"Better to sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunken Christian."- Herman Melville, Moby Dick link
(I was going to write one more post after this one but as I was writing, I realized how very important this post is and it got very, very long.)
Initial thoughts:
This post is not a screed against drinking alcohol. I believe that the Bible encourages drinking in moderation and Paul said it was good for the stomach. I also enjoy a good glass of wine. This post is about the abuse of alcohol.
I do believe that alcoholism is a disease but let me quickly clarify that I am not saying this gets the alcoholic off the hook. Some people appear to be more prone to alcohol abuse. However, I am not going to argue with those who claim it is simply a character defect. The treatment and the end result is the same. It is a long, hard road to sobriety.
A diabetic must take their insulin in order to survive their disease. We would not condone a diabetic stopping her insulin, driving a car and causing a wreck that killed people simply because she was sick of taking her insulin. We wouldn't say "She couldn't help it, she has a disease." Neither does the alcoholic receive a *get out of jail free* card when they drive drunk or develop alcoholic cirrhosis. Alcoholics need empathy as they walk their hard road to recovery but they are also responsible for personally pursuing their sobriety for the rest of their lives.
The treatment of alcoholism is tough and can seem, at times, to be rather raw as the alcoholic learns to realistically confront his problem.The practice of substance abuse medicine and substance abuse counseling is not for the faint of heart.
There are far too many Christians who believe that a quick prayer to Jesus will result in a healing. It doesn't work that way. An alcoholic is an alcoholic for the rest of his life. One slip could send them on a spiral downward and ruin 8 years of sobriety. It is unhelpful for naive Christians who say to *pray the alcoholism away.*
Perry Noble speaks, yet again.
The Church Leader website posted Perry Noble Addresses His Fall: “Four Areas Where I Was Wrong." He says he wrote this post as an update for many who have asked how he is doing.
He claimed to have learned much in the past week in four areas.
Noble's defined four problematic areas in his life.
1. "I chose isolation over community."
Isolation is where self-pity dominated my thinking, thus justifying my abuse of alcohol.
Isolation is where self-doubt dominated my emotions, causing me to believe I just could not carry the weight anymore, and alcohol was necessary for me to make it through another day.
2. "I chose alcohol over Lucretia and Charisse"
I was sick—deceived by sin, alcohol and myself. I justified this by saying I needed it to take the edge off, to help me relax, to help me deal with the pressure at home.
3. "I chose control over relationships."
I was “successful” at work, I wasn’t successful at home, so I chose to put more and more time into a place where I felt like I was in control rather than addressing the out of control area of my life.
4. "I chose silence over crying out for help."
I chose to remain silent, which propelled me with light speed toward the coping mechanism of alcohol abuse.
The following problems jumped out at me.
1. He appeared to say that his marriage woes contributed to his abuse of alcohol.
After a season of walking through these challenges, I became discouraged and, instead of asking for help, began to overmedicate on alcohol.
It is vital for the recovering alcoholic not to place blame for their abuse of alcohol on anything else but his compulsion to drink. There are many people who face challenges in their marriages. There are also many people who do not seek professional help for these problems. But not all of those people turn to the abuse of alcohol to deal with the issues.
This is an important point when it comes to other abusive behaviors. Some men blame their inattentive wives for their affairs. Those who are domestic abusers blame their spouses for being mean, not taking care of the house, getting pregnant, etc. Those abusers abuse due to issues such as control. The blame fully lies with the abuser, not any other person or problem.
Noble drank because he is an alcoholic, not because he had marriage issues.
2. Perry Noble never used the word "alcoholic" in his post and this is concerning.
Once again, I am drawing on my somewhat limited experience in working at an alcoholic hospital for a short time and growing up in a household in which my father became the chief of the medical staff at an alcoholic hospital. My mother's father was an alcoholic, my mother's brother died of alcoholism and my husband's father dealt with alcoholism until the day he died. This is both a personal and professional interest of mine.
I have read through his post several times. He never once mentioned that he believes he is an alcoholic. He used terms like *overmedicate on alcohol.* I wonder if he believes that he is an alcoholic. If so, why hasn't he yet used the term? By the time he wrote this, Noble had lost his job and his family life was in trouble. These are two important clues that Noble is an alcoholic.
Alcoholics are notorious liars. That is how they have survived for as long as they have with a serious drinking problem. They can also be quite humorous and engaging until they discover that you are not going to buy their con game.
Have you ever attended an AA meeting? When a person rises to speak, they start by saying "My name is Perry and I am an alcoholic." Do you know how hard it is to come to this moment? Every alcoholic tries to hide his problem in euphemisms or denial. Here are a few.
1. It was hard year and I over-indulged.
2. I only blacked out three time and I am sure it was due to the flu.
3. The breathalyzer was wrong. I know I wasn't drunk. My tire was low and it caused the car to wobble.
4. My wife left me because I lost my job and she was always a money-grubber.
5. I only drink heavily on weekends.
Let's look at what Perry Noble said about his drinking.
At first it was once or twice a week; however, over time it literally became something I “had to have” every evening.
It is important to note that he never told us exactly how much he was drinking nor of the escalation of that drinking. However, the big clue was "had to have" it every evening. I suspect that he eventually also had to have it every morning along with a mid day *pick me up* as well.
My guess is that many would be shocked by the amount he consumed. I certainly was when I did admission notes on alcoholics coming in for treatment. Using a few tricks of the trade, we would finally figure out the consumption pattern. Meeting people who drank a bottle of vodka or a case of beer each night was not unusual. Do you think I am exaggerating? Google it. Here is one article from the Washington Post which will help you decide if you drink too much.
The top 10 percent of American drinkers – 24 million adults over age 18 – consume, on average, 74 alcoholic drinks per week. That works out to a little more than four-and-a-half 750 ml bottles of Jack Daniels, 18 bottles of wine, or three 24-can cases of beer. In one week.
…there are a remarkable number of people who drink a couple of six packs a day, or a pint of whiskey."
3. How would Noble or you know if you are an alcoholic?
Here is a test from the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence.
Please visit that link for more information. There are many such tests out there. I think one of the best ways to determine if you are an alcoholic is to ask your friends, coworkers and family. Have they ever expressed any concern about your drinking?
4. Perry Noble is already looking at "what comes next" but he seems to be forgetting something. He needs to walk the walk.
I am a big fan of Alcoholics Anonymous. No, it is not a Christian organization but its tenets mesh easily with the Christian belief system. However, Noble does not say he was involved in a support group. He is sticking with a counselor who he has called his pastor. I truly hope he is being confronted on a regular basis by other alcoholics who have succeeded in the program.
They call this program the 12 Steps of AA. As somebody goes down this road, he/she must do the exceedingly hard job of dealing truthfully with their problem. Here are the steps.
- We admitted we were powerless over alcohol – that our lives had become unmanageable.
- Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
- Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
- Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
- Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
- Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
- Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
- Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
- Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
- Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
- Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Perry is in a good position to continue his road to sobriety if he wants to do so. His wife is a physician and I bet they have good insurance coverage. I would not be surprised if I were to learn that NewSpring helped pay for his rehab stay and for his counseling. In other words, the family will not starve if he doesn't get right back to work.
5. Dr James Duncan should receive a public apology directly from Perry Noble for overseeing one of the worst cases of known church abuse. I am dead serious.
Dr Duncan, who has written a number of posts for TWW, is a good and decent man. NewSpring Church, under the direction of an apparent alcoholic, embarked on a campaign to destroy this dear man and his family. If you have never read his story, you MUST do so. If you do not, you will miss why I, along with many others, view Perry Noble and his staff with disdain. I have been accused by some of these *Springers* for attacking their church. Until I hear about a major apology and an attempt to make things right, I will never believe that this is a decent church in any sense of the word.
Here is the link to the PDF of Holy Rage at the ‘Spring: How NewSpring Church leaders motivated and monitored a campaign to destroy a critic and his family. Please, please read this.
