Did a Collierville Watch Group Attempt to Conceal Valid Reports of a Highpoint Church Sex Offender?

I have always felt that violence was the last refuge of the incompetent, and empty threats the last sanctuary of the terminally inept. -Neil Gaiman link

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Update 11/27 I am removing the name of one individual who claimed we were on a witch hunt because it has caused issues for someone not associated with this blog. Ths was not done out of pressure, merely kindness. We stand by our initial post. If you have questions about it, you can contact us off line.

In my former church, a predator, Doug Goodrich, was caught after molesting a number of young teen boys. My friend, the mother of one of the teens, contacted the other parents about testifying in court against him. This predator was charming and a number of the parents, especially women, liked him. My friend was told that she shouldn't try to send him to prison since he was a great guy and just needed to be counseled. One woman in the church, untrained, said she was willing to be his counselor! My friend realized was stunned by this person's dangerous lack of common sense, proceeded with her valiant efforts. Goodrich was sentenced to 13 years in prison, much to the dismay of some of his supporters.

As an aside, let me testify to the heinous level or perversion that were inflicted on these boys. I am used to talking about abuse but this, without a doubt, was amongst the grossest and despicable acts I have heard about. Trust me on this one.

Look at what his attorney had to say. Words like "a good person" and "man's law" (as opposed to what, God's law?) Since I was intimately involved in this situation, I found myself shocked at the stupidity of some of the Christian leaders and church members involved in the situation. 

Goodrich's defense attorney, Joseph Cheshire, called the prison sentence one of the harshest he has ever seen.

"Quite often, people who are charged with sex offense do not admit what they've done. They can never come to grips with it," Cheshire said. "They have no remorse, no ability to work through those issues. He was entirely different than that."

Cheshire said Goodrich was a victim of unrecognized sexual, physical and psychological abuse and that "there were a lot of very troubling aspects to his life."

"He recognizes he's got to pay the price of man's law," Cheshire said. "I think he'll do it with his head up and come out a good person. He's going in a good person – flawed, but good."

So, I am rather irritated at myself that I didn't remember those lessons of 8 years ago when some bizarre things happened the last few days. Can you imagine a watch group that does not want to watch a confirmed rapist?

The Collierville Watch Facebook Group deleted information about a predator and refused to post any information on the convicted aggravated statutory rapist at Highpoint Church. Why?

This is a closed group which means you must be a member in order to participate. Here is the description of what they write about.  

This group is for Collierville TN residents. This is a place to share suspicious activity in our area, crimes, RECENT stories and events that affect our community. Non emergency Millersville police: 901-853-3207  

I have now heard from two individuals who were concerned about Timothy Heinz, a convicted statutory rapist. We wrote about this situation in High point Church Memphis Has a Convicted Statutory Rapist Leading WorshipIn this post you will find the documents proving that Heinz is a registered sex offender in Tennessee and that he has raped an underage girl.

There is more than sufficient proof that Timothy Heinz is a convicted predator.

One local person posted a link to our blog as well as Watch Keep in which the documents of his conviction and current status are well spelled out. In fact, one can use links to find the documentation on the official sex registry list in about 5 seconds. Also, one can call Highpoint Church to confirm that indeed, Heinz played in the worship band until our blogs outed his presence and the church removed him from that position.

The church was forced to make a statement on November 23 here. For your convenience, I have reprinted the entire statement at the end of this post. However, the leaders flat out admit that they knew he was a convicted statutory rapist and let him play in the band anyway. (I think I may have to do a separate post because there is so much to discuss about this statement.)

The conviction is so well documented that Raw Story linked to TWW for their story Church with rapist leading worship postpones merger with second church facing sex abuse claims. In other words, folks, there is no doubt that:

-Timothy Heinz is a rapist.
-He is a registered sex offender in Tennessee.
High point Church knew this information and allowed him to help lead worship anyway.

The Collierville Watch group have changed their *rules* on their website in the last day, adding this little doozy.

*You cannot post links to blogs or express your views on businesses or people without a news story or reliable source link. Slander and harassment of any kind is not allowed here. This is illegal and police reports can, will and have been filed, so just don't. 

Why Collierville-isn't High point Church in Memphis?

High point Church has now linked to a former church in Collierville.You can read the two posts about the three victims of a pedophile that has links to that Collierville church here, here, herehere and here.

TWW and Amy Smith were accused of being on a *witch hunt* by the administrator of the Collierville group.

One of the administrators of the group refused to post the links to the information from local members. Eventually this is what she told an individual. Update 11/26 10:40 PM EST Another group un Colliervilees refuses to link to the post because it includes the name of the administrator for the Collierville Watch Group. In the interest of seeing if this is the real reason, I have deleted, for now, the original tweet and posted it without identifiers to see if this make a  difference.

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Witch hunt? I responded that we were on a predator hunt and we found one, with plenty of documentation. Folks, let's get this straight. This individual had documentation of a convicted statutory rapist, the church admitted it, Raw Story reported it and we are the problem? At this point, I knew something was really wrong. I have never seen this sort of reaction by a watch group and I was suspicious that there was some sort of attempts to coverup going on in the background.

The threats commence.

In fairly short order, I began to receive a barrage of Direct Message tweets from an individual who shall remain anonymous. We know her name and she used it. However at the end of this exchange, she claimed she was 17. I never knowingly engage an underage kid on Twitter. We have since received reports that she is the daughter of one of the administrators which leads me to wonder if she was used to communicate the following.

  • I was accused of slander which, of course, means I was telling a lie. I never knowingly tell lies and that is why I post screen shots and links.
  • We were accused of having misleading and incorrect information and were *looking for trouble.* Yet, our information was totally correct and could be verified within minutes.
  • We were accused of having an agenda which is meant to sound negative. We do have an agenda. We like to protect kids.
  • She said that our tweets were hurting her personal life and business although, at this point, they had only been up a matter of hours and we don't have many Twitter followers in Collierville.
  • She then said the police have been contacted for harassment and slander of XXXXXXXXXXXXX.
  • She then claimed that a police officer told them, during their *report* that the victim was 17/18 years old and no violence occurred!!!!

Here are the tweets I received. I will comment more after you read them.

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Correction 11/27: Update to remove a name.

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" and harrassment against xxxxxxxxxx xxxxx. She has nothing to do"

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  • I believe these arguments were given to this person to DM to me and that they represent the deeply concerning viewpoints represented by the leader of this watch group.
  • I was told to remove my post because it was slander. I believe this person is referring to a tweet in which I responded and said I was on a predator hunt, not a witch hunt. I did ask if marijuana was legalized in Tennessee  since my proof was uncontestable.
  • The author said I needed to apologize to xxxxxxxx (11/27) for throwing her name "down in the dirt" or a police report for slander would be made. I told her my hone number was on my blog and to let me know when the police were contacted, obviously knowing that telling the truth is not slander.
  • She went on to say that they had to fact check everything for legalities. Of course, since he was on the offender registry, this made no sense whatsoever.
  • Then she claimed that the police have already been contacted, negating her first DM. It was obvious to me that she was not telling the truth at this point. I told her to contact my lawyer.

The concerning comment about a rape not being violent.

This individual claimed that the person was 17/18. There are three problems with this. If she was 18, it would not be statutory rape. Secondly, we have been in touch with several sources who know the young girl who was raped and she was 13/14 at the time. Rape is statutory whether one is 13 or 17. Being 17 doesn't make it OK. I knew something was off about these folks by this time.

Then this individual said that "no violence was involved" and this incident occurred 7 years ago. Rape is always violent and this is a stunning admission from someone involved in a watch group. The fact that a rape occurred 7 years ago also does not mean that an individual is now *safe*or *all better.* Good night! Who is in charge of this crowd?

So why did the administrator of the group not approve the information and why did the administrator step down last night?

I have been provided with some information and am asking the following questions in order to get confirmation:

1. Is Timothy Heinz's wife either now, or in the recent past, involved with the Collierville Watch Group?
2. Did Highpoint Church members apply pressure to not print this information on the Collierville Facebook page?
3. Why did the administrator not print the predator's information after the church made a public statement admitting to the presence of the sex offender on their worship team?
4. Why were we accused of being on a witch hunt and threatened with police reports for stating the truth?
5. Why did the administrator step down from her position last evening?
6. Did the administrator know that anyone falsely stating that a police report was made could be considered harassment by us?

A slight change in TWW's policy regarding confidentiality of emails or direct messages. Threats will not be tolerated.

For quite awhile, I believe we have been more than generous with our promise of confidentiality of emails. We wish to continue this.

However, from this point forward, if we are threatened that we will be or have been reported to the police or a person threatens us with slander, libel or defamation, bodily harm, etc. we will release their names and other identifiers to the public via our blog. This includes Direct Messages, phone messages and snail mail. Such threats may also be forwarded to legal counsel.

We will contact any police department in the area of the threat and ask if police reports have been made and will relay the name and other identifiers to the police.

We have kept many of these threats from our readers, knowing that most of them were from impotent blowhards. However, this series of Direct Messages and ridiculous threats affected my Thanksgiving as I pondered how to deal with them. I hope you all understand or reasons for doing this.



Statement from Highpoint Church November 23, 2016 link

As you read this information, it is important to know that we hurt for the victim and are always working toward healing for victims and perpetrators. It is our heart to always minister to all people in an honorable way that brings healing that can only come through Jesus.

Timothy (Tim) Heinz and his wife and children began attending High point when the Millersville campus first began in the fall of 2013, with his disclosure of being on the Sex Offender Registry to the High point leadership team. Our position was that Tim would be welcome to attend High point, but at that time he would not serve in any capacity. A year later, Tim approached the leadership about being allowed to serve. The decision was made that he would be able to serve in a support role on the production team with boundaries in place to hold Tim accountable and for everyone’s protection. He has done that faithfully for the last two years. In addition, from time to time, he has served as a bass player on stage for the worship services. At no time has he led worship for High point. In addition, Tim is not now nor has he ever been on staff at High point, and he is not paid for his volunteer ministry. 

The safety of the children and students in our congregation is our highest priority. Before Tim ever visited High point, we’ve operated with a high level of protective policies and procedures* in place for our children and student ministries, including references and background checks on everyone – staff and volunteers – who ministers to kids and students. While we believe that nobody is beyond God’s redemption, we also believe that people must live with the consequences of their decisions. Thus, Tim has never worked with children or student ministries while at High point, and he has been in accountability with a team of men the entire time he has been at High point.

So, it is true that we have a convicted sex offender serving at High point Church. The reality is that High point Church is made up of all kinds of sinners. High point is a perfect place for imperfect people. As Paul pointed out in 1 Corinthians 6 in describing sinners, “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” We choose to believe His grace is sufficient for all our sins.

While His grace brings forgiveness, it still requires the church leadership to be responsible in taking appropriate measures in the best interest of our church family. In order to alleviate any potential adverse perception, and in view of the impact of this situation on Tim and his family, Tim will no longer be serving in any role on stage, but will continue to serve in a support role. Just as Jesus would have us do, we will continue to be a place of refuge for those who have been victims of sexual abuse and we will also continue to minister to Tim and his family.

Comments

Did a Collierville Watch Group Attempt to Conceal Valid Reports of a Highpoint Church Sex Offender? — 282 Comments

  1. Good for you, Dee! I’m glad that you’ll be reporting all threats going forward and not protecting those who threaten. And what kind of “watch” group is that? Smells like a fraud to me.

  2. “If it becomes a news media reported article, than that can be posted. Until then we need to leave it off Collierville watch.”

    Right. Because we all know how accurate the news media articles are! I’m with you Dee, something is not right with this “watch” group, besides the fact that the leaders are rank amateurs.

  3. What a very strange situation. I can only surmise that someone in the leadership of the Watch group is either connected to the church or to the sex offender. Otherwise, who would want to filter out information about sex offenders working in churches? If they are not allowed to post blog articles, fine, but there are other resources with the same information.

    I also find it very strange that a police officer would make a statement downplaying the conviction of a sex offender. This does not seem professional. Was this police officer speaking in an official capacity? Is the officer connected to the church or the offender? It seems like someone speaking in an official capacity would be thinking and speaking with potential liability in mind.

    As to the church’s statement… this self-serving propaganda is another reason why I am DONE with organized church. The adults can all congratulate themselves on their mutual sinfulness and inclusivity but what about the kids? Who is watching out for them?

  4. My spell check keeps changing Collierville back to Millersville. I hope I have corrected it all now.

  5. Thank you Dee. Churches should be as safe if not safer for people as any other organization. Keep up the hard work you have been called too!

  6. @ dee:
    You mention that the person tweeting you eventually claimed to be 17. Was this the same person who wrote in the fourth message, “We at Collierville Watch are simply concerned parents…”?

    By chance is someone trying to entrap you by lying about their age?

    Overall the messages aren’t typical of teenagers’ texting style… but I don’t know every teen. This situation worries me.

  7. I think it’s correct that experts say that sexual predators will not change their behavior regardless of ‘therapy’ or conversion, etc.

    What do you consider to be an appropriate venue for a predator to participate in a church setting? I’m not stirring the pot here, I really don’t know.

    If, and this is a big IF, the congregation is aware of the situation, the predator is never alone at church, etc….Is there a place that considered ‘safe’ for them to work?

    We sometimes visit a church locally which ministers largely to homeless, felons, ex-drug addicts etc….There is a man there who we all know is a convicted sex offender. He is escorted to the restroom, sat with in church, never allowed down the hall to the Education area…He is also a very gifted musician….And sometimes he does play in the worship band.

    He never leaves the stage until his escort arrives….Is that being naive? Is this an area where by nature the offender cannot be truly repentant and so cannot be forgiven? Is helping with worship seen as a step farther in trust or sanctification than, say, mowing the lawn at church?

    I am not a troll; I just don’t know the answers. I was physically and sexually abused as a child so I ‘feel’ that there are no places for abusers in church but I don’t know….

    What does your research and your experts say?

    Thank you for your dedication to this cause.

  8. Friend wrote:

    @ dee:
    You mention that the person tweeting you eventually claimed to be 17. Was this the same person who wrote in the fourth message, “We at Collierville Watch are simply concerned parents…”?

    From my experience with a crooked homeowner’s association, whenever a group makes the claim (or actually titles themselves) “CONCERNED fill-in-the-blank”, it’s a scam by a front group for corruption.

    I would not be surprised if this Watch Group bears the same relation to Highpoint Church as Cult Awareness Network does to Scientology.

  9. Though I have eventually reconciled with many of the groups from my past as best I could, some of those reconciliations took over a decade. Most Christians in the real world have told me that was an utter waste of time and I should just get over it, much like someone should get over the death of a family member after a day or two. That is not an exaggeration though most said it should take no longer than a few months. I never got but that is another post.

    When I first entered the collective “hive” I felt this connection and community, another personality failing on my part, one should never feel, ever. I say that because emotionalism is fine for leaders and upper management, the pew sitters don’t have that option in their contract so they can only be “outraged” / feel if it helps the collective. Strange as it may be I think that viewpoint is accurate seeing how the higher ups “feel” hurt when the nonprofessionals point out how hypocritical and stupid they are acting.

    I learned about threats both subtle to overt during our first “excommunication” of one girl who had the vile notion that she could share during our communion service. Only men could do that, I mean they literally escorted her out of the room. They let us know that she most likely was not a Christian because she said naughty words when she got frustrated by their “correction”. Now I personally knew people in leadership and the privileged group that were racists, loathed other people in the congregation, treated others like total crap, lied about issues like science, mental health, medication for mentally ill and other such nonsense. Those “sins” were just fine but if you back talk the leadership you are out the door; literally in some cases.

    The internet has done one thing it has leveled the playing field a bit and now all the critters are running for the baseboards when the lights go on. To bad. Threatening people is never an option in adult dialog, most of this would not happen if these leaders would just respond to needs instead of trying to protect their brand.

