Are Acts 29 and North Valley Community Church, Phoenix, Endorsing Mark Driscoll’s Return?

“He claims to have prepared his sermon in 2 hours! Not only that, he noted that he did so while watching a Mariners Game on television!” (Quote for those who listened to Driscoll's gospel™ sermon at NVCC.) link

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Real men from the Leadership Collective screen shot

As usual, WenatcheetheHatchet has the goods on all things Mark Driscoll. Last month, we left Mark and Grace Driscoll sunning themselves in Phoenix, Arizona, attempting to escape a warning in which God told both of them that "a trap had been set." Not only is the sun warm in Arizona but so are some Acts 29 churches that apparently are able to ignore the disturbing history of the Driscolls. 

TWW has frequently stated that the Acts 29 network is infused with the DNA of Driscoll. We have been told that Matt Chandler, the head of The Village Church and Acts 29, would bring us a kinder, gentler Christianity. That hope was squashed when the Karen Hinkley story broke, showing that the DNA and reflexes of TVC involve giving a pass to a child porn lover and to discipline his wife who wanted away from a guy who viewed images of children and babies. But, you say, he apologized. Yes he did after he learned that the bloggers had the embarrassing emails and texts sent by the church leaders.The Deebs, not ones to quickly forget, adopted a wait and see attitude which now appears to have been wise. Acts 29 may be getting set to bring back Mark Driscoll. 

The wretched history of Mark Driscoll who called women "penis homes" and conducted demon trials while fending off accusations of abuse from staff members and former church members will be long remembered. Who could forget the well documented instances of plagiarism and the use of church money to help Driscoll get his name on the New York Times Best seller list.

And then, of course, the entire Mars Hill network imploded.

But the implosion of Mars Hill revolved around Driscoll’s leadership, and growing dissent and departure by members of his team.

A group of 21 former elders and pastors brought charges that centered on Driscoll’s personal conduct toward his flock and closest associates.  Nine pastors signed a letter critical of the culture of the church, and one by one were laid off or left. Former members picketed the Mars Hill Church in Bellevue one hot summer Sunday.

An investigation by the church’s board of overseers found that Driscoll was “guilty of arrogance, responding to conflict with a quick temper and harsh speech, and leading the staff in a domineering manner.”  Driscoll resigned as senior pastor on Oct. 15, 2014, and Mars Hill Church announced its dissolution two weeks later.

Driscoll and his family ran away from Seattle, leaving unanswered questions about some financial investments. The only comments that the Driscolls have made is that God warned them to get out of the trap. Dee is banging her head on the table at the incredible ability of the Driscolls to descend into apparent insanity..

Surely no one in their right mind would ask Driscoll to come to their church to teach their members, right? Wrong. Apparently the pastors and leaders of North Valley Community Church and some elders from their sponsoring church, Scottsdale Bible Church thought inviting Driscoll to give a Sunday sermon was a splendid idea.

A TWW mini tutorial on how to assess what you are getting into when you attend a new church.

1. Visit the website and read it-all of it.

North Valley Community Church website has an abundance of information about themselves that should be helpful in helping a newbie to figure out what they are getting into. Always visit the "About Us" and "What We Believe" sections of the church.

Here is what I learned from the section titled *About Us.*

North Valley Community Church is a church plant founded in 2012 by pastor Ryan Rice. 

Our network is both local and national. Locally, Scottsdale Bible Church is a key church partner of North Valley Community Church. In fact, a few of their Elders serve on our Advisory Council and are close friends and mentors. We are also part of a national network with Acts29, Converge, Fellowship Associates and Mosaix.

This is excellent information for the inquiring attendee. Scottsdale Bible Church is huge in the Phoenix area and obviously controls some of the action at North Valley Community Church. Interestingly, NVCC are members of Acts 29, the organization which threw out Driscoll in favor of the gentler Chandler. Or, did they actually get rid of him?  For now, we will not discuss the website of Scottsdale Bible Church except to say that they obviously support, wholeheartedly, what is going on at NVCC.

2. The frequent use of the word *gospel*.

If you are a new reader to TWW, you might not know that your blog queens love the Gospel which is summed up quite nicely in John 3:16. However, the overuse of the word *gospel* today often points to the possible involvement of the Calvinista crowd (aka Calvinists with attitude.)

The word *gospel* has been co-opted and used as an adjective in front of things like gospel™ gender roles. We use *™* to denote that this is a tactic to *prove* that the particular secondary view being presented is truly the gospel and anyone who disagrees with that interpretation is obviously not a believer in the gospel or possibly not even saved.

NVCC even has a section devoted to the gospel in case you didn't pick up on it elsewhere. However, before you can be sure that this word is being co-opted, you must look for other clues on the website.

3. Always, always, always read the small print in the *what we believe* section.

 This type of section can get quite wordy so many people blow it off. Let me show you what I learned from reading this section.

     A. They are complementarian and may share Mark Driscoll's debased views on women.

Only men can serve in leadership. Women are to be submissive to their husbands. Men are the head of the family. Any deviation from this model means the individual is caving into the culture. It is important to understand that this church will not allow for a genuine, conscientious disagreement with these beliefs.

These beliefs may be one of the reasons that this church would want a man like Mark Driscoll to give a sermon. His views on women caused serious conflict even amongst the most conservative of believers. It causes me to wonder if these male only leaders view women in the same way. 

Adam and Eve were made to complement each other in a one-flesh union that establishes the only normative pattern of sexual relations for men and women, such that marriage ultimately serves as a type of the union between Christ and his church.

In God’s wise purposes, men and women are not simply interchangeable, but rather they complement each other in mutually enriching ways. God ordains that they assume distinctive roles which reflect the loving relationship between Christ and the church, the husband exercising headship in a way that displays the caring, sacrificial love of Christ, and the wife submitting to her husband in a way that models the love of the church for her Lord.

In the ministry of the church, both men and women are encouraged to serve Christ and to be developed to their full potential in the manifold ministries of the people of God. The distinctive leadership role within the church given to qualified men is grounded in creation, fall, and redemption and must not be sidelined by appeals to cultural developments.

     B. This church is Reformed in its thinking.

They believe that God chose some people to be saved before eternity. This means that He deliberately did not choose others to be saved. This is another reason that this church may hold up Mark Driscoll as a role model. He is decidedly Reformed and John Piper loves his theology. If you are uncomfortable with this point of view, you may find this church not to your liking.

We believe that from all eternity God determined in grace to save a great multitude of guilty sinners from every tribe and language and people and nation, and to this end foreknew them and chose them. 

by his powerful and mysterious work regenerates spiritually dead sinners, awakening them to repentance and faith, baptizing them into union with the Lord Jesus, such that they are justified before God by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. 

      C. This church believes in church discipline by the local church yet does not define what that means.

Folks, whenever you see the word *discipline* yet it is undefined, be wary, very wary. A church which does not carefully define this term could be a church that decides they can discipline pretty much whatever they darn well please. For new readers, if you think that this is just about disciplining some guy who ditched his family and is shacking up with Marla Maples, think again. This blog exists because we have documented case after case of unjust and bizarre discipline like was seen at The Village Church.

This should serve as a warning. Ask about this before you join. Find out if they make you sign a *covenant* which says you will submit to discipline. TWW does not recommend signing any such forms. It is a legal contract and do not forget that.

This universal church is manifest in local churches of which Christ is the only Head; thus each "local church” is, in fact, the church, the household of God, the assembly of the living God, and the pillar and foundation of the truth. The church is the body of Christ, the apple of his eye, graven on his hands, and he has pledged himself to her forever. The church is distinguished by her gospel message, her sacred ordinances, her discipline, her great mission, and, above all, by her love for God, and by her members’ love for one another and for the world. Crucially, this gospel we cherish has both personal and corporate dimensions, neither of which may properly be overlooked. 

4. Who is in the church network?

This information is quite helpful. Take a look at NVCC's Network page.

National Partner Networks

  • Acts29
  • Converge
  • Fellowship Associates
  • Mosaix

Local Partner Churches

  • Scottsdale Bible Church
  • Redemption Church
  • Desert View Bible Church
  • Sun Valley Community Church

     A. Scottsdale Bible and affiliated churches.

One can logically assume, for example, that Scottsdale Bible Church, some of whose elders serve on NVCC's elder board, are in agreement with the choices the NVCC makes. Also, the related churches on this list probably are also marching lockstep.

     B. Acts 29

Acts 29 drop kicked Driscoll. Or did they? Could it be that they encourage their member churches to invite Driscoll to speak, helping him to regain his almost godlike stature amongst some of the cruder young, restless and Reformed crowd? Remember, Acts 29 is supposedly planting churches. It looks like Driscoll's DNA may continue to reproduce with the quiet blessings of Acts 29.

     C. Fellowship Associates.

This one ya gotta love it. TWW just wrote The Many Associations of ‘Authentic Manhood’ That Surround Fellowship Associates on 12/9/15! They are into the" men gotta be real men" meme. Guess who is associated with them? 

  • Acts 29
  • The Village Church
  • ARC

Guess who speaks for them?

      Matt Chandler: the head of The Village Church and Acts 29

Keep reading a little further in our post and you will see names of former pastors of Mars Hill (Mark Driscoll's former megaministry that imploded) along with a Sovereign Grace pastor and an endorsement of the Council of Biblical™ Manhood and Womanhood.

This crowd endorses the Authentic Manhood movement.

Authentic Manhood is all about setting men up to live lives of truth, passion and purpose. Our resources offer clear and practical Biblical insights on God’s design for manhood that are both refreshing and inspiring. We point men to a gospel-centered vision of life that sets them up to enjoy God’s grace as they pursue the promises of His Word. 

 So, is this just a series of coincidences like some of the gospel™ leaders might claim? I think not. 

     D. Mosaix and Converge

Just more networks involving a number of the same folks. Mosaix and Converge are both church planting networks which we will look at more carefully in the future. All of them are about fundraising and Converge has some ties to certain businesses. That is particularly interesting to the Deebs but more on that in the future. Mosaix even claims to be a "network of networks." 

5. Where is Mark Driscoll in all of this?

Besides hiding out in Phoenix, far away from Seattle protestors and the Seattle media who found Driscoll a source of never ending drama and  post evangelical craziness, Driscoll is speaking at churches and conferences. So who are these people who are inviting Driscoll to speak?

NVCC, which is endorsed by Scottsdale Bible Church elders, invited Driscoll to speak from the pulpit on Sunday, 1/3/16, on the topic of, get this, Overcoming Anxiety. Can you imagine? The guy who ditched his church, plagiarized, play hanky panky with the NYT bestseller list, called women horrible names, held demon trials, and hears God telling him and his wife that "a trap has been set," is the chosen speaker for NVCC. I wonder how much they paid him? Church members should ask.

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It is wonderful what the average person can learn from reading a church website. Let me show you the real Mark Driscoll who was sanctioned by the Acts 29 and Scottsdale Bible Church approved North Valley Community Church. 

I anticipate a few blog posts from the gospel™ boys saying that it is unfair to paint an entire organization over the actions of one. However, these men and organizations are all so intertwined that it would be naive not to note these connections. So, for now, I think we should all keep an eye on the rise of Driscoll and the leaders and networks that support him.

Comments

Are Acts 29 and North Valley Community Church, Phoenix, Endorsing Mark Driscoll’s Return? — 300 Comments

  1. I wish Mark Driscoll had the common decency to just go away. He seems totally oblivious to the ruination he has left in his trail. He seems to fully expect everyone to just forget about it. Meanwhile, more and more people say ‘see, Christianity is a bunch of hypocritical grifters”. People like Driscoll and his ilk are doing immeasurable harm to the Kingdom. It’s really not funny.

  2. Converge used to be called the Swedish Baptist General Conference and then just the Baptist General Conference until 2008. Here in SoCal, they are one of the many non-SBC baptist groups. I certainly hope they aren’t following the SBC down the Calvinista road.

  3. Thanks again for helping me sharpen my danger warning itch. The “gospel” emphasis is catching my eye in numerous places now. It looks like the neo-Calvinists have captured both major study Bibles now (ESV Study Bible and NIV Study Bible). Notice the tag line for the NIV Study Bible – Built on the Truth of Scripture and Centered on the “Gospel” Message (quotes added by me). Rats . . . I really like the maps and illustrations in this study Bible. It really is concerning that the study Bibles have gone this route. Study Bibles can have a tremendous influence (think Scofield Study Bible and dispensationalism).

  4. I wish I’d known about this so I could have gone up there with my NOPE sign. They even had sidewalks at the entrance most people would use and it is in a shopping mall.

    You didn’t mention Redemption Church beyond the name. It’s a church outfit now with nine congregations, including one each in Flagstaff and Tucson (both about 120 miles from Phoenix). I went to the local branch, Redemption Church West Mesa. (By the way, as someone who has lived here nearly 15 years, I think of my neighborhood as Central Mesa. West Mesa is on the other side of downtown.)

    Of course it’s gospelly (TM), that’s the first thing they mention. Other things: They want you to sign on to a membership covenant and you have to submit to an interview! They are Reformed and of course, there are no women mentioned in their leadership. The leadership is Hispanic, which looks like a pander to the neighborhood right around the church. The main leadership, by comparison, is quite white-bread. I’d note that the leader of Redemption West Mesa is NOT mentioned as a part of overall Redemption leadership, while the leaders of Arcadia, Tempe, Gateway and Gilbert are mentioned as the whole leadership.

    This church would absolutely not work for me! For starters, the testosterone would be overwhelming. I also note that their doctrinal statement dwells quite a bit on the relationship between men and women and pretty much asserts male superiority. Of course there would be no place for a woman with no headship. *shrugs* I’ll stay at home on Sundays or I’ll go drink overpriced coffee at Starbucks and talk religion, politics and astronomy with my on-again, off-again Catholic boyfriend. I’m sure that’s much more fun than Redemption Church, any branch, any Sunday.

  5. “2. The frequent use of the word *gospel*.”
    They also have different definitions for words, grace being another one that is often used but seems to have application that is anything but gracious. It would be good to have a compilation for handy reference of stealth terms and their hidden intent.

    pastoral care (pastoral control)
    covering (control)
    love (control)
    discipline (control)
    sinful (not controlled)
    pastor (thirty year old boss)
    elders (thirty year old bosses)
    covenant (contract)
    repentance (saying sorry with fingers crossed)
    church (corporation)

    I could keep going…

  6. roebuck wrote:

    I wish Mark Driscoll had the common decency to just go away.

    Nope. Mark Driscoll absolutely does not have common decency. He doesn’t have a lot of things that someone aspiring to ministry should have. He is deficient in so many areas. And sadly, there are so many churches that lack maturity and discernment to see him for what he is. They are taken in by his fleshly charisma and worldly antics. Much of the church is in a sad, slow decay. I get tired of watching her go down la toilette.

  7. Excellent write-up and study guide!

    To add a little more background, last summer super manly man Darien Bennett gave Mark Driscoll one of his first Arizona speaking gigs at a very trendy Carefree resort at a multi-day conference called Men Coaching Men. Darien is the head of Men’s Ministry for all of Scottsdale Bible Church. Here’s a link (the first comment on that post also gives a lot of background on the situation for those interested) http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/07/09/mark-driscoll-posts-updated-speaking-schedule/

    It’s possible the Scottsdale Bible Elders who are “close friends and mentors” of NVCC include Mark Driscoll fanboy Darien Bennett and other members of his SBC Men’s Ministries.
    .
    When the Darien Bennett gig was first posted I know a few people who contacted Scottsdale Bible Church (SBC) with their concerns. SBC is extremely wealthy and quite conservative and has no wish to court controversy or scandal. What they were told was that SBC had nothing to do with the Mark Driscoll booking. They stated that Darien’s conference was not associated with them. As head of SBC’s Men’s Ministry I don’t quite agree with that statement, but the main point is that they tried to distance themselves from this move after informed persons contacted them with the lengthy list of transgressions of the unreconciled MH pastor.
    .
    I would like to suggest that readers prayerfully consider writing to all those supporting Mark Driscoll, including SBC, and expressing concern to them about their SBC Elders and their Men’s Ministry appearing to support Driscoll’s return to the pulpit. This is deeply troubling as SBC is a highly influential church. If readers do write I would like to suggest that perhaps limiting the comments to Mark Driscoll being disqualified from ministry might be more effective for this task.
    .
    While complementarianism is a good reason for people to reconsider attending NVCC, the main issue here is that Mark Driscoll shouldn’t be teaching anyone after all of his transgressions as a head pastor. These aren’t just sins. These were vile acts committed in his capacity as a senior pastor. Almost 40 MH elders filed complaints against him. That is a shocking number. The church planting organization he founded, Acts 29, fired him. SBC needs to understand that no church, whatever their doctrine, should be putting that man on a pulpit again after all he has done to abuse his spiritual authority and all the believers that he has traumatized and separated from the Body of Christ.
    .
    Would SBC knowingly support, even indirectly, putting such a man back in a position of spiritual authority if they had the facts laid out before them? Maybe it’s time to get them on the record? Perhaps Mirele, as a Phoenician, could write open letters to the local papers?
    .
    I just spoke with a couple of Jimmy Evans’ supporters a week ago. I asked them why they would continue supporting him and buying his products knowing their money would be helping to pay for planting a church for such a man as Mark Driscoll. They had never heard of Mark Driscoll before in their life. They knew nothing of the scandals. They knew nothing of the misdeeds and the abuse. They also didn’t know Jimmy was his new church director. They were horrified to hear it and hurt that Jimmy would be propping such a man up. They said they had family back at Jimmy’s home church in the Amarillo area (not the main campus) and would be contacting them as they were now fearful that TFC might have a future link to Mark Driscoll. Fully informed – they now have no wish to go to his upcoming XO Marriage Conference as this will help fund the Driscoll plant.
    .
    Churches and people all across America and the world (including Hillsong and Gateway who films and broadcasts the massive Valentine’s Day Conference coming up in one month all over the globe) pay millions for Jimmy Evans’ XO Marriage Conferences and related materials. Jimmy also teaches at his own private pastor school here in Southlake, TX. If people stop funding the people who are funding Mark Driscoll then he won’t have a platform from which to continue hurting more people.
    .
    It is possible and maybe even probable that many people at TVCC and SBC do not know who and what Mark Driscoll is. I have found that even among those that have heard of Driscoll before and have even heard his sermons, very few know how many terrible things he has done. None of the people I have spoken too will ever support him again after they hear about his wicked past actions. No one suggests that he and his family shouldn’t attend church. But the newly informed think that the safety and spiritual well being of the flock must come first when it comes to putting him back on the pulpit.
    .
    I think informing the churches propping Driscoll up must come first. If you agree, please read the above link and the first comment that summarizes many of Driscoll’s transgressions. These transgressions have also been covered very well here at TWW and you can find them if you type the word “Driscoll” in the “search TWW” box. Then consider writing to:
    Scottsdale Bible Church (reminding them of their connections supporting Driscoll via both Darien Bennett and the elders at TVCC) info@scottsdalebible.com
    NVCC at info@northvalleychurch.org
    Trinty Fellowship Church (Ps Jimmy Evans’ home church in Amarillo – Jimmy is Mark Driscoll’s new church’s director) http://www.tfc.org/contact#
    Gateway Church where Jimmy Evans is the Lead Apostolic Elder and Senior Pastor Robert Morris is a Mark Driscoll supporter info@gatewaypeople.com
    Marriage Today (Jimmy Evans television program and conference products. This is where he makes his millions that will help fund Driscoll) http://www.marriagetoday.com/contact/contact-information/
    Darien Bennett (the man giving Mark a platform in AZ) info@mencoachingmen.org

    If you search for “Marriage Today” or “XO Marriage Conference” or “Marriage Enrich” on Facebook, Twitter, Google or other sites, you can also find the names of other churches giving a large amount of tithe money to Jimmy for his conferences. There is speculation that Mark and his wife may teach at some of the conferences in the future using the material from their book Real Marriage. No church should be funding this with church funds.
    .
    SBC is a large church with some very good people in it that do not want their reputation sullied.
    TFC in Amarillo has some wonderful members who do not know what they are indirectly supporting if Jimmy goes through with this. This is especially true if Jimmy has Driscoll’s new church join TFC’s church affiliation called TFAC instead of ARC. That would taint the TFC brand forever. People from the Texas panhandle are wonderful folks. I am certain they don’t know all the facts.
    .
    These corporations are all run by humans and they all require the voluntary support and contributions of other humans to thrive. Even if Darien, Robert Morris and Jimmy Evans are all immovable on this subject, others in their organizations, like the people I spoke to, may not be so eager to support a person who has abused their spiritual authority to hurt their own flock, their subordinate pastors, their elders and the name of Christendom as much as Mark Driscoll has.
    .
    Supporting a spiritually abusive man at the expense of more wounded sheep serves no purpose. It’s possible that much of what is happening is happening out of ignorance and not out of malice, pride or greed. Even Darien may not know about all the things Mark has done.

