Kevin DeYoung Shares His Thoughts on Overseers Being “Above Reproach” and Appreciated by Outsiders

"I would argue that those who served alongside C.J. Mahaney at SGM and those who were his congregants are in a much better position to assess his character and state of being 'above reproach' than fellow celebrity pastors that he shares a conference stage with."

Edward  (commenter on Kevin DeYoung's post)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:University_Reformed_Church_East_Lansing.jpgUniversity Reformed Church

(where DeYoung serves as Senior Pastor)

No doubt many of our readers have seen Kevin DeYoung's recent post entitled What Does It Mean For An Overseer To Be "Above Reproach" And "Well Thought Of By Outsiders"?  There can be little doubt that DeYoung is defending his close friend C.J. Mahaney.  Early in the post, Kevin DeYoung writes:

So unless we want to exclude Paul and Jesus from serving as an overseer in the church, we must conclude that being above reproach and being well thought of by outsiders must mean something other than, “everyone likes this guy; he has no enemies and no accusations against him.” Not only is this standard untenable for almost anyone who has a public profile in today’s social media world, it’s not biblically consistent. The qualifications in 1 Timothy and Titus must mean something else.

Later in the post, DeYoung summarizes his thoughts:

In short, the idea behind “above reproach” and “well thought of” is largely the same: the elder-pastor-overseer must live a life of Christlike character and virtue that is not easily refuted by those who know him best. The closer you look, the better the mature Christian appears.

Not surprisingly, Kevin DeYoung has received a good bit of criticism for insinuating that his colleague C.J. Mahaney is "above reproach" and "well thought of by outsiders".  This is the danger of being in the Young, Restless, and Reformed bubble.  These guys are so isolated and insulated that they are out of touch with reality. 

Before we take a look at some of the comments that have been made in response to DeYoung's post, it is worth revisiting the fact that Kevin was hugely responsible for Mahaney's return to ministry when he served on the Preliminary Panel.  We wrote about it in our post entitled – Is C.J. Fit for Ministry?

As I pointed out in that 2011 post, Mahaney spoke at DeYoung's church twice before Kevin, Ray Ortlund, and Carl Trueman judged that Mahaney had done nothing to disqualify him from serving as a pastor.  Here are the topics on which he spoke at DeYoung's church:

Evidences of Grace – January 31, 2010

Keep Yourself in the Love of God – November 21, 2010

The year after DeYoung and gang gave Mahaney a thumbs up, C.J. returned to Michigan to deliver the following message at University Reformed Church:

A Surprising Punchline – July 15, 2012

This is the same sermon Mahaney preached at a Neo-Cal church here in Raleigh a few ago. 

Because Mahaney had/has a history of donating money to ministries outside of Sovereign Grace Ministries Churches, we would LOVE to know whether he made any contributions to DeYoung and/or University Reformed Church (pictured above).  Since this congregation isn't particularly large (DeYoung stated back in 2014 that that church had 422 members) they would probably have welcomed contributions from those outside the membership. 

Now let's take a look at what others are saying about Kevin DeYoung's defensive post.  Note: as of this writing there are 29 comments under the 'overseer' and 'above reproach' post, and so far they have not disappeared.  We are including screen shots of the comments that caught our attention, just in case there is some sort of 'glitch'.

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2016/04/27/what-does-it-mean-for-an-overseer-to-be-above-reproach-and-thought-of-well-by-outsiders/

************

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2016/04/27/what-does-it-mean-for-an-overseer-to-be-above-reproach-and-thought-of-well-by-outsiders/************

Screen Shot 2016-05-07 at 12.38.23 AM************

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2016/04/27/what-does-it-mean-for-an-overseer-to-be-above-reproach-and-thought-of-well-by-outsiders/

************

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2016/04/27/what-does-it-mean-for-an-overseer-to-be-above-reproach-and-thought-of-well-by-outsiders/

************

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2016/04/27/what-does-it-mean-for-an-overseer-to-be-above-reproach-and-thought-of-well-by-outsiders/************

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2016/04/27/what-does-it-mean-for-an-overseer-to-be-above-reproach-and-thought-of-well-by-outsiders/

Of course, Crazy Busy Kevin DeYoung has obviously been way too busy to respond to any of these comments.  In hindsight, it probably would have been better had he never written this post.  It makes him appear even more complicit than before.

Reflecting back over all that has happened, it is interesting to contemplate how closely involved Kevin DeYoung was with C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries prior to him serving on that infamous preliminary panel that rendered its judgment that Mahaney was 'fit for ministry'.  How in the world could DeYoung possibly be objective when SGM pastor Curt Allen was singing about him at the 2010 SGM Pastors Conference, which took place just nine months before the preliminary panel announced its decision?

Finally, Kevin DeYoung needs to heed his own advice, which he doled out over a year ago in this post – The God of Justice Hates False Reports.  He wrote:

Please, please, please, let us be more careful with our words. Let our blogs be based on knowledge and our tweets be founded on facts. Let us be among the last to speak our minds if we are not one of the first to know the truth.

Does Kevin really know the whole truth about Mahaney?  We contend that he does not.

Comments

Kevin DeYoung Shares His Thoughts on Overseers Being “Above Reproach” and Appreciated by Outsiders — 249 Comments

  1. Un. Be. Lie. Vable. But sadly all too believable. He IS Crazy Kevin, after all, and true to his established form. Crazy.

  2. Crazy (Busy) Kevin is still letting the critical comments stand. Jennifer’s comment included the descriptor “wreckage”. Mahaney’s Wreckage. Indeed.
    (Hey–am I first?)

  3. I was just over there reading that post and comments. Wow, there’s a lot of pushback!

  4. Question: Did Kevin DeYoung or his ministry get any money from CJ Mahaney? Somehow I think there is more to this than a deep admiration for the dude formerly known as Head Apostle.

  5. How does a church with 400 people in it, from another congregation, get CJ Mahaney's attention while people in his own church barely got spoken to?

    Can anyone explain this to me? There's something here.

  6. dee wrote:

    Question: Did Kevin DeYoung or his ministry get any money from CJ Mahaney? Somehow I think there is more to this than a deep admiration for the dude formerly known as Head Apostle.

    Path to fame? (Including book sales) Money potential, iow…

  7. The insidious thing about these guys, and how they rarely address a specific event or scandal, is that (other than this post of his and a few others, which are lazy as heck) they’re often not too far off from being right, or at least being by some standards decent and biblically fair, **IF** it’s taken in a vacuum. If you’re an ordinary church-goer looking to edify yourself, or a pastor seeking guidance on this or that doctrine, often TGC/T4G types can fill that void.

    Unfortunately, you zoom out a click, and you see the timing, and the circumstances, and the heat that’s being put on them – the bigger chess match they’ve started, and you have to go… “OHHHHHH. That’s what’s going on.”

    So, if you’re uninformed, refuse to be informed, want to hear or see no evil about leaders or churches, then you’ll miss the subtext of an article like this, a subtext which turns an ordinary (if lazy) doctrinal treatise into a defense of sin.

  8. ION:

    Murray wins the first set against Rafa, which is a bit of a surprise – Murray’s been playing well this week, but so has Rafa and he’s peerless in the history of clay-court tennis.

    I’m going to mow (or cut) the lawns the noo, but will be back to make a serious comment later today.

    IHTIH

  9. I just went back and read Kevin DeYoung's personal remarks in the Preliminary Panel findings, which I haven't read in quite a while. Mahaney is forever indebted to DeYoung for his fierce loyalty.

    http://www.sovereigngrace.com/sovereign-grace-blog/post/findings-from-our-preliminary-panel

    Concluding Personal Remarks

    Kevin DeYoung:

    I am the Senior Pastor at University Reformed Church, an RCA congregation in East Lansing, Michigan. The public controversy surrounding C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace has been difficult for many, including myself. I have great affection for Sovereign Grace. I have spoken at various Sovereign Grace events and meet regularly with a local Sovereign Grace pastor in my area. In addition, over the past couple years I have gotten to know various leaders in Sovereign Grace. Joshua Harris is a very good friend. So is C.J. Mahaney. We have had Curtis Allen speak and rap at our church. I have also met with men like Bob Kauflin, Jeff Purswell, Dave Harvey, Grant Layman, and some of the pastors at Covenant Life when I preached there at Joshua Harris’ invitation in the fall of 2010. Honestly, I have experienced nothing but warm, gospel-centered relationships with everyone I have met from Sovereign Grace. Even those I have talked to at conferences have seemed like exemplary Christians—the kind of brothers and sisters I would love to have in my church. All that to say, as much as an outsider can, I know and love Sovereign Grace. In serving on this panel I have tried to be as objective as possible, knowing that some of my friends may see things differently. My conclusions are mine, and, as far as I know my heart, are not owing to any previous connection with anyone in Sovereign Grace. I agreed to serve on this panel in hopes that our small contribution might help provide insight and direction to a family of churches that I care for deeply.

  10. First of all, DeYoung has been little more than a rhetoritician for his tribe since joining the inner circle, so I don’t take him very seriously. Second, and much more importantly, his article highlights two very important points about the YRR crowd.
    1) There is no “plain meaning of the text”. We make it mean what serves our ends.
    2) We call it “expositional preaching”, but we will never uncover anything that changes our minds or way of thinking.

    These hardened hearts and seared consciences are heartbreaking.

  11. @ Stunned:

    This is the question, and I think the TGC commenter Jennifer gets it. Driscoll ended up being expendable and he had numbers. The only explanation for why Mahaney’s importance is an agenda to install charismatic shepherding cults into mainstream evangelical churches.

    And DeYoung’s cowardly refusal to name specifics is deplorable.

  12. Deb wrote:

    I just went back and read Kevin DeYoung’s personal remarks in the Preliminary Panel findings, which I haven’t read in quite a while. Mahaney is forever indebted to DeYoung for his fierce loyalty.

    Makes me wonder ………. How much false praise did CJM heap on RevKev……… How much money did he give him? Given the support CJM gets from the YRR bigwigs, are some of them (RevKev among them) afraid they will get the celebrity boot if they actually stand for the truth?

  13. “Above reproach” means the Scientologists investigated you for Dead Agenting purposes and couldn’t find any serious dirt to trumpet to the world. And those guys are *professionals*. (And no, I don’t consider being called an agnostic “serious dirt,” although the Scienos did. I was more concerned that my–at the time–below the surface of the earth credit rating would be trumpeted to the world.)

    Seriously, Kevin and CJ and the rest don’t have a clue what it means to have a well-funded and completely immoral cult leader going absolutely berserk because you continue to live, breathe and annoy him. I only got a taste of it. Currently, said cult leader is going after his own father (Ron Miscavige) because Ron had the temerity to escape his son David’s clutches, discover David was paying private investigators $10K a *week* to follow him, and then write a book (“Ruthless”) about the whole shebang. Naaah, the Kevins and CJs and Als and Thabitis and the rest of the gang have not even a *clue*.

    Now I’ll read the comments.

  14. Deb wrote:

    I agreed to serve on this panel in hopes that our small contribution might help provide insight and direction to a family of churches that I care for deeply. KD

    He is providing insight as an outsider?? Really?

  15. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    ION:
    Murray wins the first set against Rafa, which is a bit of a surprise – Murray’s been playing well this week, but so has Rafa and he’s peerless in the history of clay-court tennis.
    I’m going to mow (or cut) the lawns the noo, but will be back to make a serious comment later today.
    IHTIH

    I’m just cussing because someone at our sat dish provider forgot to pull the switch and I am missing Bournemouth vs. West Brom…..

  16. Mahaney is “above reproach” and “well thought of by outsiders”

    Well, we’ve all come to know the cast of New Calvinist “outsiders” and their mutual admiration society! Personally, I don’t think much of the way they think about the cries of the oppressed and victimized! The New Calvinist elites who support each other to the bitter end are not above reproach in doing so. So let the expressions of reproach, disapproval and disappointment continue to flow across cyberspace until they get the message that the church at large is looking in on them and not pleased with their actions. Edward’s comment to DeYoung’s post speaks truth “… congregants are in a much better position to assess his character and state of being ‘above reproach’ than fellow celebrity pastors.” Scripture says that when you turn a deaf ear to their cry, you too will cry and not be heard. I would be more forgiving of folks caught up in this sad episode of the American church, if the players were a bit more humble and repentant … but these characteristics are lacking in New Calvinism.

