The Hell Faced By Church Staff When Lead Pastors Like Perry Noble Are Substance Abusers

"Better to sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunken Christian."  Herman Melville, link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=85587&picture=broken-heart-painting
Broken Heart

The following Tweet was directed towards me on Twitter and it opened my eyes to the view by some in the church as to what constitutes abuse. This individual obviously feels that abuse is only physical.

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In my previous post, I relayed the story of my mother as a little girl who was frightened by the drunken antics of her father. She was never physically abused. However, she would hide in a tiny closet with her siblings. She is now 87 years old and to this day cannot be in crowded rooms with having an anxiety attack. This, folks, is emotional abuse which has resulted in a life time of anxiety which has limited her enjoyment on many occasions.

Our post, Perry Noble’s Problems Are Just Beginning: An Analysis, resulted in a number of readers commenting on the hell (a frequent descriptor used by those affected by alcoholic family members) they have endured at the hands of the alcohol or substance abuser. We plan to feature a number of those comments in a planned post on Friday.

One reader, though, caught my eye. Posting as *Faceless Church Staffer* (from now on to be referred to as FCS) recounted her experience as a staff member in a church in which the lead pastor was abusing alcohol. We know the identity of the individual and the location of the church but, as requested, we'll be keeping all of that anonymous.

From reading the following comment, I came to understand that church staff members are victims of an alcoholic abuser as well.

A true story of one church staffer who went through hell

Her comment (added headers and repagination on the part of the editor)


Reading about Perry Noble’s fall brought back a flood emotions from the last four years of my life. Everything that happened with Perry, happened at our church on a smaller scale. It was hell, to say the least.

Lead pastor changed the bylaws to diminish his accountability to others.

Concerning the elders who didn’t speak up, I may be able to provide some insight to this. I don’t know how Perry’s church is set up, but at our church, the bylaws were changed very quietly (which I’m still a little baffled as to how this happened), and our lead pastor was able to effectively create a system that had no accountability. Elders (called overseers) were appointed by the lead pastor and were the only ones who had the power to fire him.

The overseers were naive and the staff members thought the overseers were handling things.

The overseers were nice men, but there were so naive. Alcoholics have a way of isolating people from each other so that they can never share their parts of the story and put two and two together.

Finally, after we had so many staff and active members leave our church, the overseers began asking questions. The mid to lower level staff trusted the overseers and the senior leadership, so they assumed that problems were being discussed.

The leadership roles were poorly defined.

When people’s roles are not clearly defined and teams and boards aren’t clearly told what their role is, they always assume it’s someone else’s responsibility to address problems. At the time, my husband was lower level and we’d only been there for a few months, so we assumed someone else higher up was addressing the problems that were becoming clearer and clearer to us.

Members expressed anger at the church staff for not supporting the alcoholic pastor.

When the crap finally hit the fan and we found out our pastor was an alcoholic and the right thing was finally done and he was removed, that’s when all hell broke loose. There were people in the church who hated us, because we were kicking a man when he was down.

Church members had been kept in the dark about his salary and the alcohol expenses he billed to the church.

No one in our congregation knew how awful and nightmarish it was to work on staff with him  No one in our congregation knew about the expenses he had racked up on his company credit card for booze. No one in our congregation knew his insane salary. They just knew we had removed him, they loved to listen to him speak, and we were the easiest people to blame.

FCS believes it must have been hell working with Perry Noble when he was abusing alcohol.

If I were a betting person, I bet working with Perry was hell. I bet he was an angry man who was fabulous at acting authentic while in reality holding people at arm’s length. I bet well meaning people tried to confront him and I bet he twisted their words and made them feel like idiots for even questioning him. After all, who are you to confront Perry, you’re a sinner yourself! When you have a dynamic speaker like Perry coupled with a church government system that systematically separates the decision makers from the pulse of the mid to lower level staff and the key volunteers and members, coupled with an environment that naturally attracts people with little to no theological discernment, it is always a recipe for disaster. It’s the perfect environment for a high-functioning alcoholic, because they can very easily control people’s perception of them.

FCS thought Noble might have a substance abuse problem due to the American Airline Twitter dustup.

The tip off for me that Perry may have alcohol issues was his interaction with American Airlines on Twitter. Our ex-lead pastor would do things like this, too. He was super active on social media (another way to control perception) but once and awhile, late at night, you’d see these super vile tweets about sports that were just spewing with anger. They’d be deleted pretty quickly, and I don’t know if anyone ever confronted him, but trust me when I say, if he can talk like that on Twitter, just imagine what it was like in his house or with the board that tried to confront him.

The mid level staff at NewSpring may be forgotten during this crisis. 

Pray for the mid to lower level staff at that church. They are the forgotten ones. Everyone will pray for Perry and “NewSpring” as a whole. The church will pay for Perry to get the help he needs. But it’s that mid to lower level staff that will have to wake up today and go try to pick up the pieces of Perry’s destruction. I guarantee they’re ill-equipped for a nightmare like this.

  • They will lose friends.
  • They will know more pieces of the puzzle than they’re allowed to say.And many of them, like we were, are not making salaries that will allow them to get the counseling that they will desperately need.
  • They will be silenced and unable to talk about their feelings of betrayal and confusion.
  • They have been groomed not to ask questions, but do their job, because the senior leadership will take care of it.

FCS finally got counseling

It took us two years after our mess at our church to get counseling. We should have gotten it earlier, but no one offered to help us financially and we couldn’t afford it with children to feed. So we trudged on and stayed in our church because God had called us there while everyone else had the luxury of leaving. We have learned much, but my heart breaks for these families, because I know what’s coming, and it will chew them up and spit them out.

She was surprised to learn that senior leadership had no idea how to handle a situation like this.

The biggest surprise the lower level staff will find is that the senior leadership and overseers have no idea what they’re doing. They’re polished, sure, but they are ill-equipped to handle a scandal like this. The biggest lesson I learned is that wisdom and skill really have nothing to do with pay grade. If you were dumb enough to set up a system that allows for behavior like this to go unchecked for so long, you’re sure as hell not smart enough to know how to pastor a church out of this mess.

What does it mean to give people grace?

People speak of giving Perry grace, but no one will give these faceless, nameless lower-level church staffers grace. No one gave us grace. We sat on thousands of dollars expenses that the church owed us so the church could give our pastor the “grace” of a severance package. No one gave us trauma counseling, but our pastor had the grace of having that paid for. We were eventually vindicated, as people finally realized how deceptive he truly was (alcoholics have the tendency to continue to make the same mistakes over and over again, and it eventually catches up with you), but by that point, we had lost our friends, were left to dig our church out of the most unbelievable financial mess, and we were so exhausted (spiritually, financially, and emotionally).

*Life change* doesn't mean that things don't go bad and that is a surprise to many people.

No one is kicking Perry while he is down by removing him from a place of leadership; they are doing their best to protect that congregation from what I imagine was an incredibly toxic environment. I think a lot of these churches hate this because it flies in the face of “life-change” and the “come as you are because it’s okay that you’re messed up”. The megachurch model places such a high emphasis on life change to the point that it becomes an idol and when people begin slipping into destructive habits, they don’t want to admit that their life change maybe isn’t all that cut and dry.

People with destructive tendencies love to say "It's OK to be messed up"

I think people with destructive tendencies love the “it’s okay to be messed up; we’re all messed up” mantra because it justifies their dangerous behaviors. They can be idolized because “look at how amazing a speaker they are” but they can continue with their destructive tendencies, because it’s okay to be messed up; God loves us as we are. It’s screwed up thinking, I know, but I promise you, in environments like NewSpring, that’s how a lot of people think. I know that’s how it was in my church.


FCS put more of her thinking down in writing and sent this along. It is so good, that I felt it should be shared with all of you.

The problem with *Pray for Perry Noble.*

I see so many Facebook statuses, articles, and blog posts exhorting the need for us to pray for Perry Noble. I agree with this, but  sometimes the tone and voice that these exhortations have allows no space for those who put their trust in Perry and the leadership of NewSpring to have a voice. It shuts those who are collateral damage down from expressing their betrayal, confusion, sadness, and anger.

The church staff is going to need some counseling and they might not be able to afford it.

As someone who has walked this road, I want you to know that I hear you. I have no doubt that Perry will have access to high quality counseling, probably at the expense of the church, and he will have the luxury of working through his issues while having his financial needs met. While I pray for Perry, I pray for the church staff that have no name, the non-celebrity ones that won’t have time or the financial resources to spend time in counseling but will still have to wake up every morning and keep NewSpring running. 

The church staff will be caught in the cross hairs.

For the pastoral staff and overseers that will have to answer hard questions from confused parishioners and will have to walk that very thin line of providing the information you can without slandering Perry in the process. My heart breaks for you, because people will hate you for it because you’ll try to to do the right thing and not divulge too much personal information, and your congregation will be forced to connect the dots that is not a full picture of what is happening. And you will be caught in the cross hairs. You will be the bad guy.  My heart breaks because your church was built on systems that doomed you to fail, and it’s not your fault.  

My heart breaks because many of you will lose friends, because people you’ve poured your heart into will walk away from NewSpring because you aren’t a dynamic speaker like Perry, and frankly, it’s easier for those people to move onto somewhere healthier than to help you pick up the pieces.  But you don’t have that luxury of walking away, because you were called to ministry and you feel like sticking this through is the right thing to do.  You will shed tears, you will be angry, and you will shake your fist at God, just like I did.  

It’s a lonely place to be.  But I if I could tell you a couple of words of advice, this is what they would be:

1. Do not trust in your leadership culture; trust in God.

There were so many times in my soul, as things were coming crashing down and in the aftermath of the destruction where I felt like I should do something (reach out to certain people, confront other people, warn others, share more insider information for the sake of protecting people) but I failed to do it.  I do not blame this on anyone but my own young and naive self, but I assumed those above me would set the tone on how to walk through this tragedy.  They didn’t. 

Looking back, I ask myself, “Why would I expect the people in leadership above me to know how to walk through this if they are the same ones that put the systems in place that allowed this to happen in the first place?”  The truth is that no one wants to take responsibility for setting the tone of what it looks like to be the restorative hands and feet of Jesus in the wake of someone else’s sin.  To all those middle and lower-level staff, I hope your overseers and senior leadership set the tone of what forgiveness and pastoral care to your congregation looks like, and I hope they help you take the necessary steps in your own self-care, but there’s a big chance they won’t.

What I can say is that I knew in my soul what the Holy Spirit was telling me to do in this situation and I ignored it because it was not in line with how those above me were acting. I can tell you now, years after our pain, that in almost every circumstance where I felt this deep nudge of how live like Christ in the midst of tragedy that ran contrary to status quo, my instincts were correct and I have been vindicated.  It’s not because I’m particularly smart; it’s because it was God’s Spirit speaking to me of what Christlikeness should look like in tragedy.  I betrayed God’s spirit and did violence to my own soul.  Take your cues from the author and perfecter of our faith, the one who endured the cross.  Don’t take your cues from business protocol. 

2. You will learn lessons that no seminary or bible college can teach you…if you allow yourself to be a student. 

Sometimes, I willingly allowed myself to be a student in the midst of our personal tragedy. Other times, I unwillingly became a student.That is simply God’s grace.  There have been conversations I’ve had with other pastors in the past six months or so where they’ve said my insights are so wise beyond my years. Well, when you’re forced to pick up the pieces of someone else’s mess, you have to learn quickly.

One of our board members at church told my husband the other day, “I’ve watched you grow up at this church in the last four years. It’s kind of sad.”  I almost burst into tears when he said that, because it was so true. It was sad. My husband and I are different people than when we walked into this church. On one hand, we are more hardened and cynical than we’ve ever been, but on the other hand we believe more deeply and profoundly in the powerful transformative grace of God. 

A smooth talker and speaker doesn’t move us the way it used to. The dream of a big church means little to us anymore, other than we want to be faithful with the congregation God gives us whether big or small. The self-protection, negligence, and spiritual emptiness of our previous leadership and the pain that it produced within our people has been the most important lesson in my life of how I believe God wants my husband and me to lead the people he has given us. There’s no leadership book or personality test or model of church that can teach these lessons. It will be painful, but if you allow yourself to be a student, God will mold you into a person you never dreamed would be possible. 

3. Finally, for God’s sake, can we stop acting like there are not theological implications to all of this?! 

How many more congregations have to experience the spiritual and relational fallout of a celebrity pastor going off the rails? I am so tired of the “who are you to judge?” rhetoric going on after these tragedies. If we don’t begin making some astute observations (read: judgments) about the sort of models, personalities, and theology that lead this sort of behavior, then we are forsaking our call as pastors to protect and shepherd congregations. 

I truly believe that some of us need to take a serious look at the gospel we are peddling. Is it the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or is it our own dream and vision?  Spoiler alert: it’s a mix for all of us, because our hearts are so so deceitful. The only way of fighting our own hubris is by surrounding ourselves with different kinds of people — people who love Jesus but have different perspectives in praxis. Some systems and forms of church government are more conducive for this than others. 

Let’s just be honest about that and start to think of ways of bridging the gaps in some of our practices.  Let’s look at megachurch models and anti-intellectualism and the changes in non-denominational churches and their stance on alcohol and at least ask if these are topics worth exploring. But please, let’s not shut down the people asking the questions by telling them that they’re “kicking a man while he is down”, because these are real, critical questions that need to be asked if we are to protect other churches from a similar fate. 

Ask the uncomfortable questions.

Trust me, it is worth asking uncomfortable questions if it keeps another congregation from going through the hell that many of us have experienced. Those of you watching from social media, there are so many of us out there who have experienced trauma similar to this but our churches weren’t quite big enough or the scandal wasn’t quite awful enough to make the news. 

We sat through the tragedy in silence trying to do the right thing and pick up the pieces.  The few who knew our silent struggle prayed for us, but mostly, we were silenced by people who told us we weren’t perfect either, so we shouldn’t judge. Or we were told how insensitive we were for shooting our wounded pastor. No one thought about the wounds we quietly carried. So we silently trudged on, without the resources to cope.

The final betrayal

In our scenario, people reamed out our church leadership for not providing more for our pastor financially. Meanwhile, my husband and I sat quietly on thousands of dollars of unreimbursed expenses for close to a year because the church chose to care for our wounded pastor instead of us. I know our wounded pastor received counseling, but it took over two years for anyone to think that maybe the leftover pastoral staff might need counseling but just not have the financial means to pay for it. We were promised apologies from our wounded pastor from our overseer board that never came. I remember holding onto that false hope that one day there would be restoration, that he would set the tone for reconciliation and apologize to us. It never came. It was the final betrayal that made me realize how foolish I was ever to trust him.

Stop placing your hope in a celebrity name.

