Police Report Filed By an Alleged Stalking Victim of Dustin Boles

Recently, I was informed that a victim's advocate filed for a copy ot a police report. Here is a copy of that copy which was sent to me. I have shared it with Amy Smith at Watchkeep. Apparently, this victim, with whom I have had absolutely no contact, is the spouse of a current or former pastor at Mosaic Church. I did not make a copy of the third page of the report which merely gives the address of the victim. For the sake of other victims' advocates, please assume that this report is appropriately being made public on our blogs.

I apologize for the quality of this report. However, it is the best I could do on short notice. We will clear it up later today.

Update This is the direct link to the police report on Scribd. Thanks to Amy Smith.

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Comments

Police Report Filed By an Alleged Stalking Victim of Dustin Boles — 306 Comments

  1. dee wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    I think so as well. Please pray for this victim.

    I’ve already begun. Poor woman, may God give her strength and protect her and her family.
    Dee, thank you for what you are doing. Your work is making a difference for good. God Bless.

  2. @ Brian:
    Sorry BRIAN.
    I didn’t even think about ‘first’ …. i was so shocked by what I read in the post, I commented accordingly.
    You have a great day. 🙂

  3. While stalking is an offense in most jurisdictions, the penalties for first offenses are relatively minor. In addition to the criminal report, a victim should seek civil action, to obtain a protective order and an injunction. Then there are bot criminal and civil penalties if the behavior continues.

  4. 1. This puts the housing thing in an appropriately terrifying light.

    2. A sales job is way too unstructured for this man, since it makes it very easy for him to do stuff like this.

    3. Dustin is very dangerous, and if he was actually actively stalking a pastors wife I am even more disgusted that they gave him that warm fuzzy goodbye at church. These people are vile.

  5. “Apparently, this victim, with whom I have had absolutely no contact, is the spouse of a pastor at Mosaic Church”

    I cannot find the last name on the list of staff at Mosaic, btw.

  6. I thought the report of him moving to a house close to one of his victims was creepy. Now I agree, it’s much worse than that.

    Praying.

    Really confused that the church appears to be supporting this kind of behavior and attitude.

    On second thought, not surprising to think of the “attitude” part. Women have equal value before God, in comp teachings, but no actual worth.

  7. This is so creepy. And the way the church sent him off with rainbows & lollipops makes me puke. Shame on Mosaic.

  8. refugee wrote:

    Women have equal value before God, in comp teachings, but no actual worth.

    Equal value only to God, not man, not church. Bad teaching, Bad fruit.

  9. @ refugee:

    “Women have equal value before God, in comp teachings”
    +++++++++++++

    SO WHAT?? who freaking cares??

    (please know i’m not addressing you, refugee, but all the moron comp men who powder each other’s butts and are beyond preoccupied in protecting themselves, their careers, their egos, their power, their quest for significance,… oh, i could go on)

  10. Lea wrote:

    “Apparently, this victim, with whom I have had absolutely no contact, is the spouse of a pastor at Mosaic Church”
    I cannot find the last name on the list of staff at Mosaic, btw.

    She’s using her maiden name. She’s the wife of Worship Pastor E.

  11. Deb, Dee — find a copy of the Justin Boles Bimbo Selfie (if it hasn’t been taken down — oops, It Never Existed, Comrades). It would make a great header pic for postings regarding him.

  12. refugee wrote:

    Women have equal value before God, in comp teachings, but no actual worth.

    And North Korea is the Most Democratic Democracy in world history (and did I mention Democratic?). For the same reason: THEY SAY SO.

  13. Research indicates that one third of pastors may be NPD, that does not mean the other two thirds are normal. Boles is yet another example of the “other” two thirds. Seminaries and denominations need to seriously address why they attract so many psychopaths and start doing something to weed them out and deter them. Otherwise they should just shut down, they are being used to put a patina of safety and respectability over dangerous levels of corruption.

  14. Christiane wrote:

    dee wrote:
    @ Christiane:
    I think so as well. Please pray for this victim.
    I’ve already begun. Poor woman, may God give her strength and protect her and her family.

    Because now ALL the Good Christians in that church will have the knife out for her.

  15. Bill M wrote:

    Seminaries and denominations need to seriously address why they attract so many psychopaths and start doing something to weed them out and deter them.

    Why did Willie Sutton rob banks? I think it’s a simple matter of easy access to targets.

    I completely agree with you about weeding them out/deterring them though. Instead, I think the wolves are guarding the hen house here – the men who should be weeding out the power mad are power mad themselves. That is who the young men look up to. Nothing will be fixed until that is fixed, or until people withdraw from these types of churches en masse.

  16. elastigirl wrote:

    @ elastigirl:

    …in Newfoundland.

    ha! the Newfies would make short work of him if he stepped out of line there …. they don’t play up there

  17. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Because now ALL the Good Christians in that church will have the knife out for her.

    Perhaps they would not be if the women were allowed to share their stories. If they were truly given the truth of the matter.

    How can a pastor give the kind of speech he gave about how he loves Dustin knowing he had abused another staff members wife? Not that abuse of the average church member should be considered a lesser offense, because it absolutely should not, but with the way churches go we know too often it is. But this is elevated to affect staff and still? Why is her husband not angry?

    My mother was treated poorly as church staff and my father straight up left the church over it for years (she didn’t want to).

  18. Lea wrote:

    Thanks. I wasn’t doubting so much as being nosy.

    I understand. I was being nosy, too. With Facebook and Google it’s easy to be nosy.

  19. Lea wrote:

    Why is her husband not angry?

    Employment is a big draw. But why not go to the police? Did they (husband) tell the elders immediately? Why did it take so long to fire Dustin? Maybe it was all part of the shock . . . or conditioning by tbe church to turn the other cheek and let abusers continue to abuse?

  20. This is terrifying. Dustin Boles is a sociopath. He is dangerous. This young woman needs our prayers. Now that he is exposed and backed into a corner, there is no telling what he might do.

  21. It seems to me Dustin is stalking and/or bullying this victim. Why is Dustin’s wife putting up with this?

  22. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    .

    And North Korea is the Most Democratic Democracy in world history (and did I mention Democratic?). For the same reason: THEY SAY SO.

    North Korea is Best Korea, just like Complementarian Church is Best Church.

  23. I’m growing more upset with Mosaic staff and elders, who surely knew that Boles had a problem in this regard ‘before’ they dismissed him. And I’m growing angry – very angry – about the church climate that produces these sort of leaders (e.g., Acts 29).

    Unfortunately, a brave woman will now be shunned by those who should love and support her. For those who still idolize the man, poor Dustin will be considered the victim … while the true victim grieves over the conduct of her former “pastor” and friend.

    I’m now praying that God will instill a widespread “Holy Disgust” among His people which will rid this madness from church.

  24. Max wrote:

    I’m growing more upset with Mosaic staff and elders, who surely knew that Boles had a problem in this regard ‘before’ they dismissed him. And I’m growing angry – very angry – about the church climate that produces these sort of leaders (e.g., Acts 29).

    Unfortunately, a brave woman will now be shunned by those who should love and support her. For those who still idolize the man, poor Dustin will be considered the victim … while the true victim grieves over the conduct of her former “pastor” and friend.

    I’m now praying that God will instill a widespread “Holy Disgust” among His people which will rid this madness from church.

    Amen.

    I wonder what dirt there is in Boles from his past .. In DFW or before. I find it very hard to believe this is new activity for him.

  25. Max wrote:

    I’m growing more upset with Mosaic staff and elders, who surely knew that Boles had a problem in this regard ‘before’ they dismissed him.

    According to Dustin in the cheery speech they allowed him to make to play before the congregation as a sort of way of getting the last word, he wasn’t fired at all!

    I know sometimes it’s easier legally to let people resign instead of firing them, but it’s also nice to make an actual stand. And being ‘asked’ to resign is the same thing as firing, so they shouldn’t have allowed him to make that statement. I thought that whole deal was awful..

  26. Bridget wrote:

    Why did it take so long to fire Dustin? Maybe it was all part of the shock . . . or conditioning by tbe church to turn the other cheek and let abusers continue to abuse?

    Then the church has not got the ‘turn the other cheek’ concept understood properly in its historical meaning. In Roman times, a Roman soldier could strike someone with their palm, but it was thought beneath a Roman to strike someone with the back of their hand. So if the victim ‘turned the other cheek’, it would have meant that the soldier would have to disgrace himself to hit the victim again with the back of his hand.
    No, ‘turning the other cheek’ was a strategy to get the assailant to think about his role in the abuse, and how, if it continued, then HE would be as disgraced by his actions publicly as the victim.
    So if neo-Cals are relying on victims ‘cooperating’ with abuse by ‘turning the other cheek’, they got their gospel wrong this time, yes.

    It WAS Our Lord’s way to get people to stop and think, as in the case of the stoning of the adulteress. He knew the men with stones in their hands were ‘legally’ permitted to execute her, but He said something and He wrote something that made them pause, consider their own ‘place’ in the BIGGER picture, and they were humbled, ashamed, and walked away. Non violent intervention? You bet.

  27. Bill M wrote:

    Research indicates that one third of pastors may be NPD, that does not mean the other two thirds are normal. Boles is yet another example of the “other” two thirds. Seminaries and denominations need to seriously address why they attract so many psychopaths and start doing something to weed them out and deter them. Otherwise they should just shut down, they are being used to put a patina of safety and respectability over dangerous levels of corruption.

    This takes me back to Spotlight, which we finally got around to watching on Netflix this week, the scene where the reporters are trying to confirm with the psychologist (psychiatrist?) that there might be as many as 13 pedophile priests in Boston, and he says, “No, that can’t be right,” and you see the reporters start to relax, until he goes on. Statistics say something like 6%, which would be more like 90 pedophile priests in Boston — that would be a more realistic number. And they say, 90????????? And then, after some research, they come up with 87.

    I don’t remember what population he was referring to, if it was 6% of the general population, or just 6% of priests, but if you take that idea and apply it to the thousands of churches out there… It’s no wonder that these stories are popping up all over the place.

    People, gotta be realists. Gotta protect the vulnerable. Get those rose-colored glasses off.

  28. As we all know, stalking is not just limited to movie stars. I am glad she is moving forward in her complaint. Unfortunately, stalking behavior can exacerbate into more dangerous behavior. Some stalkers will do dangerous things to get their target’s attention or even worse will physically harm her/him if they are frustrated by the rejection.
    This man needs a psych evaluation-yesterday. Jade does need protection! They should take his actions seriously and not wait until something potentially tragic happens. I wonder where his wife’s head is at? Maybe they are stuck in a mutual fantasy. Bottom line: we don’t know what is going on in their heads, therefore this situation needs to be handled now.

  29. Lea wrote:

    How can a pastor give the kind of speech he gave about how he loves Dustin knowing he had abused another staff members wife?

    “Perv unto Perv o’er the world is Brother…”

    Plus Privilege of Pastoral Rank. Paterfamilias Romanus has absolute sexual rights over all his inferiors.

  30. Ann wrote:

    Some stalkers will do dangerous things to get their target’s attention or even worse will physically harm her/him if they are frustrated by the rejection.

    I think stalking is so scary because so little can be done about it until something serious happens.

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Plus Privilege of Pastoral Rank.

    I’m so grossed out by all of this. Maybe I need to take some time off and think happy thoughts.

  31. Lea wrote:

    Ann wrote:
    Some stalkers will do dangerous things to get their target’s attention or even worse will physically harm her/him if they are frustrated by the rejection.
    I think stalking is so scary because so little can be done about it until something serious happens.

    “Serious” including the target winding up dead.

    And an experienced professional stalker will know just how far to push the stalk without stepping over the line and getting caught. Plausible Deniability, lawyering up, grooming third parties, grooming authority figures who might interfere…

  32. Dustin is way out of control.

    I’m going to bet that an investigator would find a history of similar acts.

    I notice the report is dated the 12th, the same day the first article appeared here on WW but the victim describes behavior on Dustin’s part that goes back over several incidents.

    The victim is ok with her name being made public on the form, I assume?

  33. Christiane wrote:

    No, ‘turning the other cheek’ was a strategy to get the assailant to think about his role in the abuse, and how, if it continued, then HE would be as disgraced by his actions publicly as the victim.

    “YOU DISHONOR ME!”
    “No — You have Dishonored yourself!”
    Game of Thrones, the episode where Sam visits his family

  34. Lea wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Plus Privilege of Pastoral Rank.
    I’m so grossed out by all of this. Maybe I need to take some time off and think happy thoughts.

    I suggest binge-watching one of the early seasons of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

  35. Max wrote:

    I’m growing more upset with Mosaic staff and elders, who surely knew that Boles had a problem in this regard ‘before’ they dismissed him.

    Maybe they are afraid of him.

    This puts the Oasis attempt to get Dustin restored in an even more horrible light.

  36. refugee wrote:

    People, gotta be realists. Gotta protect the vulnerable. Get those rose-colored glasses off.

    To use a different perspective, I am an engineer. Consider what would happen if a sizable percentage of engineers were not just incompetent but were actively designing systems to maim and injure. How long would society endure it before tearing apart the engineering review boards and replacing them with people who understood the problem and would purge the bad actors.

    By no means am I saying all pastors and churches are corrupt, only that corruption and spiritual injury is much too prevalent. I am struggling to think of another institution as deserving of caveat emptor, not just the typical buyer beware, but the full concept that the individual alone is responsible for determining their safety. There is no seal of approval, no seminary or denomination that you should rely on.

  37. siteseer wrote:

    Maybe they are afraid of him.

    Quite possibly. Boles is pushing 50 years old, compared to the rest of the staff who are mere children. If a man will stalk a church member after being fired as her pastor, he is capable of anything.

  38. Very concerned. This police report was filed over 2 months AFTER Dustin’s big exit and supposed ‘repentance’???

    It seems that both Dustin and the victim previously lived in DFW/Keller TX area. Dustin was Associate Pastor at The Met Church in Keller TX 1997-2008 before relocating to Ocean Springs, MS. Victim may have also relocated from DFW/Keller TX to Ocean Springs, MS. Was her husband the Mosaic pastor recruited, in part, due to Dustin having eyes for his wife? Has Dustin been stalking her for 6-10 years? Who else has he been stalking and for how long?

    I feel like the creeper alert system on Dustin Boles can go to DEFCON1 now.

