Harsh Reality for Duggar Reality TV Stars

"The Duggar family earned $25,000 to $45,000 per episode of "19 Kids and Counting." The show aired 227 episodes spanning 10 seasons from 2008 to 2015. The Duggars have reportedly lost income totaling $25 million a year as a result of lost book deals, endorsement and speaking engagements stemming from their TV show's cancellation."

Examiner

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jim_Bob_%26_Michelle_Duggar.jpgJim Bob and Michelle Duggar

I remember it like it was yesterday.  Seven years ago I was talking with our family's assigned deacon after church, and he explained that he had been away quite a bit because he was a member of the production crew for a new reality TV show about a quiverful family.  At that point I had never heard of the Duggars.  I was, however, familiar with the quiverful movement because Dee and I had been researching Christian trends for several months.  At that point I was skeptical and somewhat cynical about this large family that I presumed wanted to demonstrate for the rest of us how to train children biblically. Several months later, my family left our church fellowship for reasons that had absolutely nothing to do with quiverful.  I continue to respect my former deacon, a brilliant man and a wonderful Christian; however, we have not stayed in touch. 

The following spring Dee and I began blogging about Christian trends and matters that deeply concern us.  In July 2009 I wrote about the Duggars for the first time.  Here is an excerpt from our post The Duggar Delusion, which I believe continues to be relevant.

What will happen to the Duggar children when their fifteen minutes of fame, so to speak, come to an end?  To some extent, they have become "child stars" simply because they are members of an extremely large family.  Often, those put on a pedestal at an early age have trouble adjusting when they are no longer in the limelight.  It will be interesting to follow the Duggar kids and see what happens to them when their "charmed life" dissipates.

Tragically, the title of that 2009 post was providential.  The sins of the eldest Duggar child have forever tarnished the squeaky clean image Jim Bob and Michelle paraded before a watching world.  We now know that the strict rules imposed on the Duggar clan (remember the term 'Nike' which alerted the boys to cast their eyes downward when as an attractive girl approached and those long skirts and bathing outfits), did not prevent sinful behavior (which originates in the heart). 

So what are the harsh realities the Duggars are now facing?

The family business has come to a screeching halt with the show 19 Kids and Counting being cancelled.  An article in the Examiner revealed that

the Duggar family earned $25,000 to $45,000 per episode of "19 Kids and Counting." The show aired 227 episodes spanning 10 seasons from 2008 to 2015. The Duggars have reportedly lost income totaling $25 million a year as a result of lost book deals, endorsement and speaking engagements stemming from their TV show's cancellation.

Josh Duggar, who worked with the Family Research Council was outed — first for molesting his sisters when they were very young, secondly for maintaining an Ashley Madison account, and finally for admitting to having a pornography addiction and cheating on his wife.  He resigned from his position back in May and is currently receiving some sort of treatment at a faith-based rehab center.  Sources report that has four months to go.

Anna Duggar, who at the age of 27 already has four children, is faced with the dilemma of staying with her unfaithful husband Josh or divorcing him.  In the last few days it has been reported that Jim Bob has purchased a 3,800 square foot home near the Duggar compound to entice Anna to stay with Josh (see excerpt below).

While Josh remains in a faith-based rehab center to battle his porn and cheating addictions, his wife Anna and their four kids have been bouncing between her parents home in Florida to sleeping in a closet on the second floor of the Duggar family’s estate in Arkansas! But that’s all about to change, as Jim Bob has purchased a sprawling 3,800 square foot brick mansion on two acres of land that’s just an eight minute walk from the Duggar compound. “Jim Bob has hinted to his daughter-in-law Anna that she could get the house” if she stays with Josh, according to a new report from In Touch Weekly.

The$ 345,000 home has four bedrooms and three bathrooms. “Offering Anna the home is just a ploy to get her to abandon any idea of leaving Josh,” the report claims. “She’ll be going from sleeping in a closet to living in a mansion. Also, it’s so close to the main Duggar compound that she can always call on the family for help whenever she needs it.”

Another source indicates that Anna has refused the initial offer of the house; however, Jim Bob appears determined to make Anna stay in the family.  No doubt Anna is being pressured from all sides about whether she should stay or go.  Our hearts are heavy for Josh and Anna's young children.

As you might expect, Jim Bob's actions aren't sitting well with his other children.  It has been reported that

“Some of Josh’s siblings have voiced their hopes that they could live in the home” the report adds, noting that Jill Duggar Dillard and her husband Derick Dillard briefly stayed in the new home with their infant son Israel during a break from their missionary work in Central America. “Nobody has directly challenged Jim Bob’s plan to have Anna move in, but you can feel some of the other kids want it for themselves.”

Meanwhile, Jill and Derick Dillard, who are serving as missionaries, have also been surrounded by controversy.  According to Christian Today, they have received some criticism for coming back to the United States only two months after relocating to Central America.  They returned for a wedding and spent a month visiting family and friends.  Apparently, some visitors to their Facebook page have accused them of being fake missionaries.  In response to this criticism, they are offering refunds to donors to those who wish to withdraw their support of Dillard Family Ministries.

To make matters worse, it was recently reported by the Inquisitr that the Dillards do not meet the qualifications to serve as missionaries through the Southern Baptist Convention.  Because of the following Instagram post, some supporters assumed they were Southern Baptist missionaries (see screen shot below).

http://www.inquisitr.com/2473939/jill-duggar-and-derick-dillard-rejected-as-missionaries-by-southern-baptist-church/

And it was none other than Ronnie Floyd, pastor of Cross Church and president of the Southern Baptist Convention, who did the commissioning.  No wonder contributors were/are confused!  Derek Dillard publicly admitted that the commissioning was nothing more than a prayer.

Here is another screen shot from the Inquisitr article:

http://www.inquisitr.com/2473939/jill-duggar-and-derick-dillard-rejected-as-missionaries-by-southern-baptist-church/

What disqualifies them you might ask?  Why, it's their education or lack thereof.  The Inquisitr piece goes on to explain the problem as follows:

To be a funded missionary of the SBC and IMB requires a bachelor’s degree from an accredited university and between 20 – 30 graduate hours of designated courses, such as: Biblical Studies, Theology, Church History, Missions, Evangelism, Discipleship, Preaching, Interpersonal Relationships, etc.

Although Derick Dillard has an undergraduate degree in accounting, he has never taken a college-level religion course and has no graduate credit hours. Jill Duggar has never been to college at all. To qualify as the spouse of a Baptist missionary, she must complete at least 12 college credit hours by taking these courses at an accredited college. The requirements are as follows.

■ 3 hours of New Testament Survey
■ 3 hours of Old Testament Survey
■ 3 hours of Biblical or Systematic Theology
■ 3 hours of Elective Courses in General Ministry

The Dillards seem to have the cart-before-the-horse, or the fundraising before the preparation to be missionaries.

Then there's Jessa Duggar Seewald who is expecting her first baby literally any day now.  She and her husband Ben just celebrated their first anniversary on November 1.  There have been reports that Jessa has been unhappy with her living arrangements since her sister's abode was much nicer.  And now that Jim Bob has purportedly acquired a 3,800 square foot home for his son and daughter-in-law, one can only wonder how Jessa feels. 

Yes, the Duggar 'kids' are growing up, and from outward appearances, it seems they are not prepared for the vast responsibilities of adulthood.  Being in the limelight and having so much handed to them has done them a tremendous injustice in my opinion.  And how about their homeschooling education?  How will they support their own families?  Of course, the girls will fulfill the call of being wives and mothers, so they don't need any additional education, right? 

Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar set out to show the rest of us how to raise children (while making bank).  Fortunately, some of us knew better…

It will be interesting to watch the spin-off show Jill and Jessa Counting On when it airs.  I have only seen a couple episodes of 19 Kids and Counting, but this upcoming special will definitely be of interest.  

Years ago the Duggars propelled themselves into the spotlight, and now they are constant fodder for the media.  No doubt these news outlets will be reporting on how the other Duggar kids turn out, and I hope for their sakes they learn about hard work and responsibility.  How Jim Bob and Michelle plan to teach this to the rest of their children is beyond me!

Comments

Harsh Reality for Duggar Reality TV Stars — 172 Comments

  1. Oh good grief, there’s a spin off show? When will it end? (Never, because there are bills to be paid from a lavish lifestyle formerly supported by their first reality TV show)

    I feel for the kids who are trapped and manipulated into continuing this charade by their parents. On the other hand, I confess that I don’t feel particularly bad for the trouble the parents find themselves in.