It is my hope that Perry Noble's behavior in this and other instances can be chalked up to a drunk who was unable to demonstrate love and kindness. If so, I hope that he will make it to steps 8 and 9 and do the right thing for Dr Duncan and others.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
5. Perry appears to believe that he is going to be healed.
This also concerns me. The apostle Paul was never healed of his thorn in his side. He learned to work with that thorn. What I had hoped to hear from Noble is that he has made strides towards maintaining his sobriety which will be a lifelong struggle. Most sober alcoholics say it this way. "I am an alcoholic and I have been sober for 60 days." It is a day to day struggle and those who do not realize this are in for a rude awakening.
6. Noble ended his missive by calling himself Pastor P.
It appears that Noble has not shed his persona of *pastor.* I wish he had ended it this way.
Please pray for me as I begin my long journey. I am an alcoholic.,
Perry
First?
@ Friend:
Yay!!!!
It strikes me that the highly public apology is one way to stay in the limelight.
I have greater respect for people who leave far more quietly.
I come from a family with too many alcoholics/addicts, so I don’t drink at all (nor do I look down on those who do enjoy alcohol in moderation). What concerns me about Perry N. is that I think he knows he has a problem, but until he hits bottom and can admit that he is hopeless without major divine intervention through working a program, I see no hope for him. Addicts/alcoholics in my family who have worked a program have been able to overcome their issues. The rest stay on the hamster wheel of addiction. I found help for myself in Al-Anon-how to love these people without trying to fix them or assume all responsibility for them. That’s when I finally got my own life back.
Good article Dee on a subject, like many other serious medical topics, that seems to be unaddressed in so many of our churches (especially NeoCalvinist churches/9 Marxist/John MacArthur-ite churches).
At my former church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, the senior pastor and the chairman of the elder board, ordered me into more than eight months of meetings to have “unity” with an older woman church member, a widow. They drew pictures on the blackboard, quoted Scriptures, discussed gossip and other topics.
They also did this with other church members.
The real issue – the widow is an alcoholic – they NEVER addressed. They instead went the incompetent, dangerous, unlicensed, unhelpful Nouthetic Counseling route. I have never seen anything more dumb and dangerous in my life than Nouthetic Counseling. Untrained, uneducated, unlicensed men run their mouthes about serious medical conditions that they have NO business giving ‘advice’ about and they blew it big time and got it wrong, wrong, wrong.
The alcoholic never got the care she needed, supervised by a licensed physician. She was harmed, her adult children were harmed, and church members were harmed.
Church members were even ordered to go to her to apologize to her for problems SHE had caused! That’s codependency and that’s enabling and it’s dead wrong to do.
i.e. “It’s all HER fault! She drove me to drink!”
One old pop psychology book on my shelves (Games People Play by Eric Berne) described synergistic mind games such as “a ‘Bitch and Nag’ married to a ‘Drunk and Proud of It’.” In that combination, his drinking gives her justification to bitch and nag and her bitching and nagging gives him justification to drink. Closed circle. “And they live unhappily ever after.”
We’ll know he hasn’t changed when he starts giving the “Jesus has forgiven me, so it’s all good now” excuse.
Over a year ago (before Noble was fired) on the Pajama Pages a “springer” had some words for Dr Duncan and other commenters– highlights:
“when you substantiate your Christian arogance with the numbers of new believers that Perry Noble and the Newspring Church people have both claimed and substantiated, your words may demonstrate more validity.
Until then, I continue to read your words as I pray for your souls and fear for your eternities. You are demonstrating the attitude of Pharisees, while tieing a millstone around your own necks.”
So Noble’s behavior was all good, ’cause he was saving lots of souls– with Duncan and friends heading to hell in a handbasket.
I suggest Perry read Brennan Manning’s books. Manning, a former priest in the RC church, was an alcoholic who struggled his whole life to maintain sobriety. There were several times he failed and fell back into his old habits. Manning was a brutally honest man who knew Christ as I would like to. His words were a balm to me when I walked away from my 9Marx church.
My prayer for Perry, and indeed for all of us, is that we find peace in Christ.
“In the name of prudence the terrified imposter would have us betray our identity and our mission, whatever it might be – standing with a friend in the harsh weather of life, solidarity with the oppressed at the cost of ridicule, refusal to be silent in the face of injustice, unswerving loyalty to a spouse, or any lonely call to duty on a wintry night. Other voices clamor, “Don’t make waves, say what everyone else is saying and do what they’re doing, tailor your conscience to fit this year’s fashion. When in Rome do as the Romans do. You don’t want to raise eyebrows and be dismissed as a kook. Settle in and settle down, You’d be overruled anyway.”
Anyone who has ever stood up for the truth of human dignity, no matter how disfigured, only to find previously supportive friends holding back, even remonstrating with you for your boldness, feels the loneliness of the poverty of uniqueness. This happens every day to those who choose to suffer for the absolute voice of conscience, even in what seem to be small matters. They find themselves standing alone. I have yet to meet the man or woman who enjoys such responsibility.
The measure of our depth-awareness of Christ’s present risenness is our capacity to stand up for the truth and sustain the disapproval of significant others. An increasing passion for the truth evokes a growing indifference to public opinion and to what people say or think. We can no longer drift with the crowd or echo the opinion of others. The inner voice, “Take courage. It is I. Do not be afraid,” assures that our security rests in having no security. When we stand on our own two feet and claim responsibility for our unique self, we are growing in personal autonomy, fortitude, and freedom from the bondage of human approval.”
-Brennan Manning, “Abba’s Child”, page 118-119
In a rather strange way in my 35 years of being a Chrisitan and begging God, in private of course, for forgiveness help etc. I have come away at times with one aspect of the evangelical religion I find ironic. You can be forgiven of many sins, restored, if you are in leadership or have some economic / apologetic value but the one sin that is not forgiven is to actually need Jesus, I mean to really truly desperately need Him. That sin will not be tolerated and it will not be forgiven from within the corporation.
Dave A A wrote:
Souls(TM) are the currency of Heaven, and MONEY TALKS.
P.S. They said the same about Mike Warnke, even after he was proven to be a total fraud. Accusing his accusers with “And How Many SOULS Have YOU Saved? Huh? Huh? Huh?”
@ brian:
brilliant deduction Brian.
Jesus said unless you become as a little child you can not inherit the kingdom of God.
And only humble people can cry out to Jesus and believe that He will hear and answer them.
I also have a family history of alcoholism, it ruined my childhood & alcohol misues was a fctor in my marriage failing. If Perry Noble is an alcoholic I hope & pray he goes to get help. My Dad got off alcohol for 20 ish years, & whilst it was a factor in his early death at 60 from liver complications from bowel cancer, he had a whole second chance at life, second wife & family, second law career etc.
I choose not to drink & I htink it must be horrific to be adddicted.
I suppose that it does matter whether PN meets the criteria for a diagnosis of alcoholism, but either way his pattern of drinking is nothing but trouble. The statement is made “I am not an alcoholic” to excuse an unhealthy drinking pattern way too often.
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/features/12-health-risks-of-chronic-heavy-drinking
Linn wrote:
Great comment.
Paul D. wrote:
He is starting down this road. From the article
“As I look back on making this foolish exchange, waves of self-condemnation crash into my soul. I know I’ve been forgiven for the sin, but I must now deal with the consequences.”
Dave A A wrote:
The Springers are tough people with an incredible bent towards self righteousness.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Wow! Thank you for that quote.
brian wrote:
Good comment.
@ Beakerj:
Thank you for your comment.
okrapod wrote:
It is amazing to me the alcoholics who endeavor never to admit they are an alcoholic. Saying the words seems to be the turning point for many.
I find it strange that he still calls himself Pastor P., as if Pastor is his new first name. Or maybe it’s that he’s still hiding behind his public persona, unable to be just Perry. There might be some insecurity hiding behind the persona, as if he’s deriving his worth from his title and his old job.
Finding your identity in your work is a typical guy thing in the US. I should know.
