Underwhelmed by ‘Overwhelmed’- A Retreat for N.C. Baptist Women

"Many things in life can make us feel overwhelmed… At this retreat, we will study Scripture and learn what it means to be overwhelmed with the presence of the Lord and how to focus on the Father rather than our circumstances."

ncbaptist.org

http://www.ncbaptist.org/index.php?id=1542

Yesterday I discovered that a women's retreat is being held this weekend at a facility owned and operated by the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina called the Caraway Conference Center and Camp (or Camp Caraway).  As a female Southern Baptist who lives in North Carolina, I was curious to learn about this retreat, which I missed the opportunity to attend. 

Here is a description of the retreat which I found on the N.C. Baptist website (see screen shot).

http://www.ncbaptist.org/index.php?id=1542

Who doesn't feel overwhelmed right now?  So far this retreat sounded rather appealing!  My very next thought was – what is the name of the gifted speaker who will teach attendees to focus on things above rather than their circumstances?  

I scrolled down the page and saw this (see screen shot).

http://www.ncbaptist.org/index.php?id=1542

Carolyn McCulley?  Now that's a name we have known the entire time we have been blogging.  How did we first learn about her?  Well, back when we were doing extensive research on Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), we learned that Carolyn worked for SGM and was a member of the church co-founded by C.J. Mahaney – Covenant Life Church (CLC).  The following screen shot confirms this. 



The book McCulley references in her bio, Sex and the Supremacy of Christ, was published on June 1, 2005, and includes this description of McCulley's position at SGM.

screen-shot-2016-10-28-at-10-50-00-pm

On June 25, 2007, Revive Our Hearts featured an interview with Carolyn McCulley, who was in her 40s at the time.  It was fascinating to discover how she first met C.J. Mahaney.  She had traveled to South Africa to visit her sister and brother-in-law who were living there at the time, and it was in Capetown that she first heard Mahaney speak.  Here is an excerpt from that interview.

 https://www.reviveourhearts.com/radio/revive-our-hearts/hope-deferred/

Carolyn McCulley joined the Sovereign Grace church in Richmond, Virginia, and sometime later she moved her membership to Covenant Life Church.  Mahaney pastored there until the latter part of 2004 and then headed up Sovereign Grace Ministries, which was headquartered inside CLC.

This is what greatly concerns us about Carolyn McCulley — she planned to follow Mahaney as he followed Christ.  Not only that, the people in churches affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries discipled her and changed her life.  Knowing what we now know about Mahaney, SGM, CLC, etc. this is a HUGE concern.  In the years since this Revive Our Hearts interview took place, we have discovered that shepherding was heavily used in SGM.  Not only that, sin-sniffing was alleged to have taken place in 'care groups'.  Carolyn McCulley's former employer (SGM) had so many problems that there is a ton of information about it on the internet.  Here is an eye-opening article that appeared in The Washingtonian earlier this year.

The Sex-Abuse Scandal That Devastated a Suburban Megachurch

Perhaps this is why Carolyn doesn't mention anything about Covenant Life Church or Sovereign Grace Ministries in her bio. 

Given the fact that Carolyn McCulley was heavily influenced by Mahaney and other pastors in SGM, we are greatly concerned about how she is influencing others – in this case Baptist women from North Carolina.  Do they even know about her background with Sovereign Grace Ministries since it is NEVER mentioned in her bio?

We used to follow Carolyn's blog and will never forget her post where she announced she was leaving her church (Covenant Life Church).  She made it sound so dramatic!  Then she revealed that she was leaving to help plant a church in Arlington, Virginia.  It appears she is still at that church, which used to be a part of Sovereign Grace Ministries.  After the chaos that occurred in 2011-12, Carolyn McCulley's church disassociated with SGM (see Brent Detwiler's info).  According to the church website, they now partner with the Acts 29 Network and SendDC.

Based on what we know about Carolyn McCulley's involvement with C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace churches, we are truly underwhelmed by her leadership at the Overwhelmed retreat.  How tragic that North Carolina Baptists have to go outside their denomination to look for an inspiring female speaker.  Aren't there millions of women in the SBC?  Where are the female leaders?

There are two female worship leaders at this event who are both Baptists – Cindy Johnson and Kimberly Merida.  I do not know anything about Cindy or Kimberly, but I have heard of Kimberly's husband Tony Merida, who pastors a church in Raleigh.  Almost seven months ago C.J. Mahaney came to Raleigh and spoke at Merida's church, Imago Dei.  We wrote about it here.

If you are overwhelmed by life, rest assured you don't have to spend $$$ for a two-day retreat to become overwhelmed by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  All we need to do is continually look beyond our circumstances to see His magnificence! 

Comments

Underwhelmed by ‘Overwhelmed’- A Retreat for N.C. Baptist Women — 379 Comments

  1. I read a bit about the ‘retreat’ set-up with bunk-beds and speakers and ‘break-out’ sessions, and I thought this sounds more like a ‘conference’ than a Christian ‘retreat’.

    I’ve been on retreats at several points throughout my life and there was ALWAYS a private room (small, plain, bed, desk, lamp) and gatherings for prayers and mass, and plenty of private time for walking and sitting in the gardens and reading and writing. And yes, we could sit quietly with one of the retreat advisors and have a talk, but it wasn’t a ‘speech’, it was a conversation, not at all unlike talking to a wise friend.

    What IS a religious retreat without quiet time and time to pray and contemplate? I suppose that the ladies who do attend will make of it what they will, but why don’t the organizers call it a ‘conference’ instead of the word ‘retreat’? I think it might be a more accurate description.

  2. Now I’m humming the line from the hymn: “His oath, His covenant, His blood, support me in the whelming flood.” (From “On Christ the Solid Rock”.)

  3. There is a reason I never wanted to attend a Women’s retreat in the past 36 years, since I was saved…..thanking God for protecting me!!!!! Amazed that she felt she could follow a man who followed Christ. That’s like going to a priest to forgive your sins!

  4. Can’t really comment on the value of otherwise of this event. However, you are all warmly invited to the Alloa Beer Festival today.

  5. It is so sad as to what the SBC has become. I have been a Southern Baptist for over 40 years and I do not comprehend how far this denomination has moved away from focusing on the Good News of Jesus Christ.

  6. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Can’t really comment on the value of otherwise of this event. However, you are all warmly invited to the Alloa Beer Festival today.

    Aye. Sounds like a plan.

  7. mot wrote:

    I do not comprehend how far this denomination has moved away from focusing on the Good News of Jesus Christ.

    “The Good News of Jesus Christ” went out with Christmas. It’s Xmas and the Gospel.

  8. Carolyn McCulley's church is what triggered my blog The Wondering Eagle. An Air Force Captain that I worked with tried to get me involved. In the process he made a false accusation that threatened my name, career and ability to earn income. I learned why rape and sexual assault is a problem in the military. My situation from Redeemer Arlington/Redeemer Church of Arlington is still unresolved. If you want to know about Carolyn McCulley's church I have written 81 articles about it. This gives you an overview and history of it.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/the-history-of-eric-simmons-redeemer-arlington-formerly-of-sovereign-grace-ministries-now-of-acts-29/

  9. Here is another post:

    How Healthy is Redeemer Arlington’s Culture? What About Other Former Sovereign Grace Ministries Churches? Should You Get Involved?

    A series of texts from Andrew White who was a Care Group Leader at Redeemer Arlington creates this post. In November 2012 Andrew called Sovereign Grace Fairfax healthy and like Redeemer Arlington. This post asks the question…how healthy is Redeemer Arlington? What about other former SGM churches that have broken away? How healthy are they? Should you get involved?

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/08/20/how-healthy-is-redeemer-arlingtons-culture-what-about-other-former-sovereign-grace-ministries-churches-should-you-get-involved/

  10. Then there is this article that explains why Redeemer Arlington broke away from SGM

    Why Redeemer Arlington Separated from SGM Ministries; Eric Simmons View of SGM and the 9 Marks Elephant Again in the Room

    This explores Eric Simmons' view of SGM which helps explain why Redeemer Arlington broke away from the denomination. Redeemer was the fifth church to separate from the denomination. This also looks at another angle of Jonathan Leeman’s view of para-churches and asks where would an SGM church submit to a para-church ministry?

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/05/23/why-redeemer-arlington-separated-from-sgm-ministries-eric-simmons-view-of-sgm-and-the-9-marks-elephant-again-in-the-room/

  11. Carolyn McCulley said:

    ““I called his church up in Gaithersburg, Maryland, and I said, “Do you have a church you know of in Richmond?”

    They did have a sister church there. So I went. I went with the idea that I was adding church to my schedule. I had no idea that God was going to upend my life and use the wonderful people of that church to disciple me and to change my whole life.”
    =====================

    Would one of those wonderful people God used to change her whole life have been former Sovereign Grace Regional leader and senior pastor Gene Emerson? A real life Elmer Gantry was he. Your remember the guy – Brent Detwiler had this to say about him:

    “Gene Emerson, former regional leader in SGM and senior pastor of KingsWay Community Church in Midlothian, VA, was arrested on May 29 [2015] for the solicitation of prostitution in Chesterfield County, VA. He was arraigned on June 9. He was found guilty and sentenced on July 9. He is a close friend of C.J. Mahaney’s and known for carrying out vengeful assignments given him by Mahaney. ( http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/gene-emerson-former-regional-leader-for-sgm-found-guilty-for.html )

    Emerson resigned a few months later and as far as I know, neither Kingsway Community Church nor Sovereign Grace denominational leaders took any disciplinary action against him. (Proving once again that those membership contracts apply only to the unwashed masses!)

    The whole Sovereign Grace denomination is toxic, and yet the Gospel Glitterati continue to associate with them. What does this tell you about their corruption? A foul stench emanates from the lot of them.

    I understand McCulley wanting to keep her association with Sovereign Grace on the low-down. What discerning Christian would want to attend any conference/retreat where a Sovereign Grace disciple was the teacher?

    ================

    “He had, in fact, got everything from the church and Sunday School, except, perhaps, any longing whatever for decency and kindness and reason.”
    -Sinclair Lewis, “Elmer Gantry”

  12. Womens’ ministry is normally mystifying to me, even though I’m a woman. I’m not a girly woman. I hate pink, and I used to be rather goth. I’ve gone into womens’ classes and events, and everything is so flowery and overdone, and it seems like people who run womens’ ministry events are only allowed to use one decorating style. Often they talk down to women like they are all dumb, and most classes are about being a wife or mother, not the Bible.

    But then, they do stuff like this, picking the worst people to speak. Sometimes it makes me wonder if they just get so desperate to find people that they take whoever is available. I’m not terribly surprised that it’s North Carolina, as I assume the convention there is fairly Calvinista-controlled with SEBTS’ influence.

    The kids who came to Liberty from SGM (PDI) churches were terribly broken. Most hated the church, and went to LU because their parents made them go. Many of them had been so controlled and sheltered their entire lives that they either started rebelling as soon as they got there, or they turned around and tried to control others. I’ve met some very angry former SGMers, who took their anger out on everyone around them. There is nothing good or godly that comes out of heavy shepherding movements.

  13. “proud aunt of X nieces and nephews’? Am I supposed to be putting that sort of thing in a profile?

    I”m sort of terrified to see what her ‘did I kiss marriage goodbye’ book says.

    drstevej wrote:

    I was Whelmed by this article. Thanks

    Can you ever just be whelmed?
    I think you can in Europe.
    *10 things I hate about you*

  14. ishy wrote:

    Womens’ ministry is normally mystifying to me, even though I’m a woman. I’m not a girly woman. I hate pink, and I used to be rather goth. I’ve gone into womens’ classes and events, and everything is so flowery and overdone, and it seems like people who run womens’ ministry events are only allowed to use one decorating style. Often they talk down to women like they are all dumb, and most classes are about being a wife or mother, not the Bible.
    But then, they do stuff like this, picking the worst people to speak. Sometimes it makes me wonder if they just get so desperate to find people that they take whoever is available. I’m not terribly surprised that it’s North Carolina, as I assume the convention there is fairly Calvinista-controlled with SEBTS’ influence.
    The kids who came to Liberty from SGM (PDI) churches were terribly broken. Most hated the church, and went to LU because their parents made them go. Many of them had been so controlled and sheltered their entire lives that they either started rebelling as soon as they got there, or they turned around and tried to control others. I’ve met some very angry former SGMers, who took their anger out on everyone around them. There is nothing good or godly that comes out of heavy shepherding movements.

    Agreed. I always think of flowery dresses with enormous white collars and Stepford smiles! I am girly and pink and still found myself completely put off! The more I find out the more I see God’s hand of protection over the years in my life. That said, I still fell for John MacArthur’s messages…. deprogramming has taken a long time!

  15. Lea wrote:

    “proud aunt of X nieces and nephews’?

    Thanks for bringing this up. I meant to address it in the post. My guess is that the vast majority of attendees are wives and mothers who are overwhelmed by their responsibilities. I wonder how someone who is single can relate to this group. Maybe she shares lots of stories about how her siblings are raising her nieces and nephews. Just a guess…

  16. @ Dave (Eagle):

    You have done a yeoman's work discussing the church Carolyn McCulley helped plant. I continue to be amazed that it withdrew from Sovereign Grace Ministries and joined Acts 29.

  17. @ Todd Wilhelm:

    No wonder Carolyn McCulley doesn't mention "Sovereign Grace Ministries" in her bio.

    Remember this video? I believe Carolyn is taking part in lauding C.J. Mahaney.

  18. Lea wrote:

    Can you ever just be whelmed?

    The “-whelmed” part of overwhelmed comes from an old English verb “whelmen”, meaning to turn upside-down. So, you can indeed be whelmed. The SS Poseidon was whelmed by a freak wave in the well-known disaster movie, for instance.

    “Underwhelming” is an obvious response to the figurative (i.e. non-physical) use of “overwhelming”, but perhaps we can add a few more prepositions.

     Intowhelmed: what happens to young men dazzled by the promises of complementarian theology;
     Outwhelmed: what happens to those who question the CEO in a personality-led pseudo-church;
     Aboutwhelmed: what happens during a road-to-Damascus conversion;
     And it’s somebody else’s turn now

  19. This is a portion of a review of “Radical Womanhood” on Amazon by a reader listed as JR Corey:

    “The most offensive part of complimentarianism is always, ALWAYS, that some of them try to lower Jesus in order to subordinate women. McCulley added some disgusting paragraph by a man, saying that Jesus just never had the authority to lead and command like His Father did. You know what’s coming: if Jesus does this, why shouldn’t women?? or so the complimentarians whine. McCulley actually said “It’s hard to reject authority when it’s viewed as the cornerstone of the Trinity, isnt it?” No it’s not, because Christ is all powerful and all commanding, equal to His Father. Let me tell you: this practice of lowering Christ, of disrespecting our Holy Lord, is a far more vile and wicked thing than the doctrine that limits and lowers women’s work in Him. How dare these people do this to Christ? How dare their arrogance and greed for authority lower the Son Himself to fit their agenda? Wayne Grudem (who wrote the preface for this book) has even claimed elsewhere that when God acts as helper to His children, He is lowering Himself to a subordinate role! That’s how badly Grudem wishes to lower women, stress hierarchy where there is none, and twist the meaning of woman as helper; he wants to do the latter so badly that he openly lowers God as well. Rather than seeing a helper as one who assists in strength and compassion, he lowers the meaning to one of subordinate servant in order to demean women, and demeans God in the process. This is evil and unBiblical teaching, and I respect no one who spreads it. McCulley’s own mockery of Christ in this book, with the disgusting words that Christ has not the authority or leadership of His Father, which He so openly showed all throughout the NT, proves to me that she is not a woman to be trusted in Christian doctrine.”

  20. Want another way to save a whole bunch of money?

    Don’t go to a conference led by a woman who wants lots of attention married to a supposed ‘humble’ man who really wants lots of attention, praise, worship.

    Instead get the book I’ve linked below.
    It is a book gleaned from the actual humble letters of an actual humble man who didn’t want to draw attention and glory to himself. He simply wanted to Practice the Presence of God and quietly help others who wanted to do the same.

    https://www.amazon.com/Practice-Presence-God-Brother-Lawrence/dp/0883681056/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1477747481&sr=1-1&keywords=the+practice+of+the+presence+of+god

    (Sorry for the long link. I know there is a way to make them shorter and I’m willing for some kind soul to teach me how.)

  21. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

     And it’s somebody else’s turn now

    Retrowhelmed – when someone chucks the latest Christian fad because a recently previous fad grabs hold of them.

  22. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

     And it’s somebody else’s turn now

    Anti-whelmed – When someone should be whelmed but instead takes the stance, “My mind is made up. Don’t confuse me with the whelming facts.”

  23. Nancy2 wrote:

    The most offensive part of complimentarianism is always, ALWAYS, that some of them try to lower Jesus in order to subordinate women.

    Above is Nancy2 quoting a book review.

    The short “Christianese” version of the book review:
    Comps have made an idol of hierarchy and the subordination of women. They kneel and worship to this idol and trample over Jesus in order to do so.

  24. Since Carolyn McCulley was both Covenant Life Church’s spokesperson to the media, in a paid capacity, and a prominent CLC/SGM member for many years, she should tell the world whether she knew about any of the allegations about child sexual abuse against prominent CLC members and Pastors before they were made public.

    Here’s an excerpt from a Washington Times article to which McCulley contributed in CLC’s better days:

    “Women support the church’s scriptural position that only men serve as elders and care group leaders, spokeswoman Carolyn McCulley says.
    “We benefit so much from men not being passive about their responsibilities in the family, in the home and elsewhere,” she says. ”

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2002/dec/23/20021223-111002-4857r/

    I think Carolyn McCulley owes the world an explanation as to how some of the supposedly masculine Godly men she lauds in the article above ended up supporting a pedophile ring for decades, and doing other non-women friendly things such as telling married women to put up with being physically assaulted by their husbands.

    I personally don’t think that McCulley has any business claiming to care about women’s issues given her abandonment of all the abused women at Covenant Life Church, an entity that employed her for years to promote its “men know better than women” philosophy.

  25. @ Deb:
    That makes sense given that Carolyn McCulley is both a talented speaker and a complete fraud.

    Those are two characteristics those sorts of conferences seem to be looking for in speakers.
    😉

  26. The New Calvinists are sneaking into every corner of SBC life as they can. They are whelming the grand ole gospel ship with their flood … and the pew ain’t got a clue. Anyone with Mahaney in their background should be keeping it quiet, but it doesn’t necessarily change their stripe. I suspect there will be some subtle indoctrination in reformed theology at the retreat … the grace, grace, grace message without Grace.

  27. Max wrote:

    The New Calvinists are sneaking into every corner of SBC life as they can. They are whelming the grand ole gospel ship with their flood … and the pew ain’t got a clue. Anyone with Mahaney in their background should be keeping it quiet, but it doesn’t necessarily change their stripe. I suspect there will be some subtle indoctrination in reformed theology at the retreat … the grace, grace, grace message without Grace.

    Max:

    You and I have both said–the SBC is gone and will never come back.

  28. “Marriage. No marriage. Kids. Finances. … ”

    It strikes me as odd that “No Kids” did not come after “Kids” in that list — infertility is a huge issue for so many women. Dealing with an empty nest is a major adjustment for so many women. Maybe it’s just me but I’m curious about why not being married is presented as an “overwhelming” issue but not having children is not.

  29. You know who else talked a lot about being “overwhelmed?”

    Perry Noble. He even wrote a book titled that.

    So yeah, I get suspicious whenever the word “overwhelmed” is used in a church context. And now I have to associate it with SGM as well as Perry Noble now…

  30. For you overwhelmed North Carolina Baptist ladies listening in, I suggest you immerse yourself in the Words in Red instead … for example Matthew 6:

    “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life ?

    “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you — you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.” (Jesus)

  31. mot wrote:

    the SBC is gone and will never come back

    Yep, I don’t even see it gasping for breath at this point. There may be some potluck dinners still taking place, but there’s not enough spiritual power in the house to blow the dust off a peanut!

  32. Max wrote:

    you overwhelmed North Carolina Baptist ladies

    I was thinking about my cousins in Plymouth NC and how on the hottest days of summer, they are completely coiffed and serene. I never got it how they did that, but ‘overwhelmed’ is one word I wouldn’t use about that branch of the family.

  33. Max wrote:

    For you overwhelmed North Carolina Baptist ladies listening in, I suggest you immerse yourself in the Words in Red instead … for example Matthew 6:
    “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear.

    It really struck me immediately that the wallpaper for McCulley’s website is all about purses and shoes.
    http://www.carolynmcculley.com

  34. Max wrote:

    mot wrote:
    the SBC is gone and will never come back
    Max wrote: Yep, I don’t even see it gasping for breath at this point. There may be some potluck dinners still taking place, but there’s not enough spiritual power in the house to blow the dust off a peanut!

    They need to just stop it with these stupid segregated women’s retreats/conferences and men’s retreats/conferences! Either we are all part of the Body, or we are not.
    Women are not truly part of the Body in the SBC. We have been relegated to mere accessories.
    There can be church services and church business meetings without a single woman present. But, if no men show up, there is no church.
    If the men would stoop low enough to do the cooking and child-care, and skip the songs that have alto/soprano parts, there would be no use for women whatsoever in the churches!

  35. When I see/hear of conferences like that, I think of retreats/conferences I’ve gone to that left me even more overwhelmed than when I started.

  36. Max wrote:

    The New Calvinists are sneaking into every corner of SBC life as they can. They are whelming the grand ole gospel ship with their flood … and the pew ain’t got a clue. Anyone with Mahaney in their background should be keeping it quiet, but it doesn’t necessarily change their stripe. I suspect there will be some subtle indoctrination in reformed theology at the retreat … the grace, grace, grace message without Grace.

