TWW has received information from a credible source that Tony Jones has received temporary custody of all of their children. Please pray for Julie and the children. It does appear to me that some progressive men are not any different than the patriarchs when it comes to respect for women and children.
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Dissecting Christian Trends
I wonder if it was the judge who used to be in practice with Tony Jones’ attorney.
A judge who awards custody to a diagnosed NPD. The cruelty is astounding. Could it be ignorance of what an NPD diagnosis means for those kids?
I feel nauseous.
@ Lydia:
I would not be surprised if there was a contingent of progressive men, and a couple of progressive females who wrote letters in favor of Tony Jones and Courtney. It’s amazing how many of the progressive crowd use Courtney to take their photos. By doing so, they help break the heart of a mother.
It’s weird how few people are aware of what’s involved with personality disorders. Same thing with sexual abuse. As if cultural blind spots.
Judges need better education. I’m also reminded of the judge in the Sitler (Wilson) case. Sooo much damage gets done because they are ignorant.
@ Patrice:
At some point, i think it benefits them. NPD’s are the most diabolically clever people in the world. If you noticed many of the Tony Jones apologist came out saying he had a disorder and we were not being fair to him. Yet his disorder did not disqualify him for ministry or custody. Strange how that works.
So he gets to do evil (spiritual wife vs legal wife, trying have her committed, etc) and make a living selling Jesus.
I hope Rachel Held Evans did not vouch for him to the judge. Wonder if she would tell us?
“It does appear to me that some progressive men are not any different than the patriarchs when it comes to respect for women and children.”
My experience has been people are screwed up irrespective of ideology or professed beliefs.
@ Ramesh:
They don’t have to be. It is a choice irrespective of beliefs. Even an NPD has a choice in behavior.
Pigs are pigs regardless of the pen they come from.
@ Patrice:
Yes, this sounds like abject ignorance on the pwrt of the judge. I am very sorry.
Lydia wrote:
That is no exaggeration Lydia. NPD is a very serious mental disorder. It’s not like the throw-away term narcissistic, which implies loads of selfies and mirror kissing – which while annoying isn’t that harmful. NPD’s are, as you say, diabolical and very destructive. I fear for these kids. I hope “temporary” is just that. It’s possible that the NPD just wants to hurt/control Julie and maybe as the demands of young children infringe on Tony’s needs he may reconsider. There are different numbers via different studies, but some studies suggest that people are almost twice as likely to be bipolar as NPD. It’s that rare. Judges need to understand both the rarity and the severity of this disorder.
How is it even possible that a father would get even temporary custody? That is so scary! Usually to lose custody of one’s children one either has to be simply the world’s worst mum, or the children express a wish to stay with their father. This is beyond sad, let’s pray temporary indeed means temporary.
Lydia wrote:
I’ve no idea if there’s been collusion with the Jones’ judge but after reading/listening through Sitler court stuff, his judge seemed decent but ignorant of the cost of abuse to children.
Ya, Christians in both groups benefited, in spite of their actions being evil. And simply choosing to not rock-the-boat generally comes from fear of losing something.
If RHE wrote a supportive letter for Tony, I doubt she’d ever tell the public. I think she learned a lesson from the public criticism she received, to remain silent. She couldn’t gather up her courage to face a malignant narcissist and who would want to be reminded of that? Bah
LT, your comment is spot on. People who haven’t encountered it have no idea. And I get so weary of the term “narcissist’ being equated with selfies. The two have nothing in common.
I also hope may reconsider as he gets bored with this “victory” now that he has gotten his way and moves on to some other target (that’s harsh to wish for, I know). This is vile.
Patrice wrote:
Genuine question, should this count in a court of law? I know character witnesses are sometimes allowed, but shouldn’t the judge in this case be applying the law as impartially as humanly possible? Are the interests of the children paramount?
I’m afraid RHE, regardless of doctrinal disagreements I might have with her, strikes me as having zilch spiritual discernment. If some of the emergent stuff doesn’t ring any warning bells, nothing will, let alone some of the other things she espouses. I hope neither she nor any like her has had any material impact on the deliberations of the court.
