works got banned from the God’s Word to Women website because of her views on human sexuality and same sex attraction.
@ Muff Potter:
Note to ed:
Should be: Her credentials, not Here credentials
Thanx
@ Deana Holmes (fka mirele):
Deana,
here is a great list of female theologians, at Maggi Dawn’s blog:
https://maggidawn.net/2015/08/11/there-are-no-women-on-my-theology-bookshelf-2/
There are indeed some among these names who are of the stature of N.T. Wright (though not many men are, either…); I have seen Wright quotes from Hooker and Barker in his work. I recognize quite a few on the list, and have read some of, or listened to, Julian of Norwich, Morna Hooker, Sarah Coakley, Simone Weil, Dorothy Sayers, Margaret Barker – also some not on the list, like Elizabeth Theokritoff. Maggi includes women with all sorts of viewpoints. Well worth exploring, at least to get to know who these women are via Wikipedia or other sources. YouTube or Vimeo should have videos of the living academics.
ishy wrote:
Amen! This feels a little like “separate but equal” to me, which is completely untenable. I have a love/hate relationship with “women’s ministry”; I have been blessed by women’s ministries in the past. But as I look back on my Christian walk, a hallmark of growth for me took place 10 years ago in a Precept class led by a gifted woman in my church as we walked through Hebrews. Her gift blessed everyone in that room, male and female alike. And as a young believer who was crazy enough to tackle my first Precept class in the book of Hebrews, her leadership and that class developed my love and passion for the Word. So now I am thinking perhaps the idea of such a ministry is self-defeating. If all are using the gifts the Holy Spirit has given them for the glory of God and the edification of the entire body, there would be no need for all these niche ministries. Those who have the gift of teaching, let them teach…those who have the gift of leading let them lead. I do believe that is a biblical concept.
Muff Potter wrote:
I think the idea that we can’t listen to one person because their ideas and opinions differ from ours on a point or three could be an entire discussion in itself.
dainca wrote:
Thanks! Will take a look.
brian wrote:
Thanks for ‘getting it’ Brian. Yes, it causes so much pain. So many men have no clue whatsoever!
From an African perspective–on the topic of Biblical Gender Equality. I am just back from a ministry opportunity to do 3 — 2 day conferences on this topic in Uganda and Kenya in November. The biblical teaching was well received in each conference. There were local pastors as well as those who had travelled some distance to come there, invited by the leaders.
It was joyful as I watched people keenly interested to get their own answers. My interpreter in Nairobi encapsulated what others were expressing: “This teaching has changed my heart and mind regarding what I think about women (in the church). Thank you so much for coming and teaching this!”
People/Pastors are changing in how they do church. After I spoke in April in Eldoret, Kenya, the pastor/ bishop gently presented a plan to their church and it was accepted. The plan was that the sisters take and lead on two Sundays of the month and the brothers lead the other two Sundays. Wow, that was an intriguing idea, especially in their culture. And it worked!!
What initially happened were two things. One, the other Christian leaders in town were asking them exactly what were they doing??!! Second, there were a number of ladies who came to Christ!! and have joined their church! So the church grew after this welcoming decision.
As Bishop Chris shared before and after each of my teaching sessions, he was clear when he spoke directly to pastors: “Pastors, if you want your church to grow, enable the sisters to lead and to take part! If you do not, be sure of this fact, your church will not grow and flourish.” He could back it up by the change of heart and belief that he and their church experienced.
There has been good feedback from many pastors in both countries how this teaching has impacted them and how they are aiming to change how they view women. Pastors plan to encourage, to train, and to assist the sisters to be set free in their callings in Christ and to lead in the Body of Christ. This is so exciting. It is a move of the Holy Spirit, to be sure.
I have been invited by pastors in many cities to return and teach this topic in their churches. This is both exciting and overwhelming.
If anyone is interested in the story of how I went to Kenya the first time last April, I have an article on my ChurchExiters.com website which describe this ministry experience in an African context.
Just wanted y’all to know what has been happening ‘over there’!!.
Nancy2 wrote:
My experience in all my years in conservative church settings. It’s so weird, you want to go look in a mirror and see if you really exist.
I’ve never found much useful in “women’s ministries” in the churches I’ve gone to, but, to be honest, I feel the same way about these parachurch women’s ministries. There’s just something very narrow about them. To be honest, it’s been awhile since I’ve read any of these women’s type books, but those I’ve read in the past tend to be pretty much wrapped up in your “role” as a woman, as opposed to being about Christ. If I want to study and learn, I want to read the same materials men or any students of scripture would read. As soon as things are segregated into ‘this is men’s’ and ‘this is women’s’ it seems like the level drops to a Mickey Mouse endeavor.
I have no doubt there is a lot of money to be made in “women’s ministries,” though, and, because of that, they will proliferate. I’ve read some articles on women who are obsessed with Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer, who follow them like groupies. It seems like just another cult of personality; the men have the ones they follow, the women have theirs. Another kingdom of perpetual milk, no meat to be had. How much of it will be worthwhile and stand the test of time?
Nancy2 wrote:
I saw this happen at an SBC-YRR church plant. The young reformed pastor was greeting folks in the congregation before the service. There was a large group of visiting college students in the row in front of us. The “pastor” shook hands with the young men, skipping past the young ladies. He didn’t recognize them, welcome them back, or say boo. There is something sick about a seminary which will indoctrinate their students to behave this way, not to mention a whole movement of them. Yep, New Calvinism is sick and wrong in a lot of ways.
If you don’t mind some Catholic theologians, here are some names. I admit that these women do push the envelop a lot, and I am a bit uncomfortable with them for that reason. A book that I just finished that has some of their work in it is “Dangerous Memories” by Elizabeth Johnson. It is a mosaic of Mary in Scripture.
Rosemary Radford Ruether
Megan McKenna
Marianne Katoppo
siteseer wrote:
And Jesus gets lost in all the hype.
Lea wrote:
One issue I have (should I ever attend a church again, which may be doubtful) is that there are not many theologically conservative churches which are gender egalitarian.
I don’t know if I’d feel comfortable attending a gender egal. church that is also groovy with things like homosexual marriage and are into liberal S.J.W. causes. I find those guys to be about as pushy as right wing cultural warriors – (both sides turn me off).
I recently went to what I thought was a ladies fellowship, where I thought I’d get to know people better. Come to find out it was one of those dopey workbook/video programs at this woman’s house. I was so disappointed. I remember ladies prayer meetings at my old church where we had a 100 year old schoolteacher prepare a wonderful lesson each week.
Can no one read from Scripture and get the Holy Ghost to reveal a truth without paying Lifeway Corporation $9.95 a participant?
It’s so pathetic! Using one’s spiritual gifts at church has come down to which study package you so choose to order- with elder oversight I’m sure! I’ll include the men on this as well.
Daisy wrote:
One other thing I wanted to mention about this.
If so many women are leaving the faith, the church, or your particular denomination, over this sort of thing, and they are getting around the “no women allowed” rules, this ought to be a cause for gender complementarians to pause, reflect, and consider maybe their understanding of certain biblical passages about women are incorrect.
It should also perhaps be some kind of indication that your anti-women rules are pointless if women are ignoring them, pushing them aside, and working around them – by starting their own ministries or working in para-church organizations.
You have to ask yourself why is it okay for women to be in leadership or teaching roles in para-church orgs, but not in churches?
It’s a semantics game.