    It’s like a virus/cancer…..comes in by stealth, destroying the body, before it even knew it was sick.

  37. Mara wrote:

    Comps have made an idol of hierarchy and the subordination of women.

    Idol worship seems to be The Thing – also evident in the above videos that laud pastors/leaders.

    In the OT, the good kings of Israel got rid of the idols and brought blessing to all of Israel, and the bad kings brought them back which eventuated in being cursed instead of blessed.

  38. Nancy2 wrote:

    If the men would stoop low enough to do the cooking and child-care, and skip the songs that have alto/soprano parts, there would be no use for women whatsoever in the churches!

    That may be coming soon anyway. Women are just going to walk away from their churches and not go back, like you did.

  39. @ Deb:

    McCulley is Good at Branding Herself But Her Message is Ridiculous

    She’s good at branding herself, but I’ve never understood how a very professionally-successful and perpetually-single woman, like Carolyn McCulley, can be credibly peddling complementarianism. That philosophy inherently revolves around gender roles in marriage, as it’s generally marketed in Evangelical circles.

    For example, to a guy like Al Mohler, the head of Southern Seminary, single people are dangerous second class citizens who should be encouraged to get married as soon as possible whether they’ve met the right person or not. In his mind, single adult Christians are messing with a conception of complementarianism that revolves around a woman submitting to a specific man, first and foremost.

    A Truly Submissive Woman Would Stay Home as Opposed to Going on a Conference Tour
    And if she really believes that women should be quiet and submissive, then why is McCulley running around the country giving high-profile speeches at expensive public conferences?

    I felt the same way about Elizabeth Elliott, another high-profile “the Bible says that men know best” promoter. If these women really think that the fairer sex should confine its activities to serving in the home, then shouldn’t they be setting an example by doing so instead of running around promoting their businesses in multiple States?

    I don’t think that McCulley really wants to fulfill what she says is her Biblical mandate to try and get married, because doing so at this point will ruin her whole “Godly singleness” brand and force her to give control of her finances to a husband.

    McCulley’s latest book appears to temper, or just further muddle, her take on so-called Biblical gender roles.

    https://www.amazon.com/Measure-Success-Uncovering-Biblical-Perspective/dp/1433679922/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q6GDTK0N9TDX3GZ22H80

    Apparently, McCulley now believes there’s a place for women, like herself, who don’t want really want to practice complementarinism but are comfortable preaching that it should apply to others.

    That’s what I’m taking away from the book description, at least.

  40. It seems like a lot of these events are all about selling you something that is already freely available to you. You don’t need to pay someone to tell you how to be overwhelmed by God. Spend a little time reading or thinking about Jesus. No need to travel or go to all the expense or trouble. No one has a ‘secret’ that you need to learn in order to live the Christian life.

    I found it very interesting that she described C J Mahaney in this way-

    I saw him with all his passion for the Lord and all his -to me- authenticity.

    This is to admit openly that she recognizes others do not see this authenticity in him that she sees.

  41. @ Christiane:

    Exactly. The catholic word ‘retreat’ and the protestant word ‘retreat’ do not have the same connotations. In the protestant retreat one is not likely to retreat from busyness or from mobs of people or from one activity following another or for that matter retreat from the sellers of books/tapes and Jesus junk. Conference is a much better word. Now, I think that conferences have their place, maybe/hopefully, but ‘retreat’ it is not.

    I was surprised when a women’s group at my parish sponsored a ‘quiet day’ which had one short devotional speaker (a woman priest from a nearby parish) a mass (our rector) and lots and lots of quiet time interspersed with times of quiet non-directed conversation. What surprised me is how many people came out for this and how many said they look forward to this every year. I had never seen this done before.

  42. Did anybody say pseudo-whelmed? That would be faking it to get somebody else to do the laundry for once.

  43. siteseer wrote:

    It seems like a lot of these events are all about selling you something that is already freely available to you

    I think most of them are more about selling the submission/subjugation of women.

  44. Nancy2 wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    It seems like a lot of these events are all about selling you something that is already freely available to you

    I think most of them are more about selling the submission/subjugation of women.

    It boggles my mind that women listen to this nonsense.

  45. I am always amazed at the lack of self-awareness and sense of irony among those women who write books and speak at conferences, often traveling far from home to do so, given that their primary message to the hearers is to live within a man-made (no pun intended) fence and give up any dreams of fulfilling their calling to the full extent of the gifting God has given them. It is a paradigm shift without a clutch. I often think that in a way they are leading women to a place of slaughtering their dreams in a similar way to that of a Judas goat leading others to slaughter. The Judas goat walks away alive, perhaps even esteemed, by their masters…

  46. I just found an article Carolyn McCulley wrote about “sexual predators and discernment,” as it pertains to sexual abuse at a non-SGM Church she attended.

    https://www.reviveourhearts.com/true-woman/blog/discernment-and-sexual-predators/

    I think she subtly blames the teenage victims of unwanted sexual contact, in this article, for the abuse they’ve endured, yet I’ll let others make up their minds about that, of course.

    I definitely have an anti-McCulley bias.

  47. mot wrote:

    It boggles my mind that women listen to this nonsense.

    Not just listen to it, but $$$$$ PAY $$$$$ for the privilege!

  48. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    “Gene Emerson, former regional leader in SGM and senior pastor of KingsWay Community Church in Midlothian, VA, was arrested on May 29 [2015] for the solicitation of prostitution in Chesterfield County, VA. He was arraigned on June 9. He was found guilty and sentenced on July 9.

    “Bait a trap with p*ssy and you’ll catch a preacher every time.”
    — one of Christian Monist’s uncles

    He is a close friend of C.J. Mahaney’s and known for carrying out vengeful assignments given him by Mahaney. ( http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/gene-emerson-former-regional-leader-for-sgm-found-guilty-for.html )

    So he was The Humble One’s HATCHETMAN?
    (chuckle chuckle)

  49. Nancy2 wrote:

    mot wrote:

    It boggles my mind that women listen to this nonsense.

    Not just listen to it, but $$$$$ PAY $$$$$ for the privilege!

    “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
    — P.T.Barnum

    “I go chop you dolla;
    I make you money disappear;
    Four-one-nine just a game;
    You be the mugu,
    I be the Masta!”
    — “I Go Chop You Dolla”, Nigerian pop song about a swindler/con man

  50. Deb wrote:

    You have done a yeoman’s work discussing the church Carolyn McCulley helped plant. I continue to be amazed that it withdrew from Sovereign Grace Ministries and joined Acts 29.

    It’s a good bet that somebody else has mentioned it in passing here at TWW, but does anybody else see the sheer hubris in ‘Acts 29’ as an organization label?

  51. Max wrote:

    mot wrote:

    the SBC is gone and will never come back

    Yep, I don’t even see it gasping for breath at this point. There may be some potluck dinners still taking place, but there’s not enough spiritual power in the house to blow the dust off a peanut!

    No Christ, only CALVIN.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg7MAacSPNM

  52. Muff Potter wrote:

    It’s a good bet that somebody else has mentioned it in passing here at TWW, but does anybody else see the sheer hubris in ‘Acts 29’ as an organization label?

    That anything like titling yourself “Head Apostle of the People of Destiny”?

  53. @ Janna L. Chan:
    Correction/Clarification:

    McCulley talks about two Churches, one she attended and one’s she’s using as a reference point.

    “Most recently, I recalled it as I read about a youth director in a local church who for five years was sexually involved with many girls from the youth group. The church did a poor job in vetting the hiring of this man (his previous employer told them about inappropriate contact with a fourteen-year-old girl), in considering the doctrine of sin (“the senior pastor said he was shocked to hear that his youth director could be involved in inappropriate behavior”), and in observing and correcting his questionable public interactions with the teen girls (cuddling, personal attention, partying). What’s commendable, however, is that the church has undergone a long, public transformation process to correct the problems and create a church responsive to victims of sexual abuse.”

    https://www.reviveourhearts.com/true-woman/blog/discernment-and-sexual-predators/

    So in 2011 when this article was written, Carolyn McCulley commended a non-SGM church for creating a “church responsive to victims of sexual abuse.”

    In 2016, she still hasn’t said anything about the fact that criminal convictions have proven that Covenant Life Church, that employed her and which she attended for many years, is still denying that it covered up any instances of child sexual abuse.

    Carolyn McCulley is a piece of work.

  54. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    McCulley … “Godly singleness” brand

    Elizabeth Elliott taught “surrendered to singleness” to young women … but was married three times!

  55. “In 2016, she still hasn’t said anything about the fact that criminal convictions have proven that Covenant Life Church, that employed her and which she attended for many years, is still denying that it covered up any instances of child sexual abuse.”

    That came out a little strangely in my previous comment. In 2011, Carolyn McCulley criticized a Church she never attended for handling sexual abuse allegations poorly.

    However, she hasn’t written any articles or made any public statements about the fact that testimony given in criminal trials has proven that her former long-time Church, Covenant Life Church, has been covering up instances of child sexual abuse for decades.

    Therefore, McCulley is a miserable hypocrite.

  56. mot wrote:

    It boggles my mind that women listen to this nonsense.

    Sweet dreams are made of this
    Who am I to disagree?
    I travel the world and the seven seas
    Everybody’s looking for something

    — The Eurythmics 1983 —

  57. Mae wrote:

    It’s like a virus/cancer…..comes in by stealth, destroying the body, before it even knew it was sick.

    “There will be false teachers among you, who will subtly introduce destructive teachings … many will follow them …the way of truth will be maligned … they will exploit you with false arguments and twisted doctrine” (2 Peter 2).

  58. Nancy2 wrote:

    They need to just stop it with these stupid segregated women’s retreats/conferences and men’s retreats/conferences! Either we are all part of the Body, or we are not.

    You will not find that pattern for “doing church” in the New Testament. But, Praise God, there still is the Church within the church which understands that we are ALL one in Christ … that will ALWAYS be the TRUTH for the Body of Christ, while the rest of religion play their games.

  59. Nancy2 wrote:

    It really struck me immediately that the wallpaper for McCulley’s website is all about purses and shoes.

    Too much caffeine.

  60. Nancy2 wrote:

    If the men would stoop low enough to do the cooking and child-care, and skip the songs that have alto/soprano parts, there would be no use for women whatsoever in the churches!

    A new day will dawn Nancy2. All this old stuff, institutionalized, and based solely on plumbing received at birth will end, and the forests really will echo with laughter…

  61. Christiane wrote:

    I was thinking about my cousins in Plymouth NC and how on the hottest days of summer, they are completely coiffed and serene.

    That’s either spiritual contentment or medication. ;^)

  62. Muff Potter wrote:

    Best life advice I’ve heard yet.

    Jesus was really good about that! The problem with the 21st century church is that we depend more on Christian psychology than Christ.

  63. Max wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:
    Best life advice I’ve heard yet.
    Jesus was really good about that! The problem with the 21st century church is that we depend more on Christian psychology than Christ.

    I’d be really careful about aligning with the incompetent, dangerous Nouthetic Counseling movement. They are anti-science, anti-medicine, anti-psychology, anti-psychiatry and are incredibly dumb and dangerous. I saw that brad of “counseling” by pastors/elders wholly untrained do a horrific amount of damage at my ex-church.

    There is a time and place for licensed professionals who are actually trained to help me. Bless them.

  64. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The “-whelmed” part of overwhelmed comes from an old English verb “whelmen”, meaning to turn upside-down.

    DoneBeinWhelmed – Total avoidance of authoritarian pastors

  65. Muff Potter wrote:

    does anybody else see the sheer hubris in ‘Acts 29’ as an organization label?

    Well, it’s a cool name, and cool is more important than true. In a world where a noticeably un-humble man can write a book called Humility which is still promoted widely by the coolest of the cool YRRs, naming an organization “Acts 29” is not only possible but laudable. Acts 29 and the rest of the Gospel Glitterati make stuff up that is not in the Bible, so why not?

  66. Bill M wrote:

    DoneBeinWhelmed – Total avoidance of authoritarian pastors

    Sunderwhelmed. Being keyed out of a 9Marksy church. Alternatively, to escape through the insufficiently locked back door of a 9Marksy church.

  67. Now that CJ song is going to be stuck in my head all day! In what universe is that sort of thing a good idea?

    I might be CeeJay-whelmed.

  68. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    I think she subtly blames the teenage victims of unwanted sexual contact, in this article, for the abuse they’ve endured, yet I’ll let others make up their minds about that, of course.

    While I was put off by the title of her blog “True Woman” I find myself in agreement with her on the discernment. The tacky part of her presentation, that likely gives rise to the reaction of blaming victims, was using herself as the “wise at seventeen” example when confronted by an abuser.

    Granted there is a time and place to instruct others but when someone else is grieving is not the time to point out their errors. Taking an entirely different subject, someone gets lost in the back-country and makes wrong decisions and perishes. I’m in a quandary when it is reported that the outcome was inevitable when only one or two key different decisions would enhance survival if not assure it. The problem is when the story is out is not the time to speak of their errors, unless you are a dolt like Piper and want to promote it as an example of Gods judgement.

    So when is a good time and venue to tell young people how to avoid being victims of abuse? That is another subject, but don’t use yourself as the example of wise discernment.

  69. On a slight tangent, I have been pondering the democratic process in the US in general, and the upcoming election in particular.

    There has been much controversy surrounding this. However, you’ll be relieved to know that it can all now be laid to rest. Following extensive prayer and study of God’s Word as revealed in the biblical scriptures, I can say with full confidence that, on November 8th this year, Christian voters should

  70. Lea wrote:

    “proud aunt of X nieces and nephews’? Am I supposed to be putting that sort of thing in a profile?
    I”m sort of terrified to see what her ‘did I kiss marriage goodbye’ book says.
    drstevej wrote:
    I was Whelmed by this article. Thanks
    Can you ever just be whelmed?
    I think you can in Europe.
    *10 things I hate about you*

    I blogged about her book:

    https://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/does-kissing-dating-goodbye-lead-to-kissing-marriage-goodbye/

    Carolyn seems to see no connection behind her embrace of kissing dating goodbye and her never getting married.

    That is something that she hides her past involvement with SGM. As much as some Babtist groups seem to be pro Mahaney (despite Mahaney’s blatant sin) I am even more surprised she hid it.

  71. ishy wrote:

    Womens’ ministry is normally mystifying to me, even though I’m a woman. I’m not a girly woman. I hate pink, and I used to be rather goth. I’ve gone into womens’ classes and events, and everything is so flowery and overdone, and it seems like people who run womens’ ministry events are only allowed to use one decorating style. Often they talk down to women like they are all dumb, and most classes are about being a wife or mother, not the Bible.
    But then, they do stuff like this, picking the worst people to speak. Sometimes it makes me wonder if they just get so desperate to find people that they take whoever is available. I’m not terribly surprised that it’s North Carolina, as I assume the convention there is fairly Calvinista-controlled with SEBTS’ influence.
    The kids who came to Liberty from SGM (PDI) churches were terribly broken. Most hated the church, and went to LU because their parents made them go. Many of them had been so controlled and sheltered their entire lives that they either started rebelling as soon as they got there, or they turned around and tried to control others. I’ve met some very angry former SGMers, who took their anger out on everyone around them. There is nothing good or godly that comes out of heavy shepherding movements.

    This experience you had with SGM kids might be an interesting blog post for the Deebs to do sometime. Sad that this was the end result for so many.

  72. @ Bill M:
    Thanks, Bill. I guess what got my goat was not so much what Carolyn McCulley said, but what she didn’t say. That’s why I was saying that her “blame the victim” message was subtle.

    If teenagers or young adult women are encountering sexually predatory men, they need to report that behavior to the police and/or other trusted civil and Church authorities, in my opinion. However, McCulley never directly raises the fact that the behavior in question may be criminal and completely unjustifiable, in her article.

    Instead, by focusing on discernment, McCulley makes it sound as though the burden of avoiding unwanted advances should primarily be placed on the girls and young women in question. And yes, as you noted, she does imply that she was more mature than the girls who fell victim to the youth leader in question, even though she knows nothing about the specific circumstances of their cases.

    In addition, some of McCulley’s other statements seemed to place men in the “right” inherently, on some level. For example, she suggests that part of the problem was that the predatory youth leader was a young man just a few years older than his charges.

    So is she saying that no 22-year-old can keep his hands off teenage girls because all men are inherently sexually predatory at that age and girls just need to put up with that by finding strategies for avoiding them? Or that most sexual predators aren’t over age 22?

    The whole article treated sexual abuse at Churches like a problem that needs to be handled internally, rather than a crime that the civil authorities need to address.

    Given that that was the policy of the Church Carolyn McCulley was attending at the time, perhaps her perspective should hardly be surprising.

  73. Some better news:

    Liverpool won 4-2 at Selhurst Park today, keeping up the pressure on Arsenal and ManCity who both head us on goal difference.

    Some less good news: we still conceded two goals, and a leaky defence will probably still be the difference between us and the title.

    Still to come: cricket.

    IHTIH

  74. @ Bill M:
    Thanks for the response, Bill. I guess the key issue is deciding what actions constitute wise discernment regarding addressing sexual abuse.

    I think that wise discerning teenagers should report sexual abuse to civil authorities who are in a position to investigate and take action about it.

    Based on her article, McCulley seems to think that wise discerning teenagers should only let Church leaders address allegations of sexual abuse.

    Again, I’m basing some of my assumptions on what McCulley doesn’t say, as opposed to her direct statements.

    I don’t like this woman but acknowledge that she’s a very skilled writer and speaker who won’t directly say highly offensive things. She’ll just insinuate them.

  75. @ Janna L. Chan:

    I agree with this: “we need to instill discernment in young girls so that they can more readily identify abusers and predators. ”

    But she suggestions are a mess. You cannot simultaneously tell a fifteen year old that she is under authority and not allowed to judge these men, and at the same time tell them they are supposed to be looking at the qualifications for leaders. Most of these are ‘any man who wants you is bad’. Which skips a whole bunch of important stuff! Why does she not mention age difference issues, positions of trust and abuse there? Why is it all basically ‘avoid sex’? Not helpful for discerning between a predator and a boyfriend IMO.

  76. And Now: cricket.

    The Second Test between Bangladesh and England resumes tomorrow with Bangladesh on 153-3 in their second innings, a lead of 128.

    So, England – who are not in, but are also not out – must try to get Bangladesh out, thus putting themselves in and Bangladesh in the field, though again, having been out, they’re no longer either in or out in the technical sense. Then, Bangladesh will try to get England out. The batting side, remember, are in, and the bowling side are trying to get them out. “In” and “out” are not to be confused with the infield and the outfield, both of which refer to areas of the ground (not the pitch, which is the small section in the middle of the infield on which those who are in, bat) occupied by the fielding side, rather than the side who are in. Likewise, the pitch is not to be confused with the wicket, which is that part of the pitch on which the ball bounces and is often used figuratively to describe the general quality and nature of the playing surface. “Wicket” in the sense of “playing surface” is not to be confused with “wicket” in the sense of the combination of stumps and bails defended by those who are in. It is also not to be confused with “wicket” in the sense of a player who is in, or part of the side who are in but yet to bat, insofar as he contributes to the batting side’s total whilst in.

    IHTIH

  77. Bill M wrote:

    The tacky part of her presentation, that likely gives rise to the reaction of blaming victims, was using herself as the “wise at seventeen” example when confronted by an abuser.

    There is a bit of hubris here – I saw through this man why couldn’t you? There is no consideration that she may have been raised in a way that made her able to see what was wrong, or that she was lucky, or even that she didn’t find the man attractive and so wasn’t able to be swayed by flattery! There is no acknowledgment that some predators are more skilled than others. Some liars are more skilled than others. Maybe she figured this out not because she was so awesome, but because the man wasn’t as good at grooming.

    But the idea that it’s the girls fault somehow for the hiring decisions in the church that they really had nothing to do with is beyond the pale.

  78. Muff Potter wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    You have done a yeoman’s work discussing the church Carolyn McCulley helped plant. I continue to be amazed that it withdrew from Sovereign Grace Ministries and joined Acts 29.
    It’s a good bet that somebody else has mentioned it in passing here at TWW, but does anybody else see the sheer hubris in ‘Acts 29’ as an organization label?

    At least 29 Acts of blatant, arrogant heresy …….. Or 29 Acts of blatant heretical arrogance.

  79. Something about being “overwhelmed” like I said in another post. If I ever even hinted at being overwhelmed about anything I would have been dutifully and spiritually filled that I am a whiner, complainer, self-centered, did not trust Jesus, in sin, fallen away, deceived, arrogant, manipulative…

    Being overwhelmed is only for mid-management or above.

    These people do not live in the same universe as many of us do.

  80. brian wrote:

    These people do not live in the same universe as many of us do.

    I do not know what universe they are living in, but they sure are messing up churches and christian’s lives.

  81. Lea wrote:

    You cannot simultaneously tell a fifteen year old that she is under authority and not allowed to judge these men, and at the same time tell them they are supposed to be looking at the qualifications for leaders.

    Good point, authoritarians and their minions do have a problem when they try to instruct people to have a healthy suspicion for those who claim authority.

  82. @ Max:
    One of Flannery O’Connor’s more deranged chatacters formed “The True Church of Jesus Without Christ”.

  83. brian wrote:

    Something about being “overwhelmed” like I said in another post. If I ever even hinted at being overwhelmed about anything I would have been dutifully and spiritually filled that I am a whiner, complainer, self-centered, did not trust Jesus, in sin, fallen away, deceived, arrogant, manipulative…
    Being overwhelmed is only for mid-management or above.
    These people do not live in the same universe as many of us do.