With the history of these pastor dudes, I worry that there is something toxic about the job itself. A big part of it is that people have such high expectations for the figurehead pastor/CEO that it drives them to isolation, which allows all sorts of bad things to fester and grow, like loneliness and depression, and the coping mechanisms that go along with it.
Perry probably has some tendencies toward alcoholism, as I probably do [which is mostly why I don’t drink alcohol]. So, although he had the disease, it seems that the stress of the job allowed it to grow. And by holding on to the to title of “pastor,” he’s holding on to the contributing factor that has caused chaos in his life and family.
He needs to be just Perry. And Perry needs to make some restitution.
“Noble ended his missive by calling himself Pastor P.”
The ex-pastor should have began his article with “My name is Perry.” He was correct to close it however with “Being the pastor of NewSpring Church WAS one of the greatest privileges of my life.” He forfeited his position as pastor when he began to walk contrary to that calling. He just needs to disappear from the scene and get some help. If/when he admits he is an alcoholic and repents of making that choice, Christians should certainly forgive him … but restore him to ministry?
GSD wrote:
He didn’t admit to “over-medicaring” until he was called out on it, lost his social position, and the news went public. So, is he working on changing himself, or is he just working on regaining his social status?
@ dee:
If you could just ignore the spelling mistakes. I have a dental abscess & it huuurrrtttsss.
I don’t. I used to see the same thing at the hospital I worked for. It blew me away, how much these people could drink!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I have to say, without additional details, I don’t know if he’s using the drinking to excuse whatever issues he has or is a straight up alcoholic. I am so skeptical of people who mess up and then go to ‘rehab’ as if that fixes their selfishness and mistakes.
It does sound like he should stop drinking alcohol. And get a real therapist.
“The top 10 percent of American drinkers – 24 million adults over age 18 – consume, on average, 74 alcoholic drinks per week. That works out to a little more than four-and-a-half 750 ml bottles of Jack Daniels, 18 bottles of wine, or three 24-can cases of beer. In one week.”
Let’s see – John Calvin’s annual salary included 250 gallons of wine. So would John Calvin be considered an alcoholic by the above statistics?
Beakerj wrote:
I’m a drunk who has been sober for 20 years. We drunks drink for one thing and one thing only. Oblivion. With the help of God as I understand him, I’m sober today.
@ Ken G.:
Possibly. That equals roughly 2/3s of a gallon per day. I guess we’d have to know how much of it he drank himself or shared it generously. He was reported to be a person with depression. Drinking and depression often co-exist.
Muff Potter wrote:
Thankful, Muff! Well done!
Beakerj wrote:
Are you taking antibiotic medication? Have you seen a dentist for a prescription? Important to get on medication immediately if you have an abscessed tooth.
Prayers for your recovery.
Ken G. wrote:
Well, I’m sure “wine” just meant “grape juice”. You know, like in the Bible where it says Jesus water into wine, but what it really, truly meant was grape juice? Just ask any Southern Baptist!
brian wrote:
even the Lord’s Prayer incorporates the phrase ‘and forgive US’
my point is that IF you are in a Church that is recognizably related to the Body of Christ, you will find a congregation that will seek God’s forgiveness IN UNISON ….
from an ancient prayer: “Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us.”
Just my observations from a guy that is not an alcoholic but my boss and a parent that is.
When I see Mr. Noble’s bullet points on why, it makes me kind of cringe. To me I don’t care “why”, it matters to me “what”. I mean… what am I , what I am doing, what have I’ve done.
MUFF SAID IT RIGHT!
All those bullet points are just chapters in a book that is coming soon.
I never have liked the guy but if he faded off into the sunset and we never heard from him. I mean NEVER heard from him. And he showed up three years latter sober and gets involved somewhere without the notion of being back in the saddle and works his way back to a pastorate… I would have respect for the guy.
Sumpt’n is telling me other wise and I’m not betting on it.
A.Stacy wrote:
That’s always the case with these guys, though I would up the time to five or ten years after working in some charity for free doing grunt work. I mean, Mark Driscoll kept selling stuff, and turned up in another city to start another church in just over a year without any repentance shown to the Mars Hill survivors.
Is there one megapastor who has gone down in flames of their own making that hasn’t resurfaced in less than two years to do the same thing again?
A.Stacy wrote:
Presumably he has 200 Grand for ResultSource’s juicing fee.
Bridget wrote:
And kidney stones, which are one of the most painful medical conditions known.
In a era when alcohol was the only available painkiller.
GSD wrote:
Not just that, but his old job was ManaGAWD with a Mega, one of the Spiritually Elite.
The title alone elevates his old job to Cosmic Importance — GOD’s Shadow upon the Earth.
Not even changing his name to Doctor (as in Honorary Doctorate) could approach that.
dee wrote:
AKA The Comeback Trail.
A.Stacy wrote:
Yep. These guys have learned how to work the gullible masses. Book sales and speaking fees are the way to go after they re-invent themselves! On another TWW post, Dustin Boles is making an unrepentant comeback from sexual harassment that cost him his ministry … this time around, he will make his fortune as as skeptic of the faith he once proclaimed! Mark Driscoll’s unrepentant comeback is taking the shape of charismatic Calvinism. Noble’s unrepentant comeback will play the booze to schmooze route for those gullible enough to buy it. I sincerely hope all of these guys genuinely repent, but none should return to ministry after betraying the trust of their followers who are now disillusioned.
I agree with Dee, when he admits and makes restitution to James Duncan (and I doubt Duncan is the only one whose life he damaged), then I will begin to think he may really be serious about change.
It hasn’t been very long and I wonder if, at this point, he’s just parroting what he’s being told. It will take a lot more time to see how it shakes out.
Sometimes I’ve wondered if he has other issues besides alcohol, just because at times his facial expressions and behavior have suggested manic to me. But, either way, he needs to take responsibility for his behavior and make it right. And he needs to take responsibility for all of the minions who watch and imitate what he does.
I just saw a report earlier today that alcohol is even worse for women than it is for men. It does more physical damage to women than to men.
Dangerous Consequences for Women Who Buy the Myth ‘Alcohol Is Safe’
http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2016/october/dangerous-consequences-for-women-who-buy-the-myth-alcohol-is-safe
Snippets:
– – – – – – – – –
“Many people think that alcoholism is a moral weakness or even a sin. That’s kind of left over from decades worth of ignorance about what was going on in our brain,” Dr. Harold Urschel, chief medical strategist at Enterhealth Rehabilitation Centers, said. “We used to think the same about Parkinson’s or strokes, we didn’t know what was going on in the brain.”
….When someone consistently drinks large amounts of alcohol it injures the brain, specifically the limbic system, or the brain’s control center.
….Another misunderstood fact about alcoholism: females can become addicted more easily than their male counterparts.
When a female drinks, her body absorbs 50 percent more alcohol per drink than a male. Because of this, Urschel says female alcoholics face more medical problems.
“(Females) actually have more heart problems than men, they have osteoporosis, they have more liver issues, they have more immune system problems, they have more nerve problems,” Urschel said.
siteseer wrote:
is possible the alcoholic abuse was ‘self-medication’ for something he realized he couldn’t deal with that was ‘worse’, but he sure made the wrong choice of ‘medication’, yes, and his troubles compounded
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Last I checked, Jesus saves, not us…
OP:
I don’t want to derail the thread, but this bugs me. And it’s not just about alcoholism.
Most stories I see on Christian TV or sites feature these instant miracle deliverance stories, where the person says the very instant they accepted Jesus as Savior, or prayed to God, they were cured right then and there (of drug addiction, cancer, alcohol addiction, what have you).
But I know I’ve prayed for years for this that and the other and God hasn’t done squat for me. My mother died of cancer, and you better believe she was praying for a healing, and I was praying for her. I have friends who have addictions, and God hasn’t healed them, either.
I just do not see too many Christians, especially well known tele-evangelists, Christian shows and blogs, address the face that there are a lot of people who do not get a healing or an instant answer from God.
Some people are kept in pain or their trial for many years before it’s over, or they never, ever get delivered from whatever their problem or affliction is.