Like I was reading on another blog about how some Presbyterian(?) churches get around their denom’s rules by hiring people for leader roles but calling them “Directors” rather than “Preachers.”
Like the complementarian churches that allow women to preach during church services so long as the church pushes aside the heavy wooden pulpit men use while preaching and have the women preach while standing behind a floral-decorated small table.
If you’re willing to bend your gender comp rules to allow a woman to preach – so long as she does so going by certain rules – behind a feminine looking table, or so long as she’s under “male covering” (her husband is in the room) – this should be a huge tip off that your understanding of the Bible is off about women.
I cannot imagine the God of the Bible being all,
“You know, I am completely opposed to women preaching in church, except in cases if they do so while standing behind a table that is decoupaged with a pretty floral pattern.
“Then I am dandy with it. That Martha-Stewart-ish floralized table takes away all opposition I have to a woman preaching, by golly.”
Velour wrote:
Some complementarians, or comp itself, seem to regard women as being non-human.
But the Bible teaches that women are also completely human and created in God’s image.
The comps who teach women are in some fashion inferior or to be subjected to men based on an idea that a woman is a mere “derivative” of men are in total opposition to the Bible… a Bible which most of these guys claim to take literally, seriously, and at face value…
But they ignore the parts that state point blank women are created in God’s image too.
I can only infer from this habit of complementarians that they only selectively take the Bible seriously and literally – when it suits them and their sexist agenda.
Which they like to say is not sexist, because gosh, they really do think women are “equal in value” to men.
Daisy wrote:
I can name at least 5 SBC churches like this. They really believe women should be in leadership, but they won’t go far enough to stand up to the powers that be, as it might cause problems for their pensions and investments.
NJ wrote:
I wonder how much of this is really the women’s repsonsbility or how much of it they are being limited in what they can teach due to complementarianism.
It just may be that some of these women would like to write or teach more in-depth content but feel they cannot, or else certain bookstores would stop carrying their books, and churches would stop busing their lady members to see these speakers at their conferences.
Daisy wrote:
Bruce Ware teaches that women are not made in the image of God. So I guess that puts us on the level of pets.
Piper says women are made in the image of God, but we’re not allowed to talk to a man without permission, and we must ‘submit’ to anything a man tells us to do. Honestly, I think pets are treated better.
Daisy wrote:
Occasionally someone will bring up some liberal thing that will annoy me, and yes they are liberal on the position of gay marriage (but that isn’t really something that bothers me). But on the whole, I am comfortable with disagreement and I don’t know that there is a perfect church. I am NOT comfortable with being treated as lesser because I am a woman. So that is I guess my hill. Plus everybody is pretty nice and they do the helping others part of Christianity well.
I’m not trying to convert anybody, I just find it very nice to know that women are accepted as real people, and full members and leaders. Especially when I come here and read the opposite from too many. And they pray, openly, for victims of domestic violence in church. That is nice.
ishy wrote:
One of the things that drove me out of the SBC is seeing the program with EVERY male person on staff labeled ‘pastor’ and every female labeled director/secretary/anothermadeupnonpastorname. At some point, it’s just semantics. And apparently it’s also a tax dodge for the men. So annoying.
Lea wrote:
Oooo. Good point!
ishy wrote:
Yep, that’s another point of theology which real theologians need to be hammering Mr. Ware about, besides his aberrant view of the trinity and subordination of the Son nonsense. He does, indeed, hold to an errant position on male vs. female by claiming that women are a mere derivative of the image of God, rather than a direct image of the creator as men are. He puts it this way:
“Man is the image of God directly, woman is the image of God only through the man … Because man was created by God in His image first, man alone was created in a direct and unmediated fashion as the image of God, manifesting then the glory of God in man, that is male man … If male headship is rooted in the image of God itself, then it isn’t just a functional distinction of how we work out. It really does mean we are made in a different way. It may be best to understand the original creation of male and female as one in which the male was made in the image of God in a direct, unmediated and unilateral fashion, while the female was made image of God through the man and hence in a indirect, mediated and derivative fashion.” (Bruce Ware)
That is a stretch of Scripture, Mr. Ware, to support your reformed theology and to keep female believers in Christ under submission. Whoa be it to me if I ever insinuate to my dear wife that she is a derivative rather than the real thing! Good Lord, who turned these characters loose on the church?! I think I know.
ishy wrote:
Then the Southern Baptist Convention retirement annuity program is their Lord, not Christ.
Max wrote:
I can’t really argue with that, but I wish there was a way to confront a lot of these pastors with that.
I KNOW some of these pastors have to be extremely uncomfortable with where the SBC is headed, and yet they don’t say a word about it to their congregations. Some of them have big enough names that they could honestly have an impact. But there’s just silence.
I waited for my former pastor (whose name you probably know) to say something, anything, about the Calvinistas, but it never came. It’s one reason I left the SBC completely.
Max wrote:
Good question. Why is this ok? I think they all need to sit down, shut up and rethink basically everything they got wrong for a while.
@ Nancy2:
Nancy2 wrote:
these men . . . . you fear for their daughters who are being raised without the support of a Christian father who values them as persons with dignity ….. I can only imagine the hell a daughter would have to live in if she were an intelligent, resourceful person who was able to set goals and work toward them and yet, at every turn, was met with the contempt of her father and her brothers. A vicious, pitiful hatred that I think is really born out of a deep self-contempt and a need to put women down so as to build one’s male-self up as ‘superior’.
Surely, some of their daughters must survive that hell and go on to live lives that fulfill their potential as God has given them the talents to develop.
I’m thinking that a life without dignity and accomplishment is a poor trade-in for ‘protection’ in this world. What kind of ‘protection’ robs a woman of her spirit and her personhood???? None that I know of. A life surrounded by contemptuous men is no life at all.
Lea wrote:
Probably because it’s a movement run by people with narcissistic personality disorder, but sadly that means they are mostly incapable of sitting down and thinking like a rational person.
Lea wrote:
And it really is a shame because we lose out on valuable and practical insights.
Anna A wrote:
Thanks for the list Anna. Some of the best thinkers I’ve ever read were Jesuits, so I don’t have a prejudiced view of Catholic intellectuals at all. All the better to read some (Catholics) who happen to be women.
Daisy wrote:
I’m reminded by an old essay by Stephen J Gould regarding the history of science. It was about some Victorian-era female author who actually did some solid research, but is forgotten today because the conventions of Victorian society limited her to publication in popular (not academic) channels, with a mandatory style of lightweight “saccharine sentimentalism” filled with fluffy Christianity Lite references.
ishy wrote:
While New Calvinist leaders (e.g. Al Mohler) have done a number on the SBC in recent years by manipulating and intimidating SBC executives, I fault pastors at 45,000+ churches for not having “family talks” along the way to inform their congregations about on-going Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America. The pew ought to at least have a chance to be willingly ignorant regarding the takeover of their denomination. At present, most are simply uninformed or misinformed about this mess. The deafening silence of so many pastors can be attributed to (1) a genuine desire to maintain unity in the midst of theological diversity, (2) a genuine desire to protect the Cooperative Program funding for missions, and/or (3) a selfish desire to protect their retirement funds.
Muff Potter wrote:
It’s like people put their brain in a little box and don’t allow it to stray because they are afraid they might form a different opinion! It’s so strange.
Max wrote:
Because the “young ladies” did not exist.