  17. @ K.D.:

    The score is SPOILER REMOVED - ED approaching half-time… don’t know whether that’s good news for you or not!

  18. Deb writes “In hindsight, it probably would have been better had he never written this post.”

    It’s part of the dues he has to pay to continue to climb the New Calvinist who’s-who ladder. He is still yet a rung or two below Mohler, Dever, Duncan, and a host of others, including Mahaney. The old guys favor YRR which will rise to the occasion to rally around them at times like these. The elite look for up-and-comers who they can pass the mantle to, folks who will defend the reformed movement and their leaders, flattering yes men who put leaders far above followers, rather than servant hearts concerned about the sheep.

  19. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ K.D.:

    The score is SPOILER REMOVED – ED approaching half-time… don’t know whether that’s good news for you or not!

    I have it streaming on the computer in the kitchen…The Cherries have collapsed. It’s a good thing they have built up the points they did….right now I they couldn’t beat the Jasper, Texas girl’s team.( Texas state girl’s soccer finalists.)

  20. Back on topic, there’s an interesting comment by a laddie/lassie called Veritas (here) on Mr OfYoung’s post. Veritas speculates/theorises (I use those terms imprecisely, rather than as loaded ones) that in fact both Paul and Jesus would not have been appropriate people to function as local elders. Neither had a role (especially Jesus himself) that could be localised in that way.

    I don’t want to put words in Veritas’ mouth, but that comment does seem to be barking up a similar tree to my own long-held view that pastors/teachers/elders should be quietly serving in their own towns and not producing “content” (as Driskle used to call it) for mass-marketing. And they should be very circumspect about speaking on platforms and at conferences, too. You cannot serve two masters – a truth that applies in many different contexts. In any case, what is the point in travelling over land and sea for “fellowship” when there are church congregations in your own back yard that you won’t work with because there’s no doctrine you won’t fight over?

  21. K.D. wrote:

    The Cherries have collapsed.

    Must admit to a soft spot for Bournemouth, partly because my grandmother used to live there (or nearby) and partly because of how much they’ve achieved over the last four or five seasons. They may not be doing too well today, but they have at least secured Premiership survival already; no mean feat.

  22. Deb wrote:

    I wonder Kevin DeYoung’s friendships with Joshua Harris and Dave Harvey are going now…

    Going nowhere now is my guess. Honestly, since he call himself a friend, did he even contact them once they left SGM? I have my doubts.

  23. K.D. wrote:

    I’m just cussing because someone at our sat dish provider forgot to pull the switch and I am missing Bournemouth vs. West Brom…..

    Call them and tell them to turn it on.

  24. At the core DeYoung appears to argue CJ is above reproach not by virtue but rather than by virtue of his position.

  25. I remember being taught “If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense.” I guess if the plain sense discredits a friend of yours, it doesn’t make sense so you need to seek another sense?

  26. Max wrote:

    The old guys favor YRR which will rise to the occasion to rally around them at times like these.

    Mafia Dons need the hit men to do their dirty work?

  27. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    The Cherries have collapsed.

    Must admit to a soft spot for Bournemouth, partly because my grandmother used to live there (or nearby) and partly because of how much they’ve achieved over the last four or five seasons. They may not be doing too well today, but they have at least secured Premiership survival already; no mean feat.

    And my Cherries pulled-off a draw for a point….

  28. DeYoung:

    So unless we want to exclude Paul and Jesus from serving as an overseer in the church, we must conclude that being above reproach and being well thought of by outsiders must mean something other than, “everyone likes this guy; he has no enemies and no accusations against him.

    Paul and Christ were single. However, most of these churches would never allow an unmarried adult to serve in a leadership role, certainly not as preacher, though the Bible does not say being single disqualifies a person from holding any role in the church. The “married to one person, parent of several kids” verse is not stipulating marriage or parenthood as requirement.

  29. GovPappy wrote:

    Unfortunately, you zoom out a click, and you see the timing, and the circumstances, and the heat that’s being put on them – the bigger chess match they’ve started, and you have to go… “OHHHHHH. That’s what’s going on.”
    So, if you’re uninformed, refuse to be informed, want to hear or see no evil about leaders or churches, then you’ll miss the subtext of an article like this, a subtext which turns an ordinary (if lazy) doctrinal treatise into a defense of sin.

    Very astute. I’ve noticed it too. Some of their posts look harmless – but if you take into consideration the timing of it, you do pick up a subtext or an agenda.

  30. @ K.D.:

    Whereas down in the basement, Sunderland’s late winner against Chelsea, combined with Newcastle’s goalless draw at Villa Park, makes Sunderland favourites to stay up.

    Lestuh City’s title party has just begun with, by all accounts, an emotional rendering of Nessun Dorma by Andrea Bocelli, heartily accompanied by the crowd. I’m not sure even God saw that coming last April…

  31. I read Kevin DeYoung’s post as whinny and kind of pathetic. I know of a number of secular organizations that strive to be “above reproach”. While not “simple” it is possible: have a truly “independent” advisory panel/board, and be ready to admit screw-ups, deal with it, and move on… This include getting rid of, or demoting individuals that are not “fixable” or unrepentant, or in the case of child molesters, deserve to be in jail!

    The problem with the Neo-Cal, T4TG, YRR, crowd is that they think they are “apostolic” and above all of that mess of accountability stuff that the rest of depraved people (i.e. us) need to be under…..

  32. Not surprisingly, Kevin DeYoung has received a good bit of criticism for insinuating that his colleague C.J. Mahaney is “above reproach” and “well thought of by outsiders”. This is the danger of being in the Young, Restless, and Reformed bubble. These guys are so isolated and insulated that they are out of touch with reality.

    Isn’t this the same dynamic that’s powering The Trump? How Our Betters in Washington are living in another reality where they congratulate each other on their Wonderfulness while the country melts down?

    Read this pro-Trump rant and tell me whether the picture of Our Betters in Washington and the Media resembles the Young, Restless, and Reformed Big Dogs:
    http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=7345

    If so, we’re seeing the same dynamic in the Top One Percent with two different coats of paint.

  33. Daisy wrote:

    Paul and Christ were single. However, most of these churches would never allow an unmarried adult to serve in a leadership role, certainly not as preacher, though the Bible does not say being single disqualifies a person from holding any role in the church. The “married to one person, parent of several kids” verse is not stipulating marriage or parenthood as requirement.

    Somebody speculated this is a holdover from the Reformation Wars 500 years ago. Since Apostate Antichrist Romish Popery required its clergy to be single, WE Real Truly Reformed HAVE to have Married Clergy — they do X, we MUST do Not-X. And whether your preachers were married or single announced Whose Side You Were On.

  34. Nancy2 wrote:

    Max wrote:

    The old guys favor YRR which will rise to the occasion to rally around them at times like these.

    Mafia Dons need the hit men to do their dirty work?

    Plausible Deniability if anything gets “embarrasing”.

  35. As a favor to the Reformed Church, I must point out that Crazy Busy Kevin has left that denomination and placed his church in the PCA.

    https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2015/03/23/rca-approves-university-reformed-churchs-transfer-to-the-pca/

    I attended a PCA church in Alton IL for a few years and have fond memories of my time there. The pastor and his wife were fine people and have three lovely daughters, all adopted from India. Due to their influence, we also adopted our precious youngest daughter from India.

    The church was one of the few “normal” churches I have ever attended.

  36. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    They’re still doing it to this day, though, when there is no excuse.

    Other reasons they do it:

    1. Money Saving. $$$.

    The wife of a pastor usually provides free labor for the church in some form or another (some churches especially want a wife who plays the piano, so they don’t have to pay a musician to do so)

    2. Adult Singles Have Perverted Cooties stereotype.

    They have suspicions that single adults are Jezebels who will sleep with every person in the church ~ though how many stories have we heard of married church guys who have affairs and molest kids?

  37. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    1) There is no “plain meaning of the text”. We make it mean what serves our ends.

    I was in-country during the heyday of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and HIS “plain meanings of the text.”

    Like the Demon Locusts of Revelation “plainly” being helicopter gunships armed with chemical weapons and flown by long-haired bearded hippies. After a couple “plain meanings of the text” like that, you get very skeptical about “plain meanings”.

  38. Max wrote:

    Well, we’ve all come to know the cast of New Calvinist “outsiders” and their mutual admiration society!

    I’d use a stronger term than “admiration” between “mutual” and “society” but Deb & Dee won’t let it pass.

  39. GovPappy wrote:

    So, if you’re uninformed, refuse to be informed, want to hear or see no evil about leaders or churches, then you’ll miss the subtext of an article like this, a subtext which turns an ordinary (if lazy) doctrinal treatise into a defense of sin.

    It’s called “plain meaning of the text”.

    And I remember an example from my family history:

    My father tended to understand words extremely literally, like all he could hear was the “plain words” of the text, without noticing any subtext or tone or non-verbal cues. (I suspect that’s where I inherited my not-quite-Aspergers traits; wish I’d inherited his hyperfocus ability as well…)

    In any case, I noticed time and time again how this made my father very susceptible to being manipulated, an “easy mark” for a master manipulator like his other son, my younger brother. And he remained completely unaware of this.

  40. cookingwithdogs wrote:

    I was just over there reading that post and comments. Wow, there’s a lot of pushback!

    I'm curious if DeYoung will let them stand. Right now the commenters make a compelling contrary case about CJ even calling into question DeYoung's judgment. I would have thought DeYoung would have a pack of sycophants ready to go with praises for his "insight" and drowning out opposition.

  41. https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2015/07/01/40-questions-for-christians-now-waving-rainbow-flags/

    Here’s something I remembered on my lovely morning run: Kevin DeYoung is TGC’s mouthpiece for the traditional evangelical view on homosexuality. Remember this article, also a direct response to specific person who shared a specific idea but he wouldn’t say it? There are many, many atheists affirmed by pastors who grandstand against gay marriage and the homosexual lifestyle but say “meh” to child sex abuse like DeYoung.

  42. GovPappy wrote:

    So, if you’re uninformed, refuse to be informed, want to hear or see no evil about leaders or churches, then you’ll miss the subtext of an article like this, a subtext which turns an ordinary (if lazy) doctrinal treatise into a defense of sin.

    Excellent analysis

  43. The dynamics behind new Calvinism needs exploration. It seems that these men seem trapped by group think (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink) and sophistry (see https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/sophistry).

    I get the sense that they have all talked themselves into believing their sophistry, and that they are finding common ground in being the “victims” of people who challenge them.

    Here’s an example where the two come together. It is a recycled sermon that was posted on Piper’s web site yesterday – interesting timing.
    http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/charles-spurgeon-preaching-through-adversity
    This quote comes near the end: “If we are to survive and go on preaching in an atmosphere of controversy, there comes a point where you have done your best to weight the claims of your critics and take them to heart and must now say, ‘By the grace of God, I am what I am.’ And bring an end to the deranging second-guessing that threatens to destroy the very soul.”

    Piper’s underlying assumption is that pastors are the innocent victims of abusive congregations. It’s a tragic way of thinking. And it needs exposure. Both for the larger body and Christ and for the people (including these leaders) who are enslaved to lies.

  44. Bridget wrote:

    I agreed to serve on this panel in hopes that our small contribution might help provide insight and direction to a family of churches that I care for deeply. KD

    Anyone else felt deeply cared for by his pronouncement that CJ was all good to rule… errrr… serve?

  45. Deb wrote:

    I just went back and read Kevin DeYoung’s personal remarks in the Preliminary Panel findings, which I haven’t read in quite a while. Mahaney is forever indebted to DeYoung for his fierce loyalty.
    http://www.sovereigngrace.com/sovereign-grace-blog/post/findings-from-our-preliminary-panel
    Concluding Personal Remarks
    Kevin DeYoung:
    The public controversy surrounding C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace has been difficult for many, including myself. I have great affection for Sovereign Grace….Joshua Harris is a very good friend. So is C.J. Mahaney. t… All that to say, as much as an outsider can, I know and love Sovereign Grace. In serving on this panel I have tried to be as objective as possible, knowing that some of my friends may see things differently. My conclusions are mine, and, as far as I know my heart, are not owing to any previous connection with anyone in Sovereign Grace.

