"I had preached for this church for a year and a half and they still called me."
Dennis Darville (44.33 mark)
Dennis Darville – Christ Covenant Church Facebook
In the wake of the annual gathering of Southern Baptists in St. Louis, I decided to take a look at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary's website, Between the Times, to see whether they had written about the election for SBC president that just took place. After all, J.D. Greear (one of the candidates) has two advanced degrees from Southeastern and is much beloved by everyone there.
I scrolled down to June 15th (the second day of the SBC meeting), and was quite surprised by what I saw. The post, which was entitled The Calling of God and the Pastoral Search Process, featured a conversation between John Ewart, Associate Vice President for Project Development (link), and Dennis Darville, who served on staff at Southeastern for over a decade. Here is the explanation under the video:
Recently, Dr. John Ewart and Dennis Darville sat down to discuss and give tips on how to properly conduct a pastor search committee.
Just after the 2 minute mark, John Ewart introduced Dennis Darville with these words:
I'm really excited my friend is here Dennis Darville – Pastor, Pastor Dennis Darville. Dennis Darville was here at Southeastern with us full time for many years as a vice president. He was in charge of everything from communications to kinda the financial support of the institution and oversaw a lot of our offices and one of my bosses and did a great job for us. God called him away to go full time at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount, North Carolina, America as the Pastor of Preaching and Leadership there, so you've been there three years now you were just telling me.
I immediately knew that the video wasn't all that 'recent' because Dennis Darville is no longer pastoring at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount (FBC Rocky Mount). It turns out the video was posted to Vimeo a year ago. So what happened at FBC Rocky Mount, and why is Darville no longer the pastor?
Perhaps it's best to start at the beginning…
When FBC Rocky Mount's pastor retired, the congregation began seeking a new pastor. At that time the church was healthy with a fellowship of nearly a thousand (perhaps more), which we believe to be fairly large for a town the size of Rocky Mount (located about an hour east of Raleigh).
According to the About Us section of the church website:
First Baptist Church of Rocky Mount was organized in 1880. We are associated with the Southern Baptist Convention, the North Carolina Baptist State Convention and the North Roanoke Baptist Association.
Dennis Darville became interim pastor at FBC Rocky Mount on January 1, 2012. In the SEBTS video, Darville states (at the 40.16 mark):
The search committee that I went through when I just had the great privilege of now being the lead pastor at First Baptist Church Rocky Mount, it was men and women and it was across all age stratas – eighty all the way down into the probably the youngest was maybe thirties.
Then at the 43.25 mark, Darville says:
When I went to this search committee three years ago, I had a unique situation in that I went through an interview process with this search committee just to do their interim, and they took me through the ringer. They asked a lot of questions, and there were three men being considered and I was one and quite frankly I was less credentialed than the other two in terms of academia. I had my Masters, and the other two gentlemen had their Ph.D's, and they were just looking for an interim and by God's sovereign grace they said "Would you come and be our interim?" But the interim for this church was not just come preach for us on Sunday. We want you to lead our on Wednesday nights. We want you to lead our staff meetings on Tuesday morning, and I've now got a full time job here [at SEBTS]. I got permission to do all that, and so I'm doing that. The first year and a half was fantastic because I actually got to know a large and sizeable staff, and they're still with me today other than my worship pastor who passed away unexpectedly just a few weeks back. And so I had preached for this church for a year and a half, and they still called me.
The Biblical Recorder made the following announcement on March 21, 2013:
First Baptist Church of Rocky Mount has called a Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary vice president as its new senior pastor.
Dennis Darville, 56, currently Southeastern’s vice president for institutional advancement, will start at First Baptist on May 1. Darville had been the church’s interim pastor since Jan. 1, 2012.
“My prayer for First Baptist Church Rocky Mount is that God would give us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation of the knowledge of Him through His Word … That He would open our minds to see Jesus,” Darville said in a brochure distributed to church members.
While serving as lead pastor at FBC Rocky Mount, the following biographical information regarding Darville was included on the church website:
Dennis Darville was born in McComb, Mississippi. He received his Bachelor of Arts in Biblical Studies from The College at Southeastern and received his Masters in Divinity from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Dennis' professional background is diverse. He served twelve years as a campus minister, ministering to college students, at the University of Georgia and then moving to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He was also involved in planting a campus church in Houston, TX.
After serving as a campus minister, Dennis left the campus for the marketplace. Over a twelve year span, he served as National Sales Manager of Ashworth Golf, Vice President of Greg Norman Apparel, and another few years as Vice President of PING Apparel. Those years taught him a wealth of information, not the least of which is the need to see the primacy of Christ in all spheres of life and the urgent need for kingdom-perspective and balance. Dennis has also had the privilege of serving as an interim pastor, campus speaker and corporate consultant.
Most recently Dennis served (2007-2012) as Vice President of Institutional Advancement at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Additionally, he is a member of the Board of Links Players International, an international ministry using the game of golf as a platform to reach men and women for Christ. He also serves on the Committee for the Scripture and Hermeneutics Seminar and is a member of the Evangelical Theological Society.
I copied this information from the church website while Darville was still pastoring at FBC Rocky Mount – it has since been removed.
We understand that Darville served as a 'campus minister' with Maranatha Campus Ministries in the 1980s. In this bio and early in the SEBTS video, he mentions being involved in a campus ministry; however, he does not identify it.
The youth pastors at FBC Rocky Mount who were there before Darville arrived had strong Neo-Calvinist leanings (I seem to recall reading on the church website that they were SEBTS grads), so they obviously had great rapport with someone coming from the Southeastern family.
Not long after Darville was hired as Pastor of Preaching and Leadership in 2013, he began to express his desire to set up an elder-led form of church government, with some of the pastors serving as elders. Obviously, this would give him more control. As we understand it, the congregation voted AGAINST an elder-led system.
Once the members of FBC Rocky Mount took a strong stand against having elders rule the church, things began to deteriorate. Church discipline, charges of insubordination, and angry confrontations with members behind closed doors occurred. The pastors appeared to become obsessed with congregational submission.
In the summer of 2015, Darville spoke at MAN CAMP with colleagues from Southeastern. According to the Facebook page, 187 people were invited, and 29 planned to attend. Here is a screen shot of information about the event.
Then in early 2016 a 'Church Covenant Study' was announced. In the wake of a push for an elder-led church, it did not go over well…
Finally, in early February 2016, Dennis Darville asked for a 'Vote of Confidence'. I understand that the deacons wanted to bring in a third party to help the church move through some 'issues', but the pastoral staff turned this idea down. On February 14, 2016 (a Sunday as well as Valentine's Day), FBC Rocky Mount members cast their votes. The congregation voted 60/40 in favor of the staff, but Dennis Darville and the entire staff (with the exception of one associate pastor and a music assistant) immediately resigned. Most of the staff (Tim Griffin, Mike Avery, and Jack Helm) had been there before Darville was hired. It is widely believed that Dennis Darville and his lieutenants planned to resign well before the 'vote of confidence'.
