The Allegations Against Dustin Boles Former Pastor of the Acts 29 Affiliated Mosaic Church.

“I believe that sexual offenders and predators should be released…as long as it is mandatory they get to move into the house next door to the judge that released them.” ― Heather Chapple, Write like no one is reading link

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Mosaic

Note to attorneys: All of the stories that are discussed in this post have not been tried in court. However, some reports have been given to the local District Attorney so maybe that will change. TWW is simply relaying the allegations of the victims. However, as is the case at TWW, we only print stories that we believe to be true. Our hearts go out to the brave victims and their family who have put up with much pain in coming forward with their stories. You are all wonderful. May God give you all strength in the days ahead. We are here for you.


The more we dig the more we find. A couple of weeks ago, I received a call from a individual whose name will be protected. He asked me if I had heard anything about the resignation of the lead pastor, Dustin Boles, from the Mosaic Church Gulf Coast, which is in Ocean Springs, Mississippi. . The church membership was reportedly told that this was a simple case of marital infidelity. However, he had learned that Boles had been rubbing women's legs and laps under tables, without their consent, during Bible studies!

Amy Smith or Watch Keep and TWW team up, once again, to expose the Dustin Boles/Mosaic Church situation.

The two of us set to work to discover what was going on. Things broke wide open last week when Kevin Kaminky, the husband of one of the women who was allegedly assaulted, contacted Amy when he saw one of her tweets asking about the Boles situation. Also, she noticed this other tweet and we knew something bad probably happened.

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Within a couple of days, we felt like we understood the general flow of the alleged events. Nonetheless, as you will see, things are developing from moment to moment and we will update the story as it goes along.

Both of us had opportunities to talk with Kevin Kaminky who is allowing us to use his name. He has also provided the screen shots, etc. Amy has now spoken to another victim and will be assisting her in reporting the attack to the authorities. We have spread the word that both Watch Keep and TWW will print and stories of the victims, if they wish.

Overview 

Boles started a church in Keller Texas which closed as few years later.

Boles received his Masters of Divinity from Liberty University. He also served in the Air Force. Here is link to his Facebook page. He then started Harbor Family life Church in Keller, Texas. Why did this church close? 

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Are there victims in Texas? 

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2. He reportedly worked for a short time at The Met Church while setting up The Mosaic Church model.

I wonder if there were any reports of odd behavior on the part of Boles when he was at The Met. The Mosaic Church has a moral obligation to ask.

3. Boles' Mosaic Church met with success according to the local media.

WLOX posted A different kind of church grows rapidly in 2010, about two years after the church was founded. Here are a couple of quotes.

 In anyone's book, Mosaic Church is a religious success story. The church began a little more than two years ago with just 19 people on board. Now it has more than 1400 members. 

…"Well, we're real laid back here," Toth said. "We just preach the bible, we preach Genesis to Revelations, and we have a great pastor that really brings it to us this day and age.  I just really like it, like the music." Speaking of the music, the church band brings down the house every Sunday, and brings up the hearts of those listening. 

…But perhaps the most important things about Mosaic Church is something that comes from the heart, according to Pastor Boles.  "It would break my heart for somebody to come into our church and feel unwelcome.  That would kill me." 

Amy Smith attempted to contact WLOX via Twitter regarding the Boles' allegations. She asked a couple of questions and they blocked her which we found rather interesting. We both wonder what sort of relationship the reporters at WLOX have to the local churches. People are quite friendly with one another in small towns in the South. Ocean Springs has a population of @17,500

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4. Boles resigned from Mosaic Church this summer, perhaps in early July. (Does anyone have an exact date?)

Prior to this resignation, he posted the following comment on Facebook. I find the final sentence a bit ironic, considering the allegations that would become public.

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5. Prior to Boles' resignation, Kevin Kaminky allegedly witnessed Boles rubbing the leg of one woman at a gathering of church friends. He would then learn that his wife was suggestively rubbed on her leg and her lap, under a table at the same party.

At the end of this post, you will read Rachel Kaminky's brave recounting of the evening she was assaulted by Boles. It is important to realize that the Kaminky's were long-time, close friends of the Boles family. For example, they would go out to eat together about twice a month. Suddenly, after the alleged assault, that changed. The Kaminkys obviously feel betrayed by their friends. Kevin would eventually confront him but Boles blew him off, telling him that this was *no big deal.*

There have been other allegations regarding Boles' behavior with women in bars/casinos in the area. I was told that the church leadership was aware of these allegations and addressed them with him at some earlier date.

6. Is Boles' wife involved in enabling her husband to continue in this behavior?

In Rachel Kaminky's post which is copied at the end of this report, you will see how Boles' wife appeared to attempt to distract Kaminky from her husband's behavior. Her behavior is concerning. Is she involved as an enabler?

7. Kaminky said that he is aware of two other women who were allegedly assaulted by Boles. One allegedly had a full sexual encounter with Boles.

Kaminky and his wife have reported their incident to the DA. Apparently, two other women will (or have) done so as well. So this story is only beginning.

8. Boles allegedly read his written resignation before the church. He was vague about what exactly occurred, seemingly alluding to an affair.

Kaminky was allegedly told by a church leader that someone, outside the church, had donated a generous sum of cash to keep the Boles afloat due to the loss of income. I find this statement odd. Where did the money really come from?

Kaminky said that Boles was allegedly told that as long as he stayed out of the pastorate for 3 years, then there would not be any *repercussions.* As far as Kaminky knows, the church leadership did not report Boles' behavior to any authority outside of the church.

9. Boles began a job with Alvix Labs in August

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This raises a question. How did he get a job with no medical or business/sales background so quickly?  

10. Dustin Boles attacked Rachel Kaminky  on Facebook, saying that she assaulted him in an Uber car.

The *she* in the comment is Rachel Kaminky. I bet the truth of this could be tracked down by tracking down the Uber driver but I bet that won't happen… These Facebook comments have been deleted.

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11. His wife also attacked Rachel on Facebook.

I apologize for the blurriness of the comment but it is the clearest it can get.

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12. The Boles have allegedly just bought a house a couple of doors down from one of his victims!

Kevin Kaminky just learned about this today. Unbelievable! They are selling their current house in order to buy this house. The victim has been in touch with Amy Smith and we will post updates on this story ASAP. Apparently Natalie Boles has also accepted a job in the school system as a teacher. 

13. Here are further Facebook comments written by Boles. File under *poor me.*

It is important to understand the sequence of events. Kevin's wife did not tell him about the assault until the next morning. She told him after he mentioned seeing Boles rubbing another woman's leg. She was so embarrassed and humiliated that Boles, who was a long time family friend, would do this. I reassured  them that this was a normal response by a woman who has been assaulted by a friend, especially one who is a pastor who they had trusted.

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14. Boles recently alerted his former friends that he received an offer to undergo restoration and counseling at the Oasis Church.

Knowing that predators often lie, Amy and I contacted Oasis Church. The lead pastor, Eric Camp, had this to say when I asked him if he knew of the allegations against Boles.

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I proceeded to caution him about Boles and his background. He then replied:

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16. Mosaic Church is part of the Acts 29 network of churches. What a shock…

The Mosaic Church's leadership was silent about the extent of the allegations against Dustin Boles. We are sure that Matt Chandler and Acts 29 will not breathe a word either. Once again, complementarian churches FAIL to prevent abuse even though they keep telling us that complementarianism is the only way to prevent abuse.

17. Mosaic Church has a moral obligation to ascertain if there are any other victims of Dustin Boles.

If these allegations prove to be true, and I believe that they will be, there are probably more victims. The church should reach out to all who attended the church. His alleged actions that lead me to believe that he grooms his victims over a period of time. He probably tests them to ascertain how far he can go with them. He starts by first touching them inappropriately. Such behavior then escalates. It has been alleged that he had at least one sexual encounter with a church member. Could there be more?

Most predators have assaulted a number of victims by the time they are caught. So, it is not inconceivable that there are many more victims. If the church does not attempt to reach out in this situation, then they could be in trouble as more victims come forward. Also, it is possible that there could have been underage teenage girls who have been approached. (I have contacted Mosaic Church for a statement but have not hears from them.)

Mosaic Church,Acts 29 and Matt Chandler:  Do The Right Thing! Think About The Victims!


Here is the post by Rachel Kaminky.  Rachel, we believe you and you are in our prayers. Please let us know if we can help you or any other victims.

Me Too

Thursday, July 21, 2016

"Me Too" has been a common phrase we use at church. I've always loved the phrase because we all suffer from sin. We all have our own personal demons that we struggle with. "You cuss? Me too!"  "You struggle with a gross addiction to nicotine? Me too!" The list goes on. It's helpful, right? We're not alone in our sin. But more recently, I've seen the phrase been used in regards to our Pastor and his "confession" that led to his resignation. When I see the phrase used in this case, I am overwhelmed with hurt and anger because I don't know if people would be saying, "me too" if they knew the truth. Our congregation deserves to know the truth. And after weeks of silence, I want to share it. 

I have spent hours praying and talking with friends on how to handle this situation. When you're sexually assaulted by a dear friend and Pastor, how do you go about handling it? I don't have the answer to that. All I know is that trying to heal from something that my predator has yet to acknowledge is very difficult. Trying to heal from something so horrific to only see people in his corner because they don't know the truth is maddening. How does one heal after being sexually assaulted by a dear friend and Pastor? Anyone?

As my Pastor has said in his recent FB post, good friends were apart of his sexual sin. What he fails to mention is that we are victims of his sexual sin. I loved him as my friend, Pastor, he called us family. I considered him my family. I trusted him, my husband trusted him and my children trusted him.

Like many evenings, one particular evening was spent with said couple. I started this evening like any evening spent with them — Lightheartedly. It turned into an evening that is one of the most traumatizing of my life. My Pastor and dear friend sexually assaulted me. He forced his will on me, under the table, while our good friends and my husband sat feet away. When he started, I sat like a statue, unable to react, speak, think. I wanted it to go away. I didn't want to believe my dear friend and Pastor was capable of this. I was numb and heartbroken. My friend who was sitting across the table saw what was happening. We both kept quiet, we both pretended it wasn't happening. We both wanted to protect our good friend and Pastor.

The sexual assault didn't end there. It continued throughout the evening. My only thought was, "I can't let my husband see this, he will kill him." But I had no intentions of ever telling anyone, at this point I wanted to protect my friend and the thousands of people who believe in him. The thousands of people who attend our church to hear him speak. HOW can this be happening? I'm being sexually assaulted by a man that thousands look up to. I continued to endure the sexual assault and did my best to keep everyone's attention elsewhere. "Don't look down, don't look down, don't look down. I'll keep talking about nonsense so they don't look down."

Eventually, it was the end of the night and my husband abruptly whispered to me, ”We are leaving, NOW." We walked to his truck as said couple followed us out. My husband sat in the driver's seat, I'm in the passenger and my children in the back. His wife was at Kevin's window and my Pastor was at mine. She distracted Kevin so my Pastor could continue his sexual assault on me. He reached into my husband's truck and continued to touch me while she kept my husband's attention. Meanwhile, my innocent children were in the back seat and that realization is physically painful, thinking back. What if they saw their Pastor's hand in my lap? I tear up thinking about it. With that, I have a very hard time believing his wife didn’t see what was happening. In fact, I whole heartedly believe she saw after hearing a confession from another victim. Again, I sat in silence. I thought if I ever told my husband, he would kill him. I just wanted it to go away.

On the drive home, Kevin shared with me why we needed to leave immediately. He saw our Pastor touching my friend's leg in the hot tub. My husband was sick about it, I sat it shock now realizing I'm not the only one. I confessed to my husband what happened, we spoke with the other victim that eventually turned into victims and the rest followed.

I am so fearful to share this. Fearful that people who don't believe me will do ugly things that will indirectly affect my children. I'm afraid to come across as vengeful. I'm afraid my predator will come after me in some way once he finds out I've told everyone. But the truth is, I live in fear every day since this happened. I live with a heavy heart, I live in pain. Because of one man's selfishness, he's affected so many aspects of my life. My life is already lived in fear/sadness/anger, so why not share the truth? People deserve to know.

I believe everything our Pastor said at the pulpit. I believe every word. My faith has not changed, Jesus is King. Jesus will heal me. He has never left me. Where was Jesus when my Pastor was touching me? I'm still having a hard time with that. Our Pastor was capable of doing this and getting up the next day and speaking God's Word. I can't wrap my head around that. My heart aches for everyone, but not for our Pastor. My heart aches for my children who have had to witness a broken mother. My heart aches for the other victims. My heart aches for the congregation. My heart aches for the church as a whole. My heart just aches.

I struggle with knowing if this is an appropriate thing to speak publicly about. I've stayed silent out of fear but I don't want fear to control me anymore. I allowed fear to control me that night and allowed a man to touch me only where my husband has, something I still don't understand and hate myself for. 

Weeks after this happened, I am left with feelings as though it was yesterday. My heart physically hurts. When I hear of different things being said, I am sucker punched all over again. The truth not being told is continual torture for myself and the other victims. I hope my post helps the other victims come forward because what happened to me pales in comparison to what has happened to them. And I hope sharing this painful experience will protect women. I feel responsible to protect potential victims from this.

I do believe in our common phrase as a church, "Me too." I believe in supporting others through their sin because we are all sinners. But I ask of those who are full supporters and will continue to be full supporters of our Pastor, remember the women and husbands of the women he has victimized. Please remember the daily struggle it's been for us. There will be years of healing for us. 

And for those who may hurt as I am right now after reading this, I want to apologize to you. I am sorry you're hurting. If you're hurting, I'm right there with you. Me too. 

Comments

The Allegations Against Dustin Boles Former Pastor of the Acts 29 Affiliated Mosaic Church. — 427 Comments

  1. Another sickening example of portraying victims as co-sinners while magically making them look like lying slatterns for coming forward. Thank you, Deebs, for bringing this to light.

  2. W/ to your opening quote: especially if the judge has small children, or grandchildren living with him/her!

  3. Boles’ wife seems to be in a lot of denial. If they have minor children, there is possibility that those children have or are in danger of abuse as well. This is a child endangerment issue.

    I hope social services and the courts intervene.

  4. Dear Rachel Kaminky,
    I was horrified to read your account of what happened to you. You are a precious innocent IMO. I totally understand why you froze & why you reacted the way you did. Some of us were trained not to touch God’s anointed or question them. My prayers have been with you since I first heard of this. I am grateful that you stepped out of your comfort zone to tell your side of this awful story. I hope you hang in there & find comfort in the numbers of people who believe & support you. Abusers are slick, they lie, but there is a army of ppl who have been hurt, ruined by these wolves in sheep’s clothing who will stand with you in love & prayer.

    “As far as Kaminky knows, the church leadership did not report Boles’ behavior to any authority outside of the church.” Of course the church didn’t report Boles’ behavior to the authority’s.”

    That seems to be the standing operating procedure of churches who care more for their P.R. & image than they care for the least of these, the broken, bruised & bleeding hearts. Makes me so mad I could spit. You are cared for Rachel, I believe you. May our tender Lord mend your wounded heart.

  5. I saw the Twitter exchange about the church in Keller, and found this:

    https://gotoplaces.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/dustin-boles/

    “Q. PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT THE CHURCH AND HOW IT CAME TO BE.
    A. Post Katrina, we found that about 180,000 people on the Coast did not have a church home and that there were few if any new churches here. That was it for us. I knew we had to come here.”

    I would believe that it was an entrepreneurial opportunity as he said. Especially if he had hooked up with church planters from the very nearby Village Church.

    Personal opinion: I think this is what Max calls the “our girls” mentality in action.

  6. Thank-You Dee & Amy & all the male bloggers for the time you spend researching & covering the atrocious crimes of DV, CSA, SA that goes on in churches and not unreported by the media, especially those, in the so called Christian media. You gals are running a underground railroad for people who have been seriously harmed by the money making religious schemers. May the Lord bless you & keep you.

  7. Gail wrote:

    Thank-You Dee & Amy & all the male bloggers for the time you spend researching & covering the atrocious crimes of DV, CSA, SA that goes on in churches and not unreported by the media, especially those, in the so called Christian media. You gals are running a underground railroad for people who have been seriously harmed by the money making religious schemers. May the Lord bless you & keep you.

    Amen to everything Gail wrote.

  8. I don’t post a lot here, there are so many articulate commenters that say what I might say, only so much better. That said, I lurk. I am headed to bed now. I hope when I rise, I will read the many voices, who I appreciate more than words can say, your support for Rachel Kaminky and other victims. How brave they were to tell their stories. Nite-nite.

  9. To all of the ladies out there: If a man (even a “pastor”) touches you beneath the table, it’s okay to tell him not to touch you again — out loud, no matter who is within earshot. If the man pays you no mind and touches you again, it’s okay to pour hot coffee or iced tea in his lap, or to stick a fork in his hand …… or his leg ……. or pretty much his anywhere.

  10. You know what angers me about all this? All the crap about sexual sin, what is said about gays and gay marriage, the way people are slammed if they sleep with their girlfriend/boyfriend, etc… THEN you have sexual assault, rape, child sex abuse, etc.. given a pass? As they say in the military…WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!!

  11. Too bad Boles and his wife did not coordinate their stories before going public.

    His wife says about her husband the pastor, “Dustin acknowledges he sinned…” And that he is getting counseling.
    While he says, “I assaulted no one at any point.”

    If he did not assault anyone, for what sin, then, is he supposedly getting counseling for?

  12. OP said:

    6. Is Boles’ wife involved in enabling her husband to continue in this behavior?

    In Rachel Kaminky’s post which is copied at the end of this report, you will see how Boles’ wife appeared to attempt to distract Kaminky from her husband’s behavior. Her behavior is concerning. Is she involved as an enabler?

    I don’t mean to be gross or crass here, but.

    Some married couples are into this, because they find it kinky and they enjoy it.

    On a group for ex-Christians and disaffected Christians, they posted a news story about a year ago (or longer) about a guy who worked as a preacher. (I cannot remember the name of the preacher or the church.)

    The preacher would invite young men from his church to his home and then try to get the men to give his wife massages.

    The wife would be laying on a table under a towel with little or no clothing on. The preacher would say something to the guy like his wife’s back hurt or whatever, and he would try to get these guys to touch his wife. Some did (not that they wanted to, but they didn’t know how to say no).

    One guy in the report said that the preacher grabbed his hands as he rubbed the wife’s back and guided his hands towards some of the wife’s private areas. The guy got really uncomfortable and tried to leave.

    My point is that some married couples get some kind of kinky turn on by watching their spouses fool around with other people.

    Maybe Dustin B. and his wife have this same fetish.

  13. Stan wrote:

    I saw the Twitter exchange about the church in Keller, and found this:

    https://gotoplaces.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/dustin-boles/

    Wow, it sounds like such a great place, like what so many people long for. I can only imagine the devastation to find it isn’t what it seemed to be. I can also imagine how those who have no idea about what happened might feel angry that something disrupted this and might lash out. What a sad situation.

    I really wonder if Boles’ wife has been confronted with situations like this before. He may have had very convincing sounding explanations. She may have felt protective of him and like others were out to get him.

  14. The OP:

    Also, it is possible that there could have been underage teenage girls who have been approached. (I have contacted Mosaic Church for a statement but have not hears from them.)

    I’m pretty certain the OP also said Boles’ wife has a new job as a school teacher in their new neighborhood?

    Especially if she and he are into this kinky stuff (of enjoying each other fondle people), I am afraid if she plans to bring teens or other young kids from her school to her house, so her husband can assault them.

    If I was a parent, I would not want my kids around her or her spouse. At all. (Well heck, I am not a parent, and I still don’t want anyone’s kids around these two.)

    I hate to think the worst, but I guess I’m into “better safe than sorry,” concerning things like this.

  15. Nancy2 wrote:

    To all of the ladies out there: If a man (even a “pastor”) touches you beneath the table, it’s okay to tell him not to touch you again — out loud, no matter who is within earshot. If the man pays you no mind and touches you again, it’s okay to pour hot coffee or iced tea in his lap, or to stick a fork in his hand …… or his leg ……. or pretty much his anywhere.

    Preach it.

  16. Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    You know what angers me about all this? All the crap about sexual sin, what is said about gays and gay marriage, the way people are slammed if they sleep with their girlfriend/boyfriend, etc… THEN you have sexual assault, rape, child sex abuse, etc.. given a pass? As they say in the military…WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!!

    Don’t forget with some of these churches, women not being submissive enough (emphasis on gender role teaching) is considered a big deal.

  17. Love the quote at the top!!

    I am sure it was impossible for the victims brains to immediately register that what was done WAS done by the same guy who spoke such Christiansen words from stage. He was counting on that.

  18. Daisy wrote:

    My point is that some married couples get some kind of kinky turn on by watching their spouses fool around with other people.

    Wow, just wow, creeeepy.

  19. If I’m understanding correctly, he admitted to a *consensual* sexual sin, so that is not actually a discrepancy in the story from Boles and his wife.

    Remnant wrote:

    Too bad Boles and his wife did not coordinate their stories before going public.
    His wife says about her husband the pastor, “Dustin acknowledges he sinned…” And that he is getting counseling.
    While he says, “I assaulted no one at any point.”
    If he did not assault anyone, for what sin, then, is he supposedly getting counseling for?

  20. To Rachel and other victims- I hear you and I believe you. You’re not alone, you’re not to blame, and may you find healing.

    I’d like to share something. Although this event I will mention did not happen with a pastor, it was with a licensed “Christian” therapist. I understand what it’s like to feel violated and not know how to process what happened.
    I had been working with a licensed, “Christian’ therapist (who was affiliated with a big name “Christian” psychiatrist) for some time. This therapist happened to be male, and he was my first experience working with a therapist. I was originally paired with him through a group session, and by all accounts he seemed like a good “fit.” He claimed to specialize in sexual matters. Addiction, porn, etc. Over the couple of years I worked with him, I shared a lot of personal things…

    I arrived one day to a regular session at his office. I sat down on his couch which was across from his desk. On his desk was his computer. We began typical pleasantries as we started the session. He swiveled his chair around to his computer with his back facing me. He proceeded to minimize computer screens. I couldn’t tell you what I was talking about at that moment, when all of a sudden after he minimized a screen, the one below it popped up. It was very clearly a hardcore pornographic picture.

    I wish I could tell y’all that I addressed the situation on the spot. But, no, I didn’t. I fumbled with my purse which was sitting on the floor and pretended like I didn’t see it. The tension was so palpable you could cut it with a knife. Did I get up and walk out? No. I stayed through the whole hour long session. I don’t know what I talked about. , I paid the $150 charge.

    It was only when I returned to my car that I began to process what just happened. I cried and cried. I shook. I felt dirty. I felt wrong for not handling it well. I called him from my parked car after about a half hour of sitting in the parking lot. I didn’t expect him to answer, thinking he’d have another client after me, but he answered. It was only then that I confronted him and told him i saw what was on his screen. He did not deny it, went on and on about still struggling himself blah blah blah. And he had the GALL to ask me to come back up to his office to discuss it.

    Thankful, I said no.

    My point is this – when assault happens, especially from one you trust and especially from one in leadership or ministry, it’s hard to believe. It’s hard to process and hard to wrap your mind around. And, it sometimes takes years to “get over.”

    I’m not fully over it, and this happened about 7 years ago. I do not trust male therapists, and I hesitate to ever see a “Christian” therapist again. In my mind, I never know if he intended me to see it to get a rise out of me, know my history and intimate sharings. Or, if it was an”accident” on his part. Maybe it was lunchtime porn viewing? Nonetheless, I felt violated and in so many ways, assaulted.

    I reported him to another therapist and he was reported properly to the state. He lost the ability to practice for awhile at least, and certainly couldn’t with women.

    It’s sad when a state organization can properly bring justice to assault much better than the church can..

  21. Remnant wrote:

    His wife says about her husband the pastor, “Dustin acknowledges he sinned…” And that he is getting counseling.
    While he says, “I assaulted no one at any point.”

    If he did not assault anyone, for what sin, then, is he supposedly getting counseling for?

    His facebook post “I sinned horribly but I assaulted no one” ?

    If he is saying that the victims were willing participants when they were not, isn’t this defamation?

  22. I’m thankful for Rachel and Kevin for their courage to come forward and confront the pervert pastor, knowing the trauma they’d have to re-live.
    I’m thankful that the Mosaic elders at least had the fortitude to confront Boles, look past his lies and coverups, and insist that he resign.
    I’m thankful that Boles did not seek an immediate return to the pulpit.

    However I’m still deeply troubled and concerned about many other things:
    I really have to wonder about Natalie’s knowledge and involvement in all this – how could you be married to a guy for 15+ years and never notice he likes to flirt and hit on married women? Very unlikely that the summer of 2016 was his first foray into this type of behavior.
    I fear that Boles will try to sneak back in to ‘ministry’ in a year or two.
    There are lots of inconsistencies in the stories told by each of the Boles and the Oasis pastor that make we wonder what else is being covered up. More than a simple “affair” for sure. If there are more victims, I hope they find the courage to come forward and help stop further abuse from this creep.

  23. Once again, complementarian churches FAIL to prevent abuse even though they keep telling us that complementarianism is the only way to prevent abuse.

    Well, this is probably the place where I tell you all about my picket of Wayne Grudem’s book signing at Phoenix Seminary this evening. I think I was successful in my goal of getting attention and I suspect Grudem now knows there’s a middle-aged woman who is unimpressed with his male supremacist theology.

    I went out with two signs: “Wayne Grudem Complementarianism doesn’t protect children from sexual abuse!” and “Wayne Grudem Complementarianism harms women and children.” I borrowed a particularly bright flashlight from my mother, as the signing was at 7 pm and sunset was at 6:37. The flashlight was absolutely necessary.