So when you use your social media platform to say, “Pray for Perry”, and “He doesn’t need your judgment now”, please remember that there are voiceless, faceless, non-celebrity, everyday people who will wake up and go to pick up the pieces from this.  They are hurting, they are angry, and they don’t have the luxury of “taking a break to heal.” Pray for them, too. You won’t get as many likes on Twitter for that, but I promise you that it’s these faceless people who are our next generation of pastors, who I believe will learn deep, formative lessons from this, and will make much wiser decisions about the theology, practices, and pastoral care that they provide in the churches of the future. There is hope, but place your hope not in a celebrity name. Rather, place your hope in what I believe is God’s plan to use tragedy to teach staff and volunteers placed in the middle of destruction the lessons that will form them into the pastors God has called them to be.  


I am so grateful to FCS for opening my eyes to the pain of the mid-level church staffer and thank her for sharing with us.

Comments

The Hell Faced By Church Staff When Lead Pastors Like Perry Noble Are Substance Abusers — 288 Comments

  1. The character of a person is often revealed by how they treat their subordinates. I forget where I read or heard that, but I believe it has a biblical root. Caring for the “least of these” and the powerless (who cannot pay us back) is clearly a major teaching of Jesus. A leader who comes to be served rather than serve is not a Christlike leader.

    Grief. That is the word that came to mind when reading most of the post. So much grief with all the anger and other messy emotions with it being complicated by the lies and misinformation coming from various actors–e.g. the addict–in the situation. We don’t do grief well as a culture.

    Finally, I remember hearing at an Acts 29 conference back in 2009 or so where the prophet-priest-king leadership model was touted that the pastoral pastors (priests) are “a dime a dozen.” Evangelicals place a huge emphasis on the preacher (prophetic) and the manager (king) types. But a crisis like these require wise priests or shepherds who understand dynamics of substance abuse, spiritual abuse, and grief. Theologically, I truly believe messes like these come about in part as a theological fruit of devaluing the pastoral leaders in our midst as they aren’t usually flashy or bringing in a lot of money like the other types.

  2. “When you have a dynamic speaker like Perry coupled with a church government system that systematically separates the decision makers from the pulse of the mid to lower level staff and the key volunteers and members, coupled with an environment that naturally attracts people with little to no theological discernment, it is always a recipe for disaster. It’s the perfect environment for a high-functioning alcoholic, because they can very easily control people’s perception of them.”

    It’s not just the alcoholics who flourish in this kind if system. My former pastor was not an alcohol abuser as far as I know, but he was using pornography and very abusive to his staff. When our elder board finally stood up together and tried to get rid of him, he brought in a leader from the New Apostolic Reformation, who declared him “apostolic” and the elder board lacking in enough apostolic authority to discipline him. He’s an apostle and they’re not, only apostles can correct him. I am not making this up. The elders and majority of the ministry leaders left and he is still there, being the apostle to the sheep that stayed behind. It’s disgusting.

  3. FCS, what you describe reminds me of going to Fuddruckers.

    Messes left everywhere, carelessly and thoughtlessly so. the quiet busperson (still learning english) comes along with his/her bin and wet rag & faithfully, dutifully, energetically cleans it all up. no complaints. no sighing. they just do it. for minimum wage. (they clearly know the value of a job and appreciate it)

    such people are invisible. no one acknowledges their presence, even. let alone their work with enables people to have a nice place to be.

  4. FCS, I’m very sorry for what you have had to endure. I agree that the celebrity pastor model needs to be changed, but it’s not just mega churches. The pastor has become far too important in the American church model in general. The neoCals are all about obeying and building up your pastor regardless of the size of the church.

    I believe part of the problem is the sermon being the central part of service. The church Paul describes in 1Corinthians 14:26-33 does not sound like it has a main pastor. Any number of people may contribute to the service (except, of course, women). Psalms, prayers, teaching, and prophesying were all mixed together.

    I have never confessed this here but I am on staff at a mega church. The church grew over many decades thanks to the work of our pastor. It’s impossible to personally Shepherd 5000 people so we have a large staff that helps. We also have a teaching team for the sermons on Sundays. Unfortunately, attendance goes down when the lead pastor is not preaching. It is not our lead pastors desire to be a celebrity at all. I do think part of the problem really is our American culture and the need for a “king” just like the Israelites wanted in Judges.

  5. @ A.Stacey:
    No. He is not going away. He is going to cheer the next guy to 100,000. Oh dear. Good thing the church elders have his approval for their current actions.

    Don’t they take devices away in rehab?

  6. Dee, your final paragraph “Stop placing your hope in a celebrity name” should be circulated across cyberspace. Thank you for this post.

    Thank you FCS for the courage to speak, for the insight you provide. Your story has served as a voice for numerous others who read this and say Amen. Their voices are lost in all the noise focused on fallen leaders. You have reminded us that church staff serving under oppressive leaders are caught in the middle of these tragedies; they look for a light at the end of the tunnel, while experiencing hell in the hallway. Our prayers should indeed be focused on them.

  7. “When our elder board finally stood up together and tried to get rid of him, he brought in a leader from the New Apostolic Reformation, who declared him “apostolic” and the elder board lacking in enough apostolic authority to discipline him”
    ++++++++++++++++

    “I’m an apostle. Watch how apostolic i am!:|)” gimme a break. as if anyone really knows what that word means (apart from NT leader-y folk who saw Jesus in the flesh, and “sent one”).

    sent by who, when, how do you know and so what? (since we can rule out ‘i seen jesus in the flesh’). sounds like a con artist to me.

    apostolic schmapostolic

  8. Anonymous wrote:

    he brought in a leader from the New Apostolic Reformation, who declared him “apostolic” and the elder board lacking in enough apostolic authority to discipline him. He’s an apostle and they’re not, only apostles can correct him. I am not making this up.

    Sounds very similar to the attitude of the Calvinista leaders regarding their boys. Which demonstrates that the lust for power is neither constrained nor determined by theological system.

  9. “…the mid to lower level staff at that church. They are the forgotten ones. Everyone will pray for Perry and “NewSpring” as a whole. The church will pay for Perry to get the help he needs. But it’s that mid to lower level staff that will have to wake up today and go try to pick up the pieces of Perry’s destruction.”

    “People speak of giving Perry grace, but no one will give these faceless, nameless lower-level church staffers grace. No one gave us grace. We sat on thousands of dollars expenses that the church owed us so the church could give our pastor the “grace” of a severance package. No one gave us trauma counseling, but our pastor had the grace of having that paid for.
    +++++++++++++

    i’m going with Simon Sinek — Leaders Eat Last.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReRcHdeUG9Y

    (as always, christian culture is behind the 8 ball, sidetracked by some obsession to be ‘biblical’ contortionists, at the expense of the obvious and common sense)

  10. “The mid level staff at NewSpring may be forgotten during this crisis.”

    ‘They will be silenced ….’

    I wonder how often this shows up in toxic situations?

    We saw this yesterday in the post over at SBCvoices, where the advice was, this:
    “He needs your mouth……to stay shut! ”

    Well, sometimes the ‘silence’ is deafening. The secrecy of ‘insane salary’ and mis-use of credit cards to purchase alchohol,
    ultimately paid for by the tithes of the sheep, and yet the silence of the lambs is not requested, but demanded

    Being groomed not to ask questions ….. I had the strange experience of getting slammed for asking questions on some blogs …. the name-calling, the insinuations, the insults all said to me: ‘maybe they want silence because they don’t have all the answers and they are too proud to admit it’ but not too proud to attack, belittle, and attempt to humiliate anyone who DARES to question what is going on

  11. It would be very Kassian of me to tell abused staff that they should have recognized and fled an abusive leader. Looking from the outside that can be easy, but there are all kinds of reasons that someone can get trapped in an abusive relationship with an employer. It isn’t always obvious what is going on.

    Oddly the escape often occurs not when the victim has had enough and leaves but when they are forced out or fired. Later when their head clears will they see how abusive their boss was.

    It is a difficult balance, while is it very useful to help others recognize unhealthy and abusive organizational cultures, I need to remind myself not to judge victims who were unable to recognize it or were unable to escape.

  12. Gram3 wrote:

    Sounds very similar to the attitude of the Calvinista leaders regarding their boys. Which demonstrates that the lust for power is neither constrained nor determined by theological system.

    I think Calvinistas choose that system because they view it as a direct way to power.

  13. FCS, thank you for telling your story.

    I will start praying for the lower staff feeling crushed and trapped by this situation.

  14. “On one hand, we are more hardened and cynical than we’ve ever been, but on the other hand…”–FCS
    +++++++++

    you’re in good company. i prefer to call it “realistic” and “matter of fact”.

  15. I have not weighed in on the alcoholism issue, because it did not affect me directly. But it affected my late Irish-American mom. When she was a very young woman in South Boston, she had good jobs as a hat model (she was gorgeous) and later as a Rosie-the-Riveter. She lived at home and desperately wanted to move out, because her alcoholic brother, also a gambling addict, was robbing her blind. She used to sleep with her watch under her pillow so he wouldn’t steal and pawn it. But every time she tried to move out, her mother guilted her into staying.

    Finally she married my dad on the rebound from another guy. Big mistake (although my siblings and I were the result)…but she was just so desperate to get away from her hellish home situation without incurring the guilt-tripping of her mom. Ugh.

    My mom had a lot of issues (such as control freakery, which I understand is fairly common among co-dependents of alcoholics), but she was definitely more sinned against than sinning.

    I take after my Italian dad. I love wine, but I have zero desire to get drunk. Mildly tipsy is more than enough. It’s a Sicilian Thing. 🙂

  16. Wow. Eye opening. Many have experienced workplace agony. But add in the religion aspect? Exacerbates it a hundredfold.
    Unfortunately these stories have become so commonplace that the take home message for me is stay away from church.

  17. ishy wrote:

    I think Calvinistas choose that system because they view it as a direct way to power.

    They pay their dues under a controlling influence to eventually have the same power over others. All sounds like Jesus doesn’t it?

  18. Jack wrote:

    Unfortunately these stories have become so commonplace that the take home message for me is stay away from church.

    Or prayerfully find the Church embedded in church and worship with them. God has always preserved a remnant, the Church within the church. You may not find them in an institution – some of them are “done” with that – but the faithful are in your community … pray that God will show you who they are and where they meet. Look for where God is working and join Him there. You don’t have to go to church to be the Church.

  19. elastigirl wrote:

    “On one hand, we are more hardened and cynical than we’ve ever been, but on the other hand…”–FCS
    +++++++++

    you’re in good company. i prefer to call it “realistic” and “matter of fact”.

    Me too. :o)

  20. FCS, thank you for your heartfelt words. Refreshing and eye-opening. My wife and I are currently praying about becoming church planters, and this just reminds me that it is very important to have real accountability set up, rather than pseudo-rules that don’t apply to the higher-ups.

    Deebs, do you have any recommended resources for helping with accountability? I wrote a few during my time making church employee handbooks, but they are more HR focused:
    https://genuinehr.com/sample-forms/church-office-policies/

    And I know Phoenix Preacher has a suggested Pastor Review Form:
    http://michaelnewnham.com/?page_id=22689

    Any other resources would be appreciated. The young denomination we are involved in is more focused on getting the right person the right training, rather than the nitty-gritty of accountability structure.
    Thanks.

  21. FCS… Thank you very much for sharing your experiences/feelings/thoughts/etc… Your perspective is fundamental to exposing the seriousness of these types of problems.

    As quick side note, that American Airlines tweet “dust-up” really is reveling.. I travel allot, and have had many, many challenging situations… I shutter to think how he would have reacted to some of the situations that I have been in….. lost luggage, and delivering the wrong one is very minor.. This is not to say that i am so great/experienced, etc.. just to say that I guess he thinks he is above the rest of us and every thing should go his way? I shutter to think how he acts when things did not go “his way” at “his” church… This corroborates with what FCS is saying…

  22. P.S… if you read what “church staffers” said about Mark Driscoll, and how he treated people, you get further corroboration of what FCS is saying…

    These “celebrity pastors” really do seem to behave like spoiled little children..or spoiled CEO’s!

  23. Dee, on my Miss Daisy Twitter, I sent you a Direct Message (private note).
    ——
    As to the lady in the Tweet in the OP asking about “where is the proof of physical abuse.”

    Is she in denial that abuse can be emotional, verbal, relational / social(some abusers isolate their target), and / or financial?

    A lot of abusers will use threats (emotional/ verbal) to imply they are going to physically harm their target (even if, at the time, they don’t have plans on doing so), which is often enough to make most targets comply (and which they realize).

    This book explains how verbal abuse works and how it can be just as harmful as physical abuse:

    The Verbally Abusive Relationship
    https://books.google.com/books?id=XWgxgogz3aAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false

  24. elastigirl wrote:

    such people are invisible. no one acknowledges their presence, even. let alone their work with enables people to have a nice place to be.

    But you acknowledge them elastigirl and give them a humanity, which says a lot. Most of our self-absorbed culture does not, and would just as soon treat them as genomically engineered fabricants grown in womb-tanks.

  25. @ Jack:

    “Wow. Eye opening. Many have experienced workplace agony. But add in the religion aspect? Exacerbates it a hundredfold.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    agreed. is it because of making oneself vulnerable?

    trust is a big concept in church. church bills itself (implicitly) as a place you can trust, with people you can trust. you are encouraged (directed, even) to trust people (leaders and lays), and to trust God. lots of vulnerability on different levels.

    when people prove themselves as not having been worthy of your trust (through a variety of means), it’s especially destructive (because it was personal, or at least you believed it was).

    when God is brought into the equation, clearly he let it happen, he didn’t prevent it. exponentially destructive.

  26. Bill M wrote:

    It would be very Kassian of me to tell abused staff that they should have recognized and fled an abusive leader.

    If it ever comes to that, Bill M., we’ll do a quick internet search and see what a judge wrote about your lack of credibility/hone$sty in a whipla$h law$uit. You know – the year$ of meal$ you’ve a$ked for, $oapbubble $ubmi$$ion fund$ for not being able to do di$she$, reimbur$ement for chee$y book lo$$e$, and..Advil. We will try to contain our dismay that you were able to rock climb, take your team white water river rafting, and shovel snow.

    I need to remind myself not to judge victims who were unable to recognize it or were unable to escape.

    I call it Spiritual Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. People go in with the best of intentions and are knocked out cold. Odorless, tasteless, deadly.

  27. @ Muff Potter:

    “…genomically engineered fabricants grown in womb-tanks.”
    +++++++++

    i wish i hadn’t chuckled.

    since the point is a sober one.

    but i’m putting that one in my back pocket. for just the right moment, just the right person. (if i can remember all the words)

    “well, see, there’s your problem. you just see us as genetically engineered….fob…fabulous…FABRICANTS grown in worm tanks! womb tanks!”

  28. A.Stacey wrote:

    BOOM… This not what I wanted to see.

    0_O This is completely a bad sign. There’s simply no getting around it. In my non-expert, non-familiar opinion, Noble should be taking the opportunity to get his head together and figure out what he’s going to do next. A stay in a rehab can be very clarifying in that regard (or so I have been told, I’ve never been to rehab, but I’m told that it can really help you focus). Putting out messages to your ex-church three days after the world found out you were fired…this is not a good thing.

