Mary Kassian – Is She Really a ‘True’ Woman?

“Mary Kassian is one of the most outstanding scholars in the entire Christian world [in] defending, defining and teaching biblical womanhood…We are looking forward to her joining us [as ‘Distinguished Professor of Women’s Studies’]…It is another sign of God’s favor and blessings to us."

Al Mohler (in 2005)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/marykassianMary Kassian – LinkedIn (Screen Shot)

In some ways, it seems like yesterday because I remember it so vividly.  I was leading Moms in Touch (now Moms in Prayer) at the Christian school my daughters attended, and every Wednesday morning I would go into the teacher workroom to make copies of our prayer sheet to hand out to our praying moms. I led this ministry for ten years (until my younger daughter graduated from high school), and it was such a blessing.  There were so many answered prayers! 

As I entered the workroom on this particular morning, I noticed a small stack of brochures promoting a ladies' retreat at one of our local churches.  I was familiar with this women's event (held annually) because I had participated a couple of times years before and enjoyed it.  I opened the brochure and saw the name of the speaker.  It was Mary Kassian

Dee and I launched our blog on March 19, 2009, and I remember that it was just days later when I saw the brochure.  By then I was well aware that Mary Kassian was part of the Neo-Cal crowd and that I could not in good conscience attend.  Mary arrived in Raleigh the following month to address conference attendees.  The women's event took place a year and a half after the court settlement (discussed in the previous post), and I wonder if Mary confided to the ladies in attendance that she was off the hook until 2022 for meal preparation (among other housekeeping duties).  See screen shot below.

http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/0/0/alberta/court-of-queen-s-bench/2008/02/06/kassian-v-roy-2008-abqb-80.shtml

How in the world could someone incapable of cooking meals and doing housework travel from Alberta, Canada to Raleigh, North Carolina and speak at a women's retreat?  Of course, this wasn't an isolated event.  Mary Kassian had been speaking at other conferences following the settlement of the lawsuit stemming from a 2002 car accident. 

On October 10, 2008, Mary Kassian spoke at the very first True Woman event held by Revive Our Hearts, a ministry founded by Nancy Leigh DeMoss.  It took place in Illinois – not exactly a hop, skip and a jump from Mary's Canadian abode.  Here is a 9-minute clip of Mary Kassian's talk.  My sincere question for our readers is — does this look like someone who is incapable of cooking and performing household chores?  Perhaps Mary is on heavy doses of pain killers???  Who knows?  Keep in mind that the Kassian v. Roy court case was finally heard 11 months and 11 days prior to her presentation below.

When a commenter 'Jerome' alerted us about these court documents earlier this week, I paid special attention to the description of the accident.  Let's take a look at those details again (as provided in the legal document).

http://caselaw.canada.globe24h.com/0/0/alberta/court-of-queen-s-bench/2008/02/06/kassian-v-roy-2008-abqb-80.shtml

The details that caught my attention were:  (1) the air bags did not deploy (2) Mary declined any assistance from the ambulance workers (3) the other occupants of the car in which she was riding only had minor claims which were settled outside of court.

As I read about this minor traffic accident and how it appeared that Mary Kassian went for all she could get from her 'injuries' (over a period of five years), I began to reflect back to a horrific car accident I was involved in almost 44 years ago that could have cost me my life.

When I was a month away from turning thirteen, a friend invited me to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents, which they regularly did on weekends.  I begged my mom and dad to let me go, but they were extremely reluctant.  I was blessed with protective parents, and this would have been my first time away from home without them.   They finally gave in…

That Friday afternoon in July was sunny and beautiful!  We drove from just outside of Raleigh toward the beaches of South Carolina.  Back then there were no interstate highways in the eastern part of North Carolina, so we traveled on two-lane roads.  I can still remember passing corn field after corn field as we made our way toward the ocean.  My friend's mom was so kind to me, and I can still remember some of the things she said along the way.  She talked about her friend who shared my first name, she explained how Benson has a Mule Day every year, and she explained how Spivey's Corner was known as the the Hollerin' Capital of the World (as we passed through it).

Then on a straight stretch of road just outside of Whiteville, North Carolina, our GMC pick-up was struck HEAD ON by a drunk driver.  Both vehicles were traveling around 60 mph. It was 7:30 at night and still daylight.  The woman who hit us had just stopped at a liquor store to buy more booze, and the store clerk refused to sell her anything because he could tell she was intoxicated.  She managed to leave and he quickly phoned the police, who immediately began searching for her.  When the officer closed in on her, he witnessed the horrific crash. 

My friend’s parents were thrown through the windshield and killed instantly, and my friend and I were pinned inside the truck.  None of us were wearing seat belts (shoulder belts were not standard equipment at that time).  It took about two and a half hours for the rescue workers to extricate us from the mangled wreckage with the 'Jaws of Life', which had only recently been invented. Fortunately, I did not see the vehicle approaching and was unconscious the entire time we were pinned in. 

My friend’s injuries were so severe that she was hospitalized for months and months.  I suffered a serious skull fracture, broken bones in my left foot, a broken pinky (at the joint), deep gashes in my forehead, both above and between my eyes, and scalded patches of skin caused by the exploding radiator, but my injuries were NOTHING compared to my friend's. 

I regained consciousness inside the ambulance at 10:10 p.m.  They first took us to a local hospital, but the emergency room workers realized our injuries were far too severe for them to handle.  Then they rushed us to New Hanover Hospital in Wilmington.  I remember laying in the emergency room and being fully conscious.  I was able to provide the doctors with all the contact information they needed.  It was the worse night of my parents' lives.  As soon as they got off the phone with the hospital workers, they drove over three hours, arriving in Wilmington in the middle of the night. 

As I lay in the emergency room, I felt something wet just above both of my eyes.  I touched those places and looked at my fingers.  They were red.  My skin was split wide open, and I will never forget what those deep cuts felt like.  Incredibly, I had a sense of calm throughout that horrific ordeal.  The neurosurgeon operated immediately to lift the right front part of my skull off my brain.  I still have an indentation in my skull, which feels really creepy!  By the grace of God, I was hospitalized for just six days. 

it took the rest of the summer (and beyond) for me to recuperate.  I had to wear a cast on my foot for five weeks, which came off on my birthday.  Best present ever!  The cast on my right hand stayed on for three weeks, but the hardest parts of the recovery were living with the front half of my head shaved during surgery and having the 50+ stitches removed from above my eyes, between my eyes, and in the middle of my forehead extending several inches above my hair line (where the surgical incision was).  These were ugly black stitches that had to be cut with scissors, then pulled out. 

As a thirteen year old, I was extremely self-conscious about my appearance, so I wore a wig to school for the first half of the year until my hair grew out a few inches.  

My friend, who lost both of her parents in an instant, had a long, difficult road to recovery.  A couple from her church moved into her home and took care of her for the rest of her growing up years.  We had a close friendship through high school but went our separate ways in college.

After almost forty-four years, it’s still difficult for me to process the thought that one minute I was having a wonderful conversation with my friend and her parents and in a split second her mom and dad were gone!  Can you imagine growing up through your teen years, as my friend did, without your parents? 

In recent years, I have come to realize that had the car hit us closer to the driver's side (rather than the passenger side), my friend's parents would have been pinned in, and I would have been the one thrown through the windshield since none of us were wearing seat belts.  

Throughout high school and college, I was self-conscious about my facial scars, having had three plastic surgery operations.  Even though my facial scars are still somewhat visible (I have other scars on my legs and my feet from the accident), they are a constant reminder of God’s faithfulness in sparing my life on that fateful night

Did my parents sue?  No.  I did receive a settlement of around $3,700 which was not released to me until I turned 21.

Getting back to Mary Kassian, I have NO EMPATHY FOR HER WHATSOEVER!!!  What she did in the aftermath of her accident absolutely disgusts me!  According to the judge, she was not a particularly credible witness and I firmly believe she bilked the insurance company (I presume).  In the aftermath, it's plain to see that Mary Kassian's injuries haven't prevented her from jetting around to speak at conferences.  That takes a lot more effort (in my opinion) than cooking and doing household chores.

Mary Kassian will once again be speaking at the upcoming True Woman event in September.  And I have no doubt she'll be using her skills of persuasion to get attendees to sign the True Woman Manifesto.   Is Mary really a TRUE woman?   You be the judge…

She was truthful when she explained her involvement with the Danvers Statement in a post entitled Complementarianism for Dummies.  (see screen shot below)

http://girlsgonewise.com/complementarianism-for-dummies/

Yes, Mary Kassian has been involved with 'complementarianism' from the very beginning.  I'm still puzzled why this 27 year old wife and mother of two youngsters was involved in the drawing up of the Danvers Statement.  Oh look, next year will be the 30th anniversary of that clandestine meeting in Danvers, Massachusetts to hammer out the final document.  More on that next year!

We leave you with another video featuring Mary Kassian that was uploaded to YouTube on December 10, 2009.  Remember, Mary is being awarded special damages to the tune of $5,278 per year for meal preparation until the year 2022 since she has some sort of physical impairment… 

Comments

Mary Kassian – Is She Really a ‘True’ Woman? — 633 Comments

  1. And again, I wonder, “What was that judge thinking?!” Since the judge stated MK was not particularly credible, knew she faked photos of participating in extreme activities to (presumably) make her persona more appealing to Christian women book buying customers, and numerous other things inconsistent with true debilitating injuries, the judge should not have awarded so much–or just laughed and thrown out the case. An award for meal prep really gets my goat. What nonsense!

    Thanks for refreshing our memories on what a true life-altering vehicle accident is. I’m sorry for your injuries and your friend’s, and much more so for the irreplaceable loss of her parents.

    I don’t know how people like this sleep at night. I guess they are used to lying first on their left side, then lying on their right side. (Little joke there. An old one. Haha. Get it? Oh, I know the whole sorry situation is not funny at all.)

  2. Wow. Just wow. The contrast is… Words fail me.

    I just have to shake my head when I think of all those women going to hear her speak, to be exhorted and encouraged and “informed,” and all by someone who sounds so much like a fraud. A resounding gong or clanging cymbal. A whitewashed tomb, full of old bones.

  3. In the video at the end of the post, MK states that “today’s women want to know what makes relationships work”.

    I’ll tell her what: according to surveys, egalitarian relationships work much better than those that are not egalitarian, with people in egalitarian marriages reporting higher levels of happiness.

    So why would MK give those women a misleading answer to their question?

  4. “Mary Kassian is one of the most outstanding scholars in the entire Christian world [in] defending, defining and teaching biblical womanhood…”–Al Mohler
    +++++++++++++++++

    Scholar?? She’s got some units…

    i guess christian culture either sets the bar extremely low, ‘scholarship’ in the field of ‘biblical womanhood is in short supply & this is the best they could come up with, or christian culture has no problem with its self-appointed leaders being misleading and deceptive.

    actually, i suspect it’s all 3.

    i think christian culture is more interested in generating revenue through selling feelings and ideas than it is in honesty and truth.

    all of this (the lying, the deception, the cheating, the very greedy lawsuit, the joke of ‘christian’ higher education, the manipulation, the slimy & shoddy character)… i’m just at a new low in my lack of respect for this silly, embarrassing, shameful religion of mine.

    (God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit -not necessarily in that order- are still kool, though)

  5. @ elastigirl:

    “i think christian culture is more interested in generating revenue through selling feelings and ideas than it is in honesty and truth.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    and its members are more interested in paying money for feelings and ideas than they are in honesty and truth.

    Mary Kassian’s 2nd video clip — she said absolutely nothing of substance, but simply appealed to feelings. Persuasively so.

    what about the first video clip? I have too much undesire to watch it. anything of substance? anything to support her ideas beyond good presentation?

  6. I have a strong disliking of women who forge careers out the kind of stuff Mary Kassian has busy-bodied herself with doing, especially when her own life is no reflection of the values taught in the Bible. All she’s done is followed the example set by others like Nancy Leigh DeMoss, who has cashed in on the whole “Women’s Ministry” movement – a movement that’s based the complementarian lie that women and men occupy different spheres, and must be instructed in separate ways.

    I’d say Mary Kassian represents the old version of the female Complementarian, the one that writes women’s books and speaks at women’s conferences. Aimee Byrd is the new, repackaged version of Complementarianism, the one that has distanced itself from Danver’s and the ESS, while promoting the same essential message from a platform she jovially shares with a couple of seemingly progressive guys.

    Kassian is Complementarianism 1.0
    Byrd is Complementarianism 2.0

    Same problem, different day. It’s akin to taking the polygamy out of Mormonism to make it more acceptable.

  7. elastigirl wrote:

    Mary Kassian’s 2nd video clip — she said absolutely nothing of substance, but simply appealed to feelings. Persuasively so.

    what about the first video clip? I have too much undesire to watch it. anything of substance? anything to support her ideas beyond good presentation?

    I agree. Nothing of substance in the first video I watched, nothing original, and above all – boooooring.

    This is the woman the SBTS wants to teach at their school? What a snooze fest. Hardly doctoral level stuff here.

    The material she presented was so easy, so elementary, that she should have been able to run through it impromptu. But no, she had to present it all verbatim sticking like glue to her notes. Why so scripted? She needs to steal her husband’s lunch money and buy herself a teleprompter! Gawd!!

    But we should give her a C+ for looking like she wanted to speak extemporaneously, appearing as though she could survive unmoored from the podium which contained her speech she read word for word. And we should give her a C+ for looking like she could be a creative, free spirit with messy hair and casual, carefree clothing. Problem is, she put as much detailed effort into the placement of each hair strand and every item of clothing as she did each word of her message, and both her and her speech came across as forced, facetious and fake.

    She’s high-schoolish and not in the least doctoral. I’m guessing she (claims to have) invented the long word of ‘complementarianism’ in the hopes that people will think she’s an academic or an intellectual!

    But yes, hire her Al Mohler! Honor and esteem her! Better yet, invite her to speak at the next T4G conference! And when you introduce her, make light of the criticism she’s receiving on the internet and stress, instead, her interest in hockey!

  8. Paula Rice wrote:

    I have a strong disliking of women who forge careers out the kind of stuff Mary Kassian has busy-bodied herself with doing, especially when her own life is no reflection of the values taught in the Bible. All she’s done is followed the example set by others like Nancy Leigh DeMoss, who has cashed in on the whole “Women’s Ministry” movement – a movement that’s based the complementarian lie that women and men occupy different spheres, and must be instructed in separate ways.

    Your comment reminded me of the book written by Nancy Leigh DeMoss – Lies Women Believe, and the Truth That Sets Them Free

    Perhaps someone could write a book by a similar title – Lies "True Women' Believe, and the Truth that Sets Them Free…

  9. This is a small detail, but the one that struck me as untrue is her assertion that she turned to warn her children about the impending collision. She might well have been turned in her seat, already chatting to them about whatever when the accident happened, but given how fast accidents happen, it’s just not believable that she would have time to turn in her seat to warn the kids.

    I am sorry about your accident, and your friend’s deep loss.

  10. @ Gus:

    A decade (or so) after my husband and I were married, I started hearing the term 'complementarian' – equal in worth, but different in roles. We had joined a Southern Baptist church not long before the BF&M 2000 was approved by the SBC, and the church wholeheartedly affirmed it. After all, this was the congregation to which Paige and Dorothy Patterson belonged. We were members of the church when Patterson was elected SBC president.

    Although the Pattersons rarely attended their local church (he had speaking engagements far and wide), Paige Patterson did preach on Mother's Day (I believe it was in 2001). At the conclusion of the service, I walked up to him and shook his hand. My husband never cared for him and liked to call attention to his cowboy boots which made him appear taller. Then he would say something about what he called the 'Napoleanic Syndrome'.

    During this stage of our marriage, I was trying to act 'complementarian', and my husband would have none of it. He said I was his equal, and that's how we have conducted our marriage. We strived to out-serve each other, and that's how it's been for most of our married life. I highly recommend it!

    It wasn't long before we moved our church membership to another Southern Baptist church, which didn't seem quite as obsessed with 'complementarianism', although it was practiced. That church experience proved far worse, but that's a story for another time…

  11. I find myself saddened for Mary K; it is probable, I think, that what she speaks about she truly wants to be–but is not. the question I would ask if I were in the audience is ‘Why are you here, instead of at home taking care of home and family?’.

    It is interesting this industry that has arisen where celebrities go on a circuit (well-paid, no doubt) telling others to sacrifice their aspirations and dreams while this chosen few get to live their’s out for fame and fortune. I am saddened that we, in the audience, cannot identify the latent hypocracy, though well-meaning, no doubt, in this industry.

    It would be more honest of the True Women movement to invite male speakers in to just tell them what to do (think Piper, Mohler, Driscoll) than to parade these women celebrities as some kind of strange role models (do what I say, do not pay attention to the fact that I am not presently doing what I am exhorting you to do).

    A caveat: I met my wife when she worked as a fellow professional in an ancillary medical field. After our son was born, she worked for another year and then made the choice to be a stay-at-home mom, eventually home-schooling him. On more that one occasion I had women that I worked with challenge me regarding her status, as though I mandated her behavior. I would laugh when they would do so, telling them that they did not know my wife very well. I gladly supported her choice, but it was her choice–as we near retirement, I realize daily how much we miss her income and the retirement she would have had if she had continued in her profession. My wife being able to walk out her dreams and choices before Jesus–priceless.

  12. At least she isn’t dressed like those paragons of femininity, the “Fox girls.” On the videos, I don’t really think I heard much from the Bible, and a lot of cultural talk points that relied so much on stereotypes, such as that “feminist” agenda.

  13. Deb wrote:

    Paula Rice wrote:
    I have a strong disliking of women who forge careers out the kind of stuff Mary Kassian has busy-bodied herself with doing, especially when her own life is no reflection of the values taught in the Bible. All she’s done is followed the example set by others like Nancy Leigh DeMoss, who has cashed in on the whole “Women’s Ministry” movement – a movement that’s based the complementarian lie that women and men occupy different spheres, and must be instructed in separate ways.
    Your comment reminded me of the book written by Nancy Leigh DeMoss – Lies Women Believe, and the Truth That Sets Them Free
    Perhaps someone could write a book by a similar title – Lies “True Women’ Believe, and the Truth that Sets Them Free…

    The ladies’ group I am part of studied the DeMoss book. One of the women commented that the more she read it, the more impatient she got with DeMoss.

  14. Deb wrote:

    by a similar title – Lies “True Women’ Believe, and the Truth that Sets Them Free…

    How about Lies “True Women” Helped Invent, and the Truth that Protects Us from Them.
    In the accident I was involved in (at age 18), the other driver passed out at the wheel. He was not supposed to be driving because he was undergoing chemo treatments for cancer.
    My injuries were only to my head, but they were severe. (My entire head was shaved, the left side of my face was paralyzed for a while …….) Three neurosurgeons said that they cannot explain how I lived, let alone escaped to function as well as I do. The accident set me back a year in college. On the farm, I was taking care of 3 mules, 1 horse, and a bunch of hogs (ranging from 40 to 70 head of hogs, 2 boars and 10 breed sows …… My dad and my uncle were partners in the hog operation). The horse and 1 of the mules were mine. I was in the process of training my young mule to ride and work when the accident happened. Between the full time jobs, younger children, and the tobacco crops, no one else in the family was able to tend to the hogs on a daily basis – plus, no one else inherited my granddaddy’s special knack for handling the animals. So, my family sold all of the hogs, mules, and my horse. (My dad was convinced that I would try to ride my green-broke mule and my high-strung mustang mare and get myself killed while they were at work.)
    The other driver was best buds with the chief of police, so the chief lied for him on the accident report and told witnesses that they were not needed. My family and I could have sued the pants off of the other driver and the police dept. We never even thought about it – we are nothing like Mary Ka$$ian.

    Keep getting these stories out, blog queens! People need to know!

  15. I have what I call a ‘you first’ doctrine to those who make rules and pronouncements. For instance, those who claim that climate change is an immanent threat while jetting all over the world–I will not take them seriously, (though I take the science seriously), until they stop flying. I pretty immediately dismiss what I hear from church leadership when their lifestyle does not reflect their pronouncements.

  16. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    I pretty immediately dismiss what I hear from church leadership when their lifestyle does not reflect their pronouncements.

    Or, when their lifestyle does not reflect Christ’s teachings and actions?

  17. She seems to be well enough to do some renovation. From her tweet in September 2015

    “Mary Kassian
    Mary Kassian‏ @MaryKassian

    @JordieWilliams8 Been doing renos, so be on the lookout for the lady with paint on her jeans. Hope you’re enjoying your trip to Canada!” 22 Sep 2015, 3.13pm

  18. Gus wrote:

    In the video at the end of the post, MK states that “today’s women want to know what makes relationships work”.
    I’ll tell her what: according to surveys, egalitarian relationships work much better than those that are not egalitarian, with people in egalitarian marriages reporting higher levels of happiness.

    Well yeah, but this is the whole issue, isn’t it? The Comp crowd as represented by CBMW doesn’t care about what is best for people. They don’t care about historic trinitarianism, either. I can’t figure out their purpose, since it seems at cross-odds with both the praxis and dogma of historic Christianity. It is theological misanthropy at its finest – using theology as power to try to force ideas and practices on people that are actually evil and destructive.

  19. I am saddened that I signed the True Woman manifesto. One of Nancy DeMoss’s flawed teachings that seemed wrong at the time and later came back to haunt me during my biblical church discipline was: If we truly forgive, that means we never bring up the issue again to (1) ourselves, (2) to others, (3) to the person who wronged us, or (4) TO GOD. This was presented to me again by the Mary Kassian of our Neo-cal 9 Marks church, a woman big on presence, a Masters seminary counseling graduate, and chosen by the elders to represent the complementarian woman model for the rest of us. She also counseled me that it was indeed possible that the elders had sinned against me, but that it was my responsibility to repent and obey them as a sign of submission, and to never mention anything about the incident as a sign of forgiveness. It seems that anything the Neo-cal movement touches begins to stink, including the scriptures.

    Deb, I am heartbroken for what happened to your two families so many years ago. I’m thankful that God has brought you to where you are, and that you and Dee share a unique relationship that seems to transcend friendship. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

  20. Tina wrote:

    The ladies’ group I am part of studied the DeMoss book. One of the women commented that the more she read it, the more impatient she got with DeMoss.

    DeMoss inherited a ton of money from daddykins. She only recently married. I thought for years she was a source of money for some of the guys in the Christian Industrial Complex who deferred to her and promoted her.

  21. Janet Varin wrote:

    She also counseled me that it was indeed possible that the elders had sinned against me, but that it was my responsibility to repent and obey them as a sign of submission, and to never mention anything about the incident as a sign of forgiveness.

    Oh this is so typical. They protect themselves by redefining forgiveness. Hmm. I thought being a believer meant one could be trusted. They demand you shut up andtrust them after doing wrong to people. And what is more bizarre is people tend to follow along with that thinking in a church building and when Christian titles are involved. The last place that sort of thing should happen.

  22. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    It would be more honest of the True Women movement to invite male speakers in to just tell them what to do (think Piper, Mohler, Driscoll) than to parade these women celebrities as some kind of strange role models (do what I say, do not pay attention to the fact that I am not presently doing what I am exhorting you to do).

    Oh, but they do! John Piper has spoken at these True Woman events and Russell Moore is slated to speak at the upcoming one in September, along with other manly men such as the 'Courageous" Stephen Kendrick.  There's gold in them thare adoring audiences, and this crowd has to make the most of it while they can. 😉

  23. I wonder if there is ANY circumstance where Kassian would say you don’t have to obey the church elders.

  24. Lydia wrote:

    Oh this is so typical. They protect themselves by redefining forgiveness. Hmm. I thought being a believer meant one could be trusted. They demand you shut up andtrust them after doing wrong to people. And what is more bizarre is people tend to follow along with that thinking in a church building and when Christian titles are involved. The last place that sort of thing should happen.

    After reading through this post this morning I felt called to draft the five points of New-Calvinism. it’s on the open discussion, for anyone interested in fleshing out the five points.

  25. Deb wrote:

    Perhaps someone could write a book by a similar title – Lies “True Women’ Believe, and the Truth that Sets Them Free…

    Then Kassian could follow up with Lies Real Women Tell.

  26. Cousin of Eutychus, that is a very sound principle. If something is truly 'biblical', those teaching it will live accordingly. Some of these women with the most popular ministries realize this, and will at least provide a veneer of being in submission to a male head, whether a husband, pastor, etc.

  27. @ Nancy2:

    So grateful you survived! In my heart, I forgave the women who hit us. She was 23 years old and had two broken legs as a result of the accident.  She was convicted of two counts of manslaughter and served a somewhat brief prison term – something like five years.  Not long ago I came across her obituary through an internet search.  I hope she made peace with her maker before she died.

  28. Tina wrote:

    The ladies’ group I am part of studied the DeMoss book. One of the women commented that the more she read it, the more impatient she got with DeMoss.

    Oh yes, Nancy Leigh DeMoss, who has spent the majority of her life single, childless, and wealthy. Her father was Arthur S. DeMoss, and her brother is Mark DeMoss, Mark Driscoll's former 'advisor'.

    Nancy finally married last year. No doubt there is a book in the works telling all of us how how we should strive to thrive after taking our vows of matrimony.

  29. If you’ve truly forgiven, you can’t even mention it again to GOD??? What?? Moses complained to God. Jeremiah complained to God. The Psalms are full of p—ssing and moaning to God. If you can’t be completely honest with God, if you can’t tell Him everything including your continuing struggles with forgiveness or whatever, then who CAN you unload on and be totally honest with?

    Nobody can — or should — live up to such insane unbiblical legalism.

    Once, when Saint Teresa of Avila was going through a bad experience — IIRC she fell off her horse, in the rain, or some such thing — she famously said to God: “Lord, if this is how You treat Your friends, it’s no wonder You have so few of them.” She was one tough cookie, and I bet she would have made short work of MK’s legalistic drivel.

  30. @ Janet Varin:

    I can honestly say that this horrific life event made me STRONG! God has definitely used it for good through the years.

    I hope you'll give serious consideration to sharing your story in a guest post. With True Woman '16 coming up in September, our sisters in Christ need to know the truth about that stupid manifesto.  We will be writing about it soon.

  31. I’ve thought over some more regarding Mary Kassian’s attack on Ruth Tucker, who was married to an abusive child rapist (applied some OSINT, think his name is Lyman Rand Tucker). That account is the driver behind the book, Black and White Bible, Black and Blue Wife.

    Not all child rapists are equal. Some haven’t heard the gospel and are utterly depraved. Others have rejected the gospel and are hardened, and it’s hard for even Christians to imagine why God still allows them to live.

    But a third category of child rapist is the deadliest: those who open live as Christians, willfully masquerading and deceiving. These people, their conscience is seared, the wicked one resides in them. They are unaffected by goodness and light, they pass through light and darkness and feel at home in both. They live a deliberate lie, destroying God’s work on earth. People like Joel Wright. I cannot think of a more dreadful eternal existence in hell than “Christian” ministers who rape children.

    Mary Kassian does not understand that “Christian” child rapists are deceptive and powerful. They manipulate, and if you are in their cross-hairs, you over time can no longer think for yourself. Not only are you physically dominated and abused, but emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, you are no longer able to function as one created in God’s image.

    Yet Mary Kassian, instead of going after the devil incarnate in [Lyman Rand Tucker], picks a bone with the devil’s victim. Mary fails to see that complementarianism might give a theological high ground to husbands under the control of Satan to continue to abuse, rape, manipulate, and dominate their wives.

    Mary Kassian writes: “Have I witnessed some men use the argument of wifely submission to justify abuse? Yes I have. It’s deplorable. But I’ve witnessed them use the cover of egalitarianism too.” (http://girlsgonewise.com/black-and-white-bible-black-and-blue-wife/) – the article that I think prompted the first response here at TWW.

    Tell me, Mary Kassian, how do you defend abuse under the cover of egalitarianism? I bet you don’t get to pound Scripture (“The Bible says we’re equal! Now I Lord over you and beat you and rape you”). That’s something the complementarians do, because complementarianism teaches that women are eternally subordinate to men.

    Not a surprise this part of her note is short. There is no defense. She quickly moves onto how the should come together, after spending the entire essay defending complementarianism.

  32. To me it is so simple. First about slavery, Paul said slaves be obedient to your masters and he also said if you have to be a slave don’t worry about it (but) if you get the chance to get your freedom you ought to do that. Second about marriage, Paul said wives submit to your husbands (but) he also said it is better to not get married if you can do that since you will have trouble if you do, but marriage and marital sex is not a sin so if you must get married then you may.

    My terminology, his apostolic teaching.

    So we live in a time and culture where we say that slavery is an intrinsic evil, but it took a horrendous war to get that done including against the people who said ‘the bible says.’ We chose freedom over submission for slaves, consistent with what Paul said was the better option. So we live in a time and a culture which says that women have opportunities and human rights and where abuse of women/children/anybody is a crime. We have changed the culture of marriage (and parenting) such that Paul’s dire warning about trouble can be recognized and steps done toward correcting that. But we still struggle against people who say ‘the bible says.’

    Are they dunces? Do they not get the message in the bible? Do they not see that the bible says both things-do the best you can under the circumstances be it slavery or marriage, but if you can change your circumstances (freedom, celibacy) then do so.

    But what about the relationship between the Father and the Son. First of all, the word ‘between’ focuses on separation and not unity in the trinity, I am going to use the broader term ‘God.’ What about the whole Father/Son (incarnate Word) business. God climbed down into the pit with us to set us free. What, then, are we to say no thanks, I prefer my chains? I prefer to stay in my miserable position even if I have to pick and choose within scripture and even change the idea of the Trinity to do it? Do we so love the evil which enslaved us that we cannot embrace freedom when it is offered to us?

    I guess people either see it or they don’t. I think that their hermeneutic is wrong. (Where is Gram3 when you need her?) I think that they still have hearts of stone. I think that they worship power over people. I think that they have to think that somehow the Father had to force the Son to agree with Him by some power differential because they cannot grasp the enormity of our salvation or grasp how different God is from us.

  33. @ Deb:

    Wait, Deb, look at the picture in the video. She is looking down and reading notes. I thought she couldn't do that….

  34. I decided to watch the video clips with the sound off. I didn’t want to hear her words, but I did want to concentrate on her body movements. I’m certainly no expert, but it seemed to me that there was no obvious limitation of movement in her upper body due to disability. She does do that cute lil’ head tilt to the right but maybe she has always done that. I would think an expert witness could have disputed her claims based on those and other videos that were freely available on the internet, but I don’t know how that sort of thing works in Canada. Is there any possibility that she could still be held liable for fraud?

  35. @ nancyjane:

    The oldest video of Mary Kassian I could find on the internet was the first one in this post. It was recorded AFTER the legal matter was settled. 😉

  36. My sisters and I watched Leave it to Beaver reruns every day after school. We were being raised by our single mother in a really tough neighborhood in the late 1960's and 70's. We wished we lived that way, but even in the 60's, that was not a realistic portrayal of life. The Cleavers were probably upper middle class for the time as June had a housekeeper who came in a few days a week to clean and do the ironing. Many episodes showed her attending PTA and women's clubs meetings, with only one episode coming to mind that showed her really cleaning. Finally, Ward and the boys were often shown helping June clean up after dinner and helping do the dishes. I've never heard Mary before, but she is an untruthful nut! Life is not a sitcom, and we have come a long way!

  37. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    I have what I call a ‘you first’ doctrine to those who make rules and pronouncements. For instance, those who claim that climate change is an immanent threat while jetting all over the world–I will not take them seriously, (though I take the science seriously), until they stop flying. I pretty immediately dismiss what I hear from church leadership when their lifestyle does not reflect their pronouncements.

    Based on your comment, you should find this 2003 article in The Boston Globe quite interesting.

    http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/11/09/charity_money_funding_perks/

    Here is an excerpt:

    If Cabot represents the extreme in compensation, then the DeMoss Foundation’s jet is its match in the perks category.

    Bruce Hopkins, a lawyer at the Kansas City law firm Polsinelli Shalton & Welte and an expert on foundations, said he would advise his clients not to buy a jet because it is nearly impossible to justify the cost as reasonable under IRS rules.

    “It just doesn’t wash,” Hopkins said of the DeMoss jet. “I’m confident if the IRS or a court looked at this, it simply would not hold up.”

    Often, however, the IRS has no way of knowing about such purchases. Foundation assets are supposed to be listed on a depreciation schedule included with each tax return, but the Globe found that many foundations do not file the schedules.

    The $444 million DeMoss foundation did file its depreciation schedule, which shows that the Bombardier – nicknamed the “Gold Star II” – was purchased in 2001 to replace a more modest jet. The foundation spends more than $1.5 million a year to pay the salaries of two pilots and to operate and maintain the aircraft, which the manufacturer calls an “ultra long-range, high-speed business jet.”

    According to a former foundation pilot, who asked that he not be identified, the aircraft was purchased at the request of chairman Nancy S. DeMoss, the widow of Arthur S. DeMoss, who founded a Pennsylvania mail-order life insurance company. Mrs. DeMoss wanted to make flights to remote destinations in Asia and Africa, where the foundation supports missionary work, with fewer fuel stops, the pilot said.

    Larry R. Nelson, the foundation’s chief financial officer, sidestepped most of the Globe’s questions about the jet. But in an e-mail, he said the foundation supports many causes and projects, “most of which are overseas, many in the third world.” The foundation’s latest available tax filing, covering 2001, shows that two-thirds of its $36 million in grants went to domestic Christian ministries and churches.

    Two former foundation executives said the foundation uses the jet mainly “for charitable purposes.” But not always: Since July, flight records tracked by the Globe show the DeMoss jet being flown routinely in and out of Palm Beach International Airport, near the foundation’s headquarters, often to places where the foundation doesn’t make grants. The jet has also flown to Washington, D.C., New York, Atlanta, and Scottsdale, Ariz., among other cities, and to Little Rock, where daughter Nancy Leigh DeMoss tapes a religious radio program.

    In September, the daughter’s trip to Lynchburg was for a speaking engagement. The jet picked her up that morning in South Bend, Ind., 20 miles from her home. In July, her mother took the jet to Orlando, Fla., a three-hour drive from her $10 million home in Palm Beach, to attend a friend’s funeral. And the DeMoss grandchildren have occasionally flown on the jet, the former pilot said.

  38. @ Ken F:
    Ah, yes! “On the Incarnation.” An absolute masterpiece from the best theologian this faith has ever produced. Should be required reading for every Christian!

    Jim G.

  39. I can’t watch these women, they remind me too much of the Aunts and Wives from “The Handmaid’s Tale.”

    Of course, as a single woman of a certain age, they simply do not speak to where I (and millions of other women) are at. They ignore the fact that for the first time, there are more unmarried adult American women than married women. They “minister” (read: indoctrinate) those who share their status in life. Those of us who don’t, we’re not really worthy of their exalted ministry.

  40. Mary Kassain is listed first as homemaker under her recognition as a council member on the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood website. But she is not keeping house? Ummmm. Having taken 3 years of Home Economics in HS, I thought cooking and cleaning was part of the job.

    Mary Kassian, M.C.A.O.T.
    Homemaker, Author, Women’s Ministry Consultant
    Edmonton, AB, Canada
    Distinguished Professor of Women’s Studies, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
    Louisville, KY

  41. Janet Varin wrote:

    She also counseled me that it was indeed possible that the elders had sinned against me, but that it was my responsibility to repent and obey them as a sign of submission, and to never mention anything about the incident as a sign of forgiveness

    No! Forgiving someone doesn’t mean bowing down and giving them the opportunity to hurt you again! Forgiving someone doesn’t mean that you should hide the truth! Forgiving someone doesn’t mean that other people shouldn’t know the truth in order to protect themselves and their families! Forgiveness and sweeping wrongs in under a rug are not one and the same!

