Are Tullian Tchvidjian and ExPastors Playing It Straight? Time to Get Real and Grow Up!

When adultery occurs, three of the Ten Commandments are broken: you shall not commit adultery, not lie, and not covet your neighbor's spouse.  Dennis Hollinger, The Meaning of Sex link

http://www.christianpost.com/news/tullian-tchividjian-reveals-he-planned-to-kill-himself-after-losing-ministry-over-affair-scandal-170182/
link

If Tullian Tchividjian had stayed out of the public limelight, I would not have written this post. Since he appears to be writing a book and getting ready to build on his name (he mentions Grandpa Graham), then it is perfectly legitimate for me to express my opinion at his nonsense.

There was a dust up involving Tullian Tchividjian (TT) over an article that he wrote for Expastors which was dated in September but may have been written a bit earlier. It is helpful to know that TT remarried on August 30 and that his current wife is alleged to have been involved in one of his affairs.

What is EXPASTORS?

We started ExPastors.com in July 2012 to be an oasis of encouragement for pastors and church leaders who have or are going through a break-up with the church or have left a position of active ministry due to things such as: burnout, stress, frustration, fear, or moral failures. Equally, we wish to support, equip, and empower those looking to enter or are currently serving in ministry. We aim to educate current leadership by offering resources that provides a bridge between those currently serving and those previously serving in a pastoral or lay leadership capacity.

This group appears to be run by two businessmen who have left the pastorate. 

Here is a fatal flaw in their model which I find in the above statement. I will discuss this at the end.

(Expastors is for pastors who) have left a position of active ministry due to things such as: burnout, stress, frustration, fear, or moral failures.

TT wrote The Freedom in Losing it All. Notice what he does not mention.

First my marriage. Then my position at the church. And with those two losses came a thousand other losses. The loss of close friendships, the loss of financial stability, the loss of purpose, the loss of confidence in God’s goodness, the loss of hope, the loss of joy, the loss of opportunity, the loss of life as I knew it. Life went from feeling like a fairy tale to feeling like a violent tragedy.

That's right. He does not mention his alleged affairs (plural) which occurred when he was in a position of power as a pastor of Coral Ridge. This is more than a simple and sordid case of serial adultery.

TT claims that he almost attempted suicide and is a victim of circumstance.

He appears to cast the blame on those who didn't help him.

One final word to the church: when people screw up bad, try to help them. Do your best to sacrifice anything and everything to help them. More than likely, they screwed up bad because they need help. Don’t turn your back on them. Pursue them. Something isn’t right with them and they need help. Even if they have hurt you bad, do everything you can to help them. 

He says his problem was that he lost sight of the Gospel. When in doubt, throw in the gospel™ word which is often misused to claim memebrship in the tribe.

The shift from locating my identity in the message of the Gospel to locating my identity in my success as a messenger of the Gospel was slow and subtle. It came on like the slow creep of the tide rather than a sudden tidal wave. I painfully learned that the more you anchor your identity and sense of worth in something or someone smaller than God, the more pain you will experience when you lose it all.

My confidence was severely misplaced: Confidence in status, reputation, power and position, the way I spoke, the praise I received, financial security and success.

He appears to compare his struggle to that of Winston Churchill's struggles which seems a bit over the top. Churchill was talking about his struggles to lead Great Britain in WW2 not participating in serial adultery.

This means that He is the light at the end of your dark tunnel. And He’s not going anywhere. Others may leave, but He will stay. As Winston Churchill famously said, “When you’re going through hell, keep walking.”

Let's put the cards on the table. He is the one who had multiple affairs and then tried blamed his wife for causing this to happen. Except, he was the one to have the affair first. He lied to two churches and even persuaded some leaders to keep it on the down low. Then he left his family in Florida and moved to Texas to write a book and to quickly marry his Texas honey.

His crocodile tears remind of Curly of the Three Stooges who was apt to say  that he was "a victim of circumstance*." (Pronounced soycumstance.)

The negative comments about TT's post are now being erased.

Well, a number of people showed up at Expastors and commented that TT was not playing it straight. I should have taken more screen shots. The negative comments are disappearing rapidly. The moderators deleted Yvonne Trimble's comment who is a long time missionary in Haiti and has done more for the Lord than many pastors. She claimed that TT ignored her when he visited the ministry. Shame on all of them! We wrote her story here.

screen-shot-2016-09-29-at-4-27-37-pm

Here is what the moderators have posted at the site. The didn't mention anything about their deletion of comments.

screen-shot-2016-09-29-at-4-31-47-pm

Notice to Expastor moderators: There is a big difference between burnout and moral failure and they should not be in the same sentence.

In your *about us* section, you had this to say regarding Expastors. 

(for pastors who have) have left a position of active ministry due to things such as: burnout, stress, frustration, fear, or moral failures. Equally, we wish to support, equip, and empower those looking to enter or are currently serving in ministry. We aim to educate current leadership by offering resources that provides a bridge between those currently serving and those previously serving in a pastoral or lay leadership capacity.

How TT should handle it and then I will believe he is serious.

There are three pastors whom I dearly love. One of them had an affair. When it was revealed, this man gathered the church together and sat in the middle  of a circle of chairs. He then asked church members to express the pain and anger they had towards him. He faced his sin and respected his congregants. He had guts and truly exhibited the real Gospel in his actions.

This man stepped down and repented over a long period of time. He even worked in Home Depot where he served his former congregants. He has decided never to return to the pulpit but he has a teaching ministry now, years after the affair. My husband and I have encouraged him to start a church but he has remained adamant in his decision.

It is time for TT to try on some humility and to play it straight. Hiding out in Texas with his new honey and leaving his kids  his exwife and his former congregants behind are the actions of coward. He needs to return to Florida and get in a room so his former friends and congregants can come and tell him how they feel. He needs to apolgize specifically to each and every one of them.

He needs to be near his kids. They are hurting although there are some sycophants on Expastors who claim they are just fine. Baloney! I don't suppose he knows of Gabe's meltdown on Twitter. Does he? iI he doesn't, has he divorced his family as well? Time for him to truly repent and not hide behind some blog post.

Update:Thanks to Andrew, we now have Yvonne's comment and a response. 

He made a screen shot!!!

screen-shot-2016-09-29-at-5-31-34-pm

Update on removed comment provided by Andrew

screen-shot-2016-09-29-at-5-38-15-pm

Update- Gotta love this comment by Andrew still posted.

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Update 9.29PM : TT not looking particularly sad.

From Amy Moore on Twitter 

screen-shot-2016-09-29-at-8-39-47-pm

Comments

Are Tullian Tchvidjian and ExPastors Playing It Straight? Time to Get Real and Grow Up! — 291 Comments

  1. TT will get no sympathy from me. He does not appear to understand the gravity of what he has done. He needs to quit blaming others first.

  2. This week, I’ve been writing a chapter that overviews what indicators we can use for when someone is NOT YET qualified for a role of public prominence in our church, ministry, non-profit, or other organization — and what indicators we can use for when someone is DISqualified from such public roles, and what we do about it then. And then this case study surfaced.

    Here’s a series of three tweets I put on Twitter earlier today. I’ve edited them slightly to add back in words that got squeezed out to keep them to 140 characters.

    1/2 Repentance requires both/and: personal work (remorse inspiring action, recovery, rethinking) plus social/relational work (restitution).

    2/3 As transformation is deemed successful over time, then *MAYBE* organizational return is appropriate (rehabilitation, potential restoration).

    3/3 Restoration to a role of public presence and/or leadership responsibility should NEVER be guaranteed, even for the apparently repentant.

    If I take what Mr Tchividjian has said in his ExPastors.com article totally at face value, it gives the appearance of “repentance.” But it’s what has been left out that is crucial. There seems to be nothing there about active work to make things right with those he regrets harming by his sins and mistakes (he does use both of those terms).

    So, giving him the benefit of the doubt for the moment, this is at best a statement of feeling something is wrong, but it’s still all the personal side of the both/and equation in real repentance. When we see/hear publicly from those he harmed that he is making things right (which will not be a one-time action, most likely) then we can re-evaluate.

    But until that point, I can find no wisdom at all in giving Mr. Tchividjian a platform and kudos for apparent transparency that is still opaque. This will set up a next wave of victims for his charm and harm.

  3. Your analysis of this situation is spot on. Those that would applaud TT getting back on the ministry horse are contributing to the pain and heartache he caused. We all have choices. He made his choice and the result should completely disqualify him from any further ministry — church, parachurch, counseling, mentoring (can you imagine?), speaking engagements/conferences, etc. — It would also be appropriate for publishers to refrain from publishing or promoting anything he writes. I’m sad that he failed. He doesn’t seem to be doing badly with his new state, fresh divorce, new wife, new state (Texas), and a new platform with expastors.com. Those enabling him on this platform are spitting on the children he left behind and so many others that he has hurt. Tip of the day: Go get a real job. Find out what it means to clock in and out, spend sick days when you’re ill, and what it feels like to be just another guy. Further, leave grandpa out of this.

  4. Wow! I read the response to that Concerned comment but it had already been deleted. That is awful. I can see why they didn’t want that and Yvonne’s comments ruining their happy clappy we love you so much pastor, hurry back to the pulpit now that you’re all better love fest!!! There was another lady whose comments got left up who was talking about how she had a relationship with a pastor and the women left behind is never treated with as much deference as the pastor. Of course they didn’t comment on it because she didn’t say she hated Tullian. Maybe it will disappear too.

    Those ex pastor people are a piece of work. I just went through the comments earlier. I agree with you burnout and multiple continued moral failures of this sort don’t really belong in the same category. And they are totally confused about that whole plank/speck thing.

  5. TT cheated on his wife (committed adultery repeatedly) with at least two different women. Yet, he says he is a victim of circumstance???? That is not repentance! The only regret he seems to show is the fact that he got caught, and everybody knows what he did.
    And he wants back on the stage??? (oops not stage – pulpit. Ha!)
    No. He needs to get a job at Lowe’s or Walmat unloading trucks. He doesn’t even need to be in any sort of job that involves customer service if he can’t keep his pants zipped!
    How long before he cheats on his “Texas Honey”?

  6. Also the lady mentioned Justin Beibers sorry, but I think there is a more appropriate song, Rhianna’s Take a Bow. “Don’t tell me you’re sorry cause you’re not, baby when I know you’re only sorry you got caught. But you put on quite a show really had me going…”

  7. I was a huge supporter of him. I even approached him at a conference to thank him for his former ministry. (This was after the affair). I was delusional to believe the original story. However my husband saw him as well and said who is the blonde groupie with him? I admitted that was weird that she was right with him while he was at his book table. Well now after seeing her picture online, I know that blonde is his current wife. I was a bit uncomfortable that tons of people were having pictures taken with him and a few had him sign books. But I just chose to shove that away. I saw them while he was working at the second church “healing” according to him. That was in Feb. 2015. He deceived lots of people some a lot and some a little. I feel foolish for buying into the original narrative.

  8. Quoting TT:

    First my marriage. Then my position at the church. And with those two losses came a thousand other losses. The loss of close friendships, the loss of financial stability, the loss of purpose, the loss of confidence in God’s goodness, the loss of hope, the loss of joy, the loss of opportunity, the loss of life as I knew it. Life went from feeling like a fairy tale to feeling like a violent tragedy.

    He makes it sound as though he’s this innocent little lamb, a la Job in the Old Testament, to whom a bunch of horrible, no-good stuff just happened to happen to him, dang it all.

    But.

    The guy had more than one affair. He chose to have more than one affair. That’s on him.

    And I’d say most to all of the fall-out he’s experiencing is due to his choices.

    He had affairs and is already married a few months later, to a mistress, yes?

    I (who am over 40 and never married but engaged once) seemingly take marriage far, far more seriously than most of these married Christian preachers do.

  9. Reminds me of Mark Driscoll in the speed with which Tullian has left behind the burning conflagrations of his first marriage and family and church.

    Should we expect him to pop up with a shiny new ordination from somewhere, tanned, rested and ready to start a new church?

  10. Done (Just Watching) wrote:

    church, parachurch, counseling, mentoring (can you imagine?), speaking engagements/conferences, etc

    Oh, I can just imagine how this may play out.

    If this guy chooses to make money off Jesus again, someone somewhere will give him a platform – new blog, book deal, and/or conference speaking gig.

    At which point, he will get up and go on and on about how he’s a changed man now, being beat up by all the church meanies and watch bloggers was so tough, but the grace of God got him through!!! (yea-hoo for the Grace of God), and he’ll go on about how we’re all sinners.

    Naive Christians will applaud this. He’ll get a pass, and probably a new preaching gig at some church somewhere.

  11. ” … getting ready to build on his name (he mentions Grandpa Graham)…”

    TT would never have had a stage in Christendom if it weren’t for his Grandpa’s name.

  12. So TT’s divorce was final on March 2nd of this year, and he got married again on August 26th? He’s run away from his children to live in Texas?

    That’s disgusting.

  13. Again no surprise. This might be high treason here but I’ve never been a Billy Graham fan. Given some of the stuff, I’ve heard his son Franklin say, the decendents don’t seem impressive either. Ok, to be fair this is the only 2 I’ve heard too much about but it is the 3rd generation. Maybe there’s a sense of self importance passed along?

  14. What part of Texas is TT in? Since I live a few hours from Marquise, I will make sure I stay away from whatever area he is at. I’ve met men like TT. They are so slick looking. Just gives me the creeps.

  15. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    He’s run away from his children to live in Texas?

    If those children are very young, they need their father in their lives, yes. Nothing is worse in a broken marriage than the suffering of the children. To be then abandoned by a parent is to pour salt on their wounds.

    I can understand people ‘splitting up’, but I can never understand them deserting their children. Heartbreaking for those kids.

  16. I have no doubt that TT will find a new ministry platform and start drawing a big check again. Even with a laundry list of pastoral failings, Driscoll did! The pitiful condition of the American church provides new opportunities for failed shepherds who look just like their flock. There are always folks who are gullible enough to prop up such leaders and finance unrepentant comebacks. I will be the first to forgive TT if I sense genuine repentance, but I would never restore him to ministry … he forfeited that opportunity when he surrendered his calling (if he had one) to repeatedly fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

  17. Jack wrote:

    the decendents don’t seem impressive

    I just read that Will Graham, Franklin’s son, endorsed Ed Stetzer as the new Executive Director of the Billy Graham School of Evangelism at Wheaton College. Stetzer was a huge promoter of New Calvinism while at SBC-Lifeway, although his exact theological leaning has been elusive. I question Will Graham’s support of a non-evangelist to lead a school named after his evangelist-grandfather.

  18. I do remember sitting in the circle in a metaphoric sense and “repenting”. It was actually a communion meeting and I was apologizing for being a Jr Hitler / Jeffrey Dahmer wannabe after hearing what utter worthless wretches we all were in our “flesh”. My problem is I lacked the moral character to want to actually do what those two people did, the thought of hurting any person in any kind of way was so repugnant to me. But we had drummed into our heads that we were all dead in sin, wretched evil filthy God hating satan worshipers. This happens when “sin” like being attracted to a single adult lady your age and just wanting to say hello or have a conversation with or even maybe ask out to coffee. Of course, we all know that opens the door for all sorts of evil and the next think you know Sin crouches at the door waiting for you to fall. Or even worse you question the “logic” of excommunicating people who are mentally ill for moral failing when the leadership told them to stop taking their meds because Jesus healed them of all that bad thinking.

    So when they start struggling with their “behaviors” it becomes a “moral” failing. And you (me) are a moral failure too because we questioned the wisdom of the lead borg. I hate to use such extremist language but it is a profound thing to have a person in leadership tell you, personally, that there is no difference between you, a 22-23-year-old rather nieve person and a full blown version of Hitler, Dahmer, etc. Then there is the thought crime sins or maybe a “bad” word slips out or even worse you “gossip” against the collective when you question the functionality of Jack Chick tracts.

    This video sort of sums up how “sin” was explained to us
    https://youtu.be/viV1LsQPMeg

    The problem comes up with this type of 1 dimensional dogmatic black and white “thinking” is what we witness here with abuse victims being forced to apologize to the person that abused them or their wife or having to forgive the person in front of the congregation etc.

    I hope this makes sense, I do also want to add I no longer see God this way, and I am very grateful for the people here and other places that have helped me get past so much of this, but the thinking is still around and many people are trapped in it.

  19. From New Creation Church’s worship team guidelines, rules (cached)
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fnewcreationchurch.tv%2Ffiles%2Fchurch_forms%2Fworship_team_guidelines.pdf

    There’s a lot of awful stuff on their set of rules. I’m only calling out the few that grabbed my attention:
    – – – – – – – –
    From Page 5:

    D. Attitude
    A submissive attitude is very important among the worship team members. Speaking against the leadership will not be tolerated; neither will attitudes that have their own personal agenda. We are here to serve God through serving Pastor and this body and to be submissive to those over us

    Page 5:

    E. Holiness
    • Smoking, use of narcotics or alcohol, swearing, illicit sexual behavior and ongoing family problems are not acceptable in a music minister’s life and will not be tolerated.

    Page 4:
    No Excessive weight. Weight is something that many people have to deal with. Make sure that you are taking care of your temple, exercising and eating properly
    – – – – – –
    Re: “and ongoing family problems”

    You can’t have any ongoing family problems? They’ve just eliminated about 99% of the American population right there. I’d think church would be the one place where it would be okay to have “ongoing family problems.”

  20. Religion News Service posted an article today which is an interview between RNS writer Jonathan Merritt and Tullian about what was said in the Ex-Pastors article. The interview allows Tullian a one sided forum to address some of the criticism he received for his Ex-Pastor article. http://religionnews.com/2016/09/29/billy-grahams-grandson-talks-about-near-suicide-and-whether-hes-planning-a-comeback/

    Tullian talks more about spending two hours researching suicide and has some interesting things to say about any potential comeback. Readers need to read those parts carefully as Tullian is an expert in parsing words.

    Clinical depression is a very serious condition and Tullian speaks of his despair and lying on his floor in the middle of the night bawling. However, Tullian Tchanagans(a parody account) posts a picture of Tullian just days after his scandal broke. Tullian has someone take his picture in front of the Philly Rocky statue in a very triumphant pose that show no signs of this “brokeness”. Tullian was apparently enjoying his time in Philly where he flew to meet with Dr Paul Tripp about his scandal. I would ask readers to juxtapose Tullian’s words in the RNS article against this picture. https://twitter.com/pastortullian/status/781622410814509056

  21. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    This will set up a next wave of victims for his charm and harm.

    Great comments, Brad. Our society clearly favors charisma over character.

    I think we need a little less focus from leadership on “church” discipline and a little more focus on their own self discipline.

  22. Daisy wrote:

    There’s a lot of awful stuff on their set of rules. I’m only calling out the few that grabbed my attention:

    New Creation Church seems more like a re-creation of the Pharisees.

  23. Regarding “Ex-Pastors”, I’m scratching my head trying to recall any examples of them in Scripture. There are Kings who sinned and repented and numerous passages about other folks who turned from their sins with a godly sorrow that worked repentance in their lives. But accounts of failed pastors who repented and were restored to their pulpits?! I just can’t think of any. However, Jesus did have a firm word to say in the book of Revelation to pastors who had allowed their ministries to drift off course: “Repent or else!”

    These ex-pastors just need to let it go. Repentance is certainly in order, but not restoration to ministry. The office of pastor is a high calling – it demands complete devotion to the Master and those He has entrusted to them. When you turn your back on that, you forfeit the right to be called pastor again.

  24. Max wrote:

    Regarding “Ex-Pastors”, I’m scratching my head trying to recall any examples of them in Scripture. There are Kings who sinned and repented and numerous passages about other folks who turned from their sins with a godly sorrow that worked repentance in their lives. But accounts of failed pastors who repented and were restored to their pulpits?! I just can’t think of any. However, Jesus did have a firm word to say in the book of Revelation to pastors who had allowed their ministries to drift off course: “Repent or else!”

    The ex-pastors bring up King David and his sins a lot, but they never mention the prophets Jonah or Balaam.

  25. Daisy wrote:

    D. Attitude
    A submissive attitude is very important among the worship team members. Speaking against the leadership will not be tolerated; neither will attitudes that have their own personal agenda. We are here to serve God through serving Pastor and this body and to be submissive to those over us
    Page 5:
    E. Holiness
    • Smoking, use of narcotics or alcohol, swearing, illicit sexual behavior and ongoing family problems are not acceptable in a music minister’s life and will not be tolerated.
    Page 4:
    No Excessive weight. Weight is something that many people have to deal with. Make sure that you are taking care of your temple, exercising and eating properly
    – – – – – –
    Re: “and ongoing family problems”
    You can’t have any ongoing family problems? They’ve just eliminated about 99% of the American population right there. I’d think church would be the one place where it would be okay to have “ongoing family problems.”

