The Harmful Misuse of Scripture Regarding Divorce Due to Abuse and Infidelity

"Today in Saudi, women are either at the mercy of their husbands or at the mercy of judges who tend to side with the husbands. The only circumstance that a woman can ask for a divorce or a 'khali' is when her husband is in total agreement with her or if she comes from a very powerful family who decide to back her up." Basmah bint Saud link

http://www.wadeburleson.org/2016/05/the-shame-game-vs-inner-transformation.html
link

This is the first day, since July 28 when Polly fell and fractured her hip, that I have had some time to think deeply about a post. I plan to share my thoughts on my experience with hospice, death and dying, and the funeral in the near future after I recover my strength. I am hoping to be able to catch up on communications as well as to post some reader submitted blogs in the coming few weeks as well. Please bear with me during this time of catch up. Thank you all for your kindness and prayers during this time. It was felt and appreciated. Special thanks go out to Deb for bearing the brunt of the blog burden as well.


We need the full counsel of Scripture, not just a verse or two.

I have been eager to write this post for quite awhile. Many years ago, when I was sorting through my faith crisis, I became aware that much of my study in the Scriptures was often limited to either a few verses at a time or focused on the story of one book in the Bible. Although there is nothing wrong with approaching Scripture in this manner, it can lead to proof texting which does not take into consideration the entire Biblical narrative. 

It was during this time that I picked up a chronological Bible (here is a link to one) and read through its entirety in about 2 months. This had a profound effect on my view of Scripture. It led me to taking a long view of the Bible. When confronted with various issues of the faith and the inevitable duel of the Scriptures (my verse is better than your verse), I would opt out and spend some time thinking through how this particular issue was dealt with throughout the millennia as covered in Scripture.

I am often asked why I don't lose my faith while dealing with the horrible response of some Christians when it comes to child sex abuse, domestic violence, etc. Due to my broad view of Scripture, it is an easy answer for me. When I take a look at the Bible as a whole, I find an excellent description of the world that I see around me and the need we all have of a Savior. The Bible is replete with examples of horrific and every day sins, not only on the part of those outside of the faith, but also for those within the faith. 

However, in that very Book there are examples of incredible courage, selflessness and understanding. Throughout these chronicles is the ever present and involved God who created His people and deeply loves them in spite of their sins. …for while they were sinners, Christ died for them. He promises an eventual end to the pain and sorrow of this world. 

The misapplication of Scripture in the area of divorce and abuse

I have become deeply concerned about the Scriptural rhetoric that is applied to divorce within the Christian community. I am of the opinion that just about every Christian believes that it is best not to divorce. Yet it seems that many of today's leaders tend to believe that most Christians take the idea of divorce lightly. These leaders tend to downplay the seriousness of abuse and infidelity within marriage and there appears to be movements afoot to discipline those who consider divorce even in horrible situations.

John Piper believes that a person should endure physical abuse for an evening before getting help. He also believes that the abused individual who divorces the perpetrator cannever remarry because that would be adultery! Piper's opinions on this matter has affected a number of the Piperettes. Here is a statement by Watermark Church (which supported The Village Church's initial discipline and response to Karen Hinckley).

Before we ask when/if remarriage after divorce is permissible, we must first ask if reconciliation is a viable option. Even in the most heartbreaking cases of sexual immorality, the most perplexing cases of abandonment and the most gut-wrenching cases of abuse, as long as the former spouse has not remarried or is not deceased, we believe that reconciliation is a viable option. While in a season where the possibility of reconciliation exists, we believe it best honors Jesus that one should remain single or be reconciled in marriage to the ex-spouse.

Some people at The Village Church expressed to Karen Hinckley that she could not get a divorce from her child pornography viewing pedophile husband because the book of Hosea in the Old Testament demonstrates that Hosea was faithful to his adulterous wife and she needed to do the same thing. This is a naive interpretation that can lead to painful *rules* being put in place by ignorant church leaders. I speak harshly because I have seen the long-term damage done to abused spouses.

Hosea

Here is a good summary of Hosea from Bible Gateway. Hosea is often used by church leaders to prevent someone from divorcing their spouse, even in cases of abuse and infidelity.

The prophet Hosea wrote it at approximately 715 B.C. It records the events from 753-715 B.C. including the fall of the Northern Kingdom in 722. The key personalities are Hosea, Gomer, and their children.

Its purpose was to illustrate the spiritual adultery of Israel and God’s boundless love for His sinful people. Hosea brings God’s message to the wicked Northern Kingdom.

During this time, they are active in oppressing the poor in slavery and worshipping idols. God, because of His grace, sent another opportunity for Israel to repent and turn to Him. Shortly thereafter, the Northern Kingdom went into permanent captivity.

•    In chapters 1-3, God gives Hosea instructions to marry an unfaithful woman and he obeys. His unfaithful wife Gomer leaves him and finds another man. Hosea is faithful; he finds her, redeems her and brings her back home to him. “Then I said to her, ‘You shall stay with me for many days. You shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man; so I will also be toward you” (3:3).

•    Chapters 4-14 Hosea describes how Israel has been unfaithful to God. God wants Israel to repent and turn from their wickedness. He wants to restore Israel however, they continue to disobey and follow their own ways, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children” (4:6).

Dr Teri Stovall leads women's programs at SWBTS and is in a position to influence the thinking of women in this area.

Teri Stovall wrote Adultery, Divorce, and The Believer. This website is the online home of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary’s Women’s Programs. Here is a bio on Teri Stovall.

Dean of Women's Programs and Associate Professor of Women's Ministries

Terri Stovall serves as the Dean of Women’s Programs as well as associate professor of Women’s Ministry in the Jack D. Terry School of Church and Family Ministry where she teaches in the area of women’s ministry at the graduate and doctoral level. Training women’s ministry leaders continues to be her writing and research focus

After receiving her Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and Marketing from Texas A&M Corpus Christi, Dr. Stovall served as Campus Evangelism Coordinator in Tyler, Texas which solidified her call to vocational ministry. She has since earned a Master of Arts in Religious Education. a Master of Divinity, and a PhD in Administration. Dr. Stovall co-authored the book Women Leading Women and is a contributing author in Teaching Ministry of The Church and The Christian Homemaker’s Handbook.

…In her role at Southwestern she is actively involved in mentoring female students at Southwestern and counts it a privilege for any opportunity to invest in their lives or be blessed by them.

The background to Stovall's post.

A woman approached Dr Stovall for assistance in holding her marriage together. Her husband had committed adultery, which resulted in an unplanned pregnancy.  She was deeply wounded, but she wanted to fight for her marriage. This post is important since young seminary students are being taught to think in this manner.

The following quotes in bold and italics are quoted directly from the post.

"A believer initiating divorce because of adultery paints a picture of God walking away from His faithless people."

 (Marriage) was created also to be a visible representation of the relationship Jesus has with the people of God. When a man and woman stand before God and enter into a covenant relationship, it teaches us about our relationship to God like none other.

I believe we can carry this *visible representation* gambit a bit too far. The marriage covenant is not the same thing as God's covenant with His people. God is perfect and fulfills His part of the covenant perfectly. However, He did not allow the people of Israel to escape punishment when they failed to uphold their end of the bargain. He sent His disobedient people into exile and they were forced into slavery in Egypt and in Babylon.They were in Egypt for approximately 200 years.

So, why do we assume that God intends for His people to stay married to an abuser or an adulterer when God Himself punished His people by such drastic measures?

Also, given the recent brouhaha over the issue of the subordination of Jesus to the Father within the Trinity, I think we need to be very careful about proclaiming that Christian marriages clearly paint a picture of the relationship of Jesus to the church. Marriage is between two fallible, sinful human beings. Whenever any member of the Trinity is involved, one part of the covenant is upheld by a perfect, wise, reasonable and loving being.

Marriage is not the same thing. Perhaps that is why I have never heard anyone say "Hey, you know Fred and Mildred? Well now I understand how Jesus relates to the church since they so clearly reflect the love Jesus has for the church!"

"Jesus says the reason Moses provided a way for divorce was “because of the hardness of your hearts."

Let's go back to the woman whose husband is a serial adulterer and assume that she eventually decides that she wants a divorce, which is permitted by Jesus. Would she be told that she is allowed to divorce her husband because "it is permitted due to the hardness of your heart"? Why is she the one getting stuck with the label of a hard heart? Isn't the one who has the hard heart the unfaithful husband? It is his sin that is causing the divorce, and the wife should not have to bear the brunt of his cheating and hard heart.

"Adultery provides a believing spouse the opportunity to show redeeming, unconditional love."

Once again, remember that God sent His unfaithful people into captivity. They were cast out of their beloved home and forced to live in difficult circumstances. Since we know that God is redeeming and faithful in such responses, why is it not a demonstration of love to cast the unfaithful husband out of the house to bear the consequences of his actions?

"What can be guaranteed is this: If she loved, forgave, kept arms of redemption open in the midst of the pain and violation, and did nothing that closed the door for restoration, then she will stand before the Lord without regret for the choice she made."

This statement is laying it on thick. Why should she feel regret if she chooses to divorce her adulterous husband? The author appears to be suggesting that divorce in this situation should lead the woman to feel remorse and contrition. In other words, she did something wrong by not remaining married.

It is perfectly reasonable for a wife who has been consistently hurt to feel relief when a divorce occurs. I believe that some of today's churches put undue burden on those who are being harmed in their abusive marriages.

"And God will heal her hurts because she is His child. And He will completely forgive where she may have fallen."

Why won't God heal her hurt if she divorces her husband? Will He only *completely* forgive if she doesn't divorce him? Does she only get a partial forgiveness if she divorces? And is she in need of forgiveness if her husband was clearly to blame?

"We are called to remain faithful in the midst of unfaithfulness in the same way God remains faithful to us when we are faithless."

Once again, God remained faithful over the millennia. Nonetheless, His faithfulness also included sending the unfaithful away from their homeland for generations. 

"We are called to remain bound to the covenant we made in the same way our covenants with God cannot be broken."

God promised His people if they obeyed him, He would send the rains so that they could grow crops. If they disobeyed Him, they would be punished. There is no question, upon viewing the Old Testament as a whole, that God's people consistently broke their covenants with Him. God does not call us to remain in a broken covenant in which the other party is abusive or an adulterer. One may choose to do so for a variety of reasons, but one is not forced to do so by Scriptural admonitions. 

The misuse of Scripture in the area of divorce and remarriage

Here is my bottom line. Way too many rules have been foisted on vulnerable and hurting people by the legalistic application of parts of Scripture. Some of these rules could lead to abuse and have serious, long-term ramifications for the health of a family.

We throw around words like 

  • covenant of marriage
  • submission
  • God's faithfulness
  • unconditional love
  • hardness of hearts

without carefully looking at what these mean in actual practice throughout the Bible. We need to get our Scriptural ducks in a row and look at the entire Scripture, not only the verses which back up our preferences. 

Here is a comment I left on Stovall's post. 

Screen Shot 2016-08-05 at 10.45.41 AM

Comments

The Harmful Misuse of Scripture Regarding Divorce Due to Abuse and Infidelity — 799 Comments

  1. Gram3 wrote:

    I can and I have on another thread or two. I have never been divorced, and it is quite possible that I have been married only once to only one man for some multiple of your age. In other words, a long time. It has nothing to do with “feelings” which is a cliche’d dismissal of the real issue.

    I really wish Christians would stop acting as though feelings aren’t important or do not matter.

    I got this all the time growing up. My Mom was not cool with me expressing anger, and the rest of my family taught me no other emotions are OK to have or show, either.

    Then, after my mother passed away, I was in deep grief, and I had several Christians tell me basically, ‘so what get over it, your feelings don’t matter, there are people out there who have life worse than you.’

    Some Christians can be very cruel at dismissing someone’s feelings.

    But the Gospels say things such as,

    From Mark 1:
    Then a leper came to Jesus, begging on his knees: “If You are willing, You can make me clean.” 41 Moved with compassion, Jesus reached out His hand and touched the man. “I am willing, He said, “Be clean.” 42 Immediately the leprosy left him,

    Matt 14:
    When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

    Matt 9.6
    When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.

    Luke 7:
    As He approached the town gate, He saw a dead man being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a sizeable crowd from the town was with her. 13 When the Lord saw her, He had compassion on her and said, “Do not weep.”
    ————–
    Sure looks to me as though Jesus valued and cared about people’s feelings.

  2. Daisy, you are right 100% about God caring for people’s feelings. You will find in certain camps (reformed comes to mind) that facts and theory and theology are all that matters, and you will even hear some say that “God doesn’t care one iota about your feelings”. Hogwash I say!

  3. Gram3 wrote:

    You obviously do not understand how life works. I do not say that to demean you at all, but to plead with you to wake up and look into the eyes of some children who have been witnesses to domestic abuse by their mother or father.

    Do they forfeit their childhood and probably an emotionally healthy future because of your interpretation of OT narrative?

    I have read testimonies by Christian women around the web who said they stayed married to their abusive Christian husbands for YEARS before finally divorcing.

    Some women, it was 5 yrs, some it was 10, 20, 30 or more.

    In all my time on the internet reading Christian forums and blogs, I don’t remember seeing too many testimonies of a Christian woman divorcing her spouse after days or weeks-

    Other than extreme cases (where I think it’s totally justifiable), such as the lady discussed on this blog who learned two weeks (or months?) into her marriage her husband was a pedo.

    But many Christian wives I see stay with their abusive spouse for many, many years before they finally call it quits.

    I think many Christian women take marriage very seriously, don’t end it lightly, and have been sort of brainwashed by this view that divorce is always wrong or shameful, so they stay longer in a bad marriage than they otherwise would have preferred or had it been healthy.

    I can’t believe someone would advocate that women stay in a marriage and let time drag by, just hoping God MIGHT “heal” the marriage, or reform the spouse.

