9Marx Experiencing Pushback – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm (Update)

"I appreciate Mark Dever’s ministry in general and have no desire to attack him or the ministry he is connected with. However, I believe this 9Marks-promoted teaching on church discipline is dangerous and needs to be addressed. I am, therefore, raising the alarm."

When Church Discipline Is Sin – Jason Harris

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=4031&picture=holy-bibleHoly Bible

Together for the Gospel 2016 is fast approaching, and the website indicates the event is sold out.  Some of the breakout sessions caught our eye, specifically:  Creating a Culture of Joy in Your Church (C.J. Mahaney), Sovereign Grace Churches (Mark Prater and Ian McConnell), and Don't be a 9Marxist! Using Church Authority to Help, Not Hurt (Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman).  After everything that has been revealed regarding Mahaney, the church he co-founded (Covenant Life Church) and his church planting network (Sovereign Grace Ministries), we find it hard to believe that there hasn't been any pushback regarding the first two breakout sessions.

However, it does appear that there has been great concern about Dever and Leeman's breakout session – Don't be a 9Marxist!  No matter how Dever and Leeman try to spin it, there are serious problems with the implementation of one of the 'marks'.  We are grateful that Todd Wilhelm continues to address problems that result from the implementation of the seventh mark – Discipline – and we are want to share his recent post with our readers (see below).

Update 3/17: We had an occasion of crossed wires and ths post is a partial repeat of the post on Monday. To make up for this, we will post court documents proving Shaun's son, Billy, was molested later this afternoon.


9Marx Experiencing Pushback link

Post By:  Todd Wilhelm

https://thouarttheman.org/2016/03/14/3837/

It appears that the cries of the rock-throwing peasants are being heard by the royalty inside the safe haven of Capitol Hill Baptist Church.  You will recall that Mark Dever, Senior Pastor of CHBC, and his lieutenant, Jonathan Leeman, run a para-church organization called 9Marks.  Billed as an organization that “exists to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for displaying God’s glory to the nations through healthy churches,” they trumpet 9 items that a healthy church must be doing to display “God’s glory.”  I could list all nine for you, but will refrain from doing so. It is my observation that you really only need to be familiar with two of the nine marks,  the other seven are mainly window dressing. I am sure the dynamic duo, pictured below, would strongly disagree with me, but they can make their case at their breakout session of the T4G conference.

What are the 2Marks? Membership and discipline, discipline and more discipline.  Did I mention discipline?  Membership is important only because you can’t very easily discipline a non-member.  (Although I wouldn’t put it past Leeman to turn some new ground by writing a book on that subject.)

Tired of the seemingly endless parade of mangled people resulting from the application of Dever and Leeman’s ceaseless teaching on discipline (may I refer to the tandem as “Deeman” to save keystrokes?), we rock-throwing peasants have tagged their organization with the moniker of “9Marx.” Much to the chagrin of Deeman, the moniker has caught on and there seems to be a groundswell among the proletariat of opposition to the heavy-handed application of discipline by Deeman’s disciples.

Realizing their fiefdom is in danger of being toppled, or, more likely, facing a dwindling revenue stream, Deeman has cleverly decided to diffuse the uprising by good-naturedly poking fun at themselves.  They will be conducting a breakout session utilizing the 9Marx moniker. Watch the short video below to understand what I am talking about. (I also included an audio only file below the video.) Please go to Todd's post to hear this audio clip.

http://t4g.org/speakers/

Dever admits that he and Leeman may be numbered among the “stupid pastors” who unwisely implement discipline, drawing lines in the wrong places, etc. (This may be as close to an admission of guilt for Dever allowing CJ Mahaney to flee to CHBC to escape discipline at Covenant Life Church, Mahaney’s home church that we will ever see.) Dever’s allowing Mahaney to flee to his church was to totally undermine everything he teaches on discipline, but, as the Wartburg Watch stated: “Mark Dever continues to support CJ Mahaney who is the best example of failed church discipline that exists. That is the problem. You see, church discipline is only for the little people.”

Two things bother me in this video.  First is Dever’s attempt to blame most discipline problems on young, overly zealous, unwise 25-year-old pastors.  While I have no doubt that there are many young pastors who are wreaking havoc in their churches by implementing Deeman’s model of church discipline, there have been numerous cases of older, experienced pastors also misapplying church discipline.   Chief among these is Matt Chandler. His church was about to discipline a woman who returned from the mission field and sought an annulment of her marriage because she discovered her husband was a pedophile. Facing a certain lawsuit, Chandler wised up and apologized to the woman.   More recently we have seen the horrible handling by pastor Ken Ramey of a child rape case.   Need I mention CJ Mahaney or Mark Driscoll?  I also have a good friend who was excommunicated from my former church, UCCD, in what can only be classified as a total miscarriage of justice.  Fortunately for UCCD, my friend is much more gracious than the pastor and asked me not to go public with his story. The pastor of UCCD? John Folmar, a man who was mentored by Mark Dever and served as an assistant pastor at CHBC for several years.

The second thing that bothered me was Leeman’s flippant comment at the end “that we are all in a learning process of how to do these things well.”  Really?  How many more lives must you and your disciples ruin in your learning process, Mr. Leeman?  I pray that on behalf of those on the receiving end of your disciplinary process that you quickly come to the realization that your process doesn’t work.

Here is a quote from a great article.  I have linked to it at the bottom of the quote.  If you care to go to the article and read the comments you will see that Mr. Leeman replied to Jason Harris’ charges.

“When it comes to church discipline, where is the line between loving confrontation and abusive harassment?

… in recent years, I have noted a trend which I believe is dangerous both in the damage it does to individuals and in the damage it will do to the church as the state steps in to protect individuals from further damage.

One author promotes abusive discipline in this way:

“If someone tries to resign mid-process in order to “escape discipline,” should the church just let them go? Of course not. That would defeat the whole point of church discipline. Instead, the church must retain the right to refuse someone’s resignation and send them out another way—through excommunication.”

A second author says that one of the mistakes churches make in practicing church discipline is that “they fail to teach new members as they enter the church about the possibility of church discipline, and that preemptive resignations don’t work.” In other words, once you’re a member, you cannot resign church membership without the permission of the church/pastor.

Of course we might not be too surprised to find such thinking in the extreme backwaters of Fundamentalism, but neither of the above comments come from Fundamentalism. Rather, both were published by 9Marks, a ministry connected with Mark Dever who is a mainstream conservative evangelical and has been a catalyst in the resurgence of the practice of church discipline. A closer look at Dever reveals that the constitution of the church he pastors contains the following statement: (see top of page 4)

“The church shall have authority to refuse a member’s voluntary resignation or transfer of membership to another church, either for the purpose of proceeding with a process of church discipline, or for any other biblical reason.”

Raising the alarm

I appreciate Mark Dever’s ministry in general and have no desire to attack him or the ministry he is connected with. However, I believe this 9Marks-promoted teaching on church discipline is dangerous and needs to be addressed. I am, therefore, raising the alarm. Brothers, we must not mar the purity of Christ’s church either by refusing to exercise church discipline or by exercising it abusively. Doing so will damage individual believers, churches, and the reputation of Jesus Christ in the eyes of the world.”
-Jason Harris, “When Church Discipline is Sin”
In Focus, 26 March 2013

In the short video clip below, Wayne Jacobsen discusses a better alternative to the 9Marks way.  You can see the entire video here.

“When committed Christians regularly see other members’ salvation questioned when they leave their church, it is very difficult for them to consider leaving – God, salvation, and the group seem to be synonymous.
-Mary Alice Chrnalogar, ”Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse”


Deb here… please, please take the time to read Jason Harris' excellent post “When Church Discipline is Sin”. It was published almost three years ago and is perhaps more relevant today since we have in recent days become even more aware of the rotten fruit in some churches that implement Dever's 9Marks.  Once you have read the post, scroll through the comments and be sure to read the exchange between Jonathan Leeman and Jason Harris.  It is extremely eye-opening!

Comments

9Marx Experiencing Pushback – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm (Update) — 141 Comments

  1. ” (may I refer to the tandem as “Deeman” to save keystrokes?)”
    Todd, WADR to you, I think I prefer to refer to the duo as DeveL.

  2. I highly recommend folks read Leemans bizarre comment in the link provided by Todd. I have not seen such tortured illogical illustrations in my life. Leeman needs a real job in the real world

  3. I find it terrible that Dever and Leeman think that, by making fun of themselves, that will somehow negate all the damage done by their style of discipline.

  4. The comment section is indeed eye-opening. Jason Harris’ response to Leeman is priceless. But it’s as though Leeman ain’t gonna budge; instead he be like: Talk to the hand cuz the face ain’t listening.

  5. Thanks for adding that excellent Jason Harris article. I noticed that Jonathan Leeman commented on it as well.

    I just added my story of excommunication and shunning from my 9Marxist church, along with the other dear saints I saw subjected to such authoritarian abuse.

  6. Let's for instance something. If a family is mistreated by another family in the church repeatedly and when you confront them about it come back with "I have no idea what you're talking about" over the course of a year and when you get sick of the rotten treatment and tell them that since they insist on treating you in this manner and making excuses or flat out denying that it even happened you tell them to stay away from your family they call the pastor to meet about the situation.

    You show up to meet with the pastors, tell them everything that has transpired over the last year and their response is "You need to see the sin in your life." Let's all get together and reconcile when you're ready but it has to be done in the next few days. You show up to that meeting and nothing has changed, same lies, same excuses, same denying this, that or the other happened. You call them liars and you are reprimanded for doing it. After all is said and done you are now the problem, because you haven't acknowledged the sin in your life but you actually expect them to stop doing what they've been doing. They are "repentant" but haven't actually said we did x, y, or z and we're sorry.

    Since you are not inclined to allow them around your family and are done listening to them repeat the same lies, etc you are definitely the problem not them. And definitely don't tell the pastors you have no authority to tell me who I will or will not allow to be around my family. When you directly challenge them, you definitely have crossed the line and are in some serious sin and need to repent and reconcile with them because if you don't you aren't honoring the membership covenant and aren't a person of integrity. Things like that just tick me off…. But I digress….

  7. Almost forgot being told that you need to trust the “process” even though you say they are lying and your response is meeting to say you did X, no we didn’t, yes you did, nope, yes, no sorry didn’t happen, is a waste of my time. Since they are willing to meet and continue the same thing and you’re not willing to listen to them continue, you are definitely the problem.

  8. “Then this message came to me from the Lord: “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds, the leaders of Israel. Give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: What sorrow awaits you shepherds who feed yourselves instead of your flocks. Shouldn’t shepherds feed their sheep? You drink the milk, wear the wool, and butcher the best animals, but you let your flocks starve. You have not taken care of the weak. You have not tended the sick or bound up the injured. You have not gone looking for those who have wandered away and are lost. Instead, you have ruled them with harshness and cruelty. So my sheep have been scattered without a shepherd, and they are easy prey for any wild animal. They have wandered through all the mountains and all the hills, across the face of the earth, yet no one has gone to search for them.”
    -Ezekiel34:1-7, NLT

  9. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    I have mapped for a while that much of xty is repeating the problems/evil deeds we see in the OT. The Jews were to also be “the light of the world” and many, not all, failed. Same with Xty. It freaks me out.