    Those of us who could stomach Mark’s comeback speech at Gateway understand what a powerful story teller and manipulator Driscoll is. In less than ten minutes he convinced 4,000 pastors that HE was the real victim with weepy tales of his children being nearly stoned to death while helicopters representing death from above hovered over his humble ($1.6M) home while blasting Flight of the Valkyries as his underage son creates his own home-made Kevlar clothing like all children do the first time they hear a helicopter overhead. And of course all those Woodway villagers with their designer pitchforks and torches storming his gated community. I almost shed a tiny tear myself. He is that good at this.
    .
    But many of us have stories about what it is like to be on the receiving end of spiritual abuse. Maybe that’s what could be conveyed to the people making the decisions to support this man. This is one way we can help be salt and light and hopefully help prevent Mark Driscoll from abusing more sheep.

  8. I feel so depressed. like civilization is being overtaken by a cadre of smiley men with an evil, self-serving agenda, and hordes of their ignorant minions. what is honest and decent, real and genuine is giving way to their franchises selling plastic food with plastic smiles.

  9. Nancy2 wrote:

    Does this mean Driscoll isn’t going down the Charismatic egalitarian road?

    No. He definitely is going Pentecostal. His connection to NVCC seems to be through the head of Scottsdale Bible’s Men’s Ministry, Darien Bennett. Darien hired him for his first big AZ multi-day gig (see above post). Bennett is a man’s man who was too injured to play in the NFL so he led a mean-spirited, abusive life. By his own admission he is a black belt who used to be a ruthless scoundrel who “sought significance in material possessions, sexual immoralities, wholesale drinking and brawling. He was divorced, angry and spiraling out of control. If God had not sent a man to come alongside (him) at the time (he was) sure (he) would have ended up killing someone.”
    .
    Darien is the guy who created the As Iron Sharpens Iron Men’s Bible Study which claims to be “one of the largest men’s ministry weekly Bible studies in the United States…and with good reason! Led by Pastor Darien Bennett, this group isn’t for the guy who wants his life sugar-coated. Darien calls these guys to be REAL men of Jesus, not ‘bed-wetters’ or ‘Ding-Dongs’. Living as a real man of Jesus IS Living Life 180, because what our culture teaches men is often 180 degrees different than what the Bible teaches about being a Real Man.”
    http://markandjacki.com/mark-at-aisi-mens-ministry-group/
    .
    Darien also uses the ratchet/gangsta spelling of pastor “Paster” in his bio on his website which is singularly immature for a man in his 60’s. His signature move is using abusive speech to describe men who are sensitive towards women.

    Darien is either a disciple of Driscoll or a clone. It’s easy to see why he would jump at the opportunity to put his hero back unto the pulpit. They both preach the identical message. Those are just paying gigs from like-minded non-bed-wetters.
    .
    But it is Jimmy Evans who is planting Driscoll’s new church. Jimmy is a hard core Pentecostal and the last few days Jimmy’s other big plant, Gateway, has gone full blown Pentecostal (they were previously more quiet Charismatic). The next month and half is being spent on educating Gateway members in the way of all things Pentecostal. Expect other megas to follow suit.
    .
    Yesterday Gateway brought former Church of Foursquare President Jack Hayford in to teach everyone the importance of and how to speak in tongues. Tonight was the hyper-Pentecostal Screamin’ Sammy Rodriguez who Robert Morris introduced by stating “God’s hand is on this man as a PROPHET for our Nation and to our generation”. Screamin’ Sammy declared that everyone in attendance will see no kind of failure in 2016 but only wild success in everything – health, relationships and wealth here on earth – just like the Bible says. Why? well, he didn’t get that far. He was too busy tearing his stage props apart like a Puerto Rican Gallagher.
    .
    Tomorrow is Hillsong’s Christine Caine who according to Robert Morris will be “shucking the corn for the men” (what?) and Ravi Zacharias will no doubt be saying something heretical on Wednesday. Jimmy Evans is using his first week of 2016 at the ZION Conference at his church TFC in Amarillo to host Glory of Zion’s Chuck Pierce on Sunday, John Gray from Lakewood on Monday, then Mark Driscoll tomorrow with TFC’s Jimmy Witcher & Jimmy Evans wrapping up on Wednesday.
    .
    This is Mark Driscoll’s new tribe! This is the new posse that he has decided to ride with. He has said as much. It makes many of his past sermons terribly inconvenient, like this one where he rants about how heretical the book The Shack is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1q29ObDO5M His new tribe LOVES The Shack – so Mark has to love The Shack too – Praise Elouisia!
    .
    He must also now enforce the Christian tithe and Grace will get to become his co-pastor. Above all he must work on the hair, his clothes and his hand gestures. He is already working on his television persona. His last video was terribly forced as he tried to come off as the funny, friendly YouTuber with the “world’s craziest dog” in the background. He references the dog three times so he will seem like a great, regular guy who loves hangin’ at the dog park “chuckin’ things” as opposed to a man who giddily runs people over in buses with great zeal. Daystar, TBN and Grace in pink hair saying “Praise Be!” cannot be far off.

  10. @ Nancy2:
    That is what it looks like except the Egal part. That seems to be more nuanced as in acknowledging that women are good for more than homes for male sexual appendages. Sigh.

    But obviously not out of conviction. :o) He comes off more like a charlatan looking for the next group of suckers to bilk.

  11. Amen… That is blogs like this are so important.

    Lydia wrote:

    @ elastigirl:
    Civilization cannot be overtaken by such charlatans without the masses allowing it. That is the part that bothers me the most.

    Lydia wrote:

    @ elastigirl:
    Civilization cannot be overtaken by such charlatans without the masses allowing it. That is the part that bothers me the most.

  12. EricL wrote:

    Converge used to be called the Swedish Baptist General Conference and then just the Baptist General Conference until 2008. Here in SoCal, they are one of the many non-SBC baptist groups. I certainly hope they aren’t following the SBC down the Calvinista road.

    I do not know whether Converge is following the Calvinista path, but something is not quite right with their mission. All I know is that I supported a one-time mission through them 5 years ago, and have not stopped receiving solicitations for money from Converge since.

  13. Bill M wrote:

    They also have different definitions for words, grace being another one that is often used but seems to have application that is anything but gracious. It would be good to have a compilation for handy reference of stealth terms and their hidden intent.

    pastoral care (pastoral control)
    covering (control)
    love (control)
    discipline (control)
    sinful (not controlled)
    pastor (thirty year old boss)
    elders (thirty year old bosses)
    covenant (contract)
    repentance (saying sorry with fingers crossed)
    church (corporation)

    My Dear Wormwood,
    I refer you to my previous epistle on Semantics; specifically, the redefinition of words into their “diabolical meanings”.
    Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
    Screwtape

  14. LT wrote:

    This is Mark Driscoll’s new tribe! This is the new posse that he has decided to ride with. He has said as much. It makes many of his past sermons terribly inconvenient…

    As of now, those doubleplusunsermons Never Existed.

  15. LT wrote:

    Those of us who could stomach Mark’s comeback speech at Gateway understand what a powerful story teller and manipulator Driscoll is. In less than ten minutes he convinced 4,000 pastors that HE was the real victim with weepy tales of his children being nearly stoned to death while helicopters representing death from above hovered over his humble ($1.6M) home while blasting Flight of the Valkyries as his underage son creates his own home-made Kevlar clothing like all children do the first time they hear a helicopter overhead. And of course all those Woodway villagers with their designer pitchforks and torches storming his gated community.

    “Under cover of Heaven’s Gate
    I MANIPULATE
    — Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”

  16. P.S. Isn’t the most common characteristic of a Sociopath the ability to shift the blame and play the Poor Poor Innocent Victim?

    It’s why Sociopaths always WIN WIN WIN.
    ALWAYS.

  17. LT wrote:

    [Darien’s] signature move is using abusive speech to describe men who are sensitive towards women

    What … !?
    Is there something wrong with being sensitive toward women?
    Sorry, I just can’t get this to make any sense at all! Do you have any examples?

  18. Chemie wrote:

    All I know is that I supported a one-time mission through them 5 years ago, and have not stopped receiving solicitations for money from Converge since.

    The business aspect of Converge is interesting. Go to this link and look at the partnerships.
    http://www.convergesw.org/links
    As I read the website, it seemed to me that this group emphasizes getting money so your solicitations make sense. I really need to spend some time trying to understand all of these links.

  19. Nancy2 wrote:

    Does this mean Driscoll isn’t going down the Charismatic egalitarian road?

    He will never go down the egalitarian road. However, it is evident that he has always had a charismatic flair. The demon trials, the appearance with Robert Morris, the games he played at the Strange Fire conference, etc. He can get away with far more if he aligns with some of these groups.My guess is that Driscoll will continue to “see things.”

  20. mirele wrote:

    I wish I’d known about this so I could have gone up there with my NOPE sign. They even had sidewalks at the entrance most people would use and it is in a shopping mall.

    I cannot wait to meet you one of these days.

  21. @ Former Fundy:
    I always have liked the NIV Study Bible. Darn-it is being taken over since it is obvious we have not been able to figure out the Gospel on our own by actually reading the Bible.

  22. @ EricL:
    I’m a member of a Converge church. There’s nothing sinister about the denomination. John Piper has been associated with it, but the denomination also includes Arminians, egalitarians, etc. I don’t know the details, but Piper apparently felt that Converge’s Bethel University and Seminary weren’t good enough, so he started his own degree-granting institution. Another prominent Converge pastor, Leith Anderson, has led the National Association of Evangelicals and seems pretty mainstream.

  23. Quick update for our readers

    Along with my daughter Abby, I leave on Thursday for Cape Cod to bring my mother in law, her car, some clothes and her pug dog back to our home for the foreseeable future. We will drive all day on Sunday to get back. She begins chemo on Tuesday.

    Deb will do the posts on Friday and Monday. The wifi is great at Duke so expect me to be doing lots of blogging from there. I may call them “Dispatches From Duke.”

  24. dee wrote:

    He will never go down the egalitarian road. However, it is evident that he has always had a charismatic flair. The demon trials, the appearance with Robert Morris, the games he played at the Strange Fire conference, etc. He can get away with far more if he aligns with some of these groups.My guess is that Driscoll will continue to “see things.”

    The Master of Mighty Magick, the Illuminatus with Speshul Sekrit Knowledge (Occult Gnosis) revealed to him though his Pornovisions. Even Sex Magick with the ends of the alimentary canal.

    This guy’s another Elron Hubbard with a different coat of paint.

  25. dee wrote:

    @ Former Fundy:
    I always have liked the NIV Study Bible. Darn-it is being taken over since it is obvious we have not been able to figure out the Gospel on our own by actually reading the Bible.

    The Nones are looking better and better every day.

  26. LT wrote:

    Darien is the guy who created the As Iron Sharpens Iron Men’s Bible Study

    Voddie Baucham was one of their guess speakers at their conferences. He’s worse than Driscoll. Yes, there is such a thing.

  27. @ dee:
    Be careful and safe travels to you.
    We have driven to Maine, via Knoxville, TN and up through VA, WV, PA, NY, CT, MA and NH. I did not enjoy driving through NY, CT, and MA! Crazy drivers and bad traffic!

  28. If I search for “redemption groups” from my location in Dallas, I get three Acts 29 churches here. Those are just the ones who will publicize that they do that. They still love Driscollism and what Mars Hill Church did with its members, they’re just not supposed to announce it.

  29. So, Thomas Nelson’s 19-page book contract with Mark and Grace Driscoll for *Real Marriage* got posted late yesterday by Wenatchee the Hatchet. It looks like it will help answer some of the questions I had almost two full years ago about royalties and how to “follow the money” trail. I’ll have to keep working through the details on that and see what emerges …

    Meanwhile, I had an unexpected thought during my first skimming through of the document, and thinking about what happened with that book and thereafter with Mars Hill Church. It cost Nelson $400,00. Look what it cost the Body of Christ.

    I’m not impressed with who or what the responsible parties at Thomas Nelson publishing discern as helpful or healthy for the Body of Christ. I believe they hold some major culpability for fueling outright harm to the Church by the Driscolls, as has been documented so many places on the web. So, what will this company do to make things right and deserve our trust … ?

    http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2016/01/an-agreement-from-february-28-2011.html

  30. LT wrote:

    SBC needs to understand that no church, whatever their doctrine, should be putting that man on a pulpit again after all he has done to abuse his spiritual authority and all the believers that he has traumatized and separated from the Body of Christ.

    Agreed – Good Lord, this man should not be given a ministry platform again! But SBC has demonstrated in recent years that they don’t have any wisdom at the executive level in this regard. When Acts 29 infiltrated SBC ranks years ago (many SBC church plants hold dual affiliation with A29), hardly a word was said about it (except among grassroot radicals, like myself) … the SBC big dogs kept pointing to the success of Driscoll’s church-planting endeavors as “the” model to put more SBC churches on the map. As a result of the Calvinization of the SBC (spearheaded by Al Mohler), most SBC denominational entities are now controlled by New Calvinist leaders – many have endorsed Driscoll in the past and shared the same conference platform with him. Despite his past sins, they still recognize his prominence in the reformed movement; they ain’t going to do or say anything negative to hinder his influence over young church planters in SBC. Added to that madness, is the power of local church autonomy in the SBC to do just pretty much anything you want to as long as it somehow conforms to SBC’s Baptist Faith & Message (which was revised in 2000 to accommodate Calvinist belief & practice – Mohler was on the revision team). You can still stay SBC even if you have twist and squirm your belief and practice to make it fit the terms and conditions of BFM. Tack on the inability of young pastors to discern truth from error and you have the set-up for a Driscoll unrepentant comeback, as at NVCC on Sunday … with no slap on the hand from any SBC higher-uppers. And the beat goes on …

  31. Wow, these groups are very interconnected, to say the least. Keeping up with who is related to whom requires the skills of a forensic accountant. (I wonder if their balance sheets are as interconnected, which would imply many are shell organizations whose sole purpose is to deflect attention and serve as tax shelters for other organizations.)

    To quote the Doctor in the latest Christmas special, “The Husbands of River Song”:

    I think I’m going to need a bigger flow chart.

  32. Dee writes “… the overuse of the word *gospel* today often points to the possible involvement of the Calvinista crowd …”

    Exactly! New Calvinists are “gospel-centered” everything … they even refer to themselves as “Christ-followers”. Although, if you follow their ministries, you will never hear them preach the Gospel (the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth) … and seldom do they raise the name of Jesus above all names! Knowing that the rest of Christendom is tracking them in this regard, they are sure to drop “gospel” and “Jesus” when they get opportunity just to keep folks off their trail. They may be Christ-followers, but are they Believers? They may preach a gospel, but is it another gospel? Millions of Southern Baptists in the pew are being taken for a ride, without realizing they got on the train … easy pickins’ for New Calvinism.

  33. “He is decidedly Reformed and John Piper loves his theology.”

    Does anybody know if this is still true of Piper?

    As far as being reformed, all the confessional reformed I’ve ever heard of are cessationist. If Mark goes full-on pentecostal, he will have a hard time keeping even pseudoreformed credentials.

    Lydia said:

    “Civilization cannot be overtaken by such charlatans without the masses allowing it. That is the part that bothers me the most.”

    Years ago I saw a Far Side cartoon featuring a bunch of cattle inside a pen. Most of the cows were looking happy and clueless, except for one cow with an oversized brain. I can’t remember the exact caption, but it was clear that she was the only one worried about what the farmer was up to. Sometimes I feel like one of the few such (middle aged) beings in the midst of millions of Christians, though not necessarily because I’m smarter than anyone else. I can think of a number of mistakes and misjudgements from my younger years as a believer, so some of this is just life experience. Yet, look at the primary demographics catered to by TBN.

  34. Max wrote:

    Dee writes “… the overuse of the word *gospel* today often points to the possible involvement of the Calvinista crowd …”
    Exactly! New Calvinists are “gospel-centered” everything …

    Until “Gospel” becomes the next “Smurf” or “Marclar”.

  35. Stan wrote:

    If I search for “redemption groups” from my location in Dallas, I get three Acts 29 churches here. Those are just the ones who will publicize that they do that. They still love Driscollism and what Mars Hill Church did with its members, they’re just not supposed to announce it.

    Know-Nothings.
    When asked about their affiliation, they respond “I Know Nothing”.

  36. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Meanwhile, I had an unexpected thought during my first skimming through of the document, and thinking about what happened with that book and thereafter with Mars Hill Church. It cost Nelson $400,00. Look what it cost the Body of Christ.

    Does that include the $210k paid to Result Source to juice it onto the NYT Best-Seller List?

    (Before their website Never Existed, they had a special section for juicing Christian books, which implies Bee Jay wasn’t the only one getting juiced.)

  37. Real men from the Leadership Collective screen shot

    Because you’re not a Real Man unless you’ve got your M4 ***** Extender and Threat Display.(edited)

  38. @ Ken:
    There are a few comments at the ending of the “Compelling” discussion that I hope you have seen.

