I read about this the other day on yahoo news. When people think they speak and or act for God it just proves to me how fallen mankind really is and our need for a Savior screams out.
So sad all of the crimes committed in the so called name of Christ.

Yup…..some of us are up late!!

If those mug shots are what they seem, the dead boy’s father has the Michael Pearl Patriarch Beard.

Don’t know if it’s a cult or sectarian in nature.The parents look creepy, like washed out hippies.
That those young men didn’t run/escape from that home/church, tells me they were totally controlled, brainwashed by their parents to submit to their authority.
What a sad day when parents beat to death their children in the name of the Lord.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

If those mug shots are what they seem, the dead boy’s father has the Michael Pearl Patriarch Beard.

I saw the pictures of the parents (& others who took part in the beatings), & yes, he has the Pearl beard.

I participate on a very political board (which started its life to follow the “birthers” and now has switched over to following the antics of “sovereign citizens” and other likeminded folk). We don’t talk religion there very often, but someone set up a topic for this very incident, it was that appalling. Its title? “Christian Extremists”.

Is this not merely a perverted context within the discipline movement? Sure, Dever &c. would never beat someone to death; but the emotional, psychological, and spiritual damage done to some people could take years from which to recover.

The discipline movement is not merely manipulative, spiritually and emotionally — resembling more a cult than a church — but it also betrays freedom of conscience as well as the priesthood of the saint, the latter of which many in the movement *claim* to advocate but betray the same with their actions. This story made my stomach ill. That happens a lot when I hear or read stories of abuse in these sick churches.

William wrote:

The discipline movement is not merely manipulative, spiritually and emotionally — resembling more a cult than a church — but it also betrays freedom of conscience as well as the priesthood of the saint

Amen! If a “ministry” diminishes truths regarding the priesthood of the believer and individual soul competency, it does not have God in the house. If you allow a leader’s weakness to control your strength, they own you! Control, manipulation, and intimidation are not spiritual gifts. Excommunication, shunning, and beatings are lifted right out of the pages of the Dark Ages. The enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy … even in 21st century church.

@ Deb:
You all stayed up even later than I did! (and we’re both in EDT, if I recall correctly)

This is horrific. My thoughts are along the line of what William said just above my post here. We can’t look at this (or any deaths related to the Pearl’s or Ezzo’s teaching) as standing in complete isolation. It merely falls on the tail of the fundamentalist-style extremism side of the bell curve.

What I’m left wondering – though I lack the stomach to check if this has already been answered – is whether this tragedy came from a Pearl-style “spare the rod” posture, or a Charismatic “cast out the demon” posture of belief. It doesn’t change the evil that happened, but I can’t deny a certain curiosity about what exactly motivated these people (whom I won’t dignify by calling “parents”) to set aside their protective instincts and commit this atrocity.

It gets worse. From today’s New York Times:

NEW HARTFORD, N.Y. — On Sunday night, toward the end of a daylong church service, Tiffanie Irwin, the pastor at Word of Life Christian Church here, turned to her congregation and made a stunning accusation.

Someone among them, she said, was practicing witchcraft.

Lucas Leonard, a 19-year-old whose family was immersed in Word of Life’s secretive practices, said that he was the one, that he wanted church elders to die and that he had considered making a voodoo doll of a church leader.

Those revelations were some of what one member of the church, Daniel Irwin, told investigators after Mr. Leonard was beaten to death by a group of fellow congregants — including Mr. Leonard’s parents and half sister — during a so-called counseling session that began on Sunday night and stretched into Monday morning.

The account of Mr. Irwin, 24, a Word of Life deacon whose family leads the church, provided the latest possible explanation of what had precipitated the attack. Mr. Leonard’s younger brother, Christopher, 17, was also beaten for hours but survived. He remained hospitalized on Friday and was cooperating with the authorities.

Let me suggest that the word of Daniel Irwin, a member of the ruling church family [Tiffani Irwin’s younger brother, maybe?] and a deacon, might be unreliable.

And then there’s this:

The police reiterated on Friday that the beatings had grown out of concerns that Lucas Leonard wanted to defect from the group. They have also rejected assertions that he had been punished for molesting children who also belonged to Word of Life, a reclusive sect whose former members have called it emotionally manipulative and cultlike and whose unusual activities in a former schoolhouse had long puzzled residents in this central New York town

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/nyregion/word-of-life-fatal-beating-new-hartford-police-lucas-leonard.html?_r=0

This whole thing is a cesspool. It’s terrible it took a death for this to come to light, but, unfortunately, that’s the way it is here in the USA, since we have a hands-off approach to religious practices due to the First Amendment. Not sure there’s any other way we could go about it without dumping that essential freedom, which I’m not willing to give up.