Not long after this, a new church formed in Rocky Mount with Darville as the lead pastor. Obviously, this had been in the works for some time… As you might imagine, quite a few congregants demonstrated their loyalty to their pastors by leaving FBC Rocky Mount. The new church plant – Christ Covenant Church – was launched on Easter Sunday. The photo at the top of the post is from the church launch. Here is their Facebook page. The logo on the left is a screen shot from the church's FB account. I am left wondering how these pastors are able to maintain their lifestyles after walking away from the full-time positions at FBC Rocky Mount. Is this a church plant that has received special funding from the NAMB? I understand that it is impossible to get any information out of the IMB or the NAMB regarding the funding of church plants. As a member of a Southern Baptist church, I find that very troubling.
Incidentally, Christ Covenant Church meets on the campus of North Carolina Wesleyan College in Rocky Mount. Oh, the irony! The younger FBC pastors had organized a ministry outreach on this college campus not long after Dennis Darville was hired at FBC Rocky Mount, and this group, along with those who left FBC Rocky Mount, appears to be the foundation of this new work.
Keep in mind that it's only been four months since these pastors resigned from FBC Rocky Mount. In that short amount of time, families have been split and much harm has been done. Because of Dennis Darville's knowledge of Scripture and oratorical skills, many congregants have chosen to follow him to the new church plant. Those mesmerized by Darville refuse to believe the stories told by members who experienced verbal abuse behind closed doors.
FBC Rocky Mount's staff is now quite small, with the church having guest preachers fill the pulpit every Sunday. I decided to peruse the list of speakers in the 'Sermons' section of the church website and discovered that two of the pastors who have preached numerous times since Darville's departure have strong ties to SEBTS and both were pastors at churches that are 'elder-led'. One is working on his Ph.D. at Southeastern and the other is a professor there.
Perhaps you now understand why I thought it terribly unwise for Southeastern to feature this year old video of Dennis Darville with no update regarding his pastoral status. How irresponsible to regard him as an expert on the pastoral search process given what recently happened at his former church.
This Between the Times post provides a link to a 39 page packet of information that has been put together for churches wanting to hire a pastor as well as those who are pastoral candidates. Dee will be discussing this material in our upcoming post, and she will share some key questions that we believe pastor search committees should be asking pastoral candidates that were not included in the packet put together by SEBTS.
Since church planting is such a hot topic, especially in seminary circles, perhaps John Ewart will once again feature Dennis Darville — this time discussing his 'new work' in Rocky Mount.
Christiane wrote:
This is something else that concerns me. Your “church” “caused” the pain. Your church, like other top down churches, protected the perverts for decades.
To make a statement that your “church is in pain” lumps innocent victims into the same category as the pervs in power and those who protected them. As if they are all in pain. I don’t see that as just for the innocent victims. Perhaps you did not mean it that way. Not sure. I am not convinced every single molesting priest has been outed.
BL wrote:
I find Christiane’s posts on here to be lovely and insightful.
One of the little old ladies who brought me to Christ was a Catholic. I, however, am a Protestant. Her love of the Lord shined through in everything she did. We have others here (Baptists, Eastern Orthodox Christians, Nazarenes) who also love their churches.
And while I am a Protestant, I have frequently said that Mother Teresa brought more people to a love of God by simply loving them and caring for them than all of the Bible verses and lectures could ever do.
I know many lovely Christians, in all denominations. I think elastigirl said it best a while back: all of the denominations seem to get some stuff right and some stuff wrong.
Lea wrote:
I love adding a little bit of jam to fruit smoothies. It really enhances the flavor.
BL wrote:
Props to a person who admits that they’ve messed up (haven’t we all?), is transparent about it, regrets it, has grown from it.
Max wrote:
So very well=said—thank you!
@ Velour: Great suggestion!
Velour wrote:
I have not said otherwise.
The following is what I was responding to.
Quoting Christiane:
She went to to find out how the word Gospel was defined by Southern Baptists by going to some unspecified internet forum/blog.
And from that she makes the assertion that Southern Baptists couldn’t explain what the Gospel was, she could get – no specific answers, only many answers, and conflicting answers.
But in the Roman Catholic church – she evidently got specific answers, singular answers, answers without conflict!
Those exact 3 assertions are straight from the denominational debate playbook, normally applied to all denominations outside of hers.
Lovely insights can be shared without a constant elevating of one’s chosen denom over another.
As I said earlier, Southern Baptists have had and do have issues, but an inability to elucidate the Gospel, is not one of them.
@ siteseer:
This may be one of the most bizarro things I’ve ever read. Makes you really wonder what goes on behind closed doors. Disturbing, I mean I know there’s odd stuff out there but…ugh. Doesn’t inspire a lot of faith in churches.
Max wrote:
My little old Southern Baptist Sunday School teaching, felt board figure making, Bible storytelling, koolaid & cookies VBSing grandmother would jaw-drop at the assertion that Southern Baptists are unable to clearly explain the Gospel.
@ BL:
I haven’t read all the posts to this point but how about we all say that we’re equally wrong and be done with it? I’ve yet to find anyone who can explain the bible adequately, and I know some fine Christians (like the group here).
I think we’re all stumbling in a dim room trying to make sense of the divine.
There are many roads to the truth, and if we entrench our position to the point where we’re hurling brickbats at the “opposite side” then there’s no point to continuing the dialog and an opportunity to learn from each other is squandered.
Denomination bashing isn’t going to end well.
Catherine wrote:
Thank you for speaking up, Catherine! May God greatly bless your church. 🙂
Jack wrote:
What about denomination promoting?
BL wrote:
I remember the felt boards. That is what the SBC needs more of: those precious grandmother’s who taught the beauty and simplicity of the Good News. The over ripe boys need some of their lessons. :o)
Deb wrote:
He did not push the elder led agenda until after he was voted in. He is NOT STUPID. But he did run FBC like elder rule on the sly.
Lydia wrote:
I’m taking a real shine to that description
Watchman on the Wall wrote:
God bless you and everyone else who has spoken the truth here—and spoken the truth in your church!
BL wrote:
Yeah, I know…I’m a woman. Rebellion against gospel imperatives is what I do. I need a head.
FW Rez wrote:
That is what I have seen and heard about in 9Marks influenced churches. It would be great if a 9Marks elder is reading here and could elaborate.
BL wrote:
Those making such assertions are 5-points shy of the Truth and would do well to toss their reformed indoctrination aside and attend an SBC Vacation Bible School this summer (in a traditional church, i.e.). They might just get it this time. They’ve been drinking the wrong koolaid lately.
@ Lydia:
The interims I recall were retired pastors.
Missy M wrote:
This is a case where definitions matter. Church traditions have varied, but excommunication has historically been much more severe than what Piper describes. In many traditions it involves complete shunning. In others it means consigning a person to hell because it cuts them off from the grace-giving sacraments. Check out this article: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Excommunication. The passage from Calvin’s institutes is interesting: ” ecclesiastical discipline does not allow us to be on familiar and intimate terms with excommunicated persons.”
My main point was not to compare and contrast the validity of the various interpretations of excommunication. Rather, it was to point out that Piper’s definition is much more mild than what most traditions have historically practiced, and he made it more public than I think was appropriate. It had a creep factor to it, in my opinion.
Jack wrote:
I think that was pretty much BL’s point.