  4. Gram3 wrote:

    You also cannot apply your interpretation of the point of OT narratives at the expense of other people just because you want to do that. That is how legalism creeps into the church. Is legalism better than liberalism? I think Jesus had a lot to say to legalists.

    This! A 100 times this! I tried saying this a time or two above, but you put it much better than I.

  5. Daisy wrote:

    It’s that kind of thing that makes me wonder if Christianity is worth it or is true, since so many of its adherents I run across do this sort of thing. (I do see some exceptions, like some of the good people who post on this blog, though).

    There are many wounded, spiteful little boys in men’s bodies, hateful to the core, full of self and willing to do absolutely anything to further their agendas, who are nonetheless first rate Scripture and doctrine memorizers and faithful church attenders. But their fruits give them away. Don’t assume these people are adherents to Christianity.

  6. Harley wrote:

    I am now 1 day post op. Still in extreme pain. The high powered dose of the pain killer makes me tense and edgy. I will have to go down to the lower dose. Right now I’m dopey feeling. It’s hard for me to make sense of the written words I see. I hope what I’m typing comes out sounding right. I am going back to bed now for awhile. Thanks for the prayers and thoughts.

    We are with you in spirit, Harley. I wish we could be there physically. I pray that the pain goes away soon and that the end result will be well worth it .

  7. Gram3 wrote:

    What’s frightening?!?!?!? How are they at risk of being abused if they are SEPARATED?? I explicitly said, “Separation? Absolutely!” And by the way, I’m not a Calvinist OR a neo-Calvinist.

    My father slapped my mother around; threw dishes, furniture and tools at her; and blamed everything that went wrong on her for 26 years. He went through “good spells” and “bad spells”. When she finally left, he stalked her. (She was in her car, he was angry about something silly, so he busted the car windshield with a metal fence post with her sitting in the car. Mom drove away with the windshield busted out.). He went to her work place and waited in the parking lot with a Smith and Wesson. Someone who knew the situation saw him and called the sheriff.
    I was a married adult. My brother was a teenager. My dad tried to blackmail and threaten my brother and me to harass mom into coming back. We all filed restraining orders against him. He threatened to burn my house down while we were sleeping. He punched my 17 year old brother in the face when my brother refused to take sides.
    And, Jonny Boy, I’m only scraping the surface of the story here. The only way that marriage would have been saved would be for one of them to be widowed.
    Put on your big boy pants, step out of your bubble, open your eyes, and take a look at the real world.

    My parents divorced. My dad grew up when he became involved with a woman for 4 years who gave back as good as she got. My dad is very respectful towards all of us now, but it took a fiery woman who had no qualms about throwing punches to make that happen.

  8. Lea wrote:

    This is silly, though. If you have to be separated for life for the safety of yourself and possibly your children? You are effectively divorced. This is mindless devotion to rules over logic.

    Okay. I have a true story about a couple who separated but never filed for divorce: My sil’s uncle and aunt.
    They were separated for more than 15 years, lived in different states, and never spoke to or saw one another. When the wife died, since they were still legally married, her husband was held liable for the enormous debt that she was in. He lost everything. … his home, his vehicles …….. and had to file bankruptcy.

  9. @ Nancy2:

    I will tell a true story somewhat different. An aunt of mine became separated when their only child was still a toddler. The alcoholic husband moved to another state and the woman raised the child under severe financial circumstances, working as a bookkeeper and trying to survive during the depression and the subsequent war. They almost starved to the extent that the child had to be hospitalized for rickets. For a while they were able to live with her parents and then they lived in the projects. The child was grown and gone when the father died and she was at last free to remarry. A relatively short time later she did marry a local widower and she then had a much better life. It was too late to furnish that sort of ‘better life’ for her son.

  10. okrapod wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    I will tell a true story somewhat different. An aunt of mine became separated when their only child was still a toddler. The alcoholic husband moved to another state and the woman raised the child under severe financial circumstances, working as a bookkeeper and trying to survive during the depression and the subsequent war. They almost starved to the extent that the child had to be hospitalized for rickets. For a while they were able to live with her parents and then they lived in the projects. The child was grown and gone when the father died and she was at last free to remarry. A relatively short time later she did marry a local widower and she then had a much better life. It was too late to furnish that sort of ‘better life’ for her son.

    Sad.

  11. @ Nancy2:

    Thanks, Nancy2, for candidly sharing your family’s story of domestic violence. I’m glad your mom escaped your dad.

    In my family we’ve also had a couple of dv marriages in different branches of the family.
    One elderly battery, used to getting away for battering for more than 60 years, also took to attacking other adults besides his wife — men and women. No one was safe. Not at any meal. No social event.

  12. How about another story. A family in a church where I was might be a success story-or not. Alcoholic and violent father, children, and a wife/mother who stayed and prayed. The whole town watched the disaster. It was hard to not notice when he took all her clothes out in the yard and burned them in a bon fire, you know. I do not know the details of the violence, but people said he tore up the situation with what appeared to be fits of anger and terrorized them all including the children. Time passed. She stayed. The children had problems upon problems. Nobody could do anything. And still she stayed and prayed. After the children were all grown and gone he got ‘gloriously saved’, in the local christianese lingo, and became active in the church until his death. The children never got themselves in a good position, and continued to have problem after problem. At the church folks were saying that it was all well and good that he finally got straightened out, but that it was too late for the children, and they wondered if he might not have got straightened out sooner if she had had enough backbone to save her kids from what they went through by leaving him.

  13. @ Velour:
    My mom and dad live a few hundred yards apart and get along well now. They run errands for each other and accompany each other to dr. visits and family events, etc. My mom finally grew a backbone and learned to stand up for herself. She is, by nature, a very soft spoken, shy, type-B person. I hope my brother and I are a happy medium between the two personalities of our parents.

  14. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Velour:
    My mom and dad live a few hundred yards apart and get along well now. They run errands for each other and accompany each other to dr. visits and family events, etc. My mom finally grew a backbone and learned to stand up for herself. She is, by nature, a very soft spoken, shy, type-B person. I hope my brother and I are a happy medium between the two personalities of our parents.

    Good.

    My sister and I are very strong women, and we were as girls too. I think it’s because our mother was taught to be a doormat in her family. My sister and I couldn’t abide by weak women. We just couldn’t stand it.

    Now I feel sorry for her. That what strength she did have was trained out of her. Not get angry. To be compliant, etc.

  15. Nancy2 wrote:

    Okay. I have a true story about a couple who separated but never filed for divorce: My sil’s uncle and aunt.

    Nancy I have a story about a friend that’s finally been released up top who didn’t divorce for a while, but it was because she believed it would be dangerous.

    Also now that I think about it, I think my grandmother divorced my grandfather because of abuse. Funny I never think about how personal this part is. Thing is, she didn’t care at all what people like Jonathan thought of it.

  16. okrapod wrote:

    At the church folks were saying that it was all well and good that he finally got straightened out, but that it was too late for the children, and they wondered if he might not have got straightened out sooner if she had had enough backbone to save her kids from what they went through by leaving him.

    I can understand that.
    My brother and I were not abused as children. My dad didn’t get really bad until after both of our grandfathers passed away – he knew both of them would jerk a knot in his tail. By then, I was in college, and my dad knew that I was too much like him. I have no doubt that my mom would have taken us and ran if my dad had abused us.

    For the record – the one time my dad hit my brother, my brother hit back – kneed him in the groin.
    When I was 26, my dad put his hands around my throat and told me that he ought to strangle me to death. I told him to just go ahead and do whatever he felt was right. He let go. He knew by the look in my eyes that I had some kind of ace up my sleeve. He’s never threatened me or my brother again.

  17. Lea wrote:

    Nancy I have a story about a friend that’s finally been released up top who didn’t divorce for a while, but it was because she believed it would be dangerous.
    Also now that I think about it, I think my grandmother divorced my grandfather because of abuse. Funny I never think about how personal this part is. Thing is, she didn’t care at all what people like Jonathan thought of it.

    I read the story.
    Jonathan ….. pooh, pooh. No one really knows what abuse is like until you’re in the trenches. When his wife threatens their kids, burns his clothes, beats his car with a fence post, breaks his glasses when she throws a pair of pliers at him, arms herself and stalks him ….. ……. yeah, then I might take him seriously.

  18. Black & White Bible, Black & Blue Wife—A Review
    http://www.missioalliance.org/black-white-bible-black-blue-wife-a-review/

    Written by Carolyn Custis James
    on July 26, 2016

    Snippets:
    ——
    Reading this book also requires a willingness to reconsider one’s view of marriage. This is no simple task because her story raises questions regarding deeply held beliefs about marriage roles, male headship, and female submission that many evangelical Christians consider sacred and nonnegotiable.

    Yet the “silent epidemic” of domestic abuse that concerns Tucker is so dangerous and life-threatening within Christian circles, and so easily concealed, we cannot afford to brush her off and refuse to listen.

    Christian leaders need to educate themselves and seek help from experts in addressing abuse situations.

    As Aimee Byrd describes, some of the most breathtakingly ignorant and dangerous statements in the book come from the lips (or pens) of well-respected Christian leaders—men who, instead of wisely offering safe-haven to abuse victims, make female submission both the problem and the solution, sending desperate women back into harms way to try harder.

    The tragic truth is that this dangerous pastoral counsel comes from the mouths of some of the most influential evangelical leaders.

  19. Off-topic announcement: Amazon has shipped my “Cinnamon Rolls Not Gender Roles” t-shirt to me. I saw it while there to see a Comp book for children, that somebody who defended it on Spiritual Sounding Board wanted us to look at. I note only read the excerpt, but Every.Single.Painful.Comp-Lies.Filled.Page. Girls-Play-With-Dolls-And-Teasets and Boys-Climb-Trees-And-Play-With-Balls.

    The ONLY good thing about my visit to Amazon was this t-shirt.

  20. Nancy2 wrote:

    burns his clothes,

    I have a different friend whose abusive ex also burned her clothes or destroyed them in some way. That seems pretty popular.

  21. Lea wrote:

    Jonathan wrote:
    Answer this- Did God continually pursue faithless Israel even though Israel broke the covenant?
    Answer this- Is an abusive husband god? Or is an abused wife meant to be God, pursuing her faithless, dangerous husband for all of eternity?
    Jonathan wrote:
    Also, an appeal to “logic” apart from Scripture is dangerous.
    How about an appeal to logic within scripture?

    Now we have the abused spouse as God pursuing the abusers salvation? Wherever do they come up with these things?

    One thing I always remind abused spouses is that Jesus Christ hung on the cross for her abuser. She does not have to. It is done. Finished. If the abuser does not do anything with that, it is his problem. Not hers or her children’s responsibility. She can pray while moving on. At least the children will have one courageous respectable parent.

  22. Daisy wrote:

    men who, instead of wisely offering safe-haven to abuse victims, make female submission both the problem and the solution, sending desperate women back into harms way to try harder.

    There was a video posted somewhere the other day by Allen wade (?) that talks about how if the first response to a woman sharing her story is negative it makes it likely that they will not share it again, or at least very difficult. This also ties in a bit to the stuff I’m reading by brene brown about shame and how it’s so important that responses be empathetic because bad responses just make things worse.

  23. Gram3 wrote:

    Jonathan wrote:
    But you can’t argue from Jeremiah, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, or Hosea that final and absolute divorce is the answer.
    And you cannot make a consistent argument from those texts that it is *not* the answer, either.

    I don’t think he has read Hebrew scholar, Instone-Brewer. :o)

    Jonathan is interpreting the OT with Western divorce on the brain.

  24. Lydia wrote:

    She can pray while moving on.

    Yes!!! That’s what I think. You can certainly hope and pray your husband gets better, but you can do it much easier from across town and divorced.

  25. Jonathan wrote:

    But you can’t argue this from the character of God, the intention of marriage, or from the Bible. You can simply say “no” based on your feelings. This is the same argumentation used by those who argue for homosexual relationships, based on the subjective rather than the objective truth of Scripture.

    It can be argued on the basis of the reality of human nature.

    It’s interesting, I was just watching a program about a couple who allowed their son to die of diabetes because they were convinced that God was obligated to heal their son through their prayers.

    It’s not really much different of a situation.

  26. Lea wrote:

    This also ties in a bit to the stuff I’m reading by brene brown about shame and how it’s so important that responses be empathetic because bad responses just make things worse.

    I can testify to that. I’ve become more cautious and leery about opening up and sharing stuff about myself in face to face / real world relationships.

    I was burned one too many times when I went to people for help (even Christians, some of whom are family) telling them I was lost and hurting without my mother (after she died).

    I did not, for the most part, get the empathy, encouragement, or compassion I thought I would get.

    I got shamed, scolded, shut down, brushed off, judged, criticized, or given unsolicited advice I had to learn the hard way not to be so open with people.

    (I didn’t just open up immediately to people I did not know, either. The people I opened up too seemed nice and kind enough.)

    I sometimes hear Christians on TV lamenting how church people are so fake, wear masks, etc, and beg all of us to “be real” when we go to church.

    Yeah, well, I tried being honest and real about my personal stuff at church with church people (or other Christians I know I.R.L.), and it got me kicked around.

  27. Lea wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    men who, instead of wisely offering safe-haven to abuse victims, make female submission both the problem and the solution, sending desperate women back into harms way to try harder.
    There was a video posted somewhere the other day by Allen wade (?) that talks about how if the first response to a woman sharing her story is negative it makes it likely that they will not share it again, or at least very difficult. This also ties in a bit to the stuff I’m reading by brene brown about shame and how it’s so important that responses be empathetic because bad responses just make things worse.

    I’m just wondering about his claims of having an undergraduate degree in Psychology and a Master’s in Counseling. Really? Where is the skill that comes from those majors, from going to a bona fide school, and doing bona fide work?

    He couldn’t even address the topics cogently.

    I’ve had more training than he’s had and more college classes in these topics. I can knock it out of the park.