This is my opinion only but many of the barbaric practices that fundamentalist cults practice come from none other than the bible itself. This is the danger when churches deny the reality of living in a 21st century liberal democracy (a democracy that the writers of the bible couldn’t even conceptualize). It becomes an all or nothing belief system where in order to be a member you MUST believe in Young Earth Creationism, you MUST believe that women and children are to submit to men who in turn MUST submit to the leaders who in turn (by delusion or charlatanism) convince the sheep they are THE representatives of the Lord. Without placing the bible in the context of its time groups that start with 9Marks or Acts29 thinking become more insular and more controlling leading to more opportunities for abuse. As a group becomes more insular they become more detached from reality and this is the end result. We’ve seen it time and again with the Peoples Temple, Branch Davidians and our buddy Star Scott from a couple of posts ago.

I want to go on such a rant here ……. I don’t even know where to begin! Some reports say that Lucas was beaten because he wanted to leave the church and join the army and Bruce Leonard worked as a teacher’s aid in a public school! I haven’t found or heard any excuse for the beating of Christopher.

How often do they beat people who disagree with them? I hope all the children with this group are permanently removed and placed in safe places.
I wonder how fellow inmates will treat the people who committed this atrocity? If these people are beaten in jail or prison by other inmates will they will understand that it is only a “counseling session”?

mirele wrote:

Someone among them, she said, was practicing witchcraft.

No doubt about it and the whole bunch is suspect from top-down! Their religious practices are contrary to Christianity … a strange lot operating in rebellion to truth and righteousness. “Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft” (1 Samuel 15:23).

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Patriarch Beard

There has been an outbreak of such facial hair in New Calvinist ranks. It’s a mark of devotion to their patron saint Calvin.

Jim Challies wrote:

changed.
http://www.challies.com/articles/thinking-biblically-about-cj-mahaney-and-sovereign-grace-ministries

Condensed translation: “If I cover my ears and hum loudly, the sins of my friends will disappear!”

“Word of Life Christian Church” is similar in naming to “People Republic of North Korea”

@ rdrift179:

Which is a perfect example of the corruptive force of too much power in the hands of a few. Given the opportunity, women have the brains and the ability to be corrupt, too.

mirele wrote:

This whole thing is a cesspool. It’s terrible it took a death for this to come to light, but, unfortunately, that’s the way it is here in the USA, since we have a hands-off approach to religious practices due to the First Amendment. Not sure there’s any other way we could go about it without dumping that essential freedom, which I’m not willing to give up.

People are free to be deceived, not ask enough questions, not demand accountability and allow themselves to be led by charlatans. I am not sure Free speech gives us the right to speak of abuses in public, thankfully. Perhaps the real problem lies in years of convincing people they need experts to lead and think for them whether it is church or government?

Jack wrote:

This is my opinion only but many of the barbaric practices that fundamentalist cults practice come from none other than the bible itself.

Sure, your opinion, my opinion is the problems come from not following the Bible with regard to its pronouncements on what a leader is, what power (or complete lack thereof) the Bible says they have over anyone but themselves, what it means to love one’s enemy, what it means to live like Christ, what it means to be the least and the last, leading by example, never by compulsion, following Christ in His relative poverty, His humility that He had no need whatsoever of having.

Their problem is they don’t give a rip about the Bible, they warp and twist it and when it is silent on a subject which is on their agenda, they completely make it up as they go along. The people who do these things, or assert their dominance over a group of believers to put forth their own agenda are ruthless, conscienceless, cynical, pragmatic, self-interested, hateful people. They are most decidedly not following the Bible.

Jim Challies wrote:

…The farther we are from being close to those involved, the greater the likelihood that we are drawn more to the scandal of it all than any noble purpose….

In a situation as difficult as this one, especially in a situation as difficult as this one, the Lord calls me, he calls each of his people, to pursue peace and love and unity. I take this as a call to consider carefully what information I learn….”

There is one simple fact that trumps all your cautionary words: evil has been done. Here, a boy is dead and another is hospitalized. With CJ&bunch, children were sexually abused, then neglected/judged for having been soul-wounded, and abusers were protected.

No amount of nuanced inside-info can alter evil-deeds-done. In fact, the further one is from the immediate context, the more clearly can this sort of evil be seen. Challies’ post is a prime example of the need for outsider analysis because he fuzzes the SGM situation with defensiveness, platitudes and misused religious doctrine. Then he falls into a mush of “oh dear but not really bad so my friends are still correct”. Now that’s a courageous human (oops, I mean “real man”).

I get a kick out of how people with the religious bent that your comment exhibits become enthusiastic about “peace and love and unity” when it comes to in-church corruption but reject those virtues in almost every other area. Unfortunately, the hypocritical stance makes a mockery of your subtleties of conscience.

Max wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Patriarch Beard
There has been an outbreak of such facial hair in New Calvinist ranks. It’s a mark of devotion to their patron saint Calvin.

All I can say is the first time I saw a photo of Michael Pearl, my initial reaction was “He looks like a cross between Santa Claus and Gandalf.”

Or… the artistic convention of God the Father having a Long White Beard.