BL wrote:
Considering the NeoCalvinists stealth take-over of the Southern Baptists, I’ve found the exact same problem as a Protestant: the inability to articulate the Gospel.
NeoCalvinists have added:
*The Elect (God knew in advance who was going to Heaven and who was going to Hell, which certainly makes Jesus irrelevant)
*Comp doctrine being part of The Gospel and that women are inferior (along with the fact that Jesus atoned for Adam’s sin but couldn’t atone for Eve’s therefore Eve is more powerful than Jesus)
*Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son heresy to justify Comp heresy: Jesus is subordinate therefore women are to be subordinate.
*Authoritarianism (elder-led) v. congregational votes.
*Membership Covenants. More authoritarian control.
*No respect for the priesthood of all believers.
*Excommunications and shunnings of anyone for dissent.
*A lack of Love.
*Rules, rules, and more rules.
*Absence of the message of The Gospel, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
*Holy Spirit can’t operate in believers’ lives and they need to be under the authority of leaders.
*the 1970’s heavy-Shepherding movement back under a new disguise.
Their “Gospel” is oppressive not liberating. There is no “Good News” in their version of it.
@ Lydia:
The flag on the play for me was saying Roman catholics weren’t christians. Didn’t read everything but if someone implies one denomination takes precedence over another, i’d call them on it. It ruins an otherwise enjoyable read. But, please, by all means carry on.
BL wrote:
Perhaps the NeoCalvinists haven’t made inroads where you’re at and there is a simple Gospel message that is still elucidated by Baptists. In the places the NeoCals have taken over it’s a different story and the Gospel message takes a back seat to Calvinism.
Jack wrote:
Where was that said?
Many denominations are discussed on this site and people often discuss the positive as well as negative of those denominations, including the Baptist denomination(?).
The many Baptists here are not in agreement as to whether or not Baptists are a denomination. Can I chuckle without anyone taking offence? 😉
@ BL:
I first got on the internet way back in 2004. Back in those days the Calvinists owned SBC Blogdom. There were no dissenting voices and they freely talked about how stupid and biblically illiterate people were who rejected Calvinism. Little by little nonCalvinists found the internet and started pushing back. Now back then as today the Calvinists all denied that Calvinists were deceptively taking over churches. If you show all these articles from places like 9Marks where they are boldly detailing how they’ve gone in and reformed a church they would just declare that you obviously don’t speak English so good because those articles don’t say what they clearly say.
Now I’ve been kinda on and off the internet through the years and it’s been interesting to watch some of the personalities who still hang out. In general – and this is painting with a broad brush I know but I think the audience here will understand this – Calvinists are mean people and many of them are deceptive people. So for instance there is a Calvinist pastor that some people think “oh he’s so wonderful..” because he agrees on some issues outside Calvinism. This is a guy – I think if my memory is correct who used to refer to himself as “Doctor” and when he was publically called out for not having a real actual doctorate threatened those calling him out. He was one of the meanest Calvinists back in the Old West of SBC Blogdom. He had an Associate at his church who was equally horrible. This associate left the SBC, converted to Catholicism and just recently wrote some idiotic post about racism and the SBC. Why idiotic? Because this guy went to DC, worked for a Congressmen until he was fired for racist tweets. Again these guys were as nasty and mean as anybody in SBC Blogdom. Now I say all that to say Do not trust the nicey nice people because they have a history (as an aside when you see someone who luvvves history and makes historical posts be sure to google and check out wikepedia for places where paragraphs are lifted into his posts without attribution) So when someone is proclaiming “I couldn’t get a definition.” It’s not because definitions weren’t given it’s just that this person loves to be all passive aggressive and launch attacks against those they’re questioning. Beware, be discerning and be very careful who you trust. Some of these blogs have archives – I think Founder’s still does and that was a big place where a lot of fighting went on and you’ll see some recognizable names and maybe be a bit suprised at how they act back then as to how they act today. But be careful.
Debi Calvet wrote:
Yes.
Velour wrote:
To the Calvinist, Calvinism = Gospel. One of their heroes of the faith, Charles Spurgeon, actually said this. From his autobiography: “I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.”
Velour wrote:
^^^^^^^^THIS THIS THIS THIS
__
Experiencing Entrench’d Un-Truth, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Jack,
hey,
I am so sorry that you appear to be “stumbling in a dim room trying to make sense of the divine”.
(thank you for sharing)
Yes, others share your desperate delema as well.
FYI: There is only one road to the genuine truth, and that being Jesus Christ, who said: “I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
Might wanna check those ‘brickbats’ at the TWW door fella, huh?
You have been given an opportunity from heaven itself to continuing the dialog with it and learn and be transformed from and by Christ Jesus’ message.
Please don’t ‘squander’ your opportunity!
Please be careful, as it ‘appears that You might be on the “opposite side” of God’s truth which is Jesus Himself.
(Please See The Bible For Details)
Please reach out to Jesus today, He is patiently waiting to give you the gift of eternal life; please reach out to Him –you’ll be very glad you did!
P.S. These New Calviniats have replaced the gospel that Jesus presented for one of Jonh Calvin’s new fangled retread of Augustinian Gnosticism, –this is ultimately what is fueling this 501(c)3 nefarious ‘religious’ detour.
ATB
Sopy
—
It’s been interesting to watch the discussion about elder-led vs congregational votes. It seems that most commenters here are very much against elder-led churches. My own experience has been different. The worst church conflict I’ve ever experienced was in a congregational voting church. The politics and back-stabbing were horrific. On the other hand, I’ve attended several amazing and healthy elder-let churches. My take is the form of church government is less important than the spirit behind it because ANY institution of mankind can be corrupted. If the elders are humble, transparent, and God-fearing (like the qualifications of elders listed int he Bible), things can go great. But I am absolutely against the way the YRR-types are using eldership to destroy churches. The sheeple need to stand against such power grabs.
Celia wrote:
I sincerely doubt that Christiane would encourage someone with questions regarding Roman Catholicism to spend time debating RC-focused internet blogs/forums.
However, that seems that is the exact process she used to gain the understanding upon which her earlier assertion was made.
Nor do I think it would be acceptable to her for a TWW participant to interject negative assertions about Roman Catholicism based on their understanding of such gained by debating people on the Catholic Answers forums.
Bridget wrote:
Personally I always thought of generic baptist as a denomination but not necessarily southern baptist? If I thought about it at all. Im mostly only familiar with southern and missionary baptist – who never seem to get mentioned on this site.
@ Ken F:
For my money, although I’m partial to churches with congregational vote, I think the main problem is with people who come into a church with a more democratic style and try to force it into elder led…and this is probably because those people do this in search of more power. So they are sort of a self selected bad bunch.
@ Ken F:
There’s elder led and then there’s elder ruled. The neoCals despite their protestations are elder ruled.
Ken F wrote:
Perhaps your churches that were elder-led had gentle leaders. But with today’s today authoritarianism, there is no such thing.
I am sure that any form of church government, not led by the Holy Spirit, peoples’ humility, and love for one another, can be abusive and toxic.