  42. Shirley Taylor wrote:

    Mary Kassain is listed first as homemaker under her recognition as a council member on the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood website. But she is not keeping house? Ummmm. Having taken 3 years of Home Economics in HS, I thought cooking and cleaning was part of the job.

    Mary Kassian, M.C.A.O.T.
    Homemaker, Author, Women’s Ministry Consultant
    Edmonton, AB, Canada
    Distinguished Professor of Women’s Studies, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
    Louisville, KY

    EXCELLENT COMMENT!!!

  43. Deb wrote:

    During this stage of our marriage, I was trying to act 'complementarian', and my husband would have none of it. He said I was his equal, and that's how we have conducted our marriage. We strived to out-serve each other, and that's how it's been for most of our married life. I highly recommend it!

    When I got married, my wife had the same thought. The idea was very foreign to me and surprised me as well. My response was the same as your husband. Submission is really not her style & not the reason I fell in love with her. We share our responsibilities, raising the kids, household chores, everything. Except ironing. Never could stand ironing. But she can't stand cleaning the bathroom. I guess that's how we complement each other.

  44. Deb wrote:

    The jet has also flown to Washington, D.C., New York, Atlanta, and Scottsdale, Ariz.

    Ooh. I wonder if they support Driscoll? If I was conspiracy minded.

  45. Deb wrote:

    Shirley Taylor wrote:
    Mary Kassain is listed first as homemaker under her recognition as a council member on the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood website. But she is not keeping house? Ummmm. Having taken 3 years of Home Economics in HS, I thought cooking and cleaning was part of the job.
    Mary Kassian, M.C.A.O.T.
    Homemaker, Author, Women’s Ministry Consultant
    Edmonton, AB, Canada
    Distinguished Professor of Women’s Studies, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
    Louisville, KY
    EXCELLENT COMMENT!!!

    Bwaaahhaaaahhhaaaaahhhaaaa.
    Looks to me like Mr. Mary Ka$$ian (Brent) should now list “Homemaker” as one of his credentials!

  46. Unfortunately, this post just highlights a trend I have seen over my 40 plus year involvement with various evangelical/fundamentalist groups… the more opinionated/strident/abusive the leaders/speaker, the more their personal life does not live up to their rhetoric. While there are exceptions, this correlation is something that I look for.

    Another correlation that I have seen is that the more opinionated/strident/abusive the leader/group, the more authoritarian, which usually leads to shaming as a control mechanism… That also leads to no true accountability of the leaders since that would expose the hypocrisy and subsequent lose of ability to “shame the sheep” into submission..

    Looks like all of these are in play with current case, and SBTS in general….

  47. Calling someone like Kassian a professor and an outstanding scholar does not bode well for the reputation of SBTS, IMO. Peers at Yale would openly mock with disdain Baptists as being able to ordain a five year old (as opposed to the mainline–Anglican, Episcopalian, Presbyeterian, Methodist, UCC, etc.–‘s long and involved ordaining processes). From my perspective, my peers probably gravitated too close to pastorate or academia as a career as opposed to a calling. However, their point gives a window in how the rest of the world looks upon “scholars” like Kassian and the institution(s) that promote them so shamelessly.

  48. I know this is slightly off topic although it does refer to the general subject of honesty and not exaggerating educational qualifications. Albert Mohler’s bio repeatedly refers to him having undertaken research at the University of Oxford but there is no mention of when and what those studies were. This leads me to wonder if these were formal, accredited studies or informal ones. It seems that there is a link between the SBTS and Regents Park College, which is the Baptist college within the University of Oxford and that for over two decades, the college has played host to SBTS students on their summer tours of the U.K. Is this what Mr Mohler means when he says he undertook research there? It might be a stretch but another SBTS pastor’s bio also includes summer study at that college.

    The SBTS and college link can be found here
    “Regents Park is a Baptist college in the Oxford University system. This year Dr Malcolm Yarnell (Professor of Theology at SWBTS, and my very good friend) and I have taken a study group from Southwestern Seminary and Southeastern Seminary on a 18-day tour of England and Scotland. Regents Park has been gracious enough to let us once again stay with them. They have welcomed Southern Baptist students every summer for more than two decades, and they are wonderful hosts. We challenged their hospitality by bringing a group of over 70 students, faculty, and others. They rose to the task above and beyond expectations. David Harper, the college’s bursar, has moved heaven and earth to provide us with excellent accommodations. Some of us are staying at St. Johns College which is across the street from Regents Park.”
    http://betweenthetimes.com/index.php/tag/malcolm-yarnell/

  49. Divorce Minister wrote:

    Calling someone like Kassian a professor and an outstanding scholar does not bode well for the reputation of SBTS, IMO. Peers at Yale would openly mock with disdain Baptists as being able to ordain a five year old (as opposed to the mainline–Anglican, Episcopalian, Presbyeterian, Methodist, UCC, etc.–‘s long and involved ordaining processes). From my perspective, my peers probably gravitated too close to pastorate or academia as a career as opposed to a calling. However, their point gives a window in how the rest of the world looks upon “scholars” like Kassian and the institution(s) that promote them so shamelessly.

    Yup…. My question is why does SBTS even bother… are they trying to gain some sort of “credibility”?? If so, they are being dishonest, because I agree with post above, the criteria of SBTS versus traditional academia is a joke … But, I guess they do not care about what other academics think of them?

  50. I finally got up the strength to watch that first MK video, but only after I put in some time in the back forty dealing with a renegade grape vine. Having fortified myself with the strength of knowing that spring time and harvest are still on track, I watched the video. Now I have to have a recovery period before tackling the second video.

    Mary K is deliberately lying about life in the fifties/ish. She is lying about the statistics, and that is why I am calling it deliberate, because she could have checked that out. She seems to think that birth control was not available merely because the pill was not available-not so, she needs to educate herself. She says that STDs were much less than now-sheesh, has she read about the history of syphilis alone much less the others. She thinks that the common woman lived like June and Ward–no way. She thinks apparently that the only way to be a real woman is to marry a man who can afford the luxuries of the Cleavers. That is called the sell yourself to the highest bidder view of marriage. Statement after statement of hers is a misrepresentation at best (if she is intellectually impaired) and a lie at worst (if she is not.) She is a fraud and a shill and aims to emotionally manipulate women with childish foolishness. IMO it would not be wise to believe one word out of MKs mouth without doing some serious fact checking first. She comes across to me as an ignorant arrogant snob. The only good thing I can say about this video is that if Al is backing her she is making him look extremely bad.

    Now I am going to take a pruning saw to a volunteer eastern redbud who has got herself in a pickle, and then I may feel well enough to listen to the second video.

    I really think that ‘gotten’ is preferable, but I know it offends some folks here so ‘got’ it is.

  51. I forgot to mention that Mary Kassian addressed the wives of Southern Baptist pastors back in 2012 when the SBC convened in New Orleans for their annual meeting. We wrote about it here.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/05/09/calvinista-mary-kassian-to-address-sbc-pastors-wives-in-new-orleans/

    The Baptist Press also covered it (see below).

    http://www.bpnews.net/38154/godgiven-femininity-value-it-kassian-says

    We have written a number of posts about Mary Kassian, which I thought I would share here.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/09/is-complementarianism-for-dummies/

    and

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/05/10/mary-kassian-and-her-complementarian-spin/

    My advice to Mary K at the end of the above post still stands (see below)

    In the meantime, I have some advice for Mary Kassian, who loves to dole it out herself…

    Why don’t you go home to Alberta and take care of your husband and stop telling us how to take care of ours…

  52. @ Shirley Taylor:

    On the last thread we seem to have ascertained the “Women’s Institute” at SBTS is really a “Seminary Wives” series of one day a week seminars over 6 weeks or so and one gets a “certificate” for attending. I am trying to wrap my head around the academic credit aspect and its application.

  53. Lowlandseer wrote:

    I know this is slightly off topic although it does refer to the general subject of honesty and not exaggerating educational qualifications. Albert Mohler’s bio repeatedly refers to him having undertaken research at the University of Oxford but there is no mention of when and what those studies were. This leads me to wonder if these were formal, accredited studies or informal ones.

    I’ve taken free open courses from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. I am now going to say I went to all those schools.

    BTW, edX has a course from Harvard on Judaism starting soon. It looks fascinating.

  54. The examples corruption and hypocrisy being discussed here are nauseating. Questions I have are: why would a professed Christian be dishonest about their qualifications (i.e. Study trip abroad equates to research at Oxford); writing popular light conservative evangelical fodder and giving talks equates to being a distinguished scholar; and there is no shame in bilking insurance companies out of money for disabilities that don't exist; and there is no shame in deceiving or lying; and there is no shame is advising people on what you would never do, because after all you are special? This all is about self promotion of the Elmer Gantry variety, big business religion. Keep up the muckraking. They need to be exposed. I am against imprecatory prayer, but in this case I pray they get what they have coming. God is also a God of justice.

  55. ishy wrote:

    I’ve taken free open courses from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. I am now going to say I went to all those schools.

    Make sure you put it on your resume. 😉

  56. Mark wrote:

    The examples corruption and hypocrisy being discussed here are nauseating.

    It’s part of the five points of New-Calvinism:
    “Total Denial” of facts, truth, evidence, justice, alternative explanations/interpretations, etc.
    “Unconditional Accolades” for New-Calvinist leaders and supporters.
    “Limited Justice” for those who have been abused or otherwise mistreated.
    “Irresistible Inconsistency” in describing doctrine, applying standards, writing biographies, demonstrating financial integrity,etc.
    “Perseverance of the Ain’ts” – Poorly credentialed “Leaders” and “Teachers” must be propped up at all costs.

  57. I am so sorry to read of your horrific accident, Deb. I can’t imagine your friend’s loss that day. Heartbreaking. I hope that God has healed and provided for her through the years since that day. If anyone had grounds to sue or deserved a large settlement…

  58. “Mary Kassian is one of the most outstanding scholars in the entire Christian world [in] defending, defining and teaching biblical womanhood…”–Al Mohler

    I guess the operative part of this statement is in defending and teaching [so-called] “Biblical womanhood.” In other words, this is the best they can do.

    In reading of these movements in the church I find myself thinking of one verse time after time after time- “no lie is of the truth” (1 John 2:21). So simple, so direct, so clear.

  59. Paula Rice wrote:

    Aimee Byrd is the new, repackaged version of Complementarianism, the one that has distanced itself from Danver’s and the ESS, while promoting the same essential message from a platform she jovially shares with a couple of seemingly progressive guys.
    Kassian is Complementarianism 1.0
    Byrd is Complementarianism 2.0

    Something about your post touched on one of the things that bothers me about complementarianism, regardless of who is pitching it.

    This idea by so many complementarians that while, sure, some branches of complementarianism are “far out there,” nuts, and crazy, but at its heart, when taught or understood properly and kept in proper bounds, complementarianism is really quite biblical, helpful, and wonderful.

    The less wacko, more sane- sounding complementarians (sane = the ones who seem to only be against women being preachers, but, unlike the Pipers, are okay with women being cops, etc.), are never- the- less selling a belief that is just as sexist and damaging to women and girls as the wackier form is, though it’s less obvious at first glance.

    It’s as though the “Saner Version of Complementarianism” is like a cookie dough that contains only 1 percent rat poison –

    While the “Wacko Version of Complementarianism” (as promoted by Piper, Grudem, Driscoll, etc) has 95% of rat posion mixed in the dough.

    Which batch of complementarian cookies would you want to eat, the one containing 1% rat poison, or the 95% rat poison?

    It’s a difference without much distinction, except in severity.

  60. I find it amusing, in a twisted sort of way, that Kassian, who basically promotes the idea that women should be casserole-baking doormats for their husbands, got a court settlement to pay her family for her supposed inability to cook meals, so her husband has to make dinner for the family now.

    I know she would say that comp doesn’t box women into being only Stay at Home Wives and Mothers who only bake casseroles, scrub bubbles off dishes, and dust furniture, but yes, that is what they do.

    Comp sites often publish articles with conflicting views, either in the same article, or across different one.

    I’ve been on their sites where in one article, they tell women, no comp does not limit them to being SAHMs, but in another article, they will lament how icky secular feminism has convinced more Christian women to abandon their true calling of God – which is to do the laundry, bake casseroles and do other SAHM stuff.

    Anyway – she promotes this world view that American wives should cook all the meals because that’s God’s design for women, but she now has her own husband doing that task.

    And of course, she is working out of the home, going on these speaking tours, etc, advising other women that God wants them to stay and home and mop floors and cleaning laundry, rather than practicing what she preaches to them, and staying at home herself, and mopping dirty floors and doing laundry.

  61. I am sick and tired of reading “equal but different” as the definition of complementarianism. It is a lie.

    1. No one disagrees that men and women have differences

    2. THERE IS NO EQUALITY in complementarianism

    When you are under someone else’s authority YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are limited in your choices, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are assigned a “role” you must play, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When the limits on your freedom are different than the other person’s, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.

    “Equal in value” is a meaningless term that makes no practical difference in the real world.

    THERE IS NO EQUALITY IN COMPLEMENTARIANISM.

  62. Daisy wrote:

    Which batch of complementarian cookies would you want to eat, the one containing 1% rat poison, or the 95% rat poison?

    “trs” added some outstanding insight and analysis near the end of the “Reformed Complementarian Women Are Expressing Serious Concerns With CBMW” post. It’s several posts ago, which makes it easy to lose track of. Those comments are worth reading.

  63. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    It is theological misanthropy at its finest – using theology as power to try to force ideas and practices on people that are actually evil and destructive.

    I am puzzled now as to what groups like CBMW are hoping to accomplish. The culture has already left their views behind.

    I guess they are seeking to appeal to, or make money off, the small number of evangelicals who are living in a 1955 bubble who find their products appealing or comforting?

  64. Paula Rice wrote:

    But yes, hire her Al Mohler! Honor and esteem her! Better yet, invite her to speak at the next T4G conference! And when you introduce her, make light of the criticism she’s receiving on the internet and stress, instead, her interest in hockey!

    But after he introduces her, Mohler better make sure he plugs his ears or turns his back, or hightails it outta that crowd before Mary starts speaking. She shouldn’t mind — she wouldn’t want to inadvertently teach a man, now would she?

  65. okrapod wrote:

    I guess people either see it or they don’t. I think that their hermeneutic is wrong. (Where is Gram3 when you need her?) I think that they still have hearts of stone. I think that they worship power over people. I think that they have to think that somehow the Father had to force the Son to agree with Him by some power differential because they cannot grasp the enormity of our salvation or grasp how different God is from us.

    I’m right here agreeing with you. Their hermeneutic is “What yields the result “authority over, specifically male authority over.” That is why they cannot *consistently* apply sound logic and a conservative hermeneutic which explicitly includes context including literary, authorial, canonical, cultural, historical, and grammatical. The pre-determined answer drives everything else.

    And that power hermeneutic determines how they view God and why they think it is acceptable to make the intra-Trinitarian relationships somehow analogous to human relationships.

  66. Daisy wrote:

    make money

    Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!
    They don’t know how, or won’t stoop so low as to make a living any other way ……. certainly not a living that is up to their caliber of expectations!

  67. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    It would be more honest of the True Women movement to invite male speakers in to just tell them what to do (think Piper, Mohler, Driscoll) than to parade these women celebrities as some kind of strange role models (do what I say, do not pay attention to the fact that I am not presently doing what I am exhorting you to do).

    Why don’t they just show this film and be done with it?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8kJzBJrOkU

  68. Janet Varin wrote:

    but that it was my responsibility to repent and obey them as a sign of submission, and to never mention anything about the incident as a sign of forgiveness.

    I gave Burwell a link to this in the Mark Driscoll thread (I put the link below in this post), but that whole “leave the past in the past” stuff is not always healthy.

    These Christian psychiatrists spend a chapter or two in their book explaining why it’s usually more healthy to face your pain from the past rather than deny or bury it.
    You can read sample chapters from that book here, if you want (see the Chapter: “Assumption 6”):
    12 ‘Christian’ Beliefs That Can Drive You Crazy: Relief from False Assumptions
    https://books.google.com/books?id=R_sy4bBlUeEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=12+Christian+beliefs+that+can+drive+you+crazy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=swrHVMXvOsL5yQTV64KQBw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=12%20Christian%20beliefs%20that%20can%20drive%20you%20crazy&f=false

  69. Janet Varin wrote:

    She also counseled me that it was indeed possible that the elders had sinned against me, but that it was my responsibility to repent and obey them as a sign of submission, and to never mention anything about the incident as a sign of forgiveness. It seems that anything the Neo-cal movement touches begins to stink, including the scriptures.

    Well, isn’t that convenient for them?

  70. dee wrote:

    She may be a *true woman, but she sure ain’t credible.

    Which, you know, the very idea that this group is comfortable with the term “true” womanhood is revolting. I mean, think about he implications carefully. At some point even those in the movement will understand that gender roles assigned by power are not only repulsive, but haven’t got a darn thing to do with Christianity. This is the whole red herring issue with CBMW, SBTS, Mohler, and the whole fundagelical industrial complex – they are burning through bank roles in pursuit of things that haven’t really got anything to do with orthodoxy or orthopraxy. They are just making it up as they go along…their way to the bank.

  71. Lydia wrote:

    Oh this is so typical. They protect themselves by redefining forgiveness. Hmm. I thought being a believer meant one could be trusted. They demand you shut up andtrust them after doing wrong to people. And what is more bizarre is people tend to follow along with that thinking in a church building and when Christian titles are involved. The last place that sort of thing should happen.

    This reminds me of workplace abuse, too. When I finally began displaying something vaguely resembling boundaries with my abusive boss, she began gaslighting me, suggesting that I was the problem, and that I was not being a “team player.”

    Team player to an abuser like her meant that I should sit there in silence and just take her mistreatment.
    My sister is the same way: she expect me to sit and take her verbal abuse in silence, but when or if I begin defending myself, she takes on the victim role.

    I see these churches are playing the same, or similar, mind games with people. It’s very victim blaming, refusing to examine themselves and take responsibility for how they mistreat others.

    But, churchy people get to slap Bible labels on it, so it sounds pious, noble, etc.

  72. Paula Rice wrote:

    I have a strong disliking of women who forge careers out the kind of stuff Mary Kassian has busy-bodied herself with doing, especially when her own life is no reflection of the values taught in the Bible. All she’s done is followed the example set by others like Nancy Leigh DeMoss, who has cashed in on the whole “Women’s Ministry” movement – a movement that’s based the complementarian lie that women and men occupy different spheres, and must be instructed in separate ways.
    I’d say Mary Kassian represents the old version of the female Complementarian, the one that writes women’s books and speaks at women’s conferences. Aimee Byrd is the new, repackaged version of Complementarianism, the one that has distanced itself from Danver’s and the ESS, while promoting the same essential message from a platform she jovially shares with a couple of seemingly progressive guys.
    Kassian is Complementarianism 1.0
    Byrd is Complementarianism 2.0
    Same problem, different day. It’s akin to taking the polygamy out of Mormonism to make it more acceptable.

    While I agree with this, something interesting is taking place. Maybe it is just me and the ability due to age of looking back at the progression of comp doctrine. Comp doctrine was undergirded by the comp insistence on authority in creation order using a horrible interpretation of 1st Tim to read back into Genesis. Then Grudem and company had to include ESS so there was no question of authority relationships. This is not new. It is, in fact, ingrained thinking for a whole generation of pastors in the SBC. It has been around for quite a while but some who find themselves in a position to disagree are taking on the heretical Trinity portion while affirming the authority/submission portion of the genders.

    But make no mistake. A can of worms has been opened. Those defending comp doctrine without ESS (which is now ingrained in many without realizing it –even down to TULIP and Especially PSA) are going to have a hard time of it if they eat their Wheaties and study.

    So far, all they have done is argue the heretical ESS. They just affirm comp in passing. they have not really debated it at all in light of the entire pericope. People have been instinctively moving away from comp. it is not even practical. The application is mostly just talk as many found out. Most pew sitters pay lip service and live out what works. If this were not a problem the purveyors of comp would not be going to so much trouble to rebrand CBMW, etc.

    The Aimee’s and Truemans don’t want to talk about comp doctrine. They might have to and soon.

  73. @ okrapod:
    Good analysis, okrapod. I agree, the presentation of make believe as fact can most graciously be called propaganda – and of course, that description is generally considered a disparagement.

  74. okrapod wrote:

    Are they dunces? Do they not get the message in the bible? Do they not see that the bible says both things-do the best you can under the circumstances be it slavery or marriage, but if you can change your circumstances (freedom, celibacy) then do so.

    But what about the relationship between the Father and the Son. First of all, the word ‘between’ focuses on separation and not unity in the trinity, I am going to use the broader term ‘God.’ What about the whole Father/Son (incarnate Word) business. God climbed down into the pit with us to set us free. What, then, are we to say no thanks, I prefer my chains? I prefer to stay in my miserable position even if I have to pick and choose within scripture and even change the idea of the Trinity to do it? Do we so love the evil which enslaved us that we cannot embrace freedom when it is offered to us?

    I guess people either see it or they don’t. I think that their hermeneutic is wrong. (Where is Gram3 when you need her?) I think that they still have hearts of stone. I think that they worship power over people. I think that they have to think that somehow the Father had to force the Son to agree with Him by some power differential because they cannot grasp the enormity of our salvation or grasp how different God is from us.

    Wish I could “like” this comment 100x!

  75. mirele wrote:

    I can’t watch these women, they remind me too much of the Aunts and Wives from “The Handmaid’s Tale.”

    Come now, Mirele, don’t you want to sit down to a nice frothy cappuccino with Aunt Mary? 😉

  76. siteseer wrote:

    I am sick and tired of reading “equal but different” as the definition of complementarianism. It is a lie.
    1. No one disagrees that men and women have differences
    2. THERE IS NO EQUALITY in complementarianism
    When you are under someone else’s authority YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are limited in your choices, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are assigned a “role” you must play, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When the limits on your freedom are different than the other person’s, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    “Equal in value” is a meaningless term that makes no practical difference in the real world.
    THERE IS NO EQUALITY IN COMPLEMENTARIANISM.

    Best comment on the topic yet. Although I really, really can’t fathom how the Comp crowd would flaunt an idea that was epically dismantled in the civil rights movement. It’s roughly equivalent to a presidential candidate adopting the hammer and sickle as their campaign logo.

  77. Deb wrote:

    Cousin of Eutychus wrote:
    It would be more honest of the True Women movement to invite male speakers in to just tell them what to do (think Piper, Mohler, Driscoll) than to parade these women celebrities as some kind of strange role models (do what I say, do not pay attention to the fact that I am not presently doing what I am exhorting you to do).
    —–
    (Deb replied)
    Oh, but they do! John Piper has spoken at these True Woman events and Russell Moore is slated to speak at the upcoming one in September, along with other manly men such as the ‘Courageous” Stephen Kendrick.  There’s gold in them thare adoring audiences, and this crowd has to make the most of it while they can.

    I’m kind of torn on this. I see what Cousin of Eutychus is saying.

    On the other hand, it drives me nuts when MEN sit around in books, blogs, podcasts, etc, dictating to WOMEN how and what WOMEN should be like, look like, dress like, and live their lives.

    I’ve said this before on this blog, but I was born female, so in many to most contexts, I resent a male telling me how to (how he thinks I should) be a woman.

    I don’t need a man determining for me if he thinks I am being womanly feminine winsome enough and instructing me on how to go about that.

    I would take this stuff a little easier if it comes from a woman.

    But, per Cousin of Eutychus’, when complementarian women do this very thing, they are sort of going against complementarian principles, to a point.

    Since men run the whole show and should run the whole show (according to complementarian teaching), maybe it’s more consistent to have men direct women’s conferences?

  78. I saw this Paulette Jiles poem years ago on a poster in a city bus. I memorized it as I rode to my destination. It was so powerful.

    Only a few years ago, after my *tour of duty* for 8+ years in a NeoCalvinist/9Marxist/Comp teaching women obey & submit/Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood church…I realized that
    this poem summarized women raised in the Comp world.

    “Paper Matches

    My aunts washed dishes while the uncles
    squirted each other on the lawn with
    garden hoses. Why are we in here,
    I said, and they are out there?
    That’s the way it is,
    said Aunt Hetty, the shriveled-up one.
    I have the rages that small animals have,
    being small, being animal.
    Written on me was a message,
    “At Your Service,”
    like a book of paper matches.
    One by one we were taken out
    and struck.
    We come bearing supper,
    our heads on fire.”

    ― Paulette Jiles

  79. okrapod wrote:

    Mary K is deliberately lying about life in the fifties/ish. She is lying about the statistics, and that is why I am calling it deliberate, because she could have checked that out.

    First, you are a better woman than I for being able to watch the video. Second, you are absolutely right about the 50’s and the way she misrepresents life then. Most of the women they are targeting have no living memory of the 50’s and have no way of refuting what she says from their own experience. The entire enterprise is built on appealing to what cannot be falsified, in the experiential sense, and so it rings true to people who want a guarantee that they can have the Ward and June or Ozzie and Harriet life. And those TV shows were appealing to the aspirations of people *in order to sell products.* Reality rarely sells products. Do not get me started on so-called reality TV.

  80. Daisy wrote:

    I am puzzled now as to what groups like CBMW are hoping to accomplish. The culture has already left their views behind.
    I guess they are seeking to appeal to, or make money off, the small number of evangelicals who are living in a 1955 bubble who find their products appealing or comforting?

    My, I just don’t know. If I believed in demons, I would have to believe that there is demonic force behind CBMW. They are actively attacking historic Christianity, but I believe some of them actually believe they are doing some kind of religious merit badge work. Which would imply that they are not only destructive, but painfully deceived. If that isn’t satanic, I’m not sure what is.

  81. I’ll admit that reading through the court documents I was not surprised by the revelation that Kassian valued money over principle, I have now come to expect hidden corruption from the gospel glitterati. The unexpected part was how Kassian debased herself in front of the judge for such a measly sum of money. Apparently the NEO-Cal glitterati sell their principles at bargain prices.

  82. Bill M wrote:

    The unexpected part was how Kassian debased herself in front of the judge for such a measly sum of money.

    And Advil. She wanted the defendant to cough up money for her Advil.

  83. Ken F wrote:

    Mark wrote:

    The examples corruption and hypocrisy being discussed here are nauseating.

    It’s part of the five points of New-Calvinism:
    “Total Denial” of facts, truth, evidence, justice, alternative explanations/interpretations, etc.
    “Unconditional Accolades” for New-Calvinist leaders and supporters.
    “Limited Justice” for those who have been abused or otherwise mistreated.
    “Irresistible Inconsistency” in describing doctrine, applying standards, writing biographies, demonstrating financial integrity,etc.
    “Perseverance of the Ain’ts” – Poorly credentialed “Leaders” and “Teachers” must be propped up at all costs.

    Fantastic!

  84. siteseer wrote:

    I am sick and tired of reading “equal but different” as the definition of complementarianism. It is a lie.

    1. No one disagrees that men and women have differences

    2. THERE IS NO EQUALITY in complementarianism

    When you are under someone else’s authority YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are limited in your choices, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are assigned a “role” you must play, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When the limits on your freedom are different than the other person’s, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.

    “Equal in value” is a meaningless term that makes no practical difference in the real world.

    THERE IS NO EQUALITY IN COMPLEMENTARIANISM.

    Preach it!

  85. @ Bill M:

    Yes. At some point it became ‘get what you can’ no matter how ridiculous and greedy it looked. The compensation for meals was bizarre. She was asking for compensation for an unpaid task to be paid to her husband for the same task. I am shocked a Canadian judge went along with that part. It was a comp type decision. :o) the man should be paid for doing what the woman, also with a career outside the home, had been doing without pay. Go figure?

  86. Roland Peer wrote:

    But I’ve witnessed them use the cover of egalitarianism too.”
    ( http://girlsgonewise.com/black-and-white-bible-black-and-blue-wife/ )
    – the article that I think prompted the first response here at TWW.

    Tell me, Mary Kassian, how do you defend abuse under the cover of egalitarianism? I bet you don’t get to pound Scripture (“The Bible says we’re equal! Now I Lord over you and beat you and rape you”).

    That’s something the complementarians do, because complementarianism teaches that women are eternally subordinate to men.

    Not a surprise this part of her note is short. There is no defense.

    Yeah, I was going to ask, how exactly does a guy who purports to be a Christian gender egalitarian (biblically) justify his wife abuse, if asked to do so?

    What Scripture does such an egalitarian guy appeal to, one like this?:

    “28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28)

    Or this one?:
    “21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” (Eph 5.21)

    I don’t see where the wiggle room is in such verses for a guy to defend the notion that he supposedly is in the OK with God to control or abuse a wife, unlike the abusive complementarian husbands who appear to these sorts of verses to sanction why they are supposedly in the right to abuse their wives:

    “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.” (Eph 5)

    “But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11)
    —————
    Complementarianism comes with a built-in rationale and twisted interpretations of Scripture as to why a husband can and should supposedly have complete control over his wife; egalitarianism doesn’t provide any such cover.

    I would like Kassian to provide us with examples that she claims to have seen of egalitarian husbands who used egalitarianism as cover to abuse their wives. What Bible verses did these men appeal to in order to back up their position? I’d like to see it.

  87. Do women fall for complementarianism for the same kind of reason that they wear high heels? I’ve long postulated that women’s shoes are designed by men who hate women (just like complementarianism?). When I ask my women friends they typically tell me they like the way it makes them look. I don’t get it. I similarly don’t understand why women paint themselves with all kinds of toxic substances in order to hide their natural beauty. What’s up with that? Is this related to why women seem to go along with complementarianism? Maybe there are certain things we men are not supposed to understand or question…

  88. BJ wrote:

    My sisters and I watched Leave it to Beaver reruns every day after school. We were being raised by our single mother in a really tough neighborhood in the late 1960’s and 70’s.

    We wished we lived that way, but even in the 60’s, that was not a realistic portrayal of life.

    The Cleavers were probably upper middle class for the time as June had a housekeeper who came in a few days a week to clean and do the ironing.
    Many episodes showed her attending PTA and women’s clubs meetings,

    I’m sorry I don’t recall exactly where I saw it, but about 2 years ago, when researching another topic, I found quotes by the actress who plays June Cleaver in a book about the family in America.

    In that book, the actress said in her real life that SHE was not like June Cleaver. She said in real life, she had 2 or 3 children who she had to leave at home every day (she had to get someone to baby sit her kids, I can’t remember if she hired someone to do it or if her mother helped or what)

    Anyway, the actress said she’d leave her OWN KIDS at home at day, drive to the studio to film “Leave It To Beaver” episodes, then return home at the end of the day.

    So, even June Cleaver was not actually June Cleaver.

    But conservative Christians and social conservatives to this day (and I’m a social conservative here myself, but I don’t agree with them on this), they shame and berate women if they are not June Cleaver, whether it’s because women don’t want to be like her or cannot be, due to financial problems.

  89. Gram3 wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    Mary K is deliberately lying about life in the fifties/ish. She is lying about the statistics, and that is why I am calling it deliberate, because she could have checked that out.
    First, you are a better woman than I for being able to watch the video.

    Tell me about it! I watched some of this stuff years ago when they delivered their “True womanhood Manifesto” and it was the topic on some blogs. I just can’t do it anymore. It is like eating saccharine laced with poison to me. It is so fake and deceptive. There was one where Piper had these women waving white hankies cheering their affirmation of the manifesto. It is so cultic.

    There is another aspect of these sorts of conferences that doesn’t get talked about a lot. They jam pack them so that people are sleep deprived after traveling, sharing rooms, etc, and that makes them emotional and totally receptive to the group dynamics. They aren’t there to learn they are there to be indoctrinated and not question.

  90. With respect to that video, ‘feminist’ Women are not the ones trying to wrest authority away from God and use it for their own purpose Mary!

  91. Lowlandseer wrote:

    a study group from Southwestern Seminary and Southeastern Seminary on a 18-day tour of England and Scotland.

    Well, hey. Maybe they will learn something while they are there. And yes, I would bet there are some credit hours being dangled before somebody with this.

    This from our latest request for money for a special purpose that our parish is doing. I quote: “St. X’s youth Choristers have been invited to spend a week in England, singing as the choir in residence at the famous Canterbury Cathedral!” Of course they are joining other youth choirs in doing this, and of course it is vespers (or whatever the Brits call it) and not mass (or whatever the Brits call it), but they will be singing all week and then tour a bit. Another approach to that sort of thing as it applies to us is that Father S who is a priest associate at the shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham goes to England from time to time with a group from the church and elsewhere. They tour and he gets a chance to preach at some service or other, along with others of course. I am thinking that religious tourism pays off for the UK–nothing wrong with that.

    Which is to say that maybe while they are there the Baptist students might want to observe first hand something of how some people do religion over there, for historical interest if nothing else. They might even find that they like the music and (gasp) enjoy the experience.

  92. @ Ken F:

    I agree that every serious Christian needs to read this book; it will be of more value if one can temporarily bracket one’s theology while doing so. In any case, the only English translation available for a long time, and probably the one to which Ken linked on line, was done by Sister Penelope Lawson, an Anglican nun. She was a friend of Lewis, and also corresponded with Thomas Merton. *She* was a well-known scholar. She did cook and clean, but was not married with children. Lewis dedicate “Perelandra” to “the ladies at Wantage” – Sr Penelope’s convent. She first wrote him to tell him she enjoyed “Out of the Silent Planet.”

    *If* Mohler and other comp academics ever read “On the Incarnation” (which I seriously doubt…), unless they read the original Greek, this is the version they would have read. Uh oh… they would have been taught by a woman.

    From “C.S. Lewis: A Biography” by A.N. Wilson:
    “Not least among the new friendships which Lewis formed during the war was his friendship with an Anglican nun called Sister Penelope (Lawson) of the Community of St Mary the Virgin at Wantage. She was eight years Lewis’ senior, and a woman of high intellectual abilities. Richard Hunt, former Keeper of Western Manuscripts at the Bodleian Library and a considerable Medieval Latinist himself, once told me that he thought Sister Penelope the best translator from Latin of her generation.”

  93. mirele wrote:

    They “minister” (read: indoctrinate) those who share their status in life. Those of us who don’t, we’re not really worthy of their exalted ministry.

    As a never-married / childless lady over the age of 40, they don’t speak to or for me, either.

    I think they don’t know quite how to apply their sexist propaganda to un-married women, and that’s why they are largely silent about adult singles.

    You know complementarians can take “wives submit” type Bible verses to beat married women over the heads with that –

    However, there are no explicit Bible verses which say, “All single women, thus saith the Lord, thou must submitt-eth to all males.”

    I guess the expectation or assumption by some Christians is that all Christian men will marry, and some men who are selfish want to be in control of their wives.

    So, they want to ensure a wife will be a doormat to her husband. I guess they are not as concerned with single men not being able to get single women to submit to them in a dating relationship so much.

    Because most adults today are single and forgoing marriage or delaying it, there old defense of why they ignore singles no longer works:

    For years, evangelicals and Baptists have said it is in God’s will for most people to marry (but the Bible does not say this at all). They said this because it was the default of our culture: until several years ago, most people did in fact marry.

    These days, though? Nope.

    There are more singles than married people, meaning that we can use their argument against them: “It must be in God’s will for most people to be single, because being married is so rare, God doesn’t call most folks to marriage.”

  94. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I really, really can’t fathom how the Comp crowd would flaunt an idea that was epically dismantled in the civil rights movement.