  10. Ken happened to leave this link open and it caught my eye so I read all of it. It seems like the cyberbullies have decided to start threatening in order to intimidate. My recommendation is for at least Dee and Deb and perhaps anybody else posting on here, to “document, document, document!” absolutely everything that they/you/we/I post. That would include not only electronic copies but also paper copies, just in case the person(s) making threats, be they veiled or direct, has a way to modify and edit those threats. Screen capture and then print EVERYTHING. When it comes to this type of predatory behavior, a person either misrepresenting themselves as under-age, or worse, using one of their under-aged children to post on their behalf, things can get ugly very quickly. So keeping several copies of what was truly said and written can prove to be vital, if the harassers, threatening ones decide to go high order and not only bluff but actually decide to try to use the legal system to intimidate normal average folks like us. Hopefully the trolls will read my post and decide that it is simply not worth it, but by their prior actions, it is possible that they “need to win at all cost, no matter what happens next and whatever it might take”. Folks that are that ruthless and vindictive without reason/legal grounds are unfortunately more common than most of us realize. Thank God most folks are decent, but I pity the 17 year old who is being played. But is that person truly under-aged or is it nothing but a fake cyber profile to avoid legal prosecution for slandering Dee ? Will be praying that the Lord gives all of you wisdom on what the next step is to protect yourselves and your families from some pretty sly ruthless folks.

  11. My senses tell me there is absolutely no way in the world something strange and highly unethical isn’t going on behind the scenes.

    This is utter speculation, but if someone wanted to shield a family member with a criminal predatory past from detection, what better place could there be than in the leadership of a local crime watch group? You could attempt to head off possible exposure of the family member, and if that fails, at the very least be on the inside, ingratiating yourself to members and spinning information in your best possible interests should the family member be outed.

  12. Ken F’s wife wrote:

    But is that person truly under-aged or is it nothing but a fake cyber profile to avoid legal prosecution for slandering Dee ?

    Trust me-it crossed my mind. That is why I broke off contact immediately.

  13. The problem is that in this day and age anyone can put anything in print. Unfortunately that includes you. I am in no way condoning a sex offender. But to attack someone, by name, that is simple covering all the bases on a very inflammatory subject to insure no backlash is idiotic and infantile. In your rambling you have done nothing but hinder any good a predator watch group could accomplish. You should be ashamed of your own behavior because the way you have went about this is more than wrong. I understand you are emotionally invested through your own history, but you have fumbled this. I hope you feel the reprecussions.

  14. What I’m reading from the church’s statement is that in 2013 a registered sex offender known by the leadership began attending the church. Now, in 2016, the church is being made aware of this. If the safety of children and students is the “highest priority” and the church has a “high level of protective policies and procedures,” why is the congregation being informed of this three years after the fact?

  15. This is just another pile of nonsense from someone who is covering for something in Collierville. This rapist has been on the Tennessee Sex Offender list for a long time. It would take a thrid grader about 15 seconds to find it. So someone for some reason is not covering the bases nd you seem to be assisting in this. How are things in Collierville?

  16. The rationalizations: She was 17/18. It wasn’t violent. It was 9 years ago. Sounds like a witch hunt. This narrative is likely from someone in the perpetrator’s inner circle, including Highpoint Collierville people.

    Isn’t it obvious that the Watch Admin is far more interested in the narrative of the inner circle than actually protecting the 8,000 Facebook members?

    How presumptuous of them to DECIDE FOR ME and MY KIDS what’s safe and what’s not safe. Who’s a risk and who’s not a risk. They should be simply reporting the details and leaving it up to each parent to make an informed decision. Censorship of facts to protect the public safety is an affront to our citizenry. These people are potentially dangerous.

    The idea of a so-called Watch Group engaged in more coverups of a convicted felon, a sex predator within the community, is infuriating. I’m not sure what else is going on, but it really makes one wonder why they would go to such great lengths to try to threaten and intimidate Dee, possibly using a minor in the process, throwing around police and slander terminology, advising Dee to take down the original post, suggests to me there is something much more sinister that is being hidden. What else is being covered up at Highpoint? Who is being protected?

    If this was just one blog post that they thought was irrelevant or misguided, there is no way that such a giant coordinated effort would be made to push back on TWW and Dee. This makes me want to dig in deeper to expose more information and actually protect the public.

  17. @ Jessica:
    Collierville Watch Group:
    A wholly-owned subsidiary of Highpoint Church.
    Just like Cult Awareness Network and Scientology.

  18. Ken F’s wife wrote:

    Thank God most folks are decent, but I pity the 17 year old who is being played. But is that person truly under-aged or is it nothing but a fake cyber profile to avoid legal prosecution for slandering Dee ?

    Or the groundwork grooming for a false accusation of pedophila against Dee?

  19. Jessica wrote:

    The rationalizations: She was 17/18. It wasn’t violent. It was 9 years ago. Sounds like a witch hunt. This narrative is likely from someone in the perpetrator’s inner circle, including Highpoint Collierville people.

    sounds like the real truth is MUCH worse …. the perpetrator’s supporters ‘doth protest too much’ when they KNOW HE IS GUILTY and that the Church did not tell its congregation.

    Even to attempt to intimidate Dee is a sign that the truth is much worse that even we can imagine.

    This perpetrator: who IS he to the leadership of ‘his’ church?????

    or are they (the church leadership) simply worried about the fall-out from this being exposed publicly???

    I’d say they are desperate to hide the truth.

  20. Anon wrote:

    In your rambling you have done nothing but hinder any good a predator watch group could accomplish. You should be ashamed of your own behavior because the way you have went about this is more than wrong.

    Do you all see what I am dealing with here? What have I done wrong? I have reported an old crime of a rapist who is on the TN sex offender registry list. This make no sense whatsoever including your wish for repercussions. Why?

  21. I find it not only believable that a teenager from Collierville would lash out at you, I find it somewhat predictable.

    To use Highpoint terminology, let me unpack this for the readers. Highpoint’s youth group CREW acts as a parent approved nightclub for the local kids. They get to hang out in the dark, crunk and grind to nasty music, feel cool using Satanic tinged themes (like Zombies) for their sermon series (all of this is detailed in my prior comment a couple of posts ago) and the students and leaders get to flirt with each other and treat church like a nightclub/meat market.

    Parents lend their full support to these Wednesdays because they believe the kids are learning about Jesus and having some good clean fun. You ladies brought to the attention of the parents in Collierville that Highpoint may not be the safe, wholesome environment that they thought it was. Now there is a danger that parents will check out what is really going on on Wednesday nights and to put it bluntly, you’re going to bork their scrog hunting, ladies.

    Now the HPC youth pastors, leaders and worship leaders might have to clean up Wednesdays and start dressing and acting more responsibly and maybe even like Christian leaders. The teens don’t want that. In defense of keeping the HPC parent approved immorality in place, they will accuse you of slander, call the police, hold their breath till they pass out or whatever they need to do to get you out of their bidnezz.

    Regardless of how “wonderful” Tim Heinz may be in person, smart parents will take all this concealment and push-back from Highpoint and the locals in Collierville – in defense of a man who raped a young teen – seriously. Parents need to consider carefully about what else HPC is concealing from them and why they would want to partner with such an organization.

  22. I have semi deleted the name and picture of the administrator. It appears that another watch group will not post links to this post because said administrator had nothing to do with it. So, let’s see if that is true. I give them until tomorrow afternoon to post the link to this blog. If they do not, the Collierville Watch FB groups’ former administrator’s name and pic is going back up and this time it stays for good. So Collierville, decide what you want to do.

  23. dee wrote:

    Do you all see what I am dealing with here? What have I done wrong?

    Be encouraged. You hit on something important.

  24. It is the intelligent and responsible thing to do, to limit blog post links, because anyone can say anything about another person and to protect the integrity of the page something not from a known and reputable news source should be removed regardless of its content. I would hope common sense would prevail on your part but it has not. And your behavior after the fact will discredit you. And if you continue in this manner, I believe there will be a backlash. This has nothing to do with a predator. What makes this sad is your twisting and manipulating because you didn’t get your way. There are rules you don’t like and so you are lashing out like a child. You must truly be a broken person to not see that attacking and insinuating lies is wrong. @ dee:

  25. You are a sad human being to attack an innocent person.

    Only trash would behave this way. You are trying to be a pseudo reporter but fail. dee wrote:

    I have semi deleted the name and picture of the administrator. It appears that another watch group will not post links to this post because said administrator had nothing to do with it. So, let’s see if that is true. I give them until tomorrow afternoon to post the link to this blog. If they do not, the Collierville Watch FB groups’ former administrator’s name and pic is going back up and this time it stays for good. So Collierville, decide what you want to do.

  26. siteseer wrote:

    I can only surmise that someone in the leadership of the Watch group is either connected to the church or to the sex offender.

    Yes, it deserves further investigating. Something is fishy.

    Scientology, for example, bought the website of a major cult watch group that was critical of Scientology. Now Scientologists staff the phones, website, etc. and don’t come right out and spell it to alarmed relatives who call or email about their relatives being in cults.

  27. My blog post about Tim Heinz does not mention the watch group admin at all. I wrote it and her comment about the witch hunt was after my post in reference to mine and Dee’s posts. http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2016/11/convicted-registered-child-sex-offender.html?m=1

    Raw Story covered the Heinz story last week, so will the administrators allow it to be posted?

    https://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/church-with-rapist-leading-worship-postpones-merger-with-second-church-facing-sex-abuse-claims/

  28. Anon wrote:

    The problem is that in this day and age anyone can put anything in print. Unfortunately that includes you.

    And you.
    Anon wrote:

    you have done nothing but hinder any good a predator watch group could accomplish.

    Exaxtly what does a predator watch group accomplish by not reporting a predator?

  29. Anon wrote:

    It is the intelligent and responsible thing to do, to limit blog post links

    Okay, so aside from that, did you have something against posting the fact that a registered sex offender has been involved in the worship team at a local church? The overreaction of your group is looking very bizarre. Obviously, there’s more to the story.

  30. Anon wrote:

    something not from a known and reputable news source should be removed regardless of its content.

    Hi Anon, are you trying to say that linking to the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation (TBI)’s Sex Offender Registry is not a known and reputable source?

    Anon wrote:

    This has nothing to do with a predator.

    This has everything to do with a predator. In this case, a predator who pled guilty, was tried and convicted of a raping a minor. A sex crime. A felony. And a church that concealed this fact from parents of minor children, while hiding him backstage in technical arts, then promoted him to the worship team, again without telling the 3,000 people in attendance. That’s negligence. And the FB Watch people want to cover up the coverup and silence anyone that wants to warn parents? Must have struck a nerve?

    Anon wrote:

    so you are lashing out like a child.
    You must truly be a broken person
    You are a sad human being
    Only trash would behave this way.
    You are trying to be a pseudo reporter but fail

    Hi Anon, Five ad hominem attacks in a row is a sign of desperation and one that has lost not just the argument, but losign their own credibility…

  31. Anon wrote:

    It is the intelligent and responsible thing to do, to limit blog post links, because anyone can say anything about another person and to protect the integrity of the page something not from a known and reputable news source should be removed regardless of its content. I would hope common sense would prevail on your part but it has not. And your behavior after the fact will discredit you. And if you continue in this manner, I believe there will be a backlash. This has nothing to do with a predator. What makes this sad is your twisting and manipulating because you didn’t get your way. There are rules you don’t like and so you are lashing out like a child. You must truly be a broken person to not see that attacking and insinuating lies is wrong.

    The dude that is under discussion is listed on a sex offender list that is publicly accessible, yes?

  32. Velour wrote:

    Scientology, for example, bought the website of a major cult watch group that was critical of Scientology. Now Scientologists staff the phones, website, etc. and don’t come right out and spell it to alarmed relatives who call or email about their relatives being in cults.

    That’s horrifying!

  33. Anon wrote:

    You are a sad human being to attack an innocent person.

    You have made a significant number of accusations. Over the years I have read many stories posted here and some came and made similar allegations that were later found false. I will continue to use judgement concerning what I read but so far I have seen great care taken by Dee and Deb to get their stories correct. It remains to be seen if the same applies to your comments but the insults do tend to diminish credibility.

  34. Anon wrote:

    You are a sad human being to attack an innocent person.

    Only trash would behave this way. You are trying to be a pseudo reporter but fail

    And PASTOR gives you a doggie biscuit and pat-pat-pat on the head.

  35. Nancy2 wrote:

    Exaxtly what does a predator watch group accomplish by not reporting a predator?

    Doublepluswarmfeelies for themselves, just like any other Activist(TM).

  36. Velour wrote:

    Scientology, for example, bought the website of a major cult watch group that was critical of Scientology. Now Scientologists staff the phones, website, etc. and don’t come right out and spell it to alarmed relatives who call or email about their relatives being in cults.

    Cult Awareness Network, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Scientology.

    A lot of Pastors would kill for the power and influence and wealth of David Miscavage.

  37. Anon wrote:

    You are a sad human being to attack an innocent person.

    Only trash would behave this way. You are trying to be a pseudo reporter but fail

    And now the sock puppets come out of the woodwork.

    Fair Game Law LRH has been invoked from Flag.

  38. Memphian Guest wrote:

    I find it not only believable that a teenager from Collierville would lash out at you, I find it somewhat predictable.

    To use Highpoint terminology, let me unpack this for the readers. Highpoint’s youth group CREW acts as a parent approved nightclub for the local kids. They get to hang out in the dark, crunk and grind to nasty music, feel cool using Satanic tinged themes (like Zombies) for their sermon series (all of this is detailed in my prior comment a couple of posts ago) and the students and leaders get to flirt with each other and treat church like a nightclub/meat market.

    And the Witches of Wartburg have the nerve to rain on their meat parade.

  39. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And the Witches of Wartburg have the nerve to rain on their meat parade.

    Power to the Good Witches of Wartburg!!!

    the description of that ‘youth group nightclub meat market’ sounds like it’s a prime hunting ground for all kinds of predation from adult ‘leadership’ …. God have mercy!

  40. It’s responsible to rely on facts and until everything is researched to not support something that COULD be wrong. But after the post was removed The admin were attacked on Twitter and there was no reasoning with this loon. She has her agenda and is warping what actually occurred. siteseer wrote:

    Anon wrote:

    It is the intelligent and responsible thing to do, to limit blog post links

    Okay, so aside from that, did you have something against posting the fact that a registered sex offender has been involved in the worship team at a local church? The overreaction of your group is looking very bizarre. Obviously, there’s more to the story.

  41. “*You cannot post links to blogs or express your views on businesses or people without a news story or reliable source link. Slander and harassment of any kind is not allowed here. This is illegal and police reports can, will and have been filed, so just don’t. ”
    I guess Tennessee criminal records is not considered to be a reliable source.

  42. Anon wrote:

    It’s responsible to rely on facts and until everything is researched to not support something that COULD be wrong. But after the post was removed The admin were attacked on Twitter and there was no reasoning with this loon. She has her agenda and is warping what actually occurred. siteseer wrote:

    You are revising history. The “witch hunt” and “agenda” against Highpoint comment in the screenshot was made to the member inquiring the reason that her links were removed. Sharing that comment on twitter exactly as it was stated isn’t an attack. The comment was on social media and expresses an opinion that Dee and I are on a witch hunt and have an agenda against HP. I shared that comment.
    Anon wrote:

    It is the intelligent and responsible thing to do, to limit blog post links

    Okay, so aside from that, did you have something against posting the fact that a registered sex offender has been involved in the worship team at a local church? The overreaction of your group is looking very bizarre. Obviously, there’s more to the story.

  43. @ Anon:

    You are revising history. The “witch hunt” and “agenda” against Highpoint comment in the screenshot was made to the member inquiring the reason that her links were removed. Sharing that comment on twitter exactly as it was stated isn’t an attack. The comment was on social media and expresses an opinion that Dee and I are on a witch hunt and have an agenda against HP. I shared that comment.

