Rachel Miller and the Missing CBMW Posts on the Eternal Subordination of the Son

One cannot and must not try to erase the past merely because it does not fit the present. Gold Meir link

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There will be another post today.

I want to thank Rachel Miller for all of the hard work she put into this research.

I have been meaning to get this up for over a month. In August, 2016, Rachel posted  ETERNAL SUBORDINATION OF THE SON AND CBMW and CBMW’S BLOG SERIES ON THE ETERNAL SUBORDINATION OF THE SON These posts are extremely important because it appears that the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is trying to rewrite their history regarding their longstanding support for this controversial doctrine.

When Denny Burk took over as the President of CBMW, he denied that there was any connection between CBMW and this teaching. Denny Burk is a pleasant sort but I had to pick myself off the floor when he said this. CBMW has been an ardent supporter of this doctrine and I knew that there were posts on their website that would prove the matter.

Except, they disappeared! Can you imagine Christian leaders lying about this and hiding the documentation? Why? I'll let you all determine possible motives.

Thankfully Rachel Miller was having none of this and was able to find the now missing posts along with other publications. Please refer to the two posts in order to understand the amount of research that Stark put into these articles.

From ETERNAL SUBORDINATION OF THE SON AND CBMW we learn:

John Piper and Wayne Grudem’s Recovering Biblical  Manhood and Womanhood was published in 1991 for CBMW as a collection of essays explaining their view of biblical manhood and womanhood. ESS appears in a couple of essays.

…Wayne Grudem’s “The Meaning of Kephale (“Head”): A Response to Recent Studies” gives the clearest statement of ESS. It’s included as an appendix in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

…Bruce Ware, a CBMW council member, wrote a 2002 article “Tampering with the Trinity,” which is available on CBMW. Ware wrote:

The authority-obedience relation of Father and Son in the immanent Trinity is mandatory if we are to account for God the Father’s eternal purpose to elect and save His people through His beloved Son.

…Mary Kassian, CBMW council member, has written several books that promote ESS.

From CBMW’S BLOG SERIES ON THE ETERNAL SUBORDINATION OF THE SON , we learn:

In my previous article on CBMW and the Eternal Subordination of the Son, I gave many examples of why it’s not accurate to say that CBMW is neutral in the current debate. But it is also not accurate to say that CBMW only has the one post on the Trinity. A quick search on CBMW’s website for “eternal subordination” will return a number of hits. There are several posts responding to or reviewing books by egalitarians who have written against ESS/EFS/ERAS.

There is also an interesting series of posts specifically on the Eternal Subordination of the Son. Eternal Subordination of the Son: The Basics, Part IIIIII, and IV and Eternal Subordination of the Son: Pastoral Implications, Part V were originally posted back in 2008. Unfortunately, something happened to the text of the posts. As others have noted, the text of these five posts is identical and unrelated to the topic. It seems to have come from a different post on headship written by Mary Kassian back in 2008.

…I discovered the messed up posts when I was researching for my last post on CBMW and ESS, and I was very disappointed not to be able to read the originals. But thanks to the miracle of the internet, I can share with you the original content! The posts were originally run between February 18-February 22, 2008.

Please visit her website to read these articles in their entirety. I am thankful that she is holding CBMW responsible for their words and their publications. 

Comments

Rachel Miller and the Missing CBMW Posts on the Eternal Subordination of the Son — 74 Comments

  1. When you have to lie and hid things, IMO it says lots about one’s practical Christianity. I am beyond fed up with these guys denying women their rightful use of their services in the Kingdom of God. They will give an account to God.

  2. I suspect that what is going on has to do with something called the ‘alternate reality’:

    even if a person actually said or wrote something, and video or published evidence actually EXISTS to verify that they said something;
    they can then state boldly that it NEVER HAPPENED. And their followers will believe them. This is one weird current phenomenon and can only work if the person(s) doing the hiding, the denying, the removing of evidence if possible, etc. operates within a ‘bubble’ isolated from the rest of the real world.

    In that ‘bubble’, information can be ‘controlled’ to fit what the current agenda is.