    I cannot fathom how a guy like Thabiti Anyabwile can be a shill for this. I met him once and had a brief conversation, and he seemed like a thoughtful guy about some important issues. I do not understand how he buys into this *false* solution to the real problems which he has identified.

  95. My apologies for interjecting myself into this discussion again, but I noticed last night for the first time a sentence that Mary had used in reviewing my book:

    "After one particularly ugly fight, in which Joe grabbed her and threw her to the floor, uttering threats, Ruth phones his parents."

    Folks, this wasn't an "ugly fight." It was domestic violence in its most terrifying form. Fight, my a$$ (ed.).

  96. Lydia wrote:

    According to my iPad, everyone here is now Canadian. Eh? :o)

    I see an American flag next to your screen name. About two weeks ago, when I visited this blog’s home page, on the “recent comments” box on the right, every single flag was the rising sun flag (Japan),
    which I thought weird, because I saw the screen names and new for a fact some of them were American, a few UK, etc.

    I thought, “either there is a glitch on the blog, or everyone suddenly moved to Japan recently.” 🙂

  97. Lydia wrote:

    that makes them emotional and totally receptive to the group dynamics. They aren’t there to learn they are there to be indoctrinated and not question.

    I went with a young woman to a Mary Kay meeting to encourage her during a difficult time. I know, but that’s how I am. Rah Rah You Can Drive A Pink SUV!!! That is what I think of when I think of these conferences. Appeal to emotion and aspiration. They didn’t wave hankies, but they might want to consider that little touch. They would be pink, of course.

  98. Ken F wrote:

    Do women fall for complementarianism for the same kind of reason that they wear high heels? I’ve long postulated that women’s shoes are designed by men who hate women (just like complementarianism?). When I ask my women friends they typically tell me they like the way it makes them look. I don’t get it. I similarly don’t understand why women paint themselves with all kinds of toxic substances in order to hide their natural beauty. What’s up with that?

    Ken, I believe there’s a mutual conspiracy between shoe designers and some women on this…. The whole deal is about “sex appeal.” The high heel makes the calf a little thicker so that the ankle looks narrower – supposedly more attractive to men, but I think women think so because they’re fed a line.

    As for make-up, women are fed the same kind of line. Make your skin absolutely smooth, your eyes look bigger and your lips redder so that men will want to have sex with you. But some of us use make-up as minimally as possible, to conceal scars or blemishes – not to hide our natural beauty, but rather so as not to put people off when we’re out in public, ’cause people can be unkind, stare, etc. Nowadays there are plenty of non-toxic alternatives available.

    (For women here who use make-up, search for “Cruelty Free Kitty” for a great site for info on products that are not tested on animals, and natural and “green” brands, in all price ranges.)

  99. ishy wrote:

    I’ve taken free open courses from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and Berkeley. I am now going to say I went to all those schools.

    I don’t believe I’ve so much as even driven past any of those schools, but I have HEARD OF THEM. In Kassian- speak, is that enough for me to say I went to them? 🙂

  100. siteseer wrote:

    I am sick and tired of reading “equal but different” as the definition of complementarianism. It is a lie.
    1. No one disagrees that men and women have differences
    2. THERE IS NO EQUALITY in complementarianism
    When you are under someone else’s authority YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are limited in your choices, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are assigned a “role” you must play, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When the limits on your freedom are different than the other person’s, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    “Equal in value” is a meaningless term that makes no practical difference in the real world.
    THERE IS NO EQUALITY IN COMPLEMENTARIANISM.

    ^A million times that. Yes and thank you.

  101. @ dainca:
    I’m sorry but this is a completely sexist line of thinking. Woman are indoctrinated and they’re too dumb to realize they’ve been indoctrinated. Some women like high heels and makeup. There’s no deep dark conspiracy theory here. You know there are actually some Rad Feminists who believe that women have been indoctrinated to believe they like sex and that all sex is actually rape and women only think they like sex because MEN.

  102. Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    our heads on fire.”
    ― Paulette Jiles
    That’s a powerful poem, Velour.
    Thanks for sharing it.

    Welcome, Mara!

  103. Daisy wrote:

    I don’t believe I’ve so much as even driven past any of those schools, but I have HEARD OF THEM. In Kassian- speak, is that enough for me to say I went to them?

    Does it count if you visit them on-line?

  104. This is about Al Mohler entering the trinity debate with Wayne Grudem.

    wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/07/08/note-to-al-mohler-individuals-like-wayne-grudem-engaged-in-heresy-dont-proclaim-it

  105. Gram3 wrote:

    The pre-determined answer drives everything else.
    And that power hermeneutic determines how they view God and why they think it is acceptable to make the intra-Trinitarian relationships somehow analogous to human relationships.

    These types of Christians consistently overlook this teaching of Jesus:

    25 But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them.
    26 It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,…

    (Matthew 20)

  106. Deb wrote:

    I can honestly say that this horrific life event made me STRONG! God has definitely used it for good through the years.

    I hope you’ll give serious consideration to sharing your story in a guest post. With True Woman ’16 coming up in September, our sisters in Christ need to know the truth about that stupid manifesto. We will be writing about it soon.

    That testimony about becoming stronger is very moving. And you have used this strength to help others.
    I wonder how many strong women have been forged in fire, and in truth I think probably most of them.
    Very sad about your friend’s parents, DEB.

  107. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    At some point even those in the movement will understand that gender roles assigned by power are not only repulsive, but haven’t got a darn thing to do with Christianity. This is the whole red herring issue with CBMW, SBTS, Mohler, and the whole fundagelical industrial complex – they are burning through bank roles in pursuit of things that haven’t really got anything to do with orthodoxy or orthopraxy

    To that, I would also add the evangelical and Baptist obsession with The Nuclear Family, Marriage, Having Children, and Family Values.

    The don’t just take Gender Roles and blow that out of proportion, but they do the same thing with the other entities I just reeled off.

  108. Lydia wrote:

    But make no mistake. A can of worms has been opened. Those defending comp doctrine without ESS (which is now ingrained in many without realizing it –even down to TULIP and Especially PSA) are going to have a hard time of it if they eat their Wheaties and study.

    So far, all they have done is argue the heretical ESS. They just affirm comp in passing. they have not really debated it at all in light of the entire pericope.

    People have been instinctively moving away from comp. it is not even practical. The application is mostly just talk as many found out.

    Most pew sitters pay lip service and live out what works. If this were not a problem the purveyors of comp would not be going to so much trouble to rebrand CBMW, etc.

    That nicely summarizes what I’ve been thinking, too.

    I think the reason that some of the complementarians went the ESS route is that they realize they don’t have a solid biblical or logical grounding to limit women as they do.

    That is, egalitarians and other non-complementarians have sufficiently disproven, one way or another, that the complementarian claim of, ‘equal in value just not in role’ shtick doesn’t work in reality and not really in the abstract, either, when closely examined.

    I think some of the complementarians realized that, which is why they moved into ESS teaching.

    Now, if only the Aimee Byrds and other lukewarm complementarians would investigate complementarianism even more, they will see there really is no biblical grounds for the “equal in worth but not in role” appeal. It’s a mirage.

  109. Daisy wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    The pre-determined answer drives everything else.
    And that power hermeneutic determines how they view God and why they think it is acceptable to make the intra-Trinitarian relationships somehow analogous to human relationships.

    These types of Christians consistently overlook this teaching of Jesus:

    25 But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them.
    26 It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,…

    (Matthew 20)

    THIS !
    The ‘orthodox’ model of the Holy Trinity is based on mutual love that binds the Trinity in service to One Another. Out of this love is generated all that is good.
    The ESS model of the Trinity does not, cannot fit the ‘othodox’ understanding of ‘Who God Is’, nor can the ‘domination’ and ‘submission’ patriarchal model possibly imitate the loving selfless relationship that the Holy Trinity enjoys and invites us all to enter.

    The neo-Cal comps are a long way from ‘orthodox’ in more ways than one. If you have to ‘order’ someone to ‘submit’, and humiliate them in the process, you’ve already left the Good Way.

  110. Lydia wrote:

    The Aimee’s and Truemans don’t want to talk about comp doctrine. They might have to and soon.

    One other thing I wanted to add. You’re probably right about that, but they will find it a tough road if they go that route, because the moment you start noticing and mentioning how bogus comp is, that is when those still in the Comp Bubble start calling you a “feminist.”

    With “feminst” being code word for “someone who lets their feelings color how they read the Bible, someone who doesn’t take the Bible seriously.”

    Aimee Byrd even mentioned in one of her blog posts from about a week or two ago that other complementarians were already suspicious of her for daring to criticize complementarian guys at all. She said fellow complementarians were calling her “comp lite,” or “a thin comp,” etc.

    Can you imagine if she or the other guy she blogs with starts to take complementarianism on even more, not just the ESS stuff? They will get even more static, ten fold.

    They will be accused of being feminists or liberals (which is meant to get others to not even consider anything they may have to say).

  111. siteseer wrote:

    Come now, Mirele, don’t you want to sit down to a nice frothy cappuccino with Aunt Mary?

    Mary’s husband would have to make the cappuccino, per the lawsuit settlement. Mary can’t cook or make coffee, all that stuff falls to her husband now. 🙂

  112. Lydia wrote:

    I watched some of this stuff years ago when they delivered their “True womanhood Manifesto” and it was the topic on some blogs. I just can’t do it anymore. It is like eating saccharine laced with poison to me. It is so fake and deceptive. There was one where Piper had these women waving white hankies cheering their affirmation of the manifesto. It is so cultic.

    Straight out of the True Woman playbook which is actually called the True Woman Manifesto Ceremony.

    http://reviveourhearts.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/pdf/true-woman-event-kit/TWEK-v.7%E2%80%94True%20Woman%20Manifesto%20Ceremony%20&%20Concert%20of%20Prayer.pdf

    Here is the relevant portion of the ceremony guideline:

    Affirm the words of this manifesto before the Lord by having the women
    say, “Yes, Lord,” after each commitment if it is something their hearts
    resonate with. (You might even want to purchase
    Yes, Lord! Handkerchiefs
    for the women to wave as a sign of surrender.)

    Have extra pens on hand, so the women can sign the manifesto together.

    Then they are supposed to go online and sign the True Woman Manifesto because it’s important to the movement.

    Here is some of the history of the True Woman Manifesto

    On October 11, 2008, a very different revolution began as thousands of women
    signed the True Woman Manifesto and then returned to their homes and communities to live out the beauty of biblical womanhood. This marked—we believe—the beginning of a grassroots, counter-cultural revolution of holy, humble, surrendered women. We are trusting God for 100,000 people to sign the manifesto and join the True Woman Movement—people like . . . you!

    100,000 people… Wonder how many have actually signed it…

  113. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Although I really, really can’t fathom how the Comp crowd would flaunt an idea that was epically dismantled in the civil rights movement. It’s roughly equivalent to a presidential candidate adopting the hammer and sickle as their campaign logo.

    Yep. Telling women they’re equal in value but not in role brings to my mind the “black people are equal in worth but must be separate from whites.”

    It’s rather difficult to convince someone you find them equal in worth when you limit them in life for their lifetime, based on nothing more than an inborn, unchanging trait (sex or skin color). But that’s what complementarians do.

  114. @ Gram3:
    What it would it maybe be fair or accurate to say that Kassian was, in the video (which I’ve not watch – perhaps I’ll watch it later), was appealing to her personal experience, or that of other women, to sell complementarian views?

    If that is so, that’s pretty inconsistent, seeing as how so many complementarians don’t permit the personal experience (eg, Ruth Tucker’s) on to the table of debate.

    Many complementarians will shut down a woman by saying something like,
    “I bet you were hurt by a comp man once, you’re judging comp on your personal experience. You shouldn’t do that. Some comp men are wonderful. You just need to meet the right kind of comp man to see how great comp is.”

    They want to tell critics of complementarianism not to base their views on personal experience, but then they turn around and sometimes sell and market complementarianism based on their personal experiences.

  115. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    I should say, as a former complementarian myself, I do realize on one level, some complementarians are sincerely convinced that making men and women conform to traditional gender roles is the magical cure-all for society.

    They are afraid of changes in society, what with all the transgender news stories, Christians having to bake gay wedding cakes, and so on. I do think some of them are driven by fear and an honest intent to obey what they THINK God wants.

    But as to why CBMW- type complementarians bother to keep trying at promoting this stuff, when society has obviously left their thinking behind years ago, I am perplexed.

    I can see some of the comps are making money off other comps, with their books and so on.

    I’m at a loss (other than those reasons) to see why are still fighting an already-lost battle.

  116. I’m so sick of this kind of fraud. Fraud because she lists homemaker because she’s been trained by comp men that’s what she’s supposed to do, but they give her full reign to be all the other stuff, too: author, speaker, professor, etc. Most people would list those as occupations and also say they are mother, but the “homemaker” gig gives comp credibility. Men give it their seal of approval because she’s speaks/writes comp-speak. They make up their own rules when it benefits their “doctrine.” This facade is disgusting.

  117. Ken F wrote:

    It’s part of the five points of New-Calvinism:
    “Total Denial” of facts, truth, evidence, justice, alternative explanations/interpretations, etc.
    “Unconditional Accolades” for New-Calvinist leaders and supporters.
    “Limited Justice” for those who have been abused or otherwise mistreated.
    “Irresistible Inconsistency” in describing doctrine, applying standards, writing biographies, demonstrating financial integrity,etc.
    “Perseverance of the Ain’ts” – Poorly credentialed “Leaders” and “Teachers” must be propped up at all costs.

    I love this! I wish I was as clever as you to come up with this.

  118. @ Nancy2:
    I’m just glancing that page over.

    This part:

    In this original setting, Genesis reveals distinctive gender roles in numerous ways.
    For instance, the order of creation (Adam then Eve), God’s address of Adam not Eve in Genesis 3:9, Adam’s authority to name Eve (2:23), and the name of the human race as “man” not woman (5:2) are just some of the ways Genesis reveals gender differences in creation.

    About the part I put in bold type. That is super sloppy reasoning.

    I think the Hebrew word to refer to man and woman was “adama” or something? That was their way of saying “Humanity.” The author of that page is reading far, far too much into that word – by referring to Humanity as “adama,” God was not saying men are primary or whatever. That was just the Hebrew word that referred to the whole of the human race.

    I don’t know if I can even read the rest of the page. I feel like some of my brain cells were killed off just from reading that much.

  119. siteseer wrote:

    Come now, Mirele, don’t you want to sit down to a nice frothy cappuccino with Aunt Mary?

    I nearly spit Fritos on the monitor when I read that. But seriously, if I drank a frothy cappuccino, it would wire me up even more than I already am.

  120. Daisy wrote:

    I think the reason that some of the complementarians went the ESS route is that they realize they don’t have a solid biblical or logical grounding to limit women as they do.

    I was listening to American Family Radio last night, and I heard a preacher discussing gender and being under the umbrella of authority. Another Gothardite…

    He tried to back it up with Bible verses. Ugh!

  121. Celia wrote:

    I’m sorry but this is a completely sexist line of thinking. Woman are indoctrinated and they’re too dumb to realize they’ve been indoctrinated. Some women like high heels and makeup. There’s no deep dark conspiracy theory here. You know there are actually some Rad Feminists who believe that women have been indoctrinated to believe they like sex and that all sex is actually rape and women only think they like sex because MEN.

    You’re preachin’ to Muff’s choir here Celia. There’s more conspiracy piffle out there than cat-tails in the Wisconsin lake country. Most of it is like you say from radicalized femi-nazis and the jumpers and long-hair only fundagelical set.
    I’ll tell you this though, the designer who moves the heel spike more toward the axis of the ankle bone and a woman’s CoM (center of mass), will do a brisk business in his or her new line of cute high-heels in added safety and comfort alone.

  122. @ Ken F:

    I’m a former complementarian and a lady, so I may be able to shed some light on this.

    Why many women are complementarians:

    1a.) Women assume being complementarian is the only godly, biblical position, and they don’t want to displease God, so they go along with it to be obedient to what they assume God wants of women.

    1b.) They are brainwashed by complementarian preachers their only alternative is to become a bra burning, man hating, liberal feminist harpy shrew. (It’s a fate worse than death for a Christian woman to feel like she’s going to morph into a person she believes is anti-biblcal)

    2. Too afraid or Lazy to be independent adults and to take full responsibility for their lives.
    It’s much easier (less exhausting) or less scary to let all grown-up decisions fall to a husband.
    ——
    As to the make-up and heels questions.

    American society (and other nations) really expects women to wear make-up and heels.

    A woman got fired or what not over in the UK, I think, a few months ago, for refusing to wear pumps to her job.

    I sometimes think I look better with eye liner on, so I’ll sometimes wear it even around the house.

    A study came out the last year or two that said women who wear make up regularly to work get paid more than women who are bare faced.

    Women Who Wear Makeup Are Paid More (than those who do not wear it)
    http://www.bustle.com/articles/162092-women-who-wear-makeup-are-paid-more-according-to-bummer-study

    I think most men are conditioned to expect to see a woman wearing make-up.

    I was reading an article about this a few months ago. Many women interviewed said when they skip make-up for a day, their friends, family, etc, ask them “What’s wrong, are you sick? You look tired.”

    Even though those bare faced women said no, they didn’t feel sick or tired. The only difference was that they skipped the mascara and lip stick. People are not used to seeing women go without make-up.

  123. Lydia wrote:

    There is another aspect of these sorts of conferences that doesn’t get talked about a lot. They jam pack them so that people are sleep deprived after traveling, sharing rooms, etc, and that makes them emotional and totally receptive to the group dynamics. They aren’t there to learn they are there to be indoctrinated and not question.

    This is the AMWAY approach to mind control. It is consistently used in the Calvinista world.

  124. siteseer wrote:

    Why don’t they just show this film and be done with it?

    I thought for sure this would be one of the ‘women know your limits’ video!

  125. Ruth Tucker wrote:

    My apologies for interjecting myself into this discussion again, but I noticed last night for the first time a sentence that Mary had used in reviewing my book:
    “After one particularly ugly fight, in which Joe grabbed her and threw her to the floor, uttering threats, Ruth phones his parents.”
    Folks, this wasn’t an “ugly fight.” It was domestic violence in its most terrifying form. Fight, my a$$ (ed.).

    I’m so sorry Ruth.

    What Mary Kassian has outrageously defended are felony crimes (assault & battery, etc.). Just despicable.

  126. @ Daisy:

    I should have been more clear. what I meant to say is that they will, at some point, have to talk about comp without ESS undergirding it. At some point their version of comp is going to have to be a doctrinal public discussion. I don’t hold out much hope for either of them as I think they are involved in very hierarchical type churches and will appeal to their polity.

    But they opened the can of worms.

  127. Daisy wrote:

    I’ve said this before on this blog, but I was born female, so in many to most contexts, I resent a male telling me how to (how he thinks I should) be a woman.

    Men are not women. I am a woman. However I am being? That’s true womanhood. What they want is FAKE! Pass.

  128. Gram3 wrote:

    Most of the women they are targeting have no living memory of the 50’s and have no way of refuting what she says from their own experience.

    When I hear them talking about staying home, no education, etc I think that these people want me and my contemporaries to have less freedom than my grandmother did in 1940s Mississippi.

  129. Nancy2 wrote:

    http://cbmw.org/topics/complementarianism/jbmw-21-1-gender-specific-blessings-bolstering-a-biblical-theology-of-gender-roles/

    Just …….. ugh!

    Gems of wisdom that make me want to go hulk smash on them:

    *we should be aware of how blessing throughout the Bible is at times gender-specific
    *they show how redemption restores gender roles through Christ’s death and resurrection.
    *Redemption does not erase gender roles, it restores them….For instance, verse 5 encourages women to be “working at home.” No such domestic admonition is given to men;

    Question: the field Adam is supposedly toiling in…this is not at home in their scenario?

  130. @ Nancy2:

    Also, these people still think marriage will exist in heaven even though Jesus said nope. Who supposedly believes in inerrancy again?

  131. Deb wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    There is another aspect of these sorts of conferences that doesn’t get talked about a lot. They jam pack them so that people are sleep deprived after traveling, sharing rooms, etc, and that makes them emotional and totally receptive to the group dynamics. They aren’t there to learn they are there to be indoctrinated and not question.

    This is the AMWAY approach to mind control. It is consistently used in the Calvinista world.

    Bingo! It is a big part of T$G, too. It becomes a high and they need the fix of more conferences.

  132. dainca wrote:

    Ken, I believe there’s a mutual conspiracy between shoe designers and some women on this…. The whole deal is about “sex appeal.” The high heel makes the calf a little thicker so that the ankle looks narrower – supposedly more attractive to men, but I think women think so because they’re fed a line.

    Complementarians would disapprove of this song. I like it:
    My Baby Loves Me The Way I Am by Martina McBride
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjyaaWmr6z8

    A few lines from the song:

    Don’t need no copy of Vogue magazine
    Don’t need to dress like no Beauty Queen
    High heels or sneakers, he don’t
    Give a damn
    My baby loves me just the way that I am
    My baby loves me just the way that I am

    He never tells me I’m not good enough
    Just give me unconditional love

    That’s the opposite of what complementarians do. They tell women they are not good enough – not for human men.

    So, women must rinse bubbles of sudsy glasses just so, wear make-up for them all the time, and so on and so forth.

  133. Ruth Tucker wrote:

    My apologies for interjecting myself into this discussion again, but I noticed last night for the first time a sentence that Mary had used in reviewing my book:

    “After one particularly ugly fight, in which Joe grabbed her and threw her to the floor, uttering threats, Ruth phones his parents.”

    Folks, this wasn’t an “ugly fight.” It was domestic violence in its most terrifying form. Fight, my a$$ (ed.).

    She’s minimizing. This whole review tells you quite clearly who she is and she’s not a very nice person.

  134. Deb wrote:

    That’s funny! I don’t recall seeing that sort of glitch.

    It was only going on for a day or two. After I posted, I noticed a Japanese flag showed up by my name too, and I’m definitely not in Japan.

    The flags were all later replaced by dots.

  135. Divorce Minister wrote:

    Calling someone like Kassian a professor and an outstanding scholar does not bode well for the reputation of SBTS, IMO. Peers at Yale would openly mock with disdain Baptists as being able to ordain a five year old (as opposed to the mainline–Anglican, Episcopalian, Presbyeterian, Methodist, UCC, etc.–‘s long and involved ordaining processes). From my perspective, my peers probably gravitated too close to pastorate or academia as a career as opposed to a calling.

    Some traditions very proudly reject formal education of clergy, pointing out that Jesus called fishermen away from their nets. Education is viewed as disqualifying, or at least greatly inferior to being called, struck blind on the road to Damascus, etc. This is a legitimate point and certainly their right.

    I think, however, that some hard-line religious folk want to have it both ways: to claim the miraculous call along with the highfallutin education.

    Here’s a sample bio:

    Peter S. Jonahson, D.Min., Distinguished Professor of Global Security.

    Peter was a highly successful entrepreneur in the global fishing industry before realizing that his life was empty. After a season of missionary work with unreached people groups in trouble spots throughout the Middle East, he studied in Rome and received a Doctorate of Ministry in Security Studies. He is now executive vice president of gate security at Heaven, a Fortune 100 organization. We are proud to present Peter as our keynote speaker on True Security.

  136. @ Celia:

    I wear heels sometimes because they look right with the dress, sometimes because my pants are too long and sometimes just because I think they’re cute. Have not been wearing much lately because the bf is a little on the short side and I am not 🙂

  137. I wonder what Mary’s husband cooked for dinner last night…………….I bet he’ll be glad when 2022 rolls around so he can stop cooking.

  138. Ruth Tucker wrote:

    Folks, this wasn’t an “ugly fight.” It was domestic violence in its most terrifying form. Fight, my a$$ (ed.).

    I was terribly angry by Kassian’s despicable review of your book. The minimizing was quite apparent and her arrogance regarding her *scholarly* (ugh) interpretation of comp theology was weak and laughable. She has no degrees in gender studies, counseling in abusive situations, etc. And wait until we review, once again, what her buddy Nancy Leigh Demoss Wolgemuth about abuse.

  139. @ Lea:

    If there is no marriage in heaven, and if in their theology the women will be eternally submissive to the men, what exactly is it that they are fantasizing doing with these submissive women? I doubt that it has anything to do with cooking or cleaning.

  140. Daisy wrote:

    Aimee Byrd even mentioned in one of her blog posts from about a week or two ago that other complementarians were already suspicious of her for daring to criticize complementarian guys at all. She said fellow complementarians were calling her “comp lite,” or “a thin comp,” etc.

    Can you imagine if she or the other guy she blogs with starts to take complementarianism on even more, not just the ESS stuff? They will get even more static, ten fold.

    Aimee will have to be ready to be discarded if she ever decides to really reject it.

  141. @ Deb:

    From your link of the True Woman Manifesto kit:

    “You want them [the women] to know what they’re affirming and to realize that when they sign this, they’re essentially dying to self, personal plans, and desires.”

    Oh no, no no no.

    I believe this Biblical Womanhood stuff, like what is promoted on that page, distorts the Bible and indoctrinates women into believing that these codependent habits and traits are healthy, appropriate, or godly.

    I wrote a few blog posts at this over at my own blog, so I won’t get into it here-
    https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/christian-gender-complementarianism-is-christian-endorsed-codependency-for-women/

    -but telling women they need to stuff down their own desires, goals, and dreams in life is not actually in the Bible, and it’s codependency under another name.

    When or if a woman wakes up to that years later and realize the time that was wasted due to that sort of teaching, a lot of deeply buried resentment and anger will rise to the surface.

  142. Lea wrote:

    I wear heels sometimes because they look right with the dress, sometimes because my pants are too long and sometimes just because I think they’re cute. Have not been wearing much lately because the bf is a little on the short side and I am not

    Me, too. But, sometimmmmmezzz I wear heels to church just becauzzze they mean that I will stand an inch or two taller than a certain couple of men! ; ^ )
    I admit it. I do!

  143. okrapod wrote:

    @ Lea:

    If there is no marriage in heaven, and if in their theology the women will be eternally submissive to the men, what exactly is it that they are fantasizing doing with these submissive women? I doubt that it has anything to do with cooking or cleaning.

    well, the women might be like the Norse valkyries, ‘handmaids of Odin’ silently flitting around and serving mead, and well, whatever 🙂

    The male ego has no bounderies.

  144. Daisy wrote:

    I believe this Biblical Womanhood stuff, like what is promoted on that page, distorts the Bible and indoctrinates women into believing that these codependent habits and traits are healthy, appropriate, or godly.

    All of these people send out a message that God has no real use for women. He just put us on earth for the benefit of men.

  145. Joe wrote:

    I wonder what Mary’s husband cooked for dinner last night…………….I bet he’ll be glad when 2022 rolls around so he can stop cooking.

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.:)
    I wonder if it’s allowable for him to call a pizza joint for delivery, or was it stipulated that all meals must be home-cooked?

  146. dee wrote:

    I was terribly angry by Kassian’s despicable review of your book. The minimizing was quite apparent and her arrogance regarding her *scholarly* (ugh) interpretation of comp theology was weak and laughable. She has no degrees in gender studies, counseling in abusive situations, etc. And wait until we review, once again, what her buddy Nancy Leigh Demoss Wolgemuth about abuse.

    Complementarianism only works under very certain conditions, a huge one is, the guy is not prone to be abusive, or won’t exploit comp male headship teachings to start abusing or exploiting his wife.

  147. okrapod wrote:

    If there is no marriage in heaven, and if in their theology the women will be eternally submissive to the men, what exactly is it that they are fantasizing doing with these submissive women? I doubt that it has anything to do with cooking or cleaning.

    I also wonder, why do the men who believe this assume women won’t have other choices in the after life?

    Even if it were true that women had to submit to men in Heaven, maybe in Heaven, the women decide to visit other places or get hobbies…

    Maybe the women in the afterlife would rather spend their time carving folk art out of logs, or practicing the clarinet, than in hanging around with men.

  148. Nancy2 wrote:

    All of these people send out a message that God has no real use for women. He just put us on earth for the benefit of men.

    And not just God. They seem to think everything women do is about men, or should be about men. It’s disturbingly self centered way of thinking.

  149. Daisy wrote:

    “You want them [the women] to know what they’re affirming and to realize that when they sign this, they’re essentially dying to self, personal plans, and desires.”

    Oh no, no no no.

    My goodness have they got ‘dying to self’ wrong. I have a sister in law more beautiful than Grace Kelly, but who never played up that beauty. Instead, she became a pediatric nurse-practitioner and works in my brother’s office full time. She is a mother of four: a Navy doctor son, a specialized pediatric cardiac nurse practitioner daughter, a Navy nurse daughter (Lt. Cmdr rank), and a son in university. She is educated, cultured (the arts, accomplished pianist), and STRONG. A few years ago, when asked what she wanted for Christmas, she told my brother she wanted a bulldozer to clean out the muck under the bridge that leads into their farm near Charlottesville. She got it.
    My point: Bonnie IS ‘selfless’. And the result of that selfless humility of this beautiful Grace Kelly look-alike has been a life of service that has released lot more productive good into the world.

  150. Lea wrote:

    And not just God. They seem to think everything women do is about men, or should be about men. It’s disturbingly self centered way of thinking.

    It is not biblical at all!!

  151. Lea wrote:

    And not just God. They seem to think everything women do is about men, or should be about men. It’s disturbingly self centered way of thinking.

    Gotta stroke those juvenile male egos!

  152. Gram3,
    If you’re out there somewhere: a 76 year old man from our church called me “a real pistol” last night in from
    Not of a room full of church people. He meant it as a compliment!

  153. Nancy2 wrote:

    Gram3,
    If you’re out there somewhere: a 76 year old man from our church called me “a real pistol” last night in from
    Not of a room full of church people. He meant it as a compliment!

    Auto correct and typos: should read “…. in front of a room full of …”

  154. Ken F wrote:

    Do women fall for complementarianism for the same kind of reason that they wear high heels?

    I’ll be glad to tell you why I fell for it. When my ex-husband and I were engaged we had pre-marital counseling that was taught from the comp position. I was 23 years old and had someone I respected as a spiritual leader tell me that it was the only Biblical way to run a marriage. During my 25-year marriage I was fed the comp line at church, from my homeschooling circles, and from my friends (who were also churchy people). When my ex-husband was verbally, emotionally, sexually, and spiritually abusive to me I didn’t tell anyone. It would have been “disrespectful.” There are thousands of women in the same boat.

    I separated from my ex in 2009 and divorced in 2011. I still have online contact with a couple hundred current & former homeschoolers who have lived the same life. The wheels are coming off many of those marriages, too. Too many women who have long-term comp marriages hit middle-age and they just can’t do it any longer. They’re tired of being abused in the name of being a “Godly Woman.” If that’s what it takes then they don’t want to follow God any longer. They/We are tired of being fed lies and fake “True Womanhood” from people like Mary Kassian.

  155. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    I still have online contact with a couple hundred current & former homeschoolers who have lived the same life.

    I think there are an awful lot of experiences behind what you are saying, Elizabeth Lee. Since “Black and White Bible” came out, I’ve been contacted by women, young and middle-aged, who just want to share their stories with someone who doesn’t know them. They are not happy in their marriages but are too fearful to leave. Most who have reached out to me have not claimed to have been physically abused or terrorized (though they may not have even gotten to the point to tell me), but their husbands’ insistence on headship has left them drained. In one case his headship gave him the right to spend money on a Harley they couldn’t afford, and other stories have been similar—sometimes bullying. I feel so sorry for these women, but they are the ones who must decide how to proceed. Marriage counseling rarely helps.

    I hope you have found peace and happiness in the past five years or so.

  156. Ruth Tucker wrote:

    I hope you have found peace and happiness in the past five years or so.

    I’ve found peace. I’m still working on happiness, but I’m getting there. Thanks, Ruth.

  157. Lea wrote:

    Aimee will have to be ready to be discarded if she ever decides to really reject it.

    That is definitely true. First, she will have to get to the place where she considers the possibility that female elders are not universally prohibited. It took some major traumatic circumstances to get me to consider that possibility. I hope she is wiser than I.

  158. Nancy2 wrote:

    All of these people send out a message that God has no real use for women. He just put us on earth for the benefit of men.

    Actually, that is one of Bruce Ware’s arguments for female subordination and for females being created in the derivative image of God. The Woman was made *for* the man. Woman is the glory of Man. This view is shared by 9Marks and Acts29 and probably a whole bunch of others.

  159. Nancy2 wrote:

    But, sometimmmmmezzz I wear heels to church just becauzzze they mean that I will stand an inch or two taller than a certain couple of men! ; ^ )
    I admit it. I do!

    Sometimes being tall is nice!

  160. Daisy wrote:

    @ Deb:

    From your link of the True Woman Manifesto kit:

    “You want them [the women] to know what they’re affirming and to realize that when they sign this, they’re essentially dying to self, personal plans, and desires.”

    Matthew 5:33-37:
    “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.”

    I have not seen any clue in the new testament that God wants us to live the Christian life by making vows and signing promises. But that seems to be big with this crowd.

  161. okrapod wrote:

    If there is no marriage in heaven, and if in their theology the women will be eternally submissive to the men, what exactly is it that they are fantasizing doing with these submissive women? I doubt that it has anything to do with cooking or cleaning.

    Maybe they are evolving towards the Mormon theology, which if I understand it correctly, they have spiritual sex to populate their new worlds with new offspring- pregnancy and childbirth for all eternity, for the women…

  162. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    I’ll be glad to tell you why I fell for it. When my ex-husband and I were engaged we had pre-marital counseling that was taught from the comp position. I was 23 years old and had someone I respected as a spiritual leader tell me that it was the only Biblical way to run a marriage. During my 25-year marriage I was fed the comp line at church, from my homeschooling circles, and from my friends (who were also churchy people). When my ex-husband was verbally, emotionally, sexually, and spiritually abusive to me I didn’t tell anyone. It would have been “disrespectful.” There are thousands of women in the same boat.
    I separated from my ex in 2009 and divorced in 2011. I still have online contact with a couple hundred current & former homeschoolers who have lived the same life. The wheels are coming off many of those marriages, too. Too many women who have long-term comp marriages hit middle-age and they just can’t do it any longer. They’re tired of being abused in the name of being a “Godly Woman.” If that’s what it takes then they don’t want to follow God any longer. They/We are tired of being fed lies and fake “True Womanhood” from people like Mary Kassian.

    And the Southern Baptists promoting Comps wonder why they have the highest divorce rate in the nation, higher than any other denomination, and even higher than (gasp) Atheists.

    I’d love to see you write up your story and have it here some time. Ask Dee and Deb.

  163. Gram3 wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:
    All of these people send out a message that God has no real use for women. He just put us on earth for the benefit of men.
    Actually, that is one of Bruce Ware’s arguments for female subordination and for females being created in the derivative image of God. The Woman was made *for* the man. Woman is the glory of Man. This view is shared by 9Marks and Acts29 and probably a whole bunch of others.

    I don’t understand Bruce Ware. Perhaps since he’s not here to “Mansplain” it to me, one of you dear people here can attempt to do so.

    If Bruce Ware’s mother was a derivative image of God and she was not made in the image of God, she gave birth to Bruce Ware, than how come he was made in the image of God? Isn’t he insulting his own mother???

  164. Gram3 wrote:

    The Woman was made *for* the man. Woman is the glory of Man. This view is shared by 9Marks and Acts29 and probably a whole bunch of others.

    When they see more and more women are either opting for staying single or marrying non-comp men, they will probably become pretty frustrated.

  165. mirele wrote:

    I did too! So glad I wasn’t the only one!

    Question is, if this was the universal way everyone supposedly lived then, why were they making propaganda to push it back then, too?

  166. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    I’ll be glad to tell you why I fell for it.