Remember that book on Totalism and “The Dispensing of Existence”?
If it has not been mentioned yet, Dr. Sarah Sumner’s book, Men and Women in the Church, is an excellent book. Dr. Sumner states that neither the term complementarian or egalitarian is a term that describes her–best to read her first hand as to why. I used her book as a resource for a several part sermon series I preached in a church that would have, at the time, been progressing from a strict complementarian to a more egalitarian biblical view. Unfortunately, though I thought the sermons were well received, a several year later change in leadership at the pastoral and elder level shifted the church, at least at the leadership level, back firmly into the hard-core complementarian camp.
This is the church from which I was functionally excommunicated after the leadership change. How can two walk together except they be in agreement?
siteseer wrote:
Sometimes not even milk, just cotton candy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e35FSyv2XxI
@ Cousin of Eutychus:
I’m reading amazon comments on her book and came across this from the author regarding submit/sacrifice/etc:
I’ll think about that one. I’m finding the reviews interesting in general. Also someone thought she was too hard on Grudem and Piper so that’s a plus, ha!
Interestingly, some of reviewers refer to her thinking as ‘fuzzy’ for refusing to put herself in a camp (egal/comp) as it were. Apparently it’s not allowed to just state your views.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
No group – especially a church – has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. Next thing you know, the New Calvinists will try to subordinate Jesus (oh, wait a minute …)
ishy wrote:
Cats won’t put up with that kind of silliness.
Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
ha! that was my thought to. [“Women and Cats will do as they please and Men and Dogs should relax and get used to the idea”]
Lea wrote:
Except in New Calvinist churches! I envision a mass exodus of women and cats from the reformed movement sooner rather than later. The neoCals are just getting too strange for superior intellects to put up with.
Max wrote:
Ooh, just picture it! All the women and cats rising from the pews, strolling down the aisle and out the door…
Women’s ministries in the SBC where I lived used to be strong, doctrinal, in depth Bible study.
Now it is drivel, at least here. Fill in the blank “what do you do wrong and why don’t you feel more guilty for it” workbooks are not ministry nor Bible study.
Bah! Walked away and not looking back.
I think Dr. Sumner’s emphasis on mutual submission and sacrifice is what resonated with me most–that a husband and father would sacrifice with delight to see his wife and daughters flourishing, using all the gifts and talents available to them.
The leadership of a church, male and female, ought to work toward that goal as well–a fully functional body with joy as its mark.
@ Friend:
There will be great rejoicing in the heavenly realm!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That’s so true.
When I bagged a copperhead with a clean head shot, my husband couldn’t resist skinning the snake and taking the skin to the man at church. Several men gathered ’round and asked my hubby where he bagged the snake. My husband said, I didn’t bag it – my wife did. There was total silence. You could see the disgust and disdain on most of the faces.
I think it made them uncomfortable because Jesus knew how to deal with vipers too.
Max wrote:
Max, there are a lot of pastors who don’t know what’s going on, especially small church pastors.
siteseer wrote:
TBH, I’d much rather be involved in youth ministry than women’s ministry. I learn more, and it’s more fun!
Question: What is the criteria for what would be considered a healthy church? [We have lists of the descent into what is unhealthy – how about what to look for positively.]
– both genders functioning equally in their gifts of the Holy Spirit as members of the Body of Christ
– no binding covenants required for participants
– predators (clearly unlawful folks) are not running lose and/or in leadership
– critical thinking encouraged
?
Daisy wrote:
good observation!
ishy wrote:
I’m with ya, the tenor of women’s ministry smacks of “separate but equal” nonsense.
Velour wrote:
Amen!
JYJames wrote:
“God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased Him.” (1 Cor 12:18)
JYJames wrote:
“This is the new contract I will make with them: I will inscribe my laws upon their hearts, so that they shall want to honor me; then they shall truly be my people and I will be their God.” (Jeremiah 31:33)
JYJames wrote:
“I urge you to watch out for those who create divisions and sinful enticements that oppose the teaching you have learned. Stay away from them, because such people are not serving the Messiah our Lord, but their own desires. By their smooth talk and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.” (Romans 16:17-18)
JYJames wrote:
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 2:5)
NJ wrote:
You’re looking at the wrong seminaries. Says the lady pastor with an MDiv from Duke. 🙂
Velour wrote:
Agree!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I agree. The inability of the regressives to see past people’s private parts is exhausting. I remember all the tortured ways certain professors at a certain seminary would use to try and avoid Galatians…
Nancy2 wrote:
I suppose there are some pastors who are not up to speed on state-of-the-SBC, but pastors talk to each other and the word is spreading. If there remains any not aware of SBC’s dilemma soon, they are well off the beaten path. But, perhaps, they are just focused on the mission God called them to and will not be distracted from preaching the Gospel while a bunch of SBC elites play silly games.
Just an aside: I left a “gospel-centered” PCA church, started going to a UMC, and am now serving in the kids’ ministry like I was before. The Methodist church mixes the genders in class and the PCA didn’t, and the difference in behavior is remarkable. Maybe we really are meant to be together in Christ.
Stan wrote:
I wish the “gospel-centered” New Calvinists would leave the SBC and join the like-minded PCA. It seems like it would be a much easier row to hoe than dealing with all the weeping and gnashing of teeth as they take over the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America. But, of course, they need SBC’s resources for future endeavors: seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, thousands of church buildings, etc. It matters not to them that these things were purchased by the tithes and offerings of millions of SBC non-Calvinists over the years.
Velour wrote:
I wish a multitude of decent men in SBC would rise up and kick some New Calvinist behinds out of the denomination. Their belief and practice, as it pertains to women believers, is not only offensive to decent men but to Holy God.
Stan wrote:
I am noticing the same thing in the UMC church I am now attending. The pastor is a woman, her husband is a retired pastor and clearly very supportive of her, and in Sunday School everyone takes turns leading. There’s a humility and a servant’s heart at this church that I didn’t really see at the Baptist churches I attended in the past 10 years or so, and a respect for different gifts that I don’t know that I’ve ever seen at a church.
Nancy2 wrote:
That can mean more than one thing… I think a lot of big churches have small pastors. 🙁
Someone was asking about female theologians/writers with a bit more meat:
Barbara Brown Taylor
Kathryn Tanner ‘Christ the Key’
Amy-Jill Levine (she is an Orthodox Jew who has translated the New Testament {probably is a bit different than the ESV!} and written several books about Jesus as a Jew)
Ellen F Davis ‘Scripture, Culture & Agriculture’
In our small country church, ladies bible study was led by the pastor up until my husband- who told them they can lead it themselves – most of them had been walking with the Lord twice as long as he had been alive!
I’m with the ladies who don’t get anything out of women’s ministries. But of course the very first one I attended had Carolyn Mahaney (and then other pastors’ wives) heading it. Now THERE’s a model of femininity I can’t relate to. Dressing up all the time, being a homemaker, submitting to your husband, yada yada yada. Then I couldn’t really relate to some of the older singles groups because everyone wanted to hear about how to have a successful relationship with the opposite sex and I could care less. Guess I’ve never fit into a mold, and I despise that the church tries to do that with women.
Max wrote:
Max, that will preach!
Nancy2 wrote:
In my tribe (Menominees of North Eastern Wisconsin) some of the best hunters in times past were women. They are celebrated in song and oral tradition to this day.