Maybe if the Christian shows stopped glamorizing the instant success stories, it wouldn’t make them seem so common?
And Christians could have a more realistic view of over-coming alcoholism (or whatever they are dealing with, it could be something else).
Daisy wrote:
I wonder if a male being treated for advanced prostate cancer with estrogen to inhibit androgen production (testosterone) would be also vulnerable to a greater reaction to intake of alcohol? Would age be a factor? I wonder if any studies have been done?
siteseer wrote:
If he doesn’t take any action, it’s just Spin Spin Spin Spin Spin.
“You have a saying: ‘Knowledge is a three-edged sword.’
We also have a saying: ‘PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!'”
— Babylon-5
but, they would not be able to “sale the product”, if there is not immediate transformation… you mean I have to work at, struggle with this ### for the rest of my life? No way will I buy your “product”….
Much of evangelical christiainity has been reduced to “selling the product”
Daisy wrote:
siteseer wrote:
I’m not a shrink, but we can do a little detective work from the available documents (keeping in mind that these may not be 100% true).
Unspecified marriage problems seem to have preceded the drinking problems. Others may detect more.
From Newspring’s official statement:
“Perry’s posture towards his marriage, increased reliance on alcohol and other behaviors, were of continual concern.”
In Perry’s own official statement it’s first:
“However, in my obsession to do everything possible to reach 100,000 and beyond – it has come at a personal cost in my own life and created a strain on my marriage.”
Then he mentions the alcohol.
Later, after allaying fears of tchananagans with the secretary, offering plate, or Ashley Madison, he assures the flock of “absolutely no domestic abuse”.
He now elaborates in his 4 extremely unwise decisions.
1: I was a hypocrite—I preached, “You can’t do life alone,” and then went out and lived the opposite. (it is not good for man to be alone, said someone once)
2: Lucretia and I, like so many couples, have faced challenges in our marriage for many years. After a season of walking through these challenges, I became discouraged and, instead of asking for help, began to overmedicate on alcohol.
(So marriage “challenges” came first, and after that the discouragement )
3: I was “successful” at work, I wasn’t successful at home, so I chose to put more and more time into a place where I felt like I was in control rather than addressing the out of control area of my life. (He felt out of control at home, and even on vacation, where he busied himself with emails and ignoring his family)
4: (He was propelled toward the coping mechanism of alcohol abuse by remaining silent when he was deeply hurting, in a bad place, and living through hell on earth)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I think you’re on to something here. At least he didn’t overtly come out and publish something TT like, “I just came home from a trip, minding my own business, and out popped this no-good, two-timin’ calf!”
Dave A A wrote:
Suspect.
Like whats his face’s ‘problems with women but not adultery’.
You don’t mention this stuff usually unless it’s floating around. I guess maybe there could have been rumors.
Dave A A wrote:
Also, re the marriage. Did he need to be asking for help, or did he need to actually be DOING SOMETHING to make his marriage work better? Who was supposed to be ‘helping’ make that work?
Unless he’s talking about being a workaholic or something, which it kind of sounds like he says later.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, you’ve brought up an issue that makes me very perplexed.
I struggled with this very early in my Christian life because, like you, my own experiences and observations were at odds with what I was hearing in church. I found a book called “Healing: A Doctor in Search of a Miracle,” by William Nolen, that really helped me. Dr. Nolen tried very hard to find someone with a bona fide healing and could not. He actually found some very sad stories, like a woman with spine cancer who thought she was healed at a Kathryn Kuhlman meeting (anyone remember her?) who actually caused her spine to collapse by running across the stage without her brace. She had at least been mobile before that, but she was bedridden and died soon afterwards. That part of the story was never known to all those who thought they saw a “healing.” It took someone getting this woman’s name and seeking her out to find out what really happened. The book is very good reading, he is honest and fair, and the principles are still the same even though time has changed the names involved.
I am a skeptical person by nature and this puts me at odds with most believers. Most Christians I’ve known have a very strong need to believe that miracles happen as a matter of course and they will overlook the most obvious falsehoods to hang onto that belief. It’s a hard subject to talk about honestly without feeling you are going to punch holes in someone’s faith and I don’t have any desire to do that, so I usually just stay quiet. But on the other hand, what about the faith of all those people who are made to feel like they are the only ones God is not listening to, the only ones God won’t help?
I haven’t seen there to be any difference in the rates of illness, accidents, survival, etc, between Christians and non-Christians, other than the expected benefits of living a cleaner or safer lifestyle. Unexpected healings can and do happen to people whether they be Christians or non-Christians. Illness, death and tragedy strike Christians and non-Christians, as well. We have the assurance that Christ is with us through all we go through and that there is a life ahead for us where there are no more tears, no more dying, no more pain.
I do thank God for healing that does happen and for the miracles of modern medicine. Maybe it is more a matter of knowing who to thank when things are good than of trying to receive special treatment?
Sorry, I didn’t mean to derail this thread but I do agree with Daisy that unrealistic expectations set people up for failure.
‘Thy Will be done’ is a part of prayer where sometimes we ask and the answer comes ‘no’ but since we cannot see that far ahead, maybe we should be trusting in the interim time
A story:
“Rabbi Moshe took a trip to a strange land. He took a donkey, a rooster, and a lamp. Since he was a Jew, he was refused hospitality in the village inns, so he decided to sleep in the woods.
He lit his lamp to study the holy books before going to sleep, but a fierce wind came up, knocking over the lamp and breaking it. The rabbi decided to turn in, saying, “All that God does, he does well.” During the night some wild animals came along and drove away the rooster and thieves stole the donkey. Moshe wake up, saw the loss, but still proclaimed easily, “All that God does, he does well.”
The rabbi then went back to the village where he was refused lodging, only to learn that enemy soldiers had invaded it during the night and killed all the inhabitants. He also learned that these soldiers had traveled through the same part of the woods where he lay asleep. Had his lamp not been broken he would have been discovered. Had not the rooster been chased, it would have crowed, giving him away. Had not the donkey been stolen, it would have brayed. So once more Rabbi Moshe declared, “All that God does, he does well!”
I will put another story on ‘Discussion page’ that might help some people’s struggles with prayer and with God’s response.
siteseer wrote:
This is how I tend to think of it.
@ Christiane:
Thanks, I am, I’ve been taking amoxicillin for about 56 hours. I’ll ring the dentist again tomorrow if the pain doesn’t start receding. What a ridiculously painful thing. Thanks for the prayers, I’ve only just got back to work -which I love- after this spring/summers brushes with multiple viruses & depression. I just want to wooooooork. As well as need to.
@ Beakerj:
I hope you are returning to your dentist soon to be checked in any case …. sometimes there is need for further treatment
Prayers!
Muff Potter wrote:
I’m so thankful for this Muff. My Dad got off alcohol via AA & died in the faith. It really was miraculous that he could quit drinking. Not soon enough to prevent terrible damage, especially in condemning my Mum to a life of hard labour as a single parent. She forgave him before she died, which she told me she thought she never would – another miracle.
Alcohol sucks.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yep. It was the same in the movement I left. If you could convert a lot of people, a lot of the things you did could be overlooked.
Tina wrote:
Converting to a movement vs. converting to Christ? I fear that many folks are being attracted to charismatic leaders and teachings that tickle the ears in movements of men rather than a move of God. Many of the mega-churches fit this bill, including New Calvinism. Church crowds are not necessarily congregations of the Lord.
Max wrote:
This particular leader is named Thomas “Kip” McKean. Eventually his non-denomination had to throw the rascal out, despite the thousands of souls he was saving. No problem for him, though– he simply started a new non-denomination and claims the original one is not really “SoldOut”.
@ Ken G.:
To be fair in an aconomy that still had barter like elements he wouldn’t have drunk the lot.
God seems to have His own ideas about the meaning of “converting people.”
“He also told them a parable: “Can one blind lead another blind one? Will they not both fall into a pit?”