  10. These two videos below are where I am headed. 9Marx pastor, John Folmar excommunicated my friend because he had similar sentiments. He resigned from UCCD, telling them he was going to be attending a home church.

    The videos do not advocate for home churches, in fact, Jacobsen said they generally have their own set of problems, but you can bet I am a heretic in the eyes of the 9Marx crowd.

    https://vimeo.com/139705448

    https://vimeo.com/142288083

  11.   __

    “Is the 9marks Wolfpak  (still) bearing nefarioous religious fruit?”

    hmmm…

    Is the problem with9 Marks greater than a simple issue of ‘church discipline’ ™ ?

    huh?

    Q. What must (their) healthy ‘9 Marks churches’ ™ be doing to display “God’s glory”?

    Ans1: Selling Calivinism (i.e. Augustinian knosticism) of course!

    Ans2: Resisting anyone who disagrees with them; supporting (individuals like C.J. Mahaney) i.e. those who do.

    What?

    Q. Are the devout and devoted people of Jesus Christ really that stupid?

    This 9Marks-promoted root teaching on Calvinism i.e. Augustinian Knosticism is  dangerous and needs to be addressed?

    You decide.

    (keep your eye on da ball… (Jesus Christ)

    ATB

    Sopy

  12. @ George:
    This is my other issue with these guys (and in abuse cases as well) who are these pastors to think they get to decide when someone has repented rather than the person they have wronged??? What rank arrogance.

  13. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    “Then this message came to me from the Lord: “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds, the leaders of Israel. Give them this message from the Sovereign Lord: What sorrow awaits you shepherds who feed yourselves instead of your flocks.

    My favorite part of this chapter comes a few verses later:

    10’Thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them.”‘”

    15″ I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest,” declares the Lord GOD.”

    GOD WILL DEMAND HIS SHEEP FROM THEM.

    GOD WILL FEED HIS FLOCK.

    GOD WILL LEAD THEM TO REST.

    I wonder if they have any place for that in their ecclesiology?

    I don’t think I have *ever* heard a teaching or a sermon from a pulpit on Ezekiel 34. Has anyone else?

  14. @ George:
    Stories like this get me so mad I could spit. My guess is that something like this happened to you or someone close to you. If so, I am so sorry. The old “what is your sin in this matter” is the oldest Calvinista trick in the book. This is why those guys love to talk about sin so much. They can always defect it back onto you.

  15. George wrote:

    you are definitely the problem.

    Have you read the book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse?” You are the problem is a chapter in the book.

  16. Lydia wrote:

    I have mapped for a while that much of xty is repeating the problems/evil deeds we see in the OT.

    It is the way of humans – that’s why we see the same control structures established over and over again.

    Doesn’t matter the time or age.

    Doesn’t matter the country.

    Doesn’t matter the race.

    Doesn’t matter the religion.

    There will always be men seeking to lord it over men.

    Jesus’ teachings on this, if obeyed, would nip that in the bud and the Body of Christ would actually BE something *different* in this world.

    Luke 22:25 “Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors.”

    Instead men in the church follow the ways of the world and seek to overlord others.

    Lording over the Body while thinking themselves as our *benefactors*.

    And isn’t that how they view themselves?

    Interestingly enough, the word translated as benefactor was also actually a *title*. (Paging A. Amos Love) 😉

    It’s all for us and our good, you see?

  17. http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/sermon/class-3-why-join-a-church/
    This is a link to a CHBC manuscript document for a membership class, written by Jamie Dunlop, associate pastor. About 2/3 of the way down, it states:
    “Obey Your Leaders………
    For church members: are you to obey every Christian leader who comes along? No; you’re to obey the leaders of your own church. The ones who you’ve signed up to submit to.”

    Whaddah big red flag!

  18. dee wrote:

    The old “what is your sin in this matter” is the oldest Calvinista trick in the book. This is why those guys love to talk about sin so much. They can always defect it back onto you.

    I guess I’ve seen every John Wayne Western movie there is, at least 3 times. These people (9 Marx, Acts/9, etc.) ……. the way they treat some members always make me think of a scene in “The Cowboys”. In one scene in the movie, the chuck wagon cook has been caught by rustlers. The cook has a noose around his neck and is about to be hanged. In his final “prayer”, he “prays”, “……. Above all, forgive me for the men I’ve killed, and for those that I am about to!”
    I see these church leaders as the rustlers, and the lowly members as the cook. Maybe I’m kinda twisted, but if I were the church member (with the noose around my neck) being asked, “What is your sin….?”, I might just paraphrase the movie line and say, “Forgive me for the sins that I have committed, and for those that I am about to!”
    I would write a mathematical equation to demonstrate how angry these people make me, but my keypad doesn’t have an infinity symbol.

  19. Ok I have got to say something about the first video clip. First these two come across as arogant! To say young pastors lack wisdom(equate them as stupid because they
    lack wisdom )they have a lot of energy and therefore they are failing at implementing church discipline hmmm. Well then I would say those who created 9 marks are reckless and irresponsible to produce such a book in selling selling it and teach this crap without a warning label to young pastors! ” proceed with caution this book attracks young pastors who lack wisdom who do not possess the spiritual maturity to implement church discipline “! I also find it offensive that these two throw in buzz words and use corporate language to say this is a learning process! !!! Sorry but the church body are not your guinea pigs to practice on! Especially when you deal with child sex abuse, spiritual abuse, spousal abuse and so forth!!! The fact that these two “Fools” even make light of it is “offensive “!!!! Anyone listening to what these two say ” Wake Up” they are giving you a heads up on who they really are! Yes the peasants are fighting back but we have a Savior who is standing front and center.

  20. Many of these leaders have seared consciences and quite naturally the churches and parachurch organizations and networks they establish are a means of providing them narcissistic supply. They have nothing to do with the mutual submission demanded in the New Testament, the command that leaders never lord it over another, never give themselves titles, never do anything other than do the thankless stuff, the least and the last. They demand one-way submission to them, they use it to sadistically lord it over followers, they give themselves titles and the best seats at the T4G conference, they make others do the thankless stuff, they consider themselves the first and the greatest. Didn’t Jesus tell us such abusive people would rise up, would draw people to themselves because people would no longer listen to what’s sound and truthful? Why do we keep trying to assume they mean well, but just are on the wrong track? Didn’t Jesus say we’d know them by their fruits?

    The essential problem is trying to reason with wolves who have set up systems that provide fresh meat for wolves.

  21. Law Prof wrote:

    Many of these leaders have seared consciences and quite naturally the churches and parachurch organizations and networks they establish are a means of providing them narcissistic supply.

    “Conscience seared with a red-hot iron” is just a 2000-year-old idiom for NPD Sociopath. No need to get all woo-woo Spiritual(TM) about it — unless that provides an Angel of Light mask for the NPD Sociopath Pastor.

  22. Law Prof wrote:

    The essential problem is trying to reason with wolves who have set up systems that provide fresh meat for wolves.

    It is impossible to reason with a sociopath. They will be so reasonable, so polite, so understanding — as long as you never ever violate their Prime Directive: “I. WIN. YOU. LOSE. ALWAYS.”

  23. Now here is where I have garnered true wisdom from those who have discernment. Thank you to Headless Unicorn guy, lawprof, and others who speak the truth!@ Nancy2:
    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    The essential problem is trying to reason with wolves who have set up systems that provide fresh meat for wolves.

    It is impossible to reason with a sociopath. They will be so reasonable, so polite, so understanding — as long as you never ever violate their Prime Directive: “I. WIN. YOU. LOSE. ALWAYS.”

  24. Quoting Leeman:

    “The institutional church instituted by Jesus has an authority you and I as individual believers do not have (see Matt. 16 and 18). This sounds shocking to contemporary Western ears, but Christians have understood it for 2000 years.”

    “Both Jones and Powell are correct to refer to the keys of the kingdom mentioned in Matthew 16 and 18 as the decisive passages for the topic of church government. And both understand that the question of who holds the keys is what divides presbyterians and congregationalists.

    As a congregationalist, I believe that the apostles held the keys, that local churches hold the keys, and that the elders of a church ordinarily direct the church in its use of the keys.”

    ”The theological champions at the Westminster Assembly spent several days debating who in the post-apostolic age holds the keys that Jesus originally gave to Peter (Matt. 16:19), since they understood that the keys represent, at the very least, the power of excommunication. And the power of excommunication is the highest authority in a church, just as the power of the sword is the highest authority in a nation.”

    Leeman really pushes Matthew 16 as a main support, foundation and substantiation of his beliefs on church authority.

    Here is one of the verses he is referencing, Jesus is speaking to Peter in response to Peter’s confession of Who Jesus is:

    ”I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

    From the above utterance Leeman tells us that from this verse:

    The institutional church was instituted by Jesus.

    This institutional church has an authority that individual believers do not have.

    This is a decisive passage for the topic of church government.

    The ultimate holder of these keys and this authority are the elders of a church.

    This verse gives the elders of a church at minimum the power of excommunication.

    That’s a lot of stuff to unpack from those ~30 words. Did Jesus ever speak about keys?

    Luke 11:52 – “Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

    Peter was singled out first with the gift of these keys, before the other apostles in this verse from Matthew 16.

    Is there any significance to that, did Peter use these keys in ways unique to the other apostles?

    Why, yes, he did. The first key was used the day of Pentecost as described in Acts 2:

    ” Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven… But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words…”

    And he proceeded to present the Gospel to these Jews who had come to Jerusalem from multiple countries.

    Peter used a key that day to open the door to the Kingdom of Heaven to 3000 of those Jews. But ONLY to the Jews – Persian Jews, Hellenic Jews, Parthian Jews, Asian Jews, Libyan Jews, Egyptian Jews, and proselyte Jews – all Jews.

    No one was sharing the Gospel with Gentiles. The apostles hadn’t quite cottoned to the idea that God was interested in the Gentiles as well.

    So, 8 chapters later in Acts God sends Peter a vision about eating unclean food as well as some men from Cornelius the Gentile, who also had a vision telling him to send those men to Peter.

    Peter goes to see Cornelius and lets him know right from the start how Jews viewed Gentiles:

    “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.”

    “Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. “The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)–…”

    Peter then goes on the share the Gospel with Cornelius, but before he can even get through his speech the Holy Spirit fell on all who were listening.

    And thus that other key was used to open the Kingdom of Heaven to the Gentiles.

    Men who seek power view Matt 16:9 as a foundation for the power they seek.

    People who seek God view Matt 16:9 as a promise soon fulfilled, that for the Jews and Gentiles who seek God, the doors to the Kingdom were about to be thrown wide open.

