Elizabeth Lee wrote:

First?

And I was even quoted. I feel all special.

“Perry Noble refused, over a prolonged period of time, to do the right thing. He knew he was in trouble and he chose to continue in his abuse of alcohol while creating problems in his marriage. This does not bode well for the future..”

This part really bothers me.
Will PN take rehab seriously, or does he just consider it to be an uncomfortable necessity he has to deal with in order to regain his position?
Apparently, he didn’t seek help or put out any effort to change his ways until he was fired and his behavior, to some extent, was exposed. Never mind Newspring ……. for the sake of his family, I truly hope this is a serious, life-altering wake up call for Noble.

Thank you of the video. I have not seen that before and it was very poignant.

Couple of posts for you….

SGM is imploding, documents have been dumped on the internet and people are learning about Mahaney’s criminal accusations. Against all this you have the Senior Pastor of Clovis Evangelical Free in Clovis, CA still proclaiming Mahnaey’s Humility and recommending him to his congregation. This post poses the question…does the Senior Pastor have the capability to practice discernment?

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/07/13/is-wil-owens-the-senior-pastor-of-clovis-evangelical-free-still-foaming-at-the-mouth-over-c-j-mahaney/

At what point should someone be qualified for leadership? A charismatic personality is certainly not one of the qualificTions.@ FW Rez:

I want to reply to a few things in Stetzer’s post:

I get that Perry’s approach to ministry has—at times—been a lightning rod, and I’ve discussed that with him, but this is not the time for such comments or speculation.

I feel that, on the contrary, this is the teachable moment to make the connection from cause to effect, so that lessons can be learned. This is one way that people mature, by seeing and learning, so that we don’t all have to make the same mistakes in order to learn from it.

I have not spoken about how alcoholism/addiction affected my family. It’s not something I think about much anymore yet these last few posts have made me realize that the ghosts will always be there.

One thing I want to say is that in our family, we didn’t talk about the elephant in the room. It was bad that the elephant was there but somehow it was considered much worse to acknowledge it openly and discuss it. Well, the elephant doesn’t go away when you stop talking. Silence only stops you from being able to process it and learn from the situation. I think that it’s okay to talk about it.

His church and his pastors will sort out the details, and we should trust the Lord in His guidance of that process. They don’t need any of us being armchair pastors, speculating on how we think this happened or what we think they should do.

Discussing what has happened and learning from it does not have to be an “armchair” thing. Speculation will happen whether it’s out loud or not. We all want to know how and why one thing leads to another. One way to quiet speculations is to just tell the truth.

We have one role right now as fellow Christians, and for many of us, as fellow pastors. That role is to pray.

I agree that prayer is one important thing we should do. But it is not the only thing. We should also think about what has happened. We should think about the warning signs we may have missed and ask ourselves why we missed them. We should think about how we might see things differently in future. We should think about our roles in the situation, if we were involved. We should think about what sorts of systems might lead to or encourage this situation to happen and what sorts might tend to prevent it. We should take the opportunity to learn about the issue, how it affects people, what helps, what makes it worse, how best to care for those who become entrapped. It might be a time to do some soul searching of ones’ own. I guess what I’m saying is it should be a learning experience.

I can’t go back to those days of silently ignoring the obvious. I need to be able to talk and process.

Two thoughts; First people seem to think forgiveness means protecting the sinner from the consequences of their sin. That is a dangerously flawed understanding of forgiveness. David was forgiven of the Bathsheba affair; but the affair had far-reaching consequences for David, his family and the Kingdom. It is also interesting that while people want the sinner, in this case Perry Noble, to avoid consequences, they give no thought to the painful, long lasting consequences that his victims will have to suffer. That is indeed a simplistic understanding of sin and God’s vehement hatred of sin.

Secondly, as an armchair psychologist, all these rock star mega-church pastor’s seem to have one trait (personality disorder?) in common, Narcissism

@ Leslie:
What qualifies for leadership is how many will follow and how many even pay for such a leader.

Bill M wrote:

A problem of our times is that personality has superseded character in importance and if you are picking someone to serve you should be looking for the latter quality, someone of character.

Amen and amen.

When I was reading the snippets on the code of conduct in the SBC entities, I could not help but think about traits like character, transparency, honesty, etc. That are so very sorely lacking in too many SBC entity leaders and SBC pastors.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

. It grieves me more than many things that might seem worse to read that phrase Let’s make Perry Noble great again! on a petition from within their number. How would they have reacted to a petition saying Let’s worship Bahá’u’lláh as well as Jesus! ? How did such grotesque theology fester in their midst? What else do people believe in that congregation?

Exactly. You have nailed it.

One thing that concerns me. After what the staffers at NS did to James Duncan, I would be watching my back if I were the Deebs. The elders may have fired Noble but how many of them were involved or knew about the James Duncan situation?

Dan wrote:

Secondly, as an armchair psychologist, all these rock star mega-church pastor’s seem to have one trait (personality disorder?) in common, Narcissism

Or Borderline. Or both. With a splash of Histrionic “center of the universe.”

Gram3 wrote:

Or Borderline. Or both. With a splash of Histrionic “center of the universe.”

I wonder about those who want PN back ASAP. Do they attend just for the entertainment? Drunks usually make great entertainers, and if PN cleans up his act, he might lose some entertainment value.

ishy wrote:

This just leaves in constant prayer for Christians to be more watchful, and to be able to see more deception. And for myself, I started going to small mainline churches to get away from all of it.

Sadly, I do not think the SBC seminaries are training their ministers to be servants.

ishy wrote:

I’m still actually a bit surprised that Noble got fired, and could get fired. I bet a number of the largest megachurches couldn’t do the same.

I was surprised, too, which tells me there is much more to the story. When your yes men turn on you and get rid of the big money draw, there are other factors in play. These are people of easy believism who would celebrate cheap grace with an ‘I am sorry and going right to rehab’. These types don’t care about other victims unless, of course, it was themselves.

It gives some insight into new spring to go back and read James Duncan story. start with what James Duncan wrote about new spring and then how they responded to it.

http://www.pajamapages.com/holy-rage-at-the-spring-2/

It really helps to know what sort of people and place we are talking about. It is not hard to see how it could have easily imploded at the top level when you take a good look at the violent personalities running it.

@ Lydia:
After reading the link, the culture of hate promoted by the leadership in the church and the community are shocking.

This is the antithesis of the New Testament – where Christians are known by their love, particularly for one another.

This link on the Gospel Coalition’s website from a couple of years ago has an interesting comment: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/trevinwax/2014/05/09/know-your-southern-baptists-perry-noble/

This is the only comment posted: “I rarely write to criticize, but I think Noble is worth looking into a little more deeply. I am not an attack dog etc, but I have read quite a bit of negative stuff on Noble, as you will find in this link (although I have read much elsewhere. I don’t care if you even publish my comment, I just want to make you aware because I respect you and love your blog. Profiling him gives him credibility, which he greatly lacks. His growth is not through the Gospel, but through showmanship.”

Bill M wrote:

On the other hand if you define pastor as a showman that will bring in the biggest crowd, then by all means go for the charismatic personality, but don’t be disappointed when it becomes all about him and Christ is left in the shadows.

Or when the showman drops his stage persona, and you’re confronted with whatever’s behind that mask.

Caveat emptor.

Dan wrote:

It is also interesting that while people want the sinner, in this case Perry Noble, to avoid consequences, they give no thought to the painful, long lasting consequences that his victims will have to suffer.

I have women and men friends who are recovering alcoholics. I have attended open Alcoholics Anonymous meetings with them (open to non-alcoholics), women-only A.A. meetings, heard their stories, and read them. They are grateful for the people who help them “hit bottom”. It’s not uncommon for them to return to the thank the police officer who arrested them, or someone else that had them face the consequences of their drinking.

I’ve heard them describe the people who enabled them as people who were trying to kill them.

There’s a lot of be said for the “wounds of a friend”.

Based on what I read about the James Duncan event, I feel nothing for Newspring or its ex pastor. These churches are nothing more tax break money machines. My recent interactions with religion have been lukewarm at best.
Had an experience at a friend’s funeral last that really was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. Nothing will get me into a church. And I will do my level best to protect my kids from church as well.

dee wrote:

A long time ago, we discovered that Noble had set up a system in which it was very difficult to fire him. I really need to find that. My guess is that he screwed up so badly that he would be forced to leave if all of it got out.

Intriguing. Are you saying that Noble possibly did (or was consistently doing) something so egregious that, if the congregation ever got wind of it, they’d all leave en masse? So that, even if his behaviour didn’t harm the elders/deacons directly, they were in desperate fear of losing their meal ticket, and had to “get in front of it”?

No idea what a foul-up of that magnitude might be… Wait, this whole comment of mine is speculation! Ed the Great and Powerful warned us we must avoid this at all costs! Dee, please remove this comment. Forget I ever, ever wrote it. It never existed. These aren’t the droids you’re looking for. Move along.

@ dee:
I would have loved a class like that.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

Or when the showman drops his stage persona, and you’re confronted with whatever’s behind that mask.

This brings up a question for me, what was behind Noble’s mask. Similar to how some people confuse an actor with a role they portray, way too may confuse a pastor’s stage persona with the real person.

Perry’s operation was abusive, its treatment of James Duncan is definitive proof, but what of Noble himself. He appears to be a magnetic but very flawed individual, ill suited for all the attention he cultivated. Was he narcissistic and abusive to those around him like so many mega church CEOs are later found to be?

@ JYJames:
What is missing from that story are now dead links as to the sorts of things James Duncan was writing about NewSpring. They marketed themselves in a very provocative and perverted way. It goes to the old saying on megas, “what you win them with is what you win them to”.

I don’t remember the specific campaigns they were using but it was on billboards and such all around town. One of them had to do with “good sex”. James Duncan was targeted because he had the nerve to disagree publicly with their approach to church marketing.

Note a few things in the story. When James Duncan filed a complaint, the sheriff actually asked him if he was sure he wanted to go through with it because NS would retaliate. So it is not like their Antics were not unknown even to law enforcement.

