"I appeal therefore to the organizers of T4G to remove C.J. Mahaney not only from the roster of speakers but also from the organization itself. It gives me no pleasure to write that sentence."
Together for the Gospel attendees are gathering in Louisville for the sixth time since 2006, and this year's theme is:
We Are Protestant – The Reformation at 500
Of course, conference organizers are capitalizing on that courageous act that rocked the world — Martin Luther's defiant nailing of the 95 Theses to the door of Wittenberg Castle Church on October 31, 1517. Here is a clip of that historic event from one of my favorite movies Luther (2003).
If you haven't seen this inspirational movie (or if you'd like to watch it again), click here.
Getting back to the conference theme, notice the words in RED – We Protest. It appears conference leaders will be raising their voices in some kind of protest. We'll just have to wait and see…
What we can tell you before the event commences is that there are protesters who are protesting T4G. Specifically, these individuals are voicing dissent to C.J. Mahaney being included on the speaking roster. Here are just three of those protesters:
(1) Todd Pruitt, lead pastor of Covenant Presbyterian Church in Harrisonburg, Virginia. Todd, along with Carl Trueman and Aimee Byrd, are contributors to Mortification of Spin, which can be found on the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals website. You can read his bio here. It is interesting that Todd earned degrees at two Baptist institutions; yet he now serves as a pastor at a Presbyterian church.
On Saturday, Todd published An Appeal to the Organizers of Together for the Gospel. That evening some of our commenters began discussing Todd's appeal to the T4G organizers, and as you might imagine, there was a range of opinions. Here are two excerpts that caught our attention (see screen shots below).
You can click on the links in the above screen shot HERE, HERE, and HERE.
Todd Pruitt received so much feedback from this appeal that he wrote a follow-up post, which was published earlier today. In it he stated that:
And, as you can imagine, the feedback has ranged from “thank you” to “how dare you.” That is fine. I don’t mind the pushback (so long as it’s civil). I wrote something for public consumption so public disagreement is not inappropriate at all.
Interestingly, he includes 9 points to clarify his position. These are the ones that stood out to us:
(2) Mark Ammerman, Pastor at Grace Evangelical Congregational Church, Lancaster, PA, sent the following correspondence to T4G leaders, which we have been given permission to share with our readers:
Dear brothers of Together for the Gospel,
With sadness my family sends this letter concerning your recent silence on the request to remove CJ Mahaney from the plenary lineup at T4G 2016. We write to echo that request made by the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), but we do so with love and respect for the organizers and conveners of Together for the Gospel. We have benefitted greatly from the ministry of many of the men who will be speaking this year. I have personally heard many of them preach (at churches and Desiring God conferences and on the Internet), and have several of their written works in my library.
Our request concerning CJ is no knee-jerk reaction to cyber-gossip, but a reasoned request made after years of thought and prayer concerning the issues surrounding the man and his movement. And so we (the Ammermans) implore you (as men of God who must give an account for those who will gather with you in Louisville this week—and for a watching world): do not let power, position, popularity, pride, friendship, fear of man, charisma, mammon, doctrinal camaraderie, or any other thing cause you to forget that God is near to the broken-hearted victims of sexual child abuse. Don’t sideline the wise, prayerful, and reasonable pleas of your brothers and sisters in order to headline a man who (no matter how you may feel about him personally) is in the middle of one of the largest ongoing sex abuse scandals in evangelical history. Please put the greater concern for the “least of these” above your desire to honor a favored son in your midst.
The many victims of child abuse within the churches of Sovereign Grace are like the man who was robbed and beaten and left half dead on the road to Jericho (Luke 15:11-32). The Church has looked away from him and walked on the other side of the road for too long! Will you be the neighbor that our Lord commands us to be? Or not?
Please remember that the world is watching. In our day there are cameras on the Jericho road.
Sincerely yours in the Good Fight of the Faith,
Mark Ammerman
Pastor at Grace Evangelical Congregational Church, Lancaster, PA
www.gracesunday.com
(3) Todd Wilhelm, who lives in Dubai and blogs at Thou Art The Man, sent the following correspondence to Mark Dever, Al Mohler, and Ligon Duncan. He included it in the comment section of this post. Here is a screen shot:
Perhaps these three individuals have been more inspired by Martin Luther than the organizers of T4G. They have penned their concerns and now they have been published for the entire world to see. Imagine what Luther could have done with the internet!
As we announced last week, Pam Palmer and her husband will be protesting outside the KFC Yum! Center along with local representatives from SNAP and others. The Courier Journal has just published an article about the protest. Here is the pertinent information:
Leaders with the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests plan to protest outside the conference Tuesday from noon to 2 p.m. by speaking out about the allegations against Mahaney and the church he formerly pastored, Sovereign Grace Ministries. It was a denomination comprised of a network of dozens of churches now known as Sovereign Grace Churches. The denomination moved its headquarters from Maryland to Louisville.
Please keep those who will be protesting in your prayers. These are the unsung heroes who are working diligently to defend the defenseless – innocent children.
First?
@ Remnant: Congrats!
I got this up last night…this is for Pam and Dominic Palmer. đ
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/an-open-letter-to-pam-palmer-a-modern-day-deborah/
Second! đ
@ David (Eagle):
I read your post this afternoon. Very encouraging!
Mark Ammerman’s letter…tears.
Remnant wishes she could be in Louisville wih PROTESTING with placard:
Mahaney Ain’t No Calvin
On the flip side
T4G Indulges Mahaney’s Sins
I wonder if Luther or Calvin would actually be allowed to teach at this conference given some of the doctrinal differences between your average T4tG pastor and the reformers. I wonder if these 21-century protestants would not like to write some of the more "colorful" denunciations Luther wrote off entire people groups, and Luther's words were backed up by the secular sword. I guarantee some of the T4tG group would love that part of it.
If Peter started enriching himself with indulgences in his ministry, would the name of Christ be known today, or would all the new disciples just have walked out on him?
Before the Reformation, the Roman Catholic Church owned a third of Europe’s land, operated all education and welfare systems, and was the only source of salvation-dependent sacraments. You could leave the Catholic church as much as you could leave the planet Earth. The excesses of the papacy could only happen with this much control of society. SGM wanted all your friends, family, roommates, teachers, and employers to be from the church and this continues to be echoed in neo Cal ideology. This blog has chronicled what happens to people whose livelihoods are completely dependent on one of these “healthy” churches.
So we see who has the spirit of protest, but I also think we see who has the spirit of the medieval Catholic church’s greed and power.
Stan wrote:
And what about ALL those pastors in SGM who were de-gifted, some because of what their ADULT children had done?
You know those little flags they put on light posts in cities that promote something about the city? They had some hung with the “We are Protestant”, the “we and protest” in red. Sigh..
What exactly are they trying to communicate? What is that message to outsiders? I don’t get it.
Lydia wrote:
I think it shows smugness. Braggadocious comes to mind. They want to appeal to the Rebel in society. Maybe the hipsters, the Occupiers, and the MalContents are their audience.
Oh…and the Angry Young Men (that Billy Joel wrote and sung about). ^^
You know what’s funny about the T4G Protestant images–their signs have nothing on them. Not.a.darn.thing. So what are they “protest”ing? Anything? Or are the participants just showing up empty-headed so they can be filled up with the latest and greatest from the Neo-Calvinist celebrity pastor circuit?
I’ll keep all you lovely people in Louisville out in front of the YUM! Center in mind tomorrow morning as I’m working. I think the T4G celebrity pastors and their followers need to be confronted with the reality that child abuse exists, it happens in their churches, and it’s very likely they know some great leader of theirs has covered abuse up.
Oh yes, don’t forget the #standbyCJ hashtag. I’m sure it will be in operation tomorrow, as it was today.
Deb wrote:
You know what’s funny about that? John MacArthur was quoted on Twitter today as saying “Parenting should be judged by the faithfulness of the parents, not the outcome of the children.” I assume that applies as long as you’re one of the elect and haven’t fallen out of favor with your fellow pastor who wants to push you out?
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Dirty Little Secrets: “501(c)3 Calvinesta Church ‘Creepy’ Just Got Creepy’r?”
hmmm…
…Of course, conference organizers are ‘glorifying’ the despicable act of SGM/SGC’s harboring of pedophiles by their in-actions ; that despicable act that recently rocked the Christian world — C.J. Mahaney’s defiant 40 year non-removal of known multiple pedophile’s access to children…
huh?
Two recent Maryland court cases have effectively nailed the charges of pedophillia to the door of former SGM flagship, Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
What?
More to follow?
Are Calvinist organizations such as T4G signaling that access to children by pedophiles in a 501(c)3 religious setting is simply an occupational hazard?
Or possably no hazard at all?!?
Skreeeeeeeeetch !
Cue the creepy music… Pedophile thriller in the Calvinist 501(c)3 churches?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cKEHQrgmv2Q
C.J. Mahaney would be happy to see you and your family next Sunday in a SGC church near you! The possibility of free roaming pedophile(s) ‘there’ will have free and unrestricted access to your children?
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
Scary.
B careful, out there…
(sadface)
Sopy
__
P.S. If SGM history serves as any plausible guide, there will be potentially no ‘future’ action on the part of T4G as Mahaney has more than likely already bought and paid for their ‘silence’; and probably blackmail’d them a thing or two as well? Ching! Ching!