  25. All my former students post on Facebook or other social media is ” discipline, discipline” yet, they are the most Un-disciplined bunch I have ever seen.

  26. K.D. wrote:

    All my former students post on Facebook or other social media is ” discipline, discipline” yet, they are the most Un-disciplined bunch I have ever seen.

    I bet it is usually paired with “authority”.

    I would also hazard a guess that they believe they are the ones with the authority to discipline… others, of course.

    Well, others that are beneath them in status.

    It is seldom if ever that they attempt to exert discipline upon those they consider their equals.

  27. Excellent post.

    I also read the post “When Church Discipline is Sin.”

    Here are my comments about the 9 Marks position advocated by Leeman.

    1. Matthew 18 does not involve the sin of individual Christians. Matthew 18 involves wrongs done by one Christian to another. Those situations call out for resolution by the church, to protect the wronged party, and to attempt resolution. Sinful behavior does not involve the entire church in any practical way. If Matthew 18 is applied to all sinful behavior (not as the actual text says), the church becomes a star chamber on how people are behaving.

    2. The jurisdiction of the State, a State Medical Board, or an Athletic Commission is different from the authority of the local church. The blog author nails that, I believe. Leeman’s argument on this point is consistent with his argument elsewhere. He uses analogies in a sloppy way, and draws strong conclusions from weak support. Much of his teaching in this area is an analogy based on an inference, based on an inference etc.

    3. The scope of the authority of the local church is a big area of disagreement, though it is not discussed at length. As previously posted, Leeman’s view of local church authority is quite expansive.

    4. Related to authority, a church has declarative authority to declare what Jesus said. But a church cannot see into the soul or heart of the individual, and thus, cannot declare whether certain persons belong to the kingdom or not. That belongs only to God. A church can make a declaration about another person’s confession – i.e., that confession is or is not consistent with NT teaching. But to determine the status of someone’s soul based on whether that person’s behavior is sufficiently representative of good Christian character is out of bounds.

    5. Recognizing (notice I did not say “allowing”) that people have the right to leave does not deprive the church of a tool that it has with regard to people in the congregation.

  28. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It is impossible to reason with a sociopath. They will be so reasonable, so polite, so understanding — as long as you never ever violate their Prime Directive: “I. WIN. YOU. LOSE. ALWAYS.”

    One of my top favorite portions of Scripture in John 9 is about the blind man that Jesus healed.

    Every time I read the escalating interaction between the formerly blind nobody-man and the synagogue authorities, it reads like a comedy sketch to me.

    So, Jesus and the disciples come upon a blind man who is begging and the disciples have a question:

    Disciples: “”who sinned – this man or his parents? “

    Jesus: “Neither sinned.” (and then He proceeds to spits on mud and applies the paste to the blind man’s eyes and told him to go wash in a pool.)

    So, blind guy goes and does so and he can see, but Jesus didn’t go with him to the pool. Blind guy is now wandering around LOOKING at stuff, while having no idea what the person who healed him looks like and then the sketch starts in my head:

    Folks in crowd: “Isn’t that the blind man?”

    Other folks in crowd: “Nah, that’s not him it’s just someone that looks like him.”

    Former blind guy: “No, that’s IS me, I AM the blind man!”

    Folks in crowd: “How did this happen”?

    Former blind guy: “Some guy they call Jesus put mud on my eyes, told me to go wash it off, I did and now I can see!”

    So, the folks hauled his butt off to the synagogue leaders who also wanted to know just what had happened.

    Synagogue leaders: “Just exactly what happened?”

    Former blind guy: “Some guy they call Jesus put mud on my eyes, told me to go wash it off, I did and now I can see!”

    Synagogue leaders: “Well that man is NOT from God, because he doesn’t keep the Sabbath!”

    Other synagogue leaders: “How could a sinner have performed such a sign?”

    So now the leadership was divided. Well, divided leadership wasn’t good, so they turned their focus back on former blind man –

    Synagogue leaders: “What do YOU have to say about this guy – it’s YOU he healed!”

    (We recognize this don’t we? Leadership doesn’t want to deal with a possible issue that might divide them – SO, they turn a laser-like focus back on the miserable cretin who brought this divisive issue in the first place. IOW, ignore the message, shoot the messenger.)

    Former blind guy: “Uh, he’s a prophet.”

    Well, the leaders aren’t liking where this is going and they still don’t believe that he used to be blind, so they send for former blind guy’s parents.

    Synagogue leaders: “Is that YOUR son? Is he the one you SAY was born blind? How did this happen?”

    Now the parents have already heard that the synagogue leaders are going to excommunicate anyone who credits Jesus as being the Messiah. So, not wanting THAT to happen to them they start the following tap-dance.

    Former blind guy’s parents: “Well, we know that he is our son and we know that he was born blind – but he is a big boy now, so you can just ask HIM what happened!”

    So, the synagogue leaders call the former blind-guy back in for *another* meeting and they make a simple request –

    Synagogue leaders: “Just give glory to God and tell the truth, ‘cause we know this Jesus guy is a sinner!”

    Former blind guy: “Well, I don’t know if he is a sinner, all I know is that I used to be blind and now I can see!”

    Synagogue leaders: “Just what did he do and how did he do it?!!!”

    Former blind guy: “ I already told you and you didn’t listen then, why do you want to hear it again – do you want to become his disciple TOO? (hee hee!)

    Synagogue leaders: (After casting a few insults to former blind guy) “YOU are this guy’s disciple – WE are disciples of Moses ‘cause we know that God spoke to Moses – but this other guy? We don’t even know WHERE HE COMES FROM!”

    Former blind guy: (Starts getting a little testy and uppity…) “Well then, that’s incredible! You don’t know where he comes from – but HE OPENED my eyes! We know God isn’t going to listen to sinners – He listens to the godly person who does His will. Ain’t nobody ever heard of a born-blind man getting his eyes opened – if this guy wasn’t from God, he couldn’t do nothing.”

    Synagogue leaders: (I’m seeing some mouth frothing by this point) “YOU were steeped in sin at birth! How dare YOU lecture US!”

    And they excommunicated him.

  29. @ dee:
    It’s not as bad as sex abuse or being excommunicated before being divorced but it’s the SGM playbook to a T. I shortened it considerably to leave out all the things said or done to me and the rest if my family. Reading through these blogs and comments, has been eye opening. I wish I read this stuff before we joined. We talk to any one who is not a SGM zombie and it takes about 10 seconds before they say “What? Are you serious?” Yes, yes we are. We have told very few people our story but the reaction is the same. Friend of ours that still attends the church had to move due to flooding. Volunteer to help, she mentioned it to the pastor. He didn’t come out and say no he’s not welcome, but his reaction and words made it clear I wasn’t wanted there, reguadless of the circumstances. She still talks to us and comes over and is a great friend.

  30. Sigh….
    If only I’d taken out a copyright on the term “9 Marxist” back when I coined it, I could soon be raking in the ol’ royalties from T$G!

  31. @ Lea:
    We were told that we couldn’t see their hearts so we weren’t allowed to determine if they were truly repentant. Um, if I say these are things you have been doing and you say oh, I’m sorry and actually stop doing x, y, or z, it’s a pretty good indication you’ve changed and are sorry. If what you get is more if the same, yeah, I’m pretty sure you’re not.

  32. Jason Harris’ words are haunting:
    ” If we, as Christian churches, will not restrain our authority and use it in ways which are consistent with freedom and human dignity, the government can, should, and will step in to protect her citizens.”

    In particular, this phrase: “RESTRAIN OUR AUTHORITY AND USE IT IN WAYS WHICH ARE CONSISTENT WITH FREEDOM AND HUMAN DIGNITY”

    My Catholic response when seeing the words ‘human dignity’ was classic: I thought, Jason understands that the dignity of a human person means something precious to all Christian people because that person is made in the image of God and was given choices by God; and moreover, that person’s bears a soul that is God-given. Preserving the dignity of others IS a Christian work of love and of mercy.

    I look at 9 Marks, and I see a cult. The proof is the stinking fruit readily visible in how they treat those who oppose them. How did they go so wrong???

  33. George wrote:

    After all is said and done you are now the problem, because you haven’t acknowledged the sin in your life but you actually expect them to stop doing what they’ve been doing. They are “repentant” but haven’t actually said we did x, y, or zand we’re sorry.
    Since you are not inclined to allow them around your family and are done listening to them repeat the same lies, etc you are definitely the problem not them. And definitely don’t tell the pastors you have no authority to tell me who I will or will not allow to be around my family

    I saw this kind of dynamic at my ex-9Marxist church ALL of the time.
    *The senior pastor’s friend, a woman who is retired woman, had a vicious mouth on her and freely put down and humiliated men and women alike. Everyone who confronted her about her behavior got adamant denials from her that she had not done it. The senior pastor defended her saying that he had never heard her say it.
    There’s all kinds of things that he never heard/witnessed that take place.

    The woman freely humiliated professionals who came to the church potluck after the church service and told them, during the Great Recession, “not to come anymore until you have a job and you can contribute.” They were contributing. They always did. But any stupid, hurtful, dig she could make at people she did.
    Several people who were spoken to this way NEVER came back to church at all.

    She demanded that I use hate speech in talking about gays. No. It’s wrong. Class-less. I also work a job where that kind of thing is illegal and could get me fired. And one of my wonderful superiors is a gay man.

    Another man in a lower-rung position of leadership was permitted to sexually prey on the women of the church and grope them, many of them were wives/mothers.
    Even their alarmed children were on to him. The pastors/elders continued to let him be in this position (church greeter team), the pastors/elders insisted that all of the married couples had to confront this predator per Matth 18:15-17
    (that happened for years by countless couples), and I finally emailed the pastors/elders the criminal jury instructions for sexual battery and said if he laid a hand on me or came near me I would call 9-1-1 and have him arrested at church.

  34. George wrote:

    Let’s for instance something. If a family is mistreated by another family in the church repeatedly and when you confront them about it come back with “I have no idea what you’re talking about” over the course of a year and when you get sick of the rotten treatment and tell them that since they insist on treating you in this manner and making excuses or flat out denying that it even happened you tell them to stay away from your family they call the pastor to meet about the situation.

    You show up to meet with the pastors, tell them everything that has transpired over the last year and their response is “You need to see the sin in your life.” Let’s all get together and reconcile when you’re ready but it has to be done in the next few days. You show up to that meeting and nothing has changed, same lies, same excuses, same denying this, that or the other happened. You call them liars and you are reprimanded for doing it. After all is said and done you are now the problem, because you haven’t acknowledged the sin in your life but you actually expect them to stop doing what they’ve been doing. They are “repentant” but haven’t actually said we did x, y, or z and we’re sorry.