    Why is there no sense at all of conflict of interest? I think this tendency in Christian circles to believe that our integrity can overcome our innate biases is nothing but pride. It seems to be the kind of thing Jesus spoke of when he said that the “sons of the world are shrewder in dealing with their own generation than the sons of the light.” In what court of law could someone be a judge or on the jury of the trial of a good friend? I believe that the observation that sin has affected our intellect and judgment is part of the doctrine of the depravity of mankind that Calvinists hold to. The practical implications seem to be something that our Founding Fathers understood better than our current church leaders apparently do.

  46. I completely agree with this post

    Abi Miah wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    I just went back and read Kevin DeYoung’s personal remarks in the Preliminary Panel findings, which I haven’t read in quite a while. Mahaney is forever indebted to DeYoung for his fierce loyalty.
    http://www.sovereigngrace.com/sovereign-grace-blog/post/findings-from-our-preliminary-panel
    Concluding Personal Remarks
    Kevin DeYoung:
    The public controversy surrounding C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace has been difficult for many, including myself. I have great affection for Sovereign Grace….Joshua Harris is a very good friend. So is C.J. Mahaney. t… All that to say, as much as an outsider can, I know and love Sovereign Grace. In serving on this panel I have tried to be as objective as possible, knowing that some of my friends may see things differently. My conclusions are mine, and, as far as I know my heart, are not owing to any previous connection with anyone in Sovereign Grace.

    Why is there no sense at all of conflict of interest? I think this tendency in Christian circles to believe that our integrity can overcome our innate biases is nothing but pride. It seems to be the kind of thing Jesus spoke of when he said that the “sons of the world are shrewder in dealing with their own generation than the sons of the light.” In what court of law could someone be a judge or on the jury of the trial of a good friend? I believe that the observation that sin has affected our intellect and judgment is part of the doctrine of the depravity of mankind that Calvinists hold to. The practical implications seem to be something that our Founding Fathers understood better than our current church leaders apparently do.

  47. Max wrote:

    Deb writes “In hindsight, it probably would have been better had he never written this post.”
    It’s part of the dues he has to pay to continue to climb the New Calvinist who’s-who ladder.

    Yes. I know from personal experience that there is a fierce quid-pro-quo. In fact, it is so vicious that some SBTS professors are required to man the SBTS booth at T4G. Let that sink in for a moment.

  48. I tried to do this on the facebook Comment by Mr. Johnson from Grace to You and pyromaniacs concerning his comments about C.J. Mahaney. He proceeded to misunderstand my point and explain to me why “survivor” blogs are wrong and he was not going to throw Mr. Mahaney under the bus when no one could come up with “biblical” evidence (a point from his main post). I mentioned in my first post that most abuse does not happen in front of witnesses and there seemed to be enough evidence ie two witnesses for other apparent indiscretions of leadership abuse concerning Mr. Mahaney. I am trying to be very clear because Mr. Johnson and those who share his theology tend to be “hyper-texters” meaning they focus on text, wording, narrowly defined meanings of words, except biblical “kinds” when discussing Genesis but that is another post. I see that as cant see the forest through the trees.

    My point is also concerning Pastor DeYoung’s take on things, If Mr. Mahaney had been a person who holds to the validity of the evidence that supports the TofE, had supported women pastors, had held a view of origins such as those at Biologos, was supportive of Same sex marriage, been in support of inclusionary language in scripture translations, been an Arminian, denied or questioned any of the 5 solas as understood by the Gospel Coalitions……… Johnson, MacArthur, DeYoung etc would have all not appeared on stage with him and he would not have been invited at all.

    I consider child abuse, exploitation and covering up such events, not supporting the victims including showing up in court on their side of the isle so to speak, shaming families, excommunicating people for questioning abuse etc far more reprehensible than the above so-called offenses. I thank you, Dee and Deb for giving us a forum to speak.

  49. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    some SBTS professors are required to man the SBTS booth at T4G

    That’s probably a check-box on their annual performance evaluation. SBTS is ground-zero for New Calvinism. T4G is “the” place to be seen, heard and exercise your flattering skills: “Oh, Dr. Mohler, that was the best message ever!”

  50. “In short, the idea behind “above reproach” and “well thought of” is largely the same: the elder-pastor-overseer must live a life of Christlike character and virtue that is not easily refuted by those who know him best. The closer you look, the better the mature Christian appears.”

    Clever, isn’t it? These guys are “set apart” and only allow their “set apart” colleagues to judge whether they are above reproach.

    They will brag about how approachable they are because they mix with the peasants to shake hands and hang around during coffee time if they want to ask them a question.

  51. @ Ken F:
    Yep, the T4G gathering is beginning to take on that aura. Within SBC ranks, the B21 meeting at the SBC annual convention is beginning to look that way, too.

  52. @ Abi Miah:

    The identities of those on the preliminary panel were kept secret until the report came out. That also bothered me quite a bit.

    These guys are just playing games.

  53. Bill M wrote:

    At the core DeYoung appears to argue CJ is above reproach not by virtue but rather than by virtue of his position.

    Bingo! Because others with that position have deemed him above reproach. It is all about the caste. And since you don't know him personally and have no such godly position, you cannot make a judgment.

  54. Abi Miah wrote:

    The practical implications seem to be something that our Founding Fathers understood better than our current church leaders apparently do.

    Totally agree!

  55. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Yes. I know from personal experience that there is a fierce quid-pro-quo. In fact, it is so vicious that some SBTS professors are required to man the SBTS booth at T4G. Let that sink in for a moment.

    Yes, there was/is serious quid pro quo. I know from former employees. Your career depends on it. There are many who relish the lack of independent thought like Russ Moore and Jason Allen.

    However, for many plebe followers there is a “please, just let me carry your bag” competition going on. I hope that one day they will get close to the inner ring. I view guys like Kevin DeYoung and CJ Mahaney as useful idiots.

    Anyone here want to explain to me why James McDonald of the elephant that is now in the SBC? Why a despicable man like him has been invited to speak to the SBC Pastors conference and was an advisor on the SBC gospel project?

    Mohler. They all have Mohler in common.

  56. brian wrote:

    My point is also concerning Pastor DeYoung’s take on things, If Mr. Mahaney had been a person who holds to the validity of the evidence that supports the TofE, had supported women pastors, had held a view of origins such as those at Biologos, was supportive of Same sex marriage, been in support of inclusionary language in scripture translations, been an Arminian, denied or questioned any of the 5 solas as understood by the Gospel Coalitions……… Johnson, MacArthur, DeYoung etc would have all not appeared on stage with him and he would not have been invited at all.

    At the risk of sounding cynical, I’ll recycle what I posted yesterday. It turns out that obeying the speed limit is what is truly important. The speed limit part comes up at 21:30:
    http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/submit-to-laws-for-the-lord-s-sake
    This was posted on Piper’s site earlier this week.

    I don’t know what to say about this straining of knats and swallowing of camels. It’s simply stunning.

  57. Stunned wrote:

    Anyone else felt deeply cared for by his pronouncement that CJ was all good to rule… errrr… serve

    CJ, CJ’s family, his celeb buddies, and the few who followed him to KY. But not most of the people in SGM/SGC.

  58. Lydia wrote:

    Does anyone know anything about the folks who publish BB?

    I’m curious also. Nancy2 made a comment about the guy on the open thread. BB recently had a nifty one on Piper, flutterhands according to HUG. Another recent BB post on Mohler sounded too puffery for me.

  59. As i have expressed before, i grew up in a fundamentalist church/school, and while specific "doctrine" points might be different, the behavior of the leadership was very similar. Reading everyone's posts helps me to realize that i was not the only one looking at that system and seeing "the emperor has no clothes". These clowns were (are) so good at controlling people and the message in the past they could isolate those if use that question… But the internet and blogs like this ate really blowing a lot if it open… Much, much harder for them to manipulate information now… It is clear we are all making a difference.

  60. Max wrote:

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
    some SBTS professors are required to man the SBTS booth at T4G
    That’s probably a check-box on their annual performance evaluation. SBTS is ground-zero for New Calvinism. T4G is “the” place to be seen, heard and exercise your flattering skills: “Oh, Dr. Mohler, that was the best message ever!”

    Yes sir, yes ma’am, that requirement of manning the booth at T4G ( and it being part of your yearly performance evaluation ) sounds just like being a teacher in small town Texas….go to the prom ( 34 proms in my life), attend at least 5 to 7 community events yearly, go to x number of ballgames( if they thought they could get away with it, require you to attend church on Sunday) ….all so you won’t get marked down on your evaluation……and it reminds me of why I am so glad to be retired.

  61. I agree that this was written to counter the Mortification of Spin podcast! Carl Trueman as much said in it that what’s going on with Mahaney isn’t based on malicious rumors; that there’s enough reasonable suspicion surrounding Mahaney to disqualify him. I think we can all agree!

    Carl Trueman didn’t have to mention Mahaney’s name in the podcast for Kevin DeYoung to know who he was referring to. Everyone knows who he was talking about! Trueman, however, threw the gauntlet down by basing his remarks on Scripture. I’m guessing that’s what got everyone’s hackles up at the Gospel Coalition (which includes DeYoung, Duncan, Anyabwile, Dever, Mohler, Piper, et al). How dare Trueman use scripture!? By doing so he implicated all those men for fraternizing with a rebel. The audacity! They must send out one of their foot soldiers to counter this indignation!

    I agree with John Barker that DeYoung’s post was hasty, twisted, and full of contradictions. To me it appears to have been given as an assignment, and certainly doesn’t deserve a passing grade. Overall this puts TGC in a bad light. Maybe the 20+ Sovereign Grace affiliated churches had something to do with this? Whatever the case, I’d say it’s time to consider The Gospel Coalition a rogue organization

  62. Lydia wrote:

    Does anyone know anything about the folks who publish BB?

    According to the Washington Post:

    At the Babylon Bee, the news is always fake but the stories are often true.

    The satire site, which began in early March, features witty headlines that poke fun at the foibles of churchgoers.

    The site is the brainchild of Adam Ford, 32, a Detroit dad who quit his day job a year and a half ago to produce Web content.

    His first project was Adam4d.com, a Web comic supported by small group of donors and a few ads. He’s aiming bigger with the Babylon Bee, which he said attracted more than 1 million visitors in its first three weeks.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/04/04/fake-news-thats-good-for-the-soul/

  63. Stan wrote:

    The Gospel Coalition, more like The Gnostic Corporation.

    They should just come clean and call it The Old Boys Network. Everyone knows it.

  64. @ Daisy:
    I noticed in one of your comments over at TGC (April 28, 2016 at 10:54 pm) you remarked, “If you dont know Mahaney just google him.”

    I wonder if the TGC folks googled Mahaney as you suggested and come up with the same information Al Mohler did, like “CJ cheers for the Washington Redskins and against the Dallas Cowboys, the New York Yankees, and Duke basketball.” (strains eyes while rolling)

    Let’s hope in the future a google search for CJ Mahaney produces results like:

    “CJ Mahaney Steps Down, Way Down, and Doesn’t Step It Back Up”
    “Christians Throw Tomatoes At Stand-up Pastor/Comedian, Forcing Him Into Second Retirement”
    “CJ Mahaney Relocates His Louisville Church and Family Compound to Guyana”

  65. Paula Rice wrote:

    I agree that this was written to counter the Mortification of Spin podcast! Carl Trueman as much said in it that what’s going on with Mahaney isn’t based on malicious rumors; that there’s enough reasonable suspicion surrounding Mahaney to disqualify him. I think we can all agree!

    Carl Trueman didn’t have to mention Mahaney’s name in the podcast for Kevin DeYoung to know who he was referring to. Everyone knows who he was talking about!

    Only those who have kept up. Trueman never says who he is talking about.

  66. Bill M wrote:

    Another recent BB post on Mohler sounded too puffery for me.