    So I went out there and stood at the curb cut to the parking garage. The Phoenix Seminary is located on Thomas Road off 44th St. It’s a mixed commercial-residential district. The seminary itself is on the fourth floor of a commercial building that also has other offices, while the seminary library is on the first floor. You can see the Phoenix Seminary logo in the lobby of the building from the sidewalk, and Phoenix Seminary is on two sides of the building at the top, as well as being the top tenant on the street sign. So they advertise their presence well.

    People were going in and out and they did notice me. I did learn one thing, when picketing near/at dark, I need to just stick to BIG BIG letters, like one foot high letters. I should have just gone with WAYNE GRUDEM NO. But lesson learned.

    One guy was NOT happy I was there. And I was in “give them no quarter mood.” He wanted to argue about a certain medical procedure and he was downright obsessed with it. He called me a secularist. He told me I didn’t believe the Bible because I refused to have a headship (some male over me). As I said, I give as good as I get and I did use a couple of swear words. You know, people can get unhappy about that, but this is the deal: I think it’s important for people like this guy to get it through their heads that unlike many of the women in their lives who defer to their authority and headship, there are some of us who will not defer simply because they have a Y chromosome.

    Two ladies came up and wanted to know what the signs were about. I had to tell them about complementarianism, and how it was a heresy and so on. *sigh* That was depressing.

    The security guy (older dude) came up and wanted to know why I was there. I explained I was on the sidewalk and was just letting people know about Grudem. He wandered off and I didn’t think anything more of it until right at 7 pm when a Phoenix PD cop drove into the entrance and through the parking lot. I waited for the cop to come talk to me, but s/he didn’t. I can’t help but think the timing of the drive-by was less than coincidental.

    By that time it was pretty close to full dark so I turned off my light (my arm hurt awfully from holding the flashlight at an angle over the sign so it was illuminated), went back to my vehicle and then drove 25 miles to my mother’s to return the flashlight. (Don’t worry, ]she lives in the same area where I live.) I sat with my brother and watched the last 45 minutes of “Jaws,” played with their dog and then went home.

    This is good practice for Thursday, when I show up in the late morning to chastise the Christian Legal Society for bringing Mark Driscoll in as a speaker. At least it will be broad daylight!

  24. Gail wrote:
    Thank-You Dee & Amy & all the male bloggers for the time you spend researching & covering the atrocious crimes of DV, CSA, SA that goes on in churches and not unreported by the media, especially those, in the so called Christian media. You gals are running a underground railroad for people who have been seriously harmed by the money making religious schemers. May the Lord bless you & keep you.
    Amen to everything Gail wrote.

    And me too. I couldn’t have worded it better Gail.

  25. mirele wrote:

    People were going in and out and they did notice me. I did learn one thing, when picketing near/at dark, I need to just stick to BIG BIG letters, like one foot high letters. I should have just gone with WAYNE GRUDEM NO. But lesson learned.

    They make glow in the dark paint. Maybe try some and see if it works?
    Keep going, girl. I wish some of us were close enough to accompany you!

    He told me I didn’t believe the Bible because I refused to have a headship (some male over me).

    Well, of course every dog, er woman, needs a master. I’m sure Phoenix has leash laws. Just kidding.
    The dude that said that — he should be muzzled and and taken to the pound. Not kidding.

  26. All too often the supporters are quick to minimize by implying it happened only once or twice, but once someone courageously goes public we also often find a trail of victims that have suffered silently over many years. In other cases those wishing a cover-up had the power to make life a living hell for the one or two that did come forward, thus making sure that no other victims made the same “mistake”.

    Kudos to Rachel for her courage. That she initially “wanted to protect our good friend and Pastor” is illuminating on how abusers take advantage of our good nature.

  27. ”Kaminky was allegedly told by a church leader that someone, outside the church, had donated a generous sum of cash to keep the Boles afloat due to the loss of income. I find this statement odd. Where did the money really come from?”

    “Kaminky said that Boles was allegedly told that as long as he stayed out of the pastorate for 3 years, then there would not be any *repercussions.* As far as Kaminky knows, the church leadership did not report Boles’ behavior to any authority outside of the church.”

    “There have been other allegations regarding Boles’ behavior with women in bars/casinos in the area. I was told that the church leadership was aware of these allegations and addressed them with him at some earlier date. ”
    .
    Dustin Boles has some very influential friends. He co-planted the seeker friendly, hipster The Creek Church in Ft Worth with his old church The Met where he worked for 11 years. They have many wealthy and influential people in that area. Boles also co-planted Veritas Church in Fayetteville, N C along with Matt Chandler’s TVC and other TVC plants. Highland Village is also a wealthy area in DFW. Matt C is a very influential leader in the Christian community who knows a lot other wealthy and influential people.
    .
    There are people outside of Mosaic Church who have something to lose if this situation ends up in court or drawing a lot of public scrutiny. It appears that the Mosaic Church Elders may have known that their head pastor was hanging out at casinos and bars and engaging in abusive behavior that would disqualify him as a pastor, yet they allowed him to remain Senior Pastor. This could potentially make them liable for any damages for having not removing Boles from the pulpit or at least warning the members once they found out he was acting inappropriately with women.

    Why three years? It seems fairly obvious. Three years is the standard statute of limitations for civil litigation. This means if the wronged party doesn’t file a lawsuit within three years of when the bad action occurred, then the plaintiffs permanently forfeit their right to sue.

    If these statements are accurate, then it looks like someone might be paying Dustin Boles off to not provoke the victims into suing Mosaic Church or the Mosaic Elders who kept him in the pulpit. Mosaic Churches Elders are not listed on the MC website. They may very well have some interesting names on there, considering that as a relatively young pastor Boles had already helped plant 4 churches in addition to working at The Met. Harbor Light in the Ft Worth area was a “biker friendly” church, so Boles appears to enjoy the bad boy scene. That picture of him posing in front of the erotic painting with his index finger in his mouth like a Playboy bunny also tells us what we need to know about his fitness to pastor.
    .
    When pastors leave the ministry after a moral fall, many Christians are satisfied with that outcome and leave it at that. Litigation is stressful. Christians are taught to forgive. But when victims see the wolves immediately returning to the pulpit they’re more likely to feel the need to “do something” to try to help prevent future victimization. That’s when you’re more likely to see the filing of criminal complaints or the filing of civil lawsuits.
    .
    If this is the case, then Mosaic is reprehensible for plotting this, because it sounds like they are fine with Dustin returning to the pulpit as soon as the statute of limitations has expired. Can you imagine how duped the victims will feel on that 1,096th day? They will feel played. I can’t imagine any other reason for the church setting an artificial time limit of 3 years.

  28. Mirele, you found the way to another one of my old stomping grounds down by what used to be Thomas Mall. The more you dig the more that you will find that is worth picketing. I am glad someone is taking the time to do it.

  29. I read Rachel’s blog post last week and was horrified for her. I’m glad she came forward to confront this creep. I suspect there are a lot of other victims who were afraid to come forward, but maybe Rachel’s courage will give them courage.

  30. Quick off-topic announcement. Jeannette Altes needs $340 in her GoFundMe account to help pay her monthly bills. She received one recent donation. Thanks everyone.

    *Jeannette Altes. She needs $440 in her gofundme account to pay monthly bills. She is being treated for a tumor, was laid off from her job, and is looking for work. She also needs help buying food. Thank you. https://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  31. Lydia wrote:

    Just more rotten fruit of Acts 29. What do we expect from that early Driscoll DNA?.

    The subjugation of women is one of the 5 core values of Acts 29 churches. When women are believed to be lesser beings, what kind of behavior can really be expected? We are not quite human anyway, so what’s the big deal?

  32. Did I read that correctly? Hot tub? What were they doing in a hot tub? Is this what the new ‘invite the pastor to dinner’ thing is? So the pastor is piled up in the hot tub with some woman/women but apparently not everybody was in the hot tub. Sheesh people. Is naivete the new normal? They can’t see this guy for what he is? So glad the Kaminkys came forward. But when Boles seems to be saying that other women in the church apparently welcomed his ‘touching’ I am inclined to believe it.

    I am thinking that predators may have a lot of co-conspirators.

  33. Nancy2 wrote:

    To all of the ladies out there: If a man (even a “pastor”) touches you beneath the table, it’s okay to tell him not to touch you again — out loud, no matter who is within earshot. If the man pays you no mind and touches you again, it’s okay to pour hot coffee or iced tea in his lap, or to stick a fork in his hand …… or his leg ……. or pretty much his anywhere.

    Amen Nancy!

    What an awful thing though. I get freezing. Was that an accident? Is this really happening? I’ve had those thoughts before.

    If you read his supposed letter to he church he talks about how now that he’s out of church he doesn’t have so much temptation. But everybody has gotten together to make stuff up at the same time. Obviously.

  34. siteseer wrote:

    Remnant wrote:

    His wife says about her husband the pastor, “Dustin acknowledges he sinned…” And that he is getting counseling.
    While he says, “I assaulted no one at any point.”

    If he did not assault anyone, for what sin, then, is he supposedly getting counseling for?

    His facebook post “I sinned horribly but I assaulted no one” ?

    If he is saying that the victims were willing participants when they were not, isn’t this defamation?

    I think he is saying he sinned with them probably willingly but he’s also calling them out for collaborating together as a friends on stories.

    Sounds like a tell to me!

  35. You’re sitting at the table with people you trust and respect. Someone (not your husband) starts touching you under the table. What do you do?

    I’ve thought about this. And YES, my husband would kill the perp. But I decided I would excuse myself to go to the ladies’ room and then I would go to the desk and call my husband on his cell and tell him I had become ill and needed to leave the restaurant and to make our excuses and come to the desk.

    Is there something about Acts 29 that makes victims freeze and act like deer in the headlight? All that ‘conditioning’ by the pastor and his crew has to produce a ‘response’ accordingly, unless someone’s own sense of survival as a person with dignity kicks in. I don’t criticize Rachel, as it sounds like she was in shock and also terrified by that first incident. But I’m asking, is the whole ‘male headship’ thing setting women up TO BE ABUSED and is it also a green light for pastors and their ‘friends’ to
    1. know that they are ‘saved’ by election and
    2. know that their ‘sin’ is not going to matter to their salvation???????

    What is the end product of any system that belittles and shames and puts down the dignity of persons?
    And is not a part of that end also the eventual destruction of those involved in putting down and belittling victims?

    I hope Boles is prosecuted and answers for what he did according to law. I hope the Kaminsky family recovers from the shock and pain of what happened, as they did not deserve or provoke the sick behavior of Boles.

    One final question:
    MRS. BOLES – was she ‘told’ by her husband that she had to obey him and enable his sickness as a part of her ‘submission’ to him as a husband???? Is her behavior as ‘enabler’ also a product of ‘male headship’ at its most corrupt?

    Or is she also just as sick as her husband.

    May God help the victims of this pervert, and may God help him to accept what he has done as both criminal and intensely harmful to the women involved. Sounds like he is not ‘there yet’ with his own understanding of his actions as wrong-doing. Wow.

  36. Uncle Dad wrote:

    My 34 year old niece has been missing since August 28.

    I’m so sorry to hear that, Uncle Dad. I can’t imagine what you and your family are going through. Just said a prayer for her, and for you.

  37. okrapod wrote:

    But when Boles seems to be saying that other women in the church apparently welcomed his ‘touching’ I am inclined to believe it.

    I am thinking that predators may have a lot of co-conspirators.

    I don’t know about co-conspirators, but maybe people educated so thoroughly that “pastor is always right” and “pastor knows best” that they can’t think straight. I’ve never been married, but I doubt the average married couple willingly gets themselves into a situation where one of them is being groped by a pastor. Absent any other evidence, in this situation, given how much pastors are put on a pedestal, I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

  38. One further comment:
    if Boles is saying that the women were ‘willing’, it could be because he fears being sued for his attacks on them

  39. It IS a mystery how abused people react to that abuse. Certainly, children and very young teenagers are confused and do not understand or know what to do,
    although many are brought up to fear predators …. but the ‘pastor’? of the Church??? Of course they are confused.

    For adults who have been conditioned to behave AS CHILDREN, allowing the ones ‘over them’ to call the shots, and meekly obeying;
    for these adults, the conditioning plus the ‘religious training’ that says God wants them to ‘submit’ to authority regardless of their own wishes …. all that would affect their response to abuse, yes.

    Knowing the horror of the kind of abuse that is out there among the ‘trusted’,
    what is the best defense for raising children to cope against attempts of perpetrators??? I do know that school systems are now actively trying to hold parent meetings to teach about the dangers of on-line predators of children.
    But what can the Church do? What can parents do? And the police? And the whole community that protects the children from harm? Change is needed, badly.

    For adult women …. that’s another story. And it’s just as bad.

  40. Daisy wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    To all of the ladies out there: If a man (even a “pastor”) touches you beneath the table, it’s okay to tell him not to touch you again — out loud, no matter who is within earshot. If the man pays you no mind and touches you again, it’s okay to pour hot coffee or iced tea in his lap, or to stick a fork in his hand …… or his leg ……. or pretty much his anywhere.

    Preach it.

    Go for it.
    When you get done with the jerk, he should have to ‘walk funny’ for a few weeks, and when you see this, it’s okay to smile. 🙂

  41. Christiane wrote:

    if Boles is saying that the women were ‘willing’, it could be because he fears being sued for his attacks on them

    He also could be delusional. Two of the sexual harassers I’ve had told me I only gave them signals that I “wanted it”. Signals like shouting “No”, telling them to leave me alone, avoiding them, pushing them away, having other people tell them to leave me alone…

    Delusional.

  42. mirele wrote:

    I don’t know about co-conspirators, but maybe people educated so thoroughly that “pastor is always right” and “pastor knows best” that they can’t think straight. I’ve never been married, but I doubt the average married couple willingly gets themselves into a situation where one of them is being groped by a pastor. Absent any other evidence, in this situation, given how much pastors are put on a pedestal, I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

    I am married. If my husband behaved the Boles is accused of behaving, you’d better bet I wouldn’t defend him.

    I don’t care what social/religious status a person has.
    A decent single man doesn’t get all touch feely with a woman who is married.
    A married man does not get all touchy feely with a single woman.
    A married man certainly does not get all touchy feely with a married woman who is married to another man.
    The same rules of decency apply to women.

    What is it that makes certain women so susceptible to these vultures? Could it have something to do with the “gospelly” issue of “male headship” and hierarchy within the churches?

  43. ishy wrote:

    He also could be delusional. Two of the sexual harassers I’ve had told me I only gave them signals that I “wanted it”. Signals like shouting “No”, telling them to leave me alone, avoiding them, pushing them away, having other people tell them to leave me alone…

    Delusional.

    I’m willing to buy into this reason, yes.

  44. Nancy2 wrote:

    What is it that makes certain women so susceptible to these vultures? Could it have something to do with the “gospelly” issue of “male headship” and hierarchy within the churches?

    It’s classic psychological ‘conditioning’ and it’s a part of the abuse, not just a precursor to the actual events we readily describe as ‘abuse’.

  45. okrapod wrote:

    So the pastor is piled up in the hot tub with some woman/women but apparently not everybody was in the hot tub. Sheesh people. Is naivete the new normal? They can’t see this guy for what he is? So glad the Kaminkys came forward. But when Boles seems to be saying that other women in the church apparently welcomed his ‘touching’ I am inclined to believe it.

    Okrapod, for the record – in my younger days, I ‘piled’ into hot tubs of friends on a fairly regular basis. I would hot tub with both guys and girls…sometimes on an individual basis, but NONE of the young men of my acquaintance ever touched me in an inappropriate way. (Maybe I was naive and it was only the grace of God that kept me protected, though I prefer to believe that men are capable of treating me as a human being.)
    Getting into a hot tub with someone does not equate to consent. And when you are with close friends, in proximity to someone you know and trust – your guard is down – you assume that you’re safe. That is precisely why this kind of betrayal of trust and violation is so abhorrent.
    I

  46. i am so sick of hearing about ministers like Boles, every time I turn around. It seems like it is an epidemic. I have never been sexually molested by anyone in my life. So I can’t understand the fear these ladies went thru when they were being molested. But I do agree with them, that it is totally wrong. It seems that these ministers get a “little” so called power and they feel free to do whatever they want to. Molesting women, having affairs, lying to the church and probably breaking a lot more of the 10 commandments. When I was a young child, we were friends with the minister of our church. His family had meals at our house on special occasions, as in our birthdays. But once we left that church, we were never again close to the minister and his wife at the new church, or have I ever been. Now I wander what my parents knew that I didn’t know about this pastor at the church of my young childhood.

  47. Nancy2 wrote:

    What is it that makes certain women so susceptible to these vultures? Could it have something to do with the “gospelly” issue of “male headship” and hierarchy within the churches?

    Christians tend to have a lot of trust in other Christians, especially clergy. Plus as somebody else pointed out, there is that childhood conditioning thing, especially for those who were raised in church from infancy. It’s an issue that has been covered on Homeschoolers Anonymous, especially in discussions on first time cheerful obedience as well as the Pearls’ teachings on training, not to mention the widespread influence of Gothard.

  48. When I was 22 years old and at a gyn exam the doctor rubbed his privates on my knee which was in the stirrups….I was SHOCKED and in disbelief. I pulled my knee away and pretended it hadn’t happened. Never when back to him again and always to a woman doc after that when I could.

    40 years later I would now knee him where it hurt.
    What a predator and I could not have been his first victim….
    Mothers, teach your daughters, and sons, not to take this crap from anyone.
    They also need to be taught not to trust everyone either.

  49. NJ wrote:

    Plus as somebody else pointed out, there is that childhood conditioning thing, especially for those who were raised in church from infancy. It’s an issue that has been covered on Homeschoolers Anonymous, especially in discussions on first time cheerful obedience as well as the Pearls’ teachings on training, not to mention the widespread influence of Gothard.

    I can imagine that would be a contributing factor, although we don’t know that it applies here.

    I think the first time she froze and maybe didn’t want to believe it was happening. After that, it sounded like she was afraid if she said something her husband would hurt him, and I can see that as concern for her husband. I think if you don’t want to make a scene (although you probably should just go ahead and do that – but if she had made a scene at first he would played it off as an ‘accident’ because that’s how these creepy people do it) you should probably just make your excuses. And when the husband did in fact make his excuses, they followed them to the car.

    This is why learning how to just be a little rude to people when necessary when helpful. I think the gift of fear talks about how women are so conditioned to be polite that they ignore things they shouldn’t or they don’t make a scene when they should. And church conditioning probably just adds more layers on top of that!

  50. Ok, now that I’ve calmed down after reading Rachel’s story, and quit fantasizing about what I would have liked to do to Mr. Boles if he had tried that with me (i.e. send him to the ER), what she is describing is shockingly brazen behavior. Especially the truck scene. That alone tells me this is nothing new for him, and there are almost certainly more victims.

    7. Kaminky said that he is aware of two other women who were allegedly assaulted by Boles. One allegedly had a full sexual encounter with Boles.

    I hope to God this wasn’t rape.

    As for Mrs. Boles, the first thing that comes to my mind is whether she is a homemaker or not. If she is, she may feel stuck with him. I’d like to think it’s something like that instead of her being a complete ***** who is just as sick as he is. I’m all for her getting her own career given his history, although I wish she’d pick something other than teaching kids.

    https://ericcamp.net/2016/06/08/a-word-to-all-oasis-church-family/

    Eric Camp in the above video sure is doing a lot of ” dancing” and playing the ” don’t gossip” line. Also attributes some as an “attack” of the enemy.

    He likes to try and say it is just a transition. He also seems quite desperate.

    I just followed this link and the video seems to have disappeared.

  51. Gail wrote:

    I will read the many voices, who I appreciate more than words can say, your support for Rachel Kaminky and other victims. How brave they were to tell their stories

    Well said.

  52. Lea wrote:

    This is why learning how to just be a little rude to people when necessary when helpful. I think the gift of fear talks about how women are so conditioned to be polite that they ignore things they shouldn’t or they don’t make a scene when they should. And church conditioning probably just adds more layers on top of that!

    I think you’re right, Lea.

  53. Daisy wrote:

    I’m pretty certain the OP also said Boles’ wife has a new job as a school teacher in their new neighborhood?

    Good point.

  54. “I have lost my career, my reputation, and a lot more” (Dustin Boles)

    Consequences! Publish it on all the watchblogs, shout it from the housetops, fly it across cyberspace, print it in every church bulletin across America!

    Church leaders, there are consequences to such behavior. What David did in secret, God exposed to all of Israel! Once you cross moral boundaries of sin – once you violate the trust of your church members – you are no longer a “pastor” … you are a transgressor of the holy standard expected of your position and subject to consequences. You are no longer counted worthy of your calling and are now thrown in the bucket with other sinners. You certainly can experience forgiveness on the other side of a godly sorrow that works repentance in your life … but you have forfeited your career, your reputation, and a lot more as a minister of the Gospel of Christ. You have left the abused and disillusioned in the wake of your sin. Was it worth it?

  55. @ Melissa:
    This is a comment that everyone should read. You did the right thing by not saying anything and getting out of the office prior to confronting him. he knew you were coming in at a particular time. I find it odd he kept that picture up until you were in his office. he could have asked you to wait a minute while he concealed the pics. I wonder if he was trying to see if you would go along with him. Could it have been some sort of grooming test? You got yourself safe! That is great.

    The only other thing you could have done is to stop payment on the check or ask your credit card company to remove the charges. The jerk didn’t deserve any money.

  56. What a heartbreaking and simultaneously infuriating story (again). When will this stop??? And by this, I am not only referring to the assaults, but also the cover-up, whitewashing and outright denial.

    In a related theme, especially to the call to A29, et al, to “do the right thing”, Mortification of Spin linked to an excellent blog post by Kyle Borg – “The Monster We Created: Councils, Brand Names, and Celebrities”. It is worth the read. http://gentlereformation.com/2016/09/12/the-monster-we-created-councils-brand-names-and-celebrities/

  57. These attacks are so not about ‘sex’ as much as they are about aggression and control and power over a victim. That BF&M 2K cutsey little phrase ‘the wife should graciously submit to her husband’ sets the stage for ‘grooming’ women into ‘obeying’ authority.

    Even now the ‘male headship’ folks are messing with Genesis in their newly written ESL alteration. So that it will look like God PRESCRIBED that women will submit to their husbands. These people will stop at nothing to further their agenda against women’s dignity as human persons, and the end results will always be just a lot of unhappy people and suffering victims. The control-freaks are self-destructive also, just look at the examples in recent months, Boles included.

    Neo-Calvinism is a sick system that can only be got into Churches by stealth and outright lies. People can either support it, or walk away from it.

    I’d say follow the ancient command: ‘choose life’
    and walk away from the darkness of male idolatry

  58. Max wrote:

    “I have lost my career, my reputation, and a lot more” (Dustin Boles)

    I think anytime one of these ‘fallen pastors’ whines about himself rather than the people he’s hurt, he is just proving that he’s not sorry at all.

    NJ wrote:

    Eric Camp in the above video sure is doing a lot of ” dancing” and playing the ” don’t gossip” line. Also attributes some as an “attack” of the enemy.

    I tried really hard to watch that video yesterday, but he was just rambling so much nonsense I had to turn it off. Hope somebody got a transcript! (I’m not clear if this was about Boles, or somebody else, though) It was full of the ‘worship your church leaders as if they are god’ advice these folks love so much.

  59. Christiane wrote:

    Is there something about Acts 29 that makes victims freeze and act like deer in the headlight? All that ‘conditioning’ by the pastor and his crew has to produce a ‘response’ accordingly, unless someone’s own sense of survival as a person with dignity kicks in.

    This is not an ‘Acts 29’ response to abuse. This is a normal response when abuse occurs. The perpetrator has groomed the victim on some level, and when they push further, the victim is confused and shocked and cannot react the same as if a stranger came up and groped them. The conditioning is the same with all sex abusers (not just pastors). The victim starts to question their perception to what happened – whether or not to accept any blame for the abuse. In most cases the victim has a close relationship with the abuser, which is really a double-bind situation.

    I am a CSA survivor. My pastor groomed me for years. I was a typical target – came from a chaotic and abusive home, was sexually abused as a child & teen, no father while growing up. I was married & had children when he abused me. I was a grown woman. However, I was not a HEALTHY woman. My prior abuse left me with little to no boundaries and very little ability to discern danger until it was too late (enter frog in boiling water analogy here). He knew all of this and used this knowledge to prey on me. He even admitted that he knew I was ‘sad’ and ‘had a bad childhood’ and felt sorry for me. Disgusting.

    A pastor who takes the sacred oath to preach, teach, guide & protect those under his care commits a gross & heinous sin when he crosses the boundaries HE is charged to maintain, and chooses to interact romantically with a congregant or even perhaps someone on the church staff. A pastor is almost always given implicit trust. He has a position of power in people’s lives unlike no other – because he is supposed to be a messenger of God. It is not unlike a counselor/client or teacher/student relationship. The imbalance of power means that the pastor commits ABUSE OF POWER when he chooses to pursue a congregant romantically. These pastors use the same language as all sexual abusers; “This will be our secret…”, “God really meant for US to be together.”, “You are my Bathsheba…”, “How can this be wrong when I feel this way about you. This must be God’s will.” “If you tell anyone they won’t believe you. I am the pastor, after all. They would never believe you over me.”

    Don’t fall for the lie that these pastors fall because some ‘Jezebel’ set their sights on him and in the end he just couldn’t resist and was a victim. Even if he was pursued by a woman, his responsibility to maintain boundaries NEVER changes. He is held to a higher standard. No matter what, his responsibility is to protect the flock.

    A great resource for CSA victims is a ministry called The Hope of Survivors (www.thehopeofsurvivors.com). This website (along with counseling & a sexual abuse support group) helped me get healing after CSA.