  2. Thanks for keeping up with this saga. I had hunted for updated information a few weeks ago, but came up dry. The Deebs have your ways! The Duggars would make a great soap opera (do we still have those?) except soap operas are fictional and this is sadly all too true. I do feel for the children and especially for Anna and her children. She’s between a rock and a hard place, for sure.

  3. “Yes, the Duggar ‘kids’ are growing up, and from outward appearances, it seems they are not prepared for the vast responsibilities of adulthood.”

    thing is, realizing what the daughters endured, we have to ask ‘did they ever really have a childhood’?
    a strange existence for those girls . . . molested very early, and by a sibling, then to be raised caring for younger siblings, then to quickly ‘court'(?) and marry and begin to reproduce, without ever experiencing either a real childhood or a real adulthood? Or maybe it’s a situation of being regarded as ‘objects’ to serve the needs of males, and therefore having no real identity of their own?

    In any case, the Duggar women are objects still of wonder and pity, and that objectification comes from the rest of us as voyeurs looking on at a ‘reality’ show from hell, we, sadly, may never know what kind of people they might have become given an opportunity to make choices and pursue their own dreams. I wish the children the best. I even hope that Josh is helped so that he can never again cause the kind of harm he is capable of unleashing on his family.

    We all might benefit from examining in detail those ‘seeds’ that were sown to yield such a disaster.

  4. @ Christiane:

    Great points! I am reminded of that line in The Sound of Music where the housekeeper informs Maria that Captain Von Trapp's children don't play, they march.

    As you so aptly pointed out, the older Duggar daughters probably spent most of their time taking care of their younger siblings. And until the BIG home was built (paid for in large part by outside sources), this huge family lived in a 3,000 square foot house.  What a life. 🙁

  5. Couple of things….I am sure you guy have been reading the stories about Calvary Temple in nearby Sterling, Virginia. This is an open letter to Molly Fitch. The Pastor of Calvary Temple Star Scott turned 4 of her 5 children against her and they have cut her off completely. The church orchestrated this behavior. This is my open letter to Molly

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/11/01/an-open-letter-to-molly-fitch-formerly-of-calvary-temple-in-sterling-virginia/

  6. I also got up a post about discernment. I’m not going to write anything now, but I would love to get your feedback and analysis of this membership requirements for a local Evangelical Free Church in the D.C. area called Ambassador Bible Church. After 2 weeks has passed then I will write a post on how I look at these membership requirements. Then I’ll reach out to Ambassador Bible and give them the opportunity to get involved, or respond.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/11/03/practicing-discernment-membership-requirements-for-ambassador-bible-church-a-local-evangelical-free-church-in-chantilly-virginia/

  7. This is not relevant to the topic, but it has overall relevance to things the Deebs cover on this blog.

    “In Religious Arbitration, Scripture Is The Rule Of Law”

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/business/dealbook/in-religious-arbitration-scripture-is-the-rule-of-law.html?ribbon-ad-idx=5&rref=business&_r=0&referer=

    This is a super-important article and covers the expanding use of arbitration clauses by religious organizations. Folks, it’s not just Scientology any more.

  8. @ Marsha:
    You have the lightening reflexes of a South Californian mite Paratarsotomus macropalpis, which has a speed of 322 body lengths per second. (Wikipedia)

  9. @ John Weaver:
    I just finished reading it. Good night! Did you see what the church did when the supposed Christian arbitration failed. They went to court!!!! I plan to write about this tomorrow barring any other breaking situations we are following behind the scenes.

  10. @ mirele:
    Thank you for sending this on. I plan to write about this tomorrow. There are plenty of troubling developments. Christians signing one of these things better be aware of what they are in for.

  11. One of the issues I cannot wrap my mind around is the level of cognitive dissonance that is required to be a member of this family. On the one hand, you’re expected to be folksy, faithful Christians and a proponent of the quiverful family planning ideals. On the other hand, in order to financially support such a lifestyle, you have to become a media whore and sell yourself to the highest bidder.

    This disparate reality is mind boggling. These children have not been raised in such a way that they can adapt to function in ‘normal’ society, which by definition makes them dysfunctional. Much less, they are not prepared to be lights of the gospel to a lost and dying world, mainly because the attention they attract is not a result of their faith in Jesus but because they chose not to use birth control.

  12. Deb

    This proves it. The Duggars were held up as role model examples of how to raise kids. For all of their foolish “protections” including weird bathing suits, telling the boys to look down at their feet when women wearing shorts walked by, not looking at the computer unless supervised, etc., they have demonstrated that their kids are just as prone to problems as every other kid.

    By the way, the Dillards have returned to the US 3 times since leaving for their long term mission. 3 times!!! Can you imagine them doing this on the money faithful followers sent them. Poor Jessa-her daddy only brought her a smaller house. her husband does the yard work for the Duggars and they expect to live large.

    Jim Bob is trying desperately to get back into the cash cow of reality TC and is bribing Anna to stay put. Even the Duck Dynasty people told Anna to divorce the creep.

    My guess is they have all turned out to be moochers. Also, I bet there will be more controversies arising. It is obvious, for example, that Josh was watching his computer strippers while he was still at home. My guess is that with 19 kids and Michelle running around to doctors to see if she can have more, that no one is minding the rules.

    I have been following this quite closely because I believe that they will be a lesson for everyone that their methods are no better than anyone else's methods.

    Stay tuned.

  13. To Our Readers

    Thank you for being patient with me during the last week or so. I am now a bit more organized as I face the decline of my stepfather and the serious cancer of my mother in law. My son is hanging in there and may even have an accounting job prospect here in the Raleigh area thanks to the daughter of TGBC.

    We are considering adding onto our house so that our mothers and Lou could move in, if necessary. Lou is heading to rehab today for about a week and then will return home with some help from me and aids.

    I have announced to my family that Thanksgiving and Christmas will be just the family this year, instead of the usual madhouse of friends, etc. My married daughter and her husband will begin to care for foster children this month, so they should add enough excitement.

    I expect things will be busy but controllable as this week rolls on. If you have been trying to contact me, send me an email with *urgent* in the title. I think I am backed up by 700 hundred emails at this time and feel really bad about it.

    Once again, I cannot thank you all enough. Sometimes, when things get a little stressful, I think about all of the people who come to this blog and how much I learn from all of you. Your warmth and kindness is incredible.

  14. Duggars…Kardashians…Duggars…Kardashians…Duggars…Kardashians…

    At least with the Kardashians, you know what you’re getting–a bunch of blatant grifters.

  15. dee wrote:

    My married daughter and her husband will begin to care for foster children this month so they should add enough excitement.

    Good for them! Fostering has become the source of my recent writings (on my blog). It has been a tremendous blessing as well as trial; our prayers will be with them!

  16. dee wrote:

    @ John Weaver:
    I just finished reading it. Good night! Did you see what the church did when the supposed Christian arbitration failed.

    It looks like these types of organizations/churches/businesses have established their own form of ‘Christianized’ Sharia law…

    When will people begin to wise up and stop signing these “it seemed completely innocuous at the time” BINDING LEGAL DOCUMENTS?

  17. In some ways, Anna has a “get out of jail free” card because of Josh’s infidelity.
    However, in the true spirit of FLDSness, she is stuck in a sort of prison because of the four children she’s been saddled with by the arrogant, entitled jerkface.

    Quiverful and patriarchy are traps. They are snares for the unaware. First the victims are lulled into a stupor by the Siren Song of false promises. Then once they are caught and the promises are broken and proven false, it’s too late.

    Anna either gets to be a single mom of four small children, or she gets to be controlled by Jim Bob & Josh while being resented by the other sibs.
    Where oh where is there another option of Anna?
    Patriarchy has nothing else for her.
    Patriarchy is the ultimate “sucks to be you” gospel for the women trapped in it.
    This should be a wake up call to others who have been listening to the sweet, false music of patriarchy. It is not the salvation they claim.

  18. Burwell Stark wrote:

    Good for them

    AMEN!!! Instead of having more natural children than they can handle, like the Duggars, they are providing a safe, loving home for abused and /or neglected children!

  19. dee wrote:

    @ Marsha:
    You have the lightening reflexes of a South Californian mite Paratarsotomus macropalpis, which has a speed of 322 body lengths per second. (Wikipedia)

    The problem with Christian arbitration, Peacemakers being the main proponent, is that they seem to demand peace with no justice.

  20. dee wrote:

    as I face the decline of my stepfather

    Not saying much except that I get it since my own father was diagnosed with dementia in July and we have only learned of his diagnosis last week. It explains a lot. But it doesn’t make anything easier.

    Hard to talk about.
    Hard to think about.
    Hard to deal with.