Deb wrote:

@ Josh:

I did not know that history. Fascinating…

Kind of like Nick Redfern on Synchronicity in the paranormal, that as you get deeper into investigating the paranormal, the paranormal starts investigating YOU, bringing weirdness after weirdness into your life. Like John Keel in The Mothman Prophecies and Redfern himself in Three Men Seeking Monsters.

I spent some time reading about this outfit in the NY Times. What also puzzles me is that this place was all about church discipline. Church discipline, church discipline and church discipline. Maybe Jonathan Leeman can hold his next church discipline conference there.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Last time we checked, the boy is still DEAD.

But, HUG, to say he’s still dead belittles the work of Christ, who resurrects from the dead! Why, that’s even worse than mistrusting the repentance of a chronic child molester! Christ can do anything! To doubt is to deny!

lol

Nancy2 wrote:

“If I cover my ears and hum loudly, the sins of my friends will disappear!”

"A little leaven leavens the whole lump" (1 Corinthians 5:6-7). The church is called to check and challenge the sort of behavior demonstrated by SGM and its leaders. Challies' article was written to shame Mahaney critics into shutting up. These are days for Christians to be diligent to purge such influences, rather than embrace them … purity of the church is at stake. "Judge not that ye be not judged" is overworked and not applicable when ministries drift off course. New Calvinists will support the who's-who in their ranks, until the potato becomes too hot to handle. They hung with Driscoll until his predictable end (they will gather around him again when he reinvents himself with a predictable unrepentant comeback).

God does not hate people. He loves them with every fiber of Himself. This is horrific. Why couldn’t someone have been there for those young men? To defend them? To protect them! To take the beating for them if need be, so they could get away! Someone here used the term- malignant ministers; that really describes the cancerous growth of evil preachers. Parental abuse and manipulation is evil, and doing it to control ‘for God’ is evil. The church is to be good, pure, peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, etc. Christians in America need to wake up- we have been programed to accept corruption of God’s Word. Saw a good post on a blog recently regarding Calvary Temple in Sterling VA, and it has a utube clip that makes me think of this news story:
https://tacticsofcalvarytemple.wordpress.com/2015/10/12/my-logic-is-undeniable/
For the real christians in New Hartford, I hope you will stand by this young 17 year old, and care/befriend him for as long as he lives. Some wounds never heal on earth. But they still need care.

@ Josh: One or both young men wanted to leave the church. The preachers had a habit of hurling paranoid accusations during sermons. It was alleged that one or both brothers inappropriately touched younger children, but the police chief adamantly denies that. Supposedly the dead boy confessed wanting to use a voodoo doll against church leaders. All very distorted and wrong, and reminiscent of Salem in 1692.

The NY Times article gives details that suggest the father exercised a pattern of ungodly power and control, i.e. domestic abuse, over his wife and children. Quotes that indicate this:

” … the house was ‘filthy,’ said Mr. Constantine, who said he had lived a few doors down from the family for about eight years. ‘It stinks like hell,’ he said.

“He and other neighbors said they would regularly talk to Ms. Leonard, who would sometimes borrow sugar or lend an onion. But the children, even the older ones, did not seem to be allowed to watch television, Mr. Constantine said. Once, he said, his wife had given them a Disney cartoon, but they were not allowed to watch it because ‘Mickey Mouse never married Minnie Mouse.’

“Neighbors described Mr. Leonard as distant and taciturn. Sometimes, Mr. Constantine said, when he or his wife would talk to Ms. Leonard, he would emerge from the house. ‘If she was out here too long, talking to my wife and I, he’d come out and say, “You better come in now,” ‘ he recalled.”

Max wrote:

“Judge that ye be not judged”

That should read “Judge not that ye be not judged.” But, as I point out in my comment, the church needs to be diligent to test the spirits among us and to rightly “judge” that which is amiss – particularly our leaders.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

Too many people see nothing wrong with beating a child. Though in Lucas Leonard’s case it is considered assault, on a younger child it’s just corporal punishment. I agree with Janet Heimlich in calling it “Religious Child Maltreatment.”

If the victim is under 18, the conduct has to be outrageous enough for charges to be brought (i.e., the child has to be dead or pretty close to it), whereas, for an adult, charges can be brought for just hitting someone once (battery), even if the victim isn’t harmed.

I remember nearly thirty years ago being accused by a woman of trying to poach her husband (and Aspie me was totally clueless about the whole thing because I had no idea and simply wasn’t interested in any case because I was very fond of a balding anthropologist). As she ranted, I made a point of sticking my hands behind my back as I edged to the door of their apartment to make my escape. I didn’t even want to be accused of assault and battery.

@ BeenThereDoneThat:
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

This cult is trying desperately to justify what they did.

Kill the child, then lie about him. That strategy won’t work in this case.

mirele wrote:

“Christian Extremists”

An oxymoron. Maybe not Christ-ian. Religious extremists?