  39. Stan wrote:

    If I search for “redemption groups” from my location in Dallas, I get three Acts 29 churches here. Those are just the ones who will publicize that they do that. They still love Driscollism and what Mars Hill Church did with its members, they’re just not supposed to announce it.

    There are seven “official” Acts 29 churches in the Phoenix area. But, I suspect that there are many more sympathetic to Acts 29; modeling their ministries after it, but not holding A29 affiliation to disguise their belief and practice – which is decidedly New Calvinism.

    For all you Acts 29 trackers out there, you can locate the young whippersnappers in your area at http://www.acts29.com/find-churches/. But, as I note above, they may already be camping out incognito at a church near you!

  40. From your blog:
    “Our network is both local and national. Locally, Scottsdale Bible Church is a key church partner of North Valley Community Church. In fact, a few of their Elders serve on our Advisory Council and are close friends and mentors. We are also part of a national network with Acts29, Converge, Fellowship Associates and Mosaix.”

    Do you realize Scottsdale Bible church is Wayne Grudem’s home church?

    Quote from Grudem:
    “And in varying degrees (in different churches) non-members are encouraged to minister to others in the church – they can become active members of home fellowship groups (and in some churches, such as my own Scottsdale Bible Church, they can lead such groups).”
    Source: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/wayne-grudems-response-to-piper

    And on another note, I am no fan of Grudem, but was saddened to hear the following:
    “Grudem announced having been diagnosed with Parkinson’s Disease on December 22, 2015.”
    Source – Wikipedia.

  41. @ NJ:
    I remember that cartoon! I used it a few times in Training when talking about groupthink.

    The question I had for myself eventually is why I gave church a pass on groupthink for so long. Duh

  42. Burwell Stark wrote:

    Wow, these groups are very interconnected, to say the least. Keeping up with who is related to whom requires the skills of a forensic accountant.

    Hee hee. I used to liken the connections to the intermarriages of old European Royals to build strong alliances. At some point it is just inbreeding and the worst traits become prominent.

  43. Lydia wrote:

    Hee hee. I used to liken the connections to the intermarriages of old European Royals to build strong alliances. At some point it is just inbreeding and the worst traits become prominent.

    Remember the Spanish Hapsburgs?

    Only the Egyptian Pharaohs had family trees with less forking.

    Last Spanish Hapsburg king died without heir, kicking off the War of Spanish Succession — not only was he sterile, he was also mentally retarded and his Hapsburg Jaw was so extreme he was unable to close his mouth or chew his food.

    But his Hapsburg Bloodline was PURE!

  44. @ Lydia:

    “I remember that cartoon! I used it a few times in Training when talking about groupthink.

    The question I had for myself eventually is why I gave church a pass on groupthink for so long.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    did you conduct training groups for pastors/church staff? how did you use the groupthink cartoon?

  45. Update – It’s been 6 days now since my foot surgery. I honestly didn’t expect it to hurt this bad, and neither did my doctor. It just took him a lot more time to remove the old plate in my left foot. I was able to go off the high powered drug on Saturday. I am still on vicodin, the high one. It will probably be several more weeks before I am totally feeling better. I usually think to myself ahead of surgeries, that if I can just get thru the first 3 days, the surgical pain is over. I didn’t even think that this time. Just left it in God’s hands. I so appreciate the prayers of my friends here. They were felt believe me.

  46. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    And on another note, I am no fan of Grudem, but was saddened to hear the following:
    “Grudem announced having been diagnosed with Parkinson’s Disease on December 22, 2015.”
    Source – Wikipedia.

    Sorry to hear that as well.

  47. Dee, I am with you on Mirele. I, also, would like to meet her one day.

    LT, great information.

    I am so glad the Driscoll is headed in the Pentecostal direction. Fits his claim to be able to see the sexual thoughts of others so well.

    This fits a familiar pattern for those of you who can go back aways – tough talking, doctrinally specific and usually sort of anti-Pentecostal guys who have personal, moral or other ministry failings, go in the direction of Pentecostalism often. It permits them to claim a “second blessing” that has now really energized them, whereas before, they were too doctrinal, too stiff, resisting the Holy Spirit, and that is what caused their downfall. But now they are open to the Spirit, and redeemed from their former failings.

    Here is a short list of guys who followed this pattern:

    James Robison. I heard this guy in 1979 stumping for Reagan. He was one of the people who was behind the founding of the Moral Majority. He was big in SBC circles and evangelism circles. A few years later, he shows up with his wife on TV in charismatic like thing. Charismatics are really into that “co-pastor”, husband and wife thing. That has to be the weirdest pastoral leadership model out there.

    John Osteen – Joel Osteen’s father was an SBC pastor in the Houston, TX. My understanding is that he had a moral failing, left the SBC, and started his own church – a charismatic church. Joel eventually took over the family business, but by the time he went to school, he was already in the charismatic fold.

    Jim Bakker – OK, he started out as Assemblies of God, but he morphed even further, even after this financial and sexual scandals.

    A guy here locally (don’t want to use his name). Goofed up, big scandal – morphed right into the charismatic world and kept on going.

    In years gone by, and still today to a much more limited extent, many churches were affiliated with denominations which had, if not actual levers of control, stronger pastoral referral and fellowships that would get a guy labeled and keep him out of significant pulpits.

    I believe that the movie The Apostle, with Robert Duvall, portrays the situation in charismatic churches very well.

    Also, if you have not seen the movie “Borat: Cultural Learnings of America Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan”, I recommend it for the scene in which Borat becomes filled with Holy Spirit at a Pentecostal Church, and the people, including a U.S. Congressman, I believe, buy the entire thing.

    There is a current in Pentecostalism that permits a Wild West mentality, where there are no controls, there is a lot of credence vested in the spiritual leaders because God is speaking directly to them, the people are often very uneducated, and there is often a greater than normal suspension of critical faculties because this is seen as being antithetical to the Spirit and religious belief.

    Other fellowships and networks have these characteristics, as well, but Pentecostalism has this stuff in abundance.

    So, it’s no surprise that Driscoll would morph over there.

    What would really be interesting would be if Driscoll because a liberal – went to Harvard Divinity School, and became a contributor on ABC or NPR. But that would be too hard.

  48. Lydia wrote:

    Grudems son worked for Driscoll.

    I didn’t realize that. There are so many in the Neo-Cal movement that are interconnected, and then there is all the nepotism.

  49. @ Anonymous:

    “…Pentecostalism…. the people are often very uneducated”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    you know this based on what?

  50. elastigirl wrote:

    civilization is being overtaken by a cadre of smiley men with an evil, self-serving agenda

    You notice the smiley faces also, a smile is disarming. At least your run of the mill thugs have the decency to take on stern appearance.

  51. Dave wrote:

    LT wrote:
    [Darien’s] signature move is using abusive speech to describe men who are sensitive towards women
    What … !?
    Is there something wrong with being sensitive toward women?
    Sorry, I just can’t get this to make any sense at all! Do you have any examples?

    Certainly not! Darien uses the terms “bed-wetters” and “Ding-dongs” to refer to the “weak men” who let women push them around. I don’t have time to go back through his podcasts for more examples, but those two are in his bio. I listened to some podcasts when it was first posted that Darien would be hiring Driscoll. It sounded like the William Wallace II stuff. Men need to take control and women need to shut up, please their men and let the men lead.

    It’s misogyny with proof texting. Accepting women as equals and partners is not weak, it is confident, intelligent and strong. The teachings coming from Darien and Driscoll are born out of insecurity, which is weak. The bigger question is why are men and women attracted to this kind of teaching? Darien and Driscoll had large audiences by basically yelling at men that they need to quit being namby pambies. It’s part of the “Spiritual Fatherhood” movement.

    Here’s a link http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2015/12/16/remembering-the-prophecy-about-mark-driscolls-new-church-and-daddy-issues/ with an audio file of a speech Driscoll gave on 9-3-15 to a group of Charismatic/Pentecostals (C/P) pastors at the Living Streams Grace Association Luncheon in Phoenix. Driscoll speaks about his new found love for the C/P Tribe and how he has now moved on to become a Spiritual Father to other pastors.
    .
    His new Spiritual Father role allows him to retain his old Acts 29 sentiments, but with a new Pentecostal twist. C/P’s ordain women very easily and with no formal training in order to appear egalitarian. It’s also a way to channel more money to the families and cronies at the top. But how many of the really big C/P churches have women elders? How many have female Senior Pastors? How many allow women to give the weekend sermon on something other than a special occasion? Almost none. It’s not true equality.
    .
    Giving Grace a title and a paycheck and allowing the Women’s Ministry leaders to call themselves pastors isn’t much of a concession. The C/P elders I’ve seen think of it as giving the little lady something to do so they’ll quit spending money and nagging. Plus it channels more tithe money to the big mucks. I think it’s something Mark can live with because women won’t really be telling him what to do. They’ll be mostly overseeing children’s ministry, singing on the worship team and planning their Comedy Nights and Bible cruises.

  52. Here are some characteristics of real men:

    Strong enough to face criticism, especially when it is due to their own failures.

    Strong enough to admit wrongdoing – clearly, and ask for forgiveness.

    Confident enough not to need to be out front all of the time, but willing to be out front if real danger is involved – not as a preening peacock.

    Strong enough to endure unhappy times, even a life that does not promise great things.

    Willing to give up privilege and position to allow others to get the glory.

    Willing to take a truly unpopular stand that is right, even at great personal cost.

    Here are some acts/men whom I consider to be strong, real manly actions or real men:

    Alexander Solzhinitzen

    Richard Wurmbrand

    The early missionaries of the modern missions movement – William Carey, David Livingston, Adoniram Judson etc. I could go on here.

    Audie Murphy

    Albert Einstein

    Charles Spurgeon

    James P. Boyce

    Paul

    Stephen

    All of the twelve, save Judas

    The elderly gentleman who spoke before me when I was teaching Sunday School while visiting my grandmother’s church. I learned after the class that he was the sole caretaker for his elderly, ailing wife, who was debilitated by illness and no longer knew him. When my grandmother told me this, I realized that he should have taught the class.

    People who suffered, and those who still do, under repressive, murderous regimes, while trying to protect their families from harm. We don’t know most of their names.

    People who live with debilitating physical and mental illness, but get up every day and try to make the most of it, instead of seeking to end their miserable lives.

    People who by lack of natural gifting or circumstances play humble roles in life. Maybe they have a learning disability or maybe they were born into extreme poverty that limited their opportunities permanently, but they are glad to serve others and with the gifts that God gave them.

    I could go on.

    But the point for me is that most modern speakers, preachers, teachers and all the things they say about being a real man just don’t seem to make it in this list. Sure, physical bravery is included. But most of the stuff that is talked about in these seminars etc. doesn’t cut it.

    A great test of physical bravery would be for any of these guys to train and get in the ring, in public, and participate in one boxing match or one MMA competition, or lace up their running shoes and do one marathon. That would at least measure their physical bravery, which is one small aspect of it.

    Somehow I can’t see Driscoll ever being willing to be watched as a fighter etc. in a fair fight. He would pay the other guy, and have the thing rigged from the beginning.

    And as we know – as stated above, physical bravery is only one small aspect of strength.

  53. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Anonymous:

    “…Pentecostalism…. the people are often very uneducated”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    you know this based on what?

    Cj’s lack of education did not seem to bother the “scholar” Mohler.

  54. Mark Driscoll is to Christianity what a fly strip is to a picnic. He serves a purpose, though not the purpose some think.

  55. Elastigirl:

    I could give you a pretty good list of things, but that would just take us further into the descent of argumentation.

    Why don’t you consider what markers or accomplishments you would look for in a population, generally, to determine whether the group is made up of educated people.

    Just do that as an exercise yourself. No need to post here.

    After doing that if you want to argue that Pentecostals are an educated lot, I would be glad to hear your reasons.

    Well, let’s go at it this way.

  56. Lydia:

    Mohler’s and Dever’s hooking up with Mahaney, as you know, is an extreme disappointment to me.

    There is no good explanation for it.

    But one thing I am sure off, it is another example of Pentecostals educational levels. Mahaney has said Mohler is the smartest man in the universe (or something along that line).

    I do not ever expect Mohler or Dever to ever, in any universe, in any time, to exclaim that Mahaney is the smartest man they have ever met.

    Can you imagine?

  57. @ Anonymous:
    The YRR are considered educated by many because they went to seminary.. I would not call it an education but an indoctrination.

  58. Anonymous wrote:

    I do not ever expect Mohler or Dever to ever, in any universe, in any time, to exclaim that Mahaney is the smartest man they have ever met.

    Can you imagine?

    So what exactly did they see in him to not only partner with him but defend and promote him after all the scandals?

  59. Lydia:

    Of course.

    But the topic here is the “Real Man” type talks that are given in certain circles. Hence, my examples were men.

    When we have a “Women can be heroes, too” post, I will promise to participate with great enthusiasm!

  60. Lydia:

    Well, it is a 3 year degree, with classes, professors, papers, reading etc. And it is accredited by ATS and SACS (I think?).

    I am not claiming it’s Harvard (and it is not supposed to be), but it is formal education, and I applaud anyone who is willing to spend the money and time to do that.

    Lest Elastigirl thinks I am only down on Pentecostals for their lack of education, Baptists are not known as the educated elite.

    However, the SBC alone has 6 post graduate, accredited seminaries, and educate 1/4 of all ministers training in seminaries.

    Also, Baptists in the U.S. formed a bunch of colleges and seminaries in their history in the U.S., too numerous to mention, the first being Brown, and including Andover, Newton, Colgate, the University of Chicago, Richmond, Georgetown, Wake Forest, Furman, Stetson, Mercer, Samford, Baylor etc. The Baptist colleges are really too numerous to mention.

    Baptists were never a wealthy group, but they did sacrifice a lot of treasure for the cause of education.

    I am constantly arguing for the need for Baptist to become more, not less, educated. It is a struggle for the same tendencies I noted in Pentecostalism also exist in the Baptist fold.

  61. Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher UNITED STATES

  62. Mara wrote:

    Voddie Baucham was one of their guess speakers at their conferences. He’s worse than Driscoll. Yes, there is such a thing.

    Yep, he’s full-fledge Quiverfull/ Patriarchy/Gothard like the Duggars.

  63. Anonymous wrote:

    I am constantly arguing for the need for Baptist to become more, not less, educated. It is a struggle for the same tendencies I noted in Pentecostalism also exist in the Baptist fold.

    Well, you might start with advocating more open debate on doctrine at SBTS. It is now ground zero for Calvinistic indoctrination. Although they won’t admit just how singular they are.

    It once allowed for differing views to be discussed and debated. But that changed with the CR and even worse with Mohler.

    Real education involves discussing and debating concepts, understandings, etc. It is about learning how to think. Not just what to believe.

  64. @ EricL:

    The Baptist General Conference is an interesting one. I had a friend that was absolutely amazed that John Piper’s Bethlehem Baptist and Greg Boyd’s Woodland Hills was part of the same denomination – Baptist General Conference. Last I heard Greg Boyd was taking Woodland Hills in the direction of the Mennonite.

  65. NJ wrote:

    Years ago I saw a Far Side cartoon featuring a bunch of cattle inside a pen. Most of the cows were looking happy and clueless, except for one cow with an oversized brain. I can’t remember the exact caption, but it was clear that she was the only one worried about what the farmer was up to. Sometimes I feel like one of the few such (middle aged) beings in the midst of millions of Christians, though not necessarily because I’m smarter than anyone else.

    That’s funny! I sometimes feel like this is one of those alien invasion shows like the TV series “V” where aliens take over top leadership positions around the world disguised as humans. Only a minority of earthlings can clearly see what’s going on because everyone else is so enamored by the aliens’ charisma, carefully chosen words and the appearance of signs and wonders. The small group of rebels who see the truth are made to feel like they are either insane or very bad people but in reality they are trying to save the other earthlings from utter destruction.

    The good news here is that when people take the time to listen to or read the facts they can see the truth. The problem is that leaders in the church and the media, for some reason, aren’t taking the charlatans on. Brad/Futurist Guy got it right on Thomas Nelson. Look at the authors and books they are publishing and promoting. In the name of sales they legitimize heretical teaching. Same for LifeWay bookstores. No wonder it’s so easy to fool so many. People assume if this Dominionism thing or Complementarianism (requiring signed contracts) deal was real someone besides a handful of bloggers would be covering it.

    In the mean time, look at the shiny objects, be mesmerized by the smoke machines, laser lights and great music. And remember, “we are of peace”.

  66. @ elastigirl & Lydia:

    You guys* might want to check out Chris Hedges’ book Empire of Illusion.
    In it he discusses what it means to go from a print-based society to an electronically based visual one. And as you’ve pointed out elastigirl, it’s not pretty.

    *English is now the lingua franca of the modern world just as Greek was in the ancient world. The word ‘guys’ is no longer gender specific. In its broader context, it can now refer to both men and women collectively

  67. Lydia wrote:

    So what exactly did they see in him to not only partner with him but defend and promote him after all the scandals?

    I was just reading some discussion about a current public figure and the question was so what do people see in him right on and how come some people in power don’t understand this. Their answer is applicable here, I think. They said that once people have a hero then they will forgive or overlook any past failures or fiascos that the hero may have had. Once one is a hero then that takes precedence over the details.

    That reminds me of prior discussions here about David of Israel. For that matter Bonhoeffer the hero, until you look too closely at his life. They were both genuine heroes IMO, but flawed none the less.

    I think the question to contemplate is what makes so and so a hero? Which I think is what you said? Well, in religion sometimes they offer the people something the people want but which they have not or are too afraid to do. The neo-cals offer the people certainty while our post-modern culture does not. Heroes break the rules (Driscoll) and get away with it and convince other people that they too can break the rules and get away with it. They offer some he-man ideology of one kind or another in a culture that is no longer tolerating some ‘he-man’ stuff that used to be tolerated. They offer some sort of identity that people can wear like a cloak while thinking I may not be all that said heroes are but I wear the same uniform. They offer a set of rules and procedures to people for whom societal rules have either disappeared or been found wanting. And they convince people that the glorious cause will prevail, such that people can not just look at their own struggling self who can fail but can look at the glorious cause and be a winner just by being part of the cause.

    I don’t know what all else, but the pattern seems to be there. Personally I cannot blame people for this since a long white coat basically did this for me in the wearing of the uniform for the glorious cause category. If some people satisfy these needs in religion or in that area of human endeavor which one should not mention on TWW, well there you go.

  68. Eagle wrote:

    @ LT:
    I wrote about some of this in this post here….

    Excellent Post Eagle! I think that if the Duggar show had been produced by TBN or Daystar that it would still be on today. I used to think that turning a blind eye to pastors who abuse their spiritual authority and hurt their own sheep was based on hyper-grace and that it basically came from a good place of forgiveness and not wanting to judge. I was wrong.