Christiane wrote:
It’s brutally hard. Especially when you are naturally independent and bent on questioning everything already. I remember a few yelling matches with my Dad. I was the brave one.
I love my Dad and in many ways he is and tried to be a good Dad, but his views on women are warped and I often wonder what my life could’ve been like if I had been raised without those toxic teachings, rather than finally trying to struggle free at it all now in my late 20s. I married the gentlest, kindest man I’ve ever known, who sees me fully as an equal and partner in his life, who loves me tenderly and serves me so sweetly and I still cannot believe what sweet gift i was given in him. Being loved in such a way is really helping me to heal.
I love my brother, and he’s very sweet and gentle natured, but he too is continuing in my Dad’s footsteps just in a nicer way.
I loath these twisted teachings.
PEARL wrote:
Or maybe they were raised in the Church with Signs Following….
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF9q_q89ZmE
This is all very good news.
But I can’t help but feel an undercurrent of a requirement that women be led by men in order to be qualified. An undercurrent that women are to be dependent on men, that it is the men’s job to mentor the women and cultivate their gifts. Women are to be passive.
An undercurrent that in church culture, to some degree, there is a prerequisite for highly qualified women to assume a kind of ingenue personna, a sort of damsel in distress needing the chivalrous knight in shining armor to rescue her from her uncultivatedness. To steward her into her potential, and to thereafter assume responsibility for the woman — to lead the woman.
(afterall, a man is only being biblical if he is leading, and a woman is only being biblical if she is being led)
i’m sure i’m repeating myself here.
The fact is women, just like men, take the initiative to cultivate their gifts, talents, and abilities through the investment of hard work and persistence. They need no man to do this for them. They can do it themselves (like any human being) and have done it themselves. They are waiting for no man to unlock their potential.
What they’re waiting for is for male christian leaders, the keymasters and the gatekeepers guarding the doors of opportunity to get out of the way & unlock them.
i can’t help but feel that in christian church culture women are not quite human. Some other species that will always be suspect & not fully trusted.
The articles quoted in this post are really great — i just feel like in a way christian women are required to sell themselves short — to first assume the subhuman status ascribed to them by christian culture, and then & only then to ask for any morsel, any tidbit, of opportunity and responsibility.
again, this is all good news… latent, but good news. but gah dang, christian culture is so retarded.
(i’m sure i took 3 passes to make my point — not my succinct best tonight)
@ elastigirl:
when I think about our pioneer women forebears, how strong they were in the face of what needed to be done, I don’t see weak, passive, helpless creatures at all . . . .
I don’t think the neo-Cal patriarchal model of womanhood fits our American heritage of strong, self-reliant women.
Somewhere in our history, the men in the South and West who survived the Civil War got confused mixing those frail beautiful Southern belles with frontier saloon girls and Civil War camp followers, and came up with an alternate model of womanly perfection that combines the worst of each ‘type’ to form the neo-Cal patriarchal ideal, a man-ufactured amalgam of traits whose sole purpose is to pander to the male ego.
And women make good watch-bloggers too. Why is it that Christianity Today, World magazine, and Christian Post lag behind in their investigative reporting?
elastigirl wrote:
When what they really need is someone to stop preventing them from, to stop discouraging it.
elastigirl wrote:
It is only some parts of christian culture, but it is getting more widespread.
I reiterate, I would never have gravitated towards a ‘liberal’ church, but I am finding it very freeing to know that women are not discouraged, are treated as equal. I think we need to look outside the box sometimes of the denomination we grew up in or liberal or conservative or evangelical or what have you, and just open up. I was looking at the reviews for a book recommended above and it struck me how much people want to put the author in the box of ‘egalitarian’ and then make that mean all the things they don’t like so they can ignore her. They can’t look beyond a few things. There are a number of websites where I feel the authors are getting so many things right, and they still can’t look beyond the comp designation or label. Because to do that would be dangerous. There be dragons.
And I’m not saying that it’s a panacea to do so, but it’s interesting and frustrating to watch.
Christiane wrote:
I don’t think this is a southern thing (or a western thing). I think this is a weird subset of church thing.
While to some extent everybody is entitled to their own opinion, nobody is entitled to their own made up fallacies and stereotypes.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheryl-st-germain/southern-women-myths-stereotypes_b_4999992.html
Velour wrote:
I’ve been “preaching” this stuff for 10 years, but mostly to empty pews.
Janey wrote:
Money
Power – Profit – Prestige
@ Former CLCer:
“Guess I’ve never fit into a mold, and I despise that the church tries to do that with women.”
++++++++++
no one does. church culture is simply too stupid to realize this. and i’m afraid many christians are too brainwashed to realize this about themselves.
christian culture, especially church, has no imagination. they simply blindly do what other churches are doing. like franchises copying what other franchises are doing. like nervous adolescents copying what the ‘cool kids’ are doing so they can be viable.
as to why there’s no imagination, it’s just to dang frightening.
as to why that is, an interesting conversation awaits.
elastigirl wrote:
This is so true. No one fits in a mold. We are all individuals, with mix of characteristics and personality traits and strengths and weaknesses. Lets start looking at people for who they are, not who we think they ought to be.
elastigirl wrote:
I think it’s probably due to pride more than lack of imagination. If they do church the “right” way, then that makes them better than Christians who don’t.
Nevermind that nothing in that has anything to do with Christ!
@ Lea:
“how much people want to put the author in the box of ‘egalitarian’ and then make that mean all the things they don’t like so they can ignore her. They can’t look beyond a few things.”
++++++++++++
they are stupid. it’s my go-to word yesterday & today (for good reason). but really, is there any better word?
Christian #1: “We have found a liberal, might we burn her?”
Christian Crow: “Burn her! Burn!”
Christian With Influence: “How do you know she is a liberal?”
Christian #2: “She looks like one.”
and even brilliant, deep thinkers can be stupid. the kindest, big-hearted, most wonderful people in the world can be stupid.
@ ishy:
“I think it’s probably due to pride more than lack of imagination. If they do church the “right” way, then that makes them better than Christians who don’t.”
++++++++++
oh, god (litle g), yes. like the church who now has “A Gospel-Centered Church” emblazoned on it’s signage, website, church bulletins, everywhere. Because now they’re members of the members only elite ‘Gospel-Centered’ church club.
crimany, the church has been around for 45 years, but apparently no one there understood the word ‘gospel’ until they changed their sign. nor does any other church in town, you see, because ‘they don’t have a sign like ours.’
it’s just so stupid. such morons.
but, I believe, at the root of this pride thing and lack of imagination is a state of being very frightened. loaded with insecurity. in themselves, and with God.
elastigirl wrote:
This is what I think when I hear things like the guy who recommended people not read Ruth Tuckers book, because she thought Comp contributed. What are they afraid of? That someone might read something and have an unapproved thought.
I am 61 years old and read this article with great sadness! I do not understand why we need to pay money to buy books and go to conferences and think that is the way to find “our” way in serving our Lord. I was taught ,in the early 70s when I became a believer in the Jesus Freak movement that if I avoided reading peoples ideas of the Bible via their books, if I simply humbled myself, read Gods Word, obeyed and prayed daily I would mature to serve others as Christ did and I would find real joy and satisfaction. In my opinion the institutional church has become a den of thieves selling a false Gospel that says Gods Spirit and Word are not enough you need ME, MY BOOK to really understand and no one ever talks about the Scriptures that says we need no one but the Holy Ghost to teach us. Please people just grow up , read your Bibles serve others pray and sing this little song that doesn’t seem to be good enough for Sunday school any longer… Read your Bible pray every day and you’ll grow grow grow, don’t read your Bible or pray every day and you’ll shrink shrink shrink…..