    Thanks for your insight. I suspect it’s a similar dynamic that gets so many young families involved. They want to do the right things to honor God, but they are given the wrong model to follow.

    My wife was raised in a more patriarchal family, which meant the women had to find ways to keep the men appeased. And I grew up in a more matriarchal family, which meant the men had to find ways to keep the women appeased. That created a very interesting dynamic that my wife and I have had to work through over they years. Both of us are breaking family molds. We’ve mostly been associated with churches with a more patriarchal bent (we’ve moved quite often because of my job). One had a number or families involved in the homeschooling and “quiver-full” movement. My wife felt a lot of pressure from some of the women, but it was not a church-wide emphasis and we both resisted. That background made a complementarian bent seem like the right thing to do. Fortunately, we were mostly spared from the complementarian abuses.

    My wife chose to not pursue a career because she wanted to help the kids through all the various transitions as we moved every few years, and I had a job that could support her. She did it from a position of strength, it was certainly not done in order to satisfy peer pressure. I thought we should have listed her as a “stay-in-car mom” on our taxes during those years because of all the running around required to take care of the kids.

    I’ve been finding the info on this site very helpful and also healing. The info and analysis “trs” recently provided was like a gold mine. Very good stuff. I’m glad I stumbled across this site. It’s giving me lots of new ideas to wrestle with.

  167. siteseer wrote:

    Question is, if this was the universal way everyone supposedly lived then, why were they making propaganda to push it back then, too?

    The film was excessive, but there was some truth in it. Not the affluence; that was not universal. But the idea of manners was more important back then. My grandmother would have destroyed a child who did not have perfect manners at table. One of my grandchildren has a grandmother like that-but I am not the one.

  168. Daisy wrote:

    egalitarians and other non-complementarians have sufficiently disproven, one way or another, that the complementarian claim of, ‘equal in value just not in role’ shtick doesn’t work in reality and not really in the abstract, either, when closely examined.

    It’s the same manure as “separate but equal”!

  169. Celia wrote:

    I’m sorry but this is a completely sexist line of thinking. Woman are indoctrinated and they’re too dumb to realize they’ve been indoctrinated.

    Celia, I wasn’t saying that at all. I guess I wasn’t clear – poor attempt at subtle humor. I wasn’t constructing a grand conspiracy theory; I said women have been fed a line, not that they’re dumb. Some women want to wear heels and make-up; they’re free to do so for whatever reason. But it is a fact that high heels cause physical problems and eventually deform the feet. Women didn’t wear their heels very high until skirts got shortened in the 1920s and women’s legs could be seen.

    My feet can’t take high heels, never could; I basically have no arches. I wear make-up to cover up a large scar on my forehead from skin cancer surgery, and to fill in the place where the surgeon had to reconstruct my eyebrow after having taken away half of it to get margins clear of melanoma.

    I wasn’t saying what you thought I said. Please cut me some slack.

  170. siteseer wrote:

    Question is, if this was the universal way everyone supposedly lived then, why were they making propaganda to push it back then, too?

    Excellent point!

    For my grandmother, the 50s were spent working with my grandfather on a farm. She had 9 children as opposed to the Cleavers’ 2. She and the children picked cotton, made a multi-acre food garden from planting to picking, and helped slaughter and process cows, pigs & chickens.

    I don’t see Mz Cleaver handling all that in her frilly white apron.

    My mother and father were part of the huge migration from the rural south to the industrial north in the 50s. We also need to insert the Korean War into this time period.

    Because there was such an influx of hungry, cheap labor, wages weren’t high. Both my parents worked on production lines on different shifts earning wages. From which they were able to rent a basement-level, no-bedroom apartment, feed themselves and their growing family, and send money back home to parents & siblings still on the farm.

    That 50s family propaganda was produced because when WWII left a deficit of men for industrial labor, women were told that it was their patriotic duty, their duty to their family, to enter the workforce and produce the materials needed for their sons and husbands fighting oversees.

    It was not so easy to stuff Rosie the Riveter back into the kitchen when the war was over.

    Hence the idealistic portrayals of ‘family life’ based on a 2-kid family, with a white-collar employed father, in a suburban neighborhood, with the focus on mom in the home.

  171. @ Daisy:

    “Aimee Byrd even mentioned in one of her blog posts from about a week or two ago that other complementarians were already suspicious of her for daring to criticize complementarian guys at all. She said fellow complementarians were calling her “comp lite,” or “a thin comp,” etc.

    Can you imagine if she or the other guy she blogs with starts to take complementarianism on even more, not just the ESS stuff? They will get even more static, ten fold.
    They will be accused of being feminists or liberals (which is meant to get others to not even consider anything they may have to say).

    ++++++++++++++

    i see this as abundant evidence of the manipulative propaganda of the whole thing. this reaction itself is indicting the ‘movement’.

    Aimee Byrd & Carl Trueman are asking reasonable questions. If they & similar thinkers have a full complement of sober brain cells (no pun intended), as they observe this crazy hysterical reaction they will find themselves saying, “oh my word…. what have I bought into here…”

  172. @ dainca:
    Dainca, I’m sure everyone here is sorry about your cancer and your subsequent scars.

    You implied that men and some women participate in a conspiracy (your word) because women want to be “sexy.” You state women have been “fed a line” which implies that women wouldn’t wear makeup or heels if only they hadn’t been “fed a line” or knew about the “conspiracy.” You say you were making a joke but then in your subsequent comment state the type of sexist comments. Some women just like heels and makeup. It’s not about anything but that. There’s certainly a discussion to be had about what message we send to women regarding dress/makeup/sexual appeal etc. But saying they’re only doing so because they’ve been “fed a line” or don’t recognize the “conspiracy” is sexist thinking. We need to be careful that we don’t abolish the patriarchy only to create a matriarchy.

    For the record I don’t wear heels anymore so I have to live vicariously through my daughters and their great shoes. But I have always loved makeup. I also shave my legs and underarms and color my hair. I do those things for myself.

  173. elastigirl wrote:

    “Mary Kassian is one of the most outstanding scholars in the entire Christian world [in] defending, defining and teaching biblical womanhood…”–Al Mohler
    +++++++++++++++++
    Scholar?? She’s got some units…

    I’m now officially claiming that I’m:

    *an astronaut because I looked at the stars last night, and
    *a prima ballerina (because several times in my life I have attempted to stand en pointe).

    Like Mary Kassian, I am claiming that I have studied both at the “doctoral level.”
    And like Mary Kassian, I can claim that it will take me more than 19 years to get my Ph.D.

    I’m going the “hard route” and not paying $299 for a diploma mill Ph.D. like my ex-NeoCalvinist pastor paid to a store front “Bible College” in MO.

  174. @ Muff Potter:
    They solved some of that with the platform heel. Not perfect but one can run around in those for hours compared to the others. Of course I have neared sensible shoe territory but at least the styles are leaning more chic.

    I have never understood the idea that liking fashion, make up and such was shallow. Done right, it shows respect for those around you. My mom always said make the most of what you have within budget, take off one of the accessories you put on and forget about it all once you leave the house. That last part is key.

  175. Joe wrote:

    I wonder what Mary’s husband cooked for dinner last night…………….I bet he’ll be glad when 2022 rolls around so he can stop cooking.

    Bwhahaha!

  176. Gram3 wrote:

    Actually, that is one of Bruce Ware’s arguments for female subordination and for females being created in the derivative image of God. The Woman was made *for* the man. Woman is the glory of Man. This view is shared by 9Marks and Acts29 and probably a whole bunch of others.

    This is why I could never be in the presence of Bruce Ware, because I’d chew him out for denigrating women into male property and it would not be nice. I don’t mince words.

  177. elastigirl wrote:

    “Mary Kassian is one of the most outstanding scholars in the entire Christian world [in] defending, defining and teaching biblical womanhood…”–Al Mohler

    I think it’s an admission that no real woman scholar will defend this. They scraped the barrel and this is the best they could find. That’s something to think about.

  178. @ Lydia:
    Muff is right when she pointed out that the people who have problems with women wearing makeup and certain types of clothes are those on the extremes – the feminazis and the denim jumper wearers who never cut their hair. Not that people who post here are on those extremes but in general those types of arguments that women have been fooled into wearing makeup, heels, certain clothes only do so because of TEH MEN are from the extremes.

  179. mirele wrote:

    I wish I was as clever as you to come up with this.

    I think it was more a product of repressed rage. The thought came to me when my wife and I were praying this morning.

  180. Velour wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Nancy2 wrote:
    All of these people send out a message that God has no real use for women. He just put us on earth for the benefit of men.
    Actually, that is one of Bruce Ware’s arguments for female subordination and for females being created in the derivative image of God. The Woman was made *for* the man. Woman is the glory of Man. This view is shared by 9Marks and Acts29 and probably a whole bunch of others.
    I don’t understand Bruce Ware. Perhaps since he’s not here to “Mansplain” it to me, one of you dear people here can attempt to do so.
    If Bruce Ware’s mother was a derivative image of God and she was not made in the image of God, she gave birth to Bruce Ware, than how come he was made in the image of God? Isn’t he insulting his own mother???

    Well, there is a verse within their favorite clobber verses in 1 Corinthian 11 that makes that very point. They ignore it as much as they ignore Ephesians 5:21.

    12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman.

    It’s in there plain as day. But not in Ware’s translation.

  181. Lydia wrote:

    I have never understood the idea that liking fashion, make up and such was shallow. Done right, it shows respect for those around you. My mom always said make the most of what you have within budget, take off one of the accessories you put on and forget about it all once you leave the house. That last part is key.

    Smart woman your mom was. So is Mrs. Muff. I’ve been well schooled over the years about what works and what doesn’t with shoes, accessories and carriage. If more men would would deign to learn from the women in their lives, the lessons could be applied to their advantage in areas seemingly unrelated to fashion. True intelligence is the ability (and it can be cultivated) to make connections between seemingly disparate realms.

  182. @ Celia:

    I was never around the denim jumper types…they were called Prairie Muffins by some on old blogs. The Burqa for the patriarchy crowd. I was around the other extreme in certain settings like mega churches where you could never be too rich or too thin and God created plastic surgeons for such a time as this. That was all for the other women! Not the men, ironically.

    On both extremes, no one was thinking of these types as deep thinkers or wise or much of anything. Sadly.

  183. @ Lydia:
    The extremes I was thinking of were the “Prairie Muffins” and then the Rad Feminists. These are the women who think the only way to save the world is to banish men from society and keep them from interacting with each other. The women who don’t shave anything because it’s all a conspiracy from men. I stated above these are the women who think all sex is rape and women only they think they like it because men have indoctrinated them.

    Now those “Real Housewives of whatever town..” Oh my those women are a whole nother category.

  184. @ Celia:

    I am familiar with the rad feminists from the 80’s. They did not want a mutual society. they wanted women promoted for simply being women. They had a ‘It’s our turn’ mentality instead of earning it. They were keen on starting an old girls network to compete with the old boys. They were always trying to recruit me. They purposely were going for matriarchy. And they came in all flavors. Women lawyers who looked like they had not bathed in weeks, middle managers who dressed and acted like men thinking that was the way and so on. It’s like they did not know how to be a female human being.

    I was busy golfing with the guys. I spent a lot of time pretending none of it existed. Worked for me.

  185. mirele wrote:

    I don’t mince words.

    I don’t either, though I do try to be civil. What that bought me at my most recent former church is exactly nothing except getting myself and Gramp3 Keyed Out. Because there was never going to be a conversation about what the Bible actually says, winsome and sweet or otherwise. They are more interested in the party line coming down from HQ.

  186. Lydia wrote:

    They solved some of that with the platform heel.

    Wedges are the best! My biggest issue is that I would like a 2 inch heel or so and sometimes it seems like it’s either flats or 4 inches, which makes me crazy tall and are uncomfortable.

    I’m not a person who frets about fashion as oppression. Society has had a dress standard for men and women pretty much for all time. What it actually is varies. Ours is fairly lax at this point in time.

  187. Ken F wrote:

    I think it’s an admission that no real woman scholar will defend this. They scraped the barrel and this is the best they could find. That’s something to think about.

    Excellent point. I like the way you think.

  188. Celia wrote:

    We need to be careful that we don’t abolish the patriarchy only to create a matriarchy.

    Of course.

    I wasn’t fishing for pity over my surgery, only explaining – trying to answer Ken’s questions. Obviously, I failed.

    I do believe that advertising reveals our cultural values – which are indeed quite sexist, which sexist slant I was actually attempting to decry. Advertising sends a skewered message to people, men and women alike, about what makes them worthy of love. Of course people, women and men alike, can see through those messages and decide for themselves about what they want to do and buy.

    It seems I offended you, and I apologize.

  189. Lydia wrote:

    Well, there is a verse within their favorite clobber verses in 1 Corinthian 11 that makes that very point. They ignore it as much as they ignore Ephesians 5:21.

    12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman.

    It’s in there plain as day. But not in Ware’s translation.

    They ignore it because it is the point Paul is trying to make in his argument. But again, they pull apart a coherent argument and totally miss the point because they are so Gram-with-a-donut focused on kephale meaning Authority Over. Grudem gets practically hysterical over it.

  190. Gus wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    egalitarians and other non-complementarians have sufficiently disproven, one way or another, that the complementarian claim of, ‘equal in value just not in role’ shtick doesn’t work in reality and not really in the abstract, either, when closely examined.
    It’s the same manure as “separate but equal”!

    It is the same thing perpetrated by descendants of the same people who promoted separate but equal. What is interesting but little known part of this awful history is that there were apologists for separate but equal among African Americans. These apology gist S would spy for white supremacist groups. Parallels are striking here.

  191. @ dainca:
    There’s no need for an apology. And I, as I’m sure everyone here would agree, am sincerely sorry for your fight against cancer and send out only the best of wishes. Doesn’t mean I won’t call out a sexist comment when I see it.

  192. dainca wrote:

    trying to answer Ken’s questions.

    Thanks for your feedback. I can understand using some makeup, but so much of it is toxic. My wife was recently reading to me an article about a study on finding toxins in the blood from nail polish. Wow. We live in the South, where makeup is applied so liberally that to me it makes women look like mannequins. My wife hardly wears any (by her own choice), which I much prefer. Heels completely confuse me because they cause so much damage to bone structures of the foot. But maybe I’m just too practical. In any case, I’m wondering if women do this to themselves because they want to or because they think it’s expected of them by the culture. I’m not in favor of cultural norms that result in physical harm.

  193. @ Elizabeth Lee:

    “I still have online contact with a couple hundred current & former homeschoolers who have lived the same life. The wheels are coming off many of those marriages, too. Too many women who have long-term comp marriages hit middle-age and they just can’t do it any longer. They’re tired of being abused in the name of being a “Godly Woman.” If that’s what it takes then they don’t want to follow God any longer. They/We are tired of being fed lies and fake “True Womanhood” from people like Mary Kassian.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    this would make a good story. complete with photos, filmed interviews of these real people, telling their real stories. For TWW, a magazine, investigative journalism….

  194. @ Ruth Tucker:

    “Since “Black and White Bible” came out, I’ve been contacted by women, young and middle-aged, who just want to share their stories with someone who doesn’t know them. They are not happy in their marriages but are too fearful to leave. Most who have reached out to me have not claimed to have been physically abused or terrorized (though they may not have even gotten to the point to tell me), but their husbands’ insistence on headship has left them drained.”
    +++++++++

    yes, there is a story here.

  195. @ elastigirl:

    We are definitely open to sharing personal testimonies of this kind. We always authenticate our guest posters. If they prefer to remain anonymous, we will accommodate their wishes for their protection.

  196. @ siteseer:
    You would probably like my book “Women Equal – No Buts: Powered by the same Source. I was employed by Baptist General Convention of Texas for almost 15 years and was a Baptist for 52 of those years.

  197. My only vanity these days is keeping my longish blonde hair clean and shining, and yes the white is coming in and that’s okay. I’m good with it.
    Clothes? I had a ‘working wardrobe’ as a teacher that was ‘professional’, yes. But with retirement, I look so much more like that blond girl with the pony in the Duluth Trading Work Clothes ads on telly. And I’m good with this, too.

    If a woman is healthy, with good teeth, good skin coloring, and shining hair, she CAN get away with a bit of mascara and a little olive oil on her lips for gloss. But no amount of expensive make-up will hide a body that has not been cared for with exercise, and healthy food. And no amount of money can buy the confidence that a woman can get from knowing she can take care of herself and hers if she has to do this at some point in future.

    I don’t mind the frills. But that’s what they are. I think what makes a ‘woman’ feminine is something a bit more substantive and it has to do with inner strength, with love, with faith, and with a joie de vivre that comes from the natural serenity that arises from good will towards others. You can’t buy it, or put it on. And it’s not found in ‘cover-up’.

  198. @ Deb:

    Ugh. I remember one blog that kept linking to the sign up to see how the numbers were faring. I did not keep up. But I do remember a few women who went to that one and came home in a daze because it was their wake up call that things were not right. A few of them posted comments to that effect. all this Mary Kassian stuff is bringing back memories of the blogosphere back then. Some of us were simply looking for others who knew anything about spiritual abuse issues.

  199. @ Gram3:

    The Grudemites are hysterical now over people questioning his scholarship. If one can call it that. For those who have sought to be public figures, they sure are a thin skinned lot.

  200. dainca wrote:

    I do believe that advertising reveals our cultural values – which are indeed quite sexist, which sexist slant I was actually attempting to decry. Advertising sends a skewered message to people, men and women alike, about what makes them worthy of love. Of course people, women and men alike, can see through those messages and decide for themselves about what they want to do and buy.

    I do think some women may wear heels and make-up because they genuinely enjoy it – I was saying above I sometimes were eye liner, even if I’m staying in all day and nobody is going to see me, because I like the way it looks.

    But I do think there is heavy cultural pressure on women, by advertising, for one – to care too much about what they look like, to feel being young and pretty is all they have to offer men or the world.

    Complementarians certainly promote those views in their literature, which is all the more galling because when I see them do it, it’s after they spend several paragraphs telling women NOT to fret over their looks and to remember to base their value in God.

  201. Lydia wrote:

    The Grudemites are hysterical now over people questioning his scholarship. If one can call it that. For those who have sought to be public figures, they sure are a thin skinned lot.

    gosh, I would think a real scholar would welcome attention on his work, so that he can explain how he came about his findings . . . Grudem sounds like someone who came to ‘fame’ too quickly and was unable to handle the adulation with equanimity within his own small world.
    But when he went to attack the Holy Trinity, he entered a larger arena. And the only approval he will find there will go to the supporters of the consistent orthodoxy of the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity through time in the whole Church.
    Scholars usually live for the challenge of debate and discourse about their work. If he’s not up to it, that does not speak well for him, no.

  202. @ Daisy:

    My mother never wore makeup and she was a pretty woman. It was a cultural thing because it was associated with worldliness. It doesn't matter to me, but I tell my female friends who feel bad for not being made up that they look fine without the makeup. Also in some jobs, particularly if you have to work in a clean room, makeup is taboo because the makeup flakes off particles which increases risk of lack of sterility.

  203. Shirley Taylor wrote:

    @ siteseer:
    You would probably like my book “Women Equal – No Buts: Powered by the same Source. I was employed by Baptist General Convention of Texas for almost 15 years and was a Baptist for 52 of those years.

    I also enjoyed Shirley’s book Dethroning Male Headship.

    I am so thankful to know all of you and to be deprogrammed from this nonsense that I knew was wrong, wrong, wrong.

  204. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Ruth Tucker:
    “Since “Black and White Bible” came out, I’ve been contacted by women, young and middle-aged, who just want to share their stories with someone who doesn’t know them. They are not happy in their marriages but are too fearful to leave. Most who have reached out to me have not claimed to have been physically abused or terrorized (though they may not have even gotten to the point to tell me), but their husbands’ insistence on headship has left them drained.”
    +++++++++
    yes, there is a story here.

    Also, A Cry for Justice (ministry of Jeff Crippen and Barbara Roberts) covers those kind of stories. So does Julie Anne over at Spiritual Sounding Board.

  205. Lydia wrote:

    Well, there is a verse within their favorite clobber verses in 1 Corinthian 11 that makes that very point. They ignore it as much as they ignore Ephesians 5:21.
    12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman.
    It’s in there plain as day. But not in Ware’s translation.

    So true, Lydia.

    These men and women only have themselves to blame for digressing from The Gospel and touting another Gospel. Gospel & a bunch of man-made rules. No Good News at all.
    Shackles.

  206. ^Clarification: These men being Ware, Grudem & the others being put on the hot seat and Mary Kassian etc.

  207. Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Well, there is a verse within their favorite clobber verses in 1 Corinthian 11 that makes that very point. They ignore it as much as they ignore Ephesians 5:21.
    12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman.
    It’s in there plain as day. But not in Ware’s translation.

    So true, Lydia.

    These men and women only have themselves to blame for digressing from The Gospel and touting another Gospel. Gospel & a bunch of man-made rules. No Good News at all.
    Shackles.

    and Jesus (full Man, and full God) came from a woman, and as Sojourner Truth once said, ‘men didn’t have nothing to do with it)

    and as LYDIA once said, God didn’t tell Mary to go and ask her betrothed Joseph if she could say ‘yes’ to the Incarnation

  208. Christiane wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Well, there is a verse within their favorite clobber verses in 1 Corinthian 11 that makes that very point. They ignore it as much as they ignore Ephesians 5:21.
    12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman.
    It’s in there plain as day. But not in Ware’s translation.
    *************************************

    and Jesus (full Man, and full God) came from a woman, and as Sojourner Truth once said, ‘men didn’t have nothing to do with it)
    and as LYDIA once said, God didn’t tell Mary to go and ask her betrothed Joseph if she could say ‘yes’ to the Incarnation

    Exactly!

  209. dainca wrote:

    Celia wrote:

    We need to be careful that we don’t abolish the patriarchy only to create a matriarchy.

    Of course.

    I wasn’t fishing for pity over my surgery, only explaining – trying to answer Ken’s questions. Obviously, I failed.

    I do believe that advertising reveals our cultural values – which are indeed quite sexist, which sexist slant I was actually attempting to decry. Advertising sends a skewered message to people, men and women alike, about what makes them worthy of love. Of course people, women and men alike, can see through those messages and decide for themselves about what they want to do and buy.

    It seems I offended you, and I apologize.

    I understood and appreciated what you were trying to say, FWIW.

  210. Gram3 wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Well, there is a verse within their favorite clobber verses in 1 Corinthian 11 that makes that very point. They ignore it as much as they ignore Ephesians 5:21.

    12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman.

    It’s in there plain as day. But not in Ware’s translation.

    They ignore it because it is the point Paul is trying to make in his argument. But again, they pull apart a coherent argument and totally miss the point because they are so Gram-with-a-donut focused on kephale meaning Authority Over. Grudem gets practically hysterical over it.

    I was talking with a guy the other day who said that God genetically designed women to be nurturers and men to be workers … when I pointed out all of us get half of our genes from our moms and half from our dads, he said that it doesn’t work that way. They are so invested in this they have to keep making things up to prop up their teachings.

  211. I am hoping I can offer an analogous evaluation of Mary K.’s situation.

    When I was in the military I worked with a nurse whose father ran the prison farms at the Huntsville, Texas prison. She grew up with babysitters that were honor inmates. These inmates had earned privileges through compliance with the rules of the prison system that allowed them freedom of movement and actions that were not available to other inmates.

    In a way, I think that MK, and other female complementarian celebrities, have earned privileges that allow them freedom of movement and action outside being simply wives and mothers. They have earned this by essentially guarding the position of the male hierarchy and setting boundaries that other women must follow, though they do not.

    It would be interesting to see the response of the male hierarchy if one of these women ever steps off the plantation so to speak, (we may soon see that with Aimee Byrd as she seems to be seeing the contradictions inherent in the doctrine espoused by that hierarchy). My hope is that they will be gentle with her, but judging by how this group treats others (think Village Church) I have my doubts. Any that move away from that view who have tasted privilege will probably be treated badly, sad to say. Must keep the ewes in line.

  212. @ Christiane:
    These latest posts from Mortification of Spin may well be the final words the authors have to say on the matter of ESS. There is no doubt that the position of Ware and Grudem is clear heresy, as evidenced by what Todd Pruitt reveals in Grudem’s Systematic Theology. He says –


    I have truly tried to be as charitable as possible to Drs. Ware and Grudem during this debate over their theology of the Trinity. But when I read passages like the one below from Dr. Grudem’s wildly popular Systematic Theology I can barely keep my head from spinning.
    The husband’s role is parallel to God the Father and the wife’s role is parallel to that of God the Son. … And, although it is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture, the gift of children within marriage, coming from both the father and the mother, and subject to the authority of both father and mother is analogous to the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son in the Trinity. (pp. 256-257)
    Come let us reason together!

    This goes far beyond reasonable speculation. In an effort to be charitable I want to call it exotic. But that will not do. It is worse than exotic. It may well be blasphemous. ”
    The logical conclusion of what they are saying is that the the Holy Spirit is the child of God and the Lord Jesus.

    You can read the full post here

    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/a-mythological-godhead?utm_source=Mortification+of+Spin&utm_campaign=9f60f2ee75-1517&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8878352885-9f60f2ee75-119263361#.V4JTXJB4WrU

    It makes sorry reading.

  213. Jamie Carter wrote:

    I was talking with a guy the other day who said that God genetically designed women to be nurturers and men to be workers … when I pointed out all of us get half of our genes from our moms and half from our dads, he said that it doesn’t work that way. They are so invested in this they have to keep making things up to prop up their teachings.

    Ah, science. Ruining so many good theories for men!

  214. Lowlandseer wrote:

    You can read the full post here

    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/a-mythological-godhead?utm_source=Mortification+of+Spin&utm_campaign=9f60f2ee75-1517&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8878352885-9f60f2ee75-119263361#.V4JTXJB4WrU

    It makes sorry reading.

    Indeed it does!
    This, from Grudem’s ‘Systematic Theology’:

    “The husband’s role is parallel to God the Father and the wife’s role is parallel to that of God the Son. … And, although it is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture, the gift of children within marriage, coming from both the father and the mother, and subject to the authority of both father and mother is analogous to the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son in the Trinity. (pp. 256-257)

    so ESS wasn’t bad enough????
    I guess they are going to try to take out the whole Trinity this time. I’m sure they will get pushback.

    I’m not up on Grudem, but are the rest of his writings so bizarre, LOWLANDSEER ?

  215. I have a question concerning Mary Ka$$ian’s lawsuit.
    The airbags in the car did not deploy. Why didn’t she sue the auto maker and/or the company that made the airbags? Is she afraid to take on a big corporation because they can afford the lawyers, researchers, and publicity that will out her and her agenda, ruining her “reputation”?

  216. Jamie Carter wrote:

    I was talking with a guy the other day who said that God genetically designed women to be nurturers and men to be workers … when I pointed out all of us get half of our genes from our moms and half from our dads, he said that it doesn’t work that way. They are so invested in this they have to keep making things up to prop up their teachings.

    The nurturing and working were part of the curse, not our genetic makeup. I find it really interesting that they take the curse and turn it into God’s eternal plan in most of their central theology. But when your salvation is not Christ, but something else (in their case, the church), then there’s no true freedom from the curse.

    God designed us to be in communion with Him.

  217. @ ishy:

    Where do you see nurturing in the curse?

    And how interesting that grudem seems to have remembered the Holy Spirit and assigned a role that he just made up because of reasons! If the trinity were really mean to model a family, the spirit would likely have been the model for wife not child, since we already have a father and son. How they make son wife is so strange!

    I still firmly believe that these folks are missing the point of metaphor in a rather large way.

  218. ishy wrote:

    I find it really interesting that they take the curse and turn it into God’s eternal plan in most of their central theology.

    Well, let me clarify, they consider women still under the curse, but men are supposed to be free from it and just sit around telling the women what to do.

    Can you imagine some of these guys surviving in the wilderness?

  219. Lea wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Where do you see nurturing in the curse?

    I don’t, but I have heard Calvinistas and complementarians use v. 3:16 to support that the woman’s place in bearing and raising children: To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.

  220. ishy wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Where do you see nurturing in the curse?

    I don’t, but I have heard Calvinistas and complementarians use v. 3:16 to support that the woman’s place in bearing and raising children: To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.

    Thanks. Since that only refers to actually birthing children I wasn’t sure.

    They sure do like to read things in!!

  221. Christiane wrote:

    I’m not up on Grudem, but are the rest of his writings so bizarre, LOWLANDSEER ?

    I just realized that Grudem is ill. Could that be a contributing factor towards some of his strange beliefs? If it is, then he needs prayer. AND he needs for his ‘friends’ to speak to him about some of the strange ideas he is proposing about the Holy Trinity.

    I think some of the bizarre teachings out there may be coming from a place of illness for some of these neo-Cal types. I’m thinking Grudem admits to Parkinsons, and I suspect Piper is not well.

    If this is true, then their ‘friends’ all the more need to come to their aid, and not stand back and watch them make fools of themselves.

    http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/i-have-parkinson-s-and-i-am-at-peace

  222. ishy wrote:

    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.

    ….. And thus, it will be your God ordained duty to cook, clean, and rinse soap bubbles to man’s satisfaction.

  223. Nancy2 wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children.
    ….. And thus, it will be your God ordained duty to cook, clean, and rinse soap bubbles to man’s satisfaction.

    Exactly so. Throw that curse down on women, but conveniently forget the part where it says they should be growing their own food by the sweat of their brow.

  224. Jamie Carter wrote:

    I was talking with a guy the other day who said that God genetically designed women to be nurturers and men to be workers …

    Let’s assume he is correct for a moment. Does he say that it follows that men cannot be nurturers and that women cannot work? The strength of his argument falls away when we consider that exclusively female nurturing extends to childbearing and nursing. Beyond that, fathers are just as good and sometimes better. Same with work if the idea of work is extended beyond physical labor. So, his conclusions are culturally-bound and time-bound. Not universal truth.

  225. Gram3 wrote:

    Jamie Carter wrote:
    I was talking with a guy the other day who said that God genetically designed women to be nurturers and men to be workers …
    Gram 3: Let’s assume he is correct for a moment. Does he say that it follows that men cannot be nurturers and that women cannot work? The strength of his argument falls away when we consider that exclusively female nurturing extends to childbearing and nursing. Beyond that, fathers are just as good and sometimes better. Same with work if the idea of work is extended beyond physical labor. So, his conclusions are culturally-bound and time-bound. Not universal truth.

    Beyond that, what of widows and widowers with children, and single women?

  226. Lowlandseer wrote:

    Note that this debate has been going on for a long time and rather than respond to the criticism, all Ware,Grudem and their supporters have done is to denigrate those who,have the temerity to question their judgment.

    Yes, that is all they do. Been there. Done that. Grudem had a hissy fit, Owen was outdid himself with adjectives and metaphors when Grudem’s hissy fit was published. Ware, at least, has tried the nuancing route, but that does not seem to be working very well. There is some good material here:

    https://secundumscripturas.com/

  227. siteseer wrote:

    I am sick and tired of reading “equal but different” as the definition of complementarianism. It is a lie.
    1. No one disagrees that men and women have differences
    2. THERE IS NO EQUALITY in complementarianism
    When you are under someone else’s authority YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are limited in your choices, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When you are assigned a “role” you must play, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    When the limits on your freedom are different than the other person’s, YOU ARE NOT EQUAL.
    “Equal in value” is a meaningless term that makes no practical difference in the real world.
    THERE IS NO EQUALITY IN COMPLEMENTARIANISM.

    Have to discuss this with Jesus

  228. Gram3 wrote:

    So, his conclusions are culturally-bound and time-bound. Not universal truth.

    Indeed. Women have always worked anyway. Proverbs woman worked. Women who work in the home or the yard or the church are working too. Are they getting paid by a ‘boss’ is a different question. This sort of designation is silly.

  229. @ Christiane:
    I gave up reading Grudem’s Systematic Theology a long time ago. It never read like a Systematic theology and I found his attempts to turn it into a means of worship with hymns and meditations rather frivolous. He seemed to me to be reinventing terms, particularly when he called himself reformed but promoted non-cessationist views on the charismata. That to me was (and is) a contradiction in terms. My conclusion was that the book was more about him than a setting forth of truth.

  230. Christiane wrote:

    I just realized that Grudem is ill. Could that be a contributing factor towards some of his strange beliefs?

    I think that was recently posted when he came under fire for his heretical teachings about the Trinity. And yes, we are praying for him.

    He has, however, held to these heretical beliefs for decades. Plenty of other Christians with a gamut of serious health problems don’t resort to lying about the Trinity.

  231. Thanks, VELOUR and LOWLANDSEER

    I suppose I wanted to find a REASON why someone would do these things …. no one in their right mind would come at the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity so aggressively

  232. Christiane wrote:

    I just realized that Grudem is ill. Could that be a contributing factor towards some of his strange beliefs?

    If you ever become ill don’t you hope that people won’t assume everything you taught or wrote was due to your illness?

    Illness is not the only reason people say or do horrible things or say untrue things.(,I noticed you implied abusers are mentally ill on Wade’s blog)

    sometimes they are just dishonest or bad or even evil. Don’t ever forget the Soviets claimed dissenters were mentally ill because they disagreed. So that thinking can come back to bite.

  233. Gram3 wrote:

    Jamie Carter wrote:

    I was talking with a guy the other day who said that God genetically designed women to be nurturers and men to be workers …

    Let’s assume he is correct for a moment. Does he say that it follows that men cannot be nurturers and that women cannot work? The strength of his argument falls away when we consider that exclusively female nurturing extends to childbearing and nursing. Beyond that, fathers are just as good and sometimes better. Same with work if the idea of work is extended beyond physical labor. So, his conclusions are culturally-bound and time-bound. Not universal truth.

    He does – he puts it this way: “Men and women are equal in STANDING or WORTH, but not equal in ROLE or ESSENCE. And the latter could not be more obvious. The vast majority of women cannot compete with men physically, nor are the vast majority of men sensitive or good with children.” The point of his blog post is that moms shouldn’t have jobs and working women shouldn’t have kids: https://wordweld.wordpress.com/2016/07/08/mom-make-up-your-mind/
    In his book, true women are stay-at-home moms.

  234. Christiane wrote:

    Thanks, VELOUR and LOWLANDSEER
    I suppose I wanted to find a REASON why someone would do these things …. no one in their right mind would come at the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity so aggressively

    I know you are a kind and charitable person and are looking for a ‘reason’ to mitigate his heretical, abusive, damaging teachings about the Trinity to make women second-class citizens in the Body of Christ.

    I have witnessed the incredible damage that his teachings have done to marriages, families, churches, women, men, children, our witness as Christians before unbelievers,
    the damage done to The Gospel (you’re destined for Hell and not a believer if you don’t support Comp heresy), people leaving the faith…and I think that he has been under-criticized given the level of damage he has done.

  235. Lydia wrote:

    So that thinking can come back to bite.

    Hi Lydia,
    I can see your point. But ruling out illness seems at least more humane than just assuming wrong-doing from evil or being bad. I think of Andrea Yates who drowned her five little ones and how people reacted. Of course, these theologians can have any opinions that they want, but when their opinions are SO bizarre, one can at least speculate as to ‘why?’. I still think Piper is unwell.
    About ‘evil’. Oh yeah, I believe it exists. I have no doubt of it, I’m Catholic.
    But if there IS any possibility of a chance to give a person the benefit of the doubt, I think it is the right thing to do. It may actually be a corollary of ‘forgiving your enemies’, if you think about it.