    Since you are not inclined to allow them around your family and are done listening to them repeat the same lies, etc you are definitely the problem not them. And definitely don’t tell the pastors you have no authority to tell me who I will or will not allow to be around my family. When you directly challenge them, you definitely have crossed the line and are in some serious sin and need to repent and reconcile with them because if you don’t you aren’t honoring the membership covenant and aren’t a person of integrity. Things like that just tick me off…. But I digress….

    Also, you’re going against scripture and us as your pastors, we love you and want the best for you, if only you could see the sin in your life…..

  35. George wrote:

    We were told that we couldn’t see their hearts so we weren’t allowed to determine if they were truly repentant.

    We don’t have to determine the quality of their repentance.

    That’s the purpose of *waiting* to see the fruit.

    Which, it seems to me, that leadership across the churchianity world absolutely refuses to do.

    And the fruit is not *words*.

    And fruit is not formed *overnight*.

    Love them, care for them, encourage them – but do NOT put them right back into the same situation that led to their downfall in the first place.

    One of the things that indicates a lack of repentance to me is the timing on just how quickly the supposedly repentant one wants to get back into the driver’s seat.

  36. Dave A A wrote:

    If only I’d taken out a copyright on the term “9 Marxist” back when I coined it, I could soon be raking in the ol’ royalties from T$G!

    I knew it was a commenter on TWW, but I forgot who. Sorry I didn’t give you credit Dave!

  37. Anonymous wrote:

    A church can make a declaration about another person’s confession – i.e., that confession is or is not consistent with NT teaching. But to determine the status of someone’s soul based on whether that person’s behavior is sufficiently representative of good Christian character is out of bounds.

    My ex-pastors/elders at my 9Marx-ist/John MacArthur-ite church who rent from the Seventh Day Adventists on Fremont Ave., in Sunnyvale, CA, have an answer for everything, including this. My ex-pastors/elders are manipulative liars who conveniently omit all of their own abuses, threats, lies, overstepping the bounds of things that are NONE of their business. They tell hundreds of church members who are ordered to stay for these excommunication/shunning meetings, after a Sunday church service, that the “pastors/elders had ‘worked with [name of church member being excommunicated] for a long time [usually say 5 years] to no avail.
    [name of church member] is not one of us and you should have nothing more to do with them. You should call them to repent if you have any contact with them or see them.”

    My ex-pastors/elders are bald-faced liars who can whip an entire room of members into a frenzy of hatred about a person and destroy that person’s reputation before all (anyone who dissented/thought/opposed/went to another church]. The other side of the story is, conveniently, NEVER told.

  38. That’s the purpose of *waiting* to see the fruit.

    Which, it seems to me, that leadership across the churchianity world absolutely refuses to do.

    And the fruit is not *words*.

    And fruit is not formed *overnight*.

    Love them, care for them, encourage them – but do NOT put them right back into the same situation that led to their downfall in the first place.

    One of the things that indicates a lack of repentance to me is the timing on just how quickly the supposedly repentant one wants to get back into the driver’s seat.

    Exactly, we are told take all the time you need. Two days later, it’s, we need to get this done. You really need to reconcile and be in fellowship with these people….

  39. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    If only I’d taken out a copyright on the term “9 Marxist” back when I coined it, I could soon be raking in the ol’ royalties from T$G!

    I knew it was a commenter on TWW, but I forgot who. Sorry I didn’t give you credit Dave!

    Actually, Dave A.A., the moment you came up with the term “9 Marxist” and used it you had copyright protection under U.S. law. You may want to register it with the US government so that you could later claim infringement.

    “When is my work protected?

    Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.” website: copyright.gov

    http://copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#what

  40. BL wrote:

    I don’t think I have *ever* heard a teaching or a sermon from a pulpit on Ezekiel 34. Has anyone else?

    I have never heard a sermon preached on this chapter either. Actually, the whole chapter is encouraging to those of us who have suffered at the hands of narcissistic pastors. Here is another good section:

    “Therefore, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will surely judge between the fat sheep and the scrawny sheep. For you fat sheep pushed and butted and crowded my sick and hungry flock until you scattered them to distant lands. So I will rescue my flock, and they will no longer be abused. I will judge between one animal of the flock and another. And I will set over them one shepherd, my servant David. He will feed them and be a shepherd to them. And I, the Lord, will be their God, and my servant David will be a prince among my people. I, the Lord, have spoken!”
    Ezekiel 34: 20-24

  41. Nancy2 wrote:

    http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/sermon/class-3-why-join-a-church/
    This is a link to a CHBC manuscript document for a membership class, written by Jamie Dunlop, associate pastor. About 2/3 of the way down, it states:
    “Obey Your Leaders………
    For church members: are you to obey every Christian leader who comes along? No; you’re to obey the leaders of your own church. The ones who you’ve signed up to submit to.”
    Whaddah big red flag!

    This jumped out at me: “The ones you’ve signed up to submit to.”

    Well then, the easy solution to that is: DON’T SIGN UP!!! Problem is avoided!

  42. @ BL:
    @ Todd Wilhelm:

    Here are a few more verses about pastors…
    You are NOT likly to hear from the pulpit… 😉

    The word “Pastors” is eight times in Jeremiah
    Six times God is NOT happy… 😉

    Jeremiah 2:8 KJV
    …”The Pastors” also transgressed against me,
    and the prophets prophesied by Baal,
    and walked after things that do not profit.

    Jeremiah 10:21 KJV
    For ”The Pastors” are become brutish, ( beastly, carnal )
    and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper,
    and all their flocks shall be scattered.

    Jeremiah 12:10 KJV
    Many “Pastors” have destroyed my vineyard,
    they have trodden my portion under foot,
    they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

    Jeremiah 22:22 KJV
    The *wind shall eat up all “Thy Pastors,”
    (*wind = ruwach = breath, mind, spirit.)
    and thy lovers shall go into captivity:
    surely then shalt thou be ashamed
    and confounded for all thy wickedness.

    Jeremiah 23:1 KJV
    Woe be unto ”The Pastors” that destroy
    and scatter the sheep of my pasture!

    Jeremiah 23:2 KJV
    …thus saith the LORD God of Israel
    against ”The Pastors” that feed my people;
    Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away,
    and have not visited them: behold,
    **I will visit upon you the evil of your doings,**
    saith the LORD.

    ——–

    Jeremiah also has “a word” for shepherds…

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  43. George wrote:

    One of the things that indicates a lack of repentance to me is the timing on just how quickly the supposedly repentant one wants to get back into the driver’s seat.
    Exactly, we are told take all the time you need. Two days later, it’s, we need to get this done. You really need to reconcile and be in fellowship with these people….

    George,
    Not knowing the full details of your all-to-familiar story, nor needing to, let me venture a guess as to the dynamics of the situation. Sovereign Grace pastors supposedly made a habit of knowing how much everyone gives. I would bet my next week’s tithe check that the other couple dropped more money in the offering plate than you did. Sovereign Grace consistently showed favoritism to the big donors. (Mahaney is preaching through James now – I wonder if he will see himself in this passage??? No, on the second thought, I don’t really wonder.) His actions also convict him of showing favoritism – by which I mean, he donates huge amounts of cash to Mohler and Dever, fully expecting the result will be that he is afforded favored status.

    Regarding forgiveness – read the last section of this blog. It was written by a guy who quit CLC. I think you will probably identify with it.

    https://thouarttheman.org/2013/09/21/749/

  44. Here’s something else that is quite puzzling to me about these 9Marx affiliated churches. They’re all about confession of sin, i.e.: confession of sin to others in the church body. That is odd since these folks are staunch in their defense of the Reformation and it’s repugnance toward Roman Catholic practices such as confession. Yet, here they go and stress confession of sins to others in the local church, which imo, is riskier than confessing one’s sins to a single person (priest) who is bound by canon law to the seal of the confessional. In these 9Marx affiliated churches no such obligation exists. The people who hear your confession are free to tell whomever they deem it necessary for *your* spiritual health. Having read many stories of former Mars Hill members, an Acts 29 church that was also big on public confession of sins to others in the local body, there were many cases of spiritual abuse that arose out of this practice. These Neo-Calvinists haven’t learned from the implosion of The Shepherding Movement.

  45. By the way, I speak from personal experience in that my former Christian cult practiced public confession. I remember many meetings that lasted for hours with people publicly confessing their sins in detail. Need I say that the results of this practice were disastrous?

  46. BL and Todd

    Here is a verse about “Titles”
    You are NOT likely to hear from the pulpit… 😉

    Job 32:21 KJV
    Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
    neither let me give “Flattering Titles” unto man.
    For I know not to give “Flattering Titles”;
    in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

    Today, I’m-a-thinkin…
    His Disciples must have read these verses about…
    “Pastors” and “Titles”
    And believed them.

    Because, in the Bible…
    NOT one of His Disciples took the “Title” pastor.
    Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  47. Todd

    Great article

    Thanks for the link to
    “When Church Discipline is Sin”
    The responce by Josh Harris, to Leemans comment was excellent.

    In that article the author try’s to link to Jamisons original article.
    The links to Jamisons original post produce an ‘Error.”

    FYI –

    Anyone interested in Jamisons original post….
    “Pastors, Don’t Let Your People Resign into Thin Air”
    .
    That post Gots lots of pushback…
    And is NO longer located on the original page at Nine Marks…
    .
    It was moved, and all the… errr…
    **Negative Robust Comments** disappeared…
    Or Nine Marks deleted them ALL… 😉
    .
    This is now the address of Jamisons original post.
    http://9marks.org/article/pastors-dont-let-your-people-resign-into-thin-air/
    ———–
    .
    And, Jonathan Leeman, attempted to come to his rescue with… Part 2…
    .
    Pastors, Don’t Let Your People Resign Into Thin Air, Part 2
    .
    http://9marks.org/article/pastors-dont-let-your-people-resign-into-thin-air-part-2/

  48. Deb wrote:

    Here’s the link:
    http://teaminfocus.com.au/when-church-discipline-is-sin/

    The case study astounds me, even though it’s hypothetical. A man calls the pastor broken-hearted over his wife’s adultery, and soon the elders and members pursue the adulterous wife in meetings and by email?

    Would it not make more sense for the pastor to start by consoling the man for awhile in private? Would this not help the husband to rebuild his strength? For a pastor to accompany the husband, the very next morning, to confront the unfaithful wife, seems rash, premature, and highly intrusive.

    Jesus did say “Go and sin no more.” Generally to sinners who came to him, and only after Jesus demonstrated a perfect understanding, compassion, mercy, love, and a belief in the possibility of repentance.

    Is there a story of Jesus ringing some lady’s doorbell and presenting her with her upset husband?