@ Lea:
elastigirl wrote: “To steward her into her potential, and to thereafter assume responsibility for the woman — to lead the woman.”
Lea wrote: “When what they really need is someone to stop preventing them from, to stop discouraging it.”
++++++++++++++
& we can’t have freedom, can we. there’s too much for the robber barons (& those who blindly copy them) to lose. too frightening a prospect.
@ Donna:
“In my opinion the institutional church has become a den of thieves selling a false Gospel that says Gods Spirit and Word are not enough you need ME, MY BOOK to really understand”
+++++++++++++++++++
the state of the union when christians take themselves so seriously.
(mingled with “ooooh, money!”)
(…and with “ahhhh, so this is what power feels like!)
Donna wrote:
“I need to make back the $210,000 I paid Result Source to juice it onto the best-seller lists!”
@ elastigirl:
“Stupidity is like hydrogen; it’s the basic building block of the Universe.”
— Frank Zappa (though Harlan Ellison also claims credit)
Donna wrote:
Amen! The Holy Spirit was given to believers to lead them into all Truth. The teachings and traditions of men are a mixture of truth, half-truth, and lies. If you use your intellect alone to sort through the maze, you’ll come up short. The Holy Spirit never fails to deliver the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. When we substitute conferences and books of Christian celebrities for a disciplined study of Scripture and prayer for the Holy Spirit to lead us through it, we are opening ourselves up to potential error that could put us off-track for years.
@ Donna:
You write…
“ In my opinion the institutional church has become a den of thieves
selling a false Gospel that says Gods Spirit and Word are NOT enough
you need ME, MY BOOK to really understand and
NO one ever talks about the Scriptures that says
**we need NO one but the Holy Ghost to teach us.**”
Much agreement – “…the institutional church has become a den of thieves…”
Yes – WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Servants…
WE, His sons, “we need NO one but the Holy Ghost to **TEACH us.**”
Yes – Jesus taught **His Disciples** God, The Holy Ghost, and Jesus, will TEACH WE.
John 6:45 NKJV
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall ALL be TAUGHT by God.
Therefore everyone who has heard and *LEARNED from the Father** comes to Me.
John 14:26 NKJV
But the Helper, **The Holy Spirit,** whom the Father will send in My name,
He will TEACH you ALL things…
Deuteronomy 4:36 KJV
Out of heaven he made thee to *Hear His Voice,*
that *He might INSTRUCT thee:*
Psalms 32:8 KJV
I will instruct thee and *TEACH thee *
in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
These “How To’s” are NOT talked about much in the 501 c 3, IRS Corporations. 🙂
————
And, Jesus taught **His Disciples** you have “ONE” TEACHER. Mat 23:8 NKJV
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Mat 23:8 NKJV
But you, (**His Disciples**)
do NOT be called ‘Rabbi’; (Rabbi – a Title useed to “honor” teachers.)
for ‘ONE” is your TEACHER, the Christ, and you are ALL brethren.
Why isn’t what Jesus said important?
————
And, John, the Apostle, one of **His Disciples** taught “ye need NO man TEACH you.”
1 John 2:20 KJV
Ye have an *unction from the Holy One, and ye *know ALL things.
*unction = anointing. *know = perceive, discern, discover.
1 John 2:26-27 KJV
These things have I written unto you concerning them that “seduce you.”
But the anointing which ye have received of him **abideth in you,**
and **ye need NOT that any man TEACH you:**
but as the same anointing TEACHES you of ALL things…
———-
When you believe the lie you start to die….
I Fear a Cage wrote:
I fear for the daughters at my ex-church (Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley) who are taught the same Complmentarian nonsense along with orders to “obey”.
I fear for all that they’ve lost (along with being sent to a third-rate college like John MacArthur’s The Master’s College where the indoctrination was compounded).
It was creepy to watch my ex-senior pastor order his two college-aged daughters around, not showing them an iota of respect.
P.S. I’m not surprised that all of the “big names” in Comp teachings like Doug Philips and Bill Gothard have been accused of sex crimes and sued.
@ Donna:
Yes – And – WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Ekklesia, His Body, His Servants…
And, “we need NO one but The Holy Ghost, and Jesus, and The Father, to **Lead us.**
In Rom 8:14 KJV, Paul taught those “led” by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
NOT those “led” by man. Mere Fallible Humans.
Rom 8:14 KJV For ALL who are being **led by the Spirit of God,** these are sons of God.
Jesus taught **His Disciples** there is “ONE” Leader – Go figure… 🙂
And, Jesus taught **His Disciples** NOT to be called “Leaders.”
And, His Disciples must have believed Jesus… Because…
In the Bible, NOT one of **His Disciples** called them self “Leader.”
Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Humble – a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance.
Know many, who say they are “Leaders,” “church leaders, who are humble?
With, “a modest or low estimate of their own importance?”
Mat 23:10-12 – The Message
And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
**Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a servant.**
If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.
Why isn’t what Jesus said important?
If someone calls them self “leader?”
church leader? spiritual leader? christian leader?
Allows others to call them “leader?”
church leader? spiritual leader? christian leader?
Are they one of **His Disciples?**
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
If not now? – When?
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
We have just been enjoying the Knowledge Network series: The Ascent of Woman.
It is a historical look at the influence and impact of women in/on history. There are names and events that one has never heard about in a history class! It can be viewed on the internet. Enjoy!!
“In this acclaimed four-part documentary series, Dr. Amanda Foreman charts the changing role of women from the dawn of civilization to the modern day. Travelling around the world, the historian/biographer uncovers stories of extraordinary women who created their own routes to power, examines the uneven trajectory of women’s status in both the Eastern and Western worlds, and looks at the role of women in revolutions that have transformed the modern world, from political uprisings to reproductive rights.”
https://www.knowledge.ca/program/ascent-woman
Hmmm?
In the Bible…
Jesus teaches **His Disciples** there is “ONE” Teacher – Jesus.
And, **His Disciples** are NOT to be called Rabbi. = Teacher.
In the Bible…
Jesus teaches **His Disciples** there is “ONE” Leader – Jesus.
And, **His Disciples** are NOT to be called Leader.
But, in “Today’s Corrupt Religious System.”
the Institutional church… The 501 c 3 IRS Corporation church…
We can find Men, who “Ignore” Jesus, who call them self TEACHER…
Who say, ‘Women should NOT be teachers.”
We can find Men, who “Ignore” Jesus, who call them self LEADER…
Who say, “Women should NOT be leaders.”
Was wondering…
Why do women want to “Ignore” Jesus, and be known aa leaders?
Why do other women want women to “Ignore” Jesus, and be known as leaders?
Why do women want to “Ignore” Jesus, and be known as teachers?
Why do other women want women to “Ignore” Jesus, and be known as teachers?
In, “Today’s Corrupt Religious System?”
In, Today’s Institutional church? That has become a den of thieves?
In, the 501 c 3, IRS Corporation church?
———-
Isn’t this kinda like a group of Italian wives in Brooklyn NY, complaining…
“What’s with all these “God Fathers?”
“Sheesh – It’s always “the men” being the “Head” of crime families?”
“Women should be able to “Lead” crime families too.”