  39. Melissa wrote:

    I wonder what dirt there is in Boles from his past

    I would be curious to know who ordained him into gospel ministry!

  40. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Serious” including the target winding up dead.

    And an experienced professional stalker will know just how far to push the stalk without stepping over the line and getting caught. Plausible Deniability, lawyering up, grooming third parties, grooming authority figures who might interfere…

    the fact that he was doing these kinds of things to women ‘openly’ in front of other husbands (the hot tub incident) and in close proximity to a husband (the SUV incident), and the fact that he attacked the wife of a fellow pastor …. all these things show he has lost touch with reality in keeping his libido within ‘normal’ limits ….

    I’d say he is very disturbed, and that does not bode well for the stalking behavior, no. Jade needs to take serious precautions for her safety, and if her husband is not on board with this, then she will have to take precautions for the safety of her child and her husband also.

    She will need to be the ‘opposite’ of what neo-Cal women are trained to be: she will need to be vocal, she will need to be strong, she will need to stand up to the ‘crazy’ and to ask for PROFESSIONAL AND LEGAL help. Her jogging alone through the city does not sound safe, no. She works, so a good alarm system in her home ought to be affordable, and now’s the time. She can visit the local police department, get to know them, and talk to a detective about what is happening to her. A lawyer? YES. NOW.
    Jade is a mom. That ALONE makes her worth any expense and trouble to increase her safety and well-being and prevent a potential tragedy from unfolding. Stalkers can kill if frustrated. That is what we know. Anyone being stalked is in danger, yes.

  41. Lea wrote:

    I’m so grossed out by all of this. Maybe I need to take some time off and think happy thoughts.

    Yes, it is sickening.

    My mind is rolling around the fact that this is the type of man who starts with a group of 19 meeting in his house and quickly grows it to a huge group that is being covered in the newspaper…

    And, btw, where is the newspaper now? When a pastor turns out to be a total whack job it isn’t as newsworthy as the church being a happening place?

  42. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I suggest binge-watching one of the early seasons of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

    Princess Twilight Sparkle!

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And an experienced professional stalker will know just how far to push the stalk without stepping over the line and getting caught. Plausible Deniability

    Exactly. They make it just legal enough not to get thrown in jail and just creepy enough to make the point that you are not safe.

  43. Lea wrote:

    I’m so grossed out by all of this. Maybe I need to take some time off and think happy thoughts.

    My alternate ‘escape’ was to watch Netflix ‘Remote Area Medical’.
    Big mistake.
    What a sad, sad documentary. Heartbreaking! I need to save that one for Advent or Lenten Season. Whew!

  44. Bill M wrote:

    To use a different perspective, I am an engineer. Consider what would happen if a sizable percentage of engineers were not just incompetent but were actively designing systems to maim and injure. How long would society endure it before tearing apart the engineering review boards and replacing them with people who understood the problem and would purge the bad actors.

    By no means am I saying all pastors and churches are corrupt, only that corruption and spiritual injury is much too prevalent. I am struggling to think of another institution as deserving of caveat emptor, not just the typical buyer beware, but the full concept that the individual alone is responsible for determining their safety. There is no seal of approval, no seminary or denomination that you should rely on.

    Well, just look at law enforcement. They know that the job can attract sociopaths and have set up rigorous procedures to try to weed them out, and look how many bad apples still get through. Does the church have any safeguards at all?

  45. refugee wrote:

    This takes me back to Spotlight, which we finally got around to watching on Netflix this week, the scene where the reporters are trying to confirm with the psychologist (psychiatrist?) that there might be as many as 13 pedophile priests in Boston, and he says, “No, that can’t be right,” and you see the reporters start to relax, until he goes on. Statistics say something like 6%, which would be more like 90 pedophile priests in Boston — that would be a more realistic number. And they say, 90????????? And then, after some research, they come up with 87.

    I don’t remember what population he was referring to, if it was 6% of the general population, or just 6% of priests, but if you take that idea and apply it to the thousands of churches out there… It’s no wonder that these stories are popping up all over the place.

    I’m fairly certain the reference is to 6% of Catholic priests. The research was done by Richard Sipe. The *Spotlight* movie has several scenes with Richard Sipe on the phone with Boston Globe’s Spotlight team members. For details, see his website:

    http://www.awrsipe.com/about_richard.html

    “A.W. RICHARD SIPE is a Certified Clinical Mental Health Counselor who earlier spent 18 years as a Benedictine monk and priest. He was trained specifically to deal with the mental health problems of Roman Catholic Priests. In the process of training and therapy, he conducted a 25-year ethnographic study of the celibate/sexual behavior of that population. His study, published in 1990, is now considered a classic.”

  46. From the police report “… since Dustin was forced to resign from the church he has been stalking and harassing her …”

    Apparently, Mr. Boles now feels it is OK to act creepy and sleazy since he no longer is bound by the church which hindered him (a little) from such behavior. He has found new freedom to be a creep and sleaze – it must be like a breath of fresh air to him!

  47. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I’m fairly certain the reference is to 6% of Catholic priests.

    That was my understanding when I saw the film. It’s a great film and I highly recommend it and I’m Catholic. People need to face the truth in order to battle evil. This ‘hiding’ and ‘looking away’ cr%p needs to cease forever. The Church has work to do to make sure this moves forward in a positive direction.

  48. Melissa wrote:

    Unfortunately, a brave woman will now be shunned by those who should love and support her.

    If Boles’ victims continue to step forward and add further well-deserved embarrassment to their “church”, we should consider printing some t-shirts for them to wear in Ocean Springs:

    “Proudly Shunned by Mosaic Church”

  49. Max wrote:

    “Proudly Shunned”

    I am currently being shunned by a YRR pastor in my area because I openly talk about the ails of New Calvinism to anyone who will listen in my community. For a while, he was friendly enough when we bumped into each other at the grocery store. One day, I felt particularly ornery when he asked me in the chips section if I knew where the Christmas-shaped pretzels were at. I responded “You mean the ones that look like Mark Driscol?!” He hasn’t talked to me since.

  50. Friend wrote:

    Dude uses Lady Clairol too… you know, “Is it true blondes have more fun? Why not be a blonde and see?”

    maybe at the core of his perversion is the usual neo-Cal suspect: a man who demands women to be ‘submissive by the order of God’ may likely harbor some doubts about his OWN masculinity, and needs to shore it up by being catered to, obeyed, worshipped, and adored.

  51. You have no idea how much this really pisses me off!! I dealt with a false accusation and part of it was stalking. The guy who alleged it invited me into his home, asked me to change the password to his computer for sexual purity reasons, and called me and wanted to have many lunches. He was trying to get me into Eric Simmons Redeemer Arlington. He then claimed I was a threat to his family and I was spoken to about stalking. You can read about it here.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/08/08/how-i-managed-a-false-accusation-given-birth-to-by-a-usaf-captain-and-care-group-leader-from-redeemer-arlington-for-408-days/

    When I was managing the false accusation I changed me entire life to avoid the Care Group Leader/USAF Captain from Sovereign Grace. I changed my work schedule, used the restroom on the other side of the building, and avoided him at all costs. Jordan Kaulfin dsciplied him and yet Andrew by using his Air Force Captain status taught me why rape and sexual assault is a problem in the military.

    THIS is what stalking is. Its showing up at someone’s place unannounced. Following them around town. Its calling them on the phone when they don’t want to be contacted. I researched some of this after my false accusation but what Dustin Boles is doing is stalking.

  52. siteseer wrote:

    Does the church have any safeguards at all?

    Bill M wrote:

    There is no seal of approval, no seminary or denomination that you should rely on.

    The dangers are huge. Some churches do use companies that specialize in clergy background checks, etc. One company I have heard of is SafeChurch. This is NOT an endorsement, as I don’t know how good the service is. However, churches don’t have to be their own sole experts in the area of protecting the flock–and they have no excuse to try to handle the job alone, since such companies exist.

    There’s a compelling financial argument for risk management, if money is all the “leaders” care about. Maybe church members can start demanding that churches find an outside company to help manage risk.

    (Fun fact: “Risk” is not in the KJV.)

  53. Max wrote:

    Apparently, Mr. Boles now feels it is OK to act creepy and sleazy since he no longer is bound by the church which hindered him (a little) from such behavior. He has found new freedom to be a creep and sleaze – it must be like a breath of fresh air to him!

    But I thought that leaving the ministry freed him from temptation. Sooooo confused…. 🙁

  54. Max wrote:

    One day, I felt particularly ornery when he asked me in the chips section if I knew where the Christmas-shaped pretzels were at. I responded “You mean the ones that look like Mark Driscol?!”

    Paging Pound Sand: may we please have special-edition red and green Mark Driscoll pretzels this December? Let’s be really bad and put “Happy Holidays” on the label!

  55. @ Dave (Eagle):
    Hi EAGLE,
    please understand that the USAF Academy in Colorado has a ‘history’ that is not something they want publicized. There WAS a ‘connection’ among the higher ups politically and in the AF to attempts to ‘convert’ cadets to a kind of fundamentalism using methods that were at best questionable and at worse, abusive. These people even targeted Jewish cadets and attempted to harass them into ‘conversion’ with some really heavy coercion. The ethics of this morally were sick: the cadets depended on ‘leadership’ to be responsible honorable people, not religious abusers.

    No, the USAF Academy at Colorado had a dark chapter and I understand has since recovered and made correction and set in place some guidelines to prevent spiritual abuse of cadets.

    Our military are human, EAGLE, but on the whole they are an honorable lot. I was horrified to read what you were put through. But then I remembered the spiritual abuse of those cadets.

  56. Friend wrote:

    I thought that leaving the ministry freed him from temptation

    The ministry only tempted him to flee from temptation. He obviously is not tempted to avoid temptation any longer.

  57. Just like the Mark Driscoll saga, and other Neo-call boys that fall, all the other neo-call bros will remain silent… If they are really the best way to “protect” women, where are they now????

  58. Did someone say that Boles was a youth pastor at other churches before he became a “lead pastor” at Mosaic? Whew! Think about it.

  59. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    the other neo-call bros will remain silent

    Yep, stick together or fall together. However, it was interesting to watch how quickly the New Calvinist who’s-who distanced Driscoll, after promoting him for years. When his liabilities exceeded his assets, they moved on without him. Considering how many of the big dogs are falling, it’s quite possible that Boles has some dirt on other New Calvinist leaders/beer buddies – so they are mum on any criticism of him.

  60. Lea wrote:

    …if he was actually actively stalking a pastors wife I am even more disgusted that they gave him that warm fuzzy goodbye at church. These people are vile.

    They apparently care more about the institution that about the truth. Protecting the institution, the system, is paramount, if telling a cold, hard, ugly truth would hurt it, they tend to gloss, sugar coat, and flat out lie, then seek to ruthlessly destroy those who do care something about the truth.

    Thing is, our Lord is apparently not at all afraid of cold, hard, ugly truths. Anyone reading the Bible and the things that it highlights that His Chosen People did could come to no other conceivable conclusion.

    This makes me think that perhaps those who obfuscate and then destroy truth tellers and whistle blowers have made their primary enemy the Lord Himself. Reminds me of a story many years ago, possibly apocryphal, about a group of Christians or Christians so-called who thought they were engaged in some Great Work for the Lord in their city, doing who knows what, perhaps planting churches or conducting what they thought was spiritual warfare or what-have-you, who came to a person locally known to have a prophetic gift and told him/her “We’re trying to do the Lord’s work, but a territorial spirit keeps thwarting us, what do we do?” Upon which the prophet said, “The Lord tells me HE is the territorial spirit opposing you!”

  61. Friend wrote:

    They all look like they want me to put loose change in their grubby paper cups.
    Why can’t today’s Men of the Cloth find any cloth that isn’t rumpled, ripped, and faded?

    When I saw them, I thought the first three (out of the four) looked like the same guy but with different clothes on for each photo.

  62. @ Friend:
    I was young and now am old. I don’t have a particular problem with church form, as long as there is some substance to it. But, the New Calvinists are pushing “culturally relevant” to the extreme. The whole thing is missing a level of reverence that should be expected within the Body of Christ. You don’t have to look like the world to reach the world. Southern Baptists in suits and ties found this old sinner years ago living in muck and mire.

  63. Friend wrote:

    Maybe church members can start demanding that churches find an outside company to help manage risk.

    Insists the new pastor candidate be give a full psychological exam by a trained expert.

  64. Burwell wrote:

    I wonder if Boles’ new employer is aware of this incident report.

    They publish such items in the police reports section of our local newspaper. A lady with the same first/last name as my wife was arrested on a DWI – our Sunday School class made a big deal out of it.

  65. Max wrote:

    @ Friend:
    I was young and now am old. I don’t have a particular problem with church form, as long as there is some substance to it. But, the New Calvinists are pushing “culturally relevant” to the extreme.

    “Nothing gets old-fashioned faster than Over-Relevance.”
    — My old DM in the parking lot after a D&D all-nighter

    Anyone remember Rowan & Martin’s Laugh-In (GROOVY, MAN!)? And how well it’s aged? Now imagine if Dan & Dick were presenting Eternal Truths about Life, The Universe, and Everything instead of just a topical comedy revue…

  66. Max wrote:

    The whole thing is missing a level of reverence that should be expected within the Body of Christ.

    I think ‘reverence’ in evangelical Christianity is most vibrant in the service it gives to the needy and the vulnerable; and how the Churches respond in times of natural disasters, with hands-on help and food and generosity.
    ‘Reverence’ to God isn’t a clean suit and pompadoured haircut so much as it is a basic care for those most dear to the heart of Christ.

    Those neo-Cal folks are focused on their own ‘headship’, not His. That and ‘entertaining’ on stage and bringing in the crowds. Taking up the cross isn’t exactly a priority when you are worried about maintaining control and keeping the money flowing in. Those ‘casual’ threads are aimed at the young crowd, the ones who stand around and jump up and down when the ‘praise band’ is doing its thing.

    Reverent? When the noise stops and money runs out and last victim goes to the police, then maybe someone will be humbled enough to get down on his knees in private and ask for God’s mercy(?) It could happen. The Holy Spirit goes where He will. It could happen.

  67. Christiane wrote:

    @ Dave (Eagle):
    Hi EAGLE,
    please understand that the USAF Academy in Colorado has a ‘history’ that is not something they want publicized. There WAS a ‘connection’ among the higher ups politically and in the AF to attempts to ‘convert’ cadets to a kind of fundamentalism using methods that were at best questionable and at worse, abusive. These people even targeted Jewish cadets and attempted to harass them into ‘conversion’ with some really heavy coercion.