    This is why I asked. Too many pastors on reformed blogs love Babylon Bee for me not to be just a tad suspicious.

  67. siteseer wrote:

    I remember being taught “If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense.”

    Me too.

    Lydia wrote:

    Clever, isn’t it? These guys are “set apart” and only allow their “set apart” colleagues to judge whether they are above reproach.
    They will brag about how approachable they are because they mix with the peasants to shake hands and hang around during coffee time if they want to ask them a question.

    So opposite of when Jesus walked the earth. The Jewish leadership, those considered “set apart” in those days, rejected Jesus, while it was the lowly ones of the masses who saw and accepted the Truth, proving that Pastors, teachers, and leaders do not own the rights to declaring who is, or is not, above reproach.

  68. Lydia wrote:

    Trueman never says who he is talking about.

    Nevertheless, he’s caused quite a stir. I think the arrow found its target.
    By the way, do you know why the Mexican didn’t go bow-hunting? Because he didn’t habanero.

  69. Yup
    Lydia wrote:

    @ Remnant:
    The parallels between the religious leaders of Jesus’ time and today are uncanny.

  70. Lydia wrote:

    Bill M wrote:
    Another recent BB post on Mohler sounded too puffery for me.
    This is why I asked. Too many pastors on reformed blogs love Babylon Bee for me not to be just a tad suspicious.

    Adam Ford (adam4d.com) an apparently reformed cartoonist/”webcomic” publisher. Some articles have authors listed, including Matt Smethurst, Tim Challies, and Doug Wilson. Which reminds me…

  71. Lydia wrote:

    Clever, isn’t it? These guys are “set apart” and only allow their “set apart” colleagues to judge whether they are above reproach.

    “These five Kings said one to another:
    ‘King unto King o’er the world is Brother’…”
    — G.k.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”

  72. Dave A A wrote:

    Adam Ford (adam4d.com) an apparently reformed cartoonist/”webcomic” publisher. Some articles have authors listed, including Matt Smethurst, Tim Challies, and Doug Wilson. Which reminds me…

    Another Calvinista Propaganda Ministry Production?

  73. Stan wrote:

    Here’s something I remembered on my lovely morning run: Kevin DeYoung is TGC’s mouthpiece for the traditional evangelical view on homosexuality.

    “Traditional Evangelical view on homosexuality” as in “Fred Phelps with a more genteel coat of paint”?

  74. Abi Miah wrote:

    I believe that the observation that sin has affected our intellect and judgment is part of the doctrine of the depravity of mankind that Calvinists hold to. The practical implications seem to be something that our Founding Fathers understood better than our current church leaders apparently do.

    Our founding fathers were products of the Enlightenment as are we, these guys (calvinistas) are stuck in the medieval period.

  75. brian wrote:

    …because Mr. Johnson and those who share his theology tend to be “hyper-texters” meaning they focus on text, wording, narrowly defined meanings of words,

    “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”

  76. @ GovPappy:

    Exactly right. Also they use coded language, dog whistles quite often.

    Mahaney, Josh Harris, and DeYoung, however, have always raised the hair on the back of my neck. Whereas a Mohler (usually) can sound intelligent and correct in a sense until you know the backstory, guys like DeYoung just always seem to be spinning too hard. Their writings always seem convoluted and provoke a lot of cognitive dissonance in me.

  77. @ Dave A A:
    Truman writes:
    “In the meantime, as I look at the sheer quantity of the evidence, I keep thinking of that comment made by Mary McCarthy about Lillian Hellman: “Every word she writes is a lie, including ‘and’ and ‘the’.”‘

    So… the “she” here refers to Wilson, who coincidentally blogged today about a disagreement with part of another Trueman article while ignoring this one so far.

  78. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Back on topic, there’s an interesting comment by a laddie/lassie called Veritas (here) on Mr OfYoung’s post. Veritas speculates/theorises (I use those terms imprecisely, rather than as loaded ones) that in fact both Paul and Jesus would not have been appropriate people to function as local elders. Neither had a role (especially Jesus himself) that could be localised in that way.

    Back on topic myself, that was the comment which most stood out to me. It calls into question a basic assumption of DeYoung, which logically leads to his conclusion of: outsiders must realy mean insiders– those who know you well– like folks at the gym, or the store, or the T$g convention.

  79. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    pastors/teachers/elders should be quietly serving in their own towns and not producing “content” (as Driskle used to call it) for mass-marketing.

    Back to the plagiarism topic, ISTM the desire to churn out volumes of “content” may be the primary cause of Driskell and Doug’s plagiarism. Not that they personally cut and pasted, but rather put their names on content cut and pasted by subordinates, which nobody would buy if only the subordinates’ names were on the covers.

  80. What is going on here shows one of those things we all witness in life.

    After rising in popularity due, in my opinion, to the reemphasis of some important Christian truths, and due to effective presentations by good speakers who were genuinely interested in the health of churches and discipleship, groups like T4G, the GC, and other groups who are dogged in their support of Mahaney, are turning a corner.

    Rather than being a vanguard of innovation, new voices etc., they are now being perceived as corrupt. Someone said that their choice to support Mahaney was stubborn. That’s a very good word.

    What we all sense is a loss of moral standing and respect. And they don’t yet see it.

    It’s always this way. It may be years before they see it, if ever.

    Part of God’s judgment may be letting them continue on while their reputations continue to suffer – all without their noticing. Currently, they still think they are fighting the good fight, and that the criticism they receive is because they love the Lord and the truth.

    But when support starts to flag, and you are seen as corrupt – and you don’t begin to understand that, that is a sure sign of decline and God’s judgment.

    There may be enough residual support based on history – and good things that have been done. But the slow erosion of support, and the barely perceptible lack of true enthusiasm is present, and may only grow with time.

    it is all very sad, and very unnecessary.

  81. Anonymous wrote:

    After rising in popularity due, in my opinion, to the reemphasis of some important Christian truths, and due to effective presentations by good speakers who were genuinely interested in the health of churches and discipleship, groups like T4G, the GC, and other groups who are dogged in their support of Mahaney, are turning a corner.

    I would be interested in who these effective Reformed speakers are who were genuinely interested in the health of churches and discipleship.

  82. Lydia:

    We won’t agree on that, so I’ll pass. 🙂

    But if you assume that as background, you will understand my comment.

  83. Anonymous wrote:

    Part of God’s judgment may be letting them continue on while their reputations continue to suffer

    Actually it is humans who allow it to continue by attending their conferences and buying their books. Unless you believe God is purposely blinding thousands and thousands of hem and they have no choice?

  84. Anonymous wrote:

    Lydia:

    We won’t agree on that, so I’ll pass.

    But if you assume that as background, you will understand my comment.

    Your words give away your background which I well know, too. Are you going as far back as Reisinger?

  85. Dave A A wrote:

    Adam Ford (adam4d.com) an apparently reformed cartoonist/”webcomic” publisher. Some articles have authors listed, including Matt Smethurst, Tim Challies, and Doug Wilson. Which reminds me…

    Adam Ford’s comic is also known for ripping off the style and format of another webcomic called The Oatmeal. Similar to CCM, “Christian” is just a code word for derivative.

  86. Tomorrow’s signs are ready–and they are inside baseball riffs on the 60s and Star Trek.

    Driscoll has said in a recent he wants an Airstream (the silver clad trailers) for a welcome center at his church, and he wants a yellow fire engine to remind people that they need to be saved from the fires of hell, and he wants 400 Mid-Century Modern chairs to match his building.

    My signs say: “What does God (scratched out) Mark need with a starship (scratched out) Mid-Century Modern chairs?”

    and

    “What does God (scratched out) Mark need with a starship (scratched out) Airstream?”

    (clip from the movie) (starts about 1:45)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9sqkahSziU

  87. dee wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    I wonder if Kevin DeYoung would still be friends if money was involved?

    He’s still friends with CJ 🙂

  88. Lydia wrote:

    This is why I asked. Too many pastors on reformed blogs love Babylon Bee for me not to be just a tad suspicious.

    They do have a lot of great articles. I think the idea of the church being able to laugh at itself is a real good one. The articles seem to be getting better every day.

    I have noticed a number of articles are contributed by Matt Smethurst, managing editor for The Gospel Coalition.

    When the site was first up, they had a blurb inviting readers to submit articles. I don't see it now but I just took a quick look so maybe I'm missing it.

  89. Anonymous wrote:

    After rising in popularity due, in my opinion, to the reemphasis of some important Christian truths, and due to effective presentations by good speakers who were genuinely interested in the health of churches and discipleship, groups like T4G, the GC, and other groups who are dogged in their support of Mahaney, are turning a corner.

    One thing I’ve learned through my bad church experiences is that I can never again assume I know who is genuine and who isn’t. It’s a sad byproduct of seeing behind the mask.

  90. Bill M wrote:

    I’m curious also. Nancy2 made a comment about the guy on the open thread. BB recently had a nifty one on Piper, flutterhands according to HUG. Another recent BB post on Mohler sounded too puffery for me.

    The name of the guy who created BB is Adam Ford.

  91. Letz Go Down To The River [1]: “What Manner Of 501(c)3 Church Is This?”

    hmmm…

    Reverend Kevin DeYoung,

      Excuse me, but ‘Exemplary Christians’ ™  don’t harbor, protect, and cover-up forty years of documented, evidenced based, litigation pursued, court challenged, seriously embedded SGM/SGC pedophillia.

    —these are the ‘kind’ of “individuals” you would love to have in your 501(c)3 church?

    huh?

    Skreeeeeeeeeeetch!

    Pastor DeYoung, I would encourage and exhort you to consider making the 501(c)3 Christian church environment a healthier and better place to worship God and a place to learn of Him, through dedication to real quality, devotion to honesty, and civic and corporate responsibility.

    Please keep in mind, that everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be summarily exposed. But those who practice the truth dwell in the light. Their deeds give substantial and fruitful evidence of a divinely purposed life accomplished with the very assistance of God Himself.

    What?

    Make no mistake, holy scripture does not lie, what an individual sows, they shall also reap.

    So please plant the ‘good stuff’ and reap a bountiful harvest!

    You’ll be glad you did!

    ATB

    Sopy
    __
    11] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=maT4phfTXR4

  92. @ Anonymous:

    I agree with you analysis. The longer these so-called Christian leaders rally behind Mahaney, the more foolish they will look when more revelations are made.

    And this is playing out before a watching world.

  93. Deb wrote:

    The longer these so-called Christian leaders rally behind Mahaney, the more foolish they will look when more revelations are made

    They look a lot more worse than ‘foolish’ when revelations reveal that they took money (a.k.a. ‘donations’) from Mahaney. Being ‘bought’ by someone who shielded pedophiles is beyond sick. There is ‘complicity’ and there is paid ‘complicity’, and I don’t know which is worse.

  94. ET Phone home!

    Per John Piper’s website today, we men must remember to reach out by faith today and contact the particular alien who gave birth to us. Or at least I think that’s what Doug Wilson is telling us to do. http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/every-mother-s-son. I think he means well, but something seems wrong about the way he describes the difference between how men and women are to honor their parents. Am I wrong to think that something is amiss with this article?

  95. @ Ken F:
    “One of the things this kind of honor does is to make a profound declaration of dependence. For the wise woman, her reflection goes back to the first pages of Genesis, which is where the first woman was taken from the side of the first man.”
    Huh?????????????
    I think everything he says revolves around patriarchy and the powers he believes mortal men should have over women.

  96. Nancy2 wrote:

    I think everything he says revolves around patriarchy and the powers he believes mortal men should have over women.

    This article was the lead article on desiringgod.org both yesterday and today. Whatever this article is trying to communicate, it’s clear to me that John Piper is throwing his full support behind Doug Wilson. It was not a coincidence.

  97. I tried to post an update on the February 18 post, but could not. So here is my latest update.

    Well, nothing has changed yet, jobwise. Thank you for your generosity. It is amazing to me and I am so grateful. Thanks to you, I have been able to do the basic maintenance on my car. Still running rough but running. 🙂 I have food and a full tank of gas and the first bills that come due for the month have been paid. The rest of the monthly bills come due the end of the week and amount to $400. Then, of course, there will be food and gas again in 10 days, or so…then June’s rent. Everything you all have done is beautiful. It is way more than I could ever have expected. Thank you so much. I had no idea, 7 months ago when the journey began, that I t would last this long. But I am still up and moving forward, thanks in no small part to you all’s generosity. Thank you, again.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp

  98. siteseer wrote:

    When the site was first up, they had a blurb inviting readers to submit articles. I don’t see it now but I just took a quick look so maybe I’m missing it.