@ Eagle:
Thank you for your gracious reply. I’m sorry that I was not more so myself.

William wrote:

Is this not merely a perverted context within the discipline movement? Sure, Dever &c. would never beat someone to death; but the emotional, psychological, and spiritual damage done to some people could take years from which to recover.

I think you make an excellent point; this whole matter is a representation of what is devilishly wrong with parts of the church today….
🙁

Joe2 wrote:

For those who are interested, here is a picture of the Word of Life church and the Roman Catholic church next door.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0254391,-75.2700224,3a,75y,19.99h,96.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7mfUeCibAKv3ZT6JPgN7Gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It is, as most will have realized, housed in an old school building. According to news reports (w/reporters at the scene, interviewing neighbors & police sources, when the police & ambulance arrived on scene, members were trying to convince them to go away w/o coming thru the doors. Several people who live near this “church” said that it is not unusual to see folks come out, bleeding & broken, from other events of the same sort……

Gram3 wrote:

Is this insanity or demonic activity or something else?

Well, I think it’s demonic. Who but satan could conceive of such monstrousness?

Deb wrote:

@ stonemason:

Thank you for your heartfelt comment. May our brothers and sisters in New Hartford and beyond show the love of God to this hurting young man.

The Catholic church down the street held a prayer vigil last night.

Friend wrote:

@ BeenThereDoneThat:
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

This cult is trying desperately to justify what they did.

Kill the child, then lie about him. That strategy won’t work in this case.

I don’t doubt that they are lying; what bothers me is that this is the line they are taking to defend themselves.

Jack wrote:

I think in some cases it’s scarier. Sure there’s the charlatan crowd but there’s also the “true believers”.

I fully agree with you. Often people will excuse authoritarian behavior if the offender has “sincere” motives. The sincere ones are the most dangerous.

Uh-oh. Pastor Ron Carpenter is doing a sermon series on his TV show called, “What Makes A Woman?” He has a Twitter hash, “#WhatMakesAWoman” on the TV screen as he’s preaching.

He opens by asking, “What was God’s original intent when he had female in mind?”

Why do men think they get to dictate to women how women should be women? The Bible even contains a verse saying older women should mentor younger ones – it doesn’t say men get to instruct women on this matter. It’s not a man’s place to tell women how to be women.

I even want to go so far as to say I don’t think it’s their (men’s) place to opine as to what they think God’s intent was for women. Because 9/10 times, we will get a gender complementarian reading that says, “Oh for sure, women are equal in value but not in role, which means women are here to bake cookies for men and to have babies and have little value for anything else. Go pound rocks, single, divorced, or infertile ladies.”

I don’t think I can watch the rest of this sermon (it’s on a Christian network).

@ dee:
It was the timing and wording of the first post that was disturbing. I didn’t want to say anything initially, but since Craig did, I don’t want to leave him standing alone rebuked. I too was shocked when I read it as the first response to this article.

@ zooey111:

Jack wrote: “This is my opinion only but many of the barbaric practices that fundamentalist cults practice come from none other than the bible itself.”

zooey wrote: “Yes. You put your finger on it. There is altogether too much dragging in of nonbiblical teachings, & this is where it ends up.”
+++++++++++++++++++

To me, the point is that it all can be argued as being biblical. Even one former is quoted as saying, “…if you listen to the teachings, they are accurate to the Bible.”

How many contradictory slants and interpretations and understandings of the bible, now? And each one of them is called “biblical” with a big dollop 1 part pious and 2 parts smug.

What started as some mild flogging spun out of control into something much more violent…

Mild flogging. A 19 year old and a 17 year old. At church.

Sure, happens all the time. Routine church conduct. If only it had stopped at mild flogging and hadn’t spun out of control. Right?

Apparently not. This is how it goes — family, friends, neighbors always knew there was something untoward and weird about it, after the fact. {eyeroll} Any criticism and concern is Christian persecution.

This is about religious freedom. First Amendment rights guaranteed by the Constitution. (Actually, the misinterpretation, misapplication and hijacking of what the first Constitutional Convention and drafters meant and intended.)

Jack wrote:

God is “talking” to them. When you have a mandate directly from heaven, anything is possible and any action justifiable.

The devil “talks” to people, too ……. usually in disguise.

Gram3 wrote:

Is this insanity or demonic activity or something else? That is a serious question, because I cannot comprehend how people get drawn into this kind of cult. What is the attraction? There is a payoff for the 9Marks/Acts29/Gospel Glitterati groups, but what is there in this kind of group?

Cults tend to flourish during times of rapid social change and uncertainty. They provide clear answers and narrow choices which can be desirable for some.

Probably most important is that they provide a sense of community and belonging which most people really want and need. In addition, cult members, even those who are not high status in the group, can enjoy being special, ie they are members of the only group going to Heaven or being saved from a natural disaster by a UFO, etc.

@ Deb:

well, that was thoughtful!