    That explains the gloating from Focus on the Family et al about how “In the years since VIETNAM, our Armed Forces are now filled with Born-Again Bible-Believing Christians”. And the calls for a military coup from pulpits during that Congressional deadlock some years ago.

    P.S. Colo Spgs is also home to the headquarters of a LOT of Christianese Culture War “Ministries” as well as the USAF Academy. I wonder if like DC, they wanted to be close to Power?

    P.P.S. The Air Force holds the vast majority of America’s nukes. I wonder if that is also a factor about Christianese Military Complex? Nothing says “POWER” like nukes.

  68. Friend wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Just look at Poor Poor Pitiful Him!
    https://twitter.com/GozoYTristeza/status/775111002643918848

    Dude uses Lady Clairol too… you know, “Is it true blondes have more fun? Why not be a blonde and see?”

    A little momento from classic Dr Demento:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rNfZxgkH7k

    (Many years ago in San Diego SF fandom, there was this one femfan named Susan Lanoue, a lawyer who at the time worked for the County DA’s office. She had long blonde hair, and her hobby was cosplaying at local SF conventions (and San Diego Comic Con). Well, she was one of the Masquerade judges at this one local con, and three of her friends donned long blonde wigs (matching her natural hairstyle) and performed that number onstage before her. She was turning bright red by the end.)

  69. Max wrote:

    Melissa wrote:

    Unfortunately, a brave woman will now be shunned by those who should love and support her.

    If Boles’ victims continue to step forward and add further well-deserved embarrassment to their “church”, we should consider printing some t-shirts for them to wear in Ocean Springs:

    “Proudly Shunned by Mosaic Church”

    How about a generic “I SURVIVED (name of church here)”?

  70. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    P.P.S. The Air Force holds the vast majority of America’s nukes. I wonder if that is also a factor about Christianese Military Complex? Nothing says “POWER” like nukes.

    Oh my God!
    some time ago, AF high command heads rolled after an Air Force bomber flew from the northern part of the US down to Texas with its nuclear weapons armed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_Air_Force_nuclear_weapons_incident

  71. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It’s called “Grunge” and was very fashionable some 25 years ago.

    Oh man. Are we going back to doc martins now?

    Are modern churches taking their cues from Smells Like Teen Spirit?

  72. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    P.P.S. The Air Force holds the vast majority of America’s nukes. I wonder if that is also a factor about Christianese Military Complex? Nothing says “POWER” like nukes.

    Power? I’d say idiocy is more like it.
    The same goes for an ixtian coup hatched by those testosterone over-dosed maniacs.
    Did they learn nothing from Cromwell?

  73. Lea wrote:

    2. A sales job is way too unstructured for this man, since it makes it very easy for him to do stuff like this.

    Which might explain why he loves his new job so much!

  74. Christiane wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    P.P.S. The Air Force holds the vast majority of America’s nukes. I wonder if that is also a factor about Christianese Military Complex? Nothing says “POWER” like nukes.

    Oh my God!
    some time ago, AF high command heads rolled after an Air Force bomber flew from the northern part of the US down to Texas with its nuclear weapons armed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_Air_Force_nuclear_weapons_incident

    Well, two things.

    1) Proselytizing in the Air Force has been very strongly discouraged for years now. Some sleazy people used to try to advance their careers by proclaiming their great Christian faith. Those days are gone–but such folks were always quite transparent, and religious zeal was never part of the performance review.

    2) There was nothing religious about the 2007 incident of losing track of nukes and flying them across the country. Yes, after the incident was revealed by whistle blowers, prominent heads rolled, including that of the Chief of Staff. This shows improvement.

    The US military is made up of regular ordinary folks like you and me. The difference is that they give up many of their rights and put themselves in harm’s way for the 99% of us who don’t serve.

  75. @ siteseer:
    And how about teachers? I said it before that my school district is under major scrutiny because of a horrible sexual abuse incident last year. This morning while I was getting ready for work, I heard two negative reports about my school district regarding this subject. Why can’t the church be as diligent after all the scandals that have been exposed?

  76. @ Max:
    I think I would enjoy hanging out with you because sometimes I just want to let things fly out of my mouth too. However, you may have to explain to me the meaning of the reference to Mark Driscoll.

  77. Complementarianism not stop domestic abuse, as we have observed in a previous post here.

    It also appears that it Complementarianism can’t protect a Christian woman from being stalked by a former pastor(presumed a Christian man?).

    Looks like it’s going to take the long arm of the law to protect that woman.
    I guess the arm of complementarianism is too short and ineffectual.

  78. Friend wrote:

    2) There was nothing religious about the 2007 incident of losing track of nukes and flying them across the country.

    When this happened, my husband who is retired from the military was talking to my brother-in-law who is a retired naval captain. They both said NO ONE ‘loses track of nukes’, so they were NOT impressed with ‘the story’ told to the press, no.

  79. Mara wrote:

    Looks like it’s going to take the long arm of the law to protect that woman.
    I guess the arm of complementarianism is too short and ineffectual.

    I fear complementarianism is just a red herring…

  80. Muff Potter wrote:

    Power? I’d say idiocy is more like it.
    The same goes for an ixtian coup hatched by those testosterone over-dosed maniacs.
    Did they learn nothing from Cromwell?

    Whether the atrocities were from a religious or secular authoritarian state, there are always those in the next generation that thinks they can do better with unlimited power. There are those who just want power but beware the ones that want to “help” you.

  81. Jade needs to let her work know about Dustin, if she hasn’t already. She needs to make sure that all supervisors know him by his picture. She needs to let the security know about this sick man. To insure her safety, I would even have security walk her to her car, if at all possible. We don’t want her to become a statistic. Another person killed by some crazy stalker. I also think that Boles has a mighty dirty past hidden. This type of stuff just doesn’t start happening. It is something that is on going, and may start out simple, progresses. Didn’t he say he had struggled with this all his life? Read between the lines.

  82. I’m also wondering how Dustin’s work would feel about his alleged activities, whether or not they happened “on the clock.” Now that they are a matter of public record.

    Hopefully, shedding some light on the situation may motivate this guy to get some real help.

  83. Lea wrote:

    Are we going back to doc martins now?

    Cough cough…’Going back’? Us 80’s post punks may still wear Docs. Is nothing sacred any more? Don’t let Numo see you diss the Doc.

  84. Christiane wrote:

    They both said NO ONE ‘loses track of nukes’, so they were NOT impressed with ‘the story’ told to the press, no.

    Well, nobody was impressed, but I don’t recall evidence that this was a religiously motivated activity. They flew nukes from North Dakota to Louisiana. How would that advance a religious cause? The theory of idiotic, complacent irresponsibility fits better, in my humble view. As I recall, there was a long history of “grade inflation” on reports and tests that always had to have perfect scores: nobody was allowed to report an error, so nobody learned. Here’s one story:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/10/20/air-force-punishes-70-airmen-for-accidental-nuke-armed-b-52-flight.html

    To get back on topic, it is vaguely reminiscent of certain churches, hmm…

  85. @ Friend:

    Yes. And there was the incident in 1961 near Goldsboro, NC where a nuclear bomb ended up I think in a swamp or something over there. This sort of thing has nothing to do with religion. It is called FUBAR.

  86. I’m only asking because I’m curious (and slightly confused), but does anyone know what his likely motive is for stalking her?

    Did she report him to the church and/or police for inappropriate / unwanted touching previously, so he’s trying to scare her now (revenge)?

    Or. does he still have a thing for her, is infatuated. and doesn’t know how to take “no” for an answer?

    I don’t defend this guy’s actions either way (regardless of whatever his motive is), I’m just curious and maybe having a hard time following this story.

    I don’t know what the rules are in her state, but if it’s legal, she should maybe purchase a handgun and be sure that if the weirdo follows her, he can observe her as she drives to the nearest shooting range and takes up target practice.

  87. refugee wrote:

    On second thought, not surprising to think of the “attitude” part. Women have equal value before God, in comp teachings, but no actual worth.

    That about sums it up.

    Complementarians give a lot of lip service to valuing women, but they don’t don’t put it into action, especially not when women are in danger or being hurt in some way.

  88. Bill M wrote:

    Research indicates that one third of pastors may be NPD, that does not mean the other two thirds are normal. Boles is yet another example of the “other” two thirds. Seminaries and denominations need to seriously address why they attract so many psychopaths and start doing something to weed them out and deter them. Otherwise they should just shut down, they are being used to put a patina of safety and respectability over dangerous levels of corruption.

    I saw an article several months ago (don’t remember where and did not book mark it) about police departments being concerned about attracting the wrong kind of applicants, so some of them do have testing in place to weed out the violent or NPD types.

  89. ishy wrote:

    Mara wrote:

    Looks like it’s going to take the long arm of the law to protect that woman.
    I guess the arm of complementarianism is too short and ineffectual.

    I fear complementarianism is just a red herring…

    On too many levels the COMP church is a very unsafe place for a woman to be.

  90. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And an experienced professional stalker will know just how far to push the stalk without stepping over the line and getting caught. Plausible Deniability, lawyering up, grooming third parties, grooming authority figures who might interfere…

    It’s been awhile since I read his book, but I think Gavin de Becker has a chapter or two (in his book “The Gift of Fear”) on how to handle stalkers, what to do and what not to do.

    I have a copy of that book somewhere. I should probably re-read it to refresh my memory of what all he says.

    I do remember his advice on if you have a persistent stalker who is calling you constantly: switch phone numbers, let the weirdo keep dialing the old one, but never EVER pick up and answer if it’s the weirdo.

    If you pick up the phone on the 40th ring (if you have Caller ID) knowing it’s the weirdo, he said the lesson the weirdo just learned is that you will eventually pick up, even if it takes 40 rings. So never ever answer.

  91. Friend wrote:

    The theory of idiotic, complacent irresponsibility fits better, in my humble view.

    this might be possible in other areas, but not with nukes in the military, no, and likely you will never know the whole story for many reasons

    As for ‘religious’ activity in the military, occasionally something crazy does happen;
    but there is history between some areas of our military and some who would foster extreme forms of proselytizing. Apparently there are also those who would like this not to be publicized, but the more it is, the better chance of protecting our troops from harassment. Our military chaplains have a brilliant history of service, and they do NOT deserve to have creepy politically-motivated proselytizing going on by extremists with ties to dominionism, no. I’m very proud of our military AND of the distinguished service of our military chaplains. I can trust the military to root out the creeps who would harass our troops, even the ones with connections to big money and to political power.

  92. Please keep Amy and me in your prayers. We are receiving reports about previous history of similar behavior. We are trying to look into this stuff but it is complicated. Please pray for the safety of the alleged victims. Some of the behavior is worrisome.

  93. dee wrote:

    Please keep Amy and me in your prayers. We are receiving reports about previous history of similar behavior. We are trying to look into this stuff but it is complicated. Please pray for the safety of the alleged victims. Some of the behavior is worrisome.

    Be careful, DEE. We will pray, yes.

  94. ishy wrote:

    I fear complementarianism is just a red herring…

    It all smells rather fishy to me (Sorry, I could not resist.)

  95. Daisy wrote:

    I’m only asking because I’m curious (and slightly confused), but does anyone know what his likely motive is for stalking her?
    Did she report him to the church and/or police for inappropriate / unwanted touching previously, so he’s trying to scare her now (revenge)?
    Or. does he still have a thing for her, is infatuated. and doesn’t know how to take “no” for an answer?

    My guess: he thinks he’s untouchable and is working on proving it.

  96. Burwell wrote:

    I wonder if Boles’ new employer is aware of this incident report.

    I think they will now be aware. Jade is really well known in town.

  97. Harley wrote:

    Jade needs to let her work know about Dustin, if she hasn’t already. She needs to make sure that all supervisors know him by his picture. She needs to let the security know about this sick man. To insure her safety, I would even have security walk her to her car, if at all possible. We don’t want her to become a statistic. Another person killed by some crazy stalker. I also think that Boles has a mighty dirty past hidden. This type of stuff just doesn’t start happening. It is something that is on going, and may start out simple, progresses. Didn’t he say he had struggled with this all his life? Read between the lines.

    Adding on to what Harley has written, I think it would be wise for all of these women to get a copy of Gavin de Becker’s book The Gift of Fear and read it pronto. Implement what he says.

    Also, stalking victims can find resources through domestic violence shelters, even if it’s not a familial stalking. There are support groups, etc.

    Carry pepper spray, mace. Install cameras. Deadbolts. Keep doors and windows locked. Cars locked. Door between garage and home locked. Make sure sliding glass doors can be lifted on tracks and up the safety of those doors (look at youtube for directions).

  98. Mara wrote:

    Complementarianism not stop domestic abuse, as we have observed in a previous post here.
    It also appears that it Complementarianism can’t protect a Christian woman from being stalked by a former pastor(presumed a Christian man?).
    Looks like it’s going to take the long arm of the law to protect that woman.
    I guess the arm of complementarianism is too short and ineffectual.

    Someone like ol’ Mary Kassian would even deny this story is true, that it happens at all, or she would blurt out, “Not all complementarians!!”

    Behind the Trinity Tussle by Kate Shellnutt
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2016/september/behind-trinity-tussle.html

    From that page:

    ….“I get really tired of people who argue that complementarianism leads to abuse or subservience of women. It mischaracterizes the complementarian position,” said Mary Kassian, women’s studies professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary…

    Instead of showing concern for abused women and how complementarianism may be playing a role in keeping women in abusive situations, complementarians choose to stick their fingers in their ears and act as though they can’t hear the cries of women concerning these issues.

  99. @ Christiane:

    This sometimes works the other way. Military personnel have been hounded by other military for being Christian, for displaying Bible verses on mementos on their desks at work, and that sort of thing.

  100. Daisy wrote:

    This sometimes works the other way. Military personnel have been hounded by other military for being Christian, for displaying Bible verses on mementos on their desks at work, and that sort of thing.

    Can you provide some other examples of ‘that sort of thing’?

  101. Now that Freaky Breezy letter he wrote makes sense. Hey, look, I’m good, you’re good, we’re all good. Nothing to see here, look at me being all cheery. See? Look no further in my direction. Nothing’s amiss here.

    Except for this one big huge freaky thing wrong with his behavior.