  60. Melissa wrote:

    It’s sad when a state organization can properly bring justice to assault much better than the church can..

    Absolutely. I am glad you reported him!

  61. After reading LT’s post, it hit me. When Mosaic imposed a three-year time period to stay away from ministry, and noting that Dustin had a PRIOR HISTORY of hitting on women in bars, it’s starting to add up. Mosaic Church (the corporation) and its elders had PRIOR KNOWLEDGE of Dustin’s predatory sexual behavior, yet failed to remove him and failed to protect the church members.

    This prior knowledge makes the corporate liability HUGE. There needs to be a CIVIL suit against Boles and Mosaic. The Mosaic elders should be confronted and their testimonies documented on the public record. What did they know, and when did they know it? There is a massive coverup going on here.

    Mosaic is in major CYA mode right now. They know that Boles is a dangerous SERIAL predator, and they must be convinced that he’ll repeat his tendencies in the ‘next church’ wherever that is. The three-year cushion on statute of limitations is to save their own a**es. After they are in the clear in 2019, they will be tacitly enabling Boles to repeat his abuse on women, whether from the pulpit, the workplace, or the hot tub.

    If there are substantial cash payments to Boles coincident with the terms of his leaving, what is the source? Mosaic’s capital fund? They have had a lot of delays finishing their new building. Acts 29? A different Acts 29 church? ARC? An ARC church? A different secret source that is motivated to protect predatory pastors? This could also be a clue as to the particpants in the cover up and how badly they know they have potential exposure on letting Boles repeat his disgusting behavior despite knowing the risks.

    Based on the evidence so far, I’m not counting on a criminal case to get much satisfaction for victims, as the MS laws are weak, and the punishment is minimal. Without penetration, looks more like a simple assault, a misdemeanor, not a felony, and not a sex crime in that state. The criminal case should still be pursued, if nothing more than to put one charge on the books, so that Boles can’t keep claiming he’s a first time offender and getting slaps on the wrist from the next judge. These things do add up over time.

    If there are more victims who will come forward, perhaps ones where Dustin “went farther” in his acts, that could make a stronger case for the DA. Then the testimonies of the Kaminkys and others could impact the criminal sentencing in THOSE cases.

  62. Jessica wrote:

    A different secret source that is motivated to protect predatory pastors?

    This thing about giving random money to someone who got themselves fired for cause is very bizarre. I hope that source of funding gets dug up…

  63. Good Lord! I know I’m just an old fuddy-duddy sort of Christian … old and done, some would say … a baby-boomer in age and character surrounded by the culture of a Millennial generation … a dinosaur from the Mesozoic Era trapped in the 21st century … and I know that I’m not supposed to judge the outward appearance. But, take a gander at the Mosaic Church staff page. Whew, what a crew!

  64. For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure that the Oasis Church of the Gulf Coast, where Eric Camp leads, isn’t Acts 29. It’s an ARC Church. I’m wondering why this Boles character would go outside of Acts 29, and the accountability structures they should have in place, when he is obviously in dire need of some church discipline. Shades of CJ and Driscoll?

  65. NJ wrote:

    Ok, now that I’ve calmed down after reading Rachel’s story, and quit fantasizing about what I would have liked to do to Mr. Boles if he had tried that with me (i.e. send him to the ER)

    My last sexual harasser made sure I was trapped when he made his move. I was at a desk with tall armrest, facing the wall, on the phone. He snuck up behind me and made a pass. Then he ran out of the building as fast as he could laughing.

    I ended up confronting him in front of several other people, and I told him that if he ever touched me again, or if I ever saw him do the same to someone else, he would end up in the ER.

    And if anyone does something like that again to me or anyone else, I will not only break whatever bones I can reach, but I will have the police there in a minute. I don’t care what kind of scene it makes anymore.

    I still feel very uncomfortable walking in my neighborhood or being alone. The aftereffects of things like this last long beyond the last encounter with that person.

  66. Nancy2 wrote:

    To all of the ladies out there: If a man (even a “pastor”) touches you beneath the table, it’s okay to tell him not to touch you again — out loud, no matter who is within earshot. If the man pays you no mind and touches you again, it’s okay to pour hot coffee or iced tea in his lap, or to stick a fork in his hand …… or his leg ……. or pretty much his anywhere.

    During one of my self defense classes (I have my CHL) the female instructor talked about how too often we women have been pressured to “be nice, be sweet and don’t cause a scene.” And that carries over into situations when we are uncomfortable or even in danger. I found it quite true about myself, especially as a 3rd generation preacher kid raised in a strict gender roles household. The older I’ve gotten, however, and the further away from my upbringing I move, the more my streak of I Don’t Care What You Think is growing.

  67. GSD wrote:

    Shades of CJ and Driscoll?

    Shades of New Calvinism at large, which appears to be creating more than its share of these characters.

  68. I fear a cage wrote:

    The older I’ve gotten, however, and the further away from my upbringing I move, the more my streak of I Don’t Care What You Think is growing.

    I think I have a good mix of not caring what people think and wanting to be Emily Post proper and polite. Hopefully the right parts of me will come out at the right times!

  69. dee wrote:

    @ Melissa:
    This is a comment that everyone should read. You did the right thing by not saying anything and getting out of the office prior to confronting him. he knew you were coming in at a particular time. I find it odd he kept that picture up until you were in his office. he could have asked you to wait a minute while he concealed the pics. I wonder if he was trying to see if you would go along with him. Could it have been some sort of grooming test? You got yourself safe! That is great.

    The only other thing you could have done is to stop payment on the check or ask your credit card company to remove the charges. The jerk didn’t deserve any money.

    Dee, I think you’re so right. As time went by, and I had a chance to really process it, the possibility it was a grooming test became more evident.. Especially since he knew my own struggles with past sex addiction and porn. To think I entrusted that to him gives me the heebeegeebees to this day..

    I wish I would’ve had more boldness to confront on the spot or stop payment on that check. I think it goes to show how hard it is to immediately process something like that that’s happening to you.. Something so violating and wrong.

    I don’t know Rachel, but I imagine it’s a possibility those thoughts have gone through her mind. And I’m here to say how she felt and how she responded and when she did is all very, very normal.

  70. oldtimer wrote:

    Mothers, teach your daughters, and sons, not to take this crap from anyone.
    They also need to be taught not to trust everyone either.

    That is quite the point.

    The first day in nursing arts lab in nursing school they taught us three things ‘before you to on the floor’: how to drink black coffee (don’t ask), how to scrub a room from top to bottom crevice by crevice, and how to deal with male patients. Because sometimes it is the patient who tries stuff.

    Then when I was in practice as a physician my former malpractice carrier used to give risk management seminars as to how the physician could protect themselves and from whom this would likely be necessary, because sometimes the patient is the aggressor and sometimes the ladies in the front office and the nurses on the floor will do you in when you have not been nice to them. Or so they said.

    The only time I actually got felt up the aggressor was another physician and it was in plain view of everybody in the radiology department. I dug an elbow into his ribs. Neither of us said a word, but it never happened again.

    None of that had anything to do with religion. I do not doubt that bad religion can help create victims. I do not think it is the only problem in this area, however. And any idea that this is rare is probably not correct.

  71. Max wrote:

    Shades of New Calvinism at large, which appears to be creating more than its share of these characters.

    Well, if you push Jesus aside for “the gospel” and you make the Holy Spirit the child in the Trinity, and you make coolness the measure of godliness, and if you make allegiance to ideology or guru equivalent to being regenerate, and if you value parroted doctrine over wisdom, and if you make character subordinate to crowd-drawing ability, then you get this kind of mess over and over again. This iteration has an artificial Calvinist flavor to it, but previously it was an artificial charismatic flavor or an artificial social justice flavor or some other artificial flavor that lots of people think is yummy.

  72. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    ESV — Everyman’s Supremacist Version.

    I think that the ESV translation oversight board wants to enshrine Grudem’s “contribution” to theology, and they are willing to throw principles of translation to the wind in order to do that. The fact is that Grudem has devoted his life to the subordination of the Eternal Son and of women, and that contribution is being challenged now by people other than egalitarians. It’s a kind of magical thinking, IMO. If they make their interpretation into a translation, then that makes it the Word of God. Very weird and not well thought out for the long term, IMO.

  73. Gram3 wrote:

    brad/futuristguy wrote:
    ESV — Everyman’s Supremacist Version.
    I think that the ESV translation oversight board wants to enshrine Grudem’s “contribution” to theology, and they are willing to throw principles of translation to the wind in order to do that.

    “And the Senate has decreed that henceforth the Roman Empire shall be called The Empire of Wayne Grudem GO WAYNE GRUDEM…”
    — Paraphrase of the deification of Caesar Commodus in Fall of the Roman Empire

  74. Christiane wrote:

    Even now the ‘male headship’ folks are messing with Genesis in their newly written ESL alteration.

    “ESL — Just like the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Bible, Except REFORMED!”

  75. Bridget wrote:

    @ Gram3:

    I think the lot of these men want women subservient to men for eternity

    Harems of 72 virgins for all Eternity in Paradise?

  76. Bridget wrote:

    I think the lot of these men want women subservient to men for eternity

    Well, if the New Calvinists can get us to believe that Jesus is eternally subordinate to God – that the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are not one with equal authority … then we will accept more easily that women are called to be eternally subservient to men.

  77. Christiane wrote:

    One further comment:
    if Boles is saying that the women were ‘willing’, it could be because he fears being sued for his attacks on them

    “I was horny, so she was willing.”
    — Creepy Rapist photo meme I saw somewhere

  78. Christiane wrote:

    But I’m asking, is the whole ‘male headship’ thing setting women up TO BE ABUSED and is it also a green light for pastors and their ‘friends’ to
    1. know that they are ‘saved’ by election and
    2. know that their ‘sin’ is not going to matter to their salvation???????

    I think this is called “Feature, not Bug”.

  79. Gram3 wrote:

    Well, if you push Jesus aside for “the gospel” and you make the Holy Spirit the child in the Trinity, and you make coolness the measure of godliness, and if you make allegiance to ideology or guru equivalent to being regenerate, and if you value parroted doctrine over wisdom, and if you make character subordinate to crowd-drawing ability, then you get this kind of mess over and over again. This iteration has an artificial Calvinist flavor to it, but previously it was an artificial charismatic flavor or an artificial social justice flavor or some other artificial flavor that lots of people think is yummy.

    You have just described the “another gospel” mentioned in Scripture. As you note, it continues to manifest itself in various forms – whatever works for the culture at hand in time and place.

  80. LT wrote:

    That picture of him posing in front of the erotic painting with his index finger in his mouth like a Playboy bunny also tells us what we need to know about his fitness to pastor.

    SERIOUSLY?
    HE ACTUALLY DID THAT?
    AND LET SOMEONE SNAP A BLACKMAIL PIC?
    DID HE UPLOAD IT HIMSELF?
    (I remember hearing that one of the thrills of forbidden sex is doing it in a way where you MIGHT get caught in the act. And exposed in more ways than one. Adds to the Arousal Thrill.)

  81. Bill M wrote:

    In other cases those wishing a cover-up had the power to make life a living hell for the one or two that did come forward, thus making sure that no other victims made the same “mistake”.

    Make an Example of one and you silence a thousand.

  82. Bridget wrote:

    @ Gram3:

    I think the lot of these men want women subservient to men for eternity 🙁

    If women are subordinate to men, as Christ is subordinate to the Father, then it is a (theo)logical conclusion from the underlying assumptions of Eternal Subordination of the Son that women are eternally subordinate to men because Christ is subordinate to the Father in eternity.

    Maybe that’s an oversimplification of the assumptions of ESS/ESF/ERAS — but it seems to me it is a justified conclusion from carrying out the core of those assumptions about subordination.

  83. @ brad/futuristguy:

    P.S. I always did like the NASB as a word-for-word translation, and Berkeley Version/Modern Language Bible for between a word-for-word and thought-for-thought translation. I find the psalms and poetic sections in BV/MLB magnificent.

  84. Gram3 wrote:

    if you make allegiance to ideology or guru equivalent to being regenerate, and if you value parroted doctrine over wisdom, and if you make character subordinate to crowd-drawing ability, then you get this kind of mess over and over again.

    Rock Stars . They just play their riffs on the ESV, The Danvers Statement, or the BFM 2000 instead of a Guitar.

  85. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Maybe that’s an oversimplification of the assumptions of ESS/ESF/ERAS — but it seems to me it is a justified conclusion from carrying out the core of those assumptions about subordination.

    With women at the bottom of the spiritual food chain.

  86. Gram3 wrote:

    It’s a kind of magical thinking, IMO. If they make their interpretation into a translation, then that makes it the Word of God. Very weird and not well thought out for the long term, IMO.

    No serious conservative Bible scholar has ever considered a translation inerrant. This group appears to do so.

    I can get behind the preservation of the manuscripts in their original languages. Translations are always going to have problems, and the new ESV version was intentionally changed just to support the hyper-Calvinist complementarian bias in Genesis 3.

  87. @ oldtimer:
    Amen. I even tell them to trust their first instinct that registers: this is weird…what is it? Don’t hesitate. Get away. Predators and perverts count on the confusion. They are shocked at a radical immediate response. They will blame you, of course. But even still tell someone else immediately. Document time place, etc.

  88. ishy wrote:

    the new ESV version was intentionally changed just to support the hyper-Calvinist complementarian bias in Genesis 3

    Yes, it appears that the New Calvinists had to rethink the first version of the ESV to eternally secure their comp view, since there will be no future revisions of that translation.

    The changes to Genesis 3:16 now read “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” The verse earlier stated “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

    My dad always warned me that women were a contrary bunch! ;^)

  89. Someone commented above that women are socialized always to be nice and never make a scene. I quite agree. I personally find it very difficult to raise my voice in public, to say no or to persistently question someone even in innocuous circumstances. When one experiences abuse, one is dumbfounded that it has happened and it is all too easy to want to pretend that it didn’t happen.

  90. Max wrote:

    then we will accept more easily that women are called to be eternally subservient to men.

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    If women are subordinate to men, as Christ is subordinate to the Father, then it is a (theo)logical conclusion from the underlying assumptions of Eternal Subordination of the Son that women are eternally subordinate to men because Christ is subordinate to the Father in eternity.

    And according to “complementarian subordinationists” this doctrine hinders abuse because throughout time we can see that subordination of one people over another never led subordinationists to abuse the subordinates – right?

    And Jesus called us brothers, sisters, and co-heirs with Christ because . . . he really meant that men were brothers and co-heirs but women were not.

  91. Max wrote:

    “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

    This “translation” brings to mind a green-broke mule balking against a lead rope!

  92. Bridget wrote:

    And Jesus called us brothers, sisters, and co-heirs with Christ because . . . he really meant that men were brothers and co-heirs but women were not.

    Because there will be soap bubbles in Heaven?

  93. Gram3 wrote:

    or some other artificial flavor that lots of people think is yummy

    Does anyone remember the “Holy Laughter” movement? That was a strange one! I repeat … the reason we have so many charlatans on stage is that they have an audience willing to put them there, supporting their charade with tithes and offerings. American “Christians” are some of the most gullible folks on the planet.

  94. okrapod wrote:

    Did I read that correctly? Hot tub? What were they doing in a hot tub? Is this what the new ‘invite the pastor to dinner’ thing is?

    This caught my eye as well, Okrapod. Certainly everyone has a right to have a hot tub and do with it what they want, but no pastor should be dipping in and out of one with church members’ wives. Sadly, this reminds me of a scene in Rodney Dangerfield’s Back to School; instead of Dangerfield in a hot tub with several bikini-clad girls we can substitute Dustin Boles and call it a Mosiac Church event.

  95. Nancy2 wrote:

    This “translation” brings to mind a green-broke mule balking against a lead rope!

    Yes, that describes young, gullible New Calvinist women willing to put up with this junk. Sooner or later, the stubborn mules “submit” and live long miserable lives requiring no rope other than the one entangled around their brains and hearts … never experiencing true freedom in Christ.

  96. Max wrote:

    The changes to Genesis 3:16 now read “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” The verse earlier stated “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

    I wonder of folks that believe this have ever heard of the New Testament and the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus. They love to live in the Old Testament.

  97. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    but it seems to me it is a justified conclusion from carrying out the core of those assumptions about subordination.

    I agree it is a logical implication of ESS. To avoid that trap, some go back and forth about whether the Man stands for all Males or for all husbands. Similarly for the Woman. That way, they can say that the subordination is only for wives. Which leads to a bunch of other questions like, why did a woman suddenly become spiritually and mentally disabled when she married? They cannot be consistent because then the *ridiculous* really shows itself.

  98. mot wrote:

    They must really hate women!

    You have to have a very weird psyche to be a New Calvinist pastor, in order to preach this stuff and treat other believers as lesser citizens in the Kingdom.

  99. Max wrote:

    American “Christians” are some of the most gullible folks on the planet.

    It’s sad, but I have to completely agree with you.

  100. Bridget wrote:

    And according to “complementarian subordinationists” this doctrine hinders abuse because throughout time we can see that subordination of one people over another never led subordinationists to abuse the subordinates – right?

    It is pretty much self evidence that giving someone power over another simply based on one characteristic (sex, race, status, etc) is going to lead to abuse. Not in every case, because some people are decent and not trying to lord it over others. But way more often than would happen if they weren’t given this power. This is so obvious, and born out throughout history. But that would be dismissed as ‘not biblical’ (even though it’s also all over the bible).

  101. Bridget wrote:

    And Jesus called us brothers, sisters, and co-heirs with Christ because . . . he really meant that men were brothers and co-heirs but women were not.

    New Calvinist belief has so many holes in it that they must continue to try to fill them … or get buried in them.

  102. Re: Christine’s comment at 8:20 “1. know that they are ‘saved’ by election and
    2. know that their ‘sin’ is not going to matter to their salvation???????”

    Longish-time lurker here. This attitude of ‘I am of the elect so I can do anything I want and still make it to heaven’ was very well portrayed in a novel written in 1927 – John Buchan’s ‘Witchwood’ (he of 39 Steps fame). Set in 1600s Scotland, it tells of a group of men (incl. pastors) who get involved in occult matters, but ‘it’s OK because we’re the Elect(tm)’. They are brought down by a godly pastor in the end, but he must flee that place in consequence.

    All this pastoral malfeasance that keeps coming up sounds SO much like Buchan’s novel, but I think that the fact that he wrote this in 1927 indicates that this garbage thinking has been around a long, long time.

  103. Max wrote:

    mot wrote:

    They must really hate women!

    You have to have a very weird psyche to be a New Calvinist pastor, in order to preach this stuff and treat other believers as lesser citizens in the Kingdom.

    Sadly, the Southern Baptist Convention is becoming more deeply involved in this mindset every day. I see no males in the leadership that will speak against this nonsense.

  104. mot wrote:

    Sadly, the Southern Baptist Convention is becoming more deeply involved in this mindset every day. I see no males in the leadership that will speak against this nonsense.

    Agreed. There must be some sort of demonic spell cast over SBC’s national leadership! There’s certainly nothing holy about these developments. SBC is spirally downward in a lot of ways … and I say that as a 60+ year Southern Baptist.

  105. Max wrote:

    mot wrote:

    Sadly, the Southern Baptist Convention is becoming more deeply involved in this mindset every day. I see no males in the leadership that will speak against this nonsense.

    Agreed. There must be some sort of demonic spell cast over SBC’s national leadership! There’s certainly nothing holy about these developments. SBC is spirally downward in a lot of ways … and I say that as a 60+ year Southern Baptist.

    I’ve been a Southern Baptist for 40+ years and IMO unless you 100% agree with the 2000 BF&M, you are not wanted in a leadership position in the SBC. You have to be against the wimin–I am for Women just as Jesus was and is!!

  106. Estelle wrote:

    When one experiences abuse, one is dumbfounded that it has happened and it is all too easy to want to pretend that it didn’t happen.

    Exactly

  107. LT wrote:

    Matt C is a very influential leader in the Christian community who knows a lot other wealthy and influential people.

    Let me take this opportunity to remind everyone of my *favourite* Chandler quote. He and Village elders say they “shoot” wolves. Boles seems to qualify according to the 20th century American definition of “wolf”. Then again Driscoll and Morris qualify according to the Biblical definition. But Chandler defines wolves thusly:
    ‘ The wolves are in the church. So when people say to me, “This happened. . .this happened. . .this happened,” I’ve got no argument. I just go, “It’s worse than that.” It’s played itself out here in several ways. There are young men in the city of Dallas who know that there are young, beautiful women at the Village Church, and so they come here to hunt. And I plead with our girls constantly that good behavior and godliness aren’t the same thing, and if you marry good and not godly, you’ve set yourself up for sorrow, especially if you want to raise children and serve God. If you marry a man who is not interested in those things, your children are going to take their cues from their daddy. And men, that should be an unbelievable weight on you. So when we find out that you’re hunting here, we’re going to shoot you. It’s even to the point where we’ve had discussions about putting your dumb picture on all of the screens and going, “Avoid this idiot.”’
    So a wolf is actually a good young man who’s not sufficiently “godly” and interested in raising children and serving God, but who might want to MARRY “our girls”. (These are defined as young, beautiful Village women– older or plainer ones need not worry about wolves.)
    http://www.thevillagechurch.net/media/sermons/transcripts/201010171700FMWC21ASAAA_MattChandler_UltimateAuthorityPt4-GuidingAndConfrontingTheMess.pdf

  108. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    LT wrote:

    That picture of him posing in front of the erotic painting with his index finger in his mouth like a Playboy bunny also tells us what we need to know about his fitness to pastor.

    SERIOUSLY?
    HE ACTUALLY DID THAT?
    AND LET SOMEONE SNAP A BLACKMAIL PIC?
    DID HE UPLOAD IT HIMSELF?
    (I remember hearing that one of the thrills of forbidden sex is doing it in a way where you MIGHT get caught in the act. And exposed in more ways than one. Adds to the Arousal Thrill.)

    That would make a fantastic topper to a blog post outlining everything so far, if someone could locate it.

  109. Uncle Dad wrote:

    My 34 year old niece has been missing since August 28. I’m posting the link to a missing persons registry for any readers in the Fairfield, ME area.
    http://www.missingin.org/reg11909/valerie_joy_tieman.htm

    Thanks for sharing that. My heart hurts when I read it.

    Is there a poster with social media links to share on FB and Twitter, etc.? I didn’t see it for this poster. I’d like to spread the work via social media, even though I’m in California. I connect with people across the nation and around the world.

    Praying.

  110. “There are young men in the city of Dallas who know that there are young, beautiful women at the Village Church, and so they come here to hunt. And I plead with our girls constantly that good behavior and godliness aren’t the same thing, and if you marry good and not godly, you’ve set yourself up for sorrow, especially if you want to raise children and serve God. If you marry a man who is not interested in those things, your children are going to take their cues from their daddy.”

    What about the sort who have no problem with deception? His point about outward good behavior and godliness is a valid one, but I can see a guy professing interest in having kids and serving God just to get the gal; basically pulling a bait and switch. Since he’s the head of the house, she has to go along with what he wants, right?

  111. “I ended up confronting him in front of several other people, and I told him that if he ever touched me again, or if I ever saw him do the same to someone else, he would end up in the ER.”

    Ishy, I hope this got him in a boat load of trouble.

  112. @ Melissa:
    Oh you did the absolute best thing. I would hesitate to confront alone especially in that situation where he had a lot of info on you. He knew exactly what he was doing. Leaving left him to wonder what you would do. Thanks so much for telling your experience. It’s how others learn.

  113. Over at Watch Keep, Amy Smith says:

    “I have learned that Dustin Boles alleges that he has been offered a restoration process with Oasis Church and ARC Churches.”

    ARC churches? That right there tells me all I need to know about this guy. His alleged Reformed credentials (from being affiliated with Acts29) aren’t worth jack squat.

  114. Here is another point that needs to be raised and I am honestly wondering. Dustin Boles served in the Air Force (USAF) for a period of time. The US military has a major problem with sexual assault and rape.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/movies/invisible-war-documentary-examines-rape-in-the-military/2012/06/21/gJQAcGqhtV_story.html

    So here is the question I have…Did Dustin Boles engage in alleged sexual assault in the military? Did he do something that led to the USAF to let him separate? Did he reach an agreement where he would agree to be discharged with a favorable rating and the government did that so they could remove him from the military?

    These are all questions I have in reading and thinking about this

  115. GSD wrote:

    For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure that the Oasis Church of the Gulf Coast, where Eric Camp leads, isn’t Acts 29. It’s an ARC Church. I’m wondering why this Boles character would go outside of Acts 29, and the accountability structures they should have in place, when he is obviously in dire need of some church discipline. Shades of CJ and Driscoll?

    ARC is the perfect place for pastors caught in sexual indiscretions. Look at who is ARC’s EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR? Dino Rizzo! He runs the place despite having an affair with a very young, naive staff member, then covering it up. He still hasn’t fully confessed to his actions so how can he be repentant or restored? The girl was given a large tithe funded settlement to move to another state and stay quiet. Out of sight, out of mind. Dino took a little time off then was hired by ARC Leadership Team Member Chris Hodges and put right back in ministry at ARC’s Church of the Highlands. He was in charge of Pastoral Care. Imagine that? Shortly after that Dino was put on the ARC Executive Team to go teach other pastors how to pastor then later promoted to Executive Director. I guess they want to teach their future ARC pastors how to make the pay-offs more quickly and keep things quiet. Now Dino is teaching his techniques in Europe as well.
    .
    ARC’s most lucrative church is Gateway Church of Southlake. Gateway helped Ted Haggard out on his sex scandal where he had tithe funded, meth fueled sex with a gay prostitute for 3 years. They also bailed out Blaine Bartel and his sex addiction in what is now the Gateway Frisco campus. According to Blaine, his issues were worse than Ted’s. They have also provided cover for other Gateway pastors who have had affairs. And yes, outside members do provide financial assistance while certain pastors step down “for a season” after their infidelity is discovered.
    .
    Although Mark Driscoll’s many scandals did not involve sexual immorality, it is ARC’s Gateway that is using their tithes to basically plant Driscoll’s new TTC church, despite MD not completing any reconciliation or restoration with his elders. There is little Gateway and ARC like doing more than helping out a disqualified brother. Gotta get those fallen pastors back in the pulpit as soon as possible. It makes it much easier should their own indiscretions be uncovered at a later date. Oasis just happened to be the closest ARC Church.