🙂 🙂 🙂
And, NOT one of **His Disciples** called them self leader…
ALL **His Disciples** called themselves “Servants.”
A. Amos Love wrote:
Who says women want to ignore Jesus?
Women just want these oppressive churches to stop crushing them. If these churches stopped crushing people, maybe men, women, and children alike could see Jesus more clearly.
If the role of leader or teacher exists in the church, some women will want to lead and teach, and they will eventually tire of being told that specific internal organs disqualify them. They will tire all the more quickly if the men who appoint and anoint themselves are preening, corrupt predators who proclaim themselves above the law.
If the role of leader or teacher is biblically false, then neither men nor women should hold it.
A. Amos Love wrote:
Most of us don’t want to be leaders. We simply want to be full, participating members of the Body — instead of unnecessary accessories to be ignored and excluded.
@ Friend:
spot on:
one word: driscoll
I have posted a new update on the open discussion thread. Thank you for your continuing prayer and help.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-10/#comment-296682
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
Oh jeez. Another thread hijacked by one-track-Amos. Yawn.
@ Max:
Beautiful. Thanks.
More indications of the real vs. fake Body of Christ?
@ Janey:
“Why is it that Christianity Today, World magazine, and Christian Post lag behind in their investigative reporting?”
++++++++++++++++++++
christian everything lags far behind standards of quality & integrity, the cutting edge & whatever successful thing its secular counterparts are doing in all categories.
to be christian (person, entity, business, product, service) is like a crazy hopscotch (where if you step on a line you’re out) — so many lines, all with the word “biblical” and each stemming from a different christian source, criss-crossing every which way. If you step on one of them you offend, alienate, & anger entire subgroups and invite castigation, protest, & boycott.
so much easier, less problematic, and better for business to stand in a safe small spot along with all your friends, and not move from there until you have no choice but to gingerly venture out.
dang, Ann Rice says it so well: “I remain committed to Christ as always but not to being “Christian” or to being part of Christianity. It’s simply impossible for me to “belong” to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group.”
very agitated today about this silly religion of mine. which has been hijacked…
jesus & me, we’re going camping for a bit. anyone wanna come?
JYJames wrote:
As we study the genuine more, the counterfeit gets easier to spot.
Max wrote:
Brilliant. A worthy quest.
elastigirl wrote:
Fortunately God Himself is ahead of the game. So stay close to Christ.
elastigirl wrote:
This is an excellent summary. Every new book and sermon and radio program adds another random line to this crazy quilt full of conflicting ideas and cognitive dissonance.
elastigirl wrote:
That’s exactly what I need.
@ JYJames:
no doubt this is true.
amazing how the human + religion creates such mess & chaos. and if i hear ‘it’s relationship not religion’ one more time my dinner goes on your head.
@ elastigirl:
not yours, JYJAMES… christian joe & mary schmoe out there, who are primed to reply with such things when you squeeze their christian tummies.
@ elastigirl:
Ok. Got your drift.
@ siteseer:
i’ll bring firewood, camping stove, tea kettle, tea, coffee, chocolate, kahlua, wine, china cups, glass wine glasses, steaks in marinade in ziplock bags, chicken in marinade in ziplock bags, baked beans, a pot, cream of wheat,… pictionary, balderdash, several decks of cards, books,….a few hot water bottles for nighttime to share with whoever is nicest to me….
@ JYJames:
come camping with us!
@ elastigirl:
Rain check. However, thanks guys. Nice to be included.
Velour wrote:
Amen to this. I say this as a man and this reminded me of something one of my favourite has said – it is worth quoting in full.
<<No husband, pastor, or other church leader has more authority than Christ. God has called women to ministry as surely as He called men. And when men tell women that they cannot minister, women must look them in the eye and say "You will not rob me of my liberty in Christ, and of the ministry to which He has called me." We do not say that women are free to create trouble in any church. Not even men are free to do this. But women are free to do what God has called them to do, and they are free to leave any church and any church leader who refuses to grant them full privilege in Christ to be and do everything that is available to men. Women, "It was for freedom that Christ set you free. Therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of bondage," (Gal. 5:1). You have things to do for God; gifts from God to give to other people; leadership to exercise in Christ's name. You are obligated by the cost of Christ's blood, to reject the shackles men try to throw on you. If you must keep walking out of churches then you must keep walking out. You simply must not tolerate your previous bondage any longer. Women, if you are presently living under bondage to men whose human laws (based on illegitimate interpretation of a couple of scriptures) steal your spiritual freedom, honor the blood of Jesus and shake off those chains, and walk away. Because of the stranglehold they have on the church, men may succeed in disallowing you to take your rightful place in the church; you may never find a place where you can truly exercise your freedom fully. But one thing you can do. You can simply refuse to knuckle under to human authority any longer. You can take a stand for your freedom and equality with men. You can search for a church where you are treated with dignity and respect for what God would do through you. If you never find such a church, God will deal ultimately with His churches and leaders. But God will bless you richly for your determination to honor the price at which Christ purchased your liberty. (Source: Darwin Chandler. The Royal Law of Liberty: Living in Freedom Under Christ's Law of Love (Kindle Locations 2979-2991). Kindle Edition.
elastigirl wrote:
I’m in.
@ ZechZav:
Love, love, love the quote!@ Bridget:
May I come, too?
I’ll bring kerosene lanterns and basic defensive items. I can make homemade biscuits in a skillet over an open fire!
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
now, now, ‘Amos’ is just one of a group who have had it with the ‘institutional’ Church;
preferring instead to seek the Lord in places and with people who are ‘free’ from coping with communities of faith where sinners create troubles and make the lives of other members miserable ……
I can understand this, except for one thing:
we were told by Our Lord that there would be problems and divisions and imperfections, but that He would send us the Holy Spirit to help us get through this journey and He would send us His peace in the midst of the turmoil. The Church militant is filled with sinners and troubled people ….. and also with those who carry withing themselves the peace of Christ, and help the troubled to bear their burdens. Not perfect enough for some Christians? I know. Especially when there has been injury to them from being in a church setting. I am no one’s judge as to how they seek the Lord. And if they can be with Christ at the side of lake, or in the forest, or in the mountains, where there is quiet and solitude, then I cannot fault that. But if they are refreshed, maybe they will someday come back and help to bear the burdens of those who could not go into the quiet. And if that is a possibility, then these people did in fact meet with Our Lord in the quiet. And they were strengthened to help others and to serve Him again.
@ Nancy2:
of course! hunting supplies, too? i’m an adventurous eater… i’d be open to Rattlesnake Surprise.
@ Bridget:
could you bring interesting cheese?
elastigirl wrote:
I’ve eaten rattlesnake. I don’t recommend it. Fish, otoh, is always good.
@ ZechZav:
Love this!
elastigirl wrote:
I’m in.
@ Christiane:
I want to be careful here about replying over-zealously either to things you didn’t say/intend, or to things that you said in a certain context and that don’t represent everything you know and believe. But I think there are some important things that must be stated here.
Point 1 of 3: leaving institutional church
Lesley and I are “nones”. It so happens that we gather most Sunday mornings with a group that meets locally, in order to sing together and give the Lord the glory due his Name. We have one or two good friends in that group whose company we find fulfilling and constructive (we believe that’s mutual, too) but we are not “members” of the group in any formal sense. We are members together only with those who call Jesus Lord and who have set the course of their lives to follow him.