    I suggest that in neo-Cal world, we are witnessing the practice of this new phenomenon: an ‘alternate reality’.
    Those in the bubble do not assume responsibility for accountability to any other ‘reality’ than their own construct of it. Crazy? No, just the way it is now.
    In the year 2016. May God help us all.

  3. Wow! I leave home for the better part of a day, and look how much I miss!
    Hey, if the CBMW will cave on ESS, what else will the give in about?

  4. Rachel Miller is another of the young Reformed women who are exposing the idiocy that CBMW and associated organizations have been spewing for so long.

    Denny Burk, do you have the moral courage to say forthrightly what happened to those articles? Do you have the moral courage to repent for the sins against your sisters, primarily, but also your brothers that have been committed in the name of Jesus? Or are you just going to hide in the shadows and pretend that CBMW does not have an ugly history.

    For what it is worth, I found out about ESS on the CBMW website along with some other people I know who, like me, thought it was impossible that a conservative organization could possibly teach such heresy. Denny Burk cannot purge my memory–a memory which has changed my life in many ways.

  5. 9Marks is up to their eyeballs in ESS and Female Subordination. They had an entire 9Marks Journal filled with it. I wonder if CBMW’s Journals have been archived so that they can be searched.

  6. Nancy2 wrote:

    Hey, if the CBMW will cave on ESS

    They will never come out straightforwardly and admit that they have taught grievous error, because that opens the door to examination of the other things they have taught. Not to say I told you so, but when I read Mohler’s statement on ESS, I knew they were going to try to disappear their history on ESS and Female Subordinationism, which is the reason ESS was invented by George Knight III in the first place. Is he still teaching at a confessional Presbyterian seminary?

  7. Ken F wrote:

    Just for fun, check out 9marks.org. All of the new articles are about authority.

    “Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren’t.”
    ― Margaret Thatcher

  8. Also highly recommended are the posts by Wendy Alsup and Hannah Anderson at theologyforwomen.org on the recent revisions in the formerly permanent but now provisional ESVPV.

  9. Rachel is also a brave woman. She has been called some very nasty things by the Bayly Bros. and I have no doubt that many Neo-Cal Patriarchs wish her Male Head would put her in line.

  10. I seem to remember Christian leaders decrying the secular practice of re-writing history back a couple decades… I guess they discovered they can use it for their own purposes so now it isn’t so bad after all?

  11. “The important thing about groupthink is that it works not so much by censoring dissent as by making dissent seem somehow improbable.”

    -James Surowiecki

  12. JYJames wrote:

    if one has the power, then one decides Truth.

    In other words, history is written by the victors.
    Only problem now, for those who assume victory, it that there is this thing called the Internet. Things can be examined publicly long before it becomes history.

  13. siteseer wrote:

    I seem to remember Christian leaders decrying the secular practice of re-writing history back a couple decades… I guess they discovered they can use it for their own purposes so now it isn’t so bad after all?

    oceania has always been at peace with eurasia, comrades.
    LONG LIVE BIG BROTHER!

  14. Darlene wrote:

    Rachel is also a brave woman. She has been called some very nasty things by the Bayly Bros. a

    The Bayly Bros are sooo fringe!

  15. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    Just for fun, check out 9marks.org. All of the new articles are about authority.

    “Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren’t.”
    ― Margaret Thatcher

    Saw that quote on Pinterest the other day! It definitely applies to these guys.

  16. I am just setting out to read, and my coffee is still brewing, so please bear with me. Who is Stark, please?

    (From the OP: Please refer to the two posts in order to understand the amount of research that Stark put into these articles.)

    Thank you for all you do. I am very thankful for you and the other “discernment bloggers”.

  17. the text of these five posts is identical and unrelated to the topic. It seems to have come from a different post on headship written by Mary Kassian back in 2008.

    My word. Prestidigitation, anyone? “Now you see it, now you don’t!”

    And let us not forget, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!”

  18. Edward wrote:

    Is it so hard to simply say “we were wrong?”

