Is a 6 Year Old Kid Who Doesn’t Like Soccer a Complex Parental and Gospel™ Dilemma?

"But I want my kids to hear that doing what they do, and learning about who God created them to be, is a joy to watch as it unfolds." link

 http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=33187&picture=dog-playing-soccer
Dog enjoys playing soccer

Asking for quick feedback from readers.

 We often have access to information more quickly than some sources due to our broad reader base. These stories are interesting but probably do not need a lengthy post. How would you feel if we occasionally did several really short posts on occasion just to keep you up on stories? For example, Tullian Tchividjian just got remarried or how someone can show us how to access missing CBMW posts? Let us know.


Let me tell you about my son when he was  growing up. He was really good at softball but he hated playing the game, even when he got the prime positions. He was fair to average in soccer but he loved playing the game, even when he wasn't a starter. So, he played soccer in school and in traveling leagues, loving every minute of it. At the end of his junior year in high school, he decided he would like to spend a year running track instead of playing soccer. So he did and quite enjoyed his senior year in high school. When he got to college he played intramural soccer and now, as a graduate, still likes to watch professional soccer and doesn't ever watch baseball. He also likes to run for exercise.

When my son hit junior high school, he asked us what to do with "all of his money." For years, he had be saving every penny and dime he could find in the wash along with birthday money from his family. We checked the little bank he kept in his room and discovered he had saved $1500! So, we helped him invest it and he enjoyed watching his money earn interest, etc. 

Even though he loved numbers and investing, he applied to be accepted into a 6 year pharmacy program. He spent 1 year in the program and disliked it. He switched to accounting, did well and is now quite satisfied working for an accounting firm in our area.

I think this all sounds like a reasonable course for my son. Apparently, the gospel™ crowd does not concur. The Gospel Coalition website posted When Quitting Soccer Is a Moral Dilemma by Brownwyn Lea. I almost didn't read the post, assuming it was typical advice encouraging kids to stick through the season to which they had committed play. You know…"Don't let the team down." "Be a person of your word," etc. However, since this is The Gospel Coalition, I realized there might be more to the story and there sure was. 

The post was about a 6 year old child who didn't like soccer and it was time to sign him up for the next season.

In other words, he tried it for at least a season and he didn't like it. Big whoop, right? To me, the simplest solution would be to ask him what he/she would like to try next. Perhaps he/she would like to stay at home and play with the neighborhood kids for awhile. She/he might have liked to take a gymnastics class or play kiddie basketball. Note the word "kiddie" basketball-not professional training basketball.

Apparently, this dislike of soccer is viewed by the author as a "weakness" that should be mastered.

To put it in more practical terms: Do I keep my kid in soccer to help him master his weaknesses, or let him keep looking and find the sport he loves?

What weakness? The kid simply does not like soccer. I don't like swimming for exercise. is that a sinful weakness on my part?

Mastering this weakness in soccer appears to take priority over finding a sport or activity that he loves.

Do I keep my kid in soccer to help him master his weaknesses, or let him keep looking and find the sport he loves?

The answer is not complex. Help him to find a sport or activity he loves. Why in the world not? he is only 6 years old, dadgummit!

His dislike of soccer was describes as a surprisingly complex parental dilemma for which the parents needed lots of advice. She repeats the word *complex.*

Remember, the kid is 6 year old.

extracurricular activities can be ethically complex.

It is just a game when they are 6 years old. We are not talking about Olympic training here.

Mom finds help in David Brooks’s book, The Road to Character  

As you read the book's overview on Amazon, remind yourself that we are discussing a 6 year old kid who simply doesn't like soccer. Yet his parents are mired in the pain and challenge of ethical complexity over his preferences. 

Looking to some of the world’s greatest thinkers and inspiring leaders, Brooks explores how, through internal struggle and a sense of their own limitations, they have built a strong inner character. Labor activist Frances Perkins understood the need to suppress parts of herself so that she could be an instrument in a larger cause. Dwight Eisenhower organized his life not around impulsive self-expression but considered self-restraint. Dorothy Day, a devout Catholic convert and champion of the poor, learned as a young woman the vocabulary of simplicity and surrender. Civil rights pioneers A. Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin learned reticence and the logic of self-discipline, the need to distrust oneself even while waging a noble crusade.

Blending psychology, politics, spirituality, and confessional, The Road to Character provides an opportunity for us to rethink our priorities, and strive to build rich inner lives marked by humility and moral depth.

I see absolutely nothing in this description that makes this book seem particularly appropriate to apply to little kids who dislike soccer.

She seems to focus on Brooks' mandate to tame one's inner evil while stressing goodness.

Yep-there seems to be too much ruminating about good versus evil when we are simply talking about a soccer season for a 6 year old.

the pendulum begin to swing away from a focus on taming our innate capacity for evil and toward an affirmation of our innate goodness: We are creative, we are loved, we have unique gifts and talents. Brooks concludes, though, that the pendulum has swung too far; we now live in an age when we’ve lost our moral vocabulary, and with it, the tools to pursue goodness and purpose.

It's about needing the gospel. You surely knew this was coming.

The gospel is going to speak to our kids' sin.  Uh…we are talking about a 6 year old kid who doesn't like soccer, right? He's not holding up banks or stealing his sister's lollipop. A dislike for soccer is not a repudiation of the gospel. I don't like grape soda. Should I be forced to drink it in order to understand my need for the gospel? Good night! This gospel™ stuff is getting waaaaay out of hand. 

 In an age when children are both praised and honed to an unprecedented degree, they need to know that they’re unconditionally loved by their parents, but also that they’re deeply flawed and must devote their lives to overcoming weaknesses.

In other words, what they need is the gospel. Brooks’s New York Times bestseller echoes what the Book of Ages has said all along: We need the gospel to tell us of God’s unfailing, unrelenting love. And we need the gospel to speak to us in our sin with the upward call of Christ Jesus.

She is going to build character in her kid by following the "plumb line of God's Word."

She is so serious about this plumb line stuff that there surely must be a parable pointing to the gospel as found in midget football…

The road to character matters more than the road to success, even if it’s the road less traveled. What a blessed relief to discover we don’t need to swing along the moral pendulum of parenting, but can instead follow the plumb line of God’s Word.

This all means the kid will be forced to play soccer since it involves the gospel, sin, God's Word and character. Its all so very complex that this simple blogger (cute as she may be) does not understand what the heck is going on!!

Of course, the little boy will hone his skills at soccer. He will sweat and be disciplined in the little kids soccer league.he will grow up to be a leading gospel™ celebrity because he was made to play soccer at 6 years old.

Honed skills, with their accompanying freedom and beauty, come with hours of sweat and discipline. Niches aren’t discovered so much as carved. So we’ll sign him up again, and let him carve his groove rather than hope he’ll find it.

My thoughts

1. I think (I actually hope) that there is more to this story than the author mommy is admitting. 

For example, maybe she likes soccer or the soccer team is run by people she wants to hang with or it fits her schedule better than karate. Maybe she sees her kid as the next David Beckham, converting the soccer world to Christ since he got the gospel, etc. while playing soccer at 6.

2. If there really is nothing more, than this mother appears to be a bit obsessed and is misapplying the Bible and/or David Brooks' book

What do you want to bet that Brooks would be perplexed by a mother who applied his book in order to force her little kid do soccer. Frankly, she exhibits a dumbed down response to a more *complex* book. Look at the biography on Wikipedia of Dwight Eisenhower's early years. Eisenhower was mentioned in Brooks' book.  His mother was against war. However, she had a collection of history books, many of which involved military history. He decided, on his own, as a kid, to read those books, loving every last minute or it. 

While Eisenhower's mother was against war, it was her collection of history books that first sparked Eisenhower's early and lasting interest in military history. He persisted in reading the books in her collection and became a voracious reader in the subject. Other favorite subjects early in his education were arithmetic and spelling.[21]

Mommy didn't tell him to stop reading military history since she hated war. Instead, she allowed him to develop his love for historical reading. She didn't make him play a sport that he hated. She allowed him to develop his strengths within his interests. She helped him develop discipline through assigned chores at the home which makes far more sense than forcing a kid to do a disliked extracurricular activity.

3. If this situation is such a complex ethical and moral dilemma for this mother, I cannot imagine how she will cope with the far more difficult decisions that will face her child as he becomes an adult.

Someone needs to tell this woman to take a chill pill or she will burn out by junior high school.

4. Kids need to explore a variety of things to discover their likes, dislikes and talents.

Why is soccer the end point for this mother? See point 1.

Disliking soccer is not a gospel problem.

Teaching a kid to be loving, fair, kind, and honest, etc. within their favorite activity is. Do not confuse the two. Don't worry-kids will be forced to do lots of things they don't like as they progress through school and life. Parents should not unnecessarily add to it or they will cause their kids to become exasperated in trying to meet their parents' demands.

Remember Ephesians 6:4

Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. (NIV -Bible Gateway)

Comments

Is a 6 Year Old Kid Who Doesn’t Like Soccer a Complex Parental and Gospel™ Dilemma? — 498 Comments

  1. It’s times like these I’m fortunate that my parents had good heads on their shoulders. I tried summer camp for a year. Absolutely hated it. When they picked me up from camp, I pretty much complained about it the entire car ride home. They didn’t even bother asking if I wanted to go back the following year, although we still joke about it to this day (Me: “I don’t camp anywhere unless they have free continental breakfast, free wi-fi, and offer AAA discounts.”)

    I was pretty much free to pick and choose my own activities (virtually all non-physical ones, such as student council, yearbook staff, math team, etc.) Not once was I told that I was in sin because I didn’t play a single sport. Not once was it considered a parental dilemma (in fact, because of my physical limitations, it would have been more of a dilemma, albeit from an injury risk standpoint, if I *did* want to play a sport.) My parents were/are very open to letting me pursue my own interests (even if they don’t understand my current interest of fan conventions and cosplay, they still don’t protest it) and never forced any extracurricular/leisure activity on me.

    This ironically also ties in to my church’s Man Day events, because there’s definitely a stigma that you’re in the wrong if you don’t go and participate in these things (the whole “Be there or be a girl” tagline.)

    It’s a matter or not liking to participate in certain activities. I don’t see where it’s any sort of sin. Apparently I’m not Gospel (TM) enough to see how it is sinful. And I think I’m better off that way, to be honest.

  2. AnonInNC wrote:

    (Me: “I don’t camp anywhere unless they have free continental breakfast, free wi-fi, and offer AAA discounts.”)

    The same thing happened to me at Camp Muscatowa in Maine-a Girl Scout camp. My mother still has the letters I sent home which all basically said “Come and get me.” After spending two nights in pouring rain camping on top of a mountain, I vowed I would never, ever, ever camp again.

    I often joke that our only prenuptial was “I don’t camp.” Bill handled all the Boy scout camp outs. I will hike all day but at night, I am indoors with plumbing and temp control and now wi fi.

    We do AAA as well. We usually do Hampton Inns.

  3. This woman and her article are absurd! Really. It is now sinful to not want to play soccer next year? First world problems of ridiculous proportions. Geesh!

  4. Bridget wrote:

    This woman and her article are absurd! Really. It is now sinful to not want to play soccer next year? First world problems of ridiculous proportions. Geesh!

    Yeah, this. There are moms in Aleppo, Syria, who would love to have this problem.

  5. Am I reading this right? He tried it — for a whole season — and he didn’t like it. And he’s six years old! Six years old. This is not all about the gospel. It’s about parents who have to prove that they are In Complete Control of Everything.
    What is wrong with these people? Why does everything have to be such a big freaking deal? I’m baffled.

  6. Well, this article certainly exasperated me! Maybe she was stuck with a deadline for her article, and this was all she could think of. I hope so, anyway.

    Some shorter articles would be really interesting. I think we all understand the pressures that our blog queens are under, and if shorter articles would help, great. It would also spread out the comments a bit.

  7. >2. If there really is nothing more,

    3. She had a deadline and came up with this nonsense.

    Soccer was by far the most boring sport I played as a kid. Basketball had a nice faster pace. I watched the us in World Cup last year and they were a hundred minutes in and the score was zero to zero! That never happens in bball.

  8. Shorter articles are fine but you don’t need to post about Tullian – we’ll find out all about it from the book he’s writing.

  9. Sounds like the whole bunch could use a screening of “My Dad’s a Soccer Mom” – it’s might take the Gospel out of the story, but there’s just as much redemption (if not more) in role reversal and allowing a kid to do what they like and not forcing them to do activities they can’t stand. Here’s the trailer for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB6ZrLk2LrU

  10. Exactly what ‘gospel’ is this mom applying here?
    Poor little one. I remember starting my son out in a variety of activities, and letting him gravitate towards what interested him. Well, piano lessons were a definite ‘no’, so after three months, we terminated them. (Not even the bribe to go to Burger King after the lesson was a good enough lure.)
    He ended up loving karate, so that’s what we followed up. Saturday mornings, the dojo, then the Pancake House. Everybody happy.

    If parents force their own choices on children enough, one effect is to make the child indecisive and trying to please others too much ….. in the end the child won’t be allowed to explore who HE is after living out the parent’s fantasies instead. Sad, this. Pushy stage-mom type mothers can do a lot of damage, but they also miss being a part of their child’s growth in being able to explore their own interests.

  11. When I was a teacher I knew another teacher who had been a fairly good Vollyball player in H.S. Her 4th grade daughter was good in gymnastics and the mother was driven for the daughter to have every opportunity. One day during practice the girl had a fall and went into seizures. They had Life Flight take her to a hospital where the girl had numerous X-rays etc and they couldn’t find anything wrong although the girl had more seizures. The mother had the girl continue to intensely practice gymnastics and even was seriously considering sending the girl out of state to be with a special trainer to work towards the Olympics.

  12. Well, what else can you expect from a bunch of Pharisees.

    Deebs, you are the ones doing the work, so do the posts in the way that’s the most convenient to you. I just wonder if multiple posts would impact the conversation. What about one post that can be updated if another story happens within the same week, or some other period of time? We’d all be commenting in the same post. Regardless of how you do it, thanks for doing it!

    As for Tullian, his book will say that he’s a sinner who was saved by God’s grace. It’s sad to say, but thanks to the Christian publishing industry and the hypocracy of the usual suspects, these words have become cheap and meaningless.

  13. I have a friend whose daughter tried soccer one year. When my friend asked the little girl how she liked soccer, her daughter replied, “I loved it…except when they made me run and kick the ball!!”

    They then signed her up for cheerleading which she also hated.

  14. I’m sorry. I read to this part:

    In an age when children are both praised and honed to an unprecedented degree, they need to know that they’re unconditionally loved by their parents, but also that they’re deeply flawed and must devote their lives to overcoming weaknesses.

    And I had to stop, I felt sick. Banging my head against the desk.

    What is the matter with people? Are they devoid of parenting instincts? Common sense? The milk of human kindness?

    All she is going to teach her son is:
    1. life is a dreary misery that makes no objective sense.
    2. Do not trust your parents.
    3. Don’t ever try or start anything because once you do, you’ll never be able to quit.

    Ahh, this makes me so sad. So very sad. Children are a gift from God. They deserve better than this. Let your child try things and discover where their talents and desires lie. Help them find the thing that brings them and others joy. Celebrate the gifts and unique personality God has given them.

    Dear lady who wrote this article, I trust that you mean well and want to raise your child in a way that honors God. Could I encourage you to put away the religious manuals and take a detour into child development? Maybe earn a credit or two and open your mind to the beauty and wonder of how God has designed children to learn and grow. You will never regret it. Do it now before you have a lot of mistakes to look back on and regret. Please.

  15. H.L. Mencken said, “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    I think this mom is laboring under the same bondage. If you aren’t suffering, it must be sin. What an awful burden to put on a 6 year old child. Or anyone.

    Life is short. Don’t waste it on things you don’t love, things you weren’t suited for.

  16. Deebs, I think short articles would be great. A mix of short and long articles would be great. Honestly, I think anything you choose to do will be great!

  17. Bridget wrote:

    This woman and her article are absurd! Really. It is now sinful to not want to play soccer next year? First world problems of ridiculous proportions. Geesh!

    I was thinking that this son will probably move far, far, far away when he is an adult.

  18. Christiane wrote:

    Exactly what ‘gospel’ is this mom applying here?

    The gospel of “Why wasn’t this child built according to my personal specifications, and why didn’t it come with a remote control?”

  19. Velour wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    I was thinking that this son will probably move far, far, far away when he is an adult.

    I think this son is going to burn out way before his mother!

  20. I wonder if there’s not an undercurrent of “playing sports will make him grow up to be a straight hetero manly masculine husband of his hott with two t’s yet submissive wife” thing going on here. Of course, if there is, she picked the wrong sport to sign him up for. After all, we all know that [American] football is the manliest of sports*, and soccer is decidedly less manly because it’s European. Being from Europe makes soccer questionable, if you catch my drift**.

    * I’m sarcastically playing the part of a stereotypical American, so in character I’m pretending that rugby doesn’t exist.

    ** If not, look up the song Gay or European from Legally Blonde: The Musical.

  21. The penultimate paragraph is quite shocking:

    “This brings me back to the soccer dilemma. For now, I think we’ll re-enroll him. A novice can’t find his or her niche. Honed skills, with their accompanying freedom and beauty, come with hours of sweat and discipline. Niches aren’t discovered so much as carved. So we’ll sign him up again, and let him carve his groove rather than hope he’ll find it.”

    NO! You cannot carve a groove in something that (1) you don’t like or (2) you are bad at. I could never make a niche for myself as a singer because my voice is dreadful.

    If you don’t have a love for something, you are not going to be motivated to put in the hours of sweat and discipline. And if you don’t have some degree of natural talent at a subject, no matter how much you work, you are not going to excel at it.

    Nowhere in the article does the author say that her kid is good at football. For all we know, God could have made him to be the next Jack Nicklaus (to pick a sport at random). How is forcing him to play soccer going to help him find his path?

    It really worries me that the author relates her son’s dislike of soccer to weakness or sin. Her approach is bordering on child abusive. It is just crazy to read a complex moral dilemma into the sporting interests of a six year old!

  22. Josh wrote:

    I wonder if there’s not an undercurrent of “playing sports will make him grow up to be a straight hetero manly masculine etc…”

    I have to admit, that’s precisely what crossed my mind too, given the TGC crowd’s obsession with gender roles…

  23. Heck, even Jesus asked people what did they want. If they wanted healing, then he healed them. If they didn’t want to sell all they had to follow him, they didn’t have to.

    This mom is teaching her son that what he wants doesn’t matter. Poor kid.

  24. I can speak from some experience here: my likes & dislikes were *not* honed into skills as a kid. Whatever my *parents* thought I *should* like were forced down my throat. 🙁 It was awful. I grew up having to really re-train myself that it’s OKAY to 1) Like the things I like 2) Like the people I like.

    I was supposed to try & hang out with “cool” kids, and was constantly criticized for how my friends looked/acted/what they liked. I was supposed to be into sports.

    See my handle? Xian Janeway??? I’m not into sports. I have teeny tiny little Starships downstairs. I’m JUST learning how to have real friends. Gah, my family would pitch a fit if my *female* friends weren’t pretty enough. God FORBID I did’t date a hot guy. /headdesk.

    Unnecessary control is the mark of dysfunction for me: a dysfunctional church, a dysfunctional family, a dysfunctional political system, etc.

  25. Dave wrote:

    NO! You cannot carve a groove in something that (1) you don’t like or (2) you are bad at. I could never make a niche for myself as a singer because my voice is dreadful.

    I will disagree here, as I was completely tone deaf as a child, but I loved to sing more than anything. So that’s what I did. I sang in school choirs from 3rd grade to my junior year of college.

    I made it into the voice major at UGA as a freshman. I have sung at Carnegie Hall. I lead worship at a number of churches, including as a missionary in japan.

    I didn’t have initial talent, but because I loved it, I gained enough skill to sing at a high level. I ended up not staying a voice major for other reasons, but I still sing in some capacity year-round.

    This kid doesn’t love what he’s doing. Kids like him grow up, go to college, and go berserk because they were so sheltered and scheduled by their parents trying to make them perfect little followers. You can’t fix someone who doesn’t want to be fixed, no matter how much you try.

    No matter how much you work, you will never get rid of every single one of your weaknesses. You might be able to fix one, but not all of them. I mean, this author’s weakness is clearly logic, and she doesn’t seem to be working too hard to fix that.

  26. XianJaneway wrote:

    I was supposed to try & hang out with “cool” kids, and was constantly criticized for how my friends looked/acted/what they liked. I was supposed to be into sports.
    See my handle? Xian Janeway??? I’m not into sports. I have teeny tiny little Starships downstairs. I’m JUST learning how to have real friends. Gah, my family would pitch a fit if my *female* friends weren’t pretty enough. God FORBID I did’t date a hot guy. /headdesk.

    I’ve been meaning to message you, as we’re quite similar in this respect. I ran a ministry for female geeks, gamers, and goths for almost 10 years. I’m a SF fan, have written SF, and I’m a computer gamer.

    So many Christian women I met through my ministry were disappointment to their parents. It happened to me some, but my parents were fairly lenient in most respects. But I met so many women who said that they couldn’t please their parents no matter how much they pretended to be someone they were not. Their parents were never happy with them, and they never felt loved for who they were.

    That’s what’s going to happen to this kid if his mom insists on doing everything this way. He’s going to grow up and resent her, and feel like she didn’t really love him unless he did everything the way she wanted. And he’ll never be able to do that.

  27. So how long before he realises that his parents will force him to do stuff he doesn’t like, above everything else, & start lying about things? That poor little kid. He’s a child not a morality project.

    And how many of you feel like me, waiting for the day we read a headline which says something like’ Christian Celebrity X gets remarried & ISN’T writing a book about it’…There’s something mean in me – actually I think I’ve just figured out the real life experience it comes from- that feels writing a book, getting royalties & praise for whatever Jesus Juke he can force his experience into is a reward for his bad behaviour. Oh look I cheated on my wife & hurt people & now I’m spiritually worthy in my humility & repentence. Just stop talking about yourself for a while maybe?

  28. Kindakrunchy wrote:

    her daughter replied, “I loved it…except when they made me run and kick the ball!

    I forget which activity but my nephew literally said he liked the breaks the best! Ha.

    I do think there could be value in sticking with an activity, but it should be one the kid actually likes. My mom took me out of dance but I kind of wish she had maybe found a different teacher and let me try it again.

  29. Dave wrote:

    It really worries me that the author relates her son’s dislike of soccer to weakness or sin

    Especially since my experience of soccer was standing somewhere in a field for a million years waiting till the ball maybe came near you. Wow I hated soccer!! Of course, somebody realized that was too boring for little kids and they basically run around together in no sort of order kicking the ball.

  30. So there you have it.

    The Gospel (TM) for women is:
    Soap Bubbles Submission

    The Gospel (TM) for children is:
    Soccer Obedience.

    Why does this confuse our cute and intelligent blog hostess?
    It is all quite simple.
    It is the trickle down effect of the neo-cal/comp Gospel.
    If women have to submit in Soap Bubbles, then children have to obey in Soccer. Even six year olds. Why? Because ‘The Gospel’, ‘The Divine Order of Creation’, and ‘God’s Guidelines for the Family’.

    It is all so functional and orderly fitting in the nice, little, role boxes wrapped in shiny, biblical paper tied up with a bright, gospelly bow.

  31. Kindakrunchy wrote:

    When my friend asked the little girl how she liked soccer, her daughter replied, “I loved it…except when they made me run and kick the ball!!”

    LOL
    Kids say the darndest things 🙂

  32. Mara wrote:

    It is all so functional and orderly fitting in the nice, little, role boxes wrapped in shiny, biblical paper tied up with a bright, gospelly bow.

    Sadly, it really does sound more like a lot of unhappy people.
    That need to ‘control’ is rabid: if the mom can’t control her own life, then she sure as heck is going to control her kid. I think it was Headless who wrote about the phenomenon of kissing up and kicking down in Neo-Cal World.

  33. XianJaneway wrote:

    Unnecessary control is the mark of dysfunction for me: a dysfunctional church, a dysfunctional family, a dysfunctional political system, etc.

    This.

  34. For a group that talks a lot about grace, they sure are obsessed with forcing people to do things to please others.

  35. As if raising children isn't complicated enough…..our son tried soccer, completed the season, and never played it again. He did not like it. Instead, he took horse riding lessons, and started target rifle competition. Those two were a fit for him. Became proficient in both sports. Guess what, he liked doing them. Did I flunk motherhood by allowing him to pursue activities he enjoyed?

  36. I am very concerned about the next generation of Neo-Cals. Are their parents putting so much pressure on them during their growing-up years that they will one day leave the faith? Or that they will never truly embrace it as they move toward adulthood since Dever and gang recommend delaying baptism till they are in their late teens. Time will tell…

  37. “Blending psychology … spirituality”

    Therein lies the problem. We’ve got too many Christian psychologists telling us how to live! The average American pulpit proclaims more psychology and philosophy than Gospel truths. The “self-help” section at Christian book stores have been moved upfront; the Bibles are in the back now. As a result, the average American church-goer is in a bigger spiritual mess than he needs to be. We’re bringing too much of the world’s thinking into the 21st century church, rather than focusing on “Thus Saith the Lord.”

  38. Deb wrote:

    Or that they will never truly embrace it as they move toward adulthood since Dever and gang recommend delaying baptism till they are in their late teens.

    WHY do Dever and the Gang want THIS to happen? They must have a rea$on. Maybe they only want 'members' who can tithe and they will take it from paper-boy salaries and baby-sitting pay and the first 'jobs' of teens working after high school in the supermarket. I smell money, not grace in this. I've become a bit cynical about their prioritie$.

  39. siteseer wrote:

    Unnecessary control is the mark of dysfunction for me: a dysfunctional church, a dysfunctional family, a dysfunctional political system, etc.

    Yes to this.

  40. @ Christiane:

    I believe it's all about CONTROL. If these children wait to be baptized with they are of legal age, they will sign the membership covenant in the process. These unsuspecting new converts have no idea that they are signing a legal contract that is staunchly enforced by church leadership.

    On a related note, these Neo-Cal pastors are beginning to put pressure on college students to join their home away from home church. That's a topic for another post…

  41. Christiane wrote:

    @ Velour:
    How’s your foot this morning? Hope it’s better.