    My gosh, where to start! You know, I don’t recall Jesus having rules like this for the Apostles.

  26. Max wrote:

    When you turn your back on that, you forfeit the right to be called pastor again.

    Amen! And if they did it to themselves quit with the moaning and groaning.

  27. Robin C. wrote:

    I feel foolish for buying into the original narrative.

    Come on into the clubhouse and join the rest of us. There are lots of us who bought into narratives that were false. We wanted to believe, and the ones who fooled us told us exactly what we wanted to hear. That is what Cluster B’s do (I’m not a psy* but TT’s behavior looks like NPD with a dash of histrionic and possibly others.) That is how they survive and thrive while leaving devastation in their wake. They are masters at getting us to believe their false narrative and dismiss evidence that contradicts it. We do that because we, ourselves, have invested in their narrative, and to deny that is to deny ourselves in that sense.

    I am using “we” to designate Gramp3 and me. I do not mean to imply that what I have described applies to you. And I thank you for your candor.

  28. Nancy2 wrote:

    The ex-pastors bring up King David and his sins a lot,

    they really do. David wasn’t a spiritual leader though, he was King. I don’t really think the two are analogous. I think they just like him because it was a sexual sin. And it the more and more of these stories we see, the more clear it seems there are a LOT of ‘pastors’ who are in it for the women. Or children, as the case may be. Ugh.

  29. I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! When I read the headline, I just knew he was writing a book. He’s now full of words like “repentance” and “God’s grace,” cheapening these phrases. It’s all about dollars.

  30. LT wrote:

    However, Tullian Tchanagans(a parody account) posts a picture of Tullian just days after his scandal broke. Tullian has someone take his picture in front of the Philly Rocky statue in a very triumphant pose that show no signs of this “brokeness”. Tullian was apparently enjoying his time in Philly where he flew to meet with Dr Paul Tripp about his scandal

    Here’s a time line, FWIW:
    06/21/15 Resignation
    06/23/15 Tweets “I’m so so sorry. I love you all…fade to black.”
    Most followers feared he was going to do something bad like quitting social media or even the ministry. But one said “Don’t kill yourself if that’s what it means.”
    06/26/15 Back to tweeting.
    06/30/15 Quoting and then thanking Tripp.
    So maybe his dark night of the soul was just that night of the 23d.
    BTW pastor tchenanigans seems to have been detwittered now, as someone threatened him with yesterday. But I saw the pic with Rocky, too.

  31. Gram3 wrote:

    We wanted to believe, and the ones who fooled us told us exactly what we wanted to hear.

    I have been there, although not in a church situation.

    To Robin, at least you are smart and brave enough to see the truth now. I think that takes some doing, and most of the dude bro pastor or expastor types are either too proud or have bought in to the story and the fellowship too much to admit they err’d.

  32. @ Gram3:

    I also meant to share a quote I saw the other day that helped me which was “Don’t cling to a mistake, just because you spent a lot of time making it”.

  33. Nancy2 wrote:

    The ex-pastors bring up King David and his sins a lot, but they never mention the prophets Jonah or Balaam.

    Good point. And what about Eli and his sons who profained the temple! The sons were killed in a battle with the Philistines, who also took the Ark of the Covenant. When he heard that news, Eli fell off his chair and broke his neck. God takes ministry seriously! Ministry shenanigans in the American church can be likened to giving the Ark of the Covenant to the Philistines! I’m surprised that more unfaithful pastors are not exposed and dealt with by the hand of God! We need a holy fear to grip the pulpit again!

  34. Christiane wrote:

    If those children are very young, they need their father in their lives, yes. Nothing is worse in a broken marriage than the suffering of the children.

    I’m going to disagree with the first sentence and agree adamantly with the second sentence. Children of any age need a parent who is a good person who puts the children ahead of his/her own interests. Children of any age do *not* need a parent who is not a good parent.

  35. LT wrote:

    Tullian talks more about spending two hours researching suicide

    Agree with you. No one who really wants to kill themselves needs to spend two hours “researching” how to do it. It is, sadly, very easy to do, as Gramp3 and I learned very recently. Hence my speculation about histrionic PD. Look at me! I was so desperate about the BadStuffThatHappenedToMeSomehow. Sorry, TT, my sympathy goes to your children and your wife.

    Having very recently come alongside friends with a relative who committed suicide, depression is a huge thing that the conservative church is ill-equipped to handle. Along with some other things.

  36. Lea wrote:

    “Don’t cling to a mistake, just because you spent a lot of time making it”.

    Recognize a sunk cost as a sunk cost and move forward.

  37. Max wrote:

    Good point. And what about Eli and his sons who profained the temple! The sons were killed in a battle with the Philistines, who also took the Ark of the Covenant. When he heard that news, Eli fell off his chair and broke his neck. God takes ministry seriously! Ministry shenanigans in the American church can be likened to giving the Ark of the Covenant to the Philistines! I’m surprised that more unfaithful pastors are not exposed and dealt with by the hand of God! We need a holy fear to grip the pulpit again!

    And then there was Judas Iscariot …….

  38. I just want to say how nauseating the title of the book is. TT did not “Lose everything.” He threw everything away. Those who trusted him and depended on him lost everything associated with him. Where is the freedom for them from the wreckage he has left due to pursuing “freedom” with other women? Does the latest iteration of Mrs. Tullian believe that she is somehow immune from the fate of the first Mrs. Tullian? There are more than a few flings who became spouses who found out they were not so special after all. Sometimes past performance is an indicator of future performance.

  39. Gram3 wrote:

    depression is a huge thing that the conservative church is ill-equipped to handle

    The sad thing is that if he really had been suicidal, this would have been a great opportunity to address that! But it doesn’t come off as real to me, it comes off as a narcissistic attempt at getting adulation and sympathy. If he had been depressed, it seems like he would have written something else. Instead it sounds like he is not sorry and wasn’t suicidal, he was just plain sorry he got caught. Granted, I could be wrong and he could be sincere? But now he’s gotten remarried, which was awfully fast. So somewhere in the midst of this major depressive episode he continued on with his affair (or one of them) to marriage and moving out of town.

    I would love see a timeline on all this…

  40. Gram3 wrote:

    I just want to say how nauseating the title of the book is. TT did not “Lose everything.”

    When you “lose” something, it means you are unable to find it or you have been deprived of it. The ex-pastor knows exactly where his ex-wife, ex-ministry, ex-church, ex-home, abandoned children, etc. are … so he didn’t lose those things in that sense. Thus, TT has been deprived of those things, not because they were taken away from him, but because he tossed them aside to pursue something more important to him. He willingly deprived himself of the things he “lost.” He didn’t lose everything; he surrendered everything … there is a difference.

  41. Gram3 wrote:

    Having very recently come alongside friends with a relative who committed suicide, depression is a huge thing

    A family member attempted 3 times, and didn’t send a tweet out to thousands of adoring fans– nor become hunky dory overnight. The first time, if I hadn’t gone to check when I did, it would have been too late. It took years to get on the right meds but she’s doing well now.

  42. Lea wrote:

    I would love see a timeline on all this…

    The link below goes to a resource bibliography that has many of the key timeline details up through March 2016, when things went silent. Read the overviews at the beginning of each year’s chronology section for the big picture flow of what happened and who was involved.

    There are some corrections needed on that page, which will likely be forthcoming once I’ve got time to edit it plus bring it up to date with information we’ve learned in the last six months. But it will get things started, as far as a timeline.

    https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/03/18/resource-bibliography-on-system-issues-related-to-the-tullian-tchividjian-situation/

  43. Jack wrote:

    Again no surprise. This might be high treason here but I’ve never been a Billy Graham fan. Given some of the stuff, I’ve heard his son Franklin say, the decendents don’t seem impressive either. Ok, to be fair this is the only 2 I’ve heard too much about but it is the 3rd generation. Maybe there’s a sense of self importance passed along?

    Actually, Boz Tchividjian, Tullian’s brother, and head of GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in Christian Environments), has been a powerful and compassionate voice for victims of sexual abuse, especially in Christian communities. I respect him very much.

  44. Dave A A wrote:

    It took years to get on the right meds but she’s doing well now.

    I’m thankful for that, because our friends were unable to get their loved-one to get the necessary help.

  45. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Oh! From one of your linked articles in 2015:

    “I experienced dark nights of the soul that I have never experienced before — despair, wondering if there is a future. I never could fully understand why people could take their own life. And while I have not been — thankfully, by God’s grace — tempted to do so, I for the first time understand why. I get the desperation, in a way that I never have,” he said.”

    Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/billy-grahams-grandson-tullian-tchividjian-says-he-never-thought-he-would-cheat-now-sees-why-people-commit-suicide-142491/#OrdgvmMuxBMYZeVb.99

  46. Quite a few of the Billy Graham offspring have made a good living off standing on stages and repeating “It was so hard to be the child/grandchild of Billy Graham. That’s why we have a history of multiple affairs and divorces and remarriages and substance abuse and fill-in-the-blank ongoing sin.” I tire of the whole schtick. These people have nothing to teach the rest of us.

    Want marriage, family, business, spiritual advice? Find mature people in your church or community you know and respect. See how they do things. Hang out with them. Don’t chase after Christian celebrities who don’t even practice what they preach.

  47. Jack wrote:

    Maybe there’s a sense of self importance passed along?

    Entitlement to a fine life, in this case off God’s people. Lots of second (and some first) generations go astray due to entitlement, regardless of religious affiliation or non-affiliation. When they don’t get what they feel entitled to, they act out because they “deserve” what they want. There’s a saying somewhere about rags to rags in 3 generations.

  48. @ Gram3:
    Bingo. The last thing children need is a narcissistic/sociopathic parent. Over time it wrecks more havoc than constant beatings. Yet the courts don’t really recognize it as a form of psychological abuse. But it is. It’s like growing up in a black op for them. Constant chaos, confusion and brain gaming on under developed minds. There are no easy solutions to this problem.

  49. Lea wrote:

    I also meant to share a quote I saw the other day that helped me which was “Don’t cling to a mistake, just because you spent a lot of time making it”.

    I can’t remember what it is, but I saw a term that described that concept a couple years ago.

    It may have been economic in nature, or the term started out being applicable to economics, but some people use it to describe other scenarios in life.

    But it described how people who have invested a lot of time in ‘X,’ even after they realize X is a horrible idea or whatever, will not give up X, only (or mainly), because they already spent a lot of time on X.

  50. Dave A A wrote:

    So maybe his dark night of the soul was just that night of the 23d.
    BTW pastor tchenanigans seems to have been detwittered now, as someone threatened him with yesterday. But I saw the pic with Rocky, too.

    Thanks for that timeline Dave AA. I don’t doubt that Tullian DID have some dark days after he realized that he could no longer hide his actions and that he was going to have to be held accountable. Some may have been very dark and I do not wish those on any fellow human being. However, because Tullian seems to be paving his way for a career reboot, I think we can and should review what has really taken place here.
    .
    Mark Driscoll did something extremely similar to this (and was continuing his “feel sorry for me” Victim Tour at the Leadnet 400 Gathering just this week) that we can learn from. In October 2014 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/10/20/mark-driscoll-rocks-the-gateway-conference/ Driscoll made his triumphant “resurgence” at Gateway’s Pastor’s Conference to the thunderous applause of 4,000 pastors supporting immediate restoration. And that’s what this was. Robert Morris flatly said that in the introduction. He sternly chided that Christians needed to stop “shooting their own wounded” and not “crucify” Mark since “someone’s already been crucified for him. The other choice is we could restore him with a spirit of gentleness”. Morris never once mentioned any Mars Hill victims and has never met with any of them. In the mega pastor world, sympathy, compassion and support is only for the PASTORS – not the victims and abandoned sheep.
    .
    If you haven’t watched that video or read the transcripts, please do, because you are watching Mark Driscoll Redux with Tullian. On that stage Mark made himself the VICTIM. He spoke passionately about his children been nearly stoned to death, choking us as he described them having night terrors because of the helicopter trying to “flush them us out for a story”, death threats and “people arrested at our home” and having his address posted by the media. It was a traumatic recounting of the many horrors that Mark and his family endured. (keep in mind that during his investigation of Mars Hill Paul Tripp declared MHC to be “without a doubt, the most abusive, coercive ministry culture I’ve ever been involved with” so Mark’s an expert in tyranny and terrorism so he would know all about that)
    .
    Except Mark left out a few details, just like Tullian left out some details. Mark’s massive $1.4M mansion backed up to a heavily wooded area in the tony suburb of Woodlawn. It was on a large lot and according to people familiar with his house and the area open woods and a creek ran behind the house and kids play in that creek bed and wooded area all the time and yes, they occasionally toss rocks or sticks at squirrels. But stoning children with baseball sized rocks on purpose? While that doesn’t sound plausible for hurting flock members, it does sound like kids playing in that area. As to “the people arrested at our home”, journalists checked all the local, state and federal police files and there were zero arrests on file. ZERO! MD completely made that up. There was a report of Mark calling the police to report rocks and a few nails on the driveway, but both of those sound more like child mischief not an angry church member. As for the doxing, it’s possible a blog might have posted the address, but the major media outlets said they did not and would not dox a pastor. Others tried in vain to find this posting and came up with nothing.
    .
    As for the helicopter swarming his home trying to “flush them out for a story”, one traffic helicopter went overhead in broad daylight once to get a single picture of Mark’s 7 figure mansion to run for a story on his excessive wealth. When you live as a public figure making millions solely off the name of Jesus that can happen. Ask Steven Furtick? Helicopters fly overhead all the time without anyone being traumatized. He also claimed that he moved his family of 7 plus pets, THREE times during this season of trauma due to all the danger.
    .
    Two years later Mark continues to play his victim card making new claims about his health. In the 10:45am service of his Jonah series Mark now claims that for several weeks during his “season of suffering” he was stricken with hysterical blindness. That’s right, he failed to mention it for the last 2 years but now at TTC he explains how one day he opened his eyes and realized he had LOST HIS VISION. He claims this went on for weeks and he couldn’t see at all. A “few days” after he first lost his vision, he went to the doctor and the doctor said his vision loss was stress related and would likely return. Guys…if any of you LOST YOUR EYESIGHT, how many of you would wait “a few days” before going to see a doctor? I don’t know anyone who would bother waiting a few hours.
    .
    Driscoll didn’t say his eyesight got blurry, he said he lost his vision and that’s how he knew he was like Jonah being sent to Nineveh because he had to sit in this old chair (he brought on stage as a prop) and do nothing for the weeks he was blind since he couldn’t see to get around, and it was in that time period that he communed with God. This was all during the acute “season of suffering” so let me ask you this. How is it that a blind man could see the rusty nails, the baseball sized stones flying at the children and how was he able to move such a big family 3 different times during this same season? And did they really move that old wood chair with them all three times, because you would think that would be part of the chair’s story – but it wasn’t – and Mark said he couldn’t leave the chair during those weeks. It also seems that the Driscoll children got over the trauma of cameras flying overhead as Mark’s big TTC promotional film featured zooming shots right over their heads and the children are running, frolicking and laughing, not looking for bullet-proof Kevlar vests.
    .
    Mark Driscoll invents and/or plays up these personal “traumas and dramas” so that the people will be afraid to bring up the pain of the victims he left in his destructive wake. Because how cold would you have to be as a Christian to DARE to ask questions of man who lost his eyesight, almost died from adrenal fatigue (not a real condition) or had his children traumatized and nearly stoned to death? I mean, it was so serious that “people were arrested!” You’d have to be a MONSTER! Listen to the crowd in that video and watch their reactions. The women have tears in their eyes and gasps and ohhs and oh mys can be audibly heard throughout. Driscoll played them like a Stradivarius. And Tullian’s PR men watched and took notes.
    .
    Tullian may have been depressed enough to research suicide. I don’t know. What I do know is if you look at that picture above, that is a picture of a self-absorbed narcissist who is obsessed with their appearance, not someone broken to their very core with puffy eyes barely able to get out of bed and find two clean socks. And look at the symbolism? Rocky making a comeback?! If you look at the facts, Tullian hooked up with Stacy, the smoking hot wealthy Houston socialite divorcee, awfully quickly. People who are truly clinically depressed generally cannot function at a high enough level to get to work let alone sustain constant work-outs, hair gelling and going through high society courtship and dating rituals. But a man with a plan, thinking about his rockin’ awesome relaunch could.
    .
    As we learned from Mark Driscoll, if Tullian’s suicide note writing reveal doesn’t lead to enough sympathy and kid glove handling, wait for the PR guys to help him play his next card. Hysterical blindness was just done. It could involve substance abuse. People are extremely sympathetic about that since most families have been touched by that at some point in some way. In the RNS article he already brought up his children and how hard this has been on them. He also brought up Daddy Bill and reminded the readers that Billy Graham is 98 in November and that Tullian just got back from visiting him. That was subtle but effective. I know these PR guys and they have decks of cards yet to play here.
    .
    It’s interesting that Tullian thinks that he needs not ONE but TWO articles within two days to explain how much he is suffering and how bad he feels. And he has outdone Mark Driscoll on the victim card. Tullian immediately bailed on his children so he couldn’t use them as a human shield like Mark Driscoll did and Ted Haggard did before him. That’s another tell on where Tullian’s priorities are – he immediately moved a few hundred miles away from his children and now with Stacy he is 1,200 miles away. This is not a person who puts their flock or charges well-being before his own personal needs or desires.
    .
    So Tullian pulled the one card that would buy him the greatest amount of sympathy and put him off limits to any critics or even people with questions. He said he contemplated suicide. Now everyone is required to walk on eggshells, otherwise, like in the Driscoll situation, they are the monsters. And if Tullian was sitting home alone in Ft Lauderdale I probably would be walking on eggshells and not posting anything, despite having doubts – so great is this trump card Tullian is playing. But just like Driscoll, Tullian is not sitting in his home town working through reconciliation with his home church. He is living in The Woodlands, one of the nicest areas in one of the largest and most cosmopolitan cities in the U.S. working on his new books with his new hot wife. And do we really think that Tullian was living like a monk prior to this wedding?
    .
    When Tullian was 16, his father, who was a noted psychologist, and his mother, who is Billy Graham’s daughter, called the police and had Tullian forcibly removed from their home because he was that rebellious, that unmanageable and that destructive. He never moved back. Instead he spent years, by his own testimony, buying and selling drugs, having sex with anyone he could and otherwise living a reprobate and illegal lifestyle. In the RNS article Tullian tells Jonathan Merritt: “I’ve lived my entire adult life with a plan.” That’s right. All those years Tullian lived having indiscriminate sex, buying and selling illegal drugs and being a beach bum were part of his “plan” something he was morally okay with in a planned out way. I heard Tullian say in an interview a long time ago how being a pastor was appealing to him because it left him more time for surfing mid-week. Isn’t it possible that this is a man who should have NEVER gone into ministry in the first place?
    .
    One other fact I would ask readers to consider… after the Ex-Pastor and RNS articles were published, Tullian’s brother Boz, who is one of the leading advocates against clerical abuse posted this Tweet https://twitter.com/BozT/status/781562644654354437?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet “Christians are often too quick to find a redemption story where it simply doesn’t exist. #dangerous” Perhaps I am reading something into this that doesn’t exist. Perhaps Boz doesn’t follow anything on his brother (though you’d have to wonder why?) But the timing of this Tweet does not seem random to me.
    .
    I also saw that Tullian Tchananagans’ Twitter account was suspended. “No Free Speech for YOU!!!” When I read the Ex-Pastor article, my first thought was that it read like the forward to his next book. Then today the RNS “explanation of the explanation” was rushed into print. That seemed forced and somehow “urgent” like a timeline is somehow involved. Now Tullian Tchananagans’ account is suspended. This sounds exactly how the big PR guys like DeMoss and Swicegood run their celebrity pastor rehab operations. And they do this stuff before ushering in the big come-back. So while Tullian cries, “I don’t have a plan. I’m open and willing to do whatever God summons me to do and to go wherever he calls me to go.” well, it seems like his PR guys DO have a plan and they know how to execute it.
    .
    Maybe Tullian will stay in the book writing and guest speaking business for a while. It’s less responsibility and with him now living “to the manor born” in The Woodlands, I’m not sure he needs the financial security of his own private flock. But it appears he may be planning on getting back into the public eye professionally. Too bad his victims and his abandoned flock don’t have as many fabulous options at their disposal.