    Why do I have this feeling I’m gonna see Perry Noble in my neck of the desert soonish?

  29. @ Christiane:

    “getting slammed for asking questions on some blogs …. the name-calling, the insinuations, the insults all said to me: ‘maybe they want silence because they don’t have all the answers and they are too proud to admit it’ but not too proud to attack, belittle, and attempt to humiliate anyone who DARES to question what is going on”
    ++++++++++++++

    sounds like some frightened little boys, donning bravado. with a bunch of wallflowers piling on, emboldened in order to join the bravado club. “yeah, we sure told her, di’n’t we!”

    😐

    where’s the inner strength? why so easily intimidated & threatened? it’s so unimpressive.

  30. @ Kemi:

    “I believe part of the problem is the sermon being the central part of service. The church Paul describes in 1Corinthians 14:26-33 does not sound like it has a main pastor. Any number of people may contribute to the service (except, of course, women). Psalms, prayers, teaching, and prophesying were all mixed together.

    I have never confessed this here but I am on staff at a mega church”
    +++++++++++++++++

    agreed. do you have thoughts on how to make this happen in as large a context as the ‘mega church’?

    i’m totally done with sitting & listening to a man give a (utterly predictable) sermon. daydreamcity. not time well-spent.

  31. EricL wrote:

    My wife and I are currently praying about becoming church planters, and this just reminds me that it is very important to have real accountability set up, rather than pseudo-rules that don’t apply to the higher-ups.

    Maybe you could check out Bent Tree church (Pete Briscoe) in TX., Dee’s former church
    with men and women pastors.

    Also, Wade Burleson’s church in Enid, OK and his blog. He’s the pastor here for E-Church on Sundays.

    *****************
    Things I’ve learned after a bad church experience at a smaller church:

    *Avoid Membership Covenants (Wade discusses this on his blog)
    *Church Discipline (the whole Matt 18 thing is ripe for abuse and is applied capricioulsy)
    *Avoid 9Marks/Mark Dever as while the rules seem, on the surface ok, they are a form of bondage and suffocate the Holy Spirit, and create an elite class.

    Some things I’d like to see:
    *Something to be said for polity – such as congregational votes and elder rule.
    *Something to be said for women in leadership.

  32. elastigirl wrote:

    why so easily intimidated

    I wasn’t trying to intimidate, I was looking for some dialogue because the use of the word ‘biblical’, as in ‘the biblical gospel’, was confusing to someone who did not have that terminology in her own tradition. So I asked. It was not an ‘attack’, no. But the reaction was ‘defensive’ and I remember thinking at the time that a lot of the ‘phrases’ being used in that blog were not well-defined, but were more like ‘code’ phrases, identifying ‘who we are’ as an in-group, rather than ‘what we hold to be handed down from the Apostles through the ages’. I had touched a nerve, and I didn’t even know the name of the game.

  33. @ mot:

    “Almost always are male bloggers!”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    i’m afraid so. simply powers of observation, fellas, nothing more.

  34. @ Christiane:

    “I wasn’t trying to intimidate”
    +++++++++++

    Oh, no doubt, Christiane. ‘the biblical gospel’ is just plain stupid. like saying the fruity strawberry (as opposed to the unfruity strawberry).

    i think the nerve you touched was “we bad! we bad!”, strutting along.

  35. Kemi wrote:

    The church Paul describes in 1Corinthians 14:26-33 does not sound like it has a main pastor. Any number of people may contribute to the service (except, of course, women). Psalms, prayers, teaching, and prophesying were all mixed together.

    There’s a school of thought that verses 34 and 35 are quotes from the letter we know Paul was answering here, and his answer “What? Did the word of God come only to you?” is his rebuking the men who are trying to shut the women up. We know the word of God didn’t come only to men.

  36. My church, with a few hundred members, has spent the last two years recovering from a pastor with untreated mental illness while he was trying to remake our church to his specifications. My church has elders who truly oversee and follow the wishes of the membership. But, they made the mistake of trying to help the pastor without being transparent with the congregation, and this pastor did not want help.

    When the public meltdowns and tantrums began , the elders began to move, but it was too late. We lost a lot of good people and a few of our staff. People stopped giving.

    Finally, the elders came before the congregation and asked our forgiveness. They promised to be transparent in the future, and they kept that promise. We are welcoming a new pastor at the end of the summer. And, he is the lead pastor, but not a mini CEO.

    Whatever church leaders are called, they need to lead. No one person should be allowed to take too much power. It is the reason I won’t attend a mega-church with a big name pastor.

  37. elastigirl wrote:

    where’s the inner strength?

    I’m wondering the same thing. After all they are brimming full of “sanctified testosterone”
    (Council On Biblical Manhood Womanhood Conference, 2016).

  38. @ Linn:

    Just recently Deb and her husband came up with the best solution (in my opinion) to this problem. Have the governing board of a church polity draw a up a legal contract which says in binding contractual clauses to any Pastor:
    “You work for us, we don’t work for you.”
    If he won’t sign it and play ball, send him packing and find somebody who will.

  39. So many people taking over the blog and shouting their story over and over again, there are many soft spoken people who have their own story that just don’t want to compete with the shouters. Give other people a turn

  40. Bill M wrote:

    It would be very Kassian of me to tell abused staff that they should have recognized and fled an abusive leader. Looking from the outside that can be easy, but there are all kinds of reasons that someone can get trapped in an abusive relationship with an employer. It isn’t always obvious what is going on.

    I think there probably is a lot of turnover in churches like this, too.

    Just from abusive employers that I’ve had, people turned over at a fast rate, and those that stayed often had spent several years trying to find a job, were looking on the side, and/or there was enough baiting and guilting of the best employees to keep them around longer. And, reasonably, you’re afraid that that person will give you a horrible job review for future jobs, even though the problem was all theirs.

    Just imagining this in a megachurch setting, people are depending on you spiritually, you are afraid God will be disappointed, and upper leaders are maybe even telling you that they will make sure you never work in ministry again.

  41. ishy wrote:

    Just imagining this in a megachurch setting, people are depending on you spiritually, you are afraid God will be disappointed, and upper leaders are maybe even telling you that they will make sure you never work in ministry again.

    Forgot to add that most of these churches had abusive membership contracts, so I can only imagine what was in their staff contracts. I wonder if some were even illegal.

  42. Divorce Minister wrote:

    The character of a person is often revealed by how they treat their subordinates. I forget where I read or heard that…

    It may have been from the pen of J.K. Rowling, who in turn put it into the mouth of Sirius Black. But the idea’s much older, I’m sure; TBH it’s an extension of “Whoever can be trusted with a little can be trusted with much”.

  43. From the original post:
    What does it mean to give people grace?

    Grace for an addicted person can easily turn into enabling that person to continue in his or her destructive behaviors. Sometimes the most grace-filled response to an addicted person is to allow them to fall and sometimes that fall. This can be very hard and very painful for both the addicted person and the people who really care about the addicted person (and not their own or someone else’s reputation.)

  44. Not sure what happened with the formatting on the previous comment–it was unintended.

  45. As an alcoholic who married another alcoholic, I can say that the last thing Perry Noble needs is to be kept from the consequences of his actions. Alcoholism is a disease, yes, but while our alcoholism explains our insane (and abusive) behavior, it does not excuse it. I was a high-functioning alcoholic, and I kept my drinking well hidden for many years. I did my active damage to others when I wasn’t drinking – what we call a “dry drunk” – but did a lot of passive damage while drunk through neglect and indifference. Either way I was doing damage to everyone around me until I got into the right 12 step program. (I half-assed Al-Anon for about 6 months before a close friend told me I needed to stop drinking for a while, and I realized I couldn’t, and started going to AA.)

    I would suggest that people who have been harmed by Perry Noble who can’t afford counseling, to seek out an Al-Anon group. Al-Anon is for family and friends of alcoholics. It makes a huge difference to talk to and listen to people who understand what it’s like to live/work with an alcoholic and all the insanity that goes with it.

    Yes, Perry Noble needs our prayers, but he needs humility and accountability every bit as much. Otherwise, the cycle of addiction will just keep repeating itself, and he will continue to wreak havoc on everyone around him – family, friends, staff, and congregants.

  46. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    These “celebrity pastors” really do seem to behave like spoiled little children..or spoiled CEO’s!

    The church really needs to wake up to the fact that we have some preachers in the pulpit that don’t need to be there! We have mistaken the gift of gab and charismatic persona for a calling from God in far too many places. We have brought the gimmicks of the world into the church to draw a crowd, and the church is falling for it due to a lack of spiritual discernment. When you can get thousands to follow potty-mouth preachers, the church is in desperate need for a new measure of discernment in the ranks. Deception was already at work in first century church, causing John to warn “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, to see whether they are from God.” We need to be just as diligent – if not more so – in 21st century church.

  47. Max wrote:

    The church really needs to wake up to the fact that we have some preachers in the pulpit that don’t need to be there! We have mistaken the gift of gab and charismatic persona for a calling from God in far too many places

    Another great comment. You all should be writing this blog!!!!

  48. ishy wrote:

    I can only imagine what was in their staff contracts

    Undoubtedly, some form of “never question the pastor and elders about our words and actions” are embedded in staff contracts where authoritarian leaders have set up camp.

  49. dee wrote:

    Max wrote:
    The church really needs to wake up to the fact that we have some preachers in the pulpit that don’t need to be there! We have mistaken the gift of gab and charismatic persona for a calling from God in far too many places
    Another great comment. You all should be writing this blog!!!!

    Hmmmmm …… If you can’t be a rock star, be a preacher.

  50. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    These “celebrity pastors” really do seem to behave like spoiled little children..or spoiled CEO’s!

    These guys would never make it with human resources looking over their shoulder.

  51. dee wrote:

    You all should be writing this blog!!!!

    But we are! You just get us started in the right direction! ;^)

  52. Nancy2 wrote:

    If you can’t be a rock star, be a preacher.

    Think about it. If some of these pulpit celebrities were not preaching, what would they do?! WWDD (What Would Driscoll Do?). If you have a little charisma, and “spiritual” motivation, you can convince others that you are a preacher – called by God for such a time as this. Add a little theological education to your resume, and you are on your way to mega-world, with more power to control and manipulate the bigger and better into your life.

  53. Max wrote:

    Undoubtedly, some form of “never question the pastor and elders about our words and actions” are embedded in staff contracts where authoritarian leaders have set up camp.

    I know Mars Hill had NDAs, so that could even have been used to say they couldn’t solve problems caused by other staff. And maybe they had non-compete clauses that said they couldn’t work in ministry elsewhere for several years.

  54. @ EricL:

    Handbook for Battered Leaders by Janis Bragan Balsa,PH.D and Wesley D. Balsa, PH.D.

    Eldership and the Mission of God by J.R. Biggs and Bob Hyatt

    The Equipping Church & Guidebook, Zondervan

  55. Irishlass wrote:

    So many people taking over the blog and shouting their story over and over again, there are many soft spoken people who have their own story that just don’t want to compete with the shouters. Give other people a turn

    The internet is a boon for the soft spoken, every voice is equal. Please tell your story. Every story is important and needs to be heard.

  56. @ Max:

    “We have brought the gimmicks of the world into the church to draw a crowd, and the church is falling for it due to a lack of spiritual discernment.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    or just plain objective thinking.

  57. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    Irishlass
    So many people taking over the blog and shouting their story over and over again, there are many soft spoken people who have their own story that just don’t want to compete with the shouters. Give other people a turn
    Tell us your story; though I have never told my story here in its entirety, I have given glimpses. I have found that the similarities of my story to many that are told here has been healing–others with the courage to tell their’s are telling mine, if that makes any sense.

    Good idea. Tell us your story.

    Also feel free to comment just like you see others doing. Commenting is like Love. The more people doing it, the better.

  58. elastigirl wrote:

    or just plain objective thinking

    Agreed! Much of discernment is just simple observation … opening our eyes, listening with our ears … measuring what we see and hear objectively. Church folks ensnared in ministries like those covered on TWW have developed a bias in which personal feelings, interpretations, and prejudice blind them from the reality at hand. Such pews are setting up celebrity pulpits to fall.

  59. I don’t have a twitter account but I look at it from time to time. I’ve seen some people encouraging Noble to start a new church, saying they’d follow him.
    Also, someone started a petition to try to reinstate Noble http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/reinstate-pastor-p

    Yes, the followers do hold responsibility for their part in raising up human leaders above what God intends and for lack of discernment and wisdom. They are fans more than disciples.

  60. ishy wrote:

    maybe they had non-compete clauses that said they couldn’t work in ministry elsewhere for several years

    To church staffers listening into this, “non-compete clauses” in employment contracts are designed to control, intimidate, and manipulate you. A man and his organization cannot prevent you legally from seeking another ministry position. Sure, they can network lies about you to hinder your job search, but why would you want to work somewhere that is connected with and listens to such authoritarian pastors?

  61. Nancy2 wrote:

    Am I way off base here, or does this sound kinda like, “if you love me, feed my sheep.” ?

    Well, Perry Noble ain’t Jesus! He should be exhorting the NewSpring flock “If you love Jesus, find His Church” … rather than “If you love Perry, keep going to NewSpring.” Things are so upside down in this sad chapter of church history.

  62. siteseer wrote:

    I’ve seen some people encouraging Noble to start a new church, saying they’d follow him.

    Therein lies the power of a celebrity pastor. Eventually, of course, he will start a new church and they will be waiting in the wings to see how he re-invents himself. It’s part of the aura surrounding icons; the gullible will follow you anywhere.

  63. Max wrote:

    To church staffers listening into this, “non-compete clauses” in employment contracts are designed to control, intimidate, and manipulate you. A man and his organization cannot prevent you legally from seeking another ministry position. Sure, they can network lies about you to hinder your job search, but why would you want to work somewhere that is connected with and listens to such authoritarian pastors?

    They are actually quite common in my line of work. Most have a distance clause (ie. mine says I can’t start a competing business within 60 miles of where I currently work), but I wonder if the wording is such that it doesn’t quite seem like a non-compete clause until they tell you it is after you start working for them, and make you think it’d be relegated to any ministry position, not just a certain type.

    With the other lies I’ve seen from some of these churches, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a good amount of manipulative sleight of hand and unenforceable legalese.

    And I would imagine many think they couldn’t get any higher than some of these megachurches, so they think it’s no big deal until they see behind the curtain. And then you’d live in terror that they’d come after you. We’ve seen how Noble’s staff went after a critic, so I wouldn’t be surprised to hear worse on someone who actually knows what’s going on behind the scenes and is trying to bring it to light.

  64. @ Irishlass:

    hi, Irishlass.

    i look forward to hearing your story.

    i know what it’s like to be sitting at a dining room table with many people all in lively conversation and, like trying to jump onto a fast moving train, not being able to find the right moment to join in.