    Sadly, too true.
    Sabbaticals, ( need to write the new book ), weekend getaways ( for refreshment of course) to the mountains/shores, household help, etc. are the marks of having made it, in the “gospel” circuits.
    For the rest of the sheep, you better work at your job, fifty hours week, and make sure you are serving the church every time the doors are open.

  84. Ken F wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    And it’s somebody else’s turn now

    Malwhelm: to overturn with bad or evil intent, as in the conservative resurgence.

    So much damage done by the CR! I still find it hard to believe how christians could intentionally destroy Christian’s lives.

  85. Mae wrote:

    Sabbaticals, ( need to write the new book ), weekend getaways ( for refreshment of course) to the mountains/shores, household help, etc. are the marks of having made it, in the “gospel” circuits.
    For the rest of the sheep, you better work at your job, fifty hours week, and make sure you are serving the church every time the doors are open.

    Theory of the Leisure Class, Veblen.

    “Every society rests on a mudsill of brute labor. We are just more honest about ours.”
    — President of the Confederate States of America, Harry Turtledove’s Guns of the South

  86. Lea wrote:

    Why is it all basically ‘avoid sex’?

    Because sex not only makes people stupid, it makes Christians stupid AND crazy.

  87. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    I don’t like this woman but acknowledge that she’s a very skilled writer and speaker who won’t directly say highly offensive things. She’ll just insinuate them.

    Plausible Deniability fallback worthy of my NPD/sociopath brother.

  88. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    Based on her article, McCulley seems to think that wise discerning teenagers should only let Church leaders address allegations of sexual abuse.

    The same Church leaders who always seem to have court-favorite pet pedos and/or are involved in sex scandals themselves? (With a lot of preference for Jail Bait…)

    Pastor and Pastor’s Pet Pedo have to Polish their Shafts, you know…

  89. Bill M wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The “-whelmed” part of overwhelmed comes from an old English verb “whelmen”, meaning to turn upside-down.

    DoneBeinWhelmed – Total avoidance of authoritarian pastors

    I Kissed Whelming Goodbye?

  90. mot wrote:

    So much damage done by the CR! I still find it hard to believe how christians could intentionally destroy Christian’s lives.

    “Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition Conservative Resurgence!”

  91. Velour wrote:

    I’d be really careful about aligning with the incompetent, dangerous Nouthetic Counseling movement. They are anti-science, anti-medicine, anti-psychology, anti-psychiatry and are incredibly dumb and dangerous

    Noutheics is Scientology without the E-Meters.

    Counseling… Auditing… Counseling… Auditing…
    Noutheics… Dianetics… Noutheics… Dianetics…
    Twins separated at birth?

  92. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    And it’s somebody else’s turn now

    Winsomewhelm: to turn everything upside down while faking innocence and putting on a plastic smile.

  93. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I’d be really careful about aligning with the incompetent, dangerous Nouthetic Counseling movement. They are anti-science, anti-medicine, anti-psychology, anti-psychiatry and are incredibly dumb and dangerous
    Noutheics is Scientology without the E-Meters.
    Counseling… Auditing… Counseling… Auditing…
    Noutheics… Dianetics… Noutheics… Dianetics…
    Twins separated at birth?

    Yes.

    And my complete comment wasn’t made properly…alas ‘auto incorrect’.

  94. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    The whole article treated sexual abuse at Churches like a problem that needs to be handled internally, rather than a crime that the civil authorities need to address.

    Carolyn McCulley isn’t just sick but sickening.

  95. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    And Now: cricket.

    Nick,

    I think all of us greatly appreciate your explanations for this totally incomprehensible game, but some of your comments may not be getting through due to the British to American translation issue. I found this brief video by American Reginald D. Hunter that may help us on this side of the pond appreciate Cricket better.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83oa1S0x9zI

  96. Lydia wrote:

    @ Janna L. Chan:
    Also Nancy DeMoss, the heiress, who made comp doctrine her brand. She finally married last year at age 57.

    Blech. I can’t stand her.

    She was for most of her life a single version of Michelle Duggar. I don’t trust those sickeningly sweet women. There’s something very aggressive about them. Manipulative.

    And (insurance?) heiress Nancy DeMoss’ ministry sent letters around the world for people to congratulate her on her engagement (and impending marriage) and to of course donate money. People in Australia said that they got these letters.

    Why are we supposed to give an heiress’ ministry money? Don’t our own family, friends, and communities have needs?

  97. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    And Now: cricket.

    I was watching an old rerun of “Hogan’s Heros” a few nights ago. Richard Dawson’s character used the phrase “a bit of a sticky wicket”. I assume that is cricket related?
    It’s late October in Kentucky. Not too many crickets still chirping here.

  98. Lydia wrote:

    Also Nancy DeMoss, the heiress, who made comp doctrine her brand. She finally married last year at age 57.

    If she supports the quiverfull movement, I’d say she is a total failure.

  99. Nancy2 wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Also Nancy DeMoss, the heiress, who made comp doctrine her brand. She finally married last year at age 57.
    If she supports the quiverfull movement, I’d say she is a total failure.

    LOL!

  100. Ken F wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    And it’s somebody else’s turn now
    Winsomewhelm: to turn everything upside down while faking innocence and putting on a plastic smile.

    Exactly.

  101. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    I often think that in a way they are leading women to a place of slaughtering their dreams in a similar way to that of a Judas goat leading others to slaughter. The Judas goat walks away alive, perhaps even esteemed, by their masters…

    Wow, that’s a really good analogy.

  102. brian wrote:

    Something about being “overwhelmed” like I said in another post. If I ever even hinted at being overwhelmed about anything I would have been dutifully and spiritually filled that I am a whiner, complainer, self-centered, did not trust Jesus, in sin, fallen away, deceived, arrogant, manipulative…

    In dysfunctional families, children are blamed for having normal needs because the adults are self-centered and don’t want to be bothered. I guess there are churches that function just the same.

  103. @ Max:

    True, Max. However, at least Elizabeth Elliott was single between husbands.

    By contrast, Carolyn McCulley, as Deb pointed out, is ministering to married women even though she hasn’t tied the knot. To my knowledge, McCulley’s never even formally courted anyone, yet she considers herself something of a relationship expert according to blog posts she wrote several years ago. She stopped blogging some time ago.

    @Steve240: No, McCulley does not seem to see any possible relationship between shunning dating and missing the marriage boat.

    @Nancy2: McCulley used to talk a lot about shoes and clothes in her blog posts, too. That’s okay but I’m not sure why being a fashionista is the focus of her book cover. McCulley was more down-to-earth but her new image is very chic.

    I’m not sure what the average complementarian stay-at-home mom would have in common with her at this point.

  104. siteseer wrote:

    Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
    I often think that in a way they are leading women to a place of slaughtering their dreams in a similar way to that of a Judas goat leading others to slaughter. The Judas goat walks away alive, perhaps even esteemed, by their masters…

    Wow, that’s a really good analogy.

    Yes! I’ve been mulling CoE’s statement over in comparison to Elisabeth Elliot’s, “Well, I have always said since God made me to be a doormat, I will be the best doormat I can be.”

  105. I’m not surprised that she doesn’t mention Sovereign Grace Ministries, since even CJ Mahaney himself doesn’t include any reference to SGM or Covenant Life Church in his bio

  106. Edward wrote:

    CJ Mahaney himself doesn’t include any reference to SGM or Covenant Life Church in his bio

    I guess there is too much garbage connected with those names now. 🙁

  107. @ Deb:

    Ha ha, he’s quite a chameleon, that guy! I have noticed something relevant about a number of the conferences that our boy CJ has spoken at in the last few years: usually the other speakers have thorough paragraphs on the conference website, detailing their current and past associations (churches they pastored or founded, positions at seminaries and parachurch organizations, etc); By contrast, CJ’s bio is very short, usually mentioning only his current church and some nonsense about his sports fandom. I’ve been saying since at least 2014, why would you invite someone to speak if you obviously are afraid of what people will find if they start Googling?

  108. Velour wrote:

    There is a time and place for licensed professionals who are actually trained to help me. Bless them.

    One of my degrees is in Psychology and I would strongly suggest that you need to discerning in your choice of licensed help there also. The field has genuine good people but also more than it’s share of people with severe personality disorders and kinkyness. e.g. Kinsey and his followers.

  109. Edward wrote:

    why would you invite someone to speak if you obviously are afraid of what people will find if they start Googling?

    Because your followers are so deep into the Koolaid, they don’t google?

  110. Nancy2 wrote:

    I was watching an old rerun of “Hogan’s Heros” a few nights ago. Richard Dawson’s character used the phrase “a bit of a sticky wicket”. I assume that is cricket related?

    You’re quite right.

    It’s an older phrase, dating back to the days when the pitch – the 22-yard strip of grass on which the batsmen stand – was not covered overnight and could become soft in wet weather. This meant that the ball would sink slightly when it landed in front of them, causing an unpredictably low bounce – creating the impression it had stuck to the ground.

    A sticky wicket could be virtually unplayable for the batsmen, regardless of skill or concentration; hence it became a metaphor for unusually difficult circumstances.

  111. Nancy2 wrote:

    Yes! [To Eutychus’ cousin’s “Judas Goat” analogy]
    I’ve been mulling CoE’s statement over in comparison to Elisabeth Elliot’s, “Well, I have always said since God made me to be a doormat, I will be the best doormat I can be.”

    The idea that God made anybody to be a doormat is grotesque at a number of levels. Is God a doormat? Was Jesus (same question, different wording) a doormat? Would Jesus call his followers to a lifestyle at odds with his own character?

    If indeed the story as related above is true, it would be more concerning that someone who considered that to be her calling would attempt to influence others to adopt it as theirs.

  112. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    It seems to me that what she said is a variation of Job’s experience, except that in this case, it is not a foolish woman speaking, but a man. Job 2:10.

  113. @ Velour:
    Agreed, especially as she was a victim of abuse herself, on some level, but isn’t helping other women at her former Church despite holding herself up as a role model for Godly womanhood.

  114. Its all about the brand. Some use incidents like SGM’s implosion to distance themselves, and some use it to knit even tighter bonds. But the end game is the same – making money. So transparent, and transparently awful.

  115. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Its all about the brand. Some use incidents like SGM’s implosion to distance themselves, and some use it to knit even tighter bonds. But the end game is the same – making money. So transparent, and transparently awful.

    Do these people ever consider they will have to give an account to God someday?

  116. mot wrote:

    Do these people ever consider they will have to give an account to God someday?

    When you are a member of the “predestined elect” and have come into the world for such a time as this (to “reform” the rest of us), you view God’s judgment differently I guess. Neither do these folks seem to pay much attention to what Scripture says about the terror of the Lord and the fact that God is not mocked. Being deceived and deceiving others is such a dangerous game.

  117. bc wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    There is a time and place for licensed professionals who are actually trained to help me. Bless them.
    One of my degrees is in Psychology and I would strongly suggest that you need to discerning in your choice of licensed help there also. The field has genuine good people but also more than it’s share of people with severe personality disorders and kinkyness. e.g. Kinsey and his followers.

    Of course in every business we have to be careful.

    But I was forced into more than 6-months of meetings at my ex-church by pastors/elders who believed in Nouthetic Counseling to treat problems and were forcing me (and others) to have “unity” with an older, problem widow. Said widow was a practicing alcoholic. She needed to be under a physician’s care for alcoholism and in a treatment program. It wasn’t possible for us to have “unity” with an untreated substance abuser. Her chronic acting out at church, lying about people, relentless story-telling and drama was rooted in alcoholism.

    I was required to spend 8-years in meetings about another hateful older woman and to have unity with her. She constantly verbally lashed out at others, including telling attenders not to come to church. And they never came again after being humiliated by her in public. OK, she should have been in professional therapy years ago to deal with her rage about her past, in particular her childhood.

    I was blamed for the memory problems of a woman church member with Dyslexia. OK, it’s a brain disorder that’s genetically inherited that involves not just reading problems but memory problems: short-term memory problems, working memory problems, and auditory memory problems. She failed school, can’t work, was medically diagnosed with this condition, and has gotten a monthly disability check from the Social Security Administration for more than thirty years. She refused to get medical care for her problems and couldn’t remember entire events, saying they had never occurred. The pastors/elders were enraged by her stories and accusations, taking her side. But her stories weren’t true. Scripture verses aren’t going to cut it when she has a major memory disorder and it is getting worse.

    I look at the years of my life wasted by incompetent pastors/elders who don’t believe in licensed medical care or counseling. It wasn’t funny. Any of it. And none of those church members got the help they needed.

  118. mot wrote:

    Do these people ever consider they will have to give an account to God someday?

    You’ve got to be kidding! These people don’t even seem to believe in God, much less worrying about giving an account of themselves to Him…

  119. bc wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    There is a time and place for licensed professionals who are actually trained to help me. Bless them.
    One of my degrees is in Psychology and I would strongly suggest that you need to discerning in your choice of licensed help there also. The field has genuine good people but also more than it’s share of people with severe personality disorders and kinkyness. e.g. Kinsey and his followers.

    By the way, are you licensed and practicing?

    When and where did you get your degree?

    I am a surprised you Kinsey’s name in this discussion, to refute the importance of psychotherapy, since Kinsey died 60 years ago. We don’t write off computers because of how they worked (or didn’t) 60 years ago.

  120. @ Velour:

    My take on psychology and psychiatry as someone who suffers from the symptoms of bipolar depression

    I’m bipolar and tend to side with people who have a high opinion of both modern psychology and modern psychiatry, although I, too, am aware that there are many bad psychologists and bad psychiatrists out there.

    There are also lots of awful pastors, lawyers, and accountants running around but that’s not a good reason to disparage or dismiss all the people who work in those professions, in my view. I’m not saying that’s what anyone commenting on this blog is doing, yet the anti-psychology/psychiatry mentality in question is very common in authoritarian conservative Churches, in my experience.

    I literally owe by my life and quality of life to the work of scientists and doctors who create and prescribe the 6-8 medications I need to take a day to function well. As a former Pastor at an Episcopal Church I attended told me when I was hesitant to take medication for depression and anxiety (the bipolar diagnosis came much later because I’m low-level on the manic side), “Janna, I’ve seen drugs change people’s lives. I think that the good Lord put scientists and doctors on this earth for very good reasons.”

    Based on what I’ve observed over the past 5+ years of my advocacy work against sexual abuse in Churches, unlicensed so-called Christian counselors have absolutely no idea how to treat mental illness or take actions that ensure a sexual abuse victim is well cared for .

    Furthermore, these “Christian counselors” are sometimes regularly employed by Churches because the Church’s leadership doesn’t want a sexual abuse victim to go to a licensed psychologist, because that person will feel professionally obligated to report the abuse to the police instead of encouraging the victim to let the Church handle crimes “internally.”

    Therefore, I encourage people to steer clear of Christian counselors, who have no clinical training whatsoever, even though I’m sure there are Christian counselors who try to be responsible.

    Please note, that suggestion doesn’t apply to licensed psychologists who are also Christians.

    The odds simply are not in your favor regarding getting effective medical help from unlicensed non-professionals trying to treat real diseases, and several prominent “Christian counseling” organizations do some extremely unethical things to support their real clients, corrupt Churches covering up crimes like spousal and child sexual abuse.

    A Psychiatrist is just a medical doctor
    I would also point out there’s a big difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist. A psychiatrist is generally a medical doctor who primarily addresses the genetic and/or very distressing situational symptoms of mental illness by prescribing medications to treat them.

    By contrast, a psychologist usually focuses on how problems like severe anxiety and depression manifest themselves in people’s lives on a more abstract level.

    Hence, even if folks have a problem with some ideas presented by modern psychology, there’s no reason they can’t see a medical doctor who can prescribe medications that will likely greatly alleviate symptoms of anxiety, depression, mania, etc.

    About 1/4 of Americans suffers from some kind of diagnose-able mental illness at any given time. That’s about how many folks suffer from allergies, yet there’s no stigma to going to an allergist.

    Or suggestion that one needs to go to a Christian allergist rather than a non-Christian one. 😉

    Thanks!

  121. siteseer wrote:

    Edward wrote:
    why would you invite someone to speak if you obviously are afraid of what people will find if they start Googling?
    Because your followers are so deep into the Koolaid, they don’t google?

    Were SGM churches among those that discouraged people from going on the internet? Sort of the idea that “Google” is next to “gossip” in their dictionary.

  122. bc wrote:

    One of my degrees is in Psychology and I would strongly suggest that you need to discerning in your choice of licensed help there also. The field has genuine good people but also more than it’s share of people with severe personality disorders and kinkyness. e.g. Kinsey and his followers.

    I so agree with this. Add doctors, dentists, lawyers, message therapists, and any licensed professional to the "be discerning" list. A license "guarantees" some knowledge, but not necessarily wisdom or morals.

  123. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Was Jesus (same question, different wording) a doormat?

    But see, I think in their twisted logic, it works. Jesus washed his disciples’ feet. He talked about the first going last and the last going first, and the greatest were the servants.

    In a very odd way, the men in our former church had the atttude that they were honoring the women by putting them on this sort of servants’ pedestal. Or something to that effect. They didn’t put it in so many words, but they did say something about holding women in special honor. All the while squishing them down further, with more and more restrictions as time went on.

  124. Velour wrote:

    By the way, are you licensed and practicing?
    When and where did you get your degree?
    I am a surprised you Kinsey’s name in this discussion, to refute the importance of psychotherapy,

    You may have misread bc’s comment. He\she was not refuting the importance of psychotherapy from what I understood of her\his comment.

  125. Bridget wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    By the way, are you licensed and practicing?
    When and where did you get your degree?
    I am a surprised you Kinsey’s name in this discussion, to refute the importance of psychotherapy,
    You may have misread bc’s comment. He\she was not refuting the importance of psychotherapy from what I understood of her\his comment.

    Bridget,

    Would you kindly stop. I asked a question. I read what BC wrote. I’d like clarification from BC.

  126. refugee wrote:

    Were SGM churches among those that discouraged people from going on the internet? Sort of the idea that “Google” is next to “gossip” in their dictionary.

    Yep.

  127. @ Velour:

    I have previously expressed the same opinions and cautions that bc has expressed. I base my opinions on the following: some stuff I observed during my psych rotation during nursing school, a lot of stuff that I observed during that year after med school and internship in which I was a psych resident and full time on staff of a psych hospital, and on some of the anecdotal stories I have heard from individuals since then including one disaster involving a family member. I also take into consideration the current public health issue of the excessive use of mood altering drugs and apparent excessive diagnoses of ADHD, most of that being from physicians and PA who are not adequately trained in mental health issues.

    To be a little less subjective and a little more objective, during the year that I was a psych resident, out of a total number of fewer than residents in all three years, two were themselves actually hospitalized due to a psych diagnosis and one psych prof on the med school faculty chose suicide for himself. On a less dramatic level my job included initial evaluation and assignment of a provisional diagnosis to adult women admitted on the acute ward, and then to present those workups to a panel of three adjunct staff (usually only two showed up). Here is the thing, they never agreed with me (okay) but they never agreed with each other either. So if all three were there the only thing they agreed on was that each had his own opinion and everybody else was off base.

    So, being who I am and having long since abandoned any pretense of trying to fool myself, and always trying see some good in some sort of solution I concluded: thank goodness these guys got out of ‘real’ medicine before they did some real damage. They did not do any real damage because we only had minimal diagnostic options and even more minimal meds to choose from and basically there was a lot of guess work given the state of the science at the time.

    IMO, if psych were a hard science with some predictable results and objective observational realities which could be quantified and identified then the vacuum would not be there for paper back self helps and nouthetic stuff and inadequately trained medical practitioners and crazy religion. But since it is not, then reliance must be on the ability and integrity of the individual practitioner and that is an individual choice which cannot be determined by any curriculum vitae or any license on any wall.

  128. @ refugee:

    I see what you are saying, Refugee, and agree that this seemed to be the thinking of some. But it begs the question, "Why aren't those people doing the servant's work themselves?"

  129. Velour wrote:

    Would you kindly stop.

    What am I supposed to stop? Am I not supposed to respond to anything you write for some reason?

  130. Bridget wrote:

    A license “guarantees” some knowledge, but not necessarily wisdom or morals.

    A license to practice counseling USUALLY indicates a unversity degree at least at the Master’s level, which involved practicum training in the field under supervision, plus adherence to a code of ethics that preclude the nonsense going on in ‘nouthetic’ counseling as described in neo-Cal practice by non-professionals.

    Licensing requires standards, BRIDGET. You don’t get a professional degree and state licensure without the understanding of a high professional standard of ethics

  131. @ Bridget:
    Bridget, you do understand what a professional code of ethics is, don’t you? People can lose their professional licenses IF they violate their professional code of ethics. I would hope that you do some looking into the preparation for professional licensed counseling before making blanket statements dismissing it, especially on a site where so many victims of abuse have suffered from the wrong kind of treatment and may be in great need of professional help.

    A victim of abuse deserves the best care possible. Discouraging that care is not productive on a site like TWW. I would hope that victims would be encouraged to reach out, to tell their stories, and to seek all the help they need professionally.

  132. @ Velour:
    I am so glad that you were able to get the help you needed and realized that there were serious problems in this church.

    I don’t know how you stayed in such a situation for so long only that you are probably stronger than you realize.

    Your sharing your insights and experiences undoubtedly is helping others. Saying that I do not advocate staying in a situation that forces people to become abused and victims and am glad that you are no longer part of that situation.

    The pattern of blaming the victim goes on and on. Creating victims and then blaming them has no place in the church.

    God Bless

  133. okrapod wrote:

    IMO, if psych were a hard science with some predictable results and objective observational realities which could be quantified and identified then the vacuum

    Hi, just a friendly observation here.