I hope the judge gets informs and wakes up. I also hope the judge isn’t being lenient or playing favorites just because of TJ’s fame. I don’t think TJ will give up those kids just because he gets bored with them. I think this is is a pride thing and a control thing. He MUST have those children and he will fight for them whether he and his “spiritual wife” really want them or not.
Ken wrote:
I don’t think it should matter but it sometimes does. If a slew of supportive letters from “reputable” people goes to a judge, it can cast further doubt on less-clear accusations from the other side. It can also influence length of conviction, as Doug Wilson’s letters likely did for Wight and Sitler.
Yeah, interests of the children are paramount. It is in the law, actually. Imagine what Jones/lawyers have done to cause the judge to award custody to a diagnosed malignant narcissist. I suppose there are worse parents: child molesters and murderers :eyeroll:
If I remember correctly, a big part of the problem is that Julie has no more money for lawyers, so she’s being shabbily under-represented. Tony is apparently cash-plenty; he’s spending wads. I wonder where it all comes from.
Re RHE, she was young when I first came across her writings and I had hopes for her maturing.
numo wrote:
Me too, numo.
If Julie is reading here, my whole heart goes out to you. I pray to God that you have very good friends who won’t let you go alone but will continue to love/hold you.
@ Clarissa:
Not true. A myth. You need to read Phyllis Chesslers book. A whopping 70 percent of men who fight for custody, win. The difference is that it is rare for fathers to go for sole custody.
@ Patrice:
It is shocking but true: You get the justice you can pay for and not only does Tony have the money but the community supports as past chaplain for police, etc. Everything he has done to her, many have helped him along from his celeb Christian colleagues to law enforcement.
Lord have mercy.
This saddens and disgusts me. I can only imagine what will happen to those “progressive men” when they get up to heaven and have to explain this to God (specifically about the part where this is all somehow “Biblical™” and glorifies Him.)
Lydia wrote:
And sometimes they should get sole custody. The courts should make their determination solely on who can provide the best overall parenting and life for the child if sole custody is awarded. There are many unfit male parents and many unfit female parents. In either case I hesitate to say fathers and mothers. I would hate to be a family court judge who has to make those determinations.
Well, that sent my stomach into knots.
Lord, please strengthen Julie during this turmoil caused by depraved mortals. Forgive us, Lord, forgive us.
@ Gram3:
I agree. I was only making the point it is rare for fathers to sue for sole custody. Not as rare as it once was but rare in contrast to the number of divorces with children.
Julie is in a place she has to prove she is the better parent with fewer resources. In this particular situation not even an diagnosis of NPD protected her. Personally, I think Tony and Courtney needed this for business reasons. Image is everything in their Jesus business. They need to prove it is good to oppress Julie. See, the courts agree. Julie has a higher standard to reach.
Lydia wrote:
Code of Blue; One Hand Washes the Other.
Tony to Julie: “I. WIN.”
Lydia wrote:
“Doing the LOOOORD’s Work.”
Patrice wrote:
I wonder if ToJo’s sock puppets and tithing units spammed the judge?
ToJo calls from the pulpit (in the name of the LOOORD), and the mutton-on-the-hoof in the pews bleat and obey.
Nancy2 wrote:
Remember Judge Ito?
Patrice wrote:
“TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
All they’d need to do is forward all those creepy supportive letters they put on-line after the Naked Pastor combox broke the story open. Easy-peasy.
This is very sad.
Julie, my thoughts are with you today.
‘You must not deal unjustly in judgment: you must neither show partiality to the poor nor honour the rich. You must judge your fellow citizen fairly’.
Such was the law of Moses, but being handicapped in getting justice if you do not have enough money for a good lawyer is not confined to the US, it’s very much part of life on this side of the pond. You would hope that a judge with all his experience would be able to use his discetion to give justice to a righteous cause poorly argued by an inexperienced lawyer.
Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Well said.
dee wrote:
Whether it be religion or politics many don’t live out their lives in truth but only put on a gloss of caring or being nice people. In the case of progressives they advocate for the downtrodden so therefore they don’t have to actually live that one out in their own lives. It ends up being just another legalism along with the associated hypocritical and superficial adherence.
Sigh, so sad.
This is deeply disturbing news, and seems to show just how sick the system is that perpetuates this kind of so-called “progressive” faith and practice. As @Bill Kinnon said, “Lord have mercy.”
I can’t imagine Julie having to go through this never-ending battle.
Here is the link to the GoFundMe account for Julie: https://www.gofundme.com/ko5bn8?utm_content=buffer30c17&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
My thoughts & prayers are with Julie and her children. This news hurts.
Sadly, just in time for the holidays.
The NPD is skilled at distorting facts. I doubt he won the case by simply distorting facts to make the case that “I’m superior”. He also had to distort facts that “Julie is inferior”. The latter is what got him sole custody. The latter is where the heinous evil is.
JYJames wrote:
I wonder if the timing was deliberate on ToJo’s part.
I remember during an inheritance feud with my NPD brother years ago (he won, naturally), his shyster would send the legal nastygrams requiring IMMEDIATE Reply Or Else timed to arrive the day before a three-day holiday weekend when everything that could reply was closed, automatically triggering the Or Else. Every one timed for maximum effect, maximum disruption, and maximum suffering.
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
Once she realizes that ToJo’s kind ALWAYS Wins and her kind ALWAYS loses, and accepts that ToJo is a Winner and she is a Loser, and always knuckles under to him immediately without resisting (“Woman, Submit!”), we won’t have a problem, will we?
Just like my brother and me.
“Be a User, be an Abuser —
Be a WINNER, not a Loser!”
brad/futuristguy wrote:
During the Cold War, wasn’t Progressive(TM) the Newspeak for Marxism-Leninism and its Red Fanboys out here? Semantics, My Dear Wormwood…
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
OJ’s star judge?
Heartsick. So sorry, and praying.
Nancy2 wrote:
“If the glove don’t fit, you must acquit”
Lydia wrote:
Although I don’t have data, my impression is that this is true. I do not remember any divorced dads having custody when I was younger, but hopefully those kinds of decisions will be increasingly made on the best situation for the kids instead of other considerations.
On a hidden ideology in the family court ‘system’. This is Australian context but you’ll see the parallels. As Bill Kinnon said, Lord have mercy.
https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/november/1446296400/jess-hill/suffer-children
Gram3 wrote:
I really do wish I could share this view. Unfortunately I don’t think we have evolved very far when it comes to advancing ourselves as a species, and the destruction of children continues.
Clarissa wrote:
I don’t mean to be disagreeable, but this is not the case. See the link I referenced above. I believe it’s a similar in your neck of the woods.
@ Haitch:
Heartbreaking reading.
@ Haitch:
There is a similar ideology here in family court. It is called “alienation”. And abusers use it all the time.
I want to offer hope to Julie.
Your ex-husband will be able to bamboozle your children for a while, but once they hit their late teens and early 20’s, they will be able to evaluate it for themselves.
Your attitude is key. No matter what your kids say about you, you need to say, “I respect your opinion. You are old enough to make your own decisions. Someday, when we are all calm, feel free to ask me my side of the story and I will tell you. But not right now.”
I was married to a narcissistic guy, and my kids eventually figured it out themselves.
Today…years later…my kids have a clear picture of each parent. Yesterday on Thanksgiving, they could have gone to either parent’s home. They chose mine, as they have for years. They know their dad doesn’t have any real emotional commitment to them.
O.k. now it’s time for all us to put our money where out mouth is and help Julie financially.
Julie, I am so, so sorry. You have been in my thoughts since I first heard your story which just resonated with truth. I agree with Janey. Your children will figure it out on their own when they get older. You raised them and they have learned your values and they know what true caring and love is all about. Tony cannot undo this. Just stay calm and supportive and resist the temptation to tell them who their father really is. Something similar is going on in my family and I will continue to pray for us all.