    Cluster B’s are never wrong and never responsible, so they never need to apologize or admit a mistake. And their cover stories are transparent. And they will act as if their outrageous behavior simply never happened, and what is *your* problem?

  19. “There is also an interesting series of posts specifically on the Eternal Subordination of the Son. … Unfortunately, something happened to the text of the posts. As others have noted, the text of these five posts is identical and unrelated to the topic. It seems to have come from a different post on headship written by Mary Kassian back in 2008.”
    +++++++++++++

    oh my. has anyone alerted Grant Castleberry-Executive Director-Chief Editor, Brittany Lind-Operations Director, or Denny Burk-President that their website has this error?

    Surely they would want to correct this glitch and make sure their posts appear under the correct titles.

  20. @ refugee:

    “My word. Prestidigitation, anyone? “Now you see it, now you don’t!””
    +++++++++++++++++

    Prestidigitation… ooooo, neat word!

  21. elastigirl wrote:

    oh my. has anyone alerted Grant Castleberry-Executive Director-Chief Editor, Brittany Lind-Operations Director, or Denny Burk-President that their website has this error?
    Surely they would want to correct this glitch and make sure their posts appear under the correct titles.

    You would think any Christian would want their words to be on the up and up . . . .

  22. elastigirl wrote:

    Surely they would want to correct this glitch and make sure their posts appear under the correct titles.

    They would if the content of those articles were not so insane and unsupportable. Denny Burk is furiously trying to re-brand CBMW into something that CBMW 2015 would have labeled liberal and feminist. The problem for Denny is the internet is a distributed channel of information, and he cannot control the gates to those widely distributed channels. He cannot control the paychecks, positions, and perks of all those widely distributed sources. CBMW is over, and it is just a matter of time until reality becomes undeniable and the plug gets pulled.

  23. elastigirl wrote:

    “There is also an interesting series of posts specifically on the Eternal Subordination of the Son. … Unfortunately, something happened to the text of the posts. As others have noted, the text of these five posts is identical and unrelated to the topic. It seems to have come from a different post on headship written by Mary Kassian back in 2008.”
    +++++++++++++
    oh my. has anyone alerted Grant Castleberry-Executive Director-Chief Editor, Brittany Lind-Operations Director, or Denny Burk-President that their website has this error?
    Surely they would want to correct this glitch and make sure their posts appear under the correct titles.

    I would notify them by Twitter, but alas they blocked me months ago for asking one little question of them. All others that I know on Twitter were also blocked – men and women.
    So it seems that light can’t penetrate the Black Hole that they have made for themselves.

  24. Gram3 wrote:

    The problem for Denny is the internet is a distributed channel of information, and he cannot control the gates to those widely distributed channels.

    Thank goodness!

  25. @ Gram3:

    yeah, i’m being tongue in cheek. i’d love to be able to tell them about the “glitch”, just to see what they would say. also, to inform the operations officer so she can see for herself how underhanded and deceitful her bosses are.

  26. Here’s another article that’s disappeared:

    Post titled “The Gospel and Biblcal Manhood and Womanhood” dated October 2009 now has instead of the article an advertisement for a September 2009 event:

    http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/The-Gospel-and-Biblical-Manhood-and-Womanhood

    The disappeared article contained this gem:

    “At a very significant level, the Gospel applies to a wife differently than it does to her husband.”

    https://web.archive.org/web/20091010031026/http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/The-Gospel-and-Biblical-Manhood-and-Womanhood

  27. Jerome wrote:

    The disappeared article contained this gem:
    “At a very significant level, the Gospel applies to a wife differently than it does to her husband.”
    https://web.archive.org/web/20091010031026/http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/The-Gospel-and-Biblical-Manhood-and-Womanhood

    That article also said, “First, marriage, throughout Scripture, is used to portray God’s saving promises and his covenant faithfulness to his people.” No proof was given. This statement is just flat out wrong, factually wrong.

  28. Please remember that CBMW is about one thing and one thing only: keeping women under the control of men.

    People associated with such an unethical goal will invariably be corrupt.