    Hi Christiane,

    I was just thinking of you as I made a breakfast burrito. My foot is doing much better and your good advice and prayers worked!

    Hugs,

    Velour in California

  42. I feel sad for the kid.

    As an adult I’m literally having to rediscover a lot of things I love and hope to be proficient in because I grew up mainly only participating in what my parents wanted me to do. Their favorite thing was a family band. So that was life for many many years.

  43. Both of my children played soccer for a few years. They were never that good. When they wanted to stop, no problem. The cutest years were when the kids were small about 4 or 5. The little kids would run around the field not knowing what to do. They would often kick a goal for the opposing team. Everyone cheered for the child. My son tried scouts and loved it. He went on to become an Eagle Scout. My husband was a troop leader. As a family we did a lot of scouting things together. If my son hadn’t of liked scouts, he could have quit. He did JROTC in high school for a few years. Then it interfered with all his homework. Not a problem when he quit. As parents, neither my husband or I was going to push our children into something they didn’t like. Believe me, even a 6 yr old has a mind of his own. It would have never occurred to us that by not choosing to continue in something, they were sinning. The church likes to make everything we do or not do a sin. I’m sorry. I don’t buy into the kind of stuff.

  44. Worst case scenario, and have we not seen this:

    The child will never be free of this mother, because she has set out to conquer him when while he is too young to effectively defend himself. Either he will be cowed by her and will be the pathetic middle aged man still trying to keep his aging mama happy, or else he will grow to hate her and that very hate will occupy areas on his personality in which he desperately needed to be free.

    Best case scenario:

    Some miracle or some tragedy will come along in which mama has to go back to work, preferably with at least two jobs, and she then has no time nor energy to pour into trying to re-create this child in her own image. In other words, mama is forced to get a life-her own life.

    Better gospelly idea: this child belongs to God, not to mama. In trying to remake this child in her own image she is trying to steal from God what is legitimately His. Mama needs to repent.

  45. I think this all sounds like a reasonable course for my son. Apparently, the gospel™ crowd does not concur. The Gospel Coalition website posted When Quitting Soccer Is a Moral Dilemma by Brownwyn Lea. I almost didn’t read the post, assuming it was typical advice encouraging kids to stick through the season to which they had committed play. You know…”Don’t let the team down.” “Be a person of your word,” etc. However, since this is The Gospel Coalition, I realized there might be more to the story and there sure was.”
    I think this is more about self-center mommy syndrome than anything else. If Lea writes for TGC, I would assume that she lives in a world where women are considered to be lesser beings. Men are the ones who really matter. She is nothing at church, she is nothing at home, but a “soccer mom” has a certain social status these days. She could be the prom queen around the soccer social field. She could be a big wig there.
    I wonder if she is pushing her child in to soccer to elevate herself socially, while at the same time saying, ” look what a great mom I am. I ‘encourage’ my child to be his/her best in all situations.”

  46. Nancy2 wrote:

    I wonder if she is pushing her child in to soccer to elevate herself socially, while at the same time saying, ” look what a great mom I am. I ‘encourage’ my child to be his/her best in all situations.”

    I think you’re on the money here.

    The interaction with the other soccer team parents provides desperately needed social interaction that doesn’t have to do with church related activities. Where she’s not defined as an inferior being.

    It definitely sounds like Mom needs the soccer team more.

    All about balance, as I’ve mentioned before – Church should be part of your life, not your entire life.

    Dee: I’m fine with shorter posts providing updates to whatever trends are out there. It would provide a wider overview of what’s going on. This blog currently provides me with my religion fix.

  47. Deb wrote:

    I believe it’s all about CONTROL. If these children wait to be baptized with they are of legal age, they will sign the membership covenant in the process. These unsuspecting new converts have no idea that they are signing a legal contract that is staunchly enforced by church leadership.

    Another good insight. These groups define themselves by the control they exert so it should be no surprise that their family lives are driven by the same definitions.

  48. Nancy2 wrote:

    I wonder if she is pushing her child in to soccer to elevate herself socially, while at the same time saying, ” look what a great mom I am. I ‘encourage’ my child to be his/her best in all situations.”

    I think, too, that her kids are really the only place where she can control her life, in some of these Calvinista families. She can’t make decisions about her own life, but she can make some decisions for her kids, if they line up with what her husband envisions his kids to be.

  49. Personally, I find those years of exploration for children. I went through all there was to offer including tap dancing! As my kids older preschool director told us ignorant parents, their play is their work. It has future meaning.

    The article mom reminds me of when my 9 year old started cross country at her then private Christian school. At one practice a girl in front of her fell hard so my daughter stopped to help her. The coach chewed her out for stopping. I saw it from afar and knew that would be the end of cross country. :o)

    She could not fathom that it was wrong to stop and help. Who can argue with that? I was proud of her for stopping.

    Btw: I have an aversion to the phrase ‘Plumb line of God’s Word’. Doesn’t she know ‘Gods Word’ is Christ?

  50. I can’t even find any words to adequately express my exasperation at the post, the pseudo-dilemma, or, most importantly, the disservice this thinking does to actually gospel issues.

    Others and I have said it before: the overuse and misapplication of the word gospel by the 9M/TGC crowd will have long term negative consequences.

  51. Interesting, on the author’s Facebook page she was agreeing with a commenter who said that after a season of the kid didn’t like soccer you shouldn’t make them go back.

  52. Deb wrote:

    Another good insight. These groups define themselves by the control they exert so it should be no surprise that their family lives are driven by the same definitions.

    I think this is it. But it defies what they claim to believe and teach about their determinist God. God controls everything, including their ‘character’ as they are totally depraved and totally unable.

  53. Now imagine being at a church full of people who promote their typical first world life issues as epic biblical struggles, and God’s will for them is always what they already wanted, and that these people become favored members of the church.

  54. Lydia wrote:

    The article mom reminds me of when my 9 year old started cross country at her then private Christian school. At one practice a girl in front of her fell hard so my daughter stopped to help her. The coach chewed her out for stopping. I saw it from afar and knew that would be the end of cross country. :o)

    She could not fathom that it was wrong to stop and help. Who can argue with that? I was proud of her for stopping.

    Lydia, you raised your daughter right. That coach should have been fired for yelling at your child. You should be very, very proud of your daughter.

  55. Stan wrote:

    Now imagine being at a church full of people who promote their typical first world life issues as epic biblical struggles, and God’s will for them is always what they already wanted, and that these people become favored members of the church.

    Oh yes! Like the teen who can’t stand youth group but would rather help in other places like sound system, etc. I have seen this. The teen is selfish and rebellious for not liking their godly youth group and the godly SBTS teaching. It becomes a huge deal…a crisis that this teen does not like it. Can they allow this? No. He must go to youth. (Which is dying out anyway)

    What do the teens parents do? They are not happy about it. Don’t see the big deal but go along. Recipe for future resentment and disaster of obeying stupidity and calling it godly. In this case, the teen is wiser than parents!

  56. XianJaneway wrote:

    Unnecessary control is the mark of dysfunction for me: a dysfunctional church, a dysfunctional family, a dysfunctional political system, etc.

    This statement has played out this week as my wife and I sat in a court house waiting and testifying in our son’s divorce case. His wife’s desire to control has caused them to spend tens of thousands on attorneys and make the court decide property and parenting issues just because it had to be her way or else. Thanks XianJaneway for this because the word unnecessary really sums this up ( I actually copied this quote and sent it to my son).

  57. Oh for the love of everything….Like you expressed so well, I have a hard time understanding how not liking something is a weakness. Yes, there are things in life that we don’t enjoy that we have to do, however, when it comes down to a sport or hobby, who in their right mind would ever participate in something that they do not enjoy?

    The only thing I ever made my kids do was finish swimming lessons – that is a life saving skill. One of mine has loved it so much that swimming is his sport he’s passionate about. The other went into drama until she decided she wanted to try tennis her senior year.

    Adults are freely able to make choices about the things they do. Children are at the mercy of their parents. Part of raising children to be functioning adults is allowing them to experience different things so that they have a better understanding of themselves. Keeping kids in a sport that they do not love (“to build character”) only leads to a strain in the parent-child relationship.

  58. ishy wrote:

    For a group that talks a lot about grace, they sure are obsessed with forcing people to do things to please others.

    This pretty much encapsulates CBMW, the neopatriarchy movement, T4G, Acts 29, and most of the Gospel Coalition. (possible exception: Keller)

  59. I do not know whether to laugh at the GC or cry. Talk about a bunch if self absorbed, control freak, “expert”. That article is not worth the electrins used ti nake it shue uo on my screen!

  60. This is really, really bad practical theology. Think of the kid and the messages this teaches the child about having preferences…

    God will reject you if you don’t like soccer because not liking or playing soccer means you are “weak” AND “sinning.”

    In my opinion, this sort of teaching is also disrespectful to the Imageo Dei in this child. It is squelching of healthy living where a child is affirmed in having preferences and learning what those preferences are. Can you imagine this ending well when this child becomes a young adult, and he realizes his mom has been (ab)using religion to control him for so long? I don’t think that is a recipe for real Gospel living, IMO.

  61. This post also reminds me of the time Voddie Baucham taught that it’s a sin for a child to be shy around adults.

  62. This statement shows that the parent ultimately doesn’t really understand the gospel (the Bible version, not the TM version).

    “they need to know that they’re unconditionally loved by their parents, but also that they’re deeply flawed and must devote their lives to overcoming weaknesses.”

    Apart from Christ, we are dead in sin and trespass and utterly powerless to overcome our weakness. In fact, we aren’t weak, we’re dead.

    When we trust in Christ’s work instead of our own, we are born again and accepted as we are, weaknesses and all.

    We are called then to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, not by playing soccer or otherwise forcing ourselves to engage in completely voluntary amoral activities.

    That the gospel coalition published the article is evidence they don’t understand the gospel either.

  63. @ Max:
    One thing that struck me in the OP is that mom read a book that she is applying to her 6 year old and then maps it to scripture. Oy vey.

    Her view of character formation is more Plato than Jesus Christ.

  64. Christiane wrote:

    I think it was Headless who wrote about the phenomenon of kissing up and kicking down in Neo-Cal World.

    It’s not just in the neo-cal world. You see it in all religions and in all areas of life. It is more about control vs. love, support and guidance. The Gospel group is trying to justify it by putting a “Gospel spin” on it. Other groups put other spins on it.

  65. samuel smith wrote:

    Apart from Christ, we are dead in sin and trespass and utterly powerless to overcome our weakness. In fact, we aren’t weak, we’re dead.

    People overcome weaknesses apart from Christ all the time. This is one reason Calvinism is not practical or applicable and misses the point of the cross/resurrection.

    If you are dead, you can’t renew your mind.

  66. Christiane wrote:

    WHY do Dever and the Gang want THIS to happen? They must have a rea$on.

    No. They want to play God and put the stamp of approval on salvation. I understand being cautious with a child’s confession . . . as cautious as an adults confession of faith, no more or less.

  67. Deb wrote:

    I believe it’s all about CONTROL. If these children wait to be baptized with they are of legal age, they will sign the membership covenant in the process. These unsuspecting new converts have no idea that they are signing a legal contract that is staunchly enforced by church leadership.

    That is just wrong and deceptive. Most college students don’t know what they are getting into and would most certainly be horrified if they wanted to move on and were treated like property when they left. They would most certainly be turned off if the church continued to pester them about their “membership agreement.” You can’t force people to bow to church. Jesus did not use force.

  68. Josh wrote:

    I wonder if there’s not an undercurrent of “playing sports will make him grow up to be a straight hetero manly masculine husband of his hott with two t’s yet submissive wife” thing going on here

    Bingo.

  69. I’m surprised the Gospel Corporation would promote sports. Where I live, especially for older kids, soccer games are on Sunday’s.

  70. Kathi wrote:

    Adults are freely able to make choices about the things they do. Children are at the mercy of their parents. Part of raising children to be functioning adults is allowing them to experience different things so that they have a better understanding of themselves. Keeping kids in a sport that they do not love (“to build character”) only leads to a strain in the parent-child relationship.

    Or sometimes worse things, as young people when all hope is cut off, don’t have the best judgment

    I think the movie ‘Dead Poet Society’ should be required watching for all GC members in the hopes that they will cease tormenting young people by trying to ‘break their wills’

    ‘Being conformed to Christ’ in the process we call Christian formation includes a celebration of the GIFTS and the TALENTS given to a person by God. It is not ‘conforming’ to some one-size fits all model, no. God made us diverse with different gifts so that we would someday be able to give something back to this broken world using those gifts; so ‘diversity’ is the model prized by the Body of Christ. If a person is ever going to ‘self-actualize’, he or she needs opportunities to explore those gifts and talents. And a parent can either help or hurt this process…. so much better for everyone concerned when the parents facilitate the development of God’s gifts to their child.

    If the Gospel Coalition wants to learn something about accepting their children’s many gifts from God, let them go to the real Gospel … the Holy Gospel of St. Luke, where Our Lord Himself, as a child, says to Mary and Joseph:

    “How is it that you sought Me? did you not know, that I must be about My Father’s business?”

  71. samuel smith wrote:

    “they need to know that they’re unconditionally loved by their parents, but also that they’re deeply flawed and must devote their lives to overcoming weaknesses.”

    For a person outside of their bubble, would that translate to: ” You are a vile and worthless little brat, but we love you in spite of yourself”?

  72. @ Deb:
    As an example, not too many kids who grew up at CLC under C.J.’s leadership are actually professing Christians. Many are quite sick of it all.

  73. @ Patriciamc:
    I used to call Driscoll the ‘repenting repenter’ as he would inevitably be chastised for vulgarity, delete the offending reference then do it again. Shampoo, rinse, repeat. It did not seem to ‘take’. Perhaps Tullian has the same problem?

    Maybe we should have paid more attention when he kept proclaiming antinomianism is grace.

  74. @ Nancy2:
    that ‘unconditionally loved’ means ‘unconditionally’

    I never did understand the totally-depraved thinking. The only thing that ever came out of that nightmare that was worthy of Our Lord was that God Himself reaches out to renew all Creation, only I think some of the Calvin followers think God only reaches out to the ones they say He will save. It’s complicated.

  75. NJ wrote:

    This post also reminds me of the time Voddie Baucham taught that it’s a sin for a child to be shy around adults.

    Yeah, I’d like to have a word with Baucham about that. I can’t even imagine how much more difficult my childhood would have been if my parents had to force me to be forward with adults. Even today I have problems talking to people I don’t know.

  76. Bridget wrote:

    No. They want to play God and put the stamp of approval on salvation. I understand being cautious with a child’s confession . . . as cautious as an adults confession of faith, no more or less.

    They really don’t trust God to save people.

  77. mirele wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    This post also reminds me of the time Voddie Baucham taught that it’s a sin for a child to be shy around adults.

    Yeah, I’d like to have a word with Baucham about that. I can’t even imagine how much more difficult my childhood would have been if my parents had to force me to be forward with adults. Even today I have problems talking to people I don’t know.

    It’s also a bad idea because sometimes a child has a good reason to frightened of a particular adult. We shouldn’t make them hug someone. Just give them some time to maybe grow into it, and pay attention to any odd behavior.

  78. Counterpoint: I wish my parents would have made me stick with my piano lessons!

    Not for spiritual reasons though, just so I could impress people at swanky parties.

  79. From dee’s main article above:

    …She seems to focus on Brooks’ mandate to tame one’s inner evil while stressing goodness.

    Yep-there seems to be too much ruminating about good versus evil when we are simply talking about a soccer season for a 6 year old.

    the pendulum begin to swing away from a focus on taming our innate capacity for evil and toward an affirmation of our innate goodness:…

    Wait a sec. Aren’t these the same folks who insist that we have no innate goodness, and that our default condition is always ‘sin’?

  80. Edward wrote:

    Counterpoint: I wish my parents would have made me stick with my piano lessons!

    Not for spiritual reasons though, just so I could impress people at swanky parties.

    Edward, you’re a reptile after my own depraved heart.

  81. Seriously, though, these grown-ups in the Gospel Corp aren’t content with sin-sniffing each other? They have to do it to their kids now, and teach the kids to do it to themselves!?

    It’s like they can’t stand to see anyone truly happy. Not even their children. They won’t even let their kids be kids… 🙁

  82. Lydia wrote:

    @ Patriciamc:
    I used to call Driscoll the ‘repenting repenter’ as he would inevitably be chastised for vulgarity, delete the offending reference then do it again. Shampoo, rinse, repeat. It did not seem to ‘take’. Perhaps Tullian has the same problem?
    Maybe we should have paid more attention when he kept proclaiming antinomianism is grace.

    Yep, “I’m one of the Elect, so I can do whatever I want, especially if it gets me a book contract.” Ummmm…no.

  83. Deebs, you might want to keep an eye on the Willis family story (TLC show). Is this another case of the controlling, fundie father who thinks the man is always in charge – and now is accused of rape?

  84. Jack wrote:

    The interaction with the other soccer team parents provides desperately needed social interaction that doesn’t have to do with church related activities. Where she’s not defined as an inferior being.

    It definitely sounds like Mom needs the soccer team more.

    Again Jack, great insight!

  85. My kids are thriving adults and we never made them do any extracurricular activity they didn’t want to do. We must be terrible parents.

  86. @ Muff Potter:
    I knew a couple who told all 3 of their kids when they turned 7 they had to take music lessons as part of their overall education but at age 16 they could decide to continue or not. It worked. All three can play an instrument proficiently. Only one decided to continue. But lessons/practice were never a drudgery or war. Sort of like Math or English, you simply had to take it as part of education.

    These were the same parents who took the kids bedroom door off the hinges for a week if slammed in anger. :o) Ironically, these were not Christian parents, either.

  87. Christiane wrote:

    @ Patriciamc:
    That man who is accused comes from a great family tragedy where six of his brothers and sisters burned to death in a van accident. Very sad history in that family. I hope they are NOT a part of the cult that preaches male idolatry, but gosh, the charges are serious, yes.
    http://wgntv.com/2014/11/06/tragedy-to-triumph-the-willis-family-20-years-after-the-van-crash-that-claimed-6-of-their-9-children/

    I actually loved their show on TLC, and the backstory is very sad. They’re fundie lite, not as warped as the Duggars, but the father stated at least twice that the man is in charge. A daughter, though, stated that she and her husband would make decisions together, which I thought was interesting. Anyway, the kids are great, but the parents are very smug and controlling.

  88. Muff Potter wrote:

    From dee’s main article above:
    …She seems to focus on Brooks’ mandate to tame one’s inner evil while stressing goodness.
    Yep-there seems to be too much ruminating about good versus evil when we are simply talking about a soccer season for a 6 year old.
    the pendulum begin to swing away from a focus on taming our innate capacity for evil and toward an affirmation of our innate goodness:…
    Wait a sec. Aren’t these the same folks who insist that we have no innate goodness, and that our default condition is always ‘sin’?

    Muff, I been watching these YRR as they have children. I always wondered how their “totally depraved/totally unable condition with evil babies according to their angry God” doctrine would play out with their children. This article is one example. The doctrine is cognitive dissonance and has no practical daily application that isn’t sin sniffing madness.

  89. ishy wrote:

    For a group that talks a lot about grace, they sure are obsessed with forcing people to do things to please others.

    I’ve noticed that trend a lot, particularly on Christianity Today. They’re really into it with all their posts on the mommy wars. For heaven’s sakes, do what is best for your family and don’t worry about the approval of others!

  90. Patriciamc wrote:

    Yep, “I’m one of the Elect, so I can do whatever I want

    What I don’t get (I probably have the wrong impression) is that ‘we can do whatever we want’ thing.

    I don’t see ‘salvation’ by Our Lord as a ticket to ‘do whatever we want and it’s okay and we’re still saved’. The possibility of making shipwreck of our faith is always there, when satan roams this Earth and we are gifted/cursed with free will. The prayer ‘libera nos a malo’ was given to us by Our Lord for a real reason.

    Good grief, the Crucifixion ought to mean more to people.

  91. Patriciamc wrote:

    Deebs, you might want to keep an eye on the Willis family story (TLC show). Is this another case of the controlling, fundie father who thinks the man is always in charge – and now is accused of rape?

    He fled Cheatham County, Tennessee to hide in Muhlenberg County, Kentucky. He’s been hunkered down in the same county as our church. They found him.
    He has 12 kids, the oldest of which is 21. He was accused of committing statutory rape 12 years ago.

  92. mirele wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    No. They want to play God and put the stamp of approval on salvation. I understand being cautious with a child’s confession . . . as cautious as an adults confession of faith, no more or less.

    They really don’t trust God to save people.

    “A fanatic is someone who does what God would do If God Only KNEW What Was REALLY Going On.”
    — don’t remember where I heard that one, but it’s applicable

    And what would God ever do on J-Day without Pastor Grima Wormtongue at His right hand to tell Him who’s REALLY Saved and who’s not?

  93. Nancy2 wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:

    Deebs, you might want to keep an eye on the Willis family story (TLC show). Is this another case of the controlling, fundie father who thinks the man is always in charge – and now is accused of rape?

    He fled Cheatham County, Tennessee to hide in Muhlenberg County, Kentucky. He’s been hunkered down in the same county as our church. They found him.

    He has 12 kids, the oldest of which is 21. He was accused of committing statutory rape 12 years ago.

    “Statutory” as in Prefers Jail Bait?

  94. Wanna know the real kicker?

    When I was growing up some 40 years ago, Soccer was “Faggy”.
    REAL boys Played (N American) FOOTBALL! FOOTBALL! FOOTBALL!

  95. Christiane wrote:

    I don’t see ‘salvation’ by Our Lord as a ticket to ‘do whatever we want and it’s okay and we’re still saved’.

    We all make mistakes and do stupid things. None of us will be perfect as long as we walk this earth. But someone who uses salvation to excuse/justify bad/inappropriate behavior is obviously not saved at all.

  96. From dee’s main article above:

    …She seems to focus on Brooks’ mandate to tame one’s inner evil while stressing goodness.

    Yep-there seems to be too much ruminating about good versus evil when we are simply talking about a soccer season for a 6 year old.

    It’s called “Elevating EVERYTHING to (literally) Cosmic Importance”.

    You find it a lot among Jesus Fanboys trying to one-up each other.

  97. Nancy2 wrote:

    But someone who uses salvation to excuse/justify bad/inappropriate behavior is obviously not saved at all.

    Or they’re waving their Predestined Elect Get-Out-of-Hell-Free Card signed by God especially for them before the foundation of the world…

  98. @ GSD:

    “Well, this article certainly exasperated me! Maybe she was stuck with a deadline for her article, and this was all she could think of. I hope so, anyway.”
    +++++++++++++++

    To me, this is a prime example of how christians take themselves so dadgum seriously, to ridiculous proportion.

    and, i am so dismayed to say it, but *some* christian moms especially. i mean, really — when soccer is a moral dilemma… for a six-year old. (grave….very grave, indeed)

    😐

    gahd, i can’t get far enough away from this silly subculture. how can this woman’s article not embarrass the heck out of any christian person? to have to be associated with such things.

  99. Deb wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    I believe it’s all about CONTROL. If these children wait to be baptized with they are of legal age, they will sign the membership covenant in the process. These unsuspecting new converts have no idea that they are signing a legal contract that is staunchly enforced by church leadership.

    Feature, not Bug.

  100. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    My HUSBAND thought this, which kept our boy out of soccer. ‘Soccer, that sissy game’, my husband would say. He was always one for throwing the football around with my son.

  101. Deb wrote:

    I am very concerned about the next generation of Neo-Cals. Are their parents putting so much pressure on them during their growing-up years that they will one day leave the faith? Or that they will never truly embrace it as they move toward adulthood since Dever and gang recommend delaying baptism till they are in their late teens. Time will tell…

    The descendants of the Massachusetts Puritans ended up as Unitarian Universalist lites.

  102. Christiane wrote:

    That need to ‘control’ is rabid: if the mom can’t control her own life, then she sure as heck is going to control her kid. I think it was Headless who wrote about the phenomenon of kissing up and kicking down in Neo-Cal World.

    Actually, someone else originally posted the expression; I just picked it up and ran with it.

  103. Nancy2 wrote:

    But someone who uses salvation to excuse/justify bad/inappropriate behavior is obviously not saved at all.

    Thank you! I do hear some very fine Christian people talk about this in a way that I probably have mis-understood.

  104. @ siteseer:

    “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”
    +++++++++++

    …and not snapping the rubber band around their wrist with the mantra “i am deeply flawed”.

    ha! that’s funny!

  105. Josh wrote:

    I wonder if there’s not an undercurrent of “playing sports will make him grow up to be a straight hetero manly masculine husband of his hott with two t’s yet submissive wife” thing going on here.

    Then why Soccer?
    Why not North American FOOTBALL?
    When I was growing up 40 years ago, Soccer was “for Fags”.

  106. dee wrote:

    AnonInNC wrote:

    (Me: “I don’t camp anywhere unless they have free continental breakfast, free wi-fi, and offer AAA discounts.”)

    The same thing happened to me at Camp Muscatowa in Maine-a Girl Scout camp. My mother still has the letters I sent home which all basically said “Come and get me.” After spending two nights in pouring rain camping on top of a mountain, I vowed I would never, ever, ever camp again.

    Just for you, Dee:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jjiWS__Mp0

  107. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    That is the impression I got from one person who is admittedly a Calvinist. My impression doesn’t fit the man, though, so I’m sure my Catholic tradition is getting in the way of comprehending the language being used. The way people speak of ‘salvation’, ‘saved’, is not familiar language in a setting where people instead speak about ‘trusting in Christ’. Maybe it’s the same meaning, or similar, or not. (?)

  108. @ elastigirl:

    ‘ha! that’s funny!’
    ++++++++++++

    …i mean “the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.” (that’s what made me laugh)

  109. The more I read, the more I thought, “You have to be making this up!”

    TGC should be careful. I know a lot of folks in the SOUTHERN Baptist Convention who see soccer as a sissy, third world sport. Football, especially SEC football is king in the South! Football truly reflects the truth of the Gospel, they say, because one has to sacrifice one’s body, experience pain, and fight on every play, as one would fight the devil.

    I actually feel sort of sorry for the Mom. I DO NOT feel sorry for the editors at TGC. They have poor judgment!