Letting loose a long string of words that would get me banned from WW because I am angry at Jones.
__
Sweeps the children of a divorced couple into a current of extraordinary events—all with a NPD diagnosed man calling the shots. Chilling.
—
Nancy2 wrote:
“HEY, I’M ON TV! I’M A CELEBRITY!”
And for years afterwords, calling a judge in a courtroom “an Ito” would guarantee you getting slapped with Contempt of Court.
__
Here’s a tragic story that will keep you wondering what can possibly go wrong next!
—
Gram3 wrote:
Thank you. The notion that it is always a tragedy for a father to get custody is disturbing at best.
As for this, Tony may be NPD. But Julie’s public behavior screams BPD. So I’m not sure there is a good outcome here.
It should also be noted that these kids are old enough that their wishes were likely considered strongly.
@ uuu:
If you look at the papers from this court case (I’m sure someone else here can link you), both Tony and Julie had to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. Tony was diagnosed as BPD. Julie was said to be “overly emotional,” but not at all mentally ill. (Please note that this is nothing against anyone who does have Bipolar Disorder, I am sure that there are very good Bipolar parents who are on the right medications. Just stating facts)
I feel so sorry for Julie and her kids. Julie, I am sending you a giant virtual hug which I wish you could feel in person.
There will be Hell to pay over this someday! And I mean Hell spiritually and literally. I would hate to be that earthly judge on THAT DAY. (Or those who have supported this gross injustice for that matter–religious or not). God sees all of this, and I am sure that He is not one bit amused by it.
Well said. Well written.@ Janey:
Sad but unsurprising. Freaking rapists and child abusers are winning custody in the land of the free. Until the US family court system is *completely* overhauled it’s best to show up white and male. Law enforcement definitely a plus.
@ uuu:
Both had extensive evaluations. Tony was diagnosed NPD. Are you aware of a diagnosis for Julie? I have seen this idea planted on several blogs. There was a time Tony and his ardent followers were insisting she should be committed.
uuu wrote:
Which no one here has said, ever.
uuu wrote:
Both Tony and Julie were given extensive psychological tests. Only Tony was diagnosed with a personality disorder, NPD, but you think Julie’s actions scream of Borderline.
Well, ok, then, that certainly settles it.
uuu wrote:
Thank you. The notion that it is always a tragedy for a father to get custody is disturbing at best.
As for this, Tony may be NPD. But Julie’s public behavior screams BPD. So I’m not sure there is a good outcome here.
It doesn’t scream any such thing to me. So if Julie never defends herself, then Tony gets to control the narrative that she is batsh-t crazy, which he has told numerous people for years. But if she does finally speak out and provide evidence that she is no such thing, then you think she is bipolar even though she has never received such a diagnosis. So women just have to take what men with NPD dish out or you will call them names?
By the way, the first ‘Marsha’ comment was not mine, just the last two.
uuu wrote:
I think this has been debunked on several occasions. Please put yourself in the place of someone dealing with a powerful person that is diagnosed NPD and makes it their goal to win and make your life a living hell. Now imagine dealing with such abuse for years and then tell me how you will act “normal”.
Gltterati are glitterati. Makes no difference what side of the aisle (YRR or progressive) they’re on.
A pox on them all.
Patrice wrote:
Ditto.
Sopwith wrote:
Agreed.
@ Marsha:
Julie, if you get to read this know I agree with Janey & Marsha…time will sort this situation out so be as patient as you possibly can. Children & young people are not stupid, & their Dad’s NPD will make itself clear to them as life unfolds, particularly if he no longer has the issue of fighting for custody to feed him. He will start looking around as to where his narcissistic supply will come from, they’ll see it all. It’s so painful & I’m so sorry, but it is not game over, far from it.
uuu wrote:
I have been involved in this situation since shortly after Julie sought help on another blog. You can read through all of our posts along with others, like The Naked Pastor. Here are some things that you should know before diagnosing Julie online.
1. The Deebs support the rights of both spouses to gain custody. In fact, one of our more frequent comments, Jeff S, did receive custody of his child.