  49. Hi TODD WILHELM,
    I appreciate your quoting from Ezekiel 34:20-24 and I think you might appreciate this from the early Church also:
    ““For he who endeavours to amend the faults of human weakness ought to bear this very weakness on his own shoulders, let it weigh upon himself, not cast it off.
    For we read that the Shepherd in the Gospel (Luke 15:5) carried the weary sheep, and did not cast it off.
    And Solomon says: “Be not overmuch righteous;” (Ecclesiastes 7:17) for restraint should temper righteousness.
    For how shall he offer himself to you for healing whom you despise, who thinks that he will be an object of contempt, not of compassion, to his physician?
    Therefore had the Lord Jesus compassion upon us in order to call us to Himself, not frighten us away. He came in meekness, He came in humility, and so He said:
    “Come unto Me, all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I will refresh you.” (Matthew 11:28)
    So, then, the Lord Jesus refreshes, and does not shut out nor cast off, and fitly chose such disciples as should be interpreters of the Lord’s will, as should gather together and not drive away the people of God.
    Whence it is clear that they are not to be counted among the disciples of Christ, who think that harsh and proud opinions should be followed rather than such as are gentle and meek;
    persons who, while they themselves seek God’s mercy, deny it to others . . .”

    (St. Ambrose (340-379 A.D.),
    a Father and Doctor of the Church)

  50. Hey Dee, thinking of you, your family & your MIL at this time. May everything go as well as it possibly can, considering. Big love from England.

  51. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Sorry I didn’t give you credit Dave!

    I only wanted the credit (or cash) from T$G! Oh well…
    I have thought of a serious comment also but no time now– maybe tonight.

  52. George wrote:

    Exactly, we are told take all the time you need. Two days later, it’s, we need to get this done. You really need to reconcile and be in fellowship with these people….

    “The $pice Mu$t Flow…”

  53. Christiane wrote:

    In particular, this phrase: “RESTRAIN OUR AUTHORITY AND USE IT IN WAYS WHICH ARE CONSISTENT WITH FREEDOM AND HUMAN DIGNITY”

    “RIGHTEOUSNESS(TM)” is NOT consistent with (and often the opposite of) “Freedom and Human Dignity.”

  54. marquis wrote:

    Now here is where I have garnered true wisdom from those who have discernment. Thank you to Headless Unicorn guy, lawprof, and others who speak the truth.

    Over ten years growing up with a Master Manipulator and probable Sociopath in my immediate family. (NOT parent, younger brother.) “Discernment” isn’t worth much when everyone else only sees the Angel of Light.

    Back when I was on the fringe of Pentecostalism, I was the only one I knew of who when asked the stock question “What Gift of the Spirit do you want?” answered “Wisdom” instead of the usual “Tongues! Tongues! Tongues!” I found out later Wisdom has its drawbacks — after seeing “the dogs returning to their vomit, the sows returning to the mire, and the burnt fools’ bandaged fingers going right back into the fire” over and over and over and over, the urge to Choke the Stupid out of people can get overwhelming.

  55. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I have wondered about this. If they follow the basic premise of their heros system as they were taught when young at church or Seminary then do they need to be sociopathic? I am convinced Calvin was one by the consistent pattern of his life we see in his letters and behaviors. In order to implement the control of people required to actually practice it more authentically, it demands a degree of sociopathic behavior.

    We have seen other “systems” turn many young men into sociopaths enmasse throughout history.

  56. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I found out later Wisdom has its drawbacks — after seeing “the dogs returning to their vomit, the sows returning to the mire, and the burnt fools’ bandaged fingers going right back into the fire” over and over and over and over, the urge to Choke the Stupid out of people can get overwhelming.

    I can relate. There is nothing more frustrating. I have come to loathe deception more than anything. It is one reason loud mouthed jerks bother me less than most. To me they are annoying but honest. I have seen too much of the nice, polite, clever sociopath in action.

  57. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I found out later Wisdom has its drawbacks — after seeing “the dogs returning to their vomit, the sows returning to the mire, and the burnt fools’ bandaged fingers going right back into the fire” over and over and over and over, the urge to Choke the Stupid out of people can get overwhelming.

    I can relate. There is nothing more frustrating. I have come to loathe deception more than anything. It is one reason loud mouthed jerks bother me less than most. To me they are annoying but honest. I have seen too much of the nice, polite, clever sociopath in action. And you learn to keep your mouth shut about them. No one will believe you. And there is never any proof. They are already 10 chess moves ahead.

  58. Darlene wrote:

    By the way, I speak from personal experience in that my former Christian cult practiced public confession. I remember many meetings that lasted for hours with people publicly confessing their sins in detail. Need I say that the results of this practice were disastrous?

    Oh man. Somebody was telling me the other day that a girl who used to work at their office was forced to confess her sins (getting pregnant without being married’ to the whole congregation. And sort of got pressured into marrying the guy, and apparently he wasn’t a great guy.

    But then that is a rather, obvious, sin! I can’t imagine confessing things nobody else would know on purpose to a bunch of people. How awful!

  59. @ Darlene:
    Did you notice the leaders would confess rather benign sins now and then? Any way that practice is right out of Chinese reeducation camps. Thought Reform.

  60. E@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Lydia wrote:

    We have seen other “systems” turn many young men into sociopaths enmasse throughout history.

    Somehow, Genghis Khan, his descendants, and The Golden Horde popped into my mind when I read this!

  61. Lea wrote:

    I can’t imagine confessing things nobody else would know on purpose to a bunch of people. How awful!

    I can still vividly remember the day my husband and I returned to the *fellowship* after having left for about one month. We were present at a large gathering (at least 200 people) where various members were confessing their sins and afterward being publicly judged. I sat there going round and round in my head, trembling inside at the thought of having to confess the damning sin of…..leaving.

  62. Lydia wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    Did you notice the leaders would confess rather benign sins now and then? Any way that practice is right out of Chinese reeducation camps. Thought Reform.

    The founder/leader of the fellowship did not publicly confess his sins while I was there because he was looked at as blameless. However, several years after I left the leader/pastor publicly admitted that he had “missed grace.” After that admittance, shortly thereafter he went right back to his former methods of spiritual abuse.

    I get what you are saying about Chinese reeducation camps. Many of us who are ex-members have discussed the similarities to Chairman Mao’s regime and our cult. Publicly shaming members was common. And the leader/pastor’s teachings and little nuggies (that’s what we called them) were viewed with the same reverence as Father Mao’s Little Red Book of wise sayings.

  63. Darlene wrote:

    We were present at a large gathering (at least 200 people) where various members were confessing their sins and afterward being publicly judged. I sat there going round and round in my head, trembling inside at the thought of having to confess the damning sin of…..leaving.

    “Enlightened Self-Criticism Before Party Commissars (and before The People at the Show Trial)”

  64. Lydia wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    Did you notice the leaders would confess rather benign sins now and then?

    Like how many mints Lead Pastor Furtick ate in a year?

  65. I watched that video again of Mark Dever and Johnathan Leeman. It occurred to me that they are using the term “9Marxist” incorrectly. The 9Marxist adage popularly used here by TWW commenters is actually an insult to the system and method/s that Dever and Leeman promote in their church discipline procedures. The term 9Marxist is meant to reveal the similarities of a Marxist Communist regime and the Church Discipline procedures that Dever and Leeman support. That is, the same tactics of control, propaganda, fear, peer pressure, and loaded language usage that the Marxists used it the same tactics that 9Marxist affiliated churches use.

    However, they don’t see it that way. They will defend their system and methods to the hilt. They staunchly defend their teachings on church discipline and suggest the only problem is the young, immature pastors who implement said discipline wrongly. They fail to recognize that the problem is following their advice in how to carry out church discipline in the first place. They fail to recognize that the problem is their system and methods, not the weaknesses of immature pastors and elders. The system from the ground up is set up for failure and leads to spiritual abuse. Yet, they are either oblivious to all of this, or are aware of it and just don’t care. It is mind boggling.

  66. Darlene wrote:

    Many of us who are ex-members have discussed the similarities to Chairman Mao’s regime and our cult. Publicly shaming members was common. And the leader/pastor’s teachings and little nuggies (that’s what we called them) were viewed with the same reverence as Father Mao’s Little Red Book of wise sayings.

    Why are all of these NeoCal pastors’ publishing books? Even horrible self-published books that should have never been “published” in the first place. When I was growing up it was rare for any pastor to publish a book. Now they’re all doing it and it’s not even good stuff. (Mark Driscoll,
    Doug Wilson and other pastor-“writers” also have been caught plagiarizing.)

  67. Darlene wrote:

    Here’s something else that is quite puzzling to me about these 9Marx affiliated churches. They’re all about confession of sin, i.e.: confession of sin to others in the church body.

    These 9Marxist/NeoCal churches go a lot further in many cases than just confessing sins to one another, they actually (church members, pastors, elders) have meetings and ACCUSE members of sin for having an opinion, thought, critical thinking skills.

    In my experience many of these church leaders are bullies, liars, and master manipulators.

  68. Mark Dever ‏@MarkDever Mar 2
    “If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?” I Co. 9:11 (bible says, pay your pastor)

    That passage also says “the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel” (I Cor. 9:14). Sure, the Bible says pay your pastor … but Brother Mark, the Bible also says preach the Gospel! Calvinism, and its authoritarian belief and practice, is not the Gospel that reaches a lost world with the message of Christ.

  69. Here’s something else I have observed. There is a propaganda technique: It is the method of using a word with negative connotations and spinning its meaning to minimize its harmfulness. Dever and Leeman using the term 9Marxist in such a ha ha, lighthearted fashion indicates they don’t take the implications of such a term as 9Marxist applied to them very seriously. And thus, the actual meaning of the term is minimized, even disposed of completely. Doug Wilson is a master manipulator at doing this sort of thing, as is evidenced in his views on slavery, Patriarchy, Reconstructionism, imprecatory prayer, etc. The leader of my former cult was able to accomplish this kind of manipulation by the way in which he used and twisted the actual meaning of the word *cult.*

  70. Max wrote:

    Mark Dever ‏@MarkDever Mar 2
    “If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?” I Co. 9:11 (bible says, pay your pastor)
    That passage also says “the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel” (I Cor. 9:14). Sure, the Bible says pay your pastor … but Brother Mark, the Bible also says preach the Gospel! Calvinism, and its authoritarian belief and practice, is not the Gospel that reaches a lost world with the message of Christ.

    This may be true Max, but even the Apostle Paul kept his tent making job while preaching the gospel at the same time. I don’t think this sort of thing would go over too well among these 9Marxist, Neo-Cal pastors.

  71. Darlene wrote:

    They will defend their system and methods to the hilt. They staunchly defend their teachings on church discipline and suggest the only problem is the young, immature pastors who implement said discipline wrongly. They fail to recognize that the problem is following their advice in how to carry out church discipline in the first place. They fail to recognize that the problem is their system and methods, not the weaknesses of immature pastors and elders. The system from the ground up is set up for failure and leads to spiritual abuse. Yet, they are either oblivious to all of this, or are aware of it and just don’t care. It is mind boggling.

    Now that I’m out of a 9Marxist church, I took another read of Mark Devers’ literature/books that were foisted on us a “The Gospel” at my ex-church.

