"NETS means New England Training and Sending. Training and sending is still what we do. Our hope is that we will do it better, and with greater impact, both in New England and beyond."
In our previous post, Dee called attention to an article published a few years ago on The Gospel Coalition's website entitled Spare the Rod Spoil the Church. It was written by Wes Pastor, who in 1992 planted Christ Memorial Church in Vermont. A biographical sketch called Meet Wes Pastor reveals that there were 50 (including children) at the church's first morning service. If the information is being kept up-to-date, the church has grown to 400 over the last 23 years and is the largest Baptist church in Vermont.
No doubt planting a church in New England is a daunting task, and Vermont has to be one of the more challenging states in which to accomplish such a feat. Perhaps that is why Wes Pastor felt qualified to establish a church planting organization called New England Training and Sending (NETS) Network. The website includes quite a bit of information, including the following (see screen shot):
Here is a brief video about the NETS Network.
What is NETS? includes quite a bit of information about this church planting network, which appears to have grown to 8 churches, including two in Cameroon. Here is a succinct description from the organization's website:
The NETS Network is a growing association of like-minded churches supporting one another through counsel, shared resources, and committed funds. All NETS Network churches are led by NETS field pastors.
Planting or replanting gospel-resistant soil can be long, hard, lonely labor. The NETS Network is there for you, helping your church to succeed, reproduce, and bear gospel fruit for generations to come.
Have you heard about 'Plant New England'? Back in 2013 leaders in the Southern Baptist Convention announced they would be trying to make inroads into New England through church plants. Such news caught the attention of The Huffington Post which published an article entitled Southern Baptists Expand North With Church Plants Amidst Declining Numbers. Fox News covered this development as well in a piece called Southern Baptists expand in New England with multi-million dollar church planting push.
We can't help but wonder whether the NETS Network is/was heavily involved since it launched Plant New England (see screen shot below).
As the above screen shot indicates, the conference was limited in size due to its location, which was Christ Memorial Church (Wes Pastor's church). Then it teamed up with The Gospel Coalition, 9Marks and Sovereign Grace Ministries to Plant New England. Remember, this was 2011…
There have held several conferences since then. And on September 25, 2015, Wes Pastor made the following announcement regarding the organization's name change.
Not only is NETS focused on planting churches but it is adding to its mission the revitalization of existing churches. In other words, churches in New England (and beyond) that are do not have a Reformed orientation to the gospel will be taught the error of their ways and will be assimilated.
As stated previously, the 8 NETS churches are located in New England and Cameroon. However, plans are being made to set up shop in Dubai (see screen shot below).
It was interesting to watch the Southern Baptist Convention recall hundreds of missionaries from around the world due to budget limitations. Will there be some sort of alignment of the IMB and NAMB in the coming years? And will the NETS Network somehow be involved now that they are focused on both church planting and revitalization? Here is a 2014 NETS video that may provide some clues as to the future direction of the SBC.
Several days ago the NETS blog was updated with the following information regarding its upcoming banquet.
The link in the screen shot above does not yet work, so we are not sure when the NETS banquet will take place. As indicated in the post, we know it will be held in Louisville — perhaps it will be in conjunction with the 2016 Together for the Gospel conference??? Since there are no details available at this time, at least we can speculate…
It will be fascinating to see whether the Southern Baptist Convention teams up with NETS in the years to come to plant or revitalize churches not only in New England but around the globe. Glad our readers (like Todd Wilhelm in Dubai) will be 'watching' with us.
***************
We would be remiss if we didn't call attention to today's date – October 21, 2015 – and its significance in Back to the Future. Wish we could have edited out one offensive word in this video…
First?
@ Dave A A Yippee!
It appears that the Cameroon churches and seminary mentioned are in the western sector of the country that is anglophone. Years ago, we worked in the francophone eastern sector and crossed over into Central African Republic – also francophone. In both Cameroon and RCA, there are today factions that conscript minors into their militia. It is a very difficult time for families in the region. Would that God do a mighty work there, apart from or in spite of the USA church politics.
‘Less than 1% are evangelical minded in Providence, RH’ ((quote from the second video))…dare I say it almost makes me want to move there!
Is there a spot in the US where one doesn’t have to be tormented by the Gospel™ Brotherhood?!
Will be curious as to how this plays out. I travel the US year-round ((Home Base is TN)) and have to say folks in New England aren’t keen on the SBC traditions & methods.
I’m currently working in Maine and just had a conversation with some coworkers re: southern culture, specifically religious tendencies; their perspectives towards a lot of it is not positive.
4th…. the worst place to finish…
🙁
@ Deb:
Name change because—- planting can be a heck of a lot longer, harder, and lonelier labor than “replanting” or “revitalization”, where you start out already having a building and giving units.
"It will be fascinating to see whether the Southern Baptist Convention teams up with NETS in the years to come to plant or revitalize churches not only in New England but around the globe. "
Sounds to me they already have. Just not officially. One has to wonder how much NAMB money is involved.
Why would a New England based organization have their big banquet at SBTS? Also, some may not know Schreiner is a prof at SBTS.
I love how New Englanders “needing the Gospel” = there not being enough Neo-Calvinist churches here. We dealt with the Puritans the first time around, guys. Why should the Neo-Puritans be any more appealing?
Reminds me of something dumb the associate pastor at my church said a few weeks after he first moved here from IN. He claimed from the pulpit that “religion is ridiculed” in New England. Because he had so much experience accurately describing his environment after living here for a month.
@ Hester:
The Puritans were my first thought, too.
Lydia wrote:
Agreed. It's usually about the money with these guys.
@ Hester: Great comment!
Lydia wrote:
I didn’t know much about Tom Schreiner until he guest preached for Mahaney at SGC Louisville. It was then that I started paying attention to his name.
According to his bio at Theopedia, Schreiner taught at Bethel Seminary for 11 years.
http://www.theopedia.com/thomas-schreiner
No doubt this time period was when he and John Piper became good friends. Schreiner contributed an article to the tome Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, published in 1991. It was entitled “Head Coverings, Prophecies and the Trinity: 1 Corinthians 11:2-16”.
The alarm bells started going off in my head when I saw the word “revitalization”. What is their definition of “revitalization?”
This reminds me of when the old Boston Movement from my background, the Churches of Christ, started “reconstructing” and “replanting” churches that their “mother movement”, the Crossroads Movement, had started. “Reconstruction” meant that new leaders came in, and everyone’s conversion and life in Christ was examined. More often than not, they were told that they weren’t really Christians in the first place and that they needed to be rebaptized.
I have a hunch that there will be changes in church leadership and that several members will either be asked to leave or placed under church discipline as a result of this “revitalization”.
Tina wrote:
These guys do all the defining. We already know the theology will be Reformed and that complementarianism will be of primary importance.
@ Deb:
I did not realize he was at Bethel. Wonder if he was there when Piper was working toward getting Greg Boyd fired?
Deb wrote:
With the exodus of the “Dones” and “Nones” (Josh Packard, sociologist from the University of Northern Colorado), there is bound to be more re-grouping and re-branding for the sake of survival ($$$).
@ lydia:
Schreiner joined the faculty at SBTS in 1997. He had previously taught at Bethel Theological Seminary for 11 years, so he was there when Piper launched his crusade against Boyd (if his Theopedia bio is accurate).
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thepangeablog/2014/07/07/farewell-john-piper/
Boyd stated:
Tina wrote:
Well… In Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea “revitalization” was what they called Seaview’s life-support system.
I remember sitting in chapel at Southeastern and hearing about this project. My first thought: Great, they’re going to plant Calvinist churches in New England and spread Calvinism — cuz, you know, that’s what they do. What they call spreading “the Gospel” is them spreading Calvinism.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, to which they insist to subscribe, is a *Presbyterian* document:
“I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church; but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.
“II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.
“III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.
“IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.”
Glad to see *Baptists* agree with a *Presbyterian* document.
Lastly, “revitalization” = “assimilation” = the Borg.
Tina wrote:
We convince enough of your people to give us your stuff and then we let you stay if you agree with us or at least keep quiet. Because if you do not believe that TULIP is Gospel and that Complementarianism is Gospel, and that the LocalChurchwithCovenantsandDiscipline is the Gospel, then you are without the Gospel and, therefore, dead. You need to be revitalized! And they will use the resources of other similarly dead people in the SBC to revitalize you until you either capitulate or leave. Because they are a parasitic movement that does not rely on the Holy Spirit but on the strategies and values of the world.
Deb wrote “It was interesting to watch the Southern Baptist Convention recall hundreds of missionaries from around the world due to budget limitations.”
At the same time SBC’s International Mission Board (IMB) is recalling 600-800 foreign missionaries, its home mission agency – the North American Mission Board – is enjoying a 60 million dollar budget to plant new churches! The new church plants are predominantly young, restless and reformed. Wouldn’t it have been better for NAMB to delay church plants (predominantly Calvinist) and channel monies to its sister agency IMB to keep long-time missionaries (predominantly non-Calvinist) on their fields? It’s clear where the priority lies in SBC’s “outreach” these days. Is SBC planting churches or reformed theology?
“… we hold fast to complementarianism and a Reformed orientation …”
Women of New England beware!!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
For a totally voluntary yet significant love offering, we will negate Dave AA’s position and declare you the winner.
@ A.M.:
Having grown up in Salem, Mass and still having family in the area, I predict that the “beat them over the head” with obedience and doctrinal minute will not sell well. The Christians that do the best are the ones who embrace a unity of different points of view on the secondary expressions of the Gospel. Tim Challies and Al Mohler and their harping on Young Earth creationism will not be receive well in that environment.
@ Lydia:
I find this “let’s go to Dubai” initiative a bit curious. I am wondering if things are not going as well as hoped in New England and they are now looking for more fertile ground. Funny-there are already two 9 Marks churches in Dubai.
@ Hester:
Great comment. Their definition of the gospel™ is believing in secondary doctrine their way. The patriarch stuff will not sell in Boston.
Tina wrote:
I remember this. Several young people left Park Street Church to attend the Boston Movement church. They lasted about 8 months and came crawling back, exhausted and dismayed.
I think I’ll alert my *female* pastor about this and get her allied with some people and plant an egalitarian Episcopal Church next door to every one of their church plants.