  51. Between the OP’s story of an unrepentant pastor running off with his trophy wife to start writing the “transition-back-into-ministry” book, and the document Daisy linked with all the burdensome rules just to sing in church (including four practices a week, total submission to the pastors, and needing to pray in tongues) – you have a good summation as to why there are so many Nones and Dones in America today.

    But of course, it’s all THEIR fault, not the Church’s…

  52. LT wrote:

    Tullian talks more about spending two hours researching suicide and has some interesting things to say about any potential comeback. Readers need to read those parts carefully as Tullian is an expert in parsing words.

    A good friend of mine was married to an abusive husband for many years. Whenever he was caught in the consequences of his own behavior, he would play the suicide card. Poor me, feel sorry for me, I’m so broken I’m actually thinking about ending it all. After many years of this, she realized it was just a ploy, he had no intention of suicide.

  53. Daisy wrote:

    We are here to serve God through serving Pastor …and to be submissive to those over us

    Serve God through serving the pastor… is that in the scriptures?
    “Those over us” huh. What an ego trip for these guys.

  54. Patriciamc wrote:

    I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! When I read the headline, I just knew he was writing a book. He’s now full of words like “repentance” and “God’s grace,” cheapening these phrases. It’s all about dollars.

    I wonder if he’s even really writing a book… or has a team of “research assistants” (ghost writers) been hired to write one for him?

  55. Daisy wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    I also meant to share a quote I saw the other day that helped me which was “Don’t cling to a mistake, just because you spent a lot of time making it”.

    I can’t remember what it is, but I saw a term that described that concept a couple years ago.

    It may have been economic in nature, or the term started out being applicable to economics, but some people use it to describe other scenarios in life.

    But it described how people who have invested a lot of time in ‘X,’ even after they realize X is a horrible idea or whatever, will not give up X, only (or mainly), because they already spent a lot of time on X.

    Hi Daisy,

    What you are referring to is called “The Sunk Cost Fallacy”. It is an economic principle but its roots are psychological. The sunk cost fallacy affects people’s decision making process. Boy, does it ever apply to people sticking with cult-like mega churches. And those churches depend on that. They realize that once you have invested hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in one church you are much less likely to just walk away and start over again.

    However, when people find out their churches are actually cults and/or act in an abusive manner or have controlling policies in place, it is still better to just walk away no matter what you have previously invested. Chalk it up to experience and move on. Especially because the deeper you get into these churches the more resources they will drain from you and the harder it will be to leave later.

    For various reasons I have seen several hard-core families finally leave Gateway Church this year who have invested over 10 years of their lives and over a hundred thousand dollars each in that church. That is a lot to psychologically and emotionally walk away from. But the spiritual and financial vampirism never ends at these places, so stopping at 10 years and $100,000 is better than 20 years and $200,000. If people are in an abusive church – no matter what you have sunk in terms of resources into that decision – leave! As soon as possible!

  56. Dave A A wrote:

    06/23/15 Tweets “I’m so so sorry. I love you all…fade to black.”

    Dave, I talked to someone close to the situation about this quote after he tweeted this. It’s a quote from a song.

  57. Daisy wrote:

    From Page 5:

    D. Attitude
    A submissive attitude is very important among the worship team members. Speaking against the leadership will not be tolerated; neither will attitudes that have their own personal agenda. We are here to serve God through serving Pastor and this body and to be submissive to those over us

    When I read that I thought, ‘they don’t get it’. The ‘over us’ business is a myth ….. the early Christian people called their leaders ‘the servants of the Word’ and they were talking about Christ as ‘the Word’. Christ modeled a ‘servant role’ for his Apostles to follow, and the ‘over us’ thing is crazy when you think how these young YRR preachers would say they follow Him , and yet the only time Christ was ever ‘raised up’ was on a wooden cross.

    If there are ‘leaders’ in the Church, they MUST be servants. If there is a shepherd in charge of those ‘leaders’, he can be no more than a ‘Servant of the Servants of Christ’.

    This ‘raised up over’ model applies only to the Crucified Lord Who calls all men to Himself and leads them into life.
    Those who follow Him and serve Him are called to a life of humility and service to others in imitation of Him.

  58. M. Joy wrote:

    Deebs what is the Gabe meltdown on Twitter you mentioned in the article?

    I was part of this. He had tagged me on Twitter, sent me DMs on Twitter, sent me e-mails at my blog wanting me to call him. I said that I would early on (before the barrage). But then I started seeing what was happening. He was also harassing others as well, then posted a screenshot of my e-mail on Twitter, again tagging me multiple times. I tagged Tullian in a couple of tweets asking him to please tell his son to stop harassing people, that it was a form of cyber bullying (a while later I found out that Tullian blocked me). I told Gabe I would be reporting him to authorities if he continued. I also told Gabe that I was wrong to agree to talk with him originally – – that the issues I have are with Tullian, period. If Tullian had a problem with my articles, he was free to contact me.

    Eventually, Gabe stopped, removed the tweets. We have screenshots, so if it happens again, I will be reporting it. This could be serious because it goes across state lines. I’m sad that Gabe feels such a strong need to defend his dad. Tullian should be ashamed of himself.

  59. siteseer wrote:

    I wonder if he’s even really writing a book… or has a team of “research assistants” (ghost writers) been hired to write one for him?

    Probably!

  60. Stay tuned, I have at least 2-3 upcoming posts. I got hit with an infection nearly 4 wks post-surgery (hysterectomy) and just today starting my 2nd round of antibiotics, so I’m functioning a bit slowly.

    But I’ve been in contact with key people involved in this story for well over a year. The TT Twitter Posse girls and his fan club will not like me. I’m disgusted by his use of grace to have a sexual free-for-all.

  61. One of the little people wrote:

    Actually, Boz Tchividjian, Tullian’s brother, and head of GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in Christian Environments), has been a powerful and compassionate voice for victims of sexual abuse, especially in Christian communities. I respect him very much.

    Now that’s true. Boz has done some great work.

  62. Jack wrote:

    Again no surprise. This might be high treason here but I’ve never been a Billy Graham fan. Given some of the stuff, I’ve heard his son Franklin say, the decendents don’t seem impressive either. Ok, to be fair this is the only 2 I’ve heard too much about but it is the 3rd generation. Maybe there’s a sense of self importance passed along?

    I’ve never understood the big draw of Billy Graham. I went to one of his “crusades” when I was a young woman. The stadium was packed- with Christians. Large groups of believers had come from all the area churches. He gave a mediocre sermon about giving your life to Christ, nothing memorable, and everyone in that place was primed to jump up from their seats and go forward at the first sign he was giving the altar call. I mean, everyone in the whole place got up and streamed to the front. I guess everyone wanted to be able to say they had gone forward at a Billy Graham altar call? I didn’t get the point. I didn’t go forward; I already believed in the Lord and was doing my best to walk with him. I was one of a very few people still sitting in my seat. I honestly wonder if there was anyone in that whole stadium who was not already a Christian. Did they count all those people who went forward as “decisions for Christ”? I didn’t get it then and I don’t get it now.

    There do seem to have been problems with the extended family. Tullian’s mother was arrested for attacking his father on the road one time. Franklin is an embarrassment. But Boz, at least, stands out to me as someone who has devoted his life to a worthy cause.

  63. Julie Anne wrote:

    Stay tuned, I have at least 2-3 upcoming posts. I got hit with an infection nearly 4 wks post-surgery (hysterectomy) and just today starting my 2nd round of antibiotics, so I’m functioning a bit slowly.

    I’m so sorry to hear that! Hope you will be feeling better soon!

  64. M. Joy wrote:

    Don’t chase after Christian celebrities who don’t even practice what they preach.

    I’m with you, I simply don’t understand the celebrity culture. Is it something new in the last 50 years? TT should get out of the limelight and live a productive life that does not include monetizing his faith.

    The “Ex” in exPastors appears to be more about hiatus from the pastorate than putting it behind them. Why is it so important they be pastors? Are they unable to fulfill any other role or job in life? I don’t get the sense of entitlement with someone like TT and that more people are not turned off by his grubbing away to get back into a position of adulation. The title of one of ExPastors’ articles “God is Not Done with You Yet. And Neither Are We.” sounds like a recycling promotion, maybe ExPastors logo could be the recycling symbol with the tag line, “Don’t throw them out, Recycle”.

  65. I posted the following comment on Throckmorton’s site yesterday before they started deleting comments by folks from this website and His.

    I found the comments by Greg Atkinson, the Exec. Director at the site quite disturbing. They have shut down comments, so I cannot respond to him there, so I am forced to do it here. As other pointed out there before they were silenced, they are giving the spotlight to a fallen pastor and none at all to his actual victims. This is at least unwise and certainly not fair, at the worst is bad orthopraxy. Jesus is not a respecter of persons.

    “To all those (and you’re a minority) that seek to tear down Tullian and his story – using this forum as a place to spew vicious attacks and accusations, shame on you.” “That’s why we exist. To have real, genuine and honest conversations. NOT to judge and throw stones. Shame on you. Come on (small minority) – how self-righteous and pious can you be? Are you not aware of how you fall short? Do you know there is no such thing as big and small sins?” “ExPastors.com has a huge mission of offering help, hope and healing to all who come here.
    Let’s be a place that receives them well. All are welcome.” “And negative commenters and so called ‘haters,’ we love you, too. You are welcome to disagree and voice your disagreement. That’s your right.
    We try our best not to moderate comments unless they get vulgar or
    nasty.” – Greg Atkinson
    I saw no vicious attacks there, only valid points of the same kinds many of us make on this blog. The blindness of this man, he acts just like one of the many trolls that have come through this blog. He judges us and says shame on us. He says that we are self-righteous. He tells us not to throw stones as he is in the very act of throwing stones himself. This is clear hypocrisy and a logical fallacy to boot. He tells us “he loves us” after using the label of “haters.” He tells us that we are welcome to disagree and then they shut down the comments because they are not in control of the narrative. I have a very bad feeling in my stomach about the site. I would much rather direct people to fallenpastor.com there the guy who runs it does not give favored privileges to those who are famous. Ex-pastor is full of double-talk and actions that contradict their own words. There is nothing quite like a quick lie to really reveal motives over there.

  66. siteseer wrote:

    A good friend of mine was married to an abusive husband for many years. Whenever he was caught in the consequences of his own behavior, he would play the suicide card. Poor me, feel sorry for me, I’m so broken I’m actually thinking about ending it all.

    After our mother’s death, my NPD brother used to turn the suicide card/guilt manipulation on and off like a light switch. CLICK ON! CLICK OFF! CLICK ON! CLICK OFF!

  67. siteseer wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:

    I knew it, I knew it, I knew it! When I read the headline, I just knew he was writing a book. He’s now full of words like “repentance” and “God’s grace,” cheapening these phrases. It’s all about dollars.

    I wonder if he’s even really writing a book… or has a team of “research assistants” (ghost writers) been hired to write one for him?

    And who’s going to foot the bill for Result Source to juice it onto the best-seller lists?

  68. Julie Anne wrote:

    Tullian should be ashamed of himself.

    Tullian wipes his mouth and announces “I Have Not Sinned”.

    How can you be ashamed when You Can Do No Wrong?

  69. @ Julie Anne:
    That is a sad story. That’s also the son that got a teen girl pregnant. They later married, but it demonstrates that as a pastor Tullian perhaps didn’t have that much control over this children as required in 1 Timothy 3. I wouldn’t argue with a kid – even an adult kid like Gabe about their parents – but I think these rants of his demonstrate that Tullian perhaps shouldn’t have moved himself 1,200 miles from those kids.(2,400 RT). In the RNS article Tullian says how great they are doing, but outbursts like this, especially when Gabe has a baby of his own under his roof, seem to suggest otherwise.

    I understand that some marriages don’t work out. But while the marriage is physically dissolving and the family is being torn apart, that is simply not the best time for the adults in the family to bail and move far away. Kids need both parents more during this time of transition than any other time in their lives. Sure, they can text or FB. But when kids are hurting often it’s about what they are not saying, what they are not doing, what they are not eating, who they are no longer hanging out with, who they just started hanging out with, the hours they are not sleeping and all the expressions and other micro-clues that parents need to be physically present to tune in and pay attention to. My heart breaks for all of his kids. I think he needs to consider if being a pastor was ever really well suited for him.

    There are plenty of ways he could still contribute to the Kingdom that do not require him to be a pastor. It’s interesting how many of us have sat in meetings for years being told how valuable are contributions to the Kingdom when we sit on committees, write curriculum for classes, teach the classes, lead Bible studies and volunteer for all kinds of activities. It’s just great when laypeople do lay tasks. But when a mega-pastor falls, why is it that their being relegated to “lay tasks” that still “benefit the Kingdom so greatly”, suddenly don’t seem that worthy of the effort? A few of the more humble ones rise to the task, but I am talking celebrity pastors here. It feels like some want the pulpit or nothing. Maybe they need to spend some time thinking why that is so important to them, when God respects all levels and forms of service?

    Praying for a speedy recovery for you Julie Anne! You are brave to be addressing these issues during this time. Sharing the victims’ stories is so important, especially as this whole Celebrity Pastor Rehab machine keeps chugging away faster and faster after each new fall. It shows the other side – all the collateral damage these acts cause. Thank you for that.

  70. In the wake of a public confession of unfaithfulness to one’s spouse, perhaps a pastor who is ‘high profile’ is best to seek the privacy of confession to God and some serious time out for repentance.

    I don’t think the pastor should seek ‘publicity’ over his failures nor should he look to ‘explain away’ excuses by calling them ‘reasons’ . . . and looking for sympathy in extreme ways publicly is not in keeping with a season of serious repentance.

    Best thing for such a man is to ‘come away’ and find a sanctuary for private prayer and quiet contemplation before the Lord. No one can do this sort of thing as a ‘show’ in front of others, as the nature of it is not ‘social’, but more in the way of a time of being alone with God.

    We know that Our Lord Himself drew strength from quiet prayer in solitary settings before the important events of His life. Maybe for Tullian, a retreat to a sanctuary apart from all the noise and heat of public life. At least for a season.

  71. Jullie Anne I hope you feel better.

    Speaking of Billy Graham I always found the Nixon-Graham exchange quite interesting.

    https://youtu.be/9jNr0_AUSR0

    One tidbit from Mr Graham there are two different kinds of Jews one is called the synagog of Satan. I have personally heard people actually talk like this in person and really believe it, looking back it is quite scary.

  72. His whole approach reminds me of the ‘sorrow’ I heard from my Father as an adult, over how his alcoholism affected us as children…all I really heard was him trying to fix how bad HE felt, not how bad WE felt – a barely hidden ‘fix me fix me from the guilt I feel about you’. He just couldn’t seem to get his attention off himself.

    The pace of TT’s ‘turnaround’ here is also a dead giveaway… too fast, too public & too shaped towards the book he’s going to write.

  73. @ Christiane:

    Well, he was raised seriously protestant and I doubt that this as an initial approach would break through his self importance. It is too easy when talking to God (protestants in general don’t much use other people’s prayers from some prayer book or such) to spin the conversation as it were to ‘have mercy on poor pitiful me’ and such like ‘only You know how bad I feel’ and slide right into ‘it’s just You and me (Me?) Buddy against the world; I know that You will make it be okay for me, thank you Jesus.’ That is not repentance. That is trying to mend fences. I don’t know how God feels about that, but this does nothing for those he has injured or for the damage he has done to the Kingdom.

    No, I think he needs the protestant equivalent of penance, perhaps a night job stacking shelves at some grocery store. Wait, I got one, a job in housekeeping at some hospital. Mop those floors and wipe down those rooms. And he should do it at night and alone and in silence. And he should know that the room he cleans down is where some person died from some tragedy of his own making, someone who all the while was depending on Tullian’s hyper-grace ideas to tell him not to worry, it’s all good, God really is not disturbed by your foolishness; somebody who died without repentance just like Tullian seems to be living without repentance.

    And when he finally ‘gets it’ then and only then can he go off to his own metaphorical desert and pour out his new heart to Jesus and just maybe come away washed clean anew in the blood of Christ (to use some of the old terminology).

  74. okrapod wrote:

    No, I think he needs the protestant equivalent of penance, perhaps a night job stacking shelves at some grocery store. Wait, I got one, a job in housekeeping at some hospital. Mop those floors and wipe down those rooms.

    Good Morning, OKRAPOD
    well you might have something there, if what you want for this man is an opportunity to regain some sense of right relationship with Christ. There’s the story about Henri Nouwen who was becoming famous as a writer and theologian and was invited to speak and to teach at some very elite universities. All the fame became too much for him, and he decided to ‘get away’ and find some re-connection to God in a more meaningful setting . . . that the ‘fame’ thing wasn’t good for him in his soul. So, he left all the praise and honors behind and went to work in a facility for special needs people called L’Arche that was founded by his friend Jean Vanier. There, he washed, fed, and dressed and cared for a special needs man who was helpless. He remained there for a considerable time in service to those who were unable to care for themselves, doing menial tasks and all manner of care-giving. And he recovered the peace of his soul in that work.

    Maybe that is the kind of thing you want for Tullian. Something that helps him regain his OWN dignity in hard work and not from trading off of the fame of his grandfather? If that is what you are talking about, I think I understand you.

    ‘teshuva’ means ‘to turn again towards the Lord’ ….. the Quakers call it ‘coming down where we ought to be’, but whatever it is called, it means a return to the good way where peace of soul is possible.

  75. LT wrote:

    Tullian has someone take his picture in front of the Philly Rocky statue in a very triumphant pose that show no signs of this “brokeness”.

    Looks more like he’s posing for a picture for his account on an online dating site, bare midriff and all. This is a guy who seems in love with no one but himself, who worships no one but TT. I feel very sorry for the “Texas Honey”…

  76. Hi Folks,

    Just a note that Jeannette Altes, who posts here and is being treated for a tumor, was laid off from her job, and is looking for work needs help with her rent $565 which is due on Oct 1st. She received one donation. She is still short on the rest of the funds needed (several hundred dollars more – about $350.) She also needs groceries.

    https://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

    Billy (son) and his mom Marquis in Texas also need help with food and rent.
    They received one donation recently but need additional assistance.
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

    Thank you everyone for helping in whatever way you can, either financially or prayerfully – or both.

  77. LT wrote:

    What you are referring to is called “The Sunk Cost Fallacy”. It is an economic principle but its roots are psychological.

    AKA the “psychology of previous investment”.

  78. Daisy wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    I also meant to share a quote I saw the other day that helped me which was “Don’t cling to a mistake, just because you spent a lot of time making it”.

    I can’t remember what it is, but I saw a term that described that concept a couple years ago….
    But it described how people who have invested a lot of time in ‘X,’ even after they realize X is a horrible idea or whatever, will not give up X, only (or mainly), because they already spent a lot of time on X.

    Sunk costs. Gram mentioned it above. Same thing, that quote just helped me better to apply it to relationships for some reason.

  79. Mr. Jesperson wrote:

    Do you know there is no such thing as big and small sins?” “

    And a breath later they were talking about planks and logs…which are different sizes.

    Logic fail.

  80. siteseer wrote:

    Whenever he was caught in the consequences of his own behavior, he would play the suicide card. Poor me, feel sorry for me, I’m so broken I’m actually thinking about ending it all. After many years of this, she realized it was just a ploy, he had no intention of suicide.

    I think this is not an uncommon manipulative tactic. However a lot of people men in particular end things when their spouse or significant other leaves them. So I can understand why it works, because how can you tell? That would be a hard thing.

  81. siteseer wrote:

    LT wrote:
    Tullian talks more about spending two hours researching suicide and has some interesting things to say about any potential comeback. Readers need to read those parts carefully as Tullian is an expert in parsing words.
    A good friend of mine was married to an abusive husband for many years. Whenever he was caught in the consequences of his own behavior, he would play the suicide card. Poor me, feel sorry for me, I’m so broken I’m actually thinking about ending it all. After many years of this, she realized it was just a ploy, he had no intention of suicide.

    I read a very astute response to this type of emotional blackmail.

    If someone you know threatens suicide, the appropriate response is to ALWAYS call 911.

    If they are serious and in true danger, help is on the way.

    If they are merely trying to be manipulative, only they know for sure. Calling 911 let’s them know that you are taking them at their word and treating their threat with the seriousness that it deserves, so help is on the way. They may think twice before making such an empty threat again.

    Either way, it is not up to you to decide if a threat is real or manipulative.

  82. Lea wrote:

    I think this [threatening self-harm or even suicide] is not an uncommon manipulative tactic.

