Why Is Dustin Boles Moving Into a House Near His Alleged Victim?

It has come to our attention that Dustin Boles and his wife are allegedly moving a couple of doors down  several houses (correction)away  from one of his victims. His child will switch schools and be in the same school as a couple of Boles' alleged victims' children. Here is what he said to the Mosaic Church in the letter posted yesterday.

We are currently selling our house and getting tons of interest. We are hoping to sell it soon at full asking price. We already have a house locked in to lease just a half mile away in the Promenade neighborhood in OS. Half the price of our mortgage and a lot bigger house! (By the way, if you ever plan on failing epically like I did make sure you have your FPU crap together first. It really helps.

Note that he does not mention the proximity to one of his victims. TWW finds this behavior on the part of both Boles and his wife disconcerting. This appears to demonstrate an utter lack of concern for the alleged victim as well as his own family. 

Comments

Why Is Dustin Boles Moving Into a House Near His Alleged Victim? — 128 Comments

  1. If I were the victim, I would get a court order to keep the Boles family away from me.

    I would also note that this house is being leased. Maybe some publicity will encourage Dustin to move elsewhere.

  2. There is so much weird in this whole thing. Why are they moving? Who or what actually owns the house that is up for sale? Is that part of FPU "cr#p."  (ed.)If FPU is "cr#p" (ed.) then why is he saying FPU "cr#p" (ed.) really helps when someone epically fails?

  3. Victims?

    I thought DUSTIN was the victim, both of the church elders who really hurt him and Nat by cutting them out and of course that young lady from the church who, you know, attacked HIM and sexually assaulted HIM in that car (evidently because he’s such an all-around hottie she couldn’t keep her hands off him), and that other lady who just totally LIED about him putting his hands up her thighs while she sat in that same car with her husband and children (evidently because she’d become a TOOL of SATAN to slander HIM, Dustin Boles, who was such an awesome expositor of the Scriptures that the ENEMY just had to TAKE POOR DUSTIN OUT).

    This is Dustin’s way of showing GRACE TO HIS ABUSERS, showing that it’s all right, I FORGIVE YOU FOR SLANDERING ME.

    Why can’t you people get it?

  4. It’s almost like either a conscious or a sub-conscious effort at intimidation. ‘Stalking’ comes to mind. Surely his wife had some say in this? Oh, I forgot, she is ‘under the head-ship of her husband’. Maybe she needs to protect EVERYONE concerned now and remove her children from potentially awkward difficulties, and spare the victim further torment (and this IS further torment), and get her husband away from what can only be a very bad scene. It looks to all the world like he is ‘stalking’ and trying to intimidate a victim. His wife must know this. Is she also so irresponsible?

  5. Law Prof wrote:

    This is Dustin’s way of showing GRACE TO HIS ABUSERS, showing that it’s all right, I FORGIVE YOU FOR SLANDERING ME.

    Than was great comment.

  6. @ Christiane:
    It does sound like stalking to me. I am hoping that the police will become more involved in this matter since it seems to be escalating-something that has me a bit worried.

  7. I don’t know much about this town in terms of size. I assume it’s not large. But come on! Is it really that small that the only option for lease is literally doors down from an alleged victim? This is beyond weird. Oh, but it’s a bigger house? Well, hot dog. That makes so much sense.
    Not to mention, why isn’t Mrs. Boles taking a time out of sorts? Wouldn’t her world be rocked with these types of allegations? Is she really that defensive of her man? That blind? Naive? Or complicit? WTH

  8. Why Is Dustin Boles Moving Into a House on the Same Street as an Alleged Victim?

    EASE OF ACCESS.

  9. dee wrote:

    It does sound like stalking to me.

    I think I would need to know more particulars – it is certainly possible in a smallish town these things could happen by chance (ie not giving up a great house because of the location).

    Not that I’m inclined to give this guy the benefit of the doubt, though, because it certainly seems pretty creepy.

    But what about the wife?? Does she feel she isn’t allowed to leave him? IF nothing else you would think she would object to this. I have lots of questions about her.

  10. Any mention of where Dustin Boles and family will attend church or are they in the “done” category?

    I think the move which is only a half mile away seems to be one of economics; they can save some money.

  11. I know that Boles is not on the Mississippi sex-offenders list, but essentially that was the nature of the transgression which cost him his ministry. In most States (if not all), sex-offenders are prohibited from living in close proximity to those they abused. Not to mention, that common sense would tell you that this is not appropriate. The fact that Boles’ letters to staff and church members did not mention anything about his victims, indicates he is in denial about the magnitude of his actions … so he probably doesn’t give a big whoop about making his neighbors feel uncomfortable.

  12. Melissa wrote:

    I don’t know much about this town in terms of size. I assume it’s not large. But come on! Is it really that small that the only option for lease is literally doors down from an alleged victim?

    Ocean Springs, MS is by the Mississippi Gulf Coast. That entire area is just kind of one town after another. It’s not very far from a military base. I have a friend who lived near there for a couple of years. There’s LOTS of rental property.

  13. Max wrote:

    In most States (if not all), sex-offenders are prohibited from living in close proximity to those they abused.

    Maybe if they had taken out a restraining order this could have been prevented? I’m not sure how that works. Probably they weren’t expecting him to move a couple doors down, because who does that…

  14. Stupidity

    Definition: “behavior that shows a lack of good sense or judgment”

    Synonyms: lack of intelligence, foolishness, denseness, brainlessness, ignorance, dull-wittedness, slowness

  15. @ Melissa:

    It’s smallish for a city when considering what it’s surrounded by (Mobile, AL; Biloxi and Gulfport in MS; about an hour and a half from New Orleans) and has a quaint feeling downtown, but it’s definitely not a one stop sign kind of small. It has a Walmart and two other full grocery stores. A busy highway runs through it. It’s near I-10. Although Ocean Springs is considered a more desirable location than some of the surrounding locales, this one house and this one neighborhood is not the only option in the city.

