Mark Driscoll Is ‘Officially’ Senior Pastor at The Trinity Church/Scottsdale

"The ministry of The Trinity Church is ruled by God, influenced by wise counsel, governed by a board, led by the Senior Pastor, run by staff, carried out by members on mission."

The Trinity Church
Screen Shot 2016-08-07 at 9.23.26 PMPhoto By Mirele

Well, it's official…  The Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona launched yesterday, August 7, 2016, with Mark Driscoll at its helm.  Josh Green, a reporter from King 5 News, based in Washington State, showed up to cover the much anticipated event.  According to the King 5 News report, Driscoll made the following remarks during his sermon, which was broadcast via the church website:

"We tend to think if things go well it's from the Lord and if things are hard it must be from Satan. Let me [tell you] sometimes hard things come from God.  Sometimes God will allow us to endure hardship for two reasons: to change who we are and where we are.”

Obviously, the Driscolls have changed where they are by relocating from the Seattle area to the Phoenix area.  What remains to be seen is has Mark Driscoll really changed who he is? 

Just who was Mark Driscoll before he retreated to Arizona?  Here is what Dee and I observed.  He was a young, brash pastor with a macho persona and a potty mouth.  He bullied people at his former church and plagiarized in his books.  He went around the country instructing guys to 'man up'; yet when it was time for him to face his own serious problems, he ran like a coward.  In our opinion, Mark Driscoll was/is both unreachable and unteachable.  

For those of you who are familiar with the Driscolls, you may recall that they sat down with Brian Houston to discuss their departure from the church they planted – Mars Hill Church.  As reported in The Christian Post, God told Grace Driscoll they were "released from Mars Hill Church".  Mark Driscoll stated the following:

'the Lord revealed to me a trap has been set, there's no way for us to return to leadership.' And I didn't know what that meant or what was going on at the time. He said we're released and we need to resign." 

With regard to those attending Trinity Church, they have either turned a blind eye to Driscoll's past or are hoping and praying that he has truly changed.  By the way, what is the likelihood that a man in his mid-forties can change as drastically as Driscoll needs to change?

According to the King 5 News article:

"Our family [the Driscoll clan] is here because of a storm … a storm in our own life and in the middle of it, we prayed and God gave of his word to my wife and myself… at two separate times,” Driscoll said. “We surrendered to the Lord in the midst of our storm so that God could do work in us and move us to this place for mission.”

Our 'boots on the ground' reporter/protester Dee Holmes has been faithful to show up week after week outside The Trinity Church to protest Mark Driscoll's new ministry.  Below is a photo she sent us of the sign she held warning Trinity attendees about their pastor.  The King 5 News reporter interviewed her yesterday, and this is what he had to share:

Screen Shot 2016-08-07 at 9.25.23 PM

One of the first things people saw when they pulled in to The Trinity Church was a sign that protester Dee Holmes held in her hands. She’s driven multiple Sundays from her home in Mesa to protest Driscoll’s opening at Trinity. Her sign this weekend referred to “MARK’S EGO, MONEY & POWER.”

"My goal is to catch the people that don't know anything about Driscoll,” she said. “It's been less than two years since he imploded Mars Hill Church in Seattle and here he is starting up another church. This should give people pause."

When she arrived home yesterday afternoon, Dee Holmes (aka mirele), posted the following comment on our blog (see screen shot below):

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/08/05/nine-marks-of-an-abusive-church-3/comment-page-1/#comment-274437

Perhaps the first to report on this church launch was our friend Warren Throckmorton, who writes over at Patheos.  In his post, he included some of the information shared above along with a photo from The Trinity Church's Twitter (see below).

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/08/07/mark-driscolls-launches-the-trinity-church/?ref_widget=trending&ref_blog=jesuscreed&ref_post=posts

Warren Throckmorton also reported on the number of cars that showed up in the parking lot for the two services (as reported by Dee Holmes).  Here is a partial view of the parking lot sent to us by Dee Holmes (mirele).

Screen Shot 2016-08-07 at 9.40.44 PM

As the signs in front of the church and on the big screen indicate, the sermon topic during the first 'official' worship service was Jonah.  Perhaps Mark Driscoll believes he was swallowed up by a big (symbolic) fish and spit out onto the dry land of Arizona. 

We're not so sure about that; however, we do believe it's highly possible that in symbolic terms the 'big fish' may very well be The Trinity Church.  Those who meet inside its walls may reach a point (as the Mars Hill folks did) where they realize something is terribly wrong!  At that point they may be looking for a way out. Perhaps this song by FFH (Far From Home) will ring true with them in the future…  It's one of my favorites by them.

Comments

Mark Driscoll Is ‘Officially’ Senior Pastor at The Trinity Church/Scottsdale — 324 Comments

  1. Thank you Mirele!
    I wish I could hear Driscoll asking the staff, “Is she here again?”

  2. By the way, what is the likelihood that a man in his mid-forties can change as drastically as Driscoll needs to change?

    What is the likelihood that a man has changed when he has not admitted he did anything wrong?

  3. Quick comment 1 of 2

    Gay marriage was legalised in 2014 in the UK. (The Scottish parliament passed legislation slightly before the Westminster parliament – this being a devolved matter – although due to the various legal practicalities, the new law was quicker to come into effect in England and Wales.)

    Following the respective parliamentary votes, a lot of Christians were very hurt, frightened, angry and bitter. They launched criticisms on social and other media about the decision and some of them are still hurting, angry and bitter: they still won’t just accept it and move on. They just go on, and on, and on, insisting that gay marriage is “wrong” and “sinful”.

    They really need to just let it go. Let. It. Go.

    Because it is always wrong to point out sin, right? Well… obviously, it’s OK for me to point out sin, because I’m doing it for the Kingdom, and motivated by a desire for holiness. But when you little people point out sin, it’s wrong. This from Deuteronomy 24:

    Do not take advantage of a hired worker who is poor and needy, whether that worker is a fellow Israelite or a foreigner residing in one of your towns. Pay them their wages each day before sunset, because they are poor and are counting on it. Otherwise they may cry to the Lord against you, and they will be guilty of sinful questioning, which is a political embarrassment for the Lord your God and creates problems for My brand identity.

  4. Quick comment 2 of 2

    So, the Olympics are on the noo. And there’s been a big hoo-hah about performance-enhancing drugs, with more high-profile athletes openly saying that team-mates who’ve been caught doping shouldn’t be there. (Perhaps they’re angry and bitter, etc, etc.)

    A growing body of scientific evidence indicates that performance-enhancing drugs can often confer an unfair advantage for many years – long after a 4-year ban has expired. There are numerous parallels, I think, between “forgiving” drug-cheats in sport and allowing false pastors to move sideways to prey on different populations of sheeple. In the run-up to the current Olympics, the conversation on performance-enhancing drugs here in the UK has focused much more on those clean athletes who were cheated out of possible medals by the dopers. In other words, the focus has begun to shift on what “forgiveness” and “redemption” and “restoration” should look like for the real, direct victims of the drug cheats.

    Someone who despises God and sees godliness only, or mainly, as a means of gain, will also despise those whom God respects. They will continue to pay lip-service to honouring “Jesus” whilst attacking his little ones (in every sense of that phrase) and, thereby, attacking him. They’ll continue to fight and hamper efforts to shine light on the effects of their behaviour. Men like Driskle will continue to feast on God’s people, demand salaries and status while they do it, and demand admiration for their “humility” even when they’re caught. They will continue to want the best of all worlds, permanently demanding that others pick up the bill for the consequences of their actions. That’s why the Church needs Wartburg Watches.

  5. siteseer wrote:

    By the way, what is the likelihood that a man in his mid-forties can change as drastically as Driscoll needs to change?

    What is the likelihood that a man has changed when he has not admitted he did anything wrong?

    Exactly. Zilch.

    Excellent job getting press miriele! At least people know that there is something hinky. Maybe that will save some from checking him out.

  6. I cannot decide if that building looks more like a circus tent or the spaceship from The Day the Earth Stood Still or possibly the Jetson’s church.

  7. Loren Haas wrote:

    Thank you Mirele!
    I wish I could hear Driscoll asking the staff, “Is she here again?”

    Oh, that made me laugh and laugh. I know Grace Driscoll saw me on Sunday because I saw her drive into the parking lot.

  8. I’m copying over this comment by GWInsida over at Warren’s place, because s/he watched Driscoll’s sermonizing and had some comments on it. Yes it’s long, but insightful:

    I watched the launch sermon. Since no one else is detailing content I will summarize some of the highlights for anyone interested. Mark Driscoll of The Trinity Church Phoenix opened by discussing how the Word of God was the only truth and, therefore, was the only thing you could trust. Everything else was just opinion, critique, misguided notions, commentary, etc. It sounded like he was subtly taking a swipe at his critics, saying that since he was nobly addressing the Word of God you can trust him – but be sure to tune out anything else you hear.

    He was back to being the ringmaster extraordinaire, working that stage like a boss. Gone were his flip flops and t-shirts. In spite of it being well over 100 degrees today, he was back in his long sleeved white shirt (sleeves rolled up so folks know he’s back in the trenches) with his tweedy professor vest and the one surprise of a pair of khakis instead of his 501’s rolled up like Fonzy.

    Despite looking like he had never left Seattle, he tried to dive in head first as a Phoenician talking about how much he loves lounging in his pool, reciting a lengthy list of cities in the metropolitan area and even taking time to mock Apache Junction, as if he knows all about that area. He shrewdly took the “us against them” route declaring that all the people in attendance were now “missionaries” who had been deliberately sent by God to liberate Nineveh/Phoenix because the people in Phoenix are also rising from the ashes like he is, from failed businesses, failed marriages, etc finding solace in this new city. He spoke as though Phoenix had no natives and had just recently exploded population wise, despite it being one of the largest cities in the U.S. long before MD even created his now failed, disgraced Seattle church. He even had the gall to tell the audience that they were wrong for justifying their bad behavior including “stealing from your employer” in his list of sins that people try to rationalize. The irony apparently was lost on the new Nineveh missionaries.

    But back to how TTC plant came to be. He decreed that this plant was handed to him directly from God. Because he is so obedient to God, he is only following orders, like Jonah was. By referencing direct revelations from God he was basically saying that his decision to plant this new church in AZ was a mandate from God, so you cannot question it. That trick has his “wise counsel” Robert Morris from Gateway Church in Southlake, TX, written all over it.

    MD explained how the first time he heard from God, God had spoken to him directly and clearly while in college, at a men’s retreat, and told Mark that he was to become a preacher who would teach and lead men and plant churches all over. He was flabbergasted! He barely even knew what Christianity was, yet God had chosen him from the billions to do this. He said he confirmed this with the head pastor at the retreat who he trusted, so he knows this was God’s will for him.

    Later he claimed that he and Grace received more specific instructions from God on how they were supposed to leave Seattle and move to Phoenix/Nineveh to start all over. He leaves out the part where this means that God Almighty expressly instructed this shepherd to abandon his entire flock with no proper leave taking process to help his hurting sheep heal from their emotional and spiritual devastation. To this day, God has apparently not seen fit to instruct Mark to reach out to his former flock. Sounds just like God, doesn’t it?

    Mark simply disregards this whole aspect to his story on being told to move and expects everyone to believe that God instructed him to leave before the investigation on him was complete and ignore the biblical mandate that requires reconciliation with one’s elders and one’s church when one has sinned in specific, disqualifying ways. For those not familiar with the church planting organization Mark created, Acts 29, voluntary submission to your church elders is of the utmost importance. Mark wrote those rules himself, and by golly, he made everyone else submit to them, or else….[ed, links omitted because they didn’t copy over so well] or really it’s all over the internet, so dominant was Mark’s teaching and execution on this point so long as he was the Lord and Master over discipline, submission and reconciliation. Mark also pointed out how grossly unchurched Phoenix/Ninevah is so maybe none of the people will understand how Mark is giving the Bible (ya know his sole source of truth) the finger by doing what he did.

    Mark then conveniently explains how God further confirmed that he was to be the modern day Jonah, by personally sending the most wise and godly pastors alive into his and Grace’s lives in order to support them and love them (translation: give him a bunch of new Pentecostal speaking gigs and tithe money to fully escape any semblance of biblical or personal accountability so he can start over again, despite him being a man whose own church planting organization, Acts 29, found him to be DISQUALIFIED to be a pastor then fired him, while approximately 40 of his OWN pastors and elders filed disqualifying complaints against him.)

    For a little background on MD’s whole mentor/oversight philosophy, back in 2013, Mark Driscoll wrote/preached/taught that he had never once had a pastor or mentor over him or speaking into his life since he was in college, which means the whole of his preaching career. This is not consistent with biblical instruction btw. He claimed that he wanted one but describes in his book Real Marriage (pg 10) how “occasionally we’d meet a Christian pastor or counselor who was supposed to be an expert in these areas, but we never spoke with them in much detail, because in time we found out they either had marriages as bad as ours or they had been committing adultery and were disqualified for ministry”. That’s right folks. Mark Driscoll lived in the 15th largest metropolitan area in the third most populated country in the world, with over 3.7M people within easy reach of him, yet he and Grace could not possibly find ONE single pastor or mentor during his 20 year spiral of narcissistic abuse to speak into his life. Technically, Mark had dozens of elders at Mars Hill, but he didn’t consider them worthy of giving him advice and we know how he treated any of them who did not fall in line with his demands.

    This went on until, he faced implosion. Then God miraculously sent him two of the most avaricious, monetizing, marketing wizard, manipulative televangelists to finally speak into his life. And of course it didn’t hurt that these men live over 2,000 miles away and had never personally witnessed any of the carnage he had caused or spoken to any of the thousands of victims directly. It also didn’t hurt that Robert Morris had only met Mark once, very briefly at a Judah Smith show, and Jimmy Evans had never met him at all, prior to embracing him as one of their own.

    It took the great state of Texas to finally produce two mentors without those pesky morality issues that had previously caused Mark to not submit to pastoring for the last 2 decades he was in ministry. And of course those new mentors eagerly confirmed that God Almighty was calling Mark to flee Seattle, eschew all accountability and responsibility and start over with loads of snow cones, bouncy houses and rockin’ worship and best of all – no local elders!

    But wait…..what about Robert Morris committing adultery and admitting to being so immoral that he had to take three years off from ministry to deal with his lust issues? And what about Jimmy being abusive to his wife Karen earlier in their marriage and the fact that she almost didn’t marry him because just days before their white wedding he was being “immoral” with another woman? No matter. Jimmy and Robert are millionaires now and evidently that’s what matters most to God when it comes to picking wise godly counsel to reform a book selling, reformission reverend. The fact that neither Morris nor Evans studied theology prior to becoming pastors apparently isn’t that important to God either. They have the entertainment X-Factor down pat and commoners cannot be “ushered into God’s presence” without awesome entertainment values (they really claim this). BTW, as Mark likens himself to Jonah, over and over, he keeps saying how the story of Jonah was really the story about Jesus, meaning Mark, with the support of his two overlords, is pretty much the new Christ.

    New members of TTC should carefully consider that Mark was totally out of control when he had dozens of actual elders who lived in the same city as him who felt deeply responsible to the flock that they represented. Jimmy Evans and Robert Morris could care less about the people of Phoenix/Ninevah and they physically aren’t there to oversee what is going on. If you want to go to “church” to be titillated or merely entertained, you’ll get plenty of both at TTC, so perhaps you are in the right place. Just understand that you must be willing to submit all to MD’s lordship to get those two things.

    Mark has made no visible, tangible efforts to address the underlying causes of his abusive behavior. We know this because he has not reconciled or made amends to the thousands he has harmed and he has offered no proof of other rehabilitation efforts other than vague references to conversations with unnamed godly counsel. Isn’t it so very interesting that Mark does not specifically name those “godly men” who are counseling him? It’s almost as if his counselors are afraid of their own congregations finding out that they are supplanting this abuser? Well, deception is in God’s true nature, right Mark?

    Additionally, Jimmy Evans’ church, Trinity Fellowship of Amarillo, paid for their worship team to fly to Scottsdale to provide the live entertainment. What a great use of tithes from the good people of Amarillo. All this Mark Driscoll financial support will no doubt show up lumped into the “Missions and Outreach” numbers “given to support local, national, and international missions and outreaches” same as with the Gateway tithes used to support this endeavor. The tithers get to brag about being one of the most generous churches on the planet while the puppet masters get to quietly move the money around the table for private gain. In November, Robert Morris, Jimmy Evans and Trinity Amarillo’s new head pastor Jimmy Witcher, will then be hosted by Mark Driscoll to hold their “Pastors School” at TTC so that all 4 can rake more tithe money into their personal bank accounts, just like the Bible says they should.

    My hat is off to Seattle’s King 5 for taking the trouble to fly down to AZ in the heat to cover this story. Thank you for not forgetting the tens of thousands of innocent victims. I wonder how long it will be before Phoenix has to do the next story?

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/08/07/mark-driscolls-launches-the-trinity-church/

  9. @ Gram3:
    The Jetsons! Throw back!

    It looks like the typical brutal modern architecture that always makes me feel like a drone.

    In a bit of travel this summer, we ran across quite a few mega or mini megas and it was all the same. Either a huge box or round building with no windows and massive parking.

    I know it has nothing to do with it except the formula is all about maximum space That is why pews are verboten in most of them. Theater style for the show seats more nickel s and noses. The drones streaming in.

    Btw, I don’t really think Driscoll is all that upset with attendance. I think he has much bigger plans and this place is the launching pad. The big money is in media. I give it some time and we will have Mark doing his “I see things” online with people hitting the donate button and texting their prayer requests.

    A more modern Pat Robertson or Binny Hinn type.

  10. @ mirele:
    Great comment.

    I would quibble over the Acts 29 saga, though. Matt Chandler was on the board for quite a whike and had no problem with Driscoll. Thought he was great and godly. Driscoll stepped down on his own volition then decided to go back. He could do this, you see.

    It was only when things reached critical mass for his partners (SBC, etc) was a deal brokered that Chandler would act as Prez of ACS 29. Chandler, as we now have evidence, is not that different when it comes to using and controlling people. Just quieter about it.

  11. mirele wrote:

    My hat is off to Seattle’s King 5 for taking the trouble to fly down to AZ in the heat to cover this story. Thank you for not forgetting the tens of thousands of innocent victims. I wonder how long it will be before Phoenix has to do the next story?

    So Mark and Grace are hearing directly from God!

  12. Given the trinity authority/submission debate right now, I wonder if there will be an authority/submission structure in Trinity Church. So far is it set up with membership contracts, as if it were a clone of Mars Hill?

  13. mirele wrote:

    And what about Jimmy being abusive to his wife Karen earlier in their marriage and the fact that she almost didn’t marry him because just days before their white wedding he was being “immoral” with another woman? No matter.

    Woah! That’s the guy who gave the marriage sermon I totally didn’t want to hear on valentines day at gateway! He said he was a bad husband early on but didn’t get terribly specific about it.

  14. siteseer wrote:

    What is the likelihood that a man has changed when he has not admitted he did anything wrong?

    That is an excellent point. Defenders of Driscoll poo poo all the abuse and financial malfeasance and plagiarism with the formulaic “But what of forgiveness? Are you even a Christian considering you have no forgiveness?”

    So what of forgiveness? Can there be forgiveness without repentance? If a person is unrepentant, spitting in God’s face, unwilling to humble themselves and confess sin, or, if they do backhandedly confess that “mistakes were made” while lying about “reaching out to everyone whom I’ve offended”, by all accounts reaching out to essentially no one at all, is there anything to forgive? Does God forgive the unrepentant? Evidently not. Should we? Evidently not, certainly our righteousness can’t exceed Jesus’. Should we hate Mark Driscoll, and wish for his destruction? No. But should we forgive him? So far as I know and by all accounts, he hasn’t really acknowledged that there’s anything much to forgive or to repent of (except for the accounts I’ve read of Driscoll informing Christendom that he was working through his forgiveness for those who’d harmed him).

  15. mot wrote:

    Why are people so gullible?

    Ever since I discovered TWW, many years ago, that has been the question I have been asking. Along with ‘why do they put up with being fleeced and abused long after the evidence is crystal clear that’s what’s going on?’.