  44. @ Anon:

    It’s a matter of public record, Anon, why don’t you lash out at the law enforcement authorities that arrested him, the district attorney who prosecuted him, the legislators who passed the law making such crimes a matter of public record and the citizens of the State of Tennessee for electing those legislators?

    You are coming across as truly unintelligible, it’s impossible to understand your rationale for this rant–unless, of course, you have a vested interest in this that supersedes in your mind the interests of every teenage girl who could potentially be a future victim in that church.

  45. Anon wrote:

    It’s responsible to rely on facts and until everything is researched to not support something that COULD be wrong. But after the post was removed The admin were attacked on Twitter and there was no reasoning with this loon. She has her agenda and is warping what actually occurred

    I saw the comment on twitter and it did not strike me as an attack, in fact I wondered why she had been responded to so harshly and unreasonably. I am still wondering that. Much name-calling and wrath going on here without explanation. It seems like Dee stepped into a minefield unawares.

  46. Jessica wrote:

    …it really makes one wonder why they would go to such great lengths to try to threaten and intimidate Dee…throwing around police and slander terminology…

    And typically, they can’t even get that part right; even if this were a lie, were the convicted sex offender not really a sex offender, were this all an incredible mistake in which a perfectly innocent man somehow ended up in a mug shot and somehow through a mischievous hack ended up on a list of sex offenders in Tennessee, it would be libel, not slander.

    Perhaps it’s because churches that are not really Christian fellowships but rather antichristian cults destructive of fellowship (the types that harbor sex offenders and don’t inform parents) so often throw that word “slander” around with reference to anyone telling the truth about the abuse coming from the leadership, it gets ingrained into the minds of the cultist, and out pops that inaccurate word.

  47. @ Anon:

    Didn’t the church remove the sex offender and admit that he was, in fact, a sex offender? So why don’t you attack the church for “slander” of this “innocent man”?

  48. @ Nancy2:
    Yeah, totally selective in their choosing of what is & isn’t a reputable source. It’s a big pile of bull & I’m so glad they posted it on a site where these kinds of shennanigans & linguistic trickery are seen though & challenged.

    Dee, you have the patience of a saint.

  49. Law Prof wrote:

    Perhaps it’s because churches that are not really Christian fellowships but rather antichristian cults destructive of fellowship…

    A common alternative is that they are – at least in one sense – neither; rather, they’re nothing more than fraternity/sorority analogs. They exist to provide the in-crowd with something to do and, by extension, to protect their own.

    The complication is that when these groups invoke Jesus’ name, they place themselves in a certain relationship with the unseen world. In that case, I’m reminded of Jesus’ warning, set in the context of the unforgiveable sin and the calling of his work evil: Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me, scatters.

  50. I agree with what Bill M wrote. Dee and Deb have always researched everything they put out here more than most of us would ever think possible. I thank God that they are willing to bring things like this to our attention so that we can be made aware of them and things like this. We can no longer take the high road and ignore the sexual predators in our churches. It has to be stopped. As far as the situation where Molly wrote that the “sexual predator” was totally watched and sometimes played in the worship band”, I’m not sure what I think about it. On one hand, it’s ok. He has the ability to play music and is sharing it. But on the other hand, once you let the person do this, will they ask to do other things in the church asking for lenience because he could be trusted to play in the worship band. I helped years ago to get rid of a band teacher at a school who was a “predator” and I am willing to do it again if it ever comes up.

  51. Anon wrote:

    there was no reasoning with this loon. She has her agenda and is warping what actually occurred.

    Again, your choice of terminology reveals your real character and motive. All of us who know the work of this blog’s owners know that they research carefully before they publish new blogs—and we know their motives are good and well-intentioned—so your accusations ring completely false.

  52. Anon wrote:

    It’s responsible to rely on facts and until everything is researched to not support something that COULD be wrong. But after the post was removed The admin were attacked on Twitter and there was no reasoning with this loon. She has her agenda and is warping what actually occurred.

    Debi Calvet wrote:

    Again, your choice of terminology reveals your real character and motive.

    Maybe you should go back and read through your own comments here, Anon. It appears to me that you are the one coming across a bit odd, defensive, and clueless as to what has transpired in social media and the actual police case.

  53. Bridget wrote:

    Anon. It appears to me that you are the one coming across a bit odd, defensive, and clueless as to what has transpired in social media and the actual police case.

    When I read Anon’s comments it make me think that he/she is projecting. See: http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/projection

    Projection is a psychological defense mechanism in which individuals attribute characteristics they find unacceptable in themselves to another person. For example, a husband who has a hostile nature might attribute this hostility to his wife and say she has an anger management problem.

    Rather than deal with the very serious problems in their own church/community, it looks like they are projecting their own failures onto others.

  54. Anon wrote:

    The admin were attacked on Twitter and there was no reasoning with this loon. She has her agenda and is warping what actually occurred.

    First, I was accused of being on a witch hunt before I even knew about this group. I didn’t start this.
    Second, I took a screen shot of the accusation and responded to it.
    Third-I can’t warp what actually happened since all I know is what was said on twitter and to me.
    Fourth-My agenda is to protect kids by notifying a community that there is a predator performing on stage at a church and the church knows about it.
    Fifth- Is the predator’s wife a member of this watch group?
    Sixth- I understand that this watch group is Christian. Is calling me a *loon* a Christian response?
    Seventh- Why is a watch group now *secret?* What are they afraid of? From what I understand, Coliseum persecutions have ended.

  55. Folks,

    I have never, ever experienced anything like this in 7 years of blogging. In order to help out a dear person, I have removed the name of the administrator of a watch group in Collierville who, before I knew of its existence, stated that I was on a witch hunt. I had not even heard of them at this point.

    Since I have responded, there has been an unprecedented response by this group, one of which you can figure out by my first paragraph. I have also found out this groups has become *top secret* in order to protect themselves against…what? Me? Good night!

    Finally, I have been told that this is a Christian™ group. Yep-that’s right. They are one of ours. BFFs of this group have called me a *loon,” accused me of slander, and have claimed to be making police reports due to harassment.

    All of this because I wanted to alert people about a convicted rapist who leads worship at Highpoint Church. And not, I am called a *conspiracy theorist* in spite of the fact that the church has admitted to letting this guy lead worship.

    Go figure.

  56. Law Prof wrote:

    Didn’t the church remove the sex offender and admit that he was, in fact, a sex offender?

    Actually, they only partly removed him. From their statement: “Tim will no longer be serving in any role on stage, but will continue to serve in a support role.” The support role he was in previously was on the production team. So, HP Church still has a registered sex offender serving at their church. When a parent or child sees someone in a church in a service role (running lights or sound, taking up offering, whatever) it would be natural to consider that person to be safe and trusted.

  57. dee wrote:

    Fifth- Is the predator’s wife a member of this watch group?
    Sixth- I understand that this watch group is Christian. Is calling me a *loon* a Christian response?

    – his wife is a member of the watch group
    – As far as I know, the group does not have the designation of being a Christian group.

  58. Anon wrote:

    This has nothing to do with a predator

    Yes it does. It has always been about a predator. if you read this blog instead of showing up to defend your BFF you would know that to be true.

    Anon wrote:

    What makes this sad is your twisting and manipulating because you didn’t get your way

    I didn’t get my way? What in the world are you talking about? I wanted the predator exposed at the church and that happened. What was my way?

    Anon wrote:

    You must truly be a broken person to not see that attacking and insinuating lies is wrong

    Anon wrote:

    You are a sad human being to attack an innocent person.
    Only trash would behave this way

    First of all, if you are a Christian, you admit that you are broken. I know that I am. Do you? And if you are a Christian would you call someone else *trash.* Good night! What sort of people am I dealing with?

    Anon wrote:

    You are trying to be a pseudo reporter but fail

    I have never tried to be a reported. I am a blogger and that is something else entirely.

  59. Law Prof wrote:

    @ Anon:

    Didn’t the church remove the sex offender and admit that he was, in fact, a sex offender? So why don’t you attack the church for “slander” of this “innocent man”?

    Because they’re in the church’s pocket, that’s why.
    Or they’re just a front group for the church, just like Cult Awareness Network is a front group for Scientology.

  60. Harley wrote:

    As far as the situation where Molly wrote that the “sexual predator” was totally watched and sometimes played in the worship band”, I’m not sure what I think about it. On one hand, it’s ok. He has the ability to play music and is sharing it. But on the other hand, once you let the person do this, will they ask to do other things in the church asking for lenience because he could be trusted to play in the worship band.

    Two issues:
    1. The Collierville Worship team leads at both weekend services and youth services. Some worship leaders stay and socialize and even help lead students after the worship set on Wednesday nights at HIghpoint. HPC did not clarify which services Heinz played at. I’m not sure I would trust their answer at this point since they tried to argue band members on platform are not leading the flock in worship which is a ridiculous claim. Highpoint also features different singers for different songs so they do not have one lone performer leading. Heinz is a bassist. Memphis is the birth place of rock n roll and is called Blues City. There is NO shortage of bassists in the greater Memphis area. Something else is going on here.

    2. There is still the issue of Heinz continuing to work in Highpoint’s technical arts video production department. Most mega churches with video teams and technical arts teams have many teens, both boys and girls, volunteering and working in these departments. I have seen teens in the “front of house” at HPC.

    Chris Conlee has not been honest about Heinz’s potential exposure to or contact with teens on either count.

  61. Christiane wrote:

    the description of that ‘youth group nightclub meat market’ sounds like it’s a prime hunting ground for all kinds of predation from adult ‘leadership’ …. God have mercy!

    Maybe that’s the reason it’s that way.
    Feature, Not Bug.

  62. Anon wrote:

    What makes this sad is your twisting and manipulating because you didn’t get your way. There are rules you don’t like and so you are lashing out like a child.

    Yeesh. There speaks the pot to the kettle. Are you even reading what you’ve written here?

  63. dee wrote:

    I have never, ever experienced anything like this in 7 years of blogging.

    Full moon tonight? I haven’t checked…

  64. Why do so many churches find it necessary to defend child molesters in their midst, and so vehemently? Instead of making their church a safe place for children, they seem intent on willingly offering up their children as victims. It is sick, sick, sick.

  65. @ Amy Smith:
    Amy Smith wrote:

    Yes she is. I’ve seen evidence that she is a member.

    I have now seen the evidence that appears to prove that the wife of convicted rapist Timothy Heinz is a member of the super secret Collierville watch group.

  66. Oh, and in case the Collierville group wants to blame an innocent women for this, don’t. There are others who are not pleased with the way this is going.

  67. Law Prof wrote:

    Perhaps it’s because churches that are not really Christian fellowships but rather antichristian cults destructive of fellowship…

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    A common alternative is that they are – at least in one sense – neither; rather, they’re nothing more than fraternity/sorority analogs. They exist to provide the in-crowd with something to do and, by extension, to protect their own.

    This.

    This is exactly right. Memphis has a huge church-going population. The most recent information I could find listed 20 megachurches (weekly attendance of 2000 or more) in the Memphis metropolitan area.

    Local churches have something going on every day of the week.
    Sunday – Sunday school and worship service
    Monday – Church league youth sports practice (soccer, t-ball/baseball, basketball {church has a gym!})
    Tuesday – Men’s prayer group (6:30 am) Ladies Bible Study (9:30 am)
    Wednesday – Dinner at church and AWANA, choir practice, youth group
    Thursday – Small group in people’s homes (childcare provided at the church if needed)
    Friday – (Night off so you can go to the Christian high school whatever-sport-is-in-season game)
    Saturday – All day for church league sports for the kids

    Don’t forget the Monthly Ladies dinner (or luncheon) with a speaker…the monthly Saturday morning men’s breakfast…rehearsals for the Christmas/Easter musical extravaganza…and on and on it goes in an endless merry-go-round of activity.

    Many of these people have no friends and no life outside of church. They honestly think they have centered their life around their faith because they spend a lot of time thinking/talking about God and hanging out with their Christian friends. When you tell someone their church has a problem, it feels like a personal attack. If their church is damaged it could cause a serious disruption to their entire way of life. The church must be protected at all costs. And if the church leaders decide that it’s okay to have a sex offender playing the bass in front of church then it must be okay.

  68. Hi Balance One

    I plan to look at their statement this week to discuss my concern with this. It will be a TWW tutorial.

  69. JeffT wrote:

    Instead of making their church a safe place for children, they seem intent on willingly offering up their children as victims. It is sick, sick, sick.

    like the legend of Silene:
    “To appease the dragon, the people of Silene fed it two sheep every day. When they ran out of sheep they started feeding it their children”

  70. The Collierville group has 8,000 members. Why would they think that only one person might be disagreeing with their approach. We gets lots and lots of info from a wide variety of people at TWW. i suggest that the people in this group play nice of we begin posting…

  71. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    Sunday – Sunday school and worship service
    Monday – Church league youth sports practice (soccer, t-ball/baseball, basketball {church has a gym!})
    Tuesday – Men’s prayer group (6:30 am) Ladies Bible Study (9:30 am)
    Wednesday – Dinner at church and AWANA, choir practice, youth group
    Thursday – Small group in people’s homes (childcare provided at the church if needed)
    Friday – (Night off so you can go to the Christian high school whatever-sport-is-in-season game)
    Saturday – All day for church league sports for the kids

    what days do they open their soup kitchen?

    what day do they visit with people in nursing homes to minister to them and sing hymns with them?

    what day do they work together with other community churches for the benefit of the homeless in the entire community?

    what days do they open their church thrift shop with proceeds designated for the poor?

    when and where do their youth volunteer in the community to tutor innercity littles with their reading; to work in the hospital as aides; to work in facilities for the mentally retarded; to help with the local childrens’ home?

    what day do they come together to help do repairs for their aged and the aged in the whole community who are indigent?

    what day ….. ????

    I suppose if you fill up your time with recreational activities and prayer meetings, you find you have no time left for others

  72. New Rule in effect for this post

    For any further insults that I get from the Collierville watchers, I may post a screen shot from the supposedly super secret Facebook group.

  73. I have a sincere question that I’d like answered sincerely please:

    What, in your opinion, is appropriate for convicted offenders (sex or otherwise) when it comes to being involved in a church? Do you believe they should be allowed to attend, but not volunteer? Do you think they should not be allowed to attend at all? Do you think if they attend and the church leadership knows their conviction history they should inform the entire church of said history? Someone earlier posed some suggestions that offenders are always attended to during services and in bathrooms etc. Is this “good enough”? What is appropriate from a societal perspective when someone has, according to the law, served their time and paid their dues? Do we believe that the legal system’s justice is not sufficient and thus must enforce a societal system of justice as well? Are they allowed back into society at all? Should they be able to shop in stores or allowed at public events where there are likely people in the same “victim group” as their previous victim(s)? If this is allowed, why is a church or worship center/volunteer arrangement not allowed? Please answer sincerely and not snarkily. Thanks!

  74. More…

    “After he finished truth-trickling to Karen and she finally got a partial idea of the real scope of the situation, they returned home in disgrace. She began annulment proceedings immediately. Karen fully expected her home church, quaintly called The Village Church (TVC), to come down on her husband like a hatful of rusted hammers and to support her in ensuring that the church’s kids were safe. I mean, for real now, what kind of Christians would take children’s safety less than mortally seriously or demand that anyone stay married to an active pedophile?
    Well, apparently TVC’s leaders, that’s who.”

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2016/11/27/why-shepherds-really-tend-sheep/

  75. Christiane wrote:

    what days do they open their soup kitchen?
    what day do they visit with people in nursing homes…
    [etc]

    All very good questions.

    (And in happier days, a good set of questions for any healthy congregation to be asking itself, often.)

  76. dee wrote:

    I have now seen the evidence that appears to prove that the wife of convicted rapist Timothy Heinz is a member of the super secret Collierville watch group.

    Ooohhhhh. Isn’t that a bit like having the accused criminal’s wife serve on the jury?

  77. “Goodrich was sentenced to 13 years in prison, much to the dismay of some of his supporters.”