    I don’t think there was anything to miss so I hear you! I was just surprised that Reformed pastors I am familiar with, who usually don’t like anything poking fun at their gurus, loved the site and were promoting it. It caused me to take another look. I think it is tame and careful. Just made me curious and a bit suspicious.

    When I look at the damage some of the gurus he gently pokes fun at has done in real life, I wonder if that brand of humor actually protects them in the long run?

    Matt Smethurst is a totally sold out to Mohler fan boy who was given an old and small SBC church close to the University as his launching pad for social networking stardom. I still cannot figure out how such a church actually supports him. NAMB?

    I have just seen too much not to be a tad suspicious. I mean, who knew what Mohler adding one “s” to the BFM meant 16 years ago? And no one listened to the few who were warning back then. Now, many church takeovers later, we get it. Church discipline was sold by these guys as cleaning up the rolls. Not as putting a young woman under discipline for wanting to divorce her child predator missionary husband. And the creepy Chandler was poked fun at for “hand gestures” on BB.

    In some ways it makes the authoritarian gurus more likeable and draws people away from the horrors of their dark side. It acts more as a protection. Just something to consider when real people’s lives have been devastated by some of these men.

    And those are just a few examples of how they are always ten steps ahead on the chessboard. You just learn to be wary which I hope is part of wisdom.

    If the Reformed brand promotes BB that is only a good thing for its owner and advertising.

  99. @ Ken F:
    Aside from the fact that Doug Wilson was a dying brand in a tiny town in Idaho before Piper catapulted him to YRR stardom with his promotion, that article is typical Wilson bizzaro world teaching. He completely mangles 1 Corin 11. But what else is new? They have mind that passage for ESS and patriarchy, for years.

    When Piper first promoted Doug Wilson at Desiring God, the young minds full of yrr mush fell in love with his rogue insulting style. He was a sort of older wiser Driscoll to them.

    However, none of the YRR young’ens bothered to research Wilson. Piper’s endorsement was enough. They had never heard of ‘Black and Tan’ and ‘Slavery As It Was’. You should have seen them trying to explain that away!

  100. Anonymous wrote:

    it is all…very unnecessary.

    Good comment and I agree with you, all but the last part. We’re seeing clear distinctions emerging. That is evidence of God’s judgment at work. Sad? I wouldn’t say so. Necessary? Absolutely.

    “His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12

    Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” John 9:39

    The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. Psalm 19:8

  101. @ Dave A A:
    It is rather strange he uses a woman to hide behind because he never names names of who he is talking about. After all, they don’t allow women to make judgements in their court system but they do allow them as witnesses.

  102. Or perhaps a problem-in my observation and personal experience trying to have a sensible conversation with strong supporters of Trump who identify as Christian-is that evangelicals really are ok with rationalizing anything for the sake of control. It’s a cult mentality and bully culture that is very very concerning.

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

  103. @ Melody:
    I have never had a sensible conversation with a Hillary supporter, either. It’s as if the last 20 years never happened.

  104. I also think it bears repeating how much Kevin DeYoung has been willing to promote Doug Wilson, who is in my view a very sick man. I think this shows a huge lack of discernment on Kevin’s part. I also think much of evangelicalism has a serious issue of cult mentality-they are willing to excuse anything and major in being nice, rather than doing the hard work of being Christlike against the opposition of any majority. This is why abusers like Doug Wilson not only get a pass, they get promoted. And then they promote one another and influence other pastors to be twice the sons of hell they are. I’ve experienced personality change in some people who follow these guys. It’s like dealing with a cult member.

  105. Yep. Fwiw I think it’s ok to like someone’s policies or personality but as soon as we check our brains at the door I worry. Had a lovely offline convo last night with people I don’t entirely agree with because they were at least thinking critically about it all. It’s the same dynamic in the church when people think some leader can do no wrong or is just having a bad day when they repeatedly bully, IMO. I guess it’s easier for most of us to follow someone else than to think for ourselves.

    @ Lydia:

  106. Melody wrote:

    . I’ve experienced personality change in some people who follow these guys. It’s like dealing with a cult member.

    Me too. It is beyond creepy how much influence a guru has on people.

  107. DeYoung’s statement “the elder-pastor-overseer must live a life of Christlike character and virtue that is not easily refuted by those who know him best.” also smacks of the oft repeated ploy brought here by supporters of abusers, “we don’t know the rest of the story”.

  108. Melody wrote:

    I’ve experienced personality change in some people who follow these guys. It’s like dealing with a cult member.

    Like the effect of Taking the Mark in a bad Christianese Apocalyptic novel or movie.

  109. Lydia wrote:

    @ Melody:
    I have never had a sensible conversation with a Hillary supporter, either. It’s as if the last 20 years never happened.

    My God Can Do No Wrong.

    Either that or they’ve Taken the Mark.

  110. Lydia wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    It is rather strange he uses a woman to hide behind because he never names names of who he is talking about. After all, they don’t allow women to make judgements in their court system but they do allow them as witnesses.

    Does a woman’s testimony count as one-half or three-fifths of a man’s?

  111. Lydia wrote:

    In some ways it makes the authoritarian gurus more likeable and draws people away from the horrors of their dark side. It acts more as a protection. Just something to consider when real people’s lives have been devastated by some of these men.

    And those are just a few examples of how they are always ten steps ahead on the chessboard. You just learn to be wary which I hope is part of wisdom.

    If the Reformed brand promotes BB that is only a good thing for its owner and advertising.

    Very interesting background, Lydia. I wonder if people are laughing at these articles in a different way than they intend.

  112. Lydia wrote:

    In some ways it makes the authoritarian gurus more likeable and draws people away from the horrors of their dark side. It acts more as a protection. Just something to consider when real people’s lives have been devastated by some of these men.

    Like the Important News Item Statistic of how many mints Pastor Furtick consumes in a year?

  113. Christiane wrote:

    They look a lot more worse than ‘foolish’ when revelations reveal that they took money (a.k.a. ‘donations’) from Mahaney. Being ‘bought’ by someone who shielded pedophiles is beyond sick. There is ‘complicity’ and there is paid ‘complicity’, and I don’t know which is worse.

    “Everybody’s got his price or a guy like me couldn’t exist.”
    — some 19th or early 20th Century “Captain of Industry”

  114. Christiane wrote:

    They look a lot more worse than ‘foolish’…

    This is a good point. After a certain stage, when it all piles up over decades and the evidence of the devastation wrought in the Church is clear, with the thousands who’ve been cast adrift without fellowship, who’ve become (rightly) bitter at horrific treatment by those who’ve claimed authority over them, when you see the thousands who’ve rejected the faith entirely, when you see the little children who’ve been destroyed by predators who are always, seemingly without exception, protected by Christian leaders so-called, when you consider how many of those children who’ve been physically or spiritually abused have run headlong into atheism (I know multiple ones from my former neocal church), when you consider what Jesus said about those who lead little ones astray, one is right to look at Mahaney, Mohler, Driscoll, Piper, Dever, Chandler and say “You’re not just foolish, you’re willfully pursuing evil and destroying the Church”.

  115. Melody wrote:

    Or perhaps a problem-in my observation and personal experience trying to have a sensible conversation with strong supporters of Trump who identify as Christian-is that evangelicals really are ok with rationalizing anything for the sake of control. It’s a cult mentality and bully culture that is very very concerning.

    What I’ve seen is that when people identify into an ideology or cause, the cause becomes more important than truth. Politics, religion, atheism, ‘natural’ living- people can make anything into an idol when their mindset is wrong! God, on the other hand, calls us to truth, to intellectual honesty.

  116. Yes!

    I’m shocked whenever free people think they must be loyal to some party line or someone who is corrupt. There may be no good options in politics so you have to make choices what you value if you’re going to vote, but there’s a real problem right now of evangelical leaders playing politician to keep control.

    They don’t seem to realize they are big fish in small ponds and the world outside sees right through them. It’s always shocking to me when Christians would prefer to turn a blind eye to (or minimize) corruption in the church that is hurting God’s people because they want to maintain an image in front of the world.

    Again, everyone outside the bubble sees right through that hypocrisy. I thought from Scripture we Christians were meant to obey God over man-and these days I believe that may mean being maligned by fellow Christians for thinking for oneself and saying what you believe publicly.

    @ siteseer:

  117. Lydia wrote:

    If the Reformed brand promotes BB that is only a good thing for its owner and advertising.

    Sounds like this could be a great opportunity to expose the YRR abuses among the reformed folks who go to BB. Seems like periodic TWW satire articles would be a good way to get the reformed crowd to read real TWW postings. I’m sure there are plenty of topics for a creative writer to choose from. If there is an audience out there, why not reach out to them?

  118. Lydia wrote:

    @ Melody:
    I have never had a sensible conversation with a Hillary supporter, either. It’s as if the last 20 years never happened.

    I may be the biggest hypocrite in the world. For 30 years I encouraged my 18 year old students to register and to vote. I may not vote this Nov. And if I do, I may turn in a blank ballot.

  119. Dave A A wrote:

    Back to the plagiarism topic, ISTM the desire to churn out volumes of “content” may be the primary cause of Driskell and Doug’s plagiarism. Not that they personally cut and pasted, but rather put their names on content cut and pasted by subordinates, which nobody would buy if only the subordinates’ names were on the covers.

    Because of your post I did a quick search this morning and found this recent article by Doug Wilson: https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/110195.html.

    What a great example of obfuscation, sophistry, and rationalization. He muddies the waters without providing any guiding principles.

  120. Max wrote:

    T4G is “the” place to be seen, heard and exercise your flattering skills: “Oh, Dr. Mohler, that was the best message ever!”

    It is also, apparently, the place to push major book $ales on attendees.

  121. Lydia wrote:

    Mohler. They all have Mohler in common.

    Well that and money. Look at all the shady characters that this clique has promoted – Driscoll, MacDonald, Mahaney – they have/had serious cash.

  122. I don’t blame you…I think these are polarized and unusual times…I don’t think there is Scriptural precedent for our kind of elections so to each their own, but not trying to start a debate on all that. Hope that encourages you from someone who will vote… X

    @ K.D.:

  123. This is a pertinent point…
    Dave A A wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    pastors/teachers/elders should be quietly serving in their own towns and not producing “content” (as Driskle used to call it) for mass-marketing.

    Back to the plagiarism topic, ISTM the desire to churn out volumes of “content” may be the primary cause of Driskell and Doug’s plagiarism. Not that they personally cut and pasted, but rather put their names on content cut and pasted by subordinates, which nobody would buy if only the subordinates’ names were on the covers.

  124. Paula Rice wrote:

    I agree with John Barker that DeYoung’s post was hasty, twisted, and full of contradictions. To me it appears to have been given as an assignment, and certainly doesn’t deserve a passing grade.

    Sort of. I only say that because writing up assigned propaganda is essentially DeYoung’s job description. I can’t remember the last time I read a post of his that didn’t sound hasty, twisted, and full of contradictions.

  125. Ken F wrote:

    Am I wrong to think that something is amiss with this article?

    No. It’s the steaming pile of nonsense disguised with clever writing that I have come to expect from him.

  126. Lydia wrote:

    I was just surprised that Reformed pastors I am familiar with, who usually don’t like anything poking fun at their gurus, loved the site and were promoting it. It caused me to take another look.

    Actually, they have been doing this for years. By poking fun at trivial folly, it gives them rhetorical leverage to deny or ignore the really big disgusting folly.

  127. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Actually, they have been doing this for years. By poking fun at trivial folly, it gives them rhetorical leverage to deny or ignore the really big disgusting folly.

    When I grow up, I want to articulate as well as you do.

  128. Bill M wrote:

    DeYoung’s statement “the elder-pastor-overseer must live a life of Christlike character and virtue that is not easily refuted by those who know him best.”