    (and then when i do take that flying leap, i get the deer in the headlights from everyone, who after a moment of silent stupor simply pick up where they left off & jabber on.)

    i don’t think this is quite like that. i don’t think it’s not going as fast and as loud as it might seem. in truth, i think many who comment here are soft-spoken.

    i know i & many others read every comment — i don’t always respond, even to those which really impact me (one of those things where i ‘think’ my response and it’s as though i actually communicated it, not realizing it didn’t actually happen.)

    you will be read and appreciated. please share your story! 🙂

  65. @ elastigirl:

    “i don’t think it’s not going as”
    ++++++++++

    that would be, i don’t think it’s going as…

    double negatives i cannot abide

  66. siteseer wrote:

    Also, someone started a petition to try to reinstate Noble

    Wow. That petition is something else. It says, “Let’s make Perry Noble great again!”

    For some reason it has been closed. I wonder if the person who started it was given more information about what happened behind the scenes.

    That’s the problem with the lack of transparency. The average pew-sitter had no idea about the destruction going on. When PN’s firing was announced they didn’t go into enough detail. They were still covering up for him, and now many people are assuming it was unjust.

  67. The comments on that petition are disturbing. Talk about brainwashed! Although, one thing I like: many of them correctly refer to him as “Pastor P.” Don’t forget to flush.

    siteseer wrote:

    someone started a petition

  68. siteseer wrote:

    I don’t have a twitter account but I look at it from time to time. I’ve seen some people encouraging Noble to start a new church, saying they’d follow him.
    Also, someone started a petition to try to reinstate Noble http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/reinstate-pastor-p
    Yes, the followers do hold responsibility for their part in raising up human leaders above what God intends and for lack of discernment and wisdom. They are fans more than disciples.

    I tweeted back to that woman Carol, behind the petition, that I know that she’s hurting right now and to go to some Al-Anon meetings or Christian recovery. She blocked me from viewing her tweets, as she’s done to others already.

    Before she blocked me I read her twitter feed. She seemed to have a very addictive personality as well. Walks 12 miles a day, constantly talks about her flat stomach, etc.

  69. Max wrote:

    To church staffers listening into this, “non-compete clauses” in employment contracts are designed to control, intimidate, and manipulate you.

    In business the story goes you hire someone, they carve out their own clientele while you are providing them income, and then they leave and take those clients you had developed over the years. There are variations I’ve seen where the person had developed those contacts entirely on their own and there was no hard feelings at parting. In other cases the person leaving acted unethically.

    The non-compete clauses were used to set expectations but I have not seen one enforced in my community.

    It would be interesting if non-compete clauses for church staff have already been used by some. I would not put it past the glitterati to implement them for lower level staffer, in that case it could and would be used to intimidate and control. If a staff member has a disagreement with the authoritarian pastor and they signed a non-compete clause, they would have to forgo income and move from the community. Such a legal restriction would give way too much power for a pastor over people.

    So in light of Max’s input, I would amend the non-compete clause proposal out there to apply only to new incoming pastor.

  70. Laura wrote:

    Kemi wrote:
    The church Paul describes in 1Corinthians 14:26-33 does not sound like it has a main pastor. Any number of people may contribute to the service (except, of course, women). Psalms, prayers, teaching, and prophesying were all mixed together.
    There’s a school of thought that verses 34 and 35 are quotes from the letter we know Paul was answering here, and his answer “What? Did the word of God come only to you?” is his rebuking the men who are trying to shut the women up. We know the word of God didn’t come only to men.

    Now that’s an interesting thought about verses 34 and 35 and really makes sense.

  71. @ Max:

    “Much of discernment is just simple observation … opening our eyes, listening with our ears … measuring what we see and hear objectively.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    indeed. as i see it, the word “spiritual discernment” shuts down objective thinking. suddenly, we second-guess ourselves. with all the christian emphasis on contrasting the spiritual and the natural, or the taboo notion of ‘carnal’, i think some people have been trained to be downright terrified of ‘the natural’, certainly of the concept of ‘carnal’. and so they doubt their gut feelings, leave them unaddressed.

    especially when their gut feelings go against what the smiley group is doing and affirming. especially especially when said smiley group is invoking God in what they’re doing. gut feelings that rub up against “God” and “what God is doing!” have a good chance of being snuffed out.

    my personal feeling is that gut feelings and intuition are God-given survival skills, just like adrenalin that kicks in to save oneself and loved ones out danger. it is prudent to give them priority over the concept of ‘spiritual’.

  72. What is the future of Newspring Church? http://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/local/south-carolina/2016/07/11/what-future-newspring-church/86940464/

    Sidenote, re: Perry’s ‘bad year with alcohol’:

    Noble addressed his problems with alcohol in his first book, “Unleash!”, which was published in 2012.

    “On one particular occasion, I remember hugging the toilet and promising God that if He would sober me up and make the rock concert in my head go away, I would never drink again. In fact, I’d become a missionary in the Congo!” he wrote. “Just a few short weeks later, I was back to hitting the bottle.”

  73. @ elastigirl:

    I agree- I find that those who have discernment in the body of Christ are also those that have good discernment skills elsewhere, as well. It’s their temperament. I think it has to do with being aware of inconsistencies and being perceptive in certain ways.

    I think that the gifts God gives to function in the church are likely the different temperaments he gives people so that they all function together, filling the needs. And, while the Bible speaks of people having ‘gifts’ in certain areas, it also calls on all of us to develop our skills. For instance, there is a ‘gift’ of teaching but all are to endeavor towards the goal of being ‘able to teach.’

  74. elastigirl wrote:

    i know what it’s like to be sitting at a dining room table with many people all in lively conversation and, like trying to jump onto a fast moving train, not being able to find the right moment to join in.

    (and then when i do take that flying leap, i get the deer in the headlights from everyone, who after a moment of silent stupor simply pick up where they left off & jabber on.)

    Ha- I relate to this! Good to know I’m not the only one.

  75. elastigirl wrote:

    i know what it’s like to be sitting at a dining room table with many people all in lively conversation and, like trying to jump onto a fast moving train, not being able to find the right moment to join in.
    (and then when i do take that flying leap, i get the deer in the headlights from everyone, who after a moment of silent stupor simply pick up where they left off & jabber on.)

    LOL! I can relate! I’m not a very chatty person so I have to make a real effort to join in so as to not appear stand-offish, but when I finally do…. lol

  76. elastigirl wrote:

    especially when their gut feelings go against what the smiley group is doing and affirming. especially especially when said smiley group is invoking God in what they’re doing. gut feelings that rub up against “God” and “what God is doing!” have a good chance of being snuffed out.

    my personal feeling is that gut feelings and intuition are God-given survival skills, just like adrenalin that kicks in to save oneself and loved ones out danger. it is prudent to give them priority over the concept of ‘spiritual’.

    I survived this for nearly two decades as a teachee in the Calvary Chapel cult.

  77. An additional concern for the mid- and lower-level staff is as Newspring almost inevitably shrinks, they will almost inevitably be the first to lose their jobs. Just as the rhetorical beatings and spiritual abuse tend to fall most heavily on their heads, so do they bear the brunt of the financial crunch that will certainly come. Fat chance the upper-tier leaders will voluntarily take one for the team and cut their salaries unless absolutely forced to by economic inevitability. The problem is, by the time you’ve climbed that high in an ungodly, corrupt organization, you are almost by definition ungodly and corrupt, you’ve learned to look out for your own interests first, and learned well how to pass the pass stuff down.

  78. Bill M wrote:

    The non-compete clauses were used to set expectations but I have not seen one enforced in my community.

    I’m in California. The California Supreme Court unanimously ruled that non-compete agreements are illegal in CA, unenforceable, and that employers who have them can be sued for violating CA’s unfair business practices law.

    https://www.littler.com/you-cant-do-what-california-summary-californias-virtually-nonexistent-restrictive-covenant-laws-out

  79. Muff Potter wrote:

    But you acknowledge them elastigirl and give them a humanity, which says a lot. Most of our self-absorbed culture does not, and would just as soon treat them as genomically engineered fabricants grown in womb-tanks.

    Check out the word “Underpeople” and author Cordwainer Smith…

  80. Velour wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    where’s the inner strength?

    I’m wondering the same thing. After all they are brimming full of “sanctified testosterone”
    (Council On Biblical Manhood Womanhood Conference, 2016).

    Who needs inner strength when you have a Sacred Organ full of Precious Bodily Fluids(TM)?

  81. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I’m wondering the same thing. After all they are brimming full of “sanctified testosterone”
    (Council On Biblical Manhood Womanhood Conference, 2016).
    Who needs inner strength when you have a Sacred Organ full of Precious Bodily Fluids(TM)?

    ROFL.

  82. @ DragonLady:

    Hi DragonLady,
    I know exactly where you’re coming from and of what you speak. I can say that cuz’ I’m an old drunk who with the help of his higher power, has not had a drink for 20 years.
    I’m intimately acquainted with the human wreckage even a functioning alcoholic leaves in his or her wake. It’s as toxic as the dead-lands of Chernobyl and I’ve left plenty. It’s half-life never really goes away.
    That is not to say that all people should abstain, many people imbibe responsibly and show no harm to themselves and others.

  83. Law Prof wrote:

    The problem is, by the time you’ve climbed that high in an ungodly, corrupt organization, you are almost by definition ungodly and corrupt, you’ve learned to look out for your own interests first, and learned well how to pass the pass stuff down.

    Straight out of the literary genre of future dystopia.

  84. Through a glass darkly wrote:

    The comments on that petition are disturbing. Talk about brainwashed! Although, one thing I like: many of them correctly refer to him as “Pastor P.” Don’t forget to flush.

    LOL

  85. elastigirl wrote:

    i know what it’s like to be sitting at a dining room table with many people all in lively conversation and, like trying to jump onto a fast moving train, not being able to find the right moment to join in.
    (and then when i do take that flying leap, i get the deer in the headlights from everyone, who after a moment of silent stupor simply pick up where they left off & jabber on.)

    I look to the left and to the right, and everyone’s in a conversation but me. How does this always happen? LOL

  86. @ elastigirl:
    Agree. I read the comments because I learn from the very different perspectives people have. Rare these days to find that.

    Irishlass, please tell your story. Before I started reading here, I thought I was in very small company. Now, I know I’m not alone.

  87. Patriciamc wrote:

    I look to the left and to the right, and everyone’s in a conversation but me. How does this always happen?

    It’s when there’s fewer than three people in the room and it still happens that you need to worry.

    IHTIH

  88. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It’s when there’s fewer than three people in the room and it still happens that you need to worry.

    Food for thought. I’ll see what the voices in my head think.

  89. @ Patriciamc:

    “I look to the left and to the right, and everyone’s in a conversation but me. How does this always happen? LOL”
    ++++++++++++++

    but they’re not. 2 in each group are, the rest may just be feigning interest. you know, nodding head, “mmhm!”, “oh, yeah”, shaking head, “no way”, “you’re kidding!”

    lots of shallow, meaningless conversations w/groupies all around.

    you & me, i think we’re better than that.

    give me a table in a dark corner, a candle, unlimited beverages of choice, and i’ll explore any meaningful topic to the depths with anyone til we fall asleep.

  90. @ Muff Potter:
    20 years is awesome! I’ve got 2.5 years with the help of my Higher Power and a sponsor who calls me out on my BS! 🙂
    With both my husband and I being alcoholics (and addicts, though I stuck with just alcohol since I could drink and still pass a urinalysis), and both being adult children, our poor kids have been through hell. But I still believe in miracles, because I’m a walking miracle. If my Higher Power can restore me to sanity, he can sure heal my kids of the damage we’ve done as we do our best to make amends to them.

  91. For the pastoral staff and overseers that will have to answer hard questions from confused parishioners and will have to walk that very thin line of providing the information you can without SLANDERING Perry in the process…because you’ll try to to do the right thing and not divulge too much personal information, and your congregation will be forced to connect the dots that is not a full picture of what is happening.

    “Slandering”: That word I put in all caps above from the article that FCS wrote, it leaps out because “slander” has nothing whatsoever to do with telling hard, but personal truths about someone else, airing their dirty laundry, it specifically means lying–and only lying–about someone else.

    What has happened is that abusive church leaders (such as, allegedly, Perry Noble) have redefined “slander” to mean anything what they want it to be, such as saying a single word against them, questioning them, telling the truth about what they actually do in private, revealing their actual character so people can make informed decisions about them, being a Berean–but again, none of those are slander and none of them are “gossip” either, because people supporting a church have every reason to know if the one pretending to have the authority to lead them is a sociopathic alcoholic, an abuser, or a sexual predator.

  92. Part of me sympathizes with the staff who will lose jobs and be thrown under the bus to try to preserve the cash cow that is NewSpring.

    But another part of me says “good!” When a system goes against what Jesus teaches, I have a hard time being sympathetic when said system fails.

    To get the Church within the church back to health, a whole lot of jobs will be lost and people who were idol worshippers of any level will be disillusioned.

    For those wanting to find the Church within the church we have had good luck even in the worst churches just attending small group Bible studies. Of course we are rural so there are no megas corrupting things 🙂

    We have set up a system that flagrantly violates what Jesus says about the Church. Why are we shocked when it fails? Why do we fight to purify and preserve it? Why don’t we just do things the way He said?

    As long as the money changers run the temple, nothing will change.

  93. Daisy wrote:

    This book explains how verbal abuse works and how it can be just as harmful as physical abuse:

    Daisy, agreed, and further – it’s high-time the courts, other regulatory agencies and society at large become aware of the power and damage of verbal, emotional and financial abuse. And how abusers can be protected by separating physical abuse from all the other abuse that can be perpetuated. Thinking of abuse as just physical is flawed thinking. If I could put Lundy Bancroft books in every church I would.

  94. Perry Noble and NewSpring Church use Gateway’s David Middlebrook’s law firm The Church Law Group. Middlebrook helps his clients implement ironclad “non-disclosure” and “non-disparage” agreements. These are more dangerous than the “non-compete”. Unreasonable non-competes can be legally set aside and have nothing to do with telling the truth. If an employee violates the non-disclosure and/or non-disparage agreements, these giant organization can and do go after the little people and bury them with legal costs they can’t afford. Thank you FCS for bringing this troubling reality into the light.
    .
    If a “church” feels compelled to bully its staff into fearful silence we should think about that a little more deeply. Which of the realms deals in deception, concealment, cover-ups and lies? Which realm deals in truth and light? Many NS staff members will likely be justifiably concerned about speaking up at all. The leadership has already instructed everyone at NS to not get on social media about this firing.
    .
    I think that’s why Carol’s petition may have closed. But the comments there are troubling to me also (as many other commenters have already pointed out). The thing that I am most troubled about on this is the number of people who want Perry restored quickly and/or completely.
    .
    NS leadership did not fully terminate PN and replace him, lightly. NS is a cult of personality based church with only one teaching pastor with an annual budget of nearly $64M they need to keep bringing in. They are also spending a small fortune to launch two new campuses in the next couple of months. In the Elders’ opinion, Perry’s attitude and actions had to be so completely not restorable that they were willing to take such a draconian action. The Elders say they will not relay any details because that would only embarrass Perry and his family. That is probably true. But telling your flock the truth about the situation may also help the flock move on, and may also help Perry accept accountability for his actions. This process is also Biblical and is covered in Matthew 18.
    .
    NS could close the broadcasting of the opening of their next service and just have their campus pastor read a more detailed statement of what really happened. That only requires a push of a button by the tech arts staff to limit the statement to NS people only. This could go a long way in helping NewSpringers adjust to losing their beloved leader and to helping them heal. In cases like this, the Elders are right. It is a full grieving process and it is their responsibility to make this process less painful. Many have to feel betrayed right now – by Perry for not meeting the bare minimum conditions prescribed to him by the Elders and betrayed by the Elders who may not have given Perry enough grace. Without more details they don’t know which occurred.
    .
    Basic details could help so many people so much. If Perry is in rehab now, why the permanent firing? There is clearly more to this story. This could also really help NS staff who may find themselves exactly like FCS and are now bearing the brunt of flock members not understanding how abusive the situation really was. Truth is light. Light sanitizes. This could help so many people and there is a way to not make it some public pillory. The staff, the leaders and the flock all deserve that kind of transparency and all would benefit from it even Perry.