  116. Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher

  117. mot wrote:

    Max wrote:
    mot wrote:
    They must really hate women!
    You have to have a very weird psyche to be a New Calvinist pastor, in order to preach this stuff and treat other believers as lesser citizens in the Kingdom.
    Sadly, the Southern Baptist Convention is becoming more deeply involved in this mindset every day. I see no males in the leadership that will speak against this nonsense.

    Mohler and Dever teamed up early on with vulgar abusive ministry partners for the SBC like Driscoll Acts 29, Mahaney, Piper, and so on and that became the mindset for their young followers.

  118. NJ wrote:

    Ishy, I hope this got him in a boat load of trouble.

    Unfortunately, it’s a complicated situation. He’s not all there anymore, has dementia, I think.

  119. Max wrote:

    “I have lost my career, my reputation, and a lot more” (Dustin Boles)

    The first time he used his trusted position, as a minister in service to Our Lord, in order to abuse an innocent woman, he lost his ‘career’ along with ‘a lot more’

    now does he want to blame the victims for what ‘he’ lost?

  120. Estelle wrote:

    Someone commented above that women are socialized always to be nice and never make a scene. I quite agree.

    Eeehhh. Some are, while others are not. I think environment, personality type, birth order, etc are factors, too. My daughter an I are examples of the “nots”. I was the oldest child by almost 9 years, oldest grandchild by 8 years, raised on a farm. I didn’t help mommy cook and clean. I worked in tobacco, tended to the animals, fixed fences, etc. My daughter is an only child, same circumstances, except that she was also an army brat. We were both raised to be nice when possible, but to fight when necessary.
    When I was 14, a neighbor boy slipped into the barn behind me and grabbed me where he shouldn’t have. I hit him with my fist, busting his lip and leaving a good bruise.
    When my daughter was 18, he ex-boyfriend tried to force himself on her in a mutual friend’s garage. She hit him in the head with a ratchet and cold cocked him.

  121. @ GSD:

    So Boles Acts 29 church is not going to discipline him? Does Chandler know? He should be “pushed” under the care of Acts 29 leaders. Or is that only for women who want to separate from pedophiles?

  122. @ Lydia:

    Wait. I would like to know from Kevin Ezell at NAMB if the SBC spent any money on Boles’ Acts 29 church plant. Sadly, they won’t make that info public to SBC donors.

  123. dee wrote:

    Burwell wrote:

    “The Monster We Created: Councils, Brand Names, and Celebrities”. It is worth the read. http://gentlereformation.com/2016/09/12/the-monster-we-created-councils-brand-names-and-celebrities/

    I saw this and have put it in the post lineup. I love the guy’s last name.

    ” ….. as it appears to me, this is exactly the kind of monster the broader evangelical movement has created. In the laboratories of experimentation something has been created that can only be described as a type of monster–a culture of councils, brand names, and celebrity-ism–and it’s becoming increasingly hard to contain. Something has been created that was not meant to be created.”

  124. @ Dave A A:

    I’m a young single man in Dallas and this is life. Dee one time asked me why young women go there with the comp doctrine. Aside from herd instinct, this is it: grossly exaggerated fear of fake Christians who aren’t in small groups out to get them. It’s echoed at Watermark too. And thus, online dating websites in Dallas are full of gorgeous ~30 year old women who shove are you really a Christian litmus tests in guys’ faces from the get go.

    It also creates the mentality of the pastors are the only ones who are really good enough for all the pretty girls are the pastors, but they’ll allow good church members to get a date, which is what I meant in my earlier post. Kind of like Federal Vision, but with sex instead of sacraments.

  125. mot wrote:

    Max wrote:
    The changes to Genesis 3:16 now read “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” The verse earlier stated “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
    I wonder of folks that believe this have ever heard of the New Testament and the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus. They love to live in the Old Testament.

    The most accurate translation would read more like this: because you turn to your husband (and not Me), he will rule over you.

    When turning was changed to desire around the 1300’s, it was easier to twist for the modern age. People equated it with sex, weakness, etc, etc.

  126. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    LT wrote:

    That picture of him posing in front of the erotic painting with his index finger in his mouth like a Playboy bunny also tells us what we need to know about his fitness to pastor.

    SERIOUSLY?
    HE ACTUALLY DID THAT?
    AND LET SOMEONE SNAP A BLACKMAIL PIC?
    DID HE UPLOAD IT HIMSELF?
    (I remember hearing that one of the thrills of forbidden sex is doing it in a way where you MIGHT get caught in the act. And exposed in more ways than one. Adds to the Arousal Thrill.)

    Oh, he posed for it himself. I’m not sure posted originally, but I would guess Boles since he is the one clearly striking the selfie pose, but kudos to Joy and Sadness (@GozoYTristeza) for Tweeting it.

    I realize some will see this as a mere “nude painting” but I studied Art History. This painting appears to have been done in the 20th century based on hair styles, fitness of the female form and technique. Notice the gold embossing overlaid directly unto the canvas. That was big around 1980-90’s. The content of the picture is also of an erotic nature, not of historical significance, such as a depiction of the Rape of the Sabines in the Renaissance era. You can judge for yourself. His posed reaction is what creeps me out. https://twitter.com/GozoYTristeza/status/775111002643918848

  127. NJ wrote:

    What about the sort who have no problem with deception? His point about outward good behavior and godliness is a valid one, but I can see a guy professing interest in having kids and serving God just to get the gal; basically pulling a bait and switch. Since he’s the head of the house, she has to go along with what he wants, right?

    Which is most of the real wolves…

    Maybe they should actively teach women how to spot fakes and liars, but I think they might have to get it themselves.

  128. NJ wrote:

    His alleged Reformed credentials (from being affiliated with Acts29) aren’t worth jack squat.

    They were only good for VC dollars as he traveled around planting Acts 29 follower-factories.

  129. Max wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    I think the lot of these men want women subservient to men for eternity

    Well, if the New Calvinists can get us to believe that Jesus is eternally subordinate to God – that the Father, Son & Holy Spirit are not one with equal authority … then we will accept more easily that women are called to be eternally subservient to men.

    The Eternal Subordination of the Son thing is so far from Christian orthodoxy as to practically be a new religion, and yes I can see neo-Cal folks trying to create their own cult, with a seminary generating ‘stealth’ pastors, with a ‘theology’ made to order by Grudem and Ware, with a change in the BF&M2K that opens the door for male head-ship, and with a brand-new bible written BY them and FOR them that will PROVE THEY ARE BEING ‘BIBLICAL’. Right.

  130. Stan wrote:

    @ Dave A A:

    I’m a young single man in Dallas and this is life. Dee one time asked me why young women go there with the comp doctrine. Aside from herd instinct, this is it: grossly exaggerated fear of fake Christians who aren’t in small groups out to get them. It’s echoed at Watermark too. And thus, online dating websites in Dallas are full of gorgeous ~30 year old women who shove are you really a Christian litmus tests in guys’ faces from the get go.

    It also creates the mentality of the pastors are the only ones who are really good enough for all the pretty girls are the pastors, but they’ll allow good church members to get a date, which is what I meant in my earlier post. Kind of like Federal Vision, but with sex instead of sacraments.

    Stan, that is weird. So the only way to ensure a genuine Christian husband is to join a comp church with everyone in small groups? As you describe it, their behavior on the dating sites sounds more like something normal guys would steer clear of, almost guaranteeing their perpetual singleness. If the only men worthy of them must be as super spiritual as the pastors, well…good luck. You will find plenty of that thinking over at Boundless, though.

    It would be interesting to see Daisy’s take on this.

  131. Lea wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    What about the sort who have no problem with deception? His point about outward good behavior and godliness is a valid one, but I can see a guy professing interest in having kids and serving God just to get the gal; basically pulling a bait and switch. Since he’s the head of the house, she has to go along with what he wants, right?

    Which is most of the real wolves…

    Maybe they should actively teach women how to spot fakes and liars, but I think they might have to get it themselves.

    No kidding.

  132. Burwell wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    His alleged Reformed credentials (from being affiliated with Acts29) aren’t worth jack squat.

    They were only good for VC dollars as he traveled around planting Acts 29 follower-factories.

    You’re probably right. I keep thinking these latest iterations of the church growth movement are destined to crash and burn at some point.

  133. Gram3 wrote:

    The fact is that Grudem has devoted his life to the subordination of the Eternal Son and of women, and that contribution is being challenged now by people other than egalitarians.

    Not conservative, but aeeing this makes me glad I was like a junkyard dog last night re complementarianism and submission. Although I now wish I’d carried a sign saying “Jesus died for our sins, not Wayne Grudem’s male supremacist fantasies.” Sometimes I try to soft pedal the problem.

  134. Dave A A wrote:

    So when we find out that you’re hunting here, we’re going to shoot you. It’s even to the point where we’ve had discussions about putting your dumb picture on all of the screens and going, “Avoid this idiot.”

    Is Chandler a liar? This isn’t the stance he took with Jordan(?) Root is it. No, he crucified the wife and supported the pedophile until he apologized.

  135. Lydia wrote:

    @ GSD:

    So Boles Acts 29 church is not going to discipline him? Does Chandler know? He should be “pushed” under the care of Acts 29 leaders. Or is that only for women who want to separate from pedophiles?

    Thanks for pointing that out Lydia! That was one of my early thoughts on this. Karen Hinckley gets badgered to reconcile with her pedophile husband and play ball the Acts 29 way, but this guy allegedly gets a cash payout and is sent on his merry way. BTW I think the Jordan Root case is a perfect example of an Acts 29 “civilian” helping out a fallen Acts 29 sex deviant.
    .
    Jordan was taken in by a wealthy Dallasite lawyer and was taken care of. Karen was not. The big megas have these sorts of patrons/benefactors. It reminds me a bit of NCAA Boosters. They make private provisions for the fallen pastors, outside of the organization itself, thereby insulating the church from criticism while still supporting the offender.
    .
    On the other hand, Boles did say he left the church, so maybe Acts 29 tried to engage in discipline. They can’t force a non-church member to undergo the process. If that is the case, then I understand that completely. But if this man tries to get back in ministry without undergoing the proper disciplinary process, I hope that Acts 29 will speak out against this. I’m not holding my breath, but I hope for the sake of future victims, something is said or done.

  136. LT wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Jordan was taken in by a wealthy Dallasite lawyer and was taken care of. Karen was not. The big megas have these sorts of patrons/benefactors. It reminds me a bit of NCAA Boosters. They make private provisions for the fallen pastors, outside of the organization itself, thereby insulating the church from criticism while still supporting the offender.

    I’ve been wondering about Jordan Root.

  137. Lydia wrote:

    So Boles Acts 29 church is not going to discipline him? Does Chandler know? He should be “pushed” under the care of Acts 29 leaders. Or is that only for women who want to separate from pedophiles?

    LT wrote:

    ARC is the perfect place for pastors caught in sexual indiscretions.

    There are definitely 2 different sets of rules, for sheep and “shepherds.” Especially for female sheep. And of course, all “shepherds” are, by definition, male.

    And ARC does seems to be functioning as a “Get Out of Jail Free” card for “shepherds” with moral indiscretions, and flexible theology. I do see a great need for places where fallen leaders can be restored, where they can really face and work through the consequences of their actions, and make some restitution to their victims and others who were affected by their… issues. I get the feeling that ARC isn’t taking the time to help them through that process, and is rushing them back into ministry.

  138. Bridget wrote:

    Is Chandler a liar?

    They reject reality and substitute their own. Because Jordan was a wolf. And Karen was shot. None of their macho talk about protecting women actually means a thing when it comes down to an actual case, because you have to BELIEVE women and care about them and value them to actually protect them.

  139. @ LT:

    I wonder if Jordan Root is still being escorted around the Villiage Church by a minder who is to keep him away from children?

  140. Nancy2 wrote:

    When I was 14, a neighbor boy slipped into the barn behind me and grabbed me where he shouldn’t have. I hit him with my fist, busting his lip and leaving a good bruise.
    When my daughter was 18, he ex-boyfriend tried to force himself on her in a mutual friend’s garage. She hit him in the head with a ratchet and cold cocked him.

    This comment was a pleasure to read. If more women were brought up to defend their dignity physically, I think the world would be a much better place. Sometimes saying ‘no’ has to be reinforced with force. A lot of force. 🙂

  141. @ Stan:

    This reminds me of the early days of seeker mega singles groups which were meat markets. They certainly did not expect the pastor to vet potential husbands for them, though. People are consistently becoming more and more infantalized. Grow up, already!

  142. Lea wrote:

    because you have to BELIEVE women and care about them and value them to actually protect them.

    Subordinationists generally don’t value their subordinates.

  143. LT wrote:

    On the other hand, Boles did say he left the church, so maybe Acts 29 tried to engage in discipline.

    Boles sounds rabid. He’s performed his ‘actions’ against women in public places with their husbands and other men nearby. I think he could not ‘control’ his impulses at those times. Maybe the extent of the ‘daring’ of a perpetrator is considered by a Church ‘authority’ who wants to keep such activity on the downlo and not see it going on in high-risk settings where discovery is more likely.

  144. @ Christiane:
    My mom came to the big city alone for college and then career. She used to tell me stories about men who made “passes” (as she called them) and how she handled it or wished she had. She even had a music director she played for, do it. I mean this stuff goes on a lot. I really think that helped prepare me to be more assertive and it not be such a shock.

    We must share real life with our daughters and remind them of their great value every day.

  145. @ LT:
    Three years is a long time to have an actual boss and be expected to produce in the real world. :o)

  146. I don’t know Boles’ wife’s position. Is she ignorant, enabler or partner in crime. I do think the school where she is to teach should be informed of the allegations and her husband kept from campus.

  147. I clicked the link for the church website & got their measure quick – their Bible Study picture includes something from Steven Furtick. Furtick’s the local flim-flam show around here, getting attendance in the thousands because of the band & the light show & the smoke machine.

  148. mirele wrote:

    makes me glad I was like a junkyard dog last night re complementarianism and submission.

    Me, too. I’m very sorry about Grudem’s personal health problems, but that does not give him a pass on the toxic and heretical doctrines he has taught and now wants inscribed on tablets of stone. Thanks for trying to inform people about what these guys are really about.

  149. Jessica wrote:

    However I’m still deeply troubled and concerned about many other things:
    I really have to wonder about Natalie’s knowledge and involvement in all this – how could you be married to a guy for 15+ years and never notice he likes to flirt and hit on married women? Very unlikely that the summer of 2016 was his first foray into this type of behavior.

    I was just saying in a post about this last night that some married couples are into this kinky thing where they like to watch each other engage in sexual acts with other people. Maybe Mrs. Boles is into that.

    I posted about that here:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/09/12/the-allegations-against-dustin-boles-former-pastor-of-the-acts-29-affiliated-mosaic-church/#comment-281756

    I’ve also read of a few cases over the years of women who either sit back and watch their husband/BF (boyfriend) sexually assault others, or they participate with the male, e.g., there was a famous case in Canada sometime in the 1990s where some lady sexually assaulted her own kid sister -WITH- her BF.

    There was also a news story out of New Mexico a few weeks ago of a woman (mother) who sat back and did NOTHING while her new BF raped and strangled her 10 year old daughter (Victoria Martens).

    There are women who go along with the perversions of their male partner.

  150. Lydia wrote:

    We must share real life with our daughters and remind them of their great value every day.

    This is so very true. The Female Subordinationists will say, “Of course we value our daughters!” But they do not mean the same thing as you or I would mean by that. They do not mean that they value their daughters as unique human beings fully created in the image of God to do whatever *God* calls them to do, not whatever a human male calls them to do. They see their daughters/wives first and foremost as Role-Fillers not as Image-Bearers.

  151. mirele wrote:

    “Jesus died for our sins, not Wayne Grudem’s male supremacist fantasies.” Sometimes I try to soft pedal the problem.

    I think that would make a fine sign.

  152. Gram3 wrote:

    They see their daughters/wives first and foremost as Role-Fillers

    That really gets at the sadness of it all, doesn’t it?

    I lived in a ‘big city’ and most of my issues were with random people on the street/metro/clubs. Mostly not serious, one thing might have been serious but turned out ok.

    It would be so disconcerting to have someone you thought was a friend, pastor or family do this sort of thing! I feel so bad for these women.

  153. Lea wrote:

    hey reject reality and substitute their own. Because Jordan was a wolf. And Karen was shot. None of their macho talk about protecting women actually means a thing when it comes down to an actual case, because you have to BELIEVE women and care about them and value them to actually protect them.

    I don’t believe their defn of “protect is in line with the standard dictionary defn.
    In their world , “protect” women is synonymous with “control” women.

  154. One thing I’ve noticed is that most of these situations with Boles involved married people, and he himself is married.

    Normally, the “Billy Graham Rule” is applied to UN-married women, because supposedly, all the single ladies cannot resist trying to have affairs with married Christian men.

    But here you have a married guy hitting on married women.

    Advocates of the BGR might want to re-work their stereotypes about single adults to factor in that married people prey on other married people.

    I’m a single woman, but I’m not out there sleeping around, trying to bed married men, or sexually assaulting people, whether they married or not.

  155. Many people have heard of the “fight or flight” response, but fewer people understand that there is also a freeze response. Even well-trained, brave, experienced soldiers have sometimes “frozen” in battle.

    Few people realize the incredible shock and confusion that can overwhelm a victim of sexual trauma. Sometimes the person will literally dissociate — I observed that firsthand a number of years ago when I rescued a young woman from a guy who was being “overly friendly”. But I’ve also, sadly, experienced it firsthand.

    Combine that with the fact that many of us are socialized not to “make a scene”, that we have been taught to disregard our own feelings and hunches, that we have not been taught or encouraged to have and assert healthy boundaries — well, our culture does a great job in grooming women for sexual abuse.

    And then we blame them for men’s actions.

    It’s infuriating.

  156. Melissa wrote:

    I reported him to another therapist and he was reported properly to the state. He lost the ability to practice for awhile at least, and certainly couldn’t with women.
    It’s sad when a state organization can properly bring justice to assault much better than the church can..

    Sad, yes, but it reminds me of what Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-7:

    Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgement. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. Pay to all what is due to them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

    We have legal rights. The church has NO standing to tell us to abandon our rights under civil law, merely because we are Christian. And Paul was writing about the almighty Roman Empire, which was none too kind to the early followers of Jesus.

    Thank you for reporting the miscreant!

  157. Nancy2 wrote:

    What is it that makes certain women so susceptible to these vultures? Could it have something to do with the “gospelly” issue of “male headship” and hierarchy within the churches?

    There could be any number of reasons why a woman might not react immediately when she’s being groped by a man, receiving unwanted touches.

    However, I would gather that one possible reason is if it’s a Christian woman who was raised under complementarianism, she will have been taught that having boundaries is wrong, that other people’s feelings/ needs / reputations are more important than her own. Etc.

    I was raised under that complementarian teaching myself, mostly by my mother, lesser extent by my father, and I heard such teaching at churches as I was growing up.

    It does make you more vulnerable to enduring mistreatment unnecessarily. It makes you feel as though you do not have a right to protest or speak out against abuse.

    I personally may not be the best example here, because even though I was brainwashed with this teaching and lived it out, as far as emotional and verbal abuse was concerned, I knew at a very young age that anything PHYSICAL was absolutely wrong, and I would not tolerate it.

    Even as a kid, I knew if someone slapped, punched, or tried to sexually touch me, that it was not okay (no matter the stuff my church and mother taught me about how girls and women should be compliant little doormats).

    I also took the idea of staying a virgin until marriage very seriously, so I knew that nobody had the right to touch me sexually at any time without my express permission, and I did not care who it was, preacher or not.

    On the rare occasions I was assaulted physically by kids at school when I was a kid, I punched them back hard.

    At any age, had any person tried to sexually grope me, I would have screamed bloody murder (even in front of a group of people), I would not have felt embarrassed cussing them out in front of others. I probably would’ve stuck a fork through the person’s hand and punched them, too.

    I didn’t care about that gender role garbage in- so- far as physical touch was concerned. I drew the line at physical abuse.

    But maybe other women who grew up with these gender roles teachings, (which consists of regular female deference to males), didn’t have it in them to draw the line at physical contact.

    I was willing to endure emotional and verbal abuse because of that stupid complementarian teaching, but not any sort of physical abuse.

  158. GSD wrote:

    And ARC does seems to be functioning as a “Get Out of Jail Free” card for “shepherds” with moral indiscretions, and flexible theology. I do see a great need for places where fallen leaders can be restored, where they can really face and work through the consequences of their actions, and make some restitution to their victims and others who were affected by their… issues. I get the feeling that ARC isn’t taking the time to help them through that process, and is rushing them back into ministry.

    I completely agree with you. But when people like Mark Driscoll and Dino Rizzo are restored to ministry by ARC leaders before publicly acknowledging the truth about this misdeeds, I think we can all see that they are rushing these men back into the pulpits. Dino needs to fully acknowledge it was an extended affair. He hurt that young lady who had to leave town and start her life all over. God only knows if she will ever return to the church. Mark fled Seattle with the covering of ARC, receiving paid gigs and money to help plant TTC. We know he failed to acknowledge all of his wrong doings – and no, saying “mistakes were made” regarding just the plagiarism doesn’t address all of his disqualifying behavior.
    .
    ARC realizes that these two high profile pastors have their dirty laundry out there, so you would think they would at least make their poster boys for ARC restoration admit to the fullness of their sin and make it seem like they are going through n actual restoration process. But who can be fully restored when they won’t even publicly admit their role in wrong-doing? It reminds me of the movie Dead Man Walking. The murderer played by Sean Penn could not really receive the full grace and pardon of Jesus Christ until he fully admitted to his role in killing that innocent teenager.
    .
    Rizzo knows what he did to that young lady, how he abused his spiritual authority and power of his position to seduce her. Yet he sticks to his “inappropriate friendship” story. Like they sinned by eating pizza together. Driscoll has only made vague admissions and virtually always spun with himself as the victim going through his “great season of suffering”. These men will not fix what is wrong with them until they admit their wrong-doing. It’s not a mystery why Boles turns to an ARC church for support. He can stick with his “I’m the real victim here, just ask the Uber guy” and then ask ARC for the “Mark Driscoll New Plant Money” special. The money making machine must go on.
    .
    Look at Gateway member and Daystar Television owner Marcus Lamb He is also a preacher. He carried on a 3 year long affair with his Daystar Marketing Director. Every day during those 3 torrid years Marcus play-acted as the doting husband and father in front of his TV audience. Once the affair was discovered Marcus didn’t step down. The Lambs paid the Director off from their offerings. Daystar contributors unwittingly got to help “plant a very special seed” this way. Were there not a court record, Marcus would have never admitted to any wrong doing. Robert Morris is Marcus and Joni’s pastor. He never required Marcus to take time off for restoration, from his TV pulpit or from preaching at other churches and conferences, which Marcus does regularly. But Robert sure did get a lot of free broadcast time during that “season”. He still does.
    .
    When some of the biggest and most visible pastors in modern Christianity get to conveniently escape full consequences and don’t even have to ADMIT to full wrong-doing, why wouldn’t people like Boles turn to them for support? Boles wants to blame his victims and paint himself as the real victim. I wonder where he learned that? He’s a blond beach-bum version of Mark Driscoll. Who wouldn’t want the easy way out? How about someone who loves and fears the Lord? A real shepherd.

  159. @ Melissa:

    Melissa, you know what is also disturbing about this situation is the bold and clear sexual harassment. Many companies have a zero tolerance to sexual harassment as it opens the company for legal risk. But looking at porn on your computer at work creates a volatile and disturbing workplace. People get fired for it. So for that to happen in that setting is especially troubling. That is awful that it happened.

  160. @ Dave A A:

    Another thing: what Chandler is too dumb to understand is that if he claimed to be a Calvinist 450 years ago, and believed against infant baptism, there’d be a screen posted somewhere that would have his picture, but instead of saying “avoid this idiot”, it would say “hunt down and kill this idiot”.

    @ GSD:

    Running to Robert Morris to avoid consequences, just like Driscoll.

    @ NJ:

    Weird, absolutely. It’s obnoxious and demeaning. Young women absolutely need to be cautious, but also recognize that the real creeps are adept liars.

    9Marks way: you’re not really a Christian until you’re in your small group for church discipline. Otherwise you’re a rebel or are your own idol or are self-reliant or whatever.

    I know godly older single women and they have my sympathies. Know that I’m talking about a different situation. It’s not just the attitude, but girls hoping for a king of the castle breadwinning southern gentleman don’t realize that the only guys making it out of the accountabilibuddy system alive are Peter Pans and phony creeps.

  161. @ Gram3:

    One of the definitions of comp doctrine that espouses “protection and responsibility” that I witnessed often was “Easily expendable”. It is much easier to throw a female under the bus in those circles. The rationale is a various smorgasbord of the usual. I think we see this quite often in these circles without putting a name to it. Boles did it with his victims. They often do it to female volunteers or staffers.

