Would You Say No? I Might. Was the Oregon Shooter a Persecutor of Christians or Delusional?

“We were in the hands of our persecutors, when my father, out of the affection he bore me, made new efforts to shake my resolution. I said to him: ‘Can that vessel, which you see, change its name?’ He said: ‘No.’ I replied: ‘Nor can I call myself any other than I am, that is to say, a Christian.’” Perpetua link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetua_and_Felicity#/media/File:Perpetua.jpg
Perpetua

Today, I want to have debate as to whether or not the Oregon shooter is an example of legitimate Christian persecution. Also, I want to explore how would we respond to a person in that situation who lied and said they were not a Christian in order to avoid death? Then, to make it more personal, let's throw in how each of us might respond in a similar situation. 

I do not want to discuss gun laws in this post.There are people of good faith on both sides of this political issue. Instead, this post should revolve round the issue of serious mental illness and what that means to Christians caught in such a situation. This is an issue that I have contemplated since the Columbine shooting and decided it would be great to bring it to our readers and see what they think. My guess is that all of you have considered this issue and I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Government sponsorship of Christian persecution 

There is no question that Christians have suffered true persecution throughout the last two millennia. Let me hasten to add that other groups have been persecuted as well. Today, though, we are focusing on Christians. One example of such oppression was the Roman persecution of the early Christians. The following link will take you to a site that outlines the persecutions that occurred under each Emperor of Rome.  

PERSECUTION IN THE EARLY CHURCH: A GALLERY OF THE PERSECUTING EMPERORS

From A.D. 30 to A.D. 311, a period in which 54 emperors ruled the Empire, only about a dozen took the trouble to harass Christians. Furthermore, not until Decius (249–251) did any deliberately attempt an Empire-wide persecution. Until then, persecution came mainly at the instigation of local rulers, albeit with Rome’s approval. Nonetheless, a few emperors did have direct and, for Christians, unpleasant dealings with this faith. 

Early Christians judged those Christians who compromised their witness during these persecutions.

During the reign of Decius, Christians were required to sacrifice and burn incense to the Emperor. It is important to understand that Julius Caesar declared himself to be the son of God and this belief carried over to subsequent emperors. Therefore, this took on a spiritual meaning for Christians that went far beyond mere patriotism. Those who refused to do so were sentenced to death and/or prison. Many Christian died, others went into hiding, and still others caved under the pressure.

This synopsis from Wikipedia is a quick overview of the matter link (Quotes below are from Wikipedia.) For a more in depth look at the issue, read this post on Persecution in the Early Church Part 2 in Christian History Magazine.

The edict ordered that everyone in the Empire, with the exception of Jews, must sacrifice and burn incense to the gods and to the well-being of the Emperor in the presence of a Roman magistrate, and get a written certificate, called a libellus, that this had been done, signed by the magistrate and witnesses.

…Christians were prohibited by their faith from worshipping the Roman gods or burning incense before an image of the Emperor. Refusal resulted in the deaths of some notable Christians, including Pope Fabian, Babylas of Antioch and Alexander of Jerusalem. It is not known how much of an effort was made by the authorities to check that everyone in the Empire had a ticket certifying that they had sacrificed but it is known that numerous Christians, including Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, went into hiding.[4] The numbers of people put to death for refusing to obtain a certificate is unknown. Large numbers of Christians performed the sacrifices as required, so much so that authorities at Carthage were overwhelmed by the numbers seeking a certificate and were forced to issue a notice requesting people to come back the next day.[1]

Those who went into hiding or performed the sacrifices and received the libellus were held in suspicion by the church. After the persecutions died down, Christians who had not compromised debated as to whether or not those that had should be welcomed back into the church.

…The effects of the edict on Christian communities, many of which had until then lived peacefully and undisturbed, was traumatic. Christians such as Cyprian who had fled rather than face death, or who had performed the sacrifices, faced hostility from other Christians.[8] By 251, efforts to enforce the edict had died down, and although short-lived, the “Decian persecution” became in the collective memory of the church an episode of monstrous tyranny.[9]

It is important to note that this sort of persecution was a state sponsored, deliberate act of the Roman government.

The relevant Biblical verses which were used to in this debate.

Here are the oft quoted verses dealing this subject Luke 12:8-12. NIV (Bible Gateway)

“I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

“When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.”

Was last week's shooting in Oregon an example of a cohesive strategy to target Christians?

Before we look at one such claim, there is a caveat. This tragedy is still being investigated, so we need to approach the anecdotal reports with a grain of salt. You may remember Cassie Bernall who was killed at Columbine. A whole industry was born around "She Said Yes" due to an anecdotal report that she said she was a Christian to the shooters who then killed her. Those reports have been discredited.

However, determining what was said or what wasn't said is not the focus of this post. Instead, let's debate "What if it were true? Then would it be Christian persecution?"

Todd Starnes says "Yes."

The day Christians were martyred on American soil by Todd Starnes

Kortney Moore was inside the classroom. She told the Roseburg News-Review that the shooter ordered students to get on the ground — and then told them to stand up and state their religion.

“And they would stand up and he said, ‘Good, because you’re a Christian, you’re going to see God in just about one second,” Stacy Boylan said in a televised report. “And then he shot and killed them.”

His 18-year-old daughter was struck in the back by a bullet – that traveled down her spine. She survived. Miss Moore, too, survived.

Davis Jaques, publisher of the Roseburg Beacon News, said he received a text message from a student who said she was inside the classroom.

“The shooter was lining people up and asking if they were Christians,” the message read. “If they said yes, then they were shot in the head. If they said no or didn’t answer, they were shot in the leg.”

Christians were martyred for their faith — on American soil —

Tennessee's Lt. Governor says "yes' and calls for Christian to arm themselves.

Salon posted Tennessee Republican’s deranged reaction to Oregon shooting: Christians must now arm themselves

…“While this is not the time for widespread panic, it is a time to prepare,” Ramsey suggested, reacting to the 294th mass shooting in America this year.

…“Whether the perpetrators are motivated by aggressive secularism, jihadist extremism or racial supremacy, their targets remain the same: Christians and defenders of the West,” he declared.

…Ramsey then urged Christians to get serious about their faith and “think about getting a handgun carry permit.”

“Our enemies are armed. We must do likewise,” he concluded.

Was this possibly the act of a seriously mentally ill man who was delusional and not actually persecution of Christians?

Dr. Keith Ablow says "Yes."

Chris Harper Mercer, the man who killed nine people in Oregon yesterday, was almost certainly profoundly mentally ill.  According to neighbors, Mercer isolated himself from others, communicated largely through the Internet and lived in the basement of his mother’s house in Torrance, California before moving to Oregon. 

He was frequently seen wearing camouflage pants and combat boots.  And he reportedly left a note at the scene of his rampage yesterday stating he had no girlfriend and no life and would be welcomed in Hell and embraced by the devil.

I certainly never examined Mr. Mercer, but these details, if true, may point to conditions like schizoid personality disorder, Asperberger’s syndrome or even schizophrenia, any of which can dramatically limit the ability to socialize and empathize with others, contribute to feelings of emptiness and isolation and spawn anything from intense depression to paranoid delusions.

Given the fact that Mercer lived for a time with his mother during his adult years, was noticed to be peculiar by neighbors and had acquaintances online, I would venture that more than one person knew he was not well. 

Here is another statement by Ablow from Raw Story. 
(Once again, I hasten to add that I do not want to get into a discussion on gun control.)

Ablow said that he never questioned why shootings happened because he worked as a psychiatrist.

He added: “And I see and get these calls from ERs where they say, ‘We want to send this person home, he threatened his mother and his family last night. But now he’s promising he’s fine. And we’ve got to get him out of here because the insurance company is on our back.’ That’s our system. That’s why this is happening.”

Should Christians always confess to being a Christian if it means being put to death, etc.?

I am going to go out on a limb and let you know where I am at. Throughout my Christian life, I have heard sermon after sermon praising those martyrs who have died for Christ. I admire so many of them. Perpetua is one of my heroes. I have often wondered, however, if there were instances in which it would be prudent, and even honoring to the life God gave me, to not blurt out my faith in some circumstances.  With that in mind, here are a few of my thougts.(Always subject to change without advanced notice!)

  1. I would hope that I would be brave in the face of true Christian persecution, Ala the Roman Empire, to stand for my faith and be willing to go to the Coliseum as did Perpetua. I believe that those were true persecutions, premeditated by the government and carried out systematically. The Emperors knew exactly what the were doing. There is no question that Romans considered their Emperors to be gods.
  2. Sitting in my comfortable kitchen in America, I can say I would stand my ground. But what if I chickened out and didn't?
  3. I think of Peter who denied Jesus three times during the trial. He became a leader in the faith and went on to be an actual martyr. He was forgiven for denying Christ.
  4. In my reading of the persecution of the early Christians, Roman soldiers used terrible tactics to get people to recognize the Emperor as god. The children of Christians were occasionally tortured in front of their parents. Could I stand up under that? Let me be honest. I don't know.
  5. I see nothing in Scripture that would prevent a Christian from going into hiding to prevent being martyred. In fact, one of the ways the Christian faith spread was due to Christians fleeing the persecutions in Rome.
  6.  I most likely would have encouraged the early church to welcome those who caved under the realities of torture and death in the Coliseum yet would understand the feelings of those whose loved ones had been martyred.
  7.  I believe that the Oregon shooter was desperately mentally ill and agree that he could have been a schizophrenic. He was most certainly delusional. Let me put it this way. Suppose he came into the school and said he would shoot all people who had dogs. My guess is that everyone would lie about that one. This man was not thinking clearly and should never have been out on the street. 
  8. I do not believe that this situation constitutes a coordinated Christian persecution. Instead, it is the act of a madman who probably doesn't even comprehend what "Christian" really means. Some just assume that he does. The time to assess his understanding is not while he is wielding weapons.
  9. Wouldn't it be best to try to stay alive, help others to stay alive and even try to take down the shooter?

So, I believe in this situation, I would lie and answer "No"  to his question "Are you a Christian?"  Now, let's open this up to discussion. I am truly willing to say that I might be wrong. 

Please join me in praying for all of those who have been so tragically affected by this incident.

Comments

Would You Say No? I Might. Was the Oregon Shooter a Persecutor of Christians or Delusional? — 259 Comments

  1. I hesitate to pretend to know what I would say, especially since no one has pointed a gun at me and asked me that.

  2. “lived in the basement of his mother’s house in Torrance…”

    Whoa!! He lived in his mother’s basement. 😯 He also must have been a blogger. Now that is evil….

  3. The issue of mental illness among young men like him, who seem to be the main perpetrators of such crimes (has there been a female school spree-shooter?)needs to be raised over & over. The profound disconnection these young men feel seem to be behind their pain & rage, over & over again. We need to gather them in to community where we can. It’s the loneliness & lack of feeling loved that makes them so vulnerable to acting out things that mental illness may tempt them to. So horribly horribly sad. A young man jumped off a bridge about 1/4 mile from where I am now a few weeks ago (mix of drug/use & mental health)…I an an experienced mental health worker with his age group, I wish I had known so I could have made cups of tea & sat on the bridge & listened to him. I always feel this way when these things happen.

    Saying that, stuff like ‘He was frequently seen wearing camouflage pants and combat boots’ makes me laugh as every guy I ever went out with in my teens/early 20’s probably looked that way, at least sometimes. Why this is considered an indicator is odd, unless I’m missing something in American culture.

    I also feel this wasn’t really a Christian persecution thing, in it’s truest sense, more a stupid young ‘oh, off to God with you, you idiot who believes that kind of cr#p’ (ed.) type of thing.

  4. This reminds me of what Philip Yancey said in his book Soul Survivor about Shusaku Endo. In that section, Yancey discusses Endo’s book Silence (which I have not read, but which I hope to read before the movie comes out soonish). The story has to do with a priest who (spoiler alert) denies his faith God in order to save others. Yancey had really positive things to say about the story and that always struck me as very different than what I had been taught. You should check out that chapter of Soul Survivor for sure.

    Sorry this comment is so convoluted. It would be easier if I could just say that I have read Silence, but I haven’t read it yet! 🙂

  5. The thing is, nobody in that classroom had any way of knowing for sure what this guy’s mental state was. All they knew was that a gunman was targeting Christians in such a way as to make death more likely than for others. How many of us understand the difference between mental illness and just plain evil?

    I could see myself potentially acting outraged and telling this jerkoff it was none of his damn business. That, and trying to recruit others to help me rush the guy if I was nearer the end of the line of people being targeted.

  6. News reports say that the guy was discharged from boot camp after 4 weeks, that he studied mass murderers, and he was enchanted with the IRA. I’d say he’s mentally ill, in some form or fashion. I may be wrong, but I don’t believe those shootings had anything to do with Christians.

  7. The Oregon shootings are not part of a coordinated attack on the Christian faith by any group but the actions of very ill individual (or at the very least an individual with a very distorted view of reality). It makes me think of the Montreal shooting of female engineering students in 1989. The shooter separated men and women and then opened fire on the women. That was not a coordinated attack by all men on all women. By that logic we would say that all men living in the basements of their mother’s houses are in fact haters of Christianity. I’m currently estranged from the Christian faith so can’t really answer the second question however I hope that I would stand up to the persecution of anyone whatever their faith, race, creed or sexual orientation. I did stand up to a group of racists and got the stuffing beat out of me behind a local gas station as a teen so I like to think I’d do it as an adult. However I didn’t have kids then and that changes everything. If someone denied their religion on pain of death (or their loved ones death) then that would be between them and their God. I think “Judge not lest ye be judged” would apply. To be honest, I would stand beside someone forced into that “Devil’s choice”. I have no desire to see essentially good people sent to H-E-double hockey sticks. And if God is truly loving, I don’t think he would either – just ask Peter.

  8. My feeling is that Christians are not required to answer the questions of crazy people. If I were held at gun point with a chance to survive, I would probably do anything that I could to plot a way out to help myself, others, and eventually neutralize the attacker.

    There are some people, in some circumstances, to whom we do not owe an answer to their questions.

    The apostle Paul escaped out of a meeting in a basket and slipped out of town.

    Jesus remained silent in the face of some of his accusers.

    It all depends on circumstances.

    But if the attacker is crazy, we are not required to dialogue with crazy people.

    I do not fault those who do, and lose their lives. They are heroes.

    But those who do not are not necessarily lesser spiritually.

  9. I think the three normal reactions to life-threatening situations are, fight, flight, or freeze. I don’t think we can be sure how we will react in a situation like that. I tend to think I would play dead….:)

  10. Persecution comes from the government, no? There’s been no suggestion that the US government has been lax in punishing people like this guy, who commit crimes against Christians.

    The Dalai Lama has urged his followers who are arrested by the Chinese government, and pressured to deny / renounce him, to do as they say. Many don’t.

  11. From what I can gather, I think the shooter was mentally ill and I also think the evidence we have right now points toward the idea that he targeted Christians. I do not believe his actions were a part of a coordinated attack against Christians but I do see a rising animus toward Christians in some quarters of our culture which may have been influential in his targeting them, but we’ll probably never know for sure.

    As to the question of proclaiming your identity as a Christian or not, I think of the Hebrew midwives in Exodus, Rahab and other times when it seems the course which is commended is not always the most straightforward.

  12. When I think of Christian martyrs, the first group that comes to my mind are the 5 missionaries, one of whom was Jim Elliott, killed by the Huaorani in Ecuador. They were killed because they were acting on their belief that God wanted them to try to bring the news of His redeeming love to a people who had never been exposed to it. They put themselves in harms way in obedience to what they felt the Lord would have them do.

    Going to a college class, while surely a good activity and necessary for our development as productive citizens, is not the same as doing an action with the expressed purpose of proselytizing.

    So, I might agree with you Dee, and say “no” as well. I also agree that those who might have denied being a Christian in that situation should not be shamed in any way, shape, or form.

    We are told not to deny Christ no matter what the cost. However, one cannot deny OR affirm something in front of an “audience” that is incapable of understanding what they are doing. IF this young man had had a psychotic break, there was no reason to think he had a rational explanation for hating Christians or an organized plan to persecute them.

    Do I think that Satan, being God’s sworn enemy, can and does use every opportunity he can to do harm to Christians? Absolutely. And I think that perhaps the very disturbed mind of this young man in Oregon was his chosen vehicle on that very sad day.

  13. This is a great blog post, Dee — very astute questions you ask. I so appreciate what you and Deb put out on TWW. Intelligent and thoughtful.

    My kids are more important than idealism. I can accomplish more good alive than i can dead. I would do my darnedest to stay alive and i’d like to think i’d be ready to take calculated risks to bring the shooter down.

  14. OP said: “I am going to go out on a limb and let you know where I am at. Throughout my Christian life, I have heard sermon after sermon praising those martyrs who have died for Christ. I admire so many of them. Perpetua is one of my heroes. I have often wondered, however, if there were instances in which it would be prudent, and even honoring to the life God gave me, to not blurt out my faith in some circumstances. With that in mind, here are a few of my thougts.(Always subject to change without advanced notice!) ”

    I saw a PBS special on the Titanic not long ago. One of those interviewed was the grandson of a man who had survived because he had gotten to a lifeboat, & he did not give up his place to anyone.
    The gentlman was asked how he felt about his grandfather’s action. He was very quiet for a minute (probably collecting his thoughts, & then he said something like: “I don’t know how I feel, because I don’t have any idea what *I* would do, in his place. Amd, with all respect, I don’t think that anyone knows, either. You would have to be in the same position in order to decide.”

    I thought this was a sensible & painfully honest reply……and I feel the same about this dilemma posed here. I have no idea what I would or would not do, & I pray that I never have to make that kind of a choice.
    I do know that I don’t have a very great supply of physical courage. ( I also don’t know how to swim, which I confess makes me even more afriad).
    What I do know, is that I have a horror of deep water. Enough, in fact, that it didn’t take any time for each of my would-be teachers to decide to let someone else give it a try. (I nearly drowned the lot of them, you see).