  95. A.Stacey wrote:

    BOOM… This not what I wanted to see.
    http://www.independentmail.com/news/perry-noble-breaks-silence-in-message-to-newspring-worshippers-37894e8d-d38b-0d42-e053-0100007fb562-386671161.html?d=mobile

    So he’s determined to stick around–but he mentions wanting his daughter to stay in the church before mentioning himself. That’s a rotten thing to do to the daughter, in my opinion.

    I’m not a fan of banning people from church, but this guy really needs to understand that the church will do better without his toxic presence. The congregation can’t possibly face the damage and start recovering if he’s still there.

    Some denominations have mandatory programs for troubled clergy, under denominational oversight. The troubled pastor receives needed help, and the denomination receives an assessment. This reduces the chance that clergy keep causing damage either at their most recent church or in a new location. I know, I know, denominations are so tediously non-anointed… but they do try to promote something like stability.

  96. Nancy2 wrote:

    Am I way off base here, or does this sound kinda like, “if you love me, feed my sheep.” ?

    He said something like, If you love me, keep going to NewSpring.

    I would have been more impressed to hear him say, “If you love God, and if you find that God feeds you at NewSpring, please keep going to NewSpring. I don’t want to cause further turmoil and new divisions; please don’t leave NewSpring on my account. And please don’t worry about me. I have ample help from God and the people around me.”

  97. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It may have been from the pen of J.K. Rowling, who in turn put it into the mouth of Sirius Black. But the idea’s much older, I’m sure; TBH it’s an extension of “Whoever can be trusted with a little can be trusted with much”.

    Observing how people treat those they view as subservient has been my go-to assessment of their character for decades.

    Some quotes I had run into in the past:

    “ The forbearing use of power does not only form a touchstone, but the manner in which an individual enjoys certain advantages over others is a test of a true gentleman.

    The power which the strong have over the weak, the employer over the employed, the educated over the unlettered, the experienced over the confiding, even the clever over the silly–the forbearing or inoffensive use of all this power or authority, or a total abstinence from it when the case admits it, will show the men in a plain light.”

    ~Robert E. Lee

    “I think you may judge of a man’s character by the persons whose affection he seeks. If you find a man seeking only the affection of those who are great, depend upon it he is ambitious and self-seeking; but when you observe that a man seeks the affection of those who can do nothing for him, but for whom he must do everything, you know that he is not seeking himself, but that pure benevolence sways his heart.”

    ~Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    “You can tell about a person’s character by observing how they treat a waiter/waitress.”

    ~Me

  98. Gram3 wrote:

    Which demonstrates that the lust for power is neither constrained nor determined by theological system.

    Absolutely.

    These same characteristics of power aren’t limited to the theological.

    Wherever there are those who have unbounded power over others – the patterns are always the same.

  99. LT wrote:

    Many NS staff members will likely be justifiably concerned about speaking up at all. The leadership has already instructed everyone at NS to not get on social media about this firing.

    Power always demands to be in control of the narrative.

  100. Muff Potter wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    The problem is, by the time you’ve climbed that high in an ungodly, corrupt organization, you are almost by definition ungodly and corrupt, you’ve learned to look out for your own interests first, and learned well how to pass the pass stuff down.
    Straight out of the literary genre of future dystopia.

    Yes. My warning to myself now is to beware what I allow to become my normal. That is how it happens and it isn’t fiction. :o)

  101. It strikes me how much that saying ‘a Church family’ applies here in seeing just how much of the dynamics of a family in crisis also apply to a Church in crisis.

  102. LT wrote:

    The thing that I am most troubled about on this is the number of people who want Perry restored quickly and/or completely.

    Which is a major indication of their immaturity & naivety.

    Somewhere between the SGM-like sin-sniffers and the Driscoll/Noble sin-minimizers – there is a place on that spectrum wherein believers should view sin with some degree of *seriousness*.

    We all sin and therefore all sin is equal is a lie from the pit of hell.

    And it is that foundational belief that undergirds churchdom’s pi$$-poor response to, and handling of, sin.

  103. @ Law Prof:
    One NS pastor has talked about going back to school which led me to suspect they’ve know for a while things aren’t good. Why else does a pastor go back to school to get back into the field they left to pastor.

  104. @ LT:
    Interesting comment!

    My experience with non competes is from long ago but I did know several high level execs who beat them in court. But I am still shocked churches use them. It makes no sense. Is there a judge who will prevent a person from practicing their ministry? I have to think it works to intimidate because a powerful organization and law firm are behind it.

    As to NS being a cult of personality: Bingo!

    Noble is the celebrity draw ( not Christ) and they most certainly will feel the pinch. And yes, there is something else going on.

    There are many questions. Are the elders/BoD paid? (Furtick has an outside board) Does the congregation have any voting rights at all? We are already seeing factions and Noble is fanning the flames by not being silent.

    More to come because money alone fuels these monstrosities we call mega churches.

  105. Velour wrote:

    Bill M wrote:

    The non-compete clauses were used to set expectations but I have not seen one enforced in my community.

    I’m in California. The California Supreme Court unanimously ruled that non-compete agreements are illegal in CA, unenforceable, and that employers who have them can be sued for violating CA’s unfair business practices law.

    https://www.littler.com/you-cant-do-what-california-summary-californias-virtually-nonexistent-restrictive-covenant-laws-out

    Good for California!! It’s one thing to forbid people to disclose trade secrets. It’s quite another to keep them from working in the field they know, the field they’re trained in and have skills in. The former is reasonable. The latter is a direct attack on people’s ability to make a living and support their families.

    This issue is near and dear to my heart. NC doesn’t have a law like y’all’s, alas, but the state does tend to side with the victims of non-competes.

  106. Lydia wrote:

    @ LT:
    Interesting comment!

    My experience with non competes is from long ago but I did know several high level execs who beat them in court. But I am still shocked churches use them. It makes no sense. Is there a judge who will prevent a person from practicing their ministry? I have to think it works to intimidate because a powerful organization and law firm are behind it.

    More to come because money alone fuels these monstrosities we call mega churches.

    To be clear Gateway does not use non-compete agreements, just non-disclosure and non-disparage. Despite providing astronomical pay for the top executives along with great benefits, the have enormous turn-over. Many former Gateway staff and pastors have landed at churches in the DFW area. I am with you, I don’t think a judge, especially in the state of Texas, would uphold a non-compete. Mars Hill was one of the few that openly had them and they got a lot of bad publicity for doing that. That’s what gave rise to the notorious statement from Mark Driscoll that when another pastor left to work at another church in the ares, Mark yelled that he would “tear (that pastor’s) ministry down brick by brick!!” How Christ-like of you Mark… “Seattle is one of the most unchurched cities in the U.S. Now go and make disciples, but not within 20 miles of me!!!

    Sales people stealing their former customers is one of the typical non-competes that are upheld. Usually they are for a reasonable fixed period of time and subject to reasonable geographical limits. So long as no one is poaching clients and running a competitor out of business, employees who leave a company can usually work something out. The non-compete doesn’t stop anyone from competing. It just provides an easier legal remedy for the employer if the former employee does try to damage his former employee. And it provides a real deterrent to a company’s competitors to not poach.

    As you say, there is more to come, I am certain. Heaven preserve us all.

  107. DragonLady wrote:

    As an alcoholic who married another alcoholic, I can say that the last thing Perry Noble needs is to be kept from the consequences of his actions.

    This is a very important point not only for alcoholics, but for abusers as well. “Grace” does not mean going easy on abusers. There has been a lot of discussion here about whether or not abusers can become non-abusers. I think it’s possible, but only after they have to endure the consequences of their actions and be stripped down so bare that they can no longer deny their beliefs, coping mechanisms, and the way they act out. I saw this in action with a friend of mine. It was God’s ‘severe mercies’ that got him out the other end. It was God’s grace for him that he was never let off the hook and never got to take the shortcuts that he wanted to take. I don’t think he could have changed so much without having gone through such a severe process (and the process goes on). The severity of it is what saved him, not some simple pronouncement of forgiveness. I’ll go out on a limb and suggest that most abusers don’t have the courage to work through this process. And I’ve met few believers who have the faith, patience, courage, and tenacity to let God work his severe mercies. Most either 1) want to let them off off the hook or 2) assume that no healing is possible.

  108. Lydia wrote:

    More to come because money alone fuels these monstrosities we call mega churches.

    Indeed it does. It’s as consumer driven as paying your verizon bill or putting unleaded in your tank at the pump. Question is though, what’s the draw?

  109. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    This issue is near and dear to my heart. NC doesn’t have a law like y’all’s, alas, but the state does tend to side with the victims of non-competes.

    Well hopefully if the issue goes up before your state’s highest state appellate court there in NC they will look to other states like CA on this issue.

    For all of the knocks that CA gets for being liberal, the CA Supreme Court justices are
    surprisingly conservative. Our Chief Justice is a woman.
    http://www.courts.ca.gov/supremecourt.htm

  110. LT wrote:

    Middlebrook helps his clients implement ironclad “non-disclosure” and “non-disparage” agreements. These are more dangerous than the “non-compete”. Unreasonable non-competes can be legally set aside and have nothing to do with telling the truth. If an employee violates the non-disclosure and/or non-disparage agreements, these giant organization can and do go after the little people and bury them with legal costs they can’t afford.

    I suspect such a non-disparagement clause exists in the Crossway book contracts as well. That would explain the way that the Gospel Glitterati have worked so hard to rehabilitate C.J. Mahaney and why they hung on to Mark Driscoll and why they were stone-silent about Matt Chandler and The Village. It may explain the reason that ESS was kept under wraps so long, too, and why Mohler issued his weird but carefully crafted statement that he doesn’t agree with ESS but it is not heresy.

    There is gold in those contracts, I’m confident.

  111. Gram3 wrote:

    I suspect such a non-disparagement clause exists in the Crossway book contracts as well.

    That’s a great insight.

  112. Gram3 wrote:

    Crossway book contracts

    Crossway has made a bundle off of the New Calvinist movement and its promotion of the ESV Bible. All the NC who’s-who have their books published there. Merchandising the gospel in this way is not a God thing.

  113. Ken F wrote:

    “Grace” does not mean going easy on abusers.

    It’s clear from the report by NewSpring elders that they had dealt with Noble’s bad behavior for a long time. They finally laid down the law with him, gave him a period of grace to change, and then judgment fell. Grace does not erase consequences, but those who are broken, humble, and repentant can find grace to help them through the consequences.

  114. @ DragonLady:

    Not caught up with the thread but I think al anon is an excellent suggestion, particularly for those who may not be able to afford therapy at this time.

  115. ishy wrote:

    We’ve seen how Noble’s staff went after a critic

    Mark Driscoll used to rip into his critics on blogs under the alias “William Wallace II.” True story. You never know who is lurking behind those blog names. (I’m really Max, by the way).

  116. Law Prof wrote:

    What has happened is that abusive church leaders (such as, allegedly, Perry Noble) have redefined “slander” to mean anything what they want it to be, such as…

    …anything less than 24/7 brown-nosing Praise and Flattery of The Great Apostle/Prophet/Pastor.

  117. Max wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    We’ve seen how Noble’s staff went after a critic
    Mark Driscoll used to rip into his critics on blogs under the alias “William Wallace II.” True story. You never know who is lurking behind those blog names. (I’m really Max, by the way).

    All I know is that every now and again God speaks to us from Scotland. All Scots look alike. God looks like Nick, but it’s probably just my eyes.

    God also gave us his Yorkshire Pudding recipe, which the faithful can make.
    Recipe at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, the Cooking tab.

    (Serve with roast, gravy, roasted vegetables, etc.)

  118. Gram3 wrote:

    It may explain the reason that ESS was kept under wraps so long, too, and why Mohler issued his weird but carefully crafted statement that he doesn’t agree with ESS but it is not heresy.

    Is money always at the root of evil?

  119. Christiane wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    It may explain the reason that ESS was kept under wraps so long, too, and why Mohler issued his weird but carefully crafted statement that he doesn’t agree with ESS but it is not heresy.
    Is money always at the root of evil?

    The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

  120. Velour wrote:

    The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

    A lot of translations have it as ‘the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil.’

    What about the love of power. Do the two always go together? Which is worse?

    I believe that the love of money/the pursuit of gain at all cost IS the system of Satan.

  121. Max wrote:

    Crossway has made a bundle off of the New Calvinist movement and its promotion of the ESV Bible. All the NC who’s-who have their books published there. Merchandising the gospel in this way is not a God thing.

    Are they the ones who bought Miles Stanford’s copyright and then forced the removal of all his critiques of persons’ doctrine? Just curious. Some company did this but I’m not sure who it was.

  122. Christiane wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Ah, yes.
    Then some in the Church have great need to return to their FIRST love, which we can only hope is Our Lord.

    Spot on.

  123. siteseer wrote:

    A lot of translations have it as ‘the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil.’
    What about the love of power. Do the two always go together? Which is worse?

    Thanks for letting me know about that translation. It makes sense. I was too busy eating a nice dinner to investigate further.

  124. From the post: “…the problems that were becoming clearer and clearer to us…” Faceless Church Staffer or FCS

    Both Simon Sinek and David Marquet illustrate that the top has all the power but the bottom has all the know-how, information, and answers. Rather than know-how moving up, the power needs to move down. Jesus did this with his disciples, and at Pentecost in Acts, the Holy Spirit moved into God’s people – this is exactly what happened. Power moving down. Into the bottom. From God to humanity, through the sacrifice of Jesus, the Holy Spirit indwells us – humanity, which since the Fall at the Garden of Eden, is at the bottom.

    “Leadership should mean giving control rather than taking control and creating leaders rather than forging followers.” David Marquet

    http://amzn.to/29GQVVJ – David Marquet
    http://bit.ly/1tT7V2z – Simon Sinek

  125. I’m out here by myself in the Twilight Zone on TWW. Actually, I am in a different time zone, really different. So be it. My timing is off. Oh well, like Malcolm Gladwell writes, there is a place in this universe for Outliers. http://amzn.to/29zIbW5

  126. Max wrote:

    siteseer wrote:

    I’ve seen some people encouraging Noble to start a new church, saying they’d follow him.