  28. Lea wrote:

    Yes!!! That’s what I think. You can certainly hope and pray your husband gets better, but you can do it much easier from across town and divorced.

    That’s how I handle my verbally abusive big sister. I love her from a distance now.

  29. Lydia wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Jonathan wrote:
    But you can’t argue from Jeremiah, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, or Hosea that final and absolute divorce is the answer.
    And you cannot make a consistent argument from those texts that it is *not* the answer, either.
    I don’t think he has read Hebrew scholar, Instone-Brewer. :o)
    Jonathan is interpreting the OT with Western divorce on the brain.

    If he is so big on the OT, does he think that Mosaic Law is still in effect?

  30. And there’s Idaho. Where faith healing is still allowed and children die every day.
    Linda Martin is trying to change that. She saw numerous children in her extended family and in the religious *Christian* cult up there die because the parents denied them basic medical care for curable illnesses. Travesty. What religion is this?

  31. Nancy2 wrote:

    When his wife threatens their kids, burns his clothes, beats his car with a fence post, breaks his glasses when she throws a pair of pliers at him, arms herself and stalks him

    I don’t know if that would make a difference, honestly. I hope that does not happen to Jonathan or his sons because it does happen to a lot of men who are shamed and made to feel like failures on many counts. Many stay to protect their kids, knowing the courts may not do that. Who in the church will help them, even assuming they can overcome the shame? Not the Jonathans.

    The fact is that there are toxic “leaders” who turn a blind eye to these men *and* the Ruth Tuckers and Karen Hinckleys. And their children. Abusers do not present themselves as abusers, and they are experts at manipulating and making themselves look like innocents or, failing that, as repentant to the useful idiots who enable them.

    The church needs to be better than this.

  32. Daisy wrote:

    I can’t believe someone would advocate that women stay in a marriage and let time drag by, just hoping God MIGHT “heal” the marriage, or reform the spouse.

    Like Mary Vail’s mother

    http://www.clarionledger.com/story/news/2016/08/12/felix-vail-trial-day-five/88604212/

    By this time, the marriage had went south. According to her family, Mary was contemplating divorce, but at her mother’s urging, stayed to work things out. A couple of months later, Mary would be dead.

    Imagine how much regret her mother bore after that.

    Marriage is not an idol to sacrifice people to.

  33. Nancy2 wrote:

    If he is so big on the OT, does he think that Mosaic Law is still in effect?

    I think that the Jonathans are further down the rabbit hole than that. OT narrative is not prescriptive universal law. Prophecy–minor or major–is not prescriptive universal law. Genre, Jonathan. Genre.

  34. Velour wrote:

    And there’s Idaho. Where faith healing is still allowed and children die every day.
    Linda Martin is trying to change that. She saw numerous children in her extended family and in the religious *Christian* cult up there die because the parents denied them basic medical care for curable illnesses. Travesty. What religion is this?

    This has really happened in Idaho? Were those responsible prosecuted?

  35. Muff Potter wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    And there’s Idaho. Where faith healing is still allowed and children die every day.
    Linda Martin is trying to change that. She saw numerous children in her extended family and in the religious *Christian* cult up there die because the parents denied them basic medical care for curable illnesses. Travesty. What religion is this?
    This has really happened in Idaho? Were those responsible prosecuted?

    No, sadly Muff, they weren’t prosecuted. Because Idaho doesn’t have a law against it.
    And trying to get one passed is like pulling teeth.

    They’ve had survivors — one young woman in a wheelchair — testify before a legislature committee in Idaho advocating for a change in the Idaho law to protect children. That young woman’s parents didn’t get her medical care for a simple medical condition and she’s now in a wheelchair! She no longer talks to her folks and lives in one of the cities in Idaho.

    Linda Martin has a blog devoted to this. https://www.facebook.com/groups/silentvictims/

    Linda is also on Twitter.

  36. Gram3 wrote:

    OT narrative is not prescriptive universal law. Prophecy–minor or major–is not prescriptive universal law. Genre, Jonathan. Genre.

    Here’s a clobber verse just for you Gram3:
    “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
    — Hebrews 13:8 —
    So siddown and shaddap!

    (tongue in cheek Gram3, tongue in cheek!)

  37. Velour wrote:

    Because Idaho doesn’t have a law against it.
    And trying to get one passed is like pulling teeth.

    No surprise there. Idaho is home to a very conservative electorate who don’t take kindly to any ‘meddling’ in what is perceived as a kind of sacrosanct religious freedom.

  38. Velour wrote:

    And there’s Idaho. Where faith healing is still allowed and children die every day.
    Linda Martin is trying to change that. She saw numerous children in her extended family and in the religious *Christian* cult up there die because the parents denied them basic medical care for curable illnesses. Travesty. What religion is this?

    I see it as a parallel to this divorce issue because it’s superstition masquerading as faith, putting burdens on people to live by archaic customs, as though God cannot be known outside of those customs, and leaving a wake of suffering and victims which must be ignored.

  39. Muff Potter wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Because Idaho doesn’t have a law against it.
    And trying to get one passed is like pulling teeth.
    No surprise there. Idaho is home to a very conservative electorate who don’t take kindly to any ‘meddling’ in what is perceived as a kind of sacrosanct religious freedom.

    Correct, Muff.

    And parents can be arrested and prosecuted for violating a law that hasn’t been written and passed by the legislature, signed into law by the governor. Other states, including Oregon changed the religious exemption law regarding medical care for children — requiring it of parents no matter what their religion.

    Many of us have been tweeting and emailing the governor of Idaho. Hopefully he and others can make a change.

  40. siteseer wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    And there’s Idaho. Where faith healing is still allowed and children die every day.
    Linda Martin is trying to change that. She saw numerous children in her extended family and in the religious *Christian* cult up there die because the parents denied them basic medical care for curable illnesses. Travesty. What religion is this?
    I see it as a parallel to this divorce issue because it’s superstition masquerading as faith, putting burdens on people to live by archaic customs, as though God cannot be known outside of those customs, and leaving a wake of suffering and victims which must be ignored.

    Yes, those in favor of denying children medical care say that medicine is from the devil, etc.

    Apparently they missed the part that Luke was a doctor in the Bible. Sigh.

  41. Velour wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    men who, instead of wisely offering safe-haven to abuse victims, make female submission both the problem and the solution, sending desperate women back into harms way to try harder.
    There was a video posted somewhere the other day by Allen wade (?) that talks about how if the first response to a woman sharing her story is negative it makes it likely that they will not share it again, or at least very difficult. This also ties in a bit to the stuff I’m reading by brene brown about shame and how it’s so important that responses be empathetic because bad responses just make things worse.

    I’m just wondering about his claims of having an undergraduate degree in Psychology and a Master’s in Counseling. Really? Where is the skill that comes from those majors, from going to a bona fide school, and doing bona fide work?

    He couldn’t even address the topics cogently.

    I’ve had more training than he’s had and more college classes in these topics. I can knock it out of the park.

    I am saddened you simply resort to ad hominem attacks and categorically dismissing any of my positions on the matter. Furthermore, while I will absolutely not give you the schools I attended (bc I have seen how you treat others here), I can assure you I hold the credentials I claim. I have read WW for a while, but the groupthink mentality here sickens me. There is no room for actual discussion here, for any other position apart from your view is immediately attacked. Furthermore, it isn’t helpful when you try to attach labels to people, and I think you are frustrated in my case because I don’t follow the norm of people you usually crucify with your online, keyboard warrior rhetoric.

  42. Jonathan wrote:

    There is no room for actual discussion here, for any other position apart from your view is immediately attacked

    There are a lot of people who comment here. We do not all comment in the same vein, nor do we all resort to group think. There have been some thoughtful responses to your comments.

  43. Jonathan wrote:

    I am saddened you simply resort to ad hominem attacks and categorically dismissing any of my positions on the matter. Furthermore, while I will absolutely not give you the schools I attended (bc I have seen how you treat others here), I can assure you I hold the credentials I claim. I have read WW for a while, but the groupthink mentality here sickens me. There is no room for actual discussion here, for any other position apart from your view is immediately attacked. Furthermore, it isn’t helpful when you try to attach labels to people, and I think you are frustrated in my case because I don’t follow the norm of people you usually crucify with your online, keyboard warrior rhetoric.

    Bless your little heart, you are a hoot.

    You’ve spent hours not answering anybody’s questions, set up straw man arguments, and then
    it’s back to the same hours later.

    I don’t see any displays of maturity or scholarship that you’ve claimed, degrees in Psychology and Counseling, in your comments about this serious subject. Six years or more years of college/university education should show up in your posts.

  44. Jonathan wrote:

    you usually crucify with your online, keyboard warrior rhetoric.

    Cite please, speaking of ad hominen attacks?

    Would that be all of the people that I request prayer for around the world who post here when they’re going through hard times? The encouragement I give people? The humor? The requests for financial contributions to those among us who are hurting due to illness, family finances, abuse cases, etc.? The congratulations I give people for birthdays and anniversaries?

  45. Jonathan wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Jonathan wrote:

    I believe God CAN heal. No caveats necessary.

    God can heal. That doesn’t mean he always does. And that doesn’t mean you have a right to tell SOMEONE ELSE to stay in a dangerous situation because you believe god CAN heal that person.

    Sometimes he heals the abused person, by taking them away from the situation. We should care about them too.

    You are the one who needs to rethink your position. God can heal an abuser after they are no longer a danger to their spouse. God can heal the abused too, by removing the source of their pain.

    I’m not arguing that the abused must stay in the immediate situation. But you can’t argue that separation through divorce is always the answer. Separation? Absolutely! And God may not heal in the end after a lifetime of separation. But you can’t argue from Jeremiah, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, or Hosea that final and absolute divorce is the answer. If you are reading the text, and we claim to be Christians, then reconciliation must always be the end goal.

    Jumping into this conversation late, I would like to point out that separation with a view to reconciliation at a later date is not necessarily a consequence for the abuser. The abuser just has to be on best behavior and show an outward appearance of change and repentance and then, voila, the victim is back in the abuser’s coils. If the change was not genuine, then the victim is worse off than before.

    Divorce is a final, absolute ending of the marriage relationship, in the case of abuse, it is because the abuser has broken the marriage vows by not loving, honouring or cherishing the spouse. Divorce may be the only consequence that acts as a wake up call to the abuser that such behaviour is unacceptable. A truly repentant abuser will accept that their presence in the victim’s life is harmful and will set them free as the best way to show that. Healing of the abuser does not require the presence of the victim in the abuser’s life.

    For healing to take place, the maintaining cause must be removed. In the case a toxic relationship, the relationship needs to end. Maybe reconciliation will not happen in this life time.

  46. Jonathan wrote:

    I am saddened you simply resort to ad hominem attacks and categorically dismissing any of my positions on the matter. Furthermore, while I will absolutely not give you the schools I attended (bc I have seen how you treat others here), I can assure you I hold the credentials I claim.

    So, is your psychology degree in Christian psychology? Do they offer degrees in Biblical Psychology, too?

  47. Velour wrote:

    Many of us have been tweeting and emailing the governor of Idaho. Hopefully he and others can make a change.

    Keep up the emailing and tweet campaign. They need to know that withholding known and efficacious medical treatment for children is no more covered under ‘religious freedom’ than is FGM (female genital mutilation) for certain Muslim sects living here in the USA.

  48. Muff Potter wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Many of us have been tweeting and emailing the governor of Idaho. Hopefully he and others can make a change.
    Keep up the emailing and tweet campaign. They need to know that withholding known and efficacious medical treatment for children is no more covered under ‘religious freedom’ than is FGM (female genital mutilation) for certain Muslim sects living here in the USA.

    We will keep tweeting and emailing Gov. Butch Otter in Idaho. The legislative committee made a little headway. But not much.

    We’ll keep working and praying.

    Please pray, Muff, if you’d be so kind. Those poor tykes in that state whose parents refuse to get them medical care.

    One sick boy had adults actually get on top of him and beat him. Just sick.

  49. Christiane wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    It looks to me as though the Bible teaches the opposite from the Desiring God site: when and where you can, you should help other people who are hurting or in trouble.

    – That was sort of the main point behind Jesus’ Good Samaritan parable.

    Jesus did not say that you should just walk by the injured guy on the road because God might be using that dude’s injuries for some other eventual purpose we just cannot see yet.

    Piper’s version of ‘God’ was not revealed to us by Christ. Piper is giving us an alternate version of God, a ‘negative’, dark, and blurred. I think Piper is definitely unwell. Certainly he cannot is unable (or unwilling) to recognize the God that Our Lord Himself has revealed to us.

    I suspectthat JP makes it up as he goes along. Its that, or else he doesn;t believe in anything unless it comes out of his own mouth.

  50. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    Anyone here run into those who believe a remarried person should renounce their current marriage and return to their first spouse, regardless of whether that previous spouse was abusive/dangerous? Be back in an hour or so to explain further…

    I have, many years ago, & was too appalled to say anything. It was a TV preacher of some sort….

  51. Velour wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    I think his church has a website. I just don’t think he wants us researching it.
    You know, you’re probably right; not exactly like Jonathan presents himself as a paragon of virtue and integrity, guess I’d be surprised if he told the truth there. My neocal church of 70 had a website, and the pastor had a blog, as well as a number of members.
    Exactly.
    What kind of school did Jonathan go to? Accredited? Ranking? Perhaps his “BS Psychology” is semi-accurate starting with the “BS” [bull manure]. A Master’s? And coming away with NO knowledge of these subjects. I find that hard to believe.
    But then whom am I to question my ex-pastor’s Phony Degree (Ph.D.) from the diploma mill in Independence, Missouri.

    Additional note: My ex-pastor paid a whopping $299 for his Phony Degree from an unaccredited Bible College. He didn’t do eight years of work for a bona fide Ph.D. from an accredited university.

    The diploma mill’s ONLY “accrediting agency” was brought up on fraud
    They moved to Arkansas, as someone posted here yesterday, opened up shop under a new name and are back in business in Missouri.