    I am doubly troubled by this situation. As if the sins of Goodrich weren’t enough, he has “supporters”! The problem with deception is you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.

  78. I admit a frankly wicked humor over this thread. In fact, it isn’t funny. You start out with a “christian” church that is enabling paedosexual predation, and then you end up with some of these same people on this thread attempting to justify this kind of behavior and cover up child sex abuse. What is wrong with “christianity” today, and is it any wonder that the church is held increasingly in disdain? Christ have mercy.

  79. JeffT wrote:

    Why do so many churches find it necessary to defend child molesters in their midst, and so vehemently? Instead of making their church a safe place for children, they seem intent on willingly offering up their children as victims. It is sick, sick, sick.

    It would be better for them to hang a millstone around their neck and cast them into the sea.

  80. “Words like “a good person” and “man’s law” (as opposed to what, God’s law?)”

    There are none good, no not one. Unless he repents, he will face man’s law now and God’s law later … hell is hot and hell is long. Grace doesn’t cover unrepentant sin.

  81. @ Nancy2:
    looks like ….. insular, self-protective, co-opting the recreation and the socializing that the membership might be doing with the whole town community so now it’s ‘one-stop shopping’ for social needs and recreational needs …. the outside ‘world’ is no longer needed so why be bothered with it?

    yes, there ARE cultic isolating features present

  82. @ Memphian Guest:
    Let’s just clear the air from an ethical and legal perspective: Allowing a sexual predator to participate in any aspect of the worship service is imbecilic. It is roughly analogous to playing with fireworks while adjusting the bleed-off valve on jet-fuel refinery, only less intelligent and less ethical.

  83. @ Nancy2:
    To make matters worse, they now have children. At least one of them is a little girl which means something in this situation.

  84. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    What is wrong with “christianity” today, and is it any wonder that the church is held increasingly in disdain?

    You were right to use a small “c” in “christianity”. I call it “christianity lite” … much of the church (small “c”) has taken the salt out of salt.

  85. @ dee:
    Agreed. Anonymous poses some very good questions. I would dare say that every church in America may be faced with the situations raised by A’s inquiries. I look forward to your post addressing this.

  86. Memphian Guest wrote:

    they tried to argue band members on platform are not leading the flock in worship which is a ridiculous claim

    Then don’t call them a worship “team.”

  87. Balanced One wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Fifth- Is the predator’s wife a member of this watch group?
    Sixth- I understand that this watch group is Christian. Is calling me a *loon* a Christian response?

    – his wife is a member of the watch group
    – As far as I know, the group does not have the designation of being a Christian group.

    if this WERE a ‘real’ Church ‘watch group’, and I had teens in the Church, I would feel better if the parents of the victim were on the watch group instead of the wife of the perpetrator….. like ‘conlict of interest’ major ?

  88. Christiane wrote:

    , I would feel better if the parents of the victim were on the watch group instead of the wife of the perpetrator…..

    Yes. This makes no sense at all to me either.

  89. Dee, I am sorry you have had to deal with such abuse. I wonder how much these attacks are coming from a person (wife?) filled with shame, fear and desire for it to “go away”. Maybe the sex offender was able to downplay the situation to his wife as a “weak moment” of temptation with a younger “woman”. If they have children together, she may have wanted to preserve the fantasy that it wasn’t “that bad” or it only happened once.
    How long were they at the church before the leaders found out?? The response looks like a irrational knee-jerk reaction to try and make it go away. (i.e. Wife wants to sweep it under the rug and/or protect their own kids and the church has bought into this excuse and also don’t want to look bad). I assume the rape victim was not known by the members of their current church. (Therefore easier to depersonalize). Unfortunately they are shooting the messenger!!- You. Instead, the offender should walk in repentance and take continual responsibility for the fallout due to his crime. He is “hiding” and letting others lash out to defend him and let you take the blame for the problem.
    The sex offender could make it all stop if he wanted to, but by silently standing by and letting others pour their anger on you-he is let off the hook. Dee, I hope you know that you and Deb provide a great service for so many people. Sadly it puts you in the line of fire if toes are stepped on. It is my belief (but I don’t know), there is so much shame absorbed by the family by the offender’s past actions, that you probably present a tremendous threat to their carefully constructed defense to protect the status quo. This is just my opinion.
    It is irrational and unfair. I hope the ones who are attacking you will quickly wake up to the true issue. You are both very loved!!

  90. dee wrote:

    I have never, ever experienced anything like this in 7 years of blogging.

    Where there’s smoke, there’s usually fire.

    I felt like pastors Scott Payne and Chris Collier had extreme reactions from the start, to the men who came forward to talk about their abuse at the hands of youth worker Chris Carwile, as detailed in this post, http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/11/09/testimonies-of-sexual-abuse-by-a-youth-worker-in-a-memphis-church/

    It is said that instead of responding to the men who contacted him, Payne contacted lawyers from the SBC who told him to “prepare for war.” It seems that everyone connected with the church has done just that- and they’ve taken the offensive. These brave men have come forward, taking a great risk and making themselves vulnerable, in the hope of protecting the next generation and helping the church to make changes to prevent this from happening again. The church should value them and see this as an opportunity for improvement.

    Maybe the SBC lawyers stirred up this hornet’s nest with their misguided advice- in “preparing” for war, they have stirred up a war. Or maybe there is more going on that explains why this group is thinking the best defense is a strong offense?

    The world is changing and the days that churches can keep crimes against children covered up are ending. They need to face this and embrace the light.

  91. Max wrote:

    “Goodrich was sentenced to 13 years in prison, much to the dismay of some of his supporters.”

    I am doubly troubled by this situation. As if the sins of Goodrich weren’t enough, he has “supporters”! The problem with deception is you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived.

    Look at all the letters of support submitted to the judge in the Dennis Hastert case. The fact he had been molesting boys -ruining their lives- didn’t seem to pierce through the fog of his supporters – in their minds, he was “a good man” who took part in Bible studies and prayed.

    I think that to many people, the victims are just invisible. They are not seen or heard, the reality of what has happened to them and the lasting damage done to them never comes into their sphere of vision. The predator, on the other hand, is visible and may be a very sociable person, very good at acting repentant and being deferential and supportive to their friends. The people only see one side of the situation.

    How do you make them aware of the reality? Especially when they are so defensive?

  92. I also want to acknowledge, as a follow-up to my previous questions, the lack of satisfactory “justice” that sexual offenses often garner; that many offenders do not “get what they deserve” from a legal standpoint. Admittedly, my emotional response is extremely negative when I think about being in a church with, much less interact with at a volunteer level, someone like Brock Turner or even his parents. I don’t want to say he is welcome at a church. I loathe those people, based on what we know about that situation. But how do we distinguish between true remorse and life change and not-that? Who do we continue to socially prosecute and who do we allow back into our lives? Whose repentance do we accept and who’s do we reject? What is consistent in these situations? Is it even important to be consistent? Again, I truly mean these questions. I do think some people deserve a second chance and an opportunity to be seen and known by qualities other than their offense. But which people deserve that and which ones don’t? Which offenders are forgivable and which ones aren’t? And who decides?

  93. siteseer wrote:

    The world is changing and the days that churches can keep crimes against children covered up are ending. They need to face this and embrace the light.

    someday, those abused children will grow up, and they will come to terms with what was done to them by perpetrators, and they will know that a part of getting past the horror is to speak out and bring the ‘protectors’ before the public so that the evil cannot ‘proceed’ without intervention ….

    that ‘war’ the SBC lawyers supposedly warned of had its origin in the darkness and in the silence that allowed a pastor to grant grazing rights to a predator without answering for it. . . .

    such ‘pastors’ need to be exposed …. for the harm they allowed to be done, and for the sake of those who still stand in harm’s way in that church

    No true shepherd ever knowingly permits a wolf to enter his fold. If he does so without letting the sheep know, then the “shepherd” is himself a wolf-enabler, not a shepherd. He now owns the slaughter that ensues.

    Such pastors should expect a ‘war’ …. if they have sowed the wind, they must now reap the whirlwind.

  94. Anonymous wrote:

    I have a sincere question that I’d like answered sincerely please

    In the church I attend, a registered sex offender would be identified when he/she applied to join a ministry involving children. We use a service that screens volunteers and employees alike. We also have training and oversight rules that help to protect both children and adults from any unidentified predators in our midst. The situation at Collierville is therefore extremely unlikely in my church–although all of us have to remain vigilant because predators are cunning.

    You are brimming over with compassion for this registered sex offender. By any chance do you have any compassion left over for the person’s past and future victims?

    On another topic, should a convicted bank robber be allowed to work unsupervised in a bank vault? Money is both necessary and ubiquitous. Who are we to judge whether a convicted bank robber might steal again? Shouldn’t we just be nice and let the person blend in and do as he pleases? Aren’t Christians supposed to trust?

  95. Anonymous wrote:

    I do think some people deserve a second chance and an opportunity to be seen and known by qualities other than their offense.

    What ‘second chance’ did the perpetrators give their victims?

    If a Church does not take full action to PROTECT it’s members, then it has failed them as a ‘Church’.

    If you are looking for a ‘middle way’ between isolating perpetrators and fully integrating them back into a church setting;
    my advice is to take the part of the innocent and work on their behalf and when you know that everything has been done to secure their safety, only then accept what remains that is reasonably a corollary of that safety …. sometimes, depending on what a perpetrator has done, it may be that they are better off NOT being in a community where they are tempted …. so that is another consideration.

    Please understand: the victims suffer …. and for many it is an on-going struggle …. a Church cannot take chances with the lives of innocent people, no.

  96. Anonymous wrote:

    But how do we distinguish between true remorse and life change and not-that? Who do we continue to socially prosecute and who do we allow back into our lives?

    You have made an excellent point here. By giving the sex offender a role that exposed him to potential victims, this church apparently failed to protect the sex offender.

  97. Memphian Guest wrote:

    Heinz is a bassist. Memphis is the birth place of rock n roll and is called Blues City. There is NO shortage of bassists in the greater Memphis area. Something else is going on here.

    I can tell you as a bassist that most guitar players can play bass as well. It’s not that hard to play bass at a competent level.

  98. You are brimming over with compassion for this registered sex offender. By any chance do you have any compassion left over for the person’s past and future victims?
    Do not dare assume I don’t have compassion or empathy for victims as I am one.

    On another topic, should a convicted bank robber be allowed to work unsupervised in a bank vault? Money is both necessary and ubiquitous. Who are we to judge whether a convicted bank robber might steal again? Shouldn’t we just be nice and let the person blend in and do as he pleases? Aren’t Christians supposed to trust?
    Thanks for the snarkiness. Also, a false equivalency in the case of Heinz (sp?)

  99. @ Christiane:
    Christiane wrote:

    What ‘second chance’ did the perpetrators give their victims?

    Agreed. I am a victim. My life was changed forever and I don’t know who I would’ve been had it never happened. I think some people are truly remorseful and change. What is to be done?

  100. Anonymous wrote:

    Also, a false equivalency in the case of Heinz (sp?)

    Okay. Why don’t you ask Heinz if he’ll baby sit your children, nieces, etc…. if they are old enough not to need a sitter, maybe Heinz could spend some time with them teaching them to play bass?

  101. Friend wrote:

    By giving the sex offender a role that exposed him to potential victims, this church apparently failed to protect the sex offender.

    Snarky and unhelpful response. As I posed earlier, “What, in your opinion, is appropriate for convicted offenders (sex or otherwise) when it comes to being involved in a church? Do you believe they should be allowed to attend, but not volunteer? Do you think they should not be allowed to attend at all? Do you think if they attend and the church leadership knows their conviction history they should inform the entire church of said history? Someone earlier posed some suggestions that offenders are always attended to during services and in bathrooms etc. Is this “good enough”? What is appropriate from a societal perspective when someone has, according to the law, served their time and paid their dues? Do we believe that the legal system’s justice is not sufficient and thus must enforce a societal system of justice as well? Are they allowed back into society at all? Should they be able to shop in stores or allowed at public events where there are likely people in the same “victim group” as their previous victim(s)? If this is allowed, why is a church or worship center/volunteer arrangement not allowed? Please answer sincerely and not snarkily.”

  102. Anonymous wrote:

    I do think some people deserve a second chance and an opportunity to be seen and known by qualities other than their offense. But which people deserve that and which ones don’t? Which offenders are forgivable and which ones aren’t? And who decides?

    There are plenty of resources out there for churches, such as through Dove’s Nest or Churches’ Child Protection Advisory Service to set up accountability systems.

    But hiding the information from the church is not part of any of those systems.

  103. Friend wrote:

    You are brimming over with compassion for this registered sex offender. By any chance do you have any compassion left over for the person’s past and future victims?

    I think this is an unfair characterization of Anonymous. I never got the impression that Anonymous was gushing with compassion for offenders at the expense of victims. The questions are good, and not easy to answer. I had to face this in a very personal way when, through my work, I had to be in contact with an offender who had not yet been convicted. It’s a long story that I’ve partly written about at various times on TWW treads. I recently commented on it in this thead: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/11/22/highpoint-church-memphis-has-a-convicted-statutory-rapist-leading-worship/#comment-295207.

    My experience with this particular offender gave me more compassion for victims, not less. In fact, my motivation for coming alongside this particular offender was my concern for potential future victims. I wanted to do what I could to make sure he was getting the help he needed so as not to put himself in the position where he could fall back into old habits. He is doing great right now – staying away from kids and surrounding himself with who people keep watch over him and tell him the truth. He does not want to be associated with any church or other organization that does not have strong child safety measures in place, partly because he does not want to have opportunity to be falsely accused based on his past. I think he is about as safe as a registered offender can be, but I would NEVER agree with him being in any job, club, or organization where he could have easy access to children. Whether or not I made a difference for him, I do know that my motivation was honorable.

    That process put a lot of similar questions into my head – questions that I never would have considered otherwise. For example, why does our legal system release offenders back into society rather than locking them up for life with no parole? Why does it prosecute some but never put them behind bars? Should released offenders be allowed into any Christian fellowship? If so, what types? The probability of an offender finding a Christian fellowship with no children is astonishingly small. I know this to be true because prior to his release into a very large city several hours from where we live, my wife and I searched long and hard for Christian ministries, halfway houses, or reintegration facilities. There is very little out there. There are many Christians who would like to see them getting ministered to, but “not here.” The result is that there is almost nowhere that they can get healthy Christian fellowship. Is that good or bad for society? If there is any possibility for them to repent, is it better for society for them to be accepted into Christian fellowship with certain caveats and controls, or is it better for society for them to be excluded from churches. Does involvement with Christian fellowship make offenders more or less likely to re-offend? The bottom line is I believe we need to think through the unintended consequences to make sure that we are not being “penny-wise, pound-foolish.”

    There are many good question to ask about the role of registered offenders in church. The one positive thing we can say about registered offenders is we know who they are. They will show up in background checks, which makes it a bit easier to contain them. I worry more about the offenders who are smart enough to never get caught because they will never show up in a background check. This is where I believe churches need to focus their efforts. Churches need to be made safe for children so that even the “best” offenders find no opportunity to victimize children. The recent posts on TWW tell heartbreaking stories of churches who don’t understand the gravity of victimization of children, and who underestimate the work required for offenders to repent.

    I’m looking forward to Dee’s post. I know it will be thought provoking.

  104. ishy wrote:

    There are plenty of resources out there for churches, such as through Dove’s Nest or Churches’ Child Protection Advisory Service to set up accountability systems.

    But hiding the information from the church is not part of any of those systems.

    Thank you for this response. I do not know how churches should deal with convicted sex offenders who have been dealt with according to the law and are living lawfully and I’m going to read those resources.

  105. dee wrote:

    To make matters worse, they now have children. At least one of them is a little girl which means something in this situation.

    It appears to me that Heinz has 4 children–two from former wife PL, 1 from former wife AM, and 1 from his current wife AP. Two of them are girls. I do not know if there are any other former wives or children.