  110. Divorce Minister wrote:

    this sort of teaching is also disrespectful to the Imageo Dei in this child. It is squelching of healthy living where a child is affirmed in having preferences and learning what those preferences are. Can you imagine this ending well when this child becomes a young adult, and he realizes his mom has been (ab)using religion to control him for so long?

    Yes, yes, yes.

    The piece isn’t about soccer. It’s about the mandate to find Jesus in everything, according to some standard imposed by the almighty human parent. How can a little kid possibly find Jesus through soccer?

    Our family used one point of observation and one rule:

    -How does the child feel at the end of practice? If it’s hard to get the kid to leave the field, or if he/she is obviously happy most times, this is probably a good activity to continue–but not push–regardless of skill. (We paid less attention to the attitude before practice, because kids don’t always want to leave the sanctity of the TV.)

    -Once the team has formed, you have to finish the season because your teammates need you. (Of course, we would withdraw a child if the coach was a maniac, etc.)

  111. It’s like TGC ran out of things to talk about, write about, and publish about so they had to pick on a 6 year old. It’s like women’s bible studies; I joined a weight loss bible study a few years ago. The book/study we used may a big deal about the fact over eating was simply not relying on God and how every bite had to be focused on basically being in God’s Will (TM). I quickly came to the conclusion that not only was this Bible study not for me, it really was just a ploy to get women to start feeling shame if they didn’t already feel it.

    Next time you’re in Lifeway, or on some Christian book website or store you should check out the mass amounts of studies. They’ve already covered the basics, but to continue selling books they’ve got to tap into those women that bow hunt, wear too much makeup, and don’t swim enough and somehow make that whole combination a sin.

    It’s also called Hardcore Christianity. It’s not enough to flee from sin, it’s that sin is everything and every action you do in your life. It’s (total depravity)x(infinity). This article is a good example of this.

  112. okrapod wrote:

    Better gospelly idea: this child belongs to God, not to mama. In trying to remake this child in her own image she is trying to steal from God what is legitimately His. Mama needs to repent.

    Just quoting the last paragraph, but Every Single Word of what you wrote is true, in my experience.

    If you serve a personality-disordered micro-managing joy-draining mirthless God, this is what your practical theology looks like. You start to look and behave like a personality-disordered micro-managing joy-draining mirthless mother.

  113. Gram3 wrote:

    If you serve a personality-disordered micro-managing joy-draining mirthless God, this is what your practical theology looks like. You start to look and behave like a personality-disordered micro-managing joy-draining mirthless mother.

    And a lot of those kids grow up to run far away from that mean, angry God!

  114. I don’t know if parents realize how very structured a school day is for young children; so that when they DO get home, it is actually healthy to let them unwind with some free time. I suspect a lot of parents think that if they don’t have every minute of the day planned for their child, they are lazy parents, but young children NEED a chance to run free and be out in the fresh air with friends and no structured play or agenda to answer to. That is a need that many children are deprived of, when mama is a culture-vulture and daddy is a fanatic baseball parent. A few extra-curricular activities in the afternoons each week is fine, but over-doing it is NOT at all fine.

    Of course these days, so many mothers must work and the children are in day-care after school, so just being at HOME at the end of the day is longed-for by the whole family. Too many ‘activities’ can ruin people’s lives really fast, just from the added stress and the lack of reasonable ‘time-out’ to unwind at a natural pace.

  115. This sort of ridiculous parental advice is the Christian parents version of anorexia.

    It is a dysfunctional desire to control.

  116. For me the challenge is differentiating between whmat has value long term and what doesn’t. IE, my child hates homework, I make him do it anyways. We would define that as good parenting.

    Why?

    Because we recognize that my child doesn’t understand the value for their future that doing homework today provides. To take this mothers point about soccer, I can understand how bringing God honoring conviction to bear in situations where my children want to quit something that I know they will be grateful for later.

    Now is soccer a great example…no….soccer is a terrible sport 😉 But the question is where do we draw the line between healthy “force” and that which is unwise. Even in the soccer analogy there is some nuances that can affect how we feel about it. IE, if my kid wants to sit at home and play video games and going to soccer disrupts that, I would say soccer might be a good thing.

    With that being said, there are surely better ways to manage kids unhealthy habits by helping them find other sports or healthier usages of time. Forced soccer is an example full of pitfalls for her analogy.

    One of my biggest adult regrets is that I fought with my mother over piano lessons until she gave in. Later in life I fell in love with music and have greatly regretted that she let me. She recognized my regret and “forced” my younger brother to stick to it. Today he is an accomplished accompanist who loves to play music on his beautiful piano for his wife who adores how he plays.

    Was she right to let me quit and wrong to force my brother to stick to it? Or vice versa?

  117. @ Adam Borsay:

    Ummm. I don’t know how old you are, but since you had a smattering of piano as a child you might be able to focus on adult lessons and achiever a reasonable proficiency. I say that because I was well on my way to doing that when I got sick and had to quit after 3 years, and I was in my late 70s at the time.

  118. Adam Borsay wrote:

    Was she right to let me quit and wrong to force my brother to stick to it? Or vice versa?

    I don’t think you will ever know that. You love music. Is the point of piano lessons to become proficient in playing the piano, or is it to learn to love music? Or both? If she had forced you to continue lessons, is there a guarantee that you would be a great pianist? Or might you have ended up disliking music? If you were forced to take piano lessons, what other abilities might you have passed up developing?

    Also, what Okrapod said is good advice.

  119. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    It’s like they can’t stand to see anyone truly happy. Not even their children. They won’t even let their kids be kids… 🙁

    Here’s a quote from H.L. Mencken that fits in great at this point:

    “Puritanism. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    Of course, that’s overstating it, but it really could apply to the Gospel Coalition crowd.

  120. **Trigger warning for personal description of childhood injury ### I hope that was ok to put on
    I told this before I think but maybe it will help. It is a profound thing to face your mortality in any situation, it is different and it does something to a person when they are a child in my experience. Some for the good, most not. When I was six I was burned in a fire and spent many months in the hospital and almost died. From what I was told most kids / adults go into shock or block out the event etc. I did not I remember the actual burn, where everyone was, running my Mother diving on me with a rug sitting in the bathtub with my brother telling me the story of the three bears while I was looking down at my legs just stop there. I remember the ride to the hospital, I remember being in the emergency room, them debriding the burn, they could not use pain medication on me at the time. ETC.

    What struck me was after I was in my isolation room and that was the first time I cried out to God that I remember. That night I had the first of many hell dreams, the devil going to hell to burn etc. The window appearing in the room with demons scratching at it trying to get it etc. Those dreams have never really gone away though now I see them more in humor almost laughing at times like being scared at a haunted house. Well, I have had balance walking problems and coordination issues since that event. Which made me lousy at sports which of course means I was faking the entire event to get attention.
    ***** end potential trigger issues***

    I told this story once in fellowship in response to a question etc. Of course, the response was I want attention, I was feeling sorry for myself, I need to get over it, I am lying, I am being deceptive, making stuff up, want an excuse to sin, giving room for satan, blah blah blah. I was only six when this happened so we all know how deceptive and evil six-year-olds are. I was around 14 when a dear friend of mine committed suicide in the same house when I was there. I did not see it happen but again it affected me. What I learned from faith groups in my experience, I should get over it before it happens. Not everyone just the non-elect elect like myself. I might be born again but I am not a real Christ follower or lukewarm one person told me I was Jesus vomit. I kind of like that one now in strange kind of way.

    I don’t say any of this for attention sympathy etc I always feel compelled to say that after 35+ years in the industry, I even apologized for feeling grief when I lost several family members. Religion from in the traditional sense has been nothing but a constant torment. I can’t imagine struggling with soccer as a moral dilemma. I do remember similar level issues being transcended to the cosmos crises level and decon 1 in the earthly realm by local faith groups and on tv with religious leaders. The constant againstness and fear mongering can be truly tiring. But when a person has some real, non-apologetically oriented issue they can take a hike and stop whining.

    Why I play this, this is what sermons sounded like to me almost my entire time in faith communities. I know people who think Paul Washer is a complete liberal because he evangelizes and we all know God has already selected his elect so why preach?

    https://youtu.be/o0gBhE8aiuw

    PS I have worked with people with the functional capacity of an “18 month” old baby (granted such comparisons are meaningless but for sake of his analogy) yet had the strength of an 18-year-old person. They were the gentlest people with a deep abiding spirituality.

  121. There is another side to kiddie and high school sports. Injuries. This sounds awful, but when I was in practice at one point I did a more or less accurate analysis of how much money I was making from looking at the x-rays of high school sports injuries, and I think that over a few years I made enough money to pay for at least one semester college tuition for each of my two children.

    Now I am thinking that if a kid thinks he/she has to have some sport or else they will perish, that is one thing. I have one grandchild like that. But to force a kid into something they do not want and then the kid ends up injured, what parent would want to live with that?

  122. @ Gram3:
    I agree it’s a mostly unanswerable question. The larger point is that we recognize there is a principle in place that “making” your kids do things they don’t want to is not necessarily a bad thing. Each parent knows their own child best, not that it is easy, but we have to be wise to know when to push and when to relent. Again, using soccer as THE point is unhelpful when trying to discuss the larger issue of being willing to give our kids a push towards things that they don’t “want” to do.

  123. @ siteseer:
    Yep. Besides, this is a *six year old.* Let the kid try other things, for crying out loud! Soccer (or anything else) is not the be-all and end-all.

    I feel badly for this child.

  124. @ Josh:
    Probably, though of course we all know that liking sports does not equal “straightness.” Such blindered, limited, unimaginative thinking…

    Same for a kid liking music or any of the ither arts = gay. Nope. These are abilities that occur independent of sexual orientation in both boys and girls (and adults).

  125. okrapod wrote:

    But to force a kid into something they do not want and then the kid ends up injured, what parent would want to live with that?

    In their subculture? They’re overjoyed to ‘live with it’, because after all, god orchestrated it in order to bring himself glory, right?
    (eyeroll and barf)

  126. @ Deb:
    Deb, i think they will leave *that* version of “the faith,” just like the kids who run into frustration and extreme cognitive dissonance when they start learning actual science. But nobody can *make* anyone else believe or not believe anything. That is a matter of individual choice and conscience. Too many people seem to want to live their own lives through their children, regardless of their beliefs. This is a pretty egregious example, but I’m sure lots of kids who are neither evangelical or xtian are dealing with the same pressures as i type.,.

  127. @ Max:
    I don’t think many of those psychologist deserve to be credentialed, but equally, there’s a lot of good in the field, and many good therapists and writers.

    As to the self-help bit, it’s certainly not unique to evangelicals. They got on the bandwagon later than the rest of society, but they’re fully invested in that part of publishing and mefia now, because it makes $$$.

  128. @ Max:
    I’d say further that there’s a crying need for decent info. on mental health within evangelical circles, but few will accept it, as things stand at the present time.

    Btw, this is Suicide Prevention Week, which, imo, is very much in synch with the post topic.

  129. mirele wrote:

    “Puritanism. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    Another good quote is “We’re not happy till you’re not happy.”

  130. @ okrapod:

    I used to love to water and snow ski. I talked mine into snow skiing and one of them tore up a foot/ankle badly. I still have major guilt. It was a long healing ordeal for which she had to give up her beloved basketball for a whole year. She performed a recital in her dress with that ghastly air cast. She was even baptized around it. Never again. Challenge by choice only.

  131. numo wrote:

    @ Max:
    I’d say further that there’s a crying need for decent info. on mental health within evangelical circles, but few will accept it, as things stand at the present time.
    Btw, this is Suicide Prevention Week, which, imo, is very much in synch with the post topic.

    I posted that link and others on my blog on my new website about ex-church.

    Here’s the 24/7 phone number.
    http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

  132. brian wrote:

    Why I play this, this is what sermons sounded like to me almost my entire time in faith communities.

    That sermon segment sounded like a mild version of Jonathan Edwards: “The bow of God’s wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood.”

    If that vision of God is true, then God must be a real idiot to to have created and then proceeded to love such filth as us. Thankfully, this is not the God described in the Bible. The cost of the incarnation and crucifixion shows how much God values us. Calvinists describe us as worthless. God sees us as priceless. Big difference.

  133. Max wrote:

    “Blending psychology … spirituality”
    Therein lies the problem. We’ve got too many Christian psychologists telling us how to live! The average American pulpit proclaims more psychology and philosophy than Gospel truths. The “self-help” section at Christian book stores have been moved upfront; the Bibles are in the back now. As a result, the average American church-goer is in a bigger spiritual mess than he needs to be. We’re bringing too much of the world’s thinking into the 21st century church, rather than focusing on “Thus Saith the Lord

    Thank you, Max! Been saying this for years but nobody listens 🙂

  134. brian wrote:

    I have worked with people with the functional capacity of an “18 month” old baby (granted such comparisons are meaningless but for sake of his analogy) yet had the strength of an 18-year-old person. They were the gentlest people with a deep abiding spirituality.

    Yes, they are God’s special ministers who are able to teach us humility, if we will spend some time with them. Thank you for sharing your story, and thank you for working with ‘the gentle people’. God Bless!

  135. Ken F wrote:

    The cost of the incarnation and crucifixion shows how much God values us. Calvinists describe us as worthless. God sees us as priceless. Big difference.

    I don’t think that Calvinism has a very orthodox understanding of the Incarnation at all. So, they don’t see how it fits in with the whole Pascal Mystery. It’s a real shame.

  136. I found something in the TGC article that I agree with! “Honed skills, with their accompanying freedom and beauty, come with hours of sweat and discipline.” This is true for anything worth doing well – art, mathematics, writing, athletics, music, etc. It is long hours of practice that give you improvement, and increased competence enables you to enjoy the activity = freedom and beauty. But then she goes on to say essentially that it doesn’t matter if her kid likes what he’s doing, just that he does it. I would be able to agree with her even on that if she were talking about, say, taking out the garbage and not a recreational activity.

  137. Adam Borsay wrote:

    One of my biggest adult regrets is that I fought with my mother over piano lessons until she gave in. Later in life I fell in love with music and have greatly regretted that she let me.

    Maybe you needed a different teacher, or a different instrument? It’s all 20/20 – you will never know for sure.

  138. “The cost of the incarnation and crucifixion shows how much God values us. Calvinists describe us as worthless. God sees us as priceless” — Ken F.

    Well-said. No higher value in the universe exists than “Jesus’ blood and righteousness.”

    So, given God’s valuation of us humans, would believing the calvinista dogma that we’re worthless be sin?

  139. Christiane wrote:

    I don’t know if parents realize how very structured a school day is for young children; so that when they DO get home, it is actually healthy to let them unwind with some free time.

    Ditto that. I worked for two years teaching 7th grade math classes. Each home room had a very structured 9 week phys ed class. Even the 9 week art class was very structured and controlled. Those kids have no free time, no time to relax and use their imaginations. It ‘s just back to back classes. 7 classes per day. These kids even had assigned seats at their 20 minute lunch break. What happened to PE with fitness tests, and a variety of physical activities and games? Basketball, softball, volleyball, dodge ball, kick ball, badminton, archery, flag football, tumbling …….. FREE DAYS!!?? We did all of that when I was a kid.

  140. @ brian:
    Been thinking about your story ……. At first a I felt so much sympathy for you. Then I changed my mind. You deserve more admiration than sympathy. You are amazing!

  141. Adam Borsay wrote:

    Again, using soccer as THE point is unhelpful when trying to discuss the larger issue of being willing to give our kids a push towards things that they don’t “want” to do.

    Yes, it trivializes the real issue, IMO. But is this a gospel issue? I don’t think so. “Gospel issue” has become worse than a cliche. And fretting over whether a 6 year old plays soccer for a second season strikes me as a reason to have a real problem to worry about. I was what is now known as a free-range mom. Which used to be a normal mom. Now it is a neglectful mom or a not gospelly-centered enough mom.

    My advice to this mom is to get over herself yesterday.

  142. Gram3 wrote:

    I was what is now known as a free-range mom. Which used to be a normal mom.

    Me too. But that was long ago and in a small town; my kids have not been able to do that with their kids.

  143. trs wrote:

    So, given God’s valuation of us humans, would believing the calvinista dogma that we’re worthless be sin?

    Good question. God loves and values Calvinists too – even if they are not quite sure of it. If nothing else, it’s very sad for them to have such a limited view of God. But when they teach others this trash, and when they live it out in the abusive church systems they create, then maybe sin is a good description.

  144. I could not get the link directly to this post but I think it is a critical issue in many mega superhero churches. I have seen this happen over and over again especially the ones focused on tithing and giving all you have jibberish. I hope Tom does not mind the full text post.
    “TomcatRyan MWorrell • a day ago
    I can’t tell you how many people I have seen personally harmed by Willow Creek and Gateway….. The latest a single mom struggling to raise 3 kids on poverty level wages….. She has taken all the Gateway financial courses that tell you to tithe, give beyond tithing, and give sacrificially on top of all of that…… Well she couldn’t afford all those tithes and health insurance so she paid the tithe and Jesus was going to be her health insurance for the year…..

    Well it turns out she needed surgery and she has racked up over $20,000 in medical bills…..She went to the Gateway compassion ministry for help and they told her there was nothing they could do for her and they handed her a list of 12 homeless shelters that might be able to help……which tells me a lot of poor tithing Gateway members probably end up homeless……

    The Morris, Lane and Evans families have all made themselves filthy rich on the backs of there poorest members….. And when there poor members go bust paying all those tithes they throw them out with the morning trash and tell them to contact a homeless shelter.

    I won’t get into everything at Willow but from what I have seen Bill Hybels has created more atheists then Christians retiring from Willow with a cool $50 million in the bank….. Ah its good to be on the receiving end of the tithe…..

    So no pleasant platitudes from me on what is wrong with the FOR PROFIT mega church model……”

    He has other posts there and he makes some very worthwhile observations. The post comes from this thread I think it is worth reading as well.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/09/06/things-i-learned-today-the-mark-driscoll-tullian-tchividjian-and-dustin-boles-edition/

  145. numo wrote:

    Probably, though of course we all know that liking sports does not equal “straightness.” Such blindered, limited, unimaginative thinking…

    Same for a kid liking music or any of the ither arts = gay. Nope. These are abilities that occur independent of sexual orientation in both boys and girls (and adults).

    True, although guys who like musical theatre are probably gay. #justsaying /s

  146. From the OP:

    Do I keep my kid in soccer to help him master his weaknesses, or let him keep looking and find the sport he loves?

    Is this some kind of weird TGC code-speak, where they’re using soccer as an analogy to church attendance?

    I know some of these groups y’all blog about from time to time believe people should be chained to a church’s pews.

    I had to take soccer back in high school one semester, and I didn’t like it. I guess that means I’m hopeless and lack character.

    From the OP (TGC writer lady):

    In other words, what they need is the gospel. Brooks’s New York Times bestseller echoes what the Book of Ages has said all along: We need the gospel to tell us of God’s unfailing, unrelenting love. And we need the gospel to speak to us in our sin with the upward call of Christ Jesus.

    She’s getting all that from a kid who dislikes soccer?

    TGC blog post heading: “When Quitting Soccer Is a Moral Dilemma”

    My Headline on TGC: “TGC: Majoring on the Minors”

    By the way, here is a photo of a statue of Jesus playing soccer with children:
    http://www.sportsblessings.com/catalog/images/13977.JPG

  147. @ brian:
    Do not get me started on the likes of Willow Creek type mega churches. The struggling single mom story is quite familiar. Some even give them an 8 page application where they have to explain why they are a poor single mom that goes to committee to decide…..if they want help with having the electricity turned back on.

  148. elastigirl wrote:

    what is a ‘gospel issue’? i

    Not doing what they expect. It’s a very flexible statement that turns good news into bad news.

  149. brian wrote:

    Well it turns out she needed surgery and she has racked up over $20,000 in medical bills…..She went to the Gateway compassion ministry for help and they told her there was nothing they could do for her and they handed her a list of 12 homeless shelters that might be able to help……which tells me a lot of poor tithing Gateway members probably end up homeless……

    This was at the Robert Morris Gateway church?
    A year or more before I began posting to THIS blog, I saw a post by a guy at another one. The guy left a comment in the blog’s comment box saying he used to be a member of the Morris church. He had attended there for years and volunteered. He may have tithed a lot too (I can’t recall that part)

    But he said his family came into hard financial times. He could not afford to fly himself and his four family members off to California when his father in law died. He asked Gateway Church for the funds. They refused.

    It’s been awhile since I read that guy’s post, but if I remember right, he eventually did get the money from the church to cover the cost of the plane tickets, but only after much back and forth, begging, pleading, over a period of weeks.

    I was left with the distinct impression that Gateway Church does not care about its members and is greedy. They like to take money from the Pew Potatoes but don’t like to give any out if the Pew Potatoes fall on hard times.

    I would be delighted to give the link to that guy’s post, but it was yrs ago, and I can’t remember what site it was on.

  150. Daisy wrote:

    My Headline on TGC: “TGC: Majoring on the Minors”

    Another one could be “Making all issues essential.”

  151. @ brian:

    I am so sorry you had to endure that horrific event at just 6 years old as well as the other awful experiences. Grateful that you have shared them with us here.

  152. Daisy wrote:

    I was left with the distinct impression that Gateway Church does not care about its members and is greedy. They like to take money from the Pew Potatoes but don’t like to give any out if the Pew Potatoes fall on hard times.

    Furtick Mansions and Pastor’s Travel Expenses are expensive.

    After all, ManaGAWD has to maintain the proper lifestyle for his position…

  153. numo wrote:

    @ Josh:
    Probably, though of course we all know that liking sports does not equal “straightness.” Such blindered, limited, unimaginative thinking…

    It did in my high school.
    I was “The School Fag” because of that.

  154. So, I linked and read the article. I was heartbroken, but was reminded of my own story. This is what I posted. I don’t know if it will pass muster with them and go ‘live’. I thought would post what I said here too…

    When I was 14, my parents decided to start me in organ lessons. I had been playing piano for 9 years and they decided it was time for me to start the king of instruments. (My mother was a fine organist.) They never asked me if it was what I wanted. I had not told them that piano had become a drudgery for me. I knew that they would refuse me the chance to try something else. (They had refused to let me join band in 5th grade out of concerns that it would take away from my piano lessons.) As you are now treating your son, my parents treated me.

    But, God had other plans. I auditioned for my very first play: “Our Town” by Thornton Wilder. I was cast as Emily and I discovered my true gift. On opening night, my parents stumbled backstage, tears streaming down their faces. My mother sobbed, “I never knew! Where did this come from?” I didn’t have the words to say, “It’s who I am. I don’t know where it comes from.” Now, of course, I know…it is from God. From that moment, they knew I would never make an organist. Instead, they supported every play and musical I performed in until their deaths.

    The relationship with my parents changed utterly. I was now a person to them. They began to love me in a way they had never shown before, because lifted off of them was the fearsome responsibility of delivering some sort of perfect, disciplined, hard-working young woman to God. I was no longer the child they HAD to direct, manage, control, and discipline. God was more than adequate to the task, and He would work through my using the gift He had given me. For the rest of their lives, my parents treated my acting as my gift and they never took credit for it.

    I am still acting, and more than that, my relationships within my theater communities have become my ministry. I have spent countless, fruitful days and hours producing and directing theatrical productions for my church as well.

    You do not say anywhere that you son loves soccer. It looks like he completed the last season he played and that he is not asking to leave mid season. It is obviously not his God-given gift. If it were, he would relish the work. He would ask when the next practice is. He would be nagging you to be sure to get him there on time. He would come back from practice exhausted and exhilarated.

    His next choice of ‘hobby’ might be the one that God has gifted him for. Or, it may take years for your son to have the chance to find his gift. It did for me.

    I think the real question before you is this: Is your son not liking soccer really a sin? You as much state that it is. He doesn’t like it; therefore he is rejecting all of the righteous lessons it can teach him. Do you really believe that? My dear, you are manufacturing an opportunity to exercise this ‘new’ harshness of control over your young son because you are enamored by what you have read. You are saying that your son cannot learn fortitude, stick-to-itiveness, and discipline unless he is doing something he dislikes. This is foolishness.

    You run the very real danger that you are crushing your son’s spirit. You are already communicating…TO A SIX-YEAR OLD, that he is “deeply flawed and must devote his life to overcoming weakness.” Funny, never heard Jesus say that of young children. Why are you?

    On the day your son’s God-given gift is revealed, I hope that you will celebrate your son and the good Lord who made him. However, I am afraid that you will instead be congratulating yourself for making the moment possible.

  155. Adam Borsay wrote:

    I agree it’s a mostly unanswerable question. The larger point is that we recognize there is a principle in place that “making” your kids do things they don’t want to is not necessarily a bad thing. Each parent knows their own child best, not that it is easy, but we have to be wise to know when to push and when to relent. Again, using soccer as THE point is unhelpful when trying to discuss the larger issue of being willing to give our kids a push towards things that they don’t “want” to do.

    It’s really rather simple. We make them do those things that are their duty, not those things that are meant to be recreation. There are already many things they must do. At age 6, hopefully not too many things, but age appropriate chores, school, washing up, putting away belongings, following age appropriate rules. When all of these things are not enough for the child to learn on, the parent has gone overboard. If recreation becomes another chore, when does the child recreate? And, again, it was not a matter of the child finishing out a season he was already committed to, but being forced to sign up again, against his will.

  156. Doubtful wrote:

    This sort of ridiculous parental advice is the Christian parents version of anorexia.
    It is a dysfunctional desire to control.

    Very insightful.

  157. Unepetiteanana wrote:

    Next time you’re in Lifeway, or on some Christian book website or store you should check out the mass amounts of studies. They’ve already covered the basics, but to continue selling books they’ve got to tap into those women that bow hunt, wear too much makeup, and don’t swim enough and somehow make that whole combination a sin. It’s also called Hardcore Christianity. It’s not enough to flee from sin, it’s that sin is everything and every action you do in your life. It’s (total depravity)x(infinity). This article is a good example of this.

    Wow. It seems like religious addiction.