    The two accrediting agencies recognized by the U.S. Department of Education don’t accredit diploma mills.

    The cat I had before these 2 spalpeens had ordination papers froma diploma mill. It started as a joke & turned into a lesson to question everything…..

  52. Law Prof wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    “Biblical counseling” has 3 basic solutions for all human problems:
    1. You are sinning: in which case repent!
    2. You’ve been sinned against: in which case forgive!
    3. “Pray”
    Ta-da! Problem solved!

    With some “Biblical counseling”, you should alter the second solution as follows:

    “You’ve been sinned against: in which case, realize that you, too, are a sinner, and that even if you’ve been beaten unconscious by your psychopathic spouse or you’ve been sexually brutalized by your youth pastor, you must acknowledge that at bottom you are no better than the predator who violated you, and that as a point of fact, unless you get over yourself already before your physical wounds have even healed and forgive the perp–as in allow them free reign to brutalize others (and you) in the future, you’re the one who’s really in the wrong, you brought it all on yourself, and you need to welcome the discipline, shunning and further traumatization by the pastoral team, who are only trying to “love you well”.

    I thought they were trying to “serve you?”

  53. Estelle wrote:

    Jumping into this conversation late, I would like to point out that separation with a view to reconciliation at a later date is not necessarily a consequence for the abuser. The abuser just has to be on best behavior and show an outward appearance of change and repentance and then, voila, the victim is back in the abuser’s coils. If the change was not genuine, then the victim is worse off than before.

    Thank you Estelle! Particularly since this cycle of abuse is well known…abusers commonly slip between times of abuse and times when they are on their best behavior.

  54. Lea wrote:

    Estelle wrote:
    Jumping into this conversation late, I would like to point out that separation with a view to reconciliation at a later date is not necessarily a consequence for the abuser. The abuser just has to be on best behavior and show an outward appearance of change and repentance and then, voila, the victim is back in the abuser’s coils. If the change was not genuine, then the victim is worse off than before.
    Thank you Estelle! Particularly since this cycle of abuse is well known…abusers commonly slip between times of abuse and times when they are on their best behavior.

    Also called The Honeymoon Phase. Begging, crying, “I’ll never do it again, etc.”

    When I was in college a young woman broke up with a man she was dating who was drop dead gorgeous on the surface and mean as a snake beneath it. A group of us girls were at a burger place when he pulled in. We had to hide her in the car. Luckily the parking lot was full and we were waiting for our order.

    As the situation escalated, his demands for her to ‘come back’ and her steadfast and polite refusals, he wouldn’t take ‘no’ for an answer. He did the unthinkable. He drove to Washington state and murdered HER mother, a school psychologist at home, stabbing her to death.

    He came back and threatened the women in our dorm. We had the F.B.I. on campus, hiding in the bushes, who finally captured him.

    Go back to these guys? Reconcile? Whether dating or married? That can be life threatening.

    I recommend Gavin de Becker’s book The Gift of Fear.

  55. Jonathan wrote:

    I have read WW for a while, but the groupthink mentality here sickens me. There is no room for actual discussion here, for any other position apart from your view is immediately attacked.

    The group mentality here is always about the victims. It may be that sometimes the details of some situation may not be entirely black and white, but that not withstanding the mentality here is always and always with the victims. And no, nothing and no opinion that starts or ends with endorsing or permitting or tolerating or ignoring or taking lightly the possibility of further victimization is going to be treated with the objectivity of disinterested discourse. We have people here who have been the victims. As a physician I have seen the battered bodies of child victims. The group think here is simple: Oh @#$% no!

    I believe that Jesus made a similar statement in His millstone comment.

  56. okrapod wrote:

    And no, nothing and no opinion that starts or ends with endorsing or permitting or tolerating or ignoring or taking lightly the possibility of further victimization is going to be treated with the objectivity of disinterested discourse.

    Well said.

    There are times to argue and tease out the meaning of words and to intellectualize and to play devils advocate. When you are dealing with a real life victim of violence is not one of them. Safety first. Help for them first. Protect others first.

  57. okrapod wrote:

    Jonathan wrote:
    I have read WW for a while, but the groupthink mentality here sickens me. There is no room for actual discussion here, for any other position apart from your view is immediately attacked.
    The group mentality here is always about the victims. It may be that sometimes the details of some situation may not be entirely black and white, but that not withstanding the mentality here is always and always with the victims. And no, nothing and no opinion that starts or ends with endorsing or permitting or tolerating or ignoring or taking lightly the possibility of further victimization is going to be treated with the objectivity of disinterested discourse. We have people here who have been the victims. As a physician I have seen the battered bodies of child victims. The group think here is simple: Oh @#$% no!
    I believe that Jesus made a similar statement in His millstone comment.

    Standing ovation, Okrapod! Brava!

  58. Sopwith wrote:

    Sometimes the “abusive spouse” ™ is the wife.

    That is true. I have seen that in one woman in the family that I married into and one woman in the family that one of my children married into. And it is not necessarily just the spouse that these people abuse. The school where one of my kids teaches fired a veteran teacher for this very thing a couple of years ago.

    We blame the men more than necessary and we excuse the women more than necessary. Look at how often the male adulterer has a female partner in crime in his adultery-usually. Look at the news and see how many times both a mother and her boyfriend are arrested for child abuse. Women can be ruthless. Watch a school fight between boys and a school fight between girls. Girls can be ferocious-and armed. Male aggression and female aggression may appear quite different in some ways, but the desire to control and dominate is not limited only to males. The tongue, and the damage that can be done with the tongue, is a unisex phenomenon, but it is one in which some women seem to particularly excel. Hence the frequently heard comment ‘she can cut you to ribbons with that hateful mouth of hers’.

    It seems to me that one of the survival skills that young females learn, hopefully in middle school at the latest, is how to deal with rogue females like this. One story-briefly. In the fourth? grade a gang of girls just learning to be bullies thought they would harass one my female grandkids on the playground, but instead of crying she ran at them, chased one down, threw her to the ground and was on top of her getting ready to do who knows what when one of the teachers who happened also to play professional basketball pulled off young grandkid. Everybody was scared as to what the teacher might do, but she said, and here is the point, ‘it’s okay, I am comfortable with female aggression’. Exactly. Female aggression has to be dealt with, and both females and males have to learn to deal with it, and pretending that there is no such thing does not deal with it.

    It is a crying shame that the calvinistas cannot deal with this without making some theological issue that original sin was actually female aggression thus leading to the concept of the subjugation of females.

  59. I studied under one of the top behavioral psychologists in the nation for my undergraduate degree, then moved on to focus on cognitive in my masters. The reason I don’t quote Watson and the like is because I don’t believe the behavioral approach anymore. After becoming a Christian (and no, I am not in an independent fundamental baptist church either as someone suggested), I see the power of the gospel over consistent behaviorism. Having 8 years of formal class work in psychology/counseling, and over 1600 supervised hours of counseling, I DO see value in counseling approaches and methods. Yet, I see said approaches as inferior and supplemental to Scripture. Just because I don’t come to some of the same conclusions as you doesn’t mean I don’t know of which I speak.

  60. Velour wrote:

    I just remembered that country singer Martina McBride had this song and video
    about domestic violence called “Independence Day”.

    Country music has multiple songs about abusive men, most of them end up with them being deceased. Two more I can think of off the top of my head are goodbye earl and the new one by Carrie Underwood, but I can’t remember the name. Also, there is a Miranda one that is along similar lines.

  61. okrapod wrote:

    Look at how often the male adulterer has a female partner in crime in his adultery-usually.

    It does occasionally happen that the female in question has no idea said man is married.

  62. Muff Potter wrote:

    Here’s a clobber verse just for you Gram3:

    Thanks, Muff. I think that’s a practically unassailable clobber verse for ESS! 🙂

  63. Jonathan wrote:

    The reason I don’t quote Watson and the like is because I don’t believe the behavioral approach anymore.

    I hope you let your clients know this beforehand.

  64. Estelle wrote:

    separation with a view to reconciliation at a later date is not necessarily a consequence for the abuser. The abuser just has to be on best behavior and show an outward appearance of change and repentance and then, voila, the victim is back in the abuser’s coils. If the change was not genuine, then the victim is worse off than before.

    Excellent point. Abusers abuse because the abuse gets them what they want at that moment. Abusers are perfectly capable of not abusing if that furthers their goals. Abusers DO.NOT.CARE what other people’s words/teaching/counsel are unless they are able to manipulate those words for their purposes. They only care about their own interests. When well-intentioned by foolish enablers enable, that reinforces the abuser’s disturbed thinking and further convinces the abuser that he/she is really the victim. DARVO is their M.O. and people fall for it, thereby increasing the damage to the real victims, including children who cannot yet make sense of what is happening.

  65. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Gunpowder and Lead?

    Yes, that’s the one I was thinking of. ‘He slapped my face and he shook me like a rag doll, don’t that sound like a real man?’

    I love Miranda.

  66. Lea wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I just remembered that country singer Martina McBride had this song and video
    about domestic violence called “Independence Day”.
    Country music has multiple songs about abusive men, most of them end up with them being deceased. Two more I can think of off the top of my head are goodbye earl and the new one by Carrie Underwood, but I can’t remember the name. Also, there is a Miranda one that is along similar lines.

    Here is “Goodbye Earl” by the Dixie Chicks.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8d0bqLwt6g

    *Note to TWWers. I am posting this music video because I easily found the song mentioned.
    No discussion of politics.

  67. Lea wrote:

    I hope you let your clients know this beforehand.

    It would be very misleading to tell clients that he has a degree in Psychology, since he has deemed it borderline worthless. I would compare it to a medical doctor who gets saved, and then decides to go into faith healing.

  68. The Carrie Underwood recent song is called ‘Church Bells’.

    “It was all bruises, covered in makeup
    Dark sunglasses
    And that next morning, sitting in the back pew
    Praying with the baptist

    She could hear those church bells ringing, ringing
    And up in the loft, that whole choir singing, singing
    Fold your hands and close your eyes
    Yeah, it’s all gonna be alright
    You just listen to the church bells ringing, ringing
    Yeah, they’re ringing”

  69. Lea wrote:

    Yes, that’s the one I was thinking of. ‘He slapped my face and he shook me like a rag doll, don’t that sound like a real man?’

    And he ain’t seen crazy yet!

  70. Jonathan wrote:

    Just because I don’t come to some of the same conclusions as you doesn’t mean I don’t know of which I speak.

    Are you licensed by a state agency to practice? 8 years of college and no knowledge of domestic violence? When did you earn your degree? From where? I’m shocked.

  71. Nancy2 wrote:

    And he ain’t seen crazy yet!

    He wants a fight well now he’s got one 🙂

    Love. Her. (OT, but I’m also in love with her new song “Vice”)

  72. @ Jonathan:
    I know a number of well known Christian psychologists and psychiatrists who support cognitive behavioral therapy. Such an approach, which has proven to be helpful, fits quite well in with a belief in the Scriptures. I have used the technique myself for getting over the long term anxiety I experienced which was associated associated with my daughter’s brain tumor. I cannot begin to tell you how much it helped me. To say I didn’t know the Scripture intimately or to suggest that I did not seek the Spirit to assist me with my anxiety would be ridiculous.

    This approach was recommended by Bill Wilson at Duke and I had the privilege of talking with him about the problems associated with straight Biblical counseling since he was involved, until his death, in a Christian medical fellowship of which I am affiliated. He was a deeply committed Christian and well respected by both Christians and nonChristians alike. He believed that much of the “sola Scriptura” approach to psychiatry was not only naive but downright dangerous in many circumstances.

    The psychiatrist that I consulted walked with me through the system and ever demonstrated how I could apply Scripture to each of the steps. It worked beautifully. He added a short term psychotropic drug which I took for about a year( or was it 6 monthsI cannot remember.)

    So, it seems to me that such an approach is not inferior but superior in utilizing Scripture along with well documented psychological and medical approaches. There are a few psychiatrists at Duke who have also received their MDiv at the divinity school. We have had them speak to our Christian medical group and all were impressed with both their scientific knowledge as well as their faith. They combine both successfully. Duke has now institutued a program in which a medical student can get both an MD and Mdiv. Awesome program!

    You see all of these approaches as inferior to your approach. I see your approach as both limited and inferior since the Scripture is not set up to be a medical textbook. Just as researchers studied and found bacteria and discovered antibiotics, decent, thoughtful researchers have studied the human brain and have found processes as well as medication that have been helpful. For you and your limited background to wipe it all out and say if is just plain inferior sounds a bit egotistical to me.

    You speak of experience but you speak as one person standing up agains the entire body of research because you are a heckuva lot smarter than all of the others. That is called anecdotal and is not respected in any sort of scientific community as proof of anything. Once you subject your findings to rigorous peer review, I will listen to you. Don’t say it cant be done. Bill Wilson and others have proven that it can be.

  73. Sopwith wrote:

    While most wives may not be able to control their husbands through physical threats and violence, some dominate their husbands through their words, looks, and other threatening actions.

    Similar to an abusive husband, an abusive wife may boss her husband around, talk down to him, call him humiliating names, and treat him in a very emasculating way.

    Exactly. Abuse can take different forms, but generally only physical abuse or sexual abuse is taken seriously by the people who can do something about it. Physical power can be equalized and even overcome in various ways, including playing on the guilt/shame of the abused. Children can learn the lesson that very sick and twisted behavior is “normal” and abused people deserve it. Or they learn that they are helpless to stop abuse, so they become fearful and anxious and unable to trust.

    The reason I usually focus on female perps is that there is so much focus on female victims, as there should be! But there simply is not much of any concern for male victims and the effects on the children of seeing their mother abuse their father. Female victims are told to submit more. Male victims (if they are even willing to tell anyone about it) are told to sacrifice more. That is the poison in this way of interpreting and then applying Ephesians 5.