  15. @ Beakerj:
    I thin.k camo-style clothing is very widespread here, too, especially due to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    But… that description has him pegged as a possible member of or sympathizer with a paramilitary group or a “militia.” Or a “sovereign citizen” type.

    The thing is, you can go into any big chain store here (like Target, K Mart, Sears or J.C. Penney – kind of Tesco equivalents) and find camo t-shirts, camo-inspired streetwear of all kinds for kids and adults, plus camo for hunters. So, not uncommon at all.

  16. @ Kari:
    Have you seen the original Japanese version of Silence? It was made in the late 70s-early 80s and is very good.

  17. One thing I’m noticing here: white middle class evangelicals and fundies have gone all haywire over this.

    What about the mass murders in that church in Charleston? Where were they then? [:crickets:]

    Nobody, nobody, NOBODY in the US is being “persecuted” for their xtian beliefs. Yhe irony is how many column inches, web pages and TV and radio spots these kinds of proclamations fill up. I mean, if people really *were* being persecuted, they wouldn’t have access to, let alone own, this multitude of media outlets.

    But back to my main point: Charleston. I do not know why this horrible tragedy was not mentioned here, but I certainly do know that the good people who died in that attack were 1st and foremost targeted for their skin color. Their beliefs add a tragic, horrible irony to it all. And I did not see mainstream white evangelicals (let alone white fundies) rallying behind the victims’ families. No, they were all getting outraged over the SCOTUS decision and “being persecuted” by changes in federal law.

    Way to go, xtian culture. /sarcasm

  18. Anonymous wrote:

    My feeling is that Christians are not required to answer the questions of crazy people. If I were held at gun point with a chance to survive

    Some of the articles said that people who did not answer the guy were shot in the legs.

    So, I guess an option for Christians who were there was to keep silent and not answer either way, and get shot in the leg.

    Some of the articles are saying that according to the guy’s web sites (he was on a few sites, including MySpace – who still uses MySpace??), he was “anti-religious.”

    News reports said that on a dating site he was on, he stated wanted to do women with pagan beliefs, and I forget what else (Wiccan??), but he clearly did not want to date Christian women.

  19. Murderers of people will, by the very nature of this crime, be carried out by those who are deranged (mentally ill). If he purposely asks and then kills them when they say they are Christians, why do you haggle over his mental status? If we determine that Emperor Nero had a mental illness, does that rule out the charge of persecution? He used Christians as torches for crying out loud! Jesus warned us that this would happen to His followers. It will not happen by someone in their right mind!!

  20. Someone bursts into a room where you are gathered with others, asks one by one if the individuals are Christians, and shoots those who say yes. If you say no (and you’re a Christian), are you denying the faith? I don’t think so. I think your God-given survival reflex is operating as designed and you are following your instinct to preserve your life. Life is precious to God. He gave you the gift of life.

    The Oregon (or Columbine, or similar) shooting scenario is quite different from a climate of political persecution that unfolds slowly and where there’s no sudden disorientation as there is with a gunman bursting onto the scene. In the former case, I would probably say no. In the latter, I hope I’d say yes, but I might say no. Fear and self-preservation are gifts from God, and they usually work as per the design specs to compel you to use whatever means necessary to stay alive.

  21. In response to your question whether one should profess their faith even if it means certain death:

    Answering for myself, in this particular case where it is an absolute nut job trying to make a name for himself: easy decision. Why play his game? Of course if I see him blowing away people who profess their faith I will deny my faith to his face to save my life. There is nothing noble or sacred in dying at the hands of a nut job because I gave the”wrong” answer required for his little game.

    I will choose to save myself every single time anyway I can, so that I might be able to take him out myself if possible. My higher calling is to live for my family and be there for my family and if it takes me lying and saying “hell no, I’m not a Christian” I will absolutely do that in a situation such as this.

    Some of my friends of late have said I’m not a true Christian because of my writings of late, and this will give them more “proof” I suppose.

    Just trying to be real and speak what I believe.

  22. OP:

    …Instead, it is the act of a madman who probably doesn’t even comprehend what “Christian” really means. Some just assume that he does. The time to assess his understanding is not while he is wielding weapons.

    Thank you for bringing this up.

    I’m not sure what Mercer thought the word “Christian” meant. Had I been there, I might actually been one of the only people to ask him what he meant by that, if he asked me, “are you a Christian.”

    Then, I might have told him I’m not sure what label I would give to myself, so I don’t know.

    I still believe in some of the bare essentials of the Christian faith, but I’ve been wondering if much of the rest of it is bunk or true.
    Is believing in the bare bones of Christianity enough to make me Christian, would most others consider me one, would God? I don’t know.

    I’m not sure I’d know how to answer the “are you a Christian” question at this point.

    Based on what I’ve read on various news sites, Mercer seemed mentally ill, but I do think he had some issues against people of faith.
    I don’t think it’s an either/or situation, but a bit of both.

    Maybe in the weeks to come, the police will release the manifesto he gave to one guy at the scene, along with any other information they got off his computer, so the public will get a more rounded picture of what motivated him.

    At this stage, with what we know, IMO, it’s kind of hard to come to a firm conclusion about why he did what he did.

    Probably my biggest fear in life was my mother dying. That came to pass a few years ago, and I’m recovering from that.

    So I’m not sure if a young kid at a college pointing a gun at me at this point would phase me much or not. I really don’t know. It might make me so angry, that rather than be afraid, I would be hopping angry and indignant.

    I had that reaction over my life, when bullies bigger than me would pick fights with myself or other people. My mother raised me to be a doormat in regards to my own safety, so I seldom defended myself, but I often stuck up for others I saw being harassed.

    If the bullies I saw were picking on another person, I would physically insert myself between the bully and the target on some occasions and confront the bully, even if the bully was physically larger than myself. My anger at them outweighed my fear.

    My sister has been held up at gun point at two or three jobs she had, and one night at a gas station when she was filling her tank.

    I would imagine she would probably be pretty calm if she had been in the classroom that day and Mercer walked in since she’s been in that situation before.

  23. No, this is a crazy person. The world is full of them…..listen to conspiracy radio, and they will claim the government was behind this murder…..

    And what would I do if I was confronted by a madman concerning my faith? Until I am in that situation, I do not know.

  24. Eagle wrote:

    Whoa!! He lived in his mother’s basement. He also must have been a blogger. Now that is evil….

    No, he was a basement-dwelling blogger who criticized Robert Morris and other preachers!

  25. This reminds me of the movie “Dave” (Kevin Kline looks just like the President of the US, and has a talent for impersonating him. He is hired to double for the president for a few brief moments. He does so well, they ‘extend things’, and he occupies the white house and oval office for a while.)

    He and a secret service officer have a conversation.

    “So, you’d really take a bullet for the president?”

    “Why, certainly.”

    “That means, then…… that you’ take a bullet for me.”

    Slowly the reality dawns on the secret service man. Is he now expected to take a bullet for an imposter, a fake, a phony?
    ——

    I also think of ‘Tank Man’ — the man who stood in front of a column of tanks on June 5, 1989, the morning after the Chinese military had suppressed the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 by force. He made a huge statement for freedom and against tyranny to a world he knew was watching. Freedom for his country and his fellow citizens was at issue. This was the real deal.

    A mentally ill person who suddenly thinks he has power because he’s holding the gun is not something worth dying for.

    (I haven’t thought through the implications of everything I’ve written here — I sincerely apologize if any of it is insensitive, ignorant,….)

  26. No.

    I think people like Todd Starnes and that lieutenant governor are selling nonsense, but it’s being eaten up by people who believe Christians really are being persecuted.

    Not when there are churches on every street corner, you’re not being persecuted.

    Not when teachers and school districts have to be warned about bringing sectarian Christian prayers in public schools attended by everyone, you’re not being persecuted.

    Not when a woman who disobeyed her oath of office, goes to jail and is lionized upon her release by two Presidential candidates, nope, that’s not being persecuted.

    Seriously, the claim of being persecuted by today’s conservative American Christians is for the most part bogus. It’s one of the things that is going to keep me outside the household of faith, because that kind of self-aggrandizement (and ESPECIALLY going to the press and crying persecution!) is annoying.

    I think this young man was desperately ill and we can’t account for what he said when he was in the grips of his delusion. Todd Starnes and that lieutenant governor just show where their own minds are at when they’ll seize on a sick person’s ravings.

  27. @ Tom R:
    I knew I liked you for the first day I called you and said” You probably haven’t heard of us but we write a blog.” I liked and respected you then and I still do.

  28. Longtime reader but extremely infrequent commenter here. I, as a rank amateur in the world of journalism, once had a chance to interview Cassie Bergnall’s mother. All I remember from that interview is Cassie’s mother’s eyes: haunted, grief-stricken, still in shock months after the Columbine shooting. At the time, I couldn’t relate. Now, unfortunately, I know the unfathomable sorrow of losing a child in an inexplicable moment of tragedy. I want to remind everyone that you cannot know what it’s like unless you have been there. May our thoughts be kind toward Cassie’s parents and others who have lost a son or a daughter. Regardless of the circumstances, such a loss is a sadness that clings to us for the rest of our days.

  29. I remember hearing a popular speaker say that he doesn’t call himself a Christian, because he doesn’t like what others have made Christianity into. I know what he means.

    Agreed, nobody knows what they would do in such a situation. But on hearing of this situation, and wondering how I would have responded, my first thought was, “How do you define Christian?”. Whether that would come out of my mouth, I don’t know. But I’m not sure that I fit most people’s definition.

  30. Tom R wrote:

    I will choose to save myself every single time anyway I can, so that I might be able to take him out myself if possible.

    Agreed, this isn’t a lifetime witness, this is just some nutjob that I have to survive and hopefully distract and disable. Even in non-stressed occasions I avoid the “christian” label, it has too much baggage.

  31. I don’t know what I would do, but I don’t think I would think less of someone who lied in a way which I think is something like what the Hebrew midwives did. Though I have intentionally avoided the news about this and just about everything else, it isn’t news that people politicize the “gun issue” just like some people politicize any issue.

    The guy from Tennessee is no more unhinged from reality, IMO, than the people who would like to institute firearm prohibition or its functional equivalent. Criminals get what they want if it is made anyplace. That is just reality. Christians *are* being persecuted and killed for their faith, but not systematically here.

    There is mostly silence about Christian persecution overseas because no one dares to talk about what it would take to stop or at least mitigate it. So we talk about easy “persecution” on the one hand or deny that certain ideologies really do want to kill the infidels. I think it dishonors those Christians to pretend that we are being persecuted here. I also think it is foolish to think that we might never be subject to it in some form.

    IMO, the reason that we get the polarized reactions (other than gathering eyeballs for advertisers or votes for politicians on both sides) of “Christians are being persecuted” and “guns should be confiscated” is that neither side is willing to do the things which might actually make a difference. Back in the 80’s there was a push to de-institutionalize the mentally ill. There is now an emphasis on the rights of the mentally ill, and my understanding is that it is more difficult to confine people who are dangerous to themselves or others. “Liberals” don’t want the mentally ill stigmatized, and “conservatives” don’t want individual rights impinged. So instead, we get rhetoric because rhetoric makes the speaker feel virtuous, regardless of the side.

    I agree with those who said that there was nearly enough talk about the Charleston shootings by evangelicals. And I also think that there is not nearly enough talk about the urban carnage that happens every single night, even in “gun-free” cities. If someone dares to speak frankly about racism (I have in mind real racism) *or* about urban violence and the causes of both, they are shouted down or accused.

    I have another question. Assuming a Christian is carrying a firearm, does that Christian have a moral duty to intervene in a situation like Oregon? Would the use of that firearm against the killer be different in principle from charging him?

    Thanks for raising some provocative questions and for the thoughtful responses. I hope I have not crossed the boundary into politics, because politicization of everything is the main reason I avoid the “news.”

  32. Bill M wrote:

    Even in non-stressed occasions I avoid the “christian” label, it has too much baggage.

    Half the time I don’t even know what the other person is thinking when they use the term.

  33. GSD wrote:

    “How do you define Christian?”. Whether that would come out of my mouth, I don’t know. But I’m not sure that I fit most people’s definition.

    I think this is the crux of the argument.

  34. mirele wrote:
    Which of the Usual Suspects was it who said the Christians who were killed by ISIS were not real Christians because doctrine? I wonder if that person agrees that “real” Christians here are being persecuted? The disconnect from reality is quite stunning.

  35. @ numo:
    No! I didn’t know about it until I was writing the earlier comment. I am interested to see what Scorsese will do with it.

  36. Dear Dee and Deb,
    (Please feel free to publish this or not. My prayers for you as always.)

    I personally don’t know that there is a persecution of Christians on a national level. I think that would be a rather strong claim. I myself, in any case, am an Anglican whose chief Broad Church doctrine is tea, so I’m not likely to suffer much persecution no matter who wins the culture wars. That being said, online and on campuses, which is where much of this alleged sentiment festers, I do think conservative evangelicals have a point, at least to a certain extent. Whether or not this incident was motivated by religious hatred, online the New Atheist and Christian survivor communities, to be frank, can be every bit as nasty, sometimes nastier, than their opponents.

    It’s for instance, very hard now to have any sort of sensible conversation about what represents clinical best practice for helping trauma victims without being pigeonholed into either an “ally” or “victim blamer” position. Often times, these labels make little sense. It’s one thing to express the kind of sensible concerns that WW generally expresses, particularly about abhorrent leaders like Doug Wilson or C.J. Mahaney. But it’s another thing when one feels one is going to be labeled victim-blaming simply because you realize that there were very real cases of false charges in the church in the 80’s and 90’s, something that the survivor community fails to acknowledge to its detriment. Its also rather depressing to hear such claims often reduced to the concerns of white male patriarchs, since historically any basic understanding of U.S. history would point out how much more likely people of color and working class people are to suffer from such charges (for an early example of this, I would reference the Mary Fagin case).

    It’s quite easy to say “always believe the victims” when you’re not hailing from the social classes which are most likely to be hit hard by false charges in the first place. I’m not blaming any individual person, much less WW, which is typically a voice of reason on such issues. Nor am I shedding tears for ministries like SGM and BJU that have been rightly taken to task for their failure to protect victims. All I’m trying to say is that sometimes the extremeness of the anti-Christian sentiments on certain survivor and New Atheist websites do feed what can only be characterized as anti-Christian prejudice. Denying that it happens does not make it so.

    I routinely see such prejudice directed at my Christian students on quite dubious grounds, and I am hardly someone known for being a friend of the religious right (I’m actually fairly well known for not being such a friend). There are many things wrong with the contemporary church. I’d be the first to admit it, which is why I believe in a human Jesus + tea, rather than a deity Jesus + the cross at this point. But I would just ask how much we are really serving anyone by turning into the very fanatics survivor movements supposedly condemn.

    For me, I can’t be a part of that anymore. In the last month, I have a seen a friend dealing with a life-threatening situation to her son be brutally chewed out for 2 hours by evangelical survivors because she used – very likely accidentally – the wrong pronoun to refer to transgender people. She has retreated from association with the survivor community, a community that should have been helping her out. And I have had to retreat from it as well, even though it might have been able to help me and I might have been able to help the community as well.

    Anyway, guys, sorry for a long winded ramble, and I totally respect all the people here at WW, commenters as well as Dee and Deb. I’m sorry if I sound morose. I just worry that a survivor community that started out with such promise may end up turning into a mirror image of what we all fled from. But perhaps I’m wrong.

  37. For me it’s fairly cut and dried. There may not be systematic persecution in the United States (yet), but when you are staring down the barrel of the gun and an unbalanced person (of whatever stripe) momentarily holds the power of life and death over you, you are being persecuted.

    May God give each of us the grace in that situation to boldly carry our cross outside the gate and die for him if necessary. I know that I am a mild-mannered middle-class American and no keyboard Rambo. I get scared jumping off the high dive. It’s easy to talk about what you would do in a given scenario, and a lot harder to actually do it in real life. I believe that when and if the time comes God gives to each of us dying or martyring grace which we would not experience, or require, in more tranquil moments.

    Luke 12:8-12 is sobering. I do not want to go into eternity denying the Lord who bought me with his own blood.

    Yes, Mr. Mercer, I am a Christian.

  38. Cindy Meyers wrote:

    Murderers of people will, by the very nature of this crime, be carried out by those who are deranged (mentally ill). If he purposely asks and then kills them when they say they are Christians, why do you haggle over his mental status? If we determine that Emperor Nero had a mental illness, does that rule out the charge of persecution

    For two adult Sunday school classes, I developed a course on the history on the persecutions of the early church. I learned so much from it. I am somewhat of a history buff as well as a theology nerd. To balance that all off I like dystopian fiction, science fiction and medical thrillers. 🙂

    Here is the difference between the RomanEmperors versus a lone wolf, delusional shooter like the guy in Oregon. The emperors did not function in a vacuum. In fact, not only did the Senators go along with the persecutions, so did the ordinary citizens. The Coliseum was open to the population who came and cheered on the lions, etc. It was considered a good days entertainment.

    There was an intricate system for those who disobeyed the law. So, the jail system, etc. was run by those who supported or decided not to buck the Roman Law.

    Would you say that the entire Roman populace was schizophrenic or delusional and that there is no difference between one nutty guy functioning alone and the vast Roman Empire?

    Did you know that the martyrdom of Perpetua, who was still nursing a baby and her maid, Felicitasi who had just given birth, in 200AD (@203) is believed by many historians to the beginning of the end for the Roman population’s support for martyrdom.

    As the story goes,Perpetual, who had been nursing her infant (the infants were not sent into the Coliseum) appeared in the stadium, stripped of clothes. Her breasts, along with her maid’s breasts, were leaking milk and this caused concern in the stands. For some reason, these simple and peaceful women were seen as a mothers of babies and this caused rising angst on the part of the onlookers.

    They were both attacked by a wild animal and the command was given to finish them quickly off by sword to release them from their suffering. The crowd was also apparently demanding that this happen quickly as well. It is reported that the soldier did not aim correctly and struck the bones in her neck instead which caused terrible pain.