    Therein lies the power of a celebrity pastor. Eventually, of course, he will start a new church and they will be waiting in the wings to see how he re-invents himself. It’s part of the aura surrounding icons; the gullible will follow you anywhere.

    Church of Those Drunk with Spirits maybe…..vodka, perhaps?

  127. Completely off topic but this could be a post in and of itself. There’s been dust up in the SBC about how Kevin Ezell is bullying state conventions and associations to get rid of people who don’t agree with him and aren’t doing what he wants with SBC money. He makes threats to withhold SBC money if the local people won’t do what he wants. Of course Pravda (SBC Voices) exists to defend and cover for men like Ezell. Dave Miller called the people making the accusations against Ezell, liars and conspiracy theorists (as usual) Well somehow Will McRaney??? the man who lost his position for challenging Ezell made a comment at Pravda providing a link where’s he’s provided evidence in the way of emails and such also providing names of others who were witnesses to Ezell’s antics. He also offered to correct the record and answer any questions from those at Pravda who were calling him a liar. Dave Miller of course deleted this post and has since closed the thread claiming Pravda would not be a place for conspiracy theories. So Miller calls a man a liar, that man ask Miller to show him exactly where it is he’s lied and Miller deletes the comment and ends the discussion.

    Here’s Miller’s closing the thread because he got challenged comment. Real Christian of him to call a man a liar and then deciding he doesn’t have to actually back up his claims that he knows “THE TRUTH” ™

    http://sbcvoices.com/crosby-luter-hunter-and-others-call-for-unity-among-louisiana-baptists/#comment-327918

    SBC Today has been covering the story if you want more info. It’s Will McRaney at the Maryland Association or Convention. Ezell has forced a lot of people to sign nonDisclosure agreements over the matter.

  128. @ Celia:

    I just noticed in that thread that Miller deleted a whole bunch of posts talking about Ezell where he and the others were calling everyone who dares to say anything against him as liars and conspiracy theorists. McRaney challenged them to look over his evidence and offered to work through Dave Miller and answer any questions. Miller of course couldn’t be act like a Christian and do that so he continued to attack.

  129. siteseer wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.
    A lot of translations have it as ‘the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil.’
    What about the love of power. Do the two always go together? Which is worse?
    I believe that the love of money/the pursuit of gain at all cost IS the system of Satan.

    It’s an interesting quote:

    ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστιν ἡ     φιλαργυρία
    root for    of all      the   evils     is      the love-of-money

    (I’m hoping all of the html worked there…)

  130. @ JYJames:
    This is so very true. Yet, our society has moved toward the top being the “experts” who know best for those who actually do the front line work. Our huge government and related institutions operate like this and it is a Byzantine disaster.

  131. Celia wrote:

    I just noticed in that thread that Miller deleted a whole bunch of posts talking about Ezell where he and the others were calling everyone who dares to say anything against him as liars and conspiracy theorists. McRaney challenged them to look over his evidence and offered to work through Dave Miller and answer any questions. Miller of course couldn’t be act like a Christian and do that so he continued to attack.

    And then he closes comments. Miller is a frightening person because I can only imagine the damage he has done to other Christians in his lifetime.

  132. mot wrote:

    Celia wrote:

    I just noticed in that thread that Miller deleted a whole bunch of posts talking about Ezell where he and the others were calling everyone who dares to say anything against him as liars and conspiracy theorists. McRaney challenged them to look over his evidence and offered to work through Dave Miller and answer any questions. Miller of course couldn’t be act like a Christian and do that so he continued to attack.

    And then he closes comments. Miller is a frightening person because I can only imagine the damage he has done to other Christians in his lifetime.

    well, DAVID MILLER seems to forget that he wrote this:
    http://sbcvoices.com/disturbing-comments-by-kevin-ezell/

  133. @ Christiane:
    That was written before the SBC Elites wined and dined Miller and gave him the orders on how Pravda should be run. It’s interesting though that Miller saw the attitude Ezell had against anyone daring to question him, his utter contempt for those beneath him that is now being evidenced in how Ezell treats State Conventions and Associations. Miller even commented on Ezell’s lack of support for State Conventions. The Calvinists in the SBC don’t like State Conventions because they can’t control them as easily and there’s a lot of money involved. And remember everyone will fall all over themselves to proclaim Ezell is not even a Calvinist. He’s a four-pointer.

  134. @ Celia:

    Miller is a water carrier. The big cheeses don’t take questions, allow comments or even have to interact with the rank and file except to intimidate and insult them at convention. But a blog is a bit different. It is where the real action is so that puts Miller in an uncomfortable position. I take some cues as to what some of the new tactics are from there. Example, on another thread Miller let it be known he no longer identifies as Calvinist. He is now antinomist or something like that. My guess, We are going to hear more about that from other quarters as they are rebranding.

    The last place Will McRainey will be heard or believed is voices/Pravda. I admire him for trying. There are a lot of men in the SBC who talk a big game about being real men who are basically little cowards who follow the big cheese gurus. You get invited to the suite at convention and get to be in their presence. Heady stuff for them. It is how their world works.

  135. @ Lydia:
    I didn’t want to hijack the thread with this but it all does fit in with the theme of the top down authoritarianism taking over the SBC. Ezell is one of the celebrities and he has a history of being condescending and dismissive to those who dare question him. Also the good ol’ boy network where the “annointed” ™ are protected at all costs.

    Yes I noticed Miller declaring he’s not a Calvinist anymore and got the same vibe you did where now no one’s going to identify as Calvinist anymore now that everyone’s on them. That whole thread was the ridiculous UNITY! WE MUST HAVE UNITY COMRADES while going after those people in Louisiana for doing what the Calvinist have been doing for years. When Calvinist were pushing everyone out who wasn’t like them, taking over churches, associations, conventions etc that was acceptable but now that nonCalvinist are doing the same thing it’s just horrible! The difference is the Calvinist did all their deeds in the dark. The nonCalvinist are completely upfront about it.

    I shouldn’t be suprised though that Miller did not act like the righteous man he proclaims himself to be. He calls a man a liar and that man confronts him and wants to make his case and is willing to be told where he’s wrong. Miller just deletes the conversation like it didn’t happen but continues to call the man a liar. Of course Miller takes orders from the higher ups in the party so it’s not really about doing what a Christian should have done in that situation.

  136. @ Celia:

    Ezell is from my neck of the woods. I saw his deceptive deeds in taking over a church with help from Mohler/SBTS people which became a satellite of his church. (Russ Moore became teaching pastor there when Ezell went to NAMB, double dipping) Ezell is a Mohler man through and through. I also know about the deception he used to implement elder led polity. Not a man I would ever trust.

  137. @ Lydia:
    I wonder what happened to Thornton’s post that was going to give you the sads Lydia? I hope people are figuring out if they didn’t already know that you cannot trust anything those people over Pravda say.

  138. @ Celia:
    A big mistake we have all made is assuming something about a person because of a title. Blogging has gone a long way to dispel that notion about pastors or other “Christian” leaders. Most people will never see it at church. Everyone is in their “role” and have their church game face on. Especially the leaders. It takes pro longed interaction to not only words but patterns of behavior. That is why we often hear people say, my pastor is nothing like that. Truth is, most people in the church barely know them unless they are fortunate to have a very transparent one who does not think he is above them.

    There has been a big push in the SBC to elevate pastors and encourage them to separate from their congregations. That is what all the conferences are really all about. They are even promoted as pastors needing encouragement from other pastors. There have been plenty of blog pieces at voices on this very thing and even stating that pastors cannot be friends with congregants. They are always pastor whining over there about how hard they have it And how people should appreciate them more . It is very much an “us versus them” mentality to these SBC pastors. Mohler told young pastors they are Gods appointed messengers to teach the ignorant. So they come into church is thinking everyone is ignorant.

  139. @ Celia:
    Ezell or one of his lackeys feeds Thornton numbers/info they want out there. That must be heady stuff for him. Why anyone would trust the numbers or information after all that has taken place not only at NAMB but IMB, is beyond me. But I guess Thornton believes them and that is what really matters. After all, I am just a blogging woman. :o)

  140. @ Lydia:

    Yep Celia. I saw it. Dave Miller called Will McRaineys first hand personal experience at the hands of Ezell a “conspiracy Theory” and deleted all the comments. The man lost his job, income. Miller has always had a cruel streak.

  141. Lydia wrote:

    Ezell is a Mohler man through and through.

    Ezell was Mohler’s pastor before taking the helm at NAMB. Think about it. With 45,000+ SBC pastors and thousands of other assorted church leaders in the denomination, Ezell was picked from the masses as the best man for the job. Mohler controls the denomination. SBC theo-politics have such a slimy feel.

  142. Celia wrote:

    UNITY! WE MUST HAVE UNITY COMRADES

    Which really means “Don’t leave us you millions of non-Calvinists. We need your tithes and offerings to continue to support the New Calvinist takeover of your denomination.” The NC leaders in SBC nearing retirement also need to be concerned about their annuity program taking a hit if SBC membership plummets because of the NC rebellion. Sooner or later this thing will come to a head; rebellions always do.

  143. Lydia wrote:

    Yep Celia. I saw it. Dave Miller called Will McRaineys first hand personal experience at the hands of Ezell a “conspiracy Theory” and deleted all the comments. The man lost his job, income. Miller has always had a cruel streak.

    I read it, too. Miller, yeah, a real stand up man-o-gawd!
    An this antinomist nonsense ……. same thing, different name ……. or should I say alias?

  144. Celia wrote:

    everyone will fall all over themselves to proclaim Ezell is not even a Calvinist. He’s a four-pointer

    There’s really not such an animal as a 4-point Calvinist … you are a Calvinist or not, regardless of the points you claim.

  145. JYJames wrote:

    “Leadership should mean giving control rather than taking control and creating leaders rather than forging followers.” David Marquet

    This is not in the New Calvinist play book!

  146. Christiane wrote:

    Then some in the Church have great need to return to their FIRST love, which we can only hope is Our Lord.

    Agreed. But there is also a great multitude going to church which need to find the Lord first! In the New Calvinist movement, I hear a lot about folks being Christ-Followers, with little evidence of it.

  147. Celia wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    I wonder what happened to Thornton’s post that was going to give you the sads Lydia? I hope people are figuring out if they didn’t already know that you cannot trust anything those people over Pravda say.

    I was wondering about that just yesterday. Sadly these pastors can lie so easily.

  148. @ Lydia:

    “Dave Miller called Will McRaineys first hand personal experience at the hands of Ezell a “conspiracy Theory” and deleted all the comments. The man lost his job, income. Miller has always had a cruel streak.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    perhaps Will McRainey can have a voice here, by way of a TWW article / post.

  149. Max wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    Then some in the Church have great need to return to their FIRST love, which we can only hope is Our Lord.
    Agreed. But there is also a great multitude going to church which need to find the Lord first! In the New Calvinist movement, I hear a lot about folks being Christ-Followers, with little evidence of it.

    If they are like me, they left or are leaving the SBC to find the Lord.

    I’ve never actually heard a Calvinista talk about being a Christ follower. I hear them say they are followers of the gospel. I now know “gospel” means “Calvinist church” in Calvinista-ese.

  150. Celia wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    I wonder what happened to Thornton’s post that was going to give you the sads Lydia? I hope people are figuring out if they didn’t already know that you cannot trust anything those people over Pravda say.

    Thornton put an article up this morning on how to protect the pastor and the church from evil congregants!

  151. ishy wrote:

    I’ve never actually heard a Calvinista talk about being a Christ follower. I hear them say they are followers of the gospel. I now know “gospel” means “Calvinist church” in Calvinista-ese.

    Yes, in reformed ranks, Calvinism = Gospel. However, if you look at Twitter accounts of YRR pastors, most will say “Christ-Follower” in the intro. “Believer” is not a word tossed around much in New Calvinist ranks.

  152. @ Nancy2:

    It will be the new shtick. You see, Pastors and elders ARE protecting THEIR flock from bad members. They will milk this shtick for all its worth to get the focus off all the defrauding pastor/elders/leaders over the last 10 years. It's called deflecting.

  153. ishy wrote:

    If they are like me, they left or are leaving the SBC to find the Lord.

    I’m reminded of the Bible story of the blind guy who was kicked out of the synagogue after giving testimony that Jesus had healed him. Even his parents wouldn’t stand with him during the grilling he went through by church leaders. After he left church, Jesus went looking for him!

  154. Max wrote:

    Yes, in reformed ranks, Calvinism = Gospel. However, if you look at Twitter accounts of YRR pastors, most will say “Christ-Follower” in the intro. “Believer” is not a word tossed around much in New Calvinist ranks.

    I guess Judas would have said he was a “Christ Follower”, too…

  155. ishy wrote:

    I guess Judas would have said he was a “Christ Follower”, too…

    As the words to a Southern Gospel song say “Jesus chose twelve men … almost all of them were faithful.”

  156. Lydia wrote:

    Especially the leaders. It takes pro longed interaction to not only words but patterns of behavior. That is why we often hear people say, my pastor is nothing like that. Truth is, most people in the church barely know them unless they are fortunate to have a very transparent one who does not think he is above them.

    This is why I dislike the megachurches so much. there is no way leadership can get to know the members and vice versa. Everytime I see this headline, I laugh. In The church I grew up in the only paid positions were pastor, secretary, choir director,organist and janitor.

  157. Max wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    I guess Judas would have said he was a “Christ Follower”, too…

    As the words to a Southern Gospel song say “Jesus chose twelve men … almost all of them were faithful.”

    Yesterday I was on the phone to my writing partner (the burned-out preacher). He told me something from his experience:

    “If the church’s founder or pastor awards himself the title of “Apostle” or “Prophet” — RUN!”

  158. nmgirl wrote:

    This is why I dislike the megachurches so much. there is no way leadership can get to know the members and vice versa. Everytime I see this headline, I laugh. In The church I grew up in the only paid positions were pastor, secretary, choir director,organist and janitor.

    I knew a number of guys studying to be pastors in college and seminary who definitely viewed pastors as special and set apart. They had no interest in going into ministry to minister to individual people. Many had this idea that they would study in their office 40 hours a week, preach the sermon, and they’d have a staff to shield them from everyone else.

  159. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “If the church’s founder or pastor awards himself the title of “Apostle” or “Prophet” — RUN!”

    The Apostolic thing is very scary. I think Catholics and Orthodox might have a case for apostolic leaders, if I believed in apostolic succession at all. I think any Protestant who claims apostolic succession is just a charlatan.