    I agree; it works on at least two levels as well. Firstly, if you don’t give me what I want, I’ll harm myself – so it’ll be your fault and my blood will be on your head. But in order really to work, I need first to’ve guilted, manipulated or otherwise suckered a whole load of people to sympathise with me. Then, they’ll gang up with me against you, and scold you for your callousness in allowing me to come to harm.

    When this sort of thing happens, the enablers are every bit as bad as the narcissist – they’re not just passively complicit in the abuse, in the sense of looking away or refusing to help – they’re actively complicit.

  83. I read yesterday in The Atlantic of EnlightenNext, an Eastern cult of which I had never heard. You read a bit about it and realize it’s not just Christian churches that spiritually abuse and financially fleece people: any “spiritual” system will work. Here, Christianity is the most common way to fleece because we are less apt to question a church and a pastor. I don’t think I’d ever be taken in by a so-called Eastern mystic–even if he is Andrew Cohen, a Jewish New Yorker. It’s not about trashing the Christian faith, it’s about exposing the fakes, the frauds, and the filchers, a job TWW does very well. Thanks, Dee and Deb.

  84. Remnant wrote:

    If someone you know threatens suicide, the appropriate response is to ALWAYS call 911.

    That is a reasonably good response. I had also thought maybe call the suicide hotline.

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Firstly, if you don’t give me what I want, I’ll harm myself – so it’ll be your fault and my blood will be on your head.

    And to add to this, there was a boy in my high school whose girlfriend broke up with him. He went over to her house and shot himself on her lawn. It was awful.

  85. brian wrote:

    Speaking of Billy Graham I always found the Nixon-Graham exchange quite interesting.

    And Harry Truman had Billy pegged from the early days of his ministry. Time Magazine says:
    “Long a spiritual adviser to people in power, Graham’s first visit to Washington to counsel a president didn’t go very well. After blabbing to the press about what he and Harry Truman had discussed, Truman blasted him as a “counterfeit” and a publicity hound.”

    Religion Dispatches states: “Graham has had a lifelong fascination with politics and especially with politicians. He agitated to get an audience with Harry Truman at the White House in 1950, an encounter that did not go well. The president was not impressed with the brash young evangelist, especially when Graham and his associates, playing to the press, later simulated the prayer they had with Truman on the White House lawn. When the photograph hit the newspapers the following day, the president was not amused.”

    That whole showy, fake prayer pose on the White House lawn – talk about making Christians look bad. Ugh.

  86. Dave A A wrote:

    So maybe his dark night of the soul was just that night of the 23d.

    Tullian is no St. John of the Cross. His “dark night” is of his own making, to be sure. I do not wish to cast aspersions, but when one invites public adulation for their public GospelTM ministry, one cannot refuse the subsequent scrutiny when one acts like a reprobate in private.

    Regarding his ‘suicidal’ thought, I noticed in the original article (at Expastors) that it was singular, and that he had neither ideation nor a plan – that is good. In my un-professional opinion, which would make me a qualified Biblical counselor, I believe that he briefly thought that killing himself would alleviate the pain he was feeling at the moment after being exposed to the public. That is a normal thought given the situation; I would probably think the same thing. However, since admitting to being ‘suicidal’ (which he has not but it how it is being received) he has been granted more exposure; therefore, I fully expect the story will change and grow, perhaps to the point that he was about to slit his wrists before God stopped him, a la Abraham and Isaac, and told him (TT) that He still had plans for him…

  87. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Firstly, if you don’t give me what I want, I’ll harm myself – so it’ll be your fault and my blood will be on your head. But in order really to work, I need first to’ve guilted, manipulated or otherwise suckered a whole load of people to sympathise with me. Then, they’ll gang up with me against you, and scold you for your callousness in allowing me to come to harm.

    You’ve been reading from my brother’s 1976-vintage playbook, haven’t you?
    (I was his special hobby for 15+ years; that is EXACTLY how he played us after Mom’s death. The same Loving Devoted Faithful Son who when she was in her room dying of cancer and calling for something, just went into his room and turned the stereo up so he didn’t have to hear her. Mom didn’t get assistance until I came home.)

  88. @ Robin C.:
    Do not feel stupid for being deceived. I, too, was a supporter of TT and even wrote a post defending him during The Gospel™Coalition dustup. I loved the way he spoke about grace. I still believe in much of what he said. However, he used grace as an excuse to live poorly and have more than one affair. My guess is that there was more going on than just the affairs.

    Grace is freeing. But grace should always remind us of why we need grace.TT seems to have forgotten that in his activities.

  89. mirele wrote:

    Should we expect him to pop up with a shiny new ordination from somewhere, tanned, rested and ready to start a new church?

    Notice he is in Texas, the home of Robert Morris who was instrumental in the Driscoll comeback.

  90. @ Elizabeth Lee:
    Yep. And some of the dudebros on Expositors actually tried to tell everyone that his kids are fine. After Gabe Tchividjian’s meltdown on Twitter, they are delusional.

    It makes me wonder how many of these men on Expositors are divorced and have moved away from their kids.

  91. Julie Anne wrote:

    Stay tuned, I have at least 2-3 upcoming posts. I got hit with an infection nearly 4 wks post-surgery (hysterectomy) and just today starting my 2nd round of antibiotics, so I’m functioning a bit slowly.

    Sorry to hear this, JA. hope you are feeling better soon and the antibiotics do their thang!

  92. @ Julie Anne:
    JA-I hope you recuperate quickly. I am so sorry about the infection.

    I am so glad that you have been in contact with these women. I know you have been an awesome source of support. Needless to say, I cannot wait for you posts!

  93. Lea wrote:

    ‘two years’ on the expastor site?

    Yeah-they did. This alone demonstrates that they do not understand the situation….or are trying to deep six the situation.

    TTs post truly angered me. It was all about him. The picture that was sent to me that I posted above is him during the time he was supposedly crying on the floor. I dp not believe his narrative. I am convinced that he is a chronic liar.

  94. Burwell wrote:

    In my un-professional opinion, which would make me a qualified Biblical counselor, I believe that he briefly thought that killing himself would alleviate the pain he was feeling at the moment after being exposed to the public.

    In an article in 2015 I quoted above he said he merely ‘understood’ why people commit suicide. So, this is probably a slightly puffed up version of that.

  95. Burwell wrote:

    that he had neither ideation nor a plan

    I do want to say that if he was really research methods, that’s getting pretty close to a plan…(but I am rather skeptical).

  96. I read Billy Graham’s book called Just As I Am. My daughter read it as well. In the book, he admits that he was not a great dad. He was never around. He even admitted to not recognizing his 4 year old daughter when he returned from a trip.

    My daughter mentioned this in a class in her Christian high school. The teacher was upset and said she was besmirching Billy Graham’s good name. I called the teacher and told him to get his facts straight. Billy was a good evangelist but a lousy father and he even said so.

  97. LT wrote:

    Mark Driscoll did something extremely similar to this (and was continuing his “feel sorry for me” Victim Tour at the Leadnet 400 Gathering just this week) that we can learn from. In October 2014 http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/10/20/mark-driscoll-rocks-the-gateway-conference/ Driscoll made his triumphant “resurgence” at Gateway’s Pastor’s Conference to the thunderous applause of 4,000 pastors supporting immediate restoration. And that’s what this was. Robert Morris flatly said that in the introduction. He sternly chided that Christians needed to stop “shooting their own wounded” and not “crucify” Mark since “someone’s already been crucified for him. The other choice is we could restore him with a spirit of gentleness”. Morris never once mentioned any Mars Hill victims and has never met with any of them.

    I’ve been in front of Driscoll’s church every Sunday except three for the last six months and in that entire time, I have never seen Mark Driscoll. Never. He’s never bothered to introduce himself to me and I am at least as faithful as his most faithful church attendees, just in a way he doesn’t like.

    One of my signs says, “Scottsdale is not ‘Business as Usual,'” and that’s true, despite what Mark Driscoll thinks. I want the record to show I have objected to his presence from the moment he first set up shop in Scottsdale. He has unfinished business in Seattle.

  98. Dave A A wrote:

    06/30/15 Quoting and then thanking Tripp.

    Dave A A wrote:

    BTW pastor tchenanigans seems to have been detwittered now, as someone threatened him with yesterday. But I saw the pic with Rocky, too.

    You made me laugh with the dark night of the soul quote. I remember sitting in the hospital room with my daughter when she was 3 years old and suffering from her brain tumor. I thought then that the quote was appropriate to our situation. TT caused his situation and could have resolved it. There was nothing I could do to resolve our situation except to pray and wait.

    I did not know that about Tchenanigans. I have corresponded with him. If TT was behind it, then he is sinking even lower than i could have imagined.

  99. dee wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    ‘two years’ on the expastor site?

    Yeah-they did.

    That’s when he was caught in the first affair, that iirc the elders knew but they didn’t tell anybody about? So it seems incredibly deceitful to me to refer to 2 years ago, when he didn’t see any consequences until last year, and really didn’t see full consequences until 6 months ago. He was being deceitful up to that point! I think they hadn’t even told his wife about the first(*known*) affair.

    And as far as consequences go, he JUST got remarried too.

  100. Godith wrote:

    I read yesterday in The Atlantic of EnlightenNext, an Eastern cult of which I had never heard. You read a bit about it and realize it’s not just Christian churches that spiritually abuse and financially fleece people: any “spiritual” system will work. Here, Christianity is the most common way to fleece because we are less apt to question a church and a pastor. I don’t think I’d ever be taken in by a so-called Eastern mystic–even if he is Andrew Cohen, a Jewish New Yorker. It’s not about trashing the Christian faith, it’s about exposing the fakes, the frauds, and the filchers, a job TWW does very well. Thanks, Dee and Deb.

    Cohen is also on a Please Forgive Me tour. People are vocally and viscerally telling him to Go Away, because like Tullian, Cohen is making it All About Him and not his victims.

  101. I feel some sorrow for any person who commits sin and faces the consequences of that – even ex pastors who have committed adultery.

    But my feeling of sadness for them does not corrupt my judgment about their capacity to teach, lead etc. Most of these guys will try this gig, as TT is doing. It’s not good for him, the church, or the people he hurt.

    This happens across denominational boundaries. In the SBC, the guy that followed Criswell at First Baptist Dallas, Joel Gregory, also had a moral failure. At first he went to a secular job, which I thought was good. I know he wrote a book and tried to cash in on that. He may be back in “ministry” now.

    It’s all very sad.

  102. Anonymous wrote:

    This happens across denominational boundaries. In the SBC, the guy that followed Criswell at First Baptist Dallas, Joel Gregory, also had a moral failure. At first he went to a secular job, which I thought was good. I know he wrote a book and tried to cash in on that. He may be back in “ministry” now.

    From his website, https://www.gregoryministries.org/,

    Dr. Joel C. Gregory holds the George W. Truett Endowed Chair in Preaching and Evangelism at the George W. Truett Theological Seminary of Baylor University. Last year he spoke or taught 170 times in 32 churches and 20 conferences in 18 states, Greece and Oxford, UK.

  103. Anonymous wrote:

    But my feeling of sadness for them does not corrupt my judgment about their capacity to teach, lead etc

    Several comments on his ‘expastors’ article said there would be no problem with him being back in ministry! because we have all sinned, and all that matters, apparently, is that you are not actively sinning at this exact second. Because grace.

  104. Burwell wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    This happens across denominational boundaries. In the SBC, the guy that followed Criswell at First Baptist Dallas, Joel Gregory, also had a moral failure. At first he went to a secular job, which I thought was good. I know he wrote a book and tried to cash in on that. He may be back in “ministry” now.

    From his website, https://www.gregoryministries.org/,

    Dr. Joel C. Gregory holds the George W. Truett Endowed Chair in Preaching and Evangelism at the George W. Truett Theological Seminary of Baylor University. Last year he spoke or taught 170 times in 32 churches and 20 conferences in 18 states, Greece and Oxford, UK.

    Cha-Ching$$$$$

    And even at the Moderate Baptist haven, no less.

    Who says the Calvinists have cornered the market on this kind of stuff?

    Or it’s only easily manipulated churches that do this? Why, I have been told that the seminary at Baylor is a good and sophisticated place.

    Even Mohler has ousted professors and administrators with moral problems like this.

  105. Daisy wrote:

    It may have been economic in nature, or the term started out being applicable to economics, but some people use it to describe other scenarios in life.

    It is the sunk cost fallacy I referred to in my comment above. It is an economic term but refers to human behavior under certain circumstances. Of course, *all* economics is about human behavior, specifically human behavior in a fallen world of scarcity. Anyway, when we have invested resources (money, talent, emotion) in something that has not paid off, we may well continue to invest in it in the hope of recovering our investment. It is best to recognize a bad investment as a bad investment and move on. The rational thing to do is find other investments that look promising. However, walking away from a bad investment requires frank acknowledgment that we have failed to make a wise decision (shame) or that we somehow do *not* have control over all possible outcomes (fear.) That is the psychological hurdle that people have a lot of trouble with.

    Someone else has probably answered this already, so apologies for repeating, but I thought since I brought it up…

  106. Putting predators and victims in the same group makes for a messy mix (@ Expastors). I wrote about how that is exactly what a pastor is–i.e. predator–when cheating with a congregant (http://www.divorceminister.com/affair-or-predation-on-ministerial-sexual-misconduct/).

    When you collapse the distinction between a victim and a predator, you cannot give competent pastoral care, IMO. They need distinctly different approaches. A predator needs confrontation and brokenness–i.e. to be humbled as their sin comes from arrogance and entitlement. A victim needs to be lifted up and encouraged. It matters which one is primarily here.

  107. ION:

    We have a brief weather-window at the moment in the Forth Valley (been rather changeable over the last week), so I’m going to cut the back lawn.

    IHTIH

  108. Divorce Minister wrote:

    When you collapse the distinction between a victim and a predator, you cannot give competent pastoral care, IMO.

    On a more important note, this deserves repeating.

  109. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote:
    When you collapse the distinction between a victim and a predator, you cannot give competent pastoral care, IMO.

    On a more important note, this deserves repeating.

    I agree. It’s surreal to read the comments at that expastor site because people who were burned out are considered the same as people who had affairs! It seems like some tacit approval that having affairs is just part of ministry burnout. That is an incredibly damaging notion.

  110. Writing a book? Seems to me that all the Graham clan are real good at cashing in at this God business.No disrespect toward God meant with my comment but I have had it with these charlatans.

  111. @ LT:
    See, I knew someone would explain what I was talking about! Thanks for this comment making explicit the way this works out in religious circumstances. Also, thanks for the comment about Driscoll, even though the tale is so sordid.

  112. I know the area very well where TT lives. The Woodlands, in Texas, is on the north side of Houston. It’s a very expensive community to live in. A relative a mine by marriage lives there. This community is very elite. This is where the doctors, lawyers, up and coming and very rich people live. I agree with others, I never liked Billy Graham. I liked the music at his crusades, but that was about it. I never understood why so many people liked the Reverend Billy Graham. I guess if TT needs to get away for a retreat, he could go back to grandpa Billy’s place. I will definitely stay away from the Woodlands area. It’s about a 4 hr drive from me. But for TT to get to where Robert Morris preaches, maybe about 3 1/2 hrs or so. A very easy drive on interstate highways.

  113. Gram3 wrote:

    It is the sunk cost fallacy I referred to in my comment above.

    Anyway, when we have invested resources (money, talent, emotion) in something that has not paid off, we may well continue to invest in it in the hope of recovering our investment.

    Walking away from a bad investment requires frank acknowledgment that we have failed to make a wise decision (shame) or that we somehow do *not* have control over all possible outcomes (fear.) That is the psychological hurdle that people have a lot of trouble with.

    And which makes the Sunk Cost Fallacy the BFF of every con man, swindler, and grafter. Get the mark invested so deep in the con (financially and emotionally) that he cannot back out, even when he knows he’s being taken to the cleaners.

  114. Harley wrote:

    I know the area very well where TT lives. The Woodlands, in Texas, is on the north side of Houston. It’s a very expensive community to live in. A relative a mine by marriage lives there. This community is very elite. This is where the doctors, lawyers, up and coming and very rich people live.

    And where EVERYBODY is Led By GAWD to plant a new Megachurch.

  115. Godith wrote:

    You read a bit about it and realize it’s not just Christian churches that spiritually abuse and financially fleece people: any “spiritual” system will work. Here, Christianity is the most common way to fleece because we are less apt to question a church and a pastor.

    And it’s our culture’s majority religion, not some exotic foreign import.

  116. dee wrote:

    @ One of the little people:
    I agree. Boz is quite different than some of the other name dropping relatives. He is a decent man and I can assure you that he would never support what is going on.

    Like the one Borgia who became a saint or the one Capone who became a Federal cop?

  117. Lea wrote:

    Several comments on his ‘expastors’ article said there would be no problem with him being back in ministry! because we have all sinned, and all that matters, apparently, is that you are not actively sinning at this exact second. Because grace.

    And, from what I gather reading scripture, God does have a problem with this. Grace is about salvation it is not about dismissing bad actions and one’s character history. Why is this so hard to grasp for some?

  118. Burwell wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:
    This happens across denominational boundaries. In the SBC, the guy that followed Criswell at First Baptist Dallas, Joel Gregory, also had a moral failure. At first he went to a secular job, which I thought was good. I know he wrote a book and tried to cash in on that. He may be back in “ministry” now.
    From his website, https://www.gregoryministries.org/,
    Dr. Joel C. Gregory holds the George W. Truett Endowed Chair in Preaching and Evangelism at the George W. Truett Theological Seminary of Baylor University. Last year he spoke or taught 170 times in 32 churches and 20 conferences in 18 states, Greece and Oxford, UK.

    You should read his book. It is quite instructive on how people get caught up in the machine. He is one of the rare ones who walked away….literally. I had to buy a used one years ago on Amazon. I certainly don’t think he cashed in on the book. Look at the copyright date.

    If what he wrote about Criswell is true, the guy was a bonafide fruitcake. It is also instructive on the earlier years of Patterson always one step ahead of the firing ax. There is a section in there on the famous airport meeting he attended with Charles Stanley (“those who go against me get cancer or lose their jobs”), Adrian Rogers, Criswell, Patterson and more. Criswell was trying to get rid of Patterson.

    I am a bit amused Anonymous is referring to him and/or the others as moderates. Anything to make the Neo Cals not look so bad. It has nothing to do with liberal, moderate or conservative. But little men who crave power and control all the way around. They come in all shapes and sizes from many places in our society.

    I give Gregory credit for walking away from all the money, perks and freebies and selling cemetery plots at that time. You don’t see that very often these days. I have not kept up with him. At least he was able to use his PhD at the “moderate” Baylor? Ha!

  119. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    When this sort of thing happens, the enablers are every bit as bad as the narcissist – they’re not just passively complicit in the abuse, in the sense of looking away or refusing to help – they’re actively complicit.

    Excellent comment. Enablers have bought The Lie Narrative of an expert liar who has made it through life on lies that usually work to get him/her what they want. The Lie Narrative is designed to make the enablers feel righteous for aiding the Poor Victim. Regrettably, most enablers refuse to see their role in The Lie Narrative. The ones who do have frequently, nevertheless, participated in great harm done to the real victims. This I know from personal experience.

  120. @ LT:
    The comparison with Driscoll is most apt. Even down to duping Paul Tripp, who neglected the advice of The Who to get down on his “knees and pray– We don’t get fooled again!”

  121. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Get the mark invested so deep in the con (financially and emotionally) that he cannot back out, even when he knows he’s being taken to the cleaners.

    Yes, and I’ll bet that you experienced as a child another form of this. Maybe you thought that if you did a little more that your mother would not blame you and would see past your brother’s pretense. Abused husbands and wives also fall into the trap. If we go to some more counseling, he/she will stop abusing me and/or the kids. Or if I submit more or try to be Jesus more. Same dynamic.

  122. Lydia wrote:

    Burwell wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:
    This happens across denominational boundaries. In the SBC, the guy that followed Criswell at First Baptist Dallas, Joel Gregory, also had a moral failure. At first he went to a secular job, which I thought was good. I know he wrote a book and tried to cash in on that. He may be back in “ministry” now.
    From his website, https://www.gregoryministries.org/,
    Dr. Joel C. Gregory holds the George W. Truett Endowed Chair in Preaching and Evangelism at the George W. Truett Theological Seminary of Baylor University. Last year he spoke or taught 170 times in 32 churches and 20 conferences in 18 states, Greece and Oxford, UK.