  16. Lea wrote:

    (ie not giving up a great house because of the location)

    I will concede that with Ocean Springs being one of the more popular places to move in this county these days (unless you want to go more rural), taking an opportunity for a bigger home for less money may be almost impossible to resist, if that’s what happened. Sickening, but there you go.

    There’s enough rental property to go around, but I don’t know his particular situation involving housing.

  17. “His child will switch schools and be in the same school as a couple of boles’ alleged victims”

    Another potential problem for school events.

    And where ever the wife is going to teach needs to know….which is why filing charges is so important.

  18. Moving next door to your victims? This, coupled with the last account of his attack on a woman (with the help of his wife) makes me wonder if they are both sexual abusers. Sexual predators in general enjoy torturing their victims which would explain their choice of move and school relocation. That way, their victims would constantly be living in a state of fear, waiting for the next attack, giving this man and his wife a sense of power and control.

    If the wife isn’t part of this, then I’d chalk it up to patriarchal doctrine (the kind that says a woman will go to hell for denying her husband whatever he wants and that she is protected from his sin.)

  19. Sam wrote:

    I’d chalk it up to patriarchal doctrine (the kind that says a woman will go to hell for denying her husband whatever he wants and that she is protected from his sin.

    That’s one satanic doctrine! Wow!

  20. Gram3 wrote:

    There is so much weird in this whole thing. Why are they moving? Who or what actually owns the house that is up for sale? Is that part of FPU “cr#p.”  (ed.)If FPU is “cr#p” (ed.) then why is he saying FPU “cr#p” (ed.) really helps when someone epically fails?

    I don’t think he’s disparaging FPU, I think he’s being “cool” and casual in his language. Perhaps he was in charge of the FPU program at the church. (The main places that sponsor Dave Ramsey’s program, if I’m getting the acronym right, are churches.)

    It’s not necessarily a bad program. Some of the precepts have been very helpful to us, personally. Ramsey likely didn’t invent the “cash envelope” system, but he certainly explains it clearly and makes it sound doable.

  21. mirele wrote:

    If I were the victim, I would get a court order to keep the Boles family away from me.

    It sure seems worth checking into. This is just so wrong on so many levels.

  22. refugee wrote:

    It’s not necessarily a bad program. Some of the precepts have been very helpful to us, personally. Ramsey likely didn’t invent the “cash envelope” system, but he certainly explains it clearly and makes it sound doable.

    No, he didn’t invent it but he sure figured a great way to merchandise it in order to fund his own lifestyle, complete with basically living in a castle.
    http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2010/10/15/dave-ramseys-house-living-like-no-one-else/

    I personally think that if something is to be considered a ministry, it should be offered free of charge to God’s people.

  23. @ Ken G:
    Darn straight. he does seem to have some connection with Oasis Church but my guess is that the church will not be too thrilled about him after this past week.

  24. Sam wrote:

    Moving next door to your victims? This, coupled with the last account of his attack on a woman (with the help of his wife) makes me wonder if they are both sexual abusers. Sexual predators in general enjoy torturing their victims which would explain their choice of move and school relocation.

    This is a great comment.

  25. @ Lydia:
    i am not at liberty to give the full info on this but the victims are trying to pursue justice and we are trying to help them. The police and the DA are aware of the situation.

  26. Sam wrote:

    Moving next door to your victims? This, coupled with the last account of his attack on a woman (with the help of his wife) makes me wonder if they are both sexual abusers. Sexual predators in general enjoy torturing their victims which would explain their choice of move and school relocation. That way, their victims would constantly be living in a state of fear, waiting for the next attack, giving this man and his wife a sense of power and control.

    How else can you take this? It’s either this or they are monumentally stupid/lacking any understanding of what is appropriate and inappropriate/lacking in common decency.

  27. Jo wrote:

    taking an opportunity for a bigger home for less money may be almost impossible to resist, if that’s what happened. Sickening, but there you go.

    A predator always has a good excuse as to the *whys* of his situation. But a Christian would sacrifice if they truly cared about the victim.

  28. Max wrote:

    There is no shortage of arrogance in New Calvinism.

    There is no shortage of throwing victims under the bus either. Not a peep being heard from Acts 29.

  29. In case some readers weren’t aware, Dave Ramsey has a pattern of being interpersonally exploitive and bouts of uncontrolled anger. When a business partner severs a relationship with him over this, he has come back with a “scorched earth” response. Then he demands that his staff coverup and excuse his outbursts

    Ramsey has other flaws in his theology like requiring a 10% tithe. He is essential a very wealthy man by charging the sheep to convince them to downsize their own lifestyles, and give the savings to the local 501c3 corporation masquerading as a church, so the founding senior pastor can upsize his lifestyle, hire his kids to 6-figure salaries, get a vacation home, etc.

    Ramsey is a very well-compensated cog in the wheel of the Evangelical Industrial Empire.

  30. dee wrote:

    Jo wrote:

    taking an opportunity for a bigger home for less money may be almost impossible to resist, if that’s what happened. Sickening, but there you go.

    A predator always has a good excuse as to the *whys* of his situation. But a Christian would sacrifice if they truly cared about the victim.

    Looks like there’s toooooooo many things that he finds impossible to resist. A compulsive psychopath?

  31. Gram3 wrote:

    Why are they moving? Who or what actually owns the house that is up for sale? … why is he saying FPU really helps when someone epically fails?

    I think what he’s saying is that he had his finances together (no debt/low debt), which is good because (presumably) they have lost income. Why pharmaceutical sales pays less than pastoring is another question altogether. I am guessing they are selling the house also because of lost income? Or to consolidate debt? Or something.

  32. dee wrote:

    But a Christian would sacrifice if they truly cared about the victim.

    We already know he doesn’t actually *care*!

    I think the question is why he is moving next door. In theory there could be a semi innocent explanation, but it is quite suspicious and creepy. If I were this person, I would be very concerned.

  33. siteseer wrote:

    No, he didn’t invent it but he sure figured a great way to merchandise it in order to fund his own lifestyle, complete with basically living in a castle.
    http://www.fivecentnickel.com/2010/10/15/dave-ramseys-house-living-like-no-one-else/
    I personally think that if something is to be considered a ministry, it should be offered free of charge to God’s people.