  106. Anonymous wrote:

    I do think some people deserve a second chance and an opportunity to be seen and known by qualities other than their offense. But which people deserve that and which ones don’t? Which offenders are forgivable and which ones aren’t? And who decides?

    It is pretty simple. Anyone can be forgiven if they repent, accept the consequences, live life in a way that shows repentance. BUT it does not mean they are trusted again in the area in which they were convicted of a crime. A sex offender should never be given a chance to offend again and that does mean limiting their access to children! You simply don’t take chances with children.

  107. Anonymous wrote:

    Snarky and unhelpful response.

    This response was not snarky at all. What are you reading into the response that is snarky?

  108. Anonymous wrote:

    Do we believe that the legal system’s justice is not sufficient and thus must enforce a societal system of justice as well?

    When it comes to sex offenders, no. Serving time is not enough. That is why their is a sex offender’s registry that continues a convicts consequences past the time served.

  109. Christiane wrote:

    if this WERE a ‘real’ Church ‘watch group’

    This is NOT a real Church Watch Group. It’s a Facebook group. Facebook doesn’t care what kind of group you put together on Facebook. As far as I know, and I’ve been in and managed Facebook groups for years, there are no laws concerning content of Facebook groups specifically (but normal laws regarding libel do apply). Anything that can be put on Facebook can be subpoenaed for use in court even if it’s in a “private” group. Any rules for a FB group are set by the owner of the group, not by Facebook or whatever some local police officer suggested.

    A real “church” watch group would be associated with a particular church so that readers would be able to find out the biases of that group. A real watch group of any kind would not be secret. It’s preposterous to think that a group exists to warn the public about predators, but the general public is not allowed to know that the group exists.

  110. Anonymous wrote:

    I think some people are truly remorseful and change.

    I think it possible that people CAN be truly remorseful, but there are certain ‘weaknesses’ that don’t go ‘away’ or change, and if the person has injured innocent people as a result of his ‘weakness’, and his injury was to minors, then there is a greater possibility of recidivism. Should this person RETURN to the same kind of setting where he WAS tempted, he would be sinning. He would be putting himself into a situation that we call in my Church ‘the near occasion of sin’ …. that is, willingly returning to a place of known temptation, and if that place is a Church with families and young people and children, then it is a ‘target rich environment’ and a truly repentant perpetrator would NOT return to temptation willingly.

    It’s that simple, and that complex. Does the person deserve ministry? Absolutely. Does the person deserve to get that ministry in a place where he might be strongly tempted? No. No, he doesn’t. He gave up that possibility when he injured an innocent in a similar environment.

    There are some sins for which you can be forgiven, but where you must be ‘watchful’ that you do not place yourself once again in the way of temptation. As we pray to God: ‘and lead us not into temptation’, then we also know that we ourselves are NOT disobey by seeking temptation out.

  111. Bridget wrote:

    Anyone can be forgiven if they repent, accept the consequences, live life in a way that shows repentance. BUT … don’t take chances with children

    I think every TWW commenter would agree that no one who is truly repentant is beyond forgiveness. Forgive a child abuser? Yes! Put them in ministry? NO!

  112. @ Anonymous:
    This is a strong warning.

    I thought you earlier question was worthy of an answer. I have read the responses of those who have answered you and you blow them off as being snarky.

    They are not snarky, nor will be my response. They are realistic and born of people who know a great deal about this subject.

    I know from your IP address that you are a local to this situation. I have had it with the attacks of people who wish to defend a rapist of a young girl and pretend he is *cured* because some pastor says he is.

    If you do not take the comments of people with thoughtfulness and grace, you will be banned from commenting further.

  113. Anonymous wrote:

    Which offenders are forgivable and which ones aren’t? And who decides?

    I think it’s important not to confuse forgiveness with granting further opportunity.

    You’ve raised some good questions and they are questions being grappled with in other religions, as well.

    My own feeling is that we need to protect children first and most importantly. Sex offenders can be forgiven -that’s something between them and God- and only the persons they have offended against can decide whether to forgive them or not- but that doesn’t mean it’s good or healthy for them to be in positions where they will be subject to temptation. It’s not fair for them to expect secrecy about their past.

  114. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    A real watch group of any kind would not be secret. It’s preposterous to think that a group exists to warn the public about predators, but the general public is not allowed to know that the group exists.

    Yeah- especially when the wife of one is part of their group.

  115. Bridget wrote:

    This response was not snarky at all. What are you reading into the response that is snarky?

    He is from that part of the world and is attempting to sound reasonable but then he attacks. He is now in moderation and I will deal with his question tomorrow. This weekend has been ridiculous, dealing with some yahoos who pretend they really care about children when all they want to do is protect something.

  116. Anonymous wrote:

    Do you believe they should be allowed to attend, but not volunteer?

    Any church worker who stands on a worship platform – whether they be paid staff or a volunteer – performs a leadership role whether that is intended or not. When they are given visibility by the church, they assume a position of influence; they become trusted leaders in the minds of those who see them up front. That’s just the way it is. Gifts and talents are important, but integrity and Christian character are far more critical than how talented one is. At the end of the day, character stands above talent. Our character has been shaped by our past; bad characters can only be changed by the blood of Christ. I trust that church leaders vetted Mr. Heinz with this in mind, rather than how good he could play a guitar. The question remains – should he have been given a visible role in church knowing that some day, reports such as this would emerge and have to be addressed, causing confusion within the church and concern without?

  117. Anonymous wrote:

    Do you think if they attend and the church leadership knows their conviction history they should inform the entire church of said history? Someone earlier posed some suggestions that offenders are always attended to during services and in bathrooms etc. Is this “good enough”? What is appropriate from a societal perspective when someone has, according to the law, served their time and paid their dues?

    I’ve posted this link before but I want to post it again because I think it really nails the core issue with abuse that goes on in secret-
    http://forums.our-place-online.net/index.php?/topic/6864-7-reasons-women-stay-in-abusive-relationships-long/&page=1
    Scroll down the page to #7- He Lies. Substitute sex predation for wife abuse as you read it and you will see the issue.

    In the case of abuse that goes on privately while the perpetrator is living a life that appears normal, you may have more than someone who has lapsed into a sin. You may have someone who is living a lie. You may have someone who puts on a public face and lives and relates to others as someone they are not. When a perpetrator becomes skillful at this, how can others gauge whether they are worthy of forgiveness or have progressed to the point where they are trustworthy around children? I don’t believe that others can ever make these calls. Even those close to an abuser (including spouses) can be fooled. Who wants to take on the liability of saying “I’ve vetted this person and they’re ok now” ?

    The only answer is to put in place systems that protect children, regardless.

    As far as how sex offenders can be ministered to, maybe we need to define ministry. What must ministry entail?

  118. Ann wrote:

    nstead, the offender should walk in repentance and take continual responsibility for the fallout due to his crime. He is “hiding” and letting others lash out to defend him and let you take the blame for the problem.

    This is an excellent observation!

  119. Ann wrote:

    The sex offender could make it all stop if he wanted to, but by silently standing by and letting others pour their anger on you-he is let off the hook.

    Excellent. Also thank you for your kindness. I never thought I would be be battling a so called watch group over sex abuse.

  120. dee wrote:

    Anon wrote:

    In your rambling you have done nothing but hinder any good a predator watch group could accomplish. You should be ashamed of your own behavior because the way you have went about this is more than wrong.

    Do you all see what I am dealing with here? What have I done wrong? I have reported an old crime of a rapist who is on the TN sex offender registry list. This make no sense whatsoever including your wish for repercussions. Why?

    Ridiculous!

    Substance, please. Substance?????????????????

  121. Anon wrote:

    The problem is that in this day and age anyone can put anything in print. Unfortunately that includes you. I am in no way condoning a sex offender. But to attack someone, by name, that is simple covering all the bases on a very inflammatory subject to insure no backlash is idiotic and infantile. In your rambling you have done nothing but hinder any good a predator watch group could accomplish. You should be ashamed of your own behavior because the way you have went about this is more than wrong. I understand you are emotionally invested through your own history, but you have fumbled this. I hope you feel the reprecussions.

    What, pray tell are you talking about?

    They discovered someone who has been convicted of aggravated sexual assault.

    This information is already public.

    This website has reposted it.

    If you would please be clear about what it is your are claiming WW did that was wrong, or how they should have gone about it, please say so.

    Otherwise, it just looks like you don’t like what WW did for some reason.

  122. Hey,

    I am Anonymous!

    Has someone else adopted my moniker?

    The previous posts, other than the last two, are from someone else.

  123. @ Anonymous:
    Hi Mr Nice Anonymous

    I am having some not so nice anonymous folks contact me. I have needed to put them into moderation.
    Could you add something to the end of the your Anonymous name so I can get our filter to let it through?

  124. @ Ken F:
    Thank you for this response. For someone to say that I don’t have compassion for victims and that I’m “brimming” with compassion for offenders was, if I’m totally honest, a very hurtful implication/accusation to read as I am a victim myself. Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful response and for hearing “me” in my questions.

  125. Wow!! All this makes me even more extremely concerned about the children and youth at this church.

    I agree with the other comments:

    Perhaps the information coming into the light has touched on deeper evils in the church community.

    Have TWW and WatchKeep disturbed a possible cover-up of grooming and sexual abuse happening now in the congregation?

    From what Memphian Guest has said, the place sounds like great concealment for predator networking.

    If youth are being coerced through grooming, threats, or even blackmail, I pray they will tell many trustworthy people about what’s going on in their lives. RIGHT NOW!!

    Remember how TT gets people to tweet, text, and post for him? Maybe the same thing is happening here.

  126. Amy Smith wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    Thank you for this response. I do not know how churches should deal with convicted sex offenders who have been dealt with according to the law and are living lawfully and I’m going to read those resources.

    Guest post by Simon Bass, CEO of CCPAS (Churches’ Child Protection Advisory Service:

    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/08/an-open-letter-to-every-senior-pastor.html?m=1

    Thank you for this. I haven’t had a chance to read it all yet, but I think it is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

  127. Max wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    Do you believe they should be allowed to attend, but not volunteer?

    Any church worker who stands on a worship platform – whether they be paid staff or a volunteer – performs a leadership role whether that is intended or not. When they are given visibility by the church, they assume a position of influence; they become trusted leaders in the minds of those who see them up front. That’s just the way it is. Gifts and talents are important, but integrity and Christian character are far more critical than how talented one is. At the end of the day, character stands above talent. Our character has been shaped by our past; bad characters can only be changed by the blood of Christ. I trust that church leaders vetted Mr. Heinz with this in mind, rather than how good he could play a guitar. The question remains – should he have been given a visible role in church knowing that some day, reports such as this would emerge and have to be addressed, causing confusion within the church and concern without?

    Your points are what runs through my head as well.

  128. Bridget wrote:

    BUT it does not mean they are trusted again in the area in which they were convicted of a crime. A sex offender should never be given a chance to offend again and that does mean limiting their access to children! You simply don’t take chances with children.

    Not only is this common sense, it has been at the core of corporate governance classes in the secular realm for at least 30 years. Why are Christians so dense about these things sometimes?

  129. siteseer wrote:

    n the case of abuse that goes on privately while the perpetrator is living a life that appears normal, you may have more than someone who has lapsed into a sin. You may have someone who is living a lie. You may have someone who puts on a public face and lives and relates to others as someone they are not. When a perpetrator becomes skillful at this, how can others gauge whether they are worthy of forgiveness or have progressed to the point where they are trustworthy around children? I don’t believe that others can ever make these calls. Even those close to an abuser (including spouses) can be fooled. Who wants to take on the liability of saying “I’ve vetted this person and they’re ok now” ?

    The only answer is to put in place systems that protect children, regardless.

    As far as how sex offenders can be ministered to, maybe we need to define ministry. What must ministry entail?

    Yes, exactly. Who can know who is who and which is which? And I don’t know who should take on that liability. Of course systems should be in place to protect children, but how does a church do this outside the realm of the children’s ministries which *usually* have safeguards in place. When one volunteers outside of the youth ministries, but are still exposed to children because they are under the same roof, what ought to be done and in what roles, if any, should sex offenders be allowed?

  130. Christiane wrote:

    if this WERE a ‘real’ Church ‘watch group’, and I had teens in the Church, I would feel better if the parents of the victim were on the watch group instead of the wife of the perpetrator….. like ‘conlict of interest’ major ?

    It’s as though Mrs. Fox, married to Mr. Fox (who regularly likes to raid the farmer’s chicken coop), is a member or moderator of the “Safety for Farmer Fred’s Chickens” Facebook group, of whom most of the members are chickens.

  131. Anonymous wrote:

    Who do we continue to socially prosecute and who do we allow back into our lives?

    You’re missing such an essential point: it’s not about THEM, it’s not about THEIR social persecution. According to what Jesus said about those who harm and mislead children, they’re lucky to be alive rather than in a watery grave–Jesus literally said that, it’s in multiple Gospels. In what sort of bizarre upside down universe does one call themselves “Christian” and refer to their fellowship by Christ’s name and yet utterly ignore what He specifically said about situations like this and instead wring their hands over the social costs that the child sexual abuser will face?

    Frankly, I’d call it not Christian at all and I’d assume that those who’s knee jerk reaction is “But what of the social costs to the abuser?” not like a Christian at all based on their fruits. How about “What of the costs to the victim, the one who was abused and psychically destroyed and now sees their former tormentor up on the stage and held up as an example of goodness by the church?” Do they count? Or just damn them, why can’t they get over it and celebrate the “victory” with the rest of the church?

    They’ve done something that has scarred a child for life, they should be thankful that they are even allowed to live. If you don’t get that, I don’t want to hear about your faith, I call bull–it’s a lie.

  132. @ Christiane:

    I too agree with okrapod. It’s just common ordinary good horse-sense.
    I also think that when there’s conflict with what’s supposedly Christian this, that, and the other, good sense should prevail.

  133. If Timothy Heinz cares one whit about anything other than himself, why doesn’t he come on here and shut down his defenders and say “Look folks, what I did years ago was evil, it hurt a young lady greatly and she’ll probably never get over it, it may have damaged her relationship with Christ, maybe destroyed it. I was spitting in the face of God, and I didn’t get what I deserved, I only got a light sentence and put on a predators list. Stop trying to defend and minimize the evil I’ve done.”

    Until I see that, I have to think he’s a coward and doesn’t know the meaning of repentance.

  134. And ATTN Anon:
    Nancy2 wrote:

    “*You cannot post links to blogs or express your views on businesses or people without a news story or reliable source link. Slander and harassment of any kind is not allowed here. This is illegal and police reports can, will and have been filed, so just don’t. ”
    – – – – – –
    I guess Tennessee criminal records is not considered to be a reliable source.

    If I am remembering things correctly, in the last ten or more years, main stream media have broke big news stories that were first reported by bloggers on blogs – or else, blogs added new information to a major news story that the MSM relied upon.

    For example:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but – didn’t the main stream media first learn about Karen Root’s ordeal at TVC when Amy at Watchkeep and/or Wartburg Watch blogged about that?

    I understand that not all blogs are accurate or trustworthy, but some are, and some mainstream media use those blogs as resources.

  135. BY the way, Anonymous, I have a post in moderation that I’d like the first paragraph to stand, but in retrospect, regret the last two. Still think it’s nonsense to ask “What of the social costs for the perp”, but I went too far questioning your faith, and area over which I have no expertise.

  136. @ Anonymous:

    I think it’s similar to dealing with a verbal abuser in the family, or a drug addict or an alcoholic.

    You can love these people from a distance. You don’t have to permit them access to your life or home.

    You wouldn’t probably want to give your liquor cabinet key to a family member who is an alcoholic or leave them alone if you know you have beer in your fridge.

    Child molesters don’t have to attend a church. They can watch church services on TV or over the internet.

    Adults from that church can visit that pedophile at his home or a restaurant or some other public place to do Bible study together.