    Perpetual then grabbed the sword and helped the soldier guide it to her neck so that she would die quickly. She appears to be have been one lovely, brave woman whose death was the beginning of the end for such shows in Rome.

    I will have to disagree with you. The whole history of the persecution of the early Christians falls on the back of all the Romans, including those who went to the Coliseum to cheer on the slaughter.

  39. Cayuga wrote:

    when you are staring down the barrel of the gun and an unbalanced person (of whatever stripe) momentarily holds the power of life and death over you, you are being persecuted.

    I am curious. If that same person had, instead, decided to kill all those who went to an Ivy League college, would you consider that as persecution as well? And, if that person was proven to be delusional, and could not, in fact, define what it was he didn’t like about those who attended Ivy League schools would that still be persecution?

    What about the guy who, for no reason shot and killed that young woman in San Francisco? Was that some form of persecution?

    What if the Oregon shooter, had he lived, said he was killing Christians because they believed thatJesus was an alien, would you then consider that he was persecuting Christians?

    Finally, what do you mean by persecution? And how do you know what he meant when he said he wanted to kill Christians?

    I am not trying to overwhelm you with questions.I am trying to show you how many things I think about when i confront a subject like this.

  40. @ John Weaver:
    Hope you don’t mind me breaking your comment into sections. It is easier to read since blog text tends to run together.

    I would be interested to know the story behind what you have to say. Yes, we can all be unkind to one another. Sometimes, for victims, they have been disbelieved for so long, that there is peace in finally being heard. If some of their perspectives get challenged, they can almost have a PTSD reaction, fearing that they will once again be hurt and mistreated.

    Part of thee problem when it comes to issues like child sex abuse, is that the statistic as quite clear that only about 4-6% of the claims are false and many of those stem from ugly divorce situations. Some people, like me, tend to believe victims not only due to the statistical probability of their claims but because I have spent some time in getting to know them. I tend to see patterns in their accounts that lead me to trust their accounts. I do not do so lightly.

    I would love to hear more from you. Is there anyway you could put your concerns into a situation so that I can understand how what you say gets lived out in real life? I would feel so bad if I inadvertently cause pain to anyone who is struggling with an abuse issue. I would be happy to tell their story here and I would protect their identity.

  41. @ John Weaver:
    I share your concern, at least as I understand it. We live in a world where each of us can find as much confirmation bias as we want, a world of all kinds of Political Correctness which studiously avoids mentioning facts but rather emotion devoid of facts. I say that as an overly-emotional person.

    It’s a world where attention spans do not exceed 140 characters and beyond that is TL;DR. Throw into this that younger people have no living memory of a world where people were proud if they “spoke their minds” about just about anything and the world did not end. You can no longer have a vigorous discussion on facts or logic or someone is liable to melt down. We cannot talk about real problems, and so we will never discover, much less implement, real solutions or even move in that direction. I am thankful for the places like TWW and like-minded blogs that provide a place where survivors can be heard and where dissent is also permitted. Rebutted firmly at times, but not disallowed. 🙂

    I cannot imagine what the climate is like in academia. My sympathies.

  42. Bookish wrote:

    Now, unfortunately, I know the unfathomable sorrow of losing a child in an inexplicable moment of tragedy.

    I am so, so sorry for you loss. It breaks my heart as I try to imagine your pain. I stopped and prayed for you before I wrote this. If you would ever want to tell you story here, please know the blog is here for you.

    I hope you understand my comment on Cassie in the way that it was intended. I have no doubt that Cassie is in the presence of inexpressible peace with the Savior. It is not a negative if she didn’t say she was a Christian as she died. She was one and, in the end, that is what counts. May her mother find peace in that.

    This post is to debate the whether or not it is necessary for Christians to declare their faith if they are faced with a delusional madman. It is not to point fingers, good or bad, toward anyone who had to go through such a horror. I am so sorry if that it came off that way.

  43. @ elastigirl:
    You are always so supportive. Thank you for your kind comment. I was concerned that people would not be pleased with my thoughts on the matter.

  44. dee wrote:

    I am curious. If that same person had, instead, decided to kill all those who went to an Ivy League college, would you consider that as persecution as well? And, if that person was proven to be delusional, and could not, in fact, define what it was he didn’t like about those who attended Ivy League schools would that still be persecution?
    What about the guy who, for no reason shot and killed that young woman in San Francisco? Was that some form of persecution?
    What if the Oregon shooter, had he lived, said he was killing Christians because they believed thatJesus was an alien, would you then consider that he was persecuting Christians?
    Finally, what do you mean by persecution? And how do you know what he meant when he said he wanted to kill Christians?
    I am not trying to overwhelm you with questions.I am trying to show you how many things I think about when i confront a subject like this.

    It depends what hill you believe is worth dying on. If pressed at gunpoint to deny my Ivy League degree, I would throw the Brown Alumni Association under the bus in a heartbeat. I would suddenly become an alumnus of the New Mexico Institute of Mines, if necessary. My alma mater, however, has no say in my eternal destination, nor did it die for me.

    Nor am I under any great compulsion to be a martyr. Run away, throw hot coffee in his eyes, give him a swift kick in the Driscolls, do what you have to do. Live to fight another day, sure. Maybe this madman isn’t worth dying for. Maybe I don’t want to give him the satisfaction.

    I suppose the bottom line is never deny Jesus Christ. I may be shy when it comes to witnessing or evangelizing, but I never want to actually deny that I’m a Christian.

  45. dee wrote:

    This post is to debate the whether or not it is necessary for Christians to declare their faith if they are faced with a delusional madman. It is not to point fingers, good or bad, toward anyone who had to go through such a horror. I am so sorry if that it came off that way.

    No, it did not come across as pointing fingers. I just want to encourage everyone to be gentle toward one another because we don’t know one another’s pain. If Cassie’s mother is reading here, I hope she will feel loved. That’s all. Carry on, you are doing a good job of bringing up important issues!

  46. “This tragedy is still being investigated, so we need to approach the anecdotal reports with a grain of salt.” is an interesting remark on a blog which often says things like “no charges have been brought but all of the reports speak for themselves…”.

  47. Cayuga wrote:

    Luke 12:8-12 is sobering. I do not want to go into eternity denying the Lord who bought me with his own blood.

    What sobers me even more is the possibility of hearing the shrieks of my children and little dogs under torture. If that’s the price of fealty to this god, I won’t pay it, and I will do everything in my power up to and including lies and deception to save my family.

  48. @ numo:
    I read a fair number of blogs of Christians many of them white bloggers. They did dedicate posts to the Charleston shooting. Maybe you need to read more often.

  49. John Weaver wrote:

    That being said, online and on campuses, which is where much of this alleged sentiment festers, I do think conservative evangelicals have a point, at least to a certain extent. Whether or not this incident was motivated by religious hatred, online the New Atheist and Christian survivor communities, to be frank, can be every bit as nasty, sometimes nastier, than their opponents.

    I’m with you on this one. I live in a small community dominated by the local university and Oregon may be the farthest thing from the bible belt and still stay in the US. I definitely don’t think it rises to the level of persecution, but the antagonism is not imagined. This is also a place where some years back they didn’t fly the flag over the new city library because they didn’t want to offend, so it has a mixture of things that determines who is in and who is out.

    Decades ago there was a debate on campus whether to ban preachers out on the university commons. At the time there were those who claimed they were persecuted for Christ but were in fact suppressed because they were obnoxious. That said there were a number of such obnoxious folk who ground their axein the public square but only one group was singled out. This type of double standard has played out many times since. It appears the fate of any majority of people to be insensitive to their own hypocrisy, especially when they think they are immune.

    Given some of the many intolerant people I’ve run across here I would extrapolate some could easily join in a persecution, but there are too many victims to make persecution a safe bet so it will stay merely a soft bigotry against those they do not understand. As much as I dislike smug christianity, the university suffers the same determinant, pride.

  50. Cayuga wrote:

    Luke 12:8-12 is sobering. I do not want to go into eternity denying the Lord who bought me with his own blood.

    Here’s to hoping more than the last 5 seconds of my life define me. I’m betting on a more reasonable judgement.

  51. numo wrote:

    What about the mass murders in that church in Charleston? Where were they then? [:crickets:]

    Numo, I saw Christians post quite a bit about the Charleston shootings, and the focus was very much on the victims and their families. Most of what I saw was in my Facebook feed.

  52. Cayuga wrote:

    but I never want to actually deny that I’m a Christian.

    Some people understand or define the word “Christian” differently than others.

    Is denying one goes by the label “Christian” the same as denying Jesus? I’m asking that in part because I really don’t know, and also that I’m not so sure they are necessarily one in the same.

  53. Debi Calvet wrote:

    I saw Christians post quite a bit about the Charleston shootings, and the focus was very much on the victims and their families. Most of what I saw was in my Facebook feed.

    I saw a bunch of stuff about it by Christians and all sorts of other people when it was going on in my social media as well.

    Regular Joes (who were Christians, some who were not) were posting about it, news organizations, there were news articles and editorials all over the place the day it happened and over the next couple of weeks.

    Was that the same incident that started the debates over the Confederate Flag?
    If yes, oh man, everyone and their grandma was posting about that forever on my social media. I thought I’d never see the end of that.

  54. An elderly lady up in China, was routinely arrested by the police, tourtoured, usually by being forced to drink boiling water,refused to deny her faith. And eventually fed up with how many young police became Christian because of her the authorities stooped arresting her. At the same period of time many mainland Chinese pastors and other believers fled China

  55. The issue for me is the victims and the families that have lost a family member. How do you get over that lost?

  56. @ Kari:
    It worries me that Scorsese is directing, because subtlety is not exactly his strong suit. The Japanese movie is quiet and vety attunded to personal and cultural nuances. Much more satisfying than some big Hollywood treatment, even though working with a relatively low budget. I don’t know how Endo felt about it, but i cannot imagine that Scorsese will do justice to his work.

  57. What if the shooter was a nutcase “Christian” blowing away non-“Christians”?

    What if you did not know which answer you gave one gets randomly blown away?

    There is another story about this shooter that he was targeting women because he was not getting laid and no women wants to be with him.

    What if the lunacy was not so much of the shooter but of the society at large and the institutions? There is LOT of evidence this is where the lunacy is.

  58. @ numo:
    The original film succeeds in giving a “voice” to the Catholics of Japan, and to a period of history that is glossed over there, and almost unknown here. It is very important to keep in mind that the repression of that period was very much about stopping foreigners from seizing control of Japan, and is oversll more of a political and cultural thing. I am not trusting Scorsese to get that and other nuances, though i hope I’m happily surprised by the movie.

    The xtians are from southen Japan. One of the structures at ground zero in Hiroshima is a Catholic church. Amazingly, some of the structure was/is still intact.

  59. @ Donna:
    Oh, i read all the time, but not the same things that you’re reading. Nor did i see much of anyone trying to truly bresk through bartiers at thst time. But i am only one person, and just cannot read everything. The media did focus a lot on people who use the Confederate battle flag, and who were outraged at demands thst it be removed from goverment builfings and the like. The irony being that those battle flags disappeared during Reconstruction and only went up agsin during the Civil Rights era.

    There is a conversation that’s been over 100 years in the making, and it’s still not happening.

  60. @ Bill M:
    Parts of Oregon and Washington are smack in the middle of their own Bible Belt. Eadt of the Cascades is nothing like Seattle and Portland.

  61. @ Debi Calvet:
    I don’t read political or religious posts on FB, because it is just too much. (A lot of tense, angry discussions.) I mostly focus on music, art, books and animal rescue over there.

  62. We will all one day face death.
    What an honor to proclaim with my last words,
    “I belong to JESUS, HE is my LORD and SAVIOR”

  63. A question to all,
    So, what would the YRR, GOSPEL(TM) leaders say to the OP question? Given they seem to know the answers and write the “Covenant agreements” that we are all supposed to sign, and they control “the keys”, surely they have an answer to this???

  64. I always think about the Hebrew midwives of the OT. They lied to the Pharoah about the women giving birth to the boy babies “they deliver so fast we can’t get there in time!” AND the result…God BLESSED those midwives and gave them children of their own. I believe there is a legitimate time that we do NOT OWN TRUTH to EVIL…and sometimes when we do and should be willing to pay the price. That place of tension…will be different for different individuals. There are legalistic beleivers that say…you would have to tell the truth to a Nazi when you hid a Jew in the basement. Really? You would already be “breaking the law” by hiding them in the first place. I have taught my kids that you can lie to a potential abductor and say your dad is a cop. Is that wrong? I don’t think so. I like this conversation….one evil deranged soul does NOT equal a government.

  65. You all might be interested in this.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm

    I would have no hesitation to lie in order to save a life, either mine or someone else’s, and I would do this either with or without the mental shenanigans described in the link.

    This was the big question when i was a teen: would it be a sin to lie to the gestapo by saying that you were not hiding Jews when in fact you were. We all agreed that, sin or not, we would lie to the gestapo.

  66. Why would anyone be under any obligation to a deranged person’s demand? I wouldn’t forfeit my life or the life of anyone to a madman’s insane question. On the other hand, I deny Christ every day and every day he forgives me.

  67. “I do not believe that this situation constitutes a coordinated Christian persecution. Instead, it is the act of a madman who probably doesn’t even comprehend what “Christian” really means. Some just assume that he does. The time to assess his understanding is not while he is wielding weapons.
    Wouldn’t it be best to try to stay alive, help others to stay alive and even try to take down the shooter?
    So, I believe in this situation, I would lie and answer “No” to his question “Are you a Christian?””

    And Nero was not a madman?…with weapons at his disposal?
    This has more in common with the spirit of the age than with any teaching in God’s Word.

  68. Mental? Delusional? Spiritual? Or perhaps demonic … a discussion the church avoids these days.

  69. Well, maybe not fair, since I am trained in crisis-resolution, but I wouldn’t reply yes or no (to be honest, I have a deeply rooted loathing of proposed binaries, since they rarely exist in real life). I would probably reply by asking his name. And if he was within a step or two, I would control the weapon and then subdue him. But if saying “no” would save more lives, that’s the route I would go.

  70. @ Gram3:

    I can’t do much on the computer. The eye is still not right, and I don’t see well enough with the other eye alone to read. They tell you that cataract surgery has something like a 98% success rate. What they do not emphasize is that this means ‘eventually’ and unless you have surgery on a day that ends with the letter y.

  71. Clay Crouch wrote:

    On the other hand, I deny Christ every day and every day he forgives me.

    That is quite a relevant point. If denying Christ is an unforgivable mortal sin somebody forgot to tell Jesus, judging from the ‘do you love me’ thing with Peter.

  72. I do believe that there are many in society in the US who harbor dislike and hatred for Christianity and Christians.

    This can and does manifest itself in the form of persecution, though it often does not look like what we may think.

    It is hard to get jobs in certain fields and in certain parts of the country if you are a person of faith and that becomes known.

    I worked at an office one time, and when one of my co-workers heard that i was being considered for hire, he said, “Oh, no. He’s a Bible thumper.” He had known me in high school. I was devout. He was not, though his grandparents and mother were, so he was leaving the faith in those years. I am not sure if he tried to influence the decision to hire me, but the context in which his comment was made indicated to me that he was.

    Interestingly, after I was hired, we worked together for a few years, and he came to respect me. He even moved back toward faith.

    I know that things like this happen all of the time. I believe that this is the type of persecution that goes on in the US.

    I also believe that the efforts to require Christians who own businesses to somehow participate in the weddings of gay people is often evidence of persecution. These cases fit a common pattern. I have not heard of any cases being brought against the owners of businesses who are of other faiths who don’t want to participate in gay weddings being the subject of these suits. I would be surprised to hear of gays suing the Muslim owners of a bakery or florists who did not want to participate in gay weddings.

    I am not trying to start an argument about that issue, but I am making note of the fact that Christians are usually involved.

    I also hear many people in society wanting to target churches with property and income taxes when that has never been part of US history. I do not think that this is Christian persecution because it would affect non-profits of all stripes, but the discussions I hear often speak of it in terms of “churches”, not educational institutions or non-profits like the Red Cross, United Way, the American Cancer society etc., which probably reveals a bias against churches.

    I have been waiting for the day that a judicial or agency nominee is openly opposed for his/her Christian faith. I know that has happened behind the scene, and it’s not put in terms of being against “Christianity” but only this person for supposed bias or something like that.

    College admissions, scholarships etc. are also fertile ground for this kind of thing.

    No one likes to admit bigotry against another religion in our society. So, it usually comes in other forms.

    Christians need to be smart about these things, and not claim persecution too quickly, or at all, unless it can be proved in spades.

    But to say it does not exist is naive, I believe.

    Claiming persecution is whiny. We should not do it. There are other ways to unmask it and turn it on those who would persecute us.

  73. Cayuga wrote:

    Nor am I under any great compulsion to be a martyr. Run away, throw hot coffee in his eyes, give him a swift kick in the Driscolls, do what you have to do. Live to fight another day, sure. Maybe this madman isn’t worth dying for. Maybe I don’t want to give him the satisfaction.

    okrapod wrote:

    This was the big question when i was a teen: would it be a sin to lie to the gestapo by saying that you were not hiding Jews when in fact you were. We all agreed that, sin or not, we would lie to the gestapo.

    I agree. A George S. Patton Jr. quote seems appropriate, “No dumb bastard ever won a war by going out and dying for his country. He won it by making some other dumb bastard die for his country.”

  74. Earlier in the thread somebody asked about a moral obligation to use one’s gun if one did concealed carry. I know that in my case, if I had gone to all the trouble of purchasing a handgun, taking a class, getting my permit, and continuing regular practice at the range (something any responsible gun owner should be doing), then yes I would consider myself obligated to use it to defend myself and others. A potential shootout inside one room is extremely risky, of course, but in a situation like this one, I’m not sure there would be much to lose.

  75. Aaron wrote:

    And Nero was not a madman?…with weapons at his disposal?
    This has more in common with the spirit of the age than with any teaching in God’s Word.