    Ya. I am disgusted with men who make their millions in the name of Jesus. I have no respect for this man. He has said nothing new, just made millions off of it.

  34. Jessica wrote:

    In case some readers weren’t aware, Dave Ramsey has a pattern of being interpersonally exploitive and bouts of uncontrolled anger.

    Oh yes, I’ve known people who have worked for him.

    FPU has some great points, but feel free to disagree with some of the points. Take what is useful to you and disregard the rest.

  35.  @ dee:

    dee wrote:

    But a Christian would sacrifice if they truly cared about the victim.

    That's what I was thinking, too, but I'm just a simpleton like that.

  36. mirele wrote:

    If I were the victim, I would get a court order to keep the Boles family away from me.

    I would also note that this house is being leased. Maybe some publicity will encourage Dustin to move elsewhere.

    Definitely somethjng worth pursuing!

  37. dee wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    It does sound like stalking to me. I am hoping that the police will become more involved in this matter since it seems to be escalating-something that has me a bit worried.

    I agree! This needs action and fast!

  38. Patriciamc wrote:

    FPU has some great points, but feel free to disagree with some of the points. Take what is useful to you and disregard the rest.

    I never took it, but I got the gist and I agree. I think some of his advice is terrible, in particular his investment advice. And there is nothing in it that someone who has read a few personal finance books could not come up with and teach the church for free, so it’s irritating to see them bilking people out of money for it. But it’s their decision to pay to learn, too, and the business part of me thinks it’s smart. But then I don’t think of him as ‘christian’ I think of him as Suze Orman.

  39. Jessica wrote:

    In case some readers weren’t aware, Dave Ramsey has a pattern of being interpersonally exploitive and bouts of uncontrolled anger. When a business partner severs a relationship with him over this, he has come back with a “scorched earth” response. Then he demands that his staff coverup and excuse his outbursts

    Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Christian Money Guru Dave Ramsey’s Social Media Witch Hunt
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/29/spies-cash-and-fear-inside-christian-money-guru-dave-ramsey-s-social-media-witch-hunt.html

  40. Daisy wrote:

    In case some readers weren’t aware, Dave Ramsey has a pattern of being interpersonally exploitive and bouts of uncontrolled anger. When a business partner severs a relationship with him over this, he has come back with a “scorched earth” response. Then he demands that his staff coverup and excuse his outbursts

    sounds criminal …. what is it lately that ‘leaders’ with ‘scorched earth’ vengeance against those who thwart them are seen as ‘strong’ and admired by people?

    this behavior is not ‘strong’, it’s juvenile and narcissistic

  41. dee wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    i am not at liberty to give the full info on this but the victims are trying to pursue justice and we are trying to help them. The police and the DA are aware of the situation.

    this is hopeful news, DEE

  42. @ Jessica:

    He has a pattern of intimidating anyone who speaks out against him, too. Has forced people to remove blogs and posts about him. He has a lot of power.

  43. @ Daisy:

    He was also an outspoken opponent of the new fiduciary law that would require advisors who have shows like his to give advice in the best interests of those who call in.

  44. dee wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    It does sound like stalking to me. I am hoping that the police will become more involved in this matter since it seems to be escalating-something that has me a bit worried.

    Me, too. I would suggest that each of the victims acquire a few things, if they don’t already have them:
    1) restraining order
    2 ) licsense to carry concealed
    3 ) mace/pepper spray. ………..

    3 )

  45. Patriciamc wrote:

    Oh yes, I’ve known people who have worked for him.

    I’m about an hour and fifteen north of Nashville. Ramsey was on the Nashville news a while back. No don’t remember for sure, but I think one of the people he fired sued him.

  46. This was in this blog post:

    His child will switch schools and be in the same school as a couple of boles’ alleged victims.

    Are you sure you mean what this is apparently saying?

    I am reading that some of Boles’ alleged victims are school age (usually under 18). If so this is the first I have heard that who Boles’ victims were under 18. Though still quite sad and shocking it is even worse if any of the alleged victims were underage.

    Perhaps you meant that Boles’ child will be in the same school as the victim’s children??

  47. One other thought. I can see why the church would want to cover up and not give details of Boles alleged actions.

    It would be one thing if it was just an affair. A pastor having an affair is sadly not that unusual. What you don’t hear about often is a pastor touching woman church members like this especially when woman’s husband is in immediate vicinity.

  48. Jessica wrote:

    Ramsey has other flaws in his theology like requiring a 10% tithe. He is essential a very wealthy man by charging the sheep to convince them to downsize their own lifestyles, and give the savings to the local 501c3 corporation masquerading as a church, so the founding senior pastor can upsize his lifestyle, hire his kids to 6-figure salaries, get a vacation home, etc.

    Though I agree with a lot of what Ramsey teaches, I wonder how much of a racket it might be. Pastors bring in Ramsey’s program to their church and the program teaches how “biblical” tithing is. As a result pastors can produce more members that tithe and thus more income for this pastor’s church.

    This is an account of what happened with some of his employees:

    http://www.nashvillescene.com/news/article/13054087/christian-moneyman-dave-ramseys-powerdrunk-paranoia

    According to this article (and the article it mentions), Ramsey runs quite a tight ship including trying silence any critics (sound familiar like in some churches?).

    Similarly Ramsey has what he calls a “no gossip” policy (sound familiar again like in some churches). From what I can tell instead of using the word “gossip” it should be titled “don’t criticize” unless you share it with someone above you in the work level hierarchy (go up). I guess he thinks calling criticism “gossip” rather than using the word criticism makes his policy more justifiable?

  49. Lea wrote:

    I think what he’s saying is that he had his finances together (no debt/low debt), which is good because (presumably) they have lost income. Why pharmaceutical sales pays less than pastoring is another question altogether. I am guessing they are selling the house also because of lost income? Or to consolidate debt? Or something.