  162. Rebecca Prewett wrote:

    Many people have heard of the “fight or flight” response, but fewer people understand that there is also a freeze response. Even well-trained, brave, experienced soldiers have sometimes “frozen” in battle.
    Few people realize the incredible shock and confusion that can overwhelm a victim of sexual trauma. Sometimes the person will literally dissociate — I observed that firsthand a number of years ago when I rescued a young woman from a guy who was being “overly friendly”. But I’ve also, sadly, experienced it firsthand.
    Combine that with the fact that many of us are socialized not to “make a scene”, that we have been taught to disregard our own feelings and hunches, that we have not been taught or encouraged to have and assert healthy boundaries — well, our culture does a great job in grooming women for sexual abuse.
    And then we blame them for men’s actions.
    It’s infuriating.

    It can happen in other circumstances as well. A few years ago our former pastor was praying from the pulpit and he cited Psalms 37:25 (“I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread.”) and then followed it with “So therefore we know, Lord, that the poor are not your righteous and not your children.”

    I was so stunned I just sat there going over and over in my mind what I knew I’d just heard but couldn’t make myself believe it’d just been said. Rather than walking up, overturning the pulpit and denouncing him in front of the congregation–which would’ve very inappropriate in the nice country club church crowd of the Deep South, but IMHO would’ve been quite appropriate in the eyes of God–I sat there and said nothing, listened to the sermon (can’t even remember what it was, my brain was numb), smiled at the other parishioners, made small talk and headed out to the van with the family. It was only later that I looked at my wife and asked her if she’d heard the veritable blasphemy from the pulpit. She hadn’t, she’d been (wisely) thinking of something else during pastor’s prayer and had stopped paying attention to him months before.

    Sometimes you just can’t believe your ears or eyes or perhaps what you’re feeling on your thighs and your brain reels and locks up trying to explain the inexplicable.

  163. Anna wrote:

    Don’t fall for the lie that these pastors fall because some ‘Jezebel’ set their sights on him and in the end he just couldn’t resist and was a victim. Even if he was pursued by a woman, his responsibility to maintain boundaries NEVER changes. He is held to a higher standard. No matter what, his responsibility is to protect the flock.

    Blaming Women for the Sexually Abusive Male Pastor by Ann-Janine Morey
    http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=959

  164. LT wrote:

    I completely agree with you. But when people like Mark Driscoll and Dino Rizzo are restored to ministry by ARC leaders before publicly acknowledging the truth about this misdeeds, I think we can all see that they are rushing these men back into the pulpits.

    You said that so much better than I could. The real process of restoration is noble, but it takes time and lots of pain [just ask Eagle!]. But they are taking short cuts, and sending these guys back into ministry without addressing the root issues.

    I’ve seen this same pattern of shortcuts in how ARC pastors are trained. I don’t think there are any educational prerequisites to become an ARC church planter, just 2 days of classes that are mostly about the mechanics of a church plant. No real theological substance. Their goal is to plant lots of churches as quickly as possible, and they don’t seem to have the patience to lay foundations carefully, or train leaders that have real depth and character. Not everyone in ARC is a scoundrel or a theological novice… There are some good people there. But the system seems to attract and reward leaders who are looking for shortcuts.

  165. I fear a cage wrote:

    During one of my self defense classes (I have my CHL) the female instructor talked about how too often we women have been pressured to “be nice, be sweet and don’t cause a scene.” And that carries over into situations when we are uncomfortable or even in danger. I found it quite true about myself, especially as a 3rd generation preacher kid raised in a strict gender roles household. The older I’ve gotten, however, and the further away from my upbringing I move, the more my streak of I Don’t Care What You Think is growing.

    It sounds very similar to my experiences growing up.

    I did a blog post or two about it (one link below), explaining how Christian gender complementarian teaching is really about the same thing as codependency and sets girls and women up to be easy targets for abusers.

    Christian Gender Complementarianism is Christian-Endorsed Codependency for Women (And That’s Not A Good Thing)
    https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/christian-gender-complementarianism-is-christian-endorsed-codependency-for-women/

  166. GSD wrote:

    Their goal is to plant lots of churches as quickly as possible, and they don’t seem to have the patience to lay foundations carefully, or train leaders that have real depth and character. Not everyone in ARC is a scoundrel or a theological novice…

    The faster you plant them, the more you can plant and the faster the Tithe$ come in.

    “The Tithes Must Flow.”

  167. Daisy wrote:

    Blaming Women for the Sexually Abusive Male Pastor by Ann-Janine Morey

    This article appeared in the Christian Century, October 5, 1988!

    So yeah. This problem has been around for a while.

  168. Btw folks….don’t just tell your daughters stories, practice with them several responses in different scenerios. I have done this with bullying in elemtary school and have moved into these scenerios as they are teens. It works because it gives them confidence.

  169. “The church membership was reportedly told that this was a simple case of marital infidelity.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    huh…. ‘a simple case of marital infidelity’.

    like, it’s not that big of a deal.

    eh, just a garden variety faux pas.

    methinks it’s one of those “doth protest too much” things.

    meanwhile, how vehement is Mosaic Church & Acts 29 in their opposition to 2 same sex couples, committed to each other with faithfulness and love? in their opposition to women in positions of infuence?

    Dustin broke his marriage vows, committed scarlet-lettered adultery (a the very least) and it’s described as a simple matter.

    Mosaic Church / Acts 29 = Hypocrisy Central.

  170. @ Law Prof:

    I have been in similar situations and regret not even walking out.

    A friend of mine visited a church last week with her 10 year old daughter (her husband is now a done after their Neo Cal takeover) . First thing in worship, the music guy (who looked 60!) reverently quoted Piper. She looked at her daughter and said, time to leave and they walked out. She wasn’t even there 5 min. She said it was all she needed to know. :o)

  171. @ Stan:

    I don’t take the Equally Yoked teaching into consideration any more.

    If a Christian woman is single and wants to be married, she really ought to consider the man’s character, not what the guys’ religious beliefs are.

    I’ve seen too many stories on the watch blogs and secular news of “godly”, regular church attending Christian men, who molest kids, abuse their wives, etc, to think there is any point any more in making sure any guy I date claims to be a Christian.

    If you look at the numbers, the women are in bigger supply than the men, so a woman’s chances of being able to even find a single Christian man to marry are low. That was true when I was in my 20s and 30s.

  172. Daisy wrote:

    I don’t take the Equally Yoked teaching into consideration any more.

    That is double-speak in the comp world, anyway. How is a couple equally yoked when one is given the authority, while the other must submit?

  173. Stan wrote:

    And thus, online dating websites in Dallas are full of gorgeous ~30 year old women who shove are you really a Christian litmus tests in guys’ faces from the get go.

    That was also fairly common among Christian dating services in the Eighties.

    And these Christian woman have such a Super-Spiritual definition of “Christian”, even Christ himself would have fallen short.

    Been there — want to see my scars?

    It also creates the mentality of the pastors are the only ones who are really good enough for all the pretty girls are the pastors…

    Alpha Male/Herd Bull/Paterfamilias has first pick on all Females, leaving the rejects and dregs for the Betas (never mind the Omegas). Including parading his Smokin’ Hawt Trophy before his inferiors.

  174. NJ wrote:

    It would be interesting to see Daisy’s take on this.

    I weighed in above, but here are some additional takes:

    If those women keep doing that, they will likely either end up staying single -because no normal guy will want to marry that-

    OR, (and since they are apparently into male headship stuff) they may end up marrying an abusive, selfish, and/or controlling husband.

    I feel sad for them. I used to buy into that stuff myself, but I was mostly blind when younger to how dangerous it is, or how counter-intuitive it is to getting married.

  175. Daisy wrote:

    @ Stan:
    I don’t take the Equally Yoked teaching into consideration any more.

    “Equally Yoked” was also the name of the big CHRISTIAN(TM) Dating Service in my area. That’s where I learned about “gorgeous 30-year-old woman who shove ‘are you really a Christian’ litmus test”s.

  176. NJ wrote:

    Burwell wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    His alleged Reformed credentials (from being affiliated with Acts29) aren’t worth jack squat.

    They were only good for VC dollars as he traveled around planting Acts 29 follower-factories.

    You’re probably right. I keep thinking these latest iterations of the church growth movement are destined to crash and burn at some point.

    But how much damage will they do in the meantime?

  177. NJ wrote:

    It would be interesting to see Daisy’s take on this.

    And a Post Script.

    These single women we’re talking about are at Matt Chandler’s church (or one like it?). If so.

    As a few others have mentioned in this thread, Chandler’s church bullied a woman into staying married to her pedo husband when she found out he was pedo (she left the guy anyway, good on her).

    If you’re a single Christian woman, do you really want to take dating / marriage advice from a church or group of people (i.e, complementarians) who will tell you that once you marry a pedo it’s your duty to stay married? Or to endure abuse for a season? Or to just stay in an abusive marriage and keep praying for the abuser and submitting to him?

    Chandler and other complementarians cannot even get married right, so why on earth would you uncritically accept any dating advice they give you??? I would steer clear of their relationship advice, or think long and hard about any they give.

  178. Daisy wrote:

    Chandler and other complementarians cannot even get married right, so why on earth would you uncritically accept any dating advice they give you???

    I meant “get marriage right.”

    Meaning, they teach some terrible things about marriage, things that are harmful to women.

  179. Lea wrote:

    They reject reality and substitute their own. Because Jordan was a wolf. And Karen was shot. None of their macho talk about protecting women actually means a thing when it comes down to an actual case, because you have to BELIEVE women and care about them and value them to actually protect them.

    I agree.

    Complementarians care more about rhetoric, maintaining their gender doctrine, and looking good on paper than they do in living, breathing women.

  180. This raises a question. How did he get a job with no medical or business/sales background so quickly?

    I’m not surprised, at all. He started the Mosaic Church which is very successful. Creating a model for a church and following-up by actually starting a church is all about business and sales. The product is different than the medical field, but the principles, I believe, are a natural fit.

  181. Anna wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    Is there something about Acts 29 that makes victims freeze and act like deer in the headlight? All that ‘conditioning’ by the pastor and his crew has to produce a ‘response’ accordingly, unless someone’s own sense of survival as a person with dignity kicks in.
    This is not an ‘Acts 29’ response to abuse. This is a normal response when abuse occurs. The perpetrator has groomed the victim on some level, and when they push further, the victim is confused and shocked and cannot react the same as if a stranger came up and groped them. The conditioning is the same with all sex abusers (not just pastors). The victim starts to question their perception to what happened – whether or not to accept any blame for the abuse. In most cases the victim has a close relationship with the abuser, which is really a double-bind situation.

    I want to reiterate this.

    If anyone to whom this has never happened thinks they know how they would or wouldn’t act in response to an incident like this, time to think again. (If you’ve had this happen or similar things happen and have a pattern as to how you responded, you will have more ability to predict, but can still be off.) However, most people overestimate what they imagine the strength of their response would be. “Freezing” is quite common when it’s actually happening, particularly if there is anything ambiguous about the situation, or if there is cognitive dissonance such as when it is perpetrated by a trusted person. (“This can’t be happening.”)

    People who hear or read about the incident have the benefit of knowing in hindsight what actually happened. Processing it as it is happening is a different thing altogether.

    I have seen people use it to blame the victim, typically implying there had to be consent: “If X had really been true, she would have done Y. That’s what I would do.”

    It’s just an example of people’s poor ability to predict their responses.

    And yes, a culture of women being “nice” certainly contributes to a decreased probability of an aggressive response to an assault.

  182. Lydia wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    Except Jordan Root, the child porn pedophile? He gets a pass.

    Pastor’s Court Favorite.

  183. mot wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    With women at the bottom of the spiritual food chain.

    They must really hate women!

    Just like Bros & Hos, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!

  184. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Equally Yoked” was also the name of the big CHRISTIAN(TM) Dating Service in my area. That’s where I learned about “gorgeous 30-year-old woman who shove ‘are you really a Christian’ litmus test”s.

    I am, in a sense, sad for the Christian women on those dating sites, or just in real life.

    You have genuine, single Christian women who very much want to marry a genuine Christian guy, and they may buy into “equally yoked,” so they feel it’s a sin or whatever for a Christian to marry a Non-Christian.

    Well, some men do present as being “Christian” I.R.L., or on dating sites but they act like vulgar pigs or sex obsessed teen boys. (I ran into them online, especially, on dating sites.)

    About 2, 3 years ago, there was a news story about Christian women using a Christian dating site to get dates.

    One guy made for a pretty convincing Christian.

    One of his lady victims said he knew his Bible really well, claimed to love Jesus, and they would e-mail on the site back and forth discussing the Bible and so on.

    This Christian woman really felt that the guy was in fact a Christian.

    He ended up raping her (and a few other Christian women) via that dating site.

  185. Lydia wrote:

    They often do it to female volunteers or staffers.

    Seen that up close, and I do not mean myself. They are definitely expendable, especially if they do not bow before this doctrine and if there is a male available to fill that position.

  186. Abi Miah wrote:

    “Freezing” is quite common when it’s actually happening, particularly if there is anything ambiguous about the situation, or if there is cognitive dissonance such as when it is perpetrated by a trusted person. (“This can’t be happening.”)

    Yes, yes, yes. Thank you for mentioning ambiguity as an important factor. And coming out of nowhere. I’ve seen that response in myself and in Gramp3 in a particular situation. I’ve seen it with abused children who do not know what the abusive adult (or another adult) wants, so they freeze.

    I would like to think I would have turned the table over, but I am not at all sure that I would have done that. Predators know which prey will fight, I think, and they bank on that.

  187. @ Stan:

    “I’m a young single man in Dallas and this is life. Dee one time asked me why young women go there with the comp doctrine. Aside from herd instinct, this is it: grossly exaggerated fear of fake Christians who aren’t in small groups out to get them. It’s echoed at Watermark too.”
    ++++++++++++++

    do you have ties to Dallas? seems like such a goofy, unbalanced place. i can’t help but think other areas in the US are more reasonable and sensible.

  188. Abi Miah wrote:

    And yes, a culture of women being “nice” certainly contributes to a decreased probability of an aggressive response to an assault.

    There’s the PARADOX:
    the more women ‘keep sweet’;
    the more men will take advantage abusively

    I suppose the corollary would be that if women don’t want to be abused, they must then take some responsibility for their own safety from the get-go, and then know what to do when/if attacked. Right now, younger women are more apt to comprehend this need, especially on college campuses AND in our military.

    Some young men have grown up watching their mothers take beatings and be hounded and abused. They saw their mothers try to please and try to ‘submit’, and the scenes they witnessed as small children have hurt their formation as young men. The ‘sins of the fathers’ thing comes full circle, and it cuts across all races, all economic levels, all social levels.

  189. Max wrote:

    Good Lord! I know I’m just an old fuddy-duddy sort of Christian … old and done, some would say … a baby-boomer in age and character surrounded by the culture of a Millennial generation … a dinosaur from the Mesozoic Era trapped in the 21st century … and I know that I’m not supposed to judge the outward appearance. But, take a gander at the Mosaic Church staff page. Whew, what a crew!

    They’re a bunch of kids! Sigh…

  190. mot wrote:

    Max wrote:

    The changes to Genesis 3:16 now read “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” The verse earlier stated “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

    I wonder of folks that believe this have ever heard of the New Testament and the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus. They love to live in the Old Testament.

    The NRSV puts it this way:

    To the woman he said,
    ‘I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;
    in pain you shall bring forth children,
    yet your desire shall be for your husband,
    and he shall rule over you.’

    I think it means, “S*x causes pregnancy.” 😉

  191. LT wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I realize some will see this as a mere “nude painting” but I studied Art History. This painting appears to have been done in the 20th century based on hair styles, fitness of the female form and technique. Notice the gold embossing overlaid directly unto the canvas. That was big around 1980-90’s. The content of the picture is also of an erotic nature, not of historical significance, such as a depiction of the Rape of the Sabines in the Renaissance era. You can judge for yourself. His posed reaction is what creeps me out. https://twitter.com/GozoYTristeza/status/775111002643918848

    I studied art history also back in the 80s, long before moving into current career; you’re absolutely right in your analysis, definitely NOT your classical nude painting à la Degas, Michelangelo, Rafael, Titian, Manet, Delacroix. This looks for all the world like one of those trashy 80s erotic paintings, done in the hackneyed style of those romance novel covers or the New Age erotic paintings.

  192. Friend wrote:

    The NRSV puts it this way:

    To the woman he said,
    ‘I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing;
    in pain you shall bring forth children,
    yet your desire shall be for your husband,
    and he shall rule over you.’

    I think it means, “S*x causes pregnancy.”

    Would it not be sinful to misrepresent the Holy Scriptures like those who have used the Bible to turn women into second class citizens.

  193. Ken G wrote:

    This raises a question. How did he get a job with no medical or business/sales background so quickly?

    He’s cute, he’s charismatic, he’s ambitious, he’s well-connected, he’s ruthless, he’s quite possibly capable of lying through his teeth. If you want a rainmaker in sales, at least for a time, those can be some beneficial qualities. I spent years in B2B sales, have seen the type who could lie to you and you know they’re lying, they know they’re lying, but you just can’t help yourself and find yourself buying into their quick talking pitch. What makes me think he’ll flame out, though, is sooner or later, your schtick wears thin and while you make sale #1, sale #2 becomes extremely hard to make because people know they can’t trust you. Saw those types come and go when I was in sales–their careers usually implode after a while and they bounce from company to company, place to place, buring bridges along the way (which Boles seems to have made a habit of). If he’s in medical device or pharma sales, he’ll likely go crazy from the hurry up and wait style, he’d be better suited to selling cars or office equipment.

  194. mirele wrote:

    Although I now wish I’d carried a sign saying “Jesus died for our sins, not Wayne Grudem’s male supremacist fantasies.”

    That pretty well sums up the problem with Wayne Grudem. May his house of cards blow apart in the wind.

  195. Max wrote:

    “I have lost my career, my reputation, and a lot more” (Dustin Boles)
    Consequences! Publish it on all the watchblogs, shout it from the housetops, fly it across cyberspace, print it in every church bulletin across America!
    Church leaders, there are consequences to such behavior. What David did in secret, God exposed to all of Israel! Once you cross moral boundaries of sin – once you violate the trust of your church members – you are no longer a “pastor” … you are a transgressor of the holy standard expected of your position and subject to consequences

    Paul stated in the context of talking about leaders that leaders who continued in sin were to be rebuked in the presence of all so that others (leaders) may take warning (I Tim 5:20). If these allegations are in fact true, isn’t this the case here with Boles? Shouldn’t Bowles be publicly rebuked vs. leaders of Mosaic church apparently trying to hide this and call his leaving just a normal regular transition?

    Maybe if churches starting publicly rebuking sinful leaders then as Paul states other leaders will have more of a fear of sinning like this?

    Also, perhaps these bible verses also apply:

    They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires,
    (II Tim 3:6)

    Verse 8 seems to indicate that this passage is especially talking about leaders such as Boles.

    Also:

    With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! (II Peter 2:14)

  196. Dave A A wrote:

    “And men, that should be an unbelievable weight on you. So when we find out that you’re hunting here, we’re going to shoot you. It’s even to the point where we’ve had discussions about putting your dumb picture on all of the screens and going, “Avoid this idiot.”’

    I find it extremely hard to believe he would put any current or potential tither out of his church for what he is describing here. I think this is just so much talk… Probably gave the women a false sense of security, too.

  197. Ken G wrote:

    I’m not surprised, at all. He started the Mosaic Church which is very successful. Creating a model for a church and following-up by actually starting a church is all about business and sales. The product is different than the medical field, but the principles, I believe, are a natural fit.

    You have a point, his church experience is actually experience in sales, isn’t it?

  198. Daisy wrote:

    Complementarians care more about rhetoric, maintaining their gender doctrine, and looking good on paper than they do in living, breathing women.

    Men have God ordained headship, no matter what. If they cut one woman some slack, their whole house of cards might fall.

  199. Nancy2 wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Complementarians care more about rhetoric, maintaining their gender doctrine, and looking good on paper than they do in living, breathing women.

    Men have God ordained headship, no matter what. If they cut one woman some slack, their whole house of cards might fall.

    No mercy was shown to Dr. Sherri Klouda and her family. If something that wicked could happen, the gates were opened to all kinds of mischief.

  200. mot wrote:

    Would it not be sinful to misrepresent the Holy Scriptures like those who have used the Bible to turn women into second class citizens.

    I really liked Lydia’s response to this:

    Lydia wrote:

    The most accurate translation would read more like this: because you turn to your husband (and not Me), he will rule over you.

    When turning was changed to desire around the 1300’s, it was easier to twist for the modern age. People equated it with s*x, weakness, etc, etc.

    The footnote in my NRSV says, “This divine judgment contains an old explanation of woman’s pain in childbirth, her s*xual desire for her husband (i.e. her motherly impulse, compare 30.1), and her subordinate position to man in ancient society, in contrast with the ideal equality of creation (see 1.27-28n.; 2.18-21n.).”

    In other words, it’s like an old story of how the turtle got its shell, and we don’t have to model our society according to ancient tales of pre-Israelite life. Correlation is not causation.

  201. Steve240 wrote:

    With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! (II Peter 2:14)

    Maybe this should be the church’s motto. They can paint it in gold behind the altar, or bandstand, or whatever they have.

  202. NJ wrote:

    What about the sort who have no problem with deception?

    My ex-son-in-law seemed to be one of those. He had me and the pastor and the church thinking he was godly husband material and did all the right courting things. Was he deceptive up front, or did he change for the worse, as people can do? All I know is that threatening to put his face on a viewscreen wouldn’t have protected my daughter a bit.

  203. siteseer wrote:

    I find it extremely hard to believe he would put any current or potential tither out of his church for what he is describing here. I think this is just so much talk… Probably gave the women a false sense of security, too.

    As a very bad patriarch, I have another daughter whose boyfriend a different (A29) church clamped down upon, such that the elders eventually broke them up. They put him in “church discipline” to “protect” her, ostensibly from his shallowness and shortage of godliness. Yet while he was at our house, he was mostly showing her Driscoll and Grudem videos and teaching her complementaionism. In retrospect I think they risked a potential tither because he didn’t play well with the elders.

  204. Law Prof wrote:

    LT wrote:
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    I realize some will see this as a mere “nude painting” but I studied Art History. This painting appears to have been done in the 20th century based on hair styles, fitness of the female form and technique. Notice the gold embossing overlaid directly unto the canvas. That was big around 1980-90’s. The content of the picture is also of an erotic nature, not of historical significance, such as a depiction of the Rape of the Sabines in the Renaissance era. You can judge for yourself. His posed reaction is what creeps me out. https://twitter.com/GozoYTristeza/status/775111002643918848
    I studied art history also back in the 80s, long before moving into current career; you’re absolutely right in your analysis, definitely NOT your classical nude painting à la Degas, Michelangelo, Rafael, Titian, Manet, Delacroix. This looks for all the world like one of those trashy 80s erotic paintings, done in the hackneyed style of those romance novel covers or the New Age erotic paintings.

    ROFL.

  205. @ Abi Miah:

    I appreciate you and Rebecca and the others who understand that you don’t know how you would react until you’re in a situation like this. I am a confident woman, I always have been. It has nothing to do with confidence. I reacted the way that I did because I was in shock and I thought I was the only one, at the time. Does he have a weird crush on me and I’m just now finding out after 4+years of friendship? So many things running through my head but I wanted it to go away. Later, I found out there were more women. There are so many layers to this and how this eventually all played out. I also very much appreciate Dee and Amy. They spent a lot of time researching. I couldn’t fight this fight alone anymore, I was worn out. So the hard work doesn’t go unnoticed and I’m very thankful for the people who support us and victims of sexual assault. Furthermore, I’m so thankful for the people who believe what I wrote. It’s a good feeling to be understood and I’m truly grateful for that.

  206. @ siteseer:

    Oh, just look closer and think harder. It’s an invitation for the “real” Christian men to help him root out the wolves and be rewarded accordingly. I won’t deny that seeker sensitive for hot girls and shepherding cult for everyone else is a brilliant business model.

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Ha! Good to know nothing is new. Of course, even every single Christian in the Metroplex goes to the same two giganto-churches that teach this, a fellow like me has a tough row to hoe.

    @ elastigirl:

    Live here, from elsewhere in Texas. It’s an overgrown plains city that thinks gigantic sports stadiums pass for culture. And gigantic churches pass for the Spirit. I don’t want to raise kids here.

    @ Daisy:

    Best wishes for your love life. I agree with that approach.

    Fortunately, since people at Watermark/Village are more than just Christians, their profiles will say they’re followers of Christ or something like that, so I can proceed at my own risk.

    I once had a match with a girl who went to Harvard for undergrad and was in medical school. I could see that she was a Chandlerite through Facebook, and didn’t talk to her. I could imagine how it would go. They just don’t hear or listen these messages, but they do hear TKNY saying that gospel™-centered churches are open minded, deep thinking, and challenging all the failed evangelical zeitgeists. He had me duped too. Other than that, the same mystery of why anyone is in an aberrant religious movement.

    That’s the thing about the original post by Dave A A, I promise you there are no atheists who want to pretend to be Christians for relationships with women who follow Matt Chandler’s standards of purity.

  207. Abi Miah wrote:

    ) However, most people overestimate what they imagine the strength of their response would be. “Freezing” is quite common when it’s actually happening, particularly if there is anything ambiguous about the situation, or if there is cognitive dissonance such as when it is perpetrated by a trusted person. (“This can’t be happening.”)

    20+ years ago I took a 6-week long self-defense course called Model Mugging. Full-body, full-force contact. It included been screamed at and sworn at by a man in full body armor. While many women learned how to fight, the teachers said they would freeze during the swearing. So at week 3 we were ‘innoculated’ with a torrent of profanity unleashed on us. We learn to protect ourselves despite it and stay focused. We also learned that people take orders, “Woman in adorable shoes with Pug dog, call 911 now!”