(kidding)
(kind of)
@ dee:
I, too, was curious about Dubai. Say, instead of a place like Burkina Faso? :o)
Money?
And Why is Dubai such fertile ground for “expats” and not Muslims?
It would be interesting to check the zip codes of their networked churches.
@ Gram3:
Yes, in Louisville we found out revitalization means using Other Peoples Money to gain debt free churches for a YRR pastor to take over.
And yes, they are masters of playing fast and loose with by laws…until they have power to rewrite them. Ezell’s (NAMB president and Mohler yes man) former church did this saying there was no provision in the by laws for shut ins to vote! Think of people who were there 30 years (an old est church) and still giving denied a vote because they could not come to the building.
If you guys wonder why I think so little of these men, there are thousands of examples. They are cruel and duplicitous.
dee wrote:
🙂 I’ll match anything Mr Bulbeck donates, plus 10%.
William wrote:
Totally off topic: William, did you have Micah Mattix for any of your English classes?
I have a couple of thoughts regarding NETS and the whole New England/More Than New England push:
1. In 1997 SEBTS launched a massive push to church plant in New Hampshire. At the time Paige Patterson was president, and as most know, he is DECIDEDLY anti-Calvinist. I remember sitting in several chapel sessions listening to appeals to move to NH to church plant, or to greater New England. (Ironically, I almost did when I transferred to Gordon Conwell but it was too expensive in Boston so I took classes at the Charlotte campus.)
2. NETS is a misnomer, unless world geography has changed. Cameroon and Dubai? Hmmm, western Cameroon is not hostile to Christianity and Dubai is the most open of all the Arabian countries (as Todd has pointed out). What this is starting to sound like is A29 with a more Neo-Calvinistic leaning. I wonder if NETS will eventually replace A29 as the go to church planting (CP) network for the TGC/9M crowd.
Revitalization = Stealth takeover?
NAMB/IMB: NAMB just gave $4 million to IMB, and Ronnie Floyd began his sales pitch for combining the two into one entity a few weeks ago.
New England: My husband is from Maine. I have visited Maine quite a bit. Church planters will have to very tread lightly there or they will very quickly fail ~~ there will be no second chance for a church planter. Complementarianism??? Even if perchance some Mainiac men get on board, the women will not go quietly into the night. The insistence on “complementarianism” will trigger divorces.
A few months ago (without my knowledge ~ did I say that my husband is from Maine?), my husband was planning to start a planter church in Maine. After our “blow-up” when I found out everything, I got nosy. My husband was working through the NAMB. He had been in contact with Keith Lawrence, of the Maine Baptist Association. Mr. Lawrence had told my husband that starting a planter church with the MBA would be a seven year commitment (contract). We are Missionary Baptists. There is only one Missionary Baptist in Maine, and ther are several churches in the MBA that do not have the word “Baptist” in their names.
@ dee:
Nope. Any New Englander reading the stuff in the OP could tell them that they do NOT understand their mission field at all. Esp. since there are so many Catholics here. “Religion is dead in New England” only works if you redefine “religion” to mean “my particular denomination of Protestant Christianity.”
Nancy2 wrote:
They need this money for their new strategy to replace the over 50 crowd they gave a Godfather deal to get rid of — with young Neo Cals who will be less trained and not expected to assimilate.
My guess is we are looking at a strategy to plant new churches overseas with those trained in “correct” Neo Cal doctrine. They just aren’t saying so upfront.
@ William:
I also loved how they called themselves “interdenominational” and then proceeded to loudly label themselves Reformed/Calvinist and Baptist. Somehow I don’t think they’d mesh very well with Wesleyan or Greek Orthodox folk despite their “interdenominationality.”
@ Nancy2:
It would be interesting to know the seven year financial commitment from NAMB.
knowing part of the Maine area pretty well, Calvinism is already there and has been for sometime. The culture of churches has been dominated by pastors or preachers that attended New Brunswick Bible Institute, Glen Cove Bible college which has closed its doors but the effects still remain. Ministries like CEF which are complementarian are quite large in the area and churches that adhere to the 9marks credo are more prevalent than one might think. The sending out of missionaries to plant these types of churches is supported by more local churches there already. These guys just see fertile territory and can go in and reap the harvest so to speak.
Tina wrote:
Getting off topic…. but, I was in college(late 80s) during part of that movement. I lost a couple of friends who actually moved to Boston to be “disciples”. Then there was Gwen Shamblin and her “Weigh Down” cult. Had some friends who actually worked for her and moved to Nashville. Thankfully, most of them wised up.
Nice to see another former CofCer here!
I’m surprised I don’t see Jared Wilson’s name in all of this. Doesn’t he have a church in Vermont?
Burwell Stark wrote:
I don’t think so. They all have a black eye from acts29 and they know it. However, One of the more successful Acts 29 plants distanced themselves a few years ago and started their own network: Sojourn. Has Driscoll DNA all oved it. They even hired Mars Hill staff pastors.
Then you have the Baptist 21 guys which are basically Danny Akin’s sons building their network using daddykins gravitas. They’re all Neo Cals.
It is all about networking and building a huge Neo Cal brand in evangelicalism. It is all about making money off networked churches, conferences, books and speaking gigs.
@ Brian:
Jared has moved on to greener pastures. Here is what he reveals about himself.
http://jaredcwilson.com/bio/
@ Deb:
What is “content strategy”. If I recall correctly, that is similar to the title LifeWay gave Barnabas Piper.
Sounds Orwellian.
@ Kevin:
Thanks for this insight.
That business of mentioning complementarianism in the same sentence as the Gospel (and in that order) is just weird. Apparently they see feminism as the biggest, or one of the biggest, foes of the gospel in our time.
@ Kevin:
Are you familiar with Oxford County (Bethel, Rumford, Paris)? I know a century or two ago Calvinism was a big thing there. Now, most churches in Oxford County are empty, unless there’s a wedding or a funeral. The last time we were in Maine, we visited a new church. It was not friendly! The song leader was the ONLY person who spoke to us.
Right now, I am only aware of three churches in Maine that are admittedly Reformed, and one of those may have recently closed it’s doors. New Brunswick (Canada)has about 100 students.
Of course, it’s been 4 or 5 years since I’ve spent much time in Maine.
lydia wrote:
A “content strategist” most likely means “Recipient of Nepotism”. I am not completely sure if this is a result of Postmodernism or PoMo simply accelerated it, but we are increasingly in an age where words do not mean anything but what we want them to mean at the time (a lack of definition and precision). While President Clinton’s infamous statement stands as one of the best known examples, the practice is certainly not restricted to politics.
dee wrote:
That’s a great biblical focus on achieving gospel results, Dee – we’ll make a YRR out of you yet!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Excuse Me, but I Am still here.
Best regards,
God
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Ahem.
It has been brought to my attention that in my passionate zeal to reach many gospels for Jesus, my previous comment may have inadvertently created the impression that some of my co-workers had contemplated
briberyan overzealous use of gospelJesus funds.It would appear that mistakes were made.
I can assure you all that my entire gospel focus is to servJesus for the gospel of Jesus. I am truly grieved and broken – sniff – that hurt was caused by my love for Jesus as I biblical gospel Jesus.
It was somebody else’s fault, but through my great love for Jesus I forgive those people who have so cruelly attacked me, and did I mention Jesus already?
William wrote:
Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?
CALVIN who has God All Figured Out!
lydia wrote:
Purity of Ideology, Comrade.
Purity of Ideology.
Ask any survivor of Cambodia’s Killing Fields.
lydia wrote:
“Some will question what we do is legal or not. Before that can happen, make sure WE are the ones who define what is legal and what is not.”
— L Ron Hubbard
Tina wrote:
After the Coup comes the Purge, Comrades.
lydia wrote:
Writing books to “engage the culture”.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
At last. Somebody in this festering pit of accusation and calumny who is truly Christ-centred.
If the rest of you would focus on Jesus as much as Nick Bulbeck’s last comment, instead of on attacking other believers and slandering godly men, all the world’s problems would disappear.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to savour the aroma of my own flatulence.
Up Yours sincerely,
Roger Bombast
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thank you Pseudo-Screwtape, excellently done.
@ Nancy2:
I know of some churches in that area from other folks but not intimately aware of their background or goings on. My experience is mostly midcoast Maine and some central near Augusta.
Kevin wrote:
This makes sense for 9Marks and the like. The coast is where the money is. The Western Maine mountain area is relatively poor. My husband is from Oxford County.
This is of interest to me, as I live in southern New England. I looked up the NETS church in CT, which they claim is the largest evangelical church in CT, a whopping 125 in attendence…Liar, liar, pants on fire!
I guess the Church I attend ( about 160/170 ) doesn’t count as evangelical as we American Baptist and non reformed. Really the hubris of their statement says it all.
Interesting sidenote, a new Southern Baptist plant (not associated with this group) was established in my town two years ago. Same dismal picture of New England is painted, ” darkness”, no church attendance, etc. We have a lot of Catholics who do attend church, guess their attendance doesn’t count.
Anyway, watching this new SB plant, so far, a good number of the people who go there, have been pulled from other evangelical churches.
I wrote about Democratic Kampuchea and Pol Pot and the Killing Fields the other day. Will evangelicals be able to police themselves, and solve their own problems? I honestly don’t know….My hope is that moderate atheists and secularists can intervene and make that phone call or report a questionable ministry.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/theological-lessons-from-democratic-kampuchea-why-atheists-need-to-help-police-modern-evangelical-christianity/
I also did a post prior to this on the problem of pain and suffering and showed how differing individuals such as Ben Petrick, Scott Hamilton and David and Derek Carr responded and dealt with this difficult topic.
Mae wrote:
You are correct, Mae. If your church doesn’t belong to the sending group, then it doesn’t count and never will. And pulling from other evangelical churches is acceptable because it is considered leading the people out of darkness and into the marvelous light…of whatever theology the sending groups aligns with.
Back in ’97, the big push as SEBTS was New Hampshire (see my previous comment). It was sold as a place of rampant darkness, etc.; largely because there were only 15 SBC churches in the entire state.
Oh, my. Pardon me for being cynical, but based on our own experience with the doctrine/theology, it appears that a destructive fungus is spreading rapidly, with the end result of inoculating the next generation *against* anything to do with the “christian” god and the bible and “faith” and “gospel”.