    I think the whole thing about his housing is odd. The house is currently listed for $379,900 (median listing price in OS is $139,000). It’s got 4 bedrooms/2600 sq ft. That sounds like plenty of room for a married couple and one small child.

    He may have told his former church staff that he expects to sell the house quickly for full listing price, but it sounds like wishful thinking to me. I’m starting to wonder if he’s underwater on the house and that’s why they decided to sell it.

    Also, the company he is working for is based in Biloxi. There was no reason for him to move near his victim.

  50. Steve240 wrote:

    I guess he thinks calling criticism “gossip” rather than using the word criticism makes his policy more justifiable?

    It doesn’t really matter, as even Ramsey’s public reactions to his former staff have nothing biblical in them. He only wants other people to treat him nicely, and uses the Bible to bludgeon them over it.

  51. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    I’m starting to wonder if he’s underwater on the house and that’s why they decided to sell it.

    I think either that or his payments were too high. But if he was significantly underwater on his house, he wasn’t doing Ramsey’s plan very well.

    Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    Also, the company he is working for is based in Biloxi. There was no reason for him to move near his victim.

    As near as I can remember, Ocean Springs is smushed right next to Biloxi? I don’t think moving had anything to do with getting closer to work – I’m guess it’s was either all financial, or a combo of finances and creepiness. It is very disturbing that he would move so close to one of his victims.

  52. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    the company he is working for is based in Biloxi. There was no reason for him to move near his victim.

    No GOOD reason.
    My own thought is that moving nearby was NOT a coincidence. This is horrible for the victim, without doubt. And potentially for the victim’s family, which makes the whole hot mess look like planned intimidation on Bole’s part. Surely his wife must know this.

  53. Steve240 wrote:

    One other thought. I can see why the church would want to cover up and not give details of Boles alleged actions.

    It would be one thing if it was just an affair. A pastor having an affair is sadly not that unusual. What you don’t hear about often is a pastor touching woman church members like this especially when woman’s husband is in immediate vicinity.

    Bingo. There was a combined effort by Boles and Mosaic to not disclose that Boles actions were predatory: Non-consensual molestation against married women in his own church that trusted him. The term ‘victims’ was never used. This was not just sexual abuse, it was spiritual abuse. Not just a crime, not just a civil tort, but also a sin against the office of pastor.

    So what does Mosaic do? They are so vague that the congregation is led to believe that it was “just an affair” which implies consensual on the other person’s part. This is a lie of omission. Mosaic’s primary interest was to do the minimum and move on. Protect themselves and the 501c3 corporation. This is not Christianity. The families are Mosaic are still not safe.

  54. refugee wrote:

    I don’t think he’s disparaging FPU, I think he’s being “cool” and casual in his language.

    Yes, that is probably true. I just think the timing of a move from a house that is up for sale to a rental is curious in light of what he says about it selling fast at the asking price. So, I thought perhaps the home might be owned by the church or a trust or something like that. Dave Ramsey definitely did not come up with the envelope system.

  55. Jessica wrote:

    There was a combined effort by Boles and Mosaic to not disclose that Boles actions were predatory:

    Absolutely! I’m listening to the maddening sermon right now when he left and they’re going over Matthew 18 as if it’s two people who had a little spat. Ugh.

  56. Jessica wrote:

    Mosaic’s primary interest was to do the minimum and move on.

    I am now to the part where the guy talks about how he’s flawed ‘just like Dustin’. It’s so painful to rebuke him! They just hate to be mean to poor not at all innocent Dustin. It’s sickening.

  57. dee wrote:

    Not a peep being heard from Acts 29.

    It really does seem like Acts29 is a franchise system and NAMB is the VC fund.

  58. @ Lea:

    Oh! And now they’re talking about how ‘all church discipline’ has to be carried out with the motive of restoration and reconciliation.

    They decided ‘based on matthew’ that they need to give ‘enough details that you know there isn’t a coverup when more details come out’????

    These people only care about Dustin, not anyone else, and it shines through in everything they say. So, so maddening.

  59. Gram3 wrote:

    So, I thought perhaps the home might be owned by the church or a trust or something like that.

    OH! I just remembered pastors get special tax breaks/money from the church specifically for housing if the church doesn’t own the house. So that probably has something to do with it. He doesn’t get those tax breaks anymore.

  60. Lea wrote:

    I am guessing they are selling the house also because of lost income? Or to consolidate debt? Or something.

    Unless somebody stops debt service on the “owned” house, then cash flow goes even more negative with an added rent payment. The housing envelope empties faster. That’s what I don’t understand in this picture. Not the only thing I don’t understand in this picture, but one of them.

  61. Lea wrote:

    I just remembered pastors get special tax breaks/money from the church specifically for housing if the church doesn’t own the house.

    OK, that makes sense. Obviously, tax breaks for housing has not been part of my personal experience. 🙂

  62. Gram3 wrote:

    Obviously, tax breaks for housing has not been part of my personal experience

    Well, not for me either, but my new church actually told us how much of each ministers salary was dedicated to housing! Aside from knowing sometimes churches had houses (Capitol Hill Baptist has a row of pretty little townhouses for instance that iirc the church owns) I never thought about it.

  63. Jessica wrote:

    Bingo. There was a combined effort by Boles and Mosaic to not disclose that Boles actions were predatory: Non-consensual molestation against married women in his own church that trusted him. The term ‘victims’ was never used. This was not just sexual abuse, it was spiritual abuse. Not just a crime, not just a civil tort, but also a sin against the office of pastor.

    Good point. It is one thing if it is and affair where one can at least claim that the affair was consensual though just like with a boss with an employee a pastor with a member is questionable just how consensual it is.

    Molesting other men’s wives with out their consent (like under the table) is a lot harder to construe as being consensual.

  64. Steve240 wrote:

    Molesting other men’s wives with out their consent (like under the table) is a lot harder to construe as being consensual.

    And they helpfully let Dustin end the service with his rambling thoughts about how he totally wasn’t let go blahblahblah but the victims didn’t get a similar opportunity. Very unbalanced.