    I don’t see that it’s necessary for a pedophile to attend the same brick and mortar building that everyone else goes to.

    I don’t think some people are every fully healed of their problem, whether it’s alcohol addiction or being a pedophile, or whatever it may be.

    I’m always puzzled by the grumpy church folks who show up to this blog every time Dee does a post exposing a church who is covering for a pedo, to scream, “Don’t you people believe in grace or that God can heal a pedo of pedophilia”.

    I was not supernaturally healed of my depression or codependency, in spite of reading the Bible, praying for a healing, and having faith in God.

    To get over that stuff, I had to turn to books by psychologists – prayer did not heal me.

    I still deal with anxiety to this day. Prayer hasn’t healed me of that, either. Maybe I’ll have to live with anxiety for the rest of my life.

    Someone in my family died of cancer and other things, in spite of my family’s prayers for her.

    Maybe God can heal people of ‘X,’ ‘Y,’ and ‘Z’, but for some reason, he chooses not to. I don’t know why not.

    I would not risk the safety of kids to prove some kind of theological point to myself or other people about God, healing, grace, and forgiveness concerning pedophiles.

  137. Law Prof wrote:

    If Timothy Heinz cares one whit about anything other than himself, why doesn’t he come on here and shut down his defenders and say “Look folks, what I did years ago was evil, it hurt a young lady greatly and she’ll probably never get over it, it may have damaged her relationship with Christ, maybe destroyed it. I was spitting in the face of God, and I didn’t get what I deserved, I only got a light sentence and put on a predators list. Stop trying to defend and minimize the evil I’ve done.”
    Until I see that, I have to think he’s a coward and doesn’t know the meaning of repentance.

    Darn straight!

  138. Anonymous wrote:

    Thanks for the snarkiness. Also, a false equivalency in the case of Heinz (sp?)

    I didn’t feel it was a false equivalency.

    I just used a similar analogy in my post above before reading his (or hers).

    The nature of pedophilia being what it is, one cannot trust having a pedo around children.

    Interview With Dr. Anna Salter – Predators Among Us
    https://www.sott.net/article/272019-Behind-the-Headlines-Predators-Among-Us-Interview-With-Dr-Anna-Salter

    Salter speaking:

    Dr Salter: Oh, that’s pretty common. I have had offenders tell me that they love churches because people are more gullible in churches, that they look for the best in everyone.

    You know the real, oh gosh I don’t know the word, but the truth is that offenders, predators don’t just prey on our weaknesses, they prey on our strengths as well.

    They prey on the fact that many people are trusting, that they do look for the best in people, that they don’t consider the worst in people.

    And those are natural victims for them. Most of them are not actually looking for a challenge, they’re looking for the easiest victim.

  139. Bridget wrote:

    When it comes to sex offenders, no. Serving time is not enough. That is why their is a sex offender’s registry that continues a convicts consequences past the time served.

    Don’t a lot of states or cities have laws that sex offenders cannot live within X miles of schools and cannot hand out candy on Halloween etc?

    Don’t they also have to let officials know at all times what their address of residence is?

  140. At about the same time Dr Fundystan was posting his reference to scripture we were visit Mabry Mill on the parkway. We saw some millstones. My husband used the opportunity to explain to our son. ” this what Jesus was talking about when He said” … It would be better…” I take it this is the scripture meant to be heard and confirmed today. Let him who has ears to hear…

  141. Anonymous wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    Thank you for this response. For someone to say that I don’t have compassion for victims and that I’m “brimming” with compassion for offenders was, if I’m totally honest, a very hurtful implication/accusation to read as I am a victim myself. Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful response and for hearing “me” in my questions.

    I also thank Ken F. for the thoughtful comment.

    I am sorry that you were victimized, and I certainly did not mean to hurt you in any way.

    At the time I wrote, I did not know that two or more people were writing as Anon and/or Anonymous (that is unusual on TWW). Weirdly, there’s a stack of protests here against TWW’s efforts to warn people that a registered sex offender is on a church worship team. If you read the comments—including your set of ten questions—there’s much emphasis on the burden the offender carries, without much reference to the reason why.

    My responses were absolutely not intended to be snarky, unhelpful, or characterized by false equivalency. I absolutely mean it when I say that, by giving the sex offender a role that exposed him to potential victims, this church apparently failed to protect the sex offender. The church set this man up for public exposure by putting him into contact with potential victims. The church could have prevented all of this. Instead, the leaders put him on the worship team and kept mum, because they have the power.

  142. Daisy wrote:

    Adults from that church can visit that pedophile at his home or a restaurant or some other public place to do Bible study together.
    I don’t see that it’s necessary for a pedophile to attend the same brick and mortar building that everyone else goes to.

    Frankly, this sounds like a healthier way to have Christian fellowship than:

    1). Attending a brick and mortar building,
    2). Watching a group of people preen about, singing loudly and not-quite-on-key, blasting your senses with the amps,
    3). Listening to the leader of said “worship” band grab the mic and insinuate that if you don’t lift your hands in adoration while his crew assaults your senses, that something is somehow wrong with YOU,
    3). Hearing a series of announcements about all the great things that are being done in the “name of God” and with your money, and this is done with all the sincerity and forthrightness of the average corporate annual report (not the financial statements, mind you, which are audited by an independent firm, but rather the fluff and puffery and unbridled nonsense from the senior management that accompanies it)
    4). Then watching someone take their space under the spotlight, tell a remarkably bad joke, launch into some inane nonsense only peripherally related to the Bible, plucking out a few out-of-context scriptures to support some message that at bottom either establishes how dadgone wonderful you are (so keep coming back to fill the collection plates) or how downright awful you are (so keep coming back for more abuse), but in every event establishes how the speaker has the right to your income, your assets and your obedience.
    5). Then finally, with a deep sigh, heading home and trying to pretend you just got a dose of the Spirit of God when in reality you’re only trying to wash the bad taste of subtle abuse out of your mouth.

  143. dee wrote:

    @ Anonymous:
    This is a strong warning.

    I thought you earlier question was worthy of an answer. I have read the responses of those who have answered you and you blow them off as being snarky.

    They are not snarky, nor will be my response. They are realistic and born of people who know a great deal about this subject.

    I know from your IP address that you are a local to this situation. I have had it with the attacks of people who wish to defend a rapist of a young girl and pretend he is *cured* because some pastor says he is.

    If you do not take the comments of people with thoughtfulness and grace, you will be banned from commenting further.

    Ok.

    First of all, I have thanked the people (most of them I think) who answered my questions sincerely and in ways that were helpful to what I think is a worthy conversation. I do think there were sarcastic (ie snarky) comments towards me, which obviously triggered a negative response. (You disagree with that and that’s OK). However, there is one comment about which I wonder if I misunderstood completely though… Nonetheless, when someone suggests I have compassion for offenders but not for victims, it’s rightly triggering as I am a victim myself. When someone snarkily (yes, snarkily) suggests I allow the convicted sex offender to babysit my kids or teach them bass or whatever as a way to challenge my humanity or comments (or whatever their intention was) yes, that is also rightly triggering. I NEVER made ANY defense or suggestion that this person be ALLOWED to be alone with ANYONE much less a child or that he shouldn’t suffer the consequences of his actions. Again, that is an incredibly triggering thing to say to anyone, but most especially to a victim. You may disagree about the tone behind that person’s comment, but it seemed clear to me. Even the bank robbery hypothetical was condescending for the same reasons stated before. (But in case it is not clear, I am NOT in anyway suggesting a convicted “but remorseful/repentant/whatever/any kind of sex offender be allowed under ANY circumstances to be involved in youth ministry or ministry to children! There are MANY OTHER volunteer situations that do not directly involve children beyond the fact that there are generally children present in churches and it is THOSE situations that ALL of my questions and comments have been about). My questions and comments aren’t seated in ignorance, naivete or defensiveness. I’m WELL acquainted with what happens when a child is sexually violated and what CONTINUES to happen for the rest of his/her life. Also, when people cherry-pick comments I made and respond to them out of the context and spirit of the rest of my comments it’s tough. I’m sure that will happen with this comment too, but c’est la vie.

    Secondly, I hope you are not implying or accusing me of defending “a rapist of a young girl and pretend he is *cured* because some pastor says he is.” I’m sure you’ve encountered those kinds of people, but to imply that is what I’m doing is again, pretty hurtful.

    Some people on here have linked or suggested some [what I assume are] really good resources for how to deal with convicted sex offenders in places of worship. I really look forward to reading what people much smarter and more experienced than me have written and established on the subject. It seems like a complicated situation for a church, but maybe not. (Again, I’m NOT talking about children or youth ministry. That’s obviously VERY clear-cut. So please don’t make assumptions about something that I’m not saying). I look forward to your post tomorrow. Being long on diagnosis and short on cure is common, but it is not ultimately beneficial for anyone. I hope all of this leads to A LOT of reform and how churches function considering these issues.

  144. Law Prof wrote:

    but in every event establishes how the speaker has the right to your income, your assets and your obedience.

    So true.

  145. Ken F wrote:

    The probability of an offender finding a Christian fellowship with no children is astonishingly small. I know this to be true because prior to his release into a very large city several hours from where we live, my wife and I searched long and hard for Christian ministries, halfway houses, or reintegration facilities. There is very little out there. There are many Christians who would like to see them getting ministered to, but “not here.” The result is that there is almost nowhere that they can get healthy Christian fellowship.

    Many times you have posted this story and many times I have posted the Mennonites in the U.S. and Canada’s Circles of Support and Accountability, for sex offenders (C.O.S.A.). It is a very time intensive process, very highly trained volunteers and the organization works with the sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agency, psychiatrist, etc.

    I don’t know if you have always missed my posts in response to your statements about this.
    The Mennonites minister to most sex offenders apart from the normal congregation.

    A rare exception would be the nature of a sex offense, say a sex offender registrant who was legally prosecuted for having sex with his girlfriend who was close in age to him.

  146. Daisy wrote:

    Don’t a lot of states or cities have laws that sex offenders cannot live within X miles of schools and cannot hand out candy on Halloween etc?

    Yes, and Tennessee is one of those states!

  147. Friend wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    Thank you for this response. For someone to say that I don’t have compassion for victims and that I’m “brimming” with compassion for offenders was, if I’m totally honest, a very hurtful implication/accusation to read as I am a victim myself. Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful response and for hearing “me” in my questions.

    I also thank Ken F. for the thoughtful comment.

    I am sorry that you were victimized, and I certainly did not mean to hurt you in any way.

    At the time I wrote, I did not know that two or more people were writing as Anon and/or Anonymous (that is unusual on TWW). Weirdly, there’s a stack of protests here against TWW’s efforts to warn people that a registered sex offender is on a church worship team. If you read the comments—including your set of ten questions—there’s much emphasis on the burden the offender carries, without much reference to the reason why.

    My responses were absolutely not intended to be snarky, unhelpful, or characterized by false equivalency. I absolutely mean it when I say that, by giving the sex offender a role that exposed him to potential victims, this church apparently failed to protect the sex offender. The church set this man up for public exposure by putting him into contact with potential victims. The church could have prevented all of this. Instead, the leaders put him on the worship team and kept mum, because they have the power.

    Your comment in bold is the one that I realized I might have completely misunderstood after I commented on it. I was thrown off by your statement about protecting the offender. That’s not exactly the angle most people think or talk about so I did totally think you were just being… I don’t know. Sarcastic? Thanks for taking a moment to clarify. I get what you’re saying. It’s weird for me for some reason to think about “protecting the offender” as a way of also protecting potential victims. So, I’m gonna have to chew on that. Thanks.

  148. Daisy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    When it comes to sex offenders, no. Serving time is not enough. That is why their is a sex offender’s registry that continues a convicts consequences past the time served.
    Don’t a lot of states or cities have laws that sex offenders cannot live within X miles of schools and cannot hand out candy on Halloween etc?
    Don’t they also have to let officials know at all times what their address of residence is?

    It depends, Daisy, on the nature of the sex crimes and the terms of parole/probation.
    A child pornographer at my ex-church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, is not prohibited from being near children because he wasn’t prosecuted for on-contact sexual abuse of children.

    I think that his sexual attraction to children makes him a danger and that the church was wrong to permit him to become a member or be near children. The pastors/elders even invited him to volunteer at a 5-day basketball camp for children, and didn’t tell all parents — including those who aren’t even church members and entrusted their children to the church! Just outrageous in my opinion and asking for trouble.

  149. Muff Potter wrote:

    I also think that when there’s conflict with what’s supposedly Christian this, that, and the other, good sense should prevail.

    If it were only that easy. Unfortunately “good sense” seems to be a rare commodity in far too many church leaders.

  150. Velour wrote:

    All,

    Reminder: It’s Dee’s birthday.

    What?! Happy Birthday, Dee! This is a day to celebrate – I’m so glad you were born!

  151. dee wrote:

    Seventh- Why is a watch group now *secret?* What are they afraid of? From what I understand, Coliseum persecutions have ended.

    You might release your Attack Pugs on them. 🙂

  152. Velour wrote:

    The pastors/elders even invited him to volunteer at a 5-day basketball camp for children, and didn’t tell all parents — including those who aren’t even church members and entrusted their children to the church!

    Well, you’ve just brought up another issue I hadn’t really been thinking about, but traditionally, church has been a place for kids to invite their friends, and, traditionally, a place where those friends’ parents would believe is a safe, innocuous place.

  153. Daisy wrote:

    Child molesters don’t have to attend a church. They can watch church services on TV or over the internet.

    Adults from that church can visit that pedophile at his home or a restaurant or some other public place to do Bible study together.

    I don’t see that it’s necessary for a pedophile to attend the same brick and mortar building that everyone else goes to.

    I don’t think some people are every fully healed of their problem, whether it’s alcohol addiction or being a pedophile, or whatever it may be.

    I think those are good points. Thanks for your opinion. That’s really what I want to hear people say- “No, I do not think they should be allowed in churches.” Or whatever iteration of that one believes. I’m undecided on that front and I want and need to hear others’ opinions.

  154. Law Prof wrote:

    BY the way, Anonymous, I have a post in moderation that I’d like the first paragraph to stand, but in retrospect, regret the last two. Still think it’s nonsense to ask “What of the social costs for the perp”, but I went too far questioning your faith, and area over which I have no expertise.

    I have been wonder if that poster is related to the pedophile – maybe his wife, or some other family or friend? I cannot figure out any other motive for being so invested and concerned about him (or pedos in general) rather than in victims or potential victims.

  155. Anonymous wrote:

    I was thrown off by your statement about protecting the offender. That’s not exactly the angle most people think or talk about so I did totally think you were just being… I don’t know. Sarcastic?

    Thank you for your gracious response. No, I wasn’t being sarcastic. With regard to the church “leaders,” though, I was being scathing.

    Crime prevention protects everybody, including criminals tempted by easy access.

    I like Velour’s account of the Mennonite program posted at 9:56.

    Going off line now. Best wishes.

  156. @ Anonymous:
    making excuses to keep predators in a Church doesn’t help them or anyone in the Church

    Predators should seek the ministries that work specifically with the people who share their weakness, and there are such ministries, yes.

    Let Churches be places where people are safe for the sake of the very young and the very old.

    Predators, by their offenses and their weaknesses that led to those offenses, have forsaken their place among innocent people who are vulnerable.

  157. Velour wrote:

    Many times you have posted this story and many times I have posted the Mennonites in the U.S. and Canada’s Circles of Support and Accountability, for sex offenders (C.O.S.A.). It is a very time intensive process, very highly trained volunteers and the organization works with the sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agency, psychiatrist, etc.

    I don’t know if you have always missed my posts in response to your statements about this.
    The Mennonites minister to most sex offenders apart from the normal congregation.

    This seems reasonable. Why isn’t this practiced more here? Funding? Interest? Disgust?

  158. @ Velour:

    My point for bringing all that up is that is secular society is more aware of the dangers pedophiles pose than do a lot of churches or Christians.