—
@ Darlene:
Yep. But what first comes to mind? The Catholics?
Oh dear.
Lydia wrote:
Well, I think it’s evident what these Protestants think of the Catholics. They aren’t Christians as far as they’re concerned.
 __
Baptist News: “Abuse survivors want conference speaker removed”
 A support group for clergy sex abuse victims is asking organizers of an upcoming religious conference to revoke a speaking invitation to a pastor accused of concealing multiple sex crimes.
The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests said March 31 that allowing controversial Pastor C.J. Mahaney to speak at the April 12-14 Together for the Gospel gathering in Louisville, Ky., would âbe tantamount to re-victimizing sex abuse victimsâ and send a message to would-be whistleblowers: âDonât bother speaking up. No one will care.â
âItâs reckless and callous when clergymen give prominent positions to colleagues who face charges of concealing child sex crimes,â said SNAP director David Clohessy.
SNAP leaders called on conference organizers Mark Dever, Albert Mohler and Ligon Duncan to withdraw this yearâs invitation to Mahaney, a T4G founder who sat out the last conference two years ago due to publicity over a class-action lawsuit alleging he and others sheltered at least 15 child molesters while pastor of a Maryland church and director of a church-planting network now known as Sovereign Grace Churches.
âEvery time an accused or admitted complicit church official is honored, it discourages victims, witnesses and whistleblowers from exposing predators, warning parents and protecting kids,â said Pam Palmer, a former member of Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Md., whose daughter was molested by a teenager while Mahaney was pastor of the church in 1993.
Palmer claimed in the lawsuit pastors advised her not to call the police, but the family had already done so, and six months later arranged a âreconciliationâ meeting where the 3-year-old was forced to face her abuser and was so frightened she crawled under her motherâs chair.
A judge in Maryland eventually dismissed the lawsuit due to a statute of limitations that requires victims of child-sex abuse to file a civil lawsuit within seven years of turning 18. The lawyer representing the alleged victims is preparing a similar lawsuit to be filed in Virginia.
A member of Covenant Life Church testified at a recent hearing in the Maryland state senate claiming allegations of abuse and cover-up at the church were âundoubtedly false.â A plaintiff in the lawsuit commented on the SGM Survivors blog her assessment of the case was âunbelievableâ and âlacks any compassion for the victims.â
More recently a second member of the congregation was arrested for alleged sex crimes. Larry Caffery, 66, was charged March 16 with 11 counts of sex abuse and false imprisonment.
Brent Detwiler, a former associate of Mahaneyâs and now a leading critic, says church leaders were aware of a book Caffery wrote confessing he once feared that if he ever had a daughter he might sexually abuse her but still allowed him to work in the congregationâs childrenâs ministry.
A former member of Covenant Life Church, Nate Morales, was sentenced in 2014 to 40 years in prison for molesting at least four boys while serving in the youth ministry in the 1980s. During the trial a longtime pastor admitted in hindsight he should have reported Morales to police in 1992. Morales moved to Nevada and married a woman with five sons who filed for divorce when he was arrested.
Attention to the scandal was renewed recently with stories in the Washingtonian and Time magazines.
Mahaney, now pastor of Sovereign Grace Church in Louisville, Ky., withdrew from leadership of the T4G conference in 2014, saying he didnât want negative publicity about the lawsuit to be a distraction. A photo showing him at the conference seated with speakers on the front row subsequently appeared on several blogs.
Recently Mahaney, whose church is now affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, said in a promotional video he is eager for his return.
âI canât wait for the opening song of T4G,â Mahaney gushed. âI canât wait to add my voice to your voice at the opening song of T4G 2016.â
SNAP leaders said even if they donât believe the accusations of cover-up are true, T4G leaders should consider the âimplications toward the gospel messageâ if sexual abuse victims are hurt again âfor the sake of the popularity of a preacher and the financial success of a conference.â
âGiving corrupt men like Mahaney praise and visibility adds to the already strong sense of powerlessness that many who saw, suspected and suffered clergy sex crimes feel,â Palmer said. âIt decreases the chances theyâll find the courage and hope needed to speak up about horrific wrongs. So it basically sanctions the concealing of sexual assaults against children.â
Joining Mahaney in this yearâs T4G lineup are regulars Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; Dever, senior pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington and president of president of 9Marks ministries; and Duncan, chancellor and CEO of Reformed Theological Seminary.
Other speakers include Calvinist author John Piper of Desiring God ministries; Thabiti Anyabwile, pastor of Anacostia River Church in Washington; Matt Chandler, lead pastor at The Village Church in Dallas who last year apologized for mishandling a church discipline case involving child pornography; and David Platt, president of the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Along with Mahaney, SNAP urged conference leaders to disinvite two Sovereign Grace Churches officials scheduled to lead a breakout session. [1]
__
[1] https://baptistnews.com/2016/03/31/abuse-survivors-want-conference-speaker-removed/
—
Well, this is a watershed moment for T4G.
Forgive me if I have long since written off the bigwigs of “Christianity” regardless of which camp they are from – “But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)âwell, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.”
But, for those children who will have no choice but to grow up in this organization, I hope for the best, that eyes will at least open and recognize the truth.
Oh dear, complementarianism is taking a beating over this scandal. Good. It’s time the connection was recognized.
I don’t know what they are getting at by “we are protestant,” most likely some ad agency came up with that one.
Stan wrote:
Excellent summary.
Darlene wrote:
I can’t say anything to what their current attitudes are, but when I was in these circles Catholicism was still a Big Enemy – second only to those who wanted a serious theological dialogue with Catholics. The wars of religion (at least metaphorically) never really ended as far as these guys are concerned…
Do you know what my ultimate prayer for CJ Mahaney is at this conference??? That, if he is allowed to speak, that he breaks down in genuine repentance, confessing to all he’s been accused of, honestly humbled in dust and ashes and pleading for the forgiveness of God and all families touched by this wretched Sin! And, that he goes out to the protesters and to each family involved, personally asking for their forgiveness and whatever else he could do for true reconciliation and healing to begin. That is my prayer.
As T4G2016 kicks off today, this is a MUST READ post written a year ago by Dee, who protested Kevin DeYoung's attempt to silence those of us who are standing up for the 'weak and wounded'.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/04/22/kevin-deyoungs-controversial-post-calling-some-bloggers-weeping-prophets/
Kevin DeYoung, a member of the three-man panel that deemed C.J. Mahaney ‘fit for ministry’, wrote a blog post last year, which included the following:
This little diatribe has left me wondering… Does DeYoung think before he writes?
Lydia wrote:
I'm sure the almost 14% of Catholics who live in Louisville are rolling their eyes when they see those flags.
http://www.bestplaces.net/religion/metro/kentucky/louisville
Did Mr. DeYoung ever enlighten us as to how the truth and the marginalized are to be uplifted, without taking down those doing the lying and marginalizing? Just pray that God will sort it out in His own good time? That was not the m.o. Jesus and the Apostles used in dealing with predatory shepherds, if I read my Bible correctly…
I am glad to see Pruitt repeating and expanding on his point about the financial motives.
If your love is for money more than people you are not acting for God anymore…
Please stand with my mom, Pamela Palmer, along with SNAP and others as they protest today in Louisville, KY! I created a petition below so we all can show our support in this protest.
Sign this petition to have C.J. Mahaney removed as a speaker at the Together for the Gospel Conference this week!
https://www.change.org/p/together-for-the-gospel-remove-c-j-mahaney-from-speaking-at-together-for-the-gospel-conference?recruiter=525690533&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
What kind of message does is spread when a leader facing serious allegations of covering up child sex abuse is in the spotlight as a speaker at a large Christian conference?
Share on Facebook and Twitter using the hashtag #T4GStandWithSurvivors
@ Renee Gamby:
Thanks for sharing this information Renee! I just signed the petition, and hope I many more will sign it.
@ Deb:
Thanks! I hope so too!
@ Cindy Meyers:
We can dream, can’t we?
@ Renee Gamby:
C.J. is an idiot and a person who has no social sense (or more likely is a narcissist.) I fear for his punishment one day, knowing how many people he has driven away from God, while purporting to do the opposite. He could have easily prevented me from taking steps to preserve my mental and emotional health, but thankfully my Mama raised me with some sense, and that ultimately came through.
@ Former CLCer:
And the T4G leaders are enablers who are profiting from this marketing ploy.
I take comfort in knowing that none of this is escaping the attention of Almighty God.
Eeyore wrote:
Of course not. He because, as you already know, he is in no way interested in uplifting that particular group of marginalized. He was only interested in shutting up people who were pointing out the liars and marginalizers (I know. Not a real word, yet.).
Sopwith wrote:
The SBC has gone pretty downhill lately. #formerbaptist
PROTESTers are tweeting up Twitter, for those who can’t join Pamela Palmer in Louisville today.
#T4G2016
#CBMW16
Former CLCer wrote:
That’s quite a dream. Wish it would come true.
@ Renee Gamby:
I love you, Renee! Love this petition. I will be holding your photo today at the protest.
Deb wrote:
What about their Predestined Elect decoder rings?