  65. Lea wrote:

    OH! I just remembered pastors get special tax breaks/money from the church specifically for housing if the church doesn’t own the house. So that probably has something to do with it. He doesn’t get those tax breaks anymore.

    I studied this tax break a while ago. As I recall pastors can receive a certain percentage of their income tax free and use that for housing costs. I believe this would include mortgage/rent, utilities, maintenance etc. At the same time I believe they could deduct their home mortgage interest expense. Thus with Boles no longer being a pastor he won’t have this ability to receive tax free income for his housing.

    Maybe the loss of this tax deduction and possibly a reduced income forced Boles to have to sell his house.

    Thus with this tax break pastors can actually really make more in income than what their salary indicates. I am sure this tax break encourages pastors to buy larger houses since they can develop equity tax free though I am not a tax expert.

  66. @ Jessica:
    Totally agree. It is a quid pro quo for church pastors. Ramsey gets a captive audience influenced by star pastor, a free seminar venue and profit on materials. Churches get guilty tithers even if they owe the guy on another pew. A real Christian pays the church before their creditors, don’tcha know.

    Sad truth. There is no “tithe” in the NT. Yes, there are offerings but Paul was mainly concerned for the persecuted Christians of Jerusalem. Not making the pastors high salary.

  67. @ Lea:

    “And there is nothing in it that someone who has read a few personal finance books could not come up with and teach the church for free, so it’s irritating to see them bilking people out of money for it.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    here’s what bugs me: i have no doubt that someone, somewhere is calling it “Gospel-centered finances”.

    a feel a business plan coming on….

    1. I call myself a christian
    2. find some generic sound practices
    3. add some christianese language to them
    4. call them ‘Gospel-Centered Practices’
    5. i now have my product
    5. attract a following (‘gospel-centered’ is like sugar to ants, light to moths, poop to flies)
    6. i now have the beginnings of a customer base
    7. i’m a business owner!

  68. Lydia wrote:

    Sad truth. There is no “tithe” in the NT. Yes, there are offerings but Paul was mainly concerned for the persecuted Christians of Jerusalem. Not making the pastors high salary.

    All good pastors know when and how to use the OT when it comes to money and women . . .

  69. Lea wrote:

    OH! I just remembered pastors get special tax breaks/money from the church specifically for housing if the church doesn’t own the house. So that probably has something to do with it. He doesn’t get those tax breaks anymore.

    Most churches give their pastors “housing allowances” and cover part or all of the families insurance. That is gone now, too!

  70. Lydia wrote:

    Yes, there are offerings but Paul was mainly concerned for the persecuted Christians of Jerusalem. Not making the pastors high salary.

    According to the Mosaic guy, the teaching pastor is more highly esteemed of the elders (twice as esteemed?) which translates to money.

  71. Jessica wrote:

    So what does Mosaic do? They are so vague that the congregation is led to believe that it was “just an affair” which implies consensual on the other person’s part. This is a lie of omission. Mosaic’s primary interest was to do the minimum and move on. Protect themselves and the 501c3 corporation.

    Well, as Dustin said in his email to the staff:

    “it looks like the way you guys have kept the church on task is just incredible.”

    I guess taking care of the victims isn’t part of the church’s “task.”

  72. siteseer wrote:

    I guess taking care of the victims isn’t part of the church’s “task.”

    Shut down victims. Protect the business!

  73. Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Yes, there are offerings but Paul was mainly concerned for the persecuted Christians of Jerusalem. Not making the pastors high salary.
    According to the Mosaic guy, the teaching pastor is more highly esteemed of the elders (twice as esteemed?) which translates to money.

    Yes, they all think and teach “double honor” translates into double high salary.

  74. Bridget wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Sad truth. There is no “tithe” in the NT. Yes, there are offerings but Paul was mainly concerned for the persecuted Christians of Jerusalem. Not making the pastors high salary.
    All good pastors know when and how to use the OT when it comes to money and women . . .

    Except they always ignore Jael. :o)

  75. Lea wrote:

    I am now to the part where the guy talks about how he’s flawed ‘just like Dustin’.

    Is he groping women under the table, too?

  76. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    He may have told his former church staff that he expects to sell the house quickly for full listing price, but it sounds like wishful thinking to me. I’m starting to wonder if he’s underwater on the house and that’s why they decided to sell it.

    If he was underwater then doing a short sale (unless he has the extra $’s for the loss) would require bank approval.

    My guess is reduction in income as well as losing his clergy housing tax exemption is why he has to sell.

  77. Nancy2 wrote:

    Shut down victims. Protect the business!

    IIRC, Mosaic is building a facility, so that is looming on their financial horizon. I would like to be a butterfly on the wall in the meeting between the church elders and the folks financing said facility when they discuss this “situation.”

  78. Christiane wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    In case some readers weren’t aware, Dave Ramsey has a pattern of being interpersonally exploitive and bouts of uncontrolled anger. When a business partner severs a relationship with him over this, he has come back with a “scorched earth” response. Then he demands that his staff coverup and excuse his outbursts

    sounds criminal …. what is it lately that ‘leaders’ with ‘scorched earth’ vengeance against those who thwart them are seen as ‘strong’ and admired by people?

    this behavior is not ‘strong’, it’s juvenile and narcissistic

    And none of it is of Christ. This is just another ‘Evangelical’ scam. Alas, there are an awful lot of chumps out there.

  79. Bridget wrote:

    All good pastors know when and how to use the OT when it comes to money and women . . .

    Calvary Chapel pastors have refined it into an art form.

  80. I am not sure I may be projecting into this situation, but have noticed this thread in situations like where people can kind of subtly insinuate God is directly behind everything “good” or “beneficial” happening to them. It sends a subtle, yet damaging, crazy making false message about God and his opinion or concern about what has happened, and it serves to mess with victims further.