    You should read his book. It is quite instructive on how people get caught up in the machine. He is one of the rare ones who walked away….literally. I had to buy a used one years ago on Amazon. I certainly don’t think he cashed in on the book. Look at the copyright date.

    If what he wrote about Criswell is true, the guy was a bonafide fruitcake. It is also instructive on the earlier years of Patterson always one step ahead of the firing ax. There is a section in there on the famous airport meeting he attended with Charles Stanley (“those who go against me get cancer or lose their jobs”), Adrian Rogers, Criswell, Patterson and more. Criswell was trying to get rid of Patterson.

    I am a bit amused Anonymous is referring to him and/or the others as moderates. Anything to make the Neo Cals not look so bad. It has nothing to do with liberal, moderate or conservative. But little men who crave power and control all the way around. They come in all shapes and sizes from many places in our society.

    I give Gregory credit for walking away from all the money, perks and freebies and selling cemetery plots at that time. You don’t see that very often these days. I have not kept up with him. At least he was able to use his PhD at the “moderate” Baylor? Ha!

    Lydia:

    I have not read his book. I am sure there are some interesting things in it about a lot of people. Not sure I would know whether to believe them or not.

    But I don’t give Gregory much credit for anything.

    As you know, he stayed on the fence in the SBC battle a LONG time. Until it was basically over, and then rushed in to join the winning side.

    “Gregory Ministries”

    Endowed Chair

    Spoke 170 times last year in 32 churches and 20 conferences (you know – the dreaded conferences!), including conferences overseas – just like Mahaney etc.!

    Cha-Ching$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    If he has taken a vow of poverty and gives all of his earnings to the poor – I’ll give him credit 🙂

  123. @ Anonymous:I don’t know anything about him leading up to the CR “winning” side. He gives a bit of his background in different churches in the DFW area. I know nothing about their leanings during the CR.

    If what you say is true about Gregory…then what does that say about the great leader Criswell who seemed to think he was qualified to preach at FBCDallas? Right? Surely Patterson, who was running Criswell College at the time, would have ratted him out as a phony conservative? After all, that is what they were known for doing.

    Hmm. Maybe those were not the qualifications they really cared about after waging that war?

    Me thinks you have opened an unintentional can of worms. For me, Gregory was nothing but another source for an insider account. If 1/4 of what he wrote about Criswell is true…it s bad enough. The man was a dictatorial good old boy who was a segregationist until he saw the “winning side”. If Gregory is a phony, and he might be, he certainly met his match with Criswell!

  124. Anonymous wrote:

    If he has taken a vow of poverty and gives all of his earnings to the poor – I’ll give him credit

    Like Mohler has done over promoting and protecting those who protect pedophiles?

  125. Burwell wrote:

    I believe that he briefly thought that killing himself would alleviate the pain he was feeling at the moment after being exposed to the public.

    I think you’re correct. This was immediately after he lost his job and, at least according to his social media, he was back up and running within a week.

  126. Anonymous wrote:

    Spoke 170 times last year in 32 churches and 20 conferences (you know – the dreaded conferences!), including conferences overseas – just like Mahaney etc.!

    I am going to look him up. It just occurred to me you might not like what he is saying. In the past you certainly have not had a problem with all the conferences and big money coming out of the Neo Cal movement although you finally…. finally…. found Driscoll and Mahaney embarrassments. Hmm.

  127. From the main article up top:
    When adultery occurs, three of the Ten Commandments are broken: you shall not commit adultery, not lie, and not covet your neighbor’s spouse. Dennis Hollinger, The Meaning of Sex…

    Great link! Loved the pithy aphorisms from non-evangelical sources.

  128. Edward wrote:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/09/27/tullian-tchividjian-posts-at-expastor-com/

    Report from Warren Throckmorton- Tullian’s “repentance” on ExPastor’s. com is indeed a book excerpt.

    So this Ex-Pastor article was first written (not published ) and circulated internally back in March 2016. From Patheos:
    “Apparently, this expastor.com article is a re-worked segment of an upcoming book, tentatively titled, Finding Grace in a Hopeless Place. The last paragraph in the March version reads:

    This is a book about sin and grace, desperation and deliverance. This is a book about brokenness and the glorious fact that God’s grace runs downhill and meets us at the bottom in ways that we simply cannot know or experience when we’re at the top. This is a book about finding grace in a hopeless place.

    The two documents aren’t identical but the latter appears to be a re-written version of the former. In the March text, this paragraph again falsely quotes Winston Churchill but does not mention a suicide note.”

    What happened back in March 2016? The pastors and elders at Willow Creek, the church in the Orlando area that hired Tullian after he was defrocked at his Ft Lauderdale Church, found out that Tullian had lied to them all and had concealed multiple affairs. Willow Creek LOST members over sticking their necks out for Tullian and that is how he repaid their generosity and kindness.

    And here’s Tullian just waiting in the weeds to reboot his career prior to the book launch. The revelation of even more adulterous affairs appears to have scuttled the March “celebrity pastor rehab” publicity launch and Ex-Pastors and Tullian seem to have patiently waited for another 6 months for people to recover from his most recent round of lies and sexual abuse of congregants. Now that 6 months, has passed, Tullian/Ex-Pastors cleverly add the “suicide” angle, likely to dissuade readers from asking questions or criticizing Tullian over his past actions, then they go to print. If Tullian and his press guys left this out back in March, how threatening or significant could that event have been? Kind of like “forgetting” your several weeks of “hysterical blindness” for two years?

    This IS a total PR job just like with Mark Driscoll – down to waiting the additional 6 months for the most recent scandal to settle, adding the suicide note story to silence questions and criticism, shutting down comments on the first article, suspending the Tullian parody account, Tullian Tchananagans, marrying his groupie to justify that the outside of marriage sex was okay since it was true love, and immediately launching the RNS article two days after EX-Pastors to really push back the critics.

    The RNS article title is “Billy Graham’s Grandson on his Near Suicide and Whether he’s Planning a Comeback” Now the “suicide angle” which wasn’t worthy of mentioning 6 months ago is the HEADLINE. RNS also highlights this is Billy Graham’s grandson in the title, so people will show more respect for the grandson of the dying king of revivals. RNS’ publicity fluff piece adds some bonus features about how the lies and affairs apparently HELPED Tullian’s kids as they are “doing better than I ever imagined” and Tullian’s “relationship is tight and deeper (with them) than it’s ever been”. Hurray! Maybe his new book will recommend adultery and moving the dad to the other side of the country for all Christian families, to strengthen their relationships. Tullian, you’re such a great dad and pastor!

    The second section of the article, right after the suicide bit, is all about the “ugly responses” from people. Merritt gives Tullian a lot of ink to air his grievances and paint the responders as bad Christians.

    Folks, this is a PR piece for Tullian’s new book (working title) Finding Grace in a Hopeless Place. The Christian audience is getting played. Religious News Service is doing Tullian’s bidding just like The Christian Post does Mark Driscoll’s bidding every time they run columns with MD giving advice. PR guys and lawyers behind the scenes are maneuvering all of this. This is so manipulative. Shame on anyone who buys this book and underwrites Tullian’s disgraceful treatment of his flock and family. They are helping to bring down Christendom.

  129. LT wrote:

    In the March text, this paragraph again falsely quotes Winston Churchill but does not mention a suicide note.”

    I’m just going to say, I think the suicide note is a lie. Last year he said he ‘understood’ the hopelessness that suicidal people feel but he never felt it himself. Now he says otherwise.

  130. @ Bridget:
    At the time of the first scandal all three were teens. The oldest was out of high school. The middle son was in high school and the youngest, the daughter, was 14 so either 8th or 9th grade. Very transitional and important time for kids to have a father somewhere in the metropolitan area, which he wasn’t. I blame Willow Creek for supporting that. Tullian could have worked for them online and via Skype meetings, if they wanted to support a brother. They said he was mainly writing curriculum so he could have done that work online and attended occasional meetings. WC shouldn’t have aided him in moving nearly 200 miles away. They were also helping Tullian avoid going through a local restoration process, just like with Mark Driscoll. This avoiding accountability thing, doesn’t help anyone.

  131. dee wrote:

    I read Billy Graham’s book called Just As I Am. My daughter read it as well. In the book, he admits that he was not a great dad. He was never around. He even admitted to not recognizing his 4 year old daughter when he returned from a trip.

    My daughter mentioned this in a class in her Christian high school. The teacher was upset and said she was besmirching Billy Graham’s good name. I called the teacher and told him to get his facts straight. Billy was a good evangelist but a lousy father and he even said so.

    That has been the case with many “good men o’ God.” I remember reading about AW Tozer’s wife and how she said he was a pretty lousy husband. Her second husband was much more loving. Those kind of things always stuck out at me even as a kid and I never could think of those “great men” in quite the same light again.

  132. Lea wrote:

    I’m just going to say, I think the suicide note is a lie. Last year he said he ‘understood’ the hopelessness that suicidal people feel but he never felt it himself. Now he says otherwise.

    That would perfectly explain why this story wasn’t in the March version, prior to the discovery of his previous, non-retaliatory affairs with congregants. Once he had to cover for multiple disqualifying acts, more affairs and even lies to the church helping him, the stakes needed to be raised. It makes you wonder if DeMoss and Swicegood have large glass bowls on their desks filled with “I’m the victim, you can’t criticize me or you’re a monster” narratives. Their clients can just pull one out and voila! Back in business. I personally prefer the hysterical blindness one. It really speaks to all the severe trauma and PTSD war like situation that Mark D had to endure at the hands of those barbarians. I wonder how much these guys laugh over their tithe funded Ruth’s Chris dinners while making this stuff up? Thanks for sharing this! It helps people better understand how manipulative this whole thing is.

  133. Dave A A wrote:

    @ Julie Anne:
    The thought just occurred– maybe he’s doing a preemptive strike now before you can get victims’ stories out there?

    He doesn’t like me. I know that for a fact and have seen screenshots to prove it. He’s not going to stop this angry redhead. Social media gives the little people (I really am not little – lol) a much bigger playing field.

  134. LT wrote:

    I blame Willow Creek for supporting that. Tullian could have worked for them online and via Skype meetings, if they wanted to support a brother.

    Yes. but here’s what I don’t get. Why does an adulterous pastor get provided with a job and support? Does Willow Creek do that for adulterous pewpeons? I understand wanting to support his wife and kids, but him? I must be missing something.

  135. Lydia wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    Spoke 170 times last year in 32 churches and 20 conferences (you know – the dreaded conferences!), including conferences overseas – just like Mahaney etc.!

    I am going to look him up. It just occurred to me you might not like what he is saying. In the past you certainly have not had a problem with all the conferences and big money coming out of the Neo Cal movement although you finally…. finally…. found Driscoll and Mahaney embarrassments. Hmm.

    What are you talking about?

    I have never expressed any support for Driscoll and Mahaney. You are confusing me with someone else.

    Well, you are the one who read Joel Gregory’s book, and give him credit. Maybe because you like what he says.

    The bottom line is that guys like Joel Gregory and TT are in the same boat. Guys who violated their vows but then try to use that and get back in the limelight.

    If you want to give Joel Gregory some exemption, work as hard as you like but I am not buying it.

    Cha-Ching$$$$$$

  136. Harley wrote:

    But for TT to get to where Robert Morris preaches, maybe about 3 1/2 hrs or so. A very easy drive on interstate highways.

    Gateway’s PR guru and head of GW Media, Lawrence Swicegood has spent the last several months as Franklin Graham’s frontman for FG’s 50 state Decision America tour. Franklin preached at Gateway’s last pastor’s conference. Robert Morris declares that he came forward to be saved several times at each of the Billy Graham Crusades (once again calling the large number of people Graham “saved” into question). Robert Morris LOVES Billy Graham. He speaks about receiving a bookfrp, Franklin last year that was signed by Billy that looked like “chicken scratch” but how valuable it was to him since it came from one of the best theologians, revivalists and men of gawd. Then, I kid you not, he told the 4,000 pastors at this conference that he would be in the lobby signing HIS books so they too could get a piece of history in the making.

    Six months as a starting point for “pastoral restoration” is the way of Gateway and ARC. Notice Dustin Boles’ recent offer for ARC Restoration to return to church ministry was offered to start in January 2017, 6 months after Dustin’s most recent sexual assaults of congregants. That 3.5 hour drive could be a comin’! Next week Oct 3-5 is the big Gateway Pastor’s Conference. Could we see the likes of Perry Noble or Tullian “unexpectedly” taking the mic again, like Driscoll two years ago? Gateway attendance went from growing 23% a year prior to the Driscoll debacle to under 4%, so maybe not. It depends who wins the tug of war – Robert Morris or his nearly 40 person Accounting Department.

  137. Harley wrote:

    know the area very well where TT lives. The Woodlands, in Texas, is on the north side of Houston. It’s a very expensive community to live in. A relative a mine by marriage lives there. This community is very elite. This is where the doctors, lawyers, up and coming and very rich people live.

    The Woodlands is a very posh area. But just as important, it is also home to some very prominent movers and shakers. Ted Cruz holds some big fundraisers in that area. I believe Enron executives lived there as well. Tullian will build some significant connections there. He chose well from among his groupies.

  138. Gram3 wrote:

    Yes. but here’s what I don’t get. Why does an adulterous pastor get provided with a job and support? Does Willow Creek do that for adulterous pewpeons? I understand wanting to support his wife and kids, but him? I must be missing something.

    The head pastor there was a mentor to Tullian back in his seminary days. Maybe he felt some responsibility for what happened. He should have felt a greater sense of responsibility to his flock, first and foremost. The Billy Graham mystique is also a huge pull for some of these guys who will do anything to feel a connection to the great BG. When you have a large staff it’s not that difficult to add another person to the payroll. Church payrolls are often used as a sort of benevolence fund. I get why they may have wanted to help him out financially. I just don’t get why they put a sexually predatory pastor among their staff and flock and helped Tullian to move 200 miles from his family?

  139. Anonymous wrote:

    I have never expressed any support for Driscoll and Mahaney. You are confusing me with someone else.

    Parsing. You were a big defender for Mohler when people were trying hard to get the word out about SGMsurvivors and Acts 29.

    Every adulterer is a coward. IMO. Period.

    But it never ceases to amaze me the evils pastors and other religious leaders can get by with….. except adultery.

    Even pedophiles and their protectors are given a bigger pass in those circles. It is truly baffling.

  140. LT wrote:

    they put a sexually predatory pastor among their staff and flock

    I bet they don’t see him as a predator. They see him as a lovely man of gawd who just got pulled into sexual sin by all the jezebels hanging around churches (put there by satan) just waiting to lead them away. They also seem to have bought the Adam defense (‘my wife did it first’).

  141. Lydia wrote:

    But it never ceases to amaze me the evils pastors and other religious leaders can get by with….. except adultery.

    Beat your wife to a bloody pulp? Cool. Cheat on her? Not cool.

    You know, I was thinking the expastors site included an awful lot of adulterers, maybe it’s because that is literally the only way you become an ‘ex’pastor. Except Driscoll, who managed to be awful enough to get kicked out without that particular issue, which tells you who truly bad he must have been!

  142. Anonymous wrote:

    You are confusing me with someone else.

    If you use a handle like ‘Anonymous’ you really ought to expect being confused with someone else now and then. Just sayin’…

  143. LT wrote:

    I just don’t get why they put a sexually predatory pastor among their staff and flock and helped Tullian to move 200 miles from his family?

    Perhaps they didn’t know exactly who they were dealing with. I do not think pastors are well-trained in understanding abuse systems, manipulative behavior, narcissism, etc. Many pastors are well-intentioned in wanting to help someone, but when you are talking about narcissism, even mental health professionals have difficulty.

  144. Lydia wrote:

    But it never ceases to amaze me the evils pastors and other religious leaders can get by with….. except adultery.

    Even pedophiles and their protectors are given a bigger pass in those circles. It is truly baffling.

    Lea wrote:

    Beat your wife to a bloody pulp? Cool. Cheat on her? Not cool.

    It really is a bizarrely skewed religion. On the one hand, its proponents will claim that all ‘sin’ is the same, and yet on the other?; they’ll treat consensual sexual indiscretions as the theeee worst peccadillo there is…

  145. Julie Anne wrote:

    Perhaps they didn’t know exactly who they were dealing with. I do not think pastors are well-trained in understanding abuse systems, manipulative behavior, narcissism, etc. Many pastors are well-intentioned in wanting to help someone, but when you are talking about narcissism, even mental health professionals have difficulty.

    I think this is a major weakness in current training of leaders (and I worked in/around a seminary for 11 years so I walked with many students and professors through ministry situations). Current and future leaders are rarely taught about systems, or spiritual abuse, or how to do the equivalent of investigative reporting to check on the real situation with someone’s so-called reputation.

    I can easily understand how a leader can be taken in — when the picture that gets presented seems like a vulnerable, truthful image of what has gone on. Due diligence in fact-checking would’ve helped show whether the picture is complete, or “cropped” and “spiritually photoshopped” to obscure the other people who were victimized by that person, or key details or “off” theology that would utterly change the interpretation of the person’s reputation from positive to them being someone destructive. Without checking out details and discerning the real full picture, people will end up being harmed — despite any good the person in question might do.

    If you’re familiar with Barb Orlowski’s research, recall that her survey was not just about generic victims of spiritual abuse and how they recover, but about pastors and other staff members or ministry volunteers who ended up being victimized by spiritually abusive other leaders, board members, staff, etc. It seems to me that those of us in this situation of leadership who become victims often come to a realization of how we hold some level of complicity in a *system* of abuse, and we do something about it to make things right where possible.

    So, those leaders, staff, etc., taken in by someone who turns out to be abusive — take hope. We are still in a position to do what we can to reconcile any relationships with people who got harmed because of our blind spots and being blind-sided. And we can help prevent abuse in the future.

    P.S. Barb Orlowski’s book is *Spiritual Abuse Recovery: Dynamic Research on Finding a Place of Wholeness.*

    http://www.churchexiters.com/

  146. Lea wrote:

    To Robin, at least you are smart and brave enough to see the truth now.

    As has been said before; “it is easier to mislead a person than it is to convince him that him that he has been mislead.”

  147. Lea wrote:

    I bet they don’t see him as a predator. They see him as a lovely man of gawd who just got pulled into sexual sin by all the jezebels hanging around churches (put there by satan) just waiting to lead them away. They also seem to have bought the Adam defense (‘my wife did it first’).

    I know you are right on this. That attitude became such a problem in Texas that victims of this form of sexual and spiritual abuse came forward and told their stories and the TX State Legislature made a new law making it a Class 2 felony for any member of the clergy to have sex with someone they minister to. This literally puts this crime on the same level as jumping a stranger in a parking lot and brutally raping them.

    Clerical having affairs is a complicated issues but when fully understood the power delta is so great that congregants under the control and influence of a pastor don’t have a level playing field for making an independent decision for mutual consent. There is too much manipulation at play. The lawmakers likened this to having your psychologist use their inside knowledge of your beliefs, your secrets and weaknesses to seduce you. Even when the congregant openly pursues the pastor, these charges could still be pursued (although not as likely) because lawmakers want the pastors to keep their grubby mitts out of their own church’s cookie jar. Going after your neighbor pastor’s congregants is fine. You will notice how the big megas with a lot to lose financially if criminal sexual assault charges are filed, go to great lengths to hide the identity of the victim. You didn’t see that as often before this law was put into place.

  148. mirele wrote:

    @ Loren Haas:
    I think you meant this link:
    http://religionnews.com/2016/09/29/billy-grahams-grandson-talks-about-near-suicide-and-whether-hes-planning-a-comeback/

    A great quote from TT there: “I’ve lived my entire adult life with a plan. Time and time again over the last two years God has wrecked my plans.”

    So how did God wreck his plans? Did God aim Tullian’s eyes at beautiful women and cause Tullian’s hands to remove their clothes?

    If so, BAD GOD! No cookie!

  149. LT wrote:

    As for the helicopter swarming his home trying to “flush them out for a story”, one traffic helicopter went overhead in broad daylight once to get a single picture of Mark’s 7 figure mansion to run for a story on his excessive wealth.

    The hypersensitivity to helicopters strikes me as particularly nutso. Our local police chopper buzzes the area every couple of days, and we also get traffic, rescue, military, and other helicopters whizzing by. Then there are the numerous fixed-wing aircraft. Frankly, I worry more about kids with Silly String than about helicopters.

  150. These guys just can’t help themselves….the accolades, the weekly pastoral love-fest, the book royalties, the free vacations to punch the clock repurposing a well worn sermon full of other peoples quotes at another part of the country/world.