And their Get Out Of Hell Free Cards signed by God before the Foundation of the World?
And their Perfectly Parsed Truly REFORMED Theology?
(After all, CALVIN had God All Figured Out! How Dare God go against CALVIN’s Institutes!)
Deb wrote:
That sounds like a compliment. It certainly sounds more biblical than anything these guys are doing.
Eeyore wrote:
“Pray About It and Trust The LOORD…”
“I Got Mine,
I Got Mine,
I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
NOW THAT I GOT MINE…”
— Glenn Frye, “I Got Mine”
I am stunned that so many respected church leaders (McArthur, Piper, Platt, DeYoung) would associate themselves with Mahaney’s organization. Not just because of the cover ups, but also because of the decades of control and oppression his organization and churches burdened on their church members.
And Piper, McArthur, et al don't exert control and oppression? Just advocate modern science with McArthur (i.e. Old earth, modern psychology, etc.)
Mac wrote:
Lea wrote:
wondering if Mahaney and his group’s new doctrines of disgrace required some financial leverage in order to get entry in the door of the SBC? If so, then the SBC is in more trouble than its decline in membership and fewer baptisms reveal . . .
Jeff Chalmers wrote:
How can people respect those who support the shielding of paedophiles and the attempted silencing of victims? It’s a strange ‘respect’ that doesn’t question WHY these ‘leaders’ would do such a thing openly. I must ask WHAT was the incentive for these leaders to risk their own supposed good names? The other side of that question would be WHY they felt they had no choice but to take this shielder of paedophiles in to their august presence? Things like this beg questions. I would rather know the truth than ‘guess’ at reasons; but I would say these ‘leaders’, by their action of receiving Mahaney, have now themselves become absorbed into Mahaney’s world . . . and there is a darkness in that world that does not give honor to Our Lord or to the Church.
Sopwith wrote:
And not a peep from SBC national leadership about Mahaney and the SGM scandal! Of course, they wouldn’t dare challenge Al Mohler who supports Mahaney, since Mohler pretty much controls SBC direction at this point. Both Mahaney and Mohler appear to be bullet-proof.
Renee Gamby wrote:
I signed it Renee. God bless you and your mom and dad. I am praying for them.
I just published a blog about the lead pastor at Immanuel Baptist Church in Louisville. He stands with Mahaney. In a video on the post, he says his heroes are Dever and Mohler! It is hard for me to understand why anyone would stay in a church pastored by this guy. Of course, they have membership contracts and his sermon last week was on church discipline.
https://thouarttheman.org/2016/04/12/ryan-fullerton-immanuel-baptist-church-louisville-supports-cj-mahaney/
Stan wrote:
Oh. Please.
Someone needs to read some actual medieval history by actual non-polemical scholars. #Messy #Complex #NotTheSoCalledDarkAges
T4G ….. Together for the gospel?
No!
T4P ….. Together for pedophiles!
Max wrote:
Max, on a more superficial point, as a SBC lifer doesn’t it bother you that so many SBC leaders (Mohler, Platt, etc) are devoting so much time to extra-denominational activities? Shouldn’t they be focused (as employees) on the working within the convention?
@ Renee Gamby:
I’m in.
Christiane wrote:
I don’t believe they see any risk. Have they been damaged so far? Not that I see. They just accuse people of being bitter or having the wrong theology and move right along. Or blogs being of the devil. Or ‘the courts had their say’. I don’t think things in this bunch will be fixed until people start leaving their churches and teachings in droves, because of their lack of heart.
(I have to also chime in as to not understanding what they are actually protesting).
Bless Pam and all the SNAP folks!
Christiane wrote:
Whoa! Would make a great book title documenting the continuing string of “disgraces” emerging in New Calvinist ministries. From Driscoll to Mahaney, and the host of issues raised by watchblogs, the examples are many.
Consider the following quotes from Dietrich Bonhoeffer in light of developments within New Calvinism:
“Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares … Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system … Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner … Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves.”
“Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and self all that he has … Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock … It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: ‘ye were bought at a price,’ and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us.”
For folks who tout “grace, grace, grace” all the time, the new reformers don’t seem to understand much about it.
Pruitt’s point #9:
“I repeat my motive in all of this: The reputation of our Lord, his church, the Doctrines of Grace, complemetarianism, and biblical church discipline are taking a beating over this scandal. The damage being done is significant.”
Is it just me, or does this statement really rub anyone else the wrong way?
FW Rez wrote:
Yes, it bothers me greatly! As an old guy and a sometimes reluctant participant in the blogosphere, I continue to express my humble (but accurate) opinion about this to anyone who will listen. But, I’m only a small voice crying in the wilderness of SBC theo-politics. The SBC big boys haven’t expressed much concern about SBC’s reformers participating in non-SBC activities and organizations (Acts29, SGM, T4G, TGC, etc., etc.) … so little ole me can’t do much about it.
@ Renee Gamby:
Done Renee….
Nancy2 wrote:
He should have stopped with the lord and his church. The rest is trendy/damaging nonsense.
I think Pruitt is sort of partway there, he’s realized CJ is a problem, and he’s realized the profit motive/buddybuddyness is a problem. Ammerman is all there.
Mac wrote:
They are also as authoritatian as CJs church’s ever were.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Immanuel Baptist was dead little church in a bad neighborhood on the outskirts of downtown. It seats about 200. It was saved to supply jobs for the YRR. The real question is who pays for it? The sbts students tend to do "tours" there to get the title, pastor. Tom Schreiner's son was there for a bit. The congregation is made up mostly of seminary students. It is right down the street from one of the Sojourn churches, an Acts 29 plant.
Too many young boys, not enough churches. Ryan is trying to promote himself… Get Mohler's attention as a true loyalist. That is what they do. I just want to know where the money is coming from. It's not the neighborhood congregation.
Nancy2 wrote:
Yes, it does? Look what he added to the Lord and his church, as if they are all one. NOT.
Renee Gamby wrote:
Done and done!
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
Are secular scholars OK?
@ Nancy2:
Yes. He is making it clear it is about systems and doctrines for him. Not actual people. He will likely protest and say those systems and doctrines are about people. But some of us are wiser than him and not making our living selling such drivel.
Mahaney is nothing more or less than an embarrassment to him.
But all that came out in his original post, too.
Lea wrote:
The rest is their brand. It’s a partial list of what distinguishes this brand of church from the rest of the Church. So yes, they are sustaining damage to their brand and to the extent that they are worried about their brand, it’s an issue. He should be more concerned about the damage to the name of Christ, and perhaps he is. Perhaps the list was in descending order of importance.
Abi Miah wrote:
One can only hope. I honestly don’t see why the “Doctrines of Grace” or gender comp got a mention from Pruitt at all.
Abi Miah wrote:
I hope so. I am inclined to think he’s starting to get it, but can’t quite let go of his ‘brand’/buddies.
But I give him credit for calling out profit as a motive.
Renee Gamby wrote:
What kind of message does it spread when 8,000 pastors and pastors-in-training choose to attend said conference knowing that such a man has been given a platform?! I’m sure Mr. Mahaeny will deliver a moving speech, identifying himself with the undeserved sufferings of Job, and thousands will be slinging snot as they honor him. New Calvinism is a strange phenomenon.
@ Renee Gamby:
I signed with this comment:
I also posted this article on my blog: An Open Letter to âTogether for the Gospelâ: Donât Tether Your Future to C.J. Mahaneyâs Past. This may well be their “Spotlight” moment …
https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2016/04/12/open-letter-to-t4g-on-tethering-their-future-to-cj-mahaneys-past/
EXCERPT:
While it may appear that T4G merely inherited controversy by their protecting and promoting Mr. Mahaney, I would suggest that this has gone far beyond controversy; it is now about institutionalizing their complicity. By continued refusal to use their influence to promote resolution through SGM taking responsibility for abuse, T4G leaders and participants adopt a posture of contempt and cronyism in standing against SGM survivors of child sexual abuse and their family members, and inside whistleblowers and outside advocates for justice.
If T4G as a movement truly believes in the saving and transforming grace of the gospel, this is the moment they can demonstrate that commitment â by removing C.J. Mahaney from both speaking at this yearâs T4G event, and from active participation in future proceedings, until justice has been restored and restitution has been made. Otherwise, T4G continues to tether its future to C.J. Mahaney’s past and the abuses of his Sovereign Grace Ministries network â and T4G will orbit around this polarizing issue in the Church until it shows gospel-centered conscience and compassion, and makes things right.
I urge T4G leaders and participants to consider this request, the goodness of the gospel that will be demonstrated by remediation, and the evil that will endure in failure to take action.
Bridget wrote:
Have a friend is a Presbyterian pastor. He often speaks/writes quite similar when he is defending/deriding a particular issue, lately for him, politics. It’s as if they believe THE church is theirs alone, doctrines of grace is the ONLY acceptable means of salvation,and complementarianism is regarded as an ordinance.
Who cares what flavor of church/denomination, child abuse is found in? Why are the doctrines of grace, etc. to be protected? The paramount issue is getting the abuse rooted out rooted, the perpetrators punished, and justice given to the victim.