  21. dee wrote:

    This proves it. The Duggars were held up as role model examples of how to raise kids. For all of their foolish “protections” including weird bathing suits, telling the boys to look down at their feet when women wearing shorts walked by, not looking at the computer unless supervised, etc., they have demonstrated that their kids are just as prone to problems as every other kid.

    …I have been following this quite closely because I believe that they will be a lesson for everyone that their methods are no better than anyone else’s methods.

    I raised this comparison at Julie Anne’s blog a few months ago, but it’s very much like the movie “The Village.” More on that movie:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0368447/

    In that movie, the parents think the way to raise good kids and keep them from harm is to wall them off from external sin. So, they move the kids to a remote village in the woods, and have them raised thinking the year is 1755 or whatever.

    There are no TV sets, not movies, no cars, no rock and roll there. The kids are not exposed to such things.

    Do you know what happens? In spite of being regulated and sheltered, one of the young men tries to kill another one in a fit of jealousy over a red haired young lady.

    As Jesus taught, sin comes from within the heart, not from without.

    This is another reason extreme Christian modesty teachings drive me nuts.

    They try to tell people that if only women and girls would dress in a conservative manner, men would not sexually stumble, which is a lot of hooey. Even if every women dressed in a head to toe burlap sack, some men would still objectify them and commit sexual sin anyhow.

    The problem, as Jesus taught it, is in a man’s heart, not a woman’s skirt length.

    Anyhow, please consider watching The Village movie. It reminds me of these severe Christian families who are into homeschooling or Quivering.

  22. In the 1980s and ’90s, I was part of several ministries that helped sexual and relational addicts who were in recovery. We also worked with survivors of childhood sexual abuse, incest, and emotional incest (i.e., when a parent treats a child as if he or she were an adult, confidant, and “surrogate spouse”). I cannot recall a single instance where family dynamics *didn’t* play some significant role in the mix of factors leading to these adults’ ongoing sexual and relational issues.

    The thing I find most disturbing about the home environment created by Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar is the interconnection they’ve created between sex, family, money, and celebrityship. And although their “## Kids and Counting” series on TLC started in 2008, certainly the Duggars were watched as a high-profile family before they were paid for being high-profile. Meanwhile, Mr. and Mrs. Duggar have turned their name into fame and made a lucrative living by — to put it somewhat crudely — engaging in sex-on-demand by the patriarch (from what Mrs. Duggar suggested in a recent article that all women provide for their husband regardless of their own physical or emotional state) and providentially popping out babies, supposedly for the glory of God and the reality programming pleasure of their tuned-in public.

    While Mr. and Mrs. Duggar probably have been good parents in some ways, whether we ever see that or not, their purity/modesty culture training methods don’t seem to have worked (at least for Josh) in attempting to quell sexual temptations by the legalism of behavior modification. Aren’t the New Testament Scriptures clear that the law just stirs up what’s already there, and takes no one to maturity? And some girls in the family were sexually victimized by Josh, with personal ramifications likely to show up long-term, despite any assurances by some that they’re moving on from the past. And it looks like some of the children may already be on parallel paths to their parents, in pursuing materialism-consumerism-celebrityism.

    It’s sad. I see the boys and girls in the Duggar family as being negatively influenced by these sexualizing and consumerizing factors, put into place by their parents. And, from what I’ve learned from survivors of sexually-charged households, inevitable consequences lie ahead.

    Yes, people can change. We can overcome effects from the past. It’s just sad that these twisting elements were there in the first place. But how could the sex-family-money-celebrity connections *not* end up being a set-up for their children taking in warped perspectives on these issues by osmosis? That’s the way family dynamics work — whatever lives in the aquarium absorbs what’s in the water. Hopefully, other children in the Duggar family who might be at risk can intercept those issues before the risks become reality and require intervention, like what’s happened in a very public way with their oldest brother, Josh, and may be happening with some of their other older siblings.

  23. @ Mara:

    Even the warmer and fuzzier gender complementarianism presents these problems for women.

    I was brought up under the nice, gentle type of gender comp, and it did not prepare me for adulthood. I’m still having to deal with problems it raised now.

    The nice, warm and fuzzy type of gender complementarianism has some or many of the same ramifications as full blown Christian Duggar Patriarchy.

    Teaching strict gender roles sounds so good on paper, but it can mess up girls and women in very real ways in day to day life.

  24. @ Daisy:

    Just happened to watch “The Village” again yesterday. What drove that group to the woods was not what you think. The parents had all been part of a counseling group of people who had been traumatized by a horrific death of a loved one. The young man who tried to murder the other man out of jealousy also had mental issues. The town was a cult, but with a different motivating factor.

  25. Thank you Deebs for doing the right thing, not the easy thing. My guess is you are appreciated more than you know.

  26. @ Bridget:

    I picked up an element of parental over-protection in the story line.

    They thought they could erode sin and avoid tragedy if they could just wall themselves off from “the real world.”

    The guy with mental health problems had a crush on the red haired girl, and he stabbed the guy who was romantically interested in her… so romantic jealousy did appear to play a role in that, not just mental health problems.

    The point is, you can wall yourself off from external stimuli all day long but sin resides in your heart, so you (or the folks around you) will still do bad things.

  27. Burwell Stark wrote:

    One of the issues I cannot wrap my mind around is the level of cognitive dissonance that is required to be a member of this family. On the one hand, you’re expected to be folksy, faithful Christians and a proponent of the quiverful family planning ideals. On the other hand, in order to financially support such a lifestyle, you have to become a media whore and sell yourself to the highest bidder.

    doublethink, comrade, doublethink.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

  28. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    And it looks like some of the children may already be on parallel paths to their parents, in pursuing materialism-consumerism-celebrityism.

    Khristian Kardashians.

  29. Daisy wrote:

    They try to tell people that if only women and girls would dress in a conservative manner, men would not sexually stumble, which is a lot of hooey. Even if every women dressed in a head to toe burlap sack, some men would still objectify them and commit sexual sin anyhow.

    Just look at Saudi and Talibanistan, where they actually DO force women to dress in head-to-toe sacks.

  30. Tomorrow night on NBC, SVU (special victims unit) will run an episode based on the Duggar debacle.

  31. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Just look at Saudi and Talibanistan, where they actually DO force women to dress in head-to-toe sacks.

    I think that’s pretty much true in ISIS-controlled territories, isn’t it?

    And also, and yet, I’ve read news articles that when ISIS captures girls/women to sell in to the sex trade, they strip them nude while the ladies are standing on the auctioning block.

    MOD: Please don’t post things like this without attribution. ISIS is bad enough without posting urban legends. Not that I know either way but we want to keep things to the fact.

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  34. mirele wrote:

    This is not relevant to the topic, but it has overall relevance to things the Deebs cover on this blog.
    “In Religious Arbitration, Scripture Is The Rule Of Law”

    “IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN!”

  35. dee wrote:

    Jim Bob is trying desperately to get back into the cash cow of reality TC and is bribing Anna to stay put. Even the Duck Dynasty people told Anna to divorce the creep.

    My guess is they have all turned out to be moochers.

    Well, the REAL top of the food chain is the Parasite leeching off the apex predator.

  36. dee wrote:

    I expect things will be busy but controllable as this week rolls on. If you have been trying to contact me, send me an email with *urgent* in the title. I think I am backed up by 700 hundred emails at this time and feel really bad about it.

    “You have 700 emails in your inbox since yesterday.
    All of them are marked URGENT!”
    — Dilbert (“just like your job, except it’s a cartoon”)

  37. Mara wrote:

    Where oh where is there another option of Anna?
    Patriarchy has nothing else for her.
    Patriarchy is the ultimate “sucks to be you” gospel for the women trapped in it.

    While the men sing along with Glenn Frye:
    “I Got Mine,
    I Got Mine,
    I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
    Now that I Got Mine…”

  38. Nancy2 wrote:

    AMEN!!! Instead of having more natural children than they can handle, like the Duggars, they are providing a safe, loving home for abused and /or neglected children!

    But JimBob can say:
    “ALL MY DNA! ALL OF THEM!”

  39. Muff Potter wrote:

    Tomorrow night on NBC, SVU (special victims unit) will run an episode based on the Duggar debacle.

    If this is a spinoff of Law and Order, you could usually tell what would show on L&O by reading the news headlines and allowing for production lag time.

    Kind of like South Park, but with a longer lag time.

  40. mirele wrote:

    Duggars…Kardashians…Duggars…Kardashians…Duggars…Kardashians…

    At least with the Kardashians, you know what you’re getting–a bunch of blatant grifters.

    Reality Shows —
    Why you’ll never need to watch soap opera again.