    (Someone tell his soon-to-be landlord about this as I doubt they would want the liability if renting to this character, especially since the house is in such close proximity to his stalking victim.))

  102. Dee, Thanks to you and Amy for getting involved. So many people prefer to put their head in the sand in uncomfortable situations. I know many will “victim blame” not because those on the sidelines are bad, but they are scared.
    Some people want to believe a victim did something to encourage abusive and stalking behavior. Why? Because people don’t want to think bad things can happen to them and they naively believe blaming the victim somehow keeps them safe. (i.e., he stalked her because she wore a short skirt, smiled at him, wore too much make-up, has a bad reputation, is a divorcee etc.). Got the picture?
    So we all need to keep Jade in our thoughts and prayers. I hope we can give her the strength to stand up to anyone who gossips about or shames her and the ability to ask for help from those she trusts. Keep us posted and to Jade: do not listen to anyone who tries to shame you, they are idiots!

  103. okrapod wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    Don’t confuse Mikey Weinstein with some prophet of the Most High.

    Trust me. I have Jewish friends. I KNOW the stories of how they have been proselytized by extremist fundamentalist evangelicals who had no hesitancy to disrespect the Jewish faith OR to tell my friends they were hell-bound. I know a lot of mainstream Christian people who respect the Jewish faith and the Jewish tradition. I am certain there are evangelical people who also have respect for the Jewish faith. Sadly, I also know that there are the others who do not have respect and who have no problem showing their contempt. I believe my friends. They are honorable people.

  104. Friend wrote:

    As I recall, there was a long history of “grade inflation” on reports and tests that always had to have perfect scores: nobody was allowed to report an error, so nobody learned.

    A good lesson that churches could learn from.

  105. Christiane wrote:

    I have Jewish friends. I KNOW the stories of how they have been proselytized by extremist fundamentalist evangelicals who had no hesitancy to disrespect the Jewish faith OR to tell my friends they were hell-bound. I know a lot of mainstream Christian people who respect the Jewish faith and the Jewish tradition.

    I’m not sure I am following you.

    Are you arguing or assuming that if a Christian shares the Gospel message with a Jewish person who does not believe in Jesus as Messiah that this is some form of hostility or anti-Semitism?

  106. Daisy wrote:

    Someone like ol’ Mary Kassian would even deny this story is true, that it happens at all, or she would blurt out, “Not all complementarians!!”

    “No True Scotsman!”

  107. Daisy wrote:

    If you pick up the phone on the 40th ring (if you have Caller ID) knowing it’s the weirdo, he said the lesson the weirdo just learned is that you will eventually pick up, even if it takes 40 rings. So never ever answer.

    Is there a way to spoof Caller ID?

  108. Daisy wrote:

    police departments being concerned about attracting the wrong kind of applicants, so some of them do have testing in place to weed out the violent or NPD types.

    A good friend of mine, retired cop, mentioned this to me 30 years ago. Churches are way behind the curve.

  109. Daisy wrote:

    I do remember his advice on if you have a persistent stalker who is calling you constantly: switch phone numbers, let the weirdo keep dialing the old one, but never EVER pick up and answer if it’s the weirdo.

    I leant that book to someone so I no longer have it, but I have a counter example of someone who had blocked his stalkers emails and so he didn’t know she was getting increasingly agitated about not get ahold of him and had come back to town and she ended up shooting him (he thankfully was ok).

    I do remember the general advice not to encourage the stalker but I’m also thinking now it’s good to keep track of them.

  110. Bill M wrote:

    Whether the atrocities were from a religious or secular authoritarian state, there are always those in the next generation that thinks they can do better with unlimited power.

    “This time We WILL Achieve True Communism!”

    There are those who just want power but beware the ones that want to “help” you.

    “In the Name of The People!”

  111. Christiane wrote:

    some time ago, AF high command heads rolled after an Air Force bomber flew from the northern part of the US down to Texas with its nuclear weapons armed:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_Air_Force_nuclear_weapons_incident

    I remember the Coast to Coast Conspiracy Theories about it. (Talk about Late Night AM Radio weirdness…) The Conspiracy varied (Illuminati…), but these nukes had been spirited away for detonation in American cities in a False Flag operation to justify a coup (Illuminati…). No two callers had the same Conspiracy behind it (Illuminati…) and fell into infighting with the others (who were obviously disinformation by The Conspiracy — Illuminati…).

  112. Muff Potter wrote:

    Power? I’d say idiocy is more like it.
    The same goes for an ixtian coup hatched by those testosterone over-dosed maniacs.

    The Anointed Reverends(TM) probably figured after the military seized power in the Coup they would (being Born Again Bible-Believers) turn all the power over to the Anointed Reverends(TM). God Wills It!

    I’ve encountered political crazies, and under the surface they’re all the same.

  113. Christiane wrote:

    Friend wrote:

    2) There was nothing religious about the 2007 incident of losing track of nukes and flying them across the country.

    When this happened, my husband who is retired from the military was talking to my brother-in-law who is a retired naval captain. They both said NO ONE ‘loses track of nukes’, so they were NOT impressed with ‘the story’ told to the press, no.

    So what did Hubby and BiL think actually happened?
    (Obviously somebody must have screwed up…)

  114. @ Christiane:

    I gather from your comment that in some conversations with your Jewish friends the issue of religion came up. Did you get a chance to tell them about Jesus while being respectful of their religious beliefs, or did they not ask you what you personally thought?

  115. dee wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    I think so as well. Please pray for this victim.

    No kidding. I cannot believe how slimy this is. I’ll tell you, if that woman were my wife or sister I couldn’t say what I’d do to that boy. He needs serious help, and quite possibly a punch in the nose.

  116. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Friend wrote:

    2) There was nothing religious about the 2007 incident of losing track of nukes and flying them across the country.

    When this happened, my husband who is retired from the military was talking to my brother-in-law who is a retired naval captain. They both said NO ONE ‘loses track of nukes’, so they were NOT impressed with ‘the story’ told to the press, no.

    So what did Hubby and BiL think actually happened?
    (Obviously somebody must have screwed up…)

    The conversation was held at the initial reporting of the incident some time ago, HEADLESS.

    Since that time, I have learned that the more there is to a story (we may not learn all of the worst details), the higher up the ladder the heads will roll. That’s what happened in this case. The military won’t share every detail. That is not going to happen, no. But if you want to find out how serious something was that went down, see who gets asked to submit their resignation and who promptly accepts that ‘request’. The higher up the chain of command, the more chances are that the incident was a real doozy. 🙂

  117. @ Christiane:
    @ okrapod:
    I’m Roman Catholic, so I will take the concerns of both Daisy and Okrapod in the light of the knowledge that they do not share my Catholic perspective. My best friend is a Jewish convert who left her Quaker faith after her little boy died. She told me that the rabbi who advised her told her to read and study a number of books on Christianity and then discuss them with him (she says he knew more about the Christian faith than she did). He wanted to make sure she was not converting out of grief for the wrong reasons, and both she and I understood that compassion on his part. The process of her conversion took years. At NO TIME did he try to convert her. It was her decision to proceed and he waited until she was ready in his opinion, and so he did not take advantage of her initial profound grief.

    Because I’m Catholic, we respect the people of the Jewish faith and hold them as special brothers and sisters in our regard for them. There is no ‘proselytizing’ out of respect for them, no. This may explain our point of view which I know you do not share:

    “The Church and non-Christians (from the Vatican Catechism)

    839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”325
    The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 “the first to hear the Word of God.”327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”329
    840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. ” I hope this helps some.

  118. Christiane wrote:

    The higher up the chain of command, the more chances are that the incident was a real doozy.

    And a possible Broken Arrow is as much of a real doozy as you can get.

  119. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Equal value only to God, not man, not church. Bad teaching, Bad fruit.

    I like that saying! Did you make it up? Oh, wait, Jesus…not that comps ever paid attention to him.

    They know better.

    “A fanatic is someone who does what God would — if God only KNEW what was REALLY going on.”

  120. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    No two callers had the same Conspiracy behind it (Illuminati…) and fell into infighting with the others (who were obviously disinformation by The Conspiracy — Illuminati…).

    I heard it was either the Bilderberg Group or the Build A Bear Workshop.

  121. Daisy wrote:

    From that page:

    ….“I get really tired of people who argue that complementarianism leads to abuse or subservience of women. It mischaracterizes the complementarian position,” said Mary Kassian, women’s studies professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary…

    Pardon me for shouting but Mary Kassian is NOT a women’s studies professor at SBTS. She may be a “Distinguished Professor” but as has been documented here on TWW she doesn’t have the educational background to teach women’s studies. She’s not even listed on the calendar for the “Seminary Wives Institute” this fall, which is the replacement for the WMI.

    I can’t seen the entire CT article, so I can’t see what it says about Kassian, but she’s not *qualified* to speak on the subject of women’s studies. She’s CERTAINLY not qualified to opine theologically on the Trinity.

    Oh, and for the record, when I explain to my generally-educated but secular friends about complementarianism and then tell them about Eternal Subordination of the Son, they *universally*, without me prompting them, say, “uhm, I thought the whole point of the Trinity was that the persons were equal.” And yeah, they get it, why is it so difficult for the comps and the ESSers to get it?

  122. Daisy wrote:

    You can google for them. Here is one.

    Marine court-martialed for refusing to remove Bible verse
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/05/26/marine-court-martialed-for-refusing-to-remove-bible-verse.html

    I’m sorry, but you need to look at multiple sources to suss out the truth. This article says Monifa Sterling was court-martialed for other things.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/the-case-of-monifa-sterli_b_9028368.html

    For the record, apparently Sterling is still appealing.

  123. mirele wrote:

    Oh, and for the record, when I explain to my generally-educated but secular friends about complementarianism and then tell them about Eternal Subordination of the Son, they *universally*, without me prompting them, say, “uhm, I thought the whole point of the Trinity was that the persons were equal.” And yeah, they get it, why is it so difficult for the comps and the ESSers to get it?

    That is an interesting insight. The whole of Western Tradition is influenced by Christianity from early days forward …. your generally-educated friends would be familiar with the classic orthodox concept of the Holy Trinity, so when they come up against the ESS heresy, they immediately, go ““uhm, I thought the whole point of the Trinity was that the persons were equal.”

    The pride and hubris of the ESS folks must have given them the idea that the Church would not complain about the heresy, but they failed to understand that the orthodox teachings on the Holy Trinity are much more widely known than they realized. They have lived as big fish in a tiny bubble. The outside world sees them for what they are.

  124. Christiane wrote:

    Then the church has not got the ‘turn the other cheek’ concept understood properly in its historical meaning. In Roman times, a Roman soldier could strike someone with their palm, but it was thought beneath a Roman to strike someone with the back of their hand. So if the victim ‘turned the other cheek’, it would have meant that the soldier would have to disgrace himself to hit the victim again with the back of his hand.
    No, ‘turning the other cheek’ was a strategy to get the assailant to think about his role in the abuse, and how, if it continued, then HE would be as disgraced by his actions publicly as the victim.
    So if neo-Cals are relying on victims ‘cooperating’ with abuse by ‘turning the other cheek’, they got their gospel wrong this time, yes.
    It WAS Our Lord’s way to get people to stop and think, as in the case of the stoning of the adulteress. He knew the men with stones in their hands were ‘legally’ permitted to execute her, but He said something and He wrote something that made them pause, consider their own ‘place’ in the BIGGER picture, and they were humbled, ashamed, and walked away. Non violent intervention? You bet.

    Churches need to spend a lot more time teaching things like this instead of insisting that we just read the words as they are on the page or lift out isolated verses. The cultural context makes a difference. Thanks for posting this!

    The victim’s report is horrible! I know it’s been said before, but Boles really has some mental issues. I hope his wife can get away.

  125. mirele wrote:

    Pardon me for shouting but Mary Kassian is NOT a women’s studies professor at SBTS. She may be a “Distinguished Professor” but as has been documented here on TWW she doesn’t have the educational background to teach women’s studies. She’s not even listed on the calendar for the “Seminary Wives Institute” this fall, which is the replacement for the WMI.

    Good heavens. I just sat in a meeting today where a woman was promoted to full professor. Now she had some impressive credentials! But this is at a real university…

  126. Former CLCer wrote:

    explain to me the meaning of the reference to Mark Driscoll

    In regard to my comment about the young Calvinist’s search for Christmas pretzels, I asked him if he was looking for the ones that looked like Mark Driscoll (of course, there aren’t any of those). It was a comment intended to slam his inordinate “worship” of Driscoll, an idol of his that he talked more about from his pulpit than Jesus. Perhaps, you see where I was headed on that comment now. I’ve been known to think before I speak – I was doing that then as well, rather than just opening my mouth and letting things fly out. I meant to make him uncomfortable and cause him to think a bit.

  127. mirele wrote:

    Oh, and for the record, when I explain to my generally-educated but secular friends about complementarianism and then tell them about Eternal Subordination of the Son, they *universally*, without me prompting them, say, “uhm, I thought the whole point of the Trinity was that the persons were equal.” And yeah, they get it, why is it so difficult for the comps and the ESSers to get it?

    This is my pessimism talking but I think it is just that it doesn’t serve their purposes if the persons of the Trinity are equal.

  128. Lea wrote:

    I do remember the general advice not to encourage the stalker but I’m also thinking now it’s good to keep track of them.

    I was looking up information on stalkers and it gets complex. Very concerning.

    I trust she is getting excellent advice on how to deal with this guy.

  129. @ Burwell:
    I’ll be certain to let people know all about his activities. My guess is he won’t be invited to speak at the next Acts 29 conference unless Matt Chandler decided to declare that he is “walking in repentance.”

  130. Ann wrote:

    So we all need to keep Jade in our thoughts and prayers. I hope we can give her the strength to stand up to anyone who gossips about or shames her and the ability to ask for help from those she trusts. Keep us posted and to Jade: do not listen to anyone who tries to shame you, they are idiots!

    Thank you. I know your words will mean much to Jade and the other victim we discussed on Monday.

  131. I hate to be a whiner, but maybe the Deebs could put up an acronym decoder just for us acronym challenged denizens here at TWW?

  132. @ mirele:

    “when I explain to my generally-educated but secular friends about complementarianism and then tell them about Eternal Subordination of the Son, they *universally*, without me prompting them, say, “uhm, I thought the whole point of the Trinity was that the persons were equal.” And yeah, they get it, why is it so difficult for the comps and the ESSers to get it?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    they’ve invested too much of their careers, their reputations, & egos on it to acknowledge it. the jig’s up, all they can do now is pretend, and keep pretending more and more.