  158. Elise wrote:

    But, God had other plans. I auditioned for my very first play: “Our Town” by Thornton Wilder. I was cast as Emily and I discovered my true gift. On opening night, my parents stumbled backstage, tears streaming down their faces. My mother sobbed, “I never knew! Where did this come from?” I didn’t have the words to say, “It’s who I am. I don’t know where it comes from.” Now, of course, I know…it is from God.

    Ahh. That’s beautiful. My little old lady friend Catherine died at 102 years old. I’d known her all of my life. She used to tell me stories about Thornton Wilder coming to her parents’ home in Berkeley, California. He was her father’s friend. Thornton Wilder’s favorite food for dinner was Chinese Egg Drop soup, which their Chinese cook made every time he came to their home. (Cath’s father was in charge of the Univ of CA at Berkeley Press. The United Nations had him print the first Declaration.)

    I have started a new blog about my abusive ex-church.

    I included Cath’s Penuche (Italian Brown Sugar Fudge) recipe at the end of my story,
    here:
    https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/2016/09/01/the-royal-law-of-love-includes-loving-a-gay-neighbor-and-not-shunning-him-when-hes-dying/

  159. Elise wrote:

    You run the very real danger that you are crushing your son’s spirit. You are already communicating…TO A SIX-YEAR OLD, that he is “deeply flawed and must devote his life to overcoming weakness.” Funny, never heard Jesus say that of young children. Why are you?

    This.

    Brava. Standing ovation.

  160. brian wrote:

    Why I play this, this is what sermons sounded like to me almost my entire time in faith communities. I know people who think Paul Washer is a complete liberal because he evangelizes and we all know God has already selected his elect so why preach?

    Brian, I’m going to share something with you that’s been extremely helpful to me in the last few weeks and I’m just amazed it took me this long to come across it. Maybe you’ll find it helpful too. It’s something another Brian, Brian Zahnd, who pastors a church in Missouri (and has kind of an amazing story) regularly says.

    “God is like Jesus.
    God has always been like Jesus.
    There has never been a time when God was not like Jesus.
    We have not always known what God is like—
    But now we do.”

    http://brianzahnd.com/2011/08/god-is-like-jesus-2/

    I can’t even begin to tell you how helpful that has been to me. I’m still a heretic, but I’m less angry about things.

  161. Muff Potter wrote:

    In their subculture? They’re overjoyed to ‘live with it’, because after all, god orchestrated it in order to bring himself glory, right?
    (eyeroll and barf)

    You know, I think the crucified Jesus is the exact opposite of the “glory” expected by the Calvinistas. They must be terribly disappointed.

  162. Elise wrote:

    You run the very real danger that you are crushing your son’s spirit. You are already communicating…TO A SIX-YEAR OLD, that he is “deeply flawed and must devote his life to overcoming weakness.” Funny, never heard Jesus say that of young children. Why are you?
    On the day your son’s God-given gift is revealed, I hope that you will celebrate your son and the good Lord who made him. However, I am afraid that you will instead be congratulating yourself for making the moment possible.

    Wow. That’s amazing!

    I’m so glad your parents saw the light and supported you as you used your true gifts. My parents said that they couldn’t tell me what my talents and calling were, that I had to tell them. My cousins though, weren’t so easy. Their father insisted that they be engineers even though they had no interest in engineering. They stood up to him finally, but it wasn’t easy.

  163. It may just boil down to a parent unleashing their own weakness, inner evil and need for the Gospel on their little child.

  164. siteseer wrote:

    @ brian:
    Unepetiteanana wrote:

    Next time you’re in Lifeway, or on some Christian book website or store you should check out the mass amounts of studies. They’ve already covered the basics, but to continue selling books they’ve got to tap into those women that bow hunt, wear too much makeup, and don’t swim enough and somehow make that whole combination a sin.

    It’s also called Hardcore Christianity. It’s not enough to flee from sin, it’s that sin is everything and every action you do in your life. It’s (total depravity)x(infinity). This article is a good example of this.

    Wow. It seems like religious addiction.

    “MY PRECCCCCIOUUUSSSSSSSSS…”

  165. Gram3 wrote:

    I was what is now known as a free-range mom.

    You’re in good company. Jesus’ mom was evidently quite the free range mom, at least on one occasion when He was 12 and left behind in Jerusalem for a few days.

  166. brian wrote:

    When I was six I was burned in a fire and spent many months in the hospital and almost died.

    Brian, what a terrifying experience to go through for anyone, much less at 6 years old. I just can’t imagine.

    I don’t know if anything is more painful than a burn. I know it is traditional Christian belief but I just cannot believe that a good God would sentence anyone to burning eternally. To me, that is insanity, and probably something that people who have not experienced serious burns throw around without even thinking it through. I lean more to the belief of Edward Fudge.

    You must have grown up with terror every time adults spoke of hell.

    The heartless things we inflict on innocent children! What must the Lord think? He said we must become as little children if we want to enter his kingdom, to me that says he thinks little children are the ideal way to be.

    I am currently reading Bessel Van Der Kolk, The Body Keeps the Score, about the lasting affects of childhood trauma and the treatments that show promise. I highly recommend it if that is something that interests you.

  167. Thank you all for the nice comments I am checking out the sites / articles mentioned it is helpful. I am truly grateful my parents were not super religious and did not push hell. I have always been a deeply religious person, even when I pretended to be an atheist I was religious if that makes sense. To be honest I have never felt really a part of this world though I have a deep hopeful love for this world ie people, nature, beauty, music, the cosmos animals plants stars etc. There is just so much wonder and religion gives a framework to try to “understand” the total transcendent God that is closer than a sibling. One of my favorite movies is “Contact” two of the scenes were when the being in the image of her father says, “small moves Ellie” and the ending

    https://youtu.be/sWrWZaPnFzY

    Granted its a bit contrived but its funny how some movies can touch a theme with us. The hope that continues to be my guiding light. I find that Hope embodied in Jesus.

  168. Elise wrote:

    You run the very real danger that you are crushing your son’s spirit. You are already communicating…TO A SIX-YEAR OLD, that he is “deeply flawed and must devote his life to overcoming weakness.” Funny, never heard Jesus say that of young children. Why are you?

    So much wisdom here, Elise …. beautifully written!

  169. Elise wrote:

    This is what I posted. I don’t know if it will pass muster with them and go ‘live’. I thought would post what I said here too…

    I don’t see it yet. But maybe they just haven’t gotten out of bed yet to read and approve it. If they never approve it, make sure you put this comment on the “My Comment Was Deleted” board. This board is also for good comments that were never approved because they were too threatening by being too profound and close to the truth.

  170. elastigirl wrote:

    what is a ‘gospel issue’?

    Whatever they want you to believe or do. It’s a thought-stopper, not a thought-provoker. They do not want people to think about what they are actually saying or the implications of what they are actually saying.

  171. Elise wrote:

    You run the very real danger that you are crushing your son’s spirit. You are already communicating…TO A SIX-YEAR OLD, that he is “deeply flawed and must devote his life to overcoming weakness.” Funny, never heard Jesus say that of young children. Why are you?

    Powerful truth which should be obvious to Bronwyn. She is putting burdens on herself and her son which Jesus would never place on them.

  172. but also that they’re deeply flawed and must devote their lives to overcoming weaknesses. In other words, what they need is the gospel.
    Even more proof that the Gospel Glitterati hasn’t got a clue what the gospel actually is.

    Having said that, I think there is a much simpler economic explanation for this article. T$C is dedicated to pumping out content to drive sales. That means they frequently publish garbage like this in order to make their product relevant to people like mothers with 6 yr olds who don’t like soccer. And so idiotic ideas get a platform. It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if this entire article is essentially a fabrication based loosely on a single event of a kid not wanting to play soccer. I’ve seen that too many times from evangelical pulpits to believe it doesn’t happen on the T$C website.

  173. @ Bridget:

    “I often listen to it twice to marinate on his insights pertaining to the culture and its changes. Great app with cogent biblical world view perspectives.”

    Also, today The Gnostic Corporation is discussing the epic biblical struggle of watching football on a Sunday.

  174. brian wrote:

    One of my favorite movies is “Contact” two of the scenes were when the being in the image of her father says, “small moves Ellie” and the ending

    It’s one of my faves too brian. I love the part where her father says something to the effect of:
    “Your species is capable of such beautiful dreams… and horrible nightmares…”

  175. Elise wrote:

    You run the very real danger that you are crushing your son’s spirit. You are already communicating…TO A SIX-YEAR OLD, that he is “deeply flawed and must devote his life to overcoming weakness.” Funny, never heard Jesus say that of young children. Why are you?

    Morbid Introspection and Over-Spiritualization, just like in all those old Puritan journals.

  176. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if this entire article is essentially a fabrication based loosely on a single event of a kid not wanting to play soccer. I’ve seen that too many times from evangelical pulpits to believe it doesn’t happen on the T$C website.

    Real kicker when a lot of the same pulpits preach that all Fiction is a LIE.

  177. @ Ruth:
    The pastor of the OPC church plant I attended for a few months (before the scales fell from my eyes, as it were) actively sought out a baseball little league group that didn’t play on Sundays for his son.

  178. Stan wrote:

    Also, today The Gnostic Corporation is discussing the epic biblical struggle of watching football on a Sunday.

    They also have an article warning about the seriousness of adultery. Who knew? How would we ever know how to live if it were not for the plethora of these articles published daily telling us how to believe and live?

  179. @ Adam Borsay:
    Maybe because I loved art music and HATED P.E. in school, I just a cannot see the two as equal in “force” value. I was bad at sports and hated the competition-centric, test-your-level aspects, so I zoned out of it all as much as I could. (I wish the required “physical education” would have been only in exercise that had health and strength benefits instead, no competition and comparison to others involved, including public weighing!)

    But my high-school choral-music teacher changed my life, absolutely. I am eternally grateful for him.

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to ramble, but forcing sports on children is one of my decades-long pet peeves.

  180. Stan wrote:

    “I often listen to it twice to marinate on his insights pertaining to the culture and its changes. Great app with cogent biblical world view perspectives.”

    Commercials too! 😉

  181. Ken F wrote:

    They also have an article warning about the seriousness of adultery. Who knew? How would we ever know how to live if it were not for the plethora of these articles published daily telling us how to believe and live?

    You’ve hit on one of the things that irks me about contemporary Christianity and has been bugging me for the last few years.

    I don’t think adults need other adults instructing them on how to manage or live out every matter in life, no matter how trivial.

    Or, for that matter, acting like Captain Obvious, as in your example you gave:
    “Hey, Christians, adultery can be a bad thing and creat problems.”

    No, really??? It can? While I’ll be. Thanks for telling me that adultery can lead to problems and is immoral. I never would’ve guessed. 🙄

    I think the Bible is totally silent on topics like adultery, so it’s good that preachers and Christian organization such as TGC write these articles telling the rest of us what to do about it or think about these things. 🙄

    I wonder about people who read such articles and think they need them – do such people even exist? (I hope not).

  182. Bridget wrote:

    Stunned interruption . . .

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/albert-mohler/id1047798664?ls=1&mt=8

    Albert Mohler has his own app?? Good grief. It is Kardashian Christianity.

    Good grief. Ugh.

    Have you ever looked at the “special interest” category on Netflix? They have these nature-set-to-music videos and in the midst of them: a video by Ed Young (1 star, lol), one by Steven Furtick (a bunch of fan reviews, wonder if they’re legit?), and a couple others. So random!

  183. Ken F wrote:

    They also have an article warning about the seriousness of adultery. Who knew? How would we ever know how to live if it were not for the plethora of these articles published daily telling us how to believe and live?

    All these writings take the place of the Bible.

    My kids were avid readers from the time they were small. But I remember one year my daughter discovered Nancy Drew mysteries (which I enjoyed as a kid, too). Once she started on those serial dramas, she lost her patience for reading real books. It was like the junk food of reading. I think people are like this with these “gospel” publications. It’s addictive in a weird way, it doesn’t require the deep thinking that reading the Bible does, it doesn’t require you to ponder or connect dots, or use faith. It’s all superficial. It fills that ‘religious’ category without connecting with God.

  184. Christiane wrote:

    I think the movie ‘Dead Poet Society’ should be required watching for all GC members in the hopes that they will cease tormenting young people by trying to ‘break their wills’

    These people would shame a mother kangaroo for carrying her young inside her pouch until they are ready to meet the world.

    Human beings are not really far from that model in God’s creation: we require closeness, touch, safety, security, nurturing to develop normally. They are so clueless, they are in opposition to God’s design and represent their sickness as if it was God’s design.

  185. Bridget wrote:

    Albert Mohler has his own app?? Good grief.

    I used to listen to his podcast way back when. At some point I realized that he spent something like 90% of his time talking about gay marriage and abortion, as if those were the only issues that any evangelical should even consider caring about. Of course, now transgenderism has replaced gay marriage as the fodder for 90% of the episodes

  186. Daisy wrote:

    I wonder about people who read such articles and think they need them – do such people even exist?

    I’m wondering it it’s an attempt to both dumb people down and also to distract them from more important issues, such as the theological shortcomings of Calvinism, the lack of biblical support for things like penal substitution and accountability groups, the mischief going on with “leaders” of the YRR movement, abuse (physical, emotional, spiritual), and the Calvinistic takeover of the SBC and whatever other denominations will be easy pickings.

  187. Edward wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    Albert Mohler has his own app?? Good grief.

    I used to listen to his podcast way back when. At some point I realized that he spent something like 90% of his time talking about gay marriage and abortion, as if those were the only issues that any evangelical should even consider caring about. Of course, now transgenderism has replaced gay marriage as the fodder for 90% of the episodes

    I don’t understand this. Is this activity on their part just another way of ‘rallying the troops’ in the Culture Wars, OR is it playing to their base?

    I hate it that some Christian people have come to this: throwing stones at a group of people who are already so troubled. The latest thing I noticed was that the more ‘political’ of these Christians have begun to spin it that transgender people have an ‘agenda’ and are ‘persecuting’ Christians.

    I don’t know where all this hatred comes from. But I do know that, for the haters, there are two main connections: money and politics.

    There is no ‘Christ’ present in the hatred and persecution of our LGBT citizens. I think He can be found more in the suffering of people than among those who throw stones at them, yes.

  188. Ken F wrote:

    I’m wondering it it’s an attempt to both dumb people down and also to distract them from more important issues, such as the theological shortcomings of Calvinism, the lack of biblical support for things like penal substitution and accountability groups, the mischief going on with “leaders” of the YRR movement, abuse (physical, emotional, spiritual), and the Calvinistic takeover of the SBC and whatever other denominations will be easy pickings.

    Hi KEN,
    are we looking at a modern movement towards a cult formation, by the aggressive neo-Cal ‘stealth invasion’ of existing ‘easy pickins’ Churches?

    Even ONE of the extra-biblical activities you describe are ENOUGH for me to think ‘cult’: look at the ‘accountability groups’ for example, an invasion of the privacy of people’s lives for purposes of control AND intimidation, with the resulting psychological entrapment and manipulation of these lives … it doesn’t get more cultic than that, does it? This is scary stuff.

  189. Christiane wrote:

    I hate it that some Christian people have come to this: throwing stones at a group of people who are already so troubled. The latest thing I noticed was that the more ‘political’ of these Christians have begun to spin it that transgender people have an ‘agenda’ and are ‘persecuting’ Christians.
    I don’t know where all this hatred comes from. But I do know that, for the haters, there are two main connections: money and politics.

    I think pride plays a big factor, too. Sadly, a lot of Christians want to be Christians because it makes them feel like they are better than others.

    And nobody in the American church ever talks about pride as a sin.

  190. I sent a few messages to Dee, but it became clear that one of my old churches was taken over by the Calvinistas, and the pastor was called while I was there. I sat in on business meetings, so I know there was no mention of Calvinism.

    They had a webpage about their private website and how everyone had to join it because it was a way of showing how committed you are to the church. The word “commit” was repeated about 20 times on the page. It was seriously disturbing. It’s clearly a way to control the actions of the members.

  191. ishy wrote:

    They had a webpage about their private website and how everyone had to join it because it was a way of showing how committed you are to the church. The word “commit” was repeated about 20 times on the page. It was seriously disturbing. It’s clearly a way to control the actions of the members.

    You are witness to that meeting, Ishy. That Church didn’t see THIS coming when they invited the pastor in. So this is the kind of activity that is being played out in many Churches where the pastor comes in without mention of Calvinism and then, after a time of socializing and politicking, the ‘changes’ begin in earnest. It IS creepy.

    What is happening at your old Chruch was meant to be stealthy. No good is meant to come from under the cover of darkness:
    ‘And why should we not say–for so they wickedly misrepresent us, and so some charge us with arguing–“Let us do evil that good may come”? The condemnation of those who would so argue is just.” (Romans 3:8)
    Very predatory, this neo-Cal activity. I think the Bible nails it in Romans 3:8

  192. Christiane wrote:

    The latest thing I noticed was that the more ‘political’ of these Christians have begun to spin it that transgender people have an ‘agenda’ and are ‘persecuting’ Christians.

    “Trans” is the New “Fag”.
    Channeling Fred Phelps…

  193. Christiane wrote:

    Very predatory, this neo-Cal activity.

    But totally justified by Divine Right of the Predestined Elect, GWRD’s Speshul Favorites.

    “RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
    — Ralph Bakshi, Wizards (mediocre but with some good lines)

  194. Elise wrote:

    You run the very real danger that you are crushing your son’s spirit. You are already communicating…TO A SIX-YEAR OLD, that he is “deeply flawed and must devote his life to overcoming weakness.” Funny, never heard Jesus say that of young children. Why are you?

    On the day your son’s God-given gift is revealed, I hope that you will celebrate your son and the good Lord who made him. However, I am afraid that you will instead be congratulating yourself for making the moment possible.

    “I don’t know if any of you remember, but using magic to force a Cutie Mark never really works out all that well.”
    –Twilight Sparkle

    Even a talking purple pony in a cartoon exhibits more wisdom than this soccer mom!

  195. Christiane wrote:

    You are witness to that meeting, Ishy. That Church didn’t see THIS coming when they invited the pastor in. So this is the kind of activity that is being played out in many Churches where the pastor comes in without mention of Calvinism and then, after a time of socializing and politicking, the ‘changes’ begin in earnest. It IS creepy.

    Exactly as Stalin did to Eastern Europe after WW2. “Salami Tactics” — one small step at a time until “URRA STALINO!”

    Sixty years ago these YRR Movement types would have been taking over for Communism instead of Calvinism.

  196. ishy wrote:

    I think pride plays a big factor, too. Sadly, a lot of Christians want to be Christians because it makes them feel like they are better than others.

    And nobody in the American church ever talks about pride as a sin.

    Hits too close to home.
    Easier to point fingers and scream at Those Homos and Trannies.

  197. @ Christiane:
    It is not hatred or persecution to disagree or to not embrace or promote issues. It is, however, “political” to couch all disagreement as hatred or persecution. I happen to disagree with both sides and say people should leave each other alone and stop with the micromanaging thought police shtick. But that is politics.

  198. @ Edward:
    I think you might be surprised at how much they have changed. I heard one last week where he was promoting religious freedom for wearing the burquini. :o)

  199. Edward wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    Albert Mohler has his own app?? Good grief.
    I used to listen to his podcast way back when. At some point I realized that he spent something like 90% of his time talking about gay marriage and abortion, as if those were the only issues that any evangelical should even consider caring about. Of course, now transgenderism has replaced gay marriage as the fodder for 90% of the episodes

    And my response would be why?? Why is he honed in on these issues instead of discipling believers? It seems to me that the “Professional Christians” we hear most about have very political messages. I don’t recall Jesus engaging the Roman culture/politics very often, if at all.

  200. Ken F wrote:

    Stan wrote:
    Also, today The Gnostic Corporation is discussing the epic biblical struggle of watching football on a Sunday.
    They also have an article warning about the seriousness of adultery. Who knew? How would we ever know how to live if it were not for the plethora of these articles published daily telling us how to believe and live?

    You guys are cracking me up. I can relate. I can’t figure out if they think we are that dumb or most of their peers really are that ignorant so they think they have to share their new found insight on non issues that are obvious? They remind me of the Hollywood stars a few decades back who finally discovered motherhood. Suddenly they had this whole new perspective they were convinced they must share with the world. What self absorbed bores!

  201. @ Bridget:

    A bigger problem is the creepy culture Mohler created for ignorant young men to emulate such as the Driscolls, Mahaneys, Chandlers, etc. Jesus did address those types.

  202. Lydia wrote:

    They remind me of the Hollywood stars a few decades back who finally discovered motherhood. Suddenly they had this whole new perspective they were convinced they must share with the world. What self absorbed bores!

    Except they’d be preening on 700 Club (or Calvinist equivalent) instead of Oprah.

    And like CELEBRITIES everywhere, all they have to “share with the world” is something like “Two Plus Two Equals FIVE” and everyone watching will bow down to worship this New Revealed Wisdom and (more important) its CELEBRITY bearer.

  203. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Love the gothic font. Apparently their graphic design department is destitute.

    I noticed that too. Many of the first editions of My Struggle (translated from the German) also had an oddly similar gothic script as title on their covers.

  204. Lydia wrote:

    It is not hatred or persecution to disagree or to not embrace or promote issues.

    Exactly. My issue was not with Mohler’s opinions per se, it was proportionality and framing of the issues. Also, he explicitly presents his opinions as “the Christian perspective”. Even when speaking on political issues where there are a variety of legitimate views, he repeatedly uses the phrase “from a Christian perspective…”. This is probably one of the main reasons that people refer to him, only half-jokingly, as the Reformed Pope.

  205. @ brian:

    Every time you post I feel your emotions in some way. I don’t I know if that makes any sense but I feel it must be a gift.

    Stan wrote:

    Also, today The Gnostic Corporation is discussing the epic biblical struggle of watching football on a Sunday.

    I saw an article the other day about how to deal with all the bazillion people who apparently skip church on Sunday to watch football. Football doesn’t start till afternoon! Maybe sermons should be shorter. Problem solved.

  206. “The Road to Character provides an opportunity for us to rethink our priorities, and strive to build rich inner lives marked by humility and moral depth.”

    I already have a book that tells me to rethink my life, get back on track and convicts me every time I open it…it’s called the Bible.

  207. OK, I had a *fun* time today at the House of Driscoll. First, let me get the car count out of the way:

    * 100 cars for the 9 am service.
    * 130 cars for the 10:45 am service.

    Today, I actually had a sermon by Brian Zahnd cued up to listen to while I stood out there with my sign. That is NOT what happened. I was barely out there five minutes when a guy from Colorado wanted to talk to me about Driscoll. He’d done his research and wanted my take. I stuck to the secular: plagiarism, gaming the NYTimes bestseller list, Global Fund. Then I talked to a young man from Sweden who said he’d come to Christ through Driscoll. He couldn’t understand why I was out there. Sometimes I have to wonder if telling people I’d heard the audible voice of God telling me to do this if they’d understand. That’s why Driscoll moved to Scottsdale–he and Grace heard the voice of God. But that’s not what happened to me, it was just common sense “people need to know about this guy.”

    At that point, something amazing happened. This guy named Benjamin rolled into the church parking lot, got out of his car and he had a sign! He’s from Australia but he used to live in Seattle and knows a lot of people who got hurt by Driscoll. So he comes out and stands on the opposite side of the entrance.

    But at the same time, it was like Benjamin’s presence was like a kick to the House of Driscoll’s hornet’s nest. They got the cop, they had a discussion by the church entrance, then the off-duty Scottsdale cop and a Driscollite came over and told Benjamin he had to move his car. The cop took Benjamin’s information and ran his name and his plates. The cop also told both of us that if we set foot on the property, we would be arrested for trespassing. I got a lot of this on video in case there was a problem. I told the Driscollite who came out with the cop to go back to Mark and tell him he was acting like Scientology. I said it several times. If Mark Driscoll can’t be shamed by good Christian behavior, maybe being called out and compared to an obnoxious space-alien cult might get his attention!

    At that point it was about 9:15 so Benjamin and I repaired to a local eatery for a chat and we had a great one. We went back out there around 10:15 and the church started letting out. We had different people come out to talk to us afterwards. One guy was absolutely convinced we were being paid to be out there. I laughed in his face and said, “Oh, that’s what the Scientologists used to say when I picketed them, that I was being paid by Eli Lilly.” Not true then and not true now! While this was going on, the police officer had spotted Benjamin’s car, parked legally on a side street and was looking at the plate, looking in the windows, etc.

    There was also a young man from the ASU journalism school who had come to listen to Driscoll as part of an assignment. He talked to both Benjamin and I. Driscoll started a sermon series on Ruth today, and this young man told me that Driscoll said fathers were supposed to say who their daughters married. I am telling the truth, I will not lie, but I said something very unprintable at that moment and he was recording me. I am trying to get the actual quote from someone because I think I need to highlight that for people in the future. People need to understand–if you are a woman, you WILL be oppressed by Mark Driscoll.

    I ended up having to call it quits about 11:10 because I was really roasting in the sun even though I’d put on sunblock twice. I appreciate Ben coming out today and I guess Todd Wilhelm gets the award for “last person to stand with mirele and also able to attend a service in the House of Driscoll”!

  208. Lydia wrote:

    I can’t figure out if they think we are that dumb or most of their peers really are that ignorant so they think they have to share their new found insight on non issues that are obvious?

    It’s part of the smoke and mirrors to hide their true mischief. They are magicians – illusionists.

  209. siteseer wrote:

    All these writings take the place of the Bible….
    it doesn’t require the deep thinking that reading the Bible does, it doesn’t require you to ponder or connect dots, or use faith. It’s all superficial. It fills that ‘religious’ category without connecting with God.

    Similarly, has anyone else’s church attempted to introduce Tim Keller’s attempt (intentionally or not) to shut down the Christian conscience, the New City Catechism?
    http://www.newcitycatechism.com/intro.php
    They were bringing this in as I was leaving CLC over a year ago. Just more confirmation that out was the right direction.

  210. mirele wrote:

    then the off-duty Scottsdale cop and a Driscollite came over and told Benjamin he had to move his car. The cop took Benjamin’s information and ran his name and his plates. The cop also told both of us that if we set foot on the property, we would be arrested for trespassing.

    Why did the off duty cop run Benjamin’s name and plates? Did the off duty cop have his police car with him? Did Benjamin break some law?