    The new jobs, the new place to live, etc. etc. The pronouncement of new paths and opportunities. The underlying theological assumption/message behind that is that God is providing for him, and in that sense we can infer that since God is providing for him, God is okay with him or blessing him in some way. And that can take many different layers – and be carried out in many different ways. So that ultimately, it invalidates the sin and the pain and harm done toward victims. It’s a diversion tactic, a pseudo or maybe not so pseudo type of prosperity gospel.

    Opportunity does not necessarily or maybe even often equal a reward for virtue nor does it act as a dismissal or a justified covering/reason for harm and abuse done. Or more deeply, it simply does not necessarily affirm God’s approval of your soul and heart in the matter. Opportunity sometimes comes because you are privileged or well connected, because you are male, because you are white, because you married to so and so, the son or daughter of he or she, because you are in a group/network that has a lot of money and insiders who can get you perks, and that’s it. Opportunity may say absolutely nothing about your character or ability one way or the other. Opportunity can be random or amoral – meaning, something just happened because of cause and effect. Opportunity can be given to you because you are compliant to something, an ideal, or task. Opportunities can happen more in some careers because there are high turnover rates, etc as opposed to more competitive fields/less openings in other fields. Sometimes opportunities ride in on the back of viciousness and deceit.

    The problem is, especially in power dynamics in abuse, the abused person, the victim, is often at first the one who loses everything. That’s why abuse is abuse, it effects everything, it steals and takes away from the person in profound ways – not just in their soul and body, but externally from relationships, jobs, finances, etc. Logically, the abused person is going to lose *something* because that’s the essence of abuse! It’s in effect, exactly what abuse does. The abuser receiving perks, jobs, or what have you, highlights the power dynamics that allowed or made room for the abuse to occur and then get covered up in the first place. So no, opportunity does not one way or the other tell anyone about whether or not the abuse took place, wasn’t “so bad”, or God is okay with it and everyone just move on. I am sensing that message and insinuation behind Dustin’s words.

    This stuff is heartbreaking because I see so many victims messed up by this, and depending on what happened case by case, it can take YEARS for them to pick up the pieces of what happened and really get on their feet again. This is while they are fighting to believe that God has not abandoned them. This can wreak havoc and crush someone’s soul. It’s extremely painful for them to watch their abuser/s “succeed” and go on and get perks and prestige as if nothing ever happened, especially if they are in the public eye. It is an even more evil layer and adding on to the invalidation they already have to deal with and overcome.

  81. siteseer wrote:

    Jessica wrote:

    So what does Mosaic do? They are so vague that the congregation is led to believe that it was “just an affair” which implies consensual on the other person’s part. This is a lie of omission. Mosaic’s primary interest was to do the minimum and move on. Protect themselves and the 501c3 corporation.

    Well, as Dustin said in his email to the staff:

    “it looks like the way you guys have kept the church on task is just incredible.”

    I guess taking care of the victims isn’t part of the church’s “task.”

    It is all about keeping the church going-ministers getting paid etc. The problem with the victims might hurt the cash flow and the church can not have that.

  82. Lea wrote:

    OH! I just remembered pastors get special tax breaks/money from the church specifically for housing if the church doesn’t own the house. So that probably has something to do with it. He doesn’t get those tax breaks anymore.

    It’s the parsonage allowance. To quote TurboTax: “Ministers can exclude from their income a rental allowance or the fair rental value of a parsonage that is provided to them as pay for their services. This exemption applies only for income tax purposes. The exclusion does not apply to self-employment taxes.”

    The parsonage allowance exclusion is currently being challenged in court (yet again) as a violation of the First Amendment. This may be dismissed due to lack of standing (a technical legal issue that doesn’t go to the actual legal question); I’m not sure exactly where it’s at in the process.

  83. I did a quick search and found that Dustin Boles’ yearly tax on the house he is listed as owner of is $3700. (The property itself is valued at $278K.) That’s nearly $310/month in property taxes alone. I don’t know about you, but for me, that’d be a deal-killer.

  84. Emily Honeycutt wrote:

    The problem is, especially in power dynamics in abuse, the abused person, the victim, is often at first the one who loses everything. That’s why abuse is abuse, it effects everything, it steals and takes away from the person in profound ways – not just in their soul and body, but externally from relationships, jobs, finances, etc. Logically, the abused person is going to lose *something* because that’s the essence of abuse!

    This and every single other word you wrote! The perp gets cared for and the victims get blamed. And the useful idiots in the church behave like useful idiots compounding the abuse of the victims.

  85. This makes me so sad. Are the victims pressing charges? I would press charges, sue (you could maybe sue the church if the assaults happened in the line of duty – not a lawyer, I’m just speculating) , get a restraining order, and then maybe get a transfer for the kids. This is just unacceptable and I’m so sorry the victims have the added pressure of living near their abuser. All the while I’m sure they’re being told, “Don’t worry, we’ll take care of it.” I am so sorry.

    As far as the housing allowance tax exemption…churches are typically small enough to get out of having to provide health insurance, and a lot of churches do not provide for retirement. Also, churches are one of the few places where you can be blatantly fired for your religious beliefs. For example, if we are okay with women giving mission reports, but enough people in the congregation are against it, we can be fired with no warning or severance. I don’t know all the ways it might violate the First Amendment, but a housing allowance is certainly one of the few perks regular small church preachers can enjoy.

  86. Sam wrote:

    Sexual predators in general enjoy torturing their victims which would explain their choice of move and school relocation. That way, their victims would constantly be living in a state of fear, waiting for the next attack, giving this man and his wife a sense of power and control.

    Which makes it all the more DELICIOUS.

  87. Gram3 wrote:

    This and every single other word you wrote! The perp gets cared for and the victims get blamed. And the useful idiots in the church behave like useful idiots compounding the abuse of the victims.

    Which is why I constantly kick myself for not being born a Narcissist and a Sociopath.
    Because THEY WIN.

  88. Emily Honeycutt wrote:

    So no, opportunity does not one way or the other tell anyone about whether or not the abuse took place, wasn’t “so bad”, or God is okay with it and everyone just move on. I am sensing that message and insinuation behind Dustin’s words.

    i.e. God is on the side of the abuser, SO THERE!