  41. I followed some of those links and read on one site that Josh wasn’t home all that much anyway to spend time with his kids, so when the older ones started asking where daddy is, so far they’ve been able to basically punt on the question. If Anna was already living as a defacto single mom most of the time, I’m sure it’s crossed her mind that she could just make it official and still survive, assuming enough practical daily help. Jim Bob’s purchase of that property within walking distance of their compound to get her to stay doesn’t surprise me. At minimum, I hope Anna is seriously considering whether she wants to raise her kids to follow in the footsteps of the entire Duggar lifestyle and church culture.

  42. Nancy2 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But JimBob can say:
    “ALL MY DNA! ALL OF THEM!”

    H.U.G., it is not his DNA!!! It is his SEED!!!

    Oh, yeah.
    The child is 100% contained in the seed (and if NOT defective, will grow into a MALE).
    The womb is an interchangeable/expendable incubator for the SEED, nothing more.
    Because SCRIPTURE(TM)!

  43. NJ wrote:

    At minimum, I hope Anna is seriously considering whether she wants to raise her kids to follow in the footsteps of the entire Duggar lifestyle and church culture.

    Unfortunately, she would also need to figure out how to survive without the Duggar’s help if she wants to leave the compound. Josh should still support his children no matter what Anna decides, and he should support them even if he doesn’t get much in the way of visitation.

  44. NJ wrote:

    Josh wasn’t home all that much anyway to spend time with his kids

    Well, that explains how he was able to cheat on his wife.

  45. Bridget, she has reportedly gotten offers of help from her brother Daniel and possibly other siblings as well. I suspect if she realized how many people out there would be willing to help, she might be willing to brave the divorce process and possible shunning by a bunch of folks from her old life. In her shoes, I would also be willing to avail myself of government resources, but I don’t know how she was raised to see that.

  46. @ Bridget:

    Its not about peacemaking…its about legal protection and controlling the outcome. Did you read the news the other day? The company that owned the ship El Faro which went down in the hurricane filed a lawsuit to prevent victims families from being able to sue. The navy hadn’t even identified the wreck and they were active in litigation. Christians use arbitration as a means to control people. Not to bring about justice.

    http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2015/11/02/El-Faro-owner-seeks-to-block-lawsuits-from-victims-families/2691446465157/

  47. I’m curious what readers think.
    Do you think that Jim Bob and Michelle were naive or egotistical in thinking they had the perfect parenting plan?

  48. nwhiker wrote:

    I’m curious what readers think.
    Do you think that Jim Bob and Michelle were naive or egotistical in thinking they had the perfect parenting plan?

    I think they were naive; they followed Gothard’s made up system which promised a happy Christian home and perfect children if parents followed and reinforced all the rules.

  49. Probably a huge dose of naivete with creeping egotism as the years went by with apparent success. That’s going to be much harder to maintain now, of course. With the advent of Homeschoolers Anonymous, and the various scandals that have hit the internet, I hope to see a mass defection from all that they represent.

  50. nwhiker wrote:

    Do you think that Jim Bob and Michelle were naive or egotistical in thinking they had the perfect parenting plan?

    Both.

  51. Eagle wrote:

    Its not about peacemaking…its about legal protection and controlling the outcome.

    Christianity should be concerned with justice and peace — not the financial outcome.

  52. So let’s see . . . Jim Bob builds a house for Anna as a bribe . . . and some of the other kids want it for themselves . . . and one sister is jealous of the other because the other sister’s house is nicer.

    And in the meantime, eldest son is in rehab while daughter-in-law is coping with being cheated on. Not to mention, eldest girls are coping with the effects of molestation (and two of the victims have already had babies as well.)

    And people hold them up as model of Christianity?

    How God must weep.

  53. Not just any model of Christianity, but a model superior to most others out there. At least Reb Bradley had some measure of humility to write that famous post of his, outlining where a lot of Christian homeschooling parents had really screwed up.

  54. Tina wrote:

    So let’s see . . . Jim Bob builds a house for Anna as a bribe . . . and some of the other kids want it for themselves . . . and one sister is jealous of the other because the other sister’s house is nicer.
    And in the meantime, eldest son is in rehab while daughter-in-law is coping with being cheated on. Not to mention, eldest girls are coping with the effects of molestation (and two of the victims have already had babies as well.)
    And people hold them up as model of Christianity?
    How God must weep.

    The Christian community just doesn’t get the money part and how evil it can be do they? And I am not saying money is bad, but lusting for that gold can become a ” God” and they just do not see it…..

  55. nwhiker wrote:

    Do you think that Jim Bob and Michelle were naive or egotistical in thinking they had the perfect parenting plan?

    For many evangelicals faith is about formulas. If you do A + B + C the result will be ____. Its naive, foolish and comes from living in a bubble. I also think it shows how in denial many evangelicals are about sin. They act like you can control it and order it. If life were that simple and that easy….you wouldn’t need faith. I would also suggest that its the formulas that are being worshiped.

    Its really jacked up and flawed. And people buy into it because it easy. A lot of people like to be told what to do, and how to live. Its lazy and the easy way forward.

  56. “Nike”? Get real. If you tell a male, “Don’t look, but here comes a scantily clad female!”, what are most men/boys going to do instinctually? Most males above the age of 6 are going to LOOK!!!
    And what about the girls? Why is there no mention of a code word for them that says, “Don’t look now, but here comes a boy in painted-on jeans!”???

  57. @ Nancy2:
    LOL!! Don’t you know that good Christian girls don’t experience LUST!!
    Seriously I think that the Duggars DO look like the rest of us now, struggling with temptations, self delusions and big blotches of spiritual blindness. The crumbling of their empire gives them an opportunity to grow and their notoriety may actually result in encouraging others to give up their “christian” phoniness and become genuine transparent people walking by faith thru a strange land. It’s been a long strange trip, folks!!

  58. K.D. wrote:

    The Christian community just doesn’t get the money part and how evil it can be do they? And I am not saying money is bad, but lusting for that gold can become a ” God” and they just do not see it…..

    It is not just trusting money, it is obeying money. In a recent study of Mark 10:17-21, the young man who was told by Jesus to sell all he possessed, the true nature of the power of money struck me. Jesus said we can’t serve two masters. Unfortunately for most of us – and I include me in the us – most of the time we are not torn between two masters; we simply do what money tells us to do, or not do. That can be seen wherever money is in play, and that is everywhere including church. When money – or lack of money – talks, we all listen. And most of us obey, no matter what it says. We may not be willing to sell drugs, murder for hire, or sell our bodies for sex; but we are willing to prostitute ourselves in many other ways for the god money. I have spent much time over the last weeks in prayer, confession and repentance. I have not sold everything I own, but I am giving away a lot more these days.

  59. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ Nancy2: P.S. What kind of swimsuits do the Duggar boys wear?

    I assume this is what the boys wear to swim.

    And this is what the girls wear when they swim

    .

  60. Deb wrote:

    What a life.

    Former child star Paul Petersen works extensively to help past, current, and I daresay future child stars. He has expressed concern and disgust about the Duggar children’s situation. Petersen founded an advocacy group called A Minor Consideration: http://aminorconsideration.org/

    No Longer Quivering has covered the Duggar saga quite extensively. Suzanne Titkemeyer was kind enough to post my two-part piece about the Christian child star aspect of the Duggars:
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2015/08/undocumented-workers-19-kids-and-other-reality-tv-children-part-1/

    Hope the links come through OK…

  61. nancyjane wrote:

    Seriously I think that the Duggars DO look like the rest of us now

    Um, excuse me. Did you check out Michelle Duggar’s hair in the picture included in the post? I mean, what is going on there? Is is straight? Is it curly? Is it long? Is it short? Is is the 1980’s? Is it the 1880’s? I feel so confused looking at her hair that’s growing on the outside of her head that I can’t even begin to think about what’s going on inside her head. If that look is happening with the rest of us, is no hope. It’s the end of the world as we know it. 😛

  62. nwhiker wrote:

    naive or egotistical

    Narcissism is the word that leaps to mind. And a highfallutin psychological term: undifferentiated family ego-mass.

  63. Paula Rice wrote:

    nancyjane wrote:
    Seriously I think that the Duggars DO look like the rest of us now
    Um, excuse me. Did you check out Michelle Duggar’s hair in the picture included in the post? I mean, what is going on there? Is is straight? Is it curly? Is it long? Is it short? Is is the 1980’s? Is it the 1880’s? I feel so confused looking at her hair that’s growing on the outside of her head that I can’t even begin to think about what’s going on inside her head. If that look is happening with the rest of us, is no hope. It’s the end of the world as we know it.

    Straightening up their hair is all they ever do!
    Why don’t they straighten up the mess that’s inside?