2. We also believe that a father who spends most of his time on the road, getting a degree elsewhere, etc. shows by his actions that he has different priorities than caring for his family.
3. Tony has a serious diagnosis of NPD and even admits to it.
4. Julie was assessed (and assessed and assessed) by counselors whose evaluations have been submitted to the court. She has not been diagnosed with BPD. She has been diagnosed as being overly emotional, something some folks could claim about Dee.
5. Tony divorced Julie because, as he was wont to say, she was “batshit crazy.” Just how crazy was she if he was willing to leave his children with her? Such an act is despicable if he truly believed it was true. He protected himself from her but not his kids? Whadda guy!
This entire saga has left a sour taste in my mouth. The progressive camp, who have spread their ever-loving arms around Tony the NPD and his honey, have proven that they, too, are into tribal politics. They are no different than the patriarchs the YRR except in this case, there are patriarchs and matriarchs.
It is my opinion that the children should have been allowed to stay with their mother.
Muff Potter wrote:
And this comment is the reason that I love the Muffster!
Janey wrote:
Thank you for this comment. It made me tear up for those, like you, who have suffered at the hands of such people.
@ Haitch:
Thank you for the link.
Then there was the allegations of abuse. Also, he was a police chaplain.
“The custody documents reveal that the children asked to live with Julie in part because of the assault, and that the children’s therapist said that witnessing their father’s domestic violence against their mother had been traumatic for them.”
– See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/02/the-tony-jones-affair-releasing-the-documents.html#sthash.oiLmVfxb.dpuf
__
“On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand…”
hmmm…
Julie, I am of the opinion that given his past actions pattern, your ex-husband has no intention of stopping until your head is literally upon his wall. Safeguards therefore are ‘in order’.
TAKE THEM.
ATB
Sopy
—
Bill M wrote:
A friend of mine who has dealt with a similar situation says the same thing: she is suffering a normal reaction to trauma.
@ LT:
Personality disordered individuals should not, under any circumstances, be given “favorable” treatment (i.e., those saying people are being unfair). Disordered people are ABSOLUTELY able to control their behaviors. It is how they continue to manipulate, target, victimize, fool, discard, and leverage others. A disordered abuser can function very effectively in a corporate setting, for example, because he/she has to keep up a certain persona to keep the job. There is extensive scientific literature supporting this. You can start by reading Dr. Evan Stark’s book Coercive Control. These children will suffer immensely because this poor excuse for a father will use them to “legitimate” himself to others…”Look what a great dad I am.” This happens far, far more frequently than any of you probably realize, and it is a function of the legal system being bought by those with money and influence, which is rarely the victim of abuse.
@ Aubrey Cole:
“This happens far, far more frequently than any of you probably realize, and it is a function of the legal system being bought by those with money and influence, which is rarely the victim of abuse.”
+++++++++++++++
not that I disagree,…. you are sporting some kind of hat of authority on the subject. what is your background/qualifications?
elastigirl wrote:
I do not know about Aubrey’s qualifications but mine are merely as an advocate and observer. I can tell you that not having the ability to hire a lawyer gives no credibility in court. And judges are not there to explain procedure to you, the system is stacked toward lawyers. There are so many procedural games it is ridiculous.
There is not a lot of justice involved and what is available goes to the one with the best lawyer or any lawyer at all, when it comes to victims. There is an irony here. Abusers tend to pick on those they can. The system rewards that.
So, in many ways lawyers can actually jam up the works with technicalities and procedures. That is their job.
Tony has spoken: http://tonyj.net/blog/2015/11/29/the-end-of-a-very-bad-year-and-the-start-of-something-new/#sthash.3rXUJ4yu.QKVF0JEy.dpbs
Hang in there Julie.
Beakerj wrote:
Danica comments there: “I don’t see how you can celebrate the separation of children from their mother, while simultaneously saying you stand for women and justice. Jesus wept.”
Yeah.
Patrice wrote:
Not to mention, leaving your wife and mother of your children to shack up with another woman.