The investigator assigned to the complaint went to New Spring. Welcome to the world of the mega. The tentacles are usually so long and deep it is not even worth going up against them. They have Protections in law enforcement, local television personalities, the well-heeled business communities and such.

Just a glimpse inside ONE situation we know about speaks volumes about whyi they really are and what is their normal.

Muff Potter wrote:

Lydia wrote:

It really helps to know what sort of people and place we are talking about. It is not hard to see how it could have easily imploded at the top level when you take a good look at the violent personalities running it.

They are as loathe-worthy as the criminals who run and profit from clandestine dog fighting rings.

My sentiments exactly. Except those criminals don’t slap a plastic fish on their activities.

Lydia wrote:

Note a few things in the story. When James Duncan filed a complaint, the sheriff actually asked him if he was sure he wanted to go through with it because NS would retaliate. So it is not like their Antics were not unknown even to law enforcement.

With a congregation that is 30,000 strong, I wonder how many law enforcement officers and attorneys are members at Newspring?

Lydia wrote:

The tentacles are usually so long and deep it is not even worth going up against them.

Sounds like Scientology.
Regarding the marketing approach, sounds like that guy Driscoll when in Seattle, and the other one D. Wilson with some of the comments he makes about the Christian husband and his wife and their interactions. Very strange marketing, indeed.
Why don’t other “leaders” call them out on this? Silence is complicity? Cowards?

@ Bill M:
I have a theory about this even though I am not educated in such things but have been around it too long not to have noticed patterns. These guys start young. Driscoll did, too. So have most of the YRR. Most of them start out thinking they have something people need from them.

( I think of Rick Warren when he started out he went door-to-door in certain yuppie neighborhoods asking people what they would like to experience at church. And he designed such a church with a lot of mentoring from Peter Drucker and Robert Schuller)

They have some sort of drawing shtick they use that is cool. They end up with no experience with the typical path to success full of hard knocks and such. Before their brains are fully developed, they have a large following. I liken it to giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. With these guys they stay Perpetual teenagers.

The really scary part about them is they are giving large groups of people what they want and are willing to pay for. It’s those masses of people who scare me the most.

Watching PN face book video reminded me of Driscoll. These big famous guys ALWAYS bring up money and continue giving in their so called apologies. If you really hear them you see what they are really about. Numbers equals big bucks. No one mentions REPENT and go and sin no more. They are false teachers that as the Bible says masquerade as angles of light. Lets all read our Bibles daily and humble ourselves for service so we can stop being spectators and start being Christ followers.

@ Nancy2:
My experience, too. An exciting occassion full of support and love. Like family moving away but not too far.

Edward wrote:

In reference to the guy that thinks fermentation was impossible before the Fall, is he really saying that even plants couldn’t die? I’d like to have a conversation

Apparently, living beings did not need food, and the first thing to die was the forbidden fruit that Adam allowed Eve to kill and eat?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Bill M wrote:
“Just because someone has charisma and can bring in the people does not mean they should be pastors.”
Why is it that so many automatically pick charismatic personalities as leaders?
Same reason as the Gobbledy Gooker, the Necrophilia Angle, and all the other pro wrestling angles cataloged over at Wrestlecrap.com:
BUTTS IN SEATS.
BUTTS IN SEATS WITH $$$$$.

Editorial change:

BUTT$ IN $EAT$.
BUTT$ IN $EAT$ WITH $$$$$.

.

Jack wrote:

Based on what I read about the James Duncan event, I feel nothing for Newspring or its ex pastor. These churches are nothing more tax break money machines. My recent interactions with religion have been lukewarm at best.
Had an experience at a friend’s funeral last that really was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. Nothing will get me into a church. And I will do my level best to protect my kids from church as well.

I hear you. Many churches are very dangerous places for adults and children.

@ Velour:
The guy who cost Target $1 billion walked away with a $70 million dollar payout after the failed expansion into Canada. This corruption isn’t unique to religion but the cult of personality is exacerbated by the implied mandate from heaven. The charlatan who runs the mini mega in my city has a 9 bedroom mansion. Not bad for a guy who used to be a hospital orderly. The entitlement is appalling. At least Target had shareholders they had to answer to.
Noble and these other clowns supposedly answer to God. But God seems to be content to let folks like mirele do the hard work. I’m not overly impressed.

If I eat a grape, does it die?

Lydia wrote:

Before their brains are fully developed, they have a large following.

Great line.

Edward wrote:

I’d like to have a conversation about basic biology with that dude.

The sad part is that “dude” is a SBC pastor. His comment shows abject stupidity IMO.

Jack wrote:

@ Velour:
The guy who cost Target $1 billion walked away with a $70 million dollar payout after the failed expansion into Canada. This corruption isn’t unique to religion but the cult of personality is exacerbated by the implied mandate from heaven. The charlatan who runs the mini mega in my city has a 9 bedroom mansion. Not bad for a guy who used to be a hospital orderly. The entitlement is appalling. At least Target had shareholders they had to answer to.
Noble and these other clowns supposedly answer to God. But God seems to be content to let folks like mirele do the hard work. I’m not overly impressed.

Spot on, Jack.

Interesting take on Target in Canada. I couldn’t figure out why they expanded so quickly in Canada, sunk in so much money, instead of starting just a few key stores and seeing how those did. I’m not a business person, but even I’m not that stupid and whomever was behind that, including the failure.

Ken F wrote:

John MacArthur’s website identified a problem with Noble nearly five years ago: https://www.gty.org/blog/B111028/the-elephant-in-the-elephant-room?Term=perry%20noble
Here’s a quote:
“Will Noble repent? From what I saw on that video, he didn’t seem to be in a listening frame of mind; he was all about justifying himself, even bragging about his profane decision. And even if he were inclined toward repentance, I’d think it would be difficult to be confronted and find your way to a humble and contrite spirit while several video cameras are capturing your every expression for a live audience.”

While John MacArthur & Company are good at identifying abusive pastors and calling them out on it – Mark Driscoll and Perry Noble – they fail to scrutinize their own abusive system. The Master’s College and The Master’s Seminary is all about turning out Stepford-ish cult members, with no real bona fide education and critical thinking skills, who are abusive to others. Add in Nouthetic Counseling (also known as the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, a crime in my state CA that can be prosecuted as a felony or a misdemeanor) and the fact that JMac ratifies this dumb and dangerous practices that the Bible verses are sufficient for everything (it’s not). Then you add in the JMac & Co beliefs that women are to obey and submit in everything, including violating the Child Endangerment laws that can land her in jail or state prison and have Child Protective Services take away her kids.

John MacArthur teaches another Gospel, as do his adherents. He’s just very conservative and doesn’t like the crassness of some of his mega church pastors.

Edward wrote:

In reference to the guy that thinks fermentation was impossible before the Fall, is he really saying that even plants couldn’t die? I’d like to have a conversation about basic biology with that dude.

Animal and plant nutrition, thus animal and plant life, depends upon the death and consumption of other biological matter. There is no life with out death – physical or spiritual.

@ Velour:
Target’s Canadian misadventure is a little out of scope as a Christian trend but has Newspring also over expanded? A company I used to work for had a megalomaniac president. When the board removed him, his ‘chosen ones’ also got the heave ho. I wonder if there will be a purge at this corporation as well.

Todd Wilhelm wrote:

Is this the same Ed Stetzer that knew that the ‘Boy Who Came Back From Heaven’ book was false, and chose to keep selling it anyway?

Ed Stetzer is very transparent. Most of the NeoCal crowd makes more sense if you think of them in context of an unhealthy business culture (think Mad Men), rather than as spiritual servants.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

. Most of the NeoCal crowd makes more sense if you think of them in context of an unhealthy business culture (think Mad Men), rather than as spiritual servants.

Excellent analogy.

Dan wrote:

your statement far exceeds my knowledge of the matter.

I won’t lie – I had to check my facts on Wikipedia! I’d call my nuclear physics rudimentary at best…

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

(think Mad Men)

with alcohol to boot. Got it.

All this with Mr. Noble and others has shown me is that the professional Christians will always get protected unless they start to accept people who are gay, in many cases accept women as leaders / pastors and the number one reason stop generating income. Other than that they will be allowed to come back, have their supporters defend them etc. If this was happening to a regular person in the congregation they would be trashed with maybe a phone call. When I got the boot after ten years of service I got a message left on my answering machine. I will agree my sin was far more vile than anything Mr. Noble did, I called corporate and expressed my concerns about safety issues. That got me booted. Eventually, I reconciled after apologizing for being alive and breathing. I admit this makes me a coward but it hurt too much being separate, another moral failing on my part.

Back when I was a nieve, no stupid young Christian, all I ever wanted was to serve Christ and others, after 36 years in the or around the industry I have repented of such emotionalism. Well, actually I haven’t I just sort of pretend. I don’t understand why religion needs to always hurt so much?

Muff Potter wrote:

Velour wrote:
Add in Nouthetic Counseling (also known as the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, a crime in my state CA that can be prosecuted as a felony or a misdemeanor) and the fact that JMac ratifies this dumb and dangerous practices that the Bible verses are sufficient for everything (it’s not).
Like I keep sayin’, sooner or later these guys are gonna’ eff-up big time and the courts will no longer act with their former timidity toward religious non-profits. And the gavel will come down hard and heavy.

For my part, I turned in my ex-pastors/elders to CA Medical Board for the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, which can be prosecuted as a felony or a misdemeanor. CA takes this very seriously. You don’t diagnosis and practice without medical school, training, and licensing by CA. They will sail down peoples’ backs for it, including arrests and prosecution. Serious business.

siteseer wrote:

I need to be able to talk and process.

The Body of Christ works through its members taking responsibility FOR one another when some fall into difficulty, not in a ‘controlling’ way so much as a way that provides the support necessary for returning to ‘the good Way’. God’s gift of ‘reason’ and His gifts of discernment in association with the function of conscience, does have a purpose in the Body of Christ. The ‘forces’ at work within the Body are not those of ‘control’ and ‘domination’, no. The ‘forces’ at work in the Body are far stronger and grow out of compassion, and patience, and long-suffering, and above all, loving-kindness, a kindness like that of Our God.