Max wrote:
“RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
— Ralph Bakshi, Wizards
Max wrote:
North Korea touts “The People(TM)” and “Democratic Democratic Democratic” all the time…
Darlene wrote:
Apostate Romish Popery(TM), with their Pagan Doctrines and Priestly Caste lording it over the pewsitters…
Mae wrote:
The only reason to care is if the abuse in the church reveals a problem with the doctrine. Which it kind of does.
Once a man tastes of the sweet fruit of making a name for himself, having too many people hold him up in high honor praising him for his every flawless word, thought and idea, getting good money and gifts from the congregants, finding solace in his wife and children getting good money for their health coverage, being able to buy their wife a good safe car with good tires to drive the kids to the free safe church school, money to set aside for a hobby and retirement, money for vacations, a good home in a safe neighborhood, many find it hard TO EVER be able to be honest and decent people again.
Things are bound to come along and jeopardize everything they have come to be comfortable with. They are simply compromised and it will take a heap of scorn and maybe even a criminal charge against them to ever change their hardened way of thinking. Some will even go to jail and will still not see the light. If they ever get the boot for any reason, all they ever want is to get back in the saddle as quickly as possible. It’s too lucrative a gig to let go without a fight no matter who gets hurt. This, unfortunately, is one thing that life has shown me.
T4G now live: http://live.t4g.org
Lydia wrote:
Just like classic Communists.
All about the Ideology and abstraction of “The People(TM)”.
Not actual people.
Deb wrote:
As of now, they NEVER existed.
doubleplusunpersons.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
The Great Courses aka The Teaching Company has a lot of stuff in their history collection. For those who may not know about these people they sell lecture series from various university professors of various backgrounds in a lot of different fields. Back before poverty struck me down in my old age I used to avail myself of right much of their stuff.
However, I must warn folks that in some seriously fundamentalist protestant circles there is massive rejection of any scholarship which does not carry their in-house brand.
Max wrote:
Their grace more closely resembles works of the law, with their efforts toward church membership, church discipline and the subordination of women. Rules, rules, rules.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Because THAT is actually what he is defending, not the victims of abuse.
@ Ted:
Agreed. New Calvinism is not characterized by freedom in Christ. While talking “grace”, these leaders bring folks back under the law. I particularly feel bad for women trapped in this belief system; during a visit at a local SBC-YRR church plant, I could sense a spirit of oppression on the young women there.
As much as we applaud a neocalvinist calling out C. J., there is so much irony in it coming from Todd Pruitt.
He, a pastor who fled Church of the Saviour in Pennsylvania, after instituting the most authoritarian structure that Church had ever seen. He, who, shortly after being installed as pastor restructured the power of the Church away from the diversity of elder leadership to consolidate it under him, in much the same way we have seen other Calvinists do.
Todd, who misled the congregation as to why he took such a lengthy “sabbatical”…..who never owned up to his own horridly abusive leadership… Most especially to female staffers. Who took no responsibility for the spiritual and emotional abuse….who fled to the “protection” of the PCA without even attempting to resolve the hurt and pain he left behind. Then had the temerity to publish a series of articles about churches who abuse pastors!!!!!!
Todd: take the plank out of your own eye first!!!!
@ Elizabeth:
Could you contact the Deebs. This sounds like an interesting story that should be written about.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Snort!
Nancy2 wrote:
Dang scandal is screwing up biblical⢠gender roles.
@ Elizabeth:
I thought authoritarianism and arrogance was dripping off his blog post. Thanks for the account.
@ okrapod:
I used to love the Great Courses! But they did not come cheap…
@ Elizabeth:
Interesting! I know nothing about this man beyond these two articles..
@ Ted:
Ted…it’s kind of how Communist countries operate. For example:
Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea (North Korea)
German Democratic Republic (East Germany)
People’s Republic of China (China)
All these references to Republic or Democracy, yet how thriving is North Korea as a democracy? Was East Germany a democracy? Why was a wall built across E. Berlin?
Its propaganda…just like churches that advertise grace, grace, grace… Its a play on words.
@ dee: Agreed!
@ Dave (Eagle):
TV Tropes calls it “People’s Republic of Tyranny”.
The more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.
Watching C.J. Mahaney’s “sermon” at T4G right now, and it’s even more surreal than you could imagine. Al Mohler introduced him, with a commendation for his “endurance through trial”. Unbelievably, Mahaney is speaking on suffering and how it “takes time to recover from grief”. Like I said, it’s surreal.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Ryan Fullerton says that Mark Dever “obeys every word of Scripture carefully.” Wow. I thought only Jesus did that. Fullerton says we should follow Dever’s “example.” Maybe he really DOES put Dever on the level of Jesus. Or his doctrine is as sloppy as his praise of Dever is slobbering.
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
Let’s not get HUG started on that. He’ll probably quote from 1984…
I was just over on your blog, Dave/Eagle. Thanks for posting the ABC News video at the top about Sovereign Grace Ministries (there’s that “G” word again).
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/04/11/an-open-letter-to-pam-palmer-a-modern-day-deborah/
JeffB wrote:
That statement is disgusting on so many levels. From pandering to an outright impossibility. Perhaps the moniker of “modern day Pharisee” is appropriate after all.
Well, Mahaney is speaking now. Congratulations, T4G.
So it has been a LONG time (thankfully) since I heard CJ speak but is it just me or has his voice changed? I mean to me it almost sounds like he pronounces “God” with a much more British accent? Am I imaging that – his voice and the way he pronounces sounds more educated? I only listened to about 2-3 minutes of the live stream so maybe I am just imaging this. I couldn’t listen to more. When he came to my SGM church, I always worked in childcare to avoid having to listen with the exception of one time so maybe I don’t really remember what he sounds like after all this time.
OK so I listened to a little bit more – I think he is basically the same ole CEEJ but I also think I did definitely hear him say "God" in a somewhat British way. Is it just me?
@ Renee Gamby:
Signed. God bless you, your mama and your family. You are not alone! Will be with her in spirit <3
Together for the gospel is nothing more than an Amway like pyramid scheme. Thousands of men come there to learn the secret methods of how to build a large successful Church. The appeal of being rich powerful and able to do things on the cheap is what is appealing to them. They think they are right in their Doctrine and they want to live a successful life like the men they see on stage.
CJ pulled it off.
By some sort of spiritual osmosis, he is now as innocent as Job.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Agreed!
@ Ted:
Ted…what would a blog be without HUG! đ And 1984 being quoted đ
When I get home I am working on my open letter to Mark Dever, and its going to be stern. Reading all this about Mahaney really pisses me off. This is just outrageous.
Max wrote:
Shamanism. Plain and simple.
@Eagle … Before you write, check out tweets #T4G2014. People are pouring out love and appreciation on CJ. He’s the man of the hour!
Meanwhile, Jesus wept.
@ doubtful. Do the math. 10,000 x $300 entry fee. Less expenses. Someone is making a ton of money off the Gospel this week.
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
I’m not suggesting he stop. I’m inviting it.
“Ministry of Truth.” “Ministry of Love.”
Fondly nicknamed minitrue and minilove…
By the way, WAY off topic here, but I just read an article by John MacArthur entitled “Membership is Submission.” First thing I thought of was the 1984 slogans:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
I can’t make this stuff up.
@ Ted:
Ted, that ranks up there with his statement “to be a Christian is to be complementarian.”
@ Burwell:
Words fail me.
I would love to hear from Pam Palmer about the protest today.
Deb wrote:
I signed as well. For those who ignore this cry for justice, I believe they will sorely regret it one day.
__
Is CAVINISM Semi-Gnosticism?
Please examine the following informative video:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=Is+CAVINISM+Gnosticism%3F&form=APIPA1
—
Signed.
Doubtful wrote:
An interesting (and applicable) way to look at T4G! At the apex of the pyramid are the “Fab 4”: Al Mohler, Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, and C.J. Mahaney. As you slide down the pyramid, other who’s-who emerge in the reformed pecking order (Piper, Chandler, Platt, DeYoung). At the base of the pyramid are thousands of young, restless and reformed who aspire to climb the pyramid, but are limited in their ascent by those who sit on the apex controlling the myriad of players, activities, and revenue. Only the blessed elite can ever enter the throne room. Welcome to New Calvinism!
Edward wrote:
“Together for Calvinism” to the very end.
Mac wrote:
Max, I am not surprised or stunned at all. Arrogance knows no bounds and when a Movement – and Neo-Calvinism is a Movement – believes itself to be Right, and the only ones possessing the True Gospel – they will not back down. Other forces will have to take effect outside of their ghettoized version of Christianity in order to bring them to a halt. It may be that the secular courts and society in general will be the force that humbles them.
Whoops….meant to say Mac.
Nancy2 wrote:
I’ll add to that, Nancy.
T4C….Together for Calvinism
T4C….Together for Complementarianism
T4M….Together for Mahaney
T4M….Together for Mohler
T4P….Together for Piper
What grief is C.J.M. recovering from??