  29. Jerome wrote:

    Google cached page from just two weeks ago shows an article by George Rekers on ‘rearing masculine boys’:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XY59bBg4HSoJ:cbmw.org/tag/george-alan-rekers/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Now the CBMW site says “No results found”:

    http://cbmw.org/tag/george-alan-rekers/

    You realise George Alan Rekers hired a rent boy – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Alan_Rekers#.22Rent_boy.22_allegations

    No wonder they want to airbrush him out !!

  30. Jerome wrote:

    At a very significant level, the Gospel applies to a wife differently than it does to her husband.

    Good catch! And also, gross. That’s what these people really think. The gospel is for boys, girls should just be supporting them. Because we don’t really need anything else.

  31. @ Ian:

    Thanks for keeping it simple. You are so right. I have seen too many decent men corrupted and blinded by that doctrine. I came to see it as the evil one (however that manifests) using it to distract people from focusing on and seeking Jesus Christ by directing them to be immersed in performing “roles” .

  32. Gram3 wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    Surely they would want to correct this glitch and make sure their posts appear under the correct titles.
    They would if the content of those articles were not so insane and unsupportable. Denny Burk is furiously trying to re-brand CBMW into something that CBMW 2015 would have labeled liberal and feminist. The problem for Denny is the internet is a distributed channel of information, and he cannot control the gates to those widely distributed channels. He cannot control the paychecks, positions, and perks of all those widely distributed sources. CBMW is over, and it is just a matter of time until reality becomes undeniable and the plug gets pulled.

    Do you think? I am not quite as sanguine. Patriarchal religions are growing under the guise of being more friendly to women and equality. Especially Islam, Mormonism, etc. I have been astonished at how boldly Islamic groups here proclaim Islam includes equality for women. We know that cognitive dissonance works. People will literally insist the hajib communicates equality. It boggles.

  33. Lydia wrote:

    Do you think? I am not quite as sanguine.

    I don’t think it will happen overnight, but I do think the next generation (and this generation when it has seen more of life’s complexities) will re-think it. Islam is chic among the opinion-makers, mainly because the un-chic think that Islamism is a threat. The issue of integrating cultures with basically different presuppositions is a difficult and complex one, so people at both ends of the spectrum come to radically different conclusions about how to resolve that issue.

  34. Jerome wrote:

    “At a very significant level, the Gospel applies to a wife differently than it does to her husband.”
    https://web.archive.org/web/20091010031026/http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/The-Gospel-and-Biblical-Manhood-and-Womanhood

    From the article: “”Do we stand to lose something of the Gospel if egalitarianism is assumed?” In my opinion, the overwhelming answer is Yes.”

    Oh, dear!!!! There’s no telling how much of the “gospel” was lost when slavery was outlawed in the US!!!! Gasp! What have our ancestors done to God’s word?

  35. Lea wrote:

    Good catch! And also, gross. That’s what these people really think. The gospel is for boys, girls should just be supporting them. Because we don’t really need anything else.

    Beyond that, God doesn’t really have any use for females. We’re just the servants God gave to men as a gift.

  36. @ Gram3:
    When I grow up, I want to communicate like you. :o)

    You bring up a great point about generations. Even the YRR are aging and on their way to 40. We have yet to see the big fallout from that movement but we are seeing lots of cracks, tears, need for constant PR, rebranding, etc. And they are rebranding by using other hot topic social issues trying to attract that generation. Will they promote equality or special rights for ethnicities but no spiritual equality for women?

    Our culture is notorious for short memory. That is why guys like Russ Moore can have credibility with the 20 somethings. They only listen to what he is saying now.

  37. @ Jerome:

    and then John Starke’s thesis statement:

    “If egalitarianism is assumed, there are at least two aspects of the Gospel that we lose. Both are significant.”

    He fleshes it out by making 2 declarations (surrounded by a jumble of words):

    *“If we lose the important distinctions between the roles of husbands and wives in marriage, then we lose a significant biblical understanding of God’s work in Scripture and in redemptive history.”

    We do? Aside from circular reasoning, how?