    I’m confused by this comment as psychiatry, which appears to be the medical field in which you have some practical experience, is definitely based on quantifiable results as reflected by the scientific method, just like any other type of medicine.

    That’s why it typically takes 5-15 years for a pharmaceutical company to get a mental health medication approved by the FDA.

    Also, your comment suggests that your experience with mental health practitioners took place some time ago.

    Perhaps the treatment options and techniques used in the field of psychiatry have changed a great deal since you first became acquainted with it.

    For example, psychiatrists certainly don’t lobotomize people anymore.

  134. @ Bridget:

    You have a point, Bridget. However, someone can become a licensed massage therapist in 6 months whereas you need to go to college for at least 9 years to become a doctor.

    Thus, I’m not sure I’d throw all activities requiring licenses in the same bucket. A doctor arguably has a lot more to lose than a massage therapist if he/she behaves unethically.

    And he/she has been evaluated by others in the field at length prior to being allowed to practice his/her profession alone.

    Thanks for your thoughts, though. This is just a friendly observation. 😉

  135. @ Christiane:

    I am well aware of all of this, Christine. The Professional License is still not a “guarantee” that the person who received it will practice according to the ethics they learned. One should still investigate the professional, their history, etc. etc.

    Pastors are supposed to be professional as well. Many of them have degrees and have promised to God to care for people. We have all seen that those promises don’t always hold true from reading the stories on this blog.

    Knowing all of this, why would I then give a person with a professional license, for anything, my blind trust? Many doctors, laywers, nurses, pharmacists, contractors, etc. have lost their licenses do to misdeeds. I wish we could take away some pastors’ titles and forbid them to be such again.

    Learning ethics and practicing ethics are two different things.

  136. @ Velour:
    Velour,
    I was in not way being critical of you.

    I am 72 and retired with some health issues.

    I have certifications, licensed, 2 undergraduate degrees, 2 Masters, a lifetime of ongoing education and experience, working for Federal, State and local agencies. In other words my professional life was in the secular world.
    I took great efforts to find colleagues, law enforcement, residential treatment centers who were more qualified in areas that I lacked and were not going to cause more problems, to refer people whose problems were beyond what I could help them with.
    My point is that in and out of the church, this is a fallen world. Too often I have seen victims run from danger only to become victims again.
    Almost as though they have a sign painted on them for predators.
    Some have found refuge in healthy caring churches, or healthy support groups, or healthy counselors, or with medications for certain conditions.
    Push on until and know that the Lord cares about the broken hearted.

  137. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    I’m confused by this comment as psychiatry, which appears to be the medical field in which you have some practical experience, is definitely based on quantifiable results as reflected by the scientific method, just like any other type of medicine.

    I would reference the changes each time a new or modified DSM comes out. And I would reference the internal arguments from some of the big names as to whether this or that change can actually be justified by the evidence or lack of it. Psych is very much in flux, and diagnosis is still very subjective.

    As to the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA, who pray tell is denying family practitioners and family practice PAs the right to prescribe mood altering meds, despite the evidence of abuses in diagnosis and the excesses of prescription meds by these people?

    And everything I have said in specifically these two paragraphs has been in the secular media right on for quite a while, while no effective steps have been taken thus far.

  138. Christiane wrote:

    I would hope that you do some looking into the preparation for professional licensed counseling before making blanket statements dismissing it,

    I did not dismiss professional counseling in any way. I really am disappointed that you made this comment about me. it is not true in any way. And I stand by what I said. I have seen awful licensed professionals and wonderful ones.

    Christiane wrote:

    A victim of abuse deserves the best care possible. Discouraging that care is not productive on a site like TWW.

    No one has discouraged that care! I advocate for using discernment when getting that care and not blindly trusting a licensed counselor or a licensed Christian counselor for that matter. Try several different counselors if you are not comfortable. Get references. Look them up. Check their license and complaints.

    The worst thing for a victim is to be revictimized with bad counseling. It happens too often.

    What you think I am saying is not at all what I am saying. I don’t even understand how you are coming to your conclusions.

  139. @ Bridget:
    I maintain that it does not help victims on a site like this to discourage them from seeking qualified professional help. The pastors you describe likely do not have professional training in counseling with licensure, but may have some para-training as they are often the first ‘responders’ when people call on them in crisis. A good pastor and a good counseling wilL KNOW when they are not qualified to help a victim if the victim needs care that is above their paygrade, and these ‘helpers’ will refer the victim to a physician who can recommend a psychiatrist.

    If I were you, I would research the kinds of training out there for the full mental-health field from agency counseling to psychiatric social worker to psychologist to psychiatrist. I don’t think you are fully knowledgeable from some of your comments here, and I think you would benefit from knowing more. I know you want to help people here, as we all do, and yes there are always a few of those in practice who are ‘bad eggs’ but they don’t last. If someone is suffering, they need all the help they deserve that is QUALIFIED help. If I seem strident about this, it is because of the degree of importance that this has for people who have been abused and are still traumatized. Encourage them to get the right kind of help, please.

  140. Christiane wrote:

    Bridget, you do understand what a professional code of ethics is, don’t you? People can lose their professional licenses IF they violate their professional code of ethics. I would hope that you do some looking into the preparation for professional licensed counseling before making blanket statements dismissing it, especially on a site where so many victims of abuse have suffered from the wrong kind of treatment and may be in great need of professional help.

    When I was in practice and still licensed for the practice of medicine I used to get the periodic report from the board of licensure which included listings of practitioners who were having their licenses suspended or else terminated for failure to practice the very things that you seem to be thinking they would practice merely because of some class they took in school. A license, mine yours or anybodies, simply means that at the time of issuance of the license the person had completed a prescribed course of study, passed the exams, had furnished recommendations, and had met certain requirements (perhaps no criminal record and no personal diagnosis of some disqualifying condition). It says nothing at all about how the person will perform once nobody is looking over their shoulder, and nothing at all about their character, and sadly nothing about whether they themselves will succumb to crippling behaviors like drugs and alcohol and boundary violations with patients in the future.

    All the actions against practitioners are against ‘licensed’ practitioners. All the malpractice suits are against licensed practitioners. All the professional breaches of ethics are done by those professionals who should know better, or else it would not be a professional breach of ethics. And there are lots and lots of board actions and malpractice suits.

  141. @ okrapod:
    You have excellent points. I would just note that diagnoses and professional standards for treating illnesses such as cancer and asthma are also seldom as scientific as they seem, even though that’s not what the public wants to hear.

  142. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    Thanks for your thoughts, though. This is just a friendly observation.

    I completely get what you are saying. But if we are going to check out our mechanic, painter, builder . . . how much more should we check out and have our discernment high for someone we are entrusting with our mental or physical health?

  143. @ okrapod:

    And may I add, the boards of licensure cannot be accused of being ignorant of what they are doing. They really would not need to be told to read up on the subject so that, well so that what, so that they would then think that once a license had been issued all would be well? They know better. And so do honest people in the various fields.

    I believe it is a huge disservice to humanity to put forth the opinion that all you need is to go to school and get licensed and then all is well, when that is demonstrably not the case.

  144. @ okrapod:
    I do think the best place to start for someone in need of help is their physician’s office, to rule out anything medical that might be causing distress,
    but then I also think that if someone has a really good doctor that the physician will KNOW who to refer their patient to for adequate psychological help. Doctors, as you know, have networks of professional acquaintances who share opinions and information about what services are beneficial, and they do get feedback from those that they have referred on for psychological help.

    I’m very serious about not discouraging folks from seeking qualified help. If there are concerns about the quality of care, let someone trusted make that referral, but I do hope people don’t walk away from the benefits of good psychological and psychiatric therapy because they have been discouraged. The stakes are too high in some cases. And the help may be critically needed.

  145. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    @Steve240: No, McCulley does not seem to see any possible relationship between shunning dating and missing the marriage boat.

    A shame that Carolyn McCulley couldn’t see this possible relationship. Maybe now vs. when she wrote her book she sees that there might be a correlation. Now people are starting to question “kissing dating goodbye” and “courtship” vs almost blindly accept it as they did when it came out.

    As I say in that blog post, as much as McCulley has invested in “kissing dating goodbye” I imagine it is quite hard for her to admit that is wasn’t all it was supposed to be and has lead to her so far kissing marriage goodbye.

  146. okrapod wrote:

    IMO, if psych were a hard science with some predictable results and objective observational realities which could be quantified and identified then the vacuum would not be there for paper back self helps and nouthetic stuff and inadequately trained medical practitioners and crazy religion.

    I think we are getting there. The psych field is improving with each generation as actual research adds up. It is a bit like the medical field which progressed from primitive beginnings, but it’s much harder to use the scientific method when it comes to peoples’ psychs.

    My dad was a clinical psych and yes, all the stereotypes and caveats have a good basis in reality. I could tell you some stories; some comical, some tragic. I think we currently see more people going into the psych fields because they have the skills, talents and desire to help other people sort out their lives as opposed to going into it attempting to sort out their own issues, but it is well known that many do/have done this and never accomplish the sorting out.

    That said, there are at least rules, oversight, continuing research and education and recourse for the client. There are licensing guidelines that exclude the worst cases and hopefully those are improving. Practitioners today have much more research to draw on than those of yesterday did.

    Well, OT, but there’s my 2cents. I do think a person is much better off with a licensed counselor than a religious wannabe. And if they find the person is not helping them, move on to someone else. All are not equally gifted or motivated. But then that’s true of doctors as well.

  147. @ Bridget:
    I understand and always appreciate your thoughtful comments.

    I hit the jackpot right away with my world-class psychiatrist, yet think that most people need to shop around for the right doctor for them.

  148. refugee wrote:

    Were SGM churches among those that discouraged people from going on the internet?

    I was not a member of an SGM church, so I can’t speak to that specifically, but I know that the reformed evangelical community in general is very resistant to external critique, even when carefully backed by documentation. Consider Al Mohler’s tasteless joke at T4G about “what he found when Googling Mahaney”

  149. Christiane wrote:

    I don’t think you are fully knowledgeable from some of your comments here, and I think you would benefit from knowing more. I know you want to help people here, as we all do, and yes there are always a few of those in practice who are ‘bad eggs’ but they don’t last.

    Well, thanks Christine. That is one of the rudest things someone has said to me on this blog. I am not the only commenter in this discussion that is concerned about revictimization or checking into the doctors you are seeing. I have also never claimed to have vast knowledge about anything. But I do seem to be the only person you make such comments to.

    May I ask a few questions? Do you have children who have been abused? Were you in the dark about it for years not knowing what was going on? Have you had to find “licensed” psychiatrists and/or psychologists? Have you dealt with suicide attempts? Self harming? Medication that wasn’t working? Alcoholism as self medication in those you care for? I have been involved with this for years, and am still dealing with it, so “maybe” I know some small bit about it.

    I really am tired of your condescending communication toward me. This is not the first time. I don’t understand where it is coming from or why you think this of me. Maybe it is because I don’t always agree with people and I say something? I don’t know that this is a reason to be told that I am uninformed or need schooling in some area. I can tell you that I feel like you have marked me for some reason.

    I, obviously, don’t believe in thought conformity, which is something we often talk about on this blog. But maybe it is just talk, and I am required to conform . . . don’t know, don’t get it.

  150. @ okrapod:
    I wholeheartedly agree with your comments on this subject.
    Oh that there was a pill fix mental or cancer.
    When a drug has a disclaimer such as do not prescribe to adolescents, suicidal, or homicidal patients or medications such as risperdahl which were prescribed to children and alzheimer patients with no medical tests or studies to justify doing so.
    Not all patients have all the side effects but they need to be monitored so that reactions can be evaluated and medications reduced or discontinued should e.g. hallucinations or suicidal thought suddenly begin.
    There is not pill to fix if your child is being sexually abused or if your husband is getting drunk and beating you up.

  151. @ siteseer:

    Yes. That is how I see it. I think the best place to start is to get a recommendation from someone in a position to know, but I have found that the MD/FP is usually correct about which orthopedist or neurologist or such but has no ideas really about psych people. it is really hard to go out with no good idea to start with and end up happy, happy, happy. I do think that one must go into any situation with one finger on the 911 button and one finger on the delete button and be ready to call it quits and look elsewhere when it is not working.

    And in my family somebody just recently pulled the plug on one endocrinologist and went elsewhere, with promising results. That just has to be done from time to time.

  152. refugee wrote:

    Were SGM churches among those that discouraged people from going on the internet? Sort of the idea that “Google” is next to “gossip” in their dictionary.

    Yes.

    Below is from Brent Detwiler’s blog.

    Mickey Connolly
    Excommunication Meeting
    November 13, 2011

    “So what I am asking you to do as a church is to avoid him as long as he engages in this behavior: gossip, slander, scoffing, mocking…. Having nothing more to do with him, or avoiding him, would include not discussing these things with him personally, reading any of his materials on blogs or Facebook. If that means you have to defriend him to avoid the temptation, do that, or following the story on anti-Sovereign Grace Ministries blogs…. So I want to be clear! Not discussing this with him personally. Not reading any of his materials on blogs or Facebook or following the story on the anti-Sovereign Grace Ministries blogs…. If you can’t trust your pastors, you need to leave. You need to go…. If you cannot trust your pastors, if you cannot obey your pastors and what we are asking you to do biblically then you need to find another church because we cannot function without your trust. You can’t follow pastors you don’t trust. You can’t honor pastors that you are willing to have slandered. And that you’re willing to go and seek out slander about. You can’t do that.”

    Brent Detwiler
    Trust and Obey for There’s No Other Way to Possibly Stay at CrossWay!
    November 14, 2011

    “In other words, if you don’t cut off your relationship with me, if you continue to read my blog, if you don’t defriend me on Facebook and stop reading my comments, you MUST leave CrossWay and find another church. There is absolutely no alternative. So if you stay, you must stick you head in the sand and unconditionally trust, obey and honor the pastors as though they were Jesus.”

    http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/ten-common-cult-like-characteristics-evident-in-mickey-conno.html

  153. I am not against medications being prescribed by with the experience, knowledge, after a thorough evaluation and the willingness to follow up the patient. I would not co sign a medication giving after a 5 minute evaluation, willy nilly shotgun approach, with no counseling or serious follow up

  154. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    I hit the jackpot right away with my world-class psychiatrist, yet think that most people need to shop around for the right doctor for them.

    Glad you found good healthcare right away. That is always good. I know many who struggle, can’t afford it, have no one helping them, etc. It is not always easy. I can see why many people turn to their pastor or religious counselors. Unfortunately, it is not usually a good option.

  155. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    I would also point out there’s a big difference between a psychiatrist and a psychologist.

    Social Workers can also be licensed to do therapy, just as an add on. And psychiatrists do sometimes do therapy sometimes as well. NP’s/PA’s can also be prescribers. So there are a number of different options in the field, but I do agree with others as well that you should obviously research the people you are going to and feel free to fire your therapist if they aren’t a good fit.

  156. refugee wrote:

    servants’ pedestal

    I like this wording! This is also sometimes seen in the ‘women have to be the holders of purity because men are all horn dogs who can’t be bothered’ way of thinking. How bout we all be responsible for ourselves?

    I will say also, you don’t get any points for ‘being a servant’ if you are not consciously choosing that role, to me. The whole point is to do something for others out of love, not to be told to do something because you are in the ‘servant’ role!! It’s a gross distortion for men in these types of churches to do that, especially when they do it for their own benefit.

  157. okrapod wrote:

    IMO, if psych were a hard science with some predictable results and objective observational realities which could be quantified and identified then the vacuum would not be there for paper back self helps and nouthetic stuff and inadequately trained medical practitioners and crazy religion. But since it is not

    I think it’s a mix, though, of hard science and soft. We can look at brain scans and are learning more and more every day…but the brain is complicated. (and speaking of things we are constantly learning more about, the gut is complicated too. Who knew?)

    Anyway, PEOPLE are complicated. You cannot change everyone’s life in a few therapy sessions. So yes, some people will always be searching. And some will always be hurting. But there are evidence based treatments that and you can look at observable increases in depression scores, ptsd tests, etc…and see the results of medication and psychotherapy. It doesn’t help people to dismiss them utterly, because some have had bad experiences. That is true of any medication, why wouldn’t it be true of something even more complicated?

  158. @ Lea:
    I agree. Sometimes I leave out technical details because I don’t want to write a super long comment.

    🙂

    Yes, psychiatrists are allowed to do therapy but certainly don’t have to provide that service if it isn’t wanted.

    My point being that there are treatment options for people who are distrustful of modern psychology, something that many authoritarian Pastors try to deny.

  159. @ Bridget:
    Yes, I’m very blessed to have a family that could afford to get me first rate medical care.

    And to be living in an area, Washington D.C., with great mental health resources.

    I do think that many Pastors can serve as good counselors regarding many issues. However, they can not be used as a substitute for doctors.

  160. okrapod wrote:

    When I was in practice and still licensed for the practice of medicine I used to get the periodic report from the board of licensure which included listings of practitioners who were having their licenses suspended or else terminated for failure to practice the very things that you seem to be thinking they would practice merely because of some class they took in school.

    This is an excellent point and I might mention that most licensed professionals you can look up online and see if they have any flags on their license.

  161. I have returned from the House of Driscoll.

    There were 100 cars at the 9 am service.
    There were 120 cars at the 10:45 am service.

    I had my GoPro with me, with the special strap so I could wear it on my left hand. It came in handy today.

    The volunteer security guy from last week again brought his kids out to wave at the far parking lot and I objected strenuously and set off down the sidewalk. I shouted at them, “Do not bring kids into an adult argument!” several times. I got a talking-to from the Scottsdale cop about “targeting” them, along with the possibility of “disorderly conduct,” a most slippery charge that cops often use to deal with protesters who are getting on their nerves. So the attendees of “The Trinity Church” got a special reading from “Real Marriage” and also got to hear me pontificate on various problems with Mark Driscoll. I was using a paper megaphone, which one attendee tried to take from me. *shrug* Ultimately, my time to leave came around, and I left to get some breakfast. That was just the first service.

    For the second service, I noticed they were stringing ‘wire’ over the doors. I couldn’t figure out what that was about, nor could I figure out where the music was coming from. Turns out they’d hooked up a couple of speakers to the sides of the doors to the church and were playing music. Which is funny, because until the moment I realized (never said I was completely clueful) they were doing this to drown me out, I was over at the west parking lot curb cut, where I normally stand and wasn’t saying a thing. At that point, I was like, “oh, fergit it” and went over and proceeded to tell attendees “Mark Driscoll abandoned Seattle, he will abandon Scottsdale” and other truthful facts about Mark and his antics. I got it all on video but I’m not sure I want to share, because, to be blunt, I look like I am ranting. But…and this is key…I didn’t cuss the whole time. Because I had a plan and I knew what I was going to do.

  162. Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    I got a talking-to from the Scottsdale cop about “targeting” them, along with the possibility of “disorderly conduct,” a most slippery charge that cops often use to deal with protesters who are getting on their nerves.

    You are a trooper, Mirele. Thanks agree with you that bringing children out is just wrong. They are “using” their children for their benefits.

    What is with the cop? Is he a member of the church? Is he acting in an official capacity for his church? That seems wrong as well.

    Driscoll is a sissy, since he sends parishioners and children out to the curb but won’t set foot out there himself.

  163. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The Second Test between Bangladesh and England resumes tomorrow with Bangladesh on 153-3 in their second innings, a lead of 128.

    I just wanted to say, I heard about this on the BBC World News at the top of the hour this morning. The news story mentioned that they took a break for tea and also that there was a concern that the match would come off, due to some violence in Bangladesh. That was a weird confluence.

  164. Bridget wrote:

    What is with the cop? Is he a member of the church? Is he acting in an official capacity for his church? That seems wrong as well.

    Driscoll is a sissy, since he sends parishioners and children out to the curb but won’t set foot out there himself.

    The cop is being paid for by the “church”. I don’t want to make problems for him. But in addition to the cop, they have a number of men who are “volunteer” security, including the guy with the kids.

    And yes, Driscoll is a sissy. I’ve been out there for months and I’ve never seen his face. He’s the David Miscavige of the trendy evangelical set.

  165. Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    The volunteer security guy from last week again brought his kids

    How very masculine of him – using his children as a shield.
    If he has daughter’s, do they know that they will grow up to be mere “penis homes”?

  166. Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    . Turns out they’d hooked up a couple of speakers to the sides of the doors to the church and were playing music. Which is funny, because until the moment I realized (never said I was completely clueful) they were doing this to drown me out, I was over at the west parking lot curb cut, where I normally stand and wasn’t saying a thing.

    Oh my word. All if it is a good sign. The vulgarian is concerned. I can just imagine the private convos on you and checking TWW stats to get a handle on you and this blog as a threat to growth. Based on your counts, It is really not growing fast enough to be profitable enough for him or Morris.

  167. @ Bridget:
    I stand by my belief that it is not helpful on a blog like TWW to discourage anyone who has been through the trauma of abuse from seeking professional help.

    If nothing more, at least encourage people who are suffering to tell their physicians about their trouble, then hopefully the physicians can make an appropriate plan to get them some help if that physician sees the need.

    You are personally ‘insulted’? I wouldn’t be. A lot of people distrust and discount the work of mental health professionals. I understand that. I just thought you might benefit from knowing more about how they study, train and prepare for their work. I still think that is true.

    My cousin’s daughter Kim is a child psychiatrist in the northeastern USA. She first became a medical doctor and then studied further to become a psychiatrist. She specializes in working with children and with their families. I know she is an honorable person who is devoted to her profession. Fourteen years of preparation after prep school. . . . that is some serious training, yes.