    I understand about social pressures, and the ‘psychology of previous investment’, and all that, but still…

    These charlatan ‘pastors’ are experts at what they do, like any other con-man in any other racket. And now one of the worst of them is back. I read the account above about the opening-day sermon, and I thought I was going to be sick. I simply can not believe that MD is back, that he has any shred of legitimacy left with anyone, at least as a pastor. He certainly doesn’t have any shred of shame…

  16. Law Prof wrote:

    I’ve read of Driscoll informing Christendom that he was working through his forgiveness for those who’d harmed him).

    Folk like Driscoll always make it about others. They never take personal responsibility.

  17. roebuck wrote:

    mot wrote:
    Why are people so gullible?
    Ever since I discovered TWW, many years ago, that has been the question I have been asking. Along with ‘why do they put up with being fleeced and abused long after the evidence is crystal clear that’s what’s going on?’.
    I understand about social pressures, and the ‘psychology of previous investment’, and all that, but still…
    These charlatan ‘pastors’ are experts at what they do, like any other con-man in any other racket. And now one of the worst of them is back. I read the account above about the opening-day sermon, and I thought I was going to be sick. I simply can not believe that MD is back, that he has any shred of legitimacy left with anyone, at least as a pastor. He certainly doesn’t have any shred of shame…

    Some people aren’t just gullible sheep going stupidly to the slaughter, some people know exactly what they’re getting and it’s exactly what they want, which in the case of beta males in hipster Seattle, might have been a bully who’d say and do the things they secretly fantasized about doing (but that would never go over at the coffee house or the Earth Day event). And, as an added bonus, that guy up there in the pulpit, the one who bragged about broken dead bodies under the church bus, hoping by God’s grace there’d be more, that guy who smirked about breaking the noses of elders who didn’t fall into line, that guy with the Mickey Mouse t-shirt is now actually preaching a “theology” of men waking up to morning oral gratification from the little lady–in the name of God!

    Think Tyler Durden in Fight Club.

    Driscoll gives people whatever fantasy they might want, and while he’s not particularly insightful, handsome or all that dynamic a speaker by normal standards, his mind moves just nimbly enough to figure out, as even a mediocre grifter knows, that everyone has a weak spot. In the case of many of the ladies, perhaps it’s getting the men into the church in the first place, and they might just be willing to stage a few morning gratifications to get it done, in the case of the men, there are plenty to exploit, as described above. Again, think Tyler Durden.

  18. BTW…as part of yesterday’s post I emailed Steve Highfill (Director of EFCA West) Dave Page (Director of Church Planting for EFCA West) and Kevin Compolian (EFCA President) and asked for a statement. They have until the end of the week.

  19. @ NJ:

    With all this information available at one's fingertips via the world wide web, there is no longer an excuse for being misled and manipulated. They will have no one to blame but themselves this go 'round. 

    "A word to the wise is sufficient, fools have to be convinced."

  20. Lea wrote:

    He said he was a bad husband early on but didn’t get terribly specific about it.

    Are there any respectable husbands who would agree to join some Church that demanded that their wives be ‘submissive’? When the ‘red light’ is so glaringly proclaimed in the ‘This Is What We Believe’ description of a Church, it’s not like these husbands didn’t know what they were getting their wives into.

  21. Come to think of it, Driscoll's new facility (in the photo at the top of the post) resembles a big fish. Imagine the archway over the door as half of the fish's mouth, ready to swallow up those who dare to enter…

  22. Since Mark Driscoll uses Thought Reform to mold people to what he wants,
    get obedience, here is cult expert/psychologist/therapist/author Steve Hassan’s
    on how that works:

    Destructive mind control is not just used by cults. Learn about the Human Trafficking BITE Model and the Terrorism BITE Model

    https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

    The BITE Model
    I. Behavior Control
    II. Information Control
    III. Thought Control
    IV. Emotional Control

  23. @ mirele:

    Good website that you have about Mark Driscoll.

    Let me know if you want to add a list of spiritual abuse books & resources.
    Dr. Ron Enroth’s classic books, available for FREE online, called
    Churches That Abuse and Recovering From Churches That Abuse are good.

    There’s other good books on spiritual abuse too.

    And finally Steve Hassan’s (psychologist-therapist/author/expert on cults) and his work on Thought Reform and Mind Control. Driscoll has and continues to employ these tactics.

  24. Senior Pastor, Head Apostle, Mine Anointed, Prophet, Priest, and King…
    All means the same thing.
    Rule by Divine Right.

  25. Law Prof wrote:

    And, as an added bonus, that guy up there in the pulpit, the one who bragged about broken dead bodies under the church bus, hoping by God’s grace there’d be more, that guy who smirked about breaking the noses of elders who didn’t fall into line, that guy with the Mickey Mouse t-shirt is now actually preaching a “theology” of men waking up to morning oral gratification from the little lady–in the name of God!

    Why do you think I call him B.J.Driscoll?

  26. “The ministry of The Trinity Church is ruled by God, influenced by wise counsel, governed by a board, led by the Senior Pastor, run by staff, carried out by members on mission.”

    The excerpt from The House of Driscoll placed at the top of this post sums up pretty well Driscoll is still the same. His org chart is upside down, he who is greatest is supposed to be the servant. Anyone see any sign of servanthood by Driscoll or staff in the statement above? They are at the top commanding, everyone else is relegated to carrying out orders, members will be the servant of Driscoll and staff.

    What surprises me is he is not even camouflaging it, he put it right out in the open, right at the top of his web sight. Come on people, read the words on your own web site, this isn’t complicated, he will be in charge giving orders, he expects your purpose will be to carry out his “mission”. When you go in for your fitting for manacle and chains will you see then?

  27. mot wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    My hat is off to Seattle’s King 5 for taking the trouble to fly down to AZ in the heat to cover this story. Thank you for not forgetting the tens of thousands of innocent victims. I wonder how long it will be before Phoenix has to do the next story?

    So Mark and Grace are hearing directly from God!

    Just like Joseph Smith
    and Charles Taze Russell
    and Jim Jones
    and Mo David
    and Syun Mung Moon…

  28. Lydia wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    The Jetsons! Throw back!
    It looks like the typical brutal modern architecture that always makes me feel like a drone.

    At least Sixties Googie was whimsical in its modernity.

    Even Albert Speer had more class in his Brutal Monumental.

  29. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Men like Driskle will continue to feast on God’s people, demand salaries and status while they do it, and demand admiration for their “humility” even when they’re caught. They will continue to want the best of all worlds, permanently demanding that others pick up the bill for the consequences of their actions. That’s why the Church needs Wartburg Watches.

    “The world has always been broken. That’s why we need good cops.”
    — Police Chief Bogo, Zootopia

  30. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    mot wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    My hat is off to Seattle’s King 5 for taking the trouble to fly down to AZ in the heat to cover this story. Thank you for not forgetting the tens of thousands of innocent victims. I wonder how long it will be before Phoenix has to do the next story?

    So Mark and Grace are hearing directly from God!

    Just like Joseph Smith
    and Charles Taze Russell
    and Jim Jones
    and Mo David
    and Syun Mung Moon…

    Why do people not run when they hear God has talked directly to someone? Are people that ignorant?

  31. mot wrote:

    Why do people not run when they hear God has talked directly to someone?

    I think this is complicated. We talk about the spirit, I think god can talk to us in the still small voice.

    But I wouldn’t take anyone seriously who tells me ‘god said’ they should be the boss of me. Nope.

  32. mot wrote:

    This has nothing to do with God!! It is all about Driscoll. Why are people so gullible?

    As I’ve written before, they’re gullible because they want to be. The human desire for community and wanting to belong is very powerful and at the heart of it. So much so they’ll throw caution to the wind and rally round’ anybody who promises such.

  33. By the way, what is the likelihood that a man in his mid-forties can change as drastically as Driscoll needs to change?

    I’m no fan of Mark Driscoll, but I respectfully disagree with that statement. I believe a man, or woman, in their mid-forties or older can change IF they’re willing to let Jesus Christ have His way in their lives and IF they’re willing to do the hard, difficult and painful work necessary to play their part in making such a change happen. I’ve seen such change occur in the lives of several men and women I know, but they first had to be willing to change.

    Is Mark Driscoll willing to submit to such a process? I guess we’ll find out soon enough.

  34. @ Lea:
    Lea, when I was in college, I had a gorgeous, sweet, soft-spoken and funny roommate. Half the guys on campus were crazy about her. Well, one guy brought to our house his 5 pound bible and a friend to be his “witness”. He told my roommate that God had told him that she was supposed to marry him. He went on and on and quoted a whole bunch of Bible verses, while we three roommates held our breath in the next room, begging God to keep her from stupidity.

    When he was done with his “proposal,” our roommate said the the sweetest voice possible that she was sure that if this was the word from God, He would tell HER, too. Well, the guy and his “witness” totally lost it and berated her and called her names, as did the “witness” and we all came out and chased them off. We were astounded at her good sense and at the way he didn’t break her peace. It was pretty clear who had the peace of God and who was self-willed and deluded. By their fruits, you will know them.

    She shrugged, and we all busted up laughing and then went back to dinner. (She married Another Guy” and they have had a fruitful and long marriage.)

    A memorable night, and one that gave me a point of reference that has stood me in good stead.

  35. You might as well try to convince P T Barnum and David Hannum to stop putting on circuses because it isn’t right to delude and cheat people.

    Truly, there is a ‘sucker born every minute’ and there’s a lot of money to be made.

    On another note, I had a pastor who insisted God was speaking to him ‘audibly.’ I asked, so you mean someone standing next to you would hear him, too? No, he backpedaled at that.

  36. singleman wrote:

    By the way, what is the likelihood that a man in his mid-forties can change as drastically as Driscoll needs to change?

    I’m no fan of Mark Driscoll, but I respectfully disagree with that statement. I believe a man, or woman, in their mid-forties or older can change IF they’re willing to let Jesus Christ have His way in their lives and IF they’re willing to do the hard, difficult and painful work necessary to play their part in making such a change happen. I’ve seen such change occur in the lives of several men and women I know, but they first had to be willing to change.

    Is Mark Driscoll willing to submit to such a process? I guess we’ll find out soon enough.

    Driscoll has already shown where he’s at with this. His method of dealing with his transgressions was to move on and pretend it didn’t happen. That’s no evidence of change or repentence. At this point, anyone still waiting for ‘evidence’ is a little like the guy standing on the street corner at midnight in the pouring rain saying to himself “if he’s still not here in another hour, he can just borrow the money from someone else.”

    I’ll guess he is going to be a bit more careful about what he says this time. At least until he draws a crowd around himself and it goes to his head. Then, I’d guess, his colors will show.

  37. singleman wrote:

    Is Mark Driscoll willing to submit to such a process? I guess we’ll find out soon enough.

    I agree with the first part of your comment, but I have to point out that we already know Driscoll’s response to submitting to the process. Driscoll is in complete rebellion to the process of submitting as set out by the church in Seattle. He is now in the process of deceiving an entirely new group of people into believing that he has been sent by God to Arizona. He is now “despicable Driscoll.”

  38. Muff Potter wrote:

    mot wrote:

    This has nothing to do with God!! It is all about Driscoll. Why are people so gullible?

    As I’ve written before, they’re gullible because they want to be. The human desire for community and wanting to belong is very powerful and at the heart of it. So much so they’ll throw caution to the wind and rally round’ anybody who promises such.

    Some of it is just laziness, too. Go to church, be entertained with a show, be seen, be in a tribe, check box.

  39. Here is the link to some of the former pastors/elders at Mars Hill Church in Seattle who finally repented for the harm they inflicted to Paul Petry (pastor/elder/attorney/godly man fired from his job & excommunicated for opposing Driscoll’s un-Biblical consolidation of power). The repentant pastors/elders apologized for the sins/harms they caused to so many at Mars Hill.

    http://repentantpastor.com/

    Mark Driscoll has never repented, never made amends, to all of the people he abused and harmed.

    Perhaps Mirele should put the repenant pastor link on her website too.

  40. Coincidental to this thread, here is the net-net from a podcast I listen to (the speaker has, I am sure, never heard of Mark Driscoll or any of the other mega(lomaniac)s):

    What was Judas’ besetting sin? The love of money.
    What was the result of this unrepented sin? The betrayal of Christ.

  41. singleman wrote:

    Is Mark Driscoll willing to submit to such a process? I guess we’ll find out soon enough.

    I agree people can change but I don’t think we need to wait around to make a call on whether Driscoll has changed. A change would be indicated by a willingness to stay out of the limelight and out of the pulpit.

  42. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    singleman wrote:
    Is Mark Driscoll willing to submit to such a process? I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
    I agree people can change but I don’t think we need to wait around to make a call on whether Driscoll has changed. A change would be indicated by a willingness to stay out of the limelight and out of the pulpit.

    And repent for the damage, abuse, lies, excommunications, shunnings that Mark Driscoll did to Mars Hill elders/pastors, staff, and church members.

    Mark Driscoll claims that he needs to forgive them for what they did to him. Ummmm, no.
    He’s in the wrong, not them.

  43. Lea wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    And what about Jimmy being abusive to his wife Karen earlier in their marriage and the fact that she almost didn’t marry him because just days before their white wedding he was being “immoral” with another woman? No matter.
    —-
    Lea said:
    Woah! That’s the guy who gave the marriage sermon I totally didn’t want to hear on valentines day at gateway! He said he was a bad husband early on but didn’t get terribly specific about it.

    Jimmy Evans has a weekly TV show on TBN.

    The fact that he used to abuse his wife is something he uses as a bit of a bragging point to show off how great he and his wife are at marriage now.

    Evans and his wife appear to hold a complementarian view of marriage.

    Evans also holds some wrong ideas about singleness, or he makes stupid points about marriage that end up short-changing singleness and singles. For example.

    He’s made comments in the past on his show that he clearly did not think through first –
    Such as – he teaches it’s necessary for you to have a marriage partner to complete whatever plans God has for you in your life.

    Evans teaches that a man alone has one-half brain, a woman alone has one-half brain, and it takes the two being married to make a complete brain / complete person.

    So, if you follow that Evans logic through, it means that widows, the divorced, and the never-married adults don’t have complete minds, and they are in-complete.

    And singles can’t meet whatever dreams, destinies, or goals has put in their lives.

  44. mirele wrote:

    MD explained how the first time he heard from God, God had spoken to him directly and clearly while in college, at a men’s retreat, and told Mark that he was to become a preacher who would teach and lead men and plant churches all over. ….

    Later he claimed that he and Grace received more specific instructions from God

    He thinks he heard from God? I’d say he was either hearing from Satan or his own ego.

    Comment by GWInsida:

    MD explained how the first time he heard from God, God had spoken to him directly and clearly while in college, at a men’s retreat, and told Mark that he was to become a preacher who would teach and lead men and plant churches all over.

    No concern for women, only wanted to reach men.

    I guess the only preaching Driscoll wanted to give to women was to instruct them to provide certain sex acts to their husbands.

  45. Don’t feel sorry for these folks.They deserve everything they get.Remember this,there is not now or has there ever been a cure for stupid.

  46. @ Bill:
    I do feel sorry for some of them though Bill, some will be needy people who are looking for a strong Pastor to help lead them, & will be easily fooled here. Sometimes it’s not stupidity, it’s need or weakness, or many other things which don’t rule them out as valuable humans.

  47. Daisy wrote:

    Evans teaches that a man alone has one-half brain, a woman alone has one-half brain, and it takes the two being married to make a complete brain / complete person.

    Okaaaaay. Since I have been married, widowed, and than married again, would I have one and a half brains?

  48. @ Beakerj:
    The most important thing we can do is encourage them to value themselves. The charlatans/narcissists and sociopaths target those “needs”
    ….whatever they are.

  49. BTW, who’s the Senior Pastor at TWW? There has to be somebody to cast the vision, and to provide covering and protection for the rest of us.

  50. Beakerj wrote:

    @ Bill:
    I do feel sorry for some of them though Bill, some will be needy people who are looking for a strong Pastor to help lead them, & will be easily fooled here. Sometimes it’s not stupidity, it’s need or weakness, or many other things which don’t rule them out as valuable humans.

    Ken Blue, a pastor who wrote Healing Spiritual Abuse, noted that many people (not all) are set up for abusive churches by having had abusive childhoods. He and other counselors saw this common denominator in many cases of people who had been spiritually abused in churches. Those church members didn’t have a clue what healthy relationships are supposed to look like.

    Driscoll has tried to advertise his church to vulnerable people, including those who have endured horrific abuse. They may be easy prey.

  51. From TTC website:
    “Once the church is established, a class and process for spiritual church membership will be offered.”
    Ruh-roh!

  52. When I saw the post subtitle, my mild dyslexia kicked in. What I saw? “Meet the new bus, same as the old bus.” As in, the bus people got thrown under during the old regime. Then I looked again. I think I liked it better the way I first saw it. 🙂

  53. Velour wrote:

    Driscoll has tried to advertise his church to vulnerable people, including those who have endured horrific abuse. They may be easy prey.

    MD’s self portrait at TTC website:
    “With a skillful mix of bold presentation, accessible teaching, and unrelenting compassion for those who are hurting the most—particularly women who are victims of sexual and physical abuse and assault—Pastor Mark has taken biblical Christianity into cultural corners rarely explored by evangelicals. “

    Is he baiting the most vulnerable?

  54. I am wondering if any women going to Trinity read “Real Marriage”? Would they even question his bit about sodomy?

  55. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Driscoll has tried to advertise his church to vulnerable people, including those who have endured horrific abuse. They may be easy prey.
    MD’s self portrait at TTC website:
    “With a skillful mix of bold presentation, accessible teaching, and unrelenting compassion for those who are hurting the most—particularly women who are victims of sexual and physical abuse and assault—Pastor Mark has taken biblical Christianity into cultural corners rarely explored by evangelicals. “
    Is he baiting the most vulnerable?

    Yes, he is. I’d heard about it. I didn’t realize that he’d put it on the website.

    It’s like what Gavin de Becker wrote in the Gift of Fear: “People who can’t take ‘no’, choose people who can’t say, ‘no’.”

  56. Concerning the OP…

    Isn’t Robert Morris part of the NAR (New Apostilic Reformation) crowd? The idea of MD being unchanged in character and attitude and then having NAR folded into his world view is just plain frightening. This is a very bad mix. If this has become part of MD’s theological framework, look for the abusive patterns to be amplified. God have mercy on those who fall into his orbit…

  57. Nancy2 wrote:

    MD’s self portrait at TTC website:
    “With a skillful mix of bold presentation, accessible teaching, and unrelenting compassion for those who are hurting the most—particularly women who are victims of sexual and physical abuse and assault—Pastor Mark has taken biblical Christianity into cultural corners rarely explored by evangelicals. “

    Gag! Deceptive Sriscoll

  58. StillWiggling wrote:

    When I saw the post subtitle, my mild dyslexia kicked in. What I saw? “Meet the new bus, same as the old bus.” As in, the bus people got thrown under during the old regime. Then I looked again. I think I liked it better the way I first saw it.

    One time after reading a post here about some nasty abuse and egregiously ugly church discipline and whatnot, I read the line under ‘Leave a Reply’ as “Your email address will not be punished.” I took a break after that 😉

  59. Velour wrote:

    Let me know if you want to add a list of spiritual abuse books & resources.

    I wss thinking today that I probably need to put up such a list since Driscoll’s now fully in business. 🙁

  60. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Driscoll has tried to advertise his church to vulnerable people, including those who have endured horrific abuse. They may be easy prey.
    MD’s self portrait at TTC website:
    “With a skillful mix of bold presentation, accessible teaching, and unrelenting compassion for those who are hurting the most—particularly women who are victims of sexual and physical abuse and assault—Pastor Mark has taken biblical Christianity into cultural corners rarely explored by evangelicals. “
    Is he baiting the most vulnerable?

    Driscoll promoted sodomy. And I fully believe Grace has been a perpetually abused woman emotionally and verbally. He blamed her publicly for his behavior clamping it is love and even outed her sexual history in his book.

  61. Velour wrote:

    Driscoll has tried to advertise his church to vulnerable people, including those who have endured horrific abuse. They may be easy prey.