    *“If we have confusion as to how men and women ought to act and fulfill divinely intended roles in the Church, marriage, and family, then there will be confusion as to how to apply the Gospel to the Christian life.”

    There will? Aside from circular reasoning, how?

    But John Starke declares it, so it must be so!

    (gawwwwwwd, this is just so stupid)

    he uses the word “interestingly” way too much — as if he, too, knows how stupid this is and is trying to smooth it over. but gotta fulfill that quota of stuff to write. if he has to make things up, so be it. christians are gullible enough.

  38. elastigirl wrote:

    he uses the word “interestingly” way too much

    Just like Piper uses the phrase “God’s intention” way too much in order to prop up and duct tape together their blue and pink gospel.

    If God were as uptight about there being a gender gospel, I think Jesus would have said something about it and wouldn’t have said a whole bunch of other things that completely kick the legs out from under their pink/blue interpretation.

  39. Mara wrote:

    Just like Piper uses the phrase “God’s intention” way too much in order to prop up and duct tape together their blue and pink gospel.

    If God were as uptight about there being a gender gospel, I think Jesus would have said something about it and wouldn’t have said a whole bunch of other things that completely kick the legs out from under their pink/blue interpretation.

    well, yes
    so realizing that, these men then tried to ‘kick the legs out from under’ Jesus with their ESS doctrine and their removal of ‘Christ is the lens through which Scripture is to be interpreted’ from the BF&M 2K

  40. Jerome wrote:

    [by John Starke at CBMW]

    “At a very significant level, the Gospel applies to a wife differently than it does to her husband.”
    https://web.archive.org/web/20091010031026/http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/The-Gospel-and-Biblical-Manhood-and-Womanhood

    Awful.

    Here are additional snippets from that page:
    ———
    by John Starke

    At a very significant level, the Gospel applies to a wife differently than it does to her husband. The Gospel informs a husband of God’s design for him as a man in a way that is different than the wife.

    Interestingly, the Gospel does not blur gender distinctions, but, rather, gives them definition. Our identity as men and women and how we relate to one another is informed by God’s saving work in Christ Jesus.

    …First, marriage, throughout Scripture, is used to portray God’s saving promises and his covenant faithfulness to his people.
    If we lose the important distinctions between the roles of husbands and wives in marriage, then we lose a significant biblical understanding of God’s work in Scripture and in redemptive history.
    —- end snippets—

    My responses. Point 1. I think he’s maybe reading too much into what “the Gospel” is or means or does. I’ve always understood it to mean Jesus dying on the cross for people’s sins and being raised from the dead, thus giving anyone who believes (puts saving faith in Jesus as Savior) a shot at reconciliation with God.

    I don’t see how any of that defines masculinity or femininity.

    Point 2, marriage.

    As a never-married lady who is in her 40s, I’m really sick and tired of these complementarian guys insisting that marriage is some kind of necessary component to salvation or to understanding God-

    As it ends up making singles such as me into chopped liver, or communicating the idea that singles have no part in any of this, or the Gospel is not for single adults.

    To reiterate:

    If we lose the important distinctions between the roles of husbands and wives in marriage, then we lose a significant biblical understanding of God’s work in Scripture and in redemptive history.

    Apostle Paul said it is better to stay single than marry in 1 Corinthians 7.

    Imagine if, in some Sci-Fi sort of movie, all Christians were single, maybe due to choice or by circumstance.

    Is this C.B.M.W. author, Starke, telling me that in a world populated with ONLY adult single Christians, nobody can get saved, understand the Gospel, or the Gospel cannot be reflected among singles?

    If you’re saying marriage is somehow necessary to the Gospel, you’re adding to the Gospel, which makes it a false Gospel, yes?

  41. Daisy wrote:

    I’m really sick and tired of these complementarian guys insisting that marriage is some kind of necessary component to salvation or to understanding God-

    So Jesus, Stephen, the Apostle Paul and others…knew nothing of God and The Gospel because they weren’t married according to the Comp (il) *logic*.

  42. Lydia wrote:

    Do you think? I am not quite as sanguine. Patriarchal religions are growing under the guise of being more friendly to women and equality. Especially Islam, Mormonism, etc.