    Not sure what you mean. I don’t know if Nero was insane or evil or both. The situation was totally different to what we have, currently, in the West. What Christians are enduring in the Middle East and elsewhere is more like the circumstances in Rome. At some point, there may be a cultural shift in our own country against Christians such that Christians are killed or imprisoned merely because of our faith. I don’t think we are there yet in the U.S.

    I don’t know what you mean by the “spirit of the age” and what that has to do with the question.

  76. I can’t find that passage where Jesus said that in order to show we’re serious about our faith we need to carry weapons.

  77. Max wrote:

    Mental? Delusional? Spiritual? Or perhaps demonic … a discussion the church avoids these days.

    Because we’ve been on the receiving end of DEEEEMONS-under-every-bed Witchfinders-General like Bob Larson et al. I’m a veteran of the Satanic Panic in the Eighties; remember D&D?

    In the preface to Screwtape Letters, Lewis writes about “The two errors of our time about the race of Devils — either we deny their existence, or take an unhealthy interest in them; and the Devils hail a Materialist or a Magician with equal delight.”

    Max, you’ve seen only the Materialists. We’ve experienced the Magicians — Spiritual Warfare/Deliverance to the point of Superstition, like isangomas strutting through the kraal with their fly whisks, smelling out the Witches and Evil Spirits.

  78. Another topic, I get sick and tired of uninformed people doing this:
    “I certainly never examined Mr. Mercer, but these details, if true, may point to conditions like schizoid personality disorder, Asperberger’s syndrome or even schizophrenia, any of which can dramatically limit the ability to socialize and empathize with others, contribute to feelings of emptiness and isolation and spawn anything from intense depression to paranoid delusions. ”
    I have Aspergers. This guy does not even know how to spell Asperger’s syndrome, and he opines this motivates someone to kill? Aspergers is not a pathology or a mental illness. Aspies are no more likely to kill than anyone else.
    The myth that we are emotionless and have no compassion exist because of a compassion shortage in people who are not on the Autism spectrum. They only notice compassion / empathy if it is expressed in the exact subtlety of expression and words that someone like them would use to express it. People like me don’t always communicate well – our words are more labored if we speak, our gestures are different.
    But we have empathy. Some of us have an almost paralizing level of it – we stay at night worrying about people we never met.
    It is a myth that we are more likely to be killers. Please do not take the word of someone who cannot even spell Asperger’s. You will only start to treat people like me with ungrounded suspicion and hate. That is not just bad for us, but you will also miss out on all the great things we have to give other people.
    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20151006-its-time-we-dispelled-these-myths-about-autism

  79. lydia wrote:

    @ Bookish:
    I hate the fact these heinous crimes become about everything else but the actual victims.

    If you have an Activist(TM) mentality, the “heinous crime” is nothing more than “What an opportunity to Advance *MY* Agenda!!!!!”

  80. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    but I wouldn’t reply yes or no

    Some years ago I was helping with a non-profit booth at a county fair. The non-profit was not christian but Christ motivated. I had just arrived and my colleagues went for lunch leaving me alone. A few minutes later a young woman came up and started peppering me with questions that started putting words into my mouth and she eventually shouted you’re wrong and left in anger.

    At the time I referred to it as a “drive by”. The non-profit stressed communications and relationship so that incident prompted study, reading, and thought in an attempt that next time it would turn out different. Sensing hostility I would not answer the question, “are you one of the people I’m here to shoot”, whether real or metaphor, but would attempt to engage by asking my own questions and listening.

  81. Has the shooter’s Manifesto been released?
    (A lotta these guys have Manifestos these days; gives themselves More Importance.)

    If and when it is, that should provide a clue if not confirmation. The guy seems to have had a serious mad on about Christians; whether a Lone Wolf attack like this qualifies as Persecution(TM) depends on how you define the word. Like Lone Wolf copycats vs a 9/11.

  82. Anonymous wrote:

    I do believe that there are many in society in the US who harbor dislike and hatred for Christianity and Christians.
    This can and does manifest itself in the form of persecution, though it often does not look like what we may think.
    It is hard to get jobs in certain fields and in certain parts of the country if you are a person of faith and that becomes known.
    I worked at an office one time, and when one of my co-workers heard that i was being considered for hire, he said, “Oh, no. He’s a Bible thumper.” He had known me in high school. I was devout. He was not, though his grandparents and mother were, so he was leaving the faith in those years. I am not sure if he tried to influence the decision to hire me, but the context in which his comment was made indicated to me that he was.
    Interestingly, after I was hired, we worked together for a few years, and he came to respect me. He even moved back toward faith.
    I know that things like this happen all of the time. I believe that this is the type of persecution that goes on in the US.
    I also believe that the efforts to require Christians who own businesses to somehow participate in the weddings of gay people is often evidence of persecution. These cases fit a common pattern. I have not heard of any cases being brought against the owners of businesses who are of other faiths who don’t want to participate in gay weddings being the subject of these suits. I would be surprised to hear of gays suing the Muslim owners of a bakery or florists who did not want to participate in gay weddings.
    I am not trying to start an argument about that issue, but I am making note of the fact that Christians are usually involved.
    I also hear many people in society wanting to target churches with property and income taxes when that has never been part of US history. I do not think that this is Christian persecution because it would affect non-profits of all stripes, but the discussions I hear often speak of it in terms of “churches”, not educational institutions or non-profits like the Red Cross, United Way, the American Cancer society etc., which probably reveals a bias against churches.
    I have been waiting for the day that a judicial or agency nominee is openly opposed for his/her Christian faith. I know that has happened behind the scene, and it’s not put in terms of being against “Christianity” but only this person for supposed bias or something like that.
    College admissions, scholarships etc. are also fertile ground for this kind of thing.
    No one likes to admit bigotry against another religion in our society. So, it usually comes in other forms.
    Christians need to be smart about these things, and not claim persecution too quickly, or at all, unless it can be proved in spades.
    But to say it does not exist is naive, I believe.
    Claiming persecution is whiny. We should not do it. There are other ways to unmask it and turn it on those who would persecute us.

    I agree that claiming persecution is whiney and that we should not do it. The other things you listed are what I think falls under the category of discrimination, not persecution. Let’s save persecution for the real thing.

  83. This is the question that I was asking myself. I heard that if the victim was silent, the shooter killed them. I wondered if after the first person, all the people knew what his intentions were. The media has decided to not focus on the issue, which, to me, was the main issue with the shooter. I am Christian, and I am also an astrologer. I looked at the shooter’s chart. He had an obsession with religion coming from his early home. So…as a Christian, do I want everyone to know that I denied Jesus as my savior just so I could live? If I asked the shooter did he mean to ask if Jesus was our savior…I would back myself into a corner. And my husband would be angry with me because I was dead. Probably I would have annoyed the shooter with questions and he would have shot me dead anyway. I don’t think I could deny my faith in Jesus. I could not live with that, even though apparently St. Peter did.

  84. These are tough questions, and while the statistical chance that we would be victims of a mass shooting are truly negligible, these shootings are occurring with more frequency. The politics of gun control are one side of the conversation, but my feeling is that the mental health and sociological contributors to these kinds of situations are much more pressing.

    Eagle did a great job describing the mental health component in his blog post. The only thing I would add to this is the social phenomena of Amok Killings, here’s an article that I think does the topic justice:

    Inside the Minds of Mass Killers

    The article speaks to these sorts of killings as being “culture bound”, and while the killings are certainly much more than emblematic of cultural sickness to the communities and victims involved, they are markers of deep social illness, and as we have seen – each killing seems to inspire more because of the “benefits” conferred on the perpetrators. We live in a culture that glorifies depictions of violence in our art and media, and certain sick individuals see actual violence as a path to the glory that they feel has eluded them and is their due. Our deep cultural narcissism has much to do with this, where young people are being told by a myriad of voices that celebrity is something to be celebrated. All one has to do is tune in to one of the bevy of reality shows, or watch the myriads of awards shows to know that celebrity has become a cultural god that is a cruel, indulgent, and capricious as any of the gods of antiquity. The line between fame and infamy has even been erased in our elevation of celebrity, and still we are shocked when desperate, displaced, socially dislocated (typically) young men go the route of infamy to attain to celebrity and glory.

    As Christians, we do have a part to play in the broader cultural conversation over these outbursts of mass violence. The human craving for glory and immortality is as innate to us as breathing, however when this is coupled with the human bent toward evil, or mixed with deep seated mental illness the outcomes can be staggeringly violent. But, in Christ the offer for glory and immortality is real – a sure thing, but in this present age it is hidden in weakness and suffering, which we are all called to embrace as those who name the Name of Christ. The Christian message, among many other things is a call to delayed gratification, patience, as we learn to empathize with a suffering world often through our own suffering.

  85. Anonymous wrote:

    I do believe that there are many in society in the US who harbor dislike and hatred for Christianity and Christians.

    And : Muslims, Jews, women, Buddhists, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, American Indians, Latinos, soldiers, …………

  86. I’ve had a similar debate the last few days…would I say yes? I think I would, but, like you, I think I’d try and disarm him first. These madmen succeed because fear paralyses. I’d like to think I’d be the Christian who does indeed has no problem saying “yes”, but also the boldness to say, “You’re not winning this one jackass!” as I concurrently subdue and pray for him.

    Another point: can’t all persecution be categorized as “delusion”? Isn’t that what the Jews did who rejected Jesus? Of course, not all delusion leads to persecuting Christians. However, it seems that this Oregon shooter was heavily influenced towards that.

  87. Nancy2 wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    I do believe that there are many in society in the US who harbor dislike and hatred for Christianity and Christians.

    And : Muslims, Jews, women, Buddhists, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, American Indians, Latinos, soldiers,

    In my neck of the woods the only ones on the list that are socially acceptable to hate are christians and soldiers.

  88. Bill M wrote:

    In my neck of the woods the only ones on the list that are socially acceptable to hate are christians and soldiers.

    How about women who are both Christians and soldiers?
    (I had to ask. My husband is a retired soldier, and we don’t live very far from Ft. Campbell. The haters in your neck of the woods wouldn’t fare very well here!)

  89. John Weaver wrote:

    For me, I can’t be a part of that anymore. In the last month, I have a seen a friend dealing with a life-threatening situation to her son be brutally chewed out for 2 hours by evangelical survivors because she used – very likely accidentally – the wrong pronoun to refer to transgender people. She has retreated from association with the survivor community, a community that should have been helping her out. And I have had to retreat from it as well, even though it might have been able to help me and I might have been able to help the community as well.

    I have seen similar. It is the same sort of censoring/ shaming. Both sides do it.

    It does work though. People cannot discuss/debate serious issues for fear of damaging labels being assigned to them or ostracized from the group– so they don’t discuss/debate.

    We are all less for it.

  90. As to the issues and questions raise in this post, I have a slightly different take:

    As distasteful as I find the “persecution complex” of some Christian groups in this country, I do see this as an isolated incident of Christian persecution. Obviously it cannot be reduced to merely persecution, as it has certain social and psychological drivers that are quite typical of other mass killings, but when Mercer singles out Christians for execution it also becomes a Christian issue.

    As much as part of me is inclined to absolutize this issue based on my own convictions, I will preface this by saying that these are my convictions, and there is room for other opinions on the matter due to the freedom of Christian conscience.

    The Scriptures that influence my thinking on this are as follows:

    And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.(Revelation 12:11)

    Yes, and I will rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.(Philippians 1:18-23)


    And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.(Luke 9:23-26)

    “And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God, but the one who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God.(Luke 12:8-9)

    Precious in the sight of the LORD
    is the death of his saints. (Psalm 116:15)

    Maybe my Calvinist slip is showing here, and feel free to chalk it up to that, but I believe our lives and even deaths are in God’s hands. If God wills that my death come through state-sponsored persecution, or at the hands of a gun wielding madman, I must always confess the Name of the One who has first laid down his life for me. I cannot in my own conscience try to determine whether or not God would be better served by my life or by my death, but the promise of Scripture is clear ether way – “to live is Christ, to die is gain.” I sincerely hope I am never tested in this way, but if that day were to come, I pray for the strength to do whatever would be most pleasing to God.

  91. okrapod wrote:

    This was the big question when i was a teen: would it be a sin to lie to the gestapo by saying that you were not hiding Jews when in fact you were. We all agreed that, sin or not, we would lie to the gestapo.

    Brings up a whole nother’ discussion of ‘what is sin?’ and ‘what is it not?’

  92. This doesn’t relate to the theme answering whether you’re a Christian, but I teach young children and am daily in various schools. I have often prayed that if I encounter an active shooter, I would have the courage to protect my students as other teachers have done.

  93. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    “(to be honest, I have a deeply rooted loathing of proposed binaries, since they rarely exist in real life).”
    ++++++++++++

    you must hate the “Would You Rather…” game as much as I do.

    (“Hey, mom, would you rather eat camel boogers once or be forced to eat dog food for breakfast for the rest of your life?”)

  94. Anonymous wrote:

    I have been waiting for the day that a judicial or agency nominee is openly opposed for his/her Christian faith. I know that has happened behind the scene, and it’s not put in terms of being against “Christianity” but only this person for supposed bias or something like that.

    While I can’t cite a source right now, I believe objections to Francis Collins were raised by some for his Christianity at the time of his appointment as NIH Director.

  95. @ Kari:

    Kari, read the book before the movie comes out – it’s short. Books are always better than the movies made from them.

  96. The question of how to deal with Christians who recanted their faith in the face of the threat of death was a very real one for the bishops of the early 3rd century. The opinions ran the whole gamut. As I recall, it was finally decided that after a period of penance, which involved being denied the Eucharist, they were re-admitted into the church, without a lot of psychologizing. Mercy triumphed over judgment…

  97. Clay Crouch wrote:

    Why would anyone be under any obligation to a deranged person’s demand? I wouldn’t forfeit my life or the life of anyone to a madman’s insane question. On the other hand, I deny Christ every day and every day he forgives me.

    Like I said earlier, I really wouldn’t know how to answer the guy.

    I might have asked him to define what Christian meant to him, and ask him, “who are you, and why do you want to know?”

    It reminds me of this song from several years back:
    Are You Jimmy Ray?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWeLI93_oO4

  98. okrapod wrote:

    That is quite a relevant point. If denying Christ is an unforgivable mortal sin somebody forgot to tell Jesus, judging from the ‘do you love me’ thing with Peter.

    There is this:
    “But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.”
    (Matthew 10:33)

  99. Anonymous wrote:

    I do believe that there are many in society in the US who harbor dislike and hatred for Christianity and Christians.
    This can and does manifest itself in the form of persecution, though it often does not look like what we may think.

    A lot of people don’t like it when American Christians use the word “persecution,” but I find the words “discrimination,” “harassment” and “bullying” are entirely accurate, fair, and applicable in the cultural climate of the last couple of decades.

  100. @ Retha:
    I’ll add I have similar feelings anytime it is revealed that a public shooter had depression or was on anti-dep. meds.

    I used to take anti dep meds and have clinical depression. The only person a depressed person is going to hurt is herself.

    A depressed person is more apt to harm herself (via an overdose or noose around her own neck), or just curl up in a bed and cry all day, than have the energy, mindset, or motivation to pick up firearms and go on a shooting spree.

    So I never understand how or why some media reports attempt to connect depression with motivation, as to why some of these guys fire on other people.

  101. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    If you have an Activist(TM) mentality, the “heinous crime” is nothing more than “What an opportunity to Advance *MY* Agenda!!!!!”

    Victims become merely means to a desired end. Thanks to Bookish, Lydia, and you for pointing this out. ISTM that such a utilitarian view of victims means that having more victims (or manufacturing fake victims which devalues the real victims) is *better* for The Cause, and that strikes me as ungodly.

  102. Daisy wrote:

    Is denying one goes by the label “Christian” the same as denying Jesus? I’m asking that in part because I really don’t know, and also that I’m not so sure they are necessarily one in the same.

    That’s a great way to phrase it, Daisy. The early followers of Jesus didn’t call themselves Christians, but it was a derogatory term that others called them, first in Antioch. Should we ever call ourselves Christians, or should we leave that to others? Is it like calling yourself humble — If you call yourself humble, then you automatically aren’t.

    And if you write a book on humility… Oh, never mind.

    In our time, the word “Christian” has so much historical and cultural baggage that it’s hard to know what a person means when using it.

  103. @ Retha:
    Thank you for informing us about Asperger’s. It is something I know little about. I didn’t see the remark by the psychologist when he made it. Was he saying that Asperger’s itself might increase the risk of someone murdering people? Or was he remarking that this young man showed signs of Asperger’s without attributing the murders to the Asperger’s? Either way, it seems that a conversation is needed to clarify those issues.

  104. When I was in Africa I stayed for a time with a missionary family who were later assigned to a different country in Africa where the man in that family was killed in an isolated attack-one victim and more than one attacker. At the time IIRC the attack was presented as not religiously motivated. Later I saw that he was listed as a martyr. I don’t know what to make of that. Obviously he died in the line of duty, but where is the line that says martyr or not martyr. And does it matter?

    His name was Archie Dunaway. You can still find him if you google.

  105. I would like to point out, as an individual with Asperger’s Syndrome, that autism does not cause the kind of character flaws and/or mental illness that make a person a murderer. Autism makes emotion more overwhelming, but it does not create the self-loathing necessary for slaughter. Obviously, there may be other factors involved which can make an Aspie a killer, but Asperger’s itself is not the cause.

    Incidentally, please pray for my cousin. He lost two good friends in the shooting.

  106. Muff Potter wrote:

    Brings up a whole nother’ discussion of ‘what is sin?’ and ‘what is it not?’

    Exactly! Seriously, when one is dealing with pure evil (I think calling it a mental illness is insulting to people with mental illnesses who would never harm a soul) the goal is to protect the innocents. Unfortunately, that might mean a decent and good person with a gun. (GASP!) We so often make these situations into either/or dichotomies. I really wish we had a better grip on good/evil which is really a convo on what is sin.

    I understand the victims and their families need privacy but I always wish they were the sole focus. These were people going about their normal lives. They seem to get lost in all the focus on this or that. I have not read up on this particular tragedy but if one person lost their life by saying “yes”, I am loathe to judge them for it or even discuss it as persecution even if I don’t understand why.