  236. @ Christiane:

    What about the ‘enemies’ who teach another Christ? Just my opinion, I think it best to engage the teaching/actions. The “why” they teach or do what they do is not always possible to know for sure. It is a deflection. Your reasoning sounds compassionate but not to the victims. These end up being appeals to the heart or motive which as we are told over and over we cannot ever know for sure. This was the big argument for Driscoll for years. “We can’t know his heart”. Or, that he has bad motives. I could not figure out why it mattered. We can only go by what they say or do. And those as a pattern of behavior should be enough when it comes to non criminal behavior.

    The insanity plea for evil criminal acts does buy the criminals better prison accommodations, though.

  237. Velour wrote:

    I have witnessed the incredible damage that his teachings have done to marriages, families, churches, women, men, children, our witness as Christians before unbelievers,
    the damage done to The Gospel (you’re destined for Hell and not a believer if you don’t support Comp heresy), people leaving the faith…and I think that he has been under-criticized given the level of damage he has done.

    Hi VELOUR,
    I accept your witness. I don’t know if I was trying to ‘mitigate’ so much as looking for some reason WHY the bizarre attack on the Trinity.
    I understand great harm has been done to many people as a result of neo-Cal patriarchy. Already on the discussion section comes the story of the young teen who was confronted and pressured at an SBC youth camp. He stood his ground with integrity, in spite of the pressure, which showed great maturity and character for his age. Not a whole lot of adults could handle that kind of abuse with such grace. Are these neo-Cal leaders so blind that they cannot see the results of their misguided teachings? Do you think they would repent and change IF they realized the pain they have caused and are causing?
    At some point, this has to impact them at some level. But until then, they need to be confronted and people need to be warned, and the injured need advocacy and a place to come and heal (TWW helps).

    BTW, I’m not that soft-hearted. I’ve just had one of those lives that impels me stop and think a bit sometimes, and I wished I had learned to do that a whole lot sooner. Circumspection is a harshly-learned skill for some of us. 🙂

  238. @ Lowlandseer:
    You know–this just gets REALLY confusing!! Since Ware and Grudem seem to be determined that God the Father and Jesus the Son together produce the Holy Spirit, right? Hey–don’t they consider God and Jesus to be masculine? So if that is so then the same sex union produces offspring? Hey, what ARE they saying anyway? YIKES!!

  239. Jamie Carter wrote:

    In his book, true women are stay-at-home moms.

    Which means that never-married women or women who have not been able to bear children or widows or women who were abandoned by their husbands are not true women?

    That is pure, 200 proof foolishness. And I say that as a mother who, for the greater part, stayed home with my children.

  240. Lydia wrote:

    This was the big argument for Driscoll for years. “We can’t know his heart”.

    Oh, Lydia, you don’t have to convince me about Driscoll. I had his number when I heard what he publicly said about Grace’s infidelity. ‘Cad’ is too light a word, but I don’t want to get banned.

    I needed to read this: “Your reasoning sounds compassionate but not to the victims.”
    I can’t imagine what the victims have been through, and some of the descriptions are horrific. And no way do I want to let anyone who is consciously involved at ANY level with abusing others, no.

    But from where I come, these neo-Cal theologians and young pastors may see themselves in a position of authority and power over others, and the others may perceive them in that way, to their doom;
    but I think these neo-Cal folk are themselves showing a great deal of human frailty within themselves as evidenced by how they are treating others. People sometimes do terrible things and ‘they know not what they do’, and I think, as Church, we can’t forget that, even though our first response is anger and rage and wanting to physically, legally, stop them from what they are doing to innocent people.

    At some point, the abusers were themselves ‘victims’ of a sort, and the cycle of acting out that abuse repeats and repeats, sometimes for generations, UNTIL it comes up against the Cross.

  241. Christiane wrote:

    looking for some reason WHY the bizarre attack on the Trinity.

    The Why is that feminism was making great strides in the 70’s. There were calls to open the ministry to women, even in conservative churches. That is one big reason the PCA was formed. Put that together with the rising tide of abortion-on-demand, and a lot of things became conflated which should have been considered separately. “Feminism” became the reason for EveryBadThingThatHappensInCulture.

    This was the time when Grudem was building his career. This issue became his career. George Knight III actually came up with the idea of Roles in the Trinity and between the sexes in order to foreclose the possibility that it might be thinkable that women could be elders. The new PCA was under a lot of pressure, and, IMO, needed a wedge to pry off more people who were dissatisfied with the PCUSA. And they also needed a defense against the scholarship of evangelical egalitarians.

    This is not a new thing for Grudem. It wasn’t even a new thing when Danvers was issued. I think that both Danvers and Knight’s just-so story of hierarchy within the Trinity were panicked responses to change they viewed as undesirable.

  242. nancyjane wrote:

    Hey, what ARE they saying anyway? YIKES!!

    You are not supposed to actually think through what they are saying. You are supposed to receive their teaching joyfully. Or else Rebellious Feminist.

  243. Gram3 wrote:

    Christiane wrote:
    looking for some reason WHY the bizarre attack on the Trinity.
    The Why is that feminism was making great strides in the 70’s. There were calls to open the ministry to women, even in conservative churches. That is one big reason the PCA was formed. Put that together with the rising tide of abortion-on-demand, and a lot of things became conflated which should have been considered separately. “Feminism” became the reason for EveryBadThingThatHappensInCulture.
    This was the time when Grudem was building his career. This issue became his career. George Knight III actually came up with the idea of Roles in the Trinity and between the sexes in order to foreclose the possibility that it might be thinkable that women could be elders. The new PCA was under a lot of pressure, and, IMO, needed a wedge to pry off more people who were dissatisfied with the PCUSA. And they also needed a defense against the scholarship of evangelical egalitarians.
    This is not a new thing for Grudem. It wasn’t even a new thing when Danvers was issued. I think that both Danvers and Knight’s just-so story of hierarchy within the Trinity were panicked responses to change they viewed as undesirable.

    It was pure opportunism. As I have looked at the history of all this over the years, the part that gets me the most is how effectively they marginalized excellent scholars who did not tow the party line. Thankfully, the Internet changed that.

  244. Lydia wrote:

    It was pure opportunism. As I have looked at the history of all this over the years, the part that gets me the most is how effectively they marginalized excellent scholars who did not tow the party line. Thankfully, the Internet changed that.

    Yes, they no longer control the narrative.

  245. Lydia wrote:

    That could be your ministry to abusers. Personally, I think they get enough of a pass and victims are often left out in the cold.

    Lydia wrote:

    @ Christiane:

    That could be your ministry to abusers. Personally, I think they get enough of a pass and victims are often left out in the cold.

    YES, but if at some point the abusers were themselves abused (or grew up witnessing abuse), then they WERE left out in the cold, and the cycle continues. It is said that the Church is a hospital. And victims come to the Church for sanctuary from what this world has done to them. But it is also said that the Church is a hospital for sinners. Those who follow Christ not only bandage the wounds of victims, they also disarm the abuser.

  246. Christiane wrote:

    YES, but if at some point the abusers were themselves abused (or grew up witnessing abuse), then they WERE left out in the cold, and the cycle continues. It is said that the Church is a hospital. And victims come to the Church for sanctuary from what this world has done to them. But it is also said that the Church is a hospital for sinners. Those who follow Christ not only bandage the wounds of victims, they also disarm the abuser.

    I think there really is a need for a ministry to abusers. It would be quite the challenge since they don’t usually view themselves as such.

    I don’t buy into the church as a hospital for sinners. I heard that platitude constantly in the seeker mega world. Perhaps rehab for recovering patients with the goal of recovery? So what to do when the hospital is run by terminal patients. Your own church had many of these types. and the priority had to be safety. Not “why” they molested or abused. We can figure that out when they are in prison.

    At some point we have to get out of the hospital bed and walk. At some point basic right and wrong has to come into play.

  247. I went out to the House of Driscoll today. Car count was 67, but the most important thing is that Driscoll has hired an off-duty armed Scottsdale police officer for security! Remember, this is an outfit that hasn’t yet had a real church service.

    What a thing to spend money on, IMHO.

  248. mirele wrote:

    I went out to the House of Driscoll today. Car count was 67, but the most important thing is that Driscoll has hired an off-duty armed Scottsdale police officer for security! Remember, this is an outfit that hasn’t yet had a real church service.
    What a thing to spend money on, IMHO.

    You rock!

    Mark Driscoll is a joke. I don’t recall Jesus hiring ‘armed security’.

  249. Christiane wrote:

    YES, but if at some point the abusers were themselves abused (or grew up witnessing abuse), then they WERE left out in the cold, and the cycle continues. It is said that the Church is a hospital. And victims come to the Church for sanctuary from what this world has done to them. But it is also said that the Church is a hospital for sinners. Those who follow Christ not only bandage the wounds of victims, they also disarm the abuser.

    That seems like a very co-dependent answer.

    *Most people who grow up with abuse do not unleash it on others.

    *People are responsible for their actions and for getting help. They are responsible for the consequences of their actions. Many people abuse because they want to.

    *Most in the church are totally untrained to deal with abusers and let them operate with impunity and inflict their destruction.

    Sometimes the ‘wounds of a friend’ – telling someone what a self-centered jerk they are – can be the most loving thing of all.

  250. nancyjane wrote:

    You know–this just gets REALLY confusing!! Since Ware and Grudem seem to be determined that God the Father and Jesus the Son together produce the Holy Spirit, right? Hey–don’t they consider God and Jesus to be masculine? So if that is so then the same sex union produces offspring? Hey, what ARE they saying anyway? YIKES!!

    Yes, there certainly is a weird (cough cough) “undercurrent” there…

  251. Gram3 wrote:

    “Feminism” became the reason for EveryBadThingThatHappensInCulture.

    They present “feminism” as if it is one consistent unanimous block of belief, and then attribute to the group the most radical, fringe beliefs.

  252. Lydia wrote:

    At some point we have to get out of the hospital bed and walk. At some point basic right and wrong has to come into play.

    A molester is either mentally ill or a criminal or both. The church is not the one to investigate, evaluate. diagnose, make prosecutorial decisions or try to influence the jury or the judge. Individuals who happen to practice some particular faith can be the professionals who investigate, evaluate etc, but not the churches themselves. We have seen waaaay too much of what theology leads to when it comes to ideas about the law, about mental health, and about the value or lack of it of repentance.

  253. Jamie Carter wrote:

    I was talking with a guy the other day who said that God genetically designed women to be nurturers and men to be workers … when I pointed out all of us get half of our genes from our moms and half from our dads, he said that it doesn’t work that way. They are so invested in this they have to keep making things up to prop up their teachings.

    I remember reading years ago about an experiment where roosters were injected with the female hormones of chickens and they supposedly started nurturing chicks… I don’t know… but let’s say it’s true- how does that have any bearing at all on one person being put in authority over the other? I still see no justification in that. And further, let’s say the female point of view has a somewhat different lens than the male- is that viewpoint not needed anywhere else in the world than in parenting? I think that if the two sexes truly have a different perspective, then that perspective is meant to work in concert in all areas of life, not just in the home.

  254. Velour wrote:

    Mark Driscoll is a joke. I don’t recall Jesus hiring ‘armed security’.

    Yes he did! The apostles weren’t really apostles, they were all body guards with conceal and carry licenses. Plus, Driscoll needs to feed his poor, broken male ego, thinking he’s really at risk enough to need armed protection – or does he need it to intimidate those who would dare question him.

    Driscoll’s a pathetic joke. It would be funny except that there are still people that actually believe the garbage he spews is Christianity.

  255. This goes a little off-topic but there’s an interesting story on The Daily Beast about the cult of Shintoism that many of the Japanese political figures belong to http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/10/does-this-religious-cult-run-japan.html

    I found these quotes interesting, in that this is group of completely non-Christian origin:

    Broadly speaking, Shinto is a polytheistic and animist religion native to Japan. The state-sponsored Shintoism promulgated here before and during World War II also elevated the Emperor to the status of a God and insisted that the Japanese were a divine race –– the Yamato; with all other races considered inferior.

    The current cult’s goals: gut Japan’s post-war pacifist constitution, end sexual equality, get rid of foreigners, void pesky “human rights” laws, and return Japan to its Imperial Glory.

    I.e., the subjugation of women is not a Christian virtue. It grows out of the fallen nature of mankind.

  256. JeffT wrote:

    Driscoll needs to feed his poor, broken male ego, thinking he’s really at risk enough to need armed protection – or does he need it to intimidate those who would dare question him.

    Spot on.

  257. siteseer wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    “Feminism” became the reason for EveryBadThingThatHappensInCulture.
    They present “feminism” as if it is one consistent unanimous block of belief, and then attribute to the group the most radical, fringe beliefs.

    I hope that the ingrates who decry the advances made for women will have all of the women in their families (and if they’re a woman themselves who espouses Comp nonsense) forfeit their right to vote.

    I grew up with elderly women in my family who told us stories about what it was like to be in university and graduate school and not have the right to vote. They worked on getting women’s vote (19th Amendment to U.S. Constitution).

  258. @ Lowlandseer:
    I don’t understand how they make leap from ESS to husband wife relationship in complementarian marriage. It becomes an unprovable theory. This is sad, and it makes me want to go a direction my fundamental relations took decades ago. There becomes a time to separate is what they would say. And I hate this because I don’t consider myself a fundamentalist. I am mostly a nice person and fundamentalists have historically been mean spirited.

  259. @ Christiane:

    re: Grudem, question of illness influencing his reasoning: “no one in their right mind would come at the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity so aggressively”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    they would if they were scared enough.

    they would if their career, income, and reputation (as well as acquired power and personal significance) were staked on it.

    (to the degree that ego is entwined with all this, all the moreso)

    it doesn’t take an in-depth reading of the responses coming from Ware, Grudem, Mohler, Burke, etc. to pick up on a hysterical, nervous and scared element.

  260. okrapod wrote:

    A molester is either mentally ill or a criminal or both.

    Actually many predators are not mentally ill. Dr. Anna Salter, Harvard trained and the author of Predators, has studied them.

    Many of them are sexually attracted to children. Additionally, Dr. Salter said that many predators were not sexually abused as children and that is a myth. Predators are highly manipulative and in research in prison when they’ve told their stories they were later told that they would be given lie detector tests. Guess what? The inmates recanted their stories of an abused childhood.

    Here is Dr. Salter’s interview (5-parts) on Tier Talk, a professional organization for the corrections/prisons industry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRtccELtlJw

  261. @ Lydia:

    “It was pure opportunism. As I have looked at the history of all this over the years, the part that gets me the most is how effectively they marginalized excellent scholars who did not tow the party line.”
    +++++++++++

    another story here — a comprehensive, cohesive history.

    but perhaps this already exists.

  262. siteseer wrote:

    I remember reading years ago about an experiment where roosters were injected with the female hormones of chickens and they supposedly started nurturing chicks…

    (Snort!). I’m surprised some “religious” circles didn’t take that and run with it as a theory on how to “change” homosexual humans.

  263. Nancy2 wrote:

    The airbags in the car did not deploy. Why didn’t she sue the auto maker and/or the company that made the airbags?

    Maybe the airbags were not faulty. Maybe the collision did not happen at a high enough speed for them to deploy.

    But it’s a great question, since she also didn’t sue the medical practitioners who, in the judge’s opinion, made her condition worse. She only went after the other driver.

  264. Gram3 wrote:

    “Feminism” became the reason for EveryBadThingThatHappensInCulture.

    I actually think that, in some minds, feminism replaced socialism as the great and terrible thing that was out to destroy America by dismantling the family. Would you agree?

    Either way, the mentality reminds me of “The Blob,” starring Steve McQueen:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUsyXQ8Wrs

  265. Christiane wrote:

    But it is also said that the Church is a hospital for sinners.

    I was once sitting with an ER patient when a guy was brought in by police. Someone had called 9-1-1 to report a suspicious trespasser, who ran from police, and the police injured the man’s ankle when they tackled him.

    The suspect was not cooperative in the ER, and it was beyond exciting for us to be separated from him by one thin curtain. ER staff examined and bandaged the ankle. But when they brought the suspect a nice heavy pair of wooden crutches, the police said, “Oh, no-no-no, we’ll take those for him.” Because the man could easily have swung a crutch at somebody’s head. The police pushed the man’s wheelchair and carried his crutches.

    So yeah, the church is a hospital for sinners, but some of the patients pose a danger to others.

  266. Friend wrote:

    So yeah, the church is a hospital for sinners, but some of the patients pose a danger to others.

    Too bad there is not a way to register spiritual offenders so that they would show up on background checks.

  267. Friend wrote:

    She only went after the other driver.

    There were other members of her family involved in the crash. They settled out of court with the driver. That’s curious.

  268. Mar wrote:

    My mother never wore makeup and she was a pretty woman. It was a cultural thing because it was associated with worldliness. It doesn’t matter to me, but I tell my female friends who feel bad for not being made up that they look fine without the makeup. Also in some jobs, particularly if you have to work in a clean room, makeup is taboo because the makeup flakes off particles which increases risk of lack of sterility.

    For whatever reason, this reminds me of some of the “modesty” talk complementarians and fundamentalists promote.

    They tell women to cover up, because how they look can turn a guy on, so it’s supposedly a woman’s responsibility to dress modestly or look modest.

    I’ve noticed that when I think I look great – I’m dressed snazzy, every hair in place, full make-up, guys seldom cat-call me or flirt.

    On occasions I’ve been out in hardly any make-up, my hair is in a sloppy pony tail, and I’m in torn off and frayed jean shorts, (and I think I look TERRIBLE), that is when a lot of guys would whistle at me, flirt, ask for my number, etc.

    Which also in turn tells me that all that “modesty” stuff complementarians promote is subjective. When I think I look like a total bum, THAT is when many men find me attractive and “hit” on me, but when I think I look like a fashion plate, not many approach me or flirt.

  269. @ Daisy:

    P.S. to Mar – I didn’t mean to say YOU were promoting modesty stuff, only something about your post, some phrase or something you used, jogged my memory and caused me to think of that. 🙂

  270. mirele wrote:

    There were other members of her family involved in the crash. They settled out of court with the driver. That’s curious.

    It is indeed… an out-of-court settlement is different from saying “we weren’t hurt, so we’re not suing.” This makes me think the Kassians all sat with a lawyer and determined the strengths and weaknesses of cases against various parties.

  271. @ Daisy:
    Hey, I come from fundamentalism. Don’t hold it against me. I thought ” Jezebel eyes” when I saw.a picture of Mary Kassian. I know this isn’t a nice thought, but it has more to do with her character than her heavy or not tastefully done makeup. I live in the South where makeup on women is the standard. Tammy Faye really put her makeup heavy and you know because she was somewhat a nice person it didn’t matter to me.

  272. Jamie Carter wrote:

    I was talking with a guy the other day who said that God genetically designed women to be nurturers and men to be workers …

    I don’t fit that at all. I’ve never felt comfortable around babies and children and never cared if I had any of my own or not.

    And there is a pretty significant chunk of what are called CF (“Child Free”) women out there who are either like I am, or flatly admit to strongly disliking children and have no interest at all in having one.

    (Some CF are okay with kids and like them, and some even have kid-related jobs, such as school teacher, but don’t want one).

    Time magazine did a big article a few years ago about how more and more women are choosing not to have children.

    Child-free: why women who choose not to have kids are given such a hard time
    http://theconversation.com/child-free-why-women-who-choose-not-to-have-kids-are-given-such-a-hard-time-58068

    Instead, it’s the degraded state and overinflated expectations of motherhood most are not keen on. And, of course, some women simply want a different kind of life.

    Several recent studies point to an increased social acceptance of women who choose to remain child-free in societies with greater gender parity.

    …The experiences of women who choose not to have children play a key part in understanding how our choices as women have the power to define who we are.

  273. Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    It would be interesting to see the response of the male hierarchy if one of these women ever steps off the plantation so to speak, (we may soon see that with Aimee Byrd as she seems to be seeing the contradictions inherent in the doctrine espoused by that hierarchy). My hope is that they will be gentle with her, but judging by how this group treats others (think Village Church) I have my doubts

    Someone on this thread, or an older one, was saying they don’t think Byrd will ever leave complementarianism. I don’t know.

    I feel kind of sorry for her. It had to be jarring, or a slap in the face to her, to see and experience that complementarianism does NOT work the way comps say it does.

    You know, complementarians say how they greatly respect women, they believe men should protect women, etc, –

    But the moment she offered some fair, sober criticism of some of the kookier aspects of complementarianism on her blog, the male comps either ignored her or told her she was a “thin comp.”

    Complementarianism is hot air. They SAY they respect women, but really, when you get down to it, 98% of them do not. Their actions don’t back their propaganda.
    I think Ms. Byrd saw glimmers of that recently with the responses (or non-responses) by comps to her blog posts about the ESS controversy.

  274. Lowlandseer wrote:

    But when I read passages like the one below from Dr. Grudem’s wildly popular Systematic Theology I can barely keep my head from spinning.
    The husband’s role is parallel to God the Father and the wife’s role is parallel to that of God the Son. … And, although it is not explicitly mentioned in Scripture, the gift of children within marriage, coming from both the father and the mother, and subject to the authority of both father and mother is analogous to the relationship of the Holy Spirit to the Father and Son in the Trinity. (pp. 256-257)

    And none of that complementarian thinking means anything to single, childless people. Complemetnarians are way too hung up on marriage.

  275. Nancy2 wrote:

    (Snort!). I’m surprised some “religious” circles didn’t take that and run with it as a theory on how to “change” homosexual humans.

    It’s all been done before. Read what they did to Alan Turing (a brilliant computer scientist before there even was such a thing) after being arrested for a gay liaison in the early 1950s UK. It’s horrific. Pssst! Don’t tell Michelle Bachman or Denny Burk, they’d be more than happy to repeat the horrors of the past if it was within their power.

  276. @ Daisy:
    I agree. It also implies that we are not whole people unless we are married with children. The entire thing is just foolish. I’d respect Grudem more if he just said that he believed in patriarchy and stopped trying to justify it.

  277. @ Daisy:
    I know. I am not a fundamentalist, but the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree, and my parents would make comments about women and makeup and they were very good people. They were also against oral contraception and divorced people remarrying. I could go on. So I catch myself plenty when I am judgmental including with Ms. Kassian awful makeup. But in her case what is outside reflects her personality.

  278. Velour wrote:

    I hope that the ingrates who decry the advances made for women will have all of the women in their families (and if they’re a woman themselves who espouses Comp nonsense) forfeit their right to vote.

    And own property in their own names, and inherit in their own names, and enter advanced professional study programs, etc. And all males should forego any benefits they enjoy due to the efforts of women who stepped outside their Biblical roles. But, of course, this is about capturing the benefits of women’s minds while posturing against women using their minds. And, no, we are not fooled by disclaimers about “intelligent submission” and fake women’s studies “scholars.”

  279. mirele wrote:

    I went out to the House of Driscoll today. Car count was 67, but the most important thing is that Driscoll has hired an off-duty armed Scottsdale police officer for security! Remember, this is an outfit that hasn’t yet had a real church service.

    What a thing to spend money on, IMHO.

    Tripped over info about Perry Noble’s support of Mark Driscoll’s new effort. It’s from June 16, which suddenly feels like a lifetime ago:

    “Despite his troubles, Driscoll has received support from fellow clergymen — South Carolina-based megachurch Pastor Perry Noble being one of the most vocal. In early February, Noble took on critics of the ex-Mars Hill pastor who felt that he wasn’t ready to lead another congregation.”

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/mark-driscolls-trinity-church-gaining-momentum-ahead-of-public-summer-launch-165291/

  280. Jamie Carter wrote:

    The point of his blog post is that moms shouldn’t have jobs and working women shouldn’t have kids: https://wordweld.wordpress.com/2016/07/08/mom-make-up-your-mind/
    In his book, true women are stay-at-home moms.

    I am sorry to be a broken record, but. He and guys like that can argue that all he likes, but the fact is that the culture has already shifted.

    Even a lot of Christian women are not marrying, delaying it, and/or choosing not to have children.

  281. Gram3 wrote:

    Jamie Carter wrote:
    In his book, true women are stay-at-home moms.
    ———–
    (Gram 3 replied)
    Which means that never-married women or women who have not been able to bear children or widows or women who were abandoned by their husbands are not true women?
    That is pure, 200 proof foolishness. And I say that as a mother who, for the greater part, stayed home with my children.

    One other observation I wanted to make about this.
    These types of guys often assume that women such as me, who never marry or have kids, intentionally chose to be that way. Not so.

    I was expecting and wanting to marry, but I never met the right guy. As to having children, I didn’t care either way if I had any kids or not, but I did want to marry.

    These guys promoting these views live in very “black and white” terms. He would probably assume that I hate marriage, I hate traditional morality, or I intentionally put off marriage to chase a career – none of that is true. G

    Guys like him don’t seem to factor in that not everyone in life neatly fits into their worldviews or boxes.

    And if they do, on those rare occasions, they fumble around in embarassment and, they toss out the dreaded, “God called you to be single” line. No, God did not call me to be single.

    And singleness is not a gift if you wanted to be married. Christians need to drop that line (“singleness is a gift / calling!”) from their arsenal of talking points.

    (It’s fine, I guess for singles who are constantly happy with being single and who never wanted marriage, but lines like that are grating to the rest of us.)

  282. Friend wrote:

    I actually think that, in some minds, feminism replaced socialism as the great and terrible thing that was out to destroy America by dismantling the family. Would you agree?

    I don’t know. It might make for interesting discussion on the ODP. Feminism is a huge category which includes things that I find abhorrent, but in Female Subordinationist thinking, it is their go-to thoughtstopper and all are guilty of everything. Also they accuse mutualists of “capitulating to culture” or “blurring the lines of gender” or “abandoning the authority of the Bible” and so on. None of these are true necessarily, but truth is not the point.

  283. Friend wrote:

    “Despite his troubles, Driscoll has received support from fellow clergymen — South Carolina-based megachurch Pastor Perry Noble being one of the most vocal. In early February, Noble took on critics of the ex-Mars Hill pastor who felt that he wasn’t ready to lead another congregation.”

    Birds of a feather flock together…

  284. Gram3 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I hope that the ingrates who decry the advances made for women will have all of the women in their families (and if they’re a woman themselves who espouses Comp nonsense) forfeit their right to vote.
    And own property in their own names, and inherit in their own names, and enter advanced professional study programs, etc. And all males should forego any benefits they enjoy due to the efforts of women who stepped outside their Biblical roles. But, of course, this is about capturing the benefits of women’s minds while posturing against women using their minds. And, no, we are not fooled by disclaimers about “intelligent submission” and fake women’s studies “scholars.”

    So true.

    I’ll tweet Mary Kassian and ask her when she plans to forfeit her right to vote.

  285. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    “It was pure opportunism. As I have looked at the history of all this over the years, the part that gets me the most is how effectively they marginalized excellent scholars who did not tow the party line.”
    +++++++++++
    another story here — a comprehensive, cohesive history.
    but perhaps this already exists.

    I think so, too. But sadly a lot of their stuff was pre Internet and would require a periodical search if we knew the names of whatever journal!. CBE might have resources. I have forgotten many of the names. Some have passed away. I do remember thinking it interesting that several were at Gordon Conwell around the 70’s-80’s and some were women scholars.

  286. Daisy wrote:

    I am sorry to be a broken record, but. He and guys like that can argue that all he likes, but the fact is that the culture has already shifted.

    Even a lot of Christian women are not marrying, delaying it, and/or choosing not to have children.

    It wasn’t even like that 75+ years ago. My grandma was separated and ended up getting divorced from my grandfather, but she still had three little kids to raise. On a farm. She would put the oldest, my aunt Emma, in charge of the two younger ones (my dad and my uncle), plow a few rows, and then check on the kids. That’s just what you did circa 1938 in Depression era eastern Oklahoma. And my mother’s stepmother also worked as a secretary in an office in the 1950s–there were five kids in the family and money was tight.

    The reality is that most women, throughout time, have worked. If they lived rural lives, they worked on the farm, doing just about everything the men did. If they held down outside jobs, the jobs were open to women were limited and low-paying. What’s changed is that better-paying jobs are open to women and there’s not so much pressure to get married because you’re barely making it on your own tiny paycheck.

  287. mirele wrote:

    I went out to the House of Driscoll today. Car count was 67, but the most important thing is that Driscoll has hired an off-duty armed Scottsdale police officer for security! Remember, this is an outfit that hasn’t yet had a real church service.
    What a thing to spend money on, IMHO.

    You gotta get with the times. Hiring official security is a sign he has arrived, is important and protected. All mega churches have them. Yes, I know it isn’t a mega church yet but it has to appear it is going to be one. Perception is everything.

    Cops love this duty. To them it is easy extra money that pays better hourly than their actual jobs. They have told me they would rather do this than high school football games where there are fights, drugs, etc.

    67 cars is going backwards but it is July. Dead month for church, tithes, etc.

  288. mirele wrote:

    What’s changed is that better-paying jobs are open to women and there’s not so much pressure to get married because you’re barely making it on your own tiny paycheck.

    And there is not as much pressure to stay married when things get bad because more women can support themselves.

  289. mirele wrote:

    Driscoll has hired an off-duty armed Scottsdale police officer for security!

    I just called the Scottsdale, AZ police department and I spoke to an officer. I asked them about their policy, since many employers don’t permit their employees to work for someone else. He said that Scottsdale PD does permit their off-duty police officers to be hired for security purposes, traffic control, visiting dignitaries and it’s common.

  290. A few more of my thought on Ms. Mary. My husband has his Master’s and PhD. from Texas A&M. My son has his Masters from there also. My nephew by marriage has him M-Div. To put Mary in any league with these men is a slap in the face. I know these are men, but what they had to go thru to get their degrees, was pretty hard. I watched my son struggle to get his degrees, and This course work wouldn’t have been any different if it were a female taking the same courses. Their is no question to me about being a woman of God. It comes from within me, not from without. I dress pretty conservatively. Always have. I wore makeup when I was in the work force, but not too often since I’m no longer working. I never wore high heels because of bad knees and now bad feet. But what I do or don’t wear doesn’t make me any less a Woman of God. It just means I live a very casual life style, plus I live life in a wheelchair. Hard for me wear dresses and be comfortable. I’m not about to judge another Godly woman because she wears different clothes or makeup or shoes than I do. That is totally between God and her. There are hundreds of thousands of Godly women just like me out in the real world. We don’t need someone like Ms. Mary telling us how to one.

  291. Gram3 wrote:

    truth is not the point.

    Agreed.

    (And socialism contains abhorrent things, but truth was not the point in much of the fear-mongering about it in past decades.)

  292. @ Lydia:

    “…how effectively they marginalized excellent scholars who did not tow the party line”
    +++++++++++++

    if i were to take this research project on, who are the “they”?

    does this event / set of circumstances have a catch-all name? Conservative Resurgence pertains to SBC only, correct?

  293. @ Harley:

    Wonderful post about the men in your family who did real scholarship for their degrees as well as your insights about what constitutes a godly woman, without Mary Ka$$ian’$ edicts.

  294. Lydia wrote:

    You gotta get with the times. Hiring official security is a sign he has arrived, is important and protected. All mega churches have them. Yes, I know it isn’t a mega church yet but it has to appear it is going to be one. Perception is everything.

    Cops love this duty. To them it is easy extra money that pays better hourly than their actual jobs. They have told me they would rather do this than high school football games where there are fights, drugs, etc.

    67 cars is going backwards but it is July. Dead month for church, tithes, etc.

    Hopefully he will get with the times and load up on all the amenities, top end Ricarro office chairs at $3,800 a pop, big staff, etc. The more overhead Driscoll acquires the less time will he will have to get this latest venture into the black before investors pull the plug. As all here likely agree this is about Driscoll Inc, not for God. Driscoll doesn’t strike me as particularly business savvy and my hope is he and his lackeys don’t understand the initial business success at Mars Hill and will think they can approach this startup with all the pay and perks they had at Driscoll’s last enterprise before it went bust.

    I agree that July is normally a down month but the numbers Mirele is reporting are a good trend that hopefully continues. So note to Driscoll et al, spend spend spend.

  295. Mark wrote:

    I don’t understand how they make leap from ESS to husband wife relationship in complementarian marriage

    The more I think about it, I don’t think the comps are concerned with mapping the Trinity to male-female marriages.

    I think their interest in ESS is in utilizing it to “prove” to Christian women that being perpetually lower in role is okay and not an insult, because (supposedly) Jesus is indefinitely lower in role to the Father, still equal in worth, so Christian women should be A-OK with the sexism.

  296. Daisy wrote:

    Something about your post touched on one of the things that bothers me about complementarianism, regardless of who is pitching it.
    This idea by so many complementarians that while, sure, some branches of complementarianism are “far out there,” nuts, and crazy, but at its heart, when taught or understood properly and kept in proper bounds, complementarianism is really quite biblical, helpful, and wonderful.

    Yeah, I don’t agree with complementarianism at all. None of it, in the way it’s taught, whereby women are believed to be made by God to occupy “separate but equal” roles. It’s hogwash, to put it nicely. That’s why I compare this new version of Complementarianism put forth by Aimee Byrd & Co., where they remove the Danver’s Statement and the ESS, to taking the Polygamy out of Mormonism, like it makes it acceptable.

    Or, we could say, removing the ESS and the Danver’s Statement, while maintaining the legitimacy of Complementarianism, is like putting lipstick on a pig.

    Anyone that employs Complementarianism as one of their “Gospel Pillars” has got their Gospel all wrong. Like, fundamentally wrong. Like, not in the same ballpark wrong.

    There are two catagories I always look at first in identifying false religions and false forms of Christianity: what is taught about food (and drink) and what is taught about women. And then I go from there.

  297. Nancy2 wrote:

    Hot off the presses:
    http://www.christiantimes.com/article/perry-noble-fired-as-pastor-of-newspring-church-ive-come-to-depend-on-alcohol-instead-of-jesus-says-noble/58689.htm

    How much time will he have to spend in a treatment facility before being proclaimed ready to re-enter ministry?

    It is interesting that with the corruption I read about with Noble, something like this is what it takes to bring down one the gospel boys. Corruption, abuse, bad theology, and they keep chugging along, sex or in this case alcohol and the “Elders” finally see something they cannot abide while simultaneously minimizing it as “unfortunate choices”.

  298. Harley wrote:

    There are hundreds of thousands of Godly women just like me out in the real world. We don’t need someone like Ms. Mary telling us how to one.

    Are you absolutely certain you don’t need Mrs Kassian’s input on your wardrobe? She’s delighted to tell you how to dress and why, such as…
    Dos and Don’t For Your Next Wardrobe Crisis by M. Kassian
    http://girlsgonewise.com/dos-and-donts-for-your-next-wardrobe-crisis/

    She also has this condescending page on her blog (which I think I linked to in a previous thread, or earlier in this one??)
    “FEMALE BEAUTY MATTERS”

    I also caught a glimpse of some blog post she has with a title of something like,

    “Feminism: Do I Have a Right To Seek Rights”

    or “Feminism: do I have a Right to have Rights”

    I clicked out of the page before I could get a better look at the title.

  299. @ Daisy:

    P.S. to that…..
    And I think complementarians are trying to prove to Christian women (via the ESS stuff) that being submissive is a life- long thing, it’s in women’s natures, because it’s Christ’s nature from eternity past and into eternity future.

    Prior to this ESS stuff by comps, egalitarians were pointing out Jesus’ submissiveness was temporary only while he was in human form on earth 2,000 years ago – or similar type points (I may be getting their side wrong, or explaining it wrong).

    The point is, egalitarians were arguing in such a way that complementarians felt the need to come up with a stronger argument that demonstrated that women were born to be submissive, and will always be submissive, forever and ever.

    They had to show that the roles were permanent and based on inherent traits, not just passing things, and shouldn’t be based on skill or talent, etc.