  74. Sopwith wrote:

    Sometimes the “abusive spouse” ™ is the wife.

    This was true in my own family. My mother could never physically intimidate my father. She was emotionally and psychologically abusive to him. She was all that and physically abusive to us kids. Someone who married into the family once asked, “Why does everyone walk on eggshells around her?” We didn’t want to trigger another Exorcist head spinning, pea soup scene.

    It is so damaging when you grow up with this as your “normal.” We didn’t know any different.

  75. okrapod wrote:

    And no, nothing and no opinion that starts or ends with endorsing or permitting or tolerating or ignoring or taking lightly the possibility of further victimization is going to be treated with the objectivity of disinterested discourse.

    This should be capitalized in bold. Thank you.

  76. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    I’ll add that my mother will be one of the 99% of abusers who never changes. She doesn’t think she’s the problem. To her, everyone else is at fault. My sister and I are currently no-contact with her. There can be no reconciliation until she changes. Since she doesn’t even think she needs to change, she will probably go to her grave with relationships as they currently are. It’s sad, but I’m determined to have some measure of peace for myself and my own kids.

  77. Jonathan wrote:

    After becoming a Christian (and no, I am not in an independent fundamental baptist church either as someone suggested), I see the power of the gospel over consistent behaviorism.

    I don’t even know what that means. What is your definition of “gospel” and what is your definition of “consistent behaviorism.”

  78. Gram3 wrote:

    Abuse can take different forms, but generally only physical abuse or sexual abuse is taken seriously by the people who can do something about it.

    I think people have trouble distinguishing and understanding how emotional abuse differs from normal arguments, maybe. Physical and sexual abuse are more obvious. Emotional seems to be more subtle?

  79. Jonathan wrote:

    . But you can’t argue that separation through divorce is always the answer. Separation? Absolutely! And God may not heal in the end after a lifetime of separation. But you can’t argue from Jeremiah, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, or Hosea that final and absolute divorce is the answer. If you are reading the text, and we claim to be Christians, then reconciliation must always be the end goal.

    You also cannot argue that divorce “is not” the answer . . .

  80. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    I’ll add that my mother will be one of the 99% of abusers who never changes. She doesn’t think she’s the problem. To her, everyone else is at fault. My sister and I are currently no-contact with her. There can be no reconciliation until she changes. Since she doesn’t even think she needs to change, she will probably go to her grave with relationships as they currently are. It’s sad, but I’m determined to have some measure of peace for myself and my own kids.

    Good for you guys.

  81. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    It is so damaging when you grow up with this as your “normal.” We didn’t know any different.

    Were you able to get any help? Did anyone listen to you or care about what was happening to you?

  82. Gram3 wrote:

    behaviorism

    Behaviorism is defined as the theory that human and animal behavior can be explained in terms of conditioning, without appeal to thoughts or feelings, and that psychological disorders are best treated by altering behavior patterns.

    also, found this: Behaviorism (also called the behaviorist approach) was the primary paradigm in psychology between 1920 to 1950. Watson sighting: Historically, the most significant distinction between versions of behaviorism is that between Watson’s original classical behaviorism, and forms of behaviorism later inspired by his work, known collectively as neobehaviorism.

    So a lot of that is sort of outdated, but the idea of behavior modification has stuck around and been useful.

  83. dee wrote:

    Bill Wilson at Duke and I had the privilege of talking with him about the problems associated with straight Biblical counseling since he was involved, until his death, in a Christian medical fellowship of which I am affiliated. He was a deeply committed Christian and well respected by both Christians and nonChristians alike. He believed that much of the “sola Scriptura” approach to psychiatry was not only naive but downright dangerous in many circumstances.

    Excellent comment, Dee. Thank you for sharing all of that information. So very helpful.

    My ex-pastors/elders destroyed lives at my former NeoCalvinist church by NOT getting people help and treating everything with Scripture verses. Example: An older woman alcoholic was diagnosed with a gossip problem instead of a drinking problem! And everyone who had problems with her behavior was required to have months in meetings with the pastors/elders to have “unity”. It’s NOT possible to have “unity” with an active substance abuser.

  84. Lea wrote:

    I think people have trouble distinguishing and understanding how emotional abuse differs from normal arguments, maybe.

    That is food for thought. I think what BTDT and Okrapod have written should wake people up. If a child is left with an abusive mother all day, who will protect that child from her abuse but also from the warping of that child’s conception of what normal human behavior and relationships should be?

  85. Gram3 wrote:

    Were you able to get any help? Did anyone listen to you or care about what was happening to you?

    We lived overseas when the worst of it was happening. I didn’t even know most mothers weren’t like mine. It never crossed my mind to talk to anyone. My sister’s friends, otoh, said my mom was crazy.

    Some of the things she did years ago, like chasing my sister around the bedroom beating her with a camel whip, would probably have CPS involved today. Except there was no CPS in the KSA.

    My sister has sought counseling since becoming an adult. I’ve learned a lot from Dr. Google.

  86. Gram3 wrote:

    Jonathan wrote:
    After becoming a Christian (and no, I am not in an independent fundamental baptist church either as someone suggested), I see the power of the gospel over consistent behaviorism.
    I don’t even know what that means. What is your definition of “gospel” and what is your definition of “consistent behaviorism.”

    I don’t know what that means either.

    At my ex-church it meant the pastors/elders threw Scripture verses around and expected them to work like a magic wand or pixie dust. They didn’t “cure” a Dyslexic with a genetically inherited brain disorder and severe memory problems who accused other church members of “lying” when she had short-term memory problems and couldn’t remember entire events and conversations. The pastors/elders blamed church members like me and accused people of being “in sin” toward this member. Nonsense.

    A woman alcoholic could have benefited from a physician supervising her care. She didn’t get that. The pastors/elders treated her with Scripture verses and her alcoholism was chalked up as that she really had a “gossip” problem. She (a widow), her adult children, and church members were harmed.

  87. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Were you able to get any help? Did anyone listen to you or care about what was happening to you?
    We lived overseas when the worst of it was happening. I didn’t even know most mothers weren’t like mine. It never crossed my mind to talk to anyone. My sister’s friends, otoh, said my mom was crazy.
    Some of the things she did years ago, like chasing my sister around the bedroom beating her with a camel whip, would probably have CPS involved today. Except there was no CPS in the KSA.
    My sister has sought counseling since becoming an adult. I’ve learned a lot from Dr. Google.

    Is your mom mentally ill? Bi-polar?

  88. Jonathan wrote:

    et, I see said approaches as inferior and supplemental to Scripture. Just because I don’t come to some of the same conclusions as you doesn’t mean I don’t know of which I speak.

    Said approaches saved my child’s life!!! Being in a Reformed Church while said child was dealing with some horrific issues had just about killed the child. Should I trust your experience and what you speak of??

  89. Velour wrote:

    Is your mom mentally ill? Bi-polar?

    We don’t know for sure. My mom’s brother was a nurse in the mental health field. I had occasion to share with him several years ago what it was like growing up. He told me how sorry he was. He said she’d had problems when younger, and that he thought she may have a personality disorder. There’s a lot of info online about narcissistic mothers, and she fits the descriptions perfectly.

  90. Jonathan wrote:

    I DO see value in counseling approaches and methods. Yet, I see said approaches as inferior and supplemental to Scripture.

    May I say this. I am not a psychologist in any form, but after my internship I did start a residency in psychiatry before changing to a different specialty. What we were doing was a medical approach to mental problems. This is miles away from what you are talking about. I say this only to say that there are many approaches to people’s problems including among mental health professionals. You certainly are in a position to form your own opinions within the area of expertise in which you are trained, but when you then interject religious beliefs about scripture and what you think scripture says and means, an area in which you have apparently no training but only self study, and then mix that with the knowledge which you have from your professional training, and then sell that mixture to the public, IMO that is deceptive and in my line of work that would possibly qualify as malpractice. Now, to refer a client for spiritual guidance to someone qualified to do that would be one thing; but to piggy back ‘the bible says’ onto your secular credentials based merely on the fact that you have this or that opinion, that is just not right. It would be similar as if I said that hey I have had a tad of exposure to mental issues so let me guide the patient along those lines. For somebody doing that both hospital privileges and medical license would be in danger, and some patient’s attorney would have already sent the dreaded letter of intent.

    Let me be blunt, religious conversion and self study of the bible alone do not qualify someone to be a spiritual advisor. To market that to the public is unacceptable.

  91. Velour wrote:

    Please pray, Muff, if you’d be so kind. Those poor tykes in that state whose parents refuse to get them medical care.

    I’m not known as a prayin’ man Velour, but this kind of idiocy gets my blood a boilin’ quicker n’ a tin coffee pot over a five log fire. Where else is there to go cept’ to Abraham’s God? And that I will do. Spurred by conscience.

  92. okrapod wrote:

    You certainly are in a position to form your own opinions within the area of expertise in which you are trained, but when you then interject religious beliefs about scripture and what you think scripture says and means, an area in which you have apparently no training but only self study, and then mix that with the knowledge which you have from your professional training, and then sell that mixture to the public, IMO that is deceptive and in my line of work that would possibly qualify as malpractice

    In my state (California) it’s also a crime called the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine. It can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor or as a felony. Harm doesn’t even have to occur.
    It can be things like diagnosis.

    Because of what my ex-pastors/elders did in crossing this line, the harm they caused to my life — telling several hundred people what a horrible and dishonest person I was an blaming me for another church member’s genetically inherited brain disorder (Dyslexia) and memory problems (she’s been getting a monthly disability check from Social Security for more than 30 years and can’t work, failed school)…I did turn in my ex-pastors/elders to the state. This is very serious business and they messed up badly.

  93. Muff Potter wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Please pray, Muff, if you’d be so kind. Those poor tykes in that state whose parents refuse to get them medical care.
    I’m not known as a prayin’ man Velour, but this kind of idiocy gets my blood a boilin’ quicker n’ a tin coffee pot over a five log fire. Where else is there to go cept’ to Abraham’s God? And that I will do. Spurred by conscience.

    Thanks, Muff.

    I didn’t know you weren’t a prayin’ man. Holding good thoughts too. But those poor tykes.

  94. @ Lea:
    Right. My concern was to elicit from Jonathan what he means by what he said. He seems to be dismissing cognitive behavioral theory and techniques when it also seems to me that the NT take a similar approach. Change your thinking to change your behavior. Renew your mind. Be conformed to Christ (Reality) rather than be conformed to the world (distorted reality.)

  95. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I didn’t even know most mothers weren’t like mine. It never crossed my mind to talk to anyone. My sister’s friends, otoh, said my mom was crazy.

    How can a child do otherwise? A mother norms reality for a child. If a child cannot trust his/her mother or father, how can a child trust anyone or even know how to determine if someone is trustworthy?

    I thankful you have found some peace.

  96. okrapod wrote:

    I say this only to say that there are many approaches to people’s problems including among mental health professionals.

    Indeed. And for many people with say depression the best approach is a combination of medication and therapy. For mild depression therapy alone or even exercise might take care of the problem. I had a friend who has psychotic depression at one point. You need medication for something like that.

    Gram3 wrote:

    He seems to be dismissing cognitive behavioral theory and techniques when it also seems to me that the NT take a similar approach. Change your thinking to change your behavior. Renew your mind. Be conformed to Christ (Reality) rather than be conformed to the world (distorted reality.)

    Indeed. The bible never claimed to contain all knowledge. It is useful for instruction, but it is not the only thing that is useful. And God never promised to fix every problem or evil person in the world. This black and white thinking hurts my head.

  97. Gram3 wrote:

    What is your definition of “gospel”

    He seems to rely heavily on the OT. The Gospel according to Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Malachi’s?

  98. Nancy2 wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    What is your definition of “gospel”

    He seems to rely heavily on the OT. The Gospel according to Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Malachi’s?

    What’s weird is that passage in Deuteronomy allows divorce for ‘dislike’. Of course the men are the only ones allowed to make those decisions.

  99. Lea wrote:

    Emotional seems to be more subtle?

    Emotional abuse doesn’t leave bruises, scars, and broken bones.

  100. Lea wrote:

    Behaviorism is defined as the theory that human and animal behavior can be explained in terms of conditioning,

    Pavlov’s dogs.

  101. Nancy2 wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    Emotional seems to be more subtle?
    Emotional abuse doesn’t leave bruises, scars, and broken bones.

    I saw a news headline the other day. When police went to rescue an abused child the child said, “My name is Idiot.”

  102. Gram3 wrote:

    I thankful you have found some peace.

    Thank you. I’ve learned a lot. There is a TWW commenter named Jeannette Altes who first steered me in the right direction to understand what I might be dealing with. I hope this discussion will help others.

    Do you remember some of the discussions about the Julie McMahon situation? There was a lot of comments about personality disorders (because of Tony Jones’ NPD). I think it was you who first mentioned other members in the family having “fleas.” That was so helpful to me. I always knew I’d learned some of my mom’s behaviors, and it made me fearful that I was just like her. I just had fleas. Fleas that I have learned to recognize and eradicate over the years.

  103. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I think it was you who first mentioned other members in the family having “fleas.”

    Could be. I have had occasion to think about this quite a lot for various reasons over the years. I have not personally experienced abuse of any kind, but members of my family have as have friends and the family members of close friends. And we have had occasion to counsel (hate how *that* word has been corrupted, too) more than a few young couples over the years who mostly just needed to have their thinking sharpened by questioning assumptions they held. If someone’s view of reality (the way things are or should be) has been distorted by abusive personalities, then that person is going to behave in ways that reflect that.

  104. Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    “My name is Idiot.”
    That made this old man cry.
    Oh God, rescue our children from this evil generation.

    It hurt my heart too, Max.

  105. Jonathan wrote:

    After becoming a Christian (and no, I am not in an independent fundamental baptist church either as someone suggested), I see the power of the gospel over consistent behaviorism. .