Celia wrote:
Here’s a very brief article explaining the differences:
http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/18106/what-is-the-difference-between-elder-led-and-elder-ruled
SBC churches used to be deacon led or trustees led – deacons are trustees functioned as elders basically but the deacons were accountable to the membership, through regular business meetings and congregational voting. Elder Ruled otoh is when the elders make all the decisions for the church and they have perhaps one business meeting a year for the budget – but don’t you dare vote against the Elders or ask too many question because then the Elders may decide to put you under discipline.
@ Jack:
Who here said that in this thread? Did I miss something?
BL wrote:
well, ‘Christiane’ for the record would encourage someone interested in Catholicism to read the Vatican Catechism which is on line and very well documented.
I think I did the right thing asking questions on Southern Baptist blogs. My decision was not to listen to ‘hear-say’, but to ask the very people for whom the Southern Baptist beliefs were dear and who would share with me from their heads and their hearts. I remain grateful to many of the kind people who did help me.
If anyone wants to know what prompted my curiosity, I can tell you that I was watching television and saw ‘Baptist’ protestors screaming at the families of dead soldiers at their funerals. I was horrified. I knew that my dear grandmother, of blessed memory, had been a Baptist, and I wanted to know if there was any connection between her faith and that dreadful group on television. My cousin told me that our grandmother was a Southern Baptist. And so I went asking questions. And I found out that the people I spoke with were nothing like that group on television who used the name ‘baptist’. I wanted know the truth, I didn’t assume the worst, and I did the right thing asking for help from the very people who COULD help reassure me.
I have her bible, my grandmother. It’s very old and very worn, still holds her pressed flowers within it. It’s an old KJV. Very fragile. Very dear to me.
Yeah, I wanted some answers. And I found a whole community of people who were willing to help. 🙂
Ken F wrote:
That is the problem when every adult person has a voice including the nobody curmudgeon and/or arrogant ones . It is the sausage making process. Most people hate conflict and that leaves room for those who are quite clever. I think it is healthier and more transparent albeit frustrating.
Most often with the “wonderful Elder Led” situations the pew peons have no clue what is really going on. And that is on purpose. I think it works well in places where people are used to that or don’t want a vote or be a part of the budget process. I don’t think it is healthy, though.
Watchman on the wall wrote:
Gram3 wrote:
The retirees are winning in a landslide! Somebody please tell every church on earth!
Velour wrote:
I think I was lucky, or graciously spared.
Celia wrote:
This is a great distinction. Thanks.
@ BL:
The conversations usually followed a pattern:
What do baptist believe about xyz? OH that’s very different from what my relative believed. I didn’t realize Baptist were such haters. I’ll have to think about this. Asking the question about Baptist beliefs would inevitably lead down the path to an attack.
Christiane wrote:
Kind people who couldn’t explain the Gospel to you?
Help that you describe as “But I couldn’t get a specific answer …. only many answers, some emphasizing certain things, and some in conflict with other answers.”
I don’t know which is more unpleasant – that you describe the people who provided the above *unhelp* as kind helpful people now in this post, or that those kind helpful people were rewarded with your summary critique of their *unhelp* earlier today.
@ Christiane:
I have been reading you for years on blogs and know you evangelize for Catholicism. That is ok and your right– but let’s not pretend you aren’t. :o)
I heard your stories a long time ago. Basically, it sounds like you went to SBC blogs to see if all Baptists were like Westboro. Should the Baptists or former SBCers here assure you they aren’t like Westboro.
You have the art of the gracious humble insult.
@ Lydia:
I’m always amused by people who take great pride in their humility.
@ Christiane:
No problem. Here is the answer.
http://www.sbc.net/bfm2000/bfmcomparison.asp
This site compares successive official statements of faith of the southern baptist convention. You can see for yourself what baptists believe and how that has changed in the past almost a century now.
Celia wrote:
Celia, this still does not address the reality that going to internet blogs/forums as your source for Southern Baptist beliefs isn’t a wise choice. Just as going as a Southern Baptist to debate Catholic Answers isn’t a great source for Roman Catholic beliefs.
And double-plus unwise is using the info supposedly gleaned from debating Southern Baptists on an internet blog as the foundation for a comparative insult of said group and subsequent launch into praises for your own.
Someone’s understandable frustration over the chronic *misuse* of the word Gospel really isn’t an opening for someone else to denigrate another group’s supposed ignorance of the Gospel while lauding their own group’s supposed wisdom on what the Gospel is.
That was and is the point.
Celia wrote:
“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.” (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity)
@ BL:
Maybe I’m coming into the middle of a conversation. The point as I see it is that for some it is not about gleaning information/knowledge because the person posing the questions already believes themselves to know the answers and is only asking questions to advance an agenda.
@ Lea:
Yep, that’s what happened to my home church. Once they made it elder-led, then they said, “Hey, elders are men.”
All of the women were disposed of.
So happy to have left that church and found a much better one.
BL wrote:
Kind of like the church version of “The Prince”
BL wrote:
@Lydia.
This statement is what I was talking about. The implication is that there is a difference between the two. Roman Catholics are Christian whatever the difference in doctrine.
@ siteseer:
The guys even reference Machiavelli!! So he knows.
@ Debi Calvet:
Maybe, seemed like tit for tat to me but there’s 600 plus comments on this thing so I may have missed something.
Christiane wrote:
What is your church’s pain, Christiane? I have not heard you speak of this before, maybe I’ve missed it. How does it tie in to this site?
Jack wrote:
Context.
“Whether you realize it or not, or whether you are purposely doing so, many of your posts come across as proselytizing for your denomination.
Not Christianity, but Roman Catholicism.”
It was not my intention to suggest such an implication.
By incorporating Roman Catholicism within my use of the word “denomination” in the quote above, it should be clear that I was not separating Roman Catholicism from being one of many denominations of Christianity.
Had we an Amish forum participant posting in a similar manner, I would have said “many of your posts come across as proselytizing for your denomination.
Not Christianity, but Amishism.”
No intended implication of who is Christian and who is not.
Celia wrote:
CJ Mahaney does not amuse me at all.
BL wrote:
Wow. Great analogy, BL.
Gram3 wrote:
You’re just not squinting your eyes tight enough or holding your breath long enough…
Do this and you should be just about able to see his clay halo of humility. 😉
Christiane wrote:
By the way, Westboro Baptist is an independent church and not part of a larger Baptist denomination, nor have they ever been permitted to be.
Fred Phelps the founder had a change of heart, softened, after his wife’s death. The gay men who bought the house across the street – Equality House- Fred came to think were good neighbors. Fred Phelps was excommunicated by his own church/relatives.
His granddaughter Megan Phelps Roper represented her family and church on Twitter. Most in her family are attorneys, including her mother. She was a paralegal.
A Los Angeles area rabbi started challenging her, asking her questions on Twitter. It made her think. They also exchanged gifts – like chocolates – at different protests they were each going to.
The rabbi and his wife were instrumental in helping Megan and her sister get out of Westboro, had them stay in their home, and helped them build a new life.
They have since spoken at the Anti-Defamation League events.
So…there is hope!
BL wrote:
Our gracious hostesses here – The Deebs (Dee and Deb) – have reminded us that “the who has a better denomination” posts are to occur on the Open Discussion forum so as not to derail the threads.