    I will say that my voice alone — that training — screaming, directing, ordering has helped me help other people. I stopped a gang one night at a gas station, who had surrounded the high school attendant in broad daylight. He’d moved away from their school not to be recruited. I was walking in to a bookstore in a dress and high heels to buy a gift. I whirled around walked out and SCREAMED at the gang member closest to the victim, “You WILL NOT LAY A HAND ON HIM. The police are on their way and YOU’RE GOING TO ALL GO TO STATE PRISON WHEN THIS IS OVER!!” He was so shocked. I walked in the bookstore and had them call 911. More screaming. I was screaming their license plate numbers. I threw off a gang of 16 members in multiple cars.

    There were men at the gas station, dads, pumping gas into SUVs etc. No one knew what to do.

    One man later said to me, when the police were leaving (the gang members had high tailed it out of there), “I’ve never seen anything like it.” Me: “Me neither. I’ve never seen a gang do that in broad daylight. Very scary.” This was suburbia where this took place.

    The man:”No, I’ve never seen anything like YOU!” I told him about Model Mugging. The orders you scream at people. It totally throws them off.

  208. Stan wrote:

    Another thing: what Chandler is too dumb to understand is that if he claimed to be a Calvinist 450 years ago, and believed against infant baptism, there’d be a screen posted somewhere that would have his picture, but instead of saying “avoid this idiot”, it would say “hunt down and kill this idiot”.

    Ain’t that the truth!

  209. Lydia wrote:

    Except Jordan Root, the child porn pedophile? He gets a pass.

    Because you see, he was repentant and submissive to his Villders. So couldn’t be a wolf.

  210. Steve240 wrote:

    Paul stated in the context of talking about leaders that leaders who continued in sin were to be rebuked in the presence of all so that others (leaders) may take warning (I Tim 5:20).

    There is very little accountability in New Calvinist ranks. Someone as off-track as Mark Driscoll (Boles’ idol) is already back in ministry.

  211. @ Rachel K:

    You are incredibly strong and I’m so thankful that you decided to speak out instead of letting this go on. I can imagine it’s come at a price. I hope you know there are so many that get it and believe you and are behind you and praying for you and the other victims.

  212. siteseer wrote:

    They’re a bunch of kids! Sigh…

    The American landscape is cluttered with New Calvinist churches which have pastors and “elders” in their 20s-30s. Good Lord, the youth group is running things!

  213. Stan wrote:

    Oh, just look closer and think harder. It’s an invitation for the “real” Christian men to help him root out the wolves and be rewarded accordingly. I won’t deny that seeker sensitive for hot girls and shepherding cult for everyone else is a brilliant business model.

    Is the goal to get the “wolves” into a shepherding situation? Do they actually kick men out of the fellowship? Or is it just said to create an atmosphere of everyone looking over their shoulder?

  214. @ Rachel K:

    Rachel, I am sorry for what you have gone through and am glad that this blog can be of some support toward you. It’s hard enough to go through what you went through without having others who really don’t know anything about how people typically react spouting off on what they would have done. They don’t know. The perpetrator was the person whose actions were calculated. I’ve seen this kind of thing go down before and sadly, in a large organization where the perpetrator was important to the organization, the people who are part of the organization often turn on the victim and shoot the messenger. It’s a whole new level of the abuse. Keeping your mouth shut is a way to avoid it, but does nothing to protect other potential victims. Thank you for the unselfishness and courage you are showing in speaking up.

  215. NJ wrote:

    What about the sort who have no problem with deception? His point about outward good behavior and godliness is a valid one, but I can see a guy professing interest in having kids and serving God just to get the gal; basically pulling a bait and switch. Since he’s the head of the house, she has to go along with what he wants, right?

    And, why hasn’t Jordan Root been labeled a wolf? If the shoe fits …….

  216. Steve240 wrote:

    With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! (II Peter 2:14)

    They spend so much time on the same few passages, such as those about gender roles or those they can use to shut down “gossip” but do they ever cover the passages about false teachers? This is a major subject in the NT! Yet, it rarely gets any attention.

    But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

    I have been wondering if redefining who Christ is through the doctrine of ESS is a form of denying the Master who bought them.

    For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption

    The stories of fleshly desires, sensuality, and corruption have become commonplace.

  217. Christiane wrote:

    s a minister in service to Our Lord, in order to abuse an innocent woman, he lost his ‘career’ along with ‘a lot more’

    I’ll nit pick.
    Boles didn’t “lose” anything. …….. he threw it all away all by himself!

  218. Nancy2 wrote:

    And, why hasn’t Jordan Root been labeled a wolf? If the shoe fits …….

    You’re not a wolf if you stroke the egos of the men in charge and say what they want.

  219. Stan wrote:

    It also creates the mentality of the pastors are the only ones who are really good enough for all the pretty girls are the pastors, but they’ll allow good church members to get a date, which is what I meant in my earlier post. Kind of like Federal Vision, but with sex instead of sacraments.

    You’ve got me thinking about a number of cult leaders who make out that having sex with the so-called prophet etc brings the followers close to “god”. Could it be this Boles guy was, at some level, feeling like he owned sexual rights to his followers? I think you’ve got something there with the Federal Vision comparison, but FV is confusing to me. Any further elaboration about that? Hmm sex instead of sacraments—- sexraments?

  220. @ siteseer:

    Yes. Jesus took the religious leaders of his own tribe –head on. He did not have words of tolerance and understanding for them unless sincere. He called them names and dissed them in front of their followers.

    He rarely talked about the pagan occupiers –which was the most important issue of that time to the Jews and a constant thorn in their side.

    Those facts are usually left out of sermons by today’s “religious leaders”.

  221. @ Lea:
    Whereas the not-a-wolf’s wife was bitter, unforgiving, and rebellious against the Villders’ wise counsel.

  222. @ Rachel K:

    Thank you for telling your side. That is so very important for people to hear. And they rarely hear details. Most people have no idea the time and effort that goes into the pervert’s grooming process. They tend to hear of the event with no details and chalk it up to some uncontrollable urge or moment of passion. They don’t get the con man grooming process whether it is a pervert molester of grown women or a pedophile. They don’t understand the premeditation that goes into it. Or, The long term deception involved. It helps people understand the depths of deception and perversion. It’s a way of life for the pervert.

  223. Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    @ Melissa:

    Melissa, you know what is also disturbing about this situation is the bold and clear sexual harassment. Many companies have a zero tolerance to sexual harassment as it opens the company for legal risk. But looking at porn on your computer at work creates a volatile and disturbing workplace. People get fired for it. So for that to happen in that setting is especially troubling. That is awful that it happened.

    Hi Eagle, I’m just now seeing this. What’s crazy is secular companies are often able to clearly spell out sexual harassment and properly deal with it should it occur. I cannot say the same for American churches and other such “Christian” affiliations..

  224. Lydia wrote:

    @ LT:
    Three years is a long time to have an actual boss and be expected to produce in the real world. :o)

    Lols! When I first read this I thought you were referring to the Daystar Marketing Director having to “produce” in the back of Marcus Lamb’s limo every day for three years. I was a tiny bit shocked. Then I realized you were talking about Boles and had a good chuckle.

    Yes, a man who loves the beach and has been a pastor for the last 20 years might find punching a clock and having real supervision a little tedious. If he’s in pharmaceutical sales he’ll still have a nice T&E account but less flexibility. If that doesn’t work out maybe he could get a 3 year gig with Joni ; )

  225. okrapod wrote:

    But when Boles seems to be saying that other women in the church apparently welcomed his ‘touching’ I am inclined to believe it.
    I am thinking that predators may have a lot of co-conspirators.

    My thought is that a woman paralyzed by fear would be thought of by Boles as welcoming his intrusion.

    Either that, or if he perceived that she hated it and was paralyzed by fear, horror, or any other negative emotion, he’d be drawn to go back again and again to enjoy the feeling of power over her.

    Or both at the same time. He could very well be telling himself that she’s enjoying it as much as he is. That would be most convenient, actually, making her complicit and just as guilty as he is himself. Thereby canceling out his guilt…?

    Sick.

  226. Dave A A wrote:

    I think you’ve got something there with the Federal Vision comparison, but FV is confusing to me. Any further elaboration about that?

    I have tried to save important comments containing the history of these groups/beliefs at the top of the page under the Interesting tab, Books/Movies, etc. tab.

    Here’s one on Federal Vision.

    “Gram3’s post on 5/24/16 about the roots of Patriarchy that we are seeing in Christian churches, NeoCalvinism:
    I would add to BradFuturist that Rousas Rushdoony was the fount of Reconstructionism (the Reformed version of Dominionism) which led to Federal Vision which plagues many PCA churches to this day. Federal Vision is Doug Wilson’s theology, though it is taught by Peter Leithart who is still inexplicably tolerated by the PCA.
    Dominionism was also promoted heavily in charismatic circles via TBN and other outlets. The connection between the charismatic form of Dominionism and the Reconstructionist version was Gary North who is Rushdoony’s son-in-law.
    Reconstructionism is a perversion of standard Covenant Theology. Some consider it merely an extreme form of Covenant Theology, but I disagree. As Brad said, they wish to establish a theocratic state modeled on the OT theocracy. They take that as a pattern for how we should do government and church and family. This includes the idea of Patriarchy.
    Federal Vision shifted the focus from establishing a theocracy to establishing a church that is the center of everything. There is much talk of priests, fathers as priests of their family, etc. Rather than a focus on individual conversion, the FV focuses on baptism and communion. One becomes a Christian by being baptized and one is baptized because one is born into a family headed by a Christian man.
    The word “covenant” is plastered all over a lot of different things, and I think it is important to keep those things separate lest we blame people who hold to standard Covenant Theology for the weirdness.
    I think a lot of Reconstructionist baggage got ported over to the YRR by guys reading Greg Bahnsen who was an affiliate of Rushdoony. He was a brilliant guy who was highly respected as an apologist in the Van Til school as was Rushdoony.
    Gothard is another thing entirely, as far as I know. Wheaton in the 60’s was not a Reformed stronghold. I believe that Gothard’s views were primarily shaped by a fundamentalist mindset in reaction to a liberalizing culture. The answer was more laws and rules rather than an emphasis on regeneration and the internal work of sanctification in the individual believer. He began his work helping parents who were frustrated with their teenagers’ rebellion. Any of us who have raised teenagers can identify with their desperation for answers, and Gothard offered a System for that just like our current Female Subordinationists offer a System which supposedly produces happy marriages and families.
    I think there was a lot of cross-pollination among these various streams of thought back in the 60’s and 70’s to get us where we are today. The Christian homeschooling movement is another place where ideas crossed over. Rushdoony decreed that homeschooling is the only Biblical way.
    The bottom line is that people will use whatever means works if what they desire is to rule over others. We have all been useful idiots, but typically in the present it is much easier to see when other people are being useful idiots. Retrospectively, some of us have been able to realize that we were useful idiots.
    That’s enough for a comment box. If you Google these names and movements, you will find a wealth of information.”

  227. LT wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ LT:
    Three years is a long time to have an actual boss and be expected to produce in the real world. :o)
    Lols! When I first read this I thought you were referring to the Daystar Marketing Director having to “produce” in the back of Marcus Lamb’s limo every day for three years. I was a tiny bit shocked. Then I realized you were talking about Boles and had a good chuckle.
    Yes, a man who loves the beach and has been a pastor for the last 20 years might find punching a clock and having real supervision a little tedious. If he’s in pharmaceutical sales he’ll still have a nice T&E account but less flexibility. If that doesn’t work out maybe he could get a 3 year gig with Joni ; )

    Maybe he can find a harem of new victims to harass there. Especially if it’s a “good old boy” corporate culture and there are women working there who really, desperately need the paycheck. Jobs are hard to come by in this economy.

  228. More on Federal Vision teachings/history:

    Posted by Brad/FutuistGuy on May 23, 2016:
    I thought about some key indicators, and remembered that a lot of them are in the lists for this post I wrote on “Calvinistas” a few years ago. Although Shepherding-type authoritarianism isn’t only in Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan or Pentecostal settings, there is a common paradigm of thinking that always separates things into classes and categories, and that similarity goes far deeper than the doctrinal differences.
    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/calvinistas/
    FWIW, here’s a bullet list of some of the items on those lists, and I’ll leave the descriptions of them over there.
    * Dualism
    * Reductionism
    * Perfectionism
    * Patriarchalism
    * Totalism and Authoritarianism
    * Dominionism
    About the only other thing I think I’d add to this is something having to do with the ways these groups tend to “collaborate.” If they engage in ministry partnerships at all, it’s like to be where there is high overlap on those other essential approaches to thinking processes, systems, personal growth or behavior modification, authority and subservience, and stance toward culture. And the rest of the churches-theologians-Christians are labeled as either non-gospel, heretical, etc.

  229. BL’s post on 5/24/16 adding to the information about Patriarchy’s players in American churches:
    Excellent synopsis, Gram!
    The charismatic river of Dominionism that came through the shepherding/discipleship movement was via Ern Baxter. He had worked with William Branham from whom Dominionism came through the Manifest Sons of God, The Latter Rain, and the End-Time Harvest Movements.
    This particular branch also flows through Mike Bickle (IHOP), C. Peter Wagner (NAR, & ‘Convening Apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles’), Francis Frangipane (River of Life), Che Ahn (former PDI pastor for 19 years, and one the NAR’s apostles), Kenneth Hagin & Kenneth Copeland (health & wealth quacks), Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, Lou Engle, James Goll, Chuck Pierce (Kansas City ‘prophets’), Jack Dennison (CityReach), Paul Cedar (Mission America Coalition), Ed Silvoso (Transformations), Tom White (City-Wide Prayer Movement), George Otis (Sentinel Group), Loren Cunningham (YWAM), Os Hillman (Marketplace Leaders), John Dawson (Taking Our Cities for God), Rick Warren (PDL), Bill Bright (Campus Crusade).
    That’s not an exhaustive list. The above folks are connected and interconnected together in mulitple ways.
    Finally, one pivotal man who connects the charismatic stream of C. Peter Wagner & the reformed stream of John Piper is Ralph Winter (US Center for World Mission, Perspectives on the World Christian Movement). Winter’s teachings on the Abrahamic covenant (as being the only covenant) – that this (the Abrahamic Covenant) is the ‘secret mission’ of the church.
    Quoting Winter:
    “Neither Matthew 26:28 nor mark 14:24, in the scene of the Last Supper, speak of the “new covenant, They read, “this is my blood of the covenant” not, as does Luke 22:20, “the new covenant in my blood.”
    “Apparently the word “new” is not the principal point of the passage but rather the fact that this act of outpoured blood finally ratifies and enables the same covenant in a new and ultimate sense. The sacrifice of the Cross is thus, at the very least, a definitive renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant, as we have already seen.”
    So, there you have it. There is no new covenant. Just a ‘ratification’ and ‘enabling’ of the Abrahamic covenant…
    .
    Terms to search: City Transformations, Seven Mountains Mandate, Marketplace Movement, Prayer Marching, Taking Our Cities for God, Spiritual Mapping, Spiritual Warfare, Latter Rain, Manifest Sons of God, Coalition on Revival, Global Mapping Project, The Lausanne Covenant, The Lausanne Movement, Loving Our Cities to Christ,”

  230. @ Velour:
    Federal Vision, in addition, leans heavily on living out your faith and walking your talk. Salvation is not complete in Christ, but the believer has a part in “working out [his] salvation with fear and trembling”.

    It becomes very legalistic. Preferences become precepts. People begin to judge each other based on outward appearance.

    It can be very confusing. After all, shouldn’t Christians walk their talk? Shouldn’t they be living out their faith? The question becomes, exactly what does that look like?

  231. @ mirele:
    Thanks for your work.

    I think you have a winner with “male supremacist.”

    “Penis House” in big letters with a slash. Same with Male Supremacist.

    It would assault the sense of self righteousness.

  232. Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    You know what angers me about all this? All the crap about sexual sin, what is said about gays and gay marriage, the way people are slammed if they sleep with their girlfriend/boyfriend, etc… THEN you have sexual assault, rape, child sex abuse, etc.. given a pass? As they say in the military…WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!!

    I’m with you Eagle. I think it’s high time that Christianity starts rethinking its old and cherished dogmas about human sexuality with an eye for a realistic and responsible pragmatism. I know this won’t sit well with many here, but oh well as they say.
    The old paradigms, formulas, and absolute proscriptions are not working and have created a bizarrely skewed sexual universe, almost completely disconnected from practical and sane reality.

  233. @ siteseer:

    There are either are no wolves and they’re just decent Christian men who think making out with a girlfriend is OK, or there are plenty of girls there who have no interest in “purity” and it is known. But he wouldn’t dare use the bully pulpit on the Dallas pretty princesses as he does the stupid boys.

    Young people graduate college, move to the big city, and want to make friends with other Christians at churches. Young men will go to churches where there are pretty girls, just like a bar. Leave one of these churches, and all your cool new Christian friends and the pretty girls vanish. And thus, you have young guys willing to go along with some pretty weird stuff.

    I didn’t go The Village, but I went to a church that was great until they decided they should hire people from The Village and Acts29 in order to be “cool”, and thus the takeover was on. I had enough of a taste of the system.

    @ Dave A A:

    Good overview from R. Scott Clark, who also gives the reasons it’s so difficult to define:

    http://heidelblog.net/2013/11/for-those-just-tuning-in-what-is-the-federal-vision/

    Basically, ministers can relinquish communion to the disobedient.

    Remember the mentions of Darrin Patrick having indiscretions with women when he was removed, and Tullian Tchividjian. There was a post here on John Howard Yoder, an otherwise esteemed Mennonite theologian, who convinced women that extra-marital sex with a spiritually worthy man, ie him, was beneficial:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/02/10/john-howard-yoder-using-theology-to-defend-pacifism-and-the-sexual-abuse-of-women/

  234. Lea wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    And, why hasn’t Jordan Root been labeled a wolf? If the shoe fits …….

    You’re not a wolf if you stroke the egos of the men in charge and say what they want.

    Suck up, Kick down.

  235. LT wrote:

    Notice the gold embossing overlaid directly unto the canvas. That was big around 1980-90’s.

    The erotica equivalent of a Velvet Elvis?

  236. Law Prof wrote:

    If he’s in medical device or pharma sales, he’ll likely go crazy from the hurry up and wait style, he’d be better suited to selling cars or office equipment.

    Or his body on a street corner, if that selfie pose of his is any indication.

    (Nothing says brain-dead mattress-back bimbo like…)

  237. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Stan:

    “I’m a young single man in Dallas and this is life. Dee one time asked me why young women go there with the comp doctrine. Aside from herd instinct, this is it: grossly exaggerated fear of fake Christians who aren’t in small groups out to get them. It’s echoed at Watermark too.”
    ++++++++++++++

    do you have ties to Dallas? seems like such a goofy, unbalanced place. i can’t help but think other areas in the US are more reasonable and sensible.

    Well, the Dallas Megachurch whirl WAS the setting for “Good Christian Bitches”, both the book and TV series. According to episode synopses, they even had Pastor Grinning Ed and his Seven Day Sex Challenge.

  238. Lydia wrote:
    <blockquote
    I don’t even know who Marcus Lamb is! Lol!

    Oh how I envy you. He’s the founder and owner of Daystar TV. I’m not sure how you’ve missed this guy with your background in mega ministries. On the mega circuit he’s as ubiquitous as a red plastic cup at a frat party . Picture five bottles of Jet Black Just For Men glopped onto a meticulously groomed goatee and jawline beard plus giant eyebrows and curly semi-mullet, circa 1990’s. He’s on Daystar five days a week and speaks at most the big megas. He sounds just like Zach Galifianakis when he does his effeminate Southern accent a la Dale Baskets or Marty Huggins in The Candidate. I strongly suspect that Zach G is channeling Marcus in those characters because he uses Marcus’ effeminate mannerisms as well.
    .
    Marcus sits on his overstuffed studio furniture and weeps, like really weeps, every five minutes during fund raising season which seems to be once a month. If you fast forward through the commercials and the tear jerker promo vids of starving kids with flies on their faces that have nothing to do with paying for the chauffeurs and stylists and high lifestyles that Daystar offerings really fund, it’s pretty funny because he starts serious then breaks into the weep. He gets serious again then five minutes later starts right back in with the weeping. During the fund raisers he sometimes gets confused and he forgets what he’s weeping about and he flubs the story lines. He has the emotional stability of Nathan Lane in The Bird Cage. I can’t imagine how the Marketing Director survived 3 years of that. Oh wait, I can (picture Liza Minelli singing the Money song in black fishnets).

  239. GSD: thanks for writing about ARC and their training process. More people need to hear this message. ARC is bigger than Acts 29. They have well over 500 churches. They hold these “meet-ups” at different cities all over the country almost every week. They don’t care if you have a theology degree or any experience. It’s mostly about entertainment anyway. So if you’re a stand-up comic who knows some good guitar players and singers just step right up to the Pentecostal version of Who Wants to be a Millionaire!

  240. Rachel K wrote:

    I appreciate you and Rebecca and the others who understand that you don’t know how you would react until you’re in a situation like this.

    I have a vivid memory of my first week in high school when right in front of me someone maliciously shoved a developmentally disabled kid down into his locker. I watched and did nothing. I felt ashamed that I did nothing and swore I would not stand idly by again.

    Since then I’ve witnessed some pretty outrageous actions in my life and each time prepared me to act the next time but when encountering a largely new situation I am still largely dumbstruck and only till later am clear headed enough to act. It has taken me decades to figure this out but these abusers and bullies figured it out in grade school. While you and I spend little of our time preparing how to respond to abusers or bullies, the abuser seems to spend nearly every waking moment figuring out how to take advantage of us. Against their level of evil determination no wonder abusers like Boles typically get the advantage.

  241. Lydia wrote:

    Thanks so much for telling your experience. It’s how others learn.

    Amen Lydia. While direct experience is a strong teacher, reading someone’s story also prepares me to identify and respond to abuse. Yet another reason authoritarian “pastors” and their enforcers don’t like all this “gossip”.

  242. Someone gave me access to a copy of Driscoll’s Sunday sermon, and I have started transcribing it. It’s hard for me to do that, because there is just so much wrong here. Let me start first with the scripture he was talking about:

    Ruth 1:1-3

    1 In the days when the judges ruled, there was a famine in the land. So a man from Bethlehem in Judah, together with his wife and two sons, went to live for a while in the country of Moab. 2 The man’s name was Elimelek, his wife’s name was Naomi, and the names of his two sons were Mahlon and Kilion. They were Ephrathites from Bethlehem, Judah. And they went to Moab and lived there. 3 Now Elimelek, Naomi’s husband, died, and she was left with her two sons.

    Now, this extended passage is from 8:56 to 14:56 in Driscoll’s Sunday sermon. It includes a portion where he has the married men stand and he lectures them. The one thing that completely *infuriates* me about this is how Driscoll twists the scriptures to make Elimelech, the husband of Naomi and the father-in-law of Ruth, into, and I quote, “a lassic quasi-spiritual but not highly committed man.” There is NOTHING in the text which indicates Elimelech was like this at all. Driscoll makes these assumptions because Elimelech moved his family from Bethlehem to Moab during a famine–you know, when people are starving. Driscoll fails to understand the basic point of the book of Ruth, which is that Ruth, a Moabite, is an ancestress of the great Jewish King David, and she was accepted among the Jewish people. Driscoll is going about this completely opposite to the text.

    So here, following, is seven minutes of Driscoll. And yes, there are some sexist gems in here, along with some unfounded assertions stated as fact.

    “You men need to know that it’s not just food that we are to provide. It is community for our families, so that our wives, if God is pleased enough to give us the gift of a wife, that she would have godly relationships and friendships with godly women. That our children would grow up having relationships with godly children and families. That if and when the day comes for our children to marry, that they could marry believers, that we would have a church for them to participate in, where they could come into God’s presence and be under God’s teaching and in relationship with God’s people.

    “Elimelech was a classic quasi-spiritual but not highly committed man who moved his family without thinking, “where are we going to go to church? Who will we have as friends? Who will be my wife’s prayer support. Who will be the guys I do life with? Where will the relationships be? Who will my children grow up with? What will they learn about God? If and when the day comes for them to marry, who might they marry? He doesn’t think of any of those things. Instead, he just moves his family, puts bread on the table, but he doesn’t put any other provision in their life. Elimelech is a failure.

    “I’m going to ask all the husbands and fathers, now, please stand. If you’re at The Trinity Church, I want you to know, I am a husband and a father. You husbands and fathers, you husbands and fathers, you husbands and fathers, it is our responsibility to lead our family. It is your responsibility and your responsibility and your responsibility to lovingly, humbly, generously, wisely, faithfully, consistently, diligently and biblically lead your family.

    “Your children are your responsibility. Your wife is your responsibility. The well-being of your family, the flourishing of those with your last name is your responsibility. It’s OK if the school helps you, but it’s your responsibility. It’s ok if the church helps you, but it’s your responsibility. It is OK if other families help and serve, but it is your responsibility. Do you pray for your children? Do you pray with your children? Do you pray for your wife? Do you pray with your wife? Do you help your wife have relationships with godly women? Do you help your children have relationships with godly women? Are you the one setting the temperature in the home and leading the way in the family?

    “I need you to know that when a woman converts, statistically, her husband and children do not. When a man converts and walks with Jesus, statistically, his wife and children do. You know why? Because God’s word is true and you and I are the head of the home. That doesn’t mean we’re the boss or the bully, that we get to intimidate or domineer, it means we are to lovingly, humbly serve in the purposes of God and that we set the pattern and precedent for the rest of our family.