  211. mirele wrote:

    Driscoll started a sermon series on Ruth today, and this young man told me that Driscoll said fathers were supposed to say who their daughters married.

    Ugh, but also HOW does that relate to Ruth exactly? Her father was dead and she was hauled away by the Kings men anyway.

    If you have answers to this it’s possible I will have to relisten to Liam gollighers awesome sermon series on Ruth. Because at least he gets it.

  212. @ KMD:

    Why the need for catechism’s when everyone has access to Bible? Did you catch the last part of that article . . .

    “A BIBLICAL PRACTICE

    In his letter to the Galatians Paul writes, “Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor” (Galatians 6:6). The Greek word for “anyone who receives instruction” is the word katechoumenos, one who is catechized. In other words, Paul is talking about a body of Christian doctrine (“catechism”) that was taught to them by an instructor (here the word “catechizer”). The words “all good things” probably means financial support as well. In this light, the word koinoneo—which means “to share” or “to have fellowship”—becomes even richer. The salary of a Christian teacher is not to be seen simply as a payment but a “fellowship.” Catechesis is not just one more service to be paid for, but is a rich fellowship and mutual sharing of the gifts of God.

    If we re-engage in this biblical practice in our churches, we will find again God’s Word “dwelling in us richly” (Colossians 3:16), because the practice of catechesis takes truth deep into our hearts, so we find ourselves thinking in biblical categories as soon as we can reason.” Tim Keller

  213. mirele wrote:

    The cop also told both of us that if we set foot on the property, we would be arrested for trespassing.

    Have you been served notice of a restraining order or some other kind of legal document to warn you against trespassing? Of was this just a scare tactic? If you were to attend the service at some time in the future with no signs, no verbal protests, no conversations, nothing to distract anyone from the service, would they really arrest you for trespassing? Can a church do that?

  214. Bridget wrote:

    Why did the off duty cop run Benjamin’s name and plates? Did the off duty cop have his police car with him? Did Benjamin break some law?

    Well, he hadn’t broken any law at that point, but the cop gave him his first trespassing warning. If Benjamin had gone back on the property, he would have been arrested. I want to make it very clear (because there’s some weirdness on Twitter) that it is perfectly legal to be on the sidewalk.

    I was taken aback by the cop peeking in Benjamin’s car and I’m pricing out a GoPro camera to wear. I wish I didn’t have to do this, but I am definitely feeling weird at this point.

  215. Ken F wrote:

    Have you been served notice of a restraining order or some other kind of legal document to warn you against trespassing? Of was this just a scare tactic? If you were to attend the service at some time in the future with no signs, no verbal protests, no conversations, nothing to distract anyone from the service, would they really arrest you for trespassing? Can a church do that?

    I’ve been warned, so yes, I could be arrested.

    I would prefer not to be served with papers. I’m already (at least according to Scientology) under a court order not to walk on certain sidewalks in Clearwater, even though the organization I was allegedly associated with has not been in existence for almost 15 years.

    I do find it absolutely remarkable that Driscoll’s going the cult route. His sermon this morning, on Ruth, indicates he’s doubling down on complementarianism.

  216. mirele wrote:

    I was taken aback by the cop peeking in Benjamin’s car and I’m pricing out a GoPro camera to wear. I wish I didn’t have to do this, but I am definitely feeling weird at this point.

    Yes. What does something like that cost, I have no idea?

    You’re my hero, Mirelle. You must be getting him where it hurts- in the wallet -as to why they are getting more aggressive.

  217. @ mirele:

    WOW! i ‘interjected’ when i read your comment! (like school house rock on saturday mornings, 1974, at the end, “Iiiinterjection–for Emotions–and Excitement–Halelujuah–Halelujah–AMEN”

    (although the hale-whatever is not my style)

    i can see you being the inspiration for movie on all this (the whole sordid tale of the true shenanigans). There’s quite an interesting subplot developing here.

  218. mirele wrote:

    I do find it absolutely remarkable that Driscoll’s going the cult route.

    I don’t, sorry to say. He was a bully in Seattle. His character has been seen. He is simply living out who he is. He does not seem to have changed one bit.

  219. mirele wrote:

    Driscoll started a sermon series on Ruth today, and this young man told me that Driscoll said fathers were supposed to say who their daughters married.

    Please insert the exasperated/disgusted sound, gesture, or language of your choosing.

  220. mirele wrote:

    I appreciate Ben coming out today

    I don’t want either of you to be harassed, but why did they zero in on Benjamin and not you? Is he a bigger threat because he’s a man??? Anyway, I’m grateful you got some support from someone else.

  221. Patriciamc wrote:

    I don’t want either of you to be harassed, but why did they zero in on Benjamin and not you? Is he a bigger threat because he’s a man??? Anyway, I’m grateful you got some support from someone else.

    I think it’s because Benjamin made the mistake of parking in the church’s lot. He’s also a resident of Melbourne, Australia, in town to visit family, so it’s not likely this will be a problem again.

  222. mirele wrote:

    Driscoll started a sermon series on Ruth today, and this young man told me that Driscoll said fathers were supposed to say who their daughters married.

    He and Voddie Baucham would get on fabulously I’m guessin’.

  223. Thank you for telling me this story, Velour. Who knew that I would learn something about Thornton Wilder by telling my story. I’ll check out your link, now. Thanks again!
    @ Velour:

  224. Elise wrote:

    Thank you for telling me this story, Velour. Who knew that I would learn something about Thornton Wilder by telling my story. I’ll check out your link, now. Thanks again!
    @ Velour:

    Welcome, Elise. Go have Chinese food, if you like it, some time. And have a bowl of Egg Drop Soup in honor of Thornton Wilder.

    Cath also knew Amelia Earhart who flew her plane out of nearby Oakland, CA, while Cath was taking flying lessons. And Nobel Prize winners. Artists. Writers. She and her family watched the building of the Golden Gate Bridge from their home in Berkeley. They used to take the huge newspaper ferries home to Berkeley from San Francisco, after dancing the night away. The newspaper ferries delivered the newspapers, goods, and people. They had nice restaurants and people could eat after a night of dancing in the roaring 20’s.

  225. Ken F wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I can’t figure out if they think we are that dumb or most of their peers really are that ignorant so they think they have to share their new found insight on non issues that are obvious?

    It’s part of the smoke and mirrors to hide their true mischief. They are magicians – illusionists.

    Illusionists or DELUSIONISTS?

  226. Bridget wrote:

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Love the gothic font. Apparently their graphic design department is destitute.

    These Reformed guys really want to relive the 1500s . . .

    And cosplay/LARP ruling Geneva. “GOD WILLS IT!”

  227. Muff Potter wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    Driscoll started a sermon series on Ruth today, and this young man told me that Driscoll said fathers were supposed to say who their daughters married.
    He and Voddie Baucham would get on fabulously I’m guessin’.

    Yeah, isn’t this a new low for Driscoll? He’s getting into Patriarchy/Quiverfull/Gothard territory here. I just imagine that’s exactly where he’ll go because that’s where you end up if you take neo-cal beliefs to their fullest extent.

  228. mirele wrote:

    Driscoll said fathers were supposed to say who their daughters married.

    I see this as a ploy to attract men with some perceived power. He said previously (in a video) that “if you get the men, you get everything…” (paraphrased). It seemed to have been successful in Seattle, so he has evidently decided to use the same method again in the hope of attracting those who want the power and control and will provide a hefty tithe at the same time.

  229. mirele wrote:

    I think it’s because Benjamin made the mistake of parking in the church’s lot. He’s also a resident of Melbourne, Australia, in town to visit family, so it’s not likely this will be a problem again.

    Oh, okay. That makes sense. Maybe now others will join you.

  230. Edward wrote:

    Even when speaking on political issues where there are a variety of legitimate views, he repeatedly uses the phrase “from a Christian perspective…”. This is probably one of the main reasons that people refer to him, only half-jokingly, as the Reformed Pope.

    Who was the one who flew with a film crew to Geneva itself and filmed a “retirement” video claiming himself the TRUE heir of Calvin? (Like Fatima’s husband and Ali both claimed to be the TRUE heir of Mohammed.)

  231. Velour wrote:

    Ahh. That’s beautiful. My little old lady friend Catherine died at 102 years old. I’d known her all of my life. She used to tell me stories about Thornton Wilder coming to her parents’ home in Berkeley, California. He was her father’s friend. Thornton Wilder’s favorite food for dinner was Chinese Egg Drop soup, which their Chinese cook made every time he came to their home. (Cath’s father was in charge of the Univ of CA at Berkeley Press. The United Nations had him print the first Declaration.)

    Cool! Oh, and I promise I’ll visit your new blog. : )

  232. Bridget wrote:

    Why did the off duty cop run Benjamin’s name and plates? Did the off duty cop have his police car with him? Did Benjamin break some law?

    Was the off duty cop a member of Driscoll’s church?

  233. @ mirele:
    I am trying to wrap my head around this. One woman protesting is not a threat to Driscoll but add one man and it becomes a threat?

    My gratitude to Ben, too!!!

  234. Patriciamc wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Ahh. That’s beautiful. My little old lady friend Catherine died at 102 years old. I’d known her all of my life. She used to tell me stories about Thornton Wilder coming to her parents’ home in Berkeley, California. He was her father’s friend. Thornton Wilder’s favorite food for dinner was Chinese Egg Drop soup, which their Chinese cook made every time he came to their home. (Cath’s father was in charge of the Univ of CA at Berkeley Press. The United Nations had him print the first Declaration.)
    Cool! Oh, and I promise I’ll visit your new blog. : )

    Thank you!

  235. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Edward wrote:
    Even when speaking on political issues where there are a variety of legitimate views, he repeatedly uses the phrase “from a Christian perspective…”. This is probably one of the main reasons that people refer to him, only half-jokingly, as the Reformed Pope.
    Who was the one who flew with a film crew to Geneva itself and filmed a “retirement” video claiming himself the TRUE heir of Calvin? (Like Fatima’s husband and Ali both claimed to be the TRUE heir of Mohammed.)

    Wait, wait. I think I know the answer. John Piper.

    Do I win a cool car? Better yet, can I win shooting lessons from a woman cop at the range?
    Can I give directions to men?

  236. Ken F wrote:

    Can a church do that?

    Oh I have seen several seeker megas do this. These days with facial recognition software, it is becoming much easier to track people on campus.

  237. @ mirele:
    You should feel weird. It is a very healthy red flag when it comes to Driscoll. I don’t put anything past him. I wish there were others there watching your back.

  238. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    Why did the off duty cop run Benjamin’s name and plates? Did the off duty cop have his police car with him? Did Benjamin break some law?

    Was the off duty cop a member of Driscoll’s church?

    Usually they aren’t. Mega churches pay well for off duty to direct traffic and deal with outside security issues. It is win/win. Cops are so low paid they like the easy non threatening duty for better pay. It is also one way to buy loyalty.

  239. AnonInNC wrote:

    This ironically also ties in to my church’s Man Day events, because there’s definitely a stigma that you’re in the wrong if you don’t go and participate in these things (the whole “Be there or be a girl” tagline.)

    Do people in churches ctually say that thing about “Be there or be a girl”?

    I’m in the UK, so the cultural situation may be a bit different… However, I always found it interesting that when there’s a ‘men’s evening’ at church (Once or twice a year, usually including a curry and a talk about stuff that is supposedly relevant to men) the additional activities tend to be more physically oriented (i.e. sports, board games, maybe videogames like Wii Sports)… But if it’s a women’s evening, the activities are generally some kind of crafts.

    Why can’t I do the crafts? I’ve always enjoyed making something creative with colours, paper, clay, sowing… What if the women want to play some games?

    And, by the way, what is it with all those songs that have parts for men or for women, and they’re always sung in the same way? Often I change it and sing the part that doesn’t correspond me, just for the sake of it.

  240. @ Lea:

    For some reason I flipped Ruth and esther in my head.

    But did Ruth’s dad pick Boaz? No. So it’s still equally dumb.

  241. @ Martos:

    I’m across The Pond in California. I have the same problems with these churches the way you do. I also wanted to do sports, etc., and stop with the women only crafts. Wearied of crafts.
    Women weren’t permitted to do sports, have mixed groups (men and women). The whole thing got very old.

    Like you, I got tired of being told when to sing for the women’s part. So I started singing the men’s part.

  242. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “I don’t know if any of you remember, but using magic to force a Cutie Mark never really works out all that well.”
    –Twilight Sparkle

    Even a talking purple pony in a cartoon exhibits more wisdom than this soccer mom!

    More Foolish things to confound the Wise (and Elect):

    Currently catching up on latest MLP:FIM episodes with a little binge-watching, and the episode before the current one was about NOT pushing someone into sports.

  243. mirele wrote:

    and this young man told me that Driscoll said fathers were supposed to say who their daughters married

    Soooooooo, how long before MD auctions his daughters off to the highest bidders? And, did Grace’s father tell her to marry MD?
    btw, where was Ruth’s father when she married Boaz?

  244. You are a trooper!!

    mirele wrote:

    OK, I had a *fun* time today at the House of Driscoll. First, let me get the car count out of the way:
    * 100 cars for the 9 am service.
    * 130 cars for the 10:45 am service.
    Today, I actually had a sermon by Brian Zahnd cued up to listen to while I stood out there with my sign. That is NOT what happened. I was barely out there five minutes when a guy from Colorado wanted to talk to me about Driscoll. He’d done his research and wanted my take. I stuck to the secular: plagiarism, gaming the NYTimes bestseller list, Global Fund. Then I talked to a young man from Sweden who said he’d come to Christ through Driscoll. He couldn’t understand why I was out there. Sometimes I have to wonder if telling people I’d heard the audible voice of God telling me to do this if they’d understand. That’s why Driscoll moved to Scottsdale–he and Grace heard the voice of God. But that’s not what happened to me, it was just common sense “people need to know about this guy.”
    At that point, something amazing happened. This guy named Benjamin rolled into the church parking lot, got out of his car and he had a sign! He’s from Australia but he used to live in Seattle and knows a lot of people who got hurt by Driscoll. So he comes out and stands on the opposite side of the entrance.
    But at the same time, it was like Benjamin’s presence was like a kick to the House of Driscoll’s hornet’s nest. They got the cop, they had a discussion by the church entrance, then the off-duty Scottsdale cop and a Driscollite came over and told Benjamin he had to move his car. The cop took Benjamin’s information and ran his name and his plates. The cop also told both of us that if we set foot on the property, we would be arrested for trespassing. I got a lot of this on video in case there was a problem. I told the Driscollite who came out with the cop to go back to Mark and tell him he was acting like Scientology. I said it several times. If Mark Driscoll can’t be shamed by good Christian behavior, maybe being called out and compared to an obnoxious space-alien cult might get his attention!
    At that point it was about 9:15 so Benjamin and I repaired to a local eatery for a chat and we had a great one. We went back out there around 10:15 and the church started letting out. We had different people come out to talk to us afterwards. One guy was absolutely convinced we were being paid to be out there. I laughed in his face and said, “Oh, that’s what the Scientologists used to say when I picketed them, that I was being paid by Eli Lilly.” Not true then and not true now! While this was going on, the police officer had spotted Benjamin’s car, parked legally on a side street and was looking at the plate, looking in the windows, etc.
    There was also a young man from the ASU journalism school who had come to listen to Driscoll as part of an assignment. He talked to both Benjamin and I. Driscoll started a sermon series on Ruth today, and this young man told me that Driscoll said fathers were supposed to say who their daughters married. I am telling the truth, I will not lie, but I said something very unprintable at that moment and he was recording me. I am trying to get the actual quote from someone because I think I need to highlight that for people in the future. People need to understand–if you are a woman, you WILL be oppressed by Mark Driscoll.
    I ended up having to call it quits about 11:10 because I was really roasting in the sun even though I’d put on sunblock twice. I appreciate Ben coming out today and I guess Todd Wilhelm gets the award for “last person to stand with mirele and also able to attend a service in the House of Driscoll”!

  245. Lydia wrote:

    These days with facial recognition software, it is becoming much easier to track people on campus.

    I was just wondering about the legality of arresting people just for attending church because churches tend to be very public – especially attractional churches. It would seem that there would have to be some kind of a threat in order to make an arrest and press charges that would stick. I wonder if that church puts the same attention on screening offenders…

  246. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Was the off duty cop a member of Driscoll’s church?

    No. He was hired by the church. But I know that off-duty cops can arrest you just as thoroughly as on-duty cops. My continued goal is to picket legally and let people know about Driscoll.

  247. Nancy2 wrote:

    btw, where was Ruth’s father when she married Boaz?

    Nowhere to be found. It was crafty Naomi (an uppity woman!) who saw where the wind was blowing and decided to pursue it.

  248. Ken F wrote:

    I was just wondering about the legality of arresting people just for attending church because churches tend to be very public – especially attractional churches. It would seem that there would have to be some kind of a threat in order to make an arrest and press charges that would stick. I wonder if that church puts the same attention on screening offenders…

    Not that I have absolutely ANY wish to do what these men did, and I think The Church of Wells is a cult, but Joel Osteen had several men who heckled him at Lakewood Church in Houston arrested. A year later, several of them were found not guilty. (I believe others are still to be tried.) I’m not sure why the charges were dropped, but I suspect that it may have to do with the fact that the men were probably NOT given a warning before being arrested, or given a chance to leave. I have been warned.

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/men-arrested-for-heckling-joel-osteen-lakewood-church-found-not-guilty-165580/

    I think it’s quite possible at this point to conduct legal protests in front of The Trinity Church.

  249. Deb wrote:

    I am very concerned about the next generation of Neo-Cals. Are their parents putting so much pressure on them during their growing-up years that they will one day leave the faith?

    I suspect that many young folks raised in the aberrations of New Calvinist belief and practice will part ways with it as they reach adulthood and are exposed to other Christian faiths – hopefully, the real one! I liken it to children raised under the strict do and don’t of extreme Pentecostalism. For example, young girls who must wear long dresses, long hair, no make-up, walk behind daddy, etc. often rebel against the family religion once they are out on their own.

  250. Ken F wrote:

    Stan wrote:

    Also, today The Gnostic Corporation is discussing the epic biblical struggle of watching football on a Sunday.

    They also have an article warning about the seriousness of adultery. Who knew? How would we ever know how to live if it were not for the plethora of these articles published daily telling us how to believe and live?

    Wouldn’t not cheating on your spouse be “trying to earn your own salvation”? Good thing we have Challies to explain why that’s actually bad.

  251. Stan wrote:

    Wouldn’t not cheating on your spouse be “trying to earn your own salvation”? Good thing we have Challies to explain why that’s actually bad.

    Depending on the spouse, cheating could be a way to expedite meeting one’s maker.

  252. Martos wrote:

    I’m in the UK, so the cultural situation may be a bit different… However, I always found it interesting that when there’s a ‘men’s evening’ at church (Once or twice a year, usually including a curry and a talk about stuff that is supposedly relevant to men) the additional activities tend to be more physically oriented (i.e. sports, board games, maybe videogames like Wii Sports)… But if it’s a women’s evening, the activities are generally some kind of crafts.
    Why can’t I do the crafts? I’ve always enjoyed making something creative with colours, paper, clay, sowing… What if the women want to play some games?

    My former church was Methodist and egalitarian, and the women’s groups did crafts while the men’s groups had speakers on national events, etc. I wanted to hear the speakers and not do the crafts. Actually, I found the women’s group to be silly, so I didn’t go back.

  253. Martos wrote:

    AnonInNC wrote:
    This ironically also ties in to my church’s Man Day events, because there’s definitely a stigma that you’re in the wrong if you don’t go and participate in these things (the whole “Be there or be a girl” tagline.)
    Do people in churches ctually say that thing about “Be there or be a girl”?
    I’m in the UK, so the cultural situation may be a bit different… However, I always found it interesting that when there’s a ‘men’s evening’ at church (Once or twice a year, usually including a curry and a talk about stuff that is supposedly relevant to men) the additional activities tend to be more physically oriented (i.e. sports, board games, maybe videogames like Wii Sports)… But if it’s a women’s evening, the activities are generally some kind of crafts.
    Why can’t I do the crafts? I’ve always enjoyed making something creative with colours, paper, clay, sowing… What if the women want to play some games?
    And, by the way, what is it with all those songs that have parts for men or for women, and they’re always sung in the same way? Often I change it and sing the part that doesn’t correspond me, just for the sake of it.

    Indeed, my church did use that line, for a men’s only (American) football social event. The phrase was included on the event’s Facebook page and was said during a church promotional video. So because I’m a male of a small build and have issues with my knees, that makes me a girl, apparently. Maybe I should come in one week dressed as a girl and see how they react.

    What is interesting about my church is that the men’s only, women’s only, and mixed gender socials almost always involve physical activities (i.e., upcoming the men get paintball and the women get a self-defense class. Previously it has been the men go to a shooting range and the women ice skate, etc., while mixed gender activities have been hiking, camping, white water rafting, etc.) I can’t do any of that.

    At least our church doesn’t do songs with separate men and women lyrics. Not that you’d hear any congregational singing (and sometimes chanting the same 2-3 lines 18 times in a row) over the loud rock band they have in there anyway.

  254. mirele wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    btw, where was Ruth’s father when she married Boaz?
    Nowhere to be found. It was crafty Naomi (an uppity woman!) who saw where the wind was blowing and decided to pursue it.

    Yep. And all conniving resulted in the widowed Ruth, who married Boaz, becoming one of Jesus’ grannies. Where would be be without conniving and uppity women????

  255. @ Ken F:

    I do know of a few instances where some were arrested when they caused what was described by security staff as a “disturbance” in or around the campus. I never knew what the charges were but I do know they were escorted out of the building by plain clothes mega security who notified police. In a big mega, very few actually witness such a thing. They know what they are doing and the goal is discretion.

    I have no doubt Joel Osteen has charged people. It happens more than people think but rarely gets much publicity. Mega church Pastors are some of the most thin skinned and cowardly guys out there. You would think Joel Osteen would have more faith in his “Best Life Now” God he tells everyone else to trust.

  256. mirele wrote:

    Nowhere to be found. It was crafty Naomi (an uppity woman!) who saw where the wind was blowing and decided to pursue it.

    Amen! The Wind is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit in many Bible passages.

  257. Daisy wrote:

    ESV Bible Is Now ‘Permanent,’ to Remain Unchanged in Future Editions Like KJV
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/esv-bible-is-now-permanent-to-remain-unchanged-in-future-editions-like-kjv-169413/

    Really? The KJV went through at least six major editions. The KJV people use today is not the one of 1611 but the one of 1769. The 1611 version has spelling in it which would throw the average reader. I can’t believe the ESV people went with something this dumb.

  258. Daisy wrote:

    ESV Bible Is Now ‘Permanent,’ to Remain Unchanged in Future Editions Like KJV
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/esv-bible-is-now-permanent-to-remain-unchanged-in-future-editions-like-kjv-169413/

    Because the English Language Steering Committee voted unanimously that no changes will be made to the English language so the ESV folks can have their translation remain current for the duration of its copyright. /s

    I had to look twice to make sure I wasn’t reading an article at the Babylon Bee. Good grief!

  259. Just wanted to encourage mirele to keep up the protests at Driscoll’s “church”. Keeping the numbers down protects the innocent. Praise God for your determination.

  260. @ Patriciamc:

    “My former church was Methodist and egalitarian, and the women’s groups did crafts while the men’s groups had speakers on national events, etc. I wanted to hear the speakers and not do the crafts. Actually, I found the women’s group to be silly, so I didn’t go back.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    ridiculous.

    why can’t we have People’s Liberation and make all these things available and welcoming to everyone?

    i’m with you — crafts…. yuck. the tame & boring predictable cuteness is just too much to handle.

    Engage my brain, please.

    i’m amazed at how little church leaders know & understand about people. it’s like they believe with all their heart & soul in the most simplistic of stereotypes. no one fits these cardboard stereotypes.

    it’s a wonderful fact that humans are multi-faceted, made up of complex combinations. makes life on earth so interesting. makes people so fabulous. church dumbs everything and everyone down, reduces us all down to the generic he/she silhouettes on the restoom doors.

  261. elastigirl wrote:

    i’m with you — crafts…. yuck. the tame & boring predictable cuteness is just too much to handle.

    Along with having to dress up for these ladies’ events. It all got so very old. Dresses/skirts, panty hose, jewelry, hours spent at some ladies’ event, most of the day eaten up.

    The men from Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley got to go to Giants baseball games at the stadium in San Francisco, golfing, fishing, zip lines in the redwood trees in the Santa Cruz Mountains, bike riding at Lake Tahoe, and on and on.

    OK, I like baseball. I like fishing. I like trees. I like mountains. I like wearing jeans and boots or sneakers. I don’t like having to dress up all of the time.

    Engage my brain, my wardrobe, my smile, the sun on my skin….etc.

  262. I haven’t followed all of this thread, so firstly, apologies if I’m repeating ground already covered.

    Point 1 of 2

    I can’t comment on the specific case in question, i.e. the wean* being forced to keep doing fitba’, without knowing exactly what it is/was he didn’t like about fitba’, what in detail persuaded his mother that he needed to persist with it, or what alternatives to fitba’ were available. Or, indeed, what the family relationships were like, and how his mother was developing and expressing her gifts.

    Point 2 of 2

    However, in general it is a terrible waste when a child is stuck in a subject or discipline (s)he is no good at, when there are better alternatives available right next door. One summer at primary school, my year was split into groups during outdoor games and the groups rotated around different sports. So far so good… except that my group, for some reason, got stuck on “throwing the cricket ball” – which is not even a sport – for weeks on end. I have a very high predominance of slow-twitch muscle fibres. This makes me irredeemably poor at throwing events, but very good at cross-country running.

    Well, at secondary school, I did get properly into cross-country running. I did it well, too; I trained, got better, represented the school and the district, and loved it; 30-odd years later I still love it. But to this day, I look back with some frustration at the fact that I was forced to waste those afternoons disciplining myself for nothing, when I could have been disciplining myself towards something.

    Point 3 of 2

    The general idea of forcing children, women, and the huddled masses of churchMembers into roles that are convenient for the vision of the leadership, is a common theme in hierarchical church. I do believe that Jesus appoints apostles today; but an apostle who sits at the apex of a pyramid is a false (or corrupted) apostle, because he is not equipping the saints for the work of service (this from Ephesians 4) but corralling the saints to staff his personal dreams.