@ Deb:
How cute…if this is their history are they going to hold witch trials in the NE and determine who is and who is not a Christian? Mass hangings anyone?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Have I mentioned I’m glad to be off the whole christian institutional treadmill?
lydia wrote:
You’re referring to Brad House? To be fair he was one of the people from mars Hill that signed a letter saying that the treatment of Paul Petry and Bent Meyer was wrong. I do credit Brad for that…
dee wrote:
Perhaps they’re looking to revitalize their coffers in lieu of “revitalizing” churches. Just the name “Dubai” conjures visions of wealth spilling over.
Max wrote:
Amen. These are not the chains of Christ that Paul was so honored to bear, but chains of a different master altogether.
Gram3 wrote:
So well said, I felt the need to quote this in its entirety.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Didn’t they get taken over by monsters quite often in that show?
Dave A A wrote:
On second thought, “engaging the culture” is the speciality of Owen (not John) BHLH.
Wilson’s is “For the Church” (PR).
refugee wrote:
Let me rephrase that. Don’t they get taken over by monsters masquerading as members of the crew, quite often in that show?
Great parallel to the YRR “revitalization” crowd.
@ Eagle:
There was another one…cannot remember his name. May not even be there now. When did the letter thing happen? Was it while he still worked for Driscoll?
You won’t see me defending Sojourn guys ever. What do you think the pastors told a couple whose baby was born dead? It was God’s plan for them. I know a lot of people who went there. It is the same stuff. Power, control and stealth determinism. Not overt because they desperately need paying consumers. They target neighborhoods with “redemption” groups. They start out asking people to host a bible study and invite neighbors. Once it gets going (women recruit) they have a young man from seminary take over the group in your home.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
For sure!
@ Burwell Stark:
IMO, A lot of it is a result of image and perception being of more value than substance or truth. And that is across society. And, sadly, it works.
refugee wrote:
In between the Seaweed Kaiju of the week.
refugee wrote:
“Look over there, Flim!”
“What, Flam?”
“Ponies with too much money! Let’s relieve them of that problem!”
(Musical number follows.)
@ Deb:
“Jared has moved on to greener pastures. Here is what he reveals about himself.”
+++++++++++++++++++
he’s being honest, at least. (or so it seems)
@ Bill M:
“Have I mentioned I’m glad to be off the whole christian institutional treadmill?”
+++++++++++++
the fresh air is fabulous. like, virtually living in the Sierras, every day, every night. sleep is good. and God & I are like “this” (fingers crossed).
lydia wrote:
Tim Beltz. Still there. He became an MH executive just after the 2007 re-organization and bus driving, and apparently before that was a consultant who helped re-organize. http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2012/06/mars-hill-shoreline-and-pastor-tim.html
The letter was only 11/02/14, after Driscoll had safely re-signed.
To bring this back to NETS and their “re-planting”, this term may have been invented by Scott Thomas, former fellow MH executive and Acts29 honcho, now Journeying in St Louis. He signed the belated apology as well.
If someone else invented re-planting and Thomas just re-invented it, feel free to give credit. Do we have Ed Stetzer to thank for “re-vitalization” or did he re-vive the concept?
I do believe “re-surgence” is still the official property of Pastormark.
Dave A A wrote:
Better known as 02/11/14 for Beakerj, Ken, Nick, Roger Bombast, and *god*.
Dave A A wrote:
Looks as if the details on Mars Hill Church trademarks — including “Resurgence” for its publishing — have not been changed yet, though the Trademark database is updated regularly.
Here’s some info I posted on trademarks a while back, with some of the trademark serial numbers added in square brackets.
The misuse of trademarks, logos, word marks, and other such intellectual property has been noted as one of the top problems that non-profits tend to get into. If you want to research the series of registered trademarks related to Mars Hill Church, here is the procedure:
Go to the United States Patent and Trademark Office site.
http://www.uspto.gov/main/profiles/acadres.htm
Choose SEARCH TRADEMARKS (right hand side of the screen).
Select BASIC WORD MARK SEARCH.
Search Term = Mars Hill Church [or Resurgence]
Field = ALL
Submit Query
In the results, not all of Mars Hill items belong to Mars Hill Church in Seattle. The registered trademarks links that are relevant include:
Mars Hill Church
Mars Hill Music
Re:Lit
Re:Sound
Re:Train
R [Serial number = 85563474]
Resurgence [Serial number = 85763326]
Click on the link for a profile page that includes the registered owner of the trademark.
@ lydia:
Eagle: “You’re referring to Brad House? To be fair he was one of the people from mars Hill that signed a letter saying that the treatment of Paul Petry and Bent Meyer was wrong. I do credit Brad for that…”
Lydia: “There was another one…cannot remember his name. May not even be there now. When did the letter thing happen? Was it while he still worked for Driscoll?”
+++++++++++++++++
The letter was dated November 2, 2014. The appalling treatment of Paul Petry/Bent Meyer was in 2007. The Petries’ disclosure of it all has been public for a number of years. Until that letter was published (7 years later), I’d been just amazed at the silence of Brad House, etc.
Burwell Stark:
Did you ever run into my friend Robbi Fischer at Forest Hill Church in Charlotte? They used to host (and may still) the Gordon Conwell campus in Charlotte.
I believe that church planting efforts in the Northeast will have some success. I am not sure how much success or whether this group, in particular, will prove to be successful.
There are significant cultural barriers, some based on perception, some based on reality, that have been problems.
Tim Keller with the PCA has done a great job in NYC. When I was in Boston a few years ago, I attended a Redeemer plant there. Not sure how it is doing now.
The SBC has had churches in all 50 states since 1960 or so. Most of those churches had transplanted Southerners in them.
Theological education in the North by the SBC is doing well. The thing that has helped the most has been the realization that having extension campuses in today’s world is not necessary. Whereas Southern used to have campuses in NYC, Boston, Harrisburg PA (I think I have that right), the cost of the facilities, along with having to fly professors in and out, is now unnecessary. This can all be done online.
These areas can also be good places to plant ethnic churches in communities where immigrants arrive from other countries, especially those countries that are closed to the Gospel.
This group, the SBC, the PCA and other evangelical groups will have some gains, I believe, in the years to come.
#1 They lost me at “A Brotherhood of Men.” Not only is that ridiculous, but it’s redundant.
#2 I’m guessing that New England is in as much dire need of new churches as Portland, OR is. Portland has always been one of the most unchurched areas in the U.S., but drive by any street and a church is not hard to find.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I should have used “:” instead of “-” in my “re” words.
So “resurgence” still belongs, officially, to the still-existing Mars Hill church? Last I saw, even Throckmorton couldn’t figure out exactly who runs what’s left of Mars Hill. A year or so ago, I re:call the only re:al members of MH were MD, Bruskas, and Turner. Does MH now equal MD? I re:member a strange incident in which the former PR guy put the re:surgence mailing list up for sale, and then had to re:tract it when someone emailed uncomplimentary things about Driscoll.
Dave A A wrote:
Listen, sonny – it’s thanks to Me you have dates in the first place. 😉
Best regards,
God
@ elastigirl:
I thought some time had passed. It is amazing how contrite one can be when the gravy train is going off the rails.
@ lydia:
Lydia-
Read the link, there was a letter sent to Paul Petry and Bent Meyer that a number of former Mars Hill elders (15) signed. It addressed the issues in the 2007 trial.
http://repentantpastor.com/confessions/letter-confession-bent-meyer-paul-petry/
@ Dave A A:
Well, it’s been just over a year since Mark Driscoll re:signed, and — at least publicly — no one seems to know what re:mains. It was, is, and shall be a mess.
P.S. I suppose that by using ” – ” instead of ” : ” you wouldn’t be guilty of an exact duplication of the registered wordmark. Well done, Dave A A!
Eagle wrote:
Most of them are still in paying ministry jobs. Why? Because they confessed when they saw it crumbling? I would have a ton of respect for these guys if they got out of paid ministry. But this looks like image rehab to me.
Tina wrote:
I can’t recall if I mentioned before that I have a daughter in the ICOC. She became convinced she wasn’t re:ally a Christian in the first place and needed to be re:baptized. Her first baptism, by her father who was at the time a pastor and a failing church-planter (tried to “plant” in a poverty-stricken locale) just wasn’t re:al.
Of course, good ol’ Kip McKean would probably want the whole ICOC to be re:baptized, since they’re no longer re:al disciples and not “sold out”.
@ Hester:
I know. But they don’t seem intetested in actual people, so why bother doing any research?
I can’t imagine thst most people in the New England states would so much as give them the time of day. Even if they *are* planning “stealth” takeovers of Unitarian churches, or whstever… 😉
@ Burwell Stark:
Burwell,
Sorry — I’ve been out most of the day. I did, in fact, have the awesome and audacious Micah Mattix for a semester of British Literature, I believe it was. He was one of my few favorites. He left the following semester.
@ Anonymous:
“Ethnic churches”? That’s an odd way to characterize recent immigrants from anywhere, imo…
I never post (just read the comments) but I thought this was a good time to chime in since I’m a Boston girl (born and raised). I never really understood the whole “darkness in New England” speech that I’ve heard so much throughout my life, especially since I’ve grown up in a family of ministers, gone to church all of my life in Cambridge (down the street from Harvard!), went to a Jesuit college in MA, and now go to an evangelical seminary (in MA). I don’t understand this theme of “God is forgotten in Boston!” There are so many people who love God here and so many churches that are involved in the city. It annoys me when denominations feel the need to save “godless Boston.” It’s like they haven’t talked to the people who actually live here (or only talked to certain people). I think you should plant churches if you feel called to it but it feels like people sometimes just want to set up a mini-corporation here. And we don’t like that. In my neighborhood (in Boston) we don’t even let Starbucks have a shop. We are Dunkin’ Donuts people all the way.
And Dee you mentioned Park Street Church. I love Park Street! I’m not a member there but I visit from time to time.
dee wrote:
Quite right, it will not sell. For which we will be branded as….rebellious, unrepentant, reprobate.
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy2, and Kevin,
I’m in the Mt Desert Island/Ellsworth area of Maine. There is only one 9Marks church nearby, Congregationalist (CCCC), but two American Baptist (ABC) churches are headed in that direction, one already with a change to “elder format” and another (my church) headed in that direction along with complementarianism and reformed theology, something new to most, although we are a conservative church.