    I do remember that much from reading some egalitarian books and web pages years ago.

  300. Bill M wrote:

    The unexpected part was how Kassian debased herself in front of the judge for such a measly sum of money. Apparently the NEO-Cal glitterati sell their principles at bargain prices.

    AKA “Not just a crook, but a CHEAP crook”?

  301. Tina wrote:

    The ladies’ group I am part of studied the DeMoss book. One of the women commented that the more she read it, the more impatient she got with DeMoss.

    I really don’t believe Nancy Leigh DeMoss is a very likeable person. I think she shields herself behind a barrier in which she pretends to be someone who is connected to the Body of Christ, but in reality, she’s living within her own reality, separate and apart from the under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. The evidence isn’t there for me. And from her lofty position, she likes to prescribe Christian living to the masses through her radio broadcasts and True Woman mumbo jumbo. It’s all a business for her, just like it’s all business for Mary Kassian. A True Woman is not a Complementarian. And who should respect someone for running, basically, a sham operation? Let’s face it: Complementarianism is bogus and it’s false. And those who promote it as Gospel Truth, or the ingredient that goes into the making of a True Woman, are bogus too. There is no possible way these people are following the Spirit in teaching and promoting this stuff. No way. Complementarianism is not compliant with the Gospel, so those trying to sell this stuff are basically running “Christian” Black Markets.

  302. Bill M wrote:

    Driscoll doesn’t strike me as particularly business savvy and my hope is he and his lackeys don’t understand the initial business success at Mars Hill and will think they can approach this startup with all the pay and perks they had at Driscoll’s last enterprise before it went bust.

    Like all the Silicon Valley guys during the dot-com bubble of the Nineties.
    Pay and Perks (and more Perks) first — all with Other People’s Money.
    (They even used to compete for “highest burn rate”, i.e. who could burn through the investors’ money the fastest.)

  303. Friend wrote:

    “Despite his troubles, Driscoll has received support from fellow clergymen — South Carolina-based megachurch Pastor Perry Noble being one of the most vocal. In early February, Noble took on critics of the ex-Mars Hill pastor who felt that he wasn’t ready to lead another congregation.”

    “Five kings rulee o’er the Amorite,
    Mighty as fear and old as night;
    Swathed with unguent and gold and jewel,
    Waxed they merry and fat and cruel.
    Zedek of Salem, a terror and glory,
    Whose face was hid while his robes were gory;
    And Hoham of Hebron, whose loathly face is
    Heavy and dark o’er the ruin of races;
    And Piram of Jarmuth, drunk with strange wine,
    Who dreamed he had fashioned all stars that shine;
    And Debir of Eglon wild, without pity,
    Who raged like a plague in the midst of his city;
    And Japhia of Lachish, a fire that flameth,
    Who did in the daylight what no man nameth.

    These five kings said one to another,
    ‘King unto king o’er the world is brother…'”
    — G.K.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”

  304. Daisy wrote:

    And none of that complementarian thinking means anything to single, childless people. Complemetnarians are way too hung up on marriage.

    Because Marriage is how you Perpetuate the Patriarch’s Seed.
    Remember the 200-year Dynastic Plans (including Estates & “Houseservants”).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyh9w_AO3YE

  305. Lydia wrote:

    I don’t buy into the church as a hospital for sinners. I heard that platitude constantly in the seeker mega world. Perhaps rehab for recovering patients with the goal of recovery? So what to do when the hospital is run by terminal patients. Your own church had many of these types. and the priority had to be safety. Not “why” they molested or abused. We can figure that out when they are in prison.

    At some point we have to get out of the hospital bed and walk. At some point basic right and wrong has to come into play.

    Hi Lydia,
    the concept of the Church as a ‘hospital’ for sinners is very old in the Church. And no one is saying ‘let these guys off the hook and let them continue to injure people unopposed, no’,
    but at some point, we stand in recognition of who we are in the story of the Pharisee and the Publican. And we stand in witness to which of the two received God’s approval. And there, we are also who are in need of God’s mercy, Lydia. There are no excuses for people who hurt innocents, but sometimes we must acknowledge the truth of ‘hurting people hurt people’ and at some point, there comes the prayer: “God have mercy on all of us together”.

    Are there people who injure innocents who ‘do not know what they do’? And are there those in the Church who understand the answer to that involves a different approach if we would follow Our Lord?

    No excuses. That is not what ‘the Church’ offers people who injure others or themselves. The Church offers something far more healing.

  306. Christiane wrote:

    The Church offers something far more healing.

    ‘THE CHURCH AS HOPITAL’ … not a new-age concept:

    ““For he who endeavours to amend the faults of human weakness ought to bear this very weakness on his own shoulders, let it weigh upon himself, not cast it off.
    For we read that the Shepherd in the Gospel (Luke 15:5) carried the weary sheep, and did not cast it off.

    And Solomon says: “Be not overmuch righteous;” (Ecclesiastes 7:17) for restraint should temper righteousness.

    For how shall he offer himself to you for healing whom you despise, who thinks that he will be an object of contempt, not of compassion, to his physician?

    Therefore had the Lord Jesus compassion upon us in order to call us to Himself, not frighten us away. He came in meekness, He came in humility, and so He said:
    “Come unto Me, all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I will refresh you.” (Matthew 11:28)
    So, then, the Lord Jesus refreshes, and does not shut out nor cast off, and fitly chose such disciples as should be interpreters of the Lord’s will, as should gather together and not drive away the people of God.

    Whence it is clear that they are not to be counted among the disciples of Christ, who think that harsh and proud opinions should be followed rather than such as are gentle and meek;
    persons who, while they themselves seek God’s mercy, deny it to others . . .”

    St. Ambrose (340-379 A.D.),
    a Father and Doctor of the Church

  307. Paula Rice wrote:

    really don’t believe Nancy Leigh DeMoss is a very likeable person.

    I think of Nancy as a female version of Bill Gothard. Super creepy. Surrounded by ‘yes-people’. Insular. When she got engaged and married not too long ago, people around the world (myself included) received emails and snail mail asking for donations for her ministry. Tacky. A woman who is an insurance heiress is hammering the rest of us for money?

  308. Daisy wrote:

    I also caught a glimpse of some blog post she has with a title of something like,
    “Feminism: Do I Have a Right To Seek Rights”

    I tweeted Mary Ka$$ian today and I asked her if she planned to give up her right to vote and other rights, since she complained about womens’ rights?

    Women in my family in the U.S. and other countries (like Canada where Mary lived) worked very hard, put up with a lot of grief, to get basic rights for women – like the right to vote. I grew up hearing old ladies in my family tell us stories about what it was like to be in graduate school in university and not have the right to vote.

    Mary is an ingrate.

  309. Daisy wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    P.S. to Mar – I didn’t mean to say YOU were promoting modesty stuff, only something about your post, some phrase or something you used, jogged my memory and caused me to think of that.

    Sorry for my judgmentalism. I don’t care how a woman dresses. I care about how they act. I do have some cultural baggage and every so often it makes its face shown. I have had friends who have had bad reactions to cosmetics and then they change foundation or some other component and the same thing happens. It just seems a waste of time and money for that look. But enough of this. It is not just fundamentalists but Roman Catholics who have had cultural concerns with makeup. I was wondering where all this started.

  310. Paula Rice wrote:

    Complementarianism is bogus and it’s false.

    In my book, Complementarianism promotes an idea that places men closer to God than women. Women are a degree removed, more distant from God than men. It promotes the husband being the God ordained prophet, priest, and king of the home and family, while the wife is a notch below him, beneath him.
    Single women and widows …… do you even exist in the comp world?

  311. Friend wrote:

    I was once sitting with an ER patient when a guy was brought in by police.

    I’ve seen the police bring people into the ER too. And these people are kept restrained on gurneys, yes. Here is something I witnessed that I wrote about in the Discussion Section:

    ‘I spent the night some years ago in the ER with my father who was waiting for a bed to open so that he could be admitted. On a gurney, across from us, was a man who was mentally ill, perhaps schizophrenic, but certainly dillusional. I remember how it was that people would walk by him and ignore him EXCEPT there came a minister (had a Scottish brogue) who stopped and stood by him for a time and listened to the man’s rantings patiently. But then, the minister laid his hand on the man’s shoulder and prayed for him, it seemed for quite a while. And the poor man quieted. Shortly after, the man slept for a while. I will never forget this as an example of a Christian work of mercy for someone the police had brought to the ER who had no home and no one else to help him. I would say if you spend the night in any ER, you find God’s Presence there, yes.’

  312. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Like all the Silicon Valley guys during the dot-com bubble of the Nineties.
    Pay and Perks (and more Perks) first — all with Other People’s Money.
    (They even used to compete for “highest burn rate”, i.e. who could burn through the investors’ money the fastest.)

    That is exactly what I was thinking of. I buy a lot of used computer equipment to refurb and back in 2000/2001 I was going through one defunct venture and found everything was gold plated. There was one room full of 70 Ricarro office chairs, they should have been using the $59.95 specials at the local Staples or Office Max. FYI you would likely recognize the name of the failed startup.

    What I find interesting is the mindset of those empire builders of the dot com bust is so similar to that of the gospel gliteratti. It wasn’t about providing a service but about making it BIG TIME.

  313. Mark wrote:

    So I catch myself plenty when I am judgmental including with Ms. Kassian awful makeup. But in her case what is outside reflects her personality.

    Wait, what’s wrong with her makeup? I don’t see that it’s particularly terrible but I didn’t watch all the videos. (I hate her hair in the second one but that’s a personal choice).

  314. Bill M wrote:

    How much time will he have to spend in a treatment facility before being proclaimed ready to re-enter ministry?

    Whatcha wanna bet, he’ll come back faster than MD did?!!

  315. Friend wrote:

    early February, Noble took on critics of the ex-Mars Hill pastor who felt that he wasn’t ready to lead another congregation.

    Birds of a feather right?

    Perry noble seems to be out on alcoholism with the domestic issues being only rumors.

  316. Nancy2 wrote:

    Bill M wrote:

    How much time will he have to spend in a treatment facility before being proclaimed ready to re-enter ministry?

    Whatcha wanna bet, he’ll come back faster than MD did?!!

    It looks like he was fired for more than just active alcoholism. This is interesting:

    ” Noble had “caused much concern” about his alcohol use, as well as his “posture toward marriage”, and the board members had confronted Noble multiple times in the past about these issues, Duffey explained.”

  317. Nancy2 wrote:

    In my book, Complementarianism promotes an idea that places men closer to God than women. Women are a degree removed, more distant from God than men. It promotes the husband being the God ordained prophet, priest, and king of the home and family, while the wife is a notch below him, beneath him.
    Single women and widows …… do you even exist in the comp world?

    Here’s another point to consider. If complementarianism is true, then women should be accountable to their husbands. At 6:40 this morning I posted a paper I wrote more than a year ago on accountability (the formatting did not survive the copy and paste, but it’s readable). Bottom line is believers are not accountable to each other. Which means that women are not accountable to men. To state that Christians are not accountable to each other has gotten me into some heated discussions. But the Bible seems abundantly clear on this.

  318. @ Mark:

    Maybe I’m confused, but – I was replying to someone with the screen name of “Mar” (no “K” at the end) with a Canadian flag? Or is that you?

  319. Ken F wrote:

    t 6:40 this morning I posted a paper I

    Sorry – I forgot to say that I posted it on the open discussion, not this thread.

  320. Mark wrote:

    Tammy Faye really put her makeup heavy and you know because she was somewhat a nice person it didn’t matter to me.

    A lot of people loved Tammy Faye. And when she died, she was mourned all through the whole Church. My Ukrainian godmother adored her and cried when she died.

  321. Ken F wrote:

    Here’s another point to consider. If complementarianism is true, then women should be accountable to their husbands. At 6:40 this morning I posted a paper I wrote more than a year ago on accountability (the formatting did not survive the copy and paste, but it’s readable). Bottom line is believers are not accountable to each other. Which means that women are not accountable to men. To state that Christians are not accountable to each other has gotten me into some heated discussions. But the Bible seems abundantly clear on this.

    When it’s all said and done, who will we stand before at the Bema Seat of Judgement? I don’t believe my husband will be the one judging me. If there is something that God is leading me to do, and I refuse because my husband says, “No.”, then I will have failed God.

  322. @ Velour:

    How does Kassian feel about girls and women in other nations that don’t have as many rights as American women?

    In other nations, women/girls are not permitted to attend school, are sent off to arranged marriages (sometimes girls to much older men), are sold into sex trafficking, cannot vote, can never leave the house unless accompanied by a male relative, must (or think they have to) commit suicide when their husband dies.

    Is Kassian okay with all that stuff?

    The Bait & Switch of Complementarians
    http://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/bait-switch-complementarians

    Pertinent snippet from that page:

    —–
    By Mimi Haddad

    Many thanks to David Cramer for his blog, posted earlier this week, commending John Piper’s advocacy for the education and the safe return of 276 Nigerian females. Cramer applauds Piper for declaring Christian discipleship gender inclusive, compelling Christians to educate both male and female, based not on the contested passages related to authority (such as 1 Timothy 2:11-15 or 1 Corinthians 14:34-35), but on a broader and perhaps more egalitarian understanding of Christian discipleship as a whole.

    I join David in commending complementarians as they support the education of girls globally. However, there is more to be said. These 276 girls (not to mention the 200 million females missing globally) are never helped by religious teachings (Christian, Muslim, or any other tradition) that devalues females and excludes them from leadership roles over men, whether in the church, the home, or society—because of gender. Ideas have consequences. Though Piper endorses female education, he denies them equal authority because they are female and this places them at great risk, in any corner of the world! To be equal in education but unequal in service is a bait and switch which egalitarians reject as unbiblical.

  323. Christiane wrote:

    ” Noble had “caused much concern” about his alcohol use, as well as his “posture toward marriage”, and the board members had confronted Noble multiple times in the past about these issues, Duffey explained.”

    This could get interesting. Here is what John MacArthur wrote about YRR and alcohol in 2011: https://www.gty.org/Blog/B110809. John MacArthur is also against ESS. Yet he remains closely linked with the YRR crowd and is a featured speaker at T4G conferences. John MacArthur is not likely to let the YRRs drag down his ministry. Now that the YRR wheels are starting to fall off, I am wondering how the non-YRR Calvinists will react.

  324. @ Christiane:
    I am quite familiar with the unending mercy churches pour out on pedophiles, child pornographers and such. They even show up for court and beg the secular judge for a lighter sentence when the poor victim and family sit there.

    I have told the story here before about a friend of mine from college days who is a judge and happens to be an athiest. He asked me why Christians pack out the courtroom in support of such a monster knowing the victim or the victims family is there. Not only that but they will pack courtrooms for a zoning hearing on strip bars or adult bookstores. they want them out of business. it made no sense to him.

    I have been over this argument with the Neo Cals for years. They agree with you as do guys like Matt Chandler at the Village.

    There is a need for ministry to such predators. I don’t agree it is at a church were children and such can be groomed or the perp has to be watched. Of course they can change. But there are some things a person does that should limit their reach on this side of the Jordan. Those who prey on the least of these should never ever be trusted again.

    I am not qualified for that ministry ,obviously.

  325. @ Lea:
    Here comes the fashion police. To each their own. Blue mascara or pink mascara with her blue eyes clashes. This is the second video. In my opinion a brown or beige tone wouldn’t clash as much. In the first video I think her outfit is garish. She is probably in her fifties in this video. It would be better in a late 20 year old. She would look better in a conservative suit. Also wearing turquoise with her blue eyes is too much blue. A better color to highlites her blue eyes, which are pretty, would be to more in the brown, beige, neutral spectrum. This is a critique from this fusion police, and it probably isn’t the best critique. Just my opinion for what it’s worth. Her hair? I don’t know. She would look better with a softer longer cut with layering, and if she is gray underneath possible dye, letting it go gray or white might be pretty.

  326. Bill M wrote:

    Corruption, abuse, bad theology, and they keep chugging along, sex or in this case alcohol and the “Elders” finally see something they cannot abide while simultaneously minimizing it as “unfortunate choices”.

    I once heard a Lakota medicine man say:
    “It’s a strange religion son.”

  327. @ Bill M:
    As to him being a businessman it got me to thinking….

    Early on when he was a lot younger the big draw to Mars Hill was the focus on the Indie scene. It was the gimmick to pull in the 20-30 crowd.

    He traded in his Mickey mouse T and pucca shell necklace for tweed and billed himself as a kindly uncle. This was before the end.

    He is doing the mid century decor theme so what do you think? Ward Clever?

  328. Nancy2 wrote:

    When it’s all said and done, who will we stand before at the Bema Seat of Judgement? I don’t believe my husband will be the one judging me. If there is something that God is leading me to do, and I refuse because my husband says, “No.”, then I will have failed God.

    Your husband will be held accountable before God for how well you rinsed the sudsy bubbles off the glasses and how organized your closets are.

    Well, no, for the closets one, you might be held accountable by God to Mary Kassian.

  329. @ Mark:

    Fashion police indeed! I can’t imagine she’s wearing pink mascara and her outfits aren’t my style but none of it particularly stood out to me.

    Side note because I don’t think you are saying this but others have, but I will say I find the idea that women are bad for wearing makeup as bad as the one that says they must wear it.

  330. Lydia wrote:

    I have told the story here before about a friend of mine from college days who is a judge and happens to be an athiest. He asked me why Christians pack out the courtroom in support of such a monster knowing the victim or the victims family is there. Not only that but they will pack courtrooms for a zoning hearing on strip bars or adult bookstores. they want them out of business. it made no sense to him.

    I hope you let him know it’s puzzling to a lot of Christians, too.

    I’m kind of sort of in the faith (and not – I am not sure what I believe now), but back in the day when I was a True Blue Christian, I didn’t understand the Christians who wanted to treat pedos and such with kid gloves.

    I think a percentage of regulars here (who are Christian) can’t wrap their heads around it, either.

  331. Bill M wrote:

    It is interesting that with the corruption I read about with Noble, something like this is what it takes to bring down one the gospel boys. Corruption, abuse, bad theology, and they keep chugging along, sex or in this case alcohol and the “Elders” finally see something they cannot abide while simultaneously minimizing it as “unfortunate choices”.

    There is more to it. It had to be bad. He is the big draw for that crowd. It’s like when the lead actor in a hit show has to go to rehab. It’s a money thing so it had to be so bad it would backfire if he did not go.

    I doubt if he was drinking single malt scotch in his paneled library alone night after night. He is not the type. There had to be patterns of spectacle. These Mega church pastor types are as insulated as they want to be. Most Pew sitters know nothing about them personally and have very little one on one interaction with them.

  332. Lea wrote:

    Side note because I don’t think you are saying this but others have, but I will say I find the idea that women are bad for wearing makeup as bad as the one that says they must wear it.

    You will have to pry my mascara out of my cold dead hand.

  333. Lydia wrote:

    I have told the story here before about a friend of mine from college days who is a judge and happens to be an athiest. He asked me why Christians pack out the courtroom in support of such a monster knowing the victim or the victims family is there. Not only that but they will pack courtrooms for a zoning hearing on strip bars or adult bookstores. they want them out of business. it made no sense to him.

    Atheist or no, it makes no sense period.

  334. Lydia wrote:

    You will have to pry my mascara out of my cold dead hand.

    I’m more of an eye-liner gal (if I had to pick one thing of make-up I can’t live without).

    The gel or cream eye liners are way darker than the pencil kind and last all day, and sometimes even through showers. I love those.

  335. @ Mark:
    Mary Ka$$ian would love my key ring. It’s brass, and it says, “You’ve come a long way, baby.”

    When I was in the hospital in 1982 because of injuries from a car wreck, was really upset and angry when I came around enough to realize what was going on and everything I wasn’t able to do. My dad told me to just be patient with everything. He said, “You don’t know it, but you’ve already come a long way, baby doll!” Shortly after he said that, he went to a Minit Mart to get some cigarettes. He saw a Virgina Slims ad: buy 2 packs, get the key ring for a dollar. My macho-man dad bought Virgina Slims, just so he could get the key ring for me.
    My car was totaled, but I had a new key ring. I’ve kept my car keys on that key ring ever since!

  336. Daisy wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    This reminds me of workplace abuse, too. When I finally began displaying something vaguely resembling boundaries with my abusive boss, she began gaslighting me, suggesting that I was the problem, and that I was not being a “team player.”

    Team player to an abuser like her meant that I should sit there in silence and just take her mistreatment.
    My sister is the same way: she expect me to sit and take her verbal abuse in silence, but when or if I begin defending myself, she takes on the victim role.

    I see these churches are playing the same, or similar, mind games with people. It’s very victim blaming, refusing to examine themselves and take responsibility for how they mistreat others.

    But, churchy people get to slap Bible labels on it, so it sounds pious, noble, etc.

    Oh my gosh!!! Been there wrt the workplace abuse. Complete with the gaslighting and victim-role appropriation. Don’t get me started!!

  337. Lea wrote:

    @ Mark:
    Fashion police indeed! I can’t imagine she’s wearing pink mascara and her outfits aren’t my style but none of it particularly stood out to me.
    Side note because I don’t think you are saying this but others have, but I will say I find the idea that women are bad for wearing makeup as bad as the one that says they must wear it.

    You know I meant pink or blue eye shadow rather than mascara. Take this from a man. I know what I like.

  338. Daisy wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    You will have to pry my mascara out of my cold dead hand.

    I’m more of an eye-liner gal (if I had to pick one thing of make-up I can’t live without).

    The gel or cream eye liners are way darker than the pencil kind and last all day, and sometimes even through showers. I love those.

    For me, it’s lipstick. I have always had very full lips, whereas my eyes are nothing special (plus I wear glasses), so I don’t bother much with eye stuff, but I must wear lipstick. I feel nekkid if I don’t .

  339. Paula Rice wrote:

    Anyone that employs Complementarianism as one of their “Gospel Pillars” has got their Gospel all wrong. Like, fundamentally wrong. Like, not in the same ballpark wrong.

    In defense of Aimee and some other young Reformed women who hate ESS, their view of Complementarianism comes from a face-value reading of the clobber verses with a bit of tradition and Confessionalism mixed in. It is basically the view that I held for a long, long, time before I was forced to go very deep into the actual text. Like the elder at Bent Tree, before that it was not an issue. It’s hard to consider the alternative if you truly believe this is what God wants.

    I have empathy for her. For the CMBW Crew, I have no empathy whatsoever, with the sole exception of Grudem’s personal health.

  340. Bill M wrote:

    sex or in this case alcohol and the “Elders” finally see something they cannot abide while simultaneously minimizing it as “unfortunate choices”.

    My guess is that the folks at their church liability carrier helped the elders at NewSpring understand they needed to do something about what they no doubt would like to have overlooked.

  341. Lydia wrote:

    Cops love this duty. To them it is easy extra money that pays better hourly than their actual jobs. They have told me they would rather do this than high school football games where there are fights, drugs, etc.

    Oh, I’m not going to begrudge the officer the work. I don’t plan on being a problem for him.

  342. Lydia wrote:

    I am not qualified for that ministry ,obviously.

    Nor am I. But if the churches get involved in hospital chaplaincy and prison chaplaincy then that would be a ministry for those who are.

  343. Mark wrote:

    You know I meant pink or blue eye shadow rather than mascara. Take this from a man. I know what I like.

    Well I wasn’t looking at her with an eye towards attraction so..

    Favorite makeup? I’m with daisy. Love my eyeliner. Usually green.

  344. Christiane wrote:

    healing

    Thank you, Christiane! Yes, indeed, the idea of the Church as a hospital for sinners goes right back to earliest Christian history. It is a venerable tradition in both East and West. Why someone would object to a concept so beautiful is beyond me. Is Our Lord not the Divine Physician? Does He not offer His fathomless Mercy to every single human being, especially those most in need of it? Is this not completely biblical?

  345. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    For me, it’s lipstick. I have always had very full lips, whereas my eyes are nothing special (plus I wear glasses), so I don’t bother much with eye stuff, but I must wear lipstick. I feel nekkid if I don’t .

    You have Angelina Jolie lips that some women pay good money for, getting lip plumpers or whatever they’re called 🙂

    I used to wear eye glasses before I got Lasik eye surgery years ago, so I know how that goes.

  346. @ Mark:

    I do occasionally wear very dark blue eyeshadow if I’m wearing navy. Tends to make my eyes look more blue instead of green. But not light blue frosted which would be quite dated…

  347. Daisy wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Oh my gosh!!! Been there wrt the workplace abuse. Complete with the gaslighting and victim-role appropriation. Don’t get me started!!

    I hear ya. I was there. Had an abusive boss for two years.

    Still have mine. But I’m retiring in a few months…hallelujah!

  348. Daisy wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    For me, it’s lipstick. I have always had very full lips, whereas my eyes are nothing special (plus I wear glasses), so I don’t bother much with eye stuff, but I must wear lipstick. I feel nekkid if I don’t .

    You have Angelina Jolie lips that some women pay good money for, getting lip plumpers or whatever they’re called

    I used to wear eye glasses before I got Lasik eye surgery years ago, so I know how that goes.

    Alas, can’t have LASIK — cornea too thin, they tell me. But at my age, it’s really no biggie.

  349. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    Mary is an ingrate
    And a conceited one, at that.

    Indeed she is Nancy2.

    By the way, does anybody remember what she asked the defendant to pay in the whiplash lawsuit for her inability to do Soap Bubble Submission? (Dishes.)

  350. Lydia wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    Side note because I don’t think you are saying this but others have, but I will say I find the idea that women are bad for wearing makeup as bad as the one that says they must wear it.
    You will have to pry my mascara out of my cold dead hand.

    You gals can have mine. I’m deadly allergic to all of they eye products and I can only wear foundation, blush, and lipstick.

  351. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Why someone would object to a concept so beautiful is beyond me.

    When you invite the newly freed divinely healed pedophile to babysit your kids, then I will listen. In the meantime, I will err on the side of the victims..

  352. @ okrapod:
    Most are. When I was on the board of a crisis center many moons ago, I accompanied some counselors to a prison to observe interviews with pedophiles and rapists. I was as green and ignorant as they come. The pedophiles were so clean cut, erudite and charming and could be your uncle Bob. I was stunned at how many victims they had before they were caught and convicted. It is rare they are divinely healed, for some reason. But the prisons had lots of religious programming. The peds were separated from the murderers and such because it seems even the murderers are disgusted by those who molest children. Go figure.

  353. Ken F wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    ” Noble had “caused much concern” about his alcohol use, as well as his “posture toward marriage”, and the board members had confronted Noble multiple times in the past about these issues, Duffey explained.”

    This could get interesting. Here is what John MacArthur wrote about YRR and alcohol in 2011: https://www.gty.org/Blog/B110809. John MacArthur is also against ESS. Yet he remains closely linked with the YRR crowd and is a featured speaker at T4G conferences. John MacArthur is not likely to let the YRRs drag down his ministry. Now that the YRR wheels are starting to fall off, I am wondering how the non-YRR Calvinists will react.

    In all your research have you come across Lordship salvation? Don’t ask me what it is as I never understood it. But it is my understanding McArthur was into it at one time.

    McArthur is flat out patriarchal, IMO.

  354. @ Tree:
    Lydia wrote:

    When you invite the newly freed divinely healed pedophile to babysit your kids, then I will listen. In the meantime, I will err on the side of the victims..

    That is extreme-think that no one here has advocated. Of course the victims need protection. But there still remains the question of how to minister to released offenders who are seriously trying to get healthy. It’s not an easy solution, but extreme-think will not help to find the right answer. I don’t have this figured out yet, but I suspect that there are viable ways for healthy churches to minister to them without exposing children to risk. The registered offenders are more easily known because of the fact that they are registered. The unregistered offenders are probably the biggest threat since they can pass background checks. That is scary.

  355. Ken F wrote:

    But there still remains the question of how to minister to released offenders who are seriously trying to get healthy. I

    IMO, the ones who are serious will not want to be anywhere near children, as they will be horrified by what they have done and want to do. If they are not horrified, they definitely need to be kept away. Minister to them at home. Or in special groups. Or at the prison.

  356. Daisy wrote:

    Your husband will be held accountable before God for how well you rinsed the sudsy bubbles off the glasses

    He’ll be in heep big trouble, then! He does the dishes at least 1/3 of the time. When he isn’t very busy and exhausted, he’s more than happy to do dishes for a home-cooked meal!

  357. Ken F wrote:

    That is extreme-think that no one here has advocated. Of course the victims need protection. But there still remains the question of how to minister to released offenders who are seriously trying to get healthy. It’s not an easy solution, but extreme-think will not help to find the right answer. I don’t have this figured out yet, but I suspect that there are viable ways for healthy churches to minister to them without exposing children to risk. The registered offenders are more easily known because of the fact that they are registered. The unregistered offenders are probably the biggest threat since they can pass background checks. That is scary.

    I have posted a link previously when this discussion arose. Sex crimes experts have said that sex offenders should be ministered to apart from the normal congregation.

    The Mennonites in Canada and the U.S. (like California) have a few such ministries. But they require a high-degree of training, hours, and work with an offender’s parole officer, psychiatrist, etc.

  358. In honor of Lydia, Daisy, Lea,

    I just gave my neighbor a brand new expensive eye cosmetics box that was given to me recently as a gift. (I’m allergic to all eye make-up.) The mom was thrilled. She’s got a husband and three children, she’s been treated for cancer, and the youngest has been in and out of the Children’s Hospital with an illness.

  359. Lydia wrote:

    Those who prey on the least of these should never ever be trusted again.

    I am not qualified for that ministry ,obviously.

    Lydia, it’s not the pedophiles we TRUST. The concept of the Mercy of God is based on trust in the power of Jesus Christ to heal sinners, to bring them into conviction, and change their hearts. That’s where the ‘pain’ can be healed that drives people to act out abuse on others …

    OUR problem is not that we ‘forgive the perpetrators and ignore the victims’, no. OUR problem is that we think we are sure we are ‘not like that other sinner’ and we are in our own eyes justified to point the finger. I think part of grace is that we begin to be able to sincerely pray the real ‘sinner’s prayer’: Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. And only then, can we sincerely extend our prayer to ‘Lord, be merciful to us sinners’.

    John Henry Newman once said,
    “This thought should keep us humble. We are sinners, but we do not know how great. He alone knows Who died for our sins.”

    It’s a process, this sojourning as ‘Church’, and in order to help abuse victims bear their burdens, we actually may have to put down those stones we wanted to throw at the perpetrators, and commit the perpetrators themselves into the healing Hands of Our Lord.

    It’s not the rational, normal, red-blooded reaction of outrage and anger, no. It makes no sense in our world. But that’s where the trust comes in …the trust that Our Lord Himself can bring the way of grace into the midst of human darkness where we would not be either willing or able to go. That’s on Whom we CAN place our trust with confidence.

  360. Lydia wrote:

    McArthur is flat out patriarchal, IMO

    Yes he is. My ex-pastor was a graduate of JMac’s The Master’s College and The Master’s Seminary.

    I don’t know what Lordship Salvation is either. I just know that these guys are the most domineering, oppressive, rules-based, laws-based insufferable people to be around.

  361. Lea wrote:

    IMO, the ones who are serious will not want to be anywhere near children, as they will be horrified by what they have done and want to do.

    Yes. That would be a huge red flag if they want to be around children. The repentent ones will want to avoid being around children.

  362. Christiane wrote:

    OUR problem is that we think we are sure we are ‘not like that other sinner’ and we are in our own eyes justified to point the finger. I

    I don’t think it’s wrong to think we are not as bad as child molesters! Is that truly Catholic teaching?

    Churches are a hospital for sinners in the sense that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Even Paul said mr sex with his dad’s wife should be tossed out of the church. I don’t think he’d have a problem keeping child molesters out.

  363. Gram3 wrote:

    My guess is that the folks at their church liability carrier helped the elders at NewSpring understand they needed to do something about what they no doubt would like to have overlooked.

    Things that may never see the light of day. I find it is hard to penetrate the secrets in even local churches and non-profits that I have or had close association.

  364. Lea wrote:

    @ Mark:
    I do occasionally wear very dark blue eyeshadow if I’m wearing navy. Tends to make my eyes look more blue instead of green. But not light blue frosted which would be quite dated…

    I’m too old for frosted shadow. I don’t wear make-up around home, but when I go somewhere, I have to have mascara. I wear glasses — near-sighted. Most of the time, I’ll do shadow and liner with the black mascara, with dark brown liner and earth tone or lavender/purple shadow. Those shadow colors make my evil green eyes look even more evil. (My husband says I have evil eyes. Oh,well.)
    Hair? Ash blonde going gray and sinfully short! My attitude : if you don’t like the way I look, find something else to look at.

  365. Lydia wrote:

    In all your research have you come across Lordship salvation? Don’t ask me what it is as I never understood it. But it is my understanding McArthur was into it at one time.

    McArthur is flat out patriarchal, IMO.

    You are correct on both counts. He is very complentarian, but not ESS. I suspect his alliance with YRRs will not last.

  366. Lydia wrote:

    As to him being a businessman it got me to thinking….

    I use the term loosely, a snake oil salesman was also a businessman of sorts except the snake oil salesman may have been more in touch with his market.

  367. Ken F wrote:

    I don’t have this figured out yet, but I suspect that there are viable ways for healthy churches to minister to them without exposing children to risk.

    I suggested on older threads:
    -Pedos can watch the church services on TV or over the internet
    -Adults can visit the pedo at his home for Bible studies every week

    That way the pedo gets ministered to without children having to be around the pedo.

  368. Lea wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    OUR problem is that we think we are sure we are ‘not like that other sinner’ and we are in our own eyes justified to point the finger. I

    I don’t think it’s wrong to think we are not as bad as child molesters! Is that truly Catholic teaching?

    Churches are a hospital for sinners in the sense that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Even Paul said mr sex with his dad’s wife should be tossed out of the church. I don’t think he’d have a problem keeping child molesters out.

    well, the perpetrators need to be stopped, disarmed, exposed, and it is a work of mercy to stop them, because in hurting others, they themselves are further divided from God and their fellow man.

    But in the sacred Scriptures is a lesson in how Christ acknowledged the sin of the woman taken in adultery, and acknowledged the right of the men to stone her, according to the law ….. but He upgraded everything when He wrote something in the sand and when the men read it,
    they put down their stones and walked sadly away. Was there something in what He wrote that put light on His words: ‘he who is without sin, caste the first stone’?

    I think Our Lord first helped those men, and I think then, having helped them, He turned and helped the woman herself. When Christ is present, ALL kinds of healing are possible. Even our own.

  369. Ken F wrote:

    I don’t have this figured out yet, but I suspect that there are viable ways for healthy churches to minister to them without exposing children to risk

    IIRC Wade Burleson said there is a registered pedophile who attends his church and he explained the system they have in place for the time he is in attendance at services. I think he said all staff are aware of him and he is accompanied at all times. You could contact him for specifics if you are interested.

  370. Velour wrote:

    I don’t know what Lordship Salvation is either.

    I read up on Lordship Salvation years ago. I might be mistaken – maybe I misunderstood or my memory is shaky – but from what I remember, people who believe in it don’t think it’s enough to simply believe in Christ or profess him, but you must live out a godly life. They seem rather rules-based.

  371. Ken F wrote:

    But there still remains the question of how to minister to released offenders who are seriously trying to get healthy.

    I was at about the same point a year ago. Dee posted an article about the pedophile Eric Nickle at Fairfax Community church, the post yielded a good discussion that helped me understand much better. I recommend reading the post and the comments.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/07/29/fairfax-community-church-statement-on-eric-nickle/

  372. Lydia wrote:

    In all your research have you come across Lordship salvation?