    One of your commenters said that TLC’s decision to cancel the Duggar’s show was based on money not ideals. I think money is also at the root of all these megas who not only instantly forgive non-repentant abusers but put them back into power. They are buying a form of “fall insurance” for themselves. That way when they have an affair, engage in abusive behavior like formal shunning, cover up sex scandals at their church, misappropriate funds or get connected to any other scandal, then all the other megas must rally to their defense and hire them for outside speaking gigs. They must then speak on grace and forgiveness until enough time has passed for the fallen pastor to reclaim his throne.

    At the Gateway Pastors Conference, Robert Morris’ line about not needing to crucify Mark Driscoll because Jesus was already crucified for us, was entirely self-serving. Seven months earlier Morris had stated at his Spring GW Pastors Conference that he had done far worse things as a pastor than Mark ever did. If you can’t hold a guy like Mark responsible for victimizing his elders, staff and congregants, then you can’t hold Morris and his ilk accountable either. The megas book each other with 5 figure tithe funded speaking fees and sell each others books. It’s a circular process and if one of the links is found to be defective then others can be similarly questioned. The weak link must be supported to keep the structure in place.

    Who wins in the end? The millionaire pastors who are permanently inoculated from criticism and accountability by the club. BTW Mark wasn’t being crucified, he was being asked to participate in a brief (1.5 month) elder led reconciliation process.

  69. @ okrapod:
    Okra, that describes most every Righteous Cause Mass Movement in history.

    Fascism, Nazism, Communism, ISIS-style Islam…

  70. LT wrote:

    They are buying a form of “fall insurance” for themselves. That way when they have an affair, engage in abusive behavior like formal shunning, cover up sex scandals at their church, misappropriate funds or get connected to any other scandal, then all the other megas must rally to their defense and hire them for outside speaking gigs.

    “ONE HAND WASHES THE OTHER…”

  71. Stan wrote:

    And note, this is actually a distinct place from Ed Young Jr’s Fellowship Church.

    Thank you for making that clear. So many churches are using the same names that sometimes I can get them mixed up.

  72. @ LT:

    My heart grew heavier and heavier with each word in your post- yet I was giggling almost uncontrollably at the mental image generated by your last sentence. Wow Wow wow.

    Quick question though- I am going to read up on this, but Ravi Zacharias heretical?
    I hadn’t heard anything that set off alarm bells before, but I’m really curious now. What are you referencing?

  73. Anonymous wrote:

    Mohler’s and Dever’s hooking up with Mahaney, as you know, is an extreme disappointment to me.

    What makes me even sadder is that Al Mohler has never apologized for saying that those of us who object to Mahaney have a Javert like obsession with him. Not one word of concern about the abuse vocalism have ever been publicly expressed. To me, this means that SBTS will not teach proper responses to child sex abuse.

  74. Indeed, and my heart hurts for some of the flies who stuck to the strip.

    WillysJeepMan wrote:

    Mark Driscoll is to Christianity what a fly strip is to a picnic. He serves a purpose, though not the purpose some think.

  75. Seriously though, is it possible for Driscoll to get more than a one or two shot speaking gig at the venues described in the the main body of the post?
    Scottsdale is an area of well-heeled white folks it’s true, but even so, and with the dwindling pool of dollars, the likelihood of Driscoll returning to his glory days (in Seattle) is not good.
    My guess is that he’s going to have to content himself with AZ as a sort of figurative Paraguay, much like a few SS colonels did in the real Paraguay when the Third Reich fell apart.

  76. Stan wrote:

    If I search for “redemption groups” from my location in Dallas, I get three Acts 29 churches here.

    “redemption groups” aka “Sin Inquisition Groups.” I cringe when I see that those groups live on.

  77. @ dee:

    Do you need me to explain the difference between CrossPointe Community Church in Corinth, and Crosspointe Church in Carrollton? It’s very important!

    PS, happy trails on your trip :)

  78. LT wrote:

    because what our culture teaches men is often 180 degrees different than what the Bible teaches about being a Real Man.”

    This is what gets me about these guys.

    The Bible teaches Christians to be more like Jesus. It doesn’t get into how to be a “real man.”

    I notice there really isn’t the same kind of emphasis on how to be a “real woman” from guys who are into posturing as “manly men.”

    Yes, they will insist women should be passive doormats and ;Stay At Home Mothers,; but I notice that a lot of women don’t seem as insecure about their “womanhood” as some types of men do with their “manhood.”

    I am aware that some gender complementarian women may get into bragging competitions about who the best wife submitter is – but by and large, this having to prove one’s gender mettle seems to more often happen in, or among, gender comp men.

    I don’t often see female gender comps trying to prove they’re a “real woman” to other women by bragging on things like, “Hey Susie, I bet I can bake more cookies for my man faster than you can yours.”

    Where-as you might see a Driscoll type of guy, one who extols cave-man behavior as being biblical for men, bragging to other men how much he can bench press, or change his oil in his car alone.

    I don’t see how these Driscoll like guys can altogether claim the Bible teaches American men how to be “biblical men” today (in specific cultural terms) because we’re now in the year 2016, in a different culture.

    If you want to teach men to be personally responsible, be moral, treat people with respect, etc, those concepts are in the Bible in broad terms – they don’t have to be narrowly taught or defined in gender-related ways.

  79. @ LT:

    Speaking of Jimmy Evans: he’s a marriage idolater. He has an entire TV show where all he does is coach people on how to have great marriages.

    Evans sometimes spouts off false and insulting things about adult singles or that have insulting implications towards adult singles, like teaching it takes a man married to a woman to make a complete person, or to have a total mind.

    (He’s actually said stuff like this on his own TV show or when a guest speaker on TBN’s “Praise the Lord” program).

  80. dee wrote:

    He will never go down the egalitarian road.

    I think he’s a sexist in his private life but perhaps willing to squelch or quiet down the sexism in public, if it helps gets his career going again.

    From
    “What Mark Driscoll Told Brian Houston at Hillsong Conference” (published June 2015)
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/distraction-down-under-hillsong-mark-driscoll-conference.html

    Snippet:
    —–

    Driscoll also distanced himself from past crude and misogynistic remarks, calling “the perception of what I think about women…entirely my own fault.

    “I want to have the heart for the women in the future who will allow me to be their pastor that I have for my daughters,” he said, “and that is if they have spiritual gifts, and are called by God, and are godly, I want to help them achieve that intentionally and encourage that and be a support for that.”

    He seems to be trying to worm his way into denominations or churches that are more lenient about allowing women to preach, lead, and teach, so he probably feels like he has to tone down the sexism.

  81. FYI, Redemption Church sponsored the Driscoll’s “Real Marriage” seminar for their churches in Phoenix.

    No regrets I guess.

  82. Q wrote:

    FYI, Redemption Church sponsored the Driscoll’s “Real Marriage” seminar for their churches in Phoenix.

    No regrets I guess.

    More like “he brought in the Benjamins.”

  83. Just a thought. Bear with me…
    John the Baptist opened a path for Jesus.
    Mark Driscoll opened a path for Trump!
    Driscoll broke ground on being obnoxious and misogyny.
    Trump made Driscoll seem a minor character.
    Just sayin’…

  84. Daisy wrote:

    Driscoll also distanced himself from past crude and misogynistic remarks, calling “the perception of what I think about women…entirely my own fault.
    “I want to have the heart for the women in the future who will allow me to be their pastor that I have for my daughters,” he said,

    What??? Doesn’t MD see his own daughters as “penis homes”???
    Or, is he just afraid others will look down on him for referring to them in such a manner?

  85. what kind of church do you ladies attend?

    Not asking which in particular, but I got to a pretty traditional Baptist church.
    I am interested in what draws you to where you are currently?

    I would like a church where I know I am hearing the truth.

    I feel I have that now, but I do have some reservations about some things I see.
    I realize no church is going to be absolutely perfect. But in the absence of knowing any different, I wonder where to start.

  86. Loren Haas wrote:

    Just a thought. Bear with me…
    John the Baptist opened a path for Jesus.
    Mark Driscoll opened a path for Trump!
    Driscoll broke ground on being obnoxious and misogyny.
    Trump made Driscoll seem a minor character.
    Just sayin’…

    Hasn’t Trump always been a blowhard? And misogynistic at that?

    He went on and on about his daughter’s looks more than anything else in several interviews.
    Even talked about how he’d sleep with her- his own daughter if he weren’t her father. Eeeeeegh.

  87. NJ wrote:

    Does anybody know if this is still true of Piper?

    Yes it is. He recently he said he has no regrets when asked directly.

  88. I am a first time poster. I used to listen to many of Driscoll’s sermons and thought he was really inspiring. I cannot believe I willingly overlooked all of the hurtful things he did to other people, and I never read any of his things again.

    In my opinion, he got the young people on his side and so churches that want to seem hip or cool, align themselves with him. Younger folks are not as discerning , and so do not avail themselves of research that TWW and other websites do. Once Christianity stops wanting to be cool, and focuses on loving God and serving other people, bad pastors will no longer have the opportunity to find a place to hurt other people to enrich themselves.

  89. Steve wrote:

    I’m a member of a Converge church. There’s nothing sinister about the denomination.

    Do you consider Converge a denomination? I thought it was just an affinity group.

    Any Converge pastor/elder who endorses mark Driscoll and doesn’t get a question or two from the leadership means that Converge isn’t doing its job.

  90. two thoughts

    sad about Matt Chandler . . . I thought he would escape that pit

    also, I remember trying to sort out what the definition of ‘gospel’ was according to the people using the term at SBCvoices, but I remember how I got lectured for even asking and was told I was ‘ingenuous’ . . . I have wondered what they would have replied instead, if they didn’t feel they had to shut my question down (?)

  91. Luna Lovegood wrote:

    I would like a church where I know I am hearing the truth.

    There are a gracious plenty churches and denominations that will try to convince themselves and others that they and only they are the purveyors of truth. The trouble is that they do not know that. Paul was specific that we have only part of the information and will not have it all in this life. I think that it is necessary to make peace with that unpleasant reality, and I think there must be a good reason for it, but it is not easy to live with.

  92. dee wrote:

    That is why you need to sniff em out.

    Actually, some of the bunch are easily located. All the YRR “lead pastors” in my area camp out at local coffee shops tweeting their lives away. They don’t make hospital visits, evangelistic calls, visit widows, etc. like normal pastors. They just show up on Sundays to “preach” from their stage.

  93. ION:

    Fitba’ : FA chairman Greg Dyke has announced today that England can win the world cup “one day soon”.

    Next Week: How to nail soup to the ceiling.

    IHTIH

  94. Christiane wrote:

    remember trying to sort out what the definition of ‘gospel’ was according to the people using the term at SBCvoices, but I remember how I got lectured for even asking and was told I was ‘ingenuous

    SBCVoices has not left a good impression on me. It’s only served to make me more critical and suspicious of the SBC.

  95. okrapod wrote:

    There are a gracious plenty churches and denominations that will try to convince themselves and others that they and only they are the purveyors of truth.

    An article in Christianity Today reported that there are over 40,000 Christian denominations and para-church organizations on planet earth! Which one has a corner on the truth? While we all desire to be a member of the perfect church, I haven’t found it on this side of heaven during my long Christian journey. However, as Christians, we serve a perfect Savior who is in the business of perfecting our lives one soul at a time. Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions. The thing we call “church” is OK if it is reaching lost folks for Christ and mobilizing the gifts that He has given to the church. Anything else is doing church without God.

  96. Nancy2 wrote:

    SBCVoices has not left a good impression on me. It’s only served to make me more critical and suspicious of the SBC.

    SBCVoices is a blog established by and for New Calvinists. It is not a voice for the majority of Southern Baptists who are non-Calvinist in belief and practice. SBC Today is more representative of mainline Southern Baptists. However, SBC’s minority reformed component is currently enjoying their moment in the sun as Calvinization of the denomination advances through some very clever maneuverings of folks like Al Mohler to capture leadership positions at most SBC entities, including leading seminaries, mission agencies, and publishing house.

  97. Pingback: Evangelical Leaders & Ecumenism – Pt.2 | Cristo La Verdad UNITED KINGDOM

  98. Anonymous wrote:

    A great test of physical bravery would be for any of these guys to train and get in the ring, in public, and participate in one boxing match… That would at least measure their physical bravery, which is one small aspect of it.
    Somehow I can’t see Driscoll ever being willing to be watched as a fighter etc. in a fair fight. He would pay the other guy, and have the thing rigged from the beginning.
    And as we know – as stated above, physical bravery is only one small aspect of strength.

    Brings to mind a recurring fantasy of mine. I was a university boxer. Had one of the best coaches in the game. Not the best by any means, but not the worst, fought some national champions along the way, at least learned how to set up some kind of defense and put leverage into a punch. Self-styled tough guys would stop by the gym occasionally and ask the coach if they could try their hand at it and he’d oblige, set them up with someone not so intimidating-looking like me. That was fun, because invariably you’d knock the stuffing clean out of them, make them look silly and they’d have quite enough after one round with even a middling (but trained) boxer, because most self-styled tough guys are pure bluster and without the training and the sweat and blood that we paid to learn our craft, they were helpless in the ring.

    So my fantasy? Three rounds with Mark Driscoll before a crowd of his worshipful followers. Only in my dreams.

  99. Christiane wrote:

    sad about Matt Chandler . . . I thought he would escape that pit

    It is sad about Chandler – he joins so much wasted young talent that had potential to advance the cause of Christ until they got tripped up by New Calvinism. Pied Piper led him into that pit years ago … check out his testimony of converting to Calvinism at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKEpVzHnUw0

  100. Max wrote:

    Actually, some of the bunch are easily located. All the YRR “lead pastors” in my area camp out at local coffee shops tweeting their lives away.

    Wish they’d stay in Cyberspace.
    It’s when they unjack back into Meatspace that they do their damage to all the rest of us.

  101. Law Prof wrote:

    So my fantasy? Three rounds with Mark Driscoll before a crowd of his worshipful followers. Only in my dreams.

    I’D PAY TO SEE THAT!
    Pastor “I CAN BEAT YOU UP!” getting his butt kicked by some Law Professor!

  102. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Not to say that there aren’t some highly educated Pentecostals. It’s just more of a general attitude toward education.

    Many
    Independent Fundamentalist Baptists also tend to be very anti-intellectual and mock anyone who believe in higher education.

    Double this for the King James Version onlyists, many of whom will mock anyone who bothers to learn koine Greek or ancient Hebrew.

    I see the opposite tendency among Neo Calvinists. They have a lot of intellectual pride. They will brag about knowing koine, or how many degrees they have.

    I’m not too keen on either side, either Christians who ridicule the value of education/ learning, or those who make far too much of it to the point they sound arrogant and make it sound like everyone needs an advanced degree to read/understand what the Bible means.

  103. dee wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Crazy drivers and bad traffic!

    I learned to drive in Salem Massachusetts. The South taught me how to be polite.

    I learned to drive in Los Angeles traffic.

    But no way will I drive in Las Vegas.
    Vegas has the scariest and craziest traffic I have ever seen.

  104. Luna Lovegood wrote:

    @ LT:
    My heart grew heavier and heavier with each word in your post- yet I was giggling almost uncontrollably at the mental image generated by your last sentence. Wow Wow wow.
    Quick question though- I am going to read up on this, but Ravi Zacharias heretical?
    I hadn’t heard anything that set off alarm bells before, but I’m really curious now. What are you referencing?

    It was only a prediction that he would say something heretical tomorrow. I base that solely on his increasingly tight relationship with Robert Morris. Ravi came to Gateway to speak earlier this year and then hired Robert Morris to be a featured speaker at his Founders Weekend Conference in late October. Now Ravi is back in the Gateway pulpit again tomorrow night.

    Ravi is not a stupid man. He knows who Robert Morris and that he preaches both Word of Faith heresy and the Prosperity Gospel. Does Ravi embrace everything that Robert preaches or stands for? I doubt it. But he’s the closing speaker at Gateway’s “Let’s All Go Pentecostal” First Conference. He is cap-stoning after Church of Foursquare Jack Hayford teaches about tongues, followed Screamin’ Sammmy Rodriguez declaring perfect success if you worship Sammy, followed by Hillsong’s Christine Caine yelling about something Hillsongish if they can squeeze it in between their Las Vegas Show Girls Silent Night numbers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcMbK-2ZCl0

    Is it possible Ravo will stick to solid doctrine as part of his keynote address for taking a church into full Pentecostalism? I suppose so, but I wouldn’t bet on it. Ravi just finished a big gig headlining for Louis Giglio’s Passion Conference this weekend. If you’ve ever been then you know how much false teaching and idolatry is involved there.

    Ravi is also reportedly aligning with the Dominionism movement and was allegedly at the big Wilks Brothers private Presidential Dominionism Conference a week ago with Robert Morris at the Wilks Brothers Ranch in Cisco, TX. They were plotting how to get the anointed Ted Cruz crowned King of the United States. David Barton the leader of Ted Cruz’s Wilks’ funded Super-PAC helped host this scary event. This man seems to be pursuing theological bad company.

    I know that biblically sound doctrine teachers can speak kindly of other not so sound pastors and have that in no way affect their true doctrine. That is the sign of a gentleperson and a diplomat and is to be respected. But Ravi has decided to jump head first into the shark tank and I don’t think he’s there to convert Louis G, Christine C, Robert, Barton and Cruz. I will wait to see what he says tomorrow. But if he is going to co-star with such false teachers and take their money over and over again, then he needs to speak up and say that he in no other way endorses what they are teaching.

    Does that make sense, or do you think I am being unfair? I have an admitted bias against people who partner with Robert Morris so I would sincerely appreciate a second opinion? I will also be thrilled to apologize for my prediction if Ravi takes the lectern tomorrow and chastises Robert for his false teachings. Indeed, I can imagine few who would be more thrilled.

  105. Law Prof wrote:

    So my fantasy? Three rounds with Mark Driscoll before a crowd of his worshipful followers. Only in my dreams.

    I am not a fan of boxing, but I’d pay to see that…

  106. Law Prof wrote:

    Self-styled tough guys would stop by the gym occasionally and ask the coach if they could try their hand at it and he’d oblige, set them up with someone not so intimidating-looking like me. That was fun, because invariably you’d knock the stuffing clean out of them, make them look silly and they’d have quite enough after one round with even a middling (but trained) boxer, because most self-styled tough guys are pure bluster and without the training and the sweat and blood that we paid to learn our craft, they were helpless in the ring.

    I remember that retired MMA fighter who analyzed Driscoll’s MMA fanboying (and had nothing good to say about it) relating how on fight nights they’d get these untrained amateur MMA teams of Tough Guys — usually with some team name like “Ass-Kickers” — wanting in on the action. They’d go into the arena against trained MMA fighters and usually exit on a stretcher.

  107. @ Daisy:

    I’m not too keen on either side, either Christians who ridicule the value of education/ learning, or those who make far too much of it to the point they sound arrogant and make it sound like everyone needs an advanced degree to read/understand what the Bible means.