    (Sorry, I was irresistibly reminded of Henry Higgins there. 🙂 )

  64. Paula Rice wrote:

    Did you check out Michelle Duggar’s hair in the picture included in the post? I mean, what is going on there? Is is straight? Is it curly? Is it long? Is it short? Is is the 1980’s? Is it the 1880’s?

    Michelle and girls are still keeping their hair according to the Bill Gothard Standard. He decreed that long hair with loose curls is the ideal. Almost every ATI family tries for that look.

  65. NJ wrote:

    Bridget, she has reportedly gotten offers of help from her brother Daniel and possibly other siblings as well. I suspect if she realized how many people out there would be willing to help, she might be willing to brave the divorce process and possible shunning by a bunch of folks from her old life. In her shoes, I would also be willing to avail myself of government resources, but I don’t know how she was raised to see that.

    Man, that is true. You get shamed for seeking government help. No practical solutions are offered. The church doesn’t have the resources to help on an ongoing basis. Yeah, an occasional utility bill, but if you’re handicapped and unemployable, Social Security offers a whole lot more security than the church. Still, it’s highly frowned on by the hyper-reformed, patriarchal types. They’re sort of in the category of those who say, “Go, be warmed, be filled, be blessed…” while standing by, tsk-tsking, and offering no help at all.

    Not all families can afford to take care of their own, especially if God has seen fit to bless them with an extraordinary family member (one thing I noticed is that these highly visible Patriarchs are raking in the dough… the average would-be P is probably not; and the second generation is so poorly educated, they’re not going to be raking in much dough, if any). I guess it’s Scripture (TM) that “God helps them who help themselves.” Even though it’s not.

  66. Eagle wrote:

    nwhiker wrote:
    Do you think that Jim Bob and Michelle were naive or egotistical in thinking they had the perfect parenting plan?

    For many evangelicals faith is about formulas. If you do A + B + C the result will be ____. Its naive, foolish and comes from living in a bubble. I also think it shows how in denial many evangelicals are about sin. They act like you can control it and order it. If life were that simple and that easy….you wouldn’t need faith. I would also suggest that its the formulas that are being worshiped.
    Its really jacked up and flawed. And people buy into it because it easy. A lot of people like to be told what to do, and how to live. Its lazy and the easy way forward.

    It also comes from anxiety; at least, we knew a lot of people who jumped on the bandwagon because of anxiety. The Patriarchs used the name of God in their promises: He always keeps His promises, you see, so you can have *assurance*. Everything is going to come out all right. You will prosper and be blessed because you followed the right steps.

    If you can cherry pick the right verses, you can make it seem that if you follow their approved “Biblical” method of marriage, parenting, building your own business, etc. etc. etc., you’ll have life, and that abundantly.

  67. Paula Rice wrote:

    nancyjane wrote:
    Seriously I think that the Duggars DO look like the rest of us now

    Um, excuse me. Did you check out Michelle Duggar’s hair in the picture included in the post? I mean, what is going on there? Is is straight? Is it curly? Is it long? Is it short? Is is the 1980’s? Is it the 1880’s? I feel so confused looking at her hair that’s growing on the outside of her head that I can’t even begin to think about what’s going on inside her head. If that look is happening with the rest of us, is no hope. It’s the end of the world as we know it.

    I wonder if her hair is naturally curly/wavy or if she curls it so that it measures up to Bill Gothard’s standards. You know that the Biblically perfect female hair (according to Gothard) is to be long and wavy.

  68. @ Friend:
    Is that what you call it? lol Looks like it’s also a subtle attempt to blur the lines between the world and the old world. Could be a slippery slope!

  69. @ Daisy:
    This information is all over the news. I’m not sure why this is considered controversial?

    Here is just one article about it, there are others:

    Isis slave markets sell girls for ‘as little as a pack of cigarettes’, UN envoy says
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/09/isis-slave-markets-sell-girls-for-as-little-as-a-pack-of-cigarettes-un-envoy-says

    “Some [girls and women] were taken [by Isis members], locked up in a room – over 100 of them in a small house – stripped naked and washed.”

    They were then made to stand in front of a group of men who decided “what you are worth”.

  70. @ Elizabeth Lee:
    It gives me the heepie jeebies to think about Bill Gothard and how his preferences. Gross. And have the Duggar women taken any steps to distance themselves from Gothard? I haven’t kept up with their saga, so I don’t know how the Duggar girls have reacted in light of what was revealed about them and their brother. Have they expressed any sense of outrage or are they pretty much like the walking dead? If their hair has retained the Gothard look (ickkkk), then I’d assume the latter.

  71. @ Lurker:
    I didn’t watch the show, but is that what they spent a lot of time on?

    Wonder how they account for that so that it’s not considered vanity. Wait, I’ve got it. They probably think of it as gospel-centered hair. 😛

  72. @ dee:
    Dee – I feel your pain, though mostly from afar and not more than one family member at a time. I hope you can take some time for yourself in all this. Even though my Dad is in a nursing home now, my sister is still dealing with anxiety from the last few years. It can be tough.

  73. When I was growing up, my mom didn’t want my ears to show in how I styled my hair. If it was in a pony tail, the hair was pulled back over my ears. Haven’t ever figured out that one. I have had short hair that exposes my ears for years and years now. I will never let any man or woman for that matter tell me how I should or should not wear my hair.

  74. harley wrote:

    I have had short hair that exposes my ears for years and years now. I will never let any man or woman for that matter tell me how I should or should not wear my hair.

    Ditto. The longer my hair gets, the worse it looks. Had it cut short when I was 17. My dad just about had a cow! I was involved in an auto accident when I was 18 ~ severe head trauma ….. they shaved my entire head. My dad chilled out on his “women with short hair” attitude after that. My hair has been pixie style short since 1981. I don’t care what’s in style – I know what works for me.
    Gothard would have a stroke if he saw us!

  75. Nancy2 wrote:

    I was involved in an auto accident when I was 18 ~ severe head trauma ….. they shaved my entire head.

    I can definitely relate. I was in a terrible head-on collision when I was 12. My forehead hit the dash, which fractured my skull. The doctors had to shave the front half of my hair in order to lift my skull off my brain. I wore a short wig to school for the first half of the 8th grade. It was a life-changing experience, and I am grateful to be alive. Four of us were in the vehicle I was riding in, and two did not survive. 🙁

  76. Bridget wrote:

    Elizabeth Lee wrote:
    He decreed that long hair with loose curls is the ideal
    He who never married, nor had children.

    But I think we can guess one of his sexual fetishes.

  77. Tina wrote:

    So let’s see . . . Jim Bob builds a house for Anna as a bribe . . . and some of the other kids want it for themselves . . . and one sister is jealous of the other because the other sister’s house is nicer.

    And in the meantime, eldest son is in rehab while daughter-in-law is coping with being cheated on. Not to mention, eldest girls are coping with the effects of molestation (and two of the victims have already had babies as well.)

    And people hold them up as model of Christianity?

    In the words of the Prophet Al Yankovic:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRcfDmkrhAI

  78. @ Deb:
    Wow. I’m sorry you lost the two people who were with you. That is hard for adults, let alone a 12 year old girl! But, I’m so glad, blessed even, that you made it through!
    No one died in the wreck I was involve in, and I was the most severely injured. A man passed out at the wheel of his truck and slammed into the driver’s side of my car. My kid brother was with me – he escaped with a minor concussion and a laceration. I suffered a large fracture across the lower back part of my skull, the left side of the skull was crushed, and glass from the headlight of the truck was embedded in my arm. The left side of my skull was so severely damaged that the dr. couldn’t put it all back together, so I have a hole about the size of a quarter just above my jaw joint. The chances of me surviving were slim. The chances of me coming out of the coma were slim, but 32 hours after surgery, I was demanding 2 aspirin and a ride home. There was a 50/50 chance that I could have ended up with a whole host of physical and mental problems, but I have lived a fairly normal life. The only permanent damage – I’m deaf in my left ear.
    I firmly believe that God is alive, and he still works miracles! He even gave me a hole in my head to use as an excuse for all of the stooopid things I do!

  79. How many million dollars they’ve earned and haven’t put in a swimming pool — or perhaps, male/female swimming pools? These people don’t have good sense. And they don’t know how to fill a horse trough.

    Dee, I’m with you on the caregiver thing. So I’m thinking of a much better reality show: 19 Elderly Parents and Counting – Up and Down. Seriously, taking care of a nonagenarian is about the hardest physical work I’ve had to do in a long time, so having a few tv cameras around wouldn’t be a problem, especially if they came with a few million bucks to make our parents’ final years (and ours, and hopefully a whole slew of missionaries’ lives) a little sweeter. TLC — we’re here for ya. And our hair is far more fashionable, not to mention our clothing. We might even show a little leg — it’d boost ratings for sure. The Duggers shouldda thought of that. And whaddya know — we’re Christians without formulas.