  107. Jed Paschall wrote:

    Maybe my Calvinist slip is showing here, and feel free to chalk it up to that, but I believe our lives and even deaths are in God’s hands. If God wills that my death come through state-sponsored persecution, or at the hands of a gun wielding madman, I must always confess the Name of the One who has first laid down his life for me. I cannot in my own conscience try to determine whether or not God would be better served by my life or by my death, but the promise of Scripture is clear ether way – “to live is Christ, to die is gain.” I sincerely hope I am never tested in this way, but if that day were to come, I pray for the strength to do whatever would be most pleasing to God.

    You have just explained why I cannot subscribe to Calvinism. Life is very valuable. It is us humans who devalue it, not God. And the more we value what is valuable the more “human” (Image of God) we are. The more evil we do, the less human we are. Yes, we all die and will rise again. A beautiful promise but not one I think scripture is advocating we hasten to come. I think the real message is for us to strive to change what we can here and now. Be the kingdom. Cure cancer, protect innocents, etc, etc. Humans have done so much over the centuries toward valuing humans by improving life while others have done much to devalue. Why do we accept the latter as “normal”? There is much work to do and pass on to our children. Yes, time is short.

  108. Gram3 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    If you have an Activist(TM) mentality, the “heinous crime” is nothing more than “What an opportunity to Advance *MY* Agenda!!!!!”

    Victims become merely means to a desired end. Thanks to Bookish, Lydia, and you for pointing this out. ISTM that such a utilitarian view of victims means that having more victims (or manufacturing fake victims which devalues the real victims) is *better* for The Cause, and that strikes me as ungodly.

    “Never let an opportunity go to waste.”
    — Rahm Emmanuel, Mayor of Chicago and Chicago Dem Machine Hatchetman

  109. @ okrapod:
    okrapod, I know the family. I roomed with one of his daughters when we were both in grad school. I will ask Dee to send my email address to you. (Hoping your eye is better ASAP.)

  110. Retha wrote:

    It is a myth that we are more likely to be killers. Please do not take the word of someone who cannot even spell Asperger’s. You will only start to treat people like me with ungrounded suspicion and hate. That is not just bad for us, but you will also miss out on all the great things we have to give other people.

    Remember after Columbine?
    All the psych screening tricks to identify the Next Columbine Shooters for pre-emptive culling?
    This is just the latest “BEWARE THOU OF THE MUTANT”.

    I show some low-end Aspie symptoms (missed out on the hyperfocus), and one of my writing partners shows most of them. You find a LOT of Aspie symptoms in various fandoms — SF, gaming, comics, Furry, Brony, you name it.

    Daisy wrote:

    @ Retha:
    I’ll add I have similar feelings anytime it is revealed that a public shooter had depression or was on anti-dep. meds.

    Again, BEWARE THOU OF THE MUTANT.
    With a side order of “I THANK THEE, LOORD, THAT I AM NOTHING LIKE THAT ASPIE ON DEPRESSO MEDS OVER THERE…”

    Though I’ve never been on meds, I do have mild bouts of depression. Depression is another thing you find in a lot of fandoms — both my writing partners are on St John’s Wort as field-expedient anti-depressants (poor and no insurance, respectively; neither can afford specialized meds or their side effects).

  111. @ okrapod:
    afaik, he was not killed because of his beliefs. He ran the mission station where they lived, and his wife was a Certified Nurse-Midwife who worked on ob/gyn/delivery with the folks in the area. She also trained lay midwives.

    I think there is some confusion surrounding the circumstances of Archie’s death.

  112. @ okrapod:
    P.S.: I sent an email for Dee to forward to you. I don’t think the family has ever not wanted to say what countries they lived in, but I realize that you might not wish to mention your own travels.

  113. @ Jed Paschall:
    Which is why my first reaction to every mass shooting like this is “Another do-it-yourself Reality Show CELEBRITY”. Jerking the chain all the way from CNN to Twitter to the White House. In the words of the Total Drama Island opening theme:

    “I’m Gonna Be —
    I’m Gonna Be —
    I’m Gonna Be FAMOUS!!!!!”

  114. A couple of folks have mentioned the use of the term ‘discrimination’ vs. ‘persecution’.

    Webster’s defines ‘persecute’ as “to harass in a manner to injure, grieve or afflict; esp: to cause to suffer because of belief.

    ‘Discriminate’ is defined: “distinguish, differentiate, to make a distinction in favor of or against one person or group in favor of another”

    We think of persecution only by comparison to historical examples, I believe. I think that may be a good thing to observe in terms of dialoguing with others because others may think in those terms as well.

    “Discrimination” in the way we use it today is an awful practice, hence, the laws passed to stop it, and all of the discussion that goes on to identify it.

    I suspect that if opposition to Christians increases in the years to come it will be in the denial of opportunity, education, employment in professional capacities – but not by law. Probably just by practice.

    Looking at these definitions, and the way our society uses and identifies terms, I believe that using “discrimination” is effective and is more meaningful to those around us. Though having looked at the definitions, it would seem that discrimination would be a form of persecution.

  115. There was a brief effort to portray the mass shooting at Emanuel African American Methodist Church in Charleston, SC, as anti-Christian persecution. Among others, Gov. Nikki Haley invoked this (whether deliberately or not) by saying, “Parents are having to explain to their kids how they can go to church and feel safe—and that’s not something we ever thought we’d deal with.” I do not recall her saying, after the killer’s racist motive was better understood, that “parents are having to explain to their kids how they can be black and feel safe—and that’s not something we ever thought we’d deal with.”

    In Kansas, a man set out to murder Jews. He went to Jewish-affiliated places and shot dead three people, who turned out to be Christians. A complicated discussion about hate crime charges ensued.

    At Umpqua Community College, each survivor will remember and interpret the horrific experience in his or her own way. I would not question their stories. The rest of us might bear this in mind, though: several who died at Umpqua were not Christians. Regardless of the murderer’s intention, it is unsettling for reporters to say that the people in the room were killed for their Christian faith. A Jew, a pagan, and an agnostic might not want crosses on their graves. The mislabeling of a person’s belief matters greatly.

    We cannot help responding differently to different tragedies and different victims. But if I suddenly stop grieving when I learn that a murder victim had less in common with me than I assumed, I need to think hard about my ability to care.

  116. Ramesh wrote:

    There is another story about this shooter that he was targeting women because he was not getting laid and no women wants to be with him.

    Like that Santa Cruz shooter a couple years ago.
    Left behind a Social Media trail of a long Manifesto and hundreds of Selfies, Selfies, Selfies, Selfies, Selfies.

  117. Witch Hazel wrote:

    I would like to point out, as an individual with Asperger’s Syndrome, that autism does not cause the kind of character flaws and/or mental illness that make a person a murderer.

    Witch Hazel wrote:

    I would also like to point out that being mentally ill (which, as you say, is not what Aspergers is) doesn’t mean that one is without ethics.

    For a couple of mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia or during full mania, ethics can get lost in delusion/fear, but mostly only during episodes. And that generally happens when someone is not being cared for properly.

    Otherwise, mentally ill people have the same ethical stances that others have: some not much at all, and others very much indeed.

    Personality disorders are not the same as mental illnesses. IMO, a good deal more evil gets done by them.

    Incidentally, please pray for my cousin. He lost two good friends in the shooting.

    Sending up a prayer for your cousin.

  118. Did a little search through the Wartburg Watch archives.
    Found this posting and comment thread from two-three years ago after the Sandy Hook mass school shooting:

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/12/17/a-national-tragedy-and-a-call-to-prayer/

    One of my comments from it, about Aspies and Beware Thou of the Mutant:

    I asked my informant for details on that altercation with a schoolteacher years ago. According to him, the schoolteacher’s exact words were that Aspies, loners, and other (unspecified) “behavioral problems” had to be sealed off from the other schoolkids “So they don’t Infect them”.

    I’m probably an undiagnosed borderline Aspie. Of my two main writing partners, one shows definite Aspie symptoms (and has been all but destroyed as a functioning human being by high school and family) and the other does under-the-table counselling on Aspies and “problem types” in the various fandoms we’re involved with. Guess that makes all of us “infectious diseases” that need to be “quarantined”.

    Come to think of it, weren’t these “Christians” an infectious disease to the society of the Roman Empire?

  119. dee wrote:

    This post is to debate the whether or not it is necessary for Christians to declare their faith if they are faced with a delusional madman.

    Seems Jesus has given us the answer –

    “And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?”

    But Jesus kept silent.

    And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”

    Jesus said to him, “It is as you said.”

    And –

    “When Pilate heard of Galilee,he asked if the Man were a Galilean. And as soon as he knew that He belonged to Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent Him to Herod, who was also in Jerusalem at that time. Now when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceedingly glad; for he had desired for a long time to see Him, because he had heard many things about Him, and he hoped to see some miracle done by Him.

    Then he questioned Him with many words, but He answered him nothing.”

    One more –

    “Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

    Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.” And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.

    Then Pilate said to Him, “Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?”

    But He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly.

    Seems you do not have to answer a rascal, but we shouldn’t not deny him.

  120. I am a former math teacher. Though I taught grades 7-12, through training and because of “mainstream” classes, I did work with students who had: semi-functional apsbergers, autism, and mild Down’s syndrome. The students I worked with were never violent, even though they were often confused and hurt because of the way some students (and even staff people) treated them.

    Even in students with behavior disorders (BD), violent behavior seems to be spontaneous and not pre-meditated.

    My daughter has an 18 year old step-son who is schizophrenic and bipolar. He was restricted to the BD room for about half of the time during high school. He displays violent behavior every time he stops taking his meds, but he is not capable of pre-meditated violence.

    I know that my experience is limited and what I have observed may not apply in all cases, but that’s my 2 cents worth. It’s probably not even worth 2 cents!

  121. @ Friend:

    “several who died at Umpqua were not Christians. Regardless of the murderer’s intention, it is unsettling for reporters to say that the people in the room were killed for their Christian faith. A Jew, a pagan, and an agnostic might not want crosses on their graves. The mislabeling of a person’s belief matters greatly.

    We cannot help responding differently to different tragedies and different victims. But if I suddenly stop grieving when I learn that a murder victim had less in common with me than I assumed, I need to think hard about my ability to care.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++

    very good points you make.

    as a general rule, I think on any given day christians can assume they are taking themselves too seriously. and it would be good practice to see oneself as a human being amongst fellows, before seeing one’s own religious overlay.

  122. This is pretty simple for me but take my answer with a grain of salt since I have never had a gun pointed in my face.

    To answer the question… How I choose to characterize my personal faith is none of a shooters da** (ed.) business. I would rather die and go to heaven attempting to stop him then standing there letting him shoot.

    IMHO this is not a Christian persecution despite the attempts of the right-wingers to turn every national event these days into an evidence of how hard they have it. The sad irony is that atrocities happen to Christians around the world every day and we don’t bat an eye. It clearly demonstrates that the religious culture warriors of the US of A are completely out to lunch and need to stop. Dear God please stop.

    Frankly there could have been a much stronger case brought against Dylann Roof that he was a persecutor of Christians. That rhetoric did not seem to appear around the Charleston tragedy despite the fact that he actually shot people attending a Bible study.

    Actually if Christians who should be living for others were to take any action it would be to lay down our “rights” of owning a safe full of AR15s and band together to get some measure of gun control passed. But unfortunately most of the “Christians” I know would be the first to assert their rights over the common good of limiting access to these implements of soft target destruction.

    You may disagree but that’s okay I am probably going to move back to Canada soon. And yes if ever faced with a gunman persecuting Canadians my nationality is none of his damn business either.

  123. Anonymous wrote:

    I also hear many people in society wanting to target churches with property and income taxes when that has never been part of US history. I do not think that this is Christian persecution because it would affect non-profits of all stripes, but the discussions I hear often speak of it in terms of “churches”, not educational institutions or non-profits like the Red Cross, United Way, the American Cancer society etc., which probably reveals a bias against churches.

    I am not so sure this one washes so easily anymore. Synagogues, Mosques and other religions have the same tax exemption as Christians. I have heard some CPA’s joke about starting a church because of all the ways around normal taxation and the personal tax perks for clergy. It might be best for all of us if those exemptions were taken away.

  124. @ Cayuga:
    Same thought. One time Jesus tells them not to take a weapon and another He tells them to sell something to buy one. Curious.

  125. Tim wrote:

    Headless

    Could one infer it might mean it that one might need to defend one’s self or others in that particular situation? I am not understanding your point about weapons as a sign of one’s faith being serious? Has someone here made that declaration?

  126. I have no idea how “headless” came about. I hit reply on your comment above mine. Strange!

  127. My son has Aspergers. He is not violent in any way. Yes, he does have a temper, but who doesn’t. He would be the first to defend someone in trouble, not to cause it. So to say that those who have Aspergers are violent is really wrong. Those who are saying it should do their research. Check out Temple Grandin, she herself has Aspergers and has written many good about it, and I think that several years ago there was movie on tv about her life. Violent, absolutely no way.

  128. Gabriel wrote:

    Actually if Christians who should be living for others were to take any action it would be to lay down our “rights” of owning a safe full of AR15s and band together to get some measure of gun control passed. But unfortunately most of the “Christians” I know would be the first to assert their rights over the common good of limiting access to these implements of soft target destruction.

    I own firearms. I live on a farm in a rural area, a 20 minute drive from the nearest law enforcement and ambulance service. My home has been broken into once ( our dogs usually detract would-be robbers); my mother’s, 3 times.
    Bobcats foxes, and raccoons get into our chicken pens. Coyotes kill our calves. We have outbreaks of rabies and more than our fair share of pit vipers.
    A couple of years ago, 2 paroled criminals obtained pistols illegally, teamed up with my daughter’s ex- boyfriend, and robbed a couple in a neighboring county. The husband died of his gunshot wounds. The wife was shot twice, but she made it to the bedroom, took out her pistol, and shot and injured one of the criminals.
    No matter what we do, I believe criminals will still obtain weapons. I have no problem with background checks. I do believe that would decrease the crime rate to some extent. But, taking away firearms altogether takes away our ability to defend ourselves, our families, our homes, and our livestock.

  129. harley wrote:

    Check out Temple Grandin

    I saw a video about her on Youtube a few years ago, and it is well worth watching for a number of reasons. She is an inspiration, IMO, and I wonder why she is not better known.

  130. Lydia wrote:

    I am not understanding your point about weapons as a sign of one’s faith being serious? Has someone here made that declaration?

    That was what the Tennessee Lt. Governor said as quoted in Salon and mentioned in the OP. I haven’t read the article, so I don’t know the context for the remark or whether he meant that as a defensive measure or not.

  131. I would hope, that if we ever faced a wave of real persecution, that I would not deny Jesus. If someone pointed a gun at me and demanded that I renounce my faith, I hope I’d say, “Jesus is Lord”. But if someone pointed a gun at my husband or son and demanded that I renounce my faith, I’m not sure what I would do. If I said, “I can’t renounce my faith,” it would rip my heart out to do it.

    It bothers me how quickly Christians are to jump on the “Christian persecution” bandwagon. I remember the Cassie Bernall story, which I first heard on NBC news. In her case, I think what happened was more akin to a game of “telephone”, where someone did say they believed in God, and it got attributed to the wrong person. The young lady who said it was Valeen Schurr, and she was not shot. In the confusion of that day, I can see where the facts would have gotten scrambled. (Cassie’s story, even without her saying “I believe in God”, is an inspiring one of a girl who did turn her life around before she died.)

    Several months after Columbine, Family Christian Stores came out with a line of T-shirts, key chains, and other things with the slogan “Yes I Believe In God”. That was the moment I started turning away from “Jesus Junk”. I thought it was a crass attempt to cash in on a tragic moment in history.

    When I heard about “he was shooting people because they were Christians”, my flags went up precisely *because* of the Cassie Bernall story. And I refused to join the #YesIAmAChristian hashtag campaign on Twitter. In fact, I even wrote a blog entry about that hashtag. Anyone can hashtag, but the real test is how you live your life day by day. (And boy, do I fail at that pretty often.)

    On the Asperger’s topic: I have a child with autism. He’s not on the Asperger’s part of the spectrum, which tends to be rather high-functioning. My son is more left-of-center, left being “high-functioning” and right being “low-functioning”. I don’t have experience with Asperger’s, but I can tell you that my son doesn’t have a mean bone in his body. I don’t think there’s a correlation between Asperger’s and calculated, violent behavior. Most “violent” behavior of people with autism comes either from being unable to cope with their environment or from being unable to communicate their wants and needs. It’s not the calculated sort of the Oregon shooter.

  132. Tina wrote:

    Most “violent” behavior of people with autism comes either from being unable to cope with their environment or from being unable to communicate their wants and needs. It’s not the calculated sort of the Oregon shooter.

    It’s acting out from frustration.

  133. Dear Christians in America, you are not being persecuted. Christians in other countries are but you are not. You are free to believe how you want and you even get tax-exempt status for your churches. You also have the luxury of being blissfully unaware of the suffering of others around the world.

  134. Nancy2 wrote:

    But, taking away firearms altogether takes away our ability to defend ourselves, our families, our homes, and our livestock.

    I am not advocating total gun abolishment. If I was in a rural area you bet I would have a rifle or two and maybe even a sidearm. However what I hope to question is the arrogance and rights demanding attitude that says I should be able to own a military grade assault rifle and a high capacity magazine just because I can while you may be a responsible citizen with that armament others may not.

    I believe scripture speaks much about moderation and I would contend that it would advocate for moderation in this area as well if Peter or Paul were aware of our current situation.

    And bravo to you for protecting your property and family.

  135. Bill M wrote:

    Decades ago there was a debate on campus whether to ban preachers out on the university commons.

    Years ago, I was on a University campus doing training while some student group had a protest against the Gideon’s on campus handing out free bibles. Ironically, Angela Davis was speaking there that night.