It seems the denominational points have been made for now (pro and con).
okrapod wrote:
Hi OKRAPOD,
This is a really great ‘cross-over’ and it does save a lot of time switching back and forth. Truth be told, I suspect the denomination was a bit different in my grandmother’s time, but it was NEVER anything close to that dreadful Westboro group who called themselves ‘baptist’. My grandmother was born in 1880, and passed away when I was in my teens. I think now that I wished we all talked more with the old people who are walking history books, because when they leave, we have lost vast amounts of knowledge from experiences of the times gone by. I don’t know your thoughts, but I think that the 1963 version is the one that I find I can identify with the most as being something you might call ‘mainstream’. The 2K BF&M seems very different from that past BF&M versions.
Thanks again for the site. I enjoyed exploring it.
Velour wrote:
Thanks VELOUR.
God provides for people sometimes in strange and unexpected ways …. grace for those daughters in the form of a Rabbi and his wife offering them a way out of that nightmare. God’s mercy cannot be fathomed. And, my goodness, His ways ARE far above ours … I like the irony of a rabbi helping those girls, there is something beautiful there. 🙂
Christiane wrote:
Velour wrote:
Honestly, this is not a case of whose denomination is better (or worse) but I feel like the proselytizing is getting a bit old. We are all here because we’ve recognized serious problems in our churches, and it’s so good to be able to discuss it and make sense out of it. Except for one person who seems to be here mainly to interject that her church is all light and roses. Which is certainly her right to think, though it doesn’t hold up to any independent scrutiny.
There are times when a person will share that they’ve found a good church and people will recommend to others to try a church in this or that denomination and that’s very helpful and encouraging. But if a person keeps using the discussion to advance their own denomination, it does begin to seem disingenuous and irritating.
@ siteseer:
OK. Fair enough. I can respect how you feel.
Folks: Please take you denominational differences over to the Open Discussion section
and don’t derail the thread.
@ Jack:
I usually don’t wade into this topic too much here, but I don’t consider Roman Catholicism to be Christian*, due primarily to the RC denial of sola fide, as well as the rejection of sola scriptura. (*Which is not to say that individual Catholics are not saved.)
While Protestants have problems with carrying sola scriptura too far, I do believe sola scriptura is a wiser move, as opposed to the RC position of appealing to church tradition, ex cathedra statements by a pope, or reliance on a magisterium.
Some of us don’t pipe up and speak out against Roman Catholicism on this blog, but our silence shouldn’t be taken to mean we are in total agreement with it on all points, either. IMO, this is not the blog to debate Roman Catholicism (there are other forums out there for that).
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, was this person a pastor? My son became a Calvinist although he wasn’t obnoxious like the YRR. However, he was steadfastly convinced of the doctrine. Then he deconverted. Now he no longer believes in God.
Christiane wrote:
Are you referring to Westboro Baptist church?
Westboro aren’t considered actual Baptists by anyone. Other Baptists consider Westboro to be repulsive.
Lydia wrote:
Saying that all Baptists are like Westboro (who picket funerals of mass shooting victims and dead soldiers to cheer their deaths) is like the usual cheap shot by militant atheists and mean Protestants that all Roman Catholics are child molesters just because a percentage of RC priests have issues with that.
@ Velour:
But BL was not the one subtly suggesting in various posts over several threads that his denom / church alone is far better than all other denoms or chruches and is the bee’s knees. 🙂
Christiane wrote:
Numerous SBC churches opted not to adopt the 2000 revision when it was issued and still refer to the 1963 version as their statement of faith. BFM1963 is indeed a more mainstream reflection of majority (non-Calvinist) Southern Baptist belief and practice. BFM2000 diminished long-standing Baptist doctrines of priesthood of the believer and soul competency, as well as the Christocentric interpretation of Scripture. BFM2000 accommodates Calvinism better than earlier versions.
Max wrote:
I was thinking about that. At least when discussions here turns to the neo-Cal devotion to ‘submissive’ behavior of women in Christian marriage. That business about wives submitting to their husbands must have been a shocking change in the denomination for people who valued the traditional (and mutually respectful) Christian marriage theme of ‘either to other’.
Gram3 wrote:
Highborn heir to the Throne of House Sproul.
How to become a megachurch pastor? Be born the son of a CELEBRITY megachurch pastor and have a name that ends in “Junior”.
Darlene wrote:
Like I’ve remarked here before, there’s a pattern to this conversion-deconversion-flip-to-atheism thing. I think Lydia said it well up-thread that Calvinism is not sustainable. The Puritans died out and wherever it takes root it seems to leave human wreckage and misery in its wake.
Gram3 wrote:
Grima Wormtongue.
@ Velour:
Thanks, Velour.
Lea wrote:
It’s all ok because a paragraph about love first! lol
Even when he’s trying to be right, it’s ‘off’ because he’s missing something… He just doesn’t get it. But he thinks he does!
Ken F wrote:
I might add if the elders are not self perpetuating, self selecting, staff members, pastors, and especially thirty year old pastors and their seminary buddies.
Lydia wrote:
Also the “vipers in diapers” description given to children. Me think Voddie and Paul Washer would get along wonderfully.
@ Daisy:
Many moons ago, I tried to break up a bar fight without knowing what the combatants were fighting about. It ended with me getting flung out the door. I think I made the same mistake here. As one who is neither Baptist nor Roman Catholic, I should have just kept quiet on this one. Except for the comment on wife spanking. That’s just plain wrong.
Janice McKenzie wrote:
Me thinks New Calvinist preachers are going to have to widen their searches outside of Baptist churches. Of course Eagle has said they’re already taking over a large contingent of Evangelical Free churches. But that won’t be good enough. I don’t think it’s a stretch for them to infiltrate other denominations such as: Christian Missionary Alliance, established Non-denominational churches that are Arminian, & maybe even a Holiness church or two. There are Bible Fellowship churches in PA, a familiar denomination here, and I wouldn’t be surprised if NeoCals have their sights set on them. The pastor at the B.F. church near our home is a graduate of Westminster Theological Seminary. It makes me wonder if he has plans.
Darlene wrote:
I just saw a news article today about Andrea Yates, the Christian mom in Texas, who drowned her kids. She is in a mental institution. Her ex-husband Rusty said they always planned to have a large family. Quiverful?
He also mentioned how demons got a hold of his ex-wife. Nouthetic Counseling (Jay Adams & Company) failure? Treating serious problems with Scripture verses.
Years ago I was offended by Andrea Yates. How could she?
Now that I’ve had my tour-of-duty of one of these NeoCalvinist, Comp-teaching, Nouthetic Counseling churches, I see her situation differently. I think she was a deeply troubled woman who needed professional help and all of those around her failed her – and her children.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/revisiting-andrea-yates-15-years-195959331.html
Well, I guess I’ve not been keeping up very well. Apparently, according to th Wiki article, the Reformed have already taken over the Bible Fellowship churches. This is a quote from the article:
“During the mid-20th century, the denomination’s soteriological viewpoint also gradually changed from its early Anabaptist/Arminian perspective to the current espousal of Reformed Theology.”