Edward wrote:
Bridget wrote:
In their minds of the Neo-Cals, the Doctrines of Grace, Complementarianism & church discipline are inseparable from the gospel. Their tweets from this conference bear this out regarding Comp. doctrine. For them, Complementarianism is the gospel and visa versa. For them, Comp. marriages are a reflection of the gospel. For them, their version of church discipline is a reflection of the gospel. For them, the Doctrines of Grace ARE the gospel. Never, ever forget that they believe with every fiber of their being that: CALVINISM IS THE GOSPEL.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I will sound like a broken record here but: It’s because the Doctrines of Grace and Gender Comp. teaching are on par with the gospel and the Lord and His church in their minds. They are inseparable.
Jeff Chalmers wrote:
JeffB wrote:
Jeff, was that a tweet that this Fullerton fella sent out or something he actually said at the conference? Wait a minute….I thought these folks teach that they have no righteousness of their own. Or is that only meant for the Pew Peons?
Edward wrote:
Well then, as of this point on they have publicly shown who they support and who they have ignored. This will come back to bite T4G and C.J.’s supporters on the butt. But for now, they are at ease in Zion. For now, they soak up the accolades.
Remnant wrote:
Marjo documentary ain’t got nothing on these Neo-Cals savvy to make money.
Cindy Meyers wrote:
Huh.
And here I was, just hoping for a lightning bolt.
Some Louisville news coverage of Mahaney protest:
“Sexual abuse survivors, families protest protestant pastors conference in downtown Louisville” http://www.wdrb.com/story/31705423/sexual-abuse-survivors-families-protest-protestant-pastors-conference-in-downtown-louisville
“SNAP plans to protest controversial pastor” http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2016/04/11/snap-plans-protest-controversial-pastor/82900258/
Max wrote:
Blessed are those at the apex of the pyramid for they shall inherit idol status with all its privileges.
__
Is CAVINISM Semi-Gnosticism?
Please examine the following informative video:
Did Augustine corrupt the church with Gnosticism?
(corrected link)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mhLF-llpFX0
—
Darlene wrote:
And if anyone doubts that, consider Al Mohler’s words in his talk today: “The Solas were not just slogans, they were a matter of life and death. Without those Solas, there is no gospel.”
The New Calvinists agree with C.H. Spurgeon when he said “I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel and nothing else.”
Max wrote:
“THERE IS NO GOSPEL, ONLY SOLAS.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljCnqii8Qgw
Remnant wrote:
Like PUCKER POWER!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_-fcN5x49w
(Couldn’t find the one in the series with the guy leading a parade doing soft-shoe in his PJs…)
Interesting… There are traditionally 3, and over the last century, 5 “solar”….. Some of these T4G gang do not practice the “solar” if you have to be a member of their church to take communion….
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Max wrote:
I call that idolatry, and BS.
Lydia wrote:
Many of their courses are now available on Audible for $20 or less. Cheaper if you use Audible credits.
Lydia wrote:
Are these on city property? That would be inappropriate.
Darlene wrote:
Is it wrong that I kept thinking of apex predators? Wolves preying on the sheep, maybe?
In other news:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/04/12/darrin-patrick-has-been-relieved-of-pastoral-duties-at-the-journey/
Inappropriate meetings conversations and phone calls with 2 women, but apparently no adultery…
Apparently the board has been confronting him for years about a whole laundry list of other sins with little progress– but of course action was needed once “inappropriate” stuff was discovered.
Max wrote:
How many of them actually know? As we’ve seen, even his cronies have studiously avoided any knowledge of the issues. For the average attenders, where would they come across the information, unless they tend to read much outside of their bubble? I don’t know, I’m asking, do many of the average followers even understand what has happened?
Mac wrote:
Birds of a feather flock together…
Darlene wrote:
It’s from a sermon Fullerton gave at a 9Marks meeting at SBTS. Here’s the link (supplied by Todd Wilhelm) in which it’s embedded.
Whoops, forgot the link: https://thouarttheman.org/2016/04/12/ryan-fullerton-immanuel-baptist-church-louisville-supports-cj-mahaney/
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Me too.
@ JeffT:
I had no idea. I looked at one i wanted a few months ago but it was 129. I have seen audible advertised on PBS but not checked it out. Thanks for the heads up.
__
“Urinating In Da Wind, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
 A statute of limitations extinguished many of C. J. Mahaney’s  deleterious detractors in the State of Maryland. His ‘johnny come lately’ [snooze you loose] detractors had their day in civil court and ‘lost’.
(sadface)
huh?
A wall of supporters and high dollar promoters now protect the flank of this profound protagonist.
What?
These T4G folks have effectively declared with their faithful support and eager devotion – judging by a ‘court’ of ‘his’ reeligious peers, that apparently C.J. Mahaney is not guilty of any defrocable or chargeable crime.
Skreeeeeeeeetch!
Ignorance is bliss, huh?
Ching Ching
The civil authorities could now ‘possibly’ bring a hundred more ‘civil’ court cases against this former Maryland religious official and it wouldn’t change a dang thing;Â i.e. C.J. Mahaney being a ‘privileged religious official’, was not ‘required’ – in the State of Maryland, -to report such ‘crimes’ that may have come to light in and in relation to his 501(c)3 non-profit organization, i.e. his church, – on his watch ta boot.
He could have know of a ‘hundred’ such incidents and still remained under the code of legal non-disclosure for religious officials in Maryland.Â
Powerful religious officials outside of the SGM/SGC religious 501(c)3 organization support this law of non-disclosure by the clergy in the State of Maryland.
Many attempts have been made to change this ‘law’ to no avail.
Next batter?
(sadface)
They could always try him for tax evasion… Â đ
Sopy
—
 __
“A Free Gift Offered To You?”
hmmm…
Hear the good news of Jesus’ gospel in this short video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qiKRtvq31n0
God so lived you that He gave His only Son, that if you will believe in Him, you will not perish but have everlasting life…
( No expensive conference required. )
Reaerve your free gift today!
ATB Â đ
Sopy
—
“Solas” not “solar”. Darn spell checker
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Like a mighty flow of molten lava, the mass of 10,000 Calvinistas gathered in Kentucky pulse with energized hell-fire “holy” testosterone on a holy mission to infiltrate the world with their brand of The Gospel.
My thoughts are with the victims and their families this morning as the world of Christendom seems to be among the evil forces on the planet in this day and age.
While some evil forces are evident by their blood shed, this force goes forth with the smiling faces of the self-righteous self-deceived. While some evil forces trample human bodies, this force tramples human hearts.
Take heart you down trodden. This force, though gaining strength in these latter days, will be defeated, They have made their choice to stand with blinded eyes and deaf ears, to harden their hearts, to call evil good and good evil. They raise a collective voice to heaven and declare themselves righteous and true,
But there is a Way, a Truth and a Life and He is not fooled by rhetoric of speech and grandiose gestures. His precious blood was not spilled for naught. He is not fooled.
Come Lord Jesus. Come quickly.
http://www.mortificationofspin.org/mos/postcards-from-palookaville/could-big-eva-face-a-trump-moment#.Vw5I4qBOnqC
Carl Trueman knows nothing of a panel of high profile Reformed ministers that declared CJ Mahaney fit for ministry.
siteseer wrote:
The young reformers are so infatuated in their New Calvinist idols that they have become deaf and blind to their shenanigans. They are caught up in the excitement of the movement and aspirations to be like one of the big dogs.
Lydia wrote:
Glad I could help! Audible is now owned by Amazon so everything runs through your Amazon account. Membership starts at $14.95 per month and with that you get 1 credit per month (each credit is good for one audiobook or lecture series) plus you get 30% off other purchases. I’ve used it for years and was pleasantly surprised when they added The Great Courses library since I really liked their religion and history offerings but, like you, found then too pricey.
@ Dave A A:
A sad, but predictable, development. Darrin Patrick was Mark Driscoll’s right-hand man at Acts 29 (and is still VP of that organization). You don’t hang out with and support a potty-mouth preacher like Driscoll without some of his ministry failings rubbing off on you. Patrick and his Journey church (in St. Louis) became visible years ago with their beer-drinking Bible studies.
Patrick was on the list of speakers at the T4G pre-conference on “The Beauty of Complementarity” (unless he was removed due to this development). I wonder what his wife thinks of Complementarianism now?
New Calvinism, if allowed to run its course, will lead to antinomianism (we are already seeing the symptoms of that). When will the NC big dogs take a serious step back and look at what they have created by unleashing these young rebels on the church?!
Dave A A wrote:
Not good timing for Patrick, as he released his new book this week at T4G: “A Dude’s Guide to Marriage.”
Max wrote:
If that was the only title left, there are too many marriage books on the market.
@ Max:
I wonder if he spoke?
@ Stan:
Check this out
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/podcast/39662
Amazing! They make sure they only read approved history. Knowing Calvin is on par with knowing Jesus!
Lea wrote:
Another one to avoid is Driscoll’s porno book on “Real Marriage.”
@ Max:
So how many of these power-hungry purveyors of male superiority have to be exposed as degenerates before their followers realize that ‘complementarianism’ is a license to treat women as property and abuse them? Good God!
@ Stan:
Trueman was only too happy to step in and help “Big Eva” .
Lydia wrote:
My guess is that he bowed out. But considering that Mahaney stayed on the platform while the streets and cyberspace were full of protests, anything is possible with this bunch!