Point 2 of 3: TO, not FROM
We haven’t left the institutional church so we can be free of bothersome communities. Quite the reverse: we’ve left the institutional church in search of a faith community. You might say that we’ve left the Church Recumbant in search of the Church Militant. We have found some who are hungry, not for “the perfect church”, but for God, in whatever setting. They don’t always tell us what we want to hear, and half of them aren’t actually Christians yet. (As God said to Paul in Corinth: I have many people in this city – before the Corinthian church was widely established.)
Point 3 of 3: seeking Christ in quiet and solitude
We are seeking Christ among the unemployed, the working poor, and the struggling small businesses of the region. Not only that, but as our conviction is that his kingship is still good news to them, we’re working to do this in such a way that it actually creates decent jobs locally. We’ve not come across any nearby groups of Christians who are into job creation and we continue to battle forwards in the face of apathy and hostility from Christians who think (whatever they protest to the contrary) that God’s presence is powerless to manifest outwith an act of religious worship.
It would be easy, at one level, to give up, “join a church”, and water down our vision until it becomes gentle, safe and non-threatening to middle Scotland. The problem with that option is that the bond-servant of Christ Jesus cannot escape his duty that easily.
republican mother wrote:
Ha ha! Brilliant.
elastigirl wrote:
Absolutely! And whatever other odds and ends and sundries are helpful.
Daisy wrote:
I think these authors, like Oprah, have discovered a robust market for light and fluffy spiritual stuff or drop-the-hammer patriarchal stuff. Can you imagine Sarah Young or Debi Pearl actually coming up with theologically orthodox and in-depth material that would stand the test of time?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Great comment, a lot to think about there
thanks, NICK
LOL… Agreed, Max. I know this will probably sound elitist, but I’m beginning to suspect we really are looking at some inferior intellects, in spite of all their “book larnin”. I’m sure fear is a significant factor as well.
Darcyjo wrote:
*grin* You’re probably on to something there.
Max wrote:
No, please. The PCA already has enough problems without more YRR appearing in the ranks.
NJ wrote:
The Calvinistas don’t allow study of books outside their circle. This promotes thinking, and thinking is bad. So, no real need for an intellect at all. You must sign the contract to accept and obey.
@ Friend:
Hi Friend
“Who says women want to ignore Jesus?”
It’s NOT just Women… Men “Ignore” Jesus often.
Hey – I was ordained, in “Leadership,” and I “Ignored” Jesus.
I just listened to my “pastor/leaders,” who said I should be a “Leader.”
How could I argue with such wisdom, coming from such spiritual men? 🙂
And, I began reading ALL the books on “leadership.” There are lots of them. 🙂
But, NOT many books on “Servantship.” – Yes?
And, Jesus, as man, Humbled Himself, Made Himself of NO reputation…
And took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7
Then, one day, I was confronted with the fact…
Jesus, taught **His Disciples** NOT to be called “leader.”
And when I searched the scriptures I found…
NOT one of **His Disciples** called them self “leader.” Hmmm?
Hmmm? The question for me became…
Did I want to be, ”one of **His Disciples?” And be ”His Servant?”
Or – Did I want to be known as a “leader?” And have people Follow me?
In the early 90’s, I officially left, “Today’s Religious System”
To Follow The “ONE” Leader…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Lea wrote:
You betcha’ it is! And Lake Michigan perch was the best!
I say was, cuz’ they ain’t all that safe anymore on account of the mercury levels these daze.
Friend wrote:
Me Too…
I’d like “oppressive churches to stop crushing” ** Women** also.
I’d like “oppressive churches to stop crushing” **Men** too.
That’s why I challenge “Today’s Corrupt Religious System.”
And, let people know that “The Religious System” **people pay for** is “Corrupt.”
Corrupt – dictionary
1- showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
2- in a state of decay; rotten or putrid.
3- debased or made unreliable by errors or alterations.
I was in Bondage to “The Religious System” for many years… 🙁
IMO – “oppressive churches” ain’t-a-gonna STOP being “oppressive.”
My first recommedation NOW, is to flee, run for your life…
If your fellowship is “oppressive?”
Jesus, did NOT re-form, or change “The Oppressive Religious System” of His day.
He left it.
And took a bunch of **His Disciples** with Him.
But, you really have to ask Jesus if you are to “Leave?” And when? Or stay?
John 10:27 – My Sheep – Hear My Voice – and – Follow Me.
John 6:45 – It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall ALL be TAUGHT by God.
Luke 6:46 – But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and NOT do the things which I say?
My desire is to see Women, and Men, get **IT** for themselves, from…
The “ONE” Teacher…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Friend wrote:
Yes – Totally agree
ishy wrote:
“Thinking leads to Doubt.
Doubt leads to Questioning.
Questioning leads to Heresy.
Heresy demands Retribution.
Blessed is the mind too small for Doubt.”
— Warhammer 40K
Nancy2 wrote:
Hi Nancy2
I understand…
Where I live in “The body of Christ” – NOT “the Corrupt Religious System” – the gender issue does NOT exist. Roles do not exist. “Who” is the leader does NOT exist. WE, His Sheep, His Followers, desire Jesus to be The “ONE” Leader.
“Disciples of Christ” do NOT exercise, or assume authority over another “Disciple of Christ.”(Mark 10:42) In Christ, WE, **His Disciples** are “ONE.” “The Church” is “the body” of Christ. People, NOT a building, an organization, an institution or a corporation. Keeping to “The Traditions of men” is not the point.
Where I live in “The body of Christ” it’s about – Who knows Jesus? Who is Hearing “His Voice?” Who has a living Christ within? Who has the Spirit of God dwelling in them? Who has been taught by God? Who has a revelation from God? Who is exhibiting “the Fruit of the Spirit?” Who is moving in the “Gifts of the Spirit?” Male or Female.
This is what’s important.
ALL can “hear from God.”
ALL can, and are expected to, participate.
ALL can have the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, living in them.
1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? When ye come together,
**every one of you**
hath a psalm, **hath a doctrine,** (Teaching –
hath a tongue, **hath a revelation,** hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
It’s NOT about “Which Gender” does the teaching… But…
“Who” has a revelation from God?
Male or Female?
———-
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
NJ wrote:
You don’t have to worry. They are about to capture all the SBC stuff (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, gobs of churches) … they won’t bail out now.
JYJames wrote:
Your spiritual life depends on it!
@ Max:
No, but all the non-Calvinists eventually might–at least those with no pensions dependent on continued membership.
ishy wrote:
This is only somewhat related, but I remember listening to Jordan Cooper in one of his podcasts describe being a student at a very conservative, confessional Reformed college or seminary, can’t remember which. (A lot of the student body was from the RPCNA and OPC.) One of the biggest factors in his move to Lutheranism was the complete lack of patristic studies as a separate discipline in the Reformed world of higher education, at least in the States. I’m not even talking about the partially ahistorical YRR movement, I’m talking old school Calvinism here. I was a bit shocked when I heard that, given Calvin’s own research and his theological dependence on Augustine, yet it explains a lot in larger Reformed history, not to mention things like the current ESS debate in (mostly) Reformed Baptist quarters. It’s not so much that people are literally not allowed to study outside of Reformed sources, as they’re not encouraged to, and areas like patristics have not really been a priority. Theological tribalism is also a factor, I’m sure, as it is in every wing of Christianity.