    Ditto.

  108. Daisy wrote:

    I see the opposite tendency among Neo Calvinists. They have a lot of intellectual pride.

    Intelligence 18, Wisdom 3.

    “You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
    — Father Brown

    They will brag about knowing koine, or how many degrees they have.

    Yeah. HONORARY degrees.

  109. Daisy wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    Ditto.
    Wait a minute! Did someone just agree with me about something on the internet?!
    Heck may have just froze over.

    Every so often, that happens to me – startling, ain’t it?

    FWIW, I agree with you a lot of the time…

  110. My copy of Systematic Theology is 1264 pages while my copy of Foundations of Pentecostal Theology is only 630. I guess that seals which side is more educated.

    Just kidding.

    Regardless of whether you are Reformed or not, Pentecostal or not, Complementarian or Egalitarian, or this vs. that, the real issue is the celebrities, worshiptainment, control and opening new franchises, all masquerading as the church.

    “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Followers of Christ and Him alone. It is, and should not be, any more complicated than that.

    Sadly, we have lots of everything but the Real Thing in this country.

  111. dee wrote:

    I can’t wait until Mirele starts her protests. I may join her one of these days.

    Yeah, thankfully it’s not this week, as it’s rainy right now.

    My plan is to have a sign where one side says NOPE and the other side says ABSOLUTELY NOT. I will also be preparing a handout (thinking a half-sheet with links to the various websites) to give to interested parties. When I would picket Scientology, I would just walk back and forth with my sign. I didn’t shout anything because 9th East in Salt Lake was a residential street and I didn’t want to disturb the neighbors. I’ll do the same here, because, frankly, it’s not the neighbors’ fault that Mark Driscoll is currently roosting there.

    I do not think I would be a good person to write to the papers. I’m not a churchgoer and I’ve not been directly hurt by Driscoll. I’m going to stand out there as a warning to people that Driscoll is not even *problematic*, he is a *problem* best stayed away from. And while it’s clear Driscoll has some doctrinal issues, I don’t plan on touching on those. Rather, I’m going to instead focus on the “under the bus” issues, the treatment of women, the plagiarism, the fact that he just up and left his last church high and dry, etc.

    Oh yeah, the whole business with the helicopters annoy me. I frequently hear the Mesa PD or the county sheriff’s helicopter hovering over or near my house, sometimes even late at night. I know they’re trying to find someone and I don’t worry about it. I certainly don’t give the impression to children (and there are quite a number around here) that the presence of the cop copter is an issue. It just is.

  112. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Quote from Grudem:
    “And in varying degrees (in different churches) non-members are encouraged to minister to others in the church – they can become active members of home fellowship groups (and in some churches, such as my own Scottsdale Bible Church, they can lead such groups).”

    Oh, they wouldn’t let me lead a study at Scottsdale Bible Church, because I would ask hard questions.

    It’s also too bad that the only seminary in the Phoenix area is the one Grudem teaches at. I wouldn’t be welcome there, again, because I would ask hard questions.

  113. mirele wrote:

    Oh yeah, the whole business with the helicopters annoy me. I frequently hear the Mesa PD or the county sheriff’s helicopter hovering over or near my house, sometimes even late at night. I know they’re trying to find someone and I don’t worry about it. I certainly don’t give the impression to children (and there are quite a number around here) that the presence of the cop copter is an issue. It just is.

    But that’s not a cop chopper…
    THEY’RE THE BLACK HELICOPTERS OF THE CONSPIRACY!!!!!
    PERSECUTING THE MANAGAWD FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS’ SAKE!!!!!

  114. Anonymous wrote:

    Also, if you have not seen the movie “Borat: Cultural Learnings of America Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan”, I recommend it for the scene in which Borat becomes filled with Holy Spirit at a Pentecostal Church, and the people, including a U.S. Congressman, I believe, buy the entire thing.

    Not just any old Pentecostal church, but at the yearly camp meeting for the United Pentecostal Churches in Mississippi. (The UPC is a unitarian, holiness, very strict version of Pentecostalism that split from the Assemblies of God in 1915.) And yes, “Borat” did do what he did. As far as I know, none of the other participants ever breathed a word about how they were taken in by “Borat.” In a way, it’s kind of sad.

    (He also went to a Civil War re-enactment, but the re-enactors, used to dressing up themselves, were pretty much on to him from the gitgo.)

  115. @ okrapod:
    You know, reading your comment made me think that perhaps our culture confuses hero with celebrity? Obtaining a medical doctorate was much more respected 50 years ago. Storming Normandy was heroic for an average guy. Heroism seemed to be mapped to some endeavor or accomplishment. Lottie Moon and Amy Carmicheal were heroes to me as a child. The pastor wasn’t.

    I think cult of personality/celebrity and heroism are two different things. But I am not sure our culture sees it that way. It seems like culture makes heroes out of celebrities. Oh well!

  116. Daisy wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    Not to say that there aren’t some highly educated Pentecostals. It’s just more of a general attitude toward education.
    Many
    Independent Fundamentalist Baptists also tend to be very anti-intellectual and mock anyone who believe in higher education.
    Double this for the King James Version onlyists, many of whom will mock anyone who bothers to learn koine Greek or ancient Hebrew.

    That is pure sour grapes from the crowd who either didn’t have the fortitude to educate themselves or the acumen to acquire that education (or both).

  117. @ okrapod:
    And I think it is true that people have a tendency to build someone… they do not even know personally ….up in their mind to something they aren’t. I saw this in the mega world. Megas are built on that principle….people think they know the guy on stage when all they know is his stage persona.

  118. @ Loren Haas:

    The Neo Cal leaders of the SBC despise Trump. Russ Moore has spoken and they are following the party line: if you vote for Trump you are not a Christian. Strange they did NOT have that reaction to Driscoll. Instead, they partnered with him.

  119. @ Roadwork:

    Thank you Roadwork. The issue is not education. I don’t believe Jesus would weigh a man/woman on their educational status.

  120. @ dee:
    It’s a denomination the way the SBC or Assemblies of God are. It doesn’t have a huge headquarters or anything, and it claims to exist only to cooperate for missions, but it’s nothing like the Acts 29 Network or other newfangled affinity groups of churches. As one commenter pointed out above, Converge (Baptist General Conference until very recently) traces its history to 19th century Swedish American baptist churches. It has put a lot of emphasis on church planting recently, so its public image is probably a bit more edgy than the reality in a lot of Converge churches, which are often traditional, moderately conservative, Northern baptist churches.

  121. First let me say… at this point there is nothing good to be said about Driscoll’s return. .. NOTHING. It still amazes me how so many folks has jumped up and supported this.

    And what Dee says about investigating a church is right on. I have just gone through this any MANY of the questions I personally asked pastors and elders came from here.

    With all that being said, I am man. Male in gender. You know the type. I admit I have gone to a couple “men only” meetings, to that I say big deal. I am sorry, sometimes it does feel that there will never be a place around here for such… unless one is castrated and becomes a completed unic, take an oath to throw ones jock strap away and wear granny panties, then make sure one has a crew cut.

    I have realized by Dee’s help to always look down the side of the victim first and I also realize the pain that many carry because of abuse. This place has opened my eyes to so many things, I truthfully say it has changed my life… for the good.

    I am married to the same women for 35 years, have two accomplished grown kids. Do I sometimes take the lead on things, yes… can my wife stick her fist in my mouth and change my mind… anytime she wants. Can the Lord use a women from the pulpit to tell me something… youbetcha. But please not all of us that think if a man takes a lead or becomes responsible for certain decisions that he needs to be compared to ACTS29 or Mark Driscoll.

    I love this place, but I will continue to visit only with all my bodily parts intact. Thank you.

  122. @ Daisy:
    Thanks Daisy. I identify with the dreaded church search described in the article you posted – sounds painfully similar to my journey.

  123. Roadwork wrote:

    Sadly, we have lots of everything but the Real Thing in this country.

    So true! We have neglected the Main Thing as the main thing in church and are paying the price. Once a counter-culture to the world, the church has become a sub-culture of it. The boundaries have become blurred. It’s getting increasingly difficult to hear Jesus amidst all the noise, let alone find where He is going to church.

  124. Steve wrote:

    @ dee:
    It’s a denomination the way the SBC or Assemblies of God are. It doesn’t have a huge headquarters or anything, and it claims to exist only to cooperate for missions, but it’s nothing like the Acts 29 Network or other newfangled affinity groups of churches. As one commenter pointed out above, Converge (Baptist General Conference until very recently) traces its history to 19th century Swedish American baptist churches. It has put a lot of emphasis on church planting recently, so its public image is probably a bit more edgy than the reality in a lot of Converge churches, which are often traditional, moderately conservative, Northern baptist churches.

    That’s my understanding of Converge as well. They are not all that different than the Evangelical Free Church of America (EFCA) here in MN, at least. But also understand that Bethlehem Baptist Church–John Piper’s old church–is a member of Converge. Just something to consider in the conversation of Calvinistas and their connections.

  125. @ Lydia:

    Time was when the SBCers that I knew used to criticize the catholics because of alleged bloc voting known as ‘the catholic vote.’ The idea was that baptists practiced separation of church and state (previously considered a righteous life style) which included a firm commitment to let people vote however the ‘felt led’ but at the same time they said that the RCC had other ideas about how to do things-such was the allegation at any rate.

    My, my, I do want you to look at brother russ and his politics. Times change.

  126. Lydia wrote:

    The Neo Cal leaders of the SBC despise Trump. Russ Moore has spoken and they are following the party line: if you vote for Trump you are not a Christian. Strange they did NOT have that reaction to Driscoll. Instead, they partnered with him.

    Oh but, dear Lydia, Brother Driscoll is of the right theo-political party don’t you know?!

  127. My Dear fellow Wartburg Watchers,

    I am going to take a break from TWW for a while, because I am so saddened by the news that comes down so regularly – I am weak, and it wears on me. Partly I’m saddened by the evil perpetrated by the venal worldly jerks that are exposed here, but partly I’m saddened that undiscerning brothers and sisters allow themselves to be taken in by these charlatans, these money-grubbing power-mongering control-freak serpents. No offense to snakes – I kind of like snakes.

    However, I do have something positive and constructive to say. Are you ready? Read the Gospels! Read them, soak in them! Forget about Paul for a while – we are Christians, not Paulians. Just immerse yourself in the works and words of our Lord! You know it will cleanse and refresh you!

    I will be back soon, I’m sure. In the meantime, I love you all in Christ… what a good gang we have here!

  128. @ roebuck:

    i’ll miss you. but hey, one of my suggestions for future topics was JESUS. At least one post a week where we can enter an alternative reality where Paul doesn’t exist, and we can focus solely on Jesus.

    (my preference would be to skirt the theological side of things, and focus on Jesus the person, the man, the son, brother, friend, the communicator, the brave radical, the kind and compassionate soul… and to take guesses at his myers briggs personality type)

  129. Off topic, but has anyone read Wade Burleson’s latest post?
    If you haven’t, I highly recommend it!

    Hurry back, Roebuck!

  130. roebuck wrote:

    Read the Gospels! Read them, soak in them! Forget about Paul for a while – we are Christians, not Paulians.

    Dear Roebuck, I would like to scream that very thing from New Calvinist pulpits across the country! I truly believe that if these young reformers would immerse themselves in the Gospels, the writings of Paul would come into proper perspective. It’s all about Jesus – even Paul would say that (actually, he did)!!

    I’m relatively new to TWW – I have appreciated the work that this blog does, as well as your comments, Roebuck. Enjoy your break from the blogosphere. See you here, there, or in the air!

  131. mirele wrote:

    I wish I’d known about this so I could have gone up there with my NOPE sign.

    FYI, Target has sweatshirts with “NOPE” on them in all caps. :) We should get them, across the TWW readership. It could be our uniform. 😉

  132. Nancy2 wrote:

    Off topic, but has anyone read Wade Burleson’s latest post?
    If you haven’t, I highly recommend it!
    Hurry back, Roebuck!

    HALLELUJAH! My pastor had me at, “Have you ever heard of Wade Burleson? I love his blog.”

  133. roebuck wrote:

    I am going to take a break from TWW for a while, because I am so saddened by the news that comes down so regularly – I am weak, and it wears on me. Partly I’m saddened by the evil perpetrated by the venal worldly jerks that are exposed here, but partly I’m saddened that undiscerning brothers and sisters allow themselves to be taken in by these charlatans, these money-grubbing power-mongering control-freak serpents. No offense to snakes – I kind of like snakes.

    Love you, roebuck. Will look forward to your return.

  134. Anonymous wrote:

    Willing to give up privilege and position to allow others to get the glory.

    I love this! Complementarians, though, are all about gaining and keeping position and power. That’s why weaker men are attracted to complementarianism.

  135. A.Stacy wrote:

    But please not all of us that think if a man takes a lead or becomes responsible for certain decisions that he needs to be compared to ACTS29 or Mark Driscoll.

    I agree, for either man or woman!

  136. Stan wrote:

    Do you need me to explain the difference between CrossPointe Community Church in Corinth, and Crosspointe Church in Carrollton? It’s very important!

    I had to laugh when I saw this. I go to Crosspoint in Nashville, which is fantastic church, but what is with that name? Why are there so many Crosspoints in the church universe? When I go to get a file on iTunes, I have to be careful that I have the correct church.

  137. roebuck wrote:

    I am going to take a break from TWW for a while,

    Roebuck,
    Don’t think you can just sneak out the back door. I will, lovingly (of course), be watching for you. If I don’t see you for 2 or 3 posts I will recommend the Deebs put you on the “Care List.” From there it will be discipline, lovingly, (of course). The outcome of that will surely be a form of internet blog-world excommunication. A sort of “you can’t quit, you’re fired,” if you will.
    Sincerely,
    Todd Leeman, Chief Inquisitor, 9Marx of an Effective Blog

  138. A.Stacy wrote:

    Do I sometimes take the lead on things, yes… can my wife stick her fist in my mouth and change my mind… anytime she wants. Can the Lord use a women from the pulpit to tell me something… youbetcha. But please not all of us that think if a man takes a lead or becomes responsible for certain decisions that he needs to be compared to ACTS29 or Mark Driscoll.

    Oh of course not! What many of us have an argument with is the idea that God says that the man is supposed to make all the decisions or the woman can only if the man allows her to. We just think that that mentality is not Biblical.

  139. Lydia wrote:

    It seems like culture makes heroes out of celebrities.

    Having read enough history to be somewhat familiar with the mores of yesteryear it seems our culture now values personality much more than character. I can recite all too many groups and situations I’ve been a part of where they looked to follow not the person of tested character and judgement but the extrovert with charisma. In this sense much of the church has adopted the world’s ways.

  140. Muff Potter wrote:

    Seriously though, is it possible for Driscoll to get more than a one or two shot speaking gig at the venues described in the the main body of the post?
    Scottsdale is an area of well-heeled white folks it’s true, but even so, and with the dwindling pool of dollars, the likelihood of Driscoll returning to his glory days (in Seattle) is not good.

    Muff, I think you make a valid point but my judgement is clouded by hope you are right. I have no doubt some new screwball stuff will come down the pike, even if it is just re-packaged screwball stuff. The part you inform me is that it is unlikely that a retread like Driscoll will be leading it. In the meantime his continued appearances expose the Christianity in so many churches to be a sham.

  141. Pingback: Wednesday Link List | Thinking Out Loud UNITED STATES

  142. Bill M wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    It seems like culture makes heroes out of celebrities.
    Having read enough history to be somewhat familiar with the mores of yesteryear it seems our culture now values personality much more than character. I can recite all too many groups and situations I’ve been a part of where they looked to follow not the person of tested character and judgement but the extrovert with charisma. In this sense much of the church has adopted the world’s ways.

    That is a good way to put it.

  143. Bill M wrote:

    In this sense much of the church has adopted the world’s ways.

    I take that a step beyond. I think that much of what we call ‘church’ is actually the world in vestments carrying a bible under its arm. It does not make me happy to think this, but I do think that we have fallen off some steeper cliff than we may realize.

  144. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    The Neo Cal leaders of the SBC despise Trump. Russ Moore has spoken and they are following the party line: if you vote for Trump you are not a Christian. Strange they did NOT have that reaction to Driscoll. Instead, they partnered with him.
    Oh but, dear Lydia, Brother Driscoll is of the right theo-political party don’t you know?!

    Comrade Driscoll’s Ideology is Pure.

  145. Bill M wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    It seems like culture makes heroes out of celebrities.
    Having read enough history to be somewhat familiar with the mores of yesteryear it seems our culture now values personality much more than character. I can recite all too many groups and situations I’ve been a part of where they looked to follow not the person of tested character and judgement but the extrovert with charisma. In this sense much of the church has adopted the world’s ways.

    Doesn’t the Book of Revelation speak of the Ultimate CELEBRITY?
    Marveling flock of Groupies and all?

    “WHO IS LIKE UNTO THE BEAST?”

  146. Daisy wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    Not to say that there aren’t some highly educated Pentecostals. It’s just more of a general attitude toward education.
    Many
    Independent Fundamentalist Baptists also tend to be very anti-intellectual and mock anyone who believe in higher education.
    Double this for the King James Version onlyists, many of whom will mock anyone who bothers to learn koine Greek or ancient Hebrew.
    I see the opposite tendency among Neo Calvinists. They have a lot of intellectual pride. They will brag about knowing koine, or how many degrees they have.
    I’m not too keen on either side, either Christians who ridicule the value of education/ learning, or those who make far too much of it to the point they sound arrogant and make it sound like everyone needs an advanced degree to read/understand what the Bible means.

    You are exactly right. You may forget that I believe Hyles Anderson College gave an honorary doctorate to Bill Rice’s horse. I think I remember that correctly.

    All this to say that it makes perfect sense that a guy like Driscoll would morph toward a wing of the Christian faith that is not particularly educated.

  147. A.Stacy wrote:

    With all that being said, I am man. Male in gender… I am sorry, sometimes it does feel that there will never be a place around here for such… unless one is castrated and becomes a completed eunuch, take an oath to throw one’s jock strap away and wear granny panties, then make sure one has a crew cut.

    I’m a man, too, and I’ve never felt the need to get eunuch-ized, or wear panties, or any of the above, to fit in at TWW.

    Mind you, I’ve never worn a jock strap, and I’ve always hated gym class, so maybe that helps. 😉

  148. Max wrote:

    I truly believe that if these young reformers would immerse themselves in the Gospels, the writings of Paul would come into proper perspective. It’s all about Jesus – even Paul would say that (actually, he did)!!

    Whoops! Driscoll must have been listening in. His new website by-line is “It’s all about Jesus!” http://markdriscoll.org/

  149. A.Stacy wrote:

    I am man. Male in gender. You know the type. I admit I have gone to a couple “men only” meetings, to that I say big deal. I am sorry, sometimes it does feel that there will never be a place around here for such… unless one is castrated and becomes a completed unic, take an oath to throw ones jock strap away and wear granny panties, then make sure one has a crew cut.