    These groups try to put a positive spin on their restrictive roles and teachings about women by trying to convince women these rules are for their benefit
    and/or
    they will teach women in their respective faith communities that their only other choice is to become a far left wing, God rejecting feminist who never shaves her legs.

    I have seen more and more women Mormons speak out against the sexism in their religion over the last year or two. Here is just one example:

    Mormon feminists celebrate after LDS church stops forcing girls to recite rape-shaming verse
    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/09/mormon-feminists-celebrate-after-lds-church-stops-forcing-girls-to-recite-rape-shaming-verse/

  43. elastigirl wrote:

    (quoting John Starke)
    “there will be confusion as to how to apply the Gospel to the Christian life.”

    I’m not sure what he means by “applying the Gospel” to Christian life. If he means living life as a Christian…

    Jesus managed to boil down the 500+ commands of the Old Testament into these two:
    -Love God
    -Love your neighbor as yourself

    And in the NT, Jesus added, “Love each other as I have loved you.”

    Doesn’t sound complicated to me, and I don’t see Marriage or Gender Roles playing a part in any of that.

  44. elastigirl wrote:

    @ refugee:
    “My word. Prestidigitation, anyone? “Now you see it, now you don’t!””
    +++++++++++++++++
    Prestidigitation… ooooo, neat word!

    “Prestidigitation? He presses refrigerators?”
    — The Three Stooges

  45. elastigirl wrote:

    “There is also an interesting series of posts specifically on the Eternal Subordination of the Son. … Unfortunately, something happened to the text of the posts. As others have noted, the text of these five posts is identical and unrelated to the topic. It seems to have come from a different post on headship written by Mary Kassian back in 2008.”

    As of now, It Never Existed, Comrades.

  46. Gram3 wrote:

    Edward wrote:
    Is it so hard to simply say “we were wrong?”

    Cluster B’s are never wrong and never responsible, so they never need to apologize or admit a mistake. And their cover stories are transparent. And they will act as if their outrageous behavior simply never happened, and what is *your* problem?

    And it’s contagious. When you’re surrounded by Cluster Bs, you have to adapt their “Never Admit To Anything!” and “You’re the One With The Problem!” in self-defense or They Will Chew You Up. If you don’t, you have just volunteered to be their scapegoat for all eternity. The nail that sticks up gets hammered down, HARD.

  47. Muff Potter wrote:

    dee wrote:
    The Bayly Bros are sooo fringe!
    True. They’d probably be much happier in Pakistan.

    Or Talibanistan.
    Or Boko Haram.
    Or Daesh.

  48. Edward wrote:

    Is it so hard to simply say “we were wrong?”

    Those who are already Perfect In Every Way Can NEVER be Wrong.
    Those who are already Perfect In Every Way Can Do No Wrong.

  49. JYJames wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    It seems if one has the power, then one decides Truth.

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER. And those who are too weak to have it.”
    — Lord Voldemort

  50. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    you have to adapt their “Never Admit To Anything!” and “You’re the One With The Problem!” in self-defense

    Very interesting. Could you elaborate because I’m not sure I understand. Thanks.

  51. @ Jerome:
    The correct quote from the article says, “The Gospel informs a husband of God’s design for him as a man in a way that is different than the wife.”

    Much different than what was posted. ‘[I]nforms’ and ‘applies’ are not the same.

    Thanks!

  52. @ Yvonne:

    hmmm. I’m not sure what your point is. the correct quote is actually,

    “Paul shows how the Gospel applies in particular to husbands, wives, parents, children, slaves, and masters. At a very significant level, the Gospel applies to a wife differently than it does to her husband. The Gospel informs a husband of God’s design for him as a man in a way that is different than the wife. Interestingly, the Gospel does not blur gender distinctions, but, rather, gives them definition. Our identity as men and women and how we relate to one another is informed by God’s saving work in Christ Jesus.”

    the article uses “applies” and “informs” for both genders. seems to me the author is using them interchangeably. i mean, it’s utter horsesh|t, but if one is splitting hairs…