@ Max:
You know what is interesting? That the Journey had this timing right before T4G where he was to speak. My guess is it was much worse than what they publicized. And that could be anything from elder egos clashing over the last few years to worse. What is public or on stage is never what is really going on. Some are getting bolder since Driscoll. I think we might start seeing more of this. The entire Acts 29 movement was formed for big egos. The foundation is sand.
Lydia wrote:
I tend to think if one bad thing gets publicized, there are 4 or 5 that never got found out.
JeffT wrote:
Well JeffT … since these New Calvinists believe that “Men in churches are corks of testosterone bobbing in a sea of estrogen” and that “Churches need to understand and embrace sanctified testosterone” … it could take a while!
It is madness to release these preacher boys on the church!
Lydia wrote:
One of the things the Journey Board of Elders was concerned about was Patrick’s “history of building his identity through ministry and media platforms”. For a New Calvinist, T4G is a grand platform for building identity … so the Board probably wanted to remove that opportunity for him with the timing of their announcement.
Christianity Today just posted: http://www.christiantoday.com/article/megachurch.pastor.darrin.patrick.suspended.over.misconduct.and.historical.pattern.of.sin/83922.htm
@ Max:
Here’s the irony…Matt Chandler does exactly that and has a reputation of “building his identity through ministry and media platforms.” Plus many parts of Acts 29 are at T4G who probably clapped and supported C.J. Mahaney in doing the same thing. As they say in the US Army…”Whiskey tango Foxtrot!”
This kind of reminds me of how the Soviets or North Koreans would remove someone. I would love to know the specific details. I am actually thinking of writing about this next week.
Max wrote:
One of the worst sins of the neo-Cal seminaries! Instead of teaching service to others and humility (real humility, not the CJ variety), they fill the heads of these kids with a sense of their own superiority and totalitarian authority in the church.
JeffT wrote:
The young reformers are taught and sincerely believe that they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the true gospel to the church that the rest of us have lost! (true gospel to them = Calvinism) To be involved in such a movement would give you a sense of superiority … it’s a misplaced passion that is detouring our youth from legitimate ministry pursuits.
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
Several New Calvinist icons within SBC ranks are doing this (Chandler, Mohler, Patrick, etc.) … yet, SBC’s national leadership are not calling them into account for such behavior.
Max wrote:
It would serve them right if all the women in their churches up and left.
Of course, the men would still have some estrogen in themselves (as women have testosterone) but I’m sure most of them avoided biology since it’s of the devil or something, so they may not know that.
JeffT wrote:
That’s not a Bug, that’s THE Feature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNMVMNmrqJE
@ Max:
Their concern is a bit late. Patrick had a history of that when hired.
Max wrote:
Wipe the mouth and announce “I Have Not Sinned”.
Max wrote:
You mean the look-see into the ManaGAWD’s sexual fantasies?
@ Dave (Eagle):
I think we will see more of it. A clash of egos. After all, in most Acts 29 churches. Elders are paid pastoral positions.
Max wrote:
Reminds me of something I heard about the wild and wooly days of Public Access TV in Tucson, Arizona:
“The Dude Hour” — two Arizona surf bums in front of a camera saying “DUUUUUDE!” back and forth to each other.
“DUUUDE!”
“DUUUUUDE!”
“DUUUUUUUDE!”
“DUUUUUUUUUDE!”
(continue for a whole hour… Kicker is Arizona is completely landlocked, arid plateaus in the north and classic American desert in the south.)
Lea wrote:
I’ve said for years that this might prove to be the Achilles heel of the New Calvinist movement … when young women ensnared in this system rise up en masse, declare “Wait just a darn minute here!”, and drag their sorry boy friends/husbands out of the mess.
Lydia wrote:
“There Can Only Be One.”
— Highlander
Max wrote:
Interesting. Lying and manipulation and misuse of power were cited as sins they’ve been working with long-term. I’ll give them that. But I am willing to bet that had there not been some impropriety with women that they would not have had the courage to ask him to step down “just” because of things like lying and manipulation.
Has anyone ever seen a pastor be asked to step down for anything other than something involving sex, money, substance abuse, or a criminal act? Usually lying and misuse of power don’t make the cut, despite the fact that scripturally, each is clearly a disqualifying sin.
Max wrote:
“Just like Lysistrata, Except Christian!”
Remnant wrote:
Remnant, that is NOT something you want to say to someone who’s been on the receiving end of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and Christians for Nuclear War. (I didn’t stop having PTSD flashbacks along those lines until the late Eighties, over 15 years after initial exposure and immersion.)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ha. The wives should go lysistrata for real on them although I know they’d consider that a sin.
I’ve already left the SBC, even though I didn’t know about any of this background stuff, because when every program has 10 ‘pastor’s’, all male, and 10 ‘make up non-pastor title here’, all female, it seemed ridiculous.
Abi Miah wrote:
Not in the list of spiritual gifts the last time I looked. However, all of these are modus operandi in Calvinization of the Southern Baptist Convention by young rebels who gain pulpits by stealth and deception.
Lea wrote:
Just had a visual of a bunch of dry corks laying around on dry land, unable to move, unable to bob, unable to do anything cause their ocean of movement was gone.
I don’t think those corks realize how dependent they really are.
Max wrote:
“FOR THE REFORMATION, COMRADES!”
Mara wrote:
Lovely imagery! And so true.
Someone a while back mentioned a short story about this sort of thing by the lady who wrote anne of green gables.
Abi Miah wrote:
Harold: “So you’re lying to them just to get them to do what you want?”
Red: “Yep! I’m a born leader!”
— “The Red Green Show”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qza6DEmhhuQ (17:27) (happened to watch this episode just yesterday)
@ Stan:
Also note Todd and Trueman do not allow comments.
Max wrote:
Seriously? Jesus said nothing of these “solas.” They’re purely an invention of 16th century men. They may or may not be valid, but they’re not part of the good news preached by Jesus.
More seriously: Mahaney’s involvement in this conference is a disgrace of the first order. There is no way that Dever, Mohler and all the rest can plead ignorance. They have proven that they have no concern or regard for the hurting and abused.
As men and as Christians: Utter failures.
JeffT wrote:
Last night, I was over at Jesus Creed reading about Owen whats-his-name, and it occurred to me that comp-ism is nothing more than twisting the Bible to keep all the power for men and to keep women down and in a lower ranked position just because of their gender. Why are they so threatened by women? We’re just people! Only idiots or people with no real world experience would believe that women as a group are more easily deceived. We need someone with a psychology background to weigh in on the psychology of comp-ism.
mirele wrote:
If you said this to them, in the back of their minds, they’d say, “So?”
@ Abi Miah:
Just how do the elders go abour working on the pastors lying, manipulation, etc?
Wouldn’t they get it that pastors should not have a long time pattern of such things? Very strange. Did they hide these patterns from the pewsitters who were paying a liar and manipulator?
Church has become very strange, indeed.
mirele wrote:
Thank you. The early believers Jewish did not have sola scripture papyrus rolls in their home libraries or the NT and the Gentiles had no OT background.
Lydia wrote:
Wow, just wow. I thought you were kidding, but it says, “With us today is Dr. Scott Manetsch from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. His charge for us is to consider the importance of reading and âknowingâ John Calvin.”
Blergh.
JeffT wrote:
Yes!
@ mirele:
It blows my mind how normal that has become.
Max wrote:
I’m thinking of writing “A Dude’s Guide to Unbiblical Affairs”. You see, a Biblical affair is one which may result in a BABY, like David and Bathsheba. But now we have many Unbiblical ones, such as Swaggart and his prostitute, Haggard and his personal trainer, Phillips and his nanny, or Gothard and and his secretaries. NO BABY, NO PROBLEM. Reminds me of my old pastor. Pastor and Pastor’s Wife were really, really close with another couple in the church. Months before Pastor’s resignation, the eventual 2 divorces and the 2 new marriages to the friends, I was having lunch with Mom at the hospital where she worked. Pastor walked by with flowers for his best friend’s wife, who was having an unspecified medical procedure for which the church had not been asked to pray. He seemed a bit sheepish, as if he wished he’d not seen us. Mom and I, scoundrels that we were, surmised that best friend’s wife was there to abort Pastor’s child.
You know, I’ve gone through agnosticism and kind of back into faith, but I’m now at the point that all these theological formulations and fulminations at events like T4G are in some ways a real waste of time. (Also, reading Calvin’s Institutes when I was in law school, was also a waste of time. I should have spent my time more profitably on crocheting a blanket.) So where I’m at now is that in the end, I trust Jesus will be there with me. And I have a feeling a lot of people’s faith is like that. They trust Jesus. It’s not about having the right creed or right interpretation of the Bible–as Lydia mentioned, the earliest Christians didn’t have a Bible at their fingertips and the creeds were three centuries down the road. It’s about trusting Jesus. And compared to that, all the theological navel-gazing means little.
(That doesn’t mean I won’t point out to the comp crowd that their beloved reason for female subordination–the new dogma of the Eternal Subordination of the Son–is a semi-Arian heresy. Because it is true and they need to own up to it.)
Dave A A wrote:
Is it gossipy of me to wonder the details of this? I’m guessing sexting!
@ Lea:
Oh man, should have read that better. So maybe it’s just making out, Plus…whatever?