    Perhaps you do need to throw away your jock strap, considering what its for.
    But I’d never suggest you wear granny panties. In the next life there will be neither. At least that is what I gather from the Words of Jesus. So I presume, spiritually speaking, neither has any significance in the present.

    http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/05/jock-strap-religion.html

  150. @ Anonymous:

    I’m not so much interested in arguing whether or not Pentecostalism is ‘an educated lot’, as I am wanting to convey to you that your communication is condescending. Did you not realize that Pentecostals/charismatics like myself who participate here might feel something of a sting when we are painted with the words ‘uneducated people’? You come across as someone who sees himself as inhabiting the upper intellectual echelons, looking down at the rabble.

  151. Law Prof wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:
    A great test of physical bravery would be for any of these guys to train and get in the ring, in public, and participate in one boxing match… That would at least measure their physical bravery, which is one small aspect of it.
    Somehow I can’t see Driscoll ever being willing to be watched as a fighter etc. in a fair fight. He would pay the other guy, and have the thing rigged from the beginning.
    And as we know – as stated above, physical bravery is only one small aspect of strength.
    Brings to mind a recurring fantasy of mine. I was a university boxer. Had one of the best coaches in the game. Not the best by any means, but not the worst, fought some national champions along the way, at least learned how to set up some kind of defense and put leverage into a punch. Self-styled tough guys would stop by the gym occasionally and ask the coach if they could try their hand at it and he’d oblige, set them up with someone not so intimidating-looking like me. That was fun, because invariably you’d knock the stuffing clean out of them, make them look silly and they’d have quite enough after one round with even a middling (but trained) boxer, because most self-styled tough guys are pure bluster and without the training and the sweat and blood that we paid to learn our craft, they were helpless in the ring.
    So my fantasy? Three rounds with Mark Driscoll before a crowd of his worshipful followers. Only in my dreams.

    Law Prof, I love boxing – the “Sweet Science.”

    I boxed one year in college, and wish I had started years earlier. I never fancied myself as a tough guy, but I can attest to what you are saying. The coach used to put me in the ring with really young guys who had been fighting since they were kids, and they were so skilled.

    My strength was fluid movement around the ring and a tough chin.

    My weakness – hand speed. In my view, that is the most prized skill.

  152. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Anonymous:
    I’m not so much interested in arguing whether or not Pentecostalism is ‘an educated lot’, as I am wanting to convey to you that your communication is condescending. Did you not realize that Pentecostals/charismatics like myself who participate here might feel something of a sting when we are painted with the words ‘uneducated people’? You come across as someone who sees himself as inhabiting the upper intellectual echelons, looking down at the rabble.

    Elastigirl, I apologize to you. I am not saying that you are uneducated because you are a Charismatic or Pentecostal.

    I do believe, however, that generally the Pentecostal Church is a less educated group, and is susceptible to hucksters like Driscoll. Watching TBN and other Pentecostals on TV (e.g. Duplantis, Angely etc.) merely confirms my belief.

    I realize that part of my analysis or belief does not seem kind, but I believe it is true.

    But it is not true of all Pentecostals, such as yourself.

  153. Daisy wrote:

    I notice that a lot of women don’t seem as insecure about their “womanhood” as some types of men do with their “manhood.”

    In his book “I Don’t Want To Talk About It”, Dr. Terrence Real argues that Western society in general encourages boys (and men) to be insecure. To believe that “manhood” is a very fragile and precarious thing, that has to be earned by effort or achievement or extreme sacrifice. And that no matter what they’ve done or accomplished, their manhood can be lost. Dr. Real also suggests that a primary way that men are encouraged to “achieve masculinity” is to reject whatever is deemed “feminine” (i.e sensitivity, nurture, compassion and the like).

    This is just one aspect in which I very much agree with Max, Okrapod and others who posit that American Christendom has simply become a sub-culture, convinced that it’s somehow being counter-cultural. So much behaviour from leading complementarians seems to reflect insecure and fearful attitudes in overall society, only magnified by turning them into gospel™ issues. (Gospel™ Insecurity. What a bizarre notion.) So instead of a light in the darkness, or a city on a hill, Christianity becomes a funhouse mirror.

    Oddly enough, Dr. Real makes the point that although women are often discouraged from having an assertive voice in society or relationships, for whatever reason, it’s typically not couched in the context of their identity as women. Women who are self-assured or assertive usually aren’t labelled as “not ‘real’ women”. Except in complementarianism. Go figure.

  154. elastigirl wrote:

    Pentecostals/charismatics like myself

    I had no idea, elastigirl. My former church’s core beliefs are Oneness Pentecostal. I’m afraid I still believe things that most here would consider heretical.

  155. @ dee:

    For new readers, if you think that this is just about disciplining some guy who ditched his family and is shacking up with Marla Maples, think again.

    I found your reference to Marla Maples puzzling. Why was it necessary to draw attention to her and not just keep it general such as shacking up with the hottie down the street to make your point?

  156. Anonymous wrote:

    You are exactly right. You may forget that I believe Hyles Anderson College gave an honorary doctorate to Bill Rice’s horse. I think I remember that correctly.

    Paging Gaius Caesar Caligula…
    Paging Gaius Caesar Caligula…

  157. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Dr. Terrence Real argues that Western society in general encourages boys (and men) to be insecure. To believe that “manhood” is a very fragile and precarious thing, that has to be earned by effort or achievement or extreme sacrifice. And that no matter what they’ve done or accomplished, their manhood can be lost. Dr. Real also suggests that a primary way that men are encouraged to “achieve masculinity” is to reject whatever is deemed “feminine” (i.e sensitivity, nurture, compassion and the like).

    The Type Example of achieving that kind of masculinity (known as Hypermasculinity) is one Adolf Hitler.
    Who sneered at what he called “Compassion Cows”.

  158. @ Serving Kids In Japan:

    Everything you said there is spot on.

    You said,

    To believe that “manhood” is a very fragile and precarious thing, that has to be earned by effort or achievement or extreme sacrifice. And that no matter what they’ve done or accomplished, their manhood can be lost.

    That is addressed in this page of book reviews:

    How the Other Half Reads: What I Learned from a Book on Manhood
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2015/october/what-i-learned-from-book-on-manhood.html?paging=off

    Snippet:

    In Man Enough, he [author Pyle] recounts the journey through which he learned that the gospel assured him—and assures all of us—that in Christ we are enough.

    Manhood, then, is not something to be proved or achieved: it is something to be affirmed as men pursue the example of Jesus, the perfect man.

    You said,

    Dr. Real also suggests that a primary way that men are encouraged to “achieve masculinity” is to reject whatever is deemed “feminine” (i.e sensitivity, nurture, compassion and the like).

    Yes, I’ve seen this point raised by others: a lot of men (and I’d say this would include gender complementarians) seem to define manhood to just be the opposite of what they consider feminine, because the feminine (and women/girls) are seen as inferior and weak.

    It’s a pretty insulting view of women and girls, IMO.

    You said,

    who posit that American Christendom has simply become a sub-culture, convinced that it’s somehow being counter-cultural.

    As the sexism espoused and defended by gender complementarians has been in place for many centuries in many cultures (men should supposedly be in charge and control over women in society and marriage), I am really at a loss to understand how gender comps can believe or teach that gender comp is counter cultural.

    I think today’s gender comp is an over-reaction to what they perceive as the dethronement of male entitlement that started in the 1960s (the rise of feminism, etc).
    But gender comp (male control over women) has been the standard for many cultures for thousands of years. They’re going right along with culture in that regard, they are not countering culture.

    You said,

    “Women who are self-assured or assertive usually aren’t labelled as “not ‘real’ women”. Except in complementarianism. Go figure.”

    Well said. That was sort of what I was driving at in my post but didn’t know how to express it well.

    Women can face subtle harassment and discrimination in culture and churches for stepping outside expected gender norms for women, but following those norms doesn’t seem to be as tied to their gender identity as following gender norms does for men.

  159. This was written by a gender complementarian:

    Now I’m really confused about Complementarianism
    http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517/now-im-really-confused-about-complementarianism#.Vo0qc7YrKmW
    By Todd Pruitt

    Pruitt does not believe women should be allowed to be preachers.

    He seems to disagree with Piper’s type of complementarianism, however, which questions if women should be allowed to work as police officers and so on.

    Snippet from the page (by Pruitt):
    —–
    That is why I was so disappointed to see that at Passion 2016 John Piper shared the preaching duties once again with a woman preacher.

    This time it was Christine Caine (in the past it has been Beth Moore).

    Incidentally Caine preaches many of the troubling errors of Word/Faith and Prosperity theology. She also claims Joyce Meyer as a mentor and promotes her ministry.

  160. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Women who are self-assured or assertive usually aren’t labelled as “not ‘real’ women”

    Hmmm. That attitude is not totally gone by any means, but is more subtle. More often the ‘b’ word is used. And yes, you have to be female to be a ‘b’ but that is still a seriously negative idea.

    Women deal with the ‘not a real woman’ issue when they deal with infertility.

  161. Daisy wrote:

    in the past it has been Beth Moore

    There are only certain female preachers/teachers that the YRR will allow their “girls” to listen to (Matt Chandler likes to refer to TVC’s female members as “our girls”). Beth Moore appears to have the reformer’s blessing – the local YRR girls turn out en masse at Moore’s simulcast events and regional conferences. I suppose she is generic enough not to cause the YRR leaders to fear her teaching … and she does talk a lot about “grace.” Priscilla Shirer is another teacher that is OK for the girls to go hear.

  162. okrapod wrote:

    I think that much of what we call ‘church’ is actually the world in vestments carrying a bible under its arm. It does not make me happy to think this, but I do think that we have fallen off some steeper cliff than we may realize.

    Absolutely.

  163. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    American Christendom has simply become a sub-culture, convinced that it’s somehow being counter-cultural

    The YRR narrative is steeped with “culturally-relevant” language. They draw as much world into their churches as they can while they attempt to remain Christian. What they have created is not counter-culture, but sub-culture of the world around it … and they ain’t scaring the devil much with their hype! The YRR bunch make room for Driscoll and others like him, because he doesn’t model or preach holiness; they like him because many of them are like him and have no desire to change. It’s true that Jesus meets you where you are, but he wants you to leave your worldly ways behind as you come to know Him more … in the world, but not of the world. The church of the living God is indeed to be a city on a hill that is distinctly different from the moral decay of an American culture which has forsaken God, with preachers and churches which won’t exhort you to a higher way. Jesus shouts through the heavens “Come out from among them and be ye separate!”

  164. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Doesn’t the Book of Revelation speak of the Ultimate CELEBRITY?
    Marveling flock of Groupies and all?
    “WHO IS LIKE UNTO THE BEAST?”

    Funny you mention that, because I’ve never said this to anyone but my wife for fear that I’d be thought a crank, and I’m not even certain about end times eschatology really, but I’ve had this sneaking suspicion that what we’re seeing in that which calls itself Christianity is a setup for that very Ultimate Celebrity. The notion that we must “come under authority” (of anyone other than Jesus), the setting up of hierarchies within the church (rather than submission one to another), this exaltation of flash and personality (over substance and character), the obsession with Youtube hipster phenoms (rather than Jesus).

    It all seems to be exactly what one would expect the Devil himself to set up to try and deceive, if possible, even the elect. All those young hungry men wanting to come under some charismatic authority just might find the ultimate charismatic authority, possibly soon.

  165. WARNING: CRICKET ALERT

    Readers who are sensitive to (or sick to death of) cricket should skip this post

    Although the match ended in a draw, despite good bowling conditions arriving on Day 5, you’d have to say South Africa have more reasons to be cheerful. It’s very rare for a team fielding first to concede 600 runs and still be in the box seat on the final day!

    END OF CRICKET ALERT

  166. LT wrote:

    Tomorrow is Hillsong’s Christine Caine who according to Robert Morris will be “shucking the corn for the men” (what?)

    Okay Okay, please excuse me for going back to the beginning of all these comments, but I must lower my BP right now by expressing my near rage over this comment. I nearly choked on my coffee reading this. I would have clicked to follow Christine Caine’s Twitter and reported it this morning to her if I knew that this was said first hand. If you don’t know what “shucking the corn means” means, look it up urban dictionary, and please alert Christine. I am on vacation and not paying much attention to the time line of this thread, but if she is speaking today??? Oh I want to swear so so badly right now!!! Your “(what?)” should have been three capital letters over and over again. All of these men leaders are perves in my book now.

  167. Anonymous wrote:

    I do believe, however, that generally the Pentecostal Church is a less educated group, and is susceptible to hucksters like Driscoll. Watching TBN and other Pentecostals on TV (e.g. Duplantis, Angely etc.) merely confirms my belief.

    If the Pentecostals like Duplantis, they are going to ‘love’ Driscoll! He “sees things” you know.

    As a Bapti-costal, I appreciate more of the Pentecostal world than most Baptists – there is no doubt that Pentecostals are more open to the Holy Spirit. Most Baptists view the Spirit as something that gets on Pentecostals and they don’t want anything to do with it! There is a difference between “education” and “revelation”; education doesn’t produce one ounce of revelation. Some Pentecostals may have more spiritual discernment as a result of the emphasis they place on the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but as a group appear to be more gullible (than even the YRR!) when charlatans come to town. Driscoll will find a new market for speaking engagements and book sales among this bunch.

  168. Law Prof wrote:

    All those young hungry men wanting to come under some charismatic authority just might find the ultimate charismatic authority, possibly soon.

    Could be. Add to that the popularity of ideas about all religions are the same; roads to the top of the mountain; no real difference between you know what and you know who; all praise to internationalist globalized economic progress; and who has the latest message for the world about what WMD they claim to have just developed; and add chaotic times and fear based politics and it looks like a strong charismatic leader could present himself. That does not mean that it would have to be the ultimate big bad wolf but it sure could be something similar.

    I think you and HUG are on the right path, in other words.

  169. okrapod wrote:

    Women deal with the ‘not a real woman’ issue when they deal with infertility.

    Also women who are child free (the choose not to have kids), or women such as myself who aren’t very maternal and are very ambivalent about having kids.

    It seems like when you’re a woman, you are expected to be ga-ga crazy about babies and really want one yourself, and if you are not or do not, you are thought odd or heartless.

  170. Max wrote:

    What they have created is not counter-culture, but sub-culture of the world around it

    I agree with that, but I don’t think it’s just YRR guys, but a lot of non-demoninational mega churches that may or may not be YRR in theology.

    They also do things like put coffee shops in their buildings, have laser shows and big video monitors in their main service area on Sunday mornings, the pastor wears skinny jeans and maybe a goatee.

    Trying so hard to be hip to the hip is the opposite of hip and usually strikes me as desperation.

  171. @ Daisy:
    Agreed, Daisy – the abuses we are seeing in church form and substance are not confined to YRR ranks. The 21st century church at large is a mess! Praise God for the remnant – the genuine, not the counterfeit – who still love and act like Jesus … if you are fortunate enough to find where they are meeting in your area.

  172. Maybe it is just me, maybe I missed it in an above comments, all 200+, but the photo of the clowns with rifles….there are no magazines in the guns….thus, one would assume, no rounds….a gun without a bullet is well, just a fancy stick…..does this say something about their theology?

  173. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:
    @ Former Fundy:
    I always have liked the NIV Study Bible. Darn-it is being taken over since it is obvious we have not been able to figure out the Gospel on our own by actually reading the Bible.
    The Nones are looking better and better every day.

    Come on in, the water’s fine!

  174. Daisy wrote:

    They also do things like put coffee shops in their buildings, have laser shows and big video monitors in their main service area on Sunday mornings, the pastor wears skinny jeans and maybe a goatee.

    Oh, and don’t forget the cool “praise and worship” teams which strut like hoochie-coochies on stage … gyrating to the beat of whining guitars and loud drums!

    SBC-YRR church planters in my area seem to follow a common model when they come to town: (1) find a storefront in a prosperous yuppie area – give the church a cool name – never say “Southern Baptist” on the sign, (2) erect a stage, with the best light and sound systems you can get, (3) hire a cool “worship” leader (this is critical!), (4) recruit a band and “praise” team from the community to back up the cool worship leader (you can usually pirate them from neighboring churches), (5) paint the “sanctuary” black – when the lights dim, all eyes will focus on the stage, (6) prop the “lead pastor” center-stage on a stool – when the “sermon” starts, put a spotlight on him (pulpits are not allowed), (7) provide free coffee and donuts in a comfortable lounge in the foyer (WiFi is a must), (8) stock the sanctuary with ESV Bibles, (9) assemble an “elder” team (no one older than 30), (10) emphasize plurality of elders church governance at every opportunity – no congregational input allowed, (11) get attendees to sign a membership covenant ASAP, (11) organize “LifeGroups” with hand-picked leaders to corral and indoctrinate members during the week (reformed theology, of course), (12) shun dissenters as necessary – make them feel really bad when they are encountered in the community. When all these elements are in place, do church without God and the YRR-wannabes will come!

  175. Max wrote:

    Beth Moore appears to have the reformer’s blessing

    I think Beth Moore has gone Reformed. She’s been singing John Piper’s praises. Several Methodist churches have stopped using her materials because the notion of God causing everything, even evil, is creeping in.

  176. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
    Dr. Terrence Real argues that Western society in general encourages boys (and men) to be insecure. To believe that “manhood” is a very fragile and precarious thing, that has to be earned by effort or achievement or extreme sacrifice. And that no matter what they’ve done or accomplished, their manhood can be lost. Dr. Real also suggests that a primary way that men are encouraged to “achieve masculinity” is to reject whatever is deemed “feminine” (i.e sensitivity, nurture, compassion and the like).
    The Type Example of achieving that kind of masculinity (known as Hypermasculinity) is one Adolf Hitler.

    Who sneered at what he called “Compassion Cows”.

    I wish Christians would start pushing back at the Christian publishing industry because a lot of what gets published is just hooey hooey.

  177. roebuck wrote:

    I am going to take a break from TWW for a while, because I am so saddened by the news that comes down so regularly – I am weak, and it wears on me. Partly I’m saddened by the evil perpetrated by the venal worldly jerks that are exposed here, but partly I’m saddened that undiscerning brothers and sisters allow themselves to be taken in by these charlatans, these money-grubbing power-mongering control-freak serpents. No offense to snakes – I kind of like snakes.

    Hey, we all understand. That’s why I think it’s good to call out the good churches because there are a lot of them out there.

  178. @ Max:

    Don’t forget to stretch the sermon to as long as possible. Remove the children from the worship service and put them tucked away with crayons and cookies. Provide paper and pencils so the poor ignorant sheep can carefully take notes of any words falling from the mouth of the great one on the stool. Carefully school the presenter (I refuse to use the word preacher) in how to couch all communication at the sixth grade level. (I actually learned how to do this at one time-aim at a specific grade level that is.) Remove any reference to any personal responsibility the sheep may have other than to obey and conform. Be sure that everybody knows that they are hearing the ‘real’ gospel in a ‘biblical’ church presented by ‘called’ elders with carefully selected and limited readings from the ‘right’ translation only, and ‘anointed’ explanations lest anybody form any ideas of their own. And heaven forbid lest anybody think that the church on the opposite corner might have something worthwhile to say.