  168. @ Bridget:
    Bridget, just another view relating to where you are coming from. I was hired to facilitate strategic planning with a statewide Assoc of psy practitioners which included mostly PhD’s in the mix. I usually start with an environmental scan of the organization which is done anonymously then we discuss the outcomes. It is very involved.
    .
    Oh my word. These people were blatantly vicious to one another. Publicly! They could not wait to share their insults publicly. The insults were a bit amusing because they were shop talk. So and so is “grandiose”. They were diagnosing one another! And so on.

    I had never been with such an arrogant and contentious group in my career and I had worked with lots of unions who can be quite contentious with each other.

    Education is no guarantee in that world. Knowlege does not necessarily transfer to practice as we know from Christianity.

    I know people who have lodged serious complaints (mainly concerning family court where these folks milk people dry) that go no where. It really depends on the state oversight people. Get a judge to vouch and you are home free.

    I spent a year interviewing therapists for EMDR because I think it is a better option for people with abuse trauma. The therapist was a nutcase but the EMDR takes the therapist more out of the practical equation. Thankfully.

  169. @everyone who has commented on this post so far:

    Things are getting a little contentious ya’ll and perhaps that’s none of my business. Believe me, I’m a little scared to get in the ring. 😉

    However, I do want to say that I think everyone who has commented on this blog post, so far, has the best interests of people who suffer from mental illness and/or the simple trauma of sexual abuse, at heart.

    I’m very happy about that and think it is something to celebrate. Thanks!

  170. Christiane wrote:

    I stand by my belief that it is not helpful on a blog like TWW to discourage anyone who has been through the trauma of abuse from seeking professional help.

    And I’ll say it again. I did not discourage anyone from getting professional help, nor did anyone else on this blog that I can see. Please stop insinuating with your comments that I have advised this.

  171. Lydia wrote:

    Oh my word. These people were blatantly vicious to one another. Publicly! They could not wait to share their insults publicly. The insults were a bit amusing because they were shop talk. So and so is “grandiose”. They were diagnosing one another! And so on.

    ha ha! I can totally picture this…

  172. Christiane wrote:

    You are personally ‘insulted’? I wouldn’t be. A lot of people distrust and discount the work of mental health professionals. I understand that. I just thought you might benefit from knowing more about how they study, train and prepare for their work. I still think that is true.

    I didn’t say I was insulted. This is what I said.

    Bridget wrote:

    Well, thanks Christine. That is one of the rudest things someone has said to me on this blog. I am not the only commenter in this discussion that is concerned about revictimization or checking into the doctors you are seeing. I have also never claimed to have vast knowledge about anything. But I do seem to be the only person you make such comments to.
    May I ask a few questions? Do you have children who have been abused? Were you in the dark about it for years not knowing what was going on? Have you had to find “licensed” psychiatrists and/or psychologists? Have you dealt with suicide attempts? Self harming? Medication that wasn’t working? Alcoholism as self medication in those you care for? I have been involved with this for years, and am still dealing with it, so “maybe” I know some small bit about it.
    I really am tired of your condescending communication toward me. This is not the first time. I don’t understand where it is coming from or why you think this of me. Maybe it is because I don’t always agree with people and I say something? I don’t know that this is a reason to be told that I am uninformed or need schooling in some area. I can tell you that I feel like you have marked me for some reason.
    I, obviously, don’t believe in thought conformity, which is something we often talk about on this blog. But maybe it is just talk, and I am required to conform . . . don’t know, don’t get it.

  173. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    refugee wrote:

    Were SGM churches among those that discouraged people from going on the internet? Sort of the idea that “Google” is next to “gossip” in their dictionary.

    Yes.

    Below is from Brent Detwiler’s blog.

    Wow, Todd, talk about mind control, that is sick!

  174. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    However, I do want to say that I think everyone who has commented on this blog post, so far, has the best interests of people who suffer from mental illness and/or the simple trauma of sexual abuse, at heart.
    I’m very happy about that and think it is something to celebrate. Thanks!

    I agree! I think everyone has the victims best interest at heart.

  175. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    I’m bipolar and tend to side with people who have a high opinion of both modern psychology and modern psychiatry, although I, too, am aware that there are many bad psychologists and bad psychiatrists out there.
    There are also lots of awful pastors, lawyers, and accountants running around but that’s not a good reason to disparage or dismiss all the people who work in those professions, in my view. I’m not saying that’s what anyone commenting on this blog is doing, yet the anti-psychology/psychiatry mentality in question is very common in authoritarian conservative Churches, in my experience.

    Awesome comment, Janna.

    Thank you so much for your transparency, sharing how getting proper medical care for your mental health condition has transformed your life, the wonderful Episcopal priest who supported you and medical care/psychiatry/medication, and the problems in the conservative church with it all. I’m in 100% agreement.

    Someone here on Wartburg who I became friends with offline was very transparent about her own journey to be treated for depression and anxiety. Because of her support, I went in for an evaluation.

    I had a very rough time after my excommunication and shunning from an abusive church, which was unhealthy anyway and I should have left. But it was a brutal experience what those pastors/elders did to me.

    The psychiatrist who gave me a whole battery of tests said I ranked at nearly the highest level for depression (1 step beneath it by a few points). Ditto for anxiety. I was put on medication and weekly therapy. My life has vastly improved. And he was glad I was out of an abusive church, that also excommunicated a godly doctor in his 70’s.

    My psychiatrist has been practicing for more than 40 years and his father was a doctor. He told me that his dad made practicing medicine really attractive.

    While at medical school, my psychiatrist said that he was further inspired to help people by Dr. Jerome D. Frank’s book Persuasion and Healing [professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine].

  176. Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    The cop is being paid for by the “church”. I don’t want to make problems for him.

    I don’t want to make trouble for him or you. I am just confused about a cop being hired to be a cop when he is off duty. Is he acting in his official capacity as an on duty cop or is he a cop acting as a private security guard?

    Maybe someone who knows about these things can explain.

  177. okrapod wrote:

    if psych were a hard science with some predictable results and objective observational realities

    Science is coming a long way. I recently got a comment in my Facebook feed that contained MRI photos of normal brains compared to those with ADHD, Bipolar, Depression, and PTSD. There are very serious differences and it was amazing to see the pictures to prove it.

    I know that all professions have had their problems, that we’re evolving, but I saw so much damage done by Nouthetic Counseling (I believe it’s the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine by quacks) at my ex-church. I had people in real crisis situations confide in me, because they couldn’t in the pastors/elders, that they needed professional help from licensed professionals.

    And I secretly told them to get it, be put on medication, etc.

  178. bc wrote:

    Some have found refuge in healthy caring churches, or healthy support groups, or healthy counselors, or with medications for certain conditions.
    Push on until and know that the Lord cares about the broken hearted

    Thank you for answering my question.

    By the way, I know that you were not being critical of me. I just wanted to know what you thought further about professional counseling. A lot has happened, as you know, in the sixty years since Kinsey has died. Much research. Changes in therapies. Women and men in the field. Advances in treatment and medications. We have a long ways to go.

    I saw the damage done by the quackery known as Nouthetic Counseling. I think the NC “counselors” are so dangerous that they should be arrested, prosecuted, and convicted for the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine. They are arrogant and in over their heads and rendering medical opinions that they have not business doing.

  179. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    the best interests of people who suffer from mental illness and/or the simple trauma of sexual abuse, at heart.

    I think this is true even through the drama! Best.

  180. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    However, I do want to say that I think everyone who has commented on this blog post, so far, has the best interests of people who suffer from mental illness and/or the simple trauma of sexual abuse, at heart.

    You bet. That is why one should go to great lengths to vet them which can be a grueling process. Those Who are highly recommended are usually not taking patients.

    I highly recommend that anyone who might be looking at family court in the near future go ahead and get one or the judge might choose one for you and your kids from his/her list. We need fewer Tony Jones type outcomes.

  181. @ Bridget:
    Yes they are cops as church security here. Many work high school sports games, too. They like the traffic duty at megas dealing with relatively quiet church goers. They are low paid and appreciate the extra work.

  182. Christiane wrote:

    I stand by my belief that it is not helpful on a blog like TWW to discourage anyone who has been through the trauma of abuse from seeking professional help.
    If nothing more, at least encourage people who are suffering to tell their physicians about their trouble, then hopefully the physicians can make an appropriate plan to get them some help if that physician sees the need.

    I am in agreement with this plan of action.

    Yes, people — as some folks have commented — need to check their referrals, make sure they are competent and ethical, and fire them if they’re not.

    But it can be life-saving and transforming to get help. I saw so many Christians and their children needlessly suffer at my ex-church (NeoCalvinist/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite/Nouthetic Counseling which is untrained people throwing scripture verses at things they have no knowledge of) by this whole preposterous notion of avoiding licensed care and treatment for serious problems.

  183. Bridget wrote:

    Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
    The cop is being paid for by the “church”. I don’t want to make problems for him.
    I don’t want to make trouble for him or you. I am just confused about a cop being hired to be a cop when he is off duty. Is he acting in his official capacity as an on duty cop or is he a cop acting as a private security guard?
    Maybe someone who knows about these things can explain.

    I’ll recap what Mirele posted to me weeks ago about this when I asked. The off-duty cop is no problem and is a nice guy. The police department does permit their police officers to be hired in their off-duty time and is not a violation of policy or ethics.

  184. Lydia wrote:

    Oh my word. All if it is a good sign. The vulgarian is concerned. I can just imagine the private convos on you and checking TWW stats to get a handle on you and this blog as a threat to growth. Based on your counts, It is really not growing fast enough to be profitable enough for him or Morris.

    He’s held steady for the last two months (that is, since two weeks after his opening Sunday). His high water mark was 236 cars on September 25, and his low water mark, so far, was last Sunday, October 24, with only 216 cars. He’s been between those two numbers for the last 10 weeks (excepting the one Sunday I had a headache).

    He said he’d have 1,000 people at his church with two services. He’s running an average of 225 cars. If I give him Phoenix Open car numbers (that is, the number of occupants per each car which enters the Phoenix Open golf tournament in January, which is 2.3 persons), he’s got 518 persons across two services. And many of those are children. This is not a success by any stretch of the imagination. The Baptist church near me gets more people.

  185. @ Dee Holmes (fka mirele):
    Mirele, it sounds like your good work is being effective at getting the word out about Driscoll. Each person who wonders to themselves why is this lady protesting, and then goes home and gets on the internet and does their homework may be spared a world of trouble. Please stay safe. I hope you are considering your well-being, as some of those hired security folk can be a little heavy handed. God keep you safe, dear.

  186. Bridget wrote:

    Do you have children who have been abused? Were you in the dark about it for years not knowing what was going on? Have you had to find “licensed” psychiatrists and/or psychologists? Have you dealt with suicide attempts? Self harming? Medication that wasn’t working? Alcoholism as self medication in those you care for? I have been involved with this for years, and am still dealing with it, so “maybe” I know some small bit about it.

    Bridget,

    I am sorry to hear this. I will be praying for you and your children.

    Hugs,

    Velour in California

  187. Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    And yes, Driscoll is a sissy. I’ve been out there for months and I’ve never seen his face. He’s the David Miscavige of the trendy evangelical set.

    Just remember what David Miscavage does to his enemies, real or imagined.

  188. Bridget wrote:

    Driscoll is a sissy, since he sends parishioners and children out to the curb but won’t set foot out there himself.

    Too important to The Cause to Risk, like Calvin when the plague hit Geneva>

  189. Max wrote:

    mot wrote:

    Do these people ever consider they will have to give an account to God someday?

    When you are a member of the “predestined elect” and have come into the world for such a time as this (to “reform” the rest of us), you view God’s judgment differently I guess.

    Because they KNOW they are God’s Speshul Pets.

    On J-day, all they need to do is wave their Predestined Elect Card (signed by God before the foundation of the world) and God has to show them to their Reserved expensive seats.

  190. @ Lydia:
    @ Velour:

    Thanks for the information, Lydia and Velour.

    I guess I am just confused about what capacity they are working in when on this type of duty. Are they in police uniform? Are they in security guard uniform? Can they switch from security guard to police officer to deal with a situation? The reason I ask is because it was my understanding that security guards do not have the same authority as police officers. I don’t begrudge them extra income, or a second job in any way. Just confused as to what a policeman/security guard can do versus a person who is just a security guard. And this is off topic and does not need to be continued here. 🙂

  191. @ Bridget:

    An off-duty law enforcement officer still has legal authority to make arrests, etc.
    Mirele will have to answer your other questions, perhaps on the Open Discussion thread,
    as this is happening in her state (Arizona) and in her city. And she is ‘in the know’.

  192. @ Bridget:
    They wore police uniforms and drove police cars. The church has to have permission from the city for traffic to be directed. They worked outside the church building on city roads.

    They were not in the building providing security. Although there are plain clothes security people at most megas for each service. Most pew sitters have no clue. Don’t get me started on that. Sigh.

  193. @ Velour:

    Thank you, Velour. I have been commenting here for many years but have not shared much detail about my situation. My children do need prayer. They are young adults now so I have no legal authority in their lives to insist they get help where I see they need it. I can pray, keep a healthy relationship with them, and hope they listen to counsel.

  194. Blunderwhelmed. What the Gospel Glitterati have done to themselves due to their unwavering support of Driscoll, Mahaney, MacDonald, and Chandler. Apologies to the ones I’ve overlooked.

  195. @ Velour:
    My understanding is that what Velour is saying is true but there are also many “if’s, but’s, and perhap’s” given the conflicts-of-interest that off-duty cops can appear to face when working privately.

    In my view, there’s no expectation of privacy while talking to someone standing on a sidewalk, outside a Church, that is open to the public. Therefore, I would suggest that you consider recording, on your phone, any dialogue/commentary about your public advocacy work outside Driscoll’s Church, Mirele.

    Thanks for all you do!

  196. Thanks all for the great responses to my comments. I’d love to reply now, yet am studying intensely for a computer certification test, so may need to limit my screen time for a day or two.

    Catch you guys soon!

  197. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Predestined Elect Card (signed by God before the foundation of the world)

    I wonder if Calvinists ever sit down and seriously think about their religion and how off-track their belief system is compared to the whole of Scripture?

  198. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    Velour is saying is true but there are also many “if’s, but’s, and perhap’s” given the conflicts-of-interest that off-duty cops can appear to face when working privately.
    In my view, there’s no expectation of privacy while talking to someone standing on a sidewalk, outside a Church, that is open to the public. Therefore, I would suggest that you consider recording, on your phone, any dialogue/commentary about your public advocacy work outside Driscoll’s Church, Mirele.
    Thanks for all you do!

    I previously called the police department in that city, where Driscoll’s church is, and I spoke to a police officer about their policy. He confirmed that many of their police officers were hired in their off-duty time and that it was fine by the department.

    Mirele has had no problems with the off-duty police officer and she’s previously posted about him. He’s professional at House of Driscoll.

    Mirele does have the right, as do others, under the First Amendment to protest on a public sidewalk. The only issue that happened once before was a man that joined her to protest and he parked in the church parking lot, which is private property.

  199. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    Thanks all for the great responses to my comments. I’d love to reply now, yet am studying intensely for a computer certification test, so may need to limit my screen time for a day or two.
    Catch you guys soon!

    Praying for you, Janna! Good luck with your exam.

  200. @ Deb:

    Deb, Carolyn McCulley is not in that video praising CJ. She doesn’t sing or dance in public. I believe I could name everyone performing in that skit.

    I was disappointed by this post in that it was all guilty by association instead of investigating what Carolyn actually teaches on her own merits. Also, as many of us SGM survivors can attest, what someone said or wrote years ago about following CJ does not necessarily hold today. I’m glad some readers like Janna took the time to explore Carolyn’s public ministry, though I don’t think their comments paint a complete picture. I’ve known Carolyn for over 15 years, but I won’t claim to be in a position to judge the value of her writing and speaking to women. I’m happy to leave it to women to weigh in on that.

  201. Velour wrote:

    Mirele does have the right, as do others, under the First Amendment to protest on a public sidewalk. The only issue that happened once before was a man that joined her to protest and he parked in the church parking lot, which is private property.

    My only concern is the officer mentioned the “disorderly conduct” charge. That is a very slippery charge, often used against protesters, and often without justification. I’m going to have to watch my step, but I’m happy I got a GoPro camera and a strap to wear it on the back of my hand. Now I just have to figure out how to point it so I get halfway decent video. Nobody wants to watch my shadow.

  202. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Mirele does have the right, as do others, under the First Amendment to protest on a public sidewalk. The only issue that happened once before was a man that joined her to protest and he parked in the church parking lot, which is private property.
    My only concern is the officer mentioned the “disorderly conduct” charge. That is a very slippery charge, often used against protesters, and often without justification. I’m going to have to watch my step, but I’m happy I got a GoPro camera and a strap to wear it on the back of my hand. Now I just have to figure out how to point it so I get halfway decent video. Nobody wants to watch my shadow.

    That’s not ok that he threatened you. You’ve done nothing wrong. I’m glad you have the GoPro.

  203. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    My only concern is the officer mentioned the “disorderly conduct” charge. That is a very slippery charge, often used against protesters, and often without justification. I’m going to have to watch my step, but I’m happy I got a GoPro camera and a strap to wear it on the back of my hand.

    That concerns me on your behalf! Be careful. I don’t trust Driscoll.

  204. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    That my friends is a cult. “Follow your pastor as he follows Christ?” THAT is the most UNBIBLICAL thing I have EVER read. Jesus did not say pick up your cross and follow, Paul, Peter, James or John as they follow me. Jesus said, follow ME!!!
    People, put down the DANG books and pick up THE BOOK!!!!

    Excommunication is a real, real thing and is alive and well in 2016 Baptist churches. Just last week, someone who use to be a very, very close friend (before FBCRM/CCC split) saw my husband and me standing together, and I literally watched her trying to decide if she was gonna come over and speak but in the end she turned, and walked in the other direction. I have never done one thing personally to her or her husband, but I have and did speak truth about the events that went down at FBCRM. I was labeled” divisive”, a “slanderer”- a “liar”- all for telling the TRUTH.

    I can honestly say all these months later, I will never, ever blindly trust another pastor or any leadership in a church just bc they have the title, “pastor”, ” preacher”, ”deacon” etc. I do however, completely trust God and the finished work of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit who lives in me.

  205. @ David MacKenzie:
    I’ll take you at your word regarding the skit since I have no clue who the participants were. One of the women resembled Carolyn McCulley to me. 

    Since Carolyn's first book Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye? was published in 2004 (the same year as the skit)  and her senior pastor (C.J. Mahaney) gave a glowing endorsement on the back cover (https://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product_slideshow?sku=45791&actual_sku=45791&slide=98), I figured she would have wanted to demonstrate her tremendous appreciation for him at this church event since he obviously had a big hand in launching her career.  Sorry for the mistaken identity.

    It is my contention that Carolyn McCulley’s theology was heavily influenced by her former pastor. C.J. has certainly opened doors for her.

    Case in point – C.J. Mahaney spoke at every single Resolved Conference from 2005 to 2012. Only one woman was invited to speak during that entire time, and guess who it was? Carolyn McCulley (who came to address the women).

    Finally, thanks for the blog post suggestion.  I do believe I'll take a closer look at Carolyn McCulley and what she is teaching women.

  206. @ The Excommunicated:
    BRAVO! You have hit the nail on the head regarding the serious problems with the Neo-Cal movement.

    What a tragedy that there is now rift among brothers and sisters in Christ in your community. I see nothing Christ-like about what Dennis Darville did to split your church – First Baptist Church of Rocky Mount.

    We wrote a series on this. Here is the first installment if anyone is interested.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/06/17/sebts-expert-on-the-calling-of-god-and-the-pastoral-search-process-and-the-rest-of-the-story/

  207. @ David MacKenzie:
    Hi David:

    Carolyn McCulley should speak for herself instead of hiding behind you. I say this because I’ve noticed on SGM Survivors that you frequently seem to be posting messages for people who don’t have the courage to post on blogs themselves.

    If women you know, like Carolyn McCulley and Charlotte Ennis (who gave slanderous testimony about SGM sexual abuse victims at a Maryland State Senate hearing to extend the state of limitations for filing a lawsuit about sexual abuse), don’t like what’s being said about their public work publicly, then let them say so.

    “I’ve known Carolyn for over 15 years, but I won’t claim to be in a position to judge the value of her writing and speaking to women. I’m happy to leave it to women to weigh in on that.”

    That’s certainly a condescending and demeaning statement, David. I guess men don’t need to concern themselves with what women say to other women because that’s not as important as what men say to other men. Correct?

    As for looking at Carolyn McCulley’s work in its entirety, I’m not interested in buying her books or attending her conferences given the incontrovertible evidence that she’s throwing sexual abuse victims under the bus. She’s certainly not making any money off me.

    You seem like a decent person, David. Why are you constantly shilling for a bunch of pedophilia-enablers at a dying disreputably “Church?”

  208. David MacKenzie wrote:

    Deb, Carolyn McCulley is not in that video praising CJ. She doesn’t sing or dance in public. I believe I could name everyone performing in that skit.

    Fair enough. Could you do us all a favor and name the people performing in that skit?

  209. @ David MacKenzie:
    I’ve actually read many of Carolyn McCulley’s blog posts and listened to interviews she’s participated in.

    Thus, I am familiar with her work, David. By contrast, I suspect that your knowledge of her schtick is very superficial because she just addresses women’s issues that you imply you’re not very interested in.

  210. @ Velour:
    Thanks, I guess there’s no rest for the weary if CLC is going to send its people over here now that SGM Survivors is defunct.

    Carolyn McCulley, please have the guts to post here yourself, honey. Sending surrogates is just going to irritate people like me who have wanted to write about your hypocrisy for some time.