Abi Miah wrote:
On those grounds nearly every 9Marx pastor should be disqualified! Get busy elders.
Lydia wrote:
“There is no Christ, only CALVIN!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljCnqii8Qgw
(I’m getting a LOT of mileage out of that clip…)
Lea wrote:
Like Polishing-the-Shaft Schaapf and his underage Honey?
mirele wrote:
Because the creeds weren’t formulated until there was a need for them — an agreed-upon statement establishing formal precedent as to What We Believe to solve controversy.
Dave A A wrote:
Not an unreasonable surmise.
Did Pastor ever preach on Abortion? If so, was there any change in frequency (or introduction/cancellation of subject) around that time?
mirele wrote:
Didn’t somebody on this blog comment that as far as he could research, Calvin sounded like a psychopath? (A psychopath with POWER…)
Lydia wrote:
The twenty-something Pastorjugend Elders who owe their paycheck, position, and POWER to Pastor?
Lea wrote:
I had that very same thought– including the worry about gossipy-ness. Of course there’s room in the description for lots of actual physical contact, just so they avoided the baby-making stuff. Pastor Piper might need to update his “should a wife submit to abuse for a season” video to include, “What if my mega-celeb-pastor husband is having a non-adulterous threesome? Should I submit, just so long as he doesn’t ask me to sin?” I noticed the board virtually hid the real reason for sacking him after lots of spiritual-sounding words and just before the list of all the Driscollesque other sins they’d failed to help him overcome (and failed to “take to the church” apparently). Oh– and did Patrick yet confess just what his sins were?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
No– he was liberal, so that may not have been an issue. But the first odd thing was a large increase in preaching/teaching about caring for divorced people.
He’s on PAID leave, so the letter said.
@Headless … So very sorry. I wouldn’t ever want to hurt someone with a trigger. Now I know.
Dave A A wrote:
I wonder where his wife is and what she has to say/think about all this?
@ Remnant:
The pew sitters keep on paying — wonder when they will wise up? Maybe SBC NAMB still helps?
@ Lea:
It could be a Clinton tyoe definition of not having sex
@ mirele:
Bingo.
Stan wrote:
I just love the writing of the Great Christian Brains:
“One question to ask is whether this instantiation of a rejection of established leadership and political protocols might be indicative of a wider cultural phenomenon.”
No. That is not a question to ask.
Lydia wrote:
I thought of that too but 1. I didn’t want to be quite that explicit and 2. I think that ought to count as adultery even by stricter standards…but dates, sexting, etc? I think that falls within the scope of ‘not adultery, per se’.
That was a weird qualification though. I think they’re just asking for speculation.
I had never heard of Patrick until now. He and his inner circle are in serious damage control mode. I think it’s a toss-up as to how his wife responds. Some hang on because ot all the financial benefits (ex. Pitino’s wife). Some have already found someone else (ex. Tullian’s wife). My guess is that this “DUDE”has been unfaithful repeatedly (“history”). Most likely nobody will ever know the truth. He’ll be back.
It’s like the church published a letter that said ‘he was running around with two women other than his wife, but he didn’t actually hit that’. That is deeply weird.
@ Nancy2:
Next week I am going to write about this. I decided. I want to do a lesson in the way Stalin purged and removed Nikolai Yezhov and what happened at the Journey. The timing, the statement, its screaming issues. So a week from today expect to see this at my blog. I already have my post for tonight most done. And I want to write about Mahaney resuming preaching on Friday. And I have a guest post about atheism on Monday. đ
Almost funny.
@ Lea:
mirele wrote:
Seriously. And it’s not just the NeoCals. Calvary Chapel also teaches that the only way you can “know the Lord” is through the pages of Scripture. That is, on a teacher and teachee basis only.
Max wrote:
I pray this happens Max.
I hope it happens just like a scene in the 1960 film The Time Machine.
The scene in which one of the cowed Eloi overcomes fear and conditioning to fight back against the Morlocks.
Just think. A few days ago you were supposed to be in submission to Rev. Patrick and his bogus elders. They were the overseers of your precious soul. They could discipline you for stepping out of line. You were to give your hard-earned money to the organization so he could write books and travel to promote those books. No thanks.
Friend wrote:
Sounds like some of the really turgid buzzword bingo you got out of the old USSR.
Lea wrote:
The bloodiest train crash in Metrolink history (around 26 dead) was caused by an engineer running a red signal while sexting.
Remnant wrote:
I know. Just that I heard that Christianese phrase WAY too often back then, recited with a glib ignorance of what it means/implies. Kind of the “spoken and unspoken” in Mark Twain’s “The War Prayer”.
Too many End Time Prophecy types are all glib and shallow about what they say. The prophets called the coming of Olam-Ha-Ba “that Great and TERRIBLE Day of God”, not an Ultimate Reality Show with themselves watching from a catered box sear. If these glib types ever had a REAL vision of That Great and TERRIBLE Day (and everything it implied), they’d be curled up in the corner with a bottle of Jack Daniels, blubbering.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
How sad!
Muff Potter wrote:
Or this song from the American Civil War, “No More Auction Block for Me”:
“And oh, the one thing
That we did right
(Oh yes, oh yes)
Was the day
That we began to fight
(Oh yes, oh yes)
And it’s no more auction block for me,
Many thousand gone…”
— (“No More Auction Block for Me”, Sweet Honey in the Rock arrangement from the soundtrack of the Ken Burns miniseries)
Lydia wrote:
My guess is this: a good liar and manipulator is hard to pin down. It will be rare that he will be caught without having some form of plausible deniability. And people so desperately do NOT want to believe their pastor is a liar that they will have a very hard time with even multiple instances that are *likely* lies and manipulation but can’t be outright proven. They also mentioned his propensity to “sound” repentant and actually not be repentant. So they have one clear instance, then “repentance,” then some grayer looking episodes that he gets a pass for… and it’s not till hindsight after quite a bit of time has passed that they realize he never really repented. Remember: it does not appear in the best interest of the organization to “know” that the face man is a liar.
And the people most likely to have evidence are staff–whose jobs are under control of senior pastor. Often it’s “lower ranking” staff like secretaries who actually know. And they may really need their jobs. And who is going to believe them, anyway in a system like that?
I wish church boards weren’t so naive. People who are liars and manipulators don’t usually change. But it’s also really hard to consider destabilizing the organization by taking out the guy they have let everyone focus on as the “face” of the church. (That should make us all stop and think. Liturgical churches in which the focus is on communion/Eucharist have an advantage over those Protestants who think of the sermon as the main part of worship and the life of the church.)
@ Abi Miah:
I so agree about liturgical churches and the focus. I don’t even subscribe to sacraments as means of grace but I see the absolute necessity of taking the focus off a pulpit star wannabe and into Christ.
Another problem with dealing with a lying, manipulating pastor is the mantra so many have adopted: we are all sinners. As if the choices are sinless perfection or a lying manipulating pastor. It boggles.
What on earth ever happened to basic character, Integrity and honesty? If we cannot expect that to be the norm at church, for the most part, then why bother?
Steve wrote:
Exactly. It is all a big fraud.
Muff Potter wrote:
Ya wanna hear something amusing? The SBC had a huge split back in the 80’s over inerrancy.
Now they are arguing over the deterministic or free will God. So where is inerrancy?
@ Friend:
Haha.
@ Friend:
Yeh!! “Instantiation”–is that even a word? I haven’t looked it up yet. Maybe Trueblood is competing with Doug Wilson for Best Brain Mush sentence!!
@ Lydia:
“The SBC had a huge split back in the 80âs over inerrancy.”
++++++++++++
can you explain more? sounds like some valuable historical info, to help shed light on the present.
Abi Miah wrote:
I have seen one go to far in stepping on his board of elders. Could that have been something to do with this situation, I wonder.
@ elastigirl:
It has its own wiki page! :o)
Southern Baptist conservative resurgence
I would link but phone not cooperating.
elastigirl wrote:
Lydia is referring to the “Conservative Resurgence” within the Southern Baptist Convention. It was a rather nasty period that saw moderates/liberals exit the denomination in great numbers. While you would find a lot of information on this if you Googled “SBC Conservative Resurgence”, Baptist Press wrote a fairly good overview on this: http://www.bpnews.net/18486/25-years-ago-conservative-resurgence-got-its-start
Unfortunately, the non-Calvinist majority of Southern Baptists are now finding that some of the Conservative Resurgence leaders (e.g., Al Mohler) saw an opening for a Calvinist Resurgence within the denomination!
Mac wrote:
Although to be fair, the charge of oppression and burden probably fits MacArthur even better than Mahaney.
Nancy2 wrote:
Indirectly yes, apparently. But it is manifest to anyone with half a brain that they are together for money. The one thing they are NOT for in any way whatsoever is the gospel. It has nothing to do with anything they do and nothing they do results in the spreading of the gospel.
Lea wrote:
It’s been downhill for years….it just took folks this long to realize it…
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Wouldn’t that make them “T4$”?
Abi Miah wrote:
More like IMPOSSIBLE.