We in the Body of Christ are obligated to help one another using our gifts of reason and ‘processing’. And IF these gifts are used in accordance with Our Lord’s teaching and example, then we can’t go wrong.

@ Christiane:
This comment and the one above, thanks, Christiane. Well said, well received. God bless you.

Christiane wrote:

ou can’t take the teaching of ‘submission’ to ‘authority’ even though it violates conscience and run it through the ‘lens’ of Christ, no. The ‘teaching’ will crash up against Our Lord Himself, and shatter.
The ‘leaders’ HAD to remove that phrase in order to institute the profoundly altered treatment of women established in the 2000BF&M, with all of its extreme consequences.

The leaders introduced a semi-Arian heresy, the Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son to make women second-class citizens.

I do not want to divert thread as well; but the production of ethanol is not a product of the fall/flood/degradation.. It is a product of anaerobic metabolism… We humans do it too! Just that we make lactic acid!!!

The stupidity of that comment is very humerous, if it was not so serious and an embarassement to Christianity!!

Lydia wrote:

@ Christiane:
Very few people paid any attention to the BFM at all outside the seminaries until after the CR was well entrenched when Mohler saw it as an opportunity.

The CR destroyed the SBC IMO!

@ Jeffrey Chalmers:
I am pretty ignorant of science so I reserve the right to sound like a rube on such issues. However, the idea that there were no such natural biological functions before the fall is the result of a literal interpretation of an ancient creation story featuring Yahweh. It is also the result of listening tocertain Scholars who insist there is no hyperbole or other literary devices used in interpreting scripture passed down by ancients in oral tradition.

There is more acceptance in certain circles with claiming Jesus is a Lesser God (ESS) than daring to suggest Genesis is not all literal.

Mohler blew off ESS as no big deal providing safe haven for guys like Ware, Grudem, Burk, etc. Just differences in interpretation. Not heresy. But if you are OEC, watch out. You don’t accept the plain reading of scripture and your salvation is questionable.

It is ridiculous.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Ken F wrote:
John MacArthur’s website identified a problem with Noble nearly five years ago:
John MacAurthur has his own arrogance and works of the flesh to repent of before throwing stones at Noble. MacAurthur and his henchmen have been every bit as wicked, cruel, and wildly unhinged as anything coming out of NewSpring.

That is so true.

Lydia wrote:

The Neo Cal stealth takeover is a direct result of the CR. Dr. Dilday even predicted it when few were paying attention

http://www.christianethicstoday.com/cetart/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.main&ArtID=582

Written in 2002. Check out point 5 as you scroll down

Lydia: Thank you. Dr. Dilday in point number 5 sure got it right.

Lydia:

Dilday said:’This revised statement of faith, called The Baptist Faith and Message 2000 (BFM2000), is being used as an official creed to enforce loyalty to the party in power. To refuse is to risk isolation or even expulsion from the denominational circle.”
The 2000 BF&M is definitely a creed and very few oppose it, only at the lose of their livelihoods.

@ Velour:
Oh my word. That clearly describes a sociopath. I’m so sorry you experienced that.

Lydia wrote:

Mohler blew off ESS as no big deal providing safe haven for guys like Ware, Grudem, Burk, etc. Just differences in interpretation. Not heresy.

“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
The unavoidable conclusion is that Mohler believes the essence of Jesus, the one through whom all things are created, is not essential doctrine.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

Intriguing. Are you saying that Noble possibly did (or was consistently doing) something so egregious that, if the congregation ever got wind of it, they’d all leave en masse? So that, even if his behaviour didn’t harm the elders/deacons directly, they were in desperate fear of losing their meal ticket, and had to “get in front of it”?

What keeps a guy like Perry Noble in the pulpit is the people. And because the people outnumber the Pastor, the Pastor has to use tactics to keep the people under his lordship. As a king, the people are expected to slavishly serve the will of the Master, and routinely give a percentage of their income in homage. And they do this willingly, because they think they’re all good people in doing so.

No surprise then, when their anointed leader falls. Do they say, “Oh my, what a shock! We’re appalled!”? No. They rally around him, believing him to be a good guy because they’re all in it together. They’re all part of an operation they’ve come to depend on to make themselves feel good. After all, it was a “church” y’all, so it can’t be bad, right?

Well, what’s also in the Bible is a verse about leaven, and how it works it’s way through the whole lump. The longer you’re in it, the worse off you are, and it’s my guess the members are all basically enibriated like their Pastor. I mean, why else would people go back for that stuff week after week and pay for it? I’d say the church itself is a substance to them, and they’re all substance abusers. It’s what’s called Toxic Faith, and every single last one of them, from Pastor to pewishioner, needs to enter rehab. Time to drain the spring at Newspring!

Paula Rice wrote:

The longer you’re in it, the worse off you are, and it’s my guess the members are all basically enibriated like their Pastor.

I refer to it as Spiritual Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. Odorless, tasteless, and deadly. You’re knocked out before you know it.

@ mot:
The man saw it in 2002! Isn’t he the one that got locked out if his presidents office at SWBTS?

JYJames wrote:

mot wrote:

used as an official creed to enforce loyalty to the party in power

Why is this not called a cult?

It has been a massive undertaking using Thought Reform. Get them young and indoctrinate guided as education and spirituality. The older guys get on the bus because of job security or a place at the table. Even Patterson was promoting Mohler because of inerrancy and comp. How can there be inerrancy with such wide soteriologucal doctrinal differences in interpretations?

Lydia wrote:

It has been a massive undertaking using Thought Reform. Get them young and indoctrinate guided as education and spirituality. The older guys get on the bus because of job security or a place at the table. Even Patterson was promoting Mohler because of inerrancy and comp. How can there be inerrancy with such wide soteriologucal doctrinal differences in interpretations?

It is all about power and authority and money.

Paula Rice wrote:

I’d say the church itself is a substance to them, and they’re all substance abusers.

Oh, my goodness!

@ Friend:

There will always be plenty of Perry’s out there, sadly. Let’s hope the masses of followers eventually grow up and seek the real Jesus Christ and not more showman entertainers.

Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

I do not want to divert thread as well; but the production of ethanol is not a product of the fall/flood/degradation.. It is a product of anaerobic metabolism… We humans do it too! Just that we make lactic acid!!!
The stupidity of that comment is very humerous, if it was not so serious and an embarassement to Christianity!!

Even if true, Jesus presumably had no serious issues with this fermentation-related byproduct of the fall of humankind when He turned water to wine. He’d have been ousted from most of these pharisaical cults and missionary groups with His first miracle!

Why Noble can’t just stay low for awhile and then have a little wine with dinner…….

Dee, perhaps you might want to explain the progression of alcoholism to everyone. I see lots of wounded but also those that just don’t get it e.g. with alcoholism you can’t go back to the way you like to pretend it was because it is progressive and that means……..

Velour wrote:

Outsiders have even said: Is your ex-senior pastor a child abuser?
They think the totality of his behavior (not caring about kids, the obey and submit stuff for women, no healthy boundaries)…spells a very dangerous person. They could be right. Time will tell.

He sounds VERY dangerous.

Lydia wrote:

http://www.christianethicstoday.com/cetart/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.main&ArtID=582

This is an excellent resource.
I suppose the good Dr. Dilday was also disposed of in the massacre that followed the CR. What became of him?

Christiane wrote:

I suppose the good Dr. Dilday was also disposed of in the massacre that followed the CR. What became of him?

He NEVER existed, Comrade.
doubleplusunperson.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

doubleplusunperson.

That’s it. The ‘un-personing’ of women, of moderates, of anyone who has an opinion of their own that is not in sync with Great Leader.

HEADLESS, you can call it with the smallest phrase. Genius. And at 2 in the morning. Impressive. 🙂

Velour wrote:

Add in Nouthetic Counseling (also known as the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, a crime in my state CA that can be prosecuted as a felony or a misdemeanor) and the fact that JMac ratifies this dumb and dangerous practices that the Bible verses are sufficient for everything (it’s not). Then you add in the JMac & Co beliefs that women are to obey and submit in everything, including violating the Child Endangerment laws that can land her in jail or state prison and have Child Protective Services take away her kids.

“Blessed are ye who are PERSECUTED for Righteousness’ sake…”
(Especially when it’s only a woman being persecuted by the Antichrist State, not the male Doctor Pastors…)

Edward wrote:

In any event, I have to shake my head at those in the SBC suggesting that the issue with Perry Noble was that he should have been a teetotaler. A spectacular exercise in missing the point.

But fitting right in with the “Christian = DRY” tradition.
The same Obedience to GAWD that gave us Prohibition.

Gram3 wrote:

JYJames wrote:

@ Dan:
They did the math, ousted the star, and cashed in?

My money is on the euphemism “posture toward his marriage.”

As in Live Boy, Dead Woman, or “I did not Know her in the Biblical sense (just used another orifice)”?

Gram3 wrote:

My money is on the euphemism “posture toward his marriage

That is a very strange thing to say. It sort of screams affair or abuse. I can’t imagine what else it could be unless he’s decided polygamy is ok, like the Munster Germany anabaptists…

Furthermore, this really has nothing to do with alcoholism. In fact, I’d say this is where the sins lies. I’d say what’s really happening is that they are exploiting the use of alcohol and alcoholism by getting you to think that’s the real issue here.

The fact is, many people do struggle with addiction and substance abuse.

The fact is, Jesus Christ frees people from their enslavement to sin.

The fact is, the church should be a place where people can experience healing and restoration.

But the ministry of Newspring Church is based on something other than Jesus and something other than the gospel.

NewSpring wants to advertise itself as the source of life to those struggling with sin, and rope in addicts based false promises that tithing and attending and serving are the keys to freedom from addiction!

Perry Noble was delivered from his dependency and substance abuse. If it can happen to him, it can happen to the best of us, so no shame! Let’s increase the membership at NewSpring because it’s a church for everyone, and we’re all sinners!

NewSpring is your salvation. Come, attend. Come back if you’ve stopped attending. Watch our newest video and see how returning to NewSpring and attending NewSpring is the answer to all your problems. Get saved, be baptized! And yes, as Southern Baptists, we believe alcohol is of the DEBBEL! Jesus set Pastor P free and everyone forgave him, and the same can be true for youuuuu!