    This endeavor of Driscoll is a con job. He will find followers. He likes to lounge around his pool? He’s also got quite the sound & light setup. We all can surmise where the funding comes from. There is no justice to any of this. I think this is one the biggest strikes against religion in general. Once the mandate from heaven is perceived, all cards are off the table. Given the knowledge that is out there regarding this guy, I find empathy hard to come by. As mirele so eloquently said “not my circus, not my monkeys”. However by keeping the pressure on, it will be harder for the con to be made & maybe someone will be dissuaded. Driscoll is like a chronic illness, you can only try to keep it in check.

  62. roebuck wrote:

    Why are people so gullible?

    maybe it’s not just ‘gullibility’

    even in politics, certain ‘leaders’ pander to their followers in ways that reinforce the prejudices of those followers;
    and followers will tend to seek out those leaders who do this for them, who ‘okay’ their ‘less than better natures’

    so you get the crowd that mistreats women and the crowd that mistreats children and it’s all ‘sanctioned’ by the ones who say it’s God’s way

    and in politics, same scene: people support them what feeds their own needs and frustrations, even though it can mean that the leaders they follow will take advantage of the power given from the populace to benefit themselves and their cronies

    maybe it’s something dark in our human nature that turns us towards these ‘leaders’, often to our own peril and often to harm for our families . . . we are ‘told’ by an ‘authority’ it’s okay to hate certain groups and blame them, to shun and despise, and not to reach out to those who are ‘different’

    and because we give these creeps the ‘authority’, we then can hide behind them and say, we were just followers

    I would say this is infinitely darker than ‘gullibility’.

    Then on the other hand, there was my beloved godmother Eleanor who gave money to all the televangelists out of love for their work. She couldn’t see the ‘bad’ and the ‘greed’ because she didn’t have it in her to look for that, she was that innocent a person. So yes, the gullible are out there. And thank God of TWW and the work of the Deebs, which may shield some of these saints from predatory activity;
    and may offer a ‘home’ base to those who have survived a brutal and abusive experiences at the hands of the wolves who serve the dark lord.

  63. Lydia wrote:

    Driscoll promoted sodomy. And I fully believe Grace has been a perpetually abused woman emotionally and verbally. He blamed her publicly for his behavior clamping it is love and even outed her sexual history in his book.

    And THIS creep is the person that some people will choose to guide them ‘spiritually’? Oh boy.
    If he couldn’t be trusted to honor his own wife publicly and before his own children,
    how can he trusted with the families of those who come to him for ‘leadership’? Leadership into WHAT??

  64. Jack wrote:

    This endeavor of Driscoll is a con job. He will find followers. He likes to lounge around his pool? He’s also got quite the sound & light setup. We all can surmise where the funding comes from.

    You mean the $2 million unaccounted for from Mars Hill?

  65. mirele wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Let me know if you want to add a list of spiritual abuse books & resources.
    I wss thinking today that I probably need to put up such a list since Driscoll’s now fully in business.

    OK, I’d be happy to help in this if you wish.

    Maybe others can add any helpful resources to the list of books/blogs, etc.

  66. Nancy2 wrote:

    MD’s self portrait at TTC website:

    “With a skillful mix of bold presentation, accessible teaching, and unrelenting compassion for those who are hurting the most—particularly women who are victims of sexual and physical abuse and assault—Pastor Mark has taken biblical Christianity into cultural corners rarely explored by evangelicals. “

    The only denser self-praise I have ever read came from the Net Presence/Brand of a fifty-something fanboy who literally lives in his mother’s basement.

  67. Nancy2 wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Evans teaches that a man alone has one-half brain, a woman alone has one-half brain, and it takes the two being married to make a complete brain / complete person.

    Okaaaaay. Since I have been married, widowed, and than married again, would I have one and a half brains?

    Until the Zombie Apocalypse…

  68. Prayer request: Please pray for Tim Fall’s father who is 92 years old, had a fall and a head injury recently, and underwent surgery.

    Tim Fall is at the hospital right now seeing his father who is in Intensive Care.

    Please pray for their family.

    Thank you.

  69. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You mean the $2 million unaccounted for from Mars Hill?

    We’ll probably never know. And until the laws for non-profits are revamped so that grifters can no longer hide behind religious exemption clauses, business will continue as usual.

  70. mirele wrote:

    MD explained how the first time he heard from God, God had spoken to him directly and clearly while in college, at a men’s retreat, and told Mark that he was to become a preacher who would teach and lead men and plant churches all over.

    Oops, he left out the word “astray” after “lead men”…

  71. Bridget wrote:

    Sriscoll

    My dyslexia strikes again! I initially saw this as “$riscoll.” Quite appropriate, don’t y’all think? ::very big grin::

  72. PaJo wrote:

    When he was done with his “proposal,” our roommate said the the sweetest voice possible that she was sure that if this was the word from God, He would tell HER, too.

    Ha. So smart.

  73. I can’t wait to read Driscoll’s next book! /sarcasm/

    Seriously, I’m patiently waiting to find out Mark has written a new book. There’s no way he’s simply happy with being back in the pulpit.

  74. Unepetiteanana wrote:

    I’m patiently waiting to find out Mark has written a new book. There’s no way he’s simply happy with being back in the pulpit.

    Shall we open the betting on who he’s going to steal the next one from?

  75. StillWiggling wrote:

    When I saw the post subtitle, my mild dyslexia kicked in. What I saw? “Meet the new bus, same as the old bus.” As in, the bus people got thrown under during the old regime. Then I looked again. I think I liked it better the way I first saw it.

    I have to admit, I did chuckle at your comment, but I continue to be heartbroken for those who were run over by the Mars Hill bus.  Dee and I have not forgotten them.

  76. Jack wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Driscoll has tried to advertise his church to vulnerable people, including those who have endured horrific abuse. They may be easy prey.
    This endeavor of Driscoll is a con job. He will find followers. He likes to lounge around his pool? He’s also got quite the sound & light setup. We all can surmise where the funding comes from. There is no justice to any of this. I think this is one the biggest strikes against religion in general. Once the mandate from heaven is perceived, all cards are off the table. Given the knowledge that is out there regarding this guy, I find empathy hard to come by. As mirele so eloquently said “not my circus, not my monkeys”. However by keeping the pressure on, it will be harder for the con to be made & maybe someone will be dissuaded. Driscoll is like a chronic illness, you can only try to keep it in check.

    One of the best medicines is to read the lives of the saints, those who have become in their lifetimes most like Christ. Lounging around pools doesn’t figure much in these biographies, but suffering, picking up the cross, humility, and poverty do. I myself have a lot to learn from those who truly gave themselves to becoming like Christ.

  77. mot wrote:

    Why do people not run when they hear God has talked directly to someone? Are people that ignorant?

    Slight tangent, I know, but I’m with Lea on this: the idea of God talking directly to his people appears to have been pretty normal in new testament times (put another way: it has good biblical support). For that matter, if we’re to be led by the Spirit, and Jesus is going to be with us until the end of the age, it’s only common sense to suppose that He can talk to us in some sense that is meaningful in human terms.

    Of course, there’s a context to this. I loved the wee story PaJo told:

    … when I was in college, I had a gorgeous, sweet, soft-spoken and funny roommate. Half the guys on campus were crazy about her. Well, one guy brought to our house his 5 pound bible and a friend to be his “witness”. He told my roommate that God had told him that she was supposed to marry him… When he was done with his “proposal,” our roommate said the the sweetest voice possible that she was sure that if this was the word from God, He would tell HER, too.

    So no, I don’t run per se when someone says God’s spoken to them, but equally, I’m not going to jump either – certainly until God has spoken to everyone involved. By one means or another, God’s taught me everything I know. But he hasn’t taught me everything he knows.

  78. @ mirele:

    Lydia’s comment immediately following yours gave me an idea. What if you held up a sign next Sunday at Driscoll’s church that says, “Mark Driscoll promotes anal sex.”
    That would be an attention getter!

  79. PaJo wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Lea, when I was in college, I had a gorgeous, sweet, soft-spoken and funny roommate. Half the guys on campus were crazy about her. Well, one guy brought to our house his 5 pound bible and a friend to be his “witness”. He told my roommate that God had told him that she was supposed to marry him.

    JMJ/Christian Monist reported a similar shtick back when he was mixed up in the Navigators. You see, the atmosphere there was so rarefied Spiritual & Ascetic that you couldn’t just ask a Nav girl out — that was Fleshly, and drew rebukes. (Apparently Navs were supposed to be asexual.) So, the only way to score with a Nav girl was to con and high-pressure her with “God Hath Revealed Unto Me that You Are To Become My Wife” and any hesitation was Rebellion against What God Hath Said.

    According to Christian Monist, several of these “Thus Saith the LORD” marriages blew up years later, usually with some form of “Satan Hath Entered Into My Wife” and a nasty divorce (with most of the nastiness going from female-to-male).

    I was reminded of something I heard long ago from a Wiccan about why she refused to do Love Spells or Love Potions (yes, a Witch with professional ethics; deal with it):

    “Because those Workings manipulate the will at a deep emotional level — you are forcing them to fall in love with someone they normally wouldn’t. And that requires a lot of energy to keep it going, and that won’t last forever. It’s going to wear out sometime. And when it does, you’ll get an opposite reaction, from magickally-forced Love to Resentment and Hatred.”

    Stripped of the Magickal terminology, this is what was happening in those Nav marriages, except the manipulation was through “Thus Saith the LORD” rather than a Wiccan spell working. (In the words of another blogger, “Christianese Witchcraft”.) But the result and reaction was the same.

  80. Unepetiteanana wrote:

    I can’t wait to read Driscoll’s next book! /sarcasm/

    Seriously, I’m patiently waiting to find out Mark has written a new book. There’s no way he’s simply happy with being back in the pulpit.

    With that unaccounted-for $2 million, he could juice ten books onto the NYT best-seller list. (Or one book for ten weeks?)

  81. mot wrote:

    So Mark and Grace are hearing directly from God!

    Mark + Grace…. Mace?

    Take a Narcissistic Personality Disorder, feed them the idea that it’s legitimate for them to directly “hear from God” and you have the recipe for one disaster after another.

  82. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    A change would be indicated by a willingness to stay out of the limelight and out of the pulpit.

    Definitely. Is there a there there for Driscoll without an audience? I doubt it.

  83. mot wrote:

    Why do people not run when they hear God has talked directly to someone? Are people that ignorant?

    This is just one reason, but: if he can hear directly from God and God tells him exactly what he wants to hear, then that means they can hear exactly what they want to from God, too.

    This is only one subset of the people but… the heart is deceitful and our motives are often complicated.

  84. mirele is an encouragement. I am still very angry at MD and I did not even go through what others had. Of course, it was over his apparent using of people, what appeared to be unscrupulous leadership / fundraising tactics, belittling of women and people who disagreed with him and the way he treated those two elders who were trying to be his real friends. That is awful but why I am really very angry at him is he was given a chance made in heaven to come clean and really cause a moving of the Spirit by his example. He could have reached out and asked forgiveness, stayed under the discipline of his leadership and truly repented. Just imagine the gold that would have come from such actions by someone so public. In my opinion, he squandered that gift for expediency. That is why I am angry, I am a bit ashamed of this anger because some of it is directed at me because I have also squandered some of the gifts God has given me.

    mirele thanks for standing on the wall, metaphorically, 🙂 for many there, that is shining much brighter than anything going on inside the franchise.

  85. Deb wrote:

    I continue to be heartbroken for those who were run over by the Mars Hill bus. Dee and I have not forgotten them.

    Oh, me too, me too. I had nothing whatsoever to do with Mars Hill or $riscoll, but on behalf of those who were hurt, and those who are still drinking the Kool-aid, God help them (literally) I say thank you.

  86. I think that a lot of Christians hear the still small voice of God at sometime or the other. Or it may be just the gentle nudging and prodding of the Holy Spirit to do something thing. But to blatantly tell people that “God said to do this and this, and not have it confirmed by others, to me is just wrong. It would seem he should have told his board of whatever they are, to pray about him with this and to make sure God is telling them the same thing. I’ve seen that happen before. If someone came to me and said God said this or that to them, then I would have to confirm it in my heart to be real or not. I think so many people want for God to tell them something, and instead of waiting on him, they make up the talk and tell it to others and exaggerate as it gets told.

  87. Any inclination I might have to give Driscoll a second chance is undercut by the avalanche of bull-spit that keeps spilling out of his mouth. “The Lord spoke to me,” yeah, I’ll bet. “A trap has been laid.” I mean, if he just repented and made restitution, it would be different.

  88. mirele wrote:

    For a little background on MD’s whole mentor/oversight philosophy, back in 2013, Mark Driscoll wrote/preached/taught that he had never once had a pastor or mentor over him or speaking into his life since he was in college, which means the whole of his preaching caree

    Huh. That’s not what I heard. It was somewhat common knowledge, back around 2007-9ish, around the Portland area that he was mentored at least semi-regularly by Gerry Breshears (Western Seminary). Some local neo-cal fanboys I know we’re also being mentored by Gerry.

    I’ve actually been wondering about Dr. Breshears for awhile now, based on the young, local pastors he was mentoring back in the day, and how their churches imploded.

  89. Daisy wrote:

    This was on Gospel Coalition’s site and has received a lot of commentary around the internet today:

    When God Sends Your White Daughter a Black Husband
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/when-god-sends-your-white-daughter-a-black-husband

    I read that thing and realized my father had made it clear way back in 1968 how he felt about interracial marriage when he took us kids over to meet his secretary (white) and her husband (black). In 1968. Not 2016. *facepalm*

  90. mirele wrote:

    I read that thing and realized my father had made it clear way back in 1968 how he felt about interracial marriage when he took us kids over to meet his secretary (white) and her husband (black). In 1968. Not 2016. *facepalm*

    The Gospel Coalition Folk make me sick with their religious nonsense.

  91. brian wrote:

    I am a bit ashamed of this anger because some of it is directed at me because I have also squandered some of the gifts God has given me.

    It's not too late to put them to work for the kingdom. 😉

    I have always wanted to write. I majored in English in college and for the longest time (decades) I desired to write a book. Have I ever done it? NO! But here I am writing and writing on this blog, and I believe this is what God would have me do during this season.  Maybe books will come later, who knows???

    Is there anything we can do to help you use your gifts?

  92. mot wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    mot wrote:
    mirele wrote:
    My hat is off to Seattle’s King 5 for taking the trouble to fly down to AZ in the heat to cover this story. Thank you for not forgetting the tens of thousands of innocent victims. I wonder how long it will be before Phoenix has to do the next story?
    So Mark and Grace are hearing directly from God!
    Just like Joseph Smith
    and Charles Taze Russell
    and Jim Jones
    and Mo David
    and Syun Mung Moon…
    Why do people not run when they hear God has talked directly to someone? Are people that ignorant?

    Unfortunately, yes.

    J.M.

  93. I think I have seen that “Jonah” banner in front of the IFB church near my work…..is that a “packaged” series of sermons?

    J.M.

  94. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    PaJo wrote:

    @ Lea:
    Lea, when I was in college, I had a gorgeous, sweet, soft-spoken and funny roommate. Half the guys on campus were crazy about her. Well, one guy brought to our house his 5 pound bible and a friend to be his “witness”. He told my roommate that God had told him that she was supposed to marry him.

    JMJ/Christian Monist reported a similar shtick back when he was mixed up in the Navigators. You see, the atmosphere there was so rarefied Spiritual & Ascetic that you couldn’t just ask a Nav girl out — that was Fleshly, and drew rebukes. (Apparently Navs were supposed to be asexual.) So, the only way to score with a Nav girl was to con and high-pressure her with “God Hath Revealed Unto Me that You Are To Become My Wife” and any hesitation was Rebellion against What God Hath Said.

    According to Christian Monist, several of these “Thus Saith the LORD” marriages blew up years later, usually with some form of “Satan Hath Entered Into My Wife” and a nasty divorce (with most of the nastiness going from female-to-male).

    I was reminded of something I heard long ago from a Wiccan about why she refused to do Love Spells or Love Potions (yes, a Witch with professional ethics; deal with it):

    “Because those Workings manipulate the will at a deep emotional level — you are forcing them to fall in love with someone they normally wouldn’t. And that requires a lot of energy to keep it going, and that won’t last forever. It’s going to wear out sometime. And when it does, you’ll get an opposite reaction, from magickally-forced Love to Resentment and Hatred.”

    Stripped of the Magickal terminology, this is what was happening in those Nav marriages, except the manipulation was through “Thus Saith the LORD” rather than a Wiccan spell working. (In the words of another blogger, “Christianese Witchcraft”.) But the result and reaction was the same.

    The gospel according to Loony Tunes and Wiccan? How about “Beloved believe not every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they are of God……..I John

  95. I lasted a year in the Navigators when I was overseas in the military before being kicked out (we called it receiving the left foot of fellowship) in 1978. Interestingly, all of the Nav reps were married to women they had met at their Colorado Springs training center where they were not allowed to date. A popular joke was this: What is the difference between a Navigator girl and a trash can? One gets taken out once a week.

    Navigators, at least in the local expression where I was located, were my first experience with heavy-handed authoritarian leadership. Unfortunately, not my last. Frankly, now I feel honored that they considered me a threat important enough to excise from their fellowship.

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    JMJ/Christian Monist reported a similar shtick back when he was mixed up in the Navigators. You see, the atmosphere there was so rarefied Spiritual & Ascetic that you couldn’t just ask a Nav girl out — that was Fleshly, and drew rebukes. (Apparently Navs were supposed to be asexual.) So, the only way to score with a Nav girl was to con and high-pressure her with “God Hath Revealed Unto Me that You Are To Become My Wife” and any hesitation was Rebellion against What God Hath Said.

  96. Judas Maccabeus wrote:

    I think I have seen that “Jonah” banner in front of the IFB church near my work…..is that a “packaged” series of sermons?
    J.M.

    Most likely. Little of what comes from Driscoll is original. Books were plagiarized and he used to be the lead spokesman for Docent – a company that basically writes sermons for pastors.

    Listen to the audio on my blog below to hear Driscoll and Matt Chandler endorse Docent. Chandler’s endorsement is particularly revealing. He states he used to have reservations about using Docent because it felt like he was cheating and being lazy. He was right!

    https://thouarttheman.org/2014/03/11/docent-group-should-dump-driscoll-and-hire-mahaney/

  97. @ Persephone:
    Oh yes. And let us not forget Nicholson (?) who started Acts 29.

    Driscoll is a fraud. People believe him because he is such a bold liar. The SBC Neo Cal leaders thought he was great. Now they pretend none of it happened.

  98. @ Daisy:
    That is how they roll. Assume everyone is a racist but them and they “now” have an enlightened view.

    Strange as they are so unenlightened concerning molested children and the subjugation of women.

    Where have they been? Besides, there is only ONE race. Humans.

  99. Judas Maccabeus wrote:

    I think I have seen that “Jonah” banner in front of the IFB church near my work…..is that a “packaged” series of sermons?

    J.M.

    It reminds me of the promos for the Jonah play they had going in Branson for a while 🙂

  100. @ Daisy:

    The problem is that churches are replacing their historical doctrine and identity with a website that uses clickbait.

  101. Lydia wrote:

    That is how they roll. Assume everyone is a racist but them and they “now” have an enlightened view.

    Strange as they are so unenlightened concerning molested children and the subjugation of women.

    Where have they been? Besides, there is only ONE race. Humans.

    Did you notice how Dave Miller and several others at Pravda tried to use the church in Sterling Baptist church in Alabama as an example of racism in the SBC? They did not have all of the facts about the situation, but that did not stop them.

  102. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    Navigators, at least in the local expression where I was located, were my first experience with heavy-handed authoritarian leadership. Unfortunately, not my last. Frankly, now I feel honored that they considered me a threat important enough to excise from their fellowship.

    I too feel honored that my iota of critical thinking skills were such a threat to my former pastors/elders that I was “keyed out” (Gram3’s TM for excommunication and shunning) of my church of 8-years. And before me a doctor in his 70’s. And before him a C.P.A.
    And a flood of people left.