    1st of all – I’ve gleaned over a few of your posts and there is a detectable amount of IFB theology woven into your views. I sat under a FORMER IFB pastor who taught the church that couples don’t need counseling – they just needed to go out witnessing door to door and share the gospel. And to note – it was a non-denominational church, which in many cases, translates to a patchwork quilt style of doctrine, depending on the pastor and his history/education/experience. No accountability (ecclesial authority structure) = very shaky foundation.

    I say all that because purporting the idea that the ‘Gospel’ cures every ill that ails you is a very poor view of the bible. The purpose of the Gospel is to save mankind (Rom. 1:16). Once we are saved, we are not instantly delivered from our wounds from childhood and dysfunctional relational patterns. As Christians we are charged to enter into community with other believers for the purpose of fellowship, confession & counsel.

  106. @ Gram3:
    Big huge problem seems to be a lack of understanding of metanoia which was badly translated as repentance. It’s not penance. It is the process of completely changing mind, thinking and direction.

  107. Velour wrote:

    I didn’t know you weren’t a prayin’ man. Holding good thoughts too. But those poor tykes.

    I meant the long-winded Christianese laced stuff (prayer) I used to hear when I was a Calvary Chapelite.
    That’s not my thing. In my opinion, prayer is a very subjective thing, and not the same for everybody, it’s the heart of the individual that counts.

  108. Do you see the problem with this line of thinking? “I know that God can heal…. but it isn’t likely in these specific situations.” I believe God CAN heal. No caveats necessary. Just because there have been situations where God hasn’t brought about restoration doesn’t mean you can make that the norm. God is no respecter of persons, that he looks on us according to certain sins (or any perceived righteousness). I have a friend whose wife recently hit him, and yet I believe God can heal their marriage.
    “God was fiathful to his people but that faithfulness resulted in generation being sent into captivity for generations-not a few years.”
    But God PURSUED them the entire time. Jeremiah 3 – it is recorded that Israel is “sent away.” In the VERY SAME chapter God is calling her back to come to Him. It is simply wrong to use God “sending away” Israel to advocate for divorce and a complete cutting off. If you want to use Matt 19 as your grounds for divorce, while I may not agree, I can at least concede the point.

    God can and does resurrect people from the dead but does that mean such is the normal course of things? Is it a failure in theological consistency to actual prepare for a funeral as a Christian? I don’t think so. And that is not a knock against the belief of God’s capability to raise someone from the dead. Such is a miracle, which means it is out of the ordinary course of things–supernatural. The same goes for adultery violated marriages, etc.

    Jeremiah 3:8 is a reference to God metaphorically divorcing Israel over her continued adulterous ways. I have as problem with anyone saying it doesn’t REALLY mean “divorce” when the Bible says divorce or the euphemistic short-hand for such an action (putting away). All sorts of heresy flourish when we start down the road of “Well, God really didn’t mean it when God said x.”

  109. Velour wrote:

    okrapod wrote:

    You certainly are in a position to form your own opinions within the area of expertise in which you are trained, but when you then interject religious beliefs about scripture and what you think scripture says and means, an area in which you have apparently no training but only self study, and then mix that with the knowledge which you have from your professional training, and then sell that mixture to the public, IMO that is deceptive and in my line of work that would possibly qualify as malpractice

    In my state (California) it’s also a crime called the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine. It can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor or as a felony. Harm doesn’t even have to occur.
    It can be things like diagnosis.

    Because of what my ex-pastors/elders did in crossing this line, the harm they caused to my life — telling several hundred people what a horrible and dishonest person I was an blaming me for another church member’s genetically inherited brain disorder (Dyslexia) and memory problems (she’s been getting a monthly disability check from Social Security for more than 30 years and can’t work, failed school)…I did turn in my ex-pastors/elders to the state. This is very serious business and they messed up badly.

    To give Jonathan credit, he didn’t say he was practicing currently, or that he counseled in a way contrary to guidelines.

  110. Divorce Minister wrote:

    God can and does resurrect people from the dead but does that mean such is the normal course of things? Is it a failure in theological consistency to actual prepare for a funeral as a Christian? I don’t think so. And that is not a knock against the belief of God’s capability to raise someone from the dead. Such is a miracle, which means it is out of the ordinary course of things–supernatural. The same goes for adultery violated marriages, etc.
    Jeremiah 3:8 is a reference to God metaphorically divorcing Israel over her continued adulterous ways. I have as problem with anyone saying it doesn’t REALLY mean “divorce

    Well said. Why don’t we see routine insistences of God restoring limbs to amputees or making a quadriplegic walk again. Joni prayed for that miracle for years. Then she realized that her wheelchair was God’s answer.

  111. dee wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    “consistent behaviorism.”

    He s utilizing terminology to downplay psych problems such as pedophilia.

    Wow. I am appalled. As a moderator of this site, I’m disgusted you would stoop to such trash. Goodbye.

  112. Jonathan wrote:

    Wow. I am appalled.

    You could have attempted to answer Gram3’s question, but you didn’t. When Dee offers an explanation, you get offended and stomp out. Why not offer another explanation? That would be the mature thing to do. Your behavior concerns me for the poor people who seek your “help.”

  113. Muff Potter wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I didn’t know you weren’t a prayin’ man. Holding good thoughts too. But those poor tykes.
    I meant the long-winded Christianese laced stuff (prayer) I used to hear when I was a Calvary Chapelite.
    That’s not my thing. In my opinion, prayer is a very subjective thing, and not the same for everybody, it’s the heart of the individual that counts.

    Gotcha, Muff. Thanks for explaining. Any sincere prayer will suffice in this situation.
    Thanks, friend.

  114. Jonathan wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Gram3 wrote:
    “consistent behaviorism.”
    He s utilizing terminology to downplay psych problems such as pedophilia.
    Wow. I am appalled. As a moderator of this site, I’m disgusted you would stoop to such trash. Goodbye.

    Jonathan,

    You owe Dee an apology. She is a kind, smart, gracious, funny, well-educated, loving Christian.

    As I said before, I find your claims hard to believe. Your church doesn’t have a website. You don’t know their views on John Calvin. You don’t know your own views on John Calvin. You don’t know your church’s views or your own views on Complementarianism. Women may teach at your church in some circumstances, but you didn’t specify. You don’t know your pastors’ teaching about Young Earth v. Old Earth and on and on.

    Whenever someone has asked you questions, good questions, fair questions, you’ve generally starting yesterday thrown a temper tantrum and resorted to name calling.

    I still doubt your educational claims. Anyone, like Roebuck has posted, can claim anything. They can look up a few things on the internet.

  115. dee wrote:

    He s utilizing terminology to downplay psych problems such as pedophilia.

    I was actually wondering if there was some specific reason you mentioned pedophilia (in relation to behaviorism), but then I see part of your response earlier was ““Secondly, I know God can do anything, including healing an abuser. However, that is rare when it comes to abuse and pedophile”

    To which Jonathan replied: “Do you see the problem with this line of thinking?“

    So maybe Jonathan would like to jump in again and clarify, because he seemed to be speaking about marriage, but if you take his line of thinking out, you get situations where churches and believers give everyone ‘second chances’ like that guy in Memphis who got a second chance to be on church staff (with a key likely?) and sneak record women. Again.

    [And I really hope TWW will be covering that story because I’m thoroughly disgusted not only that it happened but that the man was hired by another church and given the chance to hurt more people]

  116. Jonathan wrote:

    Wow. I am appalled. As a moderator of this site, I’m disgusted you would stoop to such trash. Goodbye.

    Jonathan, if you are going to be a counselor, you need to be able to respond with calm and measured reason. Dee cited pedophilia as an *example* of a disorder that is very resistant to treatment of any kind. You are the one saying that the gospel is the answer. I asked you what you meant by “consistent behaviorism” and “gospel.” That is an attempt for understanding because I can think of lots of things those terms *might* mean.

  117. Jonathan wrote:

    As a moderator of this site, I’m disgusted you would stoop to such trash. Goodbye.

    You are not contesting my statement. You know that pedophilia can be classified as consistent behaviorism as can domestic abuse, child abuse, and a subject that I shall write about today.

    I know you said “Good-bye.” so I am writing this for others. If one can prove that something is just a behavior that is easily modified like teaching a child not to bite his sister, then all psych issues can be downgraded to repent and be saved and the miracle will occur.

    Jonathan is angry that I called him on lots of what he said which he didn’t answer. He found a way to stomp off and pretend that he is the one who is wounded and I am the one who is the problem. This is a technique that is often used by abusers and abusive churches which causes me to wonder a bit about Jonathan.

  118. dee wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Your wish is my command. I start writing on this topic today.

    Oh good!

    And that’s for clarifying above re: consistent behaviorism. I work in the mental health area but we don’t talk much theory, mostly practical applications like therapies, so I wasn’t sure if I was missing something.

  119. dee wrote:

    This is a technique that is often used by abusers and abusive churches which causes me to wonder a bit about Jonathan.

    DARVO. Deny, Accuse, Reverse Victim and Offender.

  120. dee wrote:

    Jonathan is angry that I called him on lots of what he said which he didn’t answer. He found a way to stomp off and pretend that he is the one who is wounded and I am the one who is the problem. This is a technique that is often used by abusers and abusive churches which causes me to wonder a bit about Jonathan.

    I think Mr. my Way Or The Highway Pouty Baby took his bat and ball and went home.
    If he counsels with the same attitude he has shown on TWW, someone will definitely get hurt.

  121. (I haven’t read through every post on here since I was last on this thread. I may get around to reading all them later and/or replying later)

    @ Lea:

    I have seen other similar news stories.

    There are churches who either hire KNOWN pedos, or other types of perps, or who give such a guy a “second chance,” and that guy attacks more people.

    And the churches in question are not sorry! They actually get indignant that they are being criticized for being so cavalier about people’s safety.

    Amy Smith did a post or two a year or more ago on her blog (“Watch Keep” on blog spot) of how pastor Steve Furtick honored a known pedo, Norman Vigue, at his church. Furtick called the guy his “hero” during church services. Norman Vigue heads the church’s sexual purity classes or group for men.

    Headline from “Raw Story” site:
    “Church tries to punish girls who sued over sex abuse by outing them: ’They should not be able to hide’” (July 2016)

    From Alert Net site:
    “Kansas Church Hired Known Sex offender [Rodney Sexton] Who Then Molested Disabled Churchgoer [who has the mental capacity of an 8 year old]: Police” (Dec 2015)

    ‘”She’s just as guilty as he is,” Pastor defends hiring sex offender convicted of rape, sodomy’
    http://kfor.com/2016/04/16/shes-just-as-guilty-as-he-is-pastor-defends-hiring-sex-offender-convicted-or-rape-sodomy/

    Headline on Raw Story site:
    “Family: Tennessee church hid bathroom rape of 3-year-old, lied to parents and urged against prosecution” (Dec 2015)

    Headline from Christian Post site:
    “Church Hires Registered Sex Offender as Pastor; Man Now Faces Charges of Alleged Rape, Sodomy of 14-Y-O Boy at Church” (June 2014)

    From Daily Tribune:
    “Warren church accused of allowing pastor, principal to rape boy” (October 2012)

    Officials of a Warren church and religious school should have stopped obvious “grooming” of a teenage boy whom the church’s pastor [Christopher Settlemoir] later raped.
    A lawsuit also claims the pastor never should have been hired because the church knew about his pedophilic tendencies.

  122. The reason I asked Jonathan what he meant by “consistent behaviorism” is because I had never heard that precise term. Because I am not a psy*. So, I did not know if he meant behaviorists who are consistent (human beings are merely reactors to external stimuli) or if he meant something else like what Dee said about behavior that is resistant to change. Jonathan was not seeking understanding, and that is regrettable.

  123. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    It was a huge relief to learn this.

    That’s good. IMO, it is a reasonable survival response to ongoing abuse from which there is no escape or no perceived means of escape. The victim no longer knows what to think or how to think because, really, it does not matter what the victim does. The abuser will find some way to “justify” the abuse. The abuser’s reality is the only reality that exists, for all practical purposes. It is crazy-making.

  124. Gram3 wrote:

    Jonathan was not seeking understanding, and that is regrettable.

    I always appreciate when people engage. I hope, even if their ears are closed now, maybe some sense will filter in! I think it’s best to ask questions or make points, even if they get ignored.

    I hadn’t heard that particular term which is why I was looking it up….

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    It was a huge relief to learn this.

    I’m sure! You know, I was never abused but I have sometimes wondered if I picked up some sort of extra risk aversion or something due to a family member who was.

  125. Jonathan wrote:

    I studied under one of the top behavioral psychologists in the nation for my undergraduate degree, then moved on to focus on cognitive in my masters. The reason I don’t quote Watson and the like is because I don’t believe the behavioral approach anymore. After becoming a Christian (and no, I am not in an independent fundamental baptist church either as someone suggested), I see the power of the gospel over consistent behaviorism. Having 8 years of formal class work in psychology/counseling, and over 1600 supervised hours of counseling, I DO see value in counseling approaches and methods. Yet, I see said approaches as inferior and supplemental to Scripture. Just because I don’t come to some of the same conclusions as you doesn’t mean I don’t know of which I speak.

    Are you certified? I just ask because the “Biblical” (used to be called Nouthetic) counseling programs at many seminaries are no longer going that route. I like my medical providers board certified.

    People are free to go what route they want. They are free to see Mormon counselors, Jehovah witness counselors or even Islamic counselors.

    From what I have seen in mega churches and other parachurch ministries that offer counseling Is that the counselor does not really have much autonomy. They are lumped into the top down hierarchical system.

  126. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    What a great way of looking at it.
    It was a huge relief to learn this. I googled it earlier, and found it mentioned on one website:
    Fleas – When a non-personality-disordered individual (Non-PD) begins imitating or emulating some of the disordered behavior of a loved one or family member with a personality disorder this is sometimes referred to as “getting fleas”.
    http://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/fleas

    Thank you for that link! I sent to someone who it will help a lot. I had never heard of it….