You’re right, there is a lot of money in this coastal area, but not so much among those who attend Baptist churches. Mostly it’s among the summer residents, who do provide employment for year-rounders.
This seems to be an indigenous movement, no church planter required; however it’s facilitated by Mark Dever, Capital Hill Baptist Church, the 9Marks publications, and a “Weekender” conference at CHBC attended by some of our people. They came back from DC as jubilated as the 72 that Jesus sent out.
Incidentally, with the move toward “elder format” and classes on complementariansism and reformed theology, I feel like I’m living in a blogpost at The Wartburg Watch the past couple of years.
Most people in our church are unaware or apathetic. Only seven (7) people were at the after-church meeting on Sunday to discuss this, and about the same at a meeting last spring.
My headache comes back when I think about the meeting.
Hester wrote:
That reminds me of when hubby and me were living outside of Atlanta, and attending church. They were sending out a pastor to plant a church in MA. You can’t imagine the ignorance they proclaimed in regards to the spiritual flavor of New England. That was thirty years ago, but I am guessing it’s not changed much.
Ted wrote:
That is the bigger problem. These churches are easy to take over. You do have to wonder how apathetic they will be after they sign the contract…err covenant and then miss church a few times and are “disciplined”.
@ Lydia:
“Disciplined” . . . I couldn’t help but laugh, and I know this is no laughing matter, but these guys treat members of the Body of Christ like unruly little children. What God must be thinking . . .
@ Ted:
Very sorry to hear that, Ted, but I believe at some point you’re going to be forced to do what Dylan sang: “Serve somebody”, and my best guess is you will find it impossible to serve both your self-appointed leaders and the Lord.
Ted wrote:
OT. I was just there two weeks ago for a New England trip. It was beautiful up there, although Autumn was a bit late. Long Pond was beautiful, and Acadia, and Bar Harbor. I actually liked the quiet side much better.
Dave A A wrote:
Dave, missed this earlier. Yes, that is the one.
@ numo:
Numo:
I have seen the term “Ethnic” church used to describe churches made up of people of a distinct ethnic minority – as opposed to the anglo majority in the U.S.
For example, we have a Burmese church that meets on our church property at a separate time. Most of the adults are recent immigrants who do not speak English. They have a Burmese speaking pastor, use Bibles written in Burmese, and sing in Burmese.
Many immigrants have come to the U.S. in recent years from countries that would not allow the planting of a church.
That’s what I mean. Hope it makes sense. I have seen this term used before. Promise that I did not invent it.
Anonymous wrote:
with what? You mean numbers?
Ted wrote:
We’ve been camping in Acadia and explored Cadillac Mtn. Breathtaking! I took lots of photos! I have a gold-toned lobster lapel pin from there that I wear quite often. I think of Mt. Desert every time I wear the pin, and sometimes even when I don’t!Ted wrote:
That’ scary. Do you think that 9Marks/YRR can really get a foothold there?
@ Ted:
Sad to read Tim. Little do they realize, when it’s all said and done, they will either conform, or be shown the door.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I’m reminded of the former Evergreen Christian Fellowship, a cautionary tale of ever there was one for churches which want to “live again” (revitalization) via the Acts 29 method.
http://sammamishreview.com/tag/evergreen-christian-fellowship
Just over 3 years from revitalization to — SOLD!
Anonymous wrote:
There are definite culture barriers just between Kentuckians and “Mainiacs” (my husband’s terminology). I have seen refugees from war-torn African countries in Portland, ME. From what I have seen, racism runs rampant there!
@ Ted:
Ted…what did they speak about at the meeting?
@ Lydia:
He was one of many to run Petry and Meyer over in the Driscoll-driven bus, only to disappear (presumably with a non-disclosure-agreement and severance package) from MH after Turner led the next reorganization. Then popping up elsewhere and returning to business as usual.
End of Mars Hill rants– we promises!
@ Lydia:
I don’t know what their numbers are.
I have visited, and enjoyed it. I have had friends who live in NYC from Mexico who were members. They enjoyed it. I have another friend who was reared in my city and swore off organized religion for years. She is involved in the acting and film community. She attends and likes it.
I believe that Keller is a respected voice for the faith in NYC, even by those who do not believe.
@ Nancy2:
These kind of cultural tensions can pop up even when you don’t expect them.
A guy on the staff of our church has a fairly significant ministry with people who have immigrated from Muslim countries.
He knows 2 guys who really love the Lord. One guy is a Kurd who came to know the Lord years ago. He is in seminary now.
Another guy is a Turk and has been a Christian for years.
When he was talking to the Kurd about getting together with the guy from Turkey, you would thought WWIII was going to start. The Kurd said that he did not think he would want to get to know the guy from Turkey.
It makes sense. These countries are at war, and have been at war for decades.
But the way we see them – 2 guys from the middle east who have converted – we expect them to love each other.
Nancy2 wrote:
A foothold? Yes. A large one? No.
At some point, the YRR is going to blow themselves up…They ( IMO) cause more and more people to become ” Nones” and ” Dones” and I do not see the trend ending.
Anonymous wrote:
That is my recollection as well. I started working on church planting teams in the mid-1990s, and later took courses in church planting at a Southern Baptist Seminary. The term “ethnic churches” was used then for those primarily consisting of racial/ethnic minorities, and is still in use by the SBC, for example this article from 2013 on “SBC ethnic congregations up 66 percent since 1998.”
http://www.namb.net/nambblog1.aspx?id=8590124402&blogid=8589939695
I’m fairly certain I’ve seen “ethnic church” or at least “racial and ethnic groups” used in church planting materials from other denominations as well.
I don’t know that I’ve seen “ethnic church” used very much in reference to new(er) congregations that are geared more for recent immigrant and refugee people groups. I think I’ve seen at least three patterns for church names and/or their own descriptions of their gathering:
* Language-based name, like Farsi Baptist Church.
* Country of origin, like Afghani fellowship, or Brazilian Baptist Church, which may be a combination of country and language.
* Larger groupings, like Pan-Asian church (geared to the commonalities of 2nd- and 3rd-generations of Asian immigrant populations, who are assimilated to American culture and the service is in English) or “multicultural” church.
There may be more patterns, but those came to mind.
I don’t really like “ethnic church” used as a label — it feels institutionalizing. And that’s just one of a whole lot of important missionary and church planting issues behind churches and their culture(s), descriptions, names, and labels. Having a church in one’s “heart language”/native tongue is an important one. Churches where there are people from different cultures present is another, when one of the people groups has traditionally been in a position of power over the other(s) and will that lockout of “leadership” continue in the church? Generational dynamics are difficult in cultures where chronological elders are traditionally in charge, and young generation potential leaders know they won’t get to do much until they’re 50-ish and so some drop out or go to next-gen type churches.
Of course, if one is “planting” Calvinianity instead of Christianity, those complexities are irrelevant. It’s all about conformity, and **never** diversity.
Anonymous wrote:
They may be Christians now, but they are still human. In a situation like that, brotherly love takes time, even with a conscious effort on both parts …….. sometimes a couple of generations, even.
Two things raised big red flags, as opposed the myriad little ones.
1) Men supporting men as leaders. Apparently “No girlz allowed”.
2) 1% Evangelical = darkness.
Don’t underestimate them. They’re masters of manipulation.
As for me, I’m proud to be an infant baptized, evolution supporting, bible criticizing, fully egalitarian Christian-ish (depending on the day of week) person. Bring on the darkness! Ho-yah! Providence is my kind of town!
Anonymous wrote:
No, you did not invent it. I have heard it used a lot. We have an interesting ‘ethnic’ church in a near by town composed of Arabic speaking people and the church is SBC. They play up the fact that they are/consider themselves Arabs (apparently a broad term) and have a yearly festival similar to the Greek festival except much smaller. The church is small and probably struggling but unique and ‘out there’ in the community.
Anonymous wrote:
Same thing with Ethnic Parishes in the RCC. My home parish of St Boniface is a double-ethnic parish, with Masses in three languages (English, Spanish, and Vietnamese), and there are some ethnic missions (too small to be a full parish) for other language groups/ethnicities such as Koreans.
One Easter I was caught out-of-town and had to make Easter Vigil Mass at the nearest parish. I didn’t know it was an ethnic parish (Vietnamese); I was the only one there giving the responses in English.
Mae wrote:
Counter-revolutionary, Reactionary, Imperialist Stooge, Thought-Criminal, Goldsteinist…
numo wrote:
Weren’t those Unitarian churches in New England started by the burned-out descendants of Calvinist Puritans?
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Sounds like those Sovereign Citizen types who spell their names ::first-middle:last:: or :first-middle:of House last: instead of the Gubmint Legal Fiction Name FIRST MIDDLE LAST.
About the ethnic church idea, SBC mega here has a chinese church which meets in another part of the building and another southern asia group relocated here by the gov which also meets somewhere over there, all in their own languages with their own pastors. At the same time SBC mega is a multicampus organization and one of the campuses is spanish speaking exclusively.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Hee Hee. Yes.
Corina wrote:
Agree totally. Here, too.
Nancy2 wrote:
I've heard that there are issues between "Mainiacs" and people from Massachusetts who have moved to Maine to avoid the high taxes of their former home. The locals call them "Mass Holes".
Interesting conversation about New England. Having grown up in southeastern CT, I did feel like I was in a spiritual dessert or dark place. In spite of that, I came to the Lord through a combination of reading Christian books and the Catholic charismatic movement (but my charismatic days are gone). There was a cultic church that my brother and his family attended, which is long gone, and now there’s a Calvary chapel that I know of. Oh, and AG and a new church plant – not sure what persuasion it is. Most of my family is Catholic, with a mixed amount of devoutness and understanding. I haven’t lived there for years, so I don’t know what the climate is now spiritually. I just know it was difficult for me growing up. Some of that may have been things occurring in my life that colored my perception.
@ William:
He and I have been friends for nearly 20 years. I will tell him what you said and that you enjoyed his class!
lydia wrote:
That reminds me of
Pat Robertson: Comfort grieving mom by saying God stopped her dead baby from becoming next Hitler
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/pat-robertson-comfort-grieving-mom-by-saying-god-stopped-her-dead-baby-from-becoming-next-hitler/
All this talk about Christianity in New England has drawn me out of lurking-mode…
I grew up in SW Connecticut, in a town that was literally founded by a Puritan church in 1639. This church was the government. This town was actually a theocracy for many years, until the need (for security reasons) to join the CT colony required extending the vote to non-churchmembers.