Being Catholic, I was never offended much when any of my comments were removed by administrators on Southern Baptist blogs, because I felt they had the right and they knew what to them was ‘inappropriate’ for their blogs. EXCEPT for one issue:
the whole theology of disciplining babies and little ones by beating them into ‘submission’ . . . I couldn’t and cannot stand the heartlessness and stupidity of such thinking . . . and that it is joined together with the Holy Name of Jesus just is too much for me

So I ‘reported’ here on WW when some of my comments on this issue were ‘removed’ from certain blogs. I felt it was important to do so. I had to do something. And I was grateful to Wartburg Watch that it gave me an outlet for being able to speak up when I had been ‘shut up’ by the powers of certain fundamentalist-evangelical blogs.

Those children and young people injured and killed by ‘christians’ and those little babies and small toddlers whipped with cords . . . they needed the protection of the Church against evil . . . and it breaks my heart when still there are some powerful voices in the fundamentalist-evangelical world who foster these beatings as authorized by ‘The Word of God’ . . . God have mercy on us all. Thanks again, WW, for caring about our young people . . . this IS a Christian work of mercy. God Bless!

This was meant to be a reply to
Barbara Roberts wrote: So did anyone make an anonymous tip to cps about possible neglect?

@ zooey111:
ANYBODY who saw people emerge bleeding from this church should have called the police.

@ mirele:

Here’s New Hartford police statement about the crime: http://www.newhartfordtown.com/10-13-2015.htm

Here’s a press release from investigators about allegations of witchcraft, etc. Not a typical move by police. It lets you know there’s more going on behind the scenes. And that the group’s leadership is acting crazy.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/285616010/Leonard-Homicide-Investigation-Press-Release

Friend wrote:

ANYBODY who saw people emerge bleeding from this church should have called the police.

Absolutely. I didn’t read media reports that described that, but true regardless.

elastigirl wrote:

To me, the point is that it all can be argued as being biblical. Even one former is quoted as saying, “…if you listen to the teachings, they are accurate to the Bible.”

This is what I was trying to say. You said it better!! Thanks!

Christiane wrote:

Being Catholic, I was never offended much when any of my comments were removed by administrators on Southern Baptist blogs, because I felt they had the right and they knew what to them was ‘inappropriate’ for their blogs. EXCEPT for one issue:
the whole theology of disciplining babies and little ones by beating them into ‘submission’ . . . I couldn’t and cannot stand the heartlessness and stupidity of such thinking . . . and that it is joined together with the Holy Name of Jesus just is too much for me

So I ‘reported’ here on WW when some of my comments on this issue were ‘removed’ from certain blogs. I felt it was important to do so. I had to do something. And I was grateful to Wartburg Watch that it gave me an outlet for being able to speak up when I had been ‘shut up’ by the powers of certain fundamentalist-evangelical blogs.

Those children and young people injured and killed by ‘christians’ and those little babies and small toddlers whipped with cords . . . they needed the protection of the Church against evil . . . and it breaks my heart when still there are some powerful voices in the fundamentalist-evangelical world who foster these beatings as authorized by ‘The Word of God’ . . . God have mercy on us all. Thanks again, WW, for caring about our young people . . . this IS a Christian work of mercy. God Bless!

Well said, my friend. I am with you on this subject. We HAVE to stop torturing children & then claiming “religious liberty” as a defense.
Someone once said that, “your rights end when your fist hits the other person in the face”. [Learned Hand, maybe?] We all need to get back to that principal.

Max wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

[Michael Pearl] Patriarch Beard

There has been an outbreak of such facial hair in New Calvinist ranks. It’s a mark of devotion to their patron saint Calvin.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but Michael Pearl is not a Calvinist, and in fact teaches against it.

Steve Scott wrote:

Max wrote:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
[Michael Pearl] Patriarch Beard
There has been an outbreak of such facial hair in New Calvinist ranks. It’s a mark of devotion to their patron saint Calvin.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Michael Pearl is not a Calvinist, and in fact teaches against it.

Could be true, never paid much attention to the dreadful Mr. Pearl, but abusers come in all shapes and sizes, Holiness Pentecostals, Neocalvinists, Roman Catholics, unltrafundamentalists like the IBF crowd, etc.

Joe2 wrote:

For those who are interested, here is a picture of the Word of Life church and the Roman Catholic church next door.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0254391,-75.2700224,3a,75y,19.99h,96.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7mfUeCibAKv3ZT6JPgN7Gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Wow, the difference in architecture helps explain it for me. One looks like what a church should look like. The other… Alcatraz in the ‘burbs anyone?

Friend wrote:

However, Word of Life contains baptized, worshiping believers. The challenge to the rest of us Christians is to eliminate evil from our faith, not to look at a murder or a case of abuse and say, “Well, obviously that’s a cult and the people who did this aren’t Christians.”