I find this interesting because I recall attending a Bible Fellowship church back in the 80’s and I can say for certain that it wasn’t Reformed. And I know some folks who attend a Bible Fellowship church who have said that the pastor isn’t Reformed. Granted he is older and will probably retire in a few years. But here you have it, an entire Arminian denomination that has its roots as Mennonites has been taken over by Calvinists! Here is the Wiki aricle:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_Fellowship_Church
Velour wrote:
I share your current belief about Andrea Yates. When it happened, you could see people divide into ‘crucify her’ and ‘she needs psychiatric help’. There was no middle of the road for that lady. I’ve always ‘blamed’ her husband and thought ‘how could he?’, but that’ another story. She must have been very, very ill and certainly was bereft of all help.
Christiane wrote:
In my opinion, the pastors/elders at these churches who espouse and teach Nouthetic Counseling should be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license (in my state it’s a felony crime). If you or I did what these pastors did, we’d face criminal prosecution.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, I don’t know why but I just got a hoot out of this! 😉
Velour wrote:
Yes, I read quite a good article about her back at the time and my heart just broke for her, for her kids, the whole situation, and I think you nailed it there. Her husband failed her spectacularly, and did not seem to have any awareness of it afterward, either. He just moved on.
Daisy wrote:
“What if your motives are right, at least as far as we can talk about right motives in fallen creatures? What if you’ve spent time in prayer and self-examination, and you’ve worked hard to eclipse any motive for personal aggrandizement with a desire to lead God’s people for their good? Is it still unseemly to desire to be in leadership? Should every Christian be indifferent as to whether he’s ever recognized as a leader or not? I don’t think so. “If anyone aspires to the office of overseer,” Paul writes (1 Tim 3:1), “he desires a noble task.” So long as you’re aspiring to leadership for the right reasons—that is, for the good of the saints and not your own honor—wanting to be a leader in the church is not some breach of humility or evidence of pride. It’s an honorable, noble desire to use your gifts for the good of God’s people. After all, as Paul writes, leadership exists “to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.” (Eph 4:12)”
Could it be there, between the lines?
@ siteseer:
oops, that’s from the article
https://9marks.org/article/church-reform-when-youre-not-necessarily-the-pastor/
Ken F wrote:
Piper seems to have an affinity to the strange ones. You know…like Doug Wilson and Mark Driscoll. So why would he distance himself from Baucham?
siteseer wrote:
Her (now ex) husband is still talking about “demons” and her being “weak”. Didn’t he work for NASA or something? He is NOT the sharpest tool in the shed.
@ Ron Oommen:
They certainly can’t teach the song “Jesus loves the little children- ALL the children of the World”
And only the elect can sing “Jesus loves me, this I know”…
This theology is the most pompous, yet hopeless ideology ever!!!
BL wrote:
Hi BL,
A House Finch built a nest in the wreath on my front door, which I started taking pictures of. I didn’t know what the odd egg was that appeared one day, and I noticed one of the Finch eggs had been pushed out to make room for it (which I replaced, not sure if it hatched).
When I discovered the speckled egg was a Cowbird egg I read up on it, and although parasitic, their eggs are protected under federal laws. I’m not sure what happened to the Cowbird egg in the nest on my front door. I knew from what I had read that it wouldn’t survive because it required a different diet from that the House Finch feeds their own. I guess nature took its course.
In any case, since my front door had begun tweeting when the House Finches started building their nest, I gave it a Twitter page! There you can see the pics:
https://twitter.com/thebirdiesnest
Jack wrote:
I think your heart was in the right place and you were trying to bring some sanity to bear with your honesty. I should have thanked you for speaking up. Then, I would have taken the brunt of the incoming and maybe you would have been spared. My father, of blessed memory, was born in Canada …St. Armand, Quebec. I still have cousins there. Good people. Beautiful country!
@ BL:
I must say I’m surprised you weren’t asked to tone it down from someone hiding inside their Catholic closet.
@ Velour:
Agreed.
Daisy wrote:
Westboro “Baptists” are nothing more than a hate group posing as Baptists. As the wife of a retired soldier, and a member of Baptist churches since 1978, these people offend me and make me angry to no end! They have protested twice when funeral services were conducted for soldiers at Ft. Campbell. They were given only a 30 minute permit and were restricted to a small parking lot outside of post across the street from the main gate. They were far outnumbered and out protested by military supporters. Traffic stopped on 7-lane-wide Ft. Campbell Blvd., blocking Westboro’s view of the gate and making it difficult for them to leave when their prosthetic permit time expired. Hotels in the area put out their “no vacancy signs”.
Lea wrote:
Even after a pastor moves or retires, members of the congregation sometimes come out of the woodwork: Oh woe is me, nobody can replace Pastor Smythe! …or, Aha! Finally he’s gone, so we can do the things he stopped us from doing all these years!
I was in a church that appointed the associate as a sort of temporary interim after the departure of a highly popular guy. The associate was way too forceful, hoping to act like a successor in hopes of being named successor (against polity). Fortunately an actual interim–a retiree–was appointed after awhile, and things calmed down.
@ okrapod:
Sorry, I should have read your much more lucid comment before posting mine.
Friend wrote:
Eh, once I thought about it I realized I actually have never been in a church when the changeover was happening – all were sort of long time pastors, some are still preaching (and one had their church get kicked out the SBC, lost their land, and finally retired although I was long gone I still get updates :). So thanks for the info.
Nancy2 wrote:
Indeed. A friend showed me their website long ago when the internet was young and shiny and I thought it was a satirical site? Apparently not. I still half wonder if they aren’t doing performance art but maybe they are sincere. They certainly aren’t really Baptists.
Celia wrote:
I missed this earlier – I greatly appreciate the heads-up and completely agree with you.
One of the gifts gained from my deliverance from my shepherding/discipleship cult (on the ‘am I deceived now or was I deceived then’ quandary) was an ability to recognize manipulation in progress and the desire for myself to say what I mean and mean what I say.
Which is why I added the explanatory post after my earlier snarky one.
Going back through the responses to my post pointing out the unnecessary denigration of one faith while elevating one’s own shows a microcosm of the dynamics that occur on the macro level in churches when an issue arises.
Those of us who have been through the fire once, need to realize that we will encounter the same group dynamics wherever we go, and we need to be aware of how susceptible we can be to falling back into the same patterns and/or errors.
A singular action was pointed out that needs correction (stop proselytizing for your faith while denigrating others), no one’s character was maligned, no one’s qualitative participation was called into question, no denomination was bashed.
The group dynamics followed the same path most of us have been on before. It would be wise to recognize them, so that we don’t find ourselves repeating them in the future.
Darlene wrote:
Any church with any of these qualities: an attractive building, valuable land, rich neighbors, old members, location near a capitol, elite university, Fortune 500 headquarters…
And it’s not just neo-Cals doing the depredation. It’s anybody who points out SINNNNNNNNNN!!!! and who has an Internet connection. Anybody on earth. Yes, they’ll rule from other continents. And they’ll define SINNNNNNNNNN.