A disciple is not above one’s teacher, but everyone, when fully taught, will be like one’s teacher.” ~~ Luke 6:39 – 40.
I personally have zero desire to grow up to be like P.N. or M.D. or any “leader” failing to “walk the walk.”
Why “follow” anyone who, in reality, only gets in the way of my growing into the likeness of Christ, our One True Teacher. (Matthew 23:9: “But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one Teacher and you are all family (brethren) ).
Also, a “pastor” who has failed to grow the women disciples along with the men has truly failed in light of Jesus’ expressed expectation.
@ Lea:
Really good questions!
I have NEVER been in a meeting when someone stood up and said, “hi, my name is _____________ and I over-medicate with alcohol.” If losing the 4th largest church in America isn’t bottom, he’s got some really tough times coming…
siteseer wrote:
In all honesty, I haven’t seen this. I have seen many conservative Christians refuse to get help for serious problems from licensed professional outsiders and special support groups, harming themselves, their family, friends, church members, and the church’s witness.
I learned something today. You can get drunk on hand sanitizer.
I was reading an article in the New York Times with accounts from former banking-side employees of my evil, too big to fail employer. In the first account, the woman talked about how she was having a panic attack over the oppressive sales goals, so she took the bottle of hand sanitizer off her desk, went into the bathroom and drank a bit and it took the edge off. She continued to do that over a year, and over that time she was drinking a bottle of hand sanitizer a day. She finally had to go to rehab.
It had never occurred to me to drink hand sanitizer. I did some research and found it has a lot of alcohol in it by content, but it can be damaging if it’s not the right kind of alcohol (ethyl alcohol). It can also poison you if the ethyl alcohol is denatured. Also, even if you get the right kind of alcohol and it’s not denatured, the scents put in these hand sanitizers can also make you sick, because they’re usually petroleum based. But again, it would have never occurred to me to drink hand sanitizer in the first place! I am so naive in some ways.
And yes, the last five-plus weeks have been simply awful work-wise. My job is fine, what I do (investigating technical system failures) is fine, but just the whole environment, where there were all these shenanigans occurring over on the banking side, that’s not fine. I’ve worked for the bank 18 years, and it’s never been like this before. 🙁 But I’m not going to drink hand sanitizer!
Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
I had known about that for years. And there’s a few other products that people use to get drunk on (not alcoholic beverages).
Dee… excellent take on this topic and Perry. You are right on with this topic. Timely topic. The church hasn’t faced up to that there are worms in the woodwork (in the church and in our society). Two couples at small church I attend each have a son addicted to heroin. One son just died of an overdose. Pills… how many Christians do you know who are addicted to pain killers. Alcohol… these are topics that are not discussed in the church except that “Jesus drank wine” said the alcoholic ministers wife. And if I hear one more say how they are using pseudomedical marijuana for their ingrown toenail or bipolar disorder I think I will shout “B.S.” or as Paul said”camel dung”.
Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
I read in the papers – this was probably back in the 1990s – that some famous lady (I think she was married to a politician) was an alcoholic.
She was so desperate for a drink, but there was no alcohol at her home, so she drank some rubbing alcohol.
@ Daisy:
I only meant to copied a portion of Dee Holmes (fka mirele)’s post, so I don’t know why my post copied her entire one.
That is weird and was not my intent. I don’t know what happened. I usually try to only quote a very relevant part of a post, not the whole thing.
Sorry about that.
Off-topic.
Uncle Dad (aka Wayne) who comments here as many of you know his niece Valerie was killed
in Maine by her husband. Ashleigh Banfield is covering this sad case on Primetime Justice.
https://www.facebook.com/AshleighBanfield/videos/10154558956969757/
Valerie’s parents in South Carolina reported her missing to Maine police. They recently had a funeral in South Carolina for their beloved daughter.
So sad.
@ Dee Holmes (fka mirele):
People will do a lot of dangerous things to take the edge off or get high. You usually hear about that sort of stuff more with kids, but alcohol is expensive maybe that’s why. Humans are creative beings, we will do all sorts of things to numb ourselves.
@ Beakerj:
OWWWW!
@ Velour:
This is awful.
@ Velour:
Velour-I would really like to talk to you about a proposal. Can you send me a number and time?
Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
At the alcoholic hospital, an elderly woman, in denial, used to order and drink large amounts of vanilla extract. The only good thing about it is that when she got sick during withdrawal, things smelled pretty good.
Another man drank large amounts of mouthwash with a high concentration of alcohol. This hurt his liver and kidneys. Even worse, is antifreeze.
So many alcoholics want to deny they have a problem and look for alternatives even though it makes no sense.
@ Ray:
Agreed!
@ Lea:
I think this is all an excuse for his alcohol addiction. Also, I wonder if he uses other medication for depression, etc. This can make thing even worse. The DT’s of withdrawal from alcohol are bad enough. Add a few prescription type meds and its awful.
dee wrote:
Maybe. I don’t know. The weird way they talked about his marital issues makes me suspicious.
dee wrote:
I never heard that one!! I do have a friend who makes homemade vanilla with alcohol. I am attempting to make homemade perfume, which is made with vodka apparently.
@ Ken G.:
I do know that in those day, water was loaded with bacteria due to animals, etc. Water treatment plants didn’t exist. It was common to drink wine cut with water as a means of preventing sickness. So, I cannot tell you one way or the other if he was an alcoholic.
dee wrote:
Yes.
Kitty Dukakis, “Shock: The Healing Power of Electroconvulsive Therapy”:
https://books.google.com/books?id=WygfFfFnVCkC&pg=PT38
“Next time I hit bottom I steered clear of rubbing alcohol, opting instead for mouthwash, aftershave, and, of all things, nail polish remover. I didn’t take enough of anything for it to show up in my urine test. The time after that I rifled through the house checking every container for alcohol. The vanilla extract had some but not enough. The last thing I swallowed was hair spray. I pulled off the spray nozzle and began gulping. Not knowing what to do this time, Michael summoned my sister and told her to bring a bottle. Anything, even liquor, was safer than hair spray and rubbing alcohol. Jinny was as distraught as Michael. After she left I began to drink. When I awoke the next morning, I started again—drink after drink after drink. This time I did not unplug the phone, and later that day Michael called from the State House. I don’t remember the call; it was my first complete blackout. He came home and yet again found me passed out in my own vomit.”
Jerome wrote:
This sounds like something out of the Russian Army, where they even drink brake fluid, jet fuel, and shoe polish for the alcohol. (Even in the American Army, drinking mouthwash for the alcohol — like “Jake” during Prohibition — is an old barracks rat trick.)
Also reminded me of something I heard in a bio on Ed Wood (“Plan Nine from Outer Space”). It was mentioned in passing that near the end of his life Bela Lugosi would actually drink formaldehyde as he was so far gone alcohol no longer had any effect.
And I thought nail polish remover was ACETONE-based, not Alcohol-based.
dee wrote:
My mother told me her Italian-immigrant family had a homebrew called “women’s wine”, fermented to only 1-2% alcohol — just enough to preserve it.
To this day, one way to purify water is the “Winston Churchill Cocktail”, where you first pour about a quarter-inch/half a centimeter of hard liquor into a medium-to-large glass, fill the rest with the suspect water, and wait a few minutes for the alcohol to take out anything biological. Churchill got into the habit of drinking that when he was a young war correspondent on the South African Veldt.
And French Army canteens are more likely to be filled with watered-down wine than water.
Beakerj wrote:
Only for those who are predisposed to its worst ill effects. Mrs. Muff enjoys a fine Merlot with her steaks and she revels in its health benefits to her chemical signature and system. Her blood panels prove it from what they were prior to her moderate intake of deep-red wine.
But yeah, you’re right, it really does suck for those of us to whom it is a subtle and deadly poison.
Muff Potter wrote:
poison or medicine…often is in the dosage, right?