False hopes. False promises. False Gospel. False teaching. False, false, false. It’s all a pile of cooked up, southern-fried falsehood designed to bring in more tithes and new members!

mot wrote:

It is all about power and authority and money.

Best succinct description yet. Keep in mind that I have years of experience in SBC congregations and seminaries. SBTS was the last nail in the coffin of my religion. The “leaders” there openly and transparently valued money and power. They wrapped it up in religious language, but anyone with two brain cells to rub together for friction could see right through it.

William wrote:

The idea is to find a way to say wine in the Bible was non-alcoholic. Nah…I can’t swallow that.

I’ve also heard that it wasn’t a high alcohol content, which I guess means you shouldn’t drink at all. Somehow.

The way I read Jesus turning water into wine is that people were saying usually later on when everybody is getting tipsy they put out the cheap wine. I don’t know how you can read that as non alcoholic.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

You mean the FT?

ah, you mean the ‘fundamentalist take-over’ ?

even in the beginning, some good people were very poorly treated by the take-over group …. likely a sad fore-shadowing of the more serious neo-Cal abuses to come

Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

I do not want to divert thread as well; but the production of ethanol is not a product of the fall/flood/degradation.. It is a product of anaerobic metabolism… We humans do it too! Just that we make lactic acid!!!

The stupidity of that comment is very humerous, if it was not so serious and an embarassement to Christianity!!

Between this, yec, and ‘sanctified’ testosterone, I feel like they need to maybe teach some legit science in seminary. Just so their kids don’t come out sounding quite so dumb on basic things.

Jack wrote:

But God seems to be content to let folks like mirele do the hard work.

Back in the day, when people started showing up outside Scientology shops (I can’t call them “churches” either), the picketers were mostly people who had minority religious opinions or were flat-out atheists, agnostics, secularists or “don’t cares”. But we all recognized that Scientology was a Bad Thing. It used to bother me that the churches couldn’t see this and join us. *shrug* I’ve gotten over that.

I mention this because a friend of mine, a motorcycle-riding stone atheist, might drive out from Southern California to picket with me on August 7. She’s got lots of experience picketing Scientology. She used to dress up as Xenu the Galactic Emperor at some pickets and drive Scientology nuts. I promised to put her up in a nice hotel (they’re so cheap this time of year).

Nancy2 wrote:

Over on Pravda (SBCVoices), Volfan007 claims that Jesus turned water into …. wait for it …… grape juice! they just called grape juice wine back then.

Those who teach that are wearing “kick me” signs on their backs. They make themselves look like fools. The vow of a Nazirite showed that they knew about a wide variety of grape products way back then:
Numbers 6:3 – he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes.”

So either the inspired author of Numbers got it wrong, or else the teachers of such nonsense are either willfully or unknowingly teaching something contrary to the Bible. I don’t know which does more damage, deceit or incompetence.

@ Bill M:

“On the other hand if you define pastor as a showman that will bring in the biggest crowd, then by all means go for the charismatic personality, but don’t be disappointed when it becomes all about him and Christ is left in the shadows.”
++++++++++++++++++++

church as a show…. there is so erroneous.

let’s toss the word “church” for the moment. the whole idea of people coming together around faith and for spiritual reasons, as described in the NT, is something like a band’s ‘jam session’.

let’s think of it as a group of jazz musicians. perhaps they start out together on something familiar, before long one instrumentalist gets an idea and launches out giving expression to it, and the others pull back. the others begin to respond to it. music is being created in the moment. then another gets an idea. then another. then they all come back together as a whole. then, another idea…

whatever ‘leader’ is there is minimally involved — maybe a word to facilitate one musician expanding on something, or another musician to hold back. then when they’re done, ‘leader’ might bring up discussion on how/when to go forward. finally, ‘leader’ makes sure lights are off, building locked.

they did it together. something is created every time.

Bill M wrote:

Sarcasm aside also note the wedding was not during the grape harvest but a month or two later. Any body ever left grape juice out of the refrigerator for a few days?

Now there is a point I never even thought of!

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Velour wrote:
Add in Nouthetic Counseling (also known as the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, a crime in my state CA that can be prosecuted as a felony or a misdemeanor) and the fact that JMac ratifies this dumb and dangerous practices that the Bible verses are sufficient for everything (it’s not). Then you add in the JMac & Co beliefs that women are to obey and submit in everything, including violating the Child Endangerment laws that can land her in jail or state prison and have Child Protective Services take away her kids.
“Blessed are ye who are PERSECUTED for Righteousness’ sake…”
(Especially when it’s only a woman being persecuted by the Antichrist State, not the male Doctor Pastors…)

Indeed, H.U.G.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

But they agree on a dogma much more important:

“The only goal of Power is POWER.”

And

“The rule of The Party is Forever.”

I am hoping and praying that this will be MacArthur’s undoing. The YRRs at one point will threaten his power. If they start to implode he will have to pile on so as not to go down with the ship.

amen to these thoughts…. Do you how silly it is to say that T-Rex was chasing Noah around on the ark!

b>Ken F wrote:

Lydia wrote:
Why is OE such a threat to their faith?
I think it’s because they have been taught bundle of lies packaged in such a way as to make it sound like an essential element of faith. None of us wants to be called a heretic. None of us want to lose our standing before God. So these unscrupulous teachers capitalize on “loss aversion” to convince the uniformed that there is no other spiritually correct way to believe.
It’s hard to come up with a “doctrine” more loaded with inconsistencies and fraud than young earth creationism.

Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

amen to these thoughts…. Do you how silly it is to say that T-Rex was chasing Noah around on the ark!

And then there was Job. Was that leviathan a hippo, an alligator, or a DINOSAUR?

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

William wrote:

@Edward

The non-fermentation business is an outgrowth of the young earth stuff. I don’t buy it and don’t know a lot of sbcers who do, although the YE true believers imbibe this stuff quite heavily. The idea is to find a way to say wine in the Bible was non-alcoholic. Nah…I can’t swallow that.

But it DOES fit right in with the “Christian = Dry” tradition in American history.
How else can God’s Speshul Pets show their Moral Superiority over the rest of us?

Or it could be because so many who drink make ***** of themselves and many non drinkers come from alcoholic families where they endured abuse.. at least that has been what I’ve observed. You’ll be surprised how many children of alcoholics come to the church seeking safety and peace. Government statistics say that 1 out of 10 Americans are alcoholics… ooofta!

Nancy2 wrote:

Bill M wrote:

Note how the legalists who supposedly take the Bible literally can’t take a passage literally.

The Apostle Paul – inerrant, as written; he says what he means and means what he says.
Jesus Christ – waahhhhhllllll now, this is what he said, but ……..

FUNDAMENTALIST are frightening people. The FUNDAMENTALIST stole the SBC and look at the mess they have made of it.

@ elastigirl:

the real point is what does it mean to create disciples?

i hate that catch phrase. because, like all overused phrases, it becomes divorced from its original meaning. and i can’t say i really like the new meanings that develop through the overuse of the word(s).

seems to me the real point of it all is to facilitate opportunity for initiative and the industrious use of one’s skills (a mingling of spiritual and practical). it certainly is’t to sit still, receive and leave.

Ken F wrote:

Lydia wrote:

Why is OE such a threat to their faith?

I think it’s because they have been taught bundle of lies packaged in such a way as to make it sound like an essential element of faith. None of us wants to be called a heretic. None of us want to lose our standing before God.

Threat of Eternal Hell is quite a thoughtstopper motivator…

Bill M wrote:

Sarcasm aside also note the wedding was not during the grape harvest but a month or two later. Any body ever left grape juice out of the refrigerator for a few days?

Before or after REVEREND Welch?

mirele wrote:

the picketers were mostly people who had minority religious opinions or were flat-out atheists, agnostics, secularists or “don’t cares”. But we all recognized that Scientology was a Bad Thing. It used to bother me that the churches couldn’t see this and join us.

That’s because a LOT of churches either had tunnel vision on themselves and/or their Head Apostles/Prophets/Kings were salivating wishing they had Scientology’s clout.

I mention this because a friend of mine, a motorcycle-riding stone atheist, might drive out from Southern California to picket with me on August 7. She’s got lots of experience picketing Scientology. She used to dress up as Xenu the Galactic Emperor at some pickets and drive Scientology nuts

Have her bring her Hog next time she does it.

Biker Xenu would definitely get in the news.

(And sudden flash mobs a la Anonymous also really enturbulate the Clears & OTs.)

Lea wrote:

Between this, yec, and ‘sanctified’ testosterone,

AKA REVEREND Apostle/Pastor’s Precious Bodily Fluids.

Of which many REVERENDs are all too willing and eager to spread around.
(“I did not know that woman in a Biblical sense.” — Doug Phillips ESQUIRE)

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

(“I did not know that woman in a Biblical sense.” — Doug Phillips ESQUIRE)

Is this a real quote??? Man.

Lea wrote:

Between this, yec, and ‘sanctified’ testosterone, I feel like they need to maybe teach some legit science in seminary.

Haha, true. Although, this is elementary-level stuff, so they should already have a basic grasp of it.

Off topic for just a second. Kathi, who co-writes with Julie Anne over at Spiritual Sounding Board, posted this amazing Aretha Franklin song “How I Got Over”. (Mahalia Jackson’s beautiful song.)

Move the furniture, take off your shoes, and dance…people!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg5PZtSTTN4

Daisy wrote:

I’ve had drinkers act like I am a fuddy duddy, wet blanket, just because I don’t drink beer or whatever. Or because I am drinking soda at a party rather than beer.

Yeah I don’t drink either, due to an alcoholic Father & Grandfather. Why take the risk that I could be more prone to issues? But some people really don’t take kindly to my choice.

And I really hope Perry Noble sorts himself out, for the sake of his wife & kids. It was too late for my Mum & us, but if my Dad can get off alcohol & have a second family, so can anyone.

Edward wrote:

Lea wrote:
Between this, yec, and ‘sanctified’ testosterone, I feel like they need to maybe teach some legit science in seminary.
Haha, true. Although, this is elementary-level stuff, so they should already have a basic grasp of it.