Fast forward 300 and some years, and this was the exact church I grew up in. Only now it was very liberal and inclusive, and still is. But very Christian still.
What do any of these latter-day Baptist/Calvinist clowns know about Christianity in New England? It has a long, long history, and has evolved in many ways, and has subtleties of its own that I doubt any outsider can posibly fathom,
I feel like my old home church (that I haven’t been a part of for many years -I live too far away) is now closer to the teachings of Christ than it’s ever been in all its long history. And I feel like it’s what they were always aiming for.
Yes, I said the teachings of Christ. Read the Gospels, and try living up to the teachings of Christ. It is nothing like these Calvinista wack-jobs…
Why do people like to complicate things?
Kathi wrote:
“A Brotherhood of XY-Chromosome- Possessing Five- O’Clock- Shadow- Growing Manly Men He-Men Boys Club of Dudes”
🙂
Eagle wrote:
It was informal. The pastor asked if we had any questions (there has been some info over the past year or two, and a sermon series on eldership).
The move at this point is solely about changing to an elder format, perhaps three elders, pastor included. Change in by-laws to accommodate. Keep the diaconate, which would continue to include women; but eliminate the church council, which is made up of department heads including women. The elder board would include NO women because women were not elders in the New Testament (some, however, were deacons, as Phoebe in Romans 16).
So, doing the math: one board added, no girls allowed; one board subtracted, that presently allows girls…
Stated reasons for elder board supplanting the diaconate and church council:
1. It’s more biblical.
2. It would make discipline more efficient.
One woman in particular is as upset as I am, and she asked some tough questions, including “Would this make the church more Calvinist?” and while that is not really mentioned as a goal, the Sunday school class had in fact been treated to a video series on Calvinism this spring. This woman was as concerned by that video as I was.
I kept my mouth shut for as long as possible (she handled her part quite ably) but when it was time I voiced my concern (“to the point of alarm,” I reminded the pastor, referring to an earlier conversation with him) that indeed, Calvinism, or rather “New Calvinism” seemed to be a phenomenon affecting many Baptist churches, as well as a move toward Complementarianism—and indeed, one of the current deacons just finished a Sunday school series on Comp, called “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood,” based on a book by Piper and Grudem. So, although Calvinism and Comp are not stated as goals in this plan, they cannot be ignored.
The discussion became an exchange between myself and the pastor from there, and we are great friends, but I let him know that if it’s biblical we’re talking about there are holes in the interpretation that women may be deacons but not elders (1 Timothy 3, elders must be husband of one wife, which obviously means male, but I pointed out that the same requirement is expected of deacons, and if they must be the husband of one wife, what about Phoebe? It’s agreed at our church that women may remain in the diaconate, although its role would be subordinate to the elder board). He had an answer for that that I didn’t really connect with and don’t even remember, and he said that wherever deacons are mentioned in the bible there also elders.
Fine. But my argument revolves more around Galatians (all of Galatians, but specifically chapters 1 and 2 where Paul rebukes Peter and others for insisting that believers must practice circumcision and dietary law). I maintain that neither elder government, nor episcopal gov’t, nor congregational gov’t is best, that any will do nicely (and our cong gov’t has performed well for 100+ years). The problem comes when anyone insists that we must do it this way or that because it’s “more biblical.” Do we start serving wine at communion? Welch’s grape juice was not served by Jesus or the apostles.
The pastor insists that eldership is needed, that it will facilitate discipline (we can’t apply discipline as deacons?) and the example that keeps coming up is “if a man should leave his wife for another woman.” I’ve reminded him more than once that when a man leaves his wife (or a woman her husband) they always leave the church too, and don’t ask permission.
Discipline does seem to be a growing concern for our pastor. But I’m afraid that an insistence on what’s “biblical” may be misguided, even idolatrous. Peter was led astray, even Barnabas, by those who insisted upon one way to practice. Merely because this is the way they did it back then (and I think they did it because it was practical, not because it’s commanded by God) doesn’t make a mandate for us. Something else seems to be at work here.
The pastor and one of the deacons (and by the way, I was a deacon until term-limited a couple of years ago) went to Washington DC for a four-day “Weekender” conference at Mark Dever’s Capital Hill Baptist Church. They speak fondly of that weekend.
I’ll shut up now.
This outfit started out under the misnomer “New England Theological Seminary”:
Poking around their old address netsem.org at Internet Archive yields gems like:
https://web.archive.org/web/20051224133651/http://www.netsem.org/CC/article/0,,PTID325326%7CCHID699414%7CCIID1878534,00.html
“The Personal and Family Track concerns itself with the secret life of each believer and the strength of each marriage. It takes at least one year to penetrate the veneer of a couple’s life.”
Jerome wrote:
This is sick voyeurism.
Ken P. wrote:
Very true. They can’t stand one another.
Ted wrote:
I know I’m overstepping my bounds here, but I’m gonna let ‘er fly anyway ……. Does the church body still have the authority to fire this pastor??? If so, the church might be better off with a layman serving as interim pastor until you can find a new pastor.
Jerome wrote:
Really!!! So, who is assigned the grueling task of "penetrating the veneer" of the head life of the honcho and his wife?
Nancy2 wrote:
Here’s a little more on that issue:
Granted, Mainiacs are not famous for friendliness and hospitality, but many (not all) from Mass. act like they own the state of Maine ~~ rude, territorial, and uppity. I have encountered a few of them. ( A couple of them believe that Walmart in Mexico, ME is there for the sole purpose of serving “Mass Holes” and everyone else is in their way!)
I have a friend who is originally from Mass. who now lives in Dirty Lew. He is friendly and respectful, but it took ten years for the locals to accept him. He now calls others from his “home” state “Mass Holes”.
@ Max:
MAX wrote “At the same time SBC’s International Mission Board (IMB) is recalling 600-800 foreign missionaries, its home mission agency – the North American Mission Board – is enjoying a 60 million dollar budget to plant new churches! ”
what would be the logical reasons? my thinking goes in two very different, slightly illogical directions:
1. a push to get the neo-Cal thinking firmly placed within the SBC
2. a desire to convert those ‘at home’ who can then be persuaded to vote Republican, whereas the overseas converts are of no use politically to the far right
neither ‘reason’ is logical, so they both probably have some truth in them, as I am considering the source of all the disruptive change that is re-aligning resources within an extremely conservative denomination
@ Anonymous:
I’d be inclined to say something along the lines of “churches started by immigrants from [name of country],” myself, or “thd Burmese/Korean/Etiopian (whatever),” church, but then, i used to teach/tutor ESL in the D.C. area, which has vety large gtoupsmof recent immigrsnts, many of thrm regugees. “Ethnic” is sometimes used a code for non-white, and in some cases, it’s an outtight slur.
I figured that wasn’t your intention, which is why i asked… so i could get some clarification. Text-only can be a pretty fifficult medium at times! 🙂
@ numo:
Particularly when you’re a Bad Typer, like me.
@ Anonymous:
Umm, i think it’s more that many of the Kurds would like to form their own independent state. The national borders in most of the world are pretty arbitrary, as in the case of the Kurdish minorities in a number of Arab countties plus Turkey.
@ Ted:
Your last sentence was very telling. All through reading of this comment, I was nodding my head and pinpointing the 9Marks books I’ve seen. Titles from memory: Biblical Leadership. Church Membership. Church Discipline.
I’m afraid they’ve been assimilated.
Jerome wrote:
This is just creepy and wrong on so many levels.
Christiane wrote:
Russell Moore is very much into politics, and he is the “mouth” of the SBC.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Of course, all of these publications you cite were written by white people, likely middle-class at that. The word “ethnic” ends up being = Someone Who is Not Like Us, for most of the people eho read such matetials and use that terminology.
Understand that immigrants also have code words and not-always-complimentary terms for us, too. And our churches, and all of our institutions, really. It goes both ways.
I kinda wish that the prople who write these kinds of books would avtually go snd live in a non-white, recent immigrants from wherever enclave, to actually get a little bit of a sense of how their neighbors live, how they socislise, learn some new (to the Americans) customs, and so on. (I’ve made my own mistakes in this regard, and honestly, my comment shows up how much i really *don’t* know and need to learn.)
Fwiw, in England, “ethnic” = code word for Indian and Pakistani. And not always in a well-meaning way.
@ brad/futuristguy:
We have a couple of Russian Baptist churches here in the boonies. Though my hunch is thst most of the folks who attend thrm are Ukrainian.
50+ years ago, this kind of national divide was clearest in the RCC – there were Italian parish churches, Irish ones, and on and on… Now, it’s mostly folks from Latin American counties in much of thd Eadt, and, certainly, further west.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yes, which is one readon that i added thd winky face at the rnd of yhat sentence…
@ roebuck:
Well, it’s pretty obvious that said clowns weren’t paying attention during their US history classes. The Portuguese and Cape Verdean immigrants are going to be a surprise to them, too.
@ roebuck:
Full disclosue: i worked at Mystic Seaport for a summer when i was in undergrad, and there were exactly zero Portuguese or black employees. There’s a huge Portuguese fishing fleet just a couple of miles away, but it took far too long for the Seaport to so much as acknowledge them, and many other folks, in their NE fisheries exhibit texts and displays. But it was founded and run by wealthy WASPS, so…
@ roebuck:
It is. Vety, very creepy and stalket-ish.
numo wrote:
I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find that many SBC materials that reference “ethnic churches” were written by middle-class Caucasian men. But I also have African-American and Hispanic church planting friends who use this term when they talk and write about the churches they planted and pastor, conferences they attend, etc.
Which is why I talked about it being a “label.” And when I use that term, I almost automatically of the quote from Dana Carvey, “To label me is to ignore me.”
Language on all this stuff is a bear that needs to be dealt with.
Would be intriguing to compare terminologies used by American Baptists (who used to be Northern Baptists), Southern Baptists, and National Baptists (predominantly African-American). Also compare racial diversity among memberships.