    It’s hard to let this lifestyle of luxury go, once you’ve tasted how easy it is.

  151. Gram3 wrote:

    LT wrote:
    I blame Willow Creek for supporting that. Tullian could have worked for them online and via Skype meetings, if they wanted to support a brother.
    Yes. but here’s what I don’t get. Why does an adulterous pastor get provided with a job and support? Does Willow Creek do that for adulterous pewpeons? I understand wanting to support his wife and kids, but him? I must be missing something.

    Well, ex pastors explained it to us in their mission statement. You see, they are “called”. And nothing should keep them from fulfilling that “calling”. The pew peons are not “called” to titled ministry positions that require platforms to speak from so they don’t qualify for the special paid help after committing adultery. (Snark alert)

  152. Friend wrote:

    A great quote from TT there: “I’ve lived my entire adult life with a plan. Time and time again over the last two years God has wrecked my plans.”

    Uh huh, and ole TT there seems to have wrecked some of God’s plans also. It is amazing that he cannot do the math on that.

  153. dee wrote:

    Note how he dropped grandaddy’s name in the post. He is a user.

    Using the family name opened doors for TT initially, without any particular skill of his own. After dragging the family name through a mess, I’m surprised to see him lean on that crutch again. But, what else does he have? A tarnished past and unreliable resume. I suppose if he used granddaddy’s name in another Christian market segment, rather than New Calvinism, he might get some new opportunities. It worked for Driscoll in his unrepentant comeback through Pentecostal churches.

  154. dee wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    Should we expect him to pop up with a shiny new ordination from somewhere, tanned, rested and ready to start a new church?

    Notice he is in Texas, the home of Robert Morris who was instrumental in the Driscoll comeback.

    DEE, who is this Robert Morris?

  155. Friend wrote:

    The hypersensitivity to helicopters strikes me as particularly nutso.

    Black Helicopters and tinfoil hats?

  156. Lea wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    He is the pastor at gateway, a ginormous church in the Dfw (south lake) area.
    You watch sermons on tv. It’s weird.

    Big Brother on the Telescreen…

  157. Lydia wrote:

    But it never ceases to amaze me the evils pastors and other religious leaders can get by with….. except adultery.

    Well, sex makes people stupid.

  158. LT wrote:

    The Woodlands is a very posh area. But just as important, it is also home to some very prominent movers and shakers. Ted Cruz holds some big fundraisers in that area. I believe Enron executives lived there as well. Tullian will build some significant connections there.

    Ah, the delicious aroma and taste of POWER.

  159. dee wrote:

    My daughter mentioned this in a class in her Christian high school. The teacher was upset and said she was besmirching Billy Graham’s good name. I called the teacher and told him to get his facts straight. Billy was a good evangelist but a lousy father and he even said so.

    The Great Man who screws up when it comes to family & personal relationships — a combination going clear back to King David.

  160. Gram3 wrote:

    LT wrote:

    I blame Willow Creek for supporting that. Tullian could have worked for them online and via Skype meetings, if they wanted to support a brother.

    Yes. but here’s what I don’t get. Why does an adulterous pastor get provided with a job and support? Does Willow Creek do that for adulterous pewpeons? I understand wanting to support his wife and kids, but him? I must be missing something.

    You are only missing the good old boys/pastors’ network! Of which you as a subordinate female would never be privy to.

  161. Lydia wrote:

    There is a section in there on the famous airport meeting he attended with Charles Stanley (“those who go against me get cancer or lose their jobs”),

    Putting a hex on those who went against him?

    That isn’t Pow-Wow/Braucherai, that’s Hexerai.

  162. Gram3 wrote:

    Enablers have bought The Lie Narrative of an expert liar who has made it through life on lies that usually work to get him/her what they want. The Lie Narrative is designed to make the enablers feel righteous for aiding the Poor Victim.

    And in my experience growing up, The Lie Narrative WINS.

  163. roebuck wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    You are confusing me with someone else.

    If you use a handle like ‘Anonymous’ you really ought to expect being confused with someone else now and then. Just sayin’…

    True enough!

    But all the cool names are taken!!

  164. Christiane wrote:

    who is this Robert Morris?

    Pastor of a mega-mega-mega charismatic church in Texas. Highly critical of Christians like us who read and comment on blogs. On the governing board of Driscoll’s new church in Phoenix; most likely financially supporting the unrepentant comeback of the potty-mouth preacher. Claims to be on “Satan’s Hit List” because his name is dropped on watchblogs (like TWW). He is extremely concerned that you are spending so much time on the internet and he is fired up about it, as he says on the following short video piece:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2&v=9NyXAtOO8GA

  165. Lydia wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    I have never expressed any support for Driscoll and Mahaney. You are confusing me with someone else.

    Parsing. You were a big defender for Mohler when people were trying hard to get the word out about SGMsurvivors and Acts 29.

    Every adulterer is a coward. IMO. Period.

    But it never ceases to amaze me the evils pastors and other religious leaders can get by with….. except adultery.

    Even pedophiles and their protectors are given a bigger pass in those circles. It is truly baffling.

    I have never supported Acts 29 or SGM and have criticized both strongly. No parsing about it. And you will not find any example of such. You truly are confused.

    I do like the fact that Southern is once again following the Abstract of Principles and the BFM, and I give Mohler the credit for that. If you had told anyone in 1975 that the faculty at Southern Seminary in 2016 would have a high view of the Bible, that would not have been believable.

    I agree with you about the pass other sins get.

    I am just not willing to give Joel Gregory, TT, or any other pastor who does this a pass when they try to promote themselves in ministry.

    The reason these guys often have a platform is because of their failures. There is something very wrong with that.

  166. A great man who screws up his family in the process is not a great man. A man’s first ministry is to his wife and children. If his family is troubled, then he needs to rethink his ministry or career and regroup so he can do a better job at home. IMHO.Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:
    My daughter mentioned this in a class in her Christian high school. The teacher was upset and said she was besmirching Billy Graham’s good name. I called the teacher and told him to get his facts straight. Billy was a good evangelist but a lousy father and he even said so.
    The Great Man who screws up when it comes to family & personal relationships — a combination going clear back to King David.

  167. Christiane wrote:

    DEE, who is this Robert Morris?

    He’s a very talented shaman and one of the most successful hucksters there is in the world of televangelism.

  168. Anonymous wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    I have never expressed any support for Driscoll and Mahaney. You are confusing me with someone else.

    Parsing. You were a big defender for Mohler when people were trying hard to get the word out about SGMsurvivors and Acts 29.

    Every adulterer is a coward. IMO. Period.

    But it never ceases to amaze me the evils pastors and other religious leaders can get by with….. except adultery.

    Even pedophiles and their protectors are given a bigger pass in those circles. It is truly baffling.

    I have never supported Acts 29 or SGM and have criticized both strongly. No parsing about it. And you will not find any example of such. You truly are confused.

    I do like the fact that Southern is once again following the Abstract of Principles and the BFM, and I give Mohler the credit for that. If you had told anyone in 1975 that the faculty at Southern Seminary in 2016 would have a high view of the Bible, that would not have been believable.

    I agree with you about the pass other sins get.

    I am just not willing to give Joel Gregory, TT, or any other pastor who does this a pass when they try to promote themselves in ministry.

    The reason these guys often have a platform is because of their failures. There is something very wrong with that.

    I have been told I cannot give examples that may identify you. You have that right. You were outed long ago on the watchdog site as playing both sides in deceptive ways and we have been on the same blogs since the outpost days. I will take a loud mouth mean jerk over a deceptive brain gamer with a hidden agenda….any day.

    I get it that adultery is your “go to the mattresses” issue over every other abuse issue. You are a CBMW comp.

    And it seems the “Abstract” has not helped SBTS become a more decent and honest place….since it was so important to bring it out of mothballs from its pro slaver era from whence it came.

    It just gets old.

  169. Hi there! Long time lurker, first time poster. I was very curious to know more about TT’s new wife, or rather, “the other woman” so I did some googling. And oh wow! look what the Google came back with: Stacie Phillips was featured in Houston’s culture map.com March 14, 2013 article entitled “Houston’s most eligible bachelors and bachelorettes: 10 hot singles to heat up your March.” Listed as one of her deal breakers: “flirting with the opposite sex” Alrighty then! Guess some things changed in the past 2 years…
    http://houston.culturemap.com/news/city-life/03-14-13-houstons-most-eligible-bachelors-and-bachelorettes-10-hot-singles-to-heat-up-your-march/#slide=6

  170. dee wrote:

    Grace is freeing. But grace should always remind us of why we need grace.TT seems to have forgotten that in his activities.


    Ro 6:1-2
    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

    God is faithful and just to forgive us our sin when we confess (agree with him that it is sin) and repent, but there is also the issue of bringing forth fruit in keeping with repentance. As James wrote, faith without works is no faith at all. Repentance is of the heart, not the lips. If the heart has not changed, has not sought to make things right with those who have been hurt, has not removed self from the throne, then I don’t think that can be called repentance.

  171. Lea wrote:

    Several comments on his ‘expastors’ article said there would be no problem with him being back in ministry! because we have all sinned, and all that matters, apparently, is that you are not actively sinning at this exact second. Because grace.

    1 Tim 3:1-10
    It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.

    Well, we have a few problems there…

  172. Anonymous wrote:

    I do like the fact that Southern is once again following the Abstract of Principles and the BFM,

    So you are a servant-leader man who insists on the “gracious submission” of the SBC helpmeet wives, and the “priest of believers” instead of “priesthood of the believer”.

  173. LT wrote:

    Folks, this is a PR piece for Tullian’s new book (working title) Finding Grace in a Hopeless Place. The Christian audience is getting played. Religious News Service is doing Tullian’s bidding just like The Christian Post does Mark Driscoll’s bidding every time they run columns with MD giving advice. PR guys and lawyers behind the scenes are maneuvering all of this. This is so manipulative. Shame on anyone who buys this book and underwrites Tullian’s disgraceful treatment of his flock and family. They are helping to bring down Christendom.

    I didn’t think anything else could sink lower than what I’ve already seen in the “church” but this… this… is utterly disgusting. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry, honestly. This has nothing to do with Jesus Christ and everything to do with easy money.

  174. Max wrote:

    Robert Morris is critical of Christians like us who read and comment on blogs.

    While Morris was ministering to potty-mouth Driscoll, the watchblogs were ministering to a host of folks abused by Driscoll and his off-track ministry.

  175. Anonymous wrote:

    If you had told anyone in 1975 that the faculty at Southern Seminary in 2016 would have a high view of the Bible, that would not have been believable.

    That statement is true from the perspective of someone in 1975. However, it is not apparent to me, a conservative if ever there was one, that SBTS has a high view of the Bible. They have a high view of their view of the Bible, but they take great liberties with what the text actually says. Who has a high view of the Bible? Someone who confesses inerrancy and infallibility and then proceeds to propagate rank eisegesis as the Word of God? Or someone who tries to deal faithfully and *consistently* with the text according to well-established conservative interpretive principles? I say the latter is the one who truly has a high view of the Bible. The former merely uses that as a marketing hook. I do know something about the current climate at SBTS and also the climate in 1975. And also something about marketing hooks and propaganda.

  176. Lydia wrote:

    You are a CBMW comp.

    Seriously? If that is true, then Anonymous has no ground to criticize others for not having a high view of scripture. CBMW makes up Bibley stuff to sell other stuff, including pious displays of fidelity to God’s Good and Beautiful Design which are utterly bereft of any textual basis other than the fanciful wishes of Female Subordinationists.

    I wonder if Anonymous can point me to the elusive verse(s) where God confers males with authority over females. I wonder if Anonymous has a high view of 1 Timothy 3:15 or if he explains away its plain meaning.

  177. brian wrote:

    I do remember sitting in the circle in a metaphoric sense and “repenting”. It was actually a communion meeting and I was apologizing for being a Jr Hitler / Jeffrey Dahmer wannabe after hearing what utter worthless wretches we all were in our “flesh”. My problem is I lacked the moral character to want to actually do what those two people did, the thought of hurting any person in any kind of way was so repugnant to me. But we had drummed into our heads that we were all dead in sin, wretched evil filthy God hating satan worshipers. This happens when “sin” like being attracted to a single adult lady your age and just wanting to say hello or have a conversation with or even maybe ask out to coffee. Of course, we all know that opens the door for all sorts of evil and the next think you know Sin crouches at the door waiting for you to fall. Or even worse you question the “logic” of excommunicating people who are mentally ill for moral failing when the leadership told them to stop taking their meds because Jesus healed them of all that bad thinking.
    So when they start struggling with their “behaviors” it becomes a “moral” failing. And you (me) are a moral failure too because we questioned the wisdom of the lead borg. I hate to use such extremist language but it is a profound thing to have a person in leadership tell you, personally, that there is no difference between you, a 22-23-year-old rather nieve person and a full blown version of Hitler, Dahmer, etc. Then there is the thought crime sins or maybe a “bad” word slips out or even worse you “gossip” against the collective when you question the functionality of Jack Chick tracts.
    This video sort of sums up how “sin” was explained to us
    https://youtu.be/viV1LsQPMeg

    Brian, I just wanted to say that I understand exactly what you are describing here. You suffered spiritual abuse in a Christian cult claiming to represent God. Your experience closely reflects my own. Public confessions were part and parcel of the group’s control mechanism. After my husband and I left, we heard of members being coerced into publicly confessing: “I volunteer for the lake of fire.” Hard to wrap your mind around, huh? The idea was that the members were in such a deplorable spiritual state that the only option for them was hell. Therefore, their public confession sealed their fate. Those who resisted parroting the line were publicly ridiculed and harassed. Some caved in and parroted the words just to silence their detractors. All this to say that while the experiences you describe almost sound like something out of a freakish cult novel, that couldn’t happen in *real life,* are believable to me. Thus it is good to share such experiences so that those of us who are *survivors* of spiritual abuse can give encouragement to one another to press on.

  178. Darlene wrote:

    Public confessions were part and parcel of the group’s control mechanism. After my husband and I left, we heard of members being coerced into publicly confessing: “I volunteer for the lake of fire.” Hard to wrap your mind around, huh? The idea was that the members were in such a deplorable spiritual state that the only option for them was hell. Therefore, their public confession sealed their fate. Those who resisted parroting the line were publicly ridiculed and harassed. Some caved in and parroted the words just to silence their detractors.

    My goodness, what a travesty of the well-spring of God’s mercy and forgiveness.

    What have these men DONE to people to bring them to such a place in their minds where they would ‘parrot’ such words????

    The evil one set out to thwart the good that God intended for mankind. I see his handiwork in the shaming of these victims and in the brutality of the people conducting these horrendous mockeries of the gentle mercy of ‘confession’.

    Whatever this ‘church’ is, it appears to be moving towards a full satanic cult.

  179. Nancy2 wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Good point. And what about Eli and his sons who profained the temple! The sons were killed in a battle with the Philistines, who also took the Ark of the Covenant. When he heard that news, Eli fell off his chair and broke his neck. God takes ministry seriously! Ministry shenanigans in the American church can be likened to giving the Ark of the Covenant to the Philistines! I’m surprised that more unfaithful pastors are not exposed and dealt with by the hand of God! We need a holy fear to grip the pulpit again!
    And then there was Judas Iscariot …….

    And Absalom. And Nebuchadnezzar.

  180. @ Gram3:
    Gram3, I resemble that remark! You and I are kindred spirits when it comes to SBTS’ “high view of the Bible” vs. “high view of their view of the Bible.” Eisegesis rules the day in New Calvinism. New Calvinist followers don’t have the discernment to see through the schemes of their leaders. The YRR certainly have a passion, but it is a misplaced passion. Sad to see a generation fall for this.

  181. Max wrote:

    The YRR certainly have a passion, but it is a misplaced passion. Sad to see a generation fall for this.

    is there hope for recovery? after the failure of ESS to take hold and after the pitiful behavior to do with the ‘carved in stone’ ESL debacle ????

    Seems they have now at least some food for thought about how they ended up looking so foolish and maybe that will be a wake-up moment for some among them … maybe …. I hope

  182. Christiane wrote:

    is there hope for recovery?

    Not unless one of the Usual Suspects violates the Edwin Edwards Rule of dead girl or live boy. I exaggerate slightly.

    Seriously (because this is serious) I think that Gen X and Y are lost if they are already in this. I think many will escape through the deadbolts on the Back Door of the LocalChurch when their marriages fall apart or their daughters are in marriages with abusers or their sons are in marriages to abusers. It will take something very drastic to break the spell that has been cast, and that spell is the Guarantee of a Godly and good marriage and Successful kids.

  183. I think what TT did is horrible and should not be laying the groundwork for a public ministry if he indeed is. This post is the first I have heard about him since the ordeal occurred. But, to lay into Billy Graham, even bringing up incidents of 70 years ago with Truman is just unnecessary in my mind. The man admitted he made a great mistake and was just a young kid wet behind the ears. I thank God for calling me to preach and He knew I would say some dumb, ridiculous things in the pulpit. I thank Him for forgiving me and growing me up. Preachers are fallible men who fail. Some failures do disqualify them from any public platform again.Graham has been one of the most humble men who has preached God’s Word. I have spent time with Joel Gregory and was trained by him to some degree. His affair broke him before God and I believe he even sold insurance or cemetery plots at one time. Being broken, God has used him greatly in the black church. I realize this blog is designed to expose false Christianity, which I understand, But, It seems many commenters are angry and lack a forgiving attitude even love to remember sins that God has long covered. He who forgives much has been forgiven much.

  184. Lydia wrote:

    Well, ex pastors explained it to us in their mission statement. You see, they are “called”. And nothing should keep them from fulfilling that “calling”. The pew peons are not “called” to titled ministry positions that require platforms to speak from so they don’t qualify for the special paid help after committing adultery. (Snark alert)

    And that is the fruit of the misapplication of Romans 11:29 – “For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable.” – a very popular scripture in evangelical/Pentecostal circles.

  185. Nancy2 wrote:

    A religion? Maybe. Christianity? Definitely not!

    And yet they will swear up and down that their version is the real McCoy as far as ‘Biblical Christianity’ goes. I heard the same spiel when I was a Calvary Chapel bobble-head, and they’re not even Calvinists.
    Regardless of the camp, fear is their greatest ally, fear that if you (generic you) don’t knuckle under and hoe the row the way yer’ sposeta’, your final destination will be the lake of fire.

  186. Gram3 wrote:

    Not unless one of the Usual Suspects violates the Edwin Edwards Rule of dead girl or live boy. I exaggerate slightly.

    LOL
    I found what you meant by the Edwin Edwards’ Rule in wiki: “Before election day, Edwards joked with reporters: “The only way I can lose this election is if I’m caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy”.”

    And then I did read the serious part and my goodness, if these folks are so lacking in empathy for those they persecute, maybe it will take seeing their own harmed by their vicious abusive ‘theology’. In any case, their treatment of people is in violation of the Royal Law of Christ and therefore cannot be called ‘Christian’, though they quote all the ‘clobber verses’ they know to ‘excuse’ their viciousness.

  187. Muff Potter wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    A religion? Maybe. Christianity? Definitely not!

    And yet they will swear up and down that their version is the real McCoy as far as ‘Biblical Christianity’ goes. I heard the same spiel when I was a Calvary Chapel bobble-head, and they’re not even Calvinists.
    Regardless of the camp, fear is their greatest ally, fear that if you (generic you) don’t knuckle under and hoe the row the way yer’ sposeta’, your final destination will be the lake of fire.

    You know, that group of political leaders and powerful business men who formed ‘The Family’ of Prayer Breakfast fame … they had a leader Doug Coe who told some of his young followers that they didn’t want to limit themselves by just saying they were ‘Christians’, because what they were trying to do in the world was much greater than that.

    I’ve seen enough abuse of the word ‘biblical’ in some quarters to now view it as a ‘red light’. Same with ‘gospel’ and ‘sovereignty’ and other ‘code words’ of a movement that harms people. But the word ‘Christian’ I refuse to give over to these men as their ‘code word’ for their shenanigans against victims.

  188. Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

    One of my signs says, “Scottsdale is not ‘Business as Usual,’” and that’s true, despite what Mark Driscoll thinks. I want the record to show I have objected to his presence from the moment he first set up shop in Scottsdale. He has unfinished business in Seattle.

    Mirele, your next demonstration sign should read: Mark, you have unfinished business in Seattle.

  189. @ John:
    I am a long fan of Billy Graham. I grew up in a nonreligious home, However, my parents would always listen to Billy Graham on TV. That was my first exposure to the Bible.