  80. Paula Rice wrote:

    gospel-centered hair.

    Oh this thread has had me in stitches… we can now present to you the ultimate in submissive Christian hair: the Laura Ingalls Mullet, the true gospel centred hair. I’m going to be sniggering about this all day.

  81. @ harley:
    I wasn’t so lucky as to have ‘long hair with loose curls’ as a child . . . it was my MOTHER who was perm-crazy and into short tightly-permed hair . . . now, one Easter, she marched herself and me and my younger sister downtown to a salon giving perms for five dollars, haircut included, (this was REALLY a long time ago). . . three white females went into the shop and three white females with chopped Afros left the shop three hours later . . .

    most of what was left of my hair eventually broke off and I was left, in time, with a ‘pixie’ style and no ‘curls’ were ever seen on me again, not one 🙂 none. no.

  82. @ Beakerj:

    Hee Hee…In that world Laura Ingalls is considered a feminist role model for little girls! She is much too independent and ambitious.

  83. I have never watched 19 Kids. Those clips posted above are the first I’ve seen of the actual show. That is the most boring thing I’ve ever watched in my life. How that became a hit is beyond me. But then I don’t watch any reality tv so maybe it’s just not my thing.

  84. M. Joy wrote:

    That is the most boring thing I’ve ever watched in my life. How that became a hit is beyond me. But then I don’t watch any reality tv so maybe it’s just not my thing.

    I never saw it either. However, my guess is the attraction is akin to a circus freak show. Why do people pay to see a bearded lady?

  85. @ Beakerj:
    😉

    Again, referring to the photo of the Duggar’s, notice the pillar. Male propaganda, much? Plus, looking at Jim Bob, it doesn’t look like his body has taken much of a beating from having fathered a small village.

  86. M. Joy wrote:

    I don’t watch any reality tv so maybe it’s just not my thing.

    America’s fascination with reality shows is a good indication of just how sick our populace is. Couple that with prime-time entertainment including vampires, walking dead, and assorted pornographic images … yep, America is sick. And sicker still when you realize that church folks are watching this stuff, too!

  87. mirele wrote:

    Duggars…Kardashians…Duggars…Kardashians…Duggars…Kardashians…
    At least with the Kardashians, you know what you’re getting–a bunch of blatant grifters.

    Which it seems the Duggars have become as well. Fame whores all.

  88. Tina wrote:

    And people hold them up as model of Christianity? How God must weep.

    The 21st century church at large does not resemble the New Testament model of Christianity. Somewhere on planet earth, I suppose one can find a remnant of believers who reflect Christ in behavior and mission … but that species is rare and endangered in America. Sins in the Duggar’s family are more representative of average church folks than we want to believe.

  89. Paula Rice wrote:

    gospel-centered hair

    Thanks Paula. After reading this post and the comment thread, I felt like crying. But, you’ve picked me up a bit with that addition to the gospel-centered collection.

  90. @ dee:
    I believe they stated one of those times was paid for by TLC for their “involvement” in breaking the silence. Not that much better, but still.

  91. I guess I am confused. So Gothard chose the proper hairstyle for women in that cult? I wonder why he chose 1980’s mall hair as opposed to the historically traditional bun?

    Creepy.

  92. Beakerj wrote:

    the ultimate in submissive Christian hair

    But how can the hair be submissive when it is on top of the head?

    Duggar reality is an anagram of Girly graduate.

    But to get to the point, isn’t a lot a Christian T/V, so-called, pass-the-bucket press the red button on the remote cringeworthy. I prefer Top Cat.

  93. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The child is 100% contained in the seed (and if NOT defective, will grow into a MALE).
    The womb is an interchangeable/expendable incubator for the SEED, nothing more.
    Because SCRIPTURE(TM)!

    Seriously!? Please tell me that the quiverfull bunch don’t actually look at conception and genetics this way.

    I mean, I realize that some of them seem allergic to science (Kevin Swanson, I’m looking at you). But there has to be a limit. Doesn’t there…?

  94. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Seriously!? Please tell me that the quiverfull bunch don’t actually look at conception and genetics this way.

    SKIJ,
    Don’t forget Nancy Wilson: a man’s wife is his GARDEN!

  95. @ Lydia:
    I recall shortly after I was saved, I attended a college-age group at my parents church, and I remember the pastor saying it was evident the woman who wiped Jesus’ feet with her hair was a prostitute because it was down and loose.

    This was the same night the pastor had us line up boy/girl/boy/girl and pass an orange to the next person in line w/out using our hands, doing it neck to neck, as a demonstration of us “working together as a body”. I didn’t go back. But I digress.

    If what the pastor said was true (oh, and after the orange exercise, he brought out frozen spoons attached to long strings which he instructed us to put up and down inside our clothes in the line, as a demonstration of being “knit together”) then that long, loose hair Gothard prefers is biblical only in as far as its the style the prostitutes wore. Gotta be consistent with all that biblical stuff, right Bill?

  96. Paula Rice wrote:

    Gotta be consistent with all that biblical stuff, right Bill?

    Well, really, I believe the long hair is just Bill’s personal preference. The girls/women just followed the authority.

  97. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    The child is 100% contained in the seed (and if NOT defective, will grow into a MALE).
    The womb is an interchangeable/expendable incubator for the SEED, nothing more.
    Because SCRIPTURE(TM)!
    Seriously!? Please tell me that the quiverfull bunch don’t actually look at conception and genetics this way.

    That was actually the Hellenistic idea of reproductive genetics as of NT times, continuing through the Middle Ages and Renaissance. (Probably locked in harder in the Renaissance, due to the trope of “It’s Greco-Roman, It HAS to Be Right!”)

    I’m sure some of the Quiverfull bunch do (for one thing, it props up Patriarchy Uber Alles and there’s always some Fringies in any group), but I don’t know how widespread that fringe is. Considering some of the stuff we’ve seen here at The Watch, I would not be surprised by anything I see or hear about these RTCs.

  98. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    I mean, I realize that some of them seem allergic to science (Kevin Swanson, I’m looking at you). But there has to be a limit. Doesn’t there…?

    Nope, there does not have to be a limit. I had a fellow argue with me that men have one fewer rib on one side as compared with women. His argument was so what if we don’t see it on x-rays, it is still true.

  99. Paula Rice wrote:

    This was the same night the pastor had us line up boy/girl/boy/girl and pass an orange to the next person in line w/out using our hands, doing it neck to neck, as a demonstration of us “working together as a body”. I didn’t go back. But I digress.

    Your pastor sounds WEIRD.

  100. okrapod wrote:

    I had a fellow argue with me that men have one fewer rib on one side as compared with women.

    My mother believed that.
    It was apparently a common folk belief where she was raised, and I read that it was a very common one in Medieval Europe.

  101. Nancy2 wrote:

    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Seriously!? Please tell me that the quiverfull bunch don’t actually look at conception and genetics this way.

    SKIJ,
    Don’t forget Nancy Wilson: a man’s wife is his GARDEN!

    And “Penetrate! Colonize! Conquer! PLANT!”

    And the expression “Plowing the field”.

  102. Lydia wrote:

    I guess I am confused. So Gothard chose the proper hairstyle for women in that cult? I wonder why he chose 1980’s mall hair as opposed to the historically traditional bun?

    Urges in his Areas?

  103. Paula Rice wrote:

    Again, referring to the photo of the Duggar’s, notice the pillar. Male propaganda, much?

    Ever heard of a Lingam?

    Plus, looking at Jim Bob, it doesn’t look like his body has taken much of a beating from having fathered a small village.

    Doesn’t take much time or energy to shoot your seed into its incubator.
    After that, it’s all HER problem. For the next 20 years.
    Ever heard of “Wham! Bam! Thank Ya Ma’am!”?

  104. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Yeah, he had to have been was off. I had gone to the different churches my parents attended in the various locations growing up, and as I got older only on occasions like Easter or Christmas. They had a pretty good bell choir as I recall.

    I got saved my freshman year of college, and the church my parents attended was walking distance from campus, so, without having any other alternatives I knew of at the time, I decided to give a go. After I attended the college group that night I never returned because I knew THAT wasn’t what I was looking for! It was weird. And the other kids were just all silly kids raised in the church who giggled the whole time. Outta there!

  105. Paula Rice wrote:

    I recall shortly after I was saved, I attended a college-age group at my parents church, and I remember the pastor saying it was evident the woman who wiped Jesus’ feet with her hair was a prostitute because it was down and loose.