Also wondering what could happen if NAMB absorbed IMB … would a more respectful terminology emerge?
@ Mae:
Hester or Dee said: “Great comment. Their definition of the gospel™ is believing in secondary doctrine their way. The patriarch stuff will not sell in Boston.”
Mae said: “Quite right, it will not sell. For which we will be branded as….rebellious, unrepentant, reprobate.”
+++++++++++++++++
to which you roll your eyes, say ‘whatever’, and consider the silly accusation a scarlet letter R of honor.
dee wrote:
Having recently visited the Boston area, I am pretty sure you’re right. They might make headway in western Massachusetts, further out, but it’s hard to say.
@ Dave A A:
“I’m reminded of the former Evergreen Christian Fellowship, a cautionary tale of ever there was one for churches which want to “live again” (revitalization) via the Acts 29 method.
http://sammamishreview.com/tag/evergreen-christian-fellowship
Just over 3 years from revitalization to — SOLD!”
++++++++++++++++
this makes me sick. From the same article, re: the previous Evergreen church and their facility:
“Although many families did step up their sacrificial giving in a big way, it was just not enough.”
From Christianity Today:
“Afraid their church would close, Evergreen leaders approached Mars Hill about joining as a satellite campus. Although it would mean the end of Evergreen as an independent church—all of its assets would transfer to Mars Hill—the merger would allow the church to live on.”
“This May, the City of Sammamish bought Evergreen’s shuttered building from Mars Hill for $6.1 million. The proceeds from the sale will likely go to pay off Mars Hill’s debt.”
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/june/wiser-multisite-church-movement-after-mars-hill.html
So, Evergreen church members gave sacrificially to save their church and its facility. Building, all assets were then given to Mars Hill.
Now Mars Hill is selling it to pay off its own debt…. professional Christian scumbags.
off topic comment, I know, but there’s satisfaction in making it.
Ted wrote:
After #2 my thought would now be where is the nearest exit?
Apologies in advance for the length of this comment.
The “Plant New England” conference that you linked to had as speakers Mark Dever, Mark Prater (the make-believe leader of SGM as it is obvious Mahaney still calls the shots), and Owen Strachan – the boy genius and son-in-law of SBTS professor Bruce Ware. This information alone should be enough to set off cautionary bells and whistles.
Wes Pastor, in his Masters Thesis on church leadership (http://www.thenetscenter.org/files/pastor_wes/PastorWesMastersThesis.pdf) is quite an informative read. I am no scholar, but I am somewhat amazed that this Thesis passed muster and even more amazed that NETS would proudly publicize it. Pastor’s arguments are entirely one-sided. He does not engage with his opponents viewpoints at all, instead he states his views and then suppresses all discussion by saying his viewpoint is “unambiguous” or “this teaching is corroborated by the rest of the NT as well” or “There is little doubt that the PE taught.”
Pastor has several references to Grudem’s books and it appears he holds to the (dare I say) “heretical” view of the eternal subordination of the Son.
“There is little doubt that the PE (Pastoral Epistles) taught a functional hierarchy in which only men were permitted to be leaders in the Pauline churches. This hierarchy is corroborated by the two well-known NT passages, 1 Cor 11:3-16 and 14:34-35.143 There are many unanswered questions about the issues in 1 Cor 11, including the nature of the original problem. But Paul’s response is unambiguous, teaching a functional hierarchy grounded in timeless realities like the Trinity and the purpose of human creation:”
He believes if you hold to the egalitarian view of men and women you are a heretic:
“The PE (Pastoral Epistles) were occasioned by false teachers rejecting sound doctrine, that is, the gospel morality which necessarily flows from the gospel of grace, by speaking and acting perversely. These teachers had embraced several underlying gospel heresies including Judaism, exclusivism, spiritualism, asceticism, and egalitarianism.”
“The gender of Pauline church leaders would be beyond question were it not for the modern egalitarian movement, which has questioned all passages on women’s roles, particularly 1 Tim 2:9-15, which Stott claims “are probably the most controversial verses . . . in the Pastoral Letters.” However, once we step away from the modern controversy, there can be little doubt that Paul responded to the egalitarian controversy of his day by clearly and forcefully asserting in the PE that all first century local churches were to be led only by men. And this teaching is corroborated by the rest of the NT as well.”
“Third, the PELP (Pastoral Epistles Leadership Profile) puts forth only men as church leaders, which is the timeless teaching of God’s word. While admittedly out of style in our egalitarian culture, the biblical basis for male-only church leadership is clearly cross-cultural. It is rooted in the unchangeable order of creation and the indisputable details of the fall. Therefore, the PELP, which is truly biblical, is most relevant to modern church leadership.”
Pastor also seems to be overly concerned on ensuring he and his fellow church planters are well remunerated for their work:
“a. Compensation of Leaders (1 Tim 5:17-18)
Paul’s dealings with the more practical matters of ministry are marked by balance and shrewdness, starting with the matter of compensation. Though elders must not be lovers of money (1 Tim 3:3; 6:10, 17-19), nevertheless, they are to be well-compensated, since “‘[t]he laborer is worthy of his wages’” (1 Tim 5:18).
The text says that elders are “worthy of double honor” (1 Tim 5:17). Double honor means, at least, financial compensation. Honor is used in a financial sense in reference to “widows indeed” (1 Tim 5:3, 9). In addition, the Scriptural basis for the double-honor directive (1 Tim 5:18) references two passages which clearly address financial remuneration, one from the Torah and one from the words of Jesus.”
“So each of the Pauline churches needed a plurality of shepherds called elders, who were carefully selected and thoughtfully compensated, had real authority to manage the church, were exhorting and refuting, yet were not above legitimate accusation and possible removal.”
Pastor’s views are basically what 9Marks and the Gospel Coalition (basically the Neo-Calvinist viewpoint) hold to. In his Thesis he labels these views as “PELP,” Pastoral Epistles Leadership Profile. Pastor is intent on spreading his doctrine (the Gospel???), which he believes to be the biblically correct doctrine, throughout the world. His plan to do so is outlined in the following quote:
“But how can the PELP be implemented in our day?”
“Thus, the PELP is entirely relevant to our day and, with enough patience and persistence, could start to be implemented through broad educational initiatives, church renewal activities and, perhaps most effectively, planting new churches.”
“Our study has suggested three ways to implement the PELP: teaching, church renewal, and church planting.
So where do we go from here? Perhaps it is time to engage, to get busy, to start and keep helping the West (and the East) adhere to the biblical model of leadership, no matter the hardship (and no doubt, there will be hardship). But in so doing, we will be following our cross-bearing Prince and Champion and Leader, “who for the joy set before Him endured the cross” (Heb 12:2). “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him” (2 Tim 2:12).”
dee wrote:
Rumor has it that things are not going that well in Dubai either.
Several years ago the Sheikh of Ras Al Khaimah agreed to allow an evangelical church to be built on the grounds of an area where there was already a Roman Catholic church and an Anglican church. UCCD, pastored by John Folmar was a bit deceptive in their publicity campaign to raise money for this effort. They made it sound like this was the first church allowed to be built in RAK, then when challenged on this declaration they changed their tune and said it was the first “evangelical church.”
Folmar hand-picked Josh Manley, an SBTS graduate who at the time worked on Al Mohler’s staff, to come to the UAE and be the pastor of the new church plant (so much for UCCD’s congregational polity). There were plans to make this new church into a hub for spreading the 9Marks gospel throughout the Middle East. They had hopes of making a training/conference center at the new church but due to lack of growth and funding this has never materialized. Perhaps this is going to be the focus of the “Vision conference” mentioned in your article – they may hope to jump start this with renewed publicity and then donations from the USA.
I have heard several of the families that initially left UCCD for the church plant in RAK have left the RAK church. I have also heard that the Manley’s are discouraged and I wonder if they will continue in their ministry there.
RAK is a small town about an hours drive north of Dubai. It is very conservative and very Muslim. Not many westerners live there. Church growth is proving to be a much more difficult task than in Dubai.
As an aside, UCCD and Redeemer Church of Dubai love to foster the impression that their churches are doing great things amongst the Muslim population. I do not believe this to be true. They mostly cater to the expat population living here. Anyone who has lived in the Middle East knows it is very, very rare for a Muslim to attend a Christian church. I have seen a few at weddings, but that is it. If there is any evangelism occurring it is done slowly through developing true friendships. My wife has been friends with an Iranian woman for 5 years. They discuss religion but it is not forced and is only possible because these two are true friends. I contend that this type of “evangelism” is the only type possible in Muslim countries and, contrary to what John Folmar would tell you, it would occur with or without a Christian church in the city.
http://uccdubai.com/rakchurchplant
William wrote:
Exactly right William. Did you read the article “Spare the Rod Spoil the Church” that Deb linked to? The whole article compares disciplining his children to disciplining his church members.
I believe it accurately depicts how these “leaders” view church members in all things, not only disciplinary matters. They see us as children who are unable to grasp anything other than basic truths of Christianity, and even in those matters it is best if we can look at a tract like “The 4 Spiritual Laws” or better yet “Two Ways to Live.”
lydia wrote:
It’s common these days to call anything published on the internet “content” whether it’s words, photos, or video. I bet Jared C. Wilson runs the Twitter/Facebook/Vimeo accounts for Midwestern Seminary. Or is the boss of whoever runs them.
Nancy2 wrote:
Ted stated that he is friends with the Pastor. My experience is Ted is being tolerated at the present time out of necessity. Once the 9Marx transition is fully implemented Ted will be encouraged to find a new church. Some subtle and some not so subtle methods will be used.
Here are a few articles written by my former pastor at UCCD on how to bring about the desired change in your church. I would guess Ted can see these methods currently in use by his pastor.
http://9marks.org/article/journalimplementing-membership-existing-church/
http://9marks.org/article/journalwhat-makes-church-reform-possible/
@ Nancy2:
Massachusetts migration to Southern NH has produced similar results and acrimony.
Nancy2 wrote:
But he is not conservative as people think. He is most definitely into big government and taking away individual choice. It is all about popularity and controlling people. He focuses on low hanging fruit issues. He leans more nanny state. And that fits the Neo Cal position of controlling people.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
So, according to Wes Pastor, the foundation of true Christianity revolves around:
1.) instructions in the Pauline letters (twisted and misinterpreted!!!)