    I read Joel Gregory’s book about his time as Criswell’s short lived successor. I found him a tad enamored of the celebrity scene.I do hope he has changed in the ensuing years.

    As for forgiving, that is not the role for most of my readers. They have not been personally sinned against by any of these celeb pastors that we write about. This blog is to expose abuse and to collect thoughts on the matter. People who visit this blog come from all types of religious and nonreligious backgrounds.

    I like to hear what people are thinking. I think it is important for evangelical Christianity to hear what people really think. We could sit back and not take comments. Then we could pretend that everyone thought just the way we would wish them to think.

    Listen carefully to what you read here. This is real, no holds barred opining from a diverse group of people. You will learn what is real and not hidden behind some Christian platitudes. I am grateful for the honesty of our readers.

  190. John wrote:

    But, It seems many commenters are angry and lack a forgiving attitude even love to remember sins that God has long covered. He who forgives much has been forgiven much.

    Just telling the truth, no anger. I really do not see what his big draw was. I went to hear him and was baffled at what people were seeing in him. I didn’t see it. I don’t know. I think he used misleading methods, counting people who were already believers, for sure, and what was the point of that?

  191. Dee did you read this line from the RNS article from TT?

    “That being said, I’ve also had to admit that my sin hurt a lot of people. I lied to people, betrayed people, deceived people. My actions were devastatingly hurtful, and hurt people say and do hurtful things. Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for those who spent all their time highlighting the sins of others while never confessing their own. I spent too much time identifying the sins of others than I did my own sin, and it lead to slavery. My critics are no better than me and I am no better than them.”

    -Taken from http://religionnews.com/2016/09/29/billy-grahams-grandson-talks-about-near-suicide-and-whether-hes-planning-a-comeback/)

    Isn’t that a nice old rug sweep?! I am almost surprised that TT didn’t trot out the old “we’re all sinners” line to deflect responsibility for what he did, which included abusing his pastoral role in sleeping with a married parishioner and trying to peg his marriage breakup all on his (now) ex-wife! Ish.

    What is sad is that he could have responded with humility and contriteness. Instead of essentially equating people holding him accountable with what he did in breaking trust and betraying many, he could have talked about how he deserved people’s distrust of him for what he did. Many of their words about him sounds bad because what he did WAS very, very bad! He could have talked about how he sees living his life now is about rebuilding the trust that he destroyed by faithful living. Instead, he opted for the my critics-are-just-as-bad as me line.

    And he wonders why people question his level of repentance…

  192. Pingback: Saturday Ramblings: October 1, 2016 | internetmonk.com

  193. Respectfully siteseer, I am glad you did not see anything in him. That is the way he would want it. I am biased of course as I was saved 45 years ago under his preaching and surrendered to the Gospel call while reading his official biography. I think what many see is how much God's Holy Spirit has used him as an evangelist. Graham said that if God took his hand off of him, his lips would turn to clay.@ siteseer:

  194. dee wrote:

    I like to hear what people are thinking. I think it is important for evangelical Christianity to hear what people really think. We could sit back and not take comments. Then we could pretend that everyone thought just the way we would wish them to think.

    Listen carefully to what you read here. This is real, no holds barred opining from a diverse group of people. You will learn what is real and not hidden behind some Christian platitudes. I am grateful for the honesty of our readers.

    I am so grateful to have this place of truth! To be able to articulate the things I see and think is something I have never experienced in church. I’ve always felt like I was in a mental strait jacket. I can’t tell you how much it means to have a place where people can say what they think and not be shamed, accused, or penalized. I’ve learned more from other peoples’ comments here than in most sermons.

    I once went through all of the Bible references to truth and I asked myself, with all of this emphasis on truth, why is truth not valued in the church? The church was PC way before the world caught on to that concept- only certain things are acceptable to say. When so much of your experience and perspective must be self-censored, it really is gaslighting on a large scale.

    I find that most Christians I know are so unaccustomed to people freely saying what they think, that it feels extreme to them, they are apt to read malice into it when there is none intended. My own opinion is, I think it would do most Christians good to stretch themselves in this regard.

    And yet, on the other hand, if a person is expressing thoughts that are considered “PC” in the church, they can use derogatory terms, put-downs, name calling, and other disagreeable methods and people don’t notice it. It’s weird.

  195. The ministry culture is indeed pretty toxic, even for women, as thanks to social media it is

  196. brian wrote:

    Speaking of Billy Graham I always found the Nixon-Graham exchange quite interesting.

    https://youtu.be/9jNr0_AUSR0

    One tidbit from Mr Graham there are two different kinds of Jews one is called the synagog of Satan. I have personally heard people actually talk like this in person and really believe it, looking back it is quite scary.

    Wow, interesting!

  197. John wrote:

    I realize this blog is designed to expose false Christianity, which I understand, But, It seems many commenters are angry and lack a forgiving attitude even love to remember sins that God has long covered. He who forgives much has been forgiven much.

    I found the beginning part of your comment something I agree with.

    The damage has been done by authoritarians of all stripes, of late NeoCalvinists, to the name of Christ, the cause of Christ, the Gospel, our witness, our lives, marriages, families, and churches….and what you see here is righteous anger.

    The offenders have NOT put on sackcloth and ashes and repented for their enormous damage. They are puffed up, arrogant, and unrepentant. The comments you see here, I think, represent righteous anger…the same kind of anger that God has about these men.

  198. @ Jack:

    i think Anne Graham Lotz is very impressive — an awesome speaker, she seems very humble, sincere.

    I saw a photo on the internet somewhere of Gigi with her dad, Billy, and elsewhere a photo of TT with his grandpa, Billy. In both cases, the elder Graham looked terrible, disheveled, shirt partially untucked, face discolored, hair untidy, hooked up to tubes. In each photo the younger Grahams were each smiling so brightly — too brightly — it’s all my impression, but it seemed that the photos were all about them. their expressions seemed to be saying “Look at me! I am a celebrity, and don’t I look great!”

    The photo, showing Mr. Graham unkempt with no effort made to adjust his appearance for his own dignity, should never have been taken, let alone released publicly. It’s as though the purpose of him being in the picture was really to draw attention to the younger Grahams. Using him for publicity.

    it really bothered me. and I wondered, what’s wrong with them?!? why so self-absorbed? so needy for attention?

  199. @ John:

    “It seems many commenters are angry and lack a forgiving attitude even love to remember sins that God has long covered.”
    ++++++++++++

    no, we’re just bugged by gospel narcissists who deceive, manipulate, and hurt people yet are given special treatment by the establishment and rewarded instead of being held accountable. i’m not ok with this — don’t see why I should pretend otherwise. The last thing the world needs is more pretense from christian people.

  200. dee wrote:

    I did not know that about Tchenanigans. I have corresponded with him. If TT was behind it, then he is sinking even lower than i could have imagined.

    TT is not behind the parody account. The parody acct persin seems to post mostly accurate information. I have only found one discrepancy in one tweet.

  201. @ Done (Just Watching):

    “It would also be appropriate for publishers to refrain from publishing or promoting anything he writes.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    does a christian publisher exist whose moral conscience doesn’t bow to the almighty dollar?

    i’ll be i could find some secular ones. I know i can.

  202. Divorce Minister wrote:

    My critics are no better than me and I am no better than them.

    It was despicable and undiscerning of Religion News Service to use that “sin-leveling” quote for their tweet promoting their article by Jonathan Merritt. I would gravely doubt whether survivors of abuse would ever get an accurate story of their experiences on RNS. Anyway, my response on Twitter to their tweet with that quote was this:

    @RNS @TullianT “My critics are no better than me and I am no better than them.” Equal in being forgiven, true. Equal in due diligence, false.

    https://twitter.com/futuristguy/status/781928981016612864

  203. dee wrote:

    As for forgiving, that is not the role for most of my readers. They have not been personally sinned against by any of these celeb pastors that we write about.

    Indeed and thank you for saying this. It is not our role to forgive those who have not hurt us and it’s not thanks to any of these men for ‘forgiving’ attitudes towards people who have done nothing to them either.

    Forget about forgiveness. How about fixing the problem that needs forgiving so these churches stop hurting people?

  204. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Black Helicopters and tinfoil hats?

    It’s a good thought. Seriously, though, if I thought a helicopter of any color were trying to flush me out of my house “for a story,” I would stay indoors and pretend not to be home.

  205. John wrote:

    But, It seems many commenters are angry and lack a forgiving attitude even love to remember sins that God has long covered. He who forgives much has been forgiven much.

    Well, let’s look at that. As others have said it is not anyone’s place to forgive when they have not been the one sinned against. Nor can anyone forgive on someone else’s behalf. That is an unbiblical idea that has somehow become popular is some religious areas and also in the secular area.

    Paul in talking about ‘covered’ says that it is God who does not take sins into consideration once forgiveness has been extended. David for example had his relationship with God restored but the consequences never went away. The first child of Bathsheba by David was not resurrected, the household did not just all settle down, and the people knew just like Nathan knew what David had done and there is no indication that some huge loss of memory descended on either the prophet or the nation. The legacy of David was forever marred; only the reputation of God survived that debacle unscathed. And God forgave David; he just did not hit some retro button and make it all never having happened.

    So somebody falls into sin, repents (and repentance includes a firm determination to quit sinning), God does whatever God does with the penitent since only God knows the heart, and life goes on. The person declares that he has been forgiven. Perhaps so, but then there is also ‘not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord…’ so the rest of us do not know what transpired between someone and God and it is none of our business to say one way or the other.

    Time passes. The person sins again (and ‘repents’) and then again (and repents) and indulges in stuff like for example apparent lying which he never admits and of which there is no claimed repentance, and repeated ‘issues’ are seen–like willingness as senior pastor to ride roughshod over people in order to change a church to his own thinking (think Coral Ridge) and then a marriage falls apart and then children get distanced if not functionally partially abandoned.

    At some point a decision has to be made. Options have to be considered. (1) Perhaps there is no power in God or willingness in God to change a repentant person. Perhaps the only thing that happens is a court transaction with the ‘imputation’ of Christ’s righteousness and nothing more and said imputation does not actually change the penitent since it all is just some court transaction. Perhaps the Calvinists are right about that. OR (2) Perhaps this person has not been truly repentant. Perhaps all he wanted was to ‘get away with it’ with God and man and perhaps this person then is running a con on himself and others and perhaps even hoping that God buys it. OR (3) Perhaps the person has some diagnosable condition which is better handled by the mental health professionals than the religious professionals. We have certainly seen that from time to time. OR (4) Perhaps we have at least partially misunderstood Paul and need to revisit our theology, and have we not seen that from time to time with even whole careers built on rethinking Paul. Each one of these is a potentially correct option, depending on one’s assumptions.

    But no, you don’t continue to make excuses for repeat offenders and ignore the possibilities and consequences.

    Disclaimer: I do not speak for TWW or anyone here but only for myself.

  206. One of the little people wrote:

    misapplication of Romans 11:29 – “For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable.”

    Agreed. Just because one has enough charisma to draw a following and an educated sense of Scripture, doesn’t mean he is either “gifted” or “called” by God. Seminaries are churning out preacher-boys by the hundreds each year. Education doesn’t produce one ounce of revelation. To turn a preacher-boy into a man of God requires the anointing of God to dispense His gift and calling into his life. Much of the American church is populated with annoying, not anointed, leaders. That’s why it’s darn near impossible to find a genuine work of God in a community.

    I heard a career SBC foreign missionary speak in a church we attended several years ago. He was home on furlough after his wife had been killed by thieves on the mission field. He was invited to speak at the church by a pastor who had been his seminary friend. The pastor introduced him as “Proof that just any old bush will do!” The missionary took the pulpit and firmly responded “Just any old ‘surrendered’ bush will do.” God had used the years following his seminary acquaintance with the pastor to turn a preacher-boy into a man of God. It’s the anointing that comes with a gifting that makes the difference. If a man is not surrendered, he is not called. Surrendered pastors do not abuse followers; he loves them, he doesn’t use them.

  207. Christiane wrote:

    You know, that group of political leaders and powerful business men who formed ‘The Family’ of Prayer Breakfast fame … they had a leader Doug Coe who told some of his young followers that they didn’t want to limit themselves by just saying they were ‘Christians’, because what they were trying to do in the world was much greater than that.

    “Today Prayer Breakfasts, TOMORROW THE WORLD!”?
    (Illuminati…)

  208. Muff Potter wrote:

    And yet they will swear up and down that their version is the real McCoy as far as ‘Biblical Christianity’ goes. I heard the same spiel when I was a Calvary Chapel bobble-head, and they’re not even Calvinists.

    And North Korea and all the other Third World USSR fanboys and clones swear up and down that their version is REAL Democracy.

  209. Christiane wrote:

    What have these men DONE to people to bring them to such a place in their minds where they would ‘parrot’ such words????

    Room 101.

    Only when you are completely utterly broken to the System will you be allowed to advance within the System.

  210. John wrote:

    It seems many commenters are angry

    Yes, “angry” is probably a good word to use when commenters express their emotions about the condition of the American church, particularly the authoritarian abuse of Christians. Most of us grew up believing anger is wrong, a bad emotion to exhibit. But, yet, we see numerous occasions in Scripture when God’s people had reached the end of their rope when they viewed the sin around them and expressed anger about it. Evils such as pulpits controlling, intimidating and manipulating the pew to use them for their purposes get our hackles up! “Pastors” who betray the trust of church members in various ways, twist Scripture to fit a theological grid, emotionally (and even sexually) abuse members, and shun or excommunicate those who raise flags about their ministry are things that should make any Christian angry! It’s totally appropriate for Christians to get upset over sin, especially when church leaders are living sinful lives.

    Paul advised believers “When you are angry, do not sin, and be sure to stop being angry before the end of the day” (Ephesians 4:26). Being angry is not sin, but using the anger to commit sin is. Commenting on blogs is not sin; it is an expression of our anger about what we see going on abusive ministries. The tough part about Paul’s advice for many who comment on TWW is to stop being angry at the end of the day … this darn stuff that is going on in the name of Christ greatly disturbs our soul.

  211. Divorce Minister wrote, quoting from Tullian Tchvidjian:

    Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for those who spent all their time highlighting the sins of others while never confessing their own. I spent too much time identifying the sins of others than I did my own sin, and it lead to slavery. My critics are no better than me and I am no better than them.

    The last sentence in that quote rather contradicts what goes before it. If I think my critics are no better than me, then I’m identifying their sin rather than mine. Why do I think they’re criticising me? What do I suppose they’re trying to achieve?

  212. Max wrote:

    Yes, “angry” is probably a good word to use when commenters express their emotions about the condition of the American church, particularly the authoritarian abuse of Christians.

    Exactly.
    It appears that TT has used his grandfather’s fame as well as the name of God to catapult himself into a position where he can get lots of money from pew peons and use others (women, to be more specific) for his own personal pleasure. And, TT didn’t just make a “mistake”. He is a repeat offender.

  213. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote, quoting from Tullian Tchvidjian:

    Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for those who spent all their time highlighting the sins of others while never confessing their own. I spent too much time identifying the sins of others than I did my own sin, and it lead to slavery. My critics are no better than me and I am no better than them.

    The last sentence in that quote rather contradicts what goes before it.

    That’s a terrible quote that I missed before. Tullian doesn’t come off as a man who is sorry. Everything he says is wrong really because it makes it clear that His attitude is wrong.

  214. Max wrote:

    Much of the American church is populated with annoying, not anointed, leaders.

    Great word play!
    And yeah, it’s true, many of em’ are just plain annoying…

  215. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote, quoting from Tullian Tchvidjian:

    Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for those who spent all their time highlighting the sins of others while never confessing their own. I spent too much time identifying the sins of others than I did my own sin, and it lead to slavery. My critics are no better than me and I am no better than them.

    The last sentence in that quote rather contradicts what goes before

    Doublethink, Comrade, Doublethink.

  216. Nancy2 wrote:

    It appears that TT has used his grandfather’s fame as well as the name of God to catapult himself into a position where he can get lots of money from pew peons and use others (women, to be more specific) for his own personal pleasure

    Except for Boz T, you could say that about every Graham after Billy.

    Just TT gets his rocks off over women while Franklin gets his rocks off over political Power.

  217. John wrote:

    I realize this blog is designed to expose false Christianity, which I understand, But, It seems many commenters are angry and lack a forgiving attitude even love to remember sins that God has long covered.

    I was listening till this. Two things, inserting “But” negates the prior statement revealing “realizing this blog is designed to expose false Christianity” was a throw away. The part after the “But” is a silencing tactic. Next time skip the “You’re angry”, state your point without diminishing others.

  218. Divorce Minister wrote:

    “Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for those who spent all their time highlighting the sins of others … My critics are no better than me and I am no better than them.” (Tullian Tchvidjian)

    An obvious attempt to divert his critics. On the other hand, the truth of the matter is that Christians need to speak words of correction and rebuke to those in the church who are off-track. I choose to listen to Timothy, rather than Tullian, on this:

    “… Be ready when the time is right and even when it is not [keep your sense of urgency, whether the opportunity seems favorable or unfavorable, whether convenient or inconvenient, whether welcome or unwelcome]; correct [those who err in doctrine or behavior], warn [those who sin] …” (2 Timothy 4:2)

  219. Max wrote:

    I choose to listen to Timothy

    Whoops, actually that is Paul speaking to Timothy! (But I bet Timothy would say the same thing!)

  220. Julie Anne wrote:

    TT is not behind the parody account. The parody acct persin seems to post mostly accurate information. I have only found one discrepancy in one tweet.

    On what basis were they shut down? Is it technically against the rules to run a parody account?

  221. John wrote:

    Respectfully siteseer, I am glad you did not see anything in him. That is the way he would want it. I am biased of course as I was saved 45 years ago under his preaching and surrendered to the Gospel call while reading his official biography. I think what many see is how much God’s Holy Spirit has used him as an evangelist.

    I am glad that Graham was used by God to bring you to a relationship with Him.
    I have a hard time knowing how much the Holy Spirit used Graham because there was so much deceit about what was going on with his ministry, as in the example I gave. Perhaps in the end we will find that his numbers were not so much greater than those of any committed Christian who speaks to others about the hope that is in them, without all the rewards of position and riches.

  222. @ siteseer:

    I hear you. My mother and later I myself had some real reservations about both Billy and his methods at the time. And in retrospect some of these reservations have been shown to be well grounded. I am not sure whether it is wise to be silent about the list of ‘mistakes were made’ because of the damage it may do to those who came to Christ during that time and in some way related to his ministry, or whether it is wise to come right out and say some things because of how some of his offspring have played on his name for some questionable stuff.

    I do know that it is written that a righteous man leaves an inheritance for his children’s children, and in this case there seems to have been something that went wrong with that process.

  223. okrapod wrote:

    @ siteseer:
    I hear you. My mother and later I myself had some real reservations about both Billy and his methods at the time. And in retrospect some of these reservations have been shown to be well grounded. I am not sure whether it is wise to be silent about the list of ‘mistakes were made’ because of the damage it may do to those who came to Christ during that time and in some way related to his ministry, or whether it is wise to come right out and say some things because of how some of his offspring have played on his name for some questionable stuff.
    I do know that it is written that a righteous man leaves an inheritance for his children’s children, and in this case there seems to have been something that went wrong with that process.

    Interesting article today from Religious News Service regarding Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, headed by Franklin Graham. Don’t miss the reference that this new tax status will no longer require a filing of (public)Form 990 including salaries of top officials, and the last line about FG’s salaries.

    https://sojo.net/articles/billy-grahams-ministry-tax-status-changes-will-safeguard-religious-liberty

  224. siteseer wrote:

    On what basis were they shut down? Is it technically against the rules to run a parody account?

    I do know the account was suspended. I’m not sure what the reasoning behind it, but since the very beginning, people have been trying to get it shut down. Parody accounts are fine as long as it is clearly marked as a parody account (it was).

    I love parody accounts. When you are dealing with so much heartache and abuse, it’s fun to laugh. So Tullian’s lil’ feelings were hurt by the parody account – – bring out the violins, wah, wah. I wish he’d be so concerned about how many children now have broken families on account of him trying to satisfy his lil’ male member. Good grief.

  225. Deb Willi wrote:

    this new tax status will no longer require a filing of (public)Form 990 including salaries of top officials, and the last line about FG’s salaries.