    Lordship Salvation Controversy was a debate between the MacArthur group and the free grace group which was led by Zane Hodges at Dallas Theological Seminary. IIRC it was back in the late 70’s and early 80’s, but I may be mistaken about that. A lot of controversies have gone under the bridge since then. Basically, the question was whether or not a true believer will necessarily consistently demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit and refrain from sin or whether there really is such a thing as a “carnal” Christian. That is a very brief description of *part* of the controversy. The MacArthurites thought the Free Gracers were antinomian and the Free Gracers thought the MacArthurites were legalists. That might be an interesting topic for the ODP.

  373. @ Christiane:

    It’s fine to think God can forgive pedophiles, but the way pedophilia works -this is my understanding from reading articles about it- is that the pedo never loss his (or her) desire for kids.

    Sort of like someone who is a recovering alcoholic might struggle being at a party where everyone else is walking around holding a beer or other drink.

    Someone in my family is a drug addict. Her desire for drugs was so bad, she’d sometimes steal money from family member’s wallets to go buy more. Or, she’d take their stuff and sell it to pawn shops to get money.

    You can’t leave people like that alone around your wallet, purse, or jewelry box.

    You can forgive them and God can forgive them, but being prone to stealing to support a drug habit, and the drug habit itself, is something they may contend with over a life time. I wouldn’t want that person in my home, knowing that I know she steals money and does drugs.

    I probably wouldn’t want to leave an alcoholic around an unlocked bar (if I had one, which I don’t because I’m a teetotaler).

    In the same way, I wouldn’t want even a Forgive-by-God pedophile around children, in any capacity. There is no reason for them to be around kids anyway. They can attend adults-only Bible studies or watch church stuff online or on the TV.

  374. Ken F wrote:

    The repentent ones will want to avoid being around children.

    They may not be ‘in control’ of the impulse to abuse children, so they must be legally and morally kept FROM being around children. The Church MUST act to ‘lead them not into temptation’. Those ‘leaders’ who excused and sheltered paedophile friends and allowed the paedophiles continued access to abuse … those leaders ARE culpable morally for encouraging some very sick people to continue abusing the innocent.

  375. @ Gram3:
    I should have said that I thought both men had some valid points, though my heart was with Zane Hodges due to reports I heard of his humble service.

  376. Daisy wrote:

    In the same way, I wouldn’t want even a Forgive-by-God pedophile around children, in any capacity.

    There is a difference between ‘forgiveness of sin’ and opening the door for the sin to recur when the sinner cannot, does not, have the power to control their own sickness. The Church must not allow paedophiles access.

    Sick people need help. And incarcerated people need ministry. And innocent people need protection from abuse.
    No one says different.
    But when we have set ourselves on a higher plane than the very sick people we want to see as capable of that which we could never do,
    we have to understand that there may have been a time when the paedophile was a small victim himself or herself, and no one was there to stop it. ‘Acting out’ behavior is often at the root of paedophilia. When victims grow up to become perpetrators, the cycle continues, UNTIL ….. and the Church needs to be a part of the UNTIL, not a part of the status quo.

  377. Bill M wrote:

    That is exactly what I was thinking of. I buy a lot of used computer equipment to refurb and back in 2000/2001 I was going through one defunct venture and found everything was gold plated. There was one room full of 70 Ricarro office chairs, they should have been using the $59.95 specials at the local Staples or Office Max. FYI you would likely recognize the name of the failed startup.

    At the time there was a website called “F’ed Company” that watchblogged dot-com startups like Deb & Dee do corrupt churches.

  378. Christiane wrote:

    ” Noble had “caused much concern” about his alcohol use, as well as his “posture toward marriage”, and the board members had confronted Noble multiple times in the past about these issues, Duffey explained.”

    “Posture towards marriage”…
    As in “Live Boy or Dead Woman”?

    (Every picture of Perry Noble at the pulpit, he looked like he was straining on the can after two weeks of total constipation. Red-faced and grimacing.)

  379. @ Christiane:
    There are a lot of molested children who do not grow up to molest children. And you are assuming all pedophiles were molested. Pedophiles are masters of manipulation. Charming. It would be hard to believe anything they say if you understand their grooming process. They even groom the parent. They usually target poor kids or kids of a single mom, etc. they are extremely clever. They are patient, too.

    I have no problem with prison ministries. I thought I made that point. Why would wanting to protect children from a known predator mean one does not forgive? I don’t get where you are coming from.

    I am not sure what pronouncing divine healing of a predator accomplishes. How are people to respond? Trust? Believe it? After years of expert and masterful deception living a completely double life? Some in ministry led double lives using Jesus as a beard. Perhaps if you could talk in practical application instead of platitudes, I could wrap my head around your points.

  380. Christiane wrote:

    But when we have set ourselves on a higher plane than the very sick people we want to see as capable of that which we could never do,
    we have to understand that there may have been a time when the paedophile was a small victim himself or herself, and no one was there to stop it.

    I don’t think anyone who frequents this blog thinks of themselves as being on a “higher plane.”

    OTOH, I’ve never committed a sin as heinous as pedophilia. I do think some sins are worse than others. I don’t weigh them all the same.

    Re: “we have to understand that there may have been a time when the paedophile was a small victim himself or herself”

    Someone else who is more informed than I can jump in, but I think there are studies that have shown that there’s a percentage of pedos who were not molested themselves as kids? That is, not all victims grow up to be abusers.

  381. Christiane wrote:

    Those ‘leaders’ who excused and sheltered paedophile friends and allowed the paedophiles continued access to abuse … those leaders ARE culpable morally for encouraging some very sick people to continue abusing the innocent.

    another term for those in Church leadership who have shielded and enabled abusers would be:
    ‘Abusers By Proxy’

    it’s a REAL problem in the whole Church, and people are working to end it

  382. @ Lea:

    This is exactly what SGM taught that became so notorious. The victim was a sinner, too, like the molester so they must forgive and forget.

    It actually desensitizes people to the most heinous of sin instead of making them truly more merciful. They feel pious. There is a word for it: sin leveling.

    The barbarity of child molestation just stops me cold. I have met too many victims whose lives were forever altered. Just recently a 45 year old man I have known for a few years told me of his molestation as boy. He Said, I know I need to move on but it still affects me out of nowhere to this day.

    I have just seen the devastation it causes.

  383. Christiane wrote:

    But when we have set ourselves on a higher plane than the very sick people we want to see as capable of that which we could never do,
    we have to understand that there may have been a time when the paedophile was a small victim himself or herself, and no one was there to stop it. ‘Acting out’ behavior is often at the root of paedophilia. When victims grow up to become perpetrators, the cycle continues, UNTIL ….. and the Church needs to be a part of the UNTIL, not a part of the status quo.

    OK, please go to my post earlier today and listen to the link of Dr. Anna Salter, Harvard educated and author of Predators, on Tier Talk (a show for the corrections/prison industry). She addresses these issues: That many predators were never sexually abused, that they are master manipulators/story-tellers, and that they are not mentally ill,
    that they are sexually attracted to children, and that they do make a choice to sexually abuse children (which they like).

  384. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Does He not offer His fathomless Mercy to every single human being, especially those most in need of it? Is this not completely biblical?

    He certainly does, no doubt about it, and yeah it’s ‘Biblical’ enough to get more than honorable mention. But there also comes a point when practical common sense reality must intrude.

  385. Daisy wrote:

    OTOH, I’ve never committed a sin as heinous as pedophilia. I do think some sins are worse than others. I don’t weigh them all the same.

    Some sins are just sins. Some sins are crimes. Pedophilia is a horrendous crime.

  386. Gram3 wrote:

    OK, in the embedded video, her jacket appears to me to be kid leather that has extensive (which means expensive) tailoring. Very, very few SAHMs can afford her wardrobe example. Nor can they afford a personal stylist.

    Good points Gram3. Kassian’s market is trendy and upscale, no way does her stuff have any meaning to the working poor. And the other thing? Don’t leave God out of your closets, process, what have you… I’ve noticed this under current in evangelicalism, that God wants to micro-manage your life. Really?

  387. Muff Potter wrote:

    And the other thing? Don’t leave God out of your closets, process,

    I’m country. I’m a pack rat. My closest so aren’t that bad, but Ka$$ian could see my attic and our storage sheds, she’d call an exorcist.

  388. Nancy2 wrote:

    Some sins are just sins. Some sins are crimes. Pedophilia is a horrendous crime.

    I was reading 1 John tonight and ended up musing over the “sin leading to death” which is so hard to understand. It almost makes me wonder…

  389. Daisy wrote:

    @ Mark:
    Maybe I’m confused, but – I was replying to someone with the screen name of “Mar” (no “K” at the end) with a Canadian flag? Or is that you?

    Me, it always comes up Canadian. I actually live in the Southern US.

  390. Muff Potter wrote:

    Don’t leave God out of your closets, process, what have you… I’ve noticed this under current in evangelicalism, that God wants to micro-manage your life. Really?

    Really.

    At my insufferable, authoritarian, abusive ex-NeoCalvinist church any area of a church member’s life was fair game for control by the pastors/elders & their inner circle of friends.

    *Associate Pastor and his wife were disciplined for what they fed their child, who has numerous allergies and they have to be careful. This was the subject of an elders’ meeting.

    *Members were screamed at for not attending Bible studies at homes.

    *Attendance was tracked at everything.

    *If you missed church you were called.

    *The Chairman of the Elder Board chastized me, in front of others at church, for riding my bike to church in a dress. He was inferring that I was somehow indecent. I replied,
    trying to control my exasperation (which would have gotten me subjected to more discipline) that, “Yes, it’s wonderful that bike shorts fit on underneath a dress!”

    *I was disciplined for bringing 10-pounds of barbecue beef brisket to a church potluck, which disappeared in record time I might add. That was the subject of an elders meeting. The Chairman of the Elder Board called to tell me that I had been “too lavish.”
    (I should have channeled Nancy2 here and quipped back, “And I’ve determined that you’re too tacky!”) I know I’ve written here before about the bbq. But really, if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.

    *I was told I had to get rid of an Italian cross (a birthday gift that I’d had for years, worth hundreds of dollars) because a horrid, judgmental older woman church member was offended that I had it on my living room wall. The senior pastor agreed and said I shouldn’t have it. (I wish I’d walked out of that nut case church then. Imagine telling people to get rid of their own possessions, let alone their own birthday gifts!)

    *Members were told that they couldn’t leave the church for another, saner church and were harassed and stalked on the orders of the senior pastor. A kind of sic ’em meeting after the church service to hundreds of members.

    *Members were told who they had to be friends with.

    *Closets…on the the list of things to control? Oh you bet. If they wanted to examine mine, I’d invite Nancy2 to California to give me “an assist”.

  391. ^I’d invite Nancy2 to give me “an assist” taking care of those insufferable NeoCalvinist pastors/elders who get on my last raw nerve.

  392. If we are going to think of the church as a hospital for sinners, maybe it would be good to think back on what hospitals were like in the days before the microbial source of disease was recognized. Hospitals in those days were the most dangerous place to be. One person’s virulent disease was spread to the whole ward. Once they learned how disease is spread, they realized they had to employ means to segregate patients’ germs from one another. Until the church can learn how to do this, it is a dangerous place. The sickest person is free to infect the whole group. The young and vulnerable are most in danger.

    I’m afraid I didn’t word this very well but hopefully you get my drift.

    Lydia wrote:

    The barbarity of child molestation just stops me cold. I have met too many victims whose lives were forever altered. Just recently a 45 year old man I have known for a few years told me of his molestation as boy. He Said, I know I need to move on but it still affects me out of nowhere to this day.

    I have just seen the devastation it causes.

    A thousand times yes. It is a form of cold-blooded murder.

  393. @ Ken F:
    This is true and it is what makes True Christianity different. Why the Talking Heads discard the reality of a direct, intimate and personal relationship with Creator God is confounding.They sell out to their own devised humanistic system.

    Their system has presuppositions, like supposedly the husband is a perfect leader, beyond human, I guess, so submit. Well, suppose the slave owner is benevolent so slavery is good says Wilson. Along those lines, suppose King George was wonderful and the US then should have remained in the British Empire.

  394. Muff Potter wrote:

    But there also comes a point when practical common sense reality must intrude.

    maybe ‘Mercy’ and ‘Justice’ combine in God ….. and in a way that we CAN trust

    no one has ever said that we should abandon our God-given reason in how to protect innocent people from abuse ….
    and we know that some illnesses like paedophilia have no treatment that would make it permissible for the person to re-enter the world unrestricted and free to be around children …. these are very sick individuals

    but getting on a higher plane does two things: it reassures us that it is okay to thank God that ‘we are not like that other sinner’
    and
    it places us above where we need to be if we are to be effective in stopping abuse.

    The place of humility that asks us to put down our stones,
    also is the place that asks Church leadership not to assume that they have the ‘authority’ to re-admit sick individuals back into the sheep fold to be tempted beyond their ability to control the impulse to target the lambs

    Humility before the Lord is not the absence of ‘reason’. Humility before the Lord invites His blessing of grace to empower us to serve Him without carrying stones in our hands.

  395. JYJames wrote:

    Their system has presuppositions, like supposedly the husband is a perfect leader, beyond human, I guess, so submit.

    An old song from the sixties goes

    “. . and Jesus was a sailor and He walked upon the water, and He spent a long time watching from a lonely wooden tower . . . ”

    sometimes if any Christian feels he needs to ‘be raised up’ in the eyes of another in order to be respected, all he has to do is to imagine how Christ was raised up.

    Then he will quietly walk away from thought of pedestals;
    because he knows that the Only One who ever deserved to be on one,
    chose the Cross instead.

  396.   __

    Jesus: “The Greatest Among You Shall Be Your Servant” ?

    hmmm…

    “We strived to out-serve each other, and that’s how it’s been for most of our married life. I highly recommend it!” -Deb

    An Argument:

    Complmentarianism as defined by the Danvers statement [1], fails when the biblical standard for service as found in the New Testament scriptures is considered.

    Upon examining New Testament scripture, Christianity at its core as a religious belief system, is biblically predicated by Jesus Christ Himself upon two positions: loving ‘The One True God’ with all, and loving your neighbor as yourself. 

    Yes, This is the standard (His summary of the old testament law) Jesus set for the new covenant confirmed by His shed blood on the cross.This was the standard that each apostle Jesus called, presented and promoted during their individual ministry years. This is the New Testament standard, loving God, service to others. This was the New Testament ‘mark’ of the true Christian, this is what turned the Roman Empire upside down, this is what spread Christianity across the entire globe.

    Complmentarianism is not about loving God or service to others, but ultimately an attempt to conform the church Christ created, –placing it under a systematic man-made stature or status; the status of the male Christian has a certain autonomy, the female sub-servant to that autonomy. Service by design therefore appears to be moving with rigor one way. This is not Jesus’ intention for His church. This does not in any shade of appearance express what Jesus prescribed for His newly formed church at all. His church was to be primarily consumed by their love for God, His Father, and their service to one another. Complmentarianism (as defined by the Danvers statement) in action seeking to divide the body of Christ, appears to fail in this reguard as a proper ‘christian’ religious doctrine or religious belief system on both accounts.

    True Christianity: Love God, N’ Serve Others?

    Jesus’ words to His ‘Christian’ church still stand supreme, don’t they? : “The greatest among you shall be your servant.” 

    Christianity (as defined by Jesus) is not about gender privilege, but about loving our heavenly Father, with all, and serving one another in the love of Christ.

    ATB 🙂

    Sopy
    __
    [1] http://www.churchcouncil.org/ICCP_org/Documents_ICCP/English/17_Male_Female_Distinctives_A&D.pdf

  397. Is she really a true Christian, and as a woman, a role model to follow, by her example?

    In Titus, Elder women teaching the younger is mentioned as a pillar.

    Beyond words, what do her actions teach?

  398. Lydia wrote:

    While I agree with this, something interesting is taking place. Maybe it is just me and the ability due to age of looking back at the progression of comp doctrine. Comp doctrine was undergirded by the comp insistence on authority in creation order using a horrible interpretation of 1st Tim to read back into Genesis. Then Grudem and company had to include ESS so there was no question of authority relationships. This is not new. It is, in fact, ingrained thinking for a whole generation of pastors in the SBC. It has been around for quite a while but some who find themselves in a position to disagree are taking on the heretical Trinity portion while affirming the authority/submission portion of the genders.

    But make no mistake. A can of worms has been opened. Those defending comp doctrine without ESS (which is now ingrained in many without realizing it –even down to TULIP and Especially PSA) are going to have a hard time of it if they eat their Wheaties and study.

    So far, all they have done is argue the heretical ESS. They just affirm comp in passing. they have not really debated it at all in light of the entire pericope. People have been instinctively moving away from comp. it is not even practical. The application is mostly just talk as many found out. Most pew sitters pay lip service and live out what works. If this were not a problem the purveyors of comp would not be going to so much trouble to rebrand CBMW, etc.

    The Aimee’s and Truemans don’t want to talk about comp doctrine. They might have to and soon.

    I think you’re right. Something interesting is taking place. That’s a good way to put it: a can of worms has been opened.

    Complementarians cooked up the ESS, subverting the Truth and bypassing the Gospel in an attempt to root subordinationism in the Trinity.

    Let’s strip away Comp doctrine and the nonsense of the ESS. Let’s agree Jesus is not eternally subordinated and label all that for what it is: Heresy. What now?

    In theory, the effort to root our identity within God was right, but the ESS completely missed the mark in the way it heretically redefined who we are in Christ through its redefinition of Christ, introducing subordinationism in both areas.

    But it’s not enough to protect the Trinity against subordinationism. Our identities in Christ must also be secured, especially since this is where the vulnerability lies, and where the breach occurred. The Gospel is 100% about us, and we need to know all that it means for us, based on a proper understanding of God.

    Ridding Complementarianism of the ESS and focusing attention on its redefinition of the Trinity is a start, but it must not end there because. The Gospel is about God completely giving his life up to bring us to Himself. It’s all about us. Therefore, it is essential that we understand all that Jesus Christ accomplished for us, and how radically he changed our identities from sinners to saints. Knowing this prevents us from falling prey to those who lie against us, who attempt to subvert our standing before God, and who seek to cause division in our relationships to one another within the Body of Christ.

  399. JYJames wrote:

    Is she really a true Christian, and as a woman, a role model to follow, by her example?

    In Titus, Elder women teaching the younger is mentioned as a pillar.

    Beyond words, what do her actions teach?

    It’s interesting that Mary Kassian was capable of speaking at a three-day event at Southern Seminary in February 2005, which fell in between the car accident and the court judgment.

    An article published by SBTS about the women’s event included the following:

    Christian women must be wise and not ‘weak-willed,’ Mary Kassian recently told more than 200 attendees of the Women’s Leadership Consultation Feb. 10-12 at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.   …

    Like the serpent in Eden, Kassian pointed out that evil seeks to slither into the lives of women in a number of ways. A Christian woman must watch vigilantly for those influences and keep them out, she said.

    “[The apostle] Paul says a woman is [to be] alert, watchful,” Kassian said. “A wise woman stands guard and watches those access points in her life and keeps them closed off.

    “A wise woman doesn’t allow ungodliness into her home. A wise woman stands guard and takes care to make sure that there aren’t those access points. Maybe it is exposure in terms of what’s coming into her home [through] movies or magazines or the Internet. Evil wants to worm its way in. A wise woman must keep it out.”

  400. Velour wrote:

    *Members were screamed at for not attending Bible studies at homes.

    I can absolutely believe this. Just before we launched this blog, I was involved in a church re-plant. We had a Q&A session, and someone asked this question:

    “What if I decide not to participate in a community group?”

    One of the two pastor-elders responded:

    “Then you will be put under church discipline.”

    That was the last straw for me!   And I had been so excited about the church re-plant throughout the process.  

    These two men are affiliated with SEBTS.

  401. Deb wrote:

    “What if I decide not to participate in a community group?”

    One of the two pastor-elders responded:

    “Then you will be put under church discipline.”

    That was the last straw for me! And I had been so excited about the church re-plant throughout the process.

    These two men are affiliated with SEBTS.

    And at these ‘group sessions’, what happens? Are people pressured to ‘confess their sins’ in front of the whole group? Who are they confessing to? The group? I’m not seeing this as ‘confession’ in the classic orthodox sense …. it seems more of a man-made affair with intentions of intimidation and shaming, rather than a Christian confession based on an examination of conscience and done in private.

    ?

    What are the real purposes of these ‘groups’, anyway? Do they have the potential of being destructive to the dignity and privacy of the members? Are they used for purposes of intimidation and propaganda?

  402. @ Christiane:
    As we saw with SGM, these ‘care groups’ can definitely be used for control.

    Currently, I’m involved in a community group of sorts. It’s my small Sunday school class. What a sweet group of Christians!

  403. Christiane wrote:

    What are the real purposes of these ‘groups’, anyway?

    In my experience, they are mostly social with a bible study on top, although the nature of that study varies by group.

    There is nothing sinister about a home group, it’s the requirement that makes it concerning.

  404. @ Lea:

    I should say there is nothing sinister in and of itself. Evil people can use them for evil purpose of course.

  405. Lea wrote:

    There is nothing sinister about a home group, it’s the requirement that makes it concerning.

    The requirement is shocking. As is the penalty for non-compliance. The attempt at control is disrespectful of personal choice, which in matters of religion, should never be forced.
    You were right to be concerned, yes.

  406. Deb wrote:

    “A wise woman doesn’t allow ungodliness into her home. A wise woman stands guard and takes care to make sure that there aren’t those access points. Maybe it is exposure in terms of what’s coming into her home [through] movies or magazines or the Internet. Evil wants to worm its way in. A wise woman must keep it out.”

    Guess the women attending the Leadership Conference didn’t know this already. Really, Mary, do you think Christian women are mindless and heedless of evil? How about the evil of teaching those young women that they were created to be lesser? Forget your argument that they are created equal in value but subordinate in function because it makes no sense, and, if you cannot understand that then you should not be a teacher.

  407. Daisy – Poor Mary Kassain would have a fainting spell about seeing what I wear. I live 2 hrs east of Dallas, in Tyler, TX. It gets very hot here. I wear capri pants and shorts a lot, and sleeveless t-shirts or tanks (big sin that is). I buy my clothes from Penneys, Kohls, and the internet. I’m sure that is another cardinal sin to her. My one makeup vice though is lipgloss. I have super dry lips and wear it all the time. But I must confess, I love wearing jewelry. I wear my watch and earrings every day, even though I am at home living shorts and tees.

  408. @ Deb:
    A wise woman doesn’t allow ungodliness into her home.

    How about starting with telling the truth?

    In his Vancouver TED talk, Simon Sinek notes that when the CEO lies and says to his secretary, “Tell them I am not here,” he has just set the standard for dishonesty in his company.

    If indeed this woman teacher perjured herself in Court, it’s going to bite back big time in her own home, right where it hurts. Sad but true.

  409. Lea wrote:

    In his Vancouver TED talk, Simon Sinek notes that when the CEO lies and says to his secretary, “Tell them I am not here,” he has just set the standard for dishonesty in his company.

    Yes. I really appreciate KenF research on accountability as it relates to the Body. I encourage folks to read his recent comments on the ODP.

    I never tracked this but perhaps it is time to pay attention the names given these groups. I called my friend back and asked her to ask her son what they called that group. Confession circle.

    Can you get anymore Chinese cultural Revolution re-education than that?

    So the entire premise is based on coming ready to “confess” sin to the group.

    Other names I have heard are ‘care group and/or redemption group’. I would be interested in hearing other names people have heard.

  410. My last comment is weird. If you click on Lea’s name, you see her comment I was referencing is not what showed up!

  411. Velour wrote:

    ^I’d invite Nancy2 to give me “an assist” taking care of those insufferable NeoCalvinist pastors/elders who get on my last raw nerve.

    Ha ha! When my daughter was in her early teens, she helped in VBS with the little kids, ages 3 and 4. She wore biker shorts under her dresses. A kid climbed a tree in the church yard and laughed at the teacher when he was ordered to come down. My daughter shinnied up the tree and got him. The teacher started to rail on my daughter for having the audacity to wear shorts underneath her dress. Our preacher’s wife intervened and said to the teacher, “Let me see you climb that tree and get that little boy down in you high heels and above-the-knee skirt!”
    Yeah, channel me or my daughter……. maybe both at the same time!

  412. Lowlandseer wrote:

    Albert Mohler’s bio repeatedly refers to him having undertaken research at the University of Oxford but there is no mention of when and what those studies were. This leads me to wonder if these were formal, accredited studies or informal ones

    LLS – did you receive a satisfactory answer to your question/thought? I was out of town over the weekend, a much needed family vacation (albeit too short) before our daughter leaves for her first year of university, and am just now attempting to catch up on what I missed.

    You raise an excellent point, though. I would not put it past Mohler or any of his disciples to equate spending time in Bodleian with “undertaking research” and making it sound formal and professional. The exaggeration of educational accomplishments has been discussed on several previous posts, from Dennis Darville’s attempted coup of FBC Rocky Mount to the previous Kassian post.

  413. Paula Rice wrote:

    That’s a good way to put it: a can of worms has been opened.

    Hmmmm. All of these high and mighty ESS men issuing their “royal edicts” and Lydia’s use of that phrase brings to mind King Herod, “and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.”

  414. Deb quoting article about Kassian:
    Deb wrote:

    A wise woman doesn’t allow ungodliness into her home.

    But what if the one bringing the ungodliness into the home is the husband that she is supposed to joyfully submit to? The one she can sweetly disagree with one time and then after that she has to zippa her lippa?

  415. Remember how I said the other day one day I visited this blog and all the flags by people’s names were Japanese (in the “recent comments” box on the thread page)?

    Same thing is happening today, only they are the Union Jack flag, including people who I know are in the United States. Weird.

  416. @ Sopwith:

    As even some complementarians have noted, Christian egalitarians also believe that that sexes are complementary.

    The real issue between the two is that complemetnarians teach male hierarchy (or flip side of that coin, they teach female subordination).

    Complementarians are promoting a form of patriarchy but putting another label on it (‘complementarianism’) and saying it’s all God-condoned.

  417. Deb wrote:

    “What if I decide not to participate in a community group?”
    One of the two pastor-elders responded:
    “Then you will be put under church discipline.”

    I’m sorry to repeat myself, I know I’ve mentioned this before on this site, but I’m very, very introverted. I’m not a social butterfly, don’t enjoy getting out of the house too much and being around groups.

    I don’t think these churches appreciate not everyone is an extrovert who wants to be around people all the time.

    They make no allowances for differing personality types.

    (This is all aside from how ridiculous and legalistic it is to tell people you’re giving them demerits for skipping some weekly churchy group. What are we, 15 and in high school still?)

  418. Daisy wrote:

    What are we, 15 and in high school still?)

    Nope. 12 and in middle school. At least 15 year olds can take an elective class.

  419. @ Lea:

    Yes, it’s one thing for a Christian to teach that all people are sinners (which I do think the Bible does teach), but to jump from that to something like, “all are guilty of the same types of sins, or all WANT to commit sin X,” is going off the reservation – a lot.

    In the Bible, God laid out more severe penalties for different types of sin, so even God does not think in terms of all sins being equally bad.

    Jesus made a comment in the NT about how judgement day will be ‘worse’ for some sinners vs. other sinners – so obviously he too thinks some sins, behaviors, or motives are worse than other kinds.

    God even recognizes distinctions among people.

    If I remember right, there was a situation in the OT where God tells some leader (David maybe?) that some men in his army or community will be too gentle and sensitive to fight (or carry out some task, I forget what), so let those guys return home.

    God doesn’t stick everyone in the same box at all times in every way and category, so I don’t know why some Christians do this.

  420. The pictures of MK, both on LinkedIn and her website, bother me. I can’t figure out if the photographer is using in-camera high-key techniques, Photoshop or both to accomplish the washed out look that leaves her skin without texture. I lean toward thinking is the product of a slight overexposure in the camera and then using the Photoshop technique of a Gaussian blur applied to the skin while sharpening of the eyes. The point, however, is that this kind of glamourfication (my word) seems inconsistent with the values on beauty and modesty that I would expect from someone speaking on the topic of a “True Woman”. Not authentic at all.

  421. Mara wrote:

    But what if the one bringing the ungodliness into the home is the husband that she is supposed to joyfully submit to? The one she can sweetly disagree with one time and then after that she has to zippa her lippa?

    Oh, that’s no problem. She just needs to call the elders to make a ruling. In the meantime, she should submit for a season in the hope that he will be won by her silence and submission. Because submit in everything means everything until the elders say otherwise. Any damage done to her or the children will be taken care of when he has to give an account. Same for the elders like at The Village.

  422. @ Daisy:

    That's not happening on my end. I see an American flag beside your name. My comments don't have a glag at all. I have also seen the Union Jack and the Canadian flag on a couple comments.

  423. __

    “The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood”

    Danvers Statement 

    (BIBLICAL DISTINCTIVES BETWEEN MALES AND FEMALES)

    CBMW Council Members: (at the drafting of the Danvers statement) :

    Gary Almy, M.D.
    Prof. of Psychiatry and Assoc. Dean Chicago Medical School

    Gleason Archer, Ph.D. Professor of Old Testament
    Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

    Donald Balasa, J .D. Attorney, Wildwood, Illinois

    James Borland, Th.D.
    Prof. of New Testament and Theology Liberty University

    Waldemar Degner, Ph.D. Professor of Exegetical Theology Concordia Seminary (Ft. Wayne, Ind.)

    Lane T. Dennis, Ph.D. President, Crossway Books

    Thomas R. Edgar, Th.D. Professor of New Testament Capital Bible Seminary

    John M. Frame, M. Phil. Professor of Systematic Theology Westminster Theological Seminary

    W. Robert Godfrey, Ph.D. Professor of Church History Westminster Theological Seminary

    Wayne A. Grudem, Ph.D.* Assoc. Prof. of Systematic Theology Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

    H. Wayne House, Th.D., J.D.* Vice-president and Professor of Theology Western Baptist college

    R. Kent Hughes, D.Min.* Senior Pastor
    College Church in Wheaton (Illinois)

    James B. Hurley, Ph.D. Professor of Counseling Reformed Theological Seminary

    Elliot Johnson Professor of Bible Expostion Dallas Theological Seminary

    S. Lewis Johnson, Jr. Th.D.* Minister
    Believers Chapel, Dallas

    Mary A. Kassian
    Author, Women’s Ministry Consultant Calvary Baptist Church, Edmonton

    Rhonda H. Kelley, Ph.D. Associate Director, Innovative Evangelism New Orleans, Louisiana

    George W. Knight, III, Th.D. Administrator, Dean and Prof. of New Test. Knox Theological Seminary

    Beverly LaHaye President
    Concerned Women for America

    Betty Jo Lewis Homemaker Atlanta, Georgia

    Connie Marshner
    Editor
    Child & Family Protection Inst.

    Richard Mayhue, Th.D. Vice-Pres., Dean of Grad. Studies The Master’s Seminary

    Douglas J. Moo, Ph.D. Chairman, Dept. of New Testament Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

    Raymond C. Ortlund, Jr., Ph.D. Asst. Prof. of Old Testament
    Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

    Dorothy Patterson, D.Min. Homemaker, Dallas, Texas

    John Piper, Dr. Theol.* Senior Pastor
    Bethlehem Baptist Church (Minneapolis)

    Joyce Rogers, Homemaker Memphis, Tennessee

    Ken Sarles, Th.M.
    Asst. Prof. of Systematic Theology Dallas Theological Seminary

    Siegfried Schatzmann, Ph.D. Professor of New Testament
    Oral Roberts University

    Larry Walker, Ph.D. Professor of Old Testament Mid-America Seminary

    William Weinrich, Ph.D. Professor of Church History Concordia Seminary (Ft. Wayne, Ind.)

    CBMW Board of Reference (at the tme of drafting) :

    Hudson T. Armerding 

    Harold O. J. Brown 

    D. A. Carson 

    Edmund Clowney 

    Jerry Falwell

    Carl F. H. Henry 

    Paul Karleen

    D. James Kennedy 

    Gordon R. Lewis 

    Erwin Lutzer

    John MacArthur, Jr. 

    Marty Minton 

    Thomas McComiskey 

    J.I. Packer

    Paige and Dorothy Patterson

    Pat Robertson 

    Adrian and Joyce Rogers

    Bob Slosser

    R. C. Sproul

    James A. Stahr 

    Joseph M. Stowell, III 

    John F. Walvoord 

    Luder Whitlock

    Peter Williamson

    ***

    *Please note that ‘most’ if not all of these individuals were/are Calvinists.

    It is one thing to call in question the various forms of humanism and radical feminism invading the 501(c)3 ‘christian’ church today, it is another thing to seek to subjugate over fifty-one percent of the American 501(c)3 ‘Christian’ church population in the process.

    Toxic New Calvinism, How To Tell?

    If your 501(c)3 church is teaching some form of ‘the sovereignty of God’ doctrine, the ‘elect of God’ doctrine, and/or ‘submission’ as an important predominant religious doctrine, –at once, get up out of your seat, get out of that facility, get into your vehicle , turn the key (or push da button), and don’t lòòk back. The spiritual life you save may be your own. Your families spiritual lives as well. 

    This New Calvinist ‘religious’ stuff is that toxic. 

    (You have been faithfully warned.)

    Don’t wait until it is too late…

    You Decide.

    ATB

    Sopy

    — 

  424. Gram3 wrote:

    Deb wrote:
    “A wise woman doesn’t allow ungodliness into her home. A wise woman stands guard and takes care to make sure that there aren’t those access points. Maybe it is exposure in terms of what’s coming into her home [through] movies or magazines or the Internet. Evil wants to worm its way in. A wise woman must keep it out.”
    ————-
    (Gram 3 replied)
    Guess the women attending the Leadership Conference didn’t know this already. Really, Mary, do you think Christian women are mindless and heedless of evil? How about the evil of teaching those young women that they were created to be lesser? Forget your argument that they are created equal in value but subordinate in function because it makes no sense, and, if you cannot understand that then you should not be a teacher.

    I wonder if Ms. Kassian would consider my bookmarks in my browser to sites such as ‘Christians for Biblical Equality’ (and other sites that refute points made by complementarians) “access points for Evil”? 🙂

  425. @ Deb:

    When I go to old threads on a computer (instead of phone) I see sometimes one flag only on all the comments. Seems to be a quirk of the system but it only happens under certain circumstances.

  426. Gram3 wrote:

    Lowlandseer wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    “What must I do to be saved?” Asked the jailer
    “Meet the elders and go through this form with them” says 9 Marks

    https://9marks.org/article/a-sample-template-for-conducting-a-membership-interview/

    Not sure which emoticon is appropriate. LOL or despairing shock. Regardless, I’m sure relieved someone like you or Dave AA is able to read the 9Marks stuff.

    Goodness! They are asking divorced people if they have tried to reconcile with their spouse when they first want to join a church? That seems awfully intrusive to me.

  427. Lowlandseer wrote:

    “What must I do to be saved?” Asked the jailer
    “Meet the elders and go through this form with them” says 9 Marks

    https://9marks.org/article/a-sample-template-for-conducting-a-membership-interview/

    It is a horrendous read, it is not a template for an interview but for an interrogation. Rather than being horrified, I supposed most people who go through one of these wringers feel glad they will be approved by men. And thus the seed of abuse begins to grow for the new recruit.

  428. Sopwith wrote:

    Mary A. Kassian
    Author, Women’s Ministry Consultant Calvary Baptist Church, Edmonton

    So…here were Mary’s quals that got her onto this committee. Not sure what she had written.

    I love that one lady whose qualifications were simply ‘homemaker’. How did she get on that panel? Somebody’s wife?