  103. @ mot:
    They desperately need an example to change the convo from Neo Calvinism to fighters against racism. What they did not count on is very few believed 30 year old hot headed Neo Cal pastors anymore. It is already starting to look like he needed a reason for his firing that made him look like a hero.

    Just because the big cheeses like Moore and Mohler are trying to change the conversation and deflect from the last 10 years of tyranny doesn’t mean the old conversation did not happen.

  104. @ mot:
    Typical Miller. He was so angry that some of his regular commenters and fans were questioning his assertions, he took his marbles and left the thread because, as he announced, he was too angry to go on. Welcome to the world of Neo Cal pastors.

  105. Stan wrote:

    @ Daisy:

    The problem is that churches are replacing their historical doctrine and identity with a website that uses clickbait.

    That is it!

  106. Lydia wrote:

    They desperately need an example to change the convo from Neo Calvinism to fighters against racism. What they did not count on is very few believed 30 year old hot headed Neo Cal pastors anymore. It is already starting to look like he needed a reason for his firing that made him look like a hero.

    Sadly some including mostly Miller tried to make a hero of this guy as you correctly point out. Anyone that tried to challenge the scenario was accused of being soft on racism.

  107. mot wrote:

    Sadly some including mostly Miller tried to make a hero of this guy as you correctly point out. Anyone that tried to challenge the scenario was accused of being soft on racism.

    That is the meme…. everywhere. Why not value individual humans no matter the gender or where they come from? God did not create subsets of the human species. Miller does not think we are capable of valuing individuals.

    My guess is Sunday mornings are more segregated than ever because too many churches are limiting in who can function in the Body. In many churches you have to be vetted by the elders as a proper Christian to run the sound equipment.

  108. @ mot:
    He has proclaimed Calvin in the past and written apologetics for ESS. But I do think if Al Mohler ditched Calvinism the rest of them would too. I just think what we are seeing is an effort to change the conversation whether it is Pravda or TGC. They know they have to do something as they are bleeding money and followers.

    Not that long ago one of the most rabid blogger Neo calvinist pastors announced he had become an atheist. He came back to Pravda and argued with them for a while but I have not seen him around lately.

  109. Lydia wrote:

    He has proclaimed Calvin in the past and written apologetics for ESS. But I do think if Al Mohler ditched Calvinism the rest of them would too. I just think what we are seeing is an effort to change the conversation whether it is Pravda or TGC. They know they have to do something as they are bleeding money and followers

    Sadly it is all about money for these guys.

  110. Lydia wrote:

    Not that long ago one of the most rabid blogger Neo calvinist pastors announced he had become an atheist. He came back to Pravda and argued with them for a while but I have not seen him around lately.

    Yet another example of pendulum extremes? There’s a radio personality out here in Southern Cal. who brags about how he was a full-on new age practitioner before he got ‘saved’. Now he’s ‘on fire for the Lord’ and assures his listeners that they must be too, and if not? Well then…(insert your favorite clobber verse)

  111. @ Muff Potter:
    There is a lot to be said for moderation, balance and avoiding rabid movements. But there will always be tyrants. I hesitate to repeat what Thomas Jefferson said about them because I think in this day and time it is more productive to laugh at them and point to the bill of rights

  112. @ Daisy:

    I read the article and thought about it, and I see why it got the response it did.

    It seems like I’m just a little older than the young couple. Very few people in our generation are going to see interracial marriage as bad or forbidden. However, races remain in distinctive cultures and communities. Bridging this gap must have been a challenge, and I’d be interested in how this couple encountered and overcame these challenges beyond reading Bible verses. However, what we get instead, is the mother seeing allowing her daughter to marry a black man as participating in John Piper’s ascetic theology, like accepting domestic abuse or refusing to defend yourself in a robbery, and congratulating herself for doing it.

  113. Stan wrote:

    However, what we get instead, is the mother seeing allowing her daughter to marry a black man as participating in John Piper’s ascetic theology, like accepting domestic abuse or refusing to defend yourself in a robbery, and congratulating herself for doing it.

    That is what I get from it as well. Why is it even an article??

  114. Lydia wrote:

    Not that long ago one of the most rabid blogger Neo calvinist pastors announced he had become an atheist. He came back to Pravda and argued with them for a while but I have not seen him around lately.

    Have thought for years that some of the rabid neocals were not Christians, but rather movement followers, seekers of Great Men to follow; knowing a lot about the Bible and church history and the lives of church fathers, memorizing scripture and being the type who will staunchly defend a set of doctrines and all the “right Christian positions” such as pro-life and pro-family doesn’t make you a Christian.

    What one must look for are the fruits of that professed faith, and while some allowances must be made for the general stupidity of young men and misguided first passions, if you’re around one who claims your faith but doesn’t have love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc., you’re probably not around a Christian.

  115. Stan wrote:

    However, what we get instead, is the mother seeing allowing her daughter to marry a black man as participating in John Piper’s ascetic theology, like accepting domestic abuse or refusing to defend yourself in a robbery, and congratulating herself for doing it.

    So Miscegenation (finally got to use that word) is a SIN like Domestic Abuse?
    (flutter flutter flutter hands…)

  116. Lydia wrote:

    Not that long ago one of the most rabid blogger Neo calvinist pastors announced he had become an atheist.

    Communism begets Objectivism.
    Total Opposite, Equally Fanatical.

  117. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    Navigators, at least in the local expression where I was located, were my first experience with heavy-handed authoritarian leadership. Unfortunately, not my last. Frankly, now I feel honored that they considered me a threat important enough to excise from their fellowship.

    When I was at Cal Poly Pomona in the late Seventies (and sort-of-associated with Campus Crusade), we also had the Navs on campus. They had the reputation for more burnouts and flunkouts than any other Christian group.

  118. Quick off-topic update and continued prayer request for Tim Fall’s 92 year old father.
    https://timfall.wordpress.com/2016/08/10/update-2-on-prayer-needs-for-my-father/

    Tim Fall appreciates everyone’s prayers for his 92-year old father who sustained
    a head injury recently in a fall, underwent surgery at the hospital and has
    been in the hospital’s Intensive Care Unit.

    Tim’s father will require speech therapy, physical therapy and occupational therapy.
    His apartment will have to be packed up and the plan is for him to move into an assisted living facility near Tim.

    His father’s home is about 85 minutes away from Tim and Tim is under a great weight.

    Please pray.

    Thank you friends.

  119. Judas Maccabeus wrote:

    I think I have seen that “Jonah” banner in front of the IFB church near my work…..is that a “packaged” series of sermons?

    Probably not directly. I did a Google search for the words: Jonah fishy tale faithful God and didn’t find a similar sermon series. (I *did* however find a Twitter account that had a picture of a small poster for Driscoll’s sermon series.) That said, there was a Jonah sermon series at Mars Hill in Seattle, but it looks like it was preached by the campus pastors when Driscoll was away on vacation in the summer of 2008.

    Hmmm.

    And just so you can be confirmed that my tinfoil hat is a bit too tight around my cranium, I’d only point out that Driscoll’s last sermon series at Mars Hill was on 1 John. His first “Bible study” in Scottsdale before the church launch was on 1 John. Why, you might think that he just took up from where he left off…

  120. Nancy2 wrote:

    From TTC website:
    “Once the church is established, a class and process for spiritual church membership will be offered.”
    Ruh-roh!

    “Spiritual church membership.” I read this yesterday, and it still sticks out. What other kind of church membership is there? Is this a common expression, code, something else?

  121. There were a lot of empty seats in that auditorium. I sincerely hopes that it stays that way for the sake of the neighborhood I grew up in. I think that repentantpastor.com and musingsunderthebus.com would be excellent websites to post up on the protest signs. It was through repentantpastor that I originally learned about the Mark Driscoll controversy.

  122. Law Prof wrote:

    if you’re around one who claims your faith but doesn’t have love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc., you’re probably not around a Christian.

    YES. I would add that humility is also a sign of the presence of grace in someone’s life. The arrogance seen among many ‘leaders’ does not speak well for their souls, no.

  123. Friend wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    From TTC website:
    “Once the church is established, a class and process for spiritual church membership will be offered.”
    Ruh-roh!
    “Spiritual church membership.” I read this yesterday, and it still sticks out. What other kind of church membership is there? Is this a common expression, code, something else?

    Ahh, they’re just putting a new *spin* on the same authoritarianism. Now it’s a “spiritual” (cough) “church membership”.

    I’m a little slow on the draw at times. Having – wince – signed a Church Membership Covenant filled with Scripture verses and having been told by the pastors/elders
    at my ex-NeoCalvinist church that it was “Biblical”. They never told me or anyone else it was just a tool of heavy-Shepherding, authoritarian contro, so they could control our lives at their whims and insinuate themselves in to our lives, telling us to “obey” and to “submit” to them. It was baited like a Venus Flytrap. Baited with Scripture verses to make you think that it’s not lethal. You fly in and the jaws of authoritarianism clamp down on you and set about their work of digesting you. Sheep to the slaughter.

    Hindsight is 20/20: How many pages did Jesus make people sign to follow Him?
    Correct answer: 0 pages. If you’re required to sign anything — RUN! And don’t give them
    ANY money either.

  124. Lydia wrote:

    My guess is Sunday mornings are more segregated than ever because too many churches are limiting in who can function in the Body.

    There are so many causes. Many old church sanctuaries (in the South but also in New York, Massachusetts, and elsewhere) have gallery areas that used to be seating for slaves. The gallery tends to look like overflow seating to churchgoers who are unaware of the history. To some African Americans, though, the gallery is a painful sight.

  125. @ Friend:
    I don’t think there are actual church buildings here that old. There seems to have been a renovation boom from 1880’s to early 1900’s we learned on a historical tour a while back.. I will have to check.

    And I certainly cannot relate on that horrible level but maybe just a tinge when I see exclusive pulpits. The churches we attended in my childhood were much more integrated than I see today. My first SS teacher was AA when I was about 6.

  126. @ Friend:

    I think it’s more about how we worship differently. Music, for one. All those awesome guitar band the neo-cals love? Not super popular in most black churches.

  127. Friend wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    From TTC website:
    “Once the church is established, a class and process for spiritual church membership will be offered.”
    Ruh-roh!
    “Spiritual church membership.” I read this yesterday, and it still sticks out. What other kind of church membership is there? Is this a common expression, code, something else?

    If I recall correctly, Mark Driscoll, Sutton Turner and a guy whose name eludes me changed the structure of Mars Hill a number of years before its collapse, and made it so that only these three were actual “members” of Mars Hill. Which meant they controlled all the money, the financial and business decisions, and so on. The congregants and giving units were thereafter “spiritual members.”

    To me, it sounds like he is setting it up this way from the get-go, and that means he will “own” that business (I can’t bring myself to call it a church) and have sole say over finances and business decisions…and the congregants are “on mission” if they give a bunch of money, and they receive whatever spiritual benefit they can in a fair exchange.

  128. Lea wrote:

    @ Friend:
    I think it’s more about how we worship differently. Music, for one. All those awesome guitar band the neo-cals love? Not super popular in most black churches.

    There are also NeoCal churches that don’t have the bands and do have reverent music.
    I got in to such a NeoCal church, thinking it was so *reverent* as opposed to a mega church that a friend had invited me to. The NeoCal church had about 100 people
    when I started going there. It turned out to be more abusive and toxic than the mega church with authoritarian pastors/elders. And Comp teaching. At least the mega church, to their credit, had women pastors.

  129. Lydia wrote:

    I don’t think there are actual church buildings here that old. There seems to have been a renovation boom from 1880’s to early 1900’s we learned on a historical tour a while back.. I will have to check.

    Here’s an interesting article on the slave gallery at Old North Church in Boston:

    http://oldnorth.com/historic-site/uppergallery/

    And a brief video about St. Augustine’s Episcopal in NYC (image of the gallery around 1:40). This church was founded by white people and is now predominantly African American. The parish both uncovered and embraced the history of the slave gallery:

    http://www.nytimes.com/video/nyregion/thecity/1194817110737/slave-galleries-at-st-augustine-s.html

  130. Lea wrote:

    I think it’s more about how we worship differently. Music, for one. All those awesome guitar band the neo-cals love? Not super popular in most black churches.

    Agreed, it’s a thousand different things. I’m kind of allergic to neo-cal guitar… 😉

  131. PaJo wrote:

    only these three were actual “members” of Mars Hill. Which meant they controlled all the money, the financial and business decisions, and so on. The congregants and giving units were thereafter “spiritual members.”

    That’s horrible!!!!!!

  132. Lydia wrote:

    Not that long ago one of the most rabid blogger Neo calvinist pastors announced he had become an atheist.

    If this is so, I respect his honesty.

    There’s a fine line between legalistic religion and atheism. If you have to specify “God” line by line, then it’s very hard to maintain any real confidence in “God” (especially if “God” doesn’t pay very well).

  133. In sport, I just heard that Nick’s side of The Pond got a Bronze Olympic medal:

    BIG CONGRATS TO MAX WHITLOCK THOUGH…A GREAT RESULT FOR @BritGymnastics ! #Rio2016 #ArtisticGymnastics

  134. PaJo wrote:

    If I recall correctly, Mark Driscoll, Sutton Turner and a guy whose name eludes me changed the structure of Mars Hill a number of years before its collapse, and made it so that only these three were actual “members” of Mars Hill. Which meant they controlled all the money, the financial and business decisions, and so on. The congregants and giving units were thereafter “spiritual members.”

    Amazing.

  135. “Sometimes God will allow us to endure hardship for two reasons: to change who we are and where we are.” (Mark Driscoll)

    To date, Driscoll has not indicated that he is who he should be or where he should be in Christ, as he once again takes on the self-proclaimed, but not God-ordained, title of pastor.

    (P.S., The rumors of my demise from oral surgery on Monday have been greatly exaggerated. I’m drugged with pain meds, but alert enough to continue to send out warnings about the potty-mouth preacher who has set up camp once again. Beware of soothing words, Scottsdale – things are not what they seem. There has been no evidence of Driscoll repenting from past ministry failures before he moved to your city.)

  136. ” … the Lord revealed to me a trap has been set …” (Mark Driscoll re: Mars Hill)

    Driscoll’s entire ministry has been all about trying to ensare others with aberrant theology. From emergent to resurgent to whatever he’s come up with now, Driscoll has a history of luring the gullible with sensational ministry antics to finance his rebellion. If there’s anything God-ordained about Driscoll, it’s His promise that “If you set a trap for others, you will get caught in it yourself” (Proverbs 26:27). Driscoll set a trap for himself at Mars Hill, and when he fell in it, thousands of disillusioned followers tumbled with him. Scottsdale, I hope it works out better for you … but God does not use the unrepentant who have disqualified themselves from ministry. Beware of traps.

  137. https://www.wretchedradio.com/media/al-mohler-12-ways-our-brains-are-busted

    Dee Deb anyone else this seems so well twisted and rather ironic. I think it is the heart of the issue. It is also intellectually based but the so called, elect, do the exact same thing with their “reasoning.” If the fall affected us so profoundly we have done quite well with advances in science and technology etc. What about people with developmental disabilities, mental illness, cognitive functioning affected by injury or disease? I admit trying to watch TF is a bit like volunteering to get water boarded but I find this a key issue not often discussed.

  138. PaJo wrote:

    To me, it sounds like he is setting it up this way from the get-go, and that means he will “own” that business (I can’t bring myself to call it a church) and have sole say over finances and business decisions…and the congregants are “on mission” if they give a bunch of money, and they receive whatever spiritual benefit they can in a fair exchange.

    I’ve read the corporate documents and the only three parties involved in “The Trinity Church, a Corporation,” are the three directors Randall Taylor, Jimmy Evans and Mark Driscoll.

  139. brian wrote:

    What about people with developmental disabilities, mental illness, cognitive functioning affected by injury or disease?

    These people are dear to the heart of Our Lord. I would not worry about their salvation, no. We, as the Body of Christ, entrust these people to the great mercy of God and we do it with confidence.

  140. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I totally agree. In its way, atheism is deterministic, too. It is another form of fatalism within that determinist construct.

    I have a kid taking AP Euro history this year. I was just checking out some of the recommended videos and got a chuckle when this teacher got so many questions on free will, he did a short video explaining it within the construct of the reformation. It is only 4 minutes. You think he got it right?

    https://youtu.be/Xv3Yrs6s0vI

  141. brian wrote:

    the so called, elect, do the exact same thing with their “reasoning.”

    When you think about it, why would God elect the arrogant characters who now occupy some pulpits?! In His foreknowledge about them before the foundation of the world, He surely knew they would become blind leading the blind by reasoning and not revelation! I give God more credit than that.

  142. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    JMJ/Christian Monist reported a similar shtick back when he was mixed up in the Navigators. You see, the atmosphere there was so rarefied Spiritual & Ascetic that you couldn’t just ask a Nav girl out — that was Fleshly, and drew rebukes. (Apparently Navs were supposed to be asexual.) So, the only way to score with a Nav girl was to con and high-pressure her with “God Hath Revealed Unto Me that You Are To Become My Wife” and any hesitation was Rebellion against What God Hath Said.

    By the time I encountered Navigators (of the collegiate variety), in the mid- to late-2000’s, the teaching had shifted a bit. What the campus leader at my university taught about relationships revolved around buzzwords like men “pursuing” Godly women, women running after Jesus with “gazelle intensity” (borrowing relationship advice from Dave Ramsey, apparently), and not “casually dating” without having a “DTR” (“define the relationship”) talk before beginning what I’d call – my words, not theirs – “courtship lite.”

    PaJo wrote:

    I had a gorgeous, sweet, soft-spoken and funny roommate. Half the guys on campus were crazy about her. Well, one guy brought to our house his 5 pound bible and a friend to be his “witness”. He told my roommate that God had told him that she was supposed to marry him.

    Funnily enough, I had something not unlike that (just far less creepy and more sad) happen to me after college. A young woman about my age had become interested in me, and I – being dense to these sorts of things – didn’t pick up on it until she wrote me an impassioned letter in which she poured out her heart, that God had told her that I was the one she was to marry. This is where I’d usually make a joke about God forgetting that he checked the “gay” box when he knit me together, except for the fact that most of the evangelicals I know think that marrying someone of the opposite sex will cure “same-sex attractions.” So, uh, oops, I guess I missed my chance! 😮

  143. mirele wrote:

    PaJo wrote:

    To me, it sounds like he is setting it up this way from the get-go, and that means he will “own” that business (I can’t bring myself to call it a church) and have sole say over finances and business decisions…and the congregants are “on mission” if they give a bunch of money, and they receive whatever spiritual benefit they can in a fair exchange.

    I’ve read the corporate documents and the only three parties involved in “The Trinity Church, a Corporation,” are the three directors Randall Taylor, Jimmy Evans and Mark Driscoll.

    Prophet, Priest, and King?
    Or Prophet/Priest/King/Apostle and two sock puppets?

  144. Max wrote:

    ” … the Lord revealed to me a trap has been set …” (Mark Driscoll re: Mars Hill)

    So Go is sending him something other than Pornovision Loops these days?

    Somewhere in the archives is a comment “”The LORD Led Me’ should be uttered with the same forethought and caution as ‘Please Castrate Me’.”

  145. Max wrote:

    P.S., The rumors of my demise from oral surgery on Monday have been greatly exaggerated. I’m drugged with pain meds, but alert enough to continue to send out warnings about the potty-mouth preacher who has set up camp once again.

    Glad you’re feeling better!

  146. Max wrote:

    I’m drugged with pain meds, but alert enough to continue to send out warnings about the potty-mouth preacher

    They can’t keep you down very long, can they?
    Glad you’re back!

  147. @ Law Prof:

    I agree with you for the most part, but as Christians, we are called to forgive whether someone asks for that forgiveness or not.

    Still, that does not negate the fact that Mark does need to reconcile with the people who he hurt and to do that he needs to repent and ask for that forgiveness.

  148. @ Lydia:
    Had a great oral surgeon (also a Baptist Sunday School teacher, of the good sort). Cut back on the pain meds today and am thinking more clearly now (although that may not be reflected in my blog comments). Stumbled my way to the computer about mid-day to check email and a few blogs. Tuned into TWW and saw another Driscoll piece, so that got my blood stirring again in a therapeutic way. ;^)

    Thanks to all who prayed for me – my recovery is well ahead of the predicted time to be back on my feet and the keyboard. Prayer works!