    I Timothy 3:7 says, “He must also have a good reputation with outsiders…”

    Revelation 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.”

  129. @ Melody:
    Some are in luck. The Reformed big cheeses heads are exploding over Trump. They hate the guy. If they had expended the same sort of “anti” energy on the bombastic jerk PASTOR, Mark Driscoll, they might have a point.

    It is all so bizarre.

  130. Lydia wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    You would think a guy like Mahaney would be a gold mine for BB. Sigh.

    Thou Shalt Not Utter Blasphemy Against Thy God.

  131. Lydia wrote:

    @ Ken F:
    You would think a guy like Mahaney would be a gold mine for BB. Sigh.

    But as for others (such as those Bitter Hater Blogs)?
    See “Scientology Fair Game Law”.

  132. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Actually, they have been doing this for years. By poking fun at trivial folly, it gives them rhetorical leverage to deny or ignore the really big disgusting folly.

    Like the Important Statistic of the number of mints consumed each year by Pastor Furtick.

  133. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Ken F wrote:

    Am I wrong to think that something is amiss with this article?

    No. It’s the steaming pile of nonsense disguised with clever writing that I have come to expect from him.

    Clever writing or “See How Clever I Am(TM)” writing?

    I saw too much of the latter with this one local fanboy.
    And (according to Slacktivist) Left Behind, Volumes 1 to whatever.

  134. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Paula Rice wrote:

    I agree with John Barker that DeYoung’s post was hasty, twisted, and full of contradictions. To me it appears to have been given as an assignment, and certainly doesn’t deserve a passing grade.

    Sort of. I only say that because writing up assigned propaganda is essentially DeYoung’s job description. I can’t remember the last time I read a post of his that didn’t sound hasty, twisted, and full of contradictions.

    Can’t even write GOOD propaganda.
    Sounds like some of the stuff you got from Mao’s China or today’s North Korea?

  135. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Mohler. They all have Mohler in common.

    Well that and money. Look at all the shady characters that this clique has promoted – Driscoll, MacDonald, Mahaney – they have/had serious cash.

    “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”

  136. Max wrote:

    T4G is “the” place to be seen, heard and exercise your flattering skills:
    “Oh, Dr. Mohler, that was the best message ever!”

    “I WANT TO HAVE YOUR CHILD! SQUEEEEEEEEEE!!!”

    “With a ruler, you can lay the flattery on with a trowel.”
    — Benjamin Disraeli, 19th Century Prime Minister of England

  137. Lydia wrote:

    The Reformed big cheeses heads are exploding over Trump. They hate the guy.

    Really? They are voting for Hillary? They are refusing to vote? They don’t have sense enough to lie low and say nothing until the day after the election, and then they can deny having voted for whomever for at least four years? That is what I plan to do. Whoever wins I plan to swear that I did not vote for that person.

  138. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    …writing up assigned propaganda is essentially DeYoung’s job description. I can’t remember the last time I read a post of his that didn’t sound hasty, twisted, and full of contradictions.

    How can one write anything in defense of such a thing without it matching the above description? There’s no other possible option but a twisted non sequitur. And when performing such an unenviable task, it’s quite natural for one to want to do it as hastily as possible, like ripping off the band-aid. He takes too long and puts too much thought in, a bit of introspection and rational thought might set in, DeYoung might become completely overcome by cognitive dissonance, start acting rationally, just blurt out the cold, hard truth à la Al Pacino is “And Justice for All”, and then his aspirational dreams go up in smoke with one truthful blog post. What’s a young, third tier wannabe-first tier pseudo-Christian celeb to do?

  139. K.D. wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ Melody:
    I have never had a sensible conversation with a Hillary supporter, either. It’s as if the last 20 years never happened.
    I may be the biggest hypocrite in the world. For 30 years I encouraged my 18 year old students to register and to vote. I may not vote this Nov. And if I do, I may turn in a blank ballot.

    I’ve teach biz law, and used to teach constitutional law and Am Gov, and I am done with it, neither candidate will receive support from me. This election looks like death by drowning or firing squad–choose your poison. What they call a Morton’s Fork dilemma.

  140. Kevin de Young is a poor exegete.
    Firstly, to be “above reproach” means that although we may be insulted or reproached by our enemies, it is something we should be “willing to undergo for our Saviour. But in all such insults, we should never deservedly be reproached because of some evil thing we have done.”(Mounce: Complete Expository Dictionary of the Old and New Testaments). If applied to C J Mahaney there must be a question mark over his fitness to hold office.
    Secondly, “above reproach” and “well thought of” are not equivalent terms as he claims. Nor are “the outsiders” insiders! The “outsiders” are those outside the church. As Philip Ryken says in his commentary on 1Timothy, “This qualification is a reminder that the church is in the world and that in the ordination of overseers, some consideration must be given to the non-Christian public. People’s impressions of Christ are partly based on his ministers. Ministers have a public role in the community. Unless their lives speak for themselves, no-one will ever listen to what they have to say…..The way the apostles lived made the message – not the messenger -the issue. This is an example for every believer. How easy it would be to win the world for Christ if every believer behaved like a Christian. As it is, we find ourselves having to defend the followers of the gospel as often as we defend the gospel itself.”
    Apply this to C J Mahaney and decide whether he “measures up” or not.

  141. @ okrapod:
    Russ Moore made an anti Trump campaign his mission as Prez of the ELRC. The Reformed wing has gone rabid against him. They are promoting #neverTrump. This is a new twist.

    It just makes no sense after 10 years of defending and partnering with the vulgar bombastic pastor, Driscoll. They would not allow a word against him. “He preached the Gospel”, they would say.

    They are one of the most unconsistent groups I have ever witnessed both doctrinally and just in life basics. It is a good thing they censor most contrarian views. They would not last long answering direct questions.

    There is a reason I avoid all church (left and right) during the silly season. I am just done with all of it and any mention of it from the pulpits.

    Now I get why my parents taught us that asking how one voted a rude inappropriate question.

  142. Law Prof wrote:

    This election looks like death by drowning or firing squad–choose your poison. What they call a Morton’s Fork dilemma.

    Which shoukd bring us to take a serious look at why we have such ridiculous choices and our responsibility in how the system came to be what it is. But, people are more interested in personalitie and tribes.

  143. Lydia wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Which shoukd bring us to take a serious look at why we have such ridiculous choices and our responsibility in how the system came to be what it is. But, people are more interested in personalitie and tribes.

    Church imitating politics and popular culture–it’s all about personality and tribes, who can get the most attention, all sizzle no steak.

  144. Max wrote:

    That’s probably a check-box on their annual performance evaluation. SBTS is ground-zero for New Calvinism. T4G is “the” place to be seen, heard and exercise your flattering skills: “Oh, Dr. Mohler, that was the best message ever!”

    I’m reminded that Mohler became the head of SBTS when he was 33. I was also reminded, yesterday, that Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali became the head of the most important university (the Nizamiyya) in Baghdad when he was ~33, as he was considered one of the most brilliant men of his age. Al-Ghazali underwent a spiritual crisis a few years after that (when probably still under 40), abandoned his prestigious university post and took up itinerant wandering as a Sufi mystic. That said, Al-Ghazali’s works, both before, possibly during, and after his wanderings are crucial to understanding where Islam is at today. While this is very much oversimplifying things, the argument is that Al-Ghazali destroyed rationalist philosophy within Islam and may have retarded intellectual growth. I cannot judge on this because I do not know enough. My point is that I don’t think people are going to be reading Al Mohler nine hundred-plus years from now the way Al-Ghazali is read.

    Maybe Al-Mohler could do with a spiritual crisis?

  145. Lydia wrote:

    Some are in luck. The Reformed big cheeses heads are exploding over Trump. They hate the guy. If they had expended the same sort of “anti” energy on the bombastic jerk PASTOR, Mark Driscoll, they might have a point.

    It is all so bizarre.

    I went out to the House of Driscoll again today. I’m going to have to start wearing a hat out there, because even at 9 am and not especially warm, the sun is starting to get *brutal*. Not much went on, at least not until some dudebros came out with a quadcopter and started flying it around. Hey no, I don’t appreciate having a quadcopter hovering over me. It made me wish for a slingshot.

    Next week I think I’m going with some very blunt signs: “It’s all about Jesus (crossed out) MARK” and “Mark wants your time and your money.” Time for some reality to set in here.

  146. Law Prof wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    Lydia wrote:
    @ Melody:
    I have never had a sensible conversation with a Hillary supporter, either. It’s as if the last 20 years never happened.
    I may be the biggest hypocrite in the world. For 30 years I encouraged my 18 year old students to register and to vote. I may not vote this Nov. And if I do, I may turn in a blank ballot.
    I’ve teach biz law, and used to teach constitutional law and Am Gov, and I am done with it, neither candidate will receive support from me. This election looks like death by drowning or firing squad–choose your poison. What they call a Morton’s Fork dilemma.

    Oh man, John Morton, 15th Century Archbishop of Canturbury….I taught his theory in my 12th grade economics classes….

  147. mirele wrote:

    That said, Al-Ghazali’s works, both before, possibly during, and after his wanderings are crucial to understanding where Islam is at today. While this is very much oversimplifying things, the argument is that Al-Ghazali destroyed rationalist philosophy within Islam and may have retarded intellectual growth. I cannot judge on this because I do not know enough.

    Mohammed abu-Hamid al-Ghazali. The most influential Muslim theologian of around 800 years ago (7th Century Islamic calendar).

    As I understand it, he was a contemporary of St Thomas Aquinas, was presented with the same problem (how to reconcile Greek Philosophical thought and logic with Revealed Scripture — Bible for Aquinas, Koran for al-Ghazali) and came to a completely opposite conclusion.
    * Thomas Aquinas reconciled the two in his Summa Theologica, with the human wisdom and logic as a subset of Divine wisdom; the two might not agree, but should not flatly contradict each other. Since physical reality was knowable as a partial reflection of Divine Reality (the seen echoing the unseen), logic and human thought and discovery were valid; God revealed Himself through natural revelation as well as Scriptural.
    * al-Ghazali came to the opposite conclusion, rejecting any commonality between the two in his Incoherence of the Philosophers. Faith and Reason/Philosophy were two opposites and Faith — the Sovereign Will of Al’lah — must prevail. One of his actual examples was when a piece of cloth burns, it is not “burning” physically; Al’lah is willing the cloth out of existence and creating the heat and ashes ex nihilo by His Sovereign Will. No connection whatsoever. (You can see where this is leading.) God reveals himself only through His Word the Koran, dictated Word-for-Word to Mohammed; all else (like nature or logic) is meaningless and the enemy of Faith.

    For whatever reason (probably because Islamic civilization was reeling from the Apocalyptic trauma of the Mongol Invasions), al-Ghazali became dominant in Islamic theology and Islamic civilization. And we see the results to this day. Some date the stagnation of Islamic civilization from the time of al-Ghazali.

    I think the Mongols hit harder because Islamic civilization was under the Curse of Unbroken Initial Success; when you start out with a long winning streak, you won’t be able to handle when that winning streak ends. Whereas Christianity spent its first 300 years as an intermittently-underground outlaw religion and Judaism had been periodically stomped on since Nebuchadnezzar, Islam began with a 400-year unbroken winning streak which ended with the Mongols. And Islam never completely recovered from the trauma, compounded by al-Ghazali’s divorcing Islam and God from physical reality and logic and human wisdom. We see the results to this day.

  148. Law Prof wrote:

    What’s a young, third tier wannabe-first tier pseudo-Christian celeb to do?

    doubleplusdoublethink, doubleplusgoodthink, doubleplusduckspeak, and suck up to Big Brother.

  149. Lydia wrote:

    @ Melody:
    Some are in luck. The Reformed big cheeses heads are exploding over Trump. They hate the guy.

    Actually, that’s something in Trump’s favor — if he can make Calvin Fanboys’ heads explode, that’s something worthwhile.

    Are they screaming like Fred Phelps, faces as purpled as Perry Noble straining on the can behind the pulpit?

  150. Lydia wrote:

    hich shoukd bring us to take a serious look at why we have such ridiculous choices and our responsibility in how the system came to be what it is. But, people are more interested in personalities and tribes.