    There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about hair in interpretation and historical context. I had some interesting interaction with Phillip Payne last summer over this topic from 1 Corin 11. He did a lot of historical research on this subject. One thing stood out was cultural context and Paul actually factoring that in when giving advice or making an argument.

    No, it was not unusual for women to wear their hair down. Not the same thing as covering to them. But, according to Payne, long hair on men in the Roman world then was not socially acceptable.

  106. Paula Rice wrote:

    And the other kids were just all silly kids raised in the church who giggled the whole time.

    GUBAs — “Grew Up Born Again”.

    What you experienced is actually called “Growing Up Martian” — you were an Alien, and were looking at What Was Normal as a complete Outsider.

  107. @ Paula
    @ HUG

    FWIW there were some of us GUBAs who also were not remotely interested in such silliness.

  108. Lydia wrote:

    I guess I am confused. So Gothard chose the proper hairstyle for women in that cult? I wonder why he chose 1980’s mall hair as opposed to the historically traditional bun?
    Creepy.

    Not only that, but he dictated men’s fashion as well. I believe that manly men are clean-shaven (no facial hair), with military haircuts. I could be wrong, as we were never in ATI, but we had acquaintances who were.

  109. Lydia wrote:

    I guess I am confused. So Gothard chose the proper hairstyle for women in that cult? I wonder why he chose 1980’s mall hair as opposed to the historically traditional bun?
    Creepy.

    Because soft curls are just begging to have fingers run through them? Or begging for the fantasy, at least?

    But then, you’ve got all those 40s and 50s romance movies where the “homely” girl wears glasses and has her hair pulled back in a tight bun, and the guy pulls her glasses off and takes the hairpins out and lets her hair fall to her shoulders and — voila! instant glam — and then kisses her to prove she’s now desirable and was all along, except for her unfortunate fashion choices.

  110. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Paula Rice wrote:
    Again, referring to the photo of the Duggar’s, notice the pillar. Male propaganda, much?
    Ever heard of a Lingam?
    Plus, looking at Jim Bob, it doesn’t look like his body has taken much of a beating from having fathered a small village.
    Doesn’t take much time or energy to shoot your seed into its incubator.
    After that, it’s all HER problem. For the next 20 years.
    Ever heard of “Wham! Bam! Thank Ya Ma’am!”?

    And it doesn’t appear that he was ever up at 2am, exhausted, crying in the laundry room as he tried to catch up with the laundry. Michelle recounts being in the laundry room in the wee hours, weeping — where was her husband? Sleeping sweetly after having his nightly thank-you-maam, probably.

    Ah, yes. A little healthful exercise, a deep and restful and restoring sleep…

    Reminds me of the account I read of the Pearls’ honeymoon. All fun and games for the hubby. Exhausting, humiliating, and painful for the wife.

    Why would any woman in her sound mind want to get married?

  111. Growing up in a fundamentalist background, what gets me the most about the fall of "The Duggers", Bill Gothered, Bob Johns U., and other "leaders", is the hypocrisy of it all. Many young and impressionable people (for which I once was), can take the purity/legalism/righteousness way too seriously that these types put out. If these types all lived such pure lives, then maybe they are on to something… But, what keeps coming out is how "just like the rest of us these types are", and how much/how far they, and the system, goes to to cover up their "sins"…. It really does make me want to throw up.. especially that I listened to them when I was young…

    No, I am not saying I want to be, or wished I was, a "heathen", just that they made me feel like sh#t (ed.) since I was not "pure" like them!!! Also, sexually purity is just a very small part of what I am talking about….. the biggest issue is the focus on behavior, and not true GRACE…

  112. refugee wrote:

    Why would any woman in her sound mind want to get married?

    Because there are a lot of good and decent men who would make great husbands.

  113. refugee wrote:

    But then, you’ve got all those 40s and 50s romance movies where the “homely” girl wears glasses and has her hair pulled back in a tight bun, and the guy pulls her glasses off and takes the hairpins out and lets her hair fall to her shoulders and — voila!

    THAT is a Theatrical Convention called “Hollywood Homely”.

    Not the first Theatrical Convention to get mistaken for reality, and it won’t be the last.

  114. refugee wrote:

    Reminds me of the account I read of the Pearls’ honeymoon. All fun and games for the hubby. Exhausting, humiliating, and painful for the wife.
    Why would any woman in her sound mind want to get married?

    At least to a schmuck like that.

  115. roebuck wrote:

    refugee wrote:

    Why would any woman in her sound mind want to get married?

    Because there are a lot of good and decent men who would make great husbands.

    Unfortunately, they’re not attractive to women.

  116. I can only share this as something I’ve heard because I have no training in Greek, but I had a pastor years ago who was a Greek scholar. He said that the wording translated in terms of “long” and “short” hair in Paul’s teaching had reference more to function than a particular length. The terms were used to refer to the hair on a horse’s body / the hair in it’s mane and tail, for instance – it was the amount of care/upkeep/styling/whatever that each required as opposed to a measurement. His opinion was that it was up to each believer’s personal convictions where they drew the line. I’d be interested to hear any other Greek student’s thoughts on this interpretation.

    My own opinion on the nature thing is, maybe just because it’s apparent that women value their hair, the world over in pretty much all ages? It’s part of our nature? If we are to look at the natural world, it would appear the male is usually the more “fancy” one, so I don’t know how that would relate.

    Personally, I wear my hair very short, but I will say that doesn’t mean it’s quicker to style, by any means! I think the whole hair thing is a side issue and another meaningless thing used to try to peg person’s spirituality and measure people against one another. Each person has the freedom in Christ to dictate their own hairstyle based upon their personal preferences.

  117. nwhiker wrote:

    Do you think that Jim Bob and Michelle were naive or egotistical in thinking they had the perfect parenting plan?

    My observation is, many of us begin the Christian life with a lot of naivety, regardless of which camp we land in. The question is, what do we do when reality breaks through the platitudes? Do we embrace truth or do we become liars? I remember reading a secular quote a long time ago to the effect that ideology can make liars of us all. I see the same thing happen in the church when people embrace “Christian” ideologies instead of Christ. Ego can be the reason we refuse to acknowledge truth and so can fear.

  118. I did notice on both the Duggar show and the Growing Up Bates show that all the men wear their hair in the same short style. Just like Bill Gothard wants them to. But what happens if the men grow bald, do they get a toupee to still like Gothard wants to men to? Personally, JimBob Duggar gives me the creeps when I look at his swarmy face. I have seen way to many men like him. My husband helped out in the midnight feedings and the housework when the kids were little and still does.

  119. refugee wrote:

    Not only that, but he dictated men’s fashion as well. I believe that manly men are clean-shaven (no facial hair), with military haircuts. I could be wrong, as we were never in ATI, but we had acquaintances who were.

    My only exposure to ATI – thank heavens – was to some of their “character booklets” that someone gave my parents to use in my home school curriculum. Thankfully, neither my parents nor I had enough motivation to care about the strict regimen prescribed therein, so that became a short-lived fad. But I heard a few years ago from another home school family who was much more into the ATI thing, that they were not accepted into some ATI program because the husband refused to shave his beard. He even provided verses to support his case, but never mind that, he wouldn’t submit to Billy’s “Godly authority,” so they were summarily rejected.

  120. @ siteseer:

    I used to cringe at all the Christianese parenting books written by celebs with very young children. Can’t they wait until they are at least 30? :o)

  121. Nancy2 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Unfortunately, they’re not attractive to women.

    They might be, if we take their glasses off and the hairpins out of their tight buns.

    LOL, but so true! I’ve never liked hipster “fashion” (and I use the term loosely), although I leave myself open to accusations of bitterness, because a buzz cut is the only way to minimize the obviousness of my follicle impairment, and I should not be allowed (and gladly do not allow myself) to let a pair of skinny jeans come within a mile of my closet. So there’s that… 😮

    Now, I apologize for the stereotypes I’m about to invoke, but there’s also a joke about a certain minority of cases…

    “The good news, ladies, is that you can find a sensitive, caring gentleman who will do his own laundry, iron his own clothes, and keep the house immaculately clean.

    On the other hand, I think you already know the bad news…”

  122. @ Lydia:
    Doesn’t it seem like there’s a long tradition of Christians writing books about things they don’t have adequate experience with? Like Josh Harris writing a book about courtship before he was even married, or most Christian material on sexuality…

  123. Lydia wrote:

    @ siteseer:

    I used to cringe at all the Christianese parenting books written by celebs with very young children. Can’t they wait until they are at least 30? :o)

    But then they’ll be Has-Beens instead of CELEBRITIES!