    * “Wean” is Scots for “child”; it is a contraction of “wee yin” (little one) and is pronounced “wane”, but only works in a Glasgow accent.

    IHTIH

  263. The church I’ve attended for the past few years has an Arts Café once a week where anyone can go along and take whatever arty or crafty thing you’re busy with and work on it there in likeminded company. The group also alternates meeting mornings and evenings.

  264. Huh, I just turned in my weekly 5 page psychology paper for online class. The assignment was on health issues in middle childhood. The kind of psychological trauma this mother is advocating for her middle childhood aged son will cause physical health issues in his adulthood. Don’t any of these people read expert advice on child rearing before they go all control freak on their kids?

  265. mirele wrote:

    But at the same time, it was like Benjamin’s presence was like a kick to the House of Driscoll’s hornet’s nest.

    Now this is interesting. Knowing how Driscoll thinks, does it somehow legitimize the protest once a man shows up?

  266. Velour wrote:

    Along with having to dress up for these ladies’ events. It all got so very old.

    I was about to ask why you didn’t just skip but then I remembered it was one of those crazy churches where they care.

    I don’t mind a male /female only events but I don’t want them to all be that way. (I actually enjoy a tea party or something girly every now and then) But a lady at church keeps trying to convince me to join the bible study and I think she means well but I kind of want to know what we are actually study’Ing first! I did tell her I don’t want a girly bible study.

  267. @ Estelle:

    I think the during the day women’s thing includes crochet/knitting for those who want to but doesn’t require which is a good compromise.

    I am not crafty at all. I wouldn’t mind doing some adult coloring though.

  268. Jack wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    But at the same time, it was like Benjamin’s presence was like a kick to the House of Driscoll’s hornet’s nest.
    Now this is interesting. Knowing how Driscoll thinks, does it somehow legitimize the protest once a man shows up?

    Sadly, yes. I mean, a mere female getting all uppity is bad enough, but then a sacred male shows up? Pearl clutching time!

  269. elastigirl wrote:

    i’m amazed at how little church leaders know & understand about people. it’s like they believe with all their heart & soul in the most simplistic of stereotypes. no one fits these cardboard stereotypes.
    it’s a wonderful fact that humans are multi-faceted, made up of complex combinations. makes life on earth so interesting. makes people so fabulous. church dumbs everything and everyone down, reduces us all down to the generic he/she silhouettes on the restoom doors.

    Do not get me started on the singles group! I might have to pull out my French-milled soap box for that. Let’s just say that singles are not big youth!

  270. Lea wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Along with having to dress up for these ladies’ events. It all got so very old.
    I was about to ask why you didn’t just skip but then I remembered it was one of those crazy churches where they care.

    You remembered correctly.

    Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, my former gulag [diguised as a *church* for the unwary] is one of those high-control, authoritarian, cultic, heavy-Shepherding-from-the-1970’s-“we-care-so-much-you-can’t-run-your-own-life-without-pastors/elders-insufferable-‘care’/control, Thought-Reform, groups.]

    ‘Care’ involved countless meetings and being screamed at by the pastors/elders to show they ‘care’.

  271. Patriciamc wrote:

    I mean, a mere female getting all uppity is bad enough, but then a sacred male shows up?

    Don’t these ‘male-headship’ types REALIZE that their extreme insistence on male-importance and their extreme insistence on belittling women REVEALS a deep insecurity about their own manhood???? As Shakespeare’s character said in my humble paraphrase: ‘methinks they protest TOO MUCH’.
    When the gender thing goes as far as these men have to take it to feel ‘secure’, something must really be wrong with these pitiful men, either physically or psychologically (or both).

    I mean, look at Piper. Good grief, every time a healthy toned tanned woman walks passed him, he must flutter and clutch his pearls. Poor man.

  272. @ Christiane:
    My point is that in the humility of mankind BEFORE THE LORD, they will also find their strength, which is at once the truest thing I know and also a great paradox taught to us by Christ Himself.

    And when the male egos of the ‘male-headship’ boys rely so heavily on quelling the strength of women by making women humble before themselves, these men lose something very, very valuable in the process. They will have to keep on INCREASING the hell they put on victims in order to shore up that phony flagging manhood, until it comes to the point where they themselves have no place left to hide.

  273. Elise wrote:

    But, God had other plans. I auditioned for my very first play: “Our Town” by Thornton Wilder. I was cast as Emily and I discovered my true gift.

    Robin:
    And I too have found my grail.

    Ensemble:
    What’s that?

    Robin:
    Musical Theatre!
    (singing)

    Robin:
    You can sing
    You can dance
    And you won’t soil your pants
    In your white tie and tail
    Find your Grail
    Find your Grail

    Spamalot

  274. Christiane wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    I mean, a mere female getting all uppity is bad enough, but then a sacred male shows up?
    Don’t these ‘male-headship’ types REALIZE that their extreme insistence on male-importance and their extreme insistence on belittling women REVEALS a deep insecurity about their own manhood???? As Shakespeare’s character said in my humble paraphrase: ‘methinks they protest TOO MUCH’.
    When the gender thing goes as far as these men have to take it to feel ‘secure’, something must really be wrong with these pitiful men, either physically or psychologically (or both).
    I mean, look at Piper. Good grief, every time a healthy toned tanned woman walks passed him, he must flutter and clutch his pearls. Poor man.

    Spot on!

  275. @ Max:

    Calvinism is sold as the lost wisdom of the romantic past. Watch them follow the lead of their Puritan forebears and go Unitarian when Calvinism doesn’t have all the answers neither.

  276. Stan wrote:

    @ Max:

    Calvinism is sold as the lost wisdom of the romantic past.

    The Occult Gnosis known only to The Illuminated….

  277. Christiane wrote:

    And when the male egos of the ‘male-headship’ boys rely so heavily on quelling the strength of women by making women humble before themselves, these men lose something very, very valuable in the process. They will have to keep on INCREASING the hell they put on victims in order to shore up that phony flagging manhood, until it comes to the point where they themselves have no place left to hide.

    And where is that point?

    The Saudis, the Talibani, and ISIS/Daesh have gone a LONG way down that road and they’re still haven’t hit that point.

  278. Daisy wrote:

    Isn’t this the Bible of choice for Neo-Calvinists?

    ESV Bible Is Now ‘Permanent,’ to Remain Unchanged in Future Editions Like KJV
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/esv-bible-is-now-permanent-to-remain-unchanged-in-future-editions-like-kjv-169413/

    Once you have reached Utter Perfection, ANY change at all is a Decline into Imperfection that must be crushed. Just ask Citizen Robespierre, Comrade Kim Jong-Un, and Mullah Omar.

  279. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And where is that point?

    The Saudis, the Talibani, and ISIS/Daesh have gone a LONG way down that road and they’re still haven’t hit that point.

    Well, it’s coming. Wait until you read what the Deebs are putting up today about Boles. That ‘head-ship’ ego trip only leans one way: humilating women. After a while, even the most faithful to these monsters must cringe and instead of just ‘looking away’, walk away. An out-of-control ego is primed for abuse, and when the victims are ALREADY ‘humbled’, it’s like full speed ahead with no breaks on the testosterone: the victims are already trained to ‘keep silent’ and ‘keep sweet’. So sick, this cult-ure.

  280. Stan wrote:

    Calvinism is sold as the lost wisdom of the romantic past. Watch them follow the lead of their Puritan forebears and go Unitarian when Calvinism doesn’t have all the answers neither.

    Well, there is no doubt that New Calvinists are acting like they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the “gospel” that the rest of Christendom has lost. However, I don’t find anything “romantic” in their aggressive behavior to convince us of that lie! As Al Mohler said about the young reformers ““Where else are they going to go? If you’re a theological minded, deeply convictional young evangelical … your theology is just going to end up basically being Reformed … there just are not options out there …” That sort of “no options” preaching is drawing a crowd of the disillusioned and curious from not only Baptist ranks, but across various denominations. In that sense, the movement is already becoming “unitarian” by uniting folks under a common reformed banner. Strict Unitarians, of course, reject the Trinity by maintaining that God is one being. New Calvinism’s belief in the Eternal Subordination of the Son and diminished teaching on the Holy Spirit are steps in that direction. Calvinism, Unitarianism, and other such aberrations do not have a corner on the Truth – the Bible does however, not cherry-picked interpretations of it.

  281. Daisy wrote:

    Isn’t this the Bible of choice for Neo-Calvinists? ESV Bible …

    Yes. It is the holy grail of New Calvinism. The ESV Study Bible, with its Calvinist commentary, sits at the top of the pyramid of all Bibles ever produced! Only it contains truth expressed in a manner consistent with reformed theology. The ESV is produced by Crossway Publishers, the place to go for all things Calvinist.

  282. @ Max:
    Here’s how I view the New Calvinists. If they are in the center of God’s will, then they will prevail. However, if they are not, then it’s just a matter of time before the walls they have built come crashing down upon them.

    Here’s Carl Trueman’s latest pronouncement regarding the Neo-Cals:

    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/postcards-from-palookaville/all-about-identity#.V9a3L7WXtFU

    These mass organizations will start to fracture and dissipate in the next five years. There is now too much of a distance between the left and the right in some groups for them to hold a coherent identity together other than by an act of sheer will. Others have been exposed as being indifferent to seriously deviant theology. And now the donor-base public is beginning to see something of the sharp practices that operate out of sight, as with the backroom bullying and browbeating of Todd Pruitt — a minister of the gospel, for pity’s sake! The language of gospel piety always drips very easily in public from the lips of those who know that the iron fists of the Machine are quietly crushing critical windpipes off camera.

    My frustration with those at Mortification of Spin is that in one segment they are endorsing Mark Dever’s 9Marks, and then they make these bold statements about the theological movement Dever helped build.

  283. Stan wrote:

    @ Max:
    Calvinism is sold as the lost wisdom of the romantic past. Watch them follow the lead of their Puritan forebears and go Unitarian when Calvinism doesn’t have all the answers neither.

    Stan, I think they are already inching that way with a more social Gospel desperately trying to change the subject.. Russ Moore seems to be the talking head point man. But I am seeing careful snippets of affirmation out of Mohler and many of his vocal followers.

    I am constantly amused these patriarchal determinists are now decrying racism. Mohler even changed his stance on homosexuality and genetics. TGC even ran an OP by a celibate homosexual church planter.

    The question is not whether they have the correct stance on those issues but whether this is another political strategy for potential followers. All I know is they seem desperate to change the conversation from doctrine to social issues.

    I also know for a fact Russ Moore is not writing NYT or WaPo Op Eds insisting on his decades old pet issue, patriarchy. :o) That would not sell. The other issues sell. I just hope people do their homework.

  284. Deb wrote:

    The language of gospel piety always drips very easily in public from the lips of those who know that the iron fists of the Machine are quietly crushing critical windpipes off camera.

    I love this.

  285. Lydia wrote:

    The question is not whether they have the correct stance on those issues but whether this is another political strategy for potential followers.

    Of course it is. It’s all show, as far as I’m concerned.

    They want the promo materials to look good, but when real people are being hurt that stuff doesn’t matter nearly so much.

  286. ULea wrote:

    @ Estelle:
    I think the during the day women’s thing includes crochet/knitting for those who want to but doesn’t require which is a good compromise.
    I am not crafty at all. I wouldn’t mind doing some adult coloring though.

  287. Deb wrote:

    My frustration with those at Mortification of Spin is that in one segment they are endorsing Mark Dever’s 9Marks, and then they make these bold statements about the theological movement Dever helped build.

    I think this ‘split-personality’ reveals discomfort with the Dever program’s excesses ….. all that control stuff sounds good until it gets in the hands of them what use it to hurt people. That example about Todd Pruitt shows a very great deal of frustration and discomfort with those at the ‘edge’ of freak-control cultism who LOVE the 9 Marks ‘okay’ to move forward with their ‘programs’ (under ‘stealth’, of course)

    Maybe Boy Carl is feigning waking up to what 9 Marks sowing is capable of yielding….. like he didn’t have a clue it would come to these extremes? He doesn’t want to be identified with the extremists, looks like. ?

  288. @ Deb:
    Yeah, I predicted the demise of the Megas 15 years ago, too. Hee Hee. Is Trueman aware of the “comeback kid” strategy? These people are constantly reinventing themselves and the institutions with no explanation of past behavior or changing doctrine.

    I am sad he is offended at the bullying of a minister of the Gospel but what about the bullying of the pew sitters? The nobodies? In that world, Todd is closer to the inner ring than a nobody pew sitter. I just see their view of the caste coming through even when they are victims of the inner ring, themselves.

    This is their potential “Jesus” moment to understand what it is like to be treated that way NO. Matter. Who. You. Are. I hope Trueman does not miss that completely.

  289. Deb wrote:

    My frustration with those at Mortification of Spin is that in one segment they are endorsing Mark Dever’s 9Marks, and then they make these bold statements about the theological movement Dever helped build.

    Yes, the primary contributors at Mortification of Spin are Calvinist at heart, so they can’t dish the whole movement.

    Deb wrote:

    Here’s how I view the New Calvinists. If they are in the center of God’s will, then they will prevail. However, if they are not, then it’s just a matter of time before the walls they have built come crashing down upon them.

    And that view, of course, is Scriptural: “If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them” (Acts 5). John Calvin was a human (I think).

  290. Stan wrote:

    @ Max:

    Calvinism is sold as the lost wisdom of the romantic past. Watch them follow the lead of their Puritan forebears and go Unitarian when Calvinism doesn’t have all the answers neither.

    Between those two came the witch trials. Let’s all hope they skip those.

  291. @ Nancy2:
    Whoa …. Don’t know what happened there!

    Women’s crafty classes in church??? Well, at least my church does something worthwhile. The church sponsors a guy who does mission work in Africa. Occasionally, our ladies bring their equipment and supplies to the fellowship hall and make pillowslip dresses for the girls at an orphanage the missionary visits, or whatever community the missionary chooses. (Don’t know how to sew? Pillow slip dresses are very simple, and we’ll teach ya!). They also do drives for various other things ( everything from panties to medical supplies) to ship to Africa, as well as things for needy (food, socks, shoes, winter coats). children in our own area.

    Jeeeesh! If you are going to restrict women’s activities to girly girl crafts, at least find a way do something that will help someone else!

  292. Max wrote:

    And that view, of course, is Scriptural: “If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them” (Acts 5).

    In the universe of religious instruction, there are essentially three categories: (1) The Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, (2) traditions and teachings of men, and (3) doctrines of devils. Religious debates center around various interpretations of what “Truth” is, but the history of organized religion shows that teachings of men and doctrines of devils have won that argument many times. But God …

    As the children’s song goes “Be careful little eyes what you see … Be careful little ears what you hear.”

  293. Deb wrote:

    And now the donor-base public is beginning to see something of the sharp practices that operate out of sight, as with the backroom bullying and browbeating of Todd Pruitt — a minister of the gospel, for pity’s sake!

    I get that Todd is Carl's friend. But this is what bothers me about this, Carl moans about Todd Pruitt a "minister of the gospel" (minister of the gospel makes him special?) being bullied and browbeat. Where is the concern for the everyday church goer? If the bully boys have no qualms about bullying a "minister of the gospel" doesn't Carl realize how much worse the everyday church goer is being bullied? Doesn't Todd Pruitt understand this either? Why can't they now see the horrible outcome of hierarchical structures? They are dense.

  294. Nancy2 wrote:

    Jeeeesh! If you are going to restrict women’s activities to girly girl crafts, at least find a way do something that will help someone else!

    My Aunt Yvonne lived into her ninety’s and crocheted beautiful colorful hats for children who were taking chemo and had lost their hair. Her sodality at Church did a number of things for infant layettes for indigent mothers and made items of clothing for children in need. Auntie Yvonne’s hands were always working, either her needles or her beads. Those hats made me smile, and I can imagine the children loved them too. So much love, my Aunt Yvonne, so much love. 🙂

  295. Deb wrote:

    My frustration with those at Mortification of Spin is that in one segment they are endorsing Mark Dever’s 9Marks, and then they make these bold statements about the theological movement Dever helped build.

    And this too. It seems like they are more upset about the treatment they are receiving (join the crowd I say here) than anything else. Are they listening and responding to questions about Mahaney, or thinking through the Dever (ed.) connection?

    They are being treated the same way they have treated others. Hmm.

  296. Christiane wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Jeeeesh! If you are going to restrict women’s activities to girly girl crafts, at least find a way do something that will help someone else!

    My Aunt Yvonne lived into her ninety’s and crocheted beautiful colorful hats for children who were taking chemo and had lost their hair. Her sodality at Church did a number of things for infant layettes for indigent mothers and made items of clothing for children in need. Auntie Yvonne’s hands were always working, either her needles or her beads. Those hats made me smile, and I can imagine the children loved them too. So much love, my Aunt Yvonne, so much love. 🙂

    Meet my beloved Aunt Yvonne of blessed memory:
    http://stonewallsgarden.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-story-of-yvonnes-red-salvia.html

  297. Lydia wrote:

    @ Deb: Yeah, I predicted the demise of the Megas 15 years ago, too. Hee Hee. Is Trueman aware of the “comeback kid” strategy? These people are constantly reinventing themselves and the institutions with no explanation of past behavior or changing doctrine. I am sad he is offended at the bullying of a minister of the Gospel but what about the bullying of the pew sitters? The nobodies? In that world, Todd is closer to the inner ring than a nobody pew sitter. I just see their view of the caste coming through even when they are victims of the inner ring, themselves. This is their potential “Jesus” moment to understand what it is like to be treated that way NO. Matter. Who. You. Are. I hope Trueman does not miss that completely.

    Ha! You and I think alike on this one. I had not read all the comments before I responded to Deb 🙂

  298. Robert wrote:

    Between those two came the witch trials. Let’s all hope they skip those.

    Well, they at least can’t burn people or string them up without dire consequences thanks to government intervention 😉

    They can inflict other troubles . . . look at Carl and Todd.

  299. @ Bridget:
    Double bingo! What about those pew sitter “survivors” from SGM who were writing online about the spiritual abuse at SGM when Mahaney was in the process of being exonerated as ‘fit for ministry’?

    I get the fact that most won’t get it or see it until it happens to them. But that is exactly what is wrong with most of Christendom especially those with Christian titles. I get “being naive”. Been there, done that. But at least come clean and stop promoting the caste system that makes it possible.

    My recommendation is to never make a living off Jesus. It often ends up being a trap.

  300. Nancy2 wrote:

    Women’s crafty classes in church??? Well, at least my church does something worthwhile.

    To be fair, I think the knitting at my church is actually given away to a charity. That’s a great thing for people who like that. They mentioned it during the little ‘time to talk about missions’ deal.

  301. Daisy wrote:

    I don’t think adults need other adults instructing them on how to manage or live out every matter in life, no matter how trivial.

    “But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true.” 1 John 2:27

  302. Bridget wrote:

    If the bully boys have no qualms about bullying a “minister of the gospel” doesn’t Carl realize how much worse the everyday church goer is being bullied? Doesn’t Todd Pruit understand this either? Why can’t they now see the horrible
    outcome of hierarchial structures? They are dense.

    Dense is a good word for it. Oblivious.

    In some ways, it is human to only notice things that touch us, so I can kind of understand if something has never been an issue for you you may just not see it. For instance, Aimee is ‘comp’ but she probably has a husband who is absolutely not a tyrant, so these evils don’t really touch her. I think she’s kind of waking up, the more crazy stuff she sees, though. (sometimes that leads to the no true Scotsman arguments.)

    But catch a clue.

  303. Law Prof wrote:

    “But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true.” 1 John 2:27

    I hear that the Holy Spirit is no longer emphasized in neo-Cal world. I suppose they cherry-pick from sacred Scripture much, but the above quote from Scripture must at least give them pause.

  304. Law Prof wrote:

    “But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true.” 1 John 2:27

    Whew! That won’t preach in New Calvinist ranks!

    When SBC’s “Baptist Faith and Message” was revised in 2000 (with Al Mohler on the revision team), long-held Baptist doctrines of “priesthood of the believer” and “soul competency” were diminished. If you can convince a people that every believer does not stand competent before God as a priest himself to interpret Scripture by the Holy Spirit within him, you can control him with your teaching.

  305. @ Estelle:
    This group is run by a cartoonist (male) and an artist (female) and is open to anyone regardless of gender or artistic ability.

  306. Max wrote:

    “But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true.” 1 John 2:27

    Whew! That won’t preach in New Calvinist ranks!

    When SBC’s “Baptist Faith and Message” was revised in 2000 (with Al Mohler on the revision team), long-held Baptist doctrines of “priesthood of the believer” and “soul competency” were diminished. If you can convince a people that every believer does not stand competent before God as a priest himself to interpret Scripture by the Holy Spirit within him, you can control him with your teaching.

    I think the concept of ‘moral conscience’ is under attack by the neo-Cal theology. I once asked a speaker who was a woman giving a talk on ‘male headship’ this question: ‘What happens if your husband asks you to do something that violates your conscience?”
    The room full of women erupted in loud discussion and got so out of hand that the minister who was present in the auditorium stepped in to help calm things down. I was a guest there with a friend who belonged to the Church, but I had touched a nerve, and the women of the Church had been already discussing that very point amongst themselves. (Presbyterian Church)

  307. Also, Truman remains naive if he thinks any of the “leaders” are going to admit they were wrong on ESS. (Personally, I think the acronym EFS is a step to make another argument)

    What they are doing is the typical response, “we have been misunderstood”. We all heard that one for years when we laid out the obvious result of their hard core determinism. We were confused and/or ignorant.

    SBTS is immersed in ESS and it spread throughout the SBC even in peculiar places. Most youngish pastors teaching it now don’t even realize there is another view. They did this without even realizing it had a special name. It was just presented as Trinitarian orthodoxy. Another reason I maintain SBC seminaries are indoctrination centers and not Academic….at all.

    Now, recognition there is even a name for it is changing…. but still….Trueman expects thousands of trained pastors to realize they were taught wrongly? Does he realize Grudem's ST was the Bible at most SBC seminaries?

    This is war. Be prepared to lose everything to fight. Believe me, others who took them on have lost a lot. You rarely hear about them because they were stomped into oblivion.

    Here is how it works….from 2011 around the time more and more were starting to question things…..

    http://sbcvoices.com/the-eternal-subordination-of-the-son-is-the-historic-doctrine-of-the-church/

    Read about how “confused and ignorant” those of us are who deny ESS as truth about the Trinity.

  308. @ Lydia:

    “This is war. Be prepared to lose everything to fight. Believe me, others who took them on have lost a lot. You rarely hear about them because they were stomped into oblivion.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    I’m very sad for them. Can they be found, and their stories told? One every month or so? A regular feature.

  309. Lydia wrote:

    Here is how it works….from 2011 around the time more and more were starting to question things…..

    Goodness!

    Why Is This Accusation Made?
    There can only be three reasons why this accusation would be made.
    First, there are those who are ignorant of historical theology.

    Having now read the arguments presented from the other side, Dave sounds like kind of a dunce for having this opinion.

    Also, this part? Classic projection.

    There is a third possibility to explain the fact that some would make this claim. They are advocating a position and are simply marshaling facts to support their egalitarian position without proper regard for the factual basis of the evidence.

  310. @ elastigirl:

    Oh, this goes back years. My experience with this is most people think it is either sinful to tell their negative story (they believe they are protecting Christianity from being maligned to the secular public) or ….they have decided to live with it and don’t want to bring it up because the cost too high. People can only take so much. It takes a special bent or passion (and financial protection) to take this stuff on in real terms. This is why I give victims/survivors a lot of leeway in how they deal with abuse.

    My question is why pew sitters don’t question and just go along with any concept of “leader” authority? That concept is so far from Christ as to be astonishing that we ever believed any variation of it. That is where I think the solution lands.

  311. @ Lydia:

    Lydia, every time I try to read comments over at SBC Voices I get sort of sick at how just rude and impolite and unkind they all are, knowing that many if not most of the men are Pastors. What childish, rude people they really are at heart.

  312. Christiane wrote:

    I think the concept of ‘moral conscience’ is under attack by the neo-Cal theology.

    It’s not just calvinista ideology. Calvary Chapel also teaches (and has always taught) that your ‘unfiltered’ conscience cannot be trusted for what’s ‘right’ and what’s ‘wrong’. It can only be informed as to what’s right by Scripture, and they’ve got all the duck-clobber-verses in a row to prove it.
    Back on a previous thread, Dr. Fundy make an astute observation; calvinism and arminianism are in reality kissin’ cousins. I see it that way too, the alleged ‘differences’ are purely cosmetic.

  313. @ Lea:
    I admit I have been interacting with Calvinists in the SBC too long. It is one reason I am so strident. See how it is presented in that OP? That is how any dissent was dealt with in that movement. Every single fallacy you can name is used to “win” an argument that should be a debate. That is not allowed.

    It does show, however, that if you can get a popular pastor water carrier blogger to boldly proclaim the position of the inner ring, many will go along. It’s about being liked, accepted by those close to the outer inner ring.

    The key to all this is not caring who likes you, accepts you….or not. Very hard for people to grasp. And impossible for people who rely on that world for their income.

  314. Lydia wrote:

    The key to all this is not caring who likes you, accepts you….or not.

    Yes. That’s certainly not a problem for me, as I’m a woman (thus already discounted and ignored) and I’ve left the Baptists entirely.

    But yes, people who make their living off this stuff have to be careful. And if they were just pastors and their parishioners were happy they would be ok mostly, instead of pastor + author + teacher + blogger + TGC/9MARX/Whatever. Because those extra places that give them incomes they don’t’ want to lose are where a few men really have power over them.

    Maybe they should choose for themselves who they are actually going to serve.

  315. @ Lea:
    Is it any wonder I just can’t go to church? In my case, I just don’t see how it honors Christ to do so. (Many pastors are entitlement bullies when NOT behind the pulpit) I saw horrible evil and deception in the mega movement… outside the SBC. The SBC Neo Cal movement is worse! They have institutional authoritarianism through doctrine and polity. A double whammy.