    Denounce as conformity to the world any concerns for society other than to change it while at the same time denouncing any personal or church responsibility to the least and the lost beyond basic how to get saved pamphlets. Promote to positions of prominence, if not authority, the biggest givers only. Feel free to reject any biblical teachings that do not fit the profile that the church wants to maintain-like for instance celibacy much less consecrated virginity Pauline style, or anything remotely charismo-pentecosto-personal. Don’t let the aristocracy (elders) mingle too much with the peasantry.

    And above all remember that once they have thrown out the Spirit and marginalized the Son and relegated the Father to some implacable ancient potentate idea then guess who that actually leaves in charge. The Elders!!

    I could go on, but I have to stop here and go throw up. It really can be this bad.

  179. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I’m afraid I still believe things that most here would consider heretical.

    Heresy is in the eye of the beholder I think. I still call myself a Christian based on my belief in the tenets of the Apostle’s Creed, and especially its supernatural components. It (the creed) affords me a wide latitude of conscience and intellectual freedom. Moreover, I believe in a live and let live ethos with regard to religious and doctrinal questions and how various people derive them from the Bible.

  180. @ Max:
    Friends of mine attended a Christmas service at a different church. The young cool hip pastor rode a hoverboard around stage trying desperately to relate his cool toy to the Gospel. They won’t ever be going back.

  181. Daisy wrote:

    @ Patti:
    I guess it depends on the context?
    According to Urban Dictionary, “shucking the corn” has naughty connotations, but according to this cooking site it does not:
    http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-husk-corn-quickly-cleanly-cooking-lessons-from-the-kitchn-192664

    Yes that is the terminology for preparing corn. I’ve used that term my whole life. That is why the men think that naive, good little Christian women would not know what he was saying, and they can get away with vulgar statements in disguise. Even if Robert Morris hasn’t a clue to what he just said, half the guys in the room know. Maybe he heard someone say it when a woman was going to speak before him and he just said something clueless. But I am sure that there are plenty of people who heard him say that who have a bad picture in their minds right now. Maybe I am so upset about it because I happened to like the study that my women’s bible study did with Christine Caine a few years ago.

  182. K.D. wrote:

    above comments, all 200+, but the photo of the clowns with rifles….there are no magazines in the guns….thus, one would assume, no rounds….a gun without a bullet is well, just a fancy stick…..does this say something about their theology?

    Too funny!
    Hmm. Wouldn’t this fit with the notion of “roles” in their gender paradigm? They get to pretend to be tough guys in their role. Who needs ammo? :o)

  183. Lydia wrote:

    The young cool hip pastor rode a hoverboard around stage trying desperately to relate his cool toy to the Gospel.

    I just had an image of that scene flash across my mind, with the hoverboard in flames! We used to instruct our children to be reverent in church … now the youth group is running things!

  184. Muff Potter wrote:

    I still call myself a Christian based on my belief in the tenets of the Apostle’s Creed, and especially its supernatural components.

    My word. That is almost the official stance of TEC. They told us in confirmation that TEC is ‘trying to hold it together’ by the creeds (apostles and NIcene) and the sacraments (baptist and communion) and they attach supernatural components to both sacraments. Other than that people’s doctrinal beliefs tend to be all over the place. They went on to say that some people find freedom in that but some are disappointed in that, but that is how it is none the less.

    Personally, I am really good with that idea-and with your self definition also.

  185. Anonymous wrote:

    All this to say that it makes perfect sense that a guy like Driscoll would morph toward a wing of the Christian faith that is not particularly educated.

    This just boggles. What about all the Acts 29 churches the SBC helped start that have Driscoll DNA all over them? He was considered theologically brilliant by many in SBC leadership. What about Akin, Mohler and Ezell who promoted him and his theology?

  186. okrapod wrote:

    And above all remember that once they have thrown out the Spirit and marginalized the Son and relegated the Father to some implacable ancient potentate idea then guess who that actually leaves in charge. The Elders!!

    I could go on, but I have to stop here and go throw up. It really can be this bad.

    It really is that bad in a YRR church I monitor in my area! The 29-year old “lead pastor” talks a lot about “God”, very little about Jesus, and hardly a mention of the Holy Spirit. The “elders” are in their 20s-30s. Nausea is a common sensation experienced by the true Bride of Christ which visits there. On the other hand, the crowd (not a congregation) is growing by leaps and bounds … go figure.

  187. Max wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    They also do things like put coffee shops in their buildings, have laser shows and big video monitors in their main service area on Sunday mornings, the pastor wears skinny jeans and maybe a goatee.
    Oh, and don’t forget the cool “praise and worship” teams which strut like hoochie-coochies on stage … gyrating to the beat of whining guitars and loud drums!
    SBC-YRR church planters in my area seem to follow a common model when they come to town: (1) find a storefront in a prosperous yuppie area – give the church a cool name – never say “Southern Baptist” on the sign, (2) erect a stage, with the best light and sound systems you can get, (3) hire a cool “worship” leader (this is critical!), (4) recruit a band and “praise” team from the community to back up the cool worship leader (you can usually pirate them from neighboring churches), (5) paint the “sanctuary” black – when the lights dim, all eyes will focus on the stage, (6) prop the “lead pastor” center-stage on a stool – when the “sermon” starts, put a spotlight on him (pulpits are not allowed), (7) provide free coffee and donuts in a comfortable lounge in the foyer (WiFi is a must), (8) stock the sanctuary with ESV Bibles, (9) assemble an “elder” team (no one older than 30), (10) emphasize plurality of elders church governance at every opportunity – no congregational input allowed, (11) get attendees to sign a membership covenant ASAP, (11) organize “LifeGroups” with hand-picked leaders to corral and indoctrinate members during the week (reformed theology, of course), (12) shun dissenters as necessary – make them feel really bad when they are encountered in the community. When all these elements are in place, do church without God and the YRR-wannabes will come!

    Just curious Max, what part of the nation are you in….don’t have to give a city, just state will work….

  188. Anonymous wrote:

    All this to say that it makes perfect sense that a guy like Driscoll would morph toward a wing of the Christian faith that is not particularly educated.

    This just boggles. What about all the Acts 29 churches the SBC helped start that have Driscoll DNA all over them? He was considered theologically brilliant by many in SBC leadership. What about Akin, Mohler and Ezell who promoted him and his theology? @ okrapod:
    What is TEC?

  189. Muff Potter wrote:

    It (the creed) affords me a wide latitude of conscience and intellectual freedom. Moreover, I believe in a live and let live ethos with regard to religious and doctrinal questions and how various people derive them from the Bible.

    I like this. Yes, I believe in the tenants of the Apostle’s Creed. And I am also firmly in the “live and let live” camp in regards to others’ Biblical beliefs. I was deeply hurt when my former minister told me, upon my return from my SBC grandfather’s funeral, that my grandpa didn’t make it to heaven since he wasn’t baptized in Jesus’ name and didn’t speak in tongues. I resolved then and there to never do that to someone else.

  190. @ Anonymous:

    Thank you, Anonymous.

    Thankfully I don’t have access to TBN or any other Christian TV — but I suspect what you see is contrived hyperbole just like so-called ‘reality tv’, rather than an accurate portrayal of the hundreds of millions of people they are purported to represent.

  191. Lydia wrote:

    What is TEC?

    “The Episcopal Church” There are some other names but this is apparently the most common.

  192. @ A.Stacy:
    I’m not really sure what you mean. Do you think that you are the boss of your wife? If not, then you have nothing in common with in that regard to Driscoll. But if you do think that you are the boss of your wife, then in my opinion you have more in common with him than you do with men who believe in equality.

  193. @ okrapod:
    AS I have told Muff before, I am practically Pelagian. And I would have never known that if the YRR had not accused people of being Pelagian heretics all over the place. I decided to read up on the poor man. There is not a lot there since most of his writings were destroyed but I like the overall idea of grown up humans being responsible for their behavior. :o)

  194. @ elastigirl:
    You are in good company with the charismatic Gordon Fee who is a prof emeritus at Regent. He also co wrote: How to Read the Bible for All It’s Worth. An excellent primer for scripture.

  195. @ Max:
    I did not even know what a hoverboard was. I had to look it up and saw many images of them going up in flames. I am not cool at all and like it that way. :o)

  196. Max wrote:

    It really is that bad in a YRR church I monitor in my area! The 29-year old “lead pastor” talks a lot about “God”, very little about Jesus, and hardly a mention of the Holy Spirit.

    As someone who’s done religious-themed far-future SF, let’s see how far I can run with that…

    Factor in Entropy over a couple more generations and the Calvinists will have only an abstract “God” who exists only as a set of axioms in CALVIN’s Institutes (i.e. their True SCRIPTURES). Otherwise, they will worship the Prophet CALVIN, reciting the Institutes chapter-and-verse like it was the KJV or Atlas Shrugged.

    Also factor in “More Reformed than Thou” over a few generations and you’ll get an analog to Totalitarian Islam except they actually DO worship their Prophet.

    I think I’ll suggest that to my writing partner for the space opera SF — as a burned-out preacher-man, he’s had to deal with Young, Restless, and Really Truly REFORMED Calvinjugend getting in his Arminian Apostate Heretic face.

  197. Lydia wrote:

    And I would have never known that if the YRR had not accused people of being Pelagian heretics all over the place.

    Did they now. I just fast forwarded in the section on Pelagius in the catholic encyclopedia on line, and while I am thinking that Pelagius went too far in denying grace to the extent that he did, the interesting thing to me was that the final adoption of the counter-pelagian dogmatic statements adopted by the catholic church contain statements that the YRR people would not agree with either.

    I guess that leaves them with yet a third position on this topic, which is not new for the reformed but I just find it interesting.

  198. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I was deeply hurt when my former minister told me, upon my return from my SBC grandfather’s funeral, that my grandpa didn’t make it to heaven since he wasn’t baptized in Jesus’ name and didn’t speak in tongues. I resolved then and there to never do that to someone else.

    Aren’t you glad that your former Pastor, John MacArthur, John Piper, C.J. Mahaney, Al Mohler, or the Holy See in Rome don’t get to decide your Grandpa’s fate beyond the grave?

  199. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I resolved then and there to never do that to someone else.

    You mean … gasp….not doing to others what is hateful and hurtful to you???
    What a concept huh?

  200. K.D. wrote:

    Maybe it is just me, maybe I missed it in an above comments, all 200+, but the photo of the clowns with rifles….there are no magazines in the guns….thus, one would assume, no rounds….a gun without a bullet is well, just a fancy stick…..does this say something about their theology?

    …… and their “corn”???

  201. LT wrote:

    Tomorrow is Hillsong’s Christine Caine who according to Robert Morris will be “shucking the corn for the men” (what?)

    @ Patti:
    Using the urban def, I think she needs to boil, fry, or grill the corn.

  202. @ okrapod:

    I think both the Catholics and Protestants are unfair to Pelagius. Remember, Augustine, a Catholic saint, called him a heretic. it is hard to get a grip on all the details of what he taught because it was not something the empire church could tolerate: too much human agency. He is the free will guy in the age of Gnosticism.

    Too bad so many of his writings were destroyed. My problem with calling him a heretic is that we mostly have his detractors to go on. Even the stuff that survived was ignored for centuries and not translated. EVen a paperback written about him in 1998 is now 70 bucks on Amazon! His commentary on Romans, finally translated, in hardcover is 150!

    He was pretty much blotted out of history much like the writings of Servetus. (While an arrogant impostor ahead of his time, he was brilliant in many ways as one who early on recognized a pulmonary system. He made Calvin angry by sending him corrections in the margins of his writings).

    From what I can ascertain is that Pelagius was too much free will for Augustine’s empire church. His interpretations gave people too much personal responsibility outside the church leaders. His view on grace seemed to be that us humans have the capacity/agency to respond to the truth of Jesus Christ and His grace is in obedience to the command of Love for which the Holy Spirit helps us. (This makes sense since even the demons believed the “right” things)

    Not exactly radical doctrine for us today but the very antithesis to Augustine who believed in what I call the magic “enabling” powers that “make” you respond. And that is what he defines as “grace”. This blew Augustine’s “original sin” doctrine out of the water.

    It seems fron what I can ascertain with what I have found is that Pelagius believed our flesh was weak and the Holy Spirit helped us resist sin.

    I think he gets a bad rap from history and those in power who had the gravitas to define him for us.

  203. I talked to 3 members of the Acts 29 board and they all assured me that North Valley is no longer an Acts 29 church. They also said that they do not believe that Mark should be a pastor until he repents.
    FWIW

  204. “Acts 29 may be getting set to bring back Mark Driscoll.”
    OK everyone; time to draw the circle and prepare the blue fire.

  205. Sammy Stiley wrote:

    They also said that they do not believe that Mark should be a pastor until he repents.

    Makes too much sense, doesn’t it?! His mind is so seared he probably doesn’t think he did anything to repent of. For starters, how about potty-mouth preaching, writing nasty books, plagiarism, abuse of staff, paying church funds to promote your books, leaving thousands of your followers disillusioned, etc., etc. I guess he feels it was God’s sovereign plan foreordained before the foundation of the world for him to behave so crude and that he came into the world with his bad self and spiky hair for such a time as this.

  206. @ Lydia:
    Lydia, you are one of the coolest commenters on here! Glad to hear that your friends decided not to return to First Church of the Hoverboard … they would have eventually observed the “lead pastor” fall on his posterior mid-sermon … God has a sense of humor like that.

  207. Sammy Stiley wrote:

    I talked to 3 members of the Acts 29 board and they all assured me that North Valley is no longer an Acts 29 church.

    North Valley Community Church (Phoenix AZ) is still listed as an Acts 29 church on their website church search http://www.acts29.com/find-churches/. Perhaps they just decided to drop them from membership since the unrepentant Driscoll appeared there on Sunday and haven’t updated the site yet.

  208. @ LT

    Thanks so much for your insightful and informative comment posts. You provided some thoughtful items to process. You must have a front row seat on this stuff. :) Thanks again for your perspective and for taking the time to record them here.

  209. Max wrote:

    North Valley Community Church (Phoenix AZ) is still listed as an Acts 29 church on their website church search http://www.acts29.com/find-churches/. Perhaps they just decided to drop them from membership since the unrepentant Driscoll appeared there on Sunday and haven’t updated the site yet.

    Or they are just ignorant or flat out liars. Either would fit the profile of the average A29 leader, IMO.

  210. Max wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    They also do things like put coffee shops in their buildings, have laser shows and big video monitors in their main service area on Sunday mornings, the pastor wears skinny jeans and maybe a goatee.

    Oh, and don’t forget the cool “praise and worship” teams which strut like hoochie-coochies on stage … gyrating to the beat of whining guitars and loud drums!

    I’ll take your “hoochie-coochie” reference and raise you one.

    From a recent Internet Monk thread; Praise & Worship(TM) where the Worship Minister(TM) saw “Heaven is Las Vegas” (the ending sequence to Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life) one time too many:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A6dtCNcsXU

    (This was actually a Christmas service at a mega called “Hillsong”…)

  211. Max wrote:

    Glad to hear that your friends decided not to return to First Church of the Hoverboard …

    After today’s news headlines from the White House, there are going to be a LOT of “First Churches of Zardoz” for them to try instead.

    “FOR ZARDOZ YOUR GOD GAVE YOU THE GIFT OF THE GUN.
    THE GUN IS GOOD!”
    (liturgical response): “The Gun Is Good!”

    (Can’t get any weirder than RL…)

  212. Come to think of it, what are those Hipster Pastors/Elders in the pic up top doing with their Zardozian Ritual Objects?

  213. Garland wrote:

    “Acts 29 may be getting set to bring back Mark Driscoll.”
    OK everyone; time to draw the circle and prepare the blue fire.

    Heh, heh! Now that you mention it, Driscoll’s refusal to just go away reminds me of Tilda Swanson (the White Witch) and her recurring cameos in the “Narnia” movies.

    (Her appearance in the second movie wasn’t such a surprise, but when she showed up in “Dawn Treader”, I thought to myself, “Again!? Why can’t she just stay dead?” Nothing against the actress, but why do they have to keep bringing up her character?)

  214. Sammy Stiley wrote:

    They also said that they do not believe that Mark should be a pastor until he repents.
    FWIW

    Repenting would be good; however, it will not qualify Driscoll to be a pastor again.

    FWIW :)

  215. @ Lydia:

    I used to sign onto the whole Augustinian enchilada. But no more. The turning point for me was when I no longer presupposed an angry god at the fall of humankind, but rather, God as a horrified and heartsick parent at the malevolent forces his beautiful kids set in motion.

  216. Bridget wrote:

    Repenting would be good; however, it will not qualify Driscoll to be a pastor again.

    Repentance would be good; forgiveness from others following that repentance would be good; restoration to ministry would not be good.

    The Acts 29 Board said it right when they expelled Driscoll and his Mars Hill church from A29 membership “… our board and network have been the recipients of countless shots and dozens of fires directly linked to you and what we consider ungodly and disqualifying behavior … Ample time has been given for repentance, change, and restitution, with none forthcoming.” http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/08/08/acts-29-network-removes-co-founder-mark-driscoll-and-mars-hill-church-from-membership/

    Nothing has changed. A multitude of sins disqualified him from ministry. Driscoll is in denial as he launches an unrepentant comeback. Those who give him a platform are taking a tremendous risk. Forgive – yes. Restore to ministry … NO.

  217. Muff Potter wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I’m afraid I still believe things that most here would consider heretical.

    Heresy is in the eye of the beholder I think. I still call myself a Christian based on my belief in the tenets of the Apostle’s Creed, and especially its supernatural components. It (the creed) affords me a wide latitude of conscience and intellectual freedom. Moreover, I believe in a live and let live ethos with regard to religious and doctrinal questions and how various people derive them from the Bible.

    I also believe that the creed contains all that is necessary to be Christian.
    The problem, as I see it, is that all too many people out there believe that they are capable of defining better than the apostles ever could….like ol’ MD himslef, for example.

  218. Lydia wrote:

    @ Max:
    I did not even know what a hoverboard was. I had to look it up and saw many images of them going up in flames. I am not cool at all and like it that way. :o)

    How bad is it that I had an instant image of the “cool” pastor suddenly becoming very heated indeed? And snickered??

  219. Max wrote:

    Repentance would be good; forgiveness from others following that repentance would be good; restoration to ministry would not be good.

    Agreed.

  220. Garland wrote:

    “Acts 29 may be getting set to bring back Mark Driscoll.”
    OK everyone; time to draw the circle and prepare the blue fire.