JYJames wrote:
Add to that 1.the fact that most congregants have a very difficult time entertaining the possibility that a pastor is capable of a campaign of sustained deceit or even outright lying 2. it destabilizes an organization to recognize something is wrong with the visible leader (Penn State as much as churches) and people like stability and 3. People are rightfully connected to other people in the congregation and don’t want to jeopardize those relationships . All these factors give a dishonest person in the role of pastor a huge advantage to execute a takeover.
Lea wrote:
We actually joined one during a transition, and pledged during interim leadesrhip. Several years later people asked us why we had done such an unprecedented, crazy thing. 🙂
Velour wrote:
The above list of crappy things the YRRs teach and do is not how they define the Gospel.
It is how they teach, define, and do church.
I am in complete agreement with you that the above is being taught and that it does cause grief, confusion and inflicts pain.
But they define what they believe as the Gospel here:
https://9marks.org/answer/what-gospel/
The stuff you listed is what they append onto you later.
Paula Rice wrote:
That is so cool – thanks for sharing it! 😉
Did you avoid going in and out of your door while they were there, or did they get used to their nest moving back and forth at times?
@ BL:
You get it! It’s hard because people think that if you post a warning about this person or that person that you’re only launching an attack. But when you’ve watched how these people operate for years you can see the patterns. Some people are not at all what they seem and it can be subtle. You can admire the markings on a diamond back rattler but always be prepared for it to strike.
Darlene wrote:
Their desire is to replicate their idea of church throughout American churchdom.
Before the YRR crowd came riding in on their white horse Escolhido, I think that many denoms/churches had already become fertile ground for their Calvinistic seeds.
When the following movements from the 70s/80s exploded, disbanded, petered out, or went more traditional: Shepherding/discipleship, Maranatha, Campus Crusade, International Church of Christ, Great Commission International, etc – people from these movements didn’t just disappear.
People in these movements were usually very dedicated and very active in their beliefs. They had been attracted to these movements because they wanted something more than what constituted institutional christianity at the time.
I know that in the shep/disc movement we firmly believed that our christian parents were not as dedicated as they should be. That showing up on Sunday mornings, Sunday evenings and Wednesday nights wasn’t real christianity.
So a disdain toward institutional churches permeated the people in these movements.
BUT, a large portion of the displaced people from these movements joined those denominational churches.
And many of them continued to believe that the intensity and depth they had found in these movements was right – minus the bad leaders and the extremes.
If they didn’t learn from their earlier experiences in those movements, then they were/are fertile soil for the YRR seeds being sown.
BL wrote:
In point of fact it is how the NeoCalvinists (that includes the 9Marxists organization/Mark Dever) define The Gospel, not just how they do church. They are constantly saying that you aren’t a ‘real Christian’ and aren’t among “The Elect” if you don’t subscribe to their authoritarianism. 9Marx/Mark Dever is nothing more than the heavy-Shepherding movement from the 1970’s disguised with new terms (*Membership Covenants*, *Elder-led*, *Church Discipline*, *Comp doctrine*.) NeoCalvinism is their Gospel and everyone else is going to Hell.
Velour wrote:
It’s not just the Neo-Cal bunch. The hell card is skillfully played by many fundagelicals Calvary Chapel is particularly good at it.
Nancy2 wrote:
Now that 1S creepy. The word reform has become repugnant to me.
Muff Potter wrote:
I’m not surprised, Muff. I haven’t been a part of CC but have only heard about it from others. All of these cultic groups have this in common: They’re special and everyone else is not.
FW Rez wrote:
Sorry, I am late to the party, was at the ” farm” in NE Texas and had no internet….
During the CR, all SBC seminary professors who did not have degrees, all of their degrees from SBC seminaries were either retired or run off….God forbid you have doctorate from a university in Germany or Holland or France…..even those with doctorates from the UK were looked on with “suspicion.”
K.D. wrote:
Very true!
@ Abi Miah:
Great comment!
I can identify.
@ Burwell:
Deb wrote:
I have little doubt also. What Elizabeth is trying to contend here is astonishingly ridiculous. She genuinely thinks that Danville tipped his hand completely while serving as interim so that the congregation knew exactly what they were getting into? It seems as if those on the ground level who were attending this church weekly are saying that the opposite was the case, that this sudden change in public philosophy once his powers were consolidated was one of the reason for the uproar.
This is a pattern played out again and again, and very often by neocalvinists. An SBC church near where I live was recently split by a youth pastor who tried to jockey for power and position, created a massive uproar about how unfairly the senior staff was treating him, and broke free with a splinter group of about 1/3 of the congregation. I saw this young fellow, too young to even have a middle aged spread or a gray hair on his head, preach–it was one of the most revolting experiences I’ve ever had in a church.
In my state another closeted Calvinist pastor infiltrated another SBC, ignored the bylaws, unilaterally stacked the elder board with out-of-town friends, and attempted to excommunicate any of the stunned congregation who refused to submit to him, this controversy tore the church apart and reached the state Court of Appeals before he finally left under a settlement.
What world is Elizabeth living in in which these neocalvinist pastors seeking a position of authority are showing the rough edges and letting it all hang out while interim or being interviewed? What bizarre fantasy world does she inhabit?
Muff Potter wrote:
Calvary Chapel is my type example of Christianity gone sour. They used to dominate Christianese AM radio around here, I’ve run into Calvary Chapelbots, and their universal dogma was “There can be NO Salvation outside of Calvary Chapel.”
BL wrote:
I read somewhere that this is the exact appeal al-Qaeda & al-Daesh (ISIS) use to recruit restless young Muslims — that their parents and mosques have gone Lukewarm and Apostasized, but Join Us and Be A REAL Muslim, returned to the Original Pure Islam As It Was In the Days of The Prophet (PBUH).
You see this can-you-top-this pattern in all high-commitment mass movements.
Remember Teen Mania/Acquire the Fire?
You should have been in FBCRM to witness the mass resignation of the staff. The whole service was a setup, including the songs that were sung. The young guest speaker had his arm draped around Dennis Darville, swaying to the music, and grinning from ear to ear, as we were singing My Chains Are Gone, I've been set Free, knowing what was about to take place. Also, the music was twice as loud as on a normal Sunday, for emphasis. . This was their last hurray, in your face, as they fulfilled their already determined plans. One of the best shows ever produced, with deceit as the star.
Alma wrote:
These folks that participated in this mass resignation have no shame do they?
Just seeing the pic of Dennis at the top reignites my PTSD. I have never experienced anything so traumatic in my entire life! After the elder vote didn’t pass each sermon was used as a weapon against the congregation..it was brutal. And the abuse in his office was traumatizing to many who thought they were the only ones. You said you would like to speak to some of the members of FBCRM. I’m sure you would not have a problem there..
@ Olivia:
Sorry to cause more trauma with that photo. Thank you for chiming in about how difficult things have been at your church. Your congregation has been through a terrible ordeal that it did not deserve.
Please know that all of you are in our prayers.
@ Alma:
Thanks for sharing your eyewitness account of what happened on Valentine's Day at your church. I re-posted your comment on a newer thread for everyone to read.