    (Another reason to kick myself for not being an abuser…)

  89. Emily Honeycutt wrote:

    The problem is, especially in power dynamics in abuse, the abused person, the victim, is often at first the one who loses everything. That’s why abuse is abuse, it effects everything, it steals and takes away from the person in profound ways – not just in their soul and body, but externally from relationships, jobs, finances, etc. Logically, the abused person is going to lose *something* because that’s the essence of abuse! It’s in effect, exactly what abuse does. The abuser receiving perks, jobs, or what have you, highlights the power dynamics that allowed or made room for the abuse to occur and then get covered up in the first place. So no, opportunity does not one way or the other tell anyone about whether or not the abuse took place, wasn’t “so bad”, or God is okay with it and everyone just move on. I am sensing that message and insinuation behind Dustin’s words.
    This stuff is heartbreaking because I see so many victims messed up by this, and depending on what happened case by case, it can take YEARS for them to pick up the pieces of what happened and really get on their feet again. This is while they are fighting to believe that God has not abandoned them. This can wreak havoc and crush someone’s soul. It’s extremely painful for them to watch their abuser/s “succeed” and go on and get perks and prestige as if nothing ever happened, especially if they are in the public eye. It is an even more evil layer and adding on to the invalidation they already have to deal with and overcome.

    Good description of the dynamics.

  90. Gram3 wrote:

    Emily Honeycutt wrote:
    The problem is, especially in power dynamics in abuse, the abused person, the victim, is often at first the one who loses everything. That’s why abuse is abuse, it effects everything, it steals and takes away from the person in profound ways – not just in their soul and body, but externally from relationships, jobs, finances, etc. Logically, the abused person is going to lose *something* because that’s the essence of abuse!
    This and every single other word you wrote! The perp gets cared for and the victims get blamed. And the useful idiots in the church behave like useful idiots compounding the abuse of the victims.

    Yes and some of those you term “useful idiots” are otherwise good people with a lot of cognitive dissonance who try to take a “neutral” stance. Being neutral sounds good at first until you realize it supports the status quo of a power imbalance that was abused! So it’s actually siding with the oppressor against the victim. The perp often ends up with more social support than the victims, creating another level of loss for them.

  91. Emily Honeycutt wrote:

    I am not sure I may be projecting into this situation, but have noticed this thread in situations like where people can kind of subtly insinuate God is directly behind everything “good” or “beneficial” happening to them. It sends a subtle, yet damaging, crazy making false message about God and his opinion or concern about what has happened, and it serves to mess with victims further.
    The new jobs, the new place to live, etc. etc. The pronouncement of new paths and opportunities. The underlying theological assumption/message behind that is that God is providing for him, and in that sense we can infer that since God is providing for him, God is okay with him or blessing him in some way. And that can take many different layers – and be carried out in many different ways. So that ultimately, it invalidates the sin and the pain and harm done toward victims. It’s a diversion tactic, a pseudo or maybe not so pseudo type of prosperity gospel.
    Opportunity does not necessarily or maybe even often equal a reward for virtue nor does it act as a dismissal or a justified covering/reason for harm and abuse done. Or more deeply, it simply does not necessarily affirm God’s approval of your soul and heart in the matter.

    A typical scenario (not this one, but many others where the pastor remains in power. One well-known example is Mark Driscoll in those years between the public bullying of his staff and the crumbling of the house of cards): But the church is growing! There are more people and more money in the collection plate! Therefore, “nothing happened.” God is blessing.

  92. Abi Miah wrote:

    The perp often ends up with more social support than the victims, creating another level of loss for them.

    Like I said above: THEY WIN.

  93. Did you notice that he mentioned eventually (like when?) setting up a ministry where money could be sent to help Pastors who will in his financial situation? So is he already thinking of a way to get money from people for himself in the near future? Ted Haggard tried a number of sneaky ways to do that and I don’t know how successful he was but he violated the agreed conditions he agreed to to get a large severance pay.

  94. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Preacher’s Wife:

    ” and a lot of churches do not provide for retirement”
    +++++++++++++

    nor do most employers any longer, it seems.

    well, for now at least there is Social Security and for too many, it’s the only thing between them and homelessness

  95. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Which is why I constantly kick myself for not being born a Narcissist and a Sociopath.
    Because THEY WIN.

    If being unable to experience love or connection is winning.

  96. siteseer wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Which is why I constantly kick myself for not being born a Narcissist and a Sociopath.
    Because THEY WIN.

    If being unable to experience love or connection is winning.

    They seem to get what they want out of it. The rest of us are left picking up the pieces.

  97. @ dee:
    I wasn’t joking when I said he was a psychopath. His letter is a big F U to his victims & former church.

  98. Lea wrote:

    They seem to get what they want out of it. The rest of us are left picking up the pieces.

    There’s no amount of money or power or influence that can buy you a conscience if you don’t have one.

  99. dee wrote:

    Not a peep being heard from Acts 29.

    Chandler is too busy flitting around the country speaking at conferences and firing up the Acts 29 crowd to plant more reformed churches. Fall is a busy period for his jaunts. He doesn’t have time to monitor or comment on individual Acts 29 church transgressions. They pretty much operate under no accountability system; the only oversight being local “elders” who are not elder in age or spiritual maturity. The Boles’ saga will fade quickly, as with Patrick.

  100. Bridget wrote:

    I am disgusted with men who make their millions in the name of Jesus.

    It’s called merchandising the gospel … which, of course, is not the Gospel at all.

  101. Gram3 wrote:

    OK, that makes sense. Obviously, tax breaks for housing has not been part of my personal experience. 🙂

    That’s because you’re just a pewpeon, not a Great ManaGAWD (all bow).

  102. Law Prof wrote:

    Dustin Boles, who was such an awesome expositor of the Scriptures that the ENEMY just had to TAKE POOR DUSTIN OUT).

    Haha! Totally misread this as “awesome exploiter”.