    (Anyone remember the “John & Kate + 8” Christian Testimony books and Study Bibles at the Jesus Junk stores? They all got pulled from the shelves after the J&K+8 sex/divorce scandal broke.)

  124. refugee wrote:

    Not only that, but he dictated men’s fashion as well. I believe that manly men are clean-shaven (no facial hair), with military haircuts. I could be wrong, as we were never in ATI, but we had acquaintances who were.

    Just flashed on a long-ago underground comic strip. “Fat Freddy’s Cat” by Gil Sheldon; specifically one of the side strips about Commander Cockroach and his Roach Reich under the stove. Went like this:

    PRIVATE ROACH (scuttles up and announces): “Sir! The eggs you fathered have hatched! (looks at paper) 125000 boys and 75000 girls!”

    COMMANDER COCKROACH (who’s decked out like General MacArthur): “Splendid! Have 75000 aprons and 125000 military uniforms sent to the Nursery!”

  125. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    No, I am not saying I want to be, or wished I was, a “heathen”, just that they made me feel like sh#t (ed.) since I was not “pure” like them!!!

    This is the part that is so wrong. Many come to Christ who are not pure. They are not lesser or worse off than those who never had sex before marriage. Those who think so are like the Pharisees whom Jesus called whitewashed tombs.

  126. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Unfortunately, they’re not attractive to women.

    Show me where the good, decent, men are that are around my age, and I’d be happy to marry one.

    (They don’t show up to churches I’ve been to, and most of the ones on the dating sites are smarmy or kinky wackos.) And the ones my age usually want to date women 15 years younger than I am.

  127. Nancy2 wrote:

    They might be, if we take their glasses off and the hairpins out of their tight buns.

    There are men with “man buns.” I saw articles that said “man buns” can make guys go bald.

    “Is the ‘man bun’ causing premature baldness?”
    Adopted by sports stars, actors and hipsters, the popular hairstyle dubbed the ‘man bun’ might be the root cause of an increase in receding hairlines
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/fashion-and-style/11890302/Is-the-man-bun-causing-premature-baldness.html

  128. harley wrote:

    I did notice on both the Duggar show and the Growing Up Bates show that all the men wear their hair in the same short style. Just like Bill Gothard wants them to.

    Most of the Duck Dynasty guys I’ve seen have long hair and big beards.

  129. Lydia wrote:

    I used to cringe at all the Christianese parenting books written by celebs with very young children. Can’t they wait until they are at least 30? :o)

    This bugs me too. This, and how Christian TV shows have these Christian married couples or families on, presenting these people as role models the rest of us to follow, and as though these people have found the secret or right ingredient to living godly, perfect lives.

    Then what happens, is several months later, these same guests either divorce, their kids get busted for drugs(or something else), or their family has other types of problems.

    That happened with that “Kate Plus 8” lady. While she was married to what’s-it, she was paraded on the Christian show circuit hawking some family book she made.Then months later, she and Mr. WhatsIt divorced.

    Miley Cyrus’ dad was interviewed a few years ago on Christian TV, and then a year or more later, his daughter started acting very provocative to downright trashy in her personal and professional life.

    I’ve seen this same thing happen with other Christian celebs too. They get broadcast as these super clean, great role models, but then news stories hit the stands months later that they’re into drugs, or whatever else.

  130. @ okrapod:

    I have no idea what Paul was thinking. :o) However, Payne did quite a bit of research on this because a prof at Oxford challenged him to prove 1 Corin 11 meant what Payne claimed it meant at the time.

    He could not find any likenesses of Greco-Roman-ish men in that era with long hair. (Remember, we are talking Cornith) The secular resources he found communicated it was a cultural belief then that long hair on men was effeminate. A new one on me and not sure what “nature” refers to in that context. It could be defined as origin or birth, too. So not sure.

    It was an interesting discussion. I have not done any homework/research on this so have no idea. What I do know is that 1 Corin 11 is one of those passages that seems easy to twist for every pet idea/doctrine out there right down to translators adding “symbol of” to the text.

    It is just another perspective about the bible and the whole hair controversy that seems not to ever go away. :o)

  131. I have to say one thing that made me cringe on the Duggar’s show. When the girls were getting married, they’d have girl times at their showers or trying on wedding dresses, and there seemed to be a lot of fake intimacy between the sisters, hugs that were just pats on the backs, etc. I wondered if any of them really were close.

  132. Eagle wrote:

    it shows how in denial many evangelicals are about sin. They act like you can control it and order it. If life were that simple and that easy….you wouldn’t need faith. I would also suggest that its the formulas that are being worshiped.

    Amen, brother!

  133. siteseer wrote:

    I remember reading a secular quote a long time ago to the effect that ideology can make liars of us all. I see the same thing happen in the church when people embrace “Christian” ideologies instead of Christ.

    “It is not everyone who keeps saying to me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the man who actually does my Heavenly Father’s will. In ‘that day’ many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we preach in your name, didn’t we cast out devils in your name, and do many great things in your name?’ Then I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you. Go away from me, you have worked on the side of evil!’” (Matthew 7:21-23)

  134. Deb wrote:

    Law and Order SVU did an episode based on the Duggar family which aired last night. (Note: it was exaggerated beyond what actually happened between Josh and his sisters).

    That normally happens during fictionalization.

    Though I read the review and… Woo.

  135. Daisy wrote:

    That happened with that “Kate Plus 8” lady. While she was married to what’s-it, she was paraded on the Christian show circuit hawking some family book she made.Then months later, she and Mr. WhatsIt divorced.

    One blogger related seeing their Christian Celebrity Autobiography (and possibly a J&K+8 Theme Bible and/or Bible Study Guide) on the shelves of the Jesus Junk stores — and how they all disappeared faster than one of Stalin’s Comrades when the sex/divorce scandal broke.

  136. I just don’t think that the words pure and virgin are synonyms. Who can boast of being pure, whether they are a virgin or not? Christ is pure. We are pure through his atonement, not because of anything we have done or not done.

  137. Marsha wrote:

    nwhiker wrote:

    I’m curious what readers think.
    Do you think that Jim Bob and Michelle were naive or egotistical in thinking they had the perfect parenting plan?

    I think they were naive; they followed Gothard’s made up system which promised a happy Christian home and perfect children if parents followed and reinforced all the rules.

    I think they’re just plain dumb as a box of rocks.

  138. Thanks for the reminder of the atmosphere of the Gothard teachings the emphasis on submission of those days. We were in a church that was very involved in those things and we had young children and were involved in swimming, boating, camping and gardening so my wife had short hair wore shorts and jeans most of the time. When the “older” ladies would pull her aside to explain that she was not very proper, she would just look at them sweetly and answer I dress and wear my hair to please my husband. Since she gave the proper answer then I was the one who needed correction and they were women so they could not correct me it was a dilemma they were not equipped to handle. It was like watching a shape shifter (Star Trek ref.) lose control between forms. Provided us many laughs at home.

  139. Inquisitr and Hollywood Life? I’ve read a number of Duggar articles, including from the Inquisitr, and often THEIR sources are the folks at Free Jinger. Often the speculation at FJ is turned into a “credible” news story by one of these rags. Unlike the “writers” **cough** who work for these gossip mags, there are people from all walks of life, many talented investigators, at FJ who actually go out and dig up records and post (sometimes) credible information. That Facebook “Life is not All Pickles and Hairspray” woman also often co-opts FJ members’ work (and usually doesn’t give credit). For everything Duggar, check out http://www.freejinger.org/forum/251-quiver-full-of-duggars

  140. Not sure why you think it important to keep everyone “updated” with all that’s happening with the Duggars. They’re facing a family tragedy and really don’t need any prying eyes, particularly from those who claim the Name of Christ. What’s you’re really engaging in is a form of gossip …

  141. @ WOB:

    Let me get your reasoning straight.

    The Duggars promote themselves on TV, (which is a public media) making millions of dollars by telling us all how to raise a moral family.
    They sell their baby pictures and wedding pictures to People Magazine, proclaiming their godly upbringing.
    They asked for a camera man to be removed from their media team because he was gay and that is too morally unsettling for them.
    They publicly support Bill Gothard who appears to have serious sex problems of his own.

    So, they get to tell us their side of the story in public. When we call them on their behavior, we are gossiping? Let me let you in on my thinking. If you jump up and down in public to be recognized for your obviously superior understanding of child raising, you get to be critiqued in public.

    They can *gossip* about themselves but we cannot respond? I would hate to be a member of your church.

  142. WOB wrote:

    really don’t need any prying eyes

    You mean the prying eyes they’ve invited into their home via TV for seven years? If they get to selectively choose what people see then there was never anything real about that reality show.