    Oh the things people think and do in the name of “tolerance”. :o)

  136. There’s one thing that I think hasn’t been addressed, that’s the fact that these young people are on the internet and playing all the games such as league of legends and so on. Those games are all about killing. Also, access to porn and such has desensitized the gruesome reality of hideous actions. Gun control might help, but the reality of the internet is unavoidable. I have thought this would happen for a long time.

  137. .@ Gram3:
    Oh, I did not glean that exactly as stated from the OP. I think it is ok for people to defend themselves and others.

  138. Lydia wrote:

    I think the real message is for us to strive to change what we can here and now. Be the kingdom. Cure cancer, protect innocents, etc, etc. Humans have done so much over the centuries toward valuing humans by improving life while others have done much to devalue. Why do we accept the latter as “normal”? There is much work to do and pass on to our children. Yes, time is short.

    Even amongst fundagelicals who are not Reformed and have an Arminian bent, say Calvary Chapelites for instance, the message and the purpose of the Gospel is to save sinners from the fires of hell. In their world view any human goodness is not good enough. It is not possible to build a better world using good old-fashioned human elbow grease, universal right & wrong, and one’s own moral compass.

  139. It is so difficult for me to project myself in this situation. Reading about the Oregon shooter and the deaths of those poor people almost seems like a movie to me – because my life is so far removed from such happenings. I know in my brain that these kind of things happen – that mass murders occur all over the world. Right now as I am typing this, there is more than likely someone who is at risk of losing their life at the hands of a demented killer. But I don’t know how to translate this horror into my everyday life. I think if I lived in a dangerous neighborhood where shootings are part and parcel of daily life, even then I could relate more to this tragedy.

    Also, I think if I lived in Syria or Iraq, or some other country where Christians are actually being persecuted with regularity, I might be more able to give an answer as to what I would do in the event of ACTUAL persecution, because the reality of such a thing happening in my life would hit home. Of course, the situation I just mentioned (in Syria and Iraq) is, without question, one of Christian persecution. In the case of this Oregon shooter, you really got me thinking, Dee. I think in that situation, one of the most noble things to attempt is to bring down the shooter to prevent him from killing anyone. But how realistic was this in that classroom? I doubt it was an option. So, I could attempt to bring him down on my own and be killed. What good would that do?

    Those who admitted to being Christians and lost their lives, I will not judge. They did what they thought was pleasing to God, and who am to weigh in on such a sacrifice from the comfort of my home? Those Christians who did not confess to being Christian when faced with losing their lives, I will not judge either. I very well may have done the same as they. Let God be the judge of both. However, if I were ever in a situation that was undoubtedly Christian persecution, such as the dear men beheaded by ISIS by the shores of the Mediterranean Sea, and given one of two choices: “Deny Christ or die”, I hope and pray that I would be as brave as those men.

  140. @ Eagle:
    I’m catching up late this week, so forgive me if this has already been said, but, Eagle, you are jumping to conclusions here. No-one said anything about pajamas so we can’t assume he was a blogger.

  141. Now to get to the topic of the post.
    I deny Christ daily when I neglect the poor, speak unkindly to my children, hoard “my” belongings when I could share, etc. etc. etc. Why would I think that to stand up and say “yes” under this circumstance is in any way meaningful?
    Next, the issue of mental health care: Sorry, but that IS a political issue. The same party who does not want to increase restrictions on gun ownership also does not want universal health care. I’ve been pretty conservative-leaning most of my life but I can’t wrap my head around the stubborn refusal to see and care about the human collateral. (And I agree with the many people who have pointed out that people with Asperger syndrome, depression and other mental health problems do not typically pose this kind of risk.)

  142. @ Nancy2:
    How would you defend your own life in that manner? Frankly, martial arts training would be more effective in dealing with an armed intruder, but the sad fact is that most everyone who has to deal with that is caught by surprise and unable to do much of anything.

    Short of actual coups or or civil war, i cannot see how it helps anyone in a practical sense. It might make people *feel* more secure, but…

  143. @ Gabriel:
    Gabriel, i think the answer regarding why nobody (no white people, that is) referred to the dead in Charleston as martyrs is, sadly, all too obvious.

    I don’t like the term “martyr” -it has so many negative connotations. But were the people at that church martyred? I would say yes.

  144. Gram3 wrote:

    There is mostly silence about Christian persecution overseas because no one dares to talk about what it would take to stop or at least mitigate it. So we talk about easy “persecution” on the one hand or deny that certain ideologies really do want to kill the infidels. I think it dishonors those Christians to pretend that we are being persecuted here. I also think it is foolish to think that we might never be subject to it in some form.

    Thank you for mentioning this. I was beginning to wonder if anyone on this blog has a clue about what is happening to Christians in the middle east.

    Seems to me that murder is in the hearts of many more than not through the centuries… just think of Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, your neighbor who murdered his wife etc etc and their followers. Call it mental, madness, delusion, sin nature or whatever but they kill. Seems like the devilishness of it all likes to kill the good.

    I would think that if you are able to defend yourself or get away you should do so. Do you really think that if you deny Christ you are going to live with that kind of person doing their thing?

  145. numo wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    How would you defend your own life in that manner? Frankly, martial arts training would be more effective in dealing with an armed intruder, but the sad fact is that most everyone who has to deal with that is caught by surprise and unable to do much of anything.

    I have chronic fatigue syndrome, I tested positive for lupus, and I have had a mild stroke ~~ all of that began in 2009. I have been doing better the past year or so, but martial arts training is still not practical for me. Some days I can behave almost like a “normal” person. Some days I struggle to do what I absolutely have to do. Maybe someday …….. We have a long drive way (100 yds. +)and 3 dogs. It is difficult for anyone to get to our house without the dogs barking.
    Again, I live in a rural area ~~ 20 minutes from the nearest sheriffs office.
    What if there is more than one intruder?
    How do I use martial arts on a fox, snake, opossum, or raccoon that has gotten into the chicken pen, or a coyote that is stalking a calf, or a rabid skunk?

  146. @ Lydia:

    I don’t disagree with what you wrote here Lydia, except for possibly how we might work out the presence of the Kingdom here and now in practical terms.All I am saying is in this sort of situation I would be hard pressed in my own conscience to not identify myself as a Christian.

    Of course when it comes to my fight/flight instincts I lack any impulse for flight, so it’d probably play out with me trying to disarm the shooter and/or eat as many rounds as I could before life escaped me. But there’s no theological system, even the soft determinism of Calvinism that makes this kind of evil any less perplexing. At the end of the day we all cast ourselves on the love and mercy of God and trust he will bring sense to a world so bent by senselessness.

  147. Gram3 wrote:

    I have another question. Assuming a Christian is carrying a firearm, does that Christian have a moral duty to intervene in a situation like Oregon? Would the use of that firearm against the killer be different in principle from charging him?

    I personally think that, in that case, it is right to shoot.
    Indeed, any number of tragedies akin to the ones we are discussing, I think that it would be an active evil to refuse to do so. I am thinking of the quotation that goes something like: “The only thing necessary for evil to thrive, is for good men to do nothing”.

  148. @ Nancy2:

    I don’t think you should be made to feel guilty or owe anyone an explanation for owning guns and being able to protect yourself, your livestock or your family if need be. (Piper might have a problem with that, too :o). I am so sorry about your health troubles. My PA suffered horribly with Lupus for many years with several other complicating factors thrown in. Praying you will have more good days.

  149. Thank you! I would have said “no” in this situation, and for the reason you gave — this was not an incident of true persecution, this was a disturbed, deranged person parroting something he heard somewhere once. The wiser and better course would be to survive.

  150. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Spiritual Warfare/Deliverance to the point of Superstition

    HUG, I fully understand the extreme ministries that are out there regarding belief and practice when it comes to spiritual warfare. I think the key to the C.S. Lewis quote is to not “deny their existence.” Spiritual discernment is needed in this area, not the message and methods of false prophets who abuse the truth regarding satanic influence in our age. Believers fall victim to these ministries when they follow blindly without praying for discernment. There may not be a devil behind ‘every’ bush, but they are out there.

  151. @ Nancy2:

    Another factor in the mix — this headline on yesterday’s MSNBC newsfeed, amid the wagging-finger lectures about how We Need Gun Control. Put the two together:

    FEDERAL PRISONS TO RELEASE THOUSANDS EARLY BECAUSE OF OVERCROWDING

  152. @ Nancy2:
    I have some of the same conditions, and feel for you. My questions were not intended personslly; more as hypotheticsl, butmi didn’t make that as clear as i vould have.

    I honestly did not intend to put you on the spot. My apologies.

  153. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    FEDERAL PRISONS TO RELEASE THOUSANDS EARLY BECAUSE OF OVERCROWDING

    Uhg. I wonder how many of those are repeat offenders???
    I also wonder what percentage would respectfully abide by gun control laws?

  154. Daisy wrote:

    Anonymous wrote:

    I do believe that there are many in society in the US who harbor dislike and hatred for Christianity and Christians.
    This can and does manifest itself in the form of persecution, though it often does not look like what we may think.

    A lot of people don’t like it when American Christians use the word “persecution,” but I find the words “discrimination,” “harassment” and “bullying” are entirely accurate, fair, and applicable in the cultural climate of the last couple of decades.

    I agree. The common tendency toward whining over every perceived slight is totally out of hand. A lot of people need to put on their big girls panties & cut it out.

  155. Religious persecution – systematic mistreatment of an individual or group due to their religious affiliation
    By definition, the Oregon shooting incident was not religious persecution. I think this was just a deranged individual on a murder/suicide mission. If I were caught in a situation like that, I would probably lie through my teeth. And, I hope I would have the courage to do what I could to stop the shooter.
    Under true religious persecution, I hope I would have the courage to stand up for my beliefs and my God. I also hope that I am never in a situation in which I am forced to decide.

  156. Nancy2 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    FEDERAL PRISONS TO RELEASE THOUSANDS EARLY BECAUSE OF OVERCROWDING

    Uhg. I wonder how many of those are repeat offenders???
    I also wonder what percentage would respectfully abide by gun control laws?

    I understand priority in such releases goes to non-violent drug offender types, but you don’t get that from the headline.

    See why so many want guns?

  157. Max wrote:

    Spiritual discernment is needed in this area, not the message and methods of false prophets who abuse the truth regarding satanic influence in our age. Believers fall victim to these ministries when they follow blindly without praying for discernment. There may not be a devil behind ‘every’ bush, but they are out there.

    Max, my position on this is the same as for any paranormal event. This does not endear me to professional Skeptics, but I believe the paranormal exists. I’ve had a couple “Weird Sh*t” experiences including one best explained as “demonic encounter”. (There used to be a paranormal/skeptic site called “Parascope” whose sysop had a similar attitude; he was a Skeptic, but had experienced WS incidents himself, just had no hard evidence.)

    That said, to me, paranormal events are akin to rare natural phenomenon; I’ve seen a sundog or meteor about as often in my life as I’ve experienced a WS event. Paranormal phenomena are rare, often ambiguous, and leave little or no physical evidence of their passing. They have a low signal-to-noise ratio to start with, and its not helped by Materialist or Magician noisemakers.

  158. numo wrote:

    Frankly, martial arts training would be more effective in dealing with an armed intruder, but the sad fact is that most everyone who has to deal with that is caught by surprise and unable to do much of anything.

    I agree with the caught by surprise, and I disagree with the martial arts training being preferable. I have been confronted by an armed man with bad twice in my life, and martial arts training would have been of little use, IMO. Both time they were much bigger than I. In the first instance, I and a co-worker were robbed at gunpoint. Thankfully, the robber was not interested in killing us, so he left after we gave him the money. We did not know he was not interested in killing us, so we gave him the money and hoped for the best. I think if he had known that people were armed at that place of business, he would have gone elsewhere. There was no opportunity to call the police, and that was before 911.

    The second time was at another business where I was alone at the time. The guy was mad because I would not do something he wanted me to do so he pulled his gun. It scared me but I could not do what he asked me to do. Again, there was no opportunity to call the police. For some reason unknown to me, I believed he did not intend to shoot me so I told him that shooting me would not solve his problem and would create a bigger problem for him. He left. Personally, I think that the Holy Spirit told me his real intention and told me what to say, though some would scoff. I trust the Holy Spirit would give me the knowledge and grace to do what is necessary in whatever circumstances.

    Guns do not have agency or a will. They are merely tools which can be used for good (defensive) as well as evil by people who *do* have agency. As long as guns are manufactured, there will always be guns available. There are gun-free cities where there is murderous mayhem every night that we never hear about. The problem in the case of Oregon is that a mentally disturbed person decided to go to a soft target and kill a lot of people before he killed himself. Somewhat like the Germanwings pilot. Sometimes people just want to kill other people when they kill themselves and they do that with the means available.

    For any medical or mental health professionals, what do we, as a society, need to do about the mentally ill to protect them and ourselves? What are the realistic options?

  159. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    FEDERAL PRISONS TO RELEASE THOUSANDS EARLY BECAUSE OF OVERCROWDING

    And while there, they learned (if they didn’t already know) how to get their hands on guns without purchasing them legally. The likelihood of a repeat-offense is very high. I would have preferred that they remained overcrowded in prison – it shouldn’t be a comfortable place to live.

  160. numo wrote:

    But were the people at that church martyred? I would say yes.

    Would you say the same if the church was a temple or a mosque?

  161. Nancy2 wrote:

    No matter what we do, I believe criminals will still obtain weapons. I have no problem with background checks. I do believe that would decrease the crime rate to some extent. But, taking away firearms altogether takes away our ability to defend ourselves, our families, our homes, and our livestock.

    Agreed. I too am a gun owner. I have a Glock 17 & a Remington model 870 12-gauge scatter-gun. Glad you mentioned background checks! How is it that people with known histories of mental health issues can still amass arsenals of military grade weapons? In keeping with Dee’s request up front to not make this about gun control, I’ll now shut-up and leave it at that.

  162. Max wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    FEDERAL PRISONS TO RELEASE THOUSANDS EARLY BECAUSE OF OVERCROWDING

    And while there, they learned (if they didn’t already know) how to get their hands on guns without purchasing them legally. The likelihood of a repeat-offense is very high. I would have preferred that they remained overcrowded in prison – it shouldn’t be a comfortable place to live.

    Remember, they have Rights. And Activist organizations with lawyers to fight for those Rights.
    We don’t.

    I keep hearing more and more often “This country needs a Fuehrer”.
    Put a Fuehrer in absolute power and he’ll fix everything by decree.
    And The Trump is riding this wave.

  163. Gram3 wrote:

    For some reason unknown to me, I believed he did not intend to shoot me so I told him that shooting me would not solve his problem and would create a bigger problem for him.

    i.e. You discerned that he was making a threat display to intimidate, not a serious attack.

    But going to a weapon for threat display is VERY risky; brandishing a firearm is a firearms felony even in gun-rights states, and if the target of the intimidation takes it as a serious attack and replies in kind…
    “You wanna get nuts? LET’S GET NUTS!”

  164. numo wrote:

    There is a conversation that’s been over 100 years in the making, and it’s still not happening.

    I am reading Ed Baptist’s “The Half Has Never Been Told,” about slavery and economics in the antebellum US. It’s abundantly clear we have never had a discussion about race in this country. We have never confessed our national sin of holding people as chattel property for centuries and then, upon freedom, implementing Jim Crow. We have especially not discussed the collaboration of the churches in the enslavement of (at the time of the Civil War) four million people. One apology by the SBC in 1995 is simply not enough.

    There’s souch on Baptist’s book that makes me angry. Let’s start out with the conservative cant about the unstable black family. Well, if for three centuries your owner could and did tear your family units apart for the sake of profit, and then, in the next century make it difficult for you to live as a free person, of course that’s not going to be fixed in the 50 years since the Civil Rights Acts! But we don’t talk about that.

    People like Al Mohler talk about how marriage is under threat because of “those people,” while at the same time forgetting how their forefathers in the faith thought so lottle of legal marriage that they wouldn’t let their slaves engage in it. Why, that might give the animate property some rights against their enslavers! I’ve seen no apologies for that, either.

    To quote William Faulkner, who might have been talking about this, one of America’s original sins, “The past is never dead. It’s not even past.”

  165. Anonymous wrote:

    I have been waiting for the day that a judicial or agency nominee is openly opposed for his/her Christian faith. I know that has happened behind the scene, and it’s not put in terms of being against “Christianity” but only this person for supposed bias or something like that.

    It’s happened already. William Brennan, a Catholic confirmed to the Supreme Court in 1956. He had to reassure the senators he would not be taking his marching orders from Rome.

    Or there was senator Reed Smoot, who was refused his seat in the US senate until the senators were convinced he wouldn’t be taking his marching orders feom Salt Lake City.

    I could state the obvious here but I will restrain myself.

  166. Nancy2 wrote:

    Uhg. I wonder how many of those are repeat offenders???
    I also wonder what percentage would respectfully abide by gun control laws?

    I wonder how many were sent to prison because of our punitive drug laws?

  167. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    ut a Fuehrer in absolute power and he’ll fix everything by decree.
    And The Trump is riding this wave.

    We have increasingly given the executive branch too much power. Been happening in real terms since the 30s. The worst was taxes taken directly from wages and paid to IRS by company instead of wage earner. I read that was Macy’s idea.

  168. @ mirele:
    There was also John F. Kennedy. I think it is legitimate to ask a person seeking a position of power how they triage authority and loyalty. Is their ultimate source of authority (for the purposes of carrying out their official duties) the Constitution and the laws of our nation? Or is their ultimate source of authority somewhere else? Kennedy’s candidacy took place before Vatican II, and the question of ultimate authority was a live one, though I doubt seriously that Kennedy would have been led by the Vatican.

    That question of authority/loyalty came into play with the Japanese-American internment as well, so it can be an ethnic question as well. We look back in horror at that, but it probably seemed rational at the time. Emphasis on seemed, because decisions made during a panic are not necessarily rational.

  169. mirele wrote:

    There’s souch on Baptist’s book that makes me angry. Let’s start out with the conservative cant about the unstable black family. Well, if for three centuries your owner could and did tear your family units apart for the sake of profit, and then, in the next century make it difficult for you to live as a free person, of course that’s not going to be fixed in the 50 years since the Civil Rights Acts! But we don’t talk about that.

    Definitely there are lots of things we don’t talk about that we must be able to talk about. Some conservatives agree that slavery was an abomination, Jim Crow was an abomination, *and* that family instability is a huge problem wherever it occurs, including urban America, suburbia, and rural America. I don’t believe in race, but I do believe in racism. There is a “conservative” kind of racism which holds that every personal deficiency is due to “race” and there is a “liberal” kind of racism that says that every personal deficiency is due to race. Those kinds of racism look very different in practice, but the underlying assumption of both (though usually unstated) is one of racial determinism.

    My family is multi-“racial” in a way that would have scandalized people in the past. What’s more, one side came from the segregated South and the other from the west where poor people of all races lived together. That’s probably the reason I believe that people’s choices and attitudes are *not* determined by “race” or any other category, *and* I believe that some people and cultures subjugate other people in various ways which lead to real consequences like the ones you pointed out so well.

    It is definitely a conversation we need to have, and a frank one on all sides where people take responsibility for their own moral choices, whatever those moral choices are or were. I do not think that the apology by the SBC was adequate *at all* and, what is worse, the SBC has not learned the lesson from the sins of our fathers.

  170. Honestly, knowing human nature, once we open the door to, “Is this REAL persecution, or just a mentally deranged person”, we do two things:

    1. We ignore the fact that blind hatred of Christ and His followers nearly almost manifests itself in unbalanced behavior, and…

    2. We are unabashedly putting this life as priority.

    What you think about whether those two things are justifiable is beside my point. We first have to acknowledge that we’re engaging in those two actions, and start there.

    The question I’ve asked several people in this debate is this: Of you truly believe the Bible to be true, and that whether living for Him on earth or living with Him in Heaven is the most important thing in your life, what is it in us that would even look for an exception? Is that thing coming from the Holy Spirit Who resides inside us, or from our own human heart? What is the ultimate source of those thoughts, is it complete faith in God?

    Something we should all think about now instead of when the chips are down.

  171. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    @ mirele:
    Sorry … In my neck of the woods, it is rare for a person to go to a federal or state pen. without having committed a more serious offense than drug possession/dealing. I assumed too much.

  172. lydia wrote:

    We have increasingly given the executive branch too much power. Been happening in real terms since the 30s.

    Especially when you have President-vs-Congress total gridlock like today (with all votes along strict Party Lines). The only way for a President to get anything through is by Executive Order, i.e. By Decree. This is not a good precedent to establish.

  173. @ Gram3:
    I agree with you about the kinds of situations you describe. I spent many years working in bookstores, and the rule of thumb is “Don’t try to be a hero – give them the money and call the cops when they leave.”

    However, basic self-defense-type training is a good thing to know, too, and might enable some to get free of a potential mugger or rapist. The thing is, having a gun is a liabilty in these situations, because assailants can and usually do wrest any weapon away from the person they’re attacking. And then turn it on them.

    I am no fan of our current laws regarding a number of issues surrounding weapons, especially the sale of assault weapons. But that’s another comment entirely, and a subject that Dee said she wished to avoid… and I’ve gone against her request several times in my replies here.

    Sorry, Dee and all.

  174. @ mirele:
    Jewish folks, Muslims… all have been targeted re. their religion on both candidacy and upon taking office.

    For a supposedly “tolerant” country, we aren’t, at least, not nearly as much as we think we are.

  175. @ Gabriel:
    Further, i can think of recent instances, like the killings at the Sikh temple in Wisconsin just last year. Though i am also thinking that “martyred” isn’t solely about one’s religious affiliation.

  176. lydia wrote:

    We have increasingly given the executive branch too much power.

    Amen. The executive branch in recent years has effectively deceived the legislative and judiciary branches in just how much power they can wield. The separation of powers needed to be reminded where their boundaries are. Come to think of it, church leaders need to be reminded of this too! (Lydia, do you remember priesthood of the believers doctrine in SBC life?)

  177. Max wrote:

    Lydia, do you remember priesthood of the believers doctrine in SBC life?)

    Oh yes.
    It was drilled into our heads in Training Union along with soul comptency/freedom of conscience. We would be responsible and accountable to Christ alone.

  178. @ Gram3:
    I would have the same question of 9 Marks church candidate. We are a nation of laws we follow. Not human authorities.

  179. Gram3 wrote:

    I do not think that the apology by the SBC was adequate *at all* and, what is worse, the SBC has not learned the lesson from the sins of our fathers.

    There is so much hypocrisy in the SBC on this. Russ Moore of patriarchy fame took on the media crazed issue of the Confederate flag as president of the ERLC. Easy low hanging fruit to score points and be quoted However, how does he compare that to his tenure as Dean at SBTS with Confederate Chaplain pro chattle slavery Boyce hailed everywhere on campus as their example of truth?

    Does he not see the obvious?

  180. lydia wrote:

    Does he not see the obvious?

    Of course he does. Just because somebody says something does not mean that they believe it. Things cannot be relied upon to be what they seem to be.

  181. I have been disappointed by the politicization of the Oregon shooting.

    For years, I have lamented the fact that every mass shooting has become an excuse to bash firearms and firearm owners, instead of an opportunity to address the obvious mental health issues underlying the violence itself.

    It grieves me to see politicians repeatedly attack firearm ownership and owners, and yet make no mention of the incredibly sorry state of the United States mental healthcare system, nor make any attempts to fix said system.

    I have a family member who is a mental healthcare provider, and they have told me that they often have to send potentially dangerous patients home because: (a) the relevant laws do not give them enough say over the patient, and/or (b) insurance companies have way too much say over mental healthcare providers’ ability to provide care.

    Surprisingly, I have seen a number of my left-leaning friends (yes – I have many!) critique this very approach, that is, they have condemned using school shootings as an opportunity to discuss mental health. How strange!

    I do not like to discuss politics, and certainly not on the internet. But it has been difficult to hold my tongue as I see so many friends posting trite, naive, and often inaccurate anti-gun posts on social media. Some of it is just downright offensive, implying that anyone who owns a gun is more likely to kill someone that a person who doesn’t own a gun. Really? As someone who has been hunting and shooting competitively since childhood, I am insulted by the insinuation that as a firearm owner and user, I am somehow more homicidal than a non-firearm owner.

  182. lydia wrote:

    Russ Moore of patriarchy fame took on the media crazed issue of the Confederate flag as president of the ERLC.

    I am not a fan of the Confederate battle flag, and I also think that proudly flying it while knowing what that means to a significant portion of the population is unwise or possibly evil, depending on the motivation for doing so. It strikes me as the prideful display of a defeated people and is backward-looking rather than forward-looking. There were many brave young men who fought under it for causes they *believed* to be just, but I do not think that taking it down dishonors their memory, and I believe that most of those young men, if they lived today, would understand the evil of slavery.

    The battle flag represents a false identity just like the dysfunctional false identity of some of the descendants of slaves is backward-looking rather than forward-looking. I once asked an older black female friend of mine why so many black youth had embraced a dysfunctional and self-destructive sub-culture and how she and her husband overcame Jim Crow racism. She told me that she refused to believe the lies people told about her “race” while the young people had unknowingly internalized those lies and were acting out those lies. Obviously, she and I were both raised in an era where we could speak openly about such things and where there was mutual trust.

    WRT Russell Moore, he started out in Mississippi politics. He advanced using SBC politics. He is now in D.C. functioning as a political lobbyist, despite the ERLC name. What do we expect? IMO his embrace of this cause-du-jour has come a little late in the game to be meaningful, considering the issue of the Confederate battle flag display is decades old at this point. It sounds very me-tooish and particularly hypocritical in light of his strong stance on the subjugation of women. Ditto for Thabiti Anyabwile, though I do agree with him about race being unreal while culture is real.

  183. Gram3 wrote:

    She told me that she refused to believe the lies people told about her “race” while the young people had unknowingly internalized those lies and were acting out those lies.

    Praise God as they pass truth onto their children!

  184. Gram3 wrote:

    He is now in D.C. functioning as a political lobbyist, despite the ERLC name.

    This is my position concerning Moore. He has so many SBC pastors fooled on both sides of the debate. This is about Moore building Moore’s brand and clout with OPM.

  185. @ Mr.H:

    Mr H, I totally agree with you. But a bigger problem is what constitutes a serious mental health problem? Just on some projects I have seen with students from age 15-21 (aging out of the system- kept there because of mental issues) you would need to provide some sort of serious vigilance for thousands and thousands. It is overwhelming. There is no process for forcing people to take their meds unless they are institutionalized. I have never seen anything like it in my life. The problem is overwhelming. There is also the issue of payouts. Those in the system call them “crazy checks”– so many want some sort of diagnosis. Most schools here have on site psychologists who deal with this stuff every day. And they must report. But everyone is showing signs of anger or frustration. Some won’t talk. Others won’t take their meds. So what is to be done?

    I fear we have failed to just call some behaviors “evil” and admit they did have a choice of whether or not to kill others. Maybe coping with rage is becoming a bigger problem than we want to admit?

    I know nothing about this particular situation, btw, and am not diagnosing. And that is another thing, so much of this stuff just simply cannot be diagnosed and protected from– without taking away some rights and you hear it over that, too.

  186. @ Gram3:

    BTW, I would never have dreamed you were a fan of the Confederate Flag. What I meant was that issue was used by some like Mooore to propel them in the media eye to position themselves easily. But their past did not match their current position.

    Just to give more background on Moore and SBTS think of Boyce college. It is not that old. It was started in 1998! They chose to name it after the pro chattel slavery Confederate Chaplain who was one of the Founders of SBTS. Where was the outcry? Boyces’ position on slavery is shocking as he insisted God determined slavery so as captives they could be discipled.

    Well Boyce was a “Founder” and a Calvinist. So none of the wrong thinking matters today? We pretend he was a great man?

  187. Mr.H wrote:

    For years, I have lamented the fact that every mass shooting has become an excuse to bash firearms and firearm owners, instead of an opportunity to address the obvious mental health issues underlying the violence itself.

    From a CNN post:
    The father of the Roseburg, Oregon, shooter said he doesn’t know where his son got his weapons, and he declined to comment much on his son’s mental state, but he was quick to say what he thought was to blame in the deadly college attack: Guns.

  188. Lydia wrote:

    Boyces’ position on slavery is shocking as he insisted God determined slavery so as captives they could be discipled.

    And that was the view of many. There had to be a “good” reason for slavery, right? It goes back to racial determinism (along with gender determinism, according to Dabney.) I wish I could remember the name of the book from about 1830 that maintained craziness like the three sons of Noah were specially created in a sense to be the three progenitors of the races. Shem was the red one, Japheth the white one, and Ham was the black one. Seriously. I was reading it online and then lost the bookmark. It was fascinating and frightening to realize the false things that people believe because a guru–secular or religious–tells them it is so.

  189. Gram3 wrote:

    craziness like the three sons of Noah were specially created in a sense to be the three progenitors of the races. Shem was the red one, Japheth the white one, and Ham was the black one

    Where did this guy think that races deemed yellow and brown came from???

  190. Lydia wrote:

    Boyces’ position on slavery is shocking as he insisted God determined slavery so as captives they could be discipled.

    Like the Egyptians discipled the Israelites?

  191. Lydia wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    BTW, I would never have dreamed you were a fan of the Confederate Flag. What I meant was that issue was used by some like Mooore to propel them in the media eye to position themselves easily. But their past did not match their current position.

    If I have to use a Confederate Flag, it’ll be the 1861-pattern Stars & Bars, the one least likely to be involved in any sort of Confederate Flag knock-down-drag-out.

    Bit of Synchroncity (cue music video by Sting)… “The Starry Cross”, the flag everyone thinks of as “THE Confederate Flag”, is based around a saltire, i.e. a (diagonal) Cross of St Andrew. Just like the flag of Scotland, which is worshipped by the Jerk and his Kirk. I wonder about the synchronicity in that, given the Jerk in the Kirk also defends the Confederate States and their Peculiar Institution regarding Animate Property.

  192. according to john piper and other like him….. it IS a form of persecution…. not from a govt””’ but from spiritual delusions…. the enemy is indirectly ‘the state’ though in effect he is criminal…. why? well he was prescribed the drugs that say ‘ do not opperate heavy machinery’…. he did not heed the warnings but drove off into the sidewalk and became a literal criminal. we do not hear of these crimes among the natural health dudes….. even though some do not aknowledge christ….. they still aknowledge problems with the pharmacy industry….a persecutor of all people….no matter the race or religion….

  193. was ‘judas iscariot’ a persecutor??? yes…. I am sure he was…. that why it is a form of ‘spiritual persecution’…. not a form of govt’ or gamng style persecution….

    the style and type of persecution does not matter. stopping a person beating heartbeat who is innocent is legitimate form of persecution insome way or another….

  194. @ Gram3:

    “I wish I could remember the name of the book from about 1830 that maintained craziness like the three sons of Noah were specially created in a sense to be the three progenitors of the races. ….. It was fascinating and frightening to realize the false things that people believe because a guru–secular or religious–tells them it is so.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    This will be Jon Piper, Wayne Grudem, CBMW & co, and the like in years to come. Have to say, they deserve this kind of legacy.

  195. The association of Ham with Negroes is very old, and the three-race theory already widespread by the 19th century, but could you be thinking of Philip Schaff, “Slavery and the Bible” (1861)? Or Gobineau, “Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races”?

  196. Zla’od wrote:

    t could you be thinking of Philip Schaff, “Slavery and the Bible” (1861)

    That might be it, though I was thinking the book was from from 1830 or so. Sadly, I’ve heard the Canaan curse in my lifetime. I have also heard the three races theory, but Shem was not the “red” progenitor but rather the progenitor of the Middle Eastern semitic tribes.

  197. Josiah Priest, Bible Defence of Slavery, 1851. Thanks for jogging my memory a bit. Now, I need to read Schaff.

  198. @ Mr.H:
    From a British perspective there seem to be 2 problems – each with their own features & implications.
    The first is the mental health issues you describe amongst young people, especially prevalent in those who go on to commit spree killing.
    The second is the gun problem. Whilst there are undoubtedly those for whom gun ownership is not a problem, there seem to be many for whom guns are a psychological, almost pathological, issue that cannot be discussed with reason, tied somehow to basic identity, freedom & safety. It cannot be denied that compared to the UK the sheer amount of firearms in comparison to population & the ease with which they can be obtained is jaw-dropping…I barely see armed Police here, & the only person I know who owns guns is a gamekeeper.
    I really don’t see it as either/or weapons or mental health, but both/and. And when you add the 2 together the synergistic effect is catastrophic.
    Would you give up your guns for hobby hunting (apologies if you are a subsistence hunter) if it made your country a safer place? If not, why not?

  199. call a ginger wrote:

    according to john piper and other like him….. it IS a form of persecution…. not from a govt””’ but from spiritual delusions…. the enemy is indirectly ‘the state’ though in effect he is criminal…. why? well he was prescribed the drugs that say ‘ do not opperate heavy machinery’…. he did not heed the warnings but drove off into the sidewalk and became a literal criminal. we do not hear of these crimes among the natural health dudes….. even though some do not aknowledge christ….. they still aknowledge problems with the pharmacy industry….a persecutor of all people….no matter the race or religion….

    Yep, John Piper sounds delusional at times. You hit that nail on the head.

    (I know that wasn’t your point, but that was my take-away from reading over your comment with my foggy brain. The coffee is slow to kick in this morning.)

  200. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ Gram3:
    BTW, I would never have dreamed you were a fan of the Confederate Flag. What I meant was that issue was used by some like Mooore to propel them in the media eye to position themselves easily. But their past did not match their current position.
    If I have to use a Confederate Flag, it’ll be the 1861-pattern Stars & Bars, the one least likely to be involved in any sort of Confederate Flag knock-down-drag-out.
    Bit of Synchroncity (cue music video by Sting)… “The Starry Cross”, the flag everyone thinks of as “THE Confederate Flag”, is based around a saltire, i.e. a (diagonal) Cross of St Andrew. Just like the flag of Scotland, which is worshipped by the Jerk and his Kirk. I wonder about the synchronicity in that, given the Jerk in the Kirk also defends the Confederate States and their Peculiar Institution regarding Animate Property.

    Gah, I want to throw something across the room when I am reminded of how I (we) fell for his claptrap, hook, line, and sinker, and took so many years to break free. And the hook left gaping wounds…

    But then there’d be a mess to clean up, and everything around me is either breakable or too heavy to lift, so I guess I’ll just practice deep breathing for a moment or two.

  201. Nancy2 wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Boyces’ position on slavery is shocking as he insisted God determined slavery so as captives they could be discipled.
    Like the Egyptians discipled the Israelites?

    Yes, horribly this is what Wilkins and Wilson deceived us with. We thought we were learning suppressed, underground history at the time. Conspiracy theories raged about us. Y2K was only a few years away…

    Wasted years. We were listening to showmen and charlatans, hirelings, in another word.

  202. Gram3 wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Boyces’ position on slavery is shocking as he insisted God determined slavery so as captives they could be discipled.
    And that was the view of many. There had to be a “good” reason for slavery, right? It goes back to racial determinism (along with gender determinism, according to Dabney.) I wish I could remember the name of the book from about 1830 that maintained craziness like the three sons of Noah were specially created in a sense to be the three progenitors of the races. Shem was the red one, Japheth the white one, and Ham was the black one. Seriously. I was reading it online and then lost the bookmark. It was fascinating and frightening to realize the false things that people believe because a guru–secular or religious–tells them it is so.

    One of the few good things I can say about Ken Ham was his talk on how the races are all one race. He debunked this particular teaching in the seminars we saw.

  203. Mr.H wrote:

    I have a family member who is a mental healthcare provider, and they have told me that they often have to send potentially dangerous patients home because: (a) the relevant laws do not give them enough say over the patient, and/or (b) insurance companies have way too much say over mental healthcare providers’ ability to provide care.

    Let’s not forget medication. I know of at least one highly effective medication for bipolar disorder that costs around $1000 a month, and there is no generic form.

  204. refugee wrote:

    the races are all one race

    Race is an arbitrary classification by physical characteristics. But the boundaries are so fuzzy that no one can draw bright lines. A new study is out about geneticists who have studied the genetic material of a man who was buried in a cave about 3500 years ago in Africa (apologies to any scientists reading this for my clumsy account.) His genetic makeup was similar to Eurasians and also similar to later African populations. Due to migration, populations have mixed throughout history. The fact is that we are one race with many cultures each of which may or may not promote flourishing, but one must not say that any more because it is very unPC.

  205. Beakerj wrote:

    Would you give up your guns for hobby hunting (apologies if you are a subsistence hunter) if it made your country a safer place? If not, why not?

    The question is whether or not that would actually make our country a safer place. No one can quantify the number of crimes that are *prevented* because criminals know that a certain portion of the population is armed at any moment. Law-abiding gun owners are, in a way, a dispersed force of first responders. Without hard data about crimes prevented, there is no rational basis for assuming that the population would be safer as a whole. Given my personal experiences, I certainly feel safer with a personal firearm which we would never use except as a defense.

    The reasons that there is a second amendment are historical and philosophical. As you suspect, it is tied to individual freedom and the idea that the citizen is not a subject of the government and retains the right to individual self-defense. The practical questions surrounding gun surrender and/or confiscation here are nearly insurmountable even if the philosophical/Constitutional barriers were overcome. It is part of American culture which is centered on the individual, for better or worse.

    So, as a practical matter, to remove guns from law-abiding citizens would only increase the number of soft targets for criminals who would have guns in any case unless we could somehow sequester every gun within our boundaries *and* prevent any guns from entering the country. At this point, even advocates of gun surrender/confiscation are at a loss to describe how that could work with any specificity. Most people agree, I think, in principle with excluding people with mental illnesses from acquiring guns, but then it gets sticky trying to define that class. We can’t even agree on what to do about the mentally ill who are dangerous to themselves and others.

    That was long, but I hope it helps to explain why things are the way they are over here. Who was it who said we are two peoples separated by a common language? Or something like that.

  206. @ Gram3:
    I don’t think this can all be true. When do you ever hear or read about spree killings in the UK? Or murderers with guns? (The latter does happen sometimes, but so very seldom compared to our country…)

    We still live and act like this is the Wild West, and people die as a result. Lots oc them, including today’s victims (see news). The buck has to stop being passed, and ASAP.

  207. @ Gram3:
    I do not understand how owning guns makes us “free.” Never have, never will.

    As for the kinds of guns available, if assault weapon sales were banned,we would be safer. They are made to doone thin: k7ll as many human beings possible as quickly as possible.

    I am from a family that has hunters i it, and i don’t believe responsible hunters are the issue. We maybe horrified by Afghan warlords who make sure that they’re seen in public with as much high-tech weaponry as possible, but the truth is, our attitude toward firearms, on the whole, is little different. Why people believe so strongly in the right to keep and bear arms, over and above all the rest of the rights addressed in our founding documents, is beyond me.

  208. @ Beakerj:
    Banning the sale of assault weapons in this country would be a huge 1st step… it’s not responsible hunters who are the problem. You have to reload a .22 after firing a shot; someone on a spree is not going to use a .22, they do, however, use assault weapons, which are miltary combat weapons.

  209. @ Gram3:
    It isn’t 1775 anymore, though, and none of us are living on the frontier. (Of course, the colonists did take this continent from its native inhabitants by force…)

  210. numo wrote:

    We maybe horrified by Afghan warlords who make sure that they’re seen in public with as much high-tech weaponry as possible, but the truth is, our attitude toward firearms, on the whole, is little different. Why people believe so strongly in the right to keep and bear arms, over and above all the rest of the rights addressed in our founding documents, is beyond me.

    Numo, we are straying OT, but if you want to continue we can on the ODP. Briefly, neither of these statements is true of the people I know who own firearms. They do not desire to intimidate people into submission or to murder innocents but rather to protect themselves and their families. Some of them are sportsmen. The firearm owners I know value *all* of the rights granted to us and enumerated in the Constitution. I think I did not state my reply to Beaker in the right way. My intent was to give insight into the culture of gun ownership *and* the culture of individualism in America which many of my friends from overseas find difficult to understand, if not totally incomprehensible. That is because neither aspect is part of their history or their culture, at least in their lifetime. And, as we know, American culture is not monolithic, either, on this issue or many others.

    My main interest is in the mentally ill and how we do and do not treat them and keep them from harming themselves and others. And my other primary concern, honestly, is the Christians who *are* being persecuted for naming the name of Christ and what we should do about that. I don’t have knowledge in mental health issues like Beaker or some others, so I am really curious.

  211. @ numo:
    Numes, I completely agree with this – it is beyond my ability to comprehend why it has ever been legal to sell assault weapons to the general public in your country. How that ever happened is a total mystery to me, on what grounds was this ever allowed? Does the right to bear arms mean all arms, all the time? I completely agree with what you say about hunting rifles/hunters in general, unless they are using guns which could shoot a rhino to shoot deer. It is just overkill, so much of the time, when I see anything to do with an American civilian & a gun.

  212. @ Gram3:
    And Gram, I totally understand why ordinary Americans feel they need to have a fire arm to protect themselves, as anyone who wants to harm you or your property is likely to come armed. It’s like guns breed guns though. And the almost spiritual, worshipful reverence & love some have for their weapons is beyond me. I’m so glad to live in a back water where Police would have to call in an Armed Response Unit to assist if they needed that kind of force. Last arms I saw were on Police in central London on election day.

  213. @ Beakerj:
    How that ever happened is a total mystery to me

    Me too.

    Does the right to bear arms mean all arms, all the time?

    A lot of people think this is how it should be, especially the open-carry advocates. They scare me.

    As for hunting deer with big game guns, only fools would do that. (And there definitely *are* more than a few out there.) Unfortunately, the deer population in my state tends to grow disproportionately, and in the winter, there can be very little browse available. So… sell hunting licenses for the (time-limited, very short) deer season, or allow a lot of them to starve. Not a pleasant prospect, but it does happen. However, we do have new predators here – coywolves, coyote-wolf hybrids. We may be the apex predator coming in from outside their habitat, but the coywolves are now the #1 wild apex predators. I don’t know what kind of things will result, given time.

  214. @ Beakerj:
    @ Beakerj:
    I did not state my response to you very well, so my apologies. What are your thoughts on care and/or confinement of the dangerously mentally ill? I’m at a loss there. To be honest, it used to be out of sight, out of mind, but churches I attended actually had ministries in certain situations. What can we do? Why are kids so alienated? Any insight is appreciated.

  215. numo wrote:

    Does the right to bear arms mean all arms, all the time?
    A lot of people think this is how it should be, especially the open-carry advocates. They scare me.

    It’s the concealed carry folks you need to worry about. At least with open carry, you know who has the guns.

    I am a supporter of the Constitution. which does indeed have a 2nd amendment providing the right to bear arms. The same Constitution has a mechanism to change it, so if you feel strongly enough, you can get the 2nd amendment repealed with a simple three-fourths of the states and two-thirds vote of both houses of congress.

  216. ….seriously….why are there so many ‘headless’ insulting ‘christians’ on this website? some one died or more like ten people died and others injured…and it ‘wasn’t ‘persecution’ have you ever considered that you only promote a ‘social activist’ style of gospel and NOT the actual gospel.

    John McArthur (another mocked preacher by the foolish loon bugs if you will on this website) points out that the social gospel is NOT the actual gospel. a way to check if you are a ‘social gospel proposer and not a true follower is to see if you would be willing to eat a racoon for dinner tomorrow….. oh wait…. the natives were socially inappropriate in their thirteen-year old brides to aged men marriages…. highly socially inappropriate….but the socially ‘appropriate’ culture braggards of european superiority and royalty….

    some preachers you frequently ‘mock’ actually look like saints the more you mock them http://www.gty.org/blog/B151009

  217. @ call a ginger:

    I am no “social activist” and I believe in proclaiming the full gospel. That being said, this article is dealing with a specific hypothetical question.

    The Deebs will most likely respond and tell you the purpose of this website. If you have something to add to the conversation, great. If not, there are plenty of Neo-Calvinist websites you can troll.

  218. call a ginger wrote:

    have you ever considered that you only promote a ‘social activist’ style of gospel and NOT the actual gospel.

    I, for one, do not promote a social activist gospel. AFAIK, I am as conservative as the day is long except for GenderRoles which, as I have labored to demonstrate, are not conservative in the least but are “social activist” to their core. I do not think that reverse-engineering the Bible so that it says what I or anyone else wants it to say is conservative, and that’s what they do. And that offense against conservative hermeneutics is committed by John MacArthur himself, though he has lots of company among “conservatives.”

  219. @ call a ginger:
    Would you please be specific when you make a claim. How are we promoting a social activist gospel? When you appear on a blog, calling people names, you’d better have some proof of what you say. I believe, in this instance, you are wrong when it comes to many of us, including your blog hosts.

    Perhaps you are taught in your church to insult without example. However, it is against the “gospel” that you proclaim to do so.

    This blog exists so that people can intelligently discuss their thoughts. I would hope that you might like to join in on the discussion as opposed to calling people silly names and making unsubstantiated claims.

    Finally, anyone can discuss things on this blog. That means nonbelievers as well. I would ask that you keep that in mind as you apply your godly insults.

  220. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Beakerj:
    @ Beakerj:
    I did not state my response to you very well, so my apologies. What are your thoughts on care and/or confinement of the dangerously mentally ill? I’m at a loss there. To be honest, it used to be out of sight, out of mind, but churches I attended actually had ministries in certain situations. What can we do? Why are kids so alienated? Any insight is appreciated.

    Oh Gram I have so many thoughts about this I don’t know where to start. The plight of the seriously mentally ill is one that needs a lot more care & thought than it seems to be given – we simply must be prepared to do what is needed to keep those seriously unwell safe, as well as those around them. There were many abuses of previous inpatient/asylum type set-ups, yet unless a family can manage a seriously ill family member what else is suitable? Small therapeutic communities with medical/therapeutic staff with real clout is the way I’d love to see things go. I think serious mental illness is to live through hell on earth, & to care for sufferers as real valuable individuals has to be the basis for their care. And most of them, like most of us, would rather die or be sectioned than hurt others when not in their right minds – locally to us a friend’s former employee went off his meds & killed his best friend & himself. To say it caused shock amongst those who knew him is an understatement, & he was described as an absolutely lovely gentle guy, when well.
    And as to why kids are so alienated? Again, so many thoughts. I think it’s be instructive to look at many individuals, & why they were alienated, & see what themes arise, but the meta-themes I see are a mix of toxic circumstances plus the potency of adolescence plus lack of significant attachments. I think the person who gave great insight into this was Marilyn Manson, after Columbine. His essay is here:
    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/columbine-whose-fault-is-it-19990624

    & I think that the greatest insight that he had was in his interview with Michael Moore who asked him what he’d say to the Columbine Killers & he replied’ I wouldn’t say a single word to them. I would listen to what they have to say and that’s what no-one did’.

  221. @ dee:

    apparently rick warren and his ‘social activist’ style gospel ended up killing his own son…. in a judas iscariot without murdering another…style fashion. his son….was ….on ….pharmacy drugs….

    yes…. I am thankful when websites or churches or good schools actually warn about the molestors, the men who find ‘ashley madison’ appealing, yhe men who secretly support ISIS…. (rrr um wait….we haven’t refered to the popes problems yet…the trail that led to isis uprising… )…. and so on in the church….. but quite frankly…. it takes serious study of cultures and history as well as a heart to want to love GOD and ‘the word’ to get the gospel. ‘social activism’ is what gives supreme court power to allow homosexuals to confiscate the home of christians who will not bake a cake for their ‘ceremony’….’social gospel’ is what labels the ‘insane’ people like martin luther was as ‘insane’ because he believed that schools need to have the bible in them, or they are not worthy to be called schools……..and he really wasn’t insane….or perfect………he was a man….. who had flaws…. but knew truth came from scripture.

    Christ said it best when referring to the lasciviousness of human heart….. those vipers….those snakes…. avoid them….don’t trust them….yes, there are ‘dune bugs’ on your website who frequently mock the scripture….. ‘all men are liars’….

  222. @ Beakerj:
    Thank you, Beaker. Do you know of any place where your concept of care has been implemented successfully? If so, how was that accomplished and what would be the first steps? Some efforts were made here to have community-based housing for the mentally ill who needed support, but honestly I have not followed how that worked out. A family member has a neighbor who began manifesting bipolar behaviors which totally changed his personality. That is my only experience with mental illness, but it gave me a window into the multiple layers of difficulty. Thanks for what you do to help the kids who are vulnerable.

  223. dee invited “call a ginger” to

    … please be specific when you make a claim.

    My initial hypothesis is that you are likely to get nowhere with this request. The handful of comments left by “call a ginger” (an anagram of “gall in grace”, for one thing!) are peppered with meaningless punctuation and contain sentences with little internal syntax, let alone contributing semantically to a meaningful whole. Also, the spurious reference to the read herring of “Judas Iscariot” is repeated across comments without conveying any meaning. This in particular is highly suggestive.

    In other words: “call a ginger” is neither an honest commenter nor a dishonest commenter; it is a chatbot.

    (For any new readers: chatbots crop up from time to time on any blog with a large number of hits such as this one. A chatbot is a computer program analogous to a search engine. It scans comment threads and inserts comments designed to mimic comments written by a human. It then continues to scan the same comment thread looking for replies to its comment, and posts a “reply”. The writer of the chatbot may, or may not, be following its progress; this is usually part of a crude Turing Test or some other experiment related to low-level artificial intelligence. See, for instance, wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatbot.)

  224. So I want to come at this from a different angle. Assuming that he was indeed targeting Christians: Why?
    I doubt it was simply that he got up on morning, mentally ill thinking that Christians were evil and needed to be put down.
    There certainly are a lot of people in the culture who like to put down Christians. Were there people in his school (perhaps teachers?) who were saying awful things bout Christians? Was he brought up that way? Did a local Christian church persecute him? (We know that happens).
    Why? The answer to that question may help actually answer the question: Is this an example of religious persecution. Because *even if he is mentally ill* it is important to know why this was his outlet.
    Certainly the news media is treating this very differently than if he asked the question “are you gay?” or “are you Muslim?” – which many of them refusing to even mention the issue at all.

  225. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In other words: “call a ginger” is neither an honest commenter nor a dishonest commenter; it is a chatbot.

    Or Merlin’s been practicing the Curse of Babel again.

  226. @ Gram3:
    I don’t Gram, but I was thinking of the L’Arche communities (disabled & SEN individuals) & that this model must be being tried somewhere as it would seem an obvious thing to try – if funding & proper care can be found.

  227. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    typical of a mockers response to ‘truth’…… ‘all men are liars’….. even mathamatical atheism can sense this….issue with ‘men’

  228. The subject line….came from a article about giving ‘iud’s’ through public school…… for TEN YEAR OLD’s….. without parental permission…..she was in favor of young girls making such ‘choices’….

  229. Hmm. This is a tough one.

    I want to interject, though. Mentally ill doesn’t not mean:

    1) He doesn’t know what a Christian is
    2) He didn’t know what he was doing was morally wrong

    You can have a mental illness and still be guilty of a crime. And perfectly aware of certain things.

    That is why, when using the insanity defense, you can’t scrape by simply by arguing that he had Aspberger’s or depression. Either he didn’t know what he was doing at the time, or he didn’t understand that it was wrong.

    We don’t know either in this case, and considering the premeditated nature, I’d argue he is morally culpable. Disturbed does not take away from that.

    Also, it annoys me that people associate Aspberger’s with mental illness (it isn’! it’s a disability, not a mental illness), and that mental illness = violence. In fact, the mentally ill are more likely to have violence commited against them.

    To that I’d add, because I am Christian I am wary of the pathologization of evil. If we treat every evil as a symptom of a disease, we view it as something that is somehow not a choice– but oftentimes, it is.

    As to the question of saying yes or no– honestly I would not judge anyone who said no. I do think there are times when it is acceptable to say no– if you can save the lives of others, for example. And if you have denied Jesus, like you, I’ve thought about Peter, and how he became a martyr later. There is always redemption in Jesus!

    But, that said… I wouldn’t then turn around and viewed those who said ‘yes’ as being imprudent, either. Even if he was crazy– they didn’t know that. Even if was him asking– they probably knew then, more than they knew about his mental state– that what happened would be known all of the world.

    Like it or not, this story went international, and the outcome is being reported (factually or not, we don’t know).

    To be honest– that would be going through my mind. The world would know– would i deny my faith and live, or would I say yes?

    I lean on saying yes…

    I also make less of a distinction between governmental (“official”) persecution, and something else. I am the first one to roll my eyes sometimes when I hear American evangelicals go on and on about the secular world “persecuting” them– I’ve seen true persecution abroad, and sometimes I find it annoying.

    But culturally I believe in some ways we are under attack, just not the ways that are often talked about from the pulpit.

    I’ve heard more and more talk at work, and other places, about how Christians should “just go away” and there has certainly been a lot of blaming for whenever

  230. Clicked post by accident, before I was finished. 🙂

    …whenever a certain political problem du jour comes up. And I think the toxic parts of our American Christian culture are the blame for the sidelining, but I do feel it.

    Anyway, the persecution we face may not look the same as it did in the early church. I don’t think just because it’s not institutional doesn’t mean it isn’t real.

    al-Daesh is not an official state or institution, but I think you’d be hard pressed to make a good case that those who have been executed should’ve denied their Christian faith; that they were not martryrs.

    tl:dr; it’s not not persecution just because it’s singular, or more modern.

    That is to say, I’m not sure it’s persecution at all. It’s all conjecture. But I can’t agree that simply because it’s not like it was in Rome, that it doesn’t qualify.