    Both The Trump and Comrade Hillary are Reality Show CELEBRITIES.

    Trump with The Apprentice (2004-2015) and Hillary with the White House Reality Show (1992-2001, with a revival in 2008).

  151. mirele wrote:

    Maybe Al-Mohler could do with a spiritual crisis?

    Well, he’s certainly sending mainline Southern Baptists through one right now!

  152. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    al-Ghazali came to the opposite conclusion, rejecting any commonality between the two in his Incoherence of the Philosophers. Faith and Reason/Philosophy were two opposites and Faith — the Sovereign Will of Al’lah — must prevail

    Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

    I tried to read up on him earlier not an easy thing!

  153. lowlandseer wrote:

    Kevin de Young is a poor exegete.

    Like most New Calvinists, he is more of an eisegete, than an exegete. Leaders in the New Calvinist movement interpret and present Biblical text in such a way to introduce reformed presuppositions, agendas, and biases to support the new reformation. There is no doubt that they passionately believe what they preach. So sad to witness so much talent pursue this course. Lord knows that America could use a new generation of preachers with their spiritual heads screwed on straight.

  154. @ mirele:
    Sounds like boys and toys. I don’t blame you! Does Mark have his airstream yet? Are many people actually coming? They must be gluttons for punishment!

  155. mirele wrote:

    I went out to the House of Driscoll again today. I’m going to have to start wearing a hat out there, because even at 9 am and not especially warm, the sun is starting to get *brutal*.

    They don’t call that valley Phoenix is in “The Valley of the Sun” for nothing.

  156. mirele wrote:

    Next week I think I’m going with some very blunt signs: “It’s all about Jesus (crossed out) MARK” and “Mark wants your time and your money.” Time for some reality to set in here.

    A thought for your sign: “Google Mark Driscoll amd Mars Hill”

    Bless you for your persistence.

  157. mirele wrote:

    not until some dudebros came out with a quadcopter and started flying it around. Hey no, I don’t appreciate having a quadcopter hovering over me.

    Do you think this was a purposeful act, i.e., they cooked up this scheme to try send you off?

  158. Funny how Kevin DeYoung alters the meaning of ‘being above reproach’ to fit someone that is clearly ‘not above reproach’.

  159. Max wrote:

    Lord knows that America could use a new generation of preachers with their spiritual heads screwed on straight.

    Like J. Vernon McGee. McGee was the real deal, no affectation, very little in the way of baggage. While I may not agree with everything, I’ll listen to McGee before I’ll listen to the YRR anyday.

  160. Pingback: Kevin DeYoung Claims C.J. Mahaney is Above Reproach, Jenn’s Comment from SGM Survivors, and a Fourth Anniversary | Wondering Eagle

  161. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Can’t even write GOOD propaganda.
    Sounds like some of the stuff you got from Mao’s China or today’s North Korea?

    Or Scientology’s “Freedom Magazine”?

  162. Deb wrote:

    And this is playing out before a watching world.

    Oh yes. It all shows up in the public arena at some point. “Let your light shine…”

    Unfortunately, this is not shining the Light of Heaven.

  163. @ Dave A A:

    “Trueman had this article …which is about Wilson’s latest plagiarism difficulties, but you don’t know who he’s talkimg about without following the link to Rachel Miller.
    ++++++++++++++++++

    what’s the deal? is it some kind of spiritual loophole he thinks he’s found? like, is he sneaking around the supposed biblical tenets of ‘not judging’, or of ‘endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace’ by being vague and indirect?

    reminds me of things I’ve read from other random blog commenters where it’s ok to ridicule another human being, even another Christian, as long as you don’t say ‘raca’ or ‘you fool’. the ‘clever’ spiritual loophole for the non-thinking-man.

    if this is the case, what carl and the non-thinking-man don’t realize is the rightness and necessity of calling out wrong, injustice, & crime (whether in violation of the law or of what is moral). sometimes the egregiousness of the situation calls for being a bit caustic about it.

    it should be done forthrightly, for the sake of what is right. not indirectly and vaguely, for the sake of being ‘biblical’.

    biblicalschmiblical…. its meaningless-ness is highlighted by how meaningful people think it is.

  164. @ Ken F:

    So Piper continues to support Doug Wilson, the big plagiarist (fresh evidence of plagiarised works having emerged in the last few days), whose academic pretensions have been proven to be a sham, thoroughly discrediting him and his joke of a Bible college.

    But Doug’s a strong patriarchist, so I guess Piper loves him.

  165. GovPappy wrote:

    So, if you’re uninformed, refuse to be informed, want to hear or see no evil about leaders or churches, then you’ll miss the subtext of an article like this, a subtext which turns an ordinary (if lazy) doctrinal treatise into a defense of sin.

    A very important point. Most of my friends and acquaintances are like this. My husband is too: he prefers to remain uninformed. I mean, he trusts anything printed on the Gospel Coalition site (as Kev’s article) far more than on blogs like TWW. So people like him read TGC and simply take it all at face value and absorb their spin as the truth. And my husband is an intelligent man.

  166. mirele wrote:

    I’m going to have to start wearing a hat

    mirele wrote:

    It made me wish for a slingshot.

    A couple of thoughts.

    A hat with a sign on top of it, only visible to hover crafts might be in order.

    A sling shot or dart gun (with tips that would adhere to a hover craft, magnetic or something) also with messages attached.

    Or hire some kid with a hover craft to hide in the bushes in waiting to go buzz those guys and their hover craft.

    I know, I’m getting weird. But I’m glad you are doing this.
    Driscoll is no good at exegesis.
    Like a tried and true Neo-Cal, he’s all about that eisegesis and shoving his very personal and ill-informed eisegesis down everybody’s throats.

  167. May wrote:

    But Doug’s a strong patriarchist, so I guess Piper loves him.

    He keeps dem uppity Wimmen in their place.

  168. Muff Potter wrote:

    I’ll listen to McGee before I’ll listen to the YRR anyday.

    Yep, with all the noise in the church today, sometimes it’s best to just go back and dig up some of the old guys who had something to say!

  169. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    May wrote:
    But Doug’s a strong patriarchist, so I guess Piper loves him.

    He keeps dem uppity Wimmen in their place.

    One of my friends shared a Russell Moore quote the other day and it was all I could do not to get in and rant…even though the quote itself was fine.

    Although now I’m googling him and found an article last year where he says ‘sexual ethics is not an option for a gospel people’ which I guess was about gay marriage or something.

  170. Muff Potter wrote:

    Like J. Vernon McGee. McGee was the real deal, no affectation, very little in the way of baggage. While I may not agree with everything, I’ll listen to McGee before I’ll listen to the YRR anyday.

    J Vernon McGee of “Through the Bible”. I remember him from my time in-country. Very direct, not pretentious at all. Just going through the Bible & teaching from it cover-to-cover every five years. An island of sanity among all the Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrists, Wretched Urgency Witnessing, and No Salvation Outside of Calvary Chapel that dominated Christianese AM radio.

    I remember his opening theme, “A Fertile Foundation”. A couple months ago, it showed up in the hymn rotation at St Boniface and I was expecting to her J Vernon McGee announcing “Through the Bible”.

  171. @ mirele:

    “Not much went on, at least not until some dudebros came out with a quadcopter and started flying it around.”
    ++++++++

    as in, came out of the church building with said quadcopter and remote controls in hand?

  172. @ Ken F:

    “Sounds like this could be a great opportunity to expose the YRR abuses among the reformed folks who go to BB. Seems like periodic TWW satire articles would be a good way to get the reformed crowd to read real TWW postings. I’m sure there are plenty of topics for a creative writer to choose from.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    any Christopher Guest fans out there?

    I’ve long thought a mockumentary (a la Spinal Tap/Best In Show/A Mighty Wind/For Your Consideration) is just waiting to be done on any number of realms in evangelicaldom. The YRR scene is full of material. it could write itself. Christopher Guest and Eugene Levy should be the scribes (nudging the process with their great ideas).

  173. href=”#comment-252007″ title=”Go to comment of this author”>elastigirl wrote:

    any Christopher Guest fans out there?
    I’ve long thought a mockumentary (a la Spinal Tap/Best In Show/A Mighty Wind/For Your Consideration) is just waiting to be done on any number of realms in evangelicaldom. The YRR scene is full of material. it could write itself. Christopher Guest and Eugene Levy should be the scribes (nudging the process with their great ideas).

    Guest, Shearer and McKean are geniuses.

    I’ve thought of doing a spoof on a YRR bike gang with the leather boots and dirty, tattered denim vests with their gang name on back–of course, “Totally Depraved”–maybe a portrait of Calvin embroidered under the name.

    I can see them walking into SBC churches goin’ Old Testament on people who refuse to subscribe to the Doctrines of Grace, busting up the quaint little church and ganging up on the harmless, doddering pastor and parishoners, burning the NIVs, replacing the choir director with an indy rock band and converting the place into a “proper” church with black spray-painted ceiling, spotlights on the stage, uncomfortable, folding chairs and plenty of ESVs and neocalvinist literature in the book racks by the coffee shop and man cave with the beer cooler. Then, a job well done, they ride off with their tattooed arms and smokin hot neocal chicks on the back of their Harleys, their long blond Grace Driscoll-hair flowing behind. Doug Wilson might look great in a biker outfit if he grew that beard a little longer, and Mark Driscoll would, of course, be a natural for the gang leader.

  174. Lydia wrote:

    Russ Moore made an anti Trump campaign his mission as Prez of the ELRC. The Reformed wing has gone rabid against him. They are promoting #neverTrump. This is a new twist.

    Russell Moore and Southern Baptists were briefly trending this morning after Teump called Moore “a nasty guy with no heart” in a tweet.

  175. Bridget wrote:

    Do you think this was a purposeful act, i.e., they cooked up this scheme to try send you off?

    No. I think it was just some guys with a copter.

  176. Lea wrote:

    Although now I’m googling him and found an article last year where he says ‘sexual ethics is not an option for a gospel people’ which I guess was about gay marriage or something.

    I was curious about that, so I looked it up. Basically, he said that *surrendering* on gay marriage and sexual ethics is not an option for a gospel people. Which means they’re going to keep up with the culture war.

    Keep it up, guys, keep it up. I’m going to stand outside your charmed circle with my dear friend who is bravely transitioning right now in Deep South state.

  177. Law Prof wrote:

    I’ve thought of doing a spoof on a YRR bike gang with the leather boots and dirty, tattered denim vests with their gang name on back–of course, “Totally Depraved”–maybe a portrait of Calvin embroidered under the name.

    The whole thing sounds amazingly funny. You could probably also spoof other church movements’ excesses in similar fashion.

  178. @ Law Prof:

    a sense of humor kindred spirit!

    now, for who to play who: (this is harder than I thought!)

    john piper character:
    –harry shearer or bob balaban? I can’t decide.

    al mohler character:
    –michael McKean?

    cj character:
    –John Michael Higgins? Fred Willard? Christopher Guest? Ed Begley jr.?

    md character:
    –Christopher guest (he such a chameleon, I bet he could do it)

    Doug Wilson character:
    –Eugene Levy

    Mary Kassian character:
    –Deborah Theaker

    Catherine O’Hara, where would she fit in?

    a comp wife / pastor’s wife
    –Jennifer Coolidge, absolutely

    a frustrated comp wife / pastor’s wife
    –parker posey, can’ you just see it

    a very frustrated comp wife / pastor’s wife, manipulating to get her power (maybe the story’s irony that it’s really this woman who ultimately has all the power and is pulling the strings of the men who only think they have the power)
    –Jane Lynch, without a doubt

    carl Truman character
    –Jim Piddock

  179. May wrote:

    GovPappy wrote:
    So, if you’re uninformed, refuse to be informed, want to hear or see no evil about leaders or churches, then you’ll miss the subtext of an article like this, a subtext which turns an ordinary (if lazy) doctrinal treatise into a defense of sin.
    A very important point. Most of my friends and acquaintances are like this. My husband is too: he prefers to remain uninformed. I mean, he trusts anything printed on the Gospel Coalition site (as Kev’s article) far more than on blogs like TWW. So people like him read TGC and simply take it all at face value and absorb their spin as the truth. And my husband is an intelligent man.