    (no news to you, i’m sure — i just enjoy making the point.)

  133. @ Max:

    I laughed because I thought you were comparing Driscoll's physique to Santa Claus. Driscoll, who could kick Jesus' "rear end" (mod. ed. – Stan wanted to use another word that begins with the letter "A".)

  134. elastigirl wrote:

    they’ve invested too much of their careers, their reputations, & egos on it to acknowledge it. the jig’s up, all they can do now is pretend, and keep pretending more and more.

    Denny Burk and some others are trying to nuance the Permanent ESV translation of Genesis 3:16, too. That is a must-have clobber verse for the Female Subordinationists, so we’ll see if they can get that to fly in the wake of the ESS meltdown. The timing is interesting because the ESS issue blew up in the summer at the same time as the Permanent ESV was introduced. Why didn’t they make a big announcement then about the translation changes? I suspect the new Permanent ESV was already printed and being shipped, and making the announcement in the middle of the ESS storm would have made things much worse for them.

  135. Patriciamc wrote:

    brian wrote:
    Here is Todd F putting his theological foot in his theological mouth for the one billionth time.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiWjtrQjYTg
    Would he say this to the rape victim, the crime victim, the victim of child abuse, etc.?

    Almost a direct quote when I asked about people mainly people of the Jewish faith concerning them being on the Concentration camps. “…It was God’s wrath of the Jewish nation for killing the Lord Jesus and His blood being on their hands and those of their children Matthew 27*25 and how God blinded their (Jewish people) eyes Romans and John several verses”

    I would ask what about the other people in the camps

    Other people??

    Well people who are gay, atheists, communists, Catholics, gypsies, Jehovah Witnesses…

    They are sinners and have it coming basically in those words but it was much more Christianese

    Then I would mention “Corrie ten Boom”

    Well she was being persecuted for her faith and the Glory of God.

    Then I would bring up Tiergartenstraße 4 (T4), which set the legal precedent for the Nazi genocide. I was asked what that was, I gave a brief explanation.

    Brian all people are sinners and are born in Adam and deserve whatever God deems correct in this life and Hitler was not an anomaly he was what we are all capable of being in our unconverted state, actually what we are all capable of being in our converted state because we are so evil and so totally depraved, enemies with God. That was about I could take in this of this conversation. As memory serves me and some notes in bible study papers I have seen around my house this is about as clear as I remember the conversations bare bones.

    This is just insane in my opinion.

    T4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4 Note this entire site is full of trigger warnings and the videos one can come up with when researching can also be very upsetting.

    My father was a liberator of several of these camps when he was in WW 2 meaning he served with the Army that was first at several of these camps as I can piece together. He never spoke much about it. He was 22 at the time. My mother who knew him before and after said he was different. My mother always felt this is why I am “obsessed” with the type of work I do. I hope that gives you some insight into where some of my pov’s come from. Other then on Michaels board I have not shared this with any group.

  136. Gram3 wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    they’ve invested too much of their careers, their reputations, & egos on it to acknowledge it. the jig’s up, all they can do now is pretend, and keep pretending more and more.
    Denny Burk and some others are trying to nuance the Permanent ESV translation of Genesis 3:16, too. That is a must-have clobber verse for the Female Subordinationists, so we’ll see if they can get that to fly in the wake of the ESS meltdown. The timing is interesting because the ESS issue blew up in the summer at the same time as the Permanent ESV was introduced. Why didn’t they make a big announcement then about the translation changes? I suspect the new Permanent ESV was already printed and being shipped, and making the announcement in the middle of the ESS storm would have made things much worse for them.

    Prof. Burk knows this is a big deal as does the other superheroes of the “Neo”vision of the matrix. So much for Sola Scriptura, Inerrancy, sufficiently …

  137. brian wrote:

    So much for Sola Scriptura, Inerrancy, sufficiently …

    Well …… Now that they have the permanent ESV, the Bible really is (cough, cough) inerrant and sufficient, and they can use Sola Scriptura to promote their agenda!

  138. Nancy2 wrote:

    brian wrote:

    So much for Sola Scriptura, Inerrancy, sufficiently …

    Well …… Now that they have the permanent ESV, the Bible really is (cough, cough) inerrant and sufficient, and they can use Sola Scriptura to promote their agenda!

    Exactly WHO is promoting this book as a ‘Bible’?

  139. Nancy2 wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Exactly WHO is promoting this book as a ‘Bible’?

    The usual suspects!

    The same ones who created the ESS doctrine?

  140. Christiane wrote:

    Because I’m Catholic, we respect the people of the Jewish faith and hold them as special brothers and sisters in our regard for them. There is no ‘proselytizing’ out of respect for them, no.

    This.

    100% agreement. I wearied of evangelicals at my ex-church constantly hounding people about God. Meanwhile the hounders lived some of the most hateful, hypocritical lives of anyone I have ever met. Their actions and lives contradicted everything they said.

    It was a sweet little old Catholic lady, Catherine, who died at 102 years old who brought me to God. She actually lived out the faith.

    Then you have the hounders like at my ex-church, a John MacArthur Master’s Seminary disciple. They are anti-Catholic. Rabidly so. An evangelical Christian in Southern California whose daughter goes to JMac’s Grace Community Church wrote that her daughter had shunned her…because get this…she was volunteering with Catholics at charity.

    Evangs also hound Eastern Orthodox Christians, of which part of my family are EOs.
    I got tired of the put downs of their faith to, which was lovely.

  141. Ann wrote:

    I wonder where his wife’s head is at? Maybe they are stuck in a mutual fantasy. Bottom line: we don’t know what is going on in their heads, therefore this situation needs to be handled now.

    Bridget wrote:

    It seems to me Dustin is stalking and/or bullying this victim. Why is Dustin’s wife putting up with this?

    Patriciamc wrote:

    I hope his wife can get away.

    I agree with Patriciamc. I had previously read Dustin’s wife’s ardent defense of him (I’m thinking on a link to her Facebook page) and I think victim 1 mentioned she was part of it, but the light bulb clicked for me tonight. She’s married to a sociopath. She’s got to be in a survival mode for her and her children and/or still in what some call the “fog” of abuse, trying to sort things out, coming to terms with Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. We need to be praying for both the safety of Jade and her family, and for protection for Natalie and their children.

  142. I remember when some of the stalwart brothers in my old bible study got tangled up with an EO / Coptic who spoke all the old languages as well as he understood English. It was truly a sight to behold. I tried telling them not to get into it with him but well. He literally had them running around getting their apologetic books, Strong concordance, and one younger brother brought a few Dave Hunt books. The EO / Catholic man just ripped the shreds out of them with this huge smile on his face. Then they got into fulfilled prophecy and eschatology. My old Bible group was Plymouth Brethren types, very nice people, but really well shall we say focussed on the Mothership. It was actually sad towards the end because some of these brothers’ faiths were truly twisted up and they were literally terrified they weren’t saved because of how they started doubting the party line. I know that stark terror only too well, constantly thinking you are a “tare” that will be left behind when the rapture happens. I mean these young guys in their late teens were going up against a seminary trained life long pre-Vatican two Catholic (that was his Achilles’ heel) as he held to successionism dying with Pope Pius XII and valid orders. That is a rabbit hole that is quite interesting. Towards the end of the evening, I truly felt for those young brothers and it was one of those ah-ha moments to me. The letter Killith but the Spirit gives life.

  143. Christiane wrote:

    @ Dave (Eagle):
    Hi EAGLE,
    please understand that the USAF Academy in Colorado has a ‘history’ that is not something they want publicized. There WAS a ‘connection’ among the higher ups politically and in the AF to attempts to ‘convert’ cadets to a kind of fundamentalism using methods that were at best questionable and at worse, abusive. These people even targeted Jewish cadets and attempted to harass them into ‘conversion’ with some really heavy coercion. The ethics of this morally were sick: the cadets depended on ‘leadership’ to be responsible honorable people, not religious abusers.

    No, the USAF Academy at Colorado had a dark chapter and I understand has since recovered and made correction and set in place some guidelines to prevent spiritual abuse of cadets.

    Our military are human, EAGLE, but on the whole they are an honorable lot. I was horrified to read what you were put through. But then I remembered the spiritual abuse of those cadets.

    In reply:
    This topic was a rabbit trail away from the serious subject at the beginning of this post.

    I live in Colorado Springs and travel in numerous circles. I can easily count 10 retired Cols who are friends of mine (many who graduated from the Academy). My husband served over 10 years in the AF and came back from Viet Nam with health problems and died at the age of 43. My son in law was a Captain in the AF. We have friends who have taught at the Academy.
    There were some problems with some cadets at the Academy who have been court martialed. Hardly represents the institution as a whole.
    As for the religious angle (which was separate from the sexual), there was a jewish cadet at the Academy whose father was livid that his son might hear the name of Jesus and he sued and had the money to make a national big deal of it. Now everyone has to tip toe and have lost their freedom of speech and the Academy has some kind of pagan wiccan altar on the property and the current administration has been purging Christians out of the forces.(happy now).
    The military has had more of a history of drinking too much than getting religion that is until the bullets go over head and their cleaning the body parts up from a IED.
    Focus on the Family is pretty quiet around town except when the crazy Baptists come and picket it. James Dobson has retired. He never made any money off it and as a secular psychologist was concerned about what was happening to the destruction of families and our society (as a former teacher and social worker I shared his concerns and agreed with these alarms).
    To the subject at hand I find this criminal stalking behavior of Boles alarming and am glad the Deb and Dee are shining a spotlight on it and following up on it and I know they will continiue to do. Not only should he not be in ministry but he probably should be locked up.

  144. Christiane wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    Christiane wrote:
    Exactly WHO is promoting this book as a ‘Bible’?
    The usual suspects!
    The same ones who created the ESS doctrine?

    I guess I’m confused. I don’t know anything about a “new” ESV. Now my brain is calling it the “ESS Bible” but I don’t know if I misunderstood something.

    Looking forward to finding out more, but this topic seems more urgent, somehow.

    Stay safe, Deebs. Praying for wisdom, strength, and safety. (And the peace that passeth understanding to guard your hearts and minds, even in the midst of this really horrible stuff.)

  145. @ brian:
    Brian,
    I have always been fascinated with WWII and survivor stories, especially after I visited Dachau. Just reading accounts and details of some of the exhibits in the Holocaust Museum (not actually having a chance to visit the museum) has haunted my memory for years.

    A terrible chapter in history. I can see how liberating the death camps would have changed your father. I really respect you for what you do, and your chosen vocation. Blessings to you.

  146. @ Christiane:
    There were been problems with Catholics doing the same proselytizing in rural public schools 80 or so years ago in these parts. Seems they did not respect that some people were not raising their children as non Catholic.

  147. Christiane wrote:

    Because I’m Catholic, we respect the people of the Jewish faith and hold them as special brothers and sisters in our regard for them. There is no ‘proselytizing’ out of respect for them, no. This may explain our point of view which I know you do not share:

    Too bad the official Catholic Church did not respect Jews 70 years ago when the REALLY needed it.

  148. brian wrote:

    The EO / Catholic man just ripped the shreds out of them with this huge smile on his face

    Was he Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Coptic? They are not the same. EO and RC have some similarities, but they departed ways theologically in the 11th century. If he is EO he certainly would not have been arguing for a Pope.

  149. I am a Jewish believer in Jesus the Messiah.

    I was led to the Lord by the testimony and prayers of Catholics in the 70’s.

  150. Ken F wrote:

    Was he Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Coptic? They are not the same. EO and RC have some similarities, but they departed ways theologically in the 11th century. If he is EO he certainly would not have been arguing for a Pope.

    Well, the EO and Catholic celebration of the Eucharist can be shared between them, and I was told by the nuns in my Catholic high school ‘if you get hit by a bus down in front of the Eastern Orthodox Church, the priest can come out and give you the last rites’ …. we always remembered that.

    As for the beautiful witness of the Coptic (Egyptian) Christians, when ISIS martyred twenty-one of them, their last act was to commit their souls trustingly to Our Lord in prayer. When they were martyred, I wrote this about them over on Denny Burk’s post, where some had questioned their belief in Christ:

    “The Coptic martyrs come from a faith that professes Christ with these words prior to the reading of the Holy Gospel in their liturgical worship in community:

    “. . . You are the life of us all, the Salvation of us all, the Hope of us all, the Healing of us all, and the Resurrection of us all.”

    At the moment of their death when they called on Jesus for help, it was not their first acknowledgement of Christ as Lord.”

    You bet I defended their Christian belief on that blog, and I did it to honor these men who openly trusted Christ while facing their death. If ‘martyr’ means ‘witness’, the Coptics belong to the Church’s growing list of witnesses in this sad world.

    I think their martyrdom at the hands of ISIS were a REAL Christian persecution. And I am offended by the use of the word ‘persecuted’ when some claim it without substance.

  151. bc wrote:

    There were some problems with some cadets at the Academy who have been court martialed. Hardly represents the institution as a whole.

    I can agree with this. The USAF Academy at Colorado had been investigated thoroughly and abuses were addressed. Guidelines were set in place to STOP abuses involving coercive proselytization which was neither professional military behavior OR frankly, Christian. It was just bullying from a group that was out of control. And yes, hopefully they were disciplined out of the military because of the dishonor they brought upon the Air Force and upon Our Lord.

    There are still problems there, notably with sex abuse cases. But the USAF has attempted to correct problems honorably. The incident over the ‘nukes’ that supposedly someone ‘lost track of’ is entirely another matter. All the people involved were disciplined and there were many ‘resignations’ that were asked for and accepted. Dark history, yes. But history. The military in our country was and is honorable enough to face the bullies at the Academy and deal with them; and our military was capable of investigating and coming to decisions about the nuclear weapons incident in the Air Force and making sure that the people at all levels who were involved were removed from duty as unable to handle the great responsibility of nukes.

    My son who is in the military believes that staying on mission honorably means moving forward in a positive direction. To be honest, proselytizing cadets and ‘losing track of nukes’ are misrepresentations of military honor. The USAF took care of investigating and getting to the root of the problems. They are to be commended. I hope our military remains vigilant against those who would dishonor it.