  429. Lowlandseer wrote:

    “What must I do to be saved?” Asked the jailer
    “Meet the elders and go through this form with them” says 9 Marks

    https://9marks.org/article/a-sample-template-for-conducting-a-membership-interview/

    Not only do they ask the intrusive questions about previous marriage(s) and reconciliation (remember, this is an introductory interview … the church has not invested any time or effort into the person yet), they also ask for the candidate’s work address. Why is that even relevant? Do they want the boss’ name and phone number as well?

    Also, they mention tithing is one of the Five Expectations. While they pay lip service to the fact that NT doesn’t mandate a percentage, they fail to mention that the NT doesn’t mandate tithing as a requirement at all. To add error to error, they they use 10 percent as a baseline and plant the idea of increasing the percentage all while at the introductory interview.

  430. Preach it, Daisy! And Amen!

    And clearly you know your scripture better than most of today’s SBC!

  431. @ Harley:

    Oh yes, I’ve lived along Gulf Coast states for years. I lived in Houston TX for a long time. It gets very hot there, very humid. I’m appalled when employers in those regions still expect women to wear panty hose to work.

  432. @ Deb:

    I think it may be reverting to whomever posted last.

    When I last posted that previous comment, I think someone with a UK flag had just posted.

    When I just posted just now, all the flags are showing up as American.

    (It’s only doing this on the thread page for “recent comment” not on the home page, though.)

  433. Daisy wrote:

    God doesn’t stick everyone in the same box at all times in every way and category, so I don’t know why some Christians do this.

    God is sovereign, but not to the point of some universal determinism like the neo-cals are saying. But the fact that God does not treat everyone the same at all times and every way is obvious from scripture, both OT and NT. And this differentiation is prophesied for the time of judgment in the imagery of sheep and goats. He does choose some and not others for various things: Isaac but not Ishmael; Jacob but not Esau. The parable of the sower shows that not all the good seed produces good results since there are other variables, and in that parable Jesus did not say that somehow it would all work out in the end for the plants which failed to survive.

    So we western christians find that sort of thing somehow unjust or unmerciful because it may not fit our ideas of justice and mercy. And then we progress to the thinking that God does too do things the way we think He ought to, just because. The next step is to pick and choose within scripture to try to prove that we are correct, to play with word definitions and philosophical concepts and emotional manipulation until we can convince others that we are correct–with the purpose then of convincing ourselves that we are correct. But it does not change reality. Nobody backs God into a corner. God is sovereign. That is not a dirty word; it is a reality. He is also just and merciful-by His own definitions and standards, in His own time, for His own purposes. His purposes are always good.

    No, I am not a calvinist, at all, but I will not let the excesses and deficiencies of calvinism rob me of the idea of the sovereignty of God.

  434. Lea wrote:

    Goodness! They are asking divorced people if they have tried to reconcile with their spouse when they first want to join a church? That seems awfully intrusive to me.

    I am only about half way down that ChurchMembership page here-
    Church Membership Page
    https://9marks.org/article/a-sample-template-for-conducting-a-membership-interview/

    Holy cow. All that just to belong to a church??

    Many years ago, my dad (who was in the military) didn’t undergo that much scrutiny to get security clearances for his military job. Federal guys interviewed my dad’s neighbors and others to ask if they felt he was a security risk and all that stuff.

    But even all that seems like nothing next to this church list.

    Are these churches insane?

    That page, the divorce portion you referred to:

    Fill out divorce information
    If the person has been divorced, you will need to explore this further and take more notes. Some questions to consider:

    How long ago was the divorce?
    Why did you get divorced? The point here is to determine whether or not this was a biblical divorce.
    Were you and your spouse Christians when you got divorced?
    Have you tried to reconcile with your ex-spouse? Are they open to reconciliation?

    Instrusive much?

    I’ve never even been married myself (so I’ve never been divorced, obviously), but I am insulted on behalf of divorced people.

    Christians cannot even fully agree on what constitutes a “biblical divorce,” so who are these guys to imply they know?

    If I went to join a church and if I were asked these questions, I would tell them that famous Ann Landers response: MYOB.

    Oh good gravy – from the “Personal Testimony” section on their page:

    Ask the person to walk through how they became a Christian. Will likely include (but is not limited to):

    Where they were born and grew up
    Family background
    Church background
    Life pre-conversion
    Conversion
    Life post-conversion
    Where they went to school
    Where this person has been since finishing school (jobs, cities, etc…)
    Marriage, family
    How they got to DC

    The main goal here is to understand how this person became a Christian, and how they’ve given evidence of following Christ since then.

    This is not merely their life’s history. You may need to firmly lead more loquacious persons with specific questions to concisely cover most of the points listed above.

    Are you joining a church there or the C.I.A.???

    Farther down the page:

    Ask if they’ve attended Sunday Morning Service and what they thought of it.
    Obviously, regular attendance is required for members.

    …Attend regularly

    We expect our members are here both Sunday morning and Sunday evening
    Encourage them to see this as their primary ministry for the first few months: being here regularly, getting to know people, and letting others get to know them

    …Attend Members’ Meeting

    3rd Sunday of the month, every other month, after the evening service. Bring a snack!

    Pfffft! Good luck getting this introverted Couch Potato to show up to your church in person one day a week, let alone every week for other churchy activities.

  435. @ Daisy:

    The ‘are you really a christian’ questions bothered me too! So much. If they told me I should go to gospel class after 20 years in church because I didn’t use whatever buzzwords they wanted me to I would tell them to pound sand!

  436. Burwell wrote:

    they also ask for the candidate’s work address. Why is that even relevant? Do they want the boss’ name and phone number as well?

    In glancing it over, I did catch the part where they said they ask for your work address so you can get other church member’s work addresses, all a way to create more community.

  437. lind wrote:

    Preach it, Daisy! And Amen!
    And clearly you know your scripture better than most of today’s SBC!

    Well, thank you, though I’m not sure which post of mine you were referring to? (Your post didn’t link back to whatever one of mine you were commenting on).

    I can only guess it’s not the one from a thread the older day where I linked to “You dropped a Bomb on Me” music video by the Gap Band on You Tube? 🙂

  438. Burwell wrote:

    Not only do they ask the intrusive questions about previous marriage(s) and reconciliation (remember, this is an introductory interview … the church has not invested any time or effort into the person yet), they also ask for the candidate’s work address. Why is that even relevant? Do they want the boss’ name and phone number as well?

    Are they trying to institute a Gospelly draft with Gospelly Basic Traing boot camps?
    Even with volunteer signees, the more people the military recruiters recruit, the more bonus pay they get!

  439. I have talked with my daughter about some of these church practices.
    My daughter and her husband live a couple of miles from a 9Marx church.
    My SIL works with some people who attend there. My daughter and SIL were approached by those members about 6 months ago, and “invited” to church. The 9Maxist tried to pressure them. When my daughter was outspoken and rebellious, the 9Ms suggested speaking with my SIL alone. He snorted and said, “My wife knows more about this stuff than I do”, and walked away. They would not press the “discussion” with my daughter, nor have they approached my daughter and SIL again with an invitation.

  440. Deb wrote:

    It’s interesting that Mary Kassian was capable of speaking at a three-day event at Southern Seminary in February 2005, which fell in between the car accident and the court judgment.

    How do you suppose Mary handled her wifely duties – meals and cleaning chores – prior to the whiplash car accident when she was still leaving home for these events?

    She doesn’t sound like a *good* Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood wife.

  441. Nancy2 wrote:

    The 9Maxist tried to pressure them. When my daughter was outspoken and rebellious, the 9Ms suggested speaking with my SIL alone. He snorted and said, “My wife knows more about this stuff than I do”, and walked away. They would not press the “discussion” with my daughter, nor have they approached my daughter and SIL again with an invitation.

    Your daughter has her Mama’s smarts.

    Mark Dever’s 9Marxist organization is the 1970’s heavy Shepherding movement un-Biblical control over Christians’ lives all over again just with a few new terms.

  442. Daisy wrote:

    How does Kassian feel about girls and women in other nations that don’t have as many rights as American women?
    In other nations, women/girls are not permitted to attend school, are sent off to arranged marriages (sometimes girls to much older men), are sold into sex trafficking, cannot vote, can never leave the house unless accompanied by a male relative, must (or think they have to) commit suicide when their husband dies.

    Excellent questions, Daisy. Look at how many girls never get an education because they must carry water for household chores.

    Then there’s the story of the young Nobel Prize-winner, Mahala, from Pakistan. Her father, a teacher with a school, advocated for girls’ education as did his brave daughter. The Taliban shot Mahala for daring to advocate for girls’ education. She, thankfully, survived.

    She said that we can end terrorism through education.

  443. @Daisy,

    Thanks for the wonderful research you do and the terrific articles that you post.
    I always learn something new from what you post and I appreciate your diligence.

  444. Velour wrote:

    She, thankfully, survived

    Malala has done more than survive ….. much more!
    Now, there’s a real “pistol”!

  445. Velour wrote:

    Excellent questions, Daisy. Look at how many girls never get an education because they must carry water for household chores.
    Then there’s the story of the young Nobel Prize-winner, Mahala, from Pakistan. Her father, a teacher with a school, advocated for girls’ education as did his brave daughter. The Taliban shot Mahala for daring to advocate for girls’ education. She, thankfully, survived.

    She said that we can end terrorism through education.

    One of the things that kills me about Kassian complaining that women trying to assert their rights or obtain rights and condemning this as being feminism, is that you do have women and girls in other nations who are more oppressed than in the USA.

    If those girls or women were to try to fight against that oppression (whatever it may be, refusing women the ability to drive, to receive an education, to stop being sold into the sex trade), Kassian would have to object to that as being “feminist” and condemn it, to be consistent.

    She’d probably be okay with girls/women fighting against those forms of sexism in other nations, but is not okay with her for American women fighting against other types of sexism in the USA.

    Velour said,

    Thanks for the wonderful research you do and the terrific articles that you post.
    I always learn something new from what you post and I appreciate your diligence.

    You’re very welcome 🙂

  446. Bill M wrote:

    How much time will he have to spend in a treatment facility before being proclaimed ready to re-enter ministry?

    How long does it take to write a book about his miraculous instant recovery?

  447. Friend wrote:

    How long does it take to write a book about his miraculous instant recovery?

    I vote for already done and waiting – until the time is “right” – to be published!

  448. Daisy wrote:

    One of the things that kills me about Kassian complaining that women trying to assert their rights or obtain rights and condemning this as being feminism, is that you do have women and girls in other nations who are more oppressed than in the USA.
    If those girls or women were to try to fight against that oppression (whatever it may be, refusing women the ability to drive, to receive an education, to stop being sold into the sex trade), Kassian would have to object to that as being “feminist” and condemn it, to be consistent.

    You’re trying to make sense out of the nonsensical, but you’re right.

    Off-topic alert:

    This weekend, while on the sofa suffering from a horrible sinus infection and laryngitis, I read Girl at the End of the World by Elizabeth Esther. I read it all on one day. It’s really a can’t-put-it-down book. Esther was raised in The Assembly fundamentalist cult, and the book details her childhood and how she and her husband left the cult with their marriage and faith intact. Well, her faith was intact, but she suffered from PTSD when reading the Bible or going to a church service. The book talks about how she got over that. A really good read!

  449. Nancy2 wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    She, thankfully, survived
    Malala has done more than survive ….. much more!
    Now, there’s a real “pistol”!

    Yes, Nancy2, she’s done much more than survive. Here is here story by Diane Sawyer:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXvs1vwiD0M

    Her 2014 Nobel Prize-winning speech:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOqIotJrFVM

    Malala took bullets to advance girls’ and womens’ rights. And Mary Kassian, ingrate that she is, has rights that other women fought for (education, voting, etc.).

  450. Friend wrote:

    this message would have lodged in my mind and added a false worry to my many, many genuine worries.

    Yes, so unnecessary to heap guilt on people for things like this!!!

    If you want to give organization tips, great. I love that stuff because I’m not good at it. But don’t make it biblical just because you are a Christian, and don’t take it way way too far like she did either! Ridiculous.

  451. @ Friend:

    One more thing, sometimes a mess is a sign of something else in a persons life that needs to be addressed like stress or depression. In those cases guilt is absolutely counterproductive.

  452. @ Daisy:
    The whole thing is cult 101. It is like spiritually sanctioned voyeurism. Creepy.

    but just for grins, let’s blow their tiny minds in such a meeting.

    Asking a potential male candidate for membership:

    Why did you get a divorce?

    Answer: She refused to submit to my headship. The judge refused my motion on the matter and had the nerve to lecture me on my wife’s freedom to not submit. Of course the judge was obviously a pagan. As far as I am concerned, I am still her spiritual head. She had no biblical standing to act as her own head.

  453. @ Daisy:
    Here is one that makes them insane:

    Tell us about your conversion.

    Answer: I just asked Jesus into my heart

    Hee hee.

  454. Deb wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    *Members were screamed at for not attending Bible studies at homes.
    I can absolutely believe this. Just before we launched this blog, I was involved in a church re-plant. We had a Q&A session, and someone asked this question:
    “What if I decide not to participate in a community group?”
    One of the two pastor-elders responded:
    “Then you will be put under church discipline.”
    That was the last straw for me!   And I had been so excited about the church re-plant throughout the process.  
    These two men are affiliated with SEBTS.

    Deb, how is their conduct anywhere close to Jesus?

    My ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite pastor demanded answers from me about why I didn’t go to Bible study on a weeknight. Me staring back at him coldly: “Because I’m at work and then in commute traffic. I’m not back in time.”

  455. Bill M wrote:

    It is a horrendous read, it is not a template for an interview but for an interrogation. Rather than being horrified, I supposed most people who go through one of these wringers feel glad they will be approved by men. And thus the seed of abuse begins to grow for the new recruit.

    This is it. The fact you have to be approved to be accepted appeals to people. An exclusive club.

    This is the part I really focus on. They appeal to the weak link in people. Group acceptance.

    Let us encourage people to value themselves, be independent thinkers and seek such who are so inclined.

  456. Friend wrote:

    At a certain earlier time in my life, this message would have lodged in my mind and added a false worry to my many, many genuine worries. How dare she?

    Just one more Pharisee with a bag o’ heavy burdens who’s on the lookout for conscience-sensitive people upon whom she can wrap her burden-bags around their necks and strap it to their backs.

  457. Deb wrote:

    Like the serpent in Eden, Kassian pointed out that evil seeks to slither into the lives of women in a number of ways.

    Wow, who wrote that copy? It equates Kassian with the serpent. Accidental accuracy perhaps… 😉

  458. Friend wrote:

    DO RECOGNIZE THAT CLOSET CHAOS IS USUALLY A SYMPTOM OF AN UNDERLYING PROBLEM

    That girl needs to learn to prioritize!
    Even if I did go the “submissive wife route”, when I have time to worry about my closet, I don’t have the energy to do so! I picked a big bucket of tomatoes this morning. I just scalded my second pot of them. I have quart jars in the dish drainer (soap bubble free!). I have pots and canners every where ……… I prepare our meals from scratch 99% of the time. I very rarely serve anything “quick fix” and we go out to eat about once every other week.

    It’s more important to me to keep my kitchen organized and efficient than my closets. I keep my canning jars and canners, etc in the attic, so an organized attic is more important to me than a clothes closet.
    Tomorrow – I take Silver King sweet corn from our garden to my daughter (she lives in town, but we grow extra for her, her hubby, and her step-sons and she cans and freezes.). When I leave her house, I’m stopping by Wal-mart to get groceries. By the time I get home, I’ll be exhausted.
    Wed. – hopefully, I’ll be pickling beets. If the beets aren’t ready, I’ll have squash.
    With my health problems, I have to take breaks, or I get dangerous with knives, glass objects, and large pots of boiling water.

    Come on over, Brent K! I have auto-immune induced Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I could use a little help, here! If it’s really that important, would you rinse the soap bubbles off of my canning jars while I organize my closet, please?

    Okay, I have scalded tomatoes waiting. Time for me to go back to work.

  459. Friend wrote:

    DO RECOGNIZE THAT CLOSET CHAOS IS USUALLY A SYMPTOM OF AN UNDERLYING PROBLEM
    That girl needs to learn to prioritize!

    If Mary Kassian wanted to be like Jesus she wouldn’t have any closets, changes of clothes, etc. After all, Jesus didn’t.

  460. Lydia wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    Here is one that makes them insane:

    Tell us about your conversion.

    Answer: I just asked Jesus into my heart

    Hee hee.

    Hee. I understand they hate that but I’m not 100% sure why…is it because they don’t believe in free will?

  461. Friend wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    Dos and Don’t For Your Next Wardrobe Crisis by M. Kassian
    http://girlsgonewise.com/dos-and-donts-for-your-next-wardrobe-crisis/
    This kind of burned me up:
    DO RECOGNIZE THAT CLOSET CHAOS IS USUALLY A SYMPTOM OF AN UNDERLYING PROBLEM

    My closets are immaculate right now, but only because we are in the process of selling our house.

    I can say with absolute certainly that six months ago, when my closets were not so clean, that the only difference from then and now is that I really want to sell our house.

  462. Velour wrote:

    If Mary Kassian wanted to be like Jesus she wouldn’t have any closets, changes of clothes, etc. After all, Jesus didn’t.

    *Velour dropped the mic and left the stage*

  463. Burwell wrote:

    To add error to error, they they use 10 percent as a baseline and plant the idea of increasing the percentage all while at the introductory interview.

    I would be very inclined to tell the interviewer(s) to s tick it in their ears. No one deserves an inquisition like this.

  464. Friend wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Dos and Don’t For Your Next Wardrobe Crisis by M. Kassian
    http://girlsgonewise.com/dos-and-donts-for-your-next-wardrobe-crisis/

    This kind of burned me up:

    DO RECOGNIZE THAT CLOSET CHAOS IS USUALLY A SYMPTOM OF AN UNDERLYING PROBLEM

    At a certain earlier time in my life, this message would have lodged in my mind and added a false worry to my many, many genuine worries. How dare she?

    This reminds me of something that stuck in my head from the Biblical Counseling crowd, about how regularly being late was a spiritual problem, not just a scheduling problem. As this pathetic “sound bite theology” makes no distinction for non-Western cultures that have a different concept of time and lateness or for those who have medical, or other, hindrances, it upset me then and it continues to upset me now.

    These people suffer from what I consider “American Christianity Problems” (i.e., First World Problems of the American Christian kind).

  465. Burwell wrote:

    Not only do they ask the intrusive questions about previous marriage(s) and reconciliation (remember, this is an introductory interview … the church has not invested any time or effort into the person yet), they also ask for the candidate’s work address. Why is that even relevant? Do they want the boss’ name and phone number as well?

    It’s a wonder they get anyone to join at all.

  466. Burwell wrote:

    Lowlandseer wrote:
    Albert Mohler’s bio repeatedly refers to him having undertaken research at the University of Oxford but there is no mention of when and what those studies were. This leads me to wonder if these were formal, accredited studies or informal ones

    [Burwell wrote:] LLS – did you receive a satisfactory answer to your question/thought?

    Lowlandseer, I like your thought about Regent’s Park College, Oxford. If he took a group trip to the UK and stayed there and attended a lecture or two, he might have inflated this into something more impressive. Some Oxford colleges do offer small “academic” tour groups a taste of the educational system. Most people who attend such sessions do not confuse them with post-doctoral research, though. (I know of no specifics about group visits to Regent’s Park.)

  467. Burwell wrote:

    This reminds me of something that stuck in my head from the Biblical Counseling crowd, about how regularly being late was a spiritual problem, not just a scheduling problem. As this pathetic “sound bite theology” makes no distinction for non-Western cultures that have a different concept of time and lateness or for those who have medical, or other, hindrances, it upset me then and it continues to upset me now.

    I dunno, a lot of people I know are constantly late, and not just by a little, but by hours. And this being when they know people are waiting for them, and when they really didn’t have any hindrance except just not caring about whether or not people are sitting there waiting. I’ve had people tell me they were playing video games, cleaning, or even just watching TV. And these people are always on time for work or certain hobbies that are important to them.

    I adjust by telling them to be somewhere an hour earlier than it starts.

  468. Christiane wrote:

    What are the real purposes of these ‘groups’, anyway? Do they have the potential of being destructive to the dignity and privacy of the members? Are they used for purposes of intimidation and propaganda?

    The purpose of these groups, in my opinion, is another tactic of the 1970’s heavy-Shepherding Movement (some of its Florida founders who repented of its un-Biblicalness and many abuses).
    The point is to keep people constantly busy in church activities, constantly tired out, constantly under watch, so they are tired and don’t develop outside relationships and critical thinking skills. It is a mind control technique.

    Because once they sit back and disengage, know outsiders, have time away, they begin to question this authoritarian, fraudulent system.

  469. ishy wrote:

    My closets are immaculate right now, but only because we are in the process of selling our house.

    What!?!? Your deeply hidden spiritual problems did not vanish the moment you finished cleaning the last closet? I was sure I could get right with God this way… 😉

  470. ishy wrote:

    And this being when they know people are waiting for them, and when they really didn’t have any hindrance except just not caring about whether or not people are sitting there waiting.

    I am not chronically late (I have to work very hard to be just on time not early) so that drives me crazy but I have friends and a mother who are always late and for my mom I have decided there reason she is generally late is because she plans way too many things to do in the time she actually has. If she has an hour she plans enough for two!

    Annoying sometimes but it’s not always lack of caring for others.

  471. ishy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    If Mary Kassian wanted to be like Jesus she wouldn’t have any closets, changes of clothes, etc. After all, Jesus didn’t.
    *Velour dropped the mic and left the stage*

    ROFL.

  472. Lydia wrote:

    This is the part I really focus on. They appeal to the weak link in people. Group acceptance.

    BINGO. That and the desire in all humans to be wanted.

  473. Well, my closets are totally organized, even the hangers are color coded. Seriously. I am by nature organized, systematized, containerized, arrange things in clusters based on function, organize work according to the best use of time, and do this basically without thinking about it because that is what my personality type does. ISTJ. Textbook case. So what I want to know is if I can get some spiritual badge to sew on my organized handbag which will let me get credit for this as a spiritual discipline even though it is neither spiritual nor discipline? Dual credit or something?

    On the other hand I despise cleaning. I rather believe that a certain level of constant exposure to germs helps one’s immune system build up antibodies for the coming post-antibiotic era. Maybe if I just don’t mention the flip side like that I could line up a few seminars as a speaker?

    Closets? Kitchen counters? Car trunks? This is not in the bible. People need to be who they are.

    A spotless bathroom is a sign of a wasted life.

  474. Lydia wrote:

    Answer: She refused to submit to my headship. The judge refused my motion on the matter and had the nerve to lecture me on my wife’s freedom to not submit. Of course the judge was obviously a pagan. As far as I am concerned, I am still her spiritual head. She had no biblical standing to act as her own head.

    I once heard a Messianic Jew declare with all the authority he could muster from the Tenakh that Hadassah (Esther) could not have done what she did without Mordecai as her ‘covering’.

  475. Lea wrote:

    Annoying sometimes but it’s not always lack of caring for others.

    I know that’s true for some people, but I don’t think it is for a lot of the people I know. I don’t mind if people are sometimes late, or always 15 minutes late, or were really doing things that were important, like convincing a child that they can’t go out in their underwear.

    I do mind when friends ask me to meet them for a movie, then show up for the showing after the one for which they asked to meet and said they had to jump into a video game guild event that had just been announced, and didn’t answer the phone because they were using headphones. Or a dinner party at 7, and they show up at 11 and expect that everyone waited for them to eat.

    It’s not so much the being late as the not caring.

  476. Muff Potter wrote:

    BINGO. That and the desire in all humans to be wanted.

    Just a thought, but ……….
    Did the beginning of the big shepherding movements coincided roughly with the time period when the U.S. became a more mobile, urban society? ISTM that young adult children who move far away from home and family would be more susceptible and open to shepherding movements. I may be way off the mark here, but I do wonder if there might be a connection.

  477. Nancy2 wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:
    BINGO. That and the desire in all humans to be wanted.
    Just a thought, but ……….
    Did the beginning of the big shepherding movements coincided roughly with the time period when the U.S. became a more mobile, urban society? ISTM that young adult children who move far away from home and family would be more susceptible and open to shepherding movements. I may be way off the mark here, but I do wonder if there might be a connection.

    I am actually going to be writing on my blog about how abusive ministries are targeting singles because churches have really dropped the ball in ministering to singles.

    It’d be hard for the complementarians to really pull that off with that demographic, though. But I believe there is a connection, as you say.

  478. Sopwith wrote:

    Please note that ‘most’ if not all of these individuals were/are Calvinists.

    They put their common brand of authoritarianism/fundamentalism above any concerns of soteriology.

  479. ishy wrote:

    they also ask for the candidate’s work address. Why is that even relevant?

    well, in the event that the new member needs to be harassed, all this freely given ammunition he donated will be used against him …… church discipline? member decides to leave the Church? member dares to criticize the PASTOR and his gang?

    I’ve heard enough to know that these strange places are NOT ‘Churches’. I’m not sure WHAT they are, but may God help their victims.

  480. Lea wrote:

    There is nothing sinister about a home group, it’s the requirement that makes it concerning.

    There are other issues with them as well.

    Some are limited to rehashing whatever the pastor was preaching/teaching the Sunday before.

    Some are sin-sniffing sessions.

    Some are used as monitoring systems in which the small-group leader reports back to the pastor/elders anyone who might sound like their heading off the reservation.

    Some use software designed for churches & their small groups. Various software packages are available to monitor/record the following data (some duplication from the copy/paste from the different software vendors:

    …manage and track members and visitors, manage donations, ability to track giving, child check in, picture directories, gives churches the ability to manage and control their congregation, ministry tracking, will grow your ministry, increase donations, and engage more volunteers, while reducing the frustration around the church office, simplify assimilation, discipleship, event management, contribution management,

    I know that it has also been an issue in small groups, that the participants aren’t always informed initially that whatever they say in the small group meeting can/will be reported to the leadership.

  481. Lowlandseer wrote:

    @ Friend:
    I just found this link on their website. They have an arrangement with four US colleges Georgetown (Kentucky), William Jewell (Missouri), Mercer (Georgia), and Columbus State, Georgia that allows their students to go there as “Visiting Students” for 1-3 terms.

    http://www.rpc.ox.ac.uk/portfolio_page/visiting-students/

    Interesting… looks like a junior year abroad program, as it lists undergraduates as the eligible students. They don’t sit for Oxford’s exams, and they don’t come out with a certificate; reports are sent back to the student’s university outside the UK. The educational system at Oxford is so different from others that this is probably the best one-year arrangement for American undergrads. I’m also thinking that the network is designed to attract Baptist undergrads, as the four colleges you cite are not the very most prominent in the USA.

    I don’t think this is what Mohler did. I’m still imagining some kind of educational tour, conference, etc. He did his undergrad at Samford, which does not show a current program at Oxford. He lists Oxford last in this graf:

    A native of Lakeland, Fla., Dr. Mohler was a Faculty Scholar at Florida Atlantic University before receiving his Bachelor of Arts degree from Samford University in Birmingham, Ala. He holds a master of divinity degree and the doctor of philosophy (in systematic and historical theology) from Southern Seminary. He has pursued additional study at the St. Meinrad School of Theology and has done research at University of Oxford (England).

  482. okrapod wrote:

    A spotless bathroom is a sign of a wasted life.

    For me it is a sign that company is coming or that I’m really emotionally stirred up. Otherwise I agree!!

  483. ishy wrote:

    do mind when friends ask me to meet them for a movie, then show up for the showing after the one for which they asked to meet and said they had to jump into a video game guild event that had just been announced,

    Well yes. I would never go to the movies with that person again.

  484. okrapod wrote:

    A spotless bathroom is a sign of a wasted life.

    My best friend once said ‘Housekeeping is a second-rate passion.” (Her house was a glorious mess, with bookshelves overloaded, books piled up on the tables and even on the floors, ancient oriental carpets from past generations of her family, the art on her walls included her father’s watercolors, and in the kitchen, she put down Borax (or some such powder) to discourage the ants from coming in, no bug killers . . . ‘let them live’ she said, ‘let them live’. HOWEVER, no one made a better cup of tea and no where could you find better conversation. She reviewed books in her column for a newspaper, and once had an essay published in the literary section of the NY Times Magazine.

    I like eccentric, off-beat people who march to their own drummer. I hope to be eccentric when I am really old. I’m working on it. 🙂

  485. Nancy2 wrote:

    Just a thought, but ……….
    Did the beginning of the big shepherding movements coincided roughly with the time period when the U.S. became a more mobile, urban society?

    I think it played a role yes. So did Paul Simon…

    Cathy, I’m lost, I said though I knew she was sleeping
    And I’m empty and aching and I don’t know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They’ve all come to look for America
    All come to look for America
    All come to look for America

    The angst of youth doesn’t have the experience of age, so yeah, it’s easy to jump when you’re promised safety and belonging far from home.

  486. okrapod wrote:

    God is sovereign, but not to the point of some universal determinism like the neo-cals are saying. But the fact that God does not treat everyone the same at all times and every way is obvious from scripture, both OT and NT. And this differentiation is prophesied for the time of judgment in the imagery of sheep and goats. He does choose some and not others for various things: Isaac but not Ishmael; Jacob but not Esau. The parable of the sower shows that not all the good seed produces good results since there are other variables, and in that parable Jesus did not say that somehow it would all work out in the end for the plants which failed to survive.

    So we western christians find that sort of thing somehow unjust or unmerciful because it may not fit our ideas of justice and mercy. And then we progress to the thinking that God does too do things the way we think He ought to, just because. The next step is to pick and choose within scripture to try to prove that we are correct, to play with word definitions and philosophical concepts and emotional manipulation until we can convince others that we are correct–with the purpose then of convincing ourselves that we are correct. But it does not change reality. Nobody backs God into a corner. God is sovereign. That is not a dirty word; it is a reality. He is also just and merciful-by His own definitions and standards, in His own time, for His own purposes. His purposes are always good.

    No, I am not a calvinist, at all, but I will not let the excesses and deficiencies of calvinism rob me of the idea of the sovereignty of God.

    This is really good. Thank you.

  487. Slanderous Accusations against Egalitarians
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2015/02/18/slanderous-accusations-against-egalitarians/

    Snippets:
    ——-
    [by Mimi Haddad]

    [Now to the accusation of liberalism by complementarians:] The term “liberal” is used to suggest that egalitarians place their feminist ideals—their demand for social equality with men in any sphere—ahead of a commitment to the authority of scripture.
    Rather than allowing scripture to shape culture, egalitarians are accused of giving secular culture greater authority than the Bible.
    The charge of “liberal” has typically implied that the teachings of scripture have been ignored in the wake of self-interest and cultural pressure.

    [by McKnight]: Haddad quotes Alvera with this: You know, it wasn’t until 1950 that women preachers were considered liberal. Before that, no one thought twice about women preaching.”

    [Haddard]: Therefore, the egalitarian movement was a deeply biblical movement that began, not in the 1970s with secular feminists, but in the 1800s with evangelicals such as A. Gordon, Catherine Booth, Katharine Bushnell and others.
    It was on their shoulders that future generations of evangelicals stood in advancing the biblical foundations for women’s leadership.

  488. @ Gram3:
    The more I visit the 9 Marks webpage, the more I am troubled by what they are promoting in the name of he “Reformed Faith”.The classic “Reformed” work on the nature of the church is, in my opinion, James Bannerman’s ‘The Church of Christ’. This is his definition of membership –

    “A visible profession of belief in the Gospel—comprehending under the word profession not only the confession of the lips, but also a corresponding life and conduct—is the single qualification necessary to rank a man a member of the visible Church of Christ.”

    No forms, no questionnaire, no Star Chamber interrogation.

    In his critique of Independent polity he makes this point –

    “…the principles of the Independents in regard to Church membership seem to transfer the responsibility of the admission or non-admission of parties to the Christian Church, from a ground on which it may be competent to exercise it, to a ground on which it is not competent to exercise it. So long as the terms of Church membership are acknowledged to be a visible religious profession, and a corresponding character and conduct to accredit it, there can, with ordinary intelligence and singleness of desire for the purity of the house of God, be no great difficulty in deciding upon such kind of evidence. Thus far, and up to this point, there is a definite rule to walk by, and a competent knowledge to enable the office-bearers of the Christian society to judge in the matter. They have power to judge of the outward profession and outward conduct of the candidate for Church membership; the reality of what is unseen and cannot be certainly known in the inner man,—it is plain that there is a task committed to them which they are utterly incompetent and unqualified to discharge. They can be no witness to the secret work of God done on the soul of a brother………In erecting a spiritual inquisition for the judgment of such matters, they are setting up a tribunal whose inquiries they have not knowledge to direct, and whose decisions they have not received authority to pronounce.”

    I’ll mention briefly too Jonathan Leeman’ s latest book ‘Political Church: The Local Assembly as Embassy of Christ’s Rule’ in which he applies his Keys of the Kingdom texts (Matt.16; 18; 28) to the world of politics. It seems they not only want to rule your soul, they want to rule the world as well!

    However Bannerman also shoots down that argument by saying –

    “the Christian Church, in reference to the world in which it is found, is designed and fitted to be a witness for Christ, and not a substitute for Christ…..At the mouth of two witnesses, at the least, is a testimony for Christ declared and confirmed to the world. That Spirit which He left behind Him on the earth is ever witnessing to the hearts and consciences of men on behalf of a Saviour. Unseen, but not unfelt, the Holy Ghost is always testifying to the souls of men in favour of Christ…….and, over and above the Spirit of God in the heart, there is the Church of God appealing to the outward ear and eye, and lifting up a public testimony, seen and known of all men. By the Word of Christ, which it declares in the hearing of all, by the ordinances of Christ, which it administers in His name, by the authority of Christ, which it exercises in subordination to His appointment, the Church is intended and adapted to be a standing and outward witness on behalf of Christ on the earth.”

    The Church is a Witness, not a substitute, for Christ. It seems to me that they are arguing against the separation of Church and State and by so doing are attacking your First Amendment. Their ambition knows no bounds.

    Apologies for the rant but they are about to do to Covenant Theology what they did to Calvinism.

  489. ishy wrote:

    I am actually going to be writing on my blog about how abusive ministries are targeting singles because churches have really dropped the ball in ministering to singles.
    It’d be hard for the complementarians to really pull that off with that demographic, though. But I believe there is a connection, as you say.

    My ex-NeoCalvinist/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite church has this practice honed. They targeted the near by private, elite Stanford University students for Bible studies. Both undergraduate and graduate students. They also targeted Asian students, many of whom come from cultures that have rules of respect and obeying elders, not rocking the boat, etc.
    Then once they have hooked those students, they have them invite their friends.

    My ex-NeoCalvinist church bypassed the poorer state university, San Jose State, for Bible studies. Not enough “bang for the buck”.

    Like Lydia and others have pointed out these Young, Restless and Reformed church planters don’t usually plant churches in low-income areas. My ex-church rents church space from Seventh Day Adventists with established churches and facilities in high net-worth neighborhoods.

  490. Nancy2 wrote:

    Did the beginning of the big shepherding movements coincided roughly with the time period when the U.S. became a more mobile, urban society? ISTM that young adult children who move far away from home and family would be more susceptible and open to shepherding movements. I may be way off the mark here, but I do wonder if there might be a connection.

    It’s entirely possible. I’d be interested in hearing what Gram3’s and others’ thoughts are on this subject.

    Ken Blue (pastor) wrote in his book Healing Spiritual Abuse that he noticed that many people were predisposed to abusive, shepherding churches by having had abusive childhoods, with child abuse, alcoholism, and abandonment. They don’t know what normal is, what healthy is, and get hooked in these systems.