2.) forcing women into permanent subservience
3.) blind obedience to church leaders
4.) givng until it literally hurts
5.) handsomely rewarding church leaders for lording over the congregation
Church = feudal serfdom under monarchical rule???
lydia wrote:
Some say that Russ Moore is a socialist. IMHO, he is a communist.
As Christians, “We are Borg!”
numo wrote:
Numo, was John Gardner there? I have a couple of his boatbuilding books, and his “Dory Book” changed my life (or at least the way I look at small boats).
Christiane wrote:
Christiane, I believe that this is the primary driver at NAMB and IMB these days. Both SBC entities are led by New Calvinist leaders. IMB's David Platt is icon-status in the New Calvinist movement. NAMB's Kevin Ezell was formerly Al Mohler's pastor (think about it). NAMB has launched an aggressive church planting effort, which includes 1,000 new church plants in 2015 – these are largely being staffed by young, restless and reformed pastors (most are fresh out of seminaries such as Al Mohler's Southern Seminary where they have been indoctrinated in Calvinist belief and practice). IMB is bringing home hundreds of veteran non-Calvinist missionaries from foreign fields, while at the same time promising to replace them with "new" missionaries in the coming years. What theological leaning do you think they would have? Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with a push to plant more churches anywhere on the planet … but, in the current theo-political climate within SBC, this appears to be more about planting theology (which is contrary to SBC's non-Calvinist majority, by the way).
Nancy2 wrote:
Technically, yes, but that’s not going to happen. He’s still a good pastor, and even I would not want to see that. We disagree on certain points, and if we can’t reconcile we either have to live with that, or I’m the one to leave. Todd Wilhem, at 5:20 AM, put his finger on it.
Nancy2 wrote:
“RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!
PREPARE TO BE ASSIMILATED!”
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
After the Coup, the Purge.
And Ted will have Outlived His Usefulness to The Party.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Paging Ezzo and Pearl…
Paging Ezzo and Pearl…
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/wp-content/uploads/rod.jpg
@ Todd Wilhelm:
I think this would make an interesting post. What do you think?
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Exactly right, Todd. Thanks for the articles, and I’ve bookmarked them.
My pastor and one of the deacons do seem to be following a script (we discussed this at TWW a few months ago, and at that time Faith had her finger on the pulse of this movement, almost as if she were reading my mind). In one of John Folmar’s articles, he addresses the need for a long time-line, and so far my church has been going through this for around two years.
Folmar, like Mark Dever, exaggerates the need for expositional preaching. I’m of the opinion that there are no truly expositional sermons, merely topical ones that focus on particular verses, and through the lens of the preacher’s theology. But that is to be expected, and as long as we’re aware of it…
The one thing that I agree with Folmar about is his endorsement in one of the articles of John Stott’s book Basic Christianity. That’s a pleasant surprise.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
LIVE FREE OR DIE!!!!!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes, HUG, I studied Soviet history. And we’re both huge fans of 1984. I see the parallels and I don’t always hate it when you’re right.
@ Ted:
Not then, no. I worked in the small boat shop (answering visitors’ questions) some of the time, but it was an annex. The “real” small boat shop wasn’t open to thd public.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
FYI: I suffered a near-fatal head injury in 1982, and I’ve had a mild stroke. That being said, random TULIP thought here: What if the Apostle Paul is NOT one of the predestined elect???
@ Ted:
Here’s the thing: the bostbuilders made the most lovely wooden boats… that none of them vould afford. They were sold to very wealthy people. Every year they recreated a different type of small boat. It seems a shame thst all of them ended up in places far from the museum, where nobody but the owners could admire the hard work and master craftsmanship that went inyo them.
Ted wrote:
Ted, in all candor, here’s my hip shot opinion: that is yet to be proven and about to be tested.
Ted wrote:
If that’s the way it is, then ipso facto, he is not a “good pastor”, because a good pastor would realize that the forcing out of another over a secondary difference was not only outside of the scope of his authority (can anyone tell me from the Bible what authority, if any, a pastor has? Is that defined? I’ll answer it for you: No, it’s not, simply not there, a pastor is a lowly servant, not a singular CEO).
Law Prof wrote:
Ted has yet to Outlive his Usefulness.
Ted
I can empathize with your situation.
I had a disagreement with a good friend, my pastor. Ouch!!! Help!!! Oy Vey!!! 🙁
The Benifit??? I had NO place else to Go – but to Go To Jesus…
And jesus is the Best
Sounds like you’re now involved in a riveting, stimulating, adventure. 😉
I hope I’m wrong, but it looks like…
Your Faith, “more precious than Gold,” is about to be tried with fire…
I pray that your Faith Fail NOT…
1 Pet 1:7
That the trial of your faith,
being much more precious than of gold that perisheth,
though it be **tried with fire,**
might be found unto praise and honour and glory
at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Rev 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire…
———-
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Ted
You write…
“He’s still a good pastor…”
Well, today, I have a little different take on someone being “a good pastor.”
Since leaving “The Corrupt Religious System” of today.
One question for me became…
Can anyone find “today’s pastors,” and what they get paid to do, in the Bible?
Makes an interesting research project. 🙂
Haven’t you ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
NOT one of His Disciples ever called them self pastor? or shepherd? or leader? or reverend?
NOT one of His Disciples ever called another Disciple, shepherd/leader/reverend?
———-
Jeremiah 22:22 KJV
The *wind shall eat up all “Thy Pastors,”
(*wind = ruwach = breath, mind, spirit.)
and thy lovers shall go into captivity:
surely then shalt thou be ashamed
and confounded for all thy wickedness.
Jeremiah 23:1 KJV
Woe be unto ”The Pastors” that destroy
and scatter the sheep of my pasture!
Jeremiah 23:2 KJV
…thus saith the LORD God of Israel
against ”The Pastors” that feed my people;
Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away,
and have not visited them: behold,
**I will visit upon you the evil of your doings,**
saith the LORD.
———-
When you believe the lie you start to die…
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Thank you, Todd, for this link. While I have only worked my way through the Abstract, I cannot help but notice that he quickly adds the word “apostolic” to leadership, without defining the term or demonstrating why it should be included, to form “apostolic leadership”. I cannot help but think this is an attempt to elevate the man in said ‘position’ beyond the reach and questioning of the common member.
Secondly, and perhaps more trivially, I am constantly dismayed at the quality of most theological scholarly writing. I have read through, or at least attempted to, several theses and dissertations and am amazed at what passes for academic thought (in this context) these days. I cannot help but believe that most ‘secular’ universities would send these students back to remedial classes in order to improve their thought and ability to communicate intelligence on paper. Of course, at one point I was working on a thesis-based degree at one of the SBC seminaries; the “introduction to academic research” class consisted solely of developing a 70 entry bibliography…something I had done as an undergraduate majoring in English. That should be telling enough.
Burwell Stark wrote:
Clarification: from sectarian religious or denominational schools.
Burwell Stark wrote:
Well, there’s certainly been an outbreak of that in New Calvinist churches in my area! These young reformed 30-something “apostles” and “elder” teams in their 20s-30s quickly squash theological dissent … “it’s my way or the highway” drives their belief and practice (they read that Calvin did that, too … so it’s OK).
Burwell Stark wrote:
I think you’re right. Insular. No rigor. Closed, small, constipated minds.
Max wrote:
Just ask Servetus.
@ Burwell Stark:
There may be another dimension to that also. Back in the 50s I worked with an RN in Louisville whose husband was a student at SBTS while she worked labor and delivery night shift to support them. She also did his greek homework and wrote some sermons for him. At least, so she said. Sermons I can understand but surely there were tests in greek class and he would have to know at least a little something or other.
@ Law Prof:
Law Prof wrote:
At first it is OK to have differences but when the goal is ultimately control for discipline the differences mean choice and that is dangerous for them.
I have Calvinist friends. But their Calvinism does not define them or others. It does not define their relationships. They view 9 Marx discipline as a horror. They are not seeking control of others, either.
It sounds like the pastor is going to allow his power to discipline to define his relationship with the other priests in the priesthood of believer. Sad.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, I have heard reformed folks defend Calvin for his role in the persecution and death of Servetus … pointing to the culture of the day regarding dissenters, religious climate during the Reformation, and other such mumbo-jumbo. Christians murdering their opposition never seemed culturally-relevant to me, regardless of the church age (that includes the Inquisition, Crusades, and Death-by-Theology of the SBC).
elastigirl wrote:
Sordid– to borrow the KJV from Peter and Paul’s “PE’s”.
But NOT off topic in the least.
From the local article, “members of a Sammamish church are finding new life as a branch of the mega-church Mars Hill” The kind Sammamish folks could have just sold their building and found a smaller meeting place and had “new life” that way. Or scattered like the early disciples, and brought “new life” with them.
New life = Revitalization
The NETS have changed their name precisely to add “revitalization” to “planting”.
Because, as “revitalization” inventor Stetzer has discovered, planting is hard and often fails.
And pastor Pastor includes “replanting” in the official NETS mission statement. And “replanting” comes directly from Acts29, which comes from Mars.
Burwell Stark wrote:
I’m reminded of the preacher discussing the apostolic comission (the great commission) he argued that it was reserved for men in leadership and the average guy lacks the authority to carry it out. Since all apostles were men, then women are not to carry out the great commision either. Like the word biblical, apostolic is useful for defining more specifically who can do what.
Dave A A wrote:
Replanting sounds more like transplanting. Same old body, but invasive surgeons remove original organs and insert different ones. If the body rejects the new organs, it dies.
Dave A A wrote:
I suppose the New Calvinist young bulls setting up shop in traditional (non-Calvinist) SBC churches by stealth and deception would justify their actions as “replanting”, rather than “splitting”.
William wrote:
Don’t kid! That’s how we deal with the Borg–we take out their transwarp hub, then they can’t go to all 4 quadrants of the galaxy so quickly.