    I kept thinking of something strange my mom said to me in passing on her death bed before I saw all this. She said that I should consider the church as a mission field. I did not understand it at the time. I do now. She knew. I think It’s why she spent most of her ministry in the inner city where the real need is and no one had the time or resources for these control issues. Especially for women!

  316. Lydia wrote:

    This is war.

    Have you ever listened to Piper’s “Make War”? The short video clip is a good example of the Pied Piper’s appeal to young reformers. While it certainly contains some truth about Christian battles against the flesh, his eerie delivery makes my skin crawl. But, the YRR love it, I guess.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrY0h33coR4

  317. I know I’m late to the party on this one and maybe this has been covered by other commenters but this writer is a drama queen. Quotes like ” daily parenthood battles”, “surprisingly complex parenting dilemma”, and “extracurricular activities can be ethically complex” all clue me into the fact this writer worries way too much about the minutia of life.

  318. I have to admit, in the cold light of morning, that I really was unnerved by what happened at the House of Driscoll yesterday. Maybe I’m overthinking this, but I have found myself not only getting a GoPro, but also looking at the state law of trespass, the requirements for a bail bond and wondering if I shouldn’t have a criminal attorney on retainer.

    For sure I’m going with the GoPro (it’s already on order). The rest, we’ll see. But I do think there’s been an escalation.

  319. @ Max:

    Oh. My. Word.

    Piper: “There is a mean violent streak to the Christian life” (against ourselves)

    This is the flowery verbosity of Puritanism. Sin sniff yourself into oblivion so you are good for nothing else. Spend your time immersed in understanding and recognizing your total depravity.

    How about– get off your mat and walk? Oh no. That won’t do.

    You know what is chilling about this? One spends their time contemplating the sinfulness and depravity of cancer (Don’t waste your cancer!) as a result of sin…… instead of seeking a cure and care that screams love. Apply that to other issues. It is why I despise their doctrine. It wants us to stay immersed in contemplating evil.

  320. mirele wrote:

    I have to admit, in the cold light of morning, that I really was unnerved by what happened at the House of Driscoll yesterday. Maybe I’m overthinking this, but I have found myself not only getting a GoPro, but also looking at the state law of trespass, the requirements for a bail bond and wondering if I shouldn’t have a criminal attorney on retainer.

    I don’t know if you need an attorney on retainer, but it might not be a bad idea to pick one out. Or have a quick consultation regarding the law here just to make sure you don’t step over the line.

    I suspect that they just freaked out that there were two of you, but didn’t you have a visitor a month or so ago? Try another visitor and see what happens…

    Or maybe you should go with what I do on blind dates, and make sure someone knows where you are and is looking for you when you are supposed to be home.

  321. Lydia wrote:

    Here is how it works….from 2011 around the time more and more were starting to question things…..

    http://sbcvoices.com/the-eternal-subordination-of-the-son-is-the-historic-doctrine-of-the-church/

    Read about how “confused and ignorant” those of us are who deny ESS as truth about the Trinity.

    Oh yeah, I remember that post by Miller. I tried to respond with quotes from one of the Church Fathers, St. Ambrose, and David wasn’t buying him. So, in the end, I wrote this comment:

    “DAVID, you may want to take a look at St. Ambrose, who was arguing a case against the Arians and who, in process, makes it clear that Christ is not a ‘sub’ anything in the Holy Trinity. You may disagree with Ambrose, no problem. But he is considered orthodox, and you might even find something in his writing to support your own thinking on this matter. Who knows? It’s Arian tail Ambrose is kicking, so you can read him without too much hesitation. ”

    Didn’t work. Nothing got through to him. But I tried, so I am at peace about it. I am wondering where he is now with his ESS theology? I don’t see him standing alone against the wind, so maybe he’s changed his opinion. I’ll know if he starts quoting Ambrose. 🙂

  322. Reader wrote:

    Bear in mind, this is the same mother who wrote this:

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2014/august/real-benefits-of-spanish-immersion-elementary-school.html

    Maybe her motives are great — she sincerely seems to believe they are — but putting the two together, it sounds like she has some pretty tough standards.

    True, maybe her methods don’t translate into print well, but…

    Our daughter doesn’t know it yet – but we are not sending her there primarily to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic, or even to learn another language. We are sending her there to experience life as the other, and to learn the compassion that comes from being the one not understood.

    It’s tough when the “not being understood” part is coming from the parent.
    Seems like she is a bit impatient at having her children achieve maturity. Isn’t childhood supposed to come first?

  323. Christiane wrote:

    I think this ‘split-personality’ reveals discomfort with the Dever program’s excesses ….. all that control stuff sounds good until it gets in the hands of them what use it to hurt people.

    Yes. I do not think, though, that the core problem with 9Marks is its control-freakery. I think that is a result of their theology being centered on the LocalChurch rather than on Jesus, the Lord of the Church. Gospel-centered sounds so pious, but Christians should be centered on the risen Christ rather than centered on the Gospel. The Gospel is a proclamation, but the Christian life is a walk modeled on the risen Christ. One charitable read on this is that they are mistaken about their elevation of the LocalChurch above all. One uncharitable read is that they emphasize the LocalChurch because that is what they can control for their benefit.

    Trueman is a churchman in the OPC. It is understandable why he would be sympathetic to an emphasis on the church. I think it takes a while to understand the control-freakery aspects of 9Marks’ emphasis if one is pre-disposed to highly value the institutional church.

  324. Lydia wrote:

    Spend your time immersed in understanding and recognizing your total depravity … It is why I despise their doctrine.

    Yep, focus on being depraved and you will miss freedom in Christ. Nothing about being transformed in reformed teaching. Gloom and doom may come, but don’t go looking for it!

  325. Lydia wrote:

    You know what is chilling about this? One spends their time contemplating the sinfulness and depravity of cancer (Don’t waste your cancer!) as a result of sin…… instead of seeking a cure and care that screams love. Apply that to other issues. It is why I despise their doctrine. It wants us to stay immersed in contemplating evil.

    It sounds like they are stuck on “Oh, wretched man that I am” and haven’t gotten to “Thanks be to God!”.

  326. siteseer wrote:

    There was what seemed like an obvious choice: a neighborhood school with an award-winning Montessori program 100 yards from our front door. But that’s not what we picked. We drive our kids half way across town, to the school where all the instruction is done in Spanish.

    [snip]

    Our 1st-grader bemoans that the classes are hard, and she doesn’t always know exactly what the teacher is saying.

    Yes, you should definitely send your small children to be educated in a place where they do not have a clue what the teacher is saying. That’s a great idea /s

  327. This would be hilarious if it wasn’t so terrifying. This is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ this is the Gospel of Fear and Control.

  328. Lea wrote:

    Yes, you should definitely send your small children to be educated in a place where they do not have a clue what the teacher is saying. That’s a great idea /s

    It’s like denying children a chance to be evaluated by Child Study Team who really NEED that service …. the way one special education teacher friend described what goes on with some of these mis-placed children would be like if you and I were set in the cockpit of a 747 and told to fly the plane.

    Learning should not be a dreaded punishment. It should be challenging, but in a GOOD way, a healthy way. Then, they at least have a chance to thrive. It’s all about giving them that chance to succeed.

  329. @ Christiane:
    Christians, there is a reason he framed the post from a “historical” perspective. It descends into, “my experts are better than your experts”.

    i do think you nailed it (I read this in 2011 but am usually moderated out so don’t always bother) in comments when you focused on the word, “eternal” in subordination….. from history. Where is it aside from Arians?

    Most of us agree that Christ gave up His glory and humbled Himself to come as a lowly nobody. (Phil 2) The Incarnation. Where is eternal subordination eternity past (Genesis as they claim) and in eternity as they claim the scripture teaches?

    I am even uncomfortable with strict functions within the Trinity. When I was researching this, I came across the persons of the Trinity being referred to in scripture as doing some of the same things.

    They take the incarnation as if ithe “status” applies eternity past and future. They play a lot of word games to get there. And conveniently leave out the Holy Spirit.

    But most importantly, we see from the OP, the real concern is egalitarianism.

  330. Robert wrote:

    It sounds like they are stuck on “Oh, wretched man that I am” and haven’t gotten to “Thanks be to God!”.

    Yes, that’s it. And they certainly haven’t gotten to the part of that passage that says “through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Romans 7). A YRR pastor in my area encourages his followers to look for a way to suffer for God, rather than teaching them to walk in victory. This stuff gets stranger by the day.

  331. Robert wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    You know what is chilling about this? One spends their time contemplating the sinfulness and depravity of cancer (Don’t waste your cancer!) as a result of sin…… instead of seeking a cure and care that screams love. Apply that to other issues. It is why I despise their doctrine. It wants us to stay immersed in contemplating evil.
    It sounds like they are stuck on “Oh, wretched man that I am” and haven’t gotten to “Thanks be to God!”.

    Yes. It’s a great way to control people.

  332. @ okrapod:
    Yes, this is true. But my priest told me that AFTER having considered what the Church teaches, and AFTER considering the realistic details of my situation, and AFTER sincere prayer;
    THEN, I am alone with my conscience and the Good Lord, and I am to make my decision knowing that I am answerable only to Him.

    OKRAPOD,
    I appreciate you sharing that link. And yes, ‘conscience’ that is uninformed can be mistaken. But the truth is that from childhood, Christian formation asks us to EXAMINE our consciences according to God’s laws, and to go into confession knowing that if we have WILLINGLY done that which we know to be wrong, or if we WILLINGLY have place ourselves in temptation, we must make confession and make resolution to avoid those pitfalls in future.

    What I see lacking when people examine Catholicism, is that they cannot comprehend the level of Christian formation in the Church which strengthens a person in their ability to apply their moral conscience to their decisions and their actions. I don’t envy anyone trying to come in to the Church not knowing the depth of that training which we receive from childhood. I’m sure there is SOMETHING that corresponds in the Protestant Churches, yes. But when you see a Catholic mention ‘moral conscience’ as guide, it will be as they have understood it from their perspective of many years of Christian formation in moral decision-making using their God-given conscience.

  333. Gram3 wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    Gospel-centered sounds so pious, but Christians should be centered on the risen Christ rather than centered on the Gospel. The Gospel is a proclamation, but the Christian life is a walk modeled on the risen Christ.

    Yes! I wish I could articulate this as well.

  334. Lea wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Here is how it works….from 2011 around the time more and more were starting to question things…..
    Goodness!
    Why Is This Accusation Made?
    There can only be three reasons why this accusation would be made.
    First, there are those who are ignorant of historical theology.
    Having now read the arguments presented from the other side, Dave sounds like kind of a dunce for having this opinion.
    Also, this part? Classic projection.
    There is a third possibility to explain the fact that some would make this claim. They are advocating a position and are simply marshaling facts to support their egalitarian position without proper regard for the factual basis of the evidence.

    This is what happens when Grudem is your go to theologian.

    “This truth about the Trinity has sometimes been summarized in the phrase “ontological equality but economic subordination,” where the word ontological means “being.” Another way of expressing this more simply would be to say “equal in being but subordinate in role.” Both parts of this phrase are necessary to the true doctrine of the Trinity. If we do not have ontological equality, not all the persons are fully God. But if we do not have economic subordination, then there is no inherent difference in the way the three persons relate to one another, and consequently we do not have the three distinct persons existing as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for all eternity. For example, if the Son is not eternally subordinate to the Father in role, then the Father is not eternally Father” and the Son is not eternally “Son.” This would mean that the Trinity has not eternally existed. (pg 251).” Wayne Grudem, ST

  335. @ mirele:

    Are you on the church side of the street or across the street? Although it sounds like any side walk should be okay. Just not a sidewalk leading up to the door.

  336. Lea wrote:

    I suspect that they just freaked out that there were two of you, but didn’t you have a visitor a month or so ago? Try another visitor and see what happens…

    Driscoll may have known this particular visitor.

  337. Christiane wrote:

    I don’t envy anyone trying to come in to the Church not knowing the depth of that training which we receive from childhood

    Huh? I never heard of this in my childhood in the the Catholic Church. Where would one even hear this as a child in the CC?

  338. Christiane wrote:

    @ okrapod>
    What I see lacking when people examine Catholicism, is that they cannot comprehend the level of Christian formation in the Church which strengthens a person in their ability to apply their moral conscience to their decisions and their actions. I don’t envy anyone trying to come in to the Church not knowing the depth of that training which we receive from childhood. I’m sure there is SOMETHING that corresponds in the Protestant Churches, yes. But when you see a Catholic mention ‘moral conscience’ as guide, it will be as they have understood it from their perspective of many years of Christian formation in moral decision-making using their God-given conscience.

    I don’t think that training made much of a difference to a huge portion of the priests globally and their superiors who turned a blind eye for decades to heinous evil. It’s the same hypocrisy we see in Protestant circles. Why we continue to seek personal spiritual formation from such boggles my mind. In too many cases their true character is hidden from followers.

  339. @ Lea:
    I think they were just waiting for some action on their property to make an intimidating move. Ben parking in the parking lot could have been all they think they needed.

    The Megas used to take water and donuts to protestors after they called the media.

  340. @ siteseer:
    Why don’t they just send her to another country to be a missionary? There is a reason there are tons of ESL classes everywhere you look. Just about every community agency and even many churches here offer them. We have public schools desinated to this issue. It is a huge issue here.

  341. Lydia wrote:

    I did not understand it at the time. I do now. She knew. I think It’s why she spent most of her ministry in the inner city where the real need is and no one had the time or resources for these control issues. Especially for women!

    Your mom was on to something, and so are you with this comment.

    It might be a debatable point that some American Christians have cushy lives, by comparison to believers in other nations, where their (American Christian) greatest concern is with gender roles.

    In some nations, Christianity is outlawed or very limited, so churches have to go underground, or really watch themselves. In other nations, Christians are decapitated for being Christian.

    Wasn’t there something in the news about two weeks ago in Russia, about how Russian outlawed evangelization or something or that sort?

    Meanwhile, U.S. Christian groups are regularly publishing stuff like, “is it a sin for your six year old kid to drop out of soccer,” and “women should rinse sudsy, soapy drink glasses to the satisfaction of their husbands.”

  342. Gram3 wrote:

    The Gospel is a proclamation, but the Christian life is a walk modeled on the risen Christ.

    Amen!! Good words!

    At the end of the day, religious pursuit boils out to being an “ist” vs. an “ian.”

    Consider this:

    “ist” … one who holds certain principles, doctrines

    “ian” … one relating to, belonging to, or resembling

    That’s it! We’ve got too many ist’s in the church and not enough ian’s! Too many folks are adhering to some doctrinal belief system and not enough relating to Christ. Too many Baptists, Methodists, Calvinists, etc. and not enough Christians! If we allow religious belief and practice to become more important than resembling Christ, we might very well miss the whole thing.

    “The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch” (Acts 11:26)

    “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?” (Acts 26:28)

    Southern Baptists better get back to persuading lost folks to be ChristIANS, rather than CalvinISTS. An “ist” will follow teachings and traditions of men. An “ian” will follow the person of Christ. God needs to kill the “ist” within us before the “ian” can rise!

  343. @ mirele:

    I think it’s horrible that Driscoll & Co. are treating you as they are.

    I think I read elsewhere that his church wouldn’t let you and/or the other protester guy there into the church building during a service, even if you put down your picket sign? This is making them look even worse than they are, imo.

  344. Bridget wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    I don’t envy anyone trying to come in to the Church not knowing the depth of that training which we receive from childhood

    Huh? I never heard of this in my childhood in the the Catholic Church. Where would one even hear this as a child in the CC?

    Hi ‘Bridget,
    how were you prepared for first confession and first communion? At what age did you receive preparation for Confirmation in the faith?
    I’ve taught religion in Catholic schools, so I know the preparation that is involved. I don’t KNOW you, but I am certain, if you WERE brought up in the faith, you would have been thoroughly prepared for the reception of these sacraments. We don’t take these things lightly, no. Did you attend weekly classes when you were young? Were you graded in the work you did? Did you participate in service projects as a teenager?

    ?

    Your comment doesn’t make sense to me.

    Bridget, there is enough that is true about the Church to criticize, but I can’t fault the way the Church prepares people for the reception of the sacraments, whether they are children OR adults coming into the Church. The preparation is carefully done, yes. Sorry your personal experience was so pitifully inadequate.

  345. Lydia wrote:

    This is the flowery verbosity of Puritanism. Sin sniff yourself into oblivion so you are good for nothing else. Spend your time immersed in understanding and recognizing your total depravity.

    The rest of your post was spot on too, but this part bugs me (I mean, not what you wrote, but that some Christians practice this very thing you’re talking about.)

    Some of us (such as me!) grew up in very negative, critical families, where we were picked apart constantly. To this day, I struggle with fall out from that constant negativity.

    I already feel like a lowly worm in the dirt and have many family members who delight in nit picking me and pointing to every flaw they perceive in me.

    The last thing I need is a church, system of theology, or pastor doing the same thing to me (from a spiritual angle).

    Do the Christians who teach this “worm theology” never consider that some of us are ALREADY pretty humble and feel beaten down, and we could use the opposite message, (that God loves us, values us, and to tell us that despite our flaws, we’re basically okay)?

    I don’t find this stuff where they yell constantly about what a sinning sinner horrible sinner I am who God barely tolerates to be encouraging or helpful.

  346. Gram3 wrote:

    She is putting burdens on herself and her son which Jesus would never place on them.

    And THAT my friend, is the definition of religion.

  347. @ Daisy:
    I pray you are beginning to realize your infinite value as one of His should you choose to embrace it! I know that can sound like a corny platitude but I stake my very being on that truth. I try to remember to tell the kids every day because reading here brought home to me how important that truth is and how off track we can become.

  348. Daisy wrote:

    It might be a debatable point that some American Christians have cushy lives, by comparison to believers in other nations, where their (American Christian) greatest concern is with gender roles.

    It’s called “First World Problems”.

    Characteristic of a society that has gotten beyond life-or-death survival and climbed Maslow’s Heirarchy. However, the survival hardwiring is still there and you’ll still react to First World Problems (like inadequately-rinsed “sudsy soapy drink glasses”)as if they WERE a matter of life-or-death.

  349. Daisy wrote:

    Some of us (such as me!) grew up in very negative, critical families, where we were picked apart constantly. To this day, I struggle with fall out from that constant negativity.

    I already feel like a lowly worm in the dirt and have many family members who delight in nit picking me and pointing to every flaw they perceive in me.

    The last thing I need is a church, system of theology, or pastor doing the same thing to me (from a spiritual angle).

    Same with me, Daisy. Though with me it was ONE family member plus most all my peers.

  350. Lydia wrote:

    You know what is chilling about this? One spends their time contemplating the sinfulness and depravity of cancer (Don’t waste your cancer!) as a result of sin…… instead of seeking a cure and care that screams love. Apply that to other issues. It is why I despise their doctrine. It wants us to stay immersed in contemplating evil.

    Like all those surviving Puritan journals of Massachusetts Bay Colony.

    Filled with Morbidly Introspective Sin-Sniffing that consumed everything else.

  351. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    However, the survival hardwiring is still there and you’ll still react to First World Problems (like inadequately-rinsed “sudsy soapy drink glasses”)as if they WERE a matter of life-or-death.

    This is the give-away that the neo-Cal ‘male headship’ thing is unbalanced and serously inappropriate.
    For that kind of life and death ‘reaction’ to soap-bubble-trouble, the level of stress on the woman has to be excessive.
    Burn-out is forecast, yes.

  352. At the very root, it appears to me there are only two systemic theologies:

    system one sees the purpose of all God has done, ever will do, allows, etc to be show His power and glory.

    system two sees that root as being to show His love.

    I opt for system two.

  353. systematic, not systemic, but in the case of bad theology, maybe systemic, as like sepsis, is accurate 🙂

  354. Lea wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    There was what seemed like an obvious choice: a neighborhood school with an award-winning Montessori program 100 yards from our front door. But that’s not what we picked. We drive our kids half way across town, to the school where all the instruction is done in Spanish.
    [snip]
    Our 1st-grader bemoans that the classes are hard, and she doesn’t always know exactly what the teacher is saying.
    Yes, you should definitely send your small children to be educated in a place where they do not have a clue what the teacher is saying. That’s a great idea /s

    This is what every single child who moves to the US from a country that doesn’t speak English has to do. Most become fluent quite quickly. It’s hard at first, but immersion is a good way to learn a new language, especially for children. I think the soccer stuff is rather bizarre, but choosing to send your child to a foreign-language immersion school is a reasonable educational choice.

  355. Abi Miah wrote:

    This is what every single child who moves to the US from a country that doesn’t speak English has to do.

    Out of necessity, although I should note they have ESL classes and Spanish classes in many parts of the country where it is prevalent.

    And…It might be great for learning a language, but is it best for learning literally everything else?

    Maybe they should have taught her Spanish first.

  356. Abi Miah wrote:

    This is what every single child who moves to the US from a country that doesn’t speak English has to do. Most become fluent quite quickly. It’s hard at first, but immersion is a good way to learn a new language, especially for children.

    Before I retired, we were getting a number of children in that spoke only Spanish. We weren’t prepared. We had one liason English as a second language teacher among three schools, and she did the best she could sooooo, I went to the school library and borrowed a number of their books written in English on one page and in Spanish translation on the page across from it. When I left the library, I turned and said, ‘Please, let me know when someone else asks for these for their classroom, or is some of the children ask for them’ …. the librarian said, no one ever asks. At the end of term I returned the books and the librarian told me I was the only teacher who asked to use them. I advised her to let the teachers know about the resource, but she said she had done, with no response. Like I said, we weren’t prepared. And the children suffered.

    I think immersion works will with the proper ESL support AND if the child is very young. At four, I learnt French while staying with my memere and pepere for three months when my mother was in hospital and my father at sea. I’m told I speak it like a French-Canadian four-year old. 🙂 Go figure.

  357. Abi Miah wrote:

    This is what every single child who moves to the US from a country that doesn’t speak English has to do. Most become fluent quite quickly

    A friend’s brother moved to the U.S. from Iran. He was accepted to university for a bio-med major in Texas. He called me from California and asked how much Spanish I knew. I said some. He was frustrated to have to learn English AND Spanish in Texas. His head was swimming.

    He learned fluent English and Spanish, got admitted to medical school, and has become a doctor. (He’d fought in the Iran-Iraq war, a requirement of young men his age. He told me that he saw so much death and destruction on the battlefield that he vowed he would become a doctor and work to heal people and not hurt them.)

  358. A friend sent me a picture of someone wearing a t-shirt with:
    CALVINISM (large letters)
    #somelivesmatter

    I’m still trying to determine if that was a Calvinist wearing it with pride or a non-Calvinist digging at Calvinism.

  359. Ken F wrote:

    A friend sent me a picture of someone wearing a t-shirt with:
    CALVINISM (large letters)
    #somelivesmatter

    I’m still trying to determine if that was a Calvinist wearing it with pride or a non-Calvinist digging at Calvinism.

    KEN, it sounds like the latter 🙂

  360. Christiane wrote:

    KEN, it sounds like the latter 🙂

    That was my first thought. But I’ve seen so many articles on New-Calvinists sites that read more like they should be on The Onion that it’s making me think they actually find joy in the thought of countless souls burning for eternity because of a Gaawwd-da who selectively chose to save only some.

  361. Christiane wrote:

    Hi ‘Bridget,
    how were you prepared for first confession and first communion? At what age did you receive preparation for Confirmation in the faith?
    I’ve taught religion in Catholic schools, so I know the preparation that is involved. I don’t KNOW you, but I am certain, if you WERE brought up in the faith, you would have been thoroughly prepared for the reception of these sacraments. We don’t take these things lightly, no. Did you attend weekly classes when you were young? Were you graded in the work you did? Did you participate in service projects as a teenager?

    My husband grew up Catholic and went through all of this, I even have one of his old books. It was mainly rote stuff, he came out of it understanding little. It’s hard to teach things before someone is ready or has an interest.

  362. Ken F wrote:

    But I’ve seen so many articles on New-Calvinists sites that read more like they should be on The Onion that it’s making me think they actually find joy in the thought of countless souls burning for eternity because of a Gaawwd-da who selectively chose to save only some.

    If this is true, then they are more lost than the ones they would enjoy seeing suffering for all eternity. I think the ‘stealth’ thing is the darkest side of the neo-Cal pastors who don’t reveal their theology correctly at their interviews. And someday, I hope that SBC Churches will take the Deebs’ advice to have a contract that specifies that the pastors have been up front with the congregation about their theology, or if not, it would be grounds for dismissal. So predatory, that stealth thing. So very dark.

  363. Ken F wrote:

    A friend sent me a picture of someone wearing a t-shirt with:
    CALVINISM (large letters)
    #somelivesmatter
    I’m still trying to determine if that was a Calvinist wearing it with pride or a non-Calvinist digging at Calvinism.

    I thought it was a non-Calvinist wearing it, because of the group that sent me the picture on twitter (non-Calvinist/non-Fundie).

    I liked the t-shirt so much, and I couldn’t find out where to order one, that a woman on Facebook suggested that I create a custom t-shirt on Zazzle and buy it that way. So I did that yesterday.

  364. Christiane wrote:

    If this is true, then they are more lost than the ones they would enjoy seeing suffering for all eternity.

    Out of John Piper’s own e-pen: “So if I understand this passage, Paul is saying — and this is the key sentence — God endured for a season the unbelief and rebellion of those who reject him so that his wrath and power would be justly displayed in their punishment so that those who do believe will see the glory of his grace more fully in relation to the justice of his wrath.” – http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/if-god-is-so-happy-why-did-he-create-the-non-elect

    Does the part about “endured for a season” sound familiar?

  365. Velour wrote:

    I thought it was a non-Calvinist wearing it, because of the group that sent me the picture on twitter (non-Calvinist/non-Fundie).

    I think you are right. But I still wonder a bit…

  366. @ siteseer:
    Thanks for responding, but I was hopeful that Bridget would share her experiences in detail. The Church is very careful about the process of prep for the sacraments, so much so that a ‘convert’ will usually study for a year to three years before entry into the communion of the faithful. The earliest prep I have heard is an eight-month preparation.