  149. Max wrote:

    Thanks to all who prayed for me – my recovery is well ahead of the predicted time to be back on my feet and the keyboard. Prayer works!

    Amen, brother Max.

  150. Lydia wrote:

    In many churches you have to be vetted by the elders as a proper Christian to run the sound equipment.

    This is understandable. To use the parlance of a sound engineer, speakers with high signal-to-noise require high filtration. If I were to expand rather than compress their signal-to-error rate it might resonate with the audience and they would find sudden clarity.

    Also, in the presence of an off-pitch master that doesn’t know jack, I find resistance to oscillate up and down emitting ohm, ohm.

  151. Jazzmaster wrote:

    @ Law Prof:

    I agree with you for the most part, but as Christians, we are called to forgive whether someone asks for that forgiveness or not.

    Still, that does not negate the fact that Mark does need to reconcile with the people who he hurt and to do that he needs to repent and ask for that forgiveness.

    We do need to forgive. But we don’t need to trust the offender to be changed/repentant for good, even when the penitent really IS making an effort.

    Not always, but quite often, a truly repentant person will go on to face the consequences of his/her actions…including a career change or time behind bars.

  152. Velour wrote:

    Tim Fall appreciates everyone’s prayers for his 92-year old father

    Thank you Velour for sharing this and thanks to everyone for keeping us in prayer.

    Tim

  153. Jazzmaster wrote:

    we are called to forgive whether someone asks for that forgiveness or not

    But God doesn’t forgive until a person admits, confesses and repents of his sin. Driscoll is launching an unrepentant comeback in his own energy; God doesn’t come alongside rebels who will not repent. He is playing the victim re: his dismissal at Mars Hill. He evidently does not see his long record of ministerial failures, potty-mouth preaching, plagiarism, authoritarian rule, un-Biblical subordination of female believers, etc. etc. as sins to be repented of. I would be more patient with his new ministry if there was evidence of humility and repentance. In my humble (but accurate) opinion, he disqualified himself from ministry considering his resume, particularly in the absence of repentance.

  154. Max wrote:

    Thanks to all who prayed for me – my recovery is well ahead of the predicted time to be back on my feet and the keyboard. Prayer works!

    Great to hear, Max! Good to have you back 🙂

  155. Lydia wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I totally agree. In its way, atheism is deterministic, too. It is another form of fatalism within that determinist construct.

    Another thing they both are is positions of feeling sure that you know the answers.

    I wonder how people have the confidence to be so sure of things, I guess I will always feel that the universe is a whole lot bigger than my comprehension of it could ever be.

  156. Bill M wrote:

    This is understandable. To use the parlance of a sound engineer, speakers with high signal-to-noise require high filtration. If I were to expand rather than compress their signal-to-error rate it might resonate with the audience and they would find sudden clarity.
    Also, in the presence of an off-pitch master that doesn’t know jack, I find resistance to oscillate up and down emitting ohm, ohm.

    Why is there so much feedback on patriarchy these days?

    Because complementarian churches don’t believe in equalization. 😉

  157. Max wrote:

    But God doesn’t forgive until a person admits, confesses and repents of his sin.

    Good point, Max. “If we confess our sins he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”

    As far as our forgiveness, we forgive but does this mean we do not warn the vulnerable of danger? No. Does it mean we fail to speak the truth and call the person to account as long as they are in sin? No. Does it mean we put the person back into a place where they can sin against us (or others) again? No. None of these things are part of forgiveness.

  158. Jazzmaster wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    I agree with you for the most part, but as Christians, we are called to forgive whether someone asks for that forgiveness or not.
    Still, that does not negate the fact that Mark does need to reconcile with the people who he hurt and to do that he needs to repent and ask for that forgiveness.

    It depends on what is meant by forgiveness. In the context of my post to which you replied, it was regarding those who defend Driscoll and believe we must shut up, inform no one of his past, and just hope for the best as they throw money and adulation at him and hoist him back onto the stage where he can do the same sort of damage he did before. And this without any bona fide signs of repentance, but rather minimization (basically, he admits only that mistakes were made) that hardens into angry defensiveness (his recent spitting mad retort to the media that all the allegations against him are baseless lies, or words very much to that effect). That is not a repentant man or we will have to redefine the word. Should he be forgiven and all forgotten,if he simply refuses to repent and doubles down? Will the Lord forgive him if he refuses to repent and doubles down? Are you suggesting we’re called upon to do something that the Lord Himself will not? Again, remember the context and remember what I said, we are not to hate the man or to wish for his destruction. Is that insufficient? And if so, how?

  159. @ Jazzmaster:
    ..and one more thing, we should not rejoice at his fall (which will almost certainly come sooner or later) and we should pray for him (not that it should become a higher priority than prayer for his victims). If we find ourselves engaging in schadenfreude and unable to spit the words out praying for our enemies, that’s a really good sign that our hearts are wrong.

  160. Lydia wrote:

    I was just checking out some of the recommended videos and got a chuckle when this teacher got so many questions on free will, he did a short video explaining it within the construct of the reformation. It is only 4 minutes. You think he got it right?

    I don’t actually know in detail about church history to say whether he got it right; or, rather, I know about some areas of church history better than others. I can say that a) he got it right as far as I know, and b) he looks like Mark Wahlberg. But I was impressed by the lack of heat or polemic in his video, given the extent to which wars have been fought (quite literally) on this very topic.

    Watching his vid, though, something clicked on the whole Protestant vs Roman thing that’s so obvious I don’t know why I haven’t spotted it before. (Maybe it was hiding on my top lip.) I’m talking here about why so many Protestants continue to think the Roman church teaches salvationByWorks when it doesn’t teach this and never has. It’s more than just simply handed-down misinformation. It most likely derives from the fact that the initial trajectory of the reformation was against Rome and therefore, to the degree that Rome didn’t teach the same as the reformers, it must teach the polar opposite. As is demonstrated in blogging and politics the world over, this is invariably how every public debate ends…

  161. mirele wrote:

    I’ve read the corporate documents and the only three parties involved in “The Trinity Church, a Corporation,” are the three directors Randall Taylor, Jimmy Evans and Mark Driscoll.

    I wonder whether messrs Taylor and Evans actually believe they have a stake in this business, and/or that they really are directors. Do they know how Driskle has treated his groups of “co-founders” in the past? Are they ready for this? When it comes to being as innocent as doves but as shrewd as snakes, are they either, or neither, or both? Are they prepared, and politically skilled enough, to stand up to Driskle if and when he decides that they’ve served their purpose and it’s time to break their noses and throw them under the bus? Many survivors of Mars Hill have spoken repeatedly of their love for Mark Driskle. Those whom Jesus loves, He rebukes and disciplines (this from Revelation 3). Do these men truly love Mark Driskle – enough to rebuke and discipline him? Enough to affirm, quickly and publicly, anybody in the business whom he bullies or intimidates, from day 1, so that he cannot create a powerbase with everybody in line behind him and affirming him as the brand?

    Time will tell.

  162. @ Law Prof:
    Or it is a sign we care about victims and you don’t? I am always glad when evil falls. And I think that is a good heart sign. I just wish more could recognize right and wrong.

    What concerns me are Christians more concerned about those who use and hurt people than those who are hurt. I never trust those types. They are dangerous.

  163. Jazzmaster wrote:

    I agree with you for the most part, but as Christians, we are called to forgive whether someone asks for that forgiveness or not.

    You bring up an important point, Master of Jazz, and I must admit to some internal conflict here because so much nonsense is talked about forgiveness in this context that it often drowns out the important and necessary truths surrounding forgiveness.

    I know what you mean (at least, I think so!) but I beg to amend your words slightly thus: as Christians, we are authorised to forgive whether someone asks for that forgiveness or not. Moreover, we are authorised to forgive those who sin against us (I’m reading Matthew 6 here). I have no authority to forgive someone who sins against you, not least because doing so would generally cost me nothing and – thus – mean nothing.

  164. If you’ll humour me for a moment, I need to get this picture out of my head-space so that I can go back and concentrate on the jQuery user interface and, subsequently, the WordPress X theme.

    Point 1 of 2: this is NOT forgiveness

    A typical movie scene: there’s a group of people present. A bully/antagonist aggressively provokes a victim with a gross insult or a physical blow. The VICTIM is IMMEDIATELY set upon and restrained by all present to stop him retaliating. The bully casually walks up to the restrained, helpless victim and further mocks him; meanwhile, the crowd focus their efforts on continuing the restrain the victim to ensure that he cannot take any meaningful action. Nobody acts against the bully.

    Result: the bully triumphs both personally (he helps himself to a piece of the victim for free) and socially (the victim is isolated at the bottom of the social ladder, with everyone effectively teaming up behind the bully and serving him). The victim is doubly humiliated, being stripped of any agency or power to act.

    Point 2 of 2: this IS – metaphorically at least – forgiveness

    Same movie scene. Except this time, the crowd immediately set upon the bully, restrain him and force him into a subservient position where he is isolated and defenceless in front of everyone. They then invite the victim over to take a free swipe if he wants to.

    The victim calmly walks over to the bully, who is now entirely in his (the victim’s) power. But instead of punching the bully, the victim calmly tells the crowd to let the bully go. He forgives the bully, because he can. The social dynamic has shifted fundamentally: nobody respects the bully. He leaves. Or maybe, he acknowledges the victim’s actions himself. The crowd turn to the victim and affirm their respect for him.

    Point 3 of 2: why it’s rarely that simple

    It’s rarely that simple because, even though God has repeatedly declared that he hears the cry of the oppressed and sees their sufferings and will defend them, we can’t often see this played out in the physical realm of three dimensions plus time that we inhabit, at least in this life. IOW: Although, in eternity and in the invisible realm now, God is willing to play the role of the crowd in Scenario 2 above, it takes great faith to see this.

    It’s one thing to say that, from an eternal perspective, our oppressors are actually in our power and that we have a) authority to release them, and b) great honour from our heavenly Father if we do. But it’s quite another actually to live this out – especially when the church around us is acting like the crowd in Scenario 1.

  165. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I’m talking here about why so many Protestants continue to think the Roman church teaches salvationByWorks when it doesn’t teach this and never has.

    As a non-catholic, one of the major things I learned in school was about the reformation and the selling of indulgences. Things like indulgences seem works based, as do hail Mary’s. That may not be really salvation per se, but it feels more like a thing you have to do to get god benefits than just believing. So that may be part of the reason.

    Law Prof wrote:

    It depends on what is meant by forgiveness.

    I watched a video a while back on how there are actually multiple kinds of forgiveness, and this is what trips people up. The ones he listed were I think 1. You can forgive someone to where the error is forgot and full relationship is restored. 2. You can forgive someone but the full relationship is not quite restored, you just are no longer angry about that thing. and 3. Forgiveness as a kind of release, with no possibility of a relationship restoration (I think he listed things like abuse here).

  166. Lydia wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    Or it is a sign we care about victims and you don’t? I am always glad when evil falls. And I think that is a good heart sign. I just wish more could recognize right and wrong.

    Lydia, I think this really depends on where your heart is. If you are happy someone fails, because they can’t hurt anyone that is a good and right feeling. If you are happy someone fails because you want to wipe the smug look off their face? Maybe a little less noble 🙂 Not that I’m not occasionally guilty of that.

  167. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I have no authority to forgive someone who sins against you, not least because doing so would generally cost me nothing and – thus – mean nothing.

    This is a point that more people should be making. The pastor has no right or authority to forgive a husband abusing his wife.

  168. “Do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which is taking place to test you [that is, to test the quality of your faith], as though something strange or unusual were happening to you” (1 Peter 4:12).

    As I regain my senses after surgery and medication, I am amazed that we are still talking about Mark Driscoll in ministry! Mark Driscoll!! And then I thought, Why Not?! If Americans are so off-track that they are poised to put one of the following folks in the White House: a foul-mouthed, anti-immigrant, right-wing extremist OR a tax & spend, open borders, corrupt left-wing radical … then why should we think it strange or unusual that Christians in Scottsdale are supporting the pulpit return of a potty-mouth, abusive, unrepentant preacher?! What is taking place in both the White House and the Church House is but a reflection of the condition of God’s people in America. It is well past time for US to humble ourselves, pray, repent of OUR sins, and seek God’s face. Our churches will never walk in genuine revival or our nation experience spiritual awakening, without the Church praying as it ought. These times are meant for Christians, as a test for the quality of our faith. Will we pass it? Or will we spiral deeper into spiritual and moral chaos? Mark Driscoll is only a symptom of a greater problem.

  169. Tim wrote:

    Thank you Velour for sharing this and thanks to everyone for keeping us in prayer.
    Tim

    Welcome, Tim.

    Folks: Please continue to pray for Tim’s 92 year old father who had a head injury,
    surgery, and is going to be moved to a care facility and have rehab. There are lots
    of details and Tim and his wife need our prayers.

  170. Jazzmaster wrote:

    I agree with you for the most part, but as Christians, we are called to forgive whether someone asks for that forgiveness or not.

    Again, it hinges almost exclusively on what you mean by forgiveness. In my view, forgiveness simply means that I’m not gonna respond in kind to an aggressor with a retaliatory strike. It does not mean that I am under any obligation to let said aggressor continue with his or her aggression. Especially when it poses a danger to others.

  171. Lydia wrote:

    ..and one more thing, we should not rejoice at his fall (which will almost certainly come sooner or later) and we should pray for him (not that it should become a higher priority than prayer for his victims).

    Lydia, Trying to find anything in my post–or anything I’ve posted–that would incline you to think I don’t care about victims. The Bible says that we’re not to rejoice when an enemy falls and it says to pray for our enemies. Those are specific biblical mandates that I don’t want to jettison. I clearly said that priority for prayers should start with victims first. Did you read that post clearly or quickly? Because again, trying to find something that would justify your response.

  172. Lydia wrote:

    Or it is a sign we care about victims and you don’t?

    Here’s the quote of yours I meant to include in the previous post. Again, please read what I said in context. I find your response bizarre beyond belief given my general demeanor here.

  173. Lydia wrote:

    What concerns me are Christians more concerned about those who use and hurt people than those who are hurt.

    perhaps Lydia could explain more fully what she is saying here.

    There is something to be learned by trying to understand what it is that drives a person to hurt others . . . it doesn’t mean that ‘understanding’ is the same thing as ‘approval’ OR ‘condemnation’, just insight into the destructive force within a person who hurts others

    people are complicated beings and it was Wade Burleson’s wife, Dr. Burleson, who once said ‘hurting people hurt people’;
    which is how you get generational misogyny and physical abuse going on in families, where children have witnessed hell and then act it out as adults

    I would think that there is a need for people who have some wish to take a look into the kinds of people who lash out at others,
    and attempt to sort out the reasons for their destructiveness,
    if nothing more than to offer this knowledge to those who work with destructive patients, clients, etc., in the course of their professional duties.

    what is that saying: ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ ?

  174. Christiane wrote:

    what is that saying: ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ ?

    You’re right. In the case of every abuser, no matter how heinous they seem, we must wonder if we wouldn’t have been worse if we’d been given exactly the same nature and nurture. No one can know, which is why we can’t judge as God judges. But of course, that doesn’t mean we can’t call out these people for what they’re doing, warn people about them and oppose them strongly.

  175. Law Prof wrote:

    But of course, that doesn’t mean we can’t call out these people for what they’re doing, warn people about them and oppose them strongly.

    Yes. The most rabid among the destructive people must be kept from harming others, whether it is in mental institutions/lock-ups, or prisons.
    The predatory nature of some in our society is horrific and demands our intense observation, and intervention for the protection of innocents.

    And yet these tormented souls we would see as ‘monsters’ are still human persons. And therein lies a great responsibility not to label them in such a way that loses sight of that humanity, however corrupted and sick it may have become. And I would suggest that we must continue to recognize them as persons for our own sake, as well as theirs. I know this goes against everything that seems ‘natural’, not to throw them into the darkness and slam the door.
    But yet I also know it is something we must not do and still be able to retain our own identity as human persons, made in the image of God.

  176. __

    A Bridge To Far: “Vitriol [1] and The Proper Use Of Citizenship?”

    hmmm…

      The first amendment (at present) continues to guarantee this 501(c)3 educated professional pastoral individual the freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and petition. 

    Used properly, this amendment can be a good thing.

      The demonstrations, and picketing in front of his new church in the state of Arizona ‘can’ be ‘view’ as harassment seeing Pastor Mark has done absolutely nothing in his new state to warrant such measures. Arizona state and local law enforcement officials know of no violations of either civil or criminal law to date. I would be surprised if they and the politicians that leed them don’t take some action soon, as interfering with a person’s religious right to assemble, can be construed as a direct violation of state and federal law.  
    __
    [1] Vit-ri-ol;  zealous blog keyboard warriors profusely projecting their misery, disdain, and injury onto others through cruel and bitter criticism.

  177. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I wonder whether messrs Taylor and Evans actually believe they have a stake in this business, and/or that they really are directors. Do they know how Driskle has treated his groups of “co-founders” in the past?

    i.e. the same as Joe the Georgian?

  178. Hello everyone. I was just over at our fellow TWWer Sallie’s blog A Woman’s Freedom in Christ. Sallie had a link to this very interesting article, which reminded me of Driscoll and other church planters. http://www.missioalliance.org/band-brothers-young-male-face-bostons-church-planting-movement/

    When I read this, I remembered what someone here said about how a church planter admitted that he was in it just for the money. I know that there are many church planters that are sincere about spreading the gospel, but the more I read this article, the more it seemed to me that much of the church planting business is a con. In this article, church planters are hitting Boston hard and heavy. They’re hitting a fairly affluent city, not east podunk. Some of the comments asked how long these churches will last, maybe five years if even that? It’s almost like an up-market version of the Travelers and their fly-by-night blacktop paving businesses: here today, gone tomorrow.

  179. Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    And then you have the narcissists and sociopaths. Try that with them. :o)

    Yes. You have to remember its like opposite day when you interact with them, really.

  180. Lea wrote:

    Yes. You have to remember its like opposite day when you interact with them, really.

    I know something about this. I have an M.S.Ed. in Guidance and Counseling (agency) and I am licensed to practice counseling in the State of New Jersey. I have worked in three facilities in Jersey that serve some of this population, sadly some of them teenagers. If I ever lost sight of the humanity of the people I worked with, I couldn’t have done the work. It’s part of the profession to understand the importance of this, yes.

  181. Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:
    And then you have the narcissists and sociopaths.

    Motto: “JUST BECAUSE I CAN.”

  182. Patriciamc wrote:

    It’s almost like an up-market version of the Travelers and their fly-by-night blacktop paving businesses: here today, gone tomorrow.

    True. They really are. No substance. Built on shifting sand (gender-centric-doctrine). More and more people are realizing the same thing, the Bible ‘teaches’ no such thing (patriarchy).

  183. Muff Potter wrote:

    True. They really are. No substance. Built on shifting sand (gender-centric-doctrine). More and more people are realizing the same thing, the Bible ‘teaches’ no such thing (patriarchy).

    And hopefully even more will catch on!

  184. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    The problem of playing the game: ‘you cannot have or show any human feeling for a perpetrator, OR it is an indicator that you care for the evil one more than his/her victims’
    is that when extending ‘gloating’ or ‘celebrating’ the demise of a perpetrator, you come to the place of assuming that there is no possible hope for them in this world to find a way out of their darkness.

    I suppose this leads us to that debate on the value of a human life:
    and the ‘right to life’ from conception to natural death. So that some in Christianity who have no hope in them for perpetrators will see no problem with the death penalty;
    and some who leave it to God to judge and intervene in the life of a troubled soul, will say ‘unless it is absolutely necessary, it is better not to take the life of this person who has done so much evil to others, just on the ‘hope’ that there may be a way to salvage that seemingly forever-lost soul.

    So I guess it is about ‘hope’, and what ‘hope’ means in our faith. And why it is that so many have lost their ability to trust that God’s great mercy has the power to touch someone lost and buried deep in the darkness and bring them back from evil?