    😉

  211. mot wrote:

    Do these people ever consider they will have to give an account to God someday?

    One thing that always surprises is me how some of these leaders like to teach and impose one passage of scripture but seem (by their actions) to forget that they will have to one day give an account.

    I elaborated on it a while ago as a guest blogger here:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/07/20/mahaneys-chicanery-regarding-calvin/

    They teach things like:

    – Obey your leaders and submit to them but then forget that in the same passage it says that they will give an account. (Hebrews 13:17)

    – Teach that you need to submit to your elders but forget where it says to clothe yourselves in humility towards one another.

    I have said this before but take for example the documents coming out about SGM showing a number of private emails including Mahaney’s blackmail and the leaders’ conspiring to cover this up. Do these leaders not think that God has all of these emails and a whole lot more? (I Cor 4:5).

    What will be their response when they have to give an account for conspiring to cover up C.J. Mahaney’s blackmailing? What about allowing Mahaney to continue as a leader when he was clearly disqualified?

  212. Velour wrote:

    I previously called the police department in that city, where Driscoll’s church is, and I spoke to a police officer about their policy. He confirmed that many of their police officers were hired in their off-duty time and that it was fine by the department.

    Mirele has had no problems with the off-duty police officer and she’s previously posted about him. He’s professional at House of Driscoll.

    But there HAVE been conflict-of-interest cases in the past where the off-duty cop working church security doubled as Pastor’s Personal Enforcer. Usually this was a cop who was also a member of the church and more loyal to Pastor than anyone else. And both Bob Grenier and Tony Jones became police chaplains to put themselves on the “cop” side of the Code of Blue — cop always sides with cop against not-cop.

  213. True, a victim should get the best care possible. What I understood from the discussion is not that psychotherapy and licensed counseling are to be avoided, just that they involve the same fallible creatures as nouthetic counseling. (Same practitioners — that is to say, people; different training.)

    There is a guy out there who ought to have his license taken away. (I’m sure there’s more than one but I know personally of one.) His victim won’t report humor testify against him because they think it less traumatizing to let it go and walk away and never seek badly needed help from anyone else, than to risk being re-traumatized by reporting him and then having to go through the process that follows. It breaks my heart. This person was doing better, was making progress, was dealing with the past and on meds that were stabilizing a psycho-neuro ( is that the right word?) condition, and now they are back to dealing with serious issues on their own.

    I wish I could do something but all I can do is listen.

    Therapy is doing incredible good for others I know. So the message is not “avoid psychology and psychotherapy, but more caveat emptor. I think that’s the right phrase.

    Counseling and drugs is big business. Beaucoup bucks. Though it is helping people I know, it’s still a good idea to keep your eyes open.@ Christiane:

  214. The Excommunicated wrote:

    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    That my friends is a cult.

    Agreed.

    Brent Detwiler had this to say about Mickey Connolly:

    “Mickey Connolly should be tried by the church he leads for deceitfully using Scripture and commentaries in justifying his use of Titus 3:10-11 and Romans 1:17-18 to “mark” me and have the church “shun” me. For a pastor/teacher, there could hardly be a more serious breach of trust.

    Mickey misled the church and it was intentional. I am not being “judgmental.” I am judging, that is, I am making a determination based upon clear evidence. Being judgmental and judging (coming to a conclusion) are not the same thing.”

    I agree with Brent. You do not have to read much of Detwiler’s material to realize Mickey Connolly has seriously abused his leadership position in Sovereign Grace Churches.

    I did some checking and Connolly has been one of the speakers at every Sovereign Grace Pastor’s Conference that I could find a record of. His is not a gifted speaker so I can only assume his speaking assignments are a reward for his unquestioning loyalty to Mahaney.

    I suggest his continuing highly visible role (along with Mahaney’s) in the Sovereign Grace Churches denomination demonstrate an ongoing sickness, if not amongst the whole denomination, at least amongst the leadership. And if the head is sick, the whole body is sick.

  215. Refugee wrote:

    This person was doing better, was making progress, was dealing with the past and on meds that were stabilizing a psycho-neuro ( is that the right word?) condition, and now they are back to dealing with serious issues on their own.

    I’m sorry to hear about this. I can understand the decisions the person has made. It makes all the sense in the world when you have been revictimized, or even victimized once. Bringing charges and testifying is very tramatic. I hope and pray the person finds help.

  216. @ Janna L. Chan:
    My understanding is that they don’t even know how many of the drugs they prescribe work in the brain/body. Finding an effective drug feels kind of like a crapshoot.

    In some cases, Russian roulette, even. When they finally hit on the right drug, it is wonderful to see someone stabilize and able to lead a “normal” life. But getting there was nearly fatal for someone I know. Twice. (For the particular person I’m thinking of.) And I was disheartened to hear that with time the effective drug can lose its effectiveness and then it’s back to the dangerous hit-or-miss process again.

  217. siteseer wrote:

    Well, OT, but there’s my 2cents. I do think a person is much better off with a licensed counselor than a religious wannabe. And if they find the person is not helping them, move on to someone else. All are not equally gifted or motivated. But then that’s true of doctors as well.

    That sums up my thoughts pretty well.

  218. @ bc:
    And to add to that, it’s horrible when a pill that really *does* work well for a life-threatening condition, and a bunch of alternatives have already been ruled out, and the drug cost after insurance is well over $1,000 a month…

    What are we supposed to do if we don’t have the money? Just lie down and die and get out of the way of those who can afford to pay?

    Not to mention how disgusted I am at the price hikes on lifesaving epi pens.

  219. @ Refugee:
    Finding the right set of medications for someone suffering from severe mental illness is always initially a tortuous process, Refugee. I know that from personal experience.

    Even the best-known anti-depressants often only work for 2/3 people for whom they’re prescribed because everyone’s brain chemistry is different.

    However, not treating severe anxiety and depression with medications at all is usually devastating and can often end in suicide.

    This isn’t an easy subject, but I’d bet on the well-being of mentally ill people seeking psychiatric treatment, over those who are not, any day and twice on Sunday.

    Thanks!

  220. Refugee wrote:

    Supposed to say “won’t report him or testify against him”@ Refugee:

    I’m not sure if this was covered under won’t report, but has your friend considered going simply to the licensing board if they don’t want to go to the police? I think they could lodge a complaint without as much trauma as trying to take someone to court and at least get it on record (assuming the person is licensed). OF course, it’s their decision. Just a thought.

  221. My concern here is less about the speaker (though that’s enough!) and more about the same old lie that gets peddled broadly and especially to women:

    “Feeling overwhelmed? That’s your fault. Come buy our product/jump through these hoops and presto! your feelings will go away.”

    NO. No, no, no.

    It’s another lever to push: just worship God the right way, and you won’t mind the fact that you’re not getting enough sleep/doing too much/someone needs professional help/you’re being abused/etc.

    NO.

    It’s an awfully handy way for the authorities to turn women into their own jailers–busy doing whatever those in charge deem useful, groomed to always assume that they could be doing more, that all problems are of their own making.

    What an insidious system. The fact that folks use my Jesus to beat women with…I am so angry.

  222. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    not treating severe anxiety and depression with medications at all is usually devastating and can often end in suicide.

    Yes, major depression really needs medication. The combination of therapy and drugs has the best results, I believe. Mild depression, however, can sometimes be treated just as effectively with exercise. I would never encourage someone not to seek treatment.

    Anxiety I am less familiar with. (I am personally familiar with anxiety, but the clinical outcomes less so!)

  223. BTW, just popped over to ‘ex pastors’ to see what they are yacking about and found this: “Modesty: A Sincere Message to Women from Men”

    I am sure this will not be annoying and ridiculous at all!

  224. buzz wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Carolyn McCulley isn’t just sick but sickening.
    *
    Totally uncalled for comment

    I quote sex crimes prosecutor and famed author Andrew Vachss in how he speaks of enablers of sex abuse.

    And yes, it’s spot on.

  225. Refugee wrote:

    Therapy is doing incredible good for others I know. So the message is not “avoid psychology and psychotherapy, but more caveat emptor. I think that’s the right phrase.

    I know of 3 right now who should not be practicing and all 3 were reported and for the same reason so as not to deal with the trauma again with a lawsuit.

    OTOH, I know a child art therapist who is amazing. But she is always booked. She even adopted several of the severely traumatized children in state care.

    Yes. Buyer beware because we are talking about not only getting into the brain but emotions, etc. It is highly personal not to take vetting seriously. Vetting is time consuming but they know you are serious, too.

  226. @ Lea:
    It takes every ounce of restraint I have to not succumb to skinny jeans. So please, young men, stop it. You are causing me to have sinful thoughts.

    (Wink)

  227. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    Thanks, I guess there’s no rest for the weary if CLC is going to send its people over here now that SGM Survivors is defunct.

    Hopefully other survivors can start another blog, maybe on ProBoards or something like it, and have several administrators to handle SGM.

  228. Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    It takes every ounce of restraint I have to not succumb to skinny jeans. So please, young men, stop it. You are causing me to have sinful thoughts.
    (Wink)

    It cracks me up that men think they need to be able to see skin to lust. Do they have no imagination?

  229. Lydia wrote:

    Buyer beware because we are talking about not only getting into the brain but emotions, etc.

    I forget what site I was on the other day and a girl was talking about how her therapist fired her and she was so upset about it. Reading the article, the reason he fired her is because she developed an unhealthy romantic attachment to him despite him telling her she needs to back off multiple times. He tried to get her set up with another therapist and everything! That is exactly what he should do! She was talking about it like a breakup.

  230. Lea wrote:

    BTW, just popped over to ‘ex pastors’ to see what they are yacking about and found this: “Modesty: A Sincere Message to Women from Men”

    My comment is awaiting moderation. It probably won’t get posted. “Sure. The responsibility of protecting men from temptation always falls upon the woman. If a man has lustfull thoughts and just can’t control himself, it’s always the woman’s fault. Perhaps women should wear burkas and chastity belts to make men more holy.”

  231. I appreciate the good sense spoken here by Janna Chan and by Velour. It is my hope that the prejudice against mental health care among some Christian people will, in time, fade as the general public becomes more knowledgeable about professional mental health care and what can be done to alleviate the suffering of those with depression and anxiety.

    I would repeat that going to your own physician is a good beginning on the quest for help. Especially for those who know very little about what is best to do. Your physician will likely be up on what is available professionally in the community and word does get around about who the better therapists are.

    Worst thing would be to suffer without proper care as permitting depression and anxiety to go unchecked can end very badly indeed. EVERYONE will likely experience some depression or anxiety at some point during their lives. Seeking the right help is not something to fear or be ashamed of, no. Listening to unqualified people who steer you away from proper help is not productive. Starting with a doctor’s visit to determine what is the best plan for your personal need is the most sensible thing to do, yes.

  232. I just got back from the doctor’s office and I am more concerned than ever about the delivery of health care in the US. I am using ‘health care’ as a comprehensive term.

    On the back of the examining room door there is a professional style poster from Novant Health. NH is a practice management network first out of Charlotte but now covering a large area in several states. The poster’s title was: ‘Novant Health’s Answer to a Failed US Health Care System’. The line under that said ‘the problem–an unsustainable system’. Ah hah. So here is what I gather from the notice once they get through talking about money is that basically people are going to have to practice good health habits, oops now wait a minute. We were preaching good health habits back before the system became unsustainable, so what is new? What is new is that they don’t have any better or newer suggestions than this. And yes, the system as it stands is unsustainable.

    So then the nurse informed me that a vaccine I needed cost $400 (prevnar13; for pneumonia) and that some insurances do not cover that cost. Uh huh. I told them that if the insurance would not pay at least part of it then forget it, I will take my chances like everybody else, But yes, it has come to that. And no, good health practices like exercises and green leafy veggies don’t do much for contagious diseases.

    I don’t know what people are going to do. Well, yes, I am afraid I do know some of what will probably happen. Sad.

  233. Nancy2 wrote:

    My comment is awaiting moderation.

    The music was hysterical. Sad faced. Did you know that your modesty is a gift to men? Because otherwise they just can’t handle themselves. Because thoughts!

    I would love to post Tim Fall’s funny graphic on this ‘if my right eye offends, put some more clothes on’.

  234. @ Lea:
    I have an old friend who is horribly attached to her therapist. For 20 years! “She and he” although I don’t think it is sexual at all. They are about 30 yeas apart in age. She goes weekly when she is in town.

    She knows way too much about his personal life. She can’t make a decision without consulting with him. He is a former Presbyterian pastor from the liberal wing and very laid back and not preachy. It is the strangest client/patient relationship I have ever seen. I don’t view it as healthy. She once invited him to lunch with us. It was awkward because she talks about him so much. He really should have ended it a long time ago.

  235. Christiane wrote:

    Worst thing would be to suffer without proper care as permitting depression and anxiety to go unchecked can end very badly indeed. EVERYONE will likely experience some depression or anxiety at some point during their lives. Seeking the right help is not something to fear or be ashamed of, no. Listening to unqualified people who steer you away from proper help is not productive. Starting with a doctor’s visit to determine what is the best plan for your personal need is the most sensible thing to do, yes.

    Sound advice.

  236. Nancy2 wrote:

    My comment is awaiting moderation. It probably won’t get posted. “Sure. The responsibility of protecting men from temptation always falls upon the woman. If a man has lustfull thoughts and just can’t control himself, it’s always the woman’s fault. Perhaps women should wear burkas and chastity belts to make men more holy.”

    Whatever happened to that good od Catholic standby of “custody ofthe eyes”? If you have a problem with a woman showing a well-turned ankle or wrist, or bare shoulders, close your eyes or turn your head. I don’t know what turns you on, it’s not your place to tell me how to dress so you can avoid impure thoughts.

  237. Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    Who is prejudiced here against the mental health system?

    I won’t speak for others, just myself. Plenty of people who are conservative, evangelical Christians are against psychology (therapy) and psychiatry (including medication). Everything is framed as a sin problem in need of the right Scripture verses.

    We’re trying to break the stigma so that people can get help and refer people in need to help.

  238. @ Steve240:

    Speaking of marriage! Congrats to Steve240 on getting married! I had the joy of hearing this from him in person. Proud of you bro!

  239. Lydia wrote:

    For 20 years! “

    Wow! On one hand, I think you would have to get attached to someone after 20 years. But yeah, maybe he should have referred her. IDK.

  240. Velour wrote:

    buzz wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    Carolyn McCulley isn’t just sick but sickening.
    *
    Totally uncalled for comment
    I quote sex crimes prosecutor and famed author Andrew Vachss in how he speaks of enablers of sex abuse.
    And yes, it’s spot on.

    There is NO reason for her blame-the-victim attitude toward child sex abuse victims.
    With all of the information available to educate people about how to handle child sex abuse and she espouses this Dark Ages thinking. Shame on her.

  241. Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    Who is prejudiced here against the mental health system?

    I won’t speak for others, just myself. Plenty of people who are conservative, evangelical Christians are against psychology (therapy) and psychiatry (including medication). Everything is framed as a sin problem in need of the right Scripture verses.

    We’re trying to break the stigma so that people can get help and refer people in need to help.

    Thank you, VELOUR

    That is a very good explanation of my intent also. As far as I can see, just getting a suffering person to go to their physician and ask for that trusted help is a good first step that not too many naysayers or know-it-alls can argue against. I believe this is true, even in most Christian settings, except maybe the extreme ones where no medical help is ever sought.

    People forget that St. Luke who wrote one of the Holy Gospels of Our Lord was himself a physician. 🙂

  242. @ Lea:
    Lea, professional therapy is a ‘process’ with a beginning and an ending. It does NOT go on for years, no. What is being described has nothing to do with professional therapy. 🙂

  243. Christiane wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Lea, professional therapy is a ‘process’ with a beginning and an ending. It does NOT go on for years, no. What is being described has nothing to do with professional therapy.

    I work in mental health. I don’t really need an explanation of what professional therapy entails.

  244. Mel V wrote:

    What an insidious system. The fact that folks use my Jesus to beat women with…I am so angry.

    Phariseeism at it’s finest.

    Matthew 24: 4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5a But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men;

  245. Velour wrote:

    There is NO reason for her blame-the-victim attitude toward child sex abuse victims.
    With all of the information available to educate people about how to handle child sex abuse and she espouses this Dark Ages thinking. Shame on her.

    I’ll bet the ex-pastors blog would say that the children should have dressed more modestly.
    buzz and Carolyn M. would probably agree with that.

  246. @ Lea:
    Professional therapy does not last twenty years, Lea. I can positively share that with you as apparently you were not aware of it unless I misunderstood your comments.

    Therapy has ‘goals’ and does not run on and most certainly does not aim at making a patient ‘dependant’ on their therapist. That is pretty far from acceptable mental health practice. I don’t mind sharing information where mis-information may steer folks away from trying to get professional help. So, if not needed for your benefit, I would still want the readers of TWW to know that professional therapy is goal-oriented with a beginning and an ending, and does not lead to the dependence of a patient on a therapist, no.

  247. Christiane wrote:

    Professional therapy does not last twenty years, Lea. I can positively share that with you as apparently you were not aware of it unless I misunderstood your comments.

    There are a wide variety of therapeutic choices people can make. Mental illness does not always go away. People might need therapy for a short period of time, a longer one, or come back intermittently over an extended period of time as they have transitions, medication changes, or other issues.

    Respectfully, I wish you would not present every bit of knowledge you have as gospel. It sounds like Lydia’s friend has come back in and out of therapy for an extended period. Certainly their relationship may not be a good idea, as they seem to have crossed some boundaries.

    But every patient will not be able to pop into therapy for 8 weeks or 6 months, meet a ‘goal’ and be done.

  248. Christiane wrote:

    . Luke who wrote one of the Holy Gospels of Our Lord was himself a physician.

    Thanks, Christiane.

    I remind people of that as well.

  249. bc wrote:

    I am not against medications being prescribed by with the experience, knowledge, after a thorough evaluation and the willingness to follow up the patient. I would not co sign a medication giving after a 5 minute evaluation, willy nilly shotgun approach, with no counseling or serious follow up

    In my state (California) evaluations take several hours and medication is then prescribed.

  250. Lea wrote:

    I would love to post Tim Fall’s funny graphic on this ‘if my right eye offends, put some more clothes on’.

    LOL

  251. @ Lea:
    the important thing is to help folks understand that ‘therapy’ done professionally is not something that causes an on-going dependency on one’s therapist

    that is one misunderstanding that might keep folks from seeking help at all

    so important not to give the wrong ideas about professional therapy on a site where there may be those who would benefit from trying it, don’t you agree?

  252. Janna L. Chan wrote:

    The whole article treated sexual abuse at Churches like a problem that needs to be handled internally, rather than a crime that the civil authorities need to address.
    Given that that was the policy of the Church Carolyn McCulley was attending at the time, perhaps her perspective should hardly be surprising.

    Just a quick note on the accuracy of my comment. I assumed that Carolyn McCulley was attending Covenant Life Church in 2011 when she wrote the article about sexual abuse and discernment, in question. That Church definitely had a policy of telling people to let Pastors handle sexual abuse allegations “internally” rather than reporting them to the police.

    However, she may have been attending a different SGM Church in 2011 as McCulley transferred her membership from one SGM Church to another, to my knowledge.

    That doesn’t affect my main point substantively as McCulley was clearly heavily-influenced by the policies of Pastors at Covenant Life Church, the SGM Church she worked for and attended for many years.

    In addition, in 2011, most, if not all, SGM Churches operated under the same unwritten assumption, which McCulley arguably indirectly supports in her article, that sexual abuse issues should be handled internally by Churches as opposed to be reported to secular law enforcement authorities.

    Again, I’m being nit-picky yet want my comments to be as accurate as possible. Thanks!

  253. Christiane wrote:

    Lea, professional therapy is a ‘process’ with a beginning and an ending. It does NOT go on for years, no. What is being described has nothing to do with professional therapy.

    Unless of course the patient is on meds and followup is required however long it takes. People can lose their medical license for continuing to leave a patient on meds with no followup. I go every six months to the oncologist for follow up and blood work because long term use of meds is dangerous and I am on meds. Also every six months to the FMD for followup up re asthma and hypertension meds. And I will do this every year until I die. For the FMD followup it has already been more than 20 years. So also with mood altering meds and anti-psychotic meds which are not just given to people and then they are waved off and left on meds with no followup. And if that happens there may be cause for legal action when/if things go awry.

  254. Deb wrote:

    Finally, thanks for the blog post suggestion.  I do believe I’ll take a closer look at Carolyn McCulley and what she is teaching women.

    There’s certainly nothing wrong with doing that. However, David MacKenzie’s suggestion that you have to be intimately familiar with every piece of drivel about complementarianism that Carolyn McCulley has produced, in order to fairly evaluate her behavior regarding the treatment of sexual abuse victims, is silly.

    He seems to be saying the following, “why should we care if Carolyn McCulley throws sexual abuse victims under the bus when the totality of her ‘men are better than women’ body of work is so awesome and she’s nice to me when I see her at coffee hour?”

    Where do I throw up? 😉

  255. Christiane wrote:

    so important not to give the wrong ideas about professional therapy on a site where there may be those who would benefit from trying it, don’t you agree?

    I guess you missed the more or less recent comments about AA and how some people become ‘dependent’ on AA as therapy. Dependency happens sometimes in ‘situations’ and people need to know this. I have no stats on how frequent it may be.

  256. Christiane wrote:

    the important thing is to help folks understand that ‘therapy’ done professionally is not something that causes an on-going dependency on one’s therapist
    that is one misunderstanding that might keep folks from seeking help at all
    so important not to give the wrong ideas about professional therapy on a site where there may be those who would benefit from trying it, don’t you agree?

    That is also my concern.