    Children are taught to ‘examine their consciences’ prior to their first confession. Some sample questions (not rote) are:
    1) When I make choices, do I sometimes forget about what God wants me to do?
    2) Do I pray everyday? Do I pay attention at Mass?
    3) Do I try to see God in others?
    4) Do I listen to my parents and teachers or do I ignore them?
    5) Have I made fun of my brothers and sister or my classmates?
    6) Am I selfish at school? Or do I share what I have with others?
    7) When I am angry, do I say or do things to hurt whoever has hurt me?
    8) Do I say, “I’m sorry” to the person I have hurt?
    9) Do I play fair or do I ever cheat at school or games?
    10) Have I taken something that does not belong to me?
    11) Do I tell the whole truth? Or do I lie about things to not get in trouble?
    12) Am I jealous of what other people have or do I appreciate all that God has given me?
    13) Do I try to do my best in school?
    14) Do I thank God for the gifts and talents He has given me?

    of course, as maturity occurs, the depth and breadth of an examination of conscience changes accordingly in an age-appropriate way

    I know there is much ‘rote’ learning, but the system of ‘examination of conscience’ is not something that is done through ‘rote’ training . . . it is a guided process that begins simply for the youngest and increases in depth as a child grows up.

    My point is that ‘examination of conscience’ doesn’t appear to be something that is a part of Christian formation for those outside main line orthodox Churches. So the neo-Cal attack on the importance of ‘moral conscience’ would be more devastating if the faithful didn’t comprehend fully the importance of what it is they are being asked to lay aside as a personal moral guide.

  367. Abi Miah wrote:

    This is what every single child who moves to the US from a country that doesn’t speak English has to do. Most become fluent quite quickly. It’s hard at first, but immersion is a good way to learn a new language, especially for children. I think the soccer stuff is rather bizarre, but choosing to send your child to a foreign-language immersion school is a reasonable educational choice.

    I have friends who have their kids in Spanish immersion- and they love it!

    But it seems like the author of these articles keeps leaking out that she does what she does because she thinks hardship and suffering are an important part of childhood. That’s the part I find off.

  368. Ken F wrote:

    Does the part about “endured for a season” sound familiar?

    yes, sadly

    it is said by ‘pastors’ to abuse victims whose husbands have beaten them … this is the worst of many examples I have read about, I’m sure …. those poor women

  369. Lea wrote:

    Yes, you should definitely send your small children to be educated in a place where they do not have a clue what the teacher is saying. That’s a great idea /s

    Can’t wait until it’s time for her kids to learn how to drive, and cook!

  370. Max wrote:

    YRR pastor in my area encourages his followers to look for a way to suffer for God, rather than teaching them to walk in victory. This stuff gets stranger by the day.

    Reminds me of:

    “Spilling blood for their religion: Tiny Shi’ite Muslim boys whip themselves with sharp blades to mourn the death of Prophet Muhammad’s grandson”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3287819/Spilling-blood-religion-Tiny-Shi-ite-Muslim-boys-whip-sharp-blades-mourn-death-Prophet-Muhammad-s-grandson.html

    I also saw a guy on TV, (former Muslim now a Christian), who said that adult Muslim men do stuff like that too. There are photos on that link above who show (Muslim) adults participating in that ritual, too, not just boys.

  371. Josh wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    ESV Bible Is Now ‘Permanent,’ to Remain Unchanged in Future Editions Like KJV
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/esv-bible-is-now-permanent-to-remain-unchanged-in-future-editions-like-kjv-169413/
    Because the English Language Steering Committee voted unanimously that no changes will be made to the English language so the ESV folks can have their translation remain current for the duration of its copyright. /s
    I had to look twice to make sure I wasn’t reading an article at the Babylon Bee. Good grief!

    There might be a complementarian agenda afoot with the ESV:

    The New Stealth Translation: ESV
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/09/12/the-new-stealth-translation-esv/

  372. Max wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    Isn’t this the Bible of choice for Neo-Calvinists? ESV Bible …
    —————
    Yes. It is the holy grail of New Calvinism. The ESV Study Bible, with its Calvinist commentary, sits at the top of the pyramid of all Bibles ever produced! Only it contains truth expressed in a manner consistent with reformed theology. The ESV is produced by Crossway Publishers, the place to go for all things Calvinist.

    Okay, thank you. That’s what I thought.

    These Calvinists with the ESV remind me of Ind. Fund. Baptists and their KJVO (King James Version Onlyism).

  373. Daisy wrote:

    I also saw a guy on TV, (former Muslim now a Christian), who said that adult Muslim men do stuff like that too. There are photos on that link above who show (Muslim) adults participating in that ritual, too, not just boys.

    Sounds like he was exaggerating since most Muslim men don’t ever do such a thing and perhaps he didn’t qualify it by saying, “Oh there are some extreme examples in every religion and this is how it plays out.”

  374. Ken F wrote:

    A friend sent me a picture of someone wearing a t-shirt with:
    CALVINISM (large letters)
    #somelivesmatter
    I’m still trying to determine if that was a Calvinist wearing it with pride or a non-Calvinist digging at Calvinism.

    Horrible!

  375. Daisy wrote:

    These Calvinists with the ESV remind me of Ind. Fund. Baptists and their KJVO (King James Version Onlyism).

    Well, the ESV is new … but, the KJV is the version that the Apostles carried. ;^)

  376. @ Daisy:
    Daisy wrote:

    Reminds me of:
    “Spilling blood for their religion: Tiny Shi’ite Muslim boys whip themselves with sharp blades to mourn the death of Prophet Muhammad’s grandson”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3287819/Spilling-blood-religion-Tiny-Shi-ite-Muslim-boys-whip-sharp-blades-mourn-death-Prophet-Muhammad-s-grandson.html
    I also saw a guy on TV, (former Muslim now a Christian), who said that adult Muslim men do stuff like that too. There are photos on that link above who show (Muslim) adults participating in that ritual, too, not just boys.

    I was raised in a Muslim nation as the son of missionaries. This is lacking context. There is one day a year when Shi’ite Muslims do this. It is called Muharrum. And for children to do it is quite rare. Typically it is the me, and in a procession on that day. And often there is more show than actual blood drawn.

  377. Bridget wrote:

    they have changed a clobber verse or two and now set them in stone

    Yes, the 3:16 verse of their ‘Gender Gospel’ is now frozen as “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you. Genesis 3:16 ESV”

    This rendering follows the 1970s teachings of Susan Foh, the second founding mother of CBMW, with Dot Patterson:

    http://theaquilareport.com/genesis-316/

    Foh got divorced not long after CBMW began, and was purged from the group, but they still rely on her theories.

  378. Bridget wrote:

    Are you on the church side of the street or across the street? Although it sounds like any side walk should be okay. Just not a sidewalk leading up to the door.

    On the church side of the street, on the public sidewalk. I’ve had a discussion with the officer, the sidewalk is just fine. I should note that for security reasons, I park my car away from the church and walk over. I think I will be parking closer to an open business from now on (more steps but more visibility for the vehicle).

  379. Daisy wrote:

    I think it’s horrible that Driscoll & Co. are treating you as they are.

    I think I read elsewhere that his church wouldn’t let you and/or the other protester guy there into the church building during a service, even if you put down your picket sign? This is making them look even worse than they are, imo.

    You read correctly. Benjamin asked the cop, “If I give her [me] my sign, would I be allowed to go to church?” Answer: “No, that would be trespassing and you have been warned.” I told the Driscollite accompanying the officer to take back to Driscoll this from me: “You are acting like the Scientologists.”

    Ultimately, though, getting this information is helpful. I have had church members ask me to attend church. My response to any further invitations will be, “I’m sorry, Mark Driscoll has instructed the officer to arrest me if I come on his property.”

  380. Jerome wrote:

    Foh got divorced not long after CBMW began, and was purged from the group, but they still rely on her theories.

    I wouldn’t normally blame divorce on this stuff, but you just have to wonder.

    This translation and interpretation of that passage is so radically far from what it seems to be saying to me that it is just crazy that people buy in. I guess if it benefits them it doesn’t matter.

  381. mirele wrote:

    “I’m sorry, Mark Driscoll has instructed the officer to arrest me if I come on his property.”

    Put it on a sign 🙂 Driscoll’s kingdom is threatened (eye roll)

  382. Bridget wrote:

    Ken F wrote:
    A friend sent me a picture of someone wearing a t-shirt with:
    CALVINISM (large letters)
    #somelivesmatter
    I’m still trying to determine if that was a Calvinist wearing it with pride or a non-Calvinist digging at Calvinism.
    Horrible!

    I didn’t think it was horrible, I thought it was hysterically funny when I saw the picture of the t-shirt on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/UnlearningReligion/photos/a.1439690396293219.1073741828.1431601140435478/1749566551972267/?type=3&theater

    For those of us who have escaped these NeoCalvinist churches, they do talk in an incesstant and arrogant manner about how they are among God’s Elect. Yep, right from the pulpit.

    Dissent or being a Berean gets a person hit with “You aren’t one of us and are surely destined for Hell.”

    I like the t-shirt so much I designed one yesterday, same wording, on a women’s tshirt on Zazzle and ordered it for myself.

  383. Jerome wrote:

    Foh got divorced not long after CBMW began, and was purged from the group, but they still rely on her theories.

    I guess her husband must have done a lame job of ruling over her.

  384. @Christiane,
    I grew up in Southern Europe from German parents. I was the “lone heretic” (read protestant) both in school and girl guides. So I went to mass with them and learned to love the liturgy, since it is practically identical to Lutherans and Anglicans other than the “Hail Mary”s and prayers to the Saints.

    I also am familiar with the term “director of conscience”, which has been used for centuries, both in Roman Catholicism and Protestant Pietism since the 16th century. German Pietism has very heavily influenced German Protestantism, both in the Evangelical State Church and also the Free Evangelical Churches, along with the rest of Protestant denominations. I find it a pity that that practice seems to have disappeared in the US during the Puritan days. I also find no trace of the concept of “director of conscience” in current Calvinistic circles.

    In essence, a “director of conscience” was a mentor/advisor/counselor/Christian therapist. In German, the word for Christian counseling is “Seelsorge”, literally translated “soul care”. That translation pretty much sums everything up. I have always looked for good older women whom I could emulate and learn from. They did not know that they were fulfilling the role of “director of conscience” for me. The reason my kids turned out as good as they did, is because of the wonderful “directors of conscience” the Lord brought into my life when I needed them most.

  385. Ken F wrote:

    Just when you think Piper has no room left to bend to a new low: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/missions-and-masturbation

    While I don’t believe that flagellating one’s self over one’s self flagellation is healthy, and indeed, there are scientifically proven health benefits (e.g. reduced risk of prostate cancer) from regular, um, cleaning of the pipes, Piper’s perspective here seems to be the norm among the evangelicals whom I’ve heard speak on the topic. I’m not trying to give Piper a pass, I am simply trying to get at how this sits in the context of evangelicalism as a whole, beyond just Neo-Calvinism.

  386. Nancy2 wrote:

    Jerome wrote:
    Foh got divorced not long after CBMW began, and was purged from the group, but they still rely on her theories.
    I guess her husband must have done a lame job of ruling over her.

    That’s my friend, Nancy2. A pistol.

  387. @ Ken F’s wife:
    Thank you for sharing this. I have had some nuns in my life who helped me through difficult times, and I suppose they too were ‘spiritual advisors’. I thought of them as friends who helped me gain perspective and see my problems in a different light. Sometimes that can make all the difference. 🙂

  388. Ken F wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    If this is true, then they are more lost than the ones they would enjoy seeing suffering for all eternity.
    Out of John Piper’s own e-pen: “So if I understand this passage, Paul is saying — and this is the key sentence — God endured for a season the unbelief and rebellion of those who reject him so that his wrath and power would be justly displayed in their punishment so that those who do believe will see the glory of his grace more fully in relation to the justice of his wrath.” – http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/if-god-is-so-happy-why-did-he-create-the-non-elect
    Does the part about “endured for a season” sound familiar?

    As bad as the quote is, it’s even worse because Piper also teaches that people cannot choose to believe. They have to be chosen to believe.

    I think we need to insert evil laughs in all Piper quotes! Sheesh!

    The other really bad thing is we now know Pipers time definition for “season”. (Scared face)

  389. Christiane wrote:

    My point is that ‘examination of conscience’ doesn’t appear to be something that is a part of Christian formation for those outside main line orthodox Churches.

    I very much heard the phrase “examination of conscience.” It just was not in the Catholic church. It was in a non-denomintion church later in my life where I heard it. I was really a person that did this anyway from a young age.

    I was baptized, received communion, and confirmed in the Catholic church. I also attended a Catholic school through 5th grade. I attended classes for confirmation, but could not tell you now what I learned. It was pretty much memorization, to repeat to a priest, to make folks happy. I did it because this was what a good Catholic did. This was also over 40 years ago, so I have no idea what happens in today’s Catholic venues. However later, when I had been out of the Catholic church for awhile, I did purposefully turn to Christ and was baptized of my own free will. That is when I had a real sense of God with me.

  390. @ Ken F:

    Ken. No. I could not make it past a few paragraphs. I kept thinking of those creepy Piper tweets with the sexual innuendos and bizarre edited proof texts. The man needs help. Seriously.

  391. Velour wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    Ken F wrote:
    A friend sent me a picture of someone wearing a t-shirt with:
    CALVINISM (large letters)
    #somelivesmatter
    I’m still trying to determine if that was a Calvinist wearing it with pride or a non-Calvinist digging at Calvinism.
    Horrible!
    I didn’t think it was horrible, I thought it was hysterically funny when I saw the picture of the t-shirt on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/UnlearningReligion/photos/a.1439690396293219.1073741828.1431601140435478/1749566551972267/?type=3&theater
    For those of us who have escaped these NeoCalvinist churches, they do talk in an incesstant and arrogant manner about how they are among God’s Elect. Yep, right from the pulpit.
    Dissent or being a Berean gets a person hit with “You aren’t one of us and are surely destined for Hell.”
    I like the t-shirt so much I designed one yesterday, same wording, on a women’s tshirt on Zazzle and ordered it for myself.

    That’s fine.

    Personally, I believe that 98 percent of the population wouldn’t have a clue and would actually be offended by the saying. It’s just not for me. I spent 17 years in church that morphed into Calvinism and then exploded. I just don’t find it funny.

  392. Lydia wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    Ken. No. I could not make it past a few paragraphs. I kept thinking of those creepy Piper tweets with the sexual innuendos and bizarre edited proof texts. The man needs help. Seriously.

    I’m starting to think he has a real issue with sexual lust. So many of his teachings center around the issue.

  393. @ Chris:

    Oh my word. I read through McKnights post. Interesting how ESV guys put this in at the last minute. Not. Very typical. Nothing from that world is trustworthy anymore. It is an agenda.

  394. Bridget wrote:

    I’m starting to think he has a real issue with sexual lust. So many of his teachings center around the issue.

    Yes. Search for some of these key words on his website and you will get more articles then you would ever want to or have time to read. It’s a very big topic for him. What struck me today is how that particular article was on the front page of his site today.

  395. siteseer wrote:

    Abi Miah wrote:
    This is what every single child who moves to the US from a country that doesn’t speak English has to do. Most become fluent quite quickly. It’s hard at first, but immersion is a good way to learn a new language, especially for children. I think the soccer stuff is rather bizarre, but choosing to send your child to a foreign-language immersion school is a reasonable educational choice.
    I have friends who have their kids in Spanish immersion- and they love it!
    But it seems like the author of these articles keeps leaking out that she does what she does because she thinks hardship and suffering are an important part of childhood. That’s the part I find off.

    I agree. The YRR leader of our former church seemed focused on asking God for suffering, etc. Huh? Suffering comes, but I can think of no where in the Bible where anyone asks for it. That’s just weird. And there is a difference between allowing your child to work through some hard things and creating hard things for them. The soccer thing was really distorted imo.

  396. @ Bridget:
    I hear you. I have heard so many horror stories I lost count. I make fun because they take themselves so seriously and I don’t know a better communication device to deal with that whole absurd movement. It is a waste of time to discuss scripture with them. They are indoctrinated. They have been taught to despise reason and logic.

    I know people who have been badly deceived by them and burned. I also know some young former rabid YRR who are now atheists. I think we are just beginning to see the fallout.

  397. Velour wrote:

    Hi Folks,
    I just got a Facebook post with the name of the t-shirt company that sells those
    CALVINISM
    #somelivesmatter

    Now that’s funny!

  398. Lydia wrote:

    Interesting how ESV guys put this in at the last minute.

    So, is it desperation about the unmasking of ESS or just in-your-face arrogance to make a speculative interpretation into a translation? Just from a PR POV, I’m trying to understand how this helps them except with the Gospel Glitterati True Believers. The “permanent” thing is weird, too, because it is like saying “my mind is closed and I’ve got it all right.” That’s not scholarly. Have to admit this one surprised me because it is so blatant and over-the-top.

  399. Lydia wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    Ken. No. I could not make it past a few paragraphs. I kept thinking of those creepy Piper tweets with the sexual innuendos and bizarre edited proof texts. The man needs help. Seriously.

    You know, if Piper gets to the point where he’s really babbling incoherently, his fan boys will still think he’s brilliant.

  400. @ Gram3:

    I came to the conclusion they do such because they can. Who stops such things? They have a captive market because they influence the seminaries that influence churches.

  401. Daisy wrote:

    There might be a complementarian agenda afoot with the ESV:

    Good article. I like Scot’s perspective.

  402. mirele wrote:

    Ultimately, though, getting this information is helpful. I have had church members ask me to attend church. My response to any further invitations will be, “I’m sorry, Mark Driscoll has instructed the officer to arrest me if I come on his property.”

    Seems to me he’s shooting himself in the foot.

  403. Lydia wrote:

    I also know some young former rabid YRR who are now atheists. I think we are just beginning to see the fallout.

    When your religious walk hangs on the words of a mere man (John Calvin), rather than Christ, you will go crazy after a while.

  404. @ Bridget:

    Spend your time thinking about what you’re spiritually entitled to from women, and one’s thoughts may go in that direction. What gets me is the pomposity of writing as though people would actually be surprised he doesn’t approve of masturbation.

  405. @ Abi Miah:

    “I think the soccer stuff is rather bizarre, but choosing to send your child to a foreign-language immersion school is a reasonable educational choice.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    i agree. but to do so to make it hard for your child on purpose, on a home-made character-building quest for the child, is ludicrous.

    christians taking themselves and their parenting so *dadgum* seriously, to crazy proportions.

  406. Patriciamc wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Hi Folks,
    I just got a Facebook post with the name of the t-shirt company that sells those
    CALVINISM
    #somelivesmatter
    Now that’s funny!

    Isn’t it?

  407. Jerome wrote:

    Yes, the 3:16 verse of their ‘Gender Gospel’ is now frozen as “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you. Genesis 3:16 ESV”

    Calvary Chapel taught this nonsense long before the rise of the neo-cals, and long before there was an ESV translation.

  408. Bridget wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Bridget wrote:
    Ken F wrote:
    A friend sent me a picture of someone wearing a t-shirt with:
    CALVINISM (large letters)
    #somelivesmatter
    I’m still trying to determine if that was a Calvinist wearing it with pride or a non-Calvinist digging at Calvinism.
    Horrible!
    I didn’t think it was horrible, I thought it was hysterically funny when I saw the picture of the t-shirt on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/UnlearningReligion/photos/a.1439690396293219.1073741828.1431601140435478/1749566551972267/?type=3&theater
    For those of us who have escaped these NeoCalvinist churches, they do talk in an incesstant and arrogant manner about how they are among God’s Elect. Yep, right from the pulpit.
    Dissent or being a Berean gets a person hit with “You aren’t one of us and are surely destined for Hell.”
    I like the t-shirt so much I designed one yesterday, same wording, on a women’s tshirt on Zazzle and ordered it for myself.
    That’s fine.
    Personally, I believe that 98 percent of the population wouldn’t have a clue and would actually be offended by the saying. It’s just not for me. I spent 17 years in church that morphed into Calvinism and then exploded. I just don’t find it funny.

    I can appreciate your point of view.

    My ex-pastor & elders were NeoCalvinists. I found them insufferable. My ex-pastor made a fool of himself and would talk from the pulpit about being among God’s Elect, when the end times came and the war that Jesus would give him a horse to do battle on behalf of Jesus, and my pastor’s name (Clifford) would be perhaps on a sash.

    Big eye roll on my part from where I sat.

    I would think, “A guy like you who screams at the saints, lies about them, excommunicates them…you think Jesus would trust you with a horse? Jesus wouldn’t trust you with the manure in the horses’ stable.”

    Meetings with the pastors/elders ended with their threats…that you couldn’t possibly be among The Elect.

    The guy, it turns out, has a fake Ph.D. from a diploma mill and another fake degree from the same place.

    I just look at this tshirt…and say: touche.

  409. @ Josh:

    “Piper’s perspective here seems to be the norm among the evangelicals whom I’ve heard speak on the topic. I’m not trying to give Piper a pass, I am simply trying to get at how this sits in the context of evangelicalism as a whole, beyond just Neo-Calvinism.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    I expect the evangelicals you’ve heard speak on the topic were simply repeating what they all heard — & all from the same source.

  410. siteseer wrote:

    @ Ken F:

    Piper always seems to be unburdening himself in these oddball articles.

    I think he’s masturbating with words.
    At the very least, he’s madly in love with his own flowery voice.

  411. Muff Potter wrote:

    Jerome wrote:

    Yes, the 3:16 verse of their ‘Gender Gospel’ is now frozen as “Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you. Genesis 3:16 ESV”

    Calvary Chapel taught this nonsense long before the rise of the neo-cals, and long before there was an ESV translation.

    For the record, I have never trusted Calvary Chapel. Even though they dominated Christianese AM radio in my area. Calvary Chapel has always struck me as distilling down all the ways Christians can go sour.

  412. Patriciamc wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    Ken. No. I could not make it past a few paragraphs. I kept thinking of those creepy Piper tweets with the sexual innuendos and bizarre edited proof texts. The man needs help. Seriously.

    You know, if Piper gets to the point where he’s really babbling incoherently, his fan boys will still think he’s brilliant.

    Let’s try it and see —
    Anyone got Merlin Ambrosius on speed-dial?

  413. @ Christiane:
    My mom spent several months living in Switzerland in her early twenties and ten years later had fun teaching me a little bit of French. When I took French at high school, I had to unlearn some of the Swiss French pronunciation I had picked up from her! Like ‘Ern, deux, trois’ instead of ‘Ahn, deux, trois.’

  414. Christiane wrote:

    I hear that the Holy Spirit is no longer emphasized in neo-Cal world.

    You know, if one knows the Lord, has truly submitted to Him, they have the Holy Spirit. May not always follow what He urges, but they have Him. Sometimes when people don’t emphasize the Holy Spirit, it’s because they’re afraid of the excesses of the pentecostals, the crazies, the Kenneth Copelands and Eddie Longs of the world, but I’d argue they’re tossing the baby the way of the bathwater. They’re generally ok, but tend to be a little stiff and stilted. Maybe some of the neocalvinists fit this mold. Others don’t emphasize the Holy Spirit because they don’t have Him, all they have are a set of doctrines they vigorously defend, scriptures they memorize and gurus who receive their true worship, but they don’t know Jesus and don’t understand what it means to have the Holy Spirit, so they despise the whole works and stick with what they know: doctrines and gurus. Makes for a pretty dismal person with whom to be associated. Based on the fruits I’ve witnessed, probably a good number of neocalvinists fit into this category.

  415. mirele wrote:

    I think it’s quite possible at this point to conduct legal protests in front of The Trinity Church.

    Absolutely.

    It’s your First Amendment right to protest, subject to reasonable time, place, manner restrictions, i.e., you could be arrested for blocking the entrance, trespassing or harassing attendees, but not for protesting.

  416. Max wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    “But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true.” 1 John 2:27
    Whew! That won’t preach in New Calvinist ranks!

    You are correct, Max, clearly the Bible doesn’t “preach” in New Calvinist ranks.

  417. Lydia wrote:

    I also know some young former rabid YRR who are now atheists. I think we are just beginning to see the fallout.

    Ironically, they have their own form of ‘fundamentalism’ too and are delighted to convert others (proselytes) to atheism.

  418. Um, whatever happened to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”? This six-year-old would have recently started having to spend most of his waking hours being educated. When he gets done (just like you, mom, when your day’s work is done!) he wants some time to relax and enjoy doing things he likes to do. How in the world is this an issue?

    Oh, I get it. Quite likely mom, too, has been taught that it’s “sinful” to want to have any time to yourself. So many Christian women are told that they’re selfish if they don’t constantly put “God first, others second, self last.” So now her poor kid has to learn this too. Next stop? Burnout.

  419. Kristen Rosser wrote:

    Oh, I get it. Quite likely mom, too, has been taught that it’s “sinful” to want to have any time to yourself. So many Christian women are told that they’re selfish if they don’t constantly put “God first, others second, self last.” So now her poor kid has to learn this too. Next stop? Burnout.

    Because of the efforts of TWW and others, more and more human beings of both genders are being freed from this sick and twisted religion.

  420. Lydia wrote:

    I also know some young former rabid YRR who are now atheists.

    And are probably just as rabid for Atheism as they were rabid for Calvinism.

    Same personality, just flipped one-eighty from total blind devotion to total blind hatred.

  421. So done with these TGC, T4G, SGM/C, ACTS29, etc. etc. etc. types.
    They are brain dead, legalistic, ungracious, meanspirted, dolts…..an’ I dint even use a thesaurus.

  422. Veteran father and now grandfather. Forcing your kids to do something, unless it’s homework, or a genuine moral issue only foments bitterness toward you and ultimately toward God.
    Honestly, this is NOT rocket science.
    Made the mistakes, finally learned, asked for forgiveness.
    There IS A higher better road

  423. John wrote:

    I was raised in a Muslim nation as the son of missionaries. This is lacking context. There is one day a year when Shi’ite Muslims do this. It is called Muharrum. And for children to do it is quite rare. Typically it is the me, and in a procession on that day. And often there is more show than actual blood drawn.

    But you will always get One-Upmanship — some who will go “Can You Top This?” X-Treme to show everyone else how Devout and Islamic they are (i.e. More Than Thou).

  424. This mom is trying to use a hammer on a marshmallow.
    Let the kid be a kid as long as possible. Battering
    him into her mold leaves little room for God to mold
    his spirit.