    Secular culture insists on keeping pedos away from kids at all costs, and they don’t wring their hands in concern over the spiritual welfare of a pedo, or the pedo’s lack of access to Christian fellowship.

    A lot of believers who are NOT pedos don’t have access to Christian fellowship either.

    I myself am reluctant of hanging out with Christians any more, at least in a church setting, because most of them were negligent to downright mean to me in my time of need.

    There are a lot of Christian “Dones” out there (who are not pedophiles).

    These Dones have been hurt by churches one way or another, so they stop attending a church. They are getting by without church attendance, so I think pedos can make due without it as well, I suppose.

  159. Happy birthday, Dee! As a birthday present, I am asking God to have the folks in the FB group back off and take a sanity check.

  160. Law Prof wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    Who do we continue to socially prosecute and who do we allow back into our lives?

    You’re missing such an essential point: it’s not about THEM, it’s not about THEIR social persecution. According to what Jesus said about those who harm and mislead children, they’re lucky to be alive rather than in a watery grave–Jesus literally said that, it’s in multiple Gospels. In what sort of bizarre upside down universe does one call themselves “Christian” and refer to their fellowship by Christ’s name and yet utterly ignore what He specifically said about situations like this and instead wring their hands over the social costs that the child sexual abuser will face?

    I saw your subsequent post about retracting the two paragraphs originally following this one, so I’ll just respond to this one. I’m not missing any point or making my concern more about offenders than victims. AGAIN, as a victim MYSELF I am INTIMATELY aware of the always and ongoing problems victims experience probably until the day we die. By asking questions I am not making statements. I have no problem continuing to socially prosecute someone who is deserving. That’s a statement. Some people have responded to my questions with honest opinions which is what I have hoped for in posing the questions. “Should convicted offenders be allowed in churches? Y/N” “If they are allowed in churches, in what capacity [or area] are they allowed?” Etc. I don’t want to write them all out again. Posing questions and developing definitive answers is how systems, protocols, laws, etc are established. OBVIOUSLY, (OBVIOUSLY) churches need more definitive systems and protocols for offenders in regards to attendance and participation in areas OTHER THAN AND IN ADDITION TO youth and children’s ministries if they are going to be allowed into the buildings at all. I still need to check out the links and resources others have posted in answer to these questions…

  161. Daisy wrote:

    Don’t a lot of states or cities have laws that sex offenders cannot live within X miles of schools and cannot hand out candy on Halloween etc?
    Don’t they also have to let officials know at all times what their address of residence is?

    Yee, some of them do. Each state is different and it also depends on the actual offense.

  162. Daisy wrote:

    My point for bringing all that up is that is secular society is more aware of the dangers pedophiles pose than do a lot of churches or Christians.

    That is very true!

  163. These individuals involved in these situations do not really understand the real world from what I have observed.

  164. Would it be possible to remove “Anonymous” and all derivatives as a post username? So those posting at least have to choose something more unique?

    It gets really hard to tell when multiple people are commenting who is who.

    I know you all can see it behind the scenes, but we can’t.


  165. “….In addition, from time to time, he has served as a bass player on stage for the worship services. At no time has he led worship for High point.”

    Please don’t tell the bass player at my church the he is not leading worship.

  166. I apparently missed a birthday this weekend, so happy birthday! And hope everyone had a good thanksgiving.

    Will be reading the comments, but I wanted to say that I was bothered by this: “A year later, Tim approached the leadership about being allowed to serve.” It wasn’t a natural transition or something that just came up, it was Tim seeking a position. Maybe the church should have been more suspicious of that.

  167. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Anonymous O.a.D. … that name is a gas, gas, gas …

    Thanks. Brad futurist guy.

    I have always enjoyed your comments.

    The fact that you like my new name is a great compliment to me!

  168. Lea wrote:

    It wasn’t a natural transition or something that just came up, it was Tim seeking a position. Maybe the church should have been more suspicious of that.

    Or maybe the leaders are deflecting blame, implying that they felt some obligation to accept an offer of help… and bad people never volunteer, eh?

  169. Law Prof wrote:

    so often throw that word “slander” around with reference to anyone telling the truth about the abuse coming from the leadership, it gets ingrained into the minds of the cultist, and out pops that inaccurate word.

    Making my way through the comments, I think they use slander because they think it’s biblical, even if it’s legally inaccurate. of course, the whole point of slander is that it’s a LIE, not true stuff people don’t want to talk about.

    I’m only partway through the comments, but I wonder if this Collierville watch thing wasn’t meant to be reporting break-ins and stuff, and then somebody mentioned someone in charge’s church, or alternately their close family friend Tim (or maybe both), and they freaked out. That’s kind of how it seems to have gone. Because reporting the Tennessee sex registry list, followed up by a statement from the church, is pretty obviously not a lie or slander.

  170. @ Lea:
    My understanding is that they will report sex offenders in the area. I think this on made it awkward for them since the rapist’s wife is a member as well as a number of Highpoint people. You should see what some of them are saying-accusing people of being influenced by Satan, etc. I will deal with some of this today in a post.

  171. Anonymous wrote:

    “Should convicted offenders be allowed in churches? Y/N” “

    I will answer this today. However, a simple yes/no does not cover the bases. Yes, but…. or sometimes no because is more reasonable.

  172. @ Linn:
    They have been rather quiet. Was that you or me threatening to post all the screenshot I am getting from other members? Or maybe both?

  173. Christiane wrote:

    Predators, by their offenses and their weaknesses that led to those offenses, have forsaken their place among innocent people who are vulnerable.

    I plan to deal with this today. Rapists and molesters are not just people who have a simple sin. They all have a mental defect that is not cured by incarceration. It still exists.

  174. The U.S. Is not alone. This morning in a Canadian city, four courageous men are facing their abuser in a Preliminary Hearing for evidence gathering. There is no statute of limitations here as these abuses took place in the 1980’s. The abuser is a police officer who attended our former church. The boys did too. It’s taken many years and difficult circumstances to get to this day. I believe many people at that church knew and said nothing. Please pray for justice and that the judge will find enough evidence to go to trial. Pray for these young men.

  175. There are several points in Dee’s post that reference a known, but here-unnamed, person threatening Dee[bs] with reporting to the police for “slander”, and a certain amount of discussion thereon in the comment thread.

    Dee also observed:

    For quite awhile, I believe we have been more than generous with our promise of confidentiality of emails. We wish to continue this.

    However, from this point forward, if we are threatened that we will be or have been reported to the police or a person threatens us with slander, libel or defamation, bodily harm, etc. we will release their names and other identifiers to the public via our blog. This includes Direct Messages, phone messages and snail mail. Such threats may also be forwarded to legal counsel.

    We will contact any police department in the area of the threat and ask if police reports have been made and will relay the name and other identifiers to the police.

    We have kept many of these threats from our readers, knowing that most of them were from impotent blowhards. However, this series of Direct Messages and ridiculous threats affected my Thanksgiving as I pondered how to deal with them. I hope you all understand or reasons for doing this.

    Oddly enough, I think it’s important to protect (among other things) the concept of slander itself. It is important, in other words, that those who try to hide their evil deeds in the dark should not be able to use “slander” as a cover.

    The criminal offence known, in UK law, as perverting the course of justice * is considered serious enough to carry a maximum sentence of life imprisonment (though I’m not aware that this has ever happened). My point is not that the persistent wrongful use of the term “slander” used by people in and around churches is, or is not, a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice; rather, that the principle that the law of the land must not be twisted or distorted is a vital one.

    I fully support our blog queens in any effort they make to connect people with the consequences of their actions. I’d almost say that this is more, not less, important with impotent blowhards because the criminal law is not to be frivolously meddled with. If those who are simply childish and petty get away with it, it makes it easier for those who are calculating and powerful.

    * I gather the nearest US equivalent is “obstruction of justice”

  176. siteseer wrote:

    I think it’s important not to confuse forgiveness with granting further opportunity.

    I think forgiveness is granted by the person who was hurt. And then by God. NOT by pastor bob, or by unconnected church members.

    Risk assessment and protecting the vulnerable in your care is a different matter entirely from forgiveness. That is what the church should be concerned with.

  177. Anonymous wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Many times you have posted this story and many times I have posted the Mennonites in the U.S. and Canada’s Circles of Support and Accountability, for sex offenders (C.O.S.A.). It is a very time intensive process, very highly trained volunteers and the organization works with the sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agency, psychiatrist, etc.
    I don’t know if you have always missed my posts in response to your statements about this.
    The Mennonites minister to most sex offenders apart from the normal congregation.
    This seems reasonable. Why isn’t this practiced more here? Funding? Interest? Disgust?

    The Mennonites have said it takes a great deal of volunteer hours/training and highly skilled volunteers to work with sex offenders. There are strict protocols to be followed.
    And yes, it is expensive to do this type of ministry properly.

  178. dee wrote:

    You should see what some of them are saying-accusing people of being influenced by Satan, etc.

    Just like the Malleus Malefacarium — The Devil and his Witches are HERE! THERE! EVERYWHERE!

  179. dee wrote:

    My understanding is that they will report sex offenders in the area. I think this on made it awkward for them since the rapist’s wife is a member as well as a number of Highpoint people.

    That explains the RALLY ROUND THE PERP, BOYS! and Fair Game Law LRH.

  180. Anonymous Oracle at Delphi wrote:

    Thanks. Brad futurist guy.

    I have always enjoyed your comments.

    The fact that you like my new name is a great compliment to me!

    🙂 [futuristguy does retro emoji]

    My original career choice was archaeology, so I always had an interest in the era of classical Greece, and knew immediately what the reference was to the Oracle at Delphi.

    Plus it made me think of Whoopi Goldberg in *Jumpin’ Jack Flash.* “And it’s a gas, gas, gas …”

    Humor keeps me afloat in an ocean of stuff that wants us to sink.

  181. Law Prof wrote:

    throw that word “slander” around with reference to anyone telling the truth

    The watchblogs are simply doing what church leadership failed to do … inform church members and prospective members about the situation. Telling the truth is not slander, nor lying. TWW is not an “accuser of the brethren”, nor Satan’s tool to hinder ministry. To accuse someone of doing that is intimidation by leadership to silence warnings which folks near to hear. I don’t recall if anything has been said about Highpoint being a New Calvinist church, but such groups are known to lead by control, manipulation, and intimidation, as is often chronicled by TWW and other watchblogs.

  182. ishy wrote:

    Would it be possible to remove “Anonymous” and all derivatives as a post username?

    It’s been complicated by the fact that on this thread we’ve had two Anonimi taking up, as far as I can see, diametrically opposing views. So it’s been a bit like watching a Silastic Armourfiend of Striterax trying to beat himself up.

    However, I believe one of the Anonimi has sportingly updated their name!

  183. ishy wrote:

    I can tell you as a bassist that most guitar players can play bass as well. It’s not that hard to play bass at a competent level.

    I can confirm that as a pianist who can play keyboards (not the same thing) as well and can also play guitar as well, who can also play bass as well.

    That’s “as well” in the sense of, “in addition”; not “as well” in the sense of “to the same standard”. (I hope that’s clear.)

  184. dee wrote:

    My understanding is that they will report sex offenders in the area.

    Ah, well that’s different then!

    dee wrote:

    You should see what some of them are saying-accusing people of being influenced by Satan, etc.

    Wow! Such nonsense.

  185. dee wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:
    “Should convicted offenders be allowed in churches? Y/N” “

    I will answer this today. However, a simple yes/no does not cover the bases. Yes, but…. or sometimes no because is more reasonable.

    I had a professor once who said the answer to every question is ‘It Depends’. Accurate more often than not.

  186. dee wrote:

    My understanding is that they will report sex offenders in the area. I think this on made it awkward for them since the rapist’s wife is a member as well as a number of Highpoint people. You should see what some of them are saying-accusing people of being influenced by Satan, etc. I will deal with some of this today in a post.

    I’ve always had a rule for myself that has served me well. I don’t expect anything out of anyone that I don’t expect from myself first.

    If these people want to watchdog everyone else, but can’t take the heat when it’s turned on themselves or people close to them, then they need to carefully consider if they are the problem, not everybody else.

  187. Lea wrote:

    the answer to every question is ‘It Depends’

    Mazzeo’s Law … it has corollaries, one of which is: it’s important to accurately know WHAT ‘it’ depends on

  188. I just finished reading this entire thread and it is one of the most informative I’ve ever read. It may be possible that some members of the watch group simply don’t understand the seriousness of the situation they are dealing with. It sounds as if they have been fooled by a predator or don’t know all of the pertinent details, likely because they’ve been deceived. If anyone from that community is reading this, let me tell you from personal experience that unless you are a psychologist, are very well informed about pedophilia, or have personally read the case file, you aren’t qualified to assess this situation. You don’t have all the facts. Years ago the youth minister at our church (who was also a third grade teacher) was accused of “fondling” a student and writing sexually explicit comments on her test paper. The community rallied around him, vilified the mother, and ostracized the victim. Our church raised money for his defense and many members went to the school board hearing to show support for him. I am very ashamed to say that I helped raise money and went to the board meeting. He was acquitted of the charges or whatever the legal term for it was and was given tenure the very next year. So thoroughly did people believe in his innocence that parents requested their children to be placed in his classroom. Fast forward twenty years and he is accused again by another student, who is thankfully believed. He is now in prison and the local news reported on the story, including details I wish I had known at the time. They interviewed that little girl, now all grown up, and she told how she and her mother were so abused by all of us that they moved to another state. I cannot overstate the regret and revulsion I felt when I read that. All of this is to say to the watch group: you are not protecting the children or the pedophile by hiding the truth from your community and you have no right to decide if he’s allowed to be around other people’s children. If he is truly repentant, he can be loved by his church and would welcome precautions put in place to keep him from abusing another child or being accused of abuse. The last thing you want on your conscience is knowing you enabled a predator, of that I can be sure.

  189. Canna wrote:

    So thoroughly did people believe in his innocence that parents requested their children to be placed in his classroom.

    Thank you for your long comment, Canna, about this incredibly serious subject. Predators in our churches and how to handle them.

    As attorney/author/child advocate Andrew Vachss would say about these parents and enablers of predators, “They aren’t just sick, but sickening.”

    I am so sorry the victim and her mother had to move to another state, they were so horribly abused.

  190. @ Velour:
    Thanks, Velour. I had tears rolling down my face the whole time I was typing. Andrew Vachss has been my educator on child abuse, I admire him so much.

  191. Go Dee! We are all accountable for statements we make on any public forum. In the case of harassing statements and threats made in a public forum, there should be no privacy of these things. If they say that they are going to sue or are going to file a complaint with authorities, then we all have to own that statement. Let our names be publicized. There is a point where we lose any right to privacy.
    Actually, in the end everything that we all have done and said will be made completely public. Better to keep that in mind as we act and communicate with each other. The final judgment is coming as sure as the things we live for in the future. Privacy is temporary and passing away, just like our aging bodies. It is wise to live with the end in mind.

  192. Canna wrote:

    I just finished reading this entire thread and it is one of the most informative I’ve ever read. It may be possible that some members of the watch group simply don’t understand the seriousness of the situation they are dealing with. It sounds as if they have been fooled by a predator or don’t know all of the pertinent details, likely because they’ve been deceived. If anyone from that community is reading this, let me tell you from personal experience that unless you are a psychologist, are very well informed about pedophilia, or have personally read the case file, you aren’t qualified to assess this situation. You don’t have all the facts. Years ago the youth minister at our church (who was also a third grade teacher) was accused of “fondling” a student and writing sexually explicit comments on her test paper. The community rallied around him, vilified the mother, and ostracized the victim. Our church raised money for his defense and many members went to the school board hearing to show support for him. I am very ashamed to say that I helped raise money and went to the board meeting. He was acquitted of the charges or whatever the legal term for it was and was given tenure the very next year. So thoroughly did people believe in his innocence that parents requested their children to be placed in his classroom. Fast forward twenty years and he is accused again by another student, who is thankfully believed. He is now in prison and the local news reported on the story, including details I wish I had known at the time. They interviewed that little girl, now all grown up, and she told how she and her mother were so abused by all of us that they moved to another state. I cannot overstate the regret and revulsion I felt when I read that. All of this is to say to the watch group: you are not protecting the children or the pedophile by hiding the truth from your community and you have no right to decide if he’s allowed to be around other people’s children. If he is truly repentant, he can be loved by his church and would welcome precautions put in place to keep him from abusing another child or being accused of abuse. The last thing you want on your conscience is knowing you enabled a predator, of that I can be sure.