  160. ishy wrote:

    I guess Judas would have said he was a “Christ Follower”, too…

    “Christian” or “Christ-Follower”…

    These semantics remind me of a knock-down-drag-out in Furry Fandom several years ago. There was a very vocal group that wanted to distance themselves from the crazies and their kinks by calling themselves “Anthro” instead of “Furry”. And were very loud on the fannish Internet about it. However, there was no way to prevent the crazies from calling themselves “Anthro”, too. So that becomes TWO words that mean crazy sicko. And a third, and a fourth, and a fifth, like the George Carlin routine about how Shell Shock became Combat Fatigue became Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or how Idiot became Retarded became Special.

    There is no way to distinguish yourselves from the crazies who proclaim to all media that “We’re One of YOU!”

  161. Lydia wrote:

    @ Nancy2:

    It will be the new shtick. You see, Pastors and elders ARE protecting THEIR flock from bad members.

    Fuehrer Knows Best…

  162. Celia wrote:

    UNITY! WE MUST HAVE UNITY COMRADES

    In the Seventies End Times Christploitation movie Thief in the Night, wasn’t UNITY (or something like it) the name of the Antichrist’s Enforcers?

  163. Lydia wrote:

    You get invited to the suite at convention and get to be in their presence. Heady stuff for them. It is how their world works.

    Harley Quinns wetting themselves when admitted to the actual presence of their Jokers.

    Proof you’re REALLY one of The Inner Ring.

  164. Ron Oommen wrote:

    Church of Those Drunk with Spirits maybe…..vodka, perhaps?

    “Piram of Jarmuth, drunk with strange wine,
    Who dreamed he had created all the stars that shine…”
    — G.K.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”

  165. @ ishy:
    40 hours? The average mega staff pastor was actually working about 20 hours per week and that included whatever adult class they taught.

    Smaller churches vary

  166. Lydia wrote:

    @ ishy:
    40 hours? The average mega staff pastor was actually working about 20 hours per week and that included whatever adult class they taught.
    Smaller churches vary

    These were pre-pastors. I guess their imaginary work ethic was better than the reality.

  167. ishy wrote:

    I think any Protestant who claims apostolic succession is just a charlatan.

    They aren’t claiming apostolic succession – they’re claiming apostolic AUTHORITY.

    But, they are still charlatans. 🙂

  168. Lydia wrote:

    Yep Celia. I saw it. Dave Miller called Will McRaineys first hand personal experience at the hands of Ezell a “conspiracy Theory” and deleted all the comments. The man lost his job, income. Miller has always had a cruel streak.

    “Unlimited power in the hands of limited people always leads to cruelty.”
    — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn —

  169. Nancy2 wrote:

    Thornton put an article up this morning on how to protect the pastor and the church from evil congregants!

    Well, looks like we’re seeing the trend toward the next! big! thing!

  170. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.
    A lot of translations have it as ‘the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil.’
    What about the love of power. Do the two always go together? Which is worse?
    I believe that the love of money/the pursuit of gain at all cost IS the system of Satan.
    It’s an interesting quote:
    ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστιν ἡ     φιλαργυρία
    root for    of all      the   evils     is      the love-of-money
    (I’m hoping all of the html worked there…)

    I think this is one of those poetry truths instead of math truths because I think the love of power over others is just as bad.

  171. Nancy2 wrote:

    Thornton put an article up this morning on how to protect the pastor and the church from evil congregants!

    What is an evil congregant?

  172. Nancy2 wrote:

    Thornton put an article up this morning on how to protect the pastor and the church from evil congregants!

    Like the congregants claiming to having been abused by someone in the church.

  173. Max wrote:

    After he left church, Jesus went looking for him!

    Let this be so today. May Jesus gather His flock away from the false shepherds, as prophesied in Ezekiel.

  174. Max wrote:

    However, if you look at Twitter accounts of YRR pastors, most will say “Christ-Follower” in the intro.

    Well, isn’t that going against the YRR calvinista grain?

    Christ-FOLLOWER?

    That makes it sound as if they are *choosing* to follow Christ, and therefore taking away from God’s sovereignty as if they had any choice about it!

    Plus, it’s easy to point out their teachings, behaviors, and abuses that tend to discredit their claim of being a ‘Christ-follower’.

    I suggest they go for ‘Christ-led’ –

    That way there is no question of the possible taint of Arminianism ‘choices’ in their Calvinista doctrine & practice.

    And then they can always blame any problems on Christ – if there aren’t any women nearby to point toward.

  175. nmgirl wrote:

    In The church I grew up in the only paid positions were pastor, secretary, choir director,organist and janitor.

    One of each?

  176. ishy wrote:

    Many had this idea that they would study in their office 40 hours a week, preach the sermon, and they’d have a staff to shield them from everyone else.

    Sounds like Piper at Bethlehem Baptist with his third floor study at his home, outfitted with a doorbell up there to ring for tea from his wife Noël, in the service of his majesty.

  177. siteseer wrote:

    What about the love of power. Do the two always go together? Which is worse?

    I do think they go hand-in-hand.

    The powerful have more money than the peons,

    The rich have greater power than the peons.

    “A rich man’s wealth is his fortified city; in his imagination it is like a high wall.”

  178. Muff Potter wrote:

    “Unlimited power in the hands of limited people always leads to cruelty.”
    — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn —

    Unlimited Power plus Utter Righteousness is also a really bad combination.

  179. JYJames wrote:

    Sounds like Piper at Bethlehem Baptist with his third floor study at his home, outfitted with a doorbell up there to ring for tea from his wife Noël, in the service of his majesty.

    I assume Noel was not a Muscular Woman(TM).

    (Though considering what I’ve heard about His Predestined Majesty’s physique, if she cannot be physically bigger or stronger than him, I wonder how she was ever able to climb two flights of stairs to His study with His tea weighing down her hands/arms…)

  180. @ BL:
    And the third for a perfect trifecta is charisma, where it all starts.
    1. Attract (charisma)
    2. Control (power)
    3. Exploit (money)

    And there appears an institution of some sort.

  181. JYJames wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Thornton put an article up this morning on how to protect the pastor and the church from evil congregants!

    What is an evil congregant?

    Be patient. They will tell us.

    (Wink)

  182. JYJames wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    Well, perhaps someone was multi-tasking.

    I was thinking of the cornucopia of staff pastors and music directors and such at megas. The caste system of titles becomes amusing. Assistant VP of worship music to Youth. That sort of thing….

  183. @ Lydia:
    Right. And I was thinking of the small church model as almost like a one-room schoolhouse. Staff of one. Teacher puts the log on the fire, even. Back in the day.

  184. @ JYJames:
    It’s quite a contrast. Did kids learn? Yes. Was the small church a place of evangelism, discipleship, and fellowship? By the grace of God, yes. There were even itinerant preachers that had multiple sites as they traveled on the weekends. So staff of less than one per church. (My friend’s father was such and he was also a farmer during the week. It was a good life, he said. No complaints. Blessed and ever grateful.)

  185. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (Though considering what I’ve heard about His Predestined Majesty’s physique, if she cannot be physically bigger or stronger than him, I wonder how she was ever able to climb two flights of stairs to His study with His tea weighing down her hands/arms…)

    Someone said recently that pretty much everyone is bigger than John Piper, which may explain some of his focus on this, & on people being submissive, he doesn’t stand a chance of intimidating them.

  186. @ JYJames:
    And I can even remember when the pastor was an employee! With equal voting rights when the member led committees would bring stuff to a vote like budgets and hiring, etc.

    Now it is all done for you. Just show up and pay.

  187. Beakerj wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (Though considering what I’ve heard about His Predestined Majesty’s physique, if she cannot be physically bigger or stronger than him, I wonder how she was ever able to climb two flights of stairs to His study with His tea weighing down her hands/arms…)

    Someone said recently that pretty much everyone is bigger than John Piper, which may explain some of his focus on this, & on people being submissive, he doesn’t stand a chance of intimidating them.

    Tiny man. If the building were on fire, Julie Ann or I, the tall gals, would have to carry him out. Not visa versa.

    I do think some of the most rabid subjugators have a stature problem like Piper, Ware, Doug Phillips, etc.

  188. JYJames wrote:

    What is an evil congregant?

    “The winsome lady moved to town,…”

    The more notable evil congregants evidently start out with the hands-down, number-1, preferred characteristic – WINSOME.

    And of course – the lead character in their Proverb of the Evil Congregants is…

    wait for it….

    A WOMAN!

    Who knew?!!

  189. Beakerj wrote:

    Someone said recently that pretty much everyone is bigger than John Piper, which may explain some of his focus on this, & on people being submissive, he doesn’t stand a chance of intimidating them.

    Short Man Syndrome.

  190. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    Velour wrote:
    The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.
    A lot of translations have it as ‘the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil.’
    What about the love of power. Do the two always go together? Which is worse?
    I believe that the love of money/the pursuit of gain at all cost IS the system of Satan.
    It’s an interesting quote:
    ῥίζα γὰρ πάντων τῶν κακῶν ἐστιν ἡ     φιλαργυρία
    root for    of all      the   evils     is      the love-of-money
    (I’m hoping all of the html worked there…)

    Brilliant work, Nick. Thanks.

  191. Lydia wrote:

    JYJames wrote:
    @ Lydia:
    Well, perhaps someone was multi-tasking.
    I was thinking of the cornucopia of staff pastors and music directors and such at megas. The caste system of titles becomes amusing. Assistant VP of worship music to Youth. That sort of thing….

    Not to be out done by the mega church caste system/nepotism, small NeoCalvinist churches are copying this model too. My former NeoCalvinist church’s senior pastor had all of his friends as ‘yes-men’ elders, invited his out-of-state friends to move to CA to have jobs, fired his best friend who moved from TX to be an associate pastor, bought another man from KY (we’ll see how long he lasts).

  192. JYJames wrote:

    (My friend’s father was such and he was also a farmer during the week. It was a good life, he said. No complaints. Blessed and ever grateful.)

    Sounds heavenly …. no loud bands, no stages, no strutting potty-mouthed pastors having melt-downs and tantrums. All the ‘new and exciting’ is highly over-rated.

    “I don’t want something special. I want something beautifully plain.” (Annie Lamott)

  193. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    awards himself the title

    Common practice in failed states, i.e., la République centrafricaine where Bokassa pronounced himself President for Life, and then Emperor Bokassa. The fall-out? Today Christians and Muslims are slaughtering each other with barbarism.

    Or Zimbabwe where TimeLive today posts “the country’s own God, President Robert Mugabe, has pretty much destroyed everything in sight; if not comprehensively then to the verge of collapse.” Mugabe is also president for life. http://bit.ly/29Ick0M

    Where the Strongman reigns… what leads up to this? What are the steps to tyranny, in the church or a soon-to-be failed state?

  194. Patriciamc wrote:

    I’ll see what the voices in my head think.

    Naw, those aren’t voices in your head–that would be crazy! That’s your committee.

  195. ishy wrote:

    The Apostolic thing is very scary. I think Catholics and Orthodox might have a case for apostolic leaders, if I believed in apostolic succession at all. I think any Protestant who claims apostolic succession is just a charlatan.

    I think that the word charlatan is a bit much, since some Lutheran traditions lay claim to apostolic succession as do the Moravians, some within the Anglican Communion and even the Methodists have an argument concerning Wesley’s ordination as preserving apostolic succession. The issue becomes just exactly what constitutes apostolic succession and does it include more than who lays hands on whom, like for instance what the ordaining bishop believes at the time of the ordination and such.

    Anyhow, these people are serious about it, they all think they have good arguments and good evidence, and it is important to them. The RCC has made strong statements to the contrary.

    I personally am not losing any sleep over it, because I think it looks like a gang fight over territory, but for those to whom it matters I would not say they are charlatans.

  196. I see no need for “elders” and would be leery of churches that have them. Why not let the deacons serve the congregation, as the early church did?

  197. Florence in KY wrote:

    I see no need for “elders” and would be leery of churches that have them. Why not let the deacons serve the congregation, as the early church did?

    Whether they be elders or deacons, the trick is trying to find enough qualified folks up for the task in 21st century church. The search for such servants should be no different than in the early church “pick out from among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business” (Acts 6:3). Churches can usually locate enough candidates of “honest report”, but finding those full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom can be a challenge these days – like looking for a needle in a haystack. Unfortunately, the world has got the best of some of our best and they just aren’t Biblically qualified for the office, walking in the flesh and not the Spirit. Real elders and/or deacons are rare and endangered species; most filling those spots got there because of their popularity in the congregation/prominence in the community or were hand-picked by church leaders who know they could control them.

  198. I’m in a bit of a contentious discussion at Tim Fall’s blog. Someone identifying as James Williams is defending CBMW against the grain of the thread. Do any TWWers know who this is? I only ask because the rhetoric is very Mohleresque.

  199. @ Serving Kids In Japan:

    “i think the nerve you touched was “we bad! we bad!”, strutting along.”

    “You mean, like this? ”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    yeah, that’s pretty much it! how’d you dig that one up? the recesses of your mind from ol’ Garfield days? (or maybe those days are now?!)

    i’ve got ’70s Sesame Street in the recesses of my mind. such vivid memories, colors, images, the music & songs, the inner city neighborhood set, Susan, Gordon, Bob, Mr. Hooper, kermit, cookie monster, grover, big bird, oscar, bert & ernie….

  200. @ JYJames:
    Yes. our total membership was less than 400 people. Almost every summer we would get a ministry student who would lead youth activities and let the preacher go on vacation. the pianist never got paid because is was usually someone different every week, including me some times.

  201. BL wrote:

    winsome

    My goodness! I did not catch this and should have. Yes all of the evil congregants are women and never men. Why any woman would attend a church in the SBC where there pastor has this view of them is beyond men.

  202. Churches of my childhood either had volunteer preachers who worked in the oil patch all week, or circuit riders who preached several churches on Sunday and worked in the oil patch all week.

    And they were excellent!

    Piano player, song leader, all excellent and all volunteer. No paid staff.

    I cannot tell you how different that is from hireling church.

  203. Patriciamc wrote:

    I think this is one of those poetry truths instead of math truths because I think the love of power over others is just as bad.

    Well, quite. Paul wrote his oft-misquoted snippet in a short passage in which he happened to be talking about money (and he only said that loving money can lead to any kind of evil). But there’s plenty said in the NT about the love of power.

  204. Christiane wrote:

    I did go over and leave a comment for support

    Much appreciated, both you and FWRez and others who are engaging Mr. Williams. I am trying to deal with his ideas respectfully so as to advance the conversation constructively.

  205. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Shell Shock became Combat Fatigue became Post Traumatic Stress Disorder

    Illegal Alien became Illegal Immigrant became Undocumented Immigrant became Undocumented Worker became Guest Worker became Dreamer.

    And don’t get me started on “Affordable” Care Act!

    Is a “Christ-Follower” a “Believer” … a “Christian?”

    Just a little twist of the tongue and we can make words mean what we want them to mean … in both the world and the church.

  206. @ Velour:
    Carol is a disturbed individual. She went after all sorts of people, including me. She responds like a substance abuser.

  207. Tim wrote:

    Mr. Williams

    Do you think “James Williams” is a real person? (2 first names…)
    Why is he defending the words of Mr. Ware?
    Like Ware can’t speak for himself? Williams is a minion?
    “… the implications of Ware’s statements …” he writes.