    One of the striking things I noticed in Dever’s writings, and solutions, was that Dever blamed church members for everything. They wanted to leave through the back exits, it was their fault. (OK, what’s wrong with you Mark that they don’t like you and can’t leave through the front exit in a graceful fashion, amicably?)

    Dever blamed members’ for being on the membership roles, thus the authoritarian crowbar of the Church Membership Covenant, for pastors/elders to insinuate themselves and control church members’ lives about virtually anything, and that is what is happening. Dever blamed members again. Dever never owned up to his own failings, such as not picking up the phone and calling missing members to ask them if they’d like to be including on the membership roster or not?

    I have yet to see Mark Dever assume responsibility for any church problem. It’s always members’ faults. Gets really old.

    Mark Dever’s authoritarian elder-led church model again assumes that church members, men and women alike, are not capable of running their church (where they are members, give money, donate their time) via a congregational vote. They are mere serfs to be controlled.

  72. Dave A A wrote:

    I only wanted the credit (or cash) from T$G! Oh well…
    I have thought of a serious comment also but no time now– maybe tonight.

    How about T$G! sends you boxes of their *free books*, t-shirts for a lifetime, coffee mugs, and key chains? Oh yes, and burqas for the women in your family, given that the NeoCals have declared “Shehad” (term invented by Brad @futuristguy), She + Had, sounds like jihad) for the War on Women.

  73. Darlene wrote:

    the Apostle Paul kept his tent making job while preaching the gospel at the same time. I don’t think this sort of thing would go over too well among these 9Marxist, Neo-Cal pastor

    Indeed. The New Calvinists are setting up shop primarily in “yuppie” areas to attract a young crowd they can indoctrinate with reformed teaching, as well as plenty dollars to go around. While Paul could have made a living off the Gospel, he chose not to … he put it this way “If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel” (1 Cor. 9:17-18). As you note, I’m not sure we would have many NC takers with this arrangement. On the other hand, my son-in-law is a “bi-vocational” SBC non-Calvinist pastor. He works a full-time job, while also pastoring a rural church which provides minimal support. He is a seminary graduate who could be preaching in a larger church, but feels called to serve God and rural church members in this manner.

  74. I wonder if many of the people who attend these churches are not grounded in the Word. A lot of churches no longer have Sunday School. They just have the church service, so the only thing you learn about is what is being preached from the pulpit. Which we know is not good. They stress the little group meetings, but they are told what to talk about. i still remember that the minister of my church that I grew up in preached the 119th Psalm every Wednesday night over a summer. You don’t forget the Word of God being preached to you the way it is supposed to.

  75. What OT book is it on the last verse about “they called good evil and evil good”?

    I suppose what’s confusing for some is that the self proclaimed authoritarian clergy protect/cover up for/ excuse those who are the abusers and/or molesters,etc. and persecute the victims. Whether it’s the churches you’re referring to, the Catholic, or Anglican, or or or….. the wolves in sheeps clothing for power and profit.

    You know the confession thing has been used for blackmail in the RC church, psychology, and cults.

  76. Harley wrote:

    I wonder if many of the people who attend these churches are not grounded in the Word. A lot of churches no longer have Sunday School. They just have the church service, so the only thing you learn about is what is being preached from the pulpit.

    I guess it depends on the size of the church. My ex-NeoCal church/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite did have Adult Sunday School and Children’s Sunday School. Adult Sunday School was taught by elders/associate pastors who indoctrinated the members with whatever the senior pastor was giving a sermon about. (Attendance was taken and recorded for a members’ record. Ditto Bible studies. Everything we said was reported up the chain of command to pastors/elders.)

  77. @ Darlene:
    Remember, Leeman compared Jesus to the old Soviet Union. The land of gulags, totalitarianism, control of the people by those in power, etc. The Lenin/Stalin brand of Marx. Seems Leeman and Dever actually get it and agree.

  78. BL wrote:

    It is the way of humans – that’s why we see the same control structures established over and over again.

    The way of humans handed too much power.

  79. Here is my latest update.
    I still haven’t been able to generate much income. I spent most of the day Tuesday at the local Workforce Center taking job search classes, etc as a requirement for receiving Food Assistance. Part of that requires that I volunteer a certain amount of hours per month. I am hoping I might be able to turn that around to something that can generate income.
    I am still taking the writing class and learning some valuable things.
    In the meantime, the bills still need to be paid. I have paid all of March’s bills but one…it still needs $125 on and it was do last Monday. I will need to get more food next week (the food assistance is great, but it doesn’t stretch for the whole month), and then, April’s rent is coming up – $565.
    I am so grateful to all who have helped so far. I did not expect the wonderful response I have received. I also did not expect to still need help…but I do.
    So, if anyone is still able and willing to help, I would be very appreciative. You all have been awesome. Thank you!

    Dr Win: I downloaded those programs and some of them are definitely helpful and actually kinda rock. Thanks!

    To all of you: Thank you so much for the suggestions, encouragements and prayers. They are very appreciated.

    To Dee: again, thank you so much for all you do. Your are amazing.

  80. @ dee:
    Dee – I am praying for you and your family. May God supply what you need physically and emotionally through this time.

  81. Harley wrote:

    hey stress the little group meetings, but they are told what to talk about

    In a previous experience, we were encouraged to discuss the sermon in our community group. 🙁

  82. @ Jeannette Altes:

    Hi Jeanette,

    I have a couple of ideas.
    1. Tomorrow is “Open Thread Friday” over at Alison Green’s blog
    http://www.askamanager.org/

    That means anything work related people can post questions about and ask for an assist. It’s a savvy crowd of readers/posers over there and I have gotten really good advice for various situations.

    2. Debtors Anonymous

    They are a free naton-wide group in the US with in-person meetings in most major metro areas as well as phone-in meetings and Skype meetings for those who can’t attend in person. (They also have these meetings in many other countries around the globe.)

    http://debtorsanonymous.org/getting_started/index.php/find/

    It’s just a thought of a place where you could get support and ideas, if you wished. People who are in debt, unemployed, under-employed, self-employed,
    and also those with medical issues use D.A. for support and “pressure relief groups” to come up with an action plan, a meeting with two other people about your numbers.

    There are those who do just fine without these groups, and others who find comfort and help from them.

  83. What gets me is that they claim/think they are “spiritually superior” and that is the best they can do to justify it?? Really…

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    I highly recommend folks read Leemans bizarre comment in the link provided by Todd. I have not seen such tortured illogical illustrations in my life. Leeman needs a real job in the real world
    Sad, but absolutely true.

  84. OK, here’s a problem I spotted in the Mark Dever & Jonathan Leeman video.
    Leeman mentions toward the end that the church “is recovering Biblical concepts”, which is Mark Dever’s usual argument.

    No, no, no.

    How many pages of a Membership Covenant did Jesus make people sign to follow Him?
    The winning answer? 0 pages!

    The Apostle Paul made people sign how many pages to join a church? 0 pages.

  85. Beakerj wrote:

    Hey Dee, thinking of you, your family & your MIL at this time. May everything go as well as it possibly can, considering. Big love from England.

    Amen.

  86. BC wrote:

    What OT book is it on the last verse about “they called good evil and evil good”?

    The Scripture you reference: “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!” (Isaiah 5:20)

    From the steady stream of TWW “evil” reports, it’s obvious that there has been an outbreak of this passage in the American church! And God still shouts “Woe!” from the heavens to such shepherds who are serving up substitutes instead of the genuine, who have allowed darkness to penetrate their ministries.

  87. Velour wrote:

    the church “is recovering Biblical concepts”

    For folks who talk grace, grace, grace all the time, the New Calvinists are trying to bring God’s people back under the law, instead of life in Christ. When you try to reduce the Bible to “Biblical concepts”, you miss Christ’s message for the Kingdom of God altogether.

  88. Velour wrote:

    Leeman mentions toward the end that the church “is recovering Biblical concepts”, which is Mark Dever’s usual argument.

    No, no, no.

    How many pages of a Membership Covenant did Jesus make people sign to follow Him?
    The winning answer? 0 pages!

    LOL. I agree with you – how do you recover something biblical that was never biblical?

    From the Vimeo of their breakout sessions they are “recovering biblical concepts of membership.”

    In which they ask the question,

    “How steep is the learning curve for recovering biblical concepts of membership? ”

    The learning curve is not as steep as the torsion curve for twisting Scripture in order to wrest out unbiblical concepts of membership.

    2 Cor 11: “For you permit it, if a man brings you into bondage, if a man devours you, if a man takes of you, if a man exalts himself, if a man smites you on the face.

    Different teachers, same yoke.

  89. Velour wrote:

    Leeman mentions toward the end that the church “is recovering Biblical concepts”, which is Mark Dever’s usual argument.

    Ees Party Line, Comrades.

  90. Harley wrote:

    They stress the little group meetings, but they are told what to talk about.

    Party Cells “guided” by a Party Commissar?

  91. Law Prof wrote:

    Many of these leaders have seared consciences

    And they destroy the consciences of their followers.

    Some of the different ways that I can see –

    They force eternal infancy on their followers. No one ever grows up and graduates. Jesus taught people for 3 years and launched them out into the world. These leaders teach people for 30 years and don’t even want them to move across town without running it by them first.

    They teach (this was especially true in the shep/disc movement) that you cannot trust your own ability to determine right from wrong. No matter how calm and respectful and submissive your presentation might be, no matter how simple or heinous the issue – YOU will always ultimately be the problem.

    They teach that obedience to them supercedes any questions or concerns you might have. They may on occasion admit that they MIGHT make a mistake – BUT, as long as you continue in obedience and submission to them, IF YOU are right, then GOD will correct them. And since they seem completely unable to see when God IS correcting them – then you were again wrong, and they continue to be right.

    They label independence and individual as being negative, sinful ideas. Well, let me rephrase that. They are all about the independence of their church, but the independence of the individual? Yeah…not so much.

    We read in Hebrews that the *mature* believer no longer is nursing milk bottles held to their mouths by a nanny-leader, but is eating solid food. And how did that believer get mature?

    Quoting from different versions:

    because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

    who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

    those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practiceto distinguish good from evil.

    WHAT?

    Believers CONSTANTLY using their OWN powers of discernment?

    Believers PRACTICING their OWN discernment?

    Believer TRAINING their OWN discernment?

    Believers determining between GOOD and EVIL?

    All the teaching, preaching, churchy covenants, discipline, seminars etc is NEVER going to bring believers to maturity.

    Oh, they claim that is their goal – but their fruit gives lie to that claim.

    If parents reared children the way churchianity rears believers – the world would be filled with adults walking around in diapers, holding daddy’s hand, sucking on pacifiers, talking in baby talk, looking at mommy when someone asks them a question, and waiting at dinner for someone to cut up and feed them their chicken, peas, & mashed potatoes bite by bite.

    And if you walked in with some maturity, it will eventually be undermined by the teachings you are submitting to.