You know them by their fruits. And any group that exercises such vicious control as that, practices such unconscionable evil as that, is not showing the fruits of the right spirit. Can a good tree bear bad fruit? Of course they come as angels of light, of course they baptize, of course they–at least on some level–mouth the right doctrine. So what? I care not.

Anyone can learn doctrine and come to believe it in their minds, just as one can believe Chevy makes a better truck or that laissez-faire economics is superior to a command economy. They can argue in favor of their doctrine and shout it from the pulpit and say certain words that sound like Christianity, but that no more means they’re Christians than they’re ham salad sandwiches. We were warned by the Lord millenia ago that we will know them by their fruits. I cannot for the life of me understand why Christians have gone soft on this point. Jesus overturned tables and ran a bunch of abusive frauds out of the temple court, He didn’t slowly whip a boy to death.

It appears these people also abused the animals in their life as well. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/caged-dogs-found-home-couple-charged-sons-death-34566478 The conditions in the house were horrendous. They should have been charged with the abuse of the children (as well as the animals) for the condition of the house alone.

@ okrapod:
I never thought of it that way. And now, all you hear about from SBC leaders is whether or not something falls within the BFM. How convenient.

Nancy2 wrote:

B-I-B-L-E

You just have to wonder how any Christians lived an authentic faith before the Bible was written down and canonized. Did Christianity become more authentic after the King James version was published, even though linguistically, historically, and geographically it was farther removed from Jesus?

Friend wrote:

You just have to wonder how any Christians lived an authentic faith before the Bible was written down and canonized.

Considering how that took place in history, people really did not have much choice. Dissent from the authority and you were punished.

Friend wrote:

You just have to wonder how any Christians lived an authentic faith before the Bible was written down and canonized.

Maybe that conundrum is one reason that people keep placing faith in the ‘original manuscripts’ which we do not have and for which there is no evidence that they exist. Which is to say that one can postulate that there never was a time when there were not written instructions (the original manuscripts) because how could people possibly come to faith in Christ otherwise. Of course, why no one postulates that the originals might have inconsistencies with each other just like the earliest copies that we have–how could that be if no one comes to Christ except through what is written down. After all did Jesus not say for his followers to stay in Jerusalem until somebody writes something down, and did not Peter read from some early NT writing at Pentecost and was that not what the crowds found convincing?

(sarcasm off)

I have a high view of scripture, actually, and I hate to see the abuses of scripture which can be heard from so many sources today. If people take scripture and try to redefine and repurpose it into something which it was not designed to be, and then if/when scripture fails to live up to the new expectations, at that point scripture is made to look foolish and worse. So what are people to think at that point? There are those out there who do make scripture (and themselves) look foolish and worse, and who try to get other people to join them in such nonsense, and that is what I want to rail against.

Jack wrote:

Sure there’s the charlatan crowd but there’s also the “true believers”. They are sure that their interpretation of the bible is the only one, and they are sure that God is “talking” to them. When you have a mandate directly from heaven, anything is possible and any action justifiable.

Because they now have (literally) Cosmic-level Justification of whatever they were going to do anyway. “I WANNA = GOD WILLS IT!”

zooey111 wrote:

Gram3 wrote:

Is this insanity or demonic activity or something else?

Well, I think it’s demonic. Who but satan could conceive of such monstrousness?

Idunno, Zooey.
People can be VERY creative along those lines all by their lonesome.

Steve Scott wrote:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but Michael Pearl is not a Calvinist, and in fact teaches against it.

It is really strange how things play out. His method of discipline for babies seems to hinge on imputed guilt as understood with total depravity.

Friend wrote:

Legalism and literalism probably played a big role in the abuses and violence committed at Word of Life Church.

Word of Life could hardly be a worse misnomer.

I’m not convinced the bible played any role in what went on, because what was done was so absolutely against it central tenets. Atheists like to quote Rev 2 : 23 and I will strike her children dead and force a literal meaning on a symbolic text, but I don’t see where a ‘literal’ reading of the bible could ever justify such actions. No murderer has eternal life abiding in him

@ Eagle:
I live elsewhere and don’t know anything about state and local zoning in New York. Where I live, many older churches cannot lease their Sunday school classrooms to preschool organizations because of zoning. Sunday school classrooms don’t have to meet the latest requirements for number of square feet per enrolled child, etc. Perhaps the Sunday school classrooms are grandfathered in, or the regs don’t apply/exist.

Around here a lot of churches meet inside school buildings, but only for regular worship services.

I like the idea of investigating the question of zoning. That might have been one more way to look into this congregation, in addition to police and CPS.

Eagle wrote:

city zoning restrictions

Here in my town a presbyterian church bought a former school and operates a church and a school on the property. Very middle class operation.

Re: authoritarian control, church discipline, group think, & the harm to people’s lives that results:

I expect that as more of this story is clarified so will the parallels between this and the likes of Mark Driscoll, Mars Hill, Matt Chandler, The Village Church, Acts 29, 9Marks, Jonathon Leeman, Sovereign Grace, CJ Mahaney, etc. and all those who support them (including in silence, like The Gospel Coalition).