And a plausibly-deniable fallback position for his plausible deniability,
And a plausibly-deniable fallback position for his plausibly-deniable fallback position,
And a plausibly-deniable fallback position for his plausibly-deniable fallback position,
And a plausibly-deniable fallback position for his plausibly-deniable fallback position,
And a plausibly-deniable fallback position for his plausibly-deniable fallback position…
Twenty chess moves ahead of you, me, or anybody else.
With plausible deniability and an Angel of Light mask for each and every move.
That is why Liars and Manipulators are WINNERS and we are LOSERS.
Nancy2 wrote:
I’m sure his people will blame her soon.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes. This.
@ Max:
“…the âConservative Resurgenceâ within the Southern Baptist Convention. It was a rather nasty period that saw moderates/liberals exit the denomination in great numbers”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
thanks, Max. she mentions that it was largely over inerrancy. did that many departing Baptists really & truly not believe in biblical inerrancy? or was it more about differing interpretations of an inerrant bible?
how much was the issue biblical inerrancy and how much was it different interpretive conclusions?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes.
Abi Miah wrote:
So True! During Todd Pruitt’s tenure at Church of the Saviour, there were numerous staff “resignations” with non-disclosure clauses in the separation papers. However, his personal assistant won a successful lawsuit for wrongful termination.
If only the Board of Elders would have learned to listen to “lower staff”
Dee and Deb,
I’ve been checking out the T4G page on Facebook, reading some of the fawning comments and leaving a few not-so-fawning ones of my own. (One has been deleted so far.) In response to another commenter’s criticism of Mahaney, one of his fanboys said that any sin of his should be judged by God, not by “bandwagon bloggers”.
So, have you ever been called that before? Did I find a new one for your list? đ
Lydia wrote:
“There’s a sucker born every minute.”
— P.T.Barnum
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
The same God who before the creation of the world gave The Humble One a signed Get-Out-of-Hell-Free card?
Elizabeth wrote:
That is extremely unusual. Was there some sort of polity manual process he violated? Was the church sued or Todd?
@ elastigirl:
I don’t think many really thought through the inerrancy question. Even the Chicago statement is cognitive dissonance. Read article 10.
Inerrancy was a way to pit people against each other with an either/or position. Much like politics: If you are a conservative, you want children to starve. If you are a liberal you want them aborted. These sorts of either/or positions keep everyone from thinking and solving problems.
I think inerrancy was a rallying cry much like the Neo Cal’s ‘true Gospel’ slogan is today.
@ Lydia:
so it was all about creating a one-perspective, one-interpretation organization, and weeding out all other perspectives by accusing them of not having a high view of scripture / not holding to biblical inerrancy / being liberal (whichever accusation was most effective to weed out disunity)?
is this all patently obvious? these happenings and this world are very far-removed from my own. however, I’ve seen how influence trickles down and eventually impacts me in this silly religion of mine. that’s what prompted me to start reading here.
this ‘Christian coup’…. was there anything honorable behind it? a shred of some good motive? were they going after
“till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”?
this verse bothers me — it’s dangerous. the whole concept of God, & faith in God is so huge & multi-dimensional. any ‘unity’, other than something broad, would mean that people have turned off their critical thinking skills.
guess i’m again stating the obvious here.
Lydia wrote:
Oh give em’ time Lyds, 30 years down the road from now they’ll probably have a whole new hobby horse to ride… Provided of course they still exist in their virulent forms*.
*hopefully they won’t, hopefully TWW and others have planted the seeds of a kind of abolitionism in the minds of many.
elastigirl wrote:
In my opinion it was different interpretive conclusions:
…If you don’t agree with my conclusions, or so and so’s conclusions from the 16th century…well then…You don’t believe the Bible…
@ elastigirl:
One reason that verse does not bother me is because I believe our trust and faith should lead us to caring for the forgotten, the oppressed, those alone, those hurt, etc which includes seeking justice and alleviating suffering as much as possible. I honestly believe Christianity was to be more about that sort of perfection than perfect doctrines.
The CR was about power, IMO. The difference with then and now is that the CR took 30 years and it happened with votes. Yes with political maneuving on both sides.
SBTS was a hold out with all kinds working there until they hired Mohler in 1994 and he cleaned house.. That is one reason it did not really affect churches here as much, until later.
@ Muff Potter:
I know. Still amused because the rally cry for both Cals and non Cal’s was inerrancy! Now they argue over whether God is deterministic or free will. Huh? What happened to inerrancy? You can’t have unity on inerrancy with 2 different God’s.
http://sbcvoices.com/grace-sexual-predation-and-dealing-with-the-past/
What is wrong with this post? (Remember, everyone is thinking CJ but not mentioning him over at Voices except Louis on the other thread. See, if you don’t mention CJ, you never have to deal with it. You lump him into a big bowl and mix)
Darlene wrote:
I have one!
T4$… Together for Dollars
Lydia wrote:
It certainly quickly became that, but some (a lot? many?) churches got to be a mess during the cultural revolution in this country. My children were little during the seventies and I could not find an SBC church in our little town which actually was preaching or teaching anything with any substance to it at all; nothing that I wanted my children to think was christianity. Something needed to happen, but it would have been better if it had been revival instead of a surge of pseudo fundamentalism. Even so I chose actual fundamentalism FWB style for a while over the diluted dishwater that they were serving for soup over at SBC local. Not to be too delicate about it! FWIW, FWB and IFB are not singing off the same page of the hymnbook I might add, and should not be lumped together is one’s thinking. There are lots of kinds of baptists.
okrapod wrote:
Tony Campolo’s an American Baptist. I don’t know much about them, but I think they lean more left or left-of-center than the Southen Baptists (who have fallen off the cliff on the right). The Baptist church near where I grew up is a Cooperative Baptist and openly says that they support women in church leadership.
@ okrapod:
From what I can tell, a lot of it started when some prof wrote a book about Genesis not being literal in the 1960s. Which is sort of amusing now.
I Think both the CBF and the SBC are guilty of pushing politics. I would like some of the CBF churches here but they are worse than local SBC when it comes to inviting politicians to speak. I don’t need the church to tell me how to vote or think on certain issues.
Lydia wrote:
Amen to that.
 __
“Without God’s ‘Election’ There Can Be No Salvation?”Â
John Calvin taught that some are predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction.Â
hmmm…
(…If you are not of the ‘Elect’, the five solas, the backbone of the Reformation, do not apply to you?
huh?
John Calvin says that without God’s ‘election’ there is no salvation?
yep.
God so loved the ‘elect’…?
Krunch !
John Calvin says: “The covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception.Â
This diversity displays the unsearchable depth of ‘the divine judgment’, and is without doubt subordinate to Godâs purpose of ‘eternal election’.Â
But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, when just views are not entertained concerning election and predestination.Â
To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction.Â
How ceaselessly they entangle themselves will appear as we proceed.Â
We may add, that in the very obscurity which deters them, we may see not only the utility of this doctrine, but also its most pleasant fruits.Â
We shall never feel persuaded as we ought that our salvation flows from the free mercy of God as its fountain, until we are made acquainted with his ‘eternal election’, ‘the grace of God’ being illustrated by the contrastâviz. that he does not adopt all promiscuously to the ‘hope of salvation’, but gives to some what he ‘denies’ to others.Â
It is plain how greatly ignorance of this principle detracts from ‘the glory of God’, and impairs ‘true humility’.Â
But though thus necessary to be known, Paul declares that it cannot be known unless God, throwing works entirely out of view, ‘elect’ those whom he has ‘predestined’.Â
His words are,Â
âEven so then at this present time also, there is a remnant according to ‘the election of grace’.Â
And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work,â (Rom. 11:6).Â
If to make it appear that our salvation flows entirely from the good mercy of God, we must be carried back to the origin of ‘election’, then those who would extinguish it, wickedly do as much as in them lies to obscure what they ought most loudly to extol, and pluck up ‘humility’ by the very roots.Â
Paul clearly declares that it is only when the salvation of a remnant is ascribed to ‘gratuitous election’, we arrive at the knowledge that God saves whom he wills of his mere good pleasure, and does not pay a debt, a debt which never can be due…” [1]
__
[1] ICR ch. 21; Â http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.xxii.html
—
@ Lydia:
perhaps this is it: ‘The Message of Genesis’, by Ralph Elliott. Mr. Elliot talks about his book (published in 1961) and his resulting experiences below — it was very interesting.
https://books.google.com/books?id=c7A0WVhEnS8C&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=baptist+professor+book+genesis+not+literal+1960s&source=bl&ots=fwnBKMyVl7&sig=-Or1OAAmy-u2YdBz5NHBPSMOV8g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLvN6xsZHMAhUL0mMKHcYhCVEQ6AEIOTAE#v=onepage&q=baptist%20professor%20book%20genesis%20not%20literal%201960s&f=false
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I had the same hope, my friend…..
Sopwith wrote:
Putting him in VERY appropriate company…..
Patriciamc wrote:
“Everybody needs somebody to look down on; someone to feel better than, at any time they please”–Kris Kristofferson.
zooey111 wrote:
“If Ah can’ be better than a n*gg*r, who do Ah got to be better than?”
— attr to trailer-trash Ku Kluxer of the Fifties; his white skin was all that kept him off the bottom of the heap and nobody is nastier about making sure the bottom STAYS the bottom than the second-from-the-bottom.