You mean a bona fide education? Real scholarship? Critical thinking skills?

Not a chance at many of these “franchisee” schools, oops I mean “seminaries”.
The whole point at many of these seminaries (including John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary, the Southern Baptists seminary, and others) is to have a bunch of clones
with zero critical thinking skills. Stepford-husbands, one and all.

The seminaries would have to get serious about scholarship, hire men and women professors, drastically change how the seminaries operate, and risk losing power. And they simply don’t want that.

It’s all about mind-control and money-making.

Ken F wrote:

Velour wrote:
The seminaries would have to get serious about scholarship, hire men and women professors, drastically change how the seminaries operate, and risk losing power. And they simply don’t want that.
That’s never going to happen at John MacArthur’s The Masters Seminary. MacArthur’s website is riddled with fraudulent scientific claims. He dug in to YEC way too deep to ever back out.

I figured this out when I was at a joke of a NeoCalvinist church with the head pastor, an uneducated graduated of John MacArthur’s The Master’s College and The Master’s Seminary. The “cherry on the top” of his sub-par education is a “Ph.D.” purchased from an online diploma mill in Missouri for $299.

I come from a family in which even elderly women who were Christians in my family had hard science degrees from top universities and worked on teams of Nobel Prize-winning researchers. Even women scientists in my family didn’t believe this Young Earth Creation nonsense.

I look at the mountains and know that they are more than 6,000 years old. The word “yom” in Hebrew, used in the creation story, has 58 different meanings including “a long time”.

As reported by the Christian Post website:

“Perry Noble has reemerged on social media following his firing as pastor of NewSpring Church due to issues related to alcohol abuse, and revealed that he is checking into a treatment facility, and will fight for his family.”
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/#fkJ20JrxCoqmeKZk.99

Ok, good that he is seeking help. But, for once, just once, can these pastors who get in trouble PLEASE STAY OFF SOCIAL MEDIA AND JUST GO AWAY?!?!?!?!?

True dat Velour!

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

How did they keep grape juice from becoming wine way back before refrigeration? And in a super-hot climate, yet?

It was Gospel(TM) Grape-Juice(R).

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

How did they keep grape juice from becoming wine way back before refrigeration? And in a super-hot climate, yet?

Would love to hear Volfan007’s answer.

I knew a retired pastor who was a mega church preacher. He told me that oftentimes church growth has little to do with the pastor, but with the people in the pews. “Let’s make Perry Noble great again,” almost grazes the surface of pastor worship, which seems common in evangelical circles and is not a recent phenomenon. Megachurch pastors can be phenomenal on the pulpit but they have feet of clay like the rest of us. Wish pastors and their flock were more aware of a pastors humanity.

Velour wrote:

If Perry Noble was in a legitimate alcohol rehab program, in-patient, he wouldn’t be permitted to be on social media.

But if he’s a ManaGAWD in a Biblical Noutheic rehab…
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!!!!!”

linda wrote:

Actually it is fairly easy to google what is going on with the megas and the music, lights, etc. It is all designed or crafted to release specific endorphins and brain chemicals and is a very sinister form of crowd control, imho.

I can’t help but recycle this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RJBd8zE48A

elastigirl wrote:

music is being created in the moment. then another gets an idea. then another. then they all come back together as a whole. then, another idea…

whatever ‘leader’ is there is minimally involved — maybe a word to facilitate one musician expanding on something, or another musician to hold back. then when they’re done, ‘leader’ might bring up discussion on how/when to go forward. finally, ‘leader’ makes sure lights are off, building locked.

Amen. I wish facilitation was taught instead of “leadership”. Instead of understanding how various individuals can exercise gifts and abilities to develop each other and organize in an ad hoc manner, it is leadership leadership leadership which is control control control. Ever notice how many leadership books and seminars there are? “Be a leader!!!” “10 steps on becoming a great Leader!!!” Check out your local Christian bookstore, if one still exists, and compare leadership books with those about being a servant. Absence of a “leader”, one man in charge, does not mean anarchy. Do we need to be reminded our model is Christ, not Alexander the Great?

I wish the example you describe was the universal model that is taught, emphasized, and practiced whenever possible.

My point exactly! He obviously doesn’t have a sponsor… that would have NEVER been posted!

@ Velour:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Velour wrote:
I look at the mountains and know that they are more than 6,000 years old. The word “yom” in Hebrew, used in the creation story, has 58 different meanings including “a long time”.
“Yom means day,
Yom means day,
Yom means day…”
— Ken Ham, when told different by Jesus himself in a cartoon over at “God of Evolution”

How many years do you give Ken Ham’s park before it goes bankrupt?

Patriciamc wrote:

Based on the six years I spent in a PCA church in high school, PCAers would be very comfortable with neo-cals. I see no difference in the two groups as both are hyper-conservative Calvinists. Now, there’s usually guy who pops up about now to defend the PCA. Sorry Mr. PCAer, I have much experience to back up my low opinion of the PCA.

PCA heroes Tim Keller and Ligon Duncan are pals with TGC and the neo-Cal movement, and so all of their buddies get promoted in the PCA as well. This diagram helpfully muddies the waters:
https://twitter.com/chortlesweakly/status/566642226013671424
In my town, the larger PCA churches have at least a latent neo-Cal influence. Any of the “Old-School Confessionalists” that show up in the lower right of the diagram are in smaller, country churches; although, even those pastors typically have an assortment of Piper and Keller on their bookshelves. Not to mention the PCA church that promotes Doug Wilson…

Today’s House of Driscoll report: It was hot, I forgot my hat (but not my 50 SPF sunscreen) and I didn’t do a car count because I was just so very hot. The cop was out there, I made myself look really silly by running along the sidewalk waving my sign in one hand and waving with the other hand to get the attention of Grace Driscoll, who waved back.

Mark has planted a cross in front of his church, but it’s currently encased in scaffolding because the bottom end is pointy and not exactly conducive to staying upright. I’ll send a pic to our blogmistresses, maybe they can describe it better.

One of my Jewish friends (also a old-time Scientology protester) made a remark I thought was terribly appropriate, based on the picture: “Driscoll’s church is not terribly impressive. It’s no crystal cathedral. More like a Spiritual Dollar Store.”

mirele wrote:

More like a Spiritual Dollar Store.”

Cheap, in more ways than one?

My point was that something as simple as a sponsor would have stopped this! But agree with you 100% I have yet to hear he’s in treatment… just talking about going. @ Velour:

In my younger years, we went to a church that was led by a Man of Gawd. We helped build that church. Bit this pastor was not the person he seemed to be. I can’t count the number of times of heard the phrase – “Touch not God’s annointed”. He was after all a Man of Gawd. This pastor hurt so many people in his church it’s not even funny. But still to this day, some die hard fans of his think he was just the greatest pastor around. Even after he died, they were still saying this. But my family knew better. Thankfully my parents took our family from that church when I was around 13 or so. The rest of my teen years and part of my twenties was spent in another church (of the same denomination), with 2 very loving, kind, compassionate true ministers of God. I have yet to find another minister like those 2 from my past. I know there are churches out there like the one I want to attend, but I can’t find them. I even listen to the music portion (on occasion) of Jimmy Swaggert’s tv programs, as I was raised on this type of music. I just don’t like the 7 – 11 songs. The songs they sing 11 times with 7 words, aren’t my style.

Chemie wrote:

PCA heroes Tim Keller and Ligon Duncan are pals with TGC and the neo-Cal movement, and so all of their buddies get promoted in the PCA as well.

My job had me living in Southern Italy for a few years. The organized crime mob there is described as “The Octopus” because their tentacles are everywhere. I don’t know if that part of Italy can ever be cleaned up because the network is so pervasive. It’s both scary and disgusting. When I started to investigate new Calvinism I was freaked out by the similarities. For anyone wanting to take the time to investigate, the connections are incredible.

Here is just a basic intro:
– Mark Dever (founder of 9Marks), Ligon Duncan (Chancelor or Reformed Theological Seminary), Al Mohler (President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) and CJ Mahaney (does he even have a job anymore?) are the co-founders of Together for the Gospel (T4G).
– Together for the Gospel has many Calvinists speakers, including all of the above plus John Piper, John MacArthur, David Platt, Matt Chandler, Kevin DeYoung, Thabiti Anyabwile, RC Sproul.
– John Piper’s Desiring God website has articles by just about any Calvinist, including Doug Wilson and CJ Mahaney.
– T4G is tightly connected with the Gospel Coalition (TGC).
– TGC was co-founder by Tim Keller. The council has an impressive list of all the usual suspects.
– The Gospel Project is a family oriented educational curriculum that appears to be mostly led by Trevin Wax. Trevin Wax has numerous articles posted on TGC. The Gospel Project is a curriculum you have to buy to know what’s in it. What is available on the web has links back to TGC, so those two efforts are tightly entwined.
– The Founders Ministry has its roots in the Conservative Resurgence that started in the 1960s. At first glance it appears to be a separate effort. However, the webmaster, Stan Reeves, planted Grace Heritage Church in Auburn, AL. Grace Heritage is on the list of churches for both 9Marks and TGC. And he references 9Marks in a lengthy article he posted on his church plan effort. Also, articles from Founders authors are available on TGC.
– Other connections in the US include Acts29, Soma Communities, The Verge Network.
– I recently found a reform effort in the Church of England that has connections with TGC, Tim Keller, and JI Packer. I found that connection by accident.

This just scratches the surface. It’s not hard to find the connections, it just takes a little time. It’s truly an octopus with tentacles everywhere.

Patriciamc wrote:

Based on the six years I spent in a PCA church in high school, PCAers would be very comfortable with neo-cals.

You write very well for someone that spent 6 years in high school!

Ken P. wrote:

Patriciamc wrote:
Based on the six years I spent in a PCA church in high school, PCAers would be very comfortable with neo-cals.
You write very well for someone that spent 6 years in high school!