@ Lydia:
sure, no doubt about it. I just wondered how Aubrey could know what any of us have the ability to probably realize.
@ Patrice:
Really! He has the gall to post about. I don’t know if I can bear to read his words. Why can he make things public but not Julie?
Just my thinking out loud, Patrice.
Bridget wrote:
Because he has a Penis.
AND He Is Speshully Anointed by God Himself.
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!”
— Benny Hinn
Beakerj wrote:
Ex Cathedra?
@ Bridget:
More thinking out loud: He was very cryptic. The tenor was “this horrible battle has been won and the family is reunited”.
Never mind the historical details.
And keep in mind, he knows that his apologists can now feel vindicated. He won so he must be right. Rachel Held Evans: Anything to add about this “celebration” of the season from ToJo your conference organizer and ticket seller?
dee wrote:
Code of Blue.
Cop will ALWAYS close ranks with Cop against Not-Cop.
Thin Blue Line against the rampaging Chimpanzee troops outside.
Isn’t Bob Griener of Calvary Chapel Abuse fame also a Police Chaplain?
Who got his Cop buddies to pack the courtroom with one hand always on sidearm to intimidate the Not-Cop Judge?
Lydia wrote:
“A GOD Can Do No Wrong.” (gasping, with trembling lips)
Sopwith wrote:
NPDs and Sociopaths Always Win.
ALWAYS.
Because the rest of us can’t put all of our being into Exalting Ourselves.
When you have a life other than Exalting Yourself 1000% of the time, you’re not able to plan twenty chess moves ahead, and You Will Always Lose.
Does anyone know if he got sole custody or temporary custody?
__
“Whitewashed To A Smooth Getaway, Perhaps?”
Alleged adultery, bearing false witness and now theft…
hmmm…
Distinguished by a sound capacity to lead others in the Christian life; the demonstration of high moral character?
huh?
The christian pulpit has ‘truth’ by the balls, huh?
What?
There will be no ‘justice’ if ‘truth’ is “allowed” to wallow in the proverbial gutter.
(sadface)
When considering the fitness for christian office, “emphasis is clearly not on aspiring to a position or a place of prestige, but on the function and work of overseeing, an aspiration which is to have its root in godly and pastoral love for the well-being of God’s people rather than personal and selfish agendas. It is this that Paul asserts as trustworthy or honorable… ” [1]
ATB
Sopy
__
[1] https://bible.org/article/qualifications-evaluation-elders-and-deacons
—
elastigirl wrote:
She comes to this subject as a person who has been through a similar situation.
Lydia wrote:
So, in many ways lawyers can actually jam up the works with technicalities and procedures. That is their job.
There is a term known as “legal abuse”, where an abuser uses the legal system to, basically, grind down, bankrupt, and demoralize their victims.
Oops–in my previous comment, the comment about “legal abuse” is mine. The first sentence isn’t mine. It’s Lydia’s.
Bridget wrote:
I know right?
Tony writes: “Today marks the end of a very bad year, one in which I lost a lot of what I value in the world. I lost friends and I lost work, and it’s likely no secret to you who follow this blog why that happened.”
I don’t know what he’s doing these days but his comboxes have been smaller since Julie broke the story. Maybe there’s reason to hope he’s paying a price inside his community.
He makes public reference here too, in his usual self-serving and semi-vague manner: http://tonyj.net/blog/2015/09/23/phyllis-tickle-in-memoriam/#sthash.rJTiB1Zv.dpbs
I would like to take him by the nose and slap him silly. Not particularly good of me, but there it is.
Patrice wrote:
There is a refreshing honesty in that post!
dee wrote:
I can understand you saying that, as you know the mother. It is also in the public domain how her former husband has bahaved, in particular how his sex ethic has departed from anything remotely in line with the NT.
I, of course, know no more than that, but I wonder if you would agree it might be better to withhold judgement on this case as it has gone before a court of law, which ought at any rate to be trying to be objective?
From what I know of Jones’ tattered ‘theology’ and his bahaviour, I know where my sympathies would fall, but doesn’t the court have to take more than this into account? Or even not take that into account? So as far as the morality of it goes, I agree with you, but the court will have made its decision on the legalities rather than this.