    The discussion earlier on the thread that therapists aren’t trustworthy, are brought up on ethics charges, abuse clients in some way, create dependency, etc. does not happen in the vast majority of therapist-client relationships.

    Sure people should vet therapists.

    But people in need of help who don’t it get much worse and some may actually die (via suicide, overdoses, etc).

  257. @ okrapod:
    when we say ‘professional therapy’, are we talking about the same thing?

    AA is a support system for people who ARE alcoholics, and it does help many people;
    but I wouldn’t call it the same thing as professional therapy, no

    ‘support systems’ have their on-going function in people’s lives
    especially when a person is afflicted with a chronic problem

    a ‘dependency model’ would just replace one possibly abusive form of control over a person’s life with another form of control, and that is not what professional therapy is all about, no ….. the idea of professional therapy would be to facilitate the patient eventually moving towards some integral personal strength hopefully and that is a far cry from any firm dependency model which gets the patient ‘stuck’ in going no where

  258. okrapod wrote:

    basically people are going to have to practice good health habits,

    The healthcare system is unsustainable because it is built on fantasy economics and magical thinking and a significant amount of crony capitalism. For starters.

  259. Velour wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Worst thing would be to suffer without proper care as permitting depression and anxiety to go unchecked can end very badly indeed. EVERYONE will likely experience some depression or anxiety at some point during their lives. Seeking the right help is not something to fear or be ashamed of, no. Listening to unqualified people who steer you away from proper help is not productive. Starting with a doctor’s visit to determine what is the best plan for your personal need is the most sensible thing to do, yes.

    Sound advice.

    You have many sound comments that I agree with. I dealt with many people who were in long term situations that had reached one of the crisis times. I say one of the crisis times because many people lived in the midst of escalating crises.
    If a house were burning and there was someone inside you wouldn’t refer them to a Dr. The urgency would be to get them out of the burning house. They might be confused and reluctant to leave as is often the case with someone in the midst of crisis. This is often the case with physical and sexual abuse. Shame often has them wanting to hide what is taking place.
    In such cases getting the individual/s to a safe place with a progression of support e.g. Police, emergency room, or battered woman shelter, to support group, to medical and/or pychological evaluation etc etc. This is usually not a one stop situation and the initial contact person should continue to follow up and be supportive through the process. What okrapod has said about cost is oooooo so true and it is often the reason people don’t seek help. If you are the initial contact person, it will serve you well to know or find someone who does, all the resources available including state, federal, non profit (e.g. a baby needing eye surgery may well be paid for by the Lions club) and assisting that person apply for those resources.

    By the way, I haven’t been retired for 50 years but there was a reason I mentioned Kinsey. I love Science and good research. I have health issues where I wouldn’t be alive 100 years ago with out the discoveries that have been made. Having said that, Science (and unfortunetely pseudoscience) was put on a pedestal and given more credibility than the tablets that Moses came down the mountain with. Kinsey was an evil, pedophile who under the guise of “science” did horrible things to children which were hidden from the public. Yet his conclusions were accepted and contributed to massive changes for the worse in our society and he was even lauded as some sort of hero. Many in the field of psychology were and are unfortunately still accepting of what he was promoting such as minimizing the damage done to children. Did you know that Freud was a cocaine addict?

    A serious medical evaluation is so important in this process (eg. rape, STD’s, physical injury, drug and alcohol abuse can easily be mistaken and labeled bi-polar, etc.

    I also believe that everyone on this blog means well and like the facets on a diamond will view these situations from different vantage points based on their experience and thoughts. When I say that we live in a fallen world I know that some of the most tragic problems in our society are not being looked at or dealt with. So I feel that what D&D are doing to bring out what is hidden in the swamp of the church is extreemly important and all of you are helping in bringing things out in the open and to those who are still in the swamp.

  260. okrapod wrote:

    So also with mood altering meds and anti-psychotic meds which are not just given to people and then they are waved off and left on meds with no followup.

    In my state (California) there are legal requirements for follow-up medication meeting checks with the psychiatrist. Medications are only written for a certain number of renewals (months). In order for a patient to get more medication they have to see the psychiatrist who will write another prescription.

  261. okrapod wrote:

    I just got back from the doctor’s office and I am more concerned than ever about the delivery of health care in the US. I am using ‘health care’ as a comprehensive term.

    It is a huge freaking MESS. And no wonder we can’t get normal people running for office, who wants to tackle all the messes we’ve got going right now?

  262. @ Christiane:

    Drug therapy is also therapy. And drug therapy is the issue that has caused so much concern as a public health issue based on over-prescribing. If you are limiting the word therapy to a specific thing such as perhaps cognitive therapy then you need to specify your definition or else your advice is way too broad to be accurate. Also the term mental health or mental illness in not specific and ranges all the way from somebody who needs to talk to somebody a little to the other extreme of unmanageable loss of reality and long term hospitalization. What I have heard from one or more commenters here has been in regard to the more seriously difficult and long term diagnoses. To simply say that ‘therapy’ is just a short term business for ‘mental illness’ is hugely misleading.

  263. okrapod wrote:

    And drug therapy is the issue that has caused so much concern as a public health issue based on over-prescribing.

    In what state are you talking about?

    In my state (California) prescriptions are highly regulated, can only be prescribed every few months, and are tracked by the state.

  264. @ siteseer:

    True. My insurance paid anyhow, but true none the lesss.
    @ Velour:

    California has long been a national leader in laws governing health care. They were, I think, the first to require sex ed for doctors for licensure, for example. Some things I am wary of out there, but health care is not one of them.

  265. @ Velour:
    Velour wrote:

    The discussion earlier on the thread that therapists aren’t trustworthy, are brought up on ethics charges, abuse clients in some way, create dependency, etc. does not happen in the vast majority of therapist-client relationships.

    Sure people should vet therapists.

    But people in need of help who don’t it get much worse and some may actually die (via suicide, overdoses, etc).

    Velour, thank you for emphasizing this. For some individuals who are scared away from therapy by emphasis on extreme exceptions, it can be a life or death matter. On this site, that kind of discouragement seems counter-productive. I’m for people getting their physicians to advise them. That is one source of help for ‘vetting’ that has some gravitas, as physicians generally know who in the community is respected among mental health providers.

  266. Velour wrote:

    In what state are you talking about?
    In my state (California) prescriptions are highly regulated, can only be prescribed every few months, and are tracked by the state.

    Here is an introductory article. You can then take whatever diagnosis interests you and follow up on google with articles pro and con, worried or not, etc. This article is about how much of what is being prescribed. There is just a bunch of stuff on line once you get started down the path.

    http://apps.who.int/medicinedocs/documents/s19032en/s19032en.pdf

  267. Velour wrote:

    Sure people should vet therapists.

    So what is wrong with discussing that aspect of the situation? I guess I am confused. If someone here warns about that aspect it automatically means they don’t want people helped? I don’t get the twisting words scolding as it comes off as censoring and shaming for daring to think. Frankly it comes off as very “Nouthetic”, ironically.

  268. @ Lea:

    Just wanted to chime in to say I had clinical depression from a very young age. Most of it seems to have cleared up in the last few years.

    (I still have anxiety and sometimes panic attacks.)

    The medications I took for depression and anxiety (prescribed by psychiatrists) did not help me. (But I am not saying others should not try medications.)

    From reading books by other mental health professional (both Christian and Non) I found that a lot of bad thinking (instilled in me by my parents and Christian teachings) was at the root of a lot of my depression.

    Changing my thinking on who I am, about other people and other things, helped to clear up most of the depression.

    Just thought I’d put that out there for anyone who’s already tried seeing a shrink or taking pills and it didn’t seem to work. Don’t give up hope, there may be some other approach or treatment that gets you over or through depression.

    Prior to all that, I tried the cliched Christian approach to tackling depression and anxiety: prayer, faith for a healing, Bible reading, doing charity work, but none of that stuff helped me at all.

  269. Lea wrote:

    BTW, just popped over to ‘ex pastors’ to see what they are yacking about and found this: “Modesty: A Sincere Message to Women from Men”
    I am sure this will not be annoying and ridiculous at all!

    I haven’t been to that site to read that article.

    Let me guess, it shames and guilt trips women, holds women responsible for men’s sexual sins, and screams at women or implores them to avoid wearing tank tops, Yoga pants, and mini-skirts.

    No, all the men out there. I’m going to keep dressing however I want. I’m not changing my wardrobe to make a few scolds happy.

    You’re not going to see secular women wearing burkas to appease your sexist, retrograde “modesty” teachings, and you can control yourselves around them, so I know you can dang well keep it zipped up if you see a Christian woman wearing spaghetti straps, heels, or a bathing suit.

  270. @ Christiane:

    I don’t think Bridget was saying above that people shouldn’t see mental health professionals.

    She was saying if or when you do see one, go doctor shopping to make sure he or she is qualified.

    I’ve read books by therapists and psychiatrists who say the same thing: they say there are quacks out there who work as therapists and psychologists, and some of them just may not be a good fit for you (their personality clashes with yours), so shop around until you find a MHP* who you are comfortable with and/or who is competent.

    *(MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL)

  271. Lydia wrote:

    She can’t make a decision without consulting with him

    Yowza, that is not good. He should be able to spot that she’s doing that, and encourage her to make decisions without consulting him. And certainly not over a 20 year period.

  272. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    Whatever happened to that good od Catholic standby of “custody ofthe eyes”? If you have a problem with a woman showing a well-turned ankle or wrist, or bare shoulders, close your eyes or turn your head. I don’t know what turns you on, it’s not your place to tell me how to dress so you can avoid impure thoughts.

    This is one thing of several that drives me up the wall with modesty teachings. It is purely subjective.

    What one man thinks is hubba-hubba sexy, another man would consider non-sexual. A woman cannot dress to please ALL men out there.

    Even if a woman wore a potato sack, some dude out there would still find her sexy.

  273. Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ Christiane:
    Who is prejudiced here against the mental health system?
    I won’t speak for others, just myself. Plenty of people who are conservative, evangelical Christians are against psychology (therapy) and psychiatry (including medication). Everything is framed as a sin problem in need of the right Scripture verses.
    We’re trying to break the stigma so that people can get help and refer people in need to help.

    I think she meant in terms of this blog specifically.

    There is certainly a lot of prejudice against and fear of psychology among a lot of conservative Christians in general, but not too many people like that post to this blog regularly.

  274. Lydia wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    Sure people should vet therapists.

    So what is wrong with discussing that aspect of the situation? I guess I am confused. If someone here warns about that aspect it automatically means they don’t want people helped? I don’t get the twisting words scolding as it comes off as censoring and shaming for daring to think. Frankly it comes off as very “Nouthetic”, ironically.

    To me, some untrained know-it-all trying to advise people about mental health is more ‘nouthetic’ than someone advising people to seek out help through the avenue of their physician.

  275. @ Christiane:

    I hesitate to say anything critical about AA because many of its adherents get easily offended and chew me out.

    But if you google around, you can find a lot of material out there showing that AA is not that successful and sometimes can create a mess of other problems (among them, 13th stepping, access to targets for pedophiles, sexual harassment of women who go to meetings, etc).

    “After 75 Years of Alcoholics Anonymous, It’s Time to Admit We Have a Problem”
    https://psmag.com/after-75-years-of-alcoholics-anonymous-it-s-time-to-admit-we-have-a-problem-257710a7b393#.li7d0qlat

  276. @ siteseer:

    “It seems like a lot of these events are all about selling you something that is already freely available to you. You don’t need to pay someone to tell you how to be overwhelmed by God.”
    +++++++++++++

    anyone remember Father Sarducci’s Mr. Tea skit from SNL? (I was very young when i saw it)

    it’s the first thing that has come to mind with every bible study, sermon, christian speaker, christian book i’ve encountered in the last 20 years.

  277. Daisy wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    I hesitate to say anything critical about AA because many of its adherents get easily offended and chew me out.
    But if you google around, you can find a lot of material out there showing that AA is not that successful and sometimes can create a mess of other problems (among them, 13th stepping, access to targets for pedophiles, sexual harassment of women who go to meetings, etc).
    “After 75 Years of Alcoholics Anonymous, It’s Time to Admit We Have a Problem”
    https://psmag.com/after-75-years-of-alcoholics-anonymous-it-s-time-to-admit-we-have-a-problem-257710a7b393#.li7d0qlat

    Some have problems. Others don’t.

    I know you’ve posted your opposition to it in the past regarding family members.

    I have women friends who are in A.A. and men friends too. It saved their life. Many have made complete changes. There are women-only groups, etc.

  278. Lydia wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Sure people should vet therapists.
    So what is wrong with discussing that aspect of the situation? I guess I am confused. If someone here warns about that aspect it automatically means they don’t want people helped? I don’t get the twisting words scolding as it comes off as censoring and shaming for daring to think. Frankly it comes off as very “Nouthetic”, ironically.

    Hi Lydia,

    I’m not following you. I am advocating vetting psychotherapists and psychiatrists to make sure that a person gets the proper kind of mental health care.

    I can cite many stories of people who were helped by good care, their lives were improved,
    and they were never harmed by psychologists/therapists or psychiatrists. I think problem persons in any profession may be three standard deviations from the mean and not representative of the norm (under the bell curve).

    Thanks.

  279. Refugee wrote:

    Not to mention how disgusted I am at the price hikes on lifesaving epi pens.

    As that one guy who hiked a drug price 6000+% put it as he smirked before Congress:
    Divine Right of Stockholders/Investors.

  280. Christiane wrote:

    To me, some untrained know-it-all trying to advise people about mental health is more ‘nouthetic’ than someone advising people to seek out help through the avenue of their physician.

    I’d add an exception or two to that. If someone has personally experienced mental health problems, I think they may have some valuable input to offer. I just did in a post above. Maybe someone out there can benefit from my experience.

    I don’t think it’s a know-it-all mentality to encourage people to research physicians before going to see one.

    My father knows a lot about cars (I know next to nothing). For years, my father would choose mechanics for his cars, guys who he felt were honest and competent. Then, if I had a car problem, he’d tell me to go use the same mechanic as him.

    I see the mental health conversation as being similar to that situation. Shop around, ask people who’ve been down the same road you’ve been down, and so on and so forth.

    There are, if I am not mistaken, doctor rating sites out there. You can plug in a doctor’s name and up pops reader surveys rating the guy or lady.

    I know those types of sites exist for university professors, too.

  281. Velour wrote:

    Some have problems. Others don’t.
    I know you’ve posted your opposition to it in the past regarding family members.
    I have women friends who are in A.A. and men friends too. It saved their life. Many have made complete changes. There are women-only groups, etc.

    There’s a ton of articles out there disputing AA’s benefit and success rates. (I just linked to one such article above.)
    Here’s another:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/

    You know churches who promote Nouthetic Counseling?
    I’ve been to some of their sites where they have FAQs pages about Nouthetic Counseling (aka “biblical counseling”), and you can find testimonies by Christians on those pages saying how beneficial and helpful Nouthetic Counselng was to them personally.

    Which is great it worked for those individuals, but I still would not recommend Nouthetic Counseling to most folks. -Apply that to Alcoholics Anonymous.

  282. Velour wrote:

    Hi Lydia,
    I’m not following you. I am advocating vetting psychotherapists and psychiatrists to make sure that a person gets the proper kind of mental health care.

    I’ve seen several people in this thread imply that anyone advising someone else on researching a doctor before seeing one is somehow discouraging people from seeking professional help.

    The fact is, not all doctors are honest, competent, or moral. There’s nothing wrong with admitting that.

    Reminding people of that fact is not the same thing as saying, “if you suffer depression, rely only on Bible reading,” or, “all psychology is wrong and evil.”

    It’s not discouraging people in need of seeing a doctor. It’s just saying, please be wise and cautious when you do decide to see a doctor.

  283. Daisy wrote:

    Which is great it worked for those individuals, but I still would not recommend Nouthetic Counseling to most folks. -Apply that to Alcoholics Anonymous.

    The recovering alcoholics I know, many of whom are quite successful in life, have found support in A.A. and people who ‘get it’. I’m not a drinker so I don’t ‘get it’. They have also gotten help for complex problems in psychotherapy, treatment for depression and bipolar in psychiatry (if they’ve been diagnosed with that).

    One friend also goes to Debtors Anonymous (which deals with underearning, debting, goals, self-care). She said, “A.A. saved my life and D.A. gave me a life.”

    I don’t know what part of the nation you live but there’s a lot of A.A. meetings here and problem drinkers are also court-mandated to go.

  284. Daisy wrote:

    It’s not discouraging people in need of seeing a doctor. It’s just saying, please be wise and cautious when you do decide to see a doctor.

    I hear what you’re saying, Daisy.

    I just didn’t see the comments framed that way, i.e. “Here are Steps 1 through 5 for vetting a therapist/psychiatrist.” Some of the comments were highly negative and that concerns me since we have lurkers who may not speak up, there is a high rate of mental health problems, and someone may just throw in the towel and not bother getting help if the helpers are portrayed as a bunch of creeps.

    Here’s a helpful link for anyone who may need it for National Alliance on Mental Illness.
    N.A.M.I. http://www.nami.org/

  285. Velour wrote:

    I don’t know what part of the nation you live but there’s a lot of A.A. meetings here and problem drinkers are also court-mandated to go.

    I read oodles of blogs and sites by ex-AA members, and one of its many problems is the court-mandated thing.

    You have a bunch of violent criminals who get ordered to go. Because the whole thing is Anon, you could be sitting next to an alcoholic pedo or rapists and not know it – which is how a lot of women and kids get targeted.

    There are other issues involved, such as…

    “In fact, some studies find that people mandated into AA do worse than those who are simply left alone.”
    Source:
    https://psmag.com/after-75-years-of-alcoholics-anonymous-it-s-time-to-admit-we-have-a-problem-257710a7b393#.ed2lwa9q0

  286. By the way, we have not mentioned that choice of a therapist will be heavily influenced if not actually decided by which one is on one’s insurance carrier’s list of approved providers.

    And I want to add something, speaking of insurance issues. I do not necessarily agree that one’s family physician will know where to refer the patient, other than to somebody he likes and to somebody in the same practice network, because all he knows is reputation and he likely has not actually seen the other guy at work, but that is perhaps better than nothing. If the referring physician and the insurance company are saying the same thing that is a start at any rate. But if you really want to know the scoop on the docs outside the mental health field then ask the nurses at the hospital. They have actually seen the docs in action and do not need to rely on reputation of the guy to know what they think. I learned this several ways (for those who want to know why I say this). (1) been there and done that, (2) my former malpractice carrier told us to be nice to the nurses and the front office personnel because they will (will) be talking to the patients about you and many malpractice suits are triggered this way, which gave me the idea that I might ask even a nurse that I did not know personally about Dr X and get some information. (3) I did ask a nurse I did not know but who worked in the OP surgery hospital here what her opinion was of two possible surgeons I had to choose from for my own surgery. She gave me extremely honest and specific information. I took her advice and was pleased with the results.

    Ask the nurses never hurts and it may help enormously.

  287. @ Velour:

    It wasn’t you per se who was doing so – it was the other lady in the thread who was either intentionally or un-intentionally portraying Bridget’s earlier posts as being some kind of put down of professional help, which is not where Bridget was coming from, as far as I could tell.

  288. Daisy wrote:

    @ Velour:
    It wasn’t you per se who was doing so – it was the other lady in the thread who was either intentionally or un-intentionally portraying Bridget’s earlier posts as being some kind of put down of professional help, which is not where Bridget was coming from, as far as I could tell.

    OK.

    I think that when Bridget shared more about her own family situation (abused children, she didn’t know as the mother, all kinds of problems and acting out, and still lots of damage from being abused that has not been resolved) I had a better idea of where she was coming from.

  289. @ okrapod:

    Good advice, Okrapod.

    People should also ask nurses (including psychiatric nurses) for any referrals to schools that are training therapists with supervisors, psychiatrists on staff. We have those in my area and they are low-cost and overall very good. I refer people to them.

  290. @ Daisy:

    That’s why there are closed A.A. meetings, women only meetings, men only meetings, etc.

    I have many friends who have been saved by A.A. (women and men). Some people have had problems in meetings. The vast majority have not and have been protected by sponsors and others.

  291. Velour wrote:

    People should also ask nurses (including psychiatric nurses) for any referrals to schools that are training therapists with supervisors, psychiatrists on staff. We have those in my area and they are low-cost and overall very good. I refer people to them.

    Yes. I completely forgot about that. Someone still in training but working with good supervision might be an excellent choice.

  292. @ bc:

    Thank you so much for taking the time to post a long reply to me. It gives me more insight about where you are coming from.

    I agree with you about Kinsey. But thankfully a lot has changed in the 60 years since he died. So much research. Many excellent women and men in the field. Very blessed that they have been using their god-given gifts to improve peoples’ lives, including the lives of children.

    Yes, there are dangerous people (wolves) amongst us — in our churches and elsewhere — and so we must be wise in our dealings. But there are still safe, sound, good people…and let’s hope people in need find them.

    Take care.

  293. @ Velour:

    @ Velour:

    Thanks, Velour! I’ll check those out when I have time.

    @ Mel V:

    You nailed the vicious circle! It is why I don’t attend a physical church right now. Don’t know of I will again. I can love God and do good without all the extra biblical hoopla.

  294. okrapod wrote:

    @ siteseer:
    True. My insurance paid anyhow, but true none the lesss.
    @ Velour:
    California has long been a national leader in laws governing health care. They were, I think, the first to require sex ed for doctors for licensure, for example. Some things I am wary of out there, but health care is not one of them.

    Yes, we usually break ground here (California) on many laws.

    I got a law passed for high-risk crime victims, domestic violence victims, stalking and sexual assault victims. It was four years of very hard work and testifying before a legislative committee. But woo hoo…it passed.