    I call bullfrogs on this. If their tax status was non-profit for lo these many years, then there is no reason *at all* to change *except* to conceal the compensation of the most highly-compensated employees. Reading the spin from Mark DeMoss is sickening. The filing of a 990 is onerous for an organization as large as BGEA/Samaritan’s Purse? Samaritan’s Purse handles much more difficult challenges (which they want us to believe when they are soliciting donations) than completing a 990 when they already have to provide W-2s or 1099s *and* have audited financials. DeMoss, IMO, is making a calculated guess that none of their small donors will know any better, and the big donors get perks.

    It truly grieves me to see what has happened with this organization which was influential in my life and my parents’ lives.

    Oh, and 9Marks refuses to file a 990, too, because they are a ministry of Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Conveniently, we have no way of knowing what Dever’s and Leeman’s total compensation is. Just as a matter of equity, I think that charitable donors and taxpayers deserve to know how these tax-favored donations are spent.

  226. @ Julie Anne:
    Twitter’s market value is headed in the wrong direction, and incidents like this may be one reason. Somebody who is clever would leverage a parody account. People who take themselves Very Seriously cannot tolerate that, even if they could profit from it. Babylon Bee (if it is run by Reformed folks) is a great example, IMO.

  227. Gram3 wrote:

    Deb Willi wrote:
    this new tax status will no longer require a filing of (public)Form 990 including salaries of top officials, and the last line about FG’s salaries.
    I call bullfrogs on this. If their tax status was non-profit for lo these many years, then there is no reason *at all* to change *except* to conceal the compensation of the most highly-compensated employees. Reading the spin from Mark DeMoss is sickening. The filing of a 990 is onerous for an organization as large as BGEA/Samaritan’s Purse? Samaritan’s Purse handles much more difficult challenges (which they want us to believe when they are soliciting donations) than completing a 990 when they already have to provide W-2s or 1099s *and* have audited financials. DeMoss, IMO, is making a calculated guess that none of their small donors will know any better, and the big donors get perks.
    It truly grieves me to see what has happened with this organization which was influential in my life and my parents’ lives.
    Oh, and 9Marks refuses to file a 990, too, because they are a ministry of Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Conveniently, we have no way of knowing what Dever’s and Leeman’s total compensation is. Just as a matter of equity, I think that charitable donors and taxpayers deserve to know how these tax-favored donations are spent.

    Here is what is sickening to me about all of this. These, so called, Christian men say that this allows freedom of religion. What it REALLY allows is these men to hide the money they make and hide how they spend the money that is given to them. They get the pewons all worked up about “Freedom of Religion” but in the end, the pewons are deceived. Of all the people in the world who should be open and forthcoming about their finances, Christian organizations should be at the forefront. Instead, they are trying to hide what they do. It is despicable! My money will NEVER be given to Christian organization that hides it’s financials and salaries!

    End rant

  228. Julie Anne wrote:

    I wish he’d be so concerned about how many children now have broken families on account of him trying to satisfy his lil’ male member.

    Orders from Captain Bonerhelmet cannot be disobeyed or refused or interfered with.

  229. Max wrote:

    Divorce Minister wrote:

    “Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for those who spent all their time highlighting the sins of others … My critics are no better than me and I am no better than them.” (Tullian Tchvidjian)

    So now TT = Jesus?
    At least in TT’s own mind?

  230. Hadn’t read this blog in quite awhile…..really find myself more frustrated when reading it. How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them. This really has become more of the Wartburg Rant. Beware the original Wartburg blogger went down the road to where he was denouncing Jews and calling for their synagogues to be burned.

  231. Casey wrote:

    This really has become more of the Wartburg Rant. Beware the original Wartburg blogger went down the road to where he was denouncing Jews and calling for their synagogues to be burned.

    Have you heard Dee or Deb ever advocate for that? The articles are peppered with advice how Churches should handle certain issues and respond to abuse.

  232. Casey wrote:

    How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them.

    The Bible is full of wisdom about how to resolve problems and how to prevent problems and all sorts of other wisdom. The problem is that some sectors of the Church refuse to actually do what the Bible says which tells us what Jesus taught. They either ignore what should not be ignored, cover it up, obfuscate, blame-shift, complain, threaten, spiritually blackmail people into capitulation. Oh, and they just Make.Stuff.Up and call it Biblical when it is nothing of the sort.

    9Marks is certainly not the only organization that does that, but it is a very good example of this particular problem in the conservative evangelical church. That’s where I used to be found on Sunday mornings and also during the week. Not any more because I was keyed out. Not for gross immorality or anything like that. For raising inconvenient questions.

    Mahaney is good to go in any 9Marks pulpit. The most godly woman who has scholarly credentials and a life which adorns the Gospel of Jesus Christ is *not* welcome behind the pulpit or in any authoritative position in the vast majority of conservative evangelical churches. I say there is something really rotten at the core of any system with moral reasoning that deficient. Evangelicals are not the only ones who have sold out the Faith in order to support the System and its institutions. The Catholic Church has done it, too. But conservative evangelicalism used to be my family, and that’s the sector I know the most about and grieve the most for.

  233. Casey wrote:

    Hadn’t read this blog in quite awhile…..really find myself more frustrated when reading it. How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them. This really has become more of the Wartburg Rant. Beware the original Wartburg blogger went down the road to where he was denouncing Jews and calling for their synagogues to be burned.

    It’s NOT their job to resolve a denomination’s problems, Casey. They are reporting on a problem that they have no control over, and neither does the victim.

    You’re frustrated by reading this blog?

    And what, pray tell, have you done to contact said denomination/Session and told them to straighten up and fly right?

  234. Casey wrote:

    .really find myself more frustrated when reading it. How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them.

    Shut down the press, they have no solutions! Yet another silencing gambit on this thread. Anyone want to drop in and use the “this is all gossip” ploy?

  235. Bill M wrote:

    Casey wrote:
    .really find myself more frustrated when reading it. How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them.
    Shut down the press, they have no solutions! Yet another silencing gambit on this thread. Anyone want to drop in and use the “this is all gossip” ploy?

    It was a toss-up for me among as to which Christianese silencing techniques to use: “gossip”, “bitter”, “slanderer”, “persecution” [PSA church’s pastors/elders],
    “backbiting”, “bringing an accusation against an elder(s) without cause”, must
    be among “the non-Elect”/going to Hell-and-this-blog-serves-as-proof.

    Of course, they have gotten to the part in their Bibles where Jesus flipped tables and chewed out religious leaders/white-washed tombs/brood of vipers.

  236. Velour wrote:

    Bill M wrote:
    Casey wrote:
    .really find myself more frustrated when reading it. How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them.
    Shut down the press, they have no solutions! Yet another silencing gambit on this thread. Anyone want to drop in and use the “this is all gossip” ploy?
    It was a toss-up for me among as to which Christianese silencing techniques to use: “gossip”, “bitter”, “slanderer”, “persecution” [PSA church’s pastors/elders],
    “backbiting”, “bringing an accusation against an elder(s) without cause”, must
    be among “the non-Elect”/going to Hell-and-this-blog-serves-as-proof.
    Of course, they have gotten to the part in their Bibles where Jesus flipped tables and chewed out religious leaders/white-washed tombs/brood of vipers.

    forgot to add “unforgiving”

    We really need to make a Bingo card of often used Christianese words/phrases to shut down honest conversation.

  237. Casey wrote:

    Hadn’t read this blog in quite awhile…..really find myself more frustrated when reading it. How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them.

    Suggestion: That you attend the 12-step meetings for family and friends of Sex Addicts.
    Sex Anon meetings. It’s like Al-Anon. Or you attend Al-Anon or Codependents Anoymous
    meetings. You lack basic, adult, healthy boundaries. You have asked Dee and Deb, and
    the rest of us, do become enablers. That’s really unhealthy. And it shows how unhealthy you are as well.

  238. Friend wrote:

    LT wrote:

    As for the helicopter swarming his home trying to “flush them out for a story”, one traffic helicopter went overhead in broad daylight once to get a single picture of Mark’s 7 figure mansion to run for a story on his excessive wealth.

    The hypersensitivity to helicopters strikes me as particularly nutso. Our local police chopper buzzes the area every couple of days, and we also get traffic, rescue, military, and other helicopters whizzing by. Then there are the numerous fixed-wing aircraft. Frankly, I worry more about kids with Silly String than about helicopters.

    Lol. That stuff is nasty to get out of cedar chips and wrought iron! That whole helicopter story is complete rubbish. The Driscolls lived in Woodlawn at that time, about 4 miles from Gray Harbor Community Hospital that has a….wait for it …..sizable Heliport. Any accidents north of the hospital off the 101 (and there are plenty) that required Air Evac, would have flown over their neighborhood. The traffic copters also cover that part of the 101 extensively. I am not sure the day the news station took that picture of the house could have been distinguished from any other day. Certainly there was no “flushing”.

    Additionally, most boys run around chasing helicopters when they see them, pretending to be Sharlto Copley on the A-Team or the like. They are not “traumatized” to the point of causing older boys to sleep with their parents for months while having regular “night terrors”.

    The other thing that did not ring true was this 8 year old boy saying he was willing to fight and die to “protect his sisters”. Oh, the tears that he pulled out of the audience that night! “Daddy is my jacket bullet proof”? I was surprised he didn’t have Celine Dion singing “My Love Will Go On” in the background with a blurry sunset over the ocean on the jumbo screen behind him.

    Driscoll has 5 kids under one roof. Boys aren’t that fond of girls at that age, especially older, bossy sisters. Wanting to die fighting to save them from the helicopter of death doesn’t ring truthful to me. Again, no signs of trauma were anywhere to be found when they are filmed from above for the TTC ad. You’d think with all that “trauma” that Grace would refuse to allow anything to fly over the children’s heads with cameras, let alone pay big coin to do it. Arizona has a lot of choppers too. How have the Driscolls managed to cope.

    I am not unsympathetic to what the Driscoll children have gone through. To the contrary. Having to uproot your entire life and leave all your friends and family to go from somewhere cold and wet to scorching hot cannot be easy, but especially for pre-teen and teenage children. I feel for them. But Mark used those kids as a human shield to garner undeserved sympathy and to deflect any criticism. When Ted Haggard did the same thing, Tucker Carlson reportedly said “that man is a ****ing pig” and he went after him. Carlson said he wasn’t going to until he saw Ted do that. Leave it to the Gateway clan.

    Mark was the master of his own destiny. His elders said he could be back in the pulpit within in 6 weeks had he just said he was sorry and tried not to be such a fascist tyrant. That was more than reasonable. Mark brought all of this on himself and to this day he is still trying to blame everyone else for what he put his own children through. The bad behavior of these Celebrity Pastors is getting as tiresome as the over privileged Hollywood set.

  239. Bill M wrote:

    Casey wrote:
    .really find myself more frustrated when reading it. How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them.
    Shut down the press, they have no solutions! Yet another silencing gambit on this thread. Anyone want to drop in and use the “this is all gossip” ploy?

    Casey must be a pastor. Their solution to abuse is make it a sin to talk about it. :o)

  240. Lydia wrote:

    Casey must be a pastor. Their solution to abuse is make it a sin to talk about it. :o)

    Right? I think Dee and deb would be happy to give advice on how to ‘resolve these situations’…too bad none of the people involved would actually listen.

  241. Lea wrote:

    too bad none of the people involved would actually listen.

    Exactly.

    You can give suggestions for solutions. But it does little good when people won’t see or acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place.

    Solutions are readily available. But we aren’t to that point yet. First we have to keep exposing the problems to the light of truth until more people are aware and the tide turns.

    We have to get to the point where those in ‘authority’ can’t continue to sin against the sheep under a cloak of darkness. We have to get to a place where ‘leaders’ can’t continue using, abusing, and marginalizing their victims with impunity.

  242. A 16 year old boy acting out that badly, as TT is described doing, and then going off to live a type of street life, probably had something terribly damaging done to him earlier in his life. This perhaps is one root of his sexual compulsions. If I am correct he needs real psychological help and of course should not be in ministry until that root damage is dealt with, if ever. I don’t know the full answer here and don’t excuse his adult actions, which seem to be getting worse with the corresponding cover ups and manipulation, but I have sympathy for that 16 year old kid.

  243. Casey wrote:

    Hadn’t read this blog in quite awhile…..really find myself more frustrated when reading it. How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them.

    “procedure in how to resolve these situations”???
    Exactly what kind of “procedures” can the DEEBS actually use to “resolve these situations?
    Any suggestions from you?
    Exposing these charlatans for what they are, making their shenanigans public, and making the opinions and feelings of others public seems to be garnering some attention. Other than that, what else is there that can be done, legally?

  244. @ DW:

    After I read your comment I googled his mom. First I got this about that whole generation.

    https://www.christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/the-next-generation-billy-graham/

    Then I went on to follow several links about his mom specifically. And now we note TT and his behavior, and perhaps part of his brother’s drive against child sexual abuse may be a clue to the puzzle. Of my previously stated options I think the place to start is with the psych people to see if there is something which can be dealt with. I really did not start there in my thinking before, but after what you said and after what I read I think a psych eval certainly would not hurt and may be the key to some solution.

    The whole thing is beyond sad at this point.

  245. Lydia wrote:

    Casey must be a pastor. Their solution to abuse is make it a sin to talk about it. :o)

    I made note Casey offered no solutions either, so because he/she had no solutions and doesn’t want to talk about it we shouldn’t either.

    Getting into the nitty gritty of these celebrities is messy but it helps put them back into the perspective they are mere mortals as are the rest of us and sometimes they are more damaged. I wonder if Casey also posts drive by comments on sites that rave over celebrities, where the groupies treat them as heroes.

  246. What is ExPastors?

    With TT involved, in a word: ExasPeraters.

    (Sorry, when I was skimming again ExPastors looked like Exasperates to me.)

  247. @ Gram3:
    Actually I think Borderline Personality Disorder people tend to use suicide as a manipulation method. Some actually do it but it seems that they are planning to get rescued “just in a nick of time” but the plan fails.

    Tullian has no idea the pain he has caused members of Coral Ridge. None. His sweet words are meaningless. Watch his walk to get an idea of what this man is like. It makes me ill to read his words because I know many people at Coral and the struggles. The way he paints everything is not reality. He controls the dialog though. He always controls the dialog. He is a survivor and very clever. Way before he got caught in his sexual acting out some smart people in Florida doubted his walk as a Christian based on other behaviors. His sexual conduct is not the only issue and when one looks at the whole picture of Tullian it is not pretty nor Biblical. Buyer beware!

  248. FYI! DARVO

    Sometimes I think TT is playing catch me if you can. He enjoys being the cat toying with the mouse. Even all these blogs about him somehow gives him some charge I think. Very weird. I imagine he loves to read them. Loves to figure out how to throw everyone off.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/DARVO

    Acronym of “Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender”. Coined by Jennifer J. Freyd in “Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory” (1997), Feminism & Psychology.
    Noun

    Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender. A behavior of perpetrators of wrongdoing (especially sexual offenders), when accused of attacking their victim, reversing the roles of victim and offender.

  249. Mara wrote:

    What is ExPastors?

    As far as I can tell, it is an equalish mix of people who left ministry because of burnout of some kind and people who got kicked out of ministry, probably for adultery (that likely with a parishioner).

    Their goal appears to be to get these guys back into ministry! Because their call is just too important and literally nobody else can do it. Especially not a woman.

  250. kay wrote:

    FYI! DARVO

    I mentioned that regarding another person (or was it TT) some days/weeks ago, and I agree about suicidal threats being manipulative behavior. Why even mention that he thought about suicide? There is at least one diagnosed Cluster B in my extended family. I get it, but they fool other people who do not see them up close and behind the curtain and also do not compare stories. Cluster Bs get by on creating silos of information, and, if no one ever cross-checks their stories, they can successfully pull off the DARVO tactic. No doubt you feel sick when you read his words and you know the truth. So sorry for your friends at Coral Ridge, especially the ones who were hurt by him and the ones who tried to warn the others.

  251. @ kay:

    “DARVO”
    +++++++++++

    man, i learn at least 3 new things every time i read here!

    (makes me a very good conversationalist!)

  252. Lea wrote:

    Their goal appears to be to get these guys back into ministry!

    I have that same concern. From their site:
    “Whether it’s serving in a pastoral or lay leadership role or as the janitor mopping floors, we believe the expastor should, once again, become reintegrated back into ministry, into a place where they are fulfilling their call.”
    Why? I am not saying they should have no care or assistance to rebuild their life, but why focus on putting them back into ministry. Why do they HAVE TO go back into ministry? Even if the person failed due to no major fault of their own, why is it so important they get back into ministry?

    Then there are those cases where the failure was due to their lack of fitness, i.e. it revealed they did not have “a call”. I don’t see a sense of careful consideration. Putting some ex pastors back into ministry is bad for everyone, including the ex pastor. The ExPastor site presupposes that there is no personal fulfillment for pastors outside of ministry, this is a grave error.

    I also question singling out pastors for this care, it displays yet another way pastors are elevated above us serfs. They need to have a special place that servers the needs of pastors only?

  253. Bill M wrote:

    Why? I am not saying they should have no care or assistance to rebuild their life, but why focus on putting them back into ministry. Why do they HAVE TO go back into ministry?

    I’m wondering if this has to do with either the ‘good ole boyz club’ and/or a talent for the ‘showmanship’ that so often these days stands in the place of the preaching of the Word of God?

    Is money-making the bottom line consideration?
    Was the ‘fallen’ minister a name-draw or a money-maker on the ‘circuit’ where these guys support each other with gratuities and book purchases and conferences?

    Honestly, if the ‘fallen’ pastor is meant to come back into ministry, then it will be Our Lord’s doing. St. Peter found that out and resolved to follow Our Lord until the end of his life with great humility.
    In tradition, his last known request was to be crucified upside down, as he did not see himself worthy of being crucified in the same manner as Christ. The remaining bones found in a niche marked ‘Peter is here’ in the lowest catacomb below St. Peter’s basilica do not have any foot bones, which is consistent with the way Peter would have been removed from his cross: by chopping him free at the ankles and leaving his feet nailed to the wood.

    I’d say ‘men’ need to back away and leave these fallen pastors to their Lord’s care during any genuine time of repentance and mourning, if some good is to come for future service in His Name.

    If you see whining, self-pitying, making excuses, blaming others, ‘book deals’ etc. ….. you aren’t seeing repentance, no.

  254. kay wrote:

    Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender. A behavior of perpetrators of wrongdoing (especially sexual offenders), when accused of attacking their victim, reversing the roles of victim and offender.

    And DARVO Works.
    Especially when third parties have ben pre-Groomed.

    It’s the Go-To counterattack for successful sociopaths whenever they get caught.

  255. Mara wrote:

    What is ExPastors?
    With TT involved, in a word: ExasPeraters.
    (Sorry, when I was skimming again ExPastors looked like Exasperates to me.)

    Freudian Slip or Holy Spirit?

  256. okrapod wrote:

    @ DW:

    After I read your comment I googled his mom. First I got this about that whole generation.

    https://www.christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/the-next-generation-billy-graham/

    I noticed right off the bat that most of that generation of House Graham had a LOT of trouble in marriages. More than one are on their third marriage.

    Has anyone ventured an explanation other than the various problems connected to Famous Father Syndrome?

  257. Bill M wrote:

    Casey wrote:

    .really find myself more frustrated when reading it. How about some procedure in how to resolve these situations and also how you two have tried to resolve them.

    Shut down the press, they have no solutions! Yet another silencing gambit on this thread. Anyone want to drop in and use the “this is all gossip” ploy?

    I’m waiting for the “Could it be… SATAN?” ploy myself.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Qfbrc1jdo

  258. Gram3 wrote:

    The problem is that some sectors of the Church refuse to actually do what the Bible says which tells us what Jesus taught.

    I agree. The tragedy of Tullian T’s story should serve as a warning. I see it as the fruit of the false gospel he believes, a half-truth, effectively an untruth. Yes we are saved from the penalty of sin by Christ’s death on the cross and God’s grace, but we are also saved from its power by the same grace. That is what’s missing, as is any reference of the need to fear God. It is the whole counsel of God’s word we need to heed not just the parts which make us feel comfortable. Scripture in numerous places exhorts us to repent and flee from sin (not just feel sorry), to pursue holiness (without which no one will see the Lord) and to deny self and take up our cross daily. In many churches, it seems, discipline is seen to be judgmental, unnecessary at best. TT’s confession on exPastors sounds good but where is the repentance? As I see it he is one of a growing number who subscribe to what has become known as ‘The Grace Revolution’. The error of this ‘Revolution’ is simply that it takes parts of God’s word, twist them into a new meaning (as the apostle Peter warned us in 2Peter 3:14-18) all the while ignoring or reinterpreting those parts which don’t fit their ‘gospel’.

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