These groups and Word of Life in New Hartford, New York all have these in common with their leaders: control and manipulation, rumors, insinuations, shunning, intimidation, & more.

They all have groupthink in common with their members.

I am hoping for high publicity full-fledged comparisons and analysis. Towards change, acknowledgements of grievous error, humble apologies that don’t fall short, restitution where it is warranted.

@ Law Prof:
This brings back memories, but only vaguely, of some people in the homeschooling movement when I was a teen (that’d be back in the late 90’s and early 00’s) who were adamantly against calling teenagers … teenagers – I think it was, or maybe they were against the term youth – for some stupid semantic reason that mattered only to the nitpickiest of fundamentalists. For better or for worse (probably mostly for better) my brain has forced out any further memories of why this might have been, but like the opposition to “kids,” it was a thing about which some people raised a big stink.

Mandy–How do you respond when you are beaten? With fear and more fear. Yes, that could make them stay. Even if they left, it is a fear that would haunt them for years.

@ Ken:
No murderer has eternal life abiding in him? I am not sure that any heinous act plainly shows the state of a person’s soul. Are all Christians really incapable of murder and manslaughter? Assuming that the act of murder proves one is not a Christian, what about repentance?

When we say that murderers aren’t Christian, we run the risk of ignoring monsters in our midst, and placing victims in some lesser state. This young man was murdered in church by his congregation, much as the “witches” of Salem were murdered by Christians in 1692.

@ Josh:
Some fundamentalists don’t believe in adolescence because certain words are not found in the King James version. This simplistic view goes along with patriarch-led courtship, early marriage, and opposition to the “government schools.”

@ Daisy: I am relieved to see this.

@ Josh:

The concept of adolescence (teen/youth) is a disputed concept. Some people think that is an idea conjured up by our society in order to keep younger people out of the work force longer-thus reserving the jobs for older people. I do know that the idea has changed since I was young. For example, when I went into nurses’ training after high school in the ’50s, that being a hospital based program with aspects of the military and aspects of the convent among other things, we were age 18-21 and nobody remotely considered us teenagers or adolescents, even though the legal age of majority in our state was 21 at the time. We were there to learn a profession, choose a husband, and hurl ourselves out at 21 being married professionals ASAP. And most of us did just that. Expectations change over the decades.

Also, this sort of idea is partially culture bound, there being a fairly large ethnic group here that emphasizes growing up (earning money and choosing a mate and having babies) younger than other groups tend to do. That would be whether or not they were still in high school. I doubt that people would dare insinuate that these people were not ‘grown up’ whatever that means exactly.

What I have described had/has nothing to do with crazy religious ideas. The religious ideas people may be a whole different ball game for all I know.

I am thrilled to hear that Christopher is out of the hospital. I pray he is staying in a safe place, free from harm from these loony people. The pictures of his parents give me the creeps. They look like they are either mentally challenged or on some type of drug. Now we hear that their house was a big garbage dump and smelled like animal feces, etc. Put this all together and you come up with a pretty bad scenario.

@ numo:
Oh, and… undergrad was also supposed to where and how women found husbands.

I think the older people in my generation (Boomers) were wise to reject that, even though many people of both sexes tend to find their spouses during undergrad.

@ Gram3:

‘And the Far Side talking animals were also off-limits because animals are not made in the image of God.’

More likely that the powers that be didn’t want people to see Gary Larson telling it like it is. Having spent undergrad time drawing protozoa, this is one of my favourites:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/59087682/far-side-pulling-your-flagellum-nancy

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
It was, to a degree, where i lived, but very much on the wane. I think people saw martiage as something to be deferred until after ghry got some kind of post-HS education. There were a lot of single Vietnam vets in my undergrad dept., too.

@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
Child labor was outlawed not entirely outlawed in the US until 1938, though there was a growing outcry from the early 1830s on, and a great deal of activism (including limited bans and sanctions) prior to that time.

When i was young, it was illegal for anyone to leave school prior to age 16. Not sure what the age is (in my state) now, though.

Friend wrote:

When we say that murderers aren’t Christian, we run the risk of ignoring monsters in our midst

No murderer has eternal life abiding in him is a quotation from 1 John 3 (worth reading for the context). The whole of this epistle is about authentic Christianity and how to distinguish between what people say and what they actuallyare. Just as there is a doctrinal minimum (“the fundamentals”) below which something is not really Christian, so there is a minimum change in behaviour as well. This latter is probably neglected in evangelical circles, who sometimes pay too much attention to someone being doctrinally correct but fail to check if this is worked out in practice. The ‘fruit’ that Law Prof quite rightly mentioned above.

Now any Christian can fall into sin and succumb to temptation. No-one attains sinless perfection, there is a life-long battle to overcome the tendency to do wrong or fail to do right. It’s when this becomes a regular characteristic of their life or if following their alleged conversion there is no real change in behaviour that their faith needs to be tested to see if it is genuine. … whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother. An ongoing life of sin negates a profession of faith. A Christian may fall into sin and commit adultery, for example, but there is no such thing as a ‘Christian adulterer’.

It’s not that Christians never do wrong, rather their conscience will no longer let them get away with it.

I would say that a murderer is not a Christian. In the present case the charge is manslaughter, but I think you are wrong to try to portray this as the action of genuine Christians (This young man was murdered in church by his congregation). This isn’t the no true Scotsman fallacy, nor an attempt to let Christians off the hook if and when they do wrong, but there really is a fake (false apostles, false brethren) in church circles that sooner or later manifests itself in evil behaviour.

At the end of the age this will all come to light, and the fake ‘believers’ will say `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ and ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’. There will be no plea bargaining or negotiations about this, no higher court to appeal to.

@ Law Prof:

“I don’t think I’m ready to say no one can murder and be a Christian. I know King David had the Holy Spirit, and, as many kings, did some heinous things, including murder.”
+++++++++++++

just being tangential here… but I often ponder intelligence agencies, and the use of assassins. It seems necessary. these people, who seem to perform a necessary service, are they disqualified from heaven? Can one be an assassin, have the very special skillset, and be a….’God-Jesus-Holy Spirit person’? (trying to avoid the loaded word “Christian”)

or maybe I’ve just read too many Robert Ludlum books.

Oops, I forgot to include the link.

http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/24684-6-warning-signs-of-spiritual-abuse

Law Prof wrote:

I think if we embrace just anyone as a fellow believer because they tick off correct doctrine, we run the risk of inviting those very monsters into our midst.

“Correct Doctrine” is just Christianese for “Purity of Ideology”, and we know what Purity of Ideology has justified in the past.

okrapod wrote:

The concept of adolescence (teen/youth) is a disputed concept. Some people think that is an idea conjured up by our society in order to keep younger people out of the work force longer-thus reserving the jobs for older people. I do know that the idea has changed since I was young.

My idea of “adolescence” is that it is the transition phase between child and adult, and varies from culture to culture. On one end, you have cultures with distinct rites of passage where you go into the rite as a child and come out as an adult — all or nothing. On the other end, you have our culture where high-tech educational requirements and age-based cultural marketing have led to a long transition with no clear markers along the way.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

I don’t know what “Shamitah” means, but you have to be referring to the Four Blood Moons Rapture Scare.

There is a messianic rabbi, Jonathan Cohn, who writes about Jewish feasts and commemorations and such. He has popularized the shemitah which is the seventh year in a jewish recurring cycle of seven years. He says that various things have happened in the past at the shemitah years and he postulated that there might be economic or whatever things this time, the last shemitah ending last month. From what I have heard of what he says it has nothing to do with a rapture theory but has to do with judgment against nations.

@ Daisy:

OK, Cahn not Cohn. I need to pay more attention to these things. I think that what he says and his style of delivery (like the talk in DC not too long ago) do sound like what the ancient prophets of Israel might say, basically that the nation must repent or else judgment is inevitable eventually.

Of course, others say similar stuff, like Franklin Graham sometimes IIRC, but Cahn looks the part pretty much.

Law Prof wrote:

When I see individuals who, over the course of decades, lift themselves up to self-proclaimed high positions of authority, abuse others in the name of Christ, cut them off from family, while strutting and making themselves out to be great things, bragging about the great works they’ve done, when the results are destroyed families and people who are, perhaps, now inoculated from pursuing a relationship with Jesus because they’ve been so abused by people who professed to represent Him, I wonder if those abusive leaders who seem to only double down on justifying themselves and throwing off the blame on others, are really believers at all. Shouldn’t there be some growth? A little repentance? Introspection? A little struggle? Shouldn’t we see some positive change over time? But we don’t seem to from many of these types, do we? They deny and deny, then when confronted with proof, they don’t even acknowledge that they’d been lying all along about what they’ve done, they immediately shift into the mode of “Well you’re no better, who are you to judge?” Then just as quickly they can profess a public repentance that chiefly can be summed up as “While I did make some mistakes for which I’ve apologized, I’m very sorry that you’ve all misunderstood my generally pure intentions all these years, and you should be ashamed for the ways you’ve treated me, your ungodly lack of forgiveness for my little mistakes.” When I see this, when I see a Driscoll or Gothard or Doug Phillips and their seeming inability to just repent, I wonder what they are. I do not assume them a brother, they may be, but even if so, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be called out for their evil and avoided at all costs.
I think if we embrace just anyone as a fellow believer because they tick off correct doctrine, we run the risk of inviting those very monsters into our midst.

I agree. A person who consistently shows bad fruit is most likely a person who is either a nonbeliever, or someone so deeply involved in an evil enterprise that s/he has nothing but evil to show.