In other words, yes, plant an egalitarian church next to *every* Gospel Glitteratti church you can find. 😀
‘Sorry to be a bit off topic, but I am a bit bothered by something. And please forgive me if you covered this recently in our discussions over giving money to the church. Anyway, I just noticed that our church is calling Faith Pledges what used to be called Faith Promises. I’ve never believed in the Faith Promise anyway, but a past pastor of ours said that if you can’t pay it, no big deal. So, I just Googled the difference between a promise and a pledge. I am finding that a pledge CAN be legally binding, whereas a promise cannot, Any help here? Thanks
lydia wrote:
It’s sad. Back in my college days nearly three decades ago, still a decade or so before before the present calvinista revolution and SBTS purge, my nondenom college group was led by two people: one who largely identified as a Calvinist and the other as an Anabaptist. Today, I think, that would be a nonstarter. But they got along great and the group flourished because no one was about forcing secondary doctrine down anyone’s throat and no one seemed to be into making secondary issues hills to die upon. We all seemed secure enough in our relationships with Jesus that we didn’t need to enforce rigid doctrinal purity, we were perhaps not quite arrogant enough to assume we had some kind of sacred lock on all truth other than Jesus as Lord and His death for our sins. That was the only hill anyone seemed to care about dying upon.
@ Ken P.:
We use that term here in CT too, but it refers to the (perceived?) recklessness/entitlement of MA drivers…
@ numo:
…and in the case of SE CT, at least, all the Greek people who have the awesome Greek food festivals at their churches. It’s also why a lot of pizza joints here serve moussaka, stuffed grape leaves and baklava along with pizza and stuff. There’s also the big ruckus sometimes when people get into arguments about The Best and Most Correct Kind of Pizza, since Greek, New Haven and NY style pizza all coexist on the CT shoreline. It’s a bit like watching Southerners argue about barbecue.
We have Portuguese people here too. There is a Portuguese Holy Ghost Society the next town over from me.
Max wrote:
How about “infecting” or “virusing”?
Because a virus infecting a cell takes over the cell’s DNA; changes the cell into multiple clones of the virus, then destroys it.
Jamie Carter wrote:
Didn’t The HUMBLE One (chuckle chuckle) originally title himself “HEAD APOSTLE”?
Nancy2 wrote:
Sounds like a d*** cult to me….
K.D. wrote:
“Cults are normally started so the Cult Leader can (1) GET RICH, (2) Get Laid, or (3) both. But the Moonies went after Political POWER from Day One.”
— my old D&D DM, decompressing with Recreational Thinking after an all-nighter
@ Hester:
Or the One Correct Chili recipe…
The gunny thing about the pizza wars is thst pizza made in the US is *nothing* like yhe pizzas made in Italy/by places that use true Itslian methods (there are many, throughout Europe, and a few here in thd US). Givrn the choice, i would tske an Italian,pizza – regardless of whst is used to top it – over any pizzas made per US methods. It’s a lighter dish, refreshing and not greasy or heavy.
Patti wrote:
I don’t know about a promise-sorry-but I have been given to believe that a pledge is/can be binding. Our church is just winding up stewardship emphasis month (to use baptist words for it) and they want us to turn in pledge cards tomorrow. Some of the folks who have been there a while clued us in as to how to do that. Figure out how much you can and will give and turn in a pledge for a lot less than that. Then give over and above the pledge whatever you had decided in the first place. Gets them off your case and makes you look responsible and enthusiastic. IMO it takes a firm hand to get other people’s hand out of your wallet.
@ Law Prof:
I hear you. Back in my high school days, there was this ecumenical city wide thing for teens on Sunday Nights after regular church. Churches from all over the city were involved and took turns hosting the event. It was nothing but singing really bad hippie Jesus songs while guys and gals with bad hair and patched jeans would play guitar, bongo drums and such. The only talking consisted of short testimonies from teens in the audience who wanted to say something. Sometimes no one talked except to have the teens shout out their churches. Everyone was involved from the frozen chosen Presbyterians to Charismatics, Baptists, Methodists and even the more tolerant Catholics. No one cared. It was fun.
I sometimes think we were the cause of really bad music in that next generation in church. :o)
Hester wrote:
Kentucky:
BURGOO!!! BURGOO!!! BURGOO!!!
Nancy2 wrote:
Watch it. :o)
@ Nancy2:
And if it dies, the surgeons just move on to the next patient, not discerning the body left behind.
1 comment not approved. Writer was notified.
Hester wrote:
Well, I guess I pegged those drivers after one visit! They’d prefer to run you over in the crosswalk rather than stop so you can cross. My experience anyway.
@ Max:
“Splitting” is if people leave after questioning the takeover.
Amusing NETS pamphlet (pdf), mostly about a trip to clean up a spat involving their guy in Cameroon:
http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/CCom_Ministries/media/cmc/pdf/cmc_20500101_8f29a7c2-7d9c-4463-9990-762536e7585a.pdf
Also this:
“That naturally leads to the question, “How?” How do you start churches and set up NETS satellites in foreign countries without offending or being exploited by the locals?
1. Work only in areas where some infrastructure already exists, including a stable denomination and ongoing seminary. NETS is not equipped to start from scratch in a cross-cultural setting.
2. Make contact with key denominational and seminary leaders and share the vision. Make it clear that we’re coming in as humble partners, seeking to further their organizational objectives.
3. Find candidates about whom both denomination and seminary alike are excited, and who seem to hold promise as “franchise” players for new NETS franchises.”
@ Jerome:
Seriously? The “sin” was that the pastor took a ministry position in the US and didn’t ask permission first? I thought taking ministry positions without letting anyone know was the standard practice of most ministers, YRR or not.
“Big important white men come in from US, set ignorant natives straight” should have been the title to this brochure.
@ Bridget:
Yep. In Boston, they just love to run red lights, too.
I saw or read something once where several big US cities were evaluated on pace of life or laid backness (can’t remember). how fast its citizens drove, walked, talked, etc. Boston came in first, leaving NYC in the dust.
elastigirl wrote:
And everyone always says Cali drivers are the worst . . . I think Cali just has some of the worst traffic.
Jerome wrote:
There ya go! An invasive surgical transplants!
Bridget wrote:
No, Las Vegas has THE worst traffic.
I grew up driving Los Angeles traffic, but after the last time I had to drive Vegas traffic, I’m never getting anywhere near Vegas again.
Dave A A wrote:
What??? No cremation?
@ elastigirl:
Speaking from my experience, NO ONE walks faster than Manhattanites – seriously, I don’t know how they do it, it’s like superhuman/preternatural – so Boston must have come in first for some other reason.
@ Bridget:
Two words: New Jersey. And NY state, where everyone leaves their high beams on ALL.the.time.
NJ “traffic circles” are, um… intersting is one way of putting it. (Major ginormous understatemeng.)
@ Hester:
Not everyone does thst, though New Yorkers talk fadter than just about anyone.
D.C. people sre, generally speaking, Fast Walkers. They even walk/run up and down *working* Metro station escalators *during rush hour.*
@ Bridget:
I was in Dallas once on a business trip, and driving on the freeway was the most frustrating thing. Aside from the fact that every freeway looks exactly the same (no hills, no mountains, & the same franchise cluster every 3 minutes), when I needed to change lanes, no one would let me in!
@ Hester:
“NO ONE walks faster than Manhattanites – seriously, I don’t know how they do it, it’s like superhuman/preternatural – so Boston must have come in first for some other reason.”
++++++++++++++++
it’s funny, how people adjust and adapt to the way things are where they live. I visited a friend who lives in another city 6 hours away. she’s totally laid back. but behind the wheel in her van, all of a sudden she’s manic, in a nervous hurry, driving as fast as possible at all times. just to go get cereal. I noticed everyone was driving like that in her town.
I’d like to think i’m above all that — but i’m sure I succumb as well.
Brian wrote:
I’m still part of Churches of Christ, but the CofC I now attend is one that is considered “progressive”.
Dave A A wrote:
I’m too familiar with this story, Dave. 🙁
numo wrote:
Is it terrible that I find myslef musing about the residents of New England believing that New Englanders are predestined to throw NRRs into the (exceptionally handy) Atlantic Ocean????
While everyone here is speculating about a stealth Calvinista takeover of New England, the really interesting phenomenon is being overlooked: the rise of NAR and NAR- wannabes in this region. Just start with one website, let’s say The Connecticut House of Prayer, and then in the words of David Horowitz (yes, I’m mixing domains here), “discover the network.” Absolutely fascinating….
@ Asahel Nettleton:
Are you talking about the New Apostolic Reformation? I'm having trouble finding anything about the Connecticut House of Prayer and David Horowitz. Are there any links you could share? I'd love to look into these topics.
We did write about the New Apostolic Reformation last year.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/21/what-is-the-new-apostolic-reformation-nar/
@ Deb:
Yes, I’m talking about New Apostolic Reformation.
Here’s the link to CTHOP
https://hartford prayer.com/
The David Horowitz reference was kinda obscure; sorry if it was confusing. Horowitz is a former Sixties radical who has become a neoconservative. One of his projects is “Discover the Networks”– showing how different left-wing political and cultural movements interconnect. The concept and process (i.e., identifying interconnections between groups) is what interests me, more so than the particular political agenda behind it.
Getting back to CTHOP website: Check out their Links at the bottom. You’ll quickly see there are *lots* of NE churches who are getting into the orbit of this movement. Many more so than are caught up with 9Marks etc
Also, check out Holly Pivec’s website http://spiritoferror.org/ She’s no crackpot. The book she co-wrote is pretty solid.
Corrected link: https://hartfordprayer.org (my “smart” typing software decided it needed a space in there– sheesh)
@ Asahel Nettleton:
It’s dot.com; at leadt, Google says so.
And yes, they are an NAR group, based on the pattetn established by the Interantional House of Prayer in KC MO, which is a cult. Mike Bickle is the head honco there. I really cannot nd will not refer to them as a “church”; they are WAY out there. I’ve had a lot of convos with a survivor (from the Mothership) on another site. I’d recommend doing some background research on the NAR, and on IHOP itself.
@ numo:
My apologies for typos!
Is the SBC now officially a neo Calvinist denomination with uber arrogance?
Max wrote:
For the Revolution, Comrade.
@numo – two things: 1) SE CT has never been accused of being a racially integrated place, although it has gotten better, possibly due to the casinos. 2) People in DC do not play especially when they are headed home from work. If you ride the metro, stand on the right side of the escalators and out of my way. I want to get off the metro as soon as I can!
@ Former CLC’er:
1. Yes, but some white people there are “whiter” thsn others
2. Agreed o getting off the Metro! 😉