    And so there is a need in people who have so little hope for the redemption of the worst among our kind, to condemn those who see another possibility still opened for even ‘the worst of sinners’. And the condemnation game is played out this way: the suggestion/accusation
    ‘if you show any empathy for the perpetrator’s tormented soul, you could not possibly also have compassion for his/her victims.’

    The limits of Christian hope for the renewal of others seems to shrink in direct proportion of our ability to look down from a great height on the most despicable of our kind and compare ourselves to them.

    And the growth of hope in our souls? I think it has something to do with how much trust we have when we come to that place where we have been convicted in our hearts and, being filled with shame, ask earnestly for the mercy of God on our souls.

    some thoughts

  185. Shouldn’t the title of church Driscoll pastors be the Church of Origen or the Church of the Eternal Subordination of the Son or the Church of Arias? I might be more generous if Neocalvinists weren’t promoting abuse in their churches. The Trinity is a mystery, but now they are tampering with it in addition to not being very nice people.

  186. one of the recurring patterns is that the narratives are selective. Every narrative necessarily is selective, it’s just that in MD’s case the omissions tend to be strategic and in some ways more informative than the presentations.

    Someone sent along what might have been one of the earliest published accounts by MD about his conversion to Christianity. It was boilerplate “I bet Christianity could be disproved and thereby became a Christian”, what was more striking was that Mark shared an op-ed tale of his conversion in the early 1990s where no mention of his girlfriend came up, and where he omitted the part about being an altar boy.

    http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2016/08/mark-driscolls-art-of-narrative.html

    Considering how primary Grace has been in his public narratives about his conversion since he started Mars Hill it’s an interesting and glaring omission to mention nothing at all her in the 1992 account, although it’s the kind of thing you want to omit in a polemic of the sort Mark wrote. If you mention you’re dating a pastor’s daughter who gave you a Bible people could suspect that your conversion was of the sort recounted in a book like Brideshead Revisited where the guy just says there are as many persons in the Trinity as you say to ensure it’s an officially Catholic wedding ceremony. Or … is that joke too obscure?

  187. @ Christiane:
    We have laws that say you devalued another human so you must pay. A lot of Christians will show up in court and beg for leniency of a pervert because they said sorry or I repented. Meanwhile there are the victims or the victims families….

    There is absolutely nothing wrong or unchristian about justice. Although a lot of Christians would like to convince us of such.

  188. @ Christiane:
    I am just fine with ministering to them behind bars. Go for it. The one who were long time professing Christians are a bit tricky though. I am confused with what we do with long time Christians like priests who molest children. Were they Christians or just Christian sinners who could not help it? Did they never know Christ or understand the vile nature of what they did to an innocent?

  189. Lydia wrote:

    I am just fine with ministering to them behind bars. Go for it.

    Christiane has a very good point. What is your recommendation for what to do with such abusers when they complete their sentence and are released back into society? Which would serve society better, for churches to find a way to actively minister to them, or for churches to shun them because they are too dangerous? If churches shun then, where are they most likely to turn?

    This got very personal for me when my job required me to back-fill an abuser (I did not know about this before I arrived). The crimes he committed against minors were horrific. I was completely disgusted when I learned of the details (the newspaper articles are still available online). I showed up on the job about the time he was starting the actual court case. I did not participate in any of the court proceedings, but some of his church members did – they did not believe the charges because he was such an outstanding liar back then). Through circumstances I still don’t fully comprehend, I ended up ministering to him behind bars for nearly 10 years. He was released a bit more than a year ago and now lives a few hours away. My wife, who is a rape survivor, has been very active in this “ministry.” None of us could have guessed how healing it would be for a perpetrator and a survivor to have the types of discussion we have had.

    I would not recommend this to everyone. In our case, it was very clear that God put this man into our lives. I don’t think I could have done it if his repentance had not been so clear. It’s been a blessing for all of us. But I am not looking for further opportunities to minister to others in this way (at least not yet).

    It boils down to what we believe about 1 Corinthians 6:11 – “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” Is it possible for an offender of this type to become a washed up has-been? I’m guessing that few offenders make this a reality for themselves. But some do. What are we to do with them?

  190. Ken F wrote:

    But some do.

    Yes, KEN F.
    some do, often because of that prophesy by Jeremiah (3:15),
    ” I will give you shepherds after My own heart”

    Your ministry of ten years to that sick man in prison was merciful, as very very few people can work with paedophiles even among professional therapists

  191. @ Ken F:
    I stopped reading after 1st para. Easy. Dont release them. I’m not sure a debt like that can ever be paid as far as consequences are concerned this side of Eternity.

    I would recommend the both of you spend a lot of time with victims and studying the long con grooming process. Do either of you really understand what this does to victims psychologically for the rest of their lives?

    Then if you are really serious about carrying the flag for pedophiles I would highly recommend when they are released you have them babysit your grandchildren. Seriously, exactly who is going to watch them 24/7 when they are released? Such talk is just platitudinal.

    At some point this country and our churches are going to have to start thinking of caring for victims more than those who do the evil to them. Pedophiles have access to free medical care and mental health therapy in prison. Where are poor victims to go?

    Btw, I am not sure you guys understand what it takes to convict a pedophile. By the time that happens they usually have had seventy-five to a hundred victims of various molestations.

    It would be interesting to hear just how many Catholic priests actually served time in the US. We will leave global out of it. Christiane, surely you know that number.

  192. Ken F wrote:

    Is it possible for an offender of this type to become a washed up has-been? I’m guessing that few offenders make this a reality for themselves. But some do. What are we to do with them?

    I have another comment in line and read further.. But as to the above.. how would you know? You do realize that the perps in question are masters of The Long con. They groom adults, too. So how would you ever know you are dealing with an honest pedophile?

  193. @ Lydia
    “I’m not sure a debt like that can ever be paid as far as consequences are concerned this side of Eternity.

    I would recommend the both of you spend a lot of time with victims and studying the long con grooming process. Do either of you really understand what this does to victims psychologically for the rest of their lives?”

    Actually, yes we both do. Because my husband is married to a woman who happens to have fallen into the hands of a perp as a child ( who got so mad that he almost succeeded in killing me for good), so Ken has had to figure out how to “live with his wife in an understanding way”. And I do know what the lifelong consequences are for victims of such crimes because “I are one”. Trauma never gets “undone” or “goes away”. It can only be processed, and that only with the very active help of the Holy Spirit, who knows exactly what happened, what was done, and it is by his grace alone and through his power and presence during the crime/assault/attack, that the body and the soul of the victim still stay tethered together. However, it is also the Spirit of the Risen Christ that can “take us back in time”, back to that “terrible place/time” and it is HIS words spoken into that moment/memory, showing us where HE was while we were being destroyed, that produce “the healing balm/salve of Gilead” to speak Christianese, or in plain English : that produce emotional healing, peace and rest and the ability to release the perpetrator into God’s hands, for the Lord to show mercy to whom he will, how he wants to and when he wants to. Letting go of the need for vengeance frees me up to start the emotional healing process for my own destroyed soul. To tell the Lord “Cancel my murderous perp’s debt”, since “for that also you died on the cross”, then in turn releases me to start daring to believe that “I am complete in Christ”, “I am the righteousness of Christ”, “No weapon formed against me shall succeed”, “I have the mind of Christ”, “Christ in me, the hope of glory”, and a very personal short sentence which the Holy Spirit gave me a few weeks ago as I was struggling to cope with the terrible long term fall-out and mayhem that rape has caused in my life : “Neither victim nor perpetrator, but a new creation!” This is where faith in the Risen Christ becomes extremely personal, out of the head knowledge and into the heart, and the actions of the Living Word of God “sharper than a two edged sword, separating bone and marrow” become a painful process of teaching me how to “take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ”. I know this sounds terribly religious, but whatever healing I have gotten in my soul, and whatever “renewing of the mind” and emotional freedom from the lies that the demons whisper into our souls as victims at the moment of the crime (a Christian trauma expert counselor once said to me :”demons use trauma to implant lies into our soul/heart”), all this has happened because Jesus is truly “Christ my brother”, Emmanuel God with us, and Christus Victor. A God like that, who becomes man, (the gender of my perp), lets himself go through the horrors of the ultimate victimization (scourging and death on a cross as a perp) here on earth and then conquers death itself, just so that those of us who have been dehumanized by other humans, – a God like that I can follow and trust and worship. It chokes me up every time I put all this into words, even after all these years. He went through it all himself, on purpose, so that I would know that I am not alone in what happened to me, he endured it first so that I would know that he did not/does not/will never abandon me, when I fell into the clutches of demonic evil so vile that it makes me want to throw up sometimes when I remember.

    Giving Jesus permission to stir up the deepest recesses and crevasses of my soul is what is required if I ever want to finish healing up from what was done to me. It can feel like a fiery furnace, but even in the furnace he shows up, unbinds the chains that trap me and then, once I come out of it, I will not even smell like smoke. “Not by power nor by might, but by my spirit says the Lord”. Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus our high priest (Hebrews is perhaps my favorite book of the Bible).

    I used to think that God’s healing meant “the erasing of the wounds and scars inflicted” but I am starting to see that He chooses to let us keep our scars – and they will forever remain visible- But because we will have experienced his healing on such a deep level, they probably will look like badges of honor, and even our trauma and subsequent scars can and are already starting to bring praise and honor to our God, because it is through HIS stripes that we are healed. Yes, what has been done to me can never be undone. I will never be the woman I was “originally meant to be” if this terrible stuff had never happened, but instead, as I keep my eyes fixed on Jesus, and allow him to help me face all the fall out, ramifications and the shame that buried itself so deep in my core heart, and just act more on what HE says about me that what my heart has been believing,then my scars and trauma begin pointing other survivors to the source of healing, to Jesus, Christ our Brother, God with us Himself. I have stopped trying to hide and conceal my scars,(especially from fellow believers, because they have been the ones who have attacked me for them in the most vicious manner), but instead have decided that if my God wants me with those scars visible, then so be it, because it is by our scars that we recognize each other and God’s grace in our life. He is my strength, He is my refuge and He is my fortress, a very present help in times of trouble.

    If anyone here is also a survivor and having one of those terrible days where your heart “just wishes it was dead right now” and “why couldn’t I have died for good that day because living now is just so/too painful”, maybe this post will encourage you to hang in there and hope just one more moment, and then another moment and then the next, as you also are enduring our Shepherd leading you through a seemingly never ending “valley of the shadow of death”. It will get better, I promise you. I’m still here, and that I can even write all this is a miracle in itself. When this is all said and done, we will come out of the furnace as pure as gold, and our God will repay us double for our trouble. The fruit of righteousness is peace, and it is written “you are the righteousness of Christ” It is in my weakness that Christ’s strength becomes most apparent. Even trauma, laid at the feet of Jesus can become redeemed and help us worship our Savior with our heart, soul, mind and strength.

  194. Lydia wrote:

    Then if you are really serious about carrying the flag for pedophiles I would highly recommend when they are released you have them babysit your grandchildren.

    Wow. You understood me in the worst possible way. Your charges/accusations/projections (whatever I should call them) are offensive, false, unkind, baseless, ignorant, and not helpful. In previous threads I have been quite clear that forgiveness does not equal trust, that abusers should be held fully accountable before the law, that true repentance will show tangible fruit (such as a “former” pedophile refusing to put himself in situations where he could be with children unsupervised or to be involved in children’s ministry in any way), that abusers are normally very convincing in their lies, the Christians are often easily deceived (because we’ve been taught to forgive and forget), and that churches must be shrewd and diligent in how they protect children from both the registered and the not-yet-caught offenders (at least we can know who the registered ones are).

    I think you are falling into the trap of the false dichotomy. It’s a very seductive trap, and I understand how people fall into it because I’ve been in it myself. Just because God dragged my into this one man’s life does not in any way mean that I now support abusers at the expense of victims. To believe that about me is to believe a terrible lie. As others on this site have commented more eloquently than me, God’s grace and healing work for both victims and perpetrators. And the Bible has plenty of evidence of religious people getting offended that God showed grace to people who did not deserve it.

    Be careful that you don’t fall in to the spirit of Jonah. Ninevah was a morally depraved and abusive culture that had harmed the Jews. He was highly offended that God would send him to such a deplorable group of people. If anyone was beyond repentance it was the Ninevites. My thoughts about abusers was pretty much in line with what you’ve written. I thought they were all beyond hope. I felt like in this case God was putting this man into our lives for a reason. I would never have volunteered for it and I don’t think I could do it again if told to, at least in my own strength. I also have no regrets for getting involved. But even now I would never advocate for him being involved in activities involving children (and he has been very clear both in is actions and what he says that he does NOT want to be around children).

    Lydia wrote:

    So how would you ever know you are dealing with an honest pedophile?

    I would expand this question to: “So how would you ever know you are dealing with an honest man, woman, wife, husband, Christian, Atheist, pastor, victim, colleague, student, boss, employee, mechanic, doctor, sales person, etc. (the list is infinite)?” The bottom line is we cannot. We can never be sure that another person is honest. The best we can do is examine the evidence and then step out in faith, with the risk of getting burned.

    My wife posted a lengthy comment that is not yet visible. It might be worthwhile to check for her comment later.

  195. Ken F wrote:

    would expand this question to: “So how would you ever know you are dealing with an honest man, woman, wife, husband, Christian, Atheist, pastor, victim, colleague, student, boss, employee, mechanic, doctor, sales person, etc. (the list is infinite)?” The bottom line is we cannot. We can never be sure that another person is honest. The best we can do is examine the evidence and then step out in faith, with the risk of getting burned.

    Sorry Ken, I assumed we were speaking of convicted pedophiles when they are released from prison and what to do about them.

    Again, I would refer you to victims and studying the long term con grooming process which includes adults and the utter secrecy in which these heinous crimes are committed. You do realize what such grooming does psychologically to children as they grow into adults? it is a life long battle which affects the ability to have healthy marriages, etc. It never goes away. They might become survivors who are able to manage the nightmare of being so heinously manipulated on what is “love” but it never goes away.

    Sorry but I won’t back down. It breaks my heart to hear Christians speak of helping the perps (who are not given cruel and unusual punishment when they are convicted and there are plenty of prison ministries, too) when there is a HUGE need for victims that has never been filled. They receive no free therapies. Do you realize that? Did you also know that many victims are from poor families who were happy to have the attention of the priest or the nice youth worker or neighbor? Then we blame them, too, for being so trusting. Christians will show up in court begging for leniency because they “repented” or felt bad. The master con man feels bad now? And some pastors even teach we have to accept the repentance immediately. I once had an old college friend who is now a judge, an agnostic, make this very point to me about Christians packing the courtroom in support of the pervert while the victim family sits alone.

    Pedophilia is an extremely premeditated crime. A lot of thought and planning goes into grooming. You might be shocked at how prevalent it is in our society in various ways. And I think a lot of that is because we think it can be “cured”. We are dealing with con men who are masters of deceit.

    If the Christians are not willing to focus on the victims, then we might as well hang it up.

  196. Ken, I think Christians often fall into the trap of loving redemption stories of the most vile and barbarian of our society more than the victims of the original barbarity. In the case of pedophiles, observing good fruit is an oxymoron. They are always publicly kind, patient, joyful, for example.

    I don’t think it is a false dichotomy. I think it is practiced every day in our churches and our society. Victims are to get over it while masses of resources are thrown at the most vile and barely human of our society. See to me, we are more human we do right in how we treat others. We are less human when we do evil.

  197. Lydia wrote:

    Sorry Ken, I assumed we were speaking of convicted pedophiles when they are released from prison and what to do about them.

    I was. The reality, whether we like it or not, is we have a legal system that releases offenders back into society after they have served their time. We Christians can choose to shun them or engage them. Either way has consequences. At the same time, we should never dismiss victims. I don’t see how you could be thinking that I am advocating for perpetrators over victims.

    12 years ago I would have refused to engage with an offender. But God took me on an unexpected path – unexpected for both me and my wife. Maybe God will be more gracious to you and never force you to deal with a convicted perpetrator. That would be better for you – I would not wish this on anyone because it takes a lot of soul-searching, research, double-checking, and getting faced with unfounded accusations.

    I was pretty certain that when I posted my comment that it would result in at least one person falsely accusing me. So your reaction did not come as a surprise. I posted my comment anyway because I think it might be helpful for some.

    In the end, you are free to think and believe whatever you want about me. God is my judge, not any human. I am accountable to him, not to you. So we can drop this discussion.

  198. Lydia wrote:

    I don’t think it is a false dichotomy. I think it is practiced every day in our churches and our society. Victims are to get over it while masses of resources are thrown at the most vile and barely human of our society. See to me, we are more human we do right in how we treat others. We are less human when we do evil.

    Hi LYDIA,
    if I could paraphrase and change something your wrote, I would say this:
    Seems to me, we are more Christ-like when we do right in how we treat others. We are less Christ-like when we do evil.

    Our humanity is itself weakened. When Our Lord assumed our humanity fully, it was ‘humanity’ as it was meant to be, fully healed.

    I concur that people who are paedophiles have a sickness that cannot be ‘cured’ because they live with a temptation that may overwhelm them, at a weak moment. And I agree that they need to be strongly restrained from doing harm to innocents.

    But as far as their ‘humanity’ and our ‘humanity’, we have to come to terms with the fact that the only dignity we have as humans comes from being made in the image of God, and even the worst among us is still a bearer of that image, however faint it may retained. You cannot erase that connection with a dichotomy that says, they are ‘sub-human’, lost forever, no longer to be included in OUR humanity or worthy of any ministry sent from the heart of Christ. We are ALL of us existing only by the Hand of God and sustained by His mercy, and this includes even the worst among us. So if someone can point to worst and say ‘I am glad I am not like that other sinner’, he/she may feel justified. But I challenge that dichotomy as it was described and challenged in the temple where it was practiced by the Pharisee against the Publican. We do not know the nature of the sins of the Publican. But we know he was ashamed and in need of mercy.

    We disagree, Lydia.
    But I don’t wonder that you can attack the lack of ‘schadenfreude’ in those who would minister to people so broken that it IS hard to acknowledge that they are still a part of the human race. Most people recoil in horror from these sick souls.

    The ministry to these people is a special ministry in fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah, God would send ‘shepherds’ formed after His own heart, and these ministers are given the grace to serve even the most despicable among us, in the way Our Lord as Shepherd would not give up the ‘one’ who was lost. That kind of compassion is of a supernatural gift of grace, Lydia. We can’t summon it up on our own, no.

  199. Ken F wrote:

    was. The reality, whether we like it or not, is we have a legal system that releases offenders back into society after they have served their time.

    Truth is it is very hard to convict pedophiles and when it happens they often have a string of victims….most too scared to talk until they are adults.

    I am wondering why our society thinks a life sentence is cruel for such barbarity to innocents?

  200. @ Lydia:
    @ Lydia :
    “See to me, we are more human we do right in how we treat others. We are less human when we do evil.”
    Lydia, unfortunately my comment is still awaiting moderation, but once it clears, it would explain my next sentence. The problem with these types of crimes is that they attack the core essence of a person and their core self perception. The most painful comment I ever got from my last therapist who happened to be a teaching professor and a recognized trauma expert, is that every perpetrator was originally a victim., “How do you think they learned to perfect their technique to the point of not getting caught?” He then proceeded to challenge me as to whether or not the redemptive death of Jesus on the cross was atoning enough for me to be willing to forgive the man who did not succeed in snuffing out my life besides torturing me. Hope this helps you to accurately assess who my husband and I are.

  201. So Dear Hubby just pointed out that if I use the “M” word it gets me “M”med. So here is my modified post from five minutes ago : ““See to me, we are more human we do right in how we treat others. We are less human when we do evil.”
    Lydia, unfortunately my comment is still awaiting “assessment” (synonym), but once it clears, it would explain my next sentence. The problem with these types of crimes is that they attack the core essence of a person and their core self perception. The most painful comment I ever got from my last therapist who happened to be a teaching professor and a recognized trauma expert, is that every perpetrator was originally a victim., “How do you think they learned to perfect their technique to the point of not getting caught?” He then proceeded to challenge me as to whether or not the redemptive death of Jesus on the cross was atoning enough for me to be willing to forgive the man who did not succeed in snuffing out my life besides torturing me. Hope this helps you to accurately assess who my husband and I are.