  152. Ken F wrote:

    brian wrote:
    The EO / Catholic man just ripped the shreds out of them with this huge smile on his face
    Was he Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Coptic? They are not the same. EO and RC have some similarities, but they departed ways theologically in the 11th century. If he is EO he certainly would not have been arguing for a Pope.

    Believe it or not, at the time he was a High bread he was actually involved with all three searching out what he wanted to be. He thought there was no valid orders after Pius XII but attended a latin mass so “officially” at the time he was a Catholic, but he argued for all three at the time. He was quite young as well and still bouncing around if that makes sense. Eventually, he became a priest of one of the Eastern Rites. But at the time he was bouncing between all three in theology. Hope that makes sense.

  153. Complementarianism is all about power. Just like rape & child abuse. Yet more evidence about the type of men drawn to this worldview. His psychopathic compulsions will not stop. Even if the police can’t act right now, a police report starts the documentation trail needed for further action. I encourage any woman (or man or parent) to go straight to the police in these case. You will not be in trouble for filing a report in good faith. Creeps like this operate in the dark. The more light shining on you, the better protected you are.

  154. brian wrote:

    Believe it or not, at the time he was a High bread he was actually involved with all three searching out what he wanted to be. He thought there was no valid orders after Pius XII but attended a latin mass so “officially” at the time he was a Catholic, but he argued for all three at the time. He was quite young as well and still bouncing around if that makes sense. Eventually, he became a priest of one of the Eastern Rites. But at the time he was bouncing between all three in theology. Hope that makes sense.

    That’s pretty crazy. I’ve read enough EO theology to find it very attractive and persuasive. But the imperial Roman ceremonial customs make me want to run from it. It’s a visceral reaction.

  155. dee wrote:

    Which acronym?

    ESV and ESS are pretty much self explanatory by the context they’re surrounded with. But after that, the ‘E’ series can be confounding. But then again, some old goats (like Potter) could find a way to complain about the oat-meal.

  156. Lydia wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    Because I’m Catholic, we respect the people of the Jewish faith and hold them as special brothers and sisters in our regard for them. There is no ‘proselytizing’ out of respect for them, no. This may explain our point of view which I know you do not share:
    Too bad the official Catholic Church did not respect Jews 70 years ago when the REALLY needed it.

    I think most Christian denominations – including Protestants – were guilty of this 70-years ago.

  157. Christiane wrote:

    You bet I defended their Christian belief on that blog, and I did it to honor these men who openly trusted Christ while facing their death. If ‘martyr’ means ‘witness’, the Coptics belong to the Church’s growing list of witnesses in this sad world.
    I think their martyrdom at the hands of ISIS were a REAL Christian persecution. And I am offended by the use of the word ‘persecuted’ when some claim it without substance.

    Thank you for defending these Christians, Christiane.

  158. brian wrote:

    This is just insane in my opinion.

    Not only insane brian (which is my opinion too) but also a steaming pile of you know what, just plopped by a wagon team on a blustery day in the mid 30s.

  159. Muff Potter wrote:

    But after that, the ‘E’ series can be confounding.

    Yes, that theology gets thick. Here’s a link to a blog post that has been cataloging the links in the ESS controversy, and the links there will help with definitions/descriptions of terms.

    https://jennysstool.com/the-essefseras-debate/

    [QUOTE] Following, for your reference, are links to the current debate regarding the Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS), Eternal Functional Subordination (EFS), Eternal Relationship of Authority and Submission (ERAS)–ESS/EFS/ERAS vs. Eternal Generation of the Son (EG) and Eternal Procession (EP) debate, in chronological order. This is not an exhaustive list. This page will be updated regularly. Corrections and additions to this list are welcome.

  160. @ Velour:
    It was official with the Vatican. And why the “everybody did it defense”? Do we really learn from that? The SBC founding was heinous! Let’s speak truth. If one wants to constantly proselytize their “more spiritual denomination, better doctrine, better treatment of people groups” etc, etc, then be prepared to hear differing opinions and historical truth. You might not be seeing the agenda. I get that. Love bombing works on some people. Not me. I am mean. But I would have your back.

  161. Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    It was official with the Vatican. And why the “everybody did it defense”? Do we really learn from that? The SBC founding was heinous! Let’s speak truth. If one wants to constantly proselytize their “more spiritual denomination, better doctrine, better treatment of people groups” etc, etc, then be prepared to hear differing opinions and historical truth. You might not be seeing the agenda. I get that. Love bombing works on some people. Not me. I am mean. But I would have your back.

    Oh, I’m not against examining an institution’s failings. I just think we need to apply the same objective standards across the board to every group. And ours — failed too.
    My brother-in-law’s (he’s Jewish) family members were killed by the Nazis in concentration camps.

  162. Seems to me the victims hubby should show up to Dustins house and give him a little talking to. With his fists.

  163. Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    Because I’m Catholic, we respect the people of the Jewish faith and hold them as special brothers and sisters in our regard for them. There is no ‘proselytizing’ out of respect for them, no. This may explain our point of view which I know you do not share:
    Too bad the official Catholic Church did not respect Jews 70 years ago when the REALLY needed it.

    I think most Christian denominations – including Protestants – were guilty of this 70-years ago.

    I know of many in the Catholic/Dutch Reformed Churches who helped hide and care for Jewish people at that time. Lydia will promote what ‘was not done’ from her perspective, and that is not to be challenged. But that is not the whole story, and the quiet risking of life for the sake of Jewish people and Jewish children DID occur and is noted by the state of Israel publicly. That is a story that needs no ‘publicity’ from me. The proof of it are the survivors and their descendants who stand in witness to the kindness of many, many Christian people who reached out to them, risking themselves, and saved them from annihilation. No, that story doesn’t need to be ‘told’, it is being ‘lived’ and those descendants are the proof of Christian courage in those days, Catholic and Protestant both.

    Lydia can publicize and correctly state the sins of omission of the Church in all its denominations, but she knows that it is not the whole story.
    My own daughter was privileged to attend a small Catholic prep school and was taught by a Jewish woman who was saved as a child from the Holocaust by Catholics who took her in as a small child, changed her name, and adopted her. Her own family did not survive the Holocaust. The teacher’s name was Maria Breitinger.

  164. Lydia wrote:

    I am mean. But I would have your back.

    Lydia, I’m not seeing you as ‘mean’. I see you as a fierce warrior for the protection of innocents. In that, I cannot fault your fierceness which is needed much in the Body of Christ. I think you underestimate yourself and your value to the whole Church when you describe yourself as being ‘mean’, as it implies something ‘petty’ and small. I think others here would agree.

  165. abigail wrote:

    Seems to me the victims hubby should show up to Dustins house and give him a little talking to. With his fists.

    My husband was the youngest of seven sons from a steel town in Pennsylvania. What he would do to that guy is unprintable. I think victims might know that their husbands would ‘react’ with violence,
    and that is probably something that quelled their response to Boles,
    and that is probably something that Boles was counting on.

    So much evil. My prayers are for the women victims, and certainly for the safety of the one being stalked. God have mercy! Boles is a very sick man and may be dangerous.

  166. Christiane wrote:

    I think others here would agree.

    Not exactly. You are seem to be trying to make Lydia look like some kind of pitiful weakling who is apologizing for herself. I do not see that in this case.

    When I google the definition of ‘mean’ as an adjective I get the synonyms as ‘unkind. cruel’. To minimize that as something ‘petty and small’ is to do an injustice to the word itself. The issue is, IMO, whether one is justified in saying something which may be ‘unkind’ or ‘cruel’ in the pursuit of truth. I believe that one is justified in doing that if the situation demands it. Somebody has said that we do not believe in salvation by nice alone. I do not see that Jesus practiced avoidance of the truth in pursuit of being ‘nice’ all the time. And certainly Paul did not pursue ‘nice’ at all costs.

    IMO the question we must always ask is whether something is true and whether something is necessary, not whether it is nice or not. And specific to this topic of anti-semitism, the history of christianity is despicable.

  167. @ okrapod:
    I’m going to stand by what I am seeing.
    There are different ways to see someone who feels that they have to put it out there that they are ‘mean’.

    I see her fierceness over the harm done to innocent women and children, and I think that is a good thing for the Church.

    If you want me to look at her who is trying to put herself out there as someone who judges and criticizes destructively, well we ALL do that from time to time. If you want me to see her as someone trying to intimidate and ‘act tough’? I know the street lingo. I taught math in a drug rehab in Paterson NJ for teen aged boys and girls, boys in the mornings and girls in the afternoons. Lydia doesn’t make the cut as a ‘mean’ girl in my experience, no. She needs another ‘word’. ‘Mean’ just sounds juvenile and silly, coming from her. It just doesn’t work FOR her. It doesn’t fit who she IS.

  168. okrapod wrote:

    Somebody has said that we do not believe in salvation by nice alone.

    Again, and not to dive into another rabbit hole, but just what is meant by ‘salvation’?
    A topic (it has dissenting views from the traditional) best pursued on the OD thread I’m thinkin’.

  169. @ Muff Potter:

    It is just a saying. Father S informed us that he did not believe in salvation by propriety alone, regardless of how it make have looked at the time. It is a play on the idea of salvation by faith alone. Some people seem to come close to the idea of salvation by covered dish alone, for example. It has a whole lot of possibilities.

  170. okrapod wrote:

    And specific to this topic of anti-semitism, the history of christianity is despicable.

    True. On all sides.

    To explain; What I meant by “mean” is not going along with what is expected in group think or Political correctness. That is often positioned as being mean. I just don’t play well anymore in those sort of circles. I was also taught to be suspicious of constant flattery and platitudes. Some call it love bombing.

  171. I have a really good question.

    What NOW is the new neo-Cal definition of ‘inerrancy’.

  172. Lydia wrote:

    What I meant by “mean” is not going along with what is expected in group think or Political correctness. That is often positioned as being mean. I just don’t play well anymore in those sort of circles. I was also taught to be suspicious of constant flattery and platitudes. Some call it love bombing.

    Whatever it is called I think you do it well, and I try to do it also. And I note that there are others who comment here who apparently feel the same way. You go, girl.

  173. Lydia wrote:

    To explain; What I meant by “mean” is not going along with what is expected in group think or Political correctness. That is often positioned as being mean. I just don’t play well anymore in those sort of circles. I was also taught to be suspicious of constant flattery and platitudes. Some call it love bombing.

    I get it!

  174. Christiane wrote:

    I have a really good question.

    What NOW is the new neo-Cal definition of ‘inerrancy’.

    Same definition as “Hooliganism” in the Russian Penal Code:
    Anything those in POWER say it is.

  175. Christiane wrote:

    So much evil. My prayers are for the women victims, and certainly for the safety of the one being stalked. God have mercy! Boles is a very sick man and may be dangerous.

    Especially if an addiction/tolerance response has set in and he needs bigger doses to maintain the same high.

    Stalkers often escalate.

  176. Christiane wrote:

    “At the moment of their death when they called on Jesus for help, it was not their first acknowledgement of Christ as Lord.”

    It was for ONE of them who had never practiced or made any profession of faith until confronted with Al’lah’s beheading knife.

    In my church, this is called “Martyrdom with Baptism of Desire”, and applies to several recognized Saints.

    You bet I defended their Christian belief on that blog, and I did it to honor these men who openly trusted Christ while facing their death. If ‘martyr’ means ‘witness’, the Coptics belong to the Church’s growing list of witnesses in this sad world.

    I think their martyrdom at the hands of ISIS were a REAL Christian persecution. And I am offended by the use of the word ‘persecuted’ when some claim it without substance.

    Both Coptic and Orthodox churches now venerate them as “The 21 Coptic Martyrs”.
    I have even seen designs for an Icon online.

    Remember them when the screams of “PERSECUTION!” begin during the War on Christmas 2016 mobilization, six-seven weeks from today.

  177. Jack wrote:

    Complementarianism is all about power. Just like rape & child abuse. Yet more evidence about the type of men drawn to this worldview. His psychopathic compulsions will not stop. Even if the police can’t act right now, a police report starts the documentation trail needed for further action

    Even if he hasn’t DONE anything yet doesn’t mean the cops can’t keep an eye on him.

  178. Christiane wrote:

    bc wrote:

    There were some problems with some cadets at the Academy who have been court martialed. Hardly represents the institution as a whole.

    I can agree with this. The USAF Academy at Colorado had been investigated thoroughly and abuses were addressed. Guidelines were set in place to STOP abuses involving coercive proselytization which was neither professional military behavior OR frankly, Christian. It was just bullying from a group that was out of control. And yes, hopefully they were disciplined out of the military because of the dishonor they brought upon the Air Force and upon Our Lord.

    Even if they weren’t “disciplined out of the military” (i.e. cashiered), they could still be stuck at the bottom of the promotion list or assigned to unpleasant “leper colony” postings like Thule or Moody.

  179. brian wrote:

    My old Bible group was Plymouth Brethren types, very nice people, but really well shall we say focussed on the Mothership.

    “Focused on the Mothership” — never heard it put in those words before, BUT THAT IS ONE GREAT LINE!

    Just for that:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4PYI6TzqYk

    It was actually sad towards the end because some of these brothers’ faiths were truly twisted up and they were literally terrified they weren’t saved because of how they started doubting the party line. I know that stark terror only too well, constantly thinking you are a “tare” that will be left behind when the rapture happens.

    “Don’t Be Left Behind!”
    (Survivor of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay here…)

  180. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Remember them when the screams of “PERSECUTION!” begin during the War on Christmas 2016 mobilization, six-seven weeks from today.

    That was sick stuff. These ‘christians’ have tormented SO many people with misogyny, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia, anti-this and anti-that …… and my goodness, they see a plain red cup in Starbucks and they can’t take it!

    What a bunch of cowardly cry-babies!

    I do know of some REAL evangelical martyrs and their stories are celebrated among the Anglicans as missionary martyrs, the Stams who were martyred in China, and of course, Lottie Moon who died after giving her food away to her starving Chinese students and weighed only sixty pounds when she died. There are so many more REAL martyrs, but instead we hear about the ‘meanies’ and the bullies and the ones who have thrown so much mud at so many and as soon as someone tells them to ‘stop’, they holler ‘religious discrimination’. Thanks for letting rant. 🙂

  181. okrapod wrote:

    What I meant by “mean” is not going along with what is expected in group think or Political correctness. That is often positioned as being mean. I just don’t play well anymore in those sort of circles. I was also taught to be suspicious of constant flattery and platitudes. Some call it love bombing.

    sounds more like retro high school stuff

  182. Velour wrote:

    Then you have the hounders like at my ex-church, a John MacArthur Master’s Seminary disciple. They are anti-Catholic. Rabidly so.