  127. Gram3 wrote:

    Jonathan wrote:

    After becoming a Christian (and no, I am not in an independent fundamental baptist church either as someone suggested), I see the power of the gospel over consistent behaviorism.

    I don’t even know what that means. What is your definition of “gospel” and what is your definition of “consistent behaviorism.”

    Johnathan might need to realize that some paedophiles are so sick that the most Christian thing to do for them is to keep them FROM being anywhere AROUND temptation. The Gospel asks us to help those we encounter on the side of the road who are wounded and among them, we will find some whose wounds are ‘rabid’ and they are no longer ‘in control’ of how they can deal with their own infection. For the sake of these people, we need to keep them carefully protected from their own uncontrollable proclivities.

    I suppose ‘the Gospel’ means many different things to different people, but in the Jewish religion, God’s greatest attribute was seen as His ‘loving kindness’ (chesed).

    If the Gospel of Our Lord is related to the God Who Is Love, then the most loving thing to do for a brother who is a paedophile is to keep him FROM children, and all areas where children are. Churches that think they ‘know better’ have failed. Badly. So, knowing this, other Churches have NO EXCUSE in repeating the same mistake and permitting a paedophile access to children. No excuse. None.

  128. Christiane wrote:

    For the sake of these people, we need to keep them carefully protected from their own uncontrollable proclivities.

    The Mennonites in Canada, and a few groups in the United States in a few states, have started Circles of Support and Accountability (C.O.S.A.) for high risk sex offenders. Highly trained volunteers, a team, work with a sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agency and the sex offender. The Mennonites say the ministry is expensive and time consuming and not every church or area can commit to doing it. Sex offenders are ministered to apart from the normal congregation and apart from children.

    The Mennonites say the groups work very well to reduce repeat offenders. Researchers say that they don’t have evidence, as of yet, to support that C.O.S.A. sex offenders are less likely to commit new sex offenses than non-C.O.S.A. sex offenders who don’t have that support system. Time will tell.

    But kudos to the Mennonites for handling the issue responsibly.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circles_of_Support_and_Accountability

    I know that some drugs are also used to chemically castrate sex offenders and to reduce their urges. But the drugs are expensive.
    http://www.medicaldaily.com/chemical-castration-sex-offenders-386339

  129. dee wrote:

    @ Lea:
    It is one of those biblical counseling things.

    Yeah? Everybody I work with is licensed evidence based…so that’s why I’m not familiar. And also why this stuff continuously shocks me!

  130. Jonathan wrote:

    (and no, I am not in an independent fundamental baptist church either as someone suggested)

    I only asked if you used to comment on stuff fundies like, I never said anything about what kind of church you are in. ?

  131. Gram3 wrote:

    Abusers abuse because the abuse gets them what they want at that moment. Abusers are perfectly capable of not abusing if that furthers their goals.

    This is a long post but I think it is so worthwhile to read, the guy who wrote this, John Shore, really knows whereof he speaks. From this page http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BfSnttYVZZwJ:forums.our-place-online.net/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D6864+&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    He Lies

    A man who abuses his wife or girlfriend doesn’t have the same kind of relationship with the truth that normal people do. For him, the truth is entirely conditional. This rare quality is what renders the abusive man so confounding, so dangerous. No matter how messed up they seem to be, most people, at some point, come down to a truth that for them is a constant. Something for them, which is organic to them, is always true for them. You never betray your family. You don’t take what isn’t yours. You never hit a woman. Whatever it might be for any given person, for them it’s a constant. It’s a steady, inviolate part of their consciousness and behavior.

    An abusive man has no consistent or immutable truth within him, because his entire life is a lie. He is a lie. When he goes out in the world, he does not go out as a man who beats his wife. He goes out as a man who shares the values and morals of all the men out in the world who don’t beat their wives. He is pretending to be someone he isn’t. He is pretending to care about things he doesn’t. He is pretending to believe in things he doesn’t. He is pretending to have nothing in particular to be profoundly ashamed of.

    He is a lying. Not a little. Not about a particular aspect of who he is. He is lying, all the time, about the entirely of his life and character. And he needs you to be complicit in that lie. You are the nearby needle he needs to not pop his balloon, the stage manager (and co-star) who makes his play possible. He depends upon your shame at being with the kind of man he is to stop you from publicly acknowledging that you are, in fact, with a man like him.

    Saying that a man’s relationship with the truth is grounded in nothing isn’t at all the same thing as saying that man’s feelings, when aroused, are not fully felt and utterly sincere. Part of what keeps a woman in a relationship with an abusive man is how deeply he clearly feels it when he is in the throes of his remorse. He really means he’ll never hit you again. His tears are real. He is profoundly, terribly, painfully sorry for what he has done.

    For as long as that mood lasts, that is. Which, if you’re in an abusive relationship, you know is usually distressingly soon after you make it clear to him that you forgive him. That’s usually all an abusive man needs to start seeing green lights again. Your forgiveness is all he needs to know you’ll take more. Then it’s just a matter of time before he gives it to you again.

    But yes, when the abusive man feels his regret, he feels it with all the passion and conviction that anyone ever feels such a thing. But he feels it in the only way he can—which, because he is broken, means in such a way that it cannot stick. It doesn’t go that deep; in doesn’t sink that far in. It can’t. That’s what makes the abusive man such a freak.

    If you’re in an abusive relationship, what you must never, ever forget about your man is that he lies to you every time he looks at you. His whole life is a lie to you, himself, and everyone else in the world. An abusive man who is being charming or cute or funny or sentimental or sorry is like one of those wax hamburgers that restaurants use to illustrate their menus. They have virtually everything going for them—except that they aren’t hamburgers. They’re pretend hamburgers. They’re pretend delicious. They’re pretend nutritious. They have no more relationship to real food than a mannequin has to real people.

    When it comes to your abusive man, ignore what your eyes, ears, mind, and even heart tell you about him. You can believe nothing about him. It’s like a nightmare: the best, surest, and quickest way to make one end is to simply open your eyes.

  132. Nancy2 wrote:

    He seems to rely heavily on the OT. The Gospel according to Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Malachi’s?

    I’m always amazed at people who want to turn back to the OT way of relating to God. To me, the whole narrative makes clear all of the approaches that failed to reform mankind. God speaking directly to people did not change their hearts. Starting over from scratch with only righteous people did not have any lasting affect. The law was not able to make people good. Blessing the people abundantly when they did good and punishing them when they rebelled did not change their hearts. It was a continual cycle of failure and war. Look at the state of things when Christ came.

    Christ came to effect a new covenant, he came to save us, gave us his own indwelling Spirit. When Christ died, the veil was ripped in two. The law was done away. He gave us these guiding words:

    “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”
    “Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

    And some want to go back to the way of Deuteronomy? They think they are going to make it work when all of those who went before could not? Christ is not good enough for them? I guess I am missing something, I just don’t get it.

  133. siteseer wrote:

    When it comes to your abusive man, ignore what your eyes, ears, mind, and even heart tell you about him. You can believe nothing about him.

    This, this whole thing, is so good.

  134. okrapod wrote:

    The group mentality here is always about the victims.

    And it is a pretty diverse group. Jonathan equates disagreement with his notions as “group think” but the thin skin he exhibited here indicates he has had little interaction outside his own groupthink.

  135. @ Jonathan:

    The Scriptures / Jesus / prayer / faith / the Gospel
    did not heal my mother of her cancer (she died).
    did not heal my sister of her verbally abusive nature.
    did not heal me of depression or my anxiety (which is more than likely biological, not purely emotional or psychological, as it runs on one side of my family)

    I was actually pretty much delivered of depression reading books and blogs by mostly Non-Christian psychiatrists and other sorts of mental health professionals, with only a smattering of Christians among the stuff I read that were any good.

    Learn to let go of this paradigm that ‘The Bible or Jesus is The Answer to Everything And Always Works.’

    Because experience, life lived, and personal observation, says a big, fat ‘no’ to that.

  136. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I’ll add that my mother will be one of the 99% of abusers who never changes. She doesn’t think she’s the problem. To her, everyone else is at fault. My sister and I are currently no-contact with her.

    That sounds a lot like my sister in some ways. She’s verbally abusive. I’ve cut back contact on her.

    When I started standing up to her 2 – 3 years ago, she did one of two things: get even angrier at me, or else play the victim.

    She’d tell me to feel sorry for her, that she was only being verbally abusive because she’s under so much stress, or her life isn’t going well.

    My sister doesn’t see herself or her behavior as the problem. So, I relate to your family dynamic, sounds similar to mine.

  137. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Some of the things she did years ago, like chasing my sister around the bedroom beating her with a camel whip

    My sister once chased our brother around the house with a butcher knife (this is when they were older teens).

  138. @ Max:
    There is an even more (at least IMO) awful child abuse story just out this week of a ten year old girl.

    I don’t even want to recap it here. It’s a very disturbing story, and the girl’s own mother just sat there and watch it happen, did not protect her own kid.

    You can go to the news sites and search for “Victoria Martens New Mexico” and you can find a lot of news stories about it.

    One of the most disgusting child abuse stories I’ve ever read.

    I read a similar one to that one about six months ago, about a baby who was abused similarly several years ago by some of her family.

  139. Anna wrote:

    Christians we are charged to enter into community with other believers for the purpose of fellowship, confession & counsel.

    If only more Christians actually carried that out.

    I sought out other Christians in my time of grief but didn’t get companionship, support, encouragement. I got the opposite.

    I can see how what the New Testament says could be wonderful and helpful (to ‘weep with those who weep’ etc), if only Christians would actually do what the New Testament tells them to do.

    But that has not been my experience with most Christians. Some of them read the Bible but don’t do what it says. 🙁

  140. Jonathan wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Gram3 wrote:
    “consistent behaviorism.”

    dee replied:
    He s utilizing terminology to downplay psych problems such as pedophilia.
    ———-
    Jonathan said:
    Wow. I am appalled. As a moderator of this site, I’m disgusted you would stoop to such trash. Goodbye.

    What is it you’re appalled by?

    I find it appalling you expect married women to put their lives on hold for years and years in the off, slim chance God might, just might, sprinkle fairy dust on to their abusive husbands to make them change.

    That you wouldn’t allow such a woman to divorce her husband, if she came to you for counsel, you’d not put divorce on the table as an option.

    It’s a fair analogy, I think. Some behaviors and mindsets, such as pedophilia and wife abuse, cannot be changed by just reading the Bible or praying about it.

  141. Daisy wrote:

    Learn to let go of this paradigm that ‘The Bible or Jesus is The Answer to Everything And Always Works.’

    Kind of a mental health variant of the prosperity gospel’s “Blab it and Grab it” theology.

  142. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I sent to someone who it will help a lot.

    I’m so glad it will be helpful, Lydia! Like Gram3 said about dealing with this, “It is crazy-making.”

    It is part of healing to put a name and description to a vague concept in order to wrap your head around it. This one clicked. Children cannot escape. It is their normal.

  143. siteseer wrote:

    “What can be guaranteed is this: If she loved, forgave, kept arms of redemption open in the midst of the pain and violation, and did nothing that closed the door for restoration, then she will stand before the Lord without regret for the choice she made.”
    I find it amazing that human beings feel confidence to make assertions like this. How does she know how the person will stand before the Lord or what will happen? She has absolutely no more clue than anyone else what will happen on that day!
    I think there are very real reasons the woman may end up feeling regret for staying in an unhealthy marriage. She may regret having children with this faithless man and bringing them into a world that was damaging and ungodly. She may regret staying with this man and ending up with HIV or some other fallout from his choices that she has no control over. If her children grew up in the world of faithlessness and absorbed it and went on to live likewise, she may very much regret that. She may regret not having enough faith to put an end to this unhappy marriage before it led to worse and worse disasters. She may think of what she could have done with her life if her energies hadn’t been consumed by trying to make the impossible work.
    I really feel that marriage has become an idol in the Christian church today. Somehow the contract has become more important than the people involved!

    That is a very good point. Hadn’t thought of it that way but yes, I have to agree. As if the church doesn’t have enough idols!

  144. siteseer wrote:

    I only asked if you used to comment on stuff fundies like, I never said anything about what kind of church you are in. ?

    That was me.

    I said in an older post on here that he might possibly be an IFB, or I compared his views to IFB, because IFBs hold to similar views as he does, naive stuff about Jesus or the Bible is the instant answer for everything, God always supernaturally heals people of stuff like spousal abuse, depression, pedophilia, etc.

    Even though he denied being IFB (he says he attends a non-denom church), his attitudes on some of these subjects still sounds very IFB-ish to me.

  145. Bill M wrote:

    Kind of a mental health variant of the prosperity gospel’s “Blab it and Grab it” theology.

    I read an article years ago, or in a book, that discussed that.

    How Christians who are rightly critical of the Prosperity Gospel (where God is supposed to send you money or physically heal you), who never- the- less cling to an Emotional or Mental Health version of the Prosperity Gospel.

    The same Christian who will scoff at the idea of God healing you physically or financially by just praying, having faith, or reading the Bible, will never the less accept the same premise in regards to psychological problems.

    I wish I could remember where I read that.

  146. Daisy wrote:

    The same Christian who will scoff at the idea of God healing you physically or financially by just praying, having faith, or reading the Bible, will never the less accept the same premise in regards to psychological problems.

    I wish I could remember where I read that.

    Flag it for me if it come back to you.

  147. Uncle Dad wrote:

    A few months ago I wrote in the comments here that my wife was diagnosed with stage IV endometrial cancer. For those who know what these numbers mean, her CA 125 was 64. After chemo and surgery her latest CA 125 is 8. Her oncologist says she is clear of cancer. Thank all of you for your prayers.
    There is a comparison I want to make with cancer and divorce. … As we began this journey there were those who told us what we should and should not do regarding the treatment plans. My response was, “Is this what you did when you had cancer?” … “Well, no, I’ve never had cancer.” … “Okay. Is this what you did when someone close to you had cancer?” … “No one close to me has had cancer.” … “Well, then, what you need to do is shut up.”
    So it is with divorce. If you haven’t faced it, shut up.