    “If you’re frustrated with your wife, let me tell you this: she is a garden with a gardener. If you’re frustrated with the condition of your children, you are their first pastor. You have an opportunity and an honor to read the bible with them, to pray with them, to choose relationships for them, to bring them into healthy, loving community. And so long as I have the honor of being the pastor here at The Trinity Church, I want to call you men to this high calling. I want you to know that God the Holy Spirit wants you to achieve humble, godly leadership for you and your family. For you men who have walked in wisdom and there is flourishing and fruitfulness in your family, I want to say thank you on behalf of your family and the Lord Jesus. And I want you to be available to mentor, to love, to encourage, to befriend, to instruct and correct other men.

    “For those of you men who have spent your life like Elimelech, doing the minimum, having the lip service for God but not lifestyle with God, only making financial but not spiritual provision for your family, I hope this would be a warning to you as you see what happens to Elimelech and his two sons, that this would be the day when there’s a change in your family where you become like a patriarch and then your wife and children love God, love you and follow in your example so that you’re the first link in a long chain of people who love and serve the God of the Bible. You can do this. By God’s grace, you can do this.

    “No excuses. Elimelech had tons of excuses: down economy, bottom fell out of my job, can’t make ends meet, not my fault, things are out of my control. If you don’t take care of your family, no one else will. If you can’t lead your family, no one else will. If you don’t enable your family to flourish, no one will. God has given you a precious gift. He has given you a woman. God has given you a precious gift. He has given you children. They are a blessing; they are also your responsibility. Amen? I love you men. Let me pray for you and then I’m going to ask you to take a seat.

    “Holy Spirit, I would pray that you would fill these men with wisdom, with power, that, Lord God, they would take upon themselves this great responsibility that so many in the culture have simply dropped. The majority of children go to bed tonight without a father. So many women of the men in their life as nothing but a source of pain. Lord God, I pray for the men here at The Trinity Church, that we would lead humbly, lovingly, sacrificially, biblically, wisely. That we would pray with our wives and we would pray for our wives and we would pray with our children and we would pray for our children. We would make sure that God’s word was opened in our home. That we would have the hard conversations with the people we love to help lead them in your purposes. And if we have been foolish or when we have been foolish like Elimelech that we would have the humility to apologize to them, to repent to you to see a transformation and change in our family. And Lord God, I pray for my friends who are heading forward in a path of death as Elimelech did, that they would turn around and return to you and bring their family with them today. In Jesus’ good name. Amen. You men may be seated. I love you.”

    I still have 45 minutes left to transcribe.

  243. @ Velour:

    Thank you so much for these reminders. They do help and the mean a lot to me on an emotional level. But also, some donors have expressed gratitude for the reminders, as well. {{{hug}}}

  244. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thank you so much for these reminders. They do help and the mean a lot to me on an emotional level. But also, some donors have expressed gratitude for the reminders, as well. {{{hug}}}

    You are welcome, Jeannette. It’s my little ministry.

  245. Concerning the OP, I haven’t gotten through all the comments, but I did want to point out that at least in my state (Colorado), what is described here is a class 4 felony. I know. My former so called pastor preys on the abused and vulnerable (but pretty) women in his cngregation. One of those was my dear friend. She was not the first nor has she been the last. A friend convinced her to sue both him and the church – his wife is the administrator and has done the cover up dirty work, being aware and not taking steps to protect made her complicit – and they chose, at the final moment when they realized she was willing to go to court and not back down, to settle out of court. Unfortunately, there is a 3 year statute of limitations on this crime and by the time myself and my friend were recovered enough to even ponder this, the time had run out. I tell anyone who will listen, and he has a reputation around town. But when you are inside the walls of that cult, you are encouraged to isolate from outside influences that distract. Walking away was psychologically one of the harder things I’ve done. I had been a leader there for several years. Anyway, it’s late and I’m starting to ramble, so good night.

  246. mirele wrote:

    “Elimelech was a classic quasi-spiritual but not highly committed man who moved his family without thinking, “where are we going to go to church? Who will we have as friends?

    I guess, “what food will my family put in their mouths?” is not a legitimate fear compared to where they will go to church…. ugh.

    So is this the first installment of, ‘you have no excuse to ever move away or stop attending here?’

    I have to hand it to you, Mirele, it’s very hard to transcribe when the subject matter is disgusting.

    And, for MD’s record, I AM NOT ANYONE’S GARDEN. I am a human being.

  247. Nancy2 wrote:

    To all of the ladies out there: If a man (even a “pastor”) touches you beneath the table, it’s okay to tell him not to touch you again — out loud, no matter who is within earshot. If the man pays you no mind and touches you again, it’s okay to pour hot coffee or iced tea in his lap, or to stick a fork in his hand …… or his leg ……. or pretty much his anywhere.

    Yes, Nancy2! Men like this are counting on you being quiet. I know. When I was 15 yrs. old a man I didn’t even know was assaulting me in a dark movie theater while I was with my grandmother. I was frozen with fear. Another time when I was a young lady and lived in NYC, I was followed by a sexual pervert and again, I was terrified and eventually walked into a shoe store to get away from him. I’ve encountered these kinds of men more than a few times in my life and believe me, what they are counting on is the female being scared and quiet. So, this is what I’m going to tell you ladies: The minute a man tries to pull this nonsense on you, SHOUT AS LOUD AS YOU CAN AND TELL HIM TO GET AWAY FROM YOU! Glad I got that out. 😉

  248. Gram3 wrote:

    brad/futuristguy wrote:
    ESV — Everyman’s Supremacist Version.
    I think that the ESV translation oversight board wants to enshrine Grudem’s “contribution” to theology, and they are willing to throw principles of translation to the wind in order to do that. The fact is that Grudem has devoted his life to the subordination of the Eternal Son and of women, and that contribution is being challenged now by people other than egalitarians. It’s a kind of magical thinking, IMO. If they make their interpretation into a translation, then that makes it the Word of God. Very weird and not well thought out for the long term, IMO.

    You’re right, Gram3. Gen 3:16 will be their new Clobber verse, as you like to say. I converse with New Calvinists frequently on a Calvinist Facebook site, and I can tell you that Grudem has indoctrinated his male followers sufficiently. Recently, I brought up the topic of ESS on a thread where a Grudem article was being posted. It was then that I encountered ESS supporters and realized that this teaching has now become embedded in Calvinist circles.

  249. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    @ Gram3:
    I think the lot of these men want women subservient to men for eternity
    If women are subordinate to men, as Christ is subordinate to the Father, then it is a (theo)logical conclusion from the underlying assumptions of Eternal Subordination of the Son that women are eternally subordinate to men because Christ is subordinate to the Father in eternity.
    Maybe that’s an oversimplification of the assumptions of ESS/ESF/ERAS — but it seems to me it is a justified conclusion from carrying out the core of those assumptions about subordination.

    I know what ESS stands for, but what do ESF & ERAS stand for?

  250. Max wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    the new ESV version was intentionally changed just to support the hyper-Calvinist complementarian bias in Genesis 3
    Yes, it appears that the New Calvinists had to rethink the first version of the ESV to eternally secure their comp view, since there will be no future revisions of that translation.
    The changes to Genesis 3:16 now read “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” The verse earlier stated “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
    My dad always warned me that women were a contrary bunch! ;^)

    Well….this is what happens when your motto is: Always Reforming. Now they’re reforming the Bible because it just wasn’t good enough to be left alone.

  251. By the way, in case anyone wonders what I mean, the Calvinists love the term, “Semper Reformanda.”

  252. Darlene wrote:

    It was then that I encountered ESS supporters and realized that this teaching has now become embedded in Calvinist circles.

    The splintered nature of the local church creates many fundamental weaknesses, and this is one of them. <stuckRecordAlert> So: the local church is divided into many small para-church congregations that are affiliated, not with each other – i.e. with the truly local church – but with regional para-church denominations. When I say “para-church congregations”, I’m using this as what I believe is a more accurate term for what are usually called “churches”.</stuckRecordAlert>

    As Jesus stated: if you only love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Anyone can do that.

    Usually, local para-church congregations would generally rather affiliate with something they can comfortably agree with (in terms of liturgy, or doctrine, or history, or tradition, or whatever is most important to them) than put in the hard yards of building relationship with those awkward and embarrassing charismatics / romanCatholics / anglicans / lutherans / etc next door. In doing so, they forego a necessary discipline: learning to love people other than themselves.

    This in turn means that they form their doctrines in an echo chamber, and strange ideas become accepted practice because they are never challenged. The same happened with the false notion of “covering” in the UK: it was simply proved by repeated assertion, in cultures where it was never properly challenged.

    More could be said, but I need to write a marketing brochure for a film-making company and the work day has begun in Blighty…

  253. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    More could be said, but I need to write a marketing brochure for a film-making company and the work day has begun in Blighty…

    P.S. Commenting on TWW is a great way of putting off doing actual work (copywriters are notorious for procrastinating).

    But I don’t think that’s in the spirit of why Deebs started TWW in the first place…

  254. So the guy got into “ministry” to have access to women – other people’s wives, included?

    And some “Christian therapists” go into counseling to have access to the private lives of women? And then they wreck havoc on these same women they are supposed to help?

    Brings to mind the priests who become men of the cloth to have access to altar boys, or children in general.

    When is the church going to learn to filter out the predators? Instead of enabling them. Discernment and exhortation – gifts of the Spirit – are needed.

  255. Eric Camp hopes it works out for Boles. Victim comes second. Another day, another scandal.
    I feel bad for the victims but I have to be honest, if there is a God, then he probably isn’t in a church.

  256. Stan wrote:

    Remember the mentions of Darrin Patrick having indiscretions with women when he was removed,

    What was the weird wording they used? Something about indiscretions but not sex?

    I’m surprised we haven’t gotten more details on that one!

  257. @ mirele:

    Driscoll is writing fiction here! How can people listen to this gibberish???

    Wanting your family not to startle from famine is not a man fail. Gah!!!!

    I just finished a book about shame and she did all her beginning research on women but decided to sum up some interviews with men at the end and she said one of the biggest sources of shame was this idea that they are not meeting some manliness standard and it is the kind of stuff pushed on them by men like Driscoll.

    Also, not a single thing he said comes from the book of Ruth. I can’t wait to hear the later part of the series about Naomi being a terrible schemer and Ruth being a shameless hussy for throwing herself at Boazs feet /s
    Thank you for the transcription.

  258. siteseer wrote:

    where they will go to church…. ugh.

    That part… Does he know he ‘church’ was not the same in ancient Israel? Kids didn’t go to Sunday school and some didn’t sit in a room and listen to a preacher tell they were gardens?

    And if I start talking about the garden stuff I will be getting way too graphic so suffice it to say NO.

  259. @ LT:
    Cable TV was considered the last refuge of scoundrels by some megas in the 1990s populated by the likes of Robert Tilton and such. That attitude changed with the emerging selfie nation. :o)

  260. Velour wrote:

    I think there was a lot of cross-pollination among these various streams of thought back in the 60’s and 70’s to get us where we are today. The Christian homeschooling movement is another place where ideas crossed over. Rushdoony decreed that homeschooling is the only Biblical way.
    The bottom line is that people will use whatever means works if what they desire is to rule over others. We have all been useful idiots, but typically in the present it is much easier to see when other people are being useful idiots. Retrospectively, some of us have been able to realize that we were useful idiots.

    Great comment …. yeah, the ‘thread’ of crazy runs through the whole lot . . . I can see in ‘homeschooling’ a vehicle for isolation and control, if the ‘homeschooling’ process is carried out under the auspices of certain influences with agendas, rather than for the good of the child.

    I once met a woman in the library who was nervous, fearful, and homeschooled. I don’t know her faith, but she mentioned a news media that specialized in extremes, and she said she wanted to shield her children from ‘the world’. For me, I listened, I said little (I have regretted this), and I felt pity for the woman and sadness for her fear, which was real and painful to her. I thought how vulnerable she was to being manipulated by them what creates that fear and uses it to control people.

    Great comment, identifying that the ‘crazy’ runs through a lot of ‘programs’ that people have embraced unawares. All that is good connects up and so it is with all that is evil. Thank God for the Holy Spirit’s gift of discernment.

  261. @ Christiane:
    It was the communes and other hippies who started home schooling for the same reasons- get kids away from the establishment. When I was a kid there was a big group of them about 45 min from where I grew up. They grew their own food and milked cows. They were sort of new age. So nothing new.

  262. Max wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    That’s the wrong Mosaic Church location. Boles was at Mosaic Church Gulf Coast. Staff there: http://mosaicgc.com/staff/

    I got that. My correction got hung up in moderation because of the two quotations, I suppose. Thanks for noticing in any case and advising me of my initial error. 🙂

    Christiane wrote:

    Max wrote:

    But, take a gander at the Mosaic Church staff page. Whew, what a crew!

    I did. Goodness!
    http://thisismosaic.org/connect/pastors-leaders/

    YIKES, wrong crew!
    here’s the Gulf Coast site:
    http://mosaicgc.com/staff/

  263. Good old Marcus Lamb. Can’t stand the guy. I used to watch his wife Joni Lamb on tv many years ago. But I didn’t like listening to or watching her husband. He was one slick dude. Gave me the creeps. Then my later mother-in-law, watched him on tv all the time. For some reason she liked him. She even supported him each month. When she moved into an assisted living home, we found out about this and it had to stop. We had her use our home address as hers. We kept getting mail from the Daystar network and asking her to give more and more. It got to the point where it was harassment. I wrote to Daystar several times about this to stop the letters. Finally I had to call them and tell them to stop. That she was ill and had a couple of strokes. They weren’t very nice to me, but I did get thru to them. So yes, Marcus could weep and cry all he wanted, but he was also a shyster, in my opinion.

  264. mirele wrote:

    If you’re frustrated with your wife, let me tell you this: she is a garden with a gardener

    Was he quoting the great theologian, Doug Wilson, here?
    Maybe he should copy Wayne Grudem and rewrite the Bible.
    What’s next? Was Boaz a heretic for giving in to the will of a woman and marrying Ruth?
    I bet MD will never quote what Ruth said in 1:16 …… “for,whither thou goest , I will go, and where thou lodgest, I will lodge, thy people shall be my people, and thy God, my God.”
    A woman said it, so it must not matter.

    A wife is a garden? Are single women fields that have not been plowed?

  265. Darlene wrote:

    I know what ESS stands for, but what do ESF & ERAS stand for?

    There’s a huge amount of vocabulary, and a lot of technical theological definitions. The ESS / EFS / ERAS etc. acronyms are described and lots of links that will help with the definitions are at this post on Jenny’s Stool:

    https://jennysstool.com/the-essefseras-debate/

    Following, for your reference, are links to the current debate regarding the Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS), Eternal Functional Subordination (EFS), Eternal Relationship of Authority and Submission (ERAS)–ESS/EFS/ERAS vs. Eternal Generation of the Son (EG) and Eternal Procession (EP) debate, in chronological order. This is not an exhaustive list. This page will be updated regularly. Corrections and additions to this list are welcome.

  266. Darlene wrote:

    Always Reforming. Now they’re reforming the Bible because it just wasn’t good enough to be left alone.

    Well, since the Bibles they had before didn’t “transform” them, we can expect anything from this crew. These folks need a heaping dose of “transformed theology” not more renditions of “reformed theology.”

  267. Nancy2 wrote:

    Are single women fields that have not been plowed?

    Or if they have been, they should be shamed publically, even if you were the one doing the ‘plowing’.

    This man is disgusting and he should not be allowed anywhere near ANY of the books about women in the bible. There aren’t so many that he couldn’t skip them, but he enjoys reading in. Wasn’t he the one who thought Esther was a bachelorette?

  268. Darlene wrote:

    Always Reforming. Now they’re reforming the Bible because it just wasn’t good enough to be left alone.

    At best, this is Compulsive Tinkering.
    With something that really should not be tinkered with.

    At worst, it’s Comrade Trotsky’s Doctrine of Continuous Revolution.
    (Or should that be “Continuous Reformation”?)

  269. Nancy2 wrote:

    Are single women fields that have not been plowed?

    In Driscollian, they’re failed penis homes.

  270. Christiane wrote:

    Great comment …. yeah, the ‘thread’ of crazy runs through the whole lot . . . I can see in ‘homeschooling’ a vehicle for isolation and control, if the ‘homeschooling’ process is carried out under the auspices of certain influences with agendas, rather than for the good of the child.

    Check out Homeschoolers Anonymous (https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/) for some of the real horror stories. You’ll see a lot of familiar names recurring in their archives.

  271. Lydia wrote:

    @ LT:
    Cable TV was considered the last refuge of scoundrels by some megas in the 1990s populated by the likes of Robert Tilton and such. That attitude changed with the emerging selfie nation. :o)

    Including Dustin Boles Bimbo Selfie.

  272. siteseer wrote:

    I AM NOT ANYONE’S GARDEN. I am a human being.

    Yes, you are! The “I am a gardener, you are a garden” mumbo-jumbo is a long way from Christ’s words to us “I am the vine, you are the branches.” But, of course, the average New Calvinist doesn’t understand that Jesus’ words are gender-less … just as they don’t spiritually comprehend Paul’s words “There is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    Reformed theology is dangerous stuff, that’s why wise Southern Baptists dropped it over 100 years ago as their default belief and practice … only to be found sitting on their hands now as New Calvinism sweeps through SBC.

  273. Lea wrote:

    Thank you for the transcription

    Where is this transcription? I can’t find the Mirele’s comment.

  274. Max wrote:

    The “I am a gardener, you are a garden” mumbo-jumbo is a long way from Christ’s words to us “I am the vine, you are the branches.” But, of course, the average New Calvinist doesn’t understand that Jesus’ words are gender-less … just as they don’t spiritually comprehend Paul’s words “There is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    Yes, this. The verbal and theological gymnastics I was exposed to at SBTS to justify certain beliefs cured me of any reverence I might have had for the religion. I would respect them much more if they were intellectually honest, like their dreaded “liberals”, and just said, “We disagree with Scripture, and here’s why.”

  275. siteseer wrote:

    I AM NOT ANYONE’S GARDEN. I am a human being.

    a human being made in the image of God and gifted with a soul coming directly from God, with all the dignity that flows from your Creator who made you a ‘being’

    That is what neo-Cal complementarians have tried to take away from women, but they cannot take the dignity that God has given these women, so they instead display ample contempt for that dignity, much to their DISCREDIT in all other areas of their man-made theologies

    there are some basics that are a ‘given’ and no ‘verses’ taken out of context OR CREATED BY NEO-CALS in their ESL version can trump those basics, no

  276. Bridget wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    Thank you for the transcription

    Where is this transcription? I can’t find the Mirele’s comment.

    I don’t know?? It used to be there! Maybe there was some reason it got taken down. It wasn’t complete.

    To sum up, Naomi’s husband was a man fail, and not a good jew, because he took his family somewhere where they could actually eat in the middle of a famine without considering where his church home would be.

  277. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I would respect them much more if they were intellectually honest, like their dreaded “liberals”, and just said, “We disagree with Scripture, and here’s why.”

    Heh. I’m not sure the liberals all say ‘we disagree’ but sometimes yes. I think my sunday school class just said to throw out one of the proof texts from timothy.

  278. Lea wrote:

    To sum up, Naomi’s husband was a man fail, and not a good jew, because he took his family somewhere where they could actually eat in the middle of a famine without considering where his church home would be.

    From this and the few other folks who have responded to her transcript I gather Driscoll is off the deep end again with his sermons. So just can’t get to the comment.

  279. @ Bridget:

    PS – I would not be surprised if Driscoll has an issue with the transcription being posted. Although, if he had the audio out on the internet . . .

  280. Lea wrote:

    To sum up, Naomi’s husband was a man fail, and not a good jew, because he took his family somewhere where they could actually eat in the middle of a famine without considering where his church home would be.

    Classic example of a man who can’t see what’s tattooed on his own forehead.

    Driskle’s new followers need to heed his sermon, then preach it back to him. Then send him back to Seattle, whence he ran like a coward who fills his boots when the pickings are rich but isn’t so committed when the adulation dries up. Then makes sure he stays there until he’s fulfilled the responsibilities he claims to have had.

  281. @ Darlene:
    Darlene wrote:

    Max wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    the new ESV version was intentionally changed just to support the hyper-Calvinist complementarian bias in Genesis 3
    Yes, it appears that the New Calvinists had to rethink the first version of the ESV to eternally secure their comp view, since there will be no future revisions of that translation.
    The changes to Genesis 3:16 now read “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” The verse earlier stated “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”
    My dad always warned me that women were a contrary bunch! ;^)

    Well….this is what happens when your motto is: Always Reforming. Now they’re reforming the Bible because it just wasn’t good enough to be left alone.

    I was just reading up on this earlier this morning at Scot McKnight’s blog. I suspect this is just now starting to blow up in their faces like the ESS debacle. It would be interesting to see if they’ve messed up any other passages.

    Somebody named Doug in the comments said Essentially Sexist Version?

    Another person said, ESV 2021: The More Permanent Edition.

  282. Bill M wrote:

    While you and I spend little of our time preparing how to respond to abusers or bullies, the abuser seems to spend nearly every waking moment figuring out how to take advantage of us. Against their level of evil determination no wonder abusers like Boles typically get the advantage.

    Great point. I think that abusers are so pained and chaotic inside that creating chaos and pain for others makes them feel better somehow. Since they are constantly chaotic and pained, they need frequent fixes of afflicting others. I am not a psy*.

  283. Darlene wrote:

    I know what ESS stands for, but what do ESF & ERAS stand for?

    EFS is Eternal Functional Subordination/Submission. ERAS is Eternal Relations of Authority and Submission. Same doctrine with different makeup.

  284. Bridget wrote:

    From this and the few other folks who have responded to her transcript I gather Driscoll is off the deep end again with his sermons. So just can’t get to the comment.

    It is in this comment:
    @ mirele:

  285. Gram3 wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    I know what ESS stands for, but what do ESF & ERAS stand for?

    EFS is Eternal Functional Subordination/Submission. ERAS is Eternal Relations of Authority and Submission. Same doctrine with different makeup.

    Again, ChEKA changes its name to OGPU which changes its name to NKVD which changes its name to KGB…

  286. Gram3 wrote:

    Great point. I think that abusers are so pained and chaotic inside that creating chaos and pain for others makes them feel better somehow.

    Wonder how much of that is “I’m miserable; why should THEY be happy? Why should They have it better than MEEEEEE?”

  287. Nancy2 wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    If you’re frustrated with your wife, let me tell you this: she is a garden with a gardener
    Was he quoting the great theologian, Doug Wilson, here?

    “PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!
    PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!
    PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”

  288. Lea wrote:

    Stan wrote:
    Remember the mentions of Darrin Patrick having indiscretions with women when he was removed,
    What was the weird wording they used? Something about indiscretions but not sex?

    “I did not know that woman in a Biblical sense.”
    — Doug Phillips ESQUIRE

    “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”
    — William J Clinton

    CAESAR AUGUSTUS: “(long Roman name) – have you slept with my daughter?”
    ROMAN ARISTOCRAT: “Caesar, I…”
    CAESAR AUGUSTUS: “Answer the question.”
    ROMAN ARISTOCRAT: “Not slept, Caesar…”
    CAESAR AUGUSTUS: “Ah! Perhaps you did it on a couch? Or standing up?”
    — BBC miniseries production of I, Claudius

  289. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Great point. I think that abusers are so pained and chaotic inside that creating chaos and pain for others makes them feel better somehow.

    Wonder how much of that is “I’m miserable; why should THEY be happy? Why should They have it better than MEEEEEE?”

    Are they really miserable, or do they just feel entitled to take whatever they want? Do they just get joy from that?

    Have been ruminating on narcissists much the last few months and thinking about this…Ultimately, I don’t’ know what good it does to ask why. Practically, I don’t know that it matters to those who have been abused unless knowing the ‘why’s’ of things is helpful. Often we never know why.

  290. @ mirele:

    Just the typical: misapplication of the Old Testament by the theologically ignorant for the theologically ignorant. Just another gutter snipe passing along bits and pieces of things he likely heard someone else say, then misapplying them in an attempt to establish himself as an authority.

  291. LT wrote:

    Picture five bottles of Jet Black Just For Men glopped onto a meticulously groomed goatee and jawline beard plus giant eyebrows and curly semi-mullet, circa 1990’s.

    That’s just GROTESQUE.
    Like a Rule 63 genderflip of Tammy Bakker at her low point.

    He’s on Daystar five days a week and speaks at most the big megas. He sounds just like Zach Galifianakis when he does his effeminate Southern accent a la Dale Baskets or Marty Huggins in The Candidate. I strongly suspect that Zach G is channeling Marcus in those characters because he uses Marcus’ effeminate mannerisms as well.

    Isn’t “effeminate” what we used to call “Swishy” or “Faggy”?

    “Johnny, Are You Queer?”
    — Josie Cotton

  292. Christiane wrote:

    there are some basics that are a ‘given’ and no ‘verses’ taken out of context OR CREATED BY NEO-CALS in their ESL version can trump those basics, no

    Can’t you say the same about Jehovah’s Witnesses and their Bible translation?

  293. @ Lea:
    Hee! I heard an old pastor say he isnt qualified to teach on the wife passages because they aren’t about him. :o)

  294. Daisy wrote:

    If you look at the numbers, the women are in bigger supply than the men, so a woman’s chances of being able to even find a single Christian man to marry are low. That was true when I was in my 20s and 30s.

    Especially if the Single Christian Man (like me) just gave up after experience after experience with Christian Dating Services (including one called “Equally Yoked”) and the type of Single Christian Women they attract.