Let me see, 4..5…hmmmm. I got lost. LOL

Actually, I went to the same school for grades 7 – 12. In the 8th grade, we started at the PCA church since most of my friends went there. So, that makes, don’t help me…5 years!

mot wrote:

Where is Jesus Christ in all of this?

Who?

mot wrote:

Where is Jesus Christ in all of this?

Good question.
The boys have each other, granted.

Y’all, thanks for the PCA info. Yikes. I had no idea.

I try to keep my FB page fairly non-polemical, because frankly I don’t have time for the drama. Plus, I really like this person, and I don’t want to antagonize her. So I probably won’t challenge her further re the ESS thing. I’ll just pray!

But y’all’s info was very eye-opening!

Meanwhile, a former boss of mine — a wonderful guy — is an ex-PCA-er turned Anglican. Apparently he had a horrible experience at the local PCA parish; I don’t know the details, just bits and pieces. But it seems that no one was there for him when he was going through his personal hell. He is a true sweetheart. He now heads up an Anglican economic-opportunity group in Rwanda. More power to him and God bless him!

@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
YES! ‘Suzanne’ (Judy Collins) . . . gosh you must be REALLY old too 🙂

Christiane wrote:

@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
YES! ‘Suzanne’ (Judy Collins) . . . gosh you must be REALLY old too

I’m 65!! And loving it — I get to retire this year from my toxic corporate job. Woohoo!! Age has its privileges. 😉

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

Meanwhile, a former boss of mine — a wonderful guy — is an ex-PCA-er turned Anglican. Apparently he had a horrible experience at the local PCA parish; I don’t know the details, just bits and pieces. But it seems that no one was there for him when he was going through his personal hell. He is a true sweetheart. He now heads up an Anglican economic-opportunity group in Rwanda. More power to him and God bless him!

We found the same. There were a few very nice people, but overall the people in the church just were not friendly. They could talk Christianity, but they couldn’t “do” it. Over the years I’ve learned some surprising information about some of the people in the congregation. This taught me a valuable lesson: the more people yell how holy they are, the less holy they really are. After that, I found more true Christians across the street with the “heathen” Methodist.

Edward wrote:

In reference to the guy that thinks fermentation was impossible before the Fall, is he really saying that even plants couldn’t die? I’d like to have a conversation about basic biology with that dude.

In any event, I have to shake my head at those in the SBC suggesting that the issue with Perry Noble was that he should have been a teetotaler. A spectacular exercise in missing the point.

There was no meat-eating before the fall–it’s pretty clear in Genesis. But we don’t hear too much about THAT (as opposed to the claims fermentation etc.).

Lea wrote:

Is this a real quote??? Man.

Sadly, yes.

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/10/31/doug-philips-resigns-from-office-of-president-at-vision-forum-discontinues-speaking-engagements/

PaJo wrote:

Including, perhaps, attendance at “worship” with a high-endorphins-producing band.

IMHO, I think it is more than just the band. My former church exudes more of a casino atmosphere with light shows, stained glass windows blacken over to create a black box, costuming, etc. Vegas. Show biz. Sexy. Cool. Attractive. Pretty young things attend and form pretty young things small groups. Bit older cool handsome guys combing the crowds to connect with them. Guys that do extreme sports on the side. All very fit and in the right apparel. Very hip. Very sensual.

Dave (Eagle) wrote:

This post poses the question…does the Senior Pastor have the capability to practice discernment?

We should have learned by now in 21st church that just because a “pastor” is called “senior”, “lead”, or some other superior title, it doesn’t mean they necessarily have something to say.

Leslie wrote:

At what point should someone be qualified for leadership? A charismatic personality is certainly not one of the qualificTions

Yep, charisma should not be a qualifier for a man of the cloth – indeed, the best spokesmen for God do not carry that label. Likewise, control, manipulation, and intimidation are not spiritual gifts. Most folks in church leadership these days are not equipped to be there when you consider the qualifications set forth in Scripture.

He must be “of blameless reputation, he must be married to one wife only, and be a man of self-control and discretion. He must be a man of disciplined life; he must be hospitable and have the gift of teaching. He must be neither intemperate nor violent, but gentle. He must not be a controversialist nor must he be fond of money-grabbing. He must have proper authority in his own household, and be able to control and command the respect of his children. (For if a man cannot rule in his own house how can he look after the Church of God?). He must not be a beginner in the faith, for fear of his becoming conceited and sharing Satan’s downfall. He should, in addition to the above qualifications, have a good reputation with the outside world, in case his good name is attacked and he is caught by the devil that way” (1 Timothy 3:1-7).

He must be “blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it” (Titus 1:6–9).

Raise your hand if all the pastors in your community meet these qualifications. Are they known by “self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined” lives? We are not producing a holy people in the pew because the pulpit is not holy in far too many places. But do American “worshipers” really want a pulpit that will exhort them to holy living? In the mega-mess we have created under the name “church”, the pew is as much to blame for pastors who fall; we are attracted to preachers who are no different than we are.

Coupled with Leslie’s question “At what point should someone be qualified for leadership?”, we should also be asking ourselves “What should a Christian look like?”

ishy wrote:

Though we are now seeing with NAMB a distinct preference for church-planting pastors that toe the TCG line, regardless of their character.

Yep, toeing the party-line seems to be more important than Christian integrity. We are seeing the results of a generation of young pastors not qualified for the task being unleashed on the church. If they are not starting a church out of rebellion, they are taking over one. Church planting programs seem to be more about planting theology, than churches … the new reformation is all about moving as quickly as you can with willing young rebels while the window is open.

Velour wrote:

I didn’t know that about Ed.

He is much, much too visible in reformed theo-politics for a guy who works for a publishing house which should be representing the belief and practice of majority Southern Baptists, which are distinctly non-Calvinist.

Lydia wrote:

The really scary part about them is they are giving large groups of people what they want and are willing to pay for. It’s those masses of people who scare me the most.

The best church growth model is pretty simple: “Tell me which way you want to go and I’ll get out in front to lead you!”

The only thing scarier than such leaders are the really scary folks who follow them! Their churches are always right on the edge of an accident waiting to happen … and when it does, a lost world looks on and says “I told you so; there’s nothing to it!”

Lydia wrote:

Furtick and Noble, both ostensibly SBC in roots, have very little in common doctrinally with the current crop of neo-cals running the SBC except admiring their success with followers.

They carved out their own gimmicks that worked without having to jump onto the New Calvinist bandwagon … but probably would have if their own gigs hadn’t worked out so well. There’s money to be made in the reformed ranks of the young, restless, reformed, and gullible.

Lydia wrote:

SBC leadership movers and shakers … do not want people thinking too deeply or independently. The Pew sitters are to stay ignorant and obedient. Any questioning or analyzing the situation is now to be a sin.

Exactly. Their call for unity is not to be one in Christ, but in oneness to the theo-political maneuvering at hand. The best way to maintain harmony is to not inform or misinform the pew, hoping for them to remain willingly ignorant. Which is the greater sin? To sit in apathy while your denomination and church trends toward a theology you don’t agree with? Or to challenge the rebellion by standing up to question it?

@ Max:

Yup – Thems bein sum tuff qualifications for elder/overseer. 😉
“Most folks in church leadership these days are NOT equipped to be there when you consider the qualifications set forth in Scripture.”

Seems today, most who call themselves “pastor/elder/overseer” just “Ignore,” or “Twist,” these qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and Titus, so they can maintain their “Titles,” pastor/leader/reverend, that comes with Power, Profit, Prestige. And when you challenge and compare their aberrant behavior with the listed qualifcations you become the enemy.

Damn the qualifications – Full speed ahead.

Christiane wrote:

the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message left out ” The criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted is Jesus Christ.”

Which is why numerous SBC churches did not adopt the BFM2000, preferring the content of the BFM1963 instead. When you toss aside a Christocentric interpretation of Scripture, you are treading in dangerous water.

Ken F wrote:

I am wondering when the new-Calvinists will start chewing each other up

Such rebellions always end by implosion. Unfortunately, they always leave a wake of disillusioned folks who may never return to church again. Whose strategy would that be?

mot wrote:

Some have called the SBC a cult.

Well, some corners of it are definitely acting cultish these days. However, the mainline is still holding onto Truth in belief and practice, but significantly challenged by the aberrations coming through the chute.

Ray wrote:

I think we are in complete agreement! I am waiting to hear when he ACTUALLY starts going to treatment. I was amazed that he was online posting 14 days after he was fired and STILL NOT IN REHAB! (and probably not going to meetings!) @ Velour:

I’m in complete agreement with you.

Perry Noble should have been escorted on an airplane to an in-patient treatment center.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

So, Volfan’s argument doesn’t make sense biblically, scientifically, or in any other way. And yet, he insists on making it.

He and others like him also use the Bible selectively to prohibit women for serving the Lord in whatever way he wishes to use them including being a pastor. But, ah if you do play along with their silly use of words you are a LIBERAL. To misuse the Bible the way they do what are they?

A. Amos Love wrote:

Looks like “Wall-e” can be seen on line.

Thanks, Amos! I’ve seen it before; just a bit peeved at my own forgetfulness.

Max wrote:

Which is why numerous SBC churches did not adopt the BFM2000, preferring the content of the BFM1963 instead. When you toss aside a Christocentric interpretation of Scripture, you are treading in dangerous water.

The big boys of the SBC would love to make every association, every church in that association, every worker at all of the state conventions, etc. sign a document that they agree with the 2000 BF&M.

Lea wrote:

They only care about being literal when it benefits them.

If they don’t want to do something, or think it’s silly, or heavens even not part of the modern cultural (greeting with a kiss!) they feel comfortable discarding it.

I believe one of the greatest mistakes the SBC has ever made was prohibiting women to be pastors. Why not just let each church decide if God has led them to have a woman pastor?

Ken F wrote:

But I am wondering when the new-Calvinists will start chewing each other up.

A history of the French Revolution would be helpful.

mot wrote:

Max wrote:
Yep, the “Conservative” Resurgence quickly turned into a “Calvinist” Resurgence. I don’t think that even some of the CR leaders fully expected the pendulum to swing back 500 years and retrieve John Calvin!
I also think that some of these CR boys that pushed out others from their jobs are going to one day very soon be looking for a job. The Non-Cals will be treated as if they are LIBERALS. The CR IMO was a monster that has produced MONSTERS!