Velour wrote:
Like Ether, which was real popular in rural Ireland and Poland up until a century ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ether_addiction
Before that (early Victorian times) “Ether Frolics” were a fashionable high-society soiree — except Highborn Milords and Miladies would fashionably SNORT the ether; drinking it was for Lowborn commoners. (Then some high-society doctors at these frolics noticed that nobody felt pain when they were banged up…)
Lea wrote:
I believe I did say moderate?
@ Muff Potter:
Yes, I was agreeing with you.
Vanilla extract! In the sixties and seventies I grew up with a housekeeper who would take Tablespoons of it during the day. I never questioned it, but now? I think it took the edge off her difficult life circumstances. I could never judge this as she was the main wage earner in her family, a black woman with limited education in the south. What do you do when you leave your own children each week to spend the week taking care of someone else’s white kids? Oh yeah, in return for working as a live-in during the week, she made a princely sum of $25.00 a week!
On the other hand, Noble seems to be a King Baby and bully. Just my opinion!
This is pedantic, but certainly Jesus could heal someone voila, in a moment, from anything, including alcoholism. But I understand where you’re coming from, the question is whether that’s normative or anything we have some inherent right to obtain just by saying a prayer, and of course it’s not. One of the reasons the biblical stories (with the blind seeing and the lame walking and the demon-possessed suddenly becoming of right mind) are still discussed and debated 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 years later is because they were so extraordinary. Problem is with Christians who want easy, pat answers to everything because they’re immature, entitled, selfish, then blame the Lord or the person suffering from an affliction when they don’t immediately get that instant turnaround victory that’s good for a tear-jerking story and fills the donation plates. Life is usually more mundane: struggling through, gradually seeing more and more of that victory which will only come when we’re dead and gone.
Law Prof wrote:
not sure that ‘life’ is ever ‘mundane’ anymore
I think we have often failed to see the mystery of the ‘unseen’ that is at work in the ‘seen’ portion of God’s Creation, and we don’t recognize the sacredness that is ‘separate’ from the material world, but still nurtures it tenderly
we have glimpses of this in sacred Scripture:
“… in Him all things hold together ”
we have lost touch with the closeness of blessing that in Judaism helps people to know to give thanks to God even for every breath they take
we take too much for ‘granted’, and we are not thankful
even to be is blessing say the rabbis, but we don’t understand this truth, always wanting the sudden, the entertaining, the wondrous . . . . and ignoring the wonder that is ever before us in its simplicity ….. children know that wonder, but we have lost sight of it and we suffer for it
Christiane wrote:
The rabbis would say “dayenu”, that is, “it’s enough” or “it would’ve been sufficient”, something like that; we say it several times at every Passover seder. Of course you’re right, I have no idea how many times one of our children has been saved by an angel given charge concerning them and of course, our very existence is because Jesus made everything including the notion that there could be existence. We want flash because an adulterous generation looks for a sign.
In Other News
Though this may not be well-known furth of the UK, today marks the 50th anniversary of the Aberfan Disaster in south Wales.
On 21st October 1966, a huge spoil heap from a local coal mine collapsed following heavy rain and surged down the hillside onto the adjacent village of Aberfan, burying a number of houses as well as the local primary school. 144 people died, 116 of them children. Negligence and official intransigence had contributed greatly to the tragedy and the scandal was given even more poignancy by the fact that, had the landslide occurred just a few minutes earlier, or a few hours later, the school would have been empty and the death toll less.
In Memoriam
Aberfan
Dave A A wrote:
Two observations:
1). There will be some shocked faces on that great/terrible day (depending on your perspective) when some leaders and celebrities will say “Lord, did I not do this and that and the other in your name?” and will be told “Go away, I never knew you.”
2). Cult-following scolds never win spelling bees.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Hi NICK
I’m old enough to remember Life magazine having photos of the disaster in Aberfan. The loss of life was especially horrific because of the number of children. Thanks for remembering them and sharing that remembrance.
NICK, I found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVsxVo26AoU
About asking for divine intervention including a ‘miracle’:
In my previous job I do believe I saw people who wanted a miracle because they were in the immediate midst of some very real tragedy. Who am I to have said to them, cheer up and be content to see God in the fact that the crape myrtles are in bloom because wanting a miracle to save the life of your loved one is a sure sign that you are separated from God in some way.
I believe it is written that you have not because you ask not, you ask and have not because you ask amiss… For me, I plan to ask, regardless of the results of that asking. I do not plan to watch the awful while standing there and not even asking lest someone think me a fanatic or a fool.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Such a sad story. It makes me think of the Johnstown Flood of 1889, caused by poor maintenance of a dam and a series of failures even to notify the town of the dam’s imminent collapse. Death toll was over 2,200.
To link to the topic, our bodies are temples and they need proper care. When we fail to heed the warnings of our own thoughts, and then bully others who try to intervene, the damage spreads well beyond ourselves.
Law Prof wrote:
Problem is, they’ve been immersed in a bubble where “easy, pat answers” and “that instant turnaround victory good for a tear-jerking story” IS the only thing Expected and Permitted. Everybody else has such a TESTIMONY except them.
This from our pastor’s weekly e-mail:
“Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is objectively the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Let’s not bet on ourselves to know the Truth. Let’s find it in Him.”
I like this; just thought you all might like it also.
okrapod wrote:
I do, of course, agree with you. When my husband was diagnosed with cancer and since then, of course I ask, and I thank God for every day he grants us to still be together. We believe that modern medical treatment is a blessing from God and are thankful for it. My husband’s mother died young from the same type of cancer (in spite of all of our heartfelt prayers); there were no good treatments back then.
I guess the tone that Daisy and I picked up on was the expectation of being miraculously healed. Maybe it comes out of the word/faith thing where you have to believe you’ll be healed in order to be healed? Then that gets into playing mind games with yourself -you have to be sure you will be healed in order to be healed so you act like you WILL be healed- that puts God in kind of a subordinate role to the person’s faith… I don’t know. There is always mystery and we always ask in case God might grant our hope. But when he does not, no temptation has overtaken us but such as is common to man.
And then, I think, if God answered all of our prayers, we Christians would never get sick or die and it would change all the dynamics of life itself. People would become Christians just for the benefits.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Heart wrenching.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Hi Nick,
Deepest condolences to all of those who lost loved ones and friends in this tragedy. I saw it earlier in my Twitter feed and Facebook when I awoke early this morning and I prayed for everyone there.
Regards,
Velour, across The Pond (and a rock) in California
okrapod wrote:
Not saying we shouldn’t ask, not saying we shouldn’t believe that miracles can happen–because of course, the Lord in fact can do anything. But I also understand that while faith in Jesus can move mountains and that He can heal all sickness, including alcoholism, and give us great health, that no one in world history ever died of great health, and that everyone has died or will die, including you and me.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yep, for many the System and the Pastor and the Great Testimony are the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You go questioning anything pastor says or does, you don’t stand up and shoot the hands up and squeal like a preteen at a Justin Bieber concert when one is told on Sunday morning, if you don’t have a good testimony to some grand miracle yourself, if you’re just one of those types who loves Jesus and wants to serve others and that’s all, well there must be something wrong with your faith and deep down something wrong with YOU.
okrapod wrote:
Love it – amein v’amein. Thank you, okrapod.
chronic pain has been a constant issue with me, it usually runs about a 7 on a scale from 1-10 with the neuropathy pain which has been bad enough to make me black out. I think the thing that made me drink for some time was that, it made the pain not matter it did not take it away. What it did do was make it easier to not ask for help which was seen as a vile filthy disgusting sin for people not in leadership. That was another reason to drink to kill the guilt feeling of being human. I mean we were preached at that the fact our very cells are imperfect and divide and are so totally corrupted that even that was an affront to a Holy God. You literally did not breath good enough for God, yes people think that way.