  295. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Concerning the OP, I haven’t gotten through all the comments, but I did want to point out that at least in my state (Colorado), what is described here is a class 4 felony. I know. My former so called pastor preys on the abused and vulnerable (but pretty) women in his cngregation. One of those was my dear friend. She was not the first nor has she been the last. A friend convinced her to sue both him and the church – his wife is the administrator and has done the cover up dirty work, being aware and not taking steps to protect made her complicit – and they chose, at the final moment when they realized she was willing to go to court and not back down, to settle out of court. Unfortunately, there is a 3 year statute of limitations on this crime and by the time myself and my friend were recovered enough to even ponder this, the time had run out. I tell anyone who will listen, and he has a reputation around town. But when you are inside the walls of that cult, you are encouraged to isolate from outside influences that distract. Walking away was psychologically one of the harder things I’ve done. I had been a leader there for several years. Anyway, it’s late and I’m starting to ramble, so good night.

    I don’t know if there are laws in my state for CSA, but I did not go forward because I was (and still am) afraid of my former pastor/abuser. After spending time dissecting all of the veiled threats in his sermons & bible studies, along with a subsequent meeting with his daughter, I learned that I have good reason to fear him. Some CSA survivors hide out of sheer terror – because the wolf really is a wolf – he will attack and try to cause harm, even bodily harm. So my only outlet for the most part is to advocate in the shadows for CSA victims, not drawing too much attention to myself. I hope those who are reading this blog and following this story will understand that CSA victims are victims of very sick men, who when pushed against the wall with accusations, might lash out in dangerous ways.

  296. siteseer wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    From this and the few other folks who have responded to her transcript I gather Driscoll is off the deep end again with his sermons. So just can’t get to the comment.
    It is in this comment:
    @ mirele:

    It’s there now. But, earlier, every time I clicked on her name it didn’t take me to the comment. I even looked to the comment manually and it wasn’t there.

    It must have been down for a bit.

  297. @ mirele:

    Calvary Chapel pastors are quite fond of this technique too. Hueying stuff outta’ the Hebrew Bible (sometimes referred to as the OT) and contriving an application that must apply in the here and now.

  298. @ Law Prof:

    I think we both said pretty much the same thing. Papa Chuck (founder of Calvary Chapel) refined it to an art form back in his heyday.

  299. @ Muff Potter:
    sometimes the greater the emphasis on ‘The God of Wrath’, the weaker the image of Jesus Christ is among some who see the OT as more representative of the character of God than the revelation of Him by the coming of Jesus Christ among us.

  300. Max wrote:

    Yes, it appears that the New Calvinists had to rethink the first version of the ESV to eternally secure their comp view, since there will be no future revisions of that translation. The changes to Genesis 3:16 now read “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.” The verse earlier stated “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

    The standard ESV certainly has its problems, but the ESV Study Bible is the bad boy – it’s loaded with Calvinist commentary. In his commentary on Genesis 3:16, T. Desmond Alexander writes that this verse “indicates that there will be an ongoing struggle between the woman and the man for leadership in the marriage relationship. . . . Eve will have the sinful ‘desire’ to oppose Adam and assert leadership over him.”

    Ongoing struggle between woman and man for leadership … sinful desires … oppose … assert. Boy, these Calvinists sure know how to put contrary women in their place!

  301. Lydia wrote:

    @ Anna:
    What is CSA?

    Not to answer for Anna, but I *think* in this case it means clergy sex abuse. Sometimes this acronym is confusing as other people use it for child sex abuse.

    Anna wrote:

    because the wolf really is a wolf – he will attack and try to cause harm, even bodily harm

    You have to protect yourself, because sometimes you’re the only one who will.

  302. Max wrote:

    Eve will have the sinful ‘desire’ to oppose Adam and assert leadership over him.”

    Which is them reading in like crazy.

  303. siteseer wrote:

    And, for MD’s record, I AM NOT ANYONE’S GARDEN. I am a human being.

    Really. What is the first thing you need to have a good garden? Good dirt.

  304. Lea wrote:

    Not to answer for Anna, but I *think* in this case it means clergy sex abuse. Sometimes this acronym is confusing as other people use it for child sex abuse.

    The acronym thing is a source of irritation for me too. I sometimes feel like an Egyptologist on a dig having to excavate another 100 meter grid or so to try and decipher some cartouche on a granite plinth inscribed during the reign of…
    Well, you get the picture.

  305. Max wrote:

    Ongoing struggle between woman and man for leadership … sinful desires … oppose … assert. Boy, these Calvinists sure know how to put contrary women in their place!

    Those bubble boys obviously haven’t crossed a real “contrary woman” yet. Well, either that, or they are intentionally hiding from them in their little bubble, and issuing decrees from a “safe” zone.

  306. Muff Potter wrote:

    I sometimes feel like an Egyptologist on a dig having to excavate another 100 meter grid or so to try and decipher some cartouche on a granite plinth inscribed during the reign of…

    Or a Cold War Kremlin-watcher trying to translate the Marxspeak and decipher the reality behind Pravda & TASS’s official Party Line pronouncements.

  307. Muff Potter wrote:

    @ Law Prof:

    I think we both said pretty much the same thing. Papa Chuck (founder of Calvary Chapel) refined it to an art form back in his heyday.

    Another reason why I have NEVER trusted Calvary Chapel.
    (Besides dodging the full-auto barrage of Bible Bullet Thoughstoppers…)

  308. Nancy2 wrote:

    Well, either that, or they are intentionally hiding from them in their little bubble

    And excommunicating them when they find them!

    Women are scary. If I thought they had any proper education I would say they grew up with kipling and took it a bit too much to heart (The female of the species is more deadly than the male 🙂

  309. Law Prof wrote:

    Just the typical: misapplication of the Old Testament by the theologically ignorant for the theologically ignorant.

    “When the blind lead the blind…”

  310. Lea wrote:

    Women are scary. If I thought they had any proper education I would say they grew up with kipling and took it a bit too much to heart (The female of the species is more deadly than the male

    They obviously haven’t read any Kipling. If they had, their own translations would have been published.

  311. Lea wrote:

    Are they really miserable, or do they just feel entitled to take whatever they want? Do they just get joy from that?

    Have been ruminating on narcissists much the last few months and thinking about this…Ultimately, I don’t’ know what good it does to ask why. Practically, I don’t know that it matters to those who have been abused unless knowing the ‘why’s’ of things is helpful. Often we never know why.

    I’m no expert but there does seem to be a deep seated rage that drives them to harm others. I do think it is the closest thing to joy that they experience. Just based on my own observation. The thing it’s most important to understand about them is that they don’t change.

  312. Lea wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Or the acronym for the original Southern Baptists’ country:

    HA! That too. Forgot about that one(it doesn’t actually come up all that often).

    Interesting thing about that video.
    The first two flags have prominent CROSSES. The first is some sort of Christian flag and the second an 1861-pattern Stars & Bars with the stars arranged in a cross. (Gives a whole new meaning to the term “Starry Cross”.)

    (Incidentally, the 1861-pattern Stars & Bars (the one with three stripes and a circle of 7 to 13 stars) is the LEAST likely to get used by the Klan or Skinheads. But if you see an 1861-pattern Stars & Bars with the stars arranged in a letter “A” instead of a circle, you’re seeing history — that was the Command Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, Genl Robt E Lee commanding. Where you see that flag, you’d find “Marse Robert”.)

  313. The more stories I read on WW, the more I am convinced that the “g*d” that is being worshiped by particular bad actor of the current story is the “g*d” of the growth/prestige of the specific Church/movement and the “Celebrity” pastor/theologian associated/leading with said organization. That is why victims of said “Celerity” are thrown under the bus…. these victims expose that the said “apostle” or organization is behaving in manner not consistent with their claims of superiority of the rest of us pewpeons.
    In contrast, I am always reminded of the parable of how JC leaves the 99 to search for the lost 1… I never really understood that story until reading of these stories here on WW…. if the Celebrity preachers/churches/orgs were really following JC, they would be concerned for the victims; in contrast they over and over again through the victims under the bus…

  314. Muff Potter wrote:

    Dave (Eagle) wrote:
    You know what angers me about all this? All the crap about sexual sin, what is said about gays and gay marriage, the way people are slammed if they sleep with their girlfriend/boyfriend, etc… THEN you have sexual assault, rape, child sex abuse, etc.. given a pass? As they say in the military…WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT!!
    I’m with you Eagle. I think it’s high time that Christianity starts rethinking its old and cherished dogmas about human sexuality with an eye for a realistic and responsible pragmatism. I know this won’t sit well with many here, but oh well as they say.
    The old paradigms, formulas, and absolute proscriptions are not working and have created a bizarrely skewed sexual universe, almost completely disconnected from practical and sane reality.

    Jenell Williams Paris, Ph.D. Professor, Anthropology at Messiah College has published a book: THE END OF SEXUAL IDENTITY: Why Sex Is Too Important to Define Who We Are.

    Good read. Available through Amazon, or Intervarsity Press here:

    https://www.ivpress.com/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=6850

  315. siteseer wrote:

    I’m no expert but there does seem to be a deep seated rage that drives them to harm others. I do think it is the closest thing to joy that they experience.

    I do not know. It is very hard for me to understand. It’s much easier to see it as selfishness with no regard for others than active rage…

  316. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    If you look at the numbers, the women are in bigger supply than the men, so a woman’s chances of being able to even find a single Christian man to marry are low. That was true when I was in my 20s and 30s.

    Especially if the Single Christian Man (like me) just gave up after experience after experience with Christian Dating Services (including one called “Equally Yoked”) and the type of Single Christian Women they attract.

    I have had good experiences with eharmony.com. That was about twelve years ago, so I don’t know what they are like now.

  317. mirele wrote:

    I still have 45 minutes left to transcribe.

    Ya know, there are movies about a wife “with a gardener,” remarkably similar to movies about a wife with a pool boy, plumber, etc. It’s just a really wrong metaphor.

  318. Stan wrote:

    Tough Guy Matt Chandler:

    so we become more and more able to show great mercy to others

    Like Karen! So much mercy shown…

  319. Darlene wrote:

    SHOUT AS LOUD AS YOU CAN AND TELL HIM TO GET AWAY FROM YOU!

    Another approach, which might be easier in a group, for more timid people or those who have trouble finding words under stress: Gasp loudly and stare and point at the evildoer. This shows others that YOU are not the weirdo, that you have been harmed or offended by the person you are pointing at. All eyes will lock on the evildoer, and you will probably be treated with concern.

    I have practiced this in the mirror and done it in real life.

  320. @ Friend:

    If the person were in reaching distance, I this might be a good opportunity to get in a good, old fashioned, dramatic movie slap.

    Stan, I tried to read through that Chandler sermon but finally gave up. Man, do these people ever shut up?? I did catch this part: “I have a really dark heart, all right.”

  321. Stan wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    You’re welcome! It’s why I’m here. Another good selection from Tough Guy Matt Chandler:
    http://thevillagechurch.net/resources/sermons/detail/what-is-a-member/

    He says “our women” too.

    Matt Chandler is a twinkle-eyed, master manipulator of words.

    “There is not an explicit text in the Bible that says, “You must join a church.” That verse does not exist. That would be awesome, but it doesn’t exist. Now, there is enough biblical commanding occurring in the Scriptures that I believe it leaves no doubt that obedience to God and obedience to the Word of God demands, not suggests, but demands that you join a local congregation in a way that’s much more robust than your attendance on the weekend.

    Let me show you. We’re in Hebrews 13. We’re going to pick it up in verse 17. It’s just going to start with a very difficult word. My first argument for church membership or, I believe, the Bible’s first argument for church membership is actually how the church is to be structured. Let’s look at verse 17. What’s the first word? “Obey…” You can do better than that. What’s the first word? “Obey…” We’re going to talk about this, because this is crazy. I’m nervous. I’m starting to sweat, all right. This is not an easy topic.

    Let’s do it. Like I said, I’m just going to kind of stand on this. If you have a problem, it’s not with me. “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.” This sets up an interaction of relational structure that most of us don’t care for. Here’s what it is. I want to just kind of filet the thing open here.” Matt Chandler

    In the original text at the site, the words “obey” are bolded.

  322. Lea wrote:

    To sum up, Naomi’s husband was a man fail, and not a good jew, because he took his family somewhere where they could actually eat in the middle of a famine without considering where his church home would be.

    So he should have stayed in Seattle?

    Oh, sorry, wrong man-fail. 🙁

  323. Stan wrote:

    He says “our women” too.

    Oh, he’s getting a little more respectful of female members at his church. For years, he called them “our girls.” But, still sounds like cattle in a corral.

  324. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Or a Cold War Kremlin-watcher trying to translate the Marxspeak and decipher the reality behind Pravda & TASS’s official Party Line pronouncements.

    Ah yes… which guy in a homburg is standing next to which other guy in a homburg at Lenin’s tomb…

  325. Nancy2 wrote:

    Those bubble boys obviously haven’t crossed a real “contrary woman” yet.

    I keep thinking enough contrary women will rise up within New Calvinist ranks and start dragging their sorry husbands/boy friends out of the mess.

  326. Bridget wrote:

    That would be awesome, but it doesn’t exist.

    So we are just going to pretend it does anyway!

    These people are so transparent. Never is it mentioned how you determine who is actually your ‘leader’.

  327. Lea wrote:

    this might be a good opportunity to get in a good, old fashioned, dramatic movie slap.

    I agree. Dramatic reactions are needed to force people to see abuse. If they can’t resist talking about it, that could actually help under many circumstances.

    The secret silent stuff, taboos and shunning, just promote an atmosphere where abuse can flourish.

  328. @ Bridget:

    “Now, there is enough biblical commanding occurring in the Scriptures that I believe it leaves no doubt that obedience to God and obedience to the Word of God demands, not suggests, but demands that you join a local congregation in a way that’s much more robust than your attendance on the weekend.”
    +++++++++++++++

    the purpose of this sermon is job security for professional christians.

    “in a way that’s much more robust..” is so professional christians can have a good level of job satisfaction and ease & convenience.

  329. Nancy2 wrote:

    Those bubble boys obviously haven’t crossed a real “contrary woman” yet.

    Lord have mercy! I pity their sorry a$$es when they do!

  330. Bridget wrote:

    In the original text at the site, the words “obey” are bolded.

    Problem is, in the text of the Bible, “obey” does not appear. Chandler is making stuff up and throwing in histrionics on top of that.

  331. Lea wrote:

    Never is it mentioned how you determine who is actually your ‘leader’.

    Whoever won the Game of Thrones and Holds the Whip over you, that’s who.

  332. Friend wrote:

    Another approach, which might be easier in a group, for more timid people or those who have trouble finding words under stress: Gasp loudly and stare and point at the evildoer.

    Sounds like something out of the Invasion of the Body Snatchers remake.

  333. Max wrote:

    I keep thinking enough contrary women will rise up within New Calvinist ranks and start dragging their sorry husbands/boy friends out of the mess.

    Start dragging husbands/boyfriends out of the mess??? No. I’m more contrary than that. If the men don’t have sense enough to walk out on their own, I say, “Hey, boys! Good luck with the soprano and alto parts on the songs, teaching the children’s classes, the all male kitchen committee, and the preparation of the covered dishes. “

  334. Nancy2 wrote:

    If the men don’t have sense enough to walk out on their own, I say, “Hey, boys! Good luck with the soprano and alto parts on the songs, teaching the children’s classes, the all male kitchen committee, and the preparation of the covered dishes. “

    All the enablers will yell, ‘they’ll starve’, or ‘they’ll just eat take-out’. 🙂

    To pull this off, the ‘enablers’ have to get it that some ‘discomfort’ for these guys may be therapeutic, and make them think twice about what they have been putting the women through. In short, a reality check. 🙂

  335. Gram3 wrote:

    Problem is, in the text of the Bible, “obey” does not appear. Chandler is making stuff up and throwing in histrionics on top of that.

    I know. And the people will treat what Chandler says as if it is God himself speaking. I wish people in the pews would view all teaching as the “teacher’s interpretation” of the scripture instead of like it is God’s word itself.

  336. Bridget wrote, quoting Mr Chandler:

    There is not an explicit text in the Bible that says, “You must join a church.” That verse does not exist. That would be awesome, but it doesn’t exist. Now, there is enough biblical commanding occurring in the Scriptures that I believe it leaves no doubt that obedience to God and obedience to the Word of God demands, not suggests, but demands that you join a local congregation in a way that’s much more robust than your attendance on the weekend.

    No. Obedience to God, and to the scriptures he has given us, first demands that the multiplicity of local “churches” repent of their factional, divided state, dismantle their man-made walls of division, and submit to one another in love, making it their first priority to be one, even as Jesus and the Father are one.

    There are explicit bible texts that condemn the founding of a separate local congregation. But in a vast, centuries-long, committed act of collective rebellion, thousands of “churches” have agreed to pretend that those texts don’t matter. Indeed, it’s the only thing those “churches” can agree on.

  337. Bridget wrote:

    Matt Chandler is a twinkle-eyed, master manipulator of words… ‘What’s the first word? “Obey…” You can do better than that. What’s the first word? “Obey…” We’re going to talk about this, because this is crazy. I’m nervous. I’m starting to sweat, all right. This is not an easy topic.’

    Chandler? Not an easy topic for him? He is nervous? Spare me, his world revolves around Hebrews 13:17.

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  339. You see, that page was from 2013, and now Matt Chandler is in charge of Acts29. So maybe in that new, or latter-day if you will, chapter in the book of Acts, it will say you must join a church!

    I did not intend this thread to be about my dating life or Matt Chandler, because it’s about the victims. What I’d like to say to Rachel is: I believe you, because I’ve seen the behavior of men who follow Matt Chandler and Mark Driscoll’s sex advice, as we can assume Dustin Boles does by Mosaic’s Acts29 affiliation. You did the right thing, because if you follow Chandler and Driscoll’s teachings, they absolutely prescribe public exposure of sin for the laymen. You are not bad or dumb for thinking you could trust a married pastor to have a platonic friendship with you. And, I would believe that it’s not about you, it’s how he feels the women at his church in general, and you were available.

    I’ve seen Matt Chandler and his followers who love heaping shame, guilt, and unworthiness on decent young Christian men for having healthy libidos, occasional masturbation, PG-rated sexual contact from years ago, and such. But watch him shrug his shoulders at this kind of violent deviance from one of his cash cows. What a bully, what a coward, what an egomaniac, and what an idiot*.

    *: Chandler couldn’t pass seminary classes. http://www.thevillagechurch.net/the-village-blog/thoughts-concerning-seminary/

  340. @ Stan:

    “I had an undergrad in Bible that had prepared me to handle the Greek (thanks Dr. Knight) and taught me where to look to find answers to questions that would arise in study.”

    Interesting, was this George Knight, III of infamy?

  341. Bridget wrote:

    Interesting, was this George Knight, III of infamy?

    I saw this before and had the same question.

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    not suggests, but demands that you join a local congregation in a way that’s much more robust than your attendance on the weekend.

    Nick, I apparently missed the part from chandler about your attendance needing to be more than the weekend! Ridiculous.

    One of the things that bothers me about that sermon is that he starts off talking about how the church is the people and not a building or organization that you join. And then he just drops all that. Frustrating.

  342. Bill M wrote:

    Chandler? Not an easy topic for him? He is nervous? Spare me, his world revolves around Hebrews 13:17.

    One of their primary clobber verses. I wonder if “OBEY” is the translation in the Permanent ESV.

  343. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    No. Obedience to God, and to the scriptures he has given us, first demands that the multiplicity of local “churches” repent of their factional, divided state, dismantle their man-made walls of division, and submit to one another in love, making it their first priority to be one, even as Jesus and the Father are one.
    There are explicit bible texts that condemn the founding of a separate local congregation. But in a vast, centuries-long, committed act of collective rebellion, thousands of “churches” have agreed to pretend that those texts don’t matter. Indeed, it’s the only thing those “churches” can agree on.

    This is the “big picture”.
    “Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” Rev 2:29

  344. Dave A A wrote:

    aside from a few personal stories he could have just read from Leeman’s “Membership” and “Church Discipline” books. Really he should have given 9Marx credit.

    Well, that is basically what a spokesmodel does. I think there are good 9Marks churches and pastors, but I have no idea why those good churches and pastors have anything to do with 9Marks.

  345. The other church I’ve talked about this thread, Watermark, has an interesting new Google review:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=google+watermark&oq=google+watermark&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7504j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=google+reviews+watermark&lrd=0x864c20438f947ef3:0xe9268ef2b3103703,1,

    “Been a member just about 2 years now. I’ve slowly sat back and watched. I loved the church at first but as time progressed kept seeing several problems unfold. Both my fiancé and I were weekly attenders, served for the church as well as was in a community group. All which are factored to be a member.

    I’ve watched numerous occasions of Todd bashing other religions as well as the non believer. Which is judgment and condemning them for their belief which I think is simply wrong.

    My fiancé was baptized by JP as well as myself in the pond. So 1 year from our wedding date I ask JP he tells me to message merge, which we had already completed. So I did told them the story and how I wanted JP to marry us in a year. The response was “JP is no longer able to accept weddings unless you have a personal relationship with him”. I’m sorry but being s member of the church that’s your response something is wrong here.

    Lastly we are obviously engaged and preparing for the wedding. In the midst of all this we found a house for sale that we couldn’t pass up. So we bought the house prior to our wedding.

    Proceeding buying the house we informed our community groups of the such and they had no worries. As soon as the church leaders caught wind of this is when the personal attacks started coming. It has been almost everyday these past 2 months someone is reaching out trying to get us to move out to the wedding cuz we are wrong for what we are doing. Then they took it another step and revoked my fiancé membership from the church due to this. This isn’t the end, they are still persistent on getting her to move and explaining we are wrong for what we are doing.

    This left my fiancé in tears many nights, feeling lonely and depressed. Someone who was so loyal to the church and thought K1 race for 2 years and they just made her feel like trash and that to me is not okay.

    This church is far to radical, judgmental, condemning. Todd will try to preach by fear to make you feel bad and want to do better.

    All in all, I loved the church at the beginning but watching it over the years has swayed me vastly to disagree and remove myself from the church.”

    Prayers for Anthony Griego and his fiance.

  346. Stan wrote:

    Then they took it another step and revoked my fiancé membership from the church due to this.

    Sad. (and of course its the fiancé who had revoked membership, and not the man) I hear a similar story from an ex about his prior marriage…they moved in a month before the wedding and AP gave them grief about it…same assoc pastor who was later caught with a serious porn addiction! So.

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  348. The whole Acts29 network appears to be the nondenominational denomination. I too have concerns about Watermark. Getting into a community group is almost impossible. The process is so rigorous that most people give up trying or don’t even attempt to when they find out what’s required. My daughter attends the young adult service on Tuesdays (The Porch), but would never even try to get into a community group. I don’t have anything against mega-churches, but when the leaders start ‘putting on airs’ (as us Southerners would say), it’s a recipe for disaster. Pride goes before a fall. Jesus and Paul rebuked the Pharisees for putting requirements on people that they couldn’t bear. Watermark appears to be doing just that, and packaging it Christian-speak. ‘Follow the rules…submit to the leaders…sign covenants….do what your community group tells you…’ COME ON! Didn’t Jesus free us from all of this? Instead power-hungry men become celebrities and convince people that this intense structure is required to follow Jesus. It’s not. It’s only a means of control.

  349. @ Anna:

    Yup, and IFB has been doing that way much longer than Acts29. At least they don’t suggest new, or latter-day if you will, additions to the Bible.

    No concerns about Watermark here, it’s a shepherding cult and Todd Wagner is as much of a Dallas mega looney tune as his forebear Bob Tilton. Have you ever looked up his house’s value on the Dallas County CAD?

  350. Gram3 wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    aside from a few personal stories he could have just read from Leeman’s “Membership” and “Church Discipline” books. Really he should have given 9Marx credit.
    Well, that is basically what a spokesmodel does. I think there are good 9Marks churches and pastors, but I have no idea why those good churches and pastors have anything to do with 9Marks.

    Some members of my family are going to one of those churches. I don’t understand it, frankly. It’s a mixture of good and loving and common sense (women do much there, except for preaching), and the occasional troubling sign, like one of the preachers dropping a reference in a sermon. And preaching (apparently only) only from the ESV. (I didn’t used to consider that a problem, but now it makes me wonder.)

    Earlier in the year, there was a sermon series on Ephesians 5. It was so triggering that I could not go to church after the first message or two, until the series was over. Other women in the church were also troubled, and I heard reports of others who stayed away during the series.The men preaching and teaching tried to make it a kinder, gentler comp message with the emphasis on husbands loving well, but it still set my Spidey senses tingling, no, screaming.

    There’s something wrong there.

  351. @ refugee:
    I forgot; among the troubling references are the 9Marks books on the “free” table. And the references in the sermons are people like John Piper or Matt Chandler. I heard a Mahaney reference very early on (a couple years ago), but that name has disappeared. I sometimes wonder, though, when the speaker quotes something, saying “someone said” or “a man said” or something to that effect, if Mahaney or some other controversial figure is being quoted.

  352. Stan wrote:

    No concerns about Watermark here, it’s a shepherding cult and Todd Wagner is as much of a Dallas mega looney tune as his forebear Bob Tilton. Have you ever looked up his house’s value on the Dallas County CAD?

    The same “Bob Tilton” who was mentioned in Steve Taylor’s “Cash Cow”?

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  354. Nancy2 wrote:

    To all of the ladies out there: If a man (even a “pastor”) touches you beneath the table, it’s okay to tell him not to touch you again — out loud, no matter who is within earshot. If the man pays you no mind and touches you again, it’s okay to pour hot coffee or iced tea in his lap, or to stick a fork in his hand …… or his leg ……. or pretty much his anywhere.

    A well-aimed purse shoved in the guy’s crotch also does wonders.
    I know. I did it once. The assailant turned green & ran for the nearest corner to puke. Highly recommended for repeat offenders.