I guess another way of putting it is once you’ve become convinced we’ve got The Best Theological System (TM), there is not much need to interact with other systems or critically evaluate one’s own.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Hi Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist
Sorry that I caused you to “Yawn.”
Was wondering…
Why are you NOT happy with my comments… 🙂
I’ve always enjoyed your comments…
And, I always enjoy seeing your name… 🙂
Anything in particular, which was written, that you dislike?
Anything in particular, which was written, that you do NOT agree with?
Anything in particular, which was written, that would lead someone astray?
That would lead someone away from Jesus?
Maybe I missed it? And you can help?
Anything in particular, which was written, that you believe is NOT in the Bible?
Or, anything you believe is “Screwy-Louie?
Would you like to have a conversation about it?
Or – A debate?
Or…
Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
Some of my favorites among contemporary scholars are Amy-Jill Levine, Fleming Rutledge, Barbara Brown Taylor and Phyllis Tickle. I also recommend Sister Carol Perry’s weekly Bible studies at Marble Collegiate Church in NYC. Videos of her classes are posted on the church website: http://www.marblechurch.org/welcome/calendar/events/advent/3010/bible-study-with-sister-carol-perry
republican mother wrote:
“When coin in Lifeway’s coffer rings…”
@ A. Amos Love:
How bout’ some religious tolerance for those who don’t believe as you believe?
Muff Potter wrote:
um, still trying to sort out exactly what Amos believes …. I know I don’t get the ‘lingo’ very well , so that is likely a big part of my not understanding
NJ wrote:
The Neo-Cals love to navel gaze – just not at their own navels.
Muff
How bout’ some religious tolerance for those who don’t believe as you believe?
Are you suggesting that I am “intolerant” of “those who don’t believe as I believe?”
Maybe you could ask a different question, to state how you feel?
Or, maybe come up with a different statement…
Too show what you do NOT like about my comments?
Your use of the word “tolerance” has a strange Paradox. 🙂
———-
If you’re saying…
“You, Amos, have NO “religious tolerance” for those who don’t believe as you believe?”
And, should have “some religious tolerance…”
Then, aren’t you, Muff, also implying…
You, Muff, have NO “tolerance” for Amos, and my comments…
who does NOT believe as you believe?”
Or act as you act?
I act, by Writing comments about what I, Amos, believe.
That will point folks closer to Jesus. And maybe protect them from “Spiritual Abuse.”
I act, by Writing comments about what I, Amos, believe.
So others might struggle with, and examine these beliefs?
As I have had to do?
Simple? Huh?
———
“The “Paradox of Tolerance” arises when a tolerant person
holds antagonistic views towards intolerance,
and hence is intolerant of it.
The tolerant individual would then be by definition
intolerant of intolerance.”
They would be guilty of NOT “tolerating” my intolerance.
And, now, they are the “intolerant.”
Needing to show “some religious tolerance” to me, Amos. 🙂
Simple? Huh?
———-
Philosopher Karl Popper defined the paradox in 1945 in
The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1.[1]
“Less well known is the paradox of tolerance:
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance.
If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant,
if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society
against the onslaught of the intolerant,
then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.”
———
Yeah – Try using some different words… 🙂
Muff Potter wrote:
Was wondering…
Why are you NOT happy with my comments…
I’ve always enjoyed your comments…
Anything in particular, which was written, that you dislike?
Anything in particular, which was written, that you do NOT agree with?
Anything in particular, which was written, that would lead someone astray?
That would lead someone away from Jesus?
Maybe I missed it? And you can help?
Anything in particular, which was written, that you believe is NOT in the Bible?
Or, anything you believe is “Screwy-Louie?
Would you like to have a conversation about it?
Or – A debate?
Or…
Christiane wrote:
If that is an honest statement???
I would be more than happy to answer any questions.
The simple beginning is..
In the Bible, I have found for **His Disciples** that…
Jesus taught **His Disciples** there is…
The “ONE” Teacher – The “ONE” Leader – The “ONE” Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are NOT of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
And, a good beginning is found on this thread.
@ A. Amos Love:@ A. Amos Love:
Christiane wrote:
If that is an honest statement???
I would be more than happy to answer any questions.
In the Bible, I have found for **His Disciples** that…
Jesus taught **His Disciples** there is…
The “ONE” Teacher – The “ONE” Leader – The “ONE” Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are NOT of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Christiane
And, a good beginning for what Amos believes is found on this thread.
@ A. Amos Love:
@ A. Amos Love:
@ A. Amos Love:
I do have difficulty sorting out exactly what you believe in, but I will take the responsibility for not being able to understand.
I find Amos’ comments refreshing.
It’s nice to throw of the shackles of religion.
Off-topic. This just came through my Facebook. There’s a FREE logical fallacies poster,
the kinds of things that we frequently discuss here. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
Velour wrote:
Agreed! It’s not complicated like the shackles are!
A. Amos Love wrote:
If God calls women to be leaders in the church, they should be permitted to be leaders. If they have the skills and talent, they should not be barred from serving due to their gender. That Christians keep relegating certain tasks to men only and not allowing qualified women to do so is sexism. God does not support sexism.
Friend wrote:
I agree.
To me it’s not so much the leadership aspect per se that is the issue but that people in the church are treating women unfairly.
Men are being given chances and opportunities in Christianity but barring women from those same chances and opportunities, only due to their biological sex.
I think it’d be funny if one of these manly-man pastors was discovered to have been a woman in disguise the whole time, a la Mulan. I could see a mockumentary being done about it. Maybe a female comedian should try doing that.
Velour wrote:
Velour – What a nice comment…
Yes – Throw off the shackles of religion…
Never saw it like that before – Thanks
Victorious wrote:
Victorious wrote:
Hi Victorious
Thanks for the nice comment.
Nice to see-ya. It’s been awhile. 🙂
Yes – The shackles of religion are complicated.
Every Denomination… (And there are now 1,000’s, of them.) Oy Vey!!!
Every man made, man ruled, 501 c 3, IRS Corporation, you walk-into…
Has a different set or rules. (shackles of religion) Spoken and Un-spoken.
And the rules, shackles, keep-on-a-changin. 🙁
It would be nice to find a city with foundations… (And I’ve looked plenty. 🙁 )
Whose builder and maker is God…
But, Thank you Jesus…
It looks like John 3:8, and Rom 8:14, is where I’m enjoying living these days. 🙂
John 3:8 NASB
The **wind blows where it wishes (**wind = Greek pneuma = Spirit.)
and you hear the sound of it,
but do not know where it comes from and where it is going;
so is **everyone who is born of the Spirit.**
Rom 8:14 NASB
For all who are being **led by the Spirit of God,** these are sons of God.
He’s the best…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Maybe (s)he is a Feminismist conducting a false flag / black ops mission…
republican mother wrote:
LifeWay has become a substitute for the Holy Spirit in SBC teaching programs. The publishing house is now firmly in the hands of New Calvinists which are subtly indoctrinating SBC church members who are uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant about Calvinization of their denomination.
Can you point me to source material? The church part of my family attends recently urged everyone to go to a Bruce Ware workshop on family worship.
ishy wrote:
Oh. Wow. I can see where he gets this from (the whole “fashioned from a rib” passage). Basing an entire doctrine on a few verses is about as ridiculous as… say… I don’t know, maybe taking a couple verses out of Titus and using them to confine women to homemaking and child bearing.Max wrote: