“If the person you're talking with continues to press you for more or can't seem to accept your answer, then you are being harassed. I know that sounds hard for people-pleasers to accept, but it's true. No means no.” ― Suzette Hinton link
Do women *owe* men a date?
Recently there was an interesting and short debate on Twitter.
I happen to agree with Rachael Starke. A woman does not owe a man a date any more than a man owes a woman a date. If one is not attracted to the individual or sees *red flags* it is perfectly appropriate to say "No thank you" and move on. Going on a date with someone that makes you feel uncomfortable is potentially dangerous. Always trust you instincts. The following is a story about one woman who wisely trusted her instincts.
How Linda Met Joe
Linda is a very bright, well-spoken college professor in her early 50s. She became a Christian when she was 23. Besides earning her advanced degrees, Linda also hoped to marry a Christian and have a family. Linda is also a Christian egalitarian and found TWW through Christians for Biblical Equality. She has a passion for children and has been a long time foster mother. Then 11 years ago, she became the foster parent to a wonderful baby boy. When he turned 4 years old, he became available for adoption and Linda became his mom. My married daughter and her husband have just finished a foster training course and will begin to host children next month. We had much to talk about.
Linda stressed that she wanted to share her story so that other people wouldn't have to experience the same sort of troubling interaction she had at ChristianMingle. One observation Linda made at the start of our conversation is that she has met a number of passionate, domineering and outspoken complementarian/patriarchal men at many of these sites. She says they also tend to dominate the conversations in some of the single Christian chat rooms.
So, trusting in the safety promises of ChristianMingle, Linda paid her membership, posted her profile, and met Joe.
ChristianMingle's stated safety policies.
The following safety statements are taken directly from the website's safety section. I highlighted some pertinent sections.
Our Commitment to Your Safety
Ongoing Development
ChristianMingle.com is the leading online community for Christian singles to connect. We care deeply about our members. In fact, your safety and security is our top priority. Because of this, we take precautions to enhance the safety and privacy of our community members by:
Implementing several proprietary, automated tools to identify questionable profiles
Working to eliminate fraudulent activity in our communities
Having profile-review experts manually review all profile text and photos submitted by members
Yet, when it comes to online dating, singles should apply the same standard dating precautions they would if meeting someone through friends, the workplace, or at a bar. The main thing to remember? Trust your instincts and use common sense!
Use Christian Mingle for Anonymity
Keep your communication with new Christian Mingle matches on the site! By using Christian Mingle's communication tools (such as email, IM and the message boards), you can protect your anonymity as long as you'd like, and control the pace of the relationship until you're comfortable with the next step. This way, we can also help to keep you safe by continuing to monitor all members for suspicious activity. Rest assured, if someone is harassing other members, or asking for money and the activity is reported, we can catch the activity while it's still on our site and remove the profile in question. Remember — once you start communicating outside of Christian Mingle, our team is limited in the measures we can take to help you.
No Is No
Stay away from members who won't take no for an answer, or pressure you for any kind of personal Information.
The problem with the ChristianMingle system.
I have contacted Christian Mingle for a statement but I have not heard back from them. I will post any response that I get.
I am not at liberty to share Linda's area of expertise. However, it would not be wrong to say that she understands information systems way better than the average person. I, however, understand this stuff way less than the average person. So, I am going to try to explain this issue as best as I can. However, I can assure you that Linda knows her way around this stuff.
- If Person A wants to block further contact from Person B, they block Person B's profile. However, If Person A is the first to block Person B, Person B cannot block person A's profile since they can no longer see it. Person A can temporarily unblock their profile, send a message to Person B and then block their profile again. Therefore, Person B can keep getting unwanted messages from Person A. Joe was Person A and Linda was Person B.
- Person B could then block Person A's screen name. However, Person A could keep changing their screen name and still have access to Person B
(I beg Linda's forgiveness for my totally inept explanation of this stuff.)
Their correspondence on ChristianMingle
The only message from Linda in this correspondence is the second one.(#2). She did not keep responding to Joe. The last message is from ChristianMingle. Read Joe's messages and ask yourself:
- Do you think Linda *owes* him the courtesy of a date, ala Collin Hansen, Editorial Director of The Gospel Coalition? (See Tweets at beginning of post.)
- Do you think that Joe sounds stable?
The first message is from Joe to Linda. It got a bit chopped off because i was removing identifiers. (Joe better thank me…)
It appears that ChristianMingle did not help protect Linda from Joe's harassment.
Let's review the following statement from the safety policy.
Rest assured, if someone is harassing other members, or asking for money and the activity is reported, we can catch the activity while it's still on our site and remove the profile in question.
Linda corresponded with the staff from Christian Mingle. Since she was continuing to receive messages from Joe, she questioned their message in which said they took action. They wouldn't tell what action they took except to make sure he was blocked from her list. This was useless since Joe seemed to get around the blocks. Linda requested that she be removed from ChristianMingle and have her money refunded. They reportedly refused to do so.
So Linda left ChristianMingle. But, I guess Joe is still out there,hanging around ChristianMingle and waiting to pounce on the next woman who doesn't buy his somewhat threatening ( in my opinion) expression of his theological distinctives.
My question for ChristianMingle is quite simple: If Joe's messages do not constitute harassment, what does? Also, does ChristianMingle support the theory that a woman's "no" doesn't really mean "no?"
Finally, would Collin Hansen, the Editorial Director of The Gospel Coalition (see tweets at the start of the post), suggest that Linda should go out on one date with Joe as a "matter of courtesy?"
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Maybe because Colin thinks that women would never ask a man out to begin with. Doing that is being a Feminist, and we all know that Feminism leads to Apostacy…right?
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This totally wouldn’t be an extension of the PCCP mindset. Not at all!
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So they didn’t add a “block sender” to their message/email UI? Aside from the CYA of the response, it sounds like they have a few security holes in their software if Joe can get around their block.
Nightmare situation: CM’s user data gets hacked and released online…
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Maybe they are also patriarchal? Incidentally, this seems to be a problem on other dating sites as well. Check out the Instagram account Bye Felipe for some truly disturbing posts. I guess the Christian sites aren’t much better.
Hey, Joe. #ByeFelipe
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“Good Luke” ???
That’s hysterical. Good riddance.
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I met my new wife on CM. It is a tool to meet others who OBSTENSIBLY share like interests and beliefs. I met some very, very nice people on CM. The ladies I met had ALL had at least one experience of going out with a CM member of the “User/Taker” orientation. I think it is a mistake to assume that CM is going to uphold some high level of spiritually correct administration. They are NOT a non-profit. I do think they will make an effort to respond to some gross misbehavior. A high degree of caveat emptor is appropriate with regard to the statements of CM members. We all want to put our best foot forward. Some of us use considerable latitude in describing what we feel are our “good” points. I found that if I put my “deal breakers” very, very clearly in my profile, I seemed to have fewer fruitless dialogs. CM is a tool that can und up hurting you if you do not carefully control how YOU use the tool. It can possibly give you a high degree of UNWARRANTED confidence in someone you really do not know at all other than what you have seemingly learned thru written correspondence and/or phone calls. Proceed with the utmost caution!
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Definitely Joe is a disturbed individual. Patriarchy may not have made him a jerk, but it surely provides encouragement for his entitlement mentality and spiritual superiority complex.
As for Colin Hansen, the plain fact is that “complementarianism” teaches universal female deference. Therefore, within that ethic, what Hansen said is reasonable and a female owes the male a courtesy because he is male and she is female. In any sane world, it is ridiculous, but Hansen is somebody because of YRR. And YRR is, at its core, about creating the illusion of significance for people who feel otherwise insignificant. It is all about creating a false identity as a Biblical Man rather than a true identity of In Christ.
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You should be careful about all dating sites, including the Christian ones. There are lots of nutty men and women out there.
I saw a profile on one site with a picture of Mary Kay Letourneau with the caption “Likes Younger Men”.
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Joe’s interactions are bizarre. He’s not merely arguing.
1. He claims special revelation from years living as a monk.
2. She offered him “graven images?” WHat is that supposed to mean? I can’t even tell what it’s referring to: maybe commentaries instead of special revelation
3. He diagnoses her as a narcissist after a very nice, reasoned message.
4. All the bizarre equating of “adultress” with “wife.”
5. He implies she will be in trouble in the judgment
6. He has his own definition of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Maybe there is some group that teaches that, but I’ve never heard that one.
7. “I could play with your head for hours.”
The excerpts here sound like the writing of someone who is mentally ill, though I am not a psychiatrist and don’t play one on TV. I think it’s likely that the harassment is an outgrowth of that, not of patriarchal beliefs. When people are mentally ill, they take belief systems they encounter and weave those systems into their distorted thinking. I think patriarchy is irrelevant.
And yes, Christian Mingle has a problem since this went this far.
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Look what kind of man this woman met on Christian Mingle.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/02/victim-of-christianmingle-rapist-suing-her-attacker-and-his-mother-after-facebook-harassment/
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
That is awful!
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Alan House wrote:
I didn’t think that at all. What I do think is that they should uphold their guarantees on harassment since this is obviously such a situation. If they will not do that, then they should not say they will in their statement.
I am not against Christian dating services. My brother met his wife on one.
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Abi Miah wrote:
I actually thought the same thing. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why they allowed this to continue.
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I saw this and had a huge giggle. My parents met way before the Internet, but their names are Linda and Joe. Unrelated, I know, but personally funny. 😉
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doubtful wrote:
🙂
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I found Joe’s comments demeaning, insulting and last but not least…threatening. He sounds very, very angry at women in particular. I think was very wise to leave ChristianMingle if for no other reason, to stop this diatribe.
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I have heard a lot of good and a lot of bad about this site. You have to be very discerning like Alan said. I have lots of relatives who have met their spouses in inline dating sites. A friend of mine also met his wife on christianmingle. If I were younger and single I would probably go this route. But then in my younger years I was also very naive and I would have probably been sucked in by somebody on this site saying they were one thing and they weren’t it at all. I went on lots of blind dates before I met my husband (30 yrs now) on a blind date. My son wants to get on this site and I told him to be very careful and pray about it a lot. So far he isn’t on it.
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Gram3 wrote:
“Former brewery-wagon driver saved from obscurity by his beloved Nazis.”
— Leon Uris, Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin, description of a (fictional) death-camp commandant
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I don’t want to take away from the serious issues under discussion, but I feel like God laid it on my heart to share this spoof of Christian Mingle advertising.
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/44174464b3/the-gay-christian-mingle
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Abi Miah wrote:
Probably the word “equality”.
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dee wrote:
Dee, the way it’s presented, it’s not obvious that the CM message came earlier in the harassment. Unless, of course, you’re referring to the “as we indicated previously” — which itself is not represented in the timeline. When, exactly, did they try to block the guy?
It is evident, however, that they didn’t delete his profile as they’d promised they would in the case of a troublemaker.
I don’t know if my comments are making sense tonight. I think I’d better go and lie down and nurse this headache. Still, scary stuff. We dealt with an internet stalker who, even though the interface was supposed to make people anonymous, was able to track down a local friend on a social media site who was connected to our loved one. Still not sure how he managed to do that, but it was frightening.
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@ dee:
The guy really does sound deranged. I wonder if the people who run this site have any clue about what harrassment and abuse really are? My guess is not only that they don’t, but that they don’t care about finding out.
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@dee, is your daughter and her husband in NC? If so, what county? My wife and I completed our foster care courses and were licensed this summer. We are now fostering two beautiful children, a brother and sister. In the church where I am one of the pastors, we have several families that are either fostering or are going through the process. I am thankful for any believer, single or married, who is willing to foster and/or adopt.
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Haven’t commented on here in a while, but yes, it is common among the TGC and “Biblical man-womanhood council crowd to tell single women this. My previous roommate who is a TGC blogger wrote about this a few years ago and said it encourages men to have to confidence to ask the next woman out. In other words, stroke their ego.
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Gram3 wrote:
Gram3 That is probably the best description of YRR I have heard to date. I have continually asked myself what are the actual socialogical contexts that made YRR so popular at this point in time. I think you have it right, young people who feel insignificant need a false identity to feel significant and have found this in a movement of men not in the identity of Christ. Im gonna have to nooodle this out but i think your right.
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Joe sounds like the typical cage stage YRR male SBTS student. Unless you agree in lockstep, they cannot stop themselves. Note the multiple comments he thinks is proving his superior spiritual knowledge with ( bizarre) declarations in spite of NO response. It is as if they are actually trying to prove something to themselves by parroting what they have been taught.
I just get mental images of this escalating in person with no good ending in sight.
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Christina wrote:
Yeah! Let’s create REAL MEN by telling women to pretend they’re interested in them! Biblical Manhood, Dude…….
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Christina wrote:
Hearing the word no would do these spoiled little boys alot of good. Being told no helped me and didnt shatter my poor fragile male ego. For such manly men they sure can be easily damaged.
I am not really suprised that CM was less than helpful. When it comes down to it, they are a business and aren’t going to do much that upsets the flow of gravy. What will get them to act responsibly is members resigning, esp female members, because they do not actually protect members. Money talks, right now the cash is flowing so they arent looking to “fix” what they see is working.
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refugee wrote:
LOL! I was wondering the same about “graven images”. Then I remembered that if we are dealing with a personality disorder it is really dumb to try and find reason and/or meaning in what they say. :o)
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original Mitch wrote:
Don’t get me started. (wink)
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I’ve been on that obligatory date! She dressed like a slob, texted a mutual male friend the whole time, and started a “are you really a Christian” inquisition. Did I mention she was from The Village Church? And restaurants aren’t cheap where down here. Ugh.
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“I could play with your head for hours” is a huge red flag–he sounds controlling and thinks he’s superior
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@ Burwell Stark:
They are in Wake County as am I. The went through the Methodist Home training.
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Christina wrote:
Wait! Aren’t these guys supposed to be *real* men-leaders, etc.?
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@ Sharon:
That comment caused me concern as well.
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Stan wrote:
Did she have a contract for you to sign as well?
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Lydia wrote:
Especially when women disagree with them. That is intolerable.
What puzzles me, however, is the women who promote this idea that women should always be there to prop up some guy. Here is the latest from desiring God:
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/we-need-to-talk-about-submission
How does this woman miss the point that the controlling phrase is that all of us are supposed to submit to one another. But ignoring the exegesis, the exalted position these individuals give to the idea of the wife submitting to the husband (yes one way) seems bizarre to me. “Submission in marriage bears witness to our risen Lord who reigns supreme.” Really?
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You know, when the comp teachers; i.e. Grudem, Piper, etc. lay out this type of doctrine, they try to make it seem so spiritual, honorable, and beneficial for all concerned.
But when you hear it all jumbled together in a meaningless manner in Joe’s comments, you can easily see how rotten the fruit of that teaching is. It has, in at least one person, produced an arrogant, pompous attitude and he’s proud of it! He’s using a little knowledge as a weapon to wound a total stranger and apparently thinks she deserves it.
Talk about rotten fruit…
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@ dee:
Clearly, I didn’t make that far. I probably got this attitude because I failed to consult The Gospel Coalition’s gospel-centered restaurant directory.
But seriously, first dates with girls who really are interested and don’t hesitate are pretty great. A true charmer of ladies isn’t much interested in the alternative. This supports my theory that purity culture + complepatriarchy = romantically clueless guys.
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@ Stan: Village peeps are famous for that speech/talk. I was a member there at one point. Glad I have had some time to distance myself and realize TVC isn’t the end all be all to Christianity.
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original Mitch wrote:
The tell is actually in RBMW where Piper poses the hypothetical boy/girl who asks, “Mommy, what does it mean to be a man/woman?” That is a question that children do not ask. But adults who are very insecure in their identity *do* ask those kinds of questions.
The significance things isn’t the only factor, IMO. There is also a reaction against the shallow Christianity or fake Christianity or legalistic Christianity of their parents. Or an over-reaction to the secularism and disordered families in which they grew up. They are looking for guarantees and the perfect system to bring order to their observed chaos. I also think there is an element of intellectual pride in people who have never had to work at a hard labor job and imagine themselves superior to the common folks.
I’ve had to think about this a lot for a dozen years or so. One of the things that started that process was a situation where someone close to me who was truly stalked by a creep steeped in YRR/Wilson/Piper idiocy. Then she was subjected to abuse by his church people for not being properly submissive and for being rebellious because she would not defer to him in every jot and tittle and, by the way, didn’t she know that she needed to practice submission? Let’s just say that Joe is a familiar character to me. Since that happened, I’ve met numerous Joes and heard first-hand accounts about yet more of them.
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@ Will M:
Just like boys find identity in the YRR movement, women find identity in gender roles. Back in the wild blogging days there was a site that tried so hard to bring comps/egals together to find common ground. What always shocked me were the professional, successful and educated women who were strident comps. After a while, you catch on that they might have issues with being more successful than their husband but he can be THE success as the spiritual leader (if she makes it so) That way, she did not marry below herself.
No matter how you shake out comp doctrine, it always ends up making women submissive BUT responsible for the outcomes. Think about it. That is a sort of covert “power” and some women like that. The man cannot be the leader unless she plays her role.
You might be surprised at how many powerful comp couples there are in evangelicalism where the wife was like General Patton backstage and running the show. The women get something from it: Identity, fake piousness, power, etc. It is a game of manipulation tactics for both of them whether it is with the audience or each other.
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Lydia wrote:
Lydia, I was hoping you would chime in since you have and have had a front row seat to this movement. Do you think this is more sociological than theological? I keep thinking this has much more to do with the generation affected and they society they were raised by and in than anything found in God’s word. Since the leaders in this movement are atleast one if not two generations ahead of the followers I know what motivates them is mostly the power and accolades of the young followers.
I just cant attribute this to an honest study of the word. I keep clinging to the knowledge that the movement cannot sustain itself and it will wane. It just isnt happening fast enough.
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Will M wrote:
I just wish they had to explain silliness like this in person to a group who actually practice mutual submission. They need to be expected to explain what this looks like in real life, for starters.
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@ dee: Exactly. The advice doesn’t make any sense based on their logic for everything else.
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Lydia wrote:
Very true observation. My impression of the comps (not all) is that its all about power. So, often times the guy is the big up front boss, while the woman is behind trying to manipulate situations so that she can control things. To me, this seems very contrary to what Jesus was teaching
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Will M wrote:
In that world, your only purpose as a woman is to be a “suitable helper” for a man. A woman has no worth in herself, because God created her *for* the man. The way to rise to the top in that world is to be a female voice for the goodness and validity of something which is neither good nor valid, no matter how much they use the “Biblical” concealer. They use spiritual blackmail when they say that women only object to their doctrine because submission is odious to the woman’s sinful flesh which she needs to mortify. Women are conditioned to believe that their spiritual maturity is reflected in how submissive they are rather than how much they resemble Christ. Women tell competitive submission stories when they get together. Sort of like fish stories. Those stories serve the purpose of building the woman up in the eyes of her peers and also of diminishing her over-valued husband in a very passive-aggressive way. It is a very unhealthy way to think and live for both men and women.
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Gram3 wrote:
This is why they need systematics. The Bible does not answer questions with a lot of easy lists of this is how you do things. So they have got to put the Bible in its proper order and with its proper relationships (Hodge).
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Do women owe men a date?
I remember my mother teaching me to go out with nice boys who asked, at least once. But those were boys we knew, we knew their parents, we shopped at the same stores and rode the same bus.
But online strangers? Heck, no! No obligation whatsoever.
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@ Christina:
Isn’t one of their lines that we all need to call out our brothers’ sins? Some dudes shouldn’t have confidence because they’re creeps with nothing to offer. But, the gospel-centered single woman should pretend that every man’s a stud?
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OK, where did ole Joe get the part about wife meaning adulteress?
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nmgirl wrote:
There is an anti-woman movement that I’m sure promotes this stuff. I can’t remember the name of it. But many of the members of this/these groups are men burnt by divorce.
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Mara wrote:
Do you mean the Men’s Rights Activists or MRAs? Now there’s a group with Special Snowflake Syndrome.
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Mara wrote:
It’s called the Men’s Rights Movement (MRA) or The Manosphere.
With overlap with the Pick Up Artists (PUAs) on how to USE women sexually.
And I agree; these sound like guys who’ve been burned BAD by women in their life and are hell-bent for revenge against anything without a Y chromosome and testicles.
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Stan wrote:
“Every man’s a Stud”?
Sounds like something associated with prostitutes and pornography.
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Will M wrote:
The Great Chain of Being, boots stamping on their inferiors’ faces from God at the top all the way down.
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Gram3 wrote:
It’s pure One-Upmanship and counting coup.
Like YRRs telling comparative “More Utterly Depraved Than Thou” stories when they get together.
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Will M wrote:
And when you reduce anything to Power Struggle, there are only two possible end states: My boot stamping on your face or your boot stamping on mine. And the only way to avoid the latter is to make sure of the former, FOREVER.
We’ve seen the results over and over in news items and history books.
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Will M wrote:
Yes! It exhausts me to watch. I have some very strong comps in my family and the irony is they own a vacation home where the wife spends 4-6 mos out of the year with some conjugal visits on Holidays, I suppose. :o) The other ones take separate vacations often. It is how they “make it work” for them. They can speak the platitudes as churchy people but as a daily system, it doesn’t work. (How can you “honor” your husband, as is often repeated to us, when you are a 1000 miles away for 6 months?)
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original Mitch wrote:
Definitely. Gram nailed it well.
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@ Stan: you make a good point. I went on a date with a guy from an Acts 29 church here in Denver this year, and he expected me to hold his hand on the first date. He came off as creepy, and I told him that. But he didn’t like that and thought I needed to let him do whatever he wanted. Weird and strange dynamic they have set up. But it is totes cool for dudes to reject the ladies in that circle.
Here is the article for anyone wanting a fascinatung late night read http://www.singleroots.com/are-you-a-no-girl/
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Secular blogs and sites are all over this. There are posts after posts with numerous examples of men who assault women in real life or who stalk them on dating sites/in e-mails if they rebuff the man (even if the woman lets them down very gently and super politely).
A lot of men cannot handle rejection. Lots of them do feel deeply entitled and owed female attention, dates, flirting.
Their reluctance to take a “no” is one common red flag that the guy is a controller or abuser or maybe a wack job – so many blogs and books on domestic violence will tell you that.
(Also, I’ve read that the the flip side of that can be a warning sign, too: guys who are overly charming, sweet, who push the women too fast to get serious or exclusive in dating, can be abusers.)
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As to the saga of Linda and Joe in the OP.
Joe sounds like a crack pot and a fruit cake with a huge gender complementarian chip on his shoulder.
Some of his comments to Linda were somewhat incoherent. He doesn’t sound as though he is packing a full sea bag.
I don’t mean this to sound victim blaming, but one thing I don’t do is talk a lot to these guys on dating sites, as Linda did –
I mean, I don’t go into detail with them about theological differences, as Linda did in her first post to him, because if you are dealing with an unstable fruit loop (or argumentative type), the guy will message you back and argue with you all day, just as Joe Wacko did.
Years ago, I was on a dating site I would log into frequently. One guy who contacted me one day on the site was a cutie.
But, I checked his profile. He belonged to “church X,” shall we say, a church I disagreed with quite a bit on a few points, so I politely explained to him I wouldn’t feel comfortable dating him. I wished him good luck.
This guy kept messaging me back, however, wanting to debate the merits of his denomination.
He was quite miffed I wasn’t keen to date a Church Xer. He was taking it personally. I wrote the guy back and said I was not on that site to debate theology, he was welcome to believe what he wanted, but I was bidding him farewell. I think I blocked him at that point.
I learned that sometimes it’s not wise to even contact the guy at all to let him know you’re not interested.
No matter how polite you are, even if you just say to the guy, “I’m sorry, but I don’t think we’re compatible,” they will hound you and hound you.
The fruit loops, the insecure, and easily offended, will message you ten to 59 more times going, “But whyyyy?? Tell me whyyyy you don’t want me? Just give me a chance. Just one date.”
Not only is that behavior annoying, but it can get scary or creepy.
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I also told the story on here before about on another site. Someone had a woman friend who was against complementarianism – she was a Christian feminist (or whatever label she gave to herself, I don’t remember).
She met “Bob The Christian” on some dating site. I think the guy identified as Christian on the site, but did not admit to being a gender comp.
The guy assured her he was all about women’s lib when she brought up how she supported equality for women, etc.
Flash forward several more months, they get married, he admits to her like several months into the marriage that he’s actually big on gender comp and expects her to obey him.
He became so unbearable to live with, that the lady divorced him.
This guy led her on. Pretended to be something he was not on a dating site. I thought Christians were supposed to be opposed to deception, but he was deceiving this lady.
So, maybe in a way it’s good that Joe let his true colors through? Maybe better to find out up front he’s a sexist and a crack pot than date and date him or marry him and find out later?
I am also wondering why Christians keep badgering Christian singles to only marry other Christians when I’m guessing there’s probably some perfectly nice, good looking, loving atheist guy out there who would treat the Christian Lindas of the world ten times better?
Yes, I’ve heard of the “equally yoked” thing, but really, with guys like “Wacko Joe” on Christian dating sites, what is the point again?
If “Larry the Atheist” is going to treat me with kindness and respect, I’d be more willing to date or marry Atheist Larry than Wacko Christian Joe.
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This is from Feb 2015:
Victim Sues Christian Mingle Rapist, His Mother
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Victim-Sues-Christian-Mingle-Rapist-Sean-Banks-Mother–290735841.html
“Katie Kuhlman is seeking damages from convicted rapist Sean Banks and his mother
…A rape victim, who met her attacker on a Christian dating website [which I believe was Christian Mingle], is now filing a lawsuit against him.”
——–
A lot of married Christians are very keen on dating sites, especially “Christian” ones. They will quickly try to get their single Christian friends who are pining for a significant other to “go join a Christian dating site!!”
As though Christian dating sites are magical fairy lands of chock full of of eligible, normal, smart, funny, sweet, and/or cute men. (They’re not.)
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@ Daisy:
By the way.
It’s my understanding based on earlier news reports I read over a year ago that the guy in that story, the rapist guy – he was intentionally using Christian dating sites specifically to find targets (victims). The story I linked you all to above did not convey that bit of information.
That link I gave made it sound like he just happened to meet his target via that Christian site, when it later was revealed he was specifically using Christian dating sites as his hunting ground. I don’t know or recall if the guy hated Christian women or what and that’s why he used Christian sites, or what.
He was not on “secular” sites like Yahoo personals or Plenty of Fish, or whatever Non-Christians use.
It was either that same guy or another I read about – who used Christian dating sites to select victims – one woman victim was interviewed about the guy. She said he was convincing.
He would talk to her in private dating site e-mail exchanges about his favorite Bible verses, his “love for the Lord,” and he’d use other Christian bingo and Christianese in his communications with her. His profile had Christian-sounding references and things on it.
He sounded like a genuine Christian guy, from what she conveyed.
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Alan House wrote:
IMO, one of the problems though, are deceitful men.
There are some men (whether they are actual Christians or not, who knows), who hate Christian women who are egalitarians, the women who disagree with gender comp and are not terribly interested in dating gender comp men, or not wanting to date GC men who won’t respectfully agree to disagree on that.
Some of these guys will pretend to be okay with Christian feminism, or egalitarianism, to fool the woman. In reality, some of these guys have deep-seated problems with women, and are looking for women to abuse or control.
If such men can deceive these egalitarian / mutualist /(anti- gender comp) Christian women long enough to lure them into a steady relationship, I don’t know it matters much how careful the women use the dating site.
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Alan House wrote:
Sorry I am not trying to dominate the thread here with all the replies, but I just remembered something else about this.
A lot of men do not bother to read a woman’s profile. The majority who have contacted me when I was active on them were saying stuff that gave away the fact that they were not reading my profile.
A lot of men only go by the photo. If they think you are cute, they contact you. Most don’t bother to read your profile.
Not all dating sites operate like eHarmony, where you get taken screen by screen through an intro, where you each have to see a “deal breakers” list.
Heck, even my time on eHarmony revealed that men only like to look at photos, they don’t actually read what women write.
Annnnd. If you do state on your profile the color red is a deal breaker for you, and you refuse to date men who were the color red, you will still get men who love the color red who contact you anyway.
Either because they didn’t bother to read your preferences and deal breakers, or, they read it and are very angry you don’t like red.
They will message you to argue all day about how wrong you are to not want to date men who wear red t-shirts.
Some men on dating sites take your dislikes as a personal affront and will send nasty, hateful messages yelling at you for not liking red or Happy Days reruns or whatever.
You cannot win on dating sites when you’re a woman no matter what you do or what you like.
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Gram3 wrote:
I wonder if Hansen feels the same way about any daughters, sisters, or aunts he has?
If his dad dies and his mother remarries – she goes on dates again to find Husband 2 – I guess he would what, think his mother owes a Creeper like Joe a date merely because Joe asks her for one?
Women do not owe men dates or anything else.
I flirted with a guy back in college I had a crush on. I hoped he would ask me out No, I didn’t feel he owed me a date, even though I put myself out there. He wasn’t interested in dating me.
My ego was a tad wounded, but I survived.
Let that be a lesson for the Hansens of the world.
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dee wrote:
What? They haven’t kissed dating good-bye? Heaven forbid.
Stan made the point I was just about to make — what guy needs to waste time and money on an ‘obligatory date?’
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Melody wrote:
This. This made me laugh so hard. 🙂
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Daisy wrote:
That doesn’t surprise me, given that the quintessential app for men seeking men is all about the [increasingly explicit] photos. I refuse to stereotype a gender completely, but there does seem to be a frequently encountered commonality here…
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@ Josh:
Westboro Mingle (parody ad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbqiiY_Pam8
(Their relationship works because they hate everything together. They say their dating site was created by God.)
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Abi Miah wrote:
I wondered if he was talking about the “scholarly resources” she said she could recommend for him to read?
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Lydia wrote:
I think the OP said Linda is early 50s (or did I mis read the OP maybe)?
Wouldn’t most cage stage SBTS students be 20 somethings, possibly early 30s?
Assuming the guy who was messaging Linda was also 50 something, or around her age, I find his behavior even more puzzling. I would think an older guy would know better and be more mature. But maybe some of the older gender comp guys are that full of themselves.
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Lydia wrote:
Yes, this.
I was reading a book about emotionally abusive people, and the psychologist or whomever who wrote it said over and over, don’t try to make sense of the stuff these people tell you. It will never make sense.
They have inner problems they need to deal with, but in the meantime, they handle their inner problems by screaming like nuts at those around them, and often, what they yell or say doesn’t make sense. It’s not meant to.
The book author said stop wasting your energy and effort at trying to understand people who act like this, trying to understand what they are saying. It will only wear you out.
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Corbin wrote:
Well, if a man and a woman get married: tha Apostle Paul said that the husband has to love his wife, but a wife has to respect and submit to the husband. She isn’t commanded to love her husband, or even like him, for that matter. Women have to be taught to love their husbands. What does it matter? Women are property …. merely support structures used to prop up men’s egos.
I think my house has flood damage from all of the sarcasm and contempt that just oozed from my pores!
Seriously, you find men who behave this way in all walks of life. Not just on Christian dating websites, or in certain religions.
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Sharon wrote:
That is not a red flag. That is a fire alarm. Exit the building immediately!
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nmgirl wrote:
If wife means adulteress, what does husband mean?
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Lydia wrote:
Another thing that bugs me about the undue emphasis on the “marriage (or submission in marriage) represents Christ (or Christ’s relationship to God or the church or whatevever” stuff is that it leaves singles out in the cold.
I accepted Christ as a kid but remain single as an adult. I guess people like me don’t count? that’s the message I get in all the Rah Rah Marriage stuff that John Piper and other Christian pump out.
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Stan wrote:
Mark Regnerus, who is a Christian researcher, writes posts telling single Christian women they should marry Christian men who are addicted to dirty sites, dirty magazines, and dirty movies.
Here is one response to his view by a Christian person who disagreed:
http://www.pornografiaraneste.ro/porn-and-the-singleness-panic.html
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
There is actually a group that, IIRC, is more severe than them, that MRAs laugh at.
I think they are known as MGTOW. (Men going their own way). These are guys that try to cut off any and all contact with women.
Adherence to their view comes in stages, and I forget what all of them are, but one, like step 3 or 4 or whatever it is, is having no contact with women – don’t marry one, don’t date one, don’t sleep with one.
I was just skimming a page about them and what they believe a few days ago. It’s peculiar and sad stuff.
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Daisy wrote:
Now, this is an example of what I would call Total Depravity!
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This guy sounds a lot like a schizophrenic former friend of mine. My friend’s (very sad) descent into mental illness was also marked by really disjointed theological musings, weird anger and resentment towards women in general and obsessive behaviour over really small points of contention. (There were also stalking issues, to the point where the pastors in my church had lookouts to stop him from approaching me in service whenever he decided to “pop by” and “give a word” about all the “Jezebels”. He never wanted to speak to men either, only women, and could be very harrassing. The men who talked with him always tried to pray with him and welcome him, but with reasonable boundaries. He refused and still tried to speak with me, or a couple of other women that he was also fixated on.) I guess, reading these emails, I’m getting a very familliar sense. I am not an expert, but I would put money on this CM guy having mental illness. I don’t have any experience with CM, but it seems like there will always be a few nutters that slip through the cracks. CM’s responsibility then would be to tighten up security and blocking mechanisms.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Speaking of which:
“A Female-Friendly Cafe Might Replace the Shuttered North Carolina Coffee Shop Run by Misogynists”
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/news/a47388/waking-life-coffee-shop-shut-down-amid-controversy/
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@ Ken P.:
That is a scream!
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dee wrote:
Dee, I did not mean to indicate you would think that. Only making a rather general statement of my opinion having been a rather serious user. Thanks!
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Daisy wrote:
Definitely true. I could name names ~~ men in my neck of the woods.
Daisy wrote:
Jesus remained single. I’d say he counted ~~ not simply because he was a man, either! Piper et al focus on trivial personal interpretations and completely miss the crucial things. They even stress certain things Paul said and completely ignore other things he said in order to drive home their doctrines.
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Josh wrote:
The sad thing is that some of my time on dating sites was roughly 7 – 10 years ago, before the rise of the picture-based dating apps, where you vote on a photo.
I joined a few dating sites, was inactive on them, didn’t delete one until a few years later, then rejoined one or two. I do visit one every so often. I’m not really using any at this time. I haven’t been replying to messages from guys.
But even before the rise of the picture based dating apps, a lot of men were ignoring what women said on their profiles and just going by the photos.
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Daisy wrote:
I do not disagree.
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Daisy wrote:
In many cases, this is probably true.
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I’m totally using this for my fantasy fanfic, “Complementarians of Gor.”
(Two people will get this.)
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Another red flag/fire alarm, “Women are separated from God.”
Where did Joe get that one?
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So much has been said already, I don’t know what more I can add….except, how about some instruction from Lori Alexander’s blog, “Always Learning.” When I want some Patriarchal entertainment, I go to her blog. Here’s an article entitled, “Let Him Lead You Courageously.” But the real hoot is in the comment section. You can find lots of similar articles like this one on her blog all making us of, as Gram likes to say, the “clobber” verses.
http://lorialexander.blogspot.com/2015/10/let-him-lead-you-courageously.html
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@ Darlene:
I would love to comment on that one, but :
“Mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them.” {Romans 16:17} All comments WILL be moderated before being published. Thank you for your patience.
I doubt if my comments would make it through moderation. (Smirk)
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If the ‘complement’ of wifely submission is husbandly love, if that is where a first date will lead if it goes on to end up in marriage, then surely if a woman says ‘no’ to a date, the loving thing to do is to except it? This is the negation of any idea of male entitlement. Start how you mean to go on.
A marriage is freely entered into by both parties, and rumour has it that in some circumstances they may even have fallen in love with each other! You cannot compel anyone to love you (in this sense). You can ask for a date, but asking by its very nature entails the right to say no. I don’t think I ever asked my wife for a date, we drifted into going out with each other. It just kind of happened. Didn’t read any evangelical books on it either! (I wasn’t alone in this either.)
In my day …. the advice was not to pair off too quickly but to get to know a variety of ‘potential others’ in a group setting. Get to know girls in general rather than one specific specimin. As far as it goes, I think this was good advice. It pre-dates the internet (I’m not divulging by how long!), but I wonder if the answer to the potential for abuse on dating sites is to try to enable singles to meet each other as part of normal church life. Do something upstream. The church is not a dating agency, but maybe it lets singles down in this regard?
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Lydia wrote:
I think this is a wider phenomenon than just with in comp culture, although you see it to an extreme degree there. I think throughout history there have always been women seeking to be the power behind the throne, simply because there was no throne for them. So any strong woman with leadership gifts, drive, energy and vision, in any field, would not be able to operate using those gifts because it wasn’t ladylike. Instead women would try and attach themselves to powerful men to give themselves an arena to express their personality. Look at Eleanor of Aquitaine – married to Louis VII, who was a bit of a wet lettuce, so she annulled him and set her sights on Henry II of England, where she then schemed and wheeled and dealed for the rest of her life. Or Eleanor Roosevelt – you’ll know all about her.
So that’s why you get the stereotypical managing, organising, busy pastor’s wife; she’s actually functioning as a highly effective Associate pastor, but can’t be recognised as such. I think the comp wives are just another, more extreme manifestation of this structural sexism, in a situation where the sexism is more extreme.
The downside is that some strong, visionary gifted women who try to operate as wives of someone can also get twisted up by the injustice of it all and become manipulative and destructive.
Or, as Annie Lennox more lyrically said:
Now, there was a time,
when they used to say,
that behind ev’ry great man,
there had to be a great woman.
But oh, in these times of change,
you know that it’s no longer true.
So we’re comin’ out of the kitchen,
’cause there’s something we forgot to say to you.
We say, Sisters are doin’ it for themselves
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Daisy wrote:
Now where did he learn that?
Maybe from his YRR pastor who told the search committee that he wasn’t a Calvinist?
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Lydia wrote:
Doesn’t it mean that her husband must reign supreme? That IS the impression she is leaving when she writes such a sentence for anyone who reads it. My guess, though, is that she would deny THAT meaning and claim that it means the husband will lay down is life for his wife as Christ did for the Church.
Besides, our risen Lord reigns supreme(.) Husbands and wives don’t add or subtract to this by having roles made up by CBMW that are somehow to bear witness to His supremecy. Jesus left us with the instructions of loving one another to show we are his disciples, not wife submit to your husband to show you are my disciples.
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@ Lydia:
@ Sarah Fegredo:
Precisely. But why would anyone want to rob the rebbetzin of her position and who would want to rob the community of the good she provides for them all? I don’t buy into the idea that this is all manipulation nor the idea that that it must be stamped out of existence. Using the rebbetzin in the iconic sense of having a wider application in society.
It is a temptation to resent that mode of gender role functioning if one such as I have had to go fight all the battles for herself, but resentment is not a good enough reason to adopt some comprehensive and generic disavowal of a life style that can work quite well for a lot of people.
If you look at some old edition of that how to dress for success book you will note that lots of rules were suggested but then there was the section that said that ‘in the south’ you will find women CEOs and owners who inherited the business from husband or father and who still look and act like we would today denigrate as phony and manipulative and which some would object to based on how traditionally feminine some of these women were dressing at work. Those women were not manipulated or persecuted. They were capable and ran the business well, but they sure looked ‘gender role’ on the surface. And they did get where they were by being in a ‘gender role’ (daughter or wife) situation with either (pattern A) some strong man who passed the business on to them or else (pattern B) some semi-incompetent man who needed them to hold it all together. Think Susanna Wesley for an example of the latter.
IMO, this may be one reason that there has been a female backlash to some of the stated social and political goals which can be loosely associated with the ‘women’s movement.’ By backlash remember that the proposed constitutional amendment did not get ratified. People do not want to give up their power, and some women would be giving up their designated (not manipulated) power by hurling themselves into the fracas of ‘each for himself and devil take the hindmost. ‘ I am firmly in the position that we need all sorts of opportunities for all people-not just women-and we need to hesitate before deciding that ‘I did it my way’ is the only correct and just and god-pleasing way to function.
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Whoa, good for her and the other women who have come forward!!!! The bottom line is when news of harassment rape, sexual misconduct on womenchildren and men surface we as brothers and sisters need to stand by the victims and hold perpetrators accountable. We need to even stand against those who would provide protection and harboring of perpetrators. I’m sorry but the victimized need to come first and then perpetrators need consequences followed by help when they chose to acknowledge their offenses I have come to realize that some people just don’t want that help. Please pray for us today it’s going to be exciting and nerve racking as I move forward in what happened to my child. We will be meeting with our,attorney today and soon after it will all begin and as Dee works with us, this story will soon be told. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
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This guy is obviously full of himself and she can respond a few ways here. Personally I would just respond and piss him off. I know it sounds a bit childish but from what I can see he is acting like a manchild. So rather than have a debate I would find papers or positions that strong feminist have written about and I would fill his message box with as much feministic garb as I could. I would continue to respond not even reading his responses. Trust me, it would infuriate him and I have no doubt he would give up. Now if he blocked me well then the only response he would get is delete delete delete!!!!!if I were her I wouldn’t spend one second reading his ridiculous rants. He can’t do much accept block and message and hopefully she didn’t give any personal ways for him to contact her. This guy is a moron and a control freak. You get control freaks by taking control of how you respond and don’t give them Amy power it’s what they thrive off of.
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@ Daisy:
We have no idea who Joe is. If Linda identified herself as an egal in the profile then she was red meat to these types– no matter the age.
I said Joe “reminds” me of the cage stage YRR type.
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Daisy wrote:
They sound like first grade boys who think that all girls have cooties.
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Daisy wrote:
Maybe deep down, part of him realized that with his chauvinistic attitudes, he had no chance of getting a date by being honest.
Or, since marriage is held in such high esteem, and treated like the be-all-and-end-all of Christian existence, he might have figured that the end justifies the means. After all, what’s a little deception compared to the Greater Good of Matrimony (and finally not being looked at as a loser by fellow complementarian men)?
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marquis wrote:
Hope all goes well. Please tell your son he has a lot of supporters here.
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@ dee:
That’s great. We went through Granville County DSS and have had a wonderful experience. Some of our friends in WC went through Lutheran Family Services.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Salvation by Marriage Alone.
Once you have A Wife(TM), you are finally allowed to sit with the grown-ups at the grown-ups’ table.
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marquis wrote:
So let’s see if we can get him to scream until his Manly face turns purple and he poops his Manly diapers.
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Christina wrote:
By the same token, a woman who refuses a “courtesy date” encourages other women to have the confidence to listen to their gut reaction.
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@ marquis:
May God bless your family, your son in particular, with the strength and focus that you need.
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@ Will M:
That article made me very sad. Sad to know how readily people, male and female, accept what they are told without investigating it: 1. for its Biblical accuracy (in the context of the whole Scripture) and 2. for its historical integrity (has this been the traditional, orthodox teaching of the church).
So many young, well meaning Bible students/disciples and followers buy-in wholesale to what the trendy-leader-du-jour tells them because the leader is thought to speak “ex cathedra,” or at least as close to it as possible in a Protestant setting.
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okrapod wrote:
My mom and most of my aunts operated in this paradigm. Mainly because both parents insisted on college education for both genders. Even my grandmother who was considered iconoclastic for her time with two college degrees and not marrying until 27.
However, they never considered their choices should be taught as spiritual roles. That would have been unthinkable. An invasion of freedom of conscience.
And that is really what we are talking about even if it gets muddled in the discussion.
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Thank you all for your amazing support and prayers.Nancy2 wrote:
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@ okrapod:
I like the image of the rebbetzim. Definitely the Christian life is not about “doing it my way.” Nor is it about doing it only one particular way, IMO. So it would be wrong, again IMO, for *any* to say that *all* *must* do it only *one* way in order to be Biblical. There is certainly a false pride in “doing it myself” just as there is a false pride in “I will do it all for you.”
People are different, so any combination of people is going to look different, contrary to what the Pipers and Grudems may say. Or what the radical feminists might say. IIRC, that is what the backlash from women was about to aspects of Second Wave feminism. The implicit and sometimes explicit idea that only a certain kind of woman is a real woman–and that is a professional working woman–and the notion that men are basically beastly misogynists. Both of those viewpoints did not respect individual differences and made blanket judgments in much the same way that the Patriarchalists do. How great would it be if everyone brought their strengths to relationships for the benefit of others?
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…Wut?
My cousin met a guy online, I’m pretty sure on CM. He stole $3000 from my grandmother and roped my cousin into helping him. (And yes, it’s her fault that she helped him. I’m not saying any of this to absolve her of responsibility. Unfortunately her background is really troubled so it’s just a bad situation all around.)
I’m signed up with eHarmony at the moment and thankfully haven’t any of these communicating-with-fruitcakes experiences yet. I’ve definitely seen a few profiles that were obvious fruitcakes but I didn’t message those people. I block (or at least don’t message) anyone who has complementarian codewords (like “servant leader”) in their profile. Not all of those people looked like outright fruitcakes, but I’m decidedly not looking for someone who sees me as unequal in the relationship like that so sorry, no dice, comp guys. You might be perfectly nice people but it just doesn’t work with my core beliefs.
And yeah, telling a woman to give a guy a “courtesy date” just because he asked, is pretty much the same as telling her that she’s obligated say yes to any guy who asks her out.
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Hester wrote:
And then there is the idea that she owes him *ahem* if he buys her a hamburger?
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okrapod wrote:
That is just such a romantic thought … 🙂
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okrapod wrote:
What if it is a burger from 5 Guys.:)
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Gram3 wrote:
I would suggest that if a woman feels she owes a man a “courtesy ” date, the date should be chaperoned by the woman’s father, or another “Biblical Man” in her life such as a brother, an uncle, or her pastor. Said chaperone should bring a shotgun and dominate the conversation by talking about how special the woman is and what a ridiculously hefty bride price she should bring! Blech.
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Sorry to place this off-topic post, but I just wanted to thank everyone for their prayers during my recent surgery. Your prayers and the prayers of many others were answered! I am recovering very well and happy to report that the cancer was confined to the uterus, I had a complete hysterectomy and the removed lymph nodes showed no further spread. I did not need the bowel resection, so my recovery has been very remarkable so far. Thanks, again, God is good! Marie
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Nancy2 wrote:
Good idea Nancy2
Cause basically Colin Hansen is saying that women aren’t allowed to have deal breakers. Being female means having no boundaries of her own. But, of course, all these men want pristine virgins when they marry. So obviously someone else is going to have to guard the patriarchy approved boundaries for women.
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@ Marie:
I shall put tis good news at the top of the blog today! Praise God!
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@ Marie:
Praise God, Marie. Thanks for letting us know.
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@ Burwell Stark:
One of these days we should meet up!
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@ Through a glass darkly:
Well said!
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Zla’od wrote:
This has play!
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Sarah K wrote:
I agree with you on this.
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@ Daisy:
That is one funny video.
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Ken wrote:
(Point 1.)
A woman is free to turn down a man for any reason should he ask her for a date. That you seem to think a man entitled to a date regardless of the reason does hint of a male entitlement attitude.
It’s not my duty as a woman to stroke the male ego or make them feel good about themselves, but lots of them, especially Christian gender complementarians, act as though that is one of a woman’s only purposes in life – it is condescending.
Men need to be taught to handle rejection well. We now have 2 – 3 very public cases (two in the USA, one in UK I think it was) of young male virgins who killed wome (or in the UK case, tried to) because they felt entitled to female company / sex / dating could not hit it off with women.
Nobody likes to be rejected. Dating is not easy for men or for women – another point lost on a lot of men (especially some gender comps and secular MRA groups).
They think dating is easy peasy for women. It’s not. Yet, most women manage not to stalk or kill people who turn them down for relationships and dates – unlike most men in real life or these dating sites who get nasty or bonkers if a woman politely turns them down.
(Point 2.)
No, churches do not help singles marry, leaving us to go to night clubs or use dating sites, places which are filled with weirdos or stalkers.
Could churches act as vehicles to help marriage minded singles get married (eg, by fixing up willing singles, and holding more social events for singles to meet)?
Yes, but many American churches balk at this, their standard reply: “But church is only for worship, nothing else, and fixing up singles would turn church into a meat market!!”
(All of this is actually a lie, because churches often meet the needs of married couples who have children)
So, I as a single, have to hope on bumping into a normal guy by chance, or join dating sites and put up with what Linda did with Joe on Christian Mingle.
Churches are of no practical help to adult singles in helping us get married.
Churches are of no help in what would you term it, philosophical/ theoretical help, because they frequently tell marriage-desiring singles stuff promised to keep us single such as,
“Don’t look for a spouse, don’t date! Just trust the Lord! Be content in Jesus! Be content in your singleness, and that is when you will meet Mr or Ms Right.”
Somehow, magically, a spouse will appear according to this superstitious outlook, but this approach does not work for most singles.
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__
dee wrote:
(tears)
I shall toast a bag of Cheetoes, in your honor!
ATB
Sopy
—
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@ lydia:
Yeah, that was something else I thought of last night but didn’t comment on.
I did wonder if Linda mentioned on her profile if she is of egal leanings, or rejects gender comp.
Doing so could be like waving a red flag in front of a bull, to some gender comp men who are itching to pick a fight, or who take it as a personal insult if they find a woman who doesn’t share those views.
On the other hand, as I was saying above, most men don’t even bother to read a woman’s profile anyway – they only care about your profile photos, something I find very demeaning and sexist.
They don’t care about me as a person or my hobbies or opinions, only what I looked like. -That was my experience on dating sites.
I could tell from the questions and comments men would send me that they weren’t bothering to read my profile information.
I would state up front what my favorite movies were or what have you, and the first question they’d send me in private was “So what is your favorite movie?”
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Hester wrote:
And remember, in Christianese Courtship(TM), even just saying “Hi!” is a commitment to marry or be a Defrauder(TM).
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
This sounds a little similar to something Ken was saying above in his post – that ultimately, how a guy treats a woman or handles rejection in dating doesn’t really matter, that a woman should go ahead and say Yes to every date she’s asked out on because surely the guy has a great motive – to marry her and serve her in marriage.
One other thing I want to say about that: some men out there are deceivers.
I’ve already cited examples of guys who flat out lied to women on Christian dating sites, and one guy who was such a convincing Christian online, Christian women met him for dates via a Christian dating site, and he raped them.
My safety and well-being as a woman -a human being- is a billion times more important than getting married, sparing a man’s ego, or sparing a man’s feelings, or living up to some stupid gender role rules and expectations cooked up by John Piper, Wayne Grudem, or Mark Driscoll.
I’m not going to put myself in a position to be verbally abused, stalked, physically harmed or sexually assaulted, and all to spare the feelings of some chump with a fragile ego on a dating site.
And the conflicting message here – I thought Biblical Men, according to CBMW gender comp types, were supposed to be tough, He-Man types, so why would a woman turning them down for a date be so wounding?
I thought in this view, it is women who are the overly emotional, dainty little flowers who cannot cope?
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dee wrote:
Yes, it is. But it is obviously fake. That woman’s shirt is waaayyyy to tight for her to be a REAL Westboro baptist girl!
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Gram3 wrote:
Indeed! Collin Hansen’s name first popped onto the New Calvinist screen in 2006 when he was an associate editor at Christianity Today and posted an article entitled “Young, Restless, Reformed: Calvinism is making a comeback—and shaking up the church.” That was my first glimpse inside the New Calvinist movement. The article was fairly unbiased – Hansen was just reporting what he observed. With his name now on the radar and a YRR market eager to buy, he followed in 2008 with his book “Young, Restless, Reformed: A Journalist’s Journey with the New Calvinists.” At that point, he appeared to have been drawn into the movement lock, stock & barrel … as Dee notes, he eventually ended up on staff at The Gospel Coalition (= The Calvinist Coalition). He is definitely mingling with the reformed who’s who now … and with that comes a macho, authoritarian view of women as subordinate.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, this is actually a thing with some Christians!
I read a book over a year ago by Christian authors who are both single. They had a couple of chapters where they offered short reviews of views about adult singleness they found in books by Christian authors.
One of the books they discussed actually had these analogies and metaphors, like one book they discussed said being single is like standing out in a long hallway, at a buffet line, where you have to stand. But the married couples get to dine inside, seated at nice tables.
(I think this book was saying that the singles must serve the marrieds as waiters, bring them food and drink refills?)
Either that analogy or another one they brought up they found explained to singles that it is their duty, so long as they are single, to wait hand and foot on married couples, especially on married couples who have children.
Nothing is addressed in these books to marrieds telling married to be sure to assist the childless, adult singles in their lives.
It’s always this one-way thing, where singles are told their only purpose is to provide free baby sitting and other services to married couples.
Singles exist to prop up and support the nuclear families, is what these Christian books teach.
The one with the dining analogy, IIRC, ends by telling singles something like, “And when you marry, you can leave the long hallway and be seated at a table inside.”
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Through a glass darkly wrote:
Excellent point.
Gavin DeBecker gets into this in his book “The Gift of Fear.”Society often encourages women to stuff their impulses and intuition down, and all to spare the feelings of a man they are suspicious of.
Some women end up getting assaulted because women are taught to ignore their gut and to place a man’s ego and feelings above her own safety.
Then some Christians come along and pour this stuff on ten times thicker, and pressure Christian women with it even more, under Gender Comp and Biblical Gender Roles teachings.
Women are set up to be easy targets or willing victims in these teachings and values.
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Daisy wrote:
A lot (not all) of Independant Fundamental Baptists believe that a man is not an adult until he marries. They also believe that women were made to serve and obey men.
I have wondered if this “Joe” is an IFB.
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Men like Colin Hansen don’t get how dangerous going out and dating can be for women.
The following link is sort of relevant to the conversation.
Especially if rapists are using Christian dating sites to find fresh meat.
http://imgur.com/gallery/Pijjv
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@ Hester:
Kudos to you if you’re getting any matches on eHarmony. I was on there for I don’t remember how long a few years I guess?
And their system kept claiming there were no matches for me, even when I widened my criteria from my city, to my state, to the entire USA, to planet Earth, to the solar system.
They did send me a piddling number of matches my first paid portion that I was signed up for, and then it came to a halt when I went back to being a non-paid member.
I kept seeing a lot of raunch and inappropriate jokes in Christian men’s profiles on eHarmony and other dating sites I tried.
My jaw hit the floor in shock at what some Christian guys think is acceptable to say on a profile page or in their first few private notes to me.
Even men in their 40s and 50s were writing juvenile bathroom humor filth on their profiles. I turned all those guys down.
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@ Marie:
I hope you continue to recover well.
Also, hugs for the other lady up thread who is having problems of her own.
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I wonder if ChristianMingle has a check-box on their profile form for “New Calvinist”? They should, because all these YRR folks are going to view women through a subordinate lens … and good reason for young women looking for dates to steer clear. With New Calvinism experiencing a tremendous growth and attraction of 20s-40s, I would suspect a sizable percentage of CM’s young men would be reformed, having an un-Biblical position on gender roles in the Body of Christ.
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Marie wrote:
Great news!
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@ Marie:
Super news! Thank you for letting us know.
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Mara wrote:
Some may.
As a 40 something pristine virgin, I can tell you that some Christian men do not want a virgin, which is also a bummer.
A lot of them state on certain Christian dating sites that they want a woman who has “sexual experience.” Which counts me out. (I was even noticing this back when I was on these sites in my mid 30s.)
I don’t know how so-called Christian men (assuming they take the Bible and Christian ethics seriously) expect a never-married Christian woman (who has taken the Bible and sexual ethics seriously) to have sexual experience.
I’m being penalized by these men for actually having followed the Christian faith in the area of sexual morality… and I don’t get that at all.
I was engaged, so I’ve been in a long term, serious relationship, but I told my ex there would be no nooky, so there was no nooky.
So I don’t know if they are using the “prefer someone with sexual experience” to weed out women who’ve never been in a serious relationship or what the deal is.
Maybe in the olden days, men wanted to date or marry virgins, but that is no longer the case. There are even secular editorials warning men to avoid virgins, to only date/ marry non-virgins.
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Max wrote:
I asked in a post earlier in this thread what purpose the equally yoked teaching really serves, when I think a lot of Non-Christian men might make better, kinder, more respectful dates and spouses than the Christian guys I’m seeing on dating sites or reading about in the papers?
Some Christians still demand that singles follow the “equally yoked” teaching, however.
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Way off the topic, if I EVER was forced to get married again, literally forced ( something has to happen to the present Mrs KD and she’s going to outlive me) but if a shotgun is involved, and I got to, literally got to, I’d fly to Vegas and get Elvis to do the ceremony….
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Daisy wrote:
I strongly disagree.
Porn today is not about “guy and gal both enjoy sleeping together, explicit video is taken.” More than 80% of popular porn is violent: “Guy/ multiple guys wrecks gal, hurts gal, humiliates gal.” The average porn actress nowadays allegedly last only 3 months in the industry before realizing that she did not just happen to meet the wrong directors who forced her into worse things than she agreed to – it really is an abusive industry, and she won’t do it any longer. Ex-porn actresses, so say anti-porn activists, are more likely to have PTSD than war vets.
A man who voluntarily looks at porn is callous towards women. He is turned on by cruelty towards women. What man can possibly be a worse marriage partner that a man who turned on by violence towards women? Perhaps the answer is “a complementarian man who is violent towards women. Complementarianism adds “but God say you should obey me” entitlement to his violent heart.
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The complementarian agenda is big in organizations like Cru. It’s grown a lot. I remember being on a Cru retreat to Lacrosse, Wisconsin and being in the guys time. Guys were asking questions about having their girlfriends in college submit to them in preparation of marriage. Totally shocked me. I have more concerns about this today then back then, because well…I was a kool aid drinker.
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okrapod wrote:
A woman rejects a guy who ask her for a date: She is rude.
A woman say yes to a date, even when she does not want to: She is not assertive enough.
Woman say no to sex: She is a prude.
Woman say yes to sex: She is a slut.
Woman get raped on a date: She must have led him on. Why did she date him at all?
Woman get pregnant: She is an idiot. Don’t she know about birth control?
Woman uses birth control pills even though she is not married: She is a slut.
Woman gets abortion: She is a murderer.
Woman has an out-of wedlock baby: She destroys the fabric of society.
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Linda to Joe Response
Linda’s response to Joe (identified as paragraph 2) is over the top, way off base and inappropriate. The purpose of Christian dating sites are for dating and not for trying to convince the other person their views are incorrect. Linda then added insult with the arrogant phrase “if you are truly seeking.” Linda should have simply ended her response after the second sentence. Any response from Joe should have been deleted and not read.
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Daisy wrote:
If you think of it as wisdom rather than as a rule, it might make more sense. The idea is that two people who have totally different ultimates are likely to pull in different directions which, in the ox analogy, means that neither will accomplish their purpose of pulling the cart or plow forward. Instead of helping one another, they will hinder one another. If two people have Christ as their ultimate, then they should pull together in pursuit of the same thing. Obviously, if neither one is particularly strongly convinced of their personal ultimate, then they can make a partnership work on other grounds.
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Joe2 wrote:
In what way was her response any of those things? Was she not free to respond as she deemed appropriate?
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Joe2 wrote:
You might be right. But, we don’t know what else Joe said in his first post to Linda. Dee did say that she had to chop off part of it to remove identifiers. Linda may have been way off base, or she may have simply been defending her beliefs.
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@ Daisy:
That’s unfortunate. 🙁 I got plenty of matches for quite a while, though it does eventually become more infrequent because there’s only a finite number of people in a given area, I guess. (Though I didn’t message all of them, obviously.) But it does still send me people even now. I don’t get a whole lot of messages but I figure having it available is better than nothing.
Thankfully I haven’t seen the raunchy jokes/toilet humor thing at all. There have been a few odd things but they were more amusing than disturbing/gross like that. My favorite was the violinist whose entire profile was one long philosophical rambling about…well, actually I still don’t really even know what it was about. It was very weird.
I did go on one date with a guy who seemed like a nice enough person, but he could only talk in Christianese, and church/religion/my personal relationship with Jesus was the ONLY thing he wanted to talk about. Then he asked me in an email after one lunch meetup what I thought of him in terms of what I want in my future husband. I told him I didn’t know him well enough to answer that question and it petered out after that (obviously).
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Sometimes I wonder whether I’m being overly suspicious to not even talk to a guy on eHarmony who says he’s looking for a “Proverbs 31 woman” or something like that. Then I read posts like this one and realize, no, I’m probably not.
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@ Nancy2:
She said she read over his introduction. Maybe she did not realize at first what his views on patriarchy were. Lots of women in my most recent former church have no idea whatsoever what lies behind the teaching they are given. Regardless, I think Linda is free to respond with her beliefs and why she thinks that she and Joe are incompatible. It’s a lot kinder to be honest when your objection is grounded in core beliefs than to lead someone on, IMO. And just maybe she might get him to think about some things which he has not heard before. That happened with me with a few people at said most recent former church. That said, I’ve never participated in an online dating “service” before and do not know the unwritten rules. Obviously. 🙂
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Gram3 wrote:
Nancy2 wrote:
She did respond as appropriate when she wrote, “I don’t think we are compatible” and “Peace to you and good luck in your search!” Nothing further needs to be written. Linda doesn’t need to defend her beliefs or criticize Joe’s beliefs.
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I met my wife and got married the old fashioned way – without the presence of the internet, so I cannot identify by experience.
This guy is clearly disturbed. A lot of disturbed people have strong feelings about spiritual issues – all over the map.
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I have heard more than one young person say that the Christian dating scene has become very weird. Back in the old days, we could go out for a Coke and possibly a movie and no big deal. I never, ever heard of DTR discussions until the last ten years. Now, it seems that guys are reticent to even ask a girl out because it is freighted with a presumption of marriage on her part. Or in one tragic/comic case I observed a few years ago, it was the guy who thought he was (literally in the Biden sense) God’s gift to the girl. No, really, I am not kidding. It’s almost like the polar opposite extreme to the secular culture’s presumption of intimacy possibly followed by a Coke.
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@ Joe2:
What about Joe’s 4 unanswered messages to Linda? Don’t you think they were off base and over the top?
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Joe2 wrote:
That is your opinion, but obviously it was not Linda’s opinion, and she is the one with a stake of sorts. Perhaps she thought she did need to defend her beliefs–Galatians 5:1–and defense of her beliefs does not mean that she was criticizing Joe’s beliefs. Rebutting beliefs is not the same thing as a personal criticism, and, after all, she could have said he is an obnoxious jerk which would have been either prophetic or a statement of experience. If she had pursued further contact knowing of their incompatibility (per Collin Hansen’s ethic), she would have been deceitful. Referring him to scholarly articles that might inform his beliefs is only offensive to very insecure individuals, and he certainly seems to fit that bill.
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As to Collin Hansen, here is another example of a person saying something that makes them sound like someone has removed their brain from their head, but they are still talking.
You only reach opinions like that by thinking about something too much and buying into a community as a matter of first priority.
Things that are absurd on their face.
Then, your opinions are not so much influenced by logic, as by the group’s position.
Examples:
1) A girl should go out with a man who asks as a courtesy.
2) A person cannot leave a church. If there is a discipline proceeding going on, the person must stay. So, the person is not allowed to leave, and then he is excommunicated, so he can be told to leave. A co-elder at my church remarked that this sounds like, “You are not breaking up with me. I am breaking up with you.”
3) Because Paul wrote in I Tim 3 that the elders of church should be men…, the church should add a list of 100 additional things that women cannot do.
4) When Jesus first spoke in the synagogue, he was actually advocating for a socialist economic society. That is the great salvation that he offers.
5) Jesus fed the 5000 because the boy who willingly surrendered his meager lunch of loves and fish actually encouraged the others in attendance to share their lunches which they had brought.
6) Eating cottage cheese causes weight gain. Haven’t you notice only obese people eat that.
7) I am going to marry that person, warts and all, and then after we’re married, I will cause that person to change to be the person I really want.
8) Drinking will help my depression.
9) Communism is really benevolent and works, but so far the right people haven’t been in charge whenever it’s been tried.
10) The way to end discrimination on the basis of race is to sanction discrimination on the basis of race.
11) I am with the government and I am here to help.
12) I will respect you in the morning.
13) But the real estate agent told me …
Etc.
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@ Gram3:
I’ve seen testimonies by Christian ladies I found very interesting, ladies who said they are on husband #2 – (marriage 1 ended in divorce).
They said husband 2 is an atheist (or some other type of Non Christian) and that husband 2 treats them far, far better than husband 1 (with Husband #1 having been a church going, professing Christian) ever did.
Some of these women I’ve seen who talk about this online say their Christian husband was verbally or physically abusive to them, but their Non-Christian spouse is a 180 opposite, he treats them with respect, and they are far more happy in marriage 2 with the atheist than they were married to the Christian.
I think there is something going on there with that.
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This is one of the best things I have ever read about singleness in my entire life, and this is just as pertinent to Christians as it is to Non-Christians:
All dating advice is as terrible as the people who give it by Oliver Burkeman
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/oliver-burkeman-column/2015/feb/11/all-dating-advice-is-as-terrible-as-the-people-who-give-it
This Burkeman guy should have a statue erected in his honor for having written that page.
It should be required reading – to the congregation – from the pulpit after every “How to have a great marriage sermon” that Reformed, Baptist, and evangelical preachers like to give every four weeks.
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Gram3 wrote:
I hear about it all the time. It is downright absurd. However, I honestly think the whole “I kissed dating goodbye” mindset became more ingrained than we think and that has serious ramifications. Now it seems a basic date has to mean more than it should. People are not just having fun and enjoying themselves. I can remember hating sports events but then had a blast dating a guy in Dallas who had season tickets to the Cowboys. He simply talked me into going and checking it out. Who knew? :o)
Even if people are not compatible, you can make some life long friends in the mix of it all. Have people forgotten how to be friends? This might be the case as gender roles teaching has permeated so much of evangelicalism. Which is why I honestly cannot recommend young women meeting a guy at church.
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Gram3 wrote:
I sort of touched on this topic in my post higher above Joe2’s here,
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/10/07/christianmingle-where-egalitarian-linda-met-patriarchal-joe-and-couldnt-get-rid-of-him/comment-page-1/#comment-223026
In my time on dating sites, I learned not to get into long winded or knock down, drag out fights about theology.
However, I sometimes came across men who got their underwear in a twist when I politely and briefly just let them know on these dating sites, after having glanced at their profile and saw what they believed, I would not feel comfortable dating a guy from their theological bent or denomination.
I do agree with Joe2 to a degree that dating sites are not about debating theology, that’s not their purpose. Of course, Linda is a 50-something adult and can choose to behave however she wants.
I just learned not to get into big debates with men over stuff like that on dating sites, or to explain why I felt their beliefs were wrong to them, because if you did not keep it short and sweet with them…
The nuts or rude ones would want to message you back and fight with you all day long about this stuff.
I’ve disagreed with Joe2 on a few topics before on older threads, but on this topic, I agree partially with some of what he was saying. I think where I get some of where he’s coming from on this.
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@ Hester:
I wish I had not come across the deviants and raunchy guys on there, and the ones who stated they preferred women who have “sexual experience.” If only I could take my brain out and wash it in Lysol.
One thing I find strange in light of the Ashley Madison hack. It came out that there were tons more men on AM than ladies.
After my time on eHarmony, I read some articles about them. I think I read that eHarmony had way more women than men? (At least several years ago when I was reading all this).
Or, I’m sorry. I may be getting mixed up. I did read something about gender imbalances or what not about eH. Like, they do have an even split, but the guys who own eH punish women on there – they only drip out a small number of male matches.
Like, women will get one male match every ten years, but the site will send every man on there one million lady matches per day, or something. I read they are set up to favor males.
You said,
HUG and I have had similar experiences we’ve talked about on TWW – on dating sites, and I’ve come across this on forums for adult Christian singles.
There are some single men and woman who are super spiritual. Every single conversation has to be about Jesus or the Bible with these guys. I feel uncomfortable around those types of Christians and would rather not date them.
The men like that tend to want to date clones of women who look like Angelina Jolie but with the spiritual life of Mother Theresa, or the ladies want a guy who looks like Brad Pitt but who is a spiritual Billy Graham.
BTW, one book I read that said that Christians who only talk about Bible/ Jesus stuff on dates often use that religious talk to hide behind, as a cover. They may be insecure.
It may be they just don’t know what else to talk about, or they’re afraid of bringing up a topic you find boring or stupid.
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Daisy wrote:
No, I don’t think that is their purpose, either. I don’t think people should troll sites for other purposes regardless of POV. However, it seems that somehow Joe made it known that he has strong views in this area. I honestly cannot see how Linda is wrong or inappropriate for saying that those differences make all the difference or for suggesting further reading for Joe’s edification. I do not think that it is appropriate second-guess Linda’s reasons when she was the one involved, just like I usually get in trouble for saying that people should not come to TWW complaining about the topics discussed here. Basically, I think Joe2 is mistaken to assume that a woman is out of line for defending her beliefs against the accusations by those of Joe’s persuasion who believe that women are deceived who do not agree with them. It, IMO, is a rancid form of presuppositionalism.
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I did not last long on CM. There was nothing remotely “Christian” about it and the matches were horrible. It felt as secular as anything else I tried.
eHarmony is secular, but the match system allowed me to do a very good job of filtering down to Christian women who had similar values to me.
Not that I’m trying to be a salesperson for eHarmony, but it is where I met my wife 🙂 I didn’t last a month on CM I was so disgusted.
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Joe2 wrote:
I actually pretty much agree with you on this, Joe2. I explained why above. (My reasoning may be a little different from yours, though.)
OTOH, as I’ve also mentioned, a lot of ladies, even if you do let the guy down short, sweet, and polite (as you are advocating they do), the flakes, creeps, nuts, or argumentative ones will write back all whiny and demanding.
I used to give men the polite, short brush off if I was not interested in them, and they would still write back and insult me, or be like, “But Whyyyyyy? Whyyyyy won’t you even give me a chance???? Whyyyy?”
(Other single women I’ve seen on other sites have said they have experienced that as well.)
When you’re a woman on a dating site, you cannot win with some guys, no matter what you do or how you reply to them.
Even totally ignoring a guy’s wink or message on a dating site can result in a nasty comment from them. They will write and tell you horrible stuff for not replying at all.
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Daisy wrote:
And in her book, “Predators,” Anna Salter shows that Christian women are often particularly targeted because of the pressure to “not offend.”
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Gram3 wrote:
Add to that are the series of blog posts I’ve seen churned out by some Christian groups (some may be the YRR type guys) the last few years telling single men to “be intentional” about dating.
To a point, I’m sympathetic with what they’re getting at, because a lot of young men today sort of keep young ladies hanging on.
These guys will pal around with a girl – do stuff that in past decades was considered dating – which strings the girl on (at least if the girl is confused about the man’s intent).
A lot of women (and teen girls) get confused by this. They cannot tell if the guy hanging out with them on casual get-togethers, or calling them on the phone to chat, has romantic intent and wants to be BF/GF, or marry some day, or if they are just buddies, or what.
So I do understand why some of these TGC guys and others are telling men in their blog posts to “intentionally date a woman,” or “date with intent,” but some of their advice pages about this issue are sprinkled with weird or sexist tips to men.
There seems to be this immense pressure to marry singles off, these groups teach singles to associate dating with Old Testament betrothal.
They seem to be teaching singles that if a guy takes a girl out for a Coke and a movie, they are now engaged and need to set a wedding date soon. This even seeps into singles in my age group (people over 35).
This sort of teaching paralyzes a lot of singles with fear or confusion.
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Gram3 wrote:
For all the ink that’s been slathered to paper and bytes to device screens about the awful and bad old days in the land of ago, we still a few things right.
We knew as individuals that we are not at the axis vector of the world and that others matter.
Grown people didn’t throw tantrums on airline flights, and grown people didn’t make too much of a coke and a movie. Sigh…
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Muff Potter wrote:
Well that pretty much sums it up.
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I don’t know if it was ever a part of purity culture or not, but I remember the odd teaching that a girl or woman ought to ‘practice’ submission to her boyfriend as preparation for marriage. It’s not quite the same idea as universal feminine deference, of the sort taught by the Bayly brothers or John Piper. However, I can see how either one would render Christian women more vulnerable than they might otherwise have been.
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@ Gram3:
I kind of get your perspective too, but I have a verbally abusive sister.
Joe the dating site guy in the OP in some ways resembles my sister.
I learned from reading a book by an expert on verbally abusive relationships that verbal abusers are irrational.
The author instructed victims of verbal abuse (like me, or wives) to stop trying to explain one’s self or position to an abuser, and stop trying to understand what the abuser is saying/writing.
She said, you will never understand them because they are irrational.
You explaining why you believe what you do is always going to fall on deaf ears with these types of people. They don’t really care why you believe what you do because they are looking for excuses to blow up at you.
If you are possibly dealing with a sane, rational, non-hostile person, I can maybe see the value in doing what Linda did.
However, to be safe and avoid this stuff, I’ve found it’s easier to either not reply to these guys at all, or keep the, “I’m sorry we’re not a match” replies very short, and don’t go into details or argue world views with them and explain why you think they are wrong.
I’ve stopped doing this stuff with my sister, too. Taking her on, explaining my reasoning, only prolongs her screaming matches.
I no longer try to justify myself or choices or views to my sister because it is pointless. I suspect it’s the same with the Joe’s of the world.
I do think there is a time and place to be bold, confront people (for years I was a codependent and kept my mouth shut), speak your views and defend them.
However, I also am coming to realize that dis-engaging can be the wiser course of action, if you may be dealing with a crack pot who has a temper problem.
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Daisy wrote:
Daisy, All this sounds so complicated. How can a guy keep one hanging on if one does not want to hang on? Why aren’t they dating other guys and considering them friends first?
Intentional dating? If I thought I had to have considered every date as a potential husband that would have taken a lot of the fun out of the whole experience and focused on all his faults and his on mine. Sheesh!
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Through a glass darkly wrote:
I can believe it.
Certain secular or Christian expectations for women and girls leave them easy prey for dishonest men or criminals.
I’ve only read a few sample chapters from the Salter book that were made available on a book site. What I read curled my hair.
I don’t know if I could make it through the whole book. I have thought of getting a copy and reading it eventually.
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Daisy wrote:
I thought Linda disengaged with her response. A rational person moves on. It is the internet for crying out loud. It is not like they work together. They don’t demand to know why or try to engage on her reasons.
This might have something to do with the lack of privacy, the fact that people are less reserved about their personal information and rise of social media.
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Lydia wrote:
I saw a good dating site commercial a few months ago that dealt with this a little.
The commercial showed a couple who met via an eHarmony type site, which is heavily marketed towards getting married soon. On this very first date, the guy was proposing marriage to the woman already. She looked terrified. (Or maybe the genders were reversed, I don’t remember)
Then they showed a couple who met on one of those casual hook up sites, and the guy meeting the lady for the first time, and he was already wanting to take her back to his place to do the horizontal rumba. The lady looked terrified.
About the Intentional Dating stuff. I’m not sure how to explain it. It may be easier to just give you some actual examples of pages that talk about it.
If you go to a search engine and look for the phrase “intentional dating” you’ll get several posts by Christians about it.
Here is one:
Intentional Dating
http://www.theporchdallas.com/how-to-date-intentionally/
There may be one or two good points on pages like that one (though I don’t agree with the “man is the leader” stuff), but Christians have managed to make dating so complicated, and that is reflected on that page.
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Daisy wrote:
I know. Both those lines were taken from an old Internet Monk comment thread about singles.
And the Singles can wait on YOU hand and foot.
And there’s a social pressure to NOT change, the same social pressure as in abusive hazing:
1) “I Finally Made It! Don’t You Dare Rock the Boat!”
2) “I didn’t have it easy. WHY SHOULD THEY?”
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Lydia wrote:
She did, but Joe turned out to be Crazy Stalker material.
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NJ wrote:
Does that include submission of both ends of her alimentary canal a la Mars Hill?
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@ Lydia:
I skimmed over message 2 at the top of this post (screen shot at the top of the page, Linda to Joe) a moment ago.
I can see where a person with a certain personality type, if receiving that response, would get agitated by it, and be tempted to fire back a response.
Which is exactly what Joe did. She was challenging his beliefs (albeit very politely), so he felt the need to defend his views.
I had a similar deal on a dating site with a guy from Denomination X who wanted to bicker with me all day about why I did not agree with Denom X or want to date guys from Denom X.
I refused to get sucked in or go into detail with him about why I did not dig Denom X, I did not tell him Demon X is wrong, I just said, “I disagree with X,” so he didn’t have much fodder to shoot back with and bicker over.
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Mara wrote:
Where there’s a watering hole of easy prey, the predators will swarm.
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Too many couples I know not only had an obligatory date, they ended up with an obligatory marriage, because their ‘leadership’ encouraged them to marry so-and-so. Right now, I can think of 4 couples right off the bat that I (sinfully, I guess) considered mismatched — they just didn’t seem to go together because the woman was a lot better looking than the guy. I had considered that kind of a sign of integrity on the girl’s part, that she wasn’t attracted only by looks. But all 4 of those couples are now divorced, with the same story. “We got married because pastor-leader-group told us we were right for each other, and that love would grow.” So now, looking back with plain glasses rather than the rose-colored ones I looked through 30 years ago, if the girl is drop-dead gorgeous and the guy is not (or vice-versa) I wonder if it’ll last. Not that I’d go to someone and say, “Hey, your boyfriend looks like he’s been chasing parked cars and you’re gorgeous — what’s up with that?” But it seems that in the real life, people are often matched up in many ways — intellect, social strata, grooming, appearance, taste. Maybe that doesn’t seem fair, but looking around, that’s what I see.
Now — the obligatory date might not be such a big deal IF these people didn’t see having a cup of coffee as a marriage proposal. If you could get past that idea, going out for a cup of coffee with someone you aren’t physically attracted to might end up as a nice friendship. Unless he’s Joe and you’re Linda.
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I wish I still had a post, lost it in a computer crash a few years ago, but my friend was on one of those sites and a guy’s profile was so ridiculous it was comical boarding on mentally ill. He was looking for a woman who was fit, fake or real breasts, perfect, either never married or only had a “biblical divorce” (that set off a bunch of comments), submitted to him, understood he was a leader, would make a powerful team, had to hate feminism (and described egalitarianism perfectly), felt they would take over the world for God – just him and whoever fit his crazy list of requirements – and on and on. Of course he wanted, like, ten kids with her and her to maintain a perfect body and work out all the time. I think we laughed about if for days. Beneficially, this was in his intro profile, so everyone was warned off before communicating with him. It just goes to show how many nut jobs there are out there. That said, a YRR pastor telling women to be courteous and go on a date without a modicum of caution is about the stupidest ass-vice I’ve read in a while, he isn’t a pastor in my view, not if he can’t think that one through first. He should be in Remedial Social Interactions 101 for incompetent pastors.
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Daisy wrote:
Because it’s scary. If just saying “Hi!” to someone means you ARE committed to marry her, you’re going to make damn sure she’s The One before you even say “Hi!”. You can see where that can lead.
And I was on the receiving end of that once. Around 45 years ago when I was attending Mass at the local Newman Center, I had the misfortune to cross paths with a young woman who was on the full rebound from her father’s death and was definitely NOT thinking straight. I said “Hi!”, she immediately glommed onto me like she was setting the date and picking the kids’ names. I had to run and hide for a couple months; I don’t know what happened to her. So I have SOME idea what Christian women are facing in a world of Salvation by Marriage Alone.
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@ Nickname:
I doubt that physical appearance had nearly as much to do with the marriage failures as the pastor-leader arranged marriage part!
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It’s perfectly normal to be slightly nervous when asking someone for a date, but it doesn’t require any “courage”- that’s absurd. This “courage” doesn’t entitle anyone to a reward. It’s hard to tell whether Collin Hansen is advocating that women are OBLIGATED to grant a first date out of courtesy; Anyway, such a view actually has a negative effect on both parties. If you’re a man in this environment, how do you know whether a woman really wants to spend time with you or just being polite? Seems like it would contribute to an awkward climate.
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@ NJ:
I’ve heard this a lot out on the internet (though not as much as some other things). Don’t remember the source though.
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@ Anonymous:
And its polar opposite corollary, the Fall story is actually about the great battle of the ages between Satanic Marxism and godly Hebraic homeschooling. (Real teaching from Vision Forum.)
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@ Marie:
So glad to hear this! Hope your recovery continues down this road.
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Hester wrote:
The same Vision Forum whose Commander Douggie ESQUIRE was keeboarping his Handmaid?
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Lydia wrote:
I used it as a screen which is different from a philosophy of dating. It saved me a lot of time and effort. Basically, if the character and funny/interesting/intelligent tests were not met, it would have been a waste of our time, so why do that? But maybe I was just lazy. I will say that Christian guys I knew who were *serious* were totally boring and intellectually shallow (not curious) or they were up-tight control freaks. And that is coming from someone whose bobbin is pretty tightly wound about certain things. If what I’ve observed with the young people were the dating environment when I was young, there is not a doubt in my mind that I would be single. It is way too complicated, and real-life marriage does not thrive under conditions where needless and pointless complications and externalities like CBMW & Co. are imposed.
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This sounds a bit like “Looking for Mr. Goodbar” in Christianese.
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@ Janey:
“Do women owe men a date?
I remember my mother teaching me to go out with nice boys who asked, at least once. But those were boys we knew, we knew their parents, we shopped at the same stores and rode the same bus.”
+++++++++++
What do you think now?
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By the way, let me clarify, I do not intend to suggest that Linda was like the character played by Diane Keaton, taking increasingly outlandish risks, I mean to suggest that the obviously clueless Collin is suggesting that Christian women ought to take such risks “One date out of courtesy”. I wonder if he’d suggest that to his daughter? Good gosh, what a piece of work! Joe reminds me something of the deranged character played by Tom Berringer in the movie “Looking for Mr. Goodbar”, the one who ultimately kills the poor heroine: he comes across as completely unhinged.
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Hester wrote:
Nothing about the Decepticons vs. Autobats? The serpent didn’t turn into a TransAm?
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The tv ads for Christian Mingle creep me out. People are not looking for a life partner or love or someone to have kids with. they are looking for someone to change the world for jesus.
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Daisy wrote:
Thank you, Daisy! Yep, no doubt there are flakes, creeps, nuts, etc. out there. If they write back all whiny and demanding, just put them on your “blocked list” and don’t respond. I’ve experienced something similar on a poplar auction site where potential bidders can ask questions. I don’t respond to any questions which I deem inappropriate and block the individual. Problem solved; no explanation is necessary.
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Ken wrote:
Go Dutch, I say. That way nobody expects anything from the other. That’s equality!
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Marie wrote:
May God bless you in your recovery.
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See the GRACE report on Bob Jones University, p. 276
http://www.sccadvasa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Final-Report.pdf
“an unwritten school tradition that obligates a girl to go on at least one ‘courtesy date’ when invited by a male student”
It’s explained further in a footnote.
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Daisy wrote:
… to a New Calvinist takes on a whole new meaning in that corner of Christendom. Much has been said on this and other blogs about male dominance/female subordination in the reformed ranks, rather than being “equal” before God.
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Jerome wrote:
Just awful. I don’t suppose there was an unwritten rule that guys had to ask out young women they weren’t interested in so that the young women didn’t feel bad. /sarc/
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@ Josh:
My straight Chrstian daughter, who happens to be attracted to men, signed up on Christian Mingle. She was already becoming discouraged (as most of the men seemed to be around my age) when CM suggested a likely match– another woman!
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Glad to hear the news, Marie!
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@ nmgirl:
“The tv ads for Christian Mingle creep me out. People are not looking for a life partner or love or someone to have kids with. they are looking for someone to change the world for jesus.”
+++++++++++++++++
I think they are in for a surprise.
it’s a noble aspiration,….. but a very romantic one.
‘changing the world’ for anyone or anything is kind of like watching plants grow.
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Hester wrote:
Ok, this is going to sound a bit skeptical, but are there really Proverbs 31 women in real life? I’m not talking about the first part of that Proverb, “The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain. She does him good, and not harm all the days of her life.” Rather, it’s the occupation of the Proverbs 31 woman that I’m skeptical about in 21st Century USA – actually in any time period when I think about it. I’ve read expositions on that part in which all sorts of interpretive gymnastics must be applied in order for it to make sense as a prescription for how Christian wives should be. But look at all that she does. What woman does all those things? I would collapse from exhaustion if I tried to be that Proverbs 31 woman.
And by the way, as I was looking for the Bible online, I found an interesting article written by a woman who feels pretty much the same way as I do. A Christian woman could very well become disillusioned trying to fulfill all those requirements. Here’s the article:
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/life/stop-obsessing-about-proverbs-31-woman
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Darlene, I think it was never meant to be a prescriptive list.
1) Jews use it to praise women, not to prescribe to them.
2) The only command in the piece is: “A woman who fears the Lord – she is to be praised.” In other words, praise god-fearing women.
Here, I wrote how I see the passage: https://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2013/11/06/proverbs-31-for-women-who-gets-tired-sometimes/
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One morning I was leaving for work when my car wouldn’t start. I called AAA and after what seemed like a long wait their truck showed up. After the man got it started he gave me a funny look and said “my parole officer and my counselor both said it was ok for me to start dating and have a sexual relationship” “Oh crap” I said to myself. I jabbered like an idiot and said some outlandish thing about how my husband (he really was deceased) was insanely jealous etc etc.
What I’m saying is it’s a crazy world. Lots of lonely people and Hollywood would have every one hook up and I don’t have all the answers.
I had lots of dates when I was younger and no interest in getting married and then met someone, it seemed like a good idea at the time and married. A gentle man who was in the military and went to war and came back unwell and died too young. I’ve stayed single because there are so many kooks and crooks and haven’t seen any good ideas for guys out there. I know there are good guys that struggle with all this.
I agree with everyone’s comments which is just to say that friendship, and love, and marriage and opposite sexes are a problem and a puzzle and with all the divorces it doesn’t look to me like there are many answers out there.
I love to see old Christian couples that have been married for 50-60 years and they seem to be the only ones who with Christ figured it out mostly.
God Bless you all and hang in and pray about it
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baloney. pure and simple the guy is a stalker.
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Daisy wrote:
But Daisy I actually said precisely the opposite!
… surely if a woman says ‘no’ to a date, the loving thing to do is to except it? This is the negation of any idea of male entitlement.
You can ask for a date, but asking by its very nature entails the right to say no.
There it is in black and white.
The defence rests.
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Friends, Hansen was asked if he had ENCOUNTERED the obligation thing,to which he responded, “Maybe not owe, maybe a courtesy” etc. I think you’ve all assumed he was answering whether HE thought there was such an obligation, but that is not the question he was answering! I beg you to go back and consider reading the conversation again and see if I’m wrong. I do not think Hansen was saying what you think he was saying. The original post from @cortgatliff even began by saying that the sentiment was wrong, which Hansen does not disagree with. Am I missing something?
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The bottom line here is that a woman who said she didn’t want contact continued to receive contact, even in the face of not responding (which always escalates men like this) and CM did not follow their own policy of removing abusive members. Why say “we will remove the profiles of abusive members” and then just say, ” Oh, block them.” That puts the burden on the paying subscriber and not CM to do what they say. No doubt they use this “tough talk” to make women feel safe to sign up.
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Maybe Daisy was confused because you interchanged “accept” and “except.” Not trying to be a stickler–I understood what you were saying, but maybe it wasn’t clear to everyone else.
Ken wrote:
Ken wrote:
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@ Jerome:
So we weren’t imagining this.
It’s and actual ‘thing’.
Talk about ‘The Traditions of Men”.
Those poor girls applying to Bob Jones. Did they have any idea what they were really signing up for?
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bonnie knox wrote:
Thanks for pointing out my silly mistake. In fact I have just been doing some proof-reading; it’s easy to spot someone else’s mistakes and not see your own in black and white in front of you!! Most worrying.
I feel a vacation coming on, and I’ve only just got back from the last one.
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Emerging from years of lurk.
“The less said, the better” seems to be the right truism, here, regarding Egalitarian Linda’s post declining Patriarchal Joe’s attention. And also for PJoe, in maintaining a semblance of dignity and at least the appearance of a healthy mental state.
It’s not a female-male thing so much as a Christian thing: we’re continually taught to give a witness to what we believe, in hopes the heart of the witnessee will be converted.
Thus ELinda couldn’t just say, “thanks but no” and PJoe couldn’t just say, “loser” and both of them go on to their next potential matches.
PS: TWW is great – glad the deebs and the posters keep it going.
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anewproblem wrote:
I did not post the entire Twitter exchange. Others believed that Hansen was encouraging a “courtesy” date. That is not an unusual position. It is one I have heard in Christian singles groups.
Perhaps you know him better than we know him. However, it is important, since others believed eh was saying what I though he said, to make sure that we state that no Christian woman should believe she must be courteous and accept a date. Dating is not the same thing as passing the salt and has far reaching implications.
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maura wrote:
Sounds lie one to me.
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BC wrote:
How awkward! I am glad he didn’t do anything more than talk.
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@ Anonymous:
Loved your comment.
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Ken wrote:
I was confused by your wording.
The first time I read your post, it sounded to mes like you were saying this:
‘When a man asks a woman on a date, the loving thing for the woman to do is to accept the date and date the guy, even if she doesn’t want to date the guy and initially wants to tell him “no”‘
If I misunderstood, my apologies.
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BC wrote:
Yikes. I’d like to think that guy just has a weird sense of humor and that was his idea of trying to be funny.
If he was being serious, I hope he realizes that blurting out your history like that can put a woman off, or creep her out.
If he was in prison at some point and has a checkered past, that is something you might want to break to a woman gently on a first or second date over a cup of coffee, not after just meeting her at random while doing your job.
Even though I’ve never married, I related to parts of your post and liked it. 🙂
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anewproblem wrote:
I’m not sure about the rest of your post and how to address it, but I wanted to zero in on that part, the “Maybe not owe, maybe a courtesy” wording.
Upon reflection, I’m not sure what the difference is.
When anyone tells women that automatically bestowing a date on a man she is not keen on is “a courtesy,” it is making a supposed courtesy into an obligation of sorts, so it is in a round about way, in the end scheme of things, it’s still saying all men are owed dates by women, even if the woman being asked is uninterested.
Can women not courteously turn down courtesy dates?
The older I get, I cannot comprehend why so many men perceive women as being obligated to cave in, to stroke their egos, or do other things for them (like go on dates they would rather not).
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BC wrote:
That is bad. The worst I ever had – which is, admittedly, not nearly as bad – was a 70-ish neighbour who, one day, complained to me (in my 20s then) about her irresponsible 40-something son who still lives with her, and how docters said her son is a psychopath. A week or 2 later I spoke to her again. She said what a pity it is that a “nice girl” like me is still single, and she could set me up for a date with her son…
No, thanks. I have enough trouble without inviting any psychopaths into my life.
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Lisa Moxie wrote:
I agree with your post, and not to beat a dead horse, but based on my own experience, and that of other women I’ve read about online, no matter what a woman says or does can invite this weird, angry, or stalking behavior.
I once even saw a situation where a guy who was angry about a woman not responding to him on a dating site blocked him altogether after he initiated contact, rather than even send him a polite “no thanks.”
(Never mind that women who do send a polite “no thanks” get told to ‘burn in hell’ and other things by some men, so sending a polite “no thanks” or “I’m afraid we’re not compatible” doesn’t work.)
Anyway, this guy writes to some advice lady about this, a lady who publishes a weekly advice column.
She talked to this guy about it.
This guy felt entitled to a courtesy “no thanks” rebuff and was outraged or deeply insulted that the lady opted to block him from the outset.
The advice lady told him just from reading his long, hostile-filled letter to her, she could tell he has problems with rejection, and the lady on the dating site did a wise thing by blocking him.
She also went on to explain the dynamics of online dating to him, from a woman’s perspective, something a lot of males don’t seem to appreciate.
Men don’t see what goes on behind the scenes on a woman’s end on these sites, they don’t see the large number of nasty, strange, hate filled comments, or violent threats women receive, or the awful, tacky sexual photos men send them, unsolicited.
The guy was seething in anger over being blocked by some woman he didn’t even know. That was a red flag to me right there. The date advice lady told him to just let it go, stop stewing over some random lady online who was not into you.
I think I know why the lady blocked him. I can see how it’s easier to block than to ignore the guy or send a polite rebuff, because either of those options can get a nasty response.
There are a lot of guys out there who don’t take rejection well, no matter how you go about the rejecting. You can be be sweet as pie and still get nasty replies or guys who refuse to take “no” for an answer.
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Daisy wrote:
I found myself thinking back to my teen years just now, and my dad’s advice. He told me I didn’t have to accept a date if I didn’t want to, and I didn’t have to have any other reason than, “I don’t want to.” He did, however, stress how very difficult it probably was for a teenage boy to get up the courage to ask a girl on a date, and so he encouraged me to be kind in my refusal.
That sounds a lot kinder and more reasonable than going out with someone as a “courtesy date” and giving him hope when you couldn’t care less.
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Mara wrote:
I read on a site that one of those fundie universities went from requiring the college kids to fill out paper work to date (romantic dates) to forcing the kids to fill out friendship paperwork.
If you wanted to hang out with an opposite gender person just to shoot the breeze, this fundie college made you fill out paperwork to get permission.
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Daisy wrote:
I had the same impression, Daisy, and almost dismissed the comment without reading further. However, reading all the way through, it appears the commenter is actually saying the opposite of what that first part implies.
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All Trolls wrote:
There’s a proverb to that effect…
(One of my dad’s favorite sayings — perhaps a Mark Twainism? — was “It’s getter to keep one’s mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt.”)
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@ refugee:
oops, “getter” should have been “better”
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Ken wrote:
So oft after a vacation (and they’re pretty rare, in the first place, much less often than once a year), I feel the need for a vacation to get over the vacation.
We bought a patio set on deep, deep discount at the end of summer, and this year’s vacation for me has been sitting outside on a pleasant day, doing my work on a laptop in the fresh air.
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Max wrote:
I’ll tell you one thing… the pool of available mates seems to be shrinking for the YRR male. I can’t tell you how many young women I’ve talked to lately who’ve said they’d rather marry a kind and considerate atheist, than a “biblical manhoody” man.
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dee wrote:
I do see conflicting thoughts about dating from Christian authors, therapists, and lay persons.
Some of them say singles should take dating deadly serious, while others say, no, view it casually.
I do think the School of Serious can create problems and freeze singles in fear, because they teach that getting a Coke and seeing a movie with another person pretty much equates to marriage.
Then some Christians (I’d say these guys are in the minority, though) tell singles to lighten up and take dating real casual.
I’m surprised that groups (such as Fundy Baptists or YRRs) would tell women that men are owed courtesy dates, when the rest of the time, these same groups are usually telling singles to take dating very serious.
I don’t see how promoting something like ‘courtesy dating’ is taking dating seriously; seems the opposite to me.
I don’t think most of the men promoting courtesy dates would be so keen on it if it applied to men, too.
If a woman they found physically and-or personality-wise totally unattractive, would they (the men) enjoy feeling obligated to take that woman out? Probably not, but they feel women should be fine with this concept.
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refugee wrote:
I agree with that and the rest.
I have flirted with guys before and was rejected. It wasn’t pleasant, and it hurts the ego.
Any time guys have flirted or asked me out, I appreciated that it took them some courage (probably), so I was always nice in how I turned them down.
But for guys who have anger issues, can’t handle rejection at all, or who have mental health problems, it doesn’t matter how nice you are about it, they still become unglued and rant.
I also think maybe there’s something to being online the emboldens people to behave worse than they usually would?
That might be why some of these guys go overboard on dating sites when women turn them down. They feel safer making threats over a web site than they would IRL or on the phone?
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Jerome wrote:
Perhaps harmless enough “tradition” in the generation that was penned … but, scary potential in the 21st century … there are stalkers lurking even at “Christian” colleges (and on “Christian” dating sites)! Today’s “tradition” must be “When I say NO, I mean NO!”
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refugee wrote:
I’m not YRR and never have been YRR, but what you said there applies to me (I was brought up in Southern Baptist, non-Calvinist churches/ theology).
After seeing what I’ve seen of so-called Christian men on dating sites (and read about on blogs like this one), I’d rather take chances on a kind-hearted atheist guy than most Christian guys.
(I’m not arguing that all Non-Christian men are gems, though.
I’ve had female family who have dated or married Non-Christian guys, and some of the NCs can be just as bad as the jerky Christian guys.)
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I really only meant to come by today to tell Deb and Dee thank you!! for this thread.
I did get side tracked into replying to some of the newer posts 🙂
It’s not often that Christian sites, especially the big name magazines or large organizations, feature any stories about what it’s like to be single past your mid-30s (whether you are divorced, widowed, or never married).
The big sites (publications like Relevant magazine, TGC, etc.) only discuss singleness in the ages of teen to possibly early 30s demographic.
Any single age 35 or older does not exist to these Christian publications or groups.
They have no idea what singles past their mid-30s deal with, not on dating sites, or with how they are overlooked (or insulted) in Christian venues.
So thank you to Deb and Dee for featuring a story about a 50-something unmarried lady on their site. I do appreciate it. I know there are bigger fish to fry, like churches covering up child and spouse abuse.
The over- 35- and- single niche is grossly under reported (and supported) by mainstream Christians and their media outlets, so it’s nice to see this group getting any sort of support or attention anywhere.
And a shout out to the married couples who cannot have kids, or who don’t want to have them, or the married couples who are “empty nesters” (the kids have moved out or are in college).
These groups also tend to marginalized by 99% of churches (but do get a bit more respect than the single/childless folks). But they get stiffed too.
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Daisy wrote:
Years ago while doing sexual assault training in high schools, we were appalled to learn that many young men felt that if they paid for dinner, the girl was obligated to return the courtesy…usually with sex. Yikes! We tried (sometimes in vain I think) to convince them that that belief was dangerous in that it was no longer a caring gesture, but a bribery of sorts and likely to destroy any possibility of a future, healthy, respectful relationship and could lead to a sexual assault accusation by the girl.
Where do these young men get these types of assumptions of entitlement?
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Daisy wrote:
No probs, but I do sometimes feel that if I post on a thread on this kind of subject you automatically assume you will disagree with me, which is not always the case! 🙂
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About two years ago, I met a woman in church who mentioned she met her boyfriend on Christian mingle. I asked her if she had any reservations about employing online dating services. She said she felt many men were lying and not true Christians. I met this guy once or twice and didn’t think too much about it, until a few months ago when I saw his mug on the Megan’s law sex offender website. Ugh! Ladies, be careful of these dating services. Very careful.
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Victorious wrote:
A very good question.
Hollywood and TV, where the culture portrayed is 95% of the time that sex outside of marriage – or even an ongoing relationship – is perfectly in order, nothing to worry about, everbody does it. The possible consequences of this in the form of pregnancy or disease are almost always swept under the carpet, especially the latter.
Secular education where any idea of self-control or abstinance is at best frowned upon, and at worst actively undermined.
Evolution, in the sense that alpha males evolved to be in charge, this is a facit of survival advantage common to other animals. If you teach boys they are animals, they may well behave like them. Morality doesn’t enter into it, unless you are religious and we all know they are repressed and should be ignored.
A general emptiness or purposelessness that results in a life of constant pleasure-seeking and wanting ever more material wealth. “I have a right to be happy”.
A general loss of self-respect.
Sometimes the body language or dress (or lack thereof) of the girls.
Divorce sends a message that marriage isn’t permament, a series of temporary ‘relationships’ is the order of the day.
God handing over an unbelieving society to the consequences of its rebellion.
Ultimately this attitude that women exist to be used, especially sexually, is a mark of the fall and is obviously nothing new, but imo the restraints on this have been significantly undermined in more recent decades.
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Victorious wrote:
Are you talking sexual revolution era, maybe 70s? Because there was a time when sex was, for many young people, almost an acceptable alternative to a handshake.
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@ Daisy:
I agree, I have been on these dating sites myself. On ChristianCafe, another site where egals should not venture (read the forums and you’ll know why) the sites says we should give the courtesy of a reply even if we are not interested. So I would say “thank you, I don’t think we are compatible, best of luck in your search” and get a vicious email back telling me how lucky I was for them to show interest. One guy wrote, “You’re so pretty, and yet you have birthdays.”
I don’t see any arrogance in Linda’s comment as you and Joe2 do. I think she was trying to keep the lines of communication open. We don’t know how long they corresponded before he showed his male supremacist tendencies. It seems to me she was saying “if you want to explore this with me that’s okay but I don’t want to argue”. Even if she was being arrogant, though, there is no need for the vicious response, nor is there any excuse for CM to just say “block him” instead of removing him as they clearly say they will do.
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Lisa Moxie wrote:
That is really an unacceptable thing for a supposed Christian man to say – I even question to them holding such an attitude let alone giving voice to it.
That sounds like more of something a Non-Christian MRA guy would say to a woman. MRAs are very hung up about women and age. They think women over 25 are too old, and women past 29 are ancient hags not worthy of a second glance.
I did not think that Linda was arrogant in her response to Patriarachal Joe.
I don’t know how to explain my views about it.
Certainly, Linda or any other woman is welcome and free to behave as they wish on these dating sites.
I would rather be un-hasseled and un-attacked on dating sites, and I find maybe it lessens the chance of getting a nasty reply back, if I don’t engage guys, if I keep any rejections polite and brief.
It’s not that I found Linda’s post to the guy arrogant, but that the more you try to explain yourself, or justify your views, or question the other person’s views, the more likely the other person is to become offended, start a fight and keep arguing you about it all day long, especially if the person’s elevator doesn’t go all the way to the top.
I could though put myself in Joe’s shoes.
I would imagine if I sent a wink to a guy on
“DateSite .com,” and his first(?) reaction was to send me a somewhat long reply back critiquing my theological beliefs, I might find that somewhat rude, or strange. I might be tempted to write the guy back to defend my views. I don’t know.
I’m not sure if Linda’s reply above was her first reply back to the guy or not?
But no, I don’t think she was arrogant.
I just personally find it more prudent, when I’m on a dating site, not to get into detailed reasons why I’m not interested in a guy, or else he might get angry and things might escalate. I’m trying to avoid that.
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@ Daisy:
A P.S. on that.
I also find keeping a break-up speech short is on course, as well.
Not that I like most dating advice, but most dating advice gurus will tell you that when you dump a boyfriend keep it short and sweet. I think they are right about that.
Some guys will beg for reasons. They will want a detailed list of precisely why you are breaking up with them. Everyone I’ve read advises against this.
When I dumped my ex fiance, he wanted detailed reasons. I said no.
One reason is that it would be cruel. He was basically asking me to run him down and list every flaw he had from my view. I did not want to do that. He was already crying and in tears I was ending things as it was.
Me telling him everything from he was financially unstable to his breath smells bad (or whatever) is only going to hurt him.
There is nothing constructive out of going into a detailed list of reasons you’re dumping a guy.
Also, at the end of the day, the guy at his core already knows WHY.
My ex dang well knew why I was dumping him. He knew the relationship had been failing the last 2, 3 yrs we were together. So on another level, it’s insulting for the guy to want to know why why why. You already know why.
Sometimes guys will ask for a long list o’ reasons because they are trying to suck you back into the relationship.
‘Oh, you say I ignore you when football is on TV? Ok, in the future, I will turn off TV and gaze into your eyes.’
And you’re like, ‘no, you don’t get it. I’m done. I want out. Nothing you can do or change at this point will get me to stay. There is no point in me telling you the “why’s” so you can try to fix stuff. It’s too late now.’
In reading books on getting past codependency, it’s the same concept there. The authors all say, Keep your refusals short and sweet, just say “No.”
Don’t give reasons for your “no’s,” or the other person will ask you to justify them all day long and try to refute each reason you cite.
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Law Prof wrote:
No. My employment as an advocate and trainer was from the years 1995-2005.
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dee wrote:
Hi Dee,
I agree that several others in the conversation took his statement the way TWW has done. But note that my reading tracks better with the original statement by Cort Gatliff, and with the way another tweeter took it:
I wouldn’t say that I know Hansen better than you, but I know him in a different way. I’ve never read any of his books and have read only a couple of articles of his, but I do know him personally (but not closely). I went to seminary with him and shared several classes with him.
It just seems to me that a charitable reading of anyone’s words would include the assumption that he was responding to the original statement in total, including its categorical rejection of the idea, unless he made it clear otherwise.
As for the distinction between “owing” a date and giving one out of “courtesy,” I can’t answer for him since there’s not much to go on. I haven’t dated in a long time (praise God!) and don’t know what “the kids” are saying to one another. I *do* know that my 3 girls will all be told that they never owe a date to anyone.
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Ken wrote:
hmmm…we’ve had @6,000 yrs. to overcome some “marks” of the fall. Why does this one persist?
You provided some thought-provoking reasons for the sense of entitlement in men, but you didn’t mention church. I don’t want to debate the issue, but I don’t think we can overlook or deny that influence in forming a sense of entitlement in young men.
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@ Ken:
Um, Ke, most of the TV shows i watch portray sex as happenning within the confines of marriage, and I’m talking about network shows here, not shows made for so-called xtian broadcasting.
I watch a lot of Tv from the UK and Scandinavia, too, and, perhaps surprisingly, this is often the case in these shows as well. By far the raunchiest, most consistent portrayals of sex outside of marriage that I’ve run across have originated in * New Zealand,* of all the unlikely places.
Something tells me that you either don’t watch much TV (neither do i, actually), or that you’re referring to a limited number of shows (we have those, too), or both. In fact, one recent show (a Uk-Nowegian co-production) actually featured a subplot in which two characters backed away from getting into an adulterous relationship – in fact, did so over and over throughout the course of the show (The Saboteurs, about the sabotagibg of the heavy water manufacturing plants in occupied Norway).
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@ Ken:
Your entire post gives me the shivers, even the point i agree with (alpha males” leads to Lord of the Flies scenarios).
I wonder sometimes if you are reading 80s Culture War-inspired books, or if your views were developed some time ago and have not changed? Your reference to “the culture” is – whether you realize it or not – a distinctively Culture War-era phrase, and largely abandoned here, except by hardcore evangelicals and fundies. (As in, people who conflate religion and politics.)
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@ Ken:
Ikwym about typos, seeing that I’m always in trouble that way when i comment using phone or tablet.
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@ elastigirl:
Hey, I’ve been truly entertained by watching things I’ve planted do just that! 😉
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BC wrote:
How about non-ixtian elderly couples who have stayed married that long?
Would you exclude them from your praze-list?
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@ numo:
I still remember the night when I realize that politics and religion don’t mix very well. It was a group of Christians criticizing non-Christians at our political meeting. I announced that it was probably a text not a Bible study and I believe that might have been the last meeting I went to
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@ Victorious:
I don’t want to argue the point all day either, but I do agree with you that some churches and gender complementarianism and patriarchal teachings and beliefs have contributed to a sense of entitlement in men.
You would think Christians would be arguing against male domination and exploitation of women, but no, they often support it.
There are Christian guys who actually argue things like a wife always owes a husband sex, for example.
Some of them try to word it a bit nicer than others, but they still argue the same points that secular society does.
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@ numo:
Those are interesting points.
I have noticed that a lot of American (and some European produced) TV shows or movies, in spite of having casual sex scenes, don’t necessarily endorse casual sex but actually question it or criticize it.
If anyone here ever watched American cable TV show “Mad Men,” you have this slick character (Don Draper) who bedded many women week in and week out, and who had affairs on his two or three wives, but the guy was not happy at all.
Draper kept trying to find meaning or happiness in sex (or alcohol) but always came up way, way short. He was so unhappy that audience members thought he might try to off himself.
There have been more and more movies (American made) in the last several years that have the female leads question casual sex.
One of the more recent ones (I’ve only read about it, have not watched it) is called “Trainwreck.”
The female lead in that film swears off serious relationships, and I think the movie shows her in raunchy situations, and having sex all over the place with different men.
By the end of the movie, though, she questions all that and I think opts for a serious, committed relationship.
The movie ends up having a traditional, old fashioned message about sex (and dating and marriage), as have other several Hollywood movies I have seen in the last few years.
These movies may contain smutty humor and racy scenes, but the message they convey by the end is “casual sex will leave you unfulfilled, hold out for someone and something more.”
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The Christian college I attended in the 80s (Pensacola Christian College) taught that any woman student should accept any first date from a new male student, unless the woman was already in a committed relationship. As I recall, the instructions from the campus pastor, Jim Schettler, went something like, “it takes a lot of courage to ask a girl out, so give the fella a chance.”
But this college was a VERY closed environment — dates typically consisted of sitting next to each other in church on purpose. (Students were required to attend all church services anyway.) Admonitions like that really only work in that kind of over-controlled situation. There were more than a few odd fellas that I sat next to in church on purpose.
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@ Daisy:
This is true of pretty much all of the US and European shows that i watch. Casual sex is not glorified – in fact, the complete opposite is true. Characters who do engage i it are very lonely, lost, unhappy – seeking something much greater thsn casual sex (or drinking, drugs, gambling reckless spending, etc.) could ever provide.
Don Draper is the ultimate in “don’t go there”: ultimately, he succeeds in the advertiding world, but at SUCH a tertible cost to sll the people in his life – wives, children, mistresses, co-workers. He has no friends, drove his half-brother to suivde early on in the show’s run… imo, he is a sociopath, unable to connect with other human beings in any meaningful, lasting way. Few of his colleagues are any better.
Ultimately, i found the show so depressing (especially after a scene in which Draper physically abuses a eoman he’s been sleeping with) that I quit watching. I’m not sure that the writers delivered the social commentary that they had hoped for, since there are cohorts of young (and young-ish) men who serm to idolize Don Draper.
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@ numo:
I do like Peggy, but that’s about it.
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@ Dee:
It can be harder to get awy from – in my experience, at least – when it becomes pervasive in a church, and people that you like are getting caught up in it.
A lot of churches excel at propaganda, too. I was in s double bind in a situation back in the 80s, due to the weird mixture of politics and religion in a chur h i attended. On top of that, it was more or less associated (though not formally) with the Ft. Lauderdale Five; Derek Prince in particular. He was a dmart guy, but once he started demon-chasing, he never looked back. Very, very sad.
Btw, there were sll kinds of people who were closely associated with both Reagan and Bush I in this place – also, some were hardcore members of The Fellowship, aka The Family, though i was only dimly aware of it at the time.
From there, i escsped (as i thought) to the “church” that booted me.
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Greaves wrote:
Greaves wrote:
Sounds almost like having assigned seats in 4th grade and having to sit at a table with the last person in class with whom you would choose to sit.
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Victorious wrote:
It comes from the prostitution and porn mentality that is seeping into everyday lives. Porn teaches men entitlement. Prostitution is paying for sex. Our culture has become a porn culture. So basically these boys see girls as prostitutes even if they don't realize it and don't think in those terms.
Well, actually some use those terms. Bros before hoes, if you know what I mean. Sex is something you pay for. Not something enjoyed mutually.
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@ Ken:
It’s been a bit of an evolution.
In the 50s there was Play Boy (and other things) that glamorized the exploitation of women.
In the 60s there was the sexual revolution which was a bit of equalizing of the male and female libido.
And from there Movies, Television, and other things caught up and one-upped each other and themselves to bring us where we are.
I’m speaking of the current downward trend, of course. This things ebb and flow.
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Mara wrote:
I wish that wasn’t true, but I’m afraid it is. Even in our churches….
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I had the same thought when I was reading that person’s messages. It all sounds very similar to the responses on other dating websites of men who are denied the “courtesy” of a date, except that this time it had a coat of theology.
Very quickly, these men jumped into insulting and aggressive behaviour, making it sure to establish that there has to be something ‘wrong’ with the other person for them to reject such an attractive offer. Maybe, according to the rejected party, the problem was the women’s potential sexual preferences, their obnoxiousness, or, in this particular case, her narcissism and her wrong conclusions about the Bible that are, very surely, leading her to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and death!
Talk about gaslighting.
There’s such a huge sense of entitlement on these men, with regards to how they assume a woman should respond to them, that is very disturbing.
By the way, I need to find out the reasons why the name ‘Felipe’ was chosen for guys who behave like that.
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Ken P. wrote:
You are so right about this!! Thank you for saying it.
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numo wrote:
Agreed. He’s one sick puppy, in my book!
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maura wrote:
Exactly!!
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Ken wrote:
I’ve been thinking about this, and I wonder if many of these things you have listed as causes are effects of losing sight of the point of the ten commandments and of the example of Christ. And they can be summed up as loving and respecting and honoring God because he is God and loving and respecting and honoring others because we are all created in his image. We have lost our fundamental purpose and how we live that out. I’m not under the illusion that things were ever great because I think that the general state of humanity after the Fall is pretty crummy only in different ways at different times. At the same time, I do not think that the image of God is erased but only defaced. What if we worked to restore self-respect (healthy self-love) and respect for others as well as healthy love for others?
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@ Dee:
Both sides do it. There are some who think if you are a believer, from the south and own a gun you are an ignorant hick who can’t wait to kill people who are different. The automatic labeling gets old from both sides.
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numo wrote:
@ numo
Before I address that, I wanted to reiterate my apology to you from a few weeks ago.
I am sorry I hurt your feelings. That was not my intent with that post I made.
(I’d also like to apologize to Nick. I bit his head off once or twice in months past. I shouldn’t even be sniping at Ken, but some of his views (on gender comp stuff) frustrate me to no end on occasion. Apologies to anyone else I’ve hurt or offended since I’ve posted on here).
(In my post to you, I was actually trying to communicate to you that I was wanting to spare your feelings.
I was just trying to say maybe it’s better for me not to deal too much with someone, if I may have a temper tantrum with them and say mean things to them in the heat of the moment.)
I’ve been going through stuff the last few years. I can be cranky at times, but at my core, I’m more warm and fuzzy and more apt to avoid confrontation. I’ve been learning the last few years to stand up for myself.
I come from a family that taught me it’s inappropriate to show feelings (especially anger) or admit to having needs.
My siblings didn’t take those messages to heart, though, not all the way. I get verbally lashed by them (especially a sister who I’ve had issues with the last few years in particular). Anyway.
I too found the Mad Men show depressing.
Yet, I was curious to see how the characters turned out, and I had fun just looking at the 1960s decor, suits, hair styles, etc.
I didn’t watch the Mad Men show from the very beginning. I started watching around season 4 or 5 and then got caught up on some of the season 1 – 3 stuff via repeats.
I also agree with you that the show’s premise – that sex and alcohol (and money) won’t bring inner peace and happiness may have passed over the heads of a lot of younger guys.
The Don Draper persona and fashions were pretty popular with younger guys in real life when the show first started (at least according to articles I saw at the time).
I think those guys missed the show’s point: Don Draper is not a guy you should be emulating or looking to as a role model! Even if Don Draper (if he were real) would agree with that.
I do think Draper ended up finding peace in the show’s finale episode, where he attended that counseling session thing with the New Age hippie guys, or whoever / whatever that was.
On the plus side, the show itself had one or two male characters who were like that, such as Pete Campbell -he tried to be another Don Draper- and the show depicted him as being miserable in the end scheme of things.
I think the Campbell character ended up trying to reconcile with his wife and being a traditional family man by the last episode?
I find it rather amusing that some Christians are still beating up on secular entertainment, when, if you actually watch the stuff yourself (rather than rely on second hand commentary, ie, read nit picky Christian media reviews of it), you will find that under all the raunchy scenes, some of these shows and movies are actually presenting some biblical or old fashioned values.
Some of the secular critiques of casual sex, etc, reminds me of portions of the Old Testament, stuff from Proverbs or the book of Ecclesiastes.
Ecclesiastes 1 / “Everything Is Meaningless”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1
Or it kind of reminds me of that comment by Jesus, “For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?”
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@ numo:
Oh yeah, I loved Peggy! I dug the scene (from the last season) where she swaggered into the new job with the box of office stuff, wearing shades, with the cigarette dangling from her lower lip.
I sometimes felt for Joan. I pretty much liked Joan, though there were times she was catty with other people. I also kind of liked Sally, the daughter.
I liked that some of these ladies stood up for themselves, especially in such sexism environments.
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@ Martos:
There have been news stories in the last few years not just in the USA but overseas of women out in public (let alone on dating sites) who get assaulted.
There was a story of a woman in another country who turned down a man’s advances – he flirted with her in public, and he assaulted her in some way. I think he beat her up?
That kind of thing has happened several times, I’ve seen other news stories of it happening to other women.
Every so often, I see the genders reversed, but usually, it’s male on female violence when or if the lady turns the guy down.
The Man Who Allegedly Killed A Woman After She Rejected Him Has Been Charged With Murder
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/13/mary-spears-mark-dorch-detroit_n_6151152.html
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Daisy wrote:
There are also many women both ixtian and non who are real pieces of work too. They don’t really like sex in and of itself as a recreational pursuit, but rather it’s viewed as a bargaining chip, leverage, and a way to obtain progeny.
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@ Daisy:
Apology accepted, Daisy – please don’t worry about it, OK
I’m not so sure that Draper found peace, but he spparently did find the idea for the “Coke: it’s the Real Thing” ad campaign.
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Muff Potter wrote:
This is true. And with Christian women the situation becomes even more cloudy because Christian women with extremely limited or no sexual experience are considered virtuous by the church and desired by Christian men seeking a virgin for a wife. The sad reality is that the Christian men find out after marriage that his wife doesn’t really like sex.
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Joe2 wrote:
Oh no, that’s not the case. I’m a 40 something virgin. I was waiting til marriage to have sex but have never married.
As I mentioned above, most men today, Christian and Non, do not want a virgin bride.
On their dating site profiles, the Christian ones all put “want a woman with sexual experience.”
Secular articles I’ve read caution Non Christian guys of staying away from virgin ladies because we are supposedly too much effort or trouble or will not be good in the sack.
The majority of people in American culture, Christian or no, really do not value or respect virginity. They think it’s weird, stupid, or a “hang up” that needs to be cured and gotten rid of as soon as possible.
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@ numo:
Oh, I thought maybe he found some amount of peace because he cried and hugged that guy in group therapy, and towards the end, he was sitting on that hillside meditating with a smile, as though he was content at last? That’s just how I perceived it.
I remember that Coke commercial from the 1970s. They usually ran that around the holidays.
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Joe2 wrote:
A Post Script on that.
I’ll try to keep this clean and not get crass, but I suspect in a large majority of cases where the wife is not thrilled to have sex, it’s either because the husband is neglecting her or exploiting her all day long outside the bedroom (taking the wife for granted, not helping her with housework, etc), and/or the husband is terrible in bed.
Again, trying not to be crass here, but based on what I’ve read and heard from women, a lot of women don’t achieve sexual satisfaction through the, shall we say, standard sexual act. And a lot of husbands either are unwilling, too lazy, or selfish to do other things to or for their wives in that area that will please the wife.
So, if a wife is not into sex, it could be something the husband is doing or not doing.
There are women who have issues with spouses because they were abused by relatives as kids or what not. Some women may have physical problems that make the act painful.
Sometimes it’s not the woman’s fault or lack of interest in sex if she’s not enjoying sexy fun time with the husband.
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Daisy wrote:
I’m not aware of any Christian church that teaches virginity before marriage is weird, stupid, or a hang up that needs to be cured and gotten rid of.
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Joe2 wrote:
Several points for you to consider (from someone who is an over 40 virgin, so I know what I am talking about).
1. The “official” position of most (conservative) Christian groups and churches is that of course the Bible teaches virginity before marriage – so they will claim to support this ideal or value.
However, they do not support actual older virgins such as me. They only value and pay attention to women who marry and who have kids.
They say they support celibacy and virginity but they really push everyone to marry, marry young, have lots of kids – they push having sex, not staying a virgin.
2. Also, individual Christian men on dating sites I’ve rubbed elbows with do not want virgin wives.
They also state as much on their profiles when they say, “I want a woman with sexual experience.”
These self-professing Christian men are getting the notion from somewhere that marrying a non-virgin is better than marrying virgins.
Somehow, their denominations or churches are failing to convey the import of remaining chaste prior to marriage if they think a non-virgin woman is always preferable to a virgin one and say so on their dating profiles.
3. There is “backlash” against virginity and celibacy among liberal and conservative groups because many people (usually women), have been writing blog posts and articles the last few years lambasting Christian “sexual purity” teachings with having made them feel like second hand, used goods (their feelings have been hurt).
So, the tone of most articles about sexual morality these day by most Christians, from Reformed groups, Baptists, and conservative evangelicals, as well as liberal Christians, say:
“your virginity does not really matter. Purity is not about abstaining sexually. So remember, if you have had sex before marriage, God still loves and values you.”
Now, all that sounds fine and peachy until you remember there are actual virgins like me past 40 reading this same material.
The message I take away from such anti-purity culture editorials Christians have been cranking out the last few years is that being a virgin does not really matter – not to God, it shouldn’t matter to me, nor does it really matter to Christians.
So, I think to myself when reading such pages, why on earth have I bothered abstaining all these years, if they are saying me having sex prior to marriage is not a big deal, God will forgive me of it anyhow, and my virginity has no worth?
I was engaged to a man for several years. According to all these anti-purity Christian writers, I should have been fooling around with my ex all the while.
4. See also:
Where are America’s virgins? Discouraging the virtuous By Julia Duin
http://www.ebireflections.com/2/9/6
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Daisy wrote:
Not just Christian guys. Women as well. I remember hearing the same teaching Michelle Duggar presents here:
https://www.duggarfamily.com/michelles-blog?ID=778dd00f-c069-4517-a8cf-067beea6511d
She says:
“And so be available, and not just available, but be joyfully available for him. Smile and be willing to say, ‘Yes, sweetie I am here for you,’ no matter what, even though you may be exhausted and big pregnant and you may not feel like he feels. ‘I’m still here for you and I’m going to meet that need because I know it’s a need for you.’ ”
I’ve realized the sweetness of that through the years. While I am always joyfully available for him, in turn, he’ll lay down his life in any way. He will sit there and listen to everything I need to tell him because he knows that I’m there for him, too. I’m meeting his needs, he’s meeting my needs.
Perhaps that verse in Ephesians was mistranslated and it really reads, “Wives, put out for your husband at all times, no matter what; husbands, you are commanded to make love to your wives as Christ loves the church (i.e. constantly, frequently, often; gently correcting her when she demurs, and getting the job done).”
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Oops, I should have set off that MD quote. That last paragraph was not quoted from MD. Her quote ends with the sentence “I’m meeting his needs, he’s meeting my needs.”
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Sorry, I’m angry today, and it shows. Those people who preach at women, “sex no matter how you feel because he needs it and has every right to expect it and practically has a right to go out and look for it elsewhere if you don’t provide” really make me feel sick. They never seem to quote the verse where Paul tells husband and wife that it’s okay to abstain “for a season.”
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refugee wrote:
Yeah, a lot of Christians with agendas to push or favorite pet doctrines to push will conveniently ignore (or water down) the verses of teachings that conflict with their views.
Gender comps also do this with Galatains 3:28, Eph. 5:21, Deborah in the Old Testament, etc.
Christians who promote marriage and natalism out the ying yang gloss over the “it’s better to stay single than marry, marriage brings all sorts of trouble in life” passage by Paul in 1 Cor 7.
If the verse does not fit what they are trying to promote, they ignore it or say it’s an exception.
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Daisy wrote:
Not true for all of us Daisy. I have the utmost respect for all people Christian or non who believe in virginal purity. And no, I do not consider their beliefs stupid at all. Live, let live, and let each be convinced in his or her own mind.
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Daisy wrote:
I wonder what people would think if a woman on a Christian dating website said, “I want a man with sexual experience.”
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refugee wrote:
Stockholm Syndrome geared up a few notches?
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@ Muff Potter:
I am glad to here that, but it’s so rare for anyone to respect it, whether they are religious or not.
It’s so expected that women have sex prior to marriage now, that I’ve seen a tiny number of secular pages like this one, where women say they have to defend their choice to stay a virgin or only having sex after getting to know a guy first, because their friends question them about why they are NOT having sex….
‘We’re either “prudes” or “sluts”‘: 25-year-old hits out at society for ‘labeling’ women based on their sex lives, as she reveals why she refuses to hook-up with men ‘for fun’
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3262204/We-prudes-sluts-25-year-old-hits-society-labeling-women-based-sex-lives-reveals-refuses-hook-men-fun.html
———-
That a woman feels the need to write an editorial like that, defending and explaining her choice to postpone sex (and that is POSTPONE, she is not even being totally celibate like I am) in today’s world should indicate it’s not the norm.
Abstaining from (or delaying) sex is considered odd by many people these days.
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@ Daisy:
Honestly, though, purity culture has hurt people (and not just in the “hurt their poor little feelings” sense). I am 100% in support of deconstructing all of the harmful and negative aspects of purity culture, but when this goes beyond rejecting purity culture’s excesses and gets into denigrating people who are virgins, the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction.
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@ Josh, Doctor of Pulchritudinousness:
I agree with your post.
I acknowledge that how some Christians have presented the message of sexual purity can or does hurt people (and not just their feelings, it can have other ramifications), but I’ve seen more and more writing the past few years from Christians which sort of put down celibacy / virginity… which I don’t think most of them are doing intentionally.
But I don’t think they stop to consider how their writing is coming across to folks over the age of 25 who are still virgins (or who are celibates).
Most all the critiques of sexual purity culture stuff I’ve seen are written by married people or sexually active single people, or people who were sexually active prior to marriage.
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@ Daisy:
Nothing conservative Christianity had to offer in the late 90’s could have prepared me for what my development into adolescence brought upon me (i.e. fancying not girls but boys), so I can’t pin my own hangups on purity culture exclusively. But I’ve also read many critiques of purity culture’s obsession with virginity by people who had theirs forcefully taken from them by abuse, so it’s not just married people and liberals. 😉
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Daisy wrote:
The actor who did Don Draper DOES agree with that. I remember an interview with him in TIME Magazine where he actually ripped into the guys who think Draper is a role model. “He’s an alcoholic loser — he’s like the ads he makes; all perfect and juicy and delicious on the outside, all rotten and inedible inside.”
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@ Josh, Doctor of Pulchritudinousness:
To me, the issue revolves around consensual sexual acts. Abuse or assault is an entirely other matter.
There is a fair amount of “virginity / celibacy doesn’t really matter” opinions being tossed around in liberal and conservative Christian articles in regards to consensual acts (not just in discussions of how purity talks can harm someone who was assaulted).
A percentage of stories I see involve ladies who were voluntarily sexually active as teens with boyfriends(or when college aged), and – occasionally -and women in their 20s / 30s who, by their own choice, slept around while single, and/or worked in strip clubs, and/or married women who carried on affairs.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
How interesting. I never saw that interview with Hamm (who played Draper).
In real life, I glanced over a few news stories from several months back that said in real life that Hamm went in for alcohol treatment.
He and his long time girlfriend broke up a few months ago, too.
It’s interesting how although a lot of people think that Hamm is a really good looking man, and though he’s famous, and probably has a fair amount of money – he has all the things in real life that Draper has/had – his personal life doesn’t appear all that great, either.
You can have looks, money, fame and still have addictions, relationships fall apart, etc.
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numo wrote:
You’re pretty accurate here, as there is little to watch that is worthwhile on either German or British TV (the way we receive the latter is dodgy, but not illegal!). The portrayal of the current secular culture is not always accurate either – my complaint about sex outside of marriage is more true of films, but hardly unknown in standard TV output. It does seem to be taken as the norm unless the action is situated in the past. In real life though it is not universal, and neither do all marriages end in divorce.
I gave up watching soaps a very long time ago, partly because there are better things to do with the time, and partly because they seemed to go on a downhill spiral of outdoing each other in how nasty people could be to each other. Too negative, and it can rub off on you in a depressing way. In real life, people are sometimes actually nice to each other.
I have a largish collection of British TV output on DVD, mainly from the olden times era before the Internet made this unnecessary. Morse, Lewis, Foyle … far too many involving someone getting murdered, and that can be a source of being negative as well.
At least there is the occasional Jane Austen adaptation, or Downton Abbey which has an uncanny resemblance to the BBC’s Pride and Prejudice of 1995 being eked out over several series.
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Daisy wrote:
Kind of off topic, but since you mentioned strip clubs you might find this interesting. One of the ushers that was selected for the pope’s recent celebration of mass at Madison Square Garden actually owns a strip club or nudie bar. I listened to his interview on a radio station. He was asked what his parish priest thought about his business. I was left with the impression that it was no big deal, or he could be doing worse, or something to that effect.
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numo wrote:
I don’t think I’ve been exposed to much culture war stuff, if only this has not been something UK evangelicalism as a rule has got into. The church should be salt and light, but cannot impose it’s morality on the world around it.
It strikes me from the world of American blogdom that evangelicalism (or at least some branches of it) is more political than in the UK. Take the abortion issue, on an individual basis this would be considered morally wrong by most if not all evangelicals, but there is little distinctively evangelical campaigning to have the abortion laws tightened up or for it to be made illegal again. This might be due to the lack of a realistic chance of getting the law radically changed, but mixing religion and politics is generally frowned upon in the UK. Trying to influence how people should vote is certainly taboo.
I might at one time have been influenced by Hal Lindsay’s writings, but that is a very long time ago!
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Joe2 wrote:
Actually he could be doing way worse. Let’s say he’s a hedge-fund manager of a big multi-national that grinds third world farmers deeper into poverty and added misery, up to and including denying them even the meager living they wrest from the soil.
So which is the bigger deal, a strip club or even more cruelty done in real space-time to the down-strata of this world?
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Muff Potter wrote:
Well, you have to take into account the significant number of those who work in strip clubs who are there because they were victims of human trafficking. And even those who aren’t are being exploited in other ways. It’s not an either/or question (is cruelty to poor women worse than cruelty to poor farmers?). It’s both/and (both are cruel).