    </blockquote

    Great comment.

    Deserves a post all its own.

  193. Canna wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thanks, Velour. I had tears rolling down my face the whole time I was typing. Andrew Vachss has been my educator on child abuse, I admire him so much.

    I am glad that you changed your stance on this serious subject and are grieved by where you went amiss. If there is any way for you to reach out to the victim and her mother, you may want to do that. “I’m sorry” means a lot to people…even years later.

    If you’ve been reading here at all, I was ordered to be excommunicated and shunned from my (ex) church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley after repeatedly being threatened by the pastors/elders in a meeting and by telephone. I’d discovered, while doing a separate project for a former sex crimes attorney/prosecutor, that a new church member was a Megan’s List sex offender/child pornographer. The pastors/elders let him become a member and told no one and even put him in charge of a team. The pastors/elders invited him to volunteer at a 5-day basketball camp for children, and told no one — including parents who aren’t church members and entrusted their children to the church!

    The pastors/elders repeatedly told me in a meeting that “child porn wasn’t a big deal”. Ummm, yes it is a big deal. It’s a violation of federal and state laws. Someone who is sexually turned on to children is a danger to children. Period.

    I started a blog about GBFSV. But there are countless dangerous churches like them, with sick theology to back up their sick practices. https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/2016/08/25/first-blog-post/

  194. Canna wrote:

    The community rallied around him … ostracized the victim.

    This is all too common. There is a psychology that takes over in a community where mental and emotional factors govern the situation to the benefit of the offender but detriment to the victim. The prominent and visible get more benefit of the doubt than those they victimize. It’s an upside down world where the crowd rallies around the wrong folks, rather than those who were wronged. This often persists even after all the facts are known. The matter is made worse in a church environment where trusted leaders fail … the congregation keeps holding on ignoring all the warnings and rebuke. The watchmen are viewed as enemies, when they are really their friends.

  195. Max wrote:

    It’s an upside down world where the crowd rallies around the wrong folks, rather than those who were wronged.

    I think the thing that makes me understand this, as much as I can, is the concept that the victim is not ‘perfect’ in many cases. They are angry, or depressed, or they did something ‘wrong’ or what have you, and there stands actual bad guy, who is fine (because nothing happened to him!), no emotion, acting so nice and personable…the contrast makes people trust the abuser over the victim. Because for some reason we except the victim to be perfect, in the way that they are just not going to be.

    Throw church language into all of this, and we expect those who have been hurt to be pleasant and instantly forgiving too.

    And then, I think you have people who just don’t want their little applecart upset, and they don’t want to realize that they have been thoroughly duped, because it hurts their PRIDE to think they weren’t as excellent a judge of character as they thought they were.

    And all of that combines to make a mess out of things, like in Canna’s story. Which is truly truly sad.

  196. Max wrote:

    The matter is made worse in a church environment where trusted leaders fail … the congregation keeps holding on ignoring all the warnings and rebuke. The watchmen are viewed as enemies, when they are really their friends.

    since this phenomenon exists and has shown itself in repeated Church venues, it is all the more vital that the minute the pastor/priest/rabbi hears an allegation of sexual abuse, he calls the police ….. an outside, independent investigation that is professional is warranted ….. the pastor should not even hesitate to pick up the phone and make that call …. the proper authorities will sort it out

  197. Daisy wrote:

    It looks like Perry Noble has a new business going, where he’s a consultant to churches.

    Makes sense. He’s made little secret of his dislike of people, so moving to a B2B product offering is the logical thing to do.

  198. Velour wrote:

    Many times you have posted this story and many times I have posted the Mennonites in the U.S. and Canada’s Circles of Support and Accountability, for sex offenders (C.O.S.A.). It is a very time intensive process, very highly trained volunteers and the organization works with the sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agency, psychiatrist, etc.

    Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was ignoring you. I have not been able to find any CoSA groups in the state where he lives. When he was released from prison he was required to live in that state and was not allowed to leave it until his parole was over. CoSA was and is not an option for him because it does not seem to be available. Or if it is available, it is well hidden.

  199. You are right, Velour, I should reach out to the victim and apologize. I agonized over doing that when the article came out and am not sure why I didn’t follow through. I went to a spaghetti fundraiser and the board meeting, but never saw the victim or her mother and didn’t know they had been forced to move from the community until I read her interview. We moved away and my children didn’t attend the school system he taught in, but my understanding is he remained a popular teacher and many former students were shocked as he had been their favorite. This guy was very clean cut, a science nerd. Now I know that pedophiles can be very convincing and manipulative. I thought it was just a huge misunderstanding, which is why what I or anyone else who was not an expert thought shouldn’t have mattered. We didn’t know all the facts. The support of the community shouldn’t have been factored into the school board’s decision. The superintendent later said she believed the little girl and fought to have him fired. Wish I had known that fact.

  200. Law Prof wrote:

    Frankly, this sounds like a healthier way to have Christian fellowship than:

    Wow – that’s how I feel at church. It brings up great point though. The Bible emphasizes the importance of fellowship, but that does not mean we have to do it in a church/club setting. The early church met early in the mornings on Sunday, which was originally a work day. That means they did not linger for long because they had to get to work. But in our times church has turned into something more like a club meeting/activity. And I think many parents have been led to believe that they need to turn their kids over to teaching ministries every Sunday morning because it is the “christian” thing to do. Could it be that the current paradigm for children’s ministry is wrong? Maybe we need the re-think the whole way we do church these days. But people don’t like change, so not much will change until this problem gets adequate exposure.

  201. Bridget wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    My point for bringing all that up is that is secular society is more aware of the dangers pedophiles pose than do a lot of churches or Christians.

    That is very true!

    I’m not sure this is true. If it is true that sexual offenders cannot be cured, then the secular legal system should lock them up for life after one offense. That does not happen. We have to worry about recidivism only because they eventually get released (some don’t even go to jail).

    Because the secular legal system does not put them away from life, churches need to get smart about what to do about it. Churches either need to ban all of them, or decide what level of participation is appropriate. Banning all of them could have consequences for society, so it’s worth having the discussion. Having them participate will have consequences as well. I don’t think there is a simple answer. But churches definitely need to find a way to be more discerning so that potential perpetrators find themselves thwarted at every opportunity. It would be great to be able to turn off all our defenses while at church, but that apparently is not working so well.

  202. @ Ken F:

    Secular culture at least recognizes that pedos are a danger, so they put laws in place, like pedos cannot live by schools or hand out Halloween candy.

    That is more than most churches do. A lot of churches want to coddle pedophiles, rather than put a structure into place to safe guard kids.

    I also don’t see Non-Christian culture falling all over themselves to white wash pedophiles, or plead that they deserve compassion and sympathy and grace as much as victims.

  203. Ken F wrote:

    @ Reidster:
    @ Daisy:
    Yes. I very much agree.

    Sorry – it was a reply just to Daisy but i made a mistake with my phone.

  204. @ Bill M:

    Muff Potter wrote: “I also think that when there’s conflict with what’s supposedly Christian this, that, and the other, good sense should prevail.”

    Bill M wrote: “If it were only that easy. Unfortunately “good sense” seems to be a rare commodity in far too many church leaders.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    unfortunately it is true. but it’s a great personal policy to have! quells the temptation to overanalyze and secondguess onself. keeps the religious guilt monkey off my back (it loves to jump on anyone and everyone either by its own accord or as emissary of another christian).

    frees me up to enjoy God and God’s companionship and partnership, and, I believe, it facilitates God being able enjoy me, as well. nothing like stress, consternation, and guilt (think Rex the tyrannosaurs in Toy Story) to interfere with connecting with others.

    but most of all, it helps me sleep in peace.

  205. @ Lea:

    “…the victim is not ‘perfect’ in many cases. They are angry, or depressed, or they did something ‘wrong’ or what have you, and there stands actual bad guy, who is fine (because nothing happened to him!), no emotion, acting so nice and personable…the contrast makes people trust the abuser over the victim. Because for some reason we except the victim to be perfect, in the way that they are just not going to be.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    well, it seems the unpardonable sin in church is not being happy and smiley.

  206. Max wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    Law Prof, I do believe you’ve attended some of the same churches I have! Your words remind me of the following parody: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RJBd8zE48A
    Jesus wept.

    That is just so wrong and unfair! The worship leader is nowhere “cool” enough- he doesn’t have bleached or spiked hair, given he is bald – he should be sporting a “soul patch” or a very long goatee with no moustache and ear piercings! Other than that – spot on, sadly.

  207. Burwell wrote:

    well, it seems the unpardonable sin in church is not being happy and smiley.

    “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”

  208. Ken F wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Many times you have posted this story and many times I have posted the Mennonites in the U.S. and Canada’s Circles of Support and Accountability, for sex offenders (C.O.S.A.). It is a very time intensive process, very highly trained volunteers and the organization works with the sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agency, psychiatrist, etc.
    Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was ignoring you. I have not been able to find any CoSA groups in the state where he lives. When he was released from prison he was required to live in that state and was not allowed to leave it until his parole was over. CoSA was and is not an option for him because it does not seem to be available. Or if it is available, it is well hidden.

    Thanks Ken F.

    I think when we are faced with these situations we could reach out to the Mennonites who lead Circles of Support and Accountability and ask if they have contacts in our respective states/regions or know of other similar groups to their group.

  209. GMFS

    This is slightly off-topic, but inspired by @ Mike’s wry observation (drawn from a similar one from Max) on the “need” for cool worship-leaders.

    I once visited the United Free Church of Scotland (known affectionately as the Wee Frees – let me state here that there are some very good folk among them) congregation up in Rosskeen, the connection being that both they and I were involved with the charity Christians Against Poverty.

    The band consisted of one laddie my age with a strong voice. At each point in the service where it was time for a hymn, he just started singing, and everyone else joined in. Each hymn was essentially one of the Psalms, or part thereof, re-written so that it had a fixed metre. Anyone in the congregation who wanted to sing a harmony part, either because they couldn’t reach the notes in the melody, or else just because, did so. Those were the only “frills”. No PA, no instruments, no coloured lights, no smoke, no visible tattoos, no goatee beards.

    It seemed to me that Less Was More.

  210. Ken F wrote:

    If it is true that sexual offenders cannot be cured, then the secular legal system should lock them up for life after one offense. That does not happen. We have to worry about recidivism only because they eventually get released (some don’t even go to jail).
    Because the secular legal system does not put them away from life, churches need to get smart about what to do about it.

    There aren’t many topics that polarise society like this one, are there?

    Precisely because of, or as a part of, this, I think a significant and ongoing issue is the fact that a lot of what’s done involves re-acting rather than acting. For instance, if we see a cultural tendency to downplay the seriousness of child abuse, then rather than soberly assess the actual needs of the abused, we fall into the trap of “correcting the imbalance” by arguing with the down-players. If that process continues, then we’ll push back harder and harder against “trivialising child abuse” until the abused person is utterly beyond healing and can at best hope for some palliative love to ease the crippling pain that can never ever go away.

    Again, we see churches claiming cheap and false miracles of easy transformation for abusers. By way of reaction, we push back harder and harder against any claim of transformation, to the point where God is powerless to heal an abused person and the Cross is powerless against the sin of abuse. (In which case, we may as well euthanase all abusers and quietly dispose of them at sea…)

    It is not possible to talk about “exaggerating the effects” of child abuse. But I am concerned that we do not exaggerate the hopelessness of the abused.

  211. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”

    Honestly, I would be surprised if that were the case. More likely, some wealthy member who wanted to do the church a ‘favor’ or who the pastors/elders had convinced that paying for Goodrich’s defense would be giving to God.

    Tithe money would leave a trail, however faint it may be.

  212. elastigirl wrote:

    well, it seems the unpardonable sin in church is not being happy and smiley.

    “Hell hath no torment greater than Constant Forced Cheerfulness.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, “Three Tools of Death” (Father Brown Mystery)

  213. Canna wrote:

    He was acquitted of the charges or whatever the legal term for it was and was given tenure the very next year. So thoroughly did people believe in his innocence that parents requested their children to be placed in his classroom.

    “For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an Angel Of Light.”
    — some Rabbi from Tarsus

    Think the Rabbi was writing about how successful sociopaths are masters of camouflage?

  214. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It is not possible to talk about “exaggerating the effects” of child abuse. But I am concerned that we do not exaggerate the hopelessness of the abused.

    Very good comments. And you are right, this is a polarizing topic. In my own church experience, one of the sacred cows is youth ministry? Why do do need it at all, and why does it need to be complicated? The “demand” for volunteers creates a huge opening for abusers. How much abuse could we stop by ceasing all youth ministry (including nursery). Past generations survived without, so we should be able to. But say that in church and you will get shot.

  215. Velour wrote:

    I think when we are faced with these situations we could reach out to the Mennonites who lead Circles of Support and Accountability and ask if they have contacts in our respective states/regions or know of other similar groups to their group.

    That could work. For me it’s water under the bridge because my friend has a good circle of support in place now. I did not know about CoSA when he got out of prison and had to get himself set up with no money, no place to live, no job prospects.

  216. Christiane wrote:

    the pastor should not even hesitate to pick up the phone and make that call

    Sexual abuse is a crime. Pastors need to back away from counseling and call 911. Their responsibility as mandated reporters in such situations should supersede their desire to make it right between abuser and victim to protect the church. It’s the law.

  217. @ Mike:
    I believe the parody was produced before bleached/spiked hair, long goatees, and ear piercings became in vogue for worship leaders. Such look is now in, of course, as cool mega-churches spread across the landscape doing church without God. Heck, convicted sex offenders are now welcome on-stage!

  218. wrote:

    JeffT wrote:
    Why do so many churches find it necessary to defend child molesters in their midst, and so vehemently? Instead of making their church a safe place for children, they seem intent on willingly offering up their children as victims. It is sick, sick, sick.

    I don’t think a number of these folks at the High Point Church may even understand what happened to actually be child molestation. In Dee’s post she cited one of the commentators that states the “affair” was for a year and a half and that the age of the girl was 17 or 18. That kind of language is meant to be dismissive. Further, it’s a twisted view that somehow a young teenaged girl can have a consensual relationship with a man at least 20 years her senior. The viewpoint that it was an “affair” explicitly shows that they consider the girl equally responsible for what happened and that she willingly took part in the *relationship.* I shudder to think how this girl was treated if she was in a church at the time that believed this way. Imagine, treating a young 13-14 yr. old girl as if she had sinned and had an affair with an older man. All the while ignoring what really happened: the sexual molestation of a minor. But this should be no surprise that a view like this exists within Christian circles. Just remember how Doug Wilson treated Natalie Greenfield when she spoke out about her sexual abuse. Wilson, too, considered it a consensual relationship. Twisted thinking about rape exists within many segments of Christianity and I believe it originates from a misogynist belief system, as well as the propensity to practice sin leveling.

  219. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    well, it seems the unpardonable sin in church is not being happy and smiley.

    “Hell hath no torment greater than Constant Forced Cheerfulness.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, “Three Tools of Death” (Father Brown Mystery)

    Number 12 looks just like you.

  220. Darlene wrote:

    Twisted thinking about rape exists within many segments of Christianity and I believe it originates from a misogynist belief system, as well as the propensity to practice sin leveling.

    Dead-on!