    The pews are full of people like this…..hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil….

  180. Bill M wrote:

    DeYoung’s statement “the elder-pastor-overseer must live a life of Christlike character and virtue that is not easily refuted by those who know him best.” also smacks of the oft repeated ploy brought here by supporters of abusers, “we don’t know the rest of the story”.

    No one knows a person’s character more than those he has interated with who are deemed to be ‘below’ him.

    The elder-pastor-overseer/leader doesn’t maintain the facade for the hoi polloi.

    Of course, we know that he isn’t talking about the hoi polloi – he actually believes that it’s the fellow conference speakers, fellow book-writers, fellow elders who “know him best.’

    Observe how they interact with supposed ‘underlings’ and not just those within their church.

    That will show you a person’s real character.

    .

  181. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    Like J. Vernon McGee. McGee was the real deal, no affectation, very little in the way of baggage. While I may not agree with everything, I’ll listen to McGee before I’ll listen to the YRR anyday.

    J Vernon McGee of “Through the Bible”. I remember him from my time in-country. Very direct, not pretentious at all. Just going through the Bible & teaching from it cover-to-cover every five years. An island of sanity among all the Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrists, Wretched Urgency Witnessing, and No Salvation Outside of Calvary Chapel that dominated Christianese AM radio.

    I remember his opening theme, “A Fertile Foundation”. A couple months ago, it showed up in the hymn rotation at St Boniface and I was expecting to her J Vernon McGee announcing “Through the Bible”.

    HUG – The hymn is “How Firm a Foundation”. It speaks to the inerrancy of Scripture, which JV McGhee was really into. I assume auto-correct got you.

  182. mirele wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Russ Moore made an anti Trump campaign his mission as Prez of the ELRC. The Reformed wing has gone rabid against him. They are promoting #neverTrump. This is a new twist.

    Russell Moore and Southern Baptists were briefly trending this morning after Teump called Moore “a nasty guy with no heart” in a tweet.

    Mirele and Lydia:

    Trump was not my guy in the primary, but I will probably vote for him in the general – warts and all!

    I believe that Moore has done a disservice to his office and himself by being so anti-Trump. And even if he is very anti-Trump, I get that, too.

    But I don’t get calling people who are going to support Trump – people who have lost their Christian values, stupid, racist, etc.

    Even if you thought that, one would think that persuasion would be a better tactic than denunciation – over and over again.

  183. The picture Kevin DeYoung includes in his TGC blog post dated Friday 4/22/16, is an illustration of “Heart Health,” picturing a heart with a stethoscope wrapped around it, as though the heart is receiving a check-up. The title of the post is, “9 Marks of Healthy Biblical Complementarianism” (italics mine). There are 72 comments in response, most of it push-back.

    Interestingly enough, Aimee Byrd (we know her from Mortification of Spin, and from her participation in the podcast on “Bully Pulpits: Abusive Pulpits” on 4/20/16, which addressed the problem surrounding Mahaney, DeYoung’s friend) responded to DeYoung’s post on complementarianism on the same day (4/22/16) in her post, “A Response to Kevin DeYoung’s 9 Marks.” Others weighed in as well, like Scot McKnight at Jesus Creed, on 4/25/16, with his post, “DeYoung’s 9Marks of Complementarianism.” DeYoung blogs again on 4/27/16, ignoring Aimee Byrd’s but responding to the whole Mortification of Spin team in his post “What Does It Mean For An Overseer To Be Above Reproach…?” being discussed here. I don’t know about you, but I can feel the stress.

    Then, after all this, on Friday 4/29/16, only one week after DeYoung posted his article on ‘healthy’ complementarianism, and following a week of relatively high-profile push-back, Kevin blogs again. And, again, he includes a picture with a stethoscope. However, in this new post, DeYoung isn’t talking about resisting the “despised, misunderstood, and counter-cultural” teachings of “healthy” complementarianism – “the core of,” which he says, “is not up for discussion.” No, this time he’s talking about his multiple trips to the doctor. The reason isn’t made known other than it’s not “life threatening.” https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/kevindeyoung/2016/04/29/what-i-have-learned-about-pastoral-care-by-going-to-the-doctor/

    There’s a hill Kevin DeYoung appears willing to die on. Unfortunately, he’s unwilling to listen to any opposition because his position on complementarianism’s “core values” is so fixed, that he’s closed himself off to any discussion over their merits. I’d say that’s not healthy for Kevin DeYoung, but what medical doctor is going to tell him to come down off that hill?

    I agree Kevin DeYoung needs to be appreciated. Don’t we all? But he also needs to show some appreciation to the people who are trying to talk to him, those outside his tight inner circle of complementarians. I wish his wife possessed the wisdom to intervene, and protect her husband from the toxic brand of masculinity that he labors under. And I wish she would do so before her six young children are left without their father.

  184. Anonymous wrote:

    I believe that Moore has done a disservice to his office and himself by being so anti-Trump. And even if he is very anti-Trump, I get that, too.

    IMO, he has done a disservice by entering into the political realm at all. I get it that they think we are too stupid to make wise decisions on who to vote for and we will view them as Godly men who know best for us.

    On another note, I think the fact that the SBC has an ERLC is tres ridiculous.

    How Moore can show his face in the media as part of the tribe that protected Mahaney, promoted patriarchy and insisted that comp was for wimps, was part of the group that insisted on going back to the founders view of the SBC with its Pro chattel slavery while he discusses racism never once mentioning they named a college after a pro chattel slaver in the 1990s and other hypocrisy’s, I will never understand.

    Where are the ethics of that man? Patriarchy was his big issue when he was Dean at sbts. Now his big issues are racism and anti Trump. My guess is both these issues play better in the media and get him more camera time.

  185. @ mirele:
    Oooh. I missed it. Let me assure you that Moore is delighted. Trump said his name and got him much more media attention! In fact this could very well be Moore’s motivation for everything with the blind followers going right along. He is all about his brand.

    He certainly never put any energy into anything anti Driscoll. I guess Moore thinks some some bombastic jerks are more equal than others? :o)

  186. mirele wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Although now I’m googling him and found an article last year where he says ‘sexual ethics is not an option for a gospel people’ which I guess was about gay marriage or something.

    I was curious about that, so I looked it up. Basically, he said that *surrendering* on gay marriage and sexual ethics is not an option for a gospel people. Which means they’re going to keep up with the culture war.

    Keep it up, guys, keep it up. I’m going to stand outside your charmed circle with my dear friend who is bravely transitioning right now in Deep South state.

    Well good luck. They are already starting to address the issue. The article on the Gospel Coalition site from the celibate homosexual Church planter is your hint.

    Now the issue will become something else. As in Freedom of conscience. These guys are smarter than they look, sometimes.

  187. BL wrote:

    no one knows a person’s character more than those he has interated with who are deemed to be ‘below’ him.

    Bingo!

  188. @ Lydia:

    so, who should play who?

    i’m thinking shearer as the piper character. balaban as owen Strachan, russel moore, or bruce ware? or someone else?

  189. Anonymous wrote:

    HUG – The hymn is “How Firm a Foundation”. It speaks to the inerrancy of Scripture, which JV McGhee was really into. I assume auto-correct got you.

    Actually, it was mishearing it over and over. “How Firm A” and “A Fertile” sound alike on a low-def AM car radio in a 1965 Mustang.

    (Just as “O King Eternal” can get misheard as “O Kinky Turtle”; this was how one small-time Web cartoonist got his pseudonym.)

  190. john piper character:
    –bob balaban!
    al mohler character:
    –michael McKean or Eugene Levy could pull off the distant arrogant faux scholar
    cj character:
    Ed Begley jr.
    Doug Wilson character:
    –Too bad Marlon Brando is dead, his apocolypse now character would be perfect.
    Mary Kassian character:
    –Deborah Theaker
    Catherine O’Hara, where would she fit in? Mary Mohler!

  191. Melody wrote:

    I also think it bears repeating how much Kevin DeYoung has been willing to promote Doug Wilson, who is in my view a very sick man. I think this shows a huge lack of discernment on Kevin’s part. I also think much of evangelicalism has a serious issue of cult mentality-they are willing to excuse anything and major in being nice, rather than doing the hard work of being Christlike against the opposition of any majority. This is why abusers like Doug Wilson not only get a pass, they get promoted. And then they promote one another and influence other pastors to be twice the sons of hell they are. I’ve experienced personality change in some people who follow these guys. It’s like dealing with a cult member.

    I think that’s because they ARE cult members.

  192. In my opinion Kevin DeYoung’s Crazy Busy won the Christian Book of the Year award under suspicious circumstances.

    The Christian Book of the Year award is for the “best” book of the year as determined by a panel of judges, and by its “overall impact in the marketplace.”

    DeYoung’s book had neither, as proven by the ECPA book awards and Nielsen Pubtrack POS data (actual sales through Christian bookstores).

    WHY?
    1. It was nominated for the ECPA Christian Book award in the Non-Fiction category, but it didn’t win its own category.

    2. Nielsen Pubtrack data show Crazy Busy has sold only 2157 units through Christian bookstores since Sept 2013 to Apr 2016. Although these data don’t include all store sales, it’s a pretty good indicator that this book was not a hit, and didn’t have much impact.

    The publisher, Crossway, may claim this book had the greatest overall impact in the marketplace, but did it? With only 2157 units sold per Pubtrack it sure doesn’t seem likely. The book’s rank on Amazon isn’t very high either.

    I’d love to know the actual sales figures from Crossway. And how many of those units were free or heavily discounted (over 65%)?

  193. Janey wrote:

    ’d love to know the actual sales figures from Crossway. And how many of those units were free or heavily discounted (over 65%)?

    What about the whole buy back thing for promotion? “Sales” at T$G had to be good, comrade. You are in sin for questioning. What about sales at LifeWay? (Wink)

    Does anyone actually buy books at LifeWay anymore or just plastic fish for the car and Jesus decor?

    On another note, I read somewhere that it is thought Tom Ranier is one of the highest paid in SBC affiliated groups as president of LifeWay. Somewhere over 500,000. One blogger was making the argument he surely should not make more than POTUS? Hee hee

  194. Deb wrote:

    Has anyone in the TWW community purchased DeYoung’s award-winning book Crazy Busy?

    I have!






    … not really. I was just joking.

  195. Deb wrote:

    @ Janey:
    Excellent info! Let’s do a simply poll. Has anyone in the TWW community purchased DeYoung’s award-winning book Crazy Busy?

    Nope. Here on TWW was the first time I even heard of its existence.

  196. Deb wrote:

    @ Janey:
    Excellent info! Let’s do a simply poll. Has anyone in the TWW community purchased DeYoung’s award-winning book Crazy Busy?

    Is “Award-winning” anything like “Honorary Doctorate”?

  197. @ Janey:
    Was it among the books given away for free at T4G? If so, were any of the freebies factored as “impact in the marketplace”? Haha. I’m sure it wasn’t because T4G just happened, but I have seen stats of book sales that were clearly rigged in some cases.

  198. @ elastigirl:
    I thought “Waiting for Guffman” was hilarious. It makes me laugh just thinking about it, and the whole theatrical production of honoring the history of Bland, Missouri by the pioneers who fell short of reaching the coastline, and settled there instead lol.

  199. Janey wrote:

    The Christian Book of the Year award is for the “best” book of the year as determined by a panel of judges, and by its “overall impact in the marketplace.”

    Where have I heard “panel” of judges before? Hee hee.

  200. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Is “Award-winning” anything like “Honorary Doctorate”?

    Certainly. You are hereby awarded the Nick Bulbeck Award for Honorary Doctorate/Award Comparison, May 2016, and can therefore call yourself an “award-winning blogger”.

  201. Deb wrote:

    Excellent info! Let’s do a simply poll. Has anyone in the TWW community purchased DeYoung’s award-winning book Crazy Busy?

    I bought 3 copies. We went camping and forgot to take kindling wood, so I had to run to the nearest LifeWay to get something to use to start the camp fires.

    No, I’d use dollar bills to build a fire before I’d burn my money on Crazy Busy.