By keeping the moral and legal issues separate, it is possible to respect the court’s decision under the law, whilst denying Jones any moral victory. I’m quite sure he and his fans will want to conflate the two.
Clarissa wrote:
As has been pointed out, fathers who fight can get custody a lot easier than you think: often they have more financial resources, and also a lot of times they get a good image just for wanting their children. There is a huge double standard. A man who gets angry and fights for his children is noble. A woman who does it is “bi-polar” (or some other slander).
As Dee noted, I got custody, and it was the right thing. But I’ve often observed the instant credibility I’ve gotten that I know women in similar positions deserved just as much. People see me with my son and think “there’s a man who fought for his son”, and they are right. But often people see a single mother and think “why couldn’t she keep a husband?” or other such nonsense, when they should be thinking exactly what they thought of me.
I’ve seen what it can look like fighting against a man who wants custody, and it can be a grueling and painful process, especially for the mother with limited financial resources.
uuu wrote:
Dee already pointed out that Julie’s psychological evaluations proves otherwise. Here’s a link to a blog with the documentation.
https://rlstollar.wordpress.com/2015/02/11/the-evidence-against-tony-jones/
Of course, Tony Jones trying to label Julie as such is classic NPD behavior.
Bill M wrote:
I deal with an NPD regularly. I also have a close friend who is diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder ( BPD-which is not bipolar, btw, so don’t tell me I’m wrong if you don’t know what I’m talking about ). Julie’s public behavior is very much that of someone with BPD. There is also enough frequency of intimate relationships between NPDs and BPDs that it is written about in psychiatric journals. The BPD friend I have dealt with married an NPD herself. This whole fiasco has played out very much like the way their divorce did.
I simply don’t think that Julie is the martyred hero here. I think that these poor kids , unfortunately, have two extremely dysfunctional parents.
@ uuu:
You seem to be ignoring the fact that they both were tested, and only he popped positive for a PD.
I know tests can miss. I know we don’t know all the facts. But the fact we *do* know is that he is an NPD. We simply don’t know her situation fully.
But if you’re wrong, you are saying some pretty hurtful things about her. If she’s a safe parent, and you are labeling them both as dysfunctional, that undermines her power to be the mom she’s capable of being.
It would be one thing if his diagnosis was conjecture, but it’s not. He admitted to it. So whatever else we know, we know the children aren’t safe with him.
@ uuu:
I guess I am confused. “You” diagnose her when an extensive evaluation has been done on both of them. Tony WAS diagnosed with NPD but Julie WAS NOT diagnosed with BPD.
I suppose a husband referring to you as his “legal wife” when he has a “spiritual wife” and trying to commit his “legal wife” with the help of a supposed pastor and colleagues would be enough to make anyone look a bit wacky until they figure out what they are dealing with.
The cruelty is that the person who has been abused over a long period of time is often accused of being over emotional. That is nothing new. It just speaks to the person making the accusation and their motivation.
If you deal with NPD all the time then this insistence of yours only makes me more confused. The person married to an NPD who is not aware they are dealing with a personality disorder can often feel as if they are losing their minds amongst the chaos tactics the NPD creates in order to control those around them. Multiply that by 100 when they are celebs of sorts with followers. Multiply again by 100 if they use Jesus to do their evil.
Tony Jones, in the link above from Patrice, is still at it. He just used a celebrity dead person to affirm his evil actions and help rebuild his own celebrity. You see, the now deceased celebrity emergent Phyllis Tickle put it in writing he WILL have a public life. He is now sharing that private email to the world.
He had the nerve to publish that after he went to great lengths to take away Julie’s free speech and other bloggers. But he was extremely careful. See his followers know what he is talking about. Most of them did not even know Julie’s name until last year.
I guess I don’t really understand your end game.
Danica’s comment was deleted. Surprise, surprise.
Julie, my heart is with you.
uuu wrote:
You think people who can’t breeze through being abused, abandoned, and having their children taken away without being emotional and all the while being the epitome of style and grace has BPD?