    It has helped many people and for that I am grateful. Washington state started it and they mentored me to get it passed here in California.

  295. Nancy2 wrote:

    If a man has lustfull thoughts and just can’t control himself,

    I’m of the thought this is mainly a problem within the Christian male world. I recently started working 20-30 hours per week. I work with a man in his new start of business. We are alone all day. Somehow we are managing a business friendship without me covering myself from head to toe 😉

  296. Velour wrote:

    Yes, we usually break ground here (California) on many laws.

    We always said Cali was ten years ahead of the rest of the country, even the East Coast. 🙂

  297. Velour wrote:

    Some of the comments were highly negative and that concerns me since we have lurkers who may not speak up, there is a high rate of mental health problems, and someone may just throw in the towel and not bother getting help if the helpers are portrayed as a bunch of creeps.

    That was my concern also.

  298. Christiane wrote:

    On this site, that kind of discouragement seems counter-productive. I’m for people getting their physicians to advise them.

    That is not what has been going on in this thread or this site.

  299. Velour wrote:

    Some of the comments were highly negative

    I think that is what you read into the comments. No one was being negative. They were advising caution.

    Maybe

  300. Velour wrote:

    I had a better idea of where she was coming from.

    You may have a little bit of a better understanding, but please don’t presume to have me all figured out and in a neat little box. You will be mistaken. One of the reasons I don’t share much of my own experience is because of the conclusions people come to without really knowing anything.

  301. Bridget wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Some of the comments were highly negative
    I think that is what you read into the comments. No one was being negative. They were advising caution.
    Maybe

    Hi Bridget,

    That might not have been some peoples’ intent, but we do have lurkers who read here.
    I keep that in mind and that mental health problems are a serious public health issue.

  302. Bridget wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I had a better idea of where she was coming from.
    You may have a little bit of a better understanding, but please don’t presume to have me all figured out and in a neat little box. You will be mistaken. One of the reasons I don’t share much of my own experience is because of the conclusions people come to without really knowing anything.

    Hi Bridget,

    I appreciated hearing a little bit more about your life, story, and experience.
    Thanks for your transparency yesterday.

    Rest assured, I don’t really work on figuring people out and I’m not interested in doing so. I have my own life.

  303. Bridget wrote:

    bc wrote:

    One of my degrees is in Psychology and I would strongly suggest that you need to discerning in your choice of licensed help there also. The field has genuine good people but also more than it’s share of people with severe personality disorders and kinkyness. e.g. Kinsey and his followers.

    I so agree with this. Add doctors, dentists, lawyers, message therapists, and any licensed professional to the “be discerning” list. A license “guarantees” some knowledge, but not necessarily wisdom or morals.

    Well, looking back, I think ‘what has been going on’ started with THIS comment and response. I’d say no one could fully understand your point of view until you shared some of what you had been through personally. I don’t discount your voice, but I must admit your point of view is better understood after reading what you have shared with us, yes.

    Hopefully, you were able to read the comment from Janna Chan who offered some good advice to you in a friendly way.

  304. Velour wrote:

    @ bc:

    Thank you so much for taking the time to post a long reply to me. It gives me more insight about where you are coming from.

    I agree with you about Kinsey. But thankfully a lot has changed in the 60 years since he died. So much research. Many excellent women and men in the field. Very blessed that they have been using their god-given gifts to improve peoples’ lives, including the lives of children.

    Yes, there are dangerous people (wolves) amongst us — in our churches and elsewhere — and so we must be wise in our dealings. But there are still safe, sound, good people…and let’s hope people in need find them.

    Take care.

    Thank you
    And let us remember that not all people who need help are mentally ill or in need of such drugs. People who have been victimized may not need a psychotherapist… they may need getting out of the situation, it may be dangerous or demeaning. They may need legal advice, a safe house, financial advice, food, clothing. I have in been called in for women who barely got out with the clothes on their backs but no shoes and no where to go.

  305. Janna,

    I was trying to encourage you for your research and you must have misinterpreted my comments. I am not ghost-posting for anyone, never have. Please, as you strive to be accurate, be considerate as well. You posted several insulting comments about me based on assumptions which are wrong.

    I was trying to say that I don’t have first-hand experience with the struggles that women especially face. I haven’t read Carolyn’s books, as they weren’t interesting topics to me as a man. But I do know some things about her and have heard some of her conference sessions over the years (it used to be my job to record and upload them for SGM).

    As Eagle has noted in his blog, Carolyn moved her membership from Covenant Life to Redeemer Arlington when it started in 2009, to confirm one minor factual point which has come up.

    Deb asked me to name all of the people in the “milestone weekend” musical video. I don’t think that’s relevant to this discussion and I am not sure it’s appropriate to post their names in this context. Some of them have stayed loyal to SGM and some haven’t. They were all regulars on CLC’s drama team at the time (since disbanded, as the majority of them left CLC in the shakeup around 2012).

  306. bc wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    @ bc:
    Thank you so much for taking the time to post a long reply to me. It gives me more insight about where you are coming from.
    I agree with you about Kinsey. But thankfully a lot has changed in the 60 years since he died. So much research. Many excellent women and men in the field. Very blessed that they have been using their god-given gifts to improve peoples’ lives, including the lives of children.
    Yes, there are dangerous people (wolves) amongst us — in our churches and elsewhere — and so we must be wise in our dealings. But there are still safe, sound, good people…and let’s hope people in need find them.
    Take care.
    Thank you
    And let us remember that not all people who need help are mentally ill or in need of such drugs. People who have been victimized may not need a psychotherapist… they may need getting out of the situation, it may be dangerous or demeaning. They may need legal advice, a safe house, financial advice, food, clothing. I have in been called in for women who barely got out with the clothes on their backs but no shoes and no where to go.

    Oh, I refer people to all kinds of help depending on the problems they are facing.
    I changed my state law (California) for high-risk domestic violence, stalking, and sexual assault victims.

    I have worked in law offices for decades.

  307. Bridget wrote:

    That is not what has been going on in this thread or this site.

    I’ll poke my nose in and agree. This was a controversy yesterday and I see that it was still getting worked out today. I’m an engineer, we have a board of ethics but I’ve still run across some questionable and unethical engineers. I’m also on the board of directors of a local non-profit dealing with counseling and I see the same thing with state certified counselors, some good and bad. I was surprised that pointing out the need for caution in selection elicited such blowback. Instead of counterpoints to your point, some of the response struck me as suppression, yuck.

  308. Dave MacKenzie wrote:

    Deb asked me to name all of the people in the “milestone weekend” musical video. I don’t think that’s relevant to this discussion and I am not sure it’s appropriate to post their names in this context. Some of them have stayed loyal to SGM and some haven’t. They were all regulars on CLC’s drama team at the time (since disbanded, as the majority of them left CLC in the shakeup around 2012).

    I did???

    Here’s my entire comment today at 9:13a.m.

    @ David MacKenzie:

    I’ll take you at your word regarding the skit since I have no clue who the participants were. One of the women resembled Carolyn McCulley to me.

    Since Carolyn’s first book Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye? was published in 2004 (the same year as the skit) and her senior pastor (C.J. Mahaney) gave a glowing endorsement on the back cover (https://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product_slideshow?sku=45791&actual_sku=45791&slide=98), I figured she would have wanted to demonstrate her tremendous appreciation for him at this church event since he obviously had a big hand in launching her career. Sorry for the mistaken identity.

    It is my contention that Carolyn McCulley’s theology was heavily influenced by her former pastor. C.J. has certainly opened doors for her.

    Case in point – C.J. Mahaney spoke at every single Resolved Conference from 2005 to 2012. Only one woman was invited to speak during that entire time, and guess who it was? Carolyn McCulley (who came to address the women).

    Finally, thanks for the blog post suggestion. I do believe I’ll take a closer look at Carolyn McCulley and what she is teaching women.

    Where did I ask you to name those in the skit?

  309. Bill M wrote:

    I was surprised that pointing out the need for caution in selection elicited such blowback. Instead of counterpoints to your point, some of the response struck me as suppression, yuck.

    I respectfully disagree, Bill M.

    The ‘blowback’ was not over the issue of the importance of vetting professionals, i.e. ‘caution’, before making appointments with them. That’s important whether one is making an appointment with a therapist or a plumber.

    I was alarmed by the number of negative comments about therapists and psychiatrists. Does anybody know anyone who was helped by a therapist or a psychiatrist? You wouldn’t know it from the comments, many of which were negative and derogatory about these professions.

    There are many people who lurk here and read, never commenting. If they fall in the statistical pool of people who have untreated mental health issues it doesn’t give them any confidence in reaching out for help if these professions are portrayed as being creeps. We have a public health crisis of mental health issues.

    I had a neighbor whose life was recently saved by quality mental health professionals. And for that, I thank them for their awesome help to him.

    I can name many people who work in these professions, are excellent at what they do, are highly educated, and really care about helping people with mental health issues.

  310. Velour wrote:

    I was alarmed by the number of negative comments about therapists and psychiatrists.

    One thing I’ve picked up from hanging around counselors is that a comment can act as a trip wire proving a reaction, not so much from what was actually said but to a history of things said. This might be what is happening here because within this thread I just don’t see what you are referring to, again within this thread, and that was after re-reading the thread yesterday and mulling it over today. I still think it would be more fruitful in this case to counterpoint than squelch comments.

  311. Bill M wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I was alarmed by the number of negative comments about therapists and psychiatrists.
    One thing I’ve picked up from hanging around counselors is that a comment can act as a trip wire proving a reaction, not so much from what was actually said but to a history of things said. This might be what is happening here because within this thread I just don’t see what you are referring to, again within this thread, and that was after re-reading the thread yesterday and mulling it over today. I still think it would be more fruitful in this case to counterpoint than squelch comments.

    Thanks for your thoughts, Bill M.

    Here’s a good resource from the National Alliance on Mental Illness (N.A.M.I.)
    that I think is important to give people who are seeking mental health care:
    http://www.nami.org/Find-Support/Living-with-a-Mental-Health-Condition/Finding-a-Mental-Health-Professional

  312. @ Velour:
    Velour, I do know one possible reason why some people who have experience with going into therapy will bad-mouth mental health professionals. There is a point in the therapy process where the therapist will confront the individual, and some patients will leave therapy when this happens rather than work through it (the working through the confrontation is a healing part of the therapy process) . . . . . this does happen in some cases. So if a patient (client) has not completed therapy successfully and has walked away from it when it got too difficult for them (it can at times bring up some very painful issues to the surface, yes);
    then of course, the patient would not have a good outcome, having voluntarily terminated their own therapy before it had a chance to work through their difficult issues.

    So when we hear negativity from certain people, perhaps they have heard it from those who walked away from their treatment before it was worked through, or they themselves could not or would not complete the process when it got to the painful stage where the real work is done in earnest. (?)

    I can see how this can happen. Therapy is not a cake-walk, it is really hard work and requires a commitment to that work; but there are enough people who have been really helped by therapy to vouch for its effectiveness in their own situations, yes.

    My hope is that people who suffer will reach out for help and not be discouraged, as these suffering people are easily discouraged and sadly, are more vulnerable to the negativity of others.

  313. Christiane wrote:

    Therapy is not a cake-walk, it is really hard work and requires a commitment to that work; but there are enough people who have been really helped by therapy to vouch for its effectiveness in their own situations, yes.
    My hope is that people who suffer will reach out for help and not be discouraged, as these suffering people are easily discouraged and sadly, are more vulnerable to the negativity of others.

    Agreed.

    People in their pain, frustration, and powerlessness sometimes lash out at therapists sometimes for not changing a relative (spouse, parent, child or sibling).
    I can cite several examples. I know several such examples.

  314. @ Velour:
    I’m sorry if I did not think of the possibility of some of the negativity expressed here coming out of that kind of pain. I cannot fault anyone for speaking their truth as they see it when they have suffered or members of their family have suffered. Their voices deserve to be heard in a way that does not diminish what they have gone through.

  315. Refugee wrote:

    Well for my part, I tried to balance my word of caution with other points of how helpful psychiatry and psychology and counseling has been to others I know well.

    Thanks for adding on your thoughts too, Refugee.

  316. Velour wrote:

    Agreed.
    People in their pain, frustration, and powerlessness sometimes lash out at therapists sometimes for not changing a relative (spouse, parent, child or sibling).
    I can cite several examples. I know several such examples.

    Yes that does happen sometimes. Thankfully, in our case it did not. One of my family members who needed help found a wonderful psychologist on the first try and met with them for over three years. My family member was also on meds for a season. I have never had a bad experience with someone in the mental health field, but as people (even some in the field) have testified to in this thread, it happens.

  317. Daisy wrote:

    There’s a ton of articles out there disputing AA’s benefit and success rates.

    Scrolling up, I wanted to add this about AA. I think it’s strength is probably in the communal aspect – similar to other group therapy – and the sponsor.

    There have been a lot of negative articles about AA lately. Many have suggested that people who merely need to cut down on drinking are being told that they cannot drink at all. I think this is probably highly individual? Some people cannot drink at all. Some people may be having 4 drinks in an emotion state and can simply stop doing that and for those people, maybe AA is counterproductive because they are abusing alcohol not alcohol dependent. So it’s really a matter of realizing that AA is not for everyone.

  318. okrapod wrote:

    Also the term mental health or mental illness in not specific and ranges all the way from somebody who needs to talk to somebody a little to the other extreme of unmanageable loss of reality and long term hospitalization. What I have heard from one or more commenters here has been in regard to the more seriously difficult and long term diagnoses. To simply say that ‘therapy’ is just a short term business for ‘mental illness’ is hugely misleading.

    Thank you. This is what I was getting at.

  319. Christiane wrote:

    Hopefully, you were able to read the comment from Janna Chan who offered some good advice to you in a friendly way.

    Yes. Janna and I communicated back and forth several times. Maybe you didn’t see all the communication.

  320. Bridget wrote:

    One of my family members who needed help found a wonderful psychologist on the first try and met with them for over three years. My family member was also on meds for a season. I have never had a bad experience with someone in the mental health field, but as people (even some in the field) have testified to in this thread, it happens.

    That’s excellent, Bridget.

    Here’s the National Alliance on Mental Illness’ (N.A.M.I.) good resource on finding a mental health professional. I think we were all trying to articulate parts of this plan that N.A.M.I. articulated very well.

    http://www.nami.org/Find-Support/Living-with-a-Mental-Health-Condition/Finding-a-Mental-Health-Professional

  321. Lea wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    Also the term mental health or mental illness in not specific and ranges all the way from somebody who needs to talk to somebody a little to the other extreme of unmanageable loss of reality and long term hospitalization. What I have heard from one or more commenters here has been in regard to the more seriously difficult and long term diagnoses. To simply say that ‘therapy’ is just a short term business for ‘mental illness’ is hugely misleading.
    Thank you. This is what I was getting at.

    The National Alliance on Mental Illness (N.A.M.I.) addresses this point in their helpful article: http://www.nami.org/Find-Support/Living-with-a-Mental-Health-Condition/Finding-a-Mental-Health-Professional

  322. Velour wrote:

    Yes, we usually break ground here (California) on many laws.

    Both for the better and for the worse.
    (I’ve lived in SoCal since I was six months old and we’ve got some real boneheaded new laws out here.)

  323. Velour wrote:

    That’s why there are closed A.A. meetings, women only meetings, men only meetings, etc.
    I have many friends who have been saved by A.A. (women and men). Some people have had problems in meetings. The vast majority have not and have been protected by sponsors and others.

    Based on my family member’s behavior after he attended AA for years, and based on the research I did, which included many testimonies and reports by ex-AA members, I cannot recommend AA to anyone. It would be like telling someone who has anxiety or depression to seek out a Nouthetic Counselor.

    And 13th stepping (sexual assault under the guise of AA counseling) may not have happened to your friends, but it’s happened to other women or to their kids.

    Some women may go to mixed groups. Saying there are lady-only groups isn’t a fix-all.

    Exposing the Shocking Truth About “13th Stepping”

    http://www.recovery.org/exposing-the-shocking-truth-about-13th-stepping/

  324. OK. TIME OUT

    Quit talking to each other about the tone of the comments.

    NOW

    Don’t even reply to this.

    More later.

    GBTC

  325. IF anyone has an issue or problem with the tone of comments on this blog then send Dee, Deb, or me an email and WE will deal with it.

    DO NOT start commenting to each other about such things. Comments are for people to discuss issues that are relevant to the blog post. Any issues with HOW someone is making their point will be dealt with by one of us. In private if possible.

    And all decisions by the judges are just that, decisions by the judges. And on this subject WE are the judges.

    Period. End of discussion.

  326. NOW

    The discussion here gradually went off the rails and we missed it and didn’t stop it before it got out of hand. So there are now 45 comments that I have pulled from this thread that contain elements of personal attacks/commentary.[1] We do NOT have time to edit these with a scalpel to extract the useful parts from the personal parts. Sorry. Feel free if you want to put back up any comments relevant to the post.

    [1] Our policy is to NOT delete comments. I’ve had to break that policy for this situation and want everyone to know why the comments are now missing.

  327. @ Nancy2:
    So true. Kevin Giles writes about the heresy of the eternal subordination of the Son as promulgated by Grudem and others in his books The Trinity and Subordinationism, and Jesus and the Father. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is the co-eternal and co-equal Son, fully God and fully man, equal in authority and power with the Father. The desire to dominate which is clearly represented in the complementarian position diminish our Lord and are repugnant to me for this reason especially.

  328. Thanks to TWW and other sites, I am much more aware of what kind of books I am reading and which speaker I am listening to. I now make a point to do a quick Google search on the author before buying the books.

    For example recently my small group was dong a book in the bible. Our church recommended us to read a book from the series EXPOSITION. It is lead (mostly) by Dr. Daniel L. Akin.

    https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Dr.+Daniel+L.+Akin&search-alias=books&field-author=Dr.+Daniel+L.+Akin&sort=relevancerank

    I want to make it clear here that my church is actually a seeker sensitive church with no ties to Neo-Calvinists. But I don’t think my church even knew about the corruption that neo-Calvinists are bringing. They just read some quick reviews online and find a book that has good rating.

    Of course it goes without saying that the word EXPOSITION itself already rises red flags in my head. So a quick research on Daniel Akin shows that he is indeed a neo-Calvinist that is heavily supported by the other big names in this movement. His works includes “Pastoral Leadership for Manhood and Womanhood”, which is a highly offensive book against women.

    https://www.amazon.com/Pastoral-Leadership-Manhood-Womanhood-Grudem/dp/1581344198

    I have make my whole small group aware of this author and his disgusting bias against women. But we decided to carry on using this book. I said my piece, so we hope for the best.

    Now to be fair Daniel Akin was justone of the many author on this book, not the only one. (Others are Wayne Grudem, Dennis Rainey, R. Kent Hughes, CJ Mahaney(Of course!), Ken Sande, David Powlison, Paul David tripp, Edward T. Welch) So Daniel Akin might say “Hey I didn’t wrote that particular part! Someone else did!” But he put his name behind this book, meaning he supports these views.

    In one of the reviews (if you want to know the details):

    Then he gives his opinion that domestic violence is NOT Biblical grounds for divorce. He writes “I certainly recognize the need for the church to take serious measures to deal with abuse” and recommends “church discipline and even calling in civil authorities to protect the family.” But then he recommends pressuring the battered wife to stay in an abusive situation. He recommends telling her (pages 173-174) “you are probably aware of some things you have done to contribute to this situation as well…….maybe now is a good time to address your own attitudes and habits.” He even recommends using the children to pressure her into staying in the marriage by saying “what will you say to your daughter eighteen years from now when she asks ‘Mom your divorce threw my entire life upside down. Did you do it impulsively or did you really try to save your marriage?”

    It gets even worse on pages 175-176 when he recommends that to prevent divorce, Pastors should coach the husband to confess his faults to the wife. While that might sound helpful, the problem is that this opens the door for an abuser to pretend to change to manipulate the wife into staying. Ken writes “time after time when I have been with a couple as the husband makes such a confession I have sat and watched the color come back into the wife’s face…..she begins to realize that things might truly change.” Then he writes on page 183 of the importance of “guarding the flock from divorce.” What about guarding the flock from the wolves in sheep’s clothing? The Bible warns that true repentance is more than just saying words—-it involves making changes (Matthew 3:8).

    The author of chapter 9 needs to read chapter 14 in this book where they warn Pastors that (page 270) “the physically abusive are criminal as well as wicked….they are also highly deceptive.” (page 272) “Expect to encounter….deceit towards others. Violent people are often gifted seducers. They win people creating trust again in the very people they’ve mistreated and betrayed. They skillfully manipulate other people—the victim, the would-be helpers—into feeling guilty and responsible for what happened and for now making it better.” Chapter 14 recognizes what chapter 9 misses—that abusers can pull the wool over everyone by pretending to repent in order to pressure the wife into staying. Like they write on page 271 “If you want to help, don’t allow the abuser to twist truth into gross lies.”

    Yet Chapter 9 actually gives advice to Pastors that could trigger a lawsuit! On page 182 he warns Pastors that “church discipline can have major legal repercussions.” After making it clear that he believes domestic violence is NOT Biblical grounds for divorce he recommends that if any church members file for “unbiblical divorce” Pastors should proceed with “church discipline.” Connect the dots and you realize that he’s saying that if a church member is beating his wife and threatening to kill her and she tries to protect her children by leaving, then she should be put under “church discipline!” No wonder that by page 182, Ken is worried that this advice will result in lawsuits against pastors for “intentional infliction of emotional distress!” He writes two full pages advising the pastor on how to shield the church from liability, but where is the help for the victims?