I’m wondering how many years the NeoCals have left before they implode. (Even the Puritans ended.) Scandal after scandal, church after church, pastor after pastor. Their fanboys and girls are outted as unethical, dishonest and even abusive.

Owen “Sanctified Testosterone” Strachan recently resigned from the Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood (his father-in-law who teaches a semi-Arian heresy about the Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son is behind CBMW.

9Marks (Mark Dever & Co.) are under fire for all of the abuses and authoritarianism that they have espoused. Dever has been criticized for re-branding the 1970’s abusive, authoritarian, un-Biblical heavy-Shepherding Movement in 9Marks language. And of course as astute posters have noted here, there is only ONE mark of a Biblical church: LOVE. And LOVE didn’t even make Mark Dever’s list.

A defensive Mark Dever came out with the “don’t practice church discipline just yet” message.

The Southern Baptists are losing 200,000 living members a year, people fed up with the antics.

The Southern Baptists, who have been teaching the subordination of women in marriage/Comp, now have the distinction of an ugly pay-back: the highest divorce rate of ANY denomination in the nation (Barna study). Atheists do better at keeping their marriages together than Southern Baptists.

I think the love-affair with NeoCalvinism is over and they are feeling the heat.

Ken F wrote:

This just scratches the surface. It’s not hard to find the connections, it just takes a little time. It’s truly an octopus with tentacles everywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBw8vUdtH2A

PaJo wrote:

There was no meat-eating before the fall–it’s pretty clear in Genesis. But we don’t hear too much about THAT (as opposed to the claims fermentation etc.).

That’s the rationale behind the Vegan T-Rexes at Ken Ham’s theme park.

Max wrote:

Yep, toeing the party-line seems to be more important than Christian integrity. We are seeing the results of a generation of young pastors not qualified for the task being unleashed on the church. If they are not starting a church out of rebellion, they are taking over one. Church planting programs seem to be more about planting theology, than churches … the new reformation is all about moving as quickly as you can with willing young rebels while the window is open.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again:

SIXTY YEARS AGO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN COMMUNISM INSTEAD OF CALVINISM.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

XD XD

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

Oops, sorry, yes I did. Thanks so much!!
I will consider sending those links. I don’t want to stir up a hornet’s nest, because she really is a good friend whose friendship I value….and I am a wuss!!!
But maybe I owe it to her to send the links. Thanks again!

Okay. I didn’t mean to be pushy or what not, I just couldn’t tell if you didn’t see that post. 🙂

If you don’t feel comfortable engaging her on that topic further, I understand.

I have online friends whom I disagree with on some subjects. Sometimes we agree to disagree politely and can discuss stuff, other times, I feel any further discussion would become too heated, so I just drop those subjects.

Velour wrote:

The Southern Baptists are losing 200,000 living members a year, people fed up with the antics.

I continue to be stunned that over 1000 SBC missionaries were brought home and the SBC leaders had said little to nothing about this.

My heart hurts for these missionaries that trusted the SBC leaders and who received the shaft from them.

Nancy2 wrote:

A lot of people need to “have a little talk with Jesus” about that.
I will say that in my area of rural Kentucky, most average pew peons have no idea what’s going on. But, I fear that most of them would say, “That’s ridiculous”, if anyone tried to inform them.

Well, talking to Jesus certainly wouldn’t hurt anything! But Southern Baptists really need to be having a family talk with their pastors about this. As SBC wades deeper into this mess, I hold the pastors at 45,000+ SBC churches at fault for not informing their members about the proliferation of Calvinism in their non-Calvinist denomination. While the giant slept, New Calvinist leaders were put in place at most SBC entities, including most seminaries, home and foreign mission agencies, publishing house, and numerous new church plants. And the pew ain’t got a clue, because their pastors were silent about the theo-politics which will manifest changes in belief and practices as we go forward. On the other hand, would the SBC masses really give a big whoop about a drift in theology as long as you don’t lay hands on their potluck dinners?

@ Nancy2:
We’ve always voted and communicated with our feet, rather than waste words on deaf ears. I don’t think we’ve ever been engaged in a congregation where we have a voice, so to speak. Sad but true. The leadership and the group moves as they will, and we’ve never been able to figure it out. Either we’re on board, or we leave. Those are the choices presented. There’s a subtext and we obviously don’t speak the language.

That is what makes TWW so engaging – the subtext is put right out there, things are explained, questions are asked, responses are hashed out, real life examples illustrate, fact checks are made, no stone is left unturned. TWW is a completely different experience – spiritually, practically, eyes wide open with love and dignity and truth. Genderless, too – or both genders equal?

@ Max:

You quote the qualifications for elder/overeer in (1 Timothy 3:1-7), and (Titus 1:6–9).

Then you challenge folks…
“Raise your hand if all the pastors in your community meet these qualifications.”

In my experience… NOT many, if any, are willing to question a pastors qualifications.
At least NOT when they are busy contributing money to their upkeep.

Here are a few more “character traits” to challenge folks, and pastors, with.
Ten “character traits” for pastor/elders, and ALL His Disciples to cultivate.

Since elders are to be “living examples” to the flock. 1 Pet 5:3…

Are the pastors and elders in your community…
Living Examples of…

1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
6 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
7 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
8 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
9 – NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV

10 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
10 – Humility – a modest, or low opinion of ones own importance.
10 – Do you know many pastor/elders…
who have a modest or low opinion of their own importance?

In my experience, the number of pastor/elder/leader/reverends, Who actually teach, and practice these 10 – Who teach, and practice, “Submitting one to another” – Who teach, and practice, NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory. Who teach, and practice, NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles. Who are “Clothed with humility” haveing “a modest or low view of one’s own importance,”

Is Quite Small… 😉

@ A. Amos Love:
Indeed Brother Love … such pastors are rare and endangered species. It is refreshing to actually run across such a man. I’ve known only a few church leaders in my 60+ year Christian journey who practice what they preach, who walk what they talk (heck, some of these new young pastors aren’t even talking that way!)

Velour wrote:

How many years do you give Ken Ham’s park before it goes bankrupt?

No clue. Never been much at that kind of prediction.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Velour wrote:
How many years do you give Ken Ham’s park before it goes bankrupt?
No clue. Never been much at that kind of prediction.

I’d give it 7 years. We’ll see. Maybe less.

@ Max:

Christiane wrote: “the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message left out ” The criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted is Jesus Christ.””

Max wrote: “Which is why numerous SBC churches did not adopt the BFM2000”
+++++++++++++++++

late to the game, here, in putting pieces together. why did they leave this out?

my guess is that it gives them more freedom and flexibility to interpret Paul & others in ways that are convenient.

this convenience comes down to keeping control of $ & the industry which fuels their careers; by keeping control of the plebians.

They keep control of the plebians by keeping answers to hard questions neat and tidy. By eliminating critical thinking, so as to forestall further challenging questions. By suppressing dissent and revolt.

Seems to me Jesus in word and deed is something of a wildcard. Paul and others seem to be more practical, which means steps to take, directions to follow, & rules. these things work nicely into thought systems that can be tied up neat and tidy. By contrast, Jesus in word and deed seems more on the esoteric side. And no NT writer captures it all — Jesus in word and deed escapes being systematized by Paul & others.

Paul & NT others present rather detailed & organized systems of thought. Jesus does not. much more convenient to limit criterion for interpretation to Paul, etc.

i don’t think SBC leaders (christian leaders in general) know what to do with Jesus.

in all honesty, for many years i focused on Paul because i didn’t know what to do with Jesus, either. i think i was looking for answers for what i should do in this, that, & the other situations of my life. I was a young adult presented with so many unknowns about my future, trying to find my way, trying to make my life work. i was looking for instructions, as if the bible were an instruction manual for how to operate the machine of me & my life (& others and their lives? to a certain extent, it’s probably true.)

SO….. thank you for reading. i’d appreciate your and anyone’s thoughts on why Jesus is left in the lurch (except for perfunctory allusions).

@ Gram3:

mot wrote: “Why not just let each church decide if God has led them to have a woman pastor?”

Gram3: “Because if you allow one then many others will follow. The supply of “pastors” would increase by the number of women who are gifted or ambitions and the price/salary for pastors would decrease. Also, the status of being male in the church would decline because women can do the same things men can do in a pulpit/sacred space.”
+++++++++++++

nicely to the point.

supply and demand… i’m no student of economics (creative person here, lost in a world of creating beauty and meaning through the arts). but, deductive reasoning is kicking in at the moment, & a quick search on supply & demand produced this:

“monopolistic practices…although it’s reported that is the approach that De Beers took. It’s even been reported that De Beers purchased large supplies of diamonds from its competitors and simply stockpiled them in order to gain control over the diamond supply.”

https://www.quicksprout.com/2012/08/16/how-to-manipulate-the-law-of-supply-and-demandand-make-a-lot-more-money/

i dunno…. i see comparisons to christian culture.

makes me sick. what a shameful, stupid religion. which jesus transcends, of course.

FW Rez wrote:

Velour wrote:
How many years do you give Ken Ham’s park before it goes bankrupt?
Hard to determine but be sure you define a year as 365.25 24 hour days.

ROFL.

I found this post and it is very disturbing to say the least! I know it’s off topic here a bit but I find this reprehensible and again it go’s to show that safety for those who fellowship inside these churches is not a priority for these people. This is Grace Bible Fellowship of Sunnyvale Ca. Here is the post!

It’s a serious matter that a convicted child pornographer on Megan’s List is in church ministry with access to children. Can you identify this child pornographer and can you provide evidence of his conviction (court docs…the Megan’s List) and evidence he was/is in ministry at GBFSV?

Megan’s List has the child pornographer who lives in Cupertino, CA. He was put in charge of a team of people at church.

Sex crimes specialists around the world have been extremely critical of the GBFSV pastors/elders for what they did saying that sex offenders should NEVER be put in any kind of trustworthy or leadership position. And that they should be ministered separately from the regular congregants and from children for safety.