    The Cool Kids are prepping their Queen for Homecoming.
    They have never left high school.
    They will never leave high school.
    And they will NEVER let any of the rest of us leave THEIR high school.

  221. Max wrote:

    I guess he feels it was God’s sovereign plan foreordained before the foundation of the world for him to behave so crude and that he came into the world with his bad self and spiky hair for such a time as this.

    See how great Predestination is?
    Divine Right to get away with anything and everything.
    Praise be to Calvin!

  222. Max wrote:

    The Acts 29 Board said it right when they expelled Driscoll and his Mars Hill church from A29 membership “… our board and network have been the recipients of countless shots and dozens of fires directly linked to you and what we consider ungodly and disqualifying behavior … Ample time has been given for repentance, change, and restitution, with none forthcoming.

    i.e. “IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT! IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT! IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT!”

  223. @ zooey111:

    “How bad is it that I had an instant image of the “cool” pastor suddenly becoming very heated indeed? And snickered??”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I think it’s what most people feel, although their mental/emotional programming doesn’t allow for honest appraisal and the courage of its convictions.

    you’re the healthy one.

  224. @ zooey111:

    “The problem, as I see it, is that all too many people out there believe that they are capable of defining better than the apostles ever could….like ol’ MD himslef, for example.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    or, in another lense, the problem is money and power. the more convoluted they can make it, the more they make people dependent on them, and the more money there is for them.

    careers, expensive education, and institutions, all symbiotically linked, are at stake.

    (whereas my freedom of thought is at stake, so I just fa#t (ed.) in their general direction.

  225. zooey111 wrote:

    I also believe that the creed contains all that is necessary to be Christian.

    Ever been involved with Calvary Chapel? According to them (oops! the ‘bible’ as they see it), the tenets of the Creed are not enough. You have to sign onto and believe as they believe in totality in order to ‘know Jesus’ and be ‘saved’.
    In their paradigm, Potter is not ‘saved’, nor is his name written in the ‘book of life’, and at the great white throne judgement, he will be cast into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet.

  226. Muff Potter wrote:

    zooey111 wrote:
    I also believe that the creed contains all that is necessary to be Christian.
    Ever been involved with Calvary Chapel? According to them (oops! the ‘bible’ as they see it), the tenets of the Creed are not enough. You have to sign onto and believe as they believe in totality in order to ‘know Jesus’ and be ‘saved’.
    In their paradigm, Potter is not ‘saved’, nor is his name written in the ‘book of life’, and at the great white throne judgement, he will be cast into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet.

    I used to attend a CC in the 80s. CC is, in my opinion, a vicious cult with Christian accoutrements. Not to say there aren’t Christians within CC, there most certainly are (which makes it all the worse, because their ministries are severely affected by contact with CC) but it is set up on a paradigm–the idolatry of men and systems and ungodly authority–that is distinctly and unequivocally hostile to the authority and headship of Christ.

  227. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    .e. “IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT! IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT! IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT!”

    Yeah. CYA. They went along on that gravy train for a long time before it became too embarrassing. WE found out Chandler is not different at all sans the vulgarity. He loves his authority and control as much as Driscoll did.
    Muff Potter wrote:

    I used to sign onto the whole Augustinian enchilada. But no more. The turning point for me was when I no longer presupposed an angry god at the fall of humankind, but rather, God as a horrified and heartsick parent at the malevolent forces his beautiful kids set in motion.

    Me too.

    As to Pelagius, I would hate for my descendents to judge or define me only by what my detractors, who thought I was a heretic, said of me.

  228. @ Max:

    My friends were expecting Silent Night and candles. :o) Another thing that blew them away was their host (cousins who attend the mega) were flipping out that they actually talked to the pastors. Evidently the pastors were at the door greeting people, which is unheard of there. My friends spoke to them for a moment and went in. Their cousins were so excited that they got that close to “them” and actually talked to the big cheeses for a few seconds. My friends were taken aback. They did not even know who they were and thought their grown cousins were acting like teens at a Justin Beiber concert.

    Cult of personality Christianity. It is a cancer. Too many grown ups have it.

  229. dee wrote:

    I agree, for either man or woman!

    I would be miserable as a man, husband and a father if that was not the case.

    Patti wrote:

    Do you think that you are the boss of your wife?

    Holy snot rags… Really?

    patriciamc wrote:

    We just think that that mentality is not Biblical.

    Totally agree.

  230. Lydia wrote:

    Cult of personality Christianity. It is a cancer. Too many grown ups have it.

    Welcome to the American church! There are so many Christian celebrities out there, it’s tough to decide which one to follow! The early church also struggled with this a bit and Paul had to set them straight. His words are still relevant today:

    “For I have been informed about you, my brothers and sisters, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are quarrels and factions among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you says, “I am [a disciple] of Paul,” or “I am [a disciple] of Apollos,” or “I am [a disciple] of Cephas (Peter),” or “I am [a disciple] of Christ.” Has Christ been divided [into different parts]? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul? [Certainly not!]” (1 Cor 1:11-13)

    It’s not Charisma that we should follow, but Christ.

  231. Patti wrote:

    Tomorrow is Hillsong’s Christine Caine who according to Robert Morris will be “shucking the corn for the men” (what?)
    Okay Okay, please excuse me for going back to the beginning of all these comments, but I must lower my BP right now by expressing my near rage over this comment. I nearly choked on my coffee reading this. I would have clicked to follow Christine Caine’s Twitter and reported it this morning to her if I knew that this was said first hand. If you don’t know what “shucking the corn means” means, look it up urban dictionary, and please alert Christine. I am on vacation and not paying much attention to the time line of this thread, but if she is speaking today??? Oh I want to swear so so badly right now!!! Your “(what?)” should have been three capital letters over and over again. All of these men leaders are perves in my book now.

    Here is Robert Morris’ verbatim quote. At the 9:00 am service on 1-3-16 at the beginning of the service Robert is announcing the guest speakers for the Gateway First Conference on January 3-6, 2016.

    Robert says: “Uh, muh, Tuesday night, Chris Caine. Uh, all of you ladies I’m sure are familiar with Chris Caine, but you men, you need to come, too, if you wanna hear a woman that can ‘shuck the corn’ – uh, she can do it.”
    .
    I doubt that he meant to be that vulgar but his comment seemed to genuinely surprise some as there was sort of this awkward hesitant response as I am sure more people besides me were saying “What?” I had no idea what that meant but it sounded weird and possibly wrong. Even if it were just a double entendre, he was on the altar giving a sermon so he should’ve picked a different euphemism. Had I known that it was that deeply vulgar I would not have quoted the statement here on TWW.
    .
    Robert does sometime try to be hip and edgy and awkwardly says things like “whatever downloads your app” or says “hashtag (insert a phrase)” while hitting his two forefingers on each hand against the other to form a gang sign type hashtag. So he may have heard that expression somewhere else and not fully understood how shocking it really was. Maybe he just thought it sounded edgy or funny.
    .
    There are, however, other signs of vulgarity infiltrating the church. Gateway worship participated in New River Life Church’s Youth Conference last year. That’s Ergun Caner’s church in Weatherford (outskirts of DFW). They use Gateway resources and staff throughout their church and their youth pastors had a dance-off at that Youth Conference to Soulja Boy’s song Crank It.
    .
    I couldn’t believe it. I heard some of the lyrics and thought “NO WAY!” Then I looked up all the lyrics, which did require a trip to Urban Dictionary. Don’t look it up. It is so vile. But I think this is similar to what you were saying about some of the male leaders winking and nodding about doing something naughty – like look what we got away with?

    I cannot imagine these pastors on the day that video gets played back on the Judgment Seat of Christ and those Youth Pastors have to explain themselves. “but dude, you can’t save tweenies unless you’re edgy and ratchet! We did it for you Jesus! You can’t tell me that Peter and John didn’t wear high quality urban street wear back in the day?”

  232. Max wrote:

    D
    Oh, and don’t forget the cool “praise and worship” teams which strut like hoochie-coochies on stage … gyrating to the beat of whining guitars and loud drums!
    SBC-YRR church planters in my area seem to follow a common model when they come to town: (1) find a storefront in a prosperous yuppie area – give the church a cool name – never say “Southern Baptist” on the sign, (2) erect a stage, with the best light and sound systems you can get, (3) hire a cool “worship” leader (this is critical!), (4) recruit a band and “praise” team from the community to back up the cool worship leader (you can usually pirate them from neighboring churches), (5) paint the “sanctuary” black – when the lights dim, all eyes will focus on the stage, (6) prop the “lead pastor” center-stage on a stool – when the “sermon” starts, put a spotlight on him (pulpits are not allowed), (7) provide free coffee and donuts in a comfortable lounge in the foyer (WiFi is a must), (8) stock the sanctuary with ESV Bibles, (9) assemble an “elder” team (no one older than 30), (10) emphasize plurality of elders church governance at every opportunity – no congregational input allowed, (11) get attendees to sign a membership covenant ASAP, (11) organize “LifeGroups” with hand-picked leaders to corral and indoctrinate members during the week (reformed theology, of course), (12) shun dissenters as necessary – make them feel really bad when they are encountered in the community. When all these elements are in place, do church without God and the YRR-wannabes will come!

    Great list Max! There are a couple of new trends that are emerging that will be shortly added to this list.
    First, ESV is out. The Message is in.
    Second, Prophecy will dominate. Hard to argue with God directly as channeled by your leaders. Prophecy is so popular now that it is being taught to children as young as preschool.
    Third, they won’t use the word Pentecostal but most things Pentecostal will be fully embraced.
    Fourth, always remind the flock that only the head pastor picks all the elders by hand because that’s what God told us to do while instructing Moses. If one of your elders start growing a conscience, bring two more in who are fully committed to you personally to outvote each elder showing integrity. You can vote out the conscience growing ones altogether later if they don’t get with the program.
    Fifth, and this is a very recent trend, in addition to your hoochie mamas mentioned above, some of the top leaders in worship are now dressing in long, floor length flowing black garments with black lipstick and black hair and black nail polish. They are turning worship into something out of Charmed or Hocus Pocus.

  233. @ LT:

    I find all of the detailed information you provide very helpful. Can I ask how you keep such close tabs on these guys and their comings and goings? Where do you find this stuff?

    Thanks!

  234. What is both frustrating and confusing for me are the statements in Dee’s post, in italics, about men and women complementing each other. Every sentence in bold could be backed up by Scripture. I accepted Christ as a small child, was raised by Christian parents, have attended church and Bible Studies my whole life, but before reading TWW, I would have read through that statement and not batted an eye.

    It seems “Biblical” and “right”. I’m shocked they didn’t provide Bible verses to back up these statements and give them more credibility. If I, who has a pretty solid knowledge of the Scriptures, could be fooled, what about those younger and weaker in the faith??

    I am also confused about an issue that I see and hear about in YRR, etc. They are big on men being in charge and women constantly submitting. That would be considered going against the ‘world’ and yet the pastors dress hip, swear during sermons, and are married to pop culture. All of that is definitely being part of the ‘world’. Am I the only one to find this odd? How can they preach and promote such conservative and liberal ideas at the same time?

    My family is at an interesting crossroads at church. Long story short, our pastor (who is burnt out and left a trail of strained relationships) is ready to retire. A seeker-friendly church in the next town over, who is associated with Converge, is planning on taking over our church. This seeker-friendly church has the parking attendants, walls painted black, loud rock band music, is ‘culturally’ relevant, etc. At our church, current Sunday attendance: 100. Average age of congregants: 60. We’re in for quite a ride.

  235. Mourning Dove wrote:

    They are big on men being in charge and women constantly submitting. That would be considered going against the ‘world’ and yet the pastors dress hip, swear during sermons, and are married to pop culture. All of that is definitely being part of the ‘world’. Am I the only one to find this odd? How can they preach and promote such conservative and liberal ideas at the same time?

    With everything they preach and practice, assume that their default position will be raw self interest. If you follow this maxim, you will invariably be correct.

    Thus, their theology is in no manner conservative or liberal at bottom; whether a position they take falls on the conservative or liberal side of the spectrum is mere happenstance, it is all about whether a given position will serve the interests of the leadership.

    Biblical accuracy is irrelevant, as are ethics and truth. No, I have not gone far enough: these considerations are not merely irrelevant to them, they are hateful things to them. This is why when you attempt to hold a YRR or charismatic celeb leader to the same standards as anyone else in their personal ethics, the leaders and sycophants react with such venom.

    So, to the point:

    1). If you can render irrelevant the voice of 50 to 55% of the congregation, the women, it’s easier to centralize control over the balance, the men. There is something not-so-vaguely sexual about dominating a woman, this is a major selling point to that balance (Driscoll made this one of the central themes of his erstwhile ministry). Ergo, you neutralize roughly half your congregation and give the other half an offer they can scarcely refuse: a willing, subservient spouse and a theological hammer to enforce it.

    2). They want to be something big, they want to have big power and big toys. One needs to do certain things to pack an auditorium, to build that Furtick house and get the $400,000 book deals. You must pander to the crowds; every entertainer in Hollywood, or in the Globe Theater 400 years ago knows.

  236. Mourning Dove wrote:

    My family is at an interesting crossroads at church.

    “Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights along the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand” (Prov 8:1-2).

    While there is still a glimmer of a chance, those 60 year old folks at your church need to raise a voice and block the impending takeover of their church. Once the seeker-friendly boys roll into town, everything will change … no room for the old guys. Sometimes, it’s OK to say “Hell No” in church! If your church members are uninformed or misinformed about the train coming their way, inform them. If they are willingly ignorant, there’s not much that can be done about the train wreck to come.

  237. Lydia wrote:

    Their cousins were so excited that they got that close to “them” and actually talked to the big cheeses for a few seconds.

    Gag

  238. Law Prof wrote:

    Thus, their theology is in no manner conservative or liberal at bottom; whether a position they take falls on the conservative or liberal side of the spectrum is mere happenstance, it is all about whether a given position will serve the interests of the leadership.

    Thank you! This is becoming more and more obvious each passing day.

  239. Law Prof wrote:

    here is something not-so-vaguely sexual about dominating a woman, this is a major selling point to that balance (Driscoll made this one of the central themes of his erstwhile ministry). Ergo, you neutralize roughly half your congregation and give the other half an offer they can scarcely refuse: a willing, subservient spouse and a theological hammer to enforce it.

    Yes. You are on a roll!

  240. Mourning Dove wrote:

    This seeker-friendly church has the parking attendants, walls painted black, loud rock band music, is ‘culturally’ relevant, etc. At our church, current Sunday attendance: 100. Average age of congregants: 60. We’re in for quite a ride.

    Let me guess. Your building is paid for?

  241. Law Prof wrote:

    their theology is in no manner conservative or liberal at bottom; whether a position they take falls on the conservative or liberal side of the spectrum is mere happenstance, it is all about whether a given position will serve the interests of the leadership

    I asked a young reformed pastor at an SBC church plant near me why he had decided to become a New Calvinist. Both his father and his grandfather were Southern Baptist pastors which preached an whosoever-will message, rather than the Doctrines of Grace. His answer was frank and to the point “The reformed churches are growing.” Thus, he had found a niche that would attract young folks, rather than having to labor in the field to reach the lost. As you say, his theology was neither conservative or liberal, but whatever worked.

  242. If I had or ever will hear profanity spoken in the pulpit of any kind, I would stand up (if I could) for a few seconds, then loudly leave the auditorium. I might be tempted to stand outside the church the next Sunday and have a sign that said “Profanity spoken here”. It doesn’t belong in the church in any which way. Now, I was raised Pentecostal and am now Baptist. I guess they didn’t have the right teaching class back in the day on “How to Speak in Tongues” and I never got it right, so to speak. I don’t believe you need a so called class to speak in tongues. Paul surely didn’t. Oh yeah, they don’t preach about him much do they? Pardon me for being a bit snarky today, but my foot is hurting pretty bad. I think I might post this same thing even if I wasn’t in pain.

  243. Harley wrote:

    If I had or ever will hear profanity spoken in the pulpit of any kind, I would stand up (if I could) for a few seconds, then loudly leave the auditorium.

    We once visited a church to hear a prominent TV minister speak – the place was packed to standing room only. Shortly into his “sermon”, I was thinking this message just doesn’t ring clearly … when a fellow a few rows behind us stood up and shouted “That ain’t right!” I looked around just in time to see church bouncers hustling him out the door. We left more silently, but feeling the same way. The multitude seemed OK with the “man of God” … the fellow causing the disturbance was one of a few who knew truth from error and was bold enough to say so … I guess that’s why they call it the “remnant.”

  244. Max wrote:

    His answer was frank and to the point “The reformed churches are growing.” Thus, he had found a niche that would attract young folks, rather than having to labor in the field to reach the lost. As you say, his theology was neither conservative or liberal, but whatever worked.

    Pure pragmatism, but not in terms of serving the Lord, rather in terms of serving the self. I can remember when an elder in a church that became part of Newfrontiers (neocalvinist authoritarian, in the same tribe as SGM, 9Marks and A29) how very pragmatic they were, and it was all about leadership and a hierarchy that would exalt them while using the name of Jesus to disguise what they were doing.

  245. Max wrote:

    Harley wrote:
    If I had or ever will hear profanity spoken in the pulpit of any kind, I would stand up (if I could) for a few seconds, then loudly leave the auditorium.
    We once visited a church to hear a prominent TV minister speak – the place was packed to standing room only. Shortly into his “sermon”, I was thinking this message just doesn’t ring clearly … when a fellow a few rows behind us stood up and shouted “That ain’t right!” I looked around just in time to see church bouncers hustling him out the door. We left more silently, but feeling the same way. The multitude seemed OK with the “man of God” … the fellow causing the disturbance was one of a few who knew truth from error and was bold enough to say so … I guess that’s why they call it the “remnant.”

    What’s too bad is I’ll just bet you that there were others, like you and the unfortunate truth teller, who felt uneasy as well, and if enough had stood up and done likewise, the ushers would’ve been overwhelmed, the cult leader routed.

  246. Law Prof wrote:

    What’s too bad is I’ll just bet you that there were others, like you and the unfortunate truth teller, who felt uneasy as well, and if enough had stood up and done likewise, the ushers would’ve been overwhelmed, the cult leader routed.

    Make an Example of one and the rest will fall right into line.

  247. Law Prof wrote:

    There is something not-so-vaguely sexual about dominating a woman, this is a major selling point to that balance (Driscoll made this one of the central themes of his erstwhile ministry). Ergo, you neutralize roughly half your congregation and give the other half an offer they can scarcely refuse: a willing, subservient spouse and a theological hammer to enforce it.

    Half the congregation Feels the Whip, and the other half Holds the Whip by Divine Right.

  248. Lydia wrote:

    Their cousins were so excited that they got that close to “them” and actually talked to the big cheeses for a few seconds.

    “SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
    — Leon Uris, describing a Nuremberg Rally in his novel Armageddon: A Novel of Berlin