Take care.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Leave that type of fellowship and:
“When leaving costs you everything…” posted today on TDB http://thebea.st/28UM0Fb
Olivia wrote:
Were there also the requisite sermons on Matthew 18 and not gossiping? Methinks the story here is not just a takeover and division of a church but a classic case of an authoritarian using all the tools at his disposal to suppress evidence of wrongdoing. Schools have grief counselors, what does a body of believers need after they have been subjected to what is beginning to sound like systematic abuse?
Before any flippant calls to “move on”, the offenses should be revealed and clearly identified. I believe that hearing each story will bring much needed validation. No happy faces pasted over grieving members.
Yes, the word "gossip" was thrown around quite often by "the leadership." If anyone disagreed with Dennis or the leadership or was discussing something they had experienced, they were accused of gossip and were shut down quickly and made to feel like they were heretical. Verses and sermons were chosen specifically for these instances. During one sermon Dennis said he wanted to leave but the Lord told him to stay. This was after the elder vote failed to pass and one of the many pastors (We had so many at one time I wondered how we were paying all of them) had abruptly left because he believed we were going against biblical teaching.
He eventually came back but I think he was coerced by Dennis and given hope that they would start a new church and so the grooming began and those deemed worthy of joining the new church were taken out to eat, visited and received "special" emails. Around that time the church started a new ministry called 515. The people in each group were hand picked and were told to meet in homes.(Divide and conquer!)People were cramped into tiny rooms in homes when we have a large family ministry center which, BTW, we are still paying for. I felt guilty for wondering why we weren't meeting at our church but didn't voice my opinion because I was, by this time, convinced anything the leadership was telling us to do was biblical and questioning meant I had the spirit of the anti-Christ. Yes, that was mentioned in a very strong note to the choir by a member when the choir didn't vote the way Dennis thought they should.
Nobody was supposed to see the votes but of course he saw everything..giving records..everything! He asked for giving records so often that our treasurer finally left. There's so much more..so much. At one point many in the congregation were so beaten down by Dennis' "bullying" sermons that each Sunday I prayed he would say he was leaving .. little did I know his plan was in the works to take the top givers and those that stood by him which he so enjoyed name dropping would take a mass exodus up and out. He timed it perfectly. He knew we wanted to try and tell the congregation about the abuse imparted on innocent people, ourselves, friends. We wanted to bring someone in to help..it was denied. And the word gossip flew again. Nobody believed. One person was asked why they were following Dennis. He said, "He's my friend." Just that simple. He was sly. I'm unsure of what he possibly could have said at the new meeting place that Easter Sunday and how anyone could have felt that splitting a church is OK.(Calling it a church plant helped some with their decision.) I have a friend who said, "It's a good thing..Now we have two churches!" Bless him..he has no idea.
@ Olivia:
Wow, instead of a church to build people up it sounds like Darville made it a place to beat people down. My prayers are with you.
@ Olivia:
Oh my word! You were not gossiping! The Holy Spirit inside of you was rising up in protest. I am grateful we have been able to share the truth of what happened publicly. Secrecy is NOT of God!
How this “pastor” operated is disgusting…. This stuff needs to be exposed!!
@ Olivia:
Olivia wrote:
The emphasis on gossip (and defining gossip as talking about what the leadership are doing & saying) – That is the big red warning alarm system than something evil has begun.
Olivia wrote:
Speaking truth experienced first hand is NOT gossip. Calling truth gossip is manipulating and evil! I guess by DD standards, everything in the Bible could be considered gossip, huh?
Olivia wrote:
Which is essentially a lie; it was a divide & conquer church split, pure and simple (although nothing about it was ‘pure’ or simple). New Calvinists in my area prefer to call their church takeovers as “replants” … justifying their actions to restore the ‘real’ gospel to churches which have lost the truth (Calvinism, of course). It is not appropriate to call these folks “pastors” … the Bible calls them lying scribes.
Olivia, I am so sorry you encountered this in your church. “Gossiping” about these characters is the right thing to do! (a better word is “warning” – that’s what you are doing)
Olivia wrote:
Just curious, Olivia. Is “515” a reference to a specific Bible passage (chapter and verse?). If so, do you know what it is?
Olivia wrote:
Olivia wrote:
Thank you for sharing. Some people can be very charming, and its hard to see the lies underneath.
Lea wrote:
“I was raised to be charming, not sincere.”
Prince Charming in “Into the Woods”
I hope everything was on the up and up with church finances during the secretive planning phase. Did I read that the treasurer resigned in protest? Is this yet another red flag?
FW Rez wrote:
Oh man. That’s a great quote. I haven’t seen that play in ages.
Deb wrote:
She “retired.”
@ Gram3:
None of the staff was ever wrong and heaven forbid you even think of mention it to them!!!
@ HickoryNut:
Who replaced her? Pleases don't share the name, but was it someone Darville recruited?
Olivia and Alma are accurately reporting on what happened at FBCRM.
@ Suelen:
Thank you for confirming their accounts.
Deb wrote:
No, she ended up staying thru the split and helped with the transition to new office staff. She has since fully retired and a new financial secretary has been hired.
I want to take the time and properly thank the Wartburg Watch for allowing FBC to talk among themselves and clear facts up. As a body we still are not talking or airing our dirty laundry to the public. The fortunate ones have found this site. We are sounding the alarm bell for the ones who may one day fall prey to the same people we fell prey.
This has helped the believers who just can’t shake the conduct of past staff and a few of the former members. I just read a post from a previous member that is so toxic and caustic that it made me think if that is what Jesus is about then I don’t want any of it. And I am a believer. I was so turned off that it made me wonder about the wellbeing of this person. The next post from the same person was telling us to repent. The hate and anger is unsettling. The first thing I want to do is tell them to remove that post. You may lose your job if certain employers see that post. Don’t let anyone know that is the way your heart reacts to someone who doesn’t agree with you. For your jobs sake…remove the post,past friend. The Bible that I study doesn’t teach that. It doesn’t teach anger. I don’t need to be taught anger. Sadly, I’ve got that already without being taught.
So. I’m here to say that Watchman on the Wall has seen and heard what they came to see and hear. I love what the Lord has done for us. He cleaned house, all the way down to the secretaries. He removed spiritual pride, we were full of it and also quilts. He allowed us to keep the building. We were all dropping like flies. It would of been easy for them to keep the property, but that was not the Lord’s will. He has made almost all of FBC watchmen. We are now listening and watching everything at FBC. No more abuse to the teens, no more you are not good enough to serve. No more secret meetings. No more condensending lectures. No more of it’s ok for lead pastor and staff to have a “skeleton” or two in closet, but we had to wear our “skeletons” on our lapel. NO MORE! We started praying for specific things. The Lord started answering. He ansewered so fast it made our heads spin.
My dirty laundry is now clean. I’m sorry to the ones who didn’t want this aired on the Internet. The Lord brought us this site. Many of us needed it and some of us didn’t. There is one nice thing that I learned. The ones who disagreed with me still love me. They go out to dinner with me, and have my back in a second if I called. Not once have they told me to repent. You are my family in Christ and I am thankful. A miracle has happened at FBC…someone record it! Oh, they already have.
Christiane wrote:
You know, the comparison to the Cathars is very apt, IMO. The “Elect” consider themsleves to be above the rest of us hoi-polloi.
An old heresy seems to have risen from the grave.