    OK, so we don’t want to entangle one discourse with another, but it may be a fair question – is the whole CBMW thing like a mafia, with hit men that take out the opposition? A network with a hierarchy? And layers of protection around the don(s)? And then when a lead pastor gets in trouble, which is the current discussion here, the “protection” is sent out to ward off inquiry?

  208. JYJames wrote:

    is the whole CBMW thing like a mafia, with hit men that take out the opposition? A network with a hierarchy? And layers of protection around the don(s)? And then when a lead pastor gets in trouble, which is the current discussion here, the “protection” is sent out to ward off inquiry?

    I think it’s more likely that there are underlings who are trying to get into the “in” crowd, and doing stuff like this. I’ve known one of them. He literally couldn’t talk about anything related to faith without quoting a TGC’er. It was like he was brainwashed.

  209. JYJames wrote:

    Do you think “James Williams” is a real person?

    Yes, I do. His comments came off as someone challenging my thoughts, not necessarily merely to defend Mr. Ware. He, in fact, briefly criticized CBMW in his own comments. he may align more with Mr. Ware than with me, but I didn’t see it as a surrogacy for Mr. Ware or CBMW.

  210. dee wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Carol is a disturbed individual. She went after all sorts of people, including me. She responds like a substance abuser.

    OK, Dee. Thanks for the heads up. I haven’t responded to her on Twitter. First she blocked me, then she didn’t and has filled up my notifications. I haven’t responded to her any more.

    Like has been pointed out here by some posters, imagine the terrible experiences that New Spring staff had in working with an active substance abuser. Ditto for Perry’s family having to live with him.

  211. Tim wrote:

    JYJames wrote:
    Do you think “James Williams” is a real person?
    Yes, I do. His comments came off as someone challenging my thoughts, not necessarily merely to defend Mr. Ware. He, in fact, briefly criticized CBMW in his own comments. he may align more with Mr. Ware than with me, but I didn’t see it as a surrogacy for Mr. Ware or CBMW.

    I’m having to take a break from reading the exchange over there and posting. I need to have a good cry. The whole thing makes me so angry.

    Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood’s abusive teachings destroyed so many lives at my former NeoCalvinist church whose pastors/elders subscribed to it and demanded it, unbeknownst to naive Christians who joined the church. It created a huge path of destruction in: marriages, families, friendships, witness for the Gospel, depressed wives, depressed single women, depressed daughters.

    Women who didn’t subscribe to it and wanted to leave for saner churches were publicly shamed by the senior pastor “before all” members in the church on Sunday after the church service. Members were told to, essentially, harass dear Christian wives into “repentance” for “sinning” (i.e. not following the teachings of Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood).

    It broke my heart to see my friends, women I loved treated so badly, publicly maligned.

    It broke my heart to see young marriages (like between Stanford University students) that may not survive under the false teachings of CBMW.

    It broke my heart to see daughters cowed and not fulfilling their potential.

    It broke my heart to see arrogant men believe who got more abusive to women and children because “they could”.

  212. Friend wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    I’ll see what the voices in my head think.
    Naw, those aren’t voices in your head–that would be crazy! That’s your committee.

    I love it!

  213. Lydia wrote:

    Said with passionate arm waving:
    The God glorifying beauty of her humble subservience.

    LOL. Piper seems to think that if he says something with emotion that people will check their brain at the door. Maybe he should spend less time getting in touch with his feelings, and more time getting in touch with his brain.

  214. Max wrote:

    Just a little twist of the tongue and we can make words mean what we want them to mean … in both the world and the church.

    Semantics, My Dear Wormwood, Semantics.

  215. Max wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “If the church’s founder or pastor awards himself the title of “Apostle” or “Prophet” — RUN!”

    You mean like “Apostle Mahaney”?

    Or Star Scott of Calvary Temple, who proclaimed his ministry both “Apostolic” AND “Prophetic”.

  216. Max wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “If the church’s founder or pastor awards himself the title of “Apostle” or “Prophet” — RUN!”

    You mean like “Apostle Mahaney”?

    That’s HEAD Apostle Mahaney of the People of Destiny.
    Ego much?

  217. Tim wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    The whole thing makes me so angry.
    It’s horrific what you and your friends went through, Velour. Horrific.

    Thanks, Tim.

  218. @ Celia:
    Could you contact me by email. I have been getting info on this and I would like to talk with someone about this.

  219. Celia wrote:

    @ Celia:
    I just noticed in that thread that Miller deleted a whole bunch of posts talking about Ezell where he and the others were calling everyone who dares to say anything against him as liars and conspiracy theorists. McRaney challenged them to look over his evidence and offered to work through Dave Miller and answer any questions. Miller of course couldn’t be act like a Christian and do that so he continued to attack.

    Take screen shots of posts, if you can.

  220. siteseer wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    i know what it’s like to be sitting at a dining room table with many people all in lively conversation and, like trying to jump onto a fast moving train, not being able to find the right moment to join in.
    (and then when i do take that flying leap, i get the deer in the headlights from everyone, who after a moment of silent stupor simply pick up where they left off & jabber on.)
    Ha- I relate to this! Good to know I’m not the only one.

    me too.

  221. Velour wrote:

    The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

    Indeed it is but I think it’s only symptomatic of a much deeper issue. There’s a hunger in every human heart for more, more than whatchoo’ got and whatcha’ can learn to be content with.
    …Everybody’s got a hungry heart… or so the old Springsteen song goes, and money is just its best facilitator.

  222. @ Tim:

    Trying to be respectful. The inquiry to who the individual is was inappropriate on my part. It was predicated on the assumption that the individual was not using sn alias.

  223. Tim wrote:

    I am trying to deal with his ideas respectfully so as to advance the conversation constructively.

    This is an honorable thing, and never ‘easy’ to do, but there is always within it the possibility that some good may come, and that makes the effort worth it, yes. It takes strength to do what you are doing, and it takes grace. And to remain humble in the process is a sign that you know you are a part of something greater at work in the Church. God bless!

  224. Velour wrote:

    I need to have a good cry.

    Velour, that you lived through this suffering makes you a ‘witness’ to the evil that was done to innocent people. You are in a place of ‘gravitas’ to speak on behalf of those who have suffered, and to warn others of what evil looks like when it is cloaked in ‘righteousness’. I’m sorry you have suffered so much. It is said in Judaism that ‘God counts the tears of women’. I hope it is true; I think it must be true.

  225. BL wrote:

    And of course – the lead character in their Proverb of the Evil Congregants is…

    wait for it….

    A WOMAN!

    Of COURSE! The all-time ‘reason’ women are forever to be suspect; we all know the quote:
    “The infernal serpent; he it was whose guile,
    Stirr’d up with envy and revenge,
    deceived The mother of mankind.”
    (Milton, Paradise Lost)

  226. elastigirl wrote:

    yeah, that’s pretty much it! how’d you dig that one up? the recesses of your mind from ol’ Garfield days? (or maybe those days are now?!)
    i’ve got ’70s Sesame Street in the recesses of my mind. such vivid memories, colors, images, the music & songs, the inner city neighborhood set, Susan, Gordon, Bob, Mr. Hooper, kermit, cookie monster, grover, big bird, oscar, bert & ernie….

    Is there some way to make the emoticon of a face with hearts for eyes? I can do a Japanese-style one:

    (♡v♡)

    Actually, there was no need to do any digging in this man’s mind. I watched stuff like “Garfield” and “Sesame Street” when I was in university. And beyond.

    And then there’s YouTube. It’s like a nostalgia cornucopia to me.

  227. Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I need to have a good cry.
    Velour, that you lived through this suffering makes you a ‘witness’ to the evil that was done to innocent people. You are in a place of ‘gravitas’ to speak on behalf of those who have suffered, and to warn others of what evil looks like when it is cloaked in ‘righteousness’. I’m sorry you have suffered so much. It is said in Judaism that ‘God counts the tears of women’. I hope it is true; I think it must be true.

    Thank you for your kind words.

    The Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood (and anything like it) is a toxin that has been injected into churches and the lives of Christians, primarily in NeoCalinvist churches (including it’s my understand a growing number of Southern Baptist churches).

    The destruction is breathtaking. The blindness of leaders demanding “obedience” from grown women is…breathtaking. And sick.

    There is a huge set of legal problems as well that are created. Women are told to not protect their children from dangerous men and that the husband has “final say” and “authority” over his children. These pastors/elders Dark Ages thinking (based on this CBMW teaching) has now placed this mothers in criminal danger and they aren’t off the legal hook in CA. They can be arrested and prosecuted for child endangerment, face misdemeanor or felony charges, land in jail or state prison, and have Child Protective Services take away their children.

    The pastors/elders are facing charges of criminal conspiracy, since they agreed to commit criminal acts. According to them church members will “obey” their decrees. It doesn’t matter if that decree comes from a gang or from church leaders. It’s a criminal act.

    The pastors/elders say that their Membership Covenant is binding and that members “must obey”. In the United States you can’t contract to commit criminal acts and that’s illegal.

  228. Muff Potter wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.
    Indeed it is but I think it’s only symptomatic of a much deeper issue. There’s a hunger in every human heart for more, more than whatchoo’ got and whatcha’ can learn to be content with.
    …Everybody’s got a hungry heart… or so the old Springsteen song goes, and money is just its best facilitator.

    So true, Muff.

  229. Velour wrote:

    The pastors/elders say that their Membership Covenant is binding and that members “must obey”.

    In my Church, NO ONR has the ‘authority’ to force a person to act against their God-given conscience. I’m not sure what the ‘teaching’ is in neo-Cal domains about a person’s duty to honor their own conscience, but what you have told me doesn’t sound like the neo-Cal folks have any comprehension of the wrong they are doing in ‘taking over’ the role of a person’s guidance of conscience by the Holy Spirit.

    How did it come to this with them? Oh my goodness.

  230. ishy wrote:

    I think it’s more likely that there are underlings who are trying to get into the “in” crowd, and doing stuff like this. I’ve known one of them. He literally couldn’t talk about anything related to faith without quoting a TGC’er. It was like he was brainwashed.

    doubleplusduckspeak INGSOC.

  231. Velour wrote:

    It broke my heart to see arrogant men believe who got more abusive to women and children because “they could”.

    Not just “because they could”.
    Because They Had GAWD On Their Side commanding them to as Cosmic justification.
    Divine Right and all that.

  232. @ Christiane:

    I am under the impression that the RCC talks about ‘informed’ conscience, not just any idea that may pop into somebody’s head. Which seems to make the Catholic idea of conscience something rather like yes, but. The Baptist idea of conscience that I grew up with is similar, that the conscience may mislead someone and is not to be given the last word when it clearly differs from scripture about some issue. This would be the baptist idea of yes, but.

    So, if either a Catholic or a Baptist pregnant woman would come along and say that her conscience tells her to about the fetus because she just does not feel like they are quite ready for another child just yet, I doubt that either group would officially say that she should follow her conscience in that matter.

    I do think that the Baptists rarely talk about conscience and mostly talk about scripture, however. I do not know what the Catholic method of discernment is in determining whether some one’s conscience is ‘informed’ or not.

  233. Hi OKRAPOD,
    I remember writing a comment on Wade Burleson’s blog some years ago, regarding informed moral conscience. I will post that comment here for you to look at:

    “I’ve given some thought to this post, and it occurred to me that it has always been asked of the people of my faith to consider three things before making important decisions based on the realities and the issues we faced in our live.

    Yes, so as to be informed,
    the ‘Church’s teachings’ were always to be carefully considered and pondered in our hearts.

    And we were to pray most sincerely and earnestly for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

    But there was another consideration t . . . our consciences needed to be consulted.

    It is taught to us, this:

    “Deep within his conscience,
    man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey.
    Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . .
    For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . .
    His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary.
    There he is alone
    with God Whose Voice echoes in his depths.”

    ‘Authority’ may teach, it may offer guidance, and give direction, but for a Christian person, no ‘authority’ can ever take the place of his or her own moral conscience.

    I wondered what was troubling me about this discussion . . . and it looks like perhaps for many who are not of my faith, there is little or no recognition of the supreme importance of informed ‘conscience’ as moral guide, within the whole tradition of mainstream Christianity.

    Samuel Clemens, who wrote under the name of ‘Mark Twain’ once cautioned people, this:
    “re-examine all you have been told in school or church or in any book, and dismiss whatever insults your own soul”

    Perhaps he had a insight that might prove useful in our own time,
    when we are pulled this-way and that by so many who would decide for us too many things,
    and if we let them decide for us, our own hearts must ‘look away’.

    We were not made for that.
    Our God has made us better than that.”

  234. Christiane wrote:

    Samuel Clemens, who wrote under the name of ‘Mark Twain’ once cautioned people, this:
    “re-examine all you have been told in school or church or in any book, and dismiss whatever insults your own soul”

    Katharine Bushnell said pretty much the same.

  235. Christiane wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    The pastors/elders say that their Membership Covenant is binding and that members “must obey”.
    In my Church, NO ONR has the ‘authority’ to force a person to act against their God-given conscience. I’m not sure what the ‘teaching’ is in neo-Cal domains about a person’s duty to honor their own conscience, but what you have told me doesn’t sound like the neo-Cal folks have any comprehension of the wrong they are doing in ‘taking over’ the role of a person’s guidance of conscience by the Holy Spirit.
    How did it come to this with them? Oh my goodness.

    You’re correct about that.

    But according to my ex-pastors/elders it also includes criminal acts (not protecting children, not reporting, etc.). They have legal duties as do others. A parent’s failure to protect is a criminal act (my state is CA).

    Additionally in the United States you can’t “contract” for criminal acts, including via a church Membership Covenant.

  236. Tim wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    The pastors/elders say that their Membership Covenant is binding and that members “must obey”.
    Yeah, I’m not a fan of these types of covenant memberships: The Problem with Church Membership Covenants – bad doctrine hurts God’s people.

    Thanks, Tim, for the link.

  237. Christiane wrote:

    Samuel Clemens, who wrote under the name of ‘Mark Twain’ once cautioned people, this:
    “re-examine all you have been told in school or church or in any book, and dismiss whatever insults your own soul”

    Was it Walt Whitman? A good sentiment, either way.

  238. @ Kemi:
    I have always gone to liturgical churches. Of course some of the service is “rote” but also we have 4 scripture readings each week (Psalm, OT lesson, NT lesson and Gospel. We rotate thru the Bible on a 3 yr cycle. The sermon focuses on one of more of the readings & often how they intertwine.

    I get a lot of crap from some Christians who say my church isn’t spirit filled or we’re doing vain repetitions or whatever. However, I don’t get how we are not “Bible based” because 90% of the svc is straight from the Bible.

    Our pastor cannot pick and choose portions of the Bible to “promote”. He and the congregation are confronted by all of God’s word.

  239. Priscilla

    I have been attending a liturgically based church for over a year now and I love it. Let me know if anyone here give you crap for doing so,