    Bill M wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    The same Christian who will scoff at the idea of God healing you physically or financially by just praying, having faith, or reading the Bible, will never the less accept the same premise in regards to psychological problems.
    I wish I could remember where I read that.
    Flag it for me if it come back to you.

    Well said.

  148. Clarissa…well said also! My sister died of cancer back in 1998 and when I visit her gravesite I still tear up as those memories from 18 years ago come back and make it feel like yesterday. My wife’s pain from her previous marriage also comes back and it makes it sound like all those things happened yesterday.

    And yes, people need to shut the hell up if they can’t relate or haven’t gone thru it themselves. When my sis was dying there was a bag behind her chair full of books and videos and audio tapes from all those phony faith healers that people had given to her. You know how mad that makes me! I am not a violent person but I can feel the anger when I think about it.

    Again, you have spoken truth!

  149. @ Bill M:

    I’ll let you know if I find it again.

    I can’t remember if it was in a book I read (if so, it was probably “Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded” by Dwight L. Carlson, MD), or maybe a web page.

    I’m pretty sure the content I am thinking of used a phrase like “mental health prosperity gospel” or “emotional prosperity gospel.”

    I searched around online and wasn’t able to find the specific page I’m thinking of (or, like I said, maybe it was in a book??), but I did find this page, which shares the same sentiments:

    Calling Depression What It Really Is
    http://www.mannaexpressonline.com/dropping-the-qdq-bomb-facing-depression-head-on-means-calling-it-what-it-is-a-disease/

    Snippet:

    “The church is not a safe place for strugglers, especially for people with depression.

    If somebody has cancer, the church rallies around them.

    But when somebody has a mental illness, there seems to be a distancing, a marginalization of the hurt person.

    If I have a headache, no one judges me for taking Tylenol. But if I have depression, I am judged for taking Prozac.”

    And from the same page:

    “Larry Crabb’s idea in ‘Inside Out’ is that the church promotes the emotional prosperity gospel’—the idea that you’re not going to have to struggle internally if you are walking with Jesus,” Spatola says.
    “Yet the more you see the world as it is, the more you will struggle. It may be a sign of spiritual maturity. The church’s response to depressed people is often shame; people with depression already are struggling with false guilt. It makes the current emotional pain worse. The best thing to do is to offer your presence.”

  150. @ Daisy:

    After reading some more about Larry Crabb, I’m not sure if I agree with all of his views. His name looks familiar, I think I’ve seen it before.
    He sounds like an early advocate of nouthetic type counseling.

  151. @ Nancy2:
    I have my doubts about Jonathan.That is one of the hard things about the internet. You cannot see the face of the person with whom you are dialoging. The whole conversation felt off to me.

  152. Daisy wrote:

    And from the same page:

    “Larry Crabb’s idea in ‘Inside Out’ is that the church promotes the emotional prosperity gospel’—the idea that you’re not going to have to struggle internally if you are walking with Jesus,” Spatola says.
    “Yet the more you see the world as it is, the more you will struggle. It may be a sign of spiritual maturity. The church’s response to depressed people is often shame; people with depression already are struggling with false guilt. It makes the current emotional pain worse. The best thing to do is to offer your presence.”

    That is a good quote. I’ve run across some folks that are unsympathetic to mental illness yet they despise the prosperity gospel. Equating the two will be a good tool to help them understand.
    Thanks Daisy

  153. dee wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    And also why this stuff continuously shocks me!
    You are a bit like me. Hope springs eternal.

    Someone told me once that I expect too much of people. I expect them to be better, smarter, more competent, decent, truthful, etc…and i need to lower my expectations. But I can’t seem to do that.

    dee wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    I have my doubts about Jonathan.That is one of the hard things about the internet. You cannot see the face of the person with whom you are dialoging. The whole conversation felt off to me.

    I never know what to think of people. IT seems no matter how crazy something sounds, there are people out there who believe it!

    I do find it rather difficult to believe these opinions are coming from a person with education and experience in the mental health field.

  154. dee wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    I have my doubts about Jonathan.That is one of the hard things about the internet. You cannot see the face of the person with whom you are dialoging. The whole conversation felt off to me.

    Just so you know, my former church’s pastors/elders at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley arranged with YELP and Google to take down my negative reviews about the excommunicatons/shunnings and heavy shepherding.

    The senior pastor also sent out a recent email telling people that I was unstable and that all of our police departments and the sheriff’s said so. I contacted them and they said NOTHING of the kind. Additionally, my ex-senior pastor told hundreds of people that I was aggressively harassing church members and to ignore me. I have NEVER called, texted, or emailed church members, or had in-person contact with them.

    I have, however, received alarmed emails from church members including the recent July internal email about me.

    A lot of the writing, the tracking me down (since I mentioned Wartburg Watch in my YELP review and my Google review)…makes me wonder…if it’s him. Writing style is the same.
    And the breathtaking hostility directed…at me.

    *******
    “Dear members-

    One of our former members who is in the final step of church discipline [LIE. They banned me from church property 2 years ago over a Megan’s List sex offender], has recently [LIE. I have done no such thing ever] been aggressively harassing [LIE. I have had no contact with church members in any form] some of our current members [LIE. They can fill out police reports and tell the police that. It is A CRIME to file a false police report and they will be arrested and prosecuted]. She has been spreading malicious gossip [LIE. I told one Christian school not to rent their gym to the church again as Megan’s List sex offender is invited to volunteer with children] [name of police department No. 1 where a church deacon works], the [name of police department No. 2 where the church secretary’s husband works] and [law enforcement agency no. 3 which supervises the sex offender] all say she is unstable [Law enforcement agencies said that’s A LIE AND THEY SAID NO SUCH THING] and should be ignored and or avoided [What’s there to ignore or avoid when I haven’t had any contact? Oh yes, truth hitting internet posts that pain the GBFSV pastors/elders]. So if she sends you a text or email [I haven’t sent anyone anything – ever, they suggest you ignore it and delete it with no reply [law enforcement agencies said this is a lie and they are starting investigations as they NEVER told pastor that and the deacon and the church secretary’s husband DO NOT speak for their agencies]. They believe if she receives no attention [another lie according to law enforcement], that in time she will stop [ LIE. I never started. How could I “stop” what I’ve never started?]
    In the meantime ask God for protection over the Body of GBF. [Dee, God should protect the sweet saints from Cliff McManis and the rest of the pastors/elders at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley]

    Blessings in Christ,

    Pastor Cliff”

  155. Lea wrote:

    I do find it rather difficult to believe these opinions are coming from a person with education and experience in the mental health field.

    yup

  156. @ Velour:
    I think it would be interesting for me to contact both the police and your former church and see how they respond. Do you have copies of the emails from the church?

  157. Emma G wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    okrapod wrote:
    You certainly are in a position to form your own opinions within the area of expertise in which you are trained, but when you then interject religious beliefs about scripture and what you think scripture says and means, an area in which you have apparently no training but only self study, and then mix that with the knowledge which you have from your professional training, and then sell that mixture to the public, IMO that is deceptive and in my line of work that would possibly qualify as malpractice
    In my state (California) it’s also a crime called the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine. It can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor or as a felony. Harm doesn’t even have to occur.
    It can be things like diagnosis.
    Because of what my ex-pastors/elders did in crossing this line, the harm they caused to my life — telling several hundred people what a horrible and dishonest person I was an blaming me for another church member’s genetically inherited brain disorder (Dyslexia) and memory problems (she’s been getting a monthly disability check from Social Security for more than 30 years and can’t work, failed school)…I did turn in my ex-pastors/elders to the state. This is very serious business and they messed up badly.
    To give Jonathan credit, he didn’t say he was practicing currently, or that he counseled in a way contrary to guidelines.

    I was adding on to Okrapod’s pointing out the seriousness of the issue of “malpractice” in these situations. I added that it also crosses in to criminal conduct, the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine.

    Jonathan didn’t say he was practicing. But he claimed an education (undergraduate and a Master’s) in Psychology and Counseling and displayed no knowledge that someone who has been in college/university for seven years should have. He also didn’t describe the kind of school he went to, its standing, and if its accredited. Many Bible colleges don’t train in the “big issues”. And many of them don’t even do ethical training by licensed professionals. “OK, these are going to be your limits and beyond that it’s the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine in California, a crime that can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor or a felony, resulting in jail or prison time. Whatever state you work in, you will need to be trained on that state’s laws.”

  158. dee wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I think it would be interesting for me to contact both the police and your former church and see how they respond. Do you have copies of the emails from the church?

    Yes, I’ll send it to you.

    I’ve already contacted them and asked. They have no idea what my ex-pastor was talking about.

  159. Velour wrote:

    Emma G wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    okrapod wrote:
    You certainly are in a position to form your own opinions within the area of expertise in which you are trained, but when you then interject religious beliefs about scripture and what you think scripture says and means, an area in which you have apparently no training but only self study, and then mix that with the knowledge which you have from your professional training, and then sell that mixture to the public, IMO that is deceptive and in my line of work that would possibly qualify as malpractice
    In my state (California) it’s also a crime called the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine. It can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor or as a felony. Harm doesn’t even have to occur.
    It can be things like diagnosis.
    Because of what my ex-pastors/elders did in crossing this line, the harm they caused to my life — telling several hundred people what a horrible and dishonest person I was an blaming me for another church member’s genetically inherited brain disorder (Dyslexia) and memory problems (she’s been getting a monthly disability check from Social Security for more than 30 years and can’t work, failed school)…I did turn in my ex-pastors/elders to the state. This is very serious business and they messed up badly.
    To give Jonathan credit, he didn’t say he was practicing currently, or that he counseled in a way contrary to guidelines.

    I was adding on to Okrapod’s pointing out the seriousness of the issue of “malpractice” in these situations. I added that it also crosses in to criminal conduct, the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine.

    Jonathan didn’t say he was practicing. But he claimed an education (undergraduate and a Master’s) in Psychology and Counseling and displayed no knowledge that someone who has been in college/university for seven years should have. He also didn’t describe the kind of school he went to, its standing, and if its accredited. Many Bible colleges don’t train in the “big issues”. And many of them don’t even do ethical training by licensed professionals. “OK, these are going to be your limits and beyond that it’s the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine in California, a crime that can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor or a felony, resulting in jail or prison time. Whatever state you work in, you will need to be trained on that state’s laws.”

    Professional ethics is one area that determines whether or not some practice IS ‘professional’ …. one reason licensing is mandated by states is to ensure that this kind of training has been a part of a professional’s preparation to work with clients. I don’t know what goes on in ‘Bible Colleges’ or what sort of people teach there, but if Mary Kassian is considered accomplished enough to be a ‘professor’ at a major SBC seminary, then my faith
    in institutions of lesser reputation is almost non-existent. I would hope that some of them have the humility to KNOW what they are not qualified to teach. I suppose that is a faint hope, but not all Christian people involved in that kind of shabby preparation are all ‘in it for the money’, no. And if some have been genuinely called to serve, then the humility WILL be in them, which brings with it grace and some wisdom to at least ‘do no harm’. (?)

  160. Jonathan wrote:

    Yes, send the offending spouse away in cases of abuse! Protection of the other spouse and rest of the family is foremost concern in those cases! But, God did not send Israel away without then following up with beckoning to come back through repentance and renewed dedication to the covenant vows.

    I’m a few days late seeing this, but wow is this a bad way to think of the abused spouse’s role. She should not have to ‘beckon’ back a man who hurt her.

    IF an abused spouse decides to take someone back, it should only be after there has been enough time to truly evaluate their behavior to be sure they have changed. This may never happen. This can easily happen on other side of a divorce.

  161. Daisy wrote:

    Even though he denied being IFB (he says he attends a non-denom church), his attitudes on some of these subjects still sounds very IFB-ish to me.

    Back in the Eighties, there used to be a joke going around on a Christian radio talk show:

    “I was Nondenominational — you know, Baptist with the labels painted over?”

  162. Bill M wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Learn to let go of this paradigm that ‘The Bible or Jesus is The Answer to Everything And Always Works.’

    Kind of a mental health variant of the prosperity gospel’s “Blab it and Grab it” theology.

    AKA The Secret with a Christian coat of paint.

  163. Gram3 wrote:

    dee wrote:

    This is a technique that is often used by abusers and abusive churches which causes me to wonder a bit about Jonathan.

    DARVO. Deny, Accuse, Reverse Victim and Offender.

    I first read that as “PARVO” — a life-threatening viral disease of dogs (and maybe cats) that gets mentioned a lot on Vet Ranch’s YouTube videos.

  164. Velour wrote:

    How did you get through a Counseling program, graduate, and have no knowledge of domestic violence?

    He didn’t. He knows about it. He just doesn’t give a flying [obscenity deleted] about the women it happens to.
    After all, we’re just WOMEN.

  165. dee wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    I have my doubts about Jonathan.That is one of the hard things about the internet. You cannot see the face of the person with whom you are dialoging. The whole conversation felt off to me.

    I have been wondering the same thing…..

  166. zooey111 wrote:

    dee wrote:
    @ Nancy2:
    I have my doubts about Jonathan.That is one of the hard things about the internet. You cannot see the face of the person with whom you are dialoging. The whole conversation felt off to me.
    I have been wondering the same thing…..

    Like Roebuck says, anybody can claim anything on the internet.

    By the way, here’s my new blog about my ex-church. https://gbfsvchurchabuse.org/

    I was contacted via social media and asked to do a radio interview in another state (via phone) about the church. Many people have had problems with serious abuse from John MacArthur’s Master’s Seminary graduates and other serious problems. That’s the topic that is going to be discussed…and they found my blog. Already. It’s not even a month old.