I quit cold turkey because of the cost of alcohol and the medical tests that gave me a brutal warning. I did go to AA and they were very helpful but I could not take the prayer thing, I still get a bit ill when people pray for me because of past issues. It is better I no longer get sick and vomit because I am worried so much because of all the guilt trips about needing prayer, asking for help, leaning on people, having expectations, thinking I was actually part of a spiritual family etc. I Know for a fact I am not the only one that feels that way to some degree. I may have been a bit more pronounced on my part due to some personality issues I needed to deal with. Thank God I am past all that. I have decided to never drink again and stay away from places where drinking take place ie parties etc. I dont think drinking is wrong for others. I know I need to just say no and walk away. I have never felt better in my life to be honest.
It is so important to not let the internal dialog corrode your spirit, I know I struggle with that. The internal tapes can play over and over and because we are so use to it they can actually “feel safe” like we are in “control”. That can be very dangerous. I hope Mr. Noble stays on the path of sobriety. Thank you for this dialog it helps may the peace of the Lord be with you all.
Law Prof wrote:
Well, I just caught myself before I did do something really foolish. Since my comment said nothing remotely about any potential to avoid ultimate death and thereby negate the scripture in that it is appointed unto man once to die, which would be absurd, I almost accused you of argumentum ad absurbum. But then I realized that Jesus himself prayed for the impossible as in if it be possible let this cup pass from me, so I suppose that praying for the impossible might be understandable depending on the circumstances. I am saying that he prayed for the impossible because he had already told his disciples that he had to die and how and when. And, like Jesus one would accept the ‘no’ answer, if that is how it worked, while all the while there is no indication that Jesus did anything wrong by that prayer, regardless of the fact that he had already said what the outcome would be. Perhaps praying for the impossible has its uses.
@ brian
Shalom to you too, brian. Pain is a terrible thing to deal with. I get it. Those who don’t experience chronic pain year after year often find it difficult to understand.
May God’s very best always be yours. Hugs and love from NC.
Off Topic
“The Fatal Beating of a Teenager in a New York Church – We Are Outraged!”
The pastor just pleaded guilty to manslaughter.
http://www.uticaod.com/news/20161021/word-of-life-church-pastor-pleads-guilty-to-manslaughter
okrapod wrote:
I do see how you feel. I pray for a lot of people, some in crisis, and I know that God knows needs even before we do, and that when we pray, the words ‘Thy Will be done’ have great power. Like a child asking of a father, we sometimes don’t know what is best for us or for others, so there is that to think about also.
If we desire for ourselves only what God wills, we are following Our Lord’s Way, Who prayed “41 And He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, where He knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.” 43 Then an angel from heaven appeared to Him and strengthened Him”
(from the Holy Gospel of St. Luke, chapter 22)
so we ask and hope what we ask for is God’s Will, and that if it is not, and we are facing a crisis, that He will send the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to strengthen us and not abandon us in our trouble
I suppose this is the opposite of the ‘name it and claim it’ gospel, but it is something that is KNOWN to have worked at Lourdes, where there have been ‘miracles’, not all of the kind that are physical, but so many of the spiritual kind, where a person is given peace and a calm spirit and feels loved and not alone ….. biblical? I guess it depends on one’s ‘gospel’, yes.
Would I want the best for people …. always, yes, but I have to trust that the ‘best’ is always found in the Will of God
““Jesus did not come to explain away suffering or to remove it. He came to fill it with His Presence.”
Ken G wrote:
I cried when I first read about this case. It was so shocking. So grievous. For the love of God and all that is holy, what makes people think they can do that to any person, any creature?
brian wrote:
And with you, Brian
okrapod wrote:
I was referring to your comment about praying for God to save the life of a loved one. God may or may not do that, He may extend a life or not, He may heal sickness or not, may set one free from alcoholism or refuse to take it away and force them to spend a lifetime fighting it so they don’t become an arrogant jerk (see Paul’s thorn, mentioned in the main article). He’s not going to do a thing outside of what He wants to do and prayer should probably be more about getting closer to Him to understand that will than trying to find some means of manipulating it (that said, my wife has a different view on this and can cite Lot’s, Abraham’s and Jacob’s apparent bargains with God to support her point. So I suppose anyone who says for sure that “God doesn’t bargain–that’d a no brainer”, as one net commentator claims, hasn’t read their Bible too closely or doesn’t much care what it says–so I can understand why people would reach a different conclusion from me and say it’s more nuanced that I present it).
Law Prof wrote:
Well put. Lemme’ chime in. The question has never really been ‘can he?’, rather, it’s always been, ‘will he?’.
Velour wrote:
“So what if I rack him ’til he die? For I shall have Saved His Soul.”
— “The Inquisitor”, Mark Twain’s Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court
Velour wrote:
Satan.
Max wrote:
what has become so apparent in many cases is an evil ‘cycle’, that what was done to someone, that person then does the same abuse in their turn
a kind of rabid disease, such evil?
that it corrupts the victim so profoundly that they in turn become perpetrators ???
the psychologists call this ‘acting-out’ behavior
but without doubt, it began with evil ennacted on an innocent and wherever this happens, we also see the hand of satan at work in the world
reports are coming in that ISIS has murdered almost three hundred innocent men and boys (children) in Mosul …. we have no doubt of satan’s presence in that massacre, no.
Christiane wrote:
Or is it group think? Like how a gang operates. The pressure to conform, to go along because everybody else in the group is doing [name of whatever they’re doing].
Plenty of people have had bad, horrible things happen to them and have never acted out.
Muff Potter wrote:
I’ll add my .02 as well. When someone isn’t healed then many people start behaving like Job’s “friends”. What did you do? What sin did you have? What sin did your parents have?
At a time when people don’t need the grief, they often get it from the holier-than-thou types.
Bottom line: are we going to love people no matter what happens?
Somebody forgot to tell the episcopalians that praying for the sick, including praying for healing, was a no-no because several pages in the Book of Common Prayer are specifically dedicated to this ministry to the sick. Biggest and oldest and richest episcopal church here has a healing service at a side altar from time to time even. The idea that this might be an attempt to manipulate God or that Jesus is really not on board with relief of suffering or that it is all about sin is just not part of the equation.
Personally I got so sick and tired of hearing the praying that goes ‘please be with Miss Maybelle on her bed of affliction, if it be thy will’ that I about could not stand it any more. ‘Be with’ is a promise, what’s with saying be with ‘if it by thy will’? Oh, well. I am better off with the episcopalians, and what other people do is their business.
@ Velour:
This is true. But the pain still changes them sometimes in the form of depression when they are older.
Gang behavior and bullying are growing in our culture. School systems are trying to prevent these behaviors with counseling and intervention. God help the children.
Muff Potter wrote:
True. Sometimes He will, sometimes He won’t. We won’t know why until we stand before Him one day, but until then, I do have the experience of having prayed fervently for a number of things over the years that just did not pan out. And looking back over five decades I can thank God for answering many of those prayers with silence or “No”–but you couldn’t have convinced me of that at the time when with clenched fists I wondered why oh why the Lord wouldn’t do these things that seemed so right at the time.
@ Dave A A:Matthew 7:13-14King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A13-14&version=KJV
Velour wrote:
Ditto. We’re supposed to be the balm and morphine to a world in pain.
@ okrapod:
I am all for praying for healing for people. I pray for that as do other Christians.
There is an ugly side to this that perhaps you haven’t experienced, thankfully, with the Episcopalians, that I have seen with evangelicals and other such groups: they are willing to berate people who are ill (and their families) at a time they need comfort. The poor souls are lectured about ‘secret, unconfessed sins’ in their lives that have supposedly caused them to be sick.
Jesus was asked was it a blind man’s sin or his parents’ sin that caused him to be blind.
Jesus answered that it was neither.
John 9:3-4
“His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.”
Maybe the ‘works of God’ that ‘might be displayed’ aren’t just healings and quick fixes to physical sickness but the love, faithfulness, and concern that we pour out on the afflicted and their families. Maybe it’s the faithful ways that God shows up to comfort the afflicted.
Velour wrote:
Their cruelties know no bounds. A pox on them. And may their tribe die out.
Law Prof wrote:
The way I hear it, God always gives us an answer. It’s just not always the answer we want to hear.