  202. Ken F wrote:

    12 years ago I would have refused to engage with an offender. But God took me on an unexpected path – unexpected for both me and my wife. Maybe God will be more gracious to you and never force you to deal with a convicted perpetrator.

    My education started many moons ago when I was on the board of a crisis center. I had no direct experience with some of the most vile and barbaric crimes of our society. I even accompanied the therapists and psychologists as an observer to prisons to interview pedophiles and prison counselors. (They separated them from the garden variety armed robbers and murderers because even they think they are vile)

    Since those days I have been an on-again off-again advocate for victims.

    I hope you meet more victims. You accuse me, too, of being unloving to pedophiles. I am most happy to as they are behind bars. They can be redeemed there. There are some crimes in this world that are so vile and barbaric that the consequences cannot go away this side of Jordan. It is not worth it to take the chance that there might be other innocent victims in the future. My position is that those who are truly redeemed would understand that our society cannot take the chance they mean it this time.

    Please keep in mind that we are discussing the most vulnerable of our society. I sincerely hope you have not been hoodwinked because that would make you an enabler of barbarity to innocents. Pedophiles are some of the most charming and believable people on this planet. I prefer to love them from where I know children cannot be harmed.

  203. @ Ken F’s wife:
    I have no problem with you forgiving your perpetrator. We would need to Define what forgiveness means to you.

    What I have a problem with is people telling victims how or when to forgive or that they can’t move on until they tell everyone they forgave the barbarian. I have a problem with how most Christians approach this. I call it the tyanny of forgiveness. As if the cross fixes everything and if it doesn’t the victim is the problem.

    My job is to walk along side them and help them to become strong. Society and church often do the opposite. If they rage at God, then that is ok, too. He understands. Of course, he is most likely disappointed with us for not dealing with pure evil toward innocents, too.

    There is right and wrong. We Christians often forget that when it comes to evil because we think the Cross fixes everything and we are all sinners, you know. And we are quick to play down the evil. And reluctant to hear the details.

    However, it’s not my place to tell you or any victim how to process the evil done to them. In fact, most victims feel pressured to forgive soon __so they can be proper or “real Christians”.

  204. @ Ken F’s wife:
    Do you not see the problem? If there are victims that do not become perpetrators what does that tell you? And if some victims become perpetrators then that only lends credence to life sentences so we cut down on the amount of victims in each generation.

  205. … and the most amazing thing of all, my three kids, 23, 22, and almost 21 years old still respect me and think that I am a good woman, and told me just this past week-end that I am a good mom. Now THOSE words are worth more than all the gold in the world. Because I knew what unresolved trauma can do to mess up my babies for life (I am one of those babies, so I pleaded with the Lord to spare my offspring from what I and my parents went through surviving the aftermath of our own parents having to live through the horrors of war and enemy invasion and its aftermath). By the way, I think it is a wonderful thing that “many moons ago” you actually took the time to get involved in a crisis center.I assume it might have been a rape crisis center. After I got married and legally immigrated to the US, I went to one of those because nobody in Europe that I knew ever mentioned the notion of date rape (rape victims tend to be revictimized, but if you were trained, I don’t need to mention that….). It is my experience that most secular therapists tend to be much kinder and more understanding towards a genuine rape survivor than “Christian” folks. In fact, that is the reason that I insisted on getting “secular” licensed help for a long time. Only to find out that the best recommended “secular” therapists turned out to also accidentally be believers and followers of Jesus Christ…. go figure…. I guess if the Bible is true, I probably should have known better, but I was so gun shy and had such vicious ad hominem attacks launched at me for being a “problem” (code word for messed up piece of trash similitude of a christian woman/wife/mother that I no longer trusted fellow believers when it came to the topic of sexual violence) that I just didn’t have the courage to go “Christian” at the time. Perhaps being raised on the mission field with a bunch of other nationalities along with their core beliefs imagine being raised not just by a village but a GLOBAL village and all those core beliefs…) might have had something to do with it…. Anyway, thank you for making the effort to be there for ladies going through hard times.

  206. @ Lydia:
    I just posted a nice comment thanking you for your willingness to get involved and trying to be there for “ladies going through hard times”. Unfortunately, even that comment is currently in jail. I hope you check back later and pick up the compliment. I meant it and it was not contrived.

  207. @ Ken F’s wife:
    I believe you. We are all different, aren’t we?

    I happen to believe basic justice here and now is important. Our society declares what is valuable and what is not.

    And I saw the real problems victims have in not only dealing years later but often their families even wanted to sweep it under the rug. They were devalued by their family, the justice system and even churches…. who were busy celebrating the Redemption of the Barbarian who committed the crime or hiding them.

    I think the thing that has shocked me the most about all of it looking back over the years is how many victims there are. And how few pedophiles are caught and convicted. And how many are even members of the family.

    We can do better on this issue.

  208. @ Lydia,
    @ Ken F’s wife:
    I have no problem with you forgiving your perpetrator. We would need to Define what forgiveness means to you.

    Lydia, I am still trying to get used to the format of this website. I don’t usuallly post routinely here. that being said, let me define forgiveness to my best understanding. Here it is (with euphemisms if you want to call them that). “Lord, your sacrificial “passover sacrifical lamb death on the cross” is good enough atonement enough, payment enough, penalty enough, justice enough “anything” enough.Vengeance enough, rage enough, just plain good enough. Dear enough, precious enough, valuable enough, honorable enough, clean enough, holy enough, sanctified enough. in short ENOUGH……. and because of all the above reasons, go ahead and forgive the unforgiven ones the most unforgivable….. and heal my children from what I as a survivor was not able to shield my own babies from while they were growing up., The problem with being a survivor, is exactly that. Being a “sur”vivor, as opposed to just simply being allowed to “live and grow normally”. and, boy, have my own kids called me on the carpet for that, because, even though I have always done the best I can, I apparently did mess up. What didn’t help, is that both sets of grandparents had some terrible life experiences of their own…..

  209. @ Lydia:
    about “sweeping it under the carpet….. there is Christians and then there is the “missionary environment” and realizing that your next pay check and food on the table depends on how “perfect and perfectly christian your family is” In that setting it is simply not a good idea to have any kind of problem or issue with any thing ever…. Maybe that explains why so many MKs and PKs are agnostics at best or atheists or worse…. I was fortunate that my own parents were rebels and kind at heart. They just were blinded as to what was done to me, because they had horrible done to them…. at least I don’t know what it is like to have to watch my own mother raped at gunpoint by an enemy soldier….And more than just once….. And my parents would kill me if they ever found out that I just posted this…..

  210. Ken F wrote:

    12 years ago I would have refused to engage with an offender. But God took me on an unexpected path

    Ken, you wrote “but God took me on an unexpected path”
    One example of another such intervention:

    “While I was in sin, it seemed very bitter to me to see lepers. And the Lord, Himself, led me among them and I had mercy upon them.”
    (St. Francis of Assisi)

    Ken, I think your calling to the ministry is the real thing.

  211. @ Christiane:

    The lepers were molesting children? That is the topic. Not conflating lepers with molesters. You slyly move the goalposts and in the meantime lump lepers in with molesters. Sigh.

  212. @ Lydia:
    Lydia, I humbled myself deeply by engaging with you honestly and with an uncensored heart. Why do you have to scold Christiane for making a kind comment to my husband ? Why can’t you show her any kind of graciousness?

  213. @ Ken F’s wife:

    Because lepers are not molesters. They are innocent victims. Can you not see that? Engaging a leper is the same as engaging a barbaric child Molester? I don’t see leperosy as heinous sin. Perhaps she does? Why conflate them?

    Ken is free to live out his faith. What I have a problem with is expecting everyone else to do the same. My mandate is victims.

  214. @ Lydia:
    perhaps the topic is much larger than that, Lydia, and therein lies the problem:

    from Eden, we humans were ALL ‘outcasts’, and yet God has still looked on us, in His mercy

    I don’t see how any of us can lose sight of that fact, especially in light of how far God went to try to save us from ourselves;
    and how little we know of how much He suffered for our sake out of love when He took ALL of the sins of humanity upon Himself on the Cross?

    On the cross, He took ALL of our sins of all time upon Himself, not just the ‘acceptable’ sins of them who pride themselves that they have the right to look down on the most despicable of our kind in judgement.

    That is a searing reality to realize, to remember, and to ponder with the help of the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

  215. @ Christiane:

    I think we’ve been around this topic before on older threads, with a few other people.

    God may be willing to forgive any sin, but it does not follow from that such things as

    1. people instantly turn a new leaf
    or
    2. you have to allow that person into your life.

    My brother’s wife has a drug problem. She finances her habit by stealing jewelry and other material possessions from people and sells it to pawn shops.

    Yes, God can forgive her for her drug addiction and thefts, but no, it does not mean it would be prudent to allow her into your home, where she can (and probably will) steal your stuff to sell it to get more money to buy more drugs.

    My sister is a verbal abuser.

    Can God forgive her that? Yep.

    Does that mean I have to continue to allow her into my life, keep up contact with her, so she can keep abusing me? No.

    It’s the same principle at work.

    That God can or does forgive sin, or is willing to, does not instantly make a person trust-worthy, nor does it mean that person should have access to you, your family, to children, to money, alcohol, or whatever.

  216. Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    The lepers were molesting children? That is the topic. Not conflating lepers with molesters. You slyly move the goalposts and in the meantime lump lepers in with molesters. Sigh.

    Hi Lydia,
    I sense your frustration. And I found an evangelical site that offers some explanation that might help with your concern, this:
    http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-leprosy.html

  217. Lydia wrote:

    Ken is free to live out his faith. What I have a problem with is expecting everyone else to do the same.

    You have a problem with people expecting other people to live out their faith?!?

  218. Christiane wrote:

    You cannot erase that connection with a dichotomy that says, they are ‘sub-human’, lost forever, no longer to be included in OUR humanity or worthy of any ministry sent from the heart of Christ. [etc]

    After considering Nazi Germany, cases I read about in “The Sociopath Next Door,” and cases I read of in excerpts from a book on sex offenders by Anna Salter, I’m not so sure about that.

    Some people are very twisted. They cannot be reached. They enjoy inflicting suffering on other people.

    There are some people who cannot be redeemed because they have several psychological issues, are plain evil, and/or are not interested in being redeemed. These types of people do exist. They are out there.

  219. Correction. In my post that has not been published yet it says,
    “There are some people who cannot be redeemed because they have several psychological issues,”

    that should read “SEVERE psychological…”

  220. @ Christiane:

    But we know better now. I’d like to think that most Christians today are not going to assume someone has a physical disease because God is punishing them for a sin.

    Leprosy is a sickness, child molesting is a choice and a behavior. People with leprosy don’t choose to get leprosy.

  221. @ Lydia:
    Lydia, you are so blessed that you have not been exposed to the connection to “lepers = anathema = rape vitims = anathema= perpetrator =anathema = “you don’t believe like I do = anathema”etc…. please do not stoop to the low ground….. I gained respect for your heart for folks that have been victimized. You are a good woman. Please don’t listen to anyone and hurt another good woman/fellow believer in Christ. None of us will make it into heaven without anyone else in the seven churches of Revelation. Please don’t hurt yourself by accidentally being upset at another woman who loves Jesus and is also advocating for innocent victims who do not deserve to be punished for attacks they were physically unable to prevent.

  222. Daisy wrote:

    Leprosy is a sickness, child molesting is a choice and a behavior. People with leprosy don’t choose to get leprosy.

    The reason for ostracizing people with leprosy back then was not because they were sick, but because they were contagious. The whole point was to protect uninfected people. A person with leprosy would victimize healthy people by getting too close to them. That’s why they were banned. Also, there was a strong conviction back then that leprosy was a curse from God because lepers had sinned, not because of exposure to pathogens. They were considered God-forsaken, unclean, and un-redeemable. So the analogy with lepers is not at all a stretch.

    And many people today do believe that their sickness is because God is cursing them.

  223. Ken F wrote:

    The reason for ostracizing people with leprosy back then was not because they were sick, but because they were contagious. The whole point was to protect uninfected people. A person with leprosy would victimize healthy people by getting too close to them. That’s why they were banned.

    Oh no, I get that. I understood that in my last post, when I wrote my last post.

    I still don’t agree that the analogy of leprosy is comparable to child molesting.

    People may have avoided lepers at one point the way people today wish to avoid molesters, but I’d say group 1, the lepers, couldn’t help being the way they were, where-as group 2, the molesters, choose to act and in a way that hurts children.

    To me, the two aren’t the same.

  224. @ Daisy:
    The reference is to another time, DAISY.

    The idea of ‘repugnance’ to a condition is present.
    I see paedophilia as a sickness that likely cannot be cured. I see it’s victims as very vulnerable and I do believe that paedophiles need to be restrained and kept under surveillance by authorities. But they are still human beings, and what I have seen here, this week is that several people have been attacked for realizing that these very sick people are also in need of ministry. The ‘game’ is to attack this way: if you are concerned about the predator, that means you cannot also be concerned for the victims’. The ‘dichotomy’ is drawn.

    I disagree with the dichotomy. I think there is no reason to ‘force’ any victim to ‘forgive’ a perpetrator, or to be exposed to that perpetrator ever again, especially by some neo-Cal ‘minister’ whose buddy is a pedophile.

    On the other hand, there is no need to belittle the work of those who minister to the outcasts in our society and to label them as insensitive to victims. Ministry and therapy to those who are paedophiles is extremely difficult anyway, and only very special people can do this work. Attacking them and their work is WRONG in my opinion. And attacking their character as being uncaring about victims is unconscionable.

  225. Daisy wrote:

    People may have avoided lepers at one point the way people today wish to avoid molesters, but I’d say group 1, the lepers, couldn’t help being the way they were, where-as group 2, the molesters, choose to act and in a way that hurts children.

    That’s correct from the perspective of the person with the disease/sin. In that sense the analogy is not good. But from the perspective of the potential victim (or uninfected person), the only way to avoid being victimized (infected) is to be separated from the sick people. This is where the analogy is very pertinent. Uninfected people rightly demand separation. But Jesus did the unthinkable and touched lepers. He also talked with Samaritans, ate with tax-collectors. He did quite a lot of very culturally incorrect things.

  226. @ Christiane:
    when somebody is divinely ordained to a particular ministry, not even hell itself will be able to deter them, because it actually already has. The best thing to do for detractors, is to pray for them, that the Lord would be kind and gracious and heal up the detractors from whatever it is that has them in its horrific grip. No one ever picks a fight with another human being unless they were previously hurt through no fault of their own. May the Lord give healing to those hurt… and also grant us stupid fools who were attacked as a consequence same said healing!!!! …… oops, I just acknowledged that “hurt people can actually inflict TRUE realistic no kidding real genuine legally damaging harm… you mean to imply that it wasn’t merely a ridiculous figment of my own personal messed up figment of my imagination ? ….shocking!…. Does not fit into the YRR parameter? how can that even be remotely be ?
    Can y’all read between the lines and smell what hell my family has been through for over the past ten years ? May God spare my ennemies what my family has been through and repay us double for our trouble. We should be ok if he does.

  227. ….Good thing I did not ask my husband to proof read my comments because his heart is so very much kinder towards people who are angry at either of us than my own heart. I suppose it is possible that I might have experienced more “true” “certified (whatever dingly dangly doodle that would be…..) abuse than he supposedly has (trust me he got hurt terribly through no fault of his own) but if any of you folks would meet him, I really think you would genuinely like him. He is a good man. I would know. I have lived with him for over 25 years. I think that is time enough to give him streetcreds.

  228. @ Ken F’s wife:
    I’m glad you’re here. That there is a lot of pain in what you write is evident, yes. There are many people here who have been hurt by abuse. Only some of them have told their stories. But you can often read ‘between the lines’ of the hell they have endured, yes. Sometimes there is more of pain in what people don’t say because there are no words for the depth of that pain.

  229. Christiane wrote:

    from Eden, we humans were ALL ‘outcasts’, and yet God has still looked on us, in His mercy

    I have no idea what this all means. Not all outcasts commit barbarity toward the most vulnerable of society. You seem to be suggesting moral equivalency/sin leveling.

  230. @ Ken F’s wife:
    I am not angry at anyone. I just disagree with many of the arguments made. That is ok, right? I am pretty direct when it comes to innocent children.

  231. @ Christiane:
    Wow. Great job at reframing everything.

    As I said, I believe our society and yes, even the church, throws many resources and attention at predators that they do not give victims. Our society and even the church are very concerned about the well-being of predators but not so much, victims who must go on and try to build productive lives from the nightmare the predator “chose” to inflict on them. Sadly many of these predators use the church to commit their barbarity.

    If that makes me a predator hater who “attacks”, then not sure it is wise to interact with you. You are very clever at reframing things and platitudes. I can’t compete with that nor do I want to.

  232. Lydia wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    from Eden, we humans were ALL ‘outcasts’, and yet God has still looked on us, in His mercy

    I have no idea what this all means. Not all outcasts commit barbarity toward the most vulnerable of society. You seem to be suggesting moral equivalency/sin leveling.

    Or she could just be over-Spiritualizing.

  233. Lydia wrote:

    Our society and even the church are very concerned about the well-being of predators but not so much, victims who must go on and try to build productive lives from the nightmare the predator “chose” to inflict on them. Sadly many of these predators use the church to commit their barbarity.

    Helps if the Predator is of high-status, like a King, Celebrity, Pastor/Apostle, or court favorite of one.

  234. Ken F wrote:

    What is your recommendation for what to do with such abusers when they complete their sentence and are released back into society? Which would serve society better, for churches to find a way to actively minister to them, or for churches to shun them because they are too dangerous? If churches shun then, where are they most likely to turn?

    A predator who has truly changed will want desperately not to hurt anyone. They will want to stay away from temptation. One who does not I would not trust. Churches can find ways to minister to them without treating them preferentially as compared to their prey. They themselves should be ok with strict protection of innocents, and whatever is necessary to do that, even if it means they meet off site.

  235. Christiane wrote:

    But I don’t wonder that you can attack the lack of ‘schadenfreude’ in those who would minister to people so broken that it IS hard to acknowledge that they are still a part of the human race. Most people recoil in horror from these sick souls.

    Evil is part of the human race. That doesn’t mean we have to eat with it.

    Others may be called to minister to them, but that doesn’t mean we should call evil good and good evil.

  236. Christiane wrote:

    who pride themselves that they have the right to look down on the most despicable of our kind in judgement.

    Is it pride to call evil evil? Really?

  237. Christiane wrote:

    On the other hand, there is no need to belittle the work of those who minister to the outcasts in our society and to label them as insensitive to victims.

    This is how I see the problem in churches today. It seems that the church itself – not just individuals who are specifically called to minister to this population – has to choose a side when something happens in their church. And according to what we’ve been reading, they almost invariably CHOOSE the side of evil.

    That is what the catholic church did. That is what Doug Wilson did. They choose to support the perpetrator over the victim, by showing up in court on their side and trying to protect them, rather than the victim.

    Nobody is opposed to prison ministries or the people who are called to that. But should that be the default when a church is forced to make a choice?? No.

  238. Ken F’s wife wrote:

    No one ever picks a fight with another human being unless they were previously hurt through no fault of their own.

    Sorry for posting crazy, but I do not believe this, except insofar as all of us have been hurt by something at some point or another. Reading the story of ted bundy – his parents weren’t perfect but that is not why he became a killer.

  239. Lea wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    But I don’t wonder that you can attack the lack of ‘schadenfreude’ in those who would minister to people so broken that it IS hard to acknowledge that they are still a part of the human race. Most people recoil in horror from these sick souls.

    No, Lea, you don’t have to.

    But some people in our world have eaten with sinners and called them ‘sick’. I think a lot of the ‘evil’ that men do is a product of the worst kind of sickness humankind can display, the kind that leads them to injure innocents.

    “11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked His disciples,
    “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (St. Matthew’s Gospel, Ch.9)

    So when you say, “Evil is part of the human race. That doesn’t mean we have to eat with it.”, remember this:
    Our Lord assumed our humanity into Himself during His Incarnation, so that He could offer healing to even the worst among our kind.