Nancy2 wrote:
I agree. Someone shouldn’t need to be a perfect martyr to gain sympathy nor does the same victim have to be flawless before the abuser’s associates pull in the reins on him.
Circling around and as someone relatively new here, I have detected a pattern.
When stories such as Karen’s are posted or updates on Julie’s story, a commenters drops in, often late in the conversation, and from a commenter I have never seen before.
The comment carries one or more of the points below,
* this is messy and we are oversimplifying
* we’re not balanced in our view
* we shouldn’t pick sides
* we shouldn’t inject ourselves into a personal dispute
* we shouldn’t be granting sainthood to the abused
* we shouldn’t demonize the supposed abuser
and the all important:
* we don’t have all the information
Often the comments includes non specific allegations of bad behavior by the abused. What is the point? Is it that life is messy so we should mind our own business? Powerful people always get their way after all.
@ Bill M:
Great list, Bill M — very helpful to have that as a summary, and I think your note about the timing issue of when such comments show up is also spot on.
Whether such points come from apparent sincerity, or from an intentional strategy, each in its own way contributes toward at least the following:
* Negation of our individual and corporate responsibilities for engaging in spiritual discernment.
* Failure of our biblical responsibility to protect people from harm — especially those who are in vulnerable situations — and to show care and concern.
* Failure to call out leaders who consistently fail to act according to the biblical qualifications for those we look up to as examples of Christlikeness.
* Perpetuation of a culture of hyper-individualism as if there are no connections between us as members of the Body of Christ, and as if there are no consequences to the Body when there are disruptions between members due to brokenness, sin, and/or evil.
Net results? “You can’t say that, you can’t do that, you can’t be that.” They promote a system of silencing, unplugging our conscience, and deactivating our compassion. And how do any of those promote Christlikeness … ?
@ Bill M:
And the whole sin leveling bit: they are both guilty.
That one always makes an appearance.
uuu wrote:
I have a borderline mother and a narcissistic father, so I can speak with some authority here too. I was truly concerned about the same thing, however, knowing Julie was evaluated for BPD and not given a diagnosis was a relief. HOwever, ToJo is the FIRST person I’ve heard of to be actually diagnosed NPD in court proceedings. This is LUDICROUS, and he should never have been given custody of those children.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Another corollary of a Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation.
They only hard-sell INDIVIDUAL Fire Insurance policies, not group.
And INDIVIDUAL Rapture Boarding Passes.
Bill M wrote:
“Power means you get to do Anything you Want. ANYTHING.”
— my probable NPD brother
Lydia wrote:
Is a “spiritual wife” anything like a Soulmate(TM)?
Never the one you’re married to, always the one you’re screwing on the side?
uuu wrote:
HI, TONY!
Jeff S wrote:
And a father with unlimited financial resources (“TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”) and buddy-buddy connections to the cops and court system (“Code of Blue”).
This isn’t the most recent decision, but it is a decision from 2014 affirming the 2011 reduction in child support.
http://mn.gov/web/prod/static/lawlib/live/archive/ctapun/2014/opa130482-030314.pdf
It indicates that the two have been to court about half a dozen times since their divorce, which is typical–really not the stuff of bleeding dry a half million dollar inheritance. Note also that she lost this case basically because she or her lawyers dropped the ball–I don’t know exactly what was going on, but it’s consistent with someone having a lot of trouble coping from a rough divorce (abuse, adultery, abandonment, etc.).
Rightly or wrongly, I’m guessing the ex husband keyed in on this. If you know Julie and are in the Twin Cities, now might be a great time to have her over for tea or something.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This kind of focus on celebrity and power kind of reminds me of how the Nobility were considered the more truthful in court in the caste system of those times, simply because they were aristocracy.
You know, these data bases for churches representing TGC churches and CBMW churches are coming in real handy. They are helping us know which churches to avoid. Will save tons of time!
Lydia wrote:
I still wish we could get a list of the “churches” that use face recognition systems to monitor their members.