  103. Lea wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Oh! And now they’re talking about how ‘all church discipline’ has to be carried out with the motive of restoration and reconciliation.
    They decided ‘based on matthew’ that they need to give ‘enough details that you know there isn’t a coverup when more details come out’????
    These people only care about Dustin, not anyone else, and it shines through in everything they say. So, so maddening.

    Can you give a link for this sermon?

  104. @ mirele:

    This is no small benefit but it is a hugely guarded secret of the “ordained.” It has nothing to do with a “parsonage.” That was true of the small church I grew up in where the church owned a small house that our pastor and his family lived in. But today it’s different. Even Joel Osteen and Ed Young live in a “parsonage.”

    But here’s how it works.

    Today every “ordained” “minister” makes his house payment with pretax money. But that’s not all. He/she can buy a swimming pool, sofa, dining room table, lamp, bed, lawnmower, computer, paper clips, etc with the same pretax money. By the time April 15th rolls around there are no worries for the “ordained.”

    Can you imagine being able to do this for yourself?

    Very recently my wife and I visited a small church in our area. We’ve been on a long journey to find a place with no junk. We knew nothing about the pastor or his family. But we’ve learned from past experiences that it never hurts to start googling. It took a while but what we discovered (on the internet, he nor his wife ever told us this stuff) was that they lived in a $750,000 house. But the church had only about 40 people in it. We then found out the wife was a big-time lawyer. They had been at this church for four years. Two years ago they did a $150,000 upgrade to their house.

    I eventually had lunch with this pastor. He told me his wife worked and that the church didn’t pay him enough to support his family. We had also learned that the truth was he hadn’t worked anywhere for several years before landing this gig. I sat and listened to him paint this picture of himself as being a modern day Paul.

    Then I told him that I had been to the same seminary he had attended. I too was ordained. I had been on a large church staff until I saw that it was nothing but a business. I decided to return to practicing dentistry and pay my own way.

    Needless to say, the tone of the conversation changed. We stopped attending and he and his wife were quite content to never see us again. Why? Because I knew something that his little flock didn’t know. He was reaping quite a tax benefit from being their “shepherd.” You can do the math but there’s a sizable difference between making a $750 mortgage with pretax and after tax money. That new swimming pool they added two years ago came much cheaper than you or I could have added one too.

    We’re still trying to find a church. I have low expectations and 3 simple rules:
    1. Church is a business. You’re better off if you keep this in mind the second you walk through the door.
    2. Never leave your children alone with anyone in a church. Never. ANYONE.
    3. Never leave your spouse alone with anyone in a church. Never. ANYONE.

    Big thanks to Dee and Deb for keeping us so well-informed. By the way TWW is a true MINISTRY: helps people without a financial motivation.

  105. Darlene wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Oh! And now they’re talking about how ‘all church discipline’ has to be carried out with the motive of restoration and reconciliation.
    They decided ‘based on matthew’ that they need to give ‘enough details that you know there isn’t a coverup when more details come out’????
    These people only care about Dustin, not anyone else, and it shines through in everything they say. So, so maddening.

    Can you give a link for this sermon?

    http://subsplash.com/mosaicgc/v/4332228

    It was a chore to get through!

  106. Law Prof wrote:

    Dustin Boles, who was such an awesome expositor of the Scriptures that the ENEMY just had to TAKE POOR DUSTIN OUT

    Scripture notes that which comes against the church falls into three categories: the world, the flesh, and devil. The world and the flesh so easily crippled poor Dustin – why would the devil need to get involved?! The New Calvinism exposition I’ve heard wouldn’t scare the devil much any way.

  107. Steve wrote:

    @ mirele:

    This is no small benefit but it is a hugely guarded secret of the “ordained.” It has nothing to do with a “parsonage.” That was true of the small church I grew up in where the church owned a small house that our pastor and his family lived in. But today it’s different. Even Joel Osteen and Ed Young live in a “parsonage.”

    Don’t forget Steven Furtick’s Parsonage(TM).

  108. Lydia wrote:

    It is a quid pro quo for church pastors. Ramsey gets a captive audience influenced by star pastor, a free seminar venue and profit on materials. Churches get guilty tithers even if they owe the guy on another pew. A real Christian pays the church before their creditors, don’tcha know.

    And pastors get very very rich off the skim.

  109. Steve wrote:

    We’re still trying to find a church. I have low expectations and 3 simple rules:
    1. Church is a business. You’re better off if you keep this in mind the second you walk through the door.

    Yep.
    I just wrote a blog yesterday on this subject. “Mosaic Church Just Another Big Business.”

    https://thouarttheman.org/2016/09/15/4683/

    Many people realize this, they are the ones leaving the “Ministry Industrial Complex.”

  110. siteseer wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Which is why I constantly kick myself for not being born a Narcissist and a Sociopath.
    Because THEY WIN.

    If being unable to experience love or connection is winning.

    Who needs that when you have POWER and followers constantly sucking up to you and praising you?

  111. Although this is truly irrelevant to the victimization which ought to be our focus, due to the fact that there have been several posts regarding clergy and tax laws I can no longer remain silent. I am clergy and have been for 20 years; therefore, I have had a lot of first-hand experience dealing with clergy tax laws. Frankly, many of you are overlooking one HUGE detail: we are considered self-employed. Churches do not pay withholding. In other words, we pay quarterly estimated payments just like every other self-employed person. BUT WAIT! THERE’S MORE! Unlike every other self-employed person, tax laws DO NOT consider us self-employed as far as income tax is concerned. What does that mean? We are required to pay the full SE tax without being allowed to deduct expenses to do our job (the cars we wear out, vestments, books, etc.)as any other self-employed person would be allowed. To offset the unfairness of the burden this causes, the tax laws do allow us to set aside some salary for housing expenses pre-taxed. Despite this exception, most clergy are far from living “high-off-the-hog” and are comparatively grossly underpaid for their level of education and experience. Despite what some would like to believe, there is nothing freeing for clergy about April 15th; in fact, most clergy truly dread April 15th – along with January 15, June 15 and September 15. It is the very rare exception where someone goes into ministry for the money; if they do they are sadly deceived.