He has also been given access to go to all GBFSV events, including things like the weekly Bible study I attended. Parents brought their young children to the Bible study. No one in the room, save me, knew that this man was a felon, a Megan’s List registrant, and a convicted child pornographer.

I don’t have court documents on his case. He’s on Megan’s List. I have spoken to the Sheriff’s sex offenders’ task force about him, they are his supervising law enforcement agency.

I did watch the sex offender run his hands through a friends’ little boy’s (age 4) hair. Friends had no idea the man was a sex offender and didn’t see it. Pastors/elders said it was no big deal and it was fine. I said, “It’s a VERY BIG DEAL. It’s called grooming. It’s how sex offenders get children to trust them.”

@marquis,

So as not to derail this thread, we should move the topic about my ex-church over to the Open Discussion thread.

Thanks for your concern. (I am working on getting them banned from the denomination that rents to them. I heard back from that other denomination’s leadership. I also got my ex-church banned from several more Christian schools and renting their gyms for basketball camp and any other activities for children. Those leaders thanked me and have strict policies already in place which my ex-church violated.)

Velour wrote:

@marquis,

So as not to derail this thread, we should move the topic about my ex-church over to the Open Discussion thread.

Thanks for your concern. (I am working on getting them banned from the denomination that rents to them. I heard back from that other denomination’s leadership. I also got my ex-church banned from several more Christian schools and renting their gyms for basketball camp and any other activities for children. Those leaders thanked me and have strict policies already in place which my ex-church violated.)

oh sure Velour sorry about that I will absolutely move the thread. Glad you are on this. I saw that post and was astonished and needless to say upset! Anyways I will take it over to where you suggested.

elastigirl wrote:

They keep control of the plebians by keeping answers to hard questions neat and tidy. By eliminating critical thinking, so as to forestall further challenging questions. By suppressing dissent and revolt.

I think you’d be surprised by how many dissidents don’t dare and come out of the closet so to speak. I think that it might be a function of prudence and how much said person has invested in the ‘system’.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn knew this well and had the courage to choose conscience.

Velour wrote:

I corrupted the ex-church with my Tequila Lime Chicken. By the way, they loved it.

They would love my Veal Marsala and my Coq au Vin, not to mention my bourbon balls and pecan rum cake at Christmas time 🙂
Oh, the joy of cooking!

Christiane wrote:

Velour wrote:
I corrupted the ex-church with my Tequila Lime Chicken. By the way, they loved it.
They would love my Veal Marsala and my Coq au Vin, not to mention my bourbon balls and pecan rum cake at Christmas time
Oh, the joy of cooking!

Oh yummy.

If you ever wish, post some of your favorite recipes at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, the Cooking tab. Recipes include: Nick’s Yorkshire Pudding, Gram3’s Key Lime Pie recipe, GovPappy’s Sour Cream Pound Cake.

Max wrote:

YRR intellect.

Is that another of those proverbial oxymorons, like “Microsoft Works”?

Max wrote:

Anyone who follows New Calvinism knows that they give the writings of Paul precedence over the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It’s as if the Pauline epistles are the only Bible they need!

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who???
Paul’s epistles are the Gospel(TM)!
Thus, obliterating John’s introduction stating that Jesus is the Word!

@ Nancy2:
Oh, there’s buttermilk in the fridge, if you wanna crumble some cornbread in a glass! Our Great Pyrenees goes bonkers over cornbread and buttermilk!

Nancy2 wrote:

@ Nancy2:
Oh, there’s buttermilk in the fridge, if you wanna crumble some cornbread in a glass! Our Great Pyrenees goes bonkers over cornbread and buttermilk!

P
Nice doggie! I like dogs but I live in such a little space and it is unfair for dogs not to have a space to roam.

Nancy2 wrote:

Okay. Y’all make me feel even more backwoods country than I thought I wuz.

It’s all relative Nancy2. I still miss an old-fashioned Wisconsin fish boil out in the country. Pure heaven.

Mark wrote:

They are modern day Pharisees.

Agreed. They may talk about grace, but they deliver the law.

Velour wrote:

How many years do you give Ken Ham’s park before it goes bankrupt?

It depends on a lot of factors. One of them: Is Ham still continuing his cockamamie lawsuit against the state of Kentucky, to get back his precious tax incentives? If he is, he could run out of capital in a hurry. It’ll be like pouring money down a hole.

Velour wrote:

What is in the Wisconsin fish boil?

It used to be whitefish (in the old days, before they were harvested to near extinction) and yellow perch from Lake Michigan, crappies, bluegills, bullheads, and walleye from inland waters. Potatoes, carrots, celery, onions, turnips, tomatoes, you name it, all stewed together in great cauldrons.
It’s becoming a thing of the past though because the mercury levels in the wild-caught fish of the region are becoming unsafe.

Nancy2 wrote:

Our Great Pyrenees goes bonkers over cornbread and buttermilk!

Pyrs are great dogs!! Used to have a half lab/half pyr but had to send her to a farm (real farm, not a euphemism!) because she would break out of the yard and go swim in the lake and come home and sit in the yard and bark. Which would have been fine in the country…but kind of not ideal for town!

Perry’s got another video up…

Max wrote:

Ray wrote:
Perry’s got another video up…
https://www.facebook.com/nobleperry/videos/vb.163968103691689/1073020226119801/?type=2&theater

He’s lying straight to everyone’s faces. He’ll be back at NewSpring and everyone is going to welcome him with open arms. Just look at the comments. People right and left are falling for this and believing it, and NewSpring and Perry Noble have no shame in exploiting Christians and their gullibility.

This is what this man does. He deserves zero sympathy. He should be arrested and thrown in jail for FRAUD and not released until he is purged of contempt. That’s the rehab this charlatan needs. Am I the only one watching the video that felt like slapping this man across his face? This is absolutely despicable.

HOAX. HOAX. HOAX.

bc wrote:

Velour wrote:
Christiane wrote:
Velour wrote:
I corrupted the ex-church with my Tequila Lime Chicken. By the way, they loved it.
They would love my Veal Marsala and my Coq au Vin, not to mention my bourbon balls and pecan rum cake at Christmas time
Oh, the joy of cooking!
Oh yummy.
If you ever wish, post some of your favorite recipes at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, the Cooking tab. Recipes include: Nick’s Yorkshire Pudding, Gram3’s Key Lime Pie recipe, GovPappy’s Sour Cream Pound Cake.
This is why so many churches and public schools quit the potlucks and went to catered events. Not only were there those looking to corrupt with something like marijuana in the brownies, or LSD in the coffee, booze in the punch (happened in my daughters youth group),or tee hee Bourbon balls to trip up recovering alcoholics and the kindergardeners, and not but not least hepatitis

Oh I know that there are plenty of nutty people.

Christiane and I are upstanding folks and were making light of all of the people who are die-hards (like the NeoCalvinists at my ex-church) who act like alcohol is on par with serving up illegal drugs. Very immature.

And apparently they don’t realize it cooks off in food.

I have friends who are clean and sober, can’t drink, and so I respect that. I agree with you about the rum balls and I’ve seen people (in denial) bring rum balls to gatherings of recovering alcoholics.

I just like to be respectful of the various views and get tired of the extremes.

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

Velour wrote:
How many years do you give Ken Ham’s park before it goes bankrupt?
It depends on a lot of factors. One of them: Is Ham still continuing his cockamamie lawsuit against the state of Kentucky, to get back his precious tax incentives? If he is, he could run out of capital in a hurry. It’ll be like pouring money down a hole.

I haven’t checked that out.

Velour wrote:

And apparently they don’t realize [alcohol] cooks off in food.

Strictly speaking, they’re right. Although boiling/cooking tends to reduce the concentration of alcohol, it only reduces it down to a level where water and alcohol are in equilibrium; this can be as much as 4% alcohol. The belief that it removes the alcohol is understandable, but it’s a myth. Chemistry – to be specific, thermodynamics – dictates otherwise. (Unless you also boil off all the water… but that’s harder than it sounds too. And of course it would ruin the dinner.)

Even a very well-reduced white wine sauce, such as my own excellent pepperoni, mushroom and red onion version, contains alcohol. For most practical purposes it doesn’t really matter, but if I were feeding someone who had a particular reason not to imbibe alcohol at all, I’d probably stick with a mushroom and pepperoni sauce and leave out the wine.

It is possible to separate ethanol and water completely, by various methods. But they’re complicated, and would also ruin the dinner.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Velour wrote:

And apparently they don’t realize [alcohol] cooks off in food.

Strictly speaking, they’re right. Although boiling/cooking tends to reduce the concentration of alcohol, it only reduces it down to a level where water and alcohol are in equilibrium; this can be as much as 4% alcohol. The belief that it removes the alcohol is understandable, but it’s a myth. Chemistry – to be specific, thermodynamics – dictates otherwise. (Unless you also boil off all the water… but that’s harder than it sounds too. And of course it would ruin the dinner.)

Even a very well-reduced white wine sauce, such as my own excellent pepperoni, mushroom and red onion version, contains alcohol. For most practical purposes it doesn’t really matter, but if I were feeding someone who had a particular reason not to imbibe alcohol at all, I’d probably stick with a mushroom and pepperoni sauce and leave out the wine.

It is possible to separate ethanol and water completely, by various methods. But they’re complicated, and would also ruin the dinner.

Thank you for that info.

I do think that even if we don’t agree with a person it is better to not try to “corrupt’ them e.g. meat offered to idols, peanuts to those with peanut allergies, meat slipped on vegetarians, pork to jews/muslims/those that just don’t like it, pot in brownies, booze in the punch, diabetics and their problems etc. I am on 2 medications that state clearly that I should not have…… so I would not find it very Christian if someone got their jollies sabotaging my food or drink.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Even a very well-reduced white wine sauce, such as my own excellent pepperoni, mushroom and red onion version, contains alcohol. For most practical purposes it doesn’t really matter, but if I were feeding someone who had a particular reason not to imbibe alcohol at all, I’d probably stick with a mushroom and pepperoni sauce and leave out the wine.

I’ll have to stop using wine in my pasta sauces; my roomie comes from a family with a history of alcoholism.