    I am not in your ‘WE’, but I could not work with paedophiles. I am not strong enough or gifted enough or have enough of God’s grace to do that work. Nor do I have the humility, as they fill me with disgust.

    But I know this:
    That there are among us some who are called to work with the sickest among our kind and who offer to them the Mercy of Our Lord, Who came to Earth ‘not for the righteous, but for the sick’.

    I honor these servants of Christ. And I ask those who attack these servants to reconsider their criticism, particularly the part where they have decided that ministry to the sickest of our kind is an indication that victims are being disregarded in the process.

    Those neo-Cal ‘pastors’ weren’t pastors. The ones who abused victims of their paedophile buddies. That is not religion. That is not Christianity.
    Those Catholic ‘authorities’ who tried to hide paedophile priests while exposing innocent to these sick priests, those authorities were also NOT ‘pastors’. I KNOW the difference between them and someone like Ken F., but I don’t think you or Lydia understand that difference, and that makes me sad.

  240. Lea wrote:

    Evil is part of the human race. That doesn’t mean we have to eat with it.

    Others may be called to minister to them, but that doesn’t mean we should call evil good and good evil.

    My comment above addresses this portion of LEA’s comment, sorry for confusion.

  241. Lea wrote:

    A predator who has truly changed will want desperately not to hurt anyone. They will want to stay away from temptation. One who does not I would not trust. Churches can find ways to minister to them without treating them preferentially as compared to their prey. They themselves should be ok with strict protection of innocents, and whatever is necessary to do that, even if it means they meet off site.

    That’s a very good summary of what I’ve been writing here. I find pedophilia an extremely heinous and evil sin. Churches and society should do all they can to stop it and prevent it. It’s outrageous when church people defend pedophiles and treat them better than they treat victims. That should never happen.

    At the risk of being grossly misunderstood again, I think churches are naive if they think that RSO’s agreeing to meet off-site will help protect children. The fact is, if you are in a medium to large church then you already have pedophiles in your congregation. But who knows who they are? The ones who are up-front about it and who would agree to restraints are the least risky, if only because everyone can keep an eye on them. I’m not saying that they are not a threat, but it’s a threat that can be contained.

    Churches probably do a reasonable job of doing criminal background checks on people involved with children’s ministries (this is an absolute minimum requirement). But how many do background checks on every member? And probably none do background checks on visitors because it would be impossible. This means that there is no way anyone can be sure that they don’t already have predators in their congregation. The only wise option is to put processes in place where it does not make any difference whether or not pedophiles are in attendance. This would include things such as never allowing an adult to be alone with a child or with children (strictly enforce a two-person rule), putting windows on all rooms (including storage rooms and closets) so that there is nowhere to hide, installing video cameras in all hallways with recording capabilities so that events can be reconstructed, having very strict check-in/check-out procedures for children, bring in an expert to assess your program to see if there are any vulnerabilities, etc.

    Predators target churches because Christians are so easy to fool. This means that you have to assume that your church is being targeted. Predators will sound very convincing, so it will take people with backbone to maintain a safe place for children.

    I feel like I am in pretty strong agreement with everyone here that children in particular, and victims in general, need a safe church environment. And I think this can be done. But I get quite a lot of heat by suggesting that it could be possible that some offenders can truly repent. Since we live in a culture where offenders are eventually released, I think we owe it to society to do everything we can to protect potential victims. Much of that includes putting appropriate measures in place. And I think a part of it also includes ministering to offenders who demonstrate through time that truly want to be done with offending. It’s certainly not a ministry for everyone, but for those whom God thrusts into it, they should not be ostracized. It’s not a calling I would wish on anyone.

  242. Lea wrote:

    Evil is part of the human race. That doesn’t mean we have to eat with it.

    Others may be called to minister to them, but that doesn’t mean we should call evil good and good evil.

    No, Lea, you don’t have to.

    But some people in our world have eaten with sinners and called them ‘sick’. I think a lot of the ‘evil’ that men do is a product of the worst kind of sickness humankind can display, the kind that leads them to injure innocents.

    “11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked His disciples,
    “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (St. Matthew’s Gospel, Ch.9)

    So when you say, “Evil is part of the human race. That doesn’t mean we have to eat with it.”, remember this:
    Our Lord assumed our humanity into Himself during His Incarnation, so that He could offer healing to even the worst among our kind.

    I am not in your ‘WE’, but I could not work with paedophiles. I am not strong enough or gifted enough or have enough of God’s grace to do that work. Nor do I have the humility, as they fill me with disgust.

    But I know this:
    That there are among us some who are called to work with the sickest among our kind and who offer to them the Mercy of Our Lord, Who came to Earth ‘not for the righteous, but for the sick’.

    I honor these servants of Christ. And I ask those who attack these servants to reconsider their criticism, particularly the part where they have decided that ministry to the sickest of our kind is an indication that victims are being disregarded in the process.

    Those neo-Cal ‘pastors’ weren’t pastors. The ones who abused victims of their paedophile buddies. That is not religion. That is not Christianity.
    Those Catholic ‘authorities’ who tried to hide paedophile priests while exposing innocent to these sick priests, those authorities were also NOT ‘pastors’. I KNOW the difference between them and someone like Ken F., but I don’t think you or Lydia understand that difference, and that makes me sad.

  243. Lydia wrote:

    What does that have to do with “choosing” to molest children?. I still don’t get it.

    The point is that healthy people need to be protected from unhealthy people. People don’t choose to get leprosy (or most any other infectious disease) in the same way that pedophiles do choose to commit criminal acts. I get that. The analogy has nothing to do with the choice of the people being ostracized. The point is that society needs to be protected from dangerous people, for whatever reason they are dangerous. I would never advocate for pedophiles to be around children. And I would never advocate for going soft on this sin. It needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent that the law will allow. It’s a sick disease that won’t be solved by a simple once-and-done confession – churches and ministries do a huge disservice to society and to the pedophiles when they seek reduced punishment.

    The real question is whether or not it’s possible for God to heal such a person. I am not willing to say that anyone is absolutely beyond repentance. I am also not so naive to think that such healing will be quick, easy, or common. In the case of my RSO friend, God pulled him through very difficult knothole for more than a decade. He had plenty of formal counseling and treatment during that time, which freed me to help him work through his beliefs about God. He snookered everyone at the beginning. I was not deceived by him because I did not believe a word he said. It took me a very long time to learn to trust him, not because I was groomed, but because I saw the fruit in his life (and I relied a lot on my wife for her assessment and input). I am glad he went to prison because I think he needed it. I’ve never coddled him – I called him out every time I suspected he was not being fully truthful. Also, he has never had anything to gain by grooming be because I’ve never been in a position to influence any of his legal proceedings, and I told him I wouldn’t. I’ve been impressed by how much he goes out of his way to make sure that he has no contact with children. I think he is safe enough to attend church services (which he currently does in a very healthy and large church – the church leaders know his history), but I would be horrified if any church would let him get involved in children’s/youth ministry.

    I recognize that this is a very difficult topic. I don’t mean to offend anyone here. I guess I’m not surprised that some react so strongly. But I had expected a little more grace rather than getting assaulted with false accusations.

  244. Lydia wrote:

    No, I said just the opposite. Confused.

    Here is what you wrote to me: “Ken is free to live out his faith. What I have a problem with is expecting everyone else to do the same. My mandate is victims.”

    Lydia,
    Are you saying that I am expecting everyone else to live out their faith in the same way that I do? It sounds like you are accusing me putting people under pressure. What have I written here to convince you that this is true? Please provide specifics. If I wrote something specific that makes you think I am pushing people to live as I do, then I would like to know what it is so that I can either clarify what I meant or else repent. I cannot recall one time on this site where I have ever insisted that anything think or believe like I do. Please help me to know what I did. Or are you just generally upset with me for bringing up this topic?

  245. Christiane wrote:

    but I don’t think you or Lydia understand that difference, and that makes me sad.

    Wow. Self righteous and uncalled for IMO.

    No one has attacked anyone for prison type ministry’s but you contastanly act as if we have. That’s not what Lydia is talking about. That’s not what I’m talking about.

  246. Lea wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    but I don’t think you or Lydia understand that difference, and that makes me sad.

    Wow. Self righteous and uncalled for IMO.

    No one has attacked anyone for prison type ministry’s but you contastanly act as if we have. That’s not what Lydia is talking about. That’s not what I’m talking about.

    LEA,
    Then why WAS Ken F. attacked ?

  247. Christiane wrote:

    Then why WAS Ken F. attacked ?

    Christiane, I don’t think Lydia, or Daisy, or anyone else is attacking Ken or his wife, but warning them. Ken himself has acknowledged in a recent comment how crafty pedophiles can be, and I think others are trying to ensure that he doesn’t forget that, so that the man to whom he’s ministering doesn’t hurt anyone else.

    I have a vague awareness of this from a family situation of my own. A relative of mine has had to deal with it, ever since a man among his in-laws was busted in a police sting. (This man was married, and was caught for buying the services of underage prostitutes.) The offender has served his sentence and is on probation now, as I understand. And because he’s family, my relative has to deal with and spend time with him, and he’s been permitted to worship at the same church. But even now, everyone has to be constantly on guard around this man, because he will still try to get people to pity him, paint himself as a “victim”, and convince others of what he thinks he’s entitled to. My relative finds these mind games exhausting.

    I don’t envy anyone who is forced or (in Ken’s case) feels called to minister to people like these. The level of vigilance required must be more than I can fathom. Those who minister to or handle sex offenders had better be very well trained and educated, so that they don’t get charmed.

  248. P.S. I suspect that Driscoll’s current attempt at “ministry” has much the same character as the behaviour I described above. Play the “pity” card, leave out important details, claim to have “learned oh so much”, and try to act as though life can just go on as normal (for him, that is).

    It’s bad enough to see Driscoll doing it to simply cheat grown-ups out of their money. I don’t blame anyone for being horrified at the thought of grown Christians getting similarly hoodwinked, so that a pedophile can steal the innocence of children.

  249. @ Serving Kids In Japan:
    Thanks for trying to help out here, which is kind.

    As far as need for warning, I believe this to be true:
    there are among us some who have been especially called to serve God because they carry within them a PROTECTIVE Christ-like humility to minister to those who are deeply despised and rejected for the evil they have done.
    I say ‘protective’ because real Christ-like humility carries with it a shield of grace from God that evil can neither penetrate nor destroy.

  250. Ken F wrote:

    The fact is, if you are in a medium to large church then you already have pedophiles in your congregation. But who knows who they are? The ones who are up-front about it and who would agree to restraints are the least risky, if only because everyone can keep an eye on them. I’m not saying that they are not a threat, but it’s a threat that can be contained.

    We only hear about the ones dumb enough to get caught.

  251. Ken F wrote:

    I think he is safe enough to attend church services (which he currently does in a very healthy and large church – the church leaders know his history),

    Is this known by everyone in the church? If not, I don’t think leaders should appropriate such a decision for someone else. When such a decision is made secretly it is a calculated risk and those who are doing the calculation are not the same as those taking the risk.

    I do however have a great deal of respect for your story and interaction with this man.

  252. Bill M wrote:

    When such a decision is made secretly it is a calculated risk and those who are doing the calculation are not the same as those taking the risk.

    Indeed. Just as those who have not been harmed should not be doing the forgiving, I do not believe those who are not in danger should be deciding for others.

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    We only hear about the ones dumb enough to get caught.

    Yes. And the way we protect people from the unknowns is different from how we protect them from the knows. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t stupid not to use extra precautions with the knows!

    Wouldn’t it be nice if churches would skip out on one of their marriage sermons and make room for information about abusers and how they groom victims and everyone around them to get what they want?

  253. Bill M wrote:

    Is this known by everyone in the church? If not, I don’t think leaders should appropriate such a decision for someone else. When such a decision is made secretly it is a calculated risk and those who are doing the calculation are not the same as those taking the risk.

    I don’t know how that church handles it – it’s several hours from where I live and I think I only visited it twice It’s very large with lots of visitors. I’m not sure how a church like that would notify everyone. Maybe they could make him wear a scarlet “P”? Or perhaps they could post his picture all over the place. Then of course all kinds of questions will come up as to which sins should be highlighted. Would it be only for pedophiles, or for all registered offenders? What about known (or strongly suspected) pedophiles who have never been convicted? It seems like it would invite legal trouble to specifically advertise info like this on particular people. And how much of the problem would it solve? It would certainly not catch all the perpetrators smart enough to not get caught. Those are the one that really need to be isolated, but no one knows how to identify them. I understand your suggestion, I just don’t see a way that it could be practically done in a church where everyone does not know each other.

    I think a better solution would be for churches to train people on how to identify and repel perpetrators. But that has a couple of problems. One, it would scare many people, which could make pastors reluctant to teach about it. And two, it could implicate the pastors and elders who lead in the style of the new-Calvinists. It is definitely a life skill worth learning.

  254. Lea wrote:

    Wouldn’t it be nice if churches would skip out on one of their marriage sermons and make room for information about abusers and how they groom victims and everyone around them to get what they want?

    YES!!! That would be a mark of a healthy church. I’ve been a member of quite a few churches because of my job that has moved me so many times. I have never heard any teaching on this. What a shame.

    I’ve also been very fortunate to never have been involved with a church that had to deal with offenders involved in ministry as described in many of the comments on this site. I know it happens based on reports of others, I just don’t know how common it is. In any case, I strongly believe that churches need to do more to create safe environments. Part of that is the teaching that you recommend.

  255. @ Christiane:
    @Christiane,
    I had never thought about God giving us an extra measure of grace to be able to do what he calls us to do, but it would make sense why the past ten years have been so extremely hard and painful for me, trying to obey the Lord when He told me to remember and stare down the fullness of what had happened to me and its fall out. Maybe I need to start to try to be grateful for all that terribly painful opposition.
    God knows how many times I have had to apologize to Dear Hubby and my kids for overreacting out of trauma that came to the surface. Perhaps that is also a form of special grace, “without Christ I can do nothing” and yet “I am complete in Christ”. Your post really encouraged me to hang in there with this whole process of renewing my mind and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. I never considered that what feels like divine cruelty might actually be an added layer of protection. Thank you for ministering to me by writing this!

  256. Ken F wrote:

    Maybe they could make him wear a scarlet “P”?

    Interesting how this subject engenders so much hyperbole. In my case it sets me on edge, I then have to overcome and set aside the visceral reaction to further engage. There have been comments in a similar vein from the other end. Hard to find much common ground here.

    Informing more people is not as impossible as you present and no I wasn’t thinking it would be simple and easy. There has been at least one recent case where a church leadership made such a private decision and kept it within a few of the staff. They believed they had it managed but they weren’t and they didn’t. I would suggest they take it to a wider audience for such a decision and ask the question, not tell them the answer.

    Someone who has molested children has damaged these young ones for life, I believe the perpetrator has to also deal with the consequences of their actions for life. How this plays out will engender strong views from both directions. That we might find common ground may be possible but it is difficult when it contains overstated metaphor.

    but no one knows how to identify them.

    To be clear, I was talking about those already identified. I agree with the suggestion to train people to identify and properly report abusers, many local churches have done this in my community.

  257. Ken F’s wife wrote:

    Maybe I need to start to try to be grateful for all that terribly painful opposition.
    God knows how many times I have had to apologize to Dear Hubby and my kids for overreacting out of trauma that came to the surface.

    Oh my dear lady, I am so sorry you have suffered so much. I’m glad I wrote something that comforted you, and I will pray for you to find that peace that comes when you rest ‘in Christ’.
    ‘In Christ’ is the only place where our pain is already well-known and understood in ways that critical people cannot possibly comprehend.

    I believe your husband is, for you, one of God’s tender mercies. And, in that light, I believe his work with troubled souls to be even more inspired.

    All shall someday be healed in the Kingdom of Our Lord.

  258. Ken F wrote:

    And how much of the problem would it solve

    Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. You have a one on problem. The more people looking out and trying to make sure the kids are protected the better.

    If you solve any of the problem that is better than nothing!!! Surely you can see that.

  259. @ Lea:

    You have a known problem!! My auto correct hates that word.

    Also, the ‘problem’ we are talking about is destroyed childhoods and sometimes destroyed lives. I am for solving as much of the ‘problem’ as we can.

  260. Lea wrote:

    If you solve any of the problem that is better than nothing!!! Surely you can see that.

    It’s unfortunate that we cannot have face-to-face conversation. I think we are in much more agreement than you think. The main reason I got involved in ministering to my (now) friend is because I was thinking primarily of protection of innocents. I knew that he would be released back into society, so I felt like I had a responsibility to come alongside him to do what I could do to equip him to put that sickness behind him. But along the way it also got me to thinking about whether or not Christ’s grace can redeem even the worst of people. I am not ready to confidently state that Jesus cannot redeem certain sins.

    As for the protections in the church, I am concerned that a focus primarily on the registered offenders can give a false sense of security. It’s like casting a net with a very large weave. It will keep out the big fish, but all the little ones will get through. The non-registered offenders can be very small and know how to swim through the nets. But if we cast a very tight net it will catch both the little fish and the big fish. If the proper controls are in place and if congregations are properly trained, then there will be almost no possibility for offenders to offend. Isn’t this the goal? I don’t think this is shooting for perfection, I think it is taking seriously the reality of the threat. And it’s taking seriously the statistical reality that probably every medium to large church already has offenders in attendance. That’s scary. And I don’t think that most churches handle these realities well, as evidenced by the plethora of abuse stories.

    This is thread is probably too old for anyone to read, but I thought I should close out my thoughts on this. Thanks to all for engaging.

  261. Ken F wrote:

    This is thread is probably too old for anyone to read, but I thought I should close out my thoughts on this. Thanks to all for engaging.

    I kept half-wanting to join in the thread whereof you spake, but never quite managed to string together a comment I was happy with. In a way, I still haven’t. But…

    Point 1 of 2: Ministry to offenders
    I found your story challenging and intriguing. I note that you didn’t actually say you had a ministry to sex offenders in general but only to this one individual, and in fact you yourself didn’t really call it a ministry. I also note that you never said you felt led to help this offender instead of helping victims. Which brings me to…

    Point 2 of 2: The false antithesis
    I agree with your (and Christiane’s) point, or at least your implicit point, that it is not an either/or. It’s true that – for a variety of reasons that have been discussed here before, and probably will be again – too many church settings have been toxic to victims of abuse, and in a very specific sense: that is, they shower the perpetrators with love, grace, acceptance and respect, and do so right in front of the victims, whilst showing none – NONE – of those things to the victims. But this is not the only way to minister to perpetrators: it is perfectly possible to minister to them in prison, and to do so – as you did – while affirming that prison is exactly where they belong, and refusing to take anything other than a strong line with them. This does not re-victimise their victims, nor does it imply that you don’t care about the victims.

    Point 3 of 2: The power of the Cross
    I, too, dislike the idea of telling Jesus he is powerless, and/or forbidden, to save a person. (I realise you didn’t put it in those words.) There is, if I read scribsher aright, good biblical evidence that not all sins are equal. Victims of child abuse are not “just as sinful” as their abusers, and your comments here do not imply that they are.

  262. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In a way, I still haven’t. But…

    Nick,
    Thanks for your thoughts. You wrote a great summary of what I was trying to communicate.

    I was trying to sort out why I felt so badly misunderstood by others on this thread. It dawned on me that I have never attended a church that ministered to abusers at the expense of victims. Churches I have attended have had compassion for victims, but only to a point. The general vibe I’ve gotten over the years is that victims should not talk too much about it because it makes others uncomfortable, and victims need to heal quickly. It’s an unhealthy way to minister to victims because it does not give them the time and space needed to work through the lifelong effects of trauma. Perpetrators/abusers in the churches I have attended were considered scum of the earth with no voice or rights, and the vibe I got was that it was bad to be around them for any reason. That was unhealthy behavior as well.

    Velour’s experience sounds like a good example of a completely dysfunctional church. I’ve never attended a church like that. My wife said it’s because she has a good nose for abusive systems. I think she is right – she kept us away from the worst of the churches.

  263. Jamie Carter wrote:

    I wonder if there will be an authority/submission structure in Trinity Church.

    It’s already in place.
    Driscoll would not have started it without him having TOTAL control.