Christiane wrote:
Seconding this. An abscessed tooth hurts like the very devil, but the fact the infection is in your (physical) head makes it more dangerous. Get on an antibiotic, please!
And yes, I am praying for you.
dee wrote:
OK, Zooey’s Granma story: Gran worked in the general store in our town back during prohibition. Every day, the same two men came in; one bought two LARGE bottles of vanilla extract; the other bought an extra-large bottle of vanilla & a medium sized bottle of lemon extract. Finally, she said to her boss one day, “What on earth are they doing with all that?” Her boss sighed, & explained that they were, (as they were then known) the ‘town drunks’. It was their way to get their alcohol for the day.
Gran (about 18 at the time) exclaimed, that “If they’re that desperate, I’ll sell them all they want”…..Like most young folk, she had once tasted vanilla because it smells so good. The flavor however, is another story…..
@ Velour:
When they asked Jesus about the situation with the man blind from birth he gave an answer about that specific situation.
When Jesus told the rich young ruler to so sell all his possessions and give it all to the poor he was talking to a specific person in a specific situation.
When Jesus told the thief on the cross that today they would be together in paradise, it did not apply to the other thief.
When Jesus gave the good samaritan illustration and noted the use of oil and wine to treat wounds this does not mean some universal concept of oil and wine in traumatic injuries.
There seems to be an epidemic of people taking every word in scripture out of context and trying to make some doctrine or rule or law or prophecy or what have you out of it. It is neither biblical nor reasonable to do this.
But you are absolutely correct. People do this. I think this is one way that the ‘deceiver’ deceives people, by distorting the meaning of what has been said.
I do so appreciate the way you have listened to some things I have said and have interacted on an adult level even when I know it must surely be difficult at times. I appreciate what you do here, Velour.
@ okrapod:
Agreed. Scripture taken too seriously, and not seriously enough.
In my opinion, Chuck Smith and Bart Ehrman illustrate the two extremes with aplomb.
Muff Potter wrote:
I also find myself asking “does he?” There is a saying, “God hates amputees” that comes out of this because he obviously is not healing missing limbs, disfigurement that can be seen, and so on. Regardless of how we look at the issue of healing we all have to admit there are limits to what God is willing to do. I’ve known people who are absolutely convinced God still raises people from the dead. It always happens in some far off place where no one can verify it.
I guess the way I look at it… I like to feed the wild birds and I always put food and water out and enjoy watching them. But I had one bird that would come to the window and tap on it if the food was out and he eventually became tame enough to come and take the food out of my hand. I was feeding all the birds, but this one bird realized where the food came from and who was responsible for putting it there. The Bible says that God sends good things, rain for crops, sunshine, etc, to all the world. But we who believe know who to thank for the good things. We ask in faith for what we need and desire and we know who to thank if it comes about.
zooey111 wrote:
Thanks zooey, I am on antibiotics, just got some more from the emergency dentist, to see me through until my appointment on Tuesday. Ouch, also ouch. Plus waaah! Thanks for the prayers.
@ Muff Potter:
ps. I did not mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you, Muff, I agree with your assessment, just adding a bit of my own pondering to it.
Velour wrote:
Yes! This!
@ siteseer:
I agree siteseer. My hummingbirds have gotten to know me too and are not afraid of the critter who keeps their feeder stocked with nectar. My fence lizards also know me and seem to be as fascinated with me as I am with them.
Velour wrote:
I beg to submit that there’s just one word missing from the above, namely “also”. So: maybe the “works of God” that “might be displayed” aren’t justhealings, but also the love, faithfulness, and concern that we pour out on the afflicted and their families.
I don’t personally see any command or encouragement from Jesus to offer/give people quick fixes to physical sickness. He made something of a habit of touching the sick – in particular, for instance, the socially untouchable lepers – as he healed them. The laddie lowered through the roof had his sins forgiven before he was told to stand up and walk. And the lassie with the 12-year-long haemorrhage was not allowed to leave until God had looked her in the eye, called her “daughter”, commended her faith and sent her away in peace.
Peter famously said to the beggar at the Beautiful Gate: I don’t have silver or gold, but I’ll give you what I do have: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk. Nowadays, and for whatever raft of reasons, we (the Church) don’t seem to have what Peter had. We’ve all seen various ways in which the Church has gone about either responding to, or justifying, that fact. One of those ways is to create an environment in which there’s a lot of hype and emotion and then make a big fuss of the few people who experience some psychosomatic pain relief – and yes, that’s a quick fix for physical sickness (but not a healing). Another is to paint a target around whatever it is that we can do and call it something like “the real miracle” or refer to “the wonders of modern medicine”. Sometimes, I’ve seen this second approach involve the active denigration of healing.
These aren’t the only two alternatives, though.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
like the peace we are given in the midst of very deep grieving
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thanks, Nick! Well said.
I ALSO must confess that I have been spending more than a wee bit of time on Twitter, with a character limit of 140. I have gotten in the habit of…gasp…omitting words to ‘clear for take off’. Oh well. I will have to remember my medium and also adapt accordingly.
Christiane wrote:
Yes, Christiane.
And I think that God did something in me the night He ordered me to see a young man named Sean in the hospital who was dying from AIDS. Sean’s mom died when he was a child. His remaining relatives, including his father, had disowned him.
I thought when I took my little old lady friend Catharine, age 100, with me to see Sean from 2 a.m. to 4 a.m. in the community hospital emergency room that we were going to minister to Sean. We brought Christmas gifts for him and a table top Christmas tree.
He kept saying to us, he was very weak, that it was the “best Christmas [he’d] ever had in [his] entire life.” He kept hugging us, but especially hugging Catharine who ran her fingers through his hair.
God did something in me that night, showed me who He was, what He could do. The room for indigents that Sean was in was ugly but at the same time beautiful because it glowed from the of God. I thought every time I took a step I was going to bump into an angel, “Pardon me, I’m sorry” I thought silently as I moved in that room. I could FEEL them.
Sean died from AIDS at about 6:30 a.m. that morning. But we were all healed that mid-December night.
Friend wrote:
Yes, it is much the same story, isn’t it?
So many tragedies seem to be traced to human carelessness over the health & safety of others….
Velour wrote:
As I said about Twitter addict Flutterhands Piper, it’s really hard to do more than a quick sound bite in 140 characters. ANd when you strip a subject down to Twitter length, you’re going to lose a lot.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
As Don Francisco phrased it in one of his Eighties story-ballads:
“The big one spoke
Said ‘We’re broke
But in the name of Jesus, get up and walk!'”
siteseer wrote:
How does that differ from all the paranormal “true accounts” reported in the tabloids?
Or Urban Legends?
Muff Potter wrote:
…All the world’s creatures
Draw joy from nature’s breast;
Both the good and the evil
Follow her rose-strewn path.
She gave us kisses and wine
And a friend loyal unto death;
She gave lust for life to the lowliest,
And the Cherub stands before God…
— From: Friedrich Schiller’s Ode to Joy —
@ Velour:
Beautiful, beautiful testimony, VELOUR
zooey111 wrote:
It isn’t ‘carelessness’ when the safety of workers is compromised for the sake of a company’s profit ….. then, it is murder
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m still pretty cogent on Twitter, have correct theology, and believe in protecting victims. And I don’t believe in being weird like Flutterhands Piper.
@ Velour:
I love this story (a word I use for want of a better, not to imply that it isn’t factual).
It reminds me of something Somebody once said:
Christiane wrote:
THat is so true. As the descendant of a long line of miners, I take such stories very personally.
After one such happening in the Appalachian coal country, my grandfather packed up his family & their meager belongings, and moved north. He told my grandmother that “we may all starve, but not one of our sons is going to be buried in a vein of coal”.
Do NOT use National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence materials. Do NOT use AA materials. Avoid Twelve Step programs like the plague that they are.
Instead check into Evidence Based programs. Many studies have shown that Twelve Step Programs offer no improvement over trying to quit on your own. Evidence based programs work far better.
Oh, and avoid Narconon, it is a Scientology front.