    Just envelope that concept in churchianity, and that’s what we have today.

  92. zooey111 wrote:

    Beakerj wrote:

    Hey Dee, thinking of you, your family & your MIL at this time. May everything go as well as it possibly can, considering. Big love from England.

    Amen.

    And another amen from California.

  93. BL wrote:

    LOL. I agree with you – how do you recover something biblical that was never biblical?
    From the Vimeo of their breakout sessions they are “recovering biblical concepts of membership.”

    In my opinion, Mark Dever is arrogant. He alone has “re-discovered” Biblical concepts that were “lost” for a couple of thousand years (apparently everyone else was too stupid to find them, but Mark Dever rides to the rescue).

  94. BL wrote:

    And if you walked in with some maturity, it will eventually be undermined by the teachings you are submitting to.

    Yep, folks possessing some spiritual sense are actually discouraged rather than encouraged in New Calvinist works. Reformed indoctrination does not equal spiritual sense … if you had any spiritual sense, you would not subject yourself to theological aberration! Calvin required complete submission to his teachings or you were expelled from Geneva … or martyred. For folks listening in to this who are currently trapped in a New Calvinist church (perhaps one of those cool SBC church plants), it would be best for you to get the heck out now – better to endure shunning for a season than have your spiritual growth retarded.

  95. Harley wrote:

    They stress the little group meetings, but they are told what to talk about

    In my ex-9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite/NeoCal authoritarian church, people could only attend pre-approved groups with yes-men chosen by the pastors/elders to lead them. Everything that a person said in a Bible study was reported back up the chain of command to the pastors/elders.

    They also took attendance for everything, from church services to Adult Sunday School to Bible Study groups. Members’ attendance was also the subject of pastors/elders’ meetings.

    My (ex) senior pastor SCREAMED at me and demanded to know why I hadn’t been attended a week night Bible study and what was my “excuse”? Me: “I work and I commute. I’m not back in time.”

  96. Max wrote:

    Calvin required complete submission to his teachings or you were expelled from Geneva … or martyred. For folks listening in to this who are currently trapped in a New Calvinist church (perhaps one of those cool SBC church plants), it would be best for you to get the heck out now – better to endure shunning for a season than have your spiritual growth retarded.

    Thanks, Max, for your wise counsel and encouragement. This is me and I needed to hear it.

  97. BL wrote:

    They force eternal infancy on their followers. No one ever grows up and graduates. Jesus taught people for 3 years and launched them out into the world. These leaders teach people for 30 years and don’t even want them to move across town without running it by them first.

    Reminds me of some forgotten SF/horror novel from a Seventies-vintage Analog book review. One where an immortality treatment had the side effect of sterility (solving a problem of the premise). It mentioned “Immortal Unaging Neurotic Mothers giving themselves Immortal Unaging Infants to tend for all Eternity”, hence the “horror” tag.

    (Especially if your mother tried her best to keep you “Mommy’s Widdle Baby” for all her life…)

  98. Velour wrote:

    In my opinion, Mark Dever is arrogant. He alone has “re-discovered” Biblical concepts that were “lost” for a couple of thousand years (apparently everyone else was too stupid to find them, but Mark Dever rides to the rescue).

    Dever is ‘rediscovering’ the same ‘membership covenant’ crap dug up and promulgated by the shepherding movement in the 70s.

    While 4 of the 5 leaders apologized and kinda repented, one of the 5, Charles Simpson, continued and continues teaching the need for membership covenants.

    Nothin’ new under the sun…

  99. Darlene wrote:

    it’s repugnance toward Roman Catholic practices such as confession. Yet, here they go and stress confession of sins to others in the local church, which imo, is riskier than confessing one’s sins to a single person (priest) who is bound by canon law to the seal of the confessional

    The difference is imo that the RCC teaches that it’s the priest who forgives your sins following confession and imposes a penance which apparently is the price for sinning.

    Correct me if I’m wrong.

  100.  __

    “How can the path be made straight when the  stones are laid crooked?”

    hmmm…

    Mark Dever has founded his church group (9 Marks) on the writings of John Calvin.

    huh?

    John Calvin founded his writings on the Knostic writings of Augustine.

    What?

    Mark Dever and his group of ‘churches’ are selling/marketing Calvinism AS the scriptural embodiment of  the Church Jesus founded by His blood.

    Skreeeeeeeetch!

    Of course this is a false position.

    Jesus Christ’s Churrh is not founded on John Calvin’s writings.

    But it is what He (Mark Dever) teaches (i.e. Calvinism) wether he tells you this or not.

    Buyer beware!

    See your Bible for details…

    (Keep your eyes on da  ball (Jesus Christ)

    ATB  🙂

    Sopy

  101. From the OP: “What are the 2Marks? Membership and discipline, discipline and more discipline. Did I mention discipline? ”

    From Leeman: “Most importantly, church discipline protects the name and reputation of Jesus Christ on earth.

    That statement made my irony meter meltdown and then explode.

    Which has a greater impact on Jesus’ reputation in the world’s view, greater destruction to the believers, and greater division to the body?

    The sins of Pamela and Poindexter Pewsitter OR the scandals inflicted on us by churchianity leaders ?

    Tullian Tchividjian
    Mark Driscoll
    C. J. Mahaney
    Bill Gothard
    Doug Phillips

    Just to name some of the most recent.

    So, why isn’t 9Marks taking their discipline show on the road, heading out into the public square to bring discipline upon their fellow leaders whose actions bring more shame and mockery to the name of Jesus than Pamela and Pointdexter Pewsitter ever could?

  102. BL wrote:

    Dever is ‘rediscovering’ the same ‘membership covenant’ crap dug up and promulgated by the shepherding movement in the 70s.

    Yep. Too bad those being sucked in have never heard of the shepherding movement.

  103. @ BL:

    So true, BL. Mark Dever has just given the 1970’s un-Biblical Shepherding Movement a new language.

  104. Velour wrote:

    In my opinion, Mark Dever is arrogant. He alone has “re-discovered” Biblical concepts that were “lost” for a couple of thousand years

    I found another gem ‘rediscovered by 9Marks that seems to lack, uh, – support:”

    ” “The local church represents heaven. It is also God’s embassy on earth. We don’t join churches, we submit to them. Church membership is the declaration of citizenship in Christ’s Kingdom.””

    That last sentence – is he saying that NOT being a church member is a declaration that you are NOT a citizen in Christ’s kingdom?

  105. Deb wrote:

    BL wrote:

    Dever is ‘rediscovering’ the same ‘membership covenant’ crap dug up and promulgated by the shepherding movement in the 70s.

    Yep. Too bad those being sucked in have never heard of the shepherding movement.

    “Nine out of ten Fresh New Ideas are really Old Mistakes. But to a generation who was not around when those Old Mistakes were last made, they seem like Fresh New Ideas.”
    — G.K.Chesterton (from memory)
    (To which I would add “What Could Possibly Go Wrong?”)

  106. BL wrote:

    I found another gem ‘rediscovered by 9Marks that seems to lack, uh, – support:”

    ” “The local church represents heaven. It is also God’s embassy on earth. We don’t join churches, we submit to them. Church membership is the declaration of citizenship in Christ’s Kingdom.””

    That last sentence – is he saying that NOT being a church member is a declaration that you are NOT a citizen in Christ’s kingdom?

    I keep remembering some Christian Cult Watch book from the Seventies. It mentioned a Cult who actually named themselves “The Local Church” and claimed ALL biblical references to “the local church” referred to themselves and themselves alone. Pretty much saying the same thing as the ManaGAWD there.

  107. BL wrote:

    So, why isn’t 9Marks taking their discipline show on the road, heading out into the public square to bring discipline upon their fellow leaders whose actions bring more shame and mockery to the name of Jesus than Pamela and Pointdexter Pewsitter ever could?

    RANK. HATH. ITS. PRIVILEGES.
    (Especially when such Rank is bestowed by Divine Right.)

  108. BL wrote:

    found another gem ‘rediscovered by 9Marks that seems to lack, uh, – support:”
    ” “The local church represents heaven. It is also God’s embassy on earth. We don’t join churches, we submit to them. Church membership is the declaration of citizenship in Christ’s Kingdom.””
    That last sentence – is he saying that NOT being a church member is a declaration that you are NOT a citizen in Christ’s kingdom?

    Wow, B.L. I had not seen that. It doesn’t surprise me given Mark Dever’s arrogance. I mean the guy believes that he is the “keeper of the keys” (i.e. excommunication/shunnings) for any thought.

    He is completely lacking in love and wisdom, unfit to be a shepherd. He has done so much damage.

    Not surprised he has put the local 9Marxist church, which is really Hell on earth, on par with Heaven.

  109. Max wrote:

    “If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?” I Co. 9:11 (bible says, pay your pastor)

    No, Mark Dever all you and your followers did was abuse and fleece the flock. I demand a full refund, compounded with interest. I also need therapy and a long-stay at the Ritz-Carlton for a full recovery.

  110. Darlene wrote:

    They fail to recognize that the problem is their system and methods, not the weaknesses of immature pastors and elders. The system from the ground up is set up for failure and leads to spiritual abuse. Yet, they are either oblivious to all of this, or are aware of it and just don’t care.

    The Party Can Do No Wrong.
    Ees Party Line, Comrades.

  111. BL wrote:

    If parents reared children the way churchianity rears believers – the world would be filled with adults walking around in diapers, holding daddy’s hand, sucking on pacifiers, talking in baby talk, looking at mommy when someone asks them a question, and waiting at dinner for someone to cut up and feed them their chicken, peas, & mashed potatoes bite by bite.

    There are those who do just that for sexual arousal.
    And they’re Very Proud of It.
    Don’t ask me how I know this.
    (I wish I had never heard… I wish I had never seen… Ia, Ia, Cthulhu, Fthagn…)

  112. These neo-cal inventors misunderstand a vital element of the New Covenant: It is NEW. It is different. It is not similar to the Mosaic Covenant, that obsolete system of priests, high priests and stoning for sins.

    Heb 8:13
    In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Jer. 31:31
    “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    The New Covenant does not reinvent priests and high priests, renaming them as “anointed” pastors and elders. Stoning has not been replaced by excommunication.

    The New Covenant has Jesus as High Priests and we are to serve Him, and one another, in love.

  113. Thanks, Todd, for the links to Jacobsen. He’s got some great/refreshing stuff to say even though his ideas about the wrath of God in relation to atonement are a bit goofy, imo.

  114. BL wrote:

    That last sentence – is he saying that NOT being a church member is a declaration that you are NOT a citizen in Christ’s kingdom?

    How convenient for Dever, Leeman & Co. considering they also believe they are the ones called to rule Christ’s kingdom here on earth.

  115. __

    “Mean-ing-ful Church Membership: Preserving The Calvinista Gospel?”

    hmmm…

    “The local church represents Heaven, it is also ‘God’s Embassy On Earth’ ™. We don’t join churches, we SUBMIT to them. Church membership is the declaration of Citizenship In Christ’s Kingdom.” -Jonathan Leeman ; editorial director for 9Marks

    huh?

    Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit, Submit…

    What?

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch !

    Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

    Buyer(s) Beware?

    Yep!

    ***

    “As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by The Trickery Of Men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming… 
    -Ephesians 4:14

    “You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of Unprincipled Men and fall from your own steadfastness…”
    -2 Peter 3:17

    “Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For Such Men Are Slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech They Deceive The Hearts Of The Unsuspecting…”
    -Romans 16:17-18

    “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, If Any Man Is Preaching To You A Gospel Contrary To What You Received, –he is to be accursed!”
    -Galatians 1:8-9

    “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as There Will Also Be False Teachers Among You, Who Will Secretly Introduce Destructive Heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves…”
    -2 Peter 2:1

    Pls. consult your Bible for further details!

    Accept No Substitute(s) N’ Keep your eyes on da ball (Jesus Christ)…

    In the hollow of His hand,
    ATB  🙂

    Sopy
    __
    Ref:
    http://www.sebts.edu/mobile/headlines/articles/fa149marksMeaningfulChurchMembership.aspx

    Intermission: Ina Wroldsen- “How Deep Is Your Love?”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qWWSM3wCiKY

    ;~)

  116.   __

    “Amazing Grace? : A Simple Inportant Admonition To Receive Christ…”

    hmmm…

    A Moment Of Your Time ?

    Skreeeeeeeeeeetch !

    Notice: “The Calvinist present great stumbling blocks to ‘Christ’s Work Of Salvation’ ™.”

    huh?

    Therefore, please further educate yourself by reading the following scriptures:

    “…I will draw all men unto myself…” -Jesus

     “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39″For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”…
    -Acts 2:38

    “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!” -Mark 1:15

    “and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
    -Luke  24:47

    Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
    -Acts 3:19

    All the prophets testify about Him (ed. Jesus) that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.”
    -Acts 10:43

    “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.”
    -Acts 13:38

    “I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.”
    -Acts 20:21

    “And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.”
    -Acts 22:16

    “…to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'”
    -Acts 26:18

    “The time has come,” Jesus said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
    -Mark 1:15

    If you have not done so already, please repent, and be baptized every one of you kind Wartburg Watch readers in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost!

    Accept No Substitutes!

    Pls. Consult your Bible for further details!

    In the shadow of His wings,
    ATB  🙂

    Sopy
    __
    Intermission: Third Day and friends – “Amazing Grace”
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5bNaKeHL7ws

    ;~)

  117. @ Kin:
    Believe it or not, the idea that God is a cruel, cosmic child abuser has not been accepted by many through history. Many believe Jesus was God in Flesh being the ultimate sacrifice. One confusion is the lack of Hebrew understanding that doing business with the son was the same as doing business with the father. An equal. We see this clearly communicated in John 5. It is communicated again with the idea of sitting at the “right hand” of God. A place of equality. The Reformation really promoted the P in substitutionary atonement and disdained any Hebrew understanding.

    People who lean more toward Christus Victor or Ransom theory are not goofy. Both of those view Jesus Christ as God in the flesh making a huge sacrifice out of love.

    PSA works by positioning Jesus Christ as a lesser God for whom God had to punish because He is so angry.

  118.   __

    “The Sun Sets On First Century Christianity?”

    hmmm…

      At the end of the day men and women who subscribe to Calvinism believe it to be the gospel ( i.e. the good news of Jesus Christ)

    Of course this position is scripturally false.

    But still the mental gymnastics continues.

      The sad truth is that the Protestant Reformation failed to capture and restore first century Christianity.

      Now today, there are piles and piles of Orthodoxy which amounts to the Reformed Faith which is sononomous with Calvinism. A vast parade of religious individuals devout and circumspect in their own right consistently presenting the view that Calvinism is ‘Right’ and all other positions false. 

      With this current situation ‘In Place’  anyone presenting a first century view of the gospel of Jesus Christ is viewed as reinventing the wheel.

    You decide.

    Consult your Bible for further details…

    ATB 🙂

    Sopy

  119. Lydia wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    Did you notice the leaders would confess rather benign sins now and then?

    Of course leaders confess benign sins, it “humanizes” them, allows them to be able to say “I stood up in front of all those people and confessed my sins!” Last time I saw a sermon (no longer go to church) it was online, the young assistant pastor, probably 32 to 35, got a little choked up as he confessed his “sin” of how he once resisted coming under the senior pastor’s authority, then used the confession of this grievous sin to make the larger point about how fine a man senior pastor was, just the sort of man worthy of such submission.

  120. @ BL:

    Exactly, and perhaps why John said (paraphrasing) “You don’t need teachers, because you have the Holy Spirit.”

  121.   __

    ” Calvinism Presents False Doctrine?”

    hmmm…

    “Calvinism” is very popular and many Christians, though they would not identify themselves as Calvinists, they may have embraced some of Calvin’s doctrine without realizing it. 

    huh?

    The doctrine is named after a man named John Calvin, a reformer, who lived in the 1500’s. 

    Yet, Calvinism propagates biblical error. 

    What?

    —> Knowledge of error helps us to be discerning when listening to or reading Christian material. 

    Skreeeeeeeeetch !

    If a teacher is a Calvinist, all that they teach will be taught through the lens of Calvinism. 

    The result of this Calvinistic “bent” will be biblical teachings that are dangerously distorted.

    Crash!

    The following is just a simple outline of Calvinism . . .

    T.U.L.I.P. is an acronym used by Calvinists to describe the main five points of Calvinism.

    T stands for TOTAL DEPRAVITY – This “Calvin” doctrine propagates the error that that man is so depraved and corrupt that he is not capable of making a choice to follow the Lord. It is taught that God is the one who predestines some to believe in Him and be born again, and predestines others not to believe in Him. The ones who are not predestined to believe will perish in hell. This doctrine denies free will. They say it doesn’t, but it does.

    SCRIPTURE CLEARLY TEACHES that an individual has the God given ability to choose:

    Matthew 11:20 “Then began he (Jesus) to UPBRAID the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:”

    (UPBRAID – Find fault with, or reproach severely. dictionary.com)

    Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but YOU WERE NOT WILLING!” (NKJV)

    Romans 1:18-20 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, FOR GOD HAS SHOWN IT TO THEM. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE,” (NKJV)

    U stands for UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION – This “Calvin” doctrine propagates the error that some individuals are elected/chosen to salvation, and some are not. It is taught that God’s choices are unconditional.

    SCRIPTURE CLEARLY TEACHES that Christ is the chosen, Christ is the elect. When we believe the gospel we are then called chosen and elect because we are “in Christ.” It’s not about us, it’s about Christ.

    Matthew 12:18 “Behold my servant, whom I have CHOSEN; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.”

    Luke 23:35 “And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the CHOSEN of God.”

    Isaiah 42:1 “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.”

    L stands for LIMITED ATONEMENT – This “Calvin” doctrine propagates the error that Christ’s atoning work on the cross was only for certain individuals.

    SCRIPTURE CLEARLY TEACHES that Christ’s atonement is available to ‘all’ people.

    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

    Luke 2:10 “And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL people.”

    Luke 2:31 “Which thou hast prepared before the face of ALL people;”

    2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

    Revelation 22:17 “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.”

    I stands for IRRESISTIBLE GRACE – This “Calvin” doctrine propagates the error that when God calls a person to salvation, that person cannot resist God’s call.

    SCRIPTURE CLEARLY TEACHES that it is possible to resist the Holy Ghost.

    Matthew 11:20 “Then began he (Jesus) to UPBRAID the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:”

    (UPBRAID – Find fault with, or reproach severely. dictionary.com)

    Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but YOU WERE NOT WILLING! (NKJV)

    Acts 7:51 “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, YE DO ALWAYS RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

    P stands for PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS (also known as “Once Saved Always Saved”) – This “Calvin” doctrine propagates the error that a person can never fall away from the faith.

    SCRIPTURE CLEARLY TEACHES that it is possible to fall away from the faith.

    John 8:31 “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YE CONTINUE in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”

    1 Timothy 1:19 “Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away CONCERNING FAITH HAVE MADE SHIPWRECK:”

    2 Timothy 4:7 “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have KEPT THE FAITH:”

    2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness, than, after they have KNOWN it, to TURN from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is TURNED to his own vomit again; and the sow that WAS WASHED to her wallowing in the mire.”

    * * *

    A Christian sister once said . . . “the Lord draws, but we have the free will to respond, or not to respond, to that drawing.”  True. We are not robots.  Also, with Calvinism, a person is left to wonder if they are one of God’s chosen ones. How can anyone ever have any peace wondering if they are one of God’s elect. Our peace comes from the atoning work of Christ on the cross. There is stability at the cross. There is nothing to wonder about. Jesus said “whosoever will” may freely receive salvation. “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely.” Revelation 22:17 You can have peace and assurance that Christ is the chosen One, and when you believe in Him you are chosen in Him. This leaves the door to salvation open for all people, as God intended it to be, and as the scripture declares.

    Believing truth, and continuing to do so, will give you peace because your assurance is firmly based upon Christ’s finished work of atonement. Understanding Calvinism helped me to understand that the doctrine of “once saved always saved” is a false doctrine. This was something I struggled with for many years. Why did it help me? Because I understood that the root of the “once saved always saved” teaching is Calvinism’s doctrine “irresistible grace.” The two are obviously connected. Error begets more error. As we have seen, it is possible to resist the Holy Ghost, and what a serious thing it is to do so.

    Calvinistic teaching superimposes itself upon Scripture. It is man’s teaching, not God’s. I have written this because I love the Lord, and I love the brethren. False doctrine is harmful, and causes division among God’s people. My prayer is that we, the followers of Jesus Christ, will be guided into all truth. As the scripture says in John 16:13 “. . . when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” [1]

    Do your homework?

    Beware of the pastor / or lay individule who by stealth entices you to believe a lie.

    ATB 🙂

    Sopy
    __

    ref: [1] https://giannina.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/calvinisms-false-doctrine/

  122. Max wrote:

    For folks who talk grace, grace, grace all the time, the New Calvinists are trying to bring God’s people back under the law, instead of life in Christ.

    Remember the TV Tropes page “People’s Republic of Tyranny”:

    The more adjectives about Democracy(TM) there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.

  123. Deb wrote:

    BL wrote:

    Dever is ‘rediscovering’ the same ‘membership covenant’ crap dug up and promulgated by the shepherding movement in the 70s.

    Yep. Too bad those being sucked in have never heard of the shepherding movement.

    “Nine out of ten Fresh New Ideas are really Old Mistakes. But to a generation who wasn’t alive the last time these Old Mistakes were made, they seem like Fresh New Ideas.”
    — G.K.Chesterton (from memory — I would append “What Could Possibly Go Wrong?”)