    Thirty years ago, it would have been a Papa Chuck/Calvary Chapel disciple.

    Though PastorRaulReesOfCalvaryChapelWestCovina (all one word) was even more rabid an anti-Catholic.

    “Oh, the more it changes
    The more it stays the same;
    And the Hand just rearranges
    The players in the game…”
    — Al Stewart, “Nostradamus”

  183. siteseer wrote:

    This is my pessimism talking but I think it is just that it doesn’t serve their purposes if the persons of the Trinity are equal.

    Because someone has to be on Top and Someone has to be on the Bottom for Divine/Cosmic Justification.

  184. Christiane wrote:

    many Christian people who reached out to them, risking themselves, and saved them from annihilation. No, that story doesn’t need to be ‘told’, it is being ‘lived’ and those descendants are the proof of Christian courage in those days, Catholic and Protestant both.

    Exactly, Christiane. There were Christians of all denominations who were in the minority and risked it all to save Jewish people during World War II. And then there were people of all denominations who failed, were cowed, didn’t care.

  185. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Then you have the hounders like at my ex-church, a John MacArthur Master’s Seminary disciple. They are anti-Catholic. Rabidly so.
    Thirty years ago, it would have been a Papa Chuck/Calvary Chapel disciple.
    Though PastorRaulReesOfCalvaryChapelWestCovina (all one word) was even more rabid an anti-Catholic.
    “Oh, the more it changes
    The more it stays the same;
    And the Hand just rearranges
    The players in the game…”
    — Al Stewart, “Nostradamus”

    Glad you escaped the clutches of Calvary Chapel.

  186. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Remember them when the screams of “PERSECUTION!” begin during the War on Christmas 2016 mobilization, six-seven weeks from today.

    And as one man posted a bold retort on Twitter to the Red Cup Ruckus started by that AZ loudmouth/”pastor” at a Starbucks, “I’m going to boycott The Bible because it doesn’t say ‘Merry Christmas’.” Touche.

  187. Velour wrote:

    And then there were people of all denominations who failed, were cowed, didn’t care.

    same today with the Syrian refugees fleeing the worst kind of horror in their homeland

  188. Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    And then there were people of all denominations who failed, were cowed, didn’t care.
    same today with the Syrian refugees fleeing the worst kind of horror in their homeland

    Precisely.

  189. Lydia wrote:

    I was also taught to be suspicious of constant flattery and platitudes.

    I am generally suspicious of it too, particularly when it’s over the top. When I have not been suspicious I have been burned. So I feel you on that.

  190. @ okrapod:
    Maybe it is just the subtle censoring about everywhere you go these days…..you either agree or you are a homophobe, islamaphobe, etc. it gets old.

  191. Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    I am very fearful of what Islam does to women. I will never understand why lefties defend it.

    Because it’s a Fashionably Quaint Third World religion, unlike those EEEEVIL First World Capitalist Imperialist Christians (like Mommy and Daddy who kept telling me “NO!”).

    And Enemy of my Enemy (those Republican Rednecks) Is My Friend.

  192. Velour wrote:

    Glad you escaped the clutches of Calvary Chapel.

    Actually, I was never in CC itself (just an independent local Fellowship(TM)), but I live near Ground Zero for the whole CC movement and they dominated the Christian AM airwaves and influenced most (if not all) of the non-denom and Born-Agains around here. Remember the one about “Non-denominational = Baptist with the labels painted over”? Here it was “Non-denominational = Calvary Chapel Clone”, “Born-Again = Calvary Chapel Clone”, “Bible-Believing = Calvary Chapel Clone”.

  193. Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    I am very fearful of what Islam does to women. I will never understand why lefties defend it.

    Well, LYDIA
    I can say that extremism in ANY religion is detrimental to the human spirit. I think we both know that, so I understand your concern.
    But to take an entire faith and all of its followers and judge negatively without getting to know people, and to perhaps come to judge it based on extremism? This all seems a little bit too ‘easy’. I remember your concerns about Islam from the days of Wade’s blog. I believe you are sincere in your fears about them. I myself hate what ISIS represents and I have no good opinion about the oil kingdoms and their treatment of women, but we have citizens in our country who don’t deserve to be judged based on those extremes and we allies like Jordan that break the stereotype. I prefer to go case by case, person by person; plus my own Church has a much different attitude towards people of the Islamic faith than evangelicals do. So we see things differently. I can at least understand WHY you have concerns, yes. People in Europe who have taken Muslim refugees in are experiencing the shock of Islamic extremists inability to adjust to the cultures of the host countries. The differences are too great. Often, host countries have seen their women targeted by extremist Islamic men, so that is something of great concern with our Western European allies.

  194. Please, before you critise another religion and its attitude towards women find out what that religion actually teaches. I am dismayed to see someone criticising Islam without obviously reading what the Koran teaches about women. Look at how we have been thought of in Judisim thought ‘LORD thank you that I am not born a woman’! Traditional Hindus do not believe that women will be reincarnated! Buddhists have their own cultural anti female attitude. As a non American Christian I could well walk away from the church when I read about the attitude of so many pastors – where was it I read that a pastor says that we women were NOT made in God’s image? Rather than look at other faiths and their, often imposed by culture, attitudes towards us let’s focus on the church and how so often we are let down by the very people/place who and that should be there for us.

  195. Clarissa wrote:

    find out what that religion actually teaches

    I can see this two ways, though. How much of that is cultural and how much is religion? We talk a lot about the ‘bad fruit’ of different christian theology…I think you can say the same thing about Islam. Much bad fruit, where women are concerned.

    IF Grudem says abuse is not allowed, but winks at it when it happens I discount what he says and watch what he does.

    (as for what the Koran says, my understand is that it is sort of progressive in its attitude and that alot of what people actually practice comes from the commentary (ish) side of things although I can’t remember the name. So maybe that’s kind of complicated. I do know that people I know personally who are muslim are required to wear those hot clothes in a hot climate and they don’t do it when they come to the US and have a choice).

  196. @ Lea:
    Boles issue has little to do with his religion & more to do with pathological compulsion. Religion was the enabler.

  197. Jack wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Boles issue has little to do with his religion & more to do with pathological compulsion. Religion was the enabler.

    I agree, but I do believe the churches response to these types of things are hindered by their reliance on the importance of so called elders and their belief that women are not as important in the grand scheme of things. I don’t think a proper theology that comes from Jesus would react to something like this by talking about how much they love Dustin and not getting into how much they love and respect and have to care for the victims. Although I’m honestly not clear from their statements that they even understand or care that their are victims.

  198. @ Christiane:
    I guess you don’t see what you just did in that comment, do you? I belueve even so called peaceful Islam is “extreme” when it comes to women. I don’t think all of Christendom rates as extreme. And I think Christianity can make a case for mutuality. I don’t believe Islam can.

    Now you can try to map that to “hate” or some “phobia” as much as you like but you would be wrong ……but that is just how you roll. I guess I am just an old feminist.

  199. @ Christiane:
    “Sincere in your fear”. Good twist. As I said, you are good at what you do. . I said, I fear for women in Islam. This is the sort of twisting that makes you seem disingenuous to me.

  200. Lydia wrote:

    you don’t see what you just did in that comment, do you

    well, you are right about one thing …. it was ‘a comment’, not a ‘conversation’, which might it might have become, but that was cancelled ….

    blogging is not optimum for communicating, even in the best of situations,
    but it is still some form of an interchange of ideas, unless of course, it’s not

    🙂

  201. Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    I am very fearful of what Islam does to women. I will never understand why lefties defend it.

    I don’t think that people are defending Islam, rather they are defending innocent, decent people who would never harm a fly who happened to be raised in a certain faith.
    Defining them by the worst in their group — killers — is like defining us because of the worst in our group like the KKK.

    I have many women friends who were raised in Muslim countries. If anybody knows how oppressive it can be — they do. But that said, they are also doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, dentists, writers, teachers, nurses, and some of the smartest, most hard-working decent people I have ever known.

    They have put up with all kinds of terrible things in their countries to advance the cause of women under various regimes. They have lived under these regimes and they are more jaded about them and know how they work than the rest of us. They and their family members have been arrested, held without trial, and tortured for the slightest freedoms that we are used to. Everything they do has the potential to be censured and used against them.

    I know Middle Eastern women who are very famous because of their own accomplishments to better the lives of women. Because of their safety, and that of their families, I won’t identify them, their countries, or their awards.

    If you really knew the people I knew, you’d love them as much as I do, have their backs.
    I wouldn’t let any harm come to them. They’re my friends. They wouldn’t let any harm come to me.

    By the way, one elderly woman architect I know in the U.S. lived in a Middle Eastern country for years and helped design the country’s infrastructure. When she was set to return to the United States years later, the entire village showed up at her home to tell her how worried they were for her, how America was such a violent place, lots of guns and violence, she could get shot, and they just didn’t want her to go to such an unsafe place.
    They were worried sick about her. Sweet, good people. Like you and me.

  202. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Glad you escaped the clutches of Calvary Chapel.
    Actually, I was never in CC itself (just an independent local Fellowship(TM)), but I live near Ground Zero for the whole CC movement and they dominated the Christian AM airwaves and influenced most (if not all) of the non-denom and Born-Agains around here. Remember the one about “Non-denominational = Baptist with the labels painted over”? Here it was “Non-denominational = Calvary Chapel Clone”, “Born-Again = Calvary Chapel Clone”, “Bible-Believing = Calvary Chapel Clone”.

    Got it. Thanks.

  203. okrapod wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    What I meant by “mean” is not going along with what is expected in group think or Political correctness. That is often positioned as being mean. I just don’t play well anymore in those sort of circles. I was also taught to be suspicious of constant flattery and platitudes. Some call it love bombing.
    okra pod wrote: Whatever it is called I think you do it well, and I try to do it also. And I note that there are others who comment here who apparently feel the same way. You go, girl.

    I’d call it honest.

  204. It is interesting that Dustin Boles can say this in an email to Mosaic staff (TWW posted this in a previous post):

    However, I have addressed my issues deeply and thoroughly. It really is amazing how much temptation goes away as soon as you are not in ministry any more. (I am not recommending a career change… especially the way I did it.) It is just different when you don’t have such a huge target on you.

    If Boles is really stalking this individual as alleged then it sure doesn’t sound like Boles has “addressed” his “issues deeply and throughly.” Also maybe the tempation didn’t go away “as soon as you are not in ministry” as Boles claimed.

    This is really sad to read about all of this. I wonder if there are other women that Boles is stalking.

  205. Steve240 wrote:

    “It really is amazing how much temptation goes away as soon as you are not in ministry any more … It is just different when you don’t have such a huge target on you” (Dustin Boles)

    Well, Dustin, with your latest escapades precipitating a police report, you’ve got a HUGE target on you now! As far as you ever being in “ministry”, that is questionable.

  206. @ Velour:

    So women who go along with patriarchy/comp and defend it are innocent well meaning women, too? Or are they trapped? 0r do some derive some sort of caste system power from it? Who do they harm by promoting and defending it?

  207. @ Velour:
    See what you did, too? You automatically assumed I know no decent Muslim women and would not “have their backs. It is this positional “either/or” tribal thinking that is going to be the death of this country.

  208. Lydia wrote:

    See what you did, too? You automatically assumed I know no decent Muslim women and would not “have their backs.

    Sometimes people think you have the opinions you have because you somehow don’t know as much as they do. Or because you don’t care. It would be nice if people would realize that people can have all the information and come to different conclusions for legitimate and human reasons.

  209. Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    So women who go along with patriarchy/comp and defend it are innocent well meaning women, too? Or are they trapped? 0r do some derive some sort of caste system power from it? Who do they harm by promoting and defending it?

    Lydia, I defended it for years. I bear the responsibility for encouraging other women in what I found to be, in my own life, more than a decade later, a destructive force.

    I didn’t get brownie points or some sort of status boost out of it. I was in earnest, and sincere.

    But people can be sincerely wrong.

    So I would agree with whoever said women who defend patriarchy/comp *can* be innocent and well meaning and simply trying to honor God in the way they have been taught, as well as being taught that any perceived problem is their own fault, and not the system’s.

    I don’t know that they are *all* innocent and well-meaning, of course. Mary Kassian comes to mind as one who doesn’t seem to set a shining personal example of walking in a way to honor God. Judgmental of me to say that, I suppose.

  210. Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    See what you did, too? You automatically assumed I know no decent Muslim women and would not “have their backs. It is this positional “either/or” tribal thinking that is going to be the death of this country.

    Lydia, you have me thoroughly confused.

  211. Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    So women who go along with patriarchy/comp and defend it are innocent well meaning women, too? Or are they trapped? 0r do some derive some sort of caste system power from it? Who do they harm by promoting and defending it?

    I’m so sorry, Lydia, but I’m honestly not following your train of thought.

  212. @ Lea:
    I have had Muslims in my life since I was 14. My mom was very involved with University Friendship program and many lived with us during breaks over many years. I have also been very involved with Muslim refugee programs. I have studied the Quran. Right now I help with an ESL program in a refugee apt complex.

    People assume if you disagree, you have been living in a cave or the backwoods and are not as “enlightened” as they are.

  213. Lydia wrote:

    @ Lea:
    I have had Muslims in my life since I was 14. My mom was very involved with University Friendship program and many lived with us during breaks over many years. I have also been very involved with Muslim refugee programs. I have studied the Quran. Right now I help with an ESL program in a refugee apt complex.
    People assume if you disagree, you have been living in a cave or the backwoods and are not as “enlightened” as they are.

    That’s great, Lydia, about your ESL work, etc.

    Perhaps your point of disagreement on immigration/refugees was clear to you, but it is not to people like me.

    I shared why I defended Muslims that know who are wonderful people.

    I guess we could carry on that discussion on the Open Discussion forum if you wish.

  214. There are times when I wish we sat around a table and could talk with one another and LISTEN and try to understand better the upsets and worries and concerns that so often show up in sharpness and anger on line.
    But at least this is one media that offers some opportunity for venting. And that, at least, is something worthwhile.

  215. Christiane wrote:

    There are times when I wish we sat around a table and could talk with one another and LISTEN and try to understand better the upsets and worries and concerns that so often show up in sharpness and anger on line.
    But at least this is one media that offers some opportunity for venting. And that, at least, is something worthwhile.

    You read my mind. I was just thinking the same thing.

  216. Lydia wrote:

    So women who go along with patriarchy/comp and defend it are innocent well meaning women, too? Or are they trapped? 0r do some derive some sort of caste system power from it? Who do they harm by promoting and defending it?

    If nothing else realize that there is a big difference between patriarchy and complimentarian. Patriarch is much more extreme.

    I am sure some are trapped in patriarchy and some grew up only knowing that way.

  217. Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ Lea:
    I have had Muslims in my life since I was 14. My mom was very involved with University Friendship program and many lived with us during breaks over many years. I have also been very involved with Muslim refugee programs. I have studied the Quran. Right now I help with an ESL program in a refugee apt complex.
    People assume if you disagree, you have been living in a cave or the backwoods and are not as “enlightened” as they are.
    That’s great, Lydia, about your ESL work, etc.
    Perhaps your point of disagreement on immigration/refugees was clear to you, but it is not to people like me.
    I shared why I defended Muslims that know who are wonderful people.
    I guess we could carry on that discussion on the Open Discussion forum if you wish.

    This may come off a bit harsh but this cartoon is close to the logic of what we have been discussing. I am sure there are wonderful patriarchal people, right? Does that make patriarchy good or those who disagree with it, haters with a phobia?

    http://jokes.conservativepapers.com/2016/09/17/confused-liberals-on-primitive-people/

  218. @ Christiane:
    We have been conversing since around 2007. Love bombing in person can be even worse as some know who have been sucked in to it. You set up either/or false scenarios. The Neo Cals do the same so if one disagrees, they are automatically put in the bad category.

  219. Lydia wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    @ Lea:
    I have had Muslims in my life since I was 14. My mom was very involved with University Friendship program and many lived with us during breaks over many years. I have also been very involved with Muslim refugee programs. I have studied the Quran. Right now I help with an ESL program in a refugee apt complex.
    People assume if you disagree, you have been living in a cave or the backwoods and are not as “enlightened” as they are.
    That’s great, Lydia, about your ESL work, etc.
    Perhaps your point of disagreement on immigration/refugees was clear to you, but it is not to people like me.
    I shared why I defended Muslims that know who are wonderful people.
    I guess we could carry on that discussion on the Open Discussion forum if you wish.
    This may come off a bit harsh but this cartoon is close to the logic of what we have been discussing. I am sure there are wonderful patriarchal people, right? Does that make patriarchy good or those who disagree with it, haters with a phobia?
    http://jokes.conservativepapers.com/2016/09/17/confused-liberals-on-primitive-people/

    I am still unclear at what you’re driving at and why you keep coming back to name-calling scenarios. It hadn’t crossed my mind about you or anyone in this discussion. We’re in the dark – or at least I am – about your position and how you arrived at it. Who, what, where, when, and why.

  220. Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    We have been conversing since around 2007. Love bombing in person can be even worse as some know who have been sucked in to it. You set up either/or false scenarios. The Neo Cals do the same so if one disagrees, they are automatically put in the bad category.

    We have exchanged comments, yes. But I’m not certain we have ever really communicated. I accept responsibility for that on my own end, yes. I’m sorry if I have failed to understand you.

  221. @ Velour:
    What does knowing nice Muslim women have to do with Islamic teaching about women? There are very nice Wiccans, too. Very nice Mormons, etc. Would you draw the same conclusions there, too? Disagreement with their beliefs means hate or a phobia against them?

    You continue to equate disgreement with positions or beliefs and thinking badly of individuals or even hating them. That is a huge leap but it is political correctness on steroids. And it does nothing but set up censoring situations of political correctness. If that is true, we had best stop discussing comp doctrines. It would be hate.

    In my view Calvinism is close to Islam in terms of determinism and their beliefs about women’s roles. Although practices are different. I would love to see women unburdened from that.

    I am not sure how I can make it any clearer.

  222. The problem with online communication is that one cannot see facial expression, read body language or hear tone of voice and it is much more likely for someone’s post to be read as manipulative, condescending or angry and make assumptions about motivation. Perhaps a little “benefit of the doubt” on all sides could go a long way.

  223. @ Lydia:
    I disagree. But I can certainly accept ‘dropping it’ whatever ‘it’ was, if it makes you happy. 🙂

  224. Niteowl wrote:

    The problem with online communication is that one cannot see facial expression, read body language or hear tone of voice and it is much more likely for someone’s post to be read as manipulative, condescending or angry and make assumptions about motivation. Perhaps a little “benefit of the doubt” on all sides could go a long way.

    wise words

  225. Lydia wrote:

    You continue to equate disgreement with positions or beliefs and thinking badly of individuals or even hating them. That is a huge leap but it is political correctness on steroids. And it does nothing but set up censoring situations of political correctness. If that is true, we had best stop discussing comp doctrines. It would be hate.

    Hi Lydia,

    I guess it’s just best at this point if we drop the convo and move on. We’re not getting anywhere, obviously not communicating.

    I don’t equate disagreement with people from other countries with hatred for them, etc.

    I’m watching the “White Hats” documentary on Netflix (about 40 minutes) about the guys who go in to bombed out buildings in Syria and neighborhoods to save people if they can, or carry out the dead. They just rescued a week old baby from the rubble (alive) and everybody cried.

    I really feel for those folks. They’ve got Putin’s Russian bombers flying overhead bombing them right and left and Muslim extremists/Isis on the ground. Those poor folks can’t win.

    A large chunk of my family were murdered under Stalin in Russia and the Communist take-over and survivors fled to America in 1917. So I get the plight of these people. War is closer to my family, death, tyrants, than to most folks. Stalin killed more people in the breadbasket of Russia (starving many of them to get their land) than Hitler killed.

    It’s just sad and bad.

    Take care and have a good week.

  226. @ Lydia:

    I forgot to mention that just like we have The Dones in Christianity, fed up with institutional religion and its abuses, the same is true for Muslims. Millions of them.
    Many women. So they don’t ratify abusive conduct toward women.

  227. Lydia wrote:

    In my view Calvinism is close to Islam in terms of determinism and their beliefs about women’s roles. Although practices are different. I would love to see women unburdened from that.

    I get what you are saying and you never said anything disparaging about any particular person. You simply expressed an “opinion about Islam” and it’s similarity to Christian Patriarchy. There was no need for anyone to defend their Muslim friends as you said nothing about anyone’s Muslim acquaintances.

  228. Bridget wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    In my view Calvinism is close to Islam in terms of determinism and their beliefs about women’s roles. Although practices are different. I would love to see women unburdened from that.
    I get what you are saying and you never said anything disparaging about any particular person. You simply expressed an “opinion about Islam” and it’s similarity to Christian Patriarchy. There was no need for anyone to defend their Muslim friends as you said nothing about anyone’s Muslim acquaintances.

    Perhaps you missed it. She asked a question yesterday about why people would defend Muslims. I answered that question.

  229. @ Velour:
    Velour, I look at some Muslim women who have more freedom and chance for education than some Christian girls.

    If you look at the daughters of the patriarchal Christian families that foster teachings like quiver-full and male-headship, you may find fathers attempting to control who their daughters see for something they call ‘courtship’. In that world, education at the college level is discouraged certainly, and there are few such daughters who make it out of that world to live freely and develop their own lives and talents.

    Then if you look at someone like the princess Iman of Jordan, you find a nineteen-year old who is studying at one of the premier universities in our country for international studies: Georgetown in Washington D.C. She has full parental support for this and it does signal that she may be training to someday serve in her homeland or as an international officer for her country.

    I think we sometimes trust too much to steriotypes, and it is way too simplistic to do that and come out of it sounding knowledgeable about a whole set of people. I’m one for knowing case-by-case, person-by-person. But it is not something our American fast-paced, half-hour attention problem solving attention spans are geared to. In short, we Americans are more comfortable with our stereotyping, but in the end, we get it wrong more than we get it right.

    It helps to come from a family of immigrants to understand how diversity among a people-group needs to be given its due consideration, yes.

  230. @ Christiane:

    Nice comment, Christiane.

    I am watching the 40-minute documentary on Netflix called “White Helmets” about the men in Syria who rescue people from bombed out buildings. They just saved a baby who was 1-week old and everybody cried.

    Putin’s Russian bombers bomb the Syrian people to smitheereens. A Russian plane just dropped bombs (cluster bombs?). Oh my gosh…it blew up about 5 city blocks…long blocks. Maybe longer. A huge area.

    Yes, a case by case basis.

    And yes, I’m from a family of immigrants, from war-torn Russia in 1917, who never got to see their families again under the Communist take over. Many of their family members were killed under Stalin.

  231. @ Velour:
    As you know, my father immigrated here from Canada as a five year old. He spoke no English. I have some insight into the struggles of my grandparents, who came here with little, and I see in their strength and character the seeds of what fired up their descendants to accomplish much in this wonderful country. I hope you keep in touch with your ethnic relatives and celebrate your own rich heritage. My godmother’s people were from the Ukraine. She told many stories about them.

    It’s good to be ABLE to be comfortable around ethnic people, and it’s probably easier if your own family was ethnic and immigrant. Understanding diversity comes best from experiencing first-hand.

  232. Velour wrote:

    Perhaps you missed it. She asked a question yesterday about why people would defend Muslims. I answered that question.

    I did read it. I read the word Islam, not Muslim. Maybe people were responding to something she did not even say.

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    I am very fearful of what Islam does to women. I will never understand why lefties defend it.

  233. @ Bridget:

    I took it the same way you did, Bridget. Worry for women in Islam is not hatred of women in islam. Worry for women trapped in comp churches where they are not valued and told they do not matter is not the same as hatred of those women either.

  234. Nancy2 wrote:

    I’d call it honest.

    Me, too. I’m way too plainspoken for Political Correctness of any kind. Ideas are better for being tested by vigorous dialog and debate, and Political Correctness is another way of thought-stopping by idealogues. I consider attempted censorship of my straightforward speech a micro-aggression. 🙂

  235. Velour wrote:

    I am watching the 40-minute documentary on Netflix called “White Helmets” about the men in Syria who rescue people from bombed out buildings. They just saved a baby who was 1-week old and everybody cried.

    I watched it also. I admire these brave people. They are family-oriented and believe in God and pray often. In my Church, we can pray in solidarity with Muslim people. That is something I’m proud of.

    Yes, I cried too when they got the tiny baby out. Hard to imagine these beautiful people not being loved by God. We count them among the members of the Abrahamic religions: Jewish, Christian, and Islamic

    Good film, sad, heart-breakingly moving, I’m going to watch it again during Advent season. Thanks for the reference.

  236. “Women if you are dressing a certain way to get a guy to look at you, you are out of luck. A guy will look at anything.” –Dustin Boles

    On topic, found this on twitter so I don’t know where it came from. But…what?

  237. Lea wrote:

    “Women if you are dressing a certain way to get a guy to look at you, you are out of luck. A guy will look at anything.” –Dustin Boles
    On topic, found this on twitter so I don’t know where it came from. But…what?

    Perhaps Dustin is projecting there.

  238. Lea wrote:

    “Women if you are dressing a certain way to get a guy to look at you, you are out of luck. A guy will look at anything.” –Dustin Boles

    There’s entirely too much of this sort of “preaching” in New Calvinist ranks by folks who shouldn’t be in the ministry! Sooner or later, the rest of Christendom will take note of the errors of the reformed movement and shun it.

  239. Max wrote:

    There’s entirely too much of this sort of “preaching” in New Calvinist ranks by folks who shouldn’t be in the ministry!

    I’m not sure why so many of these preachers think they are either dating or sex coaches! No!!

  240. Lea wrote:

    I’m not sure why so many of these preachers think they are either dating or sex coaches!

    Because they are primarily dating and sex coaches, not preachers of the Gospel!

  241. @ bc:

    I am not opposed to religious organizations at the USAF Academy. The guy who made a false accusation against me did the Navigators. His Navigators director married him and his wife in 2005.

    What I am opposed to is people who do stuff that is reckless, and which threatens people’s ability to earn income or destroy their life. All I wanted to do was to sit down and work things out. That never happened, and the false accusation poisoned my job to the point I am looking for another one. Andrew’s father actually taught at the Academy as well. His father is not a Christian from what Andrew told me. All I wanted to do was work things out, but this guy has no interest. Sometimes I wonder why I held back a lawsuit? I showed this guy more grace than he realizes and he still can’t approach me and say “Dave I’m sorry, I was wrong…”

    The evangelical world is small, very small. Andrew can’t run from your mistakes forever. Jonah is a clear example of what happens when a person tries to flee. That said, if he ever wants to work things out I am willing.

  242. Friend wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    No two callers had the same Conspiracy behind it (Illuminati…) and fell into infighting with the others (who were obviously disinformation by The Conspiracy — Illuminati…).

    I heard it was either the Bilderberg Group or the Build A Bear Workshop.

    No Shapeshifting Cannibal Alien Lizards from inside The Hollow Earth? (David Icke)

    If you’re going to do a Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory, let it be something original! And unique! Like…

    Deros shining their Telaug Rays up from inside The Hollow Earth! (Richard Shaver)

    Communist Gangster Computer God on the Dark Side of the Moon Puppeting Parrot Gangster Assassins through Frankenstein Earphone Radio Controls! (Francis E Dec, Esq)

  243. So now she is victimized twice! Why would you want to add to the pain she and her family have already suffered. What purpose was served in announcing “she used her maiden name” other than making yourself feel good about knowing something others may not have known. What business is it of yours. And then you bring her husband into it. You should be ashamed of yourself. Grow up and find something better to do with your time other than gossiping!

  244. Daisy wrote:

    I don’t know what the rules are in her state, but if it’s legal, she should maybe purchase a handgun and be sure that if the weirdo follows her, he can observe her as she drives to the nearest shooting range and takes up target practice.

    I agree. Nothing like a weapon to discourage unwanted attention….

  245. Steve240 wrote:

    If Boles is really stalking this individual as alleged then it sure doesn’t sound like Boles has “addressed” his “issues deeply and throughly.” Also maybe the tempation didn’t go away “as soon as you are not in ministry” as Boles claimed.

    He means that he addressed them deeply & thoroughly, and he decided to keep on as he had been, only more so, because he